Mr. Speaker, when the House adjourned yesterday evening I was discussing planning and mentioned the example of a swallow that does not always plan well and continues to return to the same place year after year. Planning is important in every facet of life. I realize that when one establishes a town, one does not always know whether it is going to remain small or whether it is going to grow. As a result of a lack of foresight or a lack of information, the planning is therefore not always as thorough as it should be, and that is why it is essential that wherever buildings are erected there must be thorough consideration of the potential for growth facing that specific project in the future. This is particularly true of Government bodies where the money comes out of the pocket of the taxpayer or the consumer. How many examples are there not of buildings that were initially large enough but eventually became too small. I know that years ago when the mines shut down, it was said on the East Rand that my home town would become a ghost town. That did not happen, and all the ghosts have been laid.

You are the only ghost left. That is all you can do.

Order! The hon. member may not refer to the hon. member for Nigel as a ghost.

Sir, I withdraw it.

Mr. Speaker, I pay no heed to a voice from the realm of the dead and I shall therefore proceed.

The post office at Nigel was built not that many years ago on premises which cannot be enlarged without incurring great expense. Within five years it will be too small. I can already foresee this. It is not possible to add another floor because the foundations were not built with this in mind. It is for this reason that I want to make a serious appeal, when new post offices are planned, for the possibility of further expansions to be borne in mind. It is important that when planning is done, a blueprint should be drawn up and expansions made systematically according to that specific blueprint so that the additions made to the structure in future will be in keeping with the original structure. In that way one can prevent a building from not fitting in with any style of development. I know that our cultural heritage is linked to a style of a specific period. Planning cannot be over-emphasized.

I can mention the case of one of the smallest post offices in my constituency, namely Daggafontein. No one will ever know how that post office was initially planned. However, I hope and trust that that post office will also go to the drawing-board at some or other stage.

I am also extremely grateful to note that enclosed public telephone booths are disappearing. Although those telephone booths protected the privacy of people to a certain extent, they were also used for many purposes other than that for which they were built. I am grateful that these telephone booths are being removed. The sooner this is done, the better.

I am also very glad to note that solar energy is being used to an increasing extent. The sun was not created by man. It therefore does not change. If we can utilize that source, which is free of charge, it will be ideal. In case of problems, for example sabotage, the eternal sun will always be available to provide energy to keep our installations going. I want to congratulate the Post Office, which is setting this example, and wish it every success. I also hope that private enterprise will participate in assisting this development further. At the same time I hope and trust that solar energy systems, which are not in the least complex, will also be used in future for domestic purposes. Solar energy can become the cheapest source of energy in South Africa. It is a pity that more use is not made of solar energy.

I am also very glad that the hon. the Minister gave the assurance—I cannot remember to which hon. member—that when new post offices are built, the matter of crowding out is also considered so that our Whites will not be inundated in post offices. It is only a Rip van Winkle who is unaware that the Whites of South Africa are being crowded out. It is essential that we give everyone what they are entitled to so that we Whites can also retain what we have, without prejudicing the services of others, to which they are entitled. In other words, it must be a case of freedom through justice. I am very grateful—I want to emphasize this—that the hon. the Minister said that. We are greatly indebted to him for this.

At the beginning of my speech I referred to tariff increases. It was a well-intentioned speech. My intentions were good when I recommended those lower tariff increases and I know this is not being held against me. In future there will be even less cause to hold this against me if one considers what appeared in yesterday evening’s Vaderland, in consequence of an investigation by the HSRC, that warns us earnestly that we shall have to be on our guard. I shall only make a short quote from the article—

The report goes on to mention the names of people consulted in this connection and the results are given. In every respect this is a warning to the Government, and we should be warned in good time so that we can do everything possible. The hon. the Minister is in fact trying to do this, and I hope—in fact, I know—that he will continue with this. After all, I have known him for many years. I have a great deal of respect for him. Of course my warning also applies to the Government as a whole. The Government must set an example, and if it emanates from all of us, the general public will also participate automatically. [Time expired.]

Mr. Speaker, we have come to the end of an interesting debate. The hon. the Minister has given many replies, but unfortunately there are many replies he has not had time to give.

I want to take issue with him, however, in the kindest possible fashion, because I believe that the hon. the Minister sometimes suggests that people say things that they do not actually say. In his Second Reading reply he suggested that I had said that there must be no tariff increase. Then he quoted Eshowe’s problems as giving an example on my wanting the best service without wanting any tariff increases. That is not commendable, because never at any stage in my argument did I suggest that there should be no tariff increases. I accept that there has to be an increase, but I questioned the size of that increase in relation to the amount of money required for capital projects. This was the point on which I took issue with the hon. the Minister. I did not, however, suggest that there should be no tariff increases. I questioned the size of the increases because of the economic situation in which we find ourselves at present, and perhaps it is just as well for me to say a little more about that at the moment, because I believe that we must find each other on this issue.

I agree with what the hon. member for Hillbrow said this year and last year. I think he has a very good point when he says that we should have regular increases. I wonder whether it is not time for us to plan regular increases and to determine a new policy in this regard. Is it not time for us to look at the whole concept of tariff adjustments and have regular increases which could be closely monitored in the current economic conditions? Should we not have these until such time as we have developed a fund—I do not know whether equalization fund or stabilization fund is the better term for it—to act as a buffer? If we plan this over say the next five years or eight years, we could thereafter look at increases as being something that must be contained with-in the parameters controlled by the equalization fund, instead of being controlled more on an ad hoc-basis by current economic conditions. Those increases could then be controlled in the sense that they could be balanced by utilizing funds in the equalization fund. This a long-term project, but I think it is something that could be a tremendous boon, not only for the Post Office but also for commerce and industry. It will assist in budget planning and in general planning from the Post Office’s point of view and it will certainly assist commerce and industry.

Later in his speech the hon. the Minister dealt with Eshowe. I am very grateful that he is aware of this problem and I am grateful, too, that he is going to address himself to it, because this is a problem I think we are going to have continuously.

There is another aspect which, I believe, shows that the hon. the Minister sometimes reacts to things that people did not necessarily say. I want to refer to the hon. the Minister’s reply to the Second Reading debate. I quote his Hansard (16 March, 1983)—

Then he said—

Sir, that is not what I said. Let me refer to my Hansard. I said—

The hon. the Minister, by way of interjection, asked—

I replied—

The hon. the Minister would suggest that I had said I did not know what inflation was, but I said I did not know how much it would contribute to inflation. The hon. the Minister, in his reply, went on to admit that he himself did not know, but had to refer to experts. I quote him—

He then went on to give us the figures I was seeking, for which I am grateful. It ill befits him, however, to try to score these little political points. I am pleased to see that he is now smiling about it, because he knows full well that he has been caught with his pants around his ankles on this one. Let us not play these games, please. Let us talk with each other, let us debate with each other, but let us not try to score these little points.

When it comes to monopolies, I want to say that I never suggested that the Post Office should be handed over to private enterprise.

You talked about a captive clientele.

I talked about a captive clientele, and I will continue to talk about a captive clientele. I want to say that I accept that the State is the only body that can set up and provide the infrastructure that is required for a vast undertaking such as the Post Office. Nobody else can do it. I am, however, critical of the effect monopolies have on staff motivation. I am not just talking about the Post Office monopoly, but any monopoly. It is true for monopolies in the quasi-State structure, in the State structure and in companies in the private sector. We all know that they have this effect on staff motivation. I think of a particular company in Durban, a conglomerate. It is a giant. If one goes in there and tries to buy what it has to offer, one wonders how it stays in business. It is incredible. I do not want to bandy its name across the floor of the House, but it is incredible how it stays in business. The only reason why it stays in business is that it is the only company which can supply its particular commodity. I am not saying that the Post Office does this. I am simply saying that it can have this effect and that we must be wary of it. I am warning against it, that is all I am doing. The hon. the Minister suggested that I had said the Post Office was taking back drop-outs. I am sorry, Sir, but that was not what I was implying at all. I do not believe that that is the case.

Finally, earlier in his speech the hon. the Minister spoke about the SATS. He said he did not want to compare the SATS with the Post Office. I am glad that he is not a gentleman who likes comparisons. I sincerely hope he never uses them and I am happy that he does not want to compare the SATS with the Post Office. Later on in his speech he spoke about the matter I raised in the SATS debate. That was in connection with the Post Office transporting its own mail. I think he expected me to raise that, but I want to surprise him: I am on his side in this matter. I support the fact that he is ripping-off the SATS. I am in favour of him transporting mail in the way that he does because I know and I have proof positive of the fact that it has done a lot towards getting mail to its destination faster. I do not believe that the Railways in many instances deserve to carry the mail because they slow it up.

Last year I took issue with this hon. Minister’s predecessor on express mail. I think the hon. member for South Coast produced an envelope with an express mail sticker on it that had taken something like three months to reach him. But what is the case this year? Let us not always say the bad things. Let us bring a few envelopes that are slightly different. I have an express mail article in my hand addressed to me and it is date-stamped at the back “Parliament, 24.9.1982—14h00”. I received that at my home in Glenashly the next morning at 10h35.

Before it was posted!

That is incredible. Here is another piece that was date-stamped “Durban, 8h00 on 20.9.1982”—September was a good month I might tell you; I am a Virgo myself—and this was received at my home four and a half hours later. That is moving. That is the effect of the Post Office moving its own mail. I am on the hon. the Minister’s side. Continue by all means to rip off the SATS.

Unfortunately my time has run out; so let me close by saying that I would like the hon. the Minister to know that as Posts and Telecommunications spokesman in these benches I am deeply appreciative of the fact that this hon. Minister has seen fit this year to furnish us with a copy of his speech on the day that he delivers it and at the same time that it is furnished to the Press and the media under an embargo. We have the ridiculous situation in this House—and I want to stress, please, that this is not an anti-Press utterance—where the Press is issued with budget announcements under an embargo, but hon. members in this House who are concerned with the subject matter of those speeches have to sit in the House completely oblivious of what is going to come and they have no time to sit and quietly study the context of a speech as this hon. Minister’s action has permitted us to do. I suggest that what this hon. Minister has done is something that the other two hon. gentlemen who present budgets in this House would do well to emulate. I sincerely hope that he will continue to do this because it has been of tremendous value and I honestly believe that it has done much to contribute to the better standard of debate that we have had this year compared with that that I have ever heard in the nine years that I have been dealing with Post Office matters from this side of the House.

Mr. Speaker, I seem to have a healthy effect on the hon. member for Umhlanga because every time he knows I am to speak after him he makes a speech with some sensible moments. I therefore want to suggest that he concentrates on these lucid moments as it may also improve his political thoughts. My time being limited, the hon. member will forgive me if I do not follow up what he has had to say.

*I should like to dwell for a moment on what the hon. member for Nigel said here yesterday and today. The hon. member referred to the importance of planning and said that if there was no planning one found oneself in a mess. That is indeed true. He was quite right. In order to plan thoroughly one must be sure that one’s facts are correct and that the principles on which one is planning are sound. After all, the hon. member and his fellow dissentients planned for years to highjack this side of the House, but unfortunately their principles were not sound. Now they are in a pickle on that side and their numbers are dwindling.

The hon. member for Kuruman is another example. Unfortunately he is not here now. Last year before the municipal elections that hon. member decided to hold a victory feast in Kuruman even before the elections had taken place. Unfortunately his facts were incorrect, because all his candidates lost the election. [Interjections.] I now read in the newspapers that the hon. the leader of the CP is also going to hold a victory feast on 12 May. All one can conclude from this is that some people never learn from their mistakes.

However, that is all I have to say about the hon. members of the CP and I now want to discuss something more important. I want to suggest that the positive approach of the Department of Posts and Telecommunications to the provision of accommodation for its officials is making a unique contribution towards alleviating the urgent housing shortage.

The Rev. Allan Hendrickse will not want you.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Langlaagte should rather keep quiet.

I am just saying that Allan Hendrickse will not accept you in his party. [Interjections.]

Mr. Speaker, if ever there was a political jumble (mengelmoes) it is the hon. member for Langlaagte. In his racist principles he has already passed the HNP on the one side, but, like a good Prog, he is practicing PFP politics by paying people to arrange demonstrations. [Interjections.] When his arrangements go wrong, he acts like Jimmy Abbott at Jan Smuts airport. [Interjections.]

Rajbansi will not want you either.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Langlaagte should rather go back so that they can finish planning him before he returns to this House. [Interjections.]

When I look at you I know where they started with a mixed Parliament. [Interjections.]

Mr. Speaker, I think we should ignore the hon. member for Langlaagte. I said the Department of Posts and Telecommunications is making a unique contribution through its housing policy to finding a solution to the urgent housing shortage. This housing programme, linked to a purposeful policy of decentralization by the suppliers of the department can, I feel, also make a tremendous contribution to the entire development of regional development areas like East London.

In essence the housing problem is one of finance. The other components needed to provide housing—material, labour and expertise—are available. I should like to say more about this in due course. It is sufficient merely to point out that it is estimated that by the year 2000—which is just 17 years away—a total of approximately 3,5 million dwelling units will have to be provided in South Africa. At a most conservative estimate this presupposes a capital supply of R70 billion; or R4 billion per annum. It goes without saying that the State cannot make this enormous investment alone. It is therefore essential that the supply base for housing capital should be broadened, inter alia by involving employers, of which the Department is one, in the provision of accommodation to its employees of all race groups.

I feel that the Department is already making a contribution in this field, a contribution which can and will be extended in terms of this budget and possible adjustments to it.

In the first place there is the Department’s own housing loan scheme which was introduced in December 1980 and in connection with which legislation will be discussed in this House at a later stage today. In terms of this legislation money, linked to income at low interest rates on a sliding scale, is made available to officials to purchase their own homes. Since the introduction of this scheme in December 1980 until November 1982, 5 080 applications were received and 1 314 loans totalling R55,6 million were granted.

This scheme has made a definite contribution to a stable labour force. At present, however, it is confined mainly to the metropolitan areas, as well as to the Transvaal platteland. When capital and interest repayments generate more money and more loans can therefore be made available to the staff of the Post Office, I want to ask that this scheme be extended as quickly as possible to other centres—and of course to East London in particular.

A second contribution being made by the Department of Posts and Telecommunications is the provision of official accommodation at reasonable rentals to officials in areas where accommodation is difficult or impossible to find. This has definitely contributed to recruiting and retaining suitable staff. The intention of the Department to make official dwellings and flats available for sale, under suitable circumstances at economic conditions, to the relevant officials must be strongly endorsed. This will give officials who have given years of faithful service an opportunity to acquire immovable property, which they would otherwise not have been able to do. The fund thus obtained and the saving on maintenance costs could in turn be utilized to obtain and provide further housing in that area. This scheme too is at present confined to certain areas and I feel that with the rapid development of certain areas, circumstances also justify this scheme being extended to other centres.

The third important contribution by the Post Office in the field of housing is the 100% loan scheme for Government officials administered by the Department of Community Development and also available to officials of the Department of Posts and Telecommunications. The improvements to this scheme and particularly the availability of this scheme now to unmarried persons will enable young people to purchase homes, and we are very glad about this.

From what I have said it is clear that with its extensive and constantly revised housing policy, the Department is setting an example worthy of being follwed by other employers and one can only make a serious appeal to them to play their part in this connection. If this were to happen it would bring a solution to the housing question within our reach and what is now seen as a burden could become an opportunity for economic and community development. In an area such as East London, for example, there is already a tremendous need for housing while a serious unemployment problem is also being experienced. If a large-scale housing project were to be tackled there it would serve a dual purpose in that it would on the one hand provide housing and would make on the other essential employment opportunities available. Bearing in mind its staff requirements the Department could take the lead in this respect and in this way make a real contribution in these areas.

In respect of industrial development I also feel that the Department could play a role in these areas in addition to supplying the necessary infrastructures. Considering the strategic nature of its services it is essential for South Africa to become selfsufficient as far as possible with regard to its telecommunication needs and more specifically its electronics industry. By means of sound co-operation and liaison with local suppliers the Department has to a large extent succeeded in this. The decentralization of these industries or parts of them can, however, be arranged successfully while at the same time maintaining efficiency. Such decentralization linked to a purposeful housing programme for employees who are thus employed, would be a tremendous boost to development in these areas.

The Department plays an extremely strategic role in South Africa which I believe can be extended in the ways I have indicated and will I believe continue to do so in terms of this budget. It is therefore a pleasure for this side of the House to give its full support to the Third Reading of this Bill as well.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for East London City dealt in considerable detail with the question of housing. The hon. member mentioned the fact that there is another Bill which will come before this House once this debate has been completed, in terms of which this matter can be dealt with. I agree with the hon. member that the matter can be dealt with at that stage because I do not have the time to deal with it now.

I should like to refer in the first instance to the speech made by the hon. member for Boksburg and the reply thereto by the hon. the Minister with regard to the fact that the people of South Africa should be considered as consumers of the telephone service. In this connection the question arises where the taxpayers should not be regarded as shareholders. The Post Office is an enormous business, and like any other business it has a chairman, a managing director, a board of directors, shareholders and consumers. This applies to every business and it definitely applies to this one.

The hon. the Minister is really the chairman of this company, the Postmaster-General is the managing Director and this House is the board of directors on behalf of the taxpayers of South Africa. The consumers are the people who utilize the service. Therefore it is not necessary to disregard the taxpayer as such. He pays for us to be the directors in this particular House. When we sit here as a board of directors and I ask for the publication of a White Paper giving us some idea of where this business is going to go to over the next five years, I think we are entitled to receive that information. This business is a gigantic business and those of us who have a little experience of business know that it is necessary to have such facts. By the time we receive the report of the department, the information it contains is more than a year old. We do not only want to know what happened two years ago; we also should like to know in which direction the department is going.

The hon. the Minister criticizes the role of the Opposition. He knows as well as every hon. member that the Government is always going to approve of what the hon. the Minister says. The Government is not going to be critical, and if we are not critical, then we might as well have a “ja-broer” House in which all of us thank the hon. the Minister. It is absolutely necessary that every member of a board of directors should be able to criticize and not be criticized by the chairman if he makes a remark which is not to the chairman’s liking.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 75.

Mr. Speaker, I was under the impression that the hon. member still had time at his disposal, but I take it that the time is being kept correctly. Nevertheless I shall proceed with my reply.

†The hon. member for Bezuidenhout was the last member who participated in this debate. I think somewhere along the line there could have been a miscalculation because I was given to understand that he had more time in which to address the House. In these circumstances I intend being very lenient with him, and therefore I shall not refer to much of what he has said.

I think it is a new concept that this House is now regarded as a board of directors, the members of which are paid by the taxpayers to watch their interests. The taxpayer as such has no interest in posts and telecommunications—I think this was put very clearly by the hon. member for Boksburg—except that the taxpayer is a consumer. The consumer is the person who has a share.

But the Post Office pays you. One can also say that the taxpayer pays you.

I am not talking about my salary.

The taxpayer pays my salary too.

The hon. member said that Parliament is the board of directors and because all the members of Parliament are paid by the taxpayers, the members have a brief to watch the interests of the taxpayers.

Of course, that is what a member has to do.

But that is an infantile type of argument. We are here dealing with a department. I as the Minister sit in the Cabinet and every member of Parliament has a full say in any of the matters of the department, but not because he is paid by the taxpayers. He is in any event paid by the taxpayers, but he has the full right, as a member of Parliament, to be able to take part in debates.

But he represents the taxpayers.

It does not matter whom he represents. I do not think that is part of the argument at all.

The hon. member raised a question about a White Paper. I have no problem about informing Parliament about our future planning. It can be done by way of debate especially to consider information on our future planning.

I want to start off by making a few general remarks. Perhaps I should start with a quotation by Confucius which I think is applicable to me. Confucius, in one of his wise moments, said—

I think it is important in any type of debate in which one deals with technical matters that one should realize what one knows and what one does not know. We have been debating now for a number of hours and it is interesting to note, in the last stages of this particular budget, that this particular year has been proclaimed by the United Nations as World Communications Year with the aim to improve communication and infrastructure. It seems that we as the top structure in the Department of Posts and Telecommunications are, as we do not often do in other cases, following the request of the United Nations. We are trying to get our infrastructure and communication up to standard. I think it is important to tell the House that in South Africa we have 3,5 million telephones and if you divide that into our population we have about one telephone for every seven people in this country. In the French-speaking countries of Africa, for instance, where they have a population of 50 million people they have 110 000 telephones which means one telephone for every 475 people. The United Nations feel that the part of Africa north of us should try to work in the direction of giving one telephone to every 200 people of the population in the next number of years. Well, seeing what problems we have with financing the type of schemes we are busy with, I wish them luck. I think to double the number of telephones will take them quite a long time, but I wish them luck, because the better we can communicate with one another, the better for them and the better for us.

