Mr. Speaker, without repeating what I said last night, I think it would be fruitful to summarize a few of the points I made. In the first place I said that the rising of tariffs and loan capital both contributed to inflation. According to experts the whole Posts and Telecommunications budget would contribute approximately 0,8% to the consumer price index, while present tariff increases would probably be in the region of 0,15% or 0,16% in the short term; and 0,3% over a long period. Operating expenditure must be covered by income and cannot be covered by way of loans. If these proposed tariff increases were not introduced we could have a deficit in our operating expenditure of R113 million, which would mean a further loss on capital account of R185 million. In order to be able to combat this one would have to cut down on services, retrench staff and also cut down on capital projects.

Hon. members of the Opposition parties all felt we should spend more money, install more telephones, get more staff, even if we had to recruit them from overseas. This, however, would have the effect that we would be forced to rely more and more on loan funds.

I dealt with the question of inflation yesterday evening. I shall therefore not discuss it again now. Perhaps it would be advisable if I quoted from an article in a magazine called Feature. The executive editor of this magazine, R. J. Raggett, writes as follows—

And so he goes on. I believe it is acknowledged world-wide that a country with proper communications, a country in which the telecommunications system is up to standard, is a country in which the economy is developing rapidly.

I should like to go on now and reply to certain matters raised by hon. members during this debate. Firstly I should like to refer to the hon. member for Hillbrow, who made the same point that was also made in one of our newspapers, namely that the 14,6% increase in income I announced was misleading. I cannot understand why either the Press or the hon. member for Hillbrow should think that this is a misleading statement. It is derived from the final figure in last year’s published estimates. One takes the income that would be generated by the increase in tariffs, because one has in any case a normal increase. One therefore divides the increase in tariffs into this latter amount, and that gives one a figure of approximately 14,6%. This is the percentage increase which we really need. I believe it should not be difficult at all to conclude that this percentage is not misleading. It is actually a very reliable fact.

In my statement in which I announced the new tariff increases I also said that with a relatively low estimated self-financing ratio and the huge demand for services much larger tariff increases were fully justified. However, in order to curb inflation, I said, the increase was limited to 14,6% of the estimated revenue for the financical year 1983-’84. At no stage did I ever say that the tariff increase would be 14,6%. Indirectly, however, that is actually what it amounts to. The income produced by the increased tariffs is a 14,6% rise although, in some cases, a specific tariff has perhaps gone up by as much as 20%, in other cases by 15%, and in some cases not at all.

*The hon. member for Umlazi has already explained this matter very clearly. I have been informed that the hon. member for Overvaal is indisposed. I regret to hear that, and I wish him a speedy recovery. Both the hon. member for Overvaal and the hon. member for Umlazi explained this matter very clearly. I therefore find it difficult to understand that the hon. chief spokesman of the PFP can still think that there was any deception at all while we were discussing the increased tariffs.

†The hon. member also said we had given very little consideration to alternate financing. I listened to hon. members of the PFP all afternoon yesterday. I waited in vain for them to make any reference whatsoever to the question of alternate financing. All I heard was that we should appoint a commission. Every time the Government wants to appoint any commission we are accused by the official Opposition of hiding something or of running away from the truth. Every time, however, we give them the real facts, hon. members of the official Opposition urge us to appoint a commission. I can see no need for appointing any commission. The Post Office is run on commercial lines under excellent management. I did not hear one hon. member of the Opposition parties say that the Postmaster-General and the top executive of the Post Office were not performing their duties properly, that they were incompetent and that they were not capable of running a business of this nature, a business with a budget of R3 000 million, and a turnover of R8 000 million. We are not talking here about people who quietly sneaked into their positions and took over the affairs of the Post Office. They have been employed by the Post Office for many years. The Postmaster-General began his career in the Post Office in the days when morse code was still the vogue. In fact, when we visited a German firm last year we viewed a morse code machine in their museum. The Postmaster-General summarily gave a demonstration of the workings of that machine. The Germans could not understand that someone of his standing would know how to use a morse code machine in this modern day and age. They were quite surprised at his skilful handling of that machine.

Hon. members of the PFP want us to appoint a commission that will tell us how to ran the business of the Post Office. Certainly, such a commission should be given some idea of what to investigate. Furthermore, hon. members opposite never stop shouting for more loans. That is something I have already rejected. The business of the Post Office cannot be run mainly on loans.

The hon. member for Hillbrow also said we should have a stabilization fund. This is a matter we can investigate further. I have already had discussions with the top executive of the Post Office, and they have convinced me that it would not be practical at this stage. I should like to hear from the hon. member for Hillbrow, however, what he wants us to put into that stabilization fund, particularly if the business is ran at a loss. If I do not increase tariffs now we will soon be running the business of the Post Office at an operational loss of R113 million. Does the hon. member want me to recover that loss from such a stabilization fund? [Interjections.]

The SATS has a stabilization fund.

Well, I do now know about that. I know nothing about the SATS. I do listen to transport debates however, from time to time. We are actually discussing the affairs of the Post Office now. I can therefore not see why we should be discussing transport matters. I simply asked for some advice in connection with the possibility of such a stabilization fund.

The hon. member Dr. Marais put one thing very clearly in his speech yesterday. He is an expert on these matters, and he said that we should increase tariffs every year, even in years of economic prosperity. If we did that, I think, we would be able to introduce a stabilization fund. In fact, the hon. member for Hillbrow is on record in Hansard as also having said in previous years that one should raise tariffs each year by small amounts instead of by large amounts less frequently. That is what I have done. The tariffs were raised last year and I have raised them again this year, and now the hon. member is annoyed.

I have a better idea.

But the hon. member has not given it to us. One would have thought that the hon. member would at least have given us the benefit of some of his ideas.

The hon. member also asked when we were going to stop raising tariffs. On the other hand, as I have said, he tells us that we should raise tariffs nominally each year. I agree with him completely in this regard.

*The hon. member for Umlazi also referred to that. He said that in fact there had to be adjustments and those adjustments had to be more regular. I want to say that to this House and to the hon. member for Hillbrow. The hon. member for Overvaal, the hon. member Dr. Marais and the hon. member for Boksburg also referred to the fact that during the 1983-’84 financial year we were saddled with a burden of interest on loans of R284 million. Over the past four years we have paid interest amounting to R850 million. How can one carry on a business undertaking unless one can rather use that interest to establish appropriate new structures, instead of simply paying it out in interest? The interest we have paid in recent times is in fact almost equal to the amount of money we borrowed originally. If we had not increased the tariffs this year, the burden of interest this year would have been approximately R311 million. I cannot understand how hon. members of the Opposition can argue about this, and the hon. member for Umlazi had already referred to it.

The hon. member for Hillbrow also asked why we had only borrowed an amount of R440 million, instead of borrowing more. I simply cannot see why we should borrow more money than that. The hon. member for Nigel even said that he was not in favour of loans. I agree with him. It is not good financing, although at times it is essential.

The hon. member for Hillbrow added that we had to install more telephones. The hon. member cannot want his bread buttered on both sides. The hon. member Dr. Marais said that there would not be solvency. The hon. member used three big words—“solvency”, “profitability” and “liquidity”. It seems to me that the Post Office would not be able to keep its telephones going if they were to use those words! I take it that these words are sound words as far as financing is concerned. I just want to say to the hon. member for Hillbrow that we cannot persist in borrowing money at this rate of interest.

The hon. member also asked about the financial study group. However, the Post Office is well run. No one criticizes us on how we conduct our business enterprise. There was confusion among certain people who expressed criticism to the effect that the tariff increases were too high. However, the hon. member for Boksburg mentioned an important fact, viz. that this business belongs to the consumers. It belongs not to the taxpayer, but to the consumer. We must look after the consumer, in the sense that we must give him good service. We must expand the services for him and must ensure that he can place a call at any time to any place in the world without difficulty. I just wish to repeat that over a period of four years we have paid out an amount of R850 million in interest, and things cannot go on like this.

†The hon. member asked why we did not combine the agency service with the postal service. The reason is that the agency service is a completely separate service and, as such, must have completely separate bookkeeping. In that way we know what fees to charge the people for whom we act as agents. We cannot simply allow that money to disappear into our postal income. The income from that service has to be shown separately. However, the profit from the agency service is a credit in the estimates in respect of postal services and not in respect of telecommunications services. The hon. member will realize that it is a bookkeeping exercise, but nevertheless an important one because we have to know what we charge the various departments for whom we are the agents.

We do not intend separating postal and telecommunication services ever. It was done in England, but it turned out to be completely valueless. They now want to switch back. All other countries that I have visited keep postal and telecommunication services together. I think it is the right thing for us to do. The Post Office does a lot of work in respect of telecommuncations. One pays one’s accounts at the Post Office. The local postmaster is also in charge of the local exchange. I think we should get rid of the idea ever to separate these two services.

The hon. member wanted to know why we do not concentrate on installing the 210 000 telephones which are still needed. Well, that is exactly the exercise with which we are busy, but we need money.

The hon. member for Umhlanga said right at the commencement of his speech that this was one of the departments which needed money, but the very next moment he indicated that he was against increasing the tariffs. Having said that, however, he pleaded for the installation of more telephones. He wanted a better exchange in Eshowe because according to him one could never get through to Eshowe.

I did not say that.

Well, the hon. member did say that he would vote against the budget, and that is bad enough. [Interjections.] I think if he votes against the budget, it will be because of prejudice and not because of a clear mind.

I gave you the reasons why.

I have already dealt with the Stabilization Fund issue.

I do not intend dealing in detail with the question of my having received a telex from the National Consultative Committee. I want to say, however, that I did receive a telex on 22 February to which I replied on 9 March. The Department also informed the present president telephonically. We have a very good relationship with the private sector and I do not want to say anything in the House which may break down that relationship. I think, however, that the National Consultative Committee must also realize that whatever we do in the Post Office is to their benefit. The budget that has been introduced is also to their benefit. We do not want to do anything that will cause us losing clients.

*The hon. member for Sunnyside said that we had to beware that we did not price ourselves out of the market. We are very careful about that, but we must obtain money to be able to provide a better service. We are totally opposed to receiving any subsidy in this regard.

†The hon. member for Hillbrow talked about the private automatic branch exchanges. Traditionally five firms have supplied us with the so-called PABX equipment. Despite increasing pressure from other firms, only these five firms were allowed because we have long term contracts in order to prevent unneccessary competition, since such competition would result in the firms cutting one another’s throats and then our electronic industry would not be developed. It can therefore be stated that for many years these firms have been protected from competition by the Post Office. The Post Office has always supplied manually operated private branch exchanges. These old PABX exchanges are however becoming completely outmoded in the modern age and it has therefore been decided to replace them with the BTS 60, a small type of PABX capable of supplying up to 30 extensions. The BTS 60 will be manufactured under licence by one of our traditional contractors; not by somebody else whom we have brought in. They are the only people who manufacture and supply this. Tenders were neither called for nor required because the allocation of the contract for the supply of telecommunication equipment to one of our traditional suppliers was done by agreement. This has been the case over the last 15 years. It was done with the full approval of the State Tender Board. The BTS 60 will not be marketed at a loss because realistic rentals and charges will be levied. Only 30% of the PABX market falls within the range from 10 to 30 extensions. The remaining 70% of the market will still be taken up by the other four contractors. Since the BTS 60 will be manufactured by a private industry, no business is being taken away from anybody. We do not manufacture this equipment; we supply it after we have purchased it from these firms. Therefore we are not really in competition with anybody. All investments for the manufacture of electronic PABXs—this is relevant—were made after the decision to introduce the BTS 60. The statement of one thousand employees losing their work seems unlikely to me. Perhaps at a later stage the hon. member can tell me privately where he got his figures from. I think the figures are a bit exaggerated. One could not, by losing a contract for the making of a certain type of telephone, have 1 000 employees out of work. [Interjections.]

Could a pensioner live on 200 postage stamps a month?

Even that hon. member could live on them if he ate them and kept quiet. [Interjections.]

This brings me to the National Consultative Committee. The National Consultative Committee has regular meetings with the Postmaster-General. The Postmaster-General met members of that body in November, and he met them again later on. I have met some of their members, e.g. the Afrikaanse Handelsinstituut and the Newspaper Press Union, at various times. We hope to maintain very good liaison with these people. I do not want to go into the matter of the telex messages that went backwards and forwards. We shall be meeting later, but their request to see me before the budget was presented, about two or three weeks ago, to get me to reduce the tariffs, was a completely impossible request. We had already budgeted, we have certain plans for the next few years, and I think it is important that we should carry on with this plan. I shall, a little later, come back to a few other things the hon. member said.

*The hon. member for Umlazi raised a very interesting point like the hon. member for Hillbrow he, too, put forward the idea that in future we ought to do something to ensure that we can announce in this House what the next year’s tariffs will be. However, we cannot only do so in the budget. It is almost impossible to discuss something of this nature in the budget only. What is really very important is that in a preceding budget—like this one, for example—we must give trade and industry an indication of what the state of affairs will be the following year. We can try to indicate this percentagewise. I think it is important that I comply with the request of the hon. member for Umlazi, the hon. member for Hillbrow and other hon. members who feel that we should conduct our first real discussion of tariffs in this House during the Budget. Of course, for budgeting purposes it is very important for commerce and industry to know well in advance as well. Therefore I think it is important that I should give an indication today that we intend requesting an increase of about 10% in next year’s budget in the same way that we requested an increase of 14,6% this year. By doing so we shall be keeping abreast of our advance planning. If anything unforeseen occurs—and I cannot see that happening—it may happen that in the interests of Post en Telecommunications I shall have to change my plan. If nothing else happens, I shall request a 10% increase in revenue from tariffs in the next budget, discuss the matter here and submit the whole tariff structure to this House. When I took over this portfolio I discussed the matter with the Postmaster-General and it was my feeling—I was just as concerned about it as the hon. member for Hillbrow, the hon. member for Umlazi and other hon. members—that tariffs should be discussed here for the first time. In the past the Postmaster-General had to discuss tariffs with trade and industry months before the time. Then, however, it had to be kept secret, but all of a sudden everyone in the country knows about it except members of the House of Assembly. I think it is appropriate to discuss these matters in advance here. Businesses can start working on their budgets now, because they know more or less what the increase is going to be. They may be lucky, of course, because the increase could be less, but they may also be unlucky, because the increase could be slightly more. However, the figure I have indicated is more or less the figure for which we are planning now.

The hon. member for Hillbrow moved an amendment. I want to say to him at once that I cannot accept his amendment. We really cannot give him the opportunity to establish such a financial planning committee. I feel that the department itself can deal with this matter quite well. In any event there are enough committees already. There is some very good reading matter in this regard in the report of the Franzsen Commission, and we are working along those lines too. Hon. members all agreed that we ought to get on to a 50:50 basis. Perhaps, however, we differ as to the methods to be adopted in order to achieve that position. We are therefore unable to accept the hon. member’s amendment.

The hon. member for Umlazi then followed and right at the outset introduced a positive note into this debate. He said what one should really say, and that is that if we want to progress we must have increases or we must continue to negotiate loans, and by so doing eventually go bankrupt. That, more or less, was what he said. He explained the increase in revenue of 14,6% and I am grateful to him for doing so because he made my task easier, since I need not now explain the whole matter. He also raised the point that the hon. member for Hillbrow said only last year that “there should be gradual increases yearly instead of large increases at any fixed time”.

Once every five years.

The hon. member for Umlazi also discussed the Franzsen Commission and pointed out that we did not really need such a committee.

It is really a privilege to enjoy the support of such a chief spokesman on this side. The hon. member for Umlazi has been in the Post Office group for many years and he put forward and analysed certain matters and stated the case of the public, of the consumer, and did not merely complain, like others who feel that it is really their job to complain in this House. We are also very concerned about people who have a hard time of it. Hon. members must make no mistake about that. For example, the hon. member for Nigel referred to the elderly, people who are really having a hard time of it. We, too, are very concerned about them and we shall do our best to see to it that they do not have to bear an increasingly heavy burden as time goes on.

I want to thank the hon. member for Nigel for the friendly words he conveyed to me and to the top management. It is not wrong to differ with anyone, but the way in which it is done is not always right. However, I can say to hon. members that the way in which that hon. member did so, is certainly something to bear in mind in such a debate. The hon. member referred specifically to the years 1979, 1980, 1981 and 1982, in which the tariffs increased from 4 cents to 5 cents, 8 cents and 10 cents in the case of letters, and from 4 cents to 5 cents, 6 cents and 7 cents in the case of telephone calls. The hon. member should recall that during the same period from 1977 to 1983 alone, expenditure on staff salaries increased from R375 million to R757 million. They have therefore doubled. Due to staff salaries, our expenditure on staff doubled over four years. Our total operating expenditure was R820 million in 1977 and is now as much as R1 536 million. Therefore that has also doubled. During this period tariffs have increased by 33% whereas all the other figures have doubled.

The hon. member also referred to representations he had received from the Johannesburg Chamber of Commerce. In fact, we also had very good co-operation from the Afrikaanse Handelsinstituut. I met them, and their feeling was that as long as we did not exceed the 50:50 ratio, they were satisfied that we were running this undertaking on a very sound basis. I have already discussed the burden of interest. The hon. member said another very important thing, viz. that the depression would pass. That, of course, is also why we are budgeting for a boom in the economy. I am sure that in the time that lies ahead we shall see the end of the depression. Then we shall be able to discuss matters further with one another.

