Mr Chairman, I move the Draft Resolution which appears in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, I move the amendment.

Mr Chairman, we are going to consider the report of the Joint Committee on Constitutional Development on the Alteration of Boundaries of Self-Governing Territories Bill and I want to pay tribute to and thank my colleague the hon member for Berea who handled this Bill during my absence. He and my other colleague the hon member for Houghton are going to be greatly missed next year. [Interjections.] I have found them both of great assistance to me in particular and, I have no doubt, to many hon members on matters such as this Bill before us today. After many years of service in this Place, they have a fund of knowledge which is going to be difficult to replace.

The committee considered a number of amendments in respect of clause 2 in particular. That clause provides that:

1. (a) include any Black area defined by him in the proclamation, in the area for which the legislative assembly of the said self-governing territory has been established.

My colleague the hon member for Berea moved a number of amendments. The first one was to omit the words “Notwithstanding the provisions of the National States Constitution Act… or of any other law”… [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members are talking too loudly. The hon member may proceed.

Mr Chairman, the reason why the hon member for Berea moved that amendment was because we wanted to narrow the scope of the clause, but unfortunately it was rejected by the committee.

The second amendment which was moved by the hon member was to omit the provision for consultation with the Cabinet of the self-governing territory concerned and to substitute that there should be concurrence with the Cabinet of the self-governing territory concerned. Unfortunately this too was rejected. We greatly regret this because we believe that it is important that the people concerned should be consulted and that an agreement should be reached with those people.

The third amendment moved by the hon member was to add the following provisos, viz:

That amendment was also rejected by the committee. It is a great pity because we believe very firmly that it is important that Parliament should decide when land has to be added to the self-governing territories. We also believe that it is important that the people who are to be added to a self-governing territory should be consulted.

The fourth amendment that the hon member for Berea moved was to omit clause 2(3). The hon the Deputy Minister also moved a similar amendment and that amendment was accepted by the committee.

He then moved that clause 3 should be deleted. Clause 3 provides for the validation of the proclamation concerning the activities in Moutse during the period when Moutse was under the control of the KwaNdebele government and, more importantly, it validates Proclamation No 227 which provides for the inclusion of Botshabelo into Qwaqwa. This is a very contentious clause indeed but that amendment was unfortunately also rejected.

The one proposed amendment that has been accepted and which we are considering at the present time is to omit clause 2(3) which provides:

This followed an outcry from within and without South Africa against the courts losing their competence to inquire. I am aware that certain embassies made representations to the Government on this issue. Within South Africa there were lawyers, pressure groups from commerce and industry and many others who made representations to the joint committee to have this subsection removed. They all expressed grave concern at the consequences of this measure.

Perhaps I should mention in passing that an hon member of the opposition in one of the other Houses expressed himself, to my complete amazement, totally in favour of this subsection. There was a great outcry but this particular hon gentleman was in favour of it. Fortunately the Government saw the error of their ways and have also moved to have the subsection deleted.

I do not, however, believe this to be sufficient as in effect it is an almost meaningless gesture for the reasons which I shall now outline.

Clause 2(1), despite our amendments to restrict the wide scope of the Bill, still provides that, notwithstanding the provisions of the National States Constitution Act, 1971 (Act No 21 of 1971), or of any other law, the State President may, if he deems it expedient, add any land to a self-governing territory.

Technically a court will be competent to enquire into or pronounce upon the validity of any proclamation issued by the State President. However, as any intelligent lawyer will tell one, the dice are loaded against the litigant and it will be extremely difficult for him or her to prove that the State President did not act in good faith or did not deem it expedient.

In addition it is a great pity that our amendment providing for the approval by Parliament and the majority of the people before incorporating… [Interjections.]… them into a self-governing territory was not accepted. I find it…

Order! Today is a very important day. It is very important that we finish in good time. It would help considerably if hon members would give the hon member an opportunity to finish his speech.

Thank you, Sir. I can understand that some of those hon members are nervous because they are obviously not going to be returning here in September this year. [Interjections.]

The Government says that they have abandoned the policy of forced removals. However, what they now do is simply move the boundaries. The people remain where they are but their rights disappear. One now has a situation where 600 000 people in Botshabelo could be added to the territory of Qwaqwa. They will remain where they are but they will be added administratively if the appeal fails later this year. They will be added without having been consulted. I believe that to move them against their will will be a form of tyranny. However, that is typical of this arrogant Government that does not understand the meaning of the word “consultation”.

In conclusion, in spite of all this we regret that our amendments were not accepted. We believe that they would have made a considerable improvement to the Bill but nevertheless we acknowledge that the right of the courts to enquire into or pronounce upon the validity of any proclamation issued by the State President is an important issue and we accept the report.

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to follow on the hon member for Johannesburg North. I wonder whether the Whips actually planned that Bloemfontein North should follow Johannesburg North. However, it is clear to me that what the DP professes in their programme of principles they renounce in their deeds.

*I shall explain it to the hon members. [Interjections.] They are basing their objection, inter alia, upon one of the amendments which they attempted to recommend with reference to the report of the plaintiffs attorneys, namely “no legislation of this nature should be enacted without the legislature being satisfied that every resident of Botshabelo has been given the opportunity to express his or her views with regard to it”.

As I understand democracy, it means the opportunity to consult those people whose interests are affected. It does not say what percentage must be consulted. That is what these hon members are basing their entire standpoint on.

The residents of Botshabelo were consulted on various occasions. They were consulted in 1985, and in the Qwaqwa election campaign 65 000 residents voted in favour of the incorporation. [Interjections.] In July 1986 the Blacks were consulted by the Commission for Co-operation and Development and only four Black bodies reacted, namely the Qwaqwa Government, the members of the Botshabelo Legislative Assembly, the Botshabelo Dikwankwetla Party and the Botshabelo Youth League. They all reacted in favour of this incorporation. In July 1987 there was, within the space of a single week, a petition comprising 15 000 signatures asking for incorporation and the acceleration thereof.

The moment democracy is in the DP’s favour, democracy applies. However, whenever democracy is against them, as in this instance, they make use of this issue for the benefit of dubious political advantage. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member a question?

I am busy. I only have five minutes. The hon member has had his chance.

Furthermore, they do not care a rap about the residents of Botshabelo. They are attempting to make political capital out of this, because marriages have been concluded, births, deaths and motor vehicles have been registered…

Order! I see that the hon members are talking to one another over a long distance. If hon members must talk, they should sit next to one another. The hon member may continue.

… something which is not given the slightest consideration by these people. I put it to hon members that they are making political statements here which do not hold water, for the sake of short-term political advantage. It is a pleasure for this side of the House to support the motion. [Interjections.]

Debate concluded.

Amendment agreed to.

Business suspended at 10h18 and resumed at llh39.

Mr Speaker, I hope you will forgive me if I am unable to speak as clearly as I would like to but I have laryngitis. I think the hon members will understand…

Order! I should just like to point out to hon members that the hon the Minister is trying to address the House with great personal discomfort, owing to a throat affection. It may be necessary a little later on to place a small microphone on his lapel to enable him to be more easily heard. I am merely requesting hon members’ co-operation. The hon the Minister may proceed.

Mr Speaker, may I thank you for your kind comments and I convey my thanks to all the hon members who took part in the debate yesterday. I regard it as a compliment that there was no criticism by any hon member levelled either at my Ministry or at the administration at all. The only hon member who referred to the administration was the hon member for Klip River who very kindly complimented the administration, and I regard that as a great compliment to the administration as a whole, particularly to the departmental heads and their staff. Therefore I want to thank them for their achievements.

As a matter of fact, that compliment was confirmed by the Auditor-General. I would like to place on record that the Auditor-General in his 1987-88 report had the following to say when he reported upon this department’s administration.

*It does not often happen that the Auditor-General makes such remarks, but he put it as follows:

When one takes into account that this administration has to submit 450 annual statements, as compared to 56 annual statements in the case of normal state departments, it is indeed a great achievement.

The hon members for Ventersdorp and Losberg were among those who attempted to drive a wedge between me and the Government and my friend the hon the Deputy Minister of Finance. It is dangerous to quote a Bible text in isolation. What is more, every politician knows that it is dangerous to extract a portion or a single sentence of an hon member’s speech and then to ask someone to comment on it. I am not prepared to pass comment on single sentences. Hansard is there, and my friend’s speech is there for everyone to read. He did, in fact, expand on it yesterday. I am therefore not prepared to comment on it.

I also want to say that we must be very careful whenever we make generalisations and then make use of averages.

†Averages are dangerous thing. It is also dangerous when one talks in terms of statistics. Someone said the other day that one can torture the statistics to confess to almost anything. I do not intend to torture the statistics here today. When one talks of people and the problems of people, it is dangerous to talk in terms of averages. It is like the old story of the man who had his head in the oven and his feet in the refrigerator, and his average body temperature was normal. I do not intend to say any more about that.

*I do intend to say something about the allegations made by the hon members for Ventersdorp and Yeoville in particular. The hon member for Ventersdorp said that we were turning a blind eye to the homeless and the aged. He implied that the NP did not care. That simply is not true. †In this constitutional dispensation, that is since 1984, we have spent R479,977 million on housing for Whites. Of that amount, 70% has been used to provide housing for the aged. In the past three years housing was provided for 7 272 aged people at a cost of approximately R50 million per annum.

That goes on. I had the pleasure the other day of being able to announce a project in my own constituency worth R15 million for old people. We have been working on this project for years, and we will go on with that kind of thing.

We do care; we care very much, and I do not accept the allegation of the hon member for Ventersdorp that we do not care.

*The hon member for Turffontein made a very balanced and worthwhile speech about corruption.

†The hon member for Yeoville referred to the pensioners. I know he cares about them. I think he cares about them as much as I do, and for him it is not just an election ploy. We know that hardly a speech goes by in which he does not refer to the problems of the aged, the infirm, the fragile and so on.

He said that if anything was to be done about the aged, it should be done now. I want to say that I agree with that hon member. I have made representations to the hon the Minister of Finance—we are now dealing with whether or not pensions are to be increased—as has the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare, who referred to this in the debate on his Vote, and the matter is under discussion.

I hope we will reach a decision quickly, because in an election year there is nothing worse than poor, fragile people who are battling for survival finding themselves being used by political parties as a football at election time. Frankly, I think it is unfair to our country for us to subject people to that kind of thing. I do hope, as we have such a long run-up to this election, that we will be able to have a decision before too long so that we can take this matter out of the political arena. I will try my best anyway.

*The hon member for Pretoria West, the Chairman of the House, said in his farewell speech that he was the servant of the House.

†I can only say to him that he has served well. I will always remember the hon the Chairman of the House for his mature touch. He never stifled debate, but he was always in control in a very soft and gentle way. In the way in which he chaired this House we saw nothing at all of the army commandant which I believe he is too. We will miss him.

*The hon the Deputy Minister of Agriculture said the CP was the enemy of the farmer. I agree with that.

I want to dwell for a while on what the hon member Dr De Beer said. He said that the more apartheid there was, the more poverty there would be. Hon members of the CP say that the less apartheid there is, the more poverty there will be. Is that not true? Surely they want more apartheid. They say that if one has more apartheid, things will go better and better for our country. [Interjections.] They say that the less apartheid there is, the more poverty there will be. [Interjections.]

My hon leader is in the habit of saying that the NP is a whole party, not half a party which does not deal with the whole reality of South Africa. [Interjections.] One realises, when one listens to those hon members, that both of their statements cannot be true.

†I was paging through an issue of RSA Policy Review the other day. It lists 37 major legislative reforms—the hon member for Houghton has referred to some of them—over the past few years. These are major reform measures, and I will mention just a few.

There was the abolition of job reservation in 1981; the establishment of democratically elected Black local authorities in 1982; the abolition of the Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act and section 16 of the Immorality Act in 1985; the restoration of common citizenship in 1986; the granting of full property rights in 1986; the abolition of influx control in 1986; the opening of central business districts; and the establishment of the multiracial regional services councils in 1987. One could go on.

What does the hon member Dr De Beer say? He gives one the impression that somehow this party is failing to move with the times and is not responding to the forces of history or to those at work in our society. In fact, this party is responding to those forces. It is my prediction and hope that we will see an even greater and more dynamic response under the leadership of the hon Chairman of the Ministers’ Council when he becomes State President.

The hon member criticised this tricameral Parliament by asking: “Hoe sterk is die magsbasisse van die Bruin- en Indiërmense?”

*The hon member also said that the hon the Minister of Finance made all the decisions regarding money, that there was no power base and that it was only a charade or a game, because the power was actually in the hands of the hon the Minister of Finance. That is what the hon member said. The hon member knows that is not true. Why are we holding an election now? We are holding an election because the House of Representatives does not wish to approve an amendment to the Constitution to enable the normal term of this House, namely the five years which we are used to, to run its course. That is the reason for it.

†Is that “no power” or a voiceless entity in this Parliament that can force the country into having general election? That is utter nonsense! The hon member also says that they have no say. He does not seem to know how the system of Parliament works because the Minister of the Budget and the Ministers’ Council in each of these administrations has a total say over the amount of money allocated to them. Today I can announce that we have arrived at and agreed on a formula that has been approved by the hon Minister of Finance. We have also negotiated it among the Chairmen of the three Ministers’ Councils, and the three administrations and Treasuries have agreed on it. The new allocations will be made in terms of this formula and at the first possible opportunity we will amend the Constitution to write that formula into the Constitution of South Africa. Therefore, for that hon member to say that there is no formula and that the hon Minister of Finance makes decisions is utter nonsense. In terms of the new formula hon members will see that there is a very strong independence and viability of the individual administrations.

The hon member should know that the Revenue Account, in all respects, is the same as the exchequer account in the central Government but that it has the advantage that surpluses that may accrue in this administration are not, as in any general affairs department, returned to the exchequer. In this administration they are returned to the Revenue Account and can be reallocated by the Ministers’ Council. The Ministers’ Council itself decides absolutely entirely upon the priorities in the prioritisation also of the surplus. So for that hon member to say that the hon Minister of Finance holds all the power is simply not true. The hon member has either forgotten how the system works or is saying these things with his tongue in his cheek. The fact is we have the formula, we have our own income and we have levies. As the hon member knows, we are also able to raise levies. There is great potential for raising further levies so that we can have further jurisdiction over our own moneys for particular things which may interest the White group predominantly. The hon member is again absolutely incorrect.

