from J. Thoyer, who entered the service of the Table Bay Harbour Board in 1880, and whose total periods of service amount to over 23 years, praying for the condonation of certain breaks in his service and for a pension, or for other relief.

from Annie O. Edwards, of Pietermaritzburg, who when a teacher in a farm-house school in Natal forfeited her pension rights through failing to register her name in accordance with the provisions of Act No. 31 of 1910 (Natal), praying for consideration and relief.

from F. Thomas, a lance-corporal in the police service, Johannesburg, praying for the condonation of a break in his service, or for other relief.

from C. Gaskell, widow of J. H. Gaskell, who served as gardener on the Joint Parliamentary establishments of the Cape of Good Hope and the Union from 1903 until his death in 1912, praying for consideration of her case and relief.

from B. D. Greyling, of Tarkastad, who was awarded a pension by the Imperial Government in consequence of the wounds and injuries he received during the late war, praying for the capitalisation of the said pension, or for other relief.

from J. Lampert, of Johannesburg, formerly a locksmith, who, while proceeding through the Market Square, Johannesburg, during the tram strike, 1911, was permanently injured by a police officer, and is now unable to follow his trade, praying that the House may take his case into consideration and grant him relief.

Second Report Public Debt Commissioners, year ended 31st March, 1912.

asked when the Minister would lay the report of the Public Service Commission on the Table.

I am sorry, but I am not the Minister responsible. It is the Minister of the Interior.

Perhaps the Minister of the Interior may give the information.

was inaudible.

said that he desired, a little time ago, to ask a question of a Minister, and he had then been ruled out of order.

I may point out that what the hon. member has asked is not a point of order.

Yes, sir, but—

The hon. member must resume his seat. (Cheers.)

made a remark which was inaudible.

I may point out for the information of the hon. member that a question affecting the business of the House can be asked of a Minister before business is proceeded with, but the other day the hon. member wanted to put a question which had nothing to do with the business of the House.

made another remark which could not be heard.

I have given the information to the hon. member, so that the hon. member can guide his conduct in future accordingly. (Laughter.)

moved that the reports of the Select Committees of the House of Assembly of the Cape of Good Hope on Carnarvon Commonage, 1905, and Carnarvon Outer Commonage, 1909, be laid upon the Table.

seconded.

Agreed to.

stated that the reports were laid on the Table.

then moved.

That the reports be referred to the Select Committee on Carnarvon Outer Commonage Settlement Bill.

seconded.

Agreed to.

continuing the debate, dealing with the remarks made by the hon. member for Waterberg (Mr. Nicholson), said that it looked almost as if the hon. member had tried to get in, by the thin end of the wedge, that monstrosity—the Report of the Trades and Industries Commission. The hon. member had referred to Canada, but had forgotten to tell them that Sir John McDonald, the leader in Protectionist circles in Canada, had said that in Canada Protection had no economic justification, but that it was purely political. With regard to the new religion, Protection, in no country in the world had it been adopted as a sound economic policy. Australia, to which references might be made later, in 1909 had produced £174,509,000 of wealth, but 80 per cent. of the entire amount had been produced by unprotected industries, and there were ugly facts associated even with that marvellously productive country. There was a large amount of loan money, expended, the labour of women and girls had been increased by no less than ten per cent. in ten years, and Parliament spent no less than £190,000 annually, according to the figures in the last Budget speech. It had proved that the new fiscal policy did not help them in the slightest degree in regard to evils of the present day. In Massachusetts 27 to 29 per cent. of the available workers were generally unemployed. From 1846 to 1861, when Protection had been abandoned in that country, it had been such a success as had never been equalled before, or approached since. In proportion as the protective policy had been increased wages had been decreased, slums had been enlarged, and poverty had been increased. He knew that there were cities in Canada, but she also had her slums as well, and although they heard of her prosperity, they never heard of the other side. While they looked at the bright face he was sure that it was not wise to forget the other side, which was more sad than the other was grand. There was Germany, which, was Protectionist in another sense. The hon. member asked whether Protection there had abolished poverty or added to the health of the people. In 1911 Berlin alone, he said, had 1,021,494 homeless people, and the Municipal Council had had to vote £12,000 extra to meet the wants of the poor people in that city, and had to build 600 extra huts in order to find shelter for these people. In Germany, since 1905, female labour had increased by 33 and one-third per cent., for one reason: that expenses might be cut down. Infant mortality in towns of Germany was just five times that of similar towns in Great Britain. So much for social life. The number of illegitimate births in Germany was the largest in Europe, and unemployment was always greater in proportion than in Great Britain. There was Holland, a Free Trade country; and he had been informed that it was almost impossible to find an idle man in that little country, and it had been much more prosperous than any Protectionist country in any part of the World. He regarded the colour question as a bogey, which really had nothing to do with the question before the House. The question was a very serious one, and he sincerely regretted that the right hon. the member for Victoria West should be so active in his very ill-directed and ill-founded gibes.

Last year he (Mr. Haggar) pleaded for local work to be kept for local people. Had that been done? To a certain extent, but not nearly to the extent to which it ought to be done. A large contract for Posts and Telegraphs clothing was sent to England. Had that contract been fulfilled? If so, there were some very funny things going on. He wanted to know if new tenders had been issued quite recently for a very large quantity of clothing These tenders had been called for locally and he presumed called for in England. Proceeding, Mr. Haggar dealt with the possibility of employing white labour on the cutting of the sugar cane in Natal. Under the present system of industry, he declared, we should always have unemployment. Why? Because not only was it the necessary outcome of the present system, but it was absolutely essential to the maintenance of the present system (Hear, hear.) On the one hand we had a demand for more labour and on the other we had men who could get no work to do.

