Mr Chairman, I should like to refer this afternoon to the services my department renders to the community with regard to the promotion of culture. I once again do so against the background of my department’s theme for 1989, viz “Education and Culture Preserves and Renews”. In spite of the fact that the promotion of culture implies preservation, my department is undertaking a whole series of innovative campaigns which all contribute to the great revival of cultural activities that can be seen among our people country-wide, and which I am very happy about.

The urbanisation of South Africans during the past 40 years makes considerable demands on cultural organisations. Organisations and recreational activities which were effective in the rural community in the past are not necessarily appropriate to the needs of the city dweller. To keep the city dweller involved in cultural activities is probably one of the greatest challenges facing those who promote culture today. Consequently I am pleased to be able to report that the 1988-89 financial year’s appropriation of R23 065 million for cultural affairs shows a dividend of great progress in the cultural sphere. In view of this success, the increase of approximately 15% for the present financial year is probably fully justified.

In 1988 more than 1 000 youth projects were presented with the co-operation of my department. These projects were attended by more than 353 000 young people. What is particularly pleasing is that since 1985, the first year after the establishment of the Administration: House of Assembly, there has been a growth of approximately 30% in the number of youth projects.

The youth projects presented by cultural organisations are evidence of the good partnership that exists between the Government and the community. There is a great deal of emphasis on leadership training, the fostering of talents, the appreciation of what is one’s own and also human relations.

I want to avail myself of the opportunity to express my thanks and appreciation to the Land Service leaders and Land Service friends who lead this youth movement which falls under my department. Without their unselfish service, this fine youth movement would not have been able to attain the successes and highlights obtained during the past 75 years, which we are justifiably proud of, and the Land Service movement would not have been capable of making 1989 a year of festivals. As part of the festivities of this movement the Post Office will issue a commemorative stamp in September, for which we are very grateful.

Modern society makes heavy demands on the family’s traditional functions. The family therefore has to be equipped to continue to function effectively under these conditions. Consequently I am pleased that the Christelike Maatskaplike Raad, the Family Association of South Africa, as well as other organisations that are active in this sphere, present annual courses for adults, with the co-operation of my department, in family education and marital enrichment. In addition projects are arranged for women in order to equip them for their role as homemakers. What is particularly pleasing is that the demand for these projects is increasing, because from 1985 to 1988 the number of projects increased from 507 to 806 and the number of people attending them increased from 16 128 to 30 466.

This service for women is supplemented by a wide range of publications in the sphere of homemaking. In 1988, 33 publications appeared with a total distribution of 75 000. The 19 radio talks which served to introduce these publications were heard by as many as 178 000 people during a single broadcast.

These contributions made by my department, along with intercultural projects and finishing courses for women which are presented with the co-operation of organisations such as Women for South Africa and the Vroue-Landbou-Unie, therefore contribute to inculcating preparedness in women and to consolidating family life.

I am proud to say that we do not neglect the rural areas. Numerous cultural projects are presented throughout the rural areas. In this connection one can refer specifically to the North-Western Transvaal border area. During the period between 1985 and 1988, R200 000 was made available for the development of sports and recreational facilities in the area.

At the same time more than 120 projects were presented. With the co-operation of my department, a cultural conference was arranged at Ellisras, at which there was penetrating reflection on the joint task of the State and community in respect of the promotion of culture in the area. In addition an amount of R400 000 has been made available to the Northern Transvaal Regional Council for Cultural Affairs for the development of a camping site at Ellisras.

*The advancement of culture within a community is not possible without the Regional Councils for Cultural Affairs. These councils which are representative of their respective communities, play an important role in determining needs and initiating cultural activities. I wish to express my appreciation towards the members of the eight regional councils because, without their contributions, the Regional Offices for Cultural Affairs would not have been involved in 3 124 cultural projects country-wide over the past year.

These projects reached about 800 000 people. During the past year the financial aid given to these projects more than doubled to the extent of R3 616 746 in 1988. For example, attendance at the projects aimed at advancing serious music more than tripled during 1988, resulting in an attendance figure of 121 590 people. These initiatives deserve our congratulations. The regional councils as well as the management councils of the declared cultural institutions create an important link between the State and the community.

After the Old Raadsaal was restored to its former glory, the Ministers’ Council felt that it should, amongst other things, be used for prestigious cultural events. The Council for Cultural Affairs, Northern Transvaal, has undertaken annually to present a cultural project alternately in English and Afrikaans.

This year’s Old Raadsaal Project celebrated the English-speaking community’s contribution to South African culture and was entitled “Beauty in Truth”. As botanical art, an area in which South Africa is a world leader, was the central theme around which the project was created, the proceedings saw the launching of a limited numbered edition of a portfolio of flower paintings taken from the journals of Cythna Letty.

The seven declared cultural institutions which form an important component of the cultural infrastructure of my department, play a vital role in the conservation of our cultural heritage.

The responsibility for a further 37 museums will be accepted shortly. An “own” museum structure and policy will ensure that this important aspect of own affairs also comes into its own. For this reason too, it is essential that efforts are continually made to acquire and to conserve objects and properties of cultural historic significance. It therefore gives me pleasure to be able to refer to the considerable extensions to three of the declared institutions during the 1988-89 financial year.

• —The South African Cultural History Museum acquired two ships as additions to the South African Maritime Museum. They are the SAS Somerset, a cargo boat, and the Alwyn Vintcent which is a steam tugboat. The State also succeeded in acquiring the National Mutual Building in Cape Town which will solve the accommodation problems of this museum.
• —The art collection belonging to the National Cultural History and Open-Air Museum has been considerably extended as a result of the purchase of a considerable part of the Steynberg Collection.
• —The Voortrekker Museum in Pietermaritzburg will soon have full responsibility for the Majuba farm. This will follow upon the signing of a lease between the Administration: House of Assembly and Potchefstroom University.

The more than 820 000 visitors who visited the seven declared cultural institutions over the past year are concrete proof that we still attach great importance to the conservation of culture. For this reason everything possible is done on both local and provincial level to help the institutions and museums which have been transferred to my department to fulfil their primary functions of collecting, conserving, researching and educating.

*The subsidisation and professional support of local libraries which were identified as White own affairs will also be transferred from the provincial administrations to my department. These libraries, as natural service points, render an important service to local communities, and as an important link between communities and the regional offices for cultural affairs, they will be able to take cognisance of all cultural activities that take place within the context of the community, and of needs and deficiencies that exist in the sphere of culture. Consequently it will be possible to determine needs much more effectively.

By the addition of the library service function, local authorities under whose control libraries function will be directly involved in the department’s function of promoting culture, and liaison will be effected on an official level between the local authorities and the regional offices for cultural affairs. This will lead to the maximum utilisation of the cultural infrastructure, which consists of regional offices, museums, libraries and their advisory boards, to the advantage of the community.

My department is proud of its involvement in the three national festivals that took place in 1988. The total contribution by the Department of Education and Culture at present amounts to R3,903 million, whereas R132 000 with regard to the Diaz festival must still be paid out. More than half a million people were involved in the festivals. The year 1988 was indeed a glorious year of festivals.

Since the establishment of the Administration: House of Assembly, we have succeeded in expanding the cultural services of my department in such a way as to promote and protect the cultural property of the Whites. This is possible only thanks to men and women who are prepared constantly to seek new ways of preserving our spiritual values for posterity and to launch innovative campaigns in order to keep cultural involvement alive within the dynamics of the community.

I want to thank everyone who is involved in the cultural activities of my department, and congratulate them on the encouraging progress that has been made during recent years. I want to express my special thanks to the chairmen of the regional councils, the directors of the declared cultural institutions and their enthusiastic and knowledgeable staff, and to every official in the regional offices for cultural affairs for their tireless work, which is already showing the benefits of cultural renewal.

Yesterday I expressed my thanks to various other institutions which are active in my department. Hon members will allow me on this occasion, in association with what I have just said, to place on record my special thanks and appreciation for the exceptional service rendered by the Ministerial Representatives in this country in respect of the departments of the Administration: House of Assembly. I think the contribution made by the six Ministerial Representatives in expanding own affairs will receive true recognition only in the history books. I want to express my personal thanks and appreciation to these men and women who do the work.

Furthermore I should like to react to some of the speeches that were made yesterday. In the first place I want to refer briefly to the two hon members on my side of the House whom I have not yet dealt with. The hon member for Bloemfontein East spoke about good race relations and weaving training programmes. I want to thank the hon member for the exceptionally knowledgeable and balanced way in which he put this matter. He also discussed the contribution of parents in initiating the promotion of good race relations in their children.

In associating myself with that, I can only say the future of everyone in this country lies in cooperation and in acknowledging one another’s human dignity, privileges and rights. The sooner we accept the realities of the ethnic diversity in this country, and the reality that we can enter this future together and negotiate what is best for all of us only by acknowledging one another’s assets and talents, the better.

My special thanks go to the hon member for Kimberley North for his speech which dealt mainly with the Cape Department of Education and the services they have rendered during the past 150 years. In the nature of the case, we agree with him wholeheartedly. I personally am proud of the Cape Department of Education which has maintained a high standard of education for 150 years. The hon member took cognisance of the festivities that will take place in the Cape this year to commemorate that proud occasion. The fact that there will be close involvement over the length and breadth of the Cape, and I believe that there will be a high attendance rate at these festivities, will attest to an exceptionally close involvement between the parents in the communities and the schools in the Cape. I thank the Cape Department of Education for effecting this during the past 150 years.

The hon member for Kimberley North also referred to some money which they would welcome in order to lend lustre to the festivities. I want to agree with the hon member that money is urgently needed. I know that the private sector has already made their contribution, but I am convinced that if the private sector sits down and really thinks about the contribution the Cape Department of Education has made in the development of the industries and expertise in the Cape, the private sector will come forward, telephone the Director of Education, and say, “Sir, do you not perhaps want another R100 000, R200 000, R500 000 or perhaps R1 million so that you can present a festival of quality?”

I have the greatest confidence that the media will convey this to the private sector and that the Director of Education may later have to say to me, “Sir, do you not want some of the money too?”

I should like to refer to the hon member for Durban North. The hon member told me yesterday that it might not be possible for him to be present here today since he has to catch a plane. In fact, the hon member wrote me a note saying that he was taking an earlier plane. I accept that, but it will not prevent me from reacting to the hon member for Durban North, because in my opinion the hon member was the one false note in yesterday’s debate. The hon member attacked me in the first place for ostensibly not having given practical reasons for being opposed to opening the schools. That was the theme of my argument in my speech. The hon member was probably sleeping when I explained that in my speech. I am not going to say anything else on that point.

†The hon member for Durban North, clearly has a misunderstanding about who decides on the number and the allocation of senior posts. May I remind the hon member that the Commission for Administration decides on such matters and that the final decision about the post of deputy director is taken by the Commission for Administration. The number of senior positions at head office, if seen in relation to the 60 000 plus teaching posts in the profession, can hardly be considered to be excessive. Does the hon member really believe that the abolition of a handful of senior posts will make a material difference to the number of teaching posts which can be advertised? Does the hon member realise that by pleading against the head office chief education specialist posts he is in fact pleading against the interests of the teaching profession and their opportunities for promotion?

*There is no doubt in this connection when we think that there are 160 CS posts at head office out of 60 000 CS posts throughout the country. When we calculate that as a percentage, only 0,26% of the total number of CS posts are in head office. The hon member for Durban North would do well to make a study of this department’s annual report. If the hon member takes a look at the different networks and advisory committees of the CHE, which is constantly working in the interests of education, he cannot argue that those few people in head office are blocking any other education posts.

I have not finished talking to the hon member yet, however. This hon member is someone who, on a specific occasion, publicly stated certain things which subsequently enjoyed extensive press coverage. The hon member is a former headmaster. If my memory does not fail me, this hon member was the chairman of the NTS. He is a teacher. He is someone who should be promoting the teaching profession. What do I read in the Press, however? What did this hon member say? The hon member said:

He went on:

I consulted a dictionary to see what this means. I was amazed! Something that is “tainted” is polluted, contaminated, tarnished. That is what this hon member said. The teaching profession is polluted, contaminated and tarnished. [Interjections.] The hon member went further and said:

What is your reference?

Here it is. The hon member for Pinetown can have a look at it.

*The fact of the matter is that the hon member for Pinetown is ashamed of his colleague. [Interjections.] Nevertheless, that is what it says. The fact of the matter is that I want to state categorically today that I dissociate myself from that. I say that education in all the provinces consists of a department and community of men and women who are willing to make sacrifices for this country. [Interjections.] I refuse to believe what the hon member said.

The matriculation results of this department in all four provinces are already clear proof that we are not merely a mediocre department. An exceptionally high standard is maintained, and we are not without success.

With regard to the organised teaching profession, I want to say that, with its associations, it renders excellent service. They are closely involved. They fight for the image of education.

This hon member, however, drags politics into this and comes forward with such ideas. What I find worst, is that I read in Mentor, the NTS’s official publication, about Mr D L du Bois. He was the CP candidate in Mooi River in 1987. The CPs in Natal accepted a motion in 1988. This motion was recently sent to Mentor by him. It was published in Part 70 no 1 of 1988 under the heading “CP supports NTS!” The CPs are now advertising in the NTS’s official publication. I should like to know whether they are scratching one another’s backs in respect of open schools and closed schools or whether they are scratching one another’s backs in respect of integration and segregation. I do not know what they are doing. I do know one thing, however. By doing that, these people are certainly not serving education. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I should like to thank the hon the Minister for the explanation he gave yesterday of his policy. He spelt out the NP’s policy clearly. It was with that very policy that the NP won at the polls, and it will once again be that policy which will give the voters confidence in this side of the House.

The purpose of the education policy, as it finds expression in our schools, is the comprehensive development of the child. Children are trained to become useful citizens, who will make a meaningful contribution when they reach adulthood.

Attention is given to the development of creativity and aesthetic, social and communication skills. By means of this approach, it is attempted to develop the child in all his facets and all his faculties. Sometimes children prefer this kind of broad schooling, and do not want their schooling to be focused too much on a specific profession.

At a stage in the past the main emphasis in our schools was on the academic tuition of the child. These academically well-equipped pupils were absorbed by our country’s need for professional people, and they met that need.

Most recently, however, pedagogues in our country have identified the great need that exists in South Africa for technical education, and attention has been given to this matter. There is an enormous demand for technologists, and visible progress has been made in this connection. As a result there is greater utilisation—we heard about this yesterday—of our technikons, and as a result the status of these institutions has increased as they have become more acceptable to the community.

It is generally accepted that education and training must be a major component of every programme that has the objective of effecting a better South Africa for all its people and of improving everyone’s standard of living. The provision of education in modern society has become multidimensional and multidisciplinary to an increasing extent. Cognisance must constantly be taken of the interests and needs of the country and the communities, and solutions to challenging problems must be found. The hon the Minister also referred to this in his speech yesterday.

It is the task of the educationist to prepare human material to cope with the challenging needs of the community in general. In that sense the educationist determines the country’s ability to deal with those challenges. One such challenge, which in my opinion belongs squarely in the sphere of education, is that of the growing need for job opportunities. There will be no point in our supplying the labour market with academically highly trained people and technologists for whom no employment opportunities exist. Such a state of affairs bears the germ of revolutionary destruction.

At present approximately 300 000 employment opportunities have to be created every year, and someone has to do that. Obviously the Government cannot absorb this supply of labour and use public money to pay these people. The true employment creator, in a free, capitalist economy, such as we advocate for South Africa, is the entrepreneur. This person has exceptional characteristics and talents, which I do not want to discuss in detail now.

In addition to the inherent and cultivated characteristics that such a person must have, his correct and positive attitude and view of life are of decisive importance. Naturally he must also have certain special skills. Education in particular is capable of making a significant contribution to the development of the correct attitudes. Hon members can imagine a situation in which a class teacher may be negatively disposed to the approach that an entrepreneur should be entitled to a profit. How easy it would be to leave a scholar with the lasting impression that it is unfair for someone to make a profit.

By means of direct or subtle utterances one can easily cultivate a feeling of guilt in a child should he have a natural aptitude for the business world. On the other hand, making a child aware from a young age of the advantages of economic initiative could contribute immensely to the development of a pupil who has the necessary talent to develop into a prosperous entrepreneur.

In my opinion a child should be made aware at an early age that original thinking and the skill he develops and can utilise in an enterprise one day will be rewarded both financially and with job satisfaction. He should know that of necessity this reward will be associated with the daring and drive he manifests, and above all that running risks is an inherent component of entrepreneurship. If he is prepared in this way, the taking of risks will not create in him a fear which may one day deter him from participating in any business activity. Consequently one must guard against an exaggerated feeling of security.

I am laying special emphasis on the learning of attitudes, because if that can be done, we shall increase the chances of establishing a greater number of entrepreneurs to supply the needs of the future. This focus on the attitude or view of life must please not be confused with school tuition which is aimed at presenting a strict, vocationally directed programme for the child in order to make, for example, a businessman of him. It is true, however, that subjects such as accountancy, commercial mathematics, business economics and economics expose the pupils to the enterprise’s milieu, and that in this way they become familiar with the terminology and in particular are made aware of this enormous field which in places is still unexplored. I think, however, that other subjects can also be presented from this particular perspective.

If education is focused too strictly on specialisation in certain professions, it could hamper a child’s ability to think and communicate independently. This ability to think independently is the essential characteristic of the entrepreneur. He must be original and inventive in his thinking. Consequently a programme that is vocationally directed must be balanced so that these skills can be developed.

The hon the Minister also referred yesterday to the research the department is doing to ensure that education will meet the needs of the future. I should like to appeal to the Minister to order an in-depth inquiry into the entire matter of the provision of entrepreneurs for South Africa from the perspective of education.

Training in the sphere of commerce is presented on post-graduate level in South Africa, and there is much praise for the work done in this connection. Numerous business and industrial schools also have institutes to promote entrepreneurship and to train ungraduated adults in business practice. What is important, however, is that these institutions be supplied with sufficient, suitable human material, and the foundation for that should be laid at school level.

Entrepreneurship does not concern only the small businessman or the person or group of people who want to begin their own enterprise, but also the operators of established or even gigantic business enterprises. These singular people are responsible for the extension and further development of economic giants.

An entrepreneur has been defined as a person who undertakes a task and gets together and controls various economic sources in order to make profits so that he can claim part thereof for himself.

I do not advocate an exclusively materialist view of life, but we would be foolish to ignore the realities of our society and the future expectations of all our people in the economic sphere; to do this would lead to further poverty.

At present there are almost a million pupils at school who are being taught by more than 50 000 teachers. This is a significant group of people, of whom a large number could be further equipped for entrepreneurship so as to contribute to making our country prosperous once again.

Even at pre-primary level some of these children show a tendency towards entrepreneurship, but if this inclination is not developed at school, they lose interest.

It is my wish that this source will be exploited to its maximum, because that would be beneficial to all of us. It is the economic artery of the future and ultimately even education will be dependent upon these people for sufficient means to enable them to carry on their praiseworthy work.

Mr Chairman, I thank you for the opportunity to participate in this debate this afternoon. Allow me, however, to say a few words about the so-called platteland and the part played by education there, before I associate myself with the hon member for Port Elizabeth North.

I have great appreciation for the Department of Education and its close involvement in those areas where education plays a very important part and where the communities attach great value to education. We are aware of the immensely pressing financial position of this department, yet despite that they succeed in rendering a service of exceptionally high quality. I think the product rendered by the rural areas over the years is proof of this.

I should like to associate myself this afternoon with the hon member for Port Elizabeth North and appeal for a change in attitude, for a new approach in respect of—I am tempted to say “work ethos”—a philosophy of life in this country.

I should like to quote from a few statistics which have come to our notice recently. In its latest economic review—April 1989—Sanlam refers to the creation of employment opportunities and the problems in this regard. It is very clear that in the eight years since 1980, a net figure of 317 400 formal employment opportunities have been created in South Africa. What is alarming is that 82% of these employment opportunities were created in the public sector. Only 18% of these employment opportunities were created in the private sector.

What is even more alarming is that the number of employment opportunities in the manufacturing industry and the construction industry is dropping. It is only in commerce and in mining that there is an increase in employment opportunities. We are also aware that mining has certain restrictions with regard to expansion. Consequently my point of departure this afternoon is that we must create employment opportunities in the trade and in the industries of this country if we want to make progress.

Another alarming factor is that an even greater burden will be placed on the private sector to create employment opportunities if we privatise. I am referring to 66 000 fewer employment opportunities in the post office and transport industry during this same period. In other words, they must be replaced by the private sector. My question is what part they have played. We so often indict the Public Service, but if the State had not created these employment opportunities, what would the economic and financial position in South Africa have been? I concede that many employment opportunities are created outside the formal sector.

Another trend is that the number of economically active employers grows by 3% annually, whereas the number of formal employment opportunities grows by only 1%. If we can express that in figures, it means that during the same period there was an increase of 2,8 million work-seekers as against 600 000 employment opportunities, including the TBVC countries.

A second aspect that I want to single out this afternoon is the perception and practice existing among our older generation in particular of wanting an annual salary increase of 15%, for example. Inflation has become a habit among us. Together with the hon member for Port Elizabeth North I want to appeal today that we begin to create a new attitude in our schools, among our young people and our children. We must break away from this psychosis that has arisen and from this spirit, because it is unacceptable to any capitalist system.

There are alarming figures in respect of studies at tertiary institutions. One that I want to single out is that in 1985 it cost the Government R6 000 to keep a student at university. At this stage 29% of all White young people who are 19 years of age are at university. Only 3% of Blacks are at university at that age. At the end of this century there is going to be an eightfold increase in Black applicants and that is going to place enormous pressure on our universities. The point I want to make is that our people will have to prepare pupils who can be true students and who can take the correct courses at these universities. There will have to be adjustments to the syllabuses of universities, technikons and technical colleges so that they can comply with the requirements.

Certain requirements emerged from the investigations that were made. The Economist investigated 50 companies in Great Britain and found that there was a significant need among employers for MBA programmes, for example, not to be general programmes, but to be linked to the workplace. Porter and McKibbon carried out an investigation for the American Assembly of Collegiate Schools of Business, which indicated that within the cadre of the MBA degree, there is an enormous lack of syllabuses for the management of people and the development of leaders and leadership skills.

When we look at the situation in South Africa and compare it with that in countries such as Australia, we find that we need twice as many managers. When we compare our situation with that in Canada, we find that we need four times as many. It is no wonder that there are so many heart attacks in South Africa. I want to contend that there is an enormous potential for increasing productivity by improving and strengthening our management corps in this country.

Where is this climate created? We say it is created at school level. We want to appeal today for each pupil, student and citizen to dedicate himself to a new attitude in the workplace, and not to say that South Africa owes him a living, but rather to ask what he can do to make a contribution to making South Africa a better place to live in. We must stop complaining about our problems, and rather look out for new opportunities. We must stop waiting for handouts and become proud entrepreneurs instead.

I appeal for the recommendations of the De Lange Commission to be realised, viz a ratio of 60:40, and vocationally-directed education in preference to academic education. My appeal is that we must break away from the stigma that was attached to vocational education and that we should truly establish entrepreneurs in this sphere. That is why it is so important for guidance teachers and other teachers clearly to point out the concepts that exist with regard to inflation, capitalism, socialism, employment opportunities, employment creation, wages of management, entrepreneurship, and all the points the hon member for Port Elizabeth North referred to. There must be an awareness of technological progress and we must prepare our children so that they can be trained on the tertiary level.

In conclusion I want to thank the Department of Education in the Cape for their initiative in appointing a commission under the leadership of the Director to investigate the position of entrepreneurship within the context of vocational education at school level, and to make a recommendation. I trust the recommendation will comply with the demands made on education by the present system. I trust that the broad curriculum of schooling will be addressed, that the needs of the employer will be addressed and that there will be a change in direction from capital-intensive training to manpower-intensive and labour-intensive training.

I conclude by asking whether the time has not come for us to combine economics and business economics at schools in order to achieve these aims. Will this not ensure greater employment creation, greater productivity and greater competition in the market place at the end of the day? I believe that then we shall have a better South Africa to live in.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Cradock only began to discuss this Vote towards the end of his speech. I intend to devote my entire speech to a discussion of this Vote.

White education remains constricted. It remains under pressure and is suffering to an increasing extent from the consequences of the NP’s radical change in constitutional and education policy during the past few years. The fact is that White education today is worse off than it was last year. Last year it was worse off than the previous year and in this way one can trace the deterioration back to the point at which certain fellow-Whites and fellow-Afrikaners in the NP deliberately took the decision to turn their backs on what at that stage had represented the highest ideals of their people, and to seek, contrary to their own compatriots and people the favour of and embrace the causes of people with whom they had not until then had anything in common. [Interjections.] Everyone, and the NP, knew that the trauma of dissension in the ranks of the Whites and Afrikaners was the first price which the NP had to pay.

There was a second price which the NP had to pay, and that was a moving away from the honest and consistent management of policy towards ambiguity, confusion and deception in order to make this people turn against its own best interests.

This hon Minister, too, played his role to systematically destroy what he himself had advocated for so long, and which has eternal value, and subject it to the will and wishes of other peoples of other colours.

The price of being torn apart in many spheres has been paid, but dissension also left its inevitable scars in the sphere of education. This method of deceiving its own people was also applied in the sphere of education. For example, while all and sundry cried out against it, a solemn undertaking was given that White education would remain untouched in the new dispensation. As an White own affair under the authority of the White Ministers’ Council, it would not be affected by consensus. It would not be possible to harness the demands of the NP’s new partners against the own education of the Whites. The Constitution would prevent it.

Today, on the eve of the third opportunity which the White voter has to express an opinion on this matter by casting a vote, the NP and this hon Minister stand exposed before the realities which brought his policy into existence—exposed to the judgement of history.

The NP has embarked irrevocably on the course of equality of all individuals—not peoples, but individuals—in one education system regardless of their race or nationality. It became soft and gave in to the propaganda of anti-apartheid activists in the ranks of its newly-found partners. [Interjections.]

In spite of that NP ambiguity simultaneously professed the guarantee that this would not influence the financing of White education negatively. Does the hon the Minister still remember these promises? How hollow and empty they sound when assessed in the light of the truth which is shining on the situation now! The hon the Minister said that the Government’s striving for parity in education would not have a negative effect on White education. Does the hon the Minister still remember who he told this to? Does the hon the Minister realise in front of whom he stands shamefaced about what he presented to them a few years ago?

What really happened? The first movement away from the promise was to make equal opportunities in education synonymous with parity in financing. In order to do this, a formula was devised for the allocation of funds. Once again the assurance was given that financing would at least maintain White education standards, and of course the tempting cherry on the cake was an additional promise that the own White affairs authorities would be able to provide additional financing in the form of levies, for example tuition fees paid by the parent community.

Then it sounded fine, but a widespread concern surfaced in education ranks because the result of all those fine-sounding words was that White education departments annually received less money in real terms to maintain the same standard as the previous year.

The next argument of appeasement from the Government was that less money for the White education departments would not lower the standards of education. Rationalisation would result in economies and therefore a smaller need for funds, without standards being lowered.

It was also part of the politics of deception, because in spite of rationalisation, White education did suffer a set-back. Prof Maree, the chairman of the TE, referred to rationalisation as follows:

Rationalisation is seen for what it is—nothing but a deceptive lightning conductor to try to conceal the Raka, which it really is.

Does the hon the Minister deny, to mention only one example—one could mention many—that in the name of rationalisation they are presently insisting on a drastic reduction of teaching units—subjects and subject packages—in various standards? The hon the Minister does not wish to react now, but he cannot deny it. If the hon the Minister cannot deny it, how can he approve of it and then still deny that White standards of education are being affected by the Government’s political policy?

The hon the Minister will not only have to answer to the White voter, but also to his children if they are trained inadequately and have to enter the labour markets with fewer skills. White education is experiencing an unprecedented exodus teachers, many of them from key posts. The remuneration package for White teachers is inadequate. The number of White teachers is decreasing but nevertheless the Government still insists that the number of White teachers be decreased even further. The hon the Minister must not advance the argument that it is due to the lower White birth rate, and therefore smaller number of White pupils, because the evidence is there. The profession did their homework. The pupil-teacher ratio, pupil density and average class size are all deteriorating. This hon Minister, and that is the irony, wants it to deteriorate further. Is it true or not, that the profession receives messages from the hon the Minister that the White teacher-pupil ratio has to be adjusted drastically because it is in stark contrast to the Black pupil-teacher ratio?

These things are a direct result of White education being subordinated to the Government’s naïve and fatal experiments with one multiracial nation in one undivided, multiracial country and one Treasury, from which everyone regardless of race or nationality, has to be financed in spite of productivity, numbers, growth, tax contributions and all the other disparities which compromise the realities of our world.

The hon the Minister must not ask us to submit scientific calculations on this matter. There is nothing wrong with the abilities of the profession and his department to calculate it themselves. The hon the Minister must surely have taken note of studies in this respect. Has the Federaste van Afrikaanse Onderwysersverenigings not yet made it clear to the hon the Minister? Prof Maree said as follows and I quote:

He continues and says:

I wish to state it in stronger terms. The hon the Minister is playing with fire if he, in accordance with the NP’s policy of equality, tries to correct the injustices committed by the Government towards White education by loading one additional financial burden after another onto the shoulders of the White parent. Whether it is increased school bus fares, boarding fees, tuition fees or whatever else the hon the Minister is still going to contrive, the Whites, and especially White parents, have been sufficiently impoverished by this Government. They cannot continue. They have reached breaking point.

I also wish to refer to the conditions of service of teachers. There is dismay about the change made to pension benefits by the Education Affairs Act (House of Assembly)—an own affairs Act—last year. In terms of the provincial ordinances, retirement could take place at the age of 60, and the emphatic assurance was given last year by the hon the Minister and the department in the House Committee that the hon the Minister would retain benefits by means of a combination of Pension Act amendments and regulations. Now it appears to be dependent on agreement by the Coloured and Indian Houses, which insist on parity. Something is amiss here, and the hon members of the NP who served on that House Committee with us, ought to agree if we urge the hon the Minister to clarify the matter. We accepted the word of the department and now it seems that the matter does not only rest in the hands of the own affairs Minister.

Finally, I wish to refer to a report in The Argus of 15 March this year, in which mention is made of a study that has found that inter alia a substantial percentage of Black, Coloured and White principals in the Transvaal are in favour of so-called “twinning schemes”—the linking of a White school to a non-White school to exchange teaching staff, share sports and other facilities, and generally to bring White and non-White on teacher and pupil level into closer contact with one another. Among others it is maintained that 42% of the TED’s principals support this scheme. I hesitate to believe this.

In view of the election which lies ahead, it is probably not unfair to ask the hon the Minister to comment on this. It is a fundamental question whether the hon the Minister shares the feeling of these White principals. It is also a fundamental question whether the hon the Minister is prepared to announce the details of the schools involved, because we already know that questionnaires have been sent to White schools in the Transvaal in which they have to indicate how existing school facilities could be shared.

Furthermore, we know that the NP, through the hon the Minister and the hon member for Bloemfontein East—who was very enthusiastic yesterday—feels that it is necessary to apply the education programme inter alia for so-called inter-group liaison. As far as we are concerned, it means nothing but the breaking down of ethnically-oriented (yolksgerigte) education order to give shape to the NP’s hallucination of one nation. The hon the Minister can reassure the White electorate if he so wishes, and he can inform us about his plans in this respect if he wants to.

Whatever the hon the Minister said about mixed teacher training yesterday, there are institutions which plan for training of teachers in a postapartheid era—words which the hon the Minister of Defence has used in this Chamber—and for multi-cultural education—words which the hon the Minister of Defence has used in this Chamber. The hon the Minister must tell the voters what the constitutional elements are of the new era which they are preparing for—perhaps the hon the chief leader of the NP’s non-racist South Africa? Will that imply an education system in which the history, traditions, achievements and philosophical values of the Afrikaner and the White may not be emphasised?

The hon the Minister must not doubt that these questions—reasonable, fundamental questions—will become statements in the election campaign to the extent to which they are not repudiated. As far as we are concerned, we reject such an era with conviction, and will call our fellow countrymen to a mandate for unqualified, ethnically-oriented (volksgebonde), Christian-national education. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I have a nephew who had a problem when he was a child. He did not want to stop sucking his dummy. His mother was given the sound advice of putting some aloe juice on the dummy. He stopped sucking the dummy, but remained a bitter person for the rest of his life. [Interjections.]

I should like to exchange a few ideas with the hon members about one of the basic concepts in the Afrikaans culture, a concept which is used by people at random for many purposes, namely the concept of nationalism. It is a fact that every person lives from a specific point of view. He shapes his life from specific points of departure which serve as basic motives. His lifestyle, his physical world, his labour, his play, his political policy, his art, everything with which he discernibly occupies himself, reflects something of the creative spirit of that person.

It is a fact that the circumstances in which a person, group or nation finds itself, will have a significant influence on the question of which motives will be emphasised, which basic motives will be activated by him. A nation which experiences oppression or disregard, or is deprived of its language and cultural rights, will almost certainly experience the awakening of a national consciousness and will formulate national aspirations and ideals. This group will react repeatedly to the dangers which threaten that group.

We know that Afrikaner nationalism was born from a nation’s struggle to survive. I want to emphasise that it is a fundamental characteristic of nationalism to cherish, not the great virtues and achievements of a people, but its poverty, handicaps, weaknesses, inability, deficiencies and its fallibility. For that reason Afrikaner nationalism is primarily the instrument and driving force for the building and upliftment of a nation.

Let there be no doubt about it. The danger of self-destruction is also inherent in nationalism. I should like to point out two aspects. The concentration on what is one’s own can easily become egoism on an enlarged scale. It so easily becomes disregard for and disparaging of others, but even more it so easily becomes the criterion for the relativisation of other values. In this way nationalism easily becomes exclusive, not only in its egotistically centred self-expediency, but also exclusive as the sole and all-inclusive greatness to which all truths are subordinated. In the name of nationalism benefits are demanded at the expense of others, religion and the church attains utility value which is expedient to national aspirations, traditions are elevated to independent values and nationalism is destroyed by internal excesses.

What is the corrective for nationalism? Where shall we search for a centralising value which will restrict nationalism to its role and task? Some, especially hon members on the opposite side of this House, search for it in liberalism. It is said that it is liberalism which can break open the self-centredness of nationalism to give the motives of individual freedom and equality living space.

Inherent in liberalism, however, is the germ of self-destruction because it cannot escape from the tyranny of the masses, or the tyranny of uniformity. With that the circle is completed. It arrives at that against which it rebelled.

The centralising value, especially for the Afrikaner people, is the central love commandment of the Calvinistic doctrine. Nationalism also finds its limits and restrictions on the basis of the command that one’s own interest may not overshadow that of the other. Therefore the Biblical truths relativise nationalism, and not the other way around. In this way we must then arrive at a striving for peaceful coexistence, the concept of shared prosperity, and the idea, not of continued existence at all costs, but of continued existence in justice.

This is the true message of Afrikaner nationalism, and it is the message which offers the opportunity for other cultures in this country to get together because is it not exactly the basic characteristic on which the general South African way of life can be built, namely that in South Africa, we as children of Africa, have learnt to support and tolerate one another in justice?

I want to sound a very serious warning. The political party, too, demarcates policy and expresses its aspirations according to a specific basic motive. The message that is conveyed to the general public is that this is what we uphold as being the highest and noblest ends to strive for. These are the highest interests of the people, which we are promoting. That is what they have to fight and strive for.

What happens now? If a political party expresses crass opinions about mixed sport and mixed social relations, and what is more important, if its leader creates the impression that under certain circumstances violence might be justified, that party must expect its followers to resort to the kind of uncivilised behaviour which occurred in Welkom.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member a question?

No, I am not replying to any questions now, Sir.

Order! The hon member does not wish to reply to a question.

Then it is those political leaders who are accessories to such a deed.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: is the hon member discussing the Vote under discussion?

Order! The hon member is elaborating on culture. The hon member may continue.

Mr Chairman, those political leaders are accessories to the deed because they have desecrated the cultural life of the people. Those political leaders are destroying what they are striving for. They are then the living and visible germ in the self-destruction of the Afrikaner nation.

I believe that the time has come this morning for the Official Opposition to make a choice. This morning the leader of the AWB arrived at Parliament with his armed entourage, probably to have discussions with the Official Opposition. [Interjections.] This morning the exponent of uncivilised behaviour threatened, according to a report in this morning’s issue of Die Burger… [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Potgietersrust has had his turn. The hon member for Sunday’s River may continue.

… to further the uncivilised tar-and-feather mentality of the AWB when it says that it is expecting another consignment of hens to arrive shortly. [Interjections.]

As you accept a Swapo Government in South West Africa!

Is the hon member comparing his friends to Swapo? [Interjections.] Thank you very much, now it is on record. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon members for Losberg and Springs could tone down their interjections a little.

I want to say to the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition that he can no longer wash his White hands any whiter, he must dissociate himself from the tyrants or suffer the consequences of our regarding the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition as the great patron of the men of violence who want to destroy what is beautiful and noble in the Afrikaner people.

Mr Chairman, I want to congratulate the hon member for Sundays River sincerely on yet another of the many good contributions which he has made this year.

I would like to talk about computer-assisted education today, and in doing so I find myself in the same position as the Official Opposition, when they talk about partition but do not know which button to press to set it in motion, particularly on a day such as today, when both their mentors have visited Parliament. The one says press this button and the other says that if you do not press that button, we are going to make chicken-feed of you. The hon member for Potgietersrus tried his best today to avoid being turned into chicken-feed. It is a pity because the hon member would have made a beautiful fighting cock. [Interjections.]

To return to computers, I have no doubt that South Africa will be able to achieve its education objectives more easily within the limits of affordability if, as in most other Western countries, the possibilities which modern technology offers were utilised to their maximum potential. In this regard I want to make the following general statements:

1. 1. Technological literacy is absolutely necessary for the maintaining of Western standards in the South African society.
2. 2. Computer literacy is an inextricable part of technological literacy.
3. 3. Schools have an important role to fill in the establishment of computer literacy.
4. 4. The computer has an important contribution to make towards effective training strategies for the future.
5. 5. Without effective software for South African conditions, a great deal of money could be wasted.
6. 6. Where computers have been effectively installed in schools in other countries, the State has made a significant financial contribution in that regard.
7. 7. We in South Africa have the advantage that we can learn a great deal from the mistakes which other countries have made with regard to the implementation of computer-training media.

Comparative studies show that the RSA is far behind other countries with regard to computer-based education. By 1984, 85% of all schools in the USA were using computers for the teaching of various school subjects.

According to McKerlich 1988, page 15, word processing finds general application in schools in Canada, from the primary to the secondary level. Data processing is already being offered as a module option in accounting subjects at secondary level.

In the RSA, Afrikaans-language schools within the White education system, with the exception of the Executive Education Department of Natal, have largely had to buy computers with their own funds. As a result, progress with regard to the implementation of computers in White schools has not come up to scratch.

We therefore have the anomaly that children in our country can obtain a matriculation certificate with typing and accountancy as subjects, without having the basic knowledge of how a computer works.

Over and above this, the de facto situation has already arisen in that, for example, the South West Administration and this department’s equivalent in the House of Delegates, have purchased several thousand computers. The danger therefore exists that White schools could slowly but surely fall behind in this regard.

For the effective implementation of computers in education, it is essential that this department accept its responsibilities in this regard and take the first careful steps towards making the necessary equipment available in schools.

First of all, thorough consideration must of course be given to precisely what computers can be used for in schools and to the way in which computers will be applied. This will then determine how many computers will be necessary per school. There are two ways in which we can think about this in our circumstances.

Firstly, for general computer literacy and computer study, contact by individual pupils with the computer is essential. This presupposes that microcomputer laboratories must be created in which the ideal of one microcomputer is available per pupil per session. This configuration can also be used for subject instruction.

Secondly, for subject instruction in the group context, one computer linked to one or more television units can be used per classroom. Although the ideal is undoubtedly to equip a classroom with an interactive video station, where each pupil has access to such a station, we accept that this is not economically viable in the foreseeable future.

From experience in other countries, a pupilto-computer ratio of 50:1 can be taken as a point of departure for the implementation of computers in education. I just want to mention that in West Germany the ratio at present is already 2:1 and they aim to achieve a ratio of 1:1 soon.

Therefore, to correct this matter by providing computers in a ratio of one computer per 50 pupils, approximately 19 000 computers will be necessary for the 953 530 pupils in public ordinary school education and special school education. At the present price, the cost of computers and accompanying printers—if one takes one printer for four computers—will amount to approximately R57 million. However, one must accept that cheaper prices, and possibly cheaper configurations, can be considered.

To ease the financial burden, the implementation can be distributed over a period of a few years. One must also ensure that before each phasing-in period the necessary evaluation is made.

