House of Assembly: Vol13 - TUESDAY 16 MAY 1989
The sign * indicates a translation. The sign †, used subsequently in the same interpellation, indicates the original language.
General Affairs:
asked the Minister of Justice:
What steps does he envisage to reduce the periods of detention of persons awaiting trial who are detained as prisoners, in order significantly to relieve the position as regards the overcrowding of prisons?
B1009E.INT
Mr Chairman, to provide the correct perspective in regard to the question asked by the hon member for Bethal, we must take cognisance of the following facts.
On 30 June 1978 awaiting trial prisoners comprised 13% of the total prison population—a number of almost 13 000 compared with 98 000. On 30 June 1986 24,4% of the total prison population consisted of awaiting trial prisoners— a total of 24 000 compared with 99 000. After that the number declined considerably. The prison population did in fact increase to 110 000 on 31 March this year. Of this number 18,1% were awaiting trial prisoners—a total of 20 028. This total therefore increased from 19 130 last year to 20 028 this year.
These figures therefore provide a perspective. We must always realise that the situation is not one that only deteriorates, it is one that fluctuates. As regards the number of awaiting trial prisoners, the situation has not in any way reached its highest point.
The following facts will provide more perspective. In regard to lower courts only, a total of 230 390 new criminal cases were recorded there during the period July to September 1988. At the same time the number of awaiting trial prisoners, who at 30 September 1988 had been in custody for longer than three months, totalled 645. Of course there are centres that are experiencing problems, and of course we take certain steps from time to time to deal with those problems. It is possible that the Eastern Cape and Natal can experience situations of this nature at some time or another.
Nevertheless it is also very clear that magistrates and public prosecutors are intent on making certain that the setting of a future trial date remains within limits. The average time lapse in the regional courts during the period July to September 1988 was 40 days, for example. The hon member for Bethal is a legal practitioner. He will therefore realise that this is acceptable. The average time lapse before trial date in the district courts was 18 days.
Let us now consider one of the most active centres in the country, namely the magistrates court centre in Johannesburg. On 30 April 1989 there were 2 152 criminal cases outstanding in the district courts, in regard to which 481 persons were in custody as awaiting trial prisoners. Only six persons had at that stage been in detention for longer than three months in that division.
It is also necessary to give the hon interpellant further perspective in regard to overpopulation. During the past five years we have expanded the available accommodation in prisons by almost 10 000. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, we have appreciation for the steps that have in fact been taken.
We in the CP, however, say that there must be an established policy to have awaiting trial prisoners appear before court as soon as possible. What usually happens is that a person appears in court within 48 hours of being arrested, and then the case is usually postponed for a week or so. However, we say that if the Police, Justice and the practitioners all co-operate it is possible to dispose of trials within approximately 14 days. If the Police have completed their investigation work, there is no reason why a case should await trial for a longer period than 14 days. [Interjections.]
However, it is also a fact that arising out of court judgements the prisoner has to be told that he is entitled to legal representation. It delays matters if they try to provide their own legal representation. I want to suggest in this regard that a person such as the prisoners’ friend, or even the magistrate should notify the prisoner on the day of the first postponement that he should make arrangements for legal assistance if he is entitled to it, and if he is not entitled to it the case will proceed on the next occasion. If we could succeed in doing this we would be making exceptional progress when it comes to the implementation of law and justice. It is not only the accused who will benefit, because we find that witnesses have to come to the courts repeatedly and wait there, only to find that the case has been postponed. My hon colleague will deal with the periods which elapse between arrest or a transferral to a regional court up to and including the trial date.
I think progress has in fact been made. The problem is that we cannot keep on building more prisons. The prisons are approximately 135% occupied. During the year 55% of the prisoners are awaiting trial prisoners. Last year in June approximately 17% were awaiting trial prisoners.
As the hon the Minister said, in September there were 645 persons who had been detained in prison for longer than three months before they were tried. It is probably that this is not only due to the attitude on the part of the prosecution, if I may put it like that. It may be that the legal representatives of the accused also asked for a postponement. I am not criticising one side of the matter or the other. I am simply saying that it is in our interests for the practitioners, the State, the magistrates and the Police all to be intent on having cases tried within 14 days, while the events are still fresh in the minds of the witnesses, because after three months details begin to grow blurred. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, overcrowding of prisons and congestion in our courts are obviously matters which go hand in hand. Congestion in our courts involving considerable delay in bringing people to trial must be a matter of very grave concern.
The administration of justice is by nature a slow process. It has to be slow because it has to be seen that real justice is being done. I believe that the excessive delay in bringing awaiting trial prisoners to trial is not only detrimental to the administration of justice but also imposes an unnecessary burden on our already overcrowded prisons.
I believe that there are far too many instances of people being charged and arrested before the State has satisfied itself that it has sufficient evidence to justify the charge in the first instance. This results in a number of people, who are subsequently found not guilty, having to languish in our prisons for weeks and sometimes months on end. One has the impression that in many cases suspected offenders are arrested and charged first and then the investigating officers apply their minds to the question as to whether they have sufficient evidence to justify the charges.
This, I believe, is a matter which the hon the Minister should investigate. I want to know what steps he is actually taking to ensure that there is proper investigation before charges are made. This I believe is an instruction that could well come from his department and which would alleviate the situation considerably. Neglect or casual preparation of charges must be a prime reason for the delay in bringing people to trial. [Interjections.] I beg your pardon?
[Inaudible.]
No, the hon the Minister has to answer the questions. First of all, I would like to know what the hon the Minister is doing in regard to the question of framing charges, which is important. I would like to know from the hon the Minister what instructions he will give in this regard.
Secondly, the real congestion in our courts relates to a question of manpower. The hon the Minister must tell us what steps he is taking in the appointment of magistrates and prosecutors and in training prosecutors so that this congestion can be alleviated. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, we would, of course, prefer our courts to be less congested. I would like firstly to address the last point that the hon member for Berea made. The hon the Minister of Finance has agreed to the appointment of the following new officers in the Office of the Attorney-General: Six Deputy Attorneys-General, nine Senior State Advocates and 12 State Advocates. This is a total of 27 and should serve to alleviate the situation considerably. We have therefore taken steps as far as the problem of manpower is concerned.
