From G. F. Smith, of Cape Town, who on being assured that his appointment would be permanent, entered the Cape Civil Service as Sanitary Inspector to the Native Location at Maitland in 1902, but was retrenched in 1905, praying for compensation or other relief.

From E. Clemmesen and 88 others, inhabitants of Benoni, praying for legislation whereby women, on attaining the prescribed qualifications, may be admitted to practise any branch of the legal profession.

From M. G. L. Birrell, widow of D. D. Birrell, late District Forest Officer at Kokstad, praying for consideration of her circumstances and for relief.

From R. H. Boyd, President of the Shop Assistants’ Association, Johannesburg, and 1,007 others, shop assistants in the Transvaal, praying that the Transvaal Provincial Council may be empowered to deal with, or alternatively that the House may itself introduce legislation on the subjects of shop hours in the Transvaal and the importation of shop assistants under contract.

Statement of special warrants issued 1st to 31st January, 1913.

brought up the report of the Select Committee on the Customs Management Bill.

The committee stage was set down for Monday next.

asked the Minister of Public Works: (1) What is the date of the original contract for the erection of the new Law Court buildings for Durban; (2) what is the date fixed for the completion of the buildings under the contract; (3) what is the cause of delay in making the new buildings available; and (4) what is the date upon which the work is now expected to be completed?

replied: A contract for the new Law Courts, Durban, based on designs prepared and tenders called for by the late Natal Government, was entered into on 13th June, 1910. The date for completion of the building under that contract was 13th June, 1912. Shortly after entering into this contract, it was found that, by revising the plans, more suitable accommodation could be provided at less cost. The contract was there-for cancelled. A new contract was entered into in August, 1911, and the date fixed for the completion of the building is the 1st May next. There has been no delay in the progress of the work beyond the period between the cancelling of the old and entering into the new contract, which time was necessary for the preparation of the new plans, etc. The contractor is being pressed to complete within the contract time, viz., the 1st May, and if this time is exceeded it is anticipated that the delay will not be great.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) When the Voorspoed Mine will start work again; (2) what is the cause of the long delay since the said mine ceased work; and (3) whether, in view of the fact that the closing down of the said mine is detrimental to the town and district of Kroonstad, he will immediately and as far as is in his power take the necessary steps to induce the new owner to re-open the mine as soon as possible?

replied: (1) I am unable to reply at present to the first part of the question. (2) The Voorspoed Company is in liquidation, and negotiations have been proceeding for the transfer of the mine to De Beers. Such transactions inevitably take a certain time to complete. I understand that the necessary meeting of shareholders and other formalities may be completed at the end of the month. (3) In view of the importance of the mine to the district the Department has already made an enquiry into its position and has officially notified the Voorspoed and De Beers Companies that the mine must be worked. As soon as the transfer is completed, therefore, steps will be taken by the Government in regard to the resumption of work.

asked the Minister of Finance: (1)What is the quantity and cost of the brandy now held by the Government; (2) in view of the splendid market for good brandy during the past two years, why has this brandy not been sold; and (3) will the Government undertake to dispose of al1 its stock of brandy promptly in a businesslike way, i.e., by advertising it for sale and fixing a reasonable price having regard to its quality and not to its cost?

replied: (1) The quantity of brandy on the Government’s hands is approximately 1,016,000 gallons; the cost, in round figures and excluding interest, is £156,000. (2) It would appear from this question that the hon. member is not aware of the difficulties in the way of disposing of the Government’s holding. Wine brandy in the Cape Province is subject to an excise duty of 3s. per proof gallon, but spirits other than wine brandy are subject to a 6s. duty. The Government’s holding falls under the 6s. rate, and the practical effect of the differentiation in duty is that spirits subject to the 6s. rate have virtually ceased to be used for consumption as a beverage in this Province. The only outlets left for disposal of such spirits are (a) removal to the other Provinces, where no differentiation in duty exists, and (b) sale for purposes of fortification of wines in the Cape Province, in which case the spirits used in fortification are not chargeable with duty. The market of consumption being so small, the Government has no option but to feed it with only such quantities of spirits as will not upset the market price, and this is the policy that is being pursued. (3) I must take exception to the implication in this portion of the hon. member’s question that the stocks are not being disposed of in a businesslike way! The Government is advised, in regard to the sale of its brandy, by a Board consisting of business men whose experience, prudence, and commercial aptitude are beyond question, and there is no justification whatever for the suggestion that the Board’s operations are lacking in business method. It must be obvious that any immediate placing of large quantities upon the market would have the most serious effect upon the selling price and would be directly opposed to the public interest.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he will consider the advisability of, as far as it is possible and practicable, replacing coloured labour by white labour on the Krugersdorp-Zeerust-Mafeking line of railway, thereby gradually carrying out the principle of having all Government work done by white labour in so far as it can be satisfactorily done by such labour; and (2) whether, if he considers that this is impossible and not practicable, he will state his reasons to the House?

replied: (1) This has already been done. An experiment was made with white labourers on the line some time ago, but owing to sickness caused by climatic conditions they had to be replaced by natives. (2) All things considered, it is thought that the employment of white labour on the Krugersdorp-Mafeking line would not give satisfaction, principally for the following reasons: (a) Climatic conditions beyond Zwartruggens in direction of Zeerust are not favourable. (b) Maintenance gangs work on 10 mile lengths, and trolleying work over 10 mile lengths in that climate is too severe a strain upon white men. This has been borne out by experience beyond Nylstroom on Pietersburg line, where climatic conditions are similar. (c) Suitable quarters for white workers are not available, and to erect them would entail expenditure of £2,730. (d) The policy of the Administration is, as far as possible, to confine natives on maintenance work to certain lines or sections, thus keeping whites and natives separate. Whites are not called upon to work in the same gangs as natives, or on lengths between two native gangs, and, apart from other considerations, considerable difficulty would be experienced in securing sufficient white labourers to replace the native gangs on this line.

asked the Minister of Public Works: (1) Whether he is aware that the Magistrate’s Court buildings at Heidelberg, Transvaal, are unsuitable and altogether inadequate to meet the requirements of the town and district, in consequence of which the greatest inconvenience is experienced by Circuit Court judges and jurymen; and, if so, (2) whether he will cause a sum to be placed on the Supplementary Estimates for the ensuing financial year in order to provide the necessary additional accommodation and to render the buildings in every respect suitable?

replied: It is admitted that the accommodation at the Magistrate’s Court at Heidelberg is capable of improvement, and the matter will be considered together with other services.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether a certain pamphlet entitled “ An Official Handbook indicating the main places of interest in Rhodesia” was issued at the expense of the Railway Administration, and, if so, why it is being issued in only one of the official languages?

replied: An official handbook indicating the principal places of importance in Rhodesia has been published jointly by the Union Administration and the Rhodesian railways on the £ for £ principle. The Administration is interested in extending communication with Rhodesia for tourists, regarded from a financial point of view, and is trying to encourage, as reasonably as possible, traffic with Rhodesia over the lines of the S.A.R. The Rhodesia Company agreed to publish a book jointly indicating the places in Rhodesia and the best ways to reach them, and in order to have its interests represented the Administration paid half of the expenses. The book was circulated outside South Africa principally, so that the Rhodesia Company did not want a Dutch edition, and would naturally not contribute for it, and it was considered that the Administration would go beyond its rights to bear the full costs of the Dutch edition.

asked the Minister of Finance what moneys are still due by the various co-operative wine societies, what are the names or style of the debtors, and what provision is being made to close these accounts?