However, it is clear that without suitable software of good quality, the computer cannot be cost-effectively applied. For that reason it is necessary that urgent attention be given to the creation of strategies for the development of suitable software for South African conditions and syllabi. We must also accept that this will cost far more than the apparatus itself.

In this regard I want to suggest that a project approach be followed in South Africa, in which both sectors—public and private—are combined in project teams to develop programmes for those parts of the different subjects which lend themselves to computer-based education. It is equally important that the co-ordination of such projects rests with the education sector itself. The full implementation of computer education in the RSA is an expensive project, but it will ultimately hold advantages which means that the Department of Education and Culture cannot afford to procrastinate any longer in this regard.

South Africa cannot afford to fall behind in this field. A good teacher can never be replaced by technological aids, but a good teacher can be more cost-effectively utilised in this way, and cost-effective education is what is necessary to keep us within affordable limits.

Technological aids can also help to keep expensive education in the platteland within affordable limits. For example, with the necessary aids, one good mathematics teacher can even be used by two or three schools.

When I speak about education in the platteland, I just want to conclude by sincerely thanking the hon the Minister and the department for the way in which they continue to provide education to our White children in the platteland under difficult conditions, and also for the high standards which are maintained. For example, when I refer to my own rural constituency, where we are severely subject to depopulation, I must say that in every town there is still a good school which maintains good standards and where various new projects have been completed recently. I need only think of the wonderful school which has been completed in Dewetsdorp. In response to that I just want to express my most sincere appreciation to the department. With that I would also like to support this Vote.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Smithfield has made a most interesting speech about the use of computers in schools and the necessity for the establishment of microcomputer laboratories. I must say it is somewhat alarming to hear the projected costs—the basic cost of R75 million for those 119 000 computers. That is pretty daunting. I know that this Government, at this time, cannot even begin to cope with this sort of situation.

Mr Chairman, I feel a little out of place but in the very short time at my disposal I want to deal with a subject which is completely non-controversial. I do hope, at least, it is going to turn out to be non-controversial.

In doing so I should hate the hon the Minister to think that everything with regard to education in the Transvaal is satisfactory. That is certainly not so. All the matters raised by other hon members of the DP apply as much, if not more so, to the Transvaal. We too want this hon Minister to take his courage in both hands and take the first tottering step towards non-racial schools. We too would like to see vacant training college slots taken up by people of colour in a situation in which we are crying out for trained teachers for South Africans who are not White. The hon the Minister must not think that we in the Transvaal are satisfied, because we are not.

The matter with which I want to deal, however, has to do with the encouragement of instrumental music in our schools. When attending a symphony concert or other musical performance I am always interested to note how many of the musicians involved come from countries other than South Africa. I am not talking about the soloists, but of the rank and file members of the orchestra. There are of course a number of South Africans involved, but undoubtedly the bulk of these musicians have to be imported to this country. I must say we are very pleased to have them.

Every South African wants to be the conductor!

That is probably so. Every South African might like to conduct and to be the boss.

I think it is true to say that instrumental music and the training of musicians are not high on the priority list in South Africa. There are certain schools which have a musical tradition but this is generally directed towards vocal performances, for example by school choirs. There is very rarely any active encouragement of our youth to play a musical instrument. If they decide to play any instrument at all, South Africa’s young people tend to learn the guitar, often with electrical back-up. Instruments used in classical compositions, however, tend to be neglected. Most schools will have one or two instrumental players, but this is usually because of a musical background at home rather than as a result of active encouragement at school.

My request to the hon the Minister is that he investigate the possibility of introducing a programme to encourage the playing of these musical instruments. I think our South African culture has tended to exclude this sort of music. It encompasses rugby. It encompasses braaivleis and boerewors. Music, however, is neglected. In Europe and the USA, for example, this is certainly not the case. There is no doubt at all that we lag behind most First World countries in this respect, and things will only change if we take some sort of positive action.

This is not going to be easy in many of our smaller centres because no teachers are likely to be available—I can appreciate that this could be difficult—but in larger cities and towns there should be no excuses because teachers are available.

I think it is worth making the point that true education should not be confined to technical subjects with a certain literary input through language courses. True education should cover a broader spectrum and this should include music. It is very important to my mind.

Perhaps the hon the Minister could tell us about his approach to the teaching of music and musical instruments. I do not know whether he himself learned to play a musical instrument at school. The sort of music that comes out of his mouth is frequently out of tune and not very pleasurable to listen to. [Interjections.]

He learned to blow a trumpet!

Yes, he blows the trumpet for his party but that is certainly very discordant indeed. [Interjections.]

Our cultural life could be greatly enriched if there was a change of emphasis and I would like us to explore the possibilities which could be created for our youth at school.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Bryanston presented a controversial, but, I believe, a worthy subject here with an almost musical rhythm…

With one false note.

I do not want to cross swords with him in that regard; in fact, I am even prepared to support him in that regard.

His sheet music was mixed up!

Mr Chairman, I listened carefully yesterday to the speech of the hon member for Brits.

Excellent!

This morning I obtained the text of his speech from the Hansard department and read it. There were two aspects in particular that struck me.

The first is that the hon member does not hesitate to twist the NP policy to suit his arguments. [Interjections.] Equally conveniently he slips in the statements that there are those, as he says, the NP and the DP, who advocate a unitary state. [Interjections.] For greater effect he then simply adds the LP in the House of Representatives as well.

Surely that is correct! What is stated there!

In this way he then attempts to create the impression that the NP, like the other parties which he mentioned, advocates Black majority rule, open public schools and integration in all walks of life.

Are you in favour of negotiation with a peaceful ANC?

Any reasonably—the hon member must listen now—any reasonably intelligent student of politics will know that that is untrue. [Interjections.] The hon member is using that strategy to distract attention from the fact that his own standpoints are not viable.

This brings me to the second aspect of the hon member’s speech which struck me. It is really disconcerting to see how someone who refuses to accept the truth, arranges the facts at his own discretion to support a model which exists only in the imagination of his hon colleagues and himself.

The separate, independent, self-supporting states of which he dreams, are so unrealistic that one should really not waste time debating them.

Is that not your policy as well?

The facts with which we are dealing are so real and so irrevocable that even the hon member for Brits could not succeed in completely covering them with his ideological blanket. Here and there a piece is still showing. He says for example, and I quote:

That is his party—

That is quite a telling statement. [Interjections.] Why is it important that the education standard, also those of the sovereign independent nation states which they envisage, be controlled? The reason is simple. It is because the Whites are also concerned with the quality of the standards of the other groups. Why is that? Because all the groups will be integrated in one single economy, because they will work together and be dependent on one another. Completely separate, independent states are and will remain simply a dream.

Let us look at the co-operation once again, particularly with a view to education standards, of which the hon member for Brits spoke. The word “co-operation” excludes the concept of prescriptiveness. It implies negotiation and a consequent agreement. If the hon member’s statement was sincere—I believe the hon member was sincere—it means that separate, independent non-White states with non-White Governments and non-White education departments are going to have a joint say over the education standards which will be laid down for Whites in their sovereign countries.

That is absolutely untrue!

That is what it means. That is the logical conclusion of the policy of the CP. As it is at the moment, that realisation ought to be a shocking idea for every blue-blooded CP. No, let us rather be realistic. Our real world consists of a diversity of groups and different cultures.

Does it only consist of groups or does it consist of peoples as well?

For that reason education must lend itself to the conveying of the culture of the various groups, but those groups are also interdependent. What is of particular importance is that those groups and communities also share a common patriotism. Education must therefore succeed in promoting the meaningful co-existence between groups. That is all I want to say about the speech of the hon member for Brits.

I now want to hasten to deal briefly with another matter which I regard as important. It is true that South Africa’s future is in the balance. We are involved in a struggle for survival. At present our population growth rate is at odds with the economic growth rate. We shall have to do something about that, and we shall have to do it quickly. Our economic growth rate will have to be dramatically increased.

The key to this appears to lie in the increasing of our exports far beyond the point at which they stand today. In the new technological era in which the world finds itself, the demand for the export commodities on which we built our prosperity in the past, is at an all-time low. Metals and minerals are no longer selling the way they used to. For that reason we must look for alternatives.

It is generally accepted that our future lies in the competitive export of manufactured products. In this regard I want to associate myself with the remark which the hon member for Cradock made in his speech. Our manufacturing industry must simply be dramatically improved. This then is the priority of the Government, and more specifically of the Department of Trade and Industry. It is unavoidable that this will also create greater challenges for education than ever before.

Career-orientated education for example, is now becoming far more important than ever before. It is important that career education should become more accessible to pupils. For that reason it is interesting that the South African Council for Education recommends that Std 4 and Std 7 should be defined as further exit points from the formal school system. The De Lange Report has already recommended that as a general pattern Std 4 should be considered as a possible exit point. That is to say, Std 4 must be the end of compulsory school education, after which three years of further compulsory education can take place also formally and outside of the school.

The aim of this recommendation that Std 4 be accepted as an exit point, is to provide the pupils concerned with a recognised certificate so that those pupils can then make the choice of, for example, entering career-orientated education, which will perhaps be more relevant to them with their particular aptitudes and preferences than academic instruction. [Interjections.]

With regard to education in general, it is of course true that all education prepares one for a career. Education as a more specific preparation for a life of work in a specific milieu or career, however, is offered by the Department by the Department of Education and Culture particularly in the secondary phase. Explorative career-relevant subjects such as wood-work, domestic science, agricultural science, accountancy and art subjects are offered in the junior secondary phase, with a view to the choice of a field of study in the senior secondary phase.

In the senior secondary phase they are able to choose between eight fields of study of which five, namely, the commercial, technical, agricultural, art and domestic science fields, are regarded as being career-orientated. This is definite proof that the hon the Minister and his department are aware of the challenges which the country is offering them and that they are not shying away from them.

Approximately 19% of all pupils in Std 8 to Std 10 opt for the commercial field of study and 11% for the technical field of study. Approximately 32% of all secondary pupils opt for one of the five career-orientated fields of study which I mentioned. Although this is not enough, I want to say that at least it is encouraging.

In the senior secondary phase eight commercial subjects, 17 technical subjects, seven agricultural subjects, 14 art subjects and five domestic science subjects are offered. It is important that career guidance be offered in both the secondary phases in all schools. Of course, in schools offering special education, mainly career-orientated education is provided for boys and girls. The technical college provides almost exclusively after school training, inter alia in the five fields of study which I mentioned. These are offered from a level equal to Std 8 or N1 up to and including N6 which is a post-school standard. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I should like to react to the hon member for Stellenbosch by saying that he must not pay any attention to the reaction of the Official Opposition to his analysis of the speech by the hon member for Brits. Logic has never formed any part of these people’s total composition, and they will not really understand what he is trying to say.

I should like to agree that the hon member for Bryanston has really made a praiseworthy attempt to reintroduce instrumental music into our schools. I want to tell him that I was very surprised last Sunday when an orchestra, consisting of approximately 20 primary school children from the Constantia Primary School in Pretoria, all played violins and accompanied the singing in our church. I found it delightful, particularly to think that this was achieved at a primary school of the Transvaal Education Department.

Owing to its nature the composition of the family, namely father, mother and children is the first and most original institution of education. This family consists of two parts, namely the adult, of age part and the immature or under age part. The parent must care for the child physically and spiritually, and prepare the child for life. Unfortunately the size and complexity of the world in which the child must eventually be able to hold his own, does not always make it possible for the parents to do this alone. For that reason tremendous changes have taken place in respect of the education by and responsibility of the parent.

The parents remain primarily responsible for the education of the child. For that reason I should today like to discuss parental involvement on an organised basis by means of parents’ associations. Parental involvement has an entire history. Originally parents taught their children themselves. Later, as in South African history, we even read about governesses hired by families who could afford this, and even later groups of parents hired such teachers. We read about this during the Great Trek period. Eventually, in the 19th century, the State also became involved when this became too much for parents to handle on their own. It is very interesting that as far as the Western World is concerned it was actually Calvin who made the parent responsible for entrusting the child’s education to the State.

The person who gives the money usually accepts responsibility and determines the education policy. Since the State has taken over parent, representation has therefore been confined to statutory committees and school boards which we still encounter at the moment. In this way the community, through the parents, supervises normative education of the children according to the outlook on life of the community. At the same time there are parents’ associations which develop spontaneously and which collect monetary contributions for sport and other facilities. The fact is that some schools are also very well developed in respect of these extra facilities.

The State has, however, now taken the initiative to involve the parent more closely in the education of the child without assailing the sovereignty of professional education. This was done by means of Act 39 of 1967, as amended in 1986. The organised parent community is now recognised by the Minister. The parent is therefore to a greater extent taking his rightful place in the education of his child, but there are still difficulties.

At the moment there are seven associations which are officially recognised and have a say at the second tier, namely in the provincial education councils. The Federation of Parents’ Associations of South Africa is represented on the CHE and in this way therefore also has a say at the first tier as regards the education affairs of their children.

There is, however, a problem. At the local level the parents’ say in statutory bodies like management boards, is not linked to the parents’ associations. Other organisations at the local level are parent-teacher associations and similar organisations, but it is here that there is a rift.

The fact that there is this rift between the activities at local level—this revolves mainly around the service motive, namely collecting funds, refreshments, receptions, etc—and the say at the second and first tiers, makes parents antagonistic towards the organised, recognised parents’ association. There is therefore no direct link. At the local level the recognised parents’ association has no say. This also frequently gives rise to conflict between the statutory body, which is the management board, and the non-statutory body, ie the recognised parents’ association which must collect the funds.

The dilemma is that the statutory body spends the money which the non-statutory body has collected. The non-statutory body can have a say at the first and second tier on matters which have an effect on the statutory body. At the third tiers there is no officially recognised liaison between the two bodies.

As a result of this rift the parent does not see the necessity for participating in the parents’ associations and consequently does not pay affiliation fees to it, and this makes it very difficult for the recognised association to do its work.

The authorities will have to reconsider the position of the recognised parents’ association at local level. These associations do their level best to market themselves as an organisation, but the greatest resistance being experienced, is that headmasters of schools adopt the attitude that such an association is not necessary according to their prescriptions. For that reason headmasters do not allow for the functioning of such an association. This leads to financing problems for the parents’ association.

In the light of the new dispensation headmasters will have to call upon their parent communities for participation and involvement. The positive standpoint of the executive education departments can contribute a great deal towards a change of heart on the part of headmasters to get parents involved in the recognised associations.

To summarise, in order to achieve this the status of the parents’ association at the local level must be considered so that compulsory support by parents, also financially, can succeed at that level.

Mr Chairman, my time is so limited that I shall not be able to react to what the hon member for Kempton Park said. [Interjections.]

Before I reply to a few statements made by the hon the Minister yesterday, there is firstly a matter I briefly want to put to him. It concerns the allowances paid to the teaching staff of the Akasiapark Primary School. The allowances were discontinued from 1 July of last year, except in the case of the principal, who is regarded as having his headquarters in the Transvaal.

I want to make a friendly request to the hon the Minister to reconsider the matter. The Akasiapark Primary School is under the control of the TED. The staff members normally come from the Transvaal. Even the parental homes of the unmarried staff members are normally in the Transvaal. Generally speaking the staff would not consider accepting posts anywhere other than in the Transvaal either. It therefore seems unfair to allege that their headquarters are in Cape Town. Would the hon the Minister not consider regarding the headquarters of all teachers who have posts in schools under the control of the TED to be in the Transvaal?

As in the case of the officials that come from the Transvaal, teachers from the Transvaal also make great sacrifices. The least the department can do is to allow them their parliamentary benefits and allowances, as in the case of everyone who has his headquarters in the Transvaal. Ultimately this would also effect the quality of the teachers prepared to come to the Cape for the parliamentary session. I really do think that all those whose children are attending school here—and this includes all officials and members of all political parties—are entitled to expect to have good teachers for their children here. As it is, it is unsettling to have one’s child attend two different schools each year. I therefore want to make a serious request to the hon the Minister this afternoon to consider this matter carefully and not simply to give us a negative answer in this House today.

Yesterday the hon the Minister said the following—and I quote his unrevised Hansard:

Let me tell the hon the Minister this afternoon that I respect him as Minister of Education and Culture in this House. I have even grown quite fond of him over the past two years, even though politically we cross swords here.

That is a mistake!

I also realise that the hon the Minister is one of the more traditionalist (behoudende) members of the NP—if there are still such members left.

That is also a mistake!

He is at least trying to counteract the preponderance of NP members who want to jettison everything overnight. The hon the Minister, however, makes the same mistake in every debate. The hon the Minister does not really listen to what the Official Opposition has to say about education. If my observation is incorrect, it means that he is distorting what the Official Opposition says.

During the interpellation the other day he said that the CP was the enemy of the teacher. [Interjections.] He said it. He must go and read that again impartially, if he is capable of doing so, to find out what we said in the debate. Yesterday the hon the Minister made precisely the same mistake again. I did not say that the CP was the only party that advocated Christian education. What I did say was that the CP was the only political party that recognised and respected the right of the Whites to determine their own system of education. That is true, is it not. If the hon the Minister knows the Constitution, he must acknowledge that that is true, for otherwise he does not know what is in the Constitution. The hon the Minister knows that it is even possible for a Coloured or Indian to become Minister of National Education in this dispensation. He knows that it is even possible—shortly, when the Constitution is amended—for a Black man to become Minister of National Education. Or would he deny that? Would the hon the Minister deny that? [Interjections.]

Is the hon member prepared to answer a question?

No, I have only six minutes at my disposal, but the hon the Minister could give us an answer. It is possible for that to happen.

In regard to Government subsidies paid out to private schools, technikons and universities, the hon the Minister blames me if I inform the public about the amounts from the White education budget which are being used for people of colour. He holds it against me. May I ask the hon the Minister whether he is telling the public the whole truth when he informs them about how much the Government is spending on White education?

Order! I am sorry, but the hon member’s time has expired.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: According to my calculations the hon member still has a minute left.

Order! According to the list I have, the hon member only has five minutes.

Mr Chairman, the hon member’s time has been adjusted to six minutes. I just want to ask whether the hon member cannot be allowed a further minute to speak.

Order! I have given my ruling.

Mr Chairman. I will not react to what the hon member for Brits said, except to say that the hon member and the CP, as well as the DP, exploit education equally badly for political purposes.

†I welcome the developments at the Voortrekker Museum in Pietermaritzburg as conveyed by the hon the Minister today and thank all concerned for the interest in a vital part of Natal’s history.

I want to continue with educational matters. As my opening gambit I would like to pay tribute to and to champion the cause of the advancement of women in the teaching profession. It is true that there has been tremendous progress for women in education, especially in the past few years. Women of ability receive promotion posts in direct competition against men with no apparent discriminatory trends. I believe that the hon the Minister, the Superintendent-General and the four provincial Directors of Education should be congratulated on their spirit of fair-mindedness and also on the outstanding work they do in maintaining the very high educational standards in South Africa’s traditionally White schools.

Of course, there are still certain problems encountered by women in the profession and which can be considered discriminatory. Parity has not yet been achieved between men and women CS educators at post level one, although parity has been established at all other post levels. We have heard today that good progress has been made in this regard but the cost will be in the region of R500 million. We are thankful for the consideration of the hon the Minister of National Education and other hon Ministers.

The married woman teacher is still disadvantaged in that those not in permanent posts, even after having given outstanding records of service, have at times and quite recently too, lost their jobs to inexperienced, newly-qualified teachers, often to the detriment of education while causing hardship to the women concerned. I know this aspect is receiving attention and I await developments with more than a little interest.

In respect of medical aid benefits, women do not have identical benefits to their male counterparts. In particular, benefits are not available to spouses of women teachers who themselves do not belong to a medical aid fund. This anomaly I believe must be corrected.

A particularly calvinistic or archaic, discriminatory application is that single women who require maternity benefits occasioned through their own choice to become a single parent, or through an unwanted pregnancy, are denied any benefits under their medical aid scheme. These exclusions exist in very few medical aid schemes, including the parliamentary scheme. The predicament of unfortunate young women teachers who find themselves in this situation is very sad, for not only do they lose medical benefits but also their right to employment as well, unless their child is first given out for adoption. We are talking about the whole future of well educated young women and possibly their children. These discriminatory, archaic regulations, irrespective of moralistic or sometimes self-righteous aspects, should receive sympathetic consideration and be dispensed with.

*Furthermore, it is acknowledged that disparities do exist in the number of women in the teaching profession in relation to the number of women in promotion posts. The imbalance between the number of promotion posts and the percentage of women in the teaching profession is 64% and should be seen in perspective.

†We should take cognisance of the fact that education is merely the mirror image of the community it serves. When one considers the fact that women play only a hesitant role in community structures, the smaller percentage of women in promotion posts becomes more explicable, however. For instance, in Parliament only 2% of members are women but we do welcome their presence. [Interjections.] Few women serve on city councils. Few women hold office in the management structure of the teaching profession. Some of the reasons appear to be that few women make themselves available for promotion posts and there seem to be negative perceptions in the community as to the suitability of women in managerial positions. This is not based on ability but on cultural perceptions, custom and tradition.

It is a fact that the percentage of women who have gained three merits is higher than that of men in the profession. It does show that the department recognizes and values the abilities of women but it is essential that society, and the school committees in particular, be more objective in applying fair selection criteria for promotion posts. They do tend to vote for men when the chips are down but women must also place a large share of the blame on themselves. Only a small percentage of women make themselves available and are interested and motivated enough to prepare themselves to be more acceptable for promotion and therefore to be placed on the shortlist.

*The teaching profession and the community have a great appreciation for women who often have to bear the heaviest burden in the teaching profession.

†Women are a most valuable asset to education and new doors open to them every day. The doors that are still locked women will have to make a greater effort to unlock themselves. The NP will do its utmost, I believe, to assist them wherever possible.

I should like to deal briefly with what is said to be the unsatisfactory state of affairs with regard to security at schools. In recent years there has been an increase in the break-ins at schools where valuable equipment and materials have been stolen. Of greater concern is the safety of scholars, particularly at girls’ boarding establishments. Parents, school committees and teaching staff at certain girls’ schools have expressed their distress at the lack of rudimentary security provisions, particularly as it appears that due to a lack of finance the situation cannot be improved or corrected at present.

I believe that the problem should be addressed urgently and rudimentary security could be improved relatively cheaply by improving security lighting, by establishing emergency intercom systems, if necessary to the nearest police station and by providing security guards or regular visits by security officers throughout the hours of darkness.

When I discuss the security of the country and how it is being influenced through education channels I am filled with anger and at times with disgust. The abuse of education by the Natal Teachers’ Society through its mouthpiece Mentor, which is aided and abetted by certain Natal politicians for party political purposes, has always angered me, but I have dealt with this matter before and the hon member for Umhlatuzana did so very effectively yesterday.

Happily the NTS has, in recent months, taken a far more responsible line and I trust that it will continue to do so in spite of the coming election. I await the next copy of Mentor with great interest.

They say that “Ellis sal regkom”, and I hope so, as I understand that the hon member for Durban North has recently taken a new lease on life. It is time the hon member stopped creating false perceptions. He is doing the cause of education no good at all.

More worrying to me though, although they say “moenie Worrall nie”, is the recent sortie of women to Harare to visit the ANC, a recognised terrorist body. It was led, I am told, by Mrs Denis Worrall. I have not met the good lady and she may be a good one, but she is playing with fire, and so are some of the ladies I know of who accompanied her. Certain lady principals from prominent Natal schools saw fit to play with the security of our country. I trust that they have returned with open minds and will act responsibly.

There are undesirable developments at certain schools, particularly at private schools, which are mostly funded at a rate of 45% by the State. Certain schools appear to have embarked on a dangerous indoctrination programme, presenting a one-eyed case for the so-called postapartheid education. This includes the development that “Die Stem” will no longer be sung at several schools as it is a song of apartheid which is un-South African.

Also in the programme of anti-Government propaganda is the celebration of Biko Day, Soweto Day, Workers’ Day and so forth, with speakers being invited to extol the virtues of Steve Biko and various freedom fighters. Recently three South West African church representatives made a tour of schools in Natal addressing assemblies of pupils. They claimed that atrocities were being committed by the South African Defence Force in South West Africa on defenceless women and children. They furthered Swapo as the legitimate government of South West Africa/Namibia and claimed the South African apartheid Government to be the real aggressors.

I have no time to expand on this any further, but I call on the school leaders involved to stop their disgusting programme of disinformation. What is happening is nothing but a prostitution of an education system…

Order!

… and it will do nothing to solve the problems, but only exacerbate them.

Order! When I call the hon member to order I suggest that he takes heed and resumes his seat.

Mr Chairman, I apologize.

Mr Chairman, it is a privilege to be speaking after the hon member for Pietermaritzburg South. In his opening speech in this afternoon’s debate, the hon the Minister referred to the Land Service Movement. I would like to exchange a few further ideas with hon members with regard to this wonderful youth movement.

The origin of the Land Service Movement can be traced back as far as 1914, when Mr C Stone of Johannesburg donated the amount of 100 pounds to the then Department of Agriculture to present maize-growing competitions for children. They had to see who could produce the most maize on half a morgen, in order to encourage the farmers to improve their maize output. As a result of this this youth movement was tremendously successful.

Gradually this led to the development of maize-growing clubs, the Voorspoedbond agricultural clubs and eventually the Land Service Movement as it is today. Initially all these organisations fell under the Department of Agriculture, and later under the Department of Agricultural Technical Services.

During 1968, the Land Service Movement was transferred to the then Department of National Education and then to the Department of Education and Culture during 1984. Dr C F Visser, the renowned Father Visser of the Voortrekkers, was the first organiser, in a temporary capacity, of the Land Service Movement in the service of the Department of Agriculture.

On 28 May 1986, the Cabinet decided that the Land Service Movement should not be privatised. However, in the meantime a democratic organisation structure was designed for the movement which comprised protection committees, area committees, regional committees, and a national committee. The aims of the Land Service Movement are mainly the following:

1. 1. Om in die gees van die aanhef tot die Grondwet van die Republiek van SuidAfrika geleenthede te skep vir die handhawing van Bybelse waardes en vir die ontwikkeling en bevestiging van liefde vir God die Skepper.
2. 2. Om die jeug te begelei tot liefde vir die natuurlike erfenis van die land en die oordeelkundige benutting daarvan.
3. 3. Om die jeug te begelei tot liefde vir die kultuur-erfenisse van die land en tot die vertolking en waardering van die eie kultuurgoedere en dié van andere.
4. 4. Om aan die jeug geleentheid te beid om die nodige kennis en vaardighede te bekom wat hulle in staat sal stel om hulle ten volle te ontwikkel ten einde huidige en toekomstige uitdagings doelgerig, selfstandig en verantwoordelik die hoof te kan bied.
5. 5. Om aan die jeug geleenthede te bied om saam met ander te verkeer om sodoende begrip te ontwikkel vir belangrike groeps waardes soos samewerking, betrokkenheid en groepslojaliteit en sosiale aanvaarbaarheid.
6. 6. Om alle belangstellendes doeltreffend saam te snoer en sodanig aan te wend dat hulle met die Staat sal saamwerk in belang van die Landsdiensbeweging en tot die algemene heil en vooruitgang van die land.
7. 7. Om, bondig saamgevat, die jeug te begelei tot liefde vir die bodem, vir arbeid, vir die medemens en vir die Skepper.

The Land Service Movement comprised the following at the end of 1988: There were no fewer than 348 junior school clubs with a total of 16107 members. There were also 228 high school clubs with nearly 11 000 members and then there were also 29 clubs for post-school use with 1 459 members. With regard to the movement as a whole, there were therefore 605 clubs with 28 372 members, 92% of these members were Afrikaans-speaking and 8% English-speaking, 48% of these members were male and 52% female. The average size of a club was 47 members per club. The 605 clubs had a total of 1 159 adult leaders, who were mainly teachers.

The department’s involvement in the Land Service Movement can be attributed mainly to two reasons: Firstly, the fact that the State itself took the initiative with regard to the founding and organising of the movement, and secondly that the Land Service Movement has Afrikaans- as well as English-speaking members and unlike the Voortrekkers or the Boy Scouts, does not have its own cultural guardian community.

The department deserves praise and thanks for their involvement in the Land Service Movement. At present the department has more than 14 posts of cultural officers who promote Land Service as a priority task.

The Assistant Director for Youth Affairs is ex officio the national leader of the Land Service Movement. This post has been held with great distinction by Mr Aubrey Stopforth for the past five years. At the moment Mr Stopforth is at home recovering from a very serious motor accident during January this year. We wish him a speedy and complete recovery, and we trust that his capable leadership will remain at the disposal of the movement for many years to come.

Under his guidance and with the help of all these officers, three national camps were offered during 1988, 33 regional camps, 74 area camps, 232 club camps, and 26 training courses for Land Service leaders. This made it possible for more than 26 000 of the 28 372 Land Service members to enjoy the opportunity of a camp or a walk during the year in which the department lent assistance.

The Land Service Movement cannot be sufficiently praised for the positive influence which it has on South African youth. This youth movement is apolitical and succeeds in bringing about a better understanding between Afrikaans and English-speaking people. This movement joins young people together and does not divide them any further.

The Land Service Movement makes it possible for city children to come face to face with their Creator in nature and to find themselves.

During the past few years the movement has participated with enthusiasm in the Festival of the Land, the Water Year, the Green Heritage Year and Republic festivals. During 1988 the movement gave its wholehearted support to the three national festivals. During three national camps during December 1988, inter alia 1 000 wild olive trees were planted by the members at the Voortrekker Monument.

If the influence of the Land Service Movement on the youth of South Africa is taken into account, it is understandable that the State regards the continued viability of this movement as crucially important. In celebration of the 75th anniversary of the movement, a commemorative envelope is being issued by the Philatelic Services with a special postage stamp on 1 September 1989. This is a worthy way of granting recognition to a movement which really deserves it. With these few words I would like to support this Vote.

Mr Chairman, I rise to speak on behalf of the approximately 900 school secretaries in the Cape Province. The hon the Minister will recall that during February this year I tabled a question specifically in relation to the discrepancy which exists—and which has existed for many years—between the salaries received by school secretaries in the Cape Province—as I have said, approximately 900 of them—and salaries received by school secretaries in the three other provinces.

The hon the Minister is very much aware of this problem. When he replied to my question in February this year, he made it clear that there was a distinction. He further made it clear that with the increases which came into effect at the beginning of this year the discrepancy which had previously been R4 500 per annum between Cape secretaries and secretaries in the other provinces had risen to R6 400 per annum. It is estimated that since the Cape school secretaries were put into a different category from the secretaries in the other provinces each Cape school secretary at the top of her scale has over the past six years lost well over R25 000 in terms of the discrepancy.

Many representations have been made through the correct channels—through the education departments, through the staff associations to very many arms of education in this province. As hon members will remember education was not always here in this Parliament. It was previously in province.

Despite these representations nothing has been done. All that we are told—and the hon the Minister said this in his reply—is that there is an investigation in progress and that it is regarded as a matter of high priority. That was in February this year. Every month that goes by Cape school secretaries still receive R500 less than their counterparts in the other provinces for doing exactly the same work.

The job of a school secretary is not in any way equivalent to the provincial administration occupational class in which they have been placed.

It is a highly responsible and highly diverse job with responsibilities to staff, parents and pupils. The functions they perform are diverse in terms of bookkeeping, computer work, typing, administrative work and first-aid work. They are really lumped with an enormous range of jobs and responsibilities. To treat women like this in the way they are presently being treated, is something which I simply cannot understand. It would appear that the entire problem relates to the fact that they have been placed in this occupational class—provincial administration clerk—which is a very large occupational class.

Because the Commission for Administration says it will cost a lot of time and money to review the particular occupational class they cannot give attention to the plight of these school secretaries.

If I may just quote from the annual report of the Commission for 1986:

I want to say this to the hon the Minister. This is a high priority. He admitted it himself. It is a priority which should have been a priority for the past five years, and I believe that the Commission for Administration should realise that they do not have to look at the entire occupational class, even if the rules of the game say so. These people are identifiable as a group of approximately 900 women who can be identified as an entirely separate class, and their position should be looked at as a matter of urgency and not be left until 1990 or 1991. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Groote Schuur must excuse me for not reacting to him, as I would like to talk about a different matter, namely the importance of family education to equip the child more effectively to enable him to adjust to the school. However, I also want to strongly emphasise the fact that the opposite is also true, namely that the direct guidance and education which the child obtains at school, also has a great influence in the process of family education.

As early as 4 November 1987 the Cabinet approved a family programme. In a recent statement by the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development, the following was said:

A very important fact is that if it appears to be necessary, existing social welfare services which are being provided to the family, should be increased. Family counselling should also become an integral part of the syllabus at all schools. The national family programme can only succeed if all the bodies and professions involved in the family life make a joint effort to achieve this objective.

With regard to the involvement in the child’s adaptation to the school, as well as the adaptation to the home, I would like to refer to the Handleiding vir Algemene Skoolvoorligting by P Liebetrau, from which I want to quote the following:

If a school system does not make provision for this—this is important—it remains divorced from the community which it serves, and thereby breaches the continuity between the family and the community—a breach which results in frustrated and disorientated individuals, who cannot find their place anywhere in society, according to Van Loggerenberg, 1981.

When the child is given insufficient instruction, whether at home or at school, life will remain strange and inaccessible to him and he will never be able to realise his potential.

It is the task of the school, in co-operation with the parents, to ensure that each child’s potential is developed to the full.

Earlier in my speech I said that I appreciated the fact that the Government agreed that social welfare services which were being provided to a family should be increased if it appeared to be necessary.

I would like to mention a problem which exists in my constituency. There are no hostel facilities in the Port Elizabeth area. Strongly motivated submissions were sent to the department last year for the establishment of a school hostel. This was not approved for good reasons, but the report from the department also mentioned that it was not the duty of education to create facilities out of considerations of welfare. I have already said that the education which the child receives at school can have just as great an influence on family life.

The department also said that it was preferable to distribute pupils with social and/or behavioural problems among a number of schools rather than to have them all together under one roof in one school hostel. The issue is not necessarily always one of children with behavioural problems, but often one of children—this is very important—with unsatisfactory home conditions.

Children are temporarily removed from their homes in an attempt to avoid problems. Relationship problems and emotional problems do not necessarily result in behavioural problems. Because there is no hostel provision in the towns, children are often sent to the platteland and continuity in the provision of services is lost, and, for example, family therapy cannot be realised. I therefore also want to say that group work as a method of treatment can be realised when children with a similar problem are placed under one roof.

City children are sent to platteland schools because there are no school hostels in the cities. For schools in the platteland the question is often merely one of numbers, and we can understand that. Only once the pupil is there, is he confronted with the realities.

It is easier for the city child to obtain psychological help. There are remedial classes, special classes, special medium schools, wide subject choices, more opportunities culturally speaking and wider extramural programmes. A city child in the platteland is given a label and is placed under pressure. He is alone and strange, and is easily wrongly influenced. Therefore the development of the child’s self-image is affected.

Seen from a social point of view, a school hostel in Port Elizabeth is extremely important and necessary. Admission to hostels is a preventive action when permanent removal is not yet regarded as necessary, but temporary removal from unsatisfactory home conditions is only necessary to try to prevent problems. Even if a child’s home conditions are unsatisfactory, his home and his parents remain important to him and regular contact is a need which the child has which cannot always be satisfied when town children are placed in school hostels in the platteland, because then the child also tends to idealise its parents’ circumstances at home. A hostel can satisfy this great need. The necessary infrastructure does exist in Port Elizabeth.

I realise that funds are always a problem when we speak about these aspects. There are schools in Port Elizabeth which are underutilised. We could save an enormous amount of money if we could transform those schools into hostel facilities. Those buildings could then also be put to good use. If the interests of the child can also be looked after in this way, I believe that that child who will be at home on weekends, but who will be away from the problems at home during the week, will also be able to make a significant contribution to the process of family education, which will then make it possible for the parents to deal more effectively with the problems of their children and equip them more effectively for school and enable them to fit in.

Comprehensive and further submissions in this regard will also be sent to the department at a later date. I would like to support this Vote.

Mr Chairman, I think we shall discuss the matters concerning culture and particularly the place of museums in own affairs more fully tomorrow night. I do not intend touching on them now.

I would like to assure the hon member for Pietermaritzburg South that I shall convey his remarks fully to the boards of governors of the private schools in Natal. I am sure that they will be very interested in these remarks.

I would like to continue with the case of the hon member for Durban North that was raised by the hon the Minister. The hon the Minister has chosen not to send me the article that he cited from. That is his choice. I therefore have no way of checking the context in which those words were used.

You may do that! You are welcome!

If those words used were unqualified, the DP and I reject them. We reject any suggestion that the teaching profession is a mediocre profession or that it is tainted. The hon the Minister must hear my words and he must hear them clearly—we reject such words if they are unqualified and used in that sense.

I would like to come to the reference by the hon the Minister to Mentor and the Duncan de Bois letter. It is interesting and the hon the Minister may not be aware of it, but Duncan de Bois and I actually taught together on the same staff. We had fascinating political discussions, as he will probably be aware. Mr De Bois also had a problem with the education profession after standing as a candidate. It might be something that the hon the Minister would like to look into one day.

I would basically like to touch on two matters that the hon the Minister raised in his various speeches; firstly, the question of school financing. In his first speech he indicated the following, and I quote from his unrevised Hansard:

The same day he issued a press statement in which he indicated the following:

First of all, we have a model which is being sent to the partners and when it has been discussed the decision will be announced. The second thing that he does is to set up a committee to investigate education financing. What is the purpose? Which is the hon the Minister doing or is he doing both?

Secondly, the hon the Minister has not said anything about his hon colleague’s plans. He has not said anything about a new Constitution. He does not like the present Constitution. The NP have said that they do not like it. What is the place of own affairs going to be in the new Constitution?

What is the position of free settlement areas? I have here an article from Finansies en Tegniek entitled “Veelrassige Staatskole nie in oop gebiede”. It describes the situation of a construction company that wants to build homes and create an open, free settlement area. The company offers to build schools, provided that they are open to all races but the hon the Minister says that they cannot do it.

He will do it yet! Just give him a chance!

What does the hon the Minister say about schools that do have the places to take children? What about the Johannesburg School for Girls and the Ixopo High School, which has also been cited in press articles as wanting to be open otherwise it will have to close down?

Lastly, I would like to raise the question of parent-funded teachers in this hon Minister’s department because it is an issue that is being thrown around in many schools. These are teachers who are employed by schools but are paid from contributions by parents. Does the hon the Minister approve of them? Does he accept them? Has he issued anything in writing to the schools in the various departments on the employment of these people?

The hon the Minister must accept that, in regard to the opening of schools, it is very dangerous to say never. Things are going to happen and schools will be opened to all races and that is something he must accept. It is far better to discuss these issues openly now, to sit down and talk to his partners and to accept that these things are going to happen because at the moment he and his hon colleagues are headed for confrontation. One hon colleague is saying that there will be open groups with free association and then he says that the schools will never be open.

Will he then resign from the NP?

He has to accept that what has to be done, has to be done in the interests of South African children. He has indicated that we can talk about cultural schools. Let us sit down and talk about that. Let us decide what we mean by culture because that is a problem within the South African community. The Freedom Charter accepts that culture and the transmission of customs are part of the inherent South African tradition and must be accepted. There is a point of contact but as long as we have the intransigence that this hon Minister indicated today and yesterday, we are going to make no progress in the interests of all South Africans.

Mr Chairman, it is always a pleasure to speak about education. Since I try to remain in close contact with it, it is particularly pleasant to throw the spotlight on education in the Free State. I must say, after last Saturday, that I can also debate rugby in the Free State with great satisfaction. However, one does not feel inclined to rub more salt into some hon member’s wounds.

The Free State Education Department is a balanced unit. The teachers of this department form a unit and believe in teamwork. For example, whenever possible, a meeting takes place every Friday under the chairmanship of the Director, at which all the heads of divisions at head office are present. The Director informs the heads of all relevant matters, discussions are held and decisions are also taken jointly. The heads themselves also raise matters which are discussed. The result is that everyone is always conversant with what is happening and the Director himself also remains informed of everything that is happening in the department.

Within the department itself the teachers take an interest in one another’s affairs, support one another and learn from one another. It is possible to see all the Free State schools as a whole and the unity of that whole is taken care of. Co-operation is the watchword. Recognition is given on all levels to the right of various groups to a joint say in education. Parents and teachers join hands, so do school principals and their colleagues, the principals—this is how a national school principal association had its origin last year in the Free State—advisers, head office and all the respective groups. Through this cooperation it is also obvious that the ideal of equilibrium is maintained at all times. Schools are always requested not to be “sports schools”, “cultural schools” or “academic schools”, but well-balanced schools which make adequate provision for all these aspects.