The question of recruitment and recruitment in our countries of origin has been raised by certain hon. members, inter alia the hon. member for Nigel. We are doing our best to recruit workers from our countries of origin, but we have come up against the trade unions in those countries. In countries like Belgium, West Germany, France and, in particular, Holland, we are finding it difficult to recruit workers because the trade unions have a grip on these people. We did get workers from Belgium and the United Kingdom, but it is very difficult to get immigrants from other countries, particularly people who are of great importance to us in the technical sphere.

I shall not comment on the first part of the speech by the hon. member for Boksburg. However, he raised very interesting points concerning inflation. He referred to the speech of the hon. member for Yeoville during the no-confidence debate. It is interesting that at that stage the hon. member for Yeoville had a great deal to say about the Post Office budget but today, when we are dealing with the budget, he has not attended the debate. In his speech the hon. member discussed the considerable effect that the tariff increases would have on inflation. I dealt with that aspect last night and therefore I shall not do so again. It is a pity that the hon. member is not present at the moment because I have a couple of interesting things I could quote to him. However, because he is not present I shall leave it at that.

The hon. member for Boksburg said two interesting things. To begin with, he said that the Post Office belonged to the consumer. His second point was that “business knows no borders”. If we bear those two statements in mind, what this really amounts to is that we are seeking to promote the cause of the consumer in this country so that he can be given a service which he can be proud of and in which he can feel he is a shareholder. The consumer is always a shareholder in the Post Office because he makes a considerable contribution. The hon. member also said that this was a dynamic service. In addition, he said other good things about the Post Office. He also asked that we should develop our own contractors. That was in fact the policy of the Post Office long before I took over the portfolio. The present Postmaster-General, as well as his predecessors and previous Ministers, took very wise decisions in entering into 15-year contracts with our own firms. The hon. member Dr. Marais also referred to that. We are now in a situation in which the electronic industry is becoming increasingly stronger in South Africa. If we are unable to build up the electronic industry to sufficient strength, if we are unable to press through with this industry and make it as strong as possible, then we shall encounter many problems in the future.

The hon. member also discussed the high interest rates and added that we should look after the consumer. I have already dealt with that aspect.

†I have dealt with most of the financial points which the hon. member for Umhlanga raised in his speech. The hon. member mentioned in his speech that there is a difference between the Post Office and other companies in that the Post Office is a monopoly with a captive clientele. The hon. member then talked about America. The hon. member for Hillbrow and the hon. member for Bezuidenhout also said the Post Office was a monopoly.

In America it is also a monopoly.

In America there is a 80% monopoly. The Bell Telephone Company supply 80% of all the infrastructure and of the telephones. The other 20% is supplied by 1 600 companies. However, they do not supply the infrastructure. There is no other country in the world where everybody runs around and installs telephones. In England there is the British Telcom, a State corporation, in Belguim there is the PTT …

[Inaudible.]

I think that hon. member should rather be quiet. He does not follow the arguments. He sits there reading and simply tries to irritate one. He is not conveying knowledge; he is merely opening his mouth and making a noise. That is all he is doing. In this way he attracts a great deal of attention from the Press because he is regarded as the clown of this House.

†In Belgium there is the PTT, in West Germany the Bundespost, in France the PTT and in Holland also the PTT. These are all organizations which are under the control of a Minister. They also have a monopoly, the same as we have here. It is a worldwide phenomenon. What company can put in the infrastructure that our Department of Posts and Telecommunications puts in? What services are we going to let the private companies take? Will they walk off with the cherries while the department will sit with all the nonpayers and has to provide the infrastructure? I think one must rather get away from the idea that the Department of Posts and Telecommunications is a monopoly. It is a service supplying department and is run as a business. It is being run as any State corporation is run and gets no subsidy from the Government. It has to find its own income and negotiate its own loans. I think one of the worst examples that one can use is the example of the United States because in that country the infrastructure has already been provided. If one now gives any other company an opportunity to come in, will that company then go around digging up the streets, laying cables and putting in its own exchanges? Or will it just come to the end point and install a telephone by connecting it to a wire that is connected to the department’s cable? Does the hon. member have any competitors in mind? Has he discussed the profitability of this whole affair? Has he told them that they would have to invest R1 000 million a year to possibly earn an interest of something like 2% at the tariffs that we are charging now? I think the hon. member will realize that it is impossible. It is not done in other parts of the world and it is not a very successful venture in the United States.

The hon. member also said that the budget was like the curate’s egg, good in parts and bad in parts. I think it is a very unbalanced sort of curate’s egg because I think the bad parts are at a minimum and the good parts at a maximum.

The hon. member made a very important statement when he said that all the department’s expansion requires money. I think those words were prophetic words, but perhaps in the ranks of the Opposition a prophet is not always honoured in his own land. Finance is obviously the whole thing on which the Department of Posts and Telecommunications hinges. We must have a source of finance. I have already dealt with the matter of inflation and I have also said that we cannot go on borrowing. I agree with the hon. member. The hon. the Prime Minister said that our first priority is to bring down inflation, but I am quite sure that the hon. the Prime Minister would not be very happy if in a year or two, when there has been a great influx of capital into our economy, we could not accommodate the people who want to put up factories in the various areas that are being prepared now because we could not supply them with the necessary means of communication. I received representations today from people who have erected buildings without telling us. Now that they have to move in they cannot get a telephone or a telex. The department now has to rush around in order to try to provide them with some sort of a service because otherwise they are going to lose a lot of money in the next few weeks.

The hon. member raised the point about the waiting time and he asked whether the waiting time was going to be reduced. I think that one must look at this matter from two points of view. The hon. member asked what the maximum waiting time was. In the areas where we have the infrastructure, where we have cables, our waiting time at the moment is from 10 days to 3 months. That is where we have the equipment: the cable, the exchanges and everything that is needed. However, there are areas in which we have no infrastructure at all. People moved into certain areas knowing that there is no infrastructure, and they might have to wait for two or three years because the department cannot swing its whole planning around to accommodate just a few people who have moved into an area knowing that we cannot accommodate them. I would suggest that people who intend putting up anything like a factory or who even intend living in a certain area must first consult with their local post office, their regional director or even get in touch with the department to find out what the infrastructure is in that particular area. We are finding that there are many people who are not paying enough attention to this matter. We have actually instituted a special branch that is now spending all its time trying to solve these problems and it is even computerizing the facts at a later stage to see whether we can get the whole picture of what is needed in certain areas. This picture changes, however. We have suddenly had a run on equipment in the smaller towns. In places such as Somerset West and George there has suddenly been an upsurge in the number of people wanting telephones. People have moved to these places in order to get away from the cities.

The hon. member also said that he hoped the coin-operated telephones would be vandal-proof. Unfortunately nothing is vandal-zproof. The Post Office loses R200 000 every year through vandals damaging telephones and booths. However, it is a matter that is tickling our ingenuity when it comes to the construction of booths. Some booths are so constructed that the person using the telephone is clearly visible to any passer-by and whatever he does can be quite easily observed.

The hon. member also touched on the question of the automation of manual exchanges. This is one of our problems. I think the hon. member mentioned Eshowe. This presents us with problems for the reason that it takes some time to install the equipment. Meanwhile the staff in those areas get a little bit restless because they know that soon they would have to leave. So we have to face staff losses. We are trying to combat this, but we know that these transitional periods bring with it many difficulties. However, any hon. member who has a problem of this kind should contact the Postmaster-General or myself. We can then try to see what we can do because we have a staff relief service in terms of which we pay people more to go and relieve staff in certain areas.

Then the hon. member said something which was not too kind towards the staff. He suggested that we should use our discretion in appointing people and not more or less take everybody that comes along. It sounded as if the hon. member was worried that we may even take on social drop-outs. But I would like to give the hon. member the assurance that the appointment of staff is very well screened.

I will deal later with the question of productivity.

*I now come to the hon. member for Overvaal. Unfortunately he is not present at the moment, but nevertheless I want to thank him for the fearless way in which he said at the beginning of his speech that this debate was not about inflation but about the provision of services which enabled everyone in this country to be properly served. One can take it that this is the most important thing we have to do. I have already replied to some of the other matters he raised. He also said that the main source of revenue for the Post Office had to be tariffs. But there are other things, too, that provide us with revenue. What tariffs have to do is to maintain a balance between loans and self-financing. Operating expenditure must be so structured that we can cover the greater part of it by way of tariffs. If we do not do so then we are on the road to bankruptcy. He added that we should leave the public under no illusion. The Post Office needs money to supply its services and we must do something about it.

He also discussed the moving of post among various centres—actually, the moving of post by truck from one area to another.

†The hon. member for Umhlanga dealt with the movement of the traffic in the Johannesburg area. I think the hon. member was a little bit hard on the Post Office when in the debate on the budget of the SATS he stated that the Post Office was actually taking money away from the SATS in that the Post Office was doing its own transport. This is not correct. We pay the SATS a fixed amount every year. The amount we pay the SATS annually is adjusted every three years. This is actually costing us at the moment an additional R26 000. Meanwhile it is not costing the SATS a single cent.

[Inaudible.]

No, that is not the only reason. The reason is that the sorting of postal items is centralized in Johannesburg. We have to keep our new sorting machines—some hon. members have already seen them—going full-out round the clock. That means that we can now empty post boxes in Pretoria much later every day. The post is then transported by road to Johannesburg where it is sorted into the main stream. Because we know during which hours every day the flow of post reaches a peak, we can now employ this organizational method and decide pragmatically what will be the appropriate times to empty post boxes in Pretoria for the transport of mail to the sorting centre in Johannesburg. In this way we sometimes save up to 36 hours on delivery time. By employing this new organizational method we have found it suits our total strategy far better, especially in the Witwatersrand and Pretoria areas.

There are other areas too where a similar procedure is followed, for example Pietermaritzburg and vicinity. In certain areas, of course, train services have been suspended for various reasons. I am thinking, for instance, of the South Coast area of Natal. There mail is being carried by road motor transport. We do these things, however, only with a view to improving our service. It is not in any way our intention to infringe upon the services normally carried out by the SATS. When revising our tariff structure again, however, we might decide to subtract something in order to compensate for what we have been doing in the Johannesburg area.

*I believe the hon. member Dr. Marais provided the House with a great deal of interesting data. I urge hon. members who are interested in his exposition of the determining of tariffs and of financing, to go and reread his speech. It is not a long speech; it comprises only a few pages. What sound determining of tariffs in fact signifies is, what the market can bear, and the full cost. One must either aim to recover the full cost, or one must see what the traffic can bear.

It is probably because it is St. Patrick’s Day that that sounds so terribly Irish.

I believe it has been very simply stated. Then, too, there is the principle of financing based on solvency. Liquidity and profitability are also, of course, vital to an undertaking. If we implement those three principles, then the Post Office cannot but flourish. The hon. member Dr. Marais also agreed with the hon. member for Hillbrow that a reserve ought to be built up. However, when things go well again and the economy flourishes, the principle still stands that tariffs must be levied. Perhaps at that point we can use some of that money to carry us through the lean years. I believe that this is something we shall have to look at again. At this stage I cannot yet give a final answer in this regard.

The hon. member also discussed the issue of decentralization. He said that we should decentralize.

†A cornerstone of our whole business undertaking is decentralization. We have gone into a number of regions in which the regional directors are doing their work with dedication. In this instance I should like to refer to something said by the present President of France. He said France had needed a strong, centralized power in order to become a whole and that it now needed to be decentralized to keep it from falling apart. That is not the exact reason why we are following the principle of decentralization. We are not doing that in order to keep us from falling apart. I am merely quoting the French President in order to prove that there are people in high places elsewhere who realize that they also now have to do the same thing which we have already been doing over a long period.

[Inaudible.]

Mr. Speaker, I am not going to reply to that question now. The hon. member is trying to divert my attention while everybody else in this House is expecting from me that I should reply to the Second Reading of the Post Office Appropriation Bill.

The hon. member for Bezuidenhout said we should produce a White Paper in connection with our five-year planning. I do not think that is necessary. Which other business undertaking reveals all its planning strategies to the whole world? We might even have to alter our plans at a later stage. If we did that we could well land ourselves in a position in which we would be obliged to explain to all and sundry why we had to depart from our original planning. We plan. We plan for from five to ten years ahead on the telecommunications side. On the postal side there are weekly or monthly meetings at which decisions are taken in regard the improvement of the postal service. The system that we saw in Pretoria in regard to postal articles being sent to the operational area was worked out for us by some of our postal officials who had gone into the matter and realized that this could be done very much more quickly, so much so that I saw postal articles at the operational area that had been posted the previous day in Pretoria. I saw parcels at the operation area which had been posted three days previously in Stellenbosch, registered parcels. These were transported to Pretoria, from there to Grootfontein and from there distributed to the various units.

The hon. member also referred to the telex service and brought that into line with the ordinary telegraph service. I think the hon. member can be assured that the telex service is not really in competition with the telegraph service. These two services serve very different needs. An extension of the telex service will have a-minimal-effect on the telegraph service. We are improving the telegraph service by the introduction of a store and forward facility which will mean a more economical service to the department in our efforts to reduce our considerable losses. This is one of the services with a huge loss of something like R29 million but it is also a service that we have to render. We are trying to streamline it but I do not think we shall ever be able to phase it out because it is a very important part of our postal services. However, at this stage we are still finding it difficult to swing that loss over because if we raise the tariffs very much higher—and this is the reason why we did not do so this year—we may be doing what the hon. member for Sunnyside warned about and that was that we must be careful that we do not price it out of business. We are trying to work off the loss and we are struggling in this regard because it is a service that incurs a very heavy loss. However, we hope to be able to improve the situation in the time that lies ahead and I am quite sure that the telegram service is here to stay.

The hon. member also referred to optical fibre. I think the hon. member also said that technology in the Republic was not yet good enough.

That is what I am worried about.

I must disagree with the hon. member. When I was overseas I was able to see exactly how optical fibre is produced. It is exported to us from the British company STC in huge rolls. The fibre is treated here by ATC. Actually, I opened the factory at Brits where this fibre is treated to bring it up to the stage where one can put it into use. There is a network on the Witwatersrand into which we have already put something like six or seven kilometres of cable. We did this because the lightning in that area was affecting our instruments and causing a number of delays. It has also been installed as a pilot scheme and I can assure the hon. member that optical fibre is going to be the transmission medium of the future.

I agree that the system is good. I am only concerned about its manufacture.

It is going to be the transmission medium of the future because it is not affected by lightning. As hon. members know, in it sound is transmitted by light and by laser beam. With this thin fibre—it is as thin as a human hair—one can have 2 000 conversations being conducted simultaneously without there being any interference. We do have the expertise to handle this system. Overseas administrations and suppliers have always been lavish in their praise of our expertise and the up to date knowledge that our engineers and technicians have. I do not think that our engineers need stand back for anyone in the world as far as their knowledge of telecommunications is concerned. As has been the practice for many years, the Post Office is encouraging local firms to manufacture all telecommunications equipment. We have the best quartz in the world in the Pietersburg area. I am not talking politics now! There is enough quartz in that particular area to supply all our needs. There is already one company in this country which is negotiating to manufacture that fibre here under licence. I think the hon. member can be assured that there will be no problems in this regard.

The hon. member also referred to the videotex system which is, as he knows, also called Beltel. It was introduced as a trial in 1981 and the trial system has been limited in order to reduce the costs. At present we have 80 information providers on a first come, first served basis and there are already 22 that are waiting to have their information processed by the computers. These include banks, building societies, insurance companies and newspaper groups. There is no restriction on any person or organization who wish to use Beltel. At present there are 341 such subscribers. It may be mentioned that a trial scheme, such as the one introduced by us, is normal practice all over the world because there are teething troubles. We must be in a position te see what could happen. Once the teething troubles are solved, we carry on with the rest of our programme.

I think the hon. member suggested that we should have a flat rate telephone service for our boys on the border. The flat rate ought to be R1,00 or 50 cents. This is one of the things which in one’s heart one feels one should do, but using one’s head one has to decide differently. Once we start making a difference in respect of our boys on the border, we shall get the pensioners, the lame, the blind, the sick and the war veterans asking for a differentiated tariff. It will be realized that in an organization like the Post Office it will be impossible to handle this. How does one differentiate? Does one do it on the basis of units? How does one get one’s calls through?

There is a big difference between a man who is in danger and a man who sits in his own home.

I just want to say that we shall go into the speech of the hon. member in Hansard and if there are still points to which I have not replied, we shall reply to them in writing. I think the hon. member is of all the hon. members who participated in the debate the most prolific asker of questions.

The hon. member raised a question about Sames. The whole development of the modern electronic industry is based on the integrated circuit, commonly known as the Chip. The Post Office realized this and we actually established a company. We built a capability into Sames—the South African Micro-electronic System—and it is now beginning to produce. We have been subsidizing it for some time and now it is beginning to sell some of its components. That is why a reduction of the subsidy is reflected in the budget. The reduction is not a sign that we want to kill it. On the contrary, we like it so much that is is now on its way to make a profit. When ons reduces a subsidy, it is as good as profit.

*The hon. member for Newton Park made probably one of the most important statements when he discussed productivity. He said that productivity was of the utmost importance in keeping the Post Office liquid. He also raised the important point that productivity could only be promoted when one trained one’s staff effectively. One must continue to provide them with better training and keep them happy by way of good housing. The hon. member put forward very commendable ideas here.

I should like to say to the hon. member— other hon. members also discussed this, e.g. The hon. members for Hillbrow and Umhlanga and the hon. member Dr. Marais— that the Post Office is one of the places where one can measure productivity. We have no problem measuring it. It can be measured on the basis of the quantity of mail dealt with. If there is a place where a group of people work and every evening there are piles of postal articles and the next evening there are more piles, then surely one knows that productivity is lacking. The work of the technical staff can also be measured. I have the assurance of the Deputy Postmaster-General in this regard. There are a few groups whose productivity cannot be measured quite as specifically. However, there is no field in which we cannot measure people’s workload and capacity for work. We must also bear in mind that the greater part of the staff of the Post Office have for many years been working two hours per week longer than any other official in the Public Service, while the other part that does not fall under this works four hours a week longer than the rest of the Public Service.

