House of Assembly: Vol11 - MONDAY 24 APRIL 1989

MONDAY, 24 APRIL 1989 PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE—CHAMBER OF PARLIAMENT Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the Chamber of Parliament at 14h15.

Dr H M J van Rensburg, as Chairman, took the Chair and read Prayers.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS—see col 6589.

APPROPRIATION BILL (Consideration of Schedules resumed)

Debate on Vote No 26—“Police”:

*The MINISTER OF LAW AND ORDER:

Mr Chairman, to begin with I wish to bring one or two matters to the attention of hon members of the Committee. I ask hon members for their patience in this regard for a few minutes.

Please allow me to thank hon members of Parliament on behalf of the SA Police for the positive things they have said and done with regard to members of the Force. We have made mistakes, and we have taken that criticism which was justified and constructive, to heart. In that regard we do not differ with one another. With regard to the unjustified and unfair criticism which was also expressed by a number of hon members, I shall cross swords with them and put forward a correct and a fair standpoint. Hon members may rest assured, however, that the SA Police will leave no stone unturned in protecting and serving hon members and all the people of South Africa to the best of its ability.

I should like to express my sincere sympathy with the next of kin of those policemen andwomen who lost their lives in the execution of their duties during the past year. This includes those seconded policemen who laid down their lives in the struggle against Swapo during the past few weeks. We pay them the tribute which they deserve. We honour their memory. I should also like to wish all the injured a speedy and complete recovery.

The De Witt Committee, which was appointed on 2 September 1987 with instructions “to investigate present, as well as future ways in which to deal with crime and security requirements of the RSA”, has already made great progress in its activities. It is expected that the committee will conclude its activities later this year. I have accepted an interim recommendation that the country be divided into 10 regions for the purposes of the organisation of the Force. The benefits of this are explained fully in the annual report of the Commissioner of Police. It is intended to implement this amendment as quickly as possible. This is an imaginative development aimed at modernising and adapting the Force with a view to the demands of the future. I should like to express my sincere gratitude and appreciation to the chairman, Gen De Witt, and the members of the committee, for the outstanding work that is being done under his leadership. The Force in South Africa will reap the fruits of this investigation in the days that lie ahead.

Although the SA Police is suffering from a serious lack of funds, we are geared to keeping pace as far as possible with the demands which a rapidly changing South Africa is making on the Force. We believe that this is the only way in which we shall succeed in providing South Africa and its people with an effective protection service.

In this regard I am pleased to be able to announce that the SA Police is at present taking into commission two deepsea class twin-hulled diesel powered boats, each 10 metres long, with a view to their utilisation in Table Bay and Mossel Bay. These vessels have been specially designed to operate both in very rough seas and in very shallow water. Furthermore, three coast guard boats, which will be used primarily for patrol and rescue work, are also being positioned at strategic places along the coast as new additions to the Police’s water division. Finally, 11 smaller boats, with the primary aim of rescue actions during floods, have also recently been taken into commission.

I wish to express my sincere gratitude and appreciation for the outstanding way in which all the members of the SA Police, from the Commissioner to the youngest constable—White, Coloured, Asian and Black men and women— once again protected and served the country and its people during the past year. Their selfless service made South Africa a far safer place to live in. May they all be granted the power and the strength to perform this difficult task in the future.

This year is a very special year for the women in the Force. We are paying tribute specifically to them for the wonderful work they are doing. Shoulder to shoulder with their male colleagues, they are pulling their weight magnificently in the Force. At this moment the safety and protection of Parliament and its hon members rests completely in the capable hands of our policewomen. If hon members were to go and have a look, they would see them outside. [Interjections.] They are keeping hon members safe; they can be quite certain of that.

I should like to say a few words about crime in the Republic. Crime in all shapes and forms has assumed unacceptable proportions in the Republic over the past four years. However, the increase in crime is a worrying phenomenon throughout the world and is at least not confined only to South Africa. There are various reasons for this increase in South Africa. The major reasons are a country-wide spate of unrest and violence, unprecedentedly high unemployment and other socio-economic constraints in our communities.

Whilst this situation prevailed, the SAP suffered from a serious lack of manpower and means with which to perform our task. However, the Police persevered under difficult conditions and slowly but surely succeeded in halting and beginning to turn this tide. Although the situation is still far from satisfactory, the following few statistics show that we are, in fact, making progress.

There was a slight decrease of 0,17% if the figure in respect of reported serious crimes—so-called A-crimes—for 1986 is compared to that for 1988. Statistics also show, for example, that crimes against property—house-breaking, theft and so on—also reflected a decrease during the same period. On the other hand, crimes involving personal violence—such as murder and rape— continued to reflect a disturbing increase. It is heartening to be able to say, however, that at the same time the percentage of solved cases in respect of serious crimes increased by approximately 6% during the same period.

The number of reports in respect of less serious infringements of the law—so-called B-crimes— unfortunately increased by 22% during the same period. On the other hand, I can say that the percentage of solved cases in respect of this type of crime is almost 100% in South Africa today.

I should also like to say a word about drugs and refer to the drug problem in South Africa. According to information at our disposal it would appear at present that our country has become the largest market south of the Sahara for certain extremely dangerous drugs such as Mandrax. During the past week the newspapers have once again been full of reports about a Mandrax factory that has been discovered.

In fact, four Asian men are to appear in court in Durban today, having been caught in possession of 210 kilograms of methaqualone powder which is used in the manufacture of Mandrax tablets. Over one million Mandrax tablets could have been manufactured from this powder. This breakthrough was the result of sustained detective work over a period of approximately a year. I wish to express my gratitude for the zeal displayed by this team of investigators.

Until fairly recently the use of cocaine in South Africa was entirely unknown. However, this extremely narcotic substance drew some attention a while ago when a dealer in the Cape Peninsula was caught in the process of attempting to develop a cocaine smuggling network in the RSA. Cocaine worth R600 000 was found in his possession.

The chief reason for the increase in drug abuse and drug smuggling in our country is to be found in the economic prosperity which the Republic is experiencing in the African context. Aside from this, it is relatively easy to bring the deadly substance into the country, and our major combating instrument, the SAP, is suffering from a serious shortage of manpower and resources with which to combat this evil more effectively. What is more, in my view the penalties which may be imposed today are no longer keeping pace with the seriousness of the situation. I express my sincere gratitude and appreciation for the days and nights of sacrifice and for the excellent work which this small division of the SAP is doing.

However, the best efforts of the SAP would be inadequate if our greatest partner in the struggle against crime, our public, were not there to support us. Without their help we shall not win. I should like to attest to the wonderful support which we receive from our public, and I shall just mention two recent examples.

I wish to refer firstly to Business Watch. This partnership project between the SAP and our business community has now been evaluated in Johannesburg up to the end of March 1989. It was a resounding success and exceeded all expectations. Crime in the area concerned has decreased significantly.

I have already issued instructions, in collaboration with the Commissioner of Police, for this system to be extended to other centres as quickly as possible. Planning has already reached an advanced stage and a similar business watch is also going to be organised here in Cape Town within the foreseeable future. I wish to emphasise that such a system is not possible without the enthusiastic co-operation and support of our public.

Next I wish to refer to the Reservist Air Wing. The virtual indispensability of the use of aeroplanes in the fight against crime became strongly apparent immediately after the commissioning of the SAP Air Wing. However, we do not possess nearly enough aircraft to meet the requirements, and there are no funds to purchase any more. For this reason it is a pleasure for me to be able to announce today that I have approved in principle an offer by approximately 30 private helicopter owner-pilots, all of whom are members of the public, to form a reservist air wing for the SAP. It is presently being formed in practice and will be put into commission as quickly as possible. This is a wonderful development which is going to bring about a considerable extension of our capability to take even more effective action throughout the country. I express my sincere gratitude to these members of the public.

If we look to the future for a moment, we know that we still have an uphill battle ahead of us. However, we are also inspired and determined to win the battle. We have a message for all criminals. This also applies to those people who steal money and think they can get away with it: Crime does not pay. We shall seek you out and bring you to book, regardless of how clever your plans are. We are not prepared to allow people to get away with crime. Even if it takes time, we shall leave no stone unturned in catching you. We are going to make you pay the price for your crimes insofar as it is within our power to do so.

I should also like to make a few brief remarks with regard to the unrest situation in Natal. The prolonged unrest in most of the Black residential areas surrounding Durban and Pietermaritzburg in Natal is a source of serious concern to the SAP and the authorities. From the time the unrest suddenly and dramatically began to flare up around September 1987, up to 31 March 1989, the following incidents of unrest and violence occurred:

Incidents of unrest

4 920

Persons injured

862

Persons killed

749

An analysis of this data also reveals the following details with regard to persons injured and killed:

Injured by the Security Forces

112

Injured by other persons

750

Killed by the Security Forces

44

Killed by other persons

705

This appalling picture of destruction of property and loss of life is totally unacceptable to the SAP and the authorities. Although there is a great deal at stake for some organisations and people in this power struggle, we are of the opinion that an end must be put to this senseless violence. Peace-loving inhabitants also expect this of us. Like us, they are tired of the violence.

Security actions in the past have met with varying degrees of success. At times unrest has abated, only to flare up again. Furthermore, other attempts have been made in the past without success. One such attempt was a so-called peace agreement between Inkatha and Cosatu-UDF. The revolutionary Cosatu-UDF alliance made a great song and dance about the fact that they had ostensibly restored peace. However, from the day on which they announced this—2 September 1988—up to 31 March this year, the following has happened:

Incidents of unrest

1 564

Injured

434

Killed

279

It is therefore clear that this was a hollow claim and a futile effort. What is more, it could not but be otherwise. They were the agents who acted on the orders of the ANC-SACP alliance. This brotherhood of revolutionary organisations, the ANC-SACP, are violent terrorist organisations. They are not really interested in peace. Their declared ultimate objective is in reality a classless communist South African society. They wish to achieve this by way of, inter alia, murder and violence. Of course they conceal this behind fine-sounding slogans such as “non-racial democracy”, “freedom for all”, etc. They are pulling the wool over the eyes of many naive people in a devious manner, but they are guilty of the deaths of hundreds of defenceless Black South Africans in the unrest areas of Natal and South Africa. They must come and explain this to moderate South Africans of all races and colours. We are not going to let them get away with the excuse that it is the fault of “apartheid”.

Now the ANC has once again instructed Cosatu-UDF to come forward with a new so-called peace initiative. It must now be conducted under the cloak of the churches. Like innocent lambs being led to the slaughter, those naive good clerics are now being roped in by the ANC-SACP to do their devilish work for them. The ANC-SACP is not prepared to abandon violence. Neither is it prepared to abandon violence in Natal. Fine-sounding slogans and words are merely a smokescreen behind which they are hiding. At the same time, however, they continue in their efforts to achieve their objective for South Africa by means of murder and violence.

It is irrefutably true that the ANC, UDF and Cosatu, puppets of the SACP, cannot bring about peace and stability on their own. They only act on orders—that is why they do nothing without instructions from Lusaka. So far they have brought only unrest, violence and untold misery to the people of Natal and South Africa. The proof is there for everyone who chooses to see it.

Apart from this chief cause, namely the power struggle between Inkatha and the UDF, there are certain other secondary causes of the violence. These are, inter alia, tribal and family strife, crime, poor socio-economic conditions, etc. Be this as it may, the SA Police has recently launched a fresh, intensive investigation into the entire situation. Urgent discussions have also been held with Chief Minister Buthelezi. He is equally concerned about the senseless violence and agrees that the murder and violence being committed on defenceless people must now come to an end. Solutions to the problems will not be easy to find and neither will they be found overnight. Everyone concerned will, however, have to do their share—politicians, Government institutions, State departments, the private sector, the general public, as well as the inhabitants of those areas.

As a first step the SA Police envisages placing a general of the Force in overall control of the total policing task. He will manage and co-ordinate all the actions of the Police in all the unrest-stricken areas. He will be supported by a brigadier who will be in charge of the overall co-ordination of operations.

Furthermore, it is envisaged to deploy more manpower and equipment in these areas at the same time. This includes more vehicles and more semi-permanent police stations, spread over a wide area. If necessary, use will be made of the assistance of the Defence Force. Extra teams of experienced detectives are being formed and will pay very close attention to the complaints of inhabitants. At the same time security branches are being reinforced and will be geared to clamping down on those elements which endanger the safety of the public and the maintenance of public order.

We know that alternative structures such as “street committees”, “people’s courts”, “civic associations”, etc, are active underground in some areas. They are chiefly responsible for the unrest and violence. We are now going to flush them out. However, in the process we are going to take action against people, against activists and radicals. We are going to clamp down on them. They are going to kick up a great fuss once again. We know that in advance. However, we cannot allow ourselves to be deterred by this. I want to issue a warning that we are going to seize them in an iron grip, without fear or favour. The SAP is going to restore law and order, peace and stability in Natal as quickly as possible. We owe it to the millions of defenceless people who are being terrorised by these unscrupulous activists, radical revolutionaries and criminals.

*Mr S P VAN VUUREN:

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure and a privilege for me to be able to take part in this debate this afternoon since the CP is proud of every member of the SAP, who frequently put their lives on the line in order to give effect to the motto of the SAP, namely: We protect and we serve. It is a pleasure and a privilege for me to be able to take part in this debate. The Official Opposition in the House of Assembly is proud of every member of the SAP, who have once again been loyal to the creed of the SA Police in serving the RSA during the past year. We also pay tribute to all those members of the Force who did not show any hesitation during the past year, even when the supreme sacrifice was asked of them, because they remained true to the closing words of the creed of the South African Police: At thy will to live or perish, Oh! South Africa dear land.

I am also pleased to pay tribute to all those members of the SAP who were accorded the honour of receiving honourable mentions, awards and commendations during the past year. In this regard I am thinking particularly of the late Constable Danie Boshoff, to whom the South African Police Silver Cross for Gallantry was awarded posthumously for the bravery which he displayed in a skirmish with terrorists in the Black residential area of Ventersdorp. The late Constable Boshoff joined the Force on 24 June 1986 and after a mere 10 months he was seriously wounded by terrorists, and subsequently died of his wounds. The late Constable Boshoff became involved in a gun-fight with three Black men. After help had arrived on the scene, it was established that Constable Boshoff had been seriously wounded. Information having been received that two Blacks were hiding in a house, the house was cordoned off and one of the men in the house was killed and the other wounded.

It appears from the investigation that Constable Boshoff returned the terrorists’ fire and wounded one terrorist in the leg. Despite the fact that the late Constable Boshoff was alone, he nevertheless did not hesitate to take action and to place his life in danger. As a result of the late Constable Boshoffs actions, 25 mini-limpet mines, 16 hand-grenades, eight 9 mm Makarov magazines, five 9 mm Makarov pistols, 100 9 mm Makarov-rounds and 59 mechanical detonator caps for limpet mines were seized.

Although Constable Boshoff made the supreme sacrifice in the execution of his duties, through his alertness and brave action he nevertheless saved the lives of many innocent people who could possibly have died as a result of acts of terror employing these specific weapons, limpet mines, etc. We therefore pay tribute to Constable Boshoff for his brave action and address a word of comfort to his mother, namely that Danie Boshoffs courageous actions are also being honoured here in the highest Chamber in the land.

I should also like to thank the Commissioner of the SAP, General Hennie de Witt, for the annual report that has been compiled and published. A disturbing matter emanates from this annual report, however, and that is the fact that the SAP possesses only 20 735 vehicles for the performance of every facet of the Police’s duties. It is difficult to believe that the entire Police Force in South Africa possesses only 20 735 vehicles with which to perform all their functions. The Police are expected to perform all their duties properly, but only 20 735 vehicles are made available for the entire RSA. Surely this is simply not enough!

I had personal experience of this when I paid a courtesy visit to one of the police stations in my constituency. Various calls came in with regard to complaints in the ward. The policemen who were present at the station were unfortunately unable to go and investigate the complaints because the station commander had had to go and give evidence in the regional court in another town and had gone in the vehicle. I therefore wish to make an appeal to the hon the Minister to correct this matter. The men in blue cannot do their work properly if the hon the Minister does not give them the tools and the vehicles with which to do it.

A matter of great importance, and one which requires urgent attention, is a matter which arises out of an open-air rally which took place on 18 December 1988 at a certain motel at Boshoek in the Ventersdorp constituency. Boshoek is situated in the Ventersdorp constituency, approximately 40 km from Rustenburg, and is virtually encircled by Bophuthatswana. On 18 December 1988 an open-air rally took place at a certain motel which was situated virtually next door to the White primary school. The motel concerned has facilities for 120 people. According to the news media the gathering was planned for 4 000 people, but 14 000 people apparently turned up. Yes, Sir, 14 000 Blacks turned up and this occurred at a site which was by no means suitable for this purpose, and to cap it all this occurred whilst the present state of emergency and emergency regulations were in force.

Spontaneous rioting broke out on the premises and spread to an adjacent property as well as the grounds of the White primary school. Can hon members imagine for one moment what would have happened if the school had been in progress at that stage? The rioting spread even further to the Boshoek-Rustenburg road, where vehicles were stoned and passengers were seriously injured. This is a worrying incident which merits decisive and urgent attention, since it poses a danger to the inhabitants of Boshoek, as well as to the general public which has to make use of this particular road. The following question therefore arises involuntarily: Was permission granted for the holding of the rally? Was the necessary permission, which is required in terms of the emergency regulations, obtained? If permission was, in fact, granted, the question arises as to whether the SAP, and in particular the security branch of the SAP, were ever approached before such permission was granted. If the SAP were, in fact, approached, we should like to know what the SAP’s recommendation was, and whether the permission which was, in fact, granted was not in conflict with the SAP’s advice and recommendation.

It is vital that the hon the Minister devote his attention to opening a police station in Boshoek so that it will no longer be necessary for the police at Rustenburg, which is a long way away, to drive through Bophuthatswana in order to investigate complaints at Boshoek. I am therefore asking that Boshoek should obtain a police station. [Time expired.]

*Mr D W N JOSEPHS:

Mr Chairman, for the first time in the history of Parliament the LP agrees with the CP in that the previous speaker of the CP said—I was pleased to hear this—that the CP was proud of all policemen in the Force. [Interjections.] We shall support him in that if the CP can give us the assurance that people of colour are included in this too. If that is the case, we are in agreement with the CP today.

*Mr S P VAN VUUREN:

Were you sitting on your ears when I spoke? [Interjections.]

*The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Assembly):

Order! I am not going to permit people to shout across the floor of the Committee. The hon member for Riversdal may proceed.

*Mr D W N JOSEPHS:

I should also like the CP to tell me whether those school grounds where the 14 Blacks were are now pitch-black or still grass-green.

Since my time is limited, I do not really want to reply to that hon member. I should like to go on to the Vote under discussion. We in the LP associate ourselves with the hon the Minister’s words of consolation to the families of those members of the Force who made the supreme sacrifice.

The Police Force is our country’s first line of defence, protection and assistance. They are the people who maintain law and order and combat crime and terror. We were disturbed to take cognisance of the restricted funds allocated to the Law and Order Vote. As a result of the cutbacks, the Department of Law and Order had to be scaled down. Many posts could not be filled. Equipment could not be purchased and 2 500 policemen could not be trained.

Serious crime showed an increase in 1988. General crimes of violence against people, as well as property-related crimes, showed an increase. Moral crimes such as sodomy, incest, indecent assault, intercourse with minor girls, childstealing and cruelty to and the abuse of children have shown alarming increases. I attribute this increase in crime to the cutbacks. The Police Force cannot take effective action if it does not have the necessary manpower and equipment.

Let me give the Committee a peek into what the Police Force did during the flood disasters as from the beginning of February last year. There were floods and flood damage in 12 of the 19 police sectors. Flooding extended from the east to the west and from the south to the north of the Republic. The extent of the floods compelled the SA Police to send reinforcements in the form of manpower, vehicles, boats and helicopters to all the relevant sectors.

The involvement of the SA Police was as follows: The number of members used exclusively for the granting of assistance and for rescue work, was 4 329. The number of kilometres covered in vehicles was 372 022 km, which is equal to 9¼ times around the world. The number of people saved was as follows: 621 Blacks, 327 Whites, 14 Coloureds and 46 Asians. The number of hours worked overtime was 90 378 hours. If one takes into account that the total of 90 000 hours worked overtime actually represents 11 250 normal 8-hour working days or 30 years’ working days, one realises that these members had little or no rest.

The criminal element did not disappear during the flood. As a result the SA Police had their work cut out with people who stripped homes, that their owners had had to vacate, of their contents. This state of affairs placed an extra burden on the members of the Police Force in that apart from rescue work, they also had to guard vacated houses in order to prevent theft.

In order to promote more effective action in the future, it is essential that the SA Police have more manpower and more equipment. In order to operate effectively, the hon the Minister of Law and Order will have to negotiate with the hon the Minister of Finance in such a way that there are no cutbacks in this Vote in future. The Department of Law and Order should rather receive what it requests.

The shortage of funds is always an excuse for the extent of discrimination that still exists in the Police Force. The travelling expenses of White parents to the annual passing-out parade are paid, whereas Coloured parents have to get there at their own expense. [Interjections.] The hon the Minister will have to pay attention to this irregularity. He will have to find funds in order to do justice to the Coloured mothers and fathers.

I understand that White policemen receive a transport allowance similar to a danger allowance if they have to travel through a Coloured or Black residential area to get to work from their homes. [Interjections.] Our Coloured and Black policemen live in those residential areas, after all. If White policemen can receive an allowance, we want the hon the Minister to consider also giving our Coloured, Black and Indian policemen an allowance.

Members of the SAP declare in their creed that they are prepared to foster sound inter-group relations based on Christian and religious principles. The hon the Minister, his hon Deputy Minister, his general staff and his officers do a great deal to foster good inter-group relations. The hon the Minister has done a great deal to enhance the image of the SAP, but I am afraid that certain policemen fail him and stab him in the back with their conduct towards the Coloured community.

My hon colleague, the hon the Deputy Minister of Education and Culture in the House of Representatives and former chairman of the Joint Committee on Security Services, the hon member for Mamre, made a serious appeal last year for more sympathetic consideration to be given to people in the rural areas who enjoyed taking a drink. Apparently nothing has been done about this. The action of certain policemen against these people continues. Over weekends our people, who earn so little, are thrown into police vans, locked up and then punished with fines that vary between R30 and R50.

The hon the Minister of Law and Order and the hon the Minister of Economic Affairs and Technology will have to get together to reconsider and revise the Liquor Amendment Act. There is something very wrong somewhere and it must be rectified. In South Africa it is legal for a farmer to plant a grape-vine. It is legal to harvest and press grapes. It is legal to ferment and store grape juice. It is legal to bottle the fermented juice and to sell the bottled juice to a hotelier. It is legal for the hotelier to sell the bottled wine. It is legal to sell wine per glass.

*Mr J C OOSTHUIZEN:

It is legal to drink.

*Mr D W N JOSEPHS:

It is legal to drink a glass of wine, but it is illegal …

*Mr J C OOSTHUIZEN:

To become inebriated!

*Mr D W N JOSEPHS:

… just as soon as the wine arrives in one’s stomach! [Interjections.] This will have to receive the hon the Minister’s attention. I mention that because as soon as that person leaves the counter to go outside, he is caught, locked up and charged with being under the influence of alcohol. In addition he is fined R30 or R50.

A glass of dry wine that should have cost 50 cents in reality costs a Coloured man in the South African rural areas R30,50 or sometimes R50,50. [Interjections.] I speak from experience. That is what really happens. [Interjections.] No, hon members must not attach an erroneous interpretation to my experience.

This injustice must cease. I would say the hon the Minister should give instructions that the drying out process used in the urban areas be implemented in the rural areas. Last year 12 000 of the 13 000 people who were arrested because they were under the influence of liquor were subjected to a drying out process of this kind. Subsequent to this people were sent home after 04h00 without having to pay a fine.

Our people in the rural areas do not earn what the city people earn. Wages in the rural areas are meagre. Rural employers are in the habit of paying their employees every 14 days so that it looks as though they are giving these people good wages. They call it a “fortnight” in the rural areas. It is on this occasion that some policemen—I do not know which political party’s or organisation’s principles are endorsed by those policemen—sometimes act in this beastly way. People are locked up if they put even a foot wrong. People who do not even use liquor are locked up. Do hon members know why? Because the policeman—I am going to quote him verbatim—says: “I do not like your mug (gevreet).” That is the language used when talking to the Coloureds in the rural areas. A mother is addressed in the ugliest possible manner when action is taken against her child who is helping another elderly woman to get her packages onto the bus. Such a mother is told: “Shut your mouth, your boy (klong) is drunk.”

This kind of action on the part of certain White policemen damages the image of the Police Force. It bedevils good group relations. It hampers co-operation between the Coloured community and the Police Force. It gives rise to hatred and enmity between Whites and Coloureds. They do not act in this way when it comes to Whites in the rural areas. In my opinion Whites also take a drink. We do not want special treatment; we would merely like to be treated as human beings.

I make a serious appeal to the hon the Minister to take firm action against the policemen who stab him in the back in this way, and do so much damage to the good image he is developing. Instruct the policemen to take stricter action against the dagga and Mandrax smugglers.

*HON MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

*Mr D W N JOSEPHS:

Take stricter action and catch the members of gangs who terrorise our residential areas and schools to such an extent. [Interjections.] In these uncertain days and troublesome times, we ask for security and protection. All we ask is: Protect and serve us!

In conclusion we should like to convey our sincere condolences to the relatives of the hon member Mr Pillay of the House of Delegates who died of a heart attack. We express our sincere condolences, and we wish them everything of the best in this dark hour of affliction.

Rev E J MANIKKAM:

Mr Chairman, with respect, I may be out of order, but may I be allowed just to explain that that news information on SATV was incorrect …

The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Assembly):

Order! I have already been requested by an hon member of the House of Delegates to give him an opportunity to put the matter in its correct perspective. I have acceded to that request. If, therefore, the hon member for Rylands will just be patient for a little while, the matter will be dealt with.

Rev E J MANIKKAM:

Thank you, Mr Chairman. We thank the hon member for his concern.

*Mr H A SMIT:

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to speak after the hon member for Riversdal. Ever since I have known him, he has had one characteristic that I do not think any of us would dispute, and that is his love of his fatherland. I also want to congratulate him on his new appointment and wish him everything of the best.

I came to know the hon member for Riversdal as a teetotaller. The only thing I want to say to him this afternoon is that even if that tot costs as much as R50 a glass, it will be a bargain! [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, please allow me to turn to you as well as to one or two other hon members in the House today. They are the hon member for Kimberley South and then specifically the hon the Minister of Law and Order, who were elected as members of the House of Assembly on 24 April 1974. That is exactly 15 years ago today, and I should like to congratulate them. They qualify for the maximum pension today. [Interjections.] At the same time we want to wish the hon the Minister everything of the best for the next 15 years in this office.

When we walked through the passage this morning and I saw all the policewomen in their blue uniforms, I wanted to compliment the hon the Minister. This is a good change, and perhaps he should make it a permanent arrangement. The men came to work in suits today, and as I looked at the women I thought of the words of Napoleon when he sent his ambassador to Warsaw. It is claimed that he said: “Entertain well and take good care of the women.” We want to tell the hon the Minister to take good care of the policewomen.

I should like to acknowledge the hon the Minister, the hon the Deputy Minister, the Commissioner and, through him, the officers as well as every member of the SAP for projecting the image of the SAP—especially during the past few years. The image of the SAP has been changed into one of friendliness, courtesy and accessibility. I want to tell the hon the Minister that under his leadership, the SAP has become a winning team. I need only refer to certain reports. The first is a letter from the most recent Servamus which reads as follows:

I am a coloured girl of 16 years, named Spaas Jonathan.

She comes from the hon member for Bethels-dorp’s region, and she concludes:

The SAP have a hand greater than the blue sky.

This is the kind of evidence that makes the SAP a winning team.

I also want to refer to two reports in Die Burger. The first appeared on 28 February 1989 with the heading “Polisieman ‘bekeer’ hawemeisies” and reads as follows:

Die bevelvoerder van die Tafelbaaise polisie-kantoor het homself die amp van welsynwer-ker opgelê deurdat hy die afgelope twee jaar eiehandig gesorg het dat tientalle minderjarige kinders wat prostitusie in die hawe wou be-dryf, dié “beroep” opgesê en die hawegebied verlaat het.

Another headline—and I could quote many today—reads: “Bendes verruil messe vir ’n sok-kerbal”. It refers to Maj Johan Kleyn of Gugu-letu who got two fighting factions around the table, and eventually got them to play soccer against one another whereas they had been involved in skirmishes and numerous people had lost their lives only the year before.

When I pay tribute to members of the SAP this afternoon, hon members will permit me—since this may be the last time Commissioner Hennie de Witt will be present at a discussion of the Vote—to thank him on our behalf and wish him everything of the best for the years that lie ahead.

Without wasting words, I want to tell him that I have always described him as a man for all seasons. I want to thank him for years of service rendered in the SAP to the public of the RSA.

When we look at the annual report, we find that 80 policemen gave their lives during the past report year in the service of their people and their fatherland and in the performance of their duty. We should also like to pay tribute today to members of the SAP who have rendered service in the operational area over the years. We want to pay tribute to every member of the SAP and every member of the security forces, as well as their families, who played a part in attaining success, to those men and women who often place their lives at stake in order to protect their fellow human beings against the forces of evil, and to their loved ones who often anxiously await their safe return. They deserve the praise and thanks of each of us, at least of every inhabitant and citizen of this country who puts the interests of security first.

With regard to the statistics as to the extent of the work, the hon member effectively pointed out the number of hours worked by members of the Force during the past year. The approved establishment is 64 800, whereas the actual establishment at present is only in the region of 60 800, which makes it clear that an enormous additional workload is being placed on members of the Force. We can look at certain aspects of the SAP’s activities. I want to refer to a total of 1 008 rescue attempts that were carried out, and 367 bodies which were removed, to mention only a couple. What I am trying to say is that we shall have to equip the SAP with better equipment. Obviously that will cost money. I am talking about equipment such as helicopters, boats, heavy vehicles, four-wheel drive vehicles, etc.

We also want to pay tribute to the SAP this afternoon for the part they played in the hijack drama on 13 September last year during the Pope’s visit to Lesotho.

I want to congratulate the commissioner on this annual report. The aspect I found most memorable is on page 7, with reference to the Reserve Police Force. I quote:

… an increasing number of members of the public who offered their services and, without remuneration, rendered voluntary service to the country and its peoples.

I continue:

As a result of this decision, the reservists succeeded in rendering 16 880 753 hours of service.

This is a service to their people and their fatherland, a service that we may not underestimate.

The SAP has moved towards the people. The best illustration of this that I found last year was during our visit to Maleoskop. I also want to thank the hon the Minister on this occasion for the enlightening tour he arranged for us. During our visit to Maleoskop, I was impressed by the new approach followed by the SAP with regard to environmental and nature conservation, a strategy that was launched in 1987. The SAP is in possession of numerous sites covering thousands of hectares. This land is sensitive area which has to receive intensive care. The Police have two points of departure. In the first place it is their objective to retain the environment in its natural state as far as possible. Secondly they do their best to restore areas where possible degeneration has in fact taken place. Consequently it is a good thing that the SAP asked the Transvaal Provincial Administration in 1987 to do an impact study for them with regard to continued nature conservation. I am pleased to be able to say that Maleoskop may be declared a nature reserve one of these days.

Other spheres that are under consideration or are being investigated at the moment include the site at Verdrag in the Rankins Pass district as well as at Slagboom in the Addo district. In my opinion we should extend this principle to other spheres as well. Ultimately we must ensure that all the land that is under the control of the SAP is effectively incorporated into this system. It is striking to see how much game has been resettled in the Maleoskop area. I have been told that the resettled game there comprises 30 kudus, 9 zebras, 13 gemsbok, 50 blesbuck, 40 impalas, 15 mountain reedbuck and one ostrich as well as numerous other kinds of small game. Having said all that about conservation, the SAP cannot do one thing and omit to do the other.

With reference to the protection of the Republic’s internal security, it is very clear to me when I look at all the reports that the SAP has succeeded in resisting the revolutionary organisations’ so-called military onslaught. It has become clear to the ANC, the UDF and their sympathisers that they cannot use violence to force South Africa and its institutions to its knees.

It is true that the prevention of crime is a fundamental objective of policing. The SAP cannot do this alone, however. It needs an ally in the general public. The prevention of crime has to be approached from various angles. In the first place I see that we should pay special attention— the hon member referred to this—to the social upliftment of all our people, because that is the basis of all crime. We shall have to ensure that we improve the living conditions of all our people. We shall have to see to it that we create sufficient employment opportunities and provide the necessary training so that people do not need to steal or murder in order to keep going. We shall have to reduce the physical opportunities to commit crimes. Some examples comprise looking at the physical presence of the “bobby”, the policeman on the beat. We shall have to take a look at our security guard system, at our locks, at obstructions, at electronic detectors, household security, and so on.

Another aspect is the prevention of crime by means of environmental design. Without going into detail, I want to say we shall have to give increasing attention to access control as well as surveillance. The manifestation of crime must be combated; that is a fact.

I think it is important to mention two facets in particular that in my opinion have been very successful during the past year. The one concerns the use of police students and the other the use of reservists. Between 1 January 1988 and the end of December 1988, a total of 1 357 students were used to prevent crime over weekends. A total of 89 600 police reservists were used. These people were all used over weekends. Some of the successes were that in the process 34 000 people were arrested, approximately 5 000 received warnings and approximately 7 000 were summonsed.

I want to conclude. The ultimate success does not reside in the SAP’s exercising authority and combating crime. The ultimate success will reside in the extent to which the SAP succeeds in making the general public an ally in this process. I say unequivocally this afternoon that that is happening, and we thank and honour those who have made this process possible. We wish them everything of the best in the year that lies ahead.

Mr K CHETTY:

Mr Chairman, before I start the debate, I just want to put the record straight. Mr C Pillay and Mr A K Pillay are both alive and kicking. Unfortunately there was an error in the Press and the TV coverage. We would therefore just like to put the record straight.

On behalf of Solidarity I wish to place on record our sympathies to those who have lost their loved ones in the course of their duties. I also wish to congratulate the hon the Minister and his department on their diligence in the uphill fight against drugs in this country. As hon members will know, the Police recently uncovered a major manufacturing outlet of Mandrax tablets in the Transvaal. I hope the Police will continue to get rid of this evil in our society. However, the Police can only do so with the co-operation of society itself.

I would like to know from the hon the Minister what is being done for those drug addicts who are detained. They are put in the same cells as other criminals. I want to make a special plea on behalf of these sick people. I call them sick because they need expert help. Some of them have been taking drugs for many years and this obviously affects them badly. There is no point in our putting them into cells. We need to help them. I would appreciate it if the hon the Minister gave this matter his urgent attention.

I would also like to point out that I am aware of certain police stations which practise discrimination, especially in the Durban area. Certain non-White officers hold higher ranks than White officers, but in some instances White constables are put in charge of these non-White officers at their stations. They do this at the instruction of their station commanders. Such a practice is demotivating and has to be eradicated. I know that the hon the Minister is not in favour of discrimination and that he will therefore put this right.

It has also been brought to my attention that policemen, especially at the Louis Botha Airport, have two separate parades based on race. There is no need for two separate parades. This has to be rectified. During a debate in the House of Delegates last year, the hon the Minister spoke of a certain fingerprint office in Chatsworth. He did mention that progress was being made. I hope and trust that the hon the Minister will now be able to give us some favourable answers.

I also raised the matter of a dog unit as far as Chatsworth and Phoenix are concerned. I have dealt with this departmentally during the course of the year, but up to now I have not received any satisfactory reply from the department. I hope that the hon the Minister will also look into this. As he knows, the present dog unit that operates at the C R Swart Square, is not adequate to cope with the two large Indian townships, namely Chatsworth and Phoenix, as well as other areas.

Why is there always a shortage of vehicles, especially in the areas of Chatsworth and Phoenix? Moreover, vehicles are not equipped with radios. This is giving the policemen a really hard time in performing their duties. In many instances policemen have to telephone from one complainant’s home to get more details before they can proceed to their next complainant. I believe that it is a pity to work in such a primitive way in this modern day and age.

I have noticed that promotions in the South African Police Force have slowed down tremendously, especially among non-Whites. I hope the hon the Minister will also look at this.

I now turn to the question of police stations. I have raised the issue regarding additional police stations, especially in Chatsworth. I have been given assurances that the Bayview police station will get off the ground as soon as possible. Up to now we have not received any indication as to when this project is going to get under way. I hope the hon the Minister will give us a favourable reply with regard to this.

I would like to mention some disturbing statistics regarding firearms and to show how serious the situation really is. For instance, in 1988, 7 524 firearms were reported lost, whilst only 3 434 were recovered. In 1987, 8 804 were reported lost, of which 3 703 were recovered. In 1988, 2 466 firearms were stolen from houses; 874 firearms were stolen from vehicles; 736 firearms were stolen from business premises or places of work; 463 firearms were robbed from persons; 401 firearms were stolen from forced safes or strong-boxes; 1 735 murders and attempted murders were committed with stolen firearms; 2 089 robberies were committed with stolen firearms; 551 crimes were committed by unlawfully pointing stolen firearms; 57 crimes of intentional damage of private property were committed with stolen firearms; 36 crimes of culpable homicide were committed with stolen firearms; 121 crimes of intentional firing of stolen firearms in built-up areas were committed; 23 crimes of public violence were committed with stolen firearms; 159 crimes of rape were committed with stolen firearms and 2 550 people were charged with crimes in accordance with sections 39(i)(j) and (k) of the Arms and Ammunition Act, Act 75 of 1969. This is because people have been giving the wrong information as far as the processing of their applications is concerned.

As previously stated, 7 524 firearms were reported stolen during 1988, as opposed to 8 804 during 1987. This dramatic decrease can probably be attributed to the fact that applicants for firearm licences now have to sign a certificate informing them that should the weapon be lost due to negligence, a criminal charge will be instituted, followed by a declaration of unfitness to possess a firearm and media coverage on television.

Nevertheless the picture still remains very serious. I would therefore urge the hon the Minister to make provision for the speedy implementation of the amendment to the Arms and Ammunition Act because I believe that should the Arms and Ammunition Act be promulgated, it would ensure that a further decrease in the loss of firearms would occur. This amendment makes provision that people will be forced to store their firearms in safes and also be tested theoretically and practically in the use and safekeeping of their firearms.

In conclusion, I would also like to place on record my sincere thanks to the Commissioner of the SAP and his public relations officer, Capt Du Plessis.

Mrs H SUZMAN:

Mr Chairman, I would firstly like to associate the DP with the words of condolence which have already been uttered concerning the relatives of the 80 men who, according to the annual report, lost their lives in the course of their duty in 1988.

I also want to utter a word of praise—believe it or not—in this Vote to the two officers, the ballistics expert and the warrant-officer who, in my opinion, did a most brilliant piece of detective work in tracking down the reckless people who fired guns into the spectators at the Ellis Park stadium. I think that was a brilliant piece of work and we ought to express that sentiment. [Interjections.]

However, I should now at once revert to type and that, I might say, is a rather daunting experience when one sees the phalanx of blue uniforms in this House today. Nevertheless, the objective of committee of supply is to have redress of grievance before supply of money is voted. That is what I am prepared to do.

The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Assembly):

Order! The hon member for Houghton should not refer to people in the public galleries.

Mrs H SUZMAN:

I withdraw the word “phalanx”, Sir.

I want to ask the hon the Minister to give us some explanations. By the way, he promised in this morning’s Beeld that he was going to give us some information about the exchange of letters between him and Mrs Grosskopf. [Interjections.]

I do not believe he has done that as yet. I must say I do agree with her that until her son has been found guilty, it is not correct for the hon the Minister to levy charges against him as he has done. I hope he will give us some explanation about that, and it will have to be more than just saying that the police has a lot of information and that the man will be charged in court.

I want the hon the Minister to tell us something about the latest report of the Auditor-General which reveals a startling increase of some 85% in compensation payments to victims of police action concerning the public during the 1987-1988 financial year. Nearly R3,5 million was paid out in settling these cases, many via out-of-court settlements, many as a consequence of allegations of torture inside police stations and elsewhere by the police, and some following other illegal actions by the police, for example unlawful arrests for which they paid R0,5 million, as well as R0,5 million for injuries as a result of police action. Just on half the total amount paid in compensation is for injuries arising out of police action during riots. I want to say, as I have said before, that I have no doubt whatsoever that the provision in the emergency regulations indemnifying the police and other officials from anything done “in good faith” in the course of their duties, has greatly increased the reckless and excessive use of powers by some members of the Police Force.

There have been some very telling comments by judges in cases that have come to court, such as that of Judge Shearer in the Scottburgh circuit court where four policemen were fined and received suspended sentences for killing a detainee, Mr Mdumiseni Shangse, by suffocating him with a wet bag placed over his head during interrogation. The judge said that this was evidently standard practice, and that apparently was the reason why the guilty policemen were given such incredibly light sentences by the judge.

Then we have the remarkable comment of a Johannesburg magistrate who said some time in February that every accused for the past eight years had told of torture at the hands of the Brixton Murder and Robbery Squad. In reply to a question I put regarding this comment and asking the hon the Minister what action he had taken, the hon the Minister told me some time last week that the Commissioner of Police had given previous instructions to investigate the matter following on the comment of a judge in a criminal trial in October, 1988.

Now I have to point out that apparently nothing was done for some five months after Judge van der Walt said that the Attorney General of the Witwatersrand should investigate such torture allegations against the Brixton Murder and Robbery Squad. The Attorney General, Mr Klaus von Lieres, said that he had thought that the judge’s comments were “rhetorical”. I find that a most extraordinary remark for the Attorney General to have made.

The hon the Minister also said that because of the successes in combating organised crime in the PWV area by this squad, “there were carefully calculated attempts being made to bring this unit into discredit”. Every law-abiding citizen applauds the efforts of every law-abiding policeman in combating crime. We all know that we owe a debt to law-abiding policemen who combat crime. However, what else but condemnation of the policemen concerned can result from the ugly case of Mrs Maswanganyi who was a traditional healer or a sangoma. Her civil claim for damages against the hon the Minister was settled out of court with a payment of R40 000 plus costs. She can hardly be considered as part of a calculated attempt to bring the unit into discredit.

Mrs Maswanganyi was suspected of robbery. The Brixton squad took her to the station on two occasions. She claims she was assaulted and tortured by the squad by means of beatings, by burning tyres being placed around her neck, by electric shocks being given her and by hooding. The out-of-court settlement certainly appears to bear out that her allegations have got substance.

The hon the Minister and his official spokesman, Brig Mellet, are on record as saying that any form of assault by members of the forces would not be tolerated and, in cases where such actions have occurred, the law took its course and the individual responsible was either prosecuted criminally or departmentally, or both.

Will the hon the Minister please tell us what has happened to the policemen involved in the Maswanganyi case? Have they been dismissed from the force? What penalties, if any, have been imposed on them, because it certainly seems to me that just paying the victims out of taxpayers’ money is hardly just retribution.

What about all the other cases against the police that have been settled out of court? There is, for example, the case at Oudtshoorn reported in The Argus of 25 March 1989 in which damages of R31500 were paid to three Blacks in out-of-court settlements following a shooting incident involving special constables. What has happened to those policemen? Have they been dismissed from the force or have other penalties been placed upon them?

The other issue which I wish to raise with the hon the Minister, concerns the state of emergency, and there is both good news and bad news in what I have to say. The good news is that during the fortnight ended 19 April 1989, for the first time since the state of emergency was imposed on 12 June 1986, the hon the Minister has not tabled the names of any new detainees. That is indeed good news. Brig Mellet has stated that less than 100 people are currently being held in terms of the emergency regulations. However, I must remind hon members in the House that this figure does not include people who have been held for less than 30 days.

Anyway, what I want to ask the hon the Minister is whether one can then hope that the lifting of the state of emergency is at least within sight and that the 33 non-violent organisations presently restricted will be allowed to resume their activities. Can one then also hope that the heavy restrictions, amounting almost to banning— which, by the way, is a penalty that has not been imposed for a number of years—on those detainees who have been released, will also be lifted so that they may lead normal lives again?

In the case of Zwelakhe Sisulu, who was held for over two years, his restrictions are tantamount to imprisonment outside a prison. The restrictions are unbelievably harsh: inter alia he cannot resume his job as a journalist, leave the Johannesburg magisterial district without permission, leave his home between 6 pm and 6 am and he must report to the Orlando police twice daily. He cannot enter educational institutions or participate in activities of 10 major extra-parliamentary organisations.

Can one hope that the rigid censorship of the Press will be removed? In short, can one hope that South Africa will return at last to a semblance of democracy? I say “a semblance” because, even if the state of emergency is lifted, there remains such a barrage of arbitrary powers that are permanently on our statute book that it would be an anachronism to talk of the existence of full civil rights, of habeas corpus, in South Africa.

The most outstanding example of arbitrary powers, of course, is section 29 of the Internal Security Act which is the successor to section 6 of the Terrorism Act of 1967. This, as we know, is the law that gives arbitrary powers of arrest and of indefinite detention in solitary confinement for purposes of interrogation; Thus the bad news, that I was shocked to learn in answer to a question I put to the hon the Minister on 21 February this year, is that 316 persons were being detained under that drastic provision. I hope very much that the hon the Minister will tell us today that the number of persons now being held under section 29 is down to very few, if any at all.

There is one person who is reported to be on a hunger strike, Mr Zelile Zwane, about whom neither the hon the Minister nor Brig Mellet would give any information.

In conclusion, I want to remind the hon the Minister that the same disastrous repercussions on South Africa from abroad will follow a death from hunger strike of a section 29 detainee, as would have followed the death of a detainee held under the emergency regulations—this was fortunately avoided. The hon the Minister should release all persons still being held under section 29 and charge them, if he has evidence against them.

At the time of the hunger strike of the emergency detainees, the hon the Minister stated that he had evidence that there was a campaign to instigate hunger strikes among detainees. Some, he said, were intimidated into going on a hunger strike. He can hardly use this explanation about section 29 detainees, none of whom has access to anybody without permission. They therefore cannot be intimidated by or instigated by anybody to start a hunger strike, because they are in solitary confinement. I trust we shall get answers from the hon the Ministers to what I have raised today.

Mrs S HOOSEN:

Mr Chairman, the youth of any country should be its greatest asset, but figures released by the UN Narcotics Commission reveal that in 1987, of the 16 million Mandrax tablets confiscated worldwide, 14 million were found in South Africa. In addition to this, 25% of the dagga confiscated worldwide came from South Africa. This frightening drug menace, which is directed especially at our youth by the bloodsucking monster bosses of organised crime, are responsible for the complete decline of the morals of our society and its youth.

I want to quote Mr Dilshaad Najmuddin, the Chairman of the International Narcotics Commission, who said:

Let us write this generation off and start with a new generation.

The figures that I have quoted indicate that drug problems in our country are not irrelevant, but are assuming frightening proportions.

The international drug syndicates are taking advantage of our drug explosion, due to two factors, namely the very wide fertile areas the South Africans have to control, and the fact that South Africa is not a member of Interpol. These two factors make South Africa a haven for the drug bosses. Nevertheless the SA Police confiscated dagga to the value of R1,3 billion in 1988. [Interjections.]

*The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Assembly):

Order! No, hon members must lower their voices. The hon member for Tafelberg may proceed.

Mrs S HOOSEN:

It is my submission that if we are to save our country from this drug menace, we have to make the drug business uneconomical. In order to achieve this end, our drug laws have to be amended. Here I just wish to suggest a few points. Firstly, no bail for drug dealers when arrested. Secondly, if found guilty, the sentence should be a fine equal to four times the value of the drugs confiscated and a minimum of ten years hard labour with no remission whatsoever. Thirdly, immovable and movable property from which drugs are confiscated should be seized by the State. Fourthly, if the said properties are hired then the owner should be given one warning, after conviction of the criminal tenant, that the next time the property will be confiscated.

Due to a lack of time, I would like to conclude by thanking Captain P J du Plessis from the Commissioner’s office and Lieutenant Goosen and Warrant Officer Van Rensburg, based at Coles-berg Police Station, for helping me to release a body from the hospital on Christmas Eve.

I had a problem in this regard. We know that among Muslims, any body of the victim of an accident must be buried within sixteen hours of the death occurring. If this does not happen, it will be contrary to the tenets of our religion. I therefore telephoned the hon the Minister’s office. Captain Du Plessis answered. It was on the morning of Christmas, 25 December 1988. He gave me some numbers to contact in Coles-berg. I telephoned these people immediately, and the officials at the hospital immediately started searching for a doctor or magistrate, and took the relevant official to the hospital straight away to release the body.

We are so proud to see our ladies and men in the Police uniform today, and I wonder if we are today seeing the women of the future and of tomorrow. We are so proud to see our women in uniform today, but it is a pity that we only see them on budget days. I would like to ask the hon the Minister if we can always see ladies around, and maybe I can join the Police Force one day! [Interjections.]

Mr J C MATTHEE:

Mr Chairman, I am not going to follow upon the speech of the hon member who has just resumed her seat, but I would like to come back to the hon member for Houghton who has been a member of this Parliament for many, many years. I think it is one of the first times that we have heard a bit of praise from the hon member, and that she has thrown one or two bouquets to the Police.

I have known the hon member for a long time and during the years with the PRP and then the PFP—there are so many p’s and at least they do not have the PDP as I do not know whether the DP are progressive or not—the hon member has shown her party and the public of South Africa that the party she represented was soft on security. I saw conclusive proof here today that the DP is following in the same footsteps.

Mrs H SUZMAN:

[Inaudible.]

Mr J C MATTHEE:

That is the hon member’s opinion.

I would first of all like to thank the hon the Minister on behalf of my colleague the hon member for Umbilo for visiting our constituency in the next few weeks. We certainly are very grateful that he will be able to take the time to come and see some of the serious problems in Durban Point and in Umbilo.

We recently received a petition arranged by the residents of Albert Park who collected more than 1 000 signatures in that area alone, indicating that the people are anxious about the increase in crime in the Albert Park and South Beach areas, particularly amongst the elderly.

I would like to say that muggings, pickpockets and assaults are the most common crimes committed against our elderly folk. Forty per cent of my constituents are people who are 60 years and older, and if we bring that figure down to 50 years, it goes up to 65 per cent. I therefore have the largest senior citizen population in the whole of Natal. If we look at the national figures, by the year 2000 the senior citizen population of South Africa is going to be in the region of 22%.

*This is distressing. The attacks on elderly folk in South Africa occur daily and are apparently on the increase. There are multiple reasons for this phenomenon when crimes against the elderly are generally analysed. Important factors are, amongst others, the conspicuous defencelessness of the elderly that make them attractive targets for the criminal who naturally wishes to achieve his goal with no, or with the minimum of, resistance. Remote living conditions play an important role here. In the second place there is the illusion that the elderly have large and accumulated sums of money and other valuable possessions.

A third factor is the elderly who because they have grown up and grown old in other circumstances than the prevailing ones, are completely negligent in regard to minimum safety measures. In the fourth place, the gullibility of the elderly make them an easy prey for attacks or fraud.

Other factors are personal feuds that lead to revenge on the elderly because of employees being wronged or feeling wronged as a result of real or imagined ill-treatment, or insufficient payment for services rendered.

In the sixth place there is the general inability of the elderly to cope with their own household chores or gardening which necessitate the employing of strangers, which is not recommended at all.

†How do we solve this problem? Firstly I believe we need the full co-operation of all senior citizens in South Africa. I just want to give a few tips.

Do not walk alone. Senior citizens must either walk with a friend or walk in groups. Do not walk in lonely alleyways. Carry the minimum amount of cash. Always have a firm grip on a handbag or parcel. Pay accounts by cheque or credit card.

Then we come to a very important point, namely that the doors of the flats or houses where they live must be locked at all times. We find so often that people are negligent and leave their doors open and therefore invite trouble. Senior citizens should open the door only when they can identify the other person’s voice. They should encourage their neighbours to keep an eye on them. I am sure neighbours would love to do that. If senior citizens only followed a few rules I am sure they would reduce the chance of being attacked.

Secondly, I believe that commerce can play a vital role. Particularly banks and building societies can play a major role in helping their senior citizen customers to work safely with their money. There are one or two banks which in fact advertise on their counters what senior citizens should do.

The third aspect concerns police activity. I immediately want to thank the police in my area in Durban Point for the tremendous hard work they have done in the past year. It is a very difficult area. The crime rate is high and I am sure the hon the Minister is well aware of the problems I have in that area.

