Mr Chairman, I would like to latch onto a speech delivered here by the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central. I have not asked him to be present because I do not wish to attack him personally, but I should like to quote from a speech he delivered here on that particular day. I quote:

I do not intend to deal with the last accusation because I think that is pretty ridiculous. However, I do not think I can leave unchallenged the remarks about the hon the State President being unduly influenced by securocrats. Therefore I should like to give a particular perspective of my interpretation of that particular decade.

Brian Pottinger, inspired by Prof Willie Breyten-bach, claims that “securocrats”, and I quote—

*Mr Chairman, the State Security Council came into existence after an investigation by judge of appeal of the Supreme Court of South Africa, ie an investigation carried out by Mr Justice Potgie-ter. On the strength of that investigation an Act was passed in this Parliament six years before the hon the State President, Mr P W Botha, assumed office as Prime Minister. By law the State Security Council was instructed to advise the Government about the formulation and implementation of policy and strategy involving South Africa’s national security. As early as the Second Reading debate of this Bill on 24 March 1972 Mr Vorster, in his capacity as Prime Minister, pointed out that a new element was creeping in, ie revolutionary subversion of the State’s authority.

Thus the present National Management System, as we know it today, was built up on perspectives and legal statutory structures which had their origins some time before Mr P W Botha became either State President or Prime Minister of this country. What is possibly true, in effect, is that he deserves credit for the extent to which he organised this State mechanism. Through this mechanism an effort was made to establish a partnership between the prosperity and security communities. The prosperity community was not militarised, but was made security-conscious. The security forces, in turn, were made prosperity-conscious. This gave rise to the singular achievements essential to the peaceful co-existence of South Africa and all its people.

The National Management System is therefore not a crisis management system either, but rather one based on thorough planning and co-ordination. In the midst of a serious security situation, the implementation of prosperity plans continued and planning was done for this purpose.

In spite of the fact that the unrest situation in South Africa has improved considerably since 1986, the revolutionary potential, particularly in metropolitan areas, is still at a high level, with the result that the internal situation can still not be regarded as having been normalised. As a result of intensified action, in terms of the emergency regulations, against the UDF and other organisations since February of last year, there has been a noticeable levelling off of resistance efforts. The UDF is increasingly dependent upon its subsidiary elements for the implementation of its strategies and the realisation of its policy objectives.

All indications are, however, that the ANC and the radical groups are still engaged in extensive planning and are still actively attempting to make governmental structures unworkable, that numerous infrastructural elements are still latent and can immediately be activated and that radicals and their organisations still have the will to implement their planning and objectives. In their planning, however, they are being handicapped owing to the special emergency powers. They are not succeeding in completely breaking down the Government’s image, specifically owing to the prosperity campaigns which are increasingly gaining momentum.

†Revolutionaries and radicals in South Africa have come to the conclusion that they will not succeed with the revolution simply through armed confrontation and violence. They have therefore turned to alternative strategies in order to reach their target.

These strategies include the following: to mobilise the masses; making the RSA ungovernable; facing the Government with impossible demands in order to achieve their revolutionary objectives; destroying existing governmental structures; the isolation of the country and the disruption of the economy.

*I think that I have already presented a convincing case for the fact that the meaning of the buzz-word “securocrats” is not the meaning those who use it normally want to ascribe to it. The connotation they ought to attach to it has no bearing on anyone prescribing to the mechanism of State, but relates rather to the fact that one advocates a balanced approach.

The further accusation that Parliament is kept in the dark is, in my opinion, false. Every Government department is at present engaged in reporting fully to Parliament in the discussions of the Votes, and all their annual reports are debated here.

Even the caucus is kept in the dark!

I am now going to put a few questions to that hon member who is being so vociferous.

The National Management System is nothing but a joint effort being made by the individual Government departments. Roads, schools, houses and so on are elements of a joint strategy.

The security community, more so than anyone else, has stated that the country’s problems should also be solved by politicians and that political problems should be solved in political terms. That is why they are creating the opportunity and the atmosphere in which politicians can function and act.

This is the first time that the DP is participating in such a discussion of a Vote, and one would have expected them to seize this opportunity to map out or spell out their policy, to state that they had come together as an alliance of three groups, that they had amalgamated, that they were moving ahead together and that on the basis of the following principles they were going to regulate the security management of this country and govern.

If one makes any move towards those hon members and accuses them of being soft on security, they jump around like a snake in a fire.

You people are soft on corruption!

There are ten questions I want to put to that hon member who is being so vociferous. I appreciate his participation, and he is now going to furnish me with the replies.

Dr Dennis Worrall says:

That’s right!

The hon member Mr Zach de Beer says:

That’s also right!

That Rambo-style councillor from Johannesburg, Mr Tony Leon, says:

That’s all correct.

I am now asking the hon member for Houghton whether this party accepts the Rabie Report, drawn up by a judge of the Appeal Court as the basis for security action. It is therefore old PFP policy, and the answer is no.

I should like to take this opportunity to present the Committee with a picture of the basis of security legislation. In that report Mr Justice Rabie says:

Order! I see on the list of speakers that the hon member for Houghton will have another turn to speak. She will then have the opportunity to reply to the hon the Deputy Minister’s arguments.

Only 3 minutes!

Order! No, I cannot allow the hon member for Houghton to continue in this fashion. The hon the Deputy Minister may continue.

She is feeling uncomfortable, because yesterday she had 15 minutes and she failed to present her party’s policy and now that I am asking the questions, she is making the interjections.

She wants to answer you.

No, she had an opportunity of 15 minutes yesterday.

How can she answer you before you put the questions?

Mr Chairman, the second aspect is that the Rabie Report expressly states that laws cannot remove the conditions that have given rise to the unrest and violence. It also states that the end, as far as of the need for security legislation in the Republic is concerned, is not yet in sight. That is a clear statement that there is a need for security legislation. The second question is: Does that party accept that the ANC has developed into an organisation bent on violence, one which committed itself to a revolutionary people’s war in 1985? The hon member may presently reply to that.

I will.

Does the DP accept that the actual circumstances in 1986 were of such a serious nature that the hon the State President had no choice but to declare a general state of emergency in the interests of South Africa and all its people?

Fourthly, does the DP accept that the restrictive action against the UDF and other organisations during 1988 was timely action that saved lives and property?

Fifthly, does the DP accept that moderates, particularly in the Black residential areas, were intimidated to such an extent during 1986 that they were too afraid to adopt an opposing standpoint and that only action, chiefly in accordance with the emergency measures, created a situation that did make it possible for them to do so?

The DP, on the strength of certain principles which, during its congress …

If I were you, I would rather speak about the CP.

Mr Chairman, we are now dealing with law and order. The DP’s programme of principles states that exceptional circumstances may require the State to use emergency measures for the maintenance of security. In other words, provision is made, in their actions, for specific emergency powers. I quote:

The sixth request is this: Give us a scenario of circumstances that may possibly justify such emergency powers. Since 1984 we have believed that our situation justified special emergency powers, because at that time there were 400 people’s courts, 394 people were killed in necklace murders, 323 people lost their lives in other fire-related incidents and 18 000 buildings and 26 000 vehicles were damaged. Children like Stompie Mokhetse Seipei evidenced no respect for life or property. Are those the kind of circumstances that would compel them to introduce emergency powers? They say that they would place these emergency powers under the authority of a court. I am asking them to tell this Committee or the country, at some stage or other, whether they accept the authority of the courts when a judge finds that the UDF is the brain-child of the ANC, that the UDF is “the best apologist for the ANC’s policy of violence”, that the UDF is bent on the destruction of governmental institutions, on creating a revolutionary climate in South Africa and on making Black residential areas ungovernable and that the UDF regarded the election of Black local authorities, the murder and intimidation of councillors and police officials and arson as a victory. Do they accept the authority of a court that gives such a verdict?

In the eighth place, let us assess the emergency powers they may possibly consider. Would they authorise any special detentions? Would they ever prohibit any political meetings? Do they foresee such possible circumstances?

†Now I want to deal with the question the hon member for Houghton raised yesterday, the question of indemnity.

The question is: Will they have any provision in any of their special measures which gives indemnity to the SAP or any of the security forces? Yesterday the hon member indicated, and accused us, that that particular clause, more than anything else, was the vehicle which the Police use to abuse their powers. However, she quoted the matter completely out of context because operating under that particular clause means one has to deal with actions relating to emergency regulations. The examples she cited had nothing to do with emergency regulations. In other words, I am saying that indemnity has nothing to do with the ordinary Police functions such as examining murder cases and the ordinary policing of the community. Therefore, on that particular aspect she is wrong.

*We want answers from those hon members. Is the national convention still DP policy?

Yes.

Excellent. I thank the hon member for Yeoville for the answer. The hon member for Yeoville has said—to my knowledge for the first time—that a national convention is also DP Policy. The question is whether the ANC will be invited to that convention.

They would have to be part of it.

The hon member for Durban Central says that they would have to be part of that convention. In this debate the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central adopted a standpoint that I consider to be a praiseworthy one. I am referring to the standpoint he adopted when he said:

I agree with the standpoint of the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central, but I do not think the hon member for Durban Central and other hon members in his party agree with it.

Of course we do.

No, the hon member said the ANC would have to be a member. He laid down no conditions, as the other hon members of his party did. [Interjections.]

Order! No, I cannot allow the debate to become a free-for-all.

Those hon members have problems. Those who visited Dakar and those who did not, do not see eye to eye as far as this matter is concerned. The hon member for Houghton must now protect and keep them quiet, or else they are going to sell their party down the river. What is the relationship, the ties, between Idasa en die DP?

[Inaudible.]

Precisely, the hon member for Yeoville gave an unqualified reply, and I accept his view on that, but Dr Van Zyl Slabbert is being appointed as one of the chief advisers of the party. The day that party was established, he was paying a visit to Moscow, and what advice was he supposed to give these hon members? Hon members of that party accept invitations to join Dr Boraine in discussions in Harare. The point is that Idasa proposes immediate negotiations with the ANC, as I am alleging other hon members of that party do too. At the moment Idasa is functioning as the self-appointed agent of the ANC, to publicise the ANC’s constitutional guidelines and proposals. My contention is that there are hon members in that party who march under the same banner as Idasa.

I merely want to deal with the following point for a minute or two. The hon member for Randburg has intimated that he could talk the ANC out of its strategy of violence. Since the hon member for Randburg has spoken to the ANC, however, the ANC has stated its policy in no uncertain terms, and I quoting Mr Chris Hani who, on 28 January, said the following:

Alfred Nzo, reported in the Morning Star, said:

My contention is that hon members in that party will not succeed in talking the ANC out of its strategy of violence. My further contention is that those hon members will be unsuccessful in their efforts at dealing with the ANC’s strategy of violence because they want to do so with kid gloves.

For that reason the hon member for Houghton must not expect me to support her candidacy as Minister of Law and Order of South Africa.

Mr Chairman, I may refer later to certain aspects which were raised here by the hon hon the Deputy Minister of Law and Order. Permit me in the first place to thank the entire Police Force on behalf of the CP for safeguarding our country to such an extent that we may still walk our streets and sleep in calm and peace. I want to thank them for that. [Interjections.]

I want to express my congratulations on the exceptional successes which the Police have achieved. We have heard about their outstanding success at Ellis Park. I also want to refer to the exceptional success achieved by the security branch in my constituency, Ermelo, in combating terrorism after terrorists had entered the country via Swaziland. We also want to congratulate people in the Force who have been promoted. These people have exceptional talents; may they use them with great success.

On behalf of my party I also want to express our sympathy regarding those who sacrificed their lives. I want to put forward one proposal in this connection. It is a fact that many of our young men who die are unmarried. They are frequently still young boys who have just left their homes. There is no cover of any kind for these people if they lose their lives. In terms of the Workmen’s Compensation Act, there is cover for people who have dependants but these young men do not have any cover. Seen against the dangerous position in which they operate, I think it is high time that one looked into a group assurance scheme for these people. I consider this a reasonable request. One’s life can never be restored but I think it is fair that a parent who is placed in that position should be compensated by way of a policy or a payment for the fact that his child died in this way. We want to request the hon the Minister to investigate this very thoroughly.

Numerous hon members requested that the Police dispensation be improved. I can associate myself with this fully. It is clear, however, from the hon the Minister’s reply which he gave yesterday that funds are simply not available. I accept that it is impossible to carry out these things. This is the case. We are well aware that the Government is actually bankrupt, are we not? We know this. This is why it is impossible; this is as we see it. We agree with the hon the Minister that answers should be sought in another sphere. In our opinion, the solution really lies elsewhere. We say that the causes of unrest and violence should be removed from this country. Then the hon the Minister would have adequate police. We would have too many police. The hon the Minister would be able to reduce the numbers in the Force and in so doing increase the people’s salaries. The hon the Minister would be able to remunerate them fittingly, as they ought to be remunerated.

What are the causes of the unrest and violence? Let me state it frankly to the hon the Minister: The causes may be attributed to the Government which came up with a policy of reform. This policy of reform is the cause. Let us admit this to each other. When the new policy was presented to this country, it was said that it would bring peace, prosperity and safety. Exactly the opposite has happened. On the implementation of that policy in 1984, unrest and violence started escalating in this country. [Interjections.] We warned against this. We said that, if the Black man were excluded from this dispensation, it would cause unrest and trouble. That fact is acknowledged by experts.

There is a board of experts of the HSRC which conducted an inquiry and confirmed that it was true and that these conditions coincided exactly with the time when reform was instituted. The Government admits it in the words of one of the hon Ministers who says—it is written here—that there are no illusions about the political bitterness among Black people. Their exclusion is the cause of this problem. This problem will persist and, until the NP accedes to Black people’s conditions for participation, this unrest will not come to an end. We are telling the Government this today, just as we did prior to 1984. This is where the problem lies and the Government will not be able to escape it as this is the path it has chosen. [Interjections.]

I want to say, however, that in the national interest the commercial crime unit of the Force should be granted greater recognition within the existing framework. We live in times of electronics and computers. We live in times in which large-scale crime is committed in an exceptional way by exceptionally skilled people. We no longer lose hundreds of rands but millions. I request that this unit of the Force be remunerated on a professional basis. They are the people who investigate crimes of the greatest magnitude and complexity. Nearly all of them are graduates and we propose that they, like other units of the Force, be remunerated on that basis. We regard this as a meaningful request because the Force will otherwise suffer an enormous brain drain.

I want to return to replies which the hon the Minister furnished here which, according to him, would ease the problem. He started along the right road and said that there should be an increase in the number of reservists. I agree with him fully. It is really the right answer at the moment but then mistakes are not to be made in the process. I should like to know whether it is not a mistake to have reservists do 16 hours’ compulsory duty at present. Will he not be creating the situation in which fewer people will offer their services? In my opinion, reservists should work shorter hours again as more people would then offer their services.

The second point I want to raise as a mistake that the hon the Minister makes is the following. He refuses to accept people as reservists on irrelevant grounds and considerations. I am referring here in particular to the fact—we have debated it already—that he excludes some of the most competent leaders in the community. Among these are people who were candidates in the past municipal election. In my opinion, political participation is irrelevant. The only yardstick which should apply is the legal one whether a man is of good character and whether he is competent to carry out police service. That is why other considerations should not be taken into account.

The hon the Minister is also making a mistake in debarring people or political parties or organisations which, in his subjective opinion, are of a radical nature from becoming reservists. The CP is regarded by some hon members here as being rightist-radical. Others again regard the DP as leftist-radical. In this way the hon the Minister will entirely destroy the feeder source which he has. The hon the Minister is making a mistake and should not continue in that way.

A further alarming aspect is that policemen are leaving the Force on a large scale. Last year 2 500 policemen left the Force. I understand that they are leaving the Force now at a tempo of 10 a day. This is alarming. I want to make the statement today that the greatest single factor which contributes to policemen leaving the Force is frustration and not money. In my experience, people who become members of the SAP do so in the first place because they are vocationally orientated. Some want to be in the Police because their fathers were. They feel a need to be in the Police. The point at issue is not money to any extent. They want salaries on which one can live but that is not their greatest consideration. Policemen leave the Force in frustration arising from carrying out their work.

I really want to congratulate the hon member for Umhlatuzana that he had the moral courage, in the light of his party’s standpoint here, to point out a matter which leads to frustration in the Police, that is the way in which the Group Areas Act is dealt with. Coming from him—an hon member of the NP who could surely have no malicious intentions—I want to tell the Government to accept his reprimand without qualification.

I want to take the matter further and illustrate it. It would be an evil day if the impression arose that the Police, in carrying out their primary duty which is the maintenance of law and order, were thwarted, frustrated or obstructed to oblige a specific political party. The Government provides the equipment with which the Police have to work, that is the existing laws. If there are no laws to cover a shortcoming, the Government should create them. It is not the duty of the Police to question laws. Regardless of the government in power, the Police have to enforce those laws whether they agree with them or not.

We know that the Group Areas Act is an obstacle in the way of the Government’s policy of reform. It has been identified as a stumbling block on this road. [Interjections.] On Government instructions this Act is hardly enforced anymore at present. The Act remains on the Statute Book, however, and the Police are in the line of fire. They are the ones who have to receive complaints. The Police know in advance that it will not even help to investigate the complaint—it is fruitless to do so. They are powerless but they are held up and the public also see them as weaklings and people who are incapable of accomplishing their task. The Police are even humiliated.

This may all be traced back to an effort to make the NP’s policy acceptable. This is the problem. If this were not so, those laws would be enforced stringently. Nevertheless this is an obstacle to reform, which is NP policy, and this is the problem.

I want to tell the Government that it should abolish the Act in such a case. [Interjections.] It would be preferable to abolish it than to have it remain in the Statute Book because it creates frustration among the people who have to enforce the Act. [Interjections.] This is the problem. If the Government no longer wants that Act, it should not keep it there. For goodness sake take it away then so that the voters can see exactly where the Government is heading with them.

There is an even more flagrant example of the abuse of the Police Force for political purposes. This is the hon the Minister’s instructions to the Police regarding the enforcement of the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act. This is an ugly thing; it is really monstrous. Again the Force has to oblige a specific political party. The Reservation of Separate Amenities Act provides that, if a local authority deems it necessary, it may designate separate amenities. This is a discretionary power which any local authority has.

If the local authority implements the Act, the Police have to maintain law and order. They then have to carry out the provisions of the Act. This is the task of the Police in the first place and not the business of the local authority.

After the municipal elections had taken place last year, the hon the Minister suddenly gave orders to the Police that, if a local authority implemented the Act, the Police themselves were to ignore it and close their eyes to it. [Interjections.] These were the instructions to the Police. Only if the Police receive a complaint, are they permitted to react. Otherwise they are not permitted to do so even if the Act is contravened before their very eyes.

These instructions do not apply in all cases either. It is only if the implementation were to clash with Government policy that this particular action is to be carried out. The Police now have to accept that, if the NP-controlled town council of Vereeniging, where the hon leader of the NP lives, were to continue implementing that Act, for instance, or if it were instituted at the recreation resort on the Vaal River or at the Rietvlei Dam near this hon Minister— the NP’s local executive is engaged on this at present— then the Police have to enforce the Act. Then all is well because it is in accordance with Government policy. They have to apply that policy and the Police then have to do their work as they did in the past. Nevertheless if CP-controlled town councils, as in Boksburg or other CP-controlled places, close their recreational facilities to other races, they have to close their eyes. [Interjections.] The Police then have to ignore it. Surely this is an absurd and ridiculous instruction. Policemen will be able to ask with justification, as we all do, what the prevailing Government policy actually is. What really applies because this holds at one place and elsewhere it is just the opposite. [Interjections.] It simply depends on where one is. It differs from town to town now.

It is the Police, however, who have to bear the brunt again and stand in the line of fire of the Government’s reform policy. This legislation, just like the Group Areas Act, is a stumbling block on the road to reform.

It is clear that the impression has to be created in Boksburg that the Police are ranging themselves on the side of those who want this legislation abolished because they have to turn a blind eye now. If they observe people contravening the law in full sight of the Police, they are not permitted to arrest them if it does not suit the Government. The law may be treated with contempt and this creates a spirit of lawlessness. The image of the Police as enforcers of the law is damaged incalculably. The Police deserve better treatment than this. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, at the outset I too wish to associate myself with other hon members who have expressed their condolences to the families of those brave policemen who lost their lives in the line of duty. Their sacrifice to make our country a safe place to live in, is noted with great admiration. May God Almighty grant those families consolation, strength and fortitude.

I just want to make a brief observation with regard to the speech of the hon member for Ermelo. I am pleased that he has shown interest in the problems the policemen are experiencing. I would support him if he would take the matter up with his party and save the policeman the extra uncalled-for duty by supporting the scrapping of the Group Areas Act and the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act.

I come from Actonville, which is an area in the Eastern Transvaal. We have an unofficial population of some 30 000 souls. There is a police station which I can remember since my childhood. It is my honest contention that the building needs renovations to provide suitable offices for our policemen. I urge the hon the Minister to visit Actonville, to perhaps get a first-hand impression of the situation and to confirm what I have stated.

When one looks at the area of Actonville itself and one looks at where the police station is situated, one sees that security is definitely a cardinal factor. I suggest that perhaps proper fencing and gate control, which I believe is important, should be considered.

Police stations in our areas are mainly manned by policemen from Natal. Amongst these people there are those who are married with children. While they prepare to go out and do their duty in the areas to which they are posted, consideration should be given to their accommodation, since this is a prime cause for concern. I was told a few minutes ago by the hon member for Laudium that they have a temporary police station in Laudium, and they seem to be having the same problems in providing necessary accommodation.

I am aware that there are four basic training centres—training colleges—with a standardised syllabus. The college situated in Pretoria is for the White population group. It caters for approximately 4 278 students per year. Wentworth, for the Indian population group, caters for approximately 272 students per year, Bishop Lavis, for Coloureds, caters for 894 students per year, and Hammanskraal, for non-Whites, caters for 2 038 students per year. The total budget for basic and advanced training is R93,154 million, which amounts to 2,68% of the total Police budget. The average cost of training a member is, I believe, R17 143. This amount of money spent in training a member will be lost if we do not look at the absolute necessity of providing suitable accommodation for those policemen.

My information reveals that approximately 143 different types of course are offered in the SA Police. During 1988, some 59% of the members of the Force attended one or more courses. In a time of fast-changing circumstances that make extreme demands on the SA Police, mere experience is not enough to achieve their aims. Their effectiveness as appointed officials within the State framework is relevant to the quality and quantity of training that is offered, from the lowest to the highest management levels, on a continuous basis.

Training should therefore be regarded as a high priority in the Police budget. To maintain training in the SA Police in a healthy position, sufficient funds should be budgeted for these courses. This, I believe, will ensure that efficiency and effectiveness is maintained.

Last year I had the pleasure of accompanying the hon the Minister of Law and Order and his Deputy Minister when we got down to Ma-leoskop. There I observed an important shortcoming, and the question I would like to ask, is: Why has consideration not been given to the establishment of an airstrip in Maleoskop? I think that is of vital importance. The other question of interest is how many members of each race group are trained at Maleoskop at a given time, what is their strength, and what is the cost involved in training?

Mr Chairman, I want to refer back to a few remarks made by the hon member for Ermelo, who is unfortunately not in the House. He remarked that reform was the cause of the present unrest we were experiencing. The fact of the matter is that his leader— the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly—made it quite clear in 1981 already that the country was experiencing a total onslaught. This was three years before the Government started its reform steps in 1984, when the new Constitution was introduced. At that stage already he issued a warning that the public of South Africa should not underestimate that total onslaught.

This onslaught increased in intensity when the Government took the initiative in eliminating the justified grievances of people, because the revolutionary relies on a dissatisfied community to promote his objectives. To an increasing extent the NP is depriving the revolutionary of this opportunity. If this is the fault of reform, he must explain to us what caused the Sharpeville incident and the Rivonia incident. Was it also reform?

His remarks about the Group Areas Act which is not being implemented …

It is blatant communism. If you do not know that, then you must find it out!

If communism is part of the total onslaught against South Africa, then the hon member knows in what way the communist acts if he wants to start a revolutionary struggle and keep it going. He moves into communities where there are grievances and then he uses those grievances to cause dissatisfaction.

[Inaudible.]

Order! No, the hon member for Sout-pansberg may not sit there and make a speech. The hon member for Vryburg may proceed.

As regards the hon member’s remark about the Group Areas Act, he alleged that many cases are being investigated and that there are no prosecutions, or that cases are investigated and people are found not guilty in court.

He is now linking the Police to the NP’s policy. I do not know why he has singled out the Group Areas Act in this regard, because there are innumerable cases—thousands of cases—which are investigated and which do not lead to prosecutions. Thousands of cases are tried in court in which the accused are found not guilty.

As regards separate facilities, I merely want to tell him that it will be an sad day when members of the SAP become a symbol of CP strength, CP racism and CP prejudice.

I should like to associate myself with the tributes and congratulations previous speakers addressed to the SAP. The essence of the methodology of this Force is expressed in their motto of protection and service. They are the public’s friend in combating crime. I am grateful for the efforts which are being made to establish the SAP and the public as partners in the carrying out of their duty to help to ensure an orderly existence for everyone.

I should like to discuss child abuse in this debate. This is a matter which has shaken South Africa during the past few months. It has been identified as a social problem which has assumed enormous proportions, and which includes sexual, emotional and physical abuse of children. The latter occurs most often and is easy to identify. On the other hand, sexual and emotional abuse can be seen as secret offences.

It would also seem that parents who physically abuse their children, are frequently subject to some or other form of tension. The child becomes a victim of the problems arising out of the marriage, human relations or socio-economic conditions in that parents vent their frustrations on him. Alcohol and drug abuse also contribute to this problem.

Many parents who are responsible for child abuse are young and emotionally immature. In some cases the abuse takes place over a long period during which the child is abused several times, but is never injured so seriously that medical aid is required. The child is very seldom fatally injured the first time.

In the majority of cases only serious cases such as assault with the intent to do grievous bodily harm and murder are reported to the Police. Consequently an alarming number of cases of child abuse are never brought to the attention of the Police.

For this reason the Police rely on doctors, teachers, welfare workers, neighbours and the general public to report cases. Research has shown that quick police and welfare action has drastically reduced the death-toll of so-called “at risk children” in various overseas countries.

Information in connection with the scope and nature of offences against children given to members of the Force by the hon the Minister among others, and personal and intensive guidance sessions to Ministers, the Department of Education and Culture, church organisations, the Department of Health Services and Welfare, psychological services and other experts in this field led to the establishment of several committees. High-level discussions were also continued in which the problem was addressed in its totality. The idea of a multi-disciplinary approach to deal with the problem met with approval, and in this the SAP definitely played a leading role and is still doing so in discussions and meetings. Many symposiums, talks, lectures and other programmes are being presented by members of the protection units throughout the country, while requests from every imaginable community organisation are being received virtually every day.

There is a significant increase in the number of cases of offences against children being reported to the Police. The reason for this increase may be ascribed to greater awareness aroused among the public to report cases of this kind, particularly through publicity which the media gave to the establishment of child protection units. The increase of 139% in reported cases for 1987 compared with 1986 is remarkable, as is the fact that to an increasing extent this offence is being reported by all race groups. In this connection I cannot neglect to mention the good reporting of our daily newspapers as well as the excellent programme by the SABC on this matter, because this played an important part in cases of abuse of South African children being reported to the helping hand of the SAP.

I want to refer next to a few statistics with regard to offences against children by comparing the figures for the first six months of 1988 with those for the second six months of 1988. Infanticide declined from 95 cases to 86, assault with the intent to do grievous bodily harm rose from 377 cases to 530, assault (ordinary) from 605 cases to 749, rape from 612 cases to 1 095, sodomy from 132 cases to 229, incest from 59 cases to 110, indecent assault from 241 cases to 801 and contraventions of the Immorality Act from 85 cases to 394. Child-stealing increased from 219 cases to 406.

The SAP is continuing unabated with the expansion and establishment of child protection units and the appointment of specialised individuals to investigate offences against children. Manpower and means remain a problem, however. Since the establishment of child protection units in Durban, Johannesburg and Cape Town units have also been established in 1988-89 in Pretoria, Port Elizabeth, Germiston, Bloemfontein, Pietermaritzburg and Soweto. This puts the total membership of these nine units at 66. In 1988 three joint police operations were held in Johannesburg, Durban and Cape Town, in which members attached to the different units were involved. Many persons were arrested for offences against children. The operations elicited tremendously favourable public and media reaction and assisted in enhancing the image of the Force and confirming that the Force plays a major role in combating these offences. A result of this police operation was a greater awareness of the problem among the public as well as other components of society.

A week ago we learned that members of the Peninsula Child Protection Unit had uncovered a child sex network which is believed to have consisted of at least 16 men who allegedly committed sodomy and other indecent acts with children. It was shocking to learn that 25 children between the ages of 12 and 17 were exchanged between these men for the purpose of committing sexual offences. This unit can justifiably be congratulated on their actions in exposing this evil network. The hearing of cases resulting from operations in 1988 are now being finalised and successful prosecutions are the order of the day. In other cases the following up of information is continuing unabated.

Because there is no doubt that the establishment of special police units has a great influence on the reporting of cases of child abuse, and in an effort to plan, co-ordinate and develop the SAP’s involvement in child protection, a post has been created at head office and the role of this official is to identify needy areas, co-ordinate and plan units throughout the country, develop and carry out training programmes, develop publicity material, liaise with other departments and organisations and in general give attention to the investigation of cases and the prevention of this kind of offence.

A first course for 30 members of the child protection units is planned for 19 June to 7 July 1989. The composition of the contents of the course is a comprehensive matter and is at present receiving the attention of the head office detective branch. Experts attached to the relevant disciplines will be guest speakers at the course.

It is general knowledge that the intervention of the SAP and the subsequent court proceedings can expose the child victim to another traumatic experience. In the light of this constant investigations are being made into possible steps to protect the child witness during the court procedure. Investigation officials are striving to prepare the child victim psychologically for the court beforehand and during the first interview with the child the necessity of repeating the statement to the court, specific court procedures and the further investigation of the case—for example medical examinations—are emphasised.

Every case is handled on merit and if work conditions and manpower allow it, the child victim is taken to a court the day before the trial so that the court procedure, the positions of the various officials in the court, the position of the witness-box and the way of giving evidence can be explained until the child is familiar with it and feels at ease. In order to protect the child victim and other child witnesses, the court proceedings take place in camera according to the provisions of the Criminal Procedure Act, and the witness is also supported by this parent or guardian.

One of the many fears the child has is to come face to face with the accused again, and in order to eliminate this fear and possible intimidation through eye-contact with the accused, at present experiments are being carried out with the use of one-way glass in the witness-box. This is effective but is not being used in all centres while the official approval of the Department of Justice is being awaited. Discussions and liaison with the South African Law Commission have been introduced and certain recommendations have been submitted by the SAP to protect the child in court. These are being investigated at present and finality on this should be reached soon. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I want to associate myself with the numerous members of Parliament who have asked that the lady members of the Police Force must remain at Parliament permanently.

*We really do not want the lady members to be sent away tomorrow. Many of the hon members of Parliament were in their offices early this morning. Many of them dressed very nicely, etc.

†I think it is an extremely challenging time for a South African policeman. They have come through a period in which life was made almost unbearable for them and their families in the townships. We want these men to know that we fully appreciate what they have done and are doing for South Africa. My appreciation goes to the hon the Minister, General De Witt, Captain Opperman, Brigadier During, Brigadier Acker, the Athlone district office, the Bishop Lavis police office staff and officers, amongst others Major Langeveld, Mr Lang and Captain Loub-ser.

Last year I pleaded the case for my constituency with regard to gangsterism, and I must honestly say that there was an immediate reaction from the hon the Minister down to the General, right down to the local police station. People called me to thank me for the excellent work that our policemen were doing in ridding their townships of gangs. I have been shown that it is possible to rid a township of gangs. I thank them for their immediate action. However, then the municipal election came and these men were taken out of the township again. I now have the assurance of the General that these men will be reposted. It has been good to see people being able to move around freely again in Bonteheuwel.

I want the members of the SAP to know that Bonteheuwel is most grateful. I know that things will return to normal again after the general’s assurance that these men will be back in action again.

Let me deal immediately with the question of a police station in Bonteheuwel. Yesterday quite a number of hon members also requested a police station for Bonteheuwel.

*I do not know if some of these members would like to make themselves available in my constituency, but they will get the hiding of their lives! This morning I told an hon member that only death would part me from Parliament. I do not know about them, but I will certainly return!

†Strangely, the hon member for Border, the hon member for Hanover Park and the hon member for Rylands all asked for a police station in Bonteheuwel. More than two and a half years ago the hon the Minister gave us the assurance that Bonteheuwel would get a police station after his department investigated the need for one. Immediately after that it was set in motion and a site was found in Jakkalsvlei Avenue, Bonteheuwel, for the new police station.

Thereafter another investigation was held. It was found that there was an even more urgent need for a police station. They then decided to immediately put up a charge office in Kiaat Road, Bonteheuwel. After that another investigation was held, and they felt that there was an even more urgent need for a police station. They then provided us with a mobile police station. Well, I must say that that mobile police station has since been removed. Where it is now I would not know, but I would appreciate it if this mobile police station is returned to the area while we are waiting for the actual police station to be built in Jakkalsvlei Avenue.

On 24 June we will be having an open day for the Police in Valhalla Park. We started this open day with the express purpose of changing the attitudes of the people towards the Police and vice versa. When we had an open day at a previous occasion, it was a tremendous success. Thousands of people turned up. I would like to ask that the hon the Minister or his general be our guest speaker on 24 June, if they are available. I also want to ask that we have the Police helicopter on 24 June. Perhaps we can even give tickets to persons who come onto the field that day. Maybe we can have four lucky draws and the four people who win could then get a free ride in the Police helicopter! I do not see why this should be a problem, because all of us are taxpayers of South Africa. [Interjections.]

Perhaps we can also have police dogs on that day. I think this should become an annual event. This open day will be the second or third of its kind. The hon member for Bishop Lavis will be able to help me here. I think it is the second time that we will have a function of this nature. We get a lot of support from policemen. I know, I dug into my own pocket to help with the funding of that event. The hon member for Bishop Lavis also dug into his pocket to help with the funding of the event. We want people to have the time of their life on that day.

Where will this function be held?

It will be held in Valhalla Park.

Sir, there is a Major Paulse who works at the Athlone district office. I have not seen him for a long time and he does not even know what I am about to say. However, many years ago this man did wonderful work as far as the prevention of crime in the Manenberg area was concerned. He was working with the then “peacemakers”. He then retired, but after a number of years he was called back by the Police to assist them with the training of reservists in our areas.

When this man left he was a major and in my opinion he would already have been promoted if he had stayed with the Police. I want to ask the hon the Minister to look at what this man is doing and to give him a promotion. I know it might not do anything to his salary because he is a retired policeman that is working for the Police full-time now. However, we must really appreciate what he is doing with our reservists.

Earlier on we spoke about the onslaught against our policemen. The political onslaught against our policemen is manifested in acts that are perpetrated against the members and their families. I want to say to the hon member for Ermelo that many policemen did not resign out of frustration. I know that radical forces forced many policemen to resign, because many of their marriages were broken up because of sacrifices that they had to make in the townships. The purpose of the propaganda launched against them was to break them down morally and to discredit them. However, through it all the Police stood in the way of the revolutionary forces. The policemen are showing us that, irrespective of what government will ever be in power in South Africa, we shall always need policemen to protect us.

This brings me to a very topical issue, which is school gangs. The other day a young boy was killed in Valhalla Park and I extend my sympathy to his family. The newspapers reported that this boy was killed at school. I want to say to that Sunday newspaper that it is not true. This boy was neither a member of a school gang nor was he killed on the school premises. [Interjections.] The particular school that we are talking about was one of the best schools in Cape Town during the 1985 unrest. In fact, there were no disturbances whatsoever at this school.

*My time has run out again. Is it not possible to have longer periods of time allocated to speakers here?

Mr Chairman, the Government is fond of talking about security. They even fight elections over security, but I suggest to hon members that the Government’s record of protecting our citizens against crime—I am referring particularly to ordinary crime—is pathetic. Crimes of violence such as rape, robbery and murder are a much greater threat to a much greater number of South Africans than political violence today. The statistics bear this out overwhelmingly and news reports show it clearly, even though bombings and acts of terror that may cause the death of people are probably more newsworthy.