They work much longer hours than people in the private sector.

I think we have staff of whom one can be proud. We are proud of the fact that sometimes up to 84 transactions can be carried out at one counter, and that the official behind the counter is aquainted with each transaction. He has to help one when one enters the Post Office whether one is a difficult person or not. One has to be assisted promptly. The people who have to do that work really have to look after the public. They have to be our showcase, but because they have such an enormous amount of work to do it is necessary, in the first place, that they should be happy in the organization in which they work, that there should be sound training and that there should be a very good relationship between the top management and myself and the workers’ associations. There are regular discussions, and when discussions have to be held concerning the curtailment of salaries this year, they were among the first to take a decision and say: We know that we are going through a difficult time; we shall wait until the time is right. Accordingly I am not worried about the promise I gave the hon. member for Nigel, because we shall indeed consider that. As soon as we have the opportunity, we shall see to it that there are no problems with these people who give us productivity. I thank the hon. member for his contribution, even though it was a brief one. It seems to me that hon. members on this side are only permitted to make very short speeches. In the short time available to him, however, that hon. member raised a number of points and also discussed the very important matter of the productivity of our people and the fact that they are a contented working group.

The hon. member for Sunnyside moved an amendment. Before dealing with other aspects, I should perhaps just set aside a few moments to deal with his amendment. The first aspect is that the backlog in the provision of telephone services must be made up without delay. We are doing this. Therefore the hon. member’s amendment is grist to our mill. We are doing this, and therefore I do not believe it was necessary to move this in an amendment. However, the hon. member may rest assured that although I am not accepting the amendment, we are concerned with that aspect.

Then, too, mention was made of the fact that the necessary Post Office facilities must be provided for people of colour in rural areas in order to prevent crowding-out in White areas. This is indeed the policy of the Post Office. I have had representations from various members from time to time to the effect that large residential areas have been established in their areas for our people of colour. The Post Office provides a service. We must serve our clients where they live. Our service must be provided close to them. Where there is a business, it must be possible to obtain a service. We make quite sure that there is as little friction as possible. One of the things which caused us major problems in the past was when pensions had to be paid in our Post Offices which acted as agents. At various places, however, the top management has taken steps to afford the pensioner an opportunity to be served promptly and without difficulty at a specific place so that he does not have to stand among other people who have to buy postage stamps or postal orders or pay accounts and then have to wait there the whole day. We are dealing with that problem and I can assure the hon. member that we shall see to it that matters go smoothly.

A third point in the amendment was that the job security of the White workers in the Department of Posts and Telecommunications should at all times be put first. I do not think the hon. member need be concerned about that. We look after all our workers. Because at this stage the White worker is the worker with the highest technical training, the worker who has had the opportunity over the years to be in our service, we shall see to it that he is not crowded out or removed in any way simply because someone else can be appointed in his place. I can assure the hon. member of that. However, just as I have a responsibility to the White worker, I also have the same responsibility to the workers of the various Black peoples, the Coloureds and the Asians. Therefore, the hon. member’s three points are things that we are dealing with every day in the Post Office. Therefore I do not think that it was necessary for the hon. member to move them in an amendment.

You accept it then?

I accept the suggestions made by the hon. member, but we are already dealing with those problems. However, the amendment as such I cannot accept. I should rather put a request to the hon. member. Rather support the Post Office budget, because then the hon. member can go back to his constituency with the feeling that he has done really good work this session.

The hon. member spoke about a shortage in certain categories of male staff and wanted to know why this was so. Although in general we are employing fewer people due to resignations, we are still, unfortunately, losing too many technicians. They go to the private sector, although in recent times there have been fewer of them leaving. However, they are highly trained people, well-versed in technology, and they are being taken away. However, we are trying to eliminate this shortage by way of our training programme. We are trying to obtain more male clerks, because that is where the problem lies. There is a shortage of male clerks throughout the public sector. Banks and building societies are encountering the same problem. I think that there is simply an insufficient number of young men choosing clerical work as a career nowadays. However we have a special investigation under way which is continually investigating various ways and means of attracting people to join us.

There are matters I have not yet dealt with. The hon. member for Hercules told a very interesting story about the “pony express” from St. Joseph’s to Sacramento. I want to thank him for that. I just hope we need not go back to those times. The hon. member Mr. Vermeulen also raised very interesting points, particularly the question of the printing of postage stamps. There we have to admit guilt. When one has problems, it is better to admit guilt. We thank him sincerely for his remarks concerning the quality of our postage stamps. We must admit that we had difficulty with the latest definitive series of historical buildings which have had a somewhat colourless appearance. This series was in fact designed for a steel printing process which ought to result in an entirely different end-product. Due to staff problems at the Government Printer, however, we were compelled to use a lithographic printing press. The matter has now been rectified and we hope that when the stamps have been reprinted they will present a far better appearance. I think that some of the hon. members have already seen some of these stamps. We are pleased that the hon. member, as a member of this group, takes such an interest in stamps. Next time, perhaps, we could discuss the matter briefly with our group, and with hon. Opposition members who take an interest in philately, even before printing. The hon. member Mr. Vermeulen also discussed the very good exchange systems we have, for example the EWSD, and said that we needed money. That is in fact the important thing.

In conclusion I wish to pay tribute to the staff. I want to convey my sincere thanks to a dedicated top management. One can always rely on the Postmaster-General. In discussions with him, and with the Deputy Postmasters-General who are concerned with the technical side, posts and finance, one realizes how expert they are. The Postmaster-General, of course, brings everything together. When we put all this together, we have a department which need not be concerned about the future. The House of Assembly, which has the say over the budget of this department, can also be sure that the department is well-run at all times. In fact this does not only apply to the top management. I want to pay tribute to all the staff, from the Postmaster-General down to the regional directors and everyone in the Post Office. We are a contented group of people and I hope that as a team we shall develop still further in the time that lies ahead and will be able to serve the public in a friendly and dedicated way.

Question put: That all the words after “That” stand part of the Question,

Upon which the House divided:

Mr. Chairman, I should like to begin by expressing my appreciation to the Postmaster-General, Mr. Bester, and to the members of his staff for the courteous and efficient manner in which I have been received whenever I have had occasion to approach them with a problem. I also wish to include the members of the hon. the Minister’s personal staff. I want to say that all matters are dealt with by members of the Post Office staff promptly and with expertise. As a newcomer to this House and to the Post Office group, I value this approach greatly.

Then, I should like to raise a matter concerning my constituency, namely the Saxonwold Post Office which could, quite correctly, be named the Rosebank Post Office as it is right in the middle of the Rosebank shopping centre. The Rosebank shopping centre is one of the biggest regional shopping centres in South Africa and great demands are made on the services provided by the Post Office there. I have been approached by a number of constituents complaining about what they say are the inadequate manning complements at the Saxonwold Post Office. At peak periods long queues develop and members of the public become impatient with the service provided. I am aware that this problem has been raised with the Postmaster-General and I mention it in the hope that action will be taken soon to alleviate the problem.

The next question concerns my constituency as well, and that is the proposed erection of a service centre in the suburb of Birdhaven. The hon. the Minister and the Postmaster-General are aware that there is a great deal of agitation regarding the erection of this facility and I would ask that they finalize this matter as soon as they possibly can with a degree of care, taking into account the views and the interests of the residents.

During the course of the recent debate on the estimates of additional expenditure I raised the matter of modems and suggested that the provision of these should be transferred to the private sector. In his reply the hon. the Minister indicated that this was being considered. I should like to raise that matter again this afternoon, and I refer to the hon. the Minister’s Second Reading speech on Tuesday, two days ago, when he mentioned that an amount of R45 million would be spent on modern installations during 1983-’84. R45 million is a great deal of money and I want to repeat my appeal to the hon. the Minister to consider allowing the private sector to handle this matter. I also wish to repeat what I had said before. I am not suggesting that my handing this matter over to private enterprise we should lower standards and we must ensure by regulation and by regular control that the high standards are maintained. I say that R45 million is a great deal of money because, to put it in a simple form, it represents, once the tariff increases are accepted, 450 million 10 cent stamps or almost 643 million telephone calls. To put it another way, after the beginning of the next financial year, the first 450 million 10 cent stamps sold or the first 643 million telephone units used after 1 April will go towards the provision of modems. These are considerable figures, Sir, and the impact of the tariff situation is of great effect. There is no doubt that the inclusion of these items has a deleterious affect on the budget. If they had been excluded from this budget the need for drastic tariff increases would have been greatly reduced. With the technological advances being made in South Africa the demand for modems will increase in the years ahead. If this item is to be included in future budgets, it will only serve to exacerbate the tariff situation, and I therefore plead with the hon. the Minister to give urgent attention to this matter.

I should now like to turn to the question of the provision of services in the rural areas. When the internal mail tariffs were standardized some years ago, it was said that all mail would be treated as airmail. For a whole number of reasons, one of which was the rationalization of rail services, the postal services in the rural areas have deteriorated to a degree. I think it is unfair that people living in the rural areas have to pay airmail postal rates for surface mail services. I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister to consider reintroducing a system of surface and airmail rates.

When it comes to rural telephone services these people are being discriminated against. In his statement of 11 February 1983 the hon. the Minister partially justified the increase in tariffs by pointing out that the ever-increasing demand for telecommunication services made high demands on the Post Office finances. He continued by saying that additional capital expansion programmes are essential to meet the demand for services. It means that new sophisticated telecommunication extensions are being supplied and financed by existing subscribers. These include the manual exchange subscribers who, despite the inferior service, would have to pay the same for a telephone call than those subscribers connected to, say, an electronic exchange. I would ask the House to consider the lot of the rural manual subscriber who has to put up with many inconveniences.

First of all, virtually all calls are trunk-calls and it may take a great deal of time to make a connection as incoming calls into an exchange are given priority. I do not have a manual telephone myself because I live in Johannesburg, but I have been told by people who live in the country that this constitutes a great irritation. A second inconvenience is that if a subscriber has a series of calls to make, the only practical way is to give all the numbers required to the exchange at once and when one call initiates another, business is likely to run into more than one day. Thirdly, I am advised there is no direct inquiry service after hours available to these subscribers. This, too, constitutes a great inconvenience. There are innumerable irritations and frustrations involved in dealing with manual exchanges, despite the good relationship which often exists between the subscriber and the operator in the exchange. I was pleased when the hon. the Minister announced that the old party type line was going to be replaced by individual automatic services. However, is it not possible to defer the increase in tariffs in respect of manual exchanges until they have been automated? If that can be done it will create a great deal of goodwill among a section of the community who have suffered inferior services for many years. So I commend this to the hon. the Minister for his earnest consideration.

Then I want to come to the public relations section of the Post Office. It is frequently stated that the Post Office is a business and should be run on business lines. With that I have no argument. As I have pointed out previously, the image of the Post Office amongst the business community is a good one and it is important that this should be maintained. In the light of the recent drastic tariff increases that image may have been damaged, and I want to suggest that the talents of the public relations section be put to good use in promoting amongst the business sector particularly the services offered by the Post Office. Any large business in its contact with the public makes use of public relations experts. I am aware that the Post Office representatives in Johannesburg and Pretoria in particular are competent in their field, but my concern is that they should not spend too much of their time on general complaints when they could be applying their minds and considerable expertise in promoting and selling the Post Office. It is important that officials be available to deal with general complaints or queries, and I am not proposing that this part of the functions of the public relations section be diminished. What I am suggesting is that the public relations section should be expanded to ensure that the confidence of the business community in particular and the public in general is maintained and that the Post Office is continued to be seen as an official organization dedicated to serving the public of South Africa.

There are one or two other matters I should like to raise arising out of the replies to questions of the hon. the Minister over the past couple of weeks. The hon. the Minister, by the way, complained about the hon. member for Bezuidenhout asking him such a number of questions yesterday. He shall have to excuse me but I can only have one bite at this cherry and accordingly have to get all my questions in at this opportunity. The first question relates to a reply he gave on 10 February concerning outstanding applications for telephones at the end of December last year. Not unnaturally the highest figure was in respect of the Witwatersrand, the figure being 75 940. Of these applications 27 660 were in respect of the Soweto area. This is the largest number of outstanding applications for any one area. When the first automatic telephones were provided in Soweto some years ago we had Operation Soweto to get those telephones connected and installed as quickly as possible. I should like to recommend to the hon. the Minister that he embarks on another Operation Soweto in an attempt to wipe out this large backlog of applications.

My next question relates to an answer the hon. the Minister gave on 7 March concerning the number of flats and housing units owned by the Post Office and how many were allocated to Whites and how many to those who are not white. The reply was that there were almost 1 000 flats and almost 2 000 housing units. Employees who were not White were in occupation of only 37 flats and 24 housing units. This is a very low proportion, and I should like the hon. the Minister to have a look at this ratio and to determine whether there is not a greater need among these employees for housing.

Order! I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but his time has expired.

Mr. Chairman, I am merely rising to give the hon. member the opportunity to continue with his speech.

Sir, I thank the hon. Whip for allowing me this opportunity.

The next question I should like to raise relates to the question of telephone calls to overseas countries. At present we have a system of three metering periods within the country. If I am correct the normal charge applies during the day, while during the early part of the evening one gets one-third off, while for calls later in the night and early in the morning the reduction is two-thirds. But outside the country one pays the full amount irrespective of the time at which the call is made. With the increased tariffs it means that a telephone call to any part of the world other than South Africa is going to cost R4,20 a minute. That is a large amount to pay for a telephone call and I therefore suggest to the hon. the Minister that he should investigate the possibility of allowing discounts as they do in other parts of the world. The discounts can be similar to those applied to internal calls. The argument might be raised that it is difficult to isolate such calls. I notice from the Postmaster-General’s report, however, that overseas’ calls are isolated, and I would hope that they could be metered in a different way. It could well be difficult because of the different time zones that have to be taken into account. I am told, however, that these discounts do apply in the USA. I should therefore ask the hon. the Minister to investigate that possibility.

My final point concerns airmail aerograms. What has been put to me is that the quality of the paper leaves much to be desired. People often type their letters on aerograms to Europe or the USA. People do this very frequently in order to make the best use of the limited space available on such an aerogram. They normally want to get as many words in as possible. It does happen, however, very frequently that the typewriter makes holes in the paper. I wonder if it isn’t possible to consider having the quality of the paper upgraded.

The second point regarding aerograms is that the normal postage for an overseas aerogram is 15 cents. An internal aerogram now costs 8 cents in terms of postage. It will cost 10 cents when the new tariffs are introduced on 1 April this year. At the moment, however, the Post Office is still selling aerograms with 5 cent stamps printed on them, which means that one has to buy a 3 cent stamp in order to make up the current 8 cent postage. Is it not possible, when the new tariffs are introduced, for aerograms to be sold bearing 10 cent stamps?

Mr. Chairman, I should like to react to a few of the remarks made by the hon. member for Johannesburg North. He referred to the service in rural areas, and stated that people in rural areas paid more, in the sense that they paid airmail service tariffs, while no such service was available to them. However, the fact remains that they pay the same tariff as everyone else, and that the service available to them is also rendered as rapidly as possible. Postal articles are sent to the nearest airport, from where they are despatched to their various destinations in the most effective way.

There are certain services which the Post Office must utilize to be able to continue its own services, and among these are train services. After all, we are also aware that certain train services have been rationalized. However, when we listen to hon. members of the official Opposition, I feel that the following English saying really applies to them: “They want to have their cake and eat it”. On the one hand they want to save costs, while on the other they want the most effective and the most expensive services possible. These two aspects are simply not reconcilable in economic terms.

The hon. member for Johannesburg North also referred to what we used to call the farm telephone in the old days. Along with this we have the party Une and also the small rural telephone exchange. I feel rather nostalgic when I consider that these rural telephone exchanges and the entire old farm telephone system have virtually been eliminated. After all there was quite a bit of romance attached to that old system. It is far nicer to talk to a friendly telephonist, a person who tries to help put through your call, than to wrestle with the problem of a number that remains engaged at the other end while there is no one you can share your frustrations with.

A lover from Springs! [Interjections.]

Mr. Speaker, this Irishman … in any case, let us ignore him. [Interjections.]

As we all know, there were quite a number of mischievous people on the platteland in the old days. It did happen that on occasion people listened in to other people’s telephone conversations. Of course we also have the wonderful example of the television programme “Nommer Asseblief”. I think that everyone who comes from the platteland thought back with nostalgia, when they watched that television programme, to the good old days when most of us received the news about everyone in the neighbourhood via the telephone. Those were the days when the person working on the telephone exchange was the one whom everyone telephoned to hear every important item of news in the community. When this system has been completely eliminated, I think an era in the history of the Post Office in South Africa will have passed, an era to which we who lived through it, we who grew up with it, will think back with nostalgia.

Of course it is a good thing that technological development occurs. However, we must not forget that the things of the past, as we knew them, also had a certain romance.

These days they call it the little black book. It is no longer a party line.

