House of Assembly: Vol13 - TUESDAY 21 FEBRUARY 1989
The sign * indicates a translation. The sign †, used subsequently in the same inerpellation, indicates the original language.
General Affairs:
Mr C D de Jager asked the Minister of Finance:
- (1) Whether prior to 31 March 1988 a Deputy Minister of his Department reprimanded the then member for East London City by letter for having furnished false information in documents for the importation of motor-cars; if so,
- (2) whether he will make known the contents of this letter?
Mr Speaker, let me just say that at the time this matter was dealt with comprehensively by my hon colleague, the then Deputy Minister. Therefore today I have to rely merely on documented information. I have no personal recollection of any of these events. At this stage it is a pleasure for me to extend my sincere congratulations to my hon colleague, whose assistance I have called upon and who is sitting here near me, for the professional and absolutely correct manner in which he dealt with the matter at the time. This is an indication of sound and clean administration.
The answer to the first portion of the question before the House today is no. The letter focused the then hon member for East London City’s attention on the fact that the person, on whose behalf he made representations, had made a false statement. It was also mentioned that as a legal man it probably did not need to be pointed out to him in what a serious light false statements are regarded.
To the second portion of the question the answer is yes. A copy of the letter is being made available. To save time I should like to quote extracts from it:
In die geval van mnr Christian Palazzolo is sy voertuig op 15 Januarie 1986 aangekoop en het hy op 26 Desember 1986 reeds in Suid-Afrika aangekom. Daar bestaan dus geen voorsiening waarvolgens mnr Palazzolo toegelaat kan word om die voertuig met korting op reg te klaar nie.
Hoewel die voertuig van mnr Pietro Efisio Palazzolo op 14 Oktober 1985 aangekoop en op 3 Februarie 1987 na Suid-Afrika verskeep was, was hy ook volgens die inligting deur u en in ’n beëdigde verklaring deur hom verskaf, gedurende hierdie tydperk vir lang periodes nie in Europa waar hy die voertuig kon gebruik het nie. Gelet op die bepalings van Opmerking 9 waarna hierbo verwys is, is dit duidelik dat in hierdie geval ook nie aan die neergelegde vereistes voldoen word nie.
Nòg die Kommissaris nòg ek …
This refers to my hon colleague—
Een aspek wat ernstige kommer wek, is die feit dat mnr Pietro Efisio Palazzolo in ’n beëdigde verklaring verklaar het dat hy vir sekere tydperke in Europa was en dat hy gedurende die betrokke tydperke die voertuig uitsluitlik vir sy private gebruik aangewend het. Volgens inligting tot die beskikking van die Kommissaris (van Doeane en Aksyns) was mnr Palazzolo egter gedurende van die tydperke wat hy volgens sy verklaring in Europa was wel in Lesotho/Suid-Afrika. As regsgeleerde hoef u seker nie gewys te word op die ernstige lig waarin valse verklarings beskou word nie.
[Time expired.]
Mr Speaker, I thank the hon the Minister for the information, because there are quite a few ambiguities on that score. The hon the Minister referred to a sworn statement made by Mr Palazzolo, whilst the Harms Commission found, in paragraph 86, that Mr De Pontes had made such a sworn statement on 13 March 1987.
On page 33 of the report the Harms Commission also found that the then hon Deputy Minister, the present Minister of the Budget and Works, wrote a letter to Mr De Pontes, on 18 June 1987, dealing with the motor vehicles, a letter in which he was severely reprimanded owing to incorrect information having been furnished to the department.
I do not understand why Mr De Pontes was severely reprimanded for incorrect information which Mr Palazzolo supposedly furnished. The commission found that Mr De Pontes was severely reprimanded for the incorrect information that was furnished. Surely the commission cannot hold Mr De Pontes responsible for information someone else furnished.
Let me then ask whether this sworn statement, apparently given to the Department of Customs and Excise on 13 March 1987 by Mr De Pontes himself, was not made available to the then hon Deputy Minister. Was it ever in the hon Deputy Minister’s possession? If it was, in fact, in his possession, did he inform the hon the Minister of the fact that false information had been furnished? What steps did the hon the Minister take against a member of Parliament if he was, in fact, guilty of having made these false statements, as the Harms Commission declared he was in its finding. Was this reported to the Cape leader of the NP, and what steps did he take in that connection?
I also want to point out to the hon the Minister that according to the information at our disposal, the department knew, as early as June 1987, that false information had been furnished. I also want to point out to the hon the Minister that as a result the State suffered losses totalling R80 000 and that this was a crime for which one could be punished with a fine equal to three times the value of the relevant goods and a two-year prison sentence. Were any steps taken to prosecute? Was the amount of R80 000—the losses suffered by the State—recovered? What steps were taken to recover this amount?
It appears further that the Harms Commission was appointed a year after this reprimand. What interim steps were taken to salvage this situation?
Mr Speaker, the State did not lose any money. There is a father, his two sons and the father’s brother. When the department discovered that the father could not have used his car because he was in prison in Europe, the department immediately attached the father’s car, and at the same time one son’s car, which initially qualified for the exemption, and those two cars are still in the State’s storehouse and are the subject of correspondence. Payments were, in fact, made on the other two vehicles. Here we therefore have a case of no losses having been suffered.
To come back to the first question, Pietro Palazzolo nevertheless made a sworn statement which he gave to Mr De Pontes. Mr De Pontes sent it to the department, but the department had other information which convinced the department that that was a false statement. That is why my colleague pointed out to the member of Parliament that it was a false statement, in spite of the fact that it was a sworn statement. There was also a sworn statement, by Mr De Pontes himself, in which he stated, in a fashion, that as far as he knew those were the facts of the matter.
At that stage the department therefore knew in precise detail that there was something wrong with that statement made by P E Palazzolo, and said so in a letter to Mr De Pontes to point out to him that he should not summarily accept the information he received as being correct.
The department, together with the hon the Deputy Minister, therefore made the correct decision for the second time, deciding as they did that those individuals did not qualify for a rebate on duty to be paid. In other words, the information and the State’s assets were flawlessly dealt with. [Time expired.]
Mr Speaker, on 23 March 1988, almost a year ago, I asked the hon the Minister of Finance a question in connection with luxury cars landed in the Republic by Vito Roberto Palazzolo. On that occasion I was told that he had imported a motorcar at East London on 28 February 1987, that is almost two years ago. I was told that only one car was involved and that the duty had been fully rebated.
In view of that fact that this question was put to the hon the Minister of Finance in this Parliament way back in March of 1988, almost a year before the Harms Commission made its findings, I find it odd that the whole matter was not looked into by the Government then.
It was looked into!
Suddenly one had a number of cars being imported by one family. The only response that I received was in relation to one motorcar, while more were in fact involved. [Interjections.] They were not necessarily all imported by the same person, but the same family, the Palazzolo family, was involved. Surely, in view of that fact, any sensible person would have smelt a very large rat in the whole situation as regards the importation of these motorcars.
I submit that it should have been the Government’s own job to dig out the facts relative to this rather than leaving it to the Harms Commission eventually to make it public. I believe that that is one of the failings that we have to lay at this Government’s door. I believe they had the opportunity to catch up with this themselves, and they did not. It was left to the Harms Commission. I would therefore like to ask the hon the Minister why they did not do that at the time, and why the whole situation was not discovered by them when it was patently obvious that more than one car had been imported by the same family. [Time expired.]
Mr Speaker, since the hon Minister said that no losses had been suffered, there is just one further bit of information I want from him. Paragraph 162 of the Harms Commission’s report reads:
I am glad that we heard in this debate, however, that the vehicle had meanwhile been impounded. [Interjections.]
I also want to point out that the regulation states that anyone making a false statement must present a convincing argument in support of the contention that he was ignorant of the facts and that there was no negligence on his part. Mr De Pontes visited Mr Palazzolo in prison, however, and then made a statement that Mr Palazzolo, whilst apparently still in prison had actually been quietly driving round in the car for longer than a year. That, too, makes him guilty of this offence and is something for which he should be charged and which he should answer for.
Mr Speaker, it was not known to us that Mr De Pontes had visited Mr Palazzolo in jail. Because that statement had been accepted bona fide, the father’s car was, in fact, released without the payment of the duty. We would have lost R80 000 if the commissioner had not immediately, after the first indication that Palazzolo senior was actually in prison at that stage and could not have used his car, according to remark 9 contained in the schedule, felt that something was amiss and immediately confiscated that car. What is more, because he suspected that if there was the possibility of false statements in regard to the father, there could perhaps also have been a false statement in regard to the son, he immediately confiscated the son’s car too. At the moment there is still an exchange of correspondence. In other words, on the basis of the integrity of documentation, “on face value” certain concessions were made, but when the department began to grow suspicious, it took action accordingly and did, in fact, protect the State’s interests.
†My argument against the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central is that I do not think that it is fair to expect of the commissioner in that case to have anticipated the kind of activity that was in fact going on. The moment he had the slightest inkling of the possibility of fraudulent action, he acted and he acted in the best interests of clean administration and of protecting the interest of the State. Therefore, I am quite prepared, if any hon member still has any questions about this whole affair, to give them all the information in my office. We do not have time to debate this at length here today but there is absolutely nothing on which the slightest conclusion can be drawn that anybody in either the Ministry or in the Department was negligent in the slightest way. In fact quite the opposite is quite clear if one analyses the issue. [Time expired.]
Debate concluded.
Mrs H Suzman asked the Minister of Law and Order:
- (1) Whether any detainees are currently on hunger strike; if so, what are the relevant details;
- (2) whether any of those detainees who declared themselves to be on hunger strike this year are no longer in the prisons in which they were at the time of making such a declaration; if so, what are the relevant details?