A major cause of the Government’s failure in fighting violent crime is their own political vanity. It appears to them that it is more glamorous to indulge in a show of strength and power against their political opponents—legal or illegal—than to perform the patient and persistent but onerous task of ordinary crime prevention.

The evidence is there for all to see. Whenever there is a political protest or the possibility of a protest march by people who wish to challenge the Government, policemen and sometimes even SADF personnel are brought in by the truckload. However, when two people are stabbed to death on a station platform in Woodstock there is nobody for miles around to assist them. When the Government feel that they can placate right-wing interests with a cross-border raid of very little security significance, they always find enough personnel, but when the ordinary uniform branch of the SAP is hopelessly understaffed and elderly people in particular are therefore exposed to vicious criminals, the Government pleads poverty.

It is because of the Government’s obsession with its own vanity and its pursuit of what appears to be more glamorous activities, that the Police budget is inadequate while the Defence budget still carries a lot of fat. It is for the same reason that within the Police Force the crime prevention people are overworked while those who operate in the political field sometimes sit around waiting to pounce on the next harmless dissident.

I want to call on the hon the Minister to do something about the situation. We cannot afford this cockeyed sense of priorities. I want to appeal to him—it has been said by other people and he has indicated before that some experiments have been done in this area—to introduce foot patrols in cities. It must be done on a large scale. He should even consider obtaining closed-in one-man scooters like those used by the New York police department for street patrols. They are particularly handy if a person on patrol has to deal with difficult weather.

Secondly there should be a police presence at every railway station and bus terminus and on every train. Thirdly the detective branch should be strengthened so that crimes can be investigated more effectively and more speedily.

From where should they get the manpower? They should stop wasting precious police manhours on pointless and distasteful group areas investigations. Here I want to refer to the hon member for Ermelo and the hon member for Umhlatuzana who both complained about it. I share their frustration and I want to suggest that it is the most ridiculous situation that pertains at the moment. Thousands upon thousands of police manhours are being wasted to pursue investigations which everybody knows will not go beyond the prosecutor’s office. Everybody knows that.

I want to suggest further that there should be a drastic cut-down on the number of personnel involved in dealing with political protests. Those people are by and large completely harmless. If something should go wrong, there are methods and equipment that can be used to deal with a crisis. One does not need an army of people there to control the situation.

Furthermore, address the issue of police salaries and working conditions urgently to reward the police personnel for the very onerous and dangerous tasks that they must so often perform. Finally, trim down the security branch, particularly in some country areas where it seems that some of the operators have enough time to do nothing else than conduct a campaign of harassment against innocent people.

The hon the Deputy Minister spoke to us a little earlier. Clearly he is one of the more recent recruits to what I will refer to as the “securocrat lobby.” The hon the Deputy Minister said that it is false to suggest that this lobby or group exists or that it has any influence on the Government. I want to suggest to him that one must be very naive not to know that, particularly under the P W Botha regime, security interests—people concerned with security, defence, police and particularly in the area of secret work—have obtained inordinate influence on Government.

I want to suggest that in the process the Cabinet’s influence has been undermined. Democracy and Parliament have been undermined too. I want to say to the hon the Deputy Minister that he remembers very well—he was the chairman of the standing committee at the time—the days when we dealt with critical issues such as amendments to the Internal Security Act and the Public Safety Act. He knows very well that in the past year or two that committee has done nothing of any consequence. The laws are made in Ministers’ offices and are sometimes even signed by a senior Police officer. With what do we deal? We deal with decorations and uniforms. That is what I mean when I say that Parliament and the democracy have been undermined in the process. It is an unacceptable state of affairs and the hon the Deputy Minister had better take notice of it. [Interjections.]

Finally I just want to refer to an issue in Natal which has become increasingly worrying over the past few days, and that is the position of persons who have been released from detention and who in terms of their restriction orders have to report to the police on a daily or in some cases twice-daily basis.

Some of these people do so at a risk to their lives and to their well-being. Hon members will all know by now that a few days ago a man by the name of Mr Chris Ntuli was actually murdered on his way back home after having reported to the police station at Inanda.

We all know how tense and difficult the situation is in some parts of Natal and how dangerous it is for people to move around. When a person in such a position is exposed to a situation where people outside knows precisely when he is at home and when he has to go outside to do anything—whether it is to report to the police station or anything else—one puts him to undue risk. That is something I think is unacceptable and I hope the hon the Minister will give his urgent attention to the matter.

Mr Chairman, whilst the hon member for Green Point is returning to his seat, I should just like to make one or two remarks with regard to his speech.

The hon member has just stood here and said quite a lot of things, but he did not express a single word of gratitude towards the Police.

He asked for better salaries for them!

He stands out like a sore thumb amongst all those who have spoken so far. Even the hon member for Houghton and the hon member for Claremont, who are highly critical of the Police, really gave credit where it was due, credit which these people deserve.

The hon member for Green Point, however, indulged in an outpour of virulence and said a number of unfriendly things here. He is bitter towards the Police. He was not always a Policehater and I do not know why he has become one now.

You are insulting the people’s intelligence.

The hon member says the SAP are taking action—after all, it is not I who am taking action against our political opponents, it is the Police who are taking action—and that this is one of the things that we must stop, because we could use those policemen to do other work.

He said that nothing would happen at the political meetings. Where does the hon member live? Is he Rip van Winkel? He must realise that he is living in South Africa, because what have we experienced in South Africa over the past four years? It is at these political meetings of the radicals that people are aroused and it is from these meetings that they go out and commit violence. That is why the SAP must take action. If he does not believe me, he may ask his colleague, the hon member for Claremont—no, he is not yet his colleague, because they do not want him—because he often frequents those places. He sees what goes on there.

The hon member must not attempt to advance that sort of argument, namely that we are taking action against our political opponents. I shall come back to this later in my speech.

Mr Chairman, I just want to ask the hon the Minister whether he really thinks that the sort of meeting that is regularly held here in the cathedral hall near Parliament, poses a physical danger of such magnitude to the people in this area that 70 or 80 policemen are needed to watch over the proceedings? In any event, they do not take action and they do not interfere with what is said—they are simply there.

The hon member knows, and must take into account, that this cathedral is situated within an area from which, in terms of a law passed by this Parliament, marches and demonstrations may not take place. Marches have already taken place from that cathedral, in violation of this law.

Yes.

That is correct, and the hon member admits it. He knows it is true, but despite that fact he says there should not be any policemen present. In his speech this afternoon the hon member used the same words as the ANC. The ANC speaks about the “P W Botha regime” and that hon member is now launching a fierce attack on the security forces because we are ostensibly doing things which we should not be doing.

I want to make the point here this afternoon that if it were not for the security forces, the SAP and the SADF, that hon member would no longer be sitting in this Parliament. I wish to make that statement here and I have grounds for saying so. Our enemies, who would not tolerate such a parliament, would already have been governing this country. Whenever the hon member is so quick to speak contemptuously about the security police and the security forces having nothing to do and sitting and making mischief, he should spare a thought for the fact that they are the people who ensure that he and I and our other hon colleagues sitting here may assemble here in peace and debate matters as we are debating them.

So much for the hon member, however; he and I will never see eye to eye. I had always thought that he was a reasonable hon member until I recently read in the newspaper that he was now one of the radicals in the DP! I think they are right. The newspaper said he was a radical, and we see this here today as well.

Yesterday, and today as well, we conducted an enjoyable debate and listened to certain hon members who were already firing the first salvos of the election. This is a good thing, because after all, we should all like to come back. My colleague, the hon member for Bonteheuwel, said that no one would get him out of Bonteheuwel. He fired his salvo, and quite rightly so; that adds spice to a debate.

†I would now like to turn briefly to the hon member for Houghton. In her speech yesterday she referred in the first place to the so-called indemnity clause. I want to tell the hon member that according to present records held by the SA Police, no member of the SA Police has so far relied on the indemnity clause in the emergency regulations to avoid prosecution in any criminal matter. Only one civil claim which arose from action in terms of the emergency regulations is being defended by the SA Police on the grounds of the indemnity clause of the emergency regulations. The allegations that the indemnity clause of the emergency regulations is the cause of reckless actions by the SA Police is therefore completely unfounded.

Mr Chairman, in that case will the hon the Minister explain how it is that the Auditor-General’s latest report states that of the compensation which has been paid during the last year, which amounted to R3,5 million, R1,75 million was paid as a result of injuries as a result of police action in riots?

Mr Chairman, I have been trying to explain to the hon member that the Police did not rely on the indemnity clause. That is the point.

*We did not hide behind that clause. We did not hide away. We fought the case on its merits, as I have just indicated to the hon member.

†The increase in the amount paid in respect of civil actions during 1988 is inter alia due to the fact that claims resulting from riots increased from 12 in 1987 to 69 in 1988.

*That is true; there were many more claims which arose out of the actions of the Police. However, we did not hide behind this clause.

†Another important factor is that several claims were instituted in previous years but were only settled during 1988. In addition, due to the depreciation of the monetary currency, claims have been awarded a higher settlement value, which is another reason for the increase.

The hon member also referred to the role of the special constables in the shooting incident in Bongolethu, Oudtshoom. I want to provide her with a reply in this regard. After consultation with the State Attorney, the civil case was settled in the best interests of the Force, as well as of the persons concerned, for R31 500. A cheque for this amount is being sent to the people by the State Attorney today. Because the lawsuit had not yet been finalised, criminal and departmental steps have not been considered. This is now receiving attention.

The hon member also referred to the Murder and Robbery Unit and the case of the Black female sangoma.

*Unfortunately, I cannot pronounce her surname; it is a little difficult.

†In the case involving the Black female sangoma, an urgent motion in which an order was requested against the SA Police was initially lodged in the Supreme Court. The motion was disposed of by way of an undertaking that was given by the Police, but the question of costs was argued. I want to point this out: An order of costs was awarded against the applicant in that case. After consultation with the State Attorney and in the interests of the Force and the person concerned, a civil claim that was subsequently instituted by the sangoma was settled for R40 000. As a result of this lawsuit, it has not yet been possible to finalise the criminal and departmental investigations. A senior officer of the detective branch is at present leading a full investigation into this matter.

The hon member, as well as other hon members, also referred to the issue of Mr Hein Grosskopf. I would like to say a few things in this regard.

*I should like to make the following remarks with regard to this heart-rending story. Let me say at once that I feel very sorry for Mrs Grosskopf. My heart goes out to her and her family. In fact, I feel sorry for all the parents of many young people who in so many cases are entirely innocently dragged into the activities of terror and revolutionary organisations in South Africa. It is a shocking waste of the promising potential of our country’s youth.

I also want to issue a stern warning to our young students at universities today. They must beware of the cunning of our enemies, particularly the ANC. They direct their efforts at naive young leaders and entice them with all sorts of fine-sounding promises and soft talk. They must not allow themselves to be misled by these tactics. They must beware.

As parents, we all have high expectations for our children. We find it hard to believe that our children ever do anything wrong, and for this reason I want to appeal to every parent to prevent their children from becoming involved in the activities of the ANC. The ANC is an unscrupulous terrorist organisation which is not in the least concerned about the welfare of their child. If their child has fallen into the clutches of the ANC, only pain and suffering lie in store for him, and for them as parents.

They are all aware of the case in which the ANC trained a 14 year old boy as a terrorist. Thereafter he returned, we found him and he gave evidence. Can there still be any doubt that this organisation is absolutely unscrupulous?

As far as the question of the correspondence between Mrs Grosskopf and myself is concerned, I just wish to say a few things: It is a pity that Mrs Grosskopf is bruiting it abroad. I regard it as confidential and I furnished her with certain information at our disposal in good faith. By making this information public, she has now, in fact, bedevilled certain issues even further.

Insofar as replies to her are concerned, my office has acknowledged receipt of all letters written to me by her. In retrospect, however, it would appear to have been wise not to reveal further information to her.

I am, however, compelled to say the following with regard to the entire matter.

Firstly, the SAP possesses certain highly confidential information which indicates that Mr Grosskopf was involved in the car bomb explosion at Command Headquarters in Johannesburg. There are also indications that he could have been involved in the same sort of incident in Krugersdorp.

Secondly—since what is at issue here is an extremely serious crime and the lives of defenceless members of the public which are at stake— the Police and I have a duty to utilise that information in such a manner that the suspect may be brought before an impartial and competent court and tried by it as quickly as possible. That was, and still is the only aim with regard to Mr Grosskopf. The assistance of the media and the public in this regard was, is, and always will be crucially important.

If the information were to be withheld because we were afraid of hurting the feelings of innocent people, and children and other members of the public were to die as a result of our silence, what would be said then? The very same people who are upset with me now would make far more serious allegations against me.

How would I then look the mother or father of a child who had died as a result of this, in the eye? What would I say if they were to tell me: “You knew”? I am now receiving letters and calls from parents who are making precisely this point to me. I have a duty, a bounden duty towards innocent people which, in my view, I have best served by acting in this manner.

Thirdly, however, we could differ with one another with regard to the entire matter until the cows came home, but that would not bring about any progress in the matter. There is, however, one infallible method of settling the matter: Mr Grosskopf should hand himself over to the SAP so that all the information and evidence which we have at our disposal may be tested by a competent court—a court which in considering the facts of the matter would in no way be influenced by statements and interpretations by a Minister or anyone else for that matter. I have already told hon members that that is the only design we have on him.

We shall respect the judgement of the judiciary—guilty or not guilty. If he is not guilty, I shall share in the joy of Mrs Grosskopf and her family and offer my apologies. However, if, by my actions so far and for the future, I have saved the life of just one defenceless, innocent South African, I am grateful and I do not apologise to anyone.

I am being reproached for the way in which I performed my duty, but not a single word is spoken about Mr Grosskopf, who refuses to come forward and state his side of the matter. Why does he remain silent if he is innocent?

I should like to inform hon members that the SAP has just arrested a White man who is a trained ANC terrorist. This person is being interrogated at present and has indicated that he recently moved in Grosskopf’s company overseas. Consequently, Mr Grosskopf must know about his parents’ concern and their sorrow. If he is innocent, why does he not do something about the matter? He could. It is in his hands.

In conclusion, I want to say that hon members of the Opposition are the last people who can talk and who can quarrel with me owing to the fact that people have been found guilty on the strength of untried evidence. We are prepared to submit our evidence to a court. We invite those people to come forward, because we want to submit it.

Alongside the road of public life in South Africa there are many wrecks of people who were condemned through untried evidence by people who never had any intention of submitting it to any court.

I should also like to dwell for a few moments on a related matter, namely the sharp accusations, particularly from left-wing radical circles, that the SAP is doing nothing to solve certain cases and that we are simply allowing people to disappear. In this regard I am referring to the most recent incidents of Khotso House, Cosatu House, Khanya House, Matthew Goniwe and Mr Stanza Bopape. The hon member for Claremont referred to him yesterday, and for this reason I should like to dispose of this matter immediately. Scandalous and untrue propaganda against the Police is being made and disseminated in this regard.

In order to put paid to the serious allegations, I appointed a special investigative team last year under the personal command of Maj Gen Joubert, Deputy Chief of the Criminal Investigation Department, to investigate these matters. These intensive investigations by a team of top detectives soon brought certain interesting facts and information to light, facts and information based on scientifically controllable data, affidavits, etc. However, when we made them public on 10 January 1989, a torrent of indignation was unleashed. This was ostensibly untried evidence and speculation and I had ostensibly remained silent with regard to certain facts. The indignation came particularly from left-wing circles, because we had ostensibly levelled accusations at left-wing radicals. Not a word was said about the same information with regard to rightist and extreme right-wing organisations. We never attempted to suggest that these facts and this information had been tested in a court of law. We simply said: “investigations have so far revealed”, “according to information”, “the possibility is presently being investigated” and that we were searching for certain “suspects”.

We made the provisional data public, on the one hand because we wished to provide information, but particularly because we wished to enlist the assistance of the public to help us to obtain more information. We are serious about solving these cases. This is very important to us. We are not going to fold our arms and do nothing. As the investigation has progressed, certain further information has come to light, and I should like to share it with hon members.

With regard to the controversy surrounding a hole in the fence at Cosatu House, the Police have since established by means of affidavits that this hole had already existed for quite some time before the explosion. Furthermore, it only provides access to the backyard and not to the building itself. It would now appear from the information gathered by way of affidavits that in reality an escape route existed in case of Police raids.

Insofar as Khotso House is concerned, the Police hunt for three suspected terrorists who could furnish more information, continues unabated. However, the Police investigation has since brought the following facts to light. In one of the badly damaged motor vehicles which was parked on the basement level, the Police found various documents and books which, it would now appear, belonged to one Mr Khotso Chikane. It has been established that this vehicle was the property of an occupant of Khotso House. Among the documents that were found, however, there was an identity document of a certain Kgoro William Mabodja. This man died on 7 September 1988 when he became the victim of his own planned terrorist act against defenceless people, in that a limpet mine apparently exploded prematurely at the Northpark Plaza in Northcliff. The SAP has already on various occasions requested those persons who received hospital treatment after the explosion to contact the Police. Not one of them has as yet done so. Neither were the Police able to trace those persons at the addresses which were furnished by them.

As to the fire at Khanya House and the possible involvement of Mr Strydom, the self-acknowledged leader of the so-called “Wit Wolwe”, I am both unable and unwilling to pass any further comment on that now owing to the sub judice rule. I wish to repeat what I said in my statement: I regard the incidents as serious misdemeanours. For this reason I wish to assure hon members that the Police will leave no stone unturned in solving these cases.

Another case is that of Matthew Goniwe and others. In this instance certain thinly veiled accusations against the Police have been disseminated over a period of many months. We have, in so many words, been accused of the murder of the activists. Since then, however, a competent court has passed judgment at the post-mortem examination. I shall quote the judgment to hon members in a single sentence:

That was the finding of the magistrate. In this regard there is now a post mortem silence! The New Nation of 23 February to 1 March 1989 went so far as to give particular prominence to the allegations in a report under the heading “Inquest hears Goniwe killers could be Police”. Surely this newspaper knows full well that many people only look at the headings and do not read any further. Such headings, which leave lasting impressions, are false and devoid of all truth.

†I want to refer briefly to the question of Mr Stanza Bopape. The most recent incident in which the SAP have been defamed and besmirched, and in which the hon member for Claremont participated with great gusto, is that with regard to Mr Bopape.

On 12 June 1988 Mr Bopape escaped from police custody while he was being taken out to indicate to investigating officers certain spots in connection with acts of terror in which he was allegedly involved. These acts included amongst others, the terror attack at Sterland in Pretoria on 15 April 1988. I disclosed these facts, together with other information, on a confidential basis to his father.

An intensive investigation which was conducted in respect of Mr Bopape’s movements after his escape, has now resulted in the Police having tracked down persons who have stated under oath that they have seen Mr Bopape after his escape. In one incident he was observed and recognised in the vicinity where an act of terror was perpetrated and in which people were killed. These allegations can be tested in an open court if Mr Bopape hands himself over to the SAP.

To once and for all put paid to any further insinuations regarding the so-called disappearance of activists, I have given instructions that a special investigation team under the competent leadership of Major-General Jaap Joubert must once again examine all case dockets in this regard. I would also like to appeal to anyone who possibly has any further information regarding any of these incidents to contact the SAP. We want to investigate these allegations to their fullest extent and we urgently need their help.

*So much for those points. I want to deal very briefly with the representations which hon members made in their speeches. There is not much time and I shall deal with them very briefly.

The hon member for Durban Point, who has apologised for being unable to be present here, said some fine words about the Police, for which I thank him. He has a problem in his constituency in the Durban area. We shall go and visit him and see whether we can help him to solve his problem.

The hon indirectly elected member Dr Gelden-huys referred to the Child Protection Unit. I should just like to tell him that a course for members of the Child Protection Unit, which will run from 19 April to 7 July, is already in progress. Members of the West Rand Division have also been nominated to attend the course. At the end of the course these members will be used specifically to investigate and deal with crime against children on the West Rand. The hon member expressed the idea that the counterinsurgency unit ought to be taken over by the Defence Force. This idea has been advanced on a previous occasion and was given thorough consideration. It is a very complex matter, which must be handled with circumspection. It could give rise to a great deal of controversy if we did not handle it with circumspection. Whereas the hon member’s objective is to save on manpower, we must also be careful not to duplicate. We must save on manpower. The combating of terrorism and insurgency is by law the appointed task of the Police and they execute that task with the assistance and support of the Defence Force. They are taking extremely successful action as a team. My considered opinion at this stage is that we should rather maintain the status quo. The Defence Force can assist us with national servicemen. We shall be able to put them to very good use for other tasks such as, for example, “the bobby on the beat”, and other similar tasks. It is also true that the Defence Force is attempting to lighten the burden borne by the Citizen Force and the commandos, and we must take all these things into consideration.

The hon member for Rissik referred to the 75th anniversary celebrations of the SAP. I thank him very much for an outstanding contribution. He spoke about the special constables, and I thank him for that.

The hon member for North Rand made an excellent contribution with regard to motor vehicle theft. He gave us some good tips which we can pay heed to and which we may put into effect. They will help us.

The hon member for Umhlatuzana made a first-rate contribution. When one listened to him, one felt a warmth in one’s heart as a policeman. The hon member referred to the Group Areas Act.

The hon member for Ermelo also referred to that this afternoon. The investigations into contraventions of the Group Areas Act are conducted by special units, and where there are no special units this is done by the detective branch. It could possible be a detective constable who conducts the investigations, but then this in any event takes place under the guidance and control of senior and experienced officers. I should like to give the hon member for Umhlatuzana that assurance.

The hon member for Rylands referred to the problem of crime on trains. I want to agree with him that this is a worrying problem. However, when one considers the tremendous extent of the problem which we have to counteract, one will understand what we are up against. I should like to highlight a few examples to hon members. In order to place the extent of the problem in perspective, I must mention that the Western Province division is served by 734 trains per 24-hour period. I mention this merely as an example. Furthermore, 470 000 commuters make use of that suburban train service.

We are equally concerned about crime on trains, but it is an incredible task to place enough people on all the trains to protect commuters against everything that could happen to them. I wish to assure the hon member for Rylands, however, that we are concerned about this. We are taking as many steps as possible to combat this problem.

The hon member for Mooi River has apologised for being unable to be here. He had some fine words to say about the Police, and I thank him for them.

I see the hon member for Claremont is not here now. That hon member had a kind word or two for the Police yesterday. I should like to thank him for that. We know that he is having a problem in joining the DP. I have decided that if his application for membership is not successful, I shall make a recommendation to the Commissioner, in view of his experience in the Black residential areas—after all, he is forever snooping around there. I should like to recommend that he be appointed for a trial period as a “kitskonstabel”! [Interjections.] I do not know whether they will take him, but if they will appoint him for a trial period, he may be able to help us there.

The hon member attempted once again yesterday to place the Police in a poor light by referring to the action of the Police in the so-called “Witdoeke”, KTC and Crossroads case. I went and had a look at the court documents and at his evidence in court. When that hon member was questioned in court with regard to the so-called elements in the Force who had co-operated with the “Witdoeke”—and he repeated that here yesterday—he said that he had no evidence in this regard. He said that he could not identify the so-called elements and that he had never seen the so-called elements in the company of the “Witdoeke”. That is what he said in court when he was questioned about this. Yesterday he came and said all sorts of things here. One simply wonders why the hon member goes about things in this way. With those few words I shall resume my seat so that other hon members may speak a little further.

Mr Chairman, we have for the year under review a Police Force of some 60 878 to keep an eye on a population of over 30 million citizens. This is an impossible task in any language. I want to compare this to sport. When Transvaal plays rugby against Western Province, there are 15 players on each side. Still, one side always wins, be it Transvaal or Western Province. The same applies to cricket or any other sport.

Because of the disparity in the Police Force, I believe that they are in a no win situation. The hon the Minister must be given more money to increase the Force to at least double the present number. Only then can hon members question him, but not until that is done.

I believe that the Police Force is doing a very good job under the circumstances. Members of the SAP are expected to excel at covering a wide spectrum of crime prevention, such as crimes against property, crimes of violence and morality crimes, to mention just a few. I will therefore deal with the importance of training in this debate.

The persistent determination of requirements by means of inspections, investigations and observations shows that commanders on station, district and divisional levels of the SAP have a great need for experience in management training. In most cases these officers only underwent a candidate officer’s course before they joined the officers corps. Although they were entrusted with more responsibility when promoted to a higher post, they did not receive any training to improve their management skills for these higher posts.

Their position is in some respects like that of hon members in the House of Delegates. That is why I have called for an Ombudsman to direct and discipline these hon members. Hopefully this will put a stop to the practice that people without qualifications and training move to and fro for positions.

The Management Development Division was therefore founded to improve the members’ knowledge, skill and attitude regarding management in general and was focussed on the overcoming of this deficiency. It further served as a sifting process during which future middle and top level managers were identified and also to determine more appropriate merits for promotions.

This division consists of a number of senior officers who have both academic and practical backgrounds and are responsible for the presentation of the Junior, Middle, Senior and Top Management Development Courses. I want to comment on the excellent role played by Capt Indira Chetty and Col Morgan Chetty, the principals of the women’s and men’s colleges respectively, for the high standard they have instilled in the Indian female and male police officers. Hopefully they will one day be entrusted with training officers of all race groups.

The following subjects are presented during these courses: public administration, police science, sociology, political science, business and personnel management, the National Security Management System, inter cultural relations and riot control. During the various courses officers receive tuition in management development which is offered by the South African Institute for Behavioural Sciences and includes the evaluation and development of management skills, psychological evaluation and advice and selfenrichment seminars.

In addition to contributions from their own ranks, assistance is also given by academics from various universities and other tertiary institutions, as well as competent people from other government departments. Thorough planning and utilisation of experts from these academic and practical fields over a wide spectrum, ensure the success of this training.

After completion of the training programme, measures that already exist and which are further defined to integrate management training with other personnel processes are used as criteria for evaluation to ensure that management training programmes are aimed at requirements and are of a high standard. It also serves as an indication for the determination of remedial management training programmes and ensures that this newly acquired knowledge is applied in day to day management. The need for training cannot be over-emphasised. Training will eventually pay dividends.

In the light of the present political and social climate, unique management skills are expected from officers in the SAP. Modern management practices are therefore the only instruments with which these demands can be successfully complied with, and I wish to congratulate the hon the Minister for a step in the right direction. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to follow the hon member for Umzinto. I want to thank him for the view he gave of police training and for the sympathy he expressed with the forces. I shall do so later.

*Today I want to go back to the hon member for Ermelo, the CP’s spokesman on Police. In this respect I associate myself with the hon member for Vryburg. It was astounding to hear the hon CP members state in this Committee today that they would give policemen increases, that they would reduce the Force and that they would keep all kinds of promises to the staff. However, if we compare these statements with their official policy documents and with their declared Police policy, we read the following:

They further say the following in respect of the Coloureds and Indians in their Programme of Principles:

It is therefore a state within a state, or a police force within a police force. It cannot possibly be cheaper and it cannot possibly work. Hon members themselves know that a terrorist or criminal cannot distinguish between Black and White and does not ask whether a person is young or old, male or female—he simply attacks. The enemy or a criminal has no regard for anyone; he will also have no regard for the CP. The loyalty of the Forces of this country is to South Africa.

Since the time when women joined the Police Force in 1958 the number of women in the Force has increased to 4 489, out of a grand total of 67 241, over a period of 30 years up to 1988. If we look at the distribution of posts filled by women, then we see that there are 177 officers, of whom 3 are Asians, and that there are 62 women in the specialised units. In the total distribution of women in the Force there are 3 160 Whites, 348 Coloureds, 200 Asians and 542 Blacks.

Why am I saying this? I am saying this to show hon CP members that we all live in this country together, and that we are jointly responsible for the security of this country and the Security Forces. Law and order is maintained in this country regardless of race or colour, and it is maintained by men and women, young and old. There is always a policeman on duty.

To illustrate the absurdity of the Official Opposition’s policy, I wish to read to the Committee from a police report as follows:

I want to ask hon CP members what a Coloured or Indian member would have done if a similar request had been made to them. Would he have gone out to help? Would he have got involved in the incident, or would he have refused to help? We would like hon members to explain this to us, because it sounds misleading and absurd when we compare it with their statement of policy. In a job such as policing one leans on one’s friend, one relies on one’s colleague, and it is true that in the Police Force every person makes a difference.

A competition entitled “You make a difference” is being held for the women in the Force this year. This is one of the projects being launched to promote the positive image of the Force—in this case specifically that of policewomen. The competition culminates in the designation of the Policewoman of the Year at a gala function in Pretoria on 27 October. Every finalist will receive from the hon the Minister a certificate signed by him. Mrs Corrie Vlok’s active involvement with the SA Police is apparent from the fact that the Corrie Vlok Floating Trophy will be awarded to the winner at that function. The winner will also receive an additional award, as well as prize money.

As regards the task of the Force, the spies of our times probably captured the attention of the general public and television viewers in particular this year. Here the women in the Police Force once again drew attention. I am thinking of Olivia Forsyth and Joy Harnden in particular. Olivia Forsyth was treated very cruelly during her detention and interrogation by the ANC. International organisations concerned with the protection of human rights, as well as those who sympathise with the ANC-SACP alliance, should take note of this.

According to newspaper reports another group of women have gone to Harare to hold discussions. They say that they want peace, but surely we all do. They say that apartheid must be abolished, but what about violence? The DP, as we know, have strong family ties with these friends of theirs and if they feel like replying, we should like to know what their point of view in this regard is. [Interjections.]

If the spies’ activities do not convince hon members that terrorists do not distinguish between targets and that there is no discrimination in the police force as far as the work is concerned, they will probably never understand it.

However, the women are protected and are not used for combating riots. If they stay behind at the offices on their own, they perform all the policing functions. However, if one looks at the work they do in the Force, one finds them wherever there are blue uniforms. One finds that they are detectives, but they are also musicians, instructors, social workers, pharmacists, veterinary nurses, forensic analysts in the laboratories and even artists, patrol-car drivers, photographers, fingerprint experts and so on.

With their inner strength, firm convictions and keen sense of duty the women in the Police Force have, over a short period of 16 years, become one of the pillars supporting the Force. At present there are two women serving as chairwomen of the League, which does important work for the pensioners.

Today I want to thank every member of the Police Force, and in particular the women and their commander, Brig Homan, for the work they are doing for us. We pay tribute to Brig Homan’s predecessor. Brig Botha.

We pay the highest tribute to every member of the SAP who has made the ultimate sacrifice and we convey our sincere condolences to their next of kin. In this year of the woman, 1989, we would like to say thank you very much for what the SAP does for us, South Africa and every inhabitant of our beautiful country, regardless of race or sex.

Mr Chairman, I should like to join other hon members who spoke during this debate in paying tribute to members of the SAP who made the supreme sacrifice in the execution of their duties. We honour their memory and their families are in our thoughts. This applies equally to members of the Force who were so badly injured that they will no longer be able to carry out their normal duties.

It is not every day that I can thank the hon the Minister of Law and Order, but on this occasion I should like to thank the hon the Minister, on behalf of my constituency, for the building complex that is at present being built at Vreden-dal. The hon the Minister knows what that complex means to us. Provision is also being made for the accommodation of Police personnel who will be transferred there.

Today I should like to talk to the hon the Minister about a few matters. I do not want to clash with him, but rather have a few pleasant words with him about several matters which affect our community in particular. Firstly I want to talk about employment. As hon members know, all the members of the respective communities must be screened, particularly in the rural areas, and in most cases the screening is done by Whites. Of course, Coloured police officers usually have a much better knowledge of their own people, because they all attend the same churches and schools, are members of the same rugby clubs and move in the same social circles. The question is whether all applications from the cities are properly screened.

Many of those people are strangers and screening takes place mainly on the basis of testimonials, and most testimonials are, after all, stereotyped. It is important that when screening is done, other community leaders should also be involved and that their contributions should also be found necessary in this regard.

The existing system of special constables must be done away with. Too much has already been said and written about them. It is detrimental to the image of the SA Police. However, it is vital that when we replace them, somebody else should be in a position to perform the service.

They have also furnished a very good service in the past. However, the past behaviour of some special constables has made it necessary for the special constabulary to be dissolved. I want to propose that persons with, for example, Std 8 or Std 9 should be employed. Here I am thinking for instance, of young White men who have completed their national service. Coloured, Asian and Black voluntary national servicemen can also be involved in the Force in this way. These people are particularly familiar with firearms, having used them for a full two years. They also know military discipline and have usually been on duty in road-blocks and done guard duty. During their national service they can be trained for approximately six weeks to two months, because these people have already undergone at least two years military training during their national service.

Because many of these people were also instructors during their period of national service, they can be used to train those who do not have a military background. Such people can undergo a three-month period of training at the very least. Because border duty was part of their task in the Defence Force, they can be put to good use in those services.

At present South Africa is not in a state of war with our neighbouring states. Therefore our Defence Force will not be active on the borders of our neighbouring states. The same uniform as that worn by the present special constables could be issued to these people. Courses on riot control could be provided for them on a continual basis, and this should be regarded as their primary task. The policemen in the Permanent Force would then be free to perform other services in the community.

In order to move away from the stigma attached to the special constables which such a trained person would have to bear, consideration could be given to something like a protection service unit. When they have passed Std 10 these people to whom I am now referring, who have passed Std 8 or 9 and who were in the Defence Force, could be given an opportunity to improve their academic qualifications even further. They could then be transferred to the Permanent Force of the Police.

I also want to say something in regard to training. At passing-out parades and shows it is clear that training in the Police Force is of a very high standard. It is clear from the many complaints among various communities and even in the House—something hon members have mentioned here—that some members of the SA Police do not behave themselves properly. It is also true that in such cases the hon the Minister and the Police as a whole are disgraced. We are aware of instances in which the Commissioner and the hon the Minister have taken firm action against such persons, and we are grateful for that.

In order to lend a further hand in this regard I want to propose that human relations, taught by a professional person be included as a subject in the course and regarded as a priority. I propose that as proof that such persons have completed this subject, a certificate be issued by the SA Police to prove that they are, in fact, capable of sound human relations in their dealings with the public.

I propose that when such an examination is written, the Police should receive contributions from the communities in which those young policemen are active, in order to learn how they behave towards the normal public, and how their human relations can benefit the Police. Many people are grateful for the friendly policeman who still exist, and they send letters to newspapers, magazines and even to the hon the Minister to express their gratitude.

There are great shortcomings as the Police College at Bishop Lavis, and I should like to make an urgent request to the hon the Minister for the Police College to forge ties with other academic institutions such as universities, colleges and schools. Even visits between Police youth organisations and Christian youth organisations could be organised.

This should allow police-students to feel themselves to be part of the community, and young people in the community could then see the other side of the policeman and policewoman. Too many people still regard the policeman as traitors in our community and not as part of the community.

Policemen and policewomen also keep aloof from the young people in the community. The community is only aware of someone with handcuffs and the revolver who can deprive them of their freedom if necessary. It is an experience to hear the Police choirs of the Police colleges at Paarl East, Bishop Lavis and Oudtshoorn and the orchestra perform. Many a person in the audience has wiped away a tear while listening to them. Wherever these people have performed, they have usually been asked to perform again. Unfortunately they are practically never available because of transport problems or other services they have to perform.

A unit for the Christian Action in the SAP should be established, one which would always be available on invitation. Altogether too little is done to project the image of the policeman as a Christian. Chaplains in the SAP do wonders for our men and women and for their next of kin when a member dies.

I am aware that there is a glimmer of light, but I just want to say one thing to the hon the Minister. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I believe the hon member for Vredendal made a constructive speech, which demonstrated that he had devoted quite a lot of time to his preparation. I would like to congratulate him on it.

I will deal with some of the subjects in the seven minutes which I have available, and I would like to talk about crime in my constituency and crime in general. If I may, I would also briefly like to talk about the threat to the creation of a western democratic political and economic system in the post-apartheid South Africa.