I should like to discuss another aspect now and it has nothing to do with farm telephones. I want to discuss a technological development and the Post Office as the centre of a community. It has always been the case that a post office and a postal service were the centre around which a community frequently developed. When one arrives at the smallest hamlet one always finds the post office there, with all its services. That was also the case in South Africa and the conveying of messages has been a very important activity over the centuries. In South Africa our technology progressed from a stone to a tree to, so I have been told, a veldskoen in which the post was placed, to someone running with a cleft stick, to the very romantic days when coaches travelled the length and breadth of the country, to the present possibility of a communications satellite. A committee has been appointed by the hon. the Minister to investigate this entire matter and it is expected that a report will be submitted to the hon. the Minister by the end of 1985. These are exciting new possibilities for us. The use of such a satellite of one’s own has endless possibilities because it means that, for example, remote places can be reached easily, places that are difficult to reach with a cable or by means of the present relay system because they are situated in a deep valley. There is also the possibility that moving transport services such as trains would be constantly contacted. Of course the possibilities for the Defence Force are also unlimited.

A satellite used for these purposes is stationed 36 000 km from the earth above the equator and it then orbits the earth in a 24 hour cycle; in other words, for us it will basically be stationery at a fixed point above the earth. This satellite serves solely to strengthen radio waves which are transmitted to it and then transmitted back to a receiver unit in South Africa from which they are relayed further. This sort of satellite can serve 30 earth stations at a time and the total capacity of one satellite is 24 000 speech channels or 12 000 conversations, or 24 television channels which obviously is a formidable number of units which can be handled. The radio waves are beamed back to a satellite earth station and these stations are huge. The receiving antennae are 32 meters in diameter and these parabolic antennae must be aimed directly at that satellite orbiting the earth. As a result of the technology involved, this is obviously a very expensive process. The life of such a satellite system is estimated as between 5 and 7 years, but it is also possible that it can break down immediately and, in order to continue an essential service, there must be an immediate replacement. Frequently arrangements must be made years in advance to book a launch of such a satellite. That is why alternative measures must be taken and a replacement satellite is already placed in orbit near the first one so that if there are problems, that replacement satellite can be used immediately. However, when this is done, a second replacement satellite must immediately be placed in orbit to serve as an stand-by satellite. Hon. members can therefore see that we are actually dealing with three satellites to perform the function of one satellite. When we consider the estimated cost of this we find that it is estimated to cost R60 million to put a satellite into orbit. The stand-by satellite will cost a further R60 million and the stand-by satellite on the ground, R30 million. It is also estimated that every earth station will cost R10 million. It costs a further R30 million to launch a satellite. When this matter is considered, therefore, I feel that thorough consideration will have to be given to existing methods of communication, but we will not rush into a system if it is not a good proposition.

In conclusion, in the few minutes remaining at my disposal, I want to say a few words about my constituency. A little over a year ago I said that we should like the post office in Springs for which provision had been made in the budget. It gives me great pleasure to be able to say that the post office that was on the budget 15 months ago is now materializing in the form of concrete and bricks in Springs. [Interjections.] We are now getting a post office costing more than R5 million in Springs. I want to thank the hon. the Minister and the department because they gave us that post office in Springs. It is very well situated, almost in the centre of town. With the new extensions to the central area it will be right in the middle of town.

There is just one request. The hon. the Minister should give consideration, when they have such a good piece of land, to using it for more than one purpose. The site is right in the centre of the future Springs. I feel that it would in future be possible to utilize flats built on top of such a building very well as staff housing.

Mr. Chairman, it is a great pleasure for me to speak after the hon. member for Springs, particularly in view of what he had to say about the progress in his town in respect of the new post office.

No matter where we may be the post office is our vital link with the rest of the world. We are aware of the progress that has taken place during the past 50 years. There was also progress before that, but particularly during the past ten years greater progress has been made than in all the years prior to that. In this connection we are greatly indebted to the scientists of the world, wherever they may be. I am very glad to know that we are following close on the heels of those people. I therefore express my appreciation for this.

There are a few matters in my constituency to which I should like to draw attention. The first aspect concerns the telephone exchange in Nigel. You will remember that I asked last year for additional equipment to be made available, and I am happy to say that the technicians are now engaged on this task. They have already made a great deal of progress. When they are finished, it is to be hoped that the great backlog can be eliminated. There is a very long waiting list for telephones, and this demand cannot be met for the simple reason that there is insufficient equipment in the present building. However, we have been promised that by September the people will have their telephones. I should like to express my thanks for this. I hope and trust that there will be no further delays.

I now come to Heidelberg. I am experiencing a real problem there. Last year I specifically drew attention to the post office at Heidelberg. I did so the year before as well. You will remember that I said at that stage that the building at present in use did not belong to the Post Office; it is being leased in the same way that the Post Office leases many other buildings. The premises are in the busiest part of Heidelberg and they are far too small; they no longer meet the requirements at all. Heidelberg is growing rapidly; it is making rapid progress. You will also remember that we managed to obtain land only with great difficulty. When one of the schools was moved the land was subdivided. One half was earmarked for the Transvaal Provincial Administration and the other half for the Post Office. There was an argument between the Provincial Administration and the Post Office as to which half each should take. Eventually an agreement was reached and the top half was placed at the disposal of the Post Office because it was more readily accessible to old people who must, for example, collect their pensions there. Even now, however, the ground is just lying there. I therefore want to ask very seriously whether it is not possible for a start to be made now. I have been informed that it has reached the drawing-board stage. If it is at all possible, can the hon. the Minister tell us when the drawing-board stage will be completed and when tenders can be invited for that very important building? I know that the TPA is willing to begin work on the bottom half of that piece of land, as I told hon. members. All that remains is for us to make a start.

At Minnebron we have a self-service post office. It does meet a need in the sense that people can fetch their post there, but they cannot transact any other post office business there. People merely go there, open their post boxes and collect their post. There is no staff to serve them. Post office staff place the post in those post boxes when members of the public are not even there. We should like a full-fledged post office there. That part of Brakpan—which is in fact in my constituency—is expanding very rapidly.

Where is your constituency?

If the hon. member knew his geography better he would know that very well. [Interjections.] This is a very important matter. That sector is indeed growing very rapidly. [Interjections.] For that reason I want to ask that consideration be given to a possible site for that Post Office, because the present premises are also leased premises. The previous leased premises were at Schapensrust and were known as the Schapensrust Post Office. The Schapensrust Post Office was destroyed as a result of sabotage. However, it was very centrally situated. That place is so centrally situated that it can serve the entire area with ease. This brings me to my request. If it is at all possible, could premises be erected or hired near the place known as Schapensrust? Then I know that all the people in that area will receive the service they are entitled to. I am asking this, because to travel to Brakpan for every small transaction, over and above the fetching of post—and a few thousand people are doing this—is not only a waste of time, it is also a waste of fuel and many other things.

I confidently bring these three requests to the attention of the hon. the Minister and his officials, who I know will consider them.

Mr. Chairman, at the outset let me thank the hon. the Minister for pegging the telephone installation fee for the aged, blind and war veteran pensioners. We appreciated that. I think the hon. the Minister is also to be commended for making funds available for the retirement havens for the Post Office aged this year. We hope that plans will go ahead for the first one as soon as possible, and we look forward to seeing many more. I believe that this is a very valuable contribution to the housing problem of the aged and we, on this side of the House, are delighted that the department’s aged will be able to enjoy, in the near future, security of tenure, something which is very important as far as they are concerned.

Since the hon. the Minister was involved with welfare before taking over the present portfolio, I believe he is well aware—more so than most—of the position of our aged, and more especially the social pensioners. I believe he is also aware of the endless struggle they have to make ends meet. It is for this reason that I believe that the hon. the Minister could have been a little more generous towards the pensioners in this budget. He, above all others must, realize that the maximum pension is only R138, and he knows too how inflation has eroded that pension. Using a base line of 100 in 1975 as a comparison, the purchasing power of that pension is now only R60, and that figure I have taken from the official statistics of the department. He also knows that to an aged person a telephone is a lifeline. In some cases it is the only means of communication with family, friends, the doctor, the police, the chemist, etc. In other words, it is a pillar of security which is vital for a person’s peace of mind. For the aged security is their most vital concern, second only, I believe, to their concern about inflation, the erosion of the rand and having to pay more for less. This is indeed what is again happening to them in this budget: They are having to pay more for less because of the increased tariffs for both postal and telephone services. I therefore appeal to the hon. the Minister to reconsider his telephone tariff increase in respect of the social pensioner. Can the hon. the Minister in all honesty tell us that the department cannot afford to grant the pensioner a discount when he pays his telephone account? I believe that the department could afford a discount of 25% on a maximum amount of R25 on any one telephone account. I am sure it would be no great hardship physically or financially to implement such a scheme with the expertise the department has at its disposal.

I also wish to anticipate the hon. the Minister by saying “ja, maar …” That is the old story one gets from my colleagues to my left here. They always say “ja, maar …"

Such a concession may be abused by children living with their parents or vice versa. This can, however, be overcome by requesting proof from the pensioner that he or she is the registered owner or the lessee of the property in which the telephone is installed. I believe that where there is a will there is a way and I am sure the hon. the Minister is going to give this suggestion his serious consideration for the benefit of our pensioners.

During the 1981 general election the shares of the hon. the Minister fell sharply with the aged. My suggestion gives him a golden opportunity to reinstate the value of those personal shares. All I am asking for is a “Lapa”, a R20 telephone account, no more and no less. I believe it can be afforded, because if one looks at the anticipated revenue increase from rentals and metered calls, as indicated in the Estimates, one sees that it amounts to R271 million. I think I am right in saying that. I believe that with those estimates it can be afforded and the pensioner should be given a reasonable chance to keep the telephone he so desperately needs.

While I am dealing with the estimates, may I also ask the reason for the amount of R3,3 million itemized on page 4 as “Standard stock items written off or marked down in price”. I think this is quite a large amount. Possibly the Hon. the Minister can give us a bit more information on that when he replies. I also want to refer to the auditors’ statement for last year. On page 6 of the auditors’ report there is reference to fruitless expenditure of R650 000. Then, on page 5 of the report one sees that in respect of compensation for loss of insured parcels there was an increase of R81 000. I believe that these are two areas which require serious attention.

I now want to turn my attention to the department’s involvement in local industry. From the auditors’ report on page 6 one can see that the total subsidy amounts to approximately R11 million. I accept the terms of the agreement. The department ensures that there will be no loss for the company. In turn, a portion of the profits above a certain limit will accrue to the department on a formula basis. The catchphrase, I believe, is “above a certain limit”. I want to ask three questions. The first question is whether the department has ever had any profit or accrual.

What item is that?

It is in the auditors’ statement and concerns subsidies paid to companies. The second question is whether the department keeps a strict watch on the workings and balance sheets of the companies concerned. The third question is what the profit is before the limit referred to is reached. I believe subsidies are a two-edged sword. One has just to look at the input cost to the farmers because of protection and subsidies to get a little wary of those two words. As I have said, possibly the hon. the Minister will elaborate a little on this in his reply.

We on this side of the House are also extremely pleased that the boys on the border are now enjoying an improved postal service. We believe that this is long overdue and we would like to record our thanks to the hon. the Minister and the department for making this possible. At the same time I trust that the Department of Defence has taken note of the effort in this regard. I believe it should also play its role in supporting this improved service. I should like to make one further appeal to the hon. the Minister in respect of housing loans. In the past the department has seen fit to purchase blocks of flats. In so doing I believe it has placed further pressure on the already chronic housing shortage while at the same time feeding the spiralling costs of housing. One has a situation where a block of flats is bought and the existing tenants are given notice. These people in many cases—I would say in all cases—do not have the same privileges that Post Office employees have in respect of financial backing for the purchasing of their homes. So the department is responsible for creating hardship to these tenants in finding alternative accommodation. The housing shortage is acute. Everybody knows it. Why then purchase existing stock when the department has the necessary funds to build more homes?

What block of flats are you referring to?

I am referring to a block in Umbilo which was bought by the Post Office. The hon. the Minister has stated that there will be R40 million available this year, of which R10 million is for official housing and the other R30 million for, I presume, deposits as guarantees to the institutions who will be advancing further loans. If this is so, then I can see no reason why the department should not insist that new houses should be built instead of purchasing existing stock. In other words, more stock should be created to relieve some of the pressure on the existing limited stock. If the department places greater emphasis on the building of new homes, it would make a marked contribution to the alleviation of some of the housing problems which we are faced with today. What better example could we have than for the department to take the lead in providing new housing stock on the market? The purchasing of existing stock is only accentuating the problem and is creating artificial pressures, which in turn drives prices higher, and all this adds to inflation.

If one took the total amount of R40 million and averaged the cost per house at R50 000, one could look at 800 new homes this year. However, if one looks at it from the other side and R30 million is going to be used for guaranteed deposits at an average of R13 000 per home of R50 000, roughly a quarter, then one is looking at the possibility of an additional 2 000 new homes. That is a large number of homes and I believe it is something which must be seriously looked at. I believe the department offers a valuable perk to the employee. I believe this is a very substantial perk, because if one compares the interest that the man in the street pays with that paid by the employee of the department, one sees that the perk is worth a lot of money. Because it is such a beneficial perk I believe the department could impose further conditions, such as the emphasis on the building of new homes.

In closing, I am a little worried about the remarks made by the hon. the Minister in his budget speech. I quote—

[Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, there is not much I want to criticize in what the hon. member for South Coast said. I understand his defence of pensioners in this House, of course. When one has as many pensioners in one’s constituency as he has, I suppose one will always have to put in a good word for one’s voters. I do want to tell the hon. member, though, that he is being somewhat unfair to the hon. the Minister as far as the concessions to pensioners are concerned. Surely he knows that it is quite clear from the report and the budget what benefits have already been granted to pensioners. When a pensioner makes a telephone call, it will henceforth cost him only one cent per unit more. Surely that is not unreasonable. I want to leave the hon. member for South Coast at that.

The two aspects which I want to discuss in the Committee Stage of this debate are the study bursaries and study aid available to the staff of the Department of Posts and Telecommunications. I also want to refer briefly to the recruitment of staff.

It is gratifying to learn that the department has been doing excellent work with regard to study bursaries and study aid as well. In any organization, after all, one’s employees should receive the maximum academic, theoretical and technical training. For 1983, 54 new bursaries have been awarded for full-time tertiary studies in various fields. The expenditure on this will amount to approximately R129 000. In addition, 74 bursaries have been awarded for full-time studies in several approved fields at universities. The expense involved will be approximately R41 000. This means that in 1983, 245 full-time and part-time holders of bursaries and students will continue their studies, and it is estimated that this will cost the Post Office R431 300. This is a formidable achievement on the part of the department. The department also has specific incentives for engineering students. Cash awards are made on a pro rata basis to the students who have obtained distinctions in one or more of their subjects. A further aspect of study aid in the training of people is that as from this academic year, first-year engineering students who hold bursaries from the department will receive a non-recurring amount of R200 for the purchase of a programmable pocket calculator.

Naturally, it is impossible to elaborate on all the aspects of this in the time available to me, but I believe I should point out that the department also makes ample provision for officials to study part-time at technikons. These persons can study for diplomas in government administration, government accounting and finance, cost accounting and electronic data processing. The department also pays the tuition fees of officials wishing to learn the language of one of the Black peoples. The same applies to engineering staff taking courses in electronic dialling systems abroad. They can learn French or German with the financial assistance of the department. Tuition fees are also paid in respect of staff who are being trained as draftsmen and printers for the essential sea radio communication service.

From these few things which I have highlighted, it is evident that the department is deeply aware of its responsibility with regard to study bursaries and study aid to its staff. However, I notice that the Deputy Postmaster-General, staff, expresses concern in the latest annual report about the shortage of skilled workers in the department. The shortage is being experienced in all fields, but especially in the technical field. In order to solve this major problem, it will not only be necessary to find extra people, but the people who have to be found will have to be properly trained. The more trained people there are, the more people are available to train others who have not been trained. Therefore I should like to thank and commend the hon. the Minister and his department for the positive results they have obtained in the recruitment of staff abroad. In this they have set an example which many other departments, as well as many private organizations, would do well to follow. On the other hand, much more will also have to be done to increase the number of people within this country who have received tertiary training. The more of these people we have, the sooner it will be possible to train more skilled people. In the complex and highly sophisticated world of posts and telecommunications, one cannot employ just anyone. It is a long, evolutionary process, which can only be successful when there has been proper training, training which has been provided step by step. Moreover, highly skilled people are required in order to train unskilled and semi-skilled people.

Arising from this, I want to mention two matters to the hon. the Minister for his consideration. In the first place, the department employed approximately 45 000 members of staff between 1978 and 1982. Only 429 of those people had study bursaries in the 1980-’81 financial year, and only 494 of them had bursaries during the 1981-’82 financial year. Last year, 25 547 White high-school pupils matriculated, and a high percentage of them had mathematics, arithmatic and natural science as subjects. In spite of this, only 54 bursaries were awarded in 1983. I should be glad if the hon. the Minister would react to this. I want to ask whether that number cannot be considerably increased.

Finally, I want to point out that the recruitment of local staff is also undertaken at schools. I wish to put it to the hon. the Minister that this recruitment is simply not effective. I want to know whether the hon. the Minister and the department could not give more attention to personal interviews with prospective members of staff, especially with school-leavers, so that the shortages we are experiencing can be reduced and eliminated in this way.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister has said that we are living in the electronic age and that we have to keep up with developments. I should like to suggest two developments in respect of which we have lagged, and to ask the hon. the Minister and his department to consider proposing these matters.

Firstly, there is the question of emergency telephones on major urban freeways. The hon. the Minister replied to a question put to him by me yesterday and said the department would not accede to this request because of the cost of cable work and also because of the problem of vandalism. I want to call upon the hon. the Minister to reconsider his negative attitude towards the installation of these emergency telephones on our major urban freeways. There is a definite need for such a service. Most major Western countries recognize this need and provide such telephones at regular intervals along their major highways.