*We are engaged in breathtaking development in the technological sphere. It is almost unbelievable. The other day the hon. member for Boksburg showed you this glass crystal that we in South Africa make of synthetic quartz and steel. We use it in our own factory, a factory in which we have shares, together with the IDC and other groups. We are using this type of quartz to make a microchip which you can see on the back of this little tin. It is cut, and each of the small squares on the back of this tin is processed into tiny computers similar to the one you can see on the front. This little object I am showing you is in fact a small computer. It replaces boxes full of equipment, about as big as my desk, which came from the old type of exchanges. Now we have this small, integrated circuit which is burnt into this tiny microchip. This technology is breathtaking. One would not believe it if one had not seen it. I think I must stop explaining at this point, because they tell me that this microchip is going to get smaller and smaller, and far more tasks will be burnt into them.

What does it cost?

I cannot tell you now; that depends on which circuits are burnt into them and on the purpose for which they are used. This is of course part of the whole electronic revolution. There are no longer moving parts in the new electronic exchange. Only transistors and various other small components that are made here, and electronic computers, are used. Tremendous development is taking place.

I should like to congratulate the hon. member for Kempton Park. He said yesterday that he wanted to congratulate the Post Office on the progress made. He also gave a description of the coin-operated telephone, one of our very newest designs. At the end of his speech he raised an important point when he said that Posts and Telecommunications should be at the forefront and should never stagnate. I want to thank him for his support. We can only remain in the forefront and avert stagnation by seeing to it that we spend our money in the right way. However, we shall have to ask the consumer from time to time—the consumer and not the taxpayer—to help us. We cannot revert to the system in vogue in former years in terms of which a subsidy was paid to the Post Office. We must ensure that we handle our finances in such a way that we obtain funds for capital and operating expenditure in two ways, viz. from tariffs—in other words, our turnover—and secondly, from loans. We are aiming for a basis of 50:50. I want to thank the hon. member for the way in which he stated his case.

At the end of his speech the hon. member also did a very commendable thing. Sometimes it is the little things one says in a speech that are of great value. It is not always the big thing one says that is valuable; moreover, sometimes one gets into trouble about that. I am referring to what the hon. member said about the Post Office exchange staff at Parliament. He thanked them for the service they render Parliament. This thought will be conveyed to the exchange staff and I think they will be very grateful to the hon. member in that regard. I am perhaps fortunate in the sense that I have an office across the road from which I can dial direct, but I am aware of the problems hon. members encounter in having calls put through from this building. However, the exchange staff always provide friendly service. I want to thank the hon. member for having thought of them at this time.

I have already referred to the microchip revolution. In addition, a great deal has already been said about optical fibre. I have with me a sample of optical fibre which I obtained when I opened a factory recently. I want to say to the hon. member for Bezuidenhout that the orange part that can be seen is the outer covering. There are a few small cables inside. If the small battery is switched on, the hon. member can see a tiny light go on in the cable, if his eyes are good enough. There are several tiny cables within the one cable. They are no thicker than a human hair and each can handle 2 000 conversations simultaneously. The conversations are conducted by means of light waves. The optical fibre replaces the old copper cable and is already being used overseas. Moreover, we have already installed it on the Witwatersrand. Our technical people are already working with it. Moreover, it is already being used overseas as an undersea cable. Of course, the undersea cable is something that we shall have to decide about one of these days. However, we are first watching developments to see how it works in those countries where it has already been installed. It works by means of light and is not susceptible to electrical disturbances. One can use it on an electricity pole—lightning can even strike it—and nothing will happen. The old copper transmission cable we have been using all these years is now gradually on its way out. The optical fibre is also light. Two men can carry two to three km of optical fibre on a roll, whereas the same length of copper wire would weigh five to six tons. Therefore optical fibre is easy to transport as well.

The hon. member for Springs and the hon. member for Boksburg discussed satellites yesterday. The hon. member for Boksburg referred to our tour and to the bowls at our Intelsat station, our satellite station near Pretoria. Those telephones are linked directly to the satellite stations of other countries. One can imagine that if transmissions from one country to the other must take place, we must be able to speak to one another. I had the experience of putting a call through from one telephone to another telephone about two yards away. What happened was that the call was transmitted to a satellite 36 000 km high and then retransmitted down to the other telephone two yards away from me. I had the startling experience of being able to hold both handsets at the same time and say “Hullo” to myself over a distance of 72 000 km. I mention this not simply as an anecdote, but also in order to demonstrate to hon. members what can happen.

The hon. member referred to the development that went hand in hand with all this tremendous progress. However, he also raised a very important matter, viz. that of the local manufacturer in his own constituency. In Boksburg there is a firm—there are also other firms in the country—that is already manufacturing locally on a large scale. Today I wish to emphasize the role of Posts and Telecommunications in the electronic industry as a whole. However, I want to go even further and say that if it had not been for sound decisions taken by my predecessors and the predecessors of the Postmaster-General—I leave myself and the present Postmaster-General out of this because I have not yet taken any of those decisions— what would have happened, because at the time decisions were taken to enter into long-term contracts with certain suppliers, and in this way we are building up an electronic industry in South Africa which is in fact going to determine the future of the country’s economy? The other day I quoted a statement to the effect that our electronics and communications systems were among the things that would determine the future of our economy.

The hon. member for Springs—I am sorry he is not in this House at present—made an interesting speech, a fine speech about satellites, and reference was made here to domestic satellites, viz. those that are placed in orbit by a specific country for its own purposes. I was privileged to visit one of these factories in Germany where these satellites are made. Several of them are already in orbit. In fact, one has to book a parking place up there.

The satellite orbits in its “parking place” in conjunction with the earth, and one is assured of communication at all times. There are problems, of course. It is said that there is insufficient security with regard to messages transmitted. For example, the transmissions can be tapped. However, it has been said that it is only a question of time before this, too, is eliminated. German engineers have told me that if we have any problems we need only tell them about them, because there is no problem that electronics cannot solve.

Domestic problems, too?

Perhaps that is a good suggestion for the Opposition parties. Perhaps those hon. members should call in some of these engineers to solve their problems.

What about your guidelines, Lapa?

The hon. member said that we should investigate this in depth to see whether it would not be a paying proposition for us to introduce it. It is no longer a secret, because mention has already been made of this in the newspapers. A committee has been appointed under the chairmanship of the Deputy Postmaster-General. The committee consists of several experts who will consider the whole question of domestic satellites. In the meantime we are hiring time on Intelsat, which is already being used for overseas communications and television. Some hon. members probably rose early when we played rugby against New Zealand. However, how many hon. members know that that image they saw there did not simply appear on the screen? The image was conveyed through Intelsat to the Hartebeeshoek station. From there it was passed through the ordinary telephone network to the SABC and from there was broadcast to our television screens. That is a tremendous achievement for a country like ours. While the people play over there, we watch the match here. The switch to using a domestic satellite is not something that I envisage for next year or the year after. There will first have to be planning. We shall probably have to consider it over a long period. The exposition of this matter here by the hon. member for Springs indicates that he is an authority in this regard. I say this because earlier there was some discussion as to his expertise or lack of it. In fact, the hon. member’s research and his speech here yesterday amazed the House, and I say this because one cannot expect all the hon. members to make an in depth study of these matters. I am very grateful to the hon. member. He can rest assured that we shall most certainly carry out a very comprehensive investigation of this whole situation to ensure that no problems crop up.

We have just been discussing the breathtaking developments, but there is other development which follows its normal course. The hon. member for Rosettenville made a plea for the post office in Rosettenville. That, of course, is the other part we have to contribute. We must see to it that the development of our posts keeps pace with this breathtaking development. Of course, it is not solely a matter of mail sorters. It also has to do with buildings, proper facilities for our staff, serving the public and the large quantities of work that have to be done at every post office. We are aware of the fact that in the hon. member’s constituency there is a post office that is accommodated in a rented building which is totally inadequate. The building has shortcomings. We have been looking for premises for several years. Moreover, the hon. member and his MPC have been consulted and informed with regard to this matter. We now have an option on premises situated approximately 0,5 kilometres from the other one. The premises have been identified and we are now considering the possibilities. The hon. member has given his support to the post office being shifted to these premises if we should succeed in obtaining the premises. I can tell the hon. member that I should very much like to open the post office. However, as the hon. member will know, we must first obtain the premises and enter into negotiations. After we have obtained it, steps must also be taken to ensure that the post office will be built there without any avoidable delay. My promise to him, then, is only that when we obtain the premises, that post office is in the pipeline and he will be able to tell that to the people of Rosettenville. Perhaps we should call it the “Sporie van Rensburg” post office. Although “Sporie” van Rensburg is really more concerned with the Railways, this is perhaps a good opportunity to link his name to posts and telecommunications as well.

Then, too, the hon. member advertised the Post Office savings bankbook. I am very grateful to him for the way in which he did this. Perhaps we should also just advertise our Telebank. I myself am already a member of the Telebank. Here is my Telebank card. [Interjections.] We hope to make an automatic Telebank teller available even in this vicinity, perhaps in the Verwoerd Building. Perhaps then one can ask the hon. members, if they want to draw money with ease, to open an account with the Telebank. I do not know whether it is etiquette to do so, because there are other banks, too. However, this bank belongs to us.

Can one get a small overdraft?

Well, we are not at that stage yet.

*Then hon. members will be able to draw money easily there and at night, when they want to go out, they can also come and draw money at the building. I should like our own staff to make more use of this, too.

The question of promoting the department was also raised the other day. I think it was the hon. member for Potgietersrus who raised it. What are we in fact doing to promote the Post Office? I want to say at once that the Department of Posts and Telecommunications enjoys exceptionally good support from all the news media. For its part, the department, too, maintains an open door policy towards the media. An effort is made to provide news and information as they need it, without delay and without beating about the bush. We have nothing to hide. In the past we have shown them our installations. We have also on occasion shown them how our new machines work.

Moreover, we even have a Press liaison division for which I have the greatest appreciation. It is manned by Mrs. Grobler and Mr. Rothman. They are probably doing for the Post Office some of the best work done for any State department in this respect. They are skilled people and have a great deal of experience. Accordingly, I personally experience very few problems in replying to any matters. Nor could this be otherwise, because more than any other body, Posts and Telecommunications affects the everyday life of virtually everyone. The department is constantly taking the initiative in keeping the media abreast at all times not only of new developments but also of problems and even bottle-necks. The department also does its best to provide the necessary infrastructure services. Therefore I must thank all media for their objective reporting concerning matters relating to the Department of Posts and Telecommunications.

For the information of hon. members, I can only say that in the year 1982-’83, literally hundreds of news reports on departmental affairs appeared in all the daily, Sunday, financial and technical journals. There was also wide news coverage of Post Office matters on the news services of the SABC on radio and television. I should also like to thank all the media for their wide coverage of the Annual Report of the Postmaster-General—in itself a fine piece of work. In fact, it covers the activities of the entire year. Some parts of the report are only a month or two old. Therefore this is not obsolete information. In fact, this is one of the most recent reports to come out, and it is extremely useful for the hon. members who wish to take part in the Post Office debate.

Apart from a comprehensive survey of 20 minutes on TV1, 2 and 3 in January this year relating to the department’s activities, there were also additional research reports in the programme “Uit en Tuis”. There was a programme on the first exchange in Port Elizabeth, and another one about the postal service to the operational area. On the English-language television programme there was a further in-depth discussion on departmental housing. The issue of the new definitive series of postage stamps in July last year was also given exceptionally good news coverage.

The department has launched several advertising campaigns in the media. During the past financial year, Post Office savings bank services have been marketed in all financial journals and on radio and television. Telebank, too, is being advertised at present, as I have just mentioned. Over the past year the advertising consisted of 50 television spots and 500 radio spots by way of general promotion. The department has to ensure that it puts across its advertising in a professional way at all times. The department also makes constant use not only of its liaison division, but also of professional advertising firms to assist the department. The Post Office took part on a large scale in the RSA 20 Exhibition in Durban, Cape Town, Port Elizabeth and Kimberley. This year, in the Government Pavilion at the Rand Show, the Post Office is presenting an exceptionally spectacular display devoted to communications technology. 100 000 bronchures have already been printed and will be distributed there. Next year’s promotion programme will be of a similar nature. The fact that there is a daily turnover of almost R30 million—that is an interesting figure—at post office counters and other service points, giving a turnover of R8 000 million in one year, gives some indication of the extent of the department’s personal contact with its clients. Apart from that, the staff of the Post Office visit between 3 000 and 5 000 premises every day to provide a wide variety of services. It is truly a privilege to act as Minister of such a department, because one has the opportunity of working with people who work with other people every day, and when errors occur— and errors certainly do occur now and again—then we should probably go and reread that little poem of Langenhoven’s that the hon. member for Schweizer-Reineke quoted here yesterday, grumble a little less and show a little more understanding for the problems that these people are saddled with.

†I now want to return to a few of the speeches that have been made. The hon. member for Hillbrow spoke about what hon. members should be allowed to do and what they should not be allowed to do. I have no problem with hon. members criticizing the Post Office, myself or the Postmaster-General, but I do find it a bit difficult to accept that if I have fully answered questions that have appeared on the Order Paper the same question should be put to me again in this debate. I cannot reply to it again. It would be depriving an hon. member from the Post Office study groups of the opportunity of making a contribution to the debate. We do need infrastructure. The hon. member said that there should be tariff decreases, but also that there should be more telephones. He asked that the shortage of telephones should be given priority. But this is part of the whole planning. The infrastructure must be developed. We can instal 210 000 telephones in a fortnight, but nobody will be able to talk to anybody else. That does not make sense. The whole infrastructure must be there. That is why we need the extra money.

The hon. member also spoke about problems with one of our associations. I would rather leave this matter to the department so that they can deal with it in greater detail directly with the hon. member. It would be dangerous for me to take sides, but I must tell the hon. member that I do not envisage appointing any committee of inquiry into the working of the association’s executive. I find that a little bit on the dangerous side, and I think it is dangerous talk.

The complaints of the association must be investigated.

I think one should let the association and the department try to sort this out and then we shall be in contact with the hon. member.

*I have already replied to the speech of the hon. member for Boksburg. He made a very positive speech which in my opinion was a true Third Reading speech. I congratulate him on it. I have already dealt with some of the matters to which he referred.

I thank the hon. member for Nigel for his contribution. He said that we should plan in accordance with a blueprint. We are doing our best as far as that is concerned. As regards the planning and development of towns and telephone systems, I just wish to point out that we have a division that is concerned with this. This division has existed for many years and in recent times has been expanded tremendously. In fact, one could call it a marketing division. It is not, of course, the task of that division to put telephones up for auction. The division is there to keep abreast of development, and accordingly close contact is maintained with town clerks and Government departments. We therefore hope that in this way we shall be able to make better advance estimates.

Sometimes, however, unique problems crop up. Certain places suddenly begin to expand. An example of this, of course, is Springs. At one stage it was predicted that Springs would become a ghost town. Now, all of sudden, it is a big city. Nowadays the middle-sized towns in our country, too, are suddenly beginning to expand tremendously. These are matters which one cannot always predict in advance. However, we shall most definitely continue to give attention to this matter.

We are, of course, already making use of solar energy, and this is something for which we are grateful. At the same time we are concerned about the unemployment situation. Hon. members will recall that I said we would not discharge any employee for financial reasons. The Post Office will not do that. We shall retain our staff.

†The hon. member for Umhlanga joins issue with me because I said he did not know what the inflation rate was. I must point out that I misunderstood him. I apologize to the hon. member. I am really sorry about that. I did not, however, try to score political points. Unfortunately I find myself in a position now in which I have to run a business. It is therefore imperative that I should live in peace with all my clients. The hon. member for Umhlanga is of course also a big client of the Post Office.

Furthermore the hon. member for Umhlanga said our tariffs should be regulated by current economic conditions. I hope I understood him correctly. I think our tariffs are more controlled by demand than by any other factor. We have a massive demand, and therefore we have to employ various methods in order to establish our tariff rates.

The whole question of a stabilization fund is a very tricky one. I asked the hon. member for Hillbrow yesterday how we were to launch such a fund without the necessary money to get it going. We do not budget for a surplus amount. We take whatever surplus we have on our operational budget and employ that as capital with which we pay loans. That means that a stabilization fund is actually built into the whole system as it exists at the moment. The only difference is that the available money is employed in a direct manner instead of being channelled through a fund first. If we should build up a strong stabilization fund, for example by way of this year’s increased tariffs, and we should use that fund later, it actually amounts to people paying now in order to finance telephone services that are provided to new applicants somewhere in the future; perhaps 10 years from now. Such a system, I believe, has its pros and cons. Nevertheless, I shall keep a watching eye over it, and I also promise that I will have further discussions with my department about the whole affair.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

The most important objective of the new provisions for the determination of rates at which interest on outstanding debts shall be payable to the Post Office, to establish a housing loan fund for Post Office staff and also to empower the Post Office to issue certain series of National Savings Certificates in respect of which the interest rates may be altered during the terms of the certificates. The measure also affects several other adjustments to the Post Office Act, most of which are of a purely administrative nature.

As far as the determination of interest rates on outstanding debts to the Post Office—for which provision is made in clause 1—is concerned, I want to mention that the proposed provisions are similar to provisions in respect of outstanding debts to the State inserted into the Exchequer and Audit Act, 1975, in 1978 and 1979.

To date, interest rates which are specifically applicable to debts to the Post Office have not yet been determined. In cases of debts payable to the Post Office in terms of a sentence, in cases such as those arising from the negligent damaging of Post Office vehicles in accidents, the general interest rate prescribed by the Minister of Justice in terms of the provisions of the Exchequer and Audit Act.

There is uncertainty as to whether the provisions of the Exchequer and Audit Act relating to the determination of interest rates on debts to the State could be applied in respect of debts to the Post Office as well. The proposed statutory amendments will place the matter beyond doubt and will have the effect that the interest rates on debts the payments on which are due to the State Revenue Fund will be determined in terms of the Exchequer and Audit Act, whilst the interest rates on debts in respect of which the payments are due to the Post Office Fund will be determined in terms of the Post Office Act.

The Housing Loan Fund I referred to, for which provision is being made in clause 2, relates to a housing scheme established by the Post Office in November 1980 for the granting of housing loans to its officials on certain conditions. The scheme was established by the Staff Management Board of the Post Office, with the approval of the Minister in terms of powers granted in the Post Office Service Act, 1974. Full departmental directives with regard to the scheme were taken into use and agreements safeguarding the interests of the department have been entered into with the officials concerned in respect of all loans granted.

Until now the loans granted have been paid directly out of the Post Office Fund. However, the repayment by the officials of redemption and interest on the loans has been kept in a provisional account pending this amendment to the Act. The administration of and bookkeeping in respect of this scheme and the provision of funds for this purpose will be facilitated by the statutory establishment of a fund for the housing loans, and the utilization of the funds will be placed on a firmer foundation.

The proposed provision provides for the payment into the Housing Loan Fund of amounts appropriated for the scheme, as well as all payments in respect of redemption and interest by officials concerned. Provision is also being made for the transfer to the next financial year of any unspent balance in the fund at the end of the financial year. In due course, as redemption and interest payments by the officials increase, the funds available for new loans will increase and it will be possible to grant more loans without a corresponding increase in the appropriations for the scheme.

†The third objective of the Bill to which I have specially referred concerns the provision being made in clause 7 for the issue of series of National Savings Certificates of which the interest rates may be changed during the terms of the certificates issued. This arrangement will provide flexibility that will be particularly useful in times of rapidly changing interest rates. At present there is no alternative to terminating a current series of certificates and issuing a new series whenever it is desired to alter the interest being paid to suit market conditions. It is not only undesirable but also impractical to issue fresh series of certificates in rapid succession.

I should like to emphasize that the enabling provision now being made to permit the issue of series of certificates of which the interest rates may vary, will not prevent the department from issuing series, as in the past, of which the interest rates cannot be changed during the terms of the certificates. Also, series of certificates already issued will in no way be affected. The conditions of each series of certificates must be laid down in the special regulations governing the issue of that particular series, and only in the case of any particular series in respect of which the relevant special regulations make it a condition of issue that the interest rate may be varied, will it be possible to change the interest rate during the term of the certificates.

The remaining provisions of this Bill are, as I have said, in the main of a purely administrative nature. With regard to the proposal that the existing specific obligations on the department in section 12H of the Act to transmit statements relating to the Post Office Savings Bank and National Savings Certificates to the Auditor-General be deleted, I wish to place on record that it is not the intention to cease publishing balance sheets and revenue and expenditure accounts in respect of the Post Office Savings Bank. Apart from being published in the annual report of the Auditor-General on Post Office accounts, these statements on the Savings Bank have for years been published in the Postmaster-General’s annual report, which must by law also be submitted to Parliament, and it is proposed to continue doing so in the future.

Discussion of the other administrative proposals in this Bill would perhaps be more appropriate to the Committee Stage. I do not think it necessary, therefore, to enlarge on the details of those proposals now.

Mr. Speaker, the official Opposition will support the Bill before the House. This is an important piece of legislation in that it touches on various aspects of the Post Office Act. It tidies up the Act generally and in particular in respect of certain technicalities. The hon. the Minister said that he did not want to go into too much detail at this stage. I do not intend going into too much detail either. I merely want to touch upon some of the more important aspects. If I understand the feeling of the House correctly, there is not going to be a Committee Stage and if I do touch upon some of the details the hon. the Minister will of course have the opportunity to reply.