Proceeding, the hon. member said he was in the heartiest agreement with the hon. member who said it was a world’s problem. If that were so, then let them take an example from those parts of the world that had settled it—Denmark, Russia, Belgium, and others. If they made up their minds to settle it they could do so. They would have no more sentiment or squabbling, and the House would act irrespective of party considerations. If they had the power and the knowledge, and, some of them, the experience, as they should all have the will, they would settle it to-day. It was said they had no money; but there was money enough for sentiment. Still, there was no money for those who needed it. If the Government raised a loan of a million pounds at three per cent., before it was repaid it would have cost them another million. Let them do what Guernsey did when it wanted a sea wall. The Municipality of Guernsey issued notes to the extent of £80,000 pounds, and they were redeemable in a stated time. Long before the time came they were redeemed. One hon. member said: “Give us something constructive.” Yesterday he found an outline of an Australian scheme in a paper. There were ten men. They obtained a grant of ground, built ten three-roomed cottages for £30 each, bought ten cows for £3 each. 200 good fowls at 2s. 6d. a time, and spent money on stores and food, altogether an amount of £430. Everything was bought on credit; but they started a successful farm by intensive cultivation. If they adopted a similar scheme under a man who understood intensive cultivation and dairy farming, and gave him a chance, before another year was out that Parliament would be proud of them. But what were the suggestions that had been made? No man had commenced at the root-evil. First they had the motion of the hon. member for Pretoria, East, and the gist was that unemployment was an evil and a danger, and it was their duty to meet it, He said: “Let us do something.” In direct opposition to his own dictum he said last year there was no sincerity in politics. He (Mr. Haggar) believed he was sincere when he said something must be done. Then came the hon. member for Jeppe. He said: “Roll away the stone, put up barriers where barriers ought to be, and protect the white man.”

Let them look at the little Colony of Natal. There they had anything from 130,000 to 180,000 indentured Indians and their dependents. That system was productive of an enormous number of paupers and parasites. Their boys would not work. Then what was to become of their white boys? Then the right hon. member for Victoria West said: “We will do something.” The hon. member for Jeppe said: “ Yes, let us keep out the evil when we can keep it out, and protect where we ought to protect.” Well, that helped the problem, but it did not solve it. Concluding, the hon. member said he believed that if the Government would start on the lines of getting respectable would-be industrial men together and starting agricultural and industrial settlements they would at least be going in the right direction. As a further amendment, to follow the amendment of the hon. member for Jeppe, he moved to add: (3) The Government be requested to take into consideration at an early date the advisability of establishing agricultural co-operative village settlements under Government supervision and control.

seconded the amendment to Mr. Creswell’s amendment.

said he would not discuss the question raised by the hon. member who last spoke as to whether this little problem could be settled by paper money or not. Speaking for himself, but not his colleagues, he had never known paper money to solve this very difficult question. It was a question that affected the future of the European and native races in South Africa. Needless to say, it was a question which would only be settled with the greatest difficulty. And ever since he could remember taking a part in public life, this matter had been, in some phase or another, under consideration. (Hear, hear.) He remembered shortly after he first entered Parliament that the question of introducing natives from outside the Union was discussed in Parliament, and he then heard a gentleman who was perhaps the most consistent and the ablest advocate for a liberal treatment towards the native. He heard him most strongly oppose such a proposal. He realised the effect it would have upon the European population, and he made a speech which, if he (the hon. Minister) remembered rightly, convinced the majority of them that it was inadvisable to import native labour from outside this country. (Hear, hear.) Since Union he (the hon. Minister) thought, every session they had had the matter come up for discussion, and within the last few years they had had a little Commission which had gone into the matter. The Mining Industry Commission also dealt with the question, as did also the Trades and Industries Commission, and they also had the advantage of the speeches made at the Unionist Congress last year. He read what passed at that celebrated Congress, and the speeches seemed to be made more with a view to bamboozling the voters than with a view to arriving at the solution of the question. The issue out of all that speech making was the motion of the hon. member for Pretoria, East. His (Mr. Sauer’s) experience had been that Commissions were not infrequently used to give burial to a vexed question. (Hear, hear.) He did not know whether this was another instance of that kind. (An HON. MEMBER: No.) As to the amendment of his hon. friend (Mr. Merriman) to refer the matter to a Select Committee, he (Mr. Sauer) did not know what further evidence there was to collect, but he thought a good purpose would be served if they collected all the information and made some suggestions, and it was on that account that he thought the most preferable course was to accept the amendment of the right hon. member for Victoria West.

Various suggestions had been made to attain the object which they had in view, one being that the Government should employ white labour. That, to a very large extent, had been done by Government. It had been said that Government employed white men at 3s. 6d. a day; but they began at 3s. 6d., and that rate lasted only for one month. Automatic increases had been given, and after thirteen months, the wage paid was 5s. a day. In addition to that, house accommodation was given, as well as medicine to the labourer and his wife and family, and the man had other privileges, travelling and so on. Besides that, schools were established at the large centres, and the men were given an opportunity to have some instruction in the three R’s, and to know something of the business that was required of them. All that was done at the expense of the State. It was taken advantage of to a very great extent, and provision was made that these men, the majority of whom were Dutch, should be able to acquire some knowledge of English. Representations were made that some Englishmen similarly situated wished to learn Dutch, and arrangements were made accordingly. Then, if the men passed a certain examination, they got promotion. On November 30 last the number who were working on these conditions, and whose average pay was always over 4s. a day, was 3,600, besides 1,275 engaged on construction work, and just under 100 who were employed at the Docks and the Harbour, making altogether 5,000 able-bodied white men who would be taken, he would not say from idleness, but from destitution, and with their families, the probable number would be 10,000 to 15,000. Arrangements were made that if these people showed themselves efficient, they should get promotion. In December last 544 of these men were promoted, and their wages now averaged from 6s. to 11s. a day. (Cheers.) The sum of £75,000 was spent on finding them accommodation. He believed more had been spent since, and if it were desired to carry out this policy altogether, something like £200,000 more would be required. When he came to be Minister of Railways, he found these men were living in huts and hovels which were positively disgraceful, and not good enough for a decent coloured man to live in. In his opinion, that £200,000 would be very well spent, because it would mean that so many more white men would be employed in manual labour.

