from P. C. King, Stock Inspector, at King William’s Town, who, when Stock Inspector in the Orange River Colony in 1910, contracted enteric fever whilst on duty, praying that he may be relieved of certain expenses incurred during the said illness, or for other relief.

from G. Schalkwyk, of Carnarvon, who has served as a police constable for 18. years, praying for the condonation of a break in his services, or for other relief.

moved, as an unopposed motion, that the following papers be referred to the Select Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report, viz.: (1) Estimates of expenditure of the South African Railways and Harbours for the year ending March 31, 1914, presented to the House on the 26th January, 1913. (2) Statement of accounts of the South African Railways and Harbours for the period 1st April, 1911, to the 31st March, 1912, and the Assistant Controller and Auditor-General’s Report thereon, together with a memorandum by the Controller and Auditor-General, transmitting the same, presented to the House on the 4th February, 1913.

seconded.

Agreed to.

Reports and papers in connection with the railway surveys for proposed lines between Somerset East and Klipplaat Station and Somerset East via Pearston to the Western line.

Annual report, Natal Museum, 1912.

announced that His Excellency the Governor-General, having been informed of the subject matter of clauses, 4, 5, 6 and 12 of the Bill, providing for the issue of title deeds for land gives his consent that, in so far as His Majesty’s interest is concerned, the House may do therein as it shall think fit.

in reply to a query by Sir E. H. Walton (Port Elizabeth, Central), said that the reply of the Railway Department to the criticisms in the report of last year’s Public Accounts Committee would be in the hands of the Public Accounts Committee very shortly.

asked the Minister of Lands: (1) During how many days was the Government bore working at Boshof last year; (2) how many bore-holes were sunk; (3) what was the depth of each bore-hole; (4) in how many bore-holes was water found, and how much; and (5) what were the expenses inclusive of salaries and transport?

replied: (1) A Government drill worked at Boshof last year from 7th May to 23rd October. (2) Three bore-holes were sunk. (3) The respective depths to which these bore-holes were sunk is as follows: (i.) New School Hostel bore-hole: depth, 266 feet; yield, 1,700 gallons per diem; cost, £311. (ii.) Police Post bore-hole: Depth, 100 feet; yield, 100 gallons per diem; cost. £198. (iii.) Residency bore-hole: Depth, 60 feet; yield, 50,000 gallons per diem; cost, £113. (4) Water was found in all three bore-holes. The yield from the Police Post bore-hole was so small, however (100 gallons per diem), as to be practically useless. (5) The total cost of sinking these three bore-holes, inclusive of salaries and transport, amounted to £622

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether, in view of the recent serious outbreak of tuberculosis on the Government Farm, Potchefstroom, when some 39 head of cattle, to the value of nearly £4,000, were found to be tuberculous, an enquiry should not be held as soon as possible in order to ascertain (a) the cause of the above outbreak, and whether due to carelessness in carrying out tuberculin tests; and, if not (b) whether, in the face of such an outbreak on a Government farm with provision for periodical testing, and with all the machinery of the Government at its back, it is worth while proceeding any further with the tuberculin test; and (c) whether stock recently sold thence has been followed up and tested; and (2) what is the percentage of reactions in the Western Province during the last six years, and what the general percentage in Europe at present?

replied: (1) The circumstances in connection with the outbreak of tuberculosis have already been carefully enquired into, and there is nothing in connection therewith to indicate or suggest that there has been any carelessness in applying or carrying out the tuberculin test, which has always been conducted by a qualified officer of the Department. (a) It is well-known that infected animals sometimes fail to respond to the test, either because the disease is not sufficiently established at the time the test is applied or because it is well advanced and of long standing, and it is believed that the outbreak at the farm may be due to the presence of a recently infected animal which failed to re-act when the annual test was made and in which the disease developed to such an extent in the interval between the tests that the other animals became infected from it. (b) The occurrence of this outbreak is no proof of the ineffectiveness of the tuberculin test, but is rather an indication of the rapidity with which tuberculosis may sometimes develop and spread under the most favourable conditions, and emphasises the necessity for a more extensive employment of this diagnostic agent rather than the undesirability of using it. (c) The animals sold from the Potchefstroom Farm have not been followed up and tested, but prior to every sale it has been customary to test all animals put up for sale, and, in the case of those sold since the outbreak the stock were isolated and tested twice without giving any reaction, a result which may be regarded as indicative of their freedom from infection. (2) The record of the result of the tests carried out in the closed districts of the Western Province since 1908 shows that out of 17,611 animals tested 562 reacted, or 3.2 per cent. of the whole. In Europe the percentage of animals infected with the disease is approximately thirty.

asked the Minister of Mines whether representations as to amendments required in the law affecting shop assistants were made to the Secretary for Mines on the 4th December last by a deputation from the Johannesburg Shop Assistants, Warehousemen and Clerks’ Association, and whether the Government intends introducing legislation this session to remedy the defects complained of?

replied: As the question of legislation affecting shop assistants is one of those which it is proposed under the Financial Relations Bill to transfer to the Provincial Governments, the recommendations of a deputation of shop assistants which were made to the Secretary for Mines on the date mentioned have been forwarded to the Administrator of the Transvaal for the attention of the Provincial Government. The Government will therefore deal with this matter during the present session.

asked the Prime Minister: (1) Whether his attention has been drawn to the existence of a South African coal trust; (2) whether it is a fact that the Government mail contractors have acquired a controlling influence in this trust; (3) whether he is aware that South African coal shipped at Union ports is quoted one shilling per ton cheaper in London than can be quoted by South African agents; and (4) whether he will take steps to protect the interests of the South African public by introducing legislation making such private trusts and monopolies illegal in South Africa?

replied: (1) The Government understands that a combination of Natal coal owners has been formed recently, controlling ten collieries with an output of about 150,000 tons a month, with the idea of regulating the selling price for their coal. Five collieries with an output of about 75,000 tons a month remain outside this ring. In the Transvaal there is a Coal Owners’ Association, which again acts independently of, and has at present different interests from, those of the Natal industry. (2) The Government’s information is that the mail contractors have acquired interests in two collieries which are not in the Natal combination. (3) I have been informed that such is the case, but I do not anticipate that it is likely that London will be able to continue to quote the South African coal at Union ports cheaper than South African agents. (4) The Government does not anticipate the formation of any trust at the present time, but will watch events in the interests of the public.

asked the Minister of the Interior: (1) Whether his attention has been drawn to a recent report of Dr. Tomory, the Medical Officer of Health for Bloemfontein, where he states that the long hours worked by girls in tea-rooms has now7 approached a mild form of slavery; (2) whether he is aware that this practice of working shop assistants for long hours is general throughout the Union; and (3) whether he will introduce this session, legislation for the purpose of restricting the hours of labour and regulating the conditions under which shop assistants have to work in South Africa?

