Mr Speaker, on 24 August 1988 the Cabinet lent its approval to the transformation of the South African Transport Services into a company. As hon members are aware, the Legal Succession to the South African Transport Services Bill, which lays the foundation for the transformation of the SATS into a public company, has recently been introduced into Parliament and is at present under consideration. I shall therefore refrain from commenting or expressing an opinion on the matter at this stage. The opportunity for discussion may very well present itself later during the debates on this Appropriation Bill.

I now wish to give hon members a review of the activities of the SATS during the 1988-89 financial year and submit to Parliament the Transport Services Appropriation Bill, 1989.

Review of activities, 1988-89

Except where otherwise stated, the percentage change in respect of the period April to December 1988 will be compared with the same period during the previous year.

Passenger services—Rail

The number of main-line passengers decreased by 40%, which can be ascribed chiefly to fewer second and third class short distance main-line passengers having been conveyed after rationalisation on 2 November 1987. The average distance of conveyance for these two classes increased by 9% and 20% respectively. The net result of this was that revenue derived from main-line passengers decreased by only 17%. The expected substantial decline, especially in the number of main-line passengers over long distances, did not materialise. This is attributed to the moderate economic climate, the provision of more employment, a more peaceful labour situation and the improved competitive position of the passenger train. No further rationalisation therefore took place with regard to main-line and regional passenger trains. Although commuter passenger journeys remained at the same level, revenue derived from commuter services increased by 11%.

The loss on rail passenger services for the 1988-89 financial year is estimated at R1 277 million. Compensation from the State amounts to R644 million, which implies that the balance of R633 million will have to be offset by means of internal cross-subsidisation.

The Khayelitsha railway line was officially put into operation on 11 March 1988 and it is anticipated that the new guaranteed Nasrec railway line will be commissioned during the Rand Show in March 1989.

Goods—Rail

The total tonnage of revenue-earning traffic reflects an increase of 5,9%. This is ascribed to the increase in the level of general economic activity which gave rise to a bigger demand for especially container traffic, contract traffic, petroleum products and selected traffic. The first two automatic sorting systems were placed in service at Bellville and Kaserne in order to ensure a service of the highest possible quality to clients and at the same time to operate goods-shed services profitably.

A hub and spoke system consisting of a number of satellite and collecting stations around every sorting point is envisaged to optimise the service.

Most of the 60 000 account holders of the SATS have already adapted favourably to the Intac accounting system. An effort is being made to refine the system further by integrating client accounts electronically with this system.

Speed and quality of service are playing an increasingly important role in those market segments where competition is stiff. It is therefore imperative that the inherent disadvantages of rail transport as against road transport in respect of terminal handling and accompanying door-to-door service be overcome as far as possible.

Having regard to this, two concepts are in the development stage. The first is the piggy-back truck concept, which basically involves a flat-bed truck on which a loaded road vehicle or semitrailer is “carried piggy-back” or transported further by rail. There is also the roadrailer concept consisting of a semi-trailer with permanent road wheels which, with the addition of a rail bogie, can be hauled by rail as an ordinary truck. The first prototypes will be tested during 1989.

Another remarkable achievement is that trains consisting of 200 coal trucks will soon be formally introduced between Ermelo and Richards Bay. These trains, which will be approximately 2,5 km long—the longest in Africa—have a gross mass of some 20 800 tons and will be hauled by four class 11 electric locomotives.

An improved technique in the operation of coal trains resulted in a saving on energy of 35%, which represents a saving of R1 000 per train journey.

Airways

Notwithstanding substantial cost increases, South African Airways succeeded in realising a profit of R102,7 million for the period April to December 1988.

Passenger traffic on the international services decreased by 1,6%. This decline can be ascribed directly to the loss of the Australian services. If these services are not taken into account, an increase of 2,5% has, in fact, been realised.

Adjustments in fares, the control of expenditure and the better utilisation of manpower promoted profitability.

The present international fleet capacity is already being fully utilised. If South African Airways wishes to maintain its competitive position, a new generation of aircraft is required. Several new types of aircraft are being considered at present and an announcement will be made in due course.

The number of passengers conveyed on the domestic services increased by 17,5%. During December 1988 history was made when more passengers than ever before, namely 422 801, were conveyed on the domestic routes in a single month.

Maintenance work on the aircraft of neighbouring states generated revenue amounting to R3,1 million, while R443 000 was derived from the training of foreign airline crews.

Road transport

The total revenue-earning kilometres per vehicle increased by approximately 5,7%, and revenue earned per vehicle by 12,3%.

As a result of, inter alia, an increase in productivity and a growth in goods traffic, the total revenue increased by 11,1%.

The expansion of the 300 km radius had no noticeable effect on traffic trends.

Harbours

The period April to December 1988 was characterised by a high level of activity in Richards Bay and Durban harbours.

Improved work methods and the commissioning of additional equipment, such as a second shiploader at Richards Bay harbour, made it possible to continue rendering a service of good quality.

Notwithstanding the sanctions, a drastic curtailment of domestic spending and import control measures, the value of imports increased by 12,9% and that of exports by 6,4%.

I have accepted all the recommendations of the Burggraaf Committee in connection with the possible development of certain portions of Table Bay Harbour for tourism and recreational purposes.

A private company, namely The Victoria and Alfred Waterfront Development Company (Pty) Ltd, has been established to redevelop the Victoria and Alfred harbour areas within the framework of the report.

An important proviso is that the interests of the fishing and the ship repair industries should not be prejudiced.

Pipelines

The volume of petroleum products and crude oil conveyed by pipeline increased by 8,7%.

This has resulted in an increase in revenue of 12,5%.

Notwithstanding the exceptionally high performance it was possible to keep expenditure at an acceptable level within the limits of the budget.

Labour

The SATS place a high premium on peaceful labour relations. As the management of sound labour relations is a line function, the necessary infrastructure has been developed in regions and departments in order to ensure that labour problems are dealt with at the place of origin.

Courses in negotiation skills are presented to top officials and supervisors are trained to deal with labour unrest.

Two relatively big strikes in the East London and Durban areas, as well as a few minor incidents where activities were temporarily suspended, were successfully defused. Stay-away campaigns by Black employees during commemoration days were also dealt with satisfactorily.

Symbolic of the new approach in respect of labour relations within the SATS, is the conclusion of an agreement of recognition between the Management of the SATS and the SAA Engineering Association after many years of negotiation. An important advantage of this agreement is that firm and permanent guidelines for the process of collective bargaining were laid down.

Personnel

The number of personnel was further reduced by 12 955 units, or 6,71%, to 179 611, I wish to confirm that no personnel were dismissed in the process.

Following a salary dispute between the SATS and member trade unions of the Federation of Trade Unions of the SATS, the salaries of SATS employees were increased with effect from the October 1988 pay-month.

Various groups of personnel were subjected to grade evaluation in terms of which they were placed on the correct level of remuneration.

Market relatedness, when supply and demand in the labour market are of great importance, also plays an important role. Efforts are being made to remain market related by means of interfacing in order to curb a high labour turnover as far as possible, thereby retaining the expertise and experience of personnel.

Tariffs

Hon members will recall that I announced in my Budget Speech on 24 February last year that no general increase in tariffs would be introduced.

As a result of the salary dispute which was settled in favour of the trade unions, the SATS were compelled, however, to increase tariffs by 7,5% in order to obtain the additional funds.

I am satisfied that the increase was very reasonable if regard is had to the fact that the comparative rate of inflation during the 17 months since the last tariff adjustment in July 1987 was approximately 19%.

Foreign exchange activities

As hon members are aware, I appointed a specialist committee in 1987 under the chairmanship of Mr James Cross to investigate the activities of the SATS in the foreign exchange markets and the resultant losses. This committee’s report was referred to a subcommittee of the Joint Committee on Public Accounts late last year.

Following the findings and recommendations of the specialist committee, the unrealised losses of R3,1 billion were accounted for by means of a single entry and will be written off against the revalued assets of the SATS.

The net book value of the SATS’ assets amounted to approximately R14 billion on 31 March 1988, while the replacement value of fixed assets—excluding land—will be approximately R56 billion.

The Report of the Specialist Committee on the Foreign Exchange Activities of the SA Transport Services, as well as the Report of the Joint Committee on Public Accounts, has already been tabled for possible discussion during the debates on this Appropriation Bill.

†Prospects for 1989-90

It is foreseen that the economy will cool off during the 1989-90 financial year. Some of the reasons given for this are the expected decline in real consumer spending, a higher rate of inflation and the effect of certain control measures.

The pressure exerted on the Republic from abroad will possibly continue and, together with the expected decline in international economic growth, will have a dampening effect on exports from the Republic. This will inevitably have a detrimental effect on economic growth and a growth rate of approximately 2% is anticipated.

The demand for transport will therefore increase at a relatively low rate. This low rate, together with a virtually fully deregulated transport market, represents a challenge to Transport Services to keep abreast of changing circumstances and to be managed strictly in accordance with sound business principles.

The budget for 1989-90 was based on an inflation rate of 14%. As a result of the inflation differential between the Republic and its major trading partners, it is foreseen that the rand will remain under pressure. This can result in an increase in overseas payments, for instance in respect of aircraft fuel, and consequently a rise in cost levels.

It is anticipated that the decline in international economic growth will be accompanied by greater economic uncertainties in the Western World and increasing inflationary pressure. It is therefore expected that the value of exports will increase by 10% and that of imports by 8%.

It is estimated that revenue will increase by 7,1% or R786 million as against the 1988-89 financial year. Other reasons are the effect of the tariff increases which were introduced during 1988-89 and the adjustments in rail goods contract rates, as well as lata tariffs on the international services of SA Airways.

The announced and expected price increases in respect of specific inputs and a general rate of inflation of 14% will increase the price of material and energy inputs on average by 13,3%.

Notwithstanding this cost pressure and the effect of salary increases which were granted recently, the Budget is only 10,5% higher than the revised estimate for 1988-89. The estimated working deficit amounts to R493 million. The estimated deficit in respect of main-line and commuter rail passenger services amounts to R1 332 million of which R645 million is to be made good by the State. An amount of R687 million must therefore be offset by means of cross-subsidisation. This working deficit necessitates an adjustment in tariffs with effect from 1 April 1989 in order to balance the Transport Services’ books.

I have recently discussed the parameters on which the Budget was based with representatives of organised trade and industry, the SA Agricultural Union and the Chamber of Mines. They appreciated the necessity for an increase in tariffs but requested that such an increase should be lower than the rate of inflation. Thanks to efficient management and a dedicated personnel corps I succeeded in complying with the business community’s request and in increasing tariffs on average by only 8,7%. Hon members will note that the increase is much lower than the rate of inflation. [Interjections.]

Order! It is customary that hon Ministers are not interrupted during the delivery of a budget speech and I will be glad if hon members will comply with that rule. The hon the Minister may continue.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

As a result of the tariff adjustment, the Transport Services’ revenue will increase by R495 million or 4,2%.

Mr Speaker, on a point of order: I would just like some enlightenment. Is this a new instant custom which has suddenly been introduced?

Order! That is quite correct. The hon member may take his seat.

Mr Speaker, in terms of which rule?

Order! The hon the Minister may proceed.

Mr Speaker, on a point of order …

Order! I have given my ruling. The hon member may take his seat and the hon the Minister may proceed.

Mr Speaker, I would like to enquire under which ruling …

Order! I have given my ruling. I am not to be cross-examined by an hon member.

Mr Speaker, do you not have a rule book?

Order! The hon the Minister may continue.

What a lot of nonsense!

Such an increase will turn the expected deficit for 1989-90 into a surplus of R2 million.

Mr Speaker, on a point of order: I want to draw your attention to the fact that the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central made the comment—I am sorry to repeat it—“bloody nonsense” after you had given your ruling.

Order! Thank you very much, I heard it. The hon the Minister may continue.

In view of the Transport Services’ competitiveness in the transport market the proposed increase in tariffs is, as in the past, based on a differentiated basis.

I shall now furnish hon members with some particulars of the tariff increases. Rail goods tariffs are being increased on average by 8,6%. The average increase in tariffs applicable to highrated traffic will be 6,1%. Tariffs for heavy containers conveyed by unit trains are to be increased on average by 11,8%, but tariffs for light containers are to remain unchanged. The tariffs applicable to petrol and diesel conveyed by rail are to increase on average by 8%. The tariff scales for mini-containers on unit trains are to remain unchanged but in the case of non-unit trains tariffs are being increased by 5%. Heavycontainer tariffs and tariffs for empty containers conveyed over routes other than unit routes are to be increased by 14% on average and 13,5%, respectively.

Tariffs in respect of low-rated traffic are increased on average by 10,5%, while tariffs for manganese ore from Postmasburg to Port Elizabeth are being increased by 14%. Despite this increase, manganese ore is still being conveyed below cost over this route. Tariffs for traffic conveyed at truck rates are to be increased by 12% and those for timber and specific exempted traffic, by 10,6% on average and 12%, respectively.

The increase in the tariffs for coal not conveyed under contract conditions, is on average 7,2% and that for livestock, 13,5%. Storage and demurrage charges are being increased by 10%.

Rail passenger fares in respect of all classes of journeys on mainline and commuter trains are to be increased on average by 10%. The average increase in the tariffs for goods, passengers, parcels and mail conveyed by road is 14%. Harbour tariffs are being adjusted on average by 8,5%.

Tariffs for marine services are being increased by 13,5% and those for cargo services by 1,2%. The average increase in cargo-handling charges is 9%. Ad valorem wharfage rates are not being increased.

Insofar as the domestic services of the SA Airways are concerned, passenger fares in the business and economy classes are being increased by 13,7% and 9% respectively, while air freight rates are to be increased by 10%. As a result of the very big demand for seats and the quality of service rendered in the business class, the fares in respect of this class are being increased by a higher percentage than those of the economy class.

The tariffs for white products conveyed by pipeline are being increased by 8% and those for crude oil by 12%.

Capital budget

The capital budget was compiled after careful planning and with due regard to the expected economic circumstances, as well as Transport Services’ operating requirements.

The budget amounts to R1 710 million. Of this amount, R652,3 million is anticipated to be expended on projects which have already been approved and in respect of which work has already commenced.

An amount of R797,2 million is required in respect of new programmes under existing globular items. This amount includes R270 million in favour of the House Ownership Fund. Loans granted to Transport Services’ employees for housing purposes were previously financed by means of surplus funds from the Pension Funds. It has been decided, however, that funds for housing purposes will henceforth be appropriated by means of the capital budget. The surplus funds from the Pension Funds will therefore become available for investment in the open market.