While this was being done, there were endless abuse and misrepresentations from his hon. friends at the end of the room. (Cheers.) But abuse never did anyone any harm. Abuse had done the hon. member for Smithfield (General Hertzog) more good than all the praise he had had. Hon. members in season and out of season misrepresented when they said that Government was employing men at 3s. or 3s. 6d. a day. That was not true. The Labour Party was not alone—in fact, one could almost forgive them, because they had a desire to serve those they believed they represented. But what about the gentlemen who sat opposite? (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Pretoria, East, in season and out of season, in language very eloquent, denounced the neglect of the Government for employing men at 3s. 6d. a day.

Never once in my life.

The hon. member for Yeoville (Sir L. Phillips) persistently abused me.

I didn’t.

Your Press did. The hon. member has only to hold up his finger. Why didn’t the hon. gentleman employ them at a higher rate on the gold mines? Continuing, Mr. Sauer said that for purely political purposes, the Government was assailed and abused. He had often asked why did not the mines employ more white men? The other day a deputation from Johannesburg suggested to him that the farmer should employ more white men, but he asked why the mines did not do so, and he was at once assailed. The fact was that the proportion of whites to blacks employed on the mines was less now than it was two years ago. We were continually told that the whole economic welfare of South Africa was dependent on the mines. He would be the last to undervalue the importance of the mines in that respect, but he did not think anyone could be blind to the fact that the mines were doing very well, and that they sent millions away in dividends, notwithstanding the watering of capital that had taken place. Proceeding, he said he did not believe that everything in South Africa should be subordinated to the mines if it was a question of the Chinese or the working of the mines, he would rather say the Chinese they could not have. But he did not think that the mines would have to shut down on that account.

If the Government could get their work done for 3s. or 3s. 6d. a day, he wanted to know why the mines could not get men to work for that. If the Government were able to do this, why were the mines not able to do likewise? Was it that they were afraid of the vote? Was that it? The Government were able to get men to work for this amount per day, and if they could give accommodation in every case they could get double. He knew the difficulties that attended the employment of white men as manual labourers, but the Government, to a great extent, had succeeded, and although he did not think that the mines could pay the wages asked for by hon. members on the cross benches, still be believed that they could pay them a living wage, and leave ample dividends for their shareholders. He had been going into the question of what white labourers were paid on the mines, and, if they were paid the wages that these hon. gentlemen demanded, it would be impossible for any industrial enterprise to pay its way. The great difficulty in this country in dealing with this question was the aversion that white people had to doing any manual labour. Another difficulty was the cheapness of black labour. The wages asked by the representative of the Labour Party for white labourers on the mines were exorbitant.

What are they?

I will not quote figures. Continuing, he said take what was paid to the railway artisans for skilled labour. These wages were just as high as this country could bear, and he doubted very much if they insisted upon higher wages being paid whether the railways could run at all. He had been asked what was a living wage. Well, hon. members on the cross benches were not quite agreed upon that, but according to them it was something very much higher than any enterprise could pay in this country. The real difficulty in this country was the cheapness of native labour. In his opinion the more natives they brought into the country the more they would extend the difficulties of the country, and therefore the more difficult they made it for a man to find employment. He had shown what had been done by the Government in finding employment for white men who were practically destitute. Now, as to what had been done to encourage white labour from outside, the Government had not stopped any natives from coming into the Union, upon agreements made prior to Union, but they resisted several attempts that were proposed to bring natives from Liberia and Zanzibar, and from other parts. Quite recently an attempt was made to introduce natives from British East Africa, but in that case, as in previous instances, the Government had refused to agree to it. They had sufficient difficulties and responsibilities with the natives already in South Africa, and they did not want more. He hoped that before long they would be content with the natives within the Union to do the work of the Union.

Hear, hear.

His friend the hon. member for Jeppe had said hear hear. Personally, he did not want to wake up one morning and find a ukase that no natives were to be used at all. The principle should be established that we had sufficient coloured or native people within the Union to do all the manual labour. So long as they had different colours and races in the country so long would they be faced with a very serious and difficult problem. At one time it was suggested that the Afrikander Bond was the reason why white people were not attracted to this country, but the real reason was because they had so much black labour and the high cost of living, and between these two, South Africa was not an attractive place for white people who could only do manual work. In South Africa a white man did not care to do manual work himself, he wanted to be an overseer, but there was no doubt that anybody who examined South African matters very closely noticed that there was a change. Just before he came down to Cape Town he saw some white men of the bywoner class at Pretoria—some of them were advanced in years—working with pick and spade, and he sympathised with them. (An HON. MEMBER: Why?) Because they were not accustomed to do that sort of work, and he felt very much inclined to take off his hat and shake them by the hand. Years ago he doubted whether they could have got men to do the manual work that they were doing today, and the number employed was increasing. This question of the importation of other labour into South Africa was very far-reaching. He hoped that his hon. friend would have let it stand over for consideration afterwards. He believed that they would see the change which had happened in the Southern States of America come about to a large extent here. There was one thing that it was necessary to do in this country, and that was that the white child should get education, and education of the right sort. When they heard talk about building Dreadnoughts while we had 20,000 to 30,000 white children in this country receiving no education on the ground that we had not the means of providing it, he did not know what was to be the future of this country. (Hear, hear.) He hoped that the time was not far distant when they would establish a principle as regarded the importation of natives from outside, and he believed if the people who were the mouthpiece of the Labour men were to moderate their wishes or the aspirations of the class they represented, and talk less and not so often through their hats—(laughter)—and say that the men of this country could not live on a wage that was less than £1 a day— he believed if that were once recognised it would be found that a large number of white people in this country would be prepared to work, without inviting coloured people in from outside. He hoped the amendment of his hon. friend would be accepted. (Hear, hear.)