replied: As the hon. member is no doubt aware, Dr. Tomory is a municipal officer, and any report he may have made on the subject under notice would have been made to the Municipal Council of Bloemfontein. I have no official knowledge of the matter, but I have seen reference in the Press to the report referred to, and it is certainly a matter of very great regret if the condition of affairs is as stated. The hon. member will have observed from the schedule to the Financial Relations Bill that the question of shop hours is one which it is proposed to delegate to the Provincial Administrations, and the Union Government consequently proposes to take no action in the direction of passing legislation in the Union Parliament dealing with the subject.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) What has been the number of prosecutions under the Shop Hours Act (Transvaal), 1908; (2) in how many of these cases have convictions resulted and in how many instances have the cases been dismissed, and what has been the principal ground on which such prosecutions have been dismissed; and (3) whether any concession stores on mining areas are exempt from the operations of the Act, and, if so, how many?

replied: It is necessary to telegraph to Pretoria to obtain this information, and no reply has been received. As soon as the information comes to hand I will give the answer.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he has received a petition from the inhabitants of Waterford, in the division of Jansenville, praying for the establishment of a periodical court at that place; and if so, whether he has decided to grant their request; and (2) if no such petition has as yet reached him, whether he will, in view of the inconvenience suffered at present by the inhabitants of Waterford, take into consideration the advisability of establishing a court there at an early date?

asked the hon. member to allow the question to stand over for a few days.

asked the Minister of Lands: (1) Whether, in view of the fact that there are many unoccupied Crown lands in the Transvaal, which are suitable for occupation, he is prepared to immediately settle thereon the impoverished whites at present living in the neighbourhood of Delmas and the Stompiesfontein Settlement, district of Pretoria; and (2) whether he is prepared, in order to have available more such land which is suitable for the settlement of poor whites in the Transvaal, to cancel the lease of natives who are at present allowed to hire the farm “Goed-voor-Alles,” in the Waterberg district from the Government at a very low rental?

replied: (1) The whole question of the settlement of indigents on the land is, at the present time, under consideration, and, as previously stated, the Government intends to introduce a Bill, dealing with indigents, during the present session. It is not possible to deal with the indigents referred to in the manner desired by the hon. member, until such time as legislation has been passed. (2) The Land Board has recommended that the farm “Goed-voor-Alles” should be sub-divided and disposed of in terms of the Land Settlement Act, 1912, and action to that end is now being taken.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether the Railway Board has examined the country between (a) George and Knysna, (b) Doom River and Avontuur, with a view to connecting these centres by rail; (2) if not, whether the Government will cause such examination to be made; and (3) whether he will make provision in his proposals for new railway construction this year for constructing such lines?

replied: (1) The reply to this question is in the negative; (2) and (3) the railway construction proposals for consideration this session have not yet been decided upon, and it is impossible to say at this stage what lines will be included.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he is aware of the railway accident which occurred at Bot River on the Caledon line on Monday last through which Driver Jack White and Stoker Loubser lost their lives; and if so, (2) whether he would give the House any details as to the cause which led to the accident?

replied: The House and the country are already in possession of the main facts of this regrettable occurrence, which are that an engine was derailed, and in consequence of derailment it went over the edge of the culvert, and these two men were killed. He understood that the engine was travelling at the rate of about ten miles an hour at the time. A magisterial inquest will shortly be held in connection with this regrettable accident, and it is considered inadvisable to publish any details in regard to the cause thereof, pending the inquiry.

asked the Minister of Agriculture (1) Whether his attention had been drawn to the reported discovery of a tick destroying organism by a Mr. Munro Hull, of Cudgee, Emundi, Queensland, and which treatment is being investigated by the Queensland Government; and (2) whether he will by cable inquire from the Queensland Government the result of the said inquiry?

replied: It is requested that the hon. member will be good enough to postpone his question for a few days.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether, in view of the delay in the construction of the railway station at Willowmore, the administration will at once take steps to erect temporary shelters and to provide the necessary accommodation for the travelling public; (2) whether railway stations are graded into first, second and third class, and if so, in what class has the station at Willowmore been placed; (3) what is the basis or method adopted to arrive at such classification; and (4) if stations have been graded as indicated, will he illustrate the classification by mentioning for each class a few of the stations so classified in the Cape Province?

replied: (1) It is not proposed to erect temporary buildings at Willowmore as the administration hopes to proceed almost immediately with the erection of permanent buildings. (2) Yes, in a general way, but modifications have frequently to be made in standard types to suit local conditions. Willowmore is graded as a 3rd class station. (3) Accommodation is governed by quantity and class of traffic dealt with, and importance of station from a trains working point of view. (4) Uitenhage and Cradock are 1st class stations; Klipplaat is a 2nd class station, and Willowmore, Hanover Road and Sandflats 3rd class stations.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) Whether, seeing that of every pound spent by the Premier Diamond Company twelve shillings is owned by the taxpayers, Government control is in any way exercised over the company’s expenditure, or whether it is left entirely to the eleven directors elected by the shareholders owning the lesser interest in the mine; (2) whether the Government has representation and voting power on the Board; and (3) whether the fees paid to elected directors come out of shareholders’ share of profits?

replied (1) The Government’s rights and power of control are laid down in the Transvaal Ordinance, No. 66 of 1903, as amended by Act 31 of 1908. It should be noted that the working of the mine, including disposal of the produce, is vested without qualification in the mining company. Examination of books and transactions and general control in respect of the public rights in the mine are exercised by the Government to the full extent allowed by the law. (2) The Government has no representation on the board of directors, and is not entitled to claim any representation. (3) The fees paid to directors are charged against the divisible profits. In respect of the special remuneration to directors, under the company’s constitution, of 5 per cent. of dividends when they exceed the rate of 200 per cent., an endeavour was made to place that charge wholly against shareholders’ profits, but the Government was advised that the endeavour could not be maintained in law.

said that he was now in a position to reply to the question asked by the hon. member for Rustenburg on Tuesday, February 4. The reply was as follows: (1) The expenditure on surveys for irrigation works, including all reconnaissance surveys, in the Transvaal, from June, 1903, to December, 1912, amounts to £22,122 18s. 6d. (2) The amount which has been spent by Government on construction of such irrigation works during the above period is £68,272 5s. 5d. This latter figure does not, however, include expenditure by private persons in constructing works in pursuance of projects worked up by the Irrigation Department, nor does it include expenditure contemplated immediately.