As far as qualifications and training are concerned, I can assure hon members that for the first time in history we have more qualified regional magistrates than we have posts and positions for. This is the first time that this situation has arisen. We are actually getting ahead of the situation. It could, however, change overnight. Naturally the issue of manpower is one that we should address and should always be concerned about.
We are also concerned about the fact that justice delayed is justice denied. I would like to invoke the assistance of the hon member for Berea to get practitioners not to abuse the process of court in order to bring about unnecessary delays. I want to assure hon members that I am very much concerned about the fact that practitioners abuse the right that they have of access to the courts to such an extent that the very process of justice is delayed. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, as my hon colleague said, we have a clear understanding of the problems which the hon the Minister has, including manpower and the heterogeneous composition of the population. However, there are four factors which deserve consideration in this connection. I think the hon the Minister agrees with these factors.
Firstly the judicial process must be brought to finality as soon as possible. In the second place the accused and witnesses must be afforded an opportunity to submit their versions to the court while the events are still fresh in their minds, and it is still possible to test their veracity. Thirdly, prisons which are already overcrowded must not be used to an unnecessary extent to accommodate awaiting trial prisoners. Fourthly magistrates and judges should not be burdened with more cases than they can handle in a fair and just manner.
If we look at page 58 of the latest annual report of the Department of Justice, hon members will see that although, according to statistics furnished by the hon the Minister, these times have been improved, they are still disturbing.
The improvement has been considerable!
Hon members must bear in mind that a week or two have already elapsed before an accused appears in a regional court. In the the Northern Transvaal there is a waiting
period of six to ten weeks, and there are 410 cases per magistrate per year. In Natal the waiting period is four to 10 and a half weeks and there are 313 cases per magistrate. The situation in the Cape Regional Division indicates quite an achievement because there is a delay of one to four weeks, but 562 cases per magistrate were heard. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, I also want to say that it is an achievement to have attained a waiting period of between one to four weeks in the Cape, and that another special achievement is that in a large centre like Johannesburg cases are being disposed of within two to six weeks. In the Northern Transvaal, on the other hand, it takes up to 10 weeks, and in the Free State, in Bloemfontein, it takes up to 15 weeks. If the prisoner has been in detention for that period of time, consideration must be given to whether this should not be automatically deducted from his sentence after he has been found guilty, and should not merely be a factor which is taken into consideration when sentence is imposed.
Mr Chairman, hon members do have a case of course, because one can never achieve the ideal situation. The ideal situation would be to bring the criminal before court immediately after arrest. The hon member knows that that is absurd, because he is after all a practitioner. Is he holding an election speech for prisoners? [Interjections.] Is that how bankrupt the CP has become, so that they are now even addressing themselves to that kind of audience? I think this is definitely a sign of that. We should really appoint a liquidator for that party, for after listening to them I brought them the evidence and they said it was a wonderful situation in this part of the country. They know that I also told them that the situation could change overnight, and then we take the necessary steps. In fact we have come back with the steps we deemed necessary to deal with the situation every time.
The hon member knows that there are various factors that can cause this delay, for example the practitioners and other factors which I dealt with, but there is also the mere fact of a dossier that has not yet been disposed of. The hon member should say whether he is criticising the Police Force or not, because the entire Police Force stands accused here by him of not doing their work. [Interjections.] I think it is a disgrace! [Interjections.]
It is a disgrace that the entire Department of Justice has been indicted here by the CP. I want to appeal to that department and the other departments to pass a condemning judgement on that party on 6 September. [Interjections.]
Order! There was a great deal of variety in this interpellation!
Debate concluded.
asked the State President:
Whether he intends instituting a commission of inquiry into the causes of the ongoing violence and breakdown of law and order in the Greater Pietermaritzburg area; if so, when; if not, why not?
B1012E.INT
Mr Chairman, on behalf of the hon the State President I wish to point out to the hon member that although unacceptable acts of violence occur, there is absolutely no question of a breakdown of law and order in the Greater Pietermaritzburg area.
Regarding the request for a commission, it is not the intention to institute a commission of inquiry at this stage as the main causes for the ongoing violence have been ascertained through thorough research and investigation. The primary need is rather to stabilise the situation as quickly as possible and to bring about a return to normality in order that the culprits can be charged before courts of law.
The prolonged unrest in the area is a source of great concern to both the Government and the South African Police. A commission of inquiry would not solve the problem at this stage; on the contrary, it may become an additional cause for dispute. I will therefore decide on the necessity for a commission of inquiry once the violence has been arrested and normality has returned.
Independent studies by various groups and recent investigations by the South African Police show that the major reason for the conflict is the power struggle between Inkatha and the revolutionary agents of the ANC-SACP alliance namely, the UDF and Cosatu.
Other equally important causes are: Poor socioeconomic circumstances caused, inter alia by unemployment and the population explosion in the area concerned; an internal struggle for leadership within the ranks of Inkatha and the UDF; family and tribal disputes; and criminal elements, chiefly ex-Comrades, who during the initial unrest, were responsible for intimidating and committing crimes against the population and who now continue to make a living from crime.
*On 24 April 1989, in his speech during the debate on the South African Police Vote, the hon the Minister of Law and Order said that an end would now have to be made to this meaningless violence. He also announced certain steps that had to be implemented. This was in fact done, namely a Major-General assumed overall control of the total police function on 22 May 1989; 200 additional members of the Force were deployed in the area; a large number of additional vehicles were sent to the area; additional investigating teams consisting of experienced detectives were co-ordinated to give the best attention possible to the complaints of the inhabitants; a large number of semi-permanent police stations were established, which function on a 24-hour basis and from which vehicle and foot patrols are sent out throughout the entire area; a number of members of the South African Defence Force are being used to support the South African Police; and security branches have been reinforced in order to clamp down on those elements endangering the safety of the public and the preservation of public order.