I want to thank the Police for holding 513 seminars in 1988 attended by 32 000 senior citizens of all races. They were addressed by senior officers on how to conduct themselves in the interest of safety. I am also told that at present the Police is distributing 150 000 colour brochures to senior citizens free of charge to impress upon them the urgency and the importance of being safety-conscious. These are just two of the many projects which the SAP has launched. I believe this is commendable.

For obvious reasons, the crime rate is higher in densely populated areas than in other areas. For that reason I believe that we need more police protection on the ground. I believe that is where it has to start and end. We have police vehicles which patrol the streets, but criminals are clever. They wait for the van to pass and they come out of their hiding-places and then they strike. Police vehicles are too conspicuous and therefore give the criminal enough time to escape. The time has come where I believe the hon the Minister must now seriously look at introducing foot patrols in densely populated areas. Obviously we cannot afford to have this everywhere, but certainly where there are high-rise buildings, as in Hillbrow and the Point area, I believe that introducing foot patrols is the only way in which we will reduce crime drastically. That does not only go for our senior citizens, but for everybody.

Together with that, I believe we should also have dog patrols. Dog patrols are vital, because a dog handler can deal more effectively with criminals than five policemen. Therefore I believe that serious consideration should be given to having dog patrols in our densely populated areas.

Rev E J MANIKKAM:

Mr Chairman, I want to associate myself with the sympathies expressed to the families of those members of the Force who died in the course of duty.

At the outset I wish to pose a few questions to the hon the Minister of Law and Order in regard to those matters which distress our community.

Before doing so, I would like to point out that since 1948, when the Government planned the townships on an ideological basis—when they separated the communities on a racial basis— the whole idea was to have residential separation based on race. However, it seems that the Government neglected the basic requirements of those areas. Amongst those were the police stations that were so much needed in these areas. I would like the hon the Minister to take note that if he compared 1948 with 1989, he would notice that the areas are sprawling areas, with thousands of people teeming there. It is regrettable that when this ideology, wrong though it was, was planned, no thought was given to the fact that besides—as I mentioned—the other amenities that were needed, crime prevention units had to be provided in these areas. If we look at Mitchells’ Plain, Bonteheuwel and all the other areas in the Cape Peninsula where people are living in their thousands, we find that the situation in these areas leaves much to be desired when it comes to the establishment of police stations. If the hon the Minister wants to erect a police station now, I am given to understand that it will take 15 years to get the project off the ground.

One knows that with constitutional development in any country, law and order is required. Without law and order, chaos is brought to the country. These two go hand-in-hand—one has to have both. I state here that it is high time the Cabinet takes note of the fact that the Department of Law and Order should receive the necessary funding to have sufficient manpower established in the areas of colour. Funds are especially required with regard to related equipment such as motor vehicles, as well as personnel and all that goes with that to ensure the security of our people.

I now turn to crime prevention in our areas. The hon member who spoke before me mentioned Hillbrow and the Point area, but if one takes all the areas of colour, one will note that infested with crime. If hon members read in the Press about the attacks hooligans make on commuters on trains, they will know it is no longer safe to travel by train in the Cape Peninsula. In other regions in our country similar conditions prevail and commuters are molested openly. People are now questioning the political system and activists are using this criminal activity by asking: Where is this reform leading us? We become a joke as far as this is concerned. When we approach the Department of Law and Order for the protection that is needed in this regard, the answer is that they do not have the necessary funds. I once again reiterate that funds are needed and the Cabinet must provide—I use the words “must provide”— the necessary funds if it wants its reform programme to go ahead in this country and to bring stability.

Mr W D MEYER:

From where?

Rev E J MANIKKAM:

The Government introduced this policy. If money was used to get us high and dry, why are the lives of our wives and children not protected?

Why does the hon member ask me that question? I never asked that I be kicked out of a protected area! The hon member should be the last person to ask me that question, because he lives in a safe area. However, I shall give the hon member an answer.

Just because a certain Mr Chris Joubert—or so it is alleged in the Press—had written to the hon the Minister, saying that the crime rate in the Sea Point area was escalating, we now have “kitskon-stabels” patrolling that area in an attempt to reduce crime. Why? Because Sea Point is an elite area! Why do we not have that in our areas?

Mr P C McKENZIE:

What race group lives there?

Rev E J MANIKKAM:

Before the hon member starts interjecting, he should rather get his facts straight. When we speak, we speak from an opposition point of view, because we are the victims of this kind of crime in our areas, too. It is our people who are injured daily. While I make that observation, I am sure that the hon the Minister realises what I am speaking about. I am only asking him to appeal to the Cabinet. In fact, I am addressing myself directly to the Cabinet. They should fund this department, because it is the second most important department after the Department of Constitutional Development and Planning. Since this department is also involved with people in distress, poverty and neglect, I would like to discuss the commendable manner in which the SAP copes with its own intrinsic problems.

The SAP has three funds available that cater for members who need assistance because of circumstances beyond their control. There is also a fund which caters for the support of their own aged. One of the funds created to assist wives and children of deceased members is the Widow and Orphan Fund. This fund originated in 1913 when the various police forces were consolidated. Because of the growing demands made on the Police, a cameraderie developed amongst them which is without equal in the private sector. This was the incentive which led to the founding of the fund on 23 July 1920.

The purpose of this fund is to assist wives, children, stepchildren and adopted children of deceased members. Membership is voluntary and open to all members. It is most remarkable to note that 100% of the members of the Force belong to this fund and pay a voluntary amount each month. It is also remarkable to see the spontaneous donations made to the fund by private individuals and organisations and businessmen. It can only be assumed that it stems from the excellent partnership that exists between members of the Police Force and the public.

In 1963 it became obvious that there was a great need for a fund that could assist members in times of dire need or emergencies. Such a fund was founded in 1963 and it is known as the South African Police Assistance Fund. This fund is available to all races, as well as retired members of the Force and their dependants. It also assists members or their dependants who are chosen to represent the Force or the Republic in amateur sport, locally or abroad, as well as supplying sport facilities at police complexes. Voluntary contributions are made to the fund. This is the only income the fund has except for interest on investments.

Another fund which the Police can be very proud of is the Police Fund for the Aged. The object of this fund is to establish retirement homes for the aged. Here I want to stress that this should and must be expanded to include all race groups in the Police Force. In 1986 the constitution was amended to include dependents of members who cannot support themselves financially. The fund is to the benefit of all members and, we are glad to announce, irrespective of race. [Time expired.]

Mr R W HARDINGHAM:

Mr Chairman, at the outset I wish to associate myself with the expressions of sympathy to the relatives of those members of the SAP who have lost their lives in the course of their duty during the past year. I also wish to convey good wishes and congratulation on a hard job well done to Gen De Witt who may be retiring from the service of the Police.

While appreciating the role of the women in the Police Force and the evidence displayed today in recognising this fact I would warn, in lighter vein, that the male component of the SAP should be careful not to entirely abandon the chauvinistic character that the Police Force has enjoyed for so many years.

I am pleased to able to participate in this debate today in that it affords me an opportunity to pay respects to the various segments of the SAP. It also affords me an opportunity to acknowledge the role that the SAP has played in preserving law and order in this country under conditions that at times are extremely difficult.

I also wish to pay tribute to those members of the Force who have rendered such excellent service in South West Africa over the years. I wish to bring to the attention of the hon the Minister that all Natalians, irrespective of colour and race, are deeply concerned at the incidence of Black-on-Black violence that has occurred in areas situated in and around Pietermaritzburg during the past three years. I also want to recognise at this time the diligence of Brig Kotzé who has been in charge in that area, and thank him for having performed his duties so responsibly.

While many reasons have been advanced for this sad state of affairs I would appeal to the hon the Minister and the Government to investigate more fully the causes for the unrest. Unless these are identified specifically a real danger exists that the present violence will continue. I am not unmindful too of the difficulties that the SAP have been experiencing in maintaining law and order in this region which spreads far into many rural areas. I am satisfied that the SAP have done all they can to come to grips with the problem. However, I repeat that the situation will not return to normal until the underlying causes for the unrest have been clearly established.

It is for this reason that I was pleased to learn that the hon the Minister had recently held discussions with Dr Buthelezi, the Chief Minister of KwaZulu, and I trust that the hon the Minister will be able to give this Committee an indication as to what progress was made during those deliberations.

I want to turn my attention to the favourite sport of certain liberals in this country who find that sniping at the Police is a pleasant pastime. These are the same do-gooders who, for publicity reasons, repeatedly call for the removal of the state of emergency, for the military presence in the townships to be removed and for a reduction of the Police presence in many areas. However, I want to know on whose behalf they are speaking. Such representations reveal a naivety bordering on a lack of compassion and recklessness.

My advice to them is not only to speak to the activists, but also to listen to what the law-abiding citizens in those townships in particular have to say. These are the people—thankfully they are the large majority—that are content to lead a normal family life and who are appreciative of the role that the security forces are playing in preserving law and order in the townships. One only has to question any of these law-abiding citizens to be told clearly that they do not wish the state of emergency to be removed.

Allow me to quote from an independent survey relative to the matter, which was commissioned by the Indaba. I quote from the report:

Attitudes to the presence of the police and army in the townships were found to be favourable. The statements gauging opinion in this regard and their respective responses were:
“The army helps to make the township safe for residents”—agree 64%, disagree 13%, don’t know 23%.

[Time expired.]

*Mr P A S MOPP:

Mr Chairman, there are a few matters I should like to discuss with the hon the Minister and the hon the Deputy Minister. I officially want to place it on record that we held discussions in East London, and that a promise was made to us that we would get a police station at Buffalo Flats by 1991. I hope the hon the Minister will confirm that this will, in fact, be the case. At the same time I also want us to build a police station at Breidbach. We informed the hon the Minister that land was available, and we want a police station there too.

That was the good news, but here is the bad news. When is the hon the Minister going to pay the policemen more money? There are a considerable number of them who, after all the deductions, take home R204. There is a saying: “If one pays peanuts, one will get monkeys to work for you.” [Interjections.] This also exposes those who take home so little money to the temptation of becoming part of the criminal element out there. This has happened and it is still happening. I hope we have learnt a lesson from the Capt Le Grange and Van der Merwe episode in which people who were involved in drug smuggling were shot. Money was the cause of this.

There are many honest people who struggle to keep their heads above water, and who can no longer do so. Every day the prices of every commodity increase, including food and petrol, but the men’s salaries do not increase. There are many of them who have asked me please to talk about the small amount of money they take home. Their wives are obliged to go out to work, because without their contributions they can no longer keep their heads above water. I am now telling the hon the Minister that the burden rests on his shoulders. The men want more money. Some are too reticent to say this to the hon the Minister’s face, but they are not too reticent to say it to us. Therefore I am now telling the hon the Minister quite frankly that the men want more money, and that he must look into this matter. [Interjections.]

The other matter I want to go into is this: Why is the murder and robbery unit in East London used only for crimes such as the murder of Whites, Indians and Coloureds. Why are they not used to investigate the murder of Black people as well? Why is there this apartheid?

Let us take a place such as Mitchells Plain. A total of 230 000 people live there, and there are only two police vehicles. [Interjections.] No wonder people no longer have any respect for the police, because if one telephones them and says one needs them urgently, they only arrive the day after tomorrow to investigate the case. People have absolutely no respect for the police, because when there is an emergency they have to wait for the policemen. When a fire breaks out, however, the entire unrest unit arrives. Why is it that certain things our people do attract the attention of the entire unrest unit, while nothing is done about their other problems?

The solution is quite simply that there cannot only be one police station. Satellite stations should be opened throughout a residential area, and in our residential area too. I understand the House of Representatives wants the only satellite station in Mitchells Plain back again, because there is a great shortage of housing. On the one hand the people are crying out for housing, and on the other there is not enough space or enough funds.

This situation needs urgent attention. The ANC and the SA Communist Party are regarded as the enemies here. However, let us come to grips with reality. Who is the real enemy of South Africa? It is the policy of the hon the Minister’s party. It is the policy of the NP which does not want to give the vote to the vast majority of people. It is the policy of the NP which puts the poor policemen in the vanguard of the fray.

It is the NP’s policy that must change. If hon NP members remember the history of the ANC— and they know it well—they know that these people pleaded for negotiation from the date the organisation was founded up to the 1960s. They were prepared to negotiate, but the NP was not prepared to do so. That is why they resorted to violence.

The Government is prepared to hold discussions with the communists and to negotiate with the Cubans. It is even prepared to go to Cuba to engage in a round-table conference. For the past 48 years we have been hearing about the Red Peril and the Black Peril. At that stage there was a communist behind every bush and under every bed.

Today we hold discussions with the communists. One of my friends even bought a Russian alarm clock in town, but it ticked so loudly that he threw it away.

We are trading, negotiating and holding discussions with the Russians, but when are those hon members going to talk to our own citizens? Those who resorted to violence, had reason to do so. It is no use the NP saying they are not going to talk to these people. They have to talk to these people, because we want peace in this country. We do not want the men in blue placed in constant danger. One can talk until one is blue in the face, but one cannot escape the facts. There must be negotiation with these very people. After all, the war was over long ago. Why must we wage war against our own citizens when those people only wish to be treated like human beings and fellow-citizens? That is the question.

The NP must come to its senses and realise that it must talk to the ANC. It must distinguish between the ANC and the SACP, because our party is also opposed to the communists. However, we are not opposed to the ANC, but we are opposed to their methods. The NP must make that distinction and, not always simply lump the two groups together, because there are many people who belong to the ANC who are not communists. As long as the NP judges everyone by the same yardstick, it will not be able to solve the problem. The ANC must be separated from the communists, so that the latter are in one camp. We are also opposed to them. However, there must be discussions with members of the ANC, so that there can be peace in this country.

The bombs that are planted blow up innocent people, and it is high time we talked to the ANC and said from this podium that we are opposed to the violence they perpetrate in this country. It is unnecessary. The ANC must be asked whether they would be prepared to come to the negotiating table if the NP were to tell the ANC that it was prepared to negotiate. This is the problem the hon the Minister, as political head of the Police, must solve.

*Mr C J W BADENHORST:

Where have you been the whole time?

*Mr P A S MOPP:

That hon member also comes from the East London area. [Interjections.] I am not mistaken. The hon members of that party must wake up and implement their policy, because the policy they are implementing in this country is not going to bring the necessary peace. The lives of policemen are being placed in danger, not the lives of hon members. Hon members sit here in Parliament and have a great deal to say, but they do not go out there and fight. It is the police who have to fight. If there are terrorists, it is the Police who have to shoot them and it is their lives that are endangered.

Those hon members are here to bring peace. They must therefore change their policy. They must tell those people, from this podium, that they are prepared to negotiate, just as we, from this podium, tell the ANC that it must denounce violence and come to the negotiating table, because there is a place for everyone in South Africa.

*Mr J VAN ECK:

Mr Chairman, before I come to the subject which I particularly wish to discuss today I would like to pay tribute—and hon members should listen carefully—to those large numbers of policemen and policewomen—there are especially women here today—who fulfil their task as law enforcers so successfully and conscientiously. I wish to thank them for combating crime in Claremont and elsewhere and for their willingness to make our suburbs as safe as possible.

*An HON MEMBER:

You are wooing the DP.

*Mr J VAN ECK:

No, I am coming to the rest of my speech. I shall not disappoint the hon member.

I particularly wish to mention Brig Roy During, Divisional Commissioner for the Western Cape, whom I have come to know well and I wish to thank him and his team of district commanders and others for the exceptional way in which they were prepared to take action whenever it had been necessary for the Police to take action. Even as far as the hon the Minister is concerned I wish to reiterate what I have said earlier: I believe he is sincere when he says that he will not allow any member of the Force to be guilty of misconduct. Whenever I brought such matters to his attention, he reacted speedily. I state that as a fact and I am not ashamed of it.

My problem with the Police Force is not the way in which it is combating crime, but the way in which it is involved in politics. I agree with the hon member for Border: That is exactly the problem.

†Today I want to raise the whole issue of the Witdoek vigilantes and the way in which the State and significant sectors within the Police either support and/or condone the large scale violence and intimidation that is being perpetrated by these Witdoek vigilantes on their political opponents.

I raise this issue today because the hon the Minister and his Government have repeatedly told us that they will not tolerate violence by any group, whether it be the ANC or the AWB, and that they will not talk to or negotiate with people such as the ANC who perpetrate violence. I believe there is a lot of hypocrisy contained in this sentiment and I shall raise a few points to make that clear.

Firstly, while the Police have rooted out, with indiscriminate violence and repression, the so-called people’s courts and street committees of the UDF and their comrades, there is ample evidence that similar kangaroo courts being used by Witdoek vigilantes are being condoned and/or ignored or even tolerated.

Secondly, in 1985 and 1986, we in the Cape had to witness how heavily-armed Witdoek vigilantes from Old Crossroads and from Site C …

*The MINISTER OF LAW AND ORDER:

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: A civil court case about the events concerning the Witdoek vigilantes in 1985-86 is currently in progress in the Cape Supreme Court. I therefore suggest that the matter is sub judice.

*The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Assembly):

Order! It is, of course, difficult for the Chair to determine exactly what is sub judice and what is not, but I want to caution the hon member for Claremont to rather avoid a subject which might be sub judice. The hon member may proceed.

Mr J VAN ECK:

Mr Chairman, I have only one thing to say on that point; the hon the Minister does not have to be worried. I am not going to go into the court case. However, in those two years we saw Witdoeke from Old Crossroads and Khayelitsha being allowed and even assisted by members of the Police to attack the Crossroads satellite squatter camps and KTC and to destroy those settlements. I personally saw this happening with my own eyes.

*The MINISTER OF LAW AND ORDER:

That is exactly what the court case is about!

*The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Assembly):

Order! I must again appeal to the hon member for Claremont. I accept the hon the Minister’s statement that a court case is in progress about this. It is therefore sub judice and the hon member should avoid this subject.

Mr J VAN ECK:

Mr Chairman, I might mention that it is only the KTC case that is sub judice— not the attacks on the satellite camps of Crossroads. I will therefore limit myself to Crossroads, where we saw—I saw this personally—Witdoeke, fully armed, standing with the Police next to shacks that were burning. No attempt was being made to stop that.

Since those days the State and the Police have had a continuous involvement with those Witdoek leaders, Mr Nxobongwana in Crossroads, and now Mr Hoza in Khayelitsha. There is no doubt that the State has sided with them. They have continuous raids on other areas—so-called anti-crime raids, during which any kind of weapon is confiscated. While the so-called Comrades would not dare to be seen with any weapons, even if these were merely for selfprotection, Witdoek vigilantes openly and blatantly show off and use their dangerous arsenal of pangas, axes and kieries.

I accuse the SAP—those elements that are allowing this—of not acting against weaponcarrying vigilante Witdoeke, while the full might of the State is regularly used against, for example, Comrades. I want to make this point because when the hon the Minister went to Crossroads recently, he actually identified himself with vigilante Witdoeke carrying pangas, axes and so on. This was a guard of honour for the South African Minister of Law and Order— people armed to the teeth with arms that are being used to kill people!

The people in the townships can draw only one conclusion, namely that if one side arms itself that is in order, but it is not in order if the other side does. I ask that this be stopped.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF LAW AND ORDER:

What about that guy that carried a limpet mine?

Mr J VAN ECK:

Sir, any violence should be stopped. Any person using arms like this should be prevented from doing so, because this is not a show-off; those arms are used on a very regular basis, not only in Cape Town but also in Natal and many other places.

*Mr H A SMIT:

You will only see it if it suits you.

*Mr J VAN ECK:

Sir, it always suits me to criticize violence. [Interjections.] If a man had come to me in 1985 and said to me, “Mr Van Eck, please give us bullets; they are going to shoot and kill us” then I would have said, “I do not have bullets and even if I had, I would not have given them to you.” The Government says it is opposed to violence, but then it should consistently reject all violence and take equal steps against them and against the Comrades. It is of no consequence who actually brings the violence into our townships; I do not care who it is. They must be brought to heel. The hon the Minister should not take sides by allowing a guard of honour by people with clubs, pangas and so forth.

†When Mr Hoza, a Khayelitsha Witdoek leader was elected mayor, the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning and the Government went there to show solidarity with another Witdoek vigilante lader. A few weeks ago I raised the fact in Parliament that Mr Hoza’s bully-boys were waging terror campaigns against their opponents in Khayelitsha. I have here in my possession a number of affidavits from Khayelitsha residents who referred to regular beatings, assaults, shootings and kangaroo courts actively organised and attended by this so-called mayor Mr Mali Hoza.

Hon members can make up their own minds— and if I have time I will quote from these affidavits—whether law and order instead of jungle law is actually being maintained in Khayelitsha. If the hon the Minister can prove me wrong then I will accept that it is wrong. However, I have these affidavits here and that is what they show. The law of the jungle is actively allowed in Khayelitsha.

What I will quote is not completely new, but if the hon the Minister and his police continue turning a blind eye to what is happening in Khayelitsha, they must not be surprised if people start accusing them of condoning Witdoek vigilante violence. If this accusation is true, if the people cannot expect the Police to step in and end the violence, more and more people who are being subjected to this Witdoek violence are going to feel that they will have to take the law into their own hands to ensure their safety and that of their families.

I will not have time to quote from Hansard, but they are available. However, what I do want to quote is a reference to a quotation from the information book at the Khayelitsha police station in one of these affidavits, from which I read the following extract:

Samewerking. SAP. Tuiswag. Terrein C. Hierdie mense …

*Those are the Witdoeke—

… lewer ’n geweldige groot hulp aan die SAP, praat en gesels met mnr Hoza of wie ook al daar in beheer is. Ek …

That is the author of this police document—

… het die versekering van die komitee …

That is Mr Hoza’s committee—

… dat hulle nie mense sal aanrand nie of sal intimideer nie. As hulle nie die huishoudelike moeilikheid self kan oplos nie, sal hulle die saak na die SAP verwys. Selfs kriminele sake word eers deur hulle bespreek waarna die beskuldigdes aan ons oorhandig word. Dus kry ons baie hulp van die mense.

[Time expired.]

Mr M BANDULALLA:

Mr Chairman, it is human nature that the good is never spoken about, but if one bad thing happens then the whole world gets to know about it. What we have just heard from the hon member for Claremont was just one side of what he saw and he never saw the better side of it. That also surprises most of us here. It is also important to assess the good side of an issue.

In the execution of a noble duty for the sake of the sake of the country and the community, we have lost some dedicated policemen who will be very difficult to replace. I do hope that they are not forgotten, that their names are on record and they will appear on the Scroll of Honour.

No country in the world would like to have a weak and undisciplined police force. This may be wishful thinking in many countries but we South Africans can be justly proud that our Police Force compares with the best in the world, and more so if one takes into account the very difficult circumstances in which they operate. Not many people realise that apart from their normal task as law enforcers a policeman is sometimes requested to assist his community in tasks of a completely different nature.

A very fine example of this is the role played by the SAP during the floods of 1988. I hope my figure is correct when I say that 1 008 people were saved by the quick action of the SAP and 367 bodies were recovered. I am sure that they undertook this task after hours and that many more such hours were spent in the execution of this noble duty.

I would like to know if it is fair of the hon the Minister to overburden his Police Force, over and above their normal duties of maintaining law and order, with attending to the other requirements of the community. I do not think it is an easy task if one considers that in South Africa we have a Police Force of 66 000 which is looking after 30 million people. I don’t think we are doing justice to them and their families if we compare the ratio of police to the population of other Western countries. I will give some figures for the information of this House. We in South Africa at present have 2,2 police for every 1 000 people, compared with England where the ratio is 3,8 for every 1 000. Israel has a ratio of 3,6 per 1 000, whilst in the United States the figure is 4,2 and in West Germany 2,8. I do not think it can be justified, as I have just pointed out, that over and above their normal duties our police are also called on to do extra duties which take them away from their families and homes for many hours. The ratios which I have just mentioned lead me to believe that we are ten years behind the times.

May I ask the hon the Minister: In these troubled times, are we being fair to the country as a whole? It is quite clear that the SAP should increase its membership considerably. This should be treated as a matter of serious concern. We are presently living in a time of violence, crime and unrest, which puts the Police under more and more pressure. To cope with the situation and maintain law and order, police presence is required in almost every sphere of South African society. They have to look after the morality of the country, they have to fight and detect crime, they have to combat violence and unrest and they have to maintain law and order in order to secure a peaceful existence for us. It is not necessary for me to elaborate any further to prove the absolute necessity of having a well-equipped Police Force with an adequate membership. For this reason I urge the Government to make available sufficient funds as a matter of urgency to expand and equip the SAP so that it can execute its duties effectively in the interest of all people in South Africa.

I know that it is a costly business and I am also aware that it costs the State approximately R17 000 to train one policeman. I suppose it will be even more this year. The figure I quoted is the one for last year. With an increase in the price of commodities and foodstuffs, I am sure it will be more. However, when one takes into account what it costs the taxpayer to train one policeman, I believe it is a negligible amount. If my information is correct, it costs the taxpayer less than 20 cents per year, which is approximately two cents per month, to maintain a policeman during training. If this is what it costs the taxpayer, there is vast room for improvement in order to have an effective Police Force in South Africa.

If this ideal is accomplished, it will automatically mean a visible police presence in spheres of police activity. It would mean expansion in the different branches, like the South African Narcotics Bureau and the criminal investigation department, to provide a more effective service, especially in the metropolitan areas like Durban and other densely populated areas which have become a matter for concern.

We are looking at the various facets of crime. We are looking at political crime and day-to-day crime, which is a matter of serious concern particularly certain areas like Durban and Hillbrow where it is alarming.

By enlarging the Police Force we will also be providing safety to the elderly. The most important fact, I believe, in enlarging the Police Force will be the reinstatement of the “bobby on the beat”, which was the order of the day many years ago. This played a very important role in deterring crime.

To have a well-oiled and effective Police Force it is imperative that the members of the Force must be happy and satisfied. I do not say they are not, but I think a lot more can be done to improve their quality of life. Although I believe that housing has improved sufficiently, I feel there is still room for further improvement where single members, and especially single female members, are concerned. Their difficulties are in the rural areas, where there are not sufficient single quarters for females. As far as salaries are concerned there has been a general 15% increase, but regarding the task facing a policeman in the wider context, and considering the policing of our complex society and the dangers they are faced with almost every day, I am of the view that their salaries and other benefits must be looked at more closely.

In conclusion, and at the end of this term of our Parliament, I would like to place on record our thanks and appreciation to all those members of the Police Force who saw to our safety at Pelikan Park and also the policemen here in Parliament who looked after our well-being and safety during the five years of our term of office.

Dr B L GELDENHUYS:

Mr chairman, the previous speaker made a valuable contribution and I especially want to underline his introductory remarks as far as the hon member for Claremont is concerned.

*The hon member for Claremont and I have come a fairly long way together, since we were at Stellenbosch together. At no time during his student days did I ever associate the hon member for Claremont with the extreme left-wing radicalism which was given free rein in South African universities in the sixties. It was in the sixties that left-wing radical students at the University of Cape Town planned to poison water storage dams here in the Western Cape, but I never associated the hon member for Claremont with those people. Somewhere along the line something happened to the hon member for Claremont, and I hope that he will come to his senses again some time in the future.

I want to say only two things about the hon member’s contribution here this afternoon. He referred to one matter which in the opinion of the hon the Minister was sub judice and I do not want to elaborate on that. This afternoon I merely want to say that he must concede that the Witdoeke as such saw the light, as a result of an attempt by people in the Black residential areas to defend themselves against violence by the Comrades. This is a fact. He said the Witdoeke were enforcing “jungle law”, but he said nothing about “people’s courts”—“people’s courts” which tried people who were suspected of being informants. The outcome of those “people’s courts” was the well-known “necklacing”. We are still waiting for the hon member for Claremont to express himself unequivocally opposed to that state of affairs too.

I also want to make mention in passing of a remark made by the hon member for Border. He appealed to us that it was high time we talked to the ANC and that we separated the ANC from the SACP. Yes, we know that not all supporters of the ANC are members of the SACP. However, it is not our responsibility to draw this distinction. For how long has there not been a call on the ANC from Government circles to draw this distinction themselves? As long as prominent and recognised members of the SACP form a large majority in the ANC’s executive authority, the hon member must not ask us to draw this distinction. I think that the standpoint in respect of this discussion is quite clear. The Government has addressed an open invitation to everyone who renounces violence to participate in this discussion which must lead to a new constitution for South Africa.

A virtually impossible task rests on the shoulders of the limited manpower of the SAP. Demands being made on the Force are increasing daily. This afternoon we heard about this in virtually every speech. In an attempt to contribute towards lightening this workload of the Police to some extent, I want to ask that we reconsider a specific task which is performed by the Police at the moment. Let me say at once that this task is performed very effectively by the Police. The counter-insurgency war is the responsibility of the SAP inside the country. I want to advocate that this task should gradually become the responsibility of the Defence Force. I know this is a controversial appeal, because thus far the Police have performed the counter-insurgency task brilliantly. As a matter of fact, the SAP played a major part in ensuring that an immediate objective of the ANC, to topple the Government before Christmas 1986, failed.

The men who have thus far waged this counterinsurgency battle with so much success, deserve the thanks of every South African. I am also aware that in terms of the legal philosophy in the RSA, the combating of insurgency or terrorism is actually a court-orientated process. In other words, actions which are termed as rioting, are also termed as an offence. In more general terms, according to the South African legal philosophy it is the Defence Force’s primary task to protect the country against an attack from outside, whereas it is the primary task of the Police to protect the country against attacks from inside the country.

I am not denying what is fundamental to this legal philosophy. I am not denying that an act of terrorism is an offence. I am also the last person who would argue that a terrorist should be called a freedom fighter, but I nevertheless want to motivate my appeal. There is no difference between the insurgency of Swapo and that of the ANC. The objective of both is to topple a government. Thus far their strategy has been the same. Bases are established in neighbouring states from where acts of terrorism are launched against targets with the objective of toppling a specific state or government.

As regards the ANC, a very important shift in strategy has taken place, however. Thanks to military successes and treaties entered into by this Government, the chances of gaining entry to neighbouring states to set up ANC bases are virtually nil. There is therefore only one alternative left and that is to use residential areas or “townships” as bases from which terrorist at tacks can be launched with the objective of toppling the State.

In a very important and enlightening book, Apartheid’s Rebels: Inside South Africa’s Hidden War, the author, S Davis, says the following, and I am quoting:

The war now had to take root at home, even if far from centres of command, and the townships had to be prepared to nourish it.

In other words, what one is dealing with here, is the substitution for a bush war of a concrete war. Because of this change in strategy it goes without saying that this is placing a tremendous burden on the already overloaded SAP.

In spite of the change in strategy the objective remains the same, namely to topple the Government. The criterion for using the Defence Force is therefore not whether one is dealing with an attack from outside, but whether one is dealing with a calculated attack to topple a Government. In my opinion this is what we are dealing with, particularly when we take this change in strategy into consideration.

I found it astounding that in spite of the fact that they warded off a counter-revolutionary attack here on the ground in 1986, the Police still succeeded in maintaining law and order. This is a remarkable achievement. Given the changed strategy this onslaught may increase in intensity in future, and that is why I am asking the hon the Minister to consider gradually transferring this responsibility to the Defence Force.

I want to make a final remark which has to do with an entire different matter. I appreciate the fact that child molestation units have been established, and I want to ask that attention also be given to the West Rand in this regard. In my opinion there is a need for such a specific unit. I would appreciate it if this received favourable consideration.

*Mr W J MEYER:

Mr Chairman, in the short time at my disposal I want to start by expressing my sympathy on behalf of my constituency to the next-of-kin of the members of the SAP who were injured or lost their lives in the performance of their duties.

Allow me, on behalf of all hon members in the House of Representatives and all inhabitants of the RSA, to thank the hon the Minister, the Commissioner of Police and every member of the SAP for the unselfish service they render. In particular I want to thank the hon the Minister who is always prepared to listen to our problems and see to them. However, when we voice criticism in certain cases during the discussion of the Vote, he must not see this as negative behaviour. He must always realise that we represent constituencies, and that the voters do not want puppets as representatives, but people who can say what they want to say. He must remember that we are facing an election, and that we cannot make fools of ourselves by not putting the case of the voters. [Interjections.]

The Police are faced with maintaining law and order very day. For that reason we want to thank these men and women for their actions. I want to tell the hon the Minister at once that there are a few matters causing us concern. I am asking him to give attention to the way in which people are transferred from one police station to another. I have, for example, a letter in my possession written by a constable who was transferred from Robertson to Nigel on the East Rand. He was taken from his station in Robertson without being asked whether he was prepared to go and without accommodation being arranged for him at the other end, and he is now living in a corrugated iron shack in Nigel. No provision was made for accommodation for him. In my opinion it makes the young people who join the Police unhappy when they hear about these things. I am asking that urgent attention be given to the general accommodation position in the RSA.

I wonder whether the time has not come for protection services as a whole—I am referring to the SADF, the Police and the Prisons Services— to be placed under one umbrella and controlled by one Minister. I would like the Cabinet to investigate this possibility. I have been a member of the protection services committee for some time now, and because we deal with this every day, I know what I am talking about. I will probably say more about this in the discussion of the Vote of the hon the Minister of Justice. Because crime knows no colour, language or ethnic boundaries, the members of all the race groups should work side by side, and they should receive equal remuneration, allowances, recreational and other facilities.

What worries me a little is that the members of the guard unit get a notch or two more than the ordinary policeman. In the rural areas, where we have guards at our homes, that policeman only gets his ordinary salary. There is no increase in his salary, although he is doing guard duty. I want to ask the hon the Minister to look into this matter.

I also want to ask that the entire matter of guard duty for Coloured MPs be looked into. It would seem to me as if only Coloured policemen do guard duty, and as far as I am concerned this is not right. I feel a policeman is a policeman, and he must do the duty expected of him. Colour must never be a consideration in the Police.

I said a while ago that remuneration, allowances and recreational and other facilities must be equal. Inequality in basic privileges and work delineation promotes racism. This leads to dissatisfaction, which in turn contributes to a certain extent towards crime getting the upper hand. That is why every right-minded and crime-conscious South African wants to thank the department today for the fact that certain dis-criminatory practices have already disappeared, and are continuing to disappear.

If one looks at the news in the daily newspapers and on television, and one sees how many attacks on elderly persons, robberies, rapes and murders are taking place, it is unbelievable that there are still people in this country who are in favour of differentiating according to skin colour and apartheid in the SA Police. It is disgraceful that politicians and others who say that every race group must serve its own people, care so little about the lives of other people. I want to ask the hon the Minister, in the interests of the security of people, to continue with reform in the SA Police and speed up the process. The present generation of policemen from our community will no longer tolerate racial discrimination, and this can only cause dissatisfaction.

Something every South African can be grateful for is that politics does not play a role in the ranks of our people in the SA Police. If premises are broken into in the night, if there is a motor car accident, if a murder or some other crime is committed, a policeman will not first ask whether the person involved supports the CP, AWB, UDF, LP, NP or whatever. He will take action, even if he is injured or loses his own life in the process.

I do not have time to mention examples today, but police officers across the colour bar have frequently saved lives, particularly those of their own colleagues. I am reminded of an incident in the Strand in the seventies. A so-called Coloured sergeant came upon a White woman in a dry cleaners who had been strangled with a tie. He applied mouth-to-mouth resuscitation and called an ambulance. This was widely reported in the newspapers. I am also thinking of the flood-ravaged areas. There too our people did not consider a person’s colour, but protected others because they felt this was the right thing to do.

I wonder what would have happened if a police officer from my community had stumbled on the rape and murder of the White girls in Grabouw, in which a certain Van der Merwe was involved. Right-wing politicians do not want police officers of colour to arrest White persons. Fortunately our people do not pay attention to such pettiness, and the protection of human lives and property comes first.

I therefore feel it is a great pity that there are still police officers who treat our people rudely when they go to a police station. There is frequently a lack of friendliness, tolerance and helpfulness. This specifically happens when one is the “wrong” colour. We are aware of the efforts by the hon the Minister to improve the image of the Police Force, but I can assure him that complaints in this regard are still legion.

It is well known that there are many far-right-wing people in the Police. We want to appeal to them not to allow their petty political convictions to play a role in their work. It must not be apparent to the community or their colleagues, because this can only be prejudicial. They will also be totally out of step with the political direction in which the rest of South Africa is moving.

I also want to touch on another matter here, namely safety on the trains and the safety of the people who must work on the trains and at the stations. Hon members know that while the Railways Police performed these duties, the commuting public felt relatively secure. That feeling no longer exists. Nowadays people are very afraid to travel by train, because the first-class section is no longer safe and the third-class section is even worse. I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to see to it that many more policemen are present on the trains. Our people depend on rail transport to earn their daily bread. It would be a good thing if there were four or five policemen on virtually every train. The hon the Minister will tell me he does not have the available manpower, but I want to tell him that there are many of our people who would very much like to join the Police. The Government will simply have to make more money available so that these services can be rendered.

In conclusion I want to issue this warning: Hon members must remember that human lives cannot be revoked like apartheid notice boards and discriminatory legislation. When one discovers that one’s policy is not working, one must do something about it. For that reason I am appealing to the hon the Minister, the politicians and every hon member of the SAP this afternoon: Let us break down the wall of partition and, irrespective of skin colour, in the interests of our elderly people, women and children, join hands and fight the evil of crime together.

*Mr C L FISMER:

Mr Chairman, it is a great privilege to follow the hon member for Robertson. He is an hon member of this Parliament for whom I have very great respect. He said we must appreciate that he also has voters to talk for. It is my wish that the voters of his constituency in Robertson will again put their confidence in him in the next election, because he is a person who enriches this institution with his presence. [Interjections.]

Before I concentrate on the thoughts I want to express today, I should like to take this opportunity to say a few words about the celebration of the 75th anniversary of the Police, which took place during the past financial year. The Police celebrated this event in such a way that I am sure no one could say he was unaware of the 75th anniversary of the Police. This in itself indicates the success of the celebrations, but I would very much like to congratulate them on the quality of the celebrations.

I personally witnessed the pageant at Loftus Versveld in Pretoria, the parade through the streets of Pretoria, the concert at the State theatre, the trooping of the colours at the Police College and the official dinner in Pretoria’s city hall. There were also several other functions throughout the country. With regard to all the functions one can say that standards were set which may be equalled in future, but which it will be difficult to surpass. The image which the Police projected throughout showed what they are really like: They are extremely professional and effective; high standards of initiative and performance are maintained; they take an infectious pride in who and what they are; they have a versatility in every sphere of life, and their dedication to their task in particular is an example to everyone.

The 75th anniversary of the Police was not only a celebration. It was a show of strength which inspired and motivated persons not linked to the Force in any way for the task lying ahead for them. It is on this future task I want to dwell in order to emphasise another sphere of achievement of the SAP.

Some time ago the need was identified for the Police to maintain a larger physical presence in order to ensure effective law and order. More must be done to establish foot-patrols in the Black residential areas in particular. In addition the guarding of schools and other Government buildings in those areas has become an important priority. The established manpower of fully trained policemen was insufficient for the scope of this task. In July 1986 the Government consequently approved the training of Black special constables to perform this task. The way in which the Police tackled and implemented this task became another success story in the colourful history of the SAP.

Up to the end of February 1989 the Police trained a total of 5 167 Black special constables, who now serve in various Police divisions. A further 800 started training in April 1989. The mere presence and close links of the special constables with the community are accepted, and have made law-abiding citizens feel secure. Their success is apparent from the fact that the following arrests were made by special constables in 1988 alone: For serious crimes, 2 231 arrests; for minor crimes, 10 132 arrests. To be more specific the following arrests, inter alia, were made by special constables—I am only giving the 1988 figures as an example: Murder, 145 arrests; possession of unlicensed firearms, 46 arrests; possession of dagga, 757 arrests; dealing in dagga, 183 arrests; attempted murder, 66 arrests; robbery, 26 arrests; rape, 34 arrests; dealing in and possession of Mandrax, 17 arrests.

If there had not been special constables these criminals would probably still have been at large. When special constables are used in riot-torn areas, their presence has a stabilising effect, with a resultant decrease in unrest-related incidents. The services of special constables are very successfully used in the tracing of stolen property and vehicles and the arresting of armed robbers and burglars. What is important is that this is an indication that where they are used, the incidence of crime decreases.

Several operations have been launched to enhance the image of the SA Police, and specifically the image of special constables. The operations consisted of an initial personal discussion between individuals and special constables on foot in Black residential areas. In the discussion the inhabitants were informed of the purpose of their presence in the Black residential areas. After these operations requests were made to the State by the Black inhabitants for the number of special constables in their residential areas to be increased. This proves that the special constables are accepted by these Black communities.

Special constables are day labourers, and their conditions of employment specify that they are only paid for those days on which they actually perform a service. No problems are being experienced in using them at full strength on a daily basis. As day labourers their conditions of employment stipulated that misconduct will lead to summary dismissal. Initially serious problems were experienced with misconduct, particularly the illegal use of firearms. However, the policy in respect of misconduct was strictly applied, and these transgressors were summarily dismissed and prosecuted. As a result there was a major change in attitude among special constables, and in general their behaviour and services are of such a nature that they are in great demand.

One request was received to withdraw special constables from a Black residential area, namely Old Crossroads. This request received prominence in the media. According to the Divisional Commissioner of the Western Province the people who made the request could not substantiate the complaints they had against the special constables.

In contrast the hon the Minister of Law and Order and the Commissioner of the SA Police have received several requests from Black city and town councils to expand the existing services of special constables and to introduce new services in the residential areas in which special constables are not yet being used. However, no prominence was given to these requests.

The SA Police do not content themselves with the intitial basic training of special constables. They are trained further on an on-going basis, and it is noticeable that this training makes a dramatic contribution to greater productivity and more controlled behaviour in the community. I understand there are plans to train a further 3 000 special constables in the 1989-90 financial year, who will be used in the place of permanent members to man police stations. This will mean that more permanent members of the Force will be freed for active policing functions.

The way in which a new dimension of the SAP has been very successfully implemented within a very short space of time, is another feather in the cap of the hon the Minister of Law and Order, the Commissioner of Police and the SAP as a whole. This makes the reasonable public feel confident that the Police were able to adjust rapidly to changed circumstances and implement a practical solution to overcome new challenges. Because we are paying tribute to the Police today, I should like to associate myself with this by also paying tribute to the special constables who are performing an indispensable task.

Mr M RAJAB:

Mr Chairman, I must agree with the hon member that in these times when there is a shortage of policemen, special “kitskonsta-bels” could well be used. I must caution, however, that we must be as selective when we appoint them as we are with the appointment of our normal policemen. We have heard in this Chamber before of some of the irregularities which have been committed by the “kitskonsta-bels”.

Like my colleague the hon member for Houghton, I too would like to begin on a positive note. I am pleased that the present hon Minister has shown a lot more concern for the people whom he incarcerates than has been shown by some of his predecessors, particularly the Minister who was left cold at the death in detention of Steve Biko.

We are aware that during the last few months this hon Minister has met with and has listened to the pleas and the arguments of many representatives of those hundreds of people who have been detained—some without trial for more than a year. We are aware that he has undertaken to and has released a very substantial number of them and for this we are very grateful.

I am sure the last thing this hon Minister wants is for a detainee to die in detention in his jails. His meetings and his discussions with churchmen and lawyers have shown that he is a man of some flexibility and that he is a man with the courage to act when he has to.

However, I want to say to the hon the Minister that our concern is that there should be no detainees at all at the present time. As the Minister of Law and Order we believe that he has been given far too extensive executive powers to detain people as he sees fit. As Minister of Law and Order he is the law and it is a matter of great regret to us that our courts are unable even to review his decision.

We have always said—and we repeat it again here this afternoon—that for there to be peace and order in this country, there must be a peaceful political settlement of our constitutional problems in this country. These have to be negotiated with very many people and unless this country returns to the rule of law where the courts and not the Minister have the final say on the rights of both the Government and the individual, it will be almost impossible to negotiate a peaceful settlement in this country.

We in the DP believe that our society has a very high incidence of crime and this has been evidenced by the report of the Commissioner. In many cases the crime rate in our cities compares unfavourably with those in cities of the Third World and in the United States. We are aware of the structural problems in our society which have given rise to these crime rates and these must be addressed as a matter of urgency.

At the same time we also believe that this society of ours must be protected from crime and from lawlessness. We want to make it very clear that we believe in the maintenance of a strong police force which is well disciplined, well managed, adequately staffed and well paid but accountable for all of its actions. This is how it should be.

Therefore I am concerned, as other hon members of this House have been, about the fact that some 2 500 posts in the Police cannot be filled because of the cutbacks in funds. We say that this will naturally affect the anti-crime activities of the Police Force. Not only is this a concern of ours, but we are greatly concerned that despite the fact that we have something like 66 000 members in the Force at present, the Force really needs something in the order of 15 000 more individuals if it is to fulfill all of its functions as an anti-crime department. I am sick and tired of bringing this to the attention of the hon the Minister whenever we have to talk about crime in our particular areas. I want to say to the hon the Minister that it is about time that he leaned on his colleague, the hon the Minister of Finance, so that he may be assured that the funds he requires for the functioning of his department are in fact provided.

We say that perhaps a lead could be taken from what has been happening in Durban, where that city in fact provides a good police force, the City Police. We believe in the concept of the “bobby on the beat” and we believe that this could be done elsewhere as well.

I want to bring to the attention of this House and of the hon the Minister a matter which was raised in the newspapers some time ago, but which seems to have died a natural death. I want to refer the hon the Minister to a report to the effect that the European Commission in Brussels has asked our ambassador there for a report on an unexplained undercover search of the premises of the Kagiso Trust in Protea House, West Street, Durban. It has been reported that Kagiso Trust lawyer, Mr Yunus Mohammed, has alleged that he was manhandled by members of the Police Force when he caught them more or less red-handed searching his premises without proper authorisation. I want to tell the hon the Minister that this Mr Mohammed has reported how he broke from their grasp and escaped in his car. He laid a charge and nothing has come of this. It has been reported that a Captain Marais, a police liaison officer who is stationed in Pretoria, said that he had no information about this raid or about the fact that Mr Mohammed had been manhandled and had laid a charge. I would like to ask the hon the Minister this afternoon what the circumstances of this particular incident were. I would like to ask him what has happened to this particular matter.

I now want to refer to the hardy annual of the high number of unsolved murder cases in the Indian community. The hon the Minister is well aware that I have raised this issue with him consistently from time to time and I want to draw the attention of the hon the Minister to the fact that the last time we debated his Vote that he assured me that something would be done in this regard. I want to report this afternoon that regrettably nothing much has happened. I want to ask the hon the Minister again this afternoon whether he can tell us what has happened to these unsolved murder cases in the Indian community, particularly in and around Durban.

Finally, I want to raise the issue of Sydenham police station with the hon the Minister. I want to tell him that I have been visiting this police station, which is in my constituency, from time to time. As he knows, the Sydenham police station serves a very large area. It serve Reservoir Hills, Clare Estate, Sydenham, Asherville and parts of Westville. When I was there, there were many complaints from my constituents to the effect that this police station has not been repaired for a long, long time.

I visited the police station again recently, when I saw for myself the very dilapidated condition in which this police station is. I want to recommend to the hon the Minister that it is about time that he did something about it. In fact, if he were to speak to his own people at that police station, I am sure they will report to him that something needs to be done on an urgent basis. I want to put this to the hon the Minister, and ask him to to something about it very quickly.

Mr A C A C GROBLER:

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to follow on the hon member for Springfield, who made a reasonable contribution to the debate. I am, however, worried about his moderate tone compared to that of the hon member for Claremont. I say this because I believe the final word on the membership application of the hon member for Claremont has not been spoken.

*The SAP is often accused of misusing the restricted available manpower. On the left-wing side it is claimed that there is too much emphasis on the implementation of security legislation. On the right-wing side it is claimed that the police’s hands are cut off by the way in which they are allegedly hampered politically in performing their duties. Both standpoints are untrue. The SAP is pre-eminently that organisation which does everything possible to do the task entrusted to it in an unprejudiced way and to the best of its ability. There is no interference in their activities and they act in accordance with the existing legislation and regulations. South Africa has always been proud of its legal system, and the SAP plays an extremely important impartial part in this regard. Colour, creed and other distinguishing factors do not play any part.

I should like to devote my attention today to the crime of vehicle theft, and I want to exchange certain ideas about this with hon members. The negative effect of vehicle theft on the country’s economy cannot be ignored. To the average citizen, his vehicle is probably his most important asset, second only to his home. It is not only the economic burden placed on the Republic, but also the aspect of violence involved in vehicle theft that gives cause for great alarm. There are more and more incidents in which vehicle thieves are found to be in possession of firearms and do not hesitate to use such arms when they are confronted. During the past year numerous members of the Force have had to make the supreme sacrifice in the performance of their duties.

How does the SAP approach this problem of vehicle theft? They are intensely aware of the importance of specialisation, also for the SAP, and this has found substance in the establishment of numerous specialised units, also with regard to the theft of vehicles. The success of these specialised units can be gauged according to the reduction in the number of stolen vehicles since 1987. In 1986 there were 67 008 cases of theft as against 57 851 cases in 1988. That is a drop of 14%. It is also important to point out that 52% of all vehicles stolen over the past three years have been retrieved. Previously a lack of expertise was one of the most common problems experienced by vehicle branches. This deficiency has been eliminated to a great extent by means of intensive courses for members of vehicle branches. Courses were also given to units of the former SA Railways Police in order to combat illegal road transport.

In addition, the Police are constantly involved in making the public aware of their role in combating this crime by means of reports in the different media. One must not lose sight of the effect of closer liaison by the SAP with the private sector, for example car manufacturers and insurance companies. Vehicle theft is not only a big problem in the RSA, however, but it necessitates close liaison with neighbouring states and even countries abroad. Since a lack of expertise is a big obstacle here too, there has even been inter alia a course for the Royal Lesotho Mounted Police and constant attempts are made to form stronger ties. One must keep in mind throughout that vehicle thieves have an extremely attractive market for their goods in neighbouring states. An important but alarming fact which has emerged, is the fact that the ANC sometimes makes use of stolen vehicles from the Republic in Zambia. Drugs, especially Mandrax, are often used as payment in Zambia for vehicles stolen in the RSA.

To come back to liaison with neighbouring states, one must mention unfortunately that equal success is not attained everywhere, but it is important to remember that liaison does take place. There is exceptional contact with certain states, such as Lesotho, Botswana, Malawi and Swaziland. Relations with countries such as Mozambique, Zimbabwe and Zambia can and must improve, but attempts to co-operate are continuing.

The SAP is not a member of Interpol, but contact does exist with countries such as Britain, West Germany, Italy, France, Australia and New Zealand. Even America has approached the RSA with enquiries via France. The respect with which representatives of the SAP are regarded is clear from the invitation received by the SAP from the International Auto Theft Investigation Association to an annual seminar in America in 1988. Two officers attended the conference and one of them was elected as the Regional Representative: Southern Africa of this international association.

The above-mentioned invitation and the election of the member as the representative for Southern Africa definitely confirm that the SAP are regarded as leaders in the sphere of combating vehicle theft. Over and above the theft and direct sale of stolen vehicles as units, there are more and more cases of vehicles being demolished and their parts and components being sold to various scrapyards. This is a new challenge and the investigation of this kind of crime requires a large degree of special and expert knowledge.

In the difficult financial times we are living in, vehicle owners are also exploited by unscrupulous people and money-lenders. Money is lent to a person and his vehicle taken as security. Immediately after receipt of the vehicle, however, it is sold. Criminals are always finding new methods and the SAP has to keep up with every new devious method.

The primary objective and function of the Police is to combat crime. The general public can contribute a great deal to facilitating the task of the Police, however. For that reason I should one again like to suggest certain practical hints. Keys must never be left in a vehicle, for example, or duplicate keys kept in a vehicle. All doors and windows must be shut and locked, even when the vehicle is parked in a garage. Only recognised anti-theft equipment must be installed. When a vehicle is serviced, one must give only one’s work address and not one’s home address. Only the so-called service key must be left behind.

All locks must be inspected regularly and replaced when there is any sign of anyone’s having tampered with even one of them. One should not leave loose packages in the vehicle, since that attracts thieves. Isolated, lonely parking places, especially in dark places, should be avoided. One should affix secret marks to at least 10 spots on a vehicle in order to facilitate the identification of the vehicle. Passports, vehicle registration and identity documents must not be kept in the vehicle. A list of the numbers of the vehicle’s tyres, the radiator, radio, machine, chassis, transmission and differential must be kept up to date and in a safe place.

None of these measures will deter a determined thief, but at least they will hamper him in his task and will facilitate the tracking down and arrest of the malefactor. The various vehicle theft branches of the Police are doing everything in their power to combat this kind of crime. Long hours under difficult conditions are the rule. Despite this, they perform their task conscientiously and very diligently. On behalf of the public we thank them for their exceptional diligence and their contribution to a safer community.