The hon member, however, goes on to criticise own affairs. He says that own affairs is simply a dishonest stratagem to discriminate against other races. That was what the hon member said. If it were true, it would be a very bad thing indeed for our country. Fortunately for us it is not true.

Own affairs can succeed in our country. I am being serious when I say this. I have had a year running the administration—the financial affairs—and therefore have had a very good look into all the elements of this administration. I have been in all formations of Government in my career, from being an MPC, through the whole story. It is my considered judgement that own affairs can succeed if it remains forward-looking, adaptable and part of the new emergent South Africa. Own affairs must not, by serving one group, obstruct another, or by responding to the aspirations of one group, give offence to another.

Own affairs should so serve a group that it does not lose sight of the individuals who comprise that group. Individual rights and group rights do not exclude each other. Own affairs can serve the predominant interests of a particular group, as we in fact serve the predominant interests of the White group but it must also always have the secondary role of serving others where necessary and of subordinating itself to the wider interests of a broader South Africa.

In order to be part of the new South Africa, own affairs will have to be limited, as all government will have to be limited, within the constraints, not only of what is desirable, but of what is affordable. That hon member will know the great test for South Africa, if we are going to allow this country to grow, is how to use the scarce capital and other resources of our country—how to stretch them—so that we can meet the aspirations of this country and so that we can develop this country to its full potential.

Limited as we are by scarce resources, own affairs administrations will have to continue to be thoughtful of the demands we make upon the central Government and the taxpayer. I am proud that this administration is in the next year going to provide all the services we provided last year—and better services—with only a 5,7% increase, a nominal increase, in our budget. In real terms the hon member will know that that means for less money. For less money and, for all practical purposes, with the same number of staff, we are going to provide those services.

I want to say to the hon members that this is the kind of thing we must be looking for in government because we in South Africa, unless we respond to the constraints that are upon us, are not going to win. Every one of us, in every department, must seek to achieve more, and do more, with less.

Own affairs must be a stream that flows into a greater South Africa. It must contribute to that stream, not pollute it. If we seek to achieve too much, we will sacrifice everything. If we have more modest objectives, we can be a spectacular success, build the concept out much further and make it a valuable and permanent feature of the new South Africa.

Finally, own affairs must not and does not erode but must endorse and underpin our commitment to democracy and democratic institutions, making its valuable contribution to a richer community life in the interests of all the people of this country—a community life that in turn can be shared and appreciated by all South Africans. I wanted to put that on record.

The hon member talks about duplication. I do not know if he did on this occasion but several hon members say own affairs results in duplication which is not affordable. I want to say that it is simply not true. In respect of the 44 hospitals that have come to this administration, although the finance and some of the administration now fall under this administration, the running has been delegated back to the provinces on an agency basis. [Interjections.]

The museums, although they serve the predominant interests of the White group, are open to other groups. The libraries, although they serve the predominant interests of this group are open to other groups. [Interjections.] If it suits him, that hon member has one argument, when it does not suit him, he has another.

The fact is that this administration is very aware of the need not to duplicate unless it is absolutely necessary and not to duplicate unless there are very, very good reasons for doing so.

The hon parliamentary leader of the DP opposition sits here. I want to tell him that he should not be sitting here. He should be out in the constituencies, drumming up support because the other part of the Hydra-headed leadership of the DP—Dr Worrall—is out stomping around. He is not fighting the NP seats. He is addressing meetings in all the PFP constituencies. Why is that? He is not fighting us in this election. Dr Worrall is using this election to become the Leader of the Official Opposition. He is not standing in the Helderberg constituency. Where is Worrall the big Nat killer, the giant killer and the man who is going to shake the NP? He ran away from the hon member for Helderberg. [Interjections.] He knew the hon member for Helderberg would beat him, so he ran away from him. [Interjections.] Where is this Nat killer now? Where is the giant killer now? He is looking for the safest PFP seat in the safest area he can possibly find.

Do you want Barend’s job?

No, I am after nobody’s job.

This Dr Worrall, the big Nat killer, is running away. He has got as far away as possible from the NP as he could. I know that gentleman Dr Worrall. He is stomping around and he made a little turn in my constituency, but he could not fill the smallest hall in the constituency, and then he scooted again. He was only there, however, to drum up the support of the few PFP delegates at the congress so that he can grasp the leadership from the hon member Dr De Beer. [Interjections.]

That hon member for Claremont is laughing. I want to make a little prediction. In this election that hon member is not going to be invited in any PFP constituency to make an election speech. Nobody will invite him. We will see the parliamentary face of the DP. [Interjections.] We will not see their extra-parliamentary face. [Interjections.]

If the hon member has plenty of spare time for speaking engagements, we on this side of the House will invite him to come and speak in our constituencies. We will invite him, pay his expenses, pay for his billboards, give him advanced publicity and circulate his speeches. We will be delighted to do this. All those free evenings which the hon member for Claremont is going to have he can please come and utilise in our constituencies. [Interjections.]

I would like to thank the hon member for Rustenburg for his contribution. [Interjections.]

*We are going to miss the hon member for Fauresmith. [Interjections.]

Mr Speaker, on a point of order: An hon member—I am not quite sure who he was—said to the hon member for Claremont that his was the voice of the Kremlin. I submit that that is not parliamentary.

Order! That is not unparliamentary. The hon the Minister may proceed.

We will miss the penetrating analysis and logical political argument of the hon member for Fauresmith. We are glad to know that he will not be lost to politics, but will be of greater service to the province which he loves the most, the Orange Free State. I certainly look forward to visiting him there. [Interjections.]

*I have replied to the hon member for Losberg. I am not going to allow him to drive a wedge between my hon colleague and myself. Personally I like the hon member. I hope he comes and visits us after the election. I hope he does not come back as a member, but I do hope that he will drop in and pay us a visit.

He spoke about the Reserve Bank and the illegal outflow of money. If I understood him correctly he said:

I do not know whether he meant the hon the Minister of Finance—

I was speaking about the new leader-in-chief of the NP. Why did he not do anything about it?

The hon member is asking why nothing was done about the illegal outflow of capital. My voice is not all that good today, but I would advise the hon member—he could even obtain it from me, and if my private secretary will just make a note of it, I shall send it to him—to read the speech made by Dr Gerhard de Kock on 6 February this year. Has the hon member read it? [Interjections.] Surely he knows that the Reserve Bank is the controlling body. This being so, he must not say that the Government has done nothing. He would do well to read what is written there. Dr De Kock said, and I quote:

He then went on to enumerate the steps that had been taken to increase this effectiveness. I quote further:

†He goes on to say:

He then talks about the recommendations made by the Harms Commission. He says that some of these have already been implemented and that others will be implemented. Then he talks about an amendment that was made to the Banks Act. He talks about the results of meetings of the Multilateral Technical Committee on Finance between the TBVC countries and ourselves and about steps for tightening up control that were taken. He then goes on to say:

And so one can go on. This speech is full to the brim of steps that have been taken in order to stop this kind of thing.

I have something to say to the hon member about exchange control. There is an old saying that money is fungible. If people want to get their money out of the country and they are prepared to pay a discount, there is very little one can do to stop it. The best thing we can do to stop money going out of the country is to apply the right monetary policies, the right fiscal policies and the right constitutional policies. We should work towards creating government by consent, a peaceful society and a nation with common objectives and a sense of purpose. Those are the things we must strive for, those are the things that we on this side of the House are working towards and those are the things which—I say this with respect—that hon member’s party is trying to make impossible for South Africa. They are sowing divisiveness, hate and scorn. They are trying to perpetuate policies which are outdated, have no place in our society and which simply raise the temperature of the national debate. There is no way that all the steps in the world which could be taken would ever be a substitute, ultimately, for the correct policies to be followed and for a country that is at peace with itself. We will be working towards that and in this election we will be spelling out our programme of where we will be taking South Africa in the future.

*The hon member for Soutpansberg said that the NP had been striving for years to counter sanctions. He asked what good this had done, and I hope that I have quoted him correctly. I shall tell him what good it has done.

†After the Dellums Bill in 1986 our non-gold exports went down. With the assistance of the private sector we quietly and efficiently helped industry and commerce to organise itself where necessary. Over the past year our exports went up by 25% and this year we are expecting them to go up even further.

*A11 our work has helped to save our economy, despite all the nonsense spoken by hon members on that side of the House. I want to say that if the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs has had one success—I am talking to the hon member of the CP, who has an interest in the field of foreign affairs—then it is the national consensus that has been built up in South Africa with regard to the entire issue of sanctions.

†A national consensus has been built up right across colour lines that sanctions are bad for all the people of South Africa. That is a great success and that message is increasingly being heard in world forums.

*I want to thank the hon member for Klip River for the fine words he addressed to me. I greatly appreciate them because the hon member is the chairman of our group. The hon member performs his work there in a wonderful manner.

The hon member for Sasolburg spoke like a member who was going to return. We look forward to seeing him here again. [Interjections.]

The hon the Leader of the Official Opposition—I see he is sitting here now—is going overseas one of these days. We want to wish him everything of the best for his visit.

†I hope he has a safe return and a pleasant trip. Is this an official visit? Is this visit on public money? Are you going in your official capacity as Leader of the Official Opposition or are you going in your private capacity? [Interjections.] Is the hon member going in his private capacity? I want to know. I have a right. I am a member of this Parliament and the position of Leader of the Official Opposition is a very important position in this Parliament. Just as it is important for that hon member to know what I as a Minister is doing—and he has a right to know—I have a right to know what the hon Leader of the Official Opposition is doing. It is a very simple question: Is it a private visit or is it an official visit? Are you going as the Leader of the Official Opposition or are you going as Andries Treumicht? You do not know yet? You have not decided?

The day you became leader of the Official Opposition, my friend, you took certain responsibilities to behave like the Leader of the Official Opposition. I tell you why I am asking—and I ask this with great sincerity—only you for the moment will know what is on your programme.

Mr Speaker, on a point of order: Is it permissible for an hon Minister to address another member of the House in such personal terms?

I am very sorry. I have great respect for his office. The office of Leader of the Official Opposition is a very important one. Just as I am opposed to hon members going to visit people like the ANC—who want to blow up other South Africans—he is also against it.

†I am just as much against it.

What impertinence!

If that hon member has on his itinerary visits to or talks with hard-line right-wingers, to rightwing organisations, which are just as dangerous to South Africa, if not more dangerous, I would like to know. I would like to know who he is visiting when he is going overseas. I would like to know if he is speaking to the New Right in France. I want to know.

Mr Speaker, may I ask the hon the Minister a question?

No. I want to know.

†He can publish his itinerary and if he is innocent then there is no argument.

How much money do you have in the bank?

I want to know whom he is going to visit when he goes overseas. I wish him well. If I can help him in any way with information to make it possible I would like to do that. But I ask him not to fall into the trap. I am giving him advice and if the advice is not required then I am glad but do not fall into the trap or fall into the hands of a lot of rightwing lunatics in Europe because they have their lunatics just as we have ours. [Interjections.] Stay away from them!

Order! Hon members must give the hon the Minister a fair chance to complete his speech. The hon the Minister may continue.

We are going out from here into a general election. The people of South Africa are seeking solutions to this country’s great problems and I think the people of South Africa understand that the hope for South Africa is this new young leader F W de Klerk. [Interjections.] I am sure that in their hearts the people of South Africa know…

That he is still sitting on the fence! [Interjections.]

… that the next five to ten years are going to be critical years in the life of this nation. They also know—for better or for worse—that the DP is not going to be the governing party in South Africa.

Certainly not!

The people of South Africa know that the CP is also not going to govern this country. [Interjections.] The following question then arises. If we are going through difficult years, years of challenge, years of potential conflict, years of financial challenge, and also years of demographic challenges, with 60% of our population being under the age of 20 years and with an urbanisation rate of 7,5% per year, it is necessary that South Africans should ask themselves whether they want this young leader to have a strong mandate or a weak mandate.

For what? [Interjections.]

Do they want to inspire him? Do they want to encourage him or do they want to discourage him?

To do what? [Interjections.]

Do they want to give him the strength to do the job or do they want to make his very, very difficult job impossible?

What job? [Interjections.]

That is indeed what we want to do! We want own affairs to come to naught! [Interjections.]

South Africa cannot afford a hung Parliament with a Dr Denis Worrall sitting here trying to tell us whether he is going to support the Government or not. [Interjections.] South Africa is not going to produce a hung Parliament. [Interjections.] South Africa is going to produce a strong mandate for reform for the sake of this young leader of the NP. [Interjections.]

The English-speaking people in particular are going to support the NP as never before. [Interjections.] The DP remains the party of the mink and manure belts. [Interjections.] The DP…

Where do you live? [Interjections.]

I live in a mink and manure belt. I live in that hon member’s constituency. I am going to vote against the hon member. [Interjections.] The DP is an open party. Anybody can join the DP. As Lord Carson said, and I paraphrase, the DP, like the Mount Nelson Hotel, is open to everyone. [Interjections.] That Hydra-headed DP is too weak and too divided to play any really significant role. [Interjections.]

I want to say that there are inspiring things happening in our society. The Law Commission Report, which I would have liked to talk about today, is going to provide a new lodestar in our political life. It is going to become a new focal point in the national debate. We will go out from here and we will come back with a rousing majority for the hon leader of the NP. [Interjections.]

Debate concluded.

Question put. That the Bill be now read a second time.

Division demanded.

Declarations of vote:

Mr Speaker, there is a tradition that has existed in Parliament over many years, in terms of which one votes against the Second Reading of an appropriation Bill in order to voice one’s objection to whatever the Government may have done wrong. That is the way in which one puts one’s case.

There is, however, also a tradition that in the final vote which takes place—it used to be at Third Reading; it is now at Second Reading—one does not vote against the final reading of an appropriation Bill. We are not going to break that tradition. We are going to vote for this measure, and we are going to do it because we believe in that tradition. We also know that if an appropriation Bill is turned down at the final reading there will be no money for the pensioners, there will be no money for the services, and the only time one does that is if one wants to have an election.