†The Government is determined to stabilise and bring normality to the situation. However, no guarantee can be given that similar situations will not flare up again as long as there are organisations which propagate and carry out a deliberate policy of political violence and terrorism. There will be no peace until such time as all parties on the South African political scene commit themselves to peaceful negotiation. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, it is actually a pity that that hon Minister had to reply to this question, because it was precisely as a result of the inability of his department to combat that violence that one would have liked to have addressed the hon the State President. [Interjections.]
According to the hon the Minister it is wrong to say that there has been a collapse of law and order. However, over a period of two years a thousand people have been killed and there have been almost no prosecutions, and that is what we are talking about. We are talking about the ordinary prosecution of people committing murder and other acts of violence.
I asked the hon the State President about this almost a month ago, and he was unable to reply. I accept that he had to reply to many other questions in the debate on his Vote, but this is almost a month later and so far no written reply has been received. During that period a further 34 people were killed in March, and so far in May, 12. [Interjections.] It is in fact to investigate that breakdown of law and order that a commission has been requested.
If the powers which the hon the Minister has under the state of emergency are not being used, as he claims, to take steps against the violence that has already been committed, but in order to prevent violence, then these too, must be investigated, because the state of emergency is by now more than a thousand days old. Ostensibly it was intended to put a stop to violence and he put people into detention, and so on, but apparently he put the wrong people into detention; otherwise a thousand people would not have died.
The hon the Minister says everyone must first commit themselves to a negotiated settlement, and this is endorsed by the people. I am referring to a release issued today by Dr Oscar Dhlomo and the hon the Minister of Home Affairs in which it is once again stated that the problem obstructing the negotiating process, as far as KwaZulu is concerned, is the detention of Nelson Mandela and other prisoners.
The same also applies to the negotiating process on a local level, because it is the duty of any state to act in a neutral way to stifle violence so that politics can triumph. Negotiation is not merely something which should happen between groups and the Government. It should also be possible for it to take place between groups, because to solve the problem of South Africa negotiation is imperative. Peaceful negotiation, however, cannot take place while political leaders are in prison, particularly if those political leaders have not committed any acts of violence. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, we agree that there is a labyrinth of theories as to why this violence in fact exists. We agree that the reason is actually situated in the fact that it is a struggle which has at this early stage been unleashed between two warring political groups, a struggle for political power in a so-called post-apartheid society.
As we see it there is the Inkatha idea on the one hand and on the other the idea of the establishment of a Marxistic-socialistic state. A sociologist who made a study of this matter said the following, and to a great extent we agree with it:
We say it is actually impossible—
We say this is what awaits us. We say may this then be a lesson to prove that the Government’s attempt to establish a so-called new nation, a new South Africa, will only lead to further violence and that partition, as indicated here, is in fact the only solution.
Mr Chairman, the hon member for Greytown is again accusing the Police of not having taken action. He went on to say that we should release people who are in detention so that they can participate. He only accuses us, but makes no appeal to the people who are committing the real violence to refrain from doing so.
†The hon State President in a letter addressed to Chief Mapumulu on 2 May 1989 said, inter alia:
*However we shall not hear this from the hon member for Greytown. He simply says that the Police must leave these people alone and that we are catching the wrong people. Inkatha has existed for many years in Natal. Where has this violence suddenly come from now? That is why I should like us to consider who the role players in Natal are. We must see who the people are who are responsible for this ongoing violence. The question which arises is this: Who are involved in this matter and who are the role players?
Inkatha and Chief Minister Buthelezi are role players in this situation. They are accused by the radical left-wing elements of being responsible for the violence. The hon member for Greytown is one of the people who is levelling this accusation at them. [Interjections.] Chief Minister Buthelezi would like to have peace. He would like to have law and order preserved and have development for his people in that area. He and Inkatha are prepared to work for that, as they have done over a period of many years. Why would Inkatha now commit acts of violence in that area? Why would Inkatha have started the violence? They did not start it. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, I would like to start by dismissing the CP first. The words of the CP are absolutely nonsense when they talk about partition. These are Zulus killing Zulus. How does one divide them?
Regarding what the hon Minister said, let us make sure that he understands that the DP is calling on all people on both sides to stop the violence. It has been doing this for a number of years. The interpellation deals with the question of a commission of enquiry. The hon Minister knows that I sat with him in January of last year and asked for that very judicial commission of enquiry to take place, which was supported by the hon member for Houghton at that stage. We went public on it. The hon Minister turned it down well over a year ago.
The number of incidents are now over 5 000 and the hon Minister is aware of that. How many cases have been taken to court and how many people have been found guilty? When I talk to the policemen on the ground they say that the courts are blocked. When I talk to the judicial system they say prosecutions are not being brought. One department is playing the other off. We need to ensure that justice is seen to be done. It is the only way one is going to stop the violence.
The hon Minister’s statement in his debate last week to the effect that the churchmen are being led like innocent lambs to the slaughter whilst they are conducting a peace inquiry, is not helping. The hon Minister should be the one who is supporting these initiatives that are now being agreed on in Natal between the leaders of the Inkatha organisation and the Cosatu and ANC linked organisations to bring about peace. They have all agreed. The hon Minister should publicly support these moves. He should not condemn one side because that is exacerbating the violence that is taking place.
Mr Chairman, I just want to say one thing to the hon the Minister. To come here and try to say, when he knows that it is not true, that I did not ask that side to help, is to condemn incorrectly. He knows that I sat in his office in Pretoria with an agreement from both sides in regard to this matter, and that it was as a result of actions on the part of the hon the Minister himself that this has been made impossible up to now.
Furthermore I want to tell the hon the Minister that I am grateful for the steps he has now announced and which we hope may lead to such an agreement. I will also, in so far as it is within my means, help to monitor this matter and, where necessary, help the people at grass-roots level to build up confidence in the forces which the hon the Minister has now established.
Finally I just want to tell the hon the Minister again, as my hon colleague also said, that he should please make it possible for both parties who have now committed themselves to negotiation to in fact do so. I shall certainly make my contribution there. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, that hon member must keep out of it! [Interjections.] He must stay away; he has already caused so much trouble there. The hon member is now saying that we must use UDF and Cosatu to resolve the violence. [Interjections.] Who are the UDF and Cosatu? They are role players who are the creatures of the ANC. [Interjections.] These two organisations are violent organisations. [Interjections.]
