Mr Chairman, I would like at the outset to ask the hon MEC in charge of that administration whether he can inform us as to what is happening in the Bossiesgif area of Plettenberg Bay. I understand that land is available but I believe there are 1 500 people or more living there in fairly bad conditions. We would very much like to know what the programme is in regard to Bossiesgif.

The hon MEC, Mr Adams, yesterday seemed to be under the impression that I was being critical of the way the administration was conducting the affairs of the two resorts of Sonesta and Keurbooms. I want to assure the hon MEC that that was not my intention. In fact, if I may repeat exactly what I said yesterday one will see that my criticism did not relate to the administration of these areas. I said that because the provincial administration is supposed to be non-racial we have to play all sorts of games aimed at hiding apartheid. I then said that racially segregated holiday resorts like Keurbooms and Sonesta are transferred to the own affairs administrations of the House of Assembly and the House of Representatives but they continue to be administered by the province just as before. I did not criticise the administration of these areas at all. The whole point of what I said yesterday was that the transferring of these two provincial matters merely as a book entry to own affairs government was merely a way of perpetuating apartheid, because it is a common cause that Keurbooms is reserved solely for White use and that Sonesta is reserved solely for Coloured use. I do not know whether the hon MEC approves of segregation; I would have thought he did not.

However, I assure him that my criticism did not relate to any aspect of the administration of these resorts. My criticism merely related to the mechanisms which the NP Government uses in this tricameral system to try to hide areas of racial discrimination by transferring them to the Houses’ own affairs administrations.

Order! The argument advanced by the hon member rather indicates that he may be out of order. If the hon member is not criticising the administration the question arises whether his argument is at all in order. However, the hon member may continue.

Mr Chairman, may I just explain what I said? I do not criticise the administration, I am not criticising the running of these resorts but I am criticising the administration’s compliance with the system of hiding apartheid.

The hon the Administrator and a number of hon MECs have emphasised that the province has to act within the framework of the law.

Whenever we criticise the administration for continuing with discriminatory practices they take shelter behind the law and behind central Government policy. I can understand this, because I find the apartheid laws of this country and central Government policy to be something which I cannot agree with. I can understand that they are embarrassed to have to apply these discriminatory measures. However, the hon Administrator and the MECs are part of that policy. With the possible exception of Messrs Adams, Matthews and Nyati, all of them, including the hon Administrator and the MECs, are members of the NP. Are they suggesting that they do not approve of apartheid laws? Do they not approve of the laws which their Government, their party, has placed on the Statute Book? Do they not believe in NP policies? Are they actually ashamed of these policies? Are they against the Group Areas Act? Are they against separate amenities? If so, why do they not take steps, as the hon Administrator is entitled to do?

What steps?

To abolish the separate amenities ordinance.

Are you suggesting we abolish a law made elsewhere?

No, I am not suggesting you abolish a law made elsewhere, but an Administrator has the power, as I understand he does from time to time, to change ordinances. Why does the hon Administrator then not scrap the separate amenities ordinance? I am not suggesting he scrap the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act. That is out of his power, but he does have the power to scrap the separate amenities ordinance. [Interjections.] Are they suggesting to us that they actually do not approve of the whole tricameral system? No.

If, in fact, they seek to hide behind the law all the time, then they must tell us if they believe that all South Africans should have the franchise. Do they believe that all South Africans should have an equal vote? Are they telling us that they actually believe in democracy but that they cannot apply it because of central Government? Do they believe in a universal franchise? I would like to know whether Mr Adams believes in a universal franchise. Does he believe in one man, one vote? [Interjections.]

I would like this administration not to hide behind central Government. They should not pretend that their hands are tied by NP policy. They were instrumental in making that policy, apartheid is their philosophy and the NP Government is their Government. They are members of it. [Interjections.]

What does the hon member mean by one man, one vote?

Mr Chairman, I mean universal franchise where every adult in this country has the vote.

On a common voters’ roll?

On a common voters’ roll, yes. [Interjections.]

Then we would agree with that. [Interjections.]

I am glad to hear that, Mr Adams.

Does the Democratic Party agree with that?

The DP’s policy is obvious; we believe in democracy.

[Inaudible.]

We believe in democracy, a universal franchise and that every adult in this country should have a vote. If the hon member wants to call that one man, one vote, that is what I believe in, yes. [Interjections.] Yes. [Interjections.]

Order!

Mr Chairman, I mentioned yesterday that the Group Areas Act continues to be one of the most hated pieces of legislation on our Statute Book. The permit system which is part of this … [Interjections.]

Order! I cannot allow two debates to be conducted simultaneously. The hon member for Groote Schuur may continue.

The permit system which is part of the Group Areas Act, is as despicable. It is as objectionable … [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I should like to put a question to the hon member. When the Government introduced legislation prohibiting political interference between the various political parties, did not the hon member’s party expel people of colour?

Mr Chairman, that is in fact not correct. [Interjections.] We have never kicked any person of colour out of our party. [Interjections.] The law stated, over which we had no control … [Interjections.]

Order!

The law stated … [Interjections.] I am not hiding behind the law; I am telling hon members that the law prohibited … [Interjections.] Would hon members like to listen to my answer? [Interjections.]

Order!

The hon member should not ask questions if he does not want to listen to the answers. That is not the way one debates here. When one asks a question, one should listen to the answer.

The law stated that we were not allowed to mix politically. We certainly did not make the law and we never kicked any person of colour out of our party. Never!

The permit system is as despicable!

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon member for Groote Schuur?

Mr Chairman, I do not have time to answer any further questions but I will chat to the hon member afterwards. [Interjections.]

Order! No, I appeal to hon members to allow the hon member for Groote Schuur to conduct his speech.

As I have indicated, to me the permit system is one of the most despicable things because it is part of the Group Areas Act. Many people of colour choose not to demean themselves by making use of the permit system. There are a lot of people who occupy homes and land in so-called White South Africa without applying for permits rather than to demean themselves by asking permission from their White overlords as to whether they may or may not buy in these areas. I have a lot of respect for these people. I have a lot of respect for people who, at a time when fundamental values and principles are ridden roughshod over every day, still uphold and stick to their principles and will not demean themselves and involve themselves in this kind of system.

Yet sheer necessity, tremendous housing shortages and artificially high prices of homes in Coloured areas have compelled a lot of people to make use of the permit system for fear of prosecution if they were to occupy their homes without a permit. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, despite the fact that we got a bit carried away and poked a bit of fun at the hon member for Groote Schuur, we agree with him to a great extent on the sentiments he expressed here.

The debating yesterday morning begun with discriminatory measures as implemented by the provincial authorities. Late yesterday afternoon someone mentioned how good it was to have a bit of peaceful debating once again.

Since it is early morning again, however, and the hon member for Groote Schuur has introduced the subject again, let us deal with the measures that are unacceptable to us once again.

Before I begin I should like to associate myself with the hon member for Uitenhage who said yesterday that he agreed that the hon the Administrator had taken the correct decision with regard to the Plettenberg Bay matter. I agree with him wholeheartedly. I shall broach this matter again later. I am aware of a matter in Knysna on which the hon the Administrator is expected to give a decisive answer shortly, but I shall come back to that later.

Mr Chairman, by way of an interjection someone said yesterday that it was fun to talk about apartheid signs. He probably meant that one wanted to get rid of the emotions that build up in one and that one wants to get it off one’s chest. In my opinion the hon the Administrator replied to the question of apartheid signs and so on to a great extent.

I want to focus my attention this morning on the autonomy of local authorities. This is a topic that has always been and is still being discussed and debated avidly. Contradictory points of departure on this topic remain the order of the day. At the beginning of my speech I should like to quote what the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing in the House of Representatives said in his introductory speech to the debate on this Vote on 20 March 1989 (Hansard, col 3389):

The hon the Minister went on to say (Hansard, col 3390):

I agree wholeheartedly with what the hon the Minister said, and can find nothing wrong with it. Participation in the management committee system must be seen only as an interim measure, and not as an acceptance of the system as such. The ultimate objective of my party leadership is and remains direct representation on the local level.

Management committees, or autonomous local authorities on the basis of race or colour, will never satisfy the aspirations of people of colour. The management and control of local authorities will and must be a joint effort involving all the residents of a particular town, or if not, of their representatives.

The hon member for Britstown referred yesterday to the helplessness and frustrations of members of the management committee. The hon member for Dysselsdorp was adament in requesting that the management committee system be abolished. [Interjections.] If I remember correctly, senior hon Ministers of the Government spoke earlier this year about a future South Africa in which race or colour would no longer play such a significant part. In direct contradiction with what I have just said, I was disturbed to read in the province’s annual report that a great deal of progress has been made in establishing autonomous local authorities. The full quotation reads:

One has two contradictions here; the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing in the House of Representatives and the MEC and the province have two completely divergent points of departure with regard to this matter.

My question now is whether there are no discussions between the province and the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing on this matter. Surely it is a policy aspect. The hon the Minister says that autonomous local authorities are not practicable or workable, whereas the province feels that they are, and they are prepared to proceed on this premise.

Unless reform has in fact come to a standstill, this also implies that there is a move away from the connotation of race or colour. On the other hand, autonomy emphasises the concept of colour and race quite strongly once again.

Let us take a look at a written question to the province, which read:

The reply includes the following:

My question now is whether Pacaltsdorp is regarded as a Coloured municipality or simply as a fully-fledged municipality. Should autonomy be granted to areas within so-called Coloured areas, will reference be made to Coloured municipalities once again? That is precisely what we are arguing here—that we should move away from the concept of colour towards a unity in South Africa which has no concept of colour.

I want to ask the hon the Administrator and the Executive Committee to give positive attention to this matter and to do something about abolishing the management committee system so that all the residents of a town can receive representation on the local level. That is my appeal to the hon the Administrator and his Executive Committee.

I should like to refer to Vote 4, Subhead J, and I want to refer in particular to Annexure 6, Contract Construction, where provision is made for an amount of R1 million for the building of the Knysna freeway. This will be the second time in three years that a certain section of the residents of Knysna will hold a referendum about whether or not there should be a freeway through Knysna. We have been waiting for a decisive answer in this connection for some time, and it requires urgent attention at this point. The only broadening of the N2 route between Knysna and Cape Town which has not yet been completed, is the route from White Bridge to the west of Knysna into the village. It is understandable that the freeway through the village is causing great controversy.

The proposed Mos-plan cooled things down somewhat, but not for long. The advocates of the bypass requested at a public meeting on 21 March 1989 that the council hold another referendum on this matter. The wording of the referendum read as follows:

That is the internal road—

I want to say immediately that I support the Knysna freeway. A freeway can lead to many advantages and related development and expansion for this town. It will cause a minimum of traffic disturbance and at the same time will reduce the bottleneck of the Knysna main road. In addition it will not place any tax burden on the residents, since the National Transport Commission will carry the full cost of the construction of the road and will maintain it.

The so-called Mos-proposal of the freeway has certain advantages in that there will really be very little if any ecological disturbance of the Knysna lagoon. There will also be minimal disturbance of the natural vegetation, something that cannot be said about the nothern bypass. In addition the traffic will flow more smoothly and the disturbance for the residents will be minimal.

The cost of the freeway is estimated at R24,7 million, which will be considerably cheaper than the northern bypass. My request to the hon the Administrator is that as soon as the local authority receives a decisive answer in this connection—I think it will be in favour of the freeway—he will comply with the request as soon as possible and will take a decision accordingly. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, today I am privileged to participate in this provincial debate for the first time. For those of us who are new to politics, there are many firsts. Since this is my first opportunity, I sincerely want to congratulate the hon the Administrator and his team on a very good budget under very difficult circumstances. They are facing a difficult time in the Cape Province and I want to wish them all the best.

I should like to talk about a very pleasant subject, viz the De Hoop Nature Reserve, a game reserve situated in the Overberg. The nearest towns to this nature reserve are Bredasdorp and Swellendam. Actually it is tragic that this lovely game reserve is not indicated on the road atlas for tourists which is handed out at garages. This game reserve has approximately 44 km of picturesque coastline. It reaches inland for about 15 km. It extends over 60 000 hectares and is comparable to some of the game reserves in Natal. It is even larger than the very well-known Hluhluwe Game Reserve.

It is also very important to explore the tourist potential of this game reserve. Tourism is one of the fastest growing industries in the world. It is also one of the greatest assets of the rural areas. Therefore we should also consider the tourism potential of the De Hoop Game Reserve, particularly when it comes to the rural areas. This game reserve also includes a very well-known vlei, namely the De Hoop Vlei. It is one of the world’s best-known vleis for water birds. It is not unusual that it was declared a vlei of international importance for water birds at the Ramsar Convention in 1973.

In this area one also finds the well-known Potberg Centre for Nature Studies which offers very important nature conservation programmes under the capable guidance of Mr Norris Schneider. Even better known than the game reserve itself is the endangered Cape Vulture colony in this area, a breeding colony which is at a very sensitive stage. We want to wish the nature conservationists all the best in their efforts to try and save it from extinction.

The De Hoop Nature Reserve is indeed delightful and is a must for every nature lover. The question is …

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon member?

No, Sir, my time is too limited to answer any questions now.

The question I want to ask today is how accessible the De Hoop Game Reserve is to the public. If I am criticising today, I am doing so in a constructive manner. I do not want to point a finger at the nature conservationists of the province, not at all. I wish I had the time to compliment these people, viz Mr Le Roux and Dr Johan Neethling, who are really doing tremendous work with what little funds they have at their disposal.

I want to know if the available facilities are being utilised properly and in harmony with nature in order to attract visitors to the De Hoop Game Reserve. When the Armscor missile testing range was introduced to the area, the game reserve gained a new dimension. The eastern part of the De Hoop Game Reserve extends from Potberg as far as Cape Infanta and was private property which was expropriated and incorporated in this game reserve. This area will still be used as a missile testing range at certain times.

Although the area is situated within the Armscor security area, Armscor is not unwilling to admit the public to that area under the same conditions that apply at the moment. It is precisely this part of De Hoop which can unlock the reserve’s unique tourist potential without damaging the wilderness character of the nature reserve in any way.

Former inhabitants of and visitors to the area, before it became a security area, can now justifiably ask what has happened since 1984 when these farms were expropriated. A former Director of Nature Conservation, Dr Douglas Hey, saw the announcement of Armscor’s testing range as a death setence for the game reserve. How wrong he has been proven to be!

As befits a generous person, which he is, he later admitted in an article in Die Burger that De Hoop had benefited greatly from Armscor’s presence. We can and must not forget that many inhabitants and members of the public were regular visitors to this coastline and in a certain sense the authorities’ involvement in nature conservation was a death sentence. I say this in the best sense of the word. Is it necessary, however? After all, a marriage between human beings and nature should be possible without its being to nature’s disadvantage.

The nature conservation authorities may never be accused of selfishly wanting to utilise De Hoop only to a limited degree for tourists. Right or wrong, the area had been earmarked for large-scale tourist development before it was expropriated by Armscor. I am grateful that the artificial tourist development never took place. Mention has been made of a holiday village with 2 000 houses and hotels and golf courses. I am pleased that this did not happen, but that does not mean that no tourist potential should be developed in this area.

I am searching for a spirit of co-operation which will truly reflect the motto “conserve and utilise”. During a recent visit to the eastern part, namely from Potberg to Cape Infanta, I discovered the following very disturbing facts. There are approximately 15 seaside homes and farmsteads in the area, many with historical value, which are completely empty, underutilised and quite dilapidated, and seem to be awaiting the final execution of the death sentence—demolition.

The potential of Wyoming, Lekkerwater, Noetzie, Mosselbank and Witklip is endless. Some of the older homes—mainly asbestos structures—have to be demolished, but other historical places simply must be preserved. At Noetzie I came across the following cry of desperation which was penned on a beam of a wattle-and-daub hut:

To my knowledge this structure is the only remaining wattle-and-daub hut along this coastline. However, it is completely dilapidated and will most probably remain standing for only a further six months.

I realise that the province does not have the funds to do all the work involved in preserving these homes and farmsteads and at the same time to continue important nature conservation activities on a full scale. Alternatives to the hon the Administrator’s budget will have to be found for the preservation of farmsteads and the development of De Hoop. I want to suggest that the same programme for guesthouses as was implemented very successfully by the National Parks Board be considered. This was a wonderful example of private sector involvement in nature conservation.

One can cite the lovely stone farmstead of Melkkamer, situated on the edge of De Hoop Vlei, as an example. Full restoration will cost at least R300 000. There are other farmsteads that are also waiting to be restored. We cannot afford it and the longer it is postponed, the more expensive it will become.

I should like to request that not only a management plan, but a master plan, be urgently drawn up for the De Hoop Game Reserve in order to link up tourism in and conservation of the area as a whole. Such a master plan must give due attention to the planning and implementation of footpaths and a limited number of roads and must allow for horse riding and hiking trails. Proper entry control and gates must be planned and the conservation of exclusive wilderness areas must be addressed. It must also include the utilisation of guesthouses all over De Hoop. I know planning in this respect has already been done, but it consists only of ideas which have not really been acted upon as yet, particularly in the eastern sector. Such a master plan must be linked to a time schedule and must be undertaken in consultation with potential donors of guesthouses as well as the provincial budget.

It is futile to try to protect the De Hoop Game Reserve from tourism for ever. There is simply too much pressure and therefore, for the sake of nature, it must be dealt with timeously.

In conclusion I come to the hon MEC entrusted with roads who has an onerous task. The routes leading to De Hoop are not good. The gravel roads from Swellendam and Bredasdorp to De Hoop are in a very poor condition. Although De Hoop is only a two hours’ journey from Cape Town, the gravel road beyond the tarred road is not good. Over and above the importance to have good connecting routes for the development of tourism in De Hoop, the roads in this area are also of fundamental importance to agriculture and also to development along the Breë River. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it is unfortunate that I was not here when the hon member for Groote Schuur spoke. I heard about one or two points and just need to say how our parents felt at the time of the Prohibition of Political Interference Act. When the Prohibition of Political Interference Act came into being and my parents were members of the party that has now become the PFP, they were told that there was no longer a place for them in that party. Our parents and quite a few of our party members had then to leave that party.

I remember the day Dickie van de Ross stood up in the City Hall of Cape Town, when the Coloured people were disfranchised, and said the most honourable thing the city councillors of Cape Town could do was to resign en bloc, and not one of those members resigned in support of us. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, is the hon member willing to answer a question?

Yes.

Mr Chairman, using the argument that he has just used, does the hon member not think that Mr Adams, a member of the LP who sits as MEC administrating apartheid, should resign from the Provincial Council?

Mr Chairman, I do not believe that and I will tell the hon member why I do not believe that. In the old days when his party had the right to sit in the Provincial Council, when Dr Abduraghman was kicked out, they did not make a contribution to stop it. I want to continue with my speech as I only have ten minutes to my disposal. [[Interjections.] ]

I was born in Bloemhof Flats, District Six. I grew up with the privileges of a town boy. However, it was only the other day that my eyes were really opened to the fact of how Blacks were living in our city when I personally visited Nyanga and Guguletu.

I appreciate the information I got the other day that it would cost R150 million to supply electricity to the houses in all the Black townships in the Peninsula. This is a problem that we will have to address in this city. We cannot be living in an age of nuclear powerstations and floodlights shining on Table Mountain when the masses of the city do not have the privilege of switching on a light. [Interjections.] This has nothing to do with urbanisation. We are talking about the old areas. In this respect I am now pleading on behalf of the group that has no representation in Parliament.

I must immediately say that I do not have a mandate to speak on behalf of this group. However, I believe it is a legitimate demand—which is not a privilege but a right—that for every residence in our province have electricity. What is the result of not having electricity today? It is that we have the highest crime rate in our province. It is common for our people out there to be murdered, raped and assaulted in the dark areas of our city. Under no circumstances must these conditions continue. [Interjections.] One’s eyes will only be opened if one visits these areas.

As far as the safety aspect is concerned, if one candle or paraffin stove falls over, hundreds of tents are destroyed, and the few goods that the people have accumulated over the few years they have been living there are totally destroyed, without even insurance being claimed. Because of the inhumane conditions under which the people are living, they are not allowed any insurance.

Fire engines and ambulances cannot get to such homes. I am pleading on behalf of these people. I know this problem has been put into the lap of the province, and I appreciate the work being done, because I have seen more development taking place since the province was put in charge of the Black areas. [Interjections.]

I do not want to go on the attack, but I do want to point out that there was a time when the Cape Town City Council was in charge of Langa and Nyanga. Nothing was done. [Interjections.]

Because of a lack of proper lighting and living conditions the youth of that area do not have study facilities at night. That is one reason why we have such a high drop-out rate and perhaps another reason why we have a high failure rate in the Black community. Do hon members really know what it is like to live in some of the Black areas of Cape Town? One appreciates what has happened in New Crossroads with the new living conditions. One appreciates what is happening in Khayelitsha. However, I am pleading on behalf of the older communities in our province. If one sees how those people live, it will break one’s heart. I know that it is going to cost a lot of money to give these people proper lighting in their homes and also in the streets, but as far as I am concerned, it is a priority that needs to be addressed.

I think we must take a look at the job creation fund and perhaps utilise this fund. One could immediately turn around and say that because of the cost of living a lot of people’s electricity has been cut off, but then one can also consider the new card system where one purchases a certain amount of electricity before using it. This system was recently introduced in Soweto and I believe in Khayelitsha and Uitenhage as well. I think we need to look at this system because it is the first one in terms of which one actually buys before one uses and not the other way round. My plea today is that we assist those people.

In the one or two more minutes at my disposal. I would like to speak about an oceanarium for our city. I addressed this issue in a question in connection with an aquarium the other day and I realised that it is not high on our priority list. In the course of my travels overseas I have seen cities, such as Anaheim in America—I suppose other hon members have also seen it—with a population of only 40 000 people but millions of people flock to that city due to its tourist facility. The only reason why as many as 1,5 million people come to San Diego in the USA every month is to see their “sea world”. The Cape Province has a coastline stretching over 2 000 km. Other provinces such as Natal, have oceanariums and tourists from over the entire country visit them. I know that the hon the Administrator is going to tell me that this is a function of the local authority. However, we know that the local authority of Cape Town only provides for White tourists. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to be speaking after the hon member for Bonteheuwel. I like the hon member, because although he fights for his cause, he is a well-mannered and enthusiastic hon member. It is a great pleasure for me to speak after him.

The one salient element in the debate so far has been the tremendous needs which have been emphasised from all sides with regard to the various constituencies which exist in this province. However, there is also a reality which we will have to bear in mind. When we want needs to be addressed, we must take into account the limited means at our disposal.

To begin with I want to congratulate the hon the Administrator and his Executive Committee this morning on what they were able to achieve in the Cape and on what they intend to achieve in the year ahead with the means at their disposal. The hon member for Bonteheuwel, like many other hon members, referred to the increasing needs with regard to electricity and many other things. I hope the time will come when, in this Parliament as well, we will be able to discuss with one another what has to be done in order to use and to stretch the available means in such a way that we will in fact be able to meet the needs of our people to a greater extent.

This coincides with one thing, and that is that the increase in the population in South Africa has exceeded the growth of productivity in South Africa. This is basically where our problem lies and we shall have to tackle this situation from all angles in South Africa; otherwise we are going to experience great problems.

I want to mention three aspects, and the first one is that of squatters, which is an escalating problem in the larger urban centres in South Africa. When I talk about squatters, I am talking about those people who find themselves outside the development areas as stated in section 33 of the Act.

I am very concerned about the present trend, namely that from time to time people simply establish themselves on land and then claim full rights to that land, with the result that the legal rights of the owners are in fact ignored to an extent in the process. I am very concerned that if we were to allow this tendency to continue, we would be going against one of the most important principles in our legal and economic system. We cannot allow that. [Interjections.] We cannot allow people to deliberately trespass on other people’s property and alienate them from it because they claim that they have the right to live there.

Now I know that the Provincial Administration does not have the statutory powers to amend that law, but it is also true that the administration is the body that enforces that law. While I am aware of the great problems facing them, I really want to make an appeal this morning that submissions be made by the administration to the departments which draw up these laws, so that representations may be made with regard to the problem areas which they are experiencing in the implementation of the Prevention of Illegal Squatting Amendment Act, and so that a solution can be found to this situation.

[Inaudible.]

The hon member for Haarlem says we must abolish the Group Areas Act. This has nothing to do with that law. We are dealing with the principle of trespassing on the rightful property of other people, and if the hon member for Haarlem is prepared to allow this on his land, he should give us his address, then we will ask the people to go and squat there.

Send them! [Interjections.]

I want to mention a second aspect while the hon member for Haarlem is making such a noise.

Order!

The question is one of the provision of amenities to the people of the Cape. I said that I understood … [interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Haarlem cannot sit there and make a speech. The hon member for Durbanville may proceed.

When we talk about the provision of amenities, I am given the impression that we are still thinking in terms of offering amenities which are far too luxurious in the Cape, and in South Africa. Let us look, for example, at one aspect only.

It is a basic requirement that libraries should be provided in schools for the use of the children. The question that I want to ask this morning is whether it would be possible to bring about greater co-ordination between the various Government departments so that libraries in schools can be situated and structured in such a way that they can also be used in the interests of the community. We will have to start looking into this, or in the long run large parts of our community will find themselves without any amenities whatsoever.

We can take it further. The use of sports fields, halls and so on can also be investigated. I want to make an appeal this morning that we should consider the multi-purpose utilisation of these amenities in the interests of our school-goers, but also in the interests of our adult community. We will simply have to stretch the money at our disposal in the interests of a better standard of living.

Order! I appealed to the hon member for Haarlem not to make a speech while seated. The hon member has nevertheless been commenting out loud throughout and I am not going to allow that. If the hon member will not obey the ruling of the Chair, I shall have to ask him to leave the Committee. The hon member for Durbanville may proceed.

I want to refer to a third aspect, namely the application of existing recreational facilities which are dealt with and administered by the province. The question which I ask myself is that if we were to create tourist attractions via the authorities, would it really be in the best interests of the authorities, in the best interests of the community and in the best interests of the utilisation of those amenities to leave the administration and utilisation of those amenities in the hands of the authorities. I think it is important that we start looking at greater participation by the private sector in the marketing of our resorts with a view to tourism and better utilisation, but also with a view to the more effective maintenance of those resorts.

It is true that the private sector does not always have the capital to undertake large capital works at tourist attractions. The State must necessarily play a role there, but I think the private sector is better equipped to achieve a far greater efficiency by means of marketing and advertising, etc, in the utilisation of those facilities, which will also be to the advantage of the administration.

I would like to support this budget of the hon the Administrator and I would like to wish the hon the Administrator and his Executive Committee every success in the year which lies ahead.

Mr Chairman, I am glad that I can also make a contribution this morning. Last year when I was a member of the Labour Party, I was not given the chance, but now I am simply building on the foundation laid by the Labour Party because that is where my principles lie. I started there and came here with them to oppose apartheid laws because we are all opposed to apartheid.

Allow me to express my condolences to the next of kin of the people who died in SWA because they are also my people. Because it is also my people who are there with the Whites, I cannot take it from the CP any more. I could not take it when they insulted my people yesterday, nor when they insulted my people here last year. I want to take them back to the war with the English, when my people fought for this country together with the Whites. I also want to take them back to Blood River; my people were there as well. My people were there!

Now I want to start by saying that apartheid is a sin. It is not my Bible that says so, it is the South African Bible that says so. [Interjections.]

Do not interrupt me. I kept quiet. The hon members can get at me outside, but I kept quiet here.

Apartheid is a sin because apartheid is pride. My Bible tells me that pride will never get to heaven. So, they must hurry to rid themselves of it so that they will also get to heaven. [Interjections.] They will really have to hurry. Their blood is not on my hands this morning. The blood was on my hands as long as I did not tell them. If we get there one day, they will have to tell the Father that Oom Hansie did tell them.

Tell it to the NP!

I also want to say something about the NP this morning. Yesterday they defended themselves vehemently when the CPs attacked them. The NP is not much better. They are a little better since they started moving away from it. The Lord helped them so that in spite of the moving away from apartheid, they still won all the seats. I want to guarantee the NP that if they scrap all the discriminating Acts this morning, the CP will not win one seat because God will be with them. Abolish all apartheid and let us achieve human dignity in South Africa, because we are all God’s creations and God gave the country to no one else but us. White, Brown or Black skin—it makes no difference, because this country was given to all of us. We are God’s creation, and I ask these things with tears in my eyes this morning because I do not want these people to be lost, because the Son of God came so that nobody had to be lost. Abolish all the apartheid laws and one will see, the CP will not win one seat. God will be with the NP because God has carried them through all these years.

I want to come back to hospitals because they are of close concern to me. A mother waited for five hours at the hospital with a sick baby. It was not a case of the hospital being negligent; not at all. Tygerberg hospital is understaffed. They are overworked and underpaid at the Tygerberg hospital. I serve on that hospital board. That is why this kind of thing happens, as reported in Die Burger of the 30th.

My daughter who works at the Tygerberg hospital experienced the same thing. Her baby has been lying in the Jan S Marais clinic for two days. The doctor was fast asleep because the man was so tired. There was, however, only one doctor on duty and there are so many people. As the hon member for Bonteheuwel explained to the hon members, our people are being assaulted on these dark paths where there is no light. Tygerberg is really overcrowded at night and that doctor is tired.

I want to appeal to the hon Administrator to review the salaries of the people at Tygerberg hospital. That superintendent cannot continue and they cannot get people to work for them. The hon Administrator must please look into the situation. I just want to hear something from the hon member. I serve on the hospital board of the hon member who spoke yesterday about the pension of the Blacks. There was a White couple. The wife earned more than R1 000 and so did her husband. They only have one child. They owe the hospital R1 000 and they cannot even repay that; it had to be written off. I objected to it and it will not be written off again. There are poor people who are pensioners who have to pay. These are Coloured people. Ask me for the truth and I shall show it to the hon members.

Therefore the hon members of the CP must not try to bluff people like Oom Hansie. I grew up in this country and my father and grandfather died for South Africa in two world wars. Today, however, strangers come here from abroad and they are acknowledged while I am not acknowledged as a first class citizen. [Interjections.] Do those hon members know precisely what their forefathers did to us? Why are we so far behind? We worked for old food and clothes in the kitchens and on the farms and not for money. [Interjections.]

Order!

If we had received our rightful share in this country, we should have been equals today and there would have been no apartheid. [Interjections.] Then our people would not have been so far behind.

One day a man invited me to his home and asked me whether we could still coexist with such people. He said that we wanted those people to come and live next to them. I told him: “Yes, it is your liquor that keeps my people where they are so that you can prove something, but you do not want my lawyers to live next to you, nor my clergymen or attorneys.” That is why they can refer to that class of people, because they keep them where they are with liquor. It is time that we investigate the liquor business in the shebeens. it must be investigated so that my people can be uplifted and we can see what my people are worth. My people have been robbed since the beginning of this country’s history. They did not possess their rightful human dignity in this country. Foreigners from abroad who did not fight for this country …

[Interjections.] Yes, they did not fight for this country. We fought for this country. [Interjections.]

Order!

My people helped to erect the buildings which stand here in Africa. In those days there were no White men who were carpenters. There were only a few; even today there are not many. It is because they had lily-white hands and could not do the dirty work. Ask me! [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, Vote 10, Community Services, deals with Black housing. Black housing is the biggest single socio-economic problem in South Africa today. Conservatively it is estimated that R12 billion must be spent on Black housing to provide 1,5 million units in order to eliminate the housing backlog.

I should like to discuss certain aspects of Black housing—which to my mind is of the utmost importance—in this Committee. In contrast to housing for the White community, housing for the Black community through the provision of shelters or a serviced site is primarily a mechanism to ensure order. Every rand spent on a serviced site or core house is a contribution to the stabilisation of the Black community.