*Mr C B HERANDIEN:

Mr Chairman, I wholeheartedly support the expressions of sympathy for the members in uniform who died in the course of duty. I also want to express my thanks to the Commissioner of Police who might not be with us next year. We thank him very sincerely for what he has meant to us during this period.

I am grateful that I can thank the hon the Minister today, because last time we had quite a few harsh words with one another about the police station at Eerste River.

The people of Eerste River are grateful, and I am certain that with the permission of the hon member for Riversdal, we shall raise a glass or two when building commences at the end of July. [Interjections.]

The hon the Minister of Law and Order is someone who, while the hon Ministers of Foreign Affairs and Defence are striving to achieve peace and stability on our borders, is prepared to ensure peace for us at home as well. I thank him for the way in which he has dealt with such an extremely sensitive matter as the question of the hunger-strikers, and for the fact that he eventually released some of them. I hope the rest will all be released by 18h00 tonight. [Interjections.]

I also want to thank the hon the Minister for the fact that this is the first time in our history that we are sending nine candidates on an officers’ course during May. This is indicative of a greater desire among our people to obtain better qualifications. The ranks and opportunities are now there, and the little CP constables who do not want to salute will soon enough see that they are dealing with a person with quite a few pips on his shoulder.

It is unfortunate that I must stop there with the congratulatory part of my speech, because I now have to start complaining. I want to complain about something that was also dealt with by the hon member for Robertson.

*The MINISTER OF LAW AND ORDER:

The election!

*Mr C B HERANDIEN:

No, it is not the election. Elections are the nicest part of politics! [Interjections.]

I am complaining about the way in which relatively young members of the SAP are summarily transferred. I am referring specifically to the Nigel case. There are a tremendous number of complaints. Policemen who completed their courses in December can no longer tolerate this. The CP must keep their CP constables there. We must approach the matter of transfers with greater circumspection and find out whether the people will adapt. I do not want to give my colleagues from the Transvaal a slap in the face, but the Transvalers are used to the Transvaal. Those of us from the Cape cannot adapt so well to the way things are done there. [Interjections.]

*The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Assembly):

Order! No, the hon member does not need that much encouragement. The hon member for Macassar may continue.

*Mr C B HERANDIEN:

There is another complaint I want to put to the hon the Minister. Since we are to be getting so many officers, I should like to know from him whether these officers of ours are going to visit only “Coloured” police stations or whether they will also be able to visit stations where there are White station commanders for example. I should like the hon the Minister to answer this question, because then I should one day like to accompany one of our high-ranking officers to Boksburg to see what type of treatment he would receive there.

The particular economic and financial background against which the Police budget for 1989-90 was drawn up meant that all services and functions had to be critically evaluated in order to keep activities within affordable limits. While the SAP’s draft budget for the 1989-90 financial year was being drawn up, contributions from all branches of the Force were taken into account in order to determine the real financial needs of the Force. Contributions were scaled down to such an extent that they represented the absolute minimum needs of the SAP in order to carry out the tasks stipulated in the Act.

The SAP’s guideline allocations for the 1988-89 financial year amounted to R1 944 926 000. The Treasury’s initial guideline amount for the 1989-90 financial year amounted to R2 000 000 000, but eventually came to R2 496 350 000. The SAP’s absolute minimum requirements for this financial year were scaled down to R2 287 306 000 without any salary improvements.

I want to dwell briefly on salary improvements. I admire the man in uniform who is prepared to do so much work for such a small salary. Year after year representations are made for the hon the Minister at least to consider the payment of overtime. Various people on both sides of the House have pointed to the inhumanly long hours that these people have to work.

It is clear from the above-mentioned figures that the minimum requirements of the SA Police have been scaled down by R107 631 000. What I want to ask the hon the Minister—other hon members have also referred to this—is to have a talk with his hon colleague in the Cabinet. I do not want to annoy the farmers, but when they complain that there are droughts or floods, it is not long before the maize farmers, for example, are given R400 million.

Here we have a crisis. In the first three months of 1989 a total of 1 225 members left the Police Force. I am convinced that this was because of their poor remuneration. I would very much like to be a member of the Police Force, but only for the beautiful uniform and definitely not for the salary. [Interjections.]

The allocated guideline amount in the SA Police’s budget in respect of staff expenditure was scaled down by R40 million. The approved establishment of the Police makes provision for 83 353 posts. We have heard many figures here today, but my figures seem to be correct. We have only 77 763 filled posts. This implies that there are at present 5 590 vacancies. We have all these vacancies, but at the same time we have to scale down expenditure by R40 million, in other words 2 500 posts will not be filled. How can we, with our ever-growing population, decrease the size of our Police Force?

The hon the Minister will have to devote serious attention to the matter. [Interjections.] In the first three months of this year alone, 1225 people left the Force. At the rate at which we are losing people, it appears we will never be able to fill all the existing vacancies. Year after year we will continue to complain to the hon the Minister that there are not enough policemen.

What is going to happen in practice? For example, if the police station in Eerste River is opened, policemen will be transferred there from elsewhere, the staff at other police stations will be reduced and they will complain again. The hon member for Bonteheuwel is still to speak, and he also wants to have his police station. Moreover he wants it to be fully manned. It is therefore very important for the hon the Minister to hold discussions with the hon the Minister of Finance in order to obtain more money.

There are more reasons why this is so important. It is, after all, not right, when there is trouble, for policemen to have to rush to the scene in their own cars in order to get there in time. Police vehicles always seem to be in need of repair. [Interjections.] One feels very sorry for the policemen when one sees how they have to struggle. Most of the time a group of reservists have to help push-start the police vans. [Interjections.] We certainly cannot combat crime on that basis.

I nevertheless want to thank the Police for doing excellent work with the few aids at their disposal, and we commend them highly for this. We shall certainly not berate them here, but when necessary, we shall deal with the facts.

Mr P G SOAL:

Mr Chairman, I regret that as I am involved in the debate in the Chamber of the House of Representatives, my contribution here this afternoon will be a hit-and-run piece. I hope the hon the Minister will accept my apologies as I will not be present when he responds to the debate.

This hon Minister has been responsible for a number of improvements in the performance of the SA Police. Not all that is done in the name of the Police is entirely acceptable, but that situation will never be attained, no matter what the political system in operation is in this country.

I would like to give a few examples of the positive developments during the term of office of this hon Minister. Much has been written during the course of the past few weeks and months of the activities of the Child Protection Unit.

A number of cases have been brought to the courts recently and much attention has been given to the successful work done by this unit. Many parents will be appreciative of the efforts of the unit and the success they have achieved in bringing to book the activities of paedophiles. We all wish the unit continued constructive success in this regard.

The state of emergency is an abomination and we would want it lifted immediately. The plight of the detained, some for as long as two and a half years without even being interrogated, is a state of affairs we cannot accept. The situation had deteriorated to such an extent that a large number of detainees felt obliged to embark on a hunger strike to draw attention to their plight. Once representations were made to the hon the Minister, he undertook to investigate their circumstances and most, if not all of them have been released. It is a pity the hon the Minister did not review the position of the detainees of his own volition, but the important point is that once pressure was brought to bear on him, he undertook to look into this situation and he did something about it.

During his term of office a great deal of attention has been given to the question of the bobby on the beat. In my own constituency there is a marked improvement in the situation and I am grateful to the hon the Minister for his sympathetic support in this regard.

The same applies to the question of police stations. I am most anxious to have a police station built in Rosebank in Johannesburg. The hon the Minister has not yet produced the goods but I know he is sympathetic to my representations and I am also grateful to him for this. I hope it will not be too long before he announces that construction of the new Rosebank Police Station will take place soon.

I now want to ask if he will give the same amount of attention to the “Dirty Tricks Department”. We all know that for many years there has been a group of individuals operating under the protection of the Government whose sole object in life has been to strike terror into the hearts of the left-wing opponents of the Government. Not the right-wingers—they get away scot-free. The right-wingers are allowed to operate with impunity, but that is another matter for another debate. On this occasion I want to draw attention to the activities of the terrorists who operate on behalf of the Government. For terrorists they are, as their objective is to ensure their victims live in a constant state of terror.

There are many instances one could mention of individuals whose houses have been burnt and their cars sabotaged or the cases of individuals who have died under strange circumstances. Many or most of these cases have never been solved.

I want to bring to the attention of this Committee the case of three young White women involved in student politics at UCT who live in a house in Observatory in Cape Town. One of the individuals is the chairperson of the SRC at UCT. The lease on the house is not registered in her name, neither is the telephone, which is not listed in the telephone directory. Some months ago these girls began to receive abusive telephone calls. Late at night the telephone would ring and if there was not someone swearing at them there was the heavy breathing trick. On other occasions they were subjected to the manic laughter machine—endless laughter echoing through an empty room. Not only do these government terrorists have access to private and privileged information such as …

The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Assembly):

Order! Is the hon member for Johannesburg North suggesting that there is a link between these persons that he refers to as “terrorists” and the Government?

Mr P G SOAL:

Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Assembly):

Order! I then have to request the hon member to withdraw it.

Mr P G SOAL:

I withdraw it. I then say that there are people who operate who have access to private and privileged information. They know who lives where, they have the schedule of unlisted telephone numbers and they also have a great deal of sophisticated equipment. To leave the telephone off the hook for long periods would be of no help as immediately it is replaced the instrument would ring and the tape of manic laughter would commence. The automatic equipment would dial the number continuously until a connection was made and the tape recorder would then come into operation. Great fun for some bully boys acting under protection.

This programme of terrorism continued for some time until one night when they were out visiting, some of the bully-boy terrorists threw a stone through their front window and slashed the tyres of the car parked outside the house. This incident was reported to me …

*Mr H J KRIEL:

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon member is referring to terrorists acting, while just a short while ago he indicated a connection between the police and terrorists …

*The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Assembly):

Order! The hon member did withdraw that on the Chair’s request.

*Mnr H J KRIEL:

He has just done it again.

*The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Assembly):

Order! The hon member for Johannesburg North may proceed.

Mr P G SOAL:

Thank you, Sir. He is wasting my time.

They threw a stone through the window and slashed the tyres of the car parked outside. The incident was reported to me and I immediately sought an interview with the hon the Minister to express my concern. I want to say at once that he was equally concerned, and undertook to look into the matter. He obviously did, as a policeman from the local police station called the next day and in a most meticulous manner took all the details, mentioning that the hon the Minister’s office had displayed an interest in the case. The telephone calls stopped immediately. The reign of terror came to an end, because I was able to have a few words with the hon the Minister. For this I am most grateful to him, but what about the other Whites who do not have contact with their MPs, and what about the thousands and thousands of Blacks who do not have an MP?

Another student involved in UCT politics moved house at the beginning of this year and applied for a telephone. The day the telephone was installed, the manic laughter telephone calls commenced. Who are the people who are informed of these personal details, and for what reason? Why are they allowed to pursue their acts of terror, and why does this only stop when the hon the Minister’s office becomes involved?

The hon the Minister has shown himself to be a man of compassion when required. Koevoet was disbanded, and I ask him to investigate the “dirty tricks” group to ensure that it, too, is disbanded. This would be in the best interests of the Police themselves, whose job it is to protect all the people of this country.

Mr A E LAMBAT:

Mr Chairman, owing to the outbreak of country-wide unrest from the beginning of September 1984, which caused a lot of harm and misery to the innocent public, the SA Police applied for four helicopters during January 1985. These helicopters would be used exclusively for the prevention of large-scale violence, arson and other types of crime, especially if they occurred simultaneously at various places and over a wide area.

It was soon realised that prevention could not be undertaken by patrols, especially not in the larger suburbs and areas like the Eastern Province, the West Rand, Northern Natal and Port Natal where the greatest concentration of unrest was experienced.

Since then 16 helicopters have been supplied to the SA Police and are used exclusively for the combating of large-scale unrest. It is apparent that the presence of a police helicopter is definitely a deterrent. The helicopter operation has been successful in the investigation of stock theft when time is of the essence in preventing thieves from taking the stock across the borders, for armed robberies, dagga raids, rescue operations and generally for the combating of crime of various natures and types.

In cases of hijacking of aircraft, buses or other vehicles, helicopters are mostly used for fast deployment, observation and forcing trains, buses and other vehicles to stop at deserted places. They are also used for the protection of the pipeline of the SATS, which covers approximately 3 000 km. They are also used in assisting the SATS, which has a rail network of more than 30 000 km. Many of the railway lines, bridges and tunnels are in mountainous areas and are inaccessible except by helicopter.

In addition to these 16 helicopters, the Air Wing also has two fixed-wing aircraft. From 5 August 1985 to 31 March 1989, a total of 8 648 hours were flown by the helicopters and 800 hours by the fixed-wing aircraft.

Use of these helicopters during 1988 proved to be invaluable. The following arrest and rescue operations, among others, were executed: Three escapees were rounded up at Onderstepoort; a suspected murderer was arrested in Deneysville after an elderly man had been murdered on a farm near Meyerton; two suspects in a murder case were arrested; 19 suspects were arrested for armed robbery and R23 000 was recovered; a rapist was arrested.

During a vehicle theft operation 148 vehicles with an estimated value of R2,2 million were recovered. Nine suspects were arrested for armed robbery and R104 800 was recovered. Stock to the value of R679 500 was recovered. The body of a Black man who fell from a cliff in Natal on 22 June 1988 was recovered. A woman who was involved in an accident near Bloemfontein was transported to Johannesburg Hospital. There was also the search for an aeroplane which crashed near Louw’s Creek and the recovery of a body.

Five bodies of Black people who crashed and plunged down a cliff at Hazelmere Dam were recovered. Search operations were also conducted in the Umhloti lagoon on 22 December >1988 in a drowning incident. On 26 February 1989 10 Whites were rescued after their boat capsized on the Vaal River. The Police also conducted a search for the body of a canoeist during the canoe race on the Umkomaas River.

I think that the air wing of the SAP has proven itself as an indispensable resource. The SAP showed good foresight in acquiring these machines whereby a lot of good work has been done and excellent results have been achieved. This helicopter service is provided to the community and to the country.

However, 16 are not enough for the type of work that is being done. More machines are required. We do have a shortage of manpower in the Police Force and these machines can go a long way towards solving the problem to a certain extent. Good work cannot be condemned.

Society has to be protected and for this reason authorities have to find ways and means to make life easier and safe for the people. God also grants guidance in this field for the sake of good creation. [Time expired.]

*Dr P J STEENKAMP:

Mr Chairman, I listened with interest to the hon member for Actonville, and it is very clear that he is sympathetic towards the SAP. I also listened with interest to the hon member for Johannesburg North, and especially to his attempts to discredit the SAP and their task. I shall refer to him again later in my address, and specifically to his party and their attitude in respect of the SAP.

In the first place, I want to pay attention today to the frustrations that our Police sometimes experience and also show the intentional provocation they are exposed to. Naturally I shall have to confine myself to a few examples only.

I understand that, during their training, the Police are thoroughly informed of the fact that police work is a task which has to be handled with kid gloves. There are, however, moments during which I would have plucked those gloves off if I had been a policeman. I am thinking about the well-known case of Master Tutu and the policeman’s cap.

I want to accept that this kind of deviant behaviour can once again be traced back to the atmosphere to which he was exposed as a child. I would, however, like to know from the hon member for Houghton, who sometimes has a sharp tongue with reference to the police, what her reaction would have been if it was her hat that had been crumpled up like that. I can imagine that a high-heeled shoe could be a deadly weapon in the hands of such a formidable woman.

What would the hon member for Claremont’s reaction be to such provocation? He always criticises the Police. However, to me he looks like the kind of man who would run away in such situations. Besides, he has a reputation for running away.

In this respect the DP—that is embracing the hon member for Claremont—has a duty to dissociate itself in an unqualified manner from his attitude to the Police and the Defence Force. If they do not do so, we will know that they are still soft on security. Today we demand a clear point of view from the DP in this respect.

However, we not only expect our policemen to keep smiling while acts of aggression are being carried out against their caps, we also expect them to have understanding for, and act responsibly towards, those parts of the community whose cultural, religious and social traditions are strange to them.

The State morgue in Durban illustrates my point. In the Moslem community a deceased person be buried within 24 hours. If he dies on a Saturday, the pathological examination cannot wait until Monday. The personnel in the morgue had to adapt their availability accordingly and if necessary, also had to be available over weekends, also on Sundays. They do it. They offer this additional service. In this respect I want to make a friendly appeal to my hon Moslem colleagues in the House of Delegates: “Encourage your community to show appreciation in this respect for the additional service that the Police provides for your community. In this way you will receive even better co-operation and understanding from that resort. On the other hand threats and insults would have the opposite effect.” We as politicians have a special obligation in this respect.

Our Police go out of their way to serve the community. Nevertheless there are certain sectors in our community, also in the communities that are directly represented in this Parliament, whose aim it is to expose the Police to provocation. This includes calculated and degrading remarks, insults and high and mighty attitudes.

I will illustrate this statement by referring to a protest meeting that took place on 16 March at the campus of a certain White university. The security police attended the meeting under a section 25. A law professor at this university was a ring-leader at the meeting and very defiant. He went out of his way—so I was told by persons who attended the meeting—to insult the two young men of the Security Police. Continuous reference was made to their low intelligence, as well as the low intelligence of their superiors. They were promised that when the day of freedom came, they would stand accused in South Africa’s own Nuremburg trial. After the meeting the Police were sworn at by some of those present, while their conduct was recorded by students’ video cameras, hoping for one of the young men to lose his self-control. They kept smiling. Today I salute our Security Police.

Now I have a few questions to that professor who was such a spitfire. Does he not think that as a man of law and as professor he owes the Police and his students a more responsible attitude— some were ashamed of him—and a better example? If the policemen and their superiors are so stupid, why has he and his henchmen never in all these years succeeded in their ANC-orientated ambitions? Is it perhaps because they are the naive ones among us? Why did he not remain in Zimbabwe after the day of freedom came, but run away to South Africa? I understand that a few of his colleagues and kindred spirits even went to Australia!

I also have a question for the Democratic Party: Do they condemn, as we do, this deliberate provocation of our Security Forces, initiated by pseudo-intellectuals and pseudo-liberals on our campuses, or are some of them part of this campaign? If they do not condemn and reject this behaviour unequivocally, but resort to all kinds of evasive replies, we and the electorate know that they are still soft on security in spite of their present, transparent attempts to rid themselves of that image. They must also tell us what their attitude is to discussions with the ANC and Joe Slovo?

Apart from the attack on his personal integrity, the policemen is also the target for stones, petrol-bombs, handgrenades and firearms. He must remain calm and unruffled. For the sake of political considerations our Police must sometimes stand by and watch while vehicles are burnt, plundered or pelted with stones. In the process they feel as though they are being forced to neglect their duty. The frustration and even insecurity caused by this must not be underestimated. We are dealing with twenty-year-olds. We must also have understanding for them as policemen.

Another delicate aspect which frustrates both the Police and the public is the handling of complaints with regard to group areas. I understand—and this is in keeping with my own experience—that it seems as if in all provinces the most junior and even inexperienced constables are being burdened with this extremely sensitive task.

If that is so, I can think of two reasons. Firstly, somewhere on higher level it was decided that such an investigation should rather not result in anything and therefore be sabotaged by inefficiency. The hon the Minister is probably aware of such assertions which are doing the rounds. I naturally find it far-fetched, and I hope that it is.

Otherwise it may in reality be the case that our police commanders decided that such investigations waste the time of the Police because they hardly ever lead anywhere. The attorneys-gen-eral cannot bring themselves to prosecute. I would not find such a view far-fetched. My own experience has shown that one might achieve something if one paid the attorney-general a personal visit, made an appointment with the hon the Minister of Justice and addressed a letter filled with frustration to the hon the State President. Apart from that, as MP one must ensure that the relevant files do not get stuck permanently in certain departments. It is indeed a comedy of errors.

I would like to hear the hon the Minister’s opinion on this. However, I want to give him the assurance that this is a widely-discussed aspect, and especially in the Police. For them it is a source of great frustration and doubt. It is unnecessary to refer to the political repercussions to the police. I believe that the hon the Minister of Law and Order is well aware of this. He is a clever Minister.

I want to conclude with the appeal that not only should the public have understanding and appreciation for the huge task of the Police, but that we in the Government should not add to their frustration.

Now I want to thank the hon the Minister, or is it perhaps the hon the Deputy Minister, at the end of my address. I have noticed that over the two days his Vote was being discussed, attractive young policewomen have been guarding Parliament. It makes this place very interesting. Can we not do it every year?

Mr K H LATEGAN:

Mr Chairman, I represent a section of the most dispossessed community in South Africa. The so-called Coloured community has under the apartheid laws of South Africa been dispossessed of the most precious gifts of any citizen of a country, and that is the right of freedom of movement; the right to choose where one wants to live; to choose whom one wants to associate with; the right to swim where one wants to; the right to equal job opportunities; the right to freedom to free education and the right to be recognised as a real and true citizen of the country of one’s birth. These are prerequisites to the creation of a stable society. Although I may be repeating much of what other hon members have said before me, it is important to continuously restate my opposition, and that of the LP, to the hurtful legislation which appears on the Statute Book. Many of these laws have given rise to the damning situation within our townships. An example of these Acts is the vicious Group Areas Act, through which more than 100 000 Coloured families have been dispossessed of their houses and land. It has created absolute bitterness and hatred within the community and also towards the authorities.

The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Assembly):

Order! The hon member will have to come closer to the Vote under discussion.

Mr K H LATEGAN:

I am coming to that. It is primarily through this Act that concentrated, squalid dormitory townships had been created. There are huge housing shortages, gross overcrowding as people live two to three families in a single bedroom house; large scale unemployment and many young people walking the streets. This is the picture which one is confronted with in any so-called Coloured township throughout the country and, nearer home, on the Cape Flats in my constituency, the township of Hanover Park.

I wish to focus my attention on Hanover Park as it is a prime example of a situation prevalent in any township in South Africa.

The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Assembly):

Order! The hon member has not yet responded to my request to come closer to the Vote under discussion.

Mr K H LATEGAN:

As a result of this very depressing situation a vast breeding ground for discontent, uprising, dreaded crime and violence and drug dealing was created. We now have a situation where people fear for their very existence. Crime is rife. Mothers fear for their daughters’ safety, the aged fear to walk in the street and they are robbed of their pensions. Families have to lock themselves up in their homes when gang fights take place. There are hundreds of gangs within the townships. Some of them have a membership of up to 500 persons.

These gangs have virtually taken over control of almost every aspect of township life. They have carte blanche to virtually everything that operates in the townships, that is the kombi taxi services, drug houses, shebeens and also protection rackets. The ordinary township dweller finds himself helpless in the face of onslaught from many quarters.

As far as crime is concerned, he has to rely on the Police to protect him. This, however, is an area of great concern to the community. Responses from the Police to reported crimes vary from laxity to no response at all. Recently, on a Sunday evening, there was no response from the Police for more than three hours after it was reported that a gang fight had taken place. The people were even prevented from going to church. In a gang fight virtually every type and form of weapon is used.

There are two police stations serving the township of Hanover Park. However, their response to crime leaves a lot to be desired. Often there is confusion as to the township in which a crime has been committed. This often leads to the public experiencing a feeling of discontentment towards the Police. Through the good offices of the hon the Minister, I have had a temporary office set up in Hanover Park. Although the office is of tremendous value and advantage to the community because it is within easy reach, it is unfortunately ill-equipped to operate functionally. The office does not have a vehicle that can be used to respond immediately to any crime that is reported. The policemen present have to radio another police station, depending on the territory in which the crime has been committed. More often than not there is no vehicle available.

I am aware that a new police station is being built right on the border of Hanover Park. However, I believe that the present temporary charge office must be retained and properly furnished and equipped to serve the immediate community. I am not finding fault with the Police. I am aware that the job of the Police is not an easy one. The Police has been castigated as the enemy of the people in times of uprising by radical elements and persons who are not aware of the real state of affairs as it prevails in our townships. I am not saying that the Police is always innocent of committing any treachery. However, the Police has a particular job to do in our society and that is the maintenance of law and order.

I believe that whatever statistics are produced to prove that crime in whatever form has taken a plunge, this does not reflect the real situation, and that is the crime that does not get reported because of numerous factors, including intimidation. I also believe that arresting people and throwing them into jail does not solve our problem on the ground. Pollsmoor alone has a prison population of 6 000. Many of them are juveniles. I am grateful for the fact that many of these prisoners are allowed to complete or further their education or take up some form of trade. However, once that person is released from prison, he is released back into a savage and violent environment. Incidentally, living conditions in Pollsmoor Prison are akin to a five star hotel. What effect does rehabilitation have on such a person after he leaves prison?

I believe that besides the role of policemen as enforcers of law and order, they should at the same time and in consultation with other State departments, local authorities and members of Parliament, tackle the many problems related to the day-to-day living conditions of the township community. The lack of housing is an absolute priority. The upgrading of townships and the total onslaught of legislation which is offensive to the whole oppressed community must be seriously and urgently reviewed.

I am appealing to the hon the Minister to use his influence in the Cabinet to have interdepartmental state committees set up so that they can investigate and tackle these very vexing problems prevalent within our community. I am extremely grateful for the fact that under the present hon Minister, a lot of emphasis has been placed on the strengthening of the relationship between the SAP and the South African public. I wish to underscore the irrefutable fact that the Police Force cannot perform its task without the unequivocal, active and moral support of its peoples. The Police Force cannot be successful in its duty if right at the core of the community life there is ferment because of factors militating against their very existence. I hope and trust that the hon the Minister will come up with some very clear solutions and answers.

*The MINISTER OF LAW AND ORDER:

Mr Chairman, I want to say at once that if, in the replies I have given to hon members, I have accidentally omitted or forgotten something, or do not have the answer available today or tomorrow, we shall be examining hon members’ speeches with a fine-tooth comb and giving them written replies or discussing the matter with them personally.

†We intend to solve hon members’ problems and not to side-step them. Therefore we shall look at it as has been the case in the past two years.

*At the outset I want to thank hon members sincerely for their friendly remarks. We appreciate it, and I can give hon members the assurance that the policemen who are listening also greatly appreciate it. I was thunderstruck when I even heard some kind remarks today from the hon member for Claremont. [Interjections.] He has left. When I last heard, there was an occasion on which the Police ran away from him, but I do not really know any more, because today he was heaping praise on them. He probably hopes they will stand still when next he wants to talk to them.

I was not surprised that the hon member for Houghton also made some friendly remarks. Like the hon member for Claremont, she has come to know the value of the SAP. They apparently now understand that the Police are indispensable, that the country cannot continue to function and that there cannot be law, order, security and peace without the SAP. Other hon members present here realised this a long time ago, and I am glad to see that those two hon members have also realised it now.

Hon members referred to detentions in terms of section 29 and also detentions in terms of the emergency regulations. I want to make certain general remarks about this. The question of the detention of activists and other radicals in terms of the emergency regulations, and their release, have enjoyed great prominence in South Africa, and even abroad, during the past three months.

“Preventive detention” or “detention with trial”, as the propaganda machine of our enemies tells us to refer to it, is a sensitive matter that can easily be used as propaganda against us. This kind of detention, however, is not restricted to South Africa—it is to be found in many Western and African countries. Although we would like to do without it, conditions in South Africa still make that impossible. They are indispensable, and if we are really serious about maintaining and extending law and order, stability and democratic value systems in South Africa, we must be prepared to live with this.

†I want to say to the hon members for Springfield and Houghton that in this stage in our history we cannot do without this system.

*Many half-truths and even untruths about the so-called hunger-strike and the release of hunger-strikers have been bruited abroad with mischievous intent. This afternoon it is time for me to put this matter into its proper perspective.

Releases are part of a continuous, ongoing process. At the very beginning of the hungerstrike, in my discussions with churchmen and lawyers, I stated that whether the detainees would be released or not would be considered and dealt with, as part of an ongoing process, in the normal course of events. That statement was disbelieved, and the radicals announced the release of the detainees as a concession to pressure and a major victory.

†I think the hon member for Johannesburg North mentioned it here again this afternoon.

*It was in the alternative media, in particular, that it was presented in this light. In this regard I must say that generally speaking the ordinary media dealt with the whole question in an exceptionally responsible manner. I should like to thank them for it.

I want to give hon members a table indicating releases since January 1988. Then they will realise what the actual state of affairs is. I shall mention to hon members the number of people released on a monthly basis from 1 January 1988 to 31 March 1989. In January 1988, 179 people were released. In January 1989, 182 people were released.

*Mr C W EGLIN:

Many people were detained.

*The MINISTER:

Would the hon member for Sea Point please listen for a moment? Perhaps he would learn something. In February 1988, 493 people were released, whilst 325 people were released in February 1989. That is after the hunger-strike started. In March 1988, 516 people were released, whilst 465 people were released in March 1989. So I could go on listing the number of people released in 1988: In April, 399; in May, 321; in June, 286; in July, 232; in August, 110; in September, 122; in October, 179; in November, 358; and in December, 388.

Here I am emphasising that when I said that we were releasing people as part of an ongoing process, that was precisely what we were doing. After the hunger-strike began, and after so-called pressure had been brought to bear on the Police and the Minister and we “bowed” to pressure, we released fewer people than we did in the same period last year when there was no hunger-strike.

I also want to comment on the activities for which people were detained. Here we were dealing with leaders and hardened activists, and that is why the in-depth discussions I was able to conduct with church leaders, legal representatives and parents were extremely valuable in helping me to decide about what I should do in each individual case.

These detainees, however, are not as angelic as they were presented to me and to the world by some people. In each case we obtained, in various ways, reliable information that was confirmed, as far as possible, from other sources too. The problem was simply that as a result of a frightening intimidation campaign we could not obtain witnesses to give evidence about this in court.

This information bore testimony to a variety of activities, and I should like to quote a few examples to hon members. These are typical examples which I have taken from files I have had in my possession:

Hy was betrokke by verskeie dade van brand-stigting en die uitbrand van voertuie en busse met behulp van petrolbomme.
Hy was aktief by die implimentering van skole-en verbruikersboikotte betrokke.
Hy het Swartes met ’n sambok geïntimideer om nie van busvervoer gebruik te maak nie.
Hy neem ook mense se goedere af wat in Blanke gebiede gekoop is, en vernietig dit.
Kinders is met ’n sambok uit hul klasse gejaag en boeke is vernietig.
Hy tree op as ’n sogenaamde landdros in “volkshowe” waar hy mense vonnis en ook persoonlik lyfstraf toedien.
Hy was by twee voorvalle betrokke waar petrol oor twee Swartmans uitgegooi is en aan die brand gesteek is.
Hy was by ’n voorval betrokke waar petrolbomme na ’n lid van die SA Polisie se huis gegooi is.
Hy was aktief by die bevordering van ’n busboikot te Kagiso betrokke.
Hy gooi klippe na die busse en tree as “Q-marshall” op.
Hy was betrokke toe ’n Swartman en ’n polisiebeampte te Kagiso met die halssnoer-metode vermoor is.
Hy neem aktief deel aan die sogenaamde “volkshowe” en deel straf uit by die verrigtinge.
Hy was ook betrokke by die afdwing van ’n verbruikersboikot.

So I could go on listing more examples. There are hundreds of similar examples that we have obtained from the files I had to consider when these people were released.

Mrs H SUZMAN:

Well, charge them!

*The MINISTER:

I have told the hon member for Houghton that we cannot obtain witnesses who are prepared to appear in court. [Interjections.] They are intimidated and death threats are made against them!

Those people were, for varying periods of time, removed from the communities which they recklessly terrorised, because they were detained in terms of the emergency regulations. People are free to argue about that, but it is a fact that the removal of these radicals and activists from our communities—I concede that this is for long periods—considerably reduces the unrest in those communities. That is as plain as a pikestaff. Violence and bloodshed, intimidation and boycotts are generally far less prevalent these days. Communities attest to that fact. I receive letters and representations from the people. It is there for everyone to see—everyone, that is, who wants to take a balanced view of things.

It is true that I have a responsibility towards detainees, but I have an equal responsibility and duty to the millions of peaceful inhabitants who are living and working throughout South Africa and who want to live their lives in peace. In my conduct I must therefore try to maintain a balance between the interests of detainees and the interests of the communities from which they come. It would be extremely irresponsible of me simply to return people, who engaged in such activities, amongst other things, to the communities from which they came, and to do so without any limitations or restrictions.

This brings me to the following point, ie release under certain conditions. That is, inter alia, the reason why a close examination of the circumstances surrounding each individual case was necessary.

As far as possible there had to be an evaluation to ascertain whether the person responsible for the activities, for which he was originally detained, would continue with those activities or not. The fact is that in the majority of cases these detainees envisaged continuing with their revolutionary activities after I had released them. If available information indicated that this would be the case, I had to take certain steps to ensure that they did not continue to do so, and these steps involved imposing certain restrictions on them. Let me concede that in certain cases the restrictions are fairly severe, but there was no case of anyone having been placed under so-called house arrest.

Attempts were made to impose the limitations in such a way that a person would be prevented from involving himself in further revolutionary activities, but that he could go to work and, under the circumstances, continue living his life as normally as possible.

I want to point out that the use of so-called house arrest is recognised and accepted throughout the world as a method of restricting the activities of activists and radicals. In typical revolutionary fashion renewed attempts are already being made to attack and cast suspicion on these conditions and restrictions. We expected that. As has been said, as far as possible I am reasonable and fair in my approach in this regard. If these conditions therefore place an unreasonable or unfair burden on a former detainee, I am prepared to consider motivated representations to have them amended.

In the same breath, however, let me issue a warning that any violation of the conditions will be regarded in an extremely serious light. Dossiers will at once be submitted to the attorneys-general for their decision with a view to criminal proceedings. Such violations will be regarded as criminal offences. In this regard dossiers have already been registered in the cases of a few people who have purposely violated their restriction orders. They must carry the consequences.

In conclusion let me repeat, as far as this matter is concerned, what I said earlier: The hungerstrike was initiated by outside people and organisations and was orchestrated to achieve their own reprehensible objectives. During a conference held in Norway in March of this year the ANC said that the hunger-strike should be used to mobilise the so-called masses. A member of the UDF declared that it should be employed in an attempt to re-establish the radical united front. Hon members know of the terrible acts of violence that have resulted from such activities in the past. I have a duty and a responsibility to protect our people against this.

In dealing with hunger-strike and the conditional releases I took suitable steps to foil the execrable plans of the revolutionaries and radicals. In the interests of all South Africans I shall continue to do so. Our people cannot be delivered into the hands of bloodthirsty aggressors.

I generally want to say that many hon members mentioned insufficient funds for the SAP, inadequate manpower and also inadequate equipment, inter alia vehicles. It is no use arguing in the face of this fact. We would very much have liked more funds. We would very much have liked more manpower and more equipment. It is a fact that we have too few people and insufficient funds and that our equipment is not always adequate. Many hon members referred to that.

I want to tell hon members, however, that we must accept that we shall never have an ideal situation. We shall never have enough money and manpower and there will never be a sufficient number of vehicles either. That is also the case in the rest of the world. This problem is universal. There is never enough money to meet all the needs. That is the first point I want to make.

We must therefore tell one another that we must also take a balanced look at this matter. We must not go overboard and spend too much money on this. It is also a fact that if we wanted to devote more money to this, we would simply have to take those funds from someone else.

I think some hon members hit the nail on the head this afternoon. Some hon members said we should devote more attention to the socioeconomic problems, the social problems, because that was the seed-bed of crime. Those problems must be eliminated. On the other hand, some people say that much less money should be spent on policing. They say that much less money should be made available for the security services and more for social development and that we would then not have any crime. There are consequently two sides to the question, and I am therefore asking us to take a balanced view of this matter and not to go overboard.

I have acknowledged that we have too little money and that we would like to have more. The question is therefore what we must do about it. Hon members referred to the fact that I should hold discussions with the hon the Minister of Finance. I want to give hon members the assurance this afternoon that the hon the Minister of Finance is a good friend of the SAP. If hon members were to make an analysis—I think it was the hon member for Macassar who did so here this afternoon—of the funds we asked for, what was initially allocated to us and what we ultimately obtained, they would see that there was an increase. This was after in-depth negotiations with the Minister of Finance.

I want to tell hon members that if we were to examine the funds we obtained, and compare them with those of the other Government departments that have to be funded, we would see the following picture emerging. If we look at the increase in the SAP budget for last year as against this year, we see that it is 28,35%. Last year it was 27,09%. In other words, the increase we had, in comparison with last year, was 28,35%.

If we look at the average budgetary increase in the Public Service as a whole, comparing the estimates for the 1988-89 financial year with the draft estimates for the 1989-90 financial year, we see that the increase in the rest of the Public Service was 17,79%. The point I therefore want to make is that although we have problems and want more funds and manpower, the fact is that we have already received more than the rest of the Public Service and other departments.

*An HON MEMBER:

It is still too little.

*The MINISTER:

The hon member is quite right. It is still too little and we want even more. That is why I initially asked us to take a balanced view of this situation. We must be reasonable, because in giving me more, the hon the Minister of Finance would have only one of two choices. He would have to levy higher taxes. He would have to tax the public more heavily, or he would have to deprive other Government departments of funds and give those funds to us.

We must be fair with one another about this. Hon members made a valid point—as I have said—and that is that we should also look at the social development of people, at the schools, at education and at housing. We must allocate money for all this.

Who of us can tell the hon the Minister of Finance today that he must take money away from the pensioners and give it to the Police, or take money away from the schools or from housing and give it to the Police. Our representations do not fall on deaf ears. They are heeded, and we must be grateful for that fact.

What more are we doing, apart from our representations to the hon the Minister of Finance? We are trying to make policemen available at less cost. The hon member for Rissik referred to that when he spoke about the special constables. They are policemen with lesser qualifications, policemen who do not cost us R17 000 to train.

*An HON MEMBER:

They just shoot!

*The MINISTER:

That hon member says they just shoot. That really is not true. The special constables—from the evidence we have heard here—have done excellent work. Today I want to say that hon members in some of the political parties in this House have contributed to the virtual demise of this project aimed at training special constables. A campaign was waged against these people. A press campaign was waged against these people who work under difficult conditions. [Interjections.]

No, it is not the LP. Let me tell hon members at once that the LP did not cross swords with us. There was the occasional one who also spoke about a “kitskonstabel”, but there was nothing nasty about that.

Under difficult circumstances, in a difficult revolutionary climate, those people were responsible for a dramatic decrease in crime, etc, in some of our Black residential areas. We shall only really succeed in combating crime when we can have more of these people, who are “the bobby on the beat”, which is what we are trying to do.

These special constables do not constitute an ideal solution. The ideal would be for me to have 100 000 policemen, as well-trained as those we already have. Failing that, I prefer to have 5 000 or 10 000 of these people who can help us to reduce the crime rate in the residential areas.

Hon members must support us in this. Hon members must not jump on the revolutionary bandwagon in an effort to denigrate these people because of the mistakes they make. We are not blind to the mistakes they make. This afternoon hon members heard that if their conduct is not what it should be, we take action against them and they are dismissed.

They are charged and they appear in court. We do not try to protect them, and we regret any mistakes they make. I am asking hon members to help us, however, so that we can train more of these people and so that we can silence the propaganda against them.

There is a third thing we can do to help the Police Force, and that is to make greater use of reservists. Let us ask our communities to give us reservists to serve in the SAP. The reservists in South Africa do valuable work. They work thousands of hours per year without remuneration. They are not paid for that work, and they furnish a community service of the highest calibre. Let us get more of them. Let us try to promote this fact in our communities. Every hon member sitting here is a leader in his community. If he would promote this cause there, we could obtain more reservists to help us.

To save money, we put forward another solution, and that involves building cheaper police stations. In consultation with the Department of Public Works we are examining this aspect so that we can stretch the money we have a little and see whether we cannot build more police stations—spread throughout the residential areas where crime has to be combated.

I want to make a further remark in this connection. The hon member for Macassar said that we were facing a crisis. It is really not a crisis at all. It is not that bad. We are in complete control of the situation. Hon members will agree with me that with the manpower at its disposal, the SAP is doing an unbelievably good job. If we see how few people there are and how much overtime they have to work to get everything done, we realise what an unbelievable job they are doing. Were it not for their dedication and sacrifice, the situation would not have been what it is today. Hon members acknowledge that. I want to tell the hon member for Macassar that he need not concern himself. We are not faced with a crisis. We have enough people whom we employ to deal with the situation. I shall give him the figures.

I think the hon member also mentioned the number of members who are resigning and the fact that we cannot fill the posts. Our colleagues are making provision for the fact that every six months we can augment the Force with approximately 5 000 people that we can use. At the end of the year we shall not be able to fill all the posts we have, but at least the Police will not be taking a backward step. I want to give hon members this assurance. There will not be fewer policemen. We believe that at the end of the year, with the policemen we have trained, our figures will still evidence a positive trend. If we were to continue with the project involving special constables, as we are doing at present—and as of now they have had eight weeks’ training—I am convinced that by the end of the year we would be able to send even more policemen into the communities to help us to do that work.

The hon member for Ventersdorp made his apologies for not being here today. I should merely like to reply briefly to what he asked me. I am very grateful for the kind remarks he made. He also referred to trouble that started at Boshoek. He said there were 14 000 people at Boshoek. According to information, there were 3 000. [Interjections.] Someone counted incorrectly. Perhaps we were the guilty party, but we say there were 3 000. We considered the matter before the event and the magistrate also made enquiries about the matter. We spoke to the organisers. They promised us that they would keep the peace there and ensure that there was no trouble, just like the organisers who wanted to have the pop concert at Ellis Park. They also said that they would see to it that nothing went wrong. Here we learned our lesson, however, because trouble erupted. People were seriously hurt, there was stone-throwing and vehicles were damaged. We learned our lesson. In future we shall watch this situation very carefully.

The hon member also congratulated the Police. On behalf of the Police I want to thank him very sincerely for that. He asked for a police station at Boshoek. We shall investigate the matter and see what we can do there.

The hon member for Riversdal made a very interesting speech. He told us a bit about the drying-out process, etc. He spoke about the work the Police did. Somebody sent me a note which I should like to share with hon members. It concerns what happened during the floods and what the Police did:

A farmer trapped on his farm by the flood-waters telephoned the Police and asked whether they knew what five-year-old KWV tasted like when drunk with muddy water from the Orange River. He asked whether they could not give him something else to mix with the KWV brandy. When the Police drove past his farm again, they delivered 24 bottles of Coke. We had no further problems with him.

The hon member for Riversdal said that the tickets issued to White parents attending passing-out parades were paid, whilst those of Coloured parents were not. That is a lie. It is devoid of all truth. There is no such thing. He also said that it was alleged that Whites received a danger allowance when they travelled through Coloured areas. The Department of Transport prescribes a certain allowance which can be paid to policemen if they cannot make use of Government transport. In the majority of cases the people do, in fact, make use of Government transport, and if that is not available, they can receive an allowance. For non-White members, where the need exists, there is Government transport between their places of work and their homes. All members of the Force, however, receive a service allowance. They do not get a danger allowance. All members of the Force receive a police service allowance, which compensates for the element of danger. There is complete parity as far as this allowance is concerned. No one receives less than anyone else.

The hon member for Riversdal also referred to the question of the drying-out process. We have made enquiries in the divisions where this situation occurs most frequently. I want to tell the hon member that we are convinced that the dryingout process is consistently implemented. The implementation of this process becomes more problematic if the existing over-population of prisons is also borne in mind. The enquiries we have made and the research we have done indicate that in the areas and places in which we perhaps apply the drying-out principle more frequently, for example a second, third or fourth time, drunkenness unfortunately increases. In other words, this does not act as a deterrent.

Our approach to this is a sympathetic one. We held discussions about this with the magistrates of the Department of Justice and tried, in conjunction with them, to solve the problem. We are trying to see whether we cannot save the person the R50 or R30 about which the hon member for Riversdal spoke. Now we find that when that happens, the person simply turns up, saying he wants food for the weekend, and he stays there. He knows he is going to be sent to prison on Monday and does not need to pay the R30. This is “free board and lodging”. That is how this sometimes works in practice. There are people who exploit the situation. I want to give the hon member the assurance that we realise that this is a major problem indeed, and that the solution to this fundamental problem is not the drying-out process. It is like a bit of ointment one rubs on a wound.

It is social problem that must be tackled and solved by the responsible departments. We cannot expect the Police to solve it by not detaining people or putting them in jail and bringing them to court on Monday. We adopt a sympathetic attitude towards them. That is the assurance I want to give the hon member. At times things probably go wrong, but I do want to tell the hon member that if someone wilfully makes an appearance weekend after weekend, this complicates the situation, ultimately driving one to despair. Then one can expect such a person to encounter problems.

The Police and the Commissioner take note of the request that we deal with this matter as sympathetically as possible. I should like to give the hon member the assurance that we shall do what we can.

I thank the hon member for George very sincerely for his kind words. He made an excellent speech. He referred to the work the Police do. He refers to us as peacemakers, and that is what we are. The Police I know are not people who love war and violence. It is much nicer for us to work in peace—then we have much less work to do. We do not want trouble. We specifically try to make peace, and he called us peacemakers. He mentioned examples. I should like to tell hon members that one of the men doing soccer coaching for the two gangs in Guguletu is a Coloured man by the name of Bosch. I wish hon members could see how that man enjoys playing soccer. That is the quality of the people we have. What we try to do is aimed at promoting peace and quiet and not unrest, trouble and violence.

The hon member also mentioned better equipment for the Force. I have already referred to this. The environmental and nature conservation to which he referred has tremendously high priority as far as we are concerned. We do not own many properties in which it can be applied, but in consultation with the responsible departments we examine this whole matter, and we want to do things correctly from the very beginning when we develop our present properties. We accord this a very high priority. The hon member also referred to the crux of the solution to the problem, and that is that we must look to the social upliftment of our people. I go along with that.

†The hon member for Tafelberg mentioned the question of drug abuse and that it is very serious. I agree with her. It is a very serious matter. She requested that we look at the drug laws and tighten them up. I want to read from a letter that has been addressed to the hon member, and I quote:

Legislation is at present under review by the Department of Health and Population Development responsible for the administration of the Dangerous Dependence Producing Substance Act in conjunction with the South African Police. Proposals have been made by various State departments to ensure that heavier penalties will be imposed on drug dealers.

*We feel very strongly about that. We shall continue in this vein and see whether we cannot have stronger sentences and penalties, because this is something that could destroy this country and all its people if one did not adopt stricter measures against offenders.

Mr Chairman, with these few words I think my time has almost expired. If you wish to give your ruling, this would perhaps be the right time to adjourn.

Debate interrupted.

The Committee adjourned at 18h31.

PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE—ASSEMBLY Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the Chamber of the House of Assembly at 14h15.

Mr Z P le Roux, as Chairman, took the Chair and read Prayers.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS—see col 6589.

APPROPRIATION BILL (Consideration of Schedules resumed)

Debate on Vote No 7—“Development Aid” and Vote No 8—“Education and Training”:

*The MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND DEVELOPMENT AID:

Mr Chairman, as previously agreed we shall, with your leave, first discuss the Education and Training Vote and then the Development Aid Vote.

With regard to the Education and Training Vote I should first like to express my sincere gratitude to my colleague the hon the Deputy Minister of Education for his loyalty and ability which made it a pleasure to work as a team in charge of this particular Ministry.

I should also like to welcome Dr Bernard Louw as the new Director-General of Education and Training. He assumes this post with professional experience of exceptional quality in regard to all aspects of education. Apart from that he also has exceptional management skills which will serve him well in this new task. I want to wish him every success, especially with the preservation and strengthening of the morale and the motivation of the staff of the department in these difficult times.

At this stage it would be inappropriate to comment on the role of Dr Louw’s predecessors in the department, Drs Fourie and Meiring, because the commission of enquiry is still conducting its enquiries and formal complaints were made or are being considered as a result of the findings in the first report of the commission.

†I should like to devote a few words to the Council of Education and Training. I should also like to express my gratitude to that council, which is at present retiring and is soon to be replaced by its successor council. My thanks to the chairman, Prof Mathiva, to his executive and also to the members of the retiring council for their wise and frank advice to me and to the department. I thank them for their courage and integrity in handling difficult and even dangerous situations, for their positive and dynamic approach towards achieving equality of education opportunities for the Black youth at every possible opportunity and by every possible means, and also for their huge contribution towards restoring stability and normality in the overwhelming majority of schools and areas served by the department.

I am looking forward to meeting the new Council of Education and Training on 16 May. They are constituted as the outcome of a process of democratic elections of representatives of Black parents and communities and also of professional teachers’ associations. This will be the culmination of a step-by-step building up of a new council this year beginning with the election of the new school management councils which came in the place of the former school committees, and then in the local areas committees of chairmen of all the councils in the area concerned. Through their chairmen they are again represented on the regional committees of the Council of Education and Training, and ultimately, the chairmen of the regional committees are representatives on the National Council of Education and Training, together with other members.

This new structure should at all levels really involve the community and the parents in the education process in which, after all, they are partners. It should enable Black education and community leaders meaningfully to influence decision-making on policy and its implementation in the Department of Education and Training.

A logical corollary of constituting this new Council of Education and Training is my ongoing commitment to ensure the promotion and appointment of increasing numbers of qualified and experienced Black educationists to the top echelons of the department. The new Director-General is giving his full attention to ensure just this at the filling of some vacancies anticipated in the near future in senior posts of the department.

Another corollary of this new council is my wish, often expressed before, that the pace of negotiated constitutional reform towards full powersharing, also for Blacks in South Africa, will soon result in my ministerial portfolio becoming the responsibility of a Black political decisionmaker.

*Today I am standing between two opposite poles in this Committee—on the one hand there are factors of disappointment and on the other there are factors of success and joy. There is disappointment about the serious irregularities in the management of the department which have been exposed and which are being further investigated. This damaged the morale of our personnel and our leaders. I sincerely thank the majority of them for the way they proudly hold their heads high and continue with their chosen task faithfully and loyally, purposefully and with even more determination than before.

Another disappointment is, of course, the fact that the economic realities of our country and the necessity of curbing Government spending restrict the ability of the State to expand existing services or even to maintain them at unreduced levels in some cases, as the hon the Minister of National Education explained with open-hearted candour during the discussion of his Vote last week, also as regards funding for education, in particular. After a few years of record growth rates in the estimates for Black education and great progress in the scope and quality of educational services, we had to be satisfied with less spectacular growth in the previous financial year, although Black education was still one of the strongest growth points in the total budget.

Under these circumstances I want to praise the hon the Minister of National Education for the able and determined way in which he continues to make it his task to achieve the best financial dispensation for education, and especially for education for our Black communities.

This year’s overall provision for all education departments is R11,8 billion, which represents 18,5% of the total budget. It is still more than the provision made for the Defence Force, which is R10,3 billion.

The growth as far as the Education and Training Vote is concerned— the specific education part we are dealing with here—represents R311 million this year, an increase of 19%. However, if the estimates for salary increases are disregarded, the net increase is 6%. With a growth of almost 8% in the number of pupils this exerts a great deal of pressure on the Department of Education and Training to determine the priorities among all its urgent requirements, something which is made more complicated by the well-known historical backlogs.

In a more general context I want to say that I trust that the recklessly irresponsible proponents of sanctions against South Africa, at home as well as abroad, will realise that their foolish actions will lead to serious disadvantages for the improved provision of such a basic service as education, especially for those communities they profess to want to help. Our enemies cannot try to harm the South African economy without also harming basic educational improvements.

In contrast with these rather sombre factors, however, I also want to bring to hon members’ attention the continued growth and performance in the work of the Department of Education and Training. We must not allow the disappointments to mar the image of progress, success, dedication and innovative renewal the Department of Education and Training has developed during the past few years. I believe an inspiring history of achievements is again reflected in the latest annual report of the department.

†It is surely no mean achievement of the Department of Education and Training in the seven-year period from 1982 to 1988 to have coped with an increase of over 360 000 pupils. Secondary schools alone accounted for 206 000 of this increase. This is a growth of 83,7% in the secondary school population of the department over the seven-year period. This total growth involved the provision of 1 000 additional schools or other educational institutions and no fewer than 13 700 additional teachers. The job of providing these schools and these teachers would have sorely taxed even the best educational organisation! Let us also remind ourselves that this had to be performed through a three-year spell of widespread unrest and boycotting of schools, accompanied by criminal violence and also very sophisticated subversion. I am proud of a department which under these trying conditions was able to improve significantly both the teacher : pupil and the classroom : pupil ratios, in spite of large backlogs and in spite of the high growth rates in pupil numbers.