The first amendment which the Bill will bring about concerns tariff increases and powers which can be delegated. This is obviously a provision which we can support, because if there is a technicality with regard to the signature of a Postmaster-General who is not the Postmaster-General whose name appears in the Government Gazette we are obviously leaving ourselves open to litigation. There could then be legal action which would be very, very embarrassing to the Post Office since the tariffs could then be set aside in terms of a court order. Since we obviously do not want to have that, we are gladly supporting this amendment.

In so far as rates of interest are concerned, up to now the Post Office had to rely on the provisions of section 26(6) of the Exchequer and Audit Act. I think the amendment which seeks to place this power in the hands of the Post Office constitutes an improvement and for that reason we are in favour of the amendment.

The most important provisions of the Bill are possibly those dealing with the Housing Loan Fund which has been established. Of course we are in favor of the principle that there ought to be a housing fund. That principle is not being changed in terms of the Bill, but what we are doing here is really to establish a separate fund to tidy up the interest and redemption on loans to Post Office employees. Until now the proceeds of such interest and redemption have gone into the General Revenue Fund where they became part and parcel of the general revenue of the Post Office. The effect of the amendment will be—I think the hon. the Minister touched upon it—that the Housing Fund will develop like a type of building society within the Post Office. The funds in the Housing Fund will grow and will only be used for the purpose of granting loans to officials for the building of homes. I think this is something good because as interest will be earned and capital repaid, the fund will be able to keep up all the time. In addition Parliament will from time to time also vote money for the Fund until this Fund is strong enough to keep going. I think the rate of interest is very low. I am not quite sure what the rate is and perhaps the hon. the Minister will enlighten us. I think it is about 4% at the moment—a very low rate.

I think the Post Office personnel are very, very fortunate to have this facility. I really hope that they appreciate it because R30 million to begin with is a substantial amount, particularly if one bears in mind that for Black housing in South Africa R100 million is set aside.

The granting of these loans will help the staff to obtain their own homes. I notice that there is a change of direction in what was either policy or ministerial attitudes towards certain aspects of housing aid provided by the Post Office. I welcome the change which the hon. the Minister has brought about. I hope, too, that the hon. the Minister would rather pursue this line of lending money to our employees than acquire blocks of flats which are occupied by tenants who have to be ejected in a period in our country when there is very little accommodation available. Many of such tenants are desperate when they are ejected.

We shall of course have to be careful in regard to these housing loans because such a loan will obviously be a fringe benefit, especially in the light of the low interest rate. We shall have to be very careful as to how this is going to affect the officials in the light of the tax on fringe benefits. Nevertheless these loans will make a career in the Post Office very attractive. Officials of the Post Office will henceforth enjoy a distinct advantage over the ordinary member of the public who has to go to a building society to get backup finance and who has to pay very high rates of interest. I hope that this will improve the position as regards employees.

As regards the question of agents being appointed, I think it is something good. I think this is necessary when it comes to debentures because then there will be no need for the Minister to run around to do the work. Other people can do the work and the agencies can make the necessary arrangements. As far as the Savings Bank is concerned, hon. members will know that the limitation is R25 000. Some people may be lucky enough to have that amount! If the interest accumulates above the R25 000, we would be limited to that amount; therefore, what we are doing here is to ensure that, if it does exceed that limit of R25 000 by reason of the interest exceeding the capital, it will not contravene the legislation.

With regard to the rate of interest, which may be changed from time to time as far as National Savings Certificates are concerned, we now have a different situation. In the case of Treasury Bonds, the Treasury has its own legislation which determines that if the rate of interest drops lower than the interest rate that was applicable when the subscriber actually took the money and he therefore has to suffer a loss in interest, he then has a right to withdraw his money as at the date when the announcement was made. The hon. the Minister is asking us here to approve that the same formula will apply with regard to National Savings Certificates and that the person taking out the certificate will have the option to reduce the interest. On the one hand it is a good thing for the economy to have interest reduced, but on the other hand it may not be a good thing for the investor. If the interest gets too low, the amount invested in National Savings Certificates will drop and you will not get as much from it as you want. It is a kind of difficult situation.

Nevertheless, because of the technicalities involved and the improvement being brought about, we are happy to support this Bill.

Mr. Speaker, I am merely rising to express support for this legislation on behalf of this side of the House and also to express our thanks to the spokesman of the official Opposition for their support for this measure.

As the hon. member for Hillbrow said, this legislation is largely a technical administrative measure, but it is not, for that reason less important, since it will make an important contribution to the effectiveness of the Post Office Administration. It is important in the first place because it places the validity of Post Office regulations and also the matter of fees owed to the Post Office beyond all doubt. It also makes the Post Office more flexible when there are fluctuations in interest rates as far as its savings bank regulations are concerned.

In the second place this legislation gives statutory recognition to the funding of housing for Post Office officials. I do not want to elaborate on this any further because it was welcomed in the recent budget debate by various speakers from all sides of this House.

I think a final point which may be important is that this legislation also makes an important contribution with regard to the saving of manpower as far as the regular calculation of interest on small Post Office savings accounts is concerned. A matter which became clear during the budget debate was that the escalation in the costs of labour intensive services is one of the things the Post Office Administration must constantly guard against. This is one specific contribution that can be made to make such labour intensive services cheaper and more economical for the Post Office Administration.

It gives me pleasure to support this Bill.

Mr. Speaker, the CP also supports this Bill. We have no difficulties with it. As the hon. the Minister indicated, it is of an administrative and technical nature, but since it is possible that the Bill may not be committed, I think it is desirable for me to refer to a few aspects.

We are grateful for the fact that certain matters that up to this stage had created confusion and were unclear, for example, that the determining of the tariff is the legal action and not the publication in the Gazette, have been cleared up. Interest rates are also charged in respect of various kinds of debts owed to the Post Office, and this is also to be welcomed. As regards the introduction of certainty and orderliness by means of the third objective of this Bill, viz. the housing loan scheme—the hon. member for Hillbrow also referred to this—this has been in existence since November 1980 already. I do not think this is the right time to discuss the benefits of this scheme or to welcome it specifically at this stage. It has in fact been in operation since November 1980. It is actually unthinkable that a housing fund was not established at that stage and that all this money has been paid into a suspense account. It is therefore to be welcomed that this is now being done in an orderly way.

The hon. member for Umlazi referred to the fact that manpower is being saved because an account which is not operated for a year then remains dormant and the interest is only calculated from the moment when that account begins to show some life again. I just feel that it could prejudice a person if that interest is calculated as simple interest and he does not earn interest on his interest. In other words, that person should actually earn compound interest.

The next matter I want to refer to is the matter of different interest rates which can be paid on investments at the Post Office, in other words the rights the hon. the Minister or the Postmaster-General are now being granted to change interest rates. I am aware that it has been said that the regulations should make provision, on the one hand, for the times when interests rates are not lowered and on the other hand, for the times when interest rates are increased. That is what I gathered from the hon. the Minister’s Second Reading speech. However, I wanted to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to the fact that one of the aspects that made Post Office loans and savings certificates so attractive was the fact that an investor was certain that for a period of two, three or four years, or however long he invested his money at the Post Office, there would be no tampering with his interest rate, as was the case with private investment institutions. Particularly as far as the tax free amount is concerned, I think it is desirable for the interest rate to be fixed for a specific period so that the investor knows where he stands.

I also welcome the fact that the Post Office has through its investment consultants done more to bring these tax free investment facilities to the attention of the public. Investment consultants sent out a circular, apparently to clients, in which attention was drawn to the fact that in the past the Post Office had actually maintained a low profile as far as canvassing for savings investments was concerned. I note that steps will even be taken to publicize investment facilities, including visits to investors. Services are even available on Saturdays to those persons who do not have time for personal matters during the week. This is to be welcomed. If there is one field of investment which is to a large extent unknown to the general public, it is the various types of investments one can make in the Post Office. There is uncertainty about savings bank certificates and to what extent they are tax free, as well as national savings certificates. The maximum amounts differ, compared with savings bank certificates. This terminology is incomprehensible to the ordinary man in the street. There is a savings bank certificate as against a national saving certificate, post office savings bank account, indefinite period treasury bonds and indefinite period national defence bonds. It is to be welcomed that there are now public relations people to make these matters clearer to the public.

As hon. members have already said, the remainder of the Bill is of a highly technical and administrative nature.

The CP supports this legislation.

Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member for Hillbrow has dealt pretty well with each clause of this Bill. We, too, will be supporting it. I think that the arguments he has put forward are arguments with which we can agree.

The one matter that I do want to concern myself with involves clause 2 which deals with the provision of housing generally and the new Housing Loan Fund. I think the hon. member for South Coast yesterday put a very good case during the Committee Stage of the Appropriation Bill. We are very concerned about this aspect and would like to see that whenever any department—be it the Department of Posts and Telecommunications, the Department of Transport Services or whatever—goes in for a housing scheme, employees wanting to buy new houses should be given preference in the allocation of these funds. I say this because we believe that the establishment of new housing stock is of vital concern and interest to the country generally. We want to encourage the construction of as much new housing as we possibly can. I am not suggesting that it can always be done. Naturally, when one gets to the smaller villages and towns across the country, one cannot expect the Post Office officials or employees applying for a loan to necessarily build a new home, because obviously a small village cannot always accommodate extra housing. It has a certain housing stock which is adquate for the requirements of the relevant village. In our urban areas, in our cities, in our newer developing areas, however, I believe that we must encourage our Post Office employees to look for new housing, to build new houses, particularly in the areas where we are developing and expanding Post Office operations. I can think of many growing areas in my constituency, and I am sure that every hon. member in this House can also think of similar areas in his constituency.

Whilst on that topic, let me make a further request. Once a loan is granted to an official, we ask that that official should have a stake in that house. He must have a stake in the property.

[Inaudible.]

That is the sort of silly little puerile, senseless, infantile remark that one expects from the hon. member for Bryanston. He is hoping that a certain gentleman is in the gallery to report on his little puerile, idiotic arguments and interjections. He wants to know what “steak.” He has no consideration for what we are talking about. [Interjections.] We are talking about housing, but that infantile mind jerks into action. [Interjections.]

We should like to feel that the people who buy those homes involve themselves in what they are doing, so that what they are doing is not just a formality, not a question of just buying a house, and then it is all over and done with, without the person really feeling the responsibility he should feel in the ownership of a piece of real-estate. I say again that he must have a stake in the house, and let me spell it “s-t-a-k-e”, for the edification of certain individuals in this House.

We want to know too whether this Fund will be funding the entire unit, or is the money going to be used to guarantee a percentage if the unit is funded by a building society or by another institution? Is this fund going to be working in conjunction with building societies and other institutions? We would be interested to know this. As I understand the situation, it can sometimes happen that a loan is granted and a percentage is put up by a fund such as this which is then put into an institution and is not recoverable from that institution until such time as the bond is completely repaid. This tends to tie money up and we would not like to see this happen, because we believe that, as the saying goes, money is made round so let us keep it going round.

We are also very pleased to note the amendments concerning the interest on National Savings Certificates.

*When I was a little boy I would ask my Dad for four shillings and a penny every Thursday morning. He would refuse and then, as Jochem van Bruggen said in his story Ampie die Natuurkind, I searched for the odd mislaid “tickey” or sixpence. We went to school with that sixpence or “tickey” and the teacher stamped our card, and after a few weeks or a few months, we were given the old Union Loan certificate for 16 shillings and a tickey. After five years it was worth £1.

†We learnt as children that savings was post office and post office was savings. I should like to see that come back and I hope that this amendment will encourage the schools once again to promote at school level the sale of today’s replacement for the old Union Loan Certificate, namely the National Savings Certificate. It serves a tremendous purpose in that it teaches young people what saving is all about. Perhaps it may be argued that the interest rate is not as high as it could be, but now we have a way of adjusting that rate so that it will be made that much more attractive. We have pleasure in supporting this Bill and will support it through all its stages. We wish the Post Office well with it.

Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House are supporting the Bill in all its stages, as the hon. member for Hill-brow said. I should just like to draw attention to certain factors in the Bill. They are of a financial nature. During the Third Reading debate on the Post Office budget, I mentioned that there is an imposition on the Post Office in respect of the 5% of total funds in South Africa. I think the time has arrived for the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications and the hon. the Minister of Finance to get together to ensure that this imposition will no longer apply and that the Post Office Savings Bank will be allowed to compete, as it is a business and has to provide South Africa with this very great service.

The second point I should like to deal with concerns the Housing Loan Fund, of which I am very much in favour. I should like to draw the attention of the House to the speech made by the hon. member for East London City during the Second Reading debate on the Post Office budget. In that speech he said that 3,5 million homes would have to be provided for the total population in South Africa. The hon. the Minister of Community Development is therefore going to have a problem. I hope that there will be co-ordination between the State, private enterprise and everybody interested in this problem. I hope there will be co-ordination between the various bodies in order to make absolutely certain that State bodies do not deprive the private individual and particularly the less privileged of getting what they require.

I am also worried about how the taxation of fringe benefits will affect the whole question of housing for postal employees. I hope that the hon. the Minister will go into that.

In conclusion, as this is a financial matter, I want to deal with the question of some form of consultancy in regard to the whole question of financing postal and telecommunication services. I did deal with it in the budget, but I do believe that the Franzsen Committee report is out of date. As I said in that speech, the Franzsen Committee report did not only refer to the question of the 50:50; it dealt with a whole range of subjects. Therefore I think that the time has now come, 12 years later for a reconsideration. I make this plea because if one refers back to Hansard, I think it was some time in the 1030s that the S.A. Railways for instance found themselves in the same position in which the Department of Posts and Telecommunications find themselves now. A particular highly qualified consultant came from overseas to head an internal commission of the S.A. Railways. As a result of his recommendations a whole new aspect of financing the Railways was changed at the time. If one reads this report, the one important point that he made was that the S.A. Railways was one of the few railway systems in the world that was actually at that time, during the depression, operating at a profit. The same can be said for the Department of Posts and Telecommunications. It is operating at a profit in this time of recession. However, the whole question of financing has become so complicated and intricate, and will become even more so in the future, that I believe that the officials would welcome the opportunity of even getting some overseas consultants in to help them investigate the whole matter and to clarify their thinking. I do not say that what they are doing now is wrong. I only say that it is necessary to consider the whole manner in which financing is done and let them have the opportunity of having overseas consultants to assist them, for example people from the U.S.A. or Europe who have already dealt with this type of problem. It does not mean that it is a motion of no confidence in the officials. All of us who are in business and who may think that we are really running our business properly, from time to time still call in outside people on a consultancy basis. Particularly if one’s business is going well it is even more important to bring in consultants because they help to make the extra profits which you would not otherwise make. That is why I say it is when the business is running well that one really needs consultants to make it run even better.

Mr. Speaker, I just want to reply briefly to one or two of the matters raised here. I sincerely thank the hon. member for Hillbrow, the hon. member for Umlazi and the hon. member for Brakpan for their support of this Bill. I think hon. members put it very clearly that this is a technical administrative amendment which is in fact intended to enable us to arrange and regulate our affairs better.

†Perhaps I should first of all reply briefly to the hon. member for Hillbrow. He raised the question as to who gets these housing loans. Those officials and employees who belong to the Pension Fund are all eligible to receive a housing loan, That means all our population groups. It does not just apply to the Whites, but to everybody who has those qualifications. There is only one matter that has to be gone into and that is to make sure that they are not too old when they apply for a housing loan. Certain rules are laid down regarding age.

The hon. member also raised a question with regard to interest. Up to the first R20 000 the interest is 1%, 2% or 3%, according to the length of time the official has served. On that portion of the loan that exceeds R20 000 the interest is between 0,5% and 2% lower than the rate charged by the building societies, depending again on what the official earns.

Furthermore, loans are limited in that officials are not allowed to obtain loans on which their repayment will exceed 30% of their monthly salary. Formerly, I think, it used to be 25%. This has been changed now, and it is fixed at 30%. I think these were the two main questions asked by the hon. member for Umhlanga. I also thank him for his support of this Bill.

*The hon. member for Umlazi, too, expressed his support of the legislation before us. I thank him for doing so. He made the very interesting statement with regard to the systematic increase in costs, and also said some interesting things about the labour-intensive service provided by the Post Office. Then he also touched upon the important aspect of housing. I believe that effective housing is imperative in promoting the rendering of good service by employees. I want to emphasize this point because I regard it as being of great importance.

The hon. member for Brakpan, too, expressed his support of this measure. I can reassure him with regard to his question about the period after which interest would again be calculated. However, the interest is calculated on an annual basis. Consequently the holder of a bond loses nothing.

Interest on interest, then?

Yes, it is actually interest on interest. Even if the man was negligent and failed to make repayments, in the long run he enjoys the full benefit. The hon. member also referred to the certificate in terms of which the interest rate may be adjusted upward or downward. All that this amendment really does, therefore, is to introduce greater flexibility. For example, if we should decide to change the interest rate during the course of a term, the holder of the certificate retains the right to convert that certificate into cash. I do, however, believe that the new provision will not prevent the Post Office from continuing to issue National Savings Certificates which, like the current series, carry interest rates which cannot be changed during the currency of the certificate. In fact this is a new issue. The buyer of such a certificate may as well take the chance, in any event. Perhaps the interest rate is increased during the term of his certificate. However, if he wants to buy the certificate of which the interest rate has been fixed, he may still do so. It is actually just a new kind of certificate we are now introducing, a certificate of which we may adjust the interest rate upward or downward. However, in the normal course of events it happens very seldom that interest rates are adjusted downward. For this reason I believe that this new system is being introduced solely to enable holders of certificates to earn higher amounts by way of interest from time to time, whenever this may happen.

†In reply to what the hon. member for Umhlanga referred to, I just want to point out to him that in the case of the Post Office ownership of the property is transferred in the normal way. When the purchaser obtains, a loan he has of course a stake in the house he buys. I think the hon. member actually meant we should not allow the granting of a 100% loan. In my budget speech, I believe, I explained that homes would only be provided if a fixed part of the purchase price was provided by another financial institution. If the purchaser obtains that share of the purchase price from another institution we will make up the rest by way of a loan. That means that the new owner actually has a stake already in his new house although part of the financing he needs is provided by the Post Office. On the point of the 100% loan I am not quite sure of the exact details. I will, however, furnish that to the hon. member at a later stage. When the purchaser of a house, however, obtains, for example, an 80% loan from a building society or any other financial institution, we make up the rest of the purchase price; that is 20%. We supply that 20% of the purchase price by way of a loan to the purchaser.

Against some equity that they have in the Post Office by way of pension, etc.?

Yes, that is correct. I also think the hon. member made an interesting point when he said people should not be given everything on a silver plate. I agree with the hon. member. People should be given the opportunity of also contributing their own share. The hon. member also said that people wanting to build new houses should be given preference. That, I believe, is quite a difficult problem. I do not think we should become involved in the housing market. A thing like that might just have an adverse effect on the housing market. I do think, however, that it is something we could think of again in future. I shall therefore discuss this matter with the Post Office officials and listen to what they have to say.

Then I also want to make one further point. One of the hon. members said we should not buy flats. We try to keep this kind of purchase to a minimum but it does happen from time to time that we are offered a flat building. We have never evicted anybody. They stay there until they move out themselves and then we put in our own people. Therefore, we also try not to inconvenience people. We have bought one or two of what one may call bargains—I always say that we may go bankrupt buying bargains—but these have been bargains because the owners have approached us to buy. In such cases, instead of declining the offer and allowing somebody else to make the purchase, we have actually bought it.

The hon. member also said that he hoped that schools would propagate the old certificate. I still have a small book with my certificates in it, although I shall have to look for it. However, with all the interest that has now been generated in this connection, I may be able to get quite a tidy sum back on those certificates.

The hon. member for Bezuidenhout also said that the PFP would support the Bill. He talked about the fringe benefits tax. I can tell him nothing about that now because no final decision have as yet been reached in that regard. However, I shall keep an eye on the way in which a possible tax of this nature may affect the Post Office employees. I must say though that I did not like his story about the SATS. He said that the SATS were not running at a profit and so they called in a consultant after which they changed their policy completely. As somebody once said: “Kyk hoe lyk die SAVD nou!” [Interjections.] I think we must be very careful about calling in a consultant.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Bill not committed.

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr. Speaker, although it is more streamlined and sophisticated today, the modus operandi of the strategy for the advancement of culture has essentially remained unchanged since its inception in July 1948. Most important of all, however, is the fact that there has been no deviation, and that none is being proposed in the new legislation, from the basic principle on which the whole strategy is based, namely that the State itself does not promote culture and does not intend to do so under the provisions of the new legislation. The organs for the promotion of culture have been and remain the voluntary organizations in the local community. It is the voluntary organizations, the women’s associations, the Rapportryers, etc., which initiate the projects, which mobilize energies and talents and which motivate, activate and inspire the community. For projects and planning of this kind, the services of the local Regional Director for Culture Promotion are freely available.