The whole issue of Black housing in the Cape Province and the rest of South Africa revolves around what we are prepared to pay for peace in South Africa. We are saying we want to build a new constitution. This is very urgent. However, a constitution cannot be built if there is no orderly community life. An orderly community life cannot be built if houses are not built for the community.

It is against this background of a realisation of the urgency of reconstruction and stabilisation of the Black communities that the MEC responsible for community services sees his housing function. Since the provincial authorities were made responsible for the provision of Black housing, 1 266 projects with a total value of R2 000 million were identified. It is hoped that 200 projects can be started during the present financial year in spite of a shortage of funds. The CPA is actively involved in providing Black housing in the Cape Peninsula. With the aid of the Housing Trust 4 450 units were made available in Khayelitsha during the past financial year.

However, the CPA is not only providing for housing needs in the Cape Peninsula. Land was made available in Umfeleni where Garden Cities and the Stedelike Behuisingbond are building between 3 000 and 4 000 units.

In Philippi 218 ha were identified for 4 500 stands.

Motherwell in the Eastern Cape is developing dramatically and in East London the housing needs of the Black community are also being taken into account.

The CPA is willing and has the ability to undertake the enormous task of providing Black housing. There are, however, certain problems which I shall discuss shortly.

Today, 5 April 1989, is in fact a historic day for Black housing in the Cape Peninsula. Exactly 10 years ago—to the day—the then Minister of Plural Relations and Development, Minister Piet Koornhof, issued a statement on Black housing in the Cape Peninsula. I should like to quote two paragraphs for the record. The statement was dated 5 April 1979—exactly 10 years ago. I quote:

On page 2 it is stated:

Ten years ago today the upgrading of Crossroads was born. Ten years ago today Khayelitsha was established in embryo through a policy decision of the Cabinet. If we look back, we can see that these decisions contributed to a great extent to making housing accessible to the Black communities. That was the end of the bulldozer mentality. It was the beginning of a policy according to which planned squatting had to be accepted as part of the Black housing problems of South Africa.

What do I want to say in the few minutes I have left?

[Inaudible.]

That hon member does not want to hear about the problems of South Africa.

I want to say that the Administration is willing to carry out its policy. There are policy measures which make it possible to provide housing for the Blacks, but there is a total lack of funds. There is one thing we forget when we talk about funds for Black housing, and that is that the Central Government made no funds available for the construction of Black housing during the period between 1969 and 78. That is an historic backlog over and above the provision of funds to accommodate the normal population growth.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member a question?

Unfortunately I do not have the time, Sir.

I do not think the authorities should have to shoulder the responsibility for Black housing alone. Employers in South Africa should accept the responsibility of providing housing their employees with housing. Today employers in South Africa have social responsibility and a dynamic programme of action should be launched to motivate employers to help with the housing needs of their employees. I am thinking specifically of a programme of direct tax rebates for companies involved in the provision of housing for their employees.

Finally, as far as Black housing is concerned, it is no use simply to look at the present problem here in the Peninsula. We must also go to the rural areas and make development possible there in order to diminish the constant flow of urbanisation to a certain extent. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, a measure of continuity is provided if I speak after the hon members for Bellville, Ravensmead, Durbanville and Bonteheuwel who have spoken so encouragingly about various matters of the provincial administration and government. I am also very grateful for the opportunity to address the extended public committee.

I would like to speak about the following aspects: Broadly speaking, they relate firstly to the various functions in my portfolio granted to me, in other words provincial functions with its sub-branches, transport control, transport and Government garages; and in the second place I would like to refer briefly to the problems based on the draft appropriation for 1989-90; and in the third place I would like to comment specifically on some of the questions put by hon members with reference to functions under my control; and lastly I would like to make one or two comments in respect of various opinions expressed in this Committee.

Finance is still one of the largest problems facing the Chief Directorate of Works. Funds that have been appropriated in vote 7 for repairs, maintenance and non-permanent work are still insufficient and do not keep pace with the inflation rate, not to mention normal growth. A few years ago a policy of partial repair was initiated to at least keep buildings in a fairly good condition. Repairs to tarred areas have for example not been addressed.

Repairs and/or replacement of mechanical and electrical installations have been postponed in the hope that they will last another few years. However, as a result of this false economy, these services have to be replaced entirely out of capital funds which are just as limited. Nevertheless, all necessary services have been successfully provided.

As of 1 April 1989, the activities connected to psychiatric hospitals—the buildings—and government garages—the buildings and the transport function—are also under my control. Although the amount available for repair maintenance and non-permanent works does not appear in the draft appropriation, we understand that an amount of only R1 850 000 will be transferred from the Department of Public Works and Land Affairs. However, this amount can only be used for daily maintenance, and submissions will have to be made to the Treasury in this connection.

As regards capital funds under Vote 8, we are presently in a period of renewal where the emphasis is placed on the upgrading and maintenance of existing buildings instead of new extensions. In this connection I can mention the following. In the first place the second and last phase of the renovation of the old Groote Schuur Hospital building will be put out to tender in October this year. This amounts to R831 000 for this year and the required balance amounts to R77 million. This amount will be requested during the coming year or years.

In the second place there is the continuation of the upgrading of the Livingstone Hospital in Port Elizabeth at the cost of R3,4 million; the Somerset Hospital at the cost of R5,4 million and the City Hospital at the cost of R1,7 million.

In the third place there is the conversion of a part of the Langkloof building into a new laboratory for the Branch: Hospital and Health Services.

The cost for this work amounts to R110 000 for this year and a further amount of R6,1 million will be requested next year.

Concerning the new services, the budget makes provision for the planning and erection of 12 community health centres mainly in the Black areas on behalf of the Branch: Hospital and Health Services. I specifically mention Black areas because there are no significant health facilities in these areas.

The largest project which will be undertaken this year is the extension of the Dora Ngenzi Hospital in Port Elizabeth at an estimated cost of R160 million. The tender for this work has been postponed from March 1989 to June 1989 in order to take advantage of the more competitive business climate expected at that time of the year, according to economic predictions.

Another interesting project is the construction of housing for the staff of the Chief Directorate: Nature and Environmental Affairs at De Hoop and Potberg Nature Reserves at the cost of R2,1 million.

In conclusion I look forward to a year in which we will establish structures to provide community health facilities in hard pressed areas and in which existing structures will be upgraded to comply with modern standards and norms.

I briefly want to refer to various questions put to me. The hon member for Walvis Bay asked a question in connection with the synchro-hoist. This is the apparatus used to enable repairs to be made to fishing boats. The administration is paying attention to the matter.

Attention will be paid to available alternatives, for example, in the first place, the privatisation thereof and in the second place, the transfer of the industry to the Harbour Master as he requested; and in the third place to other parties on an agency basis.

†A question was also raised in connection with Ford House in Port Elizabeth concerning the possible underutilisation of the building. The investigation into the rationalisation of the office accommodation has now been completed by the Chief Director of Works and alterations to the interior layout will be done and will possibly effect a saving in rental of some R500 000 per year.

*In regard to traffic control and transport, I wish to say the following. Naturally we strive continuously to make an improved traffic service available to the public and to simultaneously make the service attractive to new recruits. The financial implications will be reflected in the Budget in the future as this planning takes shape. In this connection we can mention that the law enforcement component of the traffic service consists of 267 posts of which 253 have already been filled.

I am going to lift the veil slightly for hon members and inform them that the Commission for Administration is presently considering proposals of this administration for a new postal structure which, if it is granted, will bring about a considerable increase in the personnel strength as well as more attractive career prospects for all officers.

Furthermore, it is a proven fact that the effectiveness of the traffic service, especially in connection with the prevention of accidents, goes hand in hand with the visible presence of traffic officers on the road. To succeed in this aim and in the light of the present insufficient number of traffic posts, paid overtime was implemented during the past summer holiday and during the Easter weekend throughout the province by the administration within the framework of available funds.

The additional 2 900 man hours for the Easter weekend had the following positive results in comparison with the previous Easter weekend when overtime was only worked on a voluntary basis. I mention the following: A 6,2% decrease in the number of road accidents, 20% lower death-toll, 64% more offenders charged in all categories and a 193% increase in drinking and driving cases.

†I am quite sure that hon members are all concerned about the ever increasing road fatalities not only on the roads in the Cape Province but throughout the country. It is a great tragedy that the road fatalities are completely overlooked even though at the best of times this is not intentional. Road fatalities in the Cape average nearly 275 per month, not to mention the staggering collision statistics, the accompanying emotional trauma, the hospitalisation costs and the loss of productivity.

Hon members will understand that in the time at my disposal, one cannot do justice to such a multifaceted problem other than to say that there is great sensitivity and understanding in dealing with the matter. My portfolio also includes transport which is controlled by the roads branch of the administration. Until March 1988 the service was confined solely to vehicles used by the various components of the Provincial Administration. However, since 1 April 1988 control of the five Government Garages in the province—which serve all State departments—was transferred to the Cape Provincial Administration.

Steps are currently being taken to computerise the management function of State transport in order to ensure optimum use of available resources. In conclusion of this aspect may I comment on the possible privatisation of the Government Garages concerning which there were several questions. This is currently being investigated and I am convinced that certain facets of this service could well be privatised to the benefit of both client departments and the State coffers.

*With reference to the question put by the hon member for East London North, the following answers are given.

The point that traffic fines should be deposited in a dedicated fund for the purpose of traffic flow and road improvement is supported, but it seems unacceptable to the Treasury.

The second question was in connection with the staff implications of the Road Traffic Act and the already mentioned road transport quality system. I have already answered this partially, but for further information I would like to say that the executive committee and the administration agrees that successful implementation will require inter alia the provincial traffic officer staff service statement.

†There was a further question from the hon member for Bishop Lavis with regard to the traffic congestion at Swartklip and Khayelitsha. The specific department is looking at this on a continuous basis. The problem is however being compounded by the fact that as construction progresses, traffic arrangements need to be made continuously. There is constant liaison and a further point that I would like to make is that the regional services council responsible for this will again be approached to try and alleviate the situation.

The fourth and last point I wish to speak on is of a general nature. I wish to react specifically to hon members who, during yesterday’s debate and to some extent this morning, questioned whether there could be semblance of accountability by the hon Administrator or the MECs as appointed political officeholders. One went so far as to lament “provincial democracy” because he had to address, to use his own words, “a bunch of nominated men”. To me this is political smugness outshone only by its own stupidity. Granted the point that the elective principle stands close to democracy, but the elections alone cannot assure democracy. One must not forget that a uniracial composition, like the Provincial Council of old, was under no circumstances democratic nor can it be tolerated today by the broader South African society.

By no stretch of the imagination have we reached an ideal constitutional dispensation, but it must be acknowledged that there has been movement in the direction of a more representative structure of government. May I add that there is yet a long road to go.

The point that I wish to make is that the queried accountability is being exercised right in front of the hon member’s eyes, but then perhaps there is none so blind as he who refuses to see.

Another matter on which I wish to comment is the great frankness and tolerance with which political differences have been aired in this Chamber. The people responsible for the provincial government will also have different shades of opinion and political persuasion. Accordingly, it is an illusion to think that there is a totally homogeneous political attitude from the Executive Committee. It helps at times to think of the biblical injunction “Render unto Caesar.” The point I want to make is the fact that the Executive Committee accepts my differences, even to the point of noting my objections in the minutes of meetings. It thus illustrates how we have moved in this country, albeit mighty slowly at times in terms of some people’s perception. We are at the beginning of accepting the idea that I may not agree with one but I certainly will defend one’s right to say it.

Specifically in this regard, my stance on beach apartheid is quite well known to my colleagues. I stand unequivocally against beach apartheid and I also stand by the recommendations of the Jacobs Committee to which my colleague Mr Schoeman referred yesterday. The Jacobs Committee, in its main recommendation, called for the opening of all beaches in the Eastern Cape and specifically in Port Elizabeth. The essence of what I really want to convey to Parliament, is that we of the Executive Committee are mindful of the duties and obligations placed on us. Therefore, in as much as there are major points of difference—there could even be points of conflict and departure—every effort is made to arrive at viable points of co-operation, all in an endeavour to contribute to the better government and administration of this province and its people.

Mr Chairman, before I start my address, I would like to draw attention to the fact that the town where I live, namely De Aar, was in the news during January. I want to quote one headline which appeared in the Sunday Times of 15 January 1989, namely “Don’t stand still in De Aar—the cops may arrest you!” I subsequently contacted the hon the Minister of Law and Order, and we are still investigating this matter.

Another newspaper report, that in the Echo of 20 January 1989, read as follows:

It is not good publicity—

Shoprite is mentioned specifically. Further on the report reads:

[Interjections.] To a question I put to the hon the Minister of Justice he replied as follows, as reported in the Cape Times:

Most of these cases have been withdrawn, but the damage has already been done. If this report had appeared in the New York Times, the world would have read it. South Africa cannot afford this type of publicity.

What I want to point out to the Committee is that the report states that these incidents took place at Shoprite. Immediately afterwards I interviewed the local manager of Shoprite and asked him to arrange a meeting with his superiors in Cape Town. I am a leader; if I can negotiate with the hon the Minister of Law and Order, why not with Shoprite too? They are the people who are making millions, but they do not pay any attention to their clients. [Interjections.]

The headline reads: “De Aar Boksburg 2?”

If Shoprite does not want to speak to me, then I do not see why my people should speak to Shoprite at De Aar. [Interjections.] To date … [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Britstown is quite capable of making his own speech. He does not need all this encouragement. The hon member may proceed.

Surely there is such a thing as respect. To date I have not yet heard anything from Shoprite. Shoprite must get hold of this report from Echo and read what they say about Boksburg number 2, and I want Parliament to take cognisance of this.

I want to return to my address and talk about certain services at hospitals. Because I am so security conscious, I want to talk mainly about security at our hospitals. There is cause for concern. I have the feeling that once our problems have been solved in South West Africa, they are going to increase in South Africa. I hope I am wrong. However, security at hospitals is a cause for concern. I am going to deviate a little. There is a new building, the Gene Louw Building at Tygerberg Hospital. On the evening of 1 July 1988 I paid a visit there. The Gene Louw Building is a paradise for anyone who wants to plant a bomb. I walked in there. There is a waiting-room in which the watchman’s jacket was hanging. In my mind’s eye I could picture myself planting that limpet mine with as much noise as I cared to make, because there was no one in sight. I went upstairs to the ward, but there was still no one in sight. I then spoke to the sisters in charge, and they were also concerned.

Eventually I got hold of the watchman, a certain Mr L Marx. That single watchman has to patrol the grounds outside the building; he has to guard the door and patrol the ward above. We must spend money—and I know the reply will be that there are no funds—to give our patients peace of mind in the knowledge that the hospital in which they are lying is being guarded. When the bomb goes off someone who is outside the hospital can run or fall down, but what can hon members and I do if we happen to be lying in a bed? Hon members will therefore see that we will be giving the people peace of mind if we provide security at our hospitals especially the Gene Louw Building. It will be to the credit of the hon the Administrator if this is done.

I am deviating again and returning to the Tygerberg Hospital. [Interjections.] I do not know if the watchmen know what their duties are, but they huddle together in a corner while people come and go. No one is asked where they are going. No one is searched. People walk in there as if they were walking down Adderley Street. So, I am now going to deviate …

Order! No, the hon member will not be able to complete his deviation. His time is expired. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I am sorry that the hon member could not execute a few more turns; I actually enjoyed his turns considerably. It is unnecessary for him to take a walk elsewhere now; he can hold out for a while yet. [Interjections.]

I should like to associate myself with the sympathy which has been expressed regarding the people who were killed on the border and in particular with the Badenhorst family who live in my constituency. I am sure we all associate ourselves with this.

Yesterday considerable criticism was expressed by various hon members of the hon member for Losberg who had something to say about certain events occurring on the border. I want to place certain matters in perspective and ask whether we can consider a few questions calmly. The hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs stated that he had been prepared for this and was aware of everything that was going on.

Order! I am permitting the hon member for Bethal to react but the hon member is not to devote his entire speech to this matter.

I promise you that I shall not do that, Mr Chairman.

I want to ask, however, whether it was wise to start on the implementation of Resolution 435 on that day, 1 April, if there were only nine of the 500 police officers in South West at that stage and if there were still fewer than 1 000 of the 4 500 monitoring soldiers in South West that day. Was it sensible to begin?

The hon the Minister told us that he was aware of people across the border but, Mr Chairman, they should have been more than 200 km away. What preventive measures were taken when they were seen nearer the border?

Then Die Burger says that terrorist tracks were found by accident. Is that report true or is what the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs said true when he stated that he was fully informed about it?

Order! I am sorry but I cannot permit the hon member to continue discussing the foreign affairs aspect in this vein. All that I am prepared to permit him is to react to the criticism of the hon member for Losberg.

All right, Mr Chairman.

There is also other criticism of the CP. This is what the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs says and this is criticism which was confirmed here:

That is not our reaction. We do not regard it as a bonus or the best thing that could have happened if that event gives rise to the deaths of 20 people from South West and 170 of the other side. We do not regard it as a bonus or a good thing which took place.

I shall continue, and I want to reply to the hon member for Wynberg. That hon member said that we had boycotted the meeting of the extended public committee last year for the many reasons which he mentioned. He closed by saying:

Mr Chairman, if we look at Hansard—the Hansard is here for those who can read or took the trouble to do so—we shall find the reasons for our withdrawal recorded in columns 11281-11291. You were the chairman, Mr Chairman, and a legal point was at issue. That legal point does not apply this year because rules have been promulgated in the interim. That is why we withdrew. I regard the hon member for Wynberg as an hon member with integrity and I should be pleased if he could get his facts right. If he had checked his facts, he would not have stated an untruth in this Committee. I therefore ask him to correct this. Those are the reasons why we withdrew and the hon member for Parow would do well to read that passage too. He is a member of the legal fraternity and he will know that those were the reasons.

You boycotted it and that is the point.

I want to go further and deal with the hon member for George’s statement made yesterday. He wanted to know from the PFP what would happen if somebody in a middle management post in the company of the hon member Dr Zac de Beer, leader of the PFP, should propose that Dr de Beer be replaced by Mr Eugéne Terre’Blanche, leader of the AWB. I think that he would be out on his ear.

I want to ask him what he thinks would happen if someone in the middle order of the NP, such as a Cabinet Minister, should try to lead the hon the State President out of his position. I think that he would be out on his ear. Or is the hon the State President out on his ear? Possibly he will answer that question for us.

I want to deal with the speech made earlier this morning by the hon member for Ravensmead. I want to tell that hon member that I regard him as my equal as a person but the hon member must not think that he is equal to God. The hon member cannot judge whether I am going to heaven or hell. I shall leave that to my Creator and I am prepared to accept responsibility for my standpoint, but it does not rest with the hon member to come and say in this Committee that the CP will go to hell and land in damnation. This may be a sensitive issue to those hon members but I am also entitled to my standpoint. I want to ask the hon member not to make such a row as if we were addressing a meeting of the Democratic Party in Reigerpark, Boksburg, in front of a Coloured audience.

We have the case here of apartheid being blamed for everything now. An hon member said that we were all religious people. There are many of us who are Christians, others are Mohammedans or whatever they may be. That is not the norm for harmony. There are two religious groups, Catholics and Protestants, in Northern Ireland. They are all Christians and they are all the same colour but they are fighting. What I want to say is, you are overlooking other things. [Interjections.]

Order! If hon members would only give the hon member for Bethal a chance, they could possibly find out what he wants to say. The hon member may proceed.

Mr Chairman, I want to tell those hon members and the other hon members here that all of us in this country are striving for a solution and peace in this land. Hon members may differ on the solution which I advocate but I accept their bona fides regarding the solution which they advocate. I merely ask them to accept my bona fides too even if the hon members want to criticise me. I shall accept criticism for that. I also believe in a solution and I also have the right to present people with the solution in which I believe.

If it happens to be the case that apartheid is to blame for everything, why are people fighting in Mozambique? Why are people fighting in India? Why is there trouble between the Sikhs and the rest?

Talk about South Africa!

I shall talk about South Africa and we shall deal with South Africa because I am also eager to have peace in this country. I shall contribute to this in my way if I am permitted the opportunity to do so.

I want to revert to Walvis Bay and associate myself with what the hon member for Walvis Bay said here. I want to say that Walvis Bay forms part of the Cape Province juridically, constitutionally and historically. We must not control Walvis Bay on an agency basis; Walvis Bay belongs with the Cape Province. If we are not going to administer it as part of the Cape Province, we shall be creating a perception that it belongs outside the Cape Province and is not part of it as it is juridically and historically. That is why I should like to support that hon member in his appeal that Walvis Bay should fall directly under the Cape Province.

I know that there are people who will make a great fuss if Walvis Bay is to be called part of the Cape. I can imagine that there are people in Britain who will make a fuss about it. I only find it strange that they do not complain about the Falkland Islands which are very far from them. At the same time I know that there are very many people who object to the fact that someone in Soweto, for instance, should vote in Bophuthatswana. Here we also have an example of a linkage policy which I hope everyone will support.

In a lighter vein, I am aware of all the financial problems which the Provincial Administration has. I thank them for the advertisements which they gave me, this one among others: “Wen R10 in ons verkiesingskompetisie”. I want to tell the Administration they definitely have no money to waste on prizes. Could we be told how many entries there were for this prize and who won it. I do not want to say …

Did you enter?

No, Mr Chairman, I did not enter because I am afraid that it is a contravention of the Electoral Act to take part in a competition in which money is offered as a prize to induce me to vote.

Let us return to this Provincial Administration’s actual problem. I want to tell hon members that there are many matters which I should like to present to them this morning. I shall do this because I consider it necessary. It is a waste of breath to do so, however, because the province does not have the finance available to carry this out. I am sure that the hon members of the executive committee want to do this but there is no finance available. The sooner we start realising in South Africa that there is no money in this country to go any further in doing things which we would all like to do … [Interjections.] I am hearing again that this is a result of apartheid. I wonder how much money is available in Uganda, or even in Angola, where apartheid does not apply. [Interjections.]

The headlines which we see in the newspapers this morning read:

The Hon Mr Louw says, and I quote:

He adds:

Then he also says:

The next headline reads:

Mr Chairman, we are faced with a shortage of money in this province. Last night it was said that the Transvaal had a shortfall of R240 million for hospital services. The problem lies with the administration of the country through which adequate growth and adequate money cannot be generated. [Interjections.] We say today that we must scale everything down and we want to privatise half of it. Do those hon members who formed part of the private sector have any money left over to contribute to community affairs? The private sector no longer has that money either. We are developing into an Africa state … [Interjections.] We are developing into an Africa state with our First and Third World components and we shall have to take note of that. When we get to it, we shall perhaps be able to decide anew today on the determining of priorities.

I want to ask the hon the Administrator and the members of his Executive Committee something here. I would also like recreational facilities but is it not high time, when we look at facilities, rather to decide on a hospital theatre than on a seaside resort? Can we still afford to provide for recreational facilities and resorts with public money in this country if there are such shortages in these other spheres? Hon members will tell me that, if we do not create those recreational facilities, hospitals would overflow. After all, recreation prevents them from reaching hospitals. Should we not ask our public to relax at home again? Let a man relax in his lounge with his guitar rather than go to a ball. Should he not seek exercise in his garden by digging rather than drinking beer on the beach? [Interjections.] We shall have to do something.

You were the ones who said …

Order!

They have done nothing, if that hon member is referring to me. The CP is seven years old and it has not made a single law yet. [Interjections.]

Order!

It has not made a single law yet. Please do not blame me for this. Those hon members have made more laws than I have made because they belong to the majority party here in the House of Representatives and they take part in legislation made here. I am a member of the Opposition. [Interjections.]

Yes, but no discriminatory legislation.

Mr Chairman, we must look at something else too. We must see whether we are still able to afford to spend so much money on recreational facilities. I do not blame hon members for this. In the Cape Province it is an asset to have recreational facilities because they attract tourists. It is an asset to have a good road to the North because it brings people from the North down here. One should also look at the other roads in the Cape Province, however, because we need them and not only at the roads which lead to our recreation resorts.

We shall have to decide whether it is worth more to appoint a medical doctor than to place a security guard at the front doors. We do need security guards but this is due to a weakness in our society. We must eradicate that weakness. In this civilised society of ours we should not need security guards or bars at our windows and everywhere. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I am ashamed of the previous hon CP speaker who said that we should relax in our lounges. There is an abundance of pleasure resorts for Whites, but an acute shortage when it comes to the so-called people of colour. I shall definitely not support the CP and I hope that such speakers will not be here again in the next parliamentary term.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: May I give a personal explanation? I think the hon member misunderstood me.

Order! I regret that that is not a point of order. The hon member for Bokkeveld may proceed.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Is the hon member permitted to say he hopes that such speakers will not participate in the debate in future?

Order! That is not a valid point of order either. The hon member for Bokkeveld may proceed.

Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. I want to refer to the speech the hon the Administrator made here in the House yesterday, in which he summarised the financial predicament of the CPA caused by the enormous demand for funds as a result of a growing need for services and projects of a divergent nature on the one hand, and the limited funds which the CPA has at its disposal on the other hand.

This morning I again read the hon the Administrator’s explanation in Hansard of the midnight drama on 2 February when an apartheid signboard had to be removed hastily in order to avoid international embarrassment for South Africa. I want to ask the Nationalists of the Cape Province with tears in my eyes please not to place the hon the Administrator in such an embarrassing situation or dilemma again. Scrap the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act!

Mr Chairman, yesterday the hon the Administrator emphasised the fact that the CPA had a problem with limited funds and consequently could not allocate funds to all projects. In this regard I want to request the hon the Administrator not to hamper private initiative in the development of resorts. Dr Reinach, the owner of the Wolwekloof Holiday Resort at Ceres applied to the local authority in Ceres for permission to make the necessary extensions to the resort. The application was turned down because further extensions would cause pollution of the Dwars River and would mar the scenic beauty, but the most important reason for the refusal was and remains the fact that the envisaged extension was to take place in an area that is proclaimed White. I want to appeal to the hon the Administrator to approve this extension, since the Department of Education and Training also uses this resort to provide training facilities for Blacks.

In respect of the Ceres Hospital, I want to request that the hospital buildings and facilities be upgraded. In 1986 the Ceres community submitted a memorandum to the Ceres Hospital requesting the general upgrading of the hospital buildings and facilities. The hon MEC for Hospital Services, Mr Theron, visited the hospital. Before his visit a whole week was spent on cleaning up the hospital to create the impression that all was well. The hospital’s services have not improved much since it was visited by the hon MEC. The reaction of the superintendent of that hospital to the memorandum was that it seemed as if the memorandum “had been written by a drunken man”.

We appealed for the appointment of a full-time doctor to that hospital and I want to repeat that appeal. We urgently need a full-time doctor at the Ceres Hospital. I am pleased that the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare is also here this morning. Since I am talking about health services, I want to ask the hon the Administrator to appeal to all district surgeons at least to treat people of colour with respect and to eliminate petty apartheid in their surgeries. I ask this because I had the experience that the district surgeon in Wolseley refused to sign a medical report, form VRT.3, and in so doing prevented a mentally disturbed person from applying for a disability grant.

At Touws River the district surgeon will not allow my people to use the toilet facilities. He has also refused to complete the medical report, form VRT.3. I can provide the names of the people who were turned down.

The new municipal council of Touws River inherited a practically bankrupt estate from the previous municipal council. The acting town clerk, who is also new, has the impossible task of restoring this bankrupt estate which he and his board have inherited, to solvency. On 9 January 1989 the municipality of Touws River applied to the CPA by way of a memorandum directed to the hon MEC, Mr Schoeman, for financial aid of approximately R1,1 million to supplement the deficits in its budget. These deficits are not the doing of the present board, but the result of the bankrupt estate to which I have referred. The CPA reacted by allocating an amount of R74 759. Although the municipality is grateful for this amount, it is a mere drop in the ocean and I appeal earnestly and urgently to the CPA to intervene and give Touws River additional financial aid so that they can extricate themselves from the financial predicament in which they find themselves at present.

The CPA allocated funds to Touws River for the development of a camping resort. The previous municipal council, however, developed a resort without consulting the community and the management committee, and this resort is totally unacceptable to the community. Furthermore, the previous council’s records show that R70 000 was spent, while in fact work to the value of not more than R15 000 was done. The previous council also unilaterally built a sports complex. This was also rejected by my community because of shortcomings and problems there.

I appeal earnestly that any funds which have been earmarked for this camping resort, should rather be used to build a swimming pool. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, in giving an account of my stewardship in the department concerned with Black local authorities and their development and in social and welfare services particularly for Blacks in the Cape Province, I would like in all humility to state that it is impossible for me to give a full account in the time allocated. I would humbly suggest, however, that if there are any hon members who are sufficiently interested in my portfolio, my department will be happy to be at their service and answer their questions or give any further information that they might require.

Someone said that the province was involved in a dying situation, particularly as regards local government. I think I have news for that person, because local government has been established, it is growing and it has come to stay. It can only improve, because it is the sole logical and internationally accepted mode of organisation that can lead to what we require in this country, which is the development of the human component.

Local government is not only the foundation of democracy, but it is also an entire education. That is what we have found out in our participation in local government over the past ten years. We have found out that there is so much to learn—there is so much good to learn—and local government is so full of the power to do the country good. We are not interested in local government for the show or the form of it, but we are interested in local government because of the power that it has wielded over the centuries and in the modern world for the development of humanity all over the world.

The greatest democracies and the most developed countries can be picked out by the number of towns that they have, by the development that they show in their towns, by their architectural skills and by the beauty of their towns. Those are the things that the man in the street requires and those are the things that have been given to man by local government.

I have no problem with a man who says: “Why don’t we have one single council instead of two or three different councils in the same place?” I have no problem with such a man, but I do have a problem with a man who says: “Khayelitsha or Blue Downs will never develop and should stop developing—should stop even trying to develop—because there is not a single White man staying there.” I would have severe problems with that kind of thinking.

We believe that local government, because it addresses the most important requirements and aspirations of human beings at grassroots level, at the levels where it comes into contact with the people, is a force to be reckoned with and is the spearhead of all urbanisation.

Urbanisation is—as we all know—one of the greatest forces in the world and it is shaping all the countries of the world. I hear some people talking about having their own little domains. I think it would be rather difficult. They would not be able to stem the tide of urbanisation that is in motion in this part of our continent. If we do not progress and acquire knowledge of local government and if we do not—by participation and dedication, training and systematised organisation—participate fully at local government level then we have no foundation for either provincial or central government. Central government is wholly based on local government and therefore we humbly believe that local government is the answer to many of our problems. It might even be the answer to the problems of apartheid.

I think there must be a humorous side even to the subject of apartheid. I often say to myself if apartheid is such a bad disease, I would like to know how the White people have been able to immunise themselves against apartheid and why my children are succumbing to the germs of apartheid. Hon members may not agree with me but I think it is a subject worth investigating. I think there is a great deal of wisdom in this.

I am not speaking on behalf of apartheid.

Yes, you are!

It sounds like it!

It sounds like it …

Yes, it does!

… but I am not. What I am doing is showing hon members another angle to it because there must be more than one way of killing a cat.

Apartheid is immoral and unacceptable!

It is. I will agree with hon members all the way that it is unacceptable. However, I think that that drug of immunity can be found in local government and in the proper practice of local government. I am not for one moment standing here and singing the praises of apartheid. However, I think that because we live in a world of ideas and not merely in a world of votes we should also accept the importance of ideas in organising our lives in order to improve the quality thereof.

We in the province have great problems in our task. One of them—I am sure hon members are aware of this—is that we have truncated funds. Our funds are too limited. Another problem we have is the problem of dealing with radical political ideology where people are told not to participate in government structures, their own development or their own social and welfare work. We also have the negative outlook towards the universally accepted ethic, namely to pay for the services a community requires for its own good.