Breaking down on a freeway can become a very dangerous experience. There was a case last year here in Cape Town of a man whose car broke down at night on the freeway between Cape Town and the D.F. Malan Airport. He stopped another car and asked him for help, but was stabbed to death and robbed. There have been other similar cases in this part of the world. That is why I submit that an emergency telephone service could be of great assistance in cases of this nature.

The two problems which the hon. the Minister cites, I submit, are not insurmountable. Surely, both these problems could be overcome by installing a system of radio telephones, which would require no cables at all. They could be tuned into a receiver at the nearest police station. Such a radio telephone could take the form of a robust speaker mounted on a pole that is well anchored. It could be operated by way of a push-button so as to be vandal resistent. I am sure that the department’s scientific ingenuity could be harnessed to solve this problem along the lines of the general suggestions which I have made.

Another aspect of keeping up with developments in the modern world is the question of cordless telephones. When I was overseas in the USA recently, I was impressed by exciting developments in the field of cordless telephones. These are devices in respect of which a radio signal takes the place of the normal expanding lead which connects the standard telephone handset with the base dialling unit. The cordless unit connects its handset to its base by means of a radio frequency with a range, in the case of the example that I saw, of up to 700 metres. These new devices mean that by carrying the handset, which is often no bigger than a cigarette pack, in one’s pocket, one can make and take calls from anywhere within the vicinity of 700 metres—in any part of one’s home or garden or even on one’s smallholding. The convenience is marvellous and I have no doubt that such devices would be immensely popular in this country if they were offered, even if at a substantial premium on the normal price. I would therefore like to ask the hon. the Minister to clarify his attitude in respect of these new cordless telephones. I am not aware of any good reason why South Africa cannot be right in the forefront of the best such electronic developments that the world has to offer.

Another point I should like to raise is the question of the wages paid to postmen. There is an example of blatant wage discrimination in the department’s wage structure. The reply to written question No. 167 that was answered recently shows that postmen who are not Black and who live in the northern parts of the country have a starting scale of R4 446 rising to R7 644 per annum while the same category of postmen living in the southern part of the country—in the Eastern and Western Cape and the Free State—start on a lower scale of R3 822 per annum. The first question that one has to ask the hon. the Minister is: What is it that is different about a postman in the southern part of the country that he has to start on a lower scale than a postman in the northern part of the country? I am talking about Whites, Coloureds and Indians in this regard. What is even worse, what is it about a Black postman that makes him worthy of less pay than the other two categories I have mentioned in that he only starts on R2 985 per annum rising to a lower level than those to which the other categories can rise, viz. R5 973? It is high time that we closed this sort of gap. It is outrageous that a man who does exactly the same job—toting a bag of post from door to door—should earn less money just because of the colour of his skin.

Another matter I should like to raise is the question of the telephone backlog in the Wynberg magisterial district. A question in this regard was replied to yesterday. For many years the Wynberg magisterial district in particular, which includes my constituency of Constantia and many of the Cape Town southern suburbs, has had to endure one of the worst telephone backlogs in South Africa. The backlog in the Wynberg magisterial district is 15 564 which is 49% of the total backlog for the entire Western Cape, namely, 31 796. The backlog in this one magisterial district is the equivalent of more than one third of the total backlog in the whole of Natal which is 41 856. The department seems to have taken an inordinate length of time to solve this problem which we have been experiencing for years now. I was particularly most unimpressed by the hon. the Minister’s statement in reply to the question yesterday that he could not indicate when almost 5 000 of the over 15 000 backlog would receive their telephones. I should particularly like to know whether the hon. the Minister has ascertained how many of the backlog applications are from aged people, people who need the security of a telephone, and single people. Does the department have a strict procedure of granting such people any priority in meeting these applications? It is a most unfortunate situation for an aged person living in my constituency to be faced with an indefinite wait for a telephone. I think it is high time that the Wynberg magisterial district in particular was tackled on a concerted basis by the department. I believe we should have a backlog Blitzkrieg in that part of the country.

There is another matter which I should like to raise briefly and which also concerns my constituency. I refer to the question of the Bergvliet/Meadowridge post office. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister respectfully to reconsider his refusal to establish a new post office in the vicinity of the Meadowridge shopping complex. This is a request which is well motivated and which comes from the local ratepayers’ association. The Bergvliet post office which was established many, many years ago and before the major commercial development of Meadowridge took place, is no longer located in the commercial hub of the suburb. The parking space at the Bergvliet post office can accommodate about a dozen cars unless one is going to cross the busy main road where there are a few more bays available whereas the Meadowridge shopping complex allows for parking of over 600 cars. Needless to say, most of the local people congregate and do their shopping at Meadowridge. If the department cannot justify a new post office at Meadowridge, then perhaps they can reconsider planning a relocation of the Bergvliet office at the Meadowridge complex in order to improve the convenience of the service in the area.

Mr. Chairman, are not the ways of the official Opposition incomprehensible, particularly if one listened to what the hon. member for Constantia had to say? On the one hand, they oppose the budget—they want nothing to do with the budget—but on the other hand, they ask for extensions, for new post offices, telephones along the main roads and, finally, for salary increases for the staff. They criticize the hon. the Minister and the Government, and yet they do not want to concede that tremendous expansion is taking place here. Surely all this requires capital.

I now wish to confine myself to matters relating to my constituency. Perhaps I am in a less fortunate position than the hon. member for Springs, who has already had a Post Office inaugurated. I invite the hon. the Minister to find a date in his diary so that he can come to Rosettenville to inaugurate a post office. I do not yet have the site for one, nor the money, nor even the plans. Nevertheless, I believe that I am going to have a new post office in the 1984-’85 financial year. I am sure that this will be the case.

But that is blackmail!

No, that is not blackmail; these are facts.

The present post office at Rosettenville is housed in a rented building. Because those offices are small, the staff is working in dreadful conditions at present. At the moment there is no space for further extensions. The department has been looking for a suitable site in Rosettenville for many years. It is extremely difficult to find a suitable site in a very old, established area. Properties are extremely scarce in the central area and seldom, if ever, become available.

I am aware that negotiations have been in progress for many years to find a suitable site. Depending on finance, a prestigious post office could be built in Rosettenville in the 1984-’85 financial year. As far back as 8 November 1952 we established that little post office on a surface area of 173 sq. metres. The present contract expires on 28 February 1984. That means that it will expire in less than a year. The proposed building will fulfil a long-standing need. It will then be possible to provide the public with a better service.

I wish to point out that for 30 years there have been only 200 private post office boxes in the post office at Rosettenville. According to a survey which I discussed the other day with the telephone department and the postmaster of Johannesburg, it appears that the demand in future years will not be 200 private post office boxes, but in fact, between 2 000 and 4 000 such post office boxes. This is how many post office boxes will be needed in that area. One can see how rapidly that area is expanding. In my constituency, Rosettenville has 200 private post office boxes, Suidheuwels has 850, Hillex 250, Springfield 150 and Linmeyer 100, a total of 1 550 post office boxes. In Rosettenville alone a maximum of 4 000 private post office boxes will eventually have to be installed in order to meet the demand. Already there are two delivery depots serving Rosettenville. Booysens has 24 postmen, and 20 000 letters are delivered from there daily. Suidheuwels has 20 postmen, and 15 000 letters are delivered from there daily. This means that in that area, which comprises a large part of my constituency, 35 000 letters are delivered daily by 44 postmen.

It was interesting to hear the other day that the post office in Johannesburg alone deals with 4 million postal articles per day, but at Christmas time the figure rises to 8 million postal articles per day.

I should also like to refer to the staff in my constituency. Rosettenville, which is expanding so tremendously, has only 9 people working in the post office, Suidheuwels has 7, Springfield 6, Motortown 11, Hillex three, Townsview three and Linmeyer two, a total of 41. The post office staff work a 42-hour week, two hours longer than Public Servants. Therefore they have inadequate facilities and their working conditions are really inadequate.

I should now like to refer to the Post Office at Townsview. The site concerned has no business rights. Usually a lease is signed by the Post Office for nine years and 11 months, but in this case the period of contract varies from two to three years, which creates a great deal of inconvenience for everyone. That is why I should very much like a full-fledged Post Office service to be established at Rosettenville.

At the Rosettenville Post Office alone 780 pensioners receive their pensions every month, whereas at Townsview the number is 240; in other words, a total of 1 020 people in that small area in the vicinity of Rosettenville. This is a matter which demands urgent attention.

I am extremely pleased that a lessee service centre has been established in the area in question on 1 hectare of land which has been set aside, and from which Post Office staff can carry out installation and maintenance services.

What is the position with regard to the provision of telephones in Rosettenville? In Rosettenville alone there are 8 204 working lines, with 82 call offices. There is a long waiting list, and the exchange is already closed. All the present applicants in the surrounding areas will be provided with services during this year except in Rosettenville. That entire southern area surrounding Rosettenville has more than 29 000 lines with 365 call offices. Therefore one can see how it is expanding.

I also made inquiries at the Johannesburg City Council to see what the growth of the White population south of the M2 freeway is and what the growth north of the Ml freeway is. The White growth rate south of the M2 was 8% between 1975 and 1982, whereas north of the Ml it was only 1% or 2%. Therefore one can see why the members of the PFP are becoming wide-eyed, since it seems as though there are no longer so many Progs in the north, whereas more and more Nationalists are settling south of the line. [Interjections.] Bearing all this in mind, I wish to praise the Post Office for the advertising they have done this year, particularly on television. This year the Post Office has spent an amount of R1 221 000 on films and other methods of advertising. I wish to thank them for collecting R4 million in respect of television licences alone, and for paying out R2 280 000 in pensions. The metered calls in the Republic amounted to R839 200 000 and overseas calls amounted to a phenomenal R268 500 000. This is an indication of the tremendous task which the exchanges perform, and for which they also need capital.

We are also proud of the savings services of the Post Office. I am extremely proud that I can invest my money at the Post Office. I also wish to advise hon. members, if they do not want to be cheated and if they want a reasonable rate of interest, to go to the Post Office here in the Parliament buildings where a variety of services are offered.

In this way we can offer the Post Office a tremendous asset, and it is tax free. The interest does not go to the Minister of Finance. Therefore this is an extremely sound method of enriching ourselves. Investments in savings in the Post Office represent only 3,7% of all savings, but the current savings accounts already amount to R272 million, the Savings Bank Certificates total R780 millon, and the National Savings Certificates, R495,7 million. This gives a total of R1 547,7 million in investments. The interest on investments alone which, as the budget indicates, are going to be paid out, amounts to R39 125 950. Therefore one can see that these are very big investments with big interest payments.

I sincerely hope that the hon. the Minister will come to Rosettenville to open a Post Office there. We already have Santarama, the mini-town where money is being collected for people who suffer from tuberculosis. There is also a water organ at Wemmerpan, and even horse races at Turffontein, which also falls within my constituency. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister replied at length to many matters. Unfortunately his time was limited and there are a few matters to which he did not reply. I should be very pleased if the hon. the Minister would find the time to reply to my question concerning video conferences.

In the Committee State hon. members usually all make a plea for their constituencies, and I shall refer to the post office at Sunnyside in a moment. However, the CP represents the whole of South Africa and therefore we look far and wide. We also consider the Free State, if perhaps the Free State MP’s are not present. They are running around taking part in election campaigns in Waterberg and Soutpansberg. [Interjections.] I wish to refer briefly to the post office at Welkom. It is not always so easy to render the same sound service at all the post offices. Nor can the top management of the Post Office see to everything. That is why it is fitting that we should bring matters to the attention of the hon. the Minister here.

There in Sunnyside … [Interjections.]

I wish to refer to the post office at Welkom, since I think that post office needs special attention. For example, there are no telephone directories available to the public at that post office. They have been removed. This is a problem, since additional telephone directories are not readily available. On behalf of the voters of Welkom, I wish to ask that this matter be investigated. [Interjections.] There is also absolute crowding out by the Blacks there. [Interjections.] Just look how hurt those hon. members are. That is not the only post office where there are problems. There are also problems at other post offices, far and wide. We do request that this matter be looked into. I think this is very fair. This is constructive criticism. It is in everyone’s interests. It does not matter whether it is in the Free State, in the Transvaal, in Natal, or here. I just want to ask that these matters be considered.

Another matter I should like to refer to, is the facilities for staff at post offices. It is true that many buildings are very old and do not always have the necessary facilities. Some of the buildings are small and do not have air-conditioning systems. There is insufficient capital available to rectify all these matters overnight. Nevertheless I request the hon. the Minister and his top managements to investigate these cases. An example is the Hopetown exchange. It is an old building and the air-conditioning is inadequate, with the result that people have to endure unnecessary heat. It really gets very hot in summer. No one can help that, but it is true. Consideration ought to be given to buildings which do not have proper air-conditioning.

On the other hand, there are also post offices which are extremely cold in winter. This would not entail a heavy capital outlay, but I do request that where necessary, carpets be laid—this does not apply to all post offices—for the convenience of the staff who have to stand all day. It is not easy for a member of staff to stand on a cold floor all day.

The hon. member for Springs asked that flats be built on top of post offices. I should like to support this suggestion of his. However, there is another matter for which I wish to make a plea. I wish to refer in particular in this regard to the post office in Jeppe Street in Sunnyside. At the time the post office was built, I asked for underground parking to be provided. It is true that underground parking is an expensive item, but the congestion of people and vehicles at that post office in Sunnyside—it is a busy place—results in people who want to visit the post office, not being able to find a parking space. An underground parking space could have been constructed. Parking could even have been let. The space on the northern side of the building has been beautifully laid out for the sake of the appearance of the building. However, it would have been more practical for the whole section north of the building to be used for additional parking. We must take care not to make our buildings too beautiful and too luxurious, but not effective enough. I wish to ask that when new buildings are constructed, apart from their aesthetic appeal and beauty, their effectiveness and practicality also be considered, particularly as far as parking is concerned. Of course, parking is a tremendous problem in the cities and buildings in South Africa.

I now come to the question of the printing of telephone directories. According to the department’s annual report, we make a reasonable profit on our telephone directories. I should like to know from the hon. the Minister who prints the telephone directories, how they are distributed, whether tenders are invited and how they are allocated.

But you were the chairman of the study group. You ought to know.

Even if I were chairman of everything, that does not mean anything. That hon. Minister has been the chairman of many things, and there are many things He does not know. One of the first things he knows is that he is asking a stupid question. The question of the printing of telephone directories varies from day to day. In the past there was a tremendous struggle between Perskor and Nasionale Pers concerning the printing of telephone directories. We should like to know what the position is now and what is going to happen in future. Which one of these two groups prints the telephone directory at present, or are they printed by another organization? Are tenders awarded annually, or is a contract valid for two or three years? It would be interesting to know. Even if I did know, the public of South Africa does not. Since the hon. the Minister said that I ought to have known this, can he, a member of the Cabinet, tell me who undertakes the printing?

I do not control the Post Office. Rather ask me about my own department.

The hon. the Minister is pretending to be extremely erudite, but he does not know what is going on. Yet he is a member of the Cabinet.

[Inaudible.]

The hon. the Minister must not try to be clever.

I should like to refer to one more matter, viz. solar energy. I have in my hand the reply of the hon. the Minister of Mineral and Energy Affairs to my question No. 478 yesterday. My question was—

Our normal coal reserves are 113 329 million tons, of which only 50,8% is exploitable. Therefore, in spite of those large reserves, not everything is exploitable. That is why we should already be giving serious consideration to making more use of solar power. It is true—and I wish to emphasize this—that in its report the department specifically refers to solar power and to the possibility of utilizing it. One finds this on page 12 of the annual report. I think this is one of the fine things which the Post Office is undertaking. We on the CP side want to ask the Post Office to make its contribution and to do its share by ascertaining to what extent the Post Office can utilize solar power and how this can be further developed. The report deals with various experiments, for example, video conferences and that kind of thing, and I wish to emphasize the point that if the department has to carry out an experiment, it should do so with regard to the exploitation of solar power. If we in South Africa, can progress to the extent that apart from our coal and other sources of energy, we could use solar power as well, then we shall have made very good progress.

Of course, there is another form of energy we could use, but that is still far in the future. The scientists will have to do this for us. I am referring to sea power. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I take pleasure in speaking after the hon. member for Sunnyside. I do not wish to react to the last part of his speech. I think the hon. the Minister will do so. However, what I do want to react to, is the first half of his speech in which he departed from a convention in this House by sticking his nose into constituency matters of the hon. member for Welkom. I think the hon. member for Welkom is competent enough, as well as man enough, to state the case of his own constituency here. However, I shall say nothing further about the hon. member for Sunnyside.

This afternoon I should like to address a word of congratulations to our new hon. Minister of Posts and Telecommunications, Dr. Munnik. As a medical man, I believe that he will keep the department healthy, and if a problem should arise, he will make a rapid diagnosis.

Today I also wish to say a word about former Minister Hennie Smit. During the time he was Minister of Posts and Telecommunications we received a post office at Wolmaransstad, and I therefore wish to thank him most sincerely for the assistance he gave me in that respect.

Then I should also like to thank the Postmaster-General and his staff most sincerely for the service they are rendering, particularly the parliamentary staff. If one approaches these people with a problem they are prepared to assist one at once and one receives a reply very quickly. At times, it is “no” and if one approaches them again, they are prepared to assist one a second time.

Posts and Telecommunications in our country has developed into one of the best services in the world. To illustrate this I could once again mention a few figures here for the sake of the record. During the past year 246 000 telephone services have been provided, the most ever in one year. This brings the installed telephone services in our country to a total of 3,2 million. Data services have increased by 38%. The hon. the Minister also mentioned the videotex service which has been established, and the first optical-fibre cable system which has been implemented.