said that this was one of the most important questions, if not the most important question, they had had before them this session. Several proposals had been brought forward. He rose to support the original motion of his hon. friend (Sir J. P. Fitzpatrick). He was afraid that a Select Committee would not be able to do the work as thoroughly as a Commission. Valuable data had already been collected, and there would be no need for the Commission to travel all round the country. The Transvaal Indigency Commission spent two years doing its work, and travelled all over the four Provinces. The conclusions at which they arrived had been set forth, and he thought would well repay perusal. He signed the report, it was true, but he wished to say that the credit for its production belonged to one of the very able young men whom they had on the Commission. The painful thing was that, although a great deal of money was spent on this Commission, and although they had spent some valuable time on it, nothing whatever had been done by the Government. As regarded the railway policy, the wrong men, he thought, had been blamed by the Minister. He (Mr. Quinn) had said that the districts where these men were employed were not fit for human beings. He agreed with the Minister in reference to the need of education. Nearly 90,000 children in the four Provinces between the ages of five and fourteen were receiving no education whatever.

The Indigency Commission made a few simple suggestions upon which the Government, if they had been anxious, could have done something, but they had done nothing. What was the matter with the Government? They knew that the House was paralysed, suffering from caucus fever, or something of that sort. (Laughter.) The patriots, or some of those whom they were inclined to regard as patriots, where were they now? They seemed to have degenerated into mere place-seekers. It seemed to him that Ministers spent their time making political speeches all over the country, bringing about disaster and trouble. This poor country, which wanted active legislation and was crying out for legislation, was getting none, and the whole country was looking on at a Parliament which was helpless and useless. (Hear, hear.) One of these days this country would rise up and demand that the people who were blocking the way to useful legislation should be swept back again to the obscurity from which they ought never to have emerged. (Hear, hear.) The Indigency Commission saw things which made them positively sick. Their opinion, however, was this, after most careful examination of the facts and seeing a lot of these things with their own eyes, that everywhere and every time the white man could, if he would, hold his own and more than hold his own. The highest Authority in the world had said that if a man would not work, neither should he eat. A fair chance should be given to every man. He admitted readily that there was not any amount of work to do at £1 a day in this country, but there was a vast amount of work in various parts of it that men could get to do, if they would do it, for a living wage. (Hear, hear.) He had been in this country nearly 30 years, and he had not yet met a white man willing to work who had to go without food and shelter. It was almost impossible for him to imagine any man in Johannesburg starving if he were willing to work.

A man has been found starving on the Wanderers’ ground.

said that these interruptions did not serve any useful purpose. He had certainly seen men hopelessly and helplessly drunk on the Wanderers’ ground. There was any amount of social legislation requiring to be done.

He knew it would be useless for the Government to waste money; but nothing had been done. His contention was that the Government did not do things. They talked too much. And South Africa was simply longing for someone to come along to do some work in the country. (Cheers.) Hon. members were tired of seeing men struggle for place and power. If the Government would only carry out some of the recommendations he had mentioned they would be doing something, and would relieve some of them who were sick to death of nothing being done. (Cheers.) What had been done in the last three weeks in the House? The other House had shut down. Forty men were brought down from all over the country to find no work for them to do. (Cheers.) They had now gone home because there was no work for them. They wanted to put through a Bill that was badly wanted in this country—the Children’s Protection Bill—but they could not because the Minister was not ready for them. What were they doing in this House? They were sitting there playing in their seats. (Cheers.) At the end of three weeks nothing was done. That was the fault he found with the Government: that they did nothing. They seemed to be paralysed. (Cheers.) He supported the proposal for a Commission for the reasons he had given, because he thought a Commission would be much more effective in dealing with this matter than a Select Committee, which would not be sufficiently efficient. (Cheers.)

said he had listened with great interest to the remarks of the previous speaker, especially where he had said that it was written: “Those who refuse to work shall not eat.” When he heard these words he felt that the hon. member did not know the people, and did not understand the people who were really meant to be helped by this resolution. If the hon. member had known them a little better, and if he had looked a little more into their feelings, he would never have spoken these words. He (General Hertzog) had followed the different speakers very closely arid it had struck him how continually, when they came to this one point, this one great obstacle, they had turned away in another direction. The hon. member for Cape Town (Mr. Jagger) had said that the existence of the poor white class must be attributed to the prejudices of the poor whites in South Africa, and that a revolution should be brought about in the minds of the poor whites to make this prejudice disappear. The prejudice, the hon. member had said, was a prejudice against work. Well, all he (General Hertzog) could say in reply to this was that there was very little, if any, truth in that. It was only a small part of the truth. Very few hon. members had felt that in the first place the state of affairs was due to an economic cause, and nothing else. (Labour cheers.) There were only very few individuals who went down and perished as a result of prejudice. (Hear, hear.) And when they saw a large class like the poor whites in South Africa in such a state, then he said emphatically: “No class has ever allowed itself to become martyrs through prejudice.” If one wished to have proof of the fact that this was an economic matter, one need only look around.