In the seven years from 1982 to 1988 the teacher : pupil ratios—this is of course an average for the whole department—improved from 1:43,5 to 1:39,6 in primary schools. In the secondary schools it fluctuated but ultimately remained at the same level as in the beginning, namely 1:32,6. In the same period the classroom: pupil ratios in the primary schools improved from 1:50 to 1:41,9, an improvement of 8 fewer pupils per classroom. In the secondary schools it improved even more satisfactorily, namely from 1:53,8 to 1:38,8, representing an improvement of 15 fewer pupils per classroom. Under all these circumstances I submit that this is an outstanding achievement. I sincerely trust that the more difficult financial situation which we are facing right now will be such that we can handle it without having to go back significantly on the progress which I have just recorded.

*I took the trouble to have another look at the recommendations on priorities at the end of the well-known De Lange Report of 1981— the report contains a list or summary of its so-called recommendations on priorities at the end—as well as at the Government’s White Paper of 1983 about the provision of education, and it is really impressive to note the great progress that has been made with the implementation of so many of those recommendations on priorities, also and especially in the Department of Education and Training. Although this is to a certain extent of greater concern for National Education, it also concerns us very closely.

Firstly I want to mention the establishment of a single central ministry of national education dealing with policy in regard to financing, personnel affairs, curriculae and examinations. I emphasise the expansion of vocational guidance advocated in this report. The establishment of a pre-basic bridging period aimed at school readiness was regarded as a very high priority. Another plea was for the establishment of a better infrastructure for non-formal education, including adult education, and remarkable progress has been made in this field. I am referring to the autonomy granted to higher education to determine its own admission policy with regard to the student population. I am also referring to the national basis of curriculum development which was requested and which the Department of Education and Training promotes and functionalises in co-operation with National Education; the plea for active research with regard to computer-assisted training; the emphasis on the necessity of better schoolguidance services, especially in Black schools, and which can be seen in the progress of the department; the insistence on evaluative and diagnostic services for pupils with handicaps which was implemented in the already-known PIDA panels of the Department; higher admission requirements for teacher training as recommended, which were implemented more than five years ago; a better distribution of teachers’ training colleges; and last but not least, the way in which a start was made with the elimination of historical backlogs as far as education facilities are concerned, as was advocated in this report.

Over and above the recommendations of the De Lange Report of 1981, the Department of Education and Training also started with special investigations and programmes, for example for better rural education and particularly for farm schools; for inclusive in-service training for inadequately qualified teachers; for matriculation of all its teachers, something in which great progress has been made during the past four years; for better management capabilities of educational leadership, something which was identified as a serious lack as long ago as the early 1980s; for better pupil retention in schools, especially at secondary level, in other words a decrease in the school-leaving figure of pupils. This is also one of the reasons for the growth in the number of secondary pupils which I mentioned earlier.

Apart from this the staff of the department also had to learn in the years 1984 to 1986 to be not only educators, but also people who could handle crises when the revolutionary onslaught wanted to make the schools ungovernable and forced the so-called “people’s education” on them. Teachers and educators who were trained for something completely different also had to learn to control unrest and handle youthful rebelliousness and put a stop to it. They had to learn to negotiate on a new level. They had to develop a greater sense of security and they had to intensify liaison with the community considerably.

I therefore ask this Committee to maintain the correct perspective of the totality when assessing the work of the Department of Education and Training and to emphasise the successes and weigh them up properly against the disappointments.

*Mr D S PIENAAR:

Mr Chairman, I shall link up shortly with aspects to which the hon the Minister referred.

The amount of almost R2 billion which the Department of Education and Training is requesting for the 1989-90 financial year is 19% higher than last year. The department’s hefty and comprehensive report is evidence of the extent of this department’s activities and the amounts of taxpayers’ money for which the department is responsible. May the officials of the department be granted the dedication and insight to do their work with distinction. May those officials who strive for loyalty, thoroughness, excellence and irreproachable conduct soon be relieved of a minority of colleagues who have unfortunately succeeded in shrouding the department in a fog of irregularity, misappropriation and self-enrichment.

Congratulations to the new Director-General, Dr Bernard Louw, who assumed the responsibility of head of department under difficult circumstances. May he accept the challenge to develop, but also to put right, with decisiveness. He has our best wishes. The only aspects which actually count against him are that he comes from the hon the Minister’s circle to a greater degree and the impression may be created that he has been called in as a specialist protector of the hon the Minister. We should like to believe that, regardless of personalities and personal and other loyalties, he will follow the way of excellence, for which he has a reputation, and cordial cooperation—with the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly too.

I should like to this take opportunity to express my thanks to the department for an informative study tour in Natal toward the end of last year. It is a pity that the greater part of the visit clashed with the biennial general congress of the CP so that I was prevented from participating fully. I appeal to the department to incorporate consultation on the choice of dates and to determine and announce the dates further in advance.

On the one hand I thank the hon the Minister for replies to enquiries in correspondence addressed to him on various affairs, including the department’s budget memorandum, but on the other hand I have to request that more consideration be shown toward hon members. Preparation for discussing the Vote is not assisted by the availability of the department’s annual report only two parliamentary working days before the debate has to take place. It goes without saying that it is even more difficult then to do justice to a report which obviously took considerable time to compile. By making the report available at such short notice, an impression of ineptitude and perfunctoriness is created, which does not do justice to the contents and extent of the report or the activities of the department.

In the hon the Minister’s reply to my enquiries, two oversights crept in, I think, and I refer firstly to my letter of 8 March 1989—there were two letters of the same date, of which one was answered—which dealt with the implementation of and regulations arising from section 11 (b) and section 18 of Act 31 of 1988, being two of the amendments effected by last year’s amending legislation. They deal with management bodies of Black farm schools on White farms.

You will recall, Sir, that a serious difference on this exists between the CP and the Government. The question is why the two sections have not been implemented and what may be expected when. Can it be that the hon the Minister is now acknowledging that he and the other hon members of the NP dropped a clanger in the joint committee last year and may we look forward to new amending legislation so that the matter can be put right, as the CP proposed last year? The hon the Minister is not to interpret my enquiry as encouragement to implement these sections now, because we are opposed to them. We would prefer a rectification, as we proposed last year.

An aspect which makes speedy handling even more important than the arguments which we have already put forward is the front-page report in Focus on Education, No 11 of November 1988, in which expectations are created which in all probability will be incapable of fulfilment. The report states that amendments to the regulations were effected which inter alia substitute a management body for a school committee. Various other allegations are also made in it. This appears to be contrary to the fact that the sections of the Act concerned have not yet been implemented. I should be pleased if the hon the Minister could furnish his reply in this debate.

The second oversight to which I have to refer is a series of three questions on the numerous enquiries into and arising from alleged irregularities in the Department of Education and Training. I must say that it was really not made easier for me to get answers to these. Hon members will have to judge for themselves whether this was an attempt to create confusion by means of vagueness and dilatoriness and to draw a veil over the extent of the irregularities.

Firstly, I asked in the discussion of the Additional Appropriation Bill on 20 February what the costs of the numerous enquiries included—in other words, what part of the additional funds appropriated had any bearing on the numerous enquiries. The hon the Minister then replied that there had been only one enquiry and that no provision had been made for this in the Additional Appropriation. Of course, this was only partially correct because there were far more enquiries than merely one.

This is why I then made a second effort and wrote to the hon the Minister on 1 March to draw his attention to the fact that, to my knowledge, various departmental enquiries and also the judicial commission’s enquiry were involved. I then requested an explanation of all the enquiries into irregularities or alleged irregularities over the past two years; when such enquiries began and were disposed of; from whom I could enquire regarding progress, and exactly what the terms of reference were in each case regarding those conducting the enquiry.

When the hon the Minister had not replied to me after a reasonable time, in desperation I tried to compel him to do this by submitting a formal parliamentary question for written reply.

From the nature of the case, such a formal question has its limits. It cannot be formulated as broadly and freely as a question in letter form. More than a month and a half after my letter, the hon the Minister replied by letter, dated 19 April, that no provision had been made in the Additional Appropriation for costs attached to enquiries which were made because they were met from available funds. He further informed me that he would reply to the rest of my questions formally.

The first question I should like to ask is from which Vote the available funds which were used in defrayment were obtained because, to my knowledge, money cannot be transferred from one Vote for which it has been appropriated to another. I accept that the hon the Minister had not budgeted at that stage for costs of commissions of enquiry. I also accept that it could possibly be legal; I am merely asking the hon the Minister to clarify it for me.

*The MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND DEVELOPMENT AID:

Does the hon member mean the Vote or the programme in the Vote?

*Mr D S PIENAAR:

I mean the Vote from which the defrayment was made.

It appears from the formal reply to question 265 that only three enquiries had run to nearly R56 000 for the account of the State by 7 April 1989, excluding the Advocate-General’s costs which are unknown. Indirect costs owing to loss of man-hours or productivity and material and equipment have obviously not been included.

This reply which refers to only three enquiries and not to any resultant enquiries comes nowhere near reflecting the actual position. I then tried to draw up an explanation myself but I doubt very much whether it is complete. At the moment we have at least the following enquiries into alleged or proven irregularities in the department which have been disposed of, are pending and arising from:

  1. (1) The Advocate-General’s enquiry into the Ivis Video System;
  2. (2) the judicial commission of enquiry into the Ivis Video System, printed material, youth courses and any other misappropriation of State funds;
  3. (3) Mr Du Plessis’s enquiry into youth courses;
  4. (4) the State Tender Board’s enquiry into improved procedures;
  5. (5) the Commission for Administration’s enquiry into improved tender procedures;
  6. (6) the Committee of Education Ministers’ renewed enquiry into computer co-ordination;
  7. (7) the HSRC’s evaluation enquiry into the cost-effectiveness of the Ivis Video System;
  8. (8) the HSRC’s enquiry into the department’s policy and implementation of computer-assisted education;
  9. (9) the Commission for Administration; and
  10. (10) the State Tender Board’s enquiries into the composition and functioning of the department’s management advisory committee on computerisation and the commission’s Directorate: Data Systems;
  11. (11) the Attorney-General’s enquiry into the conduct of Dr Fourie;
  12. (12) the Commission for Administration; and
  13. (13) the Treasury’s enquiries into a possible reinforcement of requirements as regards contracts between departments and their officials’ families, as well as a possible code of ethics;
  14. (14) the enquiry into steps against Dr Meiring in terms of the Public Service Act; and
  15. (15) according to the hon the Minister’s press release on 16 February 1989, an extra-departmental expert evaluation of the effectiveness of educational printed material which was bought in bulk.

I suggest that the hon the Minister did not reply correctly as regards the second part of question 265 because this expert evaluation is surely intended to fall within the cadre of outside consultants. Whatever the case, we have to add the enormously long list of enquiries which are in progress departmentally and about which we know little. Can hon members imagine how many enquiries will arise from the further report or reports of Mr Judge Van den Heever.

We live in a world of irregularities and enquiries. There are at least fifteen enquiries and that merely at this stage of those enquiries.

The hon the Minister can probably give birth at any time to further enquiries. Perhaps we should rechristen the hon the Minister of Education and Development Aid the hon the “Minister of Enquiries”. Nevertheless the tragedy is that, amid all these enquiries, the most important enquiry has not yet been instituted and that is an enquiry into the hon the “Minister of Enquiries” himself. Does the hon the Minister not think that such an enquiry is justified under the circumstances?

In the first place, may I ask the hon the Minister in all seriousness what his reaction was to Barlow and Degem’s letter of dismay to him, which is referred to on page 54 of the Van den Heever Report? I shall quote paragraph 13:

Barlow and Degem stuur ’n kamma-koper na Learning Technology. Wat aan hom vertel is, laat Barlow en Degem onthuts skryf aan Minister Viljoen.

I think that was in 1985.

The question is what the hon the Minister’s reaction was to this, exactly what Barlow and Degem’s letter contained and what the hon the Minister’s reaction was in view of the fact that at the time he was already aware that there were competitors to Learn Tech and that Learn Tech, in co-operation with the department, was involved in activities of the alleged nature.

The hon the Minister’s reply is very important because the next question is why the hon the Minister informed Von Keyserlingk of Finansies en Tegniek in writing in 1986 that the department itself was developing interactive video by means of local expertise. I shall quote paragraph 20 on page 55 of the report:

Fourie stel die Minister se antwoord aan Von Keyserlingk op, waarin gepraat word van interaktiewe video en programmatuur deur die Departement met plaaslike kundigheid en volgens eie behoeftes ontwikkel; wat die Minister onderteken.

Why did the hon the Minister make such a statement? What did the hon the Minister already know about Learn Tech, the so-called local expertise? Was he already prepared then not to take Barlow and Degem into account as a competitor in spite of their letter of dismay to him a while back? Was the hon the Minister aware of the large-scale problems which had already been experienced with the Ivis System for months on end in 1986? If he was, what did he do about them? If he was not aware of them, when did he become aware of them for the first time?

Judge Van den Heever found that little had been achieved with the Ivis System during the two and a half years since it had been commissioned. Did the hon the Minister ever enquire about this? Where such huge amounts of money were involved and so much was at stake for Black education, the hon the Minister must have followed the project with interest.

How does the hon the Minister explain his defiant attitude toward Von Keyserlingk in March 1987? I quote from … [Interjections.] Unfortunately this is a very important questionnaire and the hon member would do well to read the report so that he can develop some appreciation for the questions which he apparently does not understand very well now.

Paragraph 29 on page 57 of the report reads:

Mnr Von Keyserlingk het ’n goeie indruk op die lede van die kommissie gemaak. Willem Fourie het geskimp dat sy artikels oor die aankoop van die Ivis bereken was om die Nasionale Party op die vooraand van ’n verkie-sing in die verleentheid te stel. In die voile besef dat hierdie getuie nie hieromtrent ge-kruisvra is nie, is ons mening dat daar nie waarheid in so ’n suspisie steek nie. Von Keyserlingk se verduideliking van hoe dit gekom het dat die artikel van 13 Maart 1986 in Finansies en Tegniek verskyn het, oortuig en word gestaaf deur die korrespondensie. Hy het aanvanklik belang gestel in die gevolge vir Swart onderwys van sanksies teen Suid-Afrika. In die loop van navraag daaromtrent gedurende Januarie 1986 …

By the way, I have just referred to the hon the Minister’s reply to this—

… is hy meegedeel dat, verre daarvan dat die Departement van Onderwys en Opleiding lamgeslaan is, interaktiewe video reeds ge-toets word, met kursusware deur die departement opgestel. Die feit dat interaktiewe video gesofistikeerde en betreklik onbeproefde teg-nologie was, het hom nuuskierig gemaak. Verdere ondersoek het gelei tot skinderstories uit verskeie oorde, van baantjies vir boeties. Daar was ook gerugte van vertraging van die bevordering van rekenaarondersteunde onderwys wat kon geskied het deur die aankoop van ware wat reeds beskikbaar was. Daar was gefluister dat doelbewus voete gesleep word om aan die wat beoog is vir bevoordeling die geleentheid te gun om hul produk bemarkbaar te kry. Von Keyserlingk het ’n onderhoud met die Minister aangevra. Hy is aangesê om sy vrae by voorbaat op skrif te stel, uit hoofde waarvan hy by die onderhoud beskuldig is van laster. Met die onderhoud, waar drr Fourie en Meiring die Minister bygestaan het, het dr Fourie ontken dat sy seun betrokke was by Learn Tech, op sterkte waarvan Minister Viljoen Von Keyserlingk gedaag het om seker te maak van sy feite voordat hy aantygings maak teen die amptenare van die Departement van Onderwys en Opleiding.
Die uitdaging is feitlik noodgedwonge aan-vaar. Von Keyserlingk het dokumente uitverskeie oorde versamel, wat geen twyfel gelaat het nie dat Willem Fourie wel betrokke was by Learn Tech en dat gepoog is om hierdie feit van die buitewêreld te verberg. Daar was dokumentasie wat die afleiding geregverdig het dat die Departement van Onderwys en Opleiding betrokke was by die skepping deur Learn Tech van kursusware vir gebruik deur die Departement. Inderdaad was Fourie ver-antwoordelik vir die konsep-antwoord (wat die Minister aanvaar het deur dit te onderte-ken) waarin juis gese is dat die Departement programmatuur ontwikkel met behulp van plaaslike kundigheid.

In the light of this, is it unfair to ask what caused the hon the Minister to act so strangely at this stage? How many more warnings did he have to receive that everything was not as it should be and why was he antagonistic toward Von Keyserlingk? One is tempted to say that the hon the Minister’s sound judgement left him in the lurch.

I now want to refer to Judge Van den Heever’s finding that Dr Fourie and his son, Willem, agreed to lie and to confess. The question is why the hon the Minister, already confronted with Von Keyserlingk’s facts at that time, did not himself become aware of it? What was the hon the Minister’s reaction to Willem’s confession on the evening of 10 March 1987? At this stage it appears from the reports of the Advocate-General and Judge Van den Heever only that the hon the Minister requested Willem to inform his father, Dr Fourie, about his confession. Is that all the hon the Minister did, however? Did the hon the Minister inform the Advocate-General of Willem’s confession? [Interjections.] Did he inform Dr Fourie about it? Why did the hon the Minister not summon Dr Fourie the same evening of the confession or immediately on the following day and, in the presence of both father and son, clarify the matter? Why did the hon the Minister not demonstrate his determination to avoid any trace of corruption at that time?

What did the hon the Minister do about the matter in the course of a full year in which the Advocate-General investigated the matter? Why did he not object to the fact that Dr Fourie still retained full control of the department as Director-General? Why did he retain the wolf to act as the shepherd, even after the enquiry had already been ordered? Why did the hon the Minister not suspend Dr Fourie from service temporarily? Why, even after the Advocate-General’s report on 14 March last year, was the hon the Minister prepared to accept an excuse and to retain Dr Fourie as Director-General after the Advocate-General had found that Dr Fourie had shown extremely poor judgement and had been guilty of shamefully not revealing his son’s involvement with Learn Tech to the hon the Minister after he had therefore, according to Van den Heever, lied to Von Keyserlingk about his son’s involvement with Learn Tech? What prevented the hon the Minister from avoiding the appearance of evil? Is it not a reflection on the hon the Minister’s sound judgement that he did not regard any further action as necessary at that stage and later opposed the standpoint of the entire Joint Committee on Public Accounts, as well as that of his own hon MP colleagues, and refused a parliamentary enquiry by all the political parties but did a somersault the next day and, firstly, gave heed to Dr Fourie’s request for early retirement and, secondly, agreed to a judicial commission of enquiry? Why did the hon the Minister then permit Dr Fourie to go on early pension so that action in terms of the Public Service Act was made impossible?

And Dr Meiring? The Advocate-General found that he had issued a certificate of misrepresentation and he had not even, according to the hon the Minister’s statement of 29 March 1988, apologised for this. Why did the hon the Minister then not only retain him in a position of control in the department but accept him as acting Director-General as well after the judicial enquiry had been appointed? This is the second wolf who was appointed as the shepherd.

After Judge Van den Heever found with justification that he had told untruths and that the hon the Minister had announced that, pending investigation in terms of the Public Service Act, he would be appointed to a post of a suitable grade elsewhere in the Public Service, the hon the Minister kept him in the department.

The hon the Minister then again revised the action he had initially announced and first sent him on compulsory leave—again another line of action from what the hon the Minister had announced. Does the hon the Minister realise how many unanswered questions remain which, in the time at my disposal and after weighing up the interests which one would have liked to discuss under this Vote, I simply cannot even get to?

Is it unreasonable then if I ask the hon the Minister if he does not form part of the problem rather than of the solution? Did the hon the Minister’s action not specifically cloud matters throughout rather than bring them to a head? I ask the hon the Minister in all seriousness to consider resigning in the national interest. It is not in the interest of Black education, which has to resist the onslaught of radicals daily and is shrouded in a fog of corruption, to be burdened with the hon the Minister’s ineptitude and irreparably damaged image. If the hon the Minister himself does not realise that, for the sake of the principle of ministerial responsibility and for the sake of the parliamentary system itself, if he wants to honour it, he should vacate his position, it becomes the duty of the hon the State President or the hon the Leader of the NP, whoever is currently in control, to bring that realisation home to the hon the Minister.

I hesitate to say this because it is a poor second choice but, if these two hon gentlemen cannot get through to the hon the Minister, the only alternative is for the hon the Minister to declare himself prepared to give evidence before the Van den Heever Commission. Is the hon the Minister prepared to do this? The hon the Minister has good qualities but effective political control of a state department is not one of them. We shall therefore oppose the Vote.

It would appear that I have some time left. I want to start by referring to introductory comments on this department’s Vote, No 8. They deal with the number of pupils at school. In the memorandum, the number of pupils is indicated as approximately 2,1 million for 1989. According to press reports, the South African Teachers’ Association gives a figure of 8 million by 1990. This is a clear contradiction and it is difficult to accept that the figure of 2,1 million could rise to 8 million by the end of next year. [Interjections.] A recent newspaper report stated that the point had now been reached at which half the Black population was under 18 years of age. If this figure is taken into account, a figure of 8 million Black children at school is not far-fetched. [Time expired.]

*Mr G M E CARELSE:

Mr Chairman, listening to the hon member for Potgietersrus really made me very weary. All the hon member did was ask questions, but the question I want to ask him is whether he has nothing positive to contribute to Black education. Has he nothing to contribute? To stand there struggling to find reasons to place the hon the Minister in a vacuum of suspicion …

*Dr W J SNYMAN:

He had good reasons. [Interjections.]

*Mr G M E CARELSE:

It is difficult to understand how one can dedicate one’s whole life to negative aspects. [Interjections.]

*The CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE (Assembly):

Order! The hon members for Pietersburg and Nigel can keep their excitement in check for a while. The hon member may continue.

*Mr G M E CARELSE:

In the first place I want to thank a certain gentleman, Mr Meiring, for the contribution which he made to the Department of Black Education in spite of the mistakes he made. In him we had a man with special abilities. If we could utilise his material in our departments, we would, if we had the opportunity, utilise it immediately. [Interjections.]

I want to congratulate the new Director-General, Dr Bernard Louw, on his appointment. I hope that he will make a success of the whole matter.

This immediately brings me to my prepared speech. Black education happens to be in the favourable position that the two hon Ministers in charge are both members of the NP. This facilitates the process of persuasion on their part, and if they come forward with innovative proposals they are accepted more easily.

The hon the Minister is also part of the NP caucus which commits itself to the same discipline. On the one hand this makes it easier for them, on the NP side, to be trusted in the position, and it creates a greater direct representation for Black education within the NP caucus. On the other hand they are often regarded in Black ranks as White NP Ministers who cannot always be trusted and who have to implement NP policy. That is why the two hon Ministers have a very sensitive task on their hands.

Their success with Black education is the only mechanism with which they can inspire confidence in their efforts. Those successes must be closely connected with Black aspirations. It is in this light that I appeal to the hon the Minister and the hon the Deputy Minister. I notice a wonderful renewal in Black education when it comes to contents, organisation and incentives and the elimination of backlogs. I notice that, but I miss the very important political component and that is the orientation role between Whites and Blacks that has to be fulfilled in Black education.

To restrict Blacks and Whites to separate streams, is not the solution. No matter how successful we are in the purely pedagogic objectives, we must bring our population groups closer together.

Within Black ranks separateness will never be accepted as the true solution. The Black people in this country have a deep-rooted conviction that a single education system is the only basis on which the South African community will be able to do justice to itself. We cannot change that. One cannot change a person’s convictions and beliefs.

I realise that we are not the only country that has problems when it comes to education, but when it comes to the implementation of solutions, we all want to be involved and want our aspirations to be taken into account. That is very important. In South Africa we have reached the point where people want to get together—they have that urge—and therefore we must avail ourselves of the opportunities. I want to request that the hon the Minister and the hon the Deputy Minister apply themselves with greater earnestness and compassion to their roles in this field. We must not allow the opportunity to make this gesture of goodwill to float down the stream, because it could happen that such an opportunity will disappear.

Furthermore the people in Black education must also think further than merely within the parameters of today and tomorrow. We must allow the focus to fall pro-actively on the kind of citizen we shall need in future. We must start thinking about them pro-actively. We must also be free in those thoughts. We must not allow the problems of the moment to restrict us to confined movement. That we must not allow.

As a result of the fact that the hon the Minister and the hon the Deputy Minister are both connected to the NP, I believe that they can play a decisive role in this respect. They can start stimulating free thinking in the NP in this respect. They can do it.

Outside education there are also other factors which stifle the characteristics of goodwill and the desire for a good relationship in our Black compatriots. These are things that definitely have a negative influence on all our positive attempts and that are going to influence the Black generations of the future. I ask these two hon gentlemen to use their influence in the NP to abolish the fears that exist.

Furthermore I may not omit to congratulate the hon the Minister and the hon the Deputy Minister on their attempts to restore Black education to the community. It is well-known that parental involvement is increasing at Black schools. This is an excellent plus factor, that must never be evaluated superficially. I have no doubt that the hon the Minister and the hon the Deputy Minister have, until now, been striving for equal and sufficient education for all. I can only say that their efforts must have been efforts that were closely related to the successes achieved. The proof is evident from their successes.

What I also want to emphasise is that we must bear in mind that we must apply education in an honest way—and I stress the words “honest way”—with a view to a new South Africa of tomorrow.

*Mr P G MARAIS:

Mr Chairman, what a pleasure it is to speak after the hon member for Berg River! Needless to say I do not of course agree with everything the hon member said. Nevertheless he put his case to us in a calm and reasoned way. He at least compelled us to listen to him with attention and interest. Seen from his point of view he was positive and constructive, and I want to testify today that that is also how I have come to know him as member of the joint committee, on which that hon member always makes a sturdy contribution.

I want to make only one observation with reference to the arguments the hon member raised here. As in previous debates the hon member referred again to the need for us to strive for a single education system for South Africa. South Africa has a single education system. [Interjections.]

Mr R M BURROWS:

I definitely knew you were going to say that! [Interjections.]

*Mr P G MARAIS:

By now we have argued this matter repeatedly here. We have separate executive departments, but South Africa has only one education system. Whenever an opportunity presents itself I think we should bring a motion before one of the Houses and thrash out this matter thoroughly once and for all.

Here at the very outset of my speech I should like to associate myself with other hon members and also convey my sincere congratulations to Dr Bernard Louw on his appointment as Director-General of the Department of Education and Training. There is no doubt that he is preeminently equipped—academically and otherwise—to lead this important and difficult department as its administrative head. When Dr Louw was a boy of 16 or 17 years I was a frequent visitor, as a young man, to the home of his parents, and I can testify that they too were very distinguished people. I should like to wish him everything of the best in the performance of his important task.

Dr Louw’s appointment was preceded by the departure, under unfortunate circumstances, of certain of his predecessors. One of them was Dr Dirk Meiring, who deputised as Director-General. The circumstances of his departure at present still form the subject of a disciplinary enquiry.

I shall always reproach myself if I do not state here today that my relationship with him in my capacity as chairman of the Joint Committee on Education was always pleasant, and that I was always able to learn from him. In this connection I think I am speaking on behalf of most if not all the members of the joint committee. Whatever may happen in future, milestones in the history of this department were erected which will always bear the inscription of Dirk Meiring. For that I owe him a debt of gratitude.

The situation in connection with the unfortunate circumstances to which I referred when I was speaking a moment ago about Dr Dirk Meiring has been discussed several times in Parliament this year, inter alia by the hon members for Cape Town Gardens, Potgietersrus—he referred to it again today—and Barberton as well as the hon member Dr Zach de Beer. On 21 February the hon member Dr Zach de Beer rose to his feet here to raise this matter in a speech of which the Hansard report covered scarcely half a column— rather surprising for the leader of a party! He demanded that the position of the hon the Minister be reviewed inter alia, because the Advocate-General had allegedly criticised the department—please note, the department—so severely. Of course the Advocate-General did nothing of the kind. The Advocate-General dealt with the conduct of certain officials and not with the conduct of the department.

In this way the hon member Dr De Beer, as was also the case with many other hon members who have raised this matter, demonstrated by his conduct that what was really at issue was mere political opportunism. He wanted to gain a minor political advantage, and consequently he did not convince anyone.

His colleague and follower, the hon member for Cape Town Gardens, had already referred the previous day—and I am quoting what he said— to “constant, repeated and wide-spread problems of maladministration and in certain cases of alleged corruption” in the department. That was once again a gross exaggeration, for let us examine the personnel structure of the department.

I observed the following in the annual report. Last year there were 10 980 administrative personnel members and 56 189 teachers. This gives us a total of 67 169 people who were in the employ of the department. If one considers the few cases, which are now being raised virtually ad nauseum, of misdemeanours and of possible malpractices committed in the department, and one weighs them up against this large number of officials and other personnel members working for the department, then what is being discussed, seen in the context of the whole, is in fact insignificant.

Any private enterprise anywhere in the world would be grateful to be able to have a record such as that of the department. Seen as a whole, what happened does not in the least look like wide-spread problems of maladministration and corruption. In fact, it compels me to convey my sincere congratulations to the hon the Minister and his department. It is difficult to manage such a department because it has great complexities. I want to congratulate them sincerely on the efficient administration of the department. I do this without any reservation, on the basis of the facts which speak for themselves.

In a specific way the contribution of the hon member for Potgietersrus today was also a compliment to the hon the Minister and his department. The hon member for Potgietersrus devoted most of his speech today to an analysis of the reports of the Advocate-General and the Van den Heever Commission. He then following this up with a series of questions. He had just about nothing to say about the activities of the hon the Minister and his department.

Once again this was done in the first place for political reasons, but secondly it was a testimonial to the scope and the standard of the achievements accomplished by the department. In reality the hon member for Potgietersrus, whose approach is that of never being positive, but always critical, had nothing to say today.

I want to state categorically here today that the hon the Minister’s conduct in the department is such that, instead of expressing criticism, I want to affirm in public my admiration for him, the hon the Deputy Minister and all the officials for their dedication and the wonderful results they are achieving under the most difficult circumstances. I do not have time today to do justice to this, but I shall try to give hon members an idea of the magnitude of the challenges facing the department.

Last year the number of pupils in the department grew by 152 727. According to the best White standards these are enough children for more than 254 large schools with 600 children each, and all that happened in only one year! Even before the children turned up at those schools, there was already, with relation to the optimum pupil : classroom ratio, a deficit of 4 753 classrooms in the Black education that falls under this department. It would have cost R420,8 million to build those classrooms. For the additional pupils— the 152 727 to whom I referred—an additional 4 053 classrooms were strictly speaking necessary, which would have cost R351,6 million to build. I say that is what it would have cost, because the hon the Minister and his department can only dream of that kind of money.

The hon the Minister needs R772,4 million to eliminate backlogs and to make provision for the new scholars. R772,4 million! Of that amount he received only R188 million from the budget. That was R584,4 million too little. All that happened, therefore, was that the backlog increased. Many of those who criticised the hon the Minister today would have given up in the face of such an awesome challenge, which is so much greater than the financial means of the country could have coped with even in the best of circumstances, but not this hon Minister and his department.

Let us see what happened. At the beginning of 1989 seven of the department’s regions experienced problems in admitting all applicants to schools. In fact there was not a single region that was able to accommodate all applicants in the existing school buildings. For that reason special steps had to be taken. One of these is the so-called platoon system, which is applied in two ways. For example the school building is used by one school in the morning with its own teachers and by another school in the afternoon, or certain classes attend a school in the morning and the others in the afternoon.

How grateful should we as Whites not be today for the facilities and privileges we have in our education! Nevertheless there are people who say that the Government is doing everything for the Black people only. How vehement would the protests not have been if White communities in this country had been expected to let two schools share one school building! How would we not have complained if the backlogs which one finds in Black education had built up with us?

Many extraordinary measures are necessary in Black education. Finishing schools are now being built for Black pupils who failed the Std 10 examination, in order to help them with their studies. There are already six in Johannesburg and two in Cape Town. All of this is work that was done while the hon the Minister, under difficult circumstances, also had those specific problems in his department and was constantly criticised unfairly in respect of the few isolated incidents that occurred.

Pupils who have failed two or three times, as well as over-age pupils and applicants who have not attended school for a year or longer are placed in centres for adults. This is a unique system or method devised by the department which is being very beneficially applied. Pupils for whom there is no room in a school are placed on a waiting list. In spite of all the apparently insurmountable problems all of those who were on the waiting lists this year in Johannesburg had been accommodated by 10 March. In Cape Town the last 200 on the waiting list were accommodated during the week 6 to 10 March. Similar tales can also be told in respect of the other regions. These are remarkable achievements. These are remarkable achievements for which we in South Africa will never be able to thank the hon the Minister, his hon Deputy Minister and the Department enough, because this work was done in the interests of the future of our country. This is an achievement, particularly if one takes into account that pupils in Johannesburg, who dropped out the previous year owing to unrest, have now begun to return in large numbers. This in itself was already an achievement.

In Cape Town another exceptional achievement was accomplished, if one takes into consideration that 300 secondary pupils from the Trans-kei and the Ciskei applied this year. It so happens that these pupils had serious problems with their choice of subjects, and yet it was possible to accommodate those children in the interests of the education of the communities of South Africa.

This department cannot be entrusted to weak-kneed people. These kind of challenges require people with courage, faith, dedication, perseverance and the ability to think innovatively and act enterprisingly. The hon the Minister, his hon Deputy Minister and the senior officials, whom I know, are such people. South Africa owes them a great debt of gratitude and appreciation for the work they are doing.

If all the achievements of the department had to be enumerated, the time allotted for this debate would not have been enough. The excellent and very informative annual report of 474 pages is a record of achievements from beginning to end.

While I am speaking about school buildings and I still have a little time at my disposal, I just want to mention that in 1988 1 927 additional teaching locales were built under difficult circumstances. I think this is an achievement which cannot be equalled anywhere in the world. Twenty-two existing schools were renovated and upgraded. Security fences were erected around 14 schools. A new technical college was built in Soweto. Technical colleges are under construction in Witbank, Bloemfontein and Kwa Thema. All these things were done with limited financial resources and contribute to a wonderful achievement.

The department tries in any event to act as cost-effectively as possible. At the moment investigations are being carried out. Consultation teams have been appointed with the instruction to design four primary schools. One of the consultation teams was the building technology division of the CSIR. Those schools are at present being built in Vosloorus, Daveyton, Kagiso and Mamelodi. Even before tenders were received it appeared as though a saving of approximately 25% could be effected in this way. This is enterprising work in the interests of education, and the best utilisation of the very limited resources. This is an excellent initiative for which the department also deserves praise. When the building work has been completed the results will be evaluated by educationists as well as construction experts.

I want to conclude by saying that in many respects—some of my colleagues will also demonstrate this here today—this department is ahead of all other education departments in South Africa, an example of this being this initiative of cost-effective utilisation of scarce capital. There is probably no education department anywhere in the world which could have done better under these circumstances than these people are doing. I thank them for it and I sincerely wish them everything of the best.

Mr P I DEVAN:

Mr Chairman, at the outset I would like to compliment the hon the Minister, the hon the Deputy Minister and the department upon the noteworthy improvements in a number of areas of Black education. I am sure that the history of education in this country will one day record that the appearance of the hon the Minister Dr Gerrit Viljoen on the Black education scene has meant so much to so many people in this country.

These improvements are all the more significant when seen against the constraints imposed by the policy of education in this country. They are also significant when the progress in the past seven years is seen against the historical backlog, nay, the complete disregard shown to Black education in the past.

I must acknowledge that there has been progress in a number of areas though there are backlogs and setbacks in other areas. I cannot agree more with the statement in the report that to produce adequate, qualified teachers to meet the demands of a growing school population, remains a challenge.

The department is aware—I am pleased to emphasise this—that the calibre of teachers in schools will determine the quality of education. Places available in White and Indian teacher training colleges have not been used to advantage, and I think that this is something that should be deplored. At a time when the demand and the cry for education are so loud and clear, and when there has been a very clear indication that one of the main setbacks in Black education is the need for qualified teachers, I think it is hard-heartedness to allow those places in training colleges to remain vacant when they could have been used with expediency for a very useful purpose.

I would like to suggest that in the not too distant future a compromise will be reached on the problem of colour discrimination in this country. While that will be achieved, I fear that a problem of far greater concern is the Third World situation in South Africa, with well over two thirds of this country’s population in this category. This is the thing that should concern us. This is why we should see education in relation to this Third World population. To formulate a system of education that will meet the challenge of this Third World situation is the test before us.

What we want in South Africa is a man-making education, an education that will transcend the trivial limitations of separate and fragmented education. We want a recipe for this kind of education, but I have to say that we have not got this as yet. There is an education for Blacks, an education for Whites, an education for Transkei and an education for KwaZulu, but sadly no education for South Africa, and that is the tragedy.

If the Whites want an education in which the group ideology is the most important determinant, and if they are obsessed by this feeble ideology, it is a great pity. We do not want to condemn them for it. We would rather say: “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

The Blacks, the Indians, the Coloureds and the Whites want a system of education to really weld a South African nation. If that is not done, then the Black, Indian and Coloured members of the population will devise a system of education that is common to those three groups. It can be done. If it cannot be done for certain ideological or political reasons, it does not augur well for South Africa and its progress in future.

In Switzerland, language-wise, there are German-speaking, French-speaking, Italianspeaking and Romansch-speaking people with one system of education. There can be differences within the ambit of a system of education. I say we want such a system of education, but we will provide for the cultural and ethnic differences—in fact, each school can provide for them. In all things let us be like the hand, but in things that are culturally or ethnically different let us be like the fingers. Then I think we can put the hand to good use.

Last month an advisory board was launched by the KwaZulu-Natal Indaba. The galaxy of persons, some 24 of them, who formed the core at that meeting are probably the best in the country. In a short but well delivered message, Dr Oscar Dhlomo had this to say:

This is not the talk of a revolutionary, but of a man who recognises the extraordinary potential of a nation bound together by common cause and common destiny, a nation whose commercial and industrial capacity can be unlocked by a workforce educated and trained to take their rightful place in the economy rather than stand empty-handed on the sidelines.

He goes on to say:

First, I wish to appeal to all the members of the Advisory Board on Education, to concerned educationalists everywhere, and most particularly to the political leader of this country, to take the politics out of education.

The sad symptom in our education is that it is politicised and then people outside politicise it in different directions.

Lastly, and in the same message:

The launch of the Advisory Board follows widespread concern that Natal’s fragmented educational environment fails to address the realities of a rapidly changing multicultural society.

There are many other thought-provoking statements tersely put in this address.

The other day the hon the Minister of National Education made reference to the 10-year education plan and the “finance for education”. The thoughts he expressed regarding these two aspects were somewhat pungently received in the outside world. That this should happen in a country where education has become so sensitive and at a time when people are reaching out to one another and when education, above all, concerns the youth of this country! I agree that there are problems in education but let us also agree that these problems are not insurmountable. I want to emphasise that the problems existing in education are political and economic ones. Therefore, if the political and economic problems are resolved, those problems in education will vanish overnight. The policy-makers should note that it is obviously necessary to admit that there is no point in sitting down and saying that there is no money. The necessary money and means will come if there is a will to really mould education for all the people in this country. That is something that we will have to do in the future.

Mr K M ANDREW:

Mr Chairman, in this particular Vote we have a budget of nearly R2 000 million, there are nearly 8 000 schools falling under the Department of Education and Training, some 56 000 teachers, over 2 million pupils and an annual report of 474 pages. To discuss these things I have ten minutes available to me. [Interjections.] It is obviously impossible to give a full and balanced evaluation of Black Education in these circumstances and one can only hope to focus on a couple of major topics and conclusions in this regard.

Firstly, let me congratulate Dr Louw on his appointment as Director-General and wish him well for the years ahead. Secondly, I would like to acknowledge another comprehensive annual report that we have been given. I can understand why it was later than usual this year but hope that we will be able to revert to getting it earlier as we normally have in the past.

I must also note—although I do not plan to elaborate on it but it would be very strange not to mention it— the fact that since last year’s debate, we have had a Director-General and two Deputy Directors-General removed from their posts or changed in disturbing circumstances.

This is the last debate on the Education and Training Vote of this particular Parliament. Since one does not know what is going to happen between now and the next Parliament, and who will be here, and in what capacity, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the hon Minister and his Deputy Minister for at all times having been accessible, courteous and enjoyable people to work with or against, as the case may be, depending on how one chooses to define it.

Education is of vital importance to economic, social and political success in South Africa. The President’s Council’s report on employment creation said:

Basic formal education can make a contribution to economic growth.

The President’s Council’s report on productivity says:

… achievement-orientated education is in fact an essential element for future productivity growth and the achievement of high standards of living …

Clem Sunter in his famous book said:

… the foremost characteristic of a “winning nation” has to be the quality of its education system.

Education for Black children is falling far behind what is required if South Africa wishes to be peaceful and prosperous. I do not intend to apportion blame or even analyse the causes because I do not have the time. I wish simply to suggest that we have an educational crisis of massive proportions on our hands and we need to acknowledge it if we hope to resolve it.

Considerable efforts have been made in recent years, and I gladly acknowledge that, but let us not blind ourselves to the nature and extent of the crisis in the DET school system. I would like to look at some indicators of the crisis.

Firstly, matric results. In 1988, 41 812 pupils wrote the exams. Only 52% passed and 14% received matric exemption, compared with the White system where 69 549 pupils wrote the exams, 96% passed and 42% got matric exemption. Of those 41 812 Black students who wrote matric in 1988 at DET schools throughout South Africa, only one student obtained an “A” aggregate and only 45 received “B” aggregates. This is fewer than one of half a dozen or more White schools in the Cape Peninsula obtained on their own out of matric classes of about 150 pupils.

South Africa suffers from a dire shortage of highly qualified people to sustain economic growth. We desperately need academic achievers and most of them are going to have to come from our Black population. What is happening? Of Black children who get to write matric—and we all know that is quite a small proportion of the school population—only nine out of every 1 000 achieve matric exemption with a “C”aggregate or better. By comparison, 265 per 1 000 White matrics get a “C”aggregate or better.

The broader picture is even more horrifying. At present a Black child in South Africa is more than a 100 times less likely to obtain a “C” aggregate with matric exemption than a White child.

One can also of course look at quality from a non-statistical point of view. Let me take just one example, language competence, and a sympathetic report on Medunsa in which it is commented:

Few students arrive at Medunsa with a good command of English …All first-year students therefore spend several hours a week learning how to understand spoken English, how to analyse the content of written or spoken English, and how to speak it better themselves …

The second indicator I wish to look at is physical facilities. I provide three examples. Orlando West High—

… one of Soweto’s oldest schools, has had no electricity for five years. The principal uses a tiny cubicle attached to the library as his office—and the school’s sole administration centre.
The almost 1 400 pupils, 200 more than the school should hold, sit in dark, unlit, overcrowded rooms.

If we look at the DET high school at Sandkraal in George, we see that despite the fact that there are now an average of 58 students per classroom, that the number of students at the school has nearly doubled in three years, and that no additional classrooms have been provided at the school during the past three years, no date has been set for the provision of additional classrooms.

The hon the Minister says that this is because of “other higher priorities elsewhere”. I do not dispute that but one is forced to wonder what the position at other schools must be if they are seen as higher priorities.

A third example is a primary school here in Guguletu, Cape Town, of many years standing, at which the lavatory facility is an open trough over which the small children, including preschool children, have to crouch in appalling conditions. The school is not due for renovation or upgrading in 1989.

A further indication of the education crisis is the department’s inability to recognize problems, for whatever reason, or to get to the facts. Guguletu Comprehensive High School was a school which had certain troubles last year. Complaints and concerns were passed on to the hon the Deputy Minister and he undertook to have the matter investigated. This he did.

An inspection panel visited the school and amongst other things reported that: Co-operation between pupils and staff is outstanding; with a few exceptions, teachers are performing well throughout; effective education is taking place in this school; healthy discipline amongst teachers and pupils exists; and the school ranks among the top five in the area, judging by the performance of the teachers.

I wrote to the hon the Deputy Minister on 30 November in response to his letter and said that I had had the opportunity of seeing a copy of the inspection report of the school. My letter read further:

While I accept that there are invariably at least two sides to every story, I quite frankly despair at the gulf as I see it between the Department’s perceptions and what is actually going on.
For example, I have every reason to believe that for most of this year …

That was 1988—

… the first two periods of each day as well as the periods after the lunch break were effectively abandoned because there were not enough children present in the classes. Against this background (and this is just one specific example), to read the glowing reports about the school and the quality of education made me gasp with disbelief.

That is what I wrote to the hon the Minister. What was the position when the matric results came out? There were 56 children in that matric class, of whom only 13, or 23% passed, which places that school in the bottom three in the area. Only one pupil achieved a matric exemption, which was the worst performance in the whole area, although the inspection panel had said that it was amongst the top five schools in the area.

These are some of the symptoms of the educational crisis which must be acknowledged. The hon the Minister of National Education’s announcement last week on education funding clearly indicates that the crisis is likely to worsen.

At the very least, we need a major conference involving educationists, Black community leaders and interested organisations, the private sector and the Government to review the situation and to seek ways out of the impasse in which Black education finds itself.

*Mr J G VAN ZYL:

Mr Chairman, I would like to see the greetings of the hon member for Cape Town Gardens as a confirmation that he is on his way out. It was good to know him. I know that that hon colleague tried very hard to be the representative of Guguletu at the same time, but perhaps the reason for his departure is the way in which he represented Guguletu.

A second thing which completely baffles me, are the facts which he quoted with regard to the matric results of 1988. Co-incidentally, he and I have worked on the same theme and I will try to give those facts as I understand them from the annual reports. It is very easy to make an example of a situation which was heavily influenced by the irregularities and assaults of the time, as if it represented the situation in education throughout South Africa. I think that to try to do that, is the most serious offence which one can commit.

The Department of Education and Training is an agent under the auspices of the Department of Education and Culture of the Administration: House of Assembly. The st 10 exam of 1988 alone was written by full-time students in 84 subjects in 116 question papers. Furthermore there were private candidates in 70 subjects in 111 question papers. In terms of this assignment, the Government Printer was responsible for 3,5 million question papers which had to be printed on a paper mass of 330 tons and packed in 4 000 containers which had to be sent to the different centres where these subjects were written. [Interjections.] This indicates to one the extent of the massive task which this department had throughout South Africa in order to conduct the 1988 matric examination, and I am only talking about matric.

These 4 000 containers were distributed by the regional offices under a very strict security network. There is a full-time security team of 30 members to ensure that all orderly arrangements with regard to the writing of this examination are applied. A total of 7 000 markers were appointed in seven marking regions on a decentralised basis. I find it interesting—I am mentioning these facts in the face of the attack on the so-called cheap standards under which Black people have to write their matric—that in each of these subjects a chief examiner and a moderator were appointed, just as in White education. After each question paper had been compiled, the moderator along with the regional chief markers in each subject spent two days holding a trial run by means of random samples taken from all seven regions, with regard to the memorandum which would be adhered to in the marking of the question papers.

The chief marker was assisted by a controlling marker in each region in each subject. There is a controlling marker for every five markers, who has to check one out of every five question papers to ensure that the same standard is being maintained. At such a place, a subchief is also appointed who has to take a sample test of 10% to ensure that the same standard is being maintained by every marker in the same subject throughout the region. These raw scores are graphically sent in and the graph of this data are then referred to the ogiving committee concerned, which reads these standards against the standards which were attained during the previous five years. This is done to ensure that the standards which are attained in this examination, are on a comparable level with regard to those which preceded it. When one goes through the work of this department in this field, one gains an impression of the considerable problems which still exist at this level of Black education.

I read somewhere that a prominent figure in our history said that 50% of one’s knowledge is obtained in one’s own home culture. I wonder how many of us are aware of the massive backlog which has to be made up at this level and what background problematics exist in this education when we speak lightly about correcting it with a single education department and when all people have free access to any school. [Interjections.] It is not as simple as merely implementing an equalisation process and thinking that one will thereby sort matters out.

A second problem which touches one’s heart, is the question of the acculturation problem in education. I wonder how many people are aware of the problems which these people experience in moving from the level at which they grew up, to the point at which they write an examination in a second and often a third language. The question arises as to how many of the causes of the so-called failures which lie on the road, do not arise from the fact that they do not have the right to write their examination in their home language and whether, if they could do that, many of the problems would not be solved.

What really makes one’s heart go out to the department, is the realisation that there are 2 million Black candidates, the so-called private candidates, who write their matric in an interrupted fashion in a great variety of subjects over a long period of between two and four years. The only way in which the department can deal with this is to store the subjects which they have already obtained in a computer and to wait until the particular candidate knows that he has met the requirements to be certified. Such a candidate can then apply to have this computerised data combined and the certificate of his choice issued. When such an application arrives at the department, the data, however, lies in a massive storeroom and is very difficult to sort out other than by hand.

This is the cause of many of the delays which exist with regard to matric results. When one encounters these facts, one realises how unfair the criticism often is of the department when these matters are not up to date and are not readily available.

This department has been extremely successful. Of the 1988 matriculants 98 000 or 57,8% passed. A total of 27 865 or 28,4% of them obtained matriculation exemption. What is interesting is that in the non-urban centres the standards of education per centre were higher than those in the urban centres. There are schools— the hon member for Cape Town Gardens would do well to listen to this—which obtained a pass-rate of between 90% and 100% in the same matric question paper. It is simply the case that there are places which have more rounded off, better trained, more experienced education personnel in a culture of experience of examining and marking. At this stage they have already succeeded in obtaining a 100% pass rate in matric in a school. That really took some doing, in view of the short period in which this department has been tackling this task. We want to congratulate them on that.

This shows that this occurred in areas in which an uninterrupted education programme was in progress, where these children were not interfered with or forced to take part in boycotts. They were also not disturbed in their programme in preparation for their matric examination.

A third impression which comes to the fore here, is that the self-governing states and the BVC states adhere to the same standards. They adhere to the full programme and the evaluation process as offered in South Africa by the Joint Matriculation Board.

I want to conclude by expressing my infinite gratitude to the hon the Minister, the hon the Deputy Minister and the department at this stage, for the hard work which, if we look back over the years, they have put into education and for the standard of work which we can be proud of and which will yield only greater and better fruits in the future.

The LEADER OF THE OFFICIAL OPPOSITION (Representatives):

Mr Chairman, I want to add my congratulations to Dr Louw on his promotion to head of the department of this particular portfolio.

I have a few minutes and I want to say at the outset that I and the hon members of the Official Opposition in the House of Representatives will support this Budget Vote—we have no reason not to.

The tremendous achievements in this vastly complex department cannot be denied. When words of criticism are directed at this department, please accept that this in no way detracts from the tremendous achievements that have taken place—for this in particular the hon the Minister himself deserves most of the credit.

I want to confine myself once again to the question of the report of Judge Van den Heever’s commission of enquiry which was tabled early in March this year. All of us are aware of the shockwaves— the first of a series I suppose— which rolled through the Department of Education and Training following this report.

Perhaps the most important lesson learned from the sequel to that report is that some senior officials must not believe that the departments they administer are their private domains to be run without regard to prescribed procedures, and that also the best interests of the community which the department serves must always be the yardstick with which to measure and determine the activities of officials in the service of that community.

In this particular case, where irregularities were disclosed, viz in connection with the use of the computer in education, I want to express my deep concern about the tragic effects of what happened upon the children of South Africa. It is here that the reprehensibility of the actions of the officials concerned is most acutely to be observed.

Vast numbers of Black pupils—in fact those in all the primary standards in Black schools—have, for the past three years at least, been deprived of a crucially important learning aid, viz the computer. Had things been handled correctly, the computer would have been in use to an effective degree in these schools by now, with all its concomitant benefits for the pupils. In the light of the latest news from the hon the Minister of National Education that funds are being drastically cut, the possibility that the present generation of Black primary-school children will never see a computer, let alone work with one, is a foregone conclusion.

What are we talking about, Sir, when we talk about computers in schools? Is it a so-nice-to-have gadget which falls into the luxury class, and which we can well do without? Is it an item which can be crossed off a list without seriously affecting education when budgets have to be cut? Too many people believe this. The truth is that the computer, as an educational aid, particularly in our circumstances of vast numbers of underqualified teachers and an unsatisfactory teacher: pupil ratio, aggravated by a rapidly growing school population, is as indispensable in the modern classroom as the telephone is to the man in the street, and the computer as a teaching aid, used by the pupils themselves, must not be confused with computer literacy and computer science, which are subjects on their own designed to equip students with skills directly related to employment opportunities in the labour market.