In my opinion, the tariff increases were quite realistic, particularly when one considers the heavy demand for services. I also wish to avail myself of this opportunity of expressing a word of thanks on behalf of the social pensioners. I have a large group of these people in my own constituency. I wish to express my gratitude for the fact that although the telephone services and installation costs have been increased to R75 for the ordinary person, the social pensioner is being assisted in that he only pays R25, including the transfer of his telephone.

However, what I really want to plead for here this afternoon is a matter which, I believe, is extremely important. I am referring to that group of pensioners which does not receive social pensions. There are a number of these people in our community, particularly in my own constituency, people who receive a smaller pension than the amount of the social pension. Therefore I wish to ask the hon. the Minister whether he could not accommodate that group of people, people whose pensions are smaller than those of social pensioners, in this same system? Could they not also be allowed to pay R25 for the installation of a new telephone service, or for the transfer of an existing telephone service?

I also wish to say something further about the agency services which the Post Office renders to other Government departments. During the past financial year the Post Office collected R1,5 million on behalf of the SABC from a sale of television licences. The SABC’s total revenue from the sale of television licences amounted to R54 million. The Post Office collected an amount of R433 million on behalf of the Treasury through the sale of all kinds of bonds. The Post Office also paid out an amount of R541 million on behalf of the Department of Health and Welfare by way of pensions. This is a commendable service which the Department of Posts and Telecommunications renders to other Government departments in this respect.

Since I am speaking about this matter, I also wish to refer to postal agency offices which are found mainly in the rural areas. There are two of these postal agency offices in my constituency, viz. at Glaudina and at Bosmansrus. These postal agencies render an extremely important service to the inhabitants of those small communities. However, the premises from which these services are rendered are not always satisfactory. They are usually old and dilapidated buildings. I wish to inform the hon. the Minister that it so happens that I am aware of the rules which apply in this regard. Of course, the onus does not rest on the Post Office to maintain and take care of these buildings. The onus rests with the postal agent to do so himself. However, that postal agent does not always honour his undertaking to look after the building concerned. As a result, the image of the Post Office itself is harmed.

I wish to make a suggestion in this regard. I wish to ask the hon. the Minister whether we cannot render a service or assistance with regard to the maintenance of the buildings in which those postal agencies are housed. For example, this could be done by including the cost of maintaining the postal agency in the salary of the postal agent concerned.

Furthermore, I wish to say something about manual exchanges. In the annual report of the Postmaster-General I noticed that during the financial year under review it was expected that 33 manual exchanges would be replaced by automatic exchanges, whereas four smaller manual exchanges were to be closed down and those particular services transferred to neighbouring automatic exchanges. This will mean that approximately 28 000 telephone services, including extension lines and miscellaneous services connected with manual exchanges, are now going to be automated. Approximately 93,11% of the Republic’s total number of telephone terminals will then have automatic services. This fact proves that sound progress is being made with automation, particularly in respect of the telephone services in the rural areas. I wonder whether the hon. the Minister could tell me what the projections of the Department of Posts and Telecommunications are with regard to the automation of telephone services in my own constituency.

Of course, it is also true that as soon as a manual exchange telephonist hears that that particular exchange is going to become automatic, she begins to look for another position. This has happened in many cases. The result is that there is a critical demand for new staff, whereas the services themselves are also affected in the process. I wish to make a suggestion in this regard and ask the hon. the Minister to investigate the posibility of an arrangement whereby those working at manual exchanges could receive their salaries two months in advance after the day on which automation is effected. In this way those who work there can be given some security. After the date on which automation takes place those staff members concerned then have two months in which they can seek another position at their own leisure. Meanwhile they are rendering the community a sound service until the last day.

There is just another final matter I should like to raise and I wish to conclude with this. I wish to pay tribute to the Post Office worker in South Africa. However, I wish to pay special tribute to the Post Office workers in my own constituency. Of course, I must point out that they are all NP supporters. Interjections.] When one has mentioned all the technical achievements of this department and praised all that this departent has achieved, I believe its biggest asset remains its workers. I wish to conclude my speech with a few verses by Langenhoven. Langenhoven once composed a little poem about the staff of the Post Office. He was quite correct. These are people who render a competent and friendly service. Langenhoven said—

Mr. Speaker, I shall not reply to what was said by the hon. member for Schweizer-Reneke as I am sure that the hon. the Minister will reply to the points that he raised.

There were two aspects of the hon. the Minister’s reply to the Second Reading debate today about which we in this party are disappointed. The first aspect is the refusal of the hon. the Minister to establish a financial study group to go into the question of the financing of the Post Office. The point that I want to make here is that this request is in no way a reflection upon the ability of the hon. the Minister. Neither is it intended to reflect upon the ability of the staff or the way in which the Post Office is being run. It is merely a common sense request. All large organizations have outside consultants whom they engage to examine their systems and advise them from time to time. Why should the Post Office be any different to any other large organization? I heard on the news this morning that the hon. the Minister of Mineral and Energy Affairs had appointed a study group to go into the affairs of Escom. If that hon. Minister has taken this step, why cannot the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications do the same? I have always assumed and I am quite sure that Escom is a very well run organization and is staffed by efficient personnel. However, there is always room for somebody from outside who can take a more objective look at a situation than somebody who has been there and been involved with it for some time.

The second aspect about which we are disappointed is the hon. the Minister’s response to the question of PABX systems in South Africa. There are five companies at the moment to whom the Post Office has given permission to produce and market these particular systems in South Africa. In order to do so, they have involved themselves in considerable investments in setting up factories for the production of this equipment. The Post Office has now placed an order with one particular company without putting that order out to tender and, as far as the running Post Office affairs is concerned, I believe that is an incorrect step to have taken.

Two questions arise from this. In the first instance, should the Post Office really be in the field of supplying and installing small PABX systems? By all accounts the Post Office is short of staff and are battling to fill posts in other sections of the service. Why cannot they leave this particular aspect to private enterprise in line with the Government’s philosophy in regard to private enterprise at the moment?

The other point that arises out of this is: On what basis will the Post Office now compete with the remaining companies in the field? Will it undercut those other companies? Will it supply these installations at cost? Will it subsidize the installation of PABX systems by offsetting the cost of these against some other service which the Post Office renders?

A further aspect with which I wish to deal is the Post Office Telebank. We believe that this is a most welcome innovation in South Africa. I notice from the annual report of the Postmaster-General that there will be 200 counter terminals by the end of 1983 and that it is also the intention to share terminal facilities with banks and building societies. I believe that there are many advantages that can flow from this and I also believe that the sooner this system is tested fully and put into operation, the better.

I should like to mention a few of the advantages that I foresee in this connection. Obviously, from the Post Office side there will be a vast saving in staff and an increase in efficiency. As far as the public are concerned, those of us who have these facilities know what a convenience it is to have them. There is also the added security that one does not have to carry around large sums of money on one’s person. Of course there are other services that could also be offered— perhaps the hon. the Minister has these in mind—one for example is the paying telephone accounts. That is the one that comes immediately to mind. Another possibility is where the Post Office acts as an agent for the payment of pensions. Would it perhaps not be easier if all pensioners had a telebank account. Then, at their own convenience, they could go along to a telebank terminal and draw their pension, or if these terminals were linked to banks and building societies, they could transfer amounts between different accounts as they wanted to. We have all seen the long queues in front of pension counters. This would save pensioners a lot of problems, as well as saving the post office staff a lot of time. That is why we welcome the introduction of this system, and I certainly hope the Post Office will exploit the full potential of this system.

The next question I should like to raise this afternoon is one which I am sure the hon. the Minister is tired of hearing about. I am referring to the question of the telephone backlog. Coming from Natal, I should like to raise this problem in relation to Natal. I am not saying that in Natal we are any worse off or better off than any other province or any other particular area, but what does concern me—and I hope the hon. the Minister will take note of this—is that at the moment Natal is showing a faster growth rate than most other areas in the country. In addition to normal industry that is establishing itself, let me refer to the report of the chairman of the Decentralization Board. This report shows that the two areas in South Africa which have attracted the most new industries are the Isithebe-Richards Bay area and the Pietermaritzburg area. What concerns me therefore is that the backlog in Natal is going to get worse. Nothing is more important to any business than an efficient, up-to-date communications system linking it with the outside world, and its customers. I therefore hope that matters will not deteriorate any further in Natal. The question that still remains, however, is that a telephone backlog in South Africa still exists. We seem to accept this as a permanent feature of the system. I have seen no plans anywhere to indicate how the Post Office intends eliminating the telephone backlog.

The next issue I should like to deal with this afternoon involves the question of staff. I notice that the Post Office has a staff complement of some 80 000. The first point is that last year there were 21 764 resignations. In other words, there was a staff turnover of nearly 27%. I can only assume that the bulk of this was at the lower end of the career ladder, people doing the more routine, day-to-day jobs such as manning counters and so on. I cannot see how it is possible to maintain an efficient service with such a staff turnover. I shall come back to this point in a minute. Another point about the staff complement is that of the total staff complement of 80 000, some 45 000 are Whites and some 35 000 Blacks. Amongst the Whites, 24 000 are in the salary range above R8 500, whilst amongst the Blacks only 2 500 are in the salary range above R8 500. The point that arises out of this is that most of the senior administrative staff come from the White group. The hon. the Minister mentioned in his speech, and it comes out very clearly in the report, that the Post Office is experiencing serious staff shortages. For example, in the technical staff complement of 4 600 learner technicians, 651 are Coloureds, 321 are Asians and 766 are Blacks. The point I am getting at is that in future more and more Coloureds, Indians and Blacks are going to join the staff and more and more Coloureds, Indians and Blacks are going to move up the ranks into higher and higher positions in the Post Office. This will just have to happen otherwise the service will deteriorate.

Three points arise from this. The first one is that if the hon. the Minister wants to solve his problems of staff shortages, this process will obviously have to be speeded up. The ratio of Whites to non-Whites in Post Office employ is far higher than the ratio in the private sector. It is top heavy with White employees if one compares it with our population composition. Secondly barriers to progress up the ranks will have to be removed. Any man who joins an organization likes to feel that he can progress and get ahead in the same way as anybody else. [Time expired.)

Mr. Chairman, I hope the hon. member will pardon me if I do not react to his speech.

We on this side of the Committee understand the problems of the Post Office, because on the one hand the Post Office must and has kept abreast of technological developments which have taken place. This has enabled the Post Office to provide the most modern services to the community. Today South Africa has a telecommunications system which compares favourably with the best in the world. In addition, the demand for services is increasing every year and as the standard of living of our people rises, more and more demands are being made for services. On the other hand, over the past 15 applying for these services to an increasing extent, as they become able to afford these services. On the other hand, over the pas 15 or 16 years there has never been a fall-off in the demand for the services of the Post Office, not even in times of economic recession. This actually creates serious problems because major expansion and modernization programmes must be introduced even during recessions. These expansion programmes make tremendous demands on physical and financial capabilities and as a result the Post Office cannot take advantage of recessions to eliminate backlogs. In future even greater demands will of course be made on the Post Office to tackle even larger expansion programmes to meet the demand. This also applies to the staff.

As far as the staff is concerned, we are grateful that staff are coming back to the Post Office, but this in turn will naturally result in our expenditure on staff increasing considerably. The increase in staff may be ascribed to the security which the department offers staff. The people who are returning have already been trained and we can use them very well. We must have the staff to do the work, particularly when there is an upswing in the economy.

It is true that we are creating growth points. We are decentralizing our industries. This is all very well, but what industrialist will start a factory in the decentralized area if there are no telephone and telex services available? We would be living in a dream world if we were to expect the private sector to invest in growth points if a sophisticated infrastructure has not been created beforehand. However, the Post Office is expected to be ready to provide those services when that development takes place. The Post Office must make investments long before it can expect any return on them.

This brings me to the provision of telephone and telex services in my area. I am referring to the Witwatersrand in general and my constituency in particular. For me as the member of Parliament for Kempton Park, an area with large industrial and residential expansions, this remains a source of serious concern. I am grateful that the department has provided me with a document in which this backlog is elucidated. However, I do not want to deal with this now. I am also grateful for the positive steps being taken to eliminate the backlog. I know that some of the officials will smile at what I am going to say now. They will think that I am merely going to repeat what I said last year. But I simply have to do it anyway. I really want to make a serious appeal to the hon. the Minister and the management of the Post Office again to go into the problems we are facing there. A telephone is no longer a luxury. It is a necessity. Because the backlog is tremendous and is building up, I should like to know from the hon. the Minister if he does not think this could be solved by the use of more mobile exchanges. I am seeking a solution. Would it not help if we could bring relief by means of mobile exchanges until such times as new exchanges can be built and existing exchanges can be enlarged? I am merely mentioning this because I realize that we have a tremendous problem here, a problem that must be solved soon.

In conclusion I want to say that I was very interested to hear about the new coin-operated telephones the Post Office is experimenting with and is developing. I hope that this type of telephone will be installed, inter alia, at Jan Smuts Airport. I have ascertained that from June of next year the new coin-operated telephones will be installed at airports, railway stations and other high risk areas where vandalism frequently occurs. These telephones come in two models. There is a wall model and a table model. The wall telephone has a coin slot that can take 10c, 20c, 50c and R1 pieces. The coins are deposited before the number is dialled and the repayment of the unused part of the amount deposited takes place automatically. The telephone has a digital display unit which, inter alia, indicates that a coin has to be deposited and the available credit with regard to the amount deposited. While the call is being made, the person can therefore see how much money he has already used. The final credit is also indicated and automatically paid back after the call has been completed.

In addition, the coin operated telephones are resitant to vandalism. The apparatus also has a follow-up call facility which enables the person who wants to make more than one call to use the credit remaining from the previous call for the next call he wants to make. He is also able to dial direct both nationally and internationally and to make operator-dialled calls. As I said, a table model is also available. This model is also being tested and it is hoped it will be available next year. The table model will be available at shops, hotels and boarding houses and has the same features as the wall model, except that it does not have the vandal-proof coin box. I am looking forward to the installation of these telephones. This is a further demonstration of the fact that our post and telecommunication services always remain at the forefront in developing new and modern systems. There has never been stagnation in the Post Office. There has always been something new.

Before I resume my seat, I should like to express my appreciation to the postmaster and his staff at the exchange here in Parliament.

Hear, hear!

I want the staff in the telephone exchange and those working in the postal services section at Parliament to know that we appreciate the wonderful service they are giving us. Hon. members can sometimes act in an eccentric way. They are sometimes difficult people. In spite of this, we always receive a friendly and thorough service. Mr. Chairman, I can assure you that we are grateful for the work being done.

Mr. Chairman, in nine years of partaking in the Post Office debate I do not think that I have ever witnessed a Minister—I think I have seen six or seven of them—barraged and bombarded by the questions which this hon. the Minister has had thrown at him this afternoon. I can only say to him: “Vasbyt, there are only four more quick five minute speeches and then this will all be over”. I think it will take him a month to reply to all the questions.

I have a couple of points to raise with the hon. the Minister. The first point is of relatively minor importance, but perhaps it is something which is causing a little confusion. I am referring to the possible misunderstanding—I have received a few letters in this connection—of the information contained in the new postal code book for 1982. On page 2 it refers to automatic mail sorting and it tells of the introduction shortly of optical character reading. It then goes on to give instructions as to how a letter should be addressed. It says that addresses must be typewritten or computer printed. It also gives the dimensions, etc. The next point mentioned is—

What I am trying to put across is that the general public—I think every member of the public is entitled to a copy of this book, and they ask for it—are under the impression that they are not going to have letters accepted unless the address is typewritten on the envelope. I think this is something which, when the book is reprinted, should be looked at because there is some confusion.

I now come to another issue which I want to raise with the hon. the Minister. This has to do with unit charges for a local call in an urban area. I think this is a time when one would want to overhead projector to illustrate what I am driving at here. In every city—I wish to specifically talk about Durban now—there are local exchanges, smaller exchanges through which calls are routed to the main exchange. If you live on one area you may have to pay for two calls when you dial into the city centre or, in some instances, when you are a little further away, for instance in Hillcrest or Kloof, you have to pay for three calls. At the time when a unit was 4 cents, a person was paying a premium of another 4 cents to dial from, for example, Glenashley to Durban. This is a suburb of Durban; I lived there. One would pay an additional 4 cents for a call to the grocer because most people—this is the sort of situation I want the hon. the Minister to imagine—who live in that suburb trade in the city. Four cents would be the premium you would pay. But now, with the increase in tariffs, we are faced with a situation where the unit charge goes up to 7 cents. Because you pay for two units it doubles and the premium that you are paying is also now 7 cents. This, I think, is asking a bit much of the subscriber who, after all, is living in the immediate area. Rates are usually clearly set out in most telephone directories. I have the Durban telephone director in my hand and it shows that if one lives in a certain area and one dials into another area, it costs one either one, two or three units per call. I should like to respectfully suggest that the time has come for us to introduce half unit stages. We must reduce that gap and the premium which is paid and perhaps charge 1½, double, 2\ or three units. One finds that a person living very close to Durban is paying more for a call than a person who lives in, say Pietermaritzburg because of the growing differential due to the fact that the unit cost is doubled on each occasion. I regret that I do not have the time to take that argument further.

I would like to express my appreciation to the entire team in Natal, to its new regional director who, I am happy to say, is a Van der Merwe—it is good to have a Van der Merwe in Natal—and particularly to his deputy, Mr. Pine Pienaar, who is in charge of telecommunications. These gentlemen—and during recesses when one has many, many problems to take to them—are nothing but courteous and of assistance to one. We in these benches particularly as we are mostly Natalians, are deeply appreciative of all that they do for us. Any representations that we make to them during a recess are handled speedily and efficiently.

