House of Assembly: Vol13 - TUESDAY 25 APRIL 1989
The sign * indicates a translation. The sign † where it is used later in the same interpellation, indicates the original language.
General Affairs:
asked the Minister of Economic Affairs and Technology:
Whether he will set out the Government’s policy on the use of washing and toilet facilities in respect of employees of different race groups who find themselves in the same work situation in mines and industries?
B798E.INT
Mr Chairman, the Government’s policy with regard to the use of washing and toilet facilities by employees of different race groups in mines and industries has always been and still is very clear. Until the Mines and Works Amendment Act—Act No 38 of 1987—came into operation on 8 July 1988, the regulations provided that sufficient and suitable washing and toilet facilities should be provided separately at each mine and in each industry. In other words, the Government prescribed to the employers by means of legislation what facilities they should provide for their employees.
Hon members will remember that the Wiehahn Commission recommended in Part VI of its report, which dealt with labour legislation—inter alia that the definition of “scheduled person” be replaced by the term “competent person”. This recommendation of the Wiehahn Commission was accepted by the Government, which meant that all discriminating measures on the grounds of race or colour, inter alia in the mining industry, should be removed from legislation.
The amended regulations, which were implemented on 8 July 1988, provide with regard to washing and toilet facilities that the manager of a mine or industry should provide the necessary facilities after consultation with individual employee organisations regarding the needs and preferences of their members, and with due consideration for the members’ physical, moral and social welfare.
Therefore you see, Sir, that instead of prescribing to the industry with regard to the use of these facilities, in keeping with the Government’s accepted policy, it is left to the employees and employer organisations to negotiate and come to an agreement with regard to these matters. I am sure that the various organisations are quite capable of negotiating on behalf of their members and securing what is best for them.
†From what I have said, it is clear that the regulations were amended so as to comply with Government policy on this issue, that is to say, to move away from statutory prescription to the principle of laying down the framework for negotiation between the parties which are directly involved in practice.
Government has therefore demonstrated its faith in the ability of the industry to negotiate and reach agreement on matters which concern employers and employees and which should be handled on that level.
In conclusion I must point out that as the validity of certain regulations is at present the subject of pending court proceedings I cannot understandably comment on the legality of these regulations.
Mr Chairman, I am pleased to hear that the hon the Deputy Minister says that he still stands by the policy which he laid down for works.
I want to refer again briefly to that. No change or disruption of practices may take place without negotiation—I want to repeat this—without negotiation with workers or without their approval. No worker may be forced to share facilities with people from other population groups; therefore it may not be expected of him to accept the sharing of facilities against his will.
I want to state very clearly that although it is the Government’s policy to ensure that its policy is implemented, this is not being done. The hon the Deputy Minister now wants to hide behind a court case in order to avoid the issue. I want to make it very clear today that nothing is being done at the moment to protect the White worker in South Africa in his own White area. Whites are forced to share facilities. One can visit the Department of Mineral and Energy Affairs or one can visit the Department of Manpower, and one will see that everyone is shying away from that legislation. No one wants to take action in that regard.
Only in Carletonville!
It is easy to say that the employer and the employee must reach an agreement, but what happens if the employer and the employee are unable to reach an agreement and a deadlock is reached? We have the case of Ergo where 79 White workers signed their names as proof that they did not want to share toilet facilities and cloakroom facilities with people from other population groups. To date nothing has been done about the matter. This dispute regarding this problem, in which White employees are being forced to in fact make use of these toilets and cloakrooms, is already a year old.
I want to make an appeal to the Government today to please enforce its policy which it drew up and by which it stands formally, and not to do what is being done in other places, namely simply to say that legislation exists.
I want to go further by telling the hon the Minister that if there are problems with regard to the legislation, he should come to this Parliament and draw up new legislation which will give him the power to implement regulations whereby the White worker will be protected and not humiliated by having to share toilet and cloakroom facilities with people from other population groups.
I would like to ask the NP members who are now making such a fuss, whether they would be prepared to share their facilities which they have in their homes with people from other population groups or with their domestic servants and farm workers. Not one of them would do that. Why must the White worker in South Africa be humiliated in that way? [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, the CP’s ugly face of racial prejudice is revealed by this question and by the fact that they are sufficiently concerned about toilet segregation to elevate it to the subject of a parliamentary interpellation. [Interjections.] Surely Sir, outside South Africa it is only a Monty Python who would regard such a subject to be worthwhile to raise as a public issue.
To wish to avoid ordinary human contact in the use of washing and toilet facilities must surely rank as one of the profoundest insults towards another human being. This question implies that skin colour is a form of contagion. This is precisely the kind of attitude that has alienated White South Africans from the rest of the civilised world. Moreover, such naked racism is automatically offensive to the majority of humanity who are not of White Caucasian descent.
It is, however, not just the CP which stands revealed on this subject here today. The legislation requiring separate toilet facilities on a racial basis has been the responsibility of the NP down the years. The answer given by the hon the Deputy Minister today does not solve the problem of the legislative requirements of the Shops and Offices Act and it does not resolve the issue of what happens in the mines and in the work situation. He cannot duck behind regulations. [Interjections.] They cannot have it both ways and they cannot duck the issue. They must set out the situation in legislation and then stick to it. They should not leave it up to the local people to try to resolve.
On the other hand, the DP says that we should scrap these petty and offensive provisions in our law. Let us follow the example of most enlightened businesses which have already taken the step of scrapping these provisions. They simply ignored the law in practice. Let South Africans go forward on the basis of a shared humanity.
Mr Chairman, I take it that the hon member for Constantia has clearly laid down his party’s policy, namely that they want the law to entrench the fact that everybody must have integrated amenities. [Interjections.]
In this particular case the Government has decided in its regulations that while we lay down the framework for negotiation, it is up to the employer and the employees to negotiate on these matters which we in these benches consider to be of a rather personal nature. [Interjections.] I would like to refer to the hon member for Carletonville. [Interjections.]
Order! If hon members of the DP deem fit to keep on shouting like this, I shall have to ask all of them to leave the Chamber, and I do not want to do that. The hon the Deputy Minister may continue.
The hon member for Carletonville asked what happened when an employer refused to negotiate, and he referred to Ergo. The workers at Ergo did refer this matter to the Mining Commission and I have a copy of a letter from Ergo here today. It reads as follows:
Essentially, our White employees have been consulted on possible alterations to the design features of the new C-band group change house and on the main C-band change house.
Mr Chairman, I do not have time to read the entire letter. However, I want to say to that hon member that the situation at Ergo between management and the employees’ association has been resolved without the Government intervening. That is what this Government believes in. We believe that these matters which concern the people at the workface should be decided between management and employees.
I would like that hon member to state here very clearly—he still has a minute or two of speaking time—what the CP’s policy is in regard to this particular issue. What do they want? [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, I want to tell the hon members of the DP that not even the Sullivan Code refers categorically to toilet facilities. [Interjections.] It states the following:
[Interjections.] I want to tell the hon member for Constantia that on behalf of the Whites of South Africa we are asking for privacy with regard to such sensitive matters as these, and to label that as racism, shows that the hon member is completely out of touch with the feeling of the people in South Africa. [Interjections.]
†The CP’s question to the hon the Deputy Minister, if I may be allowed to address him … [Interjections.]
Order!
… is what the Government will do if there is a situation where the employer and the employee cannot come to an arrangement. What does the Government do in a situation like that?
*It is not only a question of their refusing to negotiate. It is a question of an impasse being reached between the two parties. We are very pleased to hear that the problem at Ergo has been solved, but he says that this was done without the State intervening. [Interjections.]
Order! Will the hon members for Cape Town Gardens and Greytown kindly limit their interjections? The hon member for Brakpan may continue.
The hon the Deputy Minister said that the problem was solved without State intervention. However, it was intervention by the State which finally precipitated a solution. The hon the Deputy Minister himself quoted what the Mining Engineer had said in his letter to him. Surely that was after I had personally sent submissions to the department and the State Mining Engineer. After that the State machinery came into play, and brought about a solution. What is the NP’s policy? Are they hiding behind a court ruling as they did in the Govender case, or are they going to state their standpoint with regard to this matter clearly? [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, I just want to refer quickly to the hon member who said that we were bringing discrimination to Parliament. This is a place where laws are made, and the CP will bring the matter up here and talk about it.
The hon the Deputy Minister did not mention in his reply whether or not he would share his facilities with people from other population groups. [Interjections.] I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to tell the Whites clearly where he stands, and where shared facilities exist, he must put the matter right, because I want to put it as follows to the hon the Deputy Minister. When the CP comes to power, we will not allow such things. We will ensure that this White worker comes into his own.
I just want to tell the hon the Deputy Minister that it is his department’s duty to implement regulations which are on the Statute Book and not to attempt to avoid them.
Mr Chairman, the hon member for Brakpan asked what the Government will do when workers and employers cannot come to an agreement. [Interjections.] The regulations are very clear. They shall negotiate and reach a consensus. Where they cannot, the employees can ask the Government Mining Engineer to investigate, and they can even come to my office, which indeed they have done on occasion.
I wish to say to that hon member that in 1988 there were 15 complaints in this regard, including Ergo. I answered a question of the hon member for Carletonville earlier this year when Ergo was still outstanding but, through negotiation, every one of these complaints has been resolved. We in these benches believe that workers and employers can solve these problems. We do not believe that we have to legislate for these things as the CP does. [Interjections.]
The hon member for Carletonville asked where the Government stands. I have stated where we stand. We do not believe that the Government, the State, should dictate to companies and unions as to what they are to do in matters of this sort. We believe that this matter can easily be resolved between the people concerned. It is not for the Government to intervene in these matters, and unlike the DP, we do not believe that we should enforce either integration or segregation upon one side or the other. We believe that this is something that people should sort out for themselves. We do not believe in forced integration as the DP does on matters of this sort, and neither do we believe that we should enforce segregation as the hon members of the CP believe. If the CP is honest and it searches its heart, it will find that its members are politicising this matter with the labour unions because they are pursuing their own political objectives and plans for a racist, discriminatory type of government in South Africa. This is the sort of thing that the Official Opposition …
Order! I think that most hon members in this House have now participated in this discussion! The time has expired for the first interpellation. We shall now continue with the second interpellation.
Debate concluded.
asked the Minister of Transport Affairs:
Whether the Government will consider investigating the advisability of retaining the system of toll roads; if not, why not?
B802E.INT
Mr Chairman, this interpellation has to do with toll roads. My reply is as follows.