replied: A provisional agreement has been arrived at with the several co-operative wineries regarding the steps which should be taken to place their finances on a satisfactory footing. This agreement will be submitted to Parliament for ratification at an early date, and the information requested by the hon. member will be supplied on that occasion.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he is aware (a) of the urgent necessity of establishing an Assistant Resident Magistrate’s Court at Dealesville; (b) that notwithstanding frequent requests for the establishment of such a Court nothing has up to the present been done, and that in consequence litigants in civil cases suffer great inconvenience through having to travel as much as 70 miles to Boshof; and (2) what steps he intends to take in the matter?

replied: I am not aware of the urgent necessity of establishing an Assistant Magistrate’s Court at Dealesville. Dealesville is situated some 38 miles from the Boshof Magistrate’s Court. There are both a Special Justice of the Peace Court and a Magistrate’s Periodical Court at Dealesville.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he is aware that the grounds surrounding the Magistrate’s Court, Johannesburg, are in a disgraceful and dirty state; and (2) whether he will give instructions for the grounds to be properly laid out and kept free from dirt and rubbish?

replied: The grounds belonging to Government surrounding the Magistrate’s Court, Johannesburg, are not in a disgraceful and dirty state. The ground is being levelled up where hollow with material taken from the excavation trenches by arrangement between the Magistrate and the Municipality. The ground is also enclosed with wire fencing.

asked the Minister of Justice whether the petitions praying that Ventersburg be proclaimed a separate fiscal division, presented to this House on the 15th April 1912, and the 21st May, 1912, and referred to the Government by the House, have been considered, and if so, with what result?

replied: The petitions praying that Ventersburg be proclaimed a separate fiscal division presented to the House during the 1912 session, and referred to the Government by the House, have been duly considered and investigated, but in view of the information elicited it is regretted that the Government cannot recommend that petitioners’ prayer be acceded to at present.

asked the Minister of Mines what are the practical difficulties in the way of separating portions of the output of a diamond mine before disposal such as would render it difficult to deal with a part of the Premier Mine output?

Among the practical difficulties referred to are the following: Under the Precious Stones Ordinance, 1903, and the Precious Stones Ordinance Amendment Act, 1908, of the Transvaal, the basis of the mutual relationship between the Crown and the owner, where the owner elects to work the mine, as in the case of the Premier Company, is contained in section 22 of the Ordinance, under which the owner is entitled to work the mine and dispose of the produce, which is coupled with the principle of division of realised profits when ascertained, as defined under the Act. The principle adopted by the Legislature, therefore, precludes the division of the produce, and the Crown has no claim upon the produce until realised and the amount of profits has been ascertained. If the Legislature were to contemplate passing a measure providing for the division of the produce before realisation it would have many other things to consider: (1) The alteration of the whole basis of a system adopted in the existing laws in the Union as regards the working of diamond mines; (2) special local sorting, valuation and allocation of the produce in their respective shares to the Crown and the owner by a committee or board of experts and the creation of machinery for the settlement of disputes arising out of such valuations; (3) separate accounting and disposal in regard to the Crown’s and owner’s share in order to ascertain the amounts due to the mine fund by each party; (4) responsibility of the Government for marketing its share of the production and delay in accrual of Crown revenue for considerable periods.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) What number of cases of explosives were manufactured during the year 1912 at the respective dynamite factories in the Cape, Natal and Transvaal Provinces; and (2) what were the number of white and coloured persons employed at each of the works?

replied:

1. (1) The number of cases of explosives manufactured during the year 1912 at the different factories in the Union was as follows: Modderfontein, 256,304. Somerset West, 422,158; kynochs, Ltd., 237,252.
2. (2) The number of persons employed at the various factories was as follows: Modderfontein, 265 white, 660 coloured; Somerset West, 399 white, 592 coloured; Kynochs, Ltd., 230 white, 800 coloured. The totals for the Union were as follows: Number of cases manufactured, 915,714; number of whites employed, 894; number of coloured employed, 2,052.

asked the Prime Minister: (1) Whether his attention has been drawn to the speech delivered in England by Sir Richard Solomon, and published in the “ Cape Times ” of the 5th February, 1913 on the subject of the duty of the Union of South Africa, in the matter of a contribution to the Navy: (2) whether that speech was delivered with his knowledge; (3) whether he approves of the tendency of it; and (4) whether, in case the said speech was delivered without his knowledge, he will warn Sir Richard Solomon not in future to publish to the wrold his opinions on this or similar matters without first consulting the Union Government?

replied: (1) My attention was drawn to a report in the “ Cape Times ” of the 5th instant of such a speech delivered by Sir Richard Solomon in England; (2) that speech was delivered without previous consultation with the Government; (3) taking the report referred to it is clear that Sir Richard Solomon only gave expression to his personal views and wishes in connection with the question of a contribution to the Navy and in no way can it be construed to be the opinion of the Union Government; (4) taking into consideration the circumstances in which the speech was made, and also the fact that Sir Richard Solomon clearly only expressed his personal views, the (Government does not consider it necessary to take such steps.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours when the men who took part in the Natal Strike and who were subsequently taken back into the service of the Railways will be granted their full wages as recommended by the Grievances Commission?

replied: Instructions have already been given that the wages of all employees who took part in the Natal strike, and who were subsequently re-employed at a reduced rate of pay are, in cases where this has not already been done, to be increased, so as to bring them up to the rate which they received prior to the strike.

asked the Minister of Justice whether, in order to avoid the enormous cost to debtors, now entailed, by reason of applications for garnishee orders having to be made in the Transvaal Province, to Superior Courts, he will immediately introduce legislation to enable Magistrates to issue these orders?

replied: By Transvaal Ordinance No. 12 of 1904 a general garnishee power was given to Magistrates’ Courts in that Province. On representations that the law in question involved great hardships it was limited by Transvaal Parliament by Act No. 30 of 1908 so as not to affect salary or wages. As this was done as a matter of policy and as a Consolidating Magistrates’ Court Act for the Union is now being considered, I do not propose at this stage to introduce legislation in the direction asked for by the honourable member.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he is aware that urgent representations were made by the inhabitants of Louis Trichardt and Zoutpansberg North for those districts to be declared a separate district; (2) whether he is aware that, in view of such establishment, a sum of £9,000 was voted last year for a magistrate’s office; and (3) whether he is aware that his predecessor promised that such establishment would be effected as soon after the present session as possible and whether he intends to carry out that promise; and if so, (4) whether he will immediately give instructions for the construction of the said offices?

replied: (1) I have been informed of the representations made. (2) I am aware that a sum of £3,000 was placed on the Estimates last year for a Magistrate’s Court, which amount is raised to £4,200 on the new Estimates. (3) I have been informed that my predecessor acknowledged the necessity and seriously considered the establishment of a separate district with its seat at Louis Trichardt, but was awaiting Parliament’s decision on his proposed Native Segregation Legislation before giving effect to it. (4) I propose referring the whole matter for enquiry and report to the Public Service Commission immediately in view of the recommendation of the Public Service Re-organisation Commission in its seventh and eighth reports for advice as to the limits to be assigned to the new district.

asked the Minister of Finance: Whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce legislation during the present session repealing the £3 tax, with remission of arrears, upon ex-indentured Indians in the Province of Natal.

replied: This is one of those matters that has formed the subject of representations to the Government by the Indian community and is still receiving consideration.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he is aware of the fact that orders have been given by the Resident Magistrate of Christiana, Transvaal, to all local storekeepers to discontinue the sale of Dutch and patent medicines as from the 28th instant, in consequence of which those business men who have stocks of these medicines on hand suffer hardship and loss, while the local townspeople and diggers are put to great inconvenience; and (2) whether he will take steps to afford the necessary relief before the Magistrate’s order takes effect?

replied: On enquiry I find that a resident chemist has established himself in Christiana district, in consequence of which under Transvaal law the sale of Dutch and patent medicines by general dealers is restricted to innocuous medicines of those descriptions. The Magistrate is giving the necessary instructions which will secure the affording of as much relief as the law will permit.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether engine-driver R. J. Carruthers, of Alicedale, was dismissed from the service of the Railway Administration in August, 1912; (2) whether he was dismissed because he was considered guilty of misconduct; and (3) whether he was given an opportunity of rebutting the charges made against him?