One of the tragedies of Africa is that people who use violence in the belief that it is the only way in which one can put an end to violence, have been put into power. We now see the risk of that happening again in Namibia. Yet there is an alternative to putting into power people who use violence to put an end to violence.

On the question of crime I would specifically like to deal with a number of matters, the first of which is that I believe people must be taught to protect themselves and to protect their homes. The rich can afford to protect their homes. They can put up burglar-proofing and install burglar alarms; they can employ watchmen and electronic devices. The ordinary man, however, finds it difficult to do that.

There is a scheme in existence which has received very little publicity, but which is also wholly inadequate. I would like to appeal that a scheme be inaugurated to enable people who cannot afford it, to have security devices installed in their homes. Secondly, concessions should be given to the aged of South Africa who live alone and who do not have telephones, in order to enable them to have telephones as a safety measure. I believe that it is an important means of communication when one is in danger.

I also believe that it is necessary that the public be trained to a far greater extent in order to protect themselves. They should be taught what to do, to stay away from unsafe areas and to stay away from certain areas at unsafe times.

I must tell hon members that in recent times I have had two meetings, in two suburbs of my constituency, each of which was attended by over 300 people, where the purpose was to establish communications between the Police and the people themselves. The Police made themselves available, heard what the people had to say, put their case across, answered questions and, I think, did more for public relations between the public and the Police than could be done by many other actions.

I would like to appeal for more meetings between the public and the Police for this interchange of opinion so that there is greater understanding in that area. I would like to pay tribute to those policemen who are prepared to make themselves available outside hours, in their own time and in circumstances which are inconvenient to them in order to create that kind of relationship.

Also, when it comes to the question of neighbourhood watches, in my own area the Police helped with the establishment of this programme. They go out of their way to do this and see to it that the public is educated and helped to participate in these schemes. I think that the concept that people must help themselves and also help their neighbours is so important. They must not close their eyes to what is going on.

When it comes to the Police themselves, I would like, before dealing with them directly, to talk for a moment about the Police Reserve. I believe that not enough recognition is given to the people who render that service. I think they could be used to greater advantage. Maybe some of the people who are not that fit could be used in order to relieve others. I would like to see a review of that whole system in order to get greater public involvement.

The question of patrols is an important one. We have heard talk about the shortage of vehicles. I have had exactly the same experience. The Police should get more vehicles in order to do patrolling. Regarding the question of neighbour hood police stations, the hon the Minister knows that I will not leave him alone until I get the police station in Sandringham in my constituency. However, that is not the point. Neighbourhood police stations are good for law and order. That is the issue. I also must tell hon members that I find it sad that the evidence given to the Joint Committee on Finance is that there is room for another 2 500 policemen, which we need, but we cannot get those policemen because the money has not been voted for them. There is a misstatement of priorities in this regard.

If I may, I would just like to give hon members a short quotation which is relevant to something which happened in my constituency. It comes from a document issued by Idasa, which gives us democratic guidelines for South Africa regarding the ANC. In it the following statement is made, and I quote:

I would like to ask what I tell the people in my constituency when a limpet mine is placed in a park next to a police station, when, fortunately, the police station is not damaged, and the only damage is to the surrounding houses. Can I tell them that this is a misunderstood actor in the South African scene? I would like to know whether in fact violence has stopped. If so, what is that limpet mine doing in my constituency? There are others who can do exactly the same thing. What do I tell the people about this misunderstanding?

I would like to invite the people who are the apologists for violence in South Africa to say where I am misunderstanding violence. To me a limpet mine is a limpet mine and a bomb is a bomb and a gun is a gun. I think we have to get it clear in South Africa that one cannot have misunderstanding when that is taking place. I think we need to make this clear.

We also need to look at what kind of society is in fact sought to be set up in South Africa, and whether in fact the constitutional provisions which are set out in the document which this organisation issues, constitute the kind of constitution we want. I want to say that they are not in favour of the kind of democracy which we in South Africa believe in and we are in political competition with that organisation. [Time expired.]

Order! The hon member for Bonte-heuwel may now proceed from where he was interrupted.

Mr Chairman, I will not proceed from where I left off because there is a matter which I must first rectify.

†In the previous debate on law and order the CP said some very ugly things about Coloured, Indian and Black policemen. I just want to tell the outside world that I think we are dealing with hypocrites here. Yesterday the hon member for Ventersdorp and today the hon member for Ermelo said that they are grateful to all the policemen for the work they do. However, last week I told the hon member for Potgietersrus that he is too young to be so “verkramp”. This hon member said in the debate on the law and order Vote that he believed in a Whites only police force. The CP must tell South Africa and the non-White policemen where they stand with regard to security. They are obsessed with a divided South Africa. The CP is obsessed with group rights in South Africa and their policy is only damaging our policemen. The hon member for Potgietersrus asked why the White police college students are subject to constant mixing. The taxpayers no longer want to pay for separateness in this country. He also asked why their White boys are forced to share a dining hall and a sleeping area with people of colour. I am surprised that a White person should say those words. If he read his history books, he would know that when Jan van Riebeeck arrived at the Cape, he did not ask any girl whether she was White or Black, he slept with her, and that one cannot deny.

I think it is time that the CP grew out of their ancient colonial tribal White instincts. The CP does not want peace in South Africa. In actual fact they want friction in this country. I do not know why they fear Blacks because—the Police will tell them this—the statistics show that more Whites were not murdered by Blacks in this country, but that more Whites were murdered by Whites. In fact, more Whites were not raped by Blacks in this country, but more Whites were raped by Whites. As far as assaults, too, are concerned, the fear does not relate to White against Black or Black against White. They have disowned our people in this country. I cannot condone any raping, whatever the colour of the person’s skin is, and I cannot condone any assault even if a White person is involved. Action must be taken against this. The CP must, however, realise that the problem in our country does not lie with the Blacks. When we talk about sacrifices, it is true that Blacks have sacrificed a little more. The CP must thank God for the Blacks who took them to the Transvaal, because when the Whites came to the Cape from Holland in 1652, the Whites had no knowledge of how to trek with oxen and an ox-wagon.

*It was us, the “Hotnots”, who had to show the White people how to trek with the ox-wagon. [Interjections.] It was us, the “Hotnots”, who had to show the Whites how to trek with an ox-wagon. It was us, the Hotnots, who had to show the Whites where the water-holes were.

The CP should tell us today, or at the next opportunity they have, whether they are grateful to all the policemen, and whether they are only grateful to White policemen in this country.

†Mr Chairman, I wish to conclude by referring to something which we have already spoken about, namely this particular school in Valhalla Park. I told hon members that there had not been any disruptions whatsoever at that school. In fact, that school had a 97% to 100% attendance record. Because of this, I want to stress what one hon member stated very clearly and that is that the onslaught is against all facets of South Africa and all its people.

What surprises me is that school boycotts are no longer organised by Std 9 and 10 pupils. They are organised by Std 6 and 7 pupils. Our young children who watch television daily, see the unrest in the Gaza Strip and the Middle East. No wonder these children think it is the “in” thing to throw stones at men in uniform. I believe that television plays a definite role as far as violence is concerned. I think we need to address that kind of violence that is shown on our television screens.

We need to help and assist our vulnerable youth by showing them that political power does not grow out of the barrel of a gun. One newspaper wrote about the “zip guns” that are made by school children. They ran an article on this in the newspaper last Sunday. The newspaper wanted to know what the House of Representatives was doing about it. They wanted to smear the ruling party in the House of Representatives black, because of the fact that school children are making “zip guns”.

Two years ago I warned Parliament about what was happening. Today we are seeing the consequences. In certain areas school gangs organise themselves with the express purpose of intimidating non-violent groups in schools. School gangs organise themselves to terrorise students who want to write examinations. These are the times we are living in. These activists have not finished with our schools. They have not finished with our children. They have not finished with our community. We will have to counter their actions. These men in uniform protect us. It is immaterial to them what the colour of our skin is.

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure for me to speak after the hon member for Bonteheuwel. It is a great pleasure to be participating in this debate, mainly because I have such a high regard for the work which the men and women of the SAP do. They work in difficult conditions, often in the face of great provocation, often at times when they should actually have been off duty long ago. However, they work in the interests of South Africa and of every person who is well-intentioned towards the future of this country.

I also want to express a sincere word of appreciation to the men and women in the Force in my constituency, Graaff-Reinet, for the sincere cooperation I enjoy. I want to refer specifically to the two District Commandants, Colonel Maritz in Graaff-Reinet and Colonel Zandberg in Mid-delburg, Cape. I actually want to express a few thoughts with regard to stock-theft, one of the oldest crimes in South Africa. In fact, continuous stock theft across the border as early as 1838 was one of the causes which lead to the Great Trek. During 1988, a total of 21 671 stock thefts were reported, in which livestock to the value of approximately R40 million was stolen. Of this, livestock to the value of R18 000 was recovered.

At the moment there are 49 stock theft units in the RSA. These stock theft units consist of White, Black and Coloured members who function effectively together as teams. In the 1989 year book of the SAP, members of the stock theft units are described as follows:

Motor cycles, horses, sheep dogs and helicopters form part of their equipment. Members of the stock theft units often spend two to three weeks per month in the veld. Basically they are only with their families for seven days per month. Their work is often done in the most uninhabitable parts of the country. Here we think particularly of the Maluti mountains and the Drakensberg where stock thieves like to strike. Snow and biting cold make effective action virtually impossible.

There are eight stock theft units in the Transvaal, six in the Free State, 15 in Natal and 18 in the Cape Province. In those areas which are not served by stock theft units, stock thefts are investigated by a detective branch. However, tendencies are continually being monitored and stock theft units are formed where necessary.

Over the years, the stock theft units have built up a good understanding with the police forces of Lesotho, Swaziland, Botswana and the TBVC countries, and excellent co-operation takes place. With regard to the self-governing states, there are also no obstacles in the investigation into and curtailing of stock theft. I would like to mention a few examples of the good co-operation to which I referred. During 1988, for example, seven stock control actions were carried out in co-operation with the Royal Lesotho Mounted Police in Lesotho. Stock to the value of more than R350 000 was recovered and 22 people were arrested. Members of the Royal Lesotho Mounted Police worked directly with the stock theft units in the Free State for a period of three months on a rotation basis. Their horses are also shod by the SAP blacksmiths in Fouries-burg.

During 1988, there were also 57 stock control actions carried out in co-operation with the Transkeian Police in the Transkei. Stock to the value of more than R330 000 was recovered and 32 people were arrested. Last year 21 stock control actions were carried out in co-operation with the Police of KwaZulu. Here stock to the value of more than R300 000 was recovered and 52 people were arrested.

The activities of the stock theft units are coordinated by Captain Pieter Lategan at the detective branch. It is very clear that the interests of the farmer enjoy high priority in the SAP. The congresses of the National Wool Growers’ Association of South Africa were attended by the chief of the criminal investigation department, Lieutenant-General A B Conradie and by Captain Lategan. Lieutenant-General Conradie addressed these congresses and there is a great deal of appreciation for the fact that such a senior officer has the interests of the farmer at heart to such an extent.

The congresses of the Red Meat Producers’ Organisation was attended by Captain Lategan. During these congresses an appeal was made—I would like to support it very strongly—that the Livestock Brands Act, Act No 87 of 1962, should be made compulsory for all farmers in the whole of South Africa. It appears from the report that the investigation of the hon the Minister of Justice into stock theft, which was published on 17 February 1989, that the identification of stock during court cases is one of the greatest problems encountered by stock theft units. It makes conviction difficult, while the owners of recovered stock cannot be traced. If this law, together with the Stock Theft Act, Act No 57 of 1959 were to be strictly enforced, the SA Police would be able to act preventively with regard to stock theft.

However, it is true that many farmers are careless and do not complete removal certificates properly when their stock is transported by someone else. According to the stock theft units it is also rare that a document of identification in terms of section 6 of the Stock Theft Act, accompanies a transaction involving stock.

Further opportunities have also been created for the farmer to become involved in the curtailing of stock theft and in the protection of his interests. Stock theft information centres have been formed to bring about closer liaison between the farmer and the member of the stock theft unit, and this is being successfully utilised in various places in the country to curtail stock thefts.

Since October 1988 the stock theft units also have instructions to investigate complaints with regard to the alleged smuggling of ivory and rhinoceros horns. Provisional investigations indicate that Jan Smuts airport in particular is being used to smuggle the products from South Africa to the East. Various sensitive investigations are under way and attempts are being made to identify some of the smuggling rings. Effective liaison has already been established with various foreign police forces and conservation organisations to attempt to curtail these activities.

I want to conclude by saying that the stock theft units are silently achieving great success. During 1987, the stock theft complaints decreased by 2,24% and in 1988 they decreased by a further 7,16%. At the moment there is a golden thread of co-operation running between members of the stock theft units of the SA Police on the one hand and the SA Agricultural Union and the farmers of South Africa on the other hand. This is something that we must cherish and expand further, because then, and then alone, will it be possible to effectively put paid to stock theft.

Mr Chairman, first of all I would like to reply to one or two things that the hon the Minister said. Firstly, I did not say that the indemnity clause was used by the Police as a cover for their actions. What I did say was that the indemnity clause encouraged the reckless and excessive use of powers by the Police which in turn has lead to additional compensation payments over the past year or two. I would like to put that right.

The other matter is that when the hon the Minister replies again—I see he has another turn—would he please reply to my question about the release of Section 29 detainees. Is it his intention to take the same sort of action that he took with the emergency detainees or do we have to wait for hunger-strikes before these people are going to be released?

Please say farewell!

Say farewell to whom? To you? Are you not coming back next time? [Interjections.]

The hon the Minister has not replied either to my query about the terrible restrictions that are placed on those detainees who have been released. How long is he going to keep them in this twilight existence where they cannot earn a living, are unable to leave their homes, and where life is simply imprisonment at home instead of behind bars in prison?

I now want to come to the hon the Deputy Minister. Two factors became very clear to me while he was speaking. The first is that he has launched his election campaign. He is in a marginal seat and he must get cracking very soon. He knows that and he is on the job—I hand that to him. However, I was not too sure of what he was trying to do. Was he trying to attract back dissident Nationalists in his own constituency who may be veering towards the CP, or was he doing a sort of overall job for the NP and trying to entice some DP supporters to vote for the NP as the lesser of two evils? It must have been one or the other. He had certainly started his election campaign—that was clear.

The other thing that became quite clear to me, is that the hon the Deputy Minister does not in fact understand the purpose of committee of supply. The purpose is not for the opposition parties to put their policies to Parliament, not at all.

Why did you do it in other Votes then?

One should not do it in other Votes. One should do it in the Budget and in the no confidence debate, but certainly not in committee of supply. That is meant for the opposition parties to reveal the sins of omission and commission of the Government and to get redress for those sins of omission and commission before we vote the money for the following year to the department in question. That is what it is all about.

Well, the hon the Deputy Minister has only been in Parliament for about 12 years and by the time he reaches my term of service, maybe he will understand what is the meaning of committee of supply. I leave that there. By the way, the purpose is also not to heap praise on the Ministers, their departments and the officials. As I say, give credit where it is due, if one wants to, but for the rest it is a matter of redress of grievances.

Since the hon the Deputy Minister nevertheless put a number of questions to me, as spokesman for the DP on law and order. I shall answer a few of those questions in the few minutes at my disposal.

We do not accept the Rabie Commission as the font of all wisdom. We made that clear in 1982 when we debated the Internal Security Act, which was based on the findings of the Rabie Commission.

That was the PFP. It was not the DP. What about Denis Worrall?

Well, the hon the Deputy Minister should ask him. I am not answering for anybody else. I can only tell him what I know of the DP.

The trouble with the Rabie Commission is that it did not recommend the scrapping of those objectionable provisions on our Statute Book which are tantamount to having a continued state of undeclared emergency in South Africa. I referred to this yesterday and I refer again to section 29 allowing indefinite detention without trial in solitary confinement for purposes of interrogation—that is tantamount to powers given in an undeclared state of emergency. That is the main reason why we were against the Rabie Commission. It also did not go into in-depth discussion on the actual conditions of detention without trial, the number of suicides in detention and so forth.

What we do agree with, is where the Rabie Commission says in its report that a state of emergency and emergency powers are certainly not the long-term answer for law and order in a country. We agree with that, because the laws have to be just if order is to be maintained. That is a very important message. That means the Government has to change the laws which are unjust if it wishes to have law and order maintained in South Africa. That is a point that I can never stress enough—the two go together.

There are times when a state of emergency may be declared, for instance during a declared state of war or when there is a national disaster. It may then be necessary for a state of emergency to be declared. However, the court must have the ultimate authority, not the Minister and not officials.

We do favour a national convention and, yes, the ANC must participate, otherwise it will be a non-starter. If Mandela is alive, he must participate as well.

With or without preconditions?

Wait a minute, nobody who advocates and practises violence, right-wing or left-wing, will be allowed to be present at the national convention. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, we have come to the end of a very interesting two-day debate. If there is one thing that is worrying me, it is that I am sorry that I shall not, in the available time, be able to reply to the very interesting points that were raised here.

†I am sorry that it will not be possible to reply to all the questions that hon members put to me. As I have promised, we will go through Hansard carefully and reply to hon members in writing, as we have done over the past two years.

*I want to make an observation at once and refer to the hon member for Houghton.

†She said I did not reply to the question about the restrictions, but I mentioned it in a speech yesterday in which I said it was necessary that I restrict the people whom I have released under certain conditions.

*The hon member also referred to the question of detention without trial—once again the same old story. We simply have to accept now that we differ fundamentally on this matter.

†We regard it as absolutely necessary to have this system of detention in terms of the emergency regulations, as well as of section 29 of the Act. It is not possible to carry on in this country without that.

*Therefore we simply have to accept that she differs with us. However, we shall continue to apply the system in a fair way and to keep the country safe so that the DP can continue to engage in their political activities in the way they want to do so. If we did not what we were doing, they would not be able to engage in their political activities.

The hon member asked how many people were being detained in terms of section 29 of the Act. At present there are 82 in detention. I should like to tell the hon member that these people are being detained as suspected terrorists. Secondly, we may only detain them for specific offences, and if they are of the opinion that we are detaining them unfairly and unjustly, and cannot detain them on those grounds, they can test us on this issue in the courts.

The hon member for Graaff-Reinet praised the Police and said that the Stock Theft Units of the Police were doing invaluable work. I want to agree with him and thank him for having said this.

I want to thank the hon member for Bonte-heuwel for an excellent speech. He spoke about the policewomen who were here, and he said the men were very smartly dressed. He has now taken off his glasses, but he himself is very smartly dressed today. Looking at him, once could say that he is a “fynlaken kerel”, as someone always used to say.

The hon member asked questions about his police station in Bonteheuwel. We shall look into the matter and provide him with feedback on it. He said they are going to have an open day there on 24 June. I want to thank him very much for inviting me—I shall see whether I can make it. In the meantime, however, I have discussed this matter with the Commissioner and with the responsible generals. We shall see whether we cannot arrange to have some of the Police units such as the helicopter and the dogs there, so that they can make it an even more attractive day.

I want to thank him for the initiative he is displaying in bringing the community and the Police together. It is a partnership and without the community the Police cannot do their work. We want to express our sincere gratitude to him and to other hon members who do this. We have great appreciation for it. We shall let him know. [Interjections.] Should we bring the dogs as well? Yes, we will. [Interjections.] No, we do not have any goats.

†The hon member for Umzinto spoke about training. This is a very high priority for the Police Force and he is 100% correct. It is a very important factor and we regard it as a very high priority.

*The hon member for Vredendal referred to employment and spoke about a different system of selection. He asked us to do this in a different way. I should like to tell him that we shall look into the matter. We have certain problems but. we shall look into the matter and we shall also provide him with feedback on these matters.

He then said a very important thing. He was referring to the question of human relations in the Force. I want to tell the hon member that this is an equally high priority for me. We work on it all the time. It is already included in the syllabuses which we offer and in the training of policemen. They are giving specific training in this aspect.

The hon member also spoke about the orchestras and choirs. In this connection I should like to associate myself with what the hon member said. Recently the Police Choir of Pretoria was invited to participate in an international choir festival and competition in Switzerland. They participated there from 29 March until 1 April. This choir also included non-White members.

Fifteen choirs from twelve different countries participated, and our choir was placed seventh out of the fifteen choirs. In the category 81% to 89%, this Police Choir of ours was placed first. Although it was generally known that all members of the choir were members of the SA Police, there were no demonstrations against our people.

The choir made many friends and were ambassadors for the SA Police and for South Africa. They appeared on radio and television. This just goes to show once again that something like music can be a very important instrument which we must use to demonstrate to people what is really happening to us internally. I want to thank the hon member for having raised this matter here.

The hon member for Macassar made a very good contribution. He made one very important point, namely that we should pay people overtime. The Police do not receive payment for overtime. I should also like to pay them overtime, but if we still have to find the money to pay the policemen for the great deal of overtime they have to work, our budget will have to increase very drastically. Hon members have already seen that we do not have enough money to employ more policemen. However, I am very pleased that the hon member mentioned it here. It gives us an opportunity once again to thank the Police for the incredibly many hours they are working overtime. All of them work overtime. If, for example, one considers the situation of the men working in the various drug units and the security branches, in all divisions, there is not a single policeman who is not working overtime. They do so without complaining because they are working in the interests of the Force, of the country and of its people. We should like to pay tribute to those who are prepared to work so hard.

†The hon member for Hanover Park spoke about gangs. I think he has a problem and we intend to try and solve the problem for him.

*We are not simply going to leave it. We are going to see what is going on there and we are going to see whether we cannot come to his assistance there.

The hon member for Ermelo began very well. He thanked the Police and I should like to thank him very much for those kind words. The hon member also asked us to look into a group insurance scheme. We are already doing so. We have called for quotations from large insurance companies to see whether we cannot introduce such a scheme. This is a very important matter to us.

Up to that point everything went well. Then he began to become confused. The hon member then said we did not have money to pay the Police because the Government was bankrupt. The hon member Mrs Jager referred to the fact that if we had to apply the CP policy in South Africa we would definitely go under, because then we would not have any money at all. I do not know where we would find money then. It would be nothing but wretchedness.

The hon member also said we should expand the Commercial Branch. We are looking into the situation because the workload there is very heavy at present. The hon member asked why the reservists had to work 16 hours. These are very long hours but they asked for those hours themselves. Once again, it simply goes to show the calibre of these people. These are people who are prepared to work 16 hours. We granted their request and we owe them a great debt of thanks. As I said yesterday, they are doing wonderful work for South Africa and we thank them very sincerely.

The hon member said that we should not exclude the politicians. It is the carefully considered standpoint of the SAP—and I share this standpoint—that we should keep party-politics out of the SAP. We must never include party-politics.

What about Bloomberg?

Was the hon the Minister not listening the other day? Was he asleep when I was speaking? The hon member for Bezuiden-hout is no longer an active police reservist. He was placed on the reserve list.

When did he cease to be a reservist?

When the hon member and his party began to bring this nonsense into the Police Force.

The hon member also said that he would tell us why policemen were resigning. He said the main reason was frustration. I want to quote to the hon members what the real reasons are. We instituted a scientific investigation into this matter. The hon member does not know what is going on in the Force. How would he know why policemen are resigning? He sits there guessing and then comes forward with this kind of nonsense. We instituted a scientific investigation. I should like to quote the reasons, in order of importance for policemen resigning. I shall now quote them:

1. 1. A better job.
2. 2. Further studies.
3. 3. Irregular working hours.
4. 4. The discharge of border and unrest duties.
5. 5. Financial considerations.
6. 6. Transfers.
7. 7. Miscellaneous other reasons.

The latter involves several reasons. The issue is not frustration. Here scientific research was carried out by the SAP unit especially established to do these things. Consequently the hon member must not set-up his own clay pigeons and shoot them down himself. He must look at the facts.

The hon member also mentioned the Group Areas Act, complaints under which are ostensibly not being investigated any more. We investigate all complaints, as we do any other offence. The hon member can pull a face at me if he likes, but this is a fact. We investigate all complaints, as we investigate any offence. The dossier is then submitted to the Attorney General for his decision.

Then he does nothing.

Why is the hon member quarreling with me about that? Why does he say the Police are frustrated? Surely he should discuss the matter with the hon the Minister responsible. The fact of the matter is that we investigate all cases without exception. The purpose of the instructions we gave in regard to the implementation of the Designation of Separate Amenities Act was precisely for the purpose of giving the policemen clear guidelines.

We went into a situation in South Africa in which, as a result of certain actions on the part of town and city councils and the Government, signs that were hurtful to people had been removed. What did we find? The CP town and city councils re-erected the signs. That is precisely what caused the confusion. We said we did not want to mar relations, we would prefer to give the police clear guidelines. That is precisely what we did. We made certain that they knew what it was all about.

The hon member Mrs Jager made an excellent contribution. She dealt with the hon member for Ermelo. She was a credit to women here to day. That is why I should like to say to her—she was unable to be present here and tendered her apology—that is she should perhaps decide to consider joining the Police Force, we shall very strongly consider appointing her.

†The hon member for Tafelberg, who is not here at the moment, requested me to employ her yesterday. We will consider employing the hon member for Tafelberg as well the hon member Mrs Jager—if they are interested.

*Our policewomen are stars, we can really thank them very sincerely for what they have done.

The hon member for Vryburg spoke about the child protection unit, and I am very pleased that he focussed attention on it. This is a very serious matter, which is of deep concern to the SAP. We are concerned on the one hand about our senior citizens, whom we want to protect better, and we are also concerned about the future of our country which we are trying to protect. I want to thank him for making a good contribution on this matter.

†The hon member Mr Razak spoke about the accommodation problem. This is a very serious problem and I want to assure him that it is a very high priority with the SAP. The problem is a lack of money. We are looking at the situation and we will see what we can do in this regard.

The hon member also spoke about an airstrip at Maleoskop. We need one there, but the problem is a lack of money. If we can have the money, we will build it. However, I thank the hon member for mentioning it.

The contribution of the hon member for Yeoville was once again a valuable one. He made suggestions regarding telephones for the aged, more meetings between the public and the Police, helping one’s neighbours, reservists, patrols, the lack of funds and. lastly, the question of violence. I think he made an invaluable speech. I want to assure him that I agree with him 100% in this regard.

*The ANC will have to decide what he wants to do. I want to say that the DP also have to decide what it wants to do in respect of the ANC. Let me tell hon members that it is an untenable situation in which we find ourselves, in which some members of the DP are embracing these violent miscreants, while other people inside the party say that they do not talk to these people. The standpoint of the Police on the matter is very clear. We say that we reject violence and stand for peace. We are prepared to work very hard for this.

Let me also say this today: The SAP does not prescribe what the policy of a political party should be. We stand aloof from politics. What we do want is that political activities should be conducted in a peaceful way in South Africa. That would make our task easier. It would be far more pleasant for us to be able to perform our crime-combating task in peace and help people. We want peace in South Africa, but the greatest inciter of violence, according to evidence, is the ANC. There is no other organisation that stirs up violence to a greater extent than the ANC. It is the ANC that is doing this. That is why the ANC will have to take a decision. It cannot carry on as it is doing now, and think that in this way it is going to take over South Africa.

The ANC cannot hope at any stage to take over this country by violent means. For that reason they must come to their senses. They must renounce violence and come back to South Africa so that we can together help build a truly democratic South Africa, and not a pseudodemocracy, like this story of a “non-racial democracy”. We now find that the same words which they use are now being used by Idasa and other organisations in South Africa. We shall have to sort out the things in future, and in the meantime the SAP is keeping a very careful eye on what is happening. We shall not relax our vigilance. We shall support all genuine peace efforts with might and main. I should very much like to give hon members that assurance.

I conclude by referring to the hon member for Robertson, who spoke yesterday. I want to thank him for his positive remarks. He referred to housing. We have a problem with housing and we are looking into it urgently. The hon member also spoke about friendliness and thoughtfulness. Together with the Commissioner and the general staff of the SAP—the top management—I am on a crusade to ensure that our policemen adopt a friendlier attitude to the public, and by this I mean all members of the public.

This brings me to my last few words, concerning the Commissioner of the SAP. This is the last debate which he will attend here in his official capacity as Commissioner of the SAP. For more than 40 years he has rendered excellent service to our country, to the Force and to the people of South Africa. As Commissioner of Police his achievements were excellent. He set a wonderful example in his years of service, as in fact he did throughout his entire career, to members of the Force. The successes of the past two to three years I should like to attribute, in a very large measure, to the way in which he fulfilled his task. I want to thank hon members for having received this and for also having mentioned it in the debate here.

Finally I should like to thank the staff of the Commissioner and I, and all who were involved in the preparation of this discussion for the assistance they gave hon members. Hon members referred to that as well. We are the winning team, and they are the people who make us a winning team.

Then, too, I want to thank you, Mr Chairman, for having controlled the debate so well from the Chair.

Mr Chairman, before we adjourned yesterday, the hon member for Bok-keveld made a very good speech. I want to thank him very sincerely for this. It was honey-sweet, almost like the apples from his part of the world. I just want to ask that we should be careful about rejecting computer instruction systems out of hand, because more and more countries throughout the world are making use of alternative methods of instruction in order to bring education budgets, which are becoming incredibly expensive to finance, within the limits of affordability.

Every year it is a privilege for me to participate in this debate and to express again our sincere thanks and appreciation to the hon the Minister, the hon the Deputy Minister and the officials for the work which this huge department does in the interests of such a large component of the South African population.

We also want to extend our thanks for the informative tours this department organised for members of Parliament last year. I personally think that it is no longer possible to participate in a meaningful discussion about the future of South Africa without obtaining first-hand knowledge of the activities, the challenges and the successes of this department.

Unfortunately it is politically advantageous for the CP to remain uninformed so that they can gossip with less inhibition. I think that after the interpellation debate this afternoon it is time for the electorate of South Africa to pull the plug on that kind of politics.

Similarly, it is a privilege for me, as a farmer, to discuss the important role of the farm school in agriculture, as it affords me an opportunity to give a useful outline of the problems relating to this aspect in the third debate this year on the labour situation in agriculture.

With regard to rural councils, the agricultural leg of the regional services council, I could argue that agriculture now has a negotiating forum to generate funds for the improvement of identified backlogs in rural areas.

With regard to the Rural Foundation I could state that agriculture has an organisation which can assist the farmer, on a scientific basis, in identifying problems and thus helping to improve the quality of life of the approximately six million people on the approximately 60 000 farms in the RSA by uplifting the community as a whole.

Community development, I could argue, was therefore not only the answer to what the consciences of the farmers and their wives dictate, but also the answer to the problematic issue of how to keep good workers on the farm. Community development is therefore a process which unites all the various aspects of development in such a way that, by means of self-care and personal responsibility, the best possible results can be achieved for all parties concerned.

In whatever way the developer views community development, the farm school remains the focal point. The scholastic level of a woman has a strong correlation with the number of children she will have. The school training of a worker is a determining factor in the training capability of the farm worker in the non-formal and informal training sectors. For the farm worker who is a parent, the farm school is an anchor, a ray of hope in the creation of a better life for his children. If he does not get it on the farm, he moves elsewhere.

The importance of farm schools is apparent from the fact that 48%—or approximately 48 000—of all primary school pupils in 5 627 schools receive instruction from more than 12 000 teachers. This is a stabilising factor in South African society which cannot be underestimated. This committee cannot adequately express its appreciation for the role which farmers play in this whole process.

I think I am also speaking on behalf of agriculture today when I convey my sincere thanks for the part the department plays in ensuring a stable agricultural community by virtue of the rapid implementation of the most important recommendations of this task group on rural education.

It is the new, improved 75% subsidy system, in particular, which now, in addition to school buildings, makes provision for drinking water, teachers’ houses and certain items such as sports fields and fences, which arouses great interest among the farm owners. It is now being made possible for owners to erect buildings of a high quality. Everything points to the fact that the provision of educational facilities in the rural areas is entering a new era. It is a pity we had to hear from the hon the Deputy Minister that the demand for these subsidies is greater than the available funds.

There are many reasons for me to be optimistic about instruction in the rural areas. Contributing to this optimism is the knowledge that even now the department is engaged in setting norms in terms of which a national plan for farm schools will be drawn up by a consultancy service, a plan which will be similar to the national plan for primary and secondary schools in rural town areas. There is consequently no question of education for the rural areas being neglected.

There are still bad patches, as we indicated last year, but it is good to see that the department has already given consideration to obtaining land by means of purchases, donations or long-term leasing in order to erect public schools where there is a real need for school facilities, but where no landowners are interested in providing schools. I am still of the opinion that it would be made possible for more farmers to provide school facilities themselves if the subsidy amount could be made available in phases, because farmers often do not have enough credit to pay everything immediately and then wait for the subsidy.

Other positive developments are that a curriculum advisory service for farm schools has already been approved in principle and that the first five circuit principals have already been appointed in the Warmbaths area. Where it is practicable, farm schools will provide tuition up to Std 10, a development which links up well with the concept of a housing scheme put forward by the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development.

This afternoon, if I may end where I began, I want to ask the proposed rural councils, in advance, to single out farm schools as a priority for upgrading in respect of the provision of additional services which this department cannot afford, for example the provision of electricity and, where possible, television sets, video machines and computers, all items that have become essential aids where one staff member has to teach up to 45 children in up to five groups.

The Government should encourage private investment and sponsors in education by granting some kind of tax concessions. This might sound far-fetched, but in the future we might see a large white horse painted on a school roof, or what about a CP tortoise?

Talking about private donors, in Dewetsdorp, the beautiful little town in my constituency, there is a modern-day Emily Hobhouse by the name of Mrs Evie Joubert, the widow of the late Senator Gideon Joubert. She recently donated a large steel construction for a nursery school where approximately 100 toddlers in the Black town, who up to now were housed in a small warehouse, can receive instruction. The completion of the building—closing the walls in and installing windows, floors, etc—will cost approximately R60 000. Mrs Joubert sought help everywhere, but up to now could not get any. I do wonder whether the hon the Minister could not find a way to help this woman, because that would really put the seal on a life of charitable service to our Black communities.

Seen in the light of the good progress that has been made in various quarters with efforts to improve the living conditions of our farm labourers and their families, it really appears as though the “harvest of shame”, reported by the Reader’s Digest a year or two ago, is changing into a “harvest of good hope”.

The contributions of this department cannot be underestimated. We as the farming community—agriculture—thank the hon the Minister very sincerely for what is being done to establish a stable agricultural sector.

Finally, the evening before we left to attend this sitting, my own farm workers unexpectedly organised an hour of prayer to wish us all the best, and also to pray for our work here in Parliament. It is therefore my life-long task to do something to improve the lot of the farm labourers in our country, and I take great pleasure in making this contribution. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I would like to concur with the hon member for Smithfield in his assertion that farm schools have an important role to play in education. I certainly would agree entirely with him on that.

A feature of this debate—and of the hon the Minister’s own contribution earlier on—is the question of the shortage of money. One of the automatic things which arises from that is the shortage of classrooms. The hon the Minister expressed the hope that where a certain amount of catching up has been achieved in recent years, that progress will not be lost. I am afraid if one looks at the figures it is very difficult to see how that is not going to happen.

We need only look at the budgets for capital expenditure on primary and secondary schools in last year’s budget, 1988-89, and in this year’s budget. Last year an amount of R192 million was budgeted for. This year an amount of R170 million is budgeted for. I realize that all capital expenditure is not simply for classrooms but for the most part it is for classrooms and new schools in the primary and secondary school programmes.

With inflation at 15%, the implication of this is that this year 20% fewer classrooms will be built than were built last year. At the more likely inflation rate in respect of the building industry of 19%, 25% fewer classrooms are going to be built this year than last year. Therefore the crisis in respect of the shortage of classroom space is going to go from bad to worse.

If we look at page 2 of the annual report of the department, we see it is stated that:

I concur with that. I think that is so. Here in one area—which I am mentioning—we have a very serious problem.

In contrast, what is the position in White schools? In 1988 there were 278 526 empty places in White schools. Over the years the hon the Minister and some of his colleagues have had a lame excuse for wasting money and justifying apartheid education. That excuse is saying that opening White schools will not solve all the problems of Black education. However, nobody ever said it would. That is simply an evasion of the discussion and of the debate.