moved that the petitions from W. F. Spann and 15 others, traders in the Glen Grey district, and from H. W. Prior, a trader in the same district, presented to the House on the 29th January, 1913, be referred to the Select Committee on Native Affairs for consideration and report.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved that the Select Committee on the Carnarvon Outer Commonage Settlement Bill have power to take evidence and call for papers.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved: That in the opinion of this House the Government should take into consideration the desirability of appointing a Commission to inquire in what direction and spheres of labour, and by what means, the field of employment for Europeans can be extended throughout the Union. The mover said that he would like to say a word of explanation at the outset. Under the rules of the House the motion which he was moving that afternoon had involved the removal of another motion of a somewhat similar character. That had not been his design, but he was glad that the other motion had been removed, because his motion had been designed some time back with the abject of allowing the whole field to be discussed. The motion which he was placing before the House touched the whole field of employment of Europeans in this country, and was, in its aim, constructive; the other one, from his point of view, dealt with only a small portion of that field and was in its early stage, at any rate, destructive. It would be seen that he was proposing the appointment of a Commission. He was aware that in that House and throughout the country Commissions were viewed with mistrust and suspicion, and even the first-class report that was issued by the Indigency Commission had produced no result. If he felt for one moment that the time of a Commission such as he proposed was to be wasted and that no notice would be taken of its labours then he would not have been prepared to give the time required to deal with this matter at all. It was in a very real sense that he proposed that a Commission should be appointed to deal with this matter. He hoped that the Government would accept the motion which he had placed on the paper, and that the Commission appointed would be thoroughly representative of the more important sections of opinion—it was impossible, of course, that all could be included—and that the Commission would give them a real guide as to how to move in what was obviously a very difficult matter indeed. The position at the present time was very peculiar. There was a shortage of labour. One heard that complaint on every side. There was a general outcry and demand for more white people and simultaneously there was unemployment among the whites. On the face of it these conditions appeared to be contradictory, but if they looked under the surface they would find that such was not the case. In this country these conditions were not at all contradictory. He would not be prepared to suggest remedies to change these conditions; he admitted that such a task was beyond him. He felt that the difficulties which confronted them were very great, and he felt that they wanted some lines laid down so that they could effectively deal with the question. There was a shortage of labour on the mines. That had always been the case, and he supposed that would be the case so long as they had lower and lower grade propositions and wanted cheaper and cheaper labour. He would say at once that he was not defending these cheap labour propositions. There was a shortage so far as the farms were concerned. In some places labour could not be obtained; in other places the price of the labour that was available had gone up to an enormous extent. On the other side they asked for an increase of the white population of the country by means of immigration. They were told that immigration would only accentuate the conditions. That would not be so. The reason of unemployment was not because they had too many white people in this country, but because the field of labour was so limited.

At the present time the native and coloured peoples preponderated. They were four to one. They could not exclude these people. They belonged to the land and they could not stop them from working here. What they could do was to increase the white population of the country so that the field of employment could be widened and the general standard raised throughout the whole country. They must remember that they would have to make provision for the increase among the whites in this country. He was sure that there was not a single member of that House who had not asked himself the question as to what was going to become of his children. Only a few years back the possessor of a white skin found it possible to be a land proprietor or an overseer. That sort of thing could not go on; in fact, it had already come to an end. In any other country the proportion of people who worked for wages was over 90 per cent. They could not have a nation of land owners and overseers. Then the coloured population was another difficulty. He did not pretend to be able to suggest a solution; it was beyond him. At the same time he did not see how they could go on letting this thing drift. He had no doubt that before this debate went very far solutions would be offered, but he felt certain that if they could get the sense of the country behind them and ascertain whether the field of employment could be widened—and he felt sure that this could be done — they could obtain a lead on a solid foundation and be able to follow it. Many remedies had already been suggested and he would just touch upon a few of them. Colour legislation had been suggested in the Northern Provinces. He thought it should be recognised from the very outset that this was a broken reed. The only way the white people of this country could solve the matter was to make themselves so fit economically that they could gain the ascendancy and maintain it. Then segregation had been suggested, but he would not go into this point because he did not know sufficient of all the schemes that had been suggested. He would just like to bring this point to their notice. If they segregated these people and allowed them to develop, the result would be that the products of their labour would be competing with the products of the whites in the course of ten years or so. Then it had been suggested that they should establish a standard wage on the basis of the efficient white man. He considered that this was a visionary solution and altogether hopeless. It would be merely bolstering up the matter and the solution would not stand the test of time. They must, do something that would stand the business test and the test of time or else they might as well do nothing.

He did not desire to burke a discussion on the question of the importation of unskilled labour for the mines from the East Coast, provided it was taken as part of the whole. However good the stoppage of the importation might be in a perfect world it had one or two serious objections. In the first place it would involve a dislocation of the industry on which the whole country was depending, and thus involve a colossal sacrifice on everyone in the country. In the second place, they would thus, be attempting to open up a field in which the unskilled white man was least efficient. The lowest grade of unskilled labour was performed by coloured men. How were they going to get white men to do it? In the matter of gold mining they were dealing with a fixed product, the price of which could not be raised, while the amount of gold in the rock was unalterable. How were they going to get people to take the place of these unskilled labourers? If they paid a low rate they would get the lowest class of whites, and they would come here only under contract, and with a guarantee of repatriation. They would have to turn then in search of other remedies, apparently not as attractive, and Heaven only knew whether they would be effective, but they would have to try something. A certain number of boys and girls were growing up in this country wanting employment. The competition for places as lift and messenger boys was very great. Between that and mining engineers, barristers, doctors and other professional men what profession was there? Were these boys to become clerks and shop assistants? No wonder wages came down, and there were complaints of competition, because there was no expansion.

A generation ago a farmer provided for his children by cutting up his farm? Was it possible to do that to-day? It could not continue. The bywoners were not fitted to face the struggle for life. All of these things pointed to a condition of affairs which demanded the most serious attention and effort. At the present moment there seemed to be nothing particular before Parliament to occupy their attention so, perhaps they could devote a little time to this matter. The condition of affairs was one of extreme gravity when they took into account what it was going to develop into, and they could not face the future without the greatest possible misgivings as to the future of the whites. Was the population of South Africa to be white or black, or a mixture of two with twenty standards in between? They had to make some real effort to provide for the dominance—on their merits—of the white people of this country. He did not know whether they could reverse the record of history and secure for all time the dominance of a white civilisation even in this portion of South Africa, but the two questions were: “Could they do it”? And “how could they do it?” At any rate they ought to make some real effort. He would not ask for a hasty judgment. A discussion of the subject would do good, and would induce people to open their eyes to the seriousness of the position.

The education which was provided for our people was unsatisfactory. It was inadequate and academic, and so far as three-fourths of the white people were concerned it absolutely failed, while it did not even attempt to teach them how to earn a living. (Hear, hear.) There was a movement to establish trade schools and labour colonies. But something else had to be done. Our people were going under in the long run unless they could give better value or through superior skill and intelligence could command a better price than unskilled labour. (Hear, hear.) He had often looked at men of the bywoner class working in the streets of large towns up-country. There was a steady drift of these people into the up-country towns.

It was a terrible tale so far as the men were concerned, but it was an appalling tale that the gutters of the towns had to tell of the women. The men did not know how to work, and they could not very well learn at their age, but there were younger ones coming on, and there was a chance to teach them, and unless they were sent out into the world with a better knowledge, experience and equipment than the native had they would not be able to compete with the latter, because he offered his labour at a lower price. He believed that it was possible to open up a field of labour for whites on the farms, where their intelligence and trustworthiness would more than compensate for their extra cost. He had had experience of the heavy losses farmers sustained at times through the employment of cheap, unintelligent native labour.