We cannot run away from that. All over the world men who call themselves men pay for the services that they require. We only ask that by training, education, practice and dedication and work we will be able to achieve for ourselves the things that we want to achieve in co-operation with all the other groups that live in this country.

We also have the problem of the ambivalence of the privileged parties towards the need for training and assistance that Black communities suffer a dire lack of at this stage of their history of development. We need a great deal of development and many political parties are ambivalent over this matter. It is a great pity.

We then have the fallacy that one can participate with excellence in government without the aid and direction of efficient administrative structures. These are the mistakes that our brothers in the north have made. These are the mistakes that Africa made. We do not want to make the same mistakes although I do not relish speaking in comparative terms.

We have another problem which is well known and that is the problem of sanctions. Sanctions are cutting deeply across our initiatives to improve housing and other facilities in the Black areas and also social and welfare amenities. They are cutting deeply into this and we will accept the cause. To me the cause of sanctions is simply that some people are making capital out of the possibility of sanctions. That is my considered opinion. Let me put it this way. I cannot understand and agree with a top ecclesiastical body like the SA Council of Churches asking the whole world to apply sanctions against South Africa whilst in the same breath they ask for, get and return with millions of rands which they do not even spend on poor people. This will go down in history as a flaw. The church will never be able to live down the role they have played. In my opinion, it has been a dog-in-the-manger role at the expense of the poor, the uneducated and the untrained masses of South Africa.

I must conclude by saying that it grieves me that after 25 years of government the doyen of African politics, Julius Nyerere, in his closing address asked America to come to his country and teach his people how to deal with the environment. That supports my contention that local government and the manner in which local government preserves or tries to preserve the environment and tries to use the available resources can bring a great deal of progress to a country. We may be at the rear end of the marathon of human development but we refuse to stay there and we are going to devise strategies to change our position and get ourselves more to the forefront. We will do that by applying ourselves scientifically to the practice of local government. It has helped all the other people—why should it not help us?

I now come to social welfare work. Work seems a better cure for poverty than welfare, especially as it is impossible for most countries to pay potential workers to stay at home. On the other hand, because of the problems of urbanization and the difficulties of life, a lot of our people find it impossible to fend for themselves and social welfare services are direly needed for their benefit. Welfare means a great deal to us as a province and I am happy to announce that I am working with a component of officials who are absolutely dedicated to the cause of welfare improvement in this country, irrespective of who is in government and what parties have to say.

It is an accepted principle that the State has a responsibility to ensure an orderly and stable society, and consequently must maintain an orderly welfare structure.

With the publication of the report of the Science Committee of the President’s Council, the acceptance of the national population development programme by the Government and the announcement of a strategy for community development, which is identified as a component of population development, the concept “community development” has become a focal point within the welfare context of the RSA.

This growth-orientated strategy has as its primary aim the enhancement of the quality of life and as such complements the Administration’s aim with regard to the community for which it is responsible—that is the welfare of Black people in the Cape Province.

What about parity?

Parity is a subject close to our heart, and we are working on it. Of course, as hon members know, the final result will depend upon Treasury and upon the deliberations of this Committee.

The Administration, through its welfare services, is consequently concerned with purposeful, planned intervention with a view to promoting the people’s sense of responsibility for self-independence and loyalty, and services are based on the following principles underlying community development: To bring about community involvement and participation; to establish self-help programmes; to develop human potential; to modernise resources in communities; to develop services and organisations; to accomplish co-ordination between all interested bodies and actions; and to implement preventative and developmental programmes in the urban and the rural communities of South Africa. What better way to invest in the future than to invest in the development of the human component?

I would now like to touch on a few answers in the time that is left. As far as pensions are concerned, it was quite a mammoth job for us to organise from the ground an own administration to handle the entire change of pensions, to the extent that from 1 April we have been able to pay pensions on a monthly basis.

We as a province are working on possible schemes to bring about parity in pensions. We are working on this by doing research into a way, which we can present to this Committee, whereby parity can be reached over a certain period—possibly a five year or a ten year period. However, if this is too long for this Committee, it is up to the Committee to see to it that it is done in a shorter time.

There was a question about the means test. The means test for our pensioners has been changed as from 1 January. The maximum income to qualify for the minimum pension was increased from R996 per year to R1 392 per year. Perhaps hon members will think this is not enough.

The question of parity in the payment of pensions to the various population groups rests largely with the Department of Development Planning.

As I have indicated, we are trying to motivate our case for parity in old-age pensions. Parity has been reached in the case of pensions payable to war veterans.

It was also asked how many children are involved in the payment of foster care grants and maintenance grants. The reply is: As regards foster care we have 2 597 children, as regards maintenance we have 14 353 in the Cape and for both maintenance and foster care we have 11 553. However, I must point out at this juncture that welfare figures are constantly changing because the welfare situation is a very fluid one; it changes, and as people reach the age of 65 years they qualify to apply for a pension, which they do. I would also like to point out to this Committee that by the end of the year the backlogs discussed at such length in the Press had been done away with. Sometimes if we have 2 000 applications for the month we do not regard that as a backlog; it is part and parcel of our daily work. [Interjections.]

Order!

I would like to conclude by saying that welfare work is not the responsibility of the province alone. It is not …

Mr Chairman, may the hon the MEC proceed with his speech after order has been called for?

Order! I presume the hon the MEC did not hear me call for order. The hon the MEC may continue.

Thank you, Sir. Welfare work is the responsibility of the entire nation, from the lowest men to the highest men in the South African population. Welfare work is a measure by which the world will judge the civilisation of any country. As Winston Churchill once said: One can judge the quality and the status of civilisation in any country by its welfare and social programmes. We do not want to put people out of work; we do not want to create a welfare state but we want to give all those who need help, all the help they can get. In that spirit I would also like to appeal to the Press, since we need their help in doing this great job of social welfare work.

We are dealing with old people, with forgetful and disabled people, who mostly are the cause of the interruptions in their pensions. We have to be very caring as far as they are concerned and we make an appeal to the Press. Whilst we do not begrudge them selling more papers because of our shortcomings, we also appeal to their sense of responsibility as a component of this country in order to help us to bring this matter to a suitable and a satisfactory conclusion.

Mr Chairman, I find it indeed interesting to be the first speaker after a Black member of this extended public committee. I think in the history of Parliament this is only the second time—the first time was in the same committee last year—that a Black man has addressed this meeting. I would like to say to him that I could wish that he was not a nominated MEC. I could wish that he was elected by the Black people of the Cape Province.

I would say the same thing to his colleagues, the MECs, and for that matter, the hon the Administrator, namely that I would wish that they too were elected by the people of this province and not appointed from Pretoria. I think one of the big problems we have in the Cape Province is that the orders come from Pretoria and are carried out from Pretoria.

As far as the hon the MEC Mr Nyati is concerned I must say I was staggered to hear him say “apartheid is not acceptable, “but …” I now wish to say to him that apartheid is not acceptable, full stop. No “buts” about apartheid; it is simply not acceptable. Knowing how he and his people have suffered under apartheid for so many years, I am astonished that he can stand here and say to us “apartheid is not acceptable, but …”

Then he talked about local government. He said that local government is important, and I agree with him. Local government should in fact be almost the most important part of politics within South Africa, but regrettably it is not. The reason for that is in the first place that local government, like this tricameral Parliament, is racially separated, and as long as racial separation exists in local government, it will not be acceptable to the hon the MECs own people, or to many other thinking people in South Africa. I am sad that he did not call for the scrapping of apartheid in local government.

That is your opinion.

Yes, it is my opinion, and it is the opinion of many others. Local government is important, but it must be conducted on an integrated basis. To have separate municipalities for separate racial groups is simply not acceptable.

If one takes local government further, one realises that municipalities are in turn controlled by regional service councils, and those regional service councils are in turn controlled by a chairman who is appointed by Pretoria and who is not elected at all, and if the RSC reaches a decision with which Pretoria disagrees the hon the Administrator has the right to overturn that decision. That is not good local government; it is bad local government.

I also wish to talk about the LP, and I want to start by saying that I think the hon the leader of that party has, over the last year or so—in fact, since he had his swim at King’s Beach in Port Elizabeth—done a great job in fighting apartheid in South Africa. I applaud him for his confrontation in the Cabinet, as well as for his confrontation with the hon the State President, Mr P W Botha. I believe that in the last year and a half the hon the leader of the LP has done a great job.

I wish I could say the same thing for all the hon members of his party. Of course there are many of them about whom one can say the same thing, but I wish to point to the hon member for Swartland who questioned one of our hon members earlier today. When our hon member was attacking apartheid—there is no question about it that that is what he was doing—his speech was interrupted by the hon member for Swartland who then attacked the hon member for Groote Schuur and the PFP when he was in the middle of attacking apartheid. [Interjections.] I wish to ask him what he is doing. [Interjections.] Why is he protecting apartheid? That was precisely what he was doing. [Interjections.]

What is more, we are a party who have many Coloured members and members of other colours within our group, and yet the party on my right, the NP, has a national standard according to which it will only accept White people as members of its party. And yet that hon member chooses to attack us when we are attacking them. [Interjections.] I find it appalling.

Now I wish to get to the speech that the hon the Administrator made yesterday. I wish to say that I found it very sad that we could have the leading official in the Cape Province standing here yesterday and telling us, in front of Coloured and Indian members of this Parliament, that the reason why he had the sign at the Mossel Bay beach taken down was that there would be foreigners present and it was therefore taken down because of the Dias festival. The insult in that statement to the Coloured people of Mossel Bay is appalling. The hon the Administrator did not take it down for their sakes. We now have a situation where the hon the Administrator when asked by the hon member from the CP whether he would take the sign away if it was put back on the beach said that he has to obey Government policy in this matter. In other words it was taken down for an international festival because of the international content of that festival and yet now that there is no festival we get back to apartheid, we get back to signs on the beach, we get back to a situation where the hon the Administrator is not prepared to step in although he has the power. I want to take this …

[Inaudible.]

My point of view is that you should have removed it for ever.

I do not have the right to do so.

The hon the Administrator has got the right to do so. I want to go on to say that the hon the Administrator has got the right.

A notice appeared recently proposing an amendment to the Dog Tax Ordinance. It stated:

I want to ask the hon the Administrator across the floor of this Committee: Does the hon the Administrator have the right to amend ordinances?

I have not got the right.

Then why is the hon the Administrator amending this ordinance?

It must be done through the relevant committee.

It must be done through the committee? Why then does the hon the Administrator not take action in terms of the Separate Amenities Ordinance, No 20 of 1955? That ordinance is 34 years old and in terms of that ordinance the hon the Administrator has the right to direct local authorities to reserve certain amenities for racial groups. I would be prepared to bet that since 1955 previous Administrators—and maybe this Administrator also—have instructed local authorities to reserve racially certain amenities. If that is the case, why then does the hon the Administrator not amend that instruction? The hon the Administrator has the right to give instructions to reserve amenities for racial groups, therefore he presumably has the right to have them taken away.

The hon the Administrator does anything but. In Port Elizabeth where we had to have no less than a court decision to open a beach amenity the hon the Administrator stepped in to appeal that decision. All the hon the Administrator had to do was to do nothing. If the hon the Administrator had left the court decision to open King’s Beach standing then King’s Beach would have been an integrated beach today. But because of the hon the Administrator’s action in appealing the judgement, King’s Beach is today still a segregated beach. Just as the amenities in Boksburg are segregated so King’s Beach is segregated and purely as a result of the action of the hon the Administrator in appealing the judgment of a court of law.

I want to say firstly to the hon the Administrator that he must in fact withdraw that appeal. Why does he not? He surely has the right to do so. Secondly, I want to ask the hon the Administrator why he appealed that judgment. I want to submit to this Committee that the hon the Administrator in fact appealed that judgement because he had instructions from his bosses in the NP to do so. Would the hon the Administrator please tell me across the floor of this Committee now: Is that the case, or did the hon the Administrator do this entirely on his own judgement together with his MECs? [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, first of all I want to compliment the hon MEC, Mr Nyati, on the sterling way in which he conducted his reply. I also want to point out that I think it is an unfair interjection to say “Tom Swartz is hier”. Mr Chairman, I do not think it is proper for the hon member for Bonteheuwel to say that.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I did not say that Tom Swartz is here.

Order! That is not a point of order. The hon member for Bishop Lavis may continue.

Mr Chairman, if that is the type of interjection which that hon member wishes to throw at Mr Nyati, then we have got enough Tom Swartzes on that side of the House.

That is a lie!

Order! The hon member for Bonteheuwel must withdraw that remark.

I withdraw it, Sir.

Mr Chairman, then I can also point out how many Tom Swartzes are sitting in the front benches of the LP. [Interjections.] Hon members know that this is a fact. It is true, but it is unfair to attack him for something which those people are just as guilty of, frontbenchers to wit! [Interjections.] Yes, those hon members did not think I would hear that, that they would call him a Tom Swartz.

First of all I want to congratulate him. It is a lone voice having to cry out. [Interjections.] Then of course questions are thrown at him about parity. Those hon members are sitting in a privileged position where they have representation. He is the lone voice. Those are unfair interjections they are making. Is that the way they wish to go about this? No, that is unfair of the LP. That is not the way in which those hon members will encourage him to carry on outside. I think he should be congratulated for what he has done and no unfair interjections should be made. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, they shouted for parity. They are fortunate to have a Minister who can negotiate for parity, yet they throw a question at him asking how far he has got with parity. Is that right, correct and fair?

You have not suffered under that law.

Mr Chairman, has that hon member suffered under it? Has he suffered like Mr Nyati has suffered? Has he carried a pass? Still that hon member comes here and wants to preach to the outside that he is prepared to take up the struggle of the Blacks. [Interjections.] However, now that he is here he knows that he is tackling the wrong person. [Interjections.]

Order! No, I am not prepared to have the hon member for Bishop Lavis shouted down. The hon member may continue.

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

This is your last chance.

Yes, this is my last chance. That is why I am going to make it the best of all—if not the best, among the best. [Interjections.] Their candidate is welcome and if they push him into the field, they are giving him to me like a gift on a platter. I put the challenge to the LP to put their best man in Bishop Lavis and I shall give him the hiding of his life. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, a very good point was made by Mr Nyati—and it is a sore point—when he said that the basis of central government was actually local government. That is the basis. However, one sees what has happened. They took the decision and they are now cut off from local government. They are dangling in the air and they have no contact with local government. This is what we find here, because they did not read the signs. We are moving into a new era of local government and now they find themselves at the short end … [Interjections.]

I would like to go a little further by telling those hon members that they must admire me for taking a stand against that which I believe is morally unfair and unjust. I have the right to listen to the dictates of my conscience and if I do so I do not go back and apologise. I will rather take the rap. [Interjections.] I do not apologise. I take the rap and I stand up for what I believe in. That happens when a man listens to the dictates of his conscience.

Order! I do not want to stop interjections altogether, but there are some hon members who are making too many interjections. The hon member for Bishop Lavis may continue.

Thank you, Mr Chairman. I would like to thank the hon Administrator. [Interjections.]

Order!

Mr Chairman, is the hon member prepared to take a question?

No, Sir, that hon member is asking too much. I do not have time to answer his questions now. [Interjections.] It is all right, the hon member can make those noises if he wants to, because there are some of them who do not even possess an unemployment card.

†Some of them are unemployable. [Interjections.] They have never worked. They have used this Parliament as sheltered employment. [Interjections.]

*Mr Chairman, I should like to congratulate the hon the Administrator on his statement that people should have a say in the provinces. I refer to Die Burger of Saturday, 27 February 1989. In an article in this edition of Die Burger as well as in Die Burger of 13 October 1987, the hon the Administrator said that the situation was not satisfactory, and that it needed attention. I quote from the interview in Die Burger of 27 February 1989:

If that is the aim it is now the appointed hour, as the Bible says, for elected members to serve in the provincial administration once again. They agree with me, that is why they have nothing to say.

Mr Chairman, I think there was a problem, but when one regards the matter in that light, namely that we must once again strive for a multiracial elected provincial administration, I think the hon the Administrator should be complimented. To strive for that is a move in the right direction.

Furthermore I should like to quote from the interview with the hon the Administrator which appeared in Die Burger of 27 February:

Unfortunately, the LP no longer has that privilege of focussing attention on problems on a local level.

I wish the hon the Administrator good luck in striving for this multiracial provincial administration and I hope and trust that he will keep it up.

Mr Chairman, I have got a problem which I should like to bring to the attention of the MEC. A person from Hawston wrote to me. All these things are indeed being done and I would like to congratulate Mr Nyati on the work he is doing on a local level. I certainly believe that progress is being made. However, I received a letter from a person who was taken to the Hermanus Hospital. These things are ugly; they bedevil our cause. According to him they arrived at the hospital—the person concerned has been involved in an assault—and waited there for the doctor. Soon afterwards the ambulance people arrived and shortly after them a Dr De Kock arrived. Dr De Kock’s first words were: “You are the people who want to govern the country, aren’t you—you can die for all I care!”

Order! When an hon member in the committee converses loud enough for the presiding officer to hear him, he is conversing too loudly. I can hear quite a few hon members very clearly. The hon member for Bishop Lavis may proceed.

He proceeds to say that Dr De Kock did not examine or touch him at any stage. Dr De Kock repeated that they wanted to govern the country and that he could die on the road for all he cared. If that is the standard of treatment which people of colour are to receive, Dr De Kock should no longer work at that hospital. This kind of thing can only create problems for society. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, when speaking turns were allocated here, I did not take into consideration the fact that I have two portfolios which affect every hon member in this Committee. Consequently I am not sure that I will be able to reply to all the requests, but I shall try.

I am going to make a mistake immediately by beginning with the hon member for Bishop Lavis who spoke just before me. I want to assure him that I shall have the charge he made at the end of his speech investigated, and that we shall not tolerate anything of that kind in our department.

Then I want to come back to roads, because I did not speak about roads at all yesterday. I want to begin with the hon member for Bokkeveld, who, as was rightly pointed out by another hon member, wanted to tar almost all the roads in the Boland. In reply to the hon member’s request that the upgrading of the Robertson-Worcester road be accelerated, I want to inform him that the design of the upgrading is being undertaken at present, but that the construction is subject to the availability of funds. Priorities are drawn up annually, however, and the road will receive attention accordingly.

He also requested that the road between Worcester and the Du Toits Kloof Tunnel be upgraded to a dual carriageway as soon as possible. This section is a national road now, and therefore falls under the jurisdiction of the Department of Transport. A contract for the upgrading of a section of this road was put out recently and I think the Department of Transport is eager for the upgrading to proceed more quickly, but they are also hampered by limited funds.

I take cognisance of the hon member’s proposals concerning the sections Disselfontein to Tandfontein, the Middelburg Pass and McGregor to Greyton. These sections will require new mountain passes, and definitely large sums of money. The policy, however—and I think all hon members will agree with that—is to take care of the existing roads first, and consequently requests of this nature can receive attention only if the financial position with regard to roads improves considerably, a prospect that does not look very rosy at the moment.

With reference to the hon member’s request for a safer junction at the hiking trail at the top of Sir Lowry’s Pass, I should like to say that it is receiving the attention of the Roads Branch, but that a really safe junction does not appear to be possible without very expensive work which will spoil the environment.

Cognisance is taken of the hon member’s representations for the lighting of the Ceres-Bella Vista road, but one must realise that with the financial position that has been sketched to hon members during the past few days, it will be difficult to find justification for granting high priority to a very expensive service such as lighting.

We also take cognisance of the representations of the hon member for East London North that higher priority be granted to the connecting road to Kei Mouth, but I want to tell this Committee that the hon member really does not need to try to help the hon member for King William’s Town in this connection. The hon the Administrator and I receive representations in connection with this Kei Mouth road from that hon member every week. It is simply a question of funds. The planning and design are in progress, but the funds for the construction still have to be found.

The hon member for Aliwal requested that roads to places of interest such as the Bushmen drawings and the dinosaur tracks be declared regional roads so that they can be built and maintained by means of a subsidy. We should dearly like to assist, but once again we have the problem of a lack of funds. Hon members have heard about the decrease in real terms and the increasing costs incurred in keeping existing roads in a reasonable condition without using up the capital assets. Consequently we are loath to fund additional lengths of road, especially if they are not essential and do not serve much traffic.

The hon member for Genadendal requested a tarred road through the Coloured residential area of Napier, and I want to tell him that as soon as I sat down, I received a letter from his colleague, the hon member for Caledon, in support of this. He also asked for tarred roads to Waenhuiskrans, Buffeljags etc. It is true that in the past only the main routes through towns’ inner municipal areas were subsidised.

It is a pleasure to inform the committee that a consulting engineering firm has been appointed and is making a study of all access routes and freeways at Coloured and Black towns. Depending on the findings of this firm, attempts will be made to determine a meaningful policy, once again taking the shortage of funds that the province has to contend with into account.

In view of the capital shortage, which may be a protracted one, and the country’s productivity and economic growth problems, it is essential to invest only in those projects that are most profitable, because that will make the biggest contribution to the improvement in John Citizen’s standard of living. Apart from socioeconomic criteria, in determining priorities all road projects are examined in respect of more concrete criteria such as the volume and nature of traffic and the availability of materials. If a section of road has sufficient merit on the basis of these parameters, I assure hon members that it will be included in the tarring programme.

With reference to the routes mentioned by the hon member, they will receive consideration once again. With regard to the tarring of the Bredasdorp-Elim road, I must inform hon members that the greater part of the route is already on the division council’s programme. In fact, tarring of the road was commenced from the Bredasdorp side, where there is most traffic, six months ago.

I suspect that the hon member is actually requesting that the tarring of the road should progress more quickly, but as I have mentioned, the problem is a lack of funds. Nevertheless we take cognisance of the hon member’s representations with great understanding.

I now want to come back to hospital services, and I want to tell the hon member for Diamant that I referred to the better utilisation of nurses’ homes in my reply yesterday and I want to assure him that we shall ensure that the nurses’ homes are utilised fully.

With regard to the discharged patients who of necessity have to sleep over at the Kimberley Hospital as a result of the long distances they have to travel to get home again, a problem that is related to the curtailment of public transport facilities, I want to point out to the hon member that this is a general matter which can best be addressed by the responsible Minister in Parliament. This is really a problem for us. Transport is not a health problem. Many of these people are not ambulance cases. They visit a clinic merely to receive treatment. As a result of the scaling down in public transport, including train and bus services, we have to accommodate these people on our premises, whereas that is not really our function.

With reference to the clinic at Ritchie I should like to point out that as a result of the public service staff situation countrywide, it is not possible at this stage to keep the clinic open on a 24-hours-a-day basis. Ambulance facilities are normally provided from Kimberley. There is seldom a need in that community for an after-hours ambulance service.

The hon member for Bonteheuwel referred to ambulance services which in his opinion are not rendered adequately by the Cape Town City Council. He also referred to staff practices and the period of response which, according to him, are discriminatory. I should like to assure him that there is no question of discrimination in this service. We have information that could support the claim that the general period of response in his constituency is the same as any other in the Cape metropolis. In Bonteheuwel, for example, it was proved by constant monitoring that is done by the ambulance services that in 46% of cases in which ambulances were called out to car accidents, the period of response was shorter than eight minutes, whereas 90% of cases were disposed of within 14 minutes. The statement that Black ambulance staff may not work in Fish Hoek and Sea Point is not correct. The ultimate responsibility for the operation of ambulance services rests with the province, and we shall not permit discrimination of any kind under any circumstances.

I should like to point out to the hon member for Dysselsdorp that health services in his constituency fall under the Administration: House of Representatives.

I want to thank the hon member for Newton Park for his speech on the Metro Emergency Service, and want to congratulate him on it. It attested to an in-depth study of this service, which we are very proud of.

It was with interest that I took cognisance of the hon member for Nuweveld’s extensive discussion of health services. I should like to point out that as far as the labour ward in Kimberley and the possible influence of costs for separate facilities as well as the better utilisation of nurses’ homes is concerned, I addressed this matter in my earlier speech.

The hon member also referred to the possibility of hospital fees’ trebling and referred to newspaper reports in this connection. Just like the hon member I am concerned about what this newspaper report stated, and should like to know on what authority this forecast was made. The administration and I are not aware of the order of the increase to which reference is being made at this stage.

With reference to the hon member’s concern about the inability of people from the rural areas to afford possibly increased hospital facilities, I should like to point out that this province has a proud record in respect of the rendering of health services and that patients pay for services according to their means on a sliding scale of tariffs.

In addition I should like to assure the hon member that in respect of the application and making available of funds under Vote 8, to which he referred, these funds will in fact be used to supply the needs at the Beaufort West Hospital. The hon member also referred to the problems that are being experienced at Merweville with regard to a light delivery truck that is being used to transport patients. I should like to point out to him that this is merely a patient transport service that is being rendered to the province on a contract basis. Where necessary the Prince Albert ambulance is used for emergencies.

I am aware that there are numerous hon members to whose speeches I have not reacted. I should like to assure them that I shall reply in writing to every request that was raised here.

Mr Chairman, as a run-up to the municipal elections last year many of us saw the animated conversation on television between an owl and a chameleon discussing the pros and cons of municipal elections and the promise to make it happen for the municipal electorate.

The elections came and my constituency—Phoenix—recorded a very low poll. On investigation I found that they said that management and advisory committees were merely advising the city fathers what and what not to do. These management committees in most cities in South Africa have been running for a long time. I know Durban has had its local affairs committees for the past 21 years, and this is a long time to have indirect representation in municipalities in the form of advisory and management committees.

Up to this stage the White parent city councils do the dictating, and they are very often prescriptive. Management committees are known as “local affairs” in and around the municipalities. There have been numerous representations for a direct say in the parent councils. However, up to date there has not been any meaningful change in the system.

I understand that it is the intention of the authorities to create autonomous bodies on ethnic, racial lines to bypass the question of direct representation on municipalities.

If this is the intention I want to record—I am sure many of my hon colleagues in this House would also voice this—my strongest opposition to such autonomy. Here again, these autonomies will be based on ethnic and racial lines. I maintain the right to vote and to be voted for on a non-racial basis. There have been numerous appeals made to the administration after various promises with regard to this anomaly, and direct representation was sought.

I do remember that the Durban City Council was then dominated by PFP members and they, who appeared to lead the example in liberalism, have not conceded one inch in addressing the question of direct representation in municipalities. I appeal to the hon the Administrator of the Cape Province to lead the other provinces in the field of direct representation in the councils. As the front runners in the 1988 municipal elections said: “It can happen.” It is my hope that the hon the Administrator of the Cape can make it happen by allowing the direct representation of management committees on the municipalities.

I appreciate the fact that the hon the Administrator and his team are confronted with a multitude of problems. I heard about some of them here. Some of the remarks were acrimonious, some were critical and some were helpful but I do realise that the hon the Administrator and his executive are saddled with many problems.

It is my hope that when we meet in this Chamber next year the hon the Administrator and his team will have overcome most of the problems that are facing him and his executive. With this, I wish him well.

Mr Chairman, I should like to take this opportunity to exchange a few ideas about agricultural shows.

The Cape of Good Hope Agricultural Society was founded as far back as 1831. This society later became known as the Old Cape Agricultural Society. This agricultural society held ploughing competitions, encouraged wool production, promoted the breeding of good horses and mules and insisted on making nothing but superior wines. As a result of a shortage of funds this society was dissolved in 1892.

The Western Province Agricultural Society was formed under the direction of John X Merriman, the then Minister of Agriculture in the Cape Colony. Cecil John Rhodes donated six acres of land near the Rosebank station to this agricultural society. It was in 1893 that the first Rosebank Show was held here, and since that date this show became known for its horse and mule teams.

By 1952 the Rosebank Showgrounds had become too small for the Cape Show and it was moved to grounds of 200 acres at Goodwood. Since then the Goodwood Show has become known for the merino exhibition for quantified production.

Breeders who want to participate in this show synchronise their ewes with the aid of hormone preparations so that they come on heat at the same time. These ewes are tupped at the same time and their lambs are therefore born within a few days of each other. At the weaning stage the breeders select six ewes and six rams. The ewes are taken to a farm the breeders have agreed on, where they are brought up under the same conditions as the rams in feeding-pens. This show for quantified production takes place when the sheep are 15 months old. At the show the merinos are first subjectively judged, in other words by sight and touch, in order to eliminate mistakes. Then the merinos are shorn, the weight of their wool is determined and the wool is tested in the same way it is tested before it is sold, namely the so-called pre-sale test. The merinos’ body weight, shorn, is also determined. With the aid of a computer and the use of this information, as well as the current wool and meat prices, the lifetime production of the animals is calculated. This is how the best animals are selected and the champions determined. I will come back to this exhibition later.

According to the provincial administration the main objective of an agricultural society is to improve the image of agriculture by means of orderly and joint action. In this process the breeding of high-quality animals and the improvement of livestock in general is encouraged. The use of improved methods and systems to ensure agricultural production is promoted, and the greatest care is also taken in the handling, preparation and marketing of agricultural products. This is why the province also supports agricultural societies financially.

In the first place the provincial administration subsidises half of the interest and redemption payments on a bond obtained by an agricultural show in order to build permanent extensions on its own land. The land must be registered in the name of the agricultural society. A recommendation from the local MP is essential for this assistance. Secondly the administration also pays a subsidy of 50c in the rand on expenditure on operating costs for every year in which a show is held. The provincial administration deserves lavish praise for the assistance it gives show societies.

As far as this system is concerned I nevertheless want to take up the cudgels for the agricultural society of Graaff-Reinet, the largest town in my constituency. I understand why two shows cannot be subsidised in one year, but there are exceptions.

Graaff-Reinet holds its annual show during September, and for very good reasons too. For five years this agricultural society has succeeded in being chosen as the venue for the annual amateur saddle horse show. There are very important reasons why this was done. It is a show for children. The Amateur Saddle Horse Union would very much like to hold the show in the rural areas because children are easier to control in a rural context.

This show is also much more likely to attract people in the rural areas than in the city. If the show were to be moved to Bloemfontein—the other logical site—the Cape Province would lose the only show where Springbok colours are awarded. Furthermore, Graaff-Reinet is very centrally situated and the society has outstanding facilities.

It is a pleasure for me to bring to the attention of hon members that the amateur saddle horse show will be held this week from Thursday to Saturday in Graaff-Reinet. On this occasion there will be a competition in horsemanship between South Africa and the USA. The highlight of the show is on Saturday afternoon, when the hon the State President will receive honorary Springbok colours in horsemanship.

To adversely affect this unique show in financial terms is unacceptable to me. If the show were to be accommodated in this regard, in my opinion there would be enough reason not to regard it as a precedent, because the show is quite unique in the province and in South Africa.

An agricultural show is one of the greatest cohesive factors in a community, particularly in our smaller rural communities. It is my experience that where rural communities are politically divided, the show is still a cohesive factor. An agricultural show gives farmers the opportunity to evaluate their animals, and this competition often leads to better management practices. Agricultural shows are also a good means of advertisement for the stud farmer, particularly where the animals are scientifically evaluated.

I want to conclude by saying that I trust that the province will continue to give its financial support to shows. I would like to suggest that rural shows take more trouble to involve farmers with herds or flocks. If this were done, it would mean that the entire farming community would be at the show. Flock or herd competitions, and other competitions relating to agriculture, such as the determination of a sheep’s weight or the fibre-thickness of wool and mohair, can play a role here.

Furthermore, show societies will have to keep pace with developments in the scientific field. Objective evaluation should gradually be introduced to the judging of animals. The success of the Goodwood Show’s section for quantified production of merinos is a practical example.

If we take into account that agriculture provides jobs for one and a quarter million people, and that approximately five and a half million people are directly or indirectly dependent on agriculture as an employer, we must continue to go all out to stimulate and expand agricultural shows as a subdivision of agriculture, but these must be agricultural shows that are adapted to changing conditions and modern scientific developments.