We are looking here at a method, far beyond anything dreamt of before, of teaching the child to master—I emphasize “master”—in the very first place, the concepts and operations of the science of mathematics at a rate which field tests have proved to be quite remarkable. A hundred percent increase in proficiency in mathematics by pupils fortunate enough to use the specially designed computer over a short period of time is a conservative figure. Far better results have been recorded in field studies. Despite large classes the productivity of teachers is increased tremendously by the use of this aid.

Why am I giving so much attention to this one particular subject of mathematics in our schools, despite the tremendous advances taking place in other spheres of education, particularly in relation to our Black community? South Africa must develop, in the shortest possible time, the necessary skills amongst all its people that will make it possible for us to break through into the world of advanced industrial nations such as Taiwan, South Korea and other Pacific Basin nations if we wish to survive and continue to grow as a developing country with a view to becoming a First World society in all respects.

In short, Sir, we have to ensure that modern technology in all spheres takes root and develops in South Africa, and the basis of all technology— of all science, in fact—is mathematics. It is man’s destiny to master nature. In fact, it is a biblical injunction. But this will escape South Africans if we do not lay a firm foundation to achieve this mastery. It was not for nothing that Galileo said that nature was a book which could only be understood through the language of mathematics.

Our education is far too academically oriented. This has now become a truism in South Africa. If our country is to develop as it must to save itself from mediocrity and permanent backwardness, a massive shift of the order of at least 60% in the direction of technical and career-orientated education must take place. All this can only happen if a huge effort is mounted to give our education a new direction along the lines indicated above. Investment in the most modern aids to rapidly increase educational output, is a dire necessity and must be given priority treatment. Budget priorities must now be radically rearranged to meet this demand.

The time is now also long overdue for a Black Minister to be put in charge of Black education. The present incumbent of that portfolio, the hon the Minister, Dr Viljoen, has himself strongly recommended that this should happen. When it does, many Black educators will be very unhappy to lose this hon Minister for whom they have nothing but praise. I know him to be a formidable champion of educational growth and the upgrading and expansion of the service he heads for the Black community. It will take a very able individual to replace him. The appointment, however, of a Black Minister of Education is a vitally necessary step along the road of reform. It will be absolutely clear evidence of the Government’s commitment to bring Blacks into the highest organs of decision-making.

Those of us inside Parliament who shout “tokenism” will be accused of double standards when we ourselves are more than happy to accept similar ministerial positions, and deputies to boot.

I notice that the hon the Minister has also at some time expressed himself positively on the question of alternative or people’s education, as it is known. Of course, generations of Black South Africans cannot continue, and no doubt will not continue, to move into the future having to accept an image of themselves as being less than first-class citizens of South Africa. It is in this regard that alternative education can make a valuable contribution to forming the new South Africans. Important historical and cultural material must find their place in the new education of our children. [Time expired.]

*Dr W J SNYMAN:

Mr Chairman, if there is one Government sector which is regarded with great suspicion and impatience by the taxpayers of South Africa, it is this hon Minister’s department in particular.

The degree of irregularity which occurred and the way in which the hon the Minister dealt with it must leave much to be desired. I think the hon member for Potgietersrus illustrated this and brought it to the fore in a very effective way today. When the voters of South Africa set their tax liability against this, taking the increased cost of living into account, the price rises and the impoverishment, then I think that this hon Minister has a great deal to explain to the voters of South Africa. In fact, the hon member for Barberton was quite right when he advised the hon the Minister preferably to return to academia where he was a great success and also achieved great success rather than to remain the hon Minister for his portfolio which shows only a dark picture to South African taxpayers.

If we look at the Auditor-General’s latest report, for instance, we see the following losses of the hon the Minister’s department indicated on page 94:

Losses, R1 517 083.—According to information furnished by the Accounting Officer, losses written off during the year with Treasury or delegated authority amounted to R1 517 083 and include—
  1. (1) R1 038 231, in respect of stock and equipment resulting from burglary, theft or fire damage in 425 cases; and
  2. (2) R294 744, in respect of stock deficits discovered during stock-taking at the Ga-Rankuwa Hospital.

I want to know from the hon the Minister whether these matters have been cleared up yet. I want to put it that a few years ago, as recently as last year, it was the express policy of the Government that parity had to come within 10 years regarding opportunities and the per capita expenditure on education for all population groups in South Africa. The then caretaker MP for Pietersburg and the former Minister of Manpower said the following, for instance, at an NP function last year:

Die per capita-spandering vir Blanke onder-wys is ongeveer R3 877 per jaar.

If we look at the demographic forecast on how many Black children there will be in 10 years’ time, it is 10 million. This would mean that, at the end of that 10-year period which the hon the Minister and the hon the Minister of National Education envisaged, it would be costing the State R38,7 billion. This is a totally unattainable situation. The hon the Minister of National Education has conceded now that it can no longer be attained or envisaged.

I should like to know from the hon the Minister what the Government projection now is in this regard, when parity is to be attained and to what degree the per capita educational allocation of the Minister of Education and Culture in the House of Assembly and his funding of education has to be reduced and by how much it will have to be reduced to be able to reach this ultimate objective. There are fundamental questions which have to be answered, especially regarding the acute shortage of funds as far as the administration of the Minister of Education and Culture in the House of Assembly is concerned.

I want to get to a further matter which I regard as even more important. That is the question of regulating the various communities in South Africa, in which the activities of this department and the hon the Minister very definitely have a most important part to play. I am speaking, for instance, about the positive implementation of the amendment to the Education and Training Act of 1979 which was piloted through Parliament by the hon the Minister last year. This has already proved in practice to be a mechanism which gives rise to undesirable situations.

Last year we put our standpoint very clearly in the debate on this matter because it affects the basic principle of the CP’s ethnic policy. The hon the Minister was also a firm supporter of this policy formerly. The implementation of the new principle of this legislation is giving substance to the Government’s scrambled-egg policy as Black communities which are concentrated around Black farm schools must of necessity develop into towns within White rural areas in South Africa. It is just a year ago that this debate took place and I should like to quote what we had to say about it. I shall quote from Hansard, 9 March 1988, col 3321:

I want to ask the hon the Minister what his ultimate goal is in amending this legislation …

The hon the Minister referred in his speech, for instance, to the fact that room should be made at schools for clinics so that clinic nurses could do their rounds on Saturday mornings. Church services should be held there and sports facilities should be developed so that the entire community could take part in these activities in rural areas at weekends.

We expressed it as follows, and I quote from Hansard, 9 March 1988, col 3322:

Consequently they are actually going to develop new Black towns in remote spots.

In addition, we made this categoric statement in this Chamber:

That side of the House is holding out the prospect of new Black towns in rural areas of our country.

The hon member for Barberton said by means of an interjection:

It is part of their orderly urbanisation.

What was the hon the Minister’s reaction to this? In his reply, the hon the Minister addressed himself specifically to the hon member for Potgietersrus and me when he had the following to say (Hansard, 9 March, 1988, col 3337):

Now they are acting as if the utilisation of the school by the general community will suddenly lead to the establishment of a new town there. This is absolute nonsense and a distortion of the truth.

That was the reply which the hon the Minister gave us.

It is just a year later. Let us examine the situation now. The hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development made the following important announcement in the last minute of his reply in the debate on that Vote. It affects Black schools too and I quote him:

Farm workers are now going to be afforded the opportunity to obtain a residence servitude on their farms.

I assume he means on their employers’ farms—

The Council for Population Development will release the details shortly. I have made arrangements with the South African Housing Trust. This is going to cause a revolution in farm housing, because in this way the farm worker will be able to accumulate capital and obtain a better house. This is being financed by the South African Housing Trust. The first farm town will be constructed in the Ceres area.

Die Burger of 20 April 1989 reported it as follows:

Volgens dr Van Niekerk behels die planne dat in die geval van ’n plaasdorp, ’n aantal boere ooreen kan kom oor die stigting van so ’n dorp en benewens hulle huise, ook geriewe soos klinieke, kerke, winkels en ’n skool opgerig kan word. Die werker kan hier ’n geregi-streerde eiendomsreg verkry.
*Mr D S PIENAAR:

The CP was right again.

*Dr W J SNYMAN:

I now want to ask the hon the Minister whether he agrees that the CP was quite right.

*The MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND DEVELOPMENT AID:

About what?

*Dr W J SNYMAN:

About the situation regarding the development of Black towns in White rural areas.

*The MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND DEVELOPMENT AID:

We are trying the system … [Interjections.] … It is incredible.

*Dr W J SNYMAN:

The hon the Minister told us last year that it was not true that such development would take place. It was branded as nonsense.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND DEVELOPMENT AID:

[Inaudible.]

*The CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE (Assembly):

Order! The hon member may proceed.

*Dr W J SNYMAN:

I must assume from this speech that the ultimate consequence will be that Black towns will be found in rural areas of South Africa. The CP’s prediction has come true. I did not expect it to take place within the confines of a year. [Interjections.]

What is the CP’s standpoint? Our standpoints regarding Black education are that it should also be people-orientated and that it should be offered within the community context as far as possible so that that educational ideal may be realised with a sound interaction between school and community. Surely that is an accepted scientific principle of education. I want to ask the hon the Minister whether in principle he is in favour of the fact that Whites may be admitted to Black schools or that Shangaan children may be placed in Pedi schools.

*An HON MEMBER:

Is there more?

*Dr W J SNYMAN:

I ask the hon the Minister whether he will permit this. I should like to hear the answer because I find it unnecessary, wrong and unacceptable that Venda children, for instance, are admitted to provincial schools in Pietersburg under the protection of the Diplomatic Immunity Act. The hon the Minister can tell me now that it is not relevant under his Vote but applies to the Diplomatic Immunity Act, etc.

There are parents who live vast distances from schools. We represent parents who live much further from our schools than Pietersburg is from Venda. Owing to exactly the same educational principle, we do not permit them to attend the nearest Black farm school. [Interjections.]

Would the hon the Minister approve Whites being admitted to those farm schools?

The NP does not yet have the right, by means of a mandate, to integrate voters and voters’ children in schools. It will have to wait until September before it proceeds with this standpoint and this policy.

*Prof S J SCHOEMAN (Walmer):

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure for me to be speaking after the hon member for Pietersburg. He concluded his speech by kicking up a little political dust here and saying that we could not allow integration in schools, apparently referring to the Black children in Pietersburg’s provincial schools. That is not the policy of the Government at all, but a matter which is being allowed in totally different circumstances, with regard to arrangements which exist for foreign representatives.

However, although this may be repetition, I just want to congratulate Dr Bernard Louw on his promotion. I would like to do this because I have been acquainted with him for very many years. Our paths have often crossed in the past in the CUP, in the Department of National Education and now, it seems to me, here again. He is a man whom no one is going to protect—I can assure hon members of that—and the person in whose sphere of influence he is now moving, fortunately does not need any protection either. I wish Dr Louw, an extremely capable man, every success in the post to which he has been appointed.

I would like to talk about the work of the department’s Directorate: Educational Auxiliary Services. In White schools and throughout the whole Western World, support is given to the so-called behaviourally disturbed child. This behavioural disturbance can have various causes, inter alia lower intelligence, social deviations and learning handicaps; I am thinking of dyslexia. It is easy to teach in a totally homogeneous community, in other words, if all the children are exactly the same, but the heterogeneity of a class causes problems in the sense that if all children are not on a par, provision must be made to assist those pupils who, as a result of disparity, are on a lower level than or behind the others—that is to say, those who deviate from the norm—to return to the norm.

In a monovalent culture it is very easy to speak of a more or less uniform situation and the only deviation which one then finds is actually only the degree to which one is endowed with intelligence, but when one has a plural cultural situation, or what is termed a polyvalent culture, the matter becomes far more difficult.

In our White culture we have polyvalence and we have this to a far greater degree among the Black people, where one has groups which have become virtually totally westernised, the unattached group which no longer actually belongs to a culture, as well as the tribal group in which people are still bound to the beliefs of their ancestors.

We may not underestimate the role which culture plays in the problems which arise in the classroom. But what is culture really? One’s culture is actually those things in which one believes, which one places a high value on, that which belongs and does not belong and how one does things and does not do them. Even the way in which one handles one’s cutlery, is a part of one’s culture.

When one is dealing with a polyvalent situation, it is true that problems can arise, and that in comparison with the privileged group there can be the question of backwardness. In comparison with that group, which represents the norm, there can be deviation. Provision must accordingly be made for this type of behavioural disturbance and deviation which can arise as a result of the polyvalence of cultures, and this is what the Directorate: Educational Auxiliary Services is trying to provide.

Under the leadership of this Directorate a model has emerged which is known as the Pida model— the panel for investigation, identification, diagnosis and assistance—which provides a multiprofessional group of people to schools to deal with learning problems, behavioural disturbances, deviation and so on.

In dealing with these cases, the parents are used and included as far as possible in the help which is given. Of course, this corresponds to a very good educational principle. The problem which the child has in the classroom, is usually not a simple one. It is actually multidimensional. Because it has many facets, it is true that a panel of people who have to provide this assistance, must actually be inter-disciplinary in their training. There must therefore be a number of disciplines which come together and it is in their interdisciplinary functioning that the diagnosis of the problem and the ultimate assistance must be provided.

The trained personnel who are used on these panels, represent people with the following expertise, namely people who are able to do psychometric and edumetric testing and are able to provide assistance on those grounds, people who can provide counselling and can give remedial help in the face of handicaps, people who can provide orthopedic help and people who can provide socio-pedagogic help.

Because experts in this field are obviously scarce and there are not many of them, the training of serviceable and selected personnel must of course have a very high priority in this Directorate. It also happens therefore that personnel members of the educational auxiliary services are continuously involved with the in-service training of selected personnel and the writing of manuals and the structuring of modules which are then made available to the schools.

During 1988 the training of teachers as psychotechnicians was started in co-operation with Medunsa, in order to include them in the psychometric and edumetric actions of the panels at the various schools. This action is of course a prerequisite for responsible diagnosis of all kinds of problems with regard to the ability, scholastic achievements or failure, aptitude and interests and ultimately with a view to the choice of possible subjects and directions of study. With regard to choices of profession it is very important that trained personnel should deal with these in conjunction with the children.

In conjunction with the abovementioned, I can mention for interest’s sake that in the course of 1988 an individual intelligence test which was suitable for the Black people, was produced for the first time after years of research in cooperation with the HSRC. However, we must be very careful not to think that this is an intelligence test which tests something other than the intelligence test which is used for Whites. An intelligence test presupposes a certain milieu in the sense that what is being tested, must actually be found in the child’s milieu, that it it significant to him and that it is not a totally foreign world with which he is confronted in this intelligence test.

Of course, language is a particularly important factor in such an intelligence test. Unfortunately it is true that this intelligence test is only available in the home languages of Zulu and Xhosa at the moment, but it will hopefully be made available in North Sotho and Tswana in 1989.

As I have very little time at my disposal, I just want to bring the following to the attention of hon members, namely that psychometric and edumetric tests have been done on more than 191 000 students or pupils with a view to providing assistance.

Pida panel members and other remedial advisors rendered assistance to more than 12 737 pupils with learning and other problems who could not be helped by the class teacher. A total of 1 252 teachers were involved in remedial education by means of in-service training. A total of 1 398 personnel members received in-service training with a view to the improvement of orthopeda-gogic skills. Parent aid programmes were provided to 1 370 teachers by means of in-service training. In order to be able to offer counselling in an effective way, a total of 1 446 teachers were provided with training. [Time expired.]

Mr R M BURROWS:

Mr Chairman, I will not be following the hon member for Walmer and the arguments he has put forward on polyvalency in education. However, I do wish to comment on the speech of the hon member for Brentwood and congratulate him on a good speech. I trust he paid copyright fees to the hon member for Umfolozi whose speech of last year he appeared to use vast chunks of. Congratulations!

It would also be remiss of me if I did not comment initially concerning Dr Dirk Meiring. I got to know him well on a personal level in the department and I wish to express my regrets that he found himself in the position that he did and trust that his career in future in the Public Service will be a promising one.

I wish to focus particularly on the funding of education, initially on the funding formula and then the 10-year plan. The hon the Minister will be well aware as we all are that the key principle of education in South Africa is that found in the National Policy for General Education Affairs Act, which reads as follows:

That equal opportunities for education, including equal standards of education, shall be strived after for every inhabitant of the Republic irrespective of race, colour, creed or sex.

This is the key principle of the De Lange Commission. All other principles flow from that one and, as I indicated, it is enshrined in statute as the aim of all education departments of this country. It is therefore the aim also of this education department.

We have had in the past week a clear indication from the hon the Minister of National Education that there is a funding crisis. He used the words himself: “Education is in a tight spot.” Initially I would like to focus on the funding formula.

The hon the Minister of National Education has indicated that the funding formula has been in use for at least two and probably three years in funding the education departments. I have focused attention on that formula, both in the Department of National Education’s as well as in Education and Culture: House of Assembly’s, Votes. I would also like to do so in this Vote and ask directly whether this hon Minister is satisfied that progress is being made in the realization of the aim of equalization through reaching 1 in the A-factor in the funding formula. I would like to know whether this hon Minister can give clear indications as to whether this department is satisfied in that regard.

Secondly, is this department satisfied that its funding for 1989-90 has kept pace both with inflation and with the increase in teachers’ salaries over the past year, which in all cases will amount to 23%? It is perfectly obvious in the light of the hon the Minister of National Education’s step back from the 10-year plan that the real increase declared 3 years and 4 days ago of a 4,1% real increase will not be achieved this year. That appears to be quite clear.

In fact the Minister of this department made it quite clear last year on 4 May, Hansard, col 8734, that he tied the 10-year plan to the economic growth rate. He pointed out that sanctions and disinvestment were—

… having a restrictive influence on the Government’s declared intention to reduce the existing imbalances in education as far as possible and to eliminate them wherever it is able to do so, in accordance with the 10-year plan. The country’s ability to expand and improve its educational services is therefore being directly influenced by the economic onslaught against the RSA.

I want to ask how this gels with the fact that the receipts of personal taxation last year rose by 27%, which was way above inflation, as did the income from GST into the revenue of the Treasury. I have a close feeling that what we have here is obfuscation. We are having the blame placed on the economic growth of South Africa, where in fact the income into the South African Treasury has increased tremendously.

I would also like to raise a point made by the hon the Minister in his speech last year when he pointed out that—I believe it was correct to point out— the expansion of education and the training of manpower is an important factor in promoting the country’s economic growth rate. The hon member for Southern Cape pointed out that in previous times we, with reference to the De Lange Commission Report, mirrored ourselves on South Korea or Japan, countries which gained their progress through education.

However, I regret to say that the speech of the hon the Minister of National Education appears to have put a damper on this. If I may quote from the hon the Minister’s speech, he says:

If economic growth does not improve, the clients of education …

Particularly this department’s clients—

… are expected to grow at an annual rate of approximately 3% more than the available resources for education will do over the next few years. This will give rise to a decline in the resource provision per client from a base which education already perceives as weak.

I would like to ask this hon Minister directly whether his department is going to suffer more because of the cuts in education.

Once again I quote from this speech, where he says:

Education will have to make a contribution. We shall have to provide better education with fewer resources per client.

We then come to the explanatory memorandum of this department, namely the memorandum on Vote 8: Education and Training, and I refer to the fourth paragraph:

As a result of the general curtailment in government expenditure for the 1989-90 financial year, steps had to be taken in order to keep the Department’s budget within the amount allocated. Unfortunately rather drastic curtailments had to be effected on projects, which of necessity will negatively affect the effectiveness of education, for example career education, rural education and the provision of teachers and classrooms.

What is this hon Minister saying to us? Is he saying that there will be a drastic problem in his department in the coming year because of finance, because that is what I read here? What does he mean when he says that there will be a negative effect on rural education? Will less funds be provided?

I would now like to turn to the funding of the self-governing states and query whether the funding of the self-governing states and their education departments has in fact kept pace with the department’s provisions within the South African state itself. What is their financial provision? We have the extraordinary situation in areas which abut on self-governing states where, for example, in KwaZulu pupils are being turned away from KwaZulu schools in order to go to DET schools in neighbouring areas, along with all the problems which that brings, particularly in the area of politics. The hon the Minister will be well aware of what I am addressing. We need to know in detail.

I believe that if this hon Minister will indicate why the funding of education is being cut back for his department—this we read here quite clearly—then there will be some understanding. Simply to leave it in the dark, however, makes matters very difficult.

Lastly, I would like to put in a word for pre-primary education and ask the hon the Minister to enunciate clearly his department’s policy as far as this is concerned. I read in the departmental report that the number of teachers in pre-primary education in the self-governing states has increased by 57%. This is magnificent, but in the DET it has increased by 1,3%. Pupils in pre-primary schools in the self-governing states increased by 45% and in the DET by much less than that, namely 6%. Clearly there needs to be some explanation as to why the self-governing states can be following the pre-primary route, but this hon Minister’s department is not doing so.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND DEVELOPMENT AID:

[Inaudible.]

Mr R M BURROWS:

The hon the Minister’s departmental report.

The final point which I would like to make concerns the tour of the department’s facilities which took place towards the tail-end of last year. I must say that whilst is was pleasurable to visit the facilities themselves and in fact to be entertained royally on that tour I must raise the problem—I have raised it with the hon the Deputy Minister in writing—of the Plessislaer Technical College and the events which surrounded the termination of hostel facilities for students two days—it was one or two days—after we had been through that facility. It appeared to me from reading both the document with which the hon the Deputy Minister provided me as well as the press reports that a much higher degree of sensitivity was required in that situation, particularly vis-à-vis the community itself and the need for facilities for students, many of whom had come from far outlying areas. We were in fact introduced to students who came from Namibia or from the far Northern Transvaal. To have their hostel facilities summarily terminated two weeks before examinations seems to me to have been the height of insensitivity.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION:

We have rectified that.

Mr R M BURROWS:

I am glad it was rectified but it was a pity it happened.

Mr A K PILLAY:

Mr Chairman, I firstly wish to congratulate the hon the Minister of Education and Development Aid, Dr Viljoen, and the hon the Deputy Minister, Mr Sam De Beer, on their sincerity, dedication and service to Black education.

Black education in this country has been sadly neglected. Over the past three centuries education for the Blacks was taboo; even in the 1970s there was a reluctance to develop Black education. In the past five years the progress in Black education has been unprecedented in the history of this country and the future looks bright. If one looks at the period from 1987 to 1988 the Black school population increased from 1 901 189 to 2 051 546, an increase of 7,9% in one year. With the increase in the population we foresee greater demands.

The hon the Minister’s announcement of the new councils and the participation of parents and communities on the local, provincial and national levels is most welcome. I believe very strongly in parent participation for the uplift-ment of education among the Blacks. I am hopeful for the future because the department has embarked on a programme for the provision of both primary and secondary schools, teacher training institutions and both full-time and part-time technikon education, among other positive contributions towards upgrading Black education. This change of heart is most welcome and that is why I say the future looks bright. Talking of the future, we have to look towards the future in getting the maximum improvement possible in Black education. Anybody who says that Black education can be overhauled within a matter of a couple of years is mistaken because it takes time to develop a child from primary school level to secondary school level. That takes some doing. That is why I say that I am hopeful and that the future looks bright.

Whilst the Government is embarking on a massive education programme it must be mindful of the fact that educated people will look forward to better employment opportunities, better living conditions, secure home conditions and family security and stability. I would like to quote from the statement of objectives of the Department of Education and Training:

To guide and assist the children of the Republic of South Africa with care and efficiency to develop towards responsible and meaningful adulthood by means of innovative, purposeful education which is suitable to the child and relevant to his life-world.

Relevant to his life-world could also mean a decent home life. Black children are like any other children—there is no difference between them. The Black child’s desires are the same as any child’s desires. I will illustrate this very simply: If a White child is eating an ice-cream and a Black child is looking at the White child eating the ice-cream, he will have the desire to have it and if he does not get it due to his circumstances it will cause a lot of resentment. In a similar way the provision of education should be just as good as for a White child.

Therefore the department will be faced with new challenges. The demand for sophisticated learning will increase, there will be new challenges to cater for the increasing population and we must face all these facts with realism. Man cannot live with education alone. Education must be followed by economic stability and social uplift-ment. Denial of this economic and social upliftmen t and mobility will lead to political upheavals and political upheavals will lead to political agitations, and this could be disastrous. I am not being very pessimistic, I am not looking at the future with doom, but we have got to realise here and now what the future of this country and the future of the population that we are developing has to be. If any man seated here cannot see that then I am afraid we are heading in the wrong direction.

With education comes wealth and wealth determines the quality of life. Wealth also influences the sense of values. Life becomes purposeful, meaningful and worthwhile and hence there will be respect for law and order—a measure of responsibility. If this is denied, then education means nothing although we appreciate all that is being done.

Some hon members have said that this is a massive educational crisis and they quoted the matric results. I too quoted the matric results but I do not wish to contradict the hon members concerned and their apprehension. It is good to warn us now.

What we need to do is to start at grassroots level and educate that child so that his matric results will be good. I am given to understand that the Black child comes to school, he starts off with his vernacular—Zulu, Sotho, or whatever it is—and after Standard three he goes on to English or Afrikaans. He is working at a tremendous disadvantage and he still has to write the same matriculation examination. I think on second thoughts—although I blame the Ministry for the failure of 71 000 or 42% of Black matriculation students—we have to give them some time to avoid rushing these children too quickly and too soon.

I am hopeful that the present standstill in economic growth will not last for ever. I see an economic upsurge in the near future. Great interest is being shown by overseas countries— besides America which has been disinvesting in and boycotting this country. I see a great future for the manufacturing of finished products using the available raw material in the country. If that is to become a reality then there is going to be a great demand for skilled and semi-skilled labour in this country. We do not have to go overseas looking for labour, we have got it here. With educational programmes envisaged and planned now we will develop our own skilled and semiskilled labour force. We might have to import a few skilled technicians but that is not an excuse to bring—as was previously done—a whole lot of immigrants to this country. Therefore it is imperative that more technikons be built and that together with the existing technikons we embark on a programme of education in the technical skills.

Young people must be prepared and equipped with the necessary knowledge and skills so that they can be productively employed in commerce and industry. This is one of the big challenges which we face in this country today. Many authorities have already commented on this need for technical education and the improvement of skilled labour in the country, and we have a vast reservoir of schoolchildren on whom we can draw in this regard, especially among the Blacks, who can fill such posts after the necessary training. Everybody needs training, more particularly those people who are completely ignorant.

I wish this hon Minister and his deputy every success in their programmes, and I hope they remain long in this department so that they can carry out the programmes which they have designed.

Mrs R JAGER:

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to follow upon the hon member for Merebank. It is also a pleasure to join him in his concern about excellence in education. I should, however, like to refer back to the hon member for Pinetown, who pointed out that it was important to educate in order to achieve an economic growth rate and that better education had to be provided for fewer clients. He also emphasized the importance of pre-primary education.

What I want to talk about is the bridging programme in the field of pre-primary education, which has been launched by this department.

*The Department of Education and Training has an enormous task and a phenomenal challenge to provide education services to all the Black pupils of South Africa and the self-governing territories, within the limits of the Budget. The department must therefore work systematically on the upgrading of primary education, as that appears to be one of the highest priorities when it comes to preparing pupils for school.

One of the main causes of failure in the primary education phase has appeared to be inadequate school readiness. For that reason various school readiness programmes have been identified and evaluated and a start has already been made with regard to the trial implementation of these. These programmes will also be subjected to further practical evaluation in the schools during 1989. They run during the first term of the first school year, and the department has found that some pupils who undergo the normal school readiness programme of 12 weeks, are still not ready for school at the end of the programme and as a result, they fail or drop out along the way. A start was made on a trial project as early as 1988 in order to develop a model to allow these pupils to undergo an extended school readiness programme. This school readiness programme is known as the bridging period programme, and corresponds with the decision of the Government and the White Paper on the Provision of Education in the RSA.

Although it is still at an early stage, the following particulars will give hon members an indication of the successes which have already been achieved.

In 1988, the programme was implemented in approximately 200 classes, and approximately 7 000 pupils were involved. In 1989 the programme was expanded to include 400 classes, and 14 000 pupils were involved. At the end of this year the results of this pilot project will be fully evaluated. After that a more suitable model for full application can be decided on, depending on the availability of finance. The first indications with regard to the pilot project are encouraging.

It is clear that it is an enormous success, firstly because 30% of the pupils who would normally have failed Sub A, could be promoted to Sub B. Secondly, this is clear because 60% of the pupils in the bridging classes were ready for school at the end of 1988, and were able to begin the formal Sub A programme immediately this year without having to again undergo the school readiness programme of 12 weeks.

Thirdly, it is clear because only 10% of the pupils in the bridging class will have to repeat the bridging programme. These are moderately and seriously handicapped pupils—pupils with learning problems. They have therefore already been identified at an early stage for testing and for referral to special remedial programmes or to special schools.

Fourthly, the total failure or drop-out rate has decreased by at least 10%. Fifthly, no pupil in the bridging class failed or dropped out. The conclusion to which we can come here, is that there are clear indications that the bridging period will result in a drastic increase in the capacity of schools. The drop-out rate across the whole spectrum will therefore decrease drastically.

We are pleased to see that the parents in the Black community at large are particularly positive with regard to this bridging period programme. Many letters and telephone calls have been received in which they express their appreciation, and their support and co-operation for the Department. I think we owe many thanks and a great deal of praise to those who are working with this programme.

I would like to congratulate the hon the Minister and the hon the Deputy Minister as well as the department with its officials and personnel, on the development of this programme, which will make a very important contribution to the increase in the quality of Black education, as well as in the quality of the student who has completed his studies.

We have been aware for a considerable time already that during the initial school years, and apparently also between school and tertiary education, bridging periods will have to be implemented in the South African system. This is a practice which is found in other countries of the world and which is being applied successfully. We know that the Department has often come under fire in the past for its recognition of the multicultural nature of South Africa. I want to address the opposition here, in particular the DP, by saying that it does not pay to deny the realities of South Africa and to ignore the unique nature of our society. To successfully accommodate people in the Western school system by making it easier for them by means of a transition, is realistically and educationally well-founded. It is for this reason that I would like to support this Vote.

Mr R W HARDINGHAM:

Mr Chairman, at the outset, may I compliment the department on their report. It is a very comprehensive document and I think they are to be commended for the manner in which it had been drawn up. However, I would like to suggest that consideration possibly be given to a condensed version of the report accompanying the main report, which I feel would alleviate the extent of the homework which is required. [Interjections.]

In the first instance I want to thank the hon the Minister for the opportunity of allowing me to join the parliamentary tour that visited certain educational centres in Natal last November. I can only say that even as a Natalian, this tour was an absolute eye-opener and it afforded members of Parliament the chance to see for themselves the excellent work that is being carried out by the department relative to Black education. The manner in which the tour was organised and the extent to which it was varied from the grassroots level of farm school education to that of secondary education to technical education was most commendable and impressive.

Perhaps it would be worth reflecting on some of the highlights. There was Etembeni, the school for crippled and cerebral palsied children—some 450 of them—who are so well accommodated at Cato Ridge.

I think of the Indumiso College of Education, the Suguma High School for scholars from farm schools and finally, the Plessislaer Technical College, which provide an excellent example of the various functions of the department. A visit of this nature emphasises the need by the Department of Education and Training to sell its wares more effectively. Its achievement, albeit inadequate for the increasing population, in the field of Black education over recent years is one of which the department can be truly proud.

I ask myself: Why are we unable to sell this message overseas? I feel we could sell this so positively which would make our overseas critics a little more appreciative of the problems that have to be solved in this country and the efforts that are being made to meet deficiencies in Black education. I want to congratulate the hon the Minister and the hon the Deputy Minister and at the same time express my thanks for the manner in which all the representations that I have made to them have been handled. They were handled efficiently and courteously and this is appreciated very much indeed.

Having said this, I once again wish to draw the attention of the hon the Minister to the desperate need to increase secondary school facilities in the rural areas. Here I refer to Natal in particular. We are all aware of the fact that the standard of primary school education is improving enormously, which in itself is having the effect of stimulating the aspirations of more and more scholars to further their education. The lack of facilities is undoubtedly the cause of considerable frustration and resentment.

The anomaly here is that in many cases scholars from farm schools complete their primary school education in so-called White areas. Thereafter, as a result of a lack of adequate facilities many of these same scholars are required to undergo their secondary education in KwaZulu under the KwaZulu education department. I do feel that in such cases an attempt should be made to ensure that the pupils who commence their education under the control of the Department of Education and Training should be able to complete it under the same authority. [Time expired.]

Mr J G VAN DEN HEEVER:

Mr Chairman, I appreciate the fact that I am following the hon member for Mooi River and I associate myself with his constructive remarks.

*I should like to add my congratulations to the hon the Minister, the hon the Deputy Minister and their department to those of previous speakers. I said on a previous occasion that we appreciate very much indeed the openness of the hon the Minister and the hon the Deputy Minister and the fact that they keep us well informed on developments.

Career-oriented education is an innovation with vast possibilities for job creation and economic prosperity and growth in this country. I welcome it whole-heartedly. Because of the contribution of this department we can hold our heads high and face the world and the critics of South Africa.

Career-oriented education is a recent development directed by the Department of Education and Training. In view of the deficiencies of the current system for technical education, the development of a new model for career-oriented education was decided upon. According to the annual report of the Department of Education and Training, a total of 21 technical orientation centres have been established. At these centres pupils from neighbouring schools are given the opportunity to do elementary practical work in the following trades: Welding, electrical work, bricklaying and woodwork. Pupils also receive theoretical training in these trades and elementary training in technical drawing.

With the implementation of the new approach to career-oriented education, the existing technical orientation centres will be systematically converted into either exploratory schools, career schools, comprehensive schools or technical colleges, according to the needs of the community. With the new approach pupils will be orientated to the basic vocational directions, namely commerce, technical, agriculture, art, para-medical and home economics at their own schools during the so-called exploratory phase in Std 5 to Std 7. This will be more cost-effective.

A new approach to career-oriented education has been developed by the department. The model aims at improving pupils’ employment prospects by placing greater emphasis on equipping them with relevant knowledge, skills and aptitudes from as early an age as possible.

Career-oriented education can be seen as a form of schooling which initiates pupils into work as an important component of life. For this reason the model is designed in such a way that the basic 100% gradually tapers down to the required 21% in the senior phase. At Sub A level 1 455 schools are already implementing this model. The transition phase was implemented in 270 primary schools. The programme has to meet the needs of the community, the pupils and the employers. It has to be in accordance with the manpower needs of our country, and it has to offer every pupil the opportunity to develop to his full achievement.

According to the annual report the following phases can be identified: Firstly, the technical moulding phase. This takes place from Sub A to Std 3. It is an holistic approach during the primary school phase in which the technical moulding of pupils receives proper attention and it is aimed at cultivating in pupils those basic skills required by the modern technological society. These skills also offer a useful basis for subsequent career-oriented tuition to pupils with the necessary interest and aptitude.

During the St 4 transition phase the skills and techniques cultivated by the preceding technical education culminate in the mastering of basic skills underlying technical work, such as how to take care of and use tools, that is, measure, mark, saw, file, plane, drill, rivet, solder and weld. In no other education system in this country do children in the substandards receive guidance in these aspects.

The transition phase will serve as a completion of the primary school and an introductory phase to the operation of a wide spectrum of technical careers. The relevant drawings, mathematics, theory and practical work are now offered as an integrated course in order to illustrate that these subjects are closely interrelated in technical work and in order to maintain the highest degree of correlation between the various components at all times.

Then we have the exploratory phase of Std 5, 6 and 7. At this stage the department expects that 70% of the pupils will get acquainted with a wide spectrum of technical fields of study as part of the formal school programme. The technical exploratory programme will for example be concerned with the acquiring of knowledge and the mastering of basic trade-oriented skills which together form a family of trades.

The programme for this phase will be constructed in such a way that pupils will explore certain fields of trade in Std 5 and 6, namely metal-related, building-related and electron-related trades. In his Std 7 year the pupil will get the opportunity to do a more in-depth exploration of the particular trade of his choice. At that stage technical drawing will also be relevant.

Then we come to the final section, namely the specialisation phase. In Std 8, 9 and 10 pupils receive instruction in the field of study in which they have shown the most aptitude and as a first step towards a career. The vocational component of the curriculum now incorporates work-related studies which can lead to the accrediting of certain skills by various accrediting councils. I welcome this model. [Time expired.]

*Mr D S PIENAAR:

Mr Chairman, when my previous turn to speak expired, I was trying to reconcile the apparent anomaly between the figure of 8 million Black pupils as projected by Sata and the figure of 2,1 million Black pupils expected by the department to attend school this year.

I am inclined to believe the department, but there is a specific reason why I mention this, because if Sata’s figure should prove to be incorrect it would be a pity that they mentioned this figure which provided a basis for arguments advanced in the left-wing Press and by themselves in order to wage a campaign for open White schools and universities. It is clear that a campaign has been launched, the fixed purpose of which is to bring about integrated education and open or mixed schools and universities; and the Government is not really objecting loudly enough for anyone to notice. In fact, the hon leader-in-chief of the NP saw fit during a debate on his Vote last week to argue that we already had one educational system anyway. He said that in an effort to avoid, on a technical point, the representations for a fully integrated educational system. White universities are open already.

This afternoon the hon member for Stellenbosch followed the example of the hon leader-in-chief of the NP, and now only schools remain, and this is really what it is all about. It is no use the hon leader-in-chief of the NP and the hon member for Stellenbosch misleading themselves. The agitation is for absolutely open educational facilities from A to Z. [Interjections.]

Therefore, it is important that the hon the Minister gives clarity in this debate about the exact figures so that the falsehood concerning and the propaganda for integrated education can be exposed.

The falsehood may, at least partly, lie in the fact that the numbers of Black pupils in the self-governing states were included. However, then they would still be false, since the so-called opening of schools in the Black states will not, in practice, amount to the opening of schools. It will be like the Durban beaches. Those beaches that used to be White and are now declared open, will be crowded by Blacks, while the beaches that used to be reserved for Blacks and are declared open, will remain crowded by Blacks.

I should like to refer to program 1—Administration. I have a problem with some of the statements made here, since they seem to be illogical. I am referring to the statements in the appropriation memorandum. I may be wrong, but I am reminded of the style of Dr Meiring on the joint committee where one would meet him now and then. It reminds me of the description by Judge Van den Heever on page 71 of her report. She says:

Dr Meiring kan ook nie as ’n goeie getuie bestempel word nie. Afgesien van die inhoud van wat hy gese het, was hy breedsprakig en het dikwels nie die vrae wat gestel is, beant-woord nie maar sy eie spoor gesny.

As far as I am concerned the first illogical statement is that a larger variety of courses are being offered. Surely the exact opposite would happen if there was a shortage of funds. The number of courses would be reduced and rationalisation would take place. It just does not make sense.

Another illogical statement is that the department is trying to keep up with the increasing demands while, at the same time, limiting increases in expenditure as far as possible. How is it possible to keep up with demands when, just on the previous page, it is admitted that cuts in expenditure will have a negative effect on education?

On another page mention is made of making partial provision for the greater physical accommodation needs as a result of the expected increase in student numbers. The hon the Minister must openly admit that the Government has already fallen behind in its effort to provide equal education for all races.

In another statement mention is made of the increase of 19,4% in the allocation to this programme which is largely attributed to the expansion of the department’s management structure. I want to issue a warning that great care must be taken to avoid what happened in the USA with excessive State involvement in Black education. In their book Free to Choose the Freedmans write:

As to bureaucratisation for a somewhat earlier period for which data is available, 68-69 to 73-74, when the number of students went up 1%, the total professional staff went up 15% and teachers 14% but supervisors went up 44%.

Dr Max Gamon, after having investigated the British health services, formulated the theory of bureaucratic displacement. In a bureaucratic system, he says—

… increase in expenditure will be matched by a fall in production.

Unfortunately I must also enquire about allegations of irregularities in the department concerning the purchasing of books for class libraries. Everybody in the department seems to know that certain persons, even persons with political connections, have been favoured. It is no use closing our eyes and ears and keeping our mouths shut like the proverbial three wise monkeys—even though this may be the correct behaviour under normal circumstances—because the department is not operating under normal circumstances at present. The rumours, allegations and reliable information, whatever this may be, must be brought into the open so that the Van den Heever Commission may investigate it in order to put an end to a period and circumstances that do not serve the best interests of Black education.

An investigation into and report on the expenditure of Government funds on printing was envisaged in the Van den Heever Report on the Ivis system. If this reference to printing includes this aspect, the matter should, of course, rest with the Commission. However, if that is not the case, I want to request the hon the Minister to consider referring this aspect to the Commission as well.

*The MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND DEVELOPMENT AID:

On what basis?

*Mr D S PIENAAR:

On the basis of information that I have just mentioned to the hon the Minister. Surely he does not expect me to devote my entire speech to one aspect. I am trying to cover a number of aspects in the severely limited time allocated to the CP in joint debates. I am doing this in order to utilize my time properly. [Interjections.]

I should now like to refer to information made available to me concerning irregularities in the Department of Education and Training in respect of the so-called Top Down courses involving management development and performance improvement of education executives. I thank the hon the Minister for his written reply that I received a week after making enquiries about the matter.

There are two aspects that I am not happy about. The one is that certain officials of the department were deeply involved in the development of the courses, the need determination and criticism of draft courses, whereas my information indicates that some pecuniary gain could have accrued to the relevant officials. The insinuation has been made that the level of involvement of certain officials was exceptionally high in order to benefit the successful contractor.

The second aspect concerns the hon the Minister’s statement that he does not consider it necessary to issue another statement on the matter at this stage, whilst tenders were not called for initially, since 1984. Discussions were held with all the interested consultants and their proposals were considered. It was then decided to use the services of a certain consultant. It is not clear at what stage this decision was taken. It is not clear either to what extent departmental officials were involved in the development of the consultant’s proposals, if I may call them that, and whether all the interested consultants received the same degree of assistance. Only on 21 May 1987, three years after 1984, ex post facto condonation and approval of the contract with the successful consultant was obtained from the State Tender Board.

Unfortunately these facts show certain similarities with the events that were and are being investigated by the Van den Heever Commission. Since I should like to avoid the risk of making the same mistake that the hon the Minister made earlier by failing to insist on a full investigation into all the facts and circumstances in the light of the information that I have received, I should like to enquire from the hon the Minister whether he is prepared to refer the matter to the Van den Heever Commission for investigation. I think it would be in the department’s interests to grant this request, considering the allegations and rumours about the matter that are doing the rounds. [Time expired.]

*The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION:

Mr Chairman, it is very pleasant to be able to participate today in this Vote discussion under rather different circumstances. It is also pleasant to be able to deal with the Vote simultaneously together with the other Houses. I find the atmosphere very pleasant and I am grateful for this opportunity.

There is another reason why this is a special day for a few of us and it is because the date 24 April marks a special occasion for the Club of Seventy-Four in the sense that many of us—those who remained—entered Parliament on 24 April 1974 and today have therefore been in this place for 15 years. I want to say that the fact that we are able to participate in the discussion of this Vote on this day makes it a special occasion for us. [Interjections.]

*Mr D S PIENAAR:

Probably your last occasion.

*The DEPUTY MINISTER:

The hon member for Potgietersrus is still a young member and he will still learn that one must be careful about being as presumptious and verbose as that remark has just proved him to be.

At the outset I should like to convey a few words of special thanks and appreciation to our hon Minister of Education and Development Aid. This is the fifth Vote discussion we have had the privilege of sharing with him, and I can say today that my admiration and appreciation for the exceptional contribution he makes has done nothing but increase. The closer one comes to him the more one realises what an exceptionally gifted person he is.

I think that he has made a material contribution to Black education during the past five years, as many of the hon members testified. He is honoured and respected by the Black people and the parent community for the contribution he is making. His credibility in the Black community is exceptionally high and I can testify to this because that is what they tell me. For that reason I want to thank him for the exceptional leadership qualities he displays in this very important portfolio.

I should also like to associate myself with other hon members who conveyed words of welcome to Dr Bernard Louw. I should also like to congratulate him on his appointment as Director-General. He is a well-known personage in education circles and we know his abilities. We should like to welcome him to the Department of Education and Training and wish him many blessings and prosperity on the road ahead.

†Furthermore, I would like to associate myself wholeheartedly with the hon the Minister’s words to the outgoing Council for Education and Training. I think we have enjoyed a very happy relationship over the years, one which has always been very cordial. I want to thank them for their friendship and kindness over the years. We will always remember them with kindness and always respect the contribution which they have made towards the cause of the education of our children.

*I think if one had to look back at this stage on the debate as we have conducted it up to now one cannot, with the exception of the hon members of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly, but express our gratitude and appreciation for a very positive and constructive debate. Although we did not agree with everything hon members said, they did at least try to make a contribution to the cause of Black education and there was recognition for the tremendous challenge we have to meet in the education of our Black children. I became aware of the earnestness with which hon members realise that the future of South Africa is to a very large extent going to be determined by the degree to which we succeed in preparing Black children to meet the challenges of the future in South Africa.

The CPs unfortunately chose to plod around in the mud here today. I must say I found it a great pity that they actually had very little to say about how they thought we should deal with this very serious problem of Black education and the challenge facing us here.

*Mr D S PIENAAR:

Apparently you know where the mud is.

*The DEPUTY MINISTER:

By now we know that the hon member for Potgietersrus has been waging a vendetta against our hon Minister for the past number of years.

*Mr D S PIENAAR:

Which you get where?

*The DEPUTY MINISTER:

I need only listen to the hon member to be able to say that to him. Hon members are my witnesses in this connection.

I do not quite understand the hon member’s argument. In his initial speech today the hon member reproached the hon the Minister for the fact that there were so many investigations, but in the same breath he said that the hon the Minister was not a good administrator. I do not understand that because most of the investigations in question are investigations ordered by the hon the Minister. These have been investigations that were ordered in order to get to the root of problems, investigations which clearly indicate to what extent the hon the Minister is in earnest about eliminating irregularities, but the hon member reproaches him for it. I cannot understand it, and I find it strange.

The hon member reproached the hon the Minister because he did not take precipitous action against officials. I should like to tell the hon member that if he thinks this hon Minister, Dr Gerrit Viljoen, is a person who act precipitously, he is making a very big mistake, because I know him to be a man who believes in justness and fairness. [Interjections.] It has always been his point of departure that a person must have an opportunity to state his case.

If the hon the Minister had acted precipitously against officials and the commission had arrived at a different finding, I want to guarantee that that hon member would have been the first one to say here today that the hon the Minister was unsympathetic towards officials because he simply hired and fired them left, right and centre. That would have been the hon member’s reaction. If the hon member expects that from the hon the Minister he is making a big mistake because he is a man of fairness and integrity. [Interjections.]

The hon member also mentioned certain projections to the year 2000. I can just tell him that the subdirectorate of statistics has calculated that in the year 2000 there will be approximately 2,5 million pupils in primary schools and 1,1 million in secondary schools, which will add up to a total of approximately 3,7 million. This applies to pupils falling under the jurisdiction of our department.

The hon member also mentioned irregularities in respect of the purchase of books. I think it has been the point of departure of the Ministry throughout that if facts are brought to our attention which indicate irregularities, we shall definitely give attention to them. If the hon member does have any facts in respect of the matter he mentioned here—he did not mention many facts—he should feel entirely free to bring them to our attention.

*Mr D S PIENAAR:

Are you censuring the matters which have been referred to the commission?

*The DEPUTY MINISTER:

The commission was appointed by this hon Minister …

*Mr D S PIENAAR:

That is not correct.

*The DEPUTY MINISTER:

… it was appointed by the hon the State President …

*Mr D S PIENAAR:

That is correct. Get your facts straight. [Interjections.]

*The DEPUTY MINISTER:

Oh, Sir, I would prefer not to do that.

*The CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE (Assembly):

Order!

*The DEPUTY MINISTER:

The hon member also mentioned irregularities in respect of the so-called Top Down courses and the tender procedures that were adopted. To the best of my knowledge the hon the Minister wrote a letter to the hon member in this connection. The facts of the matter are that initially tenders were not called for in 1984, and that talks were held with interested consultants. Their proposals were considered and it was decided to make use of the services of AOL. The hon member will also find in that letter that a certain pilot project was launched by AOL, which was monitored and recommended by various organisations, including the office of the Commission for Administration. Furthermore he will also observe that Treasury approval was in fact obtained.

The then Director-General of Education and Training was however under the impression that since the pilot project had been approved by the Commission for Administration and funds had been provided by Treasury, it was not necessary also to obtain approval from the Tender Board. On 21 May 1987 full ex post facto approval by the State Tender Board was obtained for this contract after it had come to the attention of the Director-General, and he had then brought it to the attention of the State Tender Board.

The hon member also referred to the involvement of officials in the drawing up of the programmes. If the hon member would look at the contract entered into with AOL at the end of November 1984 he would see that it was in fact a term of the contract that officials would be consulted and that officials would be given opportunities to make inputs in this connection. The hon the Minister, if I remember correctly, replied in the letter that officials had not been remunerated for their contribution. To the best of my knowledge the officials were not remunerated. If the hon member has other information in this connection, we would appreciate it if he would bring it to our attention.

I think the hon member for Berg River made a very good speech and made a very interesting observation on how he believed that the people of our country wanted to reach agreement with one another. He also referred to the goodwill which existed in Black communities among our Black people. I should like to say that I agree wholeheartedly with what the hon member said.

I think if there is one matter that has struck me during the past four and a half years it is the fact that so much goodwill exists among our Black people. Among our Black people, in our Black schools and among our Black school children I have experienced only goodwill. I agree with him that we must do something to exploit this goodwill which exists. It think it is important for us to tell people about this goodwill and that we will enable all people to experience it.

That is why it has always been our standpoint that we could only strike a hard blow for South Africa’s future if we were able to bring all our people together so that they could get to know and understand one another better. I make no secret of the fact that I am in favour of our giving our children—they are South Africa’s future—an opportunity to be exposed to one another to a greater extent, to have opportunities to talk to one another and cultivate a better understanding of one another. After all they are the people who have to find the solutions to tomorrow’s problems.

I should like to thank the hon member for Stellenbosch for the kind words of appreciation which he conveyed to the hon the Minister and myself. He is the chairman of our Joint Committee on Education and I should like to thank him very sincerely for the major contribution he makes by talking to people, bringing people together and by making progress through negotiation.

†The hon member for Cavendish made a very interesting statement when he said we cannot expect Black education to be normal if we do not succeed in solving the political and economic problems of our country. I fully agree with that statement. However, it is also true to say that we have not solved these problems as yet and therefore we cannot expect education to be normal. I certainly agree with him that if we succeed in solving our political and economic problems it will certainly have a major effect in finding solutions and normalising our educational problems.

The hon member for Cape Town Gardens made mention of certain indicators of crisis in the Department of Education and Training and in education as such. Before reacting any further I should like to thank him for his kind remarks. I have always found it pleasant to work with him in the educational field. He is certainly concerned about what is going on in education, and I have only the highest regard for his enthusiasm.

The hon member referred to the crisis as far as physical facilities are concerned, and I want to admit that we are of course facing a major problem in this regard. In order, however, to place macro-planning for the provision of education on a scientific basis several national plans for the provision of physical facilities have been compiled. The aim of this is to plan for educational needs per residential area, taking into consideration the demographic trends and the siting of feeder schools, and also determining priorities by means of a departmental committee. The department is presently investigating various possibilities in relation to the accelerated short-term provision of buildings for education. I share his concern in this respect, and I wish we could make faster progress in this sphere. I do know, however, that the hon member also knows what our restrictions are in this regard.

In all fairness, one must refer to the progress we are making in this regard, particularly insofar as secondary schools are concerned. During 1988 twenty new secondary schools, consisting of 883 tuition rooms, were completed. At 18 existing schools 360 additional tuition rooms were erected. The additional 1243 tuition rooms make provision for approximately 43 500 pupils. This is only in respect of secondary schools, and I believe we are making progress although we would like to move much faster than we are moving at the moment.

*Mr Chairman, the hon member also referred to the comprehensive school in Guguletu and to what happened there. I can remember the matter very well. I sent the hon member a letter in that regard. I think the hon member must just bear in mind that the observations of the inspection panel that visited the school testified to the situation at that specific juncture.

Nevertheless education cannot be provided only by the department or by the Government. Education also affects the community and the children. If problems arise, for example riots, surely it is going to have an effect on the achievements of those children.

A specific independent state, for example, maintained a pass rate of over 70% for ten years in regard to their standard ten pupils. After there had been boycotts in two areas for six weeks— that was in 1988—that pass rate dropped to 65%. That is why one must take into account that in the final instance it is still the motivation of the teachers and the pupils, as well as the families, that is the deciding factor when it comes to school achievement.