The balance of R260,5 million is required for new specific projects with an estimated total cost of R2 220,4 million. The latter projects are essential for the long-term efficacy of Transport Services’ operations.

Deregulation

A commencement was made with the deregulation of the transport market approximately a year ago and 85% of the market has already been deregulated. In spite of this, Transport Services managed to retain its market share and basically to keep within its budget. With the introduction of exempted areas within a radius of 300 kilometres, the transport market was in fact deregulated, although areas falling outside these zones are still to be finalised.

A specialist group is at present looking into the deregulation of the domestic air transport market.

* Privatisation

With regard to privatisation, it is the accepted policy of the Government that the State should become less involved in the domestic economy of the country and various steps have already been taken in terms of which several State and semiState activities have been earmarked for privatisation. Free competition in the transport market is being pursued purposefully and the personnel are motivated to meet the challenge.

I have already stated on several occasions, but wish to reiterate once again, that the interests of the SATS personnel will be given priority in any process of privatisation.

Apart from two exceptions, the Government has accepted the recommendations contained in the De Villiers Report.

Dr De Villiers recommended an advisory board for Transport Services with a Minister as chairman. However, after further negotiations with Dr De Villiers, the establishment of a company with a board of directors under the chairmanship of a businessman from the private sector was decided upon.

No action may, however, be taken until the founding legislation has been approved by Parliament.

Appreciation

I wish to avail myself of the opportunity of conveying my sincere appreciation to the General Manager and every member of the personnel for the diligence displayed by them during the past year in keeping the wheels rolling.

The reduction in personnel was accomplished without a loss of productivity, which demonstrates the positive reaction of the personnel. Their loyalty and dedication towards the SATS are indeed a great source of encouragement to me.

I also wish to thank the various trade unions for their positive approach. Their responsible actions in maintaining industrial peace deserve high praise.

Mr Bertie Groenewald, Deputy General Manager (Technical Services), will retire at the end of this month and we wish to thank him most sincerely for the dedicated service he has rendered over many years. May he enjoy a very long and well-deserved retirement. Mr Groenewald will be succeeded by Mr Helmuth Hagen.

In conclusion I should like to convey my sincere gratitude to Deputy Minister Myburgh Streicher, the three Commissioners of the South African Transport Services Board, namely Dupel Erasmus, Piet Aucamp and Koos Albertyn, as well as Tom Bosch and his personnel for the proficient manner in which they have supported me. Their advice and co-operation mean a great deal to me.

Tabling

Mr Speaker, I now lay on the Table—

1. 1. The Estimates of Expenditure of the South African Transport Services for the financial year ending 31 March 1990, and
2. 2. A memorandum setting out the estimated financial results of the South African Transport Services for the financial years 1988-89 and 1989-90, together with the latest financial and other statistics.

Bill, budget speech and papers tabled referred to Joint Committee on Transport and Communications in terms of Rule 163.

Order! I regret that the disturbance in the electronic system interrupted the hon the Minister in the delivery of his Budget Speech. This is one of those things over which one has no control. That concludes the Budget Speech of the hon the Minister of Transport Affairs.

Mr Speaker, the CP cannot support this Bill because we are of the opinion that the SATS can best fulfil its mission, namely the provision of a comprehensive transport infrastructure for the RSA, as a State undertaking under parliamentary control, as is the case at present.

This morning there were already reports in the media that the hon the Minister of Transport Affairs would probably be introducing his last Transport Services Appropriation today, owing to the expected coming into operation of the Bill at present under discussion. Meaningful parliamentary control over the SATS, which has been brought into existence and maintained by the taxpayer over the years with billions of rands, is now being done away with. However, the taxpayer must continue to guarantee the solvency and a reasonable profit for the undertaking. I am referring to clause 15 in this regard.

The wide powers which the two new institutions, namely a public company and a corporation, will enjoy, are totally unacceptable under such circumstances. Examples of this are the utilisation of immovable property in conflict with the provisions of applicable township construction or development schemes, guide plans or statutory provisions, provided the permission of the relevant Government-appointed Administrator and Executive Committee is obtained. I am referring to clause 13.

There is also the alienation of the corporation’s business or assets by means by subsidiary companies, without Parliament being able to control this effectively. I am referring to clause 23(3)(j). We predict rising tariffs, increasing career uncertainty and poorer services to the general public as a result of this process of privatisation which the Government is setting in motion by means of this Bill. The tragedy is that many of these consequences can be concealed from the voters by the Government for at least two years after the Bill has come into effect as a result of the transitional provisions in the Bill. We shall consequently be voting against this Bill.

Mr Speaker, the PFP will oppose this Bill but wishes to state that it supports the principle of privatisation in appropriate circumstances. Parts of the SATS should in the view of my party be privatised. This Bill, however, is not a necessary prerequisite towards such a privatisation process. This measure is not—and I repeat not—a privatisation measure. It is unnecessary and it is also undesirable for a number of reasons, particularly in that pending privatisation it removes the SATS from parliamentary control and also removes parliamentary control over the eventual privatisation of any subsidiary. It is also our view that the implementation of this Bill will in fact result in increased tariffs having to be borne by users of many of the SATS services. For these reasons we will vote against the Bill.

Mr Speaker, the NP supports this legislation because the objective was not to provide for privatisation, but rather to change the structure of the Transport Services …

Order! Owing to the constant disturbance in the electronic system, business will now be suspended for a few minutes.

Business suspended at 14h59 and resumed at 15h07.

Order! The hon member for Primrose may start his speech again.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. If we pass the Bill, and since this will be the last budget, we promise not to have such realistic sound effects if there is another Transport Services budget.

The NP supports this legislation, because its objective has never been to privatise the SATS. The purpose of the Bill was to change the legal framework. At this stage the SATS has to a great extent accomplished its task as an instrument of development. Consequently it is necessary to change the SATS’ structure in order to compete in the future.

The Transport Services will have to play a new part in the period that lies ahead, and that is why we decided to submit this Bill which I hope will be passed here today. It provides for a few very important matters, and that is why it is supported by the NP.

In the first place it addresses the employee’s position very well and he is protected in this new transitional phase. Secondly the hon the Minister of Transport Affairs is still responsible to Parliament and has to report here on what his board of directors is doing. That is why it is essential that the debate that is conducted on the Transport Vote will make sufficient provision for an opportunity to question the hon the Minister on what is happening in the Transport Services.

Thirdly it provides for the market situation to be deregulated and for the Transport Services to fulfil its role in that situation. In the fourth place it provides for the Transport Services to be subject to statutory rules to a lesser extent and subject to a greater extent to the related market forces and the establishment of a commuter corporation which will ensure that this loss-incurring organisation can play its part in future in transporting people by means of commuter services.

In the last and most important place, this legislation, as well as subsequent legislation, provides for transport to be deregulated in its totality and made subject to market forces to a greater extent. For these reasons the NP supports the Bill.

Question put to House of Representatives: That the Bill be now read a second time.

Question agreed to.

Question put to House of Delegates: That the Bill be now read a second time.

Question agreed to (Progressive Federal Party dissenting).

The House of Assembly divided:

AYES—108: Alant, TG; Aucamp, JM; Badenhorst, CJW; Bartlett, GS; Bekker, HJ; Blanche, JPI; Bosman, JF; Botha, CJ v R; Botha, JCG; Botma, MC; Brazelie, JA; Breytenbach, WN; Camerer, SM; Chait, EJ; Christophers, D; Clase, PJ; Coetzer, PW; Cunningham, JH; De Beer, SJ; De Klerk, FW; De Villiers, DJ; Delport, JT; Dilley, LHM; Durr, KDS; Edwards, BV; Farrell, PJ; Fick, LH; Fourie, A; Geldenhuys, BL; Golden, SGA; Graaff, D de V; Grobler, ACAC; Grobler, PGW; Hattingh, CP; Heine, WJ; Heyns, JH; Hugo, PF; Hunter, JEL; Jager, R; Jooste, JA; Jordaan, AL; King, TJ; Koornhof, NJJvR; Kotze, GJ; Kriel, HJ; Kritzinger, WT; Kruger, TAP; Le Roux, DET; Lemmer, JJ; Ligthelm, CJ; Louw, EvdM; Louw, I; Louw, MH; Malherbe, GJ; Marais, PG; Marê, PL; Maree, JW; Matthee, JC; Matthee, PA; Mentz, JHW; Meyer, AT; Meyer, WD; Myburgh, GB; Nel, PJC; Niemann, JJ; Nothnagel, AE; Odendaal, WA; Olivier, PJS; Pretorius, JF; Pretorius, PH; Rabie, J; Radue, RJ; Redinger, RE; Retief, JL; Schoeman, RS; Schoeman, SJ; Schoeman, SJ; Schoeman, WJ; Schutte, DPA; Smit, FP; Smit, HA; Smith, HJ; Snyman, AJJ; Steyn, DW; Steyn, PT; Streicher, DM; Swanepoel, JJ; Swanepoel, KD; Swanepoel, PJ; Terblanche, AJWPS; Thompson, AG; Van Breda, A; Van Gend, DPdeK; Van Heerden, FJ; Van Niekerk, Al; Van Niekerk, WA; Van Rensburg, HMJ; Van Vuuren, LMJ; Van Wyk, JA; Van Zyl, JG; Van der Merwe, AS; Van der Merwe, CJ; Van de Vyver, JH; Van der Walt, AT; Veldman, MH; Venter, AA; Viljoen, GvN; Welgemoed, PJ.

NOES—34: Andrew, KM; Barnard, MS; Coetzee, HJ; Dalling, DJ; De Jager, CD; De Ville, JR; Derby-Lewis, CJ; Eglin, CW; Ellis, MJ; Gastrow, PHP; Gerber, A; Hartzenberg, F; Hulley, RR; Jacobs, SC; Langley, T; Le Roux, FJ; Lorimer, RJ; Mentz, MJ; Mulder, CP; Mulder, PWA; Nolte, DGH; Olivier, NJJ; Paulus, PJ; Pienaar, DS; Prinsloo, JJS; Schoeman, CB; Schwarz, HH; Snyman, WJ; Suzman, H; Uys, C; Van Gend, JBdeR; Van Wyk, WJD; Van der Merwe, SS; Walsh, JJ.

Question agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a second time.

The Joint Meeting adjourned at 15h19.

Mr Chairman, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, before the adjournment of the House yesterday, the hon member for Brits, who was the first speaker for the Official Opposition in this debate, began by saying that we in this House merely received the crumbs that fell from the table of the hon the Minister of Finance. He added that we in the Ministers’ Council of the House of Assembly did not have the necessary authority to negotiate a fair dispensation for the Whites.

I should just like to tell the hon member for Brits that this administration deals with a budget of approximately R6 billion. In the Administration: House of Assembly we have nearly 87 000 personnel, who serve the entire White population of South Africa, as well as other population groups in the country. Therefore, if that hon member thinks that what we receive are merely the crumbs from the table of the hon the Minister of Finance, I feel very sorry for him. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Brits went on to talk about the formula.

†The hon member for Yeoville also spoke of the formula and said we had said one thing last year and another thing this year. That is perfectly true as far as the formula is concerned. The fact of the matter, however, is that we had last year reached the point with the hon the Minister of Finance where we were negotiating what we thought was an acceptable formula. When the matter was referred to the legal advisers—that was, I think, in February last year—the legal advisers experienced difficulties with the formula which the hon the Minister of Finance had submitted to them. This gave rise to a wrangle which went on for some months. The legal advisers led the hon the Minister of Finance to understand that he could not continue along the way he had chosen.

In essence their submission was that in terms of the Constitution he could not come along with an enabling clause; he had to come along with the formula itself. Subsequently we had further talks with the hon the Minister of Finance. In January this year the Treasury officials of the Administration: House of Assembly and I met with the hon the Minister and put forward a specific proposal, which, we believed, would be acceptable to him. It was in fact acceptable to us. We hope he will also find it acceptable. We also hope it will be acceptable to this House. I hope therefore that by the time our Budget is prepared, in a few weeks’ time, I will be able to tell hon members more about this matter. I am hopeful that we will indeed see something happening in relation to this matter during the course of this year.

*I just want to say that we are just as eager as the hon member for Brits to wrap up this matter, so that we can have a fixed formula for our planning. We hope that this will still happen this year.

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon the Minister?

Not now, Sir. There will be enough time for questions later. This debate is to last the rest of this afternoon and tomorrow. Hon members will have sufficient time later to put forward their points of view.

Some hon members say we are going to get the crumbs from the table of the hon the Minister of Finance. They must realise, however, that, unlike them, we do not have an antagonistic relationship with the hon the Minister of Finance. We in this administration are part of the same Government in which the hon the Minister of Finance serves. Therefore there is nothing peculiar or co-incidental about it. As a matter of fact we happen to be members of the same party. We are also exponents of the same policy.

The winning party!

The winning party, of course! [Interjections.] Furthermore, we have a close relationship with each other—a relationship of co-operation. We do not have a hostile relationship with the hon the Minister of Finance.

Further I should like to tell hon members that we do not seek to bargain for more than our fair share in relation to the people for whom we are predominantly responsible. As far as we are concerned, we look at the interests of the nation as a whole and we do what is affordable, but we see to it that justice is done and that we get that which we regard as reasonable. We do not want more and we will not accept less than what we regard as reasonable. [Interjections.]

*Mr Chairman, that hon member spoke about clean administration. I shall reply to him in that regard in a moment.

†I want to say that I was talking to the hon member for Yeoville earlier about a quotation of the great Rabbi Hilel. He said: “If I am not for myself, who will be? But if I am only for myself, who am I?” I want to tell the hon members for Pinelands and Pinetown, who are ashamed of being White, ashamed of their White background and of the fact that we have a predominant interest here for White people as well, that it does not diminish one’s capacity to understand, love and contribute to one’s country as a whole if one loves and contributes to one’s group in particular. [Interjections.] Neither should there be a conflict between individual rights and group rights because group rights should enforce, endorse and support individual rights. Individual rights are essential if group rights are to have any meaning at all. My hon leader as Chairman of the Ministers’ Council recently alluded to that in his address after his election as leader of this party. [Interjections.]

*The hon member for Carletonville said: “I do not begrudge every people what is its own.” [Interjections.] “To each its own future, its own administration and so on.”