The Minister of Justice in his speech had referred to the large number of people who had found employment on the railways. The hon. member for Cape Town had referred to these people as well, and had said they were a proof of how one could get over their prejudice and get them to work. He (General Hertzog) said “ No, it is a proof that as soon as the economic factor in the way of the employment of the whites is removed, the white men will he there.” (Hear, hear.) On the railways the native factor had first of all been removed, and the white men had been given a clean and open field of labour. (Hear, hear.) That was why the employment of whites even at low wages had been a success. The hon. member for Cape Town had said “ the white people have got over their prejudices, and they have at once become good labourers.”

That was not so. They had been able to do so because the field had been cleared for them—(hear, hear)—by the removal of the natives. He was sure that one could go about as much as one liked and look for prejudices everywhere, but unless they here in South Africa could give an opportunity to the white man to work without being troubled by the economic factor created by the vicinity of the native, they could do what they wanted, but they would not get rid of their poor whites. (Cheers.) The other members who had spoken on this subject had continually referred to the presence of the native, and they all had urged that the white man must learn to work.

The hon. member for Cape Town had said that it was possible for the white man to work more cheaply than the native. The hon. member for Pretoria, East (Sir J. P. Fitzpatrick), had referred to the expense he had been put to through having had to employ natives instead of whites. He had said people should understand that white labour was much cheaper. Well, no one would deny that the careful man was always the better man, that he was better than the careless man, and one could say that generally the European was more careful than the native and looked better after the interests of his employer. But he would ask hon. members to ask themselves whether it was true that in all, or in most cases, the labour of the native was more expensive than that of the white man. Let them go on to the farms and take the case of a cattle herd. The farmer would tell one that the reason why he employed a native cattle herd was that he was cheaper than the white man —the native was the cheaper economic factor. And the same would he found to be the case everywhere. One would desire to have the white man the cheaper instrument of labour, but he would ask ail reasonable men in this House if they could say honestly that native labour was dearer than white labour. As regarded the appointment of a Commission, to him it was very clear what road they should follow. As he had abroad indicated, the great factor in the way of the white man was the native, and he would always remain that, because his whole mode of life, his social wants were such that he could always remain a cheaper labourer than the European, and if they wished to extend the field of labour for the white man, then they must do what they had done on the railways; they must lay that down on general principles, and then only would they get the men away from the towns, where they went to the bad. Then they would get the white man at work. Members of the Opposition had expressed their opinion that it was a shame the white man refused to work with the natives, and that they must be persuaded to do so. They could not understand why the whites would not mix with the natives. The reason was obvious. Well, rightly or wrongly, their social conditions brought it with them that there was a great division between the natives and the whites, and the white man refused to work with the native, not because he did not want to do the work done by the native, but because he felt that if he worked alongside the native the unavoidable result would be familiarity, which would extend from the field of labour into his house and bedroom, and he felt instinctively that he might not go to work with the native as if they were equals. That was the reason why the white man would not work with the native. (Hear, hear.) It was clear to him that they had no need to appoint a Commission. Let them have the courage to say once and for all what the problem was, let them say that the native problem was the first problem of the day, and let them tackle it. (Cheers.) Then, and only then, they Would have what the hon. member for Pretoria, East, wanted. And if anything was left then they could see what were the other factors in the way of the employment of whites, if there were any. Concluding, General Hertzog said he had been induced to make these few remarks by the speech of the hon. member for Troyeville (Mr. Quinn), who said the poor whites had themselves to blame for being unable to earn a living. Let them look into the matter with a little more sympathy, and they would see the best way out of the difficulty. (Hear, hear.)

said they were all indebted to the hon. member for Smithfield (General Hertzog) for what he had said, but he (Mr. Duncan) was not prepared to go as far as the hon. member did. The hon. member had somewhat misunderstood the reference made by the hon. member for Troyeville (Mr. Quinn), That reference did not indicate any want of sympathy with these men. He (Mr. Duncan) entirely agreed with the hon. member for Smithfield that the indisposition of white men to take up manual work was not their fault, but was due to economic factors; and that our industrial system was based on what was supposed to be the necessity of having rough work done at rates and under conditions under which white men could not do it. So long as those conditions continued, there was no use looking for prejudices to explain why white men would not work. The white man was not wanted so long as his place could be taken by men who would do the work at a cheaper rate. The fault was with the system, and not with the men. (Hear, hear.). He hoped that the view of the hon. member for Smithfield did not imply that this economic factor prevented the white man from taking his place in the industrial system was one that could not be removed. If that were so, the outlook would be dark. (Hear, hear.) The barrier was that we constantly recruited uncivilised men for work within the Union because they were uncivilised, and because their wants were few. Many of the evils occurred because there were two races living in different stages of civilisation.

The statement of the Minister of Native Affairs was a most important one. What meaning were they to attach to it? The Minister was very careful not to say that the policy of the Government was to stop this influx of cheap coloured labour, but the hon. member spoke as a Minister, and if they were to understand that the view he expressed was that of the Government, it would be a great satisfaction for some of them here. The Minister had remarked that some of the efforts made on the Opposition side were nothing but bamboozling the voter. He (Mr. Duncan) hoped that the Minister’s profession of opinion was something better than bamboozling the voter. (Hear, hear.) He would give the Minister credit for a sincerity which the Minister had not given to the Opposition. They were not all wicked and misleading politicians. Anyone who had heard what the Minister’s friends said at election time about white labour, and compared it with what they said afterwards, would have been tempted to wonder whether there had not been some bamboozling of the voter (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Duncan) was quite satisfied with the assurance they had from the Minister of Native Affairs, who told them that this importation of coloured labour from outside the Union ought to be put an end to. He (Mr. Duncan) welcomed that as a sincere utterance on the part of the Government. Hitherto those who had agitated the matter had been told that it was a purely academic one, and that it was impracticable, because it was incompatible with the present working costs of the mines. Was it not a practicable matter to consider what the people of the country were going to do? Let them remember that this was not merely a mining question. It rested at the root of the whole relation of white and black labour in this country, and whether the white man was to be able to labour under economic conditions, and whether he should take his place as an economic factor. It had been stated that, by extending the field of employment for Europeans, they would be able to establish a reservoir of white labour, but they could not get these conditions as long as labour was dominated, not by civilised men, but by uncivilised men. This matter of getting outside uncivilised labour to work in their industries was one that affected the whole system. It was not a local question, but affected every part.