He had lost in one afternoon £1,200 worth of imported shorthorn cattle, simply because a native boy took them where he had no right to take them. It paid better to engage people who were intelligent. This could be done on the farms, but he did not think they could dispense with coloured labour on the mines. If a Commission would bring in a report showing how they could introduce white labour in substitution for coloured labour, and make it economically possible, he would vote with both hands for it. He would like to deal with another matter which was seldom dealt with in public, and never so far inside the House. What were they doing for the education of the women of the country? There was the greatest demand for coloured domestics, house boys, and nurse boys. Was this because domestic service was not considered an honourable profession by white girls. Hon. members would know that in the country districts, especially among the Dutch population, it had been regarded quite naturally as quite the proper thing for girls to grow up to 18 or 19 years of age, marry, and settle down upon their own property. But could this state of things continue indefinitely? Young men have not got the land, and the result would be that they were simply going to breed poor whites. It was their duty to teach these girls that there was an opportunity of earning their own living, of saving their own people, and removing the horror that was prevalent throughout South Africa. They must take pains to teach their girls. Speeches in the House would not do much. He had deliberately raised the point on the question of the establishment of schools for domestic science. Even in Europe they recognised that women must be taught, just as men were taught. Cooking was a science, the care of children and the household, and the proper understanding of the conditions of health. All these had to be taught, and, therefore, it was important that they should be thoroughly schooled. There was a school of domestic science, he believed, in Cape Town, and this at least was a start. A former Mayoress of Pretoria established a shilling fund for the purpose of training teachers to go and teach girls, but an important matter like this should not be left to private enterprise. It was a crying national necessity for them to teach women to do honest, honourable work; to teach them how to manage their own affairs. He would like also to point out that when they talked about closer settlement they must get people—men and women—willing and able to work with their hands and make a success of their work. He would like to point out that however much they might differ in a solution of this question, however much they were wedded to certain courses, he hoped that the discussion would not degenerate into a wretched wrangle as to whether a certain number of Portuguese should be imported into the mines. The time had gone past for pious resolutions, the time was serious for the white people, and it would not be a wise thing to let this matter slide. (Applause.)

seconded the motion.

said the hon. member (Sir P. Fitzpatrick) had referred to his motion as a constructive motion, but it seemed to him an extraordinary thing for a mover to admit that he did not know how to construct. He would move the following amendment: To omit all the words after “this House” and substitute the following: (1) the importation of native labourers from outside the Union greatly diminishes the opportunities of employment for Europeans, lowers the rate of wages obtainable by large numbers of the European population, obstructs the extension of the field of European employment, and is detrimental to the interests of the Union; and (2) the Government should take immediate steps to curtail such importation and to arrange for its ultimate abolition.

Continuing, he said the hon. member who had just spoken had not touched upon the real reason, although he must congratulate his party on the interest they were taking in the matter.

The hon. member had not during the two years that they had had discussions hitherto discovered to the House the profound interest which he at present felt and now showed to the House. They on those benches had been accused of wasting the time of the House, but he submitted that the motion now before the House and the quarter whence it came was a sufficient vindication of the motions that they had previously tabled on this subject. Had not these gentlemen made the welkin ring with denunciations of the weakness of the Government in not being able to make up their mind?. Had they not denounced the habit of the Government in sheltering themselves behind these Commissions, instead of giving the country a clear lead? Here they came forward with a request for a Commission on these matters which had been occupying the attention of the Government for the last five or six years. Had their experience been that, when hon. members on that side of the House urged the Government to appoint a Commission, they accepted the finding of the Commission? When the Phthisis Bill was brought forward they had denunciations of the Government for proceeding in this matter without sufficient expert inquiry. The Commission then appointed reported. Did they abide by the Commission’s report? The Commission reported that the disease was an occupational disease. Did they accept that finding? No. In harmonious co-operation with the Government, they passed a measure placing upon the men the burden of contributing towards the paltry pittance which the Act provided. On these grounds, he urged, their asseveration that they would abide by the report of the Commission was one that should have no weight with the House. If previous experiences were not enough, he would ask hon. members on both sides of the House what was the meaning of the charge which had been brought against the Government? They knew how hon. members on the Opposition side of the House had been supplicating, besieging, demanding, and accusing the Prime Minister because he was talking with one voice about immigration in London and another out here, accusing the Government of being supine because they were not spending large sums of money upon encouraging immigrants from oversea. What a sight for gods and men, that this great party should not bring in the present motion, when they did not know what those immigrants would do. (Hear, hear.)

He would ask this House if this was a new subject; had it never been inquired into before? There was a Commission appointed in 1906 which for two years carried out most exhaustive investigations into this very subject throughout South Africa —the Indigency Commission of the Transvaal. Did the hon. member contend that the two subjects were not the same? Could they suggest any means by which indigency could be relieved except by employment? This motion was nothing less than a motion of censure on the hon. member for Fordsburg, who was then one of the principal officers of the Government that appointed that Commission, and a very grave vote of censure on the hon. member for Troyeville, who was the chairman of the Commission. It was merely a shelving resolution in order to get the party sitting on the left out of a very awkward dilemma, because some of their adherents were feeling that something ought to be done. That Indigency Commission did extraordinarily good work. The evidence and report of the Commission ought to be republished and be in the hands of every member. The Commission found first of all that the lack of employment was due to (1) our land system, and (2) the effect of the labour system, the uncivilised Kafir with uncivilised Kafir wants mixing up with our system. The Commission said it was essential to realise the importance of the practical effect of the monopoly of the unskilled labour market by the native. The virtual closing of the unskilled labour market to the white population was a factor of the greatest importance. In another part they said that the position of the white population was for two reasons likely to become worse if conditions remained as they were. The native and coloured population were beginning to intrude upon skilled work, and there would not be sufficient skilled work even for trained whites to do. What he wanted to point out was that in this matter the Commission, after going carefully into the question, declared that the one thing was the presence of the Kafir labour with its uncivilised wants.

Continuing, the hon. member said that they were always faced by the opposition of those who were in favour of labour of a servile character. But in 1907 and 1908 they struck what was called an unexpected snag. Up to that time the mine owners had been in the habit of appearing before Commissions, furnishing evidence and saying that it was the truth of the whole matter. They recognised the tremendous financial power of the industry which asked for everything in the interests of the owners without regard for the interests of the other people of the country. Their experts came forward and gave a certain amount of evidence, and it was because they did not wish these men to be placed in such a position again that he opposed the appointment of this Commission. They told the Volksraad in the old days that it was a fine but struggling industry, and that if the laws of the country were only administered properly the mines could be worked at a profit. In 1906 they wanted Chinese labour, and said that only such an extreme step could save the industry. The 1907 Commission had the greatest difficulty in getting more evidence than what the mine owners were disposed to give in the first instance. They had been going on their own sweet way up to that time, and they expected the people of South Africa to allow them to go on in that way. This matter had been inquired into time and again, and the appointment of this Commission was only required for the purpose of shelving the matter, because if the motion was passed, those responsible would not want anything further done for two or three years, or until the Commission had made its report to the Government. By the way, what had become of the Sunday Labour Commission? At any rate, it had served its purpose, and Sunday milling was going on as merrily as ever. They had proved that the great obstacle was—

The Labour Party. (Laughter.)

said that this party had been working for the removal of this obstacle, and that the support of the right hon. gentleman in that House had been half hearted. Continuing, he said that the main obstacle was the attitude that had been adopted towards the natives of building up a nation on the labour of an inferior race. The Native Labour Regulation Act, the Pass Law, Chinese labour, the importation of labour from Mozambique, and the importation of Indians into Natal had merely been in accordance with that idea. He asked hon. members on the Opposition side whether this motion was not really a cover for the importation of Chinese labour. The hon. member for Yeoville did not contradict the statement. (Laughter.) What had the hon. member for Fort Beaufort to say on the subject?