I heard what the hon member said. I undertake to look into this matter again. The hon member said it as an indication of a crisis in education. However, I must tell him that we have never been deaf or blind when we had to listen to or look into problems brought to our attention. We are prepared to continue in that way because we believe that is the road to success.

In recent times vehement criticism has repeatedly been levelled at the Department of Education and Training and the way it operates the education system for Black people. This criticism assumed a variety of forms. Sometimes it was sincere ignorance; the intentions were good but the homework had not been done. Sometimes the criticism was based on erroneous information. What irks one, however, is when criticism deliberately ignores the facts, facts which are usually freely available.

Many prophets of doom when it comes to education for Black people find themselves in this latter group. Over the years we have heard these prophets of doom making their predictions one after the other. I think it is perhaps a good thing for one to test these prophecies against the reality. In this respect I should like to associate myself with what the hon the Minister said this afternoon.

Let us look at the prevailing situation today in Black education. Hon members will recall the numerous meaningless disruptions, violence, intimidation and unjustified interference by radical elements, all things which have happened in our schools during the past few years. The inciters of this disruption were frequently acting in a very reckless way with the future of our pupils and in respect of thousands of such young people I think they have a lot to answer for when it comes to lost opportunities.

Today, however, we can ask not in a challenging way but with gratitude whether the predictions of the prophets of doom about a total collapse of education had been borne out. Surely the reply is a resounding “no”. With a few exceptions where frantic attempts by inciters are still causing sporadic disruption, education is taking place in an effective and meaningful way throughout the country. The massive St 10 examination effort at the end of 1988—earlier today the hon member for Brentwood also referred to this—which was disposed of without any real disruption was surely a fine example of this.

A pleasing development is the extent to which our parents and our community leaders have thrown in their weight on the side of education and the future of their young people. With this constructive co-operation the parents and the community leaders are reinforcing the favourable climate for the realisation of the ideals of these young people. Such a climate is essential for unhindered progress with the many innovative programmes and projects to improve the standard of education. To put it plainly, education is proceeding normally today and thousands of pupils are benefiting from it.

The Department of Education and Training has never hesitated to spell out its mission in this connection. It is to accompany the children of the Republic of South Africa, with care and efficiency and to support them in their attainment of responsible and meaningful adulthood. However, the department has to carry out this mission against the background of exceptional circumstances which are frequently very inhibi-tive. Many of these circumstances are present in regard to other departments. Earlier this afternoon the hon the Minister referred to the tremendous increase in numbers. If one looks only at the increase in our high school population during the past year it appears that our high school population increased by 18,5%. Surely this is unbelievable! It is enough to cause the best team of people in the world to flinch from such a task.

I believe that these circumstances are also a typical Third World phenomenon. We did not discover this phenomenon. It is unique to education in developing communities. Of course it is true that there are backlogs that have to be eliminated, while there are limits on the availability of manpower and funds.

Earlier today the hon the Minister referred to rural education. It is true that as a result of inadequate funds we find ourselves compelled to re-evaluate the education provision programme in the rural areas. Recently we have made very good progress with this, also thanks to the huge contribution made by the farming community in the interests of this country and its people. The building of schools and the maintenance by means of subsidies will unfortunately have to be curtailed owing to the economic situation. Nevertheless I want to give the assurance that rural education will remain a very high priority for us.

Another field in which the lack of funds will have an effect is as far as teacher : pupil ratio are concerned. We must expect that we will not be able to work as rapidly on attaining the ideals of the 10-year plan as we had initially hoped to do. †We must, however, realise that there are no instant solutions to our problems, despite what so many of our critics would have us believe. Our administrative and professional staff regard these problems as challenges requiring innovative and effective solutions. We have many such innovative approaches which we are implementing. The hon the Minister referred earlier to the management training programme from which more than 10 600 managers and 40 300 teachers in our department benefited up to March 1989.

When we refer to the retention of our pupils it is apparent that in 1980 only 6,2% of our pupils had progressed from Sub A to Std 10. By 1988 the retention of pupils had increased to almost 25%. Surely this is a success story.

A further exciting development has been major investigations into special education programmes for mildly mentally retarded and for gifted pupils. In respect of gifted pupils the intersectoral task group’s report has been received and is now under consideration. These pupils, whom Plato referred to as “golden children”, are present in similar proportions in every population group. They must be identified and be given special attention to satisfy the need of every community for leaders, problem solvers, intellectuals and artists.

*Unfortunately my time has run out, as the saying goes. In conclusion I just want to observe that recently one has taken note with great appreciation of the healthy interest in the education of Black people on the part of the printed media. I believe their contribution is becoming more constructive and they are also showing an increasing appreciation for the achievements of the department.

To sum up, these successes, of which I have mentioned only a few, lead to the inevitable conclusion that education for Black people in South Africa is basically sound, although there are still many challenges. [Time expired.]

Mr M J ELLIS:

Mr Chairman, the hon the Deputy Minister has given a very full reply to each hon member. He has also given a very full report this afternoon in his usual very competent way. I do not wish to comment too much on what he has said. [Interjections.]

The hon member for South Coast is dying to ask me a question. One of these days I will give him that right but not this afternoon because I have no time. [Interjections.]

The hon the Deputy Minister has indeed given a very full comment and reply to all the hon members who have spoken. I want to add to some of his problems but first of all I want to say I believe that he is very sincere when he says that he has a desire to give all pupils falling under his control the very best of opportunities.

However, we do have to accept the fact that the backlogs in Black education and Black education facilities are so great that his task is a very difficult one, especially in the light of the economic situation of this country at present. There are certainly no instant solutions, as he has said, to the problems of Black education. His task is a difficult one and, as I say, I wish to add to some of his difficulties.

I want to speak briefly on the importance of farm school systems and schooling in South Africa. In a country where for many years hundreds of thousands of children in the rural areas have been denied any formal schooling at all because there were no schools for them, the Department of Education and Training’s decision a couple of years ago to introduce a much improved subsidy scheme for the erection and maintenance of farm schools was certainly a most important step forward. As hon members know, the scheme entitled farmers to a subsidy of up to 75% of the evaluation of buildings and facilities provided but in the report of the Department of Education and Training it is indicated that the department is still heavily dependent on farmers to provide basic education facilities. This implies that in areas where farmers are not particularly interested in providing education facilities, children can continue to be deprived of any real education opportunities.

There is, however, a small problem I wish to bring to the hon the Minister’s attention, namely that it certainly appears that certain farmers in certain areas are completely unaware of the subsidy scheme. If I may make mention, for example, of one such area, the Camperdown-Estar-Umlaas Road area near Pietermaritzburg, where farmers continue to supply schools and educational materials at their own cost and are therefore having to rely very heavily on charitable organisations for assistance in this regard. It does appear, as I say, that these farmers in these areas have not been informed or are just unaware of the department’s subsidy scheme. The reason for this is not entirely clear but farmers have again made it clear that if it were not for the charitable organisations with which they are in contact and which are involved in the farm school system, they would be extremely limited in their ability to offer any education to the children on their farms at all.

May I ask the hon the Minister how his department advertised to farmers their subsidy scheme, whether all farmers were notified and how many farmers took advantage of the subsidy scheme over the past few years? The farm school system even as it exists now, certainly remains a grossly inadequate system of education. It has improved, of that there is no doubt, but it certainly has a long way to go. Many teething problems still exist. There are no instant solutions as the hon the Deputy Minister has implied. This applies as much to farm schools as to all education.

Farm school owners and farm school teachers will tell one how their schools are inundated with pupils from the age of three years and upwards. My colleague the hon member for Pinetown has spoken at length on the importance of preprimary education amongst Black children. This applies even more to children in the rural areas than it does to children in urban areas. If we could ignore that side of it and look at primary education, from the first year of formal education upwards, we would see that still far too much can be of a random nature for there to be any real great value in the education that has been offered at these farm schools. It has been brought to my attention on numerous occasions that the education of the younger children is often left exclusively to the older children who have moved up through the courses of the school.

I want to say again that there is no doubt that the improvement in the subsidy scheme has led to an improvement in the farm school system, but this whole system does remain a very serious problem in the education of children in the rural areas. I believe too that far more farmers need to be encouraged to make use of the subsidy scheme.

The hon member for Cape Town Gardens also touched very briefly on an issue of great importance, and that is language competence and the need for students arriving at post-school colleges to undergo extensive courses in understanding spoken English, the analysis of the content of written or spoken English and how to speak English better themselves.

A number of speakers here today have spoken about computers in schools as being items of great necessity, and one cannot deny the importance of computer science in schools. We have to accept the fact, however, that in most Black schools the most important requirement in the learning of any subject, whether it be computer science, mathematics or science of any nature, is an ability to understand the spoken and written word. Far too many pupils are rising through the standards and achieving passes at the end of the year into higher standards or into post-matric work, who have not yet mastered a thorough competence in the necessary language skills in order to allow them to cope in the various courses they follow later on. English is the language which is required in nearly every standard and in nearly every post-matric course.

Of course, much of the tragedy with regard to the low standard of comprehension of both written and spoken English is the poor quality of teaching in Black education, which again is the result of the inadequate training of so many Black teachers. [Time expired.]

Mr C N MOODLIAR:

Mr Chairman, on making an honest assessment of Black education and the problems which arise, one has to admit the fact that the Verwoerdian Bantu Education Act set education at all levels back several decades, and that the continuing obsession with education as an own affair raises costs, creates anomalies and causes constant and persistent overlapping and fragmentation of resources.

There are other factors facing this Ministry and the Ministry of National Education. The most important aspect that I see is the rising birth rate, which has put the hon the Minister and his department on a treadmill. In recent population statistics it was pointed out that the Black population is increasing by approximately 1 million per year. With this rising birth rate, the hon the Minister and his department will be faced with a constant problem which will make some inroads into education.

There are other factors, like Third World conditions and urbanisation, which have added to the pressure, and the silly slogan “liberation now and education later” has done much damage. Sanctions, disinvestment and other ill-considered attempts to undermine the South African economy have jeopardised the interests of the less-privileged people. South Africa simply cannot afford to allow the deterioration of education. We must go on in spite of the challenges that we face.

Peaceful solutions to the country’s problems hinge on ensuring that rapid progress is made in lifting the standards of education and training for all people. There is ample evidence of this in various reports from the Department of National Education. All efforts, both within the country and outside it by concerned international friends, must be directed at speeding up this progress.

On the subject of technical education, I would like to quote Mr Hennie Snyman, rector of the Port Elizabeth Technikon:

Good technical education, available to all South Africans, is the key to a peaceful future.

At present there is an unhealthy imbalance between vocationally trained technikon students and academically schooled university students in South Africa. Our ratio at present of 1:5, when compared to the accepted norm in Western industrialised countries of 4:1 and 7:1 in Japan, indicates that something is critically wrong.

This tendency must be reversed and this can only occur if policies are adopted which stimulate the rapid growth of technikons. We must provide all our young people with the necessary knowledge and skills so that they are immediately productively employable in commerce and industry.

I want to point out how true this statement is that I have just made. I have in my constituency a university graduate with honours in history. He has walked the streets of Durban in vain because nobody is interested in employing a man with honours in history. Down the road is an ex-pupil of mine who went to a technical college and did a plumbing course. The plumber is very profitably employed, so much so that his salary is far higher than the local doctor’s. What I am trying to say is, if we can train more and more men in the industrial and technical field, our employment problems and other problems will be solved. It is clear that the area of high-level technical manpower should not be restricted and cannot be provided by a single population group of this country. The contribution must come from all race groups so that all the people of this country can build on it and tackle the technological challenges that lie ahead.

Very often the Ministry of National Education is criticised. I want to share the view of the last speaker that there has been a very historical movement in rural education in South Africa, so much so that it has passed unnoticed. It is a milestone in the history of education. When the history of rural education is written, posterity will perhaps thank the hon the Minister and his department for what he has done.

Let us examine what rural education was. Rural education was education entrusted to paternalistic farmers who were concerned about their labourers’ children wasting and whiling their time away. Then came grave political agitation about child labour being used on farms which brought quite a bit of international attention. All that is in the past now. Farm schools have been replaced by substantial buildings and well-lit classrooms. In other words, education has now been taken to the farm and rural areas. The hon the Minister and his department must get the credit for this.

Another very important movement was carrying on quietly in the field of teacher training. A professionally qualified teacher is a valuable asset to any school. In 1984 more than 80% of Black teachers were non-matriculants. According to the 1986 report, this number has now been reduced to 50%, in that professionally qualified teachers now have the basic matriculation plus one year. Another important development has taken place in the teacher training field. By providing in-service training, the quality of education and the imparting of knowledge has improved a great deal, much to the advantage of the pupils who come under the care of these teachers who are now professionally qualified.

What I want to suggest to the hon the Minister and his department is, firstly, that the schoolgoing age of the child must be regularised. I understand that in the rural areas pupils aged 3,4 and 5 go to school. I think this is not educationally sound. What we have to do is to regulate attendance and to bring in compulsory education. Compulsory education will be the answer to the number of delinquents and the unsocial activities by pupils not going to school.

There is another very important development that has been occurring on farms. That is the literacy programme. I wonder if hon members know that there is a literacy programme for farm labourers who have never been in a classroom and who do not know how to read and write. The department is now involved in a literacy programme educating labourers in the basics. I understand there has been satisfactory progress in this direction.

The last aspect I wish to touch upon is the following. An improvement in Black education is an investment for peace and prosperity for all. [Time expired.]

*Mr J A BRAZELLE:

Mr Chairman, the hon member who spoke before me, will excuse me. In the course of my speech, I shall link up with what he said with regard to career-orientated education, as well as farm schools. I think that one of the other hon members will also be able to reply to that. However, I would just like to tell the hon member for Durban North that I received the information with regard to subsidies of farm schools from the organised agriculture, and I think that he should talk to his farmer unions, because they know, or should know, about all these subsidies which await them.

To begin with, I would like to refer to the second Carnegie enquiry into poverty in South Africa, which was completed a while ago. Articles appeared inter alia in Beeld of 25 January of this year on the recommendations. I quote as follows from this article:

Grond, vuur en water is die basiese lewens-middele. Grond vir die kweek van voedsel, vuur vir die voorbereiding daarvan en vir die verskaffing van hitte, en water om te drink en ook voedsel te plant. Oorbevolking en oorbe-weiding, asook jarelange droogtes het die aarde uitgeput. Die aarde lewer nie meer kos nie. Sonder kos sterf mense. Nie minder nie as ’n derde van alle Swart kinders ly aan onder-voeding.

The article goes on to mention that the socioeconomic decline is widespread, and then refers to the fact that 50% of the total South African population live below the bread line. The article continues:

Werksgeleenthede is skaars en werkloosheid neem toe.

Crime and the further results of this are also elucidated in the article. Many aspects of this article can no doubt be discussed from different points of view. However, what is of importance to me for the debate today, is that while the creation of employment opportunities is important, what is just as important is that career-orientated education should prepare people to be able to fulfil employment opportunities productively, as the hon member for Grassy Park indicated to us as well.

If that is to be my approach to the problem of unemployment, then I cannot but refer to the success story of the Department of Education and Training with tremendous enthusiasm and also with a great deal of gratitude.

I therefore want to link up with other hon members who congratulated the officials who fulfil their enormous task under difficult circumstances in a wonderful way. They even pioneered the area of career-orientated education and can serve as an example to other education departments.

In referring to Dr Bernard Louw, I want to congratulate him on his appointment, with the knowledge that he will undertake this substantial task with the same enthusiasm and dedication which he showed when he and I started out together as young teachers in Queenstown.

One of the greatest challenges facing the department, is the annual increase in the number of pupils. We have already heard this afternoon that the total number of enrolments in the past year has increased by 7,9% to approximately 2,1 million pupils.

Furthermore, it is also illuminating to see that the growth in the secondary school population from 381 537 to 452 308 pupils represents an increase of 18,5%. The model for career education has also already been implemented in 1 455 primary schools, of which 496 are Government assisted schools, including farm schools.

In the few minutes at my disposal I would like to refer to one career-orientated form of education, namely agricultural education. Approximately 1,2 million Black farm workers draw their livelihood from the South African agricultural industry, of which between 400 000 and 600 000 are employed in permanent posts, while the rest are seasonal workers. The above-mentioned Black employees, in general, have a very low level of vocational training. The need for vocational training in the agricultural industry, however, lies not only at the primary agricultural level, but also at the secondary agricultural level. This is the field of the agro-industries in the rural areas, the processing and marketing industries, as well as the agricultural services sector.

There are 856 Black schools which offer the subject agricultural science from Std I to Std 8 in their syllabus. In December last year, 55 479 pupils wrote the external Senior Certificate examination in agricultural science. Although the situation with regard to agricultural education may not appear to be too unfavourable to observers, the effectiveness of it is being strongly questioned. The reason for this is that the nature of presentation in the field of study is very theoretical in the ordinary primary and secondary schools, where the largest number of our pupils are. This is particularly as a result of the total lack of education facilities in practical agricultural instruction.

It is only at secondary agricultural schools where effective practical agricultural education is, in my opinion, possible. At the end of 1988, 148 pupils connected with the four agricultural schools wrote the external Senior Certificate examination. At the beginning of 1989, a fifth agricultural school opened and at the moment, the department is also building a high-profile agricultural school for the training of Black pupils, particularly from Qwaqwa and the Free State.

I am very much aware of the fact that the erection of these high-profile agricultural schools is tremendously expensive. According to information, the latest addition cost approximately R13 million to erect. According to a survey which was done in 1978, the unit cost per pupil at an ordinary secondary school and low and high profile agricultural schools is as follows: Ordinary secondary schools: R640; low-profile agricultural schools, R940; high-profile agricultural schools: R2 310.

I realise that it is impossible to provide effective career education in agriculture to the large number of Black pupils in the rural areas at the costs which I have mentioned. I believe that a more affordable agricultural school must be sought, such as the low-profile agricultural school in which the maximum number of Black pupils can be incorporated in agricultural education. I also believe that such schools must be approached in co-operation with the regional agricultural unions, as well as bodies such as the Urban Foundation and Boskop.

A possible agriculturally orientated syllabus in a school could consist of the following subjects: Agricultural science, practical agriculture, agronomy, animal husbandry, tractor mechanics, farm mechanics, as well as elementary building.

I believe that a part of my constituency, the largest irrigation scheme in South Africa, namely Vaalharts, would lend itself to a thorough investigation into the possible establishment of such an agricultural school. The irrigation scheme is densely populated and provides work to approximately 40 000 Black workers. A school building on the irrigation scheme, which was used until a few years ago and was then used by the Department of Nature Conservation, which has now also evacuated the school building, is empty. The schoolgrounds cover approximately 7 hectares of irrigation land and are also scheduled for water under the State water scheme. Various farm schools exist within a radius of 10 km and could serve as a feeder source for the school. The school building consists of various classrooms as well as an administrative block. Nature conservation enclosed the grounds with a fence to keep out game. I believe that the establishment of such a school would not only be to the advantage of the Black pupils, but also to the farmers themselves, because a better agriculturalist would enter the labour market. I believe that the success of agricultural instruction to Black pupils in our community is only possible if the involvement of the community can be obtained.

I want to thank the department today for what they are doing. I want to tell the department that my community and I are willing to become a part of this success story whereby they are building a better future for South Africa. I would like to support this Vote.

Mr J VAN ECK:

Mr Chairman, today I want yet again to raise the case of a teacher, namely Mr Wellington Mvunge, a former teacher at the Injonga Primary School in Khayelitsha who I believe has been treated in the most shoddy way imaginable.

In March 1988 Mr Mvunge was suspended by the department pending an investigation into certain incidents on the schoolgrounds in which Mr Mvunge as well as other teachers including the principal, were involved. He was suspended in March without subsequently being paid his salary. [Interjections.] On 4 October 1988 Mr Mvunge was found innocent of all the charges against him in a court of law. He was now a free man with a clean record and he assumed, I believe correctly, that he would now be reinstated as a teacher.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION:

But he received his salary.

Mr J VAN ECK:

Yes, but he only received his salary afterwards. He received no salary for six months. He was only paid his salary after he had been found innocent.

He was now a free man with a clean record and he assumed, I believe correctly, that he would now be reinstated as a teacher. Instead of this he was called in by Mr Nel of the department’s regional office who handed him a letter dismissing him on the basis that he had taken employment at a private school while he was not receiving any salary from the department. He was paid no money for six months. He has a family, a house and a car to pay for and so in order to survive he took another job. He committed the sin of going to teach at another school in order to get money to survive. I think this is incredibly callous. How can one punish a competent and diligent teacher and how can one dismiss a man for the so-called sin of finding an alternative source of income for six months?

I raised Mr Mvunge’s plight with the hon the Deputy Minister some time ago and I think I am correct in saying that he himself was not happy that the treatment Mr Mvunge had received was fair.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION:

I said that he should apply for a post again.

Mr J VAN ECK:

The hon the Deputy Minister says that he must apply for a post again. Mr Mvunge has done that. He has twice submitted applications for a post with the department and until today not a word has been heard from anybody. At the moment he is a still a person without employment. Instead of this highly intelligent and dedicated teacher being used where his talents are so desperately needed he is now, a year after being unfairly suspended, for no good reason, still unemployed.

Two points stand out in this case. Firstly, why has no action been taken—if any action has been planned I would like to hear about it—against any of the teachers at Injonga School who were also involved in the incident in respect of which Mr Mvunge was suspended and in respect of which he has now been found innocent? The incident which Mr Mvunge was suspended for is quite a bad incident and the hon the Deputy Minister will know what happened.

The principal and two teachers attacked Mr Mvunge with a knife. They stabbed him. He tried to defend himself. Then they started throwing bricks at him. Mr Mvunge had to run away from his own principal and other teachers trying to kill him. He had to hide in his own classroom. When he came out he got something to defend himself with—a piece of lead pipe—and they ran away.

Mr Mvunge has been found innocent of all the accusations against him. He is not a person who has been found guilty of any crime but in spite of that fact today Mr Mvunge is unemployed as a teacher while the people who are—I assume— the people who are guilty are still being employed by this department. Even if Mr Mvunge is not employed at least those teachers should also be acted against. They should at least also be suspended and their case investigated.

Secondly, the hon the Minister will also have to realise that the community out there have watched the way in which his department has handled this case. This does not pass unnoticed— the community does take note of this. The shoddy and the unjust way in which an innocent teacher has been treated has created a poor impression of the way the department treats Black teachers. A White teacher would not be treated in this way and if he was the community would never accept it. Even at this late stage—I do not believe Mr Mvunge has burned any bridges—he is as committed to teaching as he was then. At this late stage I still want to ask the hon the Deputy Minister please to rectify this matter. It is a simple case of a teacher wanting to teach. There is nothing being held against him either as far as competence or politics is concerned. I believe a great injustice is still being perpetrated.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION:

I am not aware that he applied.

Mr J VAN ECK:

The hon the Deputy Minister says he is not aware of the fact that Mr Mvunge has applied. I can only say that I have spoken to Mr Mvunge a few times. He has applied at least once. I know the first time the form disappeared. He is definitely under the impression that that application was received by the department and he has heard nothing.

My appeal—although it is late—is that this person’s case should be reconsidered on the merits and that justice should be done.

*Mr C I NASSON:

Mr Chairman, I want to take this opportunity to congratulate the hon the Minister and his department on the comprehensive annual report in which the activities of the department are fully explained. I note that the annual report is dedicated to the hon the Minister and signed by Dr Meiring who acted as Director-General for some time. I really regret that he cannot be here this afternoon in support of the hon the Minister.

I also want to take this opportunity to express sincere congratulations to Dr Louw, the newly appointed Director-General of Education and Training. I hope that he will accept the challenge, with the limited means at his disposal, to expand this department to the benefit of the millions of Blacks in this country, who are a less-developed community, who are an underprivileged community, against which there is still much discrimination and which has no representation in the constitutional dispensation of this country.

After the decrease in the number of candidates for the matriculation examination from 18 146 in 1984 to 7 313 in 1985 owing to the nationwide boycott of schools, it is very clear that the department regarded the improvement of matriculation results as a high priority.

It was therefore pleasing to note that entries for the matriculation examination for 1988 had improved and grown remarkably—to a record number of 33 290 candidates with an equally impressive 57% pass rate. I call this figure impressive, in the first place because the unitary expenditure on Black education is only R560 per pupil in comparison with R2 722 in the case of Whites. In the second place, this figure is impressive because there are so many uncertificated teachers in the service of this department, 33,2%. This figure includes all qualifications below Standard 10.

To attain a matriculation pass rate of 57% with such limited means, of which I have just mentioned only a few, is an exceptional achievement and I must pay tribute to the department for this.

I note from the annual report that administrative officials are drawn largely from the ranks of the White population. I appeal to the hon Minister concerned, if it is practicable, to involve more Blacks in the top structure of the Department of Education and Training—in both the head and regional offices. It is pleasing that just the opposite is true regarding the self-governing states, namely that the education departments there are manned by political and administrative officials of their own population groups.

I next want to refer briefly to the Van den Heever Commission’s enquiry into the purchase of the Ivis computer system. The impression which I gained was that this department was very eager to proceed with this project because they wanted to increase the matriculation pass rate but also to upgrade the qualifications of teachers, especially of mathematics. At some stage the department wanted to spend R11 564 750 on this system and it wanted to cut back on building programmes valued at R8 million to purchase this expensive computer system. I am surprised that the hon Minister concerned did not intervene at the time to prevent the purchase of this extremely expensive system.

I also found it surprising that the hon the Minister could approve of the fact that Drs Fourie and Meiring, and also Mr Engelbrecht, could visit the USA at the expense of the Department of Education and Training for three weeks while the congress which they attended there actually lasted only six days. I am convinced that, if more administrative officials from the Black population had been employed in the head office of the department, these irregularities would possibly have been brought to the hon the Minister’s attention earlier.

In my constituency is a school called the N’duli school, which I find characteristic of rural schools in this country. The school is neglected and dilapidated and the educational facilities leave much to be desired. The curriculum of the school extends only to Standard 7, and I understand this. The community is too small to justify a combined school in which the curriculum could extend to Standard 10. I should like to suggest that the department build more hostels at secondary schools in country districts, by means of which secondary school education would be made more accessible to rural pupils. It is disappointing that there is only one hostel attached to a secondary school in the Cape Province.

It is also noted with appreciation that the number of educational regions has been extended but the nearest regional office to Cape Town and rural districts is that in Port Elizabeth. I want to request the hon Minister concerned to establish a regional office in Cape Town.

In the short time that I have known Dr Meiring, he has impressed me greatly as an expert in the field of Black education. I am also convinced that he has played a major part in the enormous development which has taken place in Black education. It is a great pity that he has become enmeshed in the irregularities related to the purchase of the Ivis system.

I want to appeal to the hon Minister concerned and the Government to give him the benefit of the doubt where such doubt might arise concerning his alleged involvement in these irregularities. I want to request, in the interests of Black education in particular and national education in general, that the assets which Dr Meiring offers education in general be listed and evaluated against the mistakes which he has made. As Dr Meiring has not yet been discharged from service, I want to request that consideration be given to retaining him in education when he can be placed again suitably so that his expertise is not lost to education.

Lastly, I want to make a further appeal to the Government this afternoon to do everything in its power to provide a political model which will make it possible for the Black population to participate in a constitutional dispensation in which they themselves may make their own laws at Central Government level. I find it somewhat immoral to consider legislation for Blacks; to consider what is good for them according to our standards, without giving them the opportunity to make their own contributions on matters which affect them very closely.

I find it equally immoral when the hon members of the CP lustily try to make political capital out of such a situation by opposing every piece of legislation regarding Blacks, as the hon member for Potgietersrus indicated here this afternoon too. The type of mentality shown by the CP, especially when our oppressed Black brothers are involved, is rejected by the LP with the contempt it deserves.

Debate interrupted.

The Committee adjourned at 18h33.

PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE—REPRESENTATIVES Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the Chamber of the House of Representatives at 14h15.

Mr P T Sanders, as Chairman, took the Chair and read Prayers.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS—see col 6589.

APPROPRIATION BILL (Consideration of Schedules resumed)

Debate on Vote No 29—“Bureau for Information”:

*The MINISTER OF INFORMATION, BROADCASTING SERVICES AND THE FILM INDUSTRY:

Mr Chairman, I should like to make a few introductory remarks. The Whips gave me to understand that the first part of the debate would be devoted to the Bureau for Information and the second to the broadcasting services and the film industry. I appreciate that that cannot be an absolutely rigid arrangement, but I will adopt that approach by making a few observations on the Bureau for Information first and later in the debate I shall say something about the broadcasting services.

†It has been said that during the 21st century the processing and communication of information will be the major industry just as in the 19th century the industrial revolution was the most significant event. Today we are dealing with a revolution in communication. Governments throughout the world are faced with the problem of how to communicate effectively with their people. It is particularly important that the South African Government should be able to communicate effectively with all the people of this country.

Firstly, our Government needs to communicate effectively in order to identify and promote important interests which our complex population shares and which forms the basis of an emerging national consensus.

Secondly the Government requires special communication skills to participate in the national debate about the constitutional future of South Africa.

Thirdly, many of the problems which our country experiences internally and abroad have their origin in incorrect perceptions about South Africa. These distorted perceptions can best be addressed by effective communication. The main task of the Bureau for Information is to ensure that the SA Government is equipped as well as possible to meet these communication challenges. However, the problem is: How does one communicate in such a complex situation?

*We have the situation where eight different languages are each spoken by at least one million people. None of the languages are spoken by a majority. There are many different cultures and many different levels of development. How does one go about conveying a message that would be understood by one group of people, and at the same time be misunderstood by another group?

The Bureau believes the first point of departure is to have a clear understanding of what it is all about. One needs knowledge of the complexity, attitudes, aspirations and interests of the population. In order to attain this goal, the Bureau regularly undertakes opinion polls and market research. That is one way of listening to the people and it is an important feedback to the Government of the needs of the people. From these surveys it appears that there is a significant degree of shared interests among the population of South Africa. This is the beginning of a national consensus and we should build on it.

The channels employed by the Bureau consist in the first instance of a series of publications— these will be elaborated on later—which include the latest policy review. In the second instance we have the regional offices where the department can communicate with the population of South Africa at grass-roots level by means of participation in exhibitions, information and the facilitating of inter-group relations. At this level we also deal with the guests of the Department of Foreign Affairs.

Thirdly we make use of the national media. We maintain liaison with them in respect of news items. In this regard I should just like to mention that the Department of Information is responsible for overall communication between the authorities and the South African population. However, each State department is also responsible for its own line function communication, and it is of the utmost importance to employ all media in communicating the messages to the population promptly and effectively. In this regard the news media plays an important part, and for this reason sound relations between the news media and the Government are of the utmost importance.

We also make use of advertisements through the news media. This is a more controversial and more recent form of communication which will be elaborated on later. Last year, during the municipal election campaign, the Bureau created 1 200 million opportunities for communication. In other words, 1200 million messages were sent out to the people repeatedly. The costs involved were only half a cent per person per message. Market research indicates that the public supports this form of communication.

We believe in making use of the whole spectrum of communications media. This requires close co-ordination among all State departments. During the past year the Bureau has also gained considerable experience of the management of such campaigns. The municipal election campaign is probably the best example of this, although there are many other examples. In this regard one can say that people’s awareness of the municipal election increased from 25% to more than 80% between May and October last year. That was definitely one of the factors which contributed to the good results we achieved in respect of participation in the election.

I should just like to emphasise that the Bureau at no stage intends to take over the communication efforts of other State departments, but that it is part of our duty to enable other departments to communicate as well as to play a co-ordinating role.

I should just like to touch on one point. In the past I was reproached for not mentioning future appropriations for further communication. I should like to address this point briefly in the sense that the Bureau’s basic budget provides for the standard items such as standard publications and its administrative expenses and so on. There is also a small allowance for ad hoc publications and small ad hoc campaigns. However, the Bureau cannot possibly budget for larger publicity campaigns which may occasionally be necessary, depending on the time and circumstances. For this reason it is often impossible to budget for these extra campaigns and it has to be done additionally. We cannot necessarily discuss that budget in Parliament, since the full particulars are not necessarily ready yet. For example, it seems at first glance as if the Bureau exceeded its budget considerably last year, but actually there was a saving of approximately R300 000 on the standard items. In other words, regarding the standard items, the Bureau stayed within its budget and even showed a small saving, even though it was only about 1%.

In the end, however, more money did pass through the hands of the Bureau, since the Cabinet from time to time decides on larger campaigns on an ad hoc basis—in which case additional money is spent. For example, this year they have already decided in principle on campaigns and research associated with the independence of South West Africa with the implementation of Resolution 435. An amount of R2 million was approved for research, here as well as in South West Africa, and approximately R1,5 million was approved for informing the people of South Africa about the implications of Resolution 435. Initial surveys have revealed great ignorance of the details of the Resolution, even though people support its implementation.

Furthermore, I would like to mention that the Government has in general decided that more money should be voted to raise the level of communication, but as yet no further details are available. As was the case in the past, we will make details of such campaigns available when the time comes. If Parliament is in session at the time, an opportunity will be sought, but if Parliament is not in session, we shall inform the population by means of the Press. In that way all hon members may rest assured that the Bureau is at no stage spending large amounts of money in an unauthorised or underhand way.

*Mr L C ABRAHAMS:

Mr Chairman, the hon the Minister this afternoon mentioned the fact that there are eight main language groups in the country and that it could so easily happen that a message is conveyed or interpreted incorrectly. I wish to state here today that the hon the Minister himself conveyed such an incorrect message last week.

†The hon the Minister of Information, Broadcasting Services and the Film Industry is on record in this Parliament as seeing the task of his department as one which uses the most modern communication methods to project to the country a message of optimism, peace, progress and idealism so that we can take our people into the future with us. As the political head of this department and in the light of the hopeful signs of a new South Africa—which has recently emanated from the NP leader—the hon the Minister’s remarks at a party rally last week poured cold water on both his stated ideals and the hopes which were beginning to emerge after the hon the Minister of National Education was elected as his party’s leader.

What did the hon the Minister of Information, Broadcasting Services and the Film Industry say? At a time when the NP leadership was telling the country that it needed a new Constitution, at a time when the NP leadership was telling the country that Blacks had to be accommodated, at a time when the NP leadership was telling the country that a new South Africa had to be created in which discrimination played no part, he told the meeting in the Meyerton town hall last week that Whites would still be “baas” in South Africa for the rest of this century. [Interjections.]

*The CHAIRMAN:

Order! The hon member at the back will be given an opportunity to make his speech. The hon member for Diamant may proceed.

Mr L C ABRAHAMS:

According to a report in The Star of Friday, 21 April 1989, the hon the Minister told the meeting that the NP believed in democracy and the participation of all groups at Government level. Then, lo and behold, he also—I quote from The Star—“gave the assurance that White South Africans would not be ruled by a Black majority government within the next 10 years”. I repeat that he told them that Whites would still be “baas” in South Africa for the rest of this century.

One cannot have one’s cake and eat it. One cannot call on Black South Africans to come to the negotiating table; one cannot spend thousands of rand to bring Black South Africans to Parliament to see democracy in action as the hon the Minister’s department has demonstrated in the past year. In a country with a Black majority population one cannot tell Blacks that they will be allowed to participate in government, but in the same breath tell them that they are doomed to play a subservient role. One cannot on the one hand tell the world that one wishes to hold a big indaba with South Africa’s Black population, that one wishes to move to a non-discriminatory society in which it is acknowledged that power must be shared, in which it is acknowledged that the Black majority population is part of this future, but on the other hand give White South Africans the assurance that they would not be ruled by a Black majority government within the next 10 years. Let me say it straight out: My party, the LP, has no fear of a Black government in South Africa.

I want to come back to the hon the Minister of Information, Broadcasting Services and the Film Industry. His Vote, which is being considered by this Committee today, no doubt provides funds which will be used to provide communication tools to win over the hearts and minds of Black South Africans to participate in the planned indaba. The various publications which the hon the Minister’s department no doubt will produce will sketch to Black South Africans why participation is necessary. One can only hope that these publications will also be honest and carry the hon the Minister’s assurance that there will be no Black rule in South Africa for the rest of this century, because that is the implication of his words. I have yet to see them repudiated. One can only hope against hope that after the forthcoming election the NP Government will come to its senses for South Africa’s sake and stop believing that Black South Africans will be foolish enough voluntarily to take up a subservient role in government. It just is not done.

If we are to ensure a place for all our children in tomorrow’s South Africa, then it is imperative that we use instruments such as those of the Department for Information to educate White South Africans about the realities of South Africa. We should use the services of the Department for Information to inform White South Africans that they are but one small part of South Africa, that the privileged position they have held in the past cannot continue indefinitely.

We must use the services of the Department of Information to inform White South Africans that more and more Black South Africans are achieving higher and higher educational qualifications and there is no way in which they can continue to hold senior positions merely on the basis of the colour of their skins. We must also use the services of that department to inform White South Africans that the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act is an insult to the majority of South Africans and as such must go. We must further use the services of the Department of Information to inform South Africa as a whole that after the LP leader’s swim at King’s Beach, a special investigating committee was restructured by the relevant Government section to investigate the racial demarcation of beaches in Port Elizabeth. After this specialist committee presented its report, there has been a deadly silence on its findings. Perhaps the Department of Information could liaise with its sister department and break this silence and tell South Africa what this committee’s findings were. Perhaps this specialist committee did the unthinkable and found that Port Elizabeth’s beaches should be open to all. One can only ask whether this was the reason for that deafening silence.

Above all, we must ask the Department of Information to prepare all South Africans to the fact that as much as we deplore violence we cannot wish away groups such as the African National Congress. If we are to ensure a peaceful future for South Africa we must talk to all South Africans and we must start communicating with all interested groups, and that includes Inkatha, the homeland leaders, urban Black councillors, the ANC and the Pan African Congress. We inform South Africans that we cannot wish away these people. We must use the services of the Department of Information to tell people that if there is a substantial number of people with a certain political viewpoint or a certain political stand, we must find a way to accommodate them. We can submit these interest groupings to the laws of the land but we cannot pretend that they are not there.

To my mind it is also the task of the Department of Information to help create a climate in South Africa for a peaceful tomorrow and it does not behove the hon the Minister of Information, in an effort to get at a political opponent, to say at a political meeting that it was difficult to trust “such people who undertake safaris to the ANC in Lusaka”. Let me, however, hasten to add to add that the LP is definitely not soft on security. We have, on the other hand, an intense soft spot for a new and a peaceful South Africa and will urge the Government to use all the instruments of the State to achieve its gold.

*We do not imitate the NP; we say where we stand.

†Let me remind this House of the words of the American Wendel Philips: “When you have convinced thinking men that it is right and humane men that it is just, you will gain your cause. Men always lose half of what is gained by violence. What is gained by argument, on the other hand, is gained for ever.”

I am well aware of the complexities of the society in which the Department of Information has to operate. The hon the Minister alluded to the question of language earlier. There are in our society other fundamental differences, there are inequalities and there are injustices. I am realistic enough to realise that in a complex society such as ours, conflict will be removed with great difficulty. Instead, I believe we should be all actively working towards the constructive accommodation of conflict. We should move to a point in which we can live together with the least amount of violence. I believe the Department of Information can help to create a climate for such a situation. It can do so by being painfully honest to all South Africans, including White South Africans, about the realities and the aspirations of all South Africans. I can still recall the Van der Walt Report on the Vaal Triangle unrest of a few years ago, especially where on p 56 of his report Prof Van der Walt said:

Humanly speaking the entire crisis situation could have been prevented had there not been such an incomprehensible lack of sensitivity and communication.

*This, I believe, is one of the most important tasks of the Department of Information. It must make a concerted effort to promote better communication between the various groups in South Africa. In our conflict situation it must explain to the people that their continued existence does not depend on selfishness; it must explain to them that their continued existence only depends on whether or not other people are given a fair chance to continue their existence as well. I wish to repeat that the individual and not the group is at issue.

In my opinion communication entails far more than giving information; it entails far more than distributing publications and making speeches. Communication essentially concerns meaning; it concerns the exchange of different points of view, and the fact that one can express a particular idea or point of view. I attach a great deal of importance to this, and I want the person, group or audience with whom I communicate, to do the same.

In our complex country communication breakdowns are one of our biggest problems. People—especially politicians, but also economists, clergymen and others—too easily take it for granted that once they have spoken, they have communicated. Talking and writing do not necessarily mean communicating. Communication only takes place when the speaker and the audience—the sender and the receiver—attach the same meaning to the contents of that communication. It serves no purpose other than to create confusion—and I want to underline this— when Government leaders stand up in this Parliament and declare that the Group Areas Act, the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act and the Population Registration Act are obstacles on the road to a new South Africa, and this message is interpreted differently. A few weeks after this initial announcement, when the people outside rejoiced in the belief that something new was to come about, we are now being told that the Act is being implemented as strictly as possible. This is simply not going to work, Sir.

In my opinion we in South Africa miss opportunities by not making sure of the meaning of what has been said, and sometimes, even on purpose, by not making sure whether we understand each other.

Communication essentially concerns enrichment and upliftment. Communication therefore contains an element of salvation. We in this country can derive tremendous benefit from the element of salvation in communication. Let us use it. Let us use the element of caring in communication, and let us use the Department of Information in all its facets to build a better South Africa not only for the benefit of one group.

*Dr P W A MULDER:

Mr Chairman, I am not going to react to the previous speaker; we shall discuss his speech with the hon the Minister on some other occasion.

I want to come back to information and broadcasting. We were under the impression that we could discuss both subjects at the same time. That may be due to a misunderstanding, but I am going to begin with the SABC and then proceed to information. The same applies to my colleagues.

This is the last time that this debate is taking place with Dr Brand Fourie as the Chairman of the Board of the SABC, since he is to retire at the end of June. On behalf of this side of the Committee I want to convey our thanks to him.

The fact that we have often disagreed with him does not mean that we do not appreciate the way in which he has acquitted himself of his task in this difficult position. More than once in the past, when Dr Fourie has retired, it has simply been to re-emerge in a more challenging position. However, the people in the know say it is not true that Dr Fourie is now learning Russian in order to become South Africa’s first ambassador to Russia! We wish him a peaceful retirement.

The CP has already congratulated Mr Harmse on his appointment as Director-General of the SABC; it did so on 6 October last year. I should like to repeat our congratulations on this occasion. Since he and I attended the same school, the Riebeeck High School in Randfontein, and both studied at Potchefstroom University, I am quite hopeful that all will be well with the SABC. He joined the SABC in April 1963, and his more than 25 years’ experience must count in his favour.

When I congratulated him at the time of his appointment, I said that he had two important tasks, namely to put the SABC’s financial affairs in order and to restore the credibility of the SABC. When we look at the financial position, we see that it has been put in order. A large profit has even been made. In particular, I consider it an achievement that operating expenditure went up by only 8,8% compared with the amount for 1987. I must congratulate Mr Harmse and Dr Fourie on this, although it stands to reason that Mr Eksteen also had a share in it.

With regard to the second task, concerning the credibility of the news and the objectivity of the SABC, the situation has deteriorated. The SABC’s news services in particular are blatantly and no longer subtly biased in favour of the Government and against other political parties. I would not lightly make such a statement if I could not prove it. What makes the situation so serious is the fact that all political parties must rely on the objectivity of the SABC during the coming election. Going into the election with a biased television service makes a mockery of democracy and puts us in the same category as the communist countries and the Third World dictatorships. In the past, we were assured by the SABC Board and the Director-General that no written instructions were given to the news section to present the Government in a positive and other parties in a negative light. I am prepared to accept that. However, this does not mean that there is no favouritism. I submit that the problem lies in the news section itself. Over the years, a certain spirit or attitude has been created within the organisation. I said in this debate last year that every reporter and every cameraman at the SABC was applying selfcensorship all the time, because they knew what was regarded as acceptable within their organisation and what was not. Such a person also knows that if he were to deviate from this unwritten policy, he would be running the risk of being Eksteened or Robinsoned. I worked in the news section of the SABC for a short while myself and I know what I am talking about when I say that. However, it is within the power of the SABC Board and the Director-General to break this spirit or attitude within the organisation and to replace it with a striving for objectivity.

With the new television news training and the new news policy, this problem can be addressed. I should like to learn more about the new news policy of the SABC which is referred to on page 47 of the annual report. I want to ask a few questions about this news policy.

In the first place, does the SABC have a specific news policy in respect of the use of photographs or slides of persons during newscasts? Why do the Government speakers always appear on the screen with a friendly expression and a halo of background lighting, while opposition members look flustered and unkempt? We have offered our co-operation in this regard in the past, but without success.

In the second place, what is the policy in respect of the showing of the emblems, slogans and logos of political parties while news concerning the parties is being televised? At NP congresses, the cameras zoom in on the NP slogans and emblems, while at opposition congresses, one can hardly make out whether there are any people present.

Thirdly, I want to know whether the policy contains any guidelines as to what is regarded as newsworthy for the purposes of television news and what is not. That could help reporters in their selection of what qualifies as news and what does not. I want to mention a few examples. On 29 November 1988, the SABC television news service televised a report about a school committee meeting at Pietersburg which had been won by the NP. At best, this may qualify as news for the local newspaper, but not for a country-wide television service. When subsequently we sent in reports on three committee elections which had been won by the CP, it was said that this was not news because no change had taken place. Soon after that, fortunately for the SABC, the CP won a school committee election at Ermelo by replacing eight NP members with young CPs. The SABC did not broadcast this, saying that it would have to lay down a policy on the matter, since not all school election results could be broadcast!

I shall mention another example. The Pietersburg town council consists of five CPs and four NPs. On 17 February 1989, there was a news report on television on a motion of no confidence in the Pietersburg town council which had been defeated by five to four. That was a non-event, since it only confirmed the status quo. In spite of that, the NP spokesman was afforded plenty of time to explain why the motion had been moved, without the CP’s side of the matter being heard. If the situation were to be reversed and the CP were to move motions of no confidence in all the town and city councils on which we are represented but which we do not control, would CP spokesmen be given the opportunity, after the motions had been defeated, of saying what the motions had been about, without any reaction from the other side? Still on the subject of selection, is there any truth in the newspaper stories according to which the television cameraman who went to cover the by-election for Carolina town council switched his camera off when the result was announced and it proved to be a CP victory? The fact that he was sent there and that nothing was shown about the result on the television news would seem to confirm our suspicion.

In the fourth place, I want to know what the news section’s policy is in respect of the sequence in which speakers are announced or take part in a news report. Can it be coincidence that the NP spokesman always has the last word? In a recent programme on problems in Johannesburg the objectors aired objections which were then replied to at the end of the programme by the then chairman of the management committee, Mr Danie van Zyl.

On 21 February 1989, in a similar television programme on Boksburg, the television news was fair enough to give the CP chairman of the management committee a chance to reply to the objections of the Alliance. After his reply, however, the programme was not concluded but his standpoints were conveyed by the reporter to the chairman of the objectors so that the latter could reply to it, without any further opportunity for reply on the part of the CP. Precisely the same pattern was repeated two weeks later in a programme on Carletonville.

Fifthly, what is the news policy of the SABC in respect of the reaction of speakers to one another? Every opposition member who grants the Network team an interview runs the risk of having every statement he makes presented to a Government spokesman for reaction. Time and again this reply to his arguments is then edited in after he has appeared on the programme. Network’s programme on partition, telecast on 2 April, is an excellent example of this, with the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning as the great expert on partition who reacted to every pro-partition statement and who of course provided the long, summarising conclusion at the end. Is there a possibility that a similar programme could be made on NP policy, with the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly as the expert on powersharing making the summarising conclusion at the end?

The very next night, 3 April 1989, this technique was repeated when the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs stated his standpoint on South West Africa. After that the standpoint of the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly, which had been recorded earlier during the day, was broadcast. Directly afterwards the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs was to be seen again, making a derogatory, direct reaction to the standpoint of the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly. Subsequently the hon the Minister’s satisfaction with the news broadcast was conveyed to a complacent news team by Christo Kritzinger. What are the chances of an opposition member being afforded such an opportunity to state his case and afterwards being informed about what the Minister had said in reply so that he in turn can react and in that way have the last word? This is precisely the opportunity which the hon Ministers received in the previous two examples.

Sixthly, what is the SABC’s news policy in respect of the choice of academics to take part in discussion programmes? For the first time in a long while an academic with conservative leanings, Prof Hercules Booysen, participated in a discussion programme on Network on 19 February 1989. Of course he did not get the final word, but he was at least able to participate. Is there any hope of such an academic appearing again this year, or is Prof Strauss, as a criminal law expert, again going to inform us about criminal law matters as he did during the referendum?

Mr Chairman, I can continue to enumerate examples but my time is limited. I want to quote Mr Tony Sanderson, a former television presenter, in an interview with the Sunday Times of 15 January 1989 in this connection:

The problem with the SABC is that there is a middle-management block. Everyone is afraid of doing anything that might even be construed as controversial. They are all afraid of losing their jobs. I had no scope, no freedom.

I want to repeat what I said at the start. The hon the Minister, the SABC Board and the Director-General can replace this organisational culture— the pro-Government spirit in the news department—with a striving for greater objectivity by means of purposeful action, a clear news policy and sound staff appointments. If a strong standpoint is adopted the news staff will also have greater freedom of movement without fear of interference from above. This would enhance the credibility of the SABC and would be to the benefit of everyone.

Mr Chairman, our objection that justice cannot be done to democracy in South Africa owing to this hon Minister does not stop with the SABC. We also have objections to the way in which the Government and this hon Minister use the Bureau for Information to favour the Government and in that way make a mockery of democracy. This does not mean that we are opposed to the establishment of a state information service. In the past the CP has on various occasions indicated that we believe that a modern state should communicate professionally both at home and abroad. State information services have become essential to the modern state as a result of various twentieth century developments.

Now that Mr Schlebusch is no longer with us, and now that leave has been taken of the hon the State President, against his will, during the debate on his Vote last week, the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs is the only person who was involved in the Information debacle.

In my opinion the time is ripe for the Bureau to begin a comprehensive foreign information service in the interests of South Africa again. Many of its activities are already for use abroad, as is indicated on pages 6 and 7 of the annual report. As a full-fledged department the main task of the Bureau ought to lie there, and not in the dissemination of information inside South Africa. Most of the problems in fact lie in internal liaison by democratic State authorities. For successful internal liaison the State authorities must apply taxpayers’ money to proclaim Government policy without giving one political party an unfair advantage over another. Senator Fulbright of America expressed it as follows: “There is something basically unwise and undemocratic about a system which taxes the public to finance a propaganda campaign aimed at persuading the same taxpayers that they must spend more tax dollars to subvert their independent judgement.”

Cutlip, a well-known author on public relations work, sums up the fears of opposition parties throughout the world as follows: “The outparty fears the power of an army of propagandists in keeping the ins in and the outs out.”

When the CP approves of the existence of a state information service we qualify it immediately by saying that a stringent policy must be laid down by the Government and the Minister in question on how this service may be utilised internally. I want to ask the hon the Minister whether such a communications policy exists within the Bureau, a policy which can serve as a guideline to every employee when he decides on a publicity campaign, a Ministerial instruction or the contents of a publication. This policy must indicate what is considered to be party propaganda and what Cabinet information. I am aware that some hon members on that side maintain that a governing party cannot distinguish between party propaganda and Government information. The one guideline which ought to apply here is that government information consists of matters that have already passed through the legislative process and which are now, upon implementation, going to affect every citizen of the country regardless of the standpoints of various political parties. Matters which are still merely being contemplated by political parties as future possibilities must be disseminated, at party expense, by the party’s own information service.

The CP maintains that this hon Minister and the NP are misusing the Bureau for Information for party-political advantage and are not applying the basic rules as set out above. What is worse is that it is not out of ignorance that they are struggling to distinguish between party-political propaganda and State information, but that it is being done calculatedly. After we had struggled for a long time to get a clear standpoint in principle on this matter from the Minister I was delighted when the hon the Minister stated this principle as follows in the introductory edition of RSA Beleidsoorsig in May of last year:

Die Buro sal steeds ’n onderskeid tref tussen suiwer partypolitieke beleid en Regeringsbe-leid. Regeringsbeleid verskil van partybeleid omdat dit die beleid is wat deur die Parlement bekragtig is.

Sir, as we have come to know the NP during the past few years, what it says and promises has no bearing on what it does. We should have known that this would also happen with the Bureau. The signs of the way in which the Bureau was being misused were clear when a motion was introduced in the NP congress in the Transvaal last year asking the hon the Minister of Information to market the NP policy more effectively. The fact that the hon the Minister of Information and not the hon member for Springs or anyone from the NP’s information service in the Transvaal dealt with the motion at a party political congress demonstrates that party’s line of thinking in regard to these matters.