When they had this matter debated last session, why did hon. members get up and violently oppose it, because they argued that labour would be driven away from the farm? He did not know whether they would draw labour away from the farms or not. What it would do, however, would be that it would establish one labour market in this country whereby natives of the Union and the white men would find their natural sphere and work according to their economic position. Where they had not enough labour, they would get it by bringing in men and women civilised, and who would become good citizens of the country. (Hear, hear.) They were told that this was impossible, because the mines only paid £43 for native labour, and a very much larger amount for white labour. But was that going to be the last word in the matter? When they thought of the future of the country he hardly thought so. Some of his hon. friends on that side of the House said that this motion of excluding native labour was a motion directed against the native himself. On the contrary, it was a movement as much in the interests of the native inhabitants as it was of the white inhabitants. (Hear, hear.) His hon. friend, the member for Tembuland, wanted to try and raise the native standard of living, and this importation of uncivilised labour from outside would be as detrimental to the natives of the Union as it was to the interests of the white. (Labour cheers.) They were told that the mining industry could not continue if this supply of native labour was taken away. They must remember that this was the attitude employers had taken up from the beginning of time towards proposals which would alter existing conditions. It was not necessary to believe that employers were actuated by inhuman motives, or that they were desperate villains, who looked for nothing but gain. He had been reading the other day in a report of a debate in the House of Commons in 1846, upon the proposal to limit the hours of child labour in factories to eleven hours per day, not including meal times. This Bill was received with a storm of protest from manufacturers throughout the country. Men of the highest business integrity and character felt bound to say that it would ruin the industry of the country. Mr. Joseph Hume in a speech asked them to beware how they interfered by legislation to place restrictions upon trade and manufactures, because every mill that was closed increased pauperism and destitution, and endangered the prosperity of the country. Mr. Hume was convinced that such legislation tended to lower wages and throw men out of employment. Continuing, the hon. member for Fordsburg said that he believed this Commission would be of very great service by enquiring into these rumours of disaster, and by enquiring also whether the working costs were at their lowest possible ebb, and whether nothing could be done. Nobody who admitted the gravity of this motion had a right to say that he admitted the principle, but because of the danger of increasing the working cost he thought it should not go further. It might be said that the mining industry would not be able to do without this class of labour, but they wanted to know how much it was likely to be, and, if sacrifice was required, then it should not be by sacrifice in one particular industry, but in all industries. Were the Portuguese Territories going to supply their native labour for ever? He believed that among other drawbacks to this system one was that it was not going to do what it was expected to do. The mining industry in its own interests—if its future was going to be what they were assured it was—would have to find other places to obtain cheap coloured labour, or they would have to get European labour. (Hear, hear.)

This system of cheap coloured labour imported from outside would break down by its own weight, and surely it was better for them to face the situation at once and to get the only solution, that of filling in the gaps by Europeans. He would ask them not solely to consider the working costs and the labour supply of to-day, but also those of the future. The question then before the House was one that had been argued, he thought, in every session of this Union Parliament. (An HON. MEMBER: Ad nauseam.) No. He hoped that no hon. member considered it ad nauseam, for they would have more bitter draughts to follow.

He regarded the motion and the discussions afterwards as extremely valuable. They were particularly valuable at a time like this when there was no important Government business before them. Indeed it would be of great value at any time, and the effect would be seen in the change in public opinion. Mr. Duncan made a remark regarding the Transvaal and the conversion of the Minister of Native Affairs in respect of the importation of foreign labour.

I had nothing to say there. I had no jurisdiction. You and Milner favoured the importation of foreign labour into the Transvaal.

We did favour it, but we were working under embarrassing conditions. He would be perfectly frank, and admit that he was not converted 20 years ago; not even 10 years ago. (Hear, hear.) He thought those debates would continue to go on, and that the figures and divisions had an educative effect on public opinion. For that reason he was perfectly willing to see a Commission sit on the question, because it would give people who had not hitherto had a chance of having the matter brought before their notice, of thinking about the subject. They were told that Commissions were appointed for shelving questions. If there was any prospect of the Government taking a practical step in that direction in the next two years, he would agree to a Commission being appointed, but he did not think that the ideas of the hon. Minister of Native Affairs were so near fruition, and therefore he would say by all means let them have an inquiry into the matter. He did not agree with the appointment of a Select Committee. A Select Committee would sit in one of the rooms above, and would sit only a short time. He did not know how long the Government would allow them to sit there after the Estimates were through, but even if they did find subsequently that there was plenty for them to do, he did not think that a Select Committee would do much in the one line that remained at present—the education of the people. It would produce a report which very few people would read, and would not help matters forward. He thought that the amendment was far more likely to shelve the matter than the motion of the hon. member for Pretoria, East.

What about the amendment of the hon. member for Jeppe?

The amendment of the hon. member for Jeppe expressed views that were sound, but he would ask him not to think that he and those who sat with him were the only ones that had the question seriously at heart. He would have liked this question of the importation of coloured labour to be debated in the House by itself, not because it was going to lead to any practical result. It would, no doubt, be defeated by an enormous majority. He did not regard the motion of the hon. member for Pretoria, East, as hostile to the amendment of the hon. member for Jeppe, because it was going to have the same result. It would have an educative effect, but it would not result in practical action.