Let us examine a specific example. An organizatfon may plan and arrange an exhibition of works of art by well-known artists, accompanied by talks or lectures by an artist or artists, because the organization believes that its community would benefit by such instruction.

Business suspended at 12h45 and resumed at 14h15.

Afternoon Sitting

Mr. Speaker, before business was suspended for lunch, I was explaining how a local voluntary organization can take the initiative in launching a project for the promotion of culture in its own community. I must point out, too, that when such an organization finds, while working on such a project, that there will be a lack of funds or that it will be too expensive to undertake such a project, it can always apply to the Department of National Education for financial aid in carrying out that project.

In this connection, I want to mention a very, very interesting case. In a small rural town, there was a society consisting of 13 young men and one lady. This society did not have a constitution and was not affiliated with any other body. Talk about being active—these people were as active as it is possible to be. Every week they held a meeting, every week they were planning something—they inspired those people to stage theatrical productions, for example, to arrange excursions, to hold exhibitions and so on. That community had a most stimulating cultural life as a result of the attitude and enterprise of this particular society. The society had the interesting name of “Die Dominee se Night Club”. That was what they called themselves. [Interjections.] When I think of the active role which that “Dominee se Night Club” played in the community in respect of the advancement of culture, it is my heart’s desire that there should be more “Dominee se Night Clubs” in our communities.

While I am on the subject, I should like to pay tribute and to convey my thanks on this occasion to voluntary organizations that have been doing splendid work over the years in their own communities in promoting culture in an admirable way. Having said this, however, I also wish to appeal to voluntary organizations to be truly living sources of inspiration in their own communities in promoting culture in those specific communities.

While I am talking about this, I also want to pay tribute on this occasion to the Department of National Education and its officials in general, and, in particular, to its regional directors, who perform a Herculean task, as I have already said on a previous occasion. I also want to express my thanks for what the Department of National Education is doing in providing so-called centres for cultural participation. In this way, for example, we have the Op’t Hof Centre in Bloemfontein. Throughout the country we have similar centres where excellent work can be done by way of lectures, courses and so on. I also want to express my thanks for the financial support given by the department with regard to these activities.

The regional councils that are to be appointed in terms of this legislation will have a wonderful opportunity to be of real service to South Africa and our people. I want to ask, though, whether we should not consider making statutory provision for such regional councils to have the power and opportunity to nominate subcommittees. Our own experience in the past has shown us, for example—this was still under the old dispensation of the local councils for national education—that when there is a local council for adult education for the Afrikaans-speaking people, for example, the English-speaking people find it difficult to join in. It is much more productive when we have local councils for each community. We must make statutory provision for our regional councils to appoint subcommittees for Afrikaans-speaking people, for example, as well as for English-speaking people, Portuguese, Greeks, Coloured people and Asians. Therefore we must give very serious consideration to making statutory provision for the regional councils to be able to appoint subcommittees.

[Inaudible.]

I wish the hon. member for Langlaagte would start talking about something which he knows something about and for which he has an affinity. [Interjections.]

I conclude by expressing my gratitude for the developments that are now taking place in respect of this great and important matter, i.e. the promotion of culture, particularly in respect of the establishment of regional councils.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Kimberley North has dealt very deeply with the historical survey of cultural organizations in South Africa as well as the mechanics of the past and the mechanics of this Bill in the future. I do not want to deal with that further at this stage. However, I should like to draw attention to a remark made by the hon. member for Koedoespoort, which I hope to be able to deal with later in my speech. He said (Unrevised Hansard, 15 March 1983)—

Further on he says—

The hon. member made a very good speech until such time as he started to talk politics. He then spoilt all the good things he had said.

As a result of speeches made in this House I did not want to deal with a definition of culture, but I think one should try to define what one is really trying to say so that the hon. the Minister can understand. The purpose of this Bill is to provide for the preservation, development, fostering and extension of culture in the Republic by planning, organizing, co-ordinating and providing facilities. Therefore I think it is necessary to define what I mean and understand by “culture”. I want to quote what Matthew Arnold, the well-known English poet said—

Elsewhere he said—

He is not a realist; he is a poet.

It is also said—

On the other hand, one shudders to think of the statement made by the arch Nazi Herman Goering when he said—

I have managed to find in Die Burger published in December 1931 an article written by Dr. F. C. L. Bosman under the heading “Afrikaanse kultuur en kultuurbesit”. In the article he explains exactly what is meant. I quote—

He goes on to say—

I quote further from Dr. Bosman—

In other words, the purpose of language is to provide a means for one to express oneself in literature. It is itself not a form of culture but, as Dr. Bosman said, only “’n kultuur-middel”.

*What do we mean by art? It embraces, inter alia, literature, poetry and prose, architecture, drama, painting, sculpture, music, dancing, etc. Die Nuwe Afrikaanse Woordeboek defines culture as—

Therefore every group, every people, has a culture. There is a Western culture, an Afrikaans culture or a primitive culture.

†The question is: Is culture solely the property of one particular group? I do not think so. When we deal with culture, we are dealing with the universality of culture.

*The universality of culture is what is important. For that reason I should like to tell the hon. member for Germiston District that there are, in fact, exclusively Afrikaans expressions of culture, but that many aspects of Afrikaans culture, for example, in the spheres of painting, sculpture, literature, etc., are universal and belong to everyone.

†When it comes to the remarks made by the hon. member for Virginia and the hon. member for Standerton, let me say that it is absolutely correct to infer that the culture of one people or one group is not the sole property of that particular group, but enriches the culture of all groups or peoples throughout the world and enables one culture to adopt the best out of any other culture [Interjections.]

I think the hon. the Minister will be able to understand what I mean by the cross-fertilization of cultures. I should like the hon. the Minister to read the speech he made at the retrospective exhibition of Eduardo Villa at the Rand Afrikaans University, an exhibition he opened some years ago. Eduardo Villa is an Italian. He was a prisoner of war who came to South Africa. He was captured in Abyssinia and came to South Africa as a prisoner of war. After hostilities ceased, he decided to stay in South Africa and is today, as the hon. the Minister will agree, one of our foremost sculptors. In the speech that the hon. the Minister made, he spoke about the universality of art and the way it crosses borders. He and I are both great admirers of this very, very fine artist. What is more, the hon. the Minister was able to present to Eduardo Villa, on that particular occasion, the highest honour which the Afrikaanse Akademie vir Kuns en Wetenskap can award to any South African, whatever his origins.

That brings me to the point that I mentioned a moment ago in regard to the hon. member for Koedoespoort when I ask: What contribution can traditional Black art make to South African culture? In his Second Reading speech the hon. the Minister said the following—

This is not only true with regard to the cultures that have been developed by the White groups in South Africa, merely because they have been dominant in the cultural life of South Africa. What is equally important is what the Black population groups can offer in what are called the traditional arts. At this stage I want to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to the fact that a study of the African cultures in South Africa is very important and should be expedited, for much of this heritage is in great danger of being lost forever. It is virtually being lost for ever while we sit and speak in this House. Anthropological research is what has, in the main been done with regard to research amongst the Black African cultures, but it is primarily on an anthropological level and very little attention is paid to the artistic elements within these cultures. Let us take African music as an example. What White South African has ever thought of the indigenous Black people as producers of music? Yet jazz is a direct result of Black traditional cultures which went to the USA. For years Tracey and one or two others at Roodepoort worked virtually alone in compiling the music and studying the instruments of Blacks throughout the whole of South Africa and parts of Africa.

Let us consider African sculpture. African sculpture is denied as ever existing in any traditional form. Whether we like it or not, we have unfortunately been taught to consider such objects as artefacts, curios or primitive fetishes. For the tourists we have the so-called curio shops which are full of unattractive and unartistic replicas which go under the name of African art.

What is the attitude of Black and White South Africans to traditional African art? Unfortunately such attitudes are inculcated into South Africans, whether they be White or Black, in the face of totally inadequate research. In this way South African Blacks have been denied virtually any cultural heritage in the spheres of art. I am talking about traditional art and not about what is called transitional art or the art of Blacks in the various townships and towns surrounding South Africa’s main urban areas.

Most preliminary research surveys which certain universities are beginning to initiate, show that the Black tribes of South Africa have an extremely rich and varied artistic tradition which is rapidly being destroyed by the depredations of the migratory labour system, resettlement and the inevitable urbanization that will take place before the end of the century. Research is what I am appealing for, and it is research by way of a rapid and detailed study of traditional African art—not the art which, as I said just now, falls under the influence of the dominant Western cultures of South Africa and which I called transitional art. That is a study on its own.

I trust that out of this Bill will come regulations preventing the wholesale exodus of valuable traditional Black art from South Africa. Unfortunately, as all this sculpture, beadwork, pottery and weaving is treated as a “ethnographica”, many fine examples of these have been taken out of South Africa by foreigners whose artistic and cultural training has enabled them to see the great artistic value of these irreplaceable pieces while we, the indigenous people of South Africa, through our lack of perspective, whether we be White or Black, unwittingly allow this to happen because we do not understand, or we do not want to understand, their artistic and priceless value. Witwatersrand University recently purchased an old sculpture of Transvaal-Tsonga origin at Sotheby’s in London and had to pay import duty on it as the final insult. In Brussels there is one of the finest collections of Central African art, which the Belgians took out of Africa when they ruled over the Belgian Congo. Today the best collections of South African traditional art are not be found in South Africa, but in museums in Europe and in the USA and in private collections. I want to warn of a danger we must avoid at all costs. Consider what happened to the Elgin Marbles of Greece. They are now to be found not where they should have been, namely on the Parthenon, but in the British Museum. Then, if one goes to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York today, one will see in a gallery there one of the greatest collections of African traditional art.

What is the role of the South African universities in promoting this art? African art is part of the history of art which has been neglected by practically every South African university until recently. Clause 2 of the Bill gives the Minister, in order to foster culture, the power to acquire, develop and maintain movable property and to award bursaries. I trust that the hon. the Minister and his department will consciously and consistently help to stimulate this cultural vacuum. The University of the Witwatersrand was the first to incorporate a course in African art for B.A. (Hons.) students in the history of art and it has now introduced a course for B.A. students. The University of South Africa has just appointed the first person to deal in the history of art department with traditional African art. It is virtually neglected by all our other South African universities. At the University of the Witwatersrand since 1978—and that is where it really started—research work has been done in respect of the Venda, the Pedi, the Ndebele and the Zulu, but this is just the tip of the iceberg as much has to be done in the documentation, collection and study of traditional African art. For White students this is a gigantic task and no Black students are available as yet to do this particular work. The constant stream of young Black people to the urban environment will seriously affect the future production of traditional African art.

Now what are the problems of the White research worker? They are very, very difficult indeed because the White research worker has to make many field trips in order to investigate. Secondly, the White research worker has the problem of language and often has to work through an interpreter. It takes some months for the White research worker to teach the interpreter to interpret what the people are actually telling him, rather than he trying to tell the research worker what he thinks they should tell him. This presents a very, very big problem. There is only one bursary at present of R15 000 which is given by the Standard Bank. I believe that many more bursaries should be given for this purpose. More emphasis must be given to an understanding of Black traditional culture, a sophisticated culture with a history of sound cultural background. By fostering all the arts, including traditional African art, in terms of this Bill, we will have more to publicize, more to tell the people about. Ours is the last generation that can still save for this world what Martin Arnold called “The history of the human spirit, whatever its origin”. Let it not be said of this generation that we did not try to save traditional African art.

In conclusion, I should like to ask: How do we differentiate between an artist and his contribution to a culture? No one can express it better than the Afrikaans poetess Elizabeth Eybers who was also given an honorary degree by RAU some years ago.

She expresses it very clearly in her poem “Pygmalion” where she says—

Mr. Speaker, I should like to convey my sincere thanks to hon. members for their contribution in connection with this Bill. I wish to thank the official Opposition and the NRP for their support and to express my surprise at the failure of the CP to advance cogent reasons for their declared opposition. But I shall come back to that in due course, I understand that the hon. member for Koedoespoort and the hon. member for Germiston District cannot be here this afternoon. They have tendered their apologies and I understand that the hon. member for Brakpan will stand in for them. Although it may not satisfy him that technical colleges are involved, I am convinced that he will nevertheless be a very valuable deputy for them. I can imagine that culture could have suffered a much more dismal fate at the hands of some of his colleagues in those benches.

†I should also like to welcome the hon. member for Bryanston as the new spokesman of the official Opposition in this field. His personal qualities render him particularly suitable when it comes to certain aspects of a debate on national education, particularly so when it concerns the promotion of culture and, most prominently, the category of performing arts. It is a little difficult, however, to define the exact category to which he belongs, i.e. whether it should be comedy, farce or melodrama.

*Mr. Speaker, I should like to associate myself with the tribute paid by several hon. members to the National Cultural Council which is now to disappear. I want to thank that council very sincerely for the work it has done. I deplore the fact that in the remarks made by the hon. member for Bryanston, an unfortunate, I might almost say an offensive, reflection was cast on the members of that council. Referring to the council, the hon. member said—

I do not think the hon. member meant it that way, but I nevertheless see an implied reflection in this on the members of the Cultural Council. Let us see who the people are who serve on that council. The chairman is the Director-General of National Education, and then there are people such as Prof. Thom, Prof. Donald Inskip, the chairman of the Fine Arts Commission, Prof. Muller Ballot. The latter is at present South Africa’s cultural attaché in Bonn. Then there are Dr. Paul Robbertse, a former president of the HSRC; Mrs. Johanna Raath, a well-known leader in the field of women’s organizations and chairwoman of the Commission for Family Education and Homemaking; the hon. member for Johannesburg West as chairman of the Commission for Youth Affairs; Prof. Hulme, chairman of the Commission for Land Service; Prof. Gawie Cillié and the late Prof. Anton Hartman. Then there is Prof. Geoff Cronjé, as well as people such as Prof. Harvey and Prof. Leon Hugo of Unisa at Woordkuns. These are truly eminent people. No Minister would be able to bully this type of person in any way. They are all independent thinkers, and as such they have given society in South Africa the benefit of their knowledge, stature, time and energy, and for that we should like to convey our sincere thanks to them.

I found it surprising to observe a gradual shift in the attitude of the CP towards this Bill. Except for the clause dealing with the abolition of the National Cultural Council, this Bill was finalized in all its particulars by the Government at the time when the former hon. member for Waterberg and the hon. member for Lichtenburg were still members of the Cabinet. A Cabinet committee finalized the Bill in October 1981, and at that stage, no objection whatsoever was raised to any provision of the Bill by either of those two members. What has happened here, therefore, is just another illustration of the almost cynical nonchalance with which the CP is deviating from its former standpoints and turning a somersault, as it were, with the result that its face is now where its backside used to be. This has been illustrated in other respects as well. We have already seen how the concept of co-responsibility and even the concept of common interests, concepts which those hon. members endorsed for years, have simply disappeared from their programme of principles. We have seen, too, how the concept of a Coloured homeland, which was regarded by three successive Prime Ministers as impracticable for the formation of separate States, is now being advocated by them. The labour legislation, too, which they supported over a number of years, is suddenly being strongly questioned by them. We have even seen how their standpoint with regard to the internal arrangements in South West Africa has suddenly become strongly critical of the Government, while in this respect, the Government used to have their consistent aid and support as members of an inner circle. I hope the public will take cognizance of the fact that this is a party which may vary its policy from day to day. One should also take cognizance of the way in which the CP’s standpoint has changed in the course of the debate. Initially, the hon. member for Germiston District only asked tentative questions and said that it would depend on my replies to certain questions whether they would support this Bill. The only question the hon. member asked, however, was whether, in the promotion of culture on a regional basis, there would be differentiation with regard to the various population groups as well. This is a question which I answered in my Second Reading speech.

The next speaker on the side of the CP, the hon. member for Koedoespoort, came to the conclusion that the CP would not be able to support this Bill, merely on the basis of the question of whether there would be three Ministers who would each have separate responsibility for the promotion of culture with regard to the three different population groups. One rather got the impression that a message had been relayed from Jaap’s HNP to Andries’s, or is it Connie’s HNP, telling them how they should fully adapt their policy to tie in with this as well.

It is a pity, therefore, that we cannot pass this measure with the support of the whole House. However, we shall proceed on the course we have chosen.

I should like to emphasize, on this occasion, my conviction, as well as that of the Government, with regard to the high priority of the promotion of culture for our survival in this country, as a White nation, but also as separate population groups, and for our progress, a high priority for the quality of our spiritual life or, to put it differently, for the excellence of our culture. There are examples in history of peoples which had even been militarily destroyed, which had lost their political self-determination, and had been economically ruined, but which could not be broken or subjected because they had a source of strength in the form of true cultural wealth, which they could draw upon and which could inspire them. For this reason, I believe, it is of the utmost importance for us in this country, in the circumstances in which we live, that all who are concerned with the creation of culture and with the promotion and enjoyment of culture should recognize this high priority accorded to culture, should emphasize the high priority of our spiritual life, and should prevent it from being obscured, as it were, by the urgent demands of the military, political and economic sectors.

Mr. Speaker, in the course of the debate hon. members frequently asked questions and expressed misgivings about the question of exactly how the promotion of culture would take place. I just wish to emphasize once again, by way of stating our standpoint in general, that it is my belief and the belief of hon. members on this side of the House, that culture is a comprehensive concept. The promotion of culture embraces many different facets, therefore. One cannot impose simplistic constraints upon culture in order to make it conform to one interpretation only. In fact, I believe that virtually everyone who participated in this debate recognized this point. Therefore it is not possible to bring about a single administrative or management pattern for the promotion of culture, because different methods are followed with regard to the various aspects of culture.

Some aspects of culture are highly individualistic. The hon. member Prof. Olivier emphasized this aspect. I believe that this applies in the sphere of the creative arts in particular. With his quotation of Matthew Arnold’s definition, which actually concentrates on what is perfect in spiritual life, the hon. member for Bezuidenhout emphasized this rather exclusively individualistic view; a matter which was mentioned by the hon, member for Virginia as well. However, he rightly warned that we should be careful not to over-emphasize this aspect. Even in the case of highly individualistic cultural expressions, which occur in the sphere in the creative arts in particular, the artist as a human being is still rooted in a community. The art of Eduardo Villa—to whom the hon. member for Bezuidenhout referred with appreciation, a man whom we both admire—the art of Eduardo Villa, too, can only be understood in the light of the fact that he has become rooted in the South African community. He is no longer merely an Italian, because his art would have been different if he had not become rooted here in South Africa.

As against the individualistic aspects of art, however, there are others which are far more strongly associated with a particular community or people, and when one refers to specific commissions of the present National Cultural Council, one thinks, in particular, of aspects such as family education, home-making, youth actions and land service, which are all clearly rooted in a particular community. However, several hon. members—I would say all of them—rightly pointed out that some aspects of culture transcend the boundaries which exist between various peoples or communities, representing, as it were, a universal or international aspect. One finds this, for example, in the sophisticated aspects of the performing arts, where the works of art involved have become the common property of all cultures in the developed world. One could say the same of the popular promotion of the natural sciences as well as the popular promotion of some aspects of the human sciences. Therefore culture involves individualistic, strongly community-orientated as well as more universal or international aspects.

However, as I have already mentioned in passing, the basic premise of this Bill is that the promotion of culture, especially in the form of non-formal education, is fundamentally community-orientated, even where that promotion of culture concerns a culture which includes a great deal of common property in which other groups also share, such as the culture in which the White nation and the various Coloured population groups share. There is a great deal which is shared, but in spite of that, culture is related to the community life of any clearly distinguishable sector of the community. For that reason, the premise of this Bill is that essentially there has to be differentiated promotion of culture, based on the community life of the group concerned.

The Bill does two things, therefore. In the first place, as has already been emphasized, it makes statutory provision for Government support for all communities from all population groups, with a view to the promotion of their culture. In the second place, it basically maintains the differentiated promotion of culture, but with a greater measure of flexibility than in the past, in order to create the possibility of involving members of all population groups where the organization concerned regards this as desirable in its cultural strategy. Here, I think, the hon. member for Bryanston went a little too far in his speech, perhaps, when he began by saying that he welcomed the Bill because “it introduces a non-racial basis for the promotion of culture for the whole population”, although, on the other hand, he over-reacted by objecting later that “it after all reinstates the racially segregated promotion of culture”. I think we should adopt a nuanced approach to these matters according to the cultural aspect involved. As I have said, some aspects are more community-orientated, while others are more universal and should therefore be accessible to others as well. I accept that the various parties represented in this House would differ about the balance to be struck between the differentiated promotion of culture and the accessibility of the universal aspects, about the relative importance to be accorded to each and about the delineation of their respective spheres. I am pleased, however, that the spokesmen of the CP, who unfortunately refuse to support this Bill, have nevertheless recognized this basic fact, this basic truth, although with some reservations. I just want to add that the Government will not allow the promotion of culture, in so far as it involves the State, to take place in a way which would lead to the destruction of the cultural integrity of any particular community. Nor will the Government allow circumstances to arise which would cause any group to feel threatened by the possibility of having its culture taken over by others or even being forced to throw open its culture to all. This is what I wanted to say about the question of differentiated separate cultures as against the creation of opportunities to participate in universal aspects which occur in many cultural manifestations.