The smallness of this department, in comparison with other education departments, with the strong characteristic emphasis on excellence, is also its greatness. The Free State Education Department is also deliberating this year on what should be preserved and in which areas renewal can or even must be made. What must be protected and preserved at all costs is certainly the Christian character of our education. It is our bounden duty and responsibility. After all, it is stated in Deuteronomy 6: 6-7:

In addition mother-tongue tuition is precious to the Free State Education Department and must be preserved. Other matters which reflect the ethos of the Free State must remain—its teamwork, co-operation, the support one gives to another, the trust one has for another and the development of what is considered to be of the greatest value in the Free State, its children.

As always, the Free State wants to touch the hearts and souls of its children. We owe it to them that they may grow and flourish in our dynamic cultural life, which is anchored in our religion. This must be preserved and must also be developed.

The Free State is proud of its educational standards, of its high-quality training of student teachers and of the in-service training of its teachers. Free State education in the service of the community has built up loyal and esteemed educational partners. These are partners it wishes to retain. The trust of the Free State parent, who knows that his child is being given only the best, that every pupil is being developed to his or her highest potential according to his or her ability and aptitude, is a precious asset.

How is the Free State going to apply renewal? We are living in changing times. We would be doing our children an injustice if we did not train them to remain stable in this changing world, to compete and to overcome. The Free State must make its youth resilient in spiritual and moral spheres. While the youth values what is its own, the youth must also learn to respect the lifestyles and cultures of their fellow countrymen because in this country we have a shared destiny. They must be taught to be people of quality, who can accept full responsibility for their decisions and conduct when they are exposed to the reality of life.

Our children will very definitely have to learn to think more critically. Subject curriculums must be adapted to comply with the changing and new demands of this developing country. More emphasis must be placed on the learning of skills than on the mere memorising of facts. More incisive emphasis will have to be placed on authority and discipline for the sake of the child itself and also to enable it to come into its own as a full-fledged citizen of this country.

To comply with all these requirements teacher training will also have to be more closely scrutinised.

The promotion of culture and the moral strengthening of the child is also receiving a great deal of attention. Pupils are constantly being encouraged to participate in cultural activities. The variety of extramural activities is remarkable because the teachers’ own areas of interest are leading everywhere to the establishment of clubs and associations in which those interests are also aroused in and put into practice by the pupils. According to a recent survey scores of cultural activities are at present being practised on an organised basis in Free State schools, from junior farmers’ associations to nature-lovers’ associations and creativity clubs.

Education in the Free State would also like to make a contribution to reinforcing the spiritual lives of our pupils. One way of doing this is to allow the ACSV to establish branches at schools. It is interesting to point out that in 1988 there were 64 such branches, with 6 750 members and 221 staff members involved. It may also be mentioned that the sound co-operation between churches and schools in the Free State has already become an established practice.

The Director of Education in the Free State, Mr Willem Odendaal, under whose guidance, at the time as inspector, it was my privilege to teach, has an esteemed involvement in education and a commendable management style, because it is his ideal to realise his own involvement in education throughout the entire province. That is why he accepts as many invitations as possible to appear at schools and other educational institutions. This entails that in a school year of approximately 200 days he has to make more than 100 speeches every year. No matter how full his office calendar is with interviews, telephone calls and work that has to be done, in the midst of constant meetings on interprovincial level that have to be attended, he believes that it is his duty to move outwards to the schools themselves.

Tell us why you are not standing in Parys! [Interjections.]

What I cannot understand is what that hon member is doing in an educational debate.

The Free State Department of Education also makes contact with local communities. Every year each town or city council receives a written invitation to maintain the ties between the local communities and the schools.

There is an open invitation to members of Parliament to make regular contact with the Director. Hon OFS members can testify to the sound relationship that prevails between them and head office, and of the efficient reaction that enquiries receive. Here the names of Messrs André Ebersohn and Dirk Litch deserve special mention. I can even testify to the exceptionally enriching experience which a few hon OFS members had last year during a visit to the department. We were received in a genuine and cordial way and had an in-depth discussion with the Director, and we also met and held discussions with the senior personnel of the department. It is my desire that this should become a regular event.

By means of this involvement “education in service of the community” is not merely a non-recurring annual theme, but an on-going feature of the managerial style of the Director and of the Free State Department of Education.

We are grateful for the excellent work the Free State Department of Education is doing in this province. We know that education there is in competent hands, and I should like to say to the Director and his entire corps of teachers: “Keep up the good work!”

Mr Chairman, at the end of this debate it was good to be able to listen to such a good speech by a man from the Free State. [Interjections.] I want to associate myself at once with it by saying that the hon nominated member, Mr Aucamp, demonstrated the unique, personal Free State style in respect of education very clearly, a style which has proved itself capable over the years of producing high-quality education. [Interjections.]

If there is anyone who has any doubts about this, I want to point out to them that that good education style of the Free State was manifested in several State Presidents of this country. I shall therefore leave it at that. I thank the hon member for the contribution.

I should like to thank the hon member for Algoa for the exceptionally interesting speech in connection with family education. It is of course true that there is an integral relationship between the authorities, the school and the family and that school education can also play an important role in family education.

In respect of the hostel for which the hon member for the Port Elizabeth region asked, I just want to say that it is not all that easy, because the hon member must remember that this would also have a contrasting effect on the depopulation of the rural areas. However, I want to leave the matter at that since we did not have enough time to study it, but I nevertheless want to give the hon member the undertaking that we shall once again consider the merits of the representations he made and we shall give our full attention to them.

In respect of what the hon member for Graaff-Reinet said, I should like to thank him. It was a good thing that the hon member was able to address us calmly and quietly, and give us an historical account of the progress and achievements of the Land Service movement, a wonderful movement which makes provision for Afrikaans- and English-speaking people. We could wax lyrical about the exceptional contribution they are making. I want to thank the hon member very sincerely for doing so.

The hon member for Pietermaritzburg South discussed the problem in connection with promotion for women in education, and said that they should be afforded equal opportunities. From the nature of the case of course I can only react to that by saying that every woman in education can already be permanently appointed and that they are on a par with the men. In respect of promotion possibilities I want to make an appeal to management boards to consider all applications on merit, on the basis of the needs of the school, whether these applications have been submitted by men or women. It is true that there are disparities, but these are constantly being investigated.

In respect of security at schools, particularly girls’ schools, I want to tell hon members that these matters are being placed on a priority list. Of course we are dealing with a shortage of funds, but in respect of Natal the Director of Education has just informed me that for the 1989-90 financial year an amount of R700 000 will be spent in respect of security at schools, which is quite a formidable amount.

I agree with the hon member in respect of politicking. My standpoint is quite clear; we would prefer not to have it in schools. I also want to say that I find it shocking that there are schools that have decided, for political reasons, that they do not want to sing “Die Stem”. If one is really so short-sighted that one would demean national symbols for the sake of party-politics, I find it a great pity that this should also take place at educational institutions such as schools. I condemn it.

Did they sing the national anthem during the war?

Does the hon member agree that “Die Stem” should not be sung at schools?

[Inaudible.]

The hon member makes an interjection, but when we ask him whether he agrees with that, he sings a different song. However, I do not want to allow myself to be misled by the hon member. [Interjections.]

In respect of Kempton Park…

You did not…

Does the hon member want to listen to me or not? If not, I shall simply not reply to the hon member.

I am listening.

The hon member for Kempton Park discussed parental involvement and in particular the statutory recognition of parents’ associations in contrast with the management boards which at the present moment already have statutory recognition. We do not have a long time in which to discuss this matter, so all I want to say is that it would be a pity if we do not have very close co-operation between the parents’ associations and the statutory management committees. My experience has been that in most places there is an exceptionally close connection between the management council and the parents’ associations, and I praise the contribution which parents are making in this connection.

Of course it is true that the parents, through their parents’ associations, are affiliated with the Federation of Parents’ Associations. Therefore they can obtain statutory recognition, as well as representation, through those channels. In respect of specific schools I can only advocate this afternoon that there should be close co-operation between the parents’ association and the statutory body. I want to thank the hon member for her contribution.

The hon member for Stellenbosch dealt effectively with certain aspects raised by the hon member for Brits. I do not know whether we will ever succeed in converting the hon member, but it will not be our fault if we do not. For the rest the hon member made a very knowledgeable speech on career-oriented education. There is just one thing I wanted to emphasise, because I am afraid that the wrong perception will be given to this matter among the public, namely the question of Std 4 and Std 7 as school-leaving points.

I know from certain remarks made by the Official Opposition that the impression is now being created that we are allowing children to leave school after Std 4, or otherwise after Std 7, because we do not have enough money and we want to give all the money to the Blacks, the Coloureds and the Indians. This was said, and deliberately so in order to noise this kind of misconception abroad, because what the De Lange report said—the hon member also made this clearly apparent here today—was that these school-leaving points of Std 4 and Std 7 were only in respect of compulsory school attendance, but then there is still the period afterwards, a four-year period of compulsory school attendance. We must understand the difference between those two concepts very thoroughly. I thank the hon member for his speech.

I also want to thank the hon member for Smithfield, who discussed computer tuition. I think this is extremely important, and so does the department. I want to tell the hon member that we must have constant and exhaustive enquiries into the utilisation of important programme development techniques, as well as aids. The CHE is at present investigating this matter. However, there is no doubt that the hon member raised an extremely important matter.

The hon member for Sundays River, as we have come to know him, gave a wonderful, clear elucidation revolving around nationalism, culture and so on—it was very well argued. Of course it is true, and I want to add, in view of what the hon member also said, that the culture of any people offers such a people or population group, and the individual, a safe refuge in which the person or the group can realise itself. This does not of course mean that one should become inflexible within the boundaries of that culture. It does not mean that one cannot also be open to influences. One can allow those influences to have their effect on one’s culture, provided they are in accordance with one’s outlook on and philosophy of life—Christian national, as far as we are concerned.

I want to tell hon members that culture will be stifled if one closes it in completely between boundaries. In fact, the South African culture, or the Afrikaner culture, if one wants to call it that, has already developed into the particular culture it is at the present moment as a result of the influences that various peoples have had on it. Unfortunately we do not have the time to discuss this further, but I thank the hon member for Sundays River for what he said.

I shall deal with the hon members for Cradock and Port Elizabeth North together. I thank the hon member for Cradock for his recognition of the good work being done by the department for the rural areas. Both hon members spoke about entrepreneurship, the creation of job opportunities and the question of vocationally oriented education. I want to tell them that it is the standpoint of my department that we have in fact arrived at the stage in the development of our country in which careful attention must be given to vocationally oriented education. We no longer have the time or the funds to train a person in a specific direction, only to find after he has received his training that he has no job. The matter mentioned by both hon members is extremely important. The Steering Committee on Career Education is giving attention to this and the contributions made this afternoon by these two hon members will also be noted by this committee. Thank you very much.

I quickly want to tell the hon member for Pinetown, right here at the outset, that I think it is very unfair for him to stand up, mention various things and then say that the hon the Minister has not even replied to them. The fact of the matter is that I only have a few minutes left now, but what is unfair is that I have 20 minutes in which I have to reply to everyone. It is quite simply an impossible position to reply meaningfully to all the contributions the hon members have made.

It was different when we had our own Parliament. [Interjections.]

Now this hon member is also taking up my time! Let me just leave it at that. That hon member knows what I am saying. The hon members do not understand it, but that hon member is nodding affirmatively.

I shall quickly try to reply first to a few speeches made by the Official Opposition, and then I shall come back, if there is time, to the DP. In respect of the hon member for Delmas, I just want to say the following briefly. He asked whether the audited statements for the Great Trek Festival had been received. No, the audited statements have not yet been received.

The hon member for Delmas also referred to the fraud committed by an official of the Transvaal Education Department. In regard to the court case the hon member spoke about—he said so many things—I can only say that the offence was immediately reported to the South African Police. The investigation has not yet been completed. For his further information I just want to say that of the amount of R4,127 million which was involved in the fraud, an amount of R4,108 million has already been recovered. The remaining amount of R18 742—that is the amount involved—will be recovered from the leave gratuity of the official concerned.

The hon member also spoke about ostensible irregularities in the Transvaal. The case the hon member referred to dealt with ostensible irregular actions mentioned by the Auditor-General in his report. In the case which was reported and which dealt with the ostensible irregularity in May 1988 it was found that no irregularity had occurred. In this connection, too, an adequate reply was provided by the Auditor-General. In respect of the audit enquiry of September 1988 it appeared, according to the latest indications—I am choosing my words carefully—that no irregularity occurred in this case either. However, the case has not yet been finalised.

In respect of the position of the school board secretaries, I just want to say to the hon member—and this also applies to the hon member for Groote Schuur, who tendered his apology to me—that the respective provincial education departments do not have a uniform service dispensation in respect of school board secretaries. This is something we inherited, but we are looking into the matter to see whether we cannot introduce uniformity. The office of the Commission for Administration, after they had been requested to look into this matter, investigated the desirability of establishing a separate occupational category for school secretaries, but found that it was not possible, within the ambit of existing professional categories, to take care of the interests of all parties.

The hon member for Groote Schuur argued against this, but unfortunately he is at the wrong Vote discussion now. Possibly he should discuss this matter during the discussion of the Vote of my hon colleague. We nevertheless support the hon member when he says that school secretaries do excellent work, and we should also like to see an improvement in their salary position.

The hon member mentioned something else that I wanted to discuss, but I think I have said enough to him now about these things. He spoke about the maintenance services at schools. I can only say that this is done on a priority basis. It is the policy of the department that any needs which may arise are mentioned to the school boards by means of the school board representative. The school boards follow up the matters and refer them to the department, where they are placed on a priority list.

In respect of Mr Daan Hattingh from Rustenburg, whom the hon member for Delmas spoke about, I want to say for his information that no documents were brought to the attention of the department for evaluation or for complaint purposes. If this should happen we shall, on the basis of the Ordinance, order an investigation and the matter will be dealt with accordingly.

The hon member for Pietersburg discussed the children attending the Pietersburg English Primary School, a school attended by the children of diplomats from Venda. I want to tell the hon member that we are aware that these children are there. It is within our policy that the children of diplomats attend State schools.

The hon member asked of what importance the decision of the management council was. The decision of the principal, the staff and the management council is of cardinal importance. I know of no single case in which a child of a diplomat was admitted to any State school without the consent and recommendation of the principal, the staff and the management council being obtained.

In respect of certain English-speaking parents whose children were unable to gain admission to other schools, I want to say that the system we adopt is that of mother-tongue education. According to my knowledge an English-speaking child was tested, according to the system, by an inspector of education, and it was found that the English-speaking child could in fact be taught through the medium of Afrikaans, and that it was therefore in her or his best interests, and the child therefore was admitted. This is a system, a policy and a practice we have applied over the years.

The hon member for Roodepoort kicked up a terrible fuss about the possibility of all the schools being thrown open. They were harping on the same old theme. Since 1982 the hon members of the CP have been proclaiming that this Government wanted to open schools, in the same way that they claim that we are going to throw old-age homes open. [Interjections.] I challenge any hon member of the CP to prove to me and to the general public that a single State school has been thrown open.

You began with sport. [Interjections.]

What the hon member is saying is utter nonsense. When we challenge them that is the reply we get. I am now stating categorically that there is no State school to which a single person of colour has been admitted. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Brakpan must contain himself now. The hon the Minister may proceed.

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon the Minister?

No, I do not have the time. The hon member asked this a moment ago and he therefore knows that I do not have the time.

[Inaudible.]

Order! The hon member for Losberg must also contain himself. The hon the Minister may proceed.

Reference was also made to free settlement areas, to which the hon member for Pinetown also referred. In this House the hon the State President has already expressed an opinion on the education system within free settlement areas. He did so when the Free Settlement Areas Bill was being piloted through this House. The standpoint that was adopted was that one can provide education in free settlement areas in precisely the same way as it is being done at the moment.

I now want to say that the fact of the matter is that education is dynamic and does not want to stagnate. In respect of the policy in education—the hon members of the Official Opposition must listen carefully now—we are not ashamed to say that we have adapted the policy in education. In fact, as a result of the adaptation of the method within education we have successful education in this country, precisely because we did not stagnate. May heaven preserve us if the Official Opposition gain control of education, and allow it to stagnate within their hide-bound methodology. In other words, it is not wrong to change a policy or a method. Therefore, time will show what must happen with education in the free settlement areas and we shall in fact apply our policy there in the best interests of education. Furthermore I just want to say something else about the hon member for Roodepoort… No, I think I should rather leave that because I must deal with something which is more important.

I want to refer to the accusation made by the hon member for Pinetown pursuant to the one made by the hon member for Cape Town Gardens concerning the alleged amount between R1 billion and R1,5 billion which we are ostensibly wasting because we refuse to throw open the schools. I do not know how the hon members made their calculations. I want to tell the hon members that to my mind those calculations are not valid. The fact of the matter is that they allege this amount is being wasted as a result of the fact there are 278 576 empty places in White schools. I do not know whether the hon members have taken this into account, but there is of course a difference between the primary schools and the high schools if one uses the unit figures. What is more, if one takes the average unit costs, as they stand at present, and multiply them by 278 526 empty places, the figure is not nearly R1 billion or R1,5 billion. I want to tell these hon members that a falsehood…

What is the figure?

I am not going to work it out because it is not necessary. The fact of the matter is that it is nonsensical to advance that whole argument. It is futile because there are various places and in every school there are vacancies.

This has been the case over the years. Should one, because there are vacancies in specific schools, now say that we should eliminate all those vacancies and build one large school? Surely that is absurd! To advance such an argument is a futile exercise. [Interjections.]

†I promised the hon member for Cape Town Gardens that I would answer him.

Order! Unfortunately it seems to me the hon the Minister will not be able to do so because his time has expired.

Debate concluded.

The Committee rose at 18h20.

Mr Chairman, by way of introduction I want to react to a few comments made here.

In the first place, the hon member for Ermelo made a great fuss about problems concerning inadequately sized units of land in Pongola. The Pongola Scheme was surveyed before the last world war. They were economic units which initially failed, but farmers who became established there later fared very well. Increased mechanisation led to greater progress and at one stage very affluent people were living there. That is why mention was made of what they had accomplished there. They built and maintained their hospital themselves, and erected their own television mast, etc.

Now the hon member is requesting that more land be made available. Anybody must want to expand if he is utilising his land fully. He probably looks over his boundary fence to see whether his neighbour does not want to sell. We experience that too. There is nothing wrong with the fact that they are requesting land from the province, although it could not be allocated to those farmers exclusively if it were considered. I would think that, if the province did want to part with some of the land and it were done by way of tender so that anybody could tender, there would be nothing wrong with that.

But the hon the Minister said it was intended for farming purposes.

Yes, but it cannot be available exclusively to Pongola farmers. It should be offered on open tender because those people are quite well off and they are faring well.

The hon member for Kimberley North similarly appealed on behalf of the people in the scheme at Vaalharts. We know that that land is not being utilised fully because not all the land is arable. At the moment they are planning methods to cultivate the land better and to upgrade it. They are not asking for assistance but only for a loan to make this possible. I do not believe there is anything wrong with that. We should guard against our people becoming excessively selfish once they have become independent. We should not want to grab everything, but should allow others to have something as well. We should not want everything for ourselves.

I also want to follow up on what the hon member Mr Redinger said about the weedkiller which is creating problems. It is true that 2,4-D, which is a weedkiller for broad-bladed plants that is inexpensive and works easily, is also harmful. It is a type of spray which may become very toxic if one mixes it with an incompatible substance. If a different spray comes into contact with it by chance, it could be very dangerous. I do not know whether this is what happened where these unfortunate results were obtained but it is possible. I want to say that it is not only in Natal that this occurs, but we experience it in the Transvaal too, especially among vegetable farmers.

There has been considerable reference here to schemes which were instituted to assist struggling farmers. This is no longer news. Farmers are struggling after a drought of six to seven years.

Things are looking up, however. Last year they had a reasonable harvest; this year we expect a very good one. The wheat harvest has been good over the past two years so it is possible that many farmers will get out of trouble. Nevertheless there are some who have suffered so badly over recent years and have fallen so far behind that they will require quite a few good harvests before they will be out of the woods. To enable them to retain their farms in these difficult times, assistance was offered and various schemes instituted in the hope that the following year would be better—which was not the case. Every new scheme which was instituted did help, however. We succeeded in keeping farmers on their farms in this way. They are faring so well now that we hope we shall not lose them.

The Government intervened and we thanked it sincerely for the great assistance which was offered. This was done because we do not want to lose farmers. We did not lose them either; those relief schemes worked.

Meanwhile many people got cracking and devised schemes, but nothing could beat the schemes which our hon Minister, his two Deputy Ministers and the Department of Agriculture devised. We did hear that the CP had better plans, but we did not see the actual plan. I want to spend a few moments on one plan which was worked out and would supposedly be the very solution to this problem. I want to refer to the consortium which we heard about for the first time last February and which was bruited abroad as being the solution. [Interjections.] The Official Opposition said that this plan would be the solution. [Interjections.] It was drawn up by a certain Mr Dries Bruwer. Hon members know Mr Dries Bruwer. He is a CP candidate now. He will certainly be trounced if he comes up with such ploys. I do not see much hope for him. [Interjections.] Let us look at what the CP say. They say that they intend identifying farmers who have problems and who can be saved through the agency of district chairmen. This is already being done. [Interjections.] The ACL do it because they have people to carry it out; they investigate those cases. It is not necessary, however, to look for people. When a farmer is in trouble and has financial problems, he comes forward voluntarily to seek assistance. Consequently one need not look for such farmers.

The CP next say that they will use national servicemen to investigate the affairs of these people. This is no new departure because this is already being done. In other words, the State will still pay. I shall return to this. Then the CP will refer it to the Jacobs Commission. This is also a State institution consisting of people who are paid by the State. What are they going to do after that? After that national servicemen will establish what can be done. I really cannot understand why an existing practice which works well should be changed because Mr Dries Bruwer says he will do it better. [Interjections.]

There will be courses for these people and the financing will be left to the Jacobs Commission. Again State funds will be used. I then get to a recommendation on how funding will take place. I have never seen a bluff such as this before. It is the greatest nonsense and I do not know how the CP can dare to come up with something like this. They say that this scheme will ultimately finance itself through an investment of R16 million with Sanlam. In the next sentence they say that the organisation envisages obtaining these funds from the State. They intend financing it themselves—one could almost laugh—but they will ask the State for the money! Then they intend paying the State 4% interest on it. They will guarantee that but they also intend ceding the investment they make to the State. They intend ceding the money which they obtain from the State back to it and paying 4% interest. I wish the State could lend me that amount of money. I could give them more than 4%. They also provide for inflation by repaying it in the form of interest but, if inflation declines—and they actually want to guarantee this—I do not know where they will find it. They add that they will subsidise certain farmers from money generated by courses for which farmers have to pay.

They have a plan according to which they intend operating the matter. They want to spend an immediate R600 000 on office administration, from where the business will be operated. Worst of all, they have already appointed a committee to handle this. Why? The Agricultural Credit Board does this well. We know that all farmers are cared for and they are assisted. The same policy applies throughout the country and everybody receives the same service everywhere but now they come and say that another committee has to be formed. One of the first people to serve on it will be Mr Dries Bruwer and it states in brackets after his name: Chairman of the North Transvaal District Agricultural Union. In other words, he is to be appointed in a personal and not in his official capacity. He has therefore been elected and will stay there. If someone were to replace him as the chairman of that agricultural union, he would remain the person appointed to handle this matter. Then there are also Prof Groenewald and Messrs Retief and Kritzinger plus an official of the Transvaal Agricultural Union and they propose that the deputy chairman serve in an official capacity.

This plan cannot work. Even if they have laboured at it for so many years. The Department of Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure has achieved so much success in furnishing assistance that the Official Opposition has been literally mute in this debate. They have not come up again with those brash statements about how farmers were suffering, that we did not like farmers and did not want to help them. They did not again have nothing but abuse for the hon the Minister.

This does not work as easily as that. We have full confidence in the way in which agriculture is being managed. There are no problems. Farmers are faring well. As I said earlier, we owe this to our hon Minister, his two esteemed Deputy Ministers… [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I have neither the need nor the time to refer to the hon member for Meyerton’s speech in detail except to place on record that the NP this afternoon again excellently demonstrated its hostility toward the farmer and his organised institutions, specifically the Transvaal Agricultural Union, through the hon member by means of the derogatory references which he made.

Hon members must attribute my absence for the greater part of this debate to the debate on Education and Culture in the House of Assembly. This is the system which is followed here.

I should first like to ask the hon the Minister about representations from organised agriculture that the Designated Areas Development Act be amended to transfer the onus from the State to the landowner for proof that occupancy covers at least 300 days. The reasons for the representations are manifold. The solution to economic problems in the designated area, especially in the North Western Transvaal, is receiving preference. Merely to maintain the infrastructure is only part of the solution. The area also has to be made secure and here the Defence Force plays its part but the task of providing security is eased enormously by the physically present, active White farmer. This saves the Defence Force considerable costs and the farmer himself protects home and hearth.

The farmer has to make a worthwhile living from farming to continue his presence in the area. Uneconomic farming units are a stumbling block because they place viable farming in the balance. The department, the Defence Force and the district agricultural union’s investigations have brought to light that approximately 70% of the present units are uneconomically small.

A natural consolidation of units would be able to take place in normal conditions as units came onto the market, especially if State financing were limited to agricultural value, in other words to production capacity.

The problem, however, is that so-called absentee owners, that is people and organisations with powerful capital backing from outside the area who represent up to 46% of landowners, buy units at prices which are not related to the production capacity at all. In the Ellisras district, for instance, R400 per ha was paid recently whereas the carrying capacity is only 10 to 12 ha per unit of large stock. These representations in amendment of the onus of proof—one of many—form one important emergency measure to prevent further depopulation, to save existing infrastructure, especially certain farm schools, from going under and to place agriculture in a position in which the area can develop on a sounder economic basis under its own steam without excessive State aid.

Secondly, I should like to know from the hon the Minister what progress is being made with the institution of a substitute for area allowances which were discontinued as from 1 April. The abolition of these allowances, without agreeing on an alternative and putting it into operation, is unfortunately typical of the ineptitude and the crisis management of the Government and in this case of the Ministers’ Council responsible for own affairs. The reasons for this are as incomprehensible as the hon the Chairman of this Ministers’ Council’s TV interview the night before last. The fact that the investigation into effective recovery measures is apparently dragging on indefinitely in the designated area and results and Government proposals are not being put forward, is unfortunately also typical of the Government’s style of too little too late. One becomes impatient for the CP to come to power to tackle these matters. [Interjections.]

In the Government’s statement on the abolition of area allowances it is admitted that there were problems with the administration of the scheme from the start. The Government has only itself to blame for this and in any case it is no excuse to abolish something before an alternative has been found. The referral in the statement of those requiring relief to Welfare is humiliating and unfeeling toward those people who have been trying to survive the drought for goodness knows how long and providing invaluable service regarding national security.

Some of those present when the hon the Deputy Minister spoke in front of the Hoofstad Farmers’ Association in Pretoria on 14 March also state that the indispensability of the existing farmers to Defence Force action was denigrated and numbers of soldiers were quoted compared with numbers of farmers which weakened security arguments for relief measures to retain existing farmers. I shall not give details for the sake of national security. Nevertheless the Government should realise that, if it writes off these people in the designated area or does not appreciate them as they deserve, it is heaping coals of fire on itself.

I call upon the Government to institute a security allowance urgently, linked to security service, with retrospective effect from 1 April, to identify recipients through a special committee in every district concerned, consisting not only of a member of the Defence Force but also of representatives of the Police, the district agricultural union, civil protection and the local agricultural credit committee. I regard my proposal as an interim measure because the matter requires speed and this proposal will probably be accepted most readily. I want to emphasise, however, that I should have liked to appeal for a more comprehensive or over all approach in which the allowance would in preference be called a stabilisation allowance and in principle every input of every occupant of the designated area contributing to the stabilisation of the area would earn merit points for a allowance on a sliding scale. That is the approach which I would prefer to see followed. Certain categories of people, such as affluent people and absentee landowners, could obviously be excluded from the matter of benefits. That is why my formulation contains the words “in principle” as I have explained it now.

Mr Chairman, I shall react in full later to the speeches of hon members who spoke on subjects related to water and other hon members who are still to speak on water later in the debate. I therefore want to confine myself to a few introductory ideas.

Before doing this, I want to associate myself with other hon members who expressed their appreciation towards the hon the Minister of Agriculture who is dealing with the last discussion of this Vote in this portfolio.

I was privileged to work with and under this hon Minister and it was also his responsibility to see that I fulfilled my duties. He did this in such a way that he did not make it difficult for us to do our work. We shall miss the hon the Minister, and the farmers of South Africa will miss him too. If some hon members would also lie awake because of their problems as the hon the Minister has lain awake mulling over problems of a large number of South African farmers, they would also fare better.

On various occasions the hon the Minister had to make himself unpopular in order to negotiate for the South African farmer—unpopular among his colleagues and especially with the hon the Minister of Finance. He received no praise for this, only criticism. The hon the Minister of Education and Culture once said that he did not agree on the matter which the hon the Minister was advocating but he could say that he was probably one of the best champions which farmers could have. We hope that the hon the Minister will enjoy the best of health, since he will probably be living in a calmer atmosphere in future. We wish him many good years to come.

I also want to take the opportunity to thank the officials of this department sincerely. They have just experienced an exceptionally difficult time. They have done valuable work in particular since the floods, during the floods and also afterwards—from the person who did patrol work by bicycle along a canal right up to the Superintendent-General.

I almost feel obliged to tell a story about the hardships of one of these water bailiffs in the days when they travelled by bicycle to patrol the canals themselves. One of these water bailiffs had an exceptional friend in the section where he worked. The friend was exceptional in the sense that he occasionally made a little must for his own use. The chap was very far from the hotel and the bottle store. He therefore took a cement pipe, added a base to it with a copper tap at the side. He then made a little must in that. The water bailiff had imbibed somewhat freely that particular Saturday morning. On his return journey he had a little indigestion from all the must. On the way he bought some tripe. Owing to the lack of a basket, he dumped it inside his shirt. About halfway home the hot sun, the weight of the tripe and the must became quite too much for the chap so he fell off the bicycle. He obviously fell in such a way that he went to sleep right there.

By afternoon his family had become very uneasy about their missing father. They then took to the road which he normally patrolled. As they were approaching him, his wife said: “My children, there your father lies dead. There is the bicycle and there he is too.” Their suspicions were confirmed further because they started smelling the chap as well. As they approached, they saw that bluebottles had already started buzzing around him. Hon members can imagine what had happened. When the sun hit the tripe out of the north-west on a warm summer afternoon, the thing started smelling and the bluebottles had descended in swarms. As they drew nearer, they discovered the chap had only fallen into a deep sleep under the tripe. Such are the ups and downs of a water bailiff and an indication of what he sometimes had to suffer to see to the distribution of water in our canals.

In spite of the scarcity and the inequitable distribution of water, its availability has always been taken for granted in our country. If we open a tap or a sluice, we expect water to flow from it. In spite of the fact that water is life and gives life, most of us do not want to pay for it. We would rather pay R2 for a litre of carbonated cool drink but not two cents for a litre of water. Although water, next to land, is one of our most important production aids, it remains a cheap item in our production costs.

Because water makes lower-risk farming possible, it is essential that we ensure that this source which is in such sort supply is distributed very fairly as a national asset. We require effective management and distribution systems to do this.

This leads us to different ways in which water is distributed and used in private, irrigation board and State schemes. I should like to say a few words about irrigation board schemes in particular because these schemes are a means of privatisation and affirmation of the Government’s own affairs concept.

There are a total of 335 irrigation boards in this country, of which 255 serve White farmers exclusively. Our people, and also the State—that is the department—are endeavouring to have people switch to irrigation boards. Nevertheless this switch should be done with the greatest caution because, although it is accepted that irrigation boards can be administered more cheaply and result in lower taxes, we should be careful because many groups or farmers are not able to establish and take over irrigation boards. The reasons for this inability is their own economic circumstances, inadequate and uneconomic land, and also because the distribution systems of those schemes are not in such a condition that they can take them over. Consequently this means that such farmers should first be consolidated into economic units and that the State should repair those irrigation and distribution systems before such a transfer can be proceeded with.

This also brings me to the operation of different methods of irrigation. The main purpose of every system or method of irrigation which has to be used is to achieve maximum production per unit of water. That is the basic point of departure when a decision has to be made on what irrigation system can be used. In this way the climate, the nature of the soil and the crop have to be considered carefully when a specific method is decided upon.

Whereas conventional systems, such as flood irrigation, are labour intensive, we find that the more sophisticated system is capital intensive. When this sophisticated system cannot make a significant difference when compared with a conventional one to compensate for the greater capital investment which one makes in the sophisticated system, the problem is that the system becomes uneconomical and such a farmer then lands in financial difficulties.

The idea that, if a person only has and can use more water, one can increase one’s production proportionally, is a misconception. In the application of water too, the law of diminishing returns holds good. Consequently this does not mean that, for every unit of water one adds, one will receive the same returns in production. One is more inclined to run the risk of over-irrigating and then one is dealing with salinity, something which can cause permanent damage to land and crops. The choice of a system, as well as control of such a system, should therefore be carried out with the greatest caution.

It has been proved by scientists that by means of a slight adjustment to the electrical system—I am referring in particular to the control of such systems—a saving of R5 000 per annum was effected on one farm. It was also proved that production was increased by 50% with a better distribution system.

We can hardly build new schemes if we merely analyse them clinically and want to build such schemes purely on the basis of cost-benefit because the building costs of schemes, dams and distribution systems have risen and also because our cheap and easy dam sites in South Africa are already in use.

There are many reasons, however, why we cannot come to a standstill and have to take other factors into account because we have to stabilise existing schemes and grant them higher priority.

If I may tell hon members about a few irrigation board schemes which are receiving intensive attention from the department at the moment, I would mention that at Kanoneiland where we had great flood damage and where improvements are being effected in conjuction with repairs. An amount of R7,45 million is being spent there.

Nine other irrigation boards are engaged upon new works and improvements totalling R57 million. Then there are still quite a number of other existing and prospective irrigation boards where we envisage being able to erect a number of new works. This confirms that, although there is no justification from a production point of view to build and install new schemes, we nevertheless have a responsibility regarding the stabilisation of existing schemes. I say this from a production point of view because, for every new hectare of land which comes into production now, we know that maize, wheat, wine, dried fruit and anything which hon members can mention here today are suffering from overproduction in South Africa.

We shall simply have to stabilise properly but this does not mean that when we effect improvements we cannot expand at the same time if these can go hand in hand. If we discover one day that there is a shortage of a specific product in South Africa, we cannot suddenly start laying out new schemes that morning. It takes at least ten years from the moment one starts planning a scheme until the water ultimately flows onto those lands.

I shall let that suffice for the time being and react to other hon members later.

Mr Chairman, I take pleasure in speaking after the hon the Deputy Minister who has distinguished himself and dealt with this Vote so excellently. I consider the most important attribute of this hon Deputy Minister is that he pays attention rapidly to representations. I have mentioned his speed and I greatly appreciate the work which he does. I also associate myself with his words toward our hon Minister of Agriculture. I think that at the moment we must have the best team of agriculture Ministers which we have ever had. [Interjections.] They are people of whom one may be proud.

Irrigation farming plays a great role in the socioeconomic structure of the Republic of South Africa. This is 100% the case in the Bree River Valley—that is my valley. The expected rate of development in the country and the increase in the demand for water will soon make long-established methods of water management inadequate. New approaches will have to be developed to meet new challenges. Hon members probably all realise already that South Africa is a country poor in water. Droughts are normal and rainy years the exception. South Africa lies in a drought belt and is consequently a dry country. It is drier in the west than in the east. Although vast changes have taken place in geological times, in historical times the climate—that is to say as far back as reliable statistics extend—has in general remained the same. Nothing has actually changed since the year dot. The question is therefore not how the problem of drought may be solved but how to make the best use of the modest water supply at our disposal. Agriculture is the greatest consumer of water and efficient control and utilisation of this sector is therefore of the greatest importance in the institution of a national water strategy for the future.

I am very grateful for the book Management of the Water Resources of the RSA which is published by the Department of Water Affairs. I think it would be beneficial if everybody in the country, and farmers in particular, could take a look at this publication. It is stated in the foreword that simplistic instant solutions to South African water problems by large-scale and rapid development of all water resources are regularly proposed by an enthusiastic public which does not always realise the implications. Nevertheless this shows that our farmers can still think, since we are almost putting forward plans faster than the engineers can!

It appears that irrigation techniques which are applied, as well as irrigation layout, frequently give rise to the waste of water. In addition dams and irrigation furrows which are not watertight, and faulty planning are frequently responsible for water wastage. The saturation and brackishness which are caused by this are aggravated by the fact that provision was not always made for an effective drainage system in the planning and layout of the irrigation scheme. We have experienced all this in the Bree River Valley and we have tried to overcome it. If there are people who know brackishness, we are the ones.

Knowledge of the basic requirements for effective irrigation and water utilisation have increased enormously among irrigation farmers recently. Methods of irrigation differ like night and day. This change has taken place within a decade or two. Farmers are better trained and they realise that they have to become well informed in agricultural and engineering aspects of irrigation farming in order to use irrigation water effectively. It is no longer a case of merely sending a man to the lands to irrigate. I must say that farmers earlier certainly played around with water or wasted it. We can no longer permit this because water is too expensive and in short supply.

I need not emphasise the importance of agriculture. This has been repeated time and again. It applies particularly to the Bree River Valley area. That is our life and our all and we are 100% dependent upon irrigation water. The following shows that we know how to use it if it is available. Last year the KWV paid R324 million to the wine farmers of the country. The farmers of the Bree River Valley were paid R160 million of that amount; in other words, 42% of the entire harvest in the Republic of South Africa is involved here. We are those people.

Fresh fruit to the value of R82 million was exported from the valley. As regards the local market, the figure was R9 million. This meant R164 million in foreign capital. Proceeds from dried fruit meant almost R15 million to the farmers in our valley. These statistics refer only to the fruit industry. We employ almost 300 000 people and they are therefore all dependent upon irrigation.

There are many irrigation schemes in the Bree River Valley. The newest are all pumping schemes. We are very grateful to the State for these. The farmers in these schemes have great difficulty in making the grade, however, and fulfilling their obligations owing to various reasons such as costs, rising interest and increased power tariffs. I want to appeal to the hon the Minister that these farmers be assisted to make the schemes viable so that the farmers may first stabilise themselves before new schemes are tackled.

These farmers are the creators of living space within the area and they ease the population pressure on Cape Town and environs. They relieve unemployment by the creation of job opportunities. They contribute to the provision of staple food to an increasing population and to South Africa’s independence regarding imports, as well as to foreign currency earnings thanks to the export of agricultural products. Enormous State revenue is generated in consequence of excise duty on wine and spirits. People say that it is not the farmer but the consumer who pays this tax. If we did not make the thing, however, it would not be there to drink! There is a saving of foreign currency owing to the elimination of importing staple foods.

Mr Chairman, until the day dawns when we can get irrigation water to our farms by means of gravity, these farmers in pumping schemes will have to be assisted. As this is the last time that I shall be speaking here, I want to express my thanks again to the hon the Minister and the department for the great work which they have done. Even if people complain that farmers are struggling, we remain the backbone of the country. It is the best way of life that there is, especially if one is a wine farmer.

Mr Chairman, I have been listening to the words addressed to the hon the Minister from both sides of the House on his retirement, both the good wishes and the criticism. This reminded me of the district agricultural union committee member who fell ill and after he had been in hospital for a while he received a beautiful bouquet with a message attached to it which read as follows: The district agricultural union has decided by a majority of seven votes to six to send you this bouquet and message wishing you a speedy recovery. I sometimes get the same feeling here. We do, however, want to say thank you for what the hon the Minister has done.

He comes from my part of the world, the Western Transvaal. In the old days my constituency, Schweizer-Reneke, was his part of the world and I want to invite him to come back and retire there. He is welcome to come and live there peacefully among us. Some of his relatives are still living there. I have been working on them and they are almost all CPs. He is welcome to come back, but he must promise not to be a difficult voter and must not constantly threaten to stand against me as his predecessor did. Otherwise he is welcome.

Corruption has become a word which is readily bandied about nowadays. Unfortunately the problem is that all civil servants and all politicians are being labelled with the same tag. A recent survey indicated that the man in the street thinks that all politicians are inclined to be corrupt. I do not think this is fair to the politicians or the officials. My experience with officials is that most of them do their work faithfully and correctly and that this is an unfair allegation.

As far as I am concerned corruption exists when a person uses his position as an official to enrich himself. It is also corruption if an official or politician abuses his position of power to benefit someone else, for example.

When I was contesting the election in Schweizer-Reneke last year, I was very surprised how many farmers told me they were going to vote for me, but for the sake of their Land Bank or agricultural credit application they would have to create the impression that they were still members of the NP. The result proves that they kept their promise, but I really felt their considering it necessary to adopt such a standpoint was an overreaction, because if it were true that one must be an NP to get such assistance, this is the worst kind of corruption. I think we are all agreed that everyone’s tax money is used for this purpose and that this should certainly not be done on a party basis.