In the long-term economic interests of South Africa toll roads are here to stay. An adequate road system is a prerequisite for a healthy economy in South Africa. By 1983 it was evident that the funding of national roads was not adequate to attend to the proper maintenance and, upgrading of existing roads and the provision of new facilities. Recognising the probability of such a gloomy position, the Government was already investigating toll roads in the late 1970s. A parliamentary select committee, after hearing all evidence, unanimously accepted and recommended the introduction of toll roads in the Republic of South Africa. The approach of user-charging has been adopted by Government as part of a broader policy aimed at an eventually more equitable taxation structure. The National Roads Act was therefore amended in 1983 to permit toll roads.
As a result, four State toll roads have been opened to traffic and have proved a success, but they are still part of State expenditure as tolls collected pay for only about 37% of the capital invested.
In looking at privatisation it was soon evident that due to the high interest rate and the relatively low traffic volume on these roads, they were not viable on their own as private enterprises. Therefore in order to solve this problem, the State was faced with the choice of a direct cash input, which was not available, or the preferred answer, namely a contribution of existing roads to the projects concerned, thereby solving the viability problem.
In addition, the State is relieved of the burden of maintaining these roads for 25 years. Furthermore it receives them back in good condition at the end of the time plus the new roads constructed by the companies.
This solution to the problem of financial viability has led us into difficulties with local communities affected by the strategy. This, the tolling of local communities, is our main difficulty especially in regard to commuters on existing lengths of road. I am at present looking at this problem to see what can be done in liaison with the two companies concerned. The Government is always ready to reinvestigate and, where possible, to adjust the mechanism for achieving efficient road privatisation. To some extent this is an ongoing process aimed at making a success of the venture.
Mr Chairman, I am not even half persuaded. I wish one had about half an hour to touch on some of the concepts that the hon the Minister raised. He simply did not make sense.
Of all the cons pulled by this Government on the unsuspecting public, the toll road one is perhaps the most blatant and they therefore, without shame, call the extortionist the Tolcon company. It is they who are extorting the money from the public.
The concept of tolls is, of course, as old as the hills. One pays to get up the cableway and, in the early days, Bain and others made mountain passes and there were tolls on them. It is therefore not a new concept. It has been used on many occasions.
When the concept was introduced into this Parliament by the previous Minister of Transport Affairs, however, the whole debate revolved around four issues. Firstly, toll roads should be new projects of a special nature. Secondly, there had to be reasonable alternative routes. Thirdly, it was said and reiterated by the Minister that the system was intended to make transport more market-related, in other words that the user should pay. I distinctly remember somebody referring to the poor old lady in Nylstroom and asking why she should have to pay a fuel levy to fund fancy roads around the urban areas. Fourthly, the Minister actually admitted that he could not get his Cabinet to raise the fuel levy to what was necessary to maintain the national road network, let alone add to it. This meant, in fact, that the Government had put roads, especially national roads, at a level of priority from which they could never surface to get a slice of the cake. Either roads are neeessary or they are not. It is fallacious to say that if the Government absolves itself from the responsibility, the private sector can take it over. There is but one pot of money in South Africa, and the resources, whether they be allocated by the State or by the private sector, are still allocated along a particular line of priorities.
All of those reasons that the Government raised at the time are now being thrown overboard. Firstly, existing roads where there is no decent alternative, for instance the Mooi River road, are tolled. Secondly, these are roads that have already been in existence for a long time. They are the roads that have the highest volume of traffic anyway, which means that they already contribute more to the kitty through the fuel levies than any other road on the system. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, I want to ask the hon the Minister whether he is aware of the R5,5 million that the Natal Provincial Administration recently—this was a few months ago—pumped into the Mooi River Toll Plaza.
The CP issued repeated warnings that the NP was rushing into privatisation like a bull at a gate. Toll roads are a striking example of this. The NP tried to sell a privatised tollroad system to the country’s people with promises that such a system would relieve the financial burden on the taxpayers who were not direct users of roads. Better and more roads were presented to the transport industry and the public as the envisaged benefits of privatised toll roads.
What is the position at the moment, however? No toll road in South Africa has been privatised. The mere erection of toll-gates on certain existing roads has already led to so many problems that it has obviously frightened the Government to the extent that the authorising legislation for privatising toll roads has been shelved, at least temporarily, and I hope permanently. The toll consortia will now operate the toll roads as agents for the Government. In effect that is what is happening at present.
An umbrella body consisting of town engineers on the East Rand warned the Government or the Department of Transport years ago that toll roads were nothing but an instrument that would cause the East Rand to bleed to death.
They did not reach this decision lightly. A thorough study by the engineers of the East Rand’s municipalities was made five or six years ago, and problem areas in the toll road system, especially with regard to alternative routes were pointed out. They also demonstrated, on the basis of evidence given by overseas transport bodies that toll roads in Europe were in disfavour. I want to read to hon members what was reported about one of the hon Deputy Ministers:
[Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, after listening to these two hon members, it is very clear to me that they had nothing to say about the merit of this matter and that they had no contribution to make. They are obsessed by politics, and tried to politicise this whole business. That was the only thing they did.
The hon member for Greytown said, for example, “It is an extortion of money by the companies from the public.” That is the biggest load of nonsense under the sun. There is an alternative road for anyone who does not want to use the toll road.
Have you ever used it?
Yes, and we can forget about that. Let me rather say that to hon members if they want to know what the state of the alternative road is. There is a court case with regard to the Mooi River question, and because that matter is sub judice, I cannot really go into it in detail. If the hon member wants to know the condition of that alternative road, however, I want to invite him to read the court documents that are at his disposal to see what condition that alternative road is in and whether or not it is a good, reasonable road. The hon member is talking absolute nonsense if he says there is no reasonable road.
The hon member said an undertaking had been given here that only new roads would be tolled. That is not true. Where did the hon member get that from? Once again, the recommendation made by the select committee that investigated this issue is on record. No such thing exists, and the hon member simply grasped something from the air and then came and presented it here.
The question of the levy he mentioned … [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, firstly, I want to say to the hon Minister that even a member of his own Government, the hon the Deputy Minister of Environment Affairs, asked for the toll road to be boycotted on the basis that the charges were excessive. I am talking of the Mooi River toll road. His Government cannot even stand together on this point.
Our party does not believe in the principle of toll roads. It is the Government’s responsibility to provide a reasonable and adequate network of roads on which people can travel. Traditionally these roads, built in the past, have been financed from petrol levies, a subject that the hon the Minister must still address. Petrol levies were used to build roads so the motorists have already paid for those roads. They are now being asked to pay all over again. The motorist is in fact still being levied and those levies are now going to a central Treasury to get the Government out of the financial mess that it has got us into.
It is a selective tax on motorists. It is very unfair indeed. Previously I have described this as highway robbery and I stick to that—it is highway robbery.
One only has to refer again to the debacle that happened south of Johannesburg on the N13 where the National Transport Commission decided to erect a tollgate. The Johannesburg City Council—run by the NP—had to make an urgent application to the Supreme Court to stop them from building that tollgate. The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing! His own party and his own people do not know what they are doing.
This hon Minister keeps everybody in the dark because he knows the sort of criticism he is going to get. Therefore he wants to keep it dark until the last moment. He still has not, for example, announced what he is going to do about the new projected Soweto toll. We do not know what is going to happen. We know that it is going to be something which is going to be unfair to the residents of the area, just as the other toll road south of Johannesburg is unfair to the residents of Ennerdale. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, I should like to ask the hon the Minister further questions about the issue of the levies. The hon the Minister spoke here about user-payment—the user has to pay—but in the meantime they are taking the levy on fuel and are levying funds to an extent that is more than sufficient to pay for roads. We must simply forget about the poor woman in Nylstroom; she has to pay, because the money is going into the black hole of the taxation fund. In my opinion it is no wonder that the woman from Nylstroom is voting for the CP.
Mr Chairman, I merely want to say something about the fuel levies. The Government decided that all those levies would be part of the central Treasury, because all the sectors of the national economy must compete for that money on an equal basis. There would be no point in having the best roads in the world if we had no homes, schools, clinics or sufficient policemen to protect us. [Interjections.] That is why these things have to compete on an equal basis, and that is why it is important for us to get the private sector, for example, to come and assist us in this case. [Interjections.]
†The hon member for Bryanston made the assumption that the public is now paying for the road for the second time as they have already paid for it. That is not true. One can never completely pay for a road. One pays for that road for as long as that road exists. Therefore his was a completely false argument. [Interjections.]
*The hon member for Middelburg said the East Rand would bleed to death as a result of that privatised toll road. I want to tell the hon member that that is the East Rand’s salvation, because when vehicles are stuck in a traffic jam for hours, the East Rand will bleed to death. The hon member did not give that enough thought.
It would have been easiest, when Parliament rejected this legislation, simply to go back to the companies and say we could not do business. That would have been irresponsible, however, because in the long term this privatisation of toll roads is an excellent way for this country to keep its main arteries to the industrial centres, business centres and tourist centres open … [Time expired.]
Debate concluded.
†Indicates translated version.
For oral reply:
General Affairs:
asked the Minister of Law and Order:
- (1) Whether it is standard practice for members of the South African Police to cover the heads of suspects during interrogation; if so, (a) who authorized this practice and (b) (i) when and (ii) subject to what regulations or controls is it allowed; if not,
- (2) whether he has taken any action against any members of the Police as a result of their following such practices; if not, why not; if so, (a) what action and (b) against whom?
B618E
- (1) No.
- (a) and (b) Fall away.
- (2) No. I refer the hon member to my reply to oral question 7 of 18 April 1989.
- (a) and (b) Fall away.
Mr Chairman, arising out of the hon the Minister’s reply, is he aware of the comments made from the Bench that this is common practice indeed? Is he not aware of that?
Mr Chairman, I am aware of the fact and that is the reason why I have mentioned it in my reply today.
asked the Minister of Law and Order:
- (1) Whether, with reference to his reply to Question No 4 on 14 March 1989, his attention has been drawn to a civil suit instituted against a certain person, whose name has been furnished to the South African Police for the purpose of the Minister’s reply, in which this person was found guilty of assault in the Grahamstown Supreme Court on 6 October 1988; if not, why not; if so,
- (2) whether he has taken any disciplinary action against this person as a result; if not, why not; if so, what action?
B619E
- (1) The court did not try or convict the policeman concerned on a charge of assault. The plaintiff was granted compensation because on a preponderance of probabilities she had been prejudiced.
- (2) Disciplinary action was considered, but was decided against for the following reasons, namely:
- — that the police official was acquitted by a criminal court because, on the merits of the evidence, his guilt could not be proved beyond reasonable doubt;
- — that the rules of evidence that are applicable in a disciplinary hearing are the same as those that apply in a criminal case.