We have an election coming. There is no logic in breaking that tradition, and as far as we are concerned, we believe in the traditions of Parliament and we will not break them. [Interjections.] That does not mean that we have changed our politics, or that we support the concept of own affairs. It does not mean that we now abandon any of the criticism we have voiced; on the contrary, we can state all that criticism once again. However, there are certain things in Parliament that are done and there are certain things which are not done, and we believe that the traditions of Parliament must be upheld. This is not the correct way to do it. We will therefore support this Appropriation Bill to see that there is money to keep the country going until there is an election and then the electorate will decide who is to govern the country. [Interjections.]

Mr Speaker, we on this side of the House will not let either the hon member for Yeoville or his party prescribe to us what stand to take on any Bill whatsoever. [Interjections.] He need not pontificate to us.

What is more, it is very obvious that the overtures are already starting. One is already hearing sounds of a hung Parliament coming from both the DP and the NP. [Interjections.] There are already flirtations going on in view of coalition after the election.

Of the left wing, yes!

Mr Speaker, we do not support the Bill, for the following reasons. Firstly, owing to the absolute arrogance which prevails among hon members of both the Ministers’ Council and the Cabinet, as reflected today by the hon the Minister of the Budget and Works and the hon the Deputy Minister of Finance.

The hon the Minister of the Budget and Works displayed absolute arrogance, audacity and conceit in the extreme in his question to my hon leader with regard to a possible overseas visit. The NP, and specifically the hon the Minister, need not prescribe to us on this side of the House what to do in what instances. [Interjections.] We know the rules and we know what to do. [Interjections.] We shall act in the correct manner at all times. [Interjections.]

Secondly, I want to refer to the hon the Deputy Minister of Finance. I am pleased that the hon the Minister of the Budget and Works supports and endorses him, and is not prepared to repudiate him. The hon the Minister is not prepared to do to the hon the Deputy Minister what Die Burger did to the hon the Deputy Minister. I think this hon Minister, as well as the hon the leader of the NP, must take cognisance of the albatross which the hon the Deputy Minister of Finance has become to the NP. [Interjections.] He is hanging like a dead albatross around the neck of the NP. Die Burger identifies him as a fumbler (misvanger). I do not know what is amusing the retiring, fugitive hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning… [Time expired.]

Mr Speaker, I want to thank the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition and the hon member for Yeoville for the way in which they uphold the tradition and conventions of this Place and for the good manners displayed by their party. I am not surprised at the attitude which the Official Opposition is adopting, because they are not builders. They are destroyers. [Interjections.]

Yes, we are going to destroy the NP.

And the elderly people as well!

They are not preservers. They are demolishers and destroyers. [Interjections.] That is typical of the way they practise politics, and this has once again been revealed here.

They hate elderly people!

As a result of the enlightening and inspiring reply made by the hon the Minister—we thank him for it—and in view of the fact that no criticism with regard to any aspect of the appropriation has been expressed in the Second Reading debate on this Appropriation Bill, as well as the fact that demand is at a far lower level than the inflation rate, which consequently attests to strict financial discipline, this side of the House supports this Appropriation Bill. [Interjections.]

The House divided:

AYES—115: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, J M; Badenhorst, P J; Bartlett, G S; Blanché, J P I; Bloomberg, S G; Bosman, J F; Botha, C J van R; Botha, J C G; Brazelle, J A; Burrows, R M; Chait, E J; Christophers, D; Clase, P J; Coetzer, PW; Cronjé, P C; Cunningham, J H; Dalling, D J; De Beer, Z J; De Klerk, F W; Delport, J T; De Villiers, D J; Dilley, L H M; Durr, K D S; Edwards, B V; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrell, P J; Fick, L H; Fismer, C L; Fourie, A; Gastrow, P H P; Geldenhuys, B L; Graaff, D de V; Grobler, A C A C; Grobler, P G W; Hardingham, R W; Hattingh, C P; Heine, W J; Heunis, J C; Hugo, P F; Hulley, R R; Hunter, JE L; Jager, R; Jooste, J A; Jordaan, A L; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kotzé, G J; Kriel, H J; Kruger, T A P; Lemmer, J J; Le Roux, D E T; Lorimer, R J; Louw, E v d M; Louw, I; Louw, M H; Malcomess, D J N; Malherbe, G J; Marais, G; Marais, P G; Maré, P L; Maree, J W; Matthee, J C; Matthee, P A; Mentz, J H W; Meyer, A T; Meyer, W D; Myburgh, G B; Nel, P J C; Niemann, J J; Nothnagel, A E; Odendaal, W A; Olivier, P J S; Oosthuizen, G C; Pretorius, J F; Pretorius, P H; Rabie, J; Redinger, R E; Schoeman, R S; Schoeman, S J (Walmer); Schwarz, H H; Smit, F P; Smith, H J; Snyman, A J J; Steenkamp, P J; Steyn, P T; Streicher, D M; Swanepoel, J J; Swanepoel, K D; Swanepoel, P J; Terblanche, A J WPS; Van Breda, A; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Walt, A T; Van Deventer, F J; Van de Vyver, J H; Van Eck, J; Van Gend, D P de K; Van Gend, J B de R; Van Heerden, F J; Van Rensburg, H M J; Van Vuuren, L M J; Van Wyk, J A; Van Zyl, J G; Veldman, M H; Venter, A A; Vilonel, J J; Walsh, J J; Welgemoed, P J.

Tellers: Kritzinger, W T; Ligthelm, C J; Golden, S G A; Maree, M D; Schoeman, S J (Sunnyside); Schoeman, W J.

NOES—18: Coetzee, H J; De Jager, C D; De Ville, J R; Gerber, A; Jacobs, S C; Langley, T; Mentz, MJ; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Paulus, P J; Prinsloo, J J S; Schoeman, C B; Treumicht, A P; Uys, C; Van Vuuren, S P; Van Wyk, W J D.

Tellers: Le Roux, F J; Van der Merwe, J H.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a second time.

Mr Speaker, I move without notice:

For the information of the House, I have been told by the Secretary to Parliament that he has been informed that a proclamation will appear on 30 May which will dissolve Parliament on 31 May. The motion does not mean, therefore, that hon members need present themselves on 1 June.

Mr Speaker, as this is the last opportunity to do so during this session, I should like to express a few words of thanks—first of all, to you. When you became Speaker, I made so bold as to say that I hoped that you would not require the full measure of your patience with regard to certain hon members on my side. I hope that you have not had to use its full measure.

I do want to say in all confidence, however, if you will pardon the pun, that you were worthy, in full measure (volle lengte), of the dignity of a Speaker. Whenever you entered this House, or anywhere else, you were always a model of neatness and—I almost said charm—dignity. We pay tribute to you for that.

This went hand in hand with the way in which you occupied the Chair—with a certain serenity. I have seen in other Parliaments how a Speaker sometimes shouts at those present. I cannot remember you ever having done so, but you did, to an increasing extent as time went by, combine that serenity with firmness.

I also want to make mention of the fact that I think we can all attest to the tolerance which you displayed towards hon members—a little more towards some than towards others, wherever necessary. We want to thank you most sincerely for that, and we hope that you will have a good period of rest after today’s adjournment.

That also applies to the chairmen of the Houses. One of our chairmen is leaving us, and I want to say the same to him, namely that we acceded to his maintenance of order in this House with great appreciation, and that he did so in a very efficient and courteous manner. That applies to the other chairmen as well.

May I express a brief word of sincere gratitude to the hon the Leader of the House and the Whips, who had a very great task in ensuring that the business of this House and of Parliament ran smoothly. We thank them most sincerely.

We express our sincere gratitude to the Secretary to Parliament, Mr De Kock, and the other officials—those of Hansard, the service officers and everyone else—and particularly to the Secretary and his staff, who had to make a good job of attending to everything under difficult circumstances, sometimes also when Parliament sat elsewhere in extended committees. We want to thank them for this and to congratulate them on it.

We would like to convey our best wishes to those hon members who have decided to retire and who will not be returning. We are mindful of the fact that according to certain announcements, by the hon the leader-in-chief of the NP as well, the hon the State President will not be coming back again. He is a man who has left the stamp of a lifetime’s work on South African politics, and he has done many good things. We did not always agree, but we wish him a further improvement insofar as his health is concerned.

The senior hon Minister in the Cabinet has also decided to retire—with even more drama, one might almost say. We on our side had quite a good nickname for him. We called him the “head boy”, and I think that in many respects he was the head boy. We on this side of the House will probably grapple for a long time to come with certain of the hall-marks he has left on the constitutional dispensation. We shall remember him, even if it is with somewhat mixed feelings.

However, our sincere gratitude goes to him and his hon colleagues in the Cabinet who are retiring, as well as to other colleagues in the House of Assembly who will not be coming back—some gladly, some of their own volition and others perhaps a little less voluntarily. Perhaps we shall have to give some of them a little push on 6 September, but we on this side of the House convey our sincere gratitude to all our colleagues, as well as our appreciation for their contributions towards maintaining this Parliament and making it a worthy institution. Thank you very much once again, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, this being one of the somewhat infrequent occasions on which the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition and I have exactly similar sentiments to express, I can be somewhat briefer in associating hon members in these benches with what he has expressed.

Our thanks to you, Sir, for having presided over our deliberations, guided the House in its proceedings and maintained the necessary order to enable us to do our work. We are grateful to you for all this.

We associate with you the Chairman of Committees and in particular the Chairman of this House, the hon member for Pretoria West, who has announced his retirement. We thank him in particular for the kindness and the delicacy with which he has presided over all that we have done. We are most grateful. The other chairmen likewise have, our gratitude for their part in making this institution work.

Then in particular a word of very great appreciation to the Secretary and to his staff, all the sometimes incredibly expert people who make Parliament run as it does run by their great knowledge, understanding, tact and courtesy. We thank them for all these things.

Likewise we would express our best wishes to all hon members who will not be back for the following session of Parliament, both those about whom we already know, and those about whom we do not yet know. Whoever they may be, it has been good to be in this collegial relationship with them and we wish them everything of the best in the future.

Mr Speaker, this is a memorable and historic occasion for this House, in that my departure from these premises will herald the disappearance of a party that I will be taking to its final destiny.

It has been a great privilege and a pleasure for me to have been elected a member of this auspicious Parliament and to have served it for eight years. I have very reluctantly come to the final decision that I shall not be making myself available during the next election.

May I just say thank you to you, Sir, to the Chairman of the House and to the Chairman of Committees. I thank you in particular, Sir, for the understanding and the assistance that you have always given me. As the hon member for Houghton will know, to serve a party, as the one and only member, as it were, is indeed a unique experience, and it requires a lot of understanding on the part of those in your position to make it, shall we say, tenable.

I wish to thank too those people in the Press who have been very kind to me. I wish to thank the Secretary to Parliament and the officials. I do not want to forget those very gracious people who run messages in the corridors of Parliament. Those messengers are so often forgotten, and I want just to pay tribute to them, and in particular to those messengers with whom I have been in close contact.

I thank you once again, Sir, for the co-operation that I have received. It is obviously with a sense of regret that one leaves this establishment.

Mr Speaker, we on this side of the House associate ourselves with the good wishes that have been expressed by the hon leaders of the opposition parties, as well as with those of the hon member for Mooi River.

Mr Speaker, we would also just like to address a special word of thanks to you. In addition, we also address a word of thanks to our Chairman of the House, who is to retire, as well as to those who assisted him in the Chair. By the dignified manner in which you have maintained order in the House, you and the others who assist you have once again made a positive contribution towards maintaining democracy in South Africa in accordance with its best traditions. We subjected ourselves freely at all times to the rulings relating to the maintenance of order that were given by you, the Chairman of the House and his colleagues, since they were always of a high quality.

We also wish to thank the Secretary, Mr De Kock, Mr Douglas and their entire team, who play a special role here in our midst, most sincerely for the efficient service we have received from them. The Leader of the House often has to lean heavily upon the technical advice and support of the Secretariat of Parliament. For this reason, as Leader of the House, I should like to personally thank them most sincerely for the fact that their doors are always open and for the fact that they have never spared any trouble in assisting me or hon members on our side of the House whenever they were requested to do so.

We also want to sincerely thank the Chief Service Officer, Mr Schuin, and everyone who assists him in such a loyal and friendly manner in catering to every need of every hon member of the House. [Interjections.] We should also like to thank Gen De Witt of the SA Police for safeguarding the premises of Parliament. We were at all times able to go about our business here undisturbed and in safety. Our thanks also go to Mr Esterhuizen and the catering staff for their excellent service, the staff of Hansard, the people of the SA Transport Services and the Post Office, who assisted us with the personal services and reservations of hon members.

A very special word of thanks to the reporters in the Press gallery. The quality of reporting during this session of Parliament was of a high standard. We are particularly appreciative of the key role which the Press plays in the business of Parliament and in the maintenance and promotion of a pure democracy, which is characterised by integrity.

As Leader of the House, I should like to address a special word of thanks to the Whips. I am not going to praise our hon Whips at length now because we have already done so in caucus. I should like to address a special word of thanks to the hon the Chief Whip of Parliament. I do not think everyone realises what a key role he plays in ensuring that matters run smoothly under the new parliamentary dispensation. In his able manner, quietly and without claiming any credit, he has set a particularly high standard for whoever succeeds him one day. We hope that we shall only have to talk about such a thing much later on, because we still need him.

A very sincere word of thanks also goes to the hon member for Kimberley South and the Whips on both sides of the House for their support. When we look back on this session of Parliament, I think we can say that together we always ensured that the business of Parliament ran smoothly. After all, that is what is ultimately at issue when we refer to the service of the Whips. Our sincere gratitude to everyone.

Quite a number of the hon members of all the parties have indicated that they will not be coming back. Their names are too numerous to mention. Neither do I wish to address a word to hon colleagues in the Cabinet now. We shall have another opportunity to do so in another connection. I should like to pay tribute, as parliamentarians, to everyone who is retiring today. There is not one hon member who has announced his retirement who was not, in terms of his talents, a parliamentarian through and through and who did not maintain the best traditions of Parliament.