replied: (1) Engine-driver R. J. Carruthers was retrenched and paid a gratuity in terms of the Act governing his retirement. (2) His services were dispensed with as result of certain enquiries which showed that his retirement was in the best interests of the service. (3) No; no specific charges having been proved against Carruthers, it was not necessary to have recourse to disciplinary procedure. Had charges for breach of discipline been brought against him, and had he been dismissed as a result, Carruthers would not have been entitled to the gratuity he received.

asked the Minister of Lands: (1) What steps the Government has taken to secure land for settlement suitable for applicants from oversea in terms of section 17 of the Land Settlement Act, 1912; and (2) when some such land will be available?

replied:(1) and (2) The enquiries received from persons resident within the Union in respect of lands, in terms of the Land Settlement Act, 1912, are so numerous and will, if they are to be met, involve so large an expenditure in the purchase of land that I do not consider it expedient specially to purchase land for the purposes indicated by the honourable member.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harhours: Whether it is a fact that guards on the corridor trains are not allowed their food in the saloon with the stewards as heretofore, but have either to carry their own rations or pay the same price for their meals as passengers, and, if so, why has this alteration in their condition of service been made?

replied: The honourable member for Georgetown appears to be under a misapprehension. Guards have not hitherto been served with meals in dining cars, nor could they be allowed to leave their vans for this purpose. The only other uniformed staff who travel regularly on corridor trains besides catering staff are ticket examiners, who are provided with meals at considerably reduced rates.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether his attention has been drawn to a letter published in the Press, and signed by Mr. N. F. van der Merwe, Chairman of the Students’ Committee at Stellenbosch, stating that compensation has been paid to certain students for the expenses to which they were put owing to the alleged offer of the railway department to grant them concession tickets in order to attend a celebration of the passage of the Language Ordinance in Cape Town, and the subsequent cancellation of this concession; (2) whether the above statements contained in the said letter are correct, and, if so, what the amount of compensation paid or due is; (3) when the concession was promised and when withdrawn; and (4) whether he knew that the concession had been promised when he decided that it should be refused?

replied: (1) Attention has been drawn to several articles and letters which appeared in the press in regard to this matter, but not to the letter to which reference is evidently made by the honourable member for Uitenhage; (2) the letter in question not having been seen, it is not known what statements it contains, but the amount paid to the committee in respect of actual out-of-pocket expenses was £5 11s. 8d.; (3) concession was promised verbally on September 3, confirmed in writing on the 5th, and refused on the 12th idem; (4) no; but in any case the fact that concession had been promised by Railway Administration was promised contrary to the regulations.

asked the Minister of the Interior whether it is a fact: (1) That a British subject, named J. Painter, who, towards the latter end of 1912, under a 12 months’ agreement to ride, brought out to South Africa in the Dunluce Castle, a colt named “Paper Collar ”; (2) that Painter was not allowed to land at Durban, but, without any reason being assigned, was told that he would have to return to England; (3) that despite his protest, he was placed under arrest by the Immigration officials, and sent back by the next boat; and (4) whether he will make a statement to the House on the matter.

replied: The particulars respecting the case of J. Painter are as follows: (1) Painter arrived at Durban by the Armadale Castle on the 6th October, describing himself as a “stable lad.” He had no money or visible means of subsistence, but was in possession of a return ticket to England. He stated that he expected a Mr. de Lange would give him a situation, for whom he had brought out a horse—but with whom he had no contract nor any written promise of employment, nor does it appear that at any time any definite offer of employment was given him; (2) notwithstanding the fact that he was clearly unable to meet the requirements of the law, the Department showed every disposition to give him the opportunity of getting employment if he could, and, far from being treated as a criminal, he was actually allowed ashore, in order to enable him to get the employment he spoke of, if possible. He returned to the ship, stating that he had been unable to see Mr. de Lange, and that he could get no definite offer of work. He was subsequently transferred to the Dunluce Castle at the Shipping Company’s instance, and returned to England on the 10th October, having had four days in which to get into touch with any possible employer; (3) no protest of any kind was made by Painter to any officers of the Department. On the contrary, the officer who saw him understood that he was pleased at the protection afforded him by the action of the Department, and that he was sorry he had ever undertaken the work of bringing the horse to this country. He was never at any time subjected to any other restraint than that of requiring him to remain on board ship, and the Department would have been quite ready at any time to have allowed him in Natal had any offer of employment materialised.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether the Railway Board has examined the country around Lake Chrissie and New Scotland, and its neighbourhood, with a view to providing those portions of the Barberton—Carolina Division with railway communication; (2) if not, whether the Government will cause such examination to be made; and (3) whether he will make provision in his proposals for new railway construction this year for constructing a railway line to serve the areas referred to?

replied: (1) No. In regard to questions (2) and (3), the railway construction programme is still under consideration by the Government, and it is not at present in a position to state what lines will be included in this year’s construction proposals. The claims of the districts referred to by the hon. member for Barberton will, however, be borne in mind.

asked the Minister of Defence whether it is a fact that the High Commissioner has received instructions to call for tenders in England for uniforms for the Union Defence Force, and whether manufacturers in South Africa will have an opportunity of tendering for the same and will be given preference?

replied: I am making inquiries, and will give the hon. member the information later.

asked the Minister of Lands: (1) When Crown land in Bechuanaland and in other parts of the Union will be surveyed and given out for settlement purposes; and (2) whether the Government will, as soon as the said land is ready to be given out, have the fact advertised in the different newspapers circulating in the Union?

replied: (1) The Land Boards appointed for the Transvaal, Orange Free State, and Cape Provinces are being requested to report whether the Crown land in Bechuanaland is suitable for disposal in terms of the Land Settlement, Act, 1912, and, if so, which parts of the land and on what special conditions, if any, it should be dealt with. Crown lands in other parts of the Union are being dealt with at the present time. (2) Should the report of the Boards in question be favourable, steps will be taken to have the Crown land in Bechuanaland surveyed, and, when that is done, the land will be advertised as available for disposal ’in terms of the Act aforesaid.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) Whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that recently, owing to the oppressive heat and cramped space provided for operators in the telephone exchange room in the General Post Office in Cape Town, a number of the lady assistants fainted; and (2) what steps, if any, are being taken to prevent a recurrence of such a state of affairs?

replied: (1) I am aware of the fact that during the recent very oppressive weather in Cape Town several female operators in the central telephone exchange were overcome by the heat. There is ample working space in the exchange. (2) Steps have been taken to cool the atmosphere of the exchange when necessary.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) Whether any of the operators in the telephone department, Cape Town, had to be removed from their work in an exhausted condition during the period from the 24th January to the 7th February, 1913, and, if so, how many were so removed, giving the number for each day; and (2) whether the ventilation is not satisfactory?

replied: (1) As stated in reply to the previous question, several of the exchange operators felt the effects of the recent heat. On two days only during the period mentioned, namely, on the 4th and 5th inst., were operators so affected as to necessitate their being relieved of their duties. On the former date seven ladies represented that they were indisposed, and were relieved from work for the rest of the day. On the following day seven ladies were similarly affected; five returned to work after a period of rest. (2) Medical opinion is to the effect that the ventilation of the exchange is adequate.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) What is the reason for the four months’ delay in the issue of postmen’s uniforms in the Cape Peninsula; (2) is he aware that the old uniforms are nearly worn out, and that letters are being delivered, particularly in the suburbs, by postmen in uniforms that are considerably patched and in such a condition as to reflect the utmost discredit upon the department; and (3) whether, if the delay is due, as was the case last year, to non-delivery by the oversea contractors, he will consider the advisability of having all uniforms and clothing that are required by the department manufactured within the Union?