What was even worse was that in the election campaign the argument was used seriously by NP canvassers that it was no use voting for a CP MP because he could not get anything done for one up there. Up there would seem to be the department and eventually the Minister where one cannot get anywhere if one is not an NP MP. [Interjections.] I reacted vehemently to this and said that only merit counted up there and that it did not matter whether it was a CP or an NP MP who was broaching the problem.

Now that I have been working with the officials of the department for a while I can honestly say that I was not wrong to defend them. As regards all the problems with which I succeeded and all those with which I failed I honestly never gained the impression that anything other than merit was the reason for decisions taken by the officials. In the same spirit I recently recommended that Mr Jack Nel, a respected Nationalist in my constituency who is to retire, should stay on in a post which he holds in the department because I am convinced that his knowledge and experience is of great value to everyone, CP and NP. That is the one side.

On the other hand I unfortunately come across stories every day which seek to allege and prove the contrary. Innumerable examples are cast in one’s teeth in respect of undue preference for some or other reason, particularly party political affiliations. I must say this applies specifically at the local level and not at the departmental or higher level. It happens when a committee makes recommendations to a Minister, or a valuer must submit valuations to agricultural credit. I am aware of a valuer who blatantly told a man: It is a pity you are a CP otherwise I could have valued your land a bit higher. When I asked him to give me something in writing so that I could do something about it he became afraid and did not want to. I say this is happening at the local level. [Interjections.] I am referring to a specific case. [Interjections.] I would not say anything if I could not prove it. If I can get the man to bring his proof here I will do so. I am fighting against this and am defending the department and the Ministers. However, it upsets me if someone says something like this and it did happen.

In my small way I am going to do everything in my power to eradicate this, because this is corruption of the worst kind. In my heart I am convinced that the hon the Minister and the hon the Deputy Minister agree with this and that they will fight with me to combat this kind of thing at this level, where it frequently happens in a very subtle way. Against this background I should, however, like to put questions to the hon the Minister with regard to matters which are unclear to me.

I want to refer to two specific cases which I must explain. This concerns State land and its allocation. First I want to refer to the farm Duffield in the Vryburg area. As far as I could ascertain it is an uneconomical unit, without water, in the designated area. I want to know from the hon the Minister whether it is true that a decision has been taken that the neighbour—whose farm borders on one side of the land—is getting the first option on the land. I do not know whether this is true. Did the other neighbour have a chance? Was the land advertised before these options were given? Was there an opportunity for farmers in the vicinity to tender for the land, for example? I merely want to ascertain the procedure. If this is so, what is the reason for the decision taken in connection with the specific land? As far as I could ascertain the neighbour who got the first option is a businessman. He is not a bona fide farmer. And this happened in the designated area where in my opinion preferably young farmers must eventually be on the farm and would be an advantage. Is the land being offered at a market-related price?

The other case concerns the farm Vlakkraal in the Bloemhof area. I assume the hon the Minister is also aware of the problems in this connection. In this case farmers did have the opportunity to tender. However, it would seem that the hon the Minister and the department cannot decide which tender has succeeded. It is now 16 May and the persons involved say that this matter has been dragging on for three months now. The farmers who applied had to enclose a cheque. If I am correct the amount was 10% and as far as I know it expires today. Now I want to ask why a decision cannot be taken on the matter. It cannot surely be so difficult. The man with the highest tender is surely the person with the best chance. It is as simple as that. If the hon the Minister is considering not allocating it to the person with the highest tender he must have good reasons for this. It should also be easy to announce this.

I want to ask the hon the Minister whether the land has already been allocated, or is he going to allow it to expire irrespective of all the trouble and expenses which would go hand in hand with new applications. I should like to give the hon the Minister the opportunity to explain matters like this to me. I am convinced that there are simple, logical explanations which have nothing to do with any undue preference. Unfortunately cases like these give rise to all manner of stories in the farming community. I submit that giving undue preference to any person on grounds other than the merits of his case is corruption. I shall state my standpoint again in this election that in agricultural matters only the merits of one’s case and not who one knows or what political party one belongs to counts or should count. I believe the hon the Minister agrees with me in this regard. It would help if we could also avoid and eradicate apparent wrongs in agriculture.

Mr Chairman, I should like to reply to certain questions, particularly those asked by the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke. I am grateful for the attitude the hon member has adopted with regard to the circumstances he has mentioned here. No matter what party one belongs to, if someone from another party takes a decision one will be inclined to look for politics in it. It is certainly not always possible to divorce everything from politics. However, one must establish a basis somewhere, otherwise one is going to flounder about a great deal.

What we tried to do in the department was to introduce a system based on merit assessment, evaluation and equal applications, irrespective of the political background of an applicant. I do not want to say much about the examples mentioned by the hon member because it would take quite a while to explain all the circumstances. However, I am prepared to put everything on the table with the hon member after this debate and to explain that I reacted on the basis of the facts in front of me.

The fact is that after the Agricultural Credit Board, which is independent, had taken decisions and had submitted them to me, I simply asked certain questions. I asked questions about the issue of the expropriation of Duffield and Troubrige to get rid of a water servitude through Bophuthatswana. The State therefore actually incurred big expenses to get rid of that guarantee. It is in actual fact a dry farm, but it was advertised as an economic unit.

I then said, wait a minute. That is not right. We must look into this matter and solve the problem. The problem is that there are two separate pieces of land on either side which belong to one person. We decided we should do the right thing with this uneconomical waterless land and offer it at market value to the person who can consolidate the land best. If he does not want it at the estimated market value we will offer it to the second person. There are only two persons whose land borders on that land. That is basically the background. I should like to discuss the particulars with him.

You can do both at once.

No, but that does not consolidate the land. This mater concerns the consolidation of the land because there are two separate pieces of land on either side of it to which one does not really have access. Water is involved. It is not such a simple process. We thought of a public auction, but then there would be a chance that a person with financial means would purchase the land, and then we would be left with two pieces of land which were not really viable.

As regards the farm Vlakkraal; this farm was brought out last year for the highest tender. I eventually asked whether the person who had the most money would get that farm if we were to accept the highest tender. All I asked them was whether they were satisfied that we had really solved the problem in connection with an uneconomical piece of land in that area, or were we simply giving someone with more money another piece of land and had the farmer who could not compete, but who needed the land, also been taken into account? On the basis of that information we therefore suspended that tender and asked that the person should get the land on merit, in accordance with the Agricultural Credit Act, which provides that we need not necessarily accept the highest tender.

This is basically the background with regard to Vlakkraal. There was no suggestion of wilfulness. I am merely trying to get the right answer—the right land for the right man, without money playing a too big role. I feel that when I am dealing with State land, when one can rectify problems one must do so in some way other than simply giving the person who is financially the strongest a head start. We must assess everyone on merit, and there are forms of merit other than financial norms, but I shall discuss this in detail with the hon member later.

I want to reply briefly to a few aspects hon members have raised thus far. I do not want to start with the hon member for Lichtenburg. I shall say something to him later. I actually want to link up with the hon member for Wellington, who made a very responsible speech. He spoke about the co-operation between the Land Bank and the Agricultural Credit Board. I also want to refer to the hon member for Aliwal’s example of the problems in connection with applications between the Land Bank and the Agricultural Credit Board. Sometimes there is too much money, other times there is too little money and sometimes there are economic units, etc. This is true. I think every hon member can give exactly the same examples.

There is a need for the Land Bank and the Agricultural Credit Board to move closer together. At the same time, however, these two have totally different directives. The one deals with financially well-off people, or people with normal financial means, and the other actually deals with assistance programmes, which contain an ad hoc element. We shall have to find a mechanism for co-operation somewhere, because one does not simply get a category 1, 2, 3 or 4; there are always circumstances which cause the categories to overlap. This is what we are dealing with, namely to see to what extent we can co-operate and to what extent we can offer the farmer a single financing package in the long run.

There is a committee which is investigating this, but we shall have to involve the private sector in this too later on. It cannot end with the Land Bank and the Agricultural Credit Board, because many of our problems in Agricultural Financing concern the lack of trust between the different financiers, who are not willing to give a farmer a good package which will enable him to survive. We are dealing with this, and I think it is important.

In my opinion, to amalgamate it into one organization is going to cause too many problems because the directive and the responsibility are different. The one, the Agricultural Credit Act, gives Parliament a responsibility, because a directive is attached to it in the sense that a specific amount in assistance must be rendered to farmers who find themselves in difficulties as a result of a disaster and there must be a report back after that. The other, the Land Bank Act, is on-going financing which generates money itself and lends out money itself. In a certain sense it is therefore not dependent on the Government for money to implement its programmes. I therefore do not think it is possible to get these two to co-operate.

†The hon member for Groote Schuur asked about the agricultural colleges and whether only Whites have access to them. Generally speaking, they are White own affairs training facilities. At present, there are two Indians undergoing training at the Cedara College, due to specific needs and circumstances. We do not keep these colleges exclusively closed, but we have an application system, and the applications exceed the capacity that we have, nearly twofold. So if we bring in a merit test—which we have, and which is open to all—it will any way be an exclusively White college, due to the education system that we have.

*That is why it is important for us, when a need arises for such colleges, to assist other population groups to establish such training facilities.

The hon member for Dysselsdorp in the House of Representatives received his training at Elsenburg Agricultural College in Stellenbosch, for example. However, we later expanded to Kromme Rhee, which has a training facility for Coloured farmers.

†There are also a number of Black colleges in the self-governing states which give training to Blacks. Thus we have a system in which we can accommodate them.

*The hon member for Greytown spoke about small-holdings and assistance to farmers. If one considers what a farmer is, one finds that it is always a combination of the person and the land. There are many people who can earn quite a bit more money farming on two or three hectares than someone else can earn on one thousand hectares. It has far more to do with the person; the entrepreneur; the person in charge (jokkie), than merely the size of the farm. That is why we use the following guideline.

When a person generates more revenue from the land than he gets from outside revenue, we consider him to be a farmer. Then he also starts coming into consideration for that kind of financing. Otherwise we have a problem with people who come from outside and simply bedevil the agricultural market. We have now plugged the loophole, ie a person cannot write off more on a small-holding than he can earn from it. That tax loophole has therefore really been plugged.

Mention was made of the settlement of young farmers. We try to give preference to young farmers. However, it is not easy, because a young farmer usually has nothing except an ideal. The person who obtains State land must be bound in some way, so that the actions and decisions he takes will have repercussions for him. If we were to give him land and finance, the State would be taking all the risks, because if that person made a mistake it would be the State that would lose.

Consequently he must contribute one third of that capital investment, in other words one third of the purchase price or one third of the livestock. He must in some way or other be committed to looking after the capital for the land the State has entrusted to him. If he goes bankrupt, not only the State will lose, but he will lose too. That is why it is really difficult to help young farmers today who have not yet had the opportunity to build up capital. We therefore give attention to farmers who are share-croppers, tenants, foremen and part-time farmers, and men who are farming on uneconomical units; in other words people who have already saved some money and can put something in the kitty in order to share in what we allocate to them.

We frequently lease land to a deserving farmer for four years at a low rate of interest so that he can build up capital, after which we sell the land to him at its agricultural value. In this way we settle a taxpayer who in the long run can to a certain extent compensate the State for the benefit he received. Basically this is our point of departure.

We have, for example, settled 16 applicants, with an average age of 35 years, in the Western Transvaal. I think this is a fairly young age. With today’s farming, with its high capital and management efficiency requirements, one cannot simply take a person and put him on a farm. Frequently that person only has the ideal to farm; he often does not even have training for it. One simply cannot take such a person and put him on a farm any longer. We therefore give preference to young people with experience in farming.

The hon member also referred to the use of BHC on locusts. We used it to combat locusts. I do not want to say much about this, but the problem in connection with the use of BHC is that it was used throughout the world in the seventies. However, it was not only used as an insecticide; it was used in virtually every household. It was used as a dip for animals. Because of the direct contact of BHC with warmblooded animals there was an accumulation of the toxin in the fatty tissues, which to a certain extent transferred the toxin to humans. That was why the registration of BHC, DDT and chemical substances with a long life was withdrawn for use on animals. However, it was not withdrawn for use on insects. At that stage we had no alternative but to use BHC for combatting locusts. It was used in low concentrations in the veld. On the land and on plants it is not transferred to animals. It is when one dips the animal or when the toxin comes into contact with the skin that it creates this cumulative problem.

We did look for alternatives, however. We had a supply which we have used up in this campaign. I merely want to repeat that we killed 85 000—not 8 500 as was reported in the Press—voetganger swarms. We killed almost 10 000 swarms of flying locusts, some of which covered an area 18 km in width and 65 km in length. We virtually exhausted our available supplies of poison. We have therefore used up this poison. There is no more BHC. In future we will use phenitrothion and peirotoides, which has a lower short life, but which interestingly enough, has a far greater impact on insects than BHC does.

We are also investigating whether we can get away from toxic substances altogether, because we are also careful about spraying our veld with toxic substances, which have an adverse effect on man and nature in the long run. We want to investigate biological control, such as the development of fungi. We want to use fungus instead of toxic substances on the locusts. That is why we are also using some of these finds for research on locusts, so that we can see whether we cannot find alternatives. Hon members can therefore appreciate our dilemma. We are not exposing man directly, but indirectly. According to figures at our disposal the levels of toxicity in the bodies of those persons who have been tested and the samples which have been taken, are not above normal. That is why it is important to see this in perspective.

The hon member for Bethal preferred to high extraction coal. This is a topical problem and I would be glad if he made inputs in respect of this problem. We shall then look into this. The investigation is making progress, and we are now in the process of solving problems. This is a topical problem and I think we must address it. I am therefore waiting for information in this connection.

The hon member for Pinetown and the hon member Mr Redinger referred to insecticides and hormonal weedkillers. In this regard we are engaged in alternative research. I have so much information on this and there are so many interesting aspects in this connection that I am actually sorry that I only have about five minutes left. We are for example importing beetles to kill lantana. A leaf-sucking bug and leaf-mining beetles were released, and are solving this problem, instead of chemical control being applied. We have obtained parasites to kill satansbos, prosopis, prickly pear, water hyacinth, sesbania, bug weed, the Australian acacia and hakea, instead of using toxic substances.

I want to make another point in connection with the speech made by the hon member for Lichtenburg. I made a quick calculation. Our budget did decrease, but there was no flood or other disaster. However, if we do not take floods and disasters into account, we will find that last year R161 million was spend on research, which is more than we spent the previous year. The sum of R46 million was used for plant production, R30 million for animal production, R55 million for agricultural resource development and R30 million for development of entrepreneurs. This is important, because the survival of agriculture depends on this.

I now want to react to the hon member for Meyerton who dealt with the consortium circumstances. I am glad that the CP has also dissociated themselves from the consortium. I want to tell the hon member if there is a way in which we can assist farmers, let them come forward. I do not think they have much of a chance, because the consortium plan—as the hon member has found out for himself—has too many shortcomings. Let the assistance scheme be used to help farmers. I have no problems with that.

They are being belittled.

That is because we were confronted with this.

I want to dwell for a moment on the hon member for Potgietersrus who spoke about the security allowance which is ostensibly not being used correctly in the designated area. That area allowance has been discontinued because of a shortage of money, but also because of irregularities. I could no longer justify paying a rich man R500 per month whether he needed it or not. He need not even perform a security function or whatever. That is why we discontinued this and said that the State would help the man who does not have food. The assistance and the allowance must be linked to security, and it is a Defence Force strategy. The hon member will find that we are going to introduce a meaningful alternative through the task force—we are in the process of doing this—in which the compensation in the designated area is linked to achievement.

We now come to the second point. I still have two minutes left in which I want to put this important point in connection with the matter of compulsory occupation. The hon member would seem to have condoned this here indirectly. What do we want to achieve in the designated area in the long run? Do we want to perpetuate the problem, because that is what will happen, or do we want to solve the problem? It is of no avail for us to say what other people are saying in this connection. We must tell them what to say for a change and identify the problem. An equal security obligation must be placed on everyone who owns property in the designated area. Whether he lives in Pretoria or in Messina, he must accept responsibility for the security there. How he does this is his affair. The Defence Force must lay down norms for us which must be complied with. Whether the man living in Pretoria does this by going to live there or he pays his neighbour to do it on his behalf does not matter. He need not do it at all, and then the Defence Force will do it for him and send him an account. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon the Deputy Minister has replied with regard to the use of BHC. I was actually amazed to hear him say that it had been used on such a large scale. After the great debacle, or let us rather say outcry, of the 1986-87 season, it was decided at that stage, if I remember correctly, that he would in future make use of the other agent. [Interjections.] Yes, he said he would in future make use of the other agent… [Interjections.]… yes, he was to have used phenitrothion. This had supposedly been stockpiled, but why was it not available in usable quantities?

The outbreak was so large that we could not use it.

That is interesting. If the hon the Deputy Minister says that BHC is not totally banned… [Interjections.] If it is banned, why is South Africa still retaining quantities of it? If one knows one cannot use it, why do we not have sufficient other stocks?

I read in the report that the hon the Minister said that the combinations of deltamethrin and phenitrothion had been tested. It says “examined as possible toxicants”. The word “examined” and testing sound like two fairly different things to me. Have field tests been conducted with the new agent under South African conditions, and do we know how well it breaks down? Is it being monitored, and where is it being monitored? If this is the only agent, and apparently the major one which we are going to use, are we once again going to wait until people have built up tremendously high contents in their bodies before we shall know precisely what effect it has? Are there any research projects in full swing in this regard?

Perhaps it does not sound so simple, but one must bear in mind that South Africans have twice as much BHC in their bodies as any other nation. We also hold world records with regard to animals that have exceeded the former world record held by a crow in Japan not once, twice or three times, but, in the case of an owl, by as much as five times. [Interjections.] A long-eared jackal from South Africa exceeded the former world record, held by that Japanese crow, 20 times.

The hon the Minister has just said that the use of the agent is not transmitted to people, except as it was used in the past through dipping processes, etc. I want to ask the hon the Minister whether it can be transmitted by animals in the veld and whether, for example, it can end up in sheep and mutton after the veld has been sprayed with it. I now ask the hon the Minister where this terrifically high number of swarms that have been eradicated, may be found. Were they in areas in which sheep are cultivated? [Interjections.] I beg your pardon. I mean where people farm with sheep. Is there any control over the sheep in those areas at this stage?

There are no increased figures at the moment.

There are no increased figures. We would like to see the figures.

[Inaudible.]

Order! The hon the Deputy Minister must not allow himself to be provoked in this way. [Interjections.]

Just a few of them. There are a whole host of questions, as I say. I also want to ask the hon the Minister if he is aware as to whether we no longer have any BHC in South Africa. Does the Government no longer have any? Has it now gone, or is it privately owned?

There is one bag left. [Interjections.]

Are there any other hon members who have some to offer? [Interjections.] I understand that many farmers have it in their possession and that they are apparently using it extensively for other applications, such as the destruction of lucerne-worms, for example. Can the hon the Minister say that a measure exists to ensure that the present private ownership of BHC is being controlled? Is there any control over whom it is sold to and when it is sold, so that one can go and eradicate it from South Africa’s soil? As I say, we have a world record insofar as quality is concerned, and I think that our record with regard to the use of this agent simply does not come up to standard. [Interjections.] I ask the hon the Minister this because it is his problem—it is not my problem. My problem is that I eat mutton, etc, and my family and I are suffering as a result of this. It is the hon the Minister’s duty to get rid of it. [Interjections.]

The hon the Deputy Minister did not reply to my question regarding the use of the 2,4-D in Natal, but I assume that the hon the Chief Minister will reply to this. [Interjections.] Surely if the one is Deputy Minister, the other is Chief Minister. [Interjections.]

The following question relates to the use of other spraying agents such as, for example, those that are used for locust plagues in our national parks and conservation areas. What is the policy in that regard? I am not referring specifically here to BHC, apart from briefly asking whether BHC was, in fact, used in conservation areas.

No.

Mr Chairman, I want to ask the hon the Minister what our policy is in this regard because our conservation areas are supposed to be as natural as possible so that one will always be able to refer to them in future and say that this is how the land was before man touched it. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I should also like to pay tribute to the hon the Minister. I want to tell him that we as farmers are very grateful to him for what he has done for our community over the years. I think it should also be mentioned that the non-farming community, or the consumers, are also grateful to him for the contribution he has made to agricultural food production in South Africa.

I do not want to respond to the hon member for Greytown. I just want to tell him that the safety measures relating to poisons in South Africa are among the most stringent in the world. As exporters, we have to comply with all the provisions of more than 42 countries. In any event, we have to accept the most stringent measures of all those countries in the world. In my view, South Africa generally acts very responsibly in this regard.

I want to talk for a while today about micro-irrigation, and particularly about systems such as drip irrigation and micro-jets. According to Bucks and Davis, there are already 44 000 ha under drip irrigation in South Africa. If one takes all the drip irrigation in the world together, this means that the drip irrigation in South Africa already amounts to 10% of that figure.

If drip irrigation systems are installed on the right land, in other words, where adequate lateral water distribution takes place and where these systems are operated correctly, they are unrivalled by other permanent irrigation systems insofar as water conservation is concerned. Water conservation is of cardinal importance in South Africa. The efficiency with which it is applied, is of the greatest importance. The hon the Minister said that water was becoming an increasingly scarcer resource in South Africa.

I do not want to enter into a debate today with regard to the mutual advantages of drip and micro-irrigation, but I want to briefly analyse the general advantages as well as the problems of these two systems. One of the advantages of micro-irrigation is that evaporation is to a large extent eliminated during application.

Secondly, through regular application, the land may be retained almost permanently at groundwater capacity. The desirability of this is being questioned to an ever increasing extent and the desirability of placing the plant under temporary turgor, is being increasingly emphasised. It is alleged that Barlinka grapes colour better if turgor takes place. It is also said that the ripening of Packham’s Triumph pears is enhanced by placing the plant or tree under turgor. Nevertheless, with the aid of micro-irrigation the ideal of the retention of groundwater capacity may be realised fairly easily. Sometimes irrigation takes place up to four times a day, and with the assistance of computer systems together with evapo-transpiration figures and tensiometers, irrigation may take place fairly efficiently and accurately.

One of the problems with tensiometers is the decision as to where on a piece of land the tensiometer should be placed. An acre of land will normally comprise at least two or three different types of soil.

In the past I have become involved in many arguments with officials of the department with regard to tensiometers. I have always asserted that the best place to put the tensiometer is behind the door of the farmer’s office because it is there that it can cause the fewest problems, and if it is read incorrectly it does not affect the yield of the harvest.

Because irrigation systems are capital intensive—the present cost of installation is approximately R3 000 per ha—a high degree of management skill is required and the maintenance of systems is of paramount importance in order to avoid problems. The most well-known and extensive problem which occurs in practice, is that of blockage. I personally have had to deal with this problem over the years and I should like to express my gratitude and appreciation to those officials who furnished me with advice. In this regard I am referring particularly to officials of the Department of Agriculture such as Dr Deist of the VORI and Dr Piaget, who is responsible for the Winter Rainfall Region. A specific official was appointed to investigate this problem and Mr P A Myburgh of the VORI is to be congratulated on the thoroughness of his investigation and the dedication with which he approached his task.

Blockages are caused mainly by high concentrations of solids such as salts, iron, manganese and micro-organisms. According to Prof Henry-Ford of the University of Florida, blockage material is identifiable by the colours of the various deposits. A white deposit is indicative of salts, iron leaves a rosy colour and black deposits are the result of manganese or micro-organisms. Uncertainty still prevails with regard to the mechanisms involved in microbiological blockages. One organism has been identified, namely sphaerotilus natans. This is a member of the slime family, but there are probably many others, and uncertainty prevails as to whether they may be classified as microfauna or flora. It is suspected that favourable conditions for high microbiological activity prevail in zones of low turbulence or at times when water lies in the pipes between irrigation times.

With regard to these problems I believe in the old expression that prevention is better than cure.

†Although there are methods whereby these problems of blockage can be cured I think prevention is a far cheaper method of achieving our aim. In the same way that we are admonished to prevent heart attacks by regular exercise and a correct diet and life style so we should prevent clogging of micro-irrigation systems by proper preventive measures.

I believe that an awareness campaign should be launched to bring home to the irrigator, the design engineer and the manufacturer of irrigation equipment the necessity of the correct management measures to remedy the problem. The reaction of the manufacturing industry to date has been most disappointing if not nonexistent. They have taken the attitude of an ostrich with its head in the sand. If you keep it there long enough the problem will go away.

*What practices may be employed in this battle against blockage? They are the regular cleaning of storage dams and the use of a pre-growth hormone herbicide such as Simazine. Use is also made of copper sulphate and various forms of chlorine. Moreover, the rinsing of filters and lateral branch lines, as well as the regular replacement of filter sand, ought to become standard procedure. I think the most important aspect is the regular sterilisation of the system through the application of some form of chlorine. Chlorine may be administered in various ways. It can be administered as a chlorine gas or liquid hypochlorite or in solid form, as granules or pills. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I am pleased to take part in the debate on behalf of this side of the Committee. With reference to the hon the Deputy Minister’s speech earlier on in connection with the co-operation or possible co-operation between the Land Bank and Agricultural Credit, I want to place on record that I personally have experienced good unofficial cooperation between the Land Bank and Agricultural Credit, and in this regard I want to pay tribute in particular to Mr Fanie Hugo and Mr John Rademeyer for the fact that their doors are always open and they always appreciate the problems the farmers have to contend with.

Coming from the Western Transvaal, I should like to devote a portion of my speech in a light-hearted mood to the queen of the Western Transvaal, who is well-known to all of us but whose value is not always fully appreciated. I believe that the hon the Minister, who is a native of the Western Transvaal, is well-acquainted with the queen of the Western Transvaal. In fact, as far as I can see, our hon Minister does not have many grey hairs, but I think that the few he does have were caused by this queen of the Western Transvaal. I want to add that if our hon Deputy Minister remains in this post for long enough, then, with all due respect, we shall shortly be sitting here with a snow-white “crow”.

I therefore wish to refer to—

Mr Chairman, you will now know what her name is. It is the very well-known and much-loved mealie. I have said this in a light-hearted vein about the queen of the Western Transvaal and all her admirers, the maize farmers.

The maize farmers in my constituency, just like the maize farmers from other regions, are still engaged in a fight for survival, despite the good rains and the reasonable harvests that are being predicted. The Government’s economic policy is causing the decline of the South African society, including the decline of the agriculturist, and in particular the decline of the maize farmer in South Africa.

Up until the mid-seventies the gross domestic product increased rapidly enough not only to accommodate the growing population, but also to raise its average standard of living. Since then, however, the economic growth has not been able to satisfy even the population increase.

The per capita income is dropping and the population is becoming impoverished. The decline is illustrated in a shocking manner by the erosion of the international status of the rand which was worth $1.45 in 1974 and which this year is worth less than 40 American cents. The Government’s obsession with, inter alia, parity at all costs, regardless of whether or not it keeps pace with increased productivity, has caused the inflation rate to sky-rocket and has therefore resulted, inter alia, in it no longer being possible to produce maize at a profit.

In certain areas of the Western Transvaal the input costs have increased in one year by R110 per hectare, or R55 per ton. Not long ago it was still being said that interest rates would decline, only to be followed by the umpteenth interest rate increase within a few months. Interest represents agriculture’s largest single cost item and has already affected agriculture to such an extent that many farmers with a normal debt ratio can simply no longer cope with the high interest rates. If this continues, the role of agriculture in the economy of the country will in due course become totally dwarfed.

After all, agriculture is of greater value to the economy than many people are inclined to think. The late Dr Kerneels Human said quite recently that if the economic activities of agriculture’s allied industries are taken into account, agriculture contributes 11% directly and indirectly to the South African economy.

It is estimated that the maize industry will earn in the region of R1 500 million in foreign capital by way of its exports, and for this reason I ask whether agriculture, as an earner of foreign capital, may not also rightly lay claim to export incentive aid.

In the half a minute at my disposal, I want to draw hon members’ attention to another important matter, namely the issue of invader plants in my constituency and particularly in the Swartruggens area, where the Acacia Tortillus annually destroys literally thousands of hectares of grazing along that border. [Time expired.)

Mr Chairman, I want to tell the hon member for Ventersdorp that I think he made a very good, well-balanced speech on the maize industry. It is just a pity that he made a few political remarks in that connection. He has just read out such a fine poem about the mealie. I really am saying this with great piety towards members of the AWB on the other side.

Where we come from we have a little joke which goes as follows: Have you heard about the new mealie that we have cultivated? It is a mealie with a great deal of fibre and very little substance, the so-called AWB mealie.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member—I do not know whether he has heard—whether he knows that where we come from we have a few NP mealies…

Is it a question?

I am asking the question!

Order! The hon member must not make a speech.

I am asking whether he has heard about the NP mealie where we come from. It has a large head, but no substance. [Interjections.]

Firstly, I should just like to address a few words of sincere gratitude to our hon Minister as well. During the previous debate on agricultural economics and marketing I personally thanked the hon the Minister for his six and a half years’ service to this industry. However, I think it is important this afternoon that I should also address a sincere word of thanks to him on behalf of the co-operatives. We at Unie Graan always found his door open. He always understood the problems which the co-operatives had because he himself grew up within the co-operative milieu and for this reason we just want to tell him that we hope that he will always remain a very great friend of the co-operatives.

Whenever I looked at the way in which he handled his department, I was always reminded of Mark Twain and of the words he said on one occasion. He said, always do the right thing. It will delight some people, and amaze the rest. When we look back at what the hon the Minister of Agriculture has done over the years, we will see that he has always tried to do the right thing for agriculture in South Africa. I also want to address a word of sincere gratitude to the hon the Deputy Minister of Water Affairs and of Land Affairs for what he has done in recent times, and particularly during the past year, for the farmers and the irrigation schemes.

I want to touch on two matters this afternoon. One deals with the Sand-Vet Government Water Scheme to which I referred approximately two years ago. We requested the Department of Agriculture and Water Supply to assist us in an investigation into precisely what the problems were in respect of the Sand-Vet irrigation scheme. The scheme has progressed very well so far in the sense that the West-Central Cooperative provided us with the people to launch the investigation. The department gave us an overall co-ordinator, Dr Robbertse, from the Free State region. By December 1987 the report was ready, and after the investigation committee had considered it, we were able to present it to the two hon Deputy Ministers in the course of 1988.

Some very important recommendations were made in the report. In this respect we received replies from both hon Deputy Ministers. At the beginning of this year this investigation committee as well as the Water Affairs Committee of the Free State Agricultural Union considered the replies of the hon Deputy Ministers. I want to say at once that we tried to influence these people to make recommendations that would require a minimum of money from the State. We therefore tried to see what ways we could find of improving this entire scheme without really having to take hand-outs from the Government. Quite a number of recommendations were made. However, I only want to highlight three of them.

Two of the recommendations concerned the Department of Water Affairs. They deal with the following: When one looks back at the history of the Sand-Vet Scheme one realises that the stabilisation of the scheme’s water supply in the long term deserves some attention. We therefore addressed a request to the Department of Water Affairs to look at the so-called Caledon Scheme or the Highlands Scheme in order to see whether these schemes could, in fact, supply water to the scheme in the long term.

The other recommendation deals with the question of whether the water allocation per hectare is adequate. The Department of Agriculture and Water Supply will graciously assist us with the research in order to see whether the allocation ought to be changed. The third recommendation concerns the Department of Agriculture and Water Supply in the sense that they must appoint a permanent extension officer for us at Theunissen, or wherever, to serve this scheme. I could mention a whole host of benefits this afternoon in connection with such an appointment. The post at Theunissen is already being manned, but the extension ward of Theunissen actually serves three districts, inter alia a diversified agricultural region in which everything is planted, except chicory and dagga. When one looks at comparable regions, it is clear that one person cannot deal with it alone. We therefore wish to get someone there who can concentrate specifically on this scheme and who can unite this extensive area, which falls under various agricultural regions, into one close-knit area. This is a matter which in our view ought to enjoy the serious consideration of the Department of Agriculture and Water Supply.

The second matter I wish to raise, deals with the water tariffs under Government schemes. Unfortunately, due to a lack of time, I cannot speak about them at length. In 1966 there was a commission of inquiry into water affairs, the so-called Prof S P du Toit Commission, which made certain recommendations with regard to existing schemes as well as new schemes. In 1980 the Claassen Committee was appointed, and this instituted a further investigation into the pricing policy with regard to water tariffs. They once again made certain recommendations and adjustments with regard to the previous recommendations, and as a result of this the Government made certain decisions.

The hon the Minister of Environment Affairs and of Water Affairs also adopted certain standpoints in the debate on his Vote this year with regard to new perspectives which the Department of Water Affairs has in connection with these water tariffs. When one looks at these schemes in general, viz the financial decline of many of these schemes and the increased costs, there is little our farmers can really do about it. However, increased water tariffs are an item which the State really can do something about. In the past funds have been appropriated in respect of aid schemes. The question has often been asked by the hon the Deputy Minister of Water Affairs and of Land Affairs as to whether we would not have achieved far more with stable schemes, which would bring about stable agricultural production, if we could have invested some of this money in our irrigation schemes with regard to subsidies of some or other nature.

Mr Chairman, I should like to react to all the hon members who touched on water affairs. I should like to start with the hon member for Caledon. He referred to the technical advances in respect of the potential change that could be brought about with regard to agricultural land. The hon member is quite correct in what he said. If the hon member is present, I should like to tell him in passing that these were not the arguments he used when we were there in the apple orchards of the Teewaterskloof. Then the hon member told us that we could not take water into those rocky areas. It now seems he wants to take us into those rocky areas again. [Interjections.] I shall nevertheless be very friendly towards the hon member because he did not put his case in the form of a reproach.

As far as the Teewaterskloof is concerned, at the outset we made a free allocation of 10 ha, or the amount of land that was already under cultivation at that stage, plus the difference between that allocation and the allocation that was made by the Irrigation Board. Even now there is still surplus water in the Teewaterskloof, as the hon member pointed out. We are now also prepared to examine the distribution of this water. If this land to which the hon member referred has great potential in comparison with other areas which can also qualify for this water, we are prepared to sell water to the farmers in that particular area at a price which will then be determined. I have already agreed with the hon member that I shall pay a personal visit to that area on 13 June.

The hon member for Ermelo referred to the stabilisation of the Pongola. We launched an investigation at 19 dam sites in that area. They were eliminated, until we finally came to the Jagdrif Dam, which would have been the most economic dam. Unfortunately our good intentions were thwarted by a tremendous number of representations by a number of communities which would be very severely affected by the construction of this dam.

If we had overly concerned ourselves with representations of this nature in the past, no dam in South Africa would ever have been built, because one cannot build a dam without people being affected. However, this plea was of so serious a nature that we went as far as to instruct the HSRC to undertake an investigation into the social effects this would have on these people. The HSRC report led us to decide to reconsider the matter.

We therefore started to examine the second option, namely the building of the Paris Dam on the Bivane River. At the moment we are engaged in a thorough investigation of the area concerned. Therefore, as a result of the campaigns we have already launched, we have to postpone the construction of this project by a year. There are quite a number of reasons we can give for this. I want to give hon members the assurance that we are very serious about the stabilisation, and that if we do not build the Jagdrif Dam, we will definitely build the Paris dam on the Bivane River in any case. [Interjections.]

We are now going to examine the matter in detail, because we must weigh up the dam on the Bivane River against the Jagdrif Dam, and we must evaluate all relevant information as a result of the HSRC’s decision. If this investigation into the Paris dam indicates that it is totally uneconomic, we shall have to ignore the HSRC’s report and simply build the dam, since it will be an asset for the future. Unfortunately as a result of this report we now have to carry out certain detailed investigations.

I merely want to give a very brief reply about the available land to which the hon member referred. It is true, but there are various areas where land is available. The land to which the hon member referred, which is a nature reserve at present, is not regarded as suitable at the moment, since it is a great distance from there. There is however, other State land closer at hand which the task group is investigating at the moment. Then there is also additional private land belonging to stock-farmers which is also suitable for the particular area. The hon member will remember that we regarded the development of the Spoorweg Valley as uneconomic, but we recommended building a smaller scheme there. Our task is investigating this at present.

The hon member for Greytown questioned the Kalahari-East pipeline development. He said this would cost R300 000 per farm. I merely want to tell the hon member today that the Kalahari-West Scheme, to which he also objected, works exceptionally well. We brought great stability to that area and were able to keep those people on their farms during the drought. They could concentrate solely on getting their stock through the drought and did not need to transport water, as they would have had to do for years if we had not had this pipeline.

I want to point out to hon members that the Kalahari-East is also a border area which, according to various points of view, must be stabilised. It is therefore necessary for people to continue living there. Part of the land with regard to which we made the suggestion also includes the designated area that is dealt with by the hon the Deputy Minister of Agriculture. What is the use of having all these armoured vehicles, all this protection and all the rest of it, if these people do not have water? Then we could simply draw a line through all the efforts made by the hon the Minister of Agriculture.

If the Government decides that it is in the national interest for the people to remain in the designated area, it is also vital for us to provide water in these specific areas. If we simply took cost advantage into consideration, let me repeat what I said earlier in the debate, namely that we would not be able to build a single scheme in South Africa today, not even in Greytown, because we would not be able to prove that there was any involved.

We shall have to look at socio-economic aspects…

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Deputy Minister something? The amount of R77 million has been mentioned. There are 265 large-scale farmers. If one were to spend R77 million on a number of smaller dams and canal systems, for example in KwaZulu, how many people would one then be able to serve and how large a piece of land could we convert into fertile land?

If it were merely a question of agricultural production, and if one were to argue merely from such a standpoint, the hon member is right. But a moment ago I told the hon member there were many other reasons why we had to keep the people in these specific areas.

What alternative is there, other than to have these people remain in this area from a strategic point of view? The alternative is to remove these 250 farmers, or however many of them there are, from the area. They would then have to be accommodated elsewhere. We would have to create jobs for them and provide infrastructure and housing. That is the alternative.

Furthermore this area is going to become the meat larder of South Africa in the future. For a long time we had to farm with karakul sheep, because they were best suited to those drought conditions.

Now that we have water there we can also start to farm with cattle and this area can become the meat larder of South Africa. There is also the important point that this scheme makes provision for water eventually being brought to the rural Coloured area of Mier. We are making provision in the initial pipeline, for water to be supplied to them at a later stage. This also applies to the national park.

The hon member for Kimberley North referred to the water problems at Vaalharts. I merely want to assure the hon member that the relevant recommendations have already been dealt with by the Cabinet Committee on Economic Affairs and that these recommendations are only awaiting endorsement or approval by the Cabinet. In this regard we are ready to submit a White Paper which will be tabled before the end of this session. Once our budgets have been approved, we will be ready and waiting to start working at full steam in that particular area. Within a month or two we could therefore be working at full steam to introduce these improvements to the canal systems. I just want to tell the hon member that he is aware of the fact that we have already announced that we intend increasing the quota in that area, which will bring about a revolution in their farming activities. However, we can only do this after these improvements have been introduced. The hon member also referred to the provision of water at 10 mm per day. We eventually achieved that objective by the methods we adopted, but not in the way the hon member suggested a moment ago. The method we are going to use to achieve the same end result or objective is different to the one proposed by the hon member.

The hon member for Brits talked about the border problem. This is unfortunately a matter that the hon member should have brought up under the discussion of the Public Works and Land Affairs Vote. I could have given him a very comprehensive answer there. However, the hon member is very welcome to come and see me about this so that we can specifically look at this matter. Hon members know that in the Republic we have approximately 15 000 km of borders with other neighbouring states, each of which is dealt with on an individual basis. I would therefore be glad in regard to this matter, which does not actually fall under the discussion of this Vote, if the hon member would come and discuss it with me under land affairs.

The hon member for Worcester expressed his gratitude for what we had done for them. The hon member touched on the importance of the Breë River area and the stabilisation of this area. This matter will receive attention with the advent of the Worcester East Scheme which we announced and which is already under construction. We thank the hon member for the valuable contributions he has made in this debate during all the years I have been a member of Parliament. And he also brought a bit of life to the debate which can sometimes be so morbid, dead and dull as ditch-water. I also thank the hon member for his humour in this regard.

The hon member for Winburg referred to a number of matters. As far as the introduction of water for further stabilisation is concerned, this is possible everywhere, but the main factor here is cost involved. I do not want to talk about this, but should like to express a few ideas about the tariff policy. The Cabinet has already approved a new approach in respect of the department’s amended water tariff policy. It was difficult to convince the hon the Minister of Finance about this, but we did tell the Cabinet that although our policy was that the consumers of water should pay for the construction of those water supply works, we thought it was unfair that farmers, for example, should pay the full cost of a dam that is built on a river. We argued that this dam was in the national interest and that people went there to catch fish, sail boats and do various other things. Our point is that 30% of the costs of such a dam should be regarded as costs incurred for a national asset and not debited to the account of the consumers. This is the one important point we made that can lead to amendments being introduced and can grant some relief.