Mr Speaker, the reply is as follows. From time to time persons in detention declare that they are on a hunger strike, only to spontaneously start eating again normally a day or so later. This is done for a variety of reasons and these range from personal considerations, alleged unsatisfactory conditions, the pursuit of political aims etc.
Since approximately 23 January 1989 and on subsequent dates, a varying number of several hundred detainees participated in hunger strikes at a few South African prisons, namely the Johannesburg Prison; St Albans Prison, Port Elizabeth; East London Prison; Durban Prison and Pietermaritzburg Prison.
It is clear that these hunger strikes are politically inspired and are being orchestrated and co-ordinated in an underhand manner from inside as well as outside the prisons. On that point there can be no doubt.
It is planned in such a manner to coincide with the actions of anti-South African as well as extra-parliamentary pressure groups to discredit the South African Government and South Africa. They are not at all concerned about the damage which these actions will cause to South Africa and the persons involved.
Inside the prisons it is the work of a small group of ringleaders—hardened leftist activists—who, among other things, by means of cruel intimidation, control the group to such a degree that many detainees are too afraid to break away. Of this we have irrefutable evidence.
Since I started negotiations with legal advisers, church leaders, parents etc on 14 February 1989, the hunger strike has ended country-wide and at present there are detainees in only a few prisons who allege that they are still on a hunger strike. During this week I intend to hold further discussions with legal advisers, parents and other interested parties and I trust that the entire hunger strike will soon be a thing of the past.
Taking into account all the available information, the process of consideration of all the detainees’ cases has already resulted in the release of a number of detainees, subject to certain conditions, who ended their hunger strike. Today I signed release warrants in respect of a further 50 detainees. I would also like to announce that at present there are no children under 16 years of age in detention in terms of the Emergency Regulations. Only 22 sixteen-year-olds and 30 seventeen-year-olds are still in detention. However, release is a judicial process and I am obliged to consider all the relevant information and thereafter sign a warrant of release—a procedure which takes time.
This process will, however, be continued purposefully.
In conclusion I wish to point out that this reasonable action must not be seen as weakness and thereafter be exploited. We will not submit to blackmail and I am pleased to say that all those with whom I have negotiated share this viewpoint [Time expired.]
Mr Speaker, I have listened to the hon the Minister’s reply with much interest and it seems to me so that he needs to have a lot more consultation with the lawyers who are looking after detainees in various prisons throughout South Africa.
I have a communication here from a group of lawyers who are acting on behalf of the majority of the approximately 157 emergency detainees in the Eastern Cape. From what they say it appears that they still know that there are a number of detainees who, having just come off a hunger strike, are more than prepared to go back on that hunger strike if certain of their demands are not met. I will go into that in more detail at a later stage this afternoon.
I want to tell the hon the Minister that he is under a total misapprehension if he thinks that these hunger strikes have been “orchestrated”, as he puts it, from outside …[Interjections.] … in order to correspond with the demands of certain extra-parliamentary organisations. [Interjections.]
Unbelievable! How naive can one be?
Well, I may be naïve but hon members are totally ignorant of the conditions under which these detainees have been held. I wonder how many of them know that over 90 of the emergency detainees at St Albans have been held—some have been released now but as of last week—for nearly 32 months without trial. [Interjections.]
Now, I wonder how naïve it is to question that these people, in total frustration, having tried every method open to them through their legal advisers and through their medical advisers to try to get redress of their obvious grievances, have decided on this extremely dangerous course. I say it is dangerous to themselves because prolonged hunger strikes can lead to physical illness which is irreversible. It can lead to blindness and it can lead to permanent damage the kidneys. Nobody lightly undergoes this risk.
The hon Minister says they are on a hunger strike for a few days and then they come off the hunger strike. There have been hunger strikers who have been on hunger strike for over 21 days before, finally, the hon the Minister—at last, I would say, exercising a grain of common sense—decided that he would see the legal advisers of these people to get further information about their position … [Time expired.]
Mr Speaker, the hon the Minister’s decision to release a considerable number of detainees creates the impression of two possibilities. The first is that the hon the Minister’s advisers in the Police did not inform him timeously and properly that the detainees’ release was acceptable and could already have taken place in view of the legal criteria under which the state of emergency had been announced. The second is that despite advice to the contrary given to him by his Police advisers, the hon the Minister himself ordered the release of the detainees for political considerations which have nothing to do with the legal criteria for their detention.
The hon the Minister’s dilemma is of his own making. An indelible impression was created—it still exists today—that a politically motivated decision was taken. It is simply too much of a coincidence to order people’s release after long, extended periods of detention at this time, and directly after a hunger strike was begun and well-known Black radical leaders and others came to see the hon the Minister.
This action presents the hon the Minister as a person with no political background. It also casts suspicion on the Police programme to monitor detainees. The police really deserve better treatment from their political head. [Interjections.] If the decision, was merely a political decision it was a foolish one, because it has created a precedent which will hold terrible consequences for this hon Minister and for the maintenance of law and order in this country. [Time expired.]
Mr Speaker, I will deal with the hon member for Ermelo immediately in the few minutes I have at my disposal.
The hon member said I had not been briefed or had not followed the advice I had received. The SAP and I work as a team. I listen to what the SAP tells me and then I take the final decision. I had been briefed and we dealt with the matter as a team. If the hon member had read my statements, he would have seen that there was certain information to which the SAP’s investigative officials were not privy. This includes information about a person’s attitude, for example; that is his attitude in respect of the situation in South Africa. The legal representatives and parents were of great help to me in that respect. They also helped me with regard to the people’s working conditions. [Interjections.]
These are matters that I take into account when I decide whether or not someone may be released, because I am holding these people to keep them out of the communities where they cause problems. For that reason I tell the hon member that I did not leave the Police in the lurch and that I co-operate with the Police to see what is in the best interests of the communities from which we have taken these people. We also took the circumstances of the detainees into account, however I do not apologise for that, because I look at all the circumstances and release a person and return him to the community under conditions in terms of which I retain control over him. I do not apologise for that. [Interjections.]
†I should like to conclude by replying to the hon member for Houghton. In addition to what I have already said, I would like to say that people should not abuse their freedom. I have a responsibility towards the community and I will not tolerate their safety being disturbed again. I want to say this loud and clear. [Time expired]
Mr Speaker, I am reacting briefly to the allegation that was made that this hunger strike had been orchestrated from outside.
Whether it was orchestrated or not and whether any attempt to do so was made or not, the hon members in this House who have implied that a person will endanger his own life simply because he is intimidated by some or other lightweight political manipulator from outside have taken leave of their senses. [Interjections.] Any person who makes that kind of suggestion has taken leave of his senses. [Interjections.]
In my opinion one can only respect a person who has the courage, no matter whether it is shortsighted or foolish, to take that drastic step, because it is the only remaining way for him to draw attention to his predicament. It was the only remaining course for them to take for the simple reason that the world had forgotten about them. The Department of Law and Order had forgotten about them. The hon the Minister had forgotten about them. In reality there was nothing else for them to do.
I want to compliment the hon the Minister, however, in contrast with what the CP said. The hon the Minister was humane enough and man enough to acknowledge his mistake by implication, to launch a proper review procedure and in fact to release a number of those people. I respect him for that, because he has exposed himself to considerable political criticism, and I think he deserves a compliment for doing so.
He may have seen in the Cape Times “teleletters” that a woman congratulated him sincerely and, to tell the truth, won a prize by doing so. I want to associate myself with that. It is good for that kind of thing to happen. This hunger strike and the related events are a poor reflection on the system of detention without trial. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]
Mr Speaker, I must say I think that the hon the Minister really has got a nerve. The hon the Minister talks about people not abusing their freedom. I say he is abusing his power. [Interjections.] How dare he keep people for as long as 32 months without trial! There are nine detainees at Diepkloof who have been there for over two years. These people were told way back in January 1988 that Attorneys General were examining their cases to see whether they could lay charges against them. Up to the time of going to press no charges have been laid. On what criteria does the hon the Minister decide that these people must be locked up and kept away from the community as he told the hon member? For how long? For life? The hon the Minister acts merely on the say-so of the security police. The hon the Minister does not test anything and the courts do not test anything. [Time expired.]
Mr Speaker, let me tell the hon member immediately—this is something the hon member does not want to accept—that those people are not in detention because the security police felt like locking them up one morning. They are there because they were involved in certain activities.
Then charge them.
It is easy to say “charge them”, because if we charge them the hon member will accept the decision. [Interjections.] That is the point and it is not necessary to talk about this over and over again.
I want to thank the hon member for Houghton for her involvement; she helped me to resolve this hunger strike. I want to thank the hon member. [Interjections.] That does not detract from the fact that people were detained for certain reasons. The truth is that when we took these people out of the communities, there was greater peace in the communities. [Interjections.] Those are the facts and we can fling many things across the floor of the House, but at the end of the day the fact is that taking these people out of the communities caused the unrest to subside. That is my responsibility, and that is why I say that if we release these people and they go back into the communities, but abuse this freedom, I shall not hesitate to take the same kind of action again. I want to make that very clear.
The hon member for Green Point said this was not orchestrated. It does not matter; I have proof that it was. We received a message from people in that group in one of the prisons: “Take us out of here; we want to eat.” We took them away and they had a good meal with a policemen there. That is why I say intimidation in the prison played an enormous part in this whole attempt. [Time expired.]
Debate concluded.
*Indicates translated version.
General Affairs:
Question standing over from Tuesday, 14 February 1989:
asked the Minister of Law and Order:
- (1) Whether, with reference to his reply to Question No 15, standing over, on 6 October 1987, the investigation into the explosion in Cosatu House on 7 May 1987 has been completed; if not, why not; if so, what (a) were the findings and (b) action has been taken as a result;
- (2) whether there are any suspects in the case; if so, what are their names;
- (3) whether he will disclose the nature of the evidence against these suspects; if not, why not; if so, what is the nature of this evidence in each case;
- (4) whether any charges are to be laid against any of these suspects; if so, what are the relevant details of these charges?
