House of Assembly: Vol14 - WEDNESDAY JANUARY 29 1913
from G. P. Esterhuizen, member of Artillery Corps and subsequently Police Force, Orange Free State, for relief.
The petition was referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants and Gratuities.
from C. H. Maasdorp, Departmental Solicitor to the Cape Government Railways, praying that upon his retirement he may be dealt with as a contributor to the Pension Fund as from date of appointment.
The petition was referred to the Select Committee on Pensions. Grants and Gratuities.
from the widow of J. Murphy, for sixteen years constable in the Urban Police of Cape Town, for relief.
The petition was referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants and Gratuities.
from T. A. Jones, teacher Stockdale-street School, Kimberley, for condonation of certain breaks in his service.
The petition was referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants and Gratuities.
from inhabitants of Fauresmith, in support of the petition of G. P. Esterhuizen.
The petition was referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants and Gratuities.
from traders in the Glen Grey district, praying that they may be allowed to increase the extent of their stations.
from M. H. M. Cole, who joined the Cape Civil Service in 1884, and, after 24 years’ service, was retrenched, praying for increase of pension.
The petition was referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants and Gratuities.
from G. T. Hosking, assistant Port Elizabeth Grey Institute Boys’ High School, for condonation of certain breaks in his service.
The petition was referred to the Select Committee on Pensions. Grants and Gratuities.
from J. Aitken and A. Laing, transferred from the Civil Service of Natal to that of the Transvaal, praying that their periods of service in Natal may be taken into consideration in the calculation of their pensions.
The petition was referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants and Gratuities.
from H. J. Saunders, Inspector of the Diamond Detective Department, Kimberley, praying for condonation of a break in his service.
The petition was ref erred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants and Gratuities.
from M. Foster, formerly an officer employed on harbour work in the Union, praying for the recognition of his services under the Associated Boating Company, Ltd., for pension purposes.
The petition was referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants and Gratuities.
from H. W. Prior, trader, of the Priory, Indwe Station, praying for the grant of an additional morgen of ground for the purpose of erecting business premises.
from K. A. H. Houghton, teacher, Fort Hare, Alice, praying for condonation of certain breaks in his service.
The petition was referred to the Select Committee on Pensions. Grants and Gratuities.
from H. G. A. Meldan, late constable in the Breakwater Convict Station, praying for increase of pension.
The petition was referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants and Gratuities.
from A. H. J. Doubell, lifter, Uitenhage Railway Workshops, praying for condonation of a break in his service and that he may be placed on the fixed establishment as from 1908.
The petition was referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants and Gratuities.
Report of examiners on petition for leave to introduce the Accountants Registration Private Bill, reporting that the rules of the House have been complied with. Letter from Under-Secretary for Education, dated December 24, 1912, forwarding lithographic copy of a picture by Mr. Henry Lea, of Brereton, representing the fight at Vecht Lager, Natal, in 1838; contract and papers relating to maintenance of Parliamentary gardens and grounds.
These papers were referred to the Select Committee on Internal Arrangements.
Copies of Proclamations Nos. 145 and 176 of 1912 and of Government Notice No. 1403 of 1912, issued by Department of Lands.
Copy of Convention for Exchange of Money Orders between the Union of South Africa and Hungary, in terms of Post Office Act.
Annual report, Department of Justice, 1911.
Report (with annexures) on the House of Assembly and Joint Parliamentary Establishments by the Clerk of the House (1910—12).
The report was referred to the Select Committee on Internal Arrangements.
asked if he would be in order in putting a question to the Prime Minister?
Has the hon. member acquainted the Prime Minister with the nature of the question?
replied that he had not done so, but he had noticed on frequent occasions that hon. members on the front Opposition benches had been able to interrogate Ministers without giving notice.
The hon. member will have an opportunity of putting his question tomorrow.