Order! The hon member for Greytown must make fewer interjections.
But the hon the Minister is telling lies!
Order! The hon member for Greytown will withdraw from the Chamber. [Interjections.] The hon member deliberately said the hon the Minister was telling lies. He may not say it, particularly not after I had observed that he should make fewer interjections. The hon member will withdraw from the Chamber.
Mr Chairman, on a point of order: It is customary in this House, as you are well aware, to call upon an hon member to withdraw what he has said before summarily dismissing him. May I suggest or may I ask you kindly to ask the hon member whether he is prepared to withdraw or not before summarily dismissing him from this House?
Order! The hon member must realize that I am charged with the interpretation of the rules and regulations and decorum in this House. The hon member for Greytown was continually making interjections and immediately after I had called upon him to stop doing so he interjected that the hon the Minister was telling lies. I think that is going too far but in view of the fact that the hon member put the interpellation, I will ask him to withdraw that remark.
Mr Chairman, I withdraw it.
Mr Chairman, I hope I can be given a little injury time, otherwise I am not going to complete the match. [Interjections.]
The hon the Minister will receive injury time.
I just want to tell the hon member for Pinetown that he knows why we cannot succeed in arraigning these people before the courts. It is because there is so much intimidation that people do not want to come forward as witnesses. Now the hon member wants us to appoint a commission of inquiry to find witnesses. They will not testify. Intimidation plays a role before a commission and it plays a role before the courts.
That is why we say let us stabilise the situation as we are now doing and then I ask UDF and Cosatu and the hon member for Greytown to stay out of it … [Interjections] because the UDF is the public arm of the ANC. [Interjections.] The ANC stands for violence. They are not prepared to renounce violence. That is why violence is continuing; they do not want peace. After all, we have a great deal of evidence of this …
Order! Even the injury time of the hon the Minister has now expired.
Debate concluded.
†Indicates translated version.
For oral reply:
General Affairs:
asked the Minister of Law and Order:†
Whether any members of the South African Police were present at a public meeting held at Meyerton on or about 20 April 1989 and attended by a certain Minister, whose name has been furnished to the Police for the purpose of the Minister’s reply; if so, (a) how many members were present there and (b) what is the name of the Minister concerned?
B932E
Yes.
- (a) Sufficient police officials to deal with any given situation which could have arisen.
- (b) The name furnished by the hon member.
asked the Minister of National Health and Population Development:†
- (1) Whether a quantity of medicine disappeared at the Stella Hospital recently; if so, (a) when and (b) what is the estimated cost of this medicine;
- (2) whether a charge of theft was laid with the South African Police in this regard; if not, why not;
- (3) whether he will make a statement on the matter?
B940E
- (1) No,
- (a) and (b) fall away;
- (2) falls away;
- (3) no.
Mr Chairman, arising out of the reply of the hon the Minister, the fact that the price of the missing medicine was paid by the doctor concerned was probably the reason for no charge being laid with the Police. Does the Minister agree, however, that the disappearance of the medicine, which has been admitted, is a serious ethical offence? Secondly, the hospital board concerned requested an investigation into the management of medicine in that particular hospital. I am asking the Minister if he knows anything about that.
Mr Chairman, the facts at my disposal, furnished to me by the Cape Provincial Administration, are the following. Firstly, the Stella hospital is privately subsidized. Secondly, it does not have a hospital board, but is managed by an autonomous committee. Thirdly, the standards and the tariffs fall under the Provincial Administration, but nothing else. Fourthly, according to facts at my disposal, a doctor who worked sessions in the hospital bought medicine amounting to R470 from the hospital.
asked the Minister of Defence:
Whether any members of the South African Defence Force and the South West African Territorial Force who belong to units that (a) have been demobilised since 1 April 1989 and (b) are still to be demobilised are being retained in South West Africa/Namibia on full or partial pay; if so, (i) how many, (ii) for what purpose and (iii) for what period?
B941E
Although elements of the South West African Territorial Force were demobilised in accordance with the settlement plan, the infiltration by heavily armed Swapo forces necessitated certain re-mobilisation. Negotiations are at present being conducted to re-instate the settlement plan as it was on 31 March 1989. It is for this reason that I can at present not reply to the hon member’s questions. (a) and (b) Fall away.
asked the Minister of National Health and Population Development:
- (1) Whether he and/or his Department has received any representations with regard to the potential danger of the use of so-called skin-lighteners; if so, what is the nature of these representations;
- (2) whether he is considering taking any steps with regard to the distribution of these products; if so, what steps; if not, why not?
B942E
- (1) Yes, the banning of skin-lighteners was requested;
- (2) yes, I have already banned the sale and distribution of skin-lighteners with effect from 1 January 1991.
asked the Minister of Agriculture:
- (1) Whether, with reference to the now withdrawn civil case on hormonal herbicides which was before the Natal Supreme Court, his Department supplied any aid and/or information to either of the parties then involved; if so, (a) to which party, (b) what information and (c) why;
- (2) whether he and/or his Department has at any time considered or discussed with any parties the question of compensation for damage caused by the use of hormonal herbicides; if so, what was considered or discussed?
B945E
- (1) Yes. (a), (b) and (c) The relevant scientific information as well as the results and findings of the advisory committee on the use of hormone herbicides were made available to both parties in order to facilitate the objective evaluation of the damage to certain vegetable crops allegedly caused by hormone herbicides.
- (2) Yes, compensation was discussed with the farmers concerned and the Natal Agricultural Union but could not be favourably considered. However, assistance to farmers facing cash flow problems as a result of the damage so caused, was discussed with the Land and Agricultural Bank of South Africa and the Department of Agriculture and Water Supply in the Administration: House of Assembly. In the case of the Department, applications by such farmers for the consolidation of their debts will be considered as sympathetically as possible within the framework and norms in terms of the Agricultural Credit Act, 1966 (Act 26 of 1966).