(1) to (4) No, the investigation has not yet been completed.
I refer the hon member to my news media release of 10 January 1989 regarding this matter, a copy of which I table.
Regarding the investigation, I would like to stress that —
- (a) the South African Police regard the matter in a very serious light and for that reason 2 extremely competent and experienced detectives were appointed to conduct the investigation;
- (b) all possible clues are followed up and researched, and all information supplied by any person will be welcomed;
- (c) the information that has been obtained up until now, does indicate certain possibilities and probabilities — but is naturally by no means evidence tested by a court; and
- (d) the investigation is continuing unabated and I herewith once again make an earnest appeal to anybody who has at his disposal information in this regard, to come to the fore and assist us to solve the case.
New Questions:
asked the Minister of Defence:
Whether he visited Mauritius in 1988; if so, (a) what was the purpose of the visit, (b) at whose invitation did he undertake it, (c) who accompanied him, (d) whose aircraft was used to and from Mauritius and (e) who bore the cost of the visit in each case?
The hon member is referred to my standpoint in Parliament on 7 February 1989. Concerning this question and possible related matters, I wish to mention that I am going to submit evidence to the Harms Commission at a mutually convenient time.
asked the Minister of Defence:
Whether he has met with a certain person, whose name has been furnished to the South African Defence Force for the purpose of his reply, since 10 November 1988; if so, (a) on how many occasions and (b)(i) where, and (ii) for what purpose, in each case?
The hon member is referred to my reply to Question 1 of today.
asked the Minister of Transport Affairs:†
(a) How many railway carriages for the exclusive use of dignitaries are at present kept by the South African Transport Services, (b) what is the total annual cost of maintaining these carriages and (c) in respect of what date is this information furnished?
- (a) Eight.
- (b) R24 100.
- (c) 1 February 1988 to 31 January 1989.
Mr Speaker, arising from the hon the Deputy Minister’s reply, may I ask him whether the Government intends reducing the number of coaches and if not, what exactly is the plan with these coaches that are specifically reserved for this purpose?
Mr Speaker, there are eight of these coaches that are used for judges, the State President and Ministers. At present there is no intention to put the coaches to any other use.
Mr Speaker, further arising from the reply of the hon the Deputy Minister, I should like to ask for what purposes coaches are specifically reserved for the use of judges. Why are the ordinary railway coaches with the necessary facilities not used?
Mr Speaker, the hon member will know that it is a very old custom in South Africa to make the coaches available to judges. There are three such coaches — one for the western part of the country, one for the eastern part and a spare coach in case something goes wrong with the other two. [Interjections.]
asked the Minister of Law and Order:
- (1) Whether a certain detainee, whose name has been furnished to the South African Police for the purpose of the Minister’s reply, was killed in Khayelitsha Township on or about 23 January 1989; if so, (a) on what date was (i) this person detained by the Police and (ii) his wife-to-be notified of his detention or arrest and (b) what are the circumstances surrounding his death;
- (2) whether, while visiting the KTC squatter camp and Khayelitsha Township in the company of members of the Police on or about 23 January 1989, any death threats were directed at this person; if so, (a) by whom and (b) what was the purport of these threats?
- (1) Yes
- (a)
- (i) 16 January 1989 on five charges of murder.
- (ii) The detainee did not request the Police to inform his wife-to-be of his arrest.
- (b) The death of the detainee is being investigated and is the subject of a judicial process which I do not want to anticipate at this stage.
- (a)
- (2) No
- (a) and (b) Fall away.
Mr Speaker, arising from the reply of the hon the Minister, I should like to ask him whether the late Dex Dukashe said, when the police were with him, in the presence of people in KTC including the woman he would have married, that those policeman had threatened to shoot him that day. Has this aspect been investigated?
Mr Speaker, obviously I do not have that detailed information available now. I ask the member to table the question and I will then answer him.
asked the Minister of Law and Order:†
- (1) Whether a certain member of the dog unit of the South African Police in Kimberley, whose name has been furnished to the Police for the purpose of the Minister’s reply, has beem charged as a result of certain events in Kakamas on or about 13 February 1988; if so, (a) what was the nature of the charges against him, (b) with what result and (c) what is the name of this member;
- (2) whether the Police has taken or is considering disciplinary and/or other steps against this member; if not, why not; if so, what steps?
- (1) Yes
- (a) He stood trial on two charges of murder and thirteen charges of attempted murder.
- (b) He was acquitted on all the charges.
- (c) Sergeant W J Byeleveldt.
- (2) No. Because he purchased his discharge before any further steps could be considered.
asked the Minister of Defence:†
- (1) Whether a group of members of Parliament visited Mozambique round about the middle of December 1988; if so, (a) which parties did they represent, (b) what was the purpose of the visit, (c) at whose invitation did the visit take place and (d) who paid for the visit;
- (2) whether the South African Defence Force made transport available to this group?
(1) and (2) Yes. A SA Air Force aircraft was supplied to a group of the Governing Party, consisting of six members of Parliament and four members of the Presidents’ Council, to visit Mozambique and to conduct, on a confidential basis, discussions between the Governing Parties on the political, military and economical situation there. The cost was carried by the Mozambicans and the members of the visiting group.
asked the Minister of Education and Development Aid:
- (1) Whether any qualified teachers employed in schools for Blacks in the Cape Peninsula were retrenched in 1988; if so, (a) how many, (b) why in each case, (c) what subjects were they qualified to teach and (d) at which schools were they teaching when they were retrenched;
- (2) whether any qualified teachers employed on a temporary basis at such schools in 1988 were not re-employed when they re-applied for their posts; if so, what are the relevant details?
- (1) No
- (a), (b), (c) and (d) fall away.
- (2) Yes
Eight (8) teachers who were appointed in a temporary capacity for the period 1 January 1988 to 31 December 1988 at the Intshukumo Comprehensive School, Guguletu, and the Malizo Secondary School, Khayelitsha, respectively, were not re-appointed for 1989. Due to the fact that the appointments of the teachers concerned, would expire on 31 December 1988, the vacant posts were advertised by the management bodies of the schools. All the applications received for the posts, including those of the eight teachers mentioned, were considered on merit by the management bodies taking into account their qualifications, previous teaching experience and their service records. The applications of the eight teachers concerned were not successful.
asked the Minister of National Health and Population Development:
Whether the manufacture and/or importation of products containing hydroquinone is to be stopped; if so, when; if not, what steps are to be taken to warn the public against the harmful effects of this product?
Yes, 1 January 1991
asked the Minister of National Health and Population Development:
- (1) Whether immunisation against measles is to be made compulsory; if not, why not; if so, when;
- (2) whether he will make a statement on the matter?
- (1) No, the World Health Organisation has no fixed ruling regarding compulsory immunisation. The enforcement of compulsory immunisation may be counter-productive and would virtually the unattainable. Persuasion is therefore better than compulsion;
- (2) no.
asked the Minister of National Education:
- (1) Whether he has determined a subsidy formula for the financing of South African executive education departments; if not, why not; if so, (a) what is this formula and (b) when was it determined;
- (2) whether provision has been made for the a factor to be greater or less than one in the case of any education department; if so, (a) what provision, and (b) why, in each case;
- (3) whether he has determined a timetable for the progress of the a factor for all education departments ultimately to reach one; if not, why not; if so, what is this timetable?
- (1) No. Although these financing formulae have already been drafted, no general policy has been tabled yet under section 2(1)(a) of the National Policy for General Education Affairs Act, 1984 (Act No. 76 of 1984), as certain interested parties still have to be consulted. The formulae together with a strategy for their implementation will be announced as soon as general policy has been determined.
- (2) Lapses.
- (3) Lapses.
Mr Speaker, arising from the reply given by the hon the Minister, could he please give the House an indication of whether his reply to this question has changed over the three years I have asked it, and if it has not changed during these three years, how long he expects those who have to be consulted need to be consulted on this matter?
Mr Speaker, I firstly refer the hon member to his supplementary question and my reply thereto as recorded in Hansard, Questions and Replies, Column 2151, on Tuesday, 23 August 1988. He is well aware that I took the matter further in that reply than I had done in previous replies. Today I can again take the matter further. I can now tell the hon member that I have the consent of the hon the Minister of Finance. I have also succeeded in obtaining the consent of the SA Council for Education. Furthermore I have taken the matter further by giving certain information and background material to the organised teaching profession.
At the moment the problem is that because of economic uncertainties greater clarity is needed with regard to global expenditure on education over the next number of years. Greater clarity is also needed in relation to what can be accomplished in that regard.
†I am negotiating with the State President’s Committee on National Priorities, as well as with the hon the Minister of Finance.
Mr Speaker, further arising from the reply given by the hon the Minister, could he give us a clear indication in connection with when he anticipates the formula will be announced, and secondly, whether the formula makes provision for diffential payments of amounts to the different population groups?
Mr Speaker, in the first instance, the hon member for Pinetown has asked me that same question in the form of a written question. Only today I signed the reply to it. He will therefore receive his reply to it.
Secondly, I cannot commit myself to a specific date because the uncertainties to which I have referred, exist. What the hon member does know, but he does not appear to take into account is that this formula is already being applied as a framework, and that we are gaining valuable experience by this application. The existence of the formula as a framework, although it has not yet been announced as official policy, therefore already arranges the allocation of funds to education to such an extent that I can say with confidence that we are making sure, in a very scientific way, and within the framework resulting from the formula, of fairness to all population groups according to the State’s capabilities at a particular time.