Another point is that we said that all these arrears, these accumulative tariffs, which people were not able to pay as a result of various circumstances, would be ignored and would not be taken into consideration in determining future water tariffs.

We also introduced an amendment. A policy decision was taken by the Cabinet that we should impose a levy of 20% per annum until we could eventually cover the operational costs of certain schemes. In this regard we also convinced the Cabinet that we wanted to implement another system and that although we would always try to keep to the inflation rate when increasing our water tariffs, we should always bear in mind people’s ability to pay.

The last hon member who spoke, the hon member for Wynberg, spoke about drip irrigation and the advantages of these micro-jet irrigation systems. He talked about the tensiometer which it is better to hang up behind the door. The department is investigating a meter which the farmer will actually be able to put into the ground. He can polish the other one and use it as an ornament when it is replaced by a better instrument giving him better readings on which to work.

As far as the hon member’s problem with the clogging of these micro-jet systems is concerned, it is true that iron and manganese oxidise when they come into contact with air and that they can form deposits in these micro-jet systems. There are various ways to overcome this. One could allow the oxidation deposit to settle in dams and then use the clean water in one’s systems. One could also increase the acid content of the water and reduce the oxidation process and therefore the deposit too.

The problem can be solved using these methods, but the hon member said “prevention is better than cure”. The hon member is right. He expressed a number of ideas which could serve as preventive measures, and we thank him. I also want to thank the other hon members who participated in the debate.

Mr Chairman, it is quite fitting that I am the last speaker before the hon the Minister delivers his reply. The two of us have known the Bethal farmers the longest. I want to tell him this afternoon that he is still very popular in Bethal. He is still well-liked by the farmers and the people living there. It is true that he lost the fight as a politician, but I can assure him that they still have a very high regard for him as a person, and I believe he will have proof of this each and every day—this true regard for him—once he is there on his farm.

Mr Chairman, I do not want to make a speech this afternoon which elicits improper criticism. I am only sorry that not one of our MPs in this committee concerned with high-extraction mining serves in the Eastern Transvaal. We are really dealing with coal, we have to answer many questions about coal and high-extraction methods and we do not always have the necessary knowledge because we are not a part of this committee. It is a great pity that the hon the Minister did not include one of us here.

Things are not going well for the farmers. Despite what members of the public say, things are not going well for the farmers. In 1980 the farmers were happy and content; in 1989, I must admit, they are sullen and grim. The first and most important reason for this state of affairs is the tremendously high interest rates. An increase in interest of 1% means an additional R140 million per annum that the farmers have to pay. An increase in interest from 13% to 20% per annum means an additional R1 000 million that the farmers have to pay. This is how the profits on farming are drained off.

It is not the farmers who have overspent in recent times. It is not the farmers who have heated up the economy. It is this huge cost item that is choking agriculture to death. Does the Government really want agriculture to recover? With such interest rates agriculture will perish. What good is an improved harvest if the interest rate absorbs the profit?

What is more, input costs are now really getting out of hand. It is anybody’s guess how the farmer is going to win. I cannot see how he is going to win with such tremendous input costs. Just take fertiliser, for example. Essential nitrogen, LAN, was R325,77 per ton in July 1987, 21 months ago. In March 1989 the price was R470 per ton.

How can one win? As far as diesel is concerned, in August 1988 the price was 51c per litre at the ETC, and in April 1989, 82c at the same pump. How can one win? Maize seed is approximately R10 more expensive per 50 kg bag since last year’s harvest. The prices of dips and dosage preparations have risen by up to 26,4%, as indicated in the latest Landbouweekblad.

With regard to implements, the prices of tractors have risen by up to 20% this year. How can one win? I see no hope for the farmer if the input costs increase at such an abnormally rapid rate.

And the maize prices? They are up to 14% lower than last year. And then we want to talk about happy farmers! There is no longer much happiness around. The farmer has fallen silent and is worried.

Let us take the question of diesel. Farmers in the Witbank and Bronkhorstspruit area complain to me that the diesel price in the KwaNdebele homeland was about R90 per 210 litre drum a while ago, while they have to pay R147 at the ETC in Witbank and Bronkhorstspruit. Many farmers are now saying that it is better to farm in KwaNdebele than in our own fatherland. The same is true in the case of fertiliser. What is going on here? Such price differences are a swindle.

Another matter which dumbfounds farmers and consumers is the maize price. The producer price is dropping considerably because there is supposedly too much maize and the price ought to drop. However, the consumer price increases by leaps and bounds! There is a difference of R142 at some places. Who is the largest consumer of maize? The farmer himself. In other words, this takes another bite out of the producer price. We do not have storage facilities and our only recourse would be to take the maize to the co-operatives at a lower price and again purchase the same cheap maize from the stock-feed dealer at exorbitant prices for our dairy cows or to build silos ourselves. This process makes quite certain that the farmer farms himself into a state of bankruptcy.

There are a few matters which affect the farmers in my constituency and which I should like to bring to the hon the Minister’s attention. The first is Rust de Winter. Rust de Winter no longer wants to rest. I do not know what is going on there, but there is no rest there.

Only winter.

Only winter. The farmers are unhappy. The department of Education and Development Aid must bring this business to a close and buy up the farmers’ land for transfer to KwaNdebele. However there is a great deal of procrastination and delay. The hon the Minister concerned told me that this would be completed this year. We must remember that it is the farmers interests that are at stake. There are seasonal problems and circumstances beyond their control that are of the utmost significance. Why can the farmers not have offers made to them as early as June and be paid out as soon as possible thereafter? They wait long enough as it is. I do want to lodge a plea with the hon the Minister on behalf of those farmers. He should go and have a look at what is going on and talk to his colleague so that a solution can be found as quickly as possible. Those farmers need his help. He must really get some life into the department, which is downright lackadaisical.

What became of the committee that was to investigate the water problems between the farmers and KwaNdebele? I saw tears flowing that would not have been flowing if there had been positive action instead of the mere promises made by numerous Ministers. When is the Government again going to develop some muscle to come to grips with things and push through for its people, who are the backbone of our country and our farming community?

The agricultural college at Nelspruit also deserves a few words. I believe the building has been completed. It is a beautiful, pleasing and utilitarian building and we want to thank the department for this. However, that is where it ends. Apparently there are no staff members.

This afternoon I want to ask the hon the Minister and his department to make use of the very skilled and successful farmers of the Lowveld. There are many educated people and graduates whose services can be employed. Their knowledge, both theoretical and practical, is of inestimable value for these young men, the farmers of tomorrow. Please, let us get this college going. There is a need for knowledge, and the land is waiting to be cultivated.

I am also glad that the Transvaal Agricultural Union consortium has already achieved positive results. They do not boast about this. However, I know of cases of farmers having gratefully acknowledged: “You helped me”. These are the true facts.

Name one.

The hon member can talk to the President of the Transvaal Agricultural Union and then pay a visit to the farmers who were granted assistance. [Interjections.] The hon member can go and see for himself. Assistance has already been granted in the very heart of the Marble Hall area. I am always prepared to give anyone a fair chance who really wants to fight for the farmers. I want to congratulate the Transvaal Agricultural Union on the efforts it has made and wish it every success for the future. This is an effort to help where the need exists. Why must we always turn our backs on them?

The assaults on elderly people on farms and smallholdings is, according to some people, now suddenly their own fault. In a certain newspaper we read, for example, of the negligence of our elderly people. Fortunately a few months ago the same newspaper stated “onskuldige bejaardes al meer aangeval”. Apparently 17% of all the elderly who are attacked, live on farms, and 12% on smallholdings. Some say the elderly must ensure that they have a whistle to raise the alarm. Then the attackers would take to their heels and help would come. But, Sir, when the CP comes to power, we shall transform this reserve—I do not want to use the word inferiority—which our aged have developed out of a fear of attacks and the anxiety in their hearts, and have free, happy elderly people living on their farms where they can breath freely and maintain their belief in God.

How? How? [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, firstly I want to thank the two hon Deputy Ministers sincerely. They replied very effectively to several issues of importance in their field. Consequently this does not leave me with very much to do. There are, however, important matters I want to discuss in depth.

I specifically want to refer to a speech made by the hon member for Sasolburg yesterday. He adopted a very important standpoint and made allegations about the aid schemes kept intact by the agricultural community in the rural areas. He referred to the role played by the various schemes. He also made the very important point that in the specific period in which agriculture finds itself, assistance by way of these schemes is, for the most part, focused on the average and small farmer in a situation in which, in contrast to times of prosperity, the larger farmers buy out the smaller farmers, resulting in the depopulation of the rural areas.

One of my predecessors, ex-Minister Dirk Uys, who holds the record for being the longest-serving Minister of Agriculture in South Africa—I take off my hat to him twice—always said something I will never forget. When wool was £1 per pound, one of the major problems of the small-stock grazing areas, particularly the Karoo, was that the large farmers bought out the small farmers, resulting in a depopulation of the rural areas. By means of schemes and campaigns, which we launched during this period, we chiefly concentrated on keeping the average and smaller farmers on their farms. Those are the 80% of farmers who furnish 20% of South Africa’s agricultural production. This is also in accordance with the recommendations of the White Paper because we want to keep the maximum number of economic farmers in the rural areas.

Another relevant statement which is also important, and which I want to react to, is that over the considerable number of years in which we have been engaged in these schemes—there have been approximately 40 of them—the image created by agriculture has not always been one that has gone down well with consumers. The average consumer is given the impression that farmers are the kind of people who continually ask for hand-outs.

I want to make the following statement today. Throughout these years there have been 5 810 farmers—the SABC misquoted the figure yesterday evening—who participated in the various schemes. This has stabilised the rural areas and the rural communities in these difficult times. If one had proceeded from the standpoint that these schemes were not available, one would have initiated an urbanisation process in South Africa which would have had financial and social implications that would have been far more expensive than the millions of rands we have pumped into this. I want the people who argue about this to take this into consideration too.

It was also important to introduce these schemes for the sake of the consumers and the taxpayers in South Africa. It would otherwise have cost them a great deal more. We have therefore warded off large-scale urbanisation. What is more, however—in my view this is one of the most important results of this campaign—now that we believe that climatic conditions have improved, the droughts have passed and we have entered a wet cycle, South Africa has succeeded in still maintaining the physical volume of agricultural growth, ie an average growth rate of 3,1%, as against a population increase of 2,8%.

If one bears in mind that South Africa’s agricultural resources are of the poorest in Africa—not to mention any comparisons with the Western world as a whole—let me tell hon members that that is indeed an achievement. It is an achievement, not only for the farmers, but also in terms of all the aid campaigns that have been launched to maintain the nutritional status of this country at a high level. We do not need to import food for our people. Our people do not need to stand in queues. The other night on television I saw a programme on Russia in which, in modern-day circumstances, people stood in queues to obtain food.

Those are important aspects. When we work for agriculture in South Africa, we are not only working for the farmers, but also for the consumers. The hon member for Witbank and other hon members, however, spoke about costs. I shall come to that in a moment. After this difficult period, however, I would like to see us making some or other scientific, economic analysis to determine specifically how effective these various schemes have been.

If one were in any way to try, even at this stage, to lay down some criterion, I would like to refer, in particular, to two schemes which give one a good indication. If one were to ask: If the schemes had not been introduced, would the farmers have gone bankrupt and disappeared from the scene? Let me refer hon members, in particular, to the crop-production loans we have made available. If one looks at the table of figures, one sees how the 1981-82 figure increased up to 1988-89. In some years, for example 1987-88, there were 3 259 applications, of which 2 834 were granted. That is 87% and represents an amount of R125 million allocated for crop-production loans.

If someone applies for a crop-production loan, he approaches agricultural credit as his last resort, because not his co-operative, his bank or anyone else is prepared to run the risk of financing him. If a farmer cannot plant a crop, he has had it in any event. I therefore take it that the figure of 2 700 or 2 800 possibly does represent the number of people that agriculture could possibly have lost if we had not had this scheme.

There is also another scheme, ie the debt-consolidation scheme. As hon members know, the problems have accumulated, but in the year 1987-88 1 061 applications out of a total of 2 177 were approved, which is 49% and which represents an amount of R130 million. Matters overlap, however; it is probably difficult to make a sound evaluation. When I examine these two schemes, however, my contention is that they have prevented 2 000 farmers from disappearing from the land, something which would have happened if these two schemes had not been in operation.

Except for those who did disappear from the scene.

I agree; some did disappear from the scene. The fact is, however, that over the past 10 years, according to our figures, we had 59 000 farming-units. This figure has remained more or less constant. Stock-farmers were thus assisted and we also assisted farmers in several other spheres. What is important about these 2 000 farmers I am speaking about, however, is that they are exclusively concentrated in the summer grain-production areas. In other words, in a specific localised area there would have been large-scale disruption of those local communities. I therefore want to proceed from the standpoint that we have largely made a good job of stabilising agriculture by means of the various schemes.

The hon members for Soutpansberg, Lichtenburg and Witbank spoke about the question of interest rates. They said that interest rates have become a tremendously large input factor, particularly in certain production areas. I think this is one of the major inputs, one of the major cost-items afflicting agriculture at present. Specifically as a result of poor climatic conditions agriculture has increasingly become dependent on external financing and is therefore particularly sensitive to an increase in interest rates. When the Government is confronted by a situation, however, the truth is that it must take certain monetary steps, for example by increasing interest rates.

We have recently found that increasing interest rates is not always the most stringent mechanism to use, because there is a large degree of liquidity in certain sectors of our country. These people spend money; they approach the banks with sound projects, and the banks, which compete with one another, do not want to miss out on this kind of business. Every time we have to take certain steps that do not work, the Government must subsequently come to light with new packages to combat this problem, and each time agriculture lands itself in difficulties. This makes severe demands on a Minister of Agriculture when it comes to highlighting the unique situation of agriculture under such specific circumstances. In the majority of these arguments I put forward to the Cabinet and to the hon the Minister of Finance I could succeed in doing so.

If a Minister of Finance and a Minister of Agriculture do not come into conflict, neither of them is worth his salt. [Interjections.] Let me be very honest now. We understand each other very well, and I think that we have, to a very large extent, succeeded in putting a damper on interest-rate increases to a reasonable extent. When we had the first interest-rate increase of two percentage points, we decided to subsidise Land Bank interest rates by a further two percentage points. The amount involved in this was R19 million. This specifically affects the carry-over schemes, drought-aid schemes, six-year schemes and the ten-year scheme.

Once again the Government was compelled to come to light with a package to cool down the economy. In his statement on 5 May the hon the Minister of Finance said that the increase in interest rates would not affect the Land Bank’s short-term rates. The Reserve Bank will therefore launch certain campaigns to combat further increases in these short-term interest rates, which will also influence the Land Bank’s funds—hon members will realise that the Land Bank is also largely dependent on the capital market for its funds.

I think this is a tremendous concession and a contribution reflecting tremendous sympathy in the specific circumstances, particularly if one bears in mind that one of the major crops in South Africa has not been harvested. Every time the interest rate increases, it has an eroding effect on the ultimate realisation of that crop. Once the farmer has harvested his crop, he finds that he does not have as much money in his pocket as he thought. That is consequently a gesture reflecting tremendous sympathy, and I think we should thank the hon the Minister of Finance and the Cabinet for having made that gesture.

I now come to the hon member for Graaff-Reinet who is not present at the moment. He made a speech about agricultural information. I think that agricultural information is definitely something we must make use of from time to time, not only to provide our farmers with newsworthy information, but also with a view to fully harnessing our media to improve the image of agriculture in South Africa. Communication in agriculture is an extremely complex issue, because 59 000 farmers are spread across 85 million ha of land throughout the length and breadth of the country. That is why communication and liaison between the urban and agricultural areas pose a major problem. The time we are therefore given by television and the SABC is of the utmost importance.

I want to come, however, to a statement made, I think, by the hon member for Groote Schuur. He made a statement about the farmers’ transport. He referred to a certain make of German car. I think hon members know what I am referring to. I frequently encounter stories such as these. I want to say today that many of our producers, particularly in certain areas, are not within walking distance of their doctors; they are not within walking distance of schools, there is no public transport they can use and there are no tarred roads. They have to travel hundreds of kilometres on farm roads riddled with potholes. Surely they cannot travel in some kind of rattletrap! They must drive a decent car. [Interjections.] I therefore have no objection to a farmer driving a decent car. I hope people will take this into consideration in future and stop making these contemptuous remarks about farmers supposedly driving around in such flashy cars. The hon member for Caledon also said so. [Interjections.]

†The hon member for Bryanston had a lot to say about soil conservation. I must admit that it is one of the most important issues—an absolutely vexed problem—in agriculture today. One of the reasons for this is that the necessary motivation must come from the farmer himself. There are farmers who went through very difficult times economically, with the result that they are not as motivated as we would like them to be.

The hon member for Bryanston also referred to the over-exploitation of the land, which leads to erosion, desertification and the loss of the water retention capacity of the soil. I agree that these are serious problems which affect the whole of South Africa, and not only South Africa, but also Southern Africa. I can assure the hon member that my two departments place a very high priority on research, extension and even law enforcement under the Conservation of Agricultural Resources Act. The National Grazing Strategy and the Marginal Land Conversion Scheme are both good examples of our concerted and co-ordinated efforts aimed at convincing farmers that optimal land use is the only long term solution.

As far as law enforcement is concerned we are seriously constrained by insufficient manpower. However, within the State’s staff reduction policy, with which I agree for various specific reasons, we need to make use of all the instruments at our disposal to conserve our natural resources and maintain our production capacity. Only a week or so ago my two departments had a special meeting to discuss the handling of this problem, and I hope that we will be able to make a positive announcement in this regard very soon.

*The hon member for De Aar spoke about agricultural labour. I think the hon member adopted a very important standpoint, one with which I agree. I think we have totally underestimated the value of labour in agriculture. Like all other sectors in South Africa, agriculture is in the process of developing. We are moving towards more sophisticated systems of production, and of course one needs labour with a better level of training. People who have a better level of training, however, also expect us to provide them with better social services, for example housing, education, etc. I think that is a very important facet.

At present negotiations are in progress, and proposals have been made by the Central Economic Advisory Service. That is a very influential departmental committee which makes certain proposals to the hon the Minister of Finance about a re-evaluation of our whole system of housing on farms.

The hon member also referred to my colleague who is responsible for health and who designed a certain scheme for his particular area. I think I replied to that in the previous debate. It is not a scheme that can be made applicable to the rest of the country. This scheme relates to special circumstances involving very labour-intensive farming systems in which project work can be done, for example the picking of fruit. There the idea is to establish labour towns of some or other kind. My hon colleague tells me that where he wants to establish these labour towns there is already a Coloured group area. It therefore does not encroach upon our principles.

A very important speech was made by my friend, the hon member for Mooi River. I am sorry I was not in the Committee when he had a few kind words to say about me, but I nevertheless appreciate it.

The hon member for Mooi River made a very important statement. He is concerned about the writing-off of R460 million in the maize industry possibly causing a precedent in South African agriculture.

He went further and, if I have interpreted him correctly, referred to the wool industry which also negotiated large foreign loans, is therefore heavily burdened with debt and consequently finds itself in difficulties. From the point of view of the two industries I want to tell the hon member that it is with great care and concern that we are examining this amount, which seems to be a fairly large amount. I have had two investigations carried out by experts and I have appointed the Brand Committee, its specific terms of reference being to examine the maize industry deficit in the stabilisation fund. I have asked what we must do about the matter, and the Brand Committee’s recommendation was that we should write it off. The Brand Committee, however, also stated that the loans which had accumulated over a period of 36 years had coincided with shortages and surpluses as we imported maize at a loss and at a profit. In passing let me just say that there were four successive years in which we exported maize at a profit of almost R200 million, without encroaching upon local supplies. There are consequently two sides to the coin.

I told the maize industry in 1987, however, that we would have to move towards a more market-orientated system. We cannot continue working on a cost-plus basis, because we are pricing ourselves out of the market completely, both locally and abroad. We then agreed to the implementation of an amended scheme for the single-channel marketing system. The stabilisation fund could not be allowed to get any further into the red, but at the same time it was necessary to examine the long-term problems of the farmers, and we had to look after the domestic market. This is the basis for this. This year the situation is such that within a question of 10 days the overseas market for maize dropped from $118 to $103, specifically as a result of the fact that the Americans increased their surface area by between 12% and 13%. That has an influence on the market. We do not know whether they are again going to have droughts, as they did last year. Then the situation could most probably change again, but how can a government lose sight of such a problem in the industry.

In contrast we have the wool industry. I can quote to hon members from the latest issue of Die Goue Vag in which it is stated very clearly, in the introductory article, that the wool industry is riding the crest of a wave of prosperity unparallelled in its history. If one looks at the price increases for various agricultural products over the past few years, one sees that wool is one of the commodities evidencing a real increase in very absolute terms. Because the wool industry is in a position to manage its debt, it is the Government’s duty to help the maize industry instead. Otherwise it would never overcome its difficulties.

A second important point is that we must establish sound, balanced systems of production in South Africa. I want to tell hon members this evening that if one were to add these additional costs which, at a yield of three tons per ha, amount to R15 per ton—ie R45 per ha—to a decrease of 12% in comparison with the previous year, maize producers in the summer-grain areas would change over from the maize industry to the wheat industry. What would happen then? Then this aid scheme we have launched in the Western and Southern Cape would be finished. Their ability to diversify is much less than in the majority of summer-grain areas. We therefore considered many facets and had investigations carried out by experts before we approved the drastic step of writing off this amount. Let me just say that it sounds as if this financing is a terrible step that was taken. The financing is basically being done from existing subsidies that we pay with respect to the storage, handling and compensation in regard to maize.

It is approximately R76 million. All we are asking is that from the year 1990-91, or perhaps a year later, the Government should contribute an additional amount, because at the moment one’s interest rate alone is approximately R80 million. It will take approximately 14 years to write off this amount, which will be about R1,4 billion or R1,5 billion. Otherwise the farmers would have to do so.

As far as the consumers are concerned, they are still buying the cheapest and best quality maize in the world. One cannot get a better quality of white maize on any of the world markets. One has to import this maize from Zimbabwe or Zambia. They do not always have maize available. I do not think we would like to import from them. We do not want to become completely dependent upon them. One cannot obtain white maize on the world markets. At present we are still using 3,3 million tons of white maize to feed a large percentage of our population.

Mr Chairman, I notice that the Maize Board now fixes the price without the approval of the hon the Minister. Does that mean that the Maize Board is now responsible for its own decisions?

Mr Chairman, it started in 1987 after I had many discussions with Nampo. They wanted a more autonomous body. They said we had to stop making political prices in this country. That is exactly what we did. The hon member is quite right. The Maize Board is fixing the prices itself.

It is their own baby now?

It is their own baby now, and they have to take the losses on the export market. That is very important.

*The hon nominated member Mr Redinger and the hon member for Greytown spoke at great length about the problem of hormone herbicides, particularly in the Tala Valley. I want to kick off by making the following statement. There are many very clear signs that people think they are going to succeed in their claims for damages by whipping up emotions and by means of malicious campaigns aimed at besmirching South Africa’s name abroad by presenting it as an “environmental horror”. Let me say at once that with all the campaigns and all the research carried out by the department we have proved, beyond all doubt, that there are plants or vegetables in the Tala Valley that have been affected by atmospheric residues, water and dew. The fact that they have been affected does not necessarily mean that the yields have consequently been affected. We have found that there are also other factors in the Tala Valley that can affect the yields in the process. Before we have obtained absolute certainty, based on scientific facts, we cannot give in to the demands of certain people to have millions of rand in damages paid out to them.

I want to make a second statement, ie that the idea or perception is being created in South Africa that 2,4-D is a poison. It is not a poison, and it has not been banned anywhere in the world. It is a growth stimulant. In human terms it presents no danger. It is a safe agent. That is why it has not been banned anywhere. We are channelling substantial funds into research. During the past year we have spent more than R800 000 on research. We have specifically sent people to England where the most advanced scientific research on these particular agents is being done. There is a court case pending on this issue. Evidence has been led. To date, however, it has not been possible to furnish any proof to indicate that the damage can solely be ascribed to 2,4-D.

The fact that we are considering stopping the use of 2,4-D in Natal on a temporary basis, as I said in a press statement, is solely for experimental purposes and nothing else. At present discussions are being held amongst the various industries, the forestry industry, the maize industry and the sugar industry, about the implications of this. We are now waiting for the discussions to be concluded to see what the situation there is.

The hon member for Bethal made a strange appeal to me, one to which I shall not react. He also asked us to look into the question of the extermination of termites and to treat this on the same basis as the extermination of locusts. There is a very great difference, however, between the two. The termite problem is much more localised, being confined to specific farms. Locusts occur in gigantic swarms and can denude the whole world overnight. There are swarms 60 km to 80 km in length. I do not think one can treat the two on the same basis. Our department’s policy is that there are, in fact, biological methods of combating them, one of these being the implementation of sound veld-conservation measures. Then one also protects the termites’ natural enemies. Termites flourish in veld that has been denuded. I know that the droughts left the veld very barren and denuded, something which, of course, promoted termite infestation. We cannot, however, treat this in the same way we treat locusts.

The hon member for Schweizer-Reneke apologised for not being here.

He is here.

Oh, there he is. Pardon me. He spoke about politics in agriculture, and I should also like to say something about this. I have been participating in agricultural debates for 23 years now, and it has consistently been the standpoint that as far as is possible in practice we keep politics out of agriculture. All of us sitting here are practical politicians, however, and I therefore do not think it is altogether possible to do so.

I really do not object to the hon member for Lichtenburg, who is the chief spokesman on agriculture on that side, saying that the Government has turned its back on the farmers. I am prepared to debate that issue with him on various platforms, because I can prove that he is not correct.

Let us do so.

Let us call it politics and settle the matter. If there is one thing we must keep out of agriculture, however, it is petty politics. I see the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke agrees with me. What is that? The hon member referred to it. If someone like Oom Jack Nel, apparently a Nationalist, is appointed solely on merit, what is wrong with that?

We are not complaining about him.

It is a question of merit. If we began playing petty politics, however, and started undermining the overall organisational administrative infrastructure of organised agriculture and the co-operatives by loading them with members of a particular party, regardless of their competence, we would devastate agriculture. We have argued about that before, and I think the hon member for Lichtenburg agrees with me that we must guard against this.

You should speak to your Deputy Minister for a change.

You will have ample opportunity to speak to him.

The hon member for Ventersdorp asked me to say something about encroaching vegetation in his area. We have schemes to combat the problem, and there are also subsidies available, because the costs involved in combating it are very high. I think a special herbicide is used. The producers must direct their enquiries to the Financial Assistance Directorate and then, on a certain basis, a scheme can be designed to determine the extent of the encroachment, and if it is serious, I am sure we shall be able to help the hon member.

The hon member for Winburg is a very good co-operative member. We have had dealings with each other on numerous occasions. He had many very kind things to say about my contributions to the co-operative movement. I was weaned on co-operatives in organised agriculture. I think that my ability to handle this portfolio is based on the knowledge I gained in organised agriculture, particularly in the cooperative movement. I am sincerely grateful to this organisation for the privilege of being able to serve such an organisation.

The hon member for Witbank spoke about interest and input costs. I think I have replied to that.

Mr Chairman, my time is up, but I am only asking for one more minute. Yesterday I thanked my two departments and the heads of those two departments. It is, however, my heartfelt wish to extend my sincere thanks to my immediate staff. I think that a Minister’s effectiveness and efficiency in carrying out his task depends to a very large extent on the loyalty and competence of his immediate staff in his Ministry.

I want to express my heartfelt thanks to Messrs Da Silva and Smith. I am also doing so on behalf of my family. Mr Chairman, thank you very much for the privilege of serving this wonderful industry, South African agriculture, and its people for a period of seven years.

Debate concluded.

The Committee rose at 18h16.

Order! Despite the fact that I requested some days ago that hon members be present in the House when their questions are replied to, the hon member for Durban Suburbs is not here. One will have to go into this matter.

Mr Chairman, on 6 April 1989 it was felt that reflections were cast on the majority party of the House. We therefore feel that these allegations should be investigated. I therefore move:

Mr Chairman, the Official Opposition welcomes the fact that this motion is eventually being moved in this House. Hon members will recall that originally the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition raised this question in the Chamber of Parliament. The notice of motion was originally given in this House. We support it.

Mr Chairman, I just want to add that we felt so strongly about this motion that we have given it precedence. May I give the names of hon members of the majority party who are to serve on this committee?

Order! The hon member may do that now. The House has to approve it first, but the hon member may make the announcement now. The hon the Chief Whip may proceed.

Mr Chairman, hon members who are to serve on this committee are as follows: Mr T Abrahams as chairman; as members: Mr L C Abrahams, Mr W J Dietrich, Mr D W N Josephs, Mr D Lockey, and Mr J C Oosthuizen. The Official Opposition will nominate their own members.

Order! We have to add the names before we can vote on the motion, otherwise we shall have to agree to the motion without the names, as I said at the outset. [Interjections.]

†Order! Does the hon member for Daljosaphat intend submitting the names now? This matter should have been decided upon beforehand. I nevertheless think the hon members could come to a mutual agreement and submit the names. I now call upon the hon member to submit the names. The names can be tabled for inclusion in tomorrow’s Minutes.

Mr Chairman, the Official Opposition would like to submit the names of Mr N M Isaacs and Mr J J Swartz.

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, I move without notice:

After the announcement which was made by Mr Heunis in his capacity as Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning two weeks ago, I think most of us were looking forward with enormous interest to his programme for constitutional reform in South Africa. Unfortunately his resignation a few day ago is certainly cause for concern.

We sincerely trust that the reform process—a programme which has been commenced—will go ahead with even greater vigour and that in the not-too-distant future we will have realised a constitutional framework which would be acceptable to all South Africans in this country.

Mr Heunis was initially involved with the Indian community from as far back as 1974 and I would like to place on record some of the matters which were resolved with his assistance under very difficult circumstances in years gone by when we did not have a platform from which to express our concern and feelings.

His contribution towards the retention of Indians across the Tugela including Richard’s Bay, the return of part of Cato Manor, the removal of interprovincial barriers, the lifting of the ban on Indian wives and the Indian Industrial Development Corporation were matters which were realised when he was the Minister of Indian Affairs. I would like to place this on record with appreciation.

Additionally I would also like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the hon member for Houghton, Mrs Helen Suzman, who has announced that she will not be seeking re-election. I believe she is a very distinguished South African personality who has been a sign of hope for the oppressed people of South Africa, and we want to wish her well as she leaves Parliament after many years of service.

Mr Chairman, there is no question whatsoever that Mr Chris Heunis was far in advance of his own party and far in advance of his own people—even the so-called enlightened group amongst his own people. I have had the pleasure of knowing Mr Heunis for something like eight years now, and I do believe that I was able to acquire a decoder. It has been said that the similarity between Chris Heunis and M-Net is that both require decoders.

I was able to understand what the hon the Minister was trying to do. He was trying to lead South Africa away from racial discrimination and I believe he knew that the only way to take South Africa away from racial discrimination was to dismantle apartheid.

Unfortunately one got the impression that he was being held back by his own party and this has emerged in the newspaper comments over the weekend. He was being held back by none other than the present hon Minister of National Education, Mr F W de Klerk. There is no question about it.

It is a tragedy that when we had a South African who really wanted to move this country away from the strife, the stresses and the storms which beset it—into a land where there might not have been absolute amity, where there might not have been absolute peace, but where there certainly would have been harmony and an opportunity for all people regardless of race or colour—his own party let him down.

That resulted in our being obliged to stand up and criticise him regularly, because he was the hon Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning. Although we knew—or we had a strong feeling—that he was being held back by his own party, by the hon the State President and by many of his colleagues in the Cabinet, he had to take the rap, being the hon Minister. He held an uncomfortable position and I am not at all surprised that he decided to relinquish that post.

Why should he, knowing that he wanted to do what was right, and knowing that he was being held back by his own people, be catching it all the time in public?

I was among those who moved that his Budget Vote be rejected and I did so with full consciousness of exactly what I was doing. However, it was not aimed against the man. It was against the office which that man represented. It was against the Government of which that man was, and is, a member.

I would like to take this opportunity of paying tribute to Mr J C Heunis, the honest lawyer, Mr J C Heunis, the true South African who desperately wanted to move this country forward. If Mandela had been released, if Motapeng had been released three years ago, the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning would have had his national council by now. We may be in a much better position than we were… [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, having heard both speakers, the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council and the hon member for Reservoir Hills, I think it is very simple to analyse a person of the calibre of the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning. Take a good man and put him in a bad job, and he becomes a part of the assignment that he has been given. If there was an assignment in this country, it was the assignment of constitutional development towards reform in South Africa.

Within the framework of reform in South Africa it was the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning, if anybody, who played one of the most vital roles in constitutional reform in South Africa. Therefore we must accept this afternoon that not we, but history, will record the contributions made by Mr J C Heunis to South Africa, notwithstanding the limitations with which he had been faced in his own party, to see to it that South Africa moved in the right direction in this particular age.

I want to pay tribute to this great leader of South Africa. Although he might be out of Parliament, I am quite sure his heart and soul will be in this forum and he will be able to guide us from a different direction on the true course that South Africa will have to take. It is my wish that the time will come when that very able leader of South Africa will be back in this forum to assist once again in bringing about reform in the direction in which hon members and I would like to see it.

Mr Chairman, I also want to make a contribution. When one talks about the contribution of a single person, I want to say that it is usually concomitant with teamwork.

†When one flips a coin into the air and it drops, no matter which way it goes, there are two sides to it. One must admit that according to the demands of the times, this particular hon Minister tried to move with the times. However, then again he was also besotted with the ideology of trying to protect groups based on racial lines. To this end, one of the negative sides was the trilogy of Bills which this hon Minister tried to bulldoze through Parliament last year, which one cannot condone or forget about, because had he succeeded in bulldozing them through Parliament, thousands of people of colour would have been on the streets prior to 22 October of last year.

I believe that the hon the Minister tried to do what he could. I think he failed in his mission, because he could not take the ship any further. Unfortunately, to this hon Minister negotiation meant that whatever he put on the table had to be accepted. He was not prepared to accept inputs from the other side. If one looks at the tricameral Constitution one sees that it is the product of one-sided negotiation. The NP’s ideology, the entrenchment of racial entities, is part and parcel of the Constitution.

Any hope one may have that the NP will create another constitution in this country, one acceptable to the overwhelming majority of people in this country, is a pipe dream. I want to tell the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council that I of course grant him the right to congratulate his boss on his departure, but that that does not solve the problems of this country. I, too, wish the hon the Minister well with the new occupation that he will conduct from his armchair in Helderberg. I hope that his successor will move very fast, because otherwise this country will be led into the abyss and all of us will be very sorry that it happened.

Question agreed to.

Mr Chairman, local government is the form of government which is nearest to the people. It is a very important form of government. I am very pleased to note that in the hon the Minister’s report he agrees that the local affairs and management committee system must be done away with. My party made a statement to this effect on 27 November 1988 at a meeting in the Durban City Hall. We said then that those were the last local affairs elections my party would participate in because we believed in direct representation.

Speaking about direct representation, I strongly believe that direct representation should not be compromised. We must have direct representation. I hope the hon the Minister will look at this from that angle.

The local government elections took place on 26 October 1988 and many new people have entered the field of local government. I would like to know from the hon the Minister if he has planned any orientation courses for these people. Are they going to be informed of the various ordinances of the provinces? What is the hon the Minister’s intention in this regard? Will such courses be held under the guidance of the provincial bodies such as Assocom in the Cape, Tampcom in the Transvaal and Nalac in Natal?

We agree with the concept of having a unified set of legislation for local government instead of having different kinds of legislation for different groups. I refer specifically to the 116 different functions which exist according to the Transvaal provincial ordinances, which are delegated to management committees. This delegation must under no circumstances be confused with autonomy. As far as we are concerned any reference to autonomy is like waving a red flag at a bull. Autonomy is totally unacceptable to our community.

I now want to talk about the regional services councils. According to the hon the Minister’s report, they are now going to be functional and operational in Natal. They have been operational in the Cape and the Transvaal. Has the hon the Minister looked at the possibility of voting powers for the different communities serving on the regional services councils? I want to cite an example, namely the Central Witwatersrand Regional Services Council. Here the major local authority, the Johannesburg City Council, has more voting powers and it is therefore able to outvote the smaller communities. Has a method been devised whereby there is equal voting on these regional services councils? If not, what is the hon the Minister going to do about that?

When the Promotion of Local Government Affairs Bill was first introduced in accordance with the improved communications—with which the hon the Minister is familiar, because he has served with me on the national ad hoc committee and the co-ordinating council—why was the concession to sit in the parent local authorities extended to members of local affairs committees and management committees in Natal and the Free State, whereas this concession does not exist as far as the Transvaal and the Cape is concerned? We are disappointed that no headway has been made in this direction and we want the hon the Minister to take note of that.

I want to talk about the incorporation of Lenasia Extensions 8, 9, 10 and 11, as well as Lenasia South in the jurisdiction of the Johannesburg City Council. According to the hon the Minister’s report, the negotiations have reached an advanced stage. We want to know exactly how advanced they are. We know that there is a financial implication and we know that the Johannesburg City Council wants to take over a portion of this area on an agency basis. From a practical viewpoint I am totally opposed to that, because we would just have a repetition of the same situation that we had previously, where they would provide services on an agency basis whereby rates would be increased and they would not incorporate.

However, the problem we have with the incorporation is that it has been going on for the last six or seven years. Every time there is a report on it, we hear that it is reaching its finalisation stage. Nothing has come of it as yet. According to the hon the Minister’s reply, the parties involved are the Johannesburg City Council, the Administration: House of Delegates and the Transvaal Provincial Administration. No mention whatsoever is made of the Transvaal Board for the Development of Peri-urban Areas. This board is also a party to these negotiations. At the moment, although the board in itself has been phased out, the administration of that board still exists and they do administer that area.

The community of Lenasia has a right to know what is going to happen to the two separate management committees after incorporation. We have the Lenasia management committee which falls under the jurisdiction of the Johannesburg City Council, and we have the Lenasia South East management committee under the Peri-urban Board. I had raised this question previously at the joint sitting of the provincial affairs of the Transvaal. The MEC in charge has informed me that there is no ordinance which provides for the amalgamation of two management committees. In his opinion both management committees would have to be dissolved and a fresh election held for one management committee for the entire area, or there would have to be an appointed management committee. I would like the hon the Minister to give me some answers as to what is going to happen. What are his views as far as that is concerned?

A vacancy exists at present in the Lenasia South East management committee by virtue of certain disqualifications in one of the wards there. In terms of the provincial ordinance, a by-election must be held within a prescribed period. To date, no election has been held. A legal opinion was sought from the peri-urban board. I quote from their reply:

That is the legal opinion. I want to know when that election is going to be held so that that vacancy can be filled. Elections were held in various other areas and I do not see why that area should not have its full complement on the management committee.

The hon the Minister’s report on local government makes very interesting reading. There are a number of aspects that I agree with, but I want to concur with him that unless he exerts pressure to unify and bring local government under one ambit, we are not going to make headway.

With regard to parity in the allowances paid to members of the management committee and local affairs committee, the hon the Minister is aware that there have been the Venter Commission and the Griffiths recommendations, and at the moment the Robson Commission report is before the Co-ordinating Council for Local Government Affairs. We have been discussing this continuously for the past six or seven years and certain local authorities seem to be reluctant to institute parity as far as the allowances paid to members of local affairs committees are concerned.

Another important issue that I want to address is the according of the status of alderman to members of the Indian and Coloured communities. I know it has been instituted in the Cape and Assocom has put up a fight for it, but in the Transvaal and Natal that rule does not apply. I do not want to cast a slur upon the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare after 25 years of service, but that rule does not apply there.

In my opinion somebody who has served the community needs to be honoured in some way. Why is it that members of Indian and Coloured management committees, particularly in the Transvaal, do not enjoy some status? Especially when official functions are held with a procession of the mayor and town councillors, it is said that people of the Indian community must be left behind. This is the kind of contempt that people are treated with and in my opinion the hon the Minister needs to investigate and address this matter. We need to address the matter of a uniform system of local government. It must be uniform right through. We cannot have selected items of uniformity. I would like the hon the Minister to respond to me in that regard.

Mr Chairman, I must agree with the hon member for Lenasia Central’s statement that direct representation is the call of the Indian community for all local and regional government structures.

With no compromises.

Without any kind of a compromise. We in the DP not only fully believe that but we try to commend that as much as possible.

Ever since this tricameral constitution was foisted upon the Indian and Coloured communities in 1983 without their active participation in its creation, the implementation of local government and agriculture as own affairs became a huge political fraud perpetuated by the purveyors of apartheid. All those who helped personally to perpetuate this fraudulent state of affairs are likewise guilty, despite all the protestations that they may mouth.