However, steps are being taken in terms of section 34 of the Exchequer and Audit Act, 1975 (Act 66 of 1975) to recover the expenditure of the State from the member concerned.
asked the Minister of Law and Order:†
- (1) Whether the South African Police has investigated a shooting incident at Lutzville on or about 10 February 1989 during which certain persons, whose names have been furnished to the Police for the purpose of the Minister’s reply, were killed and wounded; if so, what are the relevant details;
- (2) whether this investigation has been completed; if not, why not; if so, what are the findings of the investigation;
- (3) whether any members of the Police were temporarily relieved of their posts as a result of this shooting incident; if not, why not; if so, what are the names and/or ranks of these members?
B629E
(1) to (3)
Yes. One charge of murder and two charges of attempted murder are being investigated. One member of the Force has been suspended.
Once the investigation has been completed, the docket will be submitted to the Attorney-General for his decision. No particulars regarding the matter are therefore furnished at this stage, as it may anticipate the outcome of the investigation.
asked the Minister of Education and Development Aid:
- (1) Whether, prior to the municipal elections of October 1988, his Department was involved in the distribution of T-shirts and caps; if so, (a) by whom were these articles provided, (b) why where they distributed and (c) what was the total cost involved;
- (2) whether tenders were invited for these articles; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
B682E
- (1) No. This applies to both Departments.
- (2) Falls away.
asked the Minister of Communications:
- (1) Whether he will furnish information on the tapping of telephone conversations; if not, why not; if so,
- (2) whether all Government Departments are required to obtain his permission for the tapping of telephone conversations; if not. under what circumstances are exceptions made?
B683E
- (1) No, because it will not be in the public interest to furnish the information. Section 118A of the Post Office Act prescribes the circumstances under which and the procedures applicable to the interception of telephone conversations. The hon member is given the assurance that the relative statutory provisions are at all times being strictly complied with and that no application for a telephone interception is granted for any other reason than for the maintenance of the security of the Republic;
- (2) falls away.
asked the Minister of Economic Affairs and Technology:
Whether contracts entered into for the purchase of crude oil and the prices paid for such oil are verified; if so, (a) by whom, (b) which Department or body handles the payments for such purchases, (c) who is responsible for inspecting the books of the SFF Association and (d) (i) who audits these crude-oil purchase transactions, (ii) by whom are these auditors appointed and (iii) on how many occasions were new auditors appointed over the past 10 years]
B687E
Yes.
- (a) All prices and contracts are investigated and negotiated by the Board of Directors of CEF (Pty) Ltd. After the Minister of Economic Affairs and Technology has approved any contract, all accounting transactions are audited by the Auditor-General in accordance to the Central Energy Act, 1977 (Act 38 of 1977).
- (b) SFF Association.
- (c) The Auditor-General.
- (d)
- (i) The Auditor-General.
- (ii) The Auditor-General.
- (iii) According to the Auditor-general no new appointments have been made over the past 10 years.
asked the Minister of Finance:
- (1) Whether any possible contraventions in respect of the capitalization of inspection fees by building societies have been brought to his notice recently; if so, what are the relevant details;
- (2) whether he intends taking any action in this regard to protect the home-buyer; if not, why not; if so, (a) what action and (b) when?
B688E
- (1) Yes; The Registrar of Financial Institutions became aware of the capitalisation of the inspection fees levied by banks and building societies with regard to mortgage bonds, arising from complaints received. Such fees were capitalised as part of the main debt, and finance costs were levied thereon over the term of the loan.
- (2) Representations were received from financial institutions to legalise such practices. The Government is currently considering the representations.
asked the Minister for Administration and Privatisation:
Whether dividends earned from sums of money invested locally in Eskom are in certain circumstances paid out outside South Africa; if so, in what circumstances?
B689E
Eskom does not pay dividends on any investments because Eksom does not have a share capital. Interest is payable on investments in Eskom stock. Interest payments are made outside of South Africa to non-residents and emigrants in accordance with the Exchange Control Regulations.
asked the Minister of Defence:
- (1) Whether the South African Defence Force has conducted an inquiry into the alleged shooting of two policemen by Defence Force troops in Soweto in December 1988; if so,
- (2) whether this inquiry has been completed; if not, (a) why not and (b) when is it anticipated that it will be completed; if so, (i) when and (ii) what were the findings;
- (3) whether any precautions have been or are to be taken to avoid similar occurrences in the future; if so, what precautions?
B694E
(1), (2) and (3) The hon member is referred to my reply in this House to question number 13 of 14 February 1989.
asked the Minister of Justice:
With reference to his reply to Question No 50 of 28 February 1989, (a) why is the person in question, whose name has been furnished to the Minister’s Department for the purpose of his reply, being accorded special treatment, (b) (i) what is the cost to the State of this special treatment and (ii) in respect of what period is this figure given and (c) what is the name of this person?
B711E
Mr Chairman, actually I should table the reply to this question in view of the fact that the hon member, Mr Derby-Lewis, is not present, in spite of the particular trouble one takes to give him his reply. I will nevertheless, seeing I have taken so much trouble, proceed to read the reply. [Interjections.]
- (a) The treatment and circumstances of such persons are the result of the consideration of a variety of factors such as the period of sentence already served, prognosis, age, state of health, re-integration into the community and even sometimes other considerations which as in the past, I am prepared to share with Opposition Leadership on a personal and confidential basis and under given circumstances.
- (b) (i) (ii) Unfortunately a specific figure cannot be furnished as the costelement involved in the circumstances and treatment of a specific person forms a varying portion of a great whole. When referring to the unit cost per prisoner (namely R13,28 per prisoner per day) it only implies that the total budget has been divided by the average prison population.
- (c) The same as furnished by the hon member.
asked the Minister of Information, Broadcasting Services and the Film Industry:
Whether his Department is planning to produce a promotional film on South Africa and its peoples for use on overseas television circuits; if not, why not; if so, (a) when and (b) what are the relevant details?
B718E
No. This function is the mandate of Foreign Affairs:
- (a) Not applicable.
- (b) Not applicable.
—Foreign Affairs. [Reply standing over.]
asked the Minister of Law and Order:†
- (1) With reference to his reply to Question No 1 on 11 April 1989 in regard to the investigation into the disappearance of Mr Stanza Bopape from police custody on 12 June 1988, what are the names of the members of the South African Police who accompanied the detainee in a police vehicle at the time of his alleged disappearance;
- (2) whether he will allow the attorneys representing the family of the detainee who has disappeared to question the members concerned; if not, why not?
B736E
(1) and (2)
Members of the Force who investigate terror-related crimes, perform an extremely important and dangerous task. It is not in their interest or the interest of the public to make known their identity. Such a step will drastically increase the risk to their occupation, their lives and the lives of their families and impede the performance of their task considerably.
However, the attorneys concerned are at liberty to contact the Deputy Chief of the Detective Branch, Major-General Joubert, who has been specially appointed to co-ordinate the investigation.
—Foreign Affairs. [Reply standing over.]
—Foreign Affairs. [Reply standing over.]
asked the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning:
Whether he received any representations regarding the election held in Lingelethu West in October 1988; if so, (a) from whom and (b) what was (i) the purport of and (ii) his response to each such representation?
B741E
This matter vests in the Administrator of the Cape Province and he has furnished the following reply:
Yes.
- (a) Mr Thomas Ngwane
Mr Prince Gobingca
Mr I Gwiliza - (b)
- (i) A request to discuss inter alia the general municipal election was received on 27 June 1988 from Mr Ngwane prior to the elections and referred to the Administrator.
Mr Gobingca wrote to the Administrator on 31 October 1988 and queried the demarcation of Lingelethu West as one ward for the recent election.
Mr Gwiliza wrote to the Minister of Foreign Affairs (letter undated) as well as the Minister of National Education (letter dated 23 March 1989) and his letters were referred to the Administrator via the Department of Development Planning. It touches on various subjects but mainly queries the demarcation of Lingelethu West as one ward for the recent election. - (ii) With reference to the query of Mr Ngwane he and other group leaders/ candidates in Lingelethu West (Khayelitsha) were supplied with all relevant information regarding the election.
Mr Gobingca was informed that it was considered desirable to hold the election in Lingelethu West as a newly established local authority simultaneously with the general municipal elections on 26 October 1988 and that it was not possible to demarcate the area into wards in the time available.
Mr Gwiliza’s enquiries were only just received and a reply will be forwarded to him shortly. As far as his query regarding Lingelethu West as one ward is concerned the reaction is the same as was conveyed to Mr Gobingca and Mr Gwiliza were part of a group of leaders from the area who had a discussion with the Executive Director: Community Services prior to the election where this matter was explained and accepted as such by those present.
As the election in Lingelethu West has now been finalised the area can only be demarcated into wards at the next general election or at a byelection of all the members of the Town Committee.
- (i) A request to discuss inter alia the general municipal election was received on 27 June 1988 from Mr Ngwane prior to the elections and referred to the Administrator.
asked the Minister of Education and Development Aid:
- (1) Whether any progress has been made in the implementation of the recommendations of the Natal/KwaZulu Planning Council on squatters and informal settlements in Natal; if not, why not; if so, (a) what action has been taken in this regard and (b) when was it taken;
- (2) whether the R1,2 billion proposed by the Planning Council for development has been made available; if not, why not; if so, when was it made available;
- (3) whether he will make a statement on the matter?
B742E
- (1) Yes.
- (a) Projects for the provision of sites for emergency settlement in the Inanda area as well as at Dassenhoek and Edendale have been identified for priority implementation and 10 000 sites will become available.
- (b) During the period July 1988 up to the end of March 1989.
- (2) No, the proposals provide for the spending of this amount over a period of five years and R87,5 million has been made available for the 1989/90 financial year for projects for which the South African Development Trust and KwaZulu are responsible. The total cost must also partly be covered by way of loans to KwaZulu by the Development Bank of Southern Africa.
- (3) No.
Mr Chairman, arising out of the hon the Minister’s reply, does the hon the Minister’s department, in connection with the Planning Council’s recommendations, negotiate with or come into contact with the Natal Provincial Administration which appears to have no knowledge of the details that have just been supplied?
Mr Chairman, there is a coordinating committee appointed by the Government consisting of representatives of my department, the Department of Constitutional Development and Planning, the Natal Provincial Administration, the KwaZulu Government and some other State institutions as well. The Natal Provincial Administration is a member of that co-ordinating committee.
asked the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning:
- (1) Whether the various provincial administrations made application to the National Housing Commission for loan finance for Black housing in the 1989-90 financial year; if not, why not; if so, what amount was (a) applied for and (b) granted;
- (2) whether he will make a statement on the matter?
B743E
- (1) Applications are normally submitted by local authorities but where a local authority has not yet been established loans emanate from the respective provincial governments. Loan applications are not necessarily submitted for financing during a specific financial year.
- (a) Applications for the financing of infrastructural development in respect of townships which have thusfar been approved by the National Housing Commission awaiting financing, amount to R1 223 102 608,00 (one thousand two hundred twenty three million, 102 thousand 608 rand).