Mr Chairman, arising from the reply of the hon the Deputy Minister, did I understand him correctly to say that, whilst there is a suggestion that the Land and Agricultural Bank may aid in the cash flow situation of farmers, this department has said that it is not prepared to consider compensation for the farmers’ losses?
Mr Chairman, that it is correct. We do not consider compensation.
asked the Minister of Law and Order:
With reference to his reply to Question No 137 on 6 April 1989 in connection with the alleged abduction and murder of three persons near Howick in December 1986, (a) what are the names of the persons of whom particulars and photographs have been published by the South African Police and (b) what is meant by the phrase “in the usual manner” as used in this reply?
B946E
(a) and (b)
Particulars of the persons concerned have been circulated country-wide by means of an internal Police publication. However, it is at this stage not desirable to make known the identities of the persons, as it may jeopardize the investigation.
Mr Chairman, arising out of the reply of the hon the Minister, I just want to ask him if he is aware of the organization to which these people who committed the murder, belonged. I also want to ask him if he is aware that after these murders had been committed, a number of persons were arrested and that after they had been in the police station, their bloodied weapons were handed back to them.
Mr Chairman, I said that the investigation is continuing, and naturally, I am not prepared and able to say at this stage who the persons are, and to what belonged to, or to comment on the further particulars furnished by the member. However, we shall go into it and then give him a reply if he wishes to ask again.
Mr Chairman, further arising out of the reply of the hon the Minister, I want to ask whether he is prepared to give me the names of the persons on a personal basis so that I may try to help.
The reply is no.
asked the Minister of Transport Affairs:
- (1) Whether he has received an actuarial report on any pension fund of the South African Transport Services; if so, on which fund;
- (2) whether this report showed any deficit; if so, what amount of money is involved?
B947E
- (1) The evaluations of the New Superannuation Fund and the Pension Fund for Non-White employees have already been received. In view of the fact that the benefits payable and the contributions to the Funds are the same, it has in principle been decided to amalgamate the Funds in the foreseeable future.
It is therefore necessary at this stage to obtain the actuarial evaluation of such a joint Fund. The actuaries are busy therewith and it is expected shortly, after which the particulars for the joint Fund will be furnished. - (2) Falls away.
asked the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning:
Whether, since 1 January 1988, his Department has received any applications for exemptions from the provisions of the Group Areas Act, No 36 of 1966, in respect of residential premises in the Cape Town Gardens constituency; if so, (a) how many such applications had been (i) granted and (ii) refused as at the latest specified date for which information is available and (b) what were the reasons for (i) granting and (ii) refusing each application?
B949E
This matter vests in the Administrator of the Cape Province and he has furnished the following reply:
— No. Rest of question falls away.
Mr Chairman, arising from the reply of the hon the Deputy Minister, I would like to ask him two things. Firstly, I would like to ask him when his department or the provinces are going to transfer the handling of applications to the Department of Public Works, as was announced previously?
Secondly, I would like to ask the hon the Deputy Minister why the province has written to me on various occasions giving me copies of applications for permits, for which he now says there are none.
Mr Chairman, according to the hon the Minister’s announcement last week the Commission for Administration is presently investigating the transfer of certain functions from the provincial administrations to the own affairs administrations. The Administration: House of Assembly has already indicated that it is prepared to accept the transfer of the permit function from the provinces. That will happen, of course, as soon as the Commission for Administration has completed its investigations.
As far as the second question is concerned the problem is that the hon member has phrased his question incorrectly. There is no provision in the Act for exemptions in terms of the Act; there is only a provision for permits. If the hon member phrases his question correctly he will get the correct answer. That is the whole point.
Mr Chairman, further arising out of the hon the Deputy Minister’s reply, may I ask him whether if in fact one can apply for a permit to be exempted from the provisions of the Act, that is not an application for an exemption from the Act in respect of oneself and one’s occupation of a property?
Secondly, may I ask the hon the Deputy Minister, while he knows full well what the question is asking, whether it makes good sense to waste the time of the House and the time of the officials by coming up with smart-alecky replies?
Mr Chairman, all I would like to indicate to the hon member — this has also happened in the past — is that he should phrase his questions correctly so that we can give him a proper reply. There are no provisions in the Act for exemptions as such. [Interjections.] The point is that we are talking about permits. I can give the answer to the hon member. The answer is, yes, there were applications. The replies to the other questions are: (a)(i) four; (a)(ii) two; (b)(i) no objections were received and (b)(ii) numerous objections were received.
The sign * indicates a translation. The sign † used subsequently in the same interpellation, indicates the original language.
Own Affairs:
asked the Minister of Education and Culture:
Whether there is still salary differentiation in his Department between men and women at post level 1; if so, what steps is he taking to eliminate such differentiation?
B1014E.INT
Mr Chairman, the hon member for Pinetown has asked whether there is still salary differentiation in my department between men and women at post level 1. The hon member is aware that general policy regarding salaries and conditions is the responsibility of the hon the Minister of National Education. However, the hon member is also aware that the hon the Minister of National Education and the various education Ministers have a close working relationship and that discussions on the service conditions of teaching personnel are held regularly. Apart from the discussions on salary matters and other conditions of service that I have with the Federal Council of Teachers’ Associations in South Africa from time to time, further discussions on salaries and conditions of service regularly take place between myself, representatives of the organised teaching profession and my colleague the hon the Minister of National Education. Furthermore, as the Minister responsible for the Department of Education and Culture in the House of Assembly, I make inputs in response to salary matters in accordance with the recognised procedures.
*The Cabinet decided as long ago as 1981 that all salary disparities between male and female teachers would be eliminated. It is generally admitted that considerable progress has since then been made in this sphere. At present the only salary disparity that exists is between CS educators on post level 1 in the qualification categories D and lower. On all the other levels parity already exists. To answer the question therefore I will say yes, there is still partial salary disparity between men and women on post level 1. This is nevertheless a sphere in which, in spite of difficult economic circumstances, significant progress has nevertheless been made, as will become clearly apparent from the following milestones.