Mr Speaker, further arising from the hon the Minister’s reply, I understood, if I heard correctly, that economic uncertainties exist and that in the light of those uncertainties he could not give a final reply. Now I should like to ask the hon the Minister whether he thinks that he will ever be able to give the House a reply during his lifetime if he has to meet this requirement.
Yes, Mr Speaker, because this Government has specific economic aims, we are achieving a greater degree of certainty by restructuring the economy, which will result in better planning. Just as I have confidence in the country’s future, I am confident that our education spending will continue to be reasonable and carried out on a set basis in the future. [Interjections.]
asked the Minister of Education and Development Aid:
- (1) Whether he or his Department is responsible for the provision of education facilities for Black persons residing in de facto open settlement areas; if not, which department is responsible; if so, (a) what is his policy regarding the provision of such facilities and (b) what facilities have been provided;
- (2) whether he will make a statement on the matter?
- (1) Yes, the Department of Education and training is responsible for the provision of education facilities for Blacks in all areas of the RSA except for TBVC countries and Self-Governing Territories.
(a) and (b) education facilities for Black persons will be determined according to need. - (2) No.
Mr Speaker, arising from the reply of the hon the Deputy Minister, can he give us an indication as to whether his department has investigated the provision of schooling facilities for Black pupils in the Hillbrow area?
Mr Speaker, to the best of my knowledge we have not yet identified this need and as I have said in the reply, if that need is brought to our attention, naturally we shall pay attention to it.
Mr Speaker, further arising out of the hon the Deputy Minister’s reply, I am asking whether his Department intends to establish schooling facilities for Blacks in legally established free settlement areas.
Mr Speaker, apparently the hon member does not listen when I am replying to questions! In my reply I clearly said that if a need for Black schooling facilities were to arise in free settlement areas I should supply such facilities.
Mr Speaker, further arising from the reply of the hon the Deputy Minister I would like to know if he could give us an indication as to whether his department consults with the department of the hon the Minister of Education and Culture of the House of Assembly concerning the number of Black persons who are applying to get into White schools in the Hillbrow area?
Mr Speaker, I think that reply is rather far removed from the question originally put, and I should appreciate it if the hon Member would table that question.
Mr Speaker, further arising out of the hon the Deputy Minister’s earlier reply, he indicated that if the demand for Black education in the Hillbrow area was drawn to his attention, it would receive his attention. Is he now suggesting that he is not aware of the conditions which are prevailing in Hillbrow and of the people and children who are living in Hillbrow? Is the hon the Deputy Minister not aware of that?
Mr Speaker, what I am saying is that the need that could arise in this area has not yet been brought to my attention. The fact is that there are many other schooling facilities at present. There are many private schools which are attended by many of these Black pupils. There are also other schools in the Hillbrow area. All I am saying is that the need has not yet been brought to my attention and I want to invite the hon Member to come and discuss the problem with me if he is aware of it. My door is wide open to him and I am prepared to discuss the problem with him. [Interjections.]
Order! Time for oral questions on general affairs has now expired.
Business interrupted in accordance with Rule 180C (3) of the Standing Rules of Parliament.
asked the Minister of Justice:
- (1) (a) What is the policy of his Department regarding the carrying of arms in court and (b) what instructions has he issued in this regard;
- (2) whether he took any action in respect of any incidents of this nature during the latest specified period of 12 months for which information is available; if so, what were the circumstances surrounding each such incident?
- (1) The question is related to various aspects of the Department’s security administration, namely the carrying of fire-arms in court by:
- (a) personnel of the Department;
- (b) members of the security services (Police, Defence Force, Prisons Service and traffic departments); and
- (c) the public.
I consider it, in the interests of public safety, as being undesirable to discuss matters of this nature in public, but am prepared to discuss it privately with the Honourable Member.
- (2) One incident has come to my attention. The official concerned, who holds a licence in terms of the Arms and Ammunition Act, 1969 to carry a fire-arm for her own protection, occasionally had the firearm in her possession in court, due to the lack of proper facilities for the safekeeping of the fire-arm during court proceedings. The official was instructed to cease this practice.
asked the Minister of Justice:
- (1) Whether a certain person, whose name has been furnished to the Minister’s Department for the purpose of his reply, is permitted to receive visitors at present; if not, why not; if so, (a) subject to what conditions or provisions and (b) what is the name of the person concerned;
- (2) whether this person is permitted to interact freely with other prisoners; if not, why not; if so, subject to what conditions or provisions;
- (3) whether this person is permitted to interact with any prison officials; if so, (a) with which officials and (b) subject to what conditions or provisions?
- (1) Yes.
- (a) As was mentioned by me in a press statement on 24 November 1988, it was decided to transfer this person to suitable, comfortable and secure living accommodation, where he will inter alia be able to receive members of his family more freely and on a continual basis and which in fact has happened.
The frequency and duration of visits by his family are not restricted in any way.
All other visits or requests for visits to and/or interviews with this person, are dealt with in the normal way. - (b) The same as furnished by the Honourable Member.
- (a) As was mentioned by me in a press statement on 24 November 1988, it was decided to transfer this person to suitable, comfortable and secure living accommodation, where he will inter alia be able to receive members of his family more freely and on a continual basis and which in fact has happened.
- (2) Yes.
Arising from this circumstances he does not have immediate contact with other inmates. Visits by other prisoners are considered and approved so as to meet the normal needs of personal contact. - (3) Yes.
(a) and (b) The officers and members of the South African Prisons Service in the normal course of their duties.
asked the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning:
- (1) Whether a joint committee of representatives of the South African Government and the KwaZulu Government has been established; if so, (a) (i) for what purpose and (ii) when was it established, (b) who are the members of the committee and (c) on what dates has it met;
- (2) whether the report on the findings and recommendations of this committee will bepublished; if not, why not; if so, when?
- (1) yes.
- (a)
- (i) To identify and address obstacles impeding the process of negotiations, as well as to formulate principles on which there is common ground.
- (ii) It was decided on 9 January 1989 to appoint the Committee.
- (b) Representatives of the South African Government
- (a)
Mr J C Botha |
(Minister of Home Affairs and of Communication) |
Mr R P Meyer |
(Deputy Minister of Constitutional development and Planning) |
Dr I Rautenbach |
(Professor: Rand Afrikaans University) |
Mr S S van der Merwe |
(Constitutional Advisor) |
Representatives of KwaZulu Government |
|
Dr O D Dhlomo |
(Minister of Education and Culture of KwaZulu) |
Dr Mdladlose |
(Minister of Health) |
Mr R I Arenstein |
(Ex-attorney) |
Mr S J Maphalala |
(Lecturer: University of Zululand) |
- (c) The 2nd March 1989 has been fixed as the date of the first meeting.
- (2) The committee reports to the respective governments. No decision has been taken about the possible publication of any report.
asked the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning:
When does the Government intend convening the National Council?
The Honourable Member is presumably referring to the council provided for in the Renumeration of Constitional Development Act, 1988. The Government believes that evolutionary constitutional progress can best be achieved through a process of negotiation. This is an ongoing process taking place on different levels and in various forums. The council will be constituted when the appropriate moment in the process arrives. When this moment will be, it itself a subject of discussion in the procress. I am hoping for and working for this moment to be sooner rather than later. In this regard I would like to ask for the support of all Honourable Members also believing in negotiations.
asked the Minister of Law and Order:
- (1) Whether he has received any complaints regarding a certain person, whose name has been furnished to the South African Police forthe purpose of the Minister’s reply; if so, (a) what is the name of this person and (b) what was the (i) nature of an (ii) response to each such complaint;
- (2) whether he is contemplating any action against this person; if not, why not; if so, what action?
Since 1985, the South African Police have investigated a number of charges against Christopher Zuma, inter alia two charges of murder, three charges of public violence, one charge of theft and one charge in terms of the Arms and Ammunition Act, 1969 (Act 75 of 1969).
The Attorney-General declined to prosecute in respect of the two charges of murder, while the three charges of public violence were withdrawn by the Public Prosecutor due to insufficient evidence. However, Zuma was convicted and sentenced on the charge of theft and the charge in terms of the Arms and Ammunition Act, 1969 (Act 75 of 1969).
Mr Radley Keys, Regional Director of the PFP in Natal and member of that party’s unrest monitoring group, made allegations in two Natal newspapers, namely the Daily News and The Natal Witness, that the unrest monitoring group had at its disposal evidence that Zuma had supposedly conducted a campaign of terror in the black townships around Pietermaritzburg. Amongst other things he had allegedly been responsible for several acts of violence.
The Divisional Criminal Investigation Officer for the police division of Natal, investigated these allegations and conducted an interview with Mr Keys, who undertook to submit evidence to him on 9 February 1989 to substantiate the allegations. On 9 February 1989 Mr Keys claimed that the allegations were based on rumours that were circulating in the black townships. He could not furnish the names of eye-witnesses and informers, or affidavits which could substantiate the allegations. On the contrary, up until now no evidence to substantiate the allegations could be produced.
It is clear that these allegations, which are based on the current total lack of any evidence, are nothing but malicious rumour mongering. As was so often the case in the past, it is the object of certain antagonists to discredit the South African Police with these allegations. However, I wish to point out to the honourable member that the South African Police perform their functions with a sense of duty and pride and the remarkable achievements which have been attained are proof thereof.
Because these allegations could by no means be substantiated, on 17 February 1989 the Public Relations Division of the South African Police addressed a letter to the News Editors of both the newspapers concerned and in terms of paragraph 2.5 of the South African Media Council’s Code of Conduct urged them to publish correcting reports. The News Editors of both newspapers intimated that they would publish the correcting reports as soon as possible.
asked the Minister of Justice:
- (1) Whether a certain person, whose name has been furnished to the Minister’s Department for the purpose of his reply, has been charged in court with any offences; if so, (a) (i) with what offences and (ii) on what grounds and (b) what is the (i) name and (ii) age of this person;
- (2) whether this person is to appear in court on any further charges; if so, (a) on what charges and (b) when?