Nobody has suggested that simply opening White schools will solve all the problems. The question is what the impact would be. Would it make any difference worth talking about or not? I would like to address that briefly to start with.

Filling the empty places at White schools would have the potential effect of giving the Department of Education and Training a 5-year boost in its school and classroom building programme at no cost to the taxpayer. The potential is to leap 5 years ahead in one go in terms of that programme. Immediately, as of now, the department’s schools would be able to cater for 13,6% more students without any capital expenditure. In practice I accept that the empty places in White schools will not always be where there is a shortage of places for Black students. In practice, therefore, not all the places are going to be taken up.

However, with a desegregated education system there is no doubt that there will be scope for massive rationalisation. We must face the simple fact that the current empty spaces in White schools mean that more than R1 billion—that is a conservative estimate; it is probably nearer R1,5 billion—worth of classroom space is standing idle while education is desperately short of funds. The figure we are talking about is R1,5 billion! This is the price which South Africa is paying in education for a racially obsessed Government.

In the final analysis, of course, the person paying is the Black child, who will remain uneducated or under-educated because of a lack of facilities. The NP keeps White Government schools racially pure at the expense of the life chances of hundreds of thousands of Black children and at the expense of peace and prosperity in our country.

The same story applies to teachers’ training colleges. I am not going to go into the finer details of the figures. As of last year, simply admitting Black teachers to White teachers’ training colleges would have increased the number of Black teachers’ training college students by 50%. That is 50% in one year without any capital expenditure if that had been done.

Once again, hundreds of millions of rand of facilities are being wasted. The Government wants us to believe that they sincerely care desperately about Black education, but they are in a terrible plight because they do not have the money, yet they have more than a billion rands facilities standing idle. That is the fact of the matter. When they choose between apartheid and the education of Black children, apartheid comes out on top every time.

When it comes to teacher training, it is particularly illogical because we know that here in Cape Town the teachers’ training colleges are not allowed to admit students who are not White yet. Not more than a few kilometres away at the University of Cape Town there are Black students doing primary and other education courses together with White students.

In addition, in the Black and White schools, student teaching practice takes place amongst teachers and children of all races. The Department of Education and Training employs teachers who are White and Black as well. There is therefore no built-in logic. At a time when we all know that one of the most desperate needs in Black schools is an improvement in the language capability—as their medium of instruction in most cases is English at the higher levels, competence in English is a critical factor determining their success—this would make a major contribution, but the Government turns away from it again because it is scared of the CP or of the racialism in its own heart, whatever the case may be.

Paragraph 1.8 on page ten of the annual report refers to the relative calm in 1988 and mentions that there was no serious disruption of education, with isolated exceptions. The report states further:

I have no doubt that there are trouble-makers involved in some of these situations. I also have no doubt that there are criminal elements involved in some of these situations, but this really stretches one’s imagination beyond reasonable bounds. That kind of simplistic analysis of the problem—for example in the Western Cape where one has a problem which is said to be due to a criminal element—is one of the things which does the department’s credibility a great deal of harm.

Finally, I wish to address the problem of how one can root out corruption and malpractice. In answer to Question No 8 which I asked on 21 March 1989, the hon the Deputy Minister, answering verbally on behalf of the hon the Minister, supplied me with an answer in respect of certain contracts in the Eastern Cape for establishing or grassing sportsfields that had been awarded to a Mr Wally Holmes, or businesses associated with him.

I have every reason to believe that this information as provided was supplied by the hon the Minister in absolutely good faith. I do not question that. However, I also have every reason to believe, firstly, that the proper tender procedures were not followed in many of these cases; and, secondly, that large gifts were given to at least one, if not more, officials of the department.

I hope the hon the Minister will investigate it more thoroughly and get somebody to double check the information that he has been given. The problem that I have as a member of Parliament—I think many of us will have it—is that we often get good and reliable information from people who do not wish to have their own names used. The problem is that if one writes to the Advocate-General or, for example, goes to the Van den Heever Commission as a member of Parliament, one may be quizzed as to the source of one’s information. As far as I am aware—I am not a legal person—one cannot refuse to disclose one’s sources. This causes a very serious problem and I would ask the hon the Minister whether it may not be worth looking at a situation where channels are provided, not for public rumourmongering but for members of Parliament to be able to supply information they have obtained to some authority without running the risk of having to reveal their sources. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it must be difficult always to look at life from the dark side and the negative side like some hon members, especially the hon member for Cape Town Gardens whom we have just listened to. In the two years that I have been here I have never really heard the hon member make any positive comments about anything. I can imagine what life must be like for him and I really sympathise with him. I sometimes wonder why people who approach life like this and are always criticising do not go to the trouble of making use of the opportunities which the department creates for us, like the two tours to Natal which we were able to go on last year. We had the opportunity to look at the positive things that are being done, which are tremen-dously in comparison to those which the hon member keeps harping on.

*To tell the truth, this reminded me of my youth when we still had those gramophones and the gramophone records which used to get stuck. Nowadays one seldom encounters this, but when it comes to the hon member for Cape Town Gardens we are back to the old gramophone days. I cannot help thinking that he reminds me of this.

Let us look at the positive things being done by this department. One of these is adult education and how it is being addressed. It is essential for all inhabitants of a country to be developed, and we cannot get away from the fact that a tremendously large percentage of our population in South Africa has a great need to be developed, in spite of the fact that they are actually past school-going age. This is the only way to help people to escape from a parasitic life. A person must be able to help himself and he must be able to understand his environment. None of us need have any doubts about the tremendous changes we are being confronted with every day. It is therefore necessary for these people also to be able to notice these changes, accept them and know how to deal with them. The department makes provision for the development of these people by means of non-formal education.

It is perhaps necessary for us to take a quick look at a few definitions. What is non-formal education? Let us consider what formal education is. It is what takes place in a classroom in a formal structure and usually in a school, university or college. Then one has informal education, and this is what every person is exposed to virtually from the moment he is born. This is when someone is stimulated by different things in his surroundings and by his parents and other persons who share his surroundings with him and unlock those surroundings for him. Then there is non-formal education, and this is a programme of community development to which the Department of Education and Training is making a tremendous contribution. What need is there for non-formal training?

It is very important for us to take cognisance of the fact that the people who specifically need this informal training are people who come from environmentally handicapped surroundings. They therefore did not have spontaneous development, in situations of life, which one finds specifically among people in the First World group. For that reason it is also necessary for one to give greater attention to non-formal training among the Third World population.

The Government has also giving the highest priority to this and there are also co-ordinated programmes for community development. These are not only run by this department, but also by other departments. The provision of non-formal education to Black adults is therefore the responsibility of the department, but it is also supplemented by the Department of National Health and Population Development, which offers preventive medicine and family planning, for example, the Department of Agriculture, which offers extension programmes, the industries, which play a big role, the South Africa Defence Force, the Department of Prisons and the Department of Manpower. A tremendously big programme is therefore being launched in South Africa, one which I think few countries can equal.

The programme of the department consists of two components, one of which includes the literacy programme and the upgrading of basic skills in individuals, as well as personal enrichment courses. There is also an alternative formal training programme in which people, like teachers who are not yet adequately qualified, or those persons who dropped out of the educational or school system, get the opportunity to improve their qualifications so that they eventually have a proper certificate.

The economic importance of non-formal education can never really be assessed properly. Our economy benefits by it, owing to the fact that people become far more productive when they are able to read and write; when we have opened them up as people. When one opens someone up, one also opens up the environment to him and he is able to utilise the environment so much better. It improves his quality of life and it means that he can eventually also share in the national prosperity. Surely this is what we are all striving for when we want to achieve a common future for everyone in this country in peace.

An illiterate person cannot benefit by the non-formal education programme. For that reason it is very important that very great emphasis be placed on literacy programmes. This has tremendous advantages for the community and another major by-product of such programmes is that parents who are educated are better able to prepare their children for school. Hon members know what contribution they frequently make to the schooling of their own children by being able to help them at home. Many Black parents cannot do this, and as a result those children frequently are at a tremendous disadvantage.

As regards the private sector I think we must take grateful cognisance of the many companies that are making a tremendous contribution in this regard. In my constituency, Kempton Park, in the industrial areas of Isando and Spartan, a major effort is being made. The American companies in particular are leading the way with regard to their contributions. They not only make their physical facilities available, but they also help to defray the financial costs. It is interesting to note the shift in emphasis which has taken place there; whereas they used to be more involved in community development and welfare, they have now decided to give more assistance in respect of education because they consider this a better starting point to reach the other facets too.

One realises that this creates problems in respect of our welfare work, but on the other hand it is a great advantage for education. The training they offer is not necessarily always of such a nature that people gain a qualification, but in the long run it gives them knowledge so that they are better prepared for their living or working set-up. We also extend our thanks to these people who are making their contribution in co-operation with the department.

The Adult Education Division was established by this department in 1975. Their first priority was to train illiterate adults and make them literate. At first private organisations were used, but after a great deal of research the division developed its own methodology in 1983, through which these adults can make progress by means of different modules, each according to his own ability. They are then taught to read and write.

Since 1985 instructors have specifically been trained in this knowledge so that they can present this new methodology. In the rural areas in particular there is a tremendous need for literacy. Contact was also made with 219 rural branches of the WAU. Quite a number of courses were presented as a result. At this stage I therefore really want to make an appeal to the WAU throughout the country, which has already made contributions in so many respects with regard to the development of our community— in the past of course specifically the Whites—to come forward again and tackle the literacy of Black women in the rural areas at this stage by means of a project. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, first of all I should like to take this opportunity to congratulate our new Director-General of Education and Training, Dr Louw, on his appointment to his new post.

†Mr Chairman, over the years, as the first Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Representatives, I have learned that it is not the sole role of opposition parties to walk into any Chamber and simply attack and criticise and tear down and break down every good thing which some hon Ministers and some departments have done over the years. Today I can say without fear of contradiction that this hon Minister and his department have over the past five years, since the coming into being of the tricameral system, tried as never before to improve and upgrade the education level of Black people in South Africa.

It is a fact, Sir, that over many years, while the provision of education for Whites flourished to the greater advancement and progress of that sector of our community, many of the responsibilities in relation to education for Black people were left in the hands of State-aided organisations.

Today, however, it should be emphasised and stated clearly in this Chamber, in this historic debate, that for the first time in the history of education in our country the Government is seriously attempting to remove the backlogs and disparities in Black education. This is a fact, and in five years as member of the standing committee, and now of the Joint Committee on Education, I have experienced this. I come here today with this report. Other hon members of opposition parties have come here with lists of questions as though the hon the Minister and his department were standing in the dock; as though they were on trial here. They are not on trial. They are busy trying to do a very, very difficult job, which I would personally not accept if it was offered to me today. [Interjections.]

It is, however, with regret over the absence of Black representatives and spokesmen for Black education that I take part in this historic debate today. I do hope that very soon almost 70% of our population will be represented here in Parliament to speak for themselves, to take part in the proceedings here and to decide for themselves on educational matters.

Education has in recent years been the focal point of much dissatisfaction and protest on the part of the Black section of our community, at times resulting in violence, which I do not support or condone.

The history of education clearly indicates that it has only been over the past 20 years that the State has given serious attention to the provision of education for Black pupils at secondary school level.

*Today I want to thank the hon the Minister, the hon the Deputy Minister and the department for the invitation extended to members of the joint committee and members of the Houses last year to visit some of the educational institutions for Blacks in Natal. To me, as a member of Parliament and as a member of the joint committee, this was one of the most interesting, most instructive and most impressive tours that I have ever had the privilege to take part in. I wish all hon members of all three Houses could have taken part in this visit.

†This was a wonderful opportunity for us to get a first-hand impression of the serious attempt carried out by the Government through the hon the Minister and his department to upgrade and to improve education to a sector of our community which greatly needs to be upgraded educationally and culturally so that the gap between the great Third World component and the smaller First World component can be narrowed.

The vital work to bring education on a par with that of Whites still has a long way to go. I concede that. It still has a long way to go. However, what I witnessed in Natal and Northern Natal, namely the cooperation between the department and the Black communities which we visited, was very, very encouraging indeed. I wish that some of the aspects done by the department and its achievements to date could be more publicised and shown, especially in the media and on TV 1.

*I ask that those beautiful schools and colleges be shown, and the diligence shown by those Blacks in co-operating with the hon the Minister and the department should also be made known to the public through the media. It should be shown on channel 1 and not on channel 2 or 3.

†I do, however, wish to highlight a few things which I picked up on the tour as well as from the report. It is now very urgent that more Black personnel and officials be appointed or trained to be appointed to the more senior posts in the department. Although I appreciate what many Whites are doing in the department, the vast number of Whites must be reduced as soon as Blacks become available for appointment. The hon the Minister assured me of this very recently.

I am indeed concerned about the vast number of primary schools which are still State-aided. According to the annual report over 5 000 Black primary schools are still State-aided schools. The vast gap between primary and secondary schools which allows many thousands of primary schoolchildren to drop out, as it were, must also be remedied if we are to get more of our pupils into colleges and universities and other tertiary institutions.

The vast number of Black citizens in our country who need the services of trained personnel, especially the Blacks in the rural areas, will only be supplied by education. The high ratio between pupil and teacher, and the comparatively few inspectors in some areas are also aspects which I would like to bring to the hon the Minister’s attention. The poor Matric and Senior Certificate results in Black education is also still a grave cause for concern. I do know that it is going to take millions of rand and still a number of years before we are going to remove the vast backlogs which do exist.

I do, however, hope that in the new South Africa in the years ahead we will achieve a situation in which South Africans of all colours and creeds will be placed in one classroom or learning situation, even at pre-primary level. Then we can grow up, learn and progress together to make a meaningful contribution to our country, without the structures and partitions which still divide us in South Africa today.

I wish the hon the Minister and his department well for the future and I especially look forward to more invitations to visit other parts of the country to see what the hon the Minister, the hon the Deputy Minister, his department and the officials are doing to upgrade the education level and standards of the Black sector of our community.

Mr Chairman, it is pleasant to follow on the hon member for Ottery. If I may be allowed to say so, he has apparently undergone an almost complete turnabout in his assessment of the department because he was one of our fiercest critics in the past. This is obviously the result of the tour, and I am very grateful for his kind remarks in that regard. This, however, also explains why members of certain other parties are so averse to accepting invitations to go on such a tour and to becoming confused by the facts.

Converted!

I would like to thank hon members for their friendly and appreciative words to the address of myself and the hon the Deputy Minister. This came from all hon members and all parties except the CP. To them Black education is still what we, in Afrikaans, would call “’n klip in die maag”. Very little of a positive nature about Black education can be expected from their side.

*Nor can one allow it to pass unnoticed that during the debate several hon members expressed appreciation and regret about Dr Meir-ing and his service to the department. The hon member for Stellenbosch said that he leaves his mark by way of the numerous achievements of the department.

I am exceptionally pleased that there was virtually a unanimous “chorus” of appreciation for the Department of Education and Training, and its staff as such, from this Committee. It is clear that in order to give recognition to the department for its enormous achievements and progress in the interests of Black education hon members, as in previous years, are ignoring the unfortunate irregularities. This Committee, with its hon members, has clearly shown that its confidence in, and support of, the Department of Education and Training is still undiminished, in spite of the instances of maladministration. This positive attitude, on the part of the Committee, will prove to be a valuable, a major incentive as far as the morale and motivation of the leadership and personnel of the department are concerned. I should like to recall the fine words of the hon member for Grassy Park. He said:

The hon member for Stellenbosch, on the other hand, warned against exaggerating the extent of the irregularities. He said that they involved a few people out of a massive staff complement of 67 000. He could add that apparently only three of the 33 directorates of the department were affected. I do want to emphasise that irregularities are unacceptable and must and will be eradicated, however relatively minor they may be.

In any event, my thanks to hon members for their positive and comforting words to the department. Dr Louw who, to my great satisfaction, was so warmly welcomed in all quarters, will be particularly gratified about this overall goodwill towards his new department.

†In this regard I have also listened with interest to the hon member for Cavendish on the role of education in welding a South African nation.

*I also listened with interest to the hon member for Berg River’s fine plea that education should bring our people closer together and create positive citizens.

†As far as finance is concerned the hon member for Pinetown, and also this afternoon the hon member for Cape Town Gardens, asked several questions. The member for Pinetown’s questions were all basically aimed at the lower than usual growth in this year’s budget provision for the department. In fact, I stated in my opening address to this debate that the growth in our budget vote is 19%, or 6% net if the funds for salary improvements are excluded. This will of course not enable us to keep up with the increasing pupil numbers and with inflation about which the hon members enquired. This in turn demands great skill in the management of the department by carefully assessing priorities so as to move resources towards the higher priority programmes, for instance secondary education where there is a 24,8% increase, the important area of vocational education where there is a 27,2% increase, or education of the handicapped where there is a handsome 40% increase. We simply must maintain quality and standards by better management of resources because, as several hon members rightly said, educational growth is so important also for economic growth.

I want to appeal to hon members also to activate the private sector—I mean businesses as well as service organisations—to step in and assist Black schools in their neighbourhood to maintain and improve their facilities and services. The privileged communities have so much to be thankful for, and can readily share some of their own good fortune with their less advantaged neighbours. After all, the good education and consequent better productivity of these neighbours is to the advantage of all in South Africa.

I should also like to refer to special efforts by the department to make our resources for building schools go much further, for example, a project for designing less expensive but still acceptable school buildings at a saving of between 10% and 25% in the costs per school, and also projects being negotiated with Treasury where the private sector offers to build schools and then lease them to the department, a scheme whereby a relatively large number of schools could be added within a short period at no immediate extra cost, although of course this scheme would entail a charge on the budget for long periods in the future.

With reference to the remarks made by the hon member for Cape Town Gardens I would like to give him the assurance that my department will continue to avail itself of all possible empty facilities which are suitably situated to be used by the Black community. We are, however, in the Government and in my party not prepared to accept the policy of open schools as far as Government schools are concerned, or desegregation as he called it, for reasons that have often been thoroughly debated in this House.

*I should like to refer to two themes that were dealt with here by so many hon members from various points of view, and it seems to me as if the very definite message to us is that this Committee is presenting both these matters to me and to the department as high priorities for financing. Firstly there is vocationally-orientated education and, secondly, rural education or farm schools. Our department will again have to give special attention to the expansion and financing of these two services, as high priorities, in the light of the emphasis placed on them during the debate.

As far as vocationally-orientated education is concerned, I firstly want to refer to the hon member for Southern Cape.

†He emphasised the importance of mathematics and science in education in order, as he said, that South Africa can break through as an industrial nation like Taiwan.

The hon member for Merebank also pleaded for the training of skilled labour and for technikon diplomates.

*The hon member for Grassy Park gave a fine outline of the career model for school education designed by the department itself. The hon member for Kimberley North emphasised the agriculturally-orientated aspect of career education. In a very positive and knowledgeable speech he advocated so-called low-profile and affordable agricultural training at secondaryschool level. He also made a practical offer of available buildings at Vaalharts in his constituency. I have instructed the department to do immediate follow-up work in regard to this matter.

In regard to the second subject, ie farm schools, this afternoon the hon member for Smithfield used a very fine expression when he said this was a “harvest of good hope”. I also greatly appreciate his reference to the responsibility of the rural councils, which are to be established, when it comes to making contributions, in their own areas, towards the further development of rural and farm-school education.

†The hon member for Mooi River pleaded for more secondary schools in rural areas and the hon member for Phoenix praised the contribution of concerned farmers to the education of their workers.

*The hon member for Bokkeveld advocated more hostels at rural secondary schools.

†The hon member for Durban North requested better communication to farmers of the present farm school subsidy system.

I wish to reaffirm that it is the department’s policy in rural areas to expand the number of secondary schools and to consider the financial feasibility of providing hostels or other boarding assistance which may be acceptable to the community.

I also affirm that the department’s national plan on rural schools provides in principle that there should be a primary school within at least five kilometres of a pupil’s home. The Government also accepts its responsibility to provide schools where farmers may be unco-operative, although in the vast majority of areas farmers are very positive and make a tremendous contribution to the education of their workers’ children.

I wish to point out that the department does of course pay the teachers’ salaries at State-sup-ported farm schools. It is also relevant to mention that the management development programme has recently been extended to farm schools and deals also with the specific problems faced in the organisation of the schools by farm school principals.

*Apart from these two specific subjects, a few important contributions were also made by hon members about other aspects of the department’s enormous educational task. The hon member for Brentwood painted a picture of the department’s enormous matriculation examination logistics. He knowledgeably pointed out those factors outside education that had a negative influence on the Black child’s achievements at school. In doing so he replied, in anticipation, to a part of the hon member for Cape Town Gardens’s lamentation about the scant number of Black top achievers in matric.

In fact, both these hon members, and also the hon member for Durban North, pointed out the serious problems involving the inadequate knowledge that Black pupils have of English, which is the chief medium of instruction. The department recognises this problem and is constantly seeking solutions by making use of experts, specially appointed for the purpose.

In contrast the hon member for Bokkeveld specifically thought that the department’s matriculation results were impressive, viewed in the light of the limited finances and inadequately qualified teachers who have to teach this rapidly growing number of secondary pupils. I think his outline of this problem was very fair and accurate.

The hon member for Brentwood also pointed out, in his argument, that there was nothing wrong with the system as such. If there were, how did certain schools manage to achieve pass rates of 90% and 100%, when they were part of the system? If one could manage to do so, with the necessary dedication surely many other schools should also, in principle, be able to do so. We must therefore not adopt a completely negative and pessimistic approach. We must pick up that spirit, which the hon member for Bokkeveld displayed here, and transmit it to others.

Two further exciting contributions were made about renewals and improvements in education. The hon member Mrs Jager spoke about the bridging course for school readiness which, according to her, has already achieved enormous success, even though it is still only a pilot project.

†In this regard I would, in reply to the hon member for Durban North, wish to explain that the department’s pre-primary policy is to confine payment of subsidies to existing pre-primary schools which have already received subsidies and not to extend it to newly registered ones, since no provision is made for this in the funding formula. However, by introducing the bridging course in the first school year—which should be fully phased in by 1992—and by reducing, in recent legislation, the minimum school-going age to five and a half years, it is hoped to accommodate in the primary schools many children who would have been in pre-primary schools and to do this in such a way that they also qualify for funding.

*Another related contribution was that of the hon member for Walmer who, from a very knowledgeable background, gave a favourable assessment of the expanding educational auxiliary services, the Pida panels and the variety of tests already done on more than 10 000 pupils by way of educational guidance. I myself was actually dumbfounded when I heard his series of figures.

This afternoon we also had a very stimulating contribution from the hon member for Kempton Park about adult education. He rightly pointed out the importance of adult education in order to give adults, handicapped by their milieu, a better opportunity in life. This aspect has a ripple effect throughout education, because it is not only the individual adult who benefits from education, from being literate and from having school qualifications, but as a parent and a member of the community that adult is constantly in a position in which he informally influences the modification process in the education of children and young people, and in this way there is a ripple effect in this adult education of those who are handicapped by their milieu.

Recently the hon member gave an example of adult education—although, strictly speaking, I am perhaps not using the technically correct term—when she obtained an additional masters’ degree in school management at the University of Potchefstroom, and I want to congratulate her on showing, by her own conduct, how this works, †I would also like to express my gratitude to the hon member for Southern Cape for the emphasis he placed on the urgent need for computer-based education in our schools. Although the Ivis investigations have indeed effected a suspension of progress in this field in our department, the department has for many years been running several pilot programmes in schools and colleges in respect of computer-assisted education. At this stage the emphasis falls on computer-assisted education at the teacher training level although a few schools are also included. This concerns especially primary school mathematics by the so-called Toam-system, technical English and the teaching of senior secondary mathematics by the Ivis system at the Soshanguve College for Continuing Education. Even computer literacy is promoted at seven of the colleges of education with 20 micro-computers, largely donated by the private sector. I trust that the department will soon be geared again to resume its progress in this important field.

*I want to refer to remarks the hon member for Claremont made in regard to a certain Mr Mvunge. The hon the Deputy Minister will comprehensively set out the particulars about this case in a letter and send them to the hon member, but I merely want to point out that Mr Mvunge’s name has already been submitted to several school committees and principals to consider him for appointment. Thus far no school committee or school principal has been prepared to consider him for a vacancy. It is therefore clear that various communities do not regard him as a very desirable person—he is apparently regarded as a trouble-maker.

†I would also like to take up the point made by the hon member for Cape Town Gardens at the end of his second speech. I would like to give him the assurance that I am prepared to discuss with him mutually acceptable guarantees which will enable him to make available to me whatever information he may have about irregularities in the Eastern Cape so as to protect the sources of information in a way that he considers necessary. I thank him for the offer and I would certainly welcome it if we could take this up and discuss it as soon as possible.

*Then I want to reply to the two hon members who sounded the one discordant note in the symphony, ie the hon members for Potgietersrus and Pietersburg. The hon member for Potgietersrus probably prepared himself thoroughly, as indeed befits the Official Opposition’s spokesman on this issue, but oh, Sir, it would be so nice if someone could just pin a bit of humility to that hon member’s lapel! [Interjections.]

Firstly I want to reply by saying that the finalisation of regulations for management bodies of farm schools is, in fact, being held back owing to differences of opinion about the interpretation of the enabling statutory provisions.

Secondly I want to refer to the hon member’s inflated list of so-called investigations into irregularities which he mentioned and which attest to a considerable degree of misunderstanding. In his letter of 1 March of this year he asked me for an explanation of, and I quote: “Al die onder-soeke na onreëlmatighede in (my) departe-mente.” Please note, irregularities in my departments. A large number of the investigations in his list, however, simply involve good management practices that regularly take place in the evaluation and improvement of existing systems, ie those by the State Tender Board, the Commission for Administration, the Committee of Education Ministers and even the HSRC to which he referred. These investigations are either not investigations in my departments, which he asked about, or they do not relate to irregularities, which he asked about, and therefore do not belong in the list that he so artificially tried to inflate.

Thirdly the hon member asked me a series of questions in regard to my conduct, as described in the first report of the Van den Heever Commission. I really do not think it is fitting for me to reply to this cross-examination by the hon member, because it can confidently be accepted that if the commission were of the opinion that any part of my conduct, to which reference was made, was unacceptable, it would unequivocally have said as much.

Fourthly, in regard to his question about the SATA and the department’s figures about the numbers of pupils, the hon member apparently neglected to determine precisely what areas are covered by the SATA’s projections which indicate 8 million pupils for the year 2000. According to the department there were 7 million pupils throughout South Africa last year; in the department’s area of jurisdiction a little more than 2 million; in that of the self-governing territories just under 3 million; in that of the independent states, the TBVC states, just over 2 million—a total, therefore, of just over 7 million. The department’s projection for its pupils alone is 3,7 million in the year 2000.

The hon member’s questions about formulations in the department’s memorandum on Vote No 8 attest, in my view, to a mixture of superficiality and sophistry. About his objection to the department’s greater diversity of courses specifically having to be rationalised under present circumstances, the answer is simply that this greater diversity specifically involves essential amplifications such as the bridging-year course, the career-orientated model, courses for the new reformatories and industrial schools and a management course for efficient farm schools. Which of these does he want to rationalise out of existence?

Secondly he regards it as contradictory if the department states that it wants to keep pace with expanding demands and also wants to limit increasing expenditure. The answer to this—for him—contradiction simply lies in better management and in improved cost-effectiveness. After all, one can expand and economise, provided one applies sound management.

The third warning the hon member gave with reference to that memorandum was that the expansion of the control structure of the department, which was referred to, could lead to excessive bureaucratisation, as happened in certain American human development programmes.

The fact of the matter is, however, that the control structure of this department, in spite of its expansion, still falls considerably short of the norms approved for control structures in respect of all education departments. Would the hon member please convey the same message, which he conveyed to me, to White education with its far more favourable control structure?

As regards the hon member’s enquiry into allegations that irregularities were ostensibly committed in the purchase of books for class libraries, such allegations were investigated by departmental committees on two occasions. A report was completed during September 1985. The necessary corrective steps were then taken. During October 1988 a second report was finalised and further corrective steps were taken, inter alia in respect of selection procedures. Shortly after his accession to office, however, I asked the new Director-General to look into the documentation of these matters and to re-evaluate the decisions and steps taken.

Let me say this again. If I think there is prima facie evidence for an investigation of further irregularities, I shall, as in the past, not hesitate to refer it to the commission. At the moment I do not possess such information to any adequate extent. As regards the alleged irregularities in connection with the so-called “Top Down” management courses, the hon the Deputy Minister replied appropriately to the hon member.

The hon member for Pietersburg quoted from the report of the Auditor-General for 1987-88 into losses of R1,5 million that had been written off, with Treasury authorisation, by the department, and he tried to stir up suspicion in that regard. From the report it is clearly apparent, however, that what we are dealing with mainly are losses suffered during the time of the unrest. This includes losses as a result of break-ins, theft, arson, riots, unrest, vandalism, armed robbery and vehicle accidents. All cases, where applicable, were reported to the SA Police and followed up as far as the Police were able to do so.

Furthermore, as with all other universities, unrecovered study loans had to be written off. There were also stock losses at Garankuwa Hospital, to which the hon member referred, which are, however, administered for us on an agency basis by another department. In general I think they were regrettable but nevertheless not excessive losses.

As regards the question of the hon member for Pietersburg about the establishment of Black towns in the rural areas, I want to say in conclusion that what the department is concerned with, in the provision of farm schools, is solely the children of workers working on the farms in the area. If towns were to be established it would require action on the part of farmers, as the landowners on whose land these towns are to be established, and definitely not from the department.

After an enquiry concerning a reported announcement by the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development, I was informed that he referred to a discussion document—it was no firm decision—which was drawn up for his department on the housing of farm workers by the SA Housing Trust. In this document various possibilities of housing projects, such as housing on the farms themselves, in so-called agricultural towns and in existing towns, on premises reserved for the farm-owners concerned, are set out as possible alternatives.

With this I think the I have replied to the most important contributions made by hon members, for which I want to thank them very sincerely once again. I want to give them the assurance that, as far as I am concerned, the most important outcome of this debate is that the Department of Education and Training, in spite of the problems it has to face, has been inspired, strengthened and encouraged to continue with its task. I thank hon members very sincerely for this positive contribution they provided. With this I should like to end the debate on the Education and Training Vote.

Mr Chairman, in regard to the discussion of Vote 8—Development Aid—I should like, at the outset, to refer to the death of Dr Kerneels Human, whose death also leaves a vacuum in the chairmanship of the Board of the SA Development Trust Corporation. We think back with great appreciation to the trust and motivation created in respect of the public as well as the personnel of the STK by the fact that he occupied that important position of leadership there.

I should also like to refer to the Director-General, Mr Gilles van de Wall, who retires on pension in August. I should like to express appreciation for the long and distinguished career which he had in the department as agriculturist, as well as top manager. Ultimately his career was characterised in particular by his capacity as developmentalist, in contrast to the strong emphasis placed on the control function of the old Department of Co-operation and Development.

It was Mr Van de Wall who succeeded in defining for the new Department of Development Aid, which was established on 1 September 1985, a new and clear development-orientated mission and task. In this development orientation he placed emphasis on the importance of tackling development in an interdisciplinary way. He moved away from the one-sided emphasis on economic development to the more holistic approach of community development in which the economic, the social, the cultural and the political aspects were relevant. He continually placed emphasis on community involvement in development, in both the planning as well as development phases. He stated fearlessly that this assistance must be self-withdrawing in the sense that those receiving assistance should be brought as speedily as possible to self-generating development.

I want to refer with appreciation to the sound relations which Mr Van de Wall built up with the governments of the self-governing areas and their Chief Ministers, and his successful liaison in having the Department of Development Aid accepted as auxiliary agent when the self-governing territories required assistance. Through his years of practical grass-roots contact with the people he soon established credibility for this new task.

He also made an important contribution to the rationalisation among the various development agencies in South Africa, and in particular in respect of the allocation of spheres of activity and co-ordination between the department and the Development Bank of Southern Africa, and also between the STK as the operating arm of the department and the autonomous national development corporations of the self-governing territories.

He was also pre-eminently a team builder who gathered his personnel together to participate on deliberation on and formulation of strategic objectives and improved methods with which to achieve them. I should like to express the thanks of the department, the Government and I am certain also this Committee, as well as my own, to Mr Van de Wall for the great contribution he made. [Interjections.]

I should also like to thank the hon member for Vryheid in his capacity of Chairman of the Commission for Co-operation and Development and the members of that commission for the co-operation we have enjoyed with them. [Interjections.]

I should also like to express appreciation for the close interaction and co-operation between my department and the departments of the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning, which are also closely involved in the self-governing territories, particularly in regard to the political and constitutional aspects of development.

Last but not least I want to thank the commis-sioners-general in the self-governing territories, who each in a quite exceptional way made a contribution to sound relations between those governments and the central Government of the Republic of South Africa.

If we consider the budget for development aid, we see it is one of the largest Votes in the State Appropriation. This year it grew by roughly a billion rands—from just over four billion rands to just over five billion rands. This means a growth of 23,06%, and if the more restricted growth of the so-called statutory amount for the self-governing territories, is not taken into account, the growth in the actual appropriation is 25,3%—an increase of a quarter of what was available the previous year.

From this the extent to which the Government is in earnest about the comprehensive development of the six self-governing territories, as well as the trust territories which in principle are earmarked to be included in due course in the self-governing territories is apparent beyond any doubt.

If we look specifically at the grant-in-aid to the South African Development Aid Trust, in programme 2 of the estimate, the net increase in that grant-in-aid of R126 million represents an increase of 31,4%. This increase is intended for the further comprehensive development of the trust territories.

As regards the allocation to the self-governing territories, in programme 3, the total appropriation represents an increase of R785 million, or 26,7%. The extremely important so-called additional amount in programme 3, which represents the main portion of the allocation to the self-governing territories, shows an increase of R754 million, or 26,8%. The warning must be issued that this considerable increase in the additional amount in reality leaves very little room for expansion of the services, since it is mainly absorbed by expenditure in respect of obligations already entered into. I want to mention the most important of these.

They are the general increase earmarked for education services, including salary increases, of R383 million; the general salary increases, excluding teachers, of R185 million; the increase in social pensions of R196 million; the increase in salaries of political office-holders, with retrospective effect to 1 July 1986, of R16 million; a special fund for job creation—R7 million—and funds transferred from other departments and Government bodies, as a result of the take-over of new functions by the self-governing territories—R40 million. From this R130 million must however be deducted for expenditure incurred during the previous financial year and which will not be repeated during this financial year. This then leaves us with a margin for further additional growth in the expenditure of only R56 million.

On 7 November 1987 and 16 March 1989, during meetings of the conference of the finance ministers of the self-governing territories, the budget was dealt with in depth and comprehensively, and particularly with the implications of the budget and the drastic restrictions which it places on self-governing territories in the preparation and the implementation of their own budgets.

I should like to touch on a few other aspects of the provision of funds for the self-governing territories. In view of the charge of so-called unnecessary and expensive bureaucracies in South Africa’s system of decentralised regional and group governments, I want to point out that the cost of departmental administration is only 1,7% and the cost of seconded officials only 2,7% of the total budget—in other words altogether 4,4% of the total budget of the department, the trust and the self-governing territories.

Moreover it is interesting to note that, seen in aggregate, the self-governing territories budgeted as follows during the previous financial year for the most important miscellaneous services: Health, welfare and pensions, 24,5%— almost a quarter; for education and culture, 32,6%—almost a third; for works, including infrastructures and township development, 19%; for agriculture and forestry, 5%; and other services, such as law and order, civil affairs, development corporations and constitutional services, 18,4%.

I also want to point out of course that the self-governing territories in their own revenue funds, apart from the parliamentary appropriation, also derive revenue of their own from other sources. During the past five years this revenue has in fact increased from R504 million to R917 million. That is to say an annual average increase of 12,7%. This however represents, as a percentage of the total revenue, a decrease in their own revenue from 32% to 20,3%, and this is a source of concern.

It can in fact be explained by the transfer of many new functions to the self-governing territories, together with an additional statutory and parliamentary appropriation of the required funds to be able to afford those transferred functions. Moreover, it can also be explained by the fact that some of these new functions are not revenue-generating, for example police and prisons.