*The MINISTER OF FINANCE, in moving the second reading of the Bill to provide for the management of the Customs of the Union of South Africa, said that during the recess they had been able to go more thoroughly into the provisions of the Bill. The Bill differed in some respects from that which was introduced last session; but as it dealt largely with technical matters, he thought it would be advisable for the details to be discussed by a Select Committee. There was nothing novel in the Bill, and there would be found very few provisions that were new to the legislation now in force in South Africa. He did not think it was necessary to traverse the whole substance of the Bill. The first chapter made provisions for the administrative machinery. In it, it would be seen that some of the powers given to the officers in clause 6 might appear to be novel. These powers had, however, been exercised under the prerogative of the Transvaal Parliament, so that the powers thus vested had really been exercised before; but it was now proposed to embody them in this Bill, and so make them statutory powers. Chapter 2 dealt with the importation of goods, giving a list of articles prohibited from importation into this country. Chapter 4 dealt with the offences against smuggling. The penalty clauses would appear to be severe, but there were cases when they had to impose very heavy fines. There was also another provision in section 121, which had the appearance of being novel. It was laid down in the Bill that “it shall not come into operation unless and until the Governor-General has, by Proclamation, declared that it is His Majesty’s pleasure not to disallow the Act.” Under the Merchant Shipping Act provision was made whereby the Dominions could legislate for their own goods, but in regard to legislation dealing with imported goods, such legislation had to be submitted for the consideration of the Crown. He thought it was unnecessary to go further into details at that stage, and would therefore move the second reading of the Bill.
said he agreed with the Minister of the Interior that there was no occasion for a prolonged discussion at that stage on the merits of the Bill. He wished, however, to congratulate the Minister on the excellent manner in which he had elucidated the principles of the Bill. (Laughter.) There were one or two points which no doubt they would be enlightened upon when the measure was discussed in committee. It appeared to him that some of the penalties were extremely drastic and might in reason be amended.
said that the Speaker had ruled that members should confine themselves to the principle of the Bill when speaking to the second reading. He (Mr. Henderson) had been at a loss to discover any principle whatever in the Bill. The hon. Minister had given them a little information about it, but possibly the reason why it had been so limited was that he knew very little about the subject. (Cries of “Oh!”) The Bill had evidently been drafted by officials and naturally they would give themselves as much power as possible. The Minister had also remarked that there was very little difference between the measure and that which was brought before Parliament last session. If that were sc he (Mr. Henderson) failed to see why the Bill last session did not go through. Of course, as they were well aware, the Dumping clauses were the serious objection to the former measure, and he noticed that the Government had wisely cut them out of the amended Bill. But although these objectionable clauses had disappeared for the time being, they would no doubt be found in some other Act of Legislation. He warned hon. members that they would have to be careful when dealing with that question, as legislation of that kind was likely to cause retaliation. Reference had also been made to the very heavy fines proposed to be inflicted for the infraction of certain provisions in the Bill. He thought they had gone to great extremes. He thought the fine of £500 for obstructing officers in the discharge of their duties was absurd, because persons under very innocent circumstances might lay themselves open to the penalty. Similarly excessive fines, with forfeiture of goods, were imposed for what might be quite unintentional mistakes, and yet the power was given to exact such fines. He hoped to see the Bill considerably amended before it became law. He also hoped that something would be done to do away with the hardship inflicted upon merchants by the small fines for minor breaches of the Customs regulations. He urged that the Customs people should deal With these matters in a reasonable and businesslike way. He considered that the practice of giving Customs officers portions of fines inflicted upon people was one that was strongly to be deprecated. By all means let them give promotion to zealous officers, but to give a man a bribe in this way to do his duty was, he thought, carrying things a little too far. He hoped that in committee that clause would be amended. Then, again, he noticed that in the schedule it was proposed to repeal certain sections of the Natal Act, No. 13 of 1899. He should like the Minister to explain why it was proposed that certain of the clauses should not be repealed. It appeared to him that it would be better to repeal the whole of the Act and incorporate such clauses as were required in the new Bill, otherwise it would be impossible for the public to find out how the law stood. He congratulated the Government upon having brought in this consolidating Bill, and supported the second reading.
said he regretted that there was no Dumping clause embodied in this Bill, a clause, for instance, such as that embodied in the Australian Act or inserted in the Bill read in this House for the first time last session, or such a clause as was recommended in the Majority Report of the Commission of Commerce and Industries. He thought such a clause necessary to protect from illegitimate attack by oversea producers, the many industries established in the Union, as soon as our Fiscal policy has been taken under review, revised and amended, so that stability will be guaranteed the S.A. producer. He trusted that at a later stage of the Bill the Minister would see his way to accept such a proposition unless he could assure them beforehand that he would introduce other legislation which would make the necessary provision to protect our producers in the future.