On 1 April 1981 all disparity on post levels 4 and above was eliminated. On 1 April 1983 disparity on post level 3 was eliminated. On 1 October 1984 disparity on post level 2 was eliminated and on 1 November 1987 disparity on post level 1 in categories E, F and G was eliminated.
The fact that so much progress has already been made testifies to the extent to which the Government is in earnest about achieving parity.
Extensive research has already been done on the financial implications which further parity would entail. The hon the Minister of National Education has already addressed a request to his advisory bodies to submit to him an affordable strategy for the phasing out of further disparity. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, at post level 1 in the teaching profession in this hon Minister’s department 91% of the posts are held by women. That reflects against all education in this hon Minister’s department where 64% of posts are held by women—44% married and 20% unmarried. It is precisely at the point of category C and D where most of those women find themselves in this hon Minister’s department.
When we have a look at the actual discrimination that takes place on the basis of salary there is no way it can be defended. I do not think the hon the Minister and the Cabinet wish to defend it any longer. This has got to come to an end. I want to quote from Die Vrystaatse Onderwyser, Desember 1988:
What does it amount to? It amounts to when a teacher starts with a post level one, C qualification she receives a salary 17% less than that of a man. When she ends up in that level she earns 12% less.
In category D it is even worse. Here on C one has a distinction between women who may have gone to university and those who have not. A woman who goes to university will receive a salary that is equivalent to the man’s scale on category C—that is, she is 15% below that of a man on D.
In all these cases the salary disparity is between R200 and R270 per month against the women. I believe that with the best will in the world the hon the Minister and the Cabinet can make efforts to get rid of this. The figure was floated that originally R480 million would be required to eliminate this. That is not the figure today and we know it is not.
We know that we could add to the salary disparity that there is a degree of unhappiness regarding, for example, the housing subsidy we do not want to discuss that at length—or the PSMAA, or the 6% to 8% deductibility, or the fact that there is no widow’s pension.
We believe that this discrimination has got to be eliminated and that it has got to be eliminated with all due speed. The hon the Minister has indicated that the last elimination took place— categories E, F and G—in November 1987. That is a year and a half ago. We believe that with all due speed—and that means in the next tax year—that we have finally* to eliminate sex discrimination in salary, pay scales and conditions of service throughout the entire Public Service but particularly in this hon Minister’s department.
Mr Chairman, I am very pleased that the hon member for Pinetown raised this matter again this afternoon. It is the standpoint of the CP that women in education who possess the same qualifications and occupy the same positions with the same responsibilities as their male counterparts should also receive the same remuneration.
We must take note of the fact that education today is to a very large extent dependent on women. Consequently a large percentage of teachers in South Africa, as the hon member for Pinetown indicated, are women. The part they have played over the years in the education of our people is inestimable.
With all the resignations we are at present experiencing, particularly of male teachers, the part played by women in education is becoming more important. While the CP, for pedagogical reasons, is concerned about the large number of resignations by male teachers, we are at the same time grateful for the competent and well-equipped women who are prepared to devote their lives to this noble profession.
In 1986, before the personnel of technical colleges and schools for special education were added to the establishment of the Transvaal Education Department, there were 9 669 men and almost 19 000 women teaching in the Transvaal schools. This number has in the meantime diminished and is at present 8 901 men, while the number of women has increased to 20 103. In teacher’s training colleges in the Transvaal there are at present only 2 122 male bursary holders, compared with 5 563 women. In future, too, we will therefore become increasingly dependent on women in education. The Government is obsessed with salary parity between Whites and non-Whites, regardless of whether the same services are being rendered or whether the same productivity is being maintained. If there is one sphere, however, in which salary parity can with justification be established, it is between men and women in education. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, it is such a pity that the hon member for Brits, towards the end of his contribution, again dragged the disparity between or the endeavour to achieve salary parity between Whites and non-Whites into this debate. [Interjections.]
Of course it is the truth. Nor do we make any secret of it. We say it is fair to pay the same salary to all those who bear the same responsibility and do the same work. [Interjections.] But why must he drag this matter in again here for political reasons? The fact of the matter is that what both the hon member for Pinetown as well as the hon member for Brits said is of course correct.
As long ago as 1981 this department committed this department, and in fact the Government itself, to the elimination of disparity. Naturally I also have the greatest appreciation for the services being rendered by women in education— not only today, but over the decades. There is no dispute about that.
The fact remains that this Government has a good record in respect of the elimination of disparity. There are various matters in the sphere of conditions of service and salaries within the teaching profession which were not satisfactory, but which were rectified during the past few years. The hon member for Pinetown would be the first to concede—after all he knows about these things—that tremendous progress has been made.
I indicated here what progress has been made. Consequently there must be no doubt about the fact that this Government did everything in its power to try to eliminate that disparity. I want to tell the hon member that it is going to cost an estimated R500 million plus to eliminate that disparity which still exists in category D and lower down on post level 1. The hon member may possibly ask what R500 million is. The amount of R500 million is a great deal of money when one does not have it. When one does have it, of course it is a drop in the ocean. [Interjections.] The fact of the matter is nevertheless that this Government has proved time and again that it has the interests of the teachers—men and women—at heart. It has proved this. All I can say to the hon members today is that we do agree that disparity must be eliminated. In the second place, we are continuing to work towards that end. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, this debate can easily be summarised by concluding that this hon Minister hates women and the hon members of the CP hate Black people! [Interjections.]
Fortunately for both those categories I can state that the DP loves them both. [Interjections.] When one looks at this question of discrimination, this differentiation when it comes to the payment of salaries to women, I believe there are three areas one can look at.
The first one is the discriminatory aspect in the entitlement of women teachers to equal pay. I do not believe we are talking now of an eight-year process, let alone all its history. Justice has, however, not as yet been done. It was said in another context that justice delayed is justice denied. That applies in this case as well.
Secondly, I believe it is important that the Government decides whether teachers, including women teachers, are a scarce and valuable resource or not. If they do not believe so, then they should be honest and say they have too many of them; they do not need them and they are not going to overpay them. They should tell them then that if some of them leave it is simply bad luck.