Mr Chairman, I want to continue and inform the hon members about the activities of my department and especially library matters. As far as the library service is concerned, as hon members have discovered from the budget, we are faced with extreme financial shortages as well as a shortage of personnel. Although our department has appreciation for the State’s financial problems, the allocation for the library service is very disappointing. Against the background of an oppressive reduction of allocated funds, the provincial library service is under a great deal of pressure to establish library services in communities. While an average of 10 libraries have been built during the past five years by means of the financial support of the Provincial Administration, this figure will have to drop to only two or three in the present financial year. At this rate the backlog will never be made up, but will only increase.

A second serious problem is the reduction of personnel. In spite of the fact that our activities have increased by 50 to 100%, the personnel has been reduced by 9%. At present we are working with less personnel than 20 years ago. Hon members therefore perceive that the provincial library services are striving, by means of public library services and in spite of serious problems, to make a substantial contribution to the upliftment, development and enrichment of all the people in the Cape.

While we were able to finance the building of 11 libraries last year, we can only finance three libraries fully during the present financial year. Tulbagh will receive its second instalment of R32 000, Steinkopf a new library and Khayelitsha R0,5 million for a new library. The Executive Committee made a decision last year whereby it pledged itself to the building of libraries in Black areas. I am pleased to mention that the one which is going to be built in Khayelitsha is to be the first of many to come if our funds permit it.

In a comprehensive document on libraries entitled The Use of Libraries for the Development of South Africa, Prof Zaaiman makes an important point when he says, and I quote:

However, we are once again confronted by a financial aspect. I want to make an appeal, especially to our business sector, to help us so that more libraries can be built in our Black residential areas. I think that on the one hand we have a financial problem and on the other an educational problem, and because the State’s funds are very limited, I am of the opinion that the business sector must lend a hand here.

What we are ultimately dealing with here is the development of people and their knowledge and to a large degree the cooperation between the various population groups.

When we speak about the reform initiatives which the Government has set in motion, I think the business sector can also make a contribution regarding the allocation of funds to build more libraries in the Black residential areas. They give us the buildings and we try to provide the books.

I wish to focus on a few questions that were asked. I want to convey my gratitude and appreciation to the hon member for Uitenhage, Mr le Roux, for his fine sentiments about the managing of the Robberg small boat harbour. The hon member’s plea that local authorities appoint officials for the enforcement of the Sea-shore Act, is supported.

I agree with the hon member that there are not enough nature conservation officers and sea fisheries control officers. There is, however, a personnel standstill which aggravates the task. This policy was laid down by the Commission for Administration.

As far as white fish is concerned, the control is being improved at the moment and we are going to attempt to place officials on ships. But this is also going to be difficult because of the present personnel standstill.

The hon member for Durbanville was concerned about greater coordination between schools and local authorities in respect of libraries. I can just mention that a great deal of liaison is taking place between these two components and that scholars make frequent use of the public libraries. This is indicated by the large number of reference books which scholars take out from public libraries.

I can just tell the hon member for Bredasdorp that as far as skiboat licences are concerned, it is a task that is in the hands of Environmental Affairs and that he must please approach them for assistance. The province has nothing to do with it. I am sorry to have to say that.

The hon member for Swellendam is concerned about the De Hoop Nature Reserve. This reserve is completely open to visitors and at the moment there is accommodation for eight visitors per night. The Chief Directorate: Works is at present building 40 new houses for personnel. The existing personnel accommodation, which is ideally situated, will shortly be converted into visitors facilities.

The conditions under which visitors are allowed into the eastern part, are not the same as for De Hoop. Armscor insists on accompanied tours and do not want to allow visitors to move around freely, for reasons of their own of course. Missile tests are carried out without prior notice, and therefore it is difficult to allow uncontrolled tourism.

The land on the eastern side of De Hoop, which the hon member for Swellendam was also concerned about, was not alienated for purposes of nature conservation, but for weapon testing purposes. Therefore it would not be appropriate to address the question of the throwing open of the area to tourism to the Administration.

The management plan in regard to which the hon member also addressed a request has already been completed in concept form and is presently being refined on the computer. Funds for the 1989-90 financial year have already been budgeted for the restoration of the Melkkamer farmstead.

In conclusion I want to express my gratitude to the hon members for their fine contributions. We trust that they will contact our department if they want to know more about my portfolio. We shall await their requests.

Mr Chairman, I would like to begin by directing a few words to my hon colleagues in the PFP. Almost every day those hon members insinuate that the Labour Party are junior partners of the NP. For the information of those hon members I would like to mention that the LP in Eshowe did not decide to participate in this tricameral system because we accepted it, but because it was a point of departure for the LP. In that way we could also try to bring in those who were not participating in the tricameral system.

I also just want to mention that the PFP is the product of the old United Party. Hon members who want to differ with me in this regard, may do so. I served in the Second World War for six years under the leadership of the Prime Minister of South Africa—then the Union of South Africa—Field Marshal Jannie Smuts. There, apartheid was applied to the worst extent. We had to live in separate tents. We had separate training centres and eating facilities. We were called the NE’s—the “NE camp this side and the NE camp that side”. When the war was drawing to a close, we listened to many speeches made by the hon field marshal on the border in North Africa. I can remember how often he told us: “You people are going back to a better South Africa.”

What happened the day we landed in Durban and went to Pietermartizburg? We were discharged by this United Party. We then had to bide our time and were given a little form which we had to fill in. One had to fill in the name of the person one had worked for. Afterwards a letter was written to this employer, or he was telephoned and asked: “Will you take old Willem back? Will you take old Jan back? Do you still have work for him?” What were we given when we returned? I received £150 to buy a suit of clothes. I received money to buy a bicycle, and I was given a long step-ladder. When I asked what the ladder was for, they told me that I now had to go far in life. [Interjections.]

The matter which I want to refer to is—I cannot see why the hon members of the PFP should hint that we are junior partners of the NP in this way—why they should now harp on apartheid to such an extent, while apartheid has been with us for so long. [Interjections.] The PFP is the final product of the United Party. Apartheid was applied by the same old United Party. I really think that the PFP are the last people who should disapprove of apartheid. Now I do not know whether they do so in order to curry favour with the LP or to curry favour with the Black people, or whether it is simply the result of a guilty conscience. Perhaps they should tell us. I think it is a guilty conscience. [Interjections.]

Let me continue with my speech. I would like to continue with the appeal which I made to the hon the Minister yesterday. It seems to me that the local authorities do not always realise the possibilities which this holds for our country’s economy, and all too often they hide behind regulations. I am once again requesting the hon the Administrator to try to do away with some of the regulations or to deregulate because these can be obstacles in the path of reform in this country’s economy. We must take care not to boycott ourselves or even to implement sanctions against our own economy. By deregulating and by doing so comprehensively and with discretion, we would be able to increase the income of our towns as well as our national income on a gigantic scale in a very limited period by means of taxation. We could bring happiness in times of unemployment and inflation. We could put an end to inflation and make sanctions seem redundant. Once again I am appealing to the hon the Administrator to have some of these outdated regulations thoroughly examined. If it justifiable some of them should be immediately amended or abolished, in everyone’s best interests.

Finally, I noticed that under this Vote, an increase of R6 193 000, or 9,31%, has been granted. Although this increase can be ascribed to personnel expenditure, salary adjustments and so on, as well as the filling of vacant posts, I believe, nevertheless, that the increase will perhaps also be able to compensate, to a degree, for the additional administrative costs which may be involved in such an intensive investigation into the deregulation of regulations.

I think that we are really too preoccupied with a string of regulations which we could dispense with. Let us look at the dreadful number of building regulations, some of which ought not to be applicable, and which often prohibit our people from being able to afford a house of their own. The regulations to which I am referring increase building costs so drastically that very few prospective builders can still afford to build. How local authorities interpret certain regulations, is beyond me. The application of these regulations differs from one to the other, and who interprets and applies them correctly, only they would know. Let us look at the so-called prefabricated buildings. These are permitted by some local authorities, and not by others. Yet it is a very effective way of eliminating a housing shortage and is even more economic than the conventional way of building. It is simply frustrating to see all these regulations. Fine, I understand that regulations regarding health and security are required. However, I often doubt the need for many of the others.

Mr Chairman, today I should like to thank the hon Administrator, the MECs and the officials of the Cape Provincial Administration for the zeal and enthusiasm with which they perform their task. It is always a pleasant experience to pay a visit to the Provincial Building in Wale Street.

There is a great dearth of safe havens along our coastal area. The Department of Works therefore identified six places and areas along our cost, namely Struisbaai, Plettenberg Bay, St Francis Bay on the border between Natal and the Transkei. Together with the existing harbours these will give us a network which will give the boat industry and tourism a tremendous boost and make our coast safer. Between East London and Durban there is no harbour of refuge. This stretch is very dangerous and it is essential for a safe harbour of refuge to be established at Port St Johns.

As long ago as the previous century the settlers canalized the Kowie River and established a basis for a safe haven at Port Alfred. Were it not for the fact that this access to the sea is safe for 280 days of the year the marina, in which I have a personal interest, would not have been established. The establishment of this marina caused Port Alfred to undergo a metamorphosis. Overnight Port Alfred became one of the most sought-after holiday resorts in South Africa. This town, previously plagued by unemployment, was quite suddenly unable to supply enough labour. Labour had to be imported from neighbouring towns and from the Ciskei. At one stage during December, approximately 620 people were employed in construction works alone. It is calculated that this development will, directly and indirectly, provide more than a thousand people with work.

Following the establishment of the marina, it was decided to move the proposed casino from Hamburg to Fish River. This casino, which is situated approximately 25 km from Alfred, opened last month.

At the beginning of this year an international aviation school was opened in Port Alfred. At the marina a five star hotel was built.

Owing to all this development which took place, the traffic between Port Elizabeth and Port Alfred increased tremendously. It is calculated that the traffic on this route will increase tenfold in the next twelve months.

Mr Chairman, there are two sections of this road which are in an extremely poor condition and which cannot carry this heavy load of traffic. I am referring to the section between Lilyvale and Lovers Twist and the section between Alexandria and Nanaga. I want to include in this the route between Port Alfred and Grahamstown. Representations in regard to these roads have been made for many years, and the situation is extremely critical.

Mr Chairman, the shipping industry is one of the most rapidly growing industries in South Africa and it is clear that we cannot meet all the need in our harbours for small boats. Twenty years ago the Australian Government began to realise the benefit of marinas and became involved in construction and development. They even financed certain projects in their entirety.

In France the Minister of Tourism launched a national plan to encourage marina development by means of concessions, and is at present offering financial support for the construction of twenty marinas.

Since Plettenberg Bay has been identified by the department as a safe harbour of refuge, I deplore the action taken by the public. There is the possibility that the private sector will build a harbour which will cost the tax payer nothing. We know the hon the Administrator and his Executive Committee to be level-headed persons and we know that their decision will be in the interests of this country.

I want to focus attention on landing stages. Landing stages were at first a function of the Department of Public Works and Land Affairs and were then taken over by the Department of Environment Affairs and Sea Fisheries. As from 1987 these became a function of the works department of the provincial authorities. The allocation of landing stages creates many problems because there is no policy. I made representations to the Department of Public Works and the Department of Environment Affairs and Sea Fisheries for the formulation of a policy.

As regards landing stages in the case of our rivers, they are registered in the name of the person. The landing stages are sold by these persons, and further transactions continue. This is done to such an extent that many of the owners of the landing stages are no longer even resident in these towns. I should like to appeal to the department and the Executive Committee to formulate a policy whereby a landing stage is coupled to a property or plot, and landing stages can only be allocated to persons who own property along the rivers.

In the case of Port Alfred, 50% of the landing stages are registered in the names of persons whose property is not situated along the river banks. We cannot deprive these people of that right. However, the allocation of landing stages can be frozen so that that person is not allowed to transfer it to other persons whose property does not adjoin the river, and the registration can then lapse upon the death of such a person.

In this way, we could perhaps restore order in regard to this matter of landing stages. Many problems are created because many of these landing stages are not maintained in a good condition and the environment is being sullied. The laying down of a policy in regard to the allocation of landing stages, and rules and regulations governing the construction and maintenance of landing stages will solve many problems.

Mr Chairman, I would like to react to a few remarks made by hon members. I really do not have any more time to devote to the hon member for Claremont, but I would like to be fair to him. He began corresponding with me this morning, and he wrote that I was incorrect when I said yesterday that he had received 15% when he was elected to the Cape Town City Council. In fact he received 29,3%. I apologise. Apparently his 29,3% makes him eligible to serve on the Cape Town City Council and to represent his people, but the 43% of Mali Hoza does not entitle him to serve on his council. I will leave it at that.

The hon member for Groote Schuur enquired about Bossiesgif and the hon member for Outeniqua told me that he did not have time to refer to it in his speech, but I will also refer to it. The fact of the matter is that the land for the development of Bossiesgif has already been identified. The areas of Bossiesgif itself, and the farm Welkom to the west of Bossiesgif, have already been approved in principle by the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning, for development. Both areas are at present being considered by the Group Areas Board for deproclamation, after which the section 33 declaration will be proceeded with.

In the meantime we conducted negotiations with the representatives of the Black community and municipality of Plettenberg Bay two weeks ago. Planners are at present proceeding with the detailed planning in Bossiesgif in conjunction with the committee of the Black community, and they have already been engaged in this manner for the past week and a half.

The hon member for Bonteheuwel asked for the provision of electricity to Black residential areas. Perhaps I should just tell the hon member that I recently made a quick calculation of the capital requirements in Black residential areas in the area of the Western Cape Regional Services Council. The total requirement amounts to nearly R628 million. If we exclude electricity and community facilities, a need for physical infrastructure remains at the approximate cost of R330 million. In other words, it is going to cost nearly R229 million to provide electricity and community facilities in the Black residential areas in the region of the Western Cape RSC. That is the bad news. The good news is that an agreement was recently entered into—I want to thank the hon member for Uitenhage for initiating this—between the town council of KwaNobuhle and Eskom, whereby they formed a private company and both invested a capital sum in it, and in fact took over the total electrification and provision of electricity in the entire KwaNobuhle.

A date has already been set—in fact, we will meet with the representatives of Eskom on 13 April—to discuss possible similar involvement of Eskom and the organised trade and industry in Motherwell, the greater Ibhayi area and the Cape Peninsula. If we succeed in making this similar arrangement with Eskom and organised trade and industry, it would mean that the State would be relieved of a tremendous burden in the provision of electricity to these areas.

I share the hon member’s standpoint that we should also look at the older residential areas. He will understand that when one’s funds are limited as they are now, and when one has between 10 000 and 15 000 unserviced sites in the Khayelitsha area—these are people who have nothing—it is difficult to motivate the upgrading of older areas.

The hon member for Durbanville spoke about squatters, and I also promised the hon member for Losberg that I would react to the remarks which he made yesterday about squatters. The province shares entirely the standpoint of the hon member for Durbanville that if squatters were allowed to take possession of private property, proprietary rights in South Africa would simply no longer have any value. In fact, I said as much here last year as well. However, during the past year or so the province has learnt the hard way that as a result of loopholes in the Prevention of Illegal Squatting Act, it has become virtually impossible to take effective action against squatters.

As hon members know, amendments to this Act came into operation on 8 February this year. The most important consequences of the amendments, as we understand them, is that the accused squatters will have to prove in future that land or buildings are being occupied with the consent of the owner. Penalties for offences have been considerably increased, particularly with regard to owners who allow squatting and make a profitable business out of it. Summary ejectment orders by the courts have been made compulsory. The power of the courts to arbitrate in certain cases, has been limited and the fact that an appeal has been made or that orders have been taken on revision, does not prevent the carrying out of such a court order.

The requirement that the presence of squatters in a specific area must pose a general threat to the health or safety of the public before an order for their removal can be issued, has fallen away. In order to address squatting outside the area of jurisdiction of local authorities, the Administrator can appoint a committee or committees in terms of the amending Act. Such a committee will then be able to take decisions and consider objections and order the removal of squatters. The decision of such a committee can result in the prosecution of both the landowners and the squatters.

After the implementation of the Act, negotiations were held between officials of the various provinces in order to discuss the composition of such committees, and discussions will be held soon between the provinces and the Department of Development Planning on the composition of the committees and the drawing up of uniform regulations.

The declaration of temporary transit areas which are provided for, can now also be supplemented with regulations. Henceforth the administrators can now also intervene in cases where a local authority neglects its duty to act in terms of the law.

Although everything is being done to speed up the implementation of these committees and the regulations for which the Act provides, there are a few remarks I want to make.

The Prevention of Illegal Squatting Act must not be regarded as a new way of implementing influx control. Rather, it is an instrument to manage urbanisation. A further statement that I want to make, is that people who employ other people without giving so much as a thought to where they live, and are often aware that they are living on other people’s land—much to their annoyance—are at least morally as guilty as the people who trespass.

I know that the hon member for Durbanville has voters who are landowners in the Noordhoek area and that he is particularly worried about this. I share his concern and want to tell him that we have already arranged a meeting next Friday for all those who are interested to try to address the problem. In this area it is a question of people who misuse cheap labour and dump people on other people’s land so that they can live in the bushes. Although I realise that people are inconvenienced by unlawful squatters, I want to ask, nevertheless, for a little patience and the opportunity to address the matter with as little discomfort as possible for everyone involved.

The hon member for Durbanville also asked that the province should make submissions if there were still shortcomings in the Act. As we go along and as the amending Act is tested, we will make submissions to the departments involved if we find further problems.

The hon member also spoke about the more effective utilisation of amenities. I share his view 100%. He is aware that at present the provision of community facilities lies in the hands of the province, while the provision of school facilities lies in the hands of another department. The hon the Minister of Education and Training has already made a request to the hon the Deputy Minister to the effect that negotiations should be entered into with the four provinces with regard to inter alia the acquiring of land for education purposes and also the more effective utilisation of facilities. We intend to discuss inter alia the use of libraries, school halls and sports fields with him.

Business suspended at 12h45 and resumed at 141115.

Afternoon Sitting

Mr Chairman, when business was suspended, I had just completed what I had to say with regard to the requests of the hon member for Durbanville that amenities be more effectively utilised. The hon member for Bellville spoke very supportively with regard to the provision of Black housing. However, I want to tell the hon member at once that I think we should be careful when it comes to the use of terminology, in the light of our abilities.

I do not think we should think in terms of the provision of housing as far as the State is concerned any more. The backlog with regard to the provision of basic infrastructure in the province and in the country is so incredibly great that we can be grateful if we are able to provide or help provide the basic infrastructure on which people can erect their own accommodation.

I agree wholeheartedly with the hon member when he says that the provision of each housing unit or serviced sites contributes to the stabilising of the communities to which they are provided. Recently, I read a report of a committee of the UN which dealt with the “Provision of Shelter by the year 2000”, and which contained a very interesting paragraph. The following is more or less what was said:

This is a basic truth, which will have to be brought home to Black local authorities to an increasing extent. Unless people pay for the basic infrastructure and services which they receive, the Government will not be in a position to provide money to make this basic infrastructure available.

I and each of the members of the Executive Committee, and the hon the Administrator, would have been able to stand here before hon members and do nothing other than to plead poverty, and we would have been able to tell them that we could do very little with the money that was being made available. Instead of doing that, I want to tell hon members that during the past year we have succeeded—with the limited funds which we had at our disposal—in using NHC funds in 39 towns to begin and sustain 72 projects. That was done with a meagre sum of R109 million.

With the province’s own funds we succeeded in starting 184 projects in 103 Black communities, mainly with regard to the provision of community halls, old age homes, offices, the upgrading of streets, water, sewerage, etc. Our contribution in this regard was approximately R14,5 million. There is a source which I cannot but mention, namely the financing by regional services councils. Despite the fact that there are only three of them in the Cape, an amount of R36 million was placed at the disposal of Black local authorities by RSCs up until 30 June this year, which has enabled us to get 43 projects going in 17 local authorities and to keep them going, mainly with regard to the provision of streets, water, sewerage and electrical services.

I believe that the RSCs have the potential to generate capital, without which it would simply not be possible for anyone to address the shortfall in Black infrastructure and housing in any way at all. I think we will have to look at new ways of generating capital and utilising the resources at our disposal to service that capital.

I wish that I had the time to give hon members a broad outline of the needs which exist in Black areas and, together with hon members, to look for possibilities to meet these needs. However, I want to tell hon members that in spite of the relatively limited funds, the province can look back on a year in which considerable progress was made in the elimination of existing shortfalls. With the help of regional services councils, private developers and employers, I believe that despite the limited funds, we will succeed in at least sustaining these projects during the coming year.

Mr Chairman, my speech deals with inland recreation facilities and resorts. I would like to avail myself of the opportunity to congratulate the hon MEC in charge of this portfolio on all the work that has already been done.

Owing to the fact that local authorities can undertake projects only if they are able to obtain external loans, most of these loans are utilised for housing and the provision of infrastructure of varying standards according to what the inhabitants can afford, and in view of this situation and background local authorities find it difficult to attend to this and are therefore in a dilemma. The scenario in rural areas, especially in the Karoo, is that local authorities are faced with the problem of identified projects, which can play a major role in the financial expansion of the towns, but lack the necessary funds and expertise to get these projects off the ground.

Millions of rands have been and are still being spent on the promotion of tourism because it has been identified as a source of income. Tourists by-pass the Karoo. Local tourists by-pass their culture and those things which are unique to them, and spend their money elsewhere. I request the province to become actively involved and to liaise with the local authorities and the private sector on a broad front so that these identified projects can be implemented in the smaller towns, because the following are of the utmost importance.

Firstly, job opportunities can be created. Concomitant training programmes can be introduced. This will afford handicapped communities and local tourists the opportunity to realise their potential. The climate for investment will be created, especially with a view to exports. Unique home industries which are specially aimed at the tourist industry can be established. Job creation funds can be utilised specifically for these projects This will stimulate confidence among local investors. Local authorities will also be given the opportunity to extend themselves. Furthermore, it will be possible for the local provincial infrastructure to become involved in various spheres. This will create the possibility for future privatisation of these projects.

Finally, I want to emphasise that all these facilities must be made available for the use of everyone.

Mr Chairman, in times of great economic stress, financial security almost becomes a way of life for a great many South Africans, having an adverse effect on family life as was highlighted by the hon the Administrator yesterday, and in the Provincial Administration of the Cape of Good Hope’s annual report of last year under the heading, “Welfare Administration”, which reads:

Welfare and health authorities have reported in dismay the tremendous increase in the incidence of a variety of social problems as a result of this situation. One is profoundly disturbed and saddened by the plight of so many disadvantaged children who are innocent victims of neglect, assault, ill-treatment, abuse and abandonment; children who through no fault of their own have been deprived of adequate parental care.

It is therefore gratifying to know that the Committee for Community Services of the Cape Provincial Administration, which deals with the plight of Black children in need of care, has placed the highest priority on places of safety in this year’s budget by allocating R5,5 million, which will be spent on personnel and management expenditure, professional and special services and, amongst other things, casual clothes for the children and in some cases school clothes where classrooms have been provided and, of course, recreational facilities.

In the Western Cape alone, at Nomzamo, and at Motherwell in the Eastern Cape, 60 babies and toddlers are being cared for. At Motherwell the extension of the existing facilities is already in the planning stages, where another 70 children between the ages of 6 to 18 years will be accommodated. Enkuselweni in the Eastern Cape was opened at the beginning of this year and a hundred boys and girls have been accommodated there.

In the second half of this year two new places of safety will be opened in the Cape, namely Siyakhathala at Stellenbosch, accommodating 140 children, and in the Northern Cape at Galeshewe, where 96 children will be accommodated. Further accommodation is already in the planning stages to care for 100 children. Almost 600 Black children in the Cape alone will, for the first time, now be looked after and cared for by a dedicated team of social workers, psychologists, occupational therapists, nursing sisters and child care workers.

I believe it is important to stress the fact that places of safety are evaluation centres for children and are established and maintained by the State. In the Cape Province there are two categories of places of safety for our Black children. The one accommodates the child who is placed there under the Child Care Act of 1983 for his own protection, where he is cared for on a temporary basis, pending the finalisation of the Children’s Court report. After an intensive investigation, the social worker concerned with that particular child will submit a further report and the commissioner in the Children’s Court will issue a court order for the child either to be placed in foster care, a children’s home, a school of industry or be given out for adoption.

A child who is detained under the Criminal Procedure Act and is awaiting trial on a criminal offence will be kept at a place of safety, pending the trial and sentence. These youths appear in the Juvenile Court, and most of them are sentenced to be placed in reform schools.

As places of safety for our Black children are still in the embryonic stages, it is unfortunately not possible to evaluate the scientific research in this problematic area at these centres of evaluation. However, a child who is under the care of specialised services, who is not alone and isolated, who is fed and clothed, who is surrounded by other children who have suffered traumatic experiences as well, would at least be given the security and sympathetic understanding and a feeling of belonging at the place of safety. Eventually they will be able to develop mentally, physically and morally into young worthwhile people who, if they have been properly evaluated and correctly placed or given out for adoption, would have been taught how to face problems squarely, how to deal with them and in turn take their rightful place in society.

When one considers that an analysis of the age structure of the Black population group reveals that children up to the age of 14 years constitute 42% of the Black population in South Africa, every possible effort must be made in the sphere of preventive education programmes in child care within the Black communities, combining a high profile public awareness campaign, complemented by an intensive effort in the field of detection, not only by social workers and law enforcement officers, but by caring and responsible people living in those communities.

We need to have individual houses, acting as small creches, thereby breaking the stringent bylaws of larger créches, with the mother of the house caring for the children of working parents. We need afterschool centres, utilising mothers in the community to act as childsitters. We need to make use of empty buildings on the weekend where youths can be taught skills. Furthermore we need to act timeously in combating the serious problem of street children. Prof Mike Baizerman of the University of Minnesota said, speaking at the national conference on street children, “The problem of street children should be approached in a childlike way, allowing them space to fool around and play”. He said the goal of the United States’ youth workers was to establish opportunities for relationships to develop in the children’s own environment and to help the children make choices. This should be our goal as well.

We need shelters for street children within the Black communities where “rehabilitation programmes for street children should contain a challenge similar to the excitement and adventure that street life provides”, according to Prof Baizerman. There are a multitude of positive steps which can help solve the problems of child neglect if the communities themselves are involved. Therefore, today I make an urgent appeal to the public, commerce and industry to assess and evaluate their financial support of organisations active in child care and, wherever possible, to make greater provision for the children of our country.

Why not adopt a créche house? Why not adopt an afterschool centre house or a street children’s house within our Black communities? It can so easily be done by generous and concerned people, for the cause of children is the cause of humanity. They are our insurance, our guarantee of survival and our hopes for a better world.

Mr Chairman, I do not want to say anything more about beaches this afternoon, except perhaps to refer to a few remarks made by hon members in this regard.

The first hon member to whom I want to refer is the hon member for Hawston, who expressed his gratitude. We want to thank him most sincerely for this. Gratitude is not something that often comes the way of people in our position. And we therefore like to make it known if somebody is grateful for something we have done. The hon member referred to beach development at Hawston, Gansbaai and Hermanus. As far as Hawston is concerned I can tell him that we have already made an amount of R30 000 available for the planning. This has already been paid over to the local authority. The hon member can discuss this with the local authority.

As far as Hermanus is concerned, an application, which we are considering and evaluating in conjunction with others, and on which we will come to decision in due time, has already been tabled. As far as Gansbaai is concerned, we are not aware of any application having been submitted. If the hon member is in need of anything in that regard, he is welcome to ask his local authority to submit an application to us.

Furthermore I want to refer briefly to the hon member for Karee. I think he made a very positive contribution to this debate. I want to thank him for his words and gratitude, and I merely want to point out to him that we are aware that there is a tremendous need for recreational facilities both in our province and at local authority level. However, we can only do as much in this regard as the funds at our disposal allow us to. Consequently we were obliged to first provide regional resorts to serve a certain area before giving attention to local resorts. The hon member must just be patient in this regard. We hope to deal with his area at some stage in the future.

The hon member for Haarlem alleged that all White beaches were fully developed. Without fear of contradiction I want to say that this is not the complete truth. [Interjections.] It is not the complete truth. [Interjections.] I want to ask the hon member to have a look at the facilities at Monwabisi, MNandi, Strandfontein, People’s Pleasure and Leaches Bay, and I could mention quite a few more to him. [Interjections.] Those facilities can be compared any day with those at the Strand, Blouberg or Melkbosstrand. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Bokkeveld asked for a swimming pool at Bell Vista. I just want to tell him that that is a local matter through and through. The financial assistance the province has is limited. We only have a few million rand at our disposal, and this is utilised mainly for the improvement of the infrastructure for water, electricity and sewerage and for road improvements and storm-water drainage. It is consequently not possible to regard this as a priority.

There are two possibilities they can consider. They can apply for job-creation funds to finance this project, or they can apply to the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, Administration: House of Representatives.

The hon member for Northern Cape emphasised the differences between the facilities at Langleg for Coloureds and at Riverton for Whites. I just want to tell him that we have in the mean time budgeted R4 million for the improvement of the facilities at Langleg. I want to ask him to give us a bit of a chance, and I can give him the assurance that when these projects have been completed, Langleg’s development and standard will be at least comparable with those at Riverton, if not better.

The hon member for Genadendal referred to the holiday resort there. We have already received an application in this regard. It will be considered on merit in due course.

The hon member for Britstown mentioned the incident at De Aar where summonses were served on three people for loitering. Action was taken by the police as a result of a transgression of a municipal regulation prohibiting loitering in the streets and in public places.

I just want to explain that from time to time the provincial administration does promulgate standard regulations on various matters. However, these standard regulations only apply in a local authority if that local authority has passed those regulations for its own area. This is the case here.

Finally I just want to mention that the whole question of loitering and crowding together is a matter that has been referred to the Council for the Co-ordination of Local Government Affairs, a council of which the hon member’s hon Minister of Local Government and Housing is also a member.

I want to refer briefly to the hon member for Caledon. He asked quite a number of questions, and I just want to refer briefly to them since my time is limited.

The structure plan for coastal areas, various sections of which already exist—I believe there are as many as six—has been completed and has been made available to the public at large for comment. We like to rely on public comment. The comment is currently being processed and will be submitted to the planning advisory council of the hon the Administrator for approval within the next month, after which it will be submitted to the executive committee. This entire process should be completed within three months, after which the plans will be available to the local authorities and also, on request, to developers.

The drawing up of a structural plan for microareas, or local structural plans, is a function which is performed at local government level. We encourage this as much as possible, because in terms of the land utilisation planning ordinance, our entire system of the devolution of power rests, on structural plans, and it is there fore in the interest of every local authority to draw up these structural plans.

As far as the financing of such plans is concerned, hon members can understand that if the province accepted responsibility for the financing of the local structural plans of our smaller local authorities, the total appropriation for financial assistance would be taken up by this. I think it is in the interest of the local community to do so, and they can incur the expenditure.

The object of the concept of the structural plans for coastal areas is precisely to bring about a balance between development and conservation. I could speak volumes in this regard, but I shall refrain from doing so. In the process all the contributions from various government bodies are taken into consideration, including those of the Council for the Environment.

The Executive Committee is an advocate of the integrated management system and views coastal plans as part of the system. As far the hon member’s representations in regard to the Wortelgat Holiday Resort are concerned, let me tell him that an impact study, evaluated by the Department of Environment Affairs and approved by the Administrator, was done and that this rezoning was approved in terms of that impact study.

As far as the Franskraal Caravan Park is concerned, the divisional council’s main objection involved the limited facilities at the Uilenkraalsmond foreshore area, its contention being that the development would overtax existing facilities. The fact of the matter is that the developer is providing facilities such as a golf course, swimming pool, recreation hall, etc, on the site, which means there would not necessarily be an increase in the pressure on the beach facilities, and consequently the Executive Committee approved that decision. This is also in keeping with our structural plan for coastal areas. I shall personally give the hon member more information, at a later stage, about the other questions he referred to.