I would like the hon the Minister to listen to those words very carefully because I read his speech very carefully and it seems to me that one cannot reconcile what he says in his speech with the actual activity of the department and his involvement in the department. Therefore I say that it is of no avail for the hon the Minister and the hon the Deputy Minister in this House to unctuously declare that they are completely opposed to the concept of racially organised local authorities and then, as Minister and as Deputy Minister, to administer apartheid vis à vis the local authorities.

At the present time we all know that there are four local authorities under the jurisdiction of the House of Delegates, namely Verulam, Isipingo, Umzinto North and Marburg. Yet we have the anomalous situation that they are for all intents and purposes controlled by the Administrator of Natal and his Executive Committee. Why then is there the need to have not one but two Ministers to have the nominal and figurative status of Ministers of State in respect of this function? Not only is it a colossal waste of taxpayers’ money, but the functioning of this department as I understand it, is undertaken by public servants in any case. If I heard the hon the Minister correctly, he was asking his colleague, the hon the Minister of Agriculture, to second another official to his department. I say that that official could well undertake the functions of that department exactly where he is at the moment.

As I was saying, the whole notion of having a Minister of Agriculture for a total population of 900 000—in many cases this is less than the population of most towns in Europe—is excruciatingly laughable. When one adds to this the fact that the Indian South Africans are a highly urbanised people, this laughter reaches the rafters. [Interjections.]

The total budget of the department, which is run by a Minister, a Deputy Minister and their staff, is the princely amount of R6,3 million. This is what this debate is all about. We have two Ministers who are administering this particular function. Of this amount, the largest item of expenditure is R5,1 million for aid to Indian farmers, which in any case is also handled administratively.

How can the hon the Minister, or for that matter the Ministers’ Council, justify the continuation of this Ministry on the basis of the economic realities? How can both these hon Ministers justify their positions and the attendant costs on the basis of this particular budget?

If this department were run by the private sector or if it were run along ordinary company lines, not only would both hon Ministers be without jobs, but the department would be annexed to a larger department. That larger department would then of course take over the functioning of this little department which has the princely budget of R6,3 million, yet has two Ministers looking after its affairs.

That costs R1,5 million.

It costs a lot more than that, but it gives them status and that is after all what people are interested in.

I therefore call, notwithstanding all our reservations about its purpose and its functioning, for the affairs of this department to be added to either Housing or to Budgetary and Auxiliary Services. This will save much-needed money that can be used for the Indian community.

I listened very attentively when the hon the Minister spoke. He did not say a word about the several commissions of enquiry that we have had in regard to the local governments. I refer in particular to the enquiry that was held into the affairs of Umzinto North and I think there was an enquiry into the affairs of Isipingo as well. [Interjections.] I am not in any way going to refer to what the content of those commissions of enquiry were.

Local authorities are not accountable to the Minister.

The hon member for Isipingo says that those local authorities are not accountable to the hon the Minister and I agree completely. In fact, that hon member is now supporting what I said earlier on, namely that those hon Ministers have no powers.

They have a nominal status which means that jurisdiction for the affairs of those local authorities falls within the purview of their activities. [Interjections.] I was not referring to the control and I was not referring to the content of the reports of those commissions of enquiry.

I expected the hon the Minister, who is trying to defend his administration, to have said something about the shortcomings that were found in each of these local authorities. I do not for a moment blame the people concerned, because it is this apartheid system which has imposed those structures on us.

And they are opposing it.

Several years ago the President’s Council undertook an investigation into local government and regional government structures. It found that before any area was accorded a local authority status several criteria had to be satisfied. One of the most important criteria was the question of viability, followed by the question of the necessary personnel being available.

When we talk about the necessary personnel being available, we are talking about trained people. These commissions of enquiry have highlighted the fact that we do not have those trained people, not only insofar as the actual administration is concerned—I am now talking about the public servants—but also as far as the councillors are concerned.

I would have expected the hon the Minister to have highlighted that and to have told us, in the absence of other work that he may purport to have, that this is something he would wish to propagate in his Ministry. He should have said that he would in fact ensure that people who are involved in those local government structures would be given training in that regard, albeit after having been appointed to this position. What I am saying, is that I would have expected the hon the Minister to have said to us that despite the shortcomings he was now going to ensure that training facilities were provided for these people.

I talked earlier on about the question of determining viability before we in fact create these local structures. In yesterday’s debate there was a lot of discussion about Marburg. We all know that Marburg, Umzinto North and Isipingo are all non-viable local government structures. It is all very well for people to tell us that they are able to balance the books and that therefore, in their estimation, they satisfy the criteria of viability. However, the cry of each of the ratepayers of each of those areas is that those areas are unable to provide the necessary services which are absolutely essential…

Like roads!

Well, the hon member for Isipingo knows a lot about these matters—I expect him to do so—and he cites the example of roads. That is perfectly true. In each of these areas the condition of the roads leaves a lot to be desired. I do not blame the people who run those local authorities. There is simply not enough money in the coffers. Why is there not enough money? Because essentially a residential dormitory situation prevails in each of these areas, which were given local authority status in perpetuation of this apartheid bogey and concept so that the outside world could be told that we now have Indians who are capable and who are running their own affairs. This merely underscores the point that I was making namely that we do not agree with these local government structures simply because they have been conceived from and are executed along strictly ethnic lines and are therefore a perpetuation of apartheid.

The hon member for Isipingo raised the question of trying to ensure that these areas are in fact able to generate more income for instance by the addition or annexation of Prospecton. If one looks at each of these areas, the industrial area from which a large revenue could be generated, in fact falls in the White area.

It is reserved for Whites!

Absolutely! These areas are reserved for Whites. I would have expected the hon the Minister to have made mention of that, and I should like to ask him, now that he has nominal jurisdiction over all these areas, what he intends doing about this. What does he intend doing about trying to increase the rateable areas that comprise these local authorities? What, for instance, does he intend to do about Marburg, which now wishes to have a further area of land next to it—I think it is lot 896. Of course, the hon the Minister looks surprised.

It is lot 396 and it comprises 1 000 square metres.

Well, of course the hon member for Southern Natal knows a lot more about Marburg; he is there! [Interjections.] I readily accept that we are talking about 1 000 square metres, but that is not the point. As I understand the position, the Marburg Town Council has made representations to the province to have a greater land area next to it, and it is that area that I am talking about. I am glad that the hon member agrees with me on that, since I would have been most surprised if he did not. After all, he has an election to fight, and I would like to see him go back and tell the people of Marburg that he does not want to give them a bigger area!

I merely corrected you in respect of the number 896.

I had that wrong, Mr Chairman. I was given this information in the standing committee in Natal, and that was several weeks ago. Obviously I erred.

Finally, I wish to raise one particular issue, namely the question of agriculture, which will be more fully covered by my hon colleague, the hon member for Camperdown, who is not present at the moment. This simple issue concerns the amount of money set aside for compensation to Indian farmers as a result of the floods in 1987.I would like to ask the hon the Minister what amount of money was actually paid out to Indian farmers, as opposed to the total amount of claims lodged by those Indian farmers. If in fact there is a difference, I should like to ask the hon the Minister what the reasons were for the withholding of payment to those Indian farmers.

Mr Chairman, I have looked at the hon the Minister’s report and I note from the report that he speaks in glowing terms of the fact that solutions will have to be found outside the realms of apartheid in respect of a constitutional model which includes the third tier of government.

At the outset I want to say that as far as a new model is concerned, the hon the Minister said here that we are at present negotiating a new constitution for South Africa. Now, I do not know where these negotiations are taking place. If the hon the Minister has some superior knowledge, I think he should tell us about it, since I know of no serious or hard negotiations taking place at the moment.

Whatever a new model may bring about, however, I think that if one looks at the methodology of negotiations initiated by the NP Government, then of course those negotiations with regard to local government will again embody the group concept. That the hon the Minister can be very sure of.

Moreover I think the hon the Minister has given us all the reasons in his speech as to why that particular Ministry should be dispensed with.

Firstly the hon the Minister is the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture without any powers whatsoever. The only powers the hon the Minister apparently has from time to time is to appoint some members to some local affairs or management committees. I understand that there is a vacancy in the Lenasia South East Management Committee and the hon the Minister has apparently told somebody that he would be appointing someone who belongs to his party to it.

That is about the only power he has and he will of course have to create jobs for friends and look after members of his own party. Hon members know that the carrot culture is very much alive and the hon the Minister is responsible for agriculture as well. I hope he provides sufficient plots in Lenasia so that sufficient carrots can be planted there.

When one looks at his entire report the hon the Minister has made a case for that particular ministry to be disbanded immediately. I believe that the hon the Minister knows full well that he has very little power in respect of agriculture—practically no power whatsoever. I am given to understand that the so-called Agricultural Credit Board was not even statutorily created.

The hon the Minister should therefore be the first to take the lead and stand by the statements he made in his speech yesterday; by being the first Minister to say: To hell with the separate local government structures; to say that he is not prepared to carry out that function and that he is resigning. As the hon member for Springfield pointed out, the hon the Minister’s function at the moment and the post he is occupying at the moment, is merely window dressing.

However, if I read this in conjunction with a story I read on the back page of the Sunday Times Extra some time ago, the hon the Minister was complaining about the fact that having lost the ministership two years ago had brought him some financial problems. I do of course hope that those problems have now been solved because the hon the Minister is now a Minister and he now enjoys the perks and privileges he had temporarily lost.

If that is the only reason for clinging to a Ministry with no power, then I want to tell the hon the Minister that he owes it to all right-thinking South Africans to be the first Minister to say that this department is a useless department—it is not even a department because I do not even know who the Director of Local Government is—because he has no power to implement anything. Therefore the hon the Minister should be the first one to step aside and say: “Goodbye, I am going.”

The planning of a constitution in this country was gone about in completely the wrong way. One does not start structures at the top and work downwards. The current hon Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning is on record as having said on umpteen occasions that only gravediggers start at the top and work downwards. I do not know whose grave has been dug and I do not know who is going to lie in that grave now.

However, the local government level is the level where one is intimately involved with the affairs of the people, with the real nitty-gritty and the real day-to-day requirements of people. Yours truly is of course no fool and I was asked by the hon the Minister last year why I made myself available for election to the local government body. I want to tell the hon the Minister that I did it precisely so that I could be involved with the problems of the people at grassroots level. It is at that level that I will be able to stop his hon colleague from implementing market-related rentals on the poor flat dwellers in the municipal flats which were funded by the National Housing Fund in the past. It is at that level that I will be able to block any talk of the devolution of power.

The hon the Minister must tell this House whether or not he was responsible for getting involved with the hon Minister concerned with regard to the whole issue of devolution of power, and whether he at that stage did or did not approve the whole issue of the devolution of power to local management and local affairs committees.

I believe that reform will now have to take a new turn in this country. I do not know what to expect in the months that lie ahead, but I notice that the announcement of the new hon Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning could perhaps, to a certain extent, bring us some hope. I would like to point out to hon members what the hon the Administrator of the Cape, Mr Eugene Louw, had to say. I quote:

This refers to the division of own affairs and general affairs. I continue:

If this hon Administrator of the Cape, the new incumbent in this post, carries out what he believes in, I hope there will be a new dimension to local government in this country.

In the part of the world I come from…

But he failed all these years.

Well, that is our problem in this country. Somebody once said the leopard does not change his spots. I am one of those. I am a leopard that never changes its spots. I remain what I am: A predator.

I do not know whether the hon the Administrator will live up to the requirements of the time. What does the present day and age demand of him and of all other people who are involved in helping to implement apartheid? I want to make it very clear that as long as the newly-appointed hon Minister remains in that position, he is giving credence to the policy enunciated by the NP, namely the policy of separate local authorities. He has been placed there by the Government which hopes that he will be able to convince his people to accept autonomy at local level and thereby give credence to his position as a Minister. Therefore, is the hon the Administrator going to carry out his mission and still believe in what he said on 19 April 1989—only about a month ago? I of course believe we might be in for drastic changes with respect to local government.

I want to welcome him as a Minister, although I dislike the NP’s policy. I dislike it even more now, because in my home town seven DP-related councillors voted for the opening of the local library to people of all race groups and NP councillors teamed up with five CP councillors to oppose the opening of that library. So much for the double standards that they display in criticising the municipalities of Boksburg and Carletonville which are carrying out NP policy to the letter. That is why I have my doubts that this newly-appointed Minister will still stand by what he said on 19 April 1989.

At local government level, if local government is organised on the basis of municipal wards, irrespective of the colour of the people who live in those wards, we will have a system where a degree of trust will start developing between people. However, I think that to turn around and say that we are prepared to compromise as far as local government goes by accepting racially segregated wards and accepting a certain number of “non-White people” on the local authority, is courting disaster.

The majority of us on this side of the House believe that direct representation is not negotiable. If it so happens that a municipal ward, by a sheer twist of fate, has only people of a particular skin colour registered as voters in that ward, we accept that. However, we are not prepared to accept an arrangement whereby we say: Give us so many so-called non-White councillors in the municipality and the balance can be White. This is totally non-negotiable.

My experience has shown that in local government, because of the tremendous shortage of land in our communities, an equivalent piece of land is naturally sold at much lower prices in a White area. When the triennial valuation of properties takes place with a view to determining rates, what invariably happens is that a search is made in the Deeds Office, and they look at the value of properties sold in those particular suburbs. Of course, properties in so-called Indian suburbs are sold at grossly inflated prices. What is the net result of this? Our properties are valued much higher and we pay much more in rates. What do we get in return? A pittance!

I may add that many local authorities keep separate accounts. In the case of my home town a separate account is kept for the so-called Indian areas, and whatever revenue is generated in the Indian areas goes into that account. However, the CBD of Benoni, one of the first in the country where the entire CBD has been opened to all races, generates income as a result of the involvement of business of all sectors of the population. Today our people own property and run businesses there. There are Black entrepreneurs there as well as customers to make those businesses run. The income derived from the CBDs is income that belongs to everybody who lives in that particular region. However, when it comes to the creation of facilities, there is always the bias in favour of creating facilities for Whites only. Then those facilities are reserved for the use of Whites only as well.

I further want to say about local government that in the October election the system of prior voting was in use. I submit that if this system is to continue, then the period for prior voting is to my mind very lengthy. It really takes a lot out of people and there is the infrastructure that one has to provide. In my area in the Transvaal we did it all within a week. Within a week it was all done. [Time expired.]

Order! Before calling upon the next hon member to speak, I wish to appeal to hon members to note that it is unparliamentary to impute improper or unworthy motives to any hon member and thus to reflect upon his honour. Depending on the context and the circumstances in which the word “carrots” is used, it can be considered so to reflect upon an hon member’s honour and therefore to be unparliamentary. I appeal to hon members to refrain from using expressions which tend to lower the tone of debate. I hope hon members will honour this ruling.

Mr Chairman, would it be in order to say that at lunchtime yesterday I saw that hon member eating carrots?

Order! It should be considered in context, according to my ruling.

Mr Chairman, I want to start by responding to some of the things that were said by previous speakers. I agree with the submissions of the hon member Mr Abram with regard to direct representation.

However, I find it rather contradictory when he says that direct representation is not negotiable. I agree with that, but then how was it negotiable for that hon member to stand for a management committee election in 1988? That is far more inferior to direct representation and yet the hon member says that it is not correct for us to suggest as an interim measure to have persons representative of their group areas in wards within a local authority. To me, being a member of the LAC is far more inferior than a member who is elected from a group area to serve directly on a council with full voting rights. To me that is more significant.

I want to appeal to hon members not to play games. I would like all hon members to participate in a constructive debate and to give direction which will assist us in this dilemma in which we find ourselves. I also find it strange that hon members now say that the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture does not have much work to do. Was it not the previous Chairman of the Ministers’ Council who split that Ministry? I agree that Local Government, Housing and Agriculture ought to have been one Ministry within the context of the tricameral system. I have no difficulty with that submission.

However, I am saying that at that time hon members saw fit to sit with the man who was directly responsible for splitting that Ministry. They did not criticise or attack him. They now want to attack the man who has just inherited that which somebody else created! If that is the submission which they are making, I suggest that the Ministers’ Council should think seriously about linking up the Ministry of Local Government and Agriculture and the Ministry of Housing. I have no quarrel with that, but hon members should not blame people who have not been responsible for that division.

I am in agreement with the statement that we do not agree with the concept of own affairs. I think there is merit in that. I agree that we do not need own affairs. I agree that this is not the ultimate in our political struggle. I agree with that. I believe that we should have direct representation. I believe that we should have a non-racial society in South Africa. I believe that local government should be a non-racial authority. I believe that I share that belief with everybody. However, I want to say quite categorically that I have differed with the previous Minister of Local Government and Agriculture on many issues. I do not dispute that. However, it must also be acknowledged that at the time of the floods, when there was work to be done, he was in my area. We had many meetings together. We discussed many things together with a view to assisting people who were affected by the floods.

I want to say to the previous Minister that I appreciated this.

At least you have a heart!

No, facts are facts. At the same time, however, I want to congratulate the present hon Minister. The unceremonious manner in which the previous Chairman of the Ministers’ Council had treated him was unfortunate. I am glad that he has the opportunity today of presenting his budget. He should have had this opportunity before, but he was denied the opportunity to function effectively as Minister of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture—as suggested by hon members of the Official Opposition and the then Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. I trust that the Ministers’ Council will look at this particular aspect. I think this is a positive contribution from the other side.

I now want to come to the hon member for Lenasia.

Lenasia what?

Lenasia Central. I want to say to the hon member that I had the good fortune to be on a TV debate with him prior to the 1988 municipal elections in October. Yesterday I was a bit surprised when he complained about housing. In my debating encounter with him, he mentioned that there was an abundant supply of housing in the Transvaal! I do not know what the complaints are from the Transvaal at the moment.

You are short-changing us!

Of course, this was said in promotion of the then Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. This was said not so long ago—in fact, just a few months ago. What has happened during the last two or three months? What has suddenly happened to this abundance? I am not aware of any overnight migration to the Transvaal that has caused this shortage.

I know that there is a shortage of housing in the Transvaal. It seems that some of us have a lack of understanding and comprehension. Here I wish to make reference to the 106 delegated powers. The same hon member who misunderstood the issue of housing in the Transvaal, now misunderstands the question of 106 delegated powers in terms of the ordinances.

These 106 delegated powers are indeed a route towards self-determination on an ethnic and group basis. I want that hon member to understand that. As much as he tried to indicate even during that television debate that I did not understand what this meant, I suggest to him, with respect, that he go and study this and examine the implications of accepting the 106 delegated powers. I have very strong views about this.

In keeping with the hon the Minister’s speech I want to re-state for record purposes what Solidarity stands for. My party believes that local government franchise in South Africa must be extended to all burgesses of local authorities, regardless of race.

Existing legislation prohibiting people of colour from being elected or voting in existing local authorities must be removed and all citizens, regardless of race, must be placed on a common voters’ roll. To achieve the ideal of non-racial local authorities, my party is prepared, as an interim measure, to suggest that people of colour be granted direct representation on existing local authorities on a multiracial basis.

My party is opposed to the ideological fragmentation of existing local authorities along racial lines. My party supports the concept of rationalisation of regional services and the amalgamation of non-viable local authorities into larger viable units on a non-racial basis.

My party is also of the view that it is imperative that a stable local government system be established, permitting interaction between people of colour. Only a stable local government system will ensure a stable South Africa.

I must also acknowledge that the hon member Mr Abram made some positive comments too. One positive comment that he made that I agree with is that there has to be reform at grassroots level. There has to be interaction between people at grassroots level. If there is interaction at grassroots level between all people, we shall find that the situation in South Africa is much more stable.

I do not want to respond to the accusations of carrot-dangling that hon members make from time to time. Those hon members who want to indulge in that type of nonsense can continue to do so.

Another matter that I want to deal with is that in the recent past there was talk about regional services coming to Natal. I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to use the opportunity in his discussions with the own affairs Ministers to ensure that structures are not created in any region against the wishes of the majority of the people of that region. In this regard I want to quote from an editorial under the headline “Recipe for failure” in the Sunday Tribune of last week:

My appeal to the hon the Minister is that we might get involved and dragged into the situation of establishing RSCs excluding the KwaZulu area. I believe that for the establishment of RSCs, in as much as we opposed the measure before, one needs to have an area which is geographically intact. One cannot have the exclusion of KwaZulu. The whole concept of rationalisation will be undermined if we are going to have exclusions. Therefore it is imperative that a solution be found in harmony with KwaZulu with regard to the rationalisation of RSCs.

In my opinion the concept of own affairs is not desirable as far as local government is concerned. I want to appeal to the hon the Minister once again that in his discussions with the Ministers from the other Houses he should make it clearly known that it is not desirable for Houses to pass legislation on their own. A classic example has been the recent Bill No 61 of 1989.

Considering the Bill itself, it is evident to me that here the Minister of Own Affairs has seen fit to have rural councils—again on ethnic bases—established in the different provinces. This will undermine our objective. I believe the hon the Minister has a challenge here. I will offer him all my assistance and I invite everybody else to assist him. Let us push him in the direction that we desire—not for his or our sake, but for the sake of the people whom we represent here.

I believe that character attacks and assassinations are no solution unless others want the hon the Minister’s job, and by attacking him they want him to bite the carrots of which they now complain.

“Carrots” is unparliamentary! [Interjections.]

I want to come to another aspect concerning the hon the Minister and say that in terms of the Government’s current legislation and policies it is absurd that in the town from which I come there is a total number of only 500 White voters of whom only 50% would vote. This means that a person who received only 25 votes could become the councillor. On the other hand, the Indians in Stanger are a much stronger group numerically and from an economic point of view, yet they are still run by the minority migrant White community in Stanger.

I believe that this message must be told clearly to the Government. To me it is absurd, inconceivable and unthinkable that this migrant minority imposes its will on the people. The legislation allows this, but I do not think that any person with any sense of morality can allow this to continue any longer. [Interjections.] I would like the hon the Minister to address this particular problem.

The hon member for Springfield says there is no justification for separate Ministries and I believe he is right. We must have one non-racial structure or one non-racial Ministry. However, it is not right to attack just this hon Minister’s position—the whole concept is wrong. Even this Chamber is a product of this kind of suppression but our participation is intended to dismantle this. The participation at that level should therefore continue so that we can achieve our desired objective. That should be the logical argument. To refer just to one aspect of it is to me just playing a game. We must admit the reasons for our own participation too.

The hon member for Lenasia West mentioned that he had difficulties and wanted legislation regarding the amalgamation of management committees. I think that is also absurd. I am not interested in amalgamating management committees. The next logical step for management committees is probably a multiracial council and then a non-racial authority. That is what we must be interested in.

I would like to see the Natal Municipal Association, the Transvaal Municipal Association and the Cape Municipal Association invite all management committees and local affairs committees as fully-fledged members to their organisations, if they mean well. There is nothing in the legislation that prevents them from having them as members—it is only their attitude.

I find that many Whites speak with forked tongues. They say one thing from a liberal point of view, yet when it comes to the reality, they are not prepared to do what is necessary. I speak from experience. When I wanted to push the issue that the Natal Municipal Association should open its doors to the local affairs committees, it did this most grudgingly. It did so only if the parent local authority nominated a LAC member to the NMA conferences. The LAC itself could not directly become a member of the NMA. To me that kind of pink liberalism does not support the liberation struggle in South Africa.

Mr Chairman, I would like to thank the previous Minister who did so much for agriculture. [Interjections.] I know that he did a lot from the time that he took over and I want to thank him for that.

Then you stabbed him in the back!

He came out to Marburg and he went to many places where the agricultural sector of the Indian community was suffering land shortage problems as well as the damages caused by the floods. He definitely did his work.

The hon member for Lenasia Central said that the Natal LAC members were represented on the council and asked why the Transvaal members were not represented. I do not know if he would really want that, because in Natal they only have observer status. I heard him say that he wants representation on a non-racial basis. If that is what he is aiming at I do not think he should be looking at the alternative which is simply a matter of observer status.

The question of agricultural land is something that this Ministry will have to look into because there is a lot of agricultural land in the White sector which is not being used. It is owned by elderly people who cannot use that land.

It is reserved for Whites!

The owners are prepared to either lease or sell it to non-Whites. However, the law of the land prohibits that. I think that if the land cannot be used by the owners and it is made available, there should be nothing prohibiting the use thereof.

We always said that the production of food for the use of the people in the country should not be based on racial lines. I shall be pleased if the hon the Minister will take up this matter, because it is no use having a Minister of Agriculture if we do not have the land on which to practise agriculture. I think many of our people are keen to go back into agriculture, provided they can find the land and the support from the Ministry.

It is no secret that the White agriculturists get a lot of assistance. In this debate I would again like to mention the question of the R300 million which was allocated to general affairs and the hon the Minister of Agriculture who wears two hats—he is supposed to be a Minister of Agriculture for general affairs, but he is also the hon the Minister of Agriculture and Water Supply for own affairs.

From what I understand, all the funds are kept in one account. When we questioned the hon the Minister of Finance about the R300 million he said that that was for general affairs to assist all farmers, irrespective of their race or colour.

How many Indian farmers did they help?

When the hon the Minister went to enquire about that amount from the general affairs Minister of Agriculture he said that the amount had been allocated to own affairs agriculture. However the hon the Minister of Finance had said it was for general affairs to help all farmers who had been affected in that natural disaster. The general affairs Minister of Agriculture said that it was to be used for own affairs.

We went back to the hon the Minister of Finance who said that only R32 million had been used for own affairs and the rest was still available. Up to today we have not received a proper answer from them, they are just ducking and diving. Both the hon Ministers are being questioned but nobody wants to give us the proper answer. [Interjections.] I want to implore our hon Minister to go into that matter, because when I questioned the hon the Minister of Finance in the presence of our hon Minister of the Budget he admitted that. However, we have not received any clear-cut answer on the matter and we need some funds to assist our farmers and market gardeners.

That is the double-faced policy of apartheid!

Yes. Coming to the agricultural markets and so on, I read with interest the hon the Minister’s presentation that the intolerable situation at the Durban market is being attended to. Being a marketing man in the past, I appreciate that because I know the people trading at the Clairwood market are really suffering.

Down at the coast we had a fresh produce market for many years. Now that the coast has become such a busy place, with industries and agricultural activities and a lot of tourists, we need a market in the Port Shepstone-Marburg area. I would be very pleased if the hon the Minister could set up some sort of investigation and have meetings with the local authorities of that area to see if we can establish a market there.

It is too far for the market gardeners to take their produce to Durban and the coast is noted for its fruit and vegetables, but there is no place where these farmers can sell their wares although there had been a very active market in Port Shepstone for many years. The town has now grown big and the whole area is developed but we still have no market.

I would very much like the hon the Minister to help us in this regard and to get an investigation going. Interested parties should make some contributions so that we can have a market over there. I can assure hon members of this House that it is very necessary to have a market in that part of the country, because it is far from the Durban market and many people cannot take their wares over there.

Within the constraint of time that I have, I want to touch on the subject of local government. I agree with a lot of hon members that local government is not something that should be along ethnic lines, because historically, every town in Natal and in the Transvaal grew up because of the contributions of all the people, irrespective of their colour. No town became a one-horse town developed by the White man alone; all the people developed those towns. However, when the town is fully developed, then to cut off the people from the mainstream and say: “You go and live there and run your own affairs”, is totally unacceptable. Times are changing and I think we must now attack this whole issue head-on.

As the hon member Mr Abram said—I do not always agree with him, but this is true—if by chance an area geographically has more people of a specific colour, and if it is therefore represented directly on the council, then that is acceptable, provided it is not based on ethnic or colour lines.

I want to come back to our own situation in Marburg, which we spoke about at length yesterday. When the Act providing for payment of members serving on local affairs and local authorities was passed in Parliament, we had some very interesting things happening in Marburg. Mr Peter Govender who was a total NIC member and chairman of the NIC of the South Coast, suddenly became interested in standing for the Marburg Town Board. After the Act was passed he came to my home and discussed it with me. He asked if it were true that members of the board were now going to get paid. I said, “Yes, the law has been passed and they will get paid.”

At that meeting, and subsequently too, I told him that for five years I had served on the LAC without pay, and then for nine years on the local authority known as the Marburg Town Board, also without pay. This also went for the others, including the late Mr V M Chetty and many others that I can name.

[Inaudible.]

We all served free. However, this member became very interested because there was going to be a lot of money in this. He was so enthusiastic that he stood and won the election, and became chairman of the board.

Did he investigate the R40 000?

The interesting thing is that the first thing he did was to instruct the acting town clerk to institute savings in such a way…

Did he investigate the fraud involving R40 000?

No. You see, he is not one of those who steals trust account cheques.

[Inaudible.]

Why don’t you shut up and listen!

[Inaudible.]

The hon member is trying to drown my speech.

Have you paid the R40 000?

He instructed the town clerk to institute savings from roads and gardens. [Interjections.] All these savings came to R63 000. About a month ago he took that R63 000 as motivation and went to Mr Peter Miller, MEC for Natal, and told him: “Sir, I now want you to approve this to pay my wages.” [Interjections.] This is true; it is proven. He wanted it to be approved to pay his wages as chairman of the town board from October, since he had not been paid. Of course nobody got paid in Marburg; he is not the first one!

Mr Peter Miller told him: “You are saving ratepayers’ money from roads, gardens, footpaths and so on, and you are supposed to represent that community of Marburg, but you come here to take R63 000 of their money? Get out of my office!” That is what he told him, and more people will be telling him to get out of their offices because already a total vote of no confidence in that member as chairman of the Marburg Town Board has been passed. He in fact associates with the hon member for Reservoir Hills and the hon member for Springfield.

[Inaudible.]

In fact, they are proposing him as a DP candidate in the Southern Natal area. I want that man to stand; I would be elated. Please do not withdraw him; I want him!

Did your company pay that R40 000? Yes or no?

I say to that hon member that should he come and address a gathering there, he would be most welcome.

Answer the question. Have you paid the R40 000—yes or no?

There is no R40 000 to be paid.

Oh, I see.

As I said yesterday, go to court or go to hell; that includes that hon member.

Order! The hon member will withdraw the phrase “go to hell”.

I withdraw it, Sir. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, since the purview of the Ministry of Local Government also includes land affairs, I want to make a special appeal to the hon the Minister. A new challenge faces the housing ministry and the local government, in that land is required for the thousands of sugar workers on the coastal belt of Natal.

Generations of Indian labourers have contributed to make the sugar industry what it is and to put it on the industrial map of South Africa. Ironically these very workers are evicted from the sugar company’s premises on retirement. Recently 25 families were evicted from the cottages in Burnside. They had nowhere to go. Their employer had forgotten their honest labour and in the twilight of their lives, like a discarded machine, they were consigned to the scrap heap of humanity—hopeless, shelterless—to die in misery.

Thousands of sugar workers face the same uncertain prospect right from Port Shepstone in the south to Richard’s Bay where the previous hon Minister’s constituency is. All these people face an uncertain prospect because on retirement they have nowhere to go. Their employers have forgotten them.

Although I admit that no employer is under any obligation to provide housing for his employees, the sugar industry is unique in that the workers are housed on the employer’s premises and this has been going on for generations. Today we face the challenge of finding homes for these unfortunate people.

How are we to address this problem? I think it should be on a tripartite basis. Firstly the local government, the sugar industry and the housing ministry must get together so that ways and means can be found to find accommodation for these unfortunate people.

I wish to dwell on the housing needs of Campbell’s Town. Here there are about 1 000 employees living on Hulett’s property and they too face this sense of uncertainty because on retirement or on disability they must vacate the accommodation. Where are these people to go? Unless we find an answer to their problem, the insecurity will prevail.

I will now appeal to the hon the Minister to negotiate with the sugar industry because there are thousands of hectares of land that could readily be made available for Indian housing. They will after all be paying tribute to Indian labour and Indian efforts which put the sugar industry on the map. Unless and until timeous steps are taken, we will find places like Burnside or Blackburn where there is the problem of finding housing for these sugar employees.

Last year when I addressed this House, the then Minister of Housing assured me that there was something in the pipeline for the extension of Phoenix to the east of Mount Edgecombe. Whether this was on paper or on television I cannot say, but I ask the hon the Minister to conduct the necessary investigations so that land can be found to house these people.

Lastly, Phoenix has almost reached its peak. There is no more room for expansion in Phoenix and the only alternative for Phoenix is to find alternative land, because it is becoming overcrowded. We need more accommodation, and more accommodation means more land. I appeal to the hon the Minister of Housing to look into this matter as a matter of urgency.

Mr Chairman, I would like to start by also complimenting the previous hon Minister for the work he has done, particularly in the Tongaat area.

I have very limited time, so I will confine my speech to the Tongaat area, and particularly to the municipal elections in Tongaat. I think everybody is aware that on 26 October of last year all municipalities held municipal elections except Tongaat, because Tongaat has a special dispensation. It has a multiracial nominated body.

Of course, a few months later, the town clerk decided to hold mock elections in Tongaat, where members of the community were going to be elected and would then be nominated by the hon the Administrator. This of course did not happen, because the manner in which this election was to be carried out was not to the satisfaction of the community.

There are quite a number of factors, but I am just going to highlight one of the things and this is the question of the voters’ roll. There was no voters’ roll as such, but a list of the owners or occupiers of the rateable property would be compiled. Owners of properties were allocated one vote each. Where the premises were not occupied by the owners a vote was allocated to each tenant. One other person was to be appointed to vote. In others words, if 20 to 25 people lived in a building, only one vote was allowed for that home. This has never been heard of in the past.

We made representations, through the good offices of the then hon Minister of Local Government and Agriculture, to the hon the Administrator. We held a meeting and the problems were resolved to a certain degree, but still not to the satisfaction of the community. We are now having a municipal election tomorrow.

Up to the last moment the people are still not happy. The hon the Minister will agree with me that up to a few days ago he was having problems with one of the candidates with regard to the juristic vote.

I would say that Tongaat has, since the 1930s, enjoyed a very good relationship with all the communities in the area—Whites, Blacks and Indians. Although it enjoys multiracial status, this is superficial. Beneath that are many problems. I just want to highlight one or two of those problems. I have a list of problems from the community, addressed to me. I do not have much time, but I am just going to talk about the actual powers that are vested in the local authority there, and the town clerk in particular. I am of the view that extra powers are under no circumstances to be vested in any town clerk, because they seem to run the town for themselves.

Here I can mention the question of the health inspectors in Tongaat. These are qualified health inspectors who have been working on the local authority for years. However, their salaries are not on a par with those of their counterparts in the neighbouring towns of Verulam and Stanger. This has become a very big issue. They have reported the matter to me and made representations to me, and I have subsequently taken this particular matter up with our own affairs hon Minister of Health Services and Welfare. Unfortunately he could not help me.

Although the subsidy is received from the national welfare department, our health inspectors are not being paid an equal salary. What is questionable here is that various heads of departments, as well as the town clerk, are all Whites. Their salaries are on a par with those of their counterparts in other departments. This is blatant discrimination. In only one department, where the heads are Indians, they are not being paid equally.

We have also had another problem with regard to the traffic officers in Tongaat. I drew up a memorandum which has been submitted to the local authorities. One of the chief traffic officers insulted the Indian traffic officers. As a result, the town board took a decision that an enquiry should be held. This decision was taken while the town clerk was on leave. What happened is that when the town clerk came back on duty, he decided not to hold the enquiry, but instead the complainant became the accused and was asked to either resign or be dismissed.

To date no enquiry has taken place and the whole matter has been hushed up. I just want to refer to a member of the board who at one time circulated a certain resolution. I want to quote a few extracts. One concerns the appointment of the assistant superintendent of that traffic department. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, having heard the budget speech on Local Government and Agriculture, I am duty-bound to compliment the hon the Minister as well as the former hon Minister for I think he also played a very significant role in the past. I can only do so on certain issues, and not in toto, particularly not with regard to Indian farmers and their plight. I believe their plight has not been alleviated to the extent that I deem fit. I do not know whether the present hon Minister is aware of certain impediments faced by Indian farmers.

Indian farmers are deprived of one basic right which they desire, and that is to be members of White co-operatives. The White co-operatives are predominantly controlled by Whites. There are certain restrictive conditions that prevent Indians from becoming members of these cooperatives.

Will the hon member take a question?

I have very limited time at my disposal and I would like to complete my speech.

Do your homework! I am a member of a co-operative.

There are farmers in Northern Natal who have brought to my notice their difficulty as regards becoming members of co-operatives in that area. I think this is an important issue, which the hon the Minister has to look into. Members of co-operatives are given certain extra privileges in regard to the purchase of fertilizers and farming implements. This is beneficial to the farmer on the whole.

The White Government is to blame for the present situation. They play an important role in assisting farmers with subsidies and other benefits. They should tell the members of these co-operatives to open their doors to all Indian farmers in places where there are restrictions. In this way we will be able to encourage the Indian farmers. This will result in great enthusiasm amongst them, and we will achieve much better productivity.

The hon the Minister of Agriculture also mentioned vacancies that now exist in the department.

Order! I appeal to hon members to converse more quietly as the hon member is speaking and he cannot be heard.

Mr Chairman, I think the Ministry of Agriculture has been very backward in that they did not show foresight. I say so because in the budget speech a vacancy for an assistant director of the department is mentioned. I would like to know whether there are any suitable Indians who are qualified in this field who could fill this vacancy.

I notice further that leave for full-time study for a Bachelor of Science degree had been granted to a technician. This commenced on 1 February 1989. If this had been looked at some five years ago, we would probably today have had the very person capable of filling this position that has now become vacant. I do not know if the post was advertised.

Furthermore, we see that a new post that has been created for a director of agriculture. There is an on-going need for vacancies, and I call on the hon the Minister to look into these issues, and also to consider prospective candidates. They should be trained now so that when the need arises we will not have to search for qualified Indians in particular. We have also been part and parcel of the farming industry. We would like to encourage as many Indians in farming as possible.

With these words I once again compliment the new hon Minister of Local Government and Agriculture. I think he has done a splendid piece of work for which he should receive all the credit.

Mr Chairman, I would not say that the hon the Minister has no work to do. I would say, however, that he has very little work to do. I do not deny him that, of course. He is a good man and I agree that he was very badly dealt with by the previous Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. However, it is the system which is wrong. Even in agriculture the hon the Minister is not able to tell us how many agronomists, if any, are employed by his department. We do not know anything about field workers, people who go and help farmers in their actual day-to-day activities. We do not know, because the report does not contain that information.

However, what the report does contain, is information that the La Mercy Airport has already been leased out to other people. Now that shocks me, because a demand for land at La Mercy Airport to be made available as smallholdings for market gardeners was made in this House in 1985. We need to know when the hon the Minister of Agriculture leased it out to other people. Did he do that in order to pre-empt the claims made by the Administration: House of Delegates?

In Tongaat we have a so-called multiracial local authority which is not democratically elected. It must remain democratic, as all local authorities must be made democratic on a strictly multiracial basis. That should also have been highlighted by the hon the Minister—not just in passing reference, but strongly. The hon the Minister should have made strong representations to the Administration and to the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning on this issue.

I want to deal with the Marburg matter, because the hon the Minister and the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council are directly and personally involved in the matter.

When I spoke about this last week, I said that I was sure they would want to protect their reputation and that they would therefore take the necessary steps to see to it that the company of which they were shareholders—which should have paid R40 000 to the Marburg Town Board in 1970—would, in fact, pay that money together with the interest at the prime bank rate and at a compound rate of interest. My information is that the money has never been paid. That company called KGVK Investments did not pay that money, notwithstanding the personal signatures of the hon member for Southern Natal and someone else which would have guaranteed that the money would be paid in return for services rendered to that company by the townboard at the ratepayers’ expense.

That money should have been paid, not only by the hon member for Southern Natal who is sitting diagonally opposite me, not only by the directors of that company, but by every single shareholder, including the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council and the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture. They made a direct personal profit. Ratepayers’ money went into their private pockets. There is no question about that.

I said earlier that they failed to pay. Here a local authority is involved, and yet the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council and the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture have not taken the necessary steps since last week. I find this sad, indeed. However, because the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture is the responsible Minister, I find this shocking. One of his colleagues who is sitting next to him, is apparently relying on extinctive prescription to say that money is not payable. I invite the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture to inform this House when that money was paid, by whom it was paid, to whom it was paid and in what manner it was paid. I hope it was not paid to some private individual.

The hon member for Southern Natal was, in fact, the chairman of that town board when all this—if I may use the word—“verneukery” occurred. He was the chairman when this robbery of ratepayers’ money occurred. That is a matter of which every hon member of this House ought to be ashamed, because as yet it has not been put right. I want to repeat that monies belonging to the ratepayers went into the private pockets of the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council and the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture as shareholders of that company, and into the pocket of the hon member for Southern Natal as a director of that company.