Then I want to emphasize again, arising from the remarks made by hon. members, that the main point about this Bill, as has been stressed by several hon. members, is that the State does not engage or participate in culture, but that at most, it gives financial and organizational support to organizations in the private sector and tries to encourage the initiative of the community in respect of the promotion of culture. It is an illusion—I believe that the expectations of the hon. member for Koedoespoort in this respect are unrealistic—to think that the State can provide by regulation or by law whether an individual should decide whether he wishes to adjure or adhere to his own culture, whether he wishes to be loyal or disloyal to it.

Personal adherence to a culture is a personal act of will. It is a question of personal attitude and it is not for the State to lay down any requirements in this connection. I believe that there are even limits to the extent to which the State can bring its influence to bear or can interfere in order to promote or prevent acculturation or the influence exercised over one another by neighbouring cultures. Acculturation and mutual cultural influence also depend on the will and the desire of the cultural community involved regarding the extent to which it wishes to expose itself to the influence of other cultures or to exclude that influence.

It is possible for the State, though, to create certain material circumstances which would be conducive to cultural security, by providing aid and support, for example, in accordance with the basic premise of the Government that it regards separate residential areas and separate schools as an essential component of the social order for which it wishes to accept responsibility. This will then be an important factor in determining the extent to which acculturation takes place, if at all.

The hon. member Prof. Olivier in particular asked several, I would almost say niggling, questions about the exact way in which promotion of culture would take place under given circumstances. Here I want to state the conviction of the Government that it is up to every population group or the Minister responsible for promoting the culture of that population group to decide for themselves how these things should be done. We cannot dictate to them; it is for every population group to decide, through the organs which are available to it or which will be made available to it in due course, whether it wishes to provide, within its particular population group, for differentiated promotion of culture among the various subgroups. Here I am thinking, for example, of the Afrikaans-speaking people as distinct from the English-speaking people among the Whites, the Griquas as distinct from the Malays among the Coloured people, and also the various Indian groups. This is something which should not be dictated from above, but which should be left to the discretion of the population group concerned to decide for itself whether or not it wishes to differentiate.

I believe that the groups concerned should also decide for themselves whether they need regional councils, how many regional councils they want and how their regions should be delimitated. It is not for us to dictate this to them from above.

As regards the questions asked by the hon. members for Bryanston and Koedoespoort and the hon. member Prof. Olivier about exactly how the Government believes the promotion of culture for Blacks should be undertaken, I want to emphasize here that in the spirit in which the Government has constituted the Cabinet Committee which has to reflect on the political future of, in particular, the members of Black nations living outside the national States in the RSA, the basic approach in this regard, too, should be that there should be consultation with the relevant leaders of the national States and with the Black local authorities within the RSA. They will have to decide to what extent the promotion of culture for the Black ethnic groups can be supported by liaison with the Governments of their national States, which are actually responsible for the promotion of the culture of those particular nations. They will have to decide whether there should be liaison with the local authorities, which may be the most suitable bodies to provide practical assistance and guidance from within the community itself in connection with the promotion of culture. In this way, they can also decide among themselves what degree of differentiation is required in the promotion of culture for the various Black population groups.

The same applies to the question asked by several hon. members about the procedure to be followed to determine whether there should be less or more joint promotion of common or universal elements in culture. Here, too, it can safely be left to the decision-making bodies of each population group to decide whether or not they want to co-operate with the others and how they want to co-operate. There are various possibilities. The respective Ministers could consult with one another by way of an inter-ministerial committee. There could even be consultation within a specific region between the separate regional councils responsible for the promotion of the culture of the various population groups in that region. I believe that there is even room, especially in the sphere of the creative arts, for a joint council for the promotion of the creative arts. As I have said, this is a matter which is already being investigated by a commission. Such a joint council need not encroach in any way on the right of any group to supplement this by initiating their own promotional strategy, with regard to the creative arts as well.

The point I want to emphasize is that whatever the various groups decide about the various aspects which hon. members are so anxious about, hon. members must remember that neither the Minister nor the department nor officials nor councils can practise culture. They can only promote, by means of financial support, the practice of culture by the community itself. The department is deeply aware of this. The hon. member for Bryanston in particular was afraid that the Minister would initiate a strategy for the promotion of culture which would be controlled by officialdom. He need not worry about that. The Minister and the department are perfectly aware of the fact that the practice of culture is not a matter for officialdom or for the State.

I should like to express my appreciation in this connection to the hon. member for Kimberley North, who not only gave us the benefit of the memories of his personal contribution to the initiation of the strategy for the promotion of culture on an informal basis in the days of adult education, as it used to be called, but who also emphasized the practical reality of the existing decentralized regional strategies for the promotion of culture. I want to endorse his remarks and to state that the idea of regional councils does not introduce a new structure. In actual fact, the Bill will only give statutory recognition to the existing regional organization of informally instituted regional councils which are already active and are already making an important contribution. I want to assure hon. members that I as Minister will ensure that members of those regional councils, who are indeed cultural leaders in their own right, will be independent persons who will represent all sectors of the cultural and social life of the population group concerned. If we did anything else, we would be engaging in a futile exercise.

With reference to the remarks made by the hon. member Prof. Olivier about the way in which the promotion of culture abroad is going to be undertaken in future, I want to point out that in the present National Culture Promotion Act, too, the subsection dealing with the introduction of culture abroad …

Mr. Speaker, I should like to put the following to the Minister: He has given considerable attention to the idea of separate regional councils for the various race groups. In the legislation, however, no mention is made of that. When one analyses the legislation, one gets the impression that the intention is that the regional councils are going to be constituted on a geographical basis for the inhabitants of specific regions. However, the hon. the Minister has now introduced a completely different idea, namely the one of regional councils for the various groups. Is my interpretation correct?

The hon. member himself interpreted it this way in the construction he put on clause 4(1) in his speech, i.e. that “this will lead to racially segregated promotion of culture”.

I was referring to the fact that various Ministers would participate in it, and not the regional councils.

As far as regional councils are concerned, I made it quite clear in my Second Reading speech that it is the intention that there should not only be different Ministers, but that regional councils should also be established for the various population groups at the regional level. This also serves as a reply to the question asked by the hon. member for Germiston District. I thought this was clear from my introductory speech. As far as the promotion of culture abroad is concerned, I just wish to point out that in the existing legislation there is no differentiation on the basis of race with regard to the promotion of culture abroad. The Minister of National Education is already responsible for the promotion abroad of all aspects of culture in South Africa—not only the culture of the Whites. That is why our cultural attachés at foreign embassies introduce all forms of culture in South Africa to people abroad and that is why reciprocal bursaries between South Africa and countries abroad are available for the culture of all population groups, and the exchange of groups of visitors between South Africa and other countries likewise applies to all population groups. I think that the promotion abroad of culture from South Africa will continue to be dealt with on such a centralized basis in future.

Allow me briefly to convey my thanks more specifically to the various hon. members. The hon. member for Virginia emphasized an important point when he said that culture was associated with a particular people, but that it covered a wide field and could not be regarded as the isolated property of that people. I also want to thank him for the way in which he exposed the fallacy of the remarks made by the hon. member for Bryanston about culture-sharing, as I have also tried to do in my argument.

This brings me to the remark made by the hon. member for Virginia about the fact that we should not politicize cultural organizations. I want to endorse this wholeheartedly. There is a close connection between politics and culture. Politics provides the framework for an orderly society, which makes it possible for culture to flourish. Culture, in turn, provides an important incentive or motive for the promotion of politics, as well as stating basic premises in politics. However, it is important that we should recognize the autonomy of these two spheres in society and that we should therefore avoid politicizing within cultural organizations so that there may also be the greatest possible interaction in those cultural organizations between people of different political persuasions.

I want to thank the hon. member for Johannesburg West for the very valuable description he gave, arising from his personal involvement with the National Cultural Council, of the work done by that council in connection with the preparation of this Bill, as well as for his personal contribution as a member for the National Cultural Council.

I want to thank the hon. member for Standerton, too, for the enthusiasm with which he spoke about the promotion of culture, and for his contribution on the importance of decentralization, not only in education, but in culture as well, as he rightly inferred from the HSRC report on education.

I have already referred to the hon. member for Kimberley North. I want to thank him again for his remarks.

I have already dealt with several of the remarks made by the hon. member for Bryanston. I believe that I have replied to the most important questions he asked.

The hon. member for Germiston District made a remark to the effect that her culture—I take it that this is the culture which she and I both share—has been built up over a period of 3½ centuries. We must be careful—this goes for us as Afrikaners, too—not to be too limited in our view of the duration of our culture. Van Wyk Louw warned us that our culture did not begin in 1652, but that the Flemish Middle Ages, the Renaissance, as well as Rome, Athens and Jerusalem were an integral part of our culture. We must achieve that depth of cultural perspective because these things also form part of the universality which we and other contemporary cultures have in common.

†The hon. member for Durban North made some valuable contributions, both in exposing the political shams of some speakers of the official Opposition, especially emphasizing that their apparent recognition of ethnicity, is little more than lip-service, and also his emphasis on the fact that the PFP concept is not really the sharing of power, but actually a transfer of power. I wish to thank him for that valuable contribution. In respect of his question regarding the proposed new Natal Symphony Orchestra, I should like to give him the assurance that the Government has great sympathy for this orchestra. It has in fact approved in principle the supporting of symphony orchestras for the Performing Arts Councils of both Natal and the Orange Free State, but the question of the real financing is something that has not yet been finalized as a result of the present financial difficulties.

I hope the Cape Town City Orchestra is not forgotten.

I believe I have given fairly comprehensive replies to the questions asked by the hon. member Prof. Olivier as well. I just want to make a brief remark arising from a question asked by the hon. member for Koedoespoort—I believe I have referred to most of his questions as well. He asked whether there really were any individuals who practised their culture completely outside the context of any ethnic group. During the latest census, the Black people completing the census forms were asked to indicate to which Black ethnic group they belonged. While almost 20 million Blacks completed the census forms or had them completed, barely 300 000—these are approximate figures which I am quoting from memory—had any doubt as to their ethnic context and indicated that they were simply South Africans.

Against this background I want to thank hon. members once again for their contributions.

Question agreed to (Conservative Party dissenting).

Bill read a Second Time.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

In this Bill it is being proposed that minor amendments be made to five Acts—

1. (a) The Correspondence Colleges Act, 1965 (Act 59 of 1965).

At the request of the Correspondence College Council, which controls all correspondence colleges in the RSA, provision is being made in clause 2 of the Bill for the council to make payments from the Correspondence College Fidelity Guarantee Fund to remunerate persons appointed by the council to investigate the way in which the instructions of the council are being carried out by any college or colleges. The council itself does not have any staff to undertake such investigations and it has to make use of the services of specialists, and should therefore be able to remunerate them.

1. (b) The Educational Services Act, 1967 (Act 41 of 1967).

In the first place, effect is being given in clause 3 to the requirement of the Treasury that the Act should provide that any rule affecting State income or expenditure made by the Minister in connection with examinations is subject to the concurrence of the Minister of Finance. It has also been necessary, after consultation with the Department of Justice, to adjust, in the relevant sections of the Act, the amounts of fines for offences committed in connection with national examinations.

1. (c) The Cultural Institutions Act, 1969 (Act 29 of 1969).

With a view to more effective functioning, provision is being made in clause 4 for the council of any declared cultural institution to determine the objects and functions of its institutions with the approval of the Minister, and for the Minister to publish these objects and functions in the Gazette.

There are at present 22 institutions falling under the Cultural Institutions Act, 1969 (Act 29 of 1969). These include cultural history museums, natural history museums, art collections, libraries, and last but not least, a zoo. Since the various institutions are controlled by an umbrella Act and there is no clear indication in the Act of the specific objects of any of the various institutions, the need exists to announce the objects and functions of each of these 22 declared cultural institutions by way of a notice in the Gazette.

†Mr. Speaker, by making known in this way the objects and functions of each of these cultural institutions, greater clarity will be achieved about their fields of operation as far as the collection and preservation of material and research on it are concerned. It will also avoid unwarranted duplication as each institution will have at its disposal a clear description of the objects and functions of all the other institutions.

1. (d) The Mentally Retarded Children’s Training Act, 1974 (Act 63 of 1974).

It has become necessary to stipulate in the Act concerned that governing bodies of State-aided training centres for mentally retarded children shall comply with certain instructions regarding bookkeeping and the submission of annual financial statements. Governing bodies must, for instance, keep separate accounts of amounts donated by the private sector for specific purposes and for which tax rebate certificates can be issued. Furthermore, provision is made in clause 6 for delegation by the Director-General of his powers in this regard, and by the Minister of his powers to appoint members of governing bodies of training centres.

1. (e) The Technical Colleges Act, 1981 (Act 104 of 1981).

As there is a great need for tuition by correspondence at technical college level, the definition of “post-school education” is amended in clause 7 to include such tuition by correspondence. It is intended to establish a central national institution to provide, on technical college level, post-school education by correspondence, thus taking over the service which is at present being offered by the Technikon RSA on this level, so that the latter can confine itself to correspondence tuition on purely tertiary level.

The other amendment to this Act in clause 8 makes it possible for a college council to appoint committees and to delegate powers to them to assist it in the management tasks of a college.

Mr. Speaker, I request hon. members to accept the amendment with a view to greater efficiency.

Mr. Speaker, in order to reassure the hon. the Minister right at the outset, let me inform him that we, the PFP, also support this legislation of his. We do so with pleasure, since every amendment moved by the hon. the Minister is an improvement on the existing legislation.

Mr. Speaker, we have just listened to one of the best speeches made by the hon. member for Bryanston in many years. We should very much like to thank the hon. member for the support of the official Opposition. Personally, I think that the amendments being effected do not affect any principle and that they fulfil the requirements created by altered circumstances, thereby facilitating the implementation of this legislation and making it more streamlined. We are grateful for the support given by the official Opposition. We on this side are also satisfied with the amendments which are being effected.

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the CP I should like to announce that we shall not be crossing swords with the hon. the Minister of National Education concerning this legislation on this pleasant Friday afternoon. The CP also supports this measure. It is a technical administrative measure aimed at greater efficiency, as the hon. the Minister has said. It removes certain doubts. Apart from that, it is also a precautionary measure, since clause 3 requires that the Minister of Finance grant his approval before a rule is made.

I think clause 5 is probably one of the most important provisions of this Bill, since the governing body of a state-aided training centre has to keep certain accounting records for certain purposes. The hon. the Minister mentions in his Second Reading speech that these are also required with a view to a rebate for income tax purposes. It is interesting to note from the speech of the hon. the Minister that in the case of institutions which fall under the jurisdiction of the hon. the Minister of National Education, if someone makes a donation to such an institution, he receives a rebate for income tax purposes. Obviously, it is to be welcomed that there is to be a rebate when a donation is made to educational institutions. I assume that there will also be a rebate in respect of donations to cultural history museums, art galleries and zoological gardens, to which the hon. the Minister referred. The hon. member for Nelspruit is not present at the moment, but I know that this is also a matter which he propagated, and it does not fall within the jurisdiction of the hon. the Minister either. However, it seems strange that one can make a donation for research at a cultural history museum and to zoological gardens and be granted a rebate, whereas one gets no rebate for donations to the National Parks Board, for example. But that is just by the way.

The CP also welcomes clause 4. It provides for greater clarity in that the functions of the 22 different organizations are defined. We also welcome clause 6, which provides for delegation in accordance with modern legislation in a complex governmental structure.

The CP welcomes clause 7 in particular. It empowers technical colleges, too, to offer correspondence courses. This opens up a new field for the extension of the activities of technical colleges. As the hon. the Minister has probably been told by the knowledgeable hon. member for Springs, there are certain colleges that are struggling to make ends meet. That is why it is to be welcomed that the scope of the operations of technical colleges is now being further extended.

Sir, the CP welcomes this legislation.

Mr. Speaker, the NRP as well is adopting a positive approach towards this Bill. However, I should just like to highlight some of the aspects of the Bill.

The first clause I should like to focus attention on is the clause dealing specifically with the bookkeeping procedures to be followed by a school which caters for the training of mentally retarded children. In this connection we welcome the discipline which is being brought to the budgeting and accounting control procedure in these schools. I think the hon. the Minister will be the first to agree that in the past, certainly until 1980, the education of mentally retarded children was entirely dependent on the goodwill of the public and especially upon parents of such children. After that date the State took a direct interest by first of all providing subsidies and latterly by providing financing for the infrastructure as well as for the salaries of the teachers in such institutions. I think that when State funds are expended in this direction, like in all other directions, it is necessary to prescribe the bookkeeping procedure which should be observed in handling those funds.

But in welcoming this I believe the feedback of information to the Minister from these different institutions will indicate a considerable deficiency not only as regards the number of institutions available for the training of retarded children, but also as regards the financing of these institutions. I consider myself to be privileged by having in my constituency one of the first schools for mentally retarded children that is being financed entirely by State funds. I do not of course refer to the maintenance and running costs. These costs still constitute a considerable burden on the parents of such children. However, I should like to take this opportunity to thank the hon. the Minister and his department for making funds available for the construction of a school for the training of mentally retarded children in the Durban North area. This school will cater for approximately one-third of the needs of Whites in Natal, not to mention the needs of the other population groups. There is still a considerable amount of leeway to be made up in the provision of schools and teachers and resource centres in this particular field. However, we are most grateful for the fact that the hon. the Minister and his department are taking such an intense interest in this sector in so far as the training of mentally retarded children is concerned.

Then, when it comes to the technikon itself, I believe that the hon. the Minister has recognized the need here for tertiary education at technical level to be facilitated at regional level via correspondence courses as well. Many of the technikon pupils—the hon. the Minister will agree—are people in full-time employment, who, as a supplementary on-the-job training, find it necessary and desirable to undertake academic studies at a technikon. Many of the students are unable to take advantage of technikon education simply because of practical problems, and studying at home by correspondence is certainly going to increase the number of students who can avail themselves of technical college education via correspondence.

I think the hon. the Minister will have recognized also that one of our most famous— a world famous—institution, Unisa, which is built entirely on correspondence courses, found it necessary to decentralize its activities right throughout South Africa in order to maximize the educational opportunity for their pupils. Similarly we now find that the technikon of the RSA, which has performed this job admirably over many years, is going to be able also to encourage their sister technikons at regional level to introduce correspondence training for their pupils.

I should like, however, to add that it is a great pity that the hon. the Minister has not yet seen his way clear to opening tertiary education to all race groups at the different institutions. That includes the fixed and permanent establishment of technikons. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether it will now be possible for a member of a race group other than White to undertake a correspondence course at any of the White technikons à propos the facilities which are being made available to them through this amending legislation. I think it will be tragic if the correspondence students to these institutions were barred simply because they were members of another race group. That is my question to the hon. the Minister. If, in fact, a member of a race group other than White is able to undertake a correspondence course, why then should that individual also not be allowed to attend a technikon in a part-time or full-time capacity?

Oh no, man!

Mr. Speaker, that, of course, has been the answer of the NP for years and years. The answer has always been: “Oh no, man!” Let me ask the hon. member for Virginia this question: When there are members of other cultural groups in South Africa who want to promote themselves and to develop their capabilities and their acumen by way of further education, what has that got to do with the colour of a man’s skin? Surely, that is a decision which we should leave with the universities. The senates and the authorities of the universities in South Africa are very capable people. They are not there to play politics. They are there to afford every citizen of South Africa the opportunity of furthering his education, and in doing so, not only to promote his own welfare but also the welfare and stability of the whole of South Africa. A hungry and an ignorant population is the greatest danger to democracy or to civilization in any part of the world. I believe the hon. member for Virginia will agree with that. He will agree with me when I say that an uneducated mob, which has no possibility of selfadvancement, is a greater danger to stability than those who have a vested stake in the country through being able to earn a decent living and to maximize their potential.

We were very disappointed indeed, Mr. Speaker, to discover recently, in today’s enlightened late twentieth century atmosphere, that the hon. the Minister of National Education has made a public statement that he was going to introduce a quota system into universities in South Africa for the attendance of members of other race groups of White universities. A quota system, Mr. Speaker! I think this is regressing into the eighteenth century, and not becoming of that hon. Minister. We can only assume that the hon. the Minister made a statement in the light of the battle of “die berge” in the Northern Transvaal. [Interjections.] It must indeed be, Mr. Speaker. The De Lange Committee, which did such admirable work, advised the hon. the Minister and this House in its report to leave the decision in connection with the attendance of universities by other race groups to the authorities of those universities. It was a recommendation of the De Lange Committee. [Interjections.] We cannot tell universities what the restrictions must be. That is something they have to decide for themselves. As politicians, we may be brilliant and modest people but we do not know all the answers. We should leave it to those institutions to decide for themselves what the restrictions are to be upon the admission of people of other race groups to those universities. Tertiary education is the one area where the minimum amount of disruption will be caused by allowing these institutions to decide for themselves. I know that the hon. the Minister will not be able to reply to me in this debate that deals with technikons in regard to his attitude as far as universities are concerned. However, I should like to say to the hon. the Minister that his reputation, his insight and his intelligence go beyond making a statement that is paternalistic towards universities. If ever we want to avoid discrediting our own universities nationally and internationally, we must avoid paternalistic statements in regard to whom they can admit as students to those universities and whom they cannot.