Nevertheless I want to assure the Committee that the finance ministers of the self-governing territories are being consulted to ways in which this own revenue can be increased in a responsible way, for example by demanding more cost-related levies for services from the inhabitants and by ensuring better administration of the collection of levies and taxes.

I should also like to make a single observation in connection with Black settlements outside the self-governing territories. An important responsibility which the Development Trust has at present is the administration and the development of various Black communities in settlements situated outside self-governing territories and outside the trust areas. These are communities in regard to which it was decided earlier that they had to be relocated or resettled on a large scale, but with the abolition of so-called forced resettlements it has since then been decided by the Government that these communities should acquire permanent settlement rights where they are at present, and have already been living for generations.

This applies particularly to the nine Black settlements in the so-called Ciskei corridor, as well as to certain settlements in the Eastern Transvaal— Kwangema, Driefontein, Daggakraal and Vlak-plaas—and also in the Western Transvaal, namely Mathopestad and the Serobatse, to whom permanence was granted at the end of last year. There are also many areas in this connection in North-Western Natal.

These territories are for the most part Black-owned land, not trust land. Besides they have been occupied for generations already by the Black communities concerned. Owing to the sword of resettlement that has been hanging over their heads since the sixties, the development and maintenance of these territories have been seriously neglected, and large backlogs have arisen there. Funds are therefore urgently required to ensure the most essential services in those territories. A considerable amount of planning for renewed development, together with consultation in this regard with the inhabitants, has already taken place.

In general, particularly in North-Western Natal, attention is also being given, inter alia by the Commission for Co-operation and Development, to the settlement of redundant farm labourers or illegal occupants of farms in centralised, denser settlements in the vicinities concerned. For all these services talks are at present being held between the Department of Development Aid, the Department of Constitutional Development and Planning and the provincial administrations concerned to determine departmental responsibilities and to ensure cost-effective development.

The role of the STK as development agent on the operating level of their department is also involved here. This is an additional task which makes exceptional demands owing to the backlogs, but to which the department will also give its dedicated attention.

Mr Chairman, I hope I shall be permitted to refer briefly to the hon the Minister’s reply to that part of the debate which dealt with questions on Education and Development Aid. I hasten to say just the following. The fact that the hon the Minister refuses to deal with extensive questions on his involvement in the irregular acquisition of the Ivis interactive video system or to reply to important questions on this represents the usual contempt for democracy which one finds in a party like the NP, which has been in power too long and no longer respects the system which produced it. [Interjections.]

We should like to associate ourselves with the hon the Minister’s words on the death of Mr Human, the former Chairman of the SA Development Trust Co-operation. We associate ourselves similarly with the kind words to the retiring Director-General, whom we wish a peaceful retirement.

On such an occasion we also express our thanks to those officials of the Department of Development Aid who continued furnishing efficient service over the past year. As was the case yesterday in the debate on Education and Training, one is obliged to say that one wishes the great majority of officials who succeed in carrying out faithful, loyal and effective service will soon be relieved of the small group of officials who aid in causing the department to be under a cloud of corruption and irregularity.

I have always received only the best treatment in my contact with the department and I can testify to good co-operation. I take this opportunity to express my thanks for this. I also wish to express my thanks to the hon the Minister for his comprehensive answers to questions which dealt with the memorandum accompanying the appropriation.

The annual report is well compiled, comprehensive and hefty, as befits the situation, as is that of the SA Development Trust Corporation, and this is evidence of the great scope of departmental and trust activities.

I do not want to say too much about corruption, allegations of it, and irregularities, as I did yesterday, because its existence and the way it has been dealt with in the two departments under this hon Minister’s control detract from the very good work which has been done in the course of time. One has to say, however, that there was a time before the NP set foot on the road where it is now when the NP applied CP policy, in its present form …

Never!

… when integrity and reliability …— the hon ex-UP member, currently the hon member for Turffontein, will not know what I am talking about now but he can ask his other hon colleagues about it—[Interjections] … when integrity, reliability and political consistency formed part of political life and of the cadre of officials. It is different today. [Interjections.] Today the leading figures in the NP set the tone as far as uncertainty, inconsistency, unreliability and political deception are concerned. This creates a climate for irregularity, deception, unethical conduct, mismanagement and obviously even corruption in the ranks of their subordinates.

There have been reports in the Press that activities in this department have ground to a halt owing to the discovery of irregularities and steps taken against this. They are probably exaggerated because the vast majority of officials continue their work in spite of problems which they experience.

I do consider it true that what has been exposed as irregular up to the present probably does not reflect the full picture. The number of suspensions of officials from the department is among indications of this. The latest figure of cases of improper conduct with which I was furnished by the hon the Minister is 25, of which 11 have been disposed of and 14 are still to be disposed of. Seventeen cases arising from police investigations are being dealt with. The question is what the hon the Minister is doing about this because, unlike the case of the Department of Education and Training where a judicial commission is launching a public inquiry, a veil has been drawn over the matter here. The extent of the problem is not clear nor the steps which are being taken to combat it. I therefore appeal to the hon the Minister to fulfil his obligations, as I see it, to Parliament by lifting the veil concerning the steps which he is taking to combat irregularities in the Department of Development Aid.

Next I want to refer to a constituency matter, but one which is enormously important to my constituency, namely the delay in the “verblanking” of approximately 70 ha of land of the farms Turfspruit and Makalacaskop just south of Pot-gietersrus. I made representations about this to the hon the Minister and the hon the Minister replied to me. [Interjections.] Nevertheless I regarded it as essential to take the time here to have a few matters placed on record regarding this. My predecessors also made representations in this regard but I have been making them since October 1987.

At the time of the consolidation of Lebowa, the so-called White finger was incorporated in Lebowa. One of the guarantees which the Whites were given was that certain of the other farms would become White land to give the Whites of Potgietersrus a road to the west and the northwest through territory of the Republic of South Africa. That road was placed on the budget of the Provincial Administration of the Transvaal’s Branch: Roads. The road has a name already— P204/1. It was removed from the budgetary programme after quite a number of years, however, because the “verblanking” of those farms is simply not being carried out.

The Lebowa cabinet does not present a problem. Its members have already approved the “verblanking”. This is unoccupied territory. In other words, the movement of people is not in question. Neither can one expect it of the province to keep the road on its budgetary programme while Parliament hesitates in carrying out the decision on “verblanking”. It is necessary to make a submission to the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Development Aid, to reach a positive decision in accordance with this, to hold a discussion of it in all three Houses of Parliament and then the decision will be a fait accompli. We do not get around to this, however. On 18 August 1988 the matter was before the joint committee but, owing to a lack of consensus— the magic NP word in its new dispensation which has now become the dirty word of failure—that decision was simply not taken. We were therefore unable to proceed with the process. The hon the Minister has undertaken now, as far as he is able, to expedite the matter by making the submission to the joint committee.

I want to say in concluding this matter that the road is of critical importance to the district of Potgietersrus, and especially to the Whites in that district, because the district extends up to the Botswana border. Even today there are school buses which have to be escorted along other routes by the South African Police because this road is not being built.

I request the hon the Minister to expedite the submission to the joint committee so that the matter may be disposed of before the end of the session. If the joint committee is again obstructed by hon members of the House of Representatives, as on 18 August 1988, I request that the matter be brought to the three Houses. [Interjections.] If unanimity cannot be reached here, take it to the President’s Council so that the matter may be disposed of. If we are to believe whispers that an exceptional understanding is developing between the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council in the House of Representatives and the hon the leader-in-chief of the NP, then this may be one case in which practical significance may arise from the relationship to prevent the proceedings of that committee from being obstructed again.

In conclusion, it is necessary to say that it can surely not be expected of a large proportion of the Whites in the North-Western Transvaal to suffer hardships because people who are not involved in any way are simply stubborn instead of being co-operative.

A further matter to which I want to refer is probably an ambitious but comprehensive proposal regarding a pension scheme in the self-governing territories, which received attention up to Cabinet level in the mid-eighties. In this budget one again sees the figure of millions of rands which are provided for pension payments in the self-governing areas. This was a proposal which received serious attention up to Cabinet level and the impression exists that, in spite of its having received attention over a period, it has dribbled away into the sand. I ask the hon the Minister what became of these proposals, whether further inquiries arose from them, whether the initial proposals were not altogether acceptable or what the position is. At the time there was great optimism concerning these proposals. It was claimed that, if they were agreed to, they would result in every economically active Black worker gaining access to a low-cost pension fund with unsurpassable benefits. It was alleged at the time that these proposals provided the ultimate answer as far as Black workers were concerned and provided Black states with benefits which had been unobtainable up to that time.

It was alleged that the system could operate in such a way that it would have been possible to channel large amounts of development capital to the Black states. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, someone remarked yesterday that it appeared that there was a vendetta between the hon member for Potgietersrus and the hon the Minister. I do not think there is a vendetta between him and the hon the Minister, but between him and his party and people of colour. [Interjections.] That hon member is angry with the hon the Minister because the hon the Minister does so much to enhance and improve the living conditions of Blacks in this country. That is what he is angry about.

Many of the hon members in this Committee have expressed their appreciation for the work done by the hon the Minister. The hon member did his best to denigrate the hon the Minister. I merely want to assure the hon member that the image of confidence and appreciation the Blacks in South Africa have of what the hon the Minister does is really common knowledge. If that hon member would be just a little more appreciative and positive with regard to the activities, we would be more eager to listen to him, but absolutely everything he says is negative.

At the beginning of his speech the hon member referred to land which should immediately be reserved for Whites. His reason for this was that no road should run through a Black area. I wish the hon member would go and see how many roads run through Black areas after the completion of the Natal consolidation. It is not the end of the world.

We in this country will have to ensure that we improve the relations between Whites and Blacks. That will reap better dividends than to avoid roads through all the Black areas. Those hon members do not help us much in the Committee when it comes to obtaining land, because their policy is one of partition. They want to divide South Africa, but they do not help us in that process. They demand that land should be reserved for Whites.

With regard to the department, I want to associate myself with the hon the Minister in connection with the loss of Mr Kerneels Human. I also want to associate myself with the regret expressed in respect of the retirement of Mr Gilles van der Wall. I also want to mention our appreciation for the fact that the commissioners-general are here today and for the good work they do to improve relations and relieve the burden of the hon the Minister’s obligations.

The department focuses on the development of the Black areas, and I want to ask whether any hon member of the CP went on the tour to see what was being done for Blacks in the rural areas of KwaZulu with regard to agriculture and other spheres. The CP is not interested in that. They were conspicuous by their absence. As someone said, there is a lot to see with regard to the education section. If they wanted something positive, they could have seen that. I thank the hon members who went along on this tour.

More than enough emphasis has been given to appreciation of the part played by the officials, and I also want to express my thanks for the service they render. A great deal of progress has been made with regard to the addition of land, which is our responsibility. Hon members will be happy to know that we are rapidly nearing the end in respect of the consolidation, in close co-operation with the hon the Minister. In the case of the independent states and four national states we have almost concluded the commission’s task. At present we are busy with KwaZulu, where we are merely doing the finishing touches, and then we shall go on to KaNgwane. The commission will then have completed their activities.

In that regard I merely want to say that the target date for the completion of KaNgwane’s consolidation is 1990, as far as the commission is concerned. I hope that if we do not meet with any adversity, that date will bring us to the end of the long road we have taken.

With regard to the selling back of land to private land-owners, if I may call them that, and also the leasing of land, the commission recommended to the hon the Minister that this take place at public auctions if possible, so that we shall not have problems with regard to favouring anyone. I think everyone accepts that as being fair.

Once we have completed the consolidation, or the obtaining of the land for Blacks under the 1936 Act, one comes to another problem, viz neighbourliness and border relations, and I went to dwell on that for just a moment.

We in South Africa tend to think that once we have given the Blacks the land that is their due, everything else, will be a thing of the past. There are numerous communities in the RSA which experience with regard to neighbourliness problems, however. This happens especially where the so-called Black spots are situated in White areas, and where squatters’ settlements spring up in unauthorised places and along the borders of national states.

The dictionary defines a neighbour as a person who lives near or next to another. Neighbourliness reflects on the relations between neighbours and implies that one associates with one’s neighbours as a friend. A friend is defined as someone with whom one is on good terms and to whom one extends a helping hand in times of need. Mutual trust characterises the relationship. Poor neighbourliness will therefore mean that there is no mutual trust between neighbours, that they do not trust or help one another and perhaps have no contact with one another or are even antagonistic towards one another and sometimes act in hostile fashion.

The nature of neighbourliness is determined by various factors. In the first place there are historic factors and secondly, in the context of South Africa, there is the fact mentioned by the hon the Minister that Blacks outside the national states were until recently regarded as temporary. This was an obstacle when it came to good relations.

Secondly cultural differences play a part, and thirdly poor neighbourliness can also be attributed to the structure in which mutual relations are maintained.

The Western system, which is presented as the only model for progress, whereas traditional systems are regarded as backward, makes Blacks feel at times that it is being forced upon them. This leads to a lack of communication between the communities. The instruments with which the structure functions may be so alien that the group withholds its support from them.

A leadership crisis arose among Blacks as a result of the fact that traditional leaders are not recognised in urban areas, whereas those who stand for election according to the present system are not always accepted.

The present Government policy is aimed at adjustment or reform in order to establish the interests on the basis of own and general affairs. The Government’s powers are devolved to the regional and local levels to give meaning and substance to them.

For centuries the relationship between Blacks and Whites in South Africa has been characterised by an employer-employee relationship. Blacks have a very intimate and extensive knowledge of Whites’ living patterns. Unfortunately the opposite is not true. Ignorance often leads to misunderstandings. White officials are hampered and mistrusted as a result of red tape, because they cannot keep their promises immediately.

One must move away from the principle of concentrating on the formation of conflict. The emphasis should far rather be on co-operation. The most hurtful things in human relations are not rules or regulations, but humiliating interpersonal behaviour, as one sees in the CP. The key to better relations is contained in taking people’s human dignity into account in one’s actions.

I conclude by saying that relations committees, where regular liaison takes place in order to exchange knowledge and information and to make mistrust disappear, are a good beginning for a better understanding of one another’s problems in this country.

Mr Chairman, reference was made this afternoon to the allegedly negative criticism. I wish to point out that if premises worth R1,5 billion are lying idle and one full Minister and one Deputy Minister are working very hard—and I admire the way they have been working in education to uplift the education of our Black South African children are stultified in their work as a result of those premises worth R1,5 billion lying idle, then the collectivety alone is losing interest of R150 million a year. How very stupid!

That is the positive criticism that the hon member for Cape Town Gardens made earlier this afternoon. What he was saying was that we should make use of every available amenity to educate all our children, and this in itself was positive, contructive criticism.

Reference was also made to the high birth rate among the Black population. That is true, but even a first year sociology student will tell us that the birth rate in any group, community or country is inversely proportional to the standard of education and the standard of living of the people concerned.

I invite hon members to look at their own constituencies. Regardless of race, colour or creed, the better a person’s education, the better a person’s standard of living, the lower the number of children in the family. Whether they are Afrikaners, or so-called Indians, or so-called Coloureds or Blacks, the principle is the same. So therefore the answer for population control and development is to give the people education until it hurts.

Why do you say so-called Blacks?

Yes, so-called Blacks because some people say Blacks, some say Indians—I am not an Indian, I keep repeating this. It is a fiction of apartheid which describes me as an Indian. I am a South African. I am not an Indian.

What do we need in regard to development aid? I must confess immediately that the great work being done in education remains insufficient— and not because the two hon Ministers are not doing their work properly but because they are as much victims of the racism which permeates this Government as the rest of us are. It is racism, sheer racism which will diminish the amount of money available for education among Black children, while maintaining at the same level the money available for White and other children. Indian children are not going to have less money.

You have racism in your party …

There is no racism in my party. There is no racist in my party. There are some mistakes and those mistakes will be rectified. That is not racism. [Interjections.]

I want to deal with KwaZulu-Natal. It is part of the development. We have a bizarre situation in that Clermont is right next door to Westville and Reservoir Hills; Lamontville is slap-bang next door to Montclair; KwaMashu is next door to Phoenix and Newlands; Umlazi is next to Chatsworth. Yet we have different authorities dealing with the development of these areas, which is the height of stupidity because it is wasteful in terms of money, wasteful in terms of human endeavour and also harmful in terms of the health of the people concerned. I am talking about the physical health of the people concerned. If KwaMashu suffers from an epidemic, then as sure as daylight Phoenix will suffer from the same epidemic within two or three days.

The same mosquitoes.

The same mosquitoes would bite the same people. The same bacilli which transcend racial barriers and the same amoebic bacilli will be passed on from one neighbourhood to the other.

I want to point out one thing. One cannot have apartheid in health. One cannot effectively have apartheid in development. Somebody used the word “eiersakkie”. All that I can say is for “eier”—“eie sakie”—is that it could be “ei-ar sakie”—rotten, pretty rotten eggs!

Apartheid consists of so many rotten eggs and I am not merely dealing with this on a basis of morality. I am dealing with this on a basis of practicality. It increases the cost of administering the nation to which all of us belong. It makes more difficult the reconciliation that we need if we are going to avoid further violence in this country. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I would like to associate myself with other hon members who expressed their thanks and appreciation to the hon the Minister and the hon the Deputy Minister for the outstanding way in which they perform a very difficult task.

We would like to pay tribute today to the seconded personnel who work in the self-governing territories. I want to include the Commis-sioners-General and also thank them for the tremendous work which they do. It often involves considerable sacrifice and even deprivation. We would like to express our thanks and appreciation for the work which they do.

My own brother-in-law, Mr Stephen Swanepoel, recently received an award from the hon the Minister for 30 years of loyal service in this department. He was a seconded personnel member for many years, while serving in the remote corners of our country.

I want to make an appeal today in this debate for our seconded personnel, and I want to direct it to the hon the Minister for his consideration and for the consideration of the Government. It often happens that personnel are posted from Pretoria and other large centres to remote areas where they must then live in Government houses. We feel that consideration should be given to the idea that these personnel should retain the privilege of having a subsidised residence of their own in the large centres from which they come and that the Government subsidy should remain applicable to their residence. It is very difficult for them to obtain long-term leases and they do not always succeed in doing so.

Furthermore, the idea is that as seconded personnel they are involved in training other people so that they can ultimately be replaced by citizens of that self-governing state. They therefore have the uncertainty hanging over their heads like a sword. If they were able to retain a subsidised house, they would feel more at ease.

In the implementation of Government policy with regard to the self-governing territories, all RSA departments are instructed to, where necessary, provide experienced and competent personnel. One of the primary objectives of the loan of manpower assistance is the training of personnel from the self-governing territories with a view to the ultimate total emancipation of the Government services. In this regard, an attempt is being made to influence the self-governing territories as far as possible so that, with regard to the purely standard production and support levels, they will be self-sufficient in order to hasten the process whereby their personnel will be able to become as competent as possible. Hence this appeal that we should consider such a measure.

Emphasis is largely placed on the provision of manpower aid at the top and middle management levels and in speciality fields. The primary task of the Department of Development Aid is to hasten development in the self-governing and trust territories by means of effective, purposeful and balanced development aid. The approach of encouraging and promoting self-development, is a positive policy, rather than a policy which simply makes funds directly available or merely develops projects.

The needs in the social, political, economic and physical sphere are being addressed with the idea of self-development as the point of departure. The regional offices which have been established, with delegated decision-making powers up to the technical and executive level, have led to a far greater degree of efficiency. The best way in which to increase efficiency and effectiveness is by means of training.

We are proud of the phenomenal work which the department has already done with regard to training in the self-governing territories. By means of training an attempt is being made to improve standards still further and bring about still greater effectiveness. Large-scale and intensive planning of the training must constantly be co-ordinated at a central point by the department. Assistance with regard to the training and development of personnel is constantly being provided to the self-governing territories. During the year covered by the report for example, a total of 271 courses were offered to 3 844 officials.

Apart from the assistance function, the department also provides an intensive training advisory service. In this way the various training components are prepared for greater independence and the acceptance of greater responsibility with regard to training. In order to increase the effectiveness of management courses and to make them more compatible with the character of the particular needs of the various self-governing territories, the HSRC are in the process of identifying the extent and nature of management training in a scientific way.

The idea is to compile guidelines according to which the specific needs of each group can be addressed. Officials are regularly involved in courses which are offered by the Commission for Administration for the management corps. A total of 1 468 officials underwent in-service training during the period covered by the report, while 521 officials attended symposiums and conferences which were offered by outside bodies, on 252 occasions. Particular attention is given to all the branches of administrative training. A variety of relevant symposiums are being presented for Cabinet members and members of Parliament to broaden their knowledge and insight. Financial training is offered by a senior Government accountant.

With regard to artisans, highly qualified and competent instructors offer instruction in a wide series of trades. The centre at Olifantshoek is the pride of the department. [Interjections.] The centre has modern workshops and lecture rooms. We could arrange for colleagues, who are so enthusiastic, to learn a trade there, if they are tired of this place. [Interjections.]

One of the largest training projects which is in the process of development, is the training of officials for local governments in the self-governing territories. If one thinks of the local management elections in particular, which are now something of the past, these aspects are of very great importance. In total, 68 towns and 258 settlements are involved in this training project.

With regard to ministerial conferences, we are grateful that the department arranges conferences between hon Ministers of the RSA and those of the self-governing territories on a regular basis. This forum creates inter alia the opportunity to impress upon the self-governing territories the need for healthy financial management. Opportunities are created in order to focus attention on needs and problems. The opportunity to communicate personally with the hon the Minister of Finance and to listen to his elucidation with regard to the economic problems, as well as the challenges and possibilities which still exist, will lead to a better understanding and a more realistic approach on the part of the leaders in the self-governing states. Great appreciation exists among those concerned for these opportunities for discussion which the conference offers, which enable them to focus attention on the problems which they experience and the needs which they have. This will lead to a better mutual understanding. We hope that these conferences will continue to take place in the future to the benefit of everyone concerned.

In conclusion, I want to take this opportunity to thank the chairman of the Commission for Co-operation and Development on behalf of the commission members for the tremendous work which he does and for the excellent way in which he does it. I mentioned this at the Extended Public Committee in Natal, and I want to repeat it here. I believe that the work which the chairman does is of such great importance to our country that the Government should consider making the person who fills that post a nominated member, so that he would be relieved of the responsibility of a constituency.

Mr Chairman, among other things the hon member for Umfolozi spoke of the question of staff seconded to the self-governing territories. I have expressed a view on that on previous occasions. It is a delicate matter and I will not take it any further.

I want to refer to the annual report of the Department of Development Aid and congratulate the department on having amended the reporting period to 31 December each year. This is in line with reports issued by other departments and is much more satisfactory as it provides for more up to date information and greater management efficiency.

While discussing the annual report, I would like the hon the Minister to advise the Committee of the problems existing with the printing and presentation of the current report. Normally we have a glossy report filled with colour pictures, but this year it was done very cheaply. I am not complaining about the lack of spending as I am very much in favour of ordinary reports such as the one the Department of Home Affairs produces, simply providing the information without glorifying the Minister and the senior management. I am informed that this year there was some problem regarding the production of the report and I would be pleased if the hon the Minister would take us into his confidence in this regard.

On the other hand, the report of the Development Trust Corporation is produced in the usual form and is most informative.

I want to return to the question of a workshop and information sessions for members involved in this department, and I refer to the remarks the hon the Minister made in the debate on the Additional Appropriation on 7 March in response to my request that a workshop be held on the workings of the trust.

He claimed that the visit to Natal and KwaZulu was boycotted by my party and I wish to advise him that I have established I was never included in the invitation list, even though it was I who had requested the workshop on a number of occasions. I have done this for considerable time and it is really quite extraordinary that having made these requests I was not included. I might mention that my colleague, the hon member for Berea, who was invited, was in the United Kingdom at the time and that is why no member from our party was on that visit. I am aware that the members of the NP study group on the other hand were invited and I am surprised that the same courtesy was not extended to study groups of other parties.

I repeat that a workshop on the workings of the trust, will be of great value to the members of the committee and I hope this will be considered. I am not looking for an expensive outing, but a one-day informative session designed to educate members, and no cheap shots about good lunches. I am advised the visit to Natal-KwaZulu was most successful and regret missing it.

Earlier this year, I suggested during the course of the debate on the Additional Appropriation, that because of the upheaval and the apparent degree of corruption in the departments under the hon the Minister’s control he should consider resigning from the Cabinet. The hon the Minister has declined to do so explaining that it is his firm intention to identify and eradicate any cases of irregularity and maladministration in the departments for which he is responsible. I accept this is his intention and request he advise this Committee what steps he is taking and what progress has been achieved in this regard.

The question of maladministration in the Department of Development Aid is a very serious matter indeed with a considerable amount of public interest and concern, and I believe the hon the Minister owes it, not only to this Committee but to the public in general, to advise what steps he is taking to ensure that any irregularities or maladministration are being dealt with with vigour and determination.

I also want to say a few words about KwaNde-bele. On many occasions during last year’s three sessions, I raised the question of what was happening in that self-governing region of KwaNdebele. There is no doubt that something is wrong or was wrong in KwaNdebele becasue it appears to have been sorted out to a degree which I hope will provide stability and happiness for those unfortunate people who had to endure the period of office of Mr George Mahlangu. I recently visited KwaMhlanga and had a very interesting discussion with the new Chief Minister, Mr Mabena. It is obvious that the tension has been removed and it is my hope that the area will settle down and that stability will allow the residents to pursue their lives without interference from the dreaded Mbogoto.

I also had discussions with most of the other Chief Ministers as I like to keep up to date with developments in all the self-governing territories.

It is interesting to know that the changes brought about in KwaNdebele flow to a large degree from the decision last year to overturn the election results because women voters had been excluded from the franchise. There is a lesson in that decision for all politicians and I would warn my colleagues to treat their female voters with a great deal of respect. They take them for granted at their peril.

I note with great interest that the Jacobs Commission has been appointed to investigate the unrest and the alleged mismanagement in KwaNdebele and, even though it was only recently appointed, I would ask the hon the Minister, if he is able, to advise us of any progress in regard to the workings of the commission. At the same time would he advise us of the status of the report of the Rumpff Commission which was established to investigate the constitutional position of Moutse.

While on the question of the self-governing territories, I wish to refer to Annexure A of the estimates which provides details of the self-governing territories receiving assistance under programme 3.

There is a large disparity between the amounts allocated to the various self-governing territories and I would appreciate the hon the Minister explaining how these amounts are arrived at. Almost R2 billion is allocated to KwaZulu while only a quarter of a billion rand is allocated to Qwaqwa and KwaNdebele. I am not questioning why the amounts are allocated to the self-governing state but could he explain to us how those figures are arrived at. I should be grateful if the hon the Minister would do that. There is uncertainty in the self-governing states as to why they are allocated these amounts, and I believe it would be of value both to us and to these governments if we could be aware of the formula.

I notice from the answer received to a question from the hon the Minister yesterday that the farm known as Shenandoah Ranch was purchased from a Mr Albert Vermaas in 1983, and while I have no reason to question the judgement of the valuator that the price of almost R2 million paid to Mr Vermaas was not a reasonable amount for the farm, I want to ask the hon the Minister whether, in the light of the findings of the Harms Commission, this transaction should not be reviewed. I put that simple question to him.

Then I want to say a few words about Mathope-stad, and I also want to congratulate the hon the Minister on having reached the decision to allow the inhabitants of Mathopestad to remain on the farm they have owned for so many years and to pursue their lives without the threat of removal hanging over their heads. What a pity he cannot come to the same decision concerning the Magopa people, and what a pity he did not come to the same decision regarding Botshabelo and Braklaagte. I will, however, have something to say about Braklaagte at a later stage.

Mr Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the hon member for Johannesburg North and in fact join him in asking the hon the Minister next time to invite him to accompany us on our tours. I want to go even further. I want to ask the Minister that when we undertake another tour, the hon member for Reservoir Hills specially be invited to also accompany us.

Earlier today I listened with amazement and fascination to his show of political morality. He always entertains us to that, but I sometimes believe the hon member thinks it is his sole right. I therefore think that such a visit will bring him back to earth to a certain extent and also give him an indication of what the department and the Government are doing for others. His attitude will become sounder and more balanced and also less acrimonious and only then will we be prepared to listen to his cliches more readily. †Mr Chairman, I should like to address myself today to a very serious matter which we encounter in Natal. It is so that while hon members descend by aircraft towards DF Malan or Jan Smuts Airports they are, for a few fleeting seconds, reminded of the harsh realities of Africa, and in particular of metropolitan South Africa. Hon members are then, for a few brief moments, confronted with squatters down below in Khayelitsha or on the outskirts of Soweto.

When hon members approach Durban their gaze is met by the Indian Ocean, golden beaches and, further afield, the green hills of Natal—an earthly paradise or, as my Asian colleagues would say, a veritable Shangri-La. Or so it seems. Unfortunately, this is not the real Durban. Against the slopes and in the valleys among those green hills there lurks a reality much harsher than Khayelitsha or Soweto, and potentially much more explosive if we keep ignoring it.

Do the names KwaMashu, Inanda, KwaDabeka, KwaDengesi, St Wendolins, Mariannhill, Das-senhoek, Chesterville, Klaarwater, Lindalani and Sizamazulu ring a bell? If not, the alarm should be sounded! Do hon members know that in 1987 there were already almost 1,7 million squatters living in these areas surrounding Durban, Queensburgh and Pinetown?

Are hon members aware of the fact that the growth rate in the squatter camps is 6,5%, as opposed to 3% in the Black townships? It is estimated that in ten years’ time the Durban metropolitan area may have as many as 3 million Black occupants. At present 400 additional people settle in the greater Durban area every day.

Many have to take to the streets of Durban and survive by selling meat and fruit off the pavements, like people do in Calcutta, Cairo, Fez and Marrakesh. At night-time, every night, they build a cardboard township in the city of Durban, a township and its inhabitants which disappear at daybreak, because during daytime one has to eke out a living on the streets. These are Durban’s junkbox people and they have nowhere else to go. There are the streetchildren as well. Needless to say, the potential for agitators and ensuing unrest is enormous. The Inkatha-UDF conflict could escalate even further under these conditions.

Hon members may have heard about Thornwood. It is there where, a few months ago, Indian families fearing for their lives, had to evacuate their homes and be moved in army lorries to safer venues.

That is the CP, yes.

They had been ousted by squatters.

These are the facts which cannot be ignored or wished away. After all, urbanisation and its resulting population pressure is a global phenomenon.

In South Africa it is here to stay. It started with the Afrikaner-trek to the cities and today some 90% of the Afrikaners are urbanised. In these days we have to cope with the migration of millions of Blacks to the cities and other growth points. In order to counteract disorderly urbanisation, growth points like those at Isithebe and on the Makatini Flats, and elsewhere in Natal, are indeed to be welcomed. However, it is an illusion to believe that these could stem the tide towards Pietermaritzburg and Durban. [Interjections.]

The inception of the KwaZulu-Natal Planning Council in 1984 with the mandate to investigate and report on ways and means to improve the quality of life of the Zulu people, with special reference to the Durban, Pinetown and Pietermaritzburg metropolitan areas, is to be welcomed. The council stipulated the following guidelines: People must be helped to help themselves; the Blacks must be totally involved; viable communities must be established; Blacks must obtain their fair share in the economy; Blacks must also become employers; money spent in the Black communities must, wherever possible, be channelled to the Blacks themselves; and their recommendations must be affordable.

The council submitted two reports. The first dealt with projects totalling R107 million of which R55 million was earmarked for projects in the Durban and Pietermaritzburg areas and the rest for other Black townships in Natal. I believe the execution of these has been implemented and the hon the Minister might like to comment on that.

The final report recommends development projects totalling about R1,2 billion. The majority of these at a cost of R660 million are situated in KwaZulu whilst the Department of Development Aid will handle projects totalling R427 million on SA Development Trust land. The Natal Provincial Administration will be responsible for projects of R37 million.

These moneys are to be spent on the upgrading of engineering services and community facilities, as well as the provision of bulk infrastructure, community facilities and internal services for the development of new areas over a five year period.

The finances will be provided by the SA Development Trust, the Development Bank of South Africa and the KwaZulu Government.

I am grateful to note that the KwaZulu Government has been authorised to proceed with the projects which can be financed by way of Development Bank loans. Indications are that the bank may be able to provide loans totalling R429 million. This will avoid delay due to budgetary restrictions.

I am grateful for that because it would be fatal to delay any further. Any delays would just accelerate the flow towards the abovementioned metropolitan areas. It would indeed be disastrous if we were to allow the development in the South African Trust Areas per se to attract even more people from KwaZulu to these areas. We simply do not have jobs for all of them.

This brings me to another very serious matter. Land for the creation of new residential areas is extremely limited and it would have to take place on tribal land in KwaZulu. I submit that a preponderance of tribal land in KwaZulu retards the economic development in the area. Furthermore, one’s inability to own land in KwaZulu tempts one to flock to other areas where private ownership is getting off the ground. This adds to the already unbearable pressure on our metropolitan areas. I submit that the existence of tribal land is indeed a sensitive issue but we should be prepared to grasp the nettle, otherwise we shall never be able to generate enough wealth for all in this country.

I am delighted to know that areas in my constituency such as Klaarwater, Mariannhill, Thornwood and St Wendolins are to be upgraded. In the adjacent area called Nazareth, illegal squatting is on the increase. This is disturbing because Nazareth is zoned for White residential development and it constitutes virtually the only area in my constituency where land is still available for occupation by Whites. Furthermore, my constituency is the fastest growing one in Natal and Nazareth could offer affordable housing to young prospective home-owners, who are also entitled to a place in the sun. I believe that the envisaged upgrading of the above areas is indeed one of the mechanisms to be used to curb this illegal squatting. The upgrading is therefore a matter of the greatest urgency.

The disturbing thing, however, is that the province has to do the upgrading. The province does not have the money or the manpower. I can only trust that the province has the experience and the expertise. The reality, however, and the urgency of the situation that I have described leave little room for parochial attitudes and tendencies. I am convinced that the province needs assistance and even advice.

It is indeed good news that the Joint Coordination Committee was formed under the chairmanship of the Department of Development Aid in order to co-ordinate and implement the proposals because it includes the province. I request the hon the Minister to inform us about the progress that this committee has made and about the progress made in the implementation of the proposals themselves.

I repeat that I have the distinct impression that the province has problems in this regard, financially and in terms of manpower. This should receive serious attention.

I believe that the rapid urbanisation, as well as the squatters in the Durban-Pinetown metropolitan region, do demand not only attention but also effective action. We have here one of the world’s fastest urbanisation processes taking place. If this particular hon Minister and his department cannot handle it successfully, I do not know who can. If they fail, orderly development in South Africa will have failed. Mediocrity will then be our heritage—and that is putting it very mildly!

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Umhlatuzana certainly has made a study of the factual details of urbanisation in Natal, and I might say that he will find in the course of this speech that I agree with many of the things which he has put forward. I would just like to point out that in terms of urbanisation we see urbanisation as exactly that. We cannot distinguish between Black urbanisation or any other colour of urbanisation. Urbanisation is simply urbanisation.

As a member of a party which regards itself as being the real opposition to the NP, it stands to reason that I will be critical rather than forgiving, especially when debating a vote in the main Budget. Hon Ministers have in the past suggested to me that perhaps it is impossible for me to see anything positive in the efforts of their departments. Perhaps it is because compliments do not easily flow from my lips. The hon the Minister must therefore not fall out of his seat when I pay him, his Director-General, their staff and the Commissioners-General and their staff an unprecedented compliment by saying: “Not bad.” I will say indeed: “Well done.”

I would like to mention that knowing Mr Van der Walt, I empathise with the sentiments which were conveyed to him in connection with his retirement at the end of the year. I know how keen an interest he had in development throughout his tenure of office.

Lest there be any misconception of what I have to say, allow me to state immediately that my reservations about the wisdom of a constitutional arrangement which allows for the duplication, the triplication and quadruplication of services will always remain. The very involvement and the varying levels of success of the Department of Development Aid, the respective provincial administrations and the governments of the self-governing territories attest to the fact that there is just too much government. We do not have to fight about this. We do not see things the same way constitutionally but there is much else to talk about right now.