- (b) An amount of R416 million is available in the National Housing Fund to finance ongoing projects as well as a number of new projects which have not as yet been commenced with, on a priority basis.
- (2) No.
asked the Minister of Agriculture:
- (1) Whether the use of a certain substance, the name of which has been furnished to the Minister’s Department for the purpose of his reply, is permitted in the apple industry in South Africa; if so, (a) what is the name of this substance and (b) for what purpose is it being used;
- (2) whether a bar on its use is being considered; if not, why not?
B744E
- (1) The substance “Alar” is registered in terms of the Fertilizers, Farm Feeds, Agricultural Remedies and Stock Remedies Act, 1947 (Act 36 of 1947). It is mostly used in the ornamental plant industry to stimulate vegetative growth and flower induction. The use thereof in the apple industry is however effectively prevented by the Deciduous Fruit Board. If the substance were to be used in the apple industry, the Board would refuse to receive the fruit for marketing.
- (2) Deregistration of the substance is under consideration.
asked the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning:
Whether any (a) traffic control is being exercised and (b) traffic education is being provided within Black townships in the Western Cape; if so, (i) who provides these services, (ii) what is the nature of the services provided in each of these townships and (iii) what was the total cost of these services during the latest specified period of 12 months for which information is available; if not, (aa) why not, (bb) who is responsible for providing these services and (cc) when is it anticipated that they will be introduced?
B745E
This matter vests in the Administrator of the Cape Province and he has furnished the following reply:
- (a) Yes, in certain residential areas to a limited degree.
- (b) Yes.
- (i) Municipal police and South African Police.
- (ii) The regulation and control of road traffic to a limited degree.
- (iii) Information is not available in view of the fact that the total cost of these services is part of other maintenance expenditure. Rest of question falls away.
asked the Minister of Education and Development Aid:
Whether any employee of his Department (a) called the South African Police or (b) requested them to take action at or near Fezeka Secondary School on the morning of 3 March 1989; if so, (i) why, (ii) who, (iii) what requests were made and (iv) with what result?
B746E
- (a) No.
- (b) Yes.
- (i) To prevent pupils from gathering illegally outside the school area and disrupting classes.
- (ii) The Assistant Director as instructed by the Deputy Director.
- (iii) The South African Police was requested not to allow the buses to depart for a non-departmental sports meeting which was organised for a normal school day and to request pupils to return to their classes.
- (iv) Certain organising students were dissatisfied, but the Department was congratulated by parents on its firm stance against the disruption of classes.
Mr Chairman, arising out of the reply of the hon the Deputy Minister may I ask him in the light of the fact that there is no compulsory education for Black children—at those schools anyway—in terms of what regulations was the action of the department taken asking the police to stop the buses? [Interjections.]
asked the Minister of Finance:
- (1) Whether the State Tender Board has received requests from a member of Parliament in relation to procedures followed in regard to the leasing of certain properties in Port Elizabeth; if so, on what date;
- (2) whether he has responded to these requests; if not, why not?
B749E
- (1) Yes, a letter was received on 21 November 1988.
- (2) Receipt of the letter was acknowledged on 29 November 1988. The matter was referred to the Administration: House of Representatives for comment. The matter was followed up regularly by the Chief Directorate: Procurement Administration. The particular member of Parliament made several telephonic enquiries regarding progress and he was informed of the position. A reply has been received from the Administration: House of Representatives on 11 April 1989 and the relevant member of Parliament will be furnished with a detailed reply in due course.
The sign * indicates a translation. The sign † used subsequently in the same speech, indicates the original language.
Own Affairs:
asked the Minister of Education and Culture:
- (1) Whether any complaints have been lodged with his Department against the principal of the Hans Moore High School in connection with a management board election for this school on 18 April 1989; if so,
- (2) whether he will make a statement on the matter?
B804E.INT
Mr Chairman, if I have to judge by the question which was posed, I strongly consider addressing a request that the interpellation be tabled so that no further time is wasted.
You do not know the answer!
The question of the hon member deals with whether or not any complaints have been lodged with his Department against the principal of the Hans Moore High School in connection with a management board election on 18 April 1989. The reply is yes. A written complaint, supported by four similar complaints, was submitted to the Transvaal Education Department on 17 April 1989. The complaints follow a circular sent to the parents by the principal on 12 April 1989 in which it was mentioned that it would be in the best interests of the school if six members of the management board, who were eligible for re-election and whose names were mentioned in the circular, were re-elected to the management board, and an appeal was made to parents to elect any other two members who had the school’s interests at heart.
The substance of the complaints is that the principal ostensibly acted unethically by interceding for specific candidates and that the request prejudiced the other candidates. Furthermore an objection was lodged against the fact that four of those on whose behalf representations had been made, were not parents of the school.
However, the latter is not contrary to the regulations because only four of the eight elected members are required to be parents of the school. Immediately on receipt of the complaints, the Director of Education requested the principal to rectify the matter by means of a further circular to the parents. It was done the same day. In this letter the particular paragraph in the original circular was cancelled in its entirety.
The principal also apologised and stated that parents were free to nominate anyone who qualified. He also indicated that he and his personnel would co-operate wholeheartedly with whoever was elected.
This behaviour proves to me that my department will not in any way allow a principal or teacher to participate unprofessionally or unethically in canvassing for specific candidates in management board elections.
In respect of the hon member for Brits’ written request to me dated 14 April 1989, I concede that he was right. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, I thank the hon the Minister for the reply he gave me this afternoon. The fact of the matter, however, is that the hon the Minister—I do not blame him—is unaware of all the events concerning the recent management board election at the school in question.
We on this side of the House have noted with appreciation the conduct of the Director of Education in the Transvaal, namely that he instructed the principal to withdraw the propaganda he had made for six people, including the hon member for Benoni, among the parent community. Subsequently the principal cancelled the particular paragraph, as the hon the Minister said, in his second circular.
Apparently the hon the Minister is not aware that other irregularities in regard to that management board election also took place at that particular school. The principal, for example, was informed by the department before the school holidays that a management board election would take place on 18 April. However, the principal failed to notify the parents of the election within the prescribed period. His notification was only sent to the parents on 12 April—only six days prior to the election.
In reality that management board election, seen in the light of the omission of the principal, is null and void. On the afternoon of 18 April, shortly after the school closed, two teachers at the school, a certain Mr Bester and a certain Mr Fourie, with the help of prefects, confiscated from the pupils certain pamphlets, that were relevant to the management board election and had been handed out to them outside the school grounds. I specifically draw attention to the fact that this occurred outside the school grounds.
I was informed that the principal was fully aware of this conduct of the two teachers, and it also met with his approval. This took place after the Director of Education in the Transvaal had intervened and requested the principal to cancel the paragraph in question.
Get rid of that principal!
Mr Chairman, I now request the hon the Minister, on the grounds of that principal’s irregular propaganda to parents in the management board election, on the grounds of his use of the official letterhead of the school for this propaganda, on the grounds of his omission to inform the parents in time of the election in accordance with the regulations, and on the grounds of his alleged support for the conduct of Messrs Fourie and Bester, to appoint a commission of inquiry into the events at this school. [Interjections.]
I believe that it is in the interest of education that finality be reached regarding the occurrences at that school.
Mr Chairman, after listening to the hon the Minister’s statement and after hearing the hon member for Brits, and, previous to that, reading in the Patriot the entire story of this episode, which, hon members of the NP might be interested to learn, was published under the heading “Kies NP-LP vra skoolhoof”, I come to the conclusion that this is the type of propaganda the CP are trying to make in connection with this issue.
There can be no doubt that there is a high degree of sensitivity in the parent community concerning the powers and responsibilities of a school principal. It appears to be fairly clear that this principal has overstepped the mark by in fact promoting—without naming any political party or without stating that the hon member for Benoni was a member of Parliament—the candidature of certain persons.
For that one must criticise him but I certainly do not believe that the kind of remarks that the hon CP members are making, which are to drag the entire administration of this school into party politics, are not doing the school or the department or even the CP any good!
I must make it quite clear that we have criticised in this House in the past, and will continue to criticise, the politicisation of school committees. However, we must also accept that school administration must be based on decisions made by parents and on the clean administration that goes on and the principal because he serves on the management council and has a role to play. He does have a role in this regard.
I believe that the kind of circular that was sent out, although it can be criticised, by naming the particular persons and naming probable characteristics the school was looking for, can in no way be such as to lead to the kind of Commission of Inquiry that the CP is asking for. I believe that they have gone too far and that they, more than anybody else and certainly more than the school principal, are guilty of provocating CP-propaganda at that school. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, allow me to pick up where I left off a while ago. I wanted to say that with regard to Mr Gerber’s written request to me, dated 14 April, to take action, I agree with him that the particular principal made a bona fide mistake … [Interjections.] … even though his intention was only to support the candidature of people who in the past had given the school good service. That is why action was taken and why the principal apologised to the parents.
I wish to thank the hon member for Pinetown for his clear view of the whole matter. [Interjections.] The hon member spoke on the basis of his previous knowledge of being a teacher and knowing the kind of thing that happens at a school. The hon member has put his finger on the sensitive spot and I want to ask the hon members whether they have any idea of how sensitive this sphere is in which principals and particularly teachers find themselves in these times in which we are now living.
There is extreme pressure on principals and teachers and I want to agree with the hon member for Pinetown that it is high time that all of us, as politicians, not only demonstrated our appreciation for the exceptional work done by principals and teachers under difficult circumstances, but that we also did so in practice.
I want to tell the hon member for Brits that I really take it amiss of him for having submitted this matter as an interpellation! [Interjections.] The fact of the matter—we make no apology for this—is that this was a bona fide human mistake made by a particular principal. [Interjections.] By subjecting this matter to an interpellation, the CP is guilty once again of quite simply trying to engage in petty party politics in respect of education as well. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, naturally we on this side of the House were very upset about the circular which was sent out by the principal of the Hans Moore High School in Benoni, especially with regard to the intercession that was made for the specific candidates for the controlling body of that school. As could be expected, we received various inquiries and complaints about this and parents expressed their dissatisfaction and discontent. It was with a feeling of oppression that one read the following in Die Transvaler:
The matter was apparently rectified by the Director of Education in the Transvaal. In Die Transvaler we also read that he gave the principal instructions to rectify the propaganda he had made for certain persons.
The fact that teachers misused prefects to confiscate notices, which had been handed out outside the schoolgrounds, from the children is strongly condemned. Teachers should not meddle in management board elections.
I should like to inquire from the hon the Minister which action he is planning to take against the teachers. We regard the actions of these two teachers in a very serious light. The CP believes that a Commission of Inquiry should be appointed so that the accusation made against the principal of Hans Moore, that he acted unethically, can be properly tested, as well as the conduct of Messrs Bester and Fourie. If not, we ask the hon the Minister whether they condone it, or should we content ourselves with the saying that goes: Silence is consent.