It is an erratic statement.

said that he expected such a reply to come from the hon. member.

If hon. members did not want Chinese labour back they were bound to vote for this amendment, for he had it on the highest authority—that of the hon. member for Pretoria, East (Sir J. P. Fitzpatrick)—that there was no difference whatever between Chinese and Mozambique labour except a slight difference in favour of the Chinese. Speaking in the Transvaal Parliament in 1908, the hon. member for Pretoria, East, stated that exactly the same conditions and objections prevailed with regard to native labour from the Portuguese Territories as prevailed against Chinese labour. (Hear, hear.) They could only conclude that hon. members on the Opposition side were regretting the expulsion of the Chinese, and would rather like to have them back. If the hundred thousand natives now working on the Rand were not doing so the deficiency that would thus be created must induce employers to give more work to white men. He was not confining himself in any way to the mines, but wished to call attention to the indirect effects of the system. During a dearth of native labour, European labour had successfully been employed on the Rand mines. During that time the result was not what the hon. member for Port Elizabeth had asked the House to suppose. There was no interruption of work, but a larger amount of employment was found for white men, but as soon as the mines could obtain Kafirs again they sent the white men about their business. Would the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Merriman), proceeded Mr. Creswell, propound to the House on what philosophy he would maintain that something was impossible that experience had shown could be done? Mr. Creswell then quoted figures to show that the only difference in working costs on the Rand mines when a larger amount of white labour was employed, as compared with the time when the amount of white labour engaged was not so great was but 8d. a ton, which in one instance was subsequently reduced to 4d. Was that difference going to destroy the whole basis of the mining industry?

The Labour Party would proceed with these amendments until they obtained answers to the questions they had put, and until the other side changed its tactics of saying nothing for two or three years, and then coming out again with the same old fables which had been blown to atoms years before. If white men were employed on the mines doing unskilled labour at 10s. a day, went on Mt. Creswell, would the Railway Department be able to obtain white men at 3s. 4d. a day? The Labour Party claimed that Government action in regard to labour should be taken at once. The country was tired of inquiries and Commissions such as the Commission of 1903, at which the hon. member for Pretoria, East, gave wrong evidence. Evidence of that sort would be poured into a Commission, and who was going to organise a counter attack?

The Labour Party.

said they had an idea that the accident of 1907 would be wiped out by another Commission on the strength of carefully prepared evidence. He was not accusing anyone of perjury, but said that these statements of the hon. member were ludicrously wide of the mark, and were the reverse of the facts, although they were given in good faith. Proceeding, Mr. Creswell said it might be argued that if the importation of labour from places outside the Union were prohibited it would gravely affect the labour market, because the Rand mines would take all the available native labour within the Union.

That would not be the case, he believed. The farmers were much more likely to get the most. In fact, he would be very sorry indeed to see anything that would prevent the flow of white men upon the land. This was simply raising the dear, old bogey that they had raised when the cry was to repatriate the Chinese. It was said that as soon as the Chinese were sent away, the grass would grow in the streets, and most of the stamps would have to shut down. But it was a well-known fact that five years from the time the Prime Minister of the Transvaal made his announcement, the volume of labour employed upon the mines was very much greater. These bogeys were simply thrown out to frighten people. He hoped the Government would tackle these matters with firmness, and not simply suit the convenience of certain people, but rather consult the people who were doing work for poor wages, for these were essentially the real settlers in South Africa. (Labour cheers.) Tell them that the Portuguese had got to go, and they might rest assured that the mines would still be worked. The next argument used was that this was going to shake the confidence of the European investor. What shook the confidence of the European investor was such scandals as the E.R.P.M. scandals. These were circumstances which the Minister would do well to legislate for. He would submit this, that the use of a fiduciary capacity for taking over shares at prices which they must know would not be sanctioned by the general public, was a matter he would not designate as he would like to designate it. He would only say that there were men suffering punishment for acts more excusable than that. What the Government had to see to was that the European investor got security, not at the expense of the poor wage-earner, but by legislation. The House should not be led away by plausible arguments. Something ought to be done now by the House that would relieve the situation. Let them remember that in seven years the Mozambique Treaty would come up for renewal, and let them say then that they would not be dependent upon Portuguese labour Let them look round and see the spread of poverty and the lack of employment in the towns, and let them turn to the fact that during the past six months the mines had produced £4,000,000 more, but the total earnings of the white men had decreased by £336,000. There were two parties in the country, one anxious to see it go ahead on just and equitable principles, and the other anxious to see it in the grip of great monopolies and great vested interests. That latter system led only to greater degradation and poverty, and would eventually push the white men below the line where they could live like civilised beings. (Cheers.) The underlying principle of the report of that Commission, was that in England the artisan and unskilled labourer found everything to his taste. Did, he would ask, the events of the last few years show that? He hoped hon. members would not run away with the idea that high wages were something to be afraid of and something which should be got over as soon as possible. High wages meant a high standard of comfort distributed over a larger portion of the population, and that every man was getting far nearer the actual wealth he produced, which was of no little importance in a country such as this, where most of the work was done by the low-wage Kafir and profits were made for the few. They were told that they always made these party questions. He threw out the challenge to anybody to prove them wrong in this case. If they would content themselves with talk while the Minister of Railways reduced the wages of artisans; if they would content themselves with talk while ten hundred thousand natives at low wages were introduced into this country to prevent men from getting work so that he could get his railway labourers at 3s. 4d. a day; if they contented themselves with talk and did not vote for this amendment, “then,” said Mr. Creswell, in closing, “ I can say that our charges have been justified not by us, but by themselves.” (Labour cheers.)

seconded the amendment.

said that one was almost afraid that the hon. member who had just spoken would spoil any cause that he took in hand. Here, as the result of the discussion that had taken place in recent years, they had got some progress on this white labour policy, as was evidenced by the very resolution moved by his hon. friend (Sir J. P. Fitzpatrick). What was the result? Perhaps the most bitter attack that a man could express in words from the hon. member who had just spoken. One was almost inclined to doubt the sincerity of the hon. member. It was perfectly true that this resolution was the result of the Unionist Congress in Johannesburg. This matter of the white labour policy was very much discussed there. His hon. friend’s motion was by no means a shelving motion, or he (Mr. Jagger) would not support it on that occasion. They had to recognise that the white labour policy was a revolutionary policy so far as this country was concerned. We had been dependent absolutely upon coloured labour. Coloured labour was the basis of the economic fabric in South Africa, and in accordance with the habits and prejudices of the people of this country. His hon. friend (Mr. Creswell) had said that the country was tired of Commissions. He believed the country might possibly be tired of the way in which this matter had been handled by means of personal attacks. They could not make a revolutionary change such as was advocated here unless they carried the people with them, and it was for that reason that they advocated this Commission. Much educational work had to be done. He had had something like five thousand copies of the Transvaal Indigency Commission’s report printed, and of these over four thousand had been distributed. He considered that this was perhaps one of the most important subjects that had been brought before the House this session.