The hon the Minister knows that the LP wishes to see the end of racially based own affairs government structures whether these are seated in self-governing territories or here in Cape Town. The hon the Minister knows that. Of course, it does not fall within the ambit of this debate to consider how the own affairs governments of the self-governing territories manage their affairs on the frugal hand-outs which are proffered them. Neither is it opportune to delve into the workings of the provincial administrations, particularly in the field of housing. What is relevant, is the commendable performance of the Department of Development Aid in its catalystic work of upliftment and its efforts towards raising the quality of life of people. More relevant is the fact that by its good performance this department has the potential to nullify the need for the involvement of other government structures. What is most admirable to me is that this department can get by with a 4,4% portion of the total budget for matters like salaries.

A careful reading of the annual report of the Director-General should prove to the most sceptical of people that this department is definitely on the move. A very welcome development is the establishment of the Implementation and Coordination Committee on the release and acceptance of the report of the KwaZulu-Natal Planning Council last year. This involves the expenditure of R1,1 billion in five years on the creation of new towns and the systematic upgrading of services and amenities.

The wooing of the private sector into involving itself in the urbanisation process deserves special mention. From the report it can be gleaned that 54 town developers from the private sector were involved in the development of services or in the erection of dwellings on 13 557 sites in 21 months. This is to me no mean achievement and it is worth mentioning it here. One could almost forgive the department for having to involve itself in the development towards consolidation of self-governing territories by the addition of approximately 139 871 ha of land to these territories. Such near forgiveness is mainly due to the laudable advances made in the agricultural developments on a regional basis both within the self-governing territories and on trust land.

I have had the opportunity of visiting the Maka-tini Irrigation Scheme, and it was impossible to fail to be impressed by developments there. The co-operation of the STC was clearly evident. The corporation has as a high priority the development of commercial farming. The advances made in the cultivation of rice are, to me, especially encouraging. The production of silk in other areas in what should be regarded, in my opinion, as part of South Africa is of particular interest. I hope to go and see for myself some day, so that I can learn something about silk production.

At this stage I would like to mention that, like others who have been on visits to these various areas, I have visited regularly whenever tour groups have been arranged, and I have taken a keen interest in the activities of both the Department of Education and Training and the Department of Development Aid when tour groups have been organised. I must apologise for not having been able to attend last year. By the way, the invitation came to my notice only after I had returned from a trip, so I could not manage to be there, but I certainly understand and appreciate the value of these visits.

If one wishes to have another graphic illustration of the manner in which this department has served as a catalyst, one must look at the role it has played and still plays in assisting the governments of the self-governing territories in the development of infrastructure.

Yesterday the hon the Deputy Minister mentioned in his reply to the Education and Training portion of the debate that it was easy for certain White people to talk about how much money was now being granted to Black people, and how money was being poured into Black development. I think he referred in that instance to how double-shift classes are something foreign to the experience of such critics who talk about things like “Wit geld”.

In a very real sense the contrast between privilege and deprivation manifests itself in the availability of facilities, not only like education, but also like health centres, magistrates’ offices, connecting roads, available drinking water—yes, ordinary old drinking water—and sewage purification works. These are all things which are simply taken for granted by many of us, and it is usually those people who indulge in sloganeering about “Wit geld” and suchlike, while to the underprivileged these facilities are luxuries.

I would like to say that this department has gone about involving the private sector with a will in assisting the self-governing territories in the completion of an array of building works which have served to improve the standards of living of those who have for so long been simply overlooked.

At this stage I would like to point out that the hon member for Potgietersrus really amazes me. On one hand he accuses the NP of functioning in an undemocratic manner in a certain context. Later, on the other hand, he contradicts himself. I do not know whether he meant to launch a tangential attack on the LP, but he asked why, if the LP did not care to co-operate in connection with a particular piece of legislation, the NP did not simply bring it to a vote and, if the LP and others did not co-operate, simply bulldoze the thing through the President’s Council and make it law. That to me is a straightforward indication of undemocratic practice.

[Inaudible.]

I am not trying to get the NP off the hook in any way. I am trying to indicate here that it is perhaps better for the hon member not to concern himself with the relationships between the NP and the leader of the LP of South Africa. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the very same criticism that can be levied at the hon the Minister’s portfolio of Education is applicable here. In a certain sense it is perhaps a little worse in this case, because there is a great degree of secrecy with regard to the activities of the Department of Development Aid simply because the necessary information does not appear in reports that come before the Joint Committee on Public Accounts, or are open to inspection by members of this Parliament. This is as a result of the system.

Some years ago, for example, the Dekker Commission proved that an organisation such as the Lebowa Development Corporation had misappropriated funds and been involved in irregular activities.

In the meantime the entire control of the Lebowa Development Corporation has been placed under the Lebowa Government, and this corporation’s annual reports no longer appear in this Parliament. We do not even know today whether or not the Dekker Commission’s remedial recommendations were implemented and whether or not there is proper financial control and management in that corporation.

I have reason to believe without the slightest doubt that irregularities do take place, in the self-governing territory of Lebowa, for instance, and that it is quite possible that funds from this department are involved. This is not simply a piece of CP gossip. I want to quote, for example, what the Chief Minister, or as they now call him, the Governor of Lebowa, Mr M N Ramodike, said recently. I quote from the Review of 7 April:

I want to ask the hon the Minister whether any of his department fund’s are involved in these projects to which reference was made and which are administered by Lebowa’s Department of Education and Public Works. If so, I want to ask him how the South African taxpayer can get hold of a report on the spending of his money. I also want to ask whether the reports of the envisaged commissions of inquiry in Lebowa will be open to inspection by the general public.

We heard from the hon the Minister this afternoon that at the moment, and it is a pity to hear this, a smaller percentage of the total appropriation contribution is being generated by the self-governing states themselves. I think the hon the Minister should spell this out clearly, because in the past and at present enormously costintensive projects have been initiated which we know the Department of Development Aid is involved in, and where very expensive facilities, such as inter alia hospitals, are not being utilised effectively.

I want to give the example of Mankweng Hospital, which started off with a tender price of R27 million, and was eventually completed at an amount of R38,5 million. It is supposed to accommodate 415 patients. When one works it all out, it amounts to an expenditure of R92 771 per bed. According to all standards, it should be very luxurious, and should have the most modern equipment. This hospital was completed more than two years ago. I want to ask the hon the Minister whether it is in full operation yet. How many doctors are in service there, how many in-patients are in the hospital at present and how many resident nurses make use of the nurses’ home there?

With reference to the hospital built in Seshego, I also want to ask the hon the Minister—he opened it himself a short while ago—what the hospital eventually cost, for how many patients provision was made and whether that hospital is in operation yet. According to my information nothing has been done about that hospital in Seshego yet. I also want to know when the hospital in question was completed, and if it is not in operation yet, I should like to know when the hon the Minister expects this hospital to be in operation.

The Makopani College of Education is at present being built for R30 million next to the Mankweng Hospital. It will eventually accommodate a thousand students, of whom 800 will be accommodated in hostels. I should like to know from the hon the Minister whether the Department of Development Aid is also involved in this project, and whether it is envisaged that medical students will be trained at this institution. If one pages through the Auditor-General’s report for 1988 …

I merely want to ask the hon member whether he is referring to the medical students or to the College of Education.

Yes, since it is next to the hospital. I merely want to know whether some kind of medical training will be given there.

When one looks at the latest Auditor-General’s report, the 1988 report, one is struck by the enormous amount spent by the Department of Development Aid. I quote one sentence merely to show that the Auditor-General also has reservations. He says inter alia on page 91—

One also gets the impression that not enough details were available to the Auditor-General, as I have indicated here. In other words, important information which cannot be accounted for is still lacking. I should like to know from the hon the Minister whether these obvious deficiencies have been eliminated, so that in future the Auditor-General can publish a more comprehensive and accurate report.

According to the annual report for the period 1 April 1987 to 31 December 1988, sections of land were purchased by the South African Development Trust in the respective provinces—a total surface area of 56 970 hectares. I would like the hon the Minister to tell me how much additional land it is envisaged will be purchased by the South African Development Trust and to what extent the already purchased land exceeds the quota provided for in the Trust and Land Act of 1936. One gets the impression that the department is involved in a never-ending process of purchasing land.

The question that arises involuntarily is whether the Government is still serious about leading these areas to full independence. It does not seem so, because nothing is said in this connection any more, or has the Government decided to establish a kind of geographic federation with a co-ordinating federal government which can also include the TBVC countries?

I think it is important for the hon the Minister to give us his view, because if we look at the past, predecessors of this hon Minister, specifically in this department, have played a very specific and important policy-making role in the NP’s ethnic policy—a very important role in the regulation of peoples, and therefore they have also made a very authoritative input with regard to the future constitutional development of South Africa.

That is why it is necessary for the hon the Minister to inform the voters of South Africa on the course he wants to take with his one nation in a civil state, so that they know what they are involved in and where they are being taken. If a government goes to the polls to ask the voters for a mandate, surely it must spell out the course ahead as clearly as possible so that the voters can know exactly where that government is taking them. [Interjections.] If it is the Government’s policy to give ten different Black peoples the greatest degree of self-government and self-determination in their own areas, and to permit them even to develop to full independence, we ask in all earnest today whether the people we represent here in the House of Assembly, with its history of a struggle for existence conducted over more than three centuries at the southernmost tip of Africa, does not also have that basic right in principle to claim full self-determination and self-government in its part of South Africa?

Order! I have an idea the hon member is deviating from the Vote under discussion.

Mr Chairman, with all due respect I want to say that if we look at the previous hon Ministers who dealt with this portfolio of Development Aid, which concerns the consolidation and establishment of self-governing territories, they had a very important constitutional influence on the course of events in South Africa. [Interjections.] For that reason I feel that the hon the Minister, who is also involved in that at present, and even in consolidation, has a very specific and important task when it comes to regulating peoples. That is the responsibility of this department, and it specifically involves the whole question of consolidation and areas that are created.

Order! The hon member is deviating from the Vote under discussion. He has very little time left and I am not going to interrupt him again. He must discuss the Vote, because he has deviated from it considerably. The hon member may proceed, since he has very little time left.

Mr Chairman, since I have very little time, I want to ask the hon the Minister in conclusion to tell us where he is heading with the Whites, the Afrikaner people, and what future we and our children have to look forward to.

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure and a privilege for me to be able to take part in the discussion of this Vote.

Allow me to respond briefly to the hon member for Pietersburg. In the beginning he confined himself chiefly to health and hospital services, and I found this to be a case of the shoemaker sticking to his last. I have no fault to find with that portion of the hon member’s speech, but later on he attempted to make political capital out of this debate and he addressed certain questions to the hon the Minister.

I am convinced that the hon the Minister will adequately expound the policy of the NP to the hon member. However, it was not even necessary for him to address these questions to the hon the Minister. He could just as well have addressed them to a backbencher like myself, because the NP stands by its policy and recognises the self-governing states and the independent states, because they form the basis upon which we, in our negotiation processes, are building the future and the policy which we are working towards in South Africa. [Interjections.] It is not even necessary to look any further for it. However, I wish to speak mainly about the transfer of trust land to the Transkei and the consolidation of the Ciskei. Upon the independence of the Transkei in 1976, 4 168 000 hectares of land were transferred to the government of the Transkei. Since then the South African Government has purchased land through the South African Development Trust in terms of the consolidation and transferred it to the Transkei, which has added a further 101 000 hectares to this independent self-governing state.

Further properties which have already been obtained by the South African Development Trust will shortly be transferred to the Transkei. The aforementioned transfer will take place in consultation with the Government of the Transkei. This land will be in the region of Queenstown and Ongeluksnek, at Matatiele.

The only outstanding consolidation matter insofar as the Transkei is concerned, is the purchase of portions of land and farms situated between the Transkei and the Elliot-Engcobo tarred road. This comprises only some 600 hectares. The addition of this land amounts to a practical finishing off of the border, which will not be to the detriment of any White or Black person. It will simply establish a practical border between South Africa and the independent state of the Transkei. It is the wish of the state of the Transkei, as well as that of the farmers in that area, that a clear border should be drawn here.

The approval of Parliament is required to have the 600 hectares concerned declared a released area before the South African Development Trust Fund may purchase the land. However, a problem has now arisen because certain Houses of Parliament do not see their way clear to granting their approval to the decision with regard to releasing the land so that the Trust may purchase it. This attitude has been delaying the acquisition process since 1988.

I can attest to the fact here today that the hon the Minister of Education and Development Aid and the Department of Development Aid have made every conceivable effort to finalise the matter, but their hands are tied if Parliament cannot achieve consensus with regard to this action. The delay in respect of the purchase of these properties is also delaying the establishment of the international boundary in this portion of South Africa, in which regard very good progress has been made up to now. It has virtually been completed, but if this section of the border cannot finally be settled, it will delay the establishment of the international border, with the result that it will not be possible for the necessary co-operation between the two states to take place. I therefore wish to make yet another very friendly, but urgent appeal to those hon members of Parliament who have so far been unable to achieve consensus with regard to the matter concerned, to reconsider the matter and to lend their co-operation in order by so doing to bring stability and tranquility to the communities in that area.

With regard to the consolidation of the Ciskei I should first of all like to take this opportunity to congratulate the hon the Minister of Education and Development Aid and the Department of Development Aid on the progress that has been made with the finalisation of the borders of the Ciskei. Everyone who is acquainted with the borders of the Ciskei and the negotiations which were required in order to have the Ciskei consolidated into one territory, will agree that a milestone was reached in this regard. The decision of the Government, which was announced on 24 January 1989, brings finality and permanence insofar as the future of the detached Black areas in the East London-Queenstown border area is concerned. The land package in question deals with the number of territories and the status of the associated border, which has been made clear once and for all, and which can be further developed by means of the Border Relations Committee and the development on both sides of the border, which will result in stability, confidence and co-operation.

The announcement that was made on 24 January 1989, merely implies the purchase of an additional approximately 4 000 hectares in the so-called Chalumna area, which the Department of Development Aid envisages having valued and purchasing during the course of the present financial year.

A further milestone on which we may congratulate the hon the Minister, is the fact that he was able to give the Eastern Cape Agricultural Union a decision within a very short period of time with regard to the international boundary in the Hogsback and Watersdown area. I wish to express the hope that the landowners concerned who are affected by this decision will accept their position, and in this regard I am also including the residents of Hogsback. There is no sense in negotiating for years with regard to the adjustment of borders which, owing to circumstances in which two states are involved, cannot be practically implemented. Therefore, the decision that was taken ought to be accepted and to be greeted with the necessary understanding. With that I support the acceptance of this Vote. Debate interrupted.

Mr Chairman, today I should first like to react to what hon members said yesterday in connection with the information portfolio and then I shall make a few introductory remarks about the film industry and broadcasting.

To start with I just want to single out a few principles that hon members mentioned. If one wants to hold a meaningful discussion about a subject such as this, one must first obtain clarity about the rules of the game.

†This is obviously the reason for the difference between the hon member for Johannesburg North and myself. We do not agree on the rules of the game and that enables him simply to portray the municipal campaign of last year as party propaganda. By no definition of those rules could that be done.

*I should like to address the question of the distinction between party policy and Government policy, particularly on the basis of the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke’s contribution yesterday. I regret that he is not in the House, but I shall have to proceed in his absence. I want to apologise to him, in his absence, for having addressed him yesterday as the hon member for Randburg. I do not, however, think either of the two hon members will blame me for having done so. Yesterday the hon member tried to indicate what the rules of the game should be and where the distinction between Government policy and party policy lay. He then quoted a statement I had made from a publication of the Bureau in order to define the basic rules of the game. On the strength of that definition he then attacked me and developed his argument. He does, of course, have every right to attack me, as a politician, on the grounds of a statement of mine that could perhaps be put to the test. According to his quotation I said that Government policy differed from party policy because it was the policy endorsed by Parhament. If one were to examine such a statement, one would see that it was a little narrow in the sense that the hon the State President, for example, is entitled to declare war and proclaim a state of emergency without the intervention of Parliament. One would then surely expect him to make use of a State body, the Bureau for Information, to inform the population as to the reasons why he was declaring war or proclaiming a state of emergency. Where the definition still holds, is that he does so in terms of an Act passed by Parliament, ie the Internal Security Act, the Constitution, or whatever. In that sense it is therefore not too far removed from the truth.

The hon member for Schweizer-Reneke went further and even quoted the Head of the Bureau for Information in the October issue of the same publication, Policy Review. However, I myself addressed the same question in the October issue and came to light with a somewhat better definition. I said that the difference was, in fact, that the latter, ie Government policy, was the policy that was changed by Government action or was to be changed by Government action, in other words, not necessarily what has already been endorsed by Parliament, but what is changed or is to be changed in Government policy.

In an even later issue of the same publication I again addressed the question and improved on the definition, as follows:

That is why the Bureau is compelled to convey this:

This view is in every respect in line with the view of the late Dr Connie Mulder when he himself held this portfolio a few years ago, a view quoted yesterday by the hon member Dr Golden. I want to refer to that once more, not to create any embarrassment for the CP or for the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke, but merely because it is indeed a sound formulation, and also to prove that at this stage both the former Minister of Information and I independently came to basically the same conclusion. I should like to quote this to hon members. It reads:

I want to emphasise …

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon the Minister?

Mr Chairman, unfortunately my time is very limited. The hon member will probably have a turn to speak. He can make his point then and I shall reply to him at a later stage.

If one adopts the view that it is a legitimate activity of the Bureau for Information to convey a policy which is accepted by some or other Government body and for that reason is being transformed into policy or is to be transformed into policy, and if one can accept that basis, one can indeed argue this matter at greater length.

In the light of this I should like to address certain aspects of the charge made against me, because how is this principle now being implemented? Firstly I want to say that the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke also referred to the advertisement placed about the Government’s group areas policy. At the time that policy was accepted by the Government, and for that reason it was conveyed to the population by the Bureau, because it is indeed a matter which has a very profound positive and negative effect on the interests of the population.

For that reason the Bureau decided that it had to give attention to that matter. It also placed that advertisement in accordance with the policy it had previously implemented. What happened then, however, was that at approximately the same time the NP also placed an advertisement in the newspapers about the same subject. I should now like to give the Committee, and specifically the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke, the assurance—I cannot actually do much more—that there was not, in fact, any liaison between the Bureau and the NP on the placement of these two advertisements.

Merely a coincidence?

It was indeed merely a coincidence. Unfortunately I cannot prove that, because one can never prove a negative fact. This is one case, however, in regard to which I can merely give an assurance. It does not matter, in any event, because what happened here is, in point of fact, perhaps the opposite of what frequently happens in other instances, ie the Government having formulated a specific policy and the governing party having taken that policy over from the Government as party policy. That is why it was both Government and party policy, and that is why both the Bureau and the NP’s information service were entitled to conduct this propaganda campaign. The only fact that I can advance is that we would probably have decided that either the one or the other would place the advertisement, if there had been proper coordination between the Bureau and the NP information service, and not both, because that was actually duplication.

The hon member for Schweizer-Reneke and other hon members also raised the question of the NP congress at which there was a specific motion dealing with the promotion of NP policy by the Bureau. At least that is how it was presented. The motion stated the following:

At the time this matter was exploited.

In order to prove that the Bureau and I do, in fact, adhere to the policy which we have accepted and which I have spelled out here, I want to quote the extract from the minutes of the congress to hon members. In other words, what reply did I give? Hon members must be aware of the fact that neither the Bureau nor I had any part in the formulation of the motion. The motion was submitted by a party body, some or other branch or divisional executive of a party.

†The reply which I gave to that motion was exactly the following: It is not the task of the Bureau for Information to market NP policy. The Bureau is funded by taxpayers’ money and can therefore not promote the policy of one particular party. There must be a clear distinction between the policy of the Government and that of the NP. This is in fact the reply which I gave to the congress and which was taken up in the minutes of the congress.

Of course the newspapers, who picked up the question before and tried to make some political capital out of it, did not publish this, although they undoubtedly were present and heard what I had to say. They did not publish anything of what I said in that regard.

*Several hon members, including the hon member for Johannesburg North, also levelled another accusation, and that relates to the recent election of the hon the leader-in-chief of the NP. †As usual that hon member had about half the facts correct, and in this case not even that. The Bureau for Information did not make the announcement regarding the outcome of the election. An announcement was made by the chairman of the NP caucus, and that was distributed to the Press. Of course, the Press clamoured immediately to speak to the newly elected leader-in-chief of the NP. However, that was not immediately possible, for a variety of reasons. We determined from the newly elected leader when he would be available. As a service to the Press we informed them of the time and the place of the Press conference. That is all we did. We did it in view of the fact that this was not only a case of national interest, but a matter which aroused international attention. As such, we thought it was a useful thing to do. [Interjections.] We will do the same for any other party involved in a situation of national or international importance. In fact, if the hon member for Johannesburg North’s party ever manages to elect a national leader we will be quite happy to provide the same service to that party. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members must please lower their voices. The hon the Minister may proceed.

There were questions about why the Bureau did not communicate the views of other parties as well, for example by way of interviews and articles in RSA Policy Review. The answer is simply that it is not the Bureau’s task to promote the views of other political parties. Such views do not embody the same practical consequences for the citizens of the country as does the policy of the governing party or, in other words, the Government as such. Besides, opposition parties are not subject to the same discipline as the governing party. They can make any promises whatsoever, but the governing party must ensure that its policy is practicable.

†The hon member for Johannesburg North also complained that there was not sufficient cooperation between him, as his party’s official spokesman on information, and the Bureau. I can assure him that if there is any breakdown in communication in this regard the fault does not lie with the Bureau for Information. We did not know that he cared to speak to the Bureau. For instance, in the previous Budget debate the question of the surveys which the Bureau makes was at issue, and I told that hon member across the floor that we would gladly give him a briefing on the results we obtained in our surveys. At the time he indicated that he could not accept that immediately because he was on his way overseas and we assumed that he would take up the offer on his return, but he never did.

If one takes the general tenor of his criticism against the Bureau one could not gather from that that he has any interest in finding out what the Bureau is actually doing. We would be happy to brief him, as well as representatives of any other legitimate political party on the activities of the Bureau. Therefore, we extend an invitation not only to the hon member for Johannesburg North, but also to hon members of his party as well as hon members of any other party in this House, including the hon member for Addo. If they have any interest in the activities of the Bureau for Information they should just say so and we will arrange a briefing on its activities. In fact, I would go even further and welcome the establishment of information study groups within the party caucuses of political parties other than the NP and I would be quite happy to meet them from time to time upon arrangement and request. [Interjections.] If such a study group exists in the DP I would like to put myself at their disposal in order to meet them at any time that can be arranged. The same applies to all other political parties.

*I must make haste, because there are quite a few matters that I still want to discuss.

†I would like to return quickly to some matters that I have not addressed yet. The hon member for Diamant made a very good contribution in general regarding the nature of communications.

*He spoke, inter alia, about the element of caring in communication, something which is in fact a wonderful idea and which ties in very well with the overall approach of the Bureau. He also referred to the erstwhile Van der Walt report which indicated that the unrest in the Vaal triangle arose chiefly as a result of a lack of communication. The Bureau is specifically geared to preventing events of that kind. That is why we have a tremendous amount of grass-roots activity. When we find out that there is a communication gap, somewhere or other, between communities and the authorities—or even between communities—we do our best to overcome it. The hon member for Diamant and other hon members also referred to honesty in communication, and that is indeed what we strive to achieve. We want to pursue honesty in communication.

I think I have devoted enough time to the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke. He also referred to overseas communication. That is the same point he made last year. If I had more time, my answer would have been the same as the one I furnished last year. He may refer to it in col 12165 of Hansard, 1 June 1988.

I now come to the hon member Mr Seedat.

†He raised the question as to whether we could not get feedback from foreign visitors that visit South African MPs. We are, as far as that is concerned, in the hands of the Department of Foreign Affairs in the sense that these visitors are invited by the Department of Foreign Affairs. We arrange their local itineraries and take them around. However, in order to get feedback from them, we will have to make a request to the Department of Foreign Affairs. We will do that and see if we can get some feedback from these visitors.

The hon member also referred to honesty in communication. He asked that we should “tell it like it is”, even though that is a motto of a newspaper with which we often disagree. We do like the motto, however, and we do not mind doing that.

He also asked that publications should reflect pro and anti viewpoints. We cannot really address that, in the sense that RSA Policy Review is a review of Government policy and not a forum for debate.

There were a few small related matters which I wanted to address, but I shall come to them presently.

*One matter I want to speak about involves the question of the participation of other groups. I think the hon the Deputy Minister of Education and Culture in the House of Representatives referred to that, as did several other hon members. They asked for more participation by and feedback from non-White people in the Bureau’s activities and publications. I should like to say that this matter is receiving our attention and that, in fact, a great deal of this is changing. For example, we have non-White guest presenters. We have Coloured people and Black people who, from time to time, act as guest presenters. The problem in that area is a slight lack of knowledge of European languages.

The hon the Deputy Minister made the point that we should draw more people from Africa. I am in full agreement with him—that is what we ought to do—but there are a few problems in that regard, inter alia that in the normal course of events people from Africa cannot openly come here. If they were worth their salt, they would be victimised by their own governments if they did come here. So when they do come here the whole matter must be dealt with on a very confidential basis. We do indeed hope that in the not too distant future that aspect will begin to improve, and then we can put this into practice. [Interjections.]

In the Bureau’s research a great deal of attention is paid to the attitudes, interests, supplications and exigencies of all the people of South Africa, throughout the whole spectrum of our population. That is part of the two-way communication whereby we gather information so that the Government can do a better job in regard to those people. In that respect they are adequately accommodated.

We have a whole series of regional newspapers, and we have newsletters specifically aimed at people of another colour. There are, in fact, more than 90 newsletters of local authorities, which we help to distribute; in fact, last year a total of more than 35 million copies of our regional publications was distributed.

In publications such as Southern Africa Today, which is a prestige publication, and in South African Panorama, increasing attention is being paid to the achievements of people of colour. South African Panorama, in fact, devotes itself to that in its entirety and is also distributed to Whites and to readers abroad to demonstrate that people in South Africa who are not White also make their mark. This is not done in any paternalistic way, but because we are proud of the fact that our people from other communities also make their mark.

There are also information and public relations campaigns which are dealt with by our regional offices, and here contact was made with Black people or other people of colour on at least 14 000 occasions last year. At shows and exhibitions we have a great response from people who are not White. I therefore want to say that in this regard we go out of our way to do precisely what the hon the Deputy Minister had in mind.

The hon member for Umhlanga made a very good speech and asked the Bureau to become involved in the private sector. The fact is that for quite some time the Bureau has been in contact with the private sector in regard to the creation of a communication advisory board which would enable us to receive contributions from the private sector about how effectively we carry out our task and what we actually should do. The Bureau also makes extensive use of the private sector when it comes to the placing of advertisements and the preparation of publicity material. In this respect I therefore think that the Bureau is actually ahead of various other departments.

The hon member for Bloemfontein East also made a good speech, chiefly about the question of advertisements in the Press. He referred to the ID campaign which was a model of what could be achieved with that kind of publicity—and the same applies, of course, to the campaign involving the municipal elections.

The hon member for Sunnyside referred to the television debate, the publications of the Bureau and then, in point of fact, to the municipal election campaign, indicating—so that one does not have to do so once more—how this campaign was actually a non-party-political campaign. I sincerely hope the hon member for Johannesburg North will have a look at that speech.

†The hon member for Stanger pointed out that the aspirations of all people must be met. I have in fact shown that especially through our research, we try to take cognisance of the aspirations of all people and we are trying to do what we can. The hon member also brought in the objection that especially the local authorities for Coloureds and Indians do not meet the requirements of the full local authorities. However, that is a matter which cannot be addressed in this particular debate.

*The hon member for Germiston made a very lively contribution here about the onslaught in the field of information and the billions of rand being spent abroad to oppose South Africa. I think one should take note of the points he made.

The hon member for Reigerpark said that the publications of the Bureau were too NP-orien-tated and did not reflect the views of the other Houses. We shall, in fact, make a point—at least as far as own affairs are concerned—of reflecting the views of the Administrations of the other Houses by way of interviews and articles too. As I have said, however, the publications of the Bureau—for example Panorama and SA Today—are in no way NP-orientated. They have a South African orientation. He asked for the results of negotiations to be published, but unfortunately step-by-step publication of proceedings is not how one successfully conducts negotiations. That is, however, perhaps an argument we can also pursue at a later stage.

†I dealt with the hon member for Border yesterday in the sense that I unfortunately cannot reply more fully to what he said, because that was actually a constitutional debate.

Next I would like to come to the question of the film industry. The hon member for Pinetown asked questions about the task force and its composition. I knew at the time that the composition of the task force was not of a representative nature and, in fact, I deliberately did it in order to try and hasten the process. We found that we had to co-opt a number of members from various areas in order to enable the task force to do its job and unfortunately the subject of it also proved more difficult than we had anticipated. Therefore it took longer than we had anticipated. Fortunately a report was submitted to me recently and we have in fact framed a Government response to it.

Is it a public report?

It is not a public report at this point in time.

How did a member of the NP manage to quote from it then?

Mr Chairman, the point is really that although it is not a public document …

Did you give it to the NP?

No, I did not. An individual in the NP may have seen it. It was quite interesting to note that even before the report of the task force reached my desk, the whole film industry knew exactly what was contained in it.

*In any event, at this stage I should like to make an announcement about a resolution adopted by the Cabinet last week in connection with financial incentives for the film industry.

Hon members may be aware of the fact that over the past few weeks and even months a great deal of uncertainty arose because—I am now also replying to a point raised by the hon member for Pinetown—the industry knew full well of the restrictions which were in the offing in regard to tax concessions. Their complaint was, in fact, that although they knew that the tax concessions were going to be withdrawn, no one had come forward with a substitute scheme in the meantime. To a large extent this brought the industry to a standstill, particularly after the Government’s announcement on 9 March.

That is something over which I did not, of course, have any control, because it was a financial measure dealt with by the hon the Minister of Finance. I nevertheless knew that the benefits, which previously could total 250% of the current export turnover, were to be limited to 20%. This is, of course, also applicable to the film industry. It has not been abolished completely, but it has been reduced dramatically.

The reason why this was necessary was that unfortunately a tremendous amount of abuse had crept in. People who had no interest in the film industry made investments relating to the film industry. They did not make those investments to stimulate the film industry, but merely in order to benefit financially. The Receiver of Revenue has calculated that in this way the Exchequer, and therefore the taxpayer, has suffered astronomical losses. That is why we had to put a stop to this. Although I am speaking solely about the film industry, similar abuses have also taken place in other related and non-related industries.

It is a fact that this withdrawal of tax concessions has had a detrimental effect on the film industry. Those who have consistently attempted to promote the interests of the film industry and those of South Africa have suffered as a result. The Government knows full well what a risky venture the film industry is and how difficult it is for film-makers to make a living in this industry, because one never knows in advance whether a specific film is going to be a success or not. Every product that is manufactured must find its own market from scratch. Some succeed in doing so and others do not.

That is why the Government is fully prepared to extend a helping hand to the film industry. This was in fact the underlying motive which, a year ago, led to the hon the State President convening a conference about the industry at Tuynhuys, a conference which resulted in the creation of the task group.

The task group has examined the matter and come to light with specific recommendations about the so-called A scheme which relates solely to the relatively sophisticated 35mm films that are shown. An investigation into other facets such as the B scheme and perhaps an art film scheme will continue and, it is hoped, not take too long to complete.

They made recommendations about the A scheme and certain methods of subsidisation, and after those recommendations had, for quite some time, been sent hither and thither between my office and the task group, for further refinement and clarification, those recommendations were, in fact, presented to the Cabinet last week and were accepted in principle.

It is a question of time here.

I am coming to that. The Cabinet adopted certain resolutions, and I had to convey these to the task group for evaluation and comment before I could make an announcement. That task group is meeting today to discuss the question, and I hope they have completed their deliberations by this time. I hope that within a few days I shall be able to make a further announcement in this regard. I want to give the assurance that if it had not been for the tremendous complexity of this whole issue, we would have had the matter finalised a very long time ago. In the meantime I am still awaiting proposals from the task group about possible improvements to the B scheme, ie elementary 16mm films, and also possible assistance for art films. I hope the Cabinet’s decision last week will be the first step towards a totally new dispensation for the film industry.

One must issue a word of warning, however, and that is that it will not be at all possible for the Government to make the same amounts of money available, by way of direct subsidisation, that it has spent on the film industry in the past. I do not think anyone is asking for that. At this stage the subsidy for films must compete with the bread subsidy and other State expenditure, and it goes without saying that we shall have to be careful.

I shall now conclude my remarks about the Bureau and the film industry, but if any hon member has anything more to say about this, I shall reply to his comments. I now want to speak about broadcasting.

It is a pleasure for me to welcome Dr Brand Fourie. He will be retiring at the end of June and is therefore attending a discussion of this Vote for the last time in this capacity. I should like to pay tribute to a great official and administrator, and a fine product of this country and of the Western Transvaal who has selflessly devoted himself to the service of his country. Reference has previously been made to him, and I therefore want to be brief. As far back as 1934 he joined the Public Service and occupied various posts. Initially, for a period of five years, he was a member of the South Africa permanent delegation to the UN in New York, and subsequently head of that delegation. For two years he was Secretary of Information, which makes it very fitting to have him present here today, and for two years he was also Secretary of Foreign Affairs. For a total of 16 years he was Secretary, and subsequently Director-General of Foreign Affairs and Information. As a very junior official in the Department of Foreign Affairs I had an opportunity to view this singular personage from a distance, and on a few occasions I had the privilege of meeting him and holding discussions with him. We all have great respect for him.

After his retirement he took upon himself the task of the SABC. The four years since he became Chairman of the Board of the SABC was a turbulent period of Sturm und Drang in the SABC, from which the SABC emerged as a more flawless, streamlined organisation. His time with the SABC was a fruitful time in which the SABC prepared itself for the challenges of the future. I should also like to refer to his successor, Prof Christo Viljoen. At present he is deputy chairman, and will be chairman from 1 July. He is an engineer by profession, a professor in engineering, and is the dean of a faculty of engineering. He has had a very distinguished career in engineering, but has also played a leading role in community and cultural life. I want to welcome him in his absence and wish him everything of the best in the task he is to perform. I think Dr Fourie will agree with me that it is not the easiest of tasks to keep the organisation going in South Africa.

I also want to welcome the Director-General, Mr Wynand Harmse, who is present here for the first time in this capacity. Last year, during the discussion of this Vote, he had already been appointed in an acting capacity. In the meantime he has obtained a permanent appointment, and is someone who has, for several years now—I think approximately 25 years—been employed by the SABC. In other words, he knows this organisation from the inside. From our experience of him over the past few months, it is also apparent that he is an outstanding administrator and someone who is as good as his word. I want to wish him everything of the best and thank him for what he has already done.

I now briefly want to speak, in more general terms, about broadcasting. As far as broadcasting is concerned, as in the case of other countries, South Africa finds itself, on the threshold of the 21st century, in the midst of a period of unparalleled development and change. In certain respects electronics has already progressed into the 21st century. Developments in the sphere of satellite technology have considerably extended the range of television broadcasts, at the same time reducing the distances between continents and cultures.

The great changes in broadcasting production methods and revolutionary developmental changes from analogue to digital, which is a totally different concept, from film to video, etc, emphasise the dynamic and changing nature of broadcasting in the times in which we are living. That is why it is a tremendous task to keep abreast of the technological component of this industry. It is a living and constantly expanding industry, but at the same time, as an information medium, from a communications point of view it is making the world smaller and smaller.

Against this background South Africa must keep pace with technological development of unparalleled scope which has an increased impact on the extensive communications explosion of our time. South Africa must utilise the powerful mass medium of broadcasting to address and help solve the problems and challenges of our time. For that reason it is gratifying to know that, as far as broadcasting is concerned, South Africa does not need to stand back for any other country in the world.

The SABC, as the main protagonist in this sphere, and increasingly with other members of the cast, M-Net probably being the most important, compares very favourably, technologically and otherwise, with the major broadcasters in the world. I am sure hon members will say that if they are on the forefront, technologically speaking, they should also be on the forefront in other respects. I want to make the point that this is probably true, within the framework of the international restrictions within which they must function.