Order! That might be so, but the hon member’s time has expired. [Interjections.] I now call upon the hon member for Brits.
Mr Chairman, the hon the Minister will remember that a commission of inquiry was appointed last year into the conduct of a principal in Pretoria. Finally it seemed that the complaint against him was concerned with two trifling matters, namely that he had made his school available for a CP function without having the form completed in advance and for allowing a person to come and speak to the pupils at the school without the permission of the department. He was subjected to an investigation which lasted for days.
Is that not strange?
I maintain that the complaints against the principal of the Hans Moore High School are of a far more serious nature. [Interjections.] I repeat my request to the hon the Minister that a commission of inquiry be appointed forthwith into the conduct of the principal. If the hon the Minister does not comply, one could ask whether he is trying to protect his colleague, the hon member for Benoni, in this House. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, after listening to the hon members of the CP, I want to state categorically that the CP proved once again today that they are no friend to the teaching profession and that they have no respect for it. [Interjections.] As a matter of fact I want to say that the CP is the enemy of the teachers in this country. [Interjections.] The fact of the matter is that here is a principal who made a bona fide mistake. [Interjections.]
In other words he can bona fide do as he likes!
Order! The hon member for Brakpan must control himself. The hon the Minister may continue.
That principal made a bona fide mistake and apologised the same day. He did so the very same day! [Interjections.]
I want to ask the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition whether he agrees with the hon member for Witbank, who by means of an interjection—I wrote it down here—shouted: “Get rid of that principal!” I ask the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition whether he agrees with it. [Interjections.] Does he agree with it? [Interjections.] Do you see hon members, one of the hon members of the CP makes an irresponsible interjection and says that we must get rid of a principal who did excellent work, and he did so after the principal had apologised for the bona fide mistake that had he made. Anyone of us could have made the same mistake. [Interjections.]
You are a bona fide mistake!
Order! The hon the Leader of the Official Opposition and the hon member for Brakpan must curtail their interjections. The hon the Minister may proceed.
I want to ask the House and the public to judge. I want to quote to hon members from the first circular that was sent by the principal. [Interjections.] In that he said the following:
He then mentioned the names of the members of the management board, and that was wrong. He then continued:
[Time expired.]
Debate concluded.
†Indicates translated version.
For oral reply:
Own Affairs:
asked the Minister of Education and Culture:
- (1) Whether he or his Department has conducted a survey on parents’ voluntary contributions to trust funds; if not, why not; if so, (a) when and (b) by whom was the survey conducted;
- (2) whether the results of the survey have been made public; if not, why not; if so, when were they made public;
- (3) whether he will make a statement on the matter?
B747E
- (1) No, because in terms of the various education ordinances and regulations the power to control and manage these funds vests in the council of the school concerned,
- (a) and (b) fall away;
- (2) falls away;
- (3) no.
asked the Minister of Education and Culture:
- (1) Whether his Department has devised a policy and/or strategy for the consideration of syllabus or curriculum development; if not, why not; if so, what is this policy or strategy;
- (2) whether the functions of syllabus or curriculum development are to be centralized; if so, for what reason;
- (3) whether he will make a statement on the matter?
B748E
- (1) Yes, syllabus and curriculum development is based on curriculum research and is done on a cyclic basis. This research and the revision and implementation of syllabuses are co-ordinated by the Network Committee for Curriculum Development on which all four provincial education departments have representation and comment is sought from all interested persons and organisations in and outside education. All syllabuses are approved by the Committee of Heads of Education;
- (2) provincial education departments are coresponsible for curriculum development and the core content is mutually decided upon, after which the provincial education departments may give content to these core subject curricula according to their particular needs. Curriculum development in my department, as in other departments, is subject to the policy regarding the norms and standards which the Minister of National Education may determine in respect of syllabuses in accordance with the National Policy for General Education Affairs Act, No 76 of 1984, section 2(1)(d);
- (3) no.
Mr Chairman, arising from the reply of the hon the Minister can he give an indication as to whether it is his department’s intention to set up a central curriculating centre?
At this moment in time, no.
For written reply:
General Affairs:
asked the Minister of Justice:
(a) How many persons under the age of 18 years were serving prison sentences on (i) 30 June 1988 and (ii) 1 January 1989 and (b) in which prisons were these persons serving sentences?
B592E
(a) (i) and (ii) |
|
30 June 1988 |
— 693 |
31 December 1988 |
— 673 |
(b) 30 June 1988
Allandale
Riebeeck West
Voorberg
Barberton
Nelspruit
Baviaanspoort
Louis Trichardt
Nylstroom
Pietersburg
Tzaneen
Bethal
Standerton
Ficksburg
Brandvlei
Caledon
Helderstroom
Durban
George
Mossel Bay
Oudtshoorn
Uniondale
Victoria West
Barkly East
Bethulie
Burgersdorp
Dordrecht
Goedemoed
Zastron
Middelburg (Cape)
Groenpunt
Sasolburg
Vereeniging
Johannesburg
Kandaspunt
Nkandla
Kuruman
Kimberley
Upington
De Aar
Colesberg
Richmond (Cape)
Potchefstroom
Rysmierbult
Bethlehem
Kroonstad
Harrismith
Leeuwkop
Modderbee
Heidelberg
Fort Beaufort
King William’s Town
East London
Queenstown
Stutterheim
Ixopo
Pietermaritzburg
Sevontien
Greytown
Kranskop
Pollsmoor
Grahamstown
Patensie
Port Elizabeth
St Albans
Graaff-Reinet
Pretoria
Robben Island
Bien Donne
Stellenbosch
Victor Verster
Glencoe
Newcastle
Waterval
Mtunzini
Buffeljagsrivier
Robertson
Van Rhynsdorp
Worcester
31 December 1988
Hawequa
Malmesbury
Riebeeck West
Staart van Paardeberg
Barberton
Baviaanspoort
Louis Trichardt
Nylstroom
Pietersburg
Tzaneen
Bethal
Standerton
Ficksburg
Brandvlei
Caledon
Helderstroom
Durban
Beaufort West
George
Knysna
Mossel Bay
Uniondale
Victoria West
Bethulie
Burgersdorp
Goedemoed
Middelburg (Cape)
Groenpunt
Sasolburg
Vereeniging
Johannesburg
Kandaspunt
Douglas
Upington
Klerksdorp
Potchefstroom
Wolmaransstad
Kroonstad
Frankfort
Leeuwkop
Modderbee
Heidelberg
King William’s Town
East London
Queenstown
Bulwer
Pietermaritzburg
Sevontein
Port Shepstone
Pollsmoor
Cradock
Grahamstown
J C Steyn
Patensie
Port Elizabeth
St Albans
Graaff-Reinet
Brits
Pretoria
Voortrekkerhoogte
Walvis Bay
Bien Donne
Newcastle
Waterval
Ladysmith (Natal)
Empangeni
Eshowe
Belfast
Dwarsrivier
Robertson
Swellendam
Van Rhynsdorp
Worcester
Zonderwater
Prisons for Sentenced Juveniles
The Prisons Act, 1959 (Act No 8 of 1959) provides for children and juveniles to be incarcerated in prisons under certain circumstances. This principle is applied world-wide and not only in South Africa. The standard rules for the treatment of prisoners which are subscribed to by South Africa, also incorporate the treatment of juveniles in prisons and lay down certain guidelines which were incorporated in the Prisons Act.
Prisons for sentenced juveniles were put into operation at the Leeuwkop Prison Command during 1986 and at Pollsmoor Prison Command during 1987. It is envisaged to extend this concept to other regions depending on needs and budget realities.
In regions which do not yet have separate prisons for sentenced juvenile prisoners, they are accommodated in separate sections or cells as far as possible, and depending on their needs, the available programmes are also offered to them as far as feasible.
Generally the intention with these programmes is to equip the juvenile for his successful reintegration into the community after release. The following basic guide-lines are followed:
- — The achievement of a certain level of education in order to facilitate adaptation into the community. In other words—acceptable norms and values must be acquired.
- — Education and training as the basis of the programme. Depending on the present level of education, intellectual capabilities of prisoners and the term of sentence it is endeavoured to achieve a specific level of education. The aim is to achieve at least a Std 4 qualification.
- — Meaningful utilization of time which is aimed at positive orientation after release.
- — Maintenance of present social structures to counter-act institutionalization and in so doing prevent recidivism e.g. maintenance and strengthening of family ties.
- — The fulfilment of religious needs.
- — Healthy physical development through physical training and care.
asked the Minister of Justice:
How many sentenced prisoners were transferred to mental institutions in 1988?
B593E
Fifty eight (58). This figure includes four (4) prisoners who were admitted to the hospital prison for psychopaths in terms of Section 30 of the Mental Health Act, 1973 (Act No 18 of 1973) as amended.
asked the Minister of Justice:
- (1) Whether any deaths were reported in South African prisons in 1988; if so, (a) how many prisoners in each race group died of (i) natural and (ii) unnatural causes in that year and (b) what were the main causes of these (i) natural and (ii) unnatural deaths in respect of each race group;
- (2) whether post-mortems were performed on such prisoners; if so, how many in 1988?
B594E
- (1) Yes.
- (a) (i) and (ii)
1 January 1988 to 31 December 1988
Natural |
Unnatural |
|
Black |
88 |
25 |
Coloured |
46 |
9 |
Asian |
2 |
— |
White |
17 |
3 |
Total |
153 |
37 |
(b) (i) |
Natural causes |
Black |
— Heart diseases, Pneumonia and Tuberculosis. |
Coloured |
— Subdural Haemorrhage and Pneumonia. |
Asian |
— Asthma. |
White |
— Heart diseases. |
(ii) |
Unnatural causes |
Black |
— Assault by fellow prisoners and suicide. |
Coloured |
— Assault by fellow prisoners and suicide. |
Asian |
— None. |
White |
— Suicide. |
(2) Yes, in terms of the Inquest Act, 1959 (Act No 58 of 1959) 37 post-mortems were performed in respect of unnatural deaths.
As far as natural deaths are concerned, post-mortems are also conducted when, in the opinion of the medical practitioner involved any uncertainty exists as to the exact cause of death. During 1988 83 such post-mortems were performed.
asked the Minister of Justice:
- (1) Whether any charges of assault were laid by prisoners against prison warders in 1988; if so, how many charges;
- (2) whether departmental inquiries were held into these charges; if not, why not; if so, what were the findings;
- (3) whether any persons were convicted; if so, how many?
B645E
- (1) Yes, a total of 2 009 complaints of alleged assault was received and registered.
- (2) Yes.
The South African Prisons Service regards every complaint of alleged assault on a prisoner by a member of the Prisons Service, no matter how petty, in a very serious light. In terms of the Standing Prisons Service Orders, every complaint of alleged assault is registered in the appropriate register and properly investigated by the Commanding Officer.