We cannot mention them all by name, but I do think it is fitting that we should briefly mention the names of those in the front benches who are going to leave Parliament. Under the parliamentary system one does not simply end up in the front benches. One has to prove oneself in quite a number of elections, as well as here in the melting pot of debate and aggression. One often has to prove oneself under the most difficult circumstances. For this reason our front benchers are all men, and one lady, who have really left their mark on South African politics and who have stood the test of time in an excellent manner. For this reason we would like to pay tribute—if I may move around this way from the opposite side—to those parliamentarians who are going to leave us, namely the hon members for Houghton, Berea, Brentwood, Fauresmith, Umfolozi, Worcester, Bellville, Innesdal, Walvis Bay and Wonderboom. We also pay tribute to the hon the Minister of Agriculture and Water Supply, the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning, the hon the Minister of Home Affairs and the Chairman of the House. Each one of them has made a special contribution to Parliament in his own way.

†Some of the hon members on all sides have straddled the stage of political debate in this Parliament with great effectiveness. Some of them have imprinted their personalities on this House and some of them have left a positive legacy of democracy in South Africa. We thank them for that and we wish each and every one of them everything of the best when they leave the precinct of Parliament.

In closing, reference has been made to the historical significance of this day. The NP started its remarkable record of government on 26 May. [Interjections.] In lighter vein, because the hon leaders of the opposition parties did not use this opportunity to address a political debate, I want to say that as we have reached 41 years as the majority party, our next goal is 50 years. We will do so by hitting the opposition for a six on 6 September and for at least a four in the round thereafter. [Interjections.]

*A dramatic 103 days lie ahead for all of us. In 103 days’ time, it will all be over. The NP will use every one of these days to state its case positively and constructively. I hope that other parties will do the same and that we shall give democracy in South Africa a boost by way of the standard of the campaign which we shall wage.

That will be very pleasant!

It is true that our country is going through very grave times, and every citizen is asked to give of his best and to reach out towards solutions. I do not believe there is any difference of opinion in this House insofar as this is concerned. I believe that the best thing we could do for South Africa would be to attempt to unite people behind the positive objectives that we are offering them. I hope we shall pass that test in the coming election campaign so that we shall be able, on the path to the year 2000, to direct South Africa towards a positive future.

We wish all members everything of the best. May their return journey be a safe one and may things go well for hon members on this side of the House who are going to wage their campaigns. We do not wish misfortune upon the other hon members, but I should like to say that we would not like them to fare particularly well.

On a personal level I want to thank all hon members. During this session of Parliament everyone has co-operated to make this particular House a House of which South Africa can be proud.

Order! It gives me pleasure to say a few words as well. My sincere thanks go to hon members, the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition, the hon Parliamentary leader of the DP, the hon member for Mooi River and the hon the Leader of the House for their kind words to the Secretary and the staff of Parliament. We should be very grateful for the fact that we have such a good team of officials who serve and support us in the difficult task which we have. I should like to acknowledge my sincere gratitude and appreciation to the Secretary and all the members of the Parliamentary staff for the service which they render to Parliament.

†The hon member for Mooi River will forgive me if I sound a little sentimental when I say that those of us who were raised under the old United Party as the governing party and who served in this House with the United Party as the Official Opposition, share the view that it is indeed sad to take leave of the last representative of the United Party in Parliament.

*I just want to tell the hon member for Mooi River that today is also a special day for many other hon members who served with him in that great party in their day, to take cognisance of the fact that he has decided not to make himself eligible for re-election.

I should like to wish all hon members a safe journey home. We have already said the necessary to one another on previous occasions.

Before I adjourn the House, I should like to express my particular gratitude to the hon the Leader of the House, the Whips of the various parties and all hon members for the support which all representatives of the Chair have enjoyed with regard to the smooth running of business, and particularly also for the pleasant and positive spirit in which this session was able to take place. It has really been a privilege for me to act as Speaker this year. It has always been pleasant to officiate in each of the three Houses, and particularly this House. I thank hon members very much for their co-operation.

I trust that all those hon members who have decided to retire, will enjoy restful years and good health in the future and that things will go very well for all of them. I hope that those of us who have decided to make ourselves eligible for re-election, will experience a happy and successful election. For all those of us who wall be fortunate enough to come back, it will be a privilege to meet one another in this House again after 6 September.

I should like to wish all hon members everything of the best and to extend my best wishes to their families.

Debate concluded.

Question agreed to.

Mr Chairman, it is a good thing that there are opportunities such as these when provision can be made in this way by the Bill for our aged, the pensioners who perhaps feel that they have been wronged or have not always been treated correctly.

We are grateful to be able to say from our side of the House that we support this Bill and we hope that those people will be happy when they receive their fair share.

Mr Chairman… [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Robertson was a few seconds late, but he may proceed now.

Mr Chairman, I apologise to the House. As regards the legislation, I merely want to say that we support it.

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure and a privilege to support and submit this Bill. Permit me to thank the members of the joint committee for the co-operation and the understanding which they show as well as for the compassion and the good, sound common sense.

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.

Mr Chairman, we are still opposed to this Bill, mainly for the following reasons: To begin with, we believe that clause 2 is too wide, and that it will be very difficult for anybody to challenge in court the decision of the State President to add any territory to a self-governing state if he deems it expedient, because it will be very difficult for any litigant to prove that the State President did not deem it expedient.

The only possibility is that a litigant may be able to prove that the State President acted without consulting the Cabinet of the particular self-governing territory. That may now be possible because clause 2(3) has been omitted from the Bill. We approve of that as that was one of the amendments we moved.

The Bill does not provide for consultation with the people concerned and it does not provide for Parliament to be consulted in the event of any piece of land being added to a self-governing territory.

As I have said previously, to move people without their consent is tyranny. I believe the arguments of some individuals—I think the hon member for Bloemfontein North has on occasion put forward the view that a number of groups in Botshabelo have expressed the desire to be incorporated into Qwaqwa, or that the incorporation is important in order to register motor cars or marriages—to be fatuous.

We are not saying that an area must not be incorporated. However, we are saying that the people of Botshabelo, or any other people, have to be consulted before this action is undertaken. This Bill does not provide for that eventuality. We believe it is an extremely bad Bill. We believe it is going to cause enormous tensions and enormous problems. In Botshabelo there are 600 000 people who are going to be added to Qwaqwa, where they have a population of 180 000 according to the latest South Africa Year Book issued by the Department of Foreign Affairs, and we believe it is going to cause great tensions and problems.

I must ask, if people are so happy to be incorporated into Qwaqwa, why it is that they go to court; why is it that they go to the Supreme Court to stop the Government from forcing them to be incorporated into an area into which they do not wish to be incorporated? We will oppose the Bill.

Mr Chairman, I would like to say that the hon member for Houghton looks very sweet today. We wish her well.

*Divergent court findings during the past few years with regard to the incorporation of certain areas into self-governing territories creates legal uncertainty for these areas and the people who live there in that the incorporation is undone retrospectively. My party and I support the Bill as amended by the proposals of the hon the Deputy Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning because it is essential that Parliament create legal certainty by means of legislation with regard to incorporations that have been concluded, as well as future additions to and changes in the territory of self-governing territories.

†It should be emphasized that this Bill only empowers the hon the State President to incorporate a Black area as defined in the Black Authorities Act of 1951 into the area of a self-governing territory. This point was explained in great detail by the hon the Deputy Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning during the debate. The Bill brings about legal certainty regarding the areas of self-governing territories and also addresses the question of Moutse and Botshabelo which is in the interests of the administration of those areas and of the people living there.

For this reason my party and I give the Bill as amended by the hon the Deputy Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning our full support.

Question put to House of Representatives: That the Alteration of Boundaries of Self-Governing Territories Bill [B 76—89 (GA)] be now read a second time.

A quorum not being present,

Decision of question postponed.

Question put to House of Delegates: That the Alteration of Boundaries of Self-Governing Territories Bill [B 76—89 (GA)] be now read a second time.

Bill rejected.

The House of Assembly divided:

AYES—113: Aucamp J M; Badenhorst P J; Bekker H J; Blanché J P I; Bloomberg S G; Bosman J F; Botha C J v R; Botha J C G; Brazelle J A; Chait E J; Christophers D; Coetsee H J; Coetzee H J; Coetzer P W; Cunningham J H; De Jager C D; De Klerk F W; De Ville J R; Delport J T; Durr K D S; Edwards B V; Farrell P J; Fick L H; Fismer C L; Fourie A; Geldenhuys B L; Gerber A; Golden S G A; Graaff D de V; Grobler A C A C; Grobler P G W; Hattingh C P; Heine W J; Heyns J H; Hugo P F; Hunter J E L; Jacobs S C; Jager R; Jooste J A; Jordaan A L; Koornhof N J J v R; Kriel H J; Kritzinger W T; Kruger T A P; Langley T; Le Roux D E T; Lemmer J J; Ligthelm C J; Louw I; Louw M H; Malherbe G J; Marais G; Marais P G; Maree J W; Maree M D; Matthee J C; Matthee P A; Meiring J W H; Mentz J H W; Mentz M J; Meyer A T; Meyer W D; Mulder C P; Mulder P W A; Myburgh G B; Niemann J J; Nothnagel A E; Odendaal W A; Oosthuizen G C; Paulus P J; Pretorius J F; Pretorius P H; Prinsloo J J S; Rabie J; Radue R J; Redinger R E; Scheepers J HL; Schoeman C B; Schoeman R S; Schoeman S J (Sunnyside); Schoeman S J (Walmer); Schoeman W J; Smit H A; Smith H J; Snyman A J J; Steenkamp P J; Steyn P T; Streicher D M; Swanepoel J J; Swanepoel K D; Swanepoel P J; Terblanche A J W P S; Treurnicht A P; Uys C; Van Breda A; Van de Vyver J H; Van der Merwe A S; Van der Merwe C J; Van der Merwe J H; Van Deventer F J; Van Gend D P de K; Van Heerden F J; Van Rensburg H M J; Van Vuuren L MJ; Van Vuuren S P; Van Wyk J A; Van Wyk W J D; Van Zyl J G; Veldman M H; Venter A A; Vilonel J J; Vlok A J; Welgemoed P J.

NOES—20: Andrew K M; Burrows R M; Cronjé P C; Dalling D J; De Beer Z J; Eglin C W; Ellis M J; Gastrow P H P; Hardingham R W; Hulley R R; Malan W C; Malcomess D J N; Schwarz H H; Soal P G; Suzman H; Swart R A F; Van der Merwe S S; Van Eck J; Van Gend J B de R; Walsh J J.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a second time.

Mr Chairman, the CP rejects this Bill because the system of postal votes has been made an integral part of it. History has shown that postal votes lead to many abuses and our party in particular has suffered as a result. [Interjections.] I need only refer hon members to the court cases which arose from elections and in which many people to my right in the House were charged. We had the case of Hillbrow. Exploitation of the aged took place. That is why we shall vote against the Bill.

There are other aspects with which we agree. [Interjections.]

Order! No, the hon member must be granted an opportunity to make his speech. The hon member may proceed.

We agree with aspects such as increased penalties and we are pleased that people who sabotage posters for instance are now being clamped down upon by means of high penalties, because we have suffered a great deal in this respect too.

This Bill deals with the rules of the game. It is interesting to see that numbers of players will not be taking part in this game again. Some retired voluntarily. Others retired because they knew they would lose and others will be eliminated by my party at the polling booth.

†I wish to say to the hon member for Houghton that she has played her part…

Helen, I am talking to you. [Interjections.] This lady has played her very important part for almost a third of this century and I wish to state today that at all times she was a lady. She is one hell of a woman and we will miss her.

*In conclusion, today, 26 May, is an historic day. It is the day on which the NP has been in power for 41 years. [Interjections.] Today that party is a disabled party which is totally different from the one which was elected initially. The soul, that is nationalism, has gone from that party. The CP has it. That soul of nationalism is flowing through South Africa like winds of change which are heading for 6 September when, with nationalism in our hearts, we are going to annihilate this torn new NP at the ballot box. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, the amendments brought about to the Bill in the joint committee after the First Reading debate, we believe bring about improvements although not all the amendments…

Order! I do not think the hon member for Overvaal can praise the hon member for Houghton on the one hand, and intimidate hon members on the other hand. [Interjections.] The hon member for Cape Town Gardens may proceed.

We believe that major defects remain in the Act and the system. There are three defects I wish to draw attention to.

Firstly, there is the lack of clarity in respect of who is entitled to postal votes. I think the hon member for Overvaal has also made mention of the system of postal votes. I do not believe that the words now proposed to be used in that section of the Act bring about any improvement whatsoever. It is, I believe, an unfortunate state of affairs that postal votes will continue to play an unhealthy role in the electoral system.

Secondly, there is in our view inadequate provision for parties to have access to postal vote and special vote applications to be able to prevent irregularities and fraud. We do not believe that the provisions are sufficient as provided for at present.

Thirdly, while we are fully in favour of people who deface posters or interfere with other people’s election material being severely punished, we believe that the excessive penalties provided for in respect of this, compared with the penalties provided for in respect of fraud and interfering with the electoral process, are completely out of line. While a couple of hon members may feel personally offended about the bad behaviour of some people I do not think that is sufficient reason to have these enormous penalties—five times as large a fine or as long a potential prison sentence for pulling down some posters compared with interfering with the electoral process or of being involved in fraud.

Nevertheless, we believe that the amending Bill as a whole brings about improvements in the Electoral Act. We will be supporting it.

Mr Chairman, on this historic day 41 years on, we who still stand proudly by the NP and do not flee from the problematic aspects of South Africa, who have not become weak-kneed and deserted the NP, are grateful for the opportunity to support a further series of changes and improvements to the Electoral Act, as we have frequently adapted and modernised this Act over the past 41 years.

We are also grateful for the opportunity to support this amending Bill because it removes a large number of anomalies from the existing Electoral Act. References to provincial councils and so on cause the amending Bill to ensure that our Electoral Act now addresses the situation of elections in South Africa as it is today.

We intend supporting this Bill too because it improves the updating of voters’ lists, because it creates opportunities to keep voters’ lists up to date in a better way and because it improves the system of registration of voters.