We should never become a great white people in this country as long as we continued our present policy. On the right solution of this problem depended whether the white race in South Africa was going to maintain its position. This entire dependence upon coloured labour could not be permanent. There must be some progress, and the progress being made to-day was rather in the direction of the coloured man getting the upper hand in South Africa. The vast bulk of any nation was the unskilled labourers. In this country the coloured people had a monopoly of unskilled labour. That was owing very largely, not to the coloured man wanting to get the monopoly, but to circumstances. Of course his labour was cheaper, and he was accustomed to a lower standard of living. But, above all, there was the prejudice which the white man possessed not only on the part of employees, but also on the part of employers. Under our present economic system there was absolutely no room in South Africa for the unskilled white man to-day. He noticed that some of the students who were learning mining on the Witwatersrand refused to do manual labour. The ranks of poor whites were being constantly recruited from men who, from various causes, fell from the more responsible positions of landowners, overseers, managers, and the like. The employers in South Africa preferred to employ coloured labour rather than white, broadly speaking, because not only was coloured labour apparently cheaper, but they knew that it was more easily controlled. (Hear, hear.) One of the great factors one had to overcome, he maintained, was not only the antipathy of the employee himself, the poor white himself, but—and this was the bigger difficulty—there was the prejudice of the white employer himself who would, and did, prefer to employ coloured men rather than white men. Under our present system the poor white must increase. The question was: What were they going to do with these people, and he thought that the appeal that had been made for a Commission was justified. They wanted labour at the present time, and they would need a great deal more labour in the future. He pointed out the smallness of the population of South Africa as compared with such countries as the United States of America and Australia, and said that the reason why the advance had not been so great in this country was the fact that they had had no room in South Africa for white unskilled labour. The hon. member went on to quote a number of figures taken from the 1913 census affecting the Cape Province, and said that these showed that though there were decreases in both cases in 1904 and 1911, the figures demonstrated effectively that the coloured workers were gaining the ascendancy over the Europeans in the trades of the country. The most striking feature of the table was the fact that in practically all classes of industrialism the number of workers, whether white or coloured, has considerably declined since 1904, not merely absolutely, but also in proportion to the population. Whereas in all the categories mentioned there were 1,161 white persons and 604 non-white persons per ten thousand of the population in 1904, in 1911 there were only 860 whites and 470 non-whites. The decline was at the rate of 22 per cent. in the case of the non-Europeans so employed, and of 26 per cent. in the case of Europeans. Hence it might be said broadly, that in the Cape Province non-Europeans had extended their hold on the industrial system at the expense of the white man by four per cent. in seven years. It was a lamentable state of affairs and it was time that the Government of the country took some action in the matter. He thought that the figures for the whole of South Africa showed that the white people of the country were really going back. The position was very serious at the present time. It would get far more serious in the future, and it was time that they dealt with this important problem in a very serious fashion. The process of changing the conditions would be slow, though he thought that in the end they would be able to do a vast amount of good. So far as suggesting remedies was concerned, he was afraid that he could not help. He had risen simply for the purpose of showing the House the seriousness of the position with the idea that some action would be taken in the immediate future.

said he thought that scarcely anybody coming to that House that afternoon would have thought that they were discussing one of the gravest problems affecting the future of this country. There was one, no doubt, that the condition of the white population of this country was the thing that always hung like a cloud over those figures which showed the enormous advance made by the coloured people in certain of the trades of this country. When he listened to the speech of the hon. member for Jeppe—he talked in his wild way about one particular industry of this country—he thought how little that hon. member could realise the future of South Africa. (Hear, hear.) It was such a pity that they had there a man who, so far as speaking was concerned and intellectually, was one of the greatest ornaments in that House, but he always reminded him of that famous character in the life of the ingenious Mr. David Copperfield, who could never talk or write without bringing in King Charles’ head. (Laughter.) Upon Whatever subject he talked, he always made a savage personal attack upon certain gentlemen in that House. It was a pity, for it did not advance the least bit the cause which that hon. member had at heart; it had the tendency to send it backward. He (the speaker) followed the speech with keen interest until the hon. member got to King Charles’ head, and after that he could not see what that member said had to do with the motion that was before the House, and he finished up with an attack on the mining industry as if that industry was the be all and the end all of this country. That was not the case at all. They were considering the sad position of a great many of the people of this country. It was no new thing. The hon. member for Cape Town, Central, had said that the position was getting worse, but he would be able to show that the condition of things was slightly better. It was now seventeen years ago since he brought this matter forcibly to the attention of the public at Port Elizabeth. He might call it the most successful speech that he had made, because the next day it brought him a cheque of £500 from a merchant in that town. (Laughter.) It was no laughing matter, because that money went for the foundation of the school which had done a great deal of good. It was only by efforts on the part of private individuals that much of this evil could be cured. If everyone in that House would employ one or two families of the so-called poor whites—he had never been able to find out why it was a disgrace to be called a poor white, because probably many of them had been in the same position at one time or another—a great deal of good would be done. In 1897 he remembered having correspondence with President Steyn upon the same subject. President Steyn deplored the way in which these people were slipping back, and wished to try and uplift them. Since then they had had a lamentable state of affairs. The Union Parliament had been in existence two years and a half. What had they done?

Now, his friend, the hon. member for Pretoria, East, came forward with the proposition to appoint another Commission who would go rambling about the country with the members, he supposed, paid at the rate of three guineas a day. They would pile up voluminous masses of evidence, which would have to be translated and printed at a gigantic cost. It was going to reform the country. It would do nothing of the sort. They knew the facts sufficiently. They had the evidence before them, and they should collate those facts. But the Commission was not going to do that.

He wanted to point out that certain steps had been taken by outside people. The men who had done the most to assist the poor whites in this country had not been rewarded by much public notice. He regarded his hon. friend the Minister of Justice as one of these. He was the first person who employed, on a large scale, these people on the railway. He took a serious view of the matter and employed many thousands of them. He put his back into it. He (the Minister) was regarded as a cynical man in the House, but he did show a fellow feeling for his fellow-countrymen. What reward did he get? (A LABOUR MEMBER: What did the men get?) He was attacked on every possible occasion for pauperising these people. They attacked him in the House most violently. Proceeding, Mr. Merriman, in reply to an interjection by Mr. Creswell, said that he honoured a man who went out and took 3s. 4d. a day, it was just sufficient to live on. The Labour Party talked about pauperism, and condemned the man who fried to employ the poor white. The Minister of Justice had shown conclusively that by employing these men he gradually lifted them up. He employed them and taught them the dignity of labour, about which they heard so much. He (Mr. Merriman) did not find that those who talked about the dignity of labour were those who practised it. (Cheers.) The Minister had given employment to three or four thousand of these people. He remembered the present Prime Minister using all his efforts before Union to induce the Free State, who were then making a railway to Kimberley, to make it by means of white labour. At that time there was an enormous lot of unemployed in the Transvaal. He got a band of some hundreds of men to go over there. He gave them an opportunity to learn to work, become small contractors and get on in the world, like people in England and elsewhere. The Labour agitators got these poor creatures together and told them no white men should work for less than a pound a day.