(1) and (2) The Attorney-General of Natal was approached and all available information including copies of news clippings, was furnished to him but he has no knowledge of such a case. More than 2 million criminal cases are registered annually and it is not possible to trace a case on a given name only.
However, I have noticed in the press that the PFP have their own monitoring group on the “reign of terror in townships around Pietermaritzburg”. (Daily News: Monday 6 February 1989.) I consider that the PFP and particularly the monitoring group are in duty bound to submit to me the evidence which they have at their disposal so that I may, through the Attorney-General of Natal, endeavour to have the person in question traced and/or exposed, that is if such a person does exist.
asked the Minister of Defence:
Whether, since his reply to Question No 620 on 22 March 1988, a further study has been made of the cost of establishing a professional standing defence force to replace the present system of military conscription; if not, why not; if so, (a) by whom, (b) when and (c) what were the (i) findings and (ii) recommendations of the study?
No, because the manning philosophy of the SA Defence Force has not changed since the 1984/85 estimate. There has also been since the previous estimate, an increase in the direct personnel expenditure (salaries and allowances), which will increase the difference in cost between the existing system and a professional standing defence force.
asked the Minister of Justice:
- (1) Whether he has received any appeals for clemency in respect of the death sentence imposed on a certain person, whose name has been furnished to the Minister’s Department for the purpose of his reply; if so, what is the name of the person concerned;
- (2) whether clemency in this case has been considered; if so, with what result; if not, why not?
- (1) Yes. Robert John McBride.
- (2) No, not at this stage. His legal representative has been given the opportunity to have neurological tests done on him.
asked the Minister of Environment Affairs:
- (1) Whether he has taken or intends taking steps to draft legislation to increase the penalties for poaching or ’trading in rhinoceros horn and ivory; if so, (a) what increased penalties are envisaged and (b) when is it anticipated that such legislation will be introduced; if not, why not;
- (2) whether similar measures are contemplated in respect of the protection of other endangered species; if so, what measures; if not, why not?
- (1) The Department of Environment Affairs is presently engaged in an in depth investigation into the possiblility of increasing the existing penalties in terms of the National Parks Act, 1976 (Act 57 of 1976) for the illegal trade in rhinoceros horn. The investigation, however, also comprises the increasing of such penalties on a uniform basis. The respective provincial administrations are presently being consulted in this respect. The possibility to increase penalties for poaching and the illegal trade in ivory in terms of the National Parks Act, 1976, will also receive attention.
- (a) The envisaged penalties must still be finalised in consultation with the aforementioned authorities.
- (b) As soon as agreement is reached on uniform penalties.
- (2) Similar measures are not contemplated in respect of other endangered species seeing that existing measures are at present regarded as being sufficient.
asked the Minister of Environment Affairs:
- (1) Whether any action has been taken by his Department to monitor ozone levels in the Republic; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
- (2) whether legislation to control or restrict the use of chlorofluorohydrocarbons is contemplated; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
- (3) whether he will make a statement on the matter?
- (1) No. Funds have not yet been available for such monitoring.
- (2) No. As far as legislation in this regard is concerned, the question should be directed to the Minister for National Health and Population Development.
- (3) No.
asked the Minister of Finance:
- (1) Whether, in view of the finding of the Harms Commission, he will reconsider his reply to Question No 671 on 23 March 1988; if so,
- (2) whether he will now furnish an amended reply to that question?
- (1) Yes.
- (2) Yes.
Information was received by the Commissioner for Customs and Excise which indicated that false particulars had been presented at the time of importation of the vehicle and that it did not qualify for a rebate of duty. After investigation of the matter the vehicle was traced by Customs and Excise and seized in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964. The vehicle is presently detained in the State Warehouse. The payment of the duty due as well as an amount in lieu of mitigation of seizure is presently the subject of correspondence with Mr Palazzolo’s legal representatives.
asked the Minister of Home Affairs:
(a) How many Black persons were unemployed as at the date of the latest current population survey and (b) what is the date of this survey?
- (a) 820 000.
- (b) October 1988.
asked the Minister of Law and Order:
How many persons were detained in terms of section 29 of the Internal Security Act, No 74 of 1982, (a) during the period 9 February 1988 up to the latest specified date for which information is available and (b) in 1988?
- (a) 316 persons up until 15 February 1989.
- (b) 315 persons.
asked the Minister of Communications:
What was the total number of oustanding telephone applications in areas reserved for (a) White and (b) Black occupation in the Greater Cape Town areas as at the latest specified date for which information is available?
- (a) 2 309; and
- (b) 3 730,
as at 1 October 1988.
asked the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning:
- (1) Whether a committee known as the Western Cape Region Co-ordinating Committee on Squatting has been formed; if so, (a) who are the members of the committee, (b) on what dates has it met and (c) to whom does it report;
- (2) whether this committee has made any recommendations; if so, what recommendations;
- (3) Whether the minutes of this committee are available to members of the public; if not, why not; if so, where may they be obtained?
This matter vests in the Administrator of the Cape Province and he furnished the following information:.
- (1) Yes
- (a) Regional representative: Office for Community Services: Western Cape (CCA) as chairman. Representatives of the three own affairs departments and where circumstances necessitate — members of the relevant local authorities.
- (b) 11/5/87; 10/6/87; 10/8/87; 12/10/87; 30/11/87; 25/1/88; 21/3/88; 3/5/88; 28/7/88; 27/9/88 and 21/11/88.
- (c) Chief director: land development coordination: Branch Community Services, CPA
- (2) Yes.
Departmental committee and recommendations not for public knowledge. - (3) No.
Departmental Committee.
asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs:
- (1) Whether South Africa has received any guarantees that the promised Cuban withdrawal will be carried out in its entirety; if not, why not; if so, what guarantees;
- (2) Whether any arrangements have been made for preventing already withdrawn Cuban troops from being relocated in other African countries; if not, why not; if so, what arrangements;
- (3) whether there is any South African representation on the monitoring force that will oversee the withdrawal of Cuban troops from Angola and their eventual return to Cuba; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
- (1) There is no such thing as guarantees in international relations and agreements. In other words: there is no such thing as a guarantee of a guarantee at the international level. There are only undertakings and interests. Several agreements which have been concluded established undertakings inter alia also an undertaking by Angola and Cuba to withdraw all Cuban troops from Angola according to a timetable. At the same time internationally accepted mechanisms were established to monitor the withdrawal. Structures were also created to handle complaints.
In 1978 it was for various reasons regarded as impossible to negotiate Cuban troop withdrawal from Angola. That 10 years later we indeed succeeded therein can be regarded as one of the greatest achievements which this country has ever attained on the diplomatic level, thanks to the Government’s determination, knowledge of international tendencies, new initiatives in Africa, correct timing and the strong team spirit and close co-operation which exist between the Department of Foreign Affairs, the South African Defence Force, the National Intelligence Service and the South African Police. - (2) Yes. The South African Government has clearly stated during the negotiations and also publicly that it will not tolerate the redeployment of Cuban troops in the southern African region. President Reagan said in a public statement during his term of office that withdrawal of the Cubans means withdrawal from Africa.
- (3) No. The monitoring of Cuban troop withdrawal has been entrusted to the United Nations Verification Mission (UN-A VEM) who will have to complete its task to the satisfaction of the Secretary-General of the United Nations. Additional structures were, however, established to look after the interests of all the parties. What is of special importance is that the Government succeeded in establishing means which are far more effective in detecting cheating that would be the case if South Africa were represented on the monitoring force.
General Affairs:
asked the Minister of National Health and Population Development:
- (1) Whether, since 1 October 1985, any civil pensioners have been erroneously overpaid as a result of incorrect information on the pensions data base; if so, (a) how many pensioners were involved, (b) what was the total amount overpaid, (c) in respect of what date is this information furnished and (d) what steps are being taken to prevent such overpayments from occurring in the future;
- (2) whether the amount overpaid will be recovered from the pensioners concerned; if not, how will it be recovered; if so, what recourse is there for pensioners who are unable to make repayments;
- (3) whether such outstanding amounts may be repaid over a period of time; if not, (a) why not and (b) how will they be recovered; if so,
- (4) whether such an outstanding amount will be (a) subject to interest and (b) claimed against the estate in the event of the decease of the pensioner concerned;
- (5) whether his Department has taken or will take any steps in connection with the recovery of taxation overpayments resulting from these erroneous overpayments to pensioners; if not, why not; if so, (a) what steps and (b) when?
- (1) Yes,
- (a) the information is not readily available as all individual cases will have to be checked,
- (b) falls away,
- (c) falls away,
- (d) an additional computer program has been installed whereby incomplete data is immediately identified with the processing of retirement documentation;
- (2) yes, if the pensioner is not in a position to repay the overpayment, the amount is recovered in reasonable instalments from the monthly pension payable;
- (3) yes,
- (a) falls away,
- (b) see paragraph 2,
- (4)
- (a) no,
- (b) yes;
- (5) no, tax deductions are paid over to the Department of Inland Revenue on a monthly basis. The pensioner himself must, therefore, arrange with his local Receiver of Revenue in order to get a rebate in respect of income tax,
- (a) falls away,
- (b) falls away.
asked the Minister of Transport Affairs:†
How many (a) White and (b) non-White employees of the South African Transport Services (i) retired from service before completing 10 years’ pensionable service, as a result of reaching the age limit, and (ii) were retired on account of ill-health before completing 15 years’ pensionable service, in 1987 and 1988, respectively?