In my limited time I want to mention only one example to prove my point. Own residential areas, mixed residential areas and the Group Areas Act were the main issues on which the municipal election was fought in the White communities last year. On 3 June 1988, in the heat of this election campaign, a full-page Bureau for Information advertisement on group areas appeared in several Sunday newspapers. The money of taxpayers from all political parties is being used to benefit the NP. Let us apply the hon the Minister’s own criterion as I quoted him above when he said:

Regeringsbeleid verskil van partybeleid omdat dit die beleid is wat deur die Parlement bekragtig is.

In July last year the Parliament had not even met for the first time to try to reach agreement on the trilogy of laws, including the amendments to the Group Areas Act. At that stage the policy had not yet, to quote the hon the Minister, “been ratified by Parliament”. The advertisement stated:

The Government has undertaken to ensure … an own community life and land ownership and to safeguard the existing rights of both individuals and communities. The Group Areas Act is now being amended to achieve this goal.

What are the facts? Here where we are today, almost a year later, those so-called teeth which were to have been given to the Group Areas Act in order to comply with the promise in this advertisement have not yet been given to it. I say that this is never going to be done.

These advertisements cost thousands of rands. All that is happening here, according to the hon the Minister’s own definition of information and propaganda, is that the public money of taxpayers is being utilised to make NP promises to the voters in the short term as propaganda with a view to the municipal elections. On 4 July 1988 I made a statement about the advertisements on behalf of the CP. I want to quote only one paragraph from it:

Wat nog erger is, is dat die hele veldtog ’n verdere vermorsing van belastingbetalersgeld mag wees as die voorgestelde wetswysiging in die staande komitee of deur die Parlement verander of nie aanvaar sou word nie.

That is precisely what happened.

As if that was not bad enough, the loyal SABC, the other leg of the hon the Minister’s responsibility, made a great fuss about these advertisements on Network that evening. There was nothing new in the advertisement which had not previously been publicised on television as NP plans. According to what definition of news this old news became fresh news I do not know. Because what the advertisement promised had never happened, it was not news but pure election propaganda which the loyal SABC noised abroad as his master’s voice.

Does this mean that advertisements which the CP places with a view to the election will also in future feature on SABC news bulletins?

As if that was not bad enough full-page advertisements appeared the next day, the Monday after the advertisements of the Bureau on Sunday, and after the SABC’s support in Network. These full-page newspapers on groups areas had been compiled by the NP information service of the hon member for Springs and appeared in the dailies.

How did the NP information service know that the Bureau was going to place advertisements that Sunday? How did they know the advertisement was going to deal with group areas? Of course this combined campaign must have had an effect on the election result. Will the opposition parties in future receive advance knowledge from the Bureau when it places such advertisements, so that we can arrange to state our standpoint the day after?

It was against this background that the chief of the Bureau, Mr Steward, stated on page 14 of the RSA Beleidsoorsig of October:

Die bewering dat die Buro ’n partypolitieke instrument is wat na willekeur deur die Nasionale Party ingespan kan word, is egter van alle waarheid ontbloot. Dit spruit of uit pure moedswilligheid of uit skreiende onkunde.

I challenge anyone to refute the facts that have been stated above.

I repeat what I said here. This hon Minister and the NP are misusing the Bureau for Information in a shocking way for party-political benefit and are not applying their own basic rules, as set out above. Going into the election with a unilateral television service and the Bureau for Information which is unable to comply with basic democratic rules, makes a mockery of democracy and places us in the same category as the communist countries and Third World dictatorships.

The responsibility and the solution lie with this hon Minister who, in the case of both the SABC and the Bureau, should lay down a communication policy curbing the misuse of these organisations. This would make it easier for the employees of the two organisations to know within what parameters they may operate. As the Official Opposition we can then in future test our criticism of the SABC and the Bureau for Information on the basis of this specific policy.

Mr Y I SEEDAT:

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke will forgive me if I do not react to his speech which in the main centred around the reporting or non-reporting of news by the SABC. The hon member and his party are apparently peeved and are questioning the neglect on the part of the SABC-TV. I expect more will be said in this respect in the discussion of the SABC-TV as such tomorrow.

We are informed that publications emanating from this department are being circulated far and wide. For obvious reasons the sponsors’ word— or to quote the previous speaker, “his Master’s Voice”—has to be promoted. However, I am of the opinion that publications, and in particular RSA Policy Review, need to be divorced from the run of the mill NP policy mouthpieces. Allow me to qualify this, Sir.

On a visit to Europe during a Parliamentary Association tour, I found a misinformed and uninformed community outside. The standpoints and principles of the majority parties in the Houses of Representatives and Delegates were either unknown or misunderstood. Fortunately for Inkatha the frequent and, may I add necessary and beneficial visits abroad made by Dr Buthelezi helped to place its principles, aims and objects in perspective.

I believe the inclusion in RSA Policy Review of interviews and comments of the Chairmen and Ministers of the other two Houses would create a better understanding of the Republic of South Africa. After all, it is not only the House of Assembly that constitutes Parliament. The hon the Minister needs to look at the desirability of publishing interviews with other individuals, including leaders of the opposition parties in Parliament, and other MPs too.

The following is said in the introduction to the Bureau’s annual report and I wish to quote with reference to the publication RSA Policy Review:

The publication will provide the Government with a high-level platform for the articulation and communication of Government policy.

It is obvious that, as an arm of the Government, the Bureau for Information will articulate Government policy. However, in order to understand Government policy and to appreciate the reasons for such policy it is necessary to make known the views and the counter-arguments of other participants within the system.

South Africa has many friends in the outside world and they are waiting to be informed on the factual situation inside this country. Let me tell this Committee that we met many influential and respected persons on the tour who are completely misinformed. They were taken aback when I agreed with them in their call for the release of Mr Nelson Mandela unconditionally.

Apparently many believed that all Brown people participating in the tricameral Parliament subscribed fully to Government policy and were therefore acceptable to the NP. They were surprised and pleased to learn that the Government not only tolerated but also accepted Ministers’ Councils that were at variance with Government policy and on many issues at that, too. There is no denying that participation in this tricameral Parliament has contributed to many positive moves on the part of Government. There is also no denying the fact that the introduction of discriminatory legislation has been checked since the advent of the tricameral system.

In the world outside many influential people in government are crying out for objective and factual reporting of the South African scene. Let us not do what the Government of South Africa accuses others of doing: Withholding facts about the changes in South Africa, a country that has to be seen and visited to be appreciated and assisted.

A lot has to be done in the much publicised reform process. However, nobody can deny that a start has been made and that, most importantly, there is no turning back the clock. Let us tell it as it is. The Government has everything to gain by being honest.

The hon the Minister referred to the Bureau’s role in the October municipal elections in 1988. I concede that the advertising campaign undertaken by the hon the Minister’s department contributed to a certain extent to the success of those elections. I say “success” in inverted commas because it is a matter of opinion as to whether those elections were a success or not. Their success from one angle or lack of success from another angle is a matter of opinion.

I do believe though that it is vitally important for the Bureau of Information to embark on a similar project with reference to the forthcoming general elections. It would be necessary to inform people of the need to submit change of address forms. We must assure voters that their votes are not going to be cast like before, but that they are going to be afforded complete anonymity when voting, whether it be special, postal or on the day of election itself.

The House of Delegates and I do believe my hon colleagues from the House of Representatives will testify to the need for embarking on this project. During the election in 1984 and subsequent by-elections we were faced with the mammoth task of getting voters to the polls. Intimidation was rife. Here the department of the hon the Minister can play a very leading role.

As far as the department’s or the Bureau’s activities with guests are concerned, we have from time to time had the pleasure of meeting with guests who have come to our offices via the Bureau for Information. As I have said, we have been pleased to meet with them. However, the thought that lingers in my mind is whether there is a system of referral after the guests have left the country. Do we get any feedback from them at the end of their visit to South Africa? What were their impressions? Were they afforded the opportunity really to come out to South Africa, in other words to glean what South Africa is really about or was it just a wasted exercise?

Once we know where we are heading as far as foreign guests are concerned, I believe more pragmatic approaches could be instituted. In this respect I must compliment the hon the Minister and his department on the delightful and charming, if I may put it this way, escorts—escorts of course in inverted commas; I do not want the hon the Minister to get me wrong—who accompany these guests to our offices. It is said that first impressions are lasting. It is with these ladies from the hon the Minister’s department that the guests have their first contact with South Africa. It is therefore very important that these ladies should not only be well-groomed, but also well-educated; educated in the sense that they are aware of South Africa as seen from the viewpoint of all its inhabitants. I do not believe the ladies are there to project NP policy; I have not heard them doing it yet. They are representing South Africa as well as the bureau.

The Bureau of Information needs to have a new look at some of its publications, publications that can give a totally different viewpoint of the South African situation. I would like to see at some stage in a publication interviews with leaders of the pro-and anti-factions. Let the world decide for itself. I think we in South Africa, and especially the Government, are guilty of this. They have been hiding behind an imaginary tree. The world can see them, but they believe they are out of sight. I do not want to cross swords with our colleagues from the CP, but the fact of the matter is that our Government is obsessed with the CP’s thinking. They are obsessed with the idea that the CP is the biggest threat.

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

Are we not?

Mr Y I SEEDAT:

No, they are not. The hon member is a nice man. it is just his policy that is wrong.

The NP, like any other party in Parliament, has a role to play. We concede that the NP Government has done a lot towards reform, but why is it stalling? The message that came through, and my hon colleagues who were with me on the trip overseas will agree that this was indeed the message that came through, was that we should tell our Government that the world could see that the road the Government has taken, was the right road—the road to reform. However, the Government should not stagnate; they should remember that they have friends overseas, provided they were able to carry on on that road.

We have friends abroad who are waiting to be taken in. Let us not drop them. Let us show them that we are able to go the full way to reform. Let us show them that we can accommodate people of different thoughts. We owe it not only to ourselves, but also to the world outside who are prepared to stand by us. Let us not allow the coming generations to accuse us of having failed them. Those in the House of Representatives and the House of Delegates have come into this system with great sacrifice.

We do not have to spell it out. I think the hon the Minister’s department, being the Department for Information, will be aware of the sacrifices that we have made—personally and otherwise. We do not expect people to thank us for it. It is our duty to serve our country. However, let us not at the end of the day arrive at a situation in which we will ask ourselves: “Do we have to continue on this road which is getting us nowhere?” I would like to ask the hon the Minister and his department to present things as they are and let us win friends from the outside and the inside, as the hon member for Diamant said. It is for us to propagate this within the country as well us outside the country. Let those within the country also know where we are heading. Let us play open cards. The hon the Minister will have our support if he continues with objective reporting of the South African scene.

Mr P W COETZER:

Mr Chairman, the hon member Mr Seedat will pardon me if I do not follow on him directly.

*Firstly I want to link up with the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke and address a few words to Dr Brand Fourie, seeing that this is the last debate on this Vote in which he will be the Chairman of the SABC. He certainly has a remarkable career behind him. He has made his mark in South African history and lived through and played an influential part in important aspects of South African history.

He is probably watching developments in South West Africa with great interest. It was during the first discussions on South West Africa, which culminated in Resolution 435, that I was privileged as a young journalist on my way to New York to be stranded with Dr Fourie in Detroit for four days because of a snow-storm. He held me spellbound with his interesting conversation. I was very grateful to learn from Dr Fourie that he does not intend to be idle during his retirement but is going to write a book about his experiences. We look forward to this with great expectation and on behalf of this side of the Committee I want to wish him, his wife and his family a pleasant and productive retirement.

I should also like to associate myself with the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke’s renewed congratulations to Prof Viljoen, the new chairman, and wish him everything of the best. For the time being I only want to say a few words about the SABC because I shall have more to say about the SABC later. Hon members on this side of the committee concentrated firstly on the Bureau for Information. I shall come back to certain matters concerning the SABC later on in this debate.

As regards the congratulations to Prof Viljoen I merely want to tell the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke that his congratulations sounded a little hollow against the background of the behaviour of a colleague of his last year. I think the hon member for Overvaal at least owes the Board of the SABC an apology. What did he do in this debate last year? In his typically crude way he tried to assail the human dignity and insult the integrity of the members of the Board of the SABC. [Interjections.] He described them without exception as “NP-klipvreters”.

*Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

But that is what they are.

*Mr P W COETZER:

That was the language he used, and he is now confirming it. This was recorded on 1 June of last year in Hansard, col 12091. Who are these people whose integrity was rejected and written off by the hon member in a single insulting sentence? They are people like the former Chaplain-General, Maj Gen J H van Zyl, and Prof Viljoen himself, to whom the hon member has just referred in such glowing terms. They are people like Dr Fourie who has rendered decades of unselfish service to South Africa. Then there are also people like Mr Hendrik Sloet, Mr Gordon Hughes, Miss Mimi Coertze, or Mrs Ackerman, Prof H W van der Merwe Scholtz.

*Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

All Nats!

*Mr P W COETZER:

We reject the hon member for Overvaal’s style, not only as crude, but also as obnoxious and superficial.

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

[Inaudible.]

*Mr P W COETZER:

And undignified. If he had a grain of refinement in him, he would apologise to these people for that remark. [Interjections.]

I should like to come back to the Bureau for Information. A communications expert stated recently that it was accepted nowadays that the modern state had to communicate with its subjects at home and abroad. This communication must take place in a professional way. The same communications expert also stated that it was believed that the State could successfully fulfil its communication function only with an information division which handled both the domestic and the foreign communication function.

This communications expert therefore accepts that the State has a task and a duty to communicate in a professional way with its subjects, or its citizens. One can argue about whether this task, both domestic and foreign, should be totally the task of the same information organisation. However, I want to agree fully that the Bureau for Information, as an instrument of the State, must communicate with its subjects at home.

I also want to agree with this communications expert as regards another statement he made, namely that the liaison and communication of the Government of the day inside South Africa is extremely important for democratic reasons, and that it is also possible in practice to differentiate clearly between Government information and party-political propaganda. [Interjections.] Yes.

This communications expert to whom I am referring is none other than the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke. [Interjections.]

*Dr P W A MULDER:

I repeated all that today.

*Mr P W COETZER:

Fine! [Interjections.] During last year’s debate on the same Vote—I assume that I do not have to give hon members the Hansard reference—interestingly enough the hon member went on to allege, as he also did today, that the Government was guilty of misusing the Bureau for party-political propaganda which it presented as State information. [Interjections.] We shall get around to that later. [Interjections.] This year he at least tried to quote examples whereas he did not do so last year. [Interjections.]

In all fairness to the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke it must be said that he did submit that it was possible, although very difficult, to differentiate between State information and party propaganda. However, if the hon member wants to be intellectually honest, I think he owes it to this Committee to share his knowledge and insight with us at some stage or other as to where he and his party feel the dividing line is between State information …

*Dr P W A MULDER:

I did so this afternoon.

*Mr P W COETZER:

The hon member must listen to the question before he replies! … and propaganda for the party which also constitutes the Government of the day. [Interjections.]

Last year I stated my standpoint and that of this side of the Committee on this matter, on the basis of examples. We can only have a meaningful debate on this matter if the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke and his party abandon their present purely negative, rather backbiting approach and adopt clear standpoints of principle as to where they see this dividing line. Let us argue the point on the basis of a concrete example.

*Dr P W A MULDER:

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon member?

*Mr P W COETZER:

Mr Chairman, we are both going to participate in the debate again later. He is welcome to put his question the next time he speaks and then I will react to it.

Let us now argue this point on the basis of a concrete example. Hon members will agree with me that the Government of the day has the right and the duty to encourage the people to participate in the democratic process.

It is certainly justified in encouraging people to register as voters and to participate in elections. It is certainly also the duty of the Government to encourage and motivate and convince them of the importance of their votes in an election. Now it is interesting that in the lead-up to last year’s municipal election the Government fulfilled its task and duty to bring the importance of municipal elections to the attention of the electorate. People were merely encouraged to participate in the elections by means of an extensive advertising campaign. No specific party’s cause was promoted.

However, the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke’s party did its utmost to drag this effort down to the level of party politics. In both their speeches and their propaganda documents they did their utmost to cast suspicion on this effort. They distorted logic as much as they could and turned it upside down in an effort to suggest that that advertising campaign, to encourage people to participate in the municipal election, would be to the benefit of the NP. If the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke, of his own accord, as a communications expert, admits that the authorities have a communication task in State information, he owes it to his own intellectual integrity to resist such efforts by his party to subvert the information task of the State.

If there is one matter of policy on which the NP and the CP are agreed, it is that Black communities must have their own totally autonomous local government bodies. The advertising campaign in connection with the municipal election was specifically aimed at promoting and introducing participation in these communities—specifically these communities which do not have the same democratic election tradition and separate political infrastructure which the White community has. The latter is very important and I shall return to this later. Why was there therefore this attempt by both the left-wing and the right-wing opposition to attack this campaign? It is beyond understanding.

This advertising campaign was not only designed by professional experts, but also achieved tremendous success and the hon the Minister referred earlier today to the fact that the level of awareness in the Black community rose from 25% to 80% as regards the municipal elections, in the course of that advertising campaign. This is a dramatic improvement in the position. Certainly one must concede at once that the participation in the eventual election itself did not achieve the same success and that here and there it was even occasionally disappointing. However, it would not be fair to ascribe this to the campaign or to measure the success of the advertising campaign against this. Awareness is one thing. Any practising politician will grant me that.

Awareness of an election is one thing, but mobilisation of the voters to get them to the polling station is another matter entirely. That is not the task of the Bureau for Information or the State. This is where we come to the parting of the ways, however, and it becomes the task of the political organisation or the political party to mobilise the people, after they have been made aware of the election, and get them to the polling station. At this stage we do not have the same party-political infrastructure in the Black community that we have in the White community.

This will change. This heightened awareness, which has been achieved, inter alia, by the advertising campaign of the Bureau, is the basis on which one can expect more purposeful partypolitical organisation to develop in the Black community in future. As a matter of fact, the first signs are there. For that reason I want to congratulate the hon the Minister and the Bureau on a job well done in respect of the municipal election. They successfully carried out their mandate to increase the awareness of the population as to the importance of those elections. South Africa has, and will in future, reap the benefits of their contribution to establishing and promoting the democratic way of life among all communities in the country.

I should like to come back to a matter which was touched on in this debate last year too. At that stage I argued that the Bureau for Information had a particular task in respect of the coordination of the communication programmes of the different State departments. We also argued that the time had come, and this is also a matter on which the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke and I are in agreement, for serious attention to be given to increasing the status of the Bureau for Information to that of a full-fledged State department. [Time expired.]

Mr P G SOAL:

Mr Chairman, I will not comment directly on the issues raised by the hon member for Springs, but will offer my own thoughts on some of the issues during the course of my address.

The Bureau does not appear to have had a very productive year. When one examines the annual report of the Bureau and the cuttings file, one finds that it has slipped into a trough of pumping out Nat propaganda. Any pretence it might have had of being a genuine information agency, particularly during the time Mr Louis Nel was the head, has disappeared like the morning mist. I note, incidentally, that Mr Louis Nel might be making a re-entry and I wait with great anticipation to see whether he will become involved in the affairs of the Bureau once again.

The Bureau has been in existence for three years and the budget has grown from R28,849 million to R47,964 million. That represents an increase of R19,115 million or 66,25% in three years. This increase would be regarded as substantial in anyone’s language, but for this free-spending Government, hell-bent on squandering taxpayers’ money to entrench their own position, it is regarded as necessary to boost their flagging image.

This is not only my point of view, but the impression of the Schweizer-Reneke branch of the NP who introduced a motion at the Transvaal congress of the NP urging the Government to “market the National Party’s policy more effectively”. There one has it—R48 million is not enough! The Government must spend more of the taxpayers’ money to promote the policies of the NP. This is not my interpretation, but comes from a newspaper report on the activities of the Transvaal congress of the NP.

As if that was not enough to embarrass the Bureau into retreating into some sort of anonymity, it became involved when the NP elected a new “hoofleier” earlier this year, and a news conference was arranged to make the announcement. The election of the leader of the NP has nothing to do with the State and is a purely party-political occasion. However, this does not apply to the Bureau—when it comes to pleasing their political bosses, nothing is spared to ensure the propaganda is finely tuned.

When I drew attention to errors in the advertisements the Bureau placed in newspapers last year to promote the NP’s policy of separate local authorities, an apology was demanded of me. The dates in the advertisements were changed because I was correct, but I was required to apologise for their mistake! I was told I should contact the Bureau to ascertain the facts before making a statement.

It is well-known to the Bureau that I am the information spokesman for my party. I doubt there can be any confusion about this, not when one takes into account the number of occasions the hon the Minister issues press statements responding to me or challenging me to apologise for his mistakes, or when the Bureau writes articles for him attacking me.

Let us assume, therefore, that the Bureau is aware that I am the spokesman for my party. Let me then ask the hon the Minister on how many occasions the Bureau has approached me to advise me of the content of a brochure, report or one of their programmes. It is not unusual in parliamentary practice for the spokesmen of opposition parties to be notified in advance of developments. Why does the hon the Minister host a snoekbraai for foreign correspondents at the beginning of the session and not ask members of the opposition parties to attend? Does he think that we do not have a point of view to express? I believe that was a petty reaction on the part of the hon the Minister, but then, one has come to expect petty reactions from him and his Bureau.

This is not the reaction of other departments, many of whom go out of their way to co-operate. One department has had a problem this year with the printing arrangements for its annual report. I received a rough proof copy under cover of a personal letter of the Minister explaining the situation and expressing the hope that the rough copy would be adequate in preparing for the debate. I am aware that on one of the budgets for another department senior officials of the department briefed opposition members on details of the budget to be delivered by the Minister a few hours before the presentation. Many other departments make it their business to keep spokesmen and study groups informed and up to date on what is happening in their departments, but not the Bureau for Information.

The only occasion on which I have had contact with the Bureau is when I have taken the initiative to ask if I may attend an international news conference or when I asked to see Deputy Minister Nel to discuss a project. On only one occasion have I been approached by the Bureau to discuss their activities. I have no doubt, however, that they contact NP members of Parliament to apprise them of the Bureau’s activities. I think the Bureau regards the opposition spokesmen as the enemy.

I want to raise the question of last year’s advertising campaign to promote the NP’s policy of separate local authorities and the response of the hon the Minister to my criticisms. He complained that I had a knee-jerk reaction to the activities of the Bureau. This is incorrect. My reaction to the activities of the Bureau is to measure them against the yardstick of NP propaganda. The hon the Minister and the Bureau have gone to a great deal of trouble to quote from a survey to prove that the squirrels program was popular and justified. Sir, surveys can be made to prove whatever one wants them prove. Like accountants they can make figures prove anything they wish to. I believe that if there had been a 10% poll last year the hon the Minister would have claimed success. I prefer the conclusions reached by Ann Maggs of the Sunday Star who quoted research indicating that the awareness of the campaign was exceptionally good although the “liking level” was low. Say what you like; the aim of the project was to promote the NP policy of apartheid-style separate local authorities.

I believe the NP is determined to force its policy on the people of this country and it will use the Bureau to sweeten the pill. The Bureau was involved when Mr F W de Klerk became the “hoofleier” and the Bureau will be used to promote his image. Just as the Bureau was used to promote NP policy of apartheid local councils it was used to promote group areas legislation in a series of advertisements last July causing the Cape Times to comment that thy were in particularly poor taste. The Argus accused the Government of acting recklessly. This, however, will not deter the Nats. In the coming election they will misappropriate more public money—as The Argus puts it—to promote the NP in general and the fortunes of Mr De Klerk in particular— regardless of the fact that Mr De Klerk refuses to come off the fence and say exactly where he stands on reform. The Government will abuse taxpayers’ money and the Bureau to promote him as a knight in shining armour.

This we are not prepared to be a part of. The Government has no money to susidize bread, the staple diet of the poor, but it has R48 million to squander on NP propaganda through the Bureau for Information. The price of petrol increases almost weekly, GST is increased by 1% causing housewives to cut back on their food purchases, but the NP propaganda machine persists in lavishing R48 million on their own propaganda. Their own white hope, the hon the Minister of National Education, announces that there is no money to pursue the ten-year programme of equalising education for all our children—a programme surely to be attacked with great vigour—but there is R48 million to promote the sectional policies of the NP. There is no increase for old-age pensions in this year’s budget, but the NP Government appropriates R48 million to promote the divisive policies of the NP. We cannot be part of the disgraceful state of affairs and we will not support this Budget Vote. South Africa cannot afford to pay R48 million for NP propaganda. We do not need it.

*The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND CULTURE (Representatives):

Mr Chairman, at the outset it is a pleasure to refer to the part our department plays in distributing information, not only locally, but also overseas. I therefore want to thank Dr Koornhof for the contribution he makes in Washington. It is probably a greater task than that of the Department of Information in South Africa. Dr Koornhof should know that we appreciate his contribution and assistance when we call on him in Washington during our overseas visits.

The hon the Minister must certainly have difficulties in trying to identify the Government, because I do not think that the department always represents the present Government in all its forms. In our endeavour towards the creation of a new South Africa, we experience certain problems with the department in a changing world and climate. The problem is that every advertisement placed by the Department of Information is always to the advantage of the NP. I do not think the Bureau places advertisements which reflect the viewpoints of the other governing parties in the respective Houses.

I do not want to start on that a note, however. I believe the hon the Minister has an open mind as regards criticism. I also believe that I am capable of admitting to him that many of his other programmes, especially with reference to foreign visitors to our country, mean a great deal to South Africa. I therefore believe that the hon the Minister should be criticised. I also think he should be assisted and that more funds should be allocated in order to extend that programme. My problem with his department, however, is that more appointments should be made from the Black and Coloured communities so that they can also receive guests. Then overseas visitors will probably gain a broader insight into South Africa and have a clearer idea of the reform message.

The hon the Minister should be careful not to create the impression that only Whites can convey the reform message. The hon the Minister must be aware of the fact that many of us in Parliament convey the reform message much faster than even the NP does at this stage. We believe in reform. The hon the Minister is probably still bogged down as a result of the opposition he encounters in the House of Assembly.

Communication definitely offers a challenge in our present political dispensation. Communication is a problem which we experience in our social and economic structures. I therefore believe that communication should also be extended to the broader community. I do not believe that we should stick to communication on a certain level only.

At present communication is intended mainly for a specific group in our community and many of the non-developed groups in our community are not taken into account. The challenges facing South Africa are nevertheless of such a nature that the lower income groups and the lower social groups have a greater need for better communication and programmes and for the endeavour of the Government of the day to create a better South Africa.

One of the more important reasons for communication in South African society is certainly also the ideal of improving relations by means of communication. I want to ask the department how successful it has been with this idea of improving relations by way of communication. My problem with the department is that I believe it over-emphasises the development of relations between South Africa and the Western World. I believe that we are so caught up in our Western culture that we only try to change Western opinions on South Africa. For that reason I should like to see more visitors from African countries to South Africa.

On a previous occasion we asked the hon the Minister how many Black visitors and visitors from the East came to South Africa. I am probably one of the members of Parliament who interviews most overseas visitors in my office. I can testify that there is not enough representation from Africa and the East.

The task of the hon the Minister’s department is also the task of the SABC. This brings me to another problem with our task in the changing society. It appears that the SABC has a preference for funeral arrangements for White leaders. When a funeral takes place, the arrangements enjoy a lot of attention. I sometimes wonder whether there are not leaders in the Coloured, Black and Indian communities who also die and have to be buried.

Why are those people’s funerals not also given priority in the news or at any other time? Some times important news of the day is announced. Yet excessive coverage is given to funeral arrangements, particularly when this pertains to an employee of the SABC. It seems to me as if they make a whole programme of the event. The news is then dedicated totally to the deceased. We have the greatest of sympathy with the deceased and their families, but I do not think the whole community has such an intense interest in their affairs.

In our endeavour towards a new South Africa it is important that we bear the cultural concepts in South Africa in mind. We should bear in mind the way in which the various cultures in South Africa should be assisted to find unity in the new culture of South Africa. I have a problem with the hon the Minister’s department in this regard. Once again I believe that certain components of the South African community are not taken into account at all. In this connection I want to refer to the Coloured community in particular. I do not think it would be fair—nor would we welcome it—if a programme on Coloured culture were to be envisaged suddenly, because we do not believe there is such a thing as a Coloured culture. We are proud to say that we in fact form part of the South African culture.

That is why we are concerned about the fact that very few opportunities exist in the SATV programmes such as the news, or on the radio, to promote the South African culture. Only the Western culture of the Whites or special programmes for Blacks are broadcast.

Another problem is the great need for the SABC to promote other kinds of sport. If soccer does not dominate a programme, White participation in the various types of sport does. I think that we who have to create a new South Africa, should see to it that all communities are taken into consideration. All athletes try to do well. News coverage is a form of motivation. We do not succeed in involving enough young people in sport, because their motivation is not taken into consideration in the advertisements or the programmes which are broadcast.

I want to congratulate the hon the Minister as well as the SABC with the programme on the presentation of the Artes Awards on Saturday evening. I think it was an excellent programme. I also think too little is done for our people. I hope the cheques they received will be worth something and do not merely constitute a small award. I think our people lack the motivation to achieve. I think our people lack that because the world is boycotting us in the cultural sphere. I want to ask the hon the Minister once again, however, not to repeat that his department or the SABC is not racist. What chance do the Black participants have to be awarded a prize if the adjudicators are from another culture? I do not believe one can invite a person to the table merely to say that he has an equal opportunity. The Black participants have no equal chance of receiving an award, because in my opinion they do not even stand a chance during the adjudication and that is because the adjudicators come from different cultures. Their perceptions of the standards are different. We must investigate this matter, because we should not invite people merely to fill the chairs around the table.

I believe the hon the Minister has a difficult task. I also believe that in me he has a friend to help him with his task. However, I also believe that we have the joint task of creating the new South Africa. Therefore, before the next election, I want to ask the hon the Minister the following on behalf of the LP. What is the SABC’s attitude going to be on the coverage of the three Houses during the election? Is the SABC going to allow the House of Representatives to play second fiddle to events in the House of Assembly, as in the past? Is the SABC going to create opportunities for members of political parties to put their parties’ viewpoints on certain subjects? If that is the case, to what extent will this apply to parties participating in the election for the House of Representatives?

It is a pity to have to say this here, but the SABC must remember that Coloured viewers also pay taxes. They also pay for the privilege of seeing and hearing their own people in discussions. I believe that if we want to continue to boast about the success of the dispensation, we should implement the success in totality.

The Government boasts daily about the success brought about by the dispensation. This not only applies to the constitutional sphere, but also to the social and economic spheres. However, the SABC is also hesitant to give the necessary TV coverage to important events concerning the Administration: House of Representatives. The LP rejects a separate TV channel for the Coloured community. I do not believe it is necessary. I believe that all the communities should be granted their fair share if we want to serve the broader community in South Africa and if we want to develop the new South Africa.

*Mr R S SCHOEMAN:

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to speak after the hon the Deputy Minister and we on this side of the House listened with interest to his very constructive contribution to which I am sure the hon Minister of Information will reply fully in due course.

†However, before moving on to my own contribution I would like to congratulate the hon member for Johannesburg North on his surviving as the information spokesman of the new leftwing party. [Interjections.] Listening to him today I could not help thinking that he sounded particularly sensitive and touchy. I would like to say to him that I think it is rather unfair of him to project the enormous tensions which there are within his party and its leadership onto this otherwise constructive debate. [Interjections.] I will leave the hon member there but I am sure the hon the Minister will deal with him very effectively slightly later on, and he will deal with the hon member for Overvaal even more effectively. [Interjections.]

*Firstly I should like to refer to the activities of the Directorate: Planning Co-ordination of the Bureau for Information and I want to point out that the Directorate has brought about a dramatic improvement in the Government’s general communication efforts. Co-ordination has always been a critical factor in activities which affect the Government’s image as a whole. In this regard there has been a serious deficiency on the part of the Government until fairly recently. Few Government departments had any ability to communication whatsoever and the almost complete absence of a communication culture in the public sector often resulted in poor media relations, as well as the unnecessary withholding of information which caused the Government’s message, aims and problems to be conveyed in a poor and/or amateurish manner.

One of the negative results of the events surrounding the former Department of Information was the fact that any attempt on the part of the Government to release information was discredited to a greater extent than was justified. However, it is gratifying to note that since its inception the Bureau has succeeded in establishing itself as a credible institution which executes its task of communication in a sincere and professional way. On behalf of this side of the House, I should like to congratulate the head of the Bureau and his staff on what they have achieved since April 1986, in the relatively short period since the Bureau started functioning.

I want to add that the positive results of better planning and the co-ordination of inter-depart-mental communication activities and the advice on communication to Government departments and institutions is patently clear in all respects. It has undoubtedly resulted in a more well-informed public in this country. I nevertheless want to request that the Bureau extend these activities even further since there are still gaps in the attempts at communication on the part of certain Government institutions.

I also want to suggest to the hon the Minister that the Bureau consider making greater use of the exceptional expertise available in the field of communication in the private sector in South Africa. This could possibly be done by means of a degree of privatisation and/or closer liaison with the publicity and liaison industry itself. Whatever happens, I have no doubt that the Bureau, together with the private sector, can develop a formidable communication capability, and that is what I want to appeal for today.

†Another aspect of the department’s activities which I would like to refer to more specifically, is its Directorate: Media Liaison. As we know the directorate’s stated objective is to promote and extend sound communication and to open communication channels between the Government and State institutions on the one hand, and the media-both foreign and local—on the other. In my view this particular activity of the Bureau for Information is conceivably its most important activity. I say this because communicating information is basic to all the Bureau’s activities, but without the media that process of communicating is impossible. The Government, like any political party, is in effect at the mercy of the media in virtually all its efforts to communicate effectively with the public at large.

I would submit that we in this country need the media as never before in our history, because the need to convey a positive message has never been greater. I am not saying the media should not continue to play a role in which it has strong differences with the Government or that it must stop being highly critical of Government actions; I am saying that whether we like it or not the media’s role in the success of our Government communication efforts is a decisive one. When I refer to the media I include not only television and the biggest circulation newspapers, but also every single regional and community newspaper.

On average I think the political coverage which we see in the South African media is fair and pretty even-handed for the most part, and thus can ensure its playing a positive role, also seen from the Government’s point of view. For this reason everything possible should be done, as is being done by this department, to make life easier for the representatives of the media and to ensure that there is a full and free flow of information as far as possible between the Government and its agencies on the one hand, and the media on the other, as I said earlier.

The same basic argument of course also applies to the foreign media represented here in South Africa. The 122 foreign correspondents and their support staff deserve all the help we can give them, even if we might not always like the reports they send out. The fact is that among them they are reaching on a regular—often on a daily—basis an audience of readers and viewers totalling 1,3 billion, of whom 548 million are in Europe, 574 million in North America and Canada, 90 million in the Far East, 33 million in Africa and 54 million in Australasia. That means that these publications and other forms of media represent an incredibly powerful force in shaping perceptions of our country worldwide. I would like to congratulate the Bureau on the excellent work it is doing in respect of this very important group of people.

In the Bureau’s annual report reference is made to the formulation of the Bureau’s creed, and it is said that the central elements of the creed are excellence in communication, excellence in service, and excellence in human relations. In closing I would like to say that the staff of the Bureau should know that we on this side of the Committee believe that they are succeeding admirably in meeting the high standards which they have set themselves, and I have pleasure in supporting the Vote.

*Dr S G A GOLDEN:

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to speak after the hon member for Umhlanga.

I want to apologise for participating in the debate at this early stage. The hon member from the ranks of the NPP, who would have spoken now, is apparently not here and we had to change the order of speakers. I mention this point for the record.

In this afternoon’s debate I want to express a few thoughts on the subject of the necessity of effective communication by the State. There are a few misconceptions …

*Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

In Randburg as well?

*Dr S G A GOLDEN:

The hon member for Overvaal wants to know whether the same applies in Randburg. The hon member has once more become the victim of half-truths or of incorrect information. [Interjections.]

There are incorrect perceptions about, and in certain circles little understanding of, the fact that it is necessary for the Government to communicate with the inhabitants of the country. This reaction from certain circles and ranks even gives rise to great indignation when the Government makes responsible attempts to convey its policy to the population as well as it can by means of its own means of communication and by using the Public Service and public funds. We also hear the criticism that these people regard the communication campaign of the Government as misappropriation of public funds to further party-political aims. Some of them think that this information campaign or communication campaign of the Government is tantamount to propaganda for a certain political party.

I think we have advanced sufficiently in politics in South Africa to be able to differentiate by now between a political party which is being propagated on the one hand and the political party or group of parties comprising the Government at a certain stage on the other. Surely we can draw that distinction by now, because my question to the opposition parties—perhaps more in particular to the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly as well as the other opposition parties—is whether, in this matter of effective communication of the Government with the population, they would have reacted in any way differently to the present Government if they had perhaps been in a different position? I therefore ask myself: If the Official Opposition had been in power, would they not have done exactly the same? On the contrary, I often wonder if there are opposition parties who would not perhaps have gone much further in their information and communication propaganda. [Interjections.] They would have done it for the same reasons because they would have liked to convey their policy as the Government as well and as effectively as possible to the constituents. I think we are dealing here with a kind of hypocrisy if we think that the opposition parties would not have done it. [Interjections.]

I wish to pause briefly at this point and refer to specific persons from the ranks of the CP who, alas, are not with us any more. Since it is important for the sake of this debate to highlight a few points about a specific person who once sat in the Official Opposition ranks, I want to quote as follows:

Someone has said—
Inligting moet hom daarop toespits om die beleid van die land soos deur die Regering van die dag vertolk, aan die landsburgers oor te dra.
He also said—
Ek glo dat in ’n demokratiese staat die beleid van die meerderheidsparty, solank hy aan die bewind is, die regeringsbeleid is.
Then he said the following—
Hierdie party …
That is now the governing party—
… se politieke beleid is getoets aan die mening van die kiesers van die volk in ’n demokratiese staat, en die kiesers het hierdie party se beleid verkies bokant die beleid van daardie party.
That is to say the Opposition—
Hierdie party se beleid word dus nou Regeringsbeleid, en dit is die taak van die Minister van Inligting en van die Departement van Inligting om regeringsbeleid in al sy aspekte oor te dra aan die kiesers daar-buite, want wat die Regering besluit in verband met enige saak, raak elke kieser in hierdie land.
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

[Inaudible.]

*Dr S G A GOLDEN:

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Overvaal is quite correct. It was the late Dr Connie Mulder who said these words. I quote again:

The hon the Minister is on record as having said, at one stage, that one of the functions of the department, or at least the information division of that department, is the elucidation of proclaimed Government policy and objectives. This is confirmed if one has a look at Dr Connie Mulder’s speech—
Ek glo dat in ’n demokratiese staat die beleid van die meerderheidsparty, solank hy aan die bewind is, die Regeringsbeleid is.

Now I want to ask hon members of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly as well as other opposition parties whether they still agree with this standpoint. Does the hon member for Overvaal agree with this standpoint? [Interjections.]

This is exactly what the present Government is doing. It is relaying the policy of the Government to the population by means of its communication programme as well and as effectively as possible.

*Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

Mr Chairman, is the hon member prepared to reply to a question?

*Dr S G A GOLDEN:

Mr Chairman, I do not wish to reply to any questions now. The hon member for Overvaal will probably participate in this debate if he has something to say about the Bureau for Information.

For the sake of the record I want to tell hon members that the extracts from Dr Connie Mulder’s speech come out of Hansard, Wednesday, 11 May 1983, col 6847 in a speech made by the hon member for Turffontein.

According to the rules of the game in politics, the ruling party or parties are granted the right to command the power of government in the implementing of its policy. This Government and this governing party, if one wishes to see them as a unit, because the two matters can be separated but not radically separated from one another, have the right to implement State means and State funds to convert their policy into deeds. If they have received this right, it is also obvious that a government would relay the deeds that have been performed as well as those it plans to perform to the population by way of multidimensional communication. A government that does not do this is not worth its salt.

The task of the present Government is to communicate its policy. Its task is far more complex, far more wide-ranging and far more demanding than that of a party that is not in power. An opposition party can allow itself the luxury of coming to its voters with great idealistic pipe-dreams about subjects of its choice. Opposition parties can promise the population the sun, moon and stars because they know they need not implement these promises.

A Government, on the other hand, is obliged in the nature of the circumstances to address the full spectrum of the reality and it is therefore forced to implement its policy in the difficult and uncomfortable situations that arise from day to day.

I have already said the hon members of the CP can easily present the pipe-dream of a homeland for Whites to the voters, and this may sound popular and may even be believed. It can even promise that something is going to be reduced, prices are going to fall and taxes are no longer going to be so high. They can do everything, but they know it cannot be implemented, because if they implement it, South Africa will be plunged into the greatest misery one can imagine.

A Government’s policy should be attainable, acceptable and feasible. All the relevant questions and facts should be passed on to the population. That is why the Government has the right to communicate with the population. However, it is important to say that it is not only the Government’s right to communicate, it is its duty. It is necessary, because the population has the right to know why the Government makes a specific decision and how that decision is going to affect the life of the voter or of the population.

The Government undertakes a vast number of actions. The population wants the Government to report on all these things. The population is entitled to that and it is the Government’s duty to do so. One could almost say that the population asks, no, demands, that the present Government will spell out what it is doing by way of a report.

Life is becoming more complex by the day and therefore it is the Government’s duty to explain to the population, by way of its channels of communication, what is happening in the constitutional sphere, because rapid evolution is taking place. It is difficult for voters to grasp everything because of this rapid change. It is the duty of the Government to explain and to communicate. Rapid changes are taking place in the social field. Also in this field South Africa is a society and a country on the move. Heracleitus spoke about panta rei or “All is flux, nothing is stationary”. We must relay this to our voters. We must tell them things have changed and for what reasons, and that more changes must and will take place. We must explain this to the voter.

A complex economic process is taking place and it is often difficult for the people outside to understand. Therefore the Government should also communicate as effectively, honestly and sincerely as possible in this field as it does in the political and social field.

The duty of the Government is also to warn the public against any danger threatening society. The public wants to know which corrective measures are going to be taken to safeguard their existence. Therefore the Government is not relaying a specific security system to our people, but is merely informing the population what the problems in this field are and what it is doing to secure their existence.

Another question is whether the media should be responsible for communicating the policy of the Government. I should like to reply by quoting from a speech of the hon the Minister … [Time expired.]

Mr V SASS:

Mr Chairman, I am sorry about the mix-up of times on the speakers’ list. It would seem that I was also affected but at least I gained a little more time in the process.

I shall confine my speech to the SABC and all its doings. Let me begin with dubbing from English into Afrikaans. The hon the Minister knows that in every session since 1985 I have strongly protested against the dubbing of film material, especially TV plays, from English into Afrikaans because the public as well as the critics of the media have found that this was totally unnecessary. We are supposed to be a bilingual country and by now most of us speak both languages.

Secondly, it is an absolute waste of good money. The questions I have put in order to find out how much this unnecessary facility cost the country, the taxpayer and the TV licence-holder have failed to elicit any sensible replies. So the public, the critics and I can only guess that it has cost us millions; millions which, as I have suggested previously, could have been put to better use by assisting and promoting the Afrikaans film industry.

To say that a sort of balance should be maintained between English and Afrikaans TV presentations is certainly not a good reason and as an excuse it is even less acceptable and very much less palatable. Nobody objects to the dubbing of, for example, German into Afrikaans, as is done in the case of Derrick and Misdaad, or Italian or whatever into Afrikaans because we cannot understand those languages. Dubbing of English, however, whether British, American or Australian, into Afrikaans is an insult to the intelligence of any person who acquired an education in a South African school of ten years or more and has therefore mastered both languages.

It would, however, appear that there has been less and less of this unwanted dubbing lately. Will it help if we indulge in some more wishful thinking that this undesirable and unwanted dubbing will soon be a thing of the past altogether?

I should like to refer to advertisements in the middle of a programme. Nobody will object to advertisements before and/or after the screening of film programmes. However, these frequent interruptions, three or four times in the middle of a show, with from three, four, five and six advertisements at a time, are proving to be most frustrating. I grant it that these advertisements bring in more money. However, if this practice is discontinued, I doubt if that we will lose much revenue from this source.

Advertisers will continue to advertise in order to keep up with business competitors. However, if certain advertisers are responsible for what can only be called rude and unmannerly practices—it is rude and unmannerly to interrupt, is it not?— and if the authorities should, to put it mildly, fail to discourage these obnoxious practices, it is time that the consumer does so. I would suggest that a blacklist, perhaps for boycott purposes, should be compiled of the products that are advertised in this manner. Surely the public who pay in the end for these advertisements, have a right to enjoy their TV viewing free of this kind of interruption.

Breakdowns in services are becoming more frequent lately, and certainly apologies for this are offered less frequently. This does not add to one’s enjoyment of an evening at home, not to mention the putrid reasons or excuses offered for the breakdown in service. What happened during one such evening? Firstly the screen remained alternately blank, flashed stripes and then it appeared as if rain was coming from inside. Secondly, the sound was hissing all the time like an old kettle that refuses to emit steam or reach boiling point. I telephoned the studios at Sea Point, using all three numbers alternately. The telephones remained engaged, however. When I eventually got through the reason was given that one of the discs on Table Mountain had been blown off and away by the strong wind. It would not be so bad to pay licence fees if a satisfactory service is performed. But what do we get? Less and less satisfaction for more and more licence fees! Surprisingly enough, a profit is collected! This sounds like Alice in Wonderland—curiouser and curiouser! Does this topsy-turveydom of things fit the pattern of political life in South Africa of new political parties with triumvirate leadership; an unholy trinity presumably open to all persons, irrespective of race, colour or creed, but with candidates for election restricted to members qualifying for election to only one of the three Houses of this tricameral Parliament. Why? Are they, like the late and unlamented United Party, trying to be all things to all men? This is a sure recipe for selfdestruction.

Nevertheless, I disagree with the fact that the governing party should get so much more exposure on TV than the others as they are surely entitled to more exposure, especially the newest one of the lot which offers us so much in comedy from three different leadership directions. Let them go ahead. Give them more time on television. I beg that the Government should grant them that so that they can make fools of themselves three times over.

However, I should also like to sound a positive note. It is most disturbing to me and to many others who live in this country that the film industry is facing a severe crisis. I should like to quote a news report on all kinds of difficulties the film industry has to contend with. I should like to make an appeal to the hon the Minister.

*I want to try to be helpful in this connection. At the moment there is a system of subsidies for films made for the theatre. I refer to local productions. I want to ask the hon the Minister to investigate the possibility of creating a subsidy system which can be applied to programmes produced for television viewing. This may not be sufficient to set the film industry on its feet again, but at least we can start working on that.

†I feel very serious about this article in The Argus of Monday, 10 April 1989, where one finds the heart-breaking news that the basic infrastructure of the independent film industries has been threatened with collapse and the considerable unemployment that 3 000 people face or are likely to face because of this. Make-up artists have to find work elsewhere. The demand for crews has fallen to an all-time low.

*Mr A ESSOP:

What is he talking about?

*Mr V SASS:

You can understand English, or don’t you read?

†For example the lighting cameramen are forced to find work outside the industry. It has even affected the catering industry and hotel industry. Just about everybody that has anything to do with the film industry is affected. I feel that we should do something serious about getting the film industry onto its feet.

*Dr J J SWANEPOEL:

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Matroosfontein will forgive me if I do not pursue the matters which he raised, namely the SABC and the film industry, since other hon members on our side of the House will discuss these specific aspects later on today. I wish to make use of the time at my disposal to dwell on the activities of the Bureau for Information and more particularly to refer to a matter which has been discussed here on various occasions this afternoon, namely the whole question of advertisements in the Press by the Bureau for the promotion of State policy.

The question may be asked as to why the Bureau advertises in the Press on behalf of the authorities. I think this is a question which may well be asked. In my view one must seek the answer in a multiplicity of facets. South Africa is experiencing an era of extensive change, as indeed is the rest of the world. Change in virtually every area of our society. Social and political-constitutional changes are the order of the day. The hon member Dr Golden also referred to this.

These changes are thrusting forward daily under their own momentum. Change entails certain adaptations for people, hence also an uncertainty which, if not allayed, can very easily bring about panic and despair. It is interesting to note that in many a country the government is the initiator of the greatest or of the most changes. For this reason it is the responsibility of the government to keep the citizens of that country up to date with regard to the change that is taking place in that country, and to inform them about the adjustments which that change entails.

In my view this responsibility of the Government in South Africa is even greater. The fact is that we accommodate both First World and Third World populations. The Government has a responsibility towards both these populations, but in my view it is precisely towards the Third World population that it has a bounden duty to facilitate their transition to the First World.

I wish to mention an example. Reference has already been made here this afternoon to the whole issue of the election of third-tier governments. How does a government convey information to 10 million people with regard to participation in the democratic process, such as the municipal elections? How does one tell 10 million people that they must have themselves registered as voters and that if they move from one residence to another they must report their changes of address? How does one tell 10 million people that they must apply for identity documents and so on?

In order to communicate with the masses, the Government is also obliged to make use of certain means of mass communication.

The newspaper, and more specifically the newspaper advertisement, represents an effective method of disseminating information far and wide in this process. Research has shown, and today it is generally accepted, that advertisements, and more specifically newspaper advertisements, are a desirable and an effective instrument for conveying information. It may well be asked why there have to be advertisements in the newspaper. After all, these cost a great deal of money. Could the information not simply be given to the Press so that they could convey it by way of reporting? In this way the State could save a great deal of money. The information would still be conveyed. The fact is, however, that media coverage in this manner is not always adequate. Policy declarations have to compete with other reports, articles and news releases for a place in the newspaper. Newspapers have limited space.

As an instrument of the State, the Bureau for Information has no control over the quantity of coverage which the Press gives to a news release. The presentation and editing of Press statements are entirely beyond the control of the Bureau. Therefore, if it wishes to control what is said in the newspaper, it must do this by way of advertisements. In other words, the Bureau buys space in the newspaper, and for this reason it has the right to specify what is to be said or printed in it.

Advertisements therefore represent a most effective means for the authorities to communicate with the citizens and to convey valuable information. By way of advertisements the Government has full control over the presentation of its information as well as the frequency with which it is conveyed. This is done throughout the world with great success. Advertisements in the public Press are used daily with great success by business concerns, cultural organisations, churches, sports organisations and other concerns. Why may the authorities not also make use of the same medium?

It is estimated that the Bureau’s own publications have a readership of 2,5 million. This makes one realise that these publications are not sufficient to bring home the message of the Bureau to as many people as possible. The daily newspapers and the Sunday newspapers are used as an important medium to augment these publications.

It is now being alleged that the Bureau as such is an instrument of the Government and that these very advertisements are a method by which the Bureau is propagating NP policy, and that the Bureau is therefore using taxpayers’ money to promote the NP and its policy. In my view this criticism is not only misplaced, but it is also malicious.

This afternoon the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke specifically singled out the advertisement which appeared in the Sunday Press on 3 July last year, as an example of NP propaganda. I have the advertisement here in front of me, and further to what the hon member said, I have read through it a few more times this afternoon. I cannot but find that the advertisement differs in no respect from other advertisements that have been placed in the Press by the Bureau. This advertisement deals with sensitive legislation, legislation which affects the lives of all the population groups in this country. The aim of the advertisement was to inform the citizens of the country about legislation with regard to group areas and related legislation which the Government intended to introduce. I want to ask the hon member to read the advertisement again, but this time to take off his CP spectacles. He is reading the advertisement through CP spectacles, and what he then sees is the result of the argument he advanced here today. I say that the criticism against this is malicious. [Interjections.]

The Bureau is not an instrument of the NP. The NP has its own information service, which is a very effective service. In fact, hon members may see the result of that information service here in Parliament and particularly in the House of Assembly, where the NP has swept aside the right-wing and left-wing opposition to such an extent that they are where they are today. The NP advertises its cause itself, and not without a great deal of success.

I wish to conclude by pointing out that all South Africans have the right to know how their lives are being regulated by the actions of the Government. This information is being conveyed to them by, inter alia, the advertising campaigns of the Bureau. We are pleased to be able to report that these campaigns have been very successful. Reference has been made to other campaigns, but I wish to refer to a specific one. In May 1986 applications for identity documents from Black members of the population amounted to 50 000 per month. After an intensive advertising campaign conducted in the Press by the Bureau, the number of applications was pushed up to 600 000 per month within the space of eight months, which is an indication of the tremendous influence which the advertisements of the Bureau have. This is an effective method and parties must not cast suspicion on this form of conveying information, for the sake of political gain. I congratulate the hon the Minister and the Bureau on this.