That is not the truth.

Was it the Labour Party?

I won’t say that, but it was a couple of gentlemen in red ties. The Prime Minister, he continued, said they could either work or starve, they would get nothing more from him, he advised them to go out and work and not haggle about the wages. They did go out and work and some were prosperous today, because they had learnt to work, and they had become educated in labour. Everyone in the House who had a farm should take two or three of these people and put them down on the farm—it was a very unpleasant job, because they were not accustomed to work, and were troublesome when they began—but they could believe him, they could get these people to work; no man was hopeless if they went the right way to work him. The experiment on the railway had shown that they were not hopeless. The hon. member for Willowmore had tried an experiment of that sort —all honour to him. They should get men like him to tell them how he managed to get on with these people. That method was being tried more and more in this country, particularly in the Western Province and its immediate neighbourhood, and it was surprising the number of families who settled down to work. He was not going to defend the mining interests and the capitalists, but where would the members on the cross benches have been had it not been for them? (This remark drew forth an angry interjection from Mr. Creswell, but it could not be heard amid the chorus of “Hear, hears.”) Mr. Merriman, continuing, said that his hon. friend talked of the random way of what he (Mr. Merriman) had done, but he had always tried to keep this white labour question before the public. He was not ashamed to say that he tried to get the natives of the Transkei to work in the mines. His hon. friend said they must keep the Portuguese natives out. If they kept them out what were they going to do with the mines? There would be a sad diminution in the Labour Party, and the contributions would fall off. At one time he was greatly in favour of the white labour, but would the white men accept the Australian wages of 8s. a day? Were they going to get them to accept 13s. or 14s. a day; if they tried they would have the whole country roused by these agitators.

The greatest obstacle to white labour was the Labour Party. If wages were kept up it stood to reason they were going to diminish employment, because no man in his senses was going to employ men for the purpose of decreasing his own bank balance. To restrict employment was to diminish white labour, and white labour had no greater enemy than the Labour agitators, the men who resisted piecework to others, and confined a man to laying four hundred bricks a day. What was it that kept up the cost of living? The cost of living was not much if they took away the rent; a man could live in very good style for £6 a month on the Rand and for £4—(“Question”)—in very decent style. What kept up the cost of living there was the high rent, not occasioned by the landlords, but the high cost of building. It was the gentleman who wanted to lay 400 bricks and get 25s. for doing it. Then they came to the House and made violent speeches against everybody up there. They were the greatest enemies of the working men. Why did they introduce the question of Chinese labour at that stage? “This is not a dialogue,” continued Mr. Merriman, referring to remonstrances made by various hon. members sitting on the cross benches; “it is a monologue at present.” (Laughter.) He also objected to Chinese labour; they were too good, and could do anything as well as the whites, and were infinitely cheaper.

In conclusion, he said that the question was a national one. It was not confined to the Rand or whether they should have Portuguese labour or not, that was not the whole question. The question was whether they could possibly find means in that House of meeting it? He had no faith in legislation, but they could in certain directions, he thought, do good work in that House towards putting before the country the true state of the case. There was a good deal of truth in what the hon. member for Pretoria, North, or East, he forgot which, said about the evil results of not being able to get women to work. There were women who preferred to live under the most appalling conditions rather than go out to work as domestic servants.

There was an institution here—the Christelijke Vrouwen Vereeniging—which had taken up the question and started a home for these people. Practical people who wished to do good would inquire into what that institution was doing, and would assist it in every possible way, for they could only approach these people through their own sisters. The House would like to know the results of the efforts that were being made to put poor whites on the land. The House could get no information on that point. A great deal of money had been spent and many attempts had been made, but they could get no connected account of what the result had been. They would like, for instance, to have the opinion of the Rev. Mr. Marchand and of those members of that House who were well acquainted with the Kakamas settlement, because a difficulty had arisen at Kakamas which had been foreseen with dread—that was, what were they going to do with the children of the settlers there— (hear, hear)—and also with the settlers themselves, for as soon as a man became prosperous it was almost impossible to keep him in a state of tutelage. He did not think a Commission was the proper way to ascertain the information that was needed. These Commissions rambled about the country, took voluminous evidence, and led to enormous delay. He would suggest a Select Committee, which would do far more good than a Commission, for a roving Commission would lead to delay certainly and to disappointment possibly. He moved a further amendment: To omit all the words after “That,” and to substitute “the question of the extension throughout the Union of the field of employment for Europeans and the circumstances surrounding labour conditions in South Africa be referred to a Select Committee for inquiry and report, the committee to have power to take evidence and call for papers.” (Hear, hear.)

seconded the further amendment.

said that that was a national question, and they all approached it with the seriousness it deserved. Speaking after a violent speech that had been made that afternoon when he was out of the House, he might be expected to make some reference to it, but he would content himself by saying that the hon. gentleman who made it got so excited and told them so frequently what he thought of everyone on this side and on the other side of the House, and that day he particularly told the House what he thought of him (Sir L. Phillips). If he (the speaker) endeavoured to tell the House what he thought of the hon. member he would have to use language which he was afraid the decorum of that assembly did not allow. (Laughter.) Continuing, he said that he held as strongly as anyone the necessity of increasing the white population of this country. The question, however, was so grave and serious that they should approach it with care. Probably by an inquiry they might get at some solution in the direction of getting over the difficulty and also of not interfering with the progress of the country, but advancing it. There was no doubt that as matters stood there was a deep-rooted prejudice on the part of white people against working side by side with natives. That would be the first thing to be overcome. Senator Southey had told him that he imported a number of white grooms to attend to his horses, but within three months everyone of them had a black man grooming the horses.