†This is easier said than done! That hon member reminds me of the saying that all Africans are equal but some Africans are more equal than other Africans. In that hon member’s book everybody is equal provided he has the total say over what is going on. The hon member wants to take power. That party wants to take power not because they want a better South Africa or because they want to build bridges, but because they want to flaunt their power, and they want to use power in such a way that it will be the exclusive preserve of the chosen few. [Interjections.] That is a recipe for disaster.

Many hon members referred to Boksburg in this debate. There is no question that we are not “Simon the pure”. There is no question that many of the things that were said were correct in terms of the policies of this Government and actions of the Government in the past. But Boksburg finally exposed the CP as a backwardlooking party. [Interjections.] Boksburg exposed the fact that, like Lot’s wife, one cannot look backwards. Boksburg was a watershed because it showed this Government’s intentions to go forward, to be forward-looking, and the intentions of the CP, which is backward-looking. That does not mean that we are not for the promotion of group rights. We are all for the promotion of group rights for the reasons I gave earlier.

That is what lies behind the fact that the Leader of the Official Opposition—unfortunately he cannot be here as he has another appointment—says that he wants to disarm Black soldiers in South Africa. The hon member has often been on record as saying that Black people must not carry arms.

*Only Whites may be armed! That is what the hon member said in the past. Boksburg is the reason for that!

†The hon member knows that the way in which he administers this country and the policies that he will foist on this country, in the unlikely event of his ever being elected to govern this country, would so fly in the face of the wishes of the people that he cannot risk the fact that those people be armed. [Interjections.] The people will be pointing the guns in the wrong direction, because they will be pointing the guns at him instead of at the enemy!

*Those hon members speak so easily about White South Africa, about the interests of the Whites in South Africa, and that Whites must be armed. I looked up a few facts. The fact of the matter is that last year 67% to 80% of the South African Defence Force and the South West Africa Territorial Force in South West Africa, were non-Whites. Between 67% and 80% of all the forces there, were non-White. Those are the people who have to defend White South Africa.

†According to my terminology they are protecting our country; according to the terminology of the CP they are protecting “Blank Suid-Afrika”. [Interjections.] If one takes our armed forces alone, one will find that 67% of the South African armed forces are non-White. At least 17% of the 67% are serving as combatants. Fifty percent of these so-called non-Whites are serving in supportive roles. We know that the CP wants to disarm the combatant 17%, because the hon member has been on record as saying that several times. Does he also want to disarm, fire or disengage the non-Whites who are in supportive roles—the stretcher-bearers, the cooks, the drivers; the other 50% of the armed forces? Must they also be fired, or is it all right for someone to risk his life by being strafed or bombed, as long as he cooks the dinner for the men who are going to war? He is good enough for that but he cannot hold a rifle. That he cannot do. [Interjections.] If that is so, the hon member must tell us where we are going to find people to replace these men and woman.

They are living in a dreamworld.

It reminds me very much of the fellow who said …

He is good enough to defend your country, but you are not prepared to give him the vote! [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Bethal cannot converse so loudly across the floor of the House. He must lower his voice and preferably make fewer interjections.

It reminds me of the story of the man who was told he could clean the church and polish the floors but if he was caught praying, he would be in trouble. This man can cook the army’s dinner, drive the trucks and expose himself to battle, but if he is caught with a rifle, he is in trouble. I say the CP are talking absolute nonsense.

The hon members of the CP think power comes from the barrel of a gun. They think it comes from the barrel of a gun, and that is why they only want to arm the Whites. They are absolutely wrong. Power does not come from the barrel of a gun and if hon members do not believe me, they can go and read what Mr Gorbachev says in Perestroika about power coming from the barrel of a gun. They can go and read what Chairman Deng said in Beijing the other day about the fact that it does not matter whether the cat is white or black, as long as it catches mice.

The fact of the matter is that unless a society is an effective society, and can rely on the collective efforts of its citizenry, be economically successful, has ultimately government by consent, has ultimately liberty for its citizenry under the law and has an effective free enterprise system with limited government involvement, it cannot afford armed forces. It is no good thinking that power comes from the barrel of a gun because it does not. In the first instance it comes from ability of a citizenry to cohere, from people having over-arching loyalty to their country, and from having a successful economy, where people want to and are able to defend that society. With the policy that those hon members espouse for our country, there is no way that that would be possible.

The hon member for Yeoville entered the debate. He was the only hon member who said anything meaningful in terms of this administration’s Vote. If the hon member for Yeoville would listen to me, I can reply to him, but if he is not interested in having answers to his questions I will not reply …

The fact is that the hon member for Yeoville said that he was concerned about the private schools, and he said that he was concerned because they were having a difficult time. I feel very strongly with him that we should help the private schools.

For ten years I was the “listening post of the Association of Private Schools in South Africa in this Parliament. [Interjections.] However, I would say to the hon member, and I took out some figures, that in 1987-88 we spent R29 million on subsidies to private schools. In 1988-89, this had grown to R34,549 million, or a 19,13% increase in the help to private schools. Those are subsidies that varied with a 19,13% increase from a roughly R29 million to just over R34 million. These private schools get subsidies of between 15% and 45% depending on what services they render.

In my view—and I am sympathetic towards private schools—if they received a subsidy of more than 45%, one wonders whether they would not be sacrificing their status as private schools because he who pays the piper, calls the tune. The fact is that if the Government gives them more than 51%, they could lose their independence and character.

May I ask the hon the Minister—and perhaps his colleague will assist him—what a private school does when salary increases are announced for public school staff and they have to compete and give the same salary increase? What do they do when they do not get the full subsidy? Increase it? [Interjections.]

The hon member can reply to that if he wants to. We will have time in this debate during the Second Reading. The subsidy of up to 45% that they get at the moment is all-inclusive of their total expenditure, and the fact of the matter is that I think it is very generous. If they go beyond that, they will lose their identity.

The hon member also expressed his concern for the plight of the aged. We share that concern. The hon member mentioned the case of an old lady being in a flat for 47 years. I was very touched by what he said and as matter of the fact my colleague the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing and I had a talk about it. We will look into the request that the hon member made. He has also discussed it with the hon the Minister.

If we look at the actual position at the moment we see that 60 000 sub-economic elderly persons are being cared for in subsidised old-age homes, departmental homes and private old-age homes and all make use of services in the service centres. As a matter of fact, I believe that we now have overtaken Holland and as a percentage of the White population more than 8% are now housed in assisted housing. It is the second highest in the world, if not the highest. One is compelled to draw the conclusion that it is perhaps too high and too much stress is being placed on institutional care. I am very sympathetic to what the hon member said and that is an Interdepartmental Committee of the Administration: House of Assembly that will investigate the position of the aged White population and hon members can be assured that everything possible will be done.

On the very that the hon member for Yeoville mentioned this particular problem, we had discussed it—that very morning—in the Ministers’ Council. As a matter of fact, if we look at the figures of expenditure on old-age care, we see that there was a 14% overall increase over the past 12 months. I can give a few figures: Expenditure on subsidised old-age homes grew from R96 million plus to more than R121 million. This is an increase of 25,7%. Contract houses on behalf of the department increased from more than R6 million to more than R7 million, which is a 17,18% increase. Expenditure on private welfare organisations increased from R5,7 million to R8,863 million. This is a 55% increase. The subsidies to social work posts increased by 19,5%. The figures reflect the care and concern …

These figures reflect the care and concern that this administration has for the aged.

*The hon member for Klip River sketched the history of Menlo Park, and I want to congratulate him, because he made a very interesting speech. †The hon member Dr De Beer made what I thought was a grossly unfair attack on the hon the Minister of Education and Development Aid. Frankly, I think it was bad manners in the sense that the hon member must have known that the hon the Minister was not due to speak in reply on that Vote. Common courtesy should have demanded that the hon leader of the PFP raise the issue at a more suitable and appropriate time.

I should nevertheless like to say something in defence of my colleague. There were indeed misdemeanours in that hon Minister’s department, which were withheld from and unknown to him, but to my certain knowledge he lost no time, as soon as he became aware of those misdemeanours, in opening the matter and co-operating with the Auditor-General to the fullest possible extent. He investigated the matter fully and continues to do so, and will cut to the bone if necessary to make sure that that Ministry is rid of any miscreants. [Interjections.] I have absolute confidence in his ability and in the fact that he will do so.

*The hon member for Fauresmith also made an interesting speech about Boksburg.

The hon the Minister of Education and Culture said that we would build the future on co-operation between the groups and people of South Africa. I agree wholeheartedly that that is the solution for our country.

†I will not reply to the hon member for Houghton because her contribution too was completely out of character with this debate. She started speaking about detainees.

[Inaudible.]

The hon the Minister of Law and Order was not scheduled to speak, and he is the natural person to respond to her.

I gave him due warning.

We have had so many opportunities to discuss these matters. [Interjections.] They should be discussed at more appropriate times.

[Inaudible.]

The hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing discussed the RSCs. He indicated the great advantages of the system—it is now getting through to the members of the CP—and told such a story that one could see that the CP were beginning to feel uncomfortable because they realised that the Government’s policy was working, and of course that does not suit them. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Carletonville made a very interesting speech. He said that one could easily distinguish the difference between White money, Black money, Coloured money and Indian money with the use of computers, and that it was therefore possible for us to separate the taxes and so on. I know that the hon member is an intelligent man, and I do not know how he can make such statements. Let us look at the example of a mealie farmer’s farm. The mealie farmer lives in Klerksdorp and goes to the farm every week. There are 50 people working on the farm who produce mealies, drive the tractors and do the work. The mealie-meal is produced and sold to the Blacks. Whose money is it now? Is it White money? At what stage does the White money become Coloured money? When that farmer pays his foreman his salary, surely the White money passes into the hands of this foreman or manager. At what point does it become Black money? [Interjections.] This is so obviously nonsense. Hon members must really stop this. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Minister a question?

No, Sir, I am not prepared to answer a question, because I have very little time left.

†The hon member for Pietermaritzburg South made a very interesting speech. He told us about the greater efficiencies in the teaching profession. He spoke as an expert and made a very important contribution.

The hon member for Claremont gave us his usual contribution, his weekly column for Pravda. This emotive propaganda-laden speech was clearly meant more for the overseas media than for our country.

I often feel, when I see him, that he is in South Africa, but not of South Africa; he is in this House, but not of this House at all.

The hon the member for Pinelands and the hon the member for Pinetown are very ashamed of the fact that they can speak on behalf of the White group, so they got involved with squatters. It was an inappropriate debate for them to discuss this issue.

*I thank all the hon members who participated in this debate. It was an interesting debate. To those hon members to whom I could not reply, I apologise, but we shall have time for further discussion this afternoon and tomorrow.

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Bill be now read a first time.

Division demanded.

Declarations of vote:

Mr Chairman, the CP does not see its way clear to supporting the Part Appropriation Bill (House of Assembly) for the following reasons inter alia.

Firstly, the Government’s policy of power-sharing necessarily results in State revenue having to be redistributed numerically among the various peoples in South Africa. All income is deposited in one Treasury without taking cognisance of the contributions of each people, and redistributed according to numbers and need.

Secondly, the own affairs budget for Whites does not reflect the contribution which they make in the form of personal tax, economic activity, initiative and productivity in the interests of South Africa. Pensions for the aged for example do not take the fact into account that they come from a community which contributes more than 90% of personal income tax to the Treasury. This systematic impoverishment of Whites for the benefit of communities which do not make nearly the same contribution to State revenue is unjust and therefore unacceptable.

Thirdly, large amounts from the own affairs budget which is supposedly intended exclusively for use in the interests of Whites are applied for the benefit of those of colour. So for instance the thousands of students who study at White universities and technikons are financed from the White own affairs budget.

A few years ago more than 25% of all students at universities financed from the White own affairs budget were non-White. Strictly speaking therefore there is no budget of their own for Whites which is applied exclusively for their benefit. A people which attaches value to its right to self-determination cannot permit its budget to be dependent upon the charity, or lack of it, of other people. Consequently the CP does not support the Bill.

Mr Chairman, the PFPwill vote against the Part Appropriation Bill for the following reasons. Firstly, the concept of general and own affairs as applied by the Government, pursuant to existing legislation is contrary to the precepts of good government, excludes the major portion of the population and results in unnecessary duplication and wastage of taxpayers’ money.

Secondly, inadequate attention has been paid to hospital services and in particular to the shortages of staff in many hospitals. The level of remuneration of nurses is such that South Africa will increasingly suffer greater and greater shortages in this profession. The position of and the utilisation of the Johannesburg General Hospital is a matter that needs extremely urgent attention.

Thirdly, the increasing number of elderly people in need of assistance is not being adequately catered for and the urgent humanitarian action needed is not forthcoming in sufficient measure.

Fourthly, the formulae for the allocation of funds for services to be provided have, despite undertakings, not been finalized and/or have not been published. For these reasons we will vote against this Bill.

Mr Chairman, as we are satisfied that the amount which has been requested is fair and that the funds will be applied for the purposes for which they are required, and, as not a single argument has been put forward in this debate as to why the legislation should not have our support, we on this side support the Bill.

The House divided:

AYES—110: Alant, T G; Aucamp, J M; Badenhorst, C J W; Badenhorst, P J; Bartlett, G S; Bekker, H J; Bosman, J F; Botha, C J van R; Botma, M C; Brazelie, J A; Breytenbach, W N; Camerer, S M; Chait, E J; Christophers, D; Clase, P J; Coetzer, P W; Cunningham, J H; De Beer, S J; De Klerk, F W; Delport, J T; De Villiers, D J; Dilley, L H M; Durr, K D S; Edwards, B V; Farrell, P J; Fick, L H; Fismer, C L; Fourie, A; Geldenhuys, B L; Golden, S G A; Graaff, D de V; Grobler, A C A C; Grobler, P G W; Hattingh, C P; Heine, W J; Heyns, J H; Hugo, P F; Hunter, J E L; Jager, R; Jooste, J A; King, T J; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kotzê, G J; Kriel, H J; Kritzinger, W T; Kruger, T A P; Lemmer, J J; Le Roux, D E T; Ligthelm, C J; Louw, E v d M; Louw, I; Louw, M H; Malherbe, G J; Marais, G; Marais, P G; Marê, P L; Maree, J W; Matthee, J C; Matthee, P A; Mentz, J H W; Meyer, A T; Myburgh, G B; Nel, P J C; Niemann, J J; Nothnagel, A E; Odendaal, W A; Olivier, P J S; Pretorius, J F; Pretorius, P H; Rabie, J; Radue, R J; Redinger, R E; Retief, J L; Schoeman, R S; Schoeman, S J (Walmer); Schoeman, W J; Schutte, D P A; Smit, F P; Smith, H J; Snyman, A J J; Steyn, P T; Streicher, D M; Swanepoel, J J; Swanepoel, K D; Swanepoel, P J; Terblanche, A J W P S; Van Breda, A; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Walt, A T; Van Deventer, F J; Van de Vyver, J H; Van Gend, D P de K; Van Heerden, F J; Van Niekerk, A I; Van Niekerk, W A; Van Rensburg, H M J; Van Vuuren, L M J; Van Wyk, J A; Van Zyl, J G; Veldman, M H; Venter, A A; Viljoen, G v N; Welgemoed, P J; Wentzel, J J G.