Likewise, assault on personnel by prisoners is also not tolerated and offenders are strictly dealt with.
In respect of 1 248 of the complaints of alleged assault on prisoners by members, no substance could be found after thorough investigation to institute charges against any member of the Prisons Service. Of the remaining 761 complaints a total of 315 was referred to the South African Police for further investigation while 311 complaints resulted in departmental hearings in terms of Prisons Regulation 71(1)(hh) read together with Section 53 of the Prisons Act, 1959 (Act No 8 of 1959). The remaining 135 complaints are still being investigated. - (3) The results of the formal charges were as follows:
Trials in terms of Prisons Regulation 71(1)(hh) read together with Section 53 of the Prisons Act:
118 Members were found guilty on 113 charges.
153 Members were found not guilty on 137 charges.
61 Charges involving 78 members are still in the process of finalization.
Complaints investigated by the South African Police:
4 Members were found guilty on 3 charges.
6 Members were found not guilty on 6 charges.
The Attorney-General refused to prosecute in 173 cases involving 180 members.
In 133 cases involving 109 members the outcome of the Police investigation or the Attorney-General’s decision is not yet available.
asked the Minister of Justice:
- (1) Whether any prison warders were (a) killed and (b) seriously injured by prisoners in 1988; if so, (i) how many and (ii) in which prisons;
- (2) whether any prisoners were (a) killed and (b) seriously injured by fellow prisoners in that year; if so, (i) how many and (ii) in which prisons?
B646E
- (1)
- (a) No, no member of the South African Prisons Service was killed by prisoners during 1988.
- (i) and (ii) fall away.
- (b) Yes.
- (i) and (ii)
Twenty-seven (27) members of the South African Prisons Service were seriously injured by prisoners during 1988 at the prisons mentioned below and a further one hundred and sixty two (162) members received medical treatment/consultations for minor injuries sustained as a result of assaults by prisoners;
Allandale
Barberton
Baviaanspoort
Bloemfontein
Brandvlei
Durban
Goedemoed
Grahamstown
Grootvlei
Johannesburg
Kroonstad
Leeuwkop
ModderbeeY
Pietermaritzburg
Pollsmoor
Port Elizabeth
St Albans Waterval Witbank
- (i) and (ii)
- (a) No, no member of the South African Prisons Service was killed by prisoners during 1988.
- (2)
- (a) Yes.
- (i) and (ii)
All deaths in prisons, where a medical practitioner is unable to certify that the prisoner died as a result of natural causes, are dealt with in terms of Section 86 of the Prisons Act, 1959 (Act No 8 of 1959).
During 1988 two (2) prisoners from the Kroonstad Medium B Prison and the Barberton Maximum Prison respectively, were killed by fellowprisoners. Available information indicates that a further seven (7) prisoners who died at the following prisons: Grootvlei, Groenpunt, Pollsmoor, Port Elizabeth and Losperfontein also died presumably as a result of being assaulted by fellow-prisoners. However, these inquests have not yet been finalized.
- (i) and (ii)
- (b) yes.
- (i) and (ii)
- (a) Yes.
The South African Prisons Service regards every complaint of an assault, no matter how petty, in a serious light. Prisoners are daily given the opportunity to lodge any complaints or requests, and preventitive measures, for example the reallocation of sleeping quarters or working places, are instituted should it appear that there is reason to believe that a prisoner is threatened.
In cases of injuries which are related to complaints of alleged assault, a suitable entry is made in a complaints register and/or a register of injuries and in addition to the necessary medical treatment which may be administered or prescribed by the medical officer, a departmental inquiry into the alleged assault is instituted. Where such a complaint is substantiated suitable action is taken in terms of Prisons Regulation 99 in the case of minor assaults, while complaints of serious assault are reported to the South African Police without delay for investigation in order that the legal process may take its normal course.
In total 1 035 prisoners were injured in such a manner as a result of assaults by fellow-prisoners in the following prisons, that they had to be referred to prison hospitals or hospitals outside prisons:
Hawequa Malmesbury Beaufort West
Barberton Medium B
Barberton Medium A
Barberton Male and Female
Caledon
Colesberg
Nelspruit
Baviaanspoort Maximum
Nylstroom
Pietersburg
Ermelo
Geluk
Standerton Medium A
Frankfort
Brandfort
Grootvlei Medium
Generaal J C Steyn
Grootvlei Maximum
Glencoe
Brandvlei Maximum
Brandvlei Medium
Helderstroom Medium
Helderstroom Maximum
De Aar
Durban Female
Durban Medium C
Durban Medium B
Dundee
George Male
Middelburg (Cape) Male
Groenpunt Maximum
Goedemoed Medium B
Groenpunt Medium
Vereeniging Male
Johannesburg Medium C
Johannesburg Female
Johannesburg Medium A
Kandaspunt
Kimberley Male
Upington Male
Klerksdorp Male
Kuruman
Rustenburg Male
Hennenman
Kroonstad Medium A
Kroonstad Medium B
Ventersburg
Virginia Male
Leeuwkop Medium A
Leeuwkop Medium C
Heidelberg Male
East London Medium A
East London Female
Oudtshoorn
Pietermaritzburg Medium A
Sevontein
Somerset East
Pollsmoor Maximum
Pollsmoor Female
Patensie
Piet Retief
St Albans Medium
St Albans Maximum
Swellendam
Brits
Losperfontein
Pretoria Central
Pretoria
Voorberg
Victor Verster Maximum
Victor Verster Medium B
Waterval
Waterval Medium B
Waterval Medium A
Empangeni
Modderbee
Middelburg (Transvaal)
Witbank Male
Buffelsjagsrivier
Dwarsrivier
Warmbokkeveld
Worcester Male
Zonderwater Medium
Zonderwater Open
asked the Minister of Justice:
- (1) Whether any persons sentenced to jail are automatically given any remission of their sentences; if so, what is the nature of this remission;
- (2) whether any categories of prisoners are excluded from receiving such a remission; if so, (a) which categories and (b) why?
B738E
- (1) No. Prisons Regulation 119 furthermore states inter alia that remission of sentence is not a right which a prisoner may legally claim.
- (2) No. Prisons Regulation 119 does, however, make provision for certain offences/ sentences in respect of which no remission of sentence is granted.
- (a) and (b) Fall away.
asked the Minister of Justice:
How many persons under the age of 18 years were awaiting trial in prisons as at 31 December 1988?
B787E
645
Section 29 of the Prisons Act, 1959 (Act No 8 of 1959) stipulates inter alia that a person under the age of eighteen years who is accused of having committed an offence shall, before his conviction, not be detained in a prison unless his detention is necessary and no suitable place of detention mentioned in the Child Care Act is available for his detention. In deciding on the suitability of the place of detention, the nature of the offence with which a person is charged is taken into account as well as age, sex, character etc.
A juvenile who is detained in terms of Section 29 of the Prisons Act, 1959 shall not be permitted to associate with a person over the age of twenty-one years who is in custody, provided that he may be permitted to associate with such a person in custody who has been charged jointly with him, if the head of the prison is of the opinion that such association will not be detrimental to him. Juveniles are also separated with regard to age groups where facilities permit.
Discussions take place regularly between the South African Prisons Service and the local magistrates, prosecutors and the South African Police with a view to keep awaiting-trial juveniles out of prison.
The sign * indicates a translation. The sign †, used subsequently in the same interpellation, indicates the original language.
Own Affairs:
asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:
Whether his Department made representations to the Group Areas Board for consideration at its sitting in Uitenhage on 15 March 1989; if so, what was the purport of these representations?
C81E.INT
Mr Chairman, the reply is yes, the department made representations to the Group Areas Board for consideration at its sitting in Uitenhage on 15 March 1989 and the purport of the representations was as follows: With reference to a report relating to the land requirements for the Brown community in Uitenhage compiled by Metroplan Town Planning Consultants, an additional area of 311 ha, excluding Kamesh, will be required for housing by the year 2010. It was mentioned that if the higher and middle income groups could be accommodated in Kabah then Kamesh could be made available for the lower income groups where the demand is more urgent. The additional 377 ha could account for most of Kabah.
Mr Chairman, the purport of the representations by the Administration: House of Representatives was that the Kabah area be declared a Coloured area. The LP is in charge of own affairs in this House and it is therefore in charge of the Administration: House of Representatives. This Administration is therefore supposed to implement the political policies of the Labour Party. One can assume that this is what is being done. Hon members must bear in mind that the Administration: House of Representatives has asked that an area, which has been occupied by Blacks since the 1920s and which is presently occupied by them, must now be declared a Coloured area. If the Administration: House of Representatives implements the Group Areas Act, it is the LP that must assume the political responsibility for that action.
If the LP is indeed against the Group Areas Act, as it so often proclaims, why then does it allow the Administration to follow a policy which is the complete opposite to that of the LP? As far as the Administration: House of Assembly is concerned, one does not expect that that particular administration should implement the policies of the DP. It implements the policies of the NP, and therefore it is true in this particular case too that the Administration: House of Representatives must implement the policies of the LP. Can one assume that the tail is wagging the dog in this particular instance?
Mr D B Stupart—I hope this is no reflection on his name—who gave evidence at the Group Areas Board hearing on behalf of the Administration: House of Representatives said after the hearing:
The basic question that needs to be answered is whether it is necessary to move thousands of Black people who have occupied this particular area since the 1920s in order to have land for Coloured housing. I wish to warn the LP that this issue is a very emotive one for the Black people of Uitenhage. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, the question that now comes to mind is basically the following. I also come into contact with the implementation of the Group Areas Act every day. I am also confronted with the situation as to whether or not one should make more land available in terms of this Act for the relevant population group that needs the land. Never in any of my representations, however, have I requested that Blacks be moved in terms of the Act so that Coloureds could occupy the land.
The hon the Minister can look up the history in this regard. I have always only caused the Whites who implemented the Group Areas Act to move so that Coloureds could occupy the land. I can mention the following examples: Mansfield which has been renamed Eldorado Park; Eden-park; Standerton and Delmor in Reigerpark. Now the hon gentlemen wants to take land from an established Black community by way of representations addressed to the Group Areas Board by the department. Obviously the Act will be implemented and thousands of people will have to be moved elsewhere.
Can the hon the Minister imagine what conflict that will cause in those communities? Does the hon the Minister realise that that will completely nullify the standpoint of the LP with regard to non-discrimination? Surely that is not the basis on which one must head for the so-called shortterm objective in order to achieve one’s ultimate objective. Why is fallow land that is lying there, undeveloped, not identified and representations addressed in respect of that land in order to obtain land? Why must representations be addressed for people who are established to be moved and for churches and schools to be disrupted? [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, I want to know whether the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council gave notice of the representations that were addressed on 15 March.