At the same time, however, we must keep the rapidly developing and dynamic broadcasting industry in South Africa within the limits of economic affordability. That is always a serious consideration.

The SABC would be in a position to furnish twice the services it is furnishing at the moment. The point, however, is that we have to keep the services that are furnished within the limits of affordability, and therefore, in a period of technological growth and development, there must be optimal utilisation of financial resources, which requires enormous capital and operating expenditure in order to meet the demands of the times.

Against this background it was all the more gratifying to learn from the SABC’s annual report for 1988, which was tabled in Parliament last week, of the very sound financial position in which the SABC finds itself and of the operating surplus of the corporation for the past financial year, which is R58 million in nominal terms and perhaps R41 million in real terms. This tremendous turnaround in its financial affairs, from an alarming loss in the previous four years to this wonderful profit, represents a change in the SABC’s financial position in real terms, and is not merely the product of a new accounting policy being implemented within the corporation.

It is, however, a very definite about-face, in real terms, not only of the financial conditions in the SABC, but also of the whole prevailing administrative approach. With limited resources, but also imaginative management changes, the SABC has succeeded in placing its finances on a sound footing, and what is more there has been an increase in its radio and television audiences and also its advertising revenue, which is by far the major source of financing. In other words, I really do want to commend the board and the management of the SABC most sincerely on the way in which they are running the SABC, both financially and administratively.

What about Riaan Eksteen?

We can discuss Riaan Eksteen if the hon member really wants to. I do not think it is worth repeating an old debate of last year, but we can do so if hon members insist. At this stage M-Net is still operating at a loss. It is cause for concern that such a large organisation is showing a loss, but it is in the process of building itself up. There is encouraging growth. We hope that it will also be able to stand on its own two feet very soon, but at the same time it is very gratifying to note that even in this climate, with the SABC having to compete with M-Net in certain respects, the SABC is still doing so well. The board, management and the Director-General of the SABC must be congratulated on their financial achievements and for having achieved other major goals such as effective control, self-examination and strategic planning. This has laid further foundations for an efficient, sound organisation in the long term.

To sum up, therefore, broadcasting in our country is growing and is dynamic. It is strong and sound and is making progress within an enlarged and widening spectrum.

Mr Chairman, I should like to link up with the hon the Minister’s references to inter alia Dr Brand Fourie. We respect him too. We also regard him in that venerable light. It is just a pity that he had to close such an illustrious career in an atmosphere of suspicion which exists on the objectivity of the SABC.

We welcome Prof Viljoen and we say to Mr Harmse that we wish him well. We want to give him this bit of advice. If he receives telephone calls, from Tuynhuys in particular, he must do what he thinks is right and not permit himself to be intimidated.

The hon the Minister spoke about honest communication as the goal of his department. I want to tackle him about that now. When he prepares and despatches documents in the bureau which cost hundreds of thousands of rands at the taxpayer’s expense, he should add all the comment from all political parties who are represented in this House. He should not reflect only the opinions of a minority of the people represented here at the expense of all of us. Give the LP, CP, DP and all the other parties a chance to provide comment there too. Then he will be striving for honest communication.

[Inaudible.]

I shall get to that hon member in a moment about his clever tricks. He is permitted to speak for half an hour and an hour but our time is limited. In the time at his disposal he occupies himself chiefly in distributing fine messages to all NP members who spoke so beautifully. I am still waiting to hear a Minister say that the members of his own party did not make a good speech. [Interjections.]

I want to ask the hon the Minister the following on this honest communication of his. If such honest communication exists, how is it that we have to hear today that an hon member of the NP is in possession of a confidential report and nobody else is? Is that honest communication? [Interjections.] The hon the Minister spoke for an hour. I want to speak for only 13 minutes. Could he contain himself somewhat?

Our criticism of the Bureau and SABC-TV is not aimed at every individual in it or at everything they do but at the political manipulation by some of them. The hon the Minister played with certain concepts here yesterday, in particular with the very important question of Black political rights. I have The Citizen of 3 March here which reads: “Won’t matter if President is Black—Stoffel”. Of course, Stoffel is the hon the Minister.

I now want to put a few pertinent questions to the hon the Minister. I want to know whether what is printed here is true. Is it true that he would not mind if the State President of South Africa were Black?

That would be an oversimplification of the matter.

I would appreciate it if the hon the Minister would reply to this. He says it is an oversimplification of the matter. I also want to question him on his juggling with the concept of Black majority government yesterday. A Black majority government means that the people who are in the Government, in the Cabinet, are in the majority. This brings me to the point. He is the hon the Minister who broadcasts NP policy, which is supposedly Government policy, to the world. I want him to clear up one question for us. Will we have a Black majority government or White domination in the country? Which of the two is it to be?

Neither.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: With all due respect, I want to say that the hon member, as happened in the case of another hon member yesterday, is engaged in a constitutional debate which has nothing to do with this matter.

Order! I think the hon member for Overvaal is debating a statement made by the hon the Minister. This has nothing to do with constitutional matters. The hon member for Overvaal may proceed.

If I may express this matter even more strongly, I want to say that the hon the Minister is the man who uses hundreds of thousands of rands of taxpayers’ money to write certain things in the Bureau’s documents. That is why I may call him to account today and tell him he is to inform us in his publications whether the NP envisages a Black majority government or White domination. According to their policy it can be only one of these two.

We are supposed to have an undivided South Africa now in which there are five million Whites and about 25 to 30 million Blacks at this stage. The Blacks are on the increase but White numbers remain the same. If the hon the Minister says there will not be a Black majority government, he is saying there will always be White domination. If he says that there will be White domination, he must spell it out. We want to know from the Government, and he is to spell this out in his documents, how they propose protecting minority rights. Whites, Coloureds, Indians, etc are all minority groups. We want to know how they propose protecting minorities in South Africa. As I recall, this is the eighteenth time that I have asked the Government in different Houses of Parliament to indicate to us in their documents how they intend protecting minorities, how they propose preventing the Whites from being dominated, for instance.

This brings me to the basic lack of credibility of the NP. I now refer hon members to the McCann Report which was purchased by the Bureau. I refer to an extract from this in which this firm, which was hired by the Government to prepare a document for the bureau, says the following:

Yesterday the hon member for Border spoke about the lack of credibility of the Government. He also spoke about the honesty of the NP. I wonder to what extent NP ears were burning when that hon member said yesterday: “The hon member is not to think that we are satisfied with the trickery which is going on because we are sitting here. It is trickery and the hon member knows this as well as I do. All that we have here is a certain administrative obligation. We do not have decision-making powers like the NP. The hon member must not try to peddle that bogeyman story to us.” I am telling the hon the Minister that we find that the credibility of the NP is questioned everywhere. We say the same. We say the NP lacks credibility entirely in the political sphere. I want to give hon members one example. It comes out of an old NP document— it is 10 or 11 years old already—called Skietgoed, No 11 of May 1976. It reads:

This is the type of guarantee with which we are saddled. The hon the State President—and this must be tested against the documents of the bureau—told the country a few weeks ago that there would not be an election this year; delimitation had to come first. Now there is to be an election without delimitation. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon member is very far from anything which has been said before in this debate.

Order! I think it is closely related to the Vote. The hon member is quoting from documents of the Bureau for Information and he is repudiating the hon the Minister’s statements.

With respect, Mr Chairman, the hon member did not quote from …

Order! The hon the Minister conceded what the hon member had just quoted.

Mr Chairman, I concede that the hon member quoted, but the point on which he is building his speech now is on the NP Information Service.

Order! My ruling is that the hon member for Overvaal may proceed. [Interjections.]

Thank you, Sir. The point I wish to make is that this image which I have just given of the NP is not projected by SABC-TV. [Interjections.] This image of a lack of credibility which I have built up is never projected on TV.

That is nonsense!

It is never mentioned in the bureau’s publications. That is why we say that SABC-TV and the Bureau act as NP organisers to protect their image.

I very seldom agree with anything that the NP says but yesterday the hon member for Sunnyside said something with which I am obliged to agree. This is the truth about the effect of the TV debate between the hon leader-in-chief of the NP and the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly. The hon member for Sunnyside asked who had won if we looked at the results of the election that followed. He said that was certain proof that the hon the Minister of National Education had won that debate hands down because they had won the election that followed by an overwhelming majority. [Interjections.] That is what a member of the NP said. The hon the Minister was here but apparently he was asleep. What actually happened was the following: That debate took place on the evening before the by-elections at Schweizer-Reneke and Standerton. Now the hon member says that his leader fared so well that they made enormous progress.

There was another election.

There was no election after that. The hon the Minister should wake up too. The hon the Minister is the Minister of Information but let me inform him. [Interjections.] The general election came before the TV debate. The hon the Minister should just wake up. The hon the Minister’s party was trounced even more soundly in the municipal election than in the by-elections, as I shall prove now.

In the by-election at Schweizer-Reneke our majority was 191 at first. The following morning it had risen by 415%. It was initially 952 in Standerton and the next day it had risen by 300%. About a year afterwards came the byelection at Randfontein and then our majority was 214% higher and the NP, which had drawn 6 267 votes, then drew only approximately 4 700. We gained control of six of the eight health committees in the municipal election. There are 45 local area committees and we won in 33 of them. There are 28 town councils and we won in 19. I could continue in this vein but I shall summarise it for hon members as follows.

We won in 101 of the 150 councils in the Transvaal and the NP in 38. Hon members say nothing about this on television, neither do they see anything about it in the Bureau’s publications. We had 671 councillors elected and they had 403. We drew 42,4% of votes and they drew 42,1%. We won. We had won since the evening when the hon the Minister of National Education spoke. I wish he would speak every day because then we would gain more and more votes and ultimately take over the Government. [Interjections.]

I want to close by saying that there is abundant evidence that SABC-TV favours the NP blatantly above the CP and the other parties too and that SABC-TV serves as an active NP organiser.

Secondly, the Bureau for Information advertises NP policy left and right at the taxpayers’ expense and refuses even to publish the comments of the CP and the other political parties on this. That is why the CP appeals seriously to the SABC and the Bureau to reflect and to stop using their position for one-sided party-political purposes.

You are worse than Dr Goebbels, aren’t you?

You are being hurt; you will lose your seat yet as well.

Mr Chairman, this afternoon the hon member for Overvaal chose to use a debate which dealt with a Vote, to attempt to start an election campaign. I shall return to that shortly, because he provided an excellent example of why I want to make an appeal to the SABC to retain their own policy and guidelines with regard to the coverage of political matters.

It suits you, that’s why!

I want to talk mainly about the SABC today, and if I have enough time, I shall possibly return later to a particular matter which the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke mentioned with regard to the Bureau.

Firstly, I want to make an appeal to the SABC on behalf of the listeners and viewers in the platte-land. There is a Dutch saying: “Eers gegeven en dan genomen is erger als een kind gestolen”. Unfortunately, the situation is that Radio 2000, which could be heard in the platteland at a stage, is no longer available there. Earlier this year, during the final Currie Cup cricket match, I personally had the experience that while I was travelling in my motorcar to the platteland, I lost the commentary at a stage. I found it extremely frustrating.

When Radio 2000 is constantly advertised on television as if simulcast transmissions were available on that frequency, one can understand the great frustration felt by rural listeners and viewers about this service. I therefore want to ask whether the SABC could not once again look at their priorities. One realises that capital expenditure is involved, but they should possibly look at their priorities, because things such as stereo could, as far as I am concerned, rather wait.

Much has been said about the SABC’s political coverage, and the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke in particular proffered supposed proof with regard to the favouring of the NP. I would like to put that to the test. The hon member for Schweizer-Reneke invoked the fact that he had worked in the news office of the SABC for a while. I just want to tell that hon member—I shall substantiate my statement this afternoon— that I worked in journalism for 15 years, inter alia as a news editor. If that hon member had worked for me and dealt with facts the way he did yesterday evening, he would have worked for me for a very short period. [Interjections.]

Let me give hon members an example. The hon member for Schweizer-Reneke alleged here yesterday that the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs was given the opportunity by the SABC to react to statements which his leader made about South West Africa.

That is a fact.

It is not a fact. The hon members did not go to the trouble of looking at the facts. What happened? They must listen! Would those hon members not maintain academic dignity for once and listen? [Interjections.] What happened? That morning, their leader held a Press conference and that afternoon the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs held an international Press conference. A foreign media man summarised the statements which were made by the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly and asked the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs to react to them. The SABC showed that. It is, if hon members are not aware of it, ordinary and good journalistic practice to carry follow-up stories where large news events are taking place. [Interjections.] The hon member will have an opportunity again, then he can react to that. The fact of the matter is that he portrayed the facts incorrectly. [Interjections.]

A great fuss was also made about the programme on partition. A great fuss was made about that, but those hon members seem to conveniently forget that on occasion there was also a programme on the Group Areas Act. [Interjections.] The hon member must just give me a chance to finish speaking. The SABC then received thanks from the ranks of the CP for the balanced programme. However, if it does not suit those hon members, they have objections. The fact of the matter is that there is so much confusion with regard to their partition policy that the proponents of partition differ with one another in full view of the nation on television and tear one another’s hair out.

If only the CP could indicate the borders of their homeland to us tomorrow, if only they could tell us whether their policy is one of partition or of secession for an Afrikaner state, and if only they could tell us whether they differ with Prof Caret Boshoff, who says that their policy is devoid of a moral foundation, I personally would make an appeal to the SABC and exert pressure for them to receive the maximum time in which to state that policy of theirs. [Interjections.] However, they must draw their borders and they must be specific.

Mr Chairman, the hon members also complained about the attention that has been given to Boksburg and Carletonville. The fact of the matter is that I can well understand that they would not like anyone to give coverage to them. However, this is a highly controversial issue and if there is any reaction to it, that is also news and those hon members must take it. Whenever they make news and it is unfortunately an embarrassment to them, they cannot expect the SABC to ignore it. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Brits did another very interesting thing here yesterday. He referred to Sunday sport on television. He said that because there was Sunday sport on television, the SABC was not representative of the opinions of everyone, because his people were not in favour of Sunday sport. If the SABC were to drop Sunday sport because it did not suit those hon members, then surely they would be excluding other people. I just want to ask the hon member for Brits whether he is lame. All he need do is lean forward and push the button. There is nothing stopping him from switching off the television if something does not suit him. He must do as I do on a Sunday. Use it as a family day for family activities. No one is forcing him to watch Sunday sport. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Schweizer-Reneke asked to be given access to the formulated policy of the SABC with regard to news. I should like to make an appeal to the hon the Minister to grant serious consideration to in fact making it available to the hon member. I should also like to have a look at it. I have not seen the complete policy, but I have in fact seen a formulation of the policy which I requested with regard to political coverage. I want to address an earnest appeal to the SABC to apply these guidelines of theirs strictly. This is because I am afraid that the CP would then very seldom appear on the SABC. To summarise, they are formulated as follows, and I quote:

Then follow the key words:

We therefore seldom have anything from the CP. [Interjections.]

Yesterday I took the hon member for Overvaal to task with regard to the hurtful, humiliating remark which he made about the board of the SABC during this debate last year. He was to have replied to it, but I am still waiting.

I stand by it; that is my reply.

If the hon member stands by his offensive and hurtful actions, he must not expect the SABC to report on the crude manner in which he practises politics. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Springs may continue.

Mr Chairman, I should once again just like to say something in passing about the facts of the matter. Yesterday the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke made reference to and quoted from a newspaper article with regard to the motion which was dealt with by the hon the Minister at the NP’s congress. Did he at any stage take the trouble to make any enquiries as to how the hon the Minister had reacted to that motion?

The fact of the matter is …

He did not make any enquiries. He was not interested in the facts, because they did not suit him. If he had been here earlier this afternoon, he would have heard the facts, and they would not have suited him either.

In conclusion, despite everything I have said about the SABC, this does not mean that I am one hundred per cent satisfied with all the coverage, and particularly the political coverage, of the SABC. Yesterday the hon member for Brits objected to the fact that their political attacks on the Government did not receive adequate attention. In my view, the fact is that they receive coverage which is totally out of proportion, when one considers the number of members of Parliament.

The other problem I have is that the NP is entirely neglected with regard to its own political-ideological standpoints and that they unfortunately receive very little coverage. Because the NP is the Government of the day, the members of the Executive Authority do, of course, make newsworthy statements and announcements. I wish to make an earnest appeal to the SABC to revise its formula …

Are you serious?

I am dead serious. I wish to appeal that in future announcements by members of the Executive Authority …

Order! Did an hon member say that someone was sanctimonious?

Mr Chairman, I said so. I withdraw it.

There is a glowing example of why they ought not to be reported.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: An hon member is not entitled to react to something that has been withdrawn.

Order! That is correct.

Very well, Mr Chairman, I shall leave it at that.

Mr Chairman, the fact of the matter is that announcements that are made by members of the Executive Authority in their capacity as members of the Executive Authority must be separated from normal political coverage, and that the NP must receive its legitimate share of political coverage.

Lastly, I should just like to return briefly to a matter which the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke raised with regard to the Bureau for Information. He created the impression yesterday that he would prefer the Bureau to focus its attention primarily on foreign countries. I shall react to that on another occasion, because I do not have time to debate it today. He created the impression that there were fewer internal activities under a former dispensation.

[Inaudible.]

In my view it is not a fair image. At that time there were indeed just as many internal activities and matters unfortunately became intertwined here and there. I want to make a serious appeal to him that we should debate about the present and that we should turn our back on the future when we debate these matters, because then we shall be able to have a constructive debate. I think he does indeed have a constructive contribution to make when it comes to a subject like this. We must deal with it in this manner because otherwise we shall, for example, begin to argue about internal activities and the desirability of matters such as the establishment of the Citizen, etc. Then we shall be in very dire straits.

We can talk about that.

Mr Chairman, I do not think it is meaningful to debate about that. If he prefers to do so, we can debate it, but in my view it is neither meaningful nor constructive.

In my view the foreign contribution of the Bureau could probably be scaled up, or there could be a greater contribution. I doubt, however, whether the foreign activities should once again be dealt with by two separate departments.

I did, in fact, make an appeal last year, and I wish to repeat my appeal that we should place some of the staff of the Bureau, particularly those who work with foreign guests, at our embassies on a seconded basis, as other departments do, in the interests of the experience which they would gain there and which they could bring back in order to make a better contribution here. If need be, they could be linked to the function of the so-called role interpreters one now finds at the embassies.

I also want to ask the hon the Minister whether he would not like to give us an indication as to whether any progress has been made with regard to the idea that this Bureau may receive an elevated status as a fully fledged Government department.

Mr Chairman, I think the whole of South Africa has been holding its breath for more than a decade, waiting for the veil to be lifted from the Information debacle. I cannot wait for that day to come.

Old news.

It is not old news. Then we will be able to see how many scapegoats there really were and how many people got away scot-free. I am not going to respond directly to what the hon the member for Springs said, but I agree wholeheartedly with him that the CP should spell out to us the extent of their partition policy, but in the same breath I also want to say that it is high time the NP told us what their constitutional alternative for the country was.

I shall come back to this later, but I now want to talk about the whole question of Boksburg and Carletonville. I think that South Africa is now sick and tired of this. The NP must simply acknowledge that the CP is implementing the law of the land. That is all. The only solution is to abolish those laws. It does not befit Mrs Claassens of Carletonville to travel hither and thither attacking the CP. I believe she should make a serious appeal to her NP Government for these two ungodly laws to be removed from the Statute Book.

I want to respond briefly to what was mentioned yesterday in this debate and in particular quote from the speech by the hon member Dr Golden. He said that Dr Connie Mulder had said:

He also said:

I should like the hon the Minister to tell us, at a later stage in his reply, how the Government of South Africa is really constituted. I believe that what Dr Connie Mulder said years ago was applicable to the unicameral system, but that it no longer applies within this tricameral system. Therefore to quote it in order to defend what the Government is doing is quite unacceptable. I believe that when we talk about a majority party, the policy of the majority party in this House of Representatives should also be spelt out by the Bureau for Information. [Interjections.] This is essential.

I also want to tell the hon member for Ger-miston, who referred to all the demonstrations, that English-speaking South Africans who vote for the NP certainly do not have the monopoly on patriotism. All English-speaking Whites are just as patriotic as he is, and the paternalistic way we are always treated is very offensive and he must stop this.

Today I want to agree with two NP members, namely the hon member for Bloemfontein East and the hon member for Sunnyside. They stated inter alia that the Bureau for Information should be used as a mechanism to inform the voters. I agree whole-heartedly with them. Reference was made inter alia to advertisements that had been placed. As long as the Bureau for Information is not used for NP propaganda, I shall agree with this view.

Yesterday reference was made to the hon the Minister’s speech at Meyerton. I do not want to go into this, because time does not allow me to do so. However, I want to approach, from another angle, the question of people who hold discussions with the ANC. In this regard I want to quote from The Star of last Friday, where the hon the Minister is reported as saying:

Has this hon Minister forgotten that there was a time when he also talked to the ANC in Athens? [Interjections.] The hon the Minister says this is a mistake. It was widely reported that he, together with a former hon member of the NP, held talks with the ANC in Athens. There have been various expeditions to Lusaka and Dakar, among other places. I could continue in this vein. Businessmen and students have undertaken these expeditions. However, the NP must remember that throughout the centuries enemies have held consultations with one another.

Representatives of the Boer Republics had to negotiate on a continual basis with the so-called enemy in London before the outbreak of the Boer War. We must not forget this. I want to ask the hon the Minister whether he is prepared to say that an elected leader in a national state cannot be trusted because he holds talks with the ANC. I am referring specifically to Chief Enos Mabuza of KaNgwane who regularly negotiates with the ANC and holds discussions with them because he believes that as South Africans we should talk to one another. I want to quote from a report in The Star of 13 March 1988 where Chief Enos Mabuza says, inter alia:

Is he also condemned for holding talks with the ANC? I like to believe that South Africans who have held talks with the ANC at some stage, sincerely and honestly have the interests of South Africa at heart. To me discussion means not only being accommodating, but also negotiating conditions by expressing criticism and receiving criticism so that South Africa’s trials and tribulations can be effectively brought to an end. I therefore find it very regrettable that the Government’s propaganda machine moves into top gear immediately after one of these visits in order to distort the truth about the ANC and those participating in the discussions.

I also want to dwell briefly on the regional publications to which the hon the Minister also referred earlier. I believe that these regional publications, including Southern Africa Today, should be employed to draw people closer together. They should be utilised so that people can get to know one another. They should be used to bring about reconciliation between White and Black. It is hopeless to distribute The Caret, which contains exclusively “Coloured news” in the Coloured community. Inform my people about the perceptions of the Whites. Tell the people in the Peninsula that Black people also exist. Perhaps we do not know one another. Not only have we become strangers to one another, but in the process we have built up all kinds of prejudices against one another. The truth is that people who do not know one another do not trust one another either. That is why we in South Africa have Black aspirations on the one hand, and Black fears on the other. This is precisely because we do not trust one another.

If people do not trust one another, they are always very suspicious of one another. I believe that a concerted effort should be made to utilise publications of the Bureau for Information to put people in touch with one another—particularly citizens of the same country—so that we can get to know one another and respect one another’s feelings.

Order! Just the following before I introduce the hon member for Umhlanga: Hon members will remember that I was unfortunately not in the Chair yesterday. A wide range of topics were debated yesterday. There was a debate on constitutional matters, the SABC and even the Bureau for Information and it was difficult to distinguish between these various topics. I therefore appeal to hon members to limit themselves to the discussion of the Bureau for Information and the SABC, which is the next item on the agenda.

Mr Chairman, I respect your ruling, because I think this debate actually started off as a debate on broadcasting but then it deteriorated somewhat. I would like to make use of the opportunity to refer to the financial affairs of the SABC. This is a subject that is considerably more prosaic than the lofty and less lofty political speeches we have listened to up to now, but I nevertheless think it is very important.

I wish to say immediately that it is certainly more pleasant this year than in the past to speak about the finances of the SABC. I wish to commence by congratulating the board and the management sincerely on the outstanding successes the SABC achieved during the past year in the financial field. The fact that the SABC has succeeded, after four consecutive years of operational losses, in bringing about an effective operational surplus of more than R41 million, is undeniable proof of the earnestness with which this problem has been handled by the board and the management—under the single-minded leadership of the chairman, Dr Brand Fourie, and the Director-General, Mr Wynand Harmse, respectively.

The success story in the financial field which can be read in the latest annual report, is directly attributable to their leadership and to the new spirit of financial discipline which has developed at the SABC under their leadership and which is now bearing fruit. I make this statement based on what Dr Fourie said in last year’s annual report under the heading “Finance”. I quote as follows:

Dr Fourie and his board had already committed themselves in that annual report to eliminating operational losses and to placing the corporation on a profitable basis by planning ahead in the financial sphere. This is exactly what happened. A good example of the success achieved in implementing this intention, is the restriction of the increase in the total normal operational expenditure to only 8,8%, namely half of the inflation rate, and 5% less than the rise in 1987, while the income in 1988 rose by a further 28% to R597 million.

I also wish to refer to the statement that the profit shown by the SABC this year and the reversal after four years’ losses could basically perhaps be attributed to a change in the SABC’s accounting policy. The hon the Minister also referred to that. This statement is, however, simply not true. As a matter of interest I wish to verify this with available information, namely that if the new policy had been applied in respect of the 1987 financial year, the SABC would have shown a loss of R30 million instead of a loss of R13 million based on the old accounting policy which was indicated in the 1987 annual report.

The statement that the SABC “cooked” the 1987-figures in some or other way in order to show the previous Director-General’s financial management in a bad light, is therefore extremely irresponsible and malicious and is not at all in keeping with the facts. I wish to draw hon members’ attention to four positive consequences of this healthy financial situation that I have already referred to and on which Dr Fourie, Mr Harmse and the SABC should be congratulated.

The first is that it enabled the SABC to issue approximately 230 000 concessionary licences, mainly to social pensioners and other people over 70 years old. This cost the SABC approximately R13,4 million. We on this side of the House ask the SABC to continue to accommodate our senior citizens in this manner.

†A second positive result of the Corporation’s sound financial situation is the fact that capital expenditure amounting to about R41 million could be financed fully from its own funds. This has also resulted in an even more favourable ratio of assets.

A third positive effect was the fact that the SABC awarded contracts, worth more than R47 million, to more than 200 outside production houses for the production of TV programmes and dubbings. This expenditure in the private sector, amounting to almost R19 million more than the previous financial year, is a positive development, not only in terms of its economic effects, but also because it results in a more authentic South African complexion of our television programmes.

*A fourth positive effect was the fact that the SABC could withstand the pressure to raise licence fees for another year. I think all of us welcome this. After all these positive things have been said, there is, however, one aspect of the financial affairs of the SABC which gives cause for some concern. That is the fact that there is a greater swing to advertising as main source of income. We know that the ratio between advertisements and licences is now 3:1. There are few national broadcasters in the world who are more dependent on advertising than the SABC. This ratio will simply have to change and the aim of achieving a better balance between the two sources of income will have to be single-mind-edly pursued.

One aspect in this connection which should continue to enjoy urgent attention, is the persistent problem of pirate viewing. I welcome the fact that according to the annual report another 50 licence inspectors are going to be appointed. Up to now there were only 166; therefore there will now be 216. The fact that more than 43 000 pirate viewers were traced during the past year, brought an income of nearly R4 million for the SABC. The absolute minimising of the calculated R13,4 million annual loss in income which is brought about by an estimated pirate viewing figure of 9%, should at all times be the aim.

I would like to hear from the hon the Minister whether the SABC has made any progress with regard to the possible monthly payment of licence fees. I believe all means should be used to see to it that licence evaders are caught. The evasion of the paying of licences should not lead to the fact that law-abiding citizens who pay their licence fees should in the future carry a heavier load.

†The present financial situation of the SABC looks very sound at this point in time. However, there is no room for complacency, for a number of reasons. Firstly, the cost of maintaining a high standard of programmes of overseas and local origin will continue to increase. Secondly, capital expenditure on the replacement of fixed equipment can be expected to escalate considerably in the next few years. Thirdly, the negative effect on advertising of a possible downswing in the economy cannot be quantified, neither can the effect of the granting of an open slot to M-Net during peak viewing time—a highly profitable time which generates approximately 41% of all TV advertising revenue.

I am sure the SABC has learned from past experience and will be taking all these considerations fully into account in its future financial planning. I have much pleasure in supporting this Vote.

Mr Chairman, this afternoon when, in his opening remarks on the SABC, the hon the Minister reacted to an interjection about Mr Riaan Eksteen, it sounded as if he wanted to tell the House that this was just another debate; if we must discuss this, then so be it.

Firstly, I want to say that we are not children. Secondly, we are not so naive as to believe that when a management decision is taken on 1 January that decision and its results will necessarily be reflected in the same financial year.

We know that many of the decisions that have been taken—even under the old dispensation, before the appointment of the present Director-General—are reflected in the figures before us. That is why this is a topical issue that must be discussed. We must discuss the people who were involved at the time, even though they are at present sitting on the wrong side of the fence as far as the present Government of this country is concerned. That is why we are going to discuss this.

†Let me say that my party, the LP, has been at the centre of the controversies that we believe have haunted the affairs of the SABC in recent times. Hon members will recall that—regardless whatever other reasons are given for the early departure of Mr Eksteen from the SABC as its Director-General—it cannot be denied that the blatant political interference by the then leader of the NP after the leader of the LP’s resignation from the Cabinet and the way in which his departure from higher office was handled by the SATV in its early news broadcasts, had much to do with this early retirement. I know there was a time lapse between that particular night and his departure, but one could feel the pressure building up. My party therefore feels that it has a stake in this resultant shake-up at Auckland Park.

I want to put the record straight today. The LP has nothing against the person of the present Director-General, Mr Wynand Harmse. In dealings with him prior to his appointment as Director-General we have always got along well. Since then we have continued with that good relationship.

*Last week the wives of hon members of the House of Representatives paid a special visit to the SABC in Johannesburg. They were received well. Mr Harmse has had a long career with the SABC and he has a good knowledge of the financial aspect of the organisation.

†On the other hand, we would be failing in our duty if we did not address in this Parliament the premature departure of Mr Eksteen as chief of the SABC. Doubly so, as we strongly believe that it was for political reasons, or more particularly because Mr Eksteen incurred the wrath of the then leader of the NP, that he was in a sense removed from office. Hon members will notice that I deliberately refer to Mr P W Botha as the leader of the NP at that time and not as the incumbent of the other official office that he holds. I do so deliberately for the LP believes that the SABC is being manipulated by the NP to subdue, to subject and also to indoctrinate the public at large to its point of view.

We have been bombarded with news on the situations in Boksburg and in Carletonville, but never is a picture shown of an NP-controlled town where separation still exists—it may be clandestinely and without boards, but nevertheless it exists.

*It is a crying shame that people are allowed to sit in the Parliament of the RSA while those very same people are subtly denied certain facilities.

†It is very important that not once throughout these broadcasts was it said that the law that was being applied was the law that was passed by the NP in this Parliament. If any staff member or official of the SABC steps out of line, action is taken against these people. That is our perception. We may be wrong, but that is how it is going to remain until proved otherwise. If this is not so, where are Riaan Eksteen and Freek Robinson? They are two of the principal characters who were involved in the Hendrickse resignation affair. Thomas Carlisle once said: “A man protesting against error is on the way towards uniting himself with all men who believe in the truth.” I would therefore be failing in my duty if I did not address in this debate Mr Eksteen’s departure and, even more importantly, the question as to whether that departure was premature. Let us also ask whether the SABC Board actively worked with the NP to remove its former Director-General, who has not even been given a customary thank you in the report of the SABC which is in front of us.

Perhaps the hon the Minister can also expand this afternoon on exactly what is meant by the statement in that report which reads: “The SABC and its staff had a trying and a difficult year.” In which way did they have a “trying” and “difficult” year?

The question may be asked whether Mr Eksteen was removed because he was mismanaging the affairs of the SABC, or whether it happened for other reasons. Let us look at this question in the light of the SABC’s own as well as newspaper reports.

When we read the latest annual report of the SABC we are told that Topsport was established in 1988 as an exciting, popular programme among the public, advertisers, sponsors, sports-bodies and sportsmen; so much so that the number of viewers of TV1 has doubled in this particular time slot. The growth in advertising revenue for sports slots has shot sky-high. Of course all South Africans have welcomed Topsport, but it is still a fact that the concept of Topsport was put together while the SABC was under Mr Riaan Eksteen’s control. Must I remind this Committee that the SABC’s new outlook on sport was announced to the South African Communication Association in Johannesburg on 3 September 1987 by none other than Mr Eksteen. It is true that under Mr Harmse’s guidance the foundation of the new sports programmes, which was laid by Mr Eksteen, was cemented, but let us give credit where credit is due.

*Those of us in this country who are of a slightly darker complexion have always been aware of the fact that the Afrikaner nation in particular, when they fall out with somebody, fall out with him so severely that they even refrain from mentioning that person’s name.

†The 1988 SABC annual report is significant not for what it says, but more particularly for what it does not say. We find for example that the 1988 report says as far as religion is concerned:

What is new about this, however? After all, Parliament was told in the 1987 annual report of the SABC, the previous annual report, that:

Eventually they say that there is close cooperation with church organisations.

It is the same thing, dished up and represented as if it were a new thing. We must guard against dishing up old news as if it were new, regardless of our motives.

The latest annual report speaks in glowing terms of the success of Radio 2000. I for one would want to congratulate the SABC on the success of this 23rd internal radio station. To notch up a listenership of 400 000 in the first year of operation is no mean feat.

On the other hand I cannot forget that this project was planned under the management of the previous Director-General. But once again no credit is given to him. Let me remind this Committee that in the annual report of 1987 details of Radio 2000 were already given. In fact, it was even envisaged at that time that the new full-fledged service would lead to transmitter cost savings of several millions of rands, over and above the annual large savings on operations.

The question is whether these savings materialised. Perhaps the hon the Minister can inform us.

Secondly, the new method of operation of Radio 2000 would also allow for the leasing of air-time which the SABC did not need for itself. At that stage details were given of Radio Pulpit and reference was made to other possible interesting groupings.

I repeat that although these services have flourished under the new management they were initiated under the old management. Could it then fairly be said that Mr Eksteen was mismanaging the SABC?

Let us look at another aspect of the operations of the SABC, namely that of simulcasting TV programmes. I am pleased to note that the latest SABC report says that simulcasts have become a permanent feature. I can well recall the consternation which erupted after Mr Eksteen’s announcement in July 1987 of the wider application of simulcasting. I can also recall that he had to defend the decision and also state the priority the SABC gives to the use of Afrikaans when he spoke at the annual congress of the FAK.

Mr Chairman, this afternoon I have dealt with the Eksteen affair at length, for my party and I believe that he was forced to resign from the services of the SABC because …

By whom?

I am glad that hon member asked that.

… because of pressure, directly or indirectly, from the NP Government. Until it can be proved conclusively to us that Eksteen had mismanaged the affairs of the corporation we will hold on to this view.

Let me say, while I get these interjections from my right-hand side, that I was in the gathering on that evening when Mr Eksteen was called out the first time. He was in an absolutely jovial mood, but he came back ashen. I can assure all hon members of that.

[Inaudible.]

Well, Mr Chairman, then I can only say to that hon member that he is lucky he was not shaken. He seems to be kind of used to that. While not doubting that the board of the SABC also has a significant role to play in the affairs of the corporation, we wish to state emphatically that the SABC will best flourish without daily interference from its board or the NP.

[Inaudible.]

Please, Mr Chairman, I remind that hon member again that he is not dealing with children.

We believe this is imperative if the SABC is to play its rightful role in a new South Africa. The SABC should remember that its listeners are not only NP members and that during the past year its radio services increased by more than a million adult listeners, most of whom were Black. It should therefore always reflect on this when it decides what it is to present and how it is to present its material. Let us never forget that in South Africa we have two worlds; that of the haves and that of the have-nots. There are people who can vote for a government in Parliament and people who cannot. Any person’s perspective is always clouded by his daily lifestyle and the forces to which it is subjected. The SABC radio and TV services should be used to unite this country’s people and not to accentuate differences.