Tellers: Blanche, J P I; Jordaan, A L; Meyer, W D; Schoeman, S J (Sunnyside); Smit, H A; Thompson, A G.

NOES—35: Andrew, K M; Barnard, M S; Coetzee, H J; Dalling, D J; De Beer, Z J; De Jager, C D; De Ville, J R; Derby-Lewis, C J; Eglin, C W; Gastrow, P H P; Gerber, A; Hardingham, R W; Hartzenberg, F; Hulley, R R; Jacobs, S C; Langley, T; Lorimer, R J; Malcomess, D J N; Mentz, M J; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nolte, D G H; Paulus, P J; Pienaar, D S; Prinsloo, J J S; Schoeman, C B; Schwarz, H H; Suzman, H; Uys, C; Van der Merwe, S S; Van Gend, J B de R; Van Wyk, W JD; Walsh, J J.

Tellers: Le Roux, F J; Snyman, W J.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a first time.

Second Reading debate

Mr Chairman, right at the beginning, in fact while the hon the Minister was still delivering his Budget Speech and became slightly confused when hon members of the PFP drew his attention to the fact that it sounded as if he was repeating the speech he made last year, he gave us the impression, by his reaction, that he did not, in fact, want a debate in this particular case. He implied that a debate was actually unnecessary.

However, a debate did take place and I want to refer, in particular, to the repeated attacks on the CP as a result of decisions made by CP-controlled town councils. I think the time has now come for those people who are making these attacks, to tell us whether they stand by the manifesto which the NP distributed before the municipal elections, or whether they reject it.

As hon members know, the hon the Minister says here that separate public amenities, wherever possible, are in line with NP policy. The hon members say that is their policy. They go further in the manifesto and say that local authorities themselves must decide whether amenities will be open or closed. Is that still the NP’s policy?

[Interjections.] If so, surely those CP-controlled town councils are implementing the NP’s policy.

If they then want to crucify us because we are reserving public amenities for the use of Whites, then we will make no bones about telling them that they are being immoral if they say that their policy is one of separate public amenities for Whites. This simply cannot be tolerated any longer. The hon members of the NP have not replied to that at all. As long as the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act remains on the Statute Books, they do not have the moral right to point a finger at other people who are implementing the provisions of that Act.

I now come to another unpleasant matter. The hon the leader of the PFP referred to it yesterday, and I also want to refer to the hon the Minister of Education and Development Aid. I have a great deal of respect for the hon the Minister, who was a student contemporary of mine and a renowned classicist. I do not believe that he can be equalled in that regard in South Africa, at least not to my knowledge. He is a renowned academic for whom we had great appreciation and who made his mark in South Africa in that area, and I am saying that unequivocally. But, last year when the Fourie matter came to the fore, we warned the hon the Minister. I referred to this in a previous debate and there was no reaction at all to what I said. We warned that something would have to be done. After the hon the Minister’s announcement during the debate on the Additional Appropriation Bill in the other House, that he had to suspend a further eight or ten officials, I read in The Citizen today that Maj Kidson of the commercial branch of the SAP in Pretoria had said that what they were investigating now, was just the tip of the iceberg. If that is just the tip of the iceberg, then things have gone too far.

The medical profession has a saying to the effect that desperate diseases require desperate remedies. With all due respect, I want to tell the hon the Minister that he should apply desperate remedies. I want to make a friendly suggestion to the hon the Minister that he return to the academic world where he belongs. The hon the Minister must return to the area of life in which he can make a real contribution to our country.

My time has almost expired, but when I read the contents of a press release in the newspapers yesterday and this morning which was issued by the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning and which coincided with the announcement of the members of the so-called Free Settlement Board or whatever it is called …

The grey areas board!

When I read in the Press what the hon the Minister was supposed to have said, and there was his statement, I could not believe that he had been correctly reported. When I read it again this morning in The Citizen, I had to make enquiries and I phoned the hon the Minister’s office and asked them to please send me the correct version. Well, for once the Press reported the hon the Minister correctly. What did the hon the Minister say?

The hon the Minister went further:

I want to concede at once that if words were meant to obscure ideas, the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning must be the most brilliant exponent of language usage in our country. However, this time he spoke quite clearly and no one could misunderstand him. What was the hon the Minister announcing here as the present NP policy? He said that the individual had the right to decide in which group he wanted to exercise his political rights. If Afrikaans has any meaning at all, that is what the hon the Minister said. In lay terms, the statement of the hon the Minister means that if a Black man says that he wants to exercise his political rights along with the Whites, he would have to be on the same voters’ roll. [Interjections.] That is what it says here. He said that he assured the individual that as an individual he had the choice and the right to exercise that choice within any group in which he wanted to exercise his political rights. [Interjections.] If my conclusion is incorrect, I want to repeat that in that case, the hon the Minister is the best exponent of the use of language in order to obscure the meaning of words. We, as well as the voters, would like the hon the Minister to clarify this. He said here that the individual, and not the group, had the choice. What, then, is the real standpoint of the NP? [Interjections.] Things are getting funnier and funnier!

In the free settlement areas that are going to be created, what are they going to do with the Whites who no longer want to stay in those areas, and who cannot afford alternative residence? We want to ask the hon the Minister that. The time has come in this country to stop playing with words. [Interjections.] We are asking the NP where they are taking South Africa. We are not the only ones who are asking that. The Coloured people, the Black people and the NP members are asking that. [Interjections.]

There is no point in accusing other people of dishonesty and impracticality if the NP itself is not in a position to say quite clearly where they are heading with regard to South Africa. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I am enormously pleased that the hon member for Barberton used words in conclusion which more or less come down to the fact that, if a person wants to be honest with one’s voters, one’s policy must be spelt out clearly. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Barberton must be the foremost exponent of the economic policy of the CP. I want to ask him the same question relating to the economic sphere as he has just put to the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning on the constitutional future of South Africa. Where is the CF heading with the Whites and the economy of South Africa? [Interjections.] We are dealing with White own affairs here. We have a budget before us which must justify an economic discussion. Consequently it is fair to ask where the CP policy is taking or will take South Africa if the improbable should occur and the CP come to power.

When I mentioned in a previous debate that the hon member for Barberton had stated that there would be a joint economy, he objected strongly to this and denied that he had ever said so; he had supposedly merely said that there would be cooperation in the economic sphere.

But that is exactly what I said!

All right. When I wanted him to tell me what this co-operation would mean, however, he pointed to our agreements with neighbouring countries.

When did you ask me that?

I asked the hon member this during his speech in the joint meeting—in the joint debate which we conducted there.

One would probably like to know what this means in the light of South Africa’s sustained economic growth. After all, this is a question which voters ask. You see, Sir, application of CP policy at microlevel in places like Boksburg did not make a good impression economically at all. To say the least, it did not impress in the slightest. Now the question that has to be put is how it will look at national level. How will it look at macrolevel? You see, Sir, it would appear that the CP does not measure the success of its economic policy against its economic results but only against the decrease in numbers of non-Whites present in public parks and against the decreased number of non-Whites making use of public facilities. That is obviously the yardstick of CP policy and that must probably also determine economic policy.

We are concerned about people’s community life!

If that is not the case, I do not know how one makes this tally. When one brings about that type of division and retrogresses economically, how can this be to the benefit of Whites?

Another question which a person puts is the following. How is our economic growth to be sustained by the deconcentration of people? If they are not going to be deconcentrated, how will they be separated in the constitutional sphere?

Then what about decentralisation?

How is an integrated economy to be disentangled without causing harm to that economy? Those are the types of questions to which voters would like an answer. We are faced with a general election. [Interjections.] Surely that is no secret.

When?

A person would expect that we would receive a blueprint from the CP which would indicate how they intended doing things in the economic sphere. Nevertheless we get nothing of the kind. [Interjections.] We get absolutely nothing of the kind. We receive no indication of how their constitutional and economic planning will complement each other. As this plan is not known to us, we have to accept that this is also one of the plans which will be kept secret until after the election. [Interjections.]

Recently, during the campaign before the municipal elections, the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition addressed a public meeting at Olifantshoek in my constituency. A tape recording of his speech was made there and also of the questions which were put to him during question time. One of the questions put to him was the following. “If the CP comes to power,” the questioner wanted to know, “will they try to consult with the Coloureds in order to attain their object,” to which the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition replied, “Yes, we shall hold discussions.” When the question was subsequently put to him on what would happen if they reached deadlock, and how matters would then be handled, do you know, Sir, what the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition’s intelligent reply to this was? He said: “That is our secret.” [Interjections.] Yes, hon members will not believe this; what is more, the audience applauded him for it. [Interjections.]

What are you going to do?

We are engaged in government! What would have happened if we were not governing? Every day the CP criticises the policy which the NP is applying. If we did not have that policy, they would have nothing to talk about because they do not have a policy of their own to discuss! [Interjections.]

Speaking about a homeland, I am one of the fortunate people who live in Prof Boshoffs White homeland. [Interjections.] All the CP representatives, the entire caucus, live in the “Bontland”. [Interjections.]

An election cannot solve anything! One cannot only sit and dream about these matters. People have to be presented with plans and be told that we intend doing this or that so that they know what direction will be taken.

Boshoff is a man!

But it seems to me as if the CP wants to keep on dreaming about this matter. [Interjections.] They want to apply the old proverb in a slightly modified form: “It is a great life if you don’t waken!” [Interjections.]

May I tell the hon member for Lichtenburg that these are underhand politics because he has just made that interjection. These are underhand politics and, just like smoking on the sly, one is caught out at some time or other even if one does it in the toilet. [Interjections.]

The richest material this country possesses is not its mineral resources; its richest material is its human material and our future riches and prosperity will depend on how much of and how far our people’s potential can be developed in this country. [Interjections.] We must be prepared to do this and we must permit the economy to take its course and continue as we are doing at present because it has grown over the past number of years in spite of influx control, pass laws and decentralisation because people go to the growth points as there is work, a living and income for them there. If the CP cannot give us a blueprint before this election of how their economic policy for South Africa will look, they are deceiving voters with a type of illusion which can never be put into practice. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I do not propose to deal with the issue of the dispute over economic policy between the CP and NP. I stand here with a Bill in my hand which was introduced into the United States Congress on 24 January 1989 …

Order! The hon members are conversing a little too loudly. The hon member may proceed.

It was introduced by Messrs Leland and Dellums in the United States Congress, HR 636, and is another measure against South Africa. I would like to ask the assistance of the hon members of this House as to how I am to answer certain questions when I go there in order to oppose anti-South African legislation. How do I deal with a situation that in a town in South Africa a Black may walk in the street but he may not go into a park? He may go into a shop but he may not go into a library. He may buy the goods but he may not go to the lake. How does one answer those questions when one is fighting against people who want to do South Africa harm? How does one answer those questions? I want to hear the answers from the people in this House as to how they will answer those questions in the United States.

I must say to hon members that this is a matter which pertains to this Vote that we are dealing with because local government pertaining to Whites is a matter of own affairs. The Reservation of Separate Amenities Act is a general law. If a White local authority has facilities, they fall under the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing in this House.

Under these circumstances the issue arises concerning the closing of facilities which have been open in the past, and we have been debating this for some time now. The criticism against the CP about what has happened, has been heard from all sides of the House. This is actually a matter for the Department of Local Government of the own affairs administration in the House of Assembly.

I want pertinently to raise the fact that it is one thing to criticise and it is another to attack. The reality is that everyone has known where the CP stands on this issue. Whatever one says about them, they made it very clear where they stood before the municipal elections. They said it.

The issue is whether it is enough to criticise them or does one do something about it? We in these benches can only criticise because we have no power. However, the NP and its leader sitting there, have more than the ability to criticise. They have the ability to act. The question is whether the NP is only going to criticise the CP or whether it is going to act. That is the fundamental issue.

I have to ask which of a number of alternatives the NP is actually going to use. In South Africa we have the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act. Before this Act became law, the common law of South Africa was that if facilities could not be equal one could not separate them. That was upheld by the Appellate Division. That is why this Act was introduced. If we repeal this Act, it is still open to Boksburg to provide equal facilities but if they cannot, they cannot separate and exclude.

The challenge that I issue is: Will they actually repeal the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act? Let them put their money where their mouth is. They should not only criticise but they should get up and repeal the Act.

What does the national leader of the NP have to say?

If that is not what they intend to do, there is another remedy. Why do we not introduce a law in this House in terms of which a facility that has once been opened, cannot be closed? To us that is very much a second prize. That is not what we in these benches want but why do they not do that? That is what they have been saying; every one of them has gone across the country and said that once a facility is open it should not be closed. If that is what they mean, they should introduce that law. There is another remedy. Bylaws need the consent of the authorities when they are changed. Can I get an undertaking that bylaws will not be approved if they are to be of a racially discriminatory nature? The power rests with the governing party, namely the NP. It is not enough to criticise. One also has to act and show that the power that one has is of a meaningful nature.

That is the challenge that arises in this House because it is an own affairs matter. The leader of the NP is sitting there and the debate has to be dealt with. I invite him to come into this debate to tell us where he stands, whether he will act or whether we are going to enter an election campaign and criticise the CP and have him join in the chorus in criticising them. We are helpless because we are not in power. They are in power. The test is what they are going to do about it. That is the challenge I issue to the NP today.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Yeoville has raised serious questions here. He has issued challenges. He feels very strongly on this matter. I certainly will not be the one to respond from this side of the House and of that hon members may be sure. [Interjections.] However, that there will be a considered and responsible response is also equally sure.

On our side we have a few leaders and not a lot of leaders.

You do not know what your party’s policy is. [Interjections.]

In the course of this debate on this measure so far much attention has been given to the CP.