One of the great difficulties in the way of increasing the white population was the Labour Party, and the reason that Party stood in the path was a very simple one. The wages paid to skilled white men on the Rand, outside the mines, averaged £27 a month, while the wages paid to the Kafirs on the mines—including the cost of his keep, recruiting and housing—was £43 a year. In a country where everything was done by white labour, a labourer got much about the same wage as was paid to the Kafirs in this country, that was to say, from £43 to £50 a year, while the skilled man was paid from £70 to £75 a year. (A Labour Member: “Nonsense.”) It would not take a very large rise in wages on the mines to wipe out the enormous profits they heard of. What would be the effect of bringing in white unskilled men to work on the mines at 4s., 5s., or 6s. a day? If the mines made an attempt—he would be glad to make it if it were possible—to have white labourers in the place of Kafirs we should have an industrial upheaval in this country similar to nothing we had had in the past. Where would they get the white labour from? If it were brought out under indenture they would not be favoured by the Labour Party, and if they were not, the men would throw down their tools. (A Labour Member: “Rot.”) Any short cut that might be taken in the direction of increasing the employment of white labour in the organised industries was foredoomed to failure. They could not get over these difficulties by depriving themselves of a certain number of black labourers, which enabled them to keep their industrial system at the stage which it had now reached. Therefore they must find some other means of achieving the object they had in view. His friend the member for Pretoria, East, had pointed out that there were many spheres in which white labour could be used, and he believed that what he said was true. Wherever they got men untrammelled, unexcited by external influences, they would work, and work well. And if such a Commission were appointed would find avenues of employment. But to enquire into the industrial system, they that would not satisfy the people who believed that every white man should get at least from ten to twelve shillings per day. Another matter that he would like to refer to was the pretension of the Labour Party to represent labour. They did not represent labour, because the real labourers of the country were the natives. They represented a section of skilled labour—as far as they represented anybody. They could not pretend to represent the democracy of the country.

Force an election and see.

continuing, said he had heard some figures quoted that they could get unskilled white men to work the mines as cheaply as natives, according to the Industries Commission report. Let them read the Minority report however, there they would find that they charged the framers of the report with having misconstrued and confused the evidence. The best proof they could get under existing conditions was the fact that when they had to make up a deficiency in labour they were not able to make up the shortage by the employment of white men. White people would not voluntarily go and do work as unskilled labourers on the mines. If they could succeed in finding avenues of employment for white labour, then that would establish a great reservoir of trained white labour for the country. It was a fallacy to say that their existing system did not increase the employment of white labour. It did not increase it to the extent they should like to see it employed, but if they looked at the white population of the country before the discovery of diamonds or gold, they would find it was infinitely smaller than it was to-day. By the development of these organised industries the result had been that they had been able to open up an immense field of white labour. A Select Committee would have to work in the direction of increasing the field of employment of white labour. They must be quite sure that they were not going to cripple an industry upon which the prosperity and revenue of the country depended. The laws of economies were just as exorable as the laws of nature, and if they tried to disobey them they would come to grief.

said that the hon. member for Pretoria, East, in his speech had not touched upon a remedy which he (Mr. Nicholson) thought would solve the problem, as it had solved the problem in other parts of the British dominions. The remedy that he had to put before the House for its serious consideration was to take the whole of the fiscal policy of this country in review, to bring stability to the tariff laws, and to put on adequate protective duties, so that industries could be built up in the future, and existing industries would "be given adequate protection. The Minister of Finance, in speaking in Natal two and a half years ago, said that he could not conceive any matter of more importance to the people of this country to-day than this matter of the Customs tariff and of the encouraging and development of the industries of this country. He (Mr. Nicholson) knew that Free Traders regarded South Africa as an immense warehouse where they could offload foreign manufactured articles. They preached the doctrine, or perhaps more correctly speaking, heresy of cheap imports, we preached the development of the country and building up of industries under a protective tariff. Employment, and not cheap food, was what was wanted to attract people to South Africa. They had the most convincing evidence that in other parts of the British dominions Protection had led to an enormous expansion of industries and population. South Africa was the only country that refused to learn by the experiences of other countries. One ounce of experience was worth a ton of Free Trade theories. Continuing, he maintained that no Commission would solve the problem, and said his opinion was that with adequate protective duties only a stable tariff law would solve the problem.

pointed out that according to the latest figures from Washington, 12,000,000 people in the United States of America were on the verge of starvation, while millions were out of employment. He thought they should take a leaf out of the book of Australia at the present time. Only when the Government gave them water conservation, and light railways all over the country, decent land laws and other things could they expect a better state of affairs in this country. They did not want the lowest grade of unskilled labour, but free men. When they had something to attract people, immigrants would make their way to South Africa. As the result of his experiences in Australia, he would say that people went there because they were given a chance to earn; he wanted the Government of this country to give oversea people such a chance here.

Proceeding, he said they had official figures showing that they required three million bags of wheat in this country annually. How much were they producing? Only one-third of that amount; and they had to purchase the remainder at a much higher price than it would cost to produce it. What were the figures to-day? They had no correct statistical information, and it was difficult to get the figures, but he had ascertained from the best sources that this year they might anticipate only 350,000 bags of wheat, which left them with over 2½ millions which they must purchase at a high price. He had intended to move an amendment, but there were already too many before the House, that they should take into consideration the advisability of instituting agricultural village settlements. He went on to instance what had been done in Australia in that direction, where the men had been found with all they needed, and debited with the cost, drawn up their own rules, and kept them, and the Government supplied the business element, sold their produce and remitted the balance of the proceeds. Hundreds and thousands of men had started their lives in Australia in that way. Why should not this Government do the same? If they were prepared to say they would make a start at the end of this month he would find 250 reliable men who were prepared to go out on the land on such terms. These were respectable men, and well trained. Give them tools and all they needed, and let them go out under Government supervision. If they would do that it would be following the advice of the hon. member for Pretoria, East, and they would be doing something for them. That was the way they should start.

But with regard to the larger question, the provision of wheat. Progress demanded population, population demanded food, and food they must have at a cheap rate. They would never have cheap food in this country if they imported it, and they must remember that the wheat supply of the world was getting relatively very limited. He warned them of the possibility of Japan and China wanting wheat, in which case they would have to pay not 21s., but 42s. for a sack. In order to produce the wheat needed in this country, they would require to have under cultivation at least 200,000 morgen of land. That was the smallest quantity. That meant that not fewer than 5,000 men would be engaged in ploughing at the rate of an acre a day for four months in the year. That was the average amount ploughed by one man in England and Australia with a two-horse plough. In addition to having these men, they had official figures to show that wages would be £670,000 a year, and a no smaller sum than three million pounds profit would be turned into the pockets of the Government. This country was bursting with opportunities for work, but somebody was sitting tight; there was no movement, and they were simply allowing the country to be stemmed by a policy of grip. It was not a matter of fiscal policy at all. Germany. France, the United States, and wherever they went had their poverty problems. (An hon. member: “England.”) Yes; England, too, with thirteen millions on the verge of starvation.

At this point Mr. Haggar moved the adjournment of the debate. Monday was agreed to for the resumption of the debate.

communicated a message from the Senate, stating that the Senate had appointed a committee of seven members to join with a committee of the House of Assembly, to consider and recommend for adoption by both Houses of Parliament: (i) Rules relating to the appointment, office and duties of the Joint Parliamentary Draftsman of the Union Parliament; and (ii) rules relating to the appointment, office and duties of the Joint Parliamentary Librarian of the Union Parliament. The Senate requested the House of Assembly to appoint an equal number of members to serve with the members of the Senate.

It was ordered that the message be considered on Friday, the 21st instant.

moved that the order for the second reading of the University of South Africa Bill, set down for Friday, February 14, be discharged, and set down for Friday, February 21.

The motion was agreed to.

A similar motion, adjourning the committee stage of the Wine, Spirits, Beer, and Vinegar Bill till Wednesday, was agreed to.