replied: (1) The delay in the delivery of the postmen’s uniforms is believed to be due to unusual pressure of business on the part of the contractors. The matter is under inquiry. (2) Issues of new uniforms are now being made. (3) When the present uniform contract was entered into the question of local manufacture was carefully considered, but the additional cost was so much in excess of the oversea quotations that the Government did not feel warranted in accepting a local tender.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether his attention has been drawn to the notice, published by the Public Service Commission in the “ Gazette ” of 4th February, inviting applications for posts of lecturers in botany at Union agricultural colleges and intimating that applicants must have graduated in science at a recognised university and have specialised in botany, and that applications must be in the secretary’s hands by 15th February; (2) whether such notice does not make it impossible for applicants possessing the very highest qualifications to apply, unless on the spot; (5) whether such restriction in present circumstances of education and development in the Union is not against public interest; and (4) whether it would not be advisable to recommend extended time of application?

replied: (1) The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. (2), (3), and (4) The course usually adopted to obtain technical and professional officers for the department is to advertise in the first instance in the Union, and in the event of no satisfactory applications being forthcoming to advertise abroad. It has not been usual to go to the expense and delay of issuing advertisements in other countries until it has been ascertained that no suitable persons are to be found within the Union.

said that he was now in a position to give the hon. member for Durban, Greyville, a reply to the question which he put on Thursday last in reference to the hours of labour of gaolers and convict guards employed at the Central and Point Convict Stations, Durban. The reply was as follows: The information supplied to the hon. member is incorrect. Before the new regulations came into force all officers at the Durban Gaol (with the exception of the inside or section officers on eight-hour shifts) were on duty for twelve hours, less two hours for meals, and the same rule obtains at present, except that the practice has been made universal to bring it into line with the practice in the other Provinces. This was also rendered necessary by the fact that as compared with the gaols in the other Provinces several Natal gaols were over-staffed, and the staffs had to be reduced proportionately. It has not been found practicable on the score of economy and efficient working to reduce the number of duty hours to eight. Nor do I know of any big gaol in any other part of the world where it has been found practicable to work eight-hour shifts. The superintendent of the Durban Gaol himself is opposed to a reversion to the old system. Under all the circumstances it is not proposed to revert.

moved for a return showing all correspondence which has passed either directly or through the High Commissioner between the Education Department and the University, the University Colleges, Mr. Otto Beit and Sir Julius Wernher or their representatives, or other persons concerned, in regard to the proposed establishment of a teaching University at Groote Schuur.

seconded.

replied that the correspondence was being printed, and would be laid on the Table of the House as soon as it was ready. He felt, and had always felt, that this House should know exactly what negotiations had taken place, and he hoped that the correspondence would be ready in print very shortly. If not, he would move that the second reading of the University Bill be postponed for a short while so as to give members every opportunity of acquainting themselves with the state of affairs.

said that there was one question that he wished to put to the Minister. There might be discussions on a former Bill, and he thought it was desirable that the former draft of the Bill should be printed.

said he did not think it was necessary that the former draft should be published. He thought that the Bill as published would sufficiently explain the amendments.

said he hoped there would be no delay so far as the printing was concerned.

said that steps had already been taken to have the papers translated, and part of them had been printed. He was anxious that the House should be in possession of the information as soon as possible.

The papers were laid on the table and the motion dropped.

moved: That in the opinion of this House women should be made eligible for inclusion in the lists of persons qualified to vote in Parliamentary elections. The mover said that he was in very good company in moving this motion, when he considered the names of those who had moved resolutions of a similar character in the past. In 1867, John Stuart Mill moved, in the House of Commons, in the People’s Representation Bill, that the word “ man ” should be substituted by the word “ person.” On that occasion the Government of the day agreed to consider that this question should be discussed as an open question, and he hoped that the Union Government would allow that question to be discussed, and allow their members to vote, not as party men, but that each should be allowed to use his own judgment and vote according to his own conscience. It was only recently that this matter had been considered a question of practical politics, and he thought that it was due to the way that women had persisted in pushing the cause that had brought it to the very forefront of practical politics. Whatever they thought of the methods that had been pursued in Britain, he hoped that it would not influence the vote of a single member of that House. In the first place, nothing of the kind had happened in South Africa; so far agitation had been conducted on peaceful lines. Some things had been done which they deplored, but he would also point out to hon. members that there had been cases where bodies of men, to gain a certain purpose, had used measures that were far from peaceable. In Africa the question had received rather scanty consideration, though under the old Republican government in the Transvaal a resolution was passed that when a man was recognised as a burgher his wife should also be recognised as a burgher. In 1892, in the old Cape House, Mr. Orpen moved that women should have the vote, provided they possessed a certain educational and property qualification. That was defeated. On July 4, 1907, Dr. Viljoen, in the old Cape House, moved in a similar direction. Though the matter was discussed on a higher plane than on the previous occasion, the motion was defeated by 66 to 24 votes. This motion which he had moved that afternoon did not pledge members to go what he might call the whole hog on the question. The principle that he wanted recognised was this, that all other things being equal, women should not be disqualified from voting purely on the ground of sex. He asked hon. members of that House to consider the question which he had brought forward on its merits. He would point out that since the amendment moved in the House of Commons by Mill the position of women, not only in the western world but also the eastern world, had materially altered. They had forced their way into the professions, and he instanced the case of Edinburgh University, where women got their way after a good deal of trouble. Women and children had to go into the open labour market and to sell their labour for wages. Industrial people had exploited women and children to their hearts’ content and to the detriment of these women and children. Because women did not have a say in the making of the laws of the country they were forced to work more cheaply than men. Even Governments were not above that sort of thing, and he pointed out that even in this country men and women teachers were employed. The women teachers did the same work as the men, and yet they did not receive the same amount of money for their work. They must not consider the few that were at the head of the movement, but they must consider the tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of women and children who were helpless at the present time. That was what made this movement so very important. Whether hon. members threw the motion out that afternoon was of no consequence to him, for he could assure them that it would be brought up again and again until justice was done. He said that this question of votes for women was not an end, but a means towards an end, and he would point out to hon. members that in dealing with this matter they were not journeying into an unknown sea. They were years behind some of the countries of the world in this respect. He believed that the State of Wyoming was the first State in America to extend the franchise to women. New Zealand gave the franchise to women in 1893, and various Australian States followed, the Commonwealth coming into line in 1902. There was also the example of Finland and Norway.

Further, we must not forget that even in this country women were enfranchised so far as School Boards, Town Councils, etc., were concerned. In 25 States of the American Union a similar franchise existed. He had yet to learn that there had been any great revolution in consequence of the adoption of this policy. They should not be deterred by any horrible prophecies they would probably hear that afternoon. He wished to anticipate one or two of the objections that would probably be made to the proposal. One of the stereotyped suggestions was that politics was a dirty game—(hear, hear)—and that women should be protected from the rough and tumble of affairs. Probably the introduction of women might make politics less dirty and disreputable. (Hear, hear.) As it was, women’s political organisations did the dirtiest work in connection with politics by participating in elections and canvassing for votes. Hon. members who spoke of the rough and tumble of politics should keep their women indoors at the next election. How much consideration did people who talked like that have for shopgirls who worked for 14 hours a day or for the factory hands and match girls? What did capitalists care about women if they could make a profit out of them? (Hear, hear.) Another objection was that women did not want the vote. A similar argument was brought forward when the rights of men on the mines were concerned. Working women might find themselves out of a job if they asked for the vote. He had no hesitation in saying that the intelligent and thoughtful women of to-day were convinced that they had as much right to the vote as Kafirs in the kraals. Then it was said that women were temperamentally incompetent to come to a sound and reasoned conclusion on political matters, and that being emotional they would be governed by impulse and not by judgment. That might or might not be the case, but the same might be said of a very large number of men. (Hear, hear.) He could not conceive the educational argument being put forward in the Cape where the vote was given to natives and coloured men. Surely women were just as much fitted to exercise the franchise as they were. In 1911 the Australian Senate passed a resolution unanimously declaring that the extension of the suffrage to the women of Australia had had the most beneficial results. It was said, continued Mr. Andrews, that if women had the vote it would break up the home. Again, he referred hon. members to the homes of the poor in the big industrial cities in Great Britain. Half the people of Great Britain lived in houses or tenements of four rooms and less. But what did the capitalists care about the homes of the poor? Did they consider the homes of the people when they dragged women and children into their factories at starvation wages? Not at all.