Order! The Chair has difficulty in hearing the hon member. There is too much noise. The hon member may proceed.

Much attention has been given to the CP by hon members on this side of the House. I believe the hon the Minister of the Budget and Works and the hon member for Kuruman dealt most effectively with the idle promises and flights of fancy which that party offers this country instead of policy. As a Natalian I would like to give the CP just one word of advice. Apparently they now have opened an office of their party in Durban of all places. They should rather save themselves the rental and pack up and leave because Natal does not need anything which the CP has to offer. [Interjections.] The thrashing that they were given throughout Natal in the municipal elections in October last year, gives ample proof of my contention. In fact, they did not even come anywhere near gaining control of a single local authority in the entire Natal.

Events in Natal to the left of the NP are also worthy of comment because it is without doubt that Natal has been selected as one of the prime targets of the still to be formed so-called Democratic Party.

Are you worried about your seat?

I must tell hon members of this House that the members of this opportunistic, unwieldy, political conglomerate-to-be are already watching one another very carefully and with great suspicion, and I would like to submit that they have every reason to be suspicious and for being careful.

Everybody wants to stand in Umhlanga.

I will give one or two reasons. Firstly, even now that peace has broken out in the ranks of the so-called New Left, the PFP is hard at registering voters in the constituency of the NDM’s strongman in Natal, Mr Peter Gastrow. [Interjections.] They do not even trust him with an elementary thing like registering voters.

We work together. [Interjections.]

Secondly, at the same time the IP which already claims to have 21% of electoral support in Natal and says this makes it the second biggest party in that province, has formed two of its first branches in the constituency of the hon leader of the PFP in Natal, Mr Roger Burrows, the hon member for Pinetown, and the PFP MP for Durban North, Mr Mike Ellis. So hon members can see that if ever there was a pre-emptive strike against two soft targets … [Interjections.] … this was it.

What is going on in your seat?

The really bad news for the PFP is that not even the old PFP warhorse, the hon member for Berea, is safe. I say this because it is an open secret that the ambitious former mayor of Durban, Mr Henry Klotz who is now a leading light in the IP, and his party have set their sights on this jewel in the crown of the PFP. That will also be lost.

The hon member for Constantia will have to commiserate with the hon member for Berea in due course. [Interjections.]

Has he been expelled from the NP?

Yes, he was expelled from the NP.

Why? [Interjections.]

Because there is discipline in the NP.

In fact, so great is the rampant mutual distrust between the PFP, the NDM and the IP in Natal that although they have already appointed two steering committees these are both leaderless because neither has as yet appointed a chairman for fear of the wrong party getting control. [Interjections.] As a safety mechanism, according to the Daily News, they actually now are considering a rotating chairman system, and I quote: “… to minimise possible points of friction between the three parties.”

Perhaps the fact that the new party has so many rotating leaders explains why it appears to be going in ever diminishing circles instead of offering any prospect of the brave new world that its resident and advisory visionaries are always talking about. [Interjections.]

There is also the strong likelihood of a hard-fought struggle for the Natal leadership of the Democratic Party among the hon member for Durban Central—I see he is going pale—the hon member for Pinetown and of course Mr Klotz. I have an idea that the voters of Natal are not going to be impressed by this sort of sniping and backbiting which has already emerged in the ranks of the new left in our province. I have quite a thick file on what I mean when I talk about sniping. [Interjections.] Instead I believe that the voters of Natal will place their faith in the NP in unprecedented numbers, just as they did on 6 May 1987. [Interjections.]

In conclusion, I would like to refer to a much more positive subject which is of great importance to every single Natalian, and that is the question of the relationship between central Government and the government of KwaZulu. To us in Natal, the nature and the quality of our relationship with the Zulu nation is of tremendous importance.

That is why you have rotating leaders!

We do not have rotating leaders.

What about the provincial thing?

Very few people in Natal did not greet with enthusiasm the recent news of the formation of a joint committee between central Government and the government of KwaZulu. The agreement reached between the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning and Chief Minister Buthelezi in Durban in January this year gave recognition to the fact that negotiations are an urgent necessity in solving the political problems in the RS A, but they also acknowledged the fact that there are obstacles impeding the process of negotiation. [Interjections.] The committee, which will be led on the South African side by the hon the Minister of Home Affairs and on the KwaZulu side by Dr Oscar Dhlomo, is facing a truly daunting task, namely to identify and address these obstacles as well as to formulate principles on which there is common ground.

The members of this committee, who will meet for the first time next week, deserve good wishes and support for their efforts from all South Africans of good will.

Today we are debating a White own-affairs budgetary measure, but I believe that if we take a narrow selfish view of own affairs, we will find our house is built on sand. If, however, we acknowledge the needs and the reasonable aspirations of all others in our country, we will really have a chance of maintaining that which is justifiably and rightfully ours. I am convinced that this is the spirit in which the NP approaches any negotiations, that is in a spirit of give and take. I have pleasure in supporting the Bill.

Debate interrupted.

Mr Chairman, at the outset I would like to thank the various hon members who participated in yesterday’s debate for their contributions and for the good wishes they expressed for the speedy recovery of the hon the Minister of the Budget. I also wish to express my gratitude to all those hon members who thanked the officials of the department for the valuable role that they play.

The accolades that I received from the hon opposition members for a job well done are highly appreciated, though it leaves me in a quandary about the recent vote of no confidence in the Ministers’ Council.

*It is clear that we have people in the opposition ranks who blow hot and cold and that is why the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition is not here today. He introduced a motion of no confidence in the Ministers’ Council. I am pleased, however, that hon members of the Official Opposition expressed their gratitude for what is done by this same Ministers’ Council.

†I think I should once again explain to this House what this Part Appropriation Bill is all about. The whole object of the Bill is to ensure that this House approves the necessary moneys to enable the Administration: House of Representatives to fulfil its obligations until the Appropriation Act, 1989, has been promulgated. This, in fact, means that the Administration will in the meantime have funds available to provide education to our children and students, to render health services to the community, to pay old age pensions and allowances, to pay the salaries of our officials etc. Hon members can therefore rest assured that most of the problems and fears expressed during the debate will be avoided if the Bill is accepted.

This Bill must not be seen, however, as an opportunity to negotiate for more money as the Part Appropriation Act shall cease to have effect at the commencement of the Appropriation Act, 1989.

*I now come back to the hon members who took part in yesterday’s debate. I should like to agree with the hon member for Mamre’s point of view with regard to attitudes. We should like to assist in improving attitudes in South Africa. In fact, it was the LP that said we should like to see a renaissance of attitudes in South Africa. We need an attitudinal renaissance in this country. I want to agree with the hon member and thank him very much for emphasising this great ideal or dream of the LP once again yesterday.

I am also pleased that he expressed his thanks to the Department of Health Services and Welfare for the assistance granted to the poor. Assistance to unemployed people amounted to R4 300 000 in 1987-88 whereas R17 million has been voted for this purpose during the present financial year.

In this process we assisted 13 659 unemployed people, who should be breadwinners. I want those who proclaim in the newspapers that we do not take care of our poor do nothing about the unemployment situation to take cognisance of this. I want to thank the hon member for raising this question and for expression his gratitude to this department.

I now want to refer to the hon member for Esselen Park. He referred to the export of deciduous fruit and spoke about the catastrophic consequences an export boycott would have for our people. I am just as concerned as the hon member and I am of the opinion that the Government and the Deciduous Fruit Board must enquire into the whole export question timeously and must investigate alternative export possibilities. When the hon member for Esselen Park was still a member of the LP, he proclaimed at the top of his voice that we should investigate the causes of this kind of reaction. Yesterday, however, he neglected to say what had caused the reaction of the people in England.

We on this side of the House say that the NP Government’s apartheid policy caused the action of the people in England. I am grateful that in Ceres, Stellenbosch, Paarl and other places, people’s needs, such as their pensions, salaries and housing, are taken care of. I have in my possession, however, a list that I received from the Department of National Health and Population Development. I am not going to mention the towns’ names, but I am going to give hon members certain figures. The income of the workers—the breadwinners—in one district where deciduous fruit is cultivated is R59 per month. [Interjections.] In another area which cultivates export grapes, workers earn R41 per month. In another area where pears, apples and apricots are cultivated for export purposes, the workers earn R41 per month. Hon members must not think that this is not known abroad. We must do something positive about the situation. Hon members in this House who represent those people must raise objections to this. I expect the hon member for Esselen Park to do so too, because he represents many of those people. [Interjections.]

Order! Can the hon the Minister please help me? Surely the districts he was referring to are in the Cape Province?

Mr Chairman, that is correct; they are in the Cape Province and not in the Orange Free State. [Interjections.] The towns are in the Boland.

The hon member for Esselen Park also referred to the question of the two hostels in Touws River and Ashton which are empty. This happened because a freeze on personnel was announced in terms of a Cabinet decision. This was not the fault of the Labour Party; it was a Cabinet decision. New posts can be created only when other posts in the Administration are abolished. The matter is receiving attention at present, and we shall resolve the problem on 1 April and appoint people in the above-mentioned hostels.

In April?

Yes, in April.

In the second place I want to tell the hon member for Eldorado Park that an envisaged health clinic or a health centre in Eldorado Park is high on the priority list of the department in question and we shall furnish the hon member with the necessary information soon.

The hon members for Griqualand West and Vredendal touched upon very valid aspects. One of them was the unutilised White schools and hostels in their constituencies. While we are at present hard at work striving for one South African nationhood it is inconceivable, and exceeds all bounds of reason, that there should still be unutilised educational institutions today while an extremely urgent need for those facilities exists in an adjoining community.

The making available of empty so-called White schools is a matter which will also have to be negotiated with the hon the Minister of Education and Culture in the House of Assembly, but it must be mentioned that the facilities are not going to be placed at the disposal of our administration free of charge.

The reasonable and fair market value of the buildings will have to be paid to the Administration: House of Assembly in cases where the facilities can in fact be transferred, but we shall have to discuss the matter with the Minister concerned. We shall negotiate with him, because it is surely a waste of money if one has to build a new school in a so-called adjoining Coloured area while there are empty buildings in the so-called White areas in small towns such as Uniondale, Niewoudtville or Strydenburg, right next door. Surely we are wasting money, and we already have a serious shortage of money. We shall have to give attention to this matter.

I just want to mention to hon members that an amount of R16 828 000 was spent on the transportation of school-going children in 1987-88, and the amount this year was R18 384 000.1 have in mind a little place like Uniondale where there is a high school in the town but people have to travel many kilometres and have to be conveyed by bus in order to attend a Coloured high school. We shall definitely have to work on this problem.

I want to tell the hon member for Heideveld that he need not come here and teach us about poverty. This party, the governing party in this House, has to this day gone out of its way—and we still have a lot of hard work to do—to do everything in our power to improve and enhance the quality of life of our people. When one sees what a great difference there is between last year’s and this year’s Part Appropriation, hon members will agree with us that the Ministers’ Council of the LP is constructively engaged in looking after the poor people in our community. [Interjections.]

†The hon member for Silvertown correctly said that the doors of the hon Minister’s office are always open. I wish to verify this by referring to the great number of interviews that are conducted by various Ministers as well as the large volume of correspondence that is dealt with every day.

With further reference to the hon member for Silvertown I wish to agree with him that we, the Ministers, must continue to negotiate for more funds in order to satisfy our growing needs.

However, a great deal of responsibility also rests on the shoulders of the community and their elected representatives to identify the needs and to make valid contributions to satisfy them.

*The warning I want to sound is that we must not be regarded as people who merely want to confront the hon the Minister of Finance. An ugly thing has cropped up now on the Official Opposition side. They regard us merely as people who confront and want to quarrel with the Ministers. It is also being said that we are constantly engaged in conflict. That is not true. I can tell those hon members that we do express our displeasure; we tell the Ministers loudly and clearly what our needs are. We are not afraid to tell a Minister that we will not rest until we get what we are asking for. [Interjections.]

I can only thank the hon member for Matroosfontein for his support. But I want to ask him again why he did not support us during the no-confidence debate. He made a wonderful contribution; he delivered my speech all over again and emphasised all the points he thought were important. But I want to ask him why, if he supports one Minister, he then comes forward with a motion of no confidence in the Ministers’ Council, because surely I am part of the Ministers’ Council.

I want to tell the hon member for Grassy Park that the following amounts for current and capital expenditure for the University of the Western Cape were received from the Exchequer. In 1988 an amount of R53 182 000 and last year—the 1988-89 financial year—R55 460 000 was spent on this university. The bursary fees for the 1987-88 financial year amounted to R22 27 000, while those for the 1988-89 financial year totalled R30 712 000.

We as representatives of the population must now tell those in our constituencies who receive bursaries that they must not waste that money by using it incorrectly. Ask them to study as hard as possible. We cannot afford to forfeit millions of rands.

I want to tell the hon member for Vredendal that the cases in which parents are receiving boarding fees are being investigated. He must bring specific cases to the attention of the Administration. We give him the assurance that we shall go into these matters at once. However, I want to point out to all the hon members that we have heard, and written representations were submitted to us, that some of the parents receiving those hostel fees did not always look after the children who were boarding with them. I want to ask hon members to look into this.

The State provides the money, but it must not be wasted. It must be used for the purpose for which it was allocated. As Minister of Health Services and Welfare it is a matter of concern to me that children should eat correctly. I also want to tell the hon member that the housing aspects will be dealt with by my colleague, the hon the Minister of Local Administration, Housing and Agriculture, when he has something to say about the private sector that must undertake to build houses.

The hon the member for Dysselsdorp referred to the problem of unemployment, and I should like to congratulate him on the training centre that has been built there. We must not simply wait for the State to do things; we must display initiative ourselves, but I nevertheless want to congratulate the hon member. I agree with him that everyone in South Africa should share in the prosperity of this country. However, I also want to bring the amounts that have been voted for job creation projects to his attention. In the 1987-88 financial year an amount of R7 million was voted for those job creation projects, and in the 1988-89 financial year that amount was increased to R10 800 000. We must congratulate the hon the Minister responsible for those projects on having gone out of his way to help our people. This party cares! [Interjections.]

As regards the confirmation of the trial appointment of security officers at the Mrester school, there are three persons whose appointments have not yet been confirmed. The one official’s term reports got lost in the post. This is receiving our urgent attention. I shall discuss the second official personally with the hon member, because I do not want to disclose this information in the House. The third official’s trial appointment was confirmed today. The hon member can therefore convey it to the official concerned. [Interjections.]