Mr Chairman, I call upon the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing to reconsider the representations made by his department. It was in Langa on 21 March 1985 that 19 people were shot by the SAP. The Kabah area is a very emotive issue as far as the Black people are concerned.
The Black people have fought a long struggle against their removal from Kabah. This latest move to have them uprooted from this particular area has caused a great deal of bitterness among the Black people of Uitenhage.
In view of the representations made by the Administration: House of Representatives to the Group Areas Board, a great deal of the blame is now being laid at the door of the LP and in particular at the door of the hon the leader of the LP. [Interjections.] The bulk of Black opinion in Uitenhage has indicated that this is what the situation is and that they will actually blame the LP if that area should be declared a Coloured area.
During the course of 1986, 40 000 Black people were uprooted from that part of Langa. It was indicated by the authorities that the people had moved voluntarily. However, there are indications to the contrary, viz that these people were forcibly moved from that particular area. I want to quote what the particular gentleman, Mr Stupart, who made the representation on behalf of the Administration: House of Representatives, said. I quote from the Eastern Province Herald of 16 March 1989:
[Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, the hon member for Reigerpark built Rabie Ridge to take the Coloured people out of Alexandra and he was asked if he would allow Black people into Rabie Ridge. [Interjections.] I have it here in writing.
Order! Hon members must give the hon the Minister an opportunity to complete his reply.
I have read his letter here. I want him to keep quiet now. I kept quiet when he made his speech. He said that Blacks must be screened for security reasons. [Interjections.] He now admits publicly that Blacks must be screened for security reasons if they move into Rabie Ridge.
Of course.
He has said “of course” for the second time, but now he is standing here on his holy platform, opposing the Group Areas Act.
There are Blacks who are living in Rabie Ridge!
He objected in writing, however. [Interjections.]
Order! The hon member for Reigerpark must give the hon the Minister a chance to speak.
I shall read him the letter. He must not mislead the House.
†We made it quite clear that Black people are living in Coloured areas. They are going to Coloured schools. Indian people are living in Coloured areas. We can prove this. We are opening up our areas. The hon member must not come and stand holy before us in order to gain political advantage. [Interjections.]
Order! The hon member for Reigerpark may have another chance to speak, because there is still time available. The hon member must not carry on in that way, however.
The hon member cannot stand the fact that I did nothing. I have known him for the past 20 years, after all. I know how he operates. He is standing here sanctimoniously and he wants to mislead the House, whereas he is the biggest builder of group areas, and a monument to him was erected in Ennerdale. He has nothing to say now. Group areas are being built.
The hon the Minister must not say I mislead the House. I did not object in any of my letters to him to Blacks living in Rabie Ridge; on the contrary, I approved numerous permits. In my last letter to him I said he should stop writing to me to grant permission to Blacks in terms of the permit system to live in Rabie Ridge, and said that for the sake of the safety of the people and the unrest situation in Alexandra, he should ensure that rioters …
Why must only Blacks …
I did not receive applications from anyone but Blacks and Blacks are living there at the moment. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, I must make it emphatically clear that there are 1 100 families involved in McNaughton. The LP has made emphatic representations to the management committee in Uitenhage, of which I was the chairman then and thereafter, that McNaughton township will remain. There is not a single family that will be uprooted in the process. If the information of the hon member for Schauderville is correct, one has to question where he gets the facts. I would like to remind him that when he was chairman of the management committee he made representations for the extension of a Coloured area, for it to be proclaimed particularly for housing.
He must also bear in mind that he made representations last year with regard to the declaration of a group area in Fairview in Port Elizabeth. I find it really ridiculous that the LP must be blamed for a situation over which it has no control. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, I want to read the letters of the hon member for Reigerpark here. In them he says I must not disclose in public what he says. I should rather do so in committee. [Interjections.] That is what he wrote to me; it is on file. I am pleased we are in Parliament, so that I can debate the matter in public. I am not afraid of him, because I know him. I know how he operates. He rises here with his halo which fits his head so tightly that it gives him a headache. I know him.
You do not know me at all.
I know him as I know the palm of my hand—just as he knows me. The hon member must not think that I will disclose things about him here.
The point is clearly that Blacks and other races are living in Coloured areas. The party allowed people; we do not determine the permit system. We did not establish that system and we do not prohibit the people. Once again I want to ask the hon member why only Blacks in Rabie Ridge must get a security clearance and not other races.
Where are the other applications?
He built his Coloured area, Rabie Ridge, in six months. He has the records. He developed that area most quickly for Coloured people in South Africa. [Interjections.]
We have been talking about Langa, not Rabie Ridge, for some time.
No, those hon members are here in all there hypocrisy. That is the important point I want to make. We made it clear that all races could settle in Coloured areas if they were granted permits by the White Government. [Interjections.] That must not be blamed on me; the facts must be rectified first. [Time expired.]
Debate concluded.
†Indicates translated version.
For oral reply:
Own Affairs:
asked the Minister of Education and Culture:
Whether his Department maintains a computer data system for all statistical information on staff, student and pupil numbers; if not, why not; if so, (a) when was the system finalized, (b) what areas of data are maintained in the system and (c) how often is the information updated?
C79E
Yes.
- (a) 1986.
- (b) All areas stipulated in the South African National Education Policy.
- (c) Once per year.
asked the Minister of Education and Culture:
- (1) Whether cuts have been made in the budgets of universities falling under his Department in respect of the 1989-90 financial year; if so, what cuts;
- (2) whether he will make a statement on the matter?
C80E
- (1) No. The University of the Western Cape which falls under my Department, handles its own budget. The Department merely performs the transfer payment in accordance with a prescribed subsidy formula.
- (2) No.
The sign * indicates a translation. The sign †, used subsequently in the same interpellation, indicates the original language.
Own Affairs:
asked the Minister of the Budget:
Whether any moneys were paid out by his Department as out-of-court settlement costs in regard to the allocation of certain erven in Claudius, Pretoria; if so, (a) what total amount and (b) what are the relevant details?
D87E.INT
Mr Chairman, my department has made no contribution to the out-of-court settlement in the application of Mr A K Abdulla and others versus the Pretoria City Council and others, but the Housing Development Board did pay R300 000. I have obtained the relevant details from the parties involved and with the approval of the hon the Minister of Housing I wish to supply the following details.
Firstly, the former Community Development Board entered into an agreement with the Pretoria City Council whereby the latter undertook to administer Claudius Extension 1 on behalf of the Board. The Laudium Management Committee, acting under delegation, allocated stands to 240 persons in February 1984. This was done in accordance with the waiting list for Laudium and Claudius, using a points system. Full particulars are not available as this was done before the advent of the Administration: House of Delegates.
During August 1984 Mr A K Abdulla and 29 others applied to court for an order setting aside the allocations of erven in Claudius Extension 1. Their application was based on allegations of irregularities against members of the Laudium Management Committee and officials of the Pretoria City Council.
The application was opposed by the Pretoria City Council, the Community Development Board and others. However, during the negotiations the City Council agreed that 19 of the 29 applicants for the court order qualified for the allocation of erven. They were allowed to select from 23 erven which became available as a result of persons to whom erven had been allocated, opting to purchase elsewhere due to the delay arising from the dispute.
To answer the question as to whether gross irregularities in the allocation of erven were committed or not, would mean that the application would have to be heard by the court with a large number of witnesses having to give evidence. This could have resulted in drawn-out procedures spread over years before a decision could be reached. The legal costs would have reached enormous proportions.
Counsel for the applicants advised that he estimated his fees alone would amount to R337 000. Taking cognisance of these factors, it became clear that a settlement would be to the advantage of all parties and in the best interests of this administration.
Subsequently the Housing Development Board—successor to the Community Development Board—resolved that the legal advisers be requested to negotiate a settlement of the dispute and submit proposals to the Board for consideration. This was done on 27 April 1988. The Housing Development Board approved on recommendation of counsel that:
1) The settlement reached between the legal representatives of A K Abdulla and others …
[Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, arising out of the hon the Minister’s reply it becomes very, very clear that as a result of gross irregularities which the Laudium Management Committee was party to at that time, this matter had to go to court. Several parties were aggrieved as a result of the recommendations made by the Laudium Management Committee at that time, the chairman of which was the second respondent in the matter between Mr A K Abdulla and others against the Pretoria City Council and others. It is as a result of the direct negligence and the direct insensitivity of the Laudium Management Committee, under the chairmanship of the hon member for Laudium, that the matter had to go to court.
What was the result of this? The result of this was a wait of four years on the part of members of our community and in four years—taking the inflation rate in building costs and in the building industry into account—it would cost one double what it did then to build the same home today. That has been the contribution by the hon member for Laudium to the welfare of his community.
The hon member for Laudium was further directly involved in these irregularities. I have before me only one of the applications which were contested by the people who took this matter to court.
It is apparent that this particular applicant, who, incidentally, is the brother-in-law of the hon member for Eastern Transvaal, lived all his life in Durban. The company of the hon member for Laudium, E I Abramjee and Sons, stated on 9 January 1984 that this particular applicant had been in its employ as a representative. All the facts in this particular case show very clearly that at no stage was this person employed by the hon member for Laudium or his company, that he had been an insurance representative and had lived in Durban all his life. Secondly, in the application form filled in by this person, he stated that he owned no other property.
I have here in my possession a copy of title deeds and a deed of transfer which was registered in the Deeds Office in terms of which this person owned property in the township of Reservoir Hills. As a result of the direct involvement and the direct negligence of a person who is supposed to hold high office as a member of Parliament and at that time was chairman of the management committee, in whom the community places trust and faith and from whom the community expects good results … [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, what the hon member Mr Abram says is staggering, because it would seem that the firm of Abramjee and Co committed perjury and was also guilty of the perpetration of fraud. That is a very serious state of affairs. I am surprised that the Attorney-General has not investigated the matter, and, if those allegations are true, that he has not prosecuted the persons concerned. It would seem also that the applicant in the case, who apparently held a property while claiming that he did not hold property, committed perjury and fraud. These are serious matters of a criminal nature.
In the case which has been mentioned of various persons versus Abramjee nomine officii, the Pretoria City Council and others, serious allegations were made of grave misconduct having been committed by a gentleman called Mr Abramjee, who is today a member of Parliament. Serious allegations were made, not just of negligence, but of deliberate malfeasance. As far as I am aware, those allegations were never refuted adequately and the case never went to court. Indeed, the case was settled out of court because there was apparently no proper defence to the allegations which were made. It certainly does not matter a fiddlestick whether the Housing Development Board or the Department of the hon the Minister paid. It is the public which paid R300 000 as a result of this alleged dishonesty on the part of a person who was then chairman of the Laudium Management Committee.