said that he would like to draw the attention of the Minister to what had fallen from the hon. member for Durban, Berea, in regard to these consolidating measures, and not repealing the whole of the Acta. He could assure him that this was causing an infinite amount of trouble. (Hear, hear.) In the old days before the Union the position was difficult enough, but it was infinitely more difficult now because they had Transvaal Acts partly unrepealed, Free State Acts partly unrepealed, Natal Acts partly unrepealed, and Cape Acts partly unrepealed. He would like to suggest that it would be easier and simpler in these consolidating measures instead of saying, as they did, “so much as remains unrepealed at the commencement of this Act,” to repeal these Acts entirely and re-enact such clauses of these Acts as may be required.
*The MINISTER OF FINANCE said it often happened that the law repealed covered a number of other subjects, too. For example the Natal Act of 1899, which had been referred to, dealt with a number of shipping questions which were not germane to the question of the Customs at all, and in repealing that Act he confined himself to the Customs part. He knew that it was very difficult for people to find out what the law was, and he dared say that that was one of the reasons for the existence of their (the legal) profession. (A laugh.) Very few people could find out what the law was. The Select Committee might go into this question and see whether something could be done in regard to this schedule. As to the point raised by the hon. member for Waterberg, he thought it very probable that those clauses would appear in some other Bill, and so he would ask his hon. friend to possess his soul in patience.
The motion for the second reading was agreed to.
The Bill was read a second time.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE moved that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee for consideration and report, the Committee to consist of Messrs. Jagger, Henderson, Rademeyer, Vintcent, Sir Edgar Walton, Mr. Fichardt and the mover.
seconded.
said he would like to move that this House do now adjourn.
Why?
said he wished to call the attention of the Prime Minister who, unfortunately was not in his place, to the fact that a pledge was given to the country, if he were correctly reported in the daily press, that he would take an early opportunity of—
The hon. member is quite out of order. The question now before the House is whether the Bill should go to a Select Committee.
Sir, under the Standing Rules and Orders—
All the hon. member can do is to move that the debate be now adjourned.
I will wait until the debate is over, and then move that the House do now adjourn.
The motion was agreed to.
(to the Speaker): Shall I now be in order in moving the adjournment of the House?
replied that the hon. member could so move.
(proceeding), said that he wished to explain his reasons. About six weeks ago some most important transactions took place in regard to the Government of this country, and they were informed through the daily press that the Government would give Parliament its account of these transactions. Parliament had now been sitting for about a week, there had been complete silence on the subject, and it was of very great importance to the public to know what these transactions were. He wished to ask the Prime Minister to redeem the pledge that had been given. Although they saw in the daily press that all these matters were explained to certain parties in the House, and although there was an acquiescence in the House being kept in the dark as far as first-hand information went, they wanted to know whether there had been a change of policy on the part of the Government, or anything in these transactions to indicate that the policy of the Government in the future was going to be in any way different from what it had been in the past. He accordingly moved that the House do now adjourn.
seconded.
The motion was negatived.
moved: That a Select Committee, to be called “The Waste Lands Committee,” be appointed to consider and report upon all such recommendations for the disposal of Crown Lands, or of servitudes thereon, or conditions connected therewith, as may be submitted by the Government under the provisions of any Act or Law requiring Parliamentary approval, the committee to have power to take evidence and call for papers.
seconded.
The motion was agreed to.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE moved that the Committee consist of eleven members.
seconded.
moved as an amendment that the number be twelve.
seconded.
The amendment was negatived.
called for a division.
Mr. SPEAKER put the question that the word “eleven,” proposed to be omitted, stand part of the motion,
Ayes—83.