The third element is the insult, the element of being taken for granted which undoubtedly deprives women teachers of some of their motivation and scares off some of the potentially best teachers from taking up this profession. The reason always given is that there is no money, and we have the normal equation: The NP equals apartheid, which equals creeping poverty except for those on the gravy train. We have no money for this inequality in education but we have enough money to spend more than R1 million per year on a multiplicity of Ministers of Education, just to give one example. We need R500 million, the hon the Minister said, to close this gap but we leave R1,5 billion lying on the table in empty classroom spaces so we can have segregation. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, the hon the Minister is well aware that one of the constant points where there has been a complaint against this department and against the Department of National Education in terms of their policies, is that they have never indicated a timetable.
We are already, as the hon member for Cape Town Gardens has pointed out, into the eighth year and soon we will have the tenth anniversary of the Cabinet decision to eliminate disparities and still the R500 million will either have to have been found or one will have to raise up to between R700 million to R1 000 million to meet that disparity. It is getting bigger every year and this Minister knows it. So he and his hon Cabinet colleagues had better decide that they are going to solve this in the next financial year or the problem will simply get bigger.
The hon member for Brits has said that Black parity should be brought about. It is also true of women. If one looks at the position of for example Black women who are in categories AA or ZA, one sees that their position is even worse. They are part of that R500 million which needs to be found to reach parity between a man and a woman. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, it almost seems to me as though these two hon colleagues on the opposite side are becoming very serious about this matter. The fact is …
You should be married to a teacher!
I now understand the hon member for Pinetown very well. [Interjections.] I shall now make my contribution with extra motivation to make sure that things go better for the hon member at home.
Have a sex-change operation! [Interjections.]
The hon member for Pinetown argued that our timetable was a little bit too long. He says we must take a decision now.
Surely he knows that that is not possible. He knows that when it comes to the spending of public funds there are at least various factors that have to be considered in various sectors. The hon member must accept that my hon colleague, the Minister of National Education and I, as well as all other education ministers in other departments, have a burning desire to eliminate those disparities, but that this must always be done within the limits of what funds are available.
I want to argue a point with the hon member for Cape Town Gardens. He said we should decide whether we have an oversupply of teachers or not. He asked whether we should not get rid of those teachers. If the hon member is perhaps trying to insinuate that we are keeping disparity so that we can force them to leave in that way, I say it is disgraceful! [Interjections.]
However I do not think that was the hon member’s intention, because I think one only finds good teachers in this country. Sometimes one finds those who are better, but one always finds only good ones. We should like to keep each one of the good teachers, but we are also dealing with the realities of this country. If we have resignations and we cannot make use of the services of certain teachers any further, we are always sorry about that. [Time expired.]
Debate concluded.
†Indicates translated version.
For oral reply:
Own Affairs:
asked the Minister of Education and Culture:
- (1) Whether he has had any meetings over the past three months with the Minister of National Education in connection with the (a) financing of his Department and (b) levying of tuition fees; if not, why not; if so, (i) what was the outcome of these meetings and (ii) when did each take place;
- (2) whether he will make a statement on the matter?
B950E
- (1)
- (a) Yes,
- (b) yes,
- (i) regarding the financing of my Department decisions taken in accordance with existing procedures, were taken with my full support. Regarding the levying of tuition fees informal discussions were held and the Minister of National Education is kept informed of the ways the matter is handled by my Department,
- (ii) discussions of a formal nature e.g. during meetings of the Committee of Education Ministers, as well as personal interviews between the Minister of National Education and myself take place on a regular basis;
- (2) no.
Mr Chairman, arising from the reply of the hon the Minister, can he give us an indication as to whether the question of the levying of tuition fees has been discussed in the Committee of Heads of Education on the basis of all departments levying such fees?
Mr Chairman, according to Schedule 1 of the Republic of South Africa Constitution Act 1983, is it up to each of the different departments to which the hon the member has referred, to decide and see whether it can collect certain funds in the interest of the population group it serves. The possibility of these tuition fees is an idea which originated in my department and we discussed it in the White Ministers’ Council. We did not discuss this matter on the level of the Committee of Education Ministers, because it stands to reason that it might not necessarily belong there. Note that I say it does not necessarily belong there. It can start at a separate department.
For written reply:
General Affairs:
asked the Minister for Administration and Privatisation:†
(a) Which State Departments and organizational components referred to in section 6(1) of the Public Service Act, No 111 of 1984, rendered financial or any other assistance to the Great Trek Festival of the FAK and (b) what approximately did this assistance amount to in each case?
B401E
(a) Administration: House of Assembly |
(b) Financial Assistance: Other assistance: |
R724 778,00 R19 296,00 |
Department of Public Works and Land Affairs |
Other assistance: |
R19 351,40 |
South African Police |
The costs involved in the participation by the South African Police in the Great Trek Festival of the FAK, and which consisted mainly of displays given by the various branches of the Force, are not calculated separately because it is regarded as normal actions to promote a positive image of the Force and for recruiting and can therefore not be furnished. |
|
South African Defence Force |
Other assistance: |
R14 431,00 |
Provincial Administration of the Cape of Good Hope |
Other assistance: |
R2 300,00 |
Bureau for Information |
Other assistance: |
R850,16 |
asked the Minister of National Education:
Whether any Government Department has underwritten any international sporting events involving a certain person, whose name has been furnished to the Minister’s Department for the purpose of his reply, and any companies or holding companies in which this person has an interest; if so, (a) in respect of the latest specified period of 10 years for which information is available, which (i) events, (ii) Government Departments and (iii) companies were involved and (b) what is the name of the person concerned?
B632E
- (a)
- (i) Yes. Limited organisational assistance was rendered to professional boxing events in three occasions — in October 1979 during the Coetzee/ Tate fight at Loftus Versfeld, Pretoria; in October 1980 during the Coetzee/Weaver fight and in July 1985 during the Crous/Qawi fight. The latter two events were held in Bophuthatswana.
- (ii) To my knowledge only the Department of National Education was involved.