1987 |
1988 |
||
(a) |
(i) |
Nil |
1 |
(b) |
(i) |
25 |
33 |
- (a) and (b) (ii) Particulars are not readily available and it will take much time and expense to gather such information.
asked the Minister of National Health and Population Development:
- (1) Whether all claims for damages and losses incurred in the floods in Natal and the Orange Free State in (a) 1987 and (b) 1988 have been settled; if not, (i) why not and (ii)(aa) how many remain to be settled and (bb) in respect of what date is this information furnished;
- (2) as at the latest specified date for which information is available, (a) what total sum (i) had been paid out, and (ii) had been collected from public donations, in the case of each of these floods, (b) what total sum had been collected through the sale of postal stamps in each case and (c) what total number of claims had been received in each case?
- (1)
- (a) No,
- (b) no,
- (i) many applications were incomplete and received after the closing date,
- (ii)
- (aa) 417
- (bb) 31/1/1989;
- (2)
- (a)
- (i) R70 057 014,00. This amount does not include R14 283 358,00 recently approved by the KwaZulu Committee,
- (ii) R26 929 707,00. Separate accounts were not kept in respect of the Orange Free State and Natal. All donations were paid into the Disaster Relief Fund,
- (b) R1 638 370,00 in respect of both disasters,
- (c) 176 738 in respect of Natal and 3 900 in respect of Orange Free State and Northern Cape.
- (a)
asked the Minister of Environment Affairs:
Yes, as in my reply to Question 1286 on 22 August 1988, I am still willing to supply the statistics to the Honourable member in private. As indicated in my previous reply I do not deem it in the national interest to publicly divulge export statistics in respect of fish and other marine products.
asked the Minister of Economic Affairs and Technology:
How many holes were drilled by Soekor off the coast between (a) Cape Town and the Orange River Mouth, (b) Cape Town and Storms River Mouth, (c) Storms River Mouth and Port Elizabeth and (d) Port Elizabeth and the Mozambique border during the latest specified period of 10 years for which figures are available?
PERIOD: 1 January 1979 to 31 December 1988:
- (a) 22.
- (b) 100.
- (c) 10.
- (d) 12.
Own Affairs:
asked the Minister of Education and Culture:
Whether any English-medium private primary or high schools falling under his Department have admitted pupils who are not White; if so, how many of these schools (a) did and (b) did not admit such pupils in 1989?
Yes. The figures for 1989 are not available at this stage.
The sign * indicates a translation. The sign †, used subsequently in the same interpellation, indicates the original language.
Own Affairs:
Mr R M Burrows asked the Minister of Education and Culture:
Mr Speaker, with reference to the first aspect, namely whether I intend to make more funds available to schools, I wish to state that my department does everything in its power in order to place the maximum amount of money at the disposal of schools. We take into account the prevailing priorities, the total allocation of funds and the accountable and responsible appropriation of such funds. It is my aim, with the full cooperation of the Ministers’ Council and the Committee of Ministers of Education, to ensure that the funds … [Interjections.]
Order!
… that are necessary in order to provide education of the required standard, are available.
Secondly, regarding the possible introduction of compulsory tuition fees, I wish to say that my department is continuously researching other means of supplementing funds for White education. This is done against the background of the economic realities and the other priorities of the country as a whole. My department, however, takes great care to ensure that the standards of its institutions are at all times maintained and, if possible, raised.
With these facts in mind we are investigating various means of, firstly, generating additional funds and, secondly, reducing expenditure by the State. Aspects which are being investigated under the first category include compulsory tuition fees and levies by the Ministers’ Council. Under the second category we are investigating the economic management of school hostels and self-supporting transport schemes for pupils. Much research has already been done regarding compulsory tuition fees, resulting in a number of models. No model will be introduced before consultation with the Provincial Education Councils has taken place or without the agreement of the hon the Minister of the Budget and Works.
One such model envisages that, after I have determined the maximum amount to be paid for pupils at the different levels of schooling, all parents who are in any way capable of doing so would make at least some contribution every year. I wish to give the assurance that no child will in any way be penalised on account of the financial position of his parents. A sliding scale, taking into account the number of schoolgoing children in the family and their gross income, will be used to determine the extent of such contributions. According to this model, the school itself would appear to be the most suitable point of collection and bookkeeping. The management council of the school will have a supervisory role and the local school board will be responsible for collecting outstanding tuition fees. Financial control could be exercised through audited statements and administrative inspections.
Personally I am in favour of the principle that, should the system be approved, the funds generated will be used to the advantage of a specific area. [Time expired.]
Mr Speaker, the hon the Minister has given us a very vague and general reply, much along the lines of the information he has given this House in ministerial statements in previous years. The hon the Minister will, however, be aware that there has been considerable controversy in the early part of this year concerning the collection of fees. He is aware, I have no doubt, of the research that was undertaken by the Natal Education Council concerning the fact that his department in their monetary allocation to schools, with the exclusion of teachers’ salaries, in no case pays more than 40% of the money required to keep those schools running. Let us exclude teachers’ salaries. In no case does his department pay more than 40% of the money required to keep those schools running.
The means the schools have of obtaining funds are twofold. They can either introduce school fees which they levy on the parents voluntarily or they can have trust funds. We are aware from the amounts that are set that we are talking about considerable sums of money, such as school fees in the region of R300 a year and another R300 for trust funds. One can take a school like Beechwood where they pay R630 a year or Bryanston where the school fees are R690 a year. These are very considerable sums of money that have to be collected voluntarily.
The problem is that between 60% and 90% of parents are paying but if only 60% pay, it means that one family is being supported by two other families in the school. The school’s parent community is responsible for raising the funds that are not there. What happens then? There is viciousness between parents and there is discrimination against children. The hon the Minister will be aware of that. He will have seen the press reports about children having to wear badges, children being told they have to write out notes or children not being supplied with certain books.
The financing gap is increasing. We can judge this from Directors of Education statements. The amount of money that the department is allocating to schools every year is not keeping pace with inflation.
This simply means that the schools have to be provided with some means of collecting money whether it is to be compulsory tuition fees or not.
This hon Minister has to ensure that education in his department is not going backwards. He has mentioned the fact that he wishes to maintain standards and advance those standards but that is the very problem that we are sitting with at the moment.
Where parent organisations, for example, can say that teaching, administration and building maintenance between 100% and 200% is subsidised by voluntary contributions … [Time expired.]
Mr Speaker, it is clear from the reply the hon the Minister has given to this question this afternoon that compulsory tuition fees for White scholars in South Africa will, in fact, be imposed. That is the conclusion I make, if I heard him correctly.
The CP would like to request the hon the Minister this afternoon to abandon this specific prospect of obtaining additional funds for White education, for two reasons. Firstly, it is true to say that the Whites in South Africa are being taxed far too heavily. It is a fact that the White taxpayer paid more than 90% of the total personal income tax paid to the Treasury last year. Whether the Government wants to know this or not, and whether or not it wishes to acknowledge this fact, our people are simply no longer able to bear the burden of even more additional taxation, because that is what compulsory tuition fees would be in this instance. I receive many letters from parents throughout South Africa who complain that at the moment they are no longer even able to afford the voluntary school fees. How, then, will they be able to afford compulsory tuition fees?
Secondly, we wish to lodge a strong objection to the fact that at the moment, the law provides that only Whites may have to pay these compulsory tuition fees.
In reply to a question last year the hon the Minister of Education and Development Aid confirmed that such tuition fees were not even being considered for Black scholars. Likewise, no provision is being made for this in the House of Representatives and the House of Delegates.
The Whites in South Africa cannot bear the largest tax burden and by so doing subsidise, inter alia, Coloured, Black and Indian education, and at the same time be taxed even further with regard to their own education. [Time expired.]
Mr Speaker, first and foremost I want to reply to the hon member for Pinetown. I want to say at once that if it is true—I am not casting doubt on the hon member’s statement— that there are children who are being unfairly treated due to the fact that their parents are unable to pay school fees, then it is completely and utterly wrong, it is unfair, and it is uneducational. The child may not suffer due to the fact that his parents are unable to pay. I want to state categorically here that if there are school principals or teachers who are doing this, I think it is scandalous behaviour; it ought not to take place.
Secondly, I want to tell the hon member that the fact of the matter is that there is not enough money. I told the hon member at the beginning of my reply that I was doing everything possible within my power to obtain money to supplement the availability of funds for White education, just as any other education department would like to do in the interests of its own children. We need to bear in mind that one may also create additional sources within those funds that are available, on the one hand by effecting a saving with regard to rationalisation and the more effective utilisation of funds, and on the other hand by appealing to parents to make a contribution. Unfortunately I do not have time to reply fully to the hon member’s question. Permit me to come back to the hon member for Brits.
The hon member requested that there should not be a compulsory school levy. He said once again that we should continue to spend more and more funds, but he never says where the money should come from. On the one hand the hon member says that there should not be a tax increase, and on the other hand he says that I should take more money to give to the schools. [Time expired.]
Mr Speaker, I must begin by saying that I obviously support fully what my colleague the hon member for Pinetown has already said.
We are not surprised!
I am quite sure the hon member is not surprised.
Naturally the hon the Minister made much of the fact that a number of investigations are being conducted into how education is going to be financed, but I believe that this should have been done a long time ago. I do not think the hon the Minister quite realises how absolutely critical this whole business of the funding of schools is. I would like to remind him that less than two years ago I was still headmaster of a prominent boys’ high school, and the situation there was absolutely critical.
As the hon member for Pinetown said, schools receive less than 40% of their funding in the form of monetary allocations from the Government. They have to rely tremendously on the money that they can make by fundraising and from the voluntary levy. The trouble is that unless the Government is prepared to understand that they have to make parents aware of the fact that they are responsible for their children’s education, if they themselves are not able to finance education, the situation is going to become even more critical.
The whole problem arises from the fact that the Government is using delaying tactics with regard to the compulsory levy.