It also simplifies the system of voting by absent voters, firstly by extending the availability of special votes, and it also simplifies the system in that, although postal votes are retained, that system is actually further refined and made more specific for those people who have to make use of postal votes.

In the last place, this Bill improves our election legislation in the sense that it modernises the holding of elections, that it simplifies and modernises the situation regarding procedure on the day of voting and in general is an improvement upon our voting system.

Question put to House of Representatives: That the Bill be now read a second time.

Question agreed to.

Question put to House of Delegates: That the Bill be now read a second time.

Question agreed to.

The House of Assembly divided:

AYES—112: Andrew K M; Aucamp J M; Badenhorst P J; Blanché J P I; Bloomberg S G; Bosman J F; Botha C J v R; Botha J C G; Brazelle J A; Burrows R M; Chait E J; Christophers D; Coetsee H J; Coetzer P W; Cunningham J H; Dalling D J; De Beer Z J; De Klerk F W; De Villiers D J; Delport J T; Dilley L H M; Durr K D; Edwards B V; Eglin C W; Ellis M J; Farrell P J; Fick L H; Fismer C L; Fourie A; Geldenhuys B L; Golden S G A; Graaff D de V; Grobler A C A C; Grobler P G W; Hardingham R W; Hattingh C P; Heine W J; Heyns J H; Hugo P F; Hulley R R; Hunter J E L; Jager R; Jooste J A; Jordaan A L; Koornhof N J J v R; Kotzé G J; Kriel H J; Kritzinger W T; Kruger T A P; Le Roux D E T; Lemmer J J; Ligthelm C J; Lorimer R J; Louw E v d M; Louw I; Louw M H; Malcomess D J N; Malherbe G J; Marais P G; Maree J W; Maree M D; Matthee P A; Meiring J W H; Mentz J H W; Meyer A T; Meyer W D; Myburgh G B; Niemann J J; Nothnagel A E; Odendaal W A; Olivier P J S; Oosthuizen G C; Pretorius J F; Pretorius P H; Rabie J; Redinger R E; Scheepers J H L; Schoeman R S; Schoeman S J (Sunnyside); Schoeman S J (Walmer); Schoeman W J; Schwarz H H; Smit H A; Smith H J; Snyman A J J; Soal P G; Steyn P T; Streicher D M; Swanepoel J J; Swanepoel K D; Swanepoel P J; Terblanche A J WPS; Van Breda A; Van der Merwe A S; Van der Merwe C J; Van der Merwe S S; Van der Walt A T; Van Deventer F J; Van de Vyver J H; Van Eck J; Van Gend D P de K; Van Gend J B de R; Van Heerden F J; Van Rensburg H M J; Van Vuuren L M J; Van Zyl J G; Veldman M H; Venter A A; Vilonel J J; Vlok A J; Walsh J J; Welgemoed P J.

NOES—18: Coetzee H J; De Jager C D; De Ville J R; Gerber A; Jacobs S C; Langley T; Le Roux F J; Mentz M J; Mulder C P; Mulder P W A; Paulus P J; Prinsloo J J S; Schoeman C B; Treumicht A P; Uys C; Van der Merwe J H; Van Vuuren S P; Van Wyk W J D.

Question agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a second time.

Mr Chairman, the hon the Deputy Minister of Transport Affairs’ allegation on Tuesday that the CP had supported similar legislation to the present Bill in 1986 is proof of the fact that the hon the Deputy Minister either did not read the two pieces of legislation or does not understand them.

The 1986 Act created a system of third party insurance within the borders of the Republic of South Africa and South West Africa. The current Bill, which creates an overall system for third party insurance that will apply to five independent states, contains certain provisions which do not appear in the 1986 legislation at all. These provisions affect the Republic of South Africa’s position drastically in the new system and some of them are unacceptable to the CP.

The most important objections from the CP may be summarised as follows. Firstly, the CP objects to the way in which the voting power of member countries is calculated in the Council and the Committee of the MMF. In terms of article 21 of the Schedule this shall take place on the basis of the amount of the claims paid to successful claimants by the MMF in respect of the territory of each member according to the place where the occurrence from which each claim arose took place. The criterion is therefore not the amount a member contributes to the fund but the amount he takes from it.

Secondly, the CP objects to the power granted to the State President and the Government to amend the Schedule, that is to say the interstate agreement, in any respect without the approval of Parliament. In this case the CP is opposed to granting the State President and the Government this power.

Thirdly, we are not convinced that adequate protection of the Republic of South Africa exists in the piece of legislation regarding the admission of other members and the division of assets in the case of withdrawal from the MMF by the Republic of South Africa for instance. Consequently we oppose this Bill.

Mr Chairman, on behalf of this side of the House, and after all the arguments against the Bill have been heard and evaluated, I recommend that the Multilateral Motor Vehicle Accidents Fund Bill be passed by the House.

The most important arguments in favour of the Bill are briefly the following. The Motor Vehicle Accidents Act of 1986 provides—as against the earlier compulsory third party insurance—for the fuel levy to generate the income of the fund. This method of collection is retained according to the Bill before the House and eliminates many problems of administration and evasion.

The MMF Bill now also includes the TBVC countries by agreement in this system on a uniform basis, which means that Southern African countries with the same transport interests will have a uniform central fund which can deal with the interests of motorists and vehicle owners on an equal basis regardless of origin, providing the country of origin is a member of the fund.

In spite of the envisaged co-operation, no change is envisaged in the system. The status quo is maintained as far as aspects like the choice of an attorney to handle a claim are concerned.

The Bill suspends the implementation of the Motor Vehicle Accidents Act—Act 84 of 1986—on the date of its inception. The agreement, which is a Schedule to the legislation, is a spontaneous one which is evidence of willingness to co-operate. All the other countries involved have already passed legislation to legalise the agreement in order to ensure uniformity in participating Southern African states as far as third party cover is concerned.

Question put to House of Representatives: That the Bill be now read a second time.

Question agreed to.

Question put to House of Delegates: That the Bill be now read a second time.

Question agreed to.

The House of Assembly divided:

AYES—111: Andrew K M; Aucamp J M; Badenhorst P J; Blanché J P I; Bloomberg S G; Bosman J F; Botha C J v R; Botha J C G; Brazelle J A; Burrows R M; Chait E J; Christophers D; Coetsee H J; Coetzer P W; Cronjé P C; Cunningham J H; Dalling D J; De Beer Z J; De Klerk F W; De Villiers D J; Delport J T; Dilley L H M; Durr K D S; Edwards B V; Eglin C W; Ellis M J; Farrell P J; Fick L H; Fismer C L; Fourie A; Gastrow P H P; Geldenhuys B L; Golden S G A; Graaff D de V; Grobler A C A C; Grobler P G W; Hardingham R W; Hattingh C P; Heine W J; Heunis J C; Hugo P F; Hulley R R; Hunter J E L; Jager R; Jooste J A; Jordaan A L; Koornhof N J J v R; Kotzé G J; Kriel H J; Kritzinger W T; Kruger T A P; Le Roux D E T; Lemmer J J; Ligthelm C J; Lorimer R J; Louw E v d M; Louw M H; Malherbe G J; Marais P G; Maré P L; Maree J W; Maree M D; Matthee P A; Mentz J H W; Meyer A T; Meyer W D; Myburgh G B; Niemann J J; Nothnagel A E; Odendaal W A; Olivier P J S; Oosthuizen G C; Pretorius J F; Pretorius P H; Redinger R E; Scheepers J H L; Schoeman R S; Schoeman S J (Sunnyside); Schoeman S J (Walmer); Schoeman W J; Schwarz H H; Smit H A; Snyman A J J; Soal P G; Steenkamp P J; Steyn P T; Streicher D M; Swanepoel J J; Swanepoel K D; Swanepoel P J; Terblanche A J W P S; Van Breda A; Van de Vyver J H; Van der Merwe A S; Van der Merwe C J; Van der Merwe S S; Van der Walt A T; Van Deventer F J; Van Eck J; Van Gend J B de R; Van Gend D P de K; Van Heerden F J; Van Rensburg H M J; Van Vuuren L M J; Van Zyl J G; Veldman M H; Venter A A; Vilonel J J; Vlok A J; Walsh J J; Welgemoed P J.

NOES—18: Coetzee H J; De Jager C D; De Ville J R; Gerber A; Jacobs S C; Langley T; Le Roux F J; Mentz M J; Mulder C P; Mulder P W A; Paulus P J; Prinsloo J J S; Schoeman C B; Treurnicht A P; Uys C; Van der Merwe J H; Van Vuuren S P; Van Wyk W J D.

Question agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a second time.

Order! Before hon members return to their own Chambers, it falls to me to thank all hon members very sincerely on this occasion on behalf of the Chair for their co-operation with and regard for all the presiding officers and me in particular.

†I wish to thank hon members for their helpful disposition at all times towards the Chair and myself personally.

*It was my privilege to be the first person to stand on the podium and I am also the last person speaking from this Chair in this session. It really seems to me that he who is first will also be last.

The Joint Meeting adjourned at 11h28.

Order! A message from the State President to the House of Representatives has been handed to me. The message reads as follows:

Mr Chairman, I move without notice:

[Interjections.]

Order! If hon members do not accept the draft resolution, this will mean that we will have to meet on Monday and Tuesday.

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, the Bill’s primary objective is to create the statutory machinery through which, firstly, our community will receive greater representation and more of a say in the decision-making on housing projects at local level. Secondly, this Bill succeeds in giving people in the rural areas the opportunity for the first time to make loans from the housing fund without it being necessary to register a bond on the property. This is a long-cherished expectation. The other aspects in the Bill are aimed at making the Act more streamlined administratively and making certain legal aspects clearer.

†The Bill seeks to amend the Housing Act (House of Representatives), 1987, so as to further regulate the constitution of regional committees; to further regulate the use of moneys in the Housing Fund and accounts to be kept in relation to the Fund; to do away with the obligation to table certain statements in relation to the Fund; to further regulate the legal remedies of the Housing Board against certain defaulting lessees and other occupiers of immovable property; and to make provision for the granting of certain housing loans in the rural areas.

Clause 1 amends section 6. The purpose of the amendment is to regulate the functioning of the regional committees of the Housing Board by firstly omitting the requirement in the present legislation for an official of a local authority to serve on a regional committee. As a regional committee deals with matters of a large number of local authorities the appointment of a representative of a single local authority would create an untenable situation. However, this amendment enables me to appoint more local persons on the committee who have an intimate knowledge of local conditions and have close ties with the local community. This should serve to further enhance local community involvement in all matters related to the housing development funds.

Clause 2 amends section 12 by deleting subsection (5) in order to simplify the accounting of the Housing Fund. The Treasury has suggested that subsection (5) be deleted. It is not regarded as necessary to keep a record of interest payable and interest earned. The provisions of subsection (5) no longer apply and it has thus become redundant.

The amendment of subsection (6) in clause 2 is merely intended to keep an accounting system which is acceptable to Treasury and the Auditor-General, and to do away with the prescriptive and rigid system embodied in the existing legislation.

The annual statements to be submitted by the Director-General in terms of section 12(7) are also no longer required by Treasury as the income and the expenditure of the Fund is reflected in the annual budget and debated under my Vote.

*Section 12(9) is being amended in accordance with the provisions of the Corporation for Public Deposits Act, Act 46 of 1984, and the definition of commissioners.

†Clause 3 amends section 18. This is a technical measure which provides for the recovery of arrear rental from a person no longer in an occupational dwelling.

*In addition these provisions only apply to departmental projects and do not affect the housing of local authorities. They do not change any principles of the principal Act either.

†Section 40A is inserted by clause 4. This section will enable the Housing Board to grant loans to registered occupiers as referred to in the Rural Areas Act (House of Representatives), Act No 9 of 1987, before the borrower is in a position to take transfer of the property, and to provide suitable measures to protect the interests of the board.

Building societies are not prepared to grant loans on properties which are subject to restrictive conditions of sale. Only registered occupants in the rural areas may purchase such properties.

This provision will facilitate much needed development and grant teachers for example the opportunity to erect their own houses and thus ensure that suitably qualified teaching staff be appointed in the rural areas.

*With the assistance of the Housing Act this House has reached new heights and gained many successes since the Act came into operation in 1987. We in this House have also gained a great deal of experience with legislation and associated measures. I am of the opinion that after the general election the new House will look again at further renewal of the important Housing Act, which will contribute towards improving the quality of life of our community.

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure for me to support this Bill because this department wants to proceed with its activities, although since we came here five years ago, and even before that, we often encountered obstacles, the activities of the department being hampered as a result of legislation.

I should just like to mention only two points which the hon the Minister singled out. The first is that those rural areas in South Africa that are inhabited for the most part by the Coloured population, have always been neglected. However, this legislation will give those people a breather, allowing them to lead meaningful lives. As the hon the Minister stated very specifically, they can continue to obtain loans through the hon the Minister’s department. In the past they often applied to building societies, and as hon members know, 90% of those institutions are for White occupation and the remaining 10% for those of us in the urban areas. The rural areas therefore get no opportunity to expand.

Another important point that was raised was that as far as the rural areas were concerned, with the tremendous need for housing which exists—not only for the man in the street, but even for officials in education, etc—we are making it possible, by means of this legislation, for these people to come to the rural areas and to settle there by making use of these loans. Therefore I wholeheartedly support this legislation on behalf of my party.

Mr Chairman, I will be very brief in saying that we are fundamentally opposed to the concept of own affairs, which to my mind is nothing but a euphemism for apartheid. I still believe it is inconsistent on the one hand to reject the Vote of the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning because of the fact that that Vote perpetuates apartheid in terms of the Group Areas Act, the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act, etc but on the other hand to come here and actually entrench and extend the whole concept of own affairs. This side of the House finds that totally inconsistent. [Interjections.]

May I just tell the hon the Deputy Minister of the Budget that I do not believe that the decision taken at Eshowe meant that the LP should come into the House of Representatives and entrench and extend the concept of own affairs. [Interjections.] What I understood in terms of the spirit of the Eshowe resolution was that we would use what is available to us in order to achieve the objective of a non-racial democracy in South Africa and not to entrench apartheid. [Interjections.] That was not the spirit of the Eshowe resolution and therefore… [Interjections.]