The hon member for Nuweveld referred to the declaration of Beaufort West’s main street as a free-trading area, and I want to point out to him that the advertisement declaring the central business district a free trading area appeared as far back as 28 February 1989, that the closing date for objections was 10 March and that we are now waiting for the Group Areas Board to comment on this. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Outeniqua asked the executive committee to take steps to do away with management committees. He also said that autonomous local authorities based on race were unacceptable to him and to his party. However, I cannot quite understand this representation. The hon member is asking for a joint local authority; he is asking for a government body at local level which would be able to make joint decisions on community matters. The hon member has such a body—a regional services council. [Interjections.] All races have seats on the same body and take joint decisions on matters of common concern. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Britstown referred to the fact that since the election management committees have had only advisory powers. This is not completely true either. [Interjections.] The fact of the matter is that a management committee can request delegated powers, for implementation under delegated authority, with the approval of the board, in terms of the ordinance—the Department of Constitutional Development and Planning published a list of 106 in the Gazette. [Interjections.] The hon member must please give me a moment.

In terms of section 17(b) of the Promotion of Local Government Affairs Act a management committee may ask for the devolution of powers, with the exclusion of the board. [Interjections.] They have the powers and need only ask for them. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members cannot go on like this. The hon member of the Executive Committee may proceed.

And what is more, management committees have already made use of this privilege. Hawston did so; then Stellenbosch, while Daniëlskuil was the first. Matroosfontein has already approached us in this regard. There were further applications, for example from Carnarvon. The opportunity does, therefore, exist for management committees to exercise greater decision-making powers. [Interjections.]

The hon member referred to a case in his constituency in which a management committee resigned as a result of a negative attitude on the part of the town council, in particular the town clerk.

This matter was brought to my attention and I specifically sent officials who held joint consultations for thirteen hours with the management committee and the council. They came to an agreement, but the problem is that a management committee resigns so easily and then expects one to negotiate with them. How can one negotiate with a body that has resigned and no longer has any powers or legal capacity? [Interjections.] If there are problems, we are only too willing to hold discussions, because the only way problems can be solved at a round-table conference.

The hon member for Walvis Bay referred to discussions that were held in Cape Town with the executive director, discussions at which certain problem areas were singled out. A letter about this matter has already been sent to the town clerk. The hon the Administrator is quite prepared to give consideration to assigning certain functions to the regional services council in order to overcome the obstacles.

The hon member for Bishop Lavis spoke about taxi ranks for kombi taxis. There are three possibilities. Firstly the question can be submitted to the Metropolitan Transport Advisory Board, by the local authority concerned, for incorporation into its programme. Secondly, there are already chain stores and private bodies which make provision in this regard, for example in Constantia Village. Thirdly, as far as street parking is concerned, the local authorities concerned can reserve space for kombi taxis. As far as private applications are concerned, these are normal rezoning applications which can be dealt with either by the local authority or by the province, depending on the circumstances.

The hon member for Britstown said there were town clerks who disrupted relations. Of course this is true. There are people who disrupt relations on every council and on every body. We have enough examples of this. The moment this comes to our attention, we send our liaison officials to hold discussions, and if this does not produce the required results, I deal with the situation myself.

The hon member for Hawston referred to the fact that members of management committees do not receive the same remuneration as municipal councillors. However, the fact of the matter is that the Administrator sets a maximum, and a council may, within the limits determined by the Administrator, which are based on the grading of local authorities, determine remuneration for its councillors and management committee members. He can pay either nothing, or the maximum, of any amount in between. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, hon members will say that I am flogging a dead horse, but I should like to take this opportunity of making a final statement on beach apartheid. I hope the Chair will allow me to ask the hon the Administrator two questions. Firstly, I want to know whether the hon the Administrator has ever been removed from a beach while relaxing there with his family. Secondly, I want to know whether the hon the Administrator knows what it feels like to be removed from a beach with one’s family. I have been watching the hon the Administrator for the past two days, and he seems to me to be a good Christian. [Interjections.] That hon member must be quiet. I shall deal with him later.

Order!

I noticed that the hon the Administrator was a good Christian, and it seemed likely to me that he went to church every Sunday. Because of this, I wish to present the hon the Administrator and his MECs with a small gift today. Before presenting it to them, however, I should just like to read what it says: “All God’s beaches for all God’s people”. Mr Chairman, please afford me the opportunity. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon member has left the podium, so his turn to speak has come to an end. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Nuweveld may proceed.

In the few minutes available to me, I want to devote my speech entirely to the question of discrimination.

Mr Chairman, will the hon member also ask the hon the Administrator and his staff to put up those notices on the beach?

Mr Chairman, I want to state that there is discrimination between management committee members and municipal councillors. I have obtained extracts from the regulations, and there is a particular regulation that I should like to quote to hon members. I quote from section 30 (2) (j):

I quote further:

I now want to quote from section 26 (e) and (f) of the ordinance relating to municipal councillors:

I quote further from section 26 (f):

Once again I emphasise the period of 14 days—

What I am getting at is that management committee members are told at the end of the month that their services will be terminated if they are in arrears with their rates, whereas White city councillors are notified in writing. They are also given 14 days’ notice by the treasurer before their services are terminated. All I am asking is that the hon the Administrator should examine this regulation as a matter of urgency. Our councillors are entitled to the same treatment as the White councillors.

I come now to Mr Nyati’s speech. I could not believe the things he said here today. [Interjections.] I am not attacking him.

†Mr Chairman, I want to ask the gentleman whether he has the courage of his convictions to stand in front of an audience in Nyanga or Guguletu and tell them what he told us about apartheid. Does he really believe in what he told us about apartheid and that apartheid is not bad? Does he walk with a blindfold when he visits Black townships or is this proof of the fact that he never visits Black townships? [Interjections.] If he has a problem with visiting Black townships and he does not know how to handle his people … [Interjections.] I will come to the gentlemen who are interjecting. I will give them some advice. They must come to the LP and we will help them sort our their problems.

It is not a privilege to receive a pension; it is a right. [Interjections.] I will explain that. If one section of the population—the Whites—can receive pensions, is that a privilege to us? It is not a privilege, but only a right, because what is good enough for one group is good enough for all of us. The Black people out there, our people, are struggling, and R80 per month is not a lot of money.

That hon MEC must fight for his people and not be scared of his White colleagues sitting here. [Interjections.]

*If he is fighting for his people, why does he not speak for himself? Why does that hon member have to speak for him? [Interjections.]

Before I conclude, I should like to touch on a delicate matter, something that affects many rural areas, in connection with library services. There are certain towns in my constituency—the smaller towns—where no library services are provided. There are towns such as Sutherland, Merweville and Laingsburg, where people have no library services, but where the White population is provided with library depots. I want to ask the Administrator to cancel the subsidies paid to those White communities that refuse to share their library facilities with our people, because I regard it as unfair that one community should have the benefit of facilities which are denied to the other.

Mr Chairman, we are fast approaching the end of this highly interesting debate, and despite deep-rooted differences … [Interjections.] Does that hon member not want to complete what he is saying? Then he will have made his little joke for the day, and we can all proceed with the debate.

Despite deep-rooted differences I think this debate has taken place in a very pleasant spirit. I want to express my thanks to the hon the Administrator, the MECs, and specifically Mr Van der Vyver, the Provincial Secretary, and all his officials, who have assisted our committee so splendidly and have provided us with answers. We want to thank them very sincerely for that.

I also thank the joint committee, of which I have the honour of being chairman, for their cooperation. It is really a pleasant committee. We have come a long way. We started off in fighting spirit, and at this stage we experience many pleasant moments in that committee. We think we are all co-operating to make a success of our committee.

I am somewhat concerned, because on the speakers’ list I saw that the hon member for Haarlem was to have spoken just before me, but he must have got hold of the speakers’ list and seen that I was to speak after him. That is why he gave his turn to speak to someone else. [Interjections.] I hope that I did not make him too scared of speaking on this occasion in this House today. [Interjections.]

I should like to refer to the hon member for Claremont. In all fairness I must make an admission today, and that is that I like the hon member for Claremont very much. [Interjections.] As a person he is a very nice man to deal with—really! He has one problem, however, and that is that politically he is completely unbalanced. He does not believe anything that a White person tells him, but he believes everything a Black person tells him. [Interjections.] We have found so often in Parliament that when he returns from his expeditions, where he goes and preys on the problems of others, he believes everything they tell him. [Interjections.] The hon member knows that where one turns off to Crossroads from the N2, there is a sign that reads: “No entry, Van Eck”. [Interjections.] The hon member must take another look at that and stay out of there. He has come to Parliament with this kind of prattle on numerous occasions, as he has with the story of Khayelitsha’s mayor this time. The hon member has done this innumerable times. He has even been to the police. But that hon member and the police do not get on, because the police work with facts, and the hon member works with fiction. That is why they do not get on. I really take exception to the hon member’s abusing the privilege of Parliament in spreading this kind of untruth that he ostensibly hears from place to place.

What I say is true! It is not untrue!

I challenge the hon member to say the same thing outside Parliament …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Is it correct for one hon member to accuse another hon member of spreading untruths in this Parliament?

Order! That does not necessarily imply that the hon member in question is telling untruths knowingly. The hon member for Parow may proceed.

Mr Chairman, I was referring to the untruths the hon member hears outside and then spreads here. That hon member does not have the discretion to distinguish between truth and untruth. That is why he comes and tells these things here. [Interjections.] I want to associate myself with the hon member for Caledon, who said, “Goodbye, Jan”. I also want to say: “Goodbye. After the next election we shall miss you as we would miss a bad toothache.” [Interjections.]

I should now like to turn to hon members in the CP. [Interjections.] The CP is participating in this debate, but not because it has members in the Cape Province, since they have to second members from the Transvaal to take part in the Cape debate. [Interjections.] We are very grateful for that, but, Mr Chairman, to show how much interest they have in the activities in the Cape Province, their provincial leader, Mr Jan Hoon, has not made an appearance for two days. He was not on the gallery once. That proves the amount of interest the CP has in the Cape. [Interjections.] Hon members of the CP should not be surprised at the fact that they are not really making much progress in the Cape. They must not be surprised, because their allies, the AWB, say the Cape must become a Coloured republic. [Interjections.] Consequently I am not at all surprised that they are not making any progress!

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member a question?

No, Mr Chairman, if the hon member sits down, I shall pay attention to him in a moment. [Interjections.]

I have a few more things to say to the CP. We on this side of the Committee have become rather tired of their allegations that the NP is a party which has no morality. [Interjections.]

That is true! That is why you are tired of it!

Let us see how blameless those hon members who are flinging these accusations at us are. Let us see if this is not a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Let us consider that. The CP policy is that there should be partition in all spheres. In this Parliament there are members of that party who refuse even to shake hands with people of colour. That is how far they take things. [Interjections.]

That hon member says there should not be any racially mixed institutions in this country. Let us take a quick look. Those hon members are in Parliament, which is a racially mixed institution. They sit in racially mixed extended committees in Parliament.

It is your system!

They sit in racially mixed joint committees. They eat in racially mixed dining-rooms. They drink tea in racially mixed dining rooms in this Parliament. [Interjections.] Why? [Interjections.]

Order! Only the hon member for Parow was called upon to speak.

Thank you, Sir. I need your protection. [Interjections.] Why are those people sitting here? Do they regard this a matter of principle? If that is so, one does not allow oneself to be misled by the monthly cheque one receives. Outside Parliament hon members participate in racially mixed regional services councils. They have representation on those RSCs. They negotiate their contributions for their communities with those RSCs. That is as far as the morality goes. Some of them even lecture at racially mixed universities. Those are our accusers.

The hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly said on television last night or the previous night that the CP’s policy of partition was really a religious one. It has the Bible as its basis. [Interjections.] That is the basest claim those hon members could make from the Bible.

In lighter vein, I heard someone telling the story of two CP members who were chatting. One told the other that there were two kinds of people that he could not abide. The first was racists—he was opposed to them. Racism was wrong and unscriptural. He did not want to have anything to do with a racist. His friend said that he agreed and then asked who the. second group of people were. He said the second group he could not abide was Blacks. [Interjections.] As funny as that may be, that is the basis of the CP’s policy. They preach one thing, but do another.

I now come to the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central and I shall give him the attention he is so eager to have. He rose in amazement and could not understand why the LP had treated him and the PFP so badly. He simply could not understand it. The hon member will not understand it, however, because just like the White voters, they had found him out. He cannot try to dismantle apartheid from a 10-bedroom house on a one-acre plot. He cannot do that. The people do not believe him.

Let me ask him a question today. Surely there is no difference between his policy and that of the LP. What is the fundamental difference in policy between the PFP and the LP when it comes to politics? Nothing at all! At this stage the LP has greater representation in this parliamentary system than that hon member does.

Why does he not dissolve the PFP and let them join the LP? [Interjections.] I shall tell him why not. He does not want to serve under a Coloured leader. [Interjections.] That is the point. The LP members know that and that is why they will reject him. The more he preaches the abolition of apartheid, the less they will believe him. The PFP would rather have a representative from Anglo American than an LP leader.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member a question?

Order! No, the hon member is not prepared to answer a question.

It is with regret that I take leave of the PFP on behalf of this side of the House today. It is with regret, because we are greatly indebted to them. The NP is greatly indebted to the PFP. They made us look better during the elections than would normally have been the case, and that is why we are sorry that they are on their death bed. We wish them everything of the best with the funeral this weekend, as well as with the birth. [Interjections.] When I look at the parents …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I have listened to the hon member for a long time now and I want to point out that not once, since the start of his speech has he spoken within the framework of the debate.

Order! I think it can be left to the Chair to decide on that. The hon member for Parow may proceed.

Mr Chairman, I have great confidence in your judgement. [Interjections.] With regard to the birth of this baby that is due this weekend, I merely want to say that when I look at the parents, I can see that this will really not be a beautiful baby. [Interjections.] Nor will it be a healthy baby. Nor do we know whether it is going to have a long life. [Interjections.] We shall have to see how hardy it is.

I want to thank everyone who took part in the debate. It was pleasant to be able to debate in such a friendly atmosphere.

Mr Chairman, I want firstly to address the question of management committees. I am of the opinion that the management committees have served their purpose. I believe that they should be scrapped and people of colour should be given direct representation on the various city councils.

We are aware that the Government is pushing management and local affairs committees to accept local autonomy. This Government must realise that management committees would not survive if they were to accept local autonomy.

What we see is that the Government is pushing for the question of delegation of powers. In the Government Gazette of 13 May 1988 it states:

We should not accept this as we believe that we should all be sitting at the same table rather than accepting bits and pieces. We are not interested in any crumbs.

On the question of beaches, as one hon member said, the beaches have been given by God and no man should deny us them. The beaches should be open to all races. If I take my child to a beach and it is restricted to Whites, what do I tell my child, daughter or son? Does one tell them that they cannot use that beach because it is only for Whites? Those beaches have been given by God and not by the NP or any other party.

Addressing the question of discrimination as far as pleasure resorts are concerned, I believe that these laws should be scrapped and that pleasure resorts should be open to people of all races.

As far as discrimination in hospitals is concerned, hospitals controlled by the province still practise apartheid. If one talks in terms of reform, the administration should by now have scrapped discriminatory laws in hospital services. All hospitals under the control of the province should be open to all races, especially the wards. In some instances, Whites have vacant beds in their wards while wards that accommodate Coloureds, Indians and Blacks are overcrowded. Where one’s health is concerned, we should not look at the colour of a person but rather look at the question of health as an important issue. Health matters should be controlled by one ministry of health. In no way should health be fragmented. An own affairs health policy would be unfeasible as Black, Coloured and Indian communities do not have adequate health personnel.

On the question of civic amenities, public open spaces should be created so that our children are able to make use of the facilities. If one looks at Coloured, Indian and Black areas, one sees that we are denied many essential facilities such as swimming pools, community halls and libraries which must be provided by the administration.

I would also like to point out the composition of the executive committee. Firstly, hon members will see that the Administrator is a White person. There are also four White MECs, two Coloured MECs and one Black MEC. There is no Indian representative on that committee. I would like to appeal that consideration be given to appointing at least one Indian as an MEC.

The moderates of South Africa wish to find an answer to the question of power-sharing and, whatever constitutional moral answer may be negotiated, in reality there will be a combination of strategies that will have to be looked at to bring about peace and stability in our land. Therefore, we believe that all hurtful discriminatory laws must be done away forthwith. [Interjections.]

Order! Before I call upon the hon Administrator to reply to the debate, I wish to appeal to hon members. I think they will agree with me that we ought to afford him a fair opportunity to answer the questions that were put and the points that were raised and that we ought not to bother him unnecessarily with interjections. I know call upon the hon Administrator to speak.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Chatsworth Central has requested that an Indian be appointed to the Executive Committee of the Cape Province. May I say that I have no objection in this connection. I am not responsible for the appointments myself. The hon member and his party can make the necessary representations through his Ministers’ Council to the authorities concerned. If they approve it, an Indian member on our executive council would be fully acceptable.

*The hon member for Nuweveld broached a few matters. Apparently he is not here at the moment. I shall merely dwell briefly on that aspect.

He referred to discriminatory legislation. A White person who is three months in arrears with the payment of certain municipal rates or service charges receives 14 days’ notice before then probably losing his seat as a city councillor. In contrast a member of a management committee gets twice as long, ie six months, but he does not get a rectification notice giving him 14 days’ grace to correct his mistake. It is difficult to know which of the two is the easier way out—three months plus 14 days’ notice or six months without notice. What certainly is clear, however, is that one would like to have a situation in which one does receive notice. I fully agree that the two systems must be equal in all respects.

Here comes the hon member now. I want to tell him that I fully agree that the two systems should be put on a par. To tell the truth, a few days ago the hon the Deputy Minister of Education and Culture in the House of Representatives phoned me about this problem. I can tell the hon member that procedures have already been initiated to correct this situation. After the municipal elections in October last year a survey was made of all problems experienced with the implementation of the relevant electoral ordinances. A list of representations are now being made to rectify certain unreasonable provisions and certain differences that cannot be justified. The hon member may rest assured that with the next election there will be the utmost degree of uniformity possible.

†The hon member for Port Elizabeth Central has stated that the Administrator has the right to change ordinances. I think he knows full well that this is not true. He should know better. There is a prescribed procedure to be followed when ordinances are to be changed or amended. It also involves the standing committee. One cannot take a short cut. One cannot circumvent the standing committee or ignore it.

There are also other channels to be followed and those are the fixed and prescribed channels which should be followed for the amendment of an ordinance. The hon member, after so many years of experience, should also know that an Act of Parliament takes precedence over an ordinance or provincial legislation. The hon member should also know by now that one cannot nullify an Act of Parliament by changing, ignoring or not applying subordinate legislation passed by a provincial organisation.

Ordinance No 20 of 1955—I think that is the ordinance referred to by the hon member—on the reservation of separate amenities by local authorities specifically states that a direction by the Administrator may not be in conflict with the Sea-shore Act and the Administrator in this connection would derive his rights from the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act.

The hon member raised the question of the appeal in the Port Elizabeth case and he also insisted on an immediate reply across the floor. The hon member knows very well that that is not possible when it comes to this specific point. The point in issue here was that an appeal was lodged with regard to a court judgement in a Port Elizabeth beach case, namely where a certain demarcation was made, and I want to state categorically that this appeal has nothing whatsoever to do with apartheid. The hon member should know this. In fact, this matter was fully dealt with during last year’s extended public committee. This matter was fully dealt with and the hon member has, to my mind, intentionally endeavoured to transfer a purely legal complication to the political arena.

The legal point in question was that the judge found that in this particular case there was a demarcation of a beach and that that was null and void on account of the fact that the city council of Port Elizabeth merely passed a resolution to this effect and then implemented the resolution. The judge found that the city council should have supported the resolution by means of a regulation and that they should have implemented the resolution in terms of such a regulation. This finding was completely unacceptable. It has nothing to do with apartheid or demarcation and we were supported by very strong legal opinion. The fact is that we have some 674 odd local authorities of various types and kinds …

Mr Chairman, with all due respect, there is an appeal pending in this case. Are these aspects now being argued not sub judice? I do not want to interrupt the hon the Administrator, but I have some difficulty with that.

Order! Is the hon member raising a point of order about this?

As the Chair pleases.

Order! I shall listen attentively to the hon the Administrator. If the hon the Administrator is discussing the legal aspects of the case, I think this could be tantamount to a breach of the sub judice rule. If he wants to discuss the facts, however, I shall allow him to do so. The hon the Administrator may proceed.

Mr Chairman, I shall not discuss the legal content of it; I merely wish to say that we have between 600 and 700 local authorities who have over the years passed thousands of resolutions and implemented resolutions with regard to various services. If this one were to be null and void on account of the fact that it did not act in terms of a regulation, it would mean that thousands and thousands of resolutions implemented by various local authorities over many, many years would be null and void as a result of the fact that they were not supported by regulation. This is the simple issue at stake and it has nothing whatsoever to do with apartheid.

As a result people are not going to be allowed on the beach.

Good heavens, Sir, there is less than 1% that has any reference to apartheid or beaches. Many of them deal with service or service charges. The hon member does not understand the point at issue.

*There is also a complete misconception amongst hon members. The hon member for Groote Schuur, who is a prominent legal man, knows very well that the Administrator is not empowered simply to amend an ordinance at will.

I just want to dwell on this aspect for a moment, because there is a complete misconception amongst many hon members, or perhaps they are taking of the opportunity to advance such a misconception for political gain, ie that the Administrator simply has the right to implement an ordinance at will.

It is not that easy. It would mean that two kinds of representations could be made to me. It would mean that one group of people could make representations to me to the effect that when I implemented an ordinance dealing with apartheid I should, for argument’s sake, close all facilities to other races, whilst another group could make precisely the opposite representations, namely that all facilities should be opened up to other races and that the ordinance should be implemented on that basis.

I have taken legal advice on this aspect. It is very clear that the Administrator—let me tell hon members that these days he is subject to a tremendous number of investigations by the courts whenever he makes even the most elementary decisions—must in all cases consider all the aspects and only then take a decision.

†He must apply his mind each and every time. He cannot merely on account of a political conviction or trend decide to ignore one section altogether and merely implement an ordinance in a certain way, while ignoring any other possibility whatsoever.

*I must clarify the matter very specifically because it crops up every so often.

The hon member for Port Elizabeth North is the only hon member who referred to the performing arts. I am very grateful to him for a very fine, positive speech he made about a wonderful service which has been furnished by the province for many years now.

In my opinion the formula for the subsidisation of Capab, in this particular case, is completely inadequate. As an example the hon member mentioned the fact that Napac—I do not want to make any derogatory remarks about this body, because it does brilliant work, as do the councils for all the other provinces—which only obtained a proper theatre and playhouse facilities about three years ago, is even at this stage getting approximately R2 million more than Capab.

There are at least three major, serious problems in this regard. For this year’s budget there is only a limited amount that has been made available, and that amount has been divided up, on a proportional basis, amongst the four performing arts councils in accordance with last year’s allocation. That in itself was a mistake because, in my honest opinion, last year’s allocations did not do justice to the formula.

The second problem is that there is a complicated formula and that the subsidy is based on the data obtained from that formula. That formula relies merely heavily on the extent to which a performing arts council succeeds in drawing audiences to attend performances in their playhouses and theatres. Over the past two years Capab has excelled in this regard, and if the formula were implemented accordingly, Capab would have obtained a considerably higher portion of the additional amount made available for this year. Unfortunately that was not done.

There is a third aspect, and that is that the formula makes provision for the fact that when performances are held more than 70 km away from the headquarters, the subsidy is 1½ times that calculated on the normal basis; in other words, there is an additional 50% included.

Once again Capab, in complete contrast to the other provinces, sits with the problem that it covers a very large province. There is a regional office in Port Elizabeth which is between 800 km and 900 km from here. There is a regional office in East London, which is probably more than 1 000 km from here, and Capab must also cover the coastline from here to the Northern Cape, a distance of 1 000 km.

Hon members will realise that in the case of this vast province an increased amount of 50% is totally inadequate. I can therefore only hope most fervently that the relevant Government department will find a new base year on which to establish the formula. It is all the same to me if the previous or present financial year is taken as the base year, because then I would know that all the arts councils would receive a just allocation and that Capab would get a fair share.

†I wish to convey my sincerest appreciation to the hon member for Rylands for the very positive speech he delivered here. It was his first speech yesterday morning. I also appreciate his clear understanding of the intricacies and the difficulties faced by the provincial government, especially when compelled to apply legislation with discriminatory facets.

*I can assure the hon member for Dysselsdorp that the envisaged appointment of a chairman in regard to the regional services council in the Oudtshoorn area has not yet been made. I had an opportunity to speak to the hon member, and in this regard he also made certain proposals to me and gave me some input. I shall also hold further discussions with his opposite number, the MP for Oudtshoorn, as and when necessary, and we hope to make an appointment soon.

I can only devote attention to a few hon members. The hon member for Walvis Bay asked for a free port, and I can only say that although we do not have the powers, in this regard the hon member has our full co-operation and support.

The hon member for Walvis Bay also mentioned another very important matter, and that is whether the Walvis Bay budget could not be included in the budget of the Cape Province. We would be only too glad to do so. I do not know whether there is a specific reason why this is not done by the State, and I can give the hon member the assurance that as a provincial government we shall discuss this specific matter with the Department of Constitutional Development and Planning and report to the hon member on the outcome.

†The hon member for Bonteheuwel, also in passing, made mention of a prescription, in all probability by the Cape Town City Council, forbidding a Black ambulance driver to drive in Sea Point. I cannot believe this could be the case and all I wish to say is that if this is the case one can be sure it certainly does not meet with my approval. I am prepared to condemn such action unequivocally, without any condition whatsoever.

*In these final moments, as many other hon members have done—but I specifically want to do it on behalf of the Cape Province and the provincial government—I want to express our very sincere condolences to all those who lost family members in South West Africa. Throughout the years South West Africa has been an integral part of the RSA, probably more of an integral part of the Cape Province than of any other province. It is our people who are there, and it is South West Africa’s people who are here with us. We trust that there will soon be peace and an end to the unnecessary war and bloodshed. In this regard I want to link up with what was said by so many other hon members.

During this session the major political problem highlighted by several hon members has been that of apartheid. I do not want to dwell on that, because then I would actually be entering the political arena. I do, however, want to dwell on that aspect which very closely affects us as a provincial government, and that is something that relates to the question of apartheid.

I am referring to the question of general and own affairs, and also the dilemma experienced by the provincial administration in performing its functions and implementing its resolutions in this regard. The provincial government is a general affairs body in accordance with the classification made in terms of the Constitution. The composition of the Executive Committee is multiracial. The composition of the staff is multiracial. May I just say here that there is a plethora of new opportunities, unfortunately limited by the availability of funds, for posts and the filling of such staff posts by non-Whites. Let me also say that at this stage there is complete parity in regard to salaries. The performance of my task and that of the Executive Committee has a multiracial basis. By the very nature of our composition we are geared to performing our task on a multiracial basis.

In contrast I acknowledge the principle of own and general affairs, as embodied in the Constitution, and in accordance with the Government’s policy, whereas one cannot disregard the fact that the Executive Committee and I are involved in the implementation of general affairs policy. In regard to the implementation of provincial responsibilities, the provincial government therefore has a multiracial composition, and one of our major problems lies in entrusting certain own affairs functions to the provincial government, whether in its own right, as an agent for a principal or as an own affairs department.

The combining of the two concepts under one authority makes the implementation of the functions by me and by the MECs very difficult, and credibility could even be at issue. There are open beaches and there are own group beaches. There are open libraries, to which the hon member for Nuweveld referred, and there are closed libraries administered by autonomous municipalities. There are open museums and there are own affairs museums. There are open hospitals and there are own affairs hospitals. As long as these two concepts coexist and are jointly administered, particularly in so far as one person or body is responsible for the implementation, whether it be the Administrator or an MEC, there will be a contradictio in terminis and a duplication of costs in the majority of cases.

It is my honest opinion that it is hardly possible to administer an own affairs and general affairs museum within one community. Donors, visitors, supporters, employees, trustees and the friends of the museum are people representing all population groups. For a long time now there has been a tug of war about the classification, initially of a large number of museums—considerably more than 20 or 30—the overall majority of which have eventually, after lengthy discussions—I am grateful for that—been allocated to the provincial government for the purposes of administration. At the moment there are still six museums in regard to which negotiations have to be conducted. In all six cases the communities and the trustees want these six museums to be administered as general affairs museums. With the best will in the world I cannot agree to their being run as own affairs museums. We shall simply have to await the outcome.

Libraries are equally problematic. Autonomous local authorities decide whether their libraries should be open to other races or not. In regard to libraries which are not open to other races the public puts pressure on the Administration. In large communities libraries or library depots should, in fact, be duplicated where there is sufficient demand for this, where there are sufficient readers and inhabitants, where the vastness of the area justifies it and where they could be accessible to all the people of all the groups. My Administration and I are experiencing serious problems in running some libraries as own affairs libraries and some as general affairs libraries. I think it is undesirable to have the provincial government of the Cape Province continually subject to this pressure. The provincial government’s task must be one of furnishing a service to all groups, for example in regard to our regional services councils, our roads, our traffic police, our nature conservation and our performing arts. If there have to be own affairs facilities, in my opinion it is desirable for them to fall under the control of own affairs departments and not under that of the Administration.

The same applies to beaches and resorts. The provincial government, as an own affairs body, should never be directly involved in the control of own affairs—at best it should do so on an agency basis in order to curtail costs. The principle of own affairs and general affairs is Government policy and is part and parcel of the Constitution of South Africa. I do not want comment on that. I merely want to emphasise that for the provincial government, as a general affairs body, it is difficult to perform own affairs functions in its own right, and the Cape Province ought to be relieved of this obligation.

It is not desirable to have the furnishing of services politicised. The only exception ought to be when services are rendered on an agency basis, provided the same facilities are also available and accessible to the public as a general affair and the duplication is justified on the basis of existing needs and population figures. I can also add that it should be justifiable on a cost basis too.

I have great appreciation and understanding for the dilemma of totally inadequate funds. I am grateful for hon members’ support for the budget. I am glad that hon members understand that the implementation of the province’s increasing functions with less funds than last year will mean that this year we shall probably have 15% less available—this being the inflation rate in round figures—and that we shall therefore be able to furnish 15% less in regard to services and/or projects in the course of the year. I appreciate hon members’ greater interest in provincial activities and functions, something which is clearly apparent from their participation in this debate. I also appreciate hon members’ contribution towards making this debate a positive one.

Already there discriminatory measures on the Statute Book, and my Executive Committee and I feel just as unhappy about that as many hon members of this Committee.

Since I am speaking about members of my Executive Committee, and because of a remark made here about Mr Nyati, who is entrusted with Black welfare, I just want to tell hon members that he is a man of absolute integrity. What he said here he would say in any company. He is not one who makes speeches that happen to be suited to a specific occasion or to gain popularity. That is why the provincial government will again try to make decisions, on the basis of discriminatory legislation, in such a way as to cause the least possible dissension if such decisions cannot be avoided owing to existing statutory provisions.

If I must sum up the course taken by this debate, Mr Chairman, there is only one conclusion to be drawn, and that is that financially 1989 is going to prove to be a crisis year for us, a year of little money and of extremely strategic priority planning. With the funds available to us my Executive Committee and I can hardly carry out our responsibilities satisfactorily, and it is a pity that we are faced with a build-up in the backlog.

I want to express my sincere thanks to the hon the Chairman of the Extended Public Committee for his esteemed and highly appreciated chairmanship, and to the hon member for Parow for his impartial chairmanship of the joint committee and his accessibility to members of my Executive Committee and members of the joint committee. I want to express my particular appreciation to the hon Whips for the way in which they handled the debate, something which required considerable unravelling during the course of the proceedings, and also to all the hon participants for their very positive and greatly appreciated contributions.