That is nonsense and you know it.
You have been talking about it for five years!
I honestly mean that.
When I was involved in the Natal Teachers’ Society and when I was headmaster of a school, we were told time and time again that in actual fact the Government was looking very carefully at this whole business of the compulsory levy, but five years later we are still waiting for a reply. Unless the Government comes clean and tells us exactly what its attitude is to this and when it is going to be introduced … [Time expired.]
Mr Speaker, I would like to take up the last point made by the hon member for Durban North. I believe that the Government is evading its responsibilities in this regard and attempting to shift the onus for unpopular decisions onto schools themselves.
I would like to deal in particular with schools where parents are generally in the low-income bracket and cannot, even if they want to, pay voluntary levies of this kind as many of the schools in better areas are able to do. They are the ones that are really suffering. We know the department is not providing the money for adequate facilities, books and the other things that the schools require for a full educational programme, and we are actually finding that the standard of education at those schools is going down and down. I think that is most irresponsible.
Of course, what the hon the Minister has not had the courage to do today is to repeat what he said at his party congress, namely that apartheid is … [Time expired.]
Mr Speaker, I first of all want to tell both hon members that I am naturally fully aware of the problem. I am painfully aware of it.
Secondly, it is true, of course, that parents must realise that they have a specific responsibility with regard to the contribution of funds, whether by way of school fees, or by way of a possible other model, such as a compulsory school levy.
It is, however, entirely untrue that we are postponing this decision—the hon members know this—because if that were the case, we would have done it directly after the previous election. The hon members accused me of having withheld it because we were afraid of the election last year. We are still withholding it now for the simple reason that we shall not take such a decision before we have discussed it with our partners in education and before we ourselves have conducted a thorough investigation into it.
I want to say at once that the Government will most definitely ensure that it fulfils its primary responsibility with regard to the provision of basic education services.
Moreover, I want to give the assurance that in this important matter, too, the child’s interests are considered paramount; that will always be borne in mind.
I also want to say that there is no place and no justification for petty party-political considerations or for the abuse of level-headed thinking in regard to this matter, but only for educational norms which will apply whenever decisions are taken. In accordance with the methods of my department, such a matter is accompanied by thorough research and investigation and I shall consult all my associates in this regard. I also want to say that these associates include persons such as the members of the provincial education boards …
Order! I regret to inform the hon the Minister that his time, as well as the time for this interpellation, has expired.
†Indicates translated version.
Own Affairs:
asked the Minister of Education and Culture:
- (1) Whether the maximum salary scale of school secretaries in the Cape Province is R10 371 per annum compared to R15 912 per annum in the other provinces; if not, what are the applicable salary scales;
- (2) whether the salary scales and occupational designation of school secretaries in the Cape Province is under review; if so, when is a decision in this regard anticipated; if not, why not?
- (1) The term school secretary is a domestic designation. The correct rank designations of the incumbents of these posts are Provincial Administration Clerk and Senior Provincial Administration Clerk. Until 31 December 1988 the maximums of the salary scales were R11 371 and R15 912 respectively. With effect from 1 January 1989 the maximums of the scales were increased to R11 931 and R18 312 respectively. Because of historic reasons there are differences in the level of post allocations. In the Cape posts on the level of Provincial Administation Clerk only were instituted. In the Transvaal certain posts of Senior Provincial Administration Clerk and Provincial Administration Clerk were instituted. In the Orange Free State and Natal the posts that have been instituted are interchangeable and a Provincial Administration Clerk can be promoted to Senior Provincial Administration Clerk after certain qualifying periods and requirements have been met;
- (2) yes, the Department is at present investigating the structure, salary scales, career promotion and other relevant matters relating to this occupational class. The investigation concerns all the provinces and is being done with the purpose of creating a uniform dispensation for the whole Department. In view of the extent of this investigation a date for completion cannot be set at this stage, but the matter is regarded as a very high priority.
Mr Speaker, arising out of the hon the Minister’s reply, is the hon the Minister aware that the situation which presently obtains has been so for over 5 years and that school secretaries, or whatever one might want to call them, in the Cape Province, who do virtually identical work to that of school secretaries in other provinces, have over the past 5 years lost over R20 000 in salary by comparison to their counterparts in other provinces? In view of these salary adjustments which have taken place at the beginning of this year, they now receive R7 000 a year less — almost half the salary of their counterparts are receiving in other provinces. I would like to ask the hon the Minister what he has done about this or whether he was not aware of it.
Mr Speaker, I should like to ask the hon member whether he does not want to spend a bit of his time to read my reply on his question. Of course, I did say that there was a difference because of historical reasons. It is as a result of this difference that my department has taken the bull by the horns,, has launched an investigation and we are now trying to create a system which will accomplish equality of rights in respect of all the provinces. This is my reply on the question of the hon member. Of course I am aware of it. That is why we are doing something about it.
Mr Speaker, further arising from the Minister’s reply, I would like to know from the hon the Minister whether he is aware of the fact that this historical situation that he refers to has been in existence for many years and that over the past 5 years, representations have been made to try to bring parity about and nothing has been done about it.
asked the Minister of Education and Culture:
- (1) Whether he has determined regulations and/or guidelines for the recognition of teacher associations; if so, (a) when were these regulations finalized and (b) what organizations and/or individuals were consulted in the drafting of the regulations and/or guidelines;
- (2) whether these regulations and/or guidelines have been gazetted; if not, why not; if so, on what date;
- (3) whether he will make available a copy of these regulations and/or guidelines; if not, why not?
- (1) Yes, guidelines were determined,
- (a) June 1987,
- (b) the Teachers’ Federal Council;
- (2) no, as it is not required;
- (3) yes.
Mr Speaker, arising from the reply of the hon the Minister and his reply to an exactly similar question asked one year ago, can the hon the Minister indicate to me as to whether these guidelines have any legal status whatsoever?
Mr Speaker, yes, it does have legal power according to the existing specified regulations whereby I have the authority to … [Interjections.]
Order! The time has expired for these questions. I unfortunately could not hear the hon the Minister either.
May I please ask that question number 3 stand over?
The time allowed for questions has already expired; therefore the question would have stood over in any case or would have automatically be recorded in Hansard.
That is why I ask the question now, because it will be recorded in Hansard, but I should like to ask that question number 3 stand over….
It will stand over. That concludes the time allowed for questions today on the Question Paper.
asked the Minister of Education and Culture. [Reply standing over.]
Business interrupted in accordance with Rule 180C (3) of the Standing Rules of Parliament.
asked the Minister of Education and Culture:
Whether doctors or other medical personnel are permitted to address pupils at schools falling under the control of his Department on the health hazards of smoking; if not, why not?
Yes, although it is Departmental policy that only educationally qualified teaching staff may address pupils during school hours, experts may address pupils on occasion, subject to certain conditions.
Persons who are not educationists may, at the request of a principal, address parents and pupils on topical issues outside school hours.
Own Affairs:
Mr M Rajab to ask the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council:
Whether, in view of the findings of the James Commission of Inquiry that the (a) member for Arena Park exerted undue and irregular pressure for the transfer and/or promotion of certain individuals and (b) Chief Director: Planning Services of the Department of Education and Culture was an unreliable witness and had told untruths to the Commission, the Administration: House of Delegates intends taking any steps in this regard?
Mr Chairman, the reply is: Yes. The Administration intends taking action. The Director-General in the House of Delegates is presently considering the options open to the Administration in terms of the Public Service Act.
Mr Chairman, I am pleased that the hon the Acting Chairman of the Ministers’ Council has indicated to us this afternoon that his Administration intends taking action in terms of the Public Service Act. However it is a matter of some regret that the hon the Acting Chairman of the Ministers’ Council had not made that notice public immediately after the recommendation of the James Commission was made public.
Whilst we are talking about the James Commission, may I remind hon members of this House that despite the fact that that report has been widely reported in the media, hon members of this House have not yet seen it. I would call upon the newly-appointed hon Chief Whip of this House to ensure that this omission is rectified as soon as possible.
I believe that all of us need to look at the report at first hand and to glean therefrom information as and when we require it.
In particular, I should like to commend to the hon the Acting Chairman of the Ministers’ Council the position of Mr S C Naidoo who was removed from his position and side-tracked into a non-promotable one, solely because he had the aplomb to stand up to the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. We all know what the James Commission has said about this “mean-minded bully”. However, to do this to an innocent member of the public service was not only unpardonable, but was certainly a travesty of justice, because that man was not able to seek any redress. I should commend that particular name to the hon the Acting Chairman of the Ministers’ Council’s attention.
Whilst I am doing that I should also like to commend to him the names of the two Verasamy’s, Mr Dickie Verasamy and the other, both of whom suffered a similar fate. All this because they were termed by this “mean-minded bully” to be “mischief-makers” and they did not go along with what he had in mind. This not only reflects badly on the administration, it does not inspire any confidence in the public service. I believe that it is about time we gave members of the public service some dignity. I believe it is about time we were able to give them some security … [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, no doubt the hon the Acting Chairman of the Ministers’ Council has read a circular issued by his colleague the hon the Minister of Education and Development Aid, who holds office under general affairs. The notice was to the effect that in view of the evidence presented before the Van den Heever Commission concerning the conduct of a senior official, a deputy director in that Department, that deputy director has been suspended. I should like to know from the hon the Acting Chairman of the Ministers’ Council, if he has gumption, why he has not taken similar action concerning a senior member of his own administrative staff, to wit Dr G K Nair. I should like to suggest to the hon the Acting Chairman of the Ministers’ Council that to the extent that he delays taking appropriate action the public holds him personally liable.