I now come to the hon member for Southern Free State. As regards Zastron no progress can be made with township development because the area has not been proclaimed yet. As regards Luckhoff, the Department of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture has already built 21 houses after the flood damage caused in 1988, and a further 17 houses will be built in the new township. The question of group areas must also receive attention there again. We shall nevertheless do everything in our power to see to it that we really help those people who need help.

In conclusion I want to announce what was decided the day before yesterday in the Ministers’ Council. During an ordinary meeting the Ministers’ Council of the House of Representatives accepted a new strategic policy for the Department of Health Services and Welfare. The main objective of the department remains one of upliftment of the quality of life of the community and the extremely important task of promoting the health of the community, which includes their physical, mental, social and environmental health. The Ministers’ Council and the department are responsible for determining the needs, funding, evaluation and planning, as well as determining the policy for services. The Ministers’ Council is also committed to fighting discrimination in the field of health with everything at its disposal, and preventing a fragmentation of health services from taking place. The Ministers’ Council is of the opinion, as embodied in the principles of the Constitution of South Africa, that the responsibility for health and welfare is being fragmented at this stage, but not the provision of services as such. However, the Ministers’ Council is concerned about the deliberate fragmentation of services which is taking place at present, and for that reason the Ministers’ Council has decided that such discriminatory practices will not be supported. The Ministers’ Council is also of the opinion that although it accepts responsibility for services, the provision of those services will not be fragmented.

In future these activities and services will be entrusted to the provinces, local authorities and/or private organisations to be performed on an agency basis. Efforts will also be made at all times to have comprehensive services, which are the responsibility of the local authorities, provincial authorities and the Department of Health Services and Welfare, available at a single service point. This means the establishment of a one-stop health service in contrast with the present set-up where the different authorities provide services at different service points.

This new strategic policy will be extremely cost effective and beneficial for the patient because in future the patient will be able to receive a complete service at one clinic. The service provided, which will be on an agency basis, will be of the same standard and it will not be possible to draw a distinction between this service and that provided for other population groups. The Ministers’ Council is committed to there being no fragmentation of services, such as clinics and hospitals, in the South Africa of the future and the department has been instructed to hold discussions with other departments to achieve this objective. This is what we decided at our last Ministers’ Council meeting. I am mentioning this for the information of hon members.

I again want to thank everyone who participated in this debate. I merely want to ask hon members, when we participate in another such debate, to come to this House with greater enthusiasm and with better prepared speeches, because we must see to the upliftment, the development and the improvement of the quality of life of the people in whose service we stand as never before.

Order! I too thank the hon the Minister most sincerely.

Debate concluded.

Bill read a first time.

Mr Chairman, on behalf of the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development, I move:

Mr Chairman, with respect, a move such as is envisaged in the motion has long been overdue. The current situation is insufferable in that if a person in commerce who has given faithful and loyal service for 30 years to a firm is found guilty of embezzlement or defalcation, or any crime involving dishonesty, that person is liable to be dismissed and to forfeit whatever privileges he might have earned. Similarly, in the Public Service a person who has rendered service in similar circumstances could be denied privileges. It is wrong that just because a man happens to be a member of Parliament and has the duty to serve the public, that person should be allowed to be enriched at public expense by defrauding the public or helping his cronies to defraud the public. A wrongdoer has to incur the sanctions of society. He does not deserve to be rewarded by society.

My only complaint as regards this particular motion is that it does not direct the proposed House committee to bring in a finding that whatever decision is made, is retrospective.

Mr Chairman, I understand there is a move afoot to keep a certain man on Parliamentary strength until the amendment to current legislation which is envisaged by the motion, is effected, so that when the man “gets the chop” at that stage, he may be denied the privileges which might otherwise be due to him. We do not believe in that kind of insidious backdoor crab-like activity. We believe that anything which is done, must be done fairly and squarely, in an open and above-board fashion. Nothing must be done by the back door.

If the law had been changed when it ought to have been changed, there would be no room for that kind of circuitous, corkscrew mentality. We of the PFP are satisfied that this is so, because if an ordinary individual is found guilty of an offence involving dishonesty, he is automatically barred from being a director of a company.

He may not even remain the director of a family company which could be owned by himself or his wife, such is the stringency of the wishes of society in regard to the Companies Act. Almost every constitution of every public organisation that I have seen, contains a clause to due effect that if a person is declared mentally unfit or if he is found guilty of an offence involving fraud or dishonesty …

Order! I want to direct the hon member for Reservoir Hills to the fact that the motion merely calls for the appointment of a committee. The sort of information which the hon member is placing before the House now, should actually be placed before such a committee. The issue here is whether such a committee should be appointed or not.

Mr Chairman, what I have been saying has clearly not been properly understood. What I am doing is motivating the appointment of this committee. I have indicated why it is necessary to appoint the joint committee. If those advising have not understood English, I will try to use a different language some other time. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, likewise I should like to support the motion before the House. In doing so, I should like to say that it would go a long way towards satisfying not only the need for trying to put right that which has already taken place, but also to satisfy the cry in this regard in the community at large.

No one can deny that there has been a tremendous outcry against the fact that those who have been found to have acted irregularly, and in some cases fraudulently, have been able to benefit by gratuities and pension payments, precisely because legislation in that regard has not provided for such eventualities. I believe that it is right and proper that this should now be attended to.

I would, however, like to take issue with the Government of the day that it has not seen fit to act more expeditiously. I believe the Government could have acted more expeditiously by way of amending legislation which would be a far quicker and shorter way of attending to the problem. Quite obviously this is my criticism in regard to this matter. Nevertheless we support the motion.

Mr Chairman, with the leave of the House, I withdrew the draft resolution on page 3 of the Order Paper, in my name on the same subject.

I am delighted that this particular motion has been moved by the hon the Minister as result of a Cabinet decision and that we did not have to debate the issue in this or any other Chamber. At this stage there is no need for me to go into great detail as to why it is necessary to have such legislation. I believe that after its investigation this committee would hopefully bring about legislation that will act as a deterrent to those who want to use public office for their selfish personal benefit, whether for themselves or their families. In any private organisation if a person is guilty of misdemeanour, fraud or theft that person is dismissed. He will not be given any bonuses.

Why should the taxpayer then be called upon to compensate and remunerate a person who has been dishonest with the taxpayers’ funds? I think this motion endeavours to address that particular problem.

I have been following the media reports as well and it is evident that some political parties wish to take singular credit for this. I do not think it is a PFP motion or PFP viewpoint per se. I think every single hon member in this House will support this particular draft resolution. I would therefore like to associate myself with the comments of the hon members of the PFP. The only correction that I wish to make is to say that it is not only from the PFP. I think all of us in this House want to ensure that we have a clean administration and we will not tolerate anybody who misuses and abuses his public office.

Mr Chairman, as an independent member I would like to associate myself with the comments made by the hon member for Reservoir Hills. I too want to say that I fully support this draft resolution.

Mr Chairman, I would like to express my thanks and appreciation to the hon members for Reservoir Hills, Springfield, Stanger and Montford—and I am sure that this applies to all the other hon members in this House—for their support.

I just want to make mention that as far as the number of persons to serve on this particular committee is concerned, the committee clerk will obviously liaise with our Whips.

The hon member for Reservoir Hills made a point with regard to this being retrospective. I am sure that the joint committee will certainly handle the situation.

On behalf of my hon colleague I wish to express my thanks for the support of this draft resolution.

Order! I would just like to direct the attention of hon members and in particular the hon member for Reservoir Hills to the scope of the debate on a draft resolution for the appointment of a committee of this nature.

On 16 February 1988 a motion was introduced in the House of Assembly for the appointment of a select committee on an alleged breach of privilege. When during the debate an hon member referred to aspects of the alleged breach of privilege Mr Speaker ruled as follows and I quote from Hansard, 16 February 1988, col 1082:

I merely want to state that the reason why I had to call on the hon member for Reservoir Hills is based on this sound principle.

Draft Resolution agreed to.

Mr Chairman, I want to express my thanks to all hon members who participated in the debate on the Part Appropriation Bill. So many points were raised by hon members that it will be difficult for me to answer each and every query raised. I have made some notes and in good time a written reply or explanation will be extended to the respective members.

I would like to refer to my colleague the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture. He raised the issue of school hall facilities for the community as well as for the students and pupils of the area. We have already commissioned such a school hall in the Arena Park area and this will be shared by both the school-attending members of the community as well as the people in the area. My colleague the hon the Minister of Education and Culture and the department have planned other halls which should help to provide for the needs of our community.

I now want to refer to the request for extra air tickets for the Parliamentary staff—this is the Ministerial and the administrative staff in particular—who come to Cape Town for well-nigh five months of the year. We do appreciate that they need to be considered for extra tickets to visit their family etc.

However, when they are taken on, the tickets and number of days of leave that they will be afforded constitute a condition of their appointment and their being brought to Cape Town during Parliamentary sessions. Nevertheless, realizing the human point of view, we shall certainly give this some attention. However, if we should give attention to the request of just the House of Delegates, it will be unfair. It will then have to apply to all three Houses and if all three Houses are concerned, then we will have to find a very large sum of money. If we have to take the total parliamentary complement of staff, it will run to about half a million rand a year extra. Nonetheless that should not be a deterrent in regard to the humane attitude we should have towards our staff. This is a matter that will have to be considered.

The hon member for Glenview spoke about clean administration and all of us in this House are united in our commitment to clean administration. He also mentioned participation by the Urban Foundation in the exercise of providing affordable or low cost housing for communities. We have already had meetings with the Urban Foundation in the past. Some agreement was to have been reached between the hon former Minister of Housing and the Urban Foundation with regard to the provision of homes. We have planned a meeting with the Urban Foundation, which is to take place in the next day or two, when this matter will be taken up with them again. It is possible that their expertise will help us in the early stages of the acquisition of land and the building of houses.

When we talk about section 19 of the Group Areas Act, my information, which I think is endorsed by the authorities, is that in the CBD areas, where section 19 is applicable, there is really no difficulty. However, what we should be aiming for, although we are totally opposed to any form of application of the Group Areas Act, is that all areas designated as commercial and industrial areas in any local authority municipality should be open trading areas.

I now want to refer to the hon member for Reservoir Hills, who could perhaps have paid the opening remarks of my speech a little more attention. I think I have explained adequately that we did not look at the Part Appropriation Bill as the total requirement for the year. Vote 2 clearly explains the matter. One cannot simply draw any conclusions from the Part Appropriation Bill. The points that have been made by the hon member for Reservoir Hills are well taken. As hon members will have noticed, the Director General, the Chief Director and other directors are sitting in their designated seats. They have also taken note of the contribution made by the hon member for Reservoir Hills. The Director General and I as well as my hon colleagues in the Ministers’ Council do not simply accept what the hon the Minister of Finance gives us as far as funds are concerned.

We have a National Priorities Council where figures are discussed. We have men from our administration who serve on the Treasury committee, which also looks at the Estimates and the funds required for each House and for general affairs. All the necessary input to motivate the funds required for our administration is made at those levels. Therefore, to say that we are just accepting what the hon the Minister of Finance shoves down our throats is not correct.

I admire and respect the viewpoint of the hon member for Reservoir Hills who tried to analyse the percentage increase of 9,8%, or whatever, and concluded that if we look at it in the correct perspective, it actually means a decrease. With respect, this is not so. The hon member is speaking of real growth, which is not so simple to define. If there was a real growth of, say, 5% at national level, one could speak with some certainty on the growth itself and how much would be needed to maintain the national growth. However, I think to presume that the increase in the Part Appropriation Bill in effect means a decrease in our Budget is incorrect.

While saying this, I would like to announce that the hon the Minister of Finance has agreed to address hon members of this House at a caucus meeting to give them information on the state of the economy in South Africa. Perhaps the opportunity will then present itself to question these figures and to enquire from the hon the Minister of Finance what the economy demands from us in the South African situation.

I want to go on to the hon member for Isipingo. I know he speaks with deep feeling and emotion. I know that when somebody speaks with deep feeling and emotion, what he says should come from conviction and experience. One realises the necessity for all our institutions to be colourblind. This is so, but within the framework of the Department of National Education and own affairs education, norms have been set. When norms have been set, we have to adhere to those norms. If there is place at an Indian school and a child other than an Indian wants to enter that school, we have no difficulty with it. We have accepted it. But where there is no place, it is very difficult to accept a child other than an Indian in that school, because one is then depriving the Indian child rightfully to get into that school. However, regarding the point of the hon member for Isipingo that in the preprimary school there are children who want to continue with their studies at the primary level: If there was no place at that school, there is no chance of them getting into the school, but if there is place, then it is certainly a matter of concern for my hon colleague. He will reply to the hon member in due course.

I want to refer briefly to the hon member for Stanger who spoke of the difficulties and problems we have experienced with relation to housing in Cato Manor. In the past the hon the Minister of Housing, as well as the Administration, gave their full co-operation to the CMRA but in the process we discovered that the CMRA and in particular Mr R Parsothan was speaking to the Press first and then coming over to the Administration: House of Delegates or, having done the necessary with the Administration, went to the Press and spoke about his achievements. He does, in fact, have many achievements to his: credit. His representations are well-received and if those representations are meant to be considerations they are considered accordingly and a give-and-take policy is adopted, which should be the case and which is being adhered to.

I want to thank the hon the Acting Chairman of the Ministers’ Council for his contribution. The points he made during the debate were well taken by the hon members who raised the points in relation to his Vote.

The hon member for Bayview made his annual contribution to this debate. In my opinion it is quite right that he should use every opportunity to press home the point in relation to social welfare and pensions.

Looking at welfare and pensions, I want to say that parity means not only parity in monetary value, but also parity in the percentage of the population receiving assistance. Overall, it is difficult to find the money but I, as well as every MP and hon member of the Ministers’ Council, agree that the discrepancy should be addressed because that is definitely based on colour.

That is racism …

We have had committees that looked into the matter and now that the hon Minister of Health Services and Welfare has appointed the hon member for Reservoir Hills to the welfare committee …

He will resolve all our welfare problems.

It is most necessary that an attempt must be made to get that matter in order. The committee has been appointed under the chairmanship of the hon member for Red Hill, a man who also has welfare at heart, and among the seven members of the committee are the hon member for Reservoir Hills and Dr B T Naidoo. However, these three members have talent and the experience of previous service in community welfare affairs that will help this committee very much.