Order! I am not going to allow hon members to make so many interjections. The hon member may continue.

Therefore we cannot lend our support to this Bill. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Schauderville’s reaction at this point in time is a pity. As a member of the LP of South Africa he was for five years and many years before that quite prepared to go along with its ideals, aims and objectives. However, purely due to a personality clash he has left us and now finds fault. I therefore treat that with the contempt it deserves. [Interjections.]

I should like to say a few things at the outset. First of all I do not know why this Bill falls under environment affairs. Secondly, I do not appreciate the fact that we were given such short notice to discuss the very important aspects covered in this Bill.

Furthermore, if this Bill is going to fall under this department I should like to point out that there are many anomalies in the principal Act, and I believe these have to be rectified. With respect to the hon members who formed the commission who were responsible for this Bill in 1987, I need to point out that we have gained a lot more experience in Parliament since then. If we put our heads together with the hon the Minister and his department, as the hon the Minister pointed out, I am of the opinion that we shall be able to improve on this Bill.

I just want to go a little further and add that when one looks at the rental formula one will find that because of the way it is interpreted at the moment, there are many people who would have been better off had they not bought their houses. This formula in my opinion has not kept up with inflation, interest rates, etc. I believe that that fact in itself already is something positive for our people.

I think that apart from the negative things contained in the Bill there is perhaps one clause which I would like to comment on, namely clause 3 which amends section 18, subparagraphs (a) and (b), and which provides that money may be recovered legally. I wish to say that we on this side of the House have always upheld and will always vehemently uphold the basic principles of law. We will strongly oppose any attempt to bypass the courts.

In the preamble to the constitution of the LP it says:

I believe we stand up to face this country and everybody else when we say that we have applied that principle as positively as we could have done. [Interjections.] In this House we have, yes, Sir.

I just want to say that in 1987 all the hon members sitting here, and even others who have left, were party to this Bill. When we come back, there will be the opportunity to bring about amendments to rectify this.

With these words I say it is a good Bill and we on this side support it.

Mr Chairman, I wish to thank the hon members who participated in this debate, and particularly the hon member for Esselen Park, who supported the Bill. I wish to thank him for his comments.

I shall make some general remarks at the end after replying to some hon members’ speeches.

I want to reply to the hon member for Schauderville. He now belongs to the DP. I want to tell him the history of his party, because I was a member of his party in the days when it was called the PFP.

The PFP registered Coloured people on a separate voters’ role in the sixties… [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: We should not be hearing this history. We are not interested in the history. The hon the Minister must come back to the Bill.

Mr Chairman, I am replying to the debate. [Interjections.] I did not object when the hon member for Schauderville made the statements he made. That hon member did not tell him to get back to the Bill. [Interjections.] I can reply. We are debating openly in Parliament. [Interjections.] No, the party that that hon member belongs to…

Order! I am not going to allow a debate across the floor. The hon the Minister must be given the full opportunity to reply to the debate.

Mr Chairman, that is what I like. As soon as I start replying, they cannot take it. I can take it. I sat quietly, but those hon members cannot take it. [Interjections.] Why do they keep interrupting me then? [Interjections.] No, the point is that the party they belong to registered Coloured people separately. They voted in two members for the provincial council. [Interjections.] There is no point in denying it. It is history. The hon member for Sea Point would have stood for election for four seats for the old Cape Provincial Council. The Progs were ready to stand for election. There were four White MPs who would have represented the Coloured people. [Interjections.] I registered as a member for that party and I worked for the PFP.

Order! I asked the hon member to stop making interjections. [Interjections.] I want to ask the hon member again not to continue doing so or I will be forced to take steps. The hon the Minister may proceed.

Mr Chairman, this is what makes me so happy, because it hurts them. One does not speak emotionally if it does not hurt. I sat here quietly. I was a member of the PFP when the Act separating people so that one could not belong to a White political party was passed. I voted in the congress, but the PFP voted that they were going White. They voted at their congresses to go White and to stand for a White House of Assembly on a White voters’ roll. Now those hon members talk on a matter of principle as if their party has suddenly become non-racial.

I want to make another point. If the DP wins this election they will become the majority party in the House of Assembly and then they will implement the own affairs concept. The LP will be in control of this House and the Minister of Housing in the White House of Assembly will implement the legislation for housing until a new constitution is instituted [Interjections.] No, they will in principle operate the own affairs for Whites only [Interjections.]

It surprises me that when they were members of the LP last year certain hon members voted for this Bill. Of course they voted for it. In 1987 they approved this Bill and hon members on that side of the House sat on the committee that investigated it. What we are discussing today is not controversial or contentious. To the hon member for Retreat I want to say that these are procedural matters. This has nothing to do with legislation for local authorities. As I said in my speech this concerns properties owned by the development board. That is what it concerns.

The City Council of Cape Town, which is controlled by the DP, ejects people without a court order. [Interjections.] Exactly! Take Durban which is also controlled by the DP; they do not say they are going to change the law. They eject people without a court order because the law says so. These really are procedural matters and amendments which are not controversial. We will look into the question of the rental structure. These are all provisions of law which we have dealt with and there is nothing new. In terms of the law a local authority has the right to eject people without a court order. [Interjections.] Those hon members should first go to the DP to which they belong. They should not come and preach to us. This is what I call the “blaming-the-victim syndrome”. [Interjections.] No, this is not my law. That hon member approved this in the main Act in 1987. He should have a look at it.

I do not have to waste the time of the House any further. I thank hon members for their support of this Bill and I ask the House to approve this proposed legislation.

Debate concluded.

Question agreed to (Democratic Party and United Democratic Party dissenting).

Bill read a second time

The aim of the Bill is to amend the Development Act (House of Representatives), 1987, in order to further regulate the constitution of standing committees of the Development Board, and to grant certain powers to the Minister of the Budget in respect of conditions subject to which the said board functions, and in respect of the investment of moneys in the Development Fund. It is also to empower the said board to employ certain staff; to delete the provision that the Minister and the Minister of the Budget must concur in regulations of the Director-General regarding control over the said fund. The Treasury is granted wider powers in relation to regulations on the accounts of the said fund. The Bill also aims to provide for the establishment and functions of Local Development Committees, to further regulate the legal remedies of the Development Board against certain defaulting lessees and other occupiers of immovable property, to do away with the duty to table certain statements to the Development Fund and to effect certain textual improvements.

Clause 1 amends section 8, thereby altering the constitution of standing committees of the Development Board to grant wider powers to the Minister in relation to the number of officers whom he may appoint to these committees. It is in the interest of our community and expedient that people, including ministerial representatives, with an extensive knowledge of housing be appointed to standing committees.

Clauses 2, 4 and 5 amend sections 10, 12 and 13, according greater participation to the Minister of the Budget in affairs of the Development Board and the Development Fund. Clause 5 contains a new provision concerning the Director-General’s powers with regard to control over the said fund, and the granting of wider powers to the Treasury with regard to the regulation of the accounts of the fund in the interest of more effective management and in order to simplify accounting. The provisions will ensure an accounting system which is acceptable to the Treasury and the Auditor-General and will do away with the old rigid systems.

Clause 3 amends inserts section 10A after section 10 of the Act. This will empower the Development Board to appoint people in its service in view of the possible approval of the board as a public authority for the purpose of transferring staff in terms of the Abolition of Development Bodies Act, Act No 75 of 1986.

*With the abolition of the Transvaal Council for the Development of Peri-Urban Areas and the divisional councils in the Cape Province in terms of section 2(1) of the Abolition of Development Bodies Act 1986, Act No 75 of 1986, the need arose to ensure that the local government function of Ennerdale and similar divisional council areas would be continued. With this aim in mind the officials of my department held discussions with officials of the Department of Constitutional Development and Planning, the Commission for Administration and the Transvaal Provincial Administration on the possibility of transferring the local government function of Ennerdale to the Development Board.

The aim of this amendment is therefore firstly to enable the Development Board to take over the local management function of development bodies such as the Transvaal Council for the Development of Peri-Urban Areas when it is abolished, and to ensure that the development of the areas which will be affected in that way will take place on a healthy footing. Certain local authorities, namely certain divisional councils and the Transvaal Council for the Development of Peri-Urban Areas, which carried out local government functions in such areas, will disappear on 1 July 1989 and in order to continue such functions, it was necessary to create another body. Services must be rendered, houses must be built and the development must continue without interruption.

Where the local authority in the case of the abolition of the three divisional councils in the Cape was transferred to me as Minister, certain problems were created and it is therefore more meaningful to transfer such authority to the Development Board which will then be able to deal with the matter with its own personnel. However, there is no question of autonomous local authorities being implemented in such areas, as the Development Board will provide assistance in conjunction with the Administrator and the Executive Committee in areas where little or no financial means exist. In due course further powers may on request be transferred to management committees under control of the Development Board in order to give the communities their greater say in decision-making. The Ministers’ Council therefore decided that functions of the Transvaal Council for the Development of Peri-Urban Areas would be taken over by the Development Board as local authority on 1 July 1989.

Clause 7 makes provision for the insertion of section 28A. Situations are constantly arising in which local authorities are unable to effectively carry out development activities to the satisfaction of our community’s needs. Because the department itself is unable to deal with these development activities country-wide, section 28A is being inserted. This will enable me as Minister to implement a local development committee as a corporate body in a specific area to deal with such development activities wherever the need arises. Such a body will also be in a position to undertake certain agency functions for local authorities and management committees on request.

Clauses 6 and 8 deal largely with textual improvements. No principle in the principal Act is changed or affected by this. Clause 8, that is to say section 31 of the principal Act, is only applicable to departmental projects and does not affect local government housing projects. The amending Bill will make the principal Act significantly more enforceable in practice.

Mr Chairman, it is pleasant to once again be discarding the old and referring to the new on this Friday morning. Where are we sitting this morning?

In the Chamber.

Yes, and what type of chamber? A separate chamber. [Interjections.] That is true whether they believe it or not.

[Inaudible.]

Elsies River should rather keep quiet.

Nevertheless we are now fighting for nomination to return to a separate House. We even kick our wives in bed at night, so eager are we to be nominated in order to return to a separate House. The hon the Minister admitted that the entire Ministers’ Council granted its approval to this. Therefore, if there is trouble here, we will not only shoot him, but the whole Ministers’ Council as well. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member must be given a fair chance, but he must return to the Bill.

Mr Chairman, I am always honourable; I do not know anyone by the name of Johnnie in this House. [Interjections.] It is therefore a privilege for me to support this Bill, because hon members who were members of Assomac, know where these things come from. We have worked for years to reach this point. [Interjections.]

Order! I am appealing to hon members to give the hon member a chance so that we can dispose of our business.

Let us look firstly at the Development Board. The board makes possible the devolution of power down to the lowest level. [Interjections.] Down to Ennerdale. [Interjections.]

The peri-urban boards in the Transvaal gave areas such as Eldorado Park and Enerdale a terrific headache. This Development Board is now being given muscle in that our people who are going to serve on it, will ensure that justice prevails. It is not only going to act in an advisory capacity, but will also work with funds. Therefore our people will be able to approach the Development Board with their needs.

It is therefore a great pleasure for me to support this amending Bill. I hope there will be no opposition to it.

Mr Chairman, I do not want to repeat my arguments about the extension and the entrenchment of the whole concept of own affairs by the LP. It is quite interesting to see what is happening here. I think hon members of the LP are divided in their attitude towards the two Bills which we are dealing with this morning. One finds that the bulk of the left wing of the LP has left the Chamber because they cannot be seen to be supporting this Bill. That is the fact of the matter. [Interjections.] Hon members of the LP have come to me privately to express their serious reservation about passing these two own affairs Bills. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member for Wentworth whether he in fact supports clause 7 of this Bill which further fragments local authorities on the basis of race? This clause provides for the establishment and functions of local development committees. A simple “yes” or “no” from the hon member for Wentworth will suffice. Does he support clause 7?

It is none of your business.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Wentworth is dead quiet. I know he does not support this clause.

There are many other clauses in this Bill that I, and many hon members in the LP, cannot support… [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members are not allowed to carry on in this way. They should grant the hon member a proper chance to put his case. It is his democratic right. The hon member may continue.

Clause 8 actually abrogates the rights of the individual… [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member a question? [Interjections.] He asked me whether I supported a single clause in a Bill that was put forward by the majority party. Could I ask him whether he supports any clause in the Elections and Identification Amendment Bill? [Interjections.] That hon member must keep out of this.

Mr Chairman, I will answer the hon member for Wentworth provided that he answers my question which is relevant to the Bill under discussion. [Interjections.] The question of the hon member has nothing to do with the Bill under discussion. I think the hon member is actually running away from the subject. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon member is misleading the House when he says that my question has nothing to do with the Bill under discussion. I am trying to point out that the hon member is totally inconsistent…

Order! That is not a point of order. The hon member may continue. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I hope you will grant me some injury time. [Interjections.] Clause 8 of this particular Bill… [Interjections.] If the hon member for Haarlem will stop being so vociferous in his comments, he might actually learn something. I think he does not even know the contents of this particular Bill…

I cannot learn anything from you. You are running away.

This particular clause abrogates the rights of the individual to seek relief from the courts. I cannot support an arbitrary type of action such as the one which is envisaged in this Bill. What does clause 8 say? I quote:

That is criminal.

In other words, an official can arbitrarily enter somebody’s property and take possession of it. [Interjections.] That poor innocent person cannot seek relief from the courts. [Interjections.] I cannot accept that hon members in the LP are so insensitive to the rights of the individual that they will actually allow a clause of this nature to be adopted in this House. Therefore, in terms of the arguments that I have brought forward with regard to those particular clauses, and because of the extension and entrenchment of the concept of own affairs, we cannot support this Bill.

Mr Chairman, I find it strange that after nearly four weeks of absence my friend, the hon member for Durban Suburbs, suddenly attacked the LP in Parliament simply to have his name printed in Hansard and to show that he was present. [Interjections.]

I now want to speak in favour of the Bill as introduced. In the short period at my disposal I want to deal with only a few points in this Bill.