Then they came to the final argument, one which he believed had been used in the Cape Parliament, when that question had been last before it, by the right hon. gentleman—that seeing that modern society rested on force and that women did not fight, they were not entitled to the franchise. That was considered a clinching argument, and one that they could not get over. Well, most men did not fight, particularly the well-to-do and the comfortably-off. (Cries of “Oh, no!” and cheers.) If the latter fought they did so under very different conditions to the trooper and private, and they did not suffer the hardships of the men in the ranks; and, besides that, all men did not fight. If there was anything in that argument (that women should not get the vote because they did not fight) let the non-combatants amongst the men give up their franchise and their votes. (Hear, hear.) Soldiers and sailors fought, but how many in any given election voted? (Hear, hear.) A very small proportion; and it was just the professional fighting men who did not vote. The Imperial troops in South Africa did not vote here, they could not vote in their own country where they might possibly be entitled to—because they were generally not there. The argument seemed to be particularly weak. Law in modern society did not rest on force, unless it was a bad law; good laws—and they were the only ones they need consider and concern themselves about—rested on the will of the people. There would not be any the less force or fewer fighting men available if women had the vote; and they were not out to destroy the men. There was another thought arising from that, and that was that it was extremely likely and probable that in course of time the influence of women in politics might more and more abolish the tendency to resort to force. (Hear, hear.) Although women did not go to war, except in the capacity of nurses, they suffered all the same. They never heard and they never knew what suffering women had to put up with while the war was in progress, and after the war had ceased. It was extremely probable that if women had more say in the conditions of the country there would be less possibility of these hideous engines of destruction, now being made all over the world, being used. He recognised that in South Africa they had considerable difficulties when they began to discuss the franchise question. Having dealt with the franchise qualifications in the different Provinces of the Union, the hon. member said that he was inclined to think that if they adopted the policy of giving the women of the Union the franchise on the same terms as the men had it at present, they would be able to come to a working basis for argument. Perhaps they should take the line of least resistance at the present time, and that appeared to him to be the best method. As to the Cape Province, the argument might be used that if they gave women the vote many hundreds of Kafir and coloured women would also get the vote, as there was a colour franchise in that Province. He had worked it out that the position would be as follows. There were in the Cape Province 153,811 white males over the age of 21, of whom there were 125,460 on the voters’ roll; and there were 403,211 coloured and native males over 21, of whom 23,103 were on the voters’ roll. There were 136,636 white women over 21 years in the Cape Province, and if they supposed that only 50 per cent. would be registered, they arrived at the conclusion that 57,720 white women would be enfranchised in the Cape Province. If they might assume further that the native women would register in the proportion of one to every three of the native men they would have 8,773 women enfranchised. That suggestion of his was a compromise, and he was afraid that most measures in South Africa for some time to come dealing with the franchise would be in the nature of a compromise. He thought that leaving aside details they might agree to the broad principle he had referred to at an earlier stage; and he hoped that it might one day not only form the subject of a debate on a resolution, but that the Government would introduce a Bill which would embody that idea.

in seconding the motion, said he rather regretted that the mover had brought some party feeling into this matter—(hear, hear) —because he considered that this question was one that was above all the wranglings of party Government as instituted by mere man. This was a world-wide movement. Although probably the majority of the House of Commons favoured women’s suffrage, yet there were difficulties put in the way of adopting it and putting it into law. What they were suggesting that day was more or less an academic point of view, and asking the House to decide that to give the franchise to women was a desirable thing. They had heard only during the past week that the Prime Minister favoured the movement, but he took the attitude taken up by many of the politicians in England that the time was not opportune to introduce legislation. After speaking of the extensive adoption of the franchise in the deliberative assemblies of the civilised world, Mr. Meyler went on to say that this women’s question was a big matter, affecting practically one-half of the population, There were a great many married women who were in favour of the movement to-day. It was a great mistake to say, as had been said in the past, that this movement was confined almost solely to people who had no homes of their own to look after. Already they saw women in many of the learned professions. Unfortunately in the law this country had not so far seen its way to admit them. They had women as doctors, journalists, and people engaged in scientific research and women in almost every sphere of commerce in which men were engaged to-day. He failed to see how the ballot paper was going to sully the woman’s hands more than the cooking recipe. They had found, from experience of women engaged in work with men, that they brought perhaps a better finished product out when both sexes were working together. They had found that they worked better together in all questions concerning women and children. When they had entered Parliamentary life they had worked for moral, temperance and hygienic questions. Some bogeys had been raised in South Africa. They had been told that one race or one class would be put in an advantage over the other when they gave the women the vote. He considered that if they could only get the women to take part in these matters they would see for themselves the futility of going along the road on which we unfortunately started a few years ago by perpetuating racial difficulties. As far as he could find out from the Census returns, they were not going to have any difficulty in the matter of giving one race or one class an advantage over the other. The population of European and white women in South Africa over 21 years of age was really a very small proportion of the total population. He thought they would find under any system of women’s votes that was adopted, the coloured vote would be very small. In the Cape Province, of the total population, only five per cent. were European women over the age of 21 years. In Natal the proportion was less, being only two per cent. But they would not find that the whole of these would obtain the franchise. As far as he could find out, if they gave women the vote on the property basis only about one-third would get on the register, and if they took one-third of the total European women over 21 years of age they would find that it consisted of about 95,000, less than 28 per cent. of the total number of people entitled to vote to-day in Parliamentary elections. What was the wonderful system that men wanted to uphold by keeping the women out? If they looked at the Census figures, he thought they would find that it was nothing so marvellous that they should be afraid of altering it. If they took the whole of the Union, on an average 2,738 persons voted for each member of Parliament sitting in that House. But each member actually represented over 49,000 souls. In the Province he came from (Natal), 1,729 persons voted for a representative, and the position was very much accentuated, as such member actually represented over 70,000 persons. It was idle to suggest that a constitution which provided for this sort of thing produced a democratic form of Government, and it was not worth bolstering up. Continuing, he said that he did not think the enfranchisement of women would make such an extraordinary difference as was imagined. The most they could expect on the roll so far as the coloured women of the Cape were concerned was 8,000, which was merely a drop in the bucket so far as the whole total was concerned. He did not see such a great deal of danger about this matter, more especially as many of the Ministers were in favour of the motion. He hoped those hon. members who were against the movement would stand up and let them hear their arguments. The trouble in the past had been that they had not heard the arguments which induced those who took the opposite view to vote against the motion that had been brought before the House that afternoon.