I now want to come to the hon member for Cavendish. I recall the days when I first had the opportunity of listening to the hon member for Cavendish while I was serving on many councils with him, one of which was the M L Sultan Technikon Council. I found his contributions at the council meetings to be appropriate and in the interest of the community and the students. He always made his contributions to the best of his ability.

Yesterday his opening words in the debate was as follows: “Unless sanity prevails in this House there will be no stability.”

Who is contributing to insanity?

I am not going to share that view.

I want to endorse that pronouncement by the hon member for Cavendish. He, as a senior man amongst us, has realised that sanity must prevail.

How will sanity prevail in this House? It will prevail by our getting together and showing ourselves to have a common cause in the interest of South Africa first and foremost. That is how we will do what is expected of us for our community. I do believe I am not latching onto something. I am giving credit where credit is due. I would therefore like to implore hon members of this House not to get cajoled over positions. Hon members should look at themselves, their aims and their goals objectively.

This whole House should!

Very soon we may have an election that will put the whole House in order!

The hon member for Cavendish made a statement and said there was mismanagement in education. The James Commission presented the ideal opportunity for hon members to bring allegations of mismanagement or any other irregularity to the attention of that commission, which would have looked at it properly. However, be that as it may. The opportunity is still there for the hon member for Cavendish to bring to the attention of the hon the Minister of Education and Culture any instances of mismanagement. I as Minister of the Budget can assure hon members that we will not leave any stone unturned when looking at the problems or complaints which hon members may have with regard to mismanagement.

I would now like to refer to the hon member for Springfield, who spoke about stability. He said that when we speak about a free society, we are speaking about a society which is free of colour. He asked that we should consider appointing members to our technikon and university councils. This Ministers’ Council is the first one to have proposed the name of the rector of the University of Zululand to be a member of the Durban-Westville University Council. Unhappily, Professor Ngabinde was not available to take up the post.

I now come to the hon member for Actonville. The first question that the hon member for Actonville put was what amount was allocated to each Vote. I do not know whether the hon member for Actonville paid any attention to the speech I made and the figures given in my speech. If one looks at my speech and if one studies it, one will see that I had given the figures for the different Votes. Hon members would have seen how we arrived at the amount of R325 million. However, the hon member for Actonville perhaps asked this question absent-mindedly, not knowing that I had already answered it.

The hon member for Actonville also insinuated that hon members of this House who are not representative of a particular constituency, go into those constituencies without any knowledge of the hon members for those constituencies.

Ministers, not members!

All right, Ministers then. If an hon Minister has to go to a constituency on any Ministerial work, he is obliged to inform the hon member of that constituency. He is obliged to do that. However, when an hon Minister in his capacity as a political leader of a party, or in his individual capacity, has to go to an area for purposes of a subject, party machinery, and so on, then the hon member of that constituency is not entitled to be advised.

Mr Chairman, I would like the hon the Minister of the Budget to verify this, because the hon the Deputy Minister of Environment Affairs experienced a similar predicament when he visited Ladysmith.

Where was this?

Ladysmith.

Mr Chairman, perhaps that is for the hon the Deputy Minister to answer when he contributes to the Vote.

When one has to be so strict in adhering to protocol or normal procedures, then I think the hon member for Actonville should query his activity and his concern for Villa Lisa and Windmill Park. They do not fall within his constituency at all. [Interjections.]

Any department or any authority which provides education is certainly duty-bound to give education to the children in the area. In the case of the OFS where we have recent migration to areas like Bloemfontein and one has a population of say 40 children of school-going age with perhaps one pupil in class one, three in class two, two in standard one etc, one does not expect the department to build a school to cater for just 40 children and then provide teachers for each class. It may be …

Mr Chairman, I would like to ask the hon the Minister a question. Do I understand him correctly that he wants us to believe that a member of Parliament should not take an interest in the provision of housing for people in a constituency which is not represented by that member of Parliament? That is question one. Question two is, will the hon the Minister tell us if he is aware of the existence of very small schools in the Transvaal and Cape “dorps” catering for small White communities?

Mr Chairman, I would like to clarify that matter. If I misunderstood it then I regret it. I did not say that an hon member should not show an interest in a different outlet, like housing. The point which I was making was directly against the hon member for Actonville who said that when hon Ministers go to these areas, they are not informing the hon member for that constituency of their presence. That is what I was counteracting.

Anyone here who has interests in common with anyone else—housing, education etc—can bring up the matter, as long as they do not undermine the hon member of Parliament for that area. He should be taken into consideration as well.

I am aware that in the little “dorpies” one has schools where there are half-a-dozen, a dozen or perhaps a few more pupils, but those are not State schools. Those are mostly private schools subsidised by the State and the local community.

Mr Chairman, I would like to ask the hon the Minister if he is aware that I come from a little place called Rooikop near Germiston where there were about 20 children and the Government used to run a school there for White people?

They used to, so it is no longer there.

Secondly, I would like to ask whether the hon the Minister knows that the community is now running a school on its own at very great expense to them and they have been told by our department that they must send their children to a boarding-school.

Mr Chairman, is that a question?

Order! Will the hon member for Actonville state what his question is? [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I would like to know if I understand correctly that the hon the Minister is trying to tell us that the House of Delegates cannot provide schooling for 40 children who are of school-going age in the OFS?

Order! The hon the Minister may proceed.

If it is the whole of the OFS, that makes it impossible. It is impossible to do this for 40 schoolchildren for the whole of the OFS. [Interjections.] Yes, in Bloemfontein—I understood the hon member, but I just want to correct him. Even 40 children is not a viable unit.

Where must they go to?

They must go to the White schools in the area. [Interjections.] We must not build special schools for them.

But that is what I said. Eighty per cent of the White schools …

Mr Chairman, I do not wish my speech to be further interrupted. I have very little time. I think, however, the hon member for Actonville would be well-advised to begin by conceptualising what he is going to say before he says it.

My colleague, the hon the Acting Minister of Housing, and I take the points made in regard to Pelican Park. This has been an issue that has engaged the attention of our administration for some time. It is a lengthy reply and I can give it to the hon member in writing.

I do, however, want to say that we agree with the hon member for Rylands that when the Ministers’ Council makes a policy statement, it is a matter of collective responsibility. However, the moment it passes on to a Minister for implementation, that is a line function, and the Minister is responsible for line function.

I thank the hon member for North Western Cape for the compliment he paid us in thanking us for the Vryburg school dispensation. We appreciate this. The points made by him in relation to Pelican Park will also be addressed, as will those raised by the hon member for Rylands.

I sincerely thank the hon member for Chatsworth for his contribution. I have taken note of what he had to say, and I shall be contacting him in that regard.

In conclusion, I wish to thank hon members once again for their speeches of support, which clearly indicated that I will not be having any difficulty in the passing of the Part Appropriation Bill. What I do want to say, however, is that in my main Budget, as promised in my speech, I shall give hon members more details of the administration’s requirements and what we expect in terms of income and expenditure.

Debate concluded.

Bill read a first time.

Second Reading Debate

Mr Chairman, I need not explain anything further. We have had a fairly exhaustive debate on the Bill, and I am hopeful that consideration will be given to my appeal that this House will be kind enough to allow the Second Reading.

Mr Chairman, my contribution to this debate is centred around the question of inadequate housing in our community. The ever-increasing demand for housing by the less affluent section of our community is a socio-economic reality, and we must take cognisance of these realities. Therefore the provision of housing for these masses requires energetic and immediate action by providing them with affordable homes at realistic prices. I am sure that all hon members will agree with me when I say that the foundation of any family in a society is the establishment of a stable home.

Regrettably the House of Delegates has neglected this very important element. This, together with all the wheeling and dealing, has brought shame on all of us. I believe that the Ministers’ Council has a major role to play and has to undo all the harm caused by the hon the former Chairman of the Ministers’ Council and Minister of Housing.

Hear, hear!

I suggest very strongly that the hon the Acting Minister of Housing examine the concept of core housing which is a necessity at the moment. I do hope he will give greater impetus to the establishment of such units. This is a necessity, not only in Natal, but throughout the country.

These types of homes would not only meet the urgent requirements for housing; they would also afford and create initiative for the house-owner and his family to come together and to improve the core units by way of extensions, etc.

We have now entered the fifth session of this Parliament and I am utterly disgusted and disappointed in the snail’s pace of progress in providing homes to our people. There are more than 20 000 people on the Durban City Council’s waiting list. We have been talking about the unavailability of land. There were calls from the hon the former Chairman of the Ministers’ Council—who also held the portfolio of Minister of Housing—that we as members of Parliament should bring to his notice and identify land in certain areas. However, I do not think it is a parochial issue.

I want to specifically deal with available land in certain areas after the call had been made to identify such land. Land is available in high density areas such as Chatsworth, where this type of problem exists. I would like to know what is happening, for instance, in the development of Savanna Park and other developments in the Chatsworth area, like Westcliff and Arena Park. That land was taken away from the Durban City Council some time ago. The House of Delegates is losing a great amount in revenue while these serviced sites are still vacant. Immediate action …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Savanna Park does not belong to the Durban City Council. It belongs to the House of Delegates.

Order! The hon member may proceed.

I am referring to land in the Chatsworth complex that belongs to the Durban City Council. I do hope the hon member will open his ears in future. I am not referring to Savanna Park. It is not owned by the Durban City Council and was serviced by the Development Services Board and handed over to the House of Delegates. However, that land is still available and, at this stage, no development at all is evident.

My call to the hon the Minister is to look into this aspect as a matter of great urgency. Some people are living in deplorable conditions. When one thinks of the housing shortage and the plight of these people, as members of Parliament we must take cognisance of this call by the community.

Money was ploughed into servicing these sites and I should also like to know from the Ministry who will be burdened with the capitalised interest which has accumulated over the years.

Homeowners.

The taxpayers.

The answer is very clear. The taxpaying home-owners will have to pay this amount.

They will have to pay because of somebody’s delay.

Yes, they will have to pay because of somebody’s undue delay. I think the Ministry must answer us as to what is the cause of this undue delay when there is such a dire need for immediate housing for our community.

I should like to appeal to the newly appointed hon Acting Minister of Housing to seriously look into the aspect and to take the necessary steps to start developing these sites.

These sites that were cleared of vegetation and serviced long ago are back to square one today and of course it will now cost further money. With these words I would like to appeal to the hon the Minister once again to give us an answer as to what the cause of the delay was. We want to know what proposal he has in mind in regard to these sites that I have mentioned.

Mr Chairman, countless sermons of sanity, morality and stability are being dished out left, right and centre. At the same time the actions inside and outside this very House are those of destabilisation and immorality and leave much to be desired. [Interjections.]

I became the victim of hon members’ greed for power and position whereby established conventions and traditions were trampled under foot. As a result of this I became the sacrificial lamb. All hon members know this very well. My Ministerial post was bartered and traded for by the Ministries of the Budget and Auxiliary Services and Health Services and Welfare in the name of unity.

It became a marriage of convenience and ridicule. This political marriage became the first in the world in Parliamentary history whereby the Leader of the Official Opposition and the Minister of the Budget was one and the same person. This was unprecedented in history. The person who took over the Ministry that I held was also the general treasurer of Solidarity, the Official Opposition party.

Therefore the actors in this intrigue and drama were the hon member for Arena Park, who was the main actor, the hon member for Glenview and the hon member for Verulam. No-one, not a single person, then spoke of the morality of my unfair dismissal. It was the most traumatic experience of my entire life and not only for me but for my entire family. It was for no apparent wrong that I had done.

Today the hon member for Arena Park has been dishonourably stripped of his position that he formerly held. He and his family have suffered immeasurable harm. [Interjections.] I should be the first person to rejoice and celebrate because of the grave injustices that were done to me. However, my philosophy and credibility do not permit me to do so. I dare not and will not kick any man when he is down and grovelling in the dust. [Interjections.] If I were to allow my passions to control me I should then contribute towards the hon member for Arena Park’s continued grovelling in the dust and the dirt. As all hon members know, that hon member is on his way out.

What amazes me is the fact that the present hon Minister of Health Services and Welfare travels to a number of constituencies. The hon the Minister of the Budget says that he is entitled to do so. He says that if one has tickets to travel one can travel to the moon if one likes.

The hon the Minister has also been to my constituency. [Interjections.] Where ignorance is bliss it is folly to be wise.

Instead of concentrating on matters pertaining to his portfolio he indulged in disparaging remarks about me and issued a press statement which appeared in the Diamond Fields Advertiser. I quote as follows:

He actually uses the terms that the hon member for Arena Park used when he fired me. He is paying for it. I continue:

This the hon the State President did not agree with, but he said:

The hon the Minister refused. This character assassination continued outside the hall where this meeting was held. I am shocked that the hon the Minister could have sunk to such a low level as to speak about an hon colleague in that manner.

Where is morality, where is sanity, where is stability? The selfsame hon Minister speaks publicly about racial unity and non-racialism and then uses his ministerial powers to influence the Department of Education and Culture in the House of Delegates to transfer a Tamil-speaking teacher to some God-forsaken place. What was the crime of this Tamil-speaking teacher? His crime was that he was in love with a Gujaratispeaking girl. The hon the Minister did not even know.

Mr Chairman, will the hon member please take a question?

Mr Chairman, I am not interested in questions. This smells of hypocrisy and the lowest level of double standards. The hon the Minister should first search his conscience and take the beam out of his eye before he tries to take the speck out of another’s.

Mr Chairman, I want to respond directly to the hon member for North Western Cape and I would like him to pay particular attention to what I have to say. Nobody who jumps for a carrot that is dangled in front of him and openly admits that he covets possession and the privileges that go with being a Minister—which are far less important considerations than dropping a man who has brought disgrace to this House. He has demonstrated on this floor that he has no right to stand up and preach morality, ethics and virtue here and question the lack of stability in this House. What they need to do is to look at themselves in the mirror and ask themselves a question: Does what I did on that occasion justify the reaction?

The hon the Minister who went to Kimberley has the right to go there and talk to people because he wants to work in that constituency for another party to which he now owes allegiance. He is perfectly entitled to do so and he owes nobody any apology, least of all somebody who does not even have a constituency office, as the papers in that constituency state. Insofar as the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare in this House is concerned, the James commission was given a report of the accusations which the hon member for North Western Cape referred to, the matter was examined and the hon the Minister was cleared. Therefore, to come here and clutch at straws in order to build a case that does not exist, is not right. Nothing that is said or done in the future will ever exonerate those hon members who on the day of reckoning in this House did not have the guts to stand up for truth and took a cowardly walk to the benches on the other side of the floor to save the day for an individual who should have gracefully left this institution.