For me personally it was a privilege to have been able to participate in the proceedings, and for the members of my Executive Committee and I it was a privilege to have been able to report here to hon members on the activities of the past year. We tried to do so honestly and have not attempted to withhold any information from hon members. That will always be our policy and our viewpoint, in the years ahead too.

We are grateful to our officials. We have top-class staff throughout. I want to extend my thanks to them, under the guidance of the Director-General, Mr Van der Vyver, for their assistance during this debate and also in the course of the year.

I thank hon members and wish all, who are apparently to face an election shortly, every possible success. I want to thank those who were not fortunate enough to return—either from personal choice or because they are not going to be successful—for their interest and contributions in regard to provincial matters.

Debate concluded.

The Committee rose at 15h43.

Mr Chairman, I want to carry on from where I left off yesterday. The hon member Mr Mokotjo, MEC, outlined the education problems of the Free State for us yesterday. I have also travelled about in the Free State a bit and have seen how many of the White schools which were built originally to accommodate approximately 500 pupils nowadays have between 40 and 100 pupils. Here are pupils who do not live in White residential areas but I want to suggest that they should be allowed to utilise these schools. Money was spent to build these schools and I think this would partially solve the education problem as regards classroom accommodation.

In the same breath I want to express my disappointment. I was shocked yesterday when the hon member for Witbank discussed the visit of the Pope in a debate here, because he is the spiritual leader of the Roman Catholic Church. It would seem as if he was canvassing votes, because I know that there are many Whites who belong to the Roman Catholic Church.

However, the fact of the matter is that the hon member said that the Pope had not visited South Africa. What are the reasons for this? Hon members know that the Pope has said repeatedly that he cannot agree with South Africa’s policy of apartheid. Now the CP wants to go even further. They want to force their policy of partition down our throats and convince us that their policy will suit us. I want to give the CP the assurance that they will not get any support for their policy from the Coloured community. This partition policy is totally unacceptable in my community. [Interjections.]

The LP has repeatedly emphasised that we are not going to allow ourselves to be shunted around. We are going to decide for ourselves. We are not prepared to sell our birthright. That is what the CP must remember. I want to mention again that the CP will definitely not find supporters among our people, because we do not accept the homelands policy either.

We in the LP believe that South Africa’s salvation lies in a geographic federation in which all South Africans will share. It was also noticeable that in yesterday’s debate the CP speakers created the impression that only the CP and the NP were relevant to South African politics. This is a big mistake. This idea of theirs is a political illusion. After all, everyone in this House knows that the LP plays a key role in this Parliament.

Last year I mentioned that the CP should remember one thing. If in future—if they ever came into power—they want to implement their policy, they would have to negotiate with the LP. [Interjections.] Today we want to tell the CP frankly that it will only be possible to implement their dream world of partition with the blood of South Africa’s children—the White, Coloured and Black children of this country.

Today I want to call out like a prophet of old: Repent brothers, cease adopting a course which will lead our people into the wilderness. There is only one course we can adopt in South Africa, and that is the golden mean. It is the golden mean, where we meet around a table and work out our destiny—like I mentioned the example of the South West Africans yesterday. We must be afforded this opportunity. I feel it is so important—one cannot gauge this—and we do not know today whether we have 20 years or five years in which to work out our destiny. We must guard against being caught unawares; otherwise we are all going to suffer, because it is going to be too late. Our future, and that of our children, is also at stake. Today we are here to make a contribution to ensure that everyone in this country is facing a future in which they are assured of peace.

If we look around us—the MEC mentioned the frustration of the Blacks yesterday—we see that there is so much tension and uncertainty. The CP is confusing some Whites so much that many of them are going to behave like the Whites in Zimbabwe and Mozambique—they are going to leave South Africa. We need these people. I want to plead here that we need one another. It is a fact that we cannot exist alone and neither can the Whites.

In South Africa what is going to be projected from here is going to be very important for our image abroad. I hope that the newspapers are not going to wrest what the hon member for Witbank said here yesterday regarding the visit of the Pope totally out of context. However, I think it is going to be exploited. There are factions that are always waiting for something like this, particularly when it comes from the Whites. Anything which sounds discriminatory is very welcome to them. They are going to make use of this, and it is going to be to our disadvantage. We are improving relations in our country and abroad, but yesterday this was suddenly bedevilled here. Now the CP wants to prescribe to us what to do, but I do not think they are equal to the task when they make mistakes like that.

There is a matter I want to bring to the attention of the hon MEC entrusted with hospital affairs, namely an incident where a couple were involved in a motor car accident outside Bloemfontein. I read about this in a periodical this morning, and I shall show it to him later on. These people were assisted by Whites who arrived on the scene of the accident. An ambulance was summoned, but they had to wait approximately four hours for one to arrive. The Whites who waited with the injured persons felt very bad about this. I do not think they were aware of our circumstances prior to this. After the injured persons had eventually been taken to Pelonomi Hospital they had to wait in the corridors for a further two hours before they were treated.

This is an example of things which make our people very unhappy. It is not clear to us what the conditions in White hospitals are, but that is a reason why Pelonomi Hospital and other Black hospitals in the Free State are so unpopular. People who need medical attention must wait for hours. A sick person’s family is told, for example, that they must complete a form while the person is dying. I feel there should be an arrangement that a person whose condition is critical should be treated first and his card can be filled in later. As I said yesterday, this is where the problem lies.

The injured persons were picked up on the side of the road by our ambulance men, who do not have paramedical training. Then they had to wait for hours, in great pain, without receiving any medical attention. I feel that the relevant MEC should apologise to the persons concerned on behalf of the administration of the Free State because this incident harmed our image. There are very good relations in the Free State, and I feel this will strengthen our cause in future. In this way we can develop our relations further.

Mr Chairman, allow me in this second speaking turn to react to some of the comments made by hon members with regard to certain functions of the administration to which I am attached.

At the outset I want to say that some of the statements made by hon members were so positive and encouraging that they fill one with gratitude and make one realise how hard hon members have worked to obtain the relevant and correct facts in order to debate meaningfully on certain subjects. Such responsible and constructive commentary is encouraging to all of us, from our hon Administrator to my hon colleagues in the Executive Committee and the officials of our Provincial Administration, and gives us further incentive to work in the interests of the Free State and all who live there with dedication and renewed vigour despite the financial restrictions, as reflected in the budget under discussion.

If I were to hand out Bloemfontein’s roses today, the hon nominated member Mrs Jager would definitely get the largest and most beautiful bunch of roses. [Interjections.] I think the hon member made a very meaningful speech, characterised by great insight and responsibility, on the activities of the Subdirectorate: Library Services. In the process she gave much appreciated recognition to this very important aspect of the province’s activities. What the hon member said with reference to the importance and value of a library in any community cannot be emphasised enough, and that is why it is my privilege to thank her today, not only for her positive standpoint with regard to the activities of the Subdirectorate: Library Services, but also for the fact that she succeeded eminently in singling out, broadening and enhancing the general perception in respect of libraries and their intrinsic value.

The hon member requested me to provide more information about the activities of the Subdirectorate: Library Services. It is a great pleasure to comply with her request. As my hon colleague, Mr Mokotjo, mentioned yesterday, 18 library buildings in Black residential areas are in the planning stage at present. Naturally their construction is subject to the availability of the necessary funds. It is the province’s ideal to establish a library in every Black residential area in the province, once again subject to the availability of funds.

Just as in the case of Whites, financial support to libraries in Coloured and Indian local authority areas for the erection and operation of libraries is classified as an own affair under the control of the Ministers’ Council in question—I want to emphasise that—whereas the traditional library services of the Provincial Administration, viz the provision of books and other library material, as well as supportive services, are classified as general affairs.

I have mentioned that this classification has not yet been realised as an own affairs function of the own affairs administrations in question. In no way, however, does this imply that all development with regard to libraries in the Coloured and White communities in the Free State has come to a standstill. On the contrary, provision is being made in the 1989-90 financial year for library buildings for nine White communities at Boshof, Excelsior, Hertzogville, Hoopstad, Koppies, Lindley, Parys, Reddersburg and Warden. In this connection I should like to refer hon members to the memorandum of the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning which accompanies the budget document.

As far as Coloured residential areas are concerned, the requirements indicated in the planning and building programme for the next five years include the provision of library facilities at Luckhoff, Diamanthoogte at Koffiefontein, Freyville at Fauresmith, Kareehof at Boshof, Sandershoogte at Jacobsdal, Noordmanville at Trompsburg and Ebenhaeser Heights at Wepener.

I also want to broach something that the hon member for Western Free State mentioned. I am referring to the hon member’s statement to the effect that if library development took place in Black and White areas, the Coloureds would also be entitled to a rightful share of the so-called provincial cake. I do not think we have any problems with that; I agree with it wholeheartedly. I want to contend, however, that the insinuation, if only by implication, that the requirements of the Coloured people with regard to libraries are not being met, is not correct. I have mentioned that seven Coloured towns have been placed on the list of priorities, but I must add that specific problems are experienced in most rural Coloured towns, especially in the Southern Free State. In many of these towns there has not been any significant development with regard to township establishment and township planning as yet. It is difficult to effect physical development, such as the construction of a library building, before these processes have been concluded. We must remember that a plot, preferably serviced by the Branch: Library Services, is needed for the erection of a library. There are enormous deficiencies in this respect, especially in the Southern Free State.

With reference to museum services in the Free State, the hon member Mr Aucamp did an excellent job and made a meaningful contribution. The hon member’s speech attested to considerable insight into and a delicate attunement to what the Free State has achieved in this sphere. What he said about the establishment and materialisation of the Nasionale Afrikaanse Letterkundige Museum en Navorsingsentrum in particular attests to his having made a considerable effort to obtain the correct facts about this. His positive contribution is much appreciated, and we thank the hon member sincerely.

In conclusion I should like to react to the speech made by the hon member for Southern Free State concerning racial conflict at the Philip Sanders resort near Bloemfontein. During his speech—I state this with great responsibility—I got the impression that a small war had broken out at the Philip Sanders resort on 16 December last year. In my mind’s eye I saw the blood flowing. Those members who read Die Burger this morning will have seen that this story was given considerable prominence. I should like to ask the media to place this rectification too. I want to avail myself of this opportunity to place the whole matter in perspective.

The available information indicates that this was merely an isolated case, where over-enthusiasm, fueled by rather too much firewater, got the upper hand. In my opinion the fact that Blacks and Coloureds were involved in this is insignificant, because that is something that happens regularly. I think it is healthy for people to tackle one another every now and then and to—if hon members will excuse the expression—“panelbeat” one another’s faces a bit. This lends some excitement to life!

In my opinion this whole incident was insignificant, because it frequently happens—we must expect this—that where a large number of people are gathered together, there are differences of opinion. The human ego is such that if there is a difference of opinion, there is only one to sort things out, and that is to tackle one another and to see whether one cannot change the other’s general appearance somewhat! That is what happened there. I want to dispute most strongly the impression that was created that this incident had involved racial conflict. I also want to say that the resort is open to all population groups—to Coloureds, Blacks, Indians and Whites. The only factor that determines the accessibility of the resort is its capacity. One’s colour or racial affiliation plays no part. The right of admission is strictly reserved, and if someone does not behave himself properly, he is either removed or not allowed there again.

I also want to mention that visitors who turn up in large numbers are expected to comply with certain procedures. Two or three buses full of people, whether they are Black, Coloured or White, cannot simply turn up at the resort without prior notice and expect to gain access. The reason for this is that in the past there were huge groups that turned up at peak hours without having made prior arrangements, and when they were refused access, or were delayed while the resort’s management was trying to make alternative arrangements to accommodate them, they said they were being discriminated against. There have been cases of people turning up at the resort in three to four buses during peak hours, and if there is any delay, they go and see one of the local political gurus, such as one woman in the PFP who keeps me on my toes about the so-called discrimination that ostensibly takes place there. I made it clear to her that we expect a certain amount of consideration and courtesy from the people who visit the resort. If everyone tries to co-operate, I think we shall make the Philip Sanders resort the showpiece that in fact it should be.

Previous speakers mentioned that it was one of the finest resorts in the Free State, and I want to agree with that wholeheartedly. I think it is the duty of every Free Stater, as well as of other visitors, whether they are Free Staters or people from outside the province, to respect the dignity of this resort. We fought for this resort and waited for it for a long time, and we have it now. We are certainly not going to permit outside elements to destroy it or give it a bad name.

Mr Chairman, I have found the debates of the Extended Committee very interesting. It is a pity that we are able to discuss the affairs of the Free State in this way only once a year. I wonder whether one should not consider the possibility of arranging for such discussions to be held twice a year in future.

I want to begin by reacting to certain allegations that have been made and standpoints that have been adopted by some of the hon members. The hon member for Heidedal took up an attitude which I do not believe to be conducive to consensus politics in South Africa. In 1983 we introduced a totally new dispensation in South Africa—a dispensation which has opened up new horizons for us with regard to mutual understanding as well as mutual respect. Approaching this matter in a spirit of antagonism and reproach, however, will get us nowhere. I want to ask the hon member whether all our problems would be solved overnight if we were to abolish the Group Areas Act with immediate effect in South Africa. I want to tell the hon member that that would not solve our problems.

It could begin to solve them!

Yes, but the process has been initiated. We have begun to create free settlement areas to take the sting out of the Group Areas Act.

They will have to abolish it, whether they want to or not!

I want to ask the hon member for Robertson to contain himself. I have a strong argument on this matter, which affects the Coloured community as well. I contend that we must approach this matter in a spirit of respect for one another’s sentiments and standpoints, otherwise we shall not make any headway. If it is so important to the Coloured community that the Group Areas Act be repealed, why do we not make it an own affair and give them the right to open up their areas to all people?

[Inaudible.]

Order! The hon member for Heidedal must please give the hon member for Parys an opportunity to speak. If the hon member wants to ask a question, he must do so in the proper way. A dialogue across the floor cannot be allowed.

I do understand and respect the standpoint adopted by these hon members, but if we do not approach the matter with mutual respect and understanding and if we reproach one another, we are not going to make any headway at all. We have been learning lessons since 1983, when we introduced a new dispensation in South Africa.

In this connection I feel impelled to refer to the conduct of the hon Chairman, Mr Sanders. If there is one man in the Coloured community who has been striving to solve problems of this nature by means of discussion and consensus, it is the hon Chairman. A monument has been dedicated to him in the Free State in recognition of this.

Furthermore, I contend that other opposition parties in this Chamber have been making ambiguous statements and advancing arguments which we do not always understand. The hon member for Schweizer-Reneke made a very illuminating statement yesterday. He said that he was also trying in all earnest to find solutions to the problems of South Africa. Surely that was the purport of his argument. Do hon members agree? However, he did not discuss the real solutions. He proceeded to criticise what the NP was doing. Unfortunately, that is what we have come to expect of the CP.

If we are trying to find real solutions and to govern South Africa into a new dispensation, we cannot do so merely by criticising the actions of the other parties. Unfortunately, I have to say that there are hon members of that party who merely express a lot of criticism, arouse a great deal of antagonism among other people, and then walk away from the situation. [Interjections.]

The task that the provincial administration has to perform through the agency of the Executive Committee and the Administrator has to be in the interests of all the inhabitants of the province, of course. The race, colour or level of development of these inhabitants of the province does not matter. In this sphere the foundation has to be laid for peace and harmony. This obviously requires very good judgment, expertise and an understanding of the needs and aspirations of all inhabitants of the Free State.

Moreover, the time has come for all hon members of all three Houses to become involved, in a judicious and tolerant way, in the task and function of the Executive Committee of the Free State, so that these ideals may be achieved. It is obviously important that we should understand one another’s viewpoints and that we should discuss matters without making any reproaches, so as to reach consensus within the framework of what is possible. It is important that we should not insist on services and facilities which cannot be provided in terms of the budget and structure that can be maintained in the Free State. Nor can we adopt a boycott attitude if these services and facilities cannot be provided. Using boycotts in South Africa to obtain services and facilities will get us nowhere.

There are many things in terms of legislation and obligations imposed upon me that I as a White person resent, but I have to accept them because they form a necessary part of the development that has to take place in the country. In the same way, all communities encounter irritations in the process of orderly government. Hon members know what I am talking about. I do not have to spell it out. Our rate of individual taxation is very high, and only 20% of South Africa’s people are really able to pay these high taxes. This is done for the benefit of all population groups, and we must surely respect and appreciate that.

We all pay taxes!

Yes, we all pay taxes, but we do not all pay taxes in the same proportion.

But that is an insult!

No, it is not an insult. There are opportunities in South Africa for every person, whatever the colour of his skin, to make his mark and to better himself if he is prepared to work.

I could take hon members to Black people in my constituency who are financially better off than I am, but then hon members must take note of the amount of work they do and the initiative they show. No one in South Africa is prevented from using that initiative and achieving success. We should stop criticising and saying that there are too many poor people in this country, and we should encourage these people instead to become more productive and more involved in order to improve their own position.

We have a democratic system. We do not have a socialist system which would prevent people from achieving success in the economy of this country. There is nothing to prevent them from doing that. It depends on the individual’s own aspirations, and he should not rely on what others can or want to offer him. That course is open to all in South Africa.

The other night I was invited over by a Coloured man. I wish hon members could see what that man has achieved. I take off my hat to him. He made use of all these opportunities. He did not come by all these financial benefits in a dishonest way. He did not steal these things. He worked for them.

If we are to bring down the inflation rate in South Africa, each individual in this country will have to put his shoulder to the wheel and become more productive for his own sake, but also for the sake of South Africa as a whole.

But then we must be given the opportunity of doing so![Interjections.]

Apartheid is a stumbling block! [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Heidedal. [Interjections.] Would the hon member for Heidedal please contain himself.

I want to refer to a few matters that have become relevant in the Free State, especially in view of the urbanisation of Blacks. The Black people in South Africa find themselves at the stage of urbanisation today that the White people entered in the ’thirties. There are a few aspects that we must examine. Where Black people are becoming urbanised, they are making certain demands as to where they want to live. We are finding, for example, that in those areas where job opportunities are most plentiful—around the gold mines, for example—urbanisation is proceeding much more rapidly than in other areas. As a result, we find that there is a shortage of land and erven for these people to live on. I am afraid that we are not providing land rapidly enough for these people to settle on. I say this with all due respect to the people involved in this matter, because it is not an easy task, but I think the process can be accelerated.

There is one aspect that worries me, however, and that is that we used to have buffer areas around all Black townships. Where housing problems have arisen, the buffer areas are now being penetrated in order to provide erven there on which these people may settle. I have some misgivings about this. In certain parts of the buffer areas, there is a natural boundary between adjoining land-owners. In other areas, however, there is no natural boundary, and when this is the case and those buffer areas are penetrated, it creates enormous problems for the owners of adjacent land in that these people trespass on that land.

There have been shooting incidents in my constituency. One could argue that the police should be called in, but it is not so easy to identify the people who have trespassed on that land. My request is that each case should be individually assessed, and where the owners of adjacent land may be prejudiced, we should not enter the buffer areas. Then we should buy additional land for these people to settle on.

I want to come to a different matter, namely regional services councils. It is interesting that there are two municipalities in my constituency that have been taken over by the CP.

I should like the CP members who are talking among themselves at the moment to listen to what I have to say in this connection. If they do not want to listen, they can read it in Hansard afterwards.

The CP has distributed pamphlets in my constituency in which they condemn regional services councils and say that they are not going to co-operate with them. They have distributed these pamphlets and maintained that they are not going to be associated with the regional services councils. However, one municipality in my area has now sent out a newsletter to the inhabitants of that town in which it says:

It goes on to say in which region this town has been included, but then it says:

This is ambiguous. In one sentence they reject it, and in the other they accept it. My question to such a municipality is whether or not they are going to accept any funds that may be made available to them by regional services councils. This deception practised upon the inhabitants of a town by the CP must be stopped. The CP itself must put a stop to it. They must put a stop to this kind of ambivalence in terms of which they mislead their own voters about what may be in their true interest. In the interests of orderly government we can no longer allow this in South Africa, and I promise hon CP members that I shall get the better of them in my constituency, no matter how long it takes me. However, I am not going to allow them to deprive the inhabitants of the benefits to be derived from the introduction of regional services councils.

Mr Chairman, I should like to take up where I left off yesterday. I said quite a number of things yesterday in the few minutes into which I crammed them. This morning when I read my copy of Hansard, I saw quite a number of things which I had not put clearly. I said to myself that I would discuss these matters with the local MECs. I should now like to put a number of questions and then react to a few matters which were mentioned by previous hon speakers.

I should now like to ask the hon the Administrator whether he appoints the road council committee and how many members it comprises. If it is appointed by him, how many of these members are from the Brown population? Are there members of colour who serve on this road council committee? By the way, this is the first time that I have heard about a road council committee.

I next want to concentrate on the hospital at Kroonstad. My colleague the hon member for Opkoms has just spoken about an accident which occurred in Bloemfontein. This is not an exceptional case, however. This simply happens at all Brown hospitals. I discussed this matter in my constituency and spoke to many of my colleagues, not only from the Transvaal but also the various provinces. It is ironic. It is one of those cases in which a Brown man who cannot master a Black language is always on the losing side. This question can only be solved if an appeal is made to nurses at hospitals who receive emergency cases to speak Afrikaans or at least English. The nurses who receive those people must exhibit a more positive approach so that the question of race is eliminated. It is true that there are many cases in which people are admitted to the Tumela Hospital at Kroonstad at eight o’clock in the evening. I have evidence and proof of this. People were perhaps involved in an accident; had received a knife wound or merely a slight injury. These things happen regularly on Saturday evenings in our community. Instead of treating that person immediately—it is merely three stitches in the arm or wherever he has to get them and it looks rather serious with the fat bulging out—he has to sit and wait. What happens in that trifling case? It creates feelings. What happens is that a person is admitted and placed on a stretcher to lie there until the resident doctor arrives. I made enquiries at Kroonstad about the resident doctor and he is available. In fact there is a doctor available 24 hours a day.

It is a fact, however, that people at this hospital have to wait for a doctor up to five o’clock the next morning. What does that wound look like then? The fat is bulging out and nurses bandage it. The next morning that wound is stitched. What does that person then receive when he is treated five hours later? At twelve o’clock he walks out with a packet of pain killers. These are facts and I can prove to hon members that they occurred because we investigated this matter. The important aspect is the attitude of the nurse at reception.

In addition there is another problem, that is filling in cards, showing the identity document and the statement on salary and so on. When our people go to hospital, they expect immediate treatment. At that point they are so emotional that they want to demand immediate treatment but then such incidents occur which lead to racial conflict and give the hospital a bad name.

I kicked up a fuss about the district surgeon at Kroonstad last year and there was quite a controversy about it. I can report back, however, by saying that the situation has improved. I also spoke to Dr Kruger, the district surgeon. He feels that he requires a colleague to help him with the Blacks and relief in the hours he works because he is there on Mondays, Wednesdays and Thursdays already. He works half a day on Wednesdays if he has time to do so. There is so much work that I actually pity the poor doctor.

What happens now is that people wait from six o’clock in the morning. If the doctor says casually on Thursday that he cannot come the next Monday but only on the Wednesday, the people wait in the hospital from Tuesday evening to ensure that they will receive help.

A further problem which the district surgeon experiences is that when he has completed the green and white form, especially the white form for Black people, he goes to the local office to hand it in—our people call it the “pass office”—and, when he arrives there, his form is taken in and he is told that they will return to the hospital with it.

I do not consider this a motion of confidence in him but it is disgraceful that officials have to return to the hospital to make sure that that person received treatment within a period of three months before the doctor can write his note. It is a disgrace that Dr Kruger, who is already so overburdened with work, should have his decisions questioned as well. I think the province should definitely see how this doctor can be assisted so that we may at least have a special day on which Dr Kruger is able to visit Brown residential areas, even if it is only once a fortnight, because we do not have so many cases. If he treats people there instead of at the hospital, racial conflict will be reduced.

I now want to speak about the central laundry. My people approached me about the new manager there, a certain Mr Trollip, who is a very good man. For more than a year they did without a permanent manager. Now they have a manager and they want to know how it is possible that a Brown man was not appointed because 95% of the workers are Brown people. The remaining 5% who are Whites are transported in two Kombis. The plea now is that the institution of a bus system for the Brown people there should be investigated.

I know that this will give rise to additional costs but, as I have already said, the interests of the voters must receive preference in emotional cases. I should like to appeal to the province to see whether we cannot introduce this bus service for our people. There is a bus service already for the private organisation which serves that route. The argument of all the voters is why the Whites should be conveyed by Kombi and they cannot be conveyed. I am sympathetic towards the province. The expense will be great. We may well try to subsidise this bus service.

Another problem which I had in my constituency arose as a result of housing loans granted to road workers. These people receive a meagre salary. Although they are subsidised up to 90%, we have the problem that the province had no say in how the houses should be built. These people were cheated. Although the argument may be used that, after the loan has been approved, it is a matter between the owner, the builder and the building society, we have to take into account that road workers—with every respect toward my people—are illiterate in the main. They are people in the lower-income group. I say this with respect. What they had expected was that the province would see to it that the housing was constructed correctly.

We may put forward the argument that the province is not involved here. I should like to say that the province should supervise this because what is happening now is that the house is falling apart. The building contractors has already left and now we are landed with the problem. The person has already started paying. There is a great deal of clayey soil at Kroonstad which is a serious problem. It has happened already that a R25 000 house does not have electricity. Facilities are inadequate. The house was merely built in order to finish it. Just as these people bear the blame, I also bear blame as the member of Parliament because I should also have seen to these matters. I want to appeal to the province that we join in seeing whether there is no way of assisting these people.

At the same time I want to react to a few things which were said. I want to get to the MEC, Mr C Henney. A question was put on when the Provincial Administration would take over and manage library services in Coloured areas. The reply was that such a step was not envisaged. It is customary in this province for the Provincial Administration to provide local authorities with library material and auxiliary library services while local governing bodies themselves deal with the management of libraries. It also deserves mention that the operation and management of Coloured libraries inter alia has been allocated as an own affair to the Ministers’ Council and Administration concerned. I first want to ask the hon MEC whether he is permitted to enter White libraries. Is he permitted admission by law? He administers libraries but as a Brown man he is not permitted to visit any library.

Secondly, if libraries become an own affair, it is his duty as a Brown man to prevent this and to refuse to administer something like this because he is not permitted there himself.

The next matter is that libraries are a source of information which I believe should be accessible to all people. It is only this source of information which can accord the individual in this country his rightful place. In spite of the backlog, we have to start looking at this.

The hon MEC spoke about various areas where priorities are fixed and he then gave an account of why this had not yet been done. It is more important to throw open White provincial libraries than to build an own affairs library. In any case I cannot understand how own affairs libraries are to be built by the province.

I argued yesterday that they should actually be built by the province but now the hon MEC says that it is an own affair. Are own affairs going to build the libraries and give the province books? This is what it is about here. I now want to ask the hon MEC why he does not tell the hon the Administrator that he refuses to deal with these matters as they are an injustice to him as a person and a Brown man.

I also want to refer to museums. How does the hon MEC distinguish between a White, a Brown and a Black museum which are own affairs now? [Interjections.] Our people also had a share in many of the wars which are depicted in museums. Although Afrikaners do not want to admit it, it is a well-known fact that our people reconnoitred the interior with the Afrikaners.

We were mounted servants!

Museums cannot possibly become an own affair. Museums are monuments for descendants of South Africans, whether White, Brown or Black. If we have to erect museums, we will have to erect museums to the Sharpeville riots, 1975 and 1985, because these are all events in the Black man’s freedom struggle. Then a museum will also have to be erected to Nelson Mandela and many of our leaders of the past. Do not let us turn this into a political game, however. Museums are general affairs entirely and it is impractical to make them own affairs.

I now get to the hon member for Heidedal. It is common knowledge that there is inadequate housing in Black and Coloured residential areas. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to say a few words. There are questions to which I must react.

Ha o batle ho bua Sesotho?

Ha ke bua Sesotho ha o na ho utlura. [Interjections.] Before I react to those questions, I would like to say something to the people who do not know the Free State. In the Provincial Administration of the Free State there is a wonderful team spirit among the Administrator, the MECs and the officials. When I refer to my colleague, Mr H J R Simes, MEC, I am not forgetting his officials, for they are also included. They are a team of dedicated officials. I can truly say they have a team spirit.

Some matters pertaining to Blacks are not dealt with by me but by my other colleagues. For example, Mr Henney deals with libraries, and he and his officials perform their task with dedication; the same can be said for Mr Simes, who is campaigning for the erection of a hospital at Thabong. He is very diligent, as are Mr Dreyer and his officials, who are working on access roads to the Black townships.

I also cannot fail to mention that he is largely responsible for this team spirit that prevails in the Provincial Administration. I once again wish to thank the three Houses for their constructive involvement in the activities of the province of the Orange Free State.

I now want to react to certain questions. The hon member for the Western Free State is concerned about Borwa, at Tweespruit. To cut a long story short, I wish to say briefly that I shall endeavour to obtain funds from the National Housing Commission—if they can be made available—and to use them for the provision of electricity, bearing in mind what the community can afford to pay. However, it would be senseless to build a library at Borwa if there is no electricity.

As regards Vredefort, the nightsoil truck at Vredefort uses the old road—a road crossing the railway line. It is an old road which was used originally when the Coloureds and the Blacks still lived together in Mokwallo. Now the Coloureds have moved out. They are on the other side of that road, beyond the railway line. They are apparently offended by the fact that the nightsoil truck passes in front of their houses. However, it is the old road which they used. If possible, an attempt can be made to find another railway crossing somewhere else. This matter is at present the subject of negotiation between the SATS and other bodies, but it will be investigated. We do not want to offend other people.

I must also react to the question put by hon members for Lichtenburg, Randfontein and Witbank. All of them referred to the large amounts paid to Black local authorities by way of bridging finance. The amount of R164 million was mentioned. I can just explain that of this amount approximately half, namely R78 million, was paid out in respect of the Lekoa council. During the 1987-88 financial year alone R27 million was paid to Lekoa. A large part of the remaining R86 million was handled by the development boards at that time. The provincial administration applies its own criteria in considering applications for bridging finance, and amounts due to the province are deducted before amounts are paid.

I think the hon member for Lichtenburg’s speech has been covered by the replies I have already given here.

Mr Chairman, I want to thank the hon Administrator, his colleagues and staff, as well as the people of the Free State for having agreed to allow our people to live in the forbidden country! Once it was said that God created this piece of land for Whites only, but now it is becoming multiracial. I can assure hon members that our people will prove to be an asset to the province.

However, when a community makes a home in any area, their needs must be attended to. Therefore it is necessary to provide housing for our people who have now decided to make the Free State their permanent home. The hon the Administrator may be able to assist in bringing about the proclamation of Indian areas in the Free State as soon as possible, so that the housing problem of my community can be solved. If Indian areas are identified, I can assure hon members that the Indian community will make them model townships. One will find no shacks; indeed, as time goes on there will be houses which will be the pride of the area.

In Natal the main industry at present is sugar cane. Who was responsible for this industry? It was the Indians that came from overseas. Today it is one of our major industries. Likewise I am sure that when the Indians settle in the Free State they will be an asset to that province.

The communities are now experiencing teething pains because they are establishing new businesses in a new area. As far as they are concerned, they might require initial assistance for the establishment of the new businesses. Once they are permanently settled, they will contribute to the development of the towns in the Free State. They will not fail in their duty to render meaningful services to the province.

For the sake of happiness and good neighbourliness, I ask that the recreational facilities of the community and other needs of the Indian people be seen to. I know and I am sure that the hon Administrator and his colleagues as well as the staff will not hesitate to help build my community in the province. I am confident that he will find the means to make them stay and live a happy life.