The aim of the amendments in this Bill is exclusively to promote greater effectiveness in the administration. Section 8 of the Act is being amended to give the Minister wider authority to appoint persons of both the Development Board and the department to a standing committee. In terms of the Act before the amendment, the Minister could only make use of members of the Development Board as well as members of his department.

However, problems were experienced because board members were unable to be readily available at all times and in all places when urgent cases had to be dealt with and decisions made, and for that reason this amendment was introduced. For example, we have nine regional office areas. It is an impossible task for board members to be present at all these places at the same time, and this amendment will therefore completely eliminate similar problems which may arise. For that reason I welcome this amendment.

Section 10(2) of the Act, No 3 of 1987, states that the Minister must obtain the approval of the Minister of Finance in order to achieve the objectives of this Act. We felt that this subsection had to be changed in order to substitute the Minister of the Budget for the Minister of Finance. With regard to the budget of every department, funds are negotiated at the Central Treasury. We do not believe that it is necessary to approach the Minister of Finance twice to obtain permission to negotiate these funds, and for that reason we believe that this clause was necessary, and we therefore support it.

Section 28A(1) of the Act was inserted in order to be generally more helpful with regard to development and management where shortcomings exist in that regard.

I do not want to spend much time on this, but I would like to talk briefly about section 13. This section was in the Act when it was approved by the House of Representatives. It deals with the collection of rentals which are in arrears, etc. The sequence of the steps in the section which deal with the legal action which has to be taken against people who are illegal occupants or who are in arrears with regard to their rental, is incorrect in the existing Act. As a result that section was simply changed around. It is therefore a section which was approved by this House. There was no objection. Many hon members who raised objections today, were with us in the LP and approved this on behalf of the LP.

Mr Chairman, I find the debate this morning very interesting. I must give the hon member for Schauderville credit because he uses a very shrewd means of debating. He calls local development an own affairs function. I am sorry that his friend and confidant, the hon member for Reigerpark, is not here. They are always seen together. They support each other. However, how did his friend build Rabie Ridge? He used these two Acts. He used the Group Areas Act. He appeared before the Group Areas Board. They were members of the party to which the hon member for Reigerpark belonged and they supported these actions. Suddenly they now become non-racial men of principle when it suits them. As far as the Development Board is concerned we are talking about development. Why did they not object to Blue Downs? Why do they not object to Delft?

Why do they not object to any development that this department does anywhere in South Africa on behalf of our people? We have taken over a development function. We inherited the fragmentation of local authorities; we did not cause it. We do not sell this system to our people. We do not sell management committees to them. We have consistently said that we stand for direct representation. We have continuously fought this system. [Interjections.]

We are not going to run away from our responsibility to house our people. We in the LP have consistently said we will use the system against the system. [Interjections.] The hon member for Schauderville very cleverly uses these philosophical arguments, because he belongs to a new party now and so he must be non-racial. Members of this party sat on the committees, made recommendations and supported legislation.

I want to repeat that this matter with regard to recovering rents has to do with property of the Development Board. We have nothing to do with local authorities. I repeat, the local authorities can in terms of their own legislation take certain steps with regard to the recovery of rents. *We want to extend this legislation which we are speaking about at the moment. We want to bring our people into development regions. We want them to have a say with regard to the development. Surely those hon members know that certain CP-orientated councils refuse to build houses for Coloured people. I am saying this to them openly. They can differ with me, but I am not going to allow a White council to deprive my people of houses.

But you are building their homeland.

No, it is not a homeland. The hon member must repeat that on a platform. He must say that outside. He must tell that to the people for whom we built houses. He must tell the people of Brandvlei that this party builds own affairs houses, homeland houses. They will say that we are simply building houses. [Interjections.] I am not at all ashamed of what my department and I are doing.

†I owe nobody any apologies for building houses for our poor people and developing those areas.

What those hon members are adopting now, is the boycott principle.

*We will get nowhere in South Africa that way. If we had done that in 1969, 20 years ago in the CRC, we would not have been here today. We brought those hon members here. We brought them to where they are today. [Interjections.] This party brought them from the CRC and took over. This party brought them to where they are today through our decision to participate in the system.

†On the other side of the coin stand their people. What right do those hon members have to say to their people that they should vote for them after five years? The people will ask what they did for them. All they will be able to answer is that they have fought against apartheid. They did not build houses, because they were afraid that by doing so they would perpetuate own affairs. [Interjections.] I am sorry, but that does not work with me. Let us thrash this matter out.

Our people are now even poorer than they were five years ago. [Interjections.]

The blame for that must be placed where it belongs, namely on the NP which implemented apartheid.

†What those hon members are doing now, is to blame the victim.

*I am now responsible for the poverty of our Coloured people, I who also became poor as a result of apartheid, I who was moved in terms of the Group Areas Act. Now they want to blame me! They must put the blame where it belongs.

I am involved in this system, and when somebody knocks on my door this evening and asks for a house, I have to look Aunt Sofie in the eyes, not that hon member. [Interjections.] He does not vote for me, but Aunt Sofie does. That is the basic thing in politics. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Minister a question?

No, he must turn up in the House, take his seat and sit here regularly. [Interjections.] He only comes here at the last minute on the last day because he wants to fight an election. I do not have time for that nonsense.

*Those hon members know that these things are tearing our people apart. After all I know our Coloured people. My standpoint is basically that one must build houses, whether it is under a system of apartheid, a government under Tutu or the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly. People are still going to knock on one’s door. One must develop areas. Urbanisation is here to stay. [Interjections.] However, those hon members now come to this House with cheap politicking and tell our people that it is a matter of principle, just as the boycotters do. However, that is why the boycotters are outside. [Interjections.] We are here to solve our people’s problems.

I want to thank the hon members of this Committee. They talk openly about these matters. The hon member for Retreat and the hon member for Steinkopf stated their case. One thing about this party must be clear, and that is that the LP is not going to turn around when it comes to the needs of our people. The LP is going to participate in the election, and it is going to use the system until our poor people have been uplifted. Where are the teachers today? In 1969 we voted for equal pay for equal work. Hon members must have a look at how many cars there are in the school grounds. [Interjections.] And now? [Interjections.]

†Of course, but how did they get it? [Interjections.] They got it by using… [Interjections.]

Order! If the hon member wants a turn to speak he must arrange it and stop making interjections.

I am glad the hon member for Schauderville interjected. Sonny Leon lost his head by refusing to sign the budget in 1975. The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council and I resigned as members of the executive committee on the principle of equal pay for equal work.

*Now it is being implemented, but what did we use? Just like the DP, we used a separate institution. [Interjections.] That is what the hon member for Houghton is using now.

†She used a separate Whites only Parliament to fight for civil rights. [Interjections.] I am the last person to condemn her and say she is unprincipled. I am the last person to tell the hon member for Houghton that she is a system MP. She used Parliament on her own terms in order to get what she wanted. We have put our case. There is nothing controversial in this legislation; they are purely procedural measures and I therefore ask the House to approve the Bill.

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Bill be now read a second time.

The House divided.

As fewer than 15 members (viz Kippen, C J; Müller, P J; Poole, A E; Redcliffe, C R) appeared on one side,

Question declared agreed to.

Bill read a second time.

Mr Chairman, I would like to use this opportunity firstly to thank you and the other presiding officers for your guidance and patience. I appreciate the patience you have displayed here.

†It is a sad day when we come to the end of a session, but when we come to the end of a period of Parliament, it is of course not easy to take leave of one another. We may differ, but we have grown close to one another. I want to believe that all of us came here with a common objective.

I want to say to thank you to you, Mr Chairman, to the Secretariat and the messengers who made it possible for us to operate as best possible. Of course I also want to say thank you to every hon member of Parliament, particularly the members of this Ministers’ Council, and especially the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council.

However, I would be failing in my duty if I did not express a word of appreciation to a person like Mrs Helen Suzman, with whom I disagreed most of the time, but whom I certainly admired as a person of courage, particularly when she was fighting a lone battle in this Parliament for non-racialism in this country. I certainly wish her well. I believe she deserves it, and I hope she will enjoy the rest of her days and that they will be peaceful, and that she will never forget the principle she strove for, namely that every person in this country must develop to his full potential, and that that dream will be realised in her lifetime.

I wish to conclude by wishing every hon member of this House well who has made himself available for re-election. I also wish them success.

I also want to thank my colleagues who have not made themselves available for re-election, for a job well done. We certainly appreciate their contribution.

In conclusion, to all of us: May God spare us, and may we see a South Africa we shall be truly proud of. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I move without notice:

Order! I want to take this opportunity to thank each and every hon member of this House for the cooperation and assistance they have given me in the short period that I have been serving as Chairman of this House. I really appreciate it.

I also wish each and every hon member a happy recess. Those that are not coming back to Parliament I wish a happy retirement or everything of the best in whatever profession they are going to pursue. Those that are going to fight the election, I wish every success. We hope to see you all.

I also want to take this opportunity of saying thank you to the secretariat—who have been very helpful—the Serjeant-at-Arms, the service officers and each and every one who has made this last session of this Parliament a success for each and every one of us.

I will now afford the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council an opportunity to say a few words.

Mr Chairman, I want to associate myself with the sentiments expressing our thanks and appreciation to the service officers and all those persons here in Parliament who contribute to the smooth functioning of this institution.

We have come to the end of the tasks that we took on in 1984, and I want to thank all the hon members present here for the fellowship that we have shared, even though we might have differed. I want to wish them well in whatever they do when they leave here. I also want to wish well those who will gather here after the elections to carry on with the task that we have taken upon ourselves, namely to contribute to peaceful reform in South Africa.

Hopefully, when the new Parliament assembles, the challenge before all those present here in Parliament will be to speedily set in motion the machinery to bring together South Africans from all walks of life and all political persuasions to work out a constitutional dispensation, the basis of which has been spoken of in this Chamber, in the other Chambers and in many debates which have taken place here over the past five years.

The country will have to face this challenge, and we cannot allow the opportunity to be lost, since the progress, prosperity and well-being of all people is being arrested. I sincerely trust and pray that good sense will prevail, and that the answers will be sought and found.

Mr Chairman, I too would like to associate myself with the sentiments expressed and I wish to thank all hon members for having afforded me their co-operation—especially the political office bearers with whom I have had to work very closely. It has been a pleasure working with them.

I think I would be failing in my duty if, on behalf of this House, I did not place on record our thanks and appreciation to Mr Speaker for his guidance, to you as the hon Chairman of this House, and to your predecessors namely the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare, the hon member for Rylands and the hon member Mr S Abram. We are appreciative of the efforts by the Chair. We also give our thanks to the secretariat who have at all times guided us and have been at our disposal when we needed their attention.

We should not forget the service officers who have been there at all times as well as Hansard, members of the Press and one lot we tend to forget, the personnel in our catering section. They have served us with smiling faces and I believe it is necessary to thank them as well.

To all hon members who are not coming back and who have indicated that they are going into retirement or semi-retirement, I would like to say God be with them and may they enjoy their retirement.

To those hon colleagues who are going to contest the elections, I wish them all the success with the wish and a prayer that they will come back ready to do more of what has been done in the past for our country.

Mr Chairman, I shall not repeat everything I said yesterday. I just want to take the opportunity to reiterate what I said, particularly the remarks I made about the hon the Minister of the Budget behind his back.

Mr Chairman, I heard them.

I also want to say that in a debate one is very often robust. That is the nature of things when one is having a political debate but I personally—and I trust other hon members of this House as well—do not believe in rancour or vindictiveness. Once a thing has been said, of course, one has to pursue it—one cannot backtrack on anything one has said. However, it must be done without any personal animosity and I certainly bear no personal animosity towards any person.

There appears to be some misunderstanding that I made an allegation in this House that a certain three individuals owed R40 000 to the Marburg Town Council. That is not the case. I never made such a statement. What I said was that a company—of which two of these individuals are shareholders and the third individual is a director—owed, and still owes, the money. There is a big difference between the two and I want these gentlemen to understand that it is not directed at them personally but at a company. I am saying this for the sake of clarifying the misunderstanding which seems to exist.

In shalom, I expect to be back here in September and in 1990 and I would be very grateful if a message could be passed on to the catering service that when they serve us curry, let it be curry!

Mr Chairman, I also want to associate myself, firstly, with the sentiments expressed to you as the hon Chairman of this House for your contribution and the manner in which you have presided over the meetings. I also want to thank the previous hon Chairmen—the hon member for Rylands and the hon member Mr S Abram—for the able manner in which they too, presided over the House of Delegates.

I think we will go down in history as the first stock who opted to participate in this tricameral Parliament. In the last five years we have witnessed the frustrations as a result of the oppression of centuries. This oppression manifested itself here.

This Chamber has witnessed the cries and aspirations of the people and in the process there has been unhappiness, turbulence, confusion and allegations. All these things have surfaced.

However, while the first five years are coming to a close today, I personally want to thank every hon member who opted to participate, for the contribution he has made in this Chamber. I also want to thank the secretariat, the Serjeant-at-Arms, Mr Speaker, Hansard, the Press and the SABC for their fair projection of what transpired in this House. I also want to wish a speedy recovery to the previous Chairman of the Ministers’ Council, who is undergoing an operation.

I am not sure if I will come back, but there is one factor that will dictate the destiny of any country. The destiny will depend on those who believe in negotiation.

I want to wish every member here who will be standing for election, every success and I want to wish those members who will retire everything of the best.

The hon the Minister of the Budget has been in the public arena for many, many years. I understand the same can be said of the hon member for Isipingo. I sincerely want to thank them for the long contribution they have made to the process of negotiation, since the time of the South African Indian Council. I also thank the hon member for Lenasia West, the hon member Mr Nowbath, the hon member for Lenasia East and all other hon members.

Regarding those who will stand for election and are coming back, it is my prayer that they will come back rejuvenated with a new spirit. Perhaps the experience which we have gained over the last five years will be a stepping stone towards prosperity of the future. I also want to thank you, Mr Chairman.

Finally it is our prayer that the hon the State President who is to retire, will retire in absolute happiness. In his lifetime he has seen to it that there is a point of departure. The results of the point of departure as far as South Africa is concerned, can be seen in our presence here today. I also want to wish him well, as well as the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning and the Natal leader, the Minister of Home Affairs and of Communications, who has been a stalwart in the NP. We want to wish him well and we hope, since he is not that old, that he will come back and make a contribution in Parliament.