The Medunsa University which caters specifically for medical students in South Africa from race groups other than the White race group has an underpopulation of students.

What has that got to do with the Bill?

Mr. Speaker, we are dealing with tertiary education and the preparation of people for their future careers. The hon. member for Kimberley North now wishes to exercise differentiation between people at technikon and university level. That is snobbishness. When it comes to technikons he wants to separate them from the universities. That hon. member knows that tertiary education at technikon level is as good as tertiary education at university level. That is why we are discussing university level education now. The point that I want to make to both the hon. the Minister and that hon. member is that Medunsa is underpopulated in terms of the number of its students while at Cape Town, Stellenbosch and Pretoria universities all the medical faculties are turning away students simply because they cannot be accommodated. That is the tragedy of differentiated education at tertiary level, an injustice to the individual and to society.

I believe that I have made my point in this respect. I hope that the hon. the Minister will take note of my comments and that during a future debate we may be able to expand on these facets for the information of the hon. the Minister. The NRP has pleasure in supporting the Bill before us.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Durban North tried to make a fuss about the fact that ignorance constitutes a greater threat to South Africa than anything else.

Yes, that is correct.

I just want to tell the hon. member that his ignorance of the concept of politics in South Africa is the cause of his party having dwindled to such an extent.

We believe in quality. [Interjections.]

We cannot convince one another in this House, and that is why their position has deteriorated to such an extent that today they comprise a small minority group. I think the hon. the Minister will reply to the hon. member in this regard.

On behalf of this side of the House I should like to thank the hon. the Minister for this fine piece of legislation which is to be placed on the Statute Book. In the relatively short period in which the hon. the Minister has been dealing with the portfolio of National Education, he has increasingly singled out essential issues in education, and we greatly appreciate this. In particular I wish to express the appreciation of this side of the House for the commendable practice which the hon. the Minister introduced at the beginning of the last session, i.e. to issue a written reply to certain issues raised, even during the recess. This is a burden he has placed on his department. I reiterate that we on this side of the House greatly appreciate the fact that he takes tremendous pains to reply to standpoints.

I should like to endorse the advantage of clause 4 of the Bill, in terms of which the hon. the Minister provides further evidence of how this Government, through rationalization, is defining additional fields in order to prevent overlapping by departments and other sections and to ensure that everything runs smoothly and functionally as far as this organization is concerned. We appreciate this.

As far as clause 7 is concerned, I wish to state that I was surprised to hear that there are altogether 38 correspondence colleges in our country. It was a little difficult to determine how many courses are offered to how many students in how many fields and what subjects are offered. I should not like to burden a department with a heavier workload, but I do think it would be as well if the department could obtain statistics from the various colleges at the end of each year. With the aid of such statistics we would know precisely what the needs were and what would be required in the future. I reiterate that I do not wish to burden the department with statistics, but I think it is essential that we should be able to keep abreast of the fields of study in respect of which needs exist, with a view to the future.

We on this side of the House should also like to express our gratitude for the fact that there has been a further division between the technical colleges on the one hand and the technikons on the other, so that the technikons may now also have their own correspondence-orientated courses. This further emphasizes a unique character for our technikons. Technikons have emerged very strongly during the past few years due to the actions of the Government. There is now a definite division between our university training and the world of the technikons. Now there is also a division between the field of the technikons and the technical colleges, or the sphere of our secondary education. We greatly appreciate this contribution and we should like to congratulate the hon. the Minister on a fine piece of legislation. We wish to assure those in education, particularly our young people who have been forced out of formal education due to economic circumstances, that in this way we are affording them fine opportunities to equip themselves better for a better life in the future by developing finer abilities for the wonderful future our country offers them.

Mr. Speaker, I sincerely thank the hon. members for their positive support and many valuable suggestions and contributions.

In replying briefly to them I wish to say here and now to the hon. member for Brentwood that the suggestion he put forward, i.e. that the report furnished by what I might call the commercial correspondence colleges are incomplete and unsatisfactory, and that the department should try to obtain a clear picture of the extent of their activities by receiving annual reports containing statistics in regard to their students, is a very good suggestion. I shall certainly follow the matter up and ask my department to give attention to this matter so that it can be put into effect.

For the edification of the hon. member for Brakpan, I wish to explain that the rebate on income tax to which I referred only applies to the training centres for mentally retarded children. This is due to an amendment effected by the hon. the Minister of Finance in the Income Tax Act last year so that donations for education purposes other than for tertiary education—universities and technikons—which in the past qualified for exemption, may now under certain circumstances also qualify for tax exemption. There are specific requirements. The education programme in question and the education institution in question must be approved by the Treasury. This is not a blanket approval. Unfortunately I must add that the hon. member and I are probably both disappointed that tax exemption cannot yet be granted to cultural institutions in respect of financial donations or contributions, nor can such exemption be granted in respect of donations to zoological gardens or game parks for purposes of research. I am negotiating with the standing committee on taxation about this matter. We have received various representations from the former member for Johannesburg North, for example, to the effect that we should give people who make financial contributions to our cultural institutions, our art museums and so on, the opportunity to deduct those expenses for income tax purposes. We have not yet had any success in this regard. The present accommodation only applies to donations in respect of schools.

I should just like to explain for the sake of clarity, that the possibility created for technical colleges to offer tuition by correspondence will be implemented on a centralized basis. I am of the opinion that it would be very cost-intensive if we were to offer correspondence training at various technical colleges. We shall probably have to centralize this to a great extent. On the other hand, the hon. member for Durban Point made the very valid point that to the extent that this tuition by correspondence increases, as is being experienced with the work of Unisa at university level, it will nevertheless probably be necessary to offer decentralized, supplementary services to some extent. For that reason the legislation has been so formulated as to incorporate a degree of flexibility. The immediate intention, however, is to accommodate centralized tuition by correspondence which is at present being offered at a post-school level by the Technikon RSA, in a separate institution, a Technical College RSA.

†The hon. member for Durban North referred to the importance of the contribution made by the public, parents and private organizations in the field of training centres for mentally retarded children. I should like to pay tribute to the tremendous work that is being done, on the part of private initiative, not only in establishing centres and schools for the teaching of the handicapped or for the training of the mentally retarded, but also to the way in which they maintain an interest in these institutions and provide supplementary support in addition to the financing from the Government to make it possible to run these schools. We owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to those private initiative organizations. I think this is an ex-example on which we should remodel the financing of our education system in general. In other words, we should call for some contribution, however modest, on the part of the parents and the community to supplement the taxpayers’ funding of schools.

I should also like to mention that at present the Government provides 95% of the capital expenditure for schools for the handicapped or training centres for the mentally retarded. It provides the full cost of salaries and most of the educational material used in those centres. On other items the Government pays a subsidy of 80% or more. Although I agree that we can never really meet all the requirements and that there will always be deficiencies, the department is in fact providing a very considerable input in this area.

The hon. member repeated his “kenwy-sie” in respect of the admission of non-Whites to institutions designed primarily for Whites. I am not going to deal today, as he has correctly anticipated, with technikons and universities. We will probably be tabling draft legislation in this regard later in the session. However, I should like to explain that there is no intention of changing the present situation according to which there is no restriction in respect of population groups applying to institutions providing correspondence tuition, whether at university, technikon, technical college or school level. It is, however, for very good reason that we have decided not to change the policy in respect of the openness of technical colleges. Technical colleges are not only institutions where technical training is provided, but they are in a very true sense community colleges, colleges which in most cases specialize particularly in general adult education courses, cultural enrichment courses and hobby promotion courses, which are very closely related to community life. Since these technical colleges are primarily community colleges, it is considered inadvisable that they should become institutions where large groups of other population groups congregate together and share the same facilities. We believe it is unwise, and therefore it is only in very exceptional circumstances that permission is granted for persons from other population groups to receive training, especially in the technical field, at White technical colleges. We have, however, set up an interdepartmental standing committee to deal with applications from people of other population groups for entry into both technical colleges and technikons so as to ensure that the requirements of these people are properly noted and that where there are insufficient educational opportunities available, these can be made available whilst, in the meanwhile, interim arrangements can be made to accommodate such persons in order not to deprive them of the educational opportunities that they seek.

With these remarks I should like to thank hon. members again for their support for this Bill.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Bill not committed.

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

The amendment of section 10G (1) of the Forest Act, 196, as proposed in the Bill before this House, is of minor scope but will mean that the financial position of the Forestry Industry Fund can be put on a realistic basis that keeps abreast of altered circumstances.

†At the time of the amendment, in 1973, of the Forest Act, 1968, to provide for the imposition of a levy on any timber or imported timber derivative, a limit of 20 cents per cubic metre was placed on the levy. The levy had to be increased on a number of occasions since its imposition on 1 April 1974, and the limit of 20 cents per cubic metre was reached on 1 January 1983. Notwithstanding this latest increase, indications are that the revenue accuring to the Forestry Industry Fund from the levy will still be inadequate for the Council to meet all its commitments, many of which are of an ongoing nature. The Bill before the House will allow the upward adjustment of the levy from time to time, without a ceiling being placed on the maximum of the levy.

*Although there are specific advantages in not fixing the maximum amount of the levy by statute, in that it would eliminate the need to effect an amendment to the Act each time the maximum amount of the levy is reached, the organized forestry industry hold certain views in this regard. I have taken cognizance of these views and I intend moving an amendment in the Committee Stage to the effect that the present maximum levy of 20 cents per cubic metre be increased to 30 cents per cubic metre.

I can give hon. members, as well as those in the foresty industry who are responsible for paying this levy, the assurance that an adjustment to the levy be handled with great circumspection. Hon. members are aware of the important role which the Forestry Council—in which all interests in the forestry industry have representation—has been playing up to now in the stabilization and development of this industry. Consequently, the Forestry Council must be consulted in terms of the Act each time the levy is adjusted. In addition, section 10(4) of the Forest Act, 1968, requires that before the publication of a notice in connection with the adjustment of the levy, all interested persons who might have objections, be called upon to lodge such objections in writing within a period of 30 days.

This is the scope of the Bill.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Minister has made it very easy for us in these benches to support this Bill. His amendment proposes a ceiling, as he has mentioned, on the amount that can be levied. This is, of course, a very laudable development. In passing. Sir, I might just add that the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs could take a leaf from this hon. Minister’s book. The hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs was not prepared to accept any restriction on his power in regard to levies on fuel. The very reasonable attitude of the hon. the Minister of Environment Affairs and Fisheries in regard to this matter has not gone unnoticed by us in these benches.

I might change my attitude next year.

As the hon. the Minister has pointed out, the original levy of 20 cents was introduced way back in 1973 and by now inflation has caught up with it. It has now become necessary to increase the levy. One may just add that the levy is used by the council to finance various projects in this field. For example, it finances research in the paper and pulp industry, in saw-milling, in timber grading and in timber-trend analysis. It contributes to wattle research, to research in plant pathology and entomology. It also contributes to research in combating forest weeds. It has also contributed towards the founding of a non-profit-making company. This company is concerned with the timber industry and manpower services. It runs two training centres, one in Sabie and one near Pietermaritzburg. At these centres skilled personnel for the industry is trained. It should be noted that the personnel is for the industry in general and not just for the Forestry Department. It also researches market development and long-term forestry planning.

For these reasons and because this levy is being used for the direct benefit of the industry, and has been limited in the proposed amendment, we in these benches will give the Bill our full support.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Minister pointed out that the levy of 20 cents per cubic metre is too low for the functions of this council and that there will have to be an upward adjustment. The official Opposition supports this proposal and we want to thank them for this. The hon. member for Albany also elaborated in general terms on the activities of the council concerned.

I do, however, feel that we owe it to ourselves and to the Forestry Council to take a closer look at the activities of that council. It would be very easy for us all to agree this afternoon and go home a little earlier, but I do think we ought to give a little attention to this matter. I think we must consider the way the council is constituted and what the council actually does. The hon. member for Nelspruit will discuss the constitution of the council and I shall concentrate on what the council actually does.

I took a look at the annual report of the council. It is the 1979-’80 annual report, which, unfortunately, is the most recent report I could find. This report clearly sets out what the functions of this council are. The council functions through a number of standing committees and ad hoc working committees that give attention to specific matters. The total expenditure of the council was approximately R1,5 million in 1979-’80. This increased to R1,65 million in 1980-’81, R1,758 million in 1981-’82 and R2,27 million has been voted for 1982-’83. That shows us the scope of the activities of this council. Let us now take a look at what this council actually does. In the first place this council gives wide-ranging general attention to the marketing of the forestry industry as a whole. In the second place, the possible utilization of forest biomass as an energy source is being accorded high priority by the council. In this specific year the sum of R143 000 was spent on research in this connection. In the third place, various other research projects were financed, to an aggregate amount of R144 840. A further R104 000 was voted for the Wattle Research Institute. I gather that this is an annual contribution by the council to the institute. In addition, the comprehensive training programme of the council provides an excellent service to the industry and an amount of R224 000—in this particular financial year—was spent on this. The latest information at my disposal is that the council finances the timber industry manpower services by R0,5 million. This training is aimed particularly at the labour force in the industry. In addition, it is financing a forestry engineering and technology faculty at Stellenbosch. There is also a study grant for a B.Sc. degree in forestry that is financed by the council. During that year a national diploma course in timber technology at the Pretoria Technikon was also envisaged, and I have been informed that this course ia already a reality. In addition, R114 000 was spent on general publicity. The council also makes a partial contribution to a course offered by the Durban Technikon to train paper technicians.

These facts emphasize the wide scope of activities of this Forestry Council and its importance.

I also want to point out how this levy has increased over the years. In 1973 it was 5,5 cents per cubic metre; in 1975, 8 cents per cubic metre; in 1978, 15 cents per cubic metre, and in 1983, 20 cents per cubic metre.

I think we have now given adequate attention to the importance of this council and its activities. We on this side of the House take pleasure in supporting this amendment.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Humansdorp represents a region which makes a very important contribution to the forestry industry in South Africa. I therefore greatly enjoyed his speech about an industry he knows well. We have no fault to find with what he said.

The CP considers the forestry industry to be one of the very important industries in South Africa. Timber is an essential commodity that is needed in the development of South Africa. Funds are important and necessary for research and for the expansion of this industry. In 1973, 10 years ago, a levy was imposed on domestic and imported timber, which was not to exceed 20 cents per cubic metre. The Bill before us provides that this levy is no longer fixed, but that the Minister may determine the levy after consultation with interested parties. The hon. the Minister himself moved an amendment fixing the levy at 30 cents per cubic metre, and we have no fault to find with that. The levy goes to the Forestry Council and it is used for research to improve forestry, to improve the training of manpower in the industry and to improve the forestry industry as such. Funds are therefore utilized for the benefit of and are ploughed back into the forestry industry. If South Africa wishes to be self-sufficient by the end of the century, 39 000 ha of new plantations will have to be established annually. According to information we obtained, the present size of plantations established by both the State and private entrepreneurs is approximately 10 000 ha. This falls far short of the requirements which have to be met in order to be self-sufficient by the year 2000.

This is a very good Bill. It is completely in the interests of the forestry industry, and for that reason the CP takes pleasure in supporting it.

Mr. Speaker, I wish to associate myself with the remarks made by previous speakers. We in these benches will be supporting this Bill. As we see it, it is a measure which is deserving of our support. There are, however, one or two comments I should like to make in this regard, and in particular in respect of the Fund itself.

We accept that it is necessary that the levy to the Fund be increased, and that it should be increased to the maximum of 30 cents in the round. It is clear that a large portion of this levy Fund finds its way back to organizations connected with the industry, and it is interesting to note how the anticipated expenditure of this amount will be made up. Some 42% of the levy contribution will be directed towards research in the private sector. Some 34% will be used for training and education, 12% for economic and costing surveys, and 7% for extension services, while 5% will go towards timber promotion.

I wish to deal with each one of these briefly in turn. First of all I wish to deal with research. It is of paramount importance that research, into the various ways in which wood and products from wood are utilized, be monitored so that the timber industry can meet the competition with which the paper and pulp industries are being forced to contend, not forgetting the fact that there is now considerable competition from the plastics industry, which in many cases is cutting across the market of the timber industry. The paper milling industry and processes connected with it require regular research in order to update consumer requirements.

It is also necessary that funds be made available at regular intervals to universities and such organizations as the Wattle Research Institute.

With regard to training and education in the agricultural sectors to which this is applicable, I would imagine that this is one of the most important facets. Modern mechanical techniques associated with timber felling, and the whole aspect of timber handling and production require the services of well trained personnel who operate sophisticated machinery. This is necessary, not only from the point of view of the maintenance of the machinery, but also in the light of the significance of the safety factor required in the operation of these machines.

With regard to the economics and costing of the timber industry, I wish to emphasize that the days of slapdash costing and accounting are over. Sophisticated methods are required for accounting if the effects of inflation are to be contained. It is here that financial contributions to economic and costing enterprises is of such tremendous importance. It is quite clear also that the trends within the industry must be monitored at all times. One gathers from reports that the forestry industry is heading for a shortage in the long term. I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister to give very serious attention to this problem. Whereas the basic requirements of afforestation amount to approximately 40 000 ha per annum, reports indicate that over recent years this figure has fallen to 10 000 ha per annum. From this it will be quite obvious that the timber requirements of this country will have to be met from outside the country if the trend continues. As I said before, I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister, as a matter of urgency, to conduct an investigation in order to ensure that the long-term prospects of the industry are brought to light so as to establish the necessary steps that will have to be taken to encourage the establishment of afforestation in order to meet the future requirements of the country within the next four to five years. This will be the time when the possibility of a shortage is going to rear its head. Unless steps are taken now to ensure that the necessary incentives are there to encourage growers to continue with the propagation of afforestation, I can only see ourselves heading for a very serious situation as far as the future timber requirements of this country are concerned.

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. members for Kuruman and Mooi River for their support for this Bill. I agree with the hon. member for Mooi River that more forest plantations should be established, but I consider this to be chiefly the responsibility of the private sector.

All previous speakers praised the activities of the Forestry Council and what it was doing for this very important industry. I think it would be a good idea just to remind ourselves that the section now being amended was introduced 10 years ago, which just happened to be the year of Our Green Heritage. During that period this council has more than justified its existence because it has done very good work throughout the entire sphere of activity of this very important industry. I just want to quote a few figures in this connection. During the past 10 years from 1972 to 1982 softwood/sawtimber rose by approximately 235%, hardwood/sawtimber by 80%, softwood/pulpwood by 100% and hardwood/mining timber by approximately 240%. As I have already mentioned, the industry is extremely important. This is not a product that can become depleted, but a product that is replenished year after year. Technology is very important. We are therefore very glad that the funding of the industry is able to keep pace with the requirements of the times. For that reason it gives us great pleasure to support the legislation.

Mr. Speaker, allow me at the outset to apologize for an oversight on my part during a previous discussion. I did not congratulate the hon. member for Constantia on his election by his party as its main speaker on environment affairs. In the same breath I wish to include the hon. member for Mooi River and the hon. member for Meyerton who are their respective parties’ main speakers on environment affairs. I thought I should put this matter right. My heartiest congratulations to the hon. members and I trust that we shall enjoy a very long association which will be to the betterment of this department.

I also wish to thank the hon. members for their support of the Bill. The hon. member for Albany …

He will be back in just a second.

Unfortunately I cannot wait until he is back. I shall reply very briefly to his speech.

The hon. member made mention of the fact that I have made it easier for the official Opposition to support the Bill. I may point out that I shall come to Parliament during the course of the next session with a consolidating Forest Act. During the recess I shall endeavour to have discussions with the industry to try to obtain their full support for the Bill also as regards this levy. I still maintain—I state it very categorically here today—that we have to have carte blanche when it comes to this levy. However, I shall come back to Parliament during the next session. It is my intention to move, after the First Reading of that Bill, that it be referred to a Select Committee which I hope will be able to go in depth into the Bill and to report the Bill with unanimity.

*I really hope that the Select Committee will reach a unanimous finding about this whole matter so that we shall be able to achieve unanimity in this regard.