I want to thank the hon MECs Mr Henney and Mr Mokotjo for the interest shown by them in the affairs of my community in the Free State. Perhaps it would be a good idea to allow the formation of a management or consultative committee in the areas in the Free State where there is a concentrated Indian population. This could be a forum for discussion of the various problems, which could then be solved amicably.

I think we shall be on the right path to work together to build a happy South Africa for all.

The hon member for Parys said in his speech that 20% of the people are paying taxes. This is not the truth. I wonder if he can prove that? These are not the words which will help to build good relationships in South Africa. These are some of the symptoms of the disinvestment that has been introduced. I hope and trust that other hon members will not speak in those terms.

Mr Chairman, to begin with I should just like to deal with a few constituency matters before I react at a later stage to one or two political statements which were made by, among others, the hon member for Lichtenburg, who is unfortunately not here now, and the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke.

I should first of all like to dispose of the few constituency matters which I wish to discuss. I want to begin by talking about roads. When one looks at the roads in the Southern Free State, one must bear in mind that the Free State Administration is certainly also under financial pressure. They should nevertheless be congratulated on the standard of the roads in the Southern Free State.

I have adopted this approach for a very special purpose. I have said this with regard to the vast majority of roads, but I exclude one road. I wonder whether anyone can guess which road it is? [Interjections.] It is the road between Hertzogville and Boshof. [Interjections.] This is a road which has attracted my attention over the years, as I am sure it has also attracted the attention of the hon the Administrator. I have a feeling that the great danger of the loss of human life with regard to this specific road was not adequately taken into account in laying down the norms. I want to make the statement that I do not believe that there has been as great a loss of human life anywhere in the Southern Free State, and possibly in the entire Free State, considering the relatively small volume of traffic on the road, as in the case of this specific road. It is well known that a portion of the road has already been tarred, and the great appeal which I wish to make today, is that the rest of that road should also be surfaced with a thin layer of tar.

Moreover, it is also common knowledge that the road construction materials for this road are difficult to obtain in the surrounding area and that the maintenance costs of that road must be very high. Viewed from a purely financial standpoint, it would ultimately pay the Free State Provincial Administration to tar that road.

With reference to a second road, I want to say that we note with great gratitude that the road between Petrusburg and Perdeberg has been tarred. There is a great deal of consternation among the voters in my constituency because it is being said that the completion of the road from Perdeberg in the direction of Kimberley may possibly not take place as quickly as we would like it to. I accept that the hon the Administrator and the MECs have already been in contact with the National Transport Commission in this regard and that in due course we may also have good news with regard to the completion of this road.

A further constituency matter which I should like to raise, actually entails a word of thanks to the hon MEC, Mr Simes, for his announcement that township development at the Hendrik Verwoerd Dam is finally—perhaps I should not use the word finally, because it sounds too unfriendly—being proceeded with. It is so vital that the requests of this community, which for years now has been a totally established community, with regard to progress in the direction of township development and the recognition of a fully-fledged local authority, be acceded to.

It is also vital that the request with regard to the establishment of a cemetery be acceded to, because this is an extremely sensitive matter. However, Mr Simes has not made specific reference to this. I should like to express our great gratitude to him for having striven to solve this problem for us.

I should like to come to the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke, but I first want to refer to the absence of the hon members of the PFP. I know certain hon members have already referred to this, but we cannot simply allow it to go unchallenged. I do not believe it has ever happened before in Parliamentary history that a party has not been represented by so much as a single hon member for a maximum of five minutes in the course of a debate. Arrangements were made with the Whips for speaking times for hon members of the PFP but they were not present. This is a tremendous reflection on the party and on what they think about the interests of the voters of the Free State. I know that there is an election in the offing. This party, which will form part of a party which is yet to be established, are also going to enter into Free State politics as allies of the CP. [Interjections.] Then their actions of the past two days will be brought home to them. [Interjections.] Yes, they are going to be allies of the CP, just as they were the allies of the CP during the referendum that was held with regard to the tricameral Parliament. The hon members of the CP would do well to take note of the actions of their allies.

I should like to turn to the participation of the CP. Through their hon leader, they made it a matter of principle last year not to take part in so-called mixed bodies. They made a principle of that. On the basis of that principle, they walked out. I am merely asking what has now become of their principle.

It was not a principle!

The hon member for Schweizer-Reneke may feel free to consult Hansard. They did make a principle of it, and what has become of it now? [Interjections.] Just let me tell them how they are dealing with this policy standpoint of participation, or non-participation in a so-called mixed body. They are participating, both now and on a continuing basis in the tricameral Parliament, which is also a so-called mixed body. However, what are they recommending to their town councils? Let me quote from a document that was prepared by the hon member for Middelburg. He is not a member of this committee, but he is a member of the CP, and an MP. What was his recommendation by way of a written document to the CP-controlled town councils? It reads as follows:

The CP is therefore affording legitimacy and status to this committee. That is how the CP deals with their policy standpoints. They tell their town councils not to participate, but they participate in them.

You do not understand the difference! [Interjections.]

I understand very clearly what is written here. They also tell the town councils the following:

Just imagine! They must not take part in relations committees. My goodness! Is it not of the utmost importance that we in this country of ours should establish and maintain good relations between all the population groups?

The hon member attended a formal meeting of CP town councillors and said that they should not take part in relations committees. If that is the path along which the CP wishes to lead South Africa, I want to tell hon members that I have little hope.

Furthermore, the CP suggests that CP councils should, however, nominate a representative to negotiate with other population groups at their request. In other words, the CP is not interested in negotiation. If it takes place at their request, then the CP town councils may be permitted to negotiate by way of a favour, I might almost say.

The CP—specifically the hon members for Schweizer-Reneke and Lichtenburg—voiced the standpoint here that there was no such thing as equitable power sharing.

First of all, what is power sharing? Let us just analyse and evaluate the word. What is power sharing? Will hon members concede to me that power sharing, as we use the word in South African politics, actually means joint decision making?

The Whites govern in the final analysis under the present system.

Yes, under the present system, but I say that power sharing is regarded in South African politics as being synonomous with joint decision making with regard to the same matters. That is what it is.

There is no such thing!

I now want to ask the CP, if they do not wish to take decisions jointly and in fact, in terms of the instruction which was given to the CP town councils, they do not even wish to serve on relations committees, or to be involved in any way in any body in which joint decision making is to take place, what is the alternative? The alternative, of course, is partition, but what sort of partition? If it could be partition in the absolute sense of the word, is it viable to say that in a community such as one finds in South Africa, one can have a lack of domination and a situation in which, I am tempted to say, everyone will be cock of the walk in his own sphere? Everyone would be able to decide for himself with regard to his own affairs if partition could be implemented absolutely with regard to geographical areas and also with regard to the division of an integrated economy. However, if absolute partition cannot take place …

I actually wish to interrupt myself for a moment. I first want to ask how absolute it can be. Initially we heard that the CP’s standpoint was that it could be absolute. The hon member, the first person to back down a little, said that they would be satisfied with 70%. If White South Africa were to consist of 70% Whites, this would be good enough and according to them partition would be accomplished.

Let us take a look at that model. What about the remaining 30% which the CP accepts as a permanent part?

It is part of the growth.

I am not even talking about the growth. Let us accept the model of the hon member for Lichtenburg. What about the 30% who would be a permanent part of their White South Africa? What would the CP do about them? Remember that the CP’s policy states that there is to be no domination. In other words, the CP would have to involve those people in their decision making processes. [Interjections.]

Is the hon member’s policy one of domination, then?

On what basis? On the basis of joint decision making, of course. It cannot be otherwise. Then hon members will be faced with power sharing—and of course, that is not allowed. [Interjections.] I am telling the CP that their policy standpoints do not make any sense. Allow me to contrast these to the policy standpoints of the NP and to how we are implementing them in practice. When we speak of power sharing, we are speaking about joint decision making. Surely the hon member for Lichtenburg, who has been in South African politics for some time now, took joint decisions together with the Blacks of this country in the multilateral ministers’ council. Surely he did that. He took decisions together with them. It does no good for him to turn his back on that today. Even today, in the tricameral parliament, he is taking joint decisions on a consensus basis—often, not always, but often—together with other population groups in this country. [Interjections.]

Because we are an extended committee of the Provincial Council of the Free State, I shall now turn to provincial matters. Let us look at the structures that have been established under the leadership of the NP government. An executive committee comprising representatives of all the population groups …

In proportion?

Elected by the State President!

Forget about the numbers, and remember that the basis of co-operation is central to everything.

Let us look at the Executive Committee of the Free State, and let us look at how this Executive Committee operates, bearing in mind its composition. The Coloured and Black representatives who serve on this Executive Committee most certainly state and uphold the standpoints of their communities most forcefully. Has there ever been any question of conflict? Has there ever been any question—the hon the Administrator will be able to reply to this—of even a vote being necessary? I doubt it. The hon the Administrator will be able to tell us that it was not even necessary for a vote to take place, and for this reason I want to tell the hon member that power sharing and joint decision making between groups in South Africa who share the same economic and social structures, is possible and attainable and that it may take place to the benefit of all.

Let us take a look at other power-sharing bodies.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member a question?

Yes, the hon member is prepared to answer a question.

If the hon member’s assumption is correct that this wonderful power sharing is now going to work, and that it is not necessary to vote or to do anything of that nature—a wonderful consensus exists—why is there a need for the President’s Council to force legislation through under the present system if there is no consensus?

Let us not attempt to fool one another this morning with regard to this matter. After all, we know that consensus is not always necessary. It will certainly have to be possible to carry through final decision-making with regard to certain matters. Surely we know that. Let us look at the total picture. Over and above those few instances in which the President’s Council had to resolve a conflict situation, there are the 99,9% of other instances in respect of which this was not necessary, and in which every population group was recognised in the governing and administration process of this country. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, before I come to the replies I must furnish to certain members, I want to take this opportunity to refer to what several speakers said in this debate about the Free State and what a lovely part of the world it is. I should like to endorse that. For me the Free State has never looked as lovely as it does this year. We have had very good rains. The grass has grown beautifully. It stands lush and tall.

The danger, of course, is that this wonderful, lovely Free State can potentially be fairly dangerous. The winter is coming. Hon members know the Free State winters. It is cold and there is a great deal of frost. The grass dries up and there is the very real possibility of veld fires. The possibility increases by the day. If the long grass in this lovely Free State of ours were to catch fire, and this were to be fanned by the familiar dry westerlies, a great deal of damage could be caused in the Free State, particularly to our farming population.

That is why I have seen fit, at this particular meeting, to refer to this matter in public and to bring to hon members’ attention what the Roads Branch is doing to combat this danger. Every year the Roads Branch issues instructions to employees of the Roads Department to make effective temporary or permanent fire-breaks around road camps. In those instructions they are asked not to establish road camps near farmers’ threshing floors, where one finds large stacks of plant material; to check the sparkcatchers on all machines and to have them properly adjusted; to prohibit the burning of grass in the road reserves as well as the burning of proclaimed weeds; to discourage farmers from burning road reserves to serve as fire-breaks and to encourage them preferably to create firebreaks on their own land alongside the road reserves. These instructions are sent to all Roads administration employees annually by way of a circular. This is also followed up by personal instructions to the regional road engineers, the Roads superintendents and road foremen. Contractors appointed to cut the grass on road reserves are also prohibited from burning any grass in the reserves and must ensure that all cut grass is removed from the road reserve. These steps are taken by the administration and conveyed by way of a circular to its workers.

It is also necessary, however, for our farmers to take note of the fact and to do something about it themselves in an attempt to prevent fires which could cause them great losses. It is necessary for them to cut these fire-breaks alongside the road reserves. It is also necessary for each member of this Committee to speak to his voters in his constituency, particularly if he represents a Free State constituency, about this matter and to ensure that this idea is conveyed to the whole farming population of the Free State so that the wonderful Free State does not pose a danger to the farmers and can remain a place of beauty that one can have the pleasure of utilising.

The hon member for Heilbron expressed his appreciation for the prompt and comprehensive replies he received to his questions. I should like to say that it is nice to know that when an honest attempt is made to furnish good service, this is noticed and appreciated. He also thanked the officials, and on their behalf I thank him for his acknowledgement. But he went on to refer to certain aspects which, in his opinion, made it vital for the Free State to get more money for roads. In this he was very strongly supported by the hon member for Ladybrand. I can assure the hon members that to those of us in the province it is like music to our ears to learn that hon members of Parliament are prepared to stand by us and help us agitate or make representations for more money for the Free State. I trust that other members of this Extended Committee will join forces with the hon members for Heilbron and Ladybrand.

The hon member for Smithfield referred to potholes in the roads that have to be repaired. Let me just tell him that we are continually giving attention to that aspect—it is a matter to which the Roads Branch gives regular attention. He also asked for the Wepener-Smithfield road past the Knelpoort Dam to be built as quickly as possible. This road has already been identified as part of the permanent road network, and the Executive Committee has already approved a new configuration, and this will be done in due course.

When we come to the evaluation of priorities, however, this road does not yet qualify; in fact, the only new projects that the Roads Branch will be able to tackle in this new year, and for which it has enough money, will be the rehabilitation of the Edenville-Heilbron road, the Reitz-Petrus Steyn road, the reconstruction of the Heilbron-Petrus Steyn road and the construction of the new bridge at Wepener to replace the Jim Fouché bridge, and possibly the reconstruction of the Glen Lennie-Harrismith road.

The hon member for Opkoms asked for a Durban road sign at Winburg. To create as much uniformity as possible, the provinces have reached an agreement and an interprovincial manual of road signs has been drawn up. The Free State is known for the fact that when it concludes agreements with the other provinces, it sticks to them. This means, of course, that we shall consequently not be able to comply with the hon member’s request.

The hon member for Winburg referred to conditions on tertiary roads and lodged a plea to the effect that certain conditions justified giving special treatment to such tertiary roads. He actually asked for a change in the policy that is implemented when restoration work is done on tertiary roads in these special circumstances. The hon member then referred to a special instance in his constituency.

I should like to emphasise that the Roads Branch is never disinclined to make special arrangements and to give special attention to exceptional cases. It would be irresponsible of the Administration, however, to adapt the policy every time in such circumstances in order to accommodate those very exceptional cases within the scope of the policy. The matter to which the hon member referred has already received attention, and a reasonably comprehensive letter has been written to the relevant member about this. In the meantime instructions have again been issued for an in-depth investigation into this particular matter and for all the facts to be garnered so that we can once more see whether something cannot be done about this.

The hon member for Heidedal referred to Dr Belcher Avenue and the railway crossing. The day before yesterday in the joint committee meeting the hon member was told that this was a matter for the Metropolitan Transport Advisory Board, or Bloemmet, and the fund for the elimination of dangerous crossings. I do not know when the hon member used that level crossing, but the bridge has already been built and a portion of it has also been opened to traffic. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Heidedal put certain questions and is now receiving the replies. If he now wants to ask other questions, there is a way in which to do so. The hon MEC is furnishing his reply and we cannot have a constant dialogue. The hon MEC may continue.

Thank you, Sir. In reaction to a reprimand from the hon member Mr Aucamp, this hon member continued to insist, very emotionally, that Indians should be permitted to move into the flats.

I do not know to which flats the hon member is referring. I am not aware of any such flats standing empty. If the people were to move in, they would be contravening a law because this can only be done by way of a permit. I want to agree with the hon member Mr Aucamp that it is very irresponsible of any member of Parliament to encourage members of the public to contravene a law of Parliament. Whatever the hon member may do, the Executive Committee of the Orange Free State is a responsible government, and although applications for permits are always treated very sympathetically and with great compassion, the Executive Committee would never act irresponsibly and encourage people, willy-nilly, to contravene the laws of Parliament.

The hon member for Witbank accused us of ignorance because we had referred him to the Department of Transport for answers about toll roads. It is not because we do not know that we did not answer his questions; in fact, the hon member would be surprised to discover what we do know. We did so simply because this particular occasion we are dealing with today was created to inform hon members of Parliament about matters relating to the provincial government, answers to which are not all that readily available elsewhere. If the hon member really does not know where to get the answers, let me tell him that there is only one toll road in the Free State. It runs from Kroonstad to the Vaal River. It is 109 km in length, the toll-fee is R8 per car and the province receives no money for the road.

Another matter to which the hon member referred, however, is of much greater importance to me, because he can only obtain the correct information about that from us, and here I am referring to the question of roads linking up with Black towns. If the hon member were to bruit abroad what he said in connection with Black access roads—I prefer to use that terminology—he would be perpetrating an untruth which could be exploited in certain circles. These access roads to Black towns are evaluated in the same way and on the basis of the same norms as other roads, and their priorities are determined accordingly. Not all of them are tarred either, and it is untrue to say that such an access road, which only carries 10 cars, is upgraded at the expense of other roads. The fact of the matter is that the Provincial Administration has never given attention to access roads to Black towns. The Executive Committee has decided to assume responsibility for that in the future, as it has assumed responsibility for any other town. The total length involved, ie in regard to the access roads to Black towns, is 67 km. The total cost involved in upgrading those roads and getting them into shape will be R9,3 million. The conjecture is that we shall complete this task by 1994. We do not offer any excuses for that.

Like the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke, the hon member also referred to the visit of the Pope and to the R364 000 spent by local authorities. That matter will be dealt with much more competently by the hon the Administrator.

The hon member for Bloemfontein North devoted his speech to civil defence. It was clear to me that this hon member had taken a great deal of trouble. I also want to thank him for the fine things he said about the civil defence organisation as a result of the contribution that organisation made during the floods in the Free State. Praise is not something one often gets, and what the hon member did is of great value to a voluntary organisation.

I listened to the problems the hon member pinpointed, and I can assure him that to a very large extent they coincide with the problems we ourselves identified during the floods. Attention is still being given to this matter in an effort to prevent this from happening again.

A disaster or a flood such as the one we had last year does not occur every year. Experts regard the flood as one which occurs only once in 200 years. The result is that members of civil defence organisations do not frequently come face to face with actual disasters. One is, of course, grateful for that fact. Civil defence, however, furnishes training, and disasters are simulated as realistically as possible to acquaint civil defence members with such conditions.

Unfortunately there is a very rapid turnover in the membership of such an organisation. As the hon member himself said, interest is not as great as one would like. In spite of the training given to these people, during an actual disaster one is always working with a large group of people who are completely inexperienced and have not yet received the necessary training. Of course this complicates matters.

I listened with great interest to the new approach to which the hon member referred. I can assure him that proper attention will be given to this. The hon member also referred to the name civil defence and to the fact that it could have a Defence Force connotation. This matter has been discussed very thoroughly at interprovincial level. Actually it is not the Afrikaans name that creates problems, but the English name “civil defence” which is linked to the Defence Force. It has already been decided that in future this organisation will be known as “civil protection” and not “civil defence”. We believe that in that way we shall eliminate the Defence Force connotation.

The hon member for Parys spoke about buffer strips. In the past Black areas were created with a buffer strip of 500, 300 and, in some cases, 150 metres. When local authorities for Black people were established and obtained full-fledged status, not only was the land on which construction took place given to the Black local authorities, but all the land, including the buffer strips.

As a result the buffer strips are actually the property of the local authority, and on its property a local authority can make whatever developments its sees fit. Applications are made to the Administration, however, when it is necessary to encroach upon a buffer strip as a result of developments to a town. The Administration then considers every case on merit. There are certain provisions, as hon members know for themselves, in terms of which permission is granted, or withheld, when it comes to encroachment upon a buffer strip.

The hon member also referred to regional services councils and mentioned a certain incident in his constituency. There is an Act making it possible for regional services councils to exist. The Executive Committee of the Free State will continue to establish RSCs—whatever a town council may happen to decide. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Western Free State referred to roads boards and asked whether Coloureds served on those roads boards. There are no Coloureds serving on the roads boards. The Free State is divided up into 20 different roads board districts. Every roads board consists of eight members. Four of these members are directly elected by the landowners in that area. The other four are appointed by the Administrator and are normally also landowners. Roads boards make recommendations about what roads need attention. As hon members themselves know, in the areas where there are roads boards there are no Coloured landowners.

The hon member also referred to housing loans granted to Black road workers of the province and to the fact that houses have been built that are no longer all that good. As the hon member said, those houses are actually in the process of collapsing. The Government makes it possible for some of its workers to obtain houses by means of so-called 100% loans. What actually happens is that the Government, or the Provincial Administration in this case, guarantees the amount that the relevant employee himself must pay. I think it is normally about 20% of the overall price of the house. The Administration guarantees that loan, using the relevant employee’s pension as security. There is consequently no physical payment of money. The Administration is not responsible for the construction of the house or the way in which it is constructed. Building societies normally have inspectors, and when money is borrowed from the building society in order to build a house, the building society ensures, by way of its inspectors, that the house is well-constructed. In other words, it ensures that the building society’s money is well-invested.

The hon member did not say where this took place. He spoke about his constituency. Then it is probably the houses at Jagersfontein.

No, it is in Kroonstad.

Those are the circumstances involving the construction of houses, and the Administration cannot accept responsibility for the sound or unsound construction of such houses.

Mr Chairman, I just want to correct one aspect. I think the hon MEC Mr Dreyer has misunderstood me. On the basis of what took place, I asked for help in solving this problem. I also stated clearly what the problem was and said that the province was not responsible. I asked for help.

Let me just tell the hon member to hold personal discussions with me and we can see what we can do about that. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, in my re-entry into this debate I am obliged to set a few things straight here before proceeding with my speech.

The hon MEC, Mr Henney, as well as one of the hon members of the NP, tried to admonish me earlier today because I had allegedly wrested the altercation that occurred at the Philip Sanders resort out of context. I want to quote a reply from the Standing Committee on Finance: Questions and Replies (OFS Provincial Administration). The question asked was how many (a) Blacks and (b) Indians visited the Philip Sanders resort during the past year. Question (c) read as follows: Was there any overcrowding or racial friction? The reply to (c) read as follows, and hon members will also see why I came to that conclusion:

As a person who strives for the maintenance of civilised norms and standards among the people of South Africa, I reject any form of violence, whether it is a big fight or a small fight. We cannot afford to have people fighting one another. Consequently, in my submission yesterday I made a point of trying to explain clearly how we must resolve these frustrations, quarrels and disputes among people. It is a pity that this now has to be published, but if it is going to contribute to improving the racial situation in South Africa, it is all to the good, so that people can know that they must not fight one another. There are other and more responsible ways of resolving our problems in this country. That is how one should deal with the matter, and that is how I tried to deal with it yesterday in my own humble way.

It is a pity that the hon MEC in charge of roads has said now, in reply to the hon member for Opkoms, that it would not be possible to comply with his request to erect a road sign at Winburg indicating in which direction people should drive in order to get to Durban. I believe that the Provincial Administration will in fact be able, as always, to solve that problem for us in a satisfactory way.

To come back to the debate, in my re-entry into the provincial debate today, I want to devote my time mainly to programmes 3 and 4—Community Services. I think the problem to which we have devoted most attention during the past few years, and will have to continue doing so in years to come, is the need to create sufficient employment opportunities on a local as well as a regional level in view of the rapidly growing labour force and the urbanisation of our Blacks in a rapidly declining economy. What it amounts to is that we must be able to maintain social peace in the rural areas, and also in the urban complexes of our provinces.

I believe that the future struggle will have to be waged, internally on the local and regional levels, around the creation, utilisation and subdivision of the economy to the benefit of all the people of our country. One cannot therefore express sufficient words of thanks for the considerable progress that has been made in the Free State with the upgrading and training of our Black workers.

The need to expand the training facilities for Black children is something which must receive more attention. The plea made here yesterday by the hon MEC, Mr Mokotjo, that this Committee would have to devise plans for solving this problem of the training of Black children is to my mind a challenge that has been issued to us. We shall have to work on solving this problem, because things simply cannot go on in this way. That is why we welcome the improvement that is discernible in this sphere in particular.

Programme 2, in which housing and its development plays an important role, is a source of great pleasure to me. In the sphere of housing the available statistics indicate an improvement which can only contribute to greater peace initiatives among communities.

Mention was made here of squatters as an eye-sore that was still occurring. If one observes more closely, however, one will find that conventional homes are slowly but surely taking the place of squatter huts. Structures are now arising and the appearance of Black residential areas is improving. The shacks are making way for houses we need not feel ashamed of. We are pleased to see the improvement taking place there.

The expansion and improvement of health services and preventive medical services in the urban as well as the rural areas is another sphere in which Black expectations are rapidly mounting. I think it will hardly be possible to resist the pressure for equalisation of Black and White standards, and we therefore welcome what has been been accomplished in this sphere in the Free State.

The final point I should like to touch on in this wide spectrum is the need to develop social services. I want to thank the hon the Administrator and his officials sincerely for the goodwill they displayed in regard to the payment of Black social pensions. It is a pity that it has not yet been possible to heed the pleas for these grants to be paid monthly instead of bi-monthly. We in the LP will never stop contacting the Treasury and pleading for the pensions to be paid on an equal basis to all the people of South Africa, regardless of colour, culture or race.

Finally I want to thank the hon the Administrator for the training seminars being held in the Free State, at which the Coloured management committee and consultative management committee members can be trained. It is a fact that on the local level many of our leaders are not aware of their powers and functions as management committee members or as consultative committee members. The fact that the lack of communication between the management committee members and town council members has caused many economic problems to arise is proof of what I have just said. The lack of expertise also has a detrimental effect on the utilisation and functioning of these management committee members.

That is why we are extremely grateful that attention is also being given to this important aspect of third-tier government and that this is being done with much compassion. The hon member for Opkoms has already touched on this matter, but I just want to mention that it is a pity the CP decided to give a political flavour to the papal visit. It is such a pity, for until now I have always believed that we in South Africa have religious freedom; that it was always a matter that was open to all. We pride ourselves on living in South Africa, a land of freedom. I am of the Reformed faith, yet I do not look down on my Catholic fellow citizens. If the head of their Church comes to this country, I grant him the same respect and protection I would give my own spiritual leader.

In reply to the thoughts and policies expressed and stated here yesterday by hon members of the CP, there are just a few things I want to say. I want to tell them that the struggle in South Africa is not concerned with separate structures. The struggle in South Africa is concerned with co-existence, not domination. We must be careful not simply to condemn those who, for the sake of the survival of this beautiful country of ours, advocate adjustments which will be conducive solely to peace. The conquest of the future will not take place from behind the barriers of a laager mentality. Nor will development take place within that laager, or by clinging to the past and to old and obsolete ideologies.

Development will not take place if we only have our own self-interest in mind. If we give way to this, as the CP is prescribing to us, I am afraid that decay and stagnation will set in in this beautiful country of ours, as it does in motionless water.

The conquest of a future of hope takes place when people move outwards and take calculated risks. We must move forward fearlessly towards a future of mutual respect, trust, participation in freedom and a prosperity shared by all the people of South Africa. To those who advocate partition, I want to say that future security in South Africa is not to be found in clinging to privileges and a constant hankering for the past. The new South Africa cannot be built on prejudices and selfishness. Even less is it possible to move towards a South Africa beyond classical apartheid if mutual trust does not exist. Therefore I want to make an appeal to all South Africans today. Although this problem may only be present on a small scale in our province, I believe the answer to South Africa’s problems lies in the equal subdivision and equal possession of the economy.

In our province we have four MECs—two non-Whites and two Whites. We have heard here that the co-operation among them is only of the best. Let us not build South Africa on the ashes of despair but on the foundations of hope.

Mr Chairman, the CP is not a party which reaches back to the past and does not have a stagnant policy from the past; on the contrary, the party has a vision for the future and a policy for the year 2000 and thereafter and we shall continue on that road for the sake of peace.

The questions which the CP asked regarding the visit of the Pope have absolutely nothing to do with religious freedom. The point at issue is the enormous amounts of money which were spent and it is the right of this Committee to ask questions concerning the expenditure of that money.

It is a privilege for me to take part in this debate in the Extended Committee on Provincial Affairs: Orange Free State. We had a very interesting debate yesterday which covered the entire spectrum of the activities of the Provincial Administration and I hope that we shall have a very interesting debate today as well, as we have already had.

The current system of provincial government—in the Free State as well—is a direct result of the abolition of Provincial Councils on 30 June 1986. The system of a democratically elected provincial council and an elected executive committee made way as from 1 July 1986 for an appointed administrator, an appointed executive committee and no provincial council. An additional effect of this is that the budget and activities of the Provincial Administration of the Orange Free State have to be discussed here in only two days. I really doubt whether justice can be done to the comprehensive activities of the Provincial Administration in this way.

A further point which is directly related to this and which has already been raised by various speakers is the lack of the annual report on the activities of the Provincial Administration: Orange Free State during the past financial year. I am aware of the reasons given for this in the joint committee, but if we also take into account that the presentation of the budget of the Orange Free State Provincial Administration was converted into a system of budgeting by objectives on 1 April 1989 on the implementation of the financial management system in the Orange Free State Provincial Administration, with the further consequence that comparative figures for the 1988-89 financial year are not indicated in detail either, it becomes even more difficult to conduct a meaningful debate here. To this has to be added the lack of the report of the Auditor-General on the accounts of the Provincial Administration of the Orange Free State for 1987-88. In spite of this I take pleasure in participating in this debate.

After the CP left the Raadsaal in Bloemfontein for specific reasons on the first day of last year’s session, the hon member for Sasolburg had the following to say about this and I quote him from Hansard, 23 May 1988, col 11124:

If I look at the positive and meaningful contributions of my four colleagues who participated in this debate yesterday, however, it seems to me, with all due respect, that the hon member has also got hold of the wrong end of the stick here.

The fact of the matter is that 43% of White voters in the Orange Free State supported the CP policy directions in the 1987 election and the standpoint of those people surely deserves representation here too.

I next want to spend a few moments on the budget as a whole. Permit me, however, to express my thanks to the extremely competent officials of the Provincial Administration of the Orange Free State.

They are good Nationalists!

It is a difficult task which is carried out with enthusiasm. The hon member for Bethlehem should note that I spoke about the officials. I was not aware that there were conditions demanding that officials be members of the NP but we take note of his standpoint. [Interjections.]

It emerges from a closer look at the budget itself that R897 654 000, that is 88,75% of the OFS budget, comes directly from the State Revenue Fund in terms of section 4(a) of the Exchequer and Audit Act, 1975. Against this, R113 751 000, or 11,2%, of the total budget is generated from sources in the Orange Free State. The budget also provides for certain important increases as well as for important decreases. Under Vote No 4, “Community Services”, there are important increases respecting care of the aged—R5,6 million, and the care of the handicapped—R8,3 million. Nevertheless there are also important decreases as regards local government—R28,7 million, and in respect of job creation—R2,6 million. This is a total decrease of 8,1%. What I find alarming is that only R54 million, or 5,3%, of the total budget for 1989-90 is being set aside for capital expenditure as against R957,3 million, or 94,6%, of the budget for current expenditure.

It further appears from the budget that the Orange Free State Provincial Administration acts as an agent for transfer payments in respect of R226,3 million, or 22,3% of its budget. The latter must probably be seen in the light of the primary function of the Orange Free State Provincial Administration, that is the promotion of the social welfare programme regarding the Black community, as set out in a written reply to a question from the hon member for Witbank.

I should next like to look at certain specific aspects of the budget. In the first place I should like to look at Vote 4, “Community Services”. The purpose of this Vote is to promote community development within the borders of the Orange Free State. The entire question in connection with local authorities falls under this, that is under the Directorate of Local Government. The following written question which refers to this was put to the Directorate: Local Government and I quote it in full:

The reply to this was as follows, and I quote:

In other words, there have not yet been any applications for open or mixed residential areas in the Orange Free State. This reply, however, must not be read in isolation but together with the following written question. I am again quoting in full:

The the reply was as follows:

From this and in terms of the provisions of the Free Settlement Areas Act it is clear, therefore, that both the Provincial Administration and local authorities in the Orange Free State will play a cardinal role in the Orange Free State, as regards the establishment of mixed residential areas.