Mr Chairman, I, too, want to join in congratulating hon members who will retire. I want to start with some of the men who have actually made their mark.

The first is the hon the Minister of the Budget, who was the father of the system of local government, becoming the first chairman of a town board in this country.

*He has made his mark there.

He also played a role in the SAIC and I suppose he still remembers how we burned the midnight oil in 1974. He served there right up to 1979 and in 1981 he became a member of the President’s Council where he also made a worthy contribution, as of course he did here over the last five years. I want to wish him well in whatever he will be tackling henceforth.

Then I want to refer to the hon member for North-Western Transvaal who started his career in local government in 1968 by becoming the first chairman of the Roshni Consultative Committee in those days, where he remained for a number of years. In 1974 the two of us contested elections for the SAIC as members nominated by local affairs and management committees. He has had an unbroken career since then. He went on to win in the SAIC election in 1981 and was elected as member for North-Western Transvaal in 1984. He will also be retiring, and to him we also want to say that we will be drawing on his expertise.

The hon member for Lenasia West will also retire. We entered local government together in the early sixties. He is one of those quiet, behind-the-scenes negotiators, a very strong personality.

I may add that he played a dominant role in getting the Association of Management Committees together in the early days. Those were difficult days. The young men who are there today are actually building on the foundations that were laid by people like Mr Dennis Pillay. He served in the SAIC in 1981. He came to Parliament as the member for Lenasia West in 1984. We want to wish him well and tell him that we will be drawing on his expertise. He once told me that he did not go grey by standing in the sun, but by sheer hard work and thorough experience.

The hon member for Lenasia East, Mr F M Khan, entered local government in 1978, and remained there for many years. He entered the SAIC in 1981 and became a member of Parliament in 1984. He is also an outspoken person, but I can assure hon members that behind those very strong words there is an absolutely down-to-earth human being. We wish him well in his retirement. He is not very healthy, but if he is challenged now, he will get into his motor car and drive from here to Cairo. Nobody will be able to stop him. That is the kind of resolution with which he served his community.

The hon member for Isipingo joined the SAIC in 1981. He is another of those strong behind-the-scenes men, a man who goes ahead and does what he believes in. He always spoke from the heart. He sometimes prepares a speech, and then just describes it and says what he feels. One makes the best speeches when one says what is inside one and not what someone has told one to say. We wish the hon member for Isipingo well.

I am also aware of the hon member Mr Nowbath, a famous lawyer and historian who has been plagued by ill health of late. We wish him Godspeed and strength in the days that lie ahead. We are grateful to have been associated with him in this House.

I thank every hon member in this House and I want to tell them that when one is in this game—as I once told my friend, the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture—one has to be an animal. One has to be prepared to give kicks and take kicks. I want all hon members here to know that sometimes we are vociferous, but we have tried our utmost to make our contributions. I believe that the quotation I read here some days ago is very apt, namely that we are here to do a job, to look after the people who sent us and, broadly speaking, to look after the interests of everybody in this country. We are also here to help to map out a new future so that those South Africans who are still on the sidelines, who are not here yet, will be brought here in a manner which will enable us to broaden the base of democracy.

I now want to thank every official—I am not going to name them—irrespective of who he is, from the people who assist us daily and made life easy for us here, namely the service officers, right up to the directors-general. I thank each and every one of them. I thank the secretariat and those beautiful ladies of Hansard. I thank everybody who has made the past five years that we have been here a memorable period of time. We wish them Godspeed, progress and happiness in whatever they will be doing.

Finally, we wish those who seek election, all success. We trust that those who will be elected and the newcomers that will replace those who are retiring, will come here to make a genuine contribution, and that they will have the satisfaction of making a contribution to the progress of this country, all its inhabitants and the prosperity of all its inhabitants. This is what I wish all of them.

Mr Chairman, I would like to associate myself with all the remarks made by the hon member Mr Abram. I want to say that over the many years that they have been in this country, the Indian community has a proud record for having produced leaders who have worked selflessly for the upliftment of their community. In doing so, they did not seek any material reward for themselves, nor were they motivated by any desire to use the system for personal gain. Names like P R Pather, Sorabjee Rustomjee, G M Naicker, A I Kajee, H M Naidoo, M E Sultan, A M Rajab and A M Moolla all stand as beacons for others, particularly for us in this Chamber, to emulate and to follow.

I am therefore pleased that the late A M Moolla’s son-in-law, the hon member for Verulam and the hon the Minister of the Budget, with whom I have differed on many occasions with regard to political opinions, but whose integrity and honesty I have always doubted…

Doubted? [Interjections.]

I meant to say that I have never doubted his integrity and honesty! I am pleased that he has followed these principles in the best tradition laid down by his late father-in-law. As we take leave of him, I want to wish him well. I want to say to him and the Moolla family in particular, as well as the Indian family in general, that we are proud of him for his contributions in the cause of the community.

We also say farewell to a far younger man who for personal reason does not intend to stand in the coming elections. I am referring to the hon member for Isipingo. His honesty and integrity have also been above reproach. As hon members know, he was prepared to foresake a friendship of many years in the cause of honesty and integrity. I would like to take this opportunity to salute both these hon members, and all other hon members who will not be coming back next year. I would like to wish them well.

Mr Chairman, I would like to take this opportunity in my role as Chief Whip, as well as the member for my constituency, to express a few words of thanks.

In my role as Chief Whip of this House, I would like to express my gratitude and thanks for the co-operation extended to me by the Director-General who has been promoted to another department. I found him to be most co-operative in whatever work I had to perform in the course of my duty. I again want to wish him well. He is retiring from his position here, and will be transferred to another department.

I think we should endeavour to keep him here. Why do we not offer him my salary? [Interjections.]

Well, should I still be here when the hon member returns, I will support him in that!

When I entered Parliament for the first time, I did so because I believed that this was a step towards reform. I want to thank those persons who made the reform process possible and who initiated it. I think hon members should remember them as well. On behalf of all hon members I want to express our appreciation to two very senior politicians of our country, namely the hon the State President and the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning. We may have differed from them on their methods and proposals, but let us not forget that they were the initiators of reform. They took the first step in that direction.

Hear, hear!

I want to thank Mr Speaker for his support in my role as Chief Whip. I also want to express my gratitude and thanks to the hon the Chairman of this House, as well as the previous Chairman. While the hon member Mr Abram was Chairman of the House, I enjoyed his co-operation and support. I want to express my gratitude and appreciation to him, as well.

I also want to thank the previous Chairman who is now the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare in the House of Delegates, as well as another previous Chairman, the hon member for Rylands. All of these hon members made my work easy.

I also wish to place on record my appreciation for the co-operation of the Chief Whip of Parliament. None of us knew anything about Whipping and he taught us how to do it. We learnt a lot from him.

I also want to thank the secretaries because without their help and guidance to all of us we would have known nothing about the workings of Parliament. In a very short space of time they transformed people who were completely inexperienced from apprentices into what they are today. We owe them a lot of gratitude. We also thank the Hansard personnel and the service officers for their support.

I thank all hon members who at some stage or another held the position of Leader of the House. They co-operated without any party-political partisanship and they conducted themselves well. I found this to be exemplary and I appreciate that.

I also want to take this opportunity to thank the hon Leader of the Official Opposition, who was the Chief Whip of the House before me. I have a lot of empathy with him because there was a tremendous amount of co-operation between us. People wondered how it was possible for us to remain friends in spite of all the fights we had across the floor of the House. It was only in that type of spirit that we were able to do our work.

I want to express special thanks to all hon members who co-operated with me as Whips because of one specific contribution that they made in this particular House. I want hon members to remember that when I initiated the question of amendment of the Rules in order to make it possible for us to have joint debates in the main Chamber of Parliament, I could only achieve it with the co-operation of the Whips of this House. [Interjections.] In my opinion that was one of the most significant contributions we as office-bearers could have made in the reform process. I want to express my gratitude and thanks to the Whips for the support the afforded me although I was in the opposition benches. I particularly want to thank the hon Leader of the Official Opposition, who was then the Chief Whip of the House, for his support because without his support I would not have achieved the acceptance of that amendment.

I also want to associate myself with all the sentiments that have been expressed in respect of all hon members who are retiring from this House and who are not seeking re-election. They still have time to reconsider their position and if they do so they may perhaps continue making a contribution. I thank them for their support and wish them well with whatever their pursuits may be after they have retired.

I wish all hon members in the House who are seeking re-election, as well as those outside the House who will be seeking election, the best of luck, because it is only through the process of participation and democracy that we can contribute to reform.

Last but not least, I want to express my gratitude and thanks to the members of the Ministers’ Council because in my role I had to liaise very closely with them. I am very grateful for their co-operation.

Mr Chairman, I want to associate myself with the expression of appreciation and gratitude to all of those that have made our life happy in Parliament. When hon members paid tribute to me for my services I was reminded of the following wise words of the late Dr A M Moolla:

This is the philosophy of a great South African. I think it is in those steps that I tried to follow. I will always be appreciative of his guidance in those early days. I want to say that when he was the Chairman of the SA Indian Council it was a pleasure for us—people like the hon member Mr Abram and the others of us—to serve under him. After this followed my service in the President’s Council under no less a person than Mr A L Schlebusch who was the Chairman of the President’s Council at the time. He gave us an insight as to how Government operates. For all this I am indeed most appreciative.

My parting words as I leave Parliament are that my departure from Parliament does not mean that I will not be involved with the community any longer. I shall continue to serve, as I have before, in all fields of human endeavour.

We in the House of Delegates have seen some turmoil but let us not be deterred by that turmoil. Those who are successful in the elections have an important role to play. We need to contribute to a South Africa which will be for all South Africans. That must be our aim when we come back. To those hon members who are successful I want to say that I wish them well.

Last, but not least, I want to congratulate Mr Wronsley on his appointment as the new Auditor-General. We wish him every success. It has been our pleasure to have had Mr Wronsley as our Director-General. He set the pace for us in his last year with us, and we will never look back on this with any regret, but only with pride.

Mr Chairman, I rise to endorse all that has been said by hon members here before me. I trust that those who will be elected on 6 September will continue to strive for the welfare of the country as a whole.

I was never a member of a political party. I was only invited to accept a nomination, which I did. According to my colleague the hon member for Reservoir Hills, who had it placed on record, I came in via the back door. [Interjections.] I can now give him the assurance that, no matter how wide the back door will be this time after 6 September, I shall not use it. Instead, I will be riding out into the sunset and I leave it to younger people—people with more brains and who are not yet senile like myself—to continue the work.

I would like to use the word “maaf” which is used by those persons who go on pilgrimages to beg forgiveness. I would like to say “maaf” for my razor-sharp tongue so often used in this House. I know I have cut to the bone many hon members in this House with the viciousness of my tongue, but that is required by politics. Either one kills, or one is killed.

I can mention for instance that when the hon the Minister of the Budget presented his last Budget, I told him that that could have been prepared by a petty clerk. He rose to object, but Mr Speaker who was in the Chair at the time said that I should proceed. It would appear that Mr Speaker endorsed my sentiments! For that, I want to give my “maaf” to the hon the Minister of the Budget.

I also extend it to other hon members, particularly the hon member for Camperdown, who is not here today. I cut him down very often and I said many things about him. I got past the hon member for Rylands when he was the Chairman of the House as well as all the other Chairmen. There are lots of things in Hansard which should not be there, but that is one of those things. [Interjections.] One has to give and take.

On one occasion the hon member for Camperdown crossed the floor and threatened to do me in. [Interjections.]

I then realised that I had really rattled him. The art of survival is that one must run away today so that one can live to fight tomorrow. There is no point in getting killed today standing up for a principle or anything. There is no need for heroics in life.

With these few words, Mr Chairman, I should like to express the fact that you are one of those good comrades and friends that I found in this House. Although we disagreed in politics, my approach towards this House has always been that I do and did not take my political differences and opinions outside the doors of this Chamber. [Interjections.]

The hon the Minister of Education and Culture will bear me out. I have sailed into him and cut him to shreds. I have been totally impolite towards him, but outside of this Chamber I have said that what happens in here I leave behind. Therefore there should be no rancour and no malice.

In fact, I think it was a very touching moment this morning in the Joint Chamber when one of the hon members of the House of Assembly—I cannot remember which hon member it was—called the hon member for Houghton “a hell of a woman and a real lady in every sense”, yet these two hon members are totally polarised in their politics.

Even more touching was the fact that as he went past her to take his seat, she rose and shook his hand. I say that that is the tradition in which this House should carry on.

Mr Chairman, I also take this opportunity of saying a few words. It is often said that it is better to hope than to arrive. I think we have arrived at that position now, after having been in Parliament for five years.

I want to take this opportunity to align myself with all the good things that have been said this morning about our colleagues and about the service rendered by officials and others. I also want to confirm the good things said about those who are taking leave of us—both our colleagues here, the MPs and others who are not returning, including our good, genial Director-General.

He is good—I did not say he was genial!

We have expressed our good wishes to him, but it is never too late to wish him everything of the best again, especially since he is being elevated. We are all happy about that.

I shall be failing in my duty if I did not take this opportunity of thanking every hon member in this House, both on the opposite side and on this side, for having allowed me to be the longest serving Minister in the House. That was only possible because of the co-operation I have received from both sides. I am aware of the fact that I have been criticised left, right and centre, but the criticisms were well-meant. I could very well at this moment say that I came, I saw and I learnt. I shall continue to learn, because the learning process never ends.

I also want to take this opportunity to thank all hon members again for having made my position as Acting Chairman of the Ministers’ Council and Acting Minister of Housing, during the short period between 1 January and 21 March of this year, a very pleasant one by co-operating with me. I found that during that period the discussions and meetings with hon members of the House were very pleasant indeed. I want to place on record my thanks to every hon member in this House.

I once again wish to thank hon members for everything that we have enjoyed here during the past five years. I hope that all those who are contending seats in their own constituencies will be allowed to come back to serve here for another five years.

Debate concluded.

Question agreed to.