*Mr A GERBER:

Mr Chairman, I do not want to react to what was said by the hon member for Bloemfontein East, but I do want to record that something very interesting happened in this House this afternoon. The hon member for Diamant alleged that the hon the Minister of Information had said at Meyerton that the Whites would remain in control of South Africa until the end of this century. Thereupon the hon the Minister shook his head and denied it.

*The MINISTER OF INFORMATION, BROADCASTING AND THE FILM INDUSTRY:

That is not exactly what he said.

*Mr A GERBER:

The only inference that can be drawn from that is that the hon the Minister accepts that there will be a Black state president and Black majority rule in South Africa before the end of the century. [Interjections.] Would the hon the Minister deny that?

*The MINISTER OF INFORMATION, BROADCASTING AND THE FILM INDUSTRY:

Do not begin by distorting the hon member’s words and then … [Interjections.]

*Mr A GERBER:

Mr Chairman, I want to come to the subject I want to discuss this afternoon. In recent years, there has been so much undisguised propaganda and so many wrongs have been committed against everything that is conservative in our country that it is really difficult to remain positive when one has an opportunity to say something about the SABC. Nevertheless I should like, before proceeding to a critical discussion of the SABC’s activities, to express a word of thanks for two things that happened during the past year. In the first place, the SABC was able to report that a total of 29 114 religious programmes had been broadcast on radio and television combined. The total number of hours devoted to religious programmes was 7 358. This gives us an average of 80 programmes a day and 20 hours a day. The SABC deserves a word of thanks for the percentage of time that was devoted to religious programmes. In a world that is becoming increasingly secularised and permissive in its thinking, there is often no time left for religion. The SABC deserves praise for the fact that it has been able to resist this pressure in respect of the presentation of religious programmes.

Secondly, the SABC should be thanked for its presentation of the historic debate between the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly and the hon the leader-in-chief of the NP. [Interjections.] In many ways that debate gripped the imagination of the country. I know of meetings that were interrupted to enable people to follow that debate. The debate was the one occasion on which the CP could decide for itself what the electorate should hear. It was the one occasion on which the CP was able to appear before an impartial chairman, even though he was a supporter of the NP. For that very reason, it was a huge success and a signal victory for the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly. [Interjections.] Hon members on the NP side need not make any interjections about this. Barely a week ago, an NP supporter told me that the biggest mistake the hon the leader-in-chief of the NP could make was to venture to participate in such a political debate. [Interjections.]

However, the CP also has serious criticisms to level at the SABC. We contend that the SABC is not complying with the conditions imposed upon it as the holder of a broadcasting licence. One of those conditions is—

… to report newsworthy current events in the Republic and abroad clearly, unambiguously, factually, impartially and without distortion.

This is not being done. [Interjections.] Only the hon members of the NP believe that it is being done.

Once again this year, the SABC’s annual report is lavish in its use of fine words and more words about objectivity and balance. Its philosophy is—so we are told—that programmes should maintain a balanced variety with regard to content, and that with regard to information and comment—this is very important—they should be sober, factual, authoritative and well-timed. In his report, the chairman of the board says the following about the news section of the SABC:

In carrying out its information task the SABC endeavours to inform its viewers in an objective and balanced way.

[Interjections.] I want to ask the chairman of the board this afternoon whether he is merely uninformed or whether he has been so blinded that he cannot see that the dying NP is now being propped up only by the propaganda of the SABC. [Interjections.] Is he unable or unwilling to see that, if it had not been for the SABC, the NP would long since have been driven from its seats here on the right-hand side of the Chamber? [Interjections.]

These fine words about objectivity and balance are shown to be a travesty when we look at what happens in practice. [Interjections.] Therefore I call upon the viewers of South Africa to be the judge as I accuse the SABC in this Committee today of being unbalanced and blatantly biased in favour of the Government of the day. [Interjections.]

I should like to make a few comments by way of illustrating this. Firstly, in the news reports— under which I include the parliamentary news— they are unfair in their selection of what they report about the CP. [Interjections.] They remove from our arguments those things that would really hurt the NP, and quite often they report on those things that are actually less important in the context of our speeches. It is easy to say afterwards that, for example, we had two full minutes to state our standpoint. The SABC knows very well that it depends, not only on the amount of time that one is given, but also on which parts of one’s speech they report on. [Interjections.] It is possible for the SABC—this is in fact what they do—to select the contents of that two-minute speech they are going to report in such a way that our opponent’s weaknesses are not exposed at all.

Secondly, I accuse the SABC of regularly ascertaining the CP’s standpoint beforehand, conveying it to the NP, and affording them the opportunity of preparing their response to it. The reverse never happens. [Interjections.]

I am now going to tell the SABC why they do this. They know quite well that the NP could never win any debate against the CP. [Interjections.] It is not possible. I invite them to look at every debate that took place on television during the past year—the CP won every single one of those debates. The reason for this lies not only in our people’s competence, but also in the fact that we have a cause, that we know where we are going, that we have opted for a separate nationhood and that the NP is falling between two stools on this subject. [Interjections.] The only way of sparing the NP this embarrassment is to inform them of the CP’s standpoint in advance and then to give them the last word in order to see how much of it they can try to neutralise. [Interjections.]

My third accusation against the SABC is that they do not afford the CP the opportunity of formulating its own policy and its own standpoint, as they could in all fairness be expected to do. Other persons—enemies of the CP’s policy— are afforded the opportunity of doing so on its behalf. Usually it is the presenter of the programme who has to formulate and motivate the CP’s standpoint in its absence, and then it is very easily shot down by a participant in the programme. This is a reprehensible tactic. The CP is capable of formulating its own standpoints. The hon members of the Government and the persons employed by the SABC’s news section are the last people the CP would trust to formulate its policy on its behalf.

*An HON MEMBER:

Give us an example.

*Mr A GERBER:

I am going to give an example. Some time ago, a programme on partition was presented on television. The hon member for Schweizer-Reneke has already referred to it. The person who should have figured most prominently in such a programme is obviously the hon the leader of the CP. Partition is the CP’s policy, after all. Who was the person who had most to say about partition in that programme, however? It was not the hon the leader of the CP nor even the other conservative participants in the programme. No, it was the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development, who is not even capable of making his own party’s policy of power-sharing intelligible to South Africa. He was the one who spoke about partition. I say this is absolutely disgraceful. We want to tell the SABC this afternoon that when the CP’s policy on partition or any other policy is to be formulated, we are quite capable of formulating it ourselves. [Interjections.] We object in the strongest possible terms to having our standpoint formulated for us by political opponents and then shot down by them. [Interjections.] This is the grossest injustice to which a political party can be subjected. [Interjections.]

Fourthly, I accuse the SABC of trying to present the activities to the right of the political spectrum in South Africa as being ridiculous and backward, while the events to the left of the political spectrum are reported objectively. I want to give hon members an example. The founding and the standpoints of the CP as well as of the Afrikaner Volkswag were reported to viewers in South Africa in the most negative way possible. When the DP was formed, on the other hand, the event was reported to viewers in a positive way, and without any condemnation. [Interjections.] It is conduct of this kind that has given rise to resentment among conservative viewers and listeners.

I also want to direct the Committee’s attention to the question of a petition that was presented to the SABC by a continuation committee that had been appointed at an Afrikaner gathering at Donkerhoek on 16 December last year. Sixty thousand people instructed this continuation committee to monitor the abuse of the SABC-TV on an on-going basis and to take action to counter this abuse. In addition, a meeting was to have been arranged with the SABC management in this connection. As far as I know, the matter has already been discussed with the SABC. Now the question is whether the fact that 60 000 Afrikaners had objected to the conduct of the SABC was not newsworthy enough to be reported. Was it not newsworthy enough to be reported? In that petition, mention is made of a number of matters concerning which serious objections have been lodged. At the top of that list of objections is the desecration of the Sabbath. An atmosphere is being created, according to 60 000 Afrikaners, which is alien to the way in which the traditional believing Afrikaner spends his Sundays. Initially, for example, no sport was televised on Sundays. Then they started televising only the results of sporting events. That was followed by live transmissions of overseas matches. Finally, golf, tennis and other sporting events were televised as part of the regular Sunday fare. Surely the argument that the SABC has to satisfy all standpoints does not hold water. A few years ago, after all, there were also people who held different views on the matter. At that stage, however, they did not yield to the pressure that was brought to bear in this connection. I could quote many more examples from this petition. Because my time is limited, I am mentioning only the principal objections.

There is the morally subversive nature of certain TV programmes, especially as far as children are concerned. Examples of this are Bloedbroers, The A Team and Knight Rider. In these programmes children are taught, as it were, to accept violence as a means of getting their own way. [Time expired.]

*Mr S J SCHOEMAN (Sunnyside):

Mr Chairman, it is noteworthy that the hon member for Brits used a typical example—something the CP are masters at—when he referred to how the hon the Minister allegedly reacted to a statement that was made that contained a distortion, dressing it up as the truth, and then basing a further argument on the distortion, ultimately basing the entire argument on that distortion and presenting it as the truth. [Interjections.]

The second point the hon member referred to was the TV debate between the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly and the present leader-in-chief of the NP. He made an unsubstantiated statement by saying that the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly had won that debate.

If we look at the results of the subsequent election, who won? Proof that the hon the Minister of National Education won that debate hands down lies in the fact that we won the election with a large, overwhelming majority.

Mr Chairman, I must honestly say that, when I sit here listening to the hon member for Brits and other hon members of the Official Opposition, I think they should thank the SABC for the fact that they do, at least, have an opportunity to become known in South Africa thanks to the time the SABC allocates to them, instead of insulting the SABC at every turn as they do. One can rightly say that if it were not for the SABC, which gave these hon members an opportunity to make a noise in the world, many people would not even have known of the existence of the CP. The CP should therefore rather thank the SABC than act towards it in such a derogatory manner.

In conclusion, as far as the hon member for Brits’ remarks are concerned, I find it quite amusing that he said that right-wing groups did not like what they saw when the SABC showed them the picture as it really is. Mr Chairman, that is a curious admission, because the SABC shows matters as they are. If the hon member for Brits and other right-wing supporters do not like the picture they see of themselves, they must not blame the SABC for that. If they do not like the message, they must not try to kill the messenger.

Tomorrow, however, we shall react at greater length to matters involving the SABC. As the hon the Minister intimated at the commencement of the debate, in this part of the debate we are actually discussing the Bureau for Information.

The Bureau for Information is a relatively young department which has had to establish itself in recent years, frequently under very difficult circumstances. I want to extend my sincere congratulations to the hon the Minister and the officials of the Bureau for Information and thank them for what they have managed to do in this short time. Just look at how many members of the DP were present here and listen to the hon member for Johannesburg North, who sounds like a record that is stuck. He merely gave us the same refrain about the Bureau for Information over and over again. He does so every year in every speech, over and over again. He really has nothing at all left to say. If that is the only criticism there is, the hon the Minister should, in actual fact, be very grateful and very happy, because here there is no real criticism of the Bureau for Information’s functions. Here and there a small subdivision is highlighted and a mountain is made out of a molehill, and they hammer on the same aspect again and again. I therefore congratulate the hon the Minister and his department. They must feel very good, very proud of the fact that there can indeed be no possible significant criticism of the functions of the Bureau for Information.

If one pages through the Bureau for Information’s annual report, it is very clear that the few points that are singled out for criticism involve only a few subdivisions of all the Bureau for Information’s comprehensive functions. If one also looks at what the Bureau for Information has achieved in recent years, inter alia the consolidation of the management system and the establishment of a management centre in 1988, one sees proof of the fact that the Bureau for Information is serious about ultimately being an effective communication department which, as hon members have pointed out, is so essential in order to communicate.

Hence one of the main objectives of the Bureau’s activities in 1988 was the promotion of the nation-wide municipal elections. Hon members will acknowledge that the following statement is true. This campaign was not aimed at making NP propaganda, but at creating an awareness of the election amongst voters, amongst all the people of South Africa. The Bureau made an outstanding success of this.

I agree with the hon member Mr Seedat— the hon the Minister will know whether they will deal with this matter or whether they will assist the Department of Home Affairs in doing so— that even now, with the coming election, a campaign should be launched to make voters aware, for example, that they should notify the authorities of a change of address in order to be eligible to vote. I think it is also an important function with a view to the coming election.

I have said that one would be doing the Bureau an injustice if its activities were scaled down to those few matters mentioned by opposition parties. I therefore want to refer to all the Bureau’s campaigns on p 6 of the annual report. One gets an impression of the comprehensive task of the Bureau. If one looks at the liaison campaigns of the past year one sees that there were 14 249; for counselling the figure was 2 639; for assistance rendered to other departments, 777; for guest contacts on record, 2 220—official guests, 148 and local assistance guests, 1 173. Here I also want to agree with the hon member Mr Seedat that those who have to deal with these guests have done an excellent job on which they can be congratulated on our behalf.

If one looks at the publications that have been distributed, one sees that there were 1 165 106 head office Bureau publications and 34 891 251 regional office publications. When one looks at this picture, one realises that the Bureau’s task is much wider and more comprehensive than the negative comments of the opposition parties have indicated. On behalf of this side of the House I want to extend my sincere congratulations to the Bureau on all this wonderful work they are doing and wish them everything of the best.

I think that if there has ever been a time when it has been necessary to disseminate information, to make people aware of certain aspects and to put people in touch with one another, it is now. People must take cognisance of one another and we must get to know one another. We must not live in isolation—everyone should be geared to making a contribution towards building bridges and relationships and creating opportunities to communicate with one another. In this regard the Bureau for Information, as the State’s communicator, plays an extremely important role.

Not only is it important for the State to communicate with the citizens of the country, but there should also, as it were, be two-way communication. In this regard I want to mention the Directorate of Research Co-ordination which plays a very important role, by way of opinion polls, so that they know what the population thinks of the campaigns. [Time expired.]

Mr Y MOOLLA:

Mr Chairman, I want to take this opportunity to inform the hon the Minister that this is my maiden speech in this Chamber and I therefore claim the privilege of a maiden speech.

Another aspect I wanted to raise is that it is unfortunate that my hon colleagues from the House of Delegates gave away their ten minutes. I trust that the members of that party are now sitting so that we will not lose time in this way in the future. As Chief Whip of the House of Delegates it embarrasses me. It is not the fault of the majority party of that House, however.

I want to start off by referring to the hon member Mr Seedat’s speech. He said to the hon the Minister that some of the people he met on his overseas trip asked him to tell his Government not to stall on reform. What the hon member Mr Seedat failed to tell them, however, is that the Government and the Ministers in this country really need political hearing aids. For a very long time we have been telling the Government not to stall on reform, and that it must be an ongoing process. Hence our participation in the tricameral system.

The hon the Minister and the Government must understand that if they want to use this department effectively, it must not be used to impose an ideology which is not accepted by the majority of the people. On the contrary, this department has to be used as a means of communication between the broader mass of the people and the Government itself. It is my view that the hon the Minister and the Government have misconceptions and wrong perceptions of the aspirations of the community we represent. Our perception of the department is that it uses the opportunity to advocate Government policies. This has to be addressed earnestly if the department is going to be successful.

It might be said that I am just making a rather bland statement. However, I should like to qualify it. Let us take the 1988 municipal elections. Various speakers had a lot to say about the role played by this department in the municipal elections. Perhaps it played a role from the point of view of local government civic awareness. However, I should like to caution the hon the Minister against the type of propaganda that went with it. It created the impression that people of colour were participating in the municipal elections as if they had municipal franchise overnight. Indeed, an article in the Phoenix said just that. It appeared from an article that people of colour were participating on an equal basis with other race groups. This is not correct. We know the LAC system is not equal to local authorities. [Interjections.]

One cannot. It is not possible. It is not viable. The hon member ought to know that. There appears to be a lack of communication and the hon the Minister’s department should do something in order to inform MPs. If they merely say that group areas and dormitory areas can become local authorities, it is a manifestation of the lack of understanding of the real issues. [Interjections.] It is evident in the exchanging of words between us now.

I should like to continue—if the hon member would listen to what I am saying. The impression that was created has brought about tremendous expectations with the people of colour. They believe that after having voted in 1988, they are going to have municipal equality and are going to enjoy all the fruits of local government. I want to say to the hon the Minister that if failure was to come of their great expectations, their frustration would be even worse. Frustrations that will lead to further conflict cannot be curtailed by the imposition of emergency regulations or other controls for ever. We need proper, effective communication rather than the use of such measures to contain aspirations. To start off with, MPs and Cabinet Ministers … [Time expired.]

Mr D CHRISTOPHERS:

Mr Chairman, I am quite pleased to follow on the hon member for Stanger because he has touched on a couple of things which are the subject of my discussion this afternoon.

First of all he said that the bureau cannot be expected to further the NP ideology. He actually said that the bureau cannot impose an ideology on the people. However, I think in our kind of democracy the aim of such a bureau is to follow the Government of the day’s policy. One cannot say: “The Government of the day does not agree with us, therefore the bureau should not carry out its works.”

However, more aptly as regards what I going to say, he uses the exact words of a foreign creed—out of what I could call liberation theology—which is straight out of Lenin. He uses words like “created expectations that cannot be fulfilled”. Hon members know that that is about the proletariat. He then goes further and says that frustrations lead to further conflict. It is straight out of Lenin and out of liberation theology.

That is the part that I want to speak about this afternoon. I want to speak about our bureau’s liaison with the 122 foreign correspondents that we have in this country. I would like to create some sort of background on which we all work— not the NP nor the CP, nor the parties that we are with today in the House of Representatives, nor the House of Delegates but all of us in this country.

One of the questions most often asked of me in my constituency is why our information service does not do something about this terrible image that South Africa has overseas. Then the clamour comes for a million reasons. However, I think this afternoon there is only one real reason, namely that we are simply outclassed with money. No matter what the ideology of this Government was in this country at any time, the money that our enemies overseas have is far greater than what we have.

For instance if any one of these politicians had to run one meeting in a city hall in their own constituency, if they are going to be truthful they will say it costs them thousands. If they say that is not true, then I say that boards are R11 each and advertisements in papers are R1 250 each. If they get a thousand people together and they are going to bring their message over to them in their own little constituency, it would cost them thousands.

Take a name like Coca-Cola. To get this one brand name “Coca-Cola” across to the whole world, Coca-Cola has spent more in adverts than South Africa’s total income from taxes in one year. It comes back to money again. Think how much money it would take, if they were the enemy of South Africa, just to register the word “South Africa”—not anything else with South Africa; not the pejoratives, nor the bad words that they are going to bring later. However, if they communicated to 5 000 million people on this earth so as to register the name so that everyone of those people knew about South Africa, it would cost them about R1 a person. It would cost them R5 000 million to register just the name.

There are 500 anti-South African funded offices running full-time overseas. Hon members must know how much that costs. [Interjections.] For instance, the root cause is that we have an enemy that is going to wipe them, me and everybody in this House out—not just one party. [Interjections.] We will come to that. Give me time.

Thousands of demonstrators overseas are paid union rates to demonstrate against this country. The WCC which has attacked this country time and time again and runs congresses where they have 3 000 to 4 000 delegates going to one congress. Their air fares are paid, say, to Norway. Their hotel fares are paid in Norway. Their expenses are paid. Have the people in this country once in their lives thought what we are up against, what the Bureau of Information in this country with its R90 million budget per year is up against? They are against an enemy that eats them for breakfast no matter who runs this country.

Have hon members ever thought for one minute who pays for the stream of hands-uppers, those who leave here quickly—not us in this Committee—to go and hands-up to the ANC just in case the ANC takes over. [Interjections.] When we ask this stream of hands-uppers who funded them, they are always very bashful. One just cannot get it out of them. However, now and then we catch a man like Ball and we find a cheque for R100 000 for Cachalia. Now and then we ask ourselves, about all these guys who are going overseas to promote sanctions against all hon members, not just us, who is paying for these great sanctioneers. Who is paying for the sanc-tioneers that are over there now? Have hon members ever stopped for one minute to think of what those people are getting paid and who is funding them? There may be hon members in this Committee who say that that is a load of blarney. Now we come to the point that has been made that all those people overseas spent their billions because in their hearts they are so sore and so sorry for the oppressed Coloured and Black people in this country. Why were those millions of rand not spent on the poor, oppressed, starving and dying people of Ethiopia? Did anyone ever go and look to see how much Ethiopia—those dying, starving, politically oppressed Blacks—got? Has anyone ever looked at the generosity of the Western world to see what has been done for them? [Interjections.] We can forget it. If hon members are talking about the politically oppressed, poor Africans in this state, what has the rest of the world done for Uganda? Has the hon member looked at that lately? He should have a look. If he believes the money is spent against this bureau and against this country because they are on his side, then he is heading for political destruction.

Take over this country and see what happens. Those same forces will oppose you. This country is a valuable country; it is the most important country in Africa. The forces against us are going to use that fact, not which Government is in charge of the bureau. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Representatives):

Order! I am not going to allow these continuous interjections. The hon member may continue.

*Mr D CHRISTOPHERS:

Mr Chairman, one must forgive them if they are hurt. [Interjections.]

†I want to ask hon members, regarding our own journalists who are sitting here in the Press Gallery, if they ever have in their own towns tried to influence their local papers, their local journalists and get them on their side to help them with their campaign? What does it take? It takes dinners, drinks and parties. One has to wine and dine them, hire buses and try to make them see your point of view. Do hon members think that journalists in the rest of the world operate differently from how they do here? [Interjections.] If the world there are funds set aside to be used against us that one can hardly imagine. Since the Bandung conference until now those journalists have been wooed and feted and look after, so that the hand-outs from the opposition to this country get into their hands. Those hand-outs are the ones that are shown on television and get into the Press. It works the same overseas as it works here.

Now hon members ask who this great enemy is who hates us so much that we keep getting hammered. It is very easy. Every serious politician in this country knows what happened in 1950. In 1950 the Bandung conference was held; the Afro-Asian bloc was formed. I have total sympathy for the people who formed that bloc. Why? Because the yellow people and the Coloured people in this world were sick and tired of being patronised and treated like boys. They got together to show their political teeth. [Interjections.] I am with them, but what a wonderful opportunity that was for the communists in the world to try to take over that movement and develop the useful idiots, as Lenin called the opposition Presses of the world and the opposition parties in the West. Since that conference the opposition parties and the opposition Press, not only in this country, but all over the world, have taken the money of the world to smash that which we believe in.

This bureau of ours is going to protect us with its tiny little budget. If hon members don’t believe what I say, then I make a prophecy. The pressure and the money from Russia is no longer there. The Russians have changed, and we will also change. Then the pressure will be off us. Just watch! [Time expired.]

*Mr J A RABIE:

Mr Chairman, I shall not react to the hon member for Germiston at all, because I understood nothing of what the hon member has just been getting off his chest now. [Interjections.] There is one sphere in which the Bureau for Information and I are not going to have any problem this afternoon and that is the arrangements in respect of the foreign visitors whom we receive in our offices from time to time. We then have an opportunity to state our standpoints, opposed to those which are stated in the publications of the Bureau. The other day I had an interesting experience. It was arranged by the Department of Foreign Affairs. One of our foreign ambassadors paid me a visit in my office to hear how we saw things. It was truly enlightening, because he had a few of the publications of the department in front of him and he put certain questions. One had to refute some of these things.

A few minutes ago the hon member Dr Golden adopted the standpoint that the Government had to make its policy known to the voters. However, I think there is one thing that is being overlooked. When we came to this tricameral Parliament it was an entirely new ball game. We found the publications of the Bureau for Information to a large extent to be distorted in respect of what was really happening around us. As hon members said earlier, there is too much NP propaganda. The other side of the story is not told in the publications. A great deal was said just now about the historic debate between the hon the chief leader of the NP and the hon Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly. We did not find the debate to be all that enlightening. Of course it was very enlightening for the White voters. On the one hand the hon Leader of the Official Opposition stated the standpoint of the CP, and on the other the hon chief leader of the NP defended their standpoint against what the CP said the NP was doing by trying to imply that that was not happening.

I think there should be more such debates— particularly with a view to information—on television, but then other parties must be involved with a view to the situation in which we find ourselves, so that their standpoint can also be telecast. This afternoon I want to suggest that in the publications …

*An HON MEMBER:

It is no use if he refuses to do so.

*Mr J A RABIE:

The hon the Minister is not a democrat if he refuses; surely he must listen to my standpoint as well.

I want to suggest that what is happening around the conferences tables should also be reflected in the publications. For example there was a discussion the other day between the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning and certain Black representatives. What were they discussing? What were the results of those negotiations? [Interjections.]

This does not appear in the publications of the Bureau. Let me take an example. If there are negotiations with the Government on the repeal of the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act how did those negotiations progress, and what decision did the Government take in that regard at the end of the day?

I am convinced that many of the things we, the Coloured people, are burdened with in politics will to a large extent be eliminated if this is done. Hon members are of course aware that we who are participating in the negotiating process are being reviled as men of straw, Government stooges, puppets and yes-men for the extension of the policy of apartheid.

It is being said that we were co-opted and that we are not playing any role in the political process that is taking place here. If prominence were also to be given to those negotiations in the publications of the Bureau then surely it is there for everyone to see that real negotiation is taking place and that results are forthcoming.

If these things were to be publicised abroad, it would make matters easier for us when we go abroad. When one goes overseas, as we did in November, one is lambasted about the things that are not right in this country. Sometimes one is lambasted as though one agreed with the things that are not right in this country, and, if one is unable to state ones case, one is going to have problems.

When I come next to the SABC and the television service the hon the Minister will remember that at one stage the SABC was controlled by the members of the Broederbond. That image remained clinging to it. At one stage in the past we had an appointment with the late Dr Meyer, on television in fact—which is such a powerful medium because one sees and hears, experiences and feels what appears on the screen. We wanted to discuss with Dr Meyer the participation of people of colour in the total spectrum of the activities of the SABC. We must participate, broadcast, be continuity announcers, read the news, be cameramen and we must participate in the dramas broadcast on television.

I think at that stage Mr Andre Walters was the public relations officer of the SABC, and he was present at the meeting. He said that surely the things we were asking him for could not happen because it was a White television service and a White broadcasting corporation. He said we should rather come and ask them to establish a separate channel for us, so that we could realise our religious and cultural activity there.

Now hon members can see why we still regard the SABC as though it were being controlled by the men of the Broederbond, as was the case at the time.

*Mr R S SCHOEMAN:

Who are they?

*Mr J A RABIE:

The Chairman of the SABC Board was the chairman of the Broederbond, in case the hon member did not know that.

When it comes to news coverage I think the hon the Minister would agree with me that it favours the NP too much, and particularly when it comes to politics they concentrate for the most part on what is happening in White politics. Only occasionally do the other participants in the political drama have a turn.

Broadcasting takes place and everything is fine— the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke mentioned the municipal elections in this connection—if things go well for the NP it has to be telecast, but if the other side has benefited from the election nothing is shown. I do not think this should be the case.

In the report nothing is said about the former Director-General, Mr Riaan Eksteen. Was this done to tell us that this poor soul made no contribution to the development and progress of broadcasting in South Africa, or is it that the present chairman of the Board used to be his boss when he was employed in the Department of Foreign Affairs in the diplomatic world, also as Director-General, and again became his boss as the Chairman of the SABC Board? Those are the question my voters are asking me. Yesterday they told me to question the hon the Minister about this so that he could give us clarity about why Mr Riaan Eksteen was not being mentioned. Why is recognition not being given to what he did? The hon the Minister must tell us precisely what happened there. We want to hear it from the horse’s mouth. We do not want to have any doubts about it as we sit here.

When it comes to our participation I must concede that a reorientation has occurred. Our people are there. There are cameramen and so on. But when it comes to cultural activities, a great deal more can be done. We have had Koöperasiestories, Die Ma-plotters, Agter elke man, and we had Nommer asseblief!

What is the SABC going to do about works like Kanna hy kô hystoe and other works by Adam Small, Fiela se Kind, Die Moerbeibos, Johannie giet die Beeld by Eddie Domingo, and Cry the Beloved Country by the late Alan Paton? [Interjections.]

The works I have now mentioned here are only few in number, but they affect our way of life intensely. Perhaps the hon the Minister should get it through to the Board that the people there should do something about this. One mini-series after another is being produced in which we either play the part of a servant or that of a labourer somewhere in a forest, or similar roles. It is only very occasionally that our people play a part in which they share in their full activity. [Time expired.]

Mr R M BURROWS:

Mr Chairman, I certainly would support the statements being made by the previous hon member. It is also necessary that I make a remark or two concerning the statements made by the hon member for Germiston. He makes peculiar speeches and sometimes they are difficult to follow. Today he was easy to follow as it was the frothing of a disabled mind, based on history and without concluding where South Africa lies today. Any arguments that could be put forward as to why R49 million should be spent on the internal propagation of the message of the NP, when there are millions spent outside this country attacking South Africa as a whole, leaves me cold. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: What the hon member for Germiston District just said, would seem to be unparliamentary.

The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Representatives):

The hon member may proceed.

Mr R M BURROWS:

I would like to turn to the film industry and make a remark or two to the hon the Minister who took over this function of the film industry a year ago. It has been under his control during that time and during that time it has successfully appointed a task force which was greeted with less than grateful cheers by the industry itself. It has presided over the total collapse of the industry in the last month or two in the wake of the removal of much of their tax benefits. Generally, for the film industry it has not been a good year.

I would like to start by making a remark about the task force. I quote from Die Burger of 31 March 1988:

Suid-Afrikaanse rolprentbedryf ondersoek.
Die taakgroep sal onder meer ondersoek instel na beter koördinering rakende die benutting van hulpbronne, opleiding en geldverskaffing. Volgens dr Van der Merwe behoort die taakgroep sy verslag binne twee of drie maande te voltooi en sal belanghebbendes die geleent-heid kry om daaroor kommentaar te lewer.

I want to ask where the report is. I want to ask whether that report appeared after the two or three months in which the hon the Minister indicated a year ago that it would appear. Certainly his departmental report contains four lines on the film industry. It makes no mention of the task force, of the five-man composition of the force, of the success of the task force itself or of a possible report of that task force. Is the hon the Minister not proud of the task force’s work or what it was intended to be doing in the past year? I think we would appreciate it, and so would South Africa as a whole, if we could know something about this.

Secondly I would like to look at the question of film subsidies. A month ago on 17 March the hon the Minister was quoted as saying in the Cape Times, and I quote:

An announcement on further assistance to the film industry is still being considered as a matter of priority and will not be unduly delayed.

He welcomed a large amount of input and many comments that had been received from the film industry. That statement came in the light of a decision taken with effect from 9 March to cut the amount of investment incentive in the film industry from a quoted figure of 250% to 20%. That incentive cut apparently came very suddenly and with fairly drastic effect. The hon the Minister is quoted in Hansard on 20 February 1989 in col 1033 as stating in answer to my colleague, the hon member for Johannesburg North as regards the amount allocated to the film industry and also as regards an indication of the formula for productions that has been worked out and which is then given to the industry, and I quote:

The Government is then obliged—it is a contractual obligation towards the industry— to comply with those criteria of the subsidy system.

The only problem that I have then, is not with the possible alteration of the formula because that may well lead to the taxpayer saving money. It is the fact that one reads headlines about the film industry struggling because the new tax laws ends a boom year and leaves 3 000 movie people out of work. I want to ask this hon Minister directly whether the introduction of these cutbacks and the introduction of the amendment to the investment incentive had this effect. Were the film industry warned and are they blowing a trumpet which should not be blown?

If we wish to create a viable film industry in this country which is as successful as for example the Australian or Canadian one, which I have no doubt we can do, then we must have an industry with at least some constancy about it, and not one with the ups and downs which have taken place over the number of years.

I refer hon members to a statement in the Financial Mail of over a year ago after it was announced that the hon the Minister was taking over the film industry, speculating what the effect would be. It expressed the hope that the film industry would not die a sudden death as the incentives which had been in application for four years hopefully resulted in four boom years. It looks as if that is exactly what has occurred.

Mrs R JAGER:

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to follow the hon member for Pinetown who has passed various questions on the film industry. To quote newspapers will not suffice at this stage because we are all aware of the problems of the economy in general and in particular of the problems pertaining to the film industry. I would prefer the hon the Minister to answer him on the question of the composition of the task force and the formulae and I would therefore rather direct my attention to the problems in the industry and the possibilities foreseen to rectify them.

*Recently the film industry has featured fairly prominently in the Press. Few people realise, however, that the industry has been in existence for 75 years and that the State has been involved in the financing of the industry in one way or another for 30 years. With reference to this long involvement, I should now like to welcome the Deputy Director whose task it is to deal with the film industry, Mr Dirk Venter, most cordially. He is the first person to fill this position and I hope that he will find the time spent with us beneficial. It is a pleasure to have him with us.

The film industry recently experienced difficulties as did the rest of the economic activities in South Africa. The fact that the market is small also means that it is limited. Moreover, the market is fragmented by diverse viewer communities and is hard pressed due to a lack of a distribution infrastructure. In addition such a small market can easily be controlled by monopolies and there is always the possibility that overseas films will be favoured to the detriment of South African productions.

As far as distribution is concerned, the rural areas at present lack an infrastructure and the viewing public in the Black community is therefore underserviced at present. The effect of television on the viewing public should not be underestimated. There has been an average decrease of 39% in the viewing public since television was introduced and this has had a serious effect on the industry.

Other problems which the industry has to face, is that the risks are great, the investments are considerable and it is not possible to determine the success of films in advance. Moreover, the South African market is faced by the problem that there is a tendency to neglect the films’ technical quality.

The Government’s responsible action over the years to assist this industry has led to other malpractices, however. The measures which were supposed to serve as an incentive for the industry were hijacked even by garment manufacturers who boast in their annual reports of savings of more than a million rand in income tax by way of an abnormal item which is connected with the film industry. Perhaps hon members of the DP should not read the newspapers so selectively for they then would also have been aware of this fact.

Further cause for concern is that the exchange rate could eventually have negative consequences for the film industry in South Africa. Because the exchange rate for the rand is low, it does not pay local distributors to make extensive use of the distribution opportunities. This means that foreign distributors also do not such great financial benefits as would be the case otherwise, and consequently may withdraw more easily, particularly under pressure of sanctions.

Furthermore the film industry of South Africa is weighed down by an historical political burden. Because of cultural boycotts, material for broadcasting and viewing purposes is already being withheld. As regards the censorship system, concern has been expressed that if the Government were to undertake a greater financing role, it would also claim greater control. This concern was unfounded. The political dispensation which is developing at present obviously offers great opportunities for propaganda and we shall guard against exploitation in this regard.

Firstly I want to compliment the hon the Minister and the hon the State President for taking the initiative in undertaking the State President’s Conference in March 1988. The task group’s main aim was identified as being an attempt to bring about stimulation and growth in the industry as a whole. An investigation into the problems regarding the existing subsidy scheme and the tax rebates on the international marketing of films was regarded as a priority by the task group and the report was submitted to the hon the Minister in February.

Quality has become a prerequisite in the case of the sophisticated viewer. It is essential that expert technicians, well-trained actors and capable script-writers should be available. Moreover, facilities such as laboratories form part of an important infrastructure. Film material has to be bought and imported from overseas at great expense and it may be desirable to aim incentives at improving the quality of the films.

Possible solutions could be found in co-operating partnerships between various participating parties such as the theatres, the video distributors, M-Net and SATV. It is quite obvious that the industry could supply a better quality product if the training facilities in the country were to improve. That is why the task group also referred to the Pretoria Technikon’s major contribution in this regard and also to the many awards its students have received.

Furthermore, it is important to strengthen the local market and efforts should be made to create and stimulate successful export opportunities. This would mean a great deal to the country in general since it could introduce South Africa to the world as a reforming country and could also bring about other indirect advantages such as the stimulation of tourism.

It is also important for the local industry to survive the present sanctions campaign and economic squeeze. The task group also referred to the necessity for reviewing some of the limiting legislation such as the Registration of Copyright in Cinematograph Films Act and other related legislation which in their opinion has to be investigated and amended urgently.

One of the repeated appeals which will once again be placed under the spotlight, is the issue of film shows on Sundays. It was pointed out that South Africa is the only Western country where this is prohibited and it has been argued that it presents the market with important possibilities for growth.

A further recommendation is that the parents’ part in the educational task be extended and that parents exercise control over what their children view. Countries with successful systems, such as America and Australia, were mentioned.

I hope that the preceding arguments have shown that the problems which the department will have to investigate in depth are extensive and that a short quotation from a single newspaper does not offer any solutions. Mr Thys Heyns, the Chairman of the South African Film and Video Institute in fact paved the way when he said:

Die plaaslike rolprent se grootste inset is egter nie in kontant te meet nie. Dit is die bedryf wat tot die hart en siel van mense spreek, wat moraal bou in tyd van nood, wat menings vorm en leefwyses bepaal soos geen ander dit kan doen nie. Hierin lê sy grootse waarde veral nou dat die dreiginge van sanksies en isolasie die slagspreuke buite ons grense ge-word het.
*Mr P A S MOPP:

Mr Chairman, it is an honour to listen to such a fine speech made by such a beautiful woman. The hon member Mrs Jager must forgive me, however, because I am not going to speak in the same vein.

Instead I want to begin with the hon member for Germiston who carried on here like a modern Jimmy Swaggart. Since the hon member spoke English, I shall switch to English.

†The hon member for Germiston posed the question as to why people spend millions of rands outside the borders of this country to condemn this country.

*The answer is quite simple. The hon member need not spend ten minutes or more explaining anything to us. It is very simple. When hon members of the NP are honest with us and change the policy they are applying, they will not need to spend millions. It will not cost them one cent, because those same people are going to use all those millions of rands to praise South Africa.

Mr D CHRISTOPHERS:

Do you believe in Snow White too?

*Mr P A S MOPP:

If you are the dwarf, yes. [Interjections.]

The hon the Minister is like a conjuror. When one thinks back to the elections of 26 October 1988, this hon Minister gave everyone in South Africa to understand by means of the use of “Chipniks” that they were involved in a municipal election. It is amazing how many of my people believed that they were taking part in a municipal election. They elected a management committee which serves as an advisory board for a municipality. There were no municipal elections for them. The same applies in the case of the country’s Black inhabitants. Because use was made of the “Chipniks” night after night, however, everyone believed that they had taken part in the municipal election.

At a meeting in the Transvaal the other day, the hon the Minister said the NP believed in democracy. I want the hon the Minister to spell out to us in what democracy he believes when he has a chance to reply today.

†I was taught that democracy means government of the people by the people for the people.

An HON MEMBER:

Separately.

Mr P A S MOPP:

This is what I was taught. The hon the Minister says the NP believes in democracy. Why is the majority of South Africans excluded from this system? The hon the Minister, as political head of this department, must explain to this Committee why the word democracy is used selectively.

*The hon the Minister acts like a conjuror. The people believe there is democracy in the country. There is no democracy.

Mr D CHRISTOPHERS:

What are you doing where you are now?

Mr P A S MOPP:

If I were what I ought to be, and that hon member was what he ought to be, both of us would be free.

*The hon member must not think we are satisfied with the trickery that is going on here just because we are sitting here. It is trickery; the hon member knows that just as well as I do. [Interjections.] The only thing we have here is certain administrative obligations. We do not have decision-making powers as the NP does. The hon member must not try to sell us that story.

†Some hon members believe that because we are participating in this tricameral system, we have reached the end of the road. We have only reached the starting blocks. That is the difference.

Mr D CHRISTOPHERS:

We agree for once.

*Mr P A S MOPP:

My father and grandfather said the only good Englishmen were those in the cemetery. [Interjections.] I should like to have that image changed …

*Mr D CHRISTOPHERS:

I believe that myself.

*Mr P A S MOPP:

If the hon member carries on in this way, however, I shall believe what my grandfather and my father said. I do not want to believe it. The hon member must please leave me alone and keep quiet.

†We have come to the stage where we have to practise real democracy. At that meeting the hon the Minister also said that he wants participation by all people in the system of Government. He must please spell it out to us. We do not want the hon the Minister to elect leaders for the Black community. If this is done, those leaders will be unacceptable. Why does the hon the Minister not unban the ANC so that they can elect their own leaders to negotiate with the Government? Why is the Government afraid of unbanning the ANC? The Government is prepared to talk to the Cubans. It is prepared to go to Cuba to break bread with Fidel Castro. The Government is prepared to talk to the Angolans. Why can it therefore not talk to our brothers in this country? [Interjections.]

Mr D CHRISTOPHERS:

… we talked to them then.

*Mr P A S MOPP:

Mr Chairman, it is not a disgrace. We talk to the ANC every day. The ANC is not in Lusaka. The ANC is in East London, in Cape Town and throughout the country. I invite the hon member to go to East London with me; I shall show him who the ANC is.

*Mr D CHRISTOPHERS:

I have many in my own constituency. You do not know what you are talking about; the ANC and …

*Mr P A S MOPP:

You are still so stupid when it comes to politics; we still have a lot to teach you. [Interjections.]

*The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr A Stanley):

Order!

Mr P A S MOPP:

You are like a political dog barking out of a political kennel.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr A Stanley):

Order! The hon member should not make any personal remarks.

Mr P A S MOPP:

I am not making any personal remarks. I am saying he is a political dog barking out of a political kennel.

Mr R S SCHOEMAN:

You are bombastic.

Mr P A S MOPP:

The hon member comes into this Chamber where he runs head-on into people of colour. He does not really want us here. However, he has to face the fact that we are here and that we are not going to leave.

Mr D CHRISTOPHERS:

Don’t you talk for me, I will talk for myself!

*Mr P A S MOPP:

Jimmy Swaggart, please, I have finished with you.

Mr R S SCHOEMAN:

You are bombastic!

*Mr P A S MOPP:

The hon member says I am rude and bombastic. Yes.

*Mr R S SCHOEMAN:

That is correct!

*Mr P A S MOPP:

That is how it should be until he reaches his senses and realises his policy must change. Let us begin there. [Interjections.] He says we shall not manage that. The fact is that he must hear this, however, because for too long he has been too deaf to hear it. He was deaf right up to the sixties. The ANC are shooting people now to get their ears open. I am talking harshly here today so that he can understand that those people against whom he has declared war are fellow citizens of this country. The time has come for negotiation to take place between us, them and everyone.

†That is where the hon the Minister’s concept of democracy comes in. He spoke of democracy. He must show us now how he is going to implement that democracy. That is important.

We all want peace in this country. We do not want people to be blown up by terrorists. We also condemn the ANC in the strongest possible terms for the methods they use. However, we have the same end-result in mind. That is the difference. We also want to see a free South Africa.

The hon member said that there would not be Black majority rule within the next 10 years. My question is whether there will be Black majority rule in the eleventh year. [Interjections.] Why will there be a democracy or Black majority rule in the eleventh year? Why did the hon member say there will not be Black majority rule within 10 years? I want him to explain to us why he said 10 years. Is he going to surrender after 10 years? He must please explain this situation to us. [Interjections.]

We were forced to pull out of Namibia, not because of the military victories that were achieved there, but because we did not have the money to carry on with the war. The red flag will fly in Namibia. Swapo will win the election.

Mrs E J CHAIT:

Never!

Mr P A S MOPP:

The hon member must please not say never because then she does not know her politics. If there is a free and fair election in South Africa tomorrow the ANC will walk it—we all know it—in the same way Swapo is going to walk it in Namibia.

*An HON MEMBER:

They will not!

Mr P A S MOPP:

I will be with them, but the hon member will not be with them; that is the difference.

We have got to reach the stage in South Africa where we face reality. As long as the Government insists that the ANC must forswear violence we will have problems in this country. Let us accept the status quo as it is. Let us accept that here is a body that is committed to violence and let us get them around the table so that we can work out a constitution which will be acceptable to them …

*Mr S J SCHOEMAN:

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I think the hon member is a very long way from the Bureau for Information Vote.

*Mr P A S MOPP:

With all due respect, it is the hon the Minister’s duty to inform us. I am asking the hon the Minister specifically to inform us on the future. How are we going to obtain democracy and peace if the hon the Minister cannot inform us?

*Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

He does not know where he wants to go himself!

*An HON MEMBER:

You and Koos agree, do you not?

*Mr P A S MOPP:

I agree. At least that hon member for Overvaal is honest and sincere. [Interjections.] I want the hon the Minister …

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr A Stanley):

Order! I cannot allow two debates at the same time. Hon members must give the speaker a fair opportunity to put his case.

Mr P A S MOPP:

Sir, I thank you for your protection. [Interjections.] The hon the Minister has got to spell out his plan to us. We all want peace in this country. We all have that in common. The policy of the hon the Minister has cost this country billions in terms of the statement of the hon member for Germiston. How are we going to get democracy—this government of the people, by the people, for the people. If he can spell that out to us today …

Mr J W MAREE:

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member if he knows of any multiracial country in Africa where democracy—as he has described it—has been successful?

Mr P A S MOPP:

I live in South Africa. I want democracy to be successful here. [Interjections.]

*No, I live in South Africa. This is where it must be implemented, not elsewhere. I am a South African in case the hon member did not know. [Interjections.]

†It has never worked elsewhere. [Interjections.] That is his information. I wanted to work in this country, that is why I am asking the hon the Minister this question.

Mr J W MAREE:

Do you know of any multiracial society with deep divisions in the world where the kind of democracy that you have propagated works?

Mr P A S MOPP:

The hon member must ask his Minister not to say that South Africa is a democracy, because it is not.

Mr J W MAREE:

Nowhere in the world is there democracy.

Mr P A S MOPP:

Right, nowhere in the world is there democracy. Nowhere in the world are 19 million people excluded from having a vote— just in South Africa.

*The Whites dominate everyone, but they say it is democracy. That is their rendition of democracy. When the 19 million people at large want the franchise, suddenly it is no longer democracy, but then we are asked where in the world there is any such thing.

*Mr D CHRISTOPHERS:

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon member?

*Mr P A S MOPP:

No, the hon member is merely wasting my time.

†Nowhere in the world is there a White minority governing so many other people. If those hon members think it is democracy, we say it is not.

The hon the Minister spoke along the right track when he said that he wanted South Africa to become a democracy. As I understand democracy, and he agreed that that is the concept of democracy which we should follow, then let us work towards that goal.

*The MINISTER OF INFORMATION, BROADCASTING SERVICES AND THE FILM INDUSTRY:

Mr Chairman, I want to react briefly to some of the things mentioned by hon members. I just want to say, however, that in principle this debate about the form democracy in South Africa should assume, cannot be conducted here.

If we were to accept that it is my task to provide information, it is my task to provide information on the activities of every other department in the Public Service, in other words the debate on information would then become a free debate on any subject with regard to the entire Government. To avoid that, one of necessity has to debate what hon members have discussed here now during the debate on the Vote of the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning. [Interjections.] I do not want to run away from all these things; that is simply the discipline involved.

I do want to deviate from the rule in that connection in one respect, because reference was made to what I had said at a meeting, and because an incorrect perspective was placed on it. I think it is time to rectify it here so that hon members can know what I said on that occasion and what I meant by it. Unfortunately the rest of the constitutional debate cannot be conducted here.

It is true that this newspaper report says that I “gave the guarantee that South Africa would not be ruled by a Black majority government within the next ten years”.

†The hon member for Border asked why ten years, what happens during the eleventh year? The point is that I was asked from the floor: “Can the Minister give a guarantee that we will not have Black majority rule in ten years’ time?” I said “yes”. [Interjections.] I said more than “yes”. There was another part to the question, namely whether there will be Black people in Government. I said the policy of the NP and of the Government was expressly to include Black people in the Government. So I responded “yes” to that as well. I said that we did not want a Black government in South Africa; we want a government representing all the people of South Africa. That is what I actually said.

In other words, from that perspective the government that I have in mind will not be a Blacks-only government. What is normally understood to be a Black majority government is a Black government that will be able to rule to the exclusion of everybody else. That sort of government is not acceptable to the NP. At that stage I spoke as a NP politician. [Interjections.] I said that we wanted a government in which all the people of South Africa would be represented. That is a true definition of democracy and I assume the hon member for Diamant and the hon member for Border will agree with me on that point. [Interjections.]

At the time I also said if we could stop fighting one another in this country and start working together, there would be no limit to the heights this country could achieve. Unfortunately I cannot speak for the newspaper reporters who are not very favourably inclined. This is in fact what I said in that case. [Interjections.] The point I wanted to make—especially in reply to the hon member for Diamant—is that the major part of his speech on this point consisted of statements that I can go a long way towards agreeing with. Therefore the gulf between the two of us is not as large as appeared from his speech this afternoon. There is a great deal that we have in common. We also differ on important points. That is why we have to sit around the table and talk. Incidentally, this is another point on which I would like to differ with the hon member for Border, namely that it is very difficult to talk to people who sit with guns on their laps. As long as somebody is actively committed to violence it is very difficult to start negotiating about the creation of a democracy, because the very essence of a democracy is a commitment to a peaceful resolution of political disputes. [Interjections.] That is the very essence of democracy. It becomes very difficult when one starts mixing these two games. The fact that these two games are mixed up is part of the problem in South Africa. It is a completely different matter when one deals with an international conflict, when it concerns the cessation of international hostility. I just wanted to state my position with regard to that particular point.

I would now like to address the hon member for Johannesburg North. The hon member for Pinetown concurred with him on some essential elements. My problem with the hon member for Johannesburg North is that he mentioned the municipal campaign as one instance in which the Bureau for Information propagated NP policy. Those are his words.

*If that is how one is going to define the matter, we shall never ever be able to agree on what is and is not acceptable. The Bureau was very careful in this campaign not to promote the standpoint of any political party, and not even to condone or denigrate the fact that there are separate local authorities. That was not the point. What was at issue was the function and the advantage of local government, the participation in elections and information in that connection. The hon member for Johannesburg North said, however, that it was nothing but R5 000 that was being spent on promoting NP policy. One cannot discuss a point of that nature.

There is more, however. The hon member for Johannesburg North spoke here this afternoon. I merely want the Committee to take cognisance of this. The hon member said R48 million was being spent on propagating NP policy. The hon member for Pinetown is shaking his head, and he said so a moment ago as well. [Interjections.] They know very well—if they do not, they must take another look—that at least R9 million of that R48 million they are talking about has nothing to do with the normal functions of the Bureau for Information, but is a payment of the subsidy to the film industry. That statement on the R48 million, as it stands, is completely wrong in any case.

This approach is typical of the hon member for Johannesburg North. He simply makes wild statements and throws everything in one basket and gets that typical knee-jerk reaction. Anything the Bureau for Information does is wrong and is of necessity NP propaganda. [Interjections.]

This matter was discussed earlier today. We can talk about it and we can try to draw a better distinction between Government information and party propaganda in a proper, meaningful discussion with one another.

In that respect I must say the hon member for Randfontein made a much more constructive contribution than the hon member for Johannesburg North. [Interjections.] We can differ with one another, but if we simply tar everything with the same brush, we get no further. That is my problem. Then we get no further. The hon member for Johannesburg North must therefore take cognisance of the fact that he tried to mislead this Committee by simply adding the R9 million for the film industry—about which he is under no misapprehension—to the rest of the Bureau’s activities. That is typical of his style.

I shall leave it at that for today, and continue my reply to hon members’ speeches tomorrow.

Debate interrupted.

The Committee adjourned at 18h02.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

Mr Speaker:

1. The following members have been appointed to serve on the Committees mentioned, viz:

House of Assembly

Health and Welfare-. Mr M J Ellis in the stead of Dr M S Barnard, who has been discharged from service.

Cultural Affairs Bill (House of Assembly) and Cultural Institutions Bill (House of Assembly). Messrs J A Brazelie, R M Burrows, Dr J T Delport, Messrs M J Ellis, A Gerber, Dr T J King, Mr P G Marais, Adv G B My-burgh, Messrs D S Pienaar, S J Schoe-man (Sunnyside), Prof S J Schoeman (Walmer), Drs P J Steenkamp, J J Swanepoel, Messrs K D Swanepoel and J G van Zyl (Chairman).

House of Delegates

Trade and Industry: Mr M Rajab in the stead of Mr A G Hurbans, who has been discharged from service.

2. The Minister of National Education:

General Affairs:

(1) Withdrawal of Cultural Institutions Amendment Bill [B 75—87 (GA)].

TABLINGS:

Papers:

General Affairs:

1. The Minister of Justice:

Report of the Department of Justice for 1987-88.

2. The Minister of Agriculture:

List relating to Government Notices (Department of Agricultural Economics and Marketing)—17 March to 14 April 1989.

3. The Minister of Economic Affairs and Technology:

Report of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research for 1987-88, and the publication Technology Impact.

4. The Minister of Finance:

Resolutions of the Joint Committee on Public Accounts for 1988 and the Treasury’s replies thereto.

5. The Acting Minister of Manpower:

Report of the Department of Manpower for 1988 [RP 67—89].