Alberts, Johannes Joachim
Alexander, Morris
Baxter, William Duncan
Becker, Heinrich Christian
Berry, William Bisset
Bezuidenhout, Willem Wouter Jacobus Johannes
Blaine, George
Brown, Daniel Maclaren
Clayton, Walter Frederick
Crewe, Charles Preston
Cronje, Frederik Reinhardt
Cullinan, Thomas Major
Currey, Henry Latham
De Beer, Michiel Johannes
De Jager, Andries Lourens
Du Toit, Gert Johan Wilhelm
Fichardt, Charles Gustav
Fitzpatrick, James Percy
Geldenhuys, Lourens
Graaff, David Pieter de Villiers
Griffin, William Henry
Grobler, Evert Nicolaas
Grobler, Pieter Gert Wessel
Harris, David
Heatlie, Charles Beeton
Hewat, John
Hunter, David
Jagger, John William
Joubert, Christiaan Johannes Jacobus
Juta, Henry Hubert
Keyter, Jan Gerhard
Lemmer, Lodewyk Arnoldus Slabbert
Leuchars, George
Long, Basil Kellett
Louw, George Albertyn
Maasdorp, Gysbert Henry
Malan, Francois Stephanus
Marais, Johannes Henoch
Marais, Pieter Gerhardus
Merriman, John Xavier
Meyer, Izaak Johannes
Myburgh, Marthinus Wilhelmus
Neethling, Andrew Murray
Neser, Johannes Adriaan
Nicholson, Richard Granville
Oliver, Henry Alfred
Oosthuisen, Ockert Almero
Orr, Thomas
Phillips, Lionel
Quinn, John William
Rademeyer, Jacobus Michael
Rockey, Willie
Runciman, William
Sauer, Jacobus Wilhelmus
Schoeman, Johannes Hendrik
Searle, James
Serfontein, Hendrik Philippus
Smartt, Thomas William
Smuts, Jan Christiaan
Smuts, Tobias
Steyl. Johannes Petrus Gerhardus
Steytler, George Louis
Struben, Charles Frederick William
Theron, Hendrick Schalk
Theron. Petrus Jacobus George
Van der Merwe, Johannes Adolph P.
Van der Walt, Jacobus
Van Eeden, Jacobus Willem
Van Heerden, Hercules Christian
Van Niekerk, Christian Andries
Venter, Jan Abraham
Vermaas, Hendrik Cornelius Wilhelmus
Vintcent, Alwyn Ignatius
Vosloo, Johannes Arnoldus
Walton, Edgar Harris
Watermeyer. Egidius Benedictus
Watkins, Arnold Hirst
Watt, Thomas
Wessels, Daniel Hendrik Willem
Whitaker, George
Wiltshire, Henry
C. Joel Krige and C. T. M. Wilcocks, Tellers.
Noes—15.
Andrews, William Henry
Boydell, Thomas
Creswell, Frederic Hugh Page
Duncan, Patrick
Fawcus, Alfred
Haggar, Charles Henry
Henderson, Janies
Henwood, Charlie
Macaulay, Donald
Meyler, Hugh Mowbray
Sampson, Henry William
Schreiner, Theophilus Lyndall
Van der Riet, Frederick John Werndly
H. E. S. Fremantle and Walter B. Madeley, Tellers.
The question was accordingly affirmed, and the amendment, proposed by Mr. Sampson, negatived.
The original motion was agreed to.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE moved that the committee consist of Messrs, Heatlie, Becker, Wiltshire, Alberts, Cronje, King, Oliver, Brown, Nathan, Baxter, and the mover.
seconded.
said that if those who arranged these matters did not pay the Labour Party the courtesy of including a representative of it on Select Committees they would be obliged to bring their claim before the House in this fashion. He moved the deletion of the name of Mr. King.
seconded.
appealed to the hon. member for Jeppe to withdraw his motion. He hoped in future, however, that those who arranged these matters would take cognisance of the Labour Party, for whether the House liked it or not it would have to take cognisance of that parity.
I will respond to the appeal and withdraw the motion.
The original motion was therefore agreed to.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE, with leave, amended his notice of motion, and moved: That a Select Committee on Standing Rules and Orders be appointed to consist of twelve members, and that Mr. Speaker, Sir Henry Juta, Sir Bisset Berry, Sir Thomas Smartt, Mr. Henwood, Mr. Merriman, the Minister of Justice, Mr. Griffin, Mr. van Heerden, and the mover be members of the committee.
seconded.
The motion was agreed to.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE gave notice that he would move at a later date for the appointment of two additional members of the committee.
The House adjourned at