We always talk about clean administration. This is not clean administration insofar as the activities of that company were concerned. That company, KGVK Investments, was involved in dirty administration. That company robbed the ratepayers. That company stole from the ratepayers. These three hon members of Parliament had the opportunity of clearing their names. They have not yet done so and they may not escape responsibility for it.

The amount for which they are liable is almost R100 000. That amount of R40 000,00 plus interest compounded at bank rates comes to nearly R100 000. These three people and their confrères who are the shareholders in that company are thieves and robbers and will remain so until they pay that money back. [Interjections.] I want to make that perfectly clear. It will be all right once they have paid it back.

Order! The hon member may not call other hon members of this House thieves and robbers. He must withdraw that.

Mr Chairman, I am bound by your ruling. I withdraw the remark insofar as it concerns any hon member of this House but I want to say that every single shareholder of KGVK… [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I want to congratulate the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture on his fine report and forthright statements about the present constitution. These statements projected Solidarity’s feelings, views and policy. I expressed the view some time ago that the tricameral system was a passing phase. I agree with the hon the Minister when he says that “the tricameral system could never be the answer for providing lasting solutions for a peaceful and unified South Africa”. I also reject the concept of Parliament being divided into separate Houses on the basis of colour.

I agree that the local affairs and management committee system must be done away with. I merely want to state the constituents of Merebank’s attitude in this respect. The people of Merebank have been agitating without any avail for direct representation in the Durban City Council for more than 25 years. The Durban City Council with its so-called progressive thinking has been very unkind to the South African Indian. We are citizens of Durban and, in fact, outnumber the Whites and yet we cannot get decent representation on the council.

I must also mention that the Durban City Council has been shielding behind the Government and has been enforcing the Group Areas Act. They have herded almost all the people from the city of Durban and virtually shoved them into Chatsworth. What was their design? I have a suspicion about that. Thereafter attempts were made to grant Chatsworth autonomy. That was a very selfish attempt aimed at leaving these people to sink or swim with their own problems. If an epidemic were to break out among that high-density population they would all be destroyed.

I speak with a certain amount of conviction in this case, but fortunately the Indian people will keep on trying wherever one puts them. I was the chairman of the Southern Durban Local Affairs Committee at the time when the question of autonomy was proposed. The Slabbert Commission of Inquiry was instituted to look into the matter of autonomy. When Mr Justice Slabbert came to Chatsworth and saw the concrete jungle and the one solitary ill-designed building put up in Unit 6, he said that it was not a viable proposition, and that was as far as the Slabbert Commission went. There were many attempts thereafter by many devious persons to get Chatsworth to accept autonomy.

In Merebank some of those radical elements paid dearly for their protest against the Durban City Council. They were subjected to police harassment and threats because they protested legitimately against an injustice—an injustice that was unacceptable to the masses.

While complimenting the hon the Minister, I want to support the views and proposals for designing a new constitutional model for South Africa which embodies provincial, regional and local levels of government acceptable to all concerned.

Scrap own affairs!

Yes, we have to scrap that. That is why we are here—we want to scrap own affairs. We are trying, but that hon member is one of those who is trying to sustain it. [Interjections.]

I want to move on to a more “dishy” subject, namely agriculture. Carrots are grown extensively in Merebank. I want to thank the hon the Minister for taking a keen interest in obtaining the Louis Botha Airport land for our market gardeners.

That is not your constituency. You are now speaking about my constituency.

It is true that one of the first inspections that the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture carried out was to visit those market gardeners, together with the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. I was very surprised that it received such priority. I was invited along, and a few market gardeners were very pleased to be present too.

Here I would fail in my responsibility if I do not acknowledge the very good work done by the former hon Minister. [Interjections.] He did the ground work and he was instrumental in getting the land from the SATS which rightfully owned it. He was present at several meetings that he had organised, and those market gardeners were well received. I want to acknowledge that and I want to say thank you to him. That land was given to some of the people affected in the 1987 floods, together with various other people in Shallcross and Springfield who were affected in other ways. I am satisfied with the representation that I made and the response that I got from the hon the Minister. We were able to get that land.

However, I wish to address the hon the Minister on the following aspects affecting the gardeners. Some farmers have been successful in clearing their lantana growth but others are not as fortunate because of the heavy growth of these plants as well as the thick-rooted grass. These people live from hand to mouth and they cannot afford the extensive labour costs of having these weeds removed.

There is the rubble too.

Some time back when the Louis Botha Airport was being developed, rubble and concrete were dumped on these sites and this also presents problems. I am not trying to find excuses but these are the difficulties that are being experienced. I am appealing to the hon the Minister to look into this matter.

The major problem appears to be the drainage. On rainy days the place is flooded and this water does not have an escape route. There is a canal a couple of kilometers away, but what we need are major canals to be dug up so that the farmers in turn can dig up small canals leading to this canal, and this in turn will lead to the main stream. It will be a very costly undertaking and these market gardeners cannot afford it. They are small pocket market gardeners growing a few carrots, tomatoes, dhanja and lettuce. These are the cash crops and they take them to the market themselves. If these daily problems are solved we can build pathways for access or even small roads so that small carts and small trucks can traverse the area.

I appeal to the hon the Minister to look into this matter, but I also urge him to work with the consultant at the Department of Public Works and Land Affairs, because if the situation can be improved this area will present a welcome sign to visitors as well as to those who are coming into Durban. These are plain lands therefore one can clearly see the beautiful gardens laid out and it would be such a welcoming sign for visitors to Natal, the great Garden Province of South Africa. At the moment that area is a very gloomy sight because it is covered with bushes.

From a security point of view, it would help the airport at the same time, because these bushes can offer a place of hiding for would-be saboteurs. Therefore it would be beneficial to the airport, the authorities, the province and the farmers if this matter were to be considered. I hope the hon the Minister will take it into consideration. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, many hon members expressed their appreciation to my colleague the former hon Minister of Local Government and Agriculture. I was associated with him and worked closely with him. We had our ups and downs, as is normal. As two individuals we often did not see eye to eye, but on the whole I want to express the view that we did a fairly good job under the circumstances. Because the circumstances this department works under are not the easiest of circumstances, taking everything into consideration.

I shall not belabour the point, but insofar as local government is concerned, I want to say that together with my colleague the hon the Minister of the Budget and the hon member for Northern Natal an ad hoc committee was established and at the time I thought there was not much wisdom in it. However, as time passed and the three of us met and applied our minds collectively to the task at hand, I saw the wisdom in this and I believe the three of us worked together very well. We found each other and I think the Department of Local Government, as such, benefitted from the fact that we worked together as a team.

We complemented each other’s thinking and I think this sharing of responsibilities is a concept that should be established, not necessarily in this department, but also in other areas. Instead of keeping decisions the responsibility of individuals a wider sharing of these responsibilities can be of benefit to the departments concerned.

Insofar as the Naicker Committee for the Investigation of Agricultural Land is concerned, I know a tremendous amount of work was done by this committee—so much so that by and large the investigation of agricultural land for Indian farmers in Natal was almost completed before the hon member for Northern Natal was relieved of his duties as Minister. However, the investigation in the Transvaal was not completed.

The hon member for Northern Natal mentioned yesterday that I had been charged with the task of identifying surplus agricultural land. He then wanted me to respond as to whether this task had been completed. For the benefit of my hon colleague, I just want to say that the task has been completed and a preliminary report has been submitted to the Ministers’ Council. As soon as the Ministers’ Council gives consideration to this report they can make further decisions with regard to the surplus agricultural land which was identified.

I remember the circumstances when we began this investigation. I remember how the hon member was denigrated because he went on this tour to identify this agricultural land. This was the type of pressure that was brought to bear upon people by the former hon Chairman of the Minister’s Council. The hon member for Northern Natal invited me to have a look at the agricultural land in Lenasia and in Palmridge. Upon our return, however, the hon member and I were amazed at our reception. He is laughing today, but it was a matter of concern in those days. I shared the pain that he suffered. I do not know how that hon member survived that onslaught. It is amazing how he remained where he was, because when he came back he was told in no uncertain terms that he had no business to go and look at land which was surplus to housing; it was the prerogative of the Minister of Housing, because it was agricultural land, and that hon member and myself were wasting taxpayers’ money by going there. This was the kind of pressure that was brought to bear.

Maybe the other man wanted to plant carrots there!

Well, Mr Chairman, the fact of the matter is that a man who is not here today who is a member of Parliament, unfortunately pontificates outside this august Chamber, and he says that he was never a bully. However this is one instance where he was a master bully.

You gave him two chances; you rescued him.

I believe that insofar as agricultural land is concerned, for as long as group areas and the restrictions imposed on the availability of land through the Group Areas Act remain, we shall not succeed in making an input as a people in this country. We as a people should contribute to the production of food in our land, as we are capable of doing. I do not want to say how our people are capable; the hon the Minister of the Budget did indicate to this House some time back how one farmer in the Mooi River area had made a fantastic input. I believe at the last Royal Agricultural Show his animals won top prizes. The fact of the matter, therefore, is that whilst people say that 95% of the Indian community are now urbanised, it is not for the reason that they want to be urbanised; it is simply the restrictions of the Group Areas Act which imposes this non-availability of land on a people who are generally from farming stock.

My father loved the soil. I know how, when I was at school, my father cared for his orchard trees, how he tilled the land, and that love for the soil—for dharti mata (mother earth)—is inherent. To us, mother earth is sacred. Thus this sacred aspect of our culture is being denied us through the Group Areas Act. We can talk till the cows come home, but I say that for as long as the Act remains and imposes restrictions on the availability of agricultural land, or for that matter any land in this country, we will not be able to get to where we want to go, and that is a free and open society.

The other aspect as far as agricultural land is concerned is that they have removed the authority of the province in respect of considering applications and issuing permits for buying agricultural land from Whites. I do not say that that is a route that we support, but for as long as that is the only route by which we can obtain agricultural land—from White farmers—we are using it. However it is regrettable that that function is being taken away from the provincial authorities and being vested in own affairs departments.

As far as I am concerned it was possible to obtain these permits in recent times. I do not say it was relatively easy, but my experience is that soon after the function was taken over by the province, it was possible for us to obtain permits and I have succeeded in many instances.

The hon member for Springfield said in his speech that our budget for this department is R6,3 million. He also said that the hon the Minister and the hon the Deputy Minister live on the budget of R6,3 million. I want to tell the hon member—he is not here and I hope his colleague will convey this to him—that I do not get one cent of that R6,3 million. I do not get one cent of that, so the R6,3 million is not something from which I benefit. My bread is derived from another Vote. Therefore, if the hon member for Springfield intends not to pass this Vote this afternoon, it will affect my hon colleague but it will not affect me. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I will be utterly failing in my duty if I do not acknowledge the output of the former hon Minister. I was one of the members in Parliament who hit this former hon Minister hardest over the last four years. I was deliberately hard-hitting to prod him even further and the results were excellent.

I must congratulate the former hon Minister of Local Government and Agriculture for all the effort he put in. He took over the portfolio immediately after the Natal flood damage and he had an extremely difficult time. I know how it went at times and I sometimes wondered how he functioned so efficiently.

I also want to thank him for proving to the Government officials from the House of Assembly—senior members like the Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing in the House of Assembly and the Deputy Chairman of the Reserve Bank—the good system followed by Indian farming; so much so that my area is mentioned in his report.

I must also compliment the former hon Minister on the hard work he put in in solving the Indian Market problem in Durban which had been going on for over 20 years. There he also excelled and I must give him due credit. Although I prodded him heavily, I at one stage thought I was pushing the hon the Minister against a brick wall and I was not going to go any further.

However, the bulldozing paid dividends. As I said, I must acknowledge—not apologise—I did my duty. He responded to the prodding and bulldozing and today I crown him with the success he has achieved. [Interjections.] I say a very big “thank you” to the former hon Minister, the hon member for Northern Natal.

Coming back to the present debate and referring to the hon the Minister’s report in which Hammarsdale Dam is mentioned, I must say that I am a bit peeved about what has happened there. My first letter to the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture called for irrigation and water supply to Cliffdale on 20 August 1986. Things went out but unfortunately the 1987 floods came and I understand—it is the first I hear of this—the dam was rendered unsuitable.

What annoys me is that being a member of this Parliament and being a person who is motivated for the dam to be utilised for agricultural purposes, I was not kept up to date. I had a definite speech here with which to bombard the hon the Minister on that issue. I think this shows callousness.

There are people from all over who are going to the Ministry about the irrigation of land and they are crying out for additional agricultural land. In Cliffdale itself two thirds of the land is standing unutilised because of the lack of irrigation and water.

I repeat what I have said several times in debates—that water to a farmer is like blood to the human body. If a ministry or its officials give this need a careless treatment, it annoys me. Those who are of farming stock understand the desperate need for the provision of irrigation water to the agricultural producer. The streams that flow through Cliffdale are strong enough and I hope the hon the Minister fulfils his commitment here to give further attention to this. I hope it does not take five years. I am coming back to Parliament next year, regardless of opposition in the elections. I am certain, as daybreak follows night, that I will be in Parliament and I will face this hon Minister. [Interjections.]

The point is that there is a hue and cry for agricultural land. We are desperately short of land and proper utilisation of whatever land is available must be a first priority. It is always said that a man who is empty upstairs is very strong on his knees. Empty-headed people must therefore not run all over the country and look for more land. The land is there and it must be put to proper use. Just as the hon the Minister will not put water in his petrol tank and petrol in his radiator, he must get his priorities right and attend to the provision of irrigation water for that particular section of a very active farming industry, which the hon the Minister feels worthy to mention regarding conservation farming, which is second to none in the country. Thirty years ago people would have killed one if one tried to initiate soil conservation. However, it eventually paid dividends.

I would like to touch briefly on a local government issue. The relevant paragraph in the hon the Minister’s report on local government reads as follows, and I quote:

This is very important. It has a very interesting smell, as perfume is used to make people sweet-smelling. The hon the Minister recommends in his report that the local affairs and management committee system must be done away with.

However, here I want to ask the question: What happened in Natal on 4 April 1989, and what has the hon the Minister’s party done? The ruling party supported the devolution of power to local affairs committees, thereby fragmenting local affairs. [Interjections.] In Afrikaans they say: “Ek maak nie ’n moordkuil van my hart nie.” In English this means that I speak my mind, without fear or favour. I speak for nobody else. It is my duty to expose the double standards of this party. They state in the newspapers that local affairs committees must be done away with. Yet, in another chamber in another forum they support the existence of local affairs committees and their devolved power. I cannot reconcile the two statements.

But who supports local affairs committees?

Mr Chairman, the hon the Deputy Minister is a very good friend of mine, but here there is no friendship.

The point is: What is one implying by supporting the devolution of power to local affairs committees? One is implying that those committees must exist and that they must get a fragment of the power enjoyed by the city councils and the municipalities in boroughs. It is extending the life of the local affairs committees. Otherwise, why does one have to devolve power to them? That is the million dollar question. I would like the hon the Minister to answer that.

I repeat that the statements of that party and its members are on record. I, as a member of the committee, immediately recorded in Natal my surprise and astonishment at the House of Delegates component.

Mr Chairman, will the hon member indicate whether he had the opportunity of studying the ordinance that he refers to?

The component of that Natal… [Interjections.] I do not like interjections, Sir. I did not interject while the hon member was speaking. The point is that that component of the Natal LAC was represented by Solidarity.

Yes!

It was represented by the PFP and the NPP. All these parties in Parliament are guilty of that crime. Not one single hon member got up and opposed or objected to the devolution of power in that regard.

[Inaudible.]

I am talking about local affairs committees.

You have got it wrong! [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members must allow the hon member to proceed.

Hon members tell me that I am wrong here. When I got up in Natal and objected and expressed my surprise and amazement at their supporting that fragmentation of power, nobody said I was wrong. The hon the Minister will answer for this. [Interjections.]

I will explain that.

I am talking about the devolution of power from 1975. [Interjections.] I am sorry, my dates are wrong. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I, too, want to take the opportunity to express thanks and appreciation to the former Minister of Local Government and Agriculture. We must appreciate the work that he did. We also appreciate that he did a lot of work under duress.

We also want to express our thanks to the hon the Deputy Minister of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture, who is also the Deputy Minister of Environment Affairs. We appreciate the work that he has done both in this administration and in the general affairs Cabinet. We want to place on record his work in his department and in both ministries.

We welcome the present hon Minister. We realize the traumatic circumstances under which he was displaced. We realize the extent of the trauma he went through. Nobody would like to suffer such trauma, we are all human beings. We want to congratulate him on again being Minister in his portfolio. We wish him every success in that sensitive portfolio.

Having said that, I want to refer the hon the Minister to a certain paragraph in his policy speech. I quote:

Here the shortcomings of the own affairs system are made clear. If we speak from the Cape Province point of view, when the divisional councils were abolished many local affairs or management committees were left without what we would call parent local authorities. Now Cravenby Estate, for example, is without any parent local authority. The hon the Minister is now the local authority. He may have delegated that authority to the hon the Deputy Minister.

What a mess!

I warned the hon the Deputy Minister that I was going to raise this point and that we were going to nail them, not as persons, but in view of the absurdity of the system that we have in this country. What I find most strange is that this “local authority” of Cravenby Estate is—if I may use the word—powerless and toothless. I am not asking for local autonomy for them, please. They will shoot me down.

However, the hon Ministers concerned are the local authority. They are now the Cravenby management committee. To put it in very plain language, those five hon Ministers are the puppets. Let me be candid and say that those hon Ministers are criticising themselves when they say that management committees are useless. They are in effect saying that they are useless, toothless, powerless bodies.

Shameless!

They are shameless too, because the Administration: House of Delegates is the executive arm. If one has to be candid and take it to its logistic conclusion, it means that all of us are toothless! I would be naive if I do not admit that. The hon the Minister is also admitting that by implication.

We have respect for the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning. Hon members expressed their sentiments and said that his heart was in the right place, but that he had to follow NP ideology. He is way ahead in his thinking with regard to his vision for South Africa, but his party is far behind. This is what one would call apartheid by virtue of the fact that the Minister concerned, sitting here and in Malgate House, is the real local authority for Cravenby Estate. Whatever Cravenby Estate does, has to be approved by these two hon Ministers. The senior Minister may say to the Deputy Minister that he should do it. If the hon Ministers want allowances, they can chop and change. It is high time that we examined the situation. We always hear words, words, words, but we see no action whatsoever.

I find myself in another difficult situation with regard to Cravenby Estate. They tried to dump Cravenby Estate onto the Cape Town City Council. They used the word “parent” local authority and called Cravenby the “child” local authority.

It is an orphan!

My colleague, the hon member for Stanger, said that local authorities in regard to the Indian people are nothing but local affairs for Indians. I agree with him. However, the parent local authority is always a White municipality. All other local authorities are still regarded as children, as babies, even if they are older than 21 years!

In the case of Cravenby, they have been trying to get the Cape Town City Council to take over this baby. Cape Town said, “No deal” and rejected it. Why?

Because it was illegitimate!

Cape Town said, “How can we take care of this little baby when it is some 21 kilometres away from us?” Cravenby argued that they should be placed under the Parow municipality, which is just one kilometer away. Of course, Parow is fully under NP control. They do not want to have anything to do with the Indian community. Maybe Parow will come under CP control after 6 September. Who is now suffering? The Indian community is suffering! No amenities are being provided. No civic hall is being provided. I think that the hon Ministers know that representations have been made for the provision of halls and basic civic facilities.

Nothing has been provided because Cravenby Estate is hanging by a string and the local authority is here. The hon Ministers know what I am speaking about. Several memorandums and letters have been written to the ministries concerned. The hon the Minister is pointing at the previous hon Minister. The previous hon Minister is no longer the Minister. They do not know where they are because in the House of Delegates hon members walk over from one party to another and back again. That is what goes on here.

I want to come to the hon the Minister’s report, where he says the following:

We all agree with him. He says:

I would like to know from the hon the Minister and his colleagues in the Ministers’ Council… [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the land issue with regard to La Mercy Airport and the fact that it falls within the North Coast constituency, has been raised in this forum again. I have had the privilege of visiting the area with the former Minister of Local Government and Agriculture. I must give credit to the former Minister and admit that he is a go-getter. He did everything in his power to acquire more land for the Indian community. [Interjections.]

However, I am not one who likes to arouse emotions. I like to face facts. The fact is that that land is controlled and farmed by the South African Sugar Association. Sasa provides a very useful service, not only to the White community but to the whole sugar industry.

I want to give hon members a little run-down on Sasa. The training and development of the nation’s manpower resources is a prerequisite to sustaining economic growth. Sasa, a unique, integrated agricultural and manufacturing enterprise, is at the forefront of the training efforts.

The South African sugar industry is one of the largest and most efficient agriculture-based industries in South Africa, producing 2 million tons of sugar a year. It is a significant earner of foreign revenue for the RSA. The sugar industry employs more than 160 000 South Africans in agriculture, research, milling and associated fields. More than occupations are involved, offering a wealth of career opportunities.

Sasa was formed in 1936 by the South African Cane Growers’ Association and the South African Sugar Millers’ Association. They operate a well-regulated organisation which will result in the greatest benefit to its members. Since the early seventies the association has progressively introduced new programmes to promote the well-being of all employees in the sugar industry by creating a secure environment in which they can further themselves according to their individual goals and potential.

Training is a priority and a number of training establishments and programmes have been developed. These are the Industrial Training Centre which caters mainly for the training needs of the sugar mills and refineries, the experiment station’s training department which provides a wide range of courses for agricultural workers in the industry and the Sugar Milling Research Institute’s training programme for the training and education of sugar technologists.

Mr Chairman, I trust that the hon member will pardon me if I do not follow up his arguments. All that I know about sugar is that it is sweet and that we all enjoy it.

I want to remind the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture—and he must reply to us—that with regard to the vacancy in the Lenasia South East Management Committee over the past seven months, we want him to give us a categorical assurance that the voters there will be allowed to exercise their democratic rights and that there will be an election in that ward and no appointment of an hon member of that side of the House.

Furthermore, the hon the Minister must also indicate to us whether, at the time when the demarcation board was looking at the question of Prospecton becoming part of one or other local authority, he was the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture but without any power. Did he use his persuasive powers—if he had any—to try to get the demarcation board to include Prospecton where it rightfully belongs, namely with the local authority of Isipingo?

The third question I would like to ask the hon the Minister concerns the question of a uniform rating system. He spoke of this in his speech on local government. I trust that this evaluation will not interfere with the question of places of religious instruction such as mosques, temples, churches, synagogues and so on. As far as we are concerned, all places of religious instruction should be exempted from the payment of rates because all we do there is to try to look after the spiritual needs of people. We are not doing any business and making any money out of them.

Finally, with regard to local government, I just want to remind the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture that I suppose it is time that he should try to get his adherents to be a little more honest to themselves. During the course of the municipal elections in my home town last year, a letter addressed by the Ministry of Constitutional Development to a Mr Reddy—he is a postmaster in Benoni South—was used by some of his adherents and some of his supporters. One of them is sitting there and that is Mr Razak. They blotted out the name and address of Mr Reddy and put in bold letters “Apex”. They then claimed in a pamphlet which accompanied the letter that Dr J N Reddy supported Apex in Windmill Park and that Mr Abram Mayet and others did not support it. In this way they tried to mislead people by claiming falsely that this letter was ostensibly directed at Dr Reddy whereas all the time it was directed at a Mr Reddy. They conveniently blotted out the man’s name. This is electoral fraud and dishonesty at its lowest level. [Interjections.]

It does not pay to complain to that hon Minister’s party because irrespective of what one tells them about the dishonesties in which their people indulge, they are not interested in hearing it. That is one of the reasons why I could not work with that party.

With regard to agriculture, I want to pay tribute to the former Minister of Agriculture who had a very difficult time when our country was involved in the havoc caused by the floods, particularly in Natal. That hon Minister went out of his way to do whatever he could for the flood-ravaged farmers in Natal. Whether they are Indians, Coloureds, Blacks, pinks or yellows, they are human beings involved in the growing of food for the nation.

Unfortunately the person who is responsible for designating agriculture as an own affair is not sitting here now, but I would like to ask him to tell me why he does not reserve the cultivation of carrots for Indians only. Carrots are yellowish in colour and we have a brownish pigmentation, so we should be ideal to cultivate carrots because we need more of it. [Interjections.]

And you will market them.

Of course we will market them at the best prices—prices that the Whites would not be able to get for their produce as far as carrots are concerned. [Interjections.]

Be that as it may, I believe that the hon the Minister’s speech underlines the argument that this is the one Ministry that should be dissolved immediately, because it is costing the taxpayer millions of rand in duplication of services. If we are serving agriculture it is immaterial to me whether a White person from the Cedara College of Agriculture or an Indian person serves me.

Since the owner of Honeydew Dairies, who breeds champion Friesland cattle, is a person of Indian origin I would like to ask whether the colours of his Friesland cattle—which are usually black and white in colour—have changed. [Interjections.] I would also like to know whether the colour of the milk he gets from those animals has changed in any way. As far as I know the colour of those Friesland cows’ milk remains white, irrespective of who the farmer is.

[Inaudible.]

Yes, it is cream-coloured.

I am disappointed that no acknowledgement is given anywhere in this report to the former hon Minister of Local Government and Agriculture. [Interjections.] I am sure that if the hon Minister takes off his jacket one would still be able to see blood streaming down it. [Interjections.] This is no joke, I am being serious. Hon members do not have to laugh about it, it is a serious matter.

Who knifed him?

That hon Minister was unceremoniously relieved of his duties and the first time that he heard about it was on the television. This NP Government knows how to use people for as long as they are useful. If they are no longer useful, they are ditched. I want to warn those hon Ministers that the same will happen to them one day. They will probably also hear on the television that they have been relieved of their duties, without any courtesy being shown with regard to a person’s feelings. A person should be told for what reason he is being relieved of his duties.

The hon the State President should know that to-ing and fro-ing is indeed part of the culture of this House. [Interjections.] Yet without having even been informed of it, that former hon Minister heard that he had been fired and was no longer the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture.

I would also like to know from the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture—he should tell hon members of this House because we are entitled to know—what sort of duties are actually delegated to the hon the Deputy Minister of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture. I believe the hon members in this House have the right to know whether, in fact, any duties are delegated to the hon the Deputy Minister.

I want to congratulate the former hon Minister—someone else is taking the credit in this report, but I want to give credit where it belongs—for playing the lion’s share of the role in trying to get the Cabinet committee off the ground to look into the aspects of agriculture with regard to this so-called population group.

The hon the Minister must also tell me whether the Agricultural Credit Board has been created as a result of legislation, or not. Because my enquiries revealed that there is an Agricultural Credit Board, but there is no statutory backing for it.

I understand that out of R15 million that was earmarked for flood damage, R15 million was not utilised. That is now being channelled to agriculture. That is again a credit to the former hon Minister for the very hard work he did in that case.

Why was relief not given?

Why was relief not given to the flood-ravaged farmers?

They suffered!

I have been given to understand that R4 million was made available to them, but if any farmer had not been given help, I believe that something ought to be done about it. Let me make it quite clear, many of our people who are involved in agriculture are unfortunately in such dire straits—they cannot farm in their own names, because many of them rent farms from Whites. They often do not get permits for those farms. Although the hon the Deputy Minister told us that he has had success in certain such cases, that should not be the order of the day.

The sooner this blessed Government in South Africa makes up its mind that the White people alone will not be able to feed the millions in this country in future, that it will need the involvement of the skills and entrepreneurship of everybody in this country… [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, first of all I, too, want to place on record my appreciation to the former hon Minister of Local Government and Agriculture for the work he has done, and also to the current hon Minister of Local Government and Agriculture as well as the Deputy Minister. All of them have done excellent work to get this machine, which lacks a starter motor, going.

I also want to place on record my thanks to Mr R P Wronsley, the Director-General, who is now being transferred to a top job. Particularly when my committee sat to investigate certain irregularities, I received a lot of co-operation from him which I will not forget. I must place my thanks on record, and I congratulate and compliment him and wish him everything of the best in the new job he is going into.

From that I want to turn to the issue of the Marburg Town Board. I think this has been blown up out of al! proportion. I can remember that two brothers called V K Naidoo and K G Naidoo acquired a large stretch of land for the purpose of banana farming. Later that land had certain potential, and an application was made for township development. When that application was granted, they gave the whole township development to a company so that they could carry out the development. One of the conditions of establishment of that township was providing proper sanitation. At that time the local authority was the Marburg Town Board.

Later the two brothers were unable to manage the development and sale of the land because they needed a lot of staff, expertise and so on, and a group of honourable gentlemen acquired the whole township development.

What did they pay for it?

That is not your business. [Interjections.]

[Inaudible.]

I wish to give certain details, because this was blown up out of all proportion. [Interjections.] Certain people are being called thieves, rogues and robbers. When the township was developed, sanitation had to be provided, and Marburg Town Board was given an undertaking in order to provide the service. However, a Government department provided this service, and not the Marburg Town Board. The rightful thing for Marburg Town Board to have done was to cancel that undertaking and return it to the company. Who is being dishonest now?

You tell us.

There are certain people who belong to a clique who have made these documents available to…

In the interests of clean administration.

Shut up! [Interjections.]

Order! The other day I gave the ruling that hon members must not use the expression “shut up” with direct reference to an hon member. The hon member will kindly withdraw it.

I withdraw it, Mr Chairman. Will you ask him not to interrupt.

Order! The hon member may continue.

The hon members for Reservoir Hills and Springfield had been provided with certain information by a quisling who is now going to stand as a member for the DP in South Coast.

I must provide the historical background in this regard. This member of the town board, who is the chairman of the town board, used to live in the Umhlatuzana Township. He was a prominent man. One day he was found hanging under a tree because he had stolen his sister’s money. I was present when they cut the rope. It was Peter Govender; he was found hanging under a mango tree. The rope was cut because he did not know how to tie the knot. Then he caused a lot of problems. He was ostracised from society and had to get away from Umhlatuzana Township into South Coast, and now he is creating a similar problem.

The names of honourable gentlemen are being quoted here. They are not thieves. They have not taken any money. The point is that the Marburg Town Council was not in a position to fulfil or to perform the provision of the sanitation works. It was conducted by a Government department. They are not liable for any money; they do not owe any money. Therefore anybody who is now making an issue of this must have their heads read. They are making an election issue of this.

I would now like to come to what the hon member Mr Abram has done. I have tape recordings of all telephone conversations between Mr Abram and myself which I can play to all hon members of Parliament here.

Play them! Play them!

Mr Abram was going for the entire House of Delegates so that he could become the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. He had a number of people. Unfortunately he did not succeed.

You lie! Bring the cassettes!

Order! The hon member Mr Abram may not use the words “you lie” in reference to another hon member. The hon member must withdraw that.

Mr Chairman, even though the hon member lied, I will say that he has misled us.

Order! The hon member must withdraw that unconditionally.

Mr Chairman, I withdraw it. He is misleading us! I challenge him to bring those cassettes!

Order! The hon member is not entitled to make a statement. The hon member Mr Thaver may proceed.

Mr Chairman, he was trying to get the majority in this House. He and the former hon Minister of Local Government and Agriculture tried their best. Unfortunately they were not successful. The people who were successful are the honourable people on this side of the House. [Interjections.] Therefore all that the hon member Mr Abram has said is sour grapes. [Interjections.]

Order! Will hon members please allow the hon member to make his contribution. The hon member may proceed.

The hon member Mr Abram was not in a position to become the ruling party and therefore all he says is sour grapes. In the process the hon member for Northern Natal also lost his position.

Order! Will the hon member please come back to the Vote under discussion.

Mr Chairman, I also want to say in relation to agriculture that the hon member Mr Abram was sacked as the Chairman of the House.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I just want to say that nobody sacked me—least of all this ugly hon member.

Order! That is not a point of order, but the statement has been noted.

Mr Chairman, I do not know how much all that steam is going to contribute towards the upliftment of our society and of our community whom we represent here.

Some people believe…

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I think with all due respect to you that the last statement of the hon member Mr Thaver that the hon member Mr Abram was sacked as Chairman of the House, was uncalled for.

Order! That is not a point of order.

No, Sir. It is uncalled for because the hon member was not sacked. He resigned. I am making a statement.

Order! It was part of his speech and he was entitled to make the statement. I will allow that statement. Will the hon member for Rylands please resume his seat.

Mr Chairman, I appeal to you as a responsible Chairman of the House to clarify that that statement is incorrect.

Order! It has absolutely nothing to do with the debate, but I have allowed the statement.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Is an hon member of this House permitted to make a statement which is palpably false?

Order! That is not a point of order. The hon member for Stanger may proceed.

Cover-up!

Order! The hon member Mr Abram will have to withdraw the word “cover-up”. He is very fond of using it. I appeal to him please not to use that word in future. The hon member for Stanger may proceed.

Mr Chairman, I want to say that it is rather unfortunate that this type of peripheral exchange on peripheral issues which have nothing to do with the main issue, is constantly engaging the minds of hon members here. I do not think it augurs well as regards our contributing towards any progress in our community.

Put some sense into your member who is always “gedop”!

Mr Chairman, I want the hon member who is interjecting the whole time to understand that the validity of an argument is not proven by interjecting and by being robust and making a big noise. That is not the way to prove any argument.

I want to say that hon members have made very serious allegations. “Electoral fraud” is what I heard. Then I also heard about carrot-dangling. What is the purpose of carrot-dangling? I also heard “to-ing and fro-ing”. However, the hon members who say these things have been guilty of these very offences. I want to say to these hon members that they were conspicuous…

Order! I have appealed to hon members this afternoon to refrain from using the word “carrot-dangling” in that context.

I respect your wish, Mr Chairman.

All I am saying at this stage is that some hon members who are making very serious statements here were conspicuous by their absence at the James Commission, where every opportunity was presented by the State for hon members to go and articulate anything irregular pertaining to hon members of this House. However, they were conspicuous by their absence. They must search their own consciences. Why did they not raise these issues then? Why waste the time of the House now, when we have real issues to worry about? I warn hon members that if they continue in this way, the electorate will watch them. One can only kid the electorate some of the time, and not all of the time. I think we must understand this very clearly.

Coming back to the issue, I want the hon the Minister to take note of what the mayor of Durban has been threatening to do and been alluding to in the recent past. He says that Durban has grown much too big and he suggests that Durban be hived off into independent little local authorities. He furthermore suggests that these be given autonomy. I want to caution and warn hon members and the hon the Minister against that. I want the hon the Minister to understand that the Scratter Committee sat in Durban some decade ago and not a single Indian came forward in support of the concept and idea of having the southern part of Durban hived off from the rest of the metropolitan area, with a view to establishing a separate local authority for that region based on race. The same thing happened as far as northern Durban is concerned, where the Essery Committee investigated the area of Phoenix, for the benefit of the hon member for Phoenix. Again, not a single Indian or person of colour came out in support of that idea.

Hence we must be wary about these guises under which attempts are being made by the authorities to force onto us what was engineered some time ago. Adaptation of the apartheid laws will not be acceptable to us. We are not here to accept any adaptation of the principles of segregation or apartheid.

Again I say that the mayor of Durban makes very nice-sounding statements that it will do away with the cultural centre, etc, because much money is supposedly being wasted, which could be used for the upliftment of the people living in squatter areas. However, the squatter areas and all these factors are only symptoms of the system itself. What we need to do is to address the cause. The cause is the suppression of people on racial grounds. Racial supremacy in South Africa must come to an end. I do not want to burden the hon the Minister of own affairs with that particular argument. That is rather a constitutional debate for general affairs. I understand that, but what I am saying is that when discussions take place on the question of local government, one must be wary of this.

I respectfully want to say to the hon member for Camperdown, who is a friend of mine and for whom I have much love and affection, that he probably misunderstood the situation. We certainly did not accept, in Pietermaritzburg or in any other place, devolution of power for local affairs committees. Nowhere did we do that. In fact, what has happened there was that there were certain restrictions in the local government ordinances which made it incumbent on a local authority to obtain the consent of the Administrator before it could proceed with certain matters. There are certain aspects of that particular provision with which we disagreed and which we rejected totally, and it was not passed. There were other aspects which were of a minor nature, and only after some amendments were made to the proposals, did we accept them. That was done in total concurrence and agreement with a member of the hon member’s own party from the House of Assembly.

I must therefore say that in Natal, unlike in the other provinces, the House of Delegates component of that joint committee, I believe, has used this participation most effectively, because nothing could get through that particular committee, unless there was total consensus. I can assure the hon member for Camperdowri that there was total consensus before we reached any decision in that particular regard. There was no objection from anybody. I am prepared to explain to the hon member after this debate and to give him more information to enlighten him on that particular subject.

In reference to agriculture, I want to state categorically that I acknowledge the praise that has been bestowed upon the previous Minister. However, let us look again at what we are offered with regard to agricultural progress. In the Transvaal, land that is not immediately required for housing should be used for agricultural purposes. Why should that be the situation? Agriculture should be an open matter. There should be no racial connotation. There are no Indian carrots, no Coloured carrots, no Black carrots and no White carrots. From an agricultural point of view carrots are just carrots.

Let me get to the point. In the Louis Botha area, 110 ha of land was given to the Indians after we had lost approximately 20 000 ha of land. That is a mere pittance in comparison with the losses that we had sustained over the years.

I would like to see the hon the Minister take it upon himself to go to the department and ask for the subdivision of certain areas to create smallholdings for Indians. In the report, it is stated that 110 ha is equal to 38 sites. My calculation brings that to 2,89 ha per unit. Therefore, if the Government can allow 2,89 ha per unit, then why not allow the fanners in Nanoti, Sinkwazi and other areas to have smallholdings in order to become involved in cash cropping and have free title to the land? Why not allow them that? If the State can do that in the Louis Botha area, then why not allow this? This will give the small man the opportunity to work and to have an area where he can build himself a house. Around his house he can plant crops and provide for his family and the community, the region and maybe the nation as a whole.

If all the small fanners got together on such a basis they would have security, they would be productive and they would become economically viable. I think this should be encouraged. I believe the idea of viable units running into hundreds of hectares before they can be subdivided into farming units does not apply to the Indian community. The Indians have proved over the years that they can farm on smallholdings when it comes to cash crop farming. They have done very well in this regard.

I again find it unfortunate that the previous Minister had negotiated for the La Mercy Airport and that the land reserved for the La Mercy Airport be made available on a lease basis. Why should we be beggars all our lives? Why should we beg for what we can do and provide for the nation as a whole? I believe the impediment that affects the Indian community in its agricultural progress has been the Group Areas Act and what it entails in respect of agricultural land.

Which was supported by your party!

The solution lies in the Private Member’s Bill of the hon member for Camperdown. If that Bill had been adopted a long time ago, we would have had no problems by now. The Indians would have been able to acquire land, develop it and provide for the nation of South Africa as a whole.

I would like to conclude by associating myself with the sentiments expressed about the Director-General. I had the occasion of being in contact with him as an ordinary member of Parliament and my association with him has been a good one. I have found him to be a person of integrity and high standards. I wish him well in his new appointment.

Mr Chairman, I must thank all hon members for their contributions to this debate, which has two parts, namely that of local government and that of agriculture. I think one can accept that frustration due to the situation we find ourselves in is the reason for the nature of the criticism levelled here today. This is not due to ignorance, but because of frustration with the system of Government. I acknowledge this. Therefore I make no apology for the role that we play.

By the same token, I wish hon members to realise that in this House we have made our points of view clear from 1984, namely that we are participating in the system so that we will be able to use this institution to institute change. If the Minister and the Deputy Minister are removed from office it will make no difference, because hon members will remain and someone else will become the Minister of Local Government. I think it is just a matter of playing with words.

In reply to the hon member for Lenasia Central, it is true that we all agree that the local affairs and management system must go. I have said in this policy statement—and we on this side of the House endorse this—that the time has come and the Government must phase it out and introduce a new programme. We cannot go on in this manner. It is an outdated policy which was undemocratically forced onto the people.

My hon colleague has referred to training courses. There is, in fact, a training board and through this board courses are available to members and officers of the municipalities. In fact, they have recently also devised a video programme course aimed at local affairs and management committee members. I hope to bring these matters forward in my discussions with Tamcom and Assomac so that we can assist in these problems which the hon member has raised.

It is true that the Lombard Committee which sat in Isipingo made one important finding, namely that the local councillors had to be educated in local government. There is a need for this education process in government.

I now come to voting powers for RSCs. As my colleague knows, the built-in safeguard was that no-one would have more than 50% of the vote. I agree with the hon member that there should be equal votes. The time for that has come. As I have said, I believe that the RSCs can be devolved into a local government authority with legislative powers. When the time comes for South Africa to move in the direction of one constitution—and the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning has mentioned this—we hope that some of these matters which hon members have raised will be borne in mind. At present, however, it is constituted on another basis.