Mr. Chairman, I have only a few minutes available to me, and I am sorry that I have to spend some of that time replying to the hon. member for Sunny-side. This hon. member wanted to “help” me, but the biggest problem which he or his informant was faced with was that it so happened that there was no telephone directory at that moment. If that hon. member wanted to help me, it was a feeble attempt. It was really not helpful. It is a good thing that that the hon. member is busying himself here in the Free State, for up North, where the by-elections are being held, he would simply bungle everything, as he did in Parys. So his party leaders should rather keep him out of there. The other day the hon. member for Rissik also spoke about a railway line to Hoopstad. Therefore they are giving attention to the Free State. But I think this is a sign of a guilty conscience, because they occupy NP seats, and now they feel that they must go and work elsewhere. I shall leave the hon. member at that, for my time is limited.

I appreciate the problems of the hon. the Minister and his department, but an indispensable service, namely the telephone service, in my constituency, Welkom, is not satisfactory. I am bound to say that. In spite of the fact that the local officials do everything in their power to provide a satisfactory service, we are not obtaining the desired results. The trouble is that when one is trying to make a trunk call, it is sometimes only at the tenth attempt that one succeeds in getting the telephone to ring on the other side. Often, too, one gets the wrong number, and sometimes in a completely different place from where one wants to be. I wrongly concluded that the equipment there was not being properly and regularly serviced, but upon enquiry I was told that in fact the lines were being overloaded. I appreciate the fact that a contractor is already expanding the exchange, but my request is that the section which has already been completed should be commissioned now in an attempt to alleviate this problem. As I understand the position, the contractor apparently intends to complete the entire exchange before it is put into commission. The major problem is with regard to the exchange for trunk-calls. This is causing many problems at the moment.

I do not wish to generalize today, but the impression is created that the Government sometimes underestimates the development potential of the Free State gold-fields and that plans are not drawn up in good time for the services required there. I may mention that as far as water is concerned, a similar situation obtains. I am convinced that the hon. the Minister will adopt a sympathetic approach and that he and the department will consider this request to improve conditions there. I just want to add in passing that this region, in which approximately 13 gold-mines are situated, is one of the geese that lay the golden eggs for the hon. the Minister of Finance. I believe that the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications will help us to keep that goose alive.

As I have said, I appreciate the hon. the Minister’s problems. We realize that he is doing everything in his power to provide the best service to the public, together with his department and the staff of the Post Office. In my own constituency, I believe, there is really cause for concern as far as businessmen are concerned. It is particularly inconvenient when an organization does not have proper facilities for dialling numbers in other centres. For this reason, I hope that the hon. the Minister will give attention to this matter.

Mr. Chairman, I want to warn the hon. member for Welkom that he must not start getting nervous when some hon. members of the CP start busying themselves in his constituency as well. I understand that agents have been appointed to do certain work in our constituencies, too. [Interjections.] I just want to point out that if certain hon. members of the NP are not doing a proper job in their constituencies, they will certainly not be able to blame us if we make certain pleas on behalf of them in their constituencies. [Interjections.]

Order!

Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank the Department of Post and Telecommunications. Unfortunately, I cannot thank the hon. the Minister, because he was not yet in charge of this portfolio when the things happened for which I want to convey my thanks. I want to thank the department very sincerely for the automatic telephone exchange that has been installed at Kuruman. In that developing area, this step forward on the part of the Post Office was of the greatest significance. A fine and modern complex of buildings has been erected there. The whole enterprise was an injection which will help this developing area in South Africa to make even more rapid progress.

While I am thanking the department for the automatic telephone exchange at Kuruman, however, I also wish to pay tribute to those who operate the manual exchanges in South Africa. They are friendly, helpful people, who are always prepared to be of assistance and who put through one’s telephone calls promptly and with a friendly smile, no matter where. While I am on the subject of friendly people, I believe we cannot omit to convey our sincere thanks to the ladies who operate the telephone exchange in the parliamentary building. These ladies, as well as the gentleman who serve there at night, render a fine and efficient service to the House of Assembly. For that we want to thank them sincerely.

As the hon. member for Springs rightly said, the people who operate the manual exchanges in the rural areas really serve as an information bureau for the community. These are the people who are consulted by everyone in the neighbourhood when they want to know how much rain has fallen in certain places, for example, and whether it has rained at all. Usually, too, they can tell everyone who is ill, who has died, when a funeral is being held, whether so and so is at home, and if not, where he or she is at that moment. With the elimination of the manual exchanges, part of our national culture is being destroyed as it were. This is the practice of listening in on other people’s conversations. To many people living in the rural areas, this has been a wonderful way of pasing the time over the years. Many people had a chair standing permanently next to the telephone, where they could relax while indulging in this form of culture.

This reminds me of one old lady. The story is told of old Tant Helen, who used to listen in regularly when the neighbours were talking on the telephone. Tant Helen was around 70 years of age. One day, while two neighbours were talking, they heard Tant Helen breathing quite audibly into the telephone, and then the one said to the other: By the way, have you heard that Tant Helen is pregnant again? whereupon Tant Helen said: But you are lying in your teeth! [Interjections.] These entertaining stories added to the colourful nature of these manual exchanges.

I also wish to thank the department very sincerely for the neat and efficient new post office which has opened its doors in Kuruman. It makes a fine contribution to the appearance of this town. It also provides a service which is worthy of this developing town. However, I want to suggest that in planning new post offices, the architects of the post office should perhaps be less generous in providing benches in those post offices. We have the situation that very comfortable small benches were placed in the foyer of the post office at Kuruman. Unfortunately, these benches, which were perhaps placed there with the best of intentions, have become the meeting-place of layabouts and people who come to eat their fish and chips there at lunchtime.

Wrenchville, our Coloured neighbouring township, has also recently obtained its own post office. Wrenchville is a Coloured township which its Coloured inhabitants are very proud of. It is also a township which has its own shops, butchery, café and two-star hotel today, as well as its own post office with a Coloured postmaster.

What about its own flag? [Interjections.]

I just want to say to the hon. member who has referred to its own flag that one of these days I shall see him hoist the white flag in the Uitenhage region when the CP has dealt with him. [Interjections.] Since Wrenchville has its own post office with its own Coloured postmaster, we also want to ask whether it is not possible for the telephone subscribers of Wrenchville to be listed in the telephone directory under the name of Wrenchville.

The hon. member wants telephone directory apartheid. [Interjections.]

Oh, that poor Chief Whip! The hon. Chief Whip is trying to ridicule this, but we have here a proud township which he is trying to belittle. [Interjections.] I want to say to the hon. Chief Whip that he must stop trying to belittle these Coloured townships because he wants their inhabitants to live in the residential areas of White towns only. This Coloured post office in this township was provided at my request. [Interjections.] My convictions are still Nationalist. I have not become a liberal and begun to advocate political integration. [Interjections.]

May I ask a question, please?

Is the hon. member prepared to answer a question?

No, Sir, I do not feel like replying to a question by that hon. member. I should very much like to recommend that the provision of separate post offices in adjoining Black and Brown townships should be accorded very high priority in the planning of the Post Office. I also want to recommend that we should rather build post offices within the residential areas of the Coloured people in the Coloured and Black townships adjoining the White towns, in order to give the Coloured people an opportunity to be promoted to the position of post master within their own areas. Kuruman is a splendid example of where the Coloured people have their own post office with all facilities in their own township, which is appreciated by these people. In Bophuthatswana, our neighbouring country, the Black people also have their own post office, which renders an important service to them in their own community and in their own country. We can be on good terms as neighbours and we can develop alongside one another. I express my sincere thanks for the services provided by the Post Office.

Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to react to the speech made by the hon. member for Kuruman, except for saying that if the hon. member is alleging that the hon. Chief Whip on this side is a person who would belittle the Coloured people, I think he is mistaken. He is probably the very last person who could be accused of belittling the Coloured people in particular.

I want to talk about something else in the three minutes available to me. Over the past year in particular I have come to realize the enormous degree of vandalism which occurs in our call-boxes in towns and cities in particular. One has only to inspect most of these call-boxes and one will see that if there is a telephone directory at all, it is in a sorry state. If one does not know the number one wishes to dial from such a public telephone, one’s attempts to find it in the directory will be in vain, because it will be torn and battered.

This type of vandalism must cost the Post Office literally tens of thousands of rands every year. Some of these public telephones are not only attacked by vandals, but are also polluted in all kinds of ways by certain people, including people in respect of whom some parties in this country are always raising a hue and cry because of the injustice that is being done to them. They also clamour for the preservation of those people’s rights. However, I want to make it quite clear that this kind of pollution and vandalism knows no colour barrier.

I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether he and his department could not consider making greater use of cafés and other business enterprises which are open until late at night for the purpose of providing public telephone facilities on those premises. I am thinking in particular of the smaller cafés such as those of the Greeks, the Portuguese and the Indians. Of course, it could be any other kind of business enterprise which is open until late at night. I believe that public telephones could just as well be installed on the premises of such businesses. In fact, I think it would be much better than the existing service in call-boxes. It would mean that at least 60% to 80% of the vandalism would be eliminated. In this way, a much better service would be made available to the telephone user. This would save the Post Office tens of thousands of rands. I want to say in all fairness that in these times of escalating costs and a high rate of inflation, any business or Government organization which operates on a profit-making basis should, in my opinion, regard it as priority No. 1 to try to economize wherever possible. I believe that in this way, the Post Office could contribute something and could do something positive to help us economize.

Mr. Chairman, I think hon. members will agree with me that it is impossible for me to reply to such a debate in only 15 minutes. I do not like to talk about the rules for debates but I do hope that an amendment may be made in terms of which the time allowed for my reply to the Second Reading debate can be reduced in order to leave me more time to reply to the very important matters raised in the Committee Stage. The hon. member for Johannesburg North asked about 14 questions. One of the other hon. members had questions on the Order Paper. All those questions were answered, but he repeated all those questions in the course of the debate. I think this is a rather difficult situation.

What do you expect him to do then?

When a question has been put on the Order Paper, I think it is unreasonable to put that question again in this debate, because the hon. member is just wasting a person’s time.

*I should like to come now to the hon. member for Kimberley South. Perhaps I should deal first with some of the matters which do not require a lengthy reply. I agree with him wholeheartedly, but it is not tens of thousands but hundreds of thousands of rands that we are losing as a result of vandalism. I thank him for his contribution. We shall certainly have to see what we can do about this. I repeat what the hon. member said because it is indeed not a question of colour but purely a question of people who damage things because they belong to someone else. We shall do our best to see how we can deal with it. Many steps have already been taken. [Interjections.] Call-boxes consist only of a shell today. [Interjections.] Yes, many are damaged in Parktown. [Interjections.] The modern call-box consists only of a shell resting on a standard, so that people can see whether a person is destroying the equipment and stealing things. [Interjections.]

This brings me to the hon. member for Kuruman, and I appreciate the thanks he conveyed to the staff and my predecessor. I listened attentively to what he said about the manual exchanges. While he was praising the staff I was reminded of some documents I had examined a while back and in which I had seen how, before the manual exchanges were replaced by automatic ones, he had voiced interminable complaints about the poor quality of the service provided by the manual exchanges. Did he not do that as an MP? [Interjections.]

Not I—perhaps my guardian made the representation.

Oh, then I must have made a mistake. I thought it was the hon. member who had voiced the complaints about the manual exchanges. [Interjections.] I thank the hon. member for his contribution. [Interjections.] We shall have to see what we can do in that respect.

†I now come to the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South. [Interjections.] The hon. member raised a number of questions during his short speech. I shall deal with some of them, but others, which I cannot deal with today, I shall have to reply to in writing. The hon. member spoke about the backlog and told of the terrible conditions in Natal. He said that just about nobody was getting a telephone, the backlog was increasing, etc. Perhaps this letter I have here with me will interest the hon. member, and the House as a whole. I quote—

Then mention is made of a whole lot of applications that have been received, submitted, etc. The letter goes on to state—

Who signed that?

It is signed “Mike Tarr, MP, Pietermaritzburg South”. [Interjections.]

A miracle of reconciliation.

I do not think the hon. member must allow other colleagues perhaps to use him to make a speech in this House.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: What I told the hon. the Minister in my speech today was that I hoped the situation would not get worse in view of the growth in Natal. I was not complaining.

The hon. member started off by speaking about the terrible backlog that existed, but I quoted him as having said that he thought it was not such a bad backlog because there were 10 000 new telephones being installed in his constituency per annum. In fact, he was so happy that he wrote to the newspapers about it. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Umhlanga must rest assured that we are investigating the whole tariff structure for local calls. That is as far as I can go today. The biggest problem there involved people dialling one another from one exchange to another and being metered, as for a trunk-call, with two or three units.

No, that is another problem.

We are looking at those tariffs at the present moment.

*I should just like to come to two matters raised by the hon. member for Sunnyside. I do not know whether he had any ulterior motives or whether he was simply being curious about the telephone directory. The contracts for the telephone directories are given out for ten years. They are given out on ordinary tender. The directories for the Transvaal and Natal are printed by Perskor printers and those for the OFS and the Cape Province are printed by Nasionale Pers. As I said, these are 10-year contracts, and they are due to expire in 1990. The Yellow Pages for the whole of the RSA are printed by a firm called Maister Directories (1981) (Pty) Ltd. These are all the directories which we have printed. Perhaps this information may be of value to the hon. member.

I had no ulterior motives.

I accept that.

The hon. member for Sunnyside also asked several questions about Welkom and about telephone directories that are unavailable there. I must say that the hon. member for Welkom himself has taken up the matter of the Welkom post office with the Department several times. After representations had been received from him as well concerning the question of overcrowding at that specific post office, counter facilities were provided at the mines themselves because so many people came from the mines. This brought about a great improvement and it was done in response to certain representations made by him. He has made representations concerning other matters as well and I really feel that the hon. member for Sunnyside may leave the situation …

I want to help him.

… in his able hands. I think he will deal effectively with the telephone and exchange problems. The question of other exchange problems has also been raised this afternoon and I want to say that we shall consider the matter carefully and I hope we shall be able to improve matters. The hon. member for Sunnyside must not take it amiss of me if I do not send him a copy of the letter I am going to send to the hon. member for Welkom. [Interjections.]

†The hon. member for Johannesburg North asked about 14 questions. I am afraid I will only be able to answer one or two. The rest I shall have to reply to in writing. The hon. member asked about the modems. We have an agreement for 15 years with the supplier to obtain these modems. Through that particular supplier we supply the public. It is a fixed contract. Such contracts are drawn up after very careful consideration. We wanted to build up an electronics industry and this work was given out with the full knowledge of the Tender Board. We have over a number of years built up an extremely good electronics industry in this country.

Then there is the question of Soweto. It was said we must not sort of leave Soweto by the wayside. Three new EWSD exchanges will be commissioned in this area during the next few months. This will provide services for about 20 000 telephones, which more or less equals the waiting list we have there at present.

The hon. member for South Coast raised a number of points. As regards the provision of services for the aged, I can say we are now investigating a special exchange for old-age homes. That exchange will enable people to get right through from their rooms without having to go through a particular exchange inside the old-age home. The result is that, if one calls someone there, that person can take the call in his room and will not have to come down to the tickey-box.

As regards Sames, the subsidy amounts to an interest-free loan which will be repaid when Sames makes a profit. We have a member on the board of directors and the balance sheets are strictly scrutinized every year.

*I want to tell the hon. member for Nigel that the building programme at Heidelberg has been drastically curtailed at this stage because of our lack of funds. However, we shall see what else we can do about this. I shall reply in writing to the other matters raised by the hon. member.

†The hon. member for Constantia raised the whole question of salaries. I do not want to deal with this at length today. The Post Office is a competitive organization and we follow the private sector. The private sector also pays higher salaries in areas where there are not enough people to do a certain job. Then one offers a competitive salary. In this way in the Witwatersrand area people are paid more than they are paid in the south. It is not because they are not doing the same job, or because they are Black or White or there is something wrong with them, but because we need more of them in the Transvaal in the PWV area where 40% of the total population lives. In this area we perhaps have a number of those people and there are no vacancies so that the salary is not as high here as it is in the Transvaal. It is the same in the private sector. We follow the private sector as closely as we can. It is a geographical difference which we also find in the private sector.

As far as cordless telephones are concerned, it is not an easy thing just to talk across the floor about cordless telephones. One cannot just pick up a cordless telephone and start talking. There is very little security attached to it. One can—people know how to do it—use a cordless telephone in such a way as to register calls on someone else’s account.

One does not have to know how to do it; today it happens automatically!

There are a number of difficulties which first have to be ironed out. In fact, there are very few countries that allow cordless telephones because of all the dangers inherent in it. I do not say it will never come, but it does require special equipment. It may also be on the wavelength of the police. There are a lot of problems which we must first iron out. Perhaps, if the hon. member wants to spend some time with my technical staff, he can do so and by the next time we talk about cordless telephones he will have a lot of inside information about this particular system.

Reference was also made to freeway telephones. As I have said earlier, it is a question of first putting in cables. It is not just a matter of having radio telephones to telephone the nearest police station. Vandalism is absolutely rife throughout the country in booths. What will the extent of vadalism be along the roads? How far apart should the telephones be placed? What about someone who gets stuck between two telephones; how does he get to the telephone? All these things have to be considered. It is not just an easy thing in our vast road network.