was understood to say that he did not anticipate hearing the motion supported by such a speech as that which had been delivered by the hon. member for Georgetown. It seemed impossible for the hon. member, he was understood to say, to bring any matter before that House without talking about the labour movement, the industrial conditions at present, and capitalism. The hon. member had inferred that they on those benches pursued their politics in a dirty way, and he would say that he had never listened to a dirtier speech than that which had been made by the hon. member. Let them get away from all this filth. He believed that no man or woman had a right to vote as an individual unless it was good for the country. He was against manhood suffrage. His hon. friend had said that he was not in favour of manhood suffrage but in favour of women’s votes, and the reason was because he thought that they would support the party which he supported. He believed that no man or woman had the right to the vote as an individual unless it was for the good of the country. Was it good for the country that the women of this country should have the vote? He believed that it would be for the good of the country. (Cheers.) From that point of view he supported the hon. member, but he did not think that it would lead to that reign of socialism that he seemed to predict. They knew very well that so far as social matters were concerned women were far better than men. It seemed almost incredible that they had no women inspectors in this country. He did not think that some of their social problems would be solved until they got women to take an active interest in the politics of the country. (Cheers.)

strongly opposed the motion, and held that woman’s place was in her home, in the bosom of her family. He could not agree to the statements made by the mover of the motion, as the granting of women’s franchise was opposed to nature and to the Bible, and came from the Evil One. (Hear, hear.) What would become of the children, he asked, if woman followed in man’s footsteps, and had to attend meetings? Would the woman also have to go on commando in times of strife? (Laughter.) Then the husband would perhaps be in favour of one candidate and the wife in favour of another. What, he asked, would become of the household if the wife took part in elections and rode around with other men in support of a given candidate? (Laughter.) Both household and children would suffer. Then if once they had ladies in Parliament they would find them to be serious handicaps in their work, and Parliament would never get finished. Members would purposely raise discussions so as to get the women to express their opinions. (Laughter.) Women with self respect would never accept the vote. (Laughter.) In his constituency he had asked the women at all his meetings whether they wanted the vote, and the reply had always been in the negative. As regarded coloured people, did they want the wives of coloured men to have the vote too, as the mover proposed, so that their troubles might be even greater. They had already 25,000 male coloured voters at the Cape, who gave quite sufficient trouble without looking for more by giving the franchise to the coloured girls. (Laughter.) If this motion was accepted it would spell the fall of this Government. Let them look at the example of Australia, where the labour members had got the Liberals to give the vote to women. The result had been that the Liberals had been turned out, and the Labour Party had come into power. (Laughter.) That was precisely what members on the cross-benches wanted. The hon. member went on to deny that the old Volksraad had passed a resolution in favour of female suffrage— the resolution passed had been that a woman on the death of her husband could claim ownership of land. If this motion was passed, it would lead to great troubles between husband and wife, and if the woman went riding around with other men on behalf of her candidate, evenually to divorces. Since the war some 5,000 women had been imported here as nurses, etc.— those women would naturally vote labour. (Laughter.) The Boer would then have no chance, for his women would never exercise the franchise. The hon. member referred to the suffragette outrages in England, and concluded by saying that responsible women were opposed to the franchise, and that the present proposal was a devilish one. (Laughter.)

said he thought they would find in the speech of the hon. member who had just spoken the reason why so many in this country did not wish to tackle this question of women’s suffrage. That speech was an example of all the inherited and acquired prejudices against votes being given to women. They were unfortunate in this country, because they had race prejudice, to some extent religious prejudice, a colour prejudice, and now they had sex prejudice. The hon. member spoke of women going on commando. It was the very worst argument he could use, because he knew that in those very commandos the women helped to load the guns for the Voortrekkers, and did more than their half share of the work. If ever the time came when it was necessary for the women to help their men on commando they would do it as they had done it in the past. There was a good deal more than going on commando. There was the home and the children to be looked after when the men were away on commando. (Hear, hear.) An hon. member had drawn an alarming picture of what was going to happen to the home when the women were away canvas sing for votes around the country. That might happen without the women having the vote. Women were asked to do a great deal to get men into Parliament to-day. He would like to know how many ladies assisted the hon. member to get into Parliament. He would like to remind them that in normal times they only had an election once in five years; and was a catastrophe going to happen because women engaged in an election contest once in five years? He thought the hon. member must see that he was exaggerating. Then the hon. member said he thought that it was a degradation for women to take part in politics. Why? What degradation was it to engage in the business of the State? The very argument showed it to be an exaggeration, or that they required the influence of women to purify their politics. It was really prejudice, and the same prejudice was evident when women claimed the right to higher education The argument with regard to the home had been exploded. The hon. member must not forget that women had the municipal franchise to-day, and had had it for years. He did not know if he thought there was a different moral act in putting a ballot paper into a municipal box and putting it into a Parliamentary box. It had not had that dire effect upon their moral or intellectual character that the hon. member feared, up to now. Women had also sat upon the Hospital Boards with men, and they had a woman sitting on the Cape School Board, and not only had there been no dire results, but her special knowledge had been of very great assistance to the men in their work. So all those fanciful arguments of what might happen had always been contradicted by what had happened. Some people had said that women had an indirect influence. He thought that an indirect influence was bad for women or men. It was far better that women should have the vote openly, than that they should influence matters indirectly. Then they would have the responsibility as well as the influence. The hon. member also said that it would lead to an increase in the number of divorce cases. He did not think that it would have any bearing on the number of divorce cases, but if they had the vote women would be better citizens and better comrades for their husbands, and, that being so, it would end in a decrease of the number of divorce cases rather than an increase. And women did not stand alone in their demand for the suffrage. It was merely part of a movement all over the world for better and more democratic government. He would like to urge upon the hon. member the words used by a great statesman, when he said that a nation cannot exist half slaves and half free. And he would say that no nation could exist and progress if it kept half the population and half the nation in a position of political servitude, because if they did not give people the right to vote they were really saying to them, “We will legislate for you and we will tax you, but we will not give you representation ” A nation would never be free until all its citizens competent to exercise the vote had secured it. He hoped they would have no more speeches like the last; but that the matter would be debated in a manner in keeping with the dignity of the House. (Cheers.)

said this matter was of the greatest importance to South Africa, but whether the time had come to grant the vote was a question which he strongly doubted. Although personally he had no objection to the suffrage being extended to women, he thought they must look at the circumstances prevailing to-day in South Africa before taking any such step. They could not overcome opposition hurrying matters. This was a matter which they should not hurry, and he for one doubted whether to-day the women of South Africa would be prepared to accept the suffrage if it were given to them. (Hear, hear.) They had not got enough proof that the women wanted the vote, although naturally there were many women who wanted it, and those were mostly to be found in the towns. He had done his best to ascertain whether there was a general consensus of opinion on the side of the women in favour of the suffrage, and had come to the conclusion that all things taken into consideration the time had not yet come. (Hear, hear.) The House by accepting this motion might possibly do something against the majority of the women’s own wishes. Personally he repeated he would like them to have the vote, especially taking into consideration the brave and courageous attitude shown by the South African women in the past. They had shown that they were worthy of the franchise, but there was not sufficient evidence that they wanted to have it. If they were to extend the suffrage they must do it along the right lines, so that it might be used for the benefit of South Africa, and not merely in order to help one or other of the parties. (Hear, hear.) But to-day only a very small minority of the women would avail themselves of the vote if it were granted them. In other countries even Prime Ministers were greatly harassed by this question, but in South Africa, where they were faced with so many other difficult problems, they must be extremely careful not to do anything against the interests of the country and the people they wished to benefit most of all. (Cheers.)