They had other matters to consider besides the importation of coloured labour, which hindered the progress of Europeans in this country. That was a very important matter, indeed it was the corner-stone, but it was not all. They had to consider the position of the Europeans and the natives on the land. They had to consider whether something could not be done which would make it easier for Europeans to establish themselves permanently and fruitfully on the land. They had to consider whether something could not be done to make the position of white men who were able to work, easier than it was at present. Someone said something about labour bureaux in this country. (An HON. MEMBER: No use.) He quite agreed that we ought to have labour bureaux which were of use, and the most elementary thing to that end was that the employer of labour should be brought into touch with the people who were seeking work. At present, people put down their names and, generally speaking, they heard nothing further. Another matter which was entitled to serious consideration was the housing of the working people of this country. It was all very well for the hon. Minister to take credit for what he had attained in the housing conditions of the working people. The unskilled labourers were not living under the conditions they ought to, the hon. Minister said it might be done, then let them see it done, not merely the housing of the unskilled labourer, but the housing of the skilled labourer demanded serious consideration. An equally important matter was The question of European education. What had been done already was principally superficial. All those matters lay at the very root of the relations between European and native and coloured labour in this country. He would be very glad to see an enquiry, but what was required was a free labour market, but not one in which men would have to compete against wages on which they could not live. No artificial safeguard would serve, but the present system was an artificial one protected by law and custom, which prevented the white man from being able to hold his own by his own skill. He thought this matter was one which should be freely discussed, and he would be glad if the Minister of Native Affairs would give them the benefit of his experience on this question without those sneers which in party politics were habitual to him. This was the great question before South Africa. It had also to be realised that in this country we had the problem of the development of European standards in a form in which it existed in no other part of the world, as far as he knew. We had this enormous numerical preponderance of the native and coloured population. The European could never establish his permanence by the degradation of the native and coloured people. Whatever efforts were made to make the position of the European in regard to the industrial fabric firmer than it was now must include the elevation of the civilisation of the native and coloured races. He held, as he had always done in this country, that the view put forward by the hon. member for Jeppe was a sound one. At the same time he had no objection to seeing a Commission appointed, and he should support the proposal for the appointment of a Commission. They had got to convince now, not a section of the people, but the whole people. It was not true to say that the opposition to any proposal of this kind came from a small group of capitalists. That was a bogey. The opposition came from the fact that public opinion in South Africa was not yet convinced on the subject. They had got to convince these people. Those who believed that the hon. member’s amendment expressed the true policy had to convince the people of South Africa that it was the right policy, and one that could be adopted without industrial disaster. (Cheers.)

said that he rose to support the motion of the hon. member for Pretoria, East. He did not agree with the wording of the motion altogether, because it did not seem to him to suggest an enquiry into the causes of unemployment, and the remedies to be applied. He sincerely regretted that the hon. member for Jeppe should have taken occasion in this debate to make a long tirade against his political opponents. The hon. member had taken occasion to impute motives to the hon. member who brought forward this motion. He (Mr. Watermeyer) really thought the hon. member for Pretoria, East, was sincere. The hon. member for Jeppe had viewed the question entirely from the position of circumscribing native labour and raising the wages of the white man. With that view he did not agree. He thought we had not reached a stage in this country when the white man could take his part in this country, with any benefit to South Africa, as a wage earner. The time might come, but it was not yet. He wished to analyse some of the causes of the present state of affairs in this country, and what had led to the unemployment and the sinking down of the white into the state of poverty in which they found him. In the days before the discovery of the diamond-fields, the people of this country were pastoral. When the diamond-fields were discovered came land speculation, and people got more money than they knew what to do with. People learned to live beyond the way to which they were accustomed, and they gradually got into the way of living beyond their means, and bankruptcy was to be the inevitable result. That matter would have come to a head years ago, but after the discovery of the diamond-fields, railways began to be built. We began to borrow money. Every man was in a hurry to get rich by speculation and development of the land was neglected. Then came the discovery of the goldfields, and this system got firmly established. Than had been the root cause of the problem they found to-day. Afterwards came the war, and after the war people who had had land found themselves without land, without stock, and with debt, those who had had stock lost it, and poor whites was the result, so that for the last ten years we have had men who had not been able to turn their hand to farming pursuits for the purpose of earning a living. Another factor in the problem had been that lots of land had been sold where land had previously been plentiful, and the area had become circumscribed. Again, they had had the gradual drifting of the coloured labourer into the industrial centres, into the towns, drifting away from the farms, and they found that men had been unable to work their farms. These labourers had gone to the mines or the railways. It stood to reason that this brought about an impossible position in South Africa. Continuing, he said that the war had had also been a great factor in the shift of labourers from the farms. Our native policy enabled the native to earn a wage which permitted him to work only six months in the year and idle the remaining six months, so that we were only having half the labour that was required at the present time. To-day the white man was competing with the native and coloured man living on a lower plane of civilisation, and this was the crux of the matter. He said that they could widen the field of labour for the whites as much as they liked, but while all this competition existed in the country, they would always have a certain number of unemployed. (Hear, hear.) They would never get rid of the prejudice of the whites against working side by side with natives, for the white man felt he lost caste by doing so. And I respect that feeling. It had been argued that they should circumscribe the area from which they drew their labour, but he would remind them that they wanted all the unskilled labour they could get. The country could use all that were here, and as many as could be imported from oversea. He said the real solution lay in the opening up of our markets and closer settlement. He felt they could do a great deal by closer settlement. Development of the land was the sphere of the white man in South Africa. It was the duty of the Government to help those who wished to go on and improve the land. They did not want a hand-to-mouth system. The sphere of the white man was already being encroached on, and he instanced what was happening in the Eastern Province, where coloured men were clubbing together and improving land. They should bar the coloured man, who entered into competition with the white man in this sphere, but did not live up to the same standard. There was room in South Africa for white and coloured. They could not shelve the coloured man. They must improve him; but they must not let the white man go to the wall while they were trying to improve the coloured man It they were not careful they would have a yellow South Africa instead of a white South Africa in the future. There were many poor Whites who were striving to uplift themselves, and he thought that these people should be encouraged.