I should like to refer to a few additional points. I am very grateful to the hon. member for Humansdorp for his contribution. I thank the hon. member for Nelspruit as well. In both of these constituencies, of course, forestry is of vital importance. I fully appreciate this. It is true that our forestry industry—I should also like to discuss the contributions of the hon. members for Kuruman and Mooi River—is an extremely important industry in this country. Indeed, it is good to know that apart from a few exceptions, we are self-sufficient as regards supplying our need for timber. However, like those hon. members, I am concerned that due to a lack of funds as far as the State is concerned, we have fallen behind somewhat with afforestation. It is estimated that the State will have to plant approximately 8 000 hectares per annum in order to keep pace with the demand. The hon. member for Mooi River pointed that out, but I wish to repeat that at the moment we have had a drop in timber prices. This is due to several circumstances but I do not believe it is necessary to go into that now. I wish to join the hon. members in expressing my concern. We shall certainly have to give this matter in-depth consideration.

†I may mention further that the Planning Committee of the Forestry Council is inter alia attending to incentives to promote afforestation. This aspect is also enjoying the active attention of the department, which recognizes its importance. We recognize the importance of the fact that we should be self-sufficient as regards our forests. It is absolutely crucial that we should have a very good look at the whole situation. As I have said, the Forest Council is having a very good look at this whole issue.

*I think that that more or less answers all the questions. In conclusion, I just want to say that forestry is one of our fine cultures in this country. I think it is an exceptionally fine culture. It is interesting to note that the Directorate of Forestry was one of the first conservation departments in this country. This department succeeded in preserving the indigenous forest species of our country.

†I do not want to repeat what I have said in reply to a question when I pronounced the word “indigenous” wrongly. How on earth this could have happened, I would not know. I want to correct it today by pronouncing it correctly.

*The Directorate of Forestry was one of the first departments to be a conservation department. It was thanks to this directorate that those of our indigenous forest species which still remained at that stage were preserved for our country. I think that this is something very praiseworthy indeed, and we must really be grateful to them in that regard. The Directorate of Forestry is a fine section of my department and I should like to pay tribute to them. I also wish to convey my sincere thanks to hon. members for their support for this measure.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Committee Stage

Clause 1:

Mr. Chairman, I move the amendment printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows—

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Title:

Mr. Chairman, I move the amendment printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows—

Amendment agreed to.

Title, as amended, agreed to.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

Section 3 of the Environment Conservation Act, 1982, at present makes provision for the Council for the Environment, established by section 2 of that Act, to consist of 20 members, of whom 16 shall be persons appointed by the Minister of Environment Affairs and Fisheries by virtue of their knowledge of any aspect of the environment or who, on the opinion of the Minister, are able to make a substantial contribution towards the conservation of the environment. The remaining four members are appointed by the Administrators of the provinces.

†Bearing in mind the numerous facets of environmental conservation, the need to broaden the representation on the council was immediately felt shortly after the council was appointed.

The filling of the vacancies to be created by this Bill will be approached with the greatest circumspection. The desirability of the appointment of members of other race groups will be borne in mind, but always against the background of the qualification spelt out in the Act, namely that they be “experts on any aspect of the environment or persons in a position to make a substantial contribution towards the conservation of the environment”.

Mr. Speaker, let me first of all congratulate the hon. new Deputy Minister on the introduction of his first Bill in this House as Deputy Minister. Let me also say that we wish him strength in carrying out his responsibilities in terms of this portfolio. He comes into office at a time when there is a general feeling in favour of environmentalism in South Africa, a feeling that needs to be translated into legislative action. To that extent he carries the hopes and aspirations of many environmentalists on his shoulders. Despite our very wide political differences, I think it is only fair to say that he has thus far made an impression of being energetic, and in his recent activities has also shown a welcome touch of flexibility. The future will tell, however, what the results of his Ministry will be.

This Bill is very short on law, having only one short clause, but it is very long on policy. I think it is appropriate that since the new council for the environment has only recently been established, this being the first time that Parliament has had an opportunity to address itself to the council and its functioning, some time should be spent in considering this new council.

I should like to welcome the hon. the Deputy Minister’s proposal to expand the council by these extra five members. The council, as it stands, is open to being adjusted in order to achieve better balance in three respects. The first balance would be a better racial balance. From the 19 members appointed out of the previously authorized 20, all 19 have been from the White race group, and to the extent that the extra appointments could include members of other races, we on this side of the House will certainly welcome that development. It is absolutely vital, for the future of environmentalism in South Africa, that it be given the broadest possible base comprising all cultural and ethnic groups of South Africa. If the Council is going to have long-term credibility, it must have this spread built into it.

Secondly, reference has been made to the need for maintaining the proper balance between the private sector and the public sector in the membership of the Council. Let me therefore welcome the happy balance, in the present membership of the council, between the private sector, which seems to have a majority, and representatives of the Government sector. I think that is correct, because the Council envisages experts from the public advising the Government, and I hope that the further appointments will not shift that balance the other way.

The third aspect of balance in the council that needs to be mentioned relates to the greater possibility of achieving a disciplinary balance with these further appointments. There are so many aspects to environmentalism that to cover all the aspects, with the membership of this council, would probably not be possible. The opportunity for establishing subcommittees would have to be looked at in this regard, and it would therefore be interesting to know what the Government’s intentions are with regard to the establishment and to the chairmanships of the subcommittees of the council. Will the chairmen necessarily have to be members of the main council, or can they be drawn from outside of the council? That would certainly give wider scope in making the extra five appointments and in establishing the subcommittees of the council.

There is another general plea I should like to make. It is important that I should make it now before the council gets into full swing. My plea is that the council should be given teeth. There is a danger that it is going to turn into a paper tiger if it is not given the necessary support in terms of finance and personnel. At the moment there appears to be no clear-cut vote of funds to enable the council to carry out its work.

As regards the question of personnel; if one looks at the personnel actually available to the council to carry out its functions, one sees that the department as a whole has authorized posts totalling 3 447. According to a reply given to a question on the Question Paper last month, only 27 of these posts apply to environment conservation and of those four are vacant. It is my contention that, this being less than 1% of the total number of posts in the whole department, this is an inadequate number of people properly to service the council if it is to achieve anything worthwhile in the field of environment conservation. The majority of these council members have other careers and are voluntary members. They intend to meet perhaps four times a year. The hon. the Minister can perhaps clarify whether they are going to meet more often than that. As I understand it, it is to be once a quarter. At the very least they will need a full-time director who can carry out the decisions and recommendations they make. The council needs researchers and one officer per subcommittee at least if it is to be effective. I hope some clarification of this will be forthcoming.

I should also like to take this opportunity to suggest an action plan for this council. The council has a marvellous opportunity to develop environmentalism in this country if it is tackled in the proper way. It seems to me that one of its prime responsibilities must be to investigate and make recommendations on the rationalization of existing legislation. At present our statutes are littered with odd bits and pieces of environmental legislation. Just to give one example, let me refer to legislation regarding water. At present the control of water supplies, water usage, water pollution, nature conservation in catchment areas and State land covered by water are matters covered by five different Government departments plus provincial administrations, local authorities and various statutory bodies. The 1980 White Paper calls for the promotion of co-ordinated Government attention to environmental matters, but effective co-ordination can only be achieved if these legislative strands are brought together to give this department the environmental tools of the trade. I happen to believe that this country needs an agency to be developed along the lines of the Environmental Protection Agency in the USA, but we can talk further about that at a later stage.

A second major initiative I believe this council should be asked to undertake is to develop legislation for solid-waste control and noise pollution. These are two areas in respect of which no satisfactory laws exist at present.

Thirdly, there should be legislation to provide for environmental impact studies. There is a great deal that can be said about this. However, as this is probably not the appropriate time to go into this in detail, let me leave it there. One of the most important tasks the council could undertake is to develop regulations for environmental impact studies.

Fourthly, it could survey the quality status of South Africa’s air and water resources and make recommendations where necessary. There are many pollutants we are aware of but do not properly monitor in this country and in respect of which proper standards for the various industries to follow have not been laid down.

In the fifth place we should survey the conservation status of South Africa’s flora and fauna and recommend appropriate action where necessary. There are a great number of voluntary bodies which do this very well, but these strands need to be brought together by the Government and this matter must be acted upon. I believe that we need a national resources register in terms of which we can operate. I know that some work has been done in this regard, but let us take it to its conclusion. This council is a useful vehicle to do that.

A sixth point in the 10-point action plan is to recommend a programme for land acquisition with a view to the proper conservation of the different ecosystems making up the 70 veld types of the Republic. With regard to the question of land acquisition and the expansion of conservation areas, may I say in passing that at a time when the Government has been paying lip-service to the expansion of our national parks—we had a debate here this week in which the whole House agreed on the pressing need to expand the parks—it comes as a severe shock to conservationists to discover that it is proposed that a major part of the southern Cape is now to be set aside for some military purpose. I should like to ask the hon. the Deputy Minister in charge of environmental matters whether he was consulted before this proposal came to fight. If he was not, it shows a degree of contempt for the department which is charged with the protection of the environment.

A seventh leg of the action plan which I envisage for this council is to develop a relevant body of environmental statistics. The United Nations has done a great deal in this regard, they have developed standards, and we must plug in to that. We must develop the necessary mechanisms regularly to take statistics in the field of the environment.

Eighthly, we must review environmental education and the attendant publicity programmes. This council can do that too.

Ninthly, we can review the financial and economic carrot-and-stick policies which the Government could employ to promote good environmental policies.

The tenth and last point is that we could review co-operation and co-ordination of sound environmental practice throughout Southern Africa with the other independent countries and territories.

A final point which embraces all these points and which I believe concerns an important task that should be given to this council is to call for the publication of a substantive annual report on the state of the South African environment. I was interested to see, when I visited the United States last year, that the Council for Environment Quality in the United States, which reports directly to the President of the United States, publishes an annual report which is a most substantive and useful document covering all aspects of the environment in the United States of America. I think the discipline of having to produce such a report would in itself be a step forward for this country.

I believe that this council and South Africa are faced with an exciting and challenging potential in the field of the environment. The question remains, however, whether this council, even with five extra members, will be given the necessary support, finance and legislative tools of the trade to fulfil its potential. This council must not become a paper tiger.

Mr. Speaker…

Order! Before I call upon the hon. member to speak, I just wish to point out to hon. members that the proposed amendment deals only with one factor, and that is to increase the membership of the council. It has nothing to do with the general functions of the council. I have been extremely accommodating towards the hon. member for Constantia and am prepared to continue to be accommodating, but the Bill before this House at present only makes provision for the one point.

Mr. Speaker, I naturally abide by your ruling. It really surprises me that the hon. member for Constantia did not avail himself of the opportunity this afternoon to stage a protest here concerning Koeberg by suggesting, for example, that the council should provide for an expert in the field of nuclear power, and particularly in the field of dealing with nuclear waste and the effect it might have on the environment. He allowed a golden opportunity to pass, since outside this House he is usually making inflammatory speeches in this regard. He is also continually engaged in protests in this regard. It is my considered opinion that the hon. member, as he sits there, had a great deal to do with the recent bomb explosion at Koeberg.

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order: Ought you not rule that allegation which the hon. member has just made completely out of order? [Interjections.]

Order! I call upon the hon. member Dr. Odendaal to withdraw that statement.

Mr. Speaker, if that is your ruling, I withdraw it. However, I should like to explain … [Interjections.] Please just allow me to explain. I was by no means implying that the hon. member for Constantia had anything to do with the planning or execution of that bomb explosion at Koeberg. However, what I do wish to say, is that by his attitude he created a certain climate for the people involved … [Interjections.]

Order! I call upon the hon. member to withdraw the implication of his statement.

Mr. Speaker, I withdraw the implication of my statement.

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order: The hon. member ought to withdraw that allegation unconditionally.

Mr. Speaker, I unconditionally withdraw the statement that the hon. member for Constantia had anything to do with the bomb explosion at Koeberg. However, what the hon. member for Constantia is in the process of doing both within and outside this House—and I reiterate that I am surprised that he did not again avail himself of this opportunity this afternoon—is to create an emotional climate in which the attention of the public is concentrated on this situation to the extent that the ANC, which was probably responsible for that bomb explosion, seized the opportunity to … [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member Dr. Odendaal must confine himself to the Bill now.

Mr. Speaker, I shall certainly abide by your ruling. [Interjections.]

The increase in the membership of the Council for the Environment from 20 to 25 has absolutely nothing to do with the principles of communication one finds within the group context. The principles of communication of group dynamics prescribe that the ideal number of members of every committee, meeting, council or whatever, ought to be five. The number five ensures the maximum contribution, maximum participation, by all the members, as well as that a decision will always be reached. It also ensures that the chairman does not have to cast a deciding vote in that situation. However, this is not relevant at all in the present case. The issue here is that all parties concerned with the environment will, as far as possible, be represented on this council. It has also been shown that the number of 20 members, as provided in the previous legislation, was insufficient to ensure that all interested parties would be represented. Therefore I hope that the increase in the membership will also make it possible for the hon. the Minister to appoint to this council an expert member or members who will contribute to the expertise of this council with regard to the marine environment.

Of course, it surprises me once again that the hon. member for Constantia did not refer to the matter with regard to the pelagic fishing resources. It is customary for him to use situations of this nature to exploit that kind of issue. Of course, the hon. member for Constantia argues in favour of this industry when he speaks about the issue concerning pelagic fishing resources. However, the next moment he alters his entire approach and agitates about the kaolin mine here in the Cape Peninsula, and how it affects the environment. I find that kind of ambivalence incomprehensible. I do not doubt that the hon. member is an environmentalist. However, the fact of the matter is that he argues about these matters for a variety of reasons, usually quite emotional ones.

What has that got to do with the Bill?

It has absolutely everything to do with the Bill. [Interjections.]

*Mr. Speaker, it is essential for the number of members of the council to be increased to 25, so that as far as possible all interest groups may be represented here.

It is also important—and in this respect I agree with the hon. member for Constantia—that members of all population groups should be able to serve on this council in order to make a contribution. This is extremely important, since we as Whites ought not to bear the responsibility for the conservation of the environment in this country alone. Other population groups will have to accept co-responsibility for this as well.

Of course, this at once brings me to the hon. member for Kuruman. The hon. member for Kuruman was chairman of the commission which made certain recommendations, and he absolutely insisted that there should be a provision—this is in the report— that members of all population groups be considered for appointment to the council.

That is untrue. [Interjections.]

As chairman, he absolutely insisted on it. However, he and other members of his party are well-known for not being very fond of responsibility. That is why they broke away from the NP. When they had to take responsibility for South Africa, they broke away. We speak about co-responsibility and we speak about responsibility in respect of the environment. [Interjections.] Once a member of another population group may be appointed to this House, the hon. member will probably object most strongly, since that is the policy of his party. After all, his party does not stand for co-responsibility. He prefers the word “powersharing”. This is the word he usually uses in this regard. However, “co-responsibility” is a more positive word and that is why he does not like it. Co-responsibility means that one accepts co-responsibility jointly in respect of environmental matters. I should like him to spell out his party’s policy here in respect of this matter. When he had to accept the responsibility as far as South Africa’s future was concerned, he ran away from it. I hope he will not run away now from the responsibility which rests on him. [Interjections.]

I also hope that the increase in the membership of the Council for the Environment from 20 to 25 will afford the hon. the Minister the opportunity of appointing persons who will increase the level of expertise of the council, particularly in respect of its educational task. Here again I agree with the hon. member for Constantia. I think this Council for the Environment has a tremendous educational task. As far as the Government is concerned it has an advisory task, but in respect of the educational task we have as far as environmental conservation is concerned, I think this Council ought to perform an extremely important role. The issue here is the mental attitude of our people towards the environment. This is the issue. It is a matter of the mental attitude of all people, adults, White and Coloured, and—very important too—the children. Since we are speaking about the youth, I just wish to say that the whole idea of schools in the wild, which are used on a large scale in South Africa today, afford an excellent opportunity to involve the youth and to make them aware of the necessity of environmental conservation. I take great pleasure in supporting this Bill.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member Dr. Odendaal made a personal attack here on the hon. member for Constantia. He also tried to make a personal attack on me. During the course of my speech, I should very much like to come back to the things the hon. member Dr. Odendaal said. I find it very interesting that the NP Whips did not appoint one of the members of the commission to discuss this Bill. I find it astonishing that they assigned an hon. member like Dr. Odendaal to discuss this legislation here with what were to a great extent personal attacks.

A person who knows nothing about the matter.

Yes. The hon. member made personal attacks here and tried to make political capital out of the issue. I shall give that hon. member my replies, and I want to tell him that this party does not give one reply in this House and another at home meetings. [Interjections.]

I should like to congratulate the hon. Deputy Minister on behalf of this side of the House on the introduction of his first Bill. I should also like to say that the hon. the Minister of Environment Affairs and Fisheries, who has over the years been an agricultural leader, has become renowned for being a person who is conservation conscious. I have personal knowledge of how he has worked hard over the years for soil conservation in South Africa for example. We on this side of the House are confident, when it comes to the conservation of the environment in South Africa, that the hon. the Minister and the hon. the Deputy Minister, with the attitude they have displayed over the years, will also be able to make a success of environmental conservation in South Africa. In this regard, I wish to congratulate the hon. the Minister, and I also wish to congratulate the hon. the Deputy Minister on the introduction of his first Bill. The hon. the Minister and the hon. the Deputy Minister have a very important task on their shoulders as far as this matter is concerned, and we wish to promise them our support when positive steps in connection with this matter are taken.

On behalf of this side of the House I should also like to congratulate Prof. Roelf Botha on his appointment as chairman of the Council for the Environment, and also the other 19 members of that council appointed by the hon. the Minister. It astonished me that the first speaker on the NP side rose to his feet and did not even congratulate Prof. Roelf Botha and his council on their appointment. [Interjections.] The hon. member Dr. Odendaal is so full of venom that he cannot think of the nice things which one person can do for another. I want to congratulate Prof. Roelf Botha and his council very sincerely. We want to tell them that the Council for the Environment has a very important task on their shoulders, and we wish them everything of the best in carrying out the task which has been entrusted to them.

I find it very interesting that when some hon. members on the NP side spoke about the Forestry Council during the debate on the Forestry Amendment Bill, a council which was established 10 years ago, they praised the council for the wonderful work it had done. However, the Forestry Council has never been changed or enlarged for 10 years. The Council for the Environment held its first meeting on the 8th of March, but before holding its first meeting a Bill was submitted which provided that the council should be enlarged. It astonishes me that the hon. the Minister wishes to enlarge the council. The number of members which should comprise the council was discussed very thoroughly with the commission at the time. As far as I know, it was only the hon. member for Maitland who at that stage made strenuous efforts to have the membership of the council increased. It is my opinion that the council should not be too large and too clumsy. That was also the opinion of the commission at the time. [Interjections.] It is also interesting that the hon. member Dr. Odendaal spoke here about group dynamics and the principle of communication and said that five members constituted the ideal council. Then he suddenly sprang round and said that it was better that a council of 20 members should be enlarged by five. There was little logic in the hon. member’s argument. [Interjections.]

In the opinion of the commission, the council should not be too large and clumsy. A smaller council can function far more effectively and at considerably lower cost. The cost in connection with convening a larger council should be given very careful consideration. Travelling expenses, board and lodging, daily compensation for the members, more extensive meeting facilities and greater administrative costs should all be taken into consideration. The council is now being made 25% larger; that means that the costs of the council will also be 25% more.

We must think of the times in which we are living. I read in yesterday’s Vaderland that White women were having to scrub floors for a living. Nevertheless we find that the Government, although it has to cut back on costs, wishes to increase the membership of the Council for the Environment by 25%, something which will mean that the costs of the council will increase by 25%. Here there is an opportunity for the State to save.

It could be argued that the council has to be increased in size so that it will be possible to appoint more experts to the council. I come back to the hon. member Dr. Odendaal who referred to marine experts and educationists. However, I wish to point out to the hon. member that the commission recommended at the time—this was also written into the principal Act—that expert committees could be appointed. It is specifically provided that an educational committee shall be appointed, but the hon. member proposed that an educationist should be appointed to the council.

It may be argued that the council should be increased in size so that more experts could be appointed to it. I wish to make the assertion that it is not possible to appoint all experts and all interested persons and organizations to the council. In that case the council would have to be made much larger.

Mr. Speaker, if further members were appointed to the council, would the hon. member be satisfied if a Coloured person were appointed to the council as an expert?

The hon. member for Kroonstad has Coloured people and Indians on the brain. That hon. member who is arguing with so much fondness that Coloureds should be appointed to the council…

Answer the question.

I shall reply to the question in the course of my speech. However, I wish to ask the hon. member whether he will allow an Indian member of the Council for the Environment to remain in the Free State for longer than 24 hours. [Interjections.] Sir, I have said that it is not possible for all experts and interested parties to be appointed to the council, for then the council would have to consist of far more than 25 members. There are hundreds, thousands of experts in South Africa, who are doing and are able to do excellent work in respect of environmental conservation. There are wonderful organizations, organizations with inspired office-bearers who deal with environmental strategies every day. This council which is to be appointed has to make it its task to encourage and assist the people in carrying out and supporting conservation strategies. The task of the Council for the Environment is to co-ordinate and utilize these skilled and inspired people and organizations. It is not necessary to enlarge the council in order to do this.