said the motion before the House aimed at affirming the principle of women having the right to have the vote. His was one of the first voices in South Africa raised on behalf of this principle. He heartily concurred with the remarks of the hon. member for Turffontein (Mr. H. A. Wyndham) with regard to the way in which the motion had been introduced. He (Mr. Schreiner) was afraid that the speech of the hon. member for Georgetown (Mr. Andrews) might cause some persons who would otherwise have voted for the motion to refrain from doing so. The question should not be looked at from a party point of view, but it should be decided on the grounds of principle and justice. Let hon. members vote as they thought right. He did not think it would add to racialism, which was dying out, and he gave credit to the endeavours which the Prime Minister had made in that direction. In the time of the Voortrekkers, proceeded Mr. Schreiner, the women were just as important and brave as the men. He honoured those brave women who took up arms in the late war and remained with the commandoes to the end. The women of South Africa would be as ready to meet the foe in the future as they had been in the past. As to the outrages done by the suffragettes, they were committed because they had not the vote. Violent acts were frequently performed by people when they felt they were unjustly deprived of their rights. But in South Africa there had been no outrages by suffragettes. No one in his sense would ever dream that manhood suffrage could be extended to the native races, but there was a way out of the difficulty in suffrage according to qualification, as they had in the Cape Province. There was no insuperable difficulty involved in the question whether a woman should have the franchise or not. It was said that women were differently constituted to men, and that that was why they should not get the franchise. Well, he agreed that they were differently constituted, and that women were more emotional than men, but that was no reason why they should not be entitled to get the franchise. It was just because of the difference between men and women in their way of looking at matters that it would be beneficial to have their assistance in politics and legislature. It was said that women did not take a wide or deep view of matters political, but of how many men could it be said that they took a wide or deep view of political matters? Of only a small minority, he thought, and yet they had the vote. He felt sure that the resolution before them was a step in the right direction, and he trusted that all hon. members would vote conscientiously on it, apart altogether from party views. It would be a splendid thing if South Africa could set the Mother Country a good example in that respect, and he hoped that the motion would be agreed to.

said the question was apparently being dealt with too frivolously. They might, perhaps, get the impression that the hon. member for Tembuland knew all about women, though the hon. member in question had never had a household. The hon. member for Middelburg was somewhat too severe, and the Prime Minister had done right in taking the line that the time was not yet ripe for giving the vote to women. There were few members on the Government side of the House who were in favour of the motion. The brave wives of the Voortrekkers would have refused to receive the franchise. In Vrededorp the women did not help during the elections, and women who did work of that kind made themselves too cheap. Ladies could not bear the insults to which candidates had to submit. The motion had been brought forward by the Labour Party merely in order to get a big notice in the newspapers. They wanted an advertisement. The members on the cross-benches had only succeeded in doing injury to the cause. It would not be long before the speaker would be in favour of introducing women’s franchise. The women were better capable of organising than the men, but it was impossible to hand over the governing of the country into the hands of women. They should exercise their influence in their own homes and in societies. They heard a good deal about over-worked shop-girls, but if bachelors such as the hon. member for Tembuland did their duty there would not be so many of them. (Laughter.)

expressed himself strongly in support of the motion. This question was one of absolute right and absolute justice on the part of women. They had so far improved themselves during the past century in every direction of culture, and they had put themselves on such a level with men that they challenged man in his own kingdom. It could no longer be said that men occupied a level of intellectual superiority over women. The vote must come. Their intellectual equality with men was being proved in every field of labour to-day. The Prime Minister had said that they must wait until they were assured that the women of South Africa really wanted this vote. They would wait, but he trusted that the women who were taking part in this movement would go on educating their fellow women, and he believed that, in the course of a few years, the women of South Africa would rapidly become educated to the knowledge and certainty that they could take an equal part with men in this movement.

regretted that the mover had not brought in a bill and shown them what he actually wanted. He sympathised with the matter, but said it was impossible for him to advocate a motion under which every woman would be placed on the voters’ roll. He quoted the cases of widows or young women having to look after themselves, and employing servants who had the franchise, and said that he was in favour of such women getting the vote. But a woman who lived with her husband, or a girl who dwelt with her parents, had no right to the franchise. He moved an amendment that Government take into consideration the granting of the vote to taxpayers and self-supporting women.

The amendment was not seconded.

said he did not think the Prime Minister had risen to the occasion, when he said that he felt there was no agitation on the part of the women in the country in favour of the franchise. He submitted that it was the duty of the Prime Minister, if he was in favour of women’s franchise, to register his vote for this motion, no matter what the feeling in this country was. The first British colony to adopt the women’s franchise was New Zealand, and when it was introduced there the self-same cry was raised that the women did not want it, and would not have it. As a matter of fact, 75 per cent. of the women who were enfranchised voted. Continuing, he said he would like to point out that in science a woman was almost at the very top of the ladder, and so far as education was concerned a woman, who recently died, had been the Chairman of the School Board of the city of Edinburgh. A great many persons had said that giving women the vote would mean the breaking up of homes. There was no evidence to that effect, and he challenged any member of that House to bring evidence to show that such was the case. He considered that that was one of the sentimental arguments that was used against such a motion as had been placed before the House by the hon. member for Georgetown. In South Africa they were making provision for women to take places on the Hospital Boards, and so far as the School Boards were concerned women had been enabled to render men a very great deal of assistance. In Sweden women had possessed the same liberty as men for a great many years, and he challenged any member of that House to show that Sweden was any the worse off for that fact, Then in Finland women had the vote. Continuing, he said he did not see how after once granting women the vote they could prevent them taking a place in Parliament. He showed how women had advanced in the professions of the world. He would ask hon. members not to be led away by the Premier because he said that there was no demand for it. The question was: Is it right for women to have the vote or not? One of the reasons why they wanted women in politics was because the age of fighting and force had gone by, and they were now in an age of legislation and common sense; and they contended that in dealing with legislation regarding the home, the child, and so on, women would help them best. They should not look at the matter from the point of view of how many votes they would get on this side or the other side. If the principle was right then they should give women the vote. He supposed the House would reject the motion, but he did not think that it would be very many years ere this House and every House would step into line, because owing to the advance of education, and women being compelled to go out as workers and enter into competition with men, they could not do anything else than give them their due in the shape of the vote. They should not ask the question were they giving votes to women, but were they giving votes to persons who had the right to them, and to those who would tend to advance the country in its legislation and in its social life. If they asked that question there would be only one vote registered in the House, and that would be in favour of the motion. (Cheers.)

said the opponents of this principle had been remarkable for the strict economy they had observed in the matter or argument. Their attitude seemed to be the fine masculine attitude: “Do not reason, do not argue, do not discuss; but use brute force in the shape of your vote.” That did not apply to hon. members on his side of the House so much as to those who opposed the motion on the other side of the House. His friends supposed in some sort of way that the Bible was contrary to the motion, and his hon. friend said that the Devil was in favour of it. He would like to ask him exactly what his ground were for charging the Devil with this motion, and he would ask him what right he had for saying that the Bible was against it. There was no reason for his assertion. They should argue the matter on its merits. He would like also to protest against the hon. member for Middelburg saying that no self-respecting woman would vote. He thought that that was a thing that should not have been said. Many self-respecting women would exercise the power to vote. He did not think that the chief argument for the motion was the separate interests of women, but he would like to remind hon. members that the rights of women had been wrenched from the men by the women, and an immense struggle had been necessary to give women the very elements of justice in England and further, for instance, in the matter of divorce laws even now full justice had not been given to the women. On the Education Commission Mr. Jagger made himself responsible for the statement that in this country the curriculum was drawn up mainly in regard to the interests of boys, and not in regard to the interests of girls, and there was no doubt that that was so. That was not in the interests of the public, because, after all, the girls were as important to us as the boys, and if they were going to neglect the interests of the girls, as they were doing at present, the public at large would suffer. They had no women inspectors. How was that? He thought the work of their schools would be better done if they had some women inspectors. The only wise course for opponents of this motion to adopt was to take refuge in silence. He wished to say that while women had shown no great capacity in some lines, one line in which women had shown supreme capacity was in the matter of dealing with human nature. They had shown it as novelists. Take George Eliot, for instance. On the average the women novelists gave a higher and deeper and more important lesson in regard to the conduct of life than the men did. He had found the same in this country. For many years he had examined in philosophy for the University of the Cape. On one occasion only had he suddenly felt when examining papers that he was in the presence of a mind that deserved the respect of all, and that was a woman’s mind. Here they were dealing with great human and psychological subjects, and they were trying to get rid of the sex that could deal with those subjects best. There was the hon. member opposite who was constantly pressing upon them the necessity of economy. Now, he would ask if it was not the experience of all that the female sex was the economical sex. (Loud laughter.) He would venture to say that in regard to wasteful and unnecessary expenditure the woman would subject expenditure of that kind to a close and profound scrutiny, when the man was too proud, too weak, and too—

Too self-indulgent.