*We should use the SABC’s facilities to unite the people of this country, otherwise the revolution for which our children will have to pay will be our fate. Furthermore, if we do not do this, we shall exclaim with Totius:

Mr Chairman, first of all I would like to comment briefly on the speech made by the hon member for Diamant. I think it has been a long time since I have heard a speech more sincere, more sensitive and more truthful in regard to the subject matter which he covered. I hope that the hon members on the Government side listened carefully to what he had to say, because there was a great deal of wisdom in it.

During the course of my small contribution to this debate I would like to touch on several aspects relating to the SABC, of which some are history and others of which will affect the future.

First I come to the annual report. It is gratifying to note that the finances of the corporation are once again, after three lean years, back on an apparently sound footing and that 1988 was rounded off with an adjusted profit of some R41 million. I am sure that everybody in this House and probably in this country is bored stiff of hearing about the Riaan Eksteen affair. However, I do agree with the hon member for Diamant, and it seems to me that at least some of the groundwork for the recovery of the SABC was done at the time when he was still in charge of affairs. I think it would have been honest and graceful for the report to have mentioned this point.

However, we all know that Riaan Eksteen was never appointed Director-General of the SABC because of his broadcasting or financial skills. We know that he was not appointed to the SABC director-generalship for that reason at all. Nor was he fired for his mismanagement of the Corporation. We all know, as was stated by the hon member for Diamant, that he was appointed for NP political reasons and he was eventually dismissed for other NP political reasons

That is unkind.

It is not unkind, it is truthful. It is a most truthful statement.

What an unedifying spectacle it was—interference by the hon the State President which he never denied, denials of that interference by the Board, a period of lull, during which time a false sense of security was created, and then the Board finally moving in to sack him and in doing so to ingratiate itself with the Crocodile. The political credibility of the SABC was all but destroyed at the time. Its independence lay in tatters. Last year it was the laughing stock of the country. It was an object of public derision and not of respect.

Surely there must be a lesson in this for both the Government and the SABC, and that is that political appointments to top positions in the SABC must come to an end, as far as both the Board of Governors and its management structure is concerned.

In the days of the chairmanship of Piet Meyer, who named his son Nazi backwards, the SABC became the repository for out of work Broeder-bonders. This shoddy phenomenon has faded in recent years, just as the Broederbond has faded, but both the board and the management remain overloaded with underproductive friends of those in powerful places.

This must change. The SABC cannot enjoy public credibility while it practises political nepotism. The road back to respectability will be a difficult one and not necessarily popular in the eyes of the governing party. However, it is a road upon which the SABC has to embark.

Right up to last week the old habit of favouring the governing party was alive and well and living in Auckland Park. The DP, newly formed, and having achieved a spectacular birth in Johannesburg, held its launch meeting …

Without a flag!

That is not the subject of my discussion. It held its launch meeting in the Cape Town City Hall and was addressed by Dr Wor-rall, the hon member Dr De Beer and the hon member for Randburg. Whatever members may think about my party, this was a meeting to remember. The city hall was filled to overflowing. There were about two and half to three thousand people—enthusiastic supporters who gave the party a rousing start here in the mother city. The Press was amply represented. Even the NP supporting newspapers were there. Foreign radio and television crews were present … [Interjections.] … but not the SABC.

The SABC had declined the invitation to cover the event, arguably one of the more spectacular political happenings of the year in Cape Town. No, the SABC representative here in Cape Town told us that the SABC would not be coming because, as he put it: “… the SABC has already been more than generous to the DP in the past few days.” That was his statement.

Can hon members believe it? In the minds of the hierarchy of the SABC news coverage of a political event is, despite what they say, not governed by its newsworthiness nor by its merit, but rather by the degree of generosity previously afforded by the SABC to the political party concerned.

Another SABC representative here in Cape Town made up, at short notice, another reason why the SABC would not cover the meeting. He told me that the SABC was not keen on covering DP meetings when all three of the co-leaders spoke because they feared criticism if they reported one leader more fully than another. Therefore he could not come to cover the meeting in Cape Town.

That is fair enough.

That is hardly fair enough. Hon members are clearly being frivolous about this. That is a remark worthy of a kindergarten.

No wonder the political credibility of the corporation is at such a low ebb. To make it worse, on the very next day the leader of the NP, Mr F W de Klerk addressed a fund-raising rally in Pietermaritzburg attended by approximately 10% of the number of people who turned up to the DP meeting in Cape Town. At this small meeting in Pietermaritzburg Mr De Klerk made no public announcements of any great importance, but merely tried to drum up support for his party.

Yet on the following day, from 7 am in the morning on breakfast television throughout the day on all radio stations during all news broadcasts, on the 6 pm and the 8 pm TV news, Mr De Klerk’s appearance in Pietermaritzburg was the lead story, covered in fine detail as only the SABC can do it—with close-ups, long quotes, the camera panning onto intent-looking faces gazing adoringly at the speaker, all thrown in.

[Inaudible.]

Fortunately they missed you.

This was his master’s voice at its best; generosity gone beserk!

But let us transport ourselves from these sins of the past to the possibilities of the future. The SABC is under new management, both professionally, and as from 30 June 1989, at board level as well. The DP is a new political party seeking to make its mark on the South African political scene. To test both the SABC and the DP there is a general election in the offing. The campaign is about to begin.

We ask no special favours in the weeks that lie ahead. Those who make this accusation should listen carefully. We will not hold a stop-watch during every news broadcast or election roundup. What we do ask however, is a fair deal. Our message must be given the same prominence as the political messages of the other parties taking part in the election.

An important point to remember is that for the first time in 30 years the leader of the NP in this campaign will not occupy the job of the political head of Government. That post will be held until after the election by Mr P W Botha who, it appears, will not let go of his executive power until the very last moment when he has no other option. This campaign is going to be lead by Mr De Klerk the leader of the NP who will have no executive status in terms of being State President at the time of the campaign. This means that his status will be no more nor less than that of the leaders of other political parties engaged in the election.

He is a Minister.

He is the Minister of National Education, but that is not relevant to the election campaign. [Interjections.] Let me finish my speech. I think the hon the Minister is just trying to interrupt me.

This means that Mr De Klerk will not have the status of head of Government when he speaks in public and God help us, let us hope he does not have it afterwards either! [Interjections.] He will, like others, merely be a candidate for the presidency. I hope the SABC takes note of this new and different state of affairs in its reportage.

[Inaudible.]

Contain yourself!

†I would like now to move away now from a hard political topic to another matter. Yesterday I received a letter from Mr Robert Kirby, a very well-known satirist in South Africa, who also came to see me. I want to quote part of this letter as follows:

The allegations relate to a television programme called Louis Motors and involve allegations of script distortion, the changing of the race of the lead character Percy from Coloured to White by the SABC without permission of the author, on the grounds that it was unwise to portray a Coloured foreman being in charge of a White apprentice. [Interjections.]

A further allegation relates to the delict of “passing off’ and to the SABC infringing section 20(2) of the Copyright Act. Lawyers have been helping Mr Kirby in discussing this with the SABC and apparently he is not making a great deal of progress. Mr Kirby states that he was prevented by the SABC decree from playing any role in the production of the series Louis Motors and even from having any contact with the director who is forbidden to get in touch with him throughout the production of this series.

He says that in viewing episodes of the series, he has become aware of severe distortions and mutilations of his script, especially with regard to inappropriate casting. He writes that the series has been condemned by the critics.

Mr Chairman, I am unable to judge all the rights and the wrongs of this matter. But as allegations by a respected writer concerning the possible wastage of over R2 million are involved, it does seem that answers are called for. I hope the hon the Minister obtains that information and gives me some answers. The documentation I have is available to the Press or anybody who wishes to see it.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Sandton referred to a number of topics to which I believe the hon the Minister will reply in due course. I personally feel that the birth of the new three-headed party— the Democratic Party or the “Divided Party”—was adequately covered on TV and reported in the media. I even thought at times that there was over-exposure instead of under-exposure. [Interjections.]

*This afternoon I want to emphasise the service that the SABC provides for the rural areas, and I want to refer specifically to the transmissions of Radio 2000 and TV4.

Radio 2000 is heard in large parts of the rural areas. The religious transmissions—there is a strong religious basis in the Radio 2000 transmissions— the soothing and tasteful music, sport and TV simulcast transmissions—make the programmes on this transmitter very popular. I have often received unsolicited positive comments on Radio 2000. The hon member for Diamant, quite rightly, spoke very positively about the transmissions of Radio 2000 here this afternoon.

Therefore it is understandable that there was great disappointment especially among the rural listeners, when 29 of Radio 2000’s transmitters were closed down. This left a void in a large part of the rural areas. I am sure that there were good reasons for closing down those 29 transmitters. However, the assertion is being made that the step was taken without any prior warning being given to the listeners. I shall appreciate it if the hon the Minister can provide us with further details regarding the closing down of these transmitters in his reply to the debate. I believe that it will do away with unnecessary speculation with regard to this matter once and for all.

Having said this it is also important and necessary to point out that the vast majority of people in South Africa do enjoy good FM reception via the radio services. It is interesting to see that 96,7% of the population can tune in to Radio Suid-Afrika, Radio South Africa, Radio Orion and Radio Allegro. Nearly 100% enjoy a community radio service, for example Radio Good Hope, and between 43% and 95% receive a Black radio service, for example Radio Xhosa. I think—measured by all standards—it is an exceptional achievement on the part of the SABC.

The radio coverage in South Africa therefore is good and only 4% of the listeners are affected by the closing down of the 29 transmitters in the rural areas. However, what is involved here is a service that was very popular, that made provision for certain needs and which listeners did not want to see shut down. I want to ask the hon the Minister whether something cannot be done to remedy this matter. I shall revert to this matter briefly at the end of my speech.

There is another matter that is causing dissatisfaction in the rural areas, namely TV4. People in the rural areas complain that they cannot receive TV4, although they pay the same licence fees as other viewers and listeners in the cities. As far as this point is concerned, the critics and those who complain do not always keep in mind South Africa’s difficult topography which impedes signal distribution, the sparsely populated and extensive areas, the transmitting equipment which has to be imported at great expense and the necessity of replacing transmitters.

It must also be borne in mind that the cost to build and utilise transmitters increases drastically if one moves to the rural areas. A transmitting station in a densely populated area such as Johannesburg—I think these details have already been mentioned in debates—only costs the SABC 14c per person per year to operate as compared to R37 per person per year for the smaller rural towns. The problem is that as a result of the uneven population distribution in the country, the SABC has to make use of cross-financing. This places tremendous pressure on the SABC’s available funds.

TV4 is not a national service. In exchange for licence fees, the SABC offers only a basic service package that consists of TV1, Radio Suid-Afrika, Radio South Africa and a Black radio station within regional context. All additional services received by TV viewers as well as radio listeners must be seen as a bonus and depend on what can be afforded.

When all these things have been said, however, we have not yet arrived at the solution to the problem and the dilemma facing the rural areas in respect of these matters.

Radio and TV transmissions are particularly important to people who live in the remote areas of our country, because these two means of communication, namely radio and TV, become an indispensable friend to most people in the rural areas. The problem still remains that of what can be afforded, together with the availability of funds.

This afternoon I wish to ask the hon the Minister two questions regarding the funds, and I want to ask him to give them serious consideration. Firstly, while the heavy demands on the Treasury must be taken into account, I want to ask whether the Government cannot make a contribution to the cost of the services in the rural areas.

I want to ask a second question. What I am going to say now is certainly not going to be popular. There is a programme on TV in which the character says: “Ek wil dit sê en ek gaan dit sê”, no matter how unpopular it is, because what we are concerned with here is the solution to a very big problem. In my opinion it can be solved by means of a small adjustment. That is why I want to ask whether consideration cannot be given to a slight increase in licence fees. I feel that that will drastically reduce the backlogs being experienced in the rural areas with regard to radio and TV services, and might even eliminate them. I think that by means of this slight contribution, we can provide a special service to the rural areas with regard to radio and TV broadcasts, which is extremely urgent and necessary.

Mr Chairman, the hon member Dr Golden will forgive me if I do not react to his speech. However, I would like to comment on the speech made here this afternoon by the hon member for Diamant. I want to compliment him on a very good presentation, a presentation that I think will get the necessary reaction from the hon the Minister. It was not only of interest to us, but I am sure the contents of that speech would be welcomed by many on the outside, because answers have to be forthcoming.

This is my second bite at the cherry in this debate and I am pleased to participate in this Vote, with special reference to SABC-TV. Unfortunately, because of time constraints, I will be confining myself more to the TV set-up as it affects the Indian community.

We note with interest the intention of SABC-TV to cater for the cultural and religious needs of the Indian community, by presenting programmes to mark important days on the calendar. Whilst welcoming this decision, I must caution that the success of these programmes will depend on the content, but moreover on who compiles these programmes. Can hon members imagine the difference between programmes compiled for the Indian community by, say, a member of the Portuguese community and those compiled for the Indian community by an Indian himself?

The first-hand knowledge of the subject is vitally important and will obviously contribute to a better programme. Furthermore, the scheduling of Indian programmes during hours when TV1 and TV4 are not in operation is not the ideal situation. There is a definite need for the different cultures to be understood, and understood by all South Africans as such.

Indian cultural programmes would serve a dual purpose if slotted during either English or Afrikaans viewing times on a regular basis, not only on the important days as marked on Indian calendars for celebration purposes. Furthermore, I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to request personnel in charge of programmes to resist the temptation to screen canned films from abroad. We need to expose Indian culture to our fellow South Africans, thereby creating a better understanding and respect as individuals and communities.

We therefore need live locally produced cultural programmes with the emphasis on the South African community as represented by all of us.

Much has been said about time allocated for elections on television. I would like, with elections not so far ahead of us, to appeal to the hon the Minister that SABC-TV devotes equitable time to the Houses of Delegates and Representatives. Accusations have been levelled at the Corporation for discriminating against opposition parties. This could similarly be said of the time allocated to the different parties in the other two Houses. I obviously expect the Bureau for Information to advertise the elections as free and fair. I would ask that the expression “free and fair” be seen on SABC-TV in its allocation of time for a fair and just distribution.

With regard to radio services, I must compliment the persons responsible for compiling and presenting the Parliamentary report. Unfortunately this programme is far too short to cover the needs of all three Houses. More so, with three extended committees meeting simultaneously an injustice is done not only to the proceedings of Parliament but also to the compilers and presenters themselves. More time needs to be made available for a service that is informative, well received, but far too short, as I have said.

Radio Lotus is the ethnic arm of the SABC that caters for the musical needs and appetite of the Indian community. This station has grown in content and listenership since its inception. It is safe to say that the standard of programmes on Radio Lotus has definitely improved and all presenters need to be complimented for improved standards. If I may mention one presenter by name I would like to refer to a gentleman who contributes to both SABC-TV and Radio Lotus, the Parliamentary reporter, Mr Ami Nanackchand. His programmes on Radio Lotus are more than complementary to Parliament and its proceedings. The programme Lotus Review is also far too short and we would ask that more time be allocated to Lotus Review for a more meaningful presentation of the proceedings here.

The system of extended public committees has its advantages and disadvantages. The opportunity to address a committee, representing all three Houses, is welcomed. However, unfortunately with three committees meeting simultaneously, we are sometimes expected to be in two committees on the same day. I have this problem tomorrow and I would ask the hon the Minister please to accept my apologies for not being present here tomorrow when he replies to this Vote as I will have to do justice elsewhere.

Mr Chairman, right at the outset I want to tell the hon the Minister that I have the same problem as the hon member Mr Seedat. Yesterday and today I was involved in three different debates, which is virtually impossible. Even hon members of the Opposition cannot manage that. [Interjections.]

I have been involved in opposition politics for a period of approximately 15 years. I was a full-time liaison officer, journalist and publicity agent for the PFP and its predecessors. All those years teach one about the many problems an opposition party faces in politics. We have experienced it first-hand, but do hon members know what our biggest problem was? It was not the NP; it was the SABC. [Interjections.] Our biggest opponent was not the NP. In Cape Town our biggest opponent was Die Burger, not even the NP machinery, because Die Burger does their work for them. [Interjections.] On a national level I should like to see how the NP fares during election time without having an SABC slavishly soft-soaping it. I am saying this because that is what I have experienced for many years, and I am still experiencing it. [Interjections.] During an election the SABC is absolutely shameless. They stand and fall by the NP. One day they shall will with them, because they stand with them.

I refer to the referendum of 1983. During that referendum I had the unenviable task of propagating the no-vote. [Interjections.] The CP also propagated the no-vote, and it is very difficult to ask the people in my constituency to vote with the CP, even though there are different reasons doing so.

During that referendum it was only the SABC that really covered the campaign. [Interjections.] If one considers that it is the taxpayer who pays for that campaign, I think it is a disgraceful way in which a company that was created by the public is abused in order to keep a political party in power. I say that in all frankness.

A few years ago—I shall not mention the man’s name, because it was one of the top people in the SABC—just after the CP broke away, someone said to me: “We will use the SABC and television to destroy the CP.” I am not going to say who it was, because I do not do things like that. [Interjections.] What I want to say, is that they must not try to pull the wool over our eyes. Stop saying that the SABC is not an instrument of the Government. Stop saying that the Government is not in fact using and abusing it in order to harm its opponents, because no one in South Africa will believe that.

You are insulting the SABC.

No one believes the Government when it says that the SABC is impartial. They laugh at them. The people here, our hon members, are still very civilised and do not laugh so loudly. [Interjections.]

I want to come to my prepared speech.

According to a report in the Cape Times of 30 March the hon the Minister of Information, Broadcasting Services and the Film Industry said during a seminar at RAU that—

If that is indeed the case—I believe it is—we undoubtedly have the worst possible government today, because as a result of a deliberate policy of selectively informing and misinforming the the public, the South African public, and the present-day White electorate in particular, is one of the worst informed groups in the world with regard to what the situation in South Africa is at present.

At this stage it should be quite clear to any intelligent observer that the Government—as they still claim—should not use the information machinery of the State in order to counteract some or other revolutionary foreign onslaught.

Now that Russia and even Cuba and Fidel Castro, cigar and all, are all of a sudden no longer the monsters they used to be, it ought to be clear that, the Government’s real enemy has, in fact, always been South Africa’s own people, and the Black majority in particular. The fight in South Africa is an internal battle between two conflicting groups. I can quote from speeches made by Mr Eksteen and others who have confirmed this. On the one hand there is a White minority government together with a few co-opted minorities who basically wish to maintain the present status quo and their autocratic rule at all costs. On the other hand we have the overwhelming majority of South Africans who demand that the present racist and undemocratic minority government be replaced by a non-racial democracy which will do justice to the majority.

In the fight between these two groups the Government and also this hon Minister’s department in particular, and the SABC, have blatantly taken sides against the second group, the majority. The result is that all news and information which might jeopardise the position of the minority government and which could possibly strengthen the position of the majority, is simply not used or is blatantly distorted, or important aspects of the points of view of those people are left out. Omission is more dangerous than not using something in its entirety.

†In an attempt to do this successfully, the Government has intentionally created two vacuums—an information vacuum and a leadership vacuum.

In the first instance it has created an information vacuum for a very specific and devious reason, and that is to fill that information vacuum with its own propaganda. In this regard the hon the Minister of Communications, Mr Stoffel Botha, and the hon the Minister of Information, Broadcasting Services and the Film Industry, Dr Stoffel van der Merwe, complement each other beautifully.

Through the closing down, restricting and severe censorship of the news media by the hon the Minister of Home Affairs and of Communications, the Government has created a serious information vacuum. However, this is then enthusiastically filled by the hon the Minister of Information, Broadcasting Services and the Film Industry and especially by the SABC with totally distorted and one-sided information. I want to ask the hon the Minister if in a state of emergency—as other hon members have mentioned earlier—where the media are as restricted as they are, he can fulfil his task to create an informed public which, it is said, one needs for good government? There is no way this is possible in a state of emergency because the free flow of information has virtually been destroyed.

Although I could refer to many examples, today I want to refer to only one specific person on the news staff of the SABC who, I believe, has excelled himself in the art of disinformation, innuendo and character assassination. Had there been an Artes award for the category “most biased newsman of the year” this man would have won the award every year. I am, of course, referring to Cliff Saunders—also referred to as Cliff Slanders—whom I have chosen very carefully and whose programmes regularly poison the minds of millions of viewers. I believe it is time that this person was asked to retire. He should rather become a full-time employee of the NP in an election office. Over a number of years we have watched programmes presented by that gentleman which are blatantly biased. I believe that they actually are at a point where one could say it should be illegal to show films of that nature. No attempt is made to present a neutral point of view … [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, there is a rumour going around here. I do not know if it is true, but it is being said that Mr Harmse does not have a telephone in his office [Interjections.]

Reference was made earlier to Mr Freek Robinson, who was also involved in the same episode. I met Mr Robinson last year in England and I want to tell the hon the Minister that that man is very homesick. [Interjections.] Can the hon the Minister not grant him an opportunity to come back? [Interjections.]

With regard to the hon member for Claremont’s reference to Mr Cliff Saunders, the feeling in the ranks of my party is that it is very dangerous to have an interview with him.

†One really dents any credibility one might have had by speaking to that man.

I believe the SABC can play a very important role in South African society. It is a medium which reaches thousands upon thousands of people on a daily basis. As we all know, a visual impression is much more effective than a written one. I believe the SABC has a definite role to play in creating a new society—a new South Africa. They should consciously set about promoting the whole question of a non-racial society—in the sense where race will not be used as the basis or the determining factor in what will happen to a person as regards the opportunities available to him.

It can be done by constantly showing school children playing and growing up together and children at non-racial schools mixing together in the classroom and on the playgrounds so that people can see it is possible to achieve that new society we all want.

I believe that the SABC can influence people’s thinking on the repeal of the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act in a positive sense by portraying people together at the work-place and resorts or beaches. Unfortunately, the only time we get to see or hear anything on the SABC about separate amenities is when conflict situations arise and so-called racial fights break out on mixed or open beaches. I believe that if they were to show those thousands upon thousands of people all over the country who are mixing together, playing together and sharing together, it will play a role in achieving that new South Africa.

Something else I would very much like to see on television is political debating—debates between various political parties. I do not consider the so-called debate between the hon Leader of the NP and the hon Leader of the Official Opposition as a political debate. That was merely a case of giving everybody a chance of making continuous statements. We should almost have a free-for-all rough and tumble session on television, allowing people to have a go at each other and state very clearly what they want and what they mean.

Such a programme can only stimulate the interest in what is happening here in Parliament. That will be a lot more effective than having squirrels telling people to vote.

As somebody who was very active in the municipal elections last year, I can assure hon members that the high percentage of people—it was 73%—who voted for the representatives of the Uitenhage management committee was not a result of the propaganda campaign of the hon the Minister’s department. It was a result of the whole question of prior votes which gave political parties the opportunity of bringing more people to the polls.

I realise that in terms of the hon the Minister’s department his purpose is to convey the policies of the Government. However, it is my contention that the Ministers’ Councils form part of Government policy. Therefore I believe it is essential that the policy of the Ministers’ Council in the House of Representatives is also portrayed almost as ad nauseam on television as the Government’s policy is.

There is for example the whole question that the Ministers’ Council in the House of Representatives has a policy of open admissions to so-called Coloured schools and of allowing people of so-called other race groups into our group areas. These things must be conveyed. Unfortunately we do not see them being conveyed.

*Last year for example, we had a big debate about group areas and it has been repeatedly mentioned in the meantime. Do the so-called White voters really know how we feel about the Group Areas Act? Can they understand why we react as we do and why we mention this subject repeatedly? I do not believe they are aware of how we truly feel, because we are not granted the opportunity by the SABC to say how we really feel about group areas and separate amenities.

Reference was made earlier to Boksburg and hon members must forgive me if I mention it again. We saw a lot about Boksburg. I would go so far as to say that the SABC virtually had a share in the promotion of boycotts in Boksburg. I nearly said Boycottburg!

†During one news item I saw the journalist actively encouraging the person he was interviewing to ask people to boycott shops in Boksburg.

*I have no objection to that.

†I believe we must use our economic muscle in this country as a means of peaceful change. However, the problem, and we do not have this problem only in Boksburg but all over the country, is why people’s reaction to apartheid and separate amenities across the country is not enjoying the same prominence. Why is it only done in the CP-controlled Boksburg?

*I am just as dissatisfied about apartheid in Uitenhage. I am very upset because I cannot use the library in Uitenhage, and Uitenhage does not have a CP city council. This is a result of the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act.

In regard to news, the LP is the second largest party in Parliament. As someone said, that fact is as plain as a pikestaff. However, to look at the news and the reaction to events, one would never say it. We receive very little coverage, if any.

In the second place I wish to complain about the order in which the news items are presented. Firstly we have the Minister or the Government spokesman making the announcement, then perhaps the CP and the DP and then only the LP. I believe that as the second largest party our viewpoint should be put after that of the Government.

Regarding all the people returning after discussions with the ANC, I wish to say I am very interested in what they found out and experienced. I think it would be very nice if the SABC were to grant us the opportunity to hear how these people feel about their contact with the ANC.

†I believe the SABC must educate our people. Someone mentioned earlier that only an informed public can make informed decisions. The SABC must inform the voters of South Africa, particularly the White voters, of the whole cost of apartheid and explain to them why we have such high taxes, sanctions and disinvestment and also explain to them the whole cost involved in the duplication and triplication of services so that the voter can make the decision of whether or not he wants to support a policy which gives rise to such things.

“During a previous debate in the Chamber of Parliament I spoke about the whole question of the national flag. My cousin is three and a half years old and sometimes she stays up very late. One of the first things that she and our other children learn, is to “put it off”, because as soon as the national flag and Die Stem appears on television, they hear that. The national flag and Die Stem offends many people who watch SABC-TV. I want to ask the hon the Minister to consider whether it is truly necessary for SABC-TV to conclude in the evenings with the national flag and Die Stem. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, firstly I want to thank the hon the Minister for the reply he gave this afternoon and apologise for not being able to be present, due to circumstances, during the introduction. I thanked the officials yesterday and I hope that they will read about it in my Hansard.

The hon member for Springs attacked me by saying that my facts were not correct. He argued that an example I gave about the SABC being prejudicial to the CP was ostensibly not correct. Time and again in my speech I gave the day and date and the complete facts and as far as I am concerned none of my allegations were in any way refuted. The hon member was a journalist and we know that journalists are masters of the art of misconstruing facts. If he was in my class he probably would not have passed. While he was news editor at Die Transvaler, that newspaper collapsed. [Interjections.] At the moment it is a local little newspaper in Pretoria and no longer the newspaper it used to be. Since he started working at the information service of the NP, that party has also been deteriorating and I believe that he will also complete this process there.

I should like to reply to some of his statements. He said my statements about the partition programme were totally inaccurate. My statements concerned the fact that the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning repeatedly replies to speakers and concludes the programme. That was the point. The group areas programmes which he then mentioned as an example followed the same pattern. The Deputy Minister is the person who repeatedly replies and concludes the programme, and the question is when we will have a chance to reply in such a programme to allegations made about us.

The points I made about Carletonville and Boksburg were about the sequence of the speakers. He did not reply to this at all and tried to put a completely different point of view. Maybe I must ask him whether he looked at my Hansard before he made his speech this afternoon. If he had read it, we would have had far less trouble in that regard.

In his introductory remarks last year the hon the Minister referred to the different cultures in South Africa and the fact that the SABC also regards the communication and the enhancement of culture as part of its task. I fully agree with this. During the Eksteen era, however, this aspect deteriorated dramatically especially as far as Afrikaans and the Afrikaans culture were concerned. In the days of Piet Meyer and until the early eighties, for example, it was planned in advance on a yearly basis to broadcast special cultural programmes on Afrikaner cultural holidays. Nothing came of this at the end of the Eksteen period. I shall give a few examples by comparing two years with each other, with about three holidays each year.

On 31 May 1980, Republic Day, a programme about Dr D F Malan was broadcast in prime time. The programme was announced as a programme for Republic Day about our fourth Prime Minister. In the same year, on 9 October, a public holiday before Heroes’ Day, a programme about C R Swart was broadcast in prime time. This was advertised as a programme for a special occasion for Heroes’ Day. On 16 December 1980, the Day of the Vow, a Day of the Vow programme entitled Een eeu na Paardekraal, 1880 was broadcast at half-past six in the evening. At seven o’clock that same evening a programme about the history of De la Rey, which dealt with the beginning of the First World War, was broadcast. On the same day in prime time, just after the news at half-past eight, a documentary about Massada, dealing with Israel and a nation’s pride and will to survive, was broadcast.

I want to compare this with the 1986 programmes during the Eksteen era. I watched the same programmes on the same days to try and compare it. To be fair I even watched on the days before and after. On 30 and 31 May, Republic Day, and on 1 June 1986 there were no programmes referring to 31 May at all or indeed any special programmes. On 10 October 1986, Heroes’ Day, there were no such programmes. The closest one could get to this was the first episode of Shaka Zulu which started on 29 October. However, I presume that this was pure coincidence. In 1986 no reference was made on television news to any Heroes’ Day speeches. There was, however, a long news item about the Taiwanese 10-10 festival.

After complaints were received—I also phoned in—a short passage from a speech by Mr Willem Cruywagen was broadcast at the end of the main news items. I now come to 16 December 1986. In the morning, like every other year, there was a Day of the Vow service. The rest of the day there was nothing special. The nearest we had to something resembling the pattern of 1980 was a 20-minute cartoon at 12h00 about Racheltjie de Beer for the children.

Mr Chairman, I mention these details to indicate the tendency over the past few years. I can carry on in this vein and mention many other facts. If the SABC is in earnest about its task of cultural communication and the broadening of culture, this trend must change. What happened to Jan Scholtz’s dramas like Jopie Fourie and Die Vrede van Vereeniging? Are we afraid that our history might offend others? I am not offended when I watch Zulu history as depicted in Shaka Zulu.

As far as the present period, the Harmse period, is concerned, it is still too early to judge. From some of his statements it seems that the communication and enhancement of culture will indeed receive more attention. We are following this with interest. If the guideline is to be the attention given to cultural festivals last year, it does seem as if we will receive a better deal. According to the annual report, 50 contributions about the Great Trek were broadcast in the radio programme Dagjoernaal.

However, I do not think the SABC was sensitive enough as regards the present division in regard to culture amongst Afrikaners. Figures were given here. The CP said it received 700 000 votes. This can be compared to the support of the Labour party and any other type of support, should someone be interested in that. Ultimately Mr Harmse wrote in a letter to the Volkswag about the Great Trek festival that, and I quote:

Then he explained that politics played no part in the different approaches because the Board of the SABC gave instructions that the trek festivals be dealt with as cultural activities. I quote further from his letter:

How does one determine which organisation is most representative of the Afrikaner nation? Is it the 7 000 people at the Monument, of whom half were soldiers and policemen who participated, or the 60 000 who spontaneously turned up at at Donkerhoek? I should like to know what the free publicity the SABC broadcast days before the FAK festival through announcements just before the main television news items and announcements in Good Morning South Africa would have amounted to in terms of television advertising costs. My youngest child at home could tell days before the final FAK festival exactly at what time Mr Botha would be sitting down, at what time Mr Botha would make a speech, at what time the general salute would be taken, at what time Mrs Botha would write her verse in the Bible, etc.

Without any of this panic-stricken publicity 60 000 people arrived at Donkerhoek. This is according to Beeld. However, the Board of the SABC states that this festival was not representative of the Afrikaner nation. Let us assume for the sake of argument that the SABC was correct in saying that the Volkswag festival could only be reported as far as its news value was concerned. From this I could understand why one only heard about the FAK festival in Uit en Tuis and in Dagjoernaal. On the evening of 16 December 1988, however, the two events should have been represented on the news because of their news value, according to the norm. When last did hon members attend a function at which a speaker had to address 60 000 people? This is newsworthy to anyone in South Africa who is interested in the numbers of the right wing, whether they agree with it or not. Hon members should really go and watch that eight o’clock television news on video again. Incidentally, the meeting of the Afrikaner Volkswag was only mentioned in a few minutes without it ever being possible to form an idea of the mass of people present. The rest of the news was devoted to the FAK function.

To make sure that the newsworthiness of the smallest crowd ever addressed by a South African Prime Minister or leader reached all viewers, the second half of Network was also devoted to an edited version of the FAK function after we had had to watch a live broadcast for hours in the morning and see how the poor cameramen had to struggle to find the right angle to make the crowd look vaguely respectable.

I say that the SABC was blatantly prejudicial to the FAK festival with a tenuous argument, that of the most representative festival, and did not even follow its own norm of newsworthiness of an occasion as far as television news broadcasts are concerned. We will have to see during the Harmse era whether it takes its promises of cultural communication seriously. If my information is correct that the SABC decided, for example, not to produce the 10 episode series about the Trichardt diary in the Great Trek festival year—and that in a period when it shows a profit of R58 million—I begin to get worried. At the same time it was decided to contribute R2,5 million to produce the film Back to Freedom.

My criticism against this film is not about the fact that the SABC is co-producer with a commercial company. This has been done in the past and I understand it. What does surprise me, is the judgement of the SABC in spending such an amount of money on such a product. Will it be gaining more from this than, for example, from the Trichardt series which cost up to R1 million less? According to Beeld of 19 November 1988, this film is a box office failure. This means that the SABC will be getting in very little of its planned revenue from the film. Apparently the film was not made for the Department of Foreign Affairs and they are not prepared to buy it. It is said, however, that the film was made on instructions from higher authority.

Where is the higher authority? Who is the higher authority? Was I wrong in assuming that it could have been a secret project of one of the hundreds of committees in the security system which are making plans and that the poor SABC will ultimately bear the brunt of the responsibility and the loss? Originally I did not think so, but after reports in the Press about it the Ministers were in such a hurry to make statements about the origins and objectives of the film that I really cannot find any other explanation for it. I want to mention a few examples to hon members. When the first reports about the film appeared, reports about the film in which Miss Rozanne Botha and Prof Human appear under pseudonyms, almost in the same way as in the old days of Information, the denials started. The hon the Minister of Information. Broadcasting and the Film Industry said:

He is, therefore, innocent. He passes the buck. Mr Schlebusch immediately said that he had no comment. Should circumstances change, he would break silence and comment on the issue.

Until this stage I was not even interested, but then I started taking an interest in what was going on. Suddenly a project which I had thought was innocent became something serious. Subsequently the hon the Minister of Information, Broadcasting and the Film Industry said in a statement shortly before midnight—very dramatically, this time of the night—that although he had said that the contract had been signed three budgets before his time, it was merely a matter between the Board of the SABC and the producers. Therefore the hon the Minister apparently had nothing to worry about and fortunately had no responsibility for the handling and the implementation of this kind of stupid—-the word “stupid” is my little word and not his project.

In the same report the previous Minister, Mr Schlebusch, said, however, that he refused to allow the last instalment of R500 000 to be paid. Therefore some Ministers do have a say about what money is spent on and who is to receive it—apparently not the present Minister. The one denied it, but the other said he refused to pay the money. However, the contract was signed before Minister Schlebusch received the responsibility and he gave dates to indicate that the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs was really the person responsible. Now they were passing the buck sideways.

In the meantime it was declared that the film was not a propaganda film at all and that it had not been produced with that in mind. Unfortunately, in the same newspaper, the Defence Force made a statement about its involvement and gave the reason why Rozanne Botha, as production coordinator, could receive such generous aid for the film from the Defence Force. It was calculated as a donation of up to R100 000. In spite of the denial that the film was for propaganda purposes, the Defence Force said in its statement that they only give aid for films which served as propaganda for the Defence Force. For this reason financing could be made available for this film, but not for the film Wêreld sonder grense.

It is not the present hon Minister’s fault that he had such a stupid predecessor who did not co-ordinate with him when they and the Defence Force started making statements. It is clear from their statements that they made a big issue of this and I would still like to know the reason for their nervousness. I must be right in thinking that there is some secrecy surrounding the whole project.

Finally I should like to ask the hon the Minister a few questions. Firstly I want to say that opinion polls on various aspects were carried out by the Bureau for Information. This was done with State funds for the Government and the State. I assume that all political parties should have access to the information gathered in this way, because surely it is not intended for the NP’s strategy. I would like to know whether we can also have access to that information. [Time expired.]