- (iii) Southern Sun Promotions and Sun International Promotions.
- (b) Mr S Kerzner
asked the Minister for Administration and Privatisation:
(a)(i) At which universities and (ii) in which faculties are recipients of Public Service bursaries currently studying in South Africa and (b) in respect of what date is this information furnished?
B639E
- (a)
- (i) University of Cape Town
University of Stellenbosch
University of the Western Cape
University of Port Elizabeth
Rhodes University
University of Natal
University of Durban-Westville
University of Zululand
University of the Witwatersrand
Rand Afrikaans University
Potchefstroom University for Christian Higher Education
University of Pretoria
University of South Africa
University of the North
University of the Orange Free State
University of Fort Hare
Medical University of South Africa (MEDUNSA)
University of Bophuthatswana
University of Venda
Vista University - (ii) Faculties:
Arts
Natural Sciences
Agricultural Science Law
Economic and Managerial Sciences Veterinary Science
Education
Medicine
Dentistry Engineering
Forestry
- (i) University of Cape Town
- (b) 19 April 1989
361. Mr P C CRONJÉ asked the Minister of Transport Affairs:
What percentage of (a) first-class and (b) second-class long distance rail passengers travelled at Government-subsidized fares in 1988?
B763E
(a) and (b) Nil. (For the financial year 1988/ 89)
asked the Minister for Administration and Privatisation:
How many residents of each of the (a) self-governing territories and (b) independent Black states were employed in the Republic by the South African Government in 1988?
B779E
No distinction is made in the Public Service for purposes of appointment between residents or citizens of the Republic and those of the self-governing territories or the independent Black states. On 30 September 1988, 730 828 persons were employed by departments listed in the Public Service Act, 1984. To answer the question the individual records of all these personnel would have to be scrutinised. The desired information is therefore not readily available.
Own Affairs:
asked the Minister of Education and Culture:
Whether any (a) primary and (b) secondary schools have closed down in the last 10 years; if so, (i) how many schools in each province and (ii) what maximum number of pupils could these schools accommodate at the time they closed down?
B872E
Yes,
(a)(i) |
(ii) |
(b)(i) |
(ii) |
|
Cape |
130 |
* |
2 |
* |
Natal |
14 |
4 766 |
2 |
1 260 |
OFS |
29 |
4 600 |
3 |
1 250 |
Transvaal |
23 |
3 362 |
0 |
0 |
* Information not available.
asked the Minister of Education and Culture:
Whether any teacher-training colleges have closed down during the past 10 years; if so, (a) how many and (b) what maximum number of students could each such college accommodate at the time it closed down?
B873E
No, but three teacher-training colleges namely, the Natal College of Education, Graaff-Reinet College of Education and Denneoord (Stellenbosch) have been converted from initial training colleges to colleges for further training,
(a) and (b) fall away.
asked the Minister of Education and Culture:
Whether, with reference to his reply to Question No 7 on 6 March 1989, his Department has as yet received statistics for 10 March 1989; if not, why not; if so, what was the (a) total potential capacity of, and (b) enrolment in, (i) primary and (ii) secondary schools in each province as at that date?
B874E
Yes,
(a) |
(b) |
|||
(i) |
(ii) |
(i) |
(ii) |
|
Cape |
160 900 |
134 400 |
122 501 |
91 021 |
Natal |
83 375 |
67 017 |
55 001 |
42 099 |
OFS |
55 330 |
35 415 |
42 000 |
28 861 |
Transvaal |
397 848 |
245 064 |
287 194 |
203 075 |
†Indicates translated version.
For oral reply:
Own Affairs:
Question standing over from Tuesday, 9 May 1989:
The CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE: Order! In spite of the fact that I kindly requested hon members a few days ago to be present in the House when their questions are being replied to, the hon member for Durban Suburbs is not here today.
asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:
(a) How many cases of damage to school buildings occurred in 1988, (b) in which areas were these schools situated and (c) what is the total estimated amount of the damage?
C91E
- (a) 1088
- (b) Country-wide
- (c) R643 876
New question:
— Education and Culture.
[Reply standing over.]
For written reply:
General Affairs:
asked the Minister of Transport Affairs:
- (1) Whether any sheds or warehouses are vacant in Port Elizabeth Harbour; if so, (a) how many and (b) to what uses were they put previously;
- (2) whether it is his intention to put these buildings to other uses; if so, to what other uses;
- (3) whether any applications have been received from outside bodies or organizations to lease such sheds or warehouses from the State; if so, (a) from what bodies or organizations, (b) when and (c) to what effect?
C90E
(1) Yes |
||
(a) |
Four |
|
(b) |
Shed No 1 |
— Cargo shed |
Shed No 12 |
— Initially as Cargo shed and thereafter for the parking of fork lift trucks |
|
Shed No 13 |
— Various purposes in the past but most recently as depot for the Electrical Department |
|
Basement of Shed 10/11 |
— Pre-cooling of fruit |
|
(2) Yes. |
||
Shed No 1 |
— Storage of crane spare parts and other warehousing purposes on a temporary basis |
|
Shed No 12 |
— Promotional purposes of Port Elizabeth Harbour e.g. Harbour Festival, exhibitions and regattas |
|
Shed No 13 |
— To be used as “hive of industries” in terms of the Burggraaf Committee’s findings. |
|
Basement of Shed 10/11 |
— Available for leasing. |
|
(3) |
Yes. |
|
(a) |
(b) |
(c) |
Cadbury’s |
From time to time (telephonically) |
Lease as and when required |
S.A. Breweries |
From time to time (telephonically) |
Lease as and when required |
Epol Feeds |
From time to time (telephonically) |
Lease as and when required |
Lusitania Fishing |
19 May 1988 |
Has leased temporarily |
Blastrite |
16 June 1986 |
Leasing at present |
S.A. Sugar Distributors |
Verbally |
Negotiating |
Index Trade Fair |
Verbally |
Negotiating |
S.A. Fire-Service |
17 April 1989 |
Negotiating |
Institute Soekor |
1987 |
Not taken up |