Yes, too self-indulgent.

Who buys hats? Mr. FREMANTLE: Each sex has its own economies and its own extravagances, but the extravagances of the female sex are petty compared with those of the male.

Continuing, Mr. Fremantle said that women were more capable of dealing with social and great human questions than were men. For instance, South Africa had no Factories Act to put a stop to the gross cruelty perpetrated to women and children in some factories. Again, he did not think education in South Africa would have sunk into such a pitiable condition if women had been given the vote. Further, women had a certain instinct in regard to character which put them at an advantage as compared with men. Did a man’s judgment of his fellow men make him so superior to the natural instincts of women that he desired to monopolise the choice of members of Parliament? It was madness for men to say that they did not desire women’s assistance in choosing men to carry on the government of the people. It was not to be supposed, however, that a miracle would happen through the granting of this or any other reform, but by the imposition on women of the right to vote a subtle, pervading and potent influence would be brought to bear which could not fail to have a good effect on the government of the country. The dividing lines in this controversy went deeper than the question itself. On one side it was held that the business of life was the acquisition of riches and the establishment of external force, as if these were the sole objects of human endeavour. On the other hand, it was maintained that nothing was of value in your riches, your power, or your imperial greatness except in so far as they contributed to the development of human life, and to development of men and women who would lead a happy and a prosperous life. “If we wish to enrich the nation,” concluded Mr. Fremantle, “the time has come to call to our aid those who are our equals in some points, who are our inferiors only in external matters, who are our superiors in many points, and to do now what must be done sooner or later— to break down the rule that people must be disqualified from ruling because of their sex.” (Hear, hear.)

said that he always listened with a great deal of interest and pleasure to the speeches of the hon. member for Turffontein (Mr. Wyndham), because then they heard the sound old Tory doctrine. (Laughter.) As to what had been said about the Labour Party, they had no use for the Unionist Party, and they (the Unionists) were not even an efficient Opposition. Their responsibility was not one whit lightened by quoting what position the Labour Party had taken up; and they (the Labour Party) would continue to advocate their views and opinions, whether they (the Opposition) liked them or not. The hon. member for Turffontein did not look upon the question of the women’s franchise as one of right, but whether it was for the good of the country. His one reason had been that it would not add to the strength of the Labour Party in that country; and that was what he meant, if they were not his actual words. The hon. member’s prototype on the Ministerialist benches (Mr. Du Toit) thought that woman’s franchise would greatly add to the strength of the Labour Party. (Laughter.) Their (the Labour Party’s) point of view was that they regarded it as a matter of the utmost importance in the public interest; and the days had gone by when any weight could be attached to the argument—employed, he thought, by the right hon. member for Victoria West in 1907 in the Cape House of Assembly—that society rested on force. The problems before the public were mainly social problems, and the real division which had come in politics was whether the human interests of the people should receive consideration or whether the present system should be continued—human interests sacrificed to the rights of property, as was held in practice by hon. members sitting on both sides of the House. It was shown in practice how little they cared for the human needs of the people when they dealt with the Miners’ Phthisis Bill. Men took too much of the business and £ s. d. view of politics, and women took a more human view. He would support the motion. They claimed the right of women to vote on those grounds, and discarded as nonsensical the reasons given that the women’s place was in the home as so much trash. They wanted to bring women into the political system so as to restore the possibility of home to the very large number of people who were deprived of one.

hoped the House would express itself clearly on this question and would reject the motion. He had never heard in a debating society such weak reasons as had been brought forward in its support. The hon. member for Tembuland had let the cat out of the bag when he said “Women will have to come off the pedestal on which they have been put. They will have to stand alongside us and work with us.” The speaker did not wish to pluck women from her high pedestal, though that seemed likely to take place if she were given the franchise. He hoped women would not get the right to vote before men desired to give it to them, and trusted it would not be the case, as was stated by the Prime Minister, that they would get it when they clearly asked for it. The speaker feared that all chivalry would disappear if the franchise were extended in the manner proposed, with the result that when another great disaster at sea took place such as that in the case of the “Titanic,” it would cease to be a cry of “women first.” He trusted the motion would be rejected.

said he would support the motion. He had listened with great interest to the arguments for and against the motion, and thought that both sides rather exaggerated their case. He did not think the results of female suffrage would be as disastrous as the opponents of the motion tried to make out, nor did he think they would be as satisfactory and good as the supporters thought. He would refer hon. members to the experience of other countries for precedents. He could not find that any very terrible things had followed the giving of the franchise to women, and when everything was taken into consideration, he thought there was more in favour than against the motion. He wanted women to have the vote, because he thought such would be in the interests of the development of the race—(hear, hear)—the general development of the race would be helped along. Man’s development was a thing of slow growth, and it was neither hastened nor delayed by the giving or withholding of a certain right. But such giving or withholding of a right closely concerned the general development. Let them look at the strides which women had taken this last century in every sphere of human life. Therefore, he thought they could not deny that women had the right to be called upon to take part of the responsibility in the government of the country, because responsibility tended to make a good citizen. If responsibility was withheld, a person always remained a child. If woman’s character was strengthened by the addition of responsibility, there would be greater development in many spheres of life, and the children in their education would benefit at once. These were the reasons why he would support the motion, which he hoped would pass. (Hear, hear.)

opposed the motion on the ground that women’s place was the home. Who would look after the homes and the children if women went to Parliament? Must the men do it? He hoped the motion would be rejected.

said that it seemed to him that a principle that did not go all the way should never be started, and they had had a great many starts that had not gone a very long way. He thought that some of those who had said so much about a woman’s place being at home should have lived in other places and in other times, for instance, when Grace Darling persuaded her father to go to the wreck. (Laughter.) Some hon. members should have been there and have said to her that woman’s place was at home. They might have saved history from the disgrace of recording the heroic deed. Undoubtedly woman’s place was at home, when her belongings were at home, also with her husband and her boys and girls under the same roof and sat round the same table. Her real place was where duty called, and where she could exercise her influence for good.

This was the third session of this Parliament and they had had only one lamentable attempt at anything like social legislation. He ventured to say that from what had taken place in other countries, not more advanced in character or civilisation than this, that if women had had the vote in this country he would have been spared what he saw yesterday. Only a few yards from that chamber, in the Gardens, there was a refined woman in a state of collapse, with three little children, and society taking no responsibility. She was in a state of collapse through starvation. They had in this city the most lamentable facts simply because their young people were not being protected by such legislation as women’s vote would secure. He did not look upon the vote as a right, but as a duty to be exercised according to one’s capacity. This was not a question of classes, or of black or white, or a question of property. The question really was, upon what principle should the franchise be held or granted in this country? He objected to any woman in this country being held in political subjection. Referring to the attitude of the Prime Minister, the hon. member remarked that the implication was that the women in South Africa were either inferior to the women in other countries or they were less to be trusted. For character, moral standard, intellect, high ideals, the making and love of home, it seemed to him that the women in this country were just as much to be trusted as the women in any other part of the world. Where women had the greatest freedom, the greatest blessings ensued. There was no evidence to show that women had neglected their homes because of the vote. He thought they were hardly discussing this question on its merits. It was the immobility of some people that did so much damage. They had not the spirit or the moral courage to do what was right. He asked hon. members to bring their moral courage into play and do what was right. He moved the adjournment of the debate.

The debate was adjourned until February 26.