If more experts have to be placed at the disposal of the council, the legislation makes provision for the appointment of expert committees. I therefore recommend that the council appoints some of these experts, these inspired people, to its committees where they can make a substantial contribution to environmental conservation in South Africa.

The hon. the Prime Minister appoints 20 Ministers to govern the entire country. That is why I think 20 members are enough to serve on the Council for the Environment and to plan and promote environmental conservation in South Africa.

The agricultural control boards established in terms of the Marketing Act have been drastically reduced in size in the recent past. Hon. members need only ask the hon. Minister of Environment Affairs and Fisheries, because he was formerly Deputy Minister of Agriculture. If I remember correctly, the Medical Council was reduced by 11 members in 1974. If one considers the motivation for reducing the size of these boards and councils, one sees that it was argued every time that the larger, clumsier boards, or councils had to be replaced by smaller, but more effective boards or councils which could function at a far lower cost.

The hon. the Prime Minister began to rationalize the Public Service in order to make it streamlined and more effective. As a result of the manpower shortage in South Africa the Government has to ensure that the maximum amount of work is done with the minimum amount of manpower. But the Council for the Environment has to be enlarged!

This side of the House cannot give its sanction to the Second Reading of this Bill, and I should like to request the hon. the Deputy Minister to withdraw the Bill. If 20 Ministers can govern the country, 20 members can ensure that the Council for the Environment functions effectively.

In the present economic climate the costs involved in a 25% increase in the membership of the Council must be saved. I want to tell the hon. the Deputy Minister that it is the wish of this side of the House that the Council for the Environment should do the maximum amount of work for the conservation of the environment in South Africa with the minimum amount of manpower. That council can perform the important task of keeping South Africa neat and clean and of promoting conservation with the minimum of manpower. We have confidence in the council as it is constituted at present.

However, I should like to put a question to the hon. the Deputy Minister. Is the hon. the Minister still looking for knowledgeable Coloureds, Indians or Blacks to appoint to the council?

He has them.

I am putting the question to the hon. the Deputy Minister, and I should like him to reply to me. [Interjections.] May I have the attention of the hon. the Deputy Minister? Is the hon. the Deputy Minister still looking for knowledgeable Coloureds, Indians or Blacks to appoint to the council? [Interjections.]

Just carry on. I shall reply later.

Cannot the hon. the Deputy Minister reply to me now? It would help me. [Interjections.] Is the hon. the Deputy Minister negotiating with people of colour whom he wants to appoint to the council? [Interjections.]

[Inaudible.]

I am not talking to the hon. the Minister of Community Development. [Interjections.] He is sitting so close to the hon. the Deputy Minister of Environment Conservation and Fisheries and is shouting him down to such an extent that one can neither see nor hear him. [Interjections.] Are negotiations in progress between the hon. the Deputy Minister …

Did you recommend any Coloureds?

The hon. the Minister of Community Development was not in this House from the beginning of this debate. He has only just come in. He did not listen to the arguments, and now he is making such a noise here that I cannot speak to the hon. the Minister of Environment Affairs and Fisheries. [Interjections.] I want to ask the hon. the Deputy Minister whether he is negotiating with Coloureds. He is as silent as the grave, but that hon. Deputy Minister who is so silent now, was one of the members who did not even want to allow the hon. member for Hillbrow and the hon. member for Yeoville into certain organizations of which he was a member.

At the time he appointed only Whites to the Council for the Environment. The hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs let the cat out of the bag when he said the other day that the hon. the Deputy Minister of Environment Affairs was looking for expert people of colour to appoint to the council on merit. Consequently the Minister of Transport Affairs has already furnished the answer. He also said that the Minister of Environment Affairs was still negotiating in connection with the appointment of suitable people of colour. The hon. the Deputy Minister says absolutely nothing. If what the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs said is true, it is in my opinion contempt of this Parliament that the hon. the Deputy Minister is already negotiating with people before the legislation has been dealt with here. [Interjections.] If the hon. the Minister is not negotiating with people of colour, then the Minister of Transport Affairs told an untruth. The hon. members of the NP are exploiting the fact that I was chairman of the Commission for Environmental Conservation which inter alia recommended that it should also be possible to appoint members of other population groups to the Council for the Environment.

People of colour.

That is what was said. I know I did it. [Interjections.] The hon. members of the NP are exploiting this. [Interjections.] The hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs exploited it in this House the other day. [Interjections.] The hon. member for Kimberley South exploited it in this House. Those hon. members are so quick to say that we made an about-face. The hon. the Minister of National Education said today that members of the CP were people who had made an about-face. However, that hon. Minister is the person who said in the time of Mr. John Vorster that the Coloureds were a nation-in-the-making, but now he says, together with Mr. P. W. Botha, that the Coloureds are not a nation-in-the-making, but part of the South African nation.

Mr. Speaker, may I put a question to the hon. member?

No. My time is too limited. [Interjections.] The other day the hon. the Minister of Internal Affairs said, according to Die Transvaler of 14 March—

[Interjections.] That was said by the hon. the hon. the Minister whose birthday it is today. [Interjections.] They accuse us of making an about-face. During the no-confidence debate, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition asked the Government party: “Is there going to be power-sharing in the new dispensation, yes or no?” Then the hon. the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning said that the answer was yes.

This is also stated in that report.

The hon. the Minister of Internal Affairs joined him in saying yes.

You are quoting selectively. If you read the whole report, you will see that I also said it. Read the whole report.

Mr. Speaker …

Order! This Bill has nothing whatsoever to do with what the hon. member wishes to continue speaking, he must confine himself to the Bill.

Sir, the Bill makes provision for the enlargement of the council. The hon. the Deputy Minister said that the council should be enlarged to make provision inter alia for the appointment of people of colour who are experts. The accusation from that side of the House, levelled at me as chairman of the commission at the time, was that I had allegedly made an about-face. Now I just want to prove, Sir, that the Government party is the party that made an about-face.

Order! With all respect, I wish to say that this cannot take the hon. member’s discussion of this Bill any further. He must come back to the Bill.

Sir, the Bill is concerned with the enlargement of the council and it also makes provision for the possible appointment of people of colour. Since you gave the PFP the opportunity, during this Second Reading stage, to cover a very wide field, I hope that you will also allow the CP an opportunity to state its standpoint in this regard. I am asking this courteously, Sir.

I shall give the hon. member all the time at his disposal if he wishes to discuss the merits of the appointment of people of colour, but I am not going to allow the issue of making an about-face to be discussed any further.

Mr. Speaker, I think I have proved sufficiently in what respect the Government party did in fact make an about-face.

Under what circumstances did we agree to the appointment of coloured persons to boards and councils and also to the Council for the Environment? The Council for the Environment advises the Minister and the Minister is a Minister of this White parliament. All legislation in respect of environmental conservation is dealt with in this White Parliament. The Minister, who appoints the Council for the Environment, will under the present dispensation always be a White person, a representative of the White voters of South Africa. The Minister who appoints the Council for the Environment will always be accountable to the White Parliament. The recommendation was made under a dispensation in which the NP rejected power-sharing and a multiracial government. The Government party is now pointing out that coloured persons are being appointed to the National Housing Commission, the Group Areas Board and other boards and councils and are using this as an argument to convince people that it is right to appoint Coloureds and Indians to the Cabinet as well. Because coloured persons are now being appointed to boards and councils …

Who wrote that speech?

I wrote it myself. That hon. Minister must still tell us whether he was telling the truth in respect of the Deputy Minister of Environment Affairs.

Does the hon. member wish to insinuate that I was lying? [Interjections.]

Order!

With all due respect, Sir, the hon. the Minister will still have to prove that he was not doing so. Because coloured persons have been appointed to boards and councils, members of the Government party accept that coloured persons should become an integral part of a multiracial tricameral Parliament and should be appointed as Ministers in a multiracial Cabinet.

But Jan, we reached a decision about that together.

Now the hon. member for Roodeplaat is saying that we reached a decision on this matter together. We did reach a decision on this matter together, but at that stage that hon. member and his party still rejected power-sharing and a mixed government. I am now indicating why we do not agree with him. [Interjections.] I want to make it very clear that this party rejects a mixed government in a unitary State. This party rejects the principle of one nation of Whites, Coloureds and Indians with one territory and one government, which is multiracial. In the new dispensation …

Order! We are not dealing with a new dispensation of any nature now or with what the Government is going to look like. We are dealing with a Bill and the hon. member must confine himself to that, otherwise I shall have to ask him to resume his seat.

Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, when we began to argue about the appointment of this council, about the enlargement of the council …

I have given my ruling and the hon. member shall therefore not, under this legislation, discuss a new dispensation any further.

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order: The position in regard to this matter is that the Government Party accuses the CP of having formerly been in favour of there being coloured representatives on this Council for the Environment as well. Now those hon. members are alleging that we no longer advocate this. The hon. member for Kuruman is explaining to the House why this is the case. In order to bring home that argument, he must explain that the reason why we are not in favour of Coloureds and Indians coming onto the council is because it is now going to become a common department and because it is going to be a common department in terms of the Government’s policy of power-sharing. That is why the hon. member for Kuruman is adopting this attitude. Mr. Speaker, I consequently wish to ask you kindly to allow him to continue.

I shall allow the hon. member to go as far as I consider to be with in the bounds of this legislation, but I am not going to allow any constitutional dispensation to be discussed under this legislation.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I should very much like to accept your ruling. However, an attack was made on me because we were allegedly responsible for the legislation which is before the House, and for the council now being enlarged from 20 members to 25. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon. members must now give the hon. member an opportunity to complete his speech and state his standpoint.

The council is being enlarged by five members to provide inter alia for the appointment of coloured persons. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask you very courteously, since this party has to state its standpoint on this cardinal matter, to give me an opportunity …

Order! I have already given my ruling and I accept that the hon. member will remain within the bounds of that ruling.

Just as the hon. the Minister of Environment Affairs and Fisheries can appoint 20 Whites to this council, so too can a future Minister, And, as I have already said before, in a new dispensation such a Minister could be a Coloured or an Indian and he could appoint 20 Coloureds or Indians. The mere possibility that such a situation could arise on this Council for the Environment, as well as on the enlarged council, makes it unacceptable to this party. This party was established after the NP, the Government party, made a policy change and accepted power-sharing and a multiracial government. Multiracial boards and councils as part of multiracial government are unacceptable to this party. This party maintains that the various peoples in South Africa should each govern themselves in their own territories, that the various peoples should also have their own boards and councils … [Interjections.]

KwaZulu, which is a self-governing Black nation, and which became this under the policy of the governing party and consists of ten different territories, also has its own council for the environment. If Bophuthatswana has a council for the environment, it can, in my opinion, negotiate with the Council for the Environment of the Republic of South Africa. Every national government should have its own council and consequently its own council for the environment. This party maintains that the Black, Coloured and Indian residential areas which fall within the jurisdiction of this department, will be subject to the legislation of this Parliament, and will consequently fall within the jurisdiction of this Council for the Environment which is being appointed. For this reason this party rejects the establishment of multiracial councils, whatever their task may be, multiracial councils which are being used as a wedge today to bring about a multiracial Government and integration in South Africa.

The legislation deals basically with the enlargement of the council. Once again I wish to request the hon. the Deputy Minister to withdraw this legislation because, if 20 ministers are able to govern this country, 20 members are sufficient for the Council of the Environment.

Mr. Speaker, I should just like to know from the hon. member for Kuruman whether the commission did not decide that people of colour could serve as members of the council. Did they not decide that this was possible within the framework of a membership of 20?

Mr. Speaker, in reply to the hon. member’s question, I can only say that the commission did in fact recommend that people of colour could in fact be considered for appointment to a council of 20 members. I have been trying for almost ten minutes now to make those hon. members understand why this party, after the NP changed its policy and accepted power-sharing and a mixed Government, is not prepared to accept mixed boards and councils and a multiracial government in South Africa. [Interjections.]

Order!

Mr. Speaker, may I put a question to the hon. member?

Mr. Speaker, I am not prepared to reply to any further questions. [Interjections.]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order: May an hon. member say that another hon. member is afraid?

Order! Which hon. member said that the hon. member for Kuruman was afraid?

Mr. Speaker, I said it.

Mr. Speaker, I said it.

Mr. Speaker, I said it. [Interjections.]

Order! All three hon. members must withdraw that allegation.

Mr. Speaker, I withdraw it.

Mr. Speaker, I withdraw it.

Mr. Speaker, I withdraw it. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member for Kuruman may proceed.

Mr. Speaker … [Interjections.]

Order! I shall allow no further interjections whatsoever while the hon. member for Kuruman is speaking.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The point I have just tried to explain, I can apparently explain over and over again, but unfortunately I cannot give those hon. members the ability to understand it. In the present economic climate the costs in connection with a 25% increase in the membership of the council could be saved. Once again I say that it is the desire of this side of the House that the Council for the Environment should perform the maximum amount of work with the minimum amount of manpower in the interests of the conservation of the environment in South Africa, something which is very important.

Mr.

Speaker, I almost feel that I must apologize for trying to bring this debate back on the rails. The series of verbal salvoes that we have witnessed from the last two hon. members who have spoken, makes one realize that one must always be beware the unexpected. We are sitting here with an innocent looking piece of legislation before us, and who would have believed that we would find ourselves in the midst of such hysterical verbosity? I suppose, however, it is a case of the battle for the “berge”. I am somewhat concerned because I also come from “een van die berge”. I come from the Drakensberg. [Interjections.] I hope that we do not find that this infectious disease is going to go through all the “berge” in this country. [Interjections.]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to express my congratulations as well to the hon. the Deputy Minister on his appointment to his new position. I would also express to him the best wishes of all of us in these benches on this the first occasion on which he is guiding a Bill through this House. I can assure the hon. the Deputy Minister that we shall endeavour to approach this debate in a very much more responsible manner than the two previous speakers.

We on these benches will support the Bill before the House. We accept the fact that there is a need for an increase in the size of the council. I was particularly surprised to hear the hon. member for Kuruman, who was chairman of the Committee of Inquiry into Environmental Legislation, stand up and condemn the increase in the size of the council in such strong terms. One wonders whether the hon. member’s convictions would still have been as strong as they are if he were still on the other side of the House.

Most definitely.

What we must realize is that the field that environment covers in this country is absolutely enormous. Every possible facet must therefore be represented on the council. We have contrasts in our environmental pattern that make it necessary for control measures to be carefully monitored. When one deals with the control of the environment, one realizes that this can only be done with the co-operation of the public and on a decentralized basis. Public awareness must be encouraged at every possible opportunity. As far as the environment is concerned, we are handling an asset that we do not own. We simply have the use of it, but it belongs to posterity. We must remember that this country is blessed with a surfeit of environmental assets. We must also realize, however, that we do have problems in regard to the preservation of the environment in this country. Here again, one of the reasons why we are supporting the increase of members of the council is that we feel that particular emphasis must be placed upon, and particular attention given to, the question of pollution. I want to appeal to the hon. the Deputy Minister to ensure that the council be instructed to investigate the whole question of pollution in this country. One reads overseas reports in regard to such aspects as acid rain and the atmospheric pollution that is taking place in other parts of the world, such as Canada, the United States and Northern Europe where forestry reserves have already been devastated. In Canada there is the loss even now of between 2 000 and 4 000 lakes as a result of pollution. The fish and other aquatic life in these lake areas have been completely destroyed. One realizes that with increased industrial expansion in this country the task of those who are going to be entrusted with trying to control the pollution of this country is going to be enormous.

With these few words, Sir, I want to reiterate that the NRP is pleased to support this legislation.

Mr. Speaker, at the outset I had no intention of participating at all in this debate. However, a few statements have been made by various hon. members in this House which make it very necessary for us to state our case.

I should like to start off by referring to the hon. member Dr. Odendaal and to what I believe was a completely unwarranted attack which he made on the hon. member for Constantia. I am sure that everybody in this House who listened to the hon. member for Constantia today will agree that he made a very constructive and responsible speech. The hon. member’s record in this House is one which shows that the hon. member has a great concern for environmental affairs. He has shown concern about the mining of kaolin, about fisheries, about Koeberg and about many other environmental issues which affect the Western Cape. Somehow, however, the hon. member Dr. Odendaal takes exception to this. I cannot understand why.

His inconsistency is what I object to.

He has not been inconsistent anywhere that I can think of. What happens is that in the process he treads on a few toes now and again, but that is the job of the Opposition. At least the public outside know that here is somebody who is concerned, who is looking after these affairs and who is worried about what is happening to the environment.

There is another matter to which I should like to refer. I come now to the hon. member for Kuruman and a few of the points which he raised. In the first place he complained about increasing the size of the Council for the Environment by an extra five people. He seemed to think that by doing this, we shall increase the cost involved by 25%. I do not believe that such costs go up in a direct ratio as he suggested.

Travel and subsistence costs will.

He also advanced the following argument: If 20 Cabinet Ministers can run the country, why can 20 people not run this particular council? There is a slight difference.

They are experts.

The 20 Cabinet Ministers operate completely full-time while the 20 members of the council will only meet three or four times a year.

They have to meet at least once a month.

Nevertheless there is such a wide diversity and range of affairs which relate to the environment, an extra five members could easily be appointed.

I now come to another matter raised by the hon. member for Kuruman and that was the question of the racial composition of the council.

But Horace agreed with us on the 20 members. [Interjections.]

Order!

Should the subject of racial considerations be brought into environmental affairs at all? We are concerned here about the environment. What on earth have racial considerations to do with that?

Ask the Minister why he did not appoint a Coloured person in the first instance.

That is another issue. I am talking about the composition of the council right now. [Interjections.]

Something about which the hon. members should be aware is that the environment does not follow political boundaries, as the hon. members on my left would like it to do. Their policy is to draw political boundaries, to confine certain racial groups within those boundaries and leave them control and look after whatever happens within those boundaries. It is ridiculous in a political sense and it is just as ridiculous in the environmental sense.

Let us take a few examples. Let us look at the Drakensberg catchment area for example. It is controlled by three different bodies. It falls partly under kwaZulu, partly under the Natal Parks Board and partly under the Directorate of Forestry. It represents one of the most important conservation areas which we have in South Africa. Very important conservation work is being done to ensure the production of water from these areas and this work will one day determine the future development of and what happens on the Witwatersrand. Surely, it is in everybody’s interest that the people who control aspects of the conservation of this particular area should be able to get together on the same council if necessary. What we are concerned with is the Drakensberg catchment area and not whether there is a Black man, a Coloured or any other person serving on the council.

As another example rivers do not flow through one particular racial group’s area; they go from one area to the next. What happens, as far as agriculture is concerned, is that erosion in one area will affect farmers further down. What happens in one area regarding, for instance, pollution is going to affect people further down. The whole environment is therefore completely interrelated. Ecological systems and rainfall patterns affect and go across the political boundaries which hon. members in the CP would like to draw. We therefore believe that an extra five people on the council to look after the affairs of the environment of South Africa …

Would you have Blacks in this Parliament?

Of course. What a stupid question. [Interjections.]

Order!

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. member whether he is aware of the fact that there is fine co-operation between the Natal Parks Board and the Government of kwaZulu as far as nature conservation in that area is concerned?

I am completely aware of that. It just shows how necessary this is. What I am trying to find out is why these people cannot then also serve on one and the same council? They are doing the job together now, they are getting together and they have a common interest. I agree with the hon. member that it is a good thing. What is the problem preventing it from being done in the case of the Council for the Environment?

As I said earlier on, we do not believe that an extra five people on the Council for the Environment is too much of a cost for the country to bear. I am sure the hon. the Minister, in his wisdom, will wisely select who should serve on the council on the grounds of the contributions they can make to the council.

Therefore we should like to support this legislation.

Mr. Speaker, during the past hour it was very significant that two of the hon. members participating in the debate—I am referring to the hon. member for Constantia and the hon. member for Kuruman—both touched on the same aspect and that each of them wished to achieve a different goal when they did so. The hon. member for Constantia said that the five additional members, for whom provision is being made in the legislation, had to be used to bring about a better numerical ratio with regard to the races. When the hon. member for Kuruman was the chairman of the commission—he will grant me this—he had more or less the same thing in mind. The hon. member had occasion to recommend—it is in fact mentioned in the report— along with the rest of the commission that members of all population groups should be considered, with the specific aim of there being a good ratio, numerically speaking, between people of colour and Whites.

That was before the new dispensation.

The hon. member for Brakpan says that was before the new dispensation. I want to ask the hon. member a question in connection with the Council of Cabinets that was at issue in the previous dispensation.

Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the hon. member whether he still remembers that it was actually my standpoint that we should not appoint the council on the basis of colour, but that we should rather allow local authorities to have representation on the committee?

I am afraid—in all fairness—that the hon. member cannot run away from that standpoint now. I want to remind the hon. member that the hon. member for Maitland, who is not present here today, and I objected to a certain extent to this provision in the recommendation that other population groups should be considered. We said an unnecessary racial connotation was being introduced. However, the hon. member for Kuruman was one of the people—he must admit this, in all fairness—who insisted on this. [Interjections.]