said that when hon. members on his side of the House brought forward anything, the gentlemen on the Labour benches treated them with contumely. They had never had one illuminating thought or one charitable suggestion from the Labour benches. He protested when those hon. gentlemen sought to convince the House that they represented the working population of South Africa He considered that if these workmen had not been led away by hon. gentlemen who called themselves their leaders, they would have had a com tented working-class population living under better conditions than those that obtained in any other country in the world. Supposing for one moment the proposal of the hon. member for Fordsburg could be brought into operation. Supposing they could bring here a large number of unskilled and semi-skilled workmen, what market had they for them today?

The workmen in this country did not want these white men to come here. They could not absorb the unskilled white men in the country now in the ordinary pursuits of life. Proceeding, the hon. member quoted the statement of a Johannesburg Town Councillor, who said he considered it his duty to point out that the white labour policy of the Council was economically unsound, and, as a consequence, the ratepayers were not getting value for their money. That went to show, he said, that whatever scope those men may have on the land they had not very much in the town, besides which they had the native there. As the hon. member for Cape Town said, it was the economic factor with which they had to contend. He was here for all time. They had got to treat him as a child, and could not force him. If they wanted to extend the resources of the white labour in this country in the railway they had a great nationalised scheme, and it provided a chance of employing a great many more white men than it did to-day. He had been amused when the hon. Minister of Justice claimed that this Government had done anything by giving white men labour on the railway. It was the old Transvaal Government that found these men work on the railway, though since then he believed their position had been improved. He thought, however, to take one instance, that they reasonably have a larger number of white trolley drivers in Johannesburg. In the goods sheds they had scope for lots of white men, and the same in the carriage cleaning department. There was another great nationalised institution, their gaols. No Kafir, in his opinion, should be a policeman. Under certain conditions a Kafir was one of the best and most honest of men, but he believed there was something in him that did not tend to make him a good policeman. He was frequently a very bad one He (the hon. member) admitted that on the mines it was probable they could employ more white men, and he believed the mine-owners were willing to employ them; but, after all, when they dealt with this question they came back to the eternal truth that they had the native here, and they had to make use of him.

They could not put a ring fence round him, and say: “Thus far you may go, but no farther.” They should use him so that in the end he would become a useful citizen, but the point that concerned him most was the question of the degenerate whites of this country. If this was to be a mere academic discussion, and if they, as representatives of the great communities of South Africa, were to shed a tear and pass by, then all their discussion was in vain. Or did they really intend to do something? He had been disappointed with the speech of the right hon. member for Victoria West. He had thought he would have given this House a lead in saying what they should do for the benefit of the poor whites and the natives and the whole of the country. Well, it was a brilliant speech, but he regretted to say he regarded this as nothing more. If probably the greatest authority in this country failed to give a lead, what could a novice like himself do? He had a good acquaintance with the conditions as they obtained in the Transvaal, and the position was deplorable in the extreme, but whatever those conditions were they would have been a great deal worse had it not been for the devoted efforts of the Nazareth Sisters, the English Church Institution, the Langlaagte Orphanage, and the Undenominational Home, in reclaiming children of dissolute parents. That all pointed to the solution of the question so far as the poor whites were concerned lying in a system of communal living. He admitted his idea of communal living would not probably have much effect on the parents (some of whom were beyond it), but it would gather in the children, and make decent citizens of them. Surely that was something for them to look forward to. If the Government was well advised they would endow with farms and material means, the Sisters of Nazareth, the Sisters of the English Church, Sisters of the Dutch Reformed Church, Sisters of the Undenominational Home, the Salvation Army, and the Jewish Society. He believed more would be the outcome of that than from any Select Committee. They had got to get at the children.

held that the matter could best be dealt with by means of a Select Committee. He feared that in the past the problem had been taken up in a somewhat half-hearted manner. The Prime Minister had often referred to the question, but what had been done? Nothing at all. Everyone spoke of the advisability of the matter being tackled, but at that it had remained. He especially referred to the many people living on farms, and he held these people were not of as much benefit to the State as they should be. Technical schools should be established, and a good education should be given to the children. However, it seemed to him that they were never getting any further than the passing of laws.

agreed with the previous speaker that in the matter of finding work there had in the past been a good deal of talking but little done. The speaker was in favour of appointing a Select Committee, as proposed by the right hon. member for Victoria West, and would be glad to learn from the Minister what had been done with regard to land settlements as contemplated in the Act of last year. On several occasions young people had asked him (the speaker) where, how, and when applications for land were to be made according to that law. Nothing however had been made known to the public. He had expected that the law would also have provided in other ways for the bringing back of the people to the land. He praised the action of the Town Council of Johannesburg in finding work for white men, and alluded to the municipal abattoirs there which employed hundreds of whites, and where not a single coloured person was to be found. Those people earned from 7s. to 9s. per diem. Such action should, he thought, serve as an example to other public bodies, whether municipal or otherwise, who should only give out work to white people. He hoped the Government would follow that example, particularly on the railways, which still employed many coloured people, who left the farmers in order to perform work on the railways which would provide a good living for whites. Farmers were in that way robbed of their natural labour. At the same time, he thought the whole native question ought to be dealt with and a proper solution of the question sought for, so that a fountain of employment might be opened up for the many unemployed white people.

at this point moved the adjournment of the debate. The motion was agreed to, and the debate was adjourned to the 26th inst.