I should also like to continue where the hon member for Springfield left off. What was done to Mr S C Naidoo was a sin of the first order. One would have expected the hon the Acting Chairman of the Ministers’ Council to have taken remedial action immediately the facts were drawn to his attention. That has not been done and the public holds the hon the Acting Chairman of the Ministers’ Council accountable. As far as the public is concerned, it does not have direct dealings with officials, but where a Minister does not see to it that the rot in his Department is removed, the stench eliminated and graft and corruption made completely impossible in the future by taking strong decisive action against those who are responsible, that Minister is responsible, not only is such a Minister responsible, but his hon colleagues in the Ministers’ Council are co-responsible. [Time expired.]
Mr Chairman, is the hon the Minister of Education and Culture aware of the fact that preferential treatment was given to certain teachers who were NPP supporters, insofar as their transfer and promotions are concerned? Certain teachers who had actively canvassed for their party were considered favourably.
Mr Chairman, I thank you for again affording me the opportunity to come into this interpellation. I want to continue where my hon benchmate left off in regard to the question of the Chief Director: Planning Services of the Department of Education and Culture.
It is sad when an official of the Administration is mentioned in this fashion. It is sadder still when a commission of inquiry has an adverse finding in respect of an official. The matter becomes that much more compounded when not only a commission of inquiry but also two committees of a House of Parliament also have adverse findings in respect of a particular official. The Thaver Committee as well as the James Commission have found that the Chief Director: Planning Services of the Department of Education and Culture was not only an untruthful witness but that he also lied to them.
That is a damning indictment and I believe that the hon the Acting Chairman of the Ministers’ Council should take immediate steps to address that problem. The problem will not only lie within his own department. I am concerned about the effect that it will have on the community at large if it is seen that the department condones that kind of action in a sense by not taking immediate steps.
I see my hon colleague across the floor is shaking his head but the fact of the matter is that he should have made a public statement immediately to the effect that immediate action was to be taken in this regard. I do not expect the hon the Acting Chairman of the Ministers’ Council to merely wield the big stick. I believe that the Act provides for a mechanism by which action can be taken. I believe that it is all that is required but it should be done as quickly as possible to obviate any kind of smell in the community.
Mr Chairman, I took very close note of what was said in the House this afternoon. I want to assure every hon member who spoke this afternoon that we have not lost sight of what was said in the report of the James Commission. One can not rush in to take action of any kind in a helter-skelter manner. One has to study the report in detail before action can be taken. I want to assure the House that my department—especially with the Director-General at the head of that department—is giving cognisance to all the matters that were raised here this afternoon. I want to assure this House that no stone will be left unturned until we have put all the matters right.
Mention was made of the Verasamys as well as Mr S C Naidoo. We have taken note of the reports but the Verasamys’ position has already been rectified as hon members know. Other matters too have already been rectified but it is not yet in the public’s interest to make known what has been done already. When the whole matter is completed the department will make it clearly known to the public as to what actions were taken.
I also want to say—as advised by my department—that disciplinary matters are of a sensitive nature as well as being legal issues. One must therefore be very careful not to go public until one is absolutely sure of having one’s facts correct.
I want to say that we must not be prejudiced against any cases that we take up. I can assure hon members … [Time expired.]
†Indicates translated version.
Own Affairs:
asked the Minister of Education and Culture:
- (1) Whether any qualified teachers employed by his Department were retrenched in 1988; if so, (a) how many and (b) for what categories of reasons;
- (2) whether any qualified teachers employed on a temporary basis were not re-employed when they re-applied for posts in 1989; if so, (a) how many and (b) for what categories of reasons?
- (1) Yes.
- (a) 1.
- (b) Services were not required.
- (2) No.
- (a) Falls away.
- (b) Falls away.
Mr Chairman, arising out of the reply of the hon the Minister, might I ask him, with reference to question 1(a) and (b), when it was decided that that individual’s services were no longer required? Surely, when one has a qualified teacher, and that teacher is employed by the department, a commitment has been made by the department to employ that teacher for certain professional reasons. The question is simply, when and why was it decided that the services were no longer required?
Mr Chairman, I am not able to tell the hon member that now, but I will provide him with the answer.
Mr Chairman, further arising out of the hon the Minister’s reply, is the House to understand from the purport of the hon the Minister’s reply that his department actually employed a qualified teacher whose services were not necessary? If so, an explanation is required. If not, was there any diminution in the number of pupils during the period concerned, that is 1988, which made a fully-qualified teacher redundant?
Mr Chairman, educationists are employed according to needs in the department. If the need is not there any longer, the services are terminated. As far as the other question is concerned, I can look it up for the hon member and make the information available to him. However, as far as services are concerned, if there is no need for that service, it terminates.
asked the Minister of Housing:
- (1) Whether there is a rent boycott in Bonella, Cato Manor, at present; if so, (a) when did the boycott commence and (b) what are the reasons for it;
- (2) whether he has received any representations regarding this area; if so, what are the relevant details;
- (3) whether he is contemplating any action against persons involved in the boycott; if so, what are the relevant details;
- (4) whether he will make a statement on the matter?
- (1) No boycott, as such, has been announced by any organisation. It is true, however, that, as at 13 February 1989, of the 161 tenants, 150 were in arrears — 33 for one month and 117 for two months.
- (a) Without admitting that there is an organised boycott, the defaulting began one month after initial occupation in December 1988 and January 1989.
- (b) The administration is at present investigating the reasons for defaulting.
- (2) Yes. A memorandum by the Cato Manor Residents’ Association was received by the Administration on 14 December 1988, wherein they —
- (a) expressed their disappointment with the standard and qualify of the houses in general;
- (b) informed that the rentals of the houses were between 40% and 70% of the family income per month;
- (c) claimed that this Administration has failed in its objective to provide affordable low-income houses;
- (d) claimed that the standard of the houses had been seriously compromised to keep down the costs of the units in comparison to other similar projects;
- (e) claimed that a substantial part of the costs of the project can be contributed to poor soil conditions and the topography of the Bonella area;
- (f) claimed in conclusion that proper consultation in the initial stages of planning and construction could have averted many of the problems being encountered now, and
- (g) recommended that all costs incurred in preparing the ground for actual construction should be written off and a new formula be negotiated.
- (3) Defaulters will be dealt with in the normal way.
- (4) Pending the outcome of the investigation mentioned in 1(b) above, I do not intend making a statement.
Mr Chairman, arising from the hon the Minister’s reply, will he kindly take this House into his confidence and tell us what the nature of the accommodation provided in Bonella is? What is the rental which each occupant of a house is required to pay? Is there any basis for the statement that the rentals constitute between 40% and 70% of the income of any particular household? Is the hon the Minister aware of the sociological axiom that no-one should be required to pay more than 25% of the household income in rent and that if the rent exceeds that 25%, one is condemning that particular family to semi-starvation?
Mr Chairman, further arising out of the hon the Minister’s reply, could he also indicate to this House whether there exists a local affairs committee in that area and if so, if they made negotiations with the community difficult.
Mr Chairman, if I may answer the last question first: there is no local affairs committee in that area and therefore such a committee was not responsible for the difficulty in communicating with the people there. I do hope that in the future we will have a local affairs committee so that negotiations will be much easier.
As far as the hon member for Reservoir Hills is concerned, I want to say that I am completely aware of the fact that rental should not be more than 25% of the earning of an individual. However, I as Minister was also alarmed at the revelations here and therefore we subjected it to an intensive investigation. I have a full report here. The hon member wants to know about individual houses and the amounts they pay in rental. It is all here. If he wants it, we can make it available to him. There are a number of pages and details given.
We have tried to reduce the rental as far as possible. We feel quite satisfied that the measures taken thus far have been reasonable, but if they could be reduced further in some way or other I as Minister would be happy, because they are still not within the 25% of the income of the people. One has to take into account the total extent of the erven, the cost of the services rendered there, the cost of individual erven, the cost of developing that area because of the nature of its topography, the cost of each house, and the cost of water reticulation and so on. All these add up to an amount greater than 25% of the earning of the people.
I can assure hon members that neither my department nor I am happy about the amount they have to pay, but having subjected this matter to investigation, I am satisfied that the rentals have been reduced to some extent.
Mr Chairman, further arising from the hon the Minister’s reply, I appreciate the offer made by him. In reaction thereto I would be very pleased if he would make that information available to all hon members of this House.
Arising from a comment made by the hon the Minister that because there is no local affairs committee or other responsible body with which he could liaise, might I remind him that the Cato Manor Residence Association, headed by Mr Roland Parsothan, is a body that has been operating in that area for a considerable period of time, and in fact had it not been for the efforts of that association we would not have known that there is a problem regarding rents in Bonella. I would strongly urge the hon the Minister in fact to liaise very closely with that association.
Mr Chairman, further arising from the answers of the hon the Minister, I want to ask him the following. He said that the rental is 25% of a person’s income. I want to know from him if his department recognises old age pensions, maintenance grants and disability grants as income.
Mr Chairman, first of all I want to say I take note of what the hon member for Springfield had to say, but while I agree with him that the CMRA might have given us some assistance in this connection, we have had more problems with them than they have given us assistance. I want to be a bit wary in communicating with them. I would rather have my own people in the field reporting to us. However, I do not deny the fact that they are on the spot and if there is any instance in which they could serve a purpose we would be prepared to listen to them, albeit that we would make our own decisions.
I take note of the fact that there is concern but I am not sure at this stage whether we have accommodated any of them. I can assure hon members that the matter of pensioners and others will be taken care of in the future development which is being prepared for now.
Mr Chairman, further arising out of the hon the Minister’s reply, I would just like him to consider the desirability of reviving the Cato Manor Advisory Committee which was established during the time when the hon member for Red Hill was the Minister of Housing. In my opinion that committee played a useful role in advising the Ministry insofar as the requirements for that area was concerned. Will the hon the Minister consider this?
Mr Chairman, we shall take note of that and see whether we can make use of the committee.