Order! Did the hon member for Glenview say that hon members did not have the guts? Will the hon member please withdraw that statement.

Mr Chairman, I withdraw it. They did not have the courage.

Therefore any eloquent address this afternoon is meaningless and will disappear like mist before the morning sun, because it is not based on truth or integrity, and it is not the kind of address that one would expect to hear from a member of Parliament whose background should have given him the opportunity of having an appreciation for and understanding of values. When we teach values, we must also practice those values and they must remain with us for all time, irrespective of the circumstances in which we find ourselves.

I want to say that what has been painful for us and what has added to our disgust is the fact that people who are well-equipped to understand and to know better can change their allegiances from moment to moment, from street to street and from town to town. In the final analysis they demonstrate what their values are, that is, nothing. It is a pity that yesterday, when somebody was debating here, he said: “I gave nothing. I received nothing.” It is very important, in this situation, to define the word nothing, because it certainly has value as far as the House of Delegates is concerned. The hon member gave nothing and he received nothing, but I want to know what that nothing is all about.

As I said, I take very strong exception to a statement that there is no stability in this House. We are trying to achieve stability, and we are trying to do this on such a basis that people will understand where their rightful place is and that they will identify with those who are working for stability. However, there is constant change in this House, depending on what kind of inducements are offered to people. Permutations are made each day, additions sometimes go wrong and often people become optimistic that they will suddenly have a new situation which gives them cause for hope. We on this side of the House are committed to working for change. Irrespective of what the outcome is, we will accept that outcome as a reality in the knowledge that those who are not prepared at this point in time to identify with right and who cannot differentiate between right and wrong have no place on this side of the House. In fact they have no place in this House. I hope that when an election comes about, the community at large will demonstrate to them what hypocrites they were and they will accept that decision gracefully.

Mr Chairman, with reference to what the hon member for Glenview has said, I want to say that we have had enough commissions. We have had enough of this in this House and I stand up here to say that I do not have any skeletons in my cupboard. I do not have anything hidden behind my back. I stand here as a clean man. I gave up my position, although it was not dangled before me as a carrot. I resigned as a honourable man, and I stand here with those principles. I want to make that very clear and I want hon members to stand up here and compare themselves with me.

! want to say that I do not think this is the place to moralise and philosophise. We should get up and examine ourselves. Let us not point fingers at one another. I think that it is high time that we put this House in order. In as much as we say and do things here, we must do them in our constituencies as well. That is the challenge. That is what matters.

Coming back to the Bill before us, I want to say one or two things to the hon the Minister who presented a nice Budget speech in writing. I also want to associate myself with him in expressing our sympathy for the flood victims in Ladysmith, but I want to say that good Englishmen have written a good English language, in which it is said that an ounce of help is worth a pound of sympathy.

I want to remind the hon the Minister that many thousands of Indian families who were victims of the floods in September last year, as well as in February, are still waiting for some kind of help. They have not even received a letter of acknowledgement. They have not even been visited. They had to fill in form after form that was so confusing that even a professor would find it difficult to fill them in. Is that the way to treat our people that are in distress and that need help and some sort of encouragement to survive and live? I want us to look into that matter.

There is also burning dissatisfaction at grassroots level among our people. The discontinuation of the disability grant is a curse that this House will have to avert very quickly if it wants to survive and face the people that it wants to ask to vote for it in the election.

Much has been said about housing and the money that is made available for that and for education. Another burning issue in the communities is the pre-primary school module. Many schools require it but we have no money. Telling the people that there is “no money” is not an answer. One cannot convince the ordinary man in the street that one has no money, when their children want to go to school. It is no use passing legislation in Parliament that all children under the age of 16 must be in school when we cannot provide for them. It is nonsensical to have such legislation, and those people who support it and put it on the Statute Books should think twice. It is no good dictating those things when one cannot provide for it.

We are a strong opposition. We shall welcome you.

I welcome the hon member for Havenside catching on to Savanna Park but people must not meddle in affairs that they know nothing about. Savanna Park has been in the picture for many years. It is a very sore point and people must be very careful what they say because Savanna Park in the Mariannhill constituency is a bomb. If hon members do not know what they are talking about, they must not speak.

That area is a South Africa on a small scale. There are Blacks, Coloureds, Indians, Whites, industries and commerce and provision has to be made for all these people. During the whole of my public life I have been fighting to maintain racial harmony in that area and I am proud that I have achieved that. I speak to the Black community freely and move in that area freely and I have built up race relationships that will prevail in that area for a long time. I want to warn members not to step into areas that they know nothing about. [Interjections.]

There has been much discussion on television about building houses. Now we do not even have that. It is important that we start addressing this issue very urgently.

[Inaudible.]

Well, at least we built on television. Now we do not even do that! [Interjections.] At least some people had the hope that they were getting houses. Now they do not even have that hope. Let us be practical about it. It is no good driving around in municipal cars. That is not going to help. That is just as good as going on television. It is similar. Let us be honest and practical about it.

The hon leader of the Labour Party said in the joint debate that the success of this tricameral Parliament will depend on the fair allocation of funds. Let us take that, not as a sugar-coated pill, but as a matter of survival. If that is not going to happen, we are wasting our time because we shall never be able to deliver the goods or meet the demands of our people.

I do not have any doubts or suspicions with regard to the hon the Minister of the Budget and I do not want to tell him that I do not have faith in him or that he does not put up a fight in the place where it counts, but I do want to tell him that if he wants to lead this House to what he says and if he wants the tricameral Parliament to survive, he must leave aside stability in the House and get money into our purses. That will ensure that this House will survive.

Approximately 500 innocent primary school children in the Motala Farm area are being subjected to high-handed manoeuvring by high-ranking personnel who are making every possible effort to prevent the building of a school for these children in a proclaimed Indian area. I shall be giving a detailed report on this matter in the education debate. I have already asked the Whip to allot enough time to me so that I can expose this to hon members. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I would like to take this opportunity of echoing what the hon member for Glenview said about the need for stability. Stability in this House does not just depend upon the number of hon members a particular political party has at any given time. Stability will only come to this House when hon members stop looking for positions, when they stop counting what their chickens will bring at the end of the month and pay more attention to their responsibilities as hon members of this House and as MPs.

Stability will only come to this House when hon members do not engage in character assassination. Unfortunately this was engaged in by the hon member for North Western Cape. I do not think that the hon members know the facts of the case. It so happens that I delved deeply into the facts of that case. The facts of that case were that one man was a notorious liar, he was known to be thoroughly dishonest and he has stolen public assets. That man put to a witness—who is also known to be thoroughly dishonest—a question which elicited an answer which sought to malign the hon the Minister of Health and Welfare Services of this House.

The statement made before the commission was a deliberate lie. The hon member for North Western Cape obviously believed that lie. If he knew it was a lie, I doubt whether he would have repeated that lie in this House. I take it that he repeated that lie unwittingly. I assume that he will have the grace to apologise to the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare, notwithstanding that he may have coveted that post and notwithstanding that the man who had told the original lie might have promised him that post! [Interjections.]

However, we need stability in other respects as well. I do not want to hear certain stories which have been making their rounds. I do not necessarily believe these stories, but the stories have been making their rounds that if so-and-so joins a particular political party, he would be made Chairman of the House. When I heard of this I exploded and said that the Chairmanship is not a political football to be kicked around. The dignity of this House is adversely affected when that kind of talk goes around.

If, of course, the Chairman of this House—whoever he might be—were to take political instructions from anybody, whoever he might be, and act on those instructions against an hon member of this House, against his better judgement and against the demands of morality, then of course one could impeach such a Chairman. However, that situation does not exist. As a politician I have had many disagreements with the hon the Chairman of the House, but since he has become the hon the Chairman of the House he has conducted himself with absolutely impartiality. He has enhanced the dignity of this House and that is one of the requirements of stability in this House.

We—the hon member for Springfield and I—belong to a small political party. Everyone knows what we stand for. We do not deviate from those principles. We have made it clear that we are not interested in being anything other than ordinary MPs. Indeed, when we were offered certain carrots, we rejected them! We rejected them with scorn! We do not care which party has the majority in this House, whether it is the NPP or Solidarity, as long as there is stability and as long as we get away from the rather curious situation that we have.

The House of Delegates has been responsible for many firsts. One of the firsts was when the former hon Leader of the Official Opposition was a Minister. Today we have the case that the Parliamentary leader of one party is also a Minister. That is incongruous and it has to stop.

The hon the Leader of the NPP must decide whether his party is a governing party or whether it is an opposition party. If it is an opposition party, and if he is the leader of the party which is an opposition in this House, he must behave like the Leader of the Official Opposition. He must therefore acquire that title which means that he must relinquish the position of Minister. It requires dignity and it requires a contribution to the stability of this House. Let us stop playing these ridiculous games which make a charade of Parliament.

The hon the Acting Minister of Housing is overburdened with three jobs and I do not think that any person should be required to carry the portfolio of Housing as well as that of Education. The acting chairmanship of the Ministers’ Council, unless the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council interferes in the ordinary work of Ministers, ought to be a sinecure.

The hon the Minister of Housing has a tremendous job to do and the hon the Minister of Education has a tremendous job to do. Fortunately for them—with some exceptions—they have good staff in both those departments. Fortunately we no longer have the situation where someone goes and interferes with the staff so that the staff can now get on with the job for which they are paid.

Previously housing was badly neglected because we had senior staff whose time was taken up by dealing with memoranda after memoranda, and following instructions about the allocation of service station sites, of trading sites and chopping and changing. They are obviously human beings and they cannot devote enough time to planning for housing. Clearly that is one of the factors responsible for the sad situation we have in Bonela today. Unfortunately the hon the Acting Minister of Housing was not able to tell us what percentage of the income of a household goes into rent. He has promised to tell us and I trust that he will.

I am not accusing him at this stage. He has had that job thrust upon him but it would be most unreasonable if any householder or any family were required to pay more than 25% of his income by way of rent. That is where the question of subsidisation for people who live below a certain economic standard comes in.

This is what is meant by a redistribution of wealth—taking money from those who have it, and all or some of us here know that we pay through our noses. I would just like to tell the hon members about a case which was recorded once where there was a misprint and instead of saying interest at 18% per annum, one ‘n’ was missed out from the ‘annum’. The judge said: “I always knew that people were required to pay through the nose …”. [Interjections.]

Dealing with another job which that hon Minister has to do with regard to education, what has been done about the man who was declared a liar and who is occupying a very important position as one of the Chief Directors of Education? [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, yesterday I could not quite complete some of the sentiments I had to express and therefore I welcome the opportunity to do so this afternoon.

Firstly, I agree with all those speakers who say that there should be stability in this House. Stability can only be achieved if we translate our words into actions and something meaningful, tangible and real. I know that as one of the main stumbling blocks in achieving stability, we blame one person and one person only, who seems to have been the cause of the instability of this particular House.

That person is not in this Chamber although he remains as a member of Parliament. So the logical thing ought to have been that we have now achieved stability but it seems to me that that was not the only cause and that there were other causes as well. We need to search our consciences to find out what the other causes are.

I will say that there is a tendency in this House that when something beneficial is done, when something good is done—I am referring to the James Commission—there are people who want to take singular credit for it. That is what I was talking about yesterday.

They want to believe it was because of A or B only that this commission was appointed. I should like to suggest that it was as the result of many elements. I believe one of the important persons in this particular exercise was none other than the hon member for Red Hill. He played a very significant role; not that others played a lesser role.

Credit is due to the hon members for Red Hill and Isipingo.

Yes, the hon member for Isipingo and various other members as well. I would even like to give credit to those who had the courage to leave the NPP at that time and join forces with Solidarity for the purposes of cleansing the stigma that this House was acquiring. We must acknowledge that role. We must even acknowledge the role of the hon member for Reservoir Hills and his PFP colleague.

A minor role! [Interjections.]

However, I would like to believe that the person in question is no longer here, and we should now get down to real work. Talking about him all the time is not going to help us in any way. I should like to conclude that aspect by saying that success, such as the success of the James Commission, has too many fathers, and failure is like an unwanted and abandoned child.

I should like to focus on the positive aspects. I like to believe that what the hon member for Reservoir Hills said, was correct. I think that the House as a whole, and not only the Ministers’ Council, must stand together against that which was wrong. If it means that we have to support legislation to reverse those things that were done wrongfully as regards the alienation of land and dishonesty at the expense of taxpayers and ratepayers, we need to take that action. We must not have a cover-up here. I challenge every hon member here to support such measures when the time comes. Not only the Ministers’ Council, but every hon member should search his conscience.

It is unfortunate that the hon member for North Western Cape is not present. It is unfortunate that he spoke the way he did. I can understand that the hon member may have felt hurt, and so forth. I have been the Chief Whip of the party I belong to—Solidarity—ever since I came to Parliament. I have had occasion to deal with membership applications from different parties, and it is to me a tragedy, when I look at some of the files and records that I have in my possession, how hon members have changed their allegiances from hour to hour, day to day and month to month.

[Inaudible.]

It is ridiculous. If one looks at the office of the Serjeant-at-Arms, it is ridiculous. I have in my possession a letter dated May last year from the hon member for North Western Cape aligning himself with Solidarity. Today I hear a different story. He himself had been complaining to me about the harm that was done, and I shared that feeling with him, because it was regrettable when the hon member’s spouse was unfairly attacked in the newspaper. Anybody worth his salt would have been upset with that. He was rightly upset. However, I was shocked, because it was inconceivable to me that after all that humiliation he could have voted the way he did the other day. I have said this to him personally. I do not say it with any thought of vengeance. My appeal is: One must be consistent. [Interjections.] If one finds that a certain thing was wrong, one does not do a somersault of that kind. The talk that is doing the rounds in the corridors of Parliament is that big carrots and Barberton carrots were dangled.

As a Whip, I have also been asked why it is that this House has so many independents. I want to address myself to the hon member for Actonville, and ask him whether he belongs to a party, whether he is a leader of a party, whether he gets an independent allowance, or does he get a party allowance in terms of the Whips’ allowances one gets in Parliament?

A lot of people want to be independent, because independent members get an office allowance. On the other hand, if one belongs to a party, one’s allowance is a nominal one of about R50 to R60 a month. When one becomes an independent and one remains an independent, one gets about R300 a month. [Time expired.]

Debate interrupted.