I also wish to say something about the attendance of LAC members on standing committees. Like my hon colleague has said, we in Natal have total representation. Members do not have any voting powers, but they serve on standing committees. When the 11 powers were first regulated, the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning had hoped that the others would follow suit and that local committee members would be represented on the standing committees. Of course, the Administrator had no power to enforce that. We are therefore in the position that there are no members who serve on standing committees in the Transvaal. However, I intend to take up this matter when I meet with Tamcom.

As far as the incorporation of Lenasia is concerned, I have said that these matters have reached a very…

Advanced stage!

Advanced stage, yes. I must say to the hon member that I met with the MEC of Local Government only this morning. A meeting is being arranged and my senior officials have been busy working on this, because we too want to resolve this issue. One cannot have Lenasia Extensions 8, 9, 10 and Lenasia South on two different tariffs. We are talking about that portion which the Johannesburg City Council is prepared to look at in principle, but there are financial implications. I hope we will have some results. I will communicate with the hon member in due course.

I now come to the Peri-urban Board. A date has been set to dissolve this board on 1 July 1989. The House of Assembly is going to have its own board. I have been faced with the problem that we have to take over that component—like my colleague has mentioned—and that I must become the local authority of Cravenby.

I have discussed this matter with the MEC this morning and it is our feeling that the Johannesburg City Council must continue. If I can reach some agreement on the principle of incorporation, I am quite sure we will be able to resolve the matter. I hope that by the end of the month we will have some agreement on this issue.

I concur that we do not want separate local authorities. We want one local authority in which people have civil rights and direct representation. As far as the amalgamation of the LACs is concerned, I must tell hon members that if the Johannesburg City Council takes over those two areas, it will not be possible to have two separate local affairs committees, whether we like this system or not. Everybody has criticised it. I have pointed out, and I have very clearly worded it, that I have not said that we should get rid of it now. It would be foolish of me to say such a thing when our people have no representation on those management committees. I am saying that it must be phased out. We would be at an even greater disadvantage if we took that stand. If we said that we did not want to come into Parliament, hon members can imagine that they would not have been able to highlight some of the issues which they have raised over the years.

This Parliament has proved that even with the limited powers that we have, we have been able to resolve many issues during the past five years. Therefore participation will be essential in future when we try to resolve the constitutional problems of this country. How else are we going to do it?

I want to tell all of those who criticise the fact that we are participating that there is a Minister and Deputy Minister of Local Government and that whatever they say, they have to participate to ensure progress. Today I am in that position and tomorrow it could be somebody else. I am quite sure that the hon member Mr Abram would have been in my position if he had been more fortunate and he would still have been taking up the matter. I am quite sure that he would do it capably, because he has the knowledge to do so. [Interjections.]

As far as the vacancy in Lenasia South East is concerned, I want to say that it honestly has not been brought to my attention. I know the hon member spoke to me some time ago, but there is nothing on my table with regard to an appointment and I shall make some enquiries. If they want an election, I have no qualms about that. They may certainly have it.

As far as a uniform system of equal remuneration is concerned, I made it clear to Mr Robson when he met me a couple of weeks ago that under no circumstances would we entertain anything that is unequal. One cannot compare the workload of a local affairs committee member and that of a city councillor of a town. In many cases a city councillor of a town has a smaller workload than a member of a management committee because of the imbalances in his area, but sometimes it is the other way round. Therefore we shall have to have one system. It is not of my making and as far as I am concerned Mr Robson, the chairman of the commission, knows my views in that regard and he is now going to submit his final recommendations on that matter.

The last matter he raised was the question of alderman status for members of the local government bodies in the Transvaal and Natal. These are issues which each municipality recognises. I think a major breakthrough has been made by the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare. I am quite sure the point has been taken and I hope that there will be a few other aidermans in this House in the future. [Interjections.]

I agree with the hon member for Springfield that we must have direct representation. He said that the functions state that local government should be uniform. We have no qualms about that. I think he agrees that it should be one local authority with direct representation.

He said that the Department of Agriculture is very small. We all agree that it is a small department.

And still there are two hon Ministers.

I am glad that the hon member raised that matter, because I was coming to it. The Deputy Minister is also the Deputy Minister of Environment Affairs in the Cabinet. His work does not consist only of own affairs matters. He is also the Deputy Minister of Housing and therefore there is no such thing that there is not enough work for two Ministers. I have said before that the ideal towards which all of us are working, is to have one Parliament and one Minister for each portfolio. We do not want three separate Houses. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, will the hon the Minister take a perfectly reasonable question? All that I want to ask him, is whether he can justify retaining a Ministership and an entire Ministry with all the attendant costs for a budget that at the present time is something like R6,3 million. That is the crisp point.

Yes, we are developing Indian agriculture. Let me see, I have some figures here. This year it was R6,3 million but last year it was R12 million because the bulk of the money was paid out in the last financial year. Once the department develops in the way I see it, I am quite sure that there will be the need for a Minister by himself. Whatever the future system will be, one Minister will never be able to do it.

We need one Department of Agriculture!

I agree with the hon member that we need one South Africa and one Ministry.

It is coming!

I will do what I can but in the meantime—while that ideal has not yet been achieved—I will try to further Indian agriculture and whatever it entails so that our people can also benefit. The hon member is quite right in saying that we have not benefitted over the past few years.

With regard to the enquiry about Umzinto, Isipingo and other areas, I want to say that these are enquiries which the Administrator has the right to institute. It is well-known what these enquiries have said. I do not want to add anything because it is the duty of my colleague the Administrator to give the information. In fact, I think the results were made known in the newspapers.

With regard to trained personnel, the Training Board is working towards training personnel in the municipalities. As I have also said when the hon member was not here, video tapes and other training courses are ready for councillors and local affairs committee members. The Training Board already has that.

With regard to the demarcation board of Prospecton and Marburg, I want to say that I was the Minister of Local Government at the time. The Ministers’ Council in support did advise the Administrator and the Minister that Prospecten must be part of Isipingo. The documents went to the Administrator but of course the demarcation board felt otherwise in the end. Naturally the House of Delegates and the Ministers’ Council were disappointed but I hope that we can solve the problem. When the RSCs are established, I hope we can solve the problem of Isipingo.

As far as the money for the Indian farmers are concerned, the hon member asked what amount was paid. This year R6,3 million was allocated for the 1989/90 financial year. However, we have an amount of R30,5 million in agricultural credit. That came about because we received R15 million through the previous Minister from the Agricultural Credit Board’s funds. This is a revolving fund and is an asset to the department. The fund is augmented regularly by a corporation and annually by Parliament.

At the present moment we have R13,5 million in the credit account of which we hope that R11,6 million will be used for the purchase of agricultural land, as I have indicated here. We therefore have the money, and the only thing we have to do is to get land which we are now identifying.

The hon indirectly elected member Mr Abram talked about negotiating a new constitution. He was a little critical, but I want to say to him that we are negotiating a new constitution. We do this every day through our criticism and our representation in the Ministers’ Council and all the other forums in South Africa which are negotiating a new constitution. I want to say to him that it is not something new that has been written here. We are negotiating a new constitution in this country with one Parliament and not three Houses and where we are directly represented.

As far as the powers of the Minister are concerned, I must agree that we as Ministers concerned with local government are limited at the present moment. I do not want to apologise for that. That is how it is, and we are doing our best within the limits of our power to try to resolve some of the problems that face us.

The hon member said that a Minister’s participation in own affairs is like that of a local affairs committee member in a local authority. However, the hon member answered the question himself, when another hon member interjected, by saying that he also took part in a local affairs committee election although a member of Parliament. He is, in fact, in the same system. He actually gave a qualified answer to the argument, saying that his participation in that local affairs committee had given him strength to take up the issues in regard to which his immediate community is disadvantaged. Therefore he has proved the point that participation is more important than being critical this afternoon.

With regard to uniform municipal rating valuation, the co-ordinating council has appointed a committee. That committee is doing excellent work and I wish to say to hon members that with regard to religious institutions it has been submitted that consideration be given to the matter. I think in many cases, such as in Durban itself as well, religious institutions have been exempted from such rates by many authorities. That matter will be taken into account when the uniform municipal rates valuation system is implemented.

As far as income derived from CBDs is concerned, when the RSCs were formed we agreed that the RSCs should be tax collecting councils because all the rates from CBDs and industrial areas should go to the RSCs so that they can be distributed evenly. I have suggested it here and we hope that after September when we come back we shall be able to push for RSCs to get direct representation and, legislative and collecting powers. Then we shall be able to solve many problems. Durban takes all the industrial rates into its coffers, as happens in many other such areas in South Africa.

As far as prior voting is concerned, I want to be honest that some hon members are of the opinion that prior voting should be limited to a shorter time and postal votes should be scrapped.

Special votes, not prior votes.

Well, it is called special or prior voting. I just want to say that we all agree with that opinion.

I think my colleague, the hon member for Southern Natal, and I, agree on the question of agricultural land. I think he is the first one to boldly state that we do not want agricultural land with a racial connotation. It is unfortunate that moves were afoot in the Cabinet, and I am worried that we do not know what is in the air—possibly an election—but land must be free of any restrictions so that the willing buyer and the willing seller can come to an arrangement on the price.

Let me just caution hon members in this House: In a free-market enterprise the small man who wants to live on land so that he can produce crops in order to make a living, will never be able to survive. Therefore, I would believe that for quite a while we will have to buy the land and, as we are doing at Louis Botha Airport, clear the land, cut it up into small parcels, as in Taiwan, West Germany and other countries, and give it to the small farmers in order for them to survive on those pieces of land. We must therefore work on the “boat” basis and be practical because these things do not happen as some of us think they should.

I have taken note of the call for a market at Port Shepstone. I shall certainly ask my department to investigate that issue and see whether a market cannot be established in the near future on the South Coast near Port Shepstone, where we had one before.

As regards the hon member for Phoenix, he took the opportunity to raise the matter of the shortage of land for settling sugar estate workers with me as the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture. This is a very critical problem and I am quite sure the hon the Minister of Housing is taking note of that. We have already met with Tongaat-Hulett to try and resolve this matter. We shall certainly not leave these people to face their problem alone.

The hon member for Tongaat talked about the election in Tongaat. I am not totally happy with what has happened because the juristic vote system is so complicated at the moment, yet elections have to take place. The value has been reduced from R40 000 to R20 000. There have been objections but in the meantime the Administrator’s office is not prepared to change anything because the election date is already set. I can assure the hon member that I have already asked that this matter be looked into, since I think we must have a system which is easy to operate and understandable, and which will enable one to take part in an election without any confusion.

As regards the extra powers that the town clerk has in Tongaat, I have had this complaint before. I am certainly going to address this matter, since we have had complaints and representations from too many quarters about the activities of the town clerk. However, that is a matter for the Administrator. I will certainly discuss this matter with my colleague.

The hon member for Havenside raised the question of the Indian farmers, and he said that they should be members of White co-operatives. I want to say that in some places the cooperatives have open membership, and one has to apply, but in some they do not. Of course this once again has a historical basis, in that we have this problem in South Africa where in the old days one could not even associate in certain places. Today, however, barriers have been broken down. The SA Agricultural Union itself did not want to give membership to Indian farmers. I think this is a process in which we are moving towards breaking down all these barriers, because agriculture should not have any racial tag at all. I made it very clear that we have a role to play in agriculture in trying to contribute to food supply in this country.

The hon member for Reservoir Hills asked how many technicians we have. We have seven, and one of them, as hon members are aware, is on a full-time degree course. We hope that we can increase this amount as there is more and more involvement. Besides the technicians, we have a rural officer, and, of course, two acting assistant directors who have been seconded from the other department. However, we have seven technicians and we shall expand that. In fact, when we look at cattle in due course, we intend to bring in veterinary surgeons as well.

On a point of order, Sir: Is it proper for the hon the Minister, when using the phrase “when we look at cattle”, to look around this House? [Interjections.]

Order! That is not a point of order. The hon the Minister may proceed.

I did not say that, Mr Chairman! There are only hon members here, and I know I did not do that. However, I just want to say that it is true—it only came to my notice recently, and perhaps this goes for the former hon Minister as well—that there are a large number of Indians engaged in cattle farming, either by nominee or on their own. I have started an investigation into this matter, and if we need more land then, through the committee that has been appointed by the State and of which my predecessor was chairman, we shall resolve this issue. I believe that there are quite large-scale cattle farmers, and we can get into other fields as well. Where we cannot plough for sugar cane, we are going to go into sunflower and groundnut production. The technicians are already talking to various farmers in this regard.

I do not want to belabour the point in respect of Marburg. My hon colleague explained this, and I should like to ask the hon member for Reservoir Hills to get a copy of the unrevised Hansard, and should he not be happy about what the hon member has said…

I have seen the acknowledgement of debt. There was a clear undertaking to pay by your company. Your company failed to pay the money. The ratepayers were defrauded.

Mr Chairman, I just want to say that he must look at this, and I think that the matter can then be resolved.

I now turn to the Tongaat Town Board. This House and all of its members are clear in our minds that the Tongaat Town Board should be given the authority to have a multiracial town board. Where people want to live and have a board of their own, I do not know why it is so difficult for us to allow them to do that. That is the starting point in South Africa as far as accommodating all our problems are concerned.

We in this House will pursue this matter even though the elections which are taking place are imperfect. The election is really not a legal election. When the members are appointed the Administrator will appoint them to the board. We hope that this matter will be legalised and that we will have multiracial local authorities in the future.

The hon member for Merebank spoke about direct representation and about the Louis Botha Farmers Development Programme. Here I want to give hon members the assurance that I have asked the department to let me have the figures as to how much it is going to cost us to clear the place and install drainage systems so that we will have a well-planned agricultural area.

The work and the results we are getting from there are encouraging. I think that if we can get various other places in the Republic on this scale—and after the hon the Deputy Minister’s report is tabled in the Ministers’ Council—I am sure we will be able to try that in other areas. What is happening in the Louis Botha Airport area is very encouraging and we hope that we can resolve to clear up the area in the near future, and also have better farming methods.

My colleague the hon the Deputy Minister referred to the Naicker Committee which my predecessor chaired. That report is an interim report which is now being put together by the two men who have been seconded to this department, and it will go to the hon the State President. Thereafter the balance of the investigation in Natal and in the Transvaal will be completed and we hope we will then have a clear picture. We have of course budgeted for about R11,6 million to buy agricultural land. We hope that we can resolve some of the problems of the north.

This budget of R6,3 million is not really one which one can start to criticise as to whether it is enough or not. It is the budget we had to put forward to try and carry us in aiding the farmer and starting to develop Indian agriculture.

I am quite sure—and the indications are very positive—that this will treble or quadruple because there is so much enthusiasm. We already know that the sugar cane farmers have contributed up to 19,8 tons of sugar to the value of R40 million. One of the largest sugar cane farmers on the North Coast is in fact an Indian.

Once we get involved in diversifying to sunflowers and groundnuts, which the department’s technicians are already looking at, I am quite sure we will have a much bigger budget. This is not a budget to criticise; it is a budget which is taking us through to the initial stages. We do of course have R30,5 million in the credit account which we can still use.

The hon member for Camperdown talked about soil conservation. I will compliment him on that because the Cliffdale farmers have shown that with better methods one can avoid having the same kind of problems which others face. The technicians are taking serious note of this when they go around trying to educate the people.

As far as irrigation and water are concerned I am also disappointed. I expected that they would be able to use the water for agriculture and we undertook to look into the issue of piping it. It is certainly receiving my attention and we will see what we can do. Therefore I want to give the hon member the assurance that we have not left this matter unattended to. We are concerned about it.

The devolution of power given to LACs has been explained. I think that was just an error. The devolution of power was to the local authority and we did not give all the powers to them. The right of appeal to the Administrator was retained. This concerned only very minor issues relating to the increase in the percentage. How ever, there has been no devolution of power and I have made that very clear in my report.

Mr Chairman, I would like to correct what I said. I used the wrong words. I meant the delegation of power and not the devolution of power.

We accept that, but I just want to explain to the hon member—I have made it very clear in this document—that no devolution of power will be considered when we are considering a new constitution for South Africa. We would be foolish to do that.

However, as far as delegation is concerned, I have made it very clear to the local affairs committees that the long-term implications must always be considered when one is delegating. Delegation can be done without the Minister’s consent. It is a matter between the Administrator, the local authority and the local affairs committee, in matters such as the naming of roads, looking at the budget, and so on. For me it is a trivial thing, but we must of course guide the local affairs committees in the future.

What is the difference between the two?

I beg your pardon?

Mr Chairman, will the hon the Minister concede that delegation is temporary devolution of power, whereas devolution is on a longer-term, semi-permanent basis?

Yes, Mr Chairman, devolution is permanent, but even so, devolution can still be resolved by legislation. As far as delegation is concerned, it is true that it is a temporary power. That is why I said…

The practical effect is the same.

Well, Mr Chairman, I would say if we apply it in the way we are planning to… We have told the local affairs committees to be very careful.

I just want to go on to the hon member for Rylands. He talked about the Minister being the local authority for Cravenby. I never realised that we could arrive at this system in own affairs where a Minister becomes a local authority for an area. Nobody really realised this. I am the first to admit it and we have included this in the document. We are working towards Cravenby becoming part of a local authority. I did not say that it must become part of Cape Town. I think it must have been misread. We hope that Cravenby can still become part of a local authority in the future, in order to provide all the necessary things it requires.

The hon member for North Coast spoke about La Mercy Airport. I am taking this matter up, because a lease agreement with the Sugar Association and Huletts already exists. The Department of Transport Affairs will only consider it if the lease can be resolved. We have this problem and I hope that we will be able to resolve it.

The hon member Mr Abram talked about Prospecton. I answered that. He sees a uniform grading system as an asset. I just want to say that I think he himself acknowledged—and I will just reiterate—the fact that he took part in the local affairs committee system. That makes no difference to the fact that I and hon members are here in Parliament. In fact, he is part of the same struggle as we are. I say to him that from what I have heard, he also had ambitions of becoming a Minister, so I think there is no difference as far as I am concerned. I accept his criticism, because of the frustration we all experience. There is no need for us to dissolve the ministry, because our agriculture and our local government system must be pushed towards direct representation and all the other things that flow from it.

He says that he is disappointed that I was not advised of certain things. It is not for me to say. I know when I left, my colleague took over from me and when he left, I took over. It is not something for me to answer. The hon member says it is the prerogative of the hon the State President and he should have advised my colleague. We all felt that at least he should have been told, but it is not my duty.

As far as the legal status of the Agricultural Credit Board is concerned, the advice that we had at the time of the formation of the board in 1985 was incorrect, and for that reason the Agricultural Credit Board is not a legal body. We hope to resolve this matter in the near future. We wanted to pass a Bill in Parliament. If such a Bill is not passed during this session, we will use the other forums in the meantime to give assistance to our farmers.

Lastly, in respect of the hon member for Stanger, I want to say to him that we will definitely be cautious about the system of local government. He has been in the forefront of our fight to have direct representation on one local authority. We understand each other.

Secondly, about smallholdings for Indian farmers, it is my feeling also that the subdivision of farming land should be looked at and we should be able to provide for the smaller farmer in the future.

In conclusion, may I again have the pleasure of thanking all hon members and the hon the Deputy Minister for their contributions. In the short time that the hon the Deputy Minister and I have worked together since I became the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture, we have tried to do what we can. I thank my predecessor for the work that he did. I think all of us are trying to do what we can to bring Indian agriculture to the point where it needs to be. With regard to local government we are trying to achieve the necessary system, which involves representation for everybody.

I also thank the officials who normally do not get credit, and lastly Mr Wronsley, the Director-General of the department during the time I knew him. I wish him well in the new position he has been promoted to. It is sad that he is going away at a time when we are trying to get back on our feet after the James Commission enquiry. However, one cannot keep a man from being promoted and I therefore wish him well.

Debate concluded.

Decision on Votes and Schedule:

On Vote No 1,

Division demanded.

Declarations of Vote:

Mr Chairman, we are totally opposed to the entire concept of own affairs. After five years it has become clear that there is no place for own affairs in society. For that reason the majority of us on this side of the House are not prepared to support the Vote. We believe that by supporting it, we would be further entrenching the concept of own affairs, and that would be contrary to the will of the broad spectrum of the general public. They expect us as members of Parliament not to support this concept. We would be failing in our duty if we were to approve this Vote, and for this reason we are opposed to it and we shall vote against it.

Mr Chairman, I understand that the opposition is based on the fact that this is an own affairs Vote and that in the more than four years of our participation in the tricameral system not much has been achieved. Whilst there is some merit in the argument, we must understand that those who have been responsible for retarding the progress are those who were in office and in control of this House prior to our being on this side of the House and taking over control. We have taken over control of this House and we have given the community the assurance that we want to have clean administration.

Within the short time that the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council has been in control of the House every effort has been made to address the problems that affect our community from the socio-economic and also the political points of view. Therefore I believe that to reject the Vote would be absurd as the initiative has been taken to address the problems.

Mr Chairman, I do not agree at all with the hon member for Stanger, as indeed I do not agree with him politically in many instances. The fact of the matter is that we have consistently, ever since we have come here, made the point in this House that despite the fact that this tricameral institution is based and was conceived on the 4:2:1 ratio and everything is based on the 4:2:1 ratio, when it comes to the allocation of funds, the 4:2:1 ratio is not followed.

Our point is simply this: We, this House, this administration and the Indian community, have consistently been bamboozled and shortchanged by the powers that be and that allocate funds for the different budgets. We have been short-changed consistently every year. We wish to oppose this budget, because we would like it to be known that this state of affairs cannot endure. In a sense we are censuring the hon the Minister of the Budget because he has not been able to provide sufficient funds to carry on the work that is necessary for the upliftment of a disadvantaged community.

I want to take the point that was made by the hon member Mr Abram a little further. He said that he wished to oppose the budget because this own affairs concept has not been able to produce the kind of effect that was envisaged. The hon member for Stanger countered that by saying that his party was not entirely responsible for this state of affairs, and that there was another party that was, in fact, in control of this House for a larger percentage of the time. Now, that is completely beside the point.

Our opposition to the budget is based on principle. We say that the own affairs concept must be done away with completely. In order to show that we mean what we say, we say that we reject this budget entirely.

The House divided:

AYES—18: Akoob, A S; Bandulalla, M; Bhana, R; Chetty, K; Collakoppen, S; Dookie, B; Jumuna, N; Khan, N E; Moodley, K; Moodliar, C N; Moolla, Y; Pachai, S; Pillay, A K; Ramduth, K; Razak, A S; Reddy, J N; Seedat, Y I; Thaver, M.

Tellers: Bandulalla, M; Jumuna, N.

NOES—16: Abram, S; Dasoo, I C; Govender, M; Hurbans, A G; lyman, J V; Khan, A; Khan, F M; Lambat, A E; Nadasen, P C; Naicker, S V; Nowbath, R S; Padayachy, M S; Pillay, C; Poovalingam, P T; Rajab, M; Shah, M S.

Tellers: Govender, M; Nadasen, P C.

Vote agreed to.

On Vote No 2,

Division demanded.

Declarations of Vote:

Mr Chairman, the concept of own affairs with regard to agriculture is totally unacceptable. We have repeatedly argued this over the years. Food production should have no racial connotations. When one visits the market place one cannot distinguish between the products of people of colour or Whites. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members must allow the hon member to make his declaration. I appeal to hon members to converse quietly.

That shows the extent of their sincerity. I am being serious. A separate Department of Agriculture to look after own affairs in unnecessary and untenable. The same applies to local affairs. The hon the Minister of Local Government is a king without a kingdom.

He is having too many affairs. [Interjections.]

There are four local authorities in Natal and by his own admission the power lies with the Administrator. The hon the Minister cannot intervene in the affairs of those local authorities or administer them. Why must we then have a Minister of Local Government? On those grounds we oppose the Vote.

Mr Chairman, yet again it is a pity that this Vote incorporates three departments, namely local government, housing and agriculture.

I shall start with the one I mentioned last. There cannot be separate agriculture for the different race groups. Agriculture is agriculture and remains agriculture. The growing of food and crops can never be differentiated according to race. We believe that agriculture should be a single all-embracing department in the country, with a national strategy for agriculture.

I should also like to say something about local government.

†I think I will say it in English for the benefit of the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture. As far as we are concerned, we believe that it is a ministry without any powers whatsoever, irrespective of what the hon the Minister has to say about my participation there. I made it quite clear to him why I had participated.

We believe that there must be direct participation for all the citizens of this country who live within local government areas. Every citizen should have the right to vote and to be voted for.

On a common voters’ roll.

Yes, on a common voters’ roll. There is no compromise as far as that is concerned.

*To support that specific Vote would mean that one would be supporting the entire principle of separate local authorities. Irrespective of the speech of the hon the Minister in which he said quite a number of things, I believe that it was merely rhetoric and that that administration is not really serious about giving effect to his arguments that there must be local authorities which are not based on race or colour.

As regards housing we say that there should be more funds for housing. We also believe that this administration does not have a national plan to address housing. Recently they have not succeeded in submitting such a national plan to us. In his speech the hon the Minister of Housing did not succeed either in telling us what his strategy was to help to provide housing at reasonable prices and rentals.

The hon the Minister of Housing also said that he wanted to introduce market-orientated rentals. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I want to say that what is happening here this afternoon is only irresponsible behaviour. [Interjections.] If hon members want to be responsible, I do not think this is how they should go about conducting the affairs of the community.

In principle I cannot but disagree with the hon member Mr Abram. We do not want to pressurise one another and we do not want to quarrel with one another. Why do we have to do that? [Interjections.] All these hon members are planning to come back to this apartheid House next year. They are all working in their constituencies for the election. [Interjections.]

If this Vote, this House and this system is so detestable to hon members, why are they here? Where are their principles? They want to play politics, but this is not the way. [Interjections.]

When one talks of housing policies, norms and standards, these are national matters. The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council who is the Minister of Housing does not unilaterally propose and establish housing norms in this country. All the Ministers concerned with housing in the country meet together and establish the housing norms.

As far as agriculture is concerned, it should be open to all the race groups. I have said that before. Did hon members not hear me when I spoke of dharti mata? What they say is irresponsible. How do we advance with the games that the hon members are playing? They are nothing but political games played in an irresponsible manner. [Interjections.] We have been here for four years. Why have they never before in the past opposed budget Votes? Why did they not do that? Why do they come with it now at the tail-end? [Interjections.]

When they were in Government hon members never said anything. Why did the hon member Mr Abram never propose this in the past when he was sitting on this side of the House? What kind of hypocrisy is this? [Interjections.] I detest hypocrisy! These are the acts of hypocrites and I make no bones about it! [Interjections.] These are acts of absolute hypocrisy! [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Is it in order for a man who is a proven hypocrite to call others hypocrites?

Order!

That hon member wants his pound of flesh! His problem is that he is upset because he did not get his pound of flesh!

Order!

I apologise, Mr Chairman.

Order! The hon the Deputy Minister’s time has expired. The division bells will ring…

[Inaudible.]

Do not fight, man. Go and fight outside if you want to fight, do not come and fight here! If you want to fight, go outside!

Order! Will the hon the Deputy Minister please withdraw the word hypocrite.

It was not the hon the Deputy Minister who said that.

Mr Chairman, I did not call anybody a hypocrite.

Order! The hon member for Reservoir Hills called the hon the Deputy Minister a hypocrite. Will he please withdraw that?

Mr Chairman, I merely gave him tit for tat…

Order! The hon member must withdraw it without an explanation.

Mr Chairman, I withdraw it.

The House divided:

AYES—19: Akoob, A S; Bandulalla, M; Bhana, R; Chetty, K; Collakoppen, S; Dookie, B; Jumuna, N; Khan, N E; Manikkam, E J; Moodley, K; Moodliar, C N; Moolla, Y; Pachai, S; Pillay, A K; Ramduth, K; Razak, A S; Reddy, J N; Seedat, Y I; Thaver, M.

Tellers: Bandulalla, M; Jumuna, N.

NOES—16: Abram, S; Dasoo, I C; Govender, M; Hurbans, A G; lyman, J V; Khan, A; Khan, F M; Lambat, A E; Nadasen, P C; Naicker, S V; Nowbath, R S; Padayachy, M S; Pillay, C; Poovalingam, P T; Rajab, M; Shah, M S.

Tellers: Govender, M; Nadasen, P C.

Vote agreed to.

On Vote No 3,

Division demanded.

Declarations of Vote.

Mr Chairman, the reason why we object to this particular Vote is the fact that the hon the Minister of Education has been the Minister for the last four years and he made a statement to this House which was completely inconsistent with the facts.

We established beyond any doubt whatsoever that the statement he made to this House was totally incorrect. Instead of apologising to the House for having made a wrong statement, he persisted in his offence. That hon Minister cannot therefore be accorded the respect which is due to any other hon Minister.

The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council called for a full enquiry into the conduct of the Department of Education under the Ministry of the present hon Minister of Education. The Ministers’ Council has had ample opportunity to heed the call of its own leader. That has not been done.

A further consequence is that money is not being wisely spent in the Department of Culture. I say with respect that giving money to Mr T P Naidoo simply because he was a friend of Mr Rajbansi, is not spending money wisely. Whether this particular hon Minister or his previous employer sanctioned it, it is his Ministry which perpetrated that wrong. That money came out of this Vote and we cannot sanction it.

We are also not particularly happy with the manner in which this hon Minister has imposed unnecessary restrictions on the admission of those who are not Indians in terms of legal definition, to schools. He talked about the physical stature. What does that mean? He was not able to give us a decent explanation. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon the Minister, who has been dealing with this portfolio for quite some time, recently misled this House in his reply to a question put by the hon member for Lenasia Central. We demanded his resignation, but he was not prepared to comply with that demand. We believe that the hon the Minister’s salary is covered by this Vote, and we believe he is not worthy of receiving that salary, because we have no confidence in him whatsoever.

In addition he is implementing a policy that we definitely cannot agree with. His policy in this specific portfolio is to give substance to the Central Government’s apartheid ideology on a strictly racial basis. As the hon member for Reservoir Hills said, the hon the Minister made known to us upon what conditions he was prepared to admit children who are not classified as so-called “Indians” to schools under his control. We believe that children are children and that children who live in a specific region in which the schools are controlled by that hon Minister’s department should be admitted to those schools.

Furthermore at this stage there are still 107 teachers who have not been placed in posts by that hon Minister’s department. There are also a number of teachers at this stage whom that department has appointed on a temporary basis. These people do not get the fringe benefits that permanently appointed teachers get. We believe that the hon the Minister has failed in every respect to provide our people with education on a reasonable basis.

In addition that hon Minister’s department is not prepared to supply children in provinces other than Natal with education that has a technical foundation, and for which a need exists. In the metropolises of the Transvaal there is a need for education with a technical foundation.

We believe that this is the only form of protest that we, as a constructive opposition have here. Consequently we are not prepared to agree to this Vote, because the hon the Minister is implementing a policy which is contrary to the interests of our people. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I want to respond very briefly to what hon members have said. I want them to appreciate that when things were really wrong and the hon the Minister was under pressure from one particular individual, when this sort of action ought to have been taken, regrettably it was not taken. Today, when this administration has gone out of its way to meet Tasa and to come to some agreement with them, when six hours were spent by the Ministers’ Council to reach out to Tasa and to resolve the impasse and the differences, I think one should be encouraging this type of thing, rather than discouraging it. Again, I think one should respond positively.

In the recent past previous problems have been addressed. Nine hundred teachers who were temporary staff are now being given permanent employment. These are positive signs. I am not saying that all is well, but when things are done to achieve the very things that hon members from the other side are talking about, one should give encouragement. Also, one should acknowledge that there is in-service training for the poorly qualified teachers. This is being done. M3 teachers are being given the opportunity to upgrade themselves with a view to improving their quality of education for the benefit of the pupils they are teaching.

Whilst these things are being done, we find negative reaction. I believe these are merely election gimmicks and I do not think the community will be deceived by it. If we are so sincere about not agreeing with the concept of own affairs, those who are sincere should not make themselves available and stand in the elections.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order…

They should not participate. That is a matter of conviction.

Order! No points of order can be taken during declarations of vote.

If we have the courage of our convictions and we are opposed to the concept of own affairs, I challenge hon members on the other side not to make themselves available as candidates, otherwise they will again land themselves in an own affairs situation.

Mr Chairman…

Order! Independents are not allowed to make declarations of vote. Only members of parties are allowed to make declarations of vote. That is a rule.

The House divided:

AYES—19: Akoob, A S; Bandulalla, M; Bhana, R; Chetty, K; Collakoppen, S; Dookie, B; Jumuna, N; Khan, N E; Manikkam, E J; Moodley, K; Moodliar, C N; Moolla, Y; Pachai, S; Pillay, A K; Ramduth, K; Razak, A S; Reddy, J N; Seedat, Y I; Thaver, M.

Tellers: Bandulalla, M; Jumuna, N.

NOES—16: Abram, S; Dasoo, I C; Govender, M; Hurbans, A G; lyman, J V; Khan, A; Khan, F M; Lambat, A E; Nadasen, P C; Naicker, S V; Nowbath, R S; Padayachy, M S; Pillay, C; Poovalingam, P T; Rajab, M; Shah, M S.

Tellers: Govender, M; Nadasen, P C.

Vote agreed to.

On Vote No 4,

Division demanded.

Declarations of Vote:

Mr Chairman, I want to make it quite clear that the only reason for our opposing this particular Vote is that we consider that the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare was 100% right when he condemned the establishment of a separate Ministry of Health and when he condemned completely the fragmentation of health services and the demarcation of health services for the Indian community as an own affair. That hon Minister said that both verbally and in his report. He cannot escape the effect and the consequences of his own words.

I think the whole House is of the view that it is a complete distortion of the meaning of the words “health services” to say that health services could ever be made an own affair, more particularly when the Indian community is spread over various parts of the country. It is absolutely nonsensical. We go through this contortion of jugglery, that it is declared an own affair, and it is then seemingly under the control of this hon Minister. The hon the Minister then appoints White agencies or so-called multiracial agencies with White officials as his agents. It is absolutely nonsensical.

We believe that all the money which is being wasted on administrative costs, salaries and so on, in respect of this rejected system of apartheid in health, should be added to the Welfare Vote. That money should be used to increase the assistance given to crippled persons, aged people, sick people, old age pensioners and others who are more deserving of that money. The Ministry wastes that money.

I am not saying that the hon the Minister is a bad man. I am not saying that he has ever misled this House. I have no evidence that he has ever misled this House. I am sure that he will not deny that he himself has condemned the system of own affairs in health.

It is therefore impossible for us to say: “Let us give more money”. We have tried over the last four years to persuade the Central Government to mend their ways, but they are bent on their evil ways. They must now understand that this House is not prepared to put up with this nonsense any longer.

Mr Chairman, my party opposes this particular Vote, because I am aware that the Department of Health Services and Welfare under the control of the hon the Minister is presently negotiating to take over the R K Khan Hospital, as well as the Northdale Hospital, and turn them into an own affair concept. We totally oppose that.

No, no, no!

That is what has been said at the recent sitting of the Extended Provincial Committee Meeting in Pietermaritzburg. We have no parity as far as pensions for the Indian community are concerned. We are still on a lower level as far as Whites are concerned. The hon the Minister has failed us as far as parity is concerned.

However, the prime reason for my opposing this Vote is that I want to publicly challenge the hon the Minister to a debate in Lenasia with regard to the Lenasia Hospital. I want to discuss the constitution of the board of that hospital. The hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare has asked for certain documents from me. I have given them to him. He did not have the courtesy to reply to me. He chose to reply to me via the news media.

This afternoon I want to challenge the hon the Minister to a public debate in Lenasia with regard to the Lenasia Hospital, how that board was constituted and on whose recommendation. According to the hon the Minister’s reply, he asked for nominations from myself, the hon member for North-Western Transvaal and a ministerial representative. Each of us submitted six names. Somehow the hon the Minister submitted 26 names to the Transvaal Provincial Administration. How he got those 26 names and from whose thumb he sucked them, I do not know.

Why is a political office bearer appointed—he is not elected—and given the prerogative to nominate persons? I believe that that person has tremendous influence with regard to the Lenasia Hospital Board. He can influence the appointment of personnel to that board, as well. For these reasons I cannot support the hon the Minister’s Vote.

We from this side of the House oppose it because of the disparity in pensions which I have mentioned earlier. There is no parity, and until there is parity we shall not support it.

Mr Chairman, during the Extended Committee on Provincial Affairs in Natal…

Speak English!

No, that hon Minister understands Afrikaans. He understands me very well.

I understand the hon member very well. Please go on.

During that meeting the MEC in charge of hospital services informed us that the province was presently negotiating with the hon the Minister’s department with regard to the take-over of the Northdale Hospital and the R K Khan Hospital as own affairs hospitals.

Hospitalisation is an expensive business today. Expensive fees have to be paid. There is going to come a time when only affluent people will be able to afford hospitalisation. I have no hesitation in saying that poor people are going to battle. There are many poor people and average salaried people at present who do not belong to medical funds. If they become sick, they find it extremely difficult to be hospitalised.

The second issue is that of parity with regard to pensions. In our view we have still made no progress with regard to this issue, after five years. When a White person, a Black or a Coloured goes and buys a loaf of bread, they all pay the same price for it. Unfortunately, that fact is not reflected in the pensions. Our elderly people are not really being treated right, because they do not even have enough money to live on. Society owes them this.

Furthermore, we also want to say that the fact that there are 16 or 17 Ministries of Health in this country, is a waste of the taxpayer’s money. We are creating dunghills upon which certain cocks want to crow. We are of the opinion that there ought to be a single Ministry of Health and that there should be a national scheme in terms of which health services ought to be provided to the general public free of charge. So far this administration, which is presently in control of hospitals, has not implemented such a policy, and for that reason we cannot support this Vote.

I want to tell the hon the Minister that this has nothing to do with him personally. He is being forced to implement a policy—I know that in his heart he does not believe that the policy is right—which is radically wrong. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member Mr Abram says that there are too many Ministers and I would just like to know whether he knew that there were too many Ministers at the time when he was aspiring for a position in the Ministry on this side of the House. Now he feels that there are too many Ministers.

Do not talk nonsense! You are used to it!

He himself wanted to be a Minister on this side of the House. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member must be allowed to make his declaration of vote.

There is so much inconsistency on the other side of the House that I do not understand them. I want to refer particularly to the DP. They openly supported the general affairs Budget Vote on Health Services but in this House they do not support the own affairs Vote.

I would like to ask the hon members if they are aware of the fact—they supported the general affairs Budget Vote—that those ambulances that are run by them do not pick up the Black people. [Interjections.] I want to know whether they are aware of this fact. Yet they go on to support the general affairs Budget Vote. I would have expected hon members on the other side to be more sensible by supporting this budget Vote, because I think the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare must be highly commended for the improvements that have been made thus far.

There has been a general improvement in pension benefits. We have now almost reached parity and that is the greatest achievement that has been made by the hon the Minister. [Interjections.]

Several health clinics have opened in recent years and we are now reaping the benefits of that. At one time there were no psychiatric clinics for the Indian community. Today we are proud to say that our psychiatric clinics are running very smoothly and that we have several facilities other than that.

[Inaudible.]

Rehabilitation was an appeal based on humanity.

On a point of order…

Order! No points of order can be taken during a declaration of vote. [Interjections.] The hon member may take it after the declaration.

Mr Chairman, rehabilitation centres were non-existent among the Indian community. Today we are proud to say that owing to the efforts of the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare in this House several rehabilitation centres have been opened. This is, in fact, bringing a great amount of relief to the Indian community.

We want to take this opportunity to congratulate the hon Ministers of Health Services and Welfare for the role that they have played in getting the maximum benefit for our Indian community over the years. In my opinion they can play a much greater role if they continue consistently in the manner that they have done up to now. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: When the hon member for Havenside referred to psychiatric clinics, the hon member for Springfield, by way of interjection, impugned the dignity of the hon member by suggesting that he ought to be committed to a psychiatric clinic.

Order! Did the hon member say that?

Of course I said it.

He should go there.

Yes, he should go there.

Order! I want the hon member to withdraw that.

Mr Chairman, then he must not go there.

He need not stay there. [Interjections.]

The House divided:

AYES—19: Akoob, A S; Bandulalla, M; Bhana, R; Chetty, K; Collakoppen, S; Dookie, B; Jumuna, N; Khan, N E; Manikkam, E J; Moodley, K; Moodliar, C N; Moolla, Y; Pachai, S; Pillay, A K; Ramduth, K; Razak, A S; Reddy, J N; Seedat, Y I; Thaver, M.

Tellers: Bandulalla, M; Jumuna, N.

NOES—16: Abram, S; Dasoo, I C; Govender, M; Hurbans, A G; lyman, J V; Khan, A; Khan, F M; Lambat, A E; Nadasen, P C; Naicker, S V; Nowbath, R S; Padayachy, M S; Pillay, C; Poovalingam, P T; Rajab, M; Shah, MS.

Tellers: Govender, M; Nadasen, P C.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 5, agreed to.

Schedule agreed to.