The answers are still exactly the same as those which I gave in the council. In fact, the actual position is better than what the hon. member suggested. It was stated in the answer that in the next two years more than 10 000 telephones would be installed in the Wynberg magisterial district. The hon. member makes a speech as if we are not putting in one telephone in that magisterial district. As regards Bergvliet and Diep River, the answer is still the same. There is a post office a kilometre to the one side and 400 yards to the other side. We certainly cannot put another post office 400 years from the one and a kilometre from the other.

*The hon. member for Sunnyside referred to parking at buildings. I want to point out to him that it is not our policy to provide parking. When we have some extra land available we may do so. Some buildings are situated in big cities, however, and others we rent. We cannot provide parking. It is not our policy at all. We actually do it as a favour. A person who visits the post office usually has many other matters to attend to. We feel that the local authorities can also contribute their share towards the provision of parking, as they do in respect of other businesses in their areas. It would be very expensive for us to provide parking.

The provision of video conference facilities is a difficult question, but it is quite easy to explain. We use emergency channels of the SABC free of charge. It was a trial run to find out whether the system would work. We cannot sell a service to someone if we do not know if it is going to work. These emergency channels were usually interrupted without prior notice and no guarantee could be given of an uninterrupted conference. We have tried to find ways of perfecting the system. Some departments and a few businesses have used it for us by way of experiment. I have personally conducted interviews between Cape Town and Pretoria with institutions such as old age homes and bodies such as the Council for the Deaf in an attempt to ascertain whether we can operate the system successfully. It seems to me that it is going to work. I have already replied to the hon. member in respect of the telephone directory.

I want to thank the hon. member for Potgietersrus for his contribution in connection with the special bursaries which we are making available to all the persons we would very much like to participate in our programmes and training. We have fine programmes which we must try to present to our school-children. The hon. member will also be given further information about what we are trying to do. I shall let him have the information in writing.

As regards the speech of the hon. member for Schweizer-Reneke, I want to tell him that the necessary equipment for Wolmaransstad has already been delivered. The building is under construction and it is expected to be completed during the last quarter of 1983. The exchange equipment will be installed as soon as possible and we hope to complete everything in the course of 1984. However, the apparatus must be thoroughly tested before the exchange can be fully commissioned. The delay was mainly caused by the planning of the building. It took a little longer that we expected. The other places to which the hon. member referred, such as Bloemhof, Christiana, Delareyville and Sannieshof, are all on our programme, and I shall let the hon. member have the particulars in writing. The hon. member may rest assured that we are anxious to contribute our share in that developing region.

The hon. member referred to postal agents. Very often the postal agent operates from a shop, and since we are only their clients, they have to pay for the renovations. When we find, however, that a place is not in a good condition, our regional people approach them to see whether they can effect the necessary repairs. The bi-monthly payment to the manual exchange operators is a problem, because many of them are transferred to other jobs, in towns elsewhere. It may happen that some of those people may be dissatisfied if they are not there in the end. However, we are quite sure that we can employ many of these people in other posts, but perhaps not always in the same town. Many of these people cannot leave their towns and we know of many of them who actually been doing the job simply because it was available in that town. Since the hon. member has mentioned this point we shall certainly investigate the matter in order to see what else we can do to solve the problem.

Mr. Chairman, I think I have now replied to all the questions that have been put to me.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 75.

House Resumed:

Bill reported.

Third Reading

Mr. Speaker, I move, subject to Standing Order No. 56—

Mr. Speaker, we now enter the final phase of this important debate, namely the Third Reading. I should like to react immediately to the hon. the Minister with regard to what he has said today in reply to some of my colleagues. Firstly, I have always understood that one of the duties of a member of Parliament is to obtain correct information and to use that correct information during debate in this House. I have always understood and I think my colleagues have always understood that the information gained by asking questions and receiving replies, either oral or written, is used in the debates. All that the hon. member for Johannesburg North and other hon. members who have asked questions have done is to deal with the information contained in the replies that have been given officially to Parliament. That is all. Surely there is nothing wrong with that?

With regard to the hon. the Minister’s reference to the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South I think he was a little unfair. He was hitting a little below the belt. Apparently, if one want to say thank you to the officials one cannot criticize afterwards because one has already written a letter praising the officials and thanking them for what they have done. All my colleague here, the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South, did, was simply to set out the situation in regard to Natal, comparing the number of telephones there and pointing out to the hon. the Minister that this was a growing area and that it should be treated as such. That is all the hon. member did.

I now want to come to a few points of my own. I am on record as having said that we should rather have small increases in tariffs but on a regular basis. That is perfectly true. I did say that last year. But I did not say how regular it should be. For instance, I did not say it should be every year. In considering the whole question of being faced with regular increases year by year I do not think it is going to be such a good prospect. I think we have suggested a better idea. That is having a financial study group. I am therefore sorry that this idea has been rejected because such a group might have been able to prevent regular increases in tariffs. Moreover I quoted extracts from Hansard to the effect that the previous hon. Minister and the hon. member for Umlazi took the view that the guidelines of the Franzsen Committee are no longer regarded as guidelines. It is with that in mind that we came with the idea of a financial study group.

The hon. the Minister criticized us for asking on the one hand for more telephones and on the other hand for tariffs not to be raised. What we intended to convey to the hon. the Minister was that in regard to capital expenditure he should get his priorities right. We say rather give preference to working off the backlog in telephones rather than spend money on projects which are not so immediately revenue-producing. So the two points on which the hon. the Minister criticized us, are not mutually inconsistent.

There is a new matter I would like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister, a matter affecting the staff. In question No. 381 I asked whether telephone mechanics and engineers are classified as artisans or as technicians. I was told that all persons employed by the Post Office in skilled trades, such as motor mechanics, carpenters, welders, etc. as distinct from telecommunication electricians, are accommodated in the ranks of telecommunication mechanics. In other words, a person who may be a tool-maker, sheet metalworker, a boilermaker, carpenter or welder could after five years— four years under the new dispensation—become an artisan and obtain a diploma at Olifantsfontein. On the other hand we have telecommunication electricians and telecommunication mechanics, the TE’s and the TM’s. What the Post Office does is to classify them all in the one category, mix the artisans with the TE’s and TM’s and put them on one level in regard to status, pay, progression. They all have membership of the staff association, the S.A. Telecommunications Association. In other words, they have sunk their identity as artisans. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that these artisans are desperately unhappy in the Post Office on account of the fact that their complaints are not being followed up. When they complain to the association which represents them, their complaints are quashed. Their status is not recognized. The position is that in one section one can find a control artisan in charge working under a chief technician and having say, a senior technician under him. The chief technician goes on leave, and who replaces him? Not the control artisan; he cannot replace him but the same senior technician, that is, the same senior technician who works under the control artisan throughout the year now becomes his boss. This is a rather untenable situation. Because of these people’s unhappy situation they become frustrated. They feel that they are not accomplishing anything. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister seriously to consider holding a departmental inquiry into the whole question of the status and promotion of these officials. Even the executives of the S.A. Telecommunications Association are not carrying out their constitutional obligation, which I have read out here. In this respect I quote very briefly again—

In terms of the Post Office Act these people are not allowed to consult with anybody outside the Post Office in respect of their grievances. The only way in which they can obtain any redress is through Parliament. That is why I am speaking up on their behalf here today.

Even a Post Office clerk with only a Std. 8 or Std. 10 qualification can rise right to the top in this department. These clerks however, although some of them have Std. 8 and others Std. 10 qualifications, cannot be promoted beyond the positions which they hold at the moment. That is why I submit that the hon. the Minister will be doing them and the Post Office, and indeed the whole country, a service by giving instructions for a departmental inquiry to be undertaken as soon as possible into their grievances.

Mr. Speaker, I am not going to devote much time to the hon. member for Hillbrow. In the first place, I think the hon. the Minister has already told him that he and his colleagues should not take up the time of this House by asking the same questions over and over again. I think it is unfair to expect hon. members of this House to have to sit and listen repeatedly to the same questions and answers. Furthermore, I think that he could far rather have submitted the representations which he has just made to the hon. the Minister by way of a memorandum. Then, at least, it would have been possible to discuss the matter on a sound basis with the hon. the Minister, the officials of the Post Office and the people concerned. Surely there would then have been a greater possibility of positive progress in regard to this problem of the hon. member.

I now wish to deal with other matters. Last year some hon. members on this side of the House received certain telegrams. These were telegrams which ostensibly came from dissatisfied persons in our respective constituencies. Those telegrams bore the following message: “Ons mis jou by Treurnicht”.

Now, one year later, I want to convey the following message to those dissatisfied persons: We regret that Treurnicht is not with you, and we cannot wait for Eben Cuyler to take his place here in this House. [Interjections.]

We have almost reached the end of another debate in which we were afforded an interesting glimpse into the functions of the department of Posts and Telecommunications. This is a department which one cannot help associating in one’s mind with the satellite tracking station at Hartebeeshoek. The three antennae which have been erected there always symbolize for me the zeal with which the officials of this department serve South Africa. We can, in fact, regard the parabolic reflectors we find there as the eyes and ears of South Africa. Those vast dishes are always aimed at the heavens; aimed at the stars. They inevitably remind one of the slogan the former Postmaster-General coined for himself, his department and his officials at the time they were erected. On that occasion Mr. Louis Rive told his officials: “The sky is the limit”. To me that motto symbolizes the future of South Africa, and in particular this department. That motto filled the officials of the Post Office with great ideals, as we clearly gathered from the discussions during all the stages of this Appropriation Bill.

Moreover, that slogan filled the officials of the Post Office with enthusiasm. So great is their enthusiasm that they even at times do extra work without compensation. They are always prepared to put their shoulders to the wheel, and just see what they have already achieved. During this debate we have heard from quite a number of members what successes they have already achieved. Just see what a contribution they are making to South Africa. What they are doing brings prosperity and progress to our country, not only in respect of the Post Office, but in so many other spheres as well. During this debate we heard of the progress they brought to the farmers. In spite of the problems they have, the farmers find it much easier to solve certain of their problems over the telephone. They created new industries in South Africa, and I am going to discuss this later. They are making us independent, increasing our productivity, strengthening our economy, reinforcing our military preparedness and causing us to realize that by fixing our eyes on the stars we can overlook our differences.

We came to realize this in the debate we have been conducting here. By turning our ears to the heavens and listening to what is being beamed down to us from the heavens, we find channels of communication which bring our peoples closer together. All this is consistent with the direction in which South Africa is moving at present.

It is a pity, however, that while there are those in our country who are building, while some of us are even planning—as the hon. member for Springs also told us—to launch our own satellite into the blue skies above our country, there are others who are demolishing, those who are here, at ground level, making unfounded allegations of maladministration against the Post Office. These are the people who allege that the officials of the Post Office act like marionettes, who allege because they wish to make political capital out of it, that the Postmaster-General and his deputies are allowing their equipment to be used and abused to maintain an electronic surveillance on political opposition. I would ask us to try to steer away from these things in future. I find it a pity that some politicians in our country wish to drag this department and its officials down to such a level.

The budget makes provision for our being able to expand this department further in future and give attention to the training of our officials. We heard a great deal about this, and it is vital that we should provide the people of this country with training. It is also necessary for us to be able to escape from the forays of the private sector as far as our staff is concerned by providing for the needs of more of our officials, particularly a need such as housing, and, together with the SATS, to be able to take the lead in this department in successfully meeting the needs of our elderly people, our own pensioners. That was a wonderful speech, the announcement by the hon. the Minister that such a haven was going to be established. It was welcomed by each one of us here. Provisionally, I wish to tell the hon. the Minister that he may as well turn his gaze on Boksburg, because we have land available if he wishes to establish it there.

The prominent aspect of the budget was, to my mind, the enormous amount which has to be spent on capital equipment. All of us concur in this connection because we see in it a major investment for South Africa. Once this equipment has been put into operation, the era will in fact arrive when the magnitude of the tariff adjustments which caused all of us so much concern, will diminish. As I also said during the Second Reading debate, the nature of our business is inevitably such that we render a service to the private sector which is efficient and the more efficiently we can render that service, the greater the demand for that service will be. The greater the demand becomes, the lower the operating costs will become, because more people will participate in the service. Unfortunately we have to order, purchase and install our equipment well in advance. This entails that we have to incur the expenses and wait a long time, before we can get our money back. A Bronkhorstspruit, an Atlantis or a Babalegi and even a Soweto cannot get off the ground until such time as we have done all those things. That is why the private sector understood our dilemma as regards the tariff adjustments which had to be made and with which we will probably have to continue for a long time, perhaps even to the end of the century. If the private sector finds them difficult to absorb, I want to suggest a solution. The private sector as well as the public sector would save themselves and the country a lot of money if they made sure that telephones were used only for business or official purposes. One finds so frequently when one walks into a company or business undertaking that the staff are talking to friends or conducting their own private business on the telephones. The telephones are used for everything but the purpose for which the employer intended them. This does not happen only in the private sector, one also finds it in many branches of the public sector. I think we should urge our South Africans to overcome this crisis, just as we did the fuel crisis, so that the tariff adjustments that have to be made are not such large ones. We must teach and encourage our people to utilize telephones for the purpose for which they were intended. We note in the estimates that its telephone revenue comprises almost 75% of the total revenue of the post office. If what I have suggested can be accomplished, I believe that one will be able to contain the inflation spiral.

If our people, as some hon. members alleged, are having a hard time—I believe there are people in our communities who are—then we must tell them to use the telephones in such a way that it saves them as well as us money. People who are having a hard time and who will hardly be able to pay the increased tariffs, must take into consideration that the Post Office made provision for the introduction of differentiated tariffs so that there are times during the day when a person may use the telephone at lower tariffs. If we are not going to help so that the peak period traffic along the telecommunications channels can be reduced, the Post Office will have to make new installations, smething which will of course feed the inflation sprial because new equipment will have to be purchased and kept in stock and there will have to be further increases in the tariffs.

If the factory-owner’s telephone account drops, he will also be able to refrain from passing on to the consumer the whole of the tariff increase which we send through to him. In this way all of us can play our part in ensuring that the best use is made of the telephone. We will also contribute to ensuring that the optimum use is made of all the other equipment which the Post Office places at our disposal. This will help us to take this country through the next few years.

We expect that the demand for telephone services during the next 13 years will generate business in South Africa to the value of at least R13 billion. This means that many employment opportunities will be provided in our factories. The continued existence of much of our existing employment will of course be ensured. Owing to the growth of the Post Office, we shall experience growth in this sector of the industry and South Africa will benefit.

Since the Post Office adopts a policy of 70% or more local content, it will in future inevitably lead to a greater employment of our own manpower, a greater manufacturing skill among our people and a greater utilization of local raw materials. Because the Government encouraged all Government Departments to try out local products and the Post Office took the lead in supporting the local suppliers, this led to our becoming self-sufficient in many spheres.

I should like to single out one of these spheres because I believe it illustrates the benefits which accrue to South Africa if we continue to expand the Post Office. If we concentrate on involving the private sector in our planning, as the Post Office is already doing, we find that the private sector benefits tremendously. We have referred to the suppliers whom we now have on our side, and this has only been beneficial to us. During the visits which the parliamentary study groups paid to certain of these industries, we arrived at a plant which manufactures quartz crystals. Quartz crystal is a component of radio communications without which we in South Africa cannot manage. If we were to be boycotted as far as the importation of quartz crystal is concerned, we should most certainly encounter great problems. I believe it would be problems similar to those which we had with the oil crisis. I brought with me a quartz crystal from this plant so that hon. members who have not had an opportunity of seeing it, can see what it looks like and how it is shaped. Now that these companies can manufacture this commodity in South Africa, it means that we are once again assured that we cannot be boycotted in this sphere. What I find splendid in respect of this industry which it was also possible to establish in South Africa owing to the progress which the Post Office is making, is that we not only have synthetic diamonds in South Africa, but synthetic quartz crystals as well. In nature it takes quartz crystals millions of years to form, but at the specific plant which we visited, a beautiful quartz crystal is formed in only four weeks, a quartz crystal which is every bit as good as the genuine article.

It is a good thing that we are continuing the process of developing the Post Office. While we develop the Post Office, we develop South Africa’s industries, and while we develop South Africa’s industries, we develop a country of which we may be proud, and this will be very beneficial to us in future. This department is the key organization without which, I believe, it will be difficult to effectively ward off the total onslaught which is being waged against our country. With this I confirm that this side of the House agrees to the hon. the Minister continuing to manage this department as it has been managed up to now.

Mr. Speaker, we have almost reached the end of the Third Reading debate. A matter which is very important in every respect, is planning. It almost never happens that when some project or other is initiated, or when construction commences on a building, this is not first planned. The reason for that is that if one does not plan, one is in fact adopting the philosophy of a swallow. The swallow is a bird which usually begins to build without a plan and continues in the same way the next year, without a plan. Eventually we then have a rather untidy mess. That is why it is important that every facet of construction work should be planned by means of a blueprint.

Now I am very pleased that the Post Office did not in the past, as far as possible, adopt the tactics of the swallow, but followed the proven method of the blueprint. Here and there we did run into problems, though. That was not the fault of the Post Office. It was perhaps due to the fact that the people in places where such buildings were erected did not have enough confidence in their town and did not, in their planning, think of the future. To think of the future is not always easy. Not everyone is clairvoyant and one does not therefore know whether a place will grow or whether it will remain as it is. Consequently it is essential that all aspects should be considered in planning, for example the geographic situation and any possible expansions. Now I know that when Government buildings are erected, thought is given to the future, and that is very important because there is nothing which is so frustrating and which costs such a great deal as when a building which is still perfectly usable becomes too small and consequently has to be demolished by bulldozers or sold. This is a problem and one encounters it in various places.