This is the allegation: That the chairman of the management committee at that time was deliberately dishonest and that he favoured certain people at the expense of other legitimate applicants for these houses. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, it is absolutely hypothetical—and of all people the hon member for Reservoir Hills, who has legal experience, should know this—to say that a person is alleged to have committed irregularities and then to say that …
Have you read the papers?
I am speaking on the basis of facts. [Interjections.] I did not interrupt the hon member.
To have gone to court and contested the whole issue and to have waited for that judgement was found to be unnecessary in this case. Whether an irregularity was committed or not is not for hon members of this House to presume. By agreement the legal representatives of both sides saw the wisdom of an out-of-court settlement to save the Housing Development Board as well as the coffers of the taxpayers further expenditure. This, in the opinion of both parties, was the best possible solution.
Therefore I cannot accept the contentions of the hon member Mr Abram and the hon member for Reservoir Hills that this was an irregularity, and that it was a proven irregularity. It was not so. It is all very well to come before this House at this stage and say things which are highly political simply because the events in this House have not met the desires of the hon member … [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, the hon the Minister of the Budget is accustomed to performing an egg-dance, of which we have just seen a pathetic performance. The hon the Minister said in this House on 10 February, and I quote his reply to an hon member’s question as to which irregularity it was, from Hansard, col 526:
I want to tell this House that when certain hon members in this House swear to one, one must start doubting them, but when they swear on the holy Koran, then one must disbelieve them. That is a problem here. What I am concerned with is that R300 000 of the taxpayers’ money has been squandered in trying to cover the political backs of so-called allies. That hon Minister owes the community at large an explanation. He was the one who said that certain hon members would be investigated, and what did he do about that investigation? He who has been charged with looking after the funds of the people of this so-called race group in this country was willing to allow this amount to be paid out. He said that the matter would be investigated fully. What has become of that investigation? Hon members on that side of the House do not care two hoots if an hon member has political Aids; as long as it gives them the necessary number of members, they will be prepared to jump into the same bed with him. I challenge that hon Minister in this House to take this matter further, because if he does not, we will most definitely do so. All the facts prove that there was an irregularity and for him to claim that it is hypothetical for us to argue that there was an irregularity, is the biggest load of rubbish I have ever heard from an hon Minister.
Mr Chairman, the House and I have just seen a demonstration of bankruptcy. There was every opportunity in the James Commission to bring this matter forward. Where were the hon members sleeping then? I do not swear by the Koran, neither do I swear by anything else. I accepted the hon member for Laudium’s explanation and when an irregularity was mentioned, I said—and I stand by that—that I was informed about it. I did not make the claim that there was an irregularity. I did not make the allegation in that respect. The hon member must read Hansard properly before he makes such allegations or insinuations against the Minister. I will hold my head high and stand far above the hon members, particularly the hon member Mr Abram, for it is not for me to divulge the doings of the hon member in this House. I can go into it, but all I can say is that there was ample opportunity for the hon member Mr Abram to have come before the James Commission and to have laid the charges before it. I want to assure hon members of this House that all the evidence, consisting of 6 000 pages and more, is with the Attorney-General. If any hon member has any reason to bring any wrongdoings to the attention of the Attorney-General of Natal, he must please do so now and he will see whether he remains standing on his feet. It is not for me to argue on a hollow basis. [Time expired.]
†Indicates translated version.
For oral reply:
Own Affairs:
asked the Minister of Education and Culture:
- (1) What is the policy of his Department in regard to the admission of Black children to Indian schools;
- (2) whether his Department received any applications for Black children to be admitted to Indian schools in 1989; if so, (a) how many Black children were (i) admitted and (ii) refused admission and (b) why were these children refused admission?
D78E
- (1) The character of the school shall not be prejudiced as a result of the admission of any Black pupil;
Preference shall at all times be given to Indian pupils;
Accommodation and other facilities for Black pupils must be available after provision for Indian pupils has been made;
The pupil shall reside within reasonable travelling distance of the school where admission is sought and due account must be taken of the available schooling facilities in the area where the pupil resides;
The medium of instruction shall be any one of the two official languages chosen by the school concerned;
The course to be followed by any Black pupil seeking admission shall be acceptable to the parent of such pupil;
The pupil shall in the opinion of the principal be easily assimilated into the relevant class taking into account physical stature. Principals must also establish whether the pupil is adequately prepared for placement in the correct standard in order to ensure that he/she is not disadvantaged in any way. Should it be considered necessary to retard the pupil, the parents of such pupil must be consulted;
The pupil shall not be more than two years older than the average age of his projective class mates or shall not be above the upper age limit as prescribed by the Handbook for Principals:
No additional staff shall be provided as a result of the admission of any Black pupil; and
Expenditure on Black pupils admitted to any school shall be met from the annual allocations of the school concerned. - (2) Yes
- (a)
- (i) 106
- (ii) 556
- (b) Did not meet prescribed guidelines.
- (a)
Mr Chairman, arising out of the reply of the hon the Minister, I should firstly like to ask which hon Minister of the NP prepared that reply. Secondly, I should like to ask the hon the Minister, when he talks about the character of the school, how he relates that to his party’s proclaimed policy of a non-racial society in South Africa. Thirdly, I should like to ask the hon the Minister to explain for the benefit of this House what he means by physical stature. Does he refer to height, weight, breadth, cephalic indices, frizzy or straight hair or no hair? What are the characteristics that would determine physical stature?
Mr Chairman, the answer to the first question is no.
It sounds like it.
If it sounds like that to the hon member, I just want to say that it does not sound that way to me. These are questions that have to be answered by the administration of my department. When such questions are therefore asked, I have to refer back to the administration. The answers are adequately given to the hon member.
Secondly, yes, I say that the policy of the party is a non-racial one, but it is a long-term policy.
In the meantime you practise racism!
As far as physical stature is concerned, the hon member for Reservoir Hills has answered the question himself.
Which one?
The question of physical stature. If the hon member has any idea about physical stature, he will know that it means that a child must not stand out amongst the rest of the class. One does not have a 10-year-old child in the same classroom as five-year-olds, because the 10-year-old will only stand out amongst them. That child will have a psychological effect on the rest of the children and the situation will also have a psychological effect on himself. It therefore has to do with both age and physical appearance.
Mr Chairman, if a six year old child, regardless of race, caste, colour or creed happens to be made by God six inches taller than the average height of the other six year old children in the class, will that child be discriminated against because God made him six inches taller?
Mr Chairman, surely common sense would dictate in such an instance that that child is of the normal age but is abnormally built as far as body stature is concerned.
We are talking about age and not physical stature.
Order! We now come to question no 2 on the Order Paper. I call upon the hon the Minister of Housing to rise.
Mr Chairman, is the time allocated for question 1 …
We have already completed question 1. We now come to question 2.
Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Hon membera are permitted to rise five times.
Order! I am aware of the rules but the hon member for Cavendish did not rise in time when I put question 2. [Interjections.]
Cover-up!
asked the Minister of Housing:
- (1) Whether the Administration: House of Delegates has taken over any building plots in Arena Pak from the Durban City Council; if so, when;
- (2) whether these plots have been serviced; if not, why not; if so, when;
- (3) whether an announcement has been made with regrd to the allocation of these plots; if so, (a) when and (b) by what means;
- (4) whether there has been a delay in the allocation of these plots to eligible applicants; if so, what are the reasons for this delay?
D79E
- (1) Yes, 17 June 1988; after lengthy negotiations.
- (2) Yes, February 1985 by the Durban Corporation;
- (3) Yes
- (a) 11 June 1988 in anticipation of transfer being effected as in (1).
- (b) By the former Minister of Housing, Mr A. Rajbansi, at a meeting of persons whose applications for the allocation of sites for development had been approved by the Housing Development Board.
- (4) Yes. Subsequent to the Board approval referred to above, doubts arose as to the accuracy of the surveying of certain of the erven as well as, consequential upon the James Commission, the bona fides and technical/financial standing of a number of applicants. Investigations into these aspects have proved a time consuming exercise which is only now drawing to a close. Consequently, final agreements between the Housing Development Board and the developers have, to date, not been concluded.
Mr Chairman, arising out of the reply of the hon the Minister: Once the plots have been serviced, why can they not be allocated to those on the waiting list? I am now referring to the plots, because considerable delay and extremely high escalating costs are the results of the prolonged delay. That is my first question.
Secondly, how does the hon the Minister intend to overcome long and unnecessary delays in the construction of houses for applicants on the waiting list, which is growing by the day? I am very seriously concerned because I am involved and I know how the community feels. Excellent land has been made available during the past five years but from what the hon the Minister indicated about certain technical flaws etcetera, the House of Delegates, as well as its administration, has unfortunately not delivered the goods. I am not passing an indictment on the hon the Minister because he has just assumed the function of a Minister in this regard, but if this matter is not put right within as short a time as possible it is a very serious indictment on this House.
Mr Chairman, in the first part of the answer I have explained what has caused the delay but I agree with the hon member that those plots should be made available to people on the waiting list as soon as possible. However, it is my intention to comply with certain formalities and hopefully that will also be the decision of the Housing Development Board.
We all agree with regard to the second question. It is because we are concerned that housing schemes must get off the ground as soon as possible that we had a meeting only on Saturday to see what can be done to expedite matters in Verulam and Stanger.
Order! The time for questions has now expired. The reply to the remaining questions will be taken up in the official records.
Business interrupted in accordance with Rule 180C (3) of the Standing Rules of Parliament.
asked the Minister of Education and Culture:
- (1) Whether the Teachers’ Association of South Africa recently withdrew from certain educational consultative committees; if so, what are the relevant details;
- (2) whether he has taken and/or intends taking any steps in respect of this association as a result of this withdrawal; if not, why not; if so, (a) what steps and (b) when;
- (3) whether he will make a statement on the matter?
D81E
- (1) Yes.
The Teachers’ Association of South Africa has withdrawn from the South African Council of Education, the Research Committee for Education Structures both of the Department of National Education and from all Subject Committees of the Department of Education and Culture, House of Delegates. - (2) Yes.
Having regard to the fact that recognition of the Association is statutorily specifically for the purpose of consultation as provided for in Section 30 of the Indians Education Act, 1965 (Act 61 of 1965), the Association has been requested to convince me by 30 April 1989 why recognition of the Association should not be withdrawn. - (3) No.
asked the Minister of Education and Culture:
Whether his Department or employees of his Department received any invitations from the Environmental Evaluation Unit of the University of Cape Town in respect of courses or seminars in 1989; if so, (a) when, (b) what is the nature of these courses or seminars and (c) what was his Department’s response?
D82E
Yes
- (a) In a letter dated 7 March 1989.
- (b) Course in “National Resources Decisionmaking and Conflict Management”.
- (c) The Department nominated a Chief Superintendent of Education to attend the Course.