On Friday, 26 August 1988, the hon the Minister of National Education took part in a debate on the Free Settlement Areas Act and then the new leader-in-chief of the NP had the following to say on the subject. I quote him from Hansard, col 15718:

He then went further and said:

The hon the leader of the NP is not talking about the support of the majority of the residents of such an existing residential area. He expresses it much more strongly. He says that it must be subject to the support of the vast majority of legal occupants. Surely it is fair, therefore, to assume that he is referring to the support of at least 66% or 70% or more of the legal occupants of that residential area.

I should now like to ask the hon the Administrator and his Executive Committee, seeing that the Provincial Administration of the Orange Free State will play such a large part in the Orange Free State regarding the establishment of mixed residential areas, whether this will be the standpoint of his Administration too and, if so, how his Administration envisages establishing whether the vast majority of the community concerned is in favour of the institution of a mixed residential area?

I should next like to devote some time to Vote No 1, “General Provincial Services”, programme 3, “Public Resorts”. In terms of section 11(a)(i) of the Financial Relations Act—Act No 65 of 1976—certain matters, including the control of and power to pass legislation related to them are assigned to a province by the State President. These matters are contained in Schedule 2 to the Act and specific provision is made in paragraph 23 for the establishment of control over public resorts, leisure resorts, etc.

From the Budget and the annual report for 1986-87, which is at our disposal, it appears that provision is being made for various holiday resorts in the Orange Free State, namely the Willem Pretorius Game Reserve, the Jim Fouché Resort, the Hendrik Verwoerd Dam and the Maselspoort Holiday Resort for Whites; the Philip Sanders Holiday Resort for the Coloured community, and the Allemanskraal Dam Holiday Resort, which is currently under construction, and the Rustfontein Dam Holiday Resort which is being planned at present for the Black community. In reply to a written question as to what the standpoint of the Provincial Administration was regarding the implementation of the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act at resorts under its control, the following written reply was furnished, and I quote:

This is a very interesting policy standpoint, especially if one considers the mass hysteria of hon members of the NP in the Orange Free State regarding the CP’s implementation of the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act in towns which it controls. This is mass hysteria which we find especially in the Other Place but here “no issue” was actually made, if I may put it that way of this CP standpoint. The question arises whether this is perhaps because there are members of the other Houses present here and because the position in the Free State is as I have just explained.

On Wednesday evening, 29 March 1989, SATV reported in Netwerk on separate amenities and specifically on the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act. The Government standpoint on this was put by the hon the Deputy Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning. The person conducting the interview, Miss Barbara Fölscher, then put the following question to the hon the Deputy Minister, and I quote her in full:

The hon the Deputy Minister did not reply to this question but evaded it beautifully. When she backed him further into a corner, he came up with the following admission:

Hon members had better listen to the reply which followed. It is rather interesting—

That is the NP—

The hon the Deputy Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning therefore clearly stated that the NP Government was involved in phasing out the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act which means that a time will come when there will not be separate facilities for the various population groups. Meanwhile the standpoint of the Orange Free State Provincial Administration is diametrically opposed to the standpoint of the hon the Deputy Minister, on behalf of the Government, and they are proceeding with the implementation and further extension of the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act as regards holiday resorts under their control.

I should like to know from the hon the Administrator whether his Administration will change its standpoint on this or whether it will retain its standpoint that separate resorts are to be developed in the OFS for every population group. I next want to dwell on two standpoints which the hon member for Opkoms expressed yesterday and today. Firstly, arising from the racial incident on 16 December 1988 he said, as was stated in his unedited Hansard:

His point of departure here is facilities of their own for each group. This sounds to me a little like CP policy if we are talking here about own facilities.

We did not create conditions.

Secondly, he said today that the CP policy was not acceptable to his party but that his party’s policy and solution for South Africa was a geographic federation. What is the NP standpoint on this, however, as expressed by the hon member for Fauresmith during last year’s session, on Tuesday, 24 May 1988, in Bloemfontein? The hon member said, and I quote from Hansard, col 11505:

That is the NP standpoint on the hon member’s solution.

In conclusion I want to dwell for a moment on the standpoint of the hon member for Ladybrand. The hon member said that the CP should stop referring to Europe and its various peoples because we in South Africa have our own, unique situation. Does the hon member deny that there are different peoples in South Africa? Does the hon member deny this in saying that there is a unique situation in South Africa or does he agree or believe that we have now all changed into one group of people, which by chance can be divided into a few minority groups?

That is a stupid conclusion …

That was the hon member’s standpoint. If he therefore wants to deny the reality of people and the internationally acknowledged principle of the right to self-determination of peoples which is reflected in Europe and says that we have a unique situation in South Africa, he could at least acknowledge the reality of Africa in his situation.

Since 1963 there have already been more than 60 successful coups d’état in Africa. At present Africa comprises 33 one-party states, 13 military dictatorships and has only about 10 so-called multiparty states. He could at least accept this African reality—when he and his party try to work out a future constitution—by attempting to include a so-called bill of entrenched rights.

Mr Chairman, as the capital city of the Free State is also the rose city of South Africa, I should also like to present a bouquet of roses to the hon the Administrator, his four MECs and his officials under the leadership of the Director-General, Mr Tjaart van der Walt, for the dedication with which they deal with Free State provincial affairs, for the understanding which they have of our problem as members of Parhament that we cannot be in our constituencies throughout the year and for the prompt and friendly way they deal with the representations which we direct to them.

As regards the Sasolburg constituency in particular, I want to say thank you very much for the sophisticated road system which the province made available there to serve this highly developed industrial area, for the prompt attention which is being given to the needs we have at the hospital at Sasolburg, for the compassion with which the hon the Administrator and the MEC Mr Mokotjo are dealing with the assumption of independence and the secession of Zamdela and Refengkgotso from the Transvaal to the Free State and also for their handling of the great need which exists for a hospital for the Black community of Zamdela, not only to relieve pressure on the White hospital but also to make effective facilities for hospital services available in the Black community of Zamdela.

We enthusiastically support the effort to provide a privatised hospital service in this community, which probably has the highest percentage of inhabitants in the Free State who belong to medical funds, to be able to furnish that service. We thank the hon the Administrator sincerely for his interest in our affairs and in those of the rest of the Free State.

I should like to say a few words about the concept of hiking trails, especially those in the Free State. This an extremely interesting leisure pursuit. It is a healthy exercise and a way to live close to nature and to experience the wonders of the creation personally but it is also an educational pursuit. People whom one encounters along these hiking trails are always friendly people who always greet one another and friendliness radiates from them. It is family recreation in which old and young can join. Even old crocks with rugby injuries and other wounds are also welcome if they do not attempt the over-long trails.

When I went to the library yesterday afternoon to ask whether they had a guide book on hiking trails in the Free State for me, the librarian there laughed and asked whether there were such things in the Free State but they did find one which is a comprehensive hiking guide book for Southern Africa. I looked at that and it is interesting to note that the immediate deduction is that this concept of hiking trails has not yet become as established in the Free State as it has in other parts of our country.

Let us look at the trails which are available in the Free State. They are not all under the control of the province because there are some which are operated by municipalities, the National Parks Board and private people. Some of them are in conservation areas and have been laid out by the province itself.

At Harrismith we have the Drakensberg Botanic Gardens Hiking Trail and in addition we have the Ribbok Hiking Trail at Golden Gate, the Houtkop Hiking Trail from Loch Athlone at Bethlehem, the Brandwater Hiking Trail at Fouriesburg, the Wynford Holiday Farm Hiking Trail near Fouriesburg, the Imperani Hiking Trail at Ficksburg, the Korannaberg Hiking Trail at Marquard, the Steve Visser Hiking Trail at Leliehoek, Ladybrand, the hiking trail in the botanic gardens in Bloemfontein and the two hiking trails at the Tussen Riviere Conservation Resort. I think that the third new one has already been completed.

In addition there are new ones of which I know personally but which are not yet indicated in this guide book. They are—if my memory serves me—the Stokstertmeerkat Hiking Trail which has been laid out in the conservation area between Smithfield and Wepener and is open to the public. There is also a hiking trail to view old Bloemfontein which I think was a splendid idea of the Bloemfontein City Council. We are also aware of other towns in the Free State which have smaller footpaths in their parks and vicinity but they are not dealt with in a planned way.

The shortcomings are firstly that at this stage there are too few of these facilities available in the Free State. They are localised mainly in the eastern part of the Free State where it is mountainous and where the scenery is obviously beautiful. There are few of them available, however, in the vicinity of the larger towns and cities in the Free State and there are no shorter hiking trails available for a Sunday afternoon route either. Many of these hiking trails have to be visited over a weekend if one wants to attempt the entire trail. They are fairly long. The request from my side is that the province promote the concept and marketing of hiking trails in the Free State in a programmed manner. They should also provide hiking trails in their own resorts and recreational facilities and, as regards municipalities, take the lead in co-ordinating this matter so that we may also make use of it in the Free State. Then we people from the Free State will become even friendlier and healthier. We shall be better informed Free Staters who are grateful for the beautiful province which we have received from the Good Lord.

This brings me to the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly. As regards the Mulder brothers—that is, the hon members for Schweizer-Reneke and Randfontein—I merely want to say that it is high time that they buried their father now. With the retaliatory crusade on which they are engaged to avenge the imagined injustice done to him they are squandering the talents which they—like him—have received in generous measure. They should apply their talents in the interests of South Africa.

As regards the Democratic Party which is about to be formed—I am pleased that the hon member for Green Point is here at present—we merely want to say that we have noticed that future members of the Democratic Party take no notice of the Free State at all. They take no interest in anything which occurs in the Free State. Those hon members could well take lessons from the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly which also boycotted the Free State session last year. They found that, if one wants to boycott and ignore the Free State, they deal with one and there is trouble.

In the House of Assembly we have a right-wing party with a host of radical solutions for South Africa but they are extremely wary of applying that policy of theirs. Nowadays we speak about the “Kla P” because all they do is complain (“kla”). Consequently it is no longer the “KP” but the “Kla P”. The chief spokesman of the “Kla P”, the hon member for Witbank, referred here yesterday to the so-called philanthropic roads—the access roads to Black residential areas. What does he mean by that? He is saying that we are wasting money by building decent access roads to Black residential areas. This is the old “Kla P” concept that one does not use White money for the development of Black people. That is the concept. He talks about his colleagues in Parliament as children who cry while adults speak. This is humiliating, as if his colleagues in Parliament were inferior, immature and uncivilised. This illustrates a CP superiority in which we know many hon members of the CP are caught up. It hangs around our necks like an albatross. [Interjections.] We hope that this former clergyman, who is a member of the CP caucus in Parliament, will see the light.

One actually feels sorry for the CP because they are so easily hurt. When one wants to handle them just a little roughly, they start howling, run home and hide behind Mother’s skirts. They then complain that the children outside play too roughly with them. [Interjections.] It is pathetic to see what is happening to them. The voters no longer believe them. The voters have caught them out. The voters have discovered that the CP cannot implement its policy. There were just the two CP town councils of Carletonville and Boksburg which tried to do this.

There goes the hon member for Lichtenburg again, as he usually walks out of an argument. I have not even got anywhere near him but he cannot bear it. [Interjections.] I shall get to him yet, however. Possibly some of the other hon members will reply to this.

There are two CP town councils which tried to implement the “Kla P” policy, that is Boksburg and Carletonville. The conflict which arose from those situations indicated that the “Kla P” wanted to build the future of South Africa on warfare. They want to enter South Africa’s future with conflict and warfare.

It is no wonder that increasing numbers of White youths realise after Boksburg and Carletonville that their national service of two years will have to be extended to five years to be able to bring the unrest and riots which will erupt under a CP government under control. That is why they want nothing more to do with the CP. [Interjections.]

The by-election in the municipal ward of Sasolburg illustrated this. The hon member for Schweizer-Reneke says a person can conjure with statistics. He was referring to the fact that his party had received 43% of the support in the previous general election. In that particular ward the CP candidate received 57,3% of the support in the general municipal election last year, as the hon member said. In the by-election, support for the CP decreased to 52%, however, so there was a swing of 5,3% against the CP. [Interjections.]

We did not gain that ward but the most interesting aspect was that the “Kla P” organisation in Sasolburg was headed by the Chief Organiser, Director: Organisation, Mr Kobus Beyers, who was that hon member’s predecessor in Schweizer-Reneke.

Were you there too?

Of course, I was there—it is my constituency. He was imported from the Transvaal together with the CP candidate, Mr Louis Stofberg. For a fortnight they worked very hard in that ward. But what happened then? They had to import an entire contingent of CPs from the Transvaal.

The hon member for Witbank told us here that industries had deliberately not given their people off. He is making a mistake. People do not want to work for the CP any longer. [Interjections.] In that election the NP sparkled with the dynamics which prevailed there. The hon member can ask the hon member Mrs Jager, who is sitting next to him, about it because she was there too. She comes from Sasolburg herself.

With a contingent of local young people we took the wind out of the CP’s sails. At five o’clock that afternoon the AWB ringleaders, who had been standing shouting in the street since that morning, went to hide in the tents where pancakes were being sold. [Interjections.] I want to tell the CP that the voters of the Free State are starting to reject them.

Just look at what happened in Welkom. The three independent members of the residents’ action group simply no longer saw their way clear to continuing with the CP and trying to implement its policy. What is happening now? The NP is governing Welkom now. [Interjections.] The CP has the problem that its propaganda is not creditworthy. It is said in every CP home one enters that they want nothing to do with members of the NP because they give everything to the Blacks and the Coloureds and do nothing for Whites. That is the refrain which one hears and that is the propaganda which filters through so effectively from the CP to all of us.

This means that the Philip Sanders Resort and the resorts which we have developed for Black people in the Free State are not permitted to be developed according to CP policy. Then the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition said in the House of Assembly that that propaganda story of theirs was simply a trick. He said it was just a joke and they did not really mean it. He then said they would use White money for Black development too.

I am so sorry that the hon member for Lichtenburg has left because I want to know what the CP policy now is regarding majority occupation if this “White money” story is a trick. Last year in his notorious “maatreëlstoespraak” at the meeting of demonstrators in Bloemfontein, when those hon members boycotted the proceedings of this Committee, the hon member said that he would reduce the Black people in the Free State by means of measures (“maatreëls”) until there was majority occupation by Whites. I now want to know whether they include the Coloureds in the Free State in this majority occupation too. What do those hon members intend doing with the Coloureds in the Free State—a few hon members are sitting in this Committee who represent them. Are they to go to Prof Carel Boshofs desert or are they not part of the numbers which the CP members mentioned there?

I want to ask the hon member for Standerton whether White majority occupation in the Free State forms part of his policy.

Tell us what you are going to do with them instead.

The hon member for Standerton does not see his way clear to reply to such a simple little question. I merely want to know whether they still stand by what is written in their programme of principles and whether they have also written this off as they did the “White money” story. [Interjections.] I want to know whether hon members of the CP have run away from that.

I shall give hon members a practical example. There are 52 000 tractors licensed with the Provincial Administration in the Free State. There are just under 13 000 White farmers. If the CP wants majority occupation in the Free State, it means that fewer than 13 000 Black men may work on farms. If they put all the Whites and all the Blacks on tractors, there will be 26 000 tractors running. What is to happen to the other 26 000 tractors standing idle in the Free State? It is as simple as that. We should like to know what the Hartzenberg Plan is for these tractors which will be surplus in the Free State after the CP has taken over there. The voters are discovering that it does not help to vote for them because they cannot implement their policy. [Interjections.]

We are looking forward to the general election. We shall see what the scoreboard says after that. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I am a man of peace, but yesterday during the debate of this committee my peaceful disposition was tried to the utmost by the hon member for Standerton. Last year I confined myself to the activities of the province, but when I was given an opportunity to reply I remarked to the hon member for Lichtenburg by way of a joke that it seemed to me as if they had more than one policy, because one moment they were in and the next they were out. This year the hon member for Standerton attacked me and rapped me over the knuckles as if I had made an extremely political speech.

I am not going to talk politics, because I should like to get to the replies to the debate. However, I do want to say that if that single little remark of mine caused such a sensation in CP circles that they are complaining about it a year later, I do not know what would happen if I really attacked them.

Why do you not attack us then? We can attack one another in the election.

The hon member for Heidedal spoke about the Phillip Sanders resort and referred to the one swimming pool there. He said that if all the people get into the swimming pool they cannot swim. All they can do is jump up and down. [Interjections.] There is only one swimming pool at all the resorts in the Free State, like the Hendrik Verwoerd Dam, Maselspoort and Willem Pretorius. If the 14 000 visitors to Maselspoort on a Saturday all jumped into that big swimming pool together they would not be able to swim; they would only be able to jump up and down! Only one swimming pool is built at a resort, and I really think the hon member put a case here which was not worth much.

It is such a small swimming pool!

Then the hon member can ask us to enlarge it, and if it is an own affair of the House of Representatives, he can address representations there for it to be enlarged.

We are planning improvements there. There is the planning and installation of a public-address system, which is essential for such a resort. The housing of the staff is being planned and will be built. Tennis courts with the necessary facilities are being built and the planting of lawns and the laying out of gardens is being tackled. Now I also want to tell the hon member that we do not provide rugby fields and soccer fields. The recreational facilities at our resorts are intended for individuals and small groups of people.

The hon member for Western Free State also referred to the resorts, and then spoke about small resorts. We—the provincial administration—do not build small resorts. Small resorts are built by local authorities, such as those at Ladybrand, Leliehoek, Bethlehem, Kroonstad and Parys. We do not build small resorts for local authorities. I have made a note of all the problems the hon member raised in connection with the hospital and the ambulance at Kroonstad and we shall furnish him with a reply in due course.

The hon member for Bloemfontein East referred in a positive way to resorts, and specifically to the Hendrik Verwoerd Dam. He made an appeal for further development there. It has already been said in the proceedings of the extended public committee that we have had negotiations on the grounds there. We have now finalised this. We have provided a town commonage and now we will have to set about establishing a local authority for the town at the Hendrik Verwoerd Dam. Then people will acquire freehold on the houses there, and further development can take place there. I think it was a good idea of the hon member for Bloemfontein East that we consider tourism possibilities at the Hendrik Verwoerd Dam, but one must be very careful not to eventually damage the beautiful environment there through overcrowding.

The hon member for Heilbron spoke about hospitals and said he wanted certain information. Now I want to tell the hon member that hospitals are staff intensive. The accepted norm laid down by the Commission for Administration is 1,75 nurses per bed. Only the intensive care unit needs five trained nurses per patient, uninterruptedly for 24 hours a day. The result of this staff intensity is that the staff component constitutes 60% of the expenditure of hospital services and in the case of the academic hospitals, where the training of doctors and paramedics takes place, it constitutes 68%. The academic complex of hospitals in Bloemfontein, ie Universitas, the National Hospital and Pelonomi, constitute 65% of the health services’ budget. I shall give the hon member a few reasons for this. Undergraduate and post-graduate training of doctors is expensive. The Department of National Education’s allocation to university faculties is highest for medicine. This proves that it is expensive training.

We train hundreds of student nurses. They receive in-service training. They are therefore remunerated while they are being trained. We also have another reason for this high expenditure at the training hospitals, namely the highly sophisticated equipment, which is obviously very expensive, both to purchase and to maintain. In the budget for this financial year we had to make provision for approximately R7,7 million to R8 million—I am not quite sure of the figure, and will have to check up on it—merely for the maintenance of that highly sophisticated equipment.

The hon member for Smithfield had a positive attitude as regards Pelonomi, but also voiced strongly negative criticism in respect of what he referred to as certain shortcomings. It has not been possible to lay out and beautify the gardens yet owing to the large-scale building operations taking place there which will be completed this year. Only then can we spend money on the hospital grounds.

The hon member also referred to corridors which are dirty. I want to tell him that they are cleaned every day, but hundreds of visitors traverse those corridors every day and because grass has not yet been planted on the grounds we must expect there to be dust.

The hon member also referred to medical experts, the heads of departments, having a say. I want to give him the assurance that medical experts such as heads of departments are consulted on an on-going basis in the planning of every hospital. They are also consulted on all the facilities which have to be provided in that hospital.

The hon member also referred to shortcomings in certain units, such as the neonatal unit. I want to tell him that units of that kind are very expensive. To make provision for a single bed in a neonatal unit costs R200 000 now. It is also an intensive care unit; consequently the treatment costs are very high. I submit that we cannot spend any more money on this, particularly not at the expense of other equally essential health services. As regards the management system, my reply to the hon member is that I am satisfied and am not going to recommend any changes to the hon the Administrator.

The hon member for Actonville wanted to know why Indians could not be admitted to White hospitals. I want to put a counter-question to the hon member. Does the hon member have any objection to his people being nursed with the Black Free Staters in the good hospitals which exist?

No objection!

Of course an alternative solution would be for the hon member to send us trained Indian nurses and then we would try to make another plan.

The hon member for Welkom wanted to know what our planning was in respect of the new Black hospital. In due course key staff, such as the medical superintendent, the secretary and head matron, will be appointed. The training of nurses has already started on a limited scale at Mankos. This is the training hospital for nurses at Mangaung, near Bloemfontein. This will be extended according to the availability of funds. As regards the equipment at the hospital in Welkom, funds have already been earmarked for this financial year, and an attempt will be made to meet the most urgent needs.

The hon member for Opkoms asked what the position was in respect of the persons who had been poisoned in the Reitz district. All cases of poisoning are handled by the regional director of the Department of National Health and Population Development. The patients were admitted to the Pelonomi, Universitas and military hospitals. This again proves to hon members that when people’s lives are at stake, we do not discriminate on the basis of colour. When lives are at stake we immediately treat patients at the nearest hospital at which facilities are available.

All ambulance staff are already trained or are in the process of being trained at the Free State Ambulance College in Bloemfontein and they are under the control of a professor in general practice. I can tell the hon member that this is one of the finest training colleges for ambulance staff in the entire country. The standard of training there is very good.

As regards the incident the hon member referred to where there was a delay, I should like to get specific particulars from him and the director of hospital services and I will look into the matter. Our approach is always that we would like to give the best services to all people. As regards the ambulance service we realise that these are emergencies and it is essential for that service to be provided in the best way.

The hon member for Standerton referred to the care of hunger strikers in hospitals as reported by the Press. Considering the sensitivity of the matter, I want to recommend that the hon member clear this up with the SA Prisons Service and the Department of National Health and Population Development.

We welcome the hon member’s standpoint that more funds should be voted for health care. We would also appreciate the support of this extended committee when they get the opportunity to talk about the funding of health services in South Africa. I want to point out to the hon member, however, that it must be borne in mind—he probably knows this better than I do, because he is here in Parliament—that there are many other essential services which have to be financed from the Treasury. I have taken cognisance of the hon member’s remarks regarding the replies to questions and his standpoints on this.

The hon member referred to the shortage of nurses and asked what we were doing to attract more White girls to the profession. We are doing the following: Advertisements are placed regularly, at great expense, in periodicals and in school magazines. There is also an extensive system of correspondence with girls in all Free State schools, from std 6 to matric, who show any interest. If a girl intimates that she is interested in becoming a nurse she is contacted and she is spoken to by trained staff of the directorate of the branch and then we ask her whether some of her friends are not also interested. One is approached by three girls and eventually these three girls become five girls and in this way we have an extensive system of correspondence and contact with these girls. We also present information sessions and slide shows at schools during career guidance classes. The University of the Orange Free State’s liaison office visits schools, even outside the Free State, with a view to recruiting student nurses, among others. Student nurses receive in-service training, ie they are remunerated while they are studying, and they are accommodated in good hostels at reasonable tariffs.

The hon members for Schweizer-Reneke and Witbank referred to the Pope’s visit to Lesotho and wanted to know to what extent hospital services were involved. Now I merely want to mention that a modern hospital was not built a Ladybrand or elsewhere for the purpose. At the time of the Pope’s visit we were in the process of upgrading and improving the hospital at Ladybrand, and this had nothing to do with that visit.

During the Pope’s visit we did set up an emergency station at Ladybrand and provided accommodation for the staff manning the station in caravans. Now I want to tell the committee that bearing in mind the numbers expected to go there, the flow of traffic and the possibility of accidents, it would have been unwise and irresponsible of us if we had not taken such precautions.

The hon member for Witbank referred to the obsolescence of equipment. My reply to the hon member is that we have problems in this regard from time to time, but never to such an extent that the standards of patient care have been lowered. During the course of this year we will purchase new equipment again and replace worn equipment. The hon member appreciates the good work done by Oranjejag and I want to thank him for this.

The hon member for Sasolburg referred at the end of his speech to hiking trails and I took cognisance of the fact that the hiking trails in the OFS do not appear in the guide for national hiking trails. We will do the necessary in this regard. He also said that there were too few of these facilities, particularly in respect of larger towns and cities. He requested that the provincial administration give more attention to this. As regards the province’s reserves, we will give the necessary attention to this. There is a growing need for hiking trails, but as regards local authorities I shall ask my colleague who deals with this to encourage them to establish those facilities.

Mr Chairman, before I begin I must first apologise to the hon the Administrator and the Committee because I shall have to leave as soon as I have finished here. Unfortunately we have discussions with the hon the Minister which should have started at 12 o’clock, and circumstances oblige me to complete my speech before I can go. I hope the hon the Administrator and everyone who is present here today will excuse me. I do not want to be disrespectful towards the Committee. Nor do I want to give the impression that I am running away from my problems, because a Meyer does not run away—whether he is a White Meyer or a Coloured Meyer, he does not run away! [Interjections.]

The hon the Minister is protecting you!

No, not at all.

I want to start on my speech. The speeches are coming to an end and now we are getting the answers, but I feel the time has come for us to be frank.

First I want to say that I am the product of a home industry. My grandfather was a Jew and my grandmother was a Matabele. Now hon members can imagine where the home industry comes from! I am what they call home-made! [Interjections.]

I want to go further and reply to the hon member for Losberg who spoke here about group areas.

Order! The hon member for Losberg?

Wait a moment, I am probably mistaken. I beg your pardon, Sir. An hon member spoke here about the group areas …

Parys.

I beg your pardon. The hon member for Parys spoke here about group areas, and I want to tell him that I have a great deal of respect for every person, whether he is White or non-White, but the LP’s policy is out-and-out that the Group Areas Act must go. Whether they want to listen to us or not, we do not want an Untag force in South Africa. If hon members continue with this kind of thing, they must remember that they will not be able to rely on the support of any non-White when this country of ours is gripped by conflict.

I come from the Coloured Council. I served two terms on the Coloured Representative Council, and I did not start serving my people only when I came to Parliament, after the election in 1984. I have served them since 1969. I am what they call an old-timer. I therefore want to tell hon members that it has always been the point of departure of every non-White that apartheid is unjust, that group areas are unjust and that they would have to go if we wanted to maintain the status quo or wanted to put our people back on their feet.

At the same time I want to tell the hon MEC Mr Henney, who spoke here, that I feel he is still a young man, that he has a great career ahead of him and that we should put him on the right track when he seems to be losing his way. I want to tell him that he must never again, in a speech, say that his own people “panelbeat” each other. It might have been intended for the Whites sitting here, but it did not impress me. I want to tell him this so that he is aware of it. It hurt me very deeply. He should not follow that course. One simply does not do this kind of thing.

I want to go further. I want to tell hon members that every member of the Labour Party is committed …

He was just making a joke!

Yes, but one should make jokes at the right time and place. I also make jokes.

One should not be so sensitive.

It is not being sensitive. It is being sensitive in the case of the hon member for Bloemfontein North, but not in my case. He is not sitting where I am sitting. He must come and sit where I am sitting—then he would see what I see. I want to carry on. This is an affront to my human dignity.

Then I want to tell hon members the following about the current system within which we are operating today. We are here because we have no choice other than to be here. We are here to get the best possible deal for our people. Although our party’s policy is strongly opposed to group areas, I want to add that we are sometimes forced by circumstances to talk about group areas, because as far as we are concerned the people come first. Those voters who have put us here have the final say. They can put us here and they can remove us from office. This applies to every member of the Labour Party who holds a position—whether in Parliament or in the provincial administration or wherever. We can remove him just as easily as we put him there.

I want to go further. The existing system provides that every group should deal with its own affairs. I am not at all happy with this own affairs set-up. Own affairs can become a problem when we know we do not want to give somebody something. We vote and say it is own affairs and we therefore have nothing to do with it. The other people must simply sort it out for themselves.

My party and I believe in one government and one House, and as surely as William Meyer is standing here today, we are going to sit together—not in three separate Houses, because that is duplication, and duplication costs this country money.

It is triplication!

It is triplication, and I do not know what one calls the fourth one, but be that as it may, in the long run we shall have to extend the hand of friendship to one another or face one another in the trenches, as I said yesterday. Hon members know what it would mean if it came to that. We do not want to do that. It is not an idea we want to entertain.

It must be remembered that the White population has gained experience over many years. My hon friend said here that only 20% of the revenue in the Free State was borne by we know who. I want to tell him that the people who work in the mines, for example, automatically pay tax because the people for whom they work pay tax.

As long as we are in the Labour Party we will not give an inch until we know that the Group Areas Act has been utterly and completely abolished. We are here on behalf of our people. We are here to have our say. Perhaps we do not have the experience our White brothers have, but if we are not there the Whites will not be there either. South Africa would go down without the Coloureds, whether hon members want to admit it or not.

I want the CP to take note of the fact that their policy of partition will mean an Untag force in South Africa. As I said, this is the last thing we want. The White population has years of experience of state administration, but we have only just begun to participate. They must now give us a chance to prove ourselves. Up to now I have been completely satisfied with the way in which my people have acquitted themselves of their tasks under difficult circumstances.

When it comes to the development of towns, why must separate towns be developed? Why must the best parts always be allocated to the Whites? Why must there be an own affairs museum? As far as I am concerned it is a big farce. I do not believe my party is aware of this. We shall have to examine this matter, because an own affairs museum is a farce. I have already said this and I shall say it again. The LP believes in powersharing, but power-sharing must take place on a fair basis. We do not intend to sell our people down the river. We do not intend to see our people come off second best, because then we would not be worth our salt and should rather go back to our voters and say: We are sorry—we tried, but we cannot make the grade. I want hon members to know that this situation we find ourselves in today, one of the duplication of Houses, powers and services, is costing this country untold millions of rand. We cannot afford this. The sooner we get the chance to rid ourselves of this the better.

Yesterday reference was made here to holiday resorts such as the Philip Sanders holiday resort, for which I am grateful. But I heard a great deal being said about tourists, and I want to ask all the hon members who spoke about tourists yesterday and today whether, when they talk about tourists, they mean only White tourists. If a non-White tourist were to go to a holiday resort where there were mainly Whites, would he be allowed in or would he be told, as many of us are told: We are sorry, we cannot allow you in here. I am sorry, but I have a problem with the holiday resort issue, because my party and I believe everything should be open to all races. We are all inhabitants of this country. We all defend the country on the borders. We shall continue to do so, we have done so in the past and we shall do so again if called upon to do so.

The disagreement about local authorities has to do with management committees, and a member of a management committee is not a councillor. A management committee is merely a management committee. Why can the legislation on local authorities not be abolished so that this can be put right, and so that my people can take their rightful place in the councils of the country? Why are we able to sit here together, why are we able to ride in one lift, why are we able to sit together in a restaurant, but when it comes to representing our people, we must hear we are not councillors, but management committee members? This does not work, it cannot work and it will never work. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I do not know whether it is a sign of approaching age, but the older I become, the more value I attach to little tales and stories. I want to begin my reply with two short stories. The one comes from the book The Garden of the Prophet by Khalil Gibran. As the story goes, there was a small town which held a gathering in the town square. When the inhabitants of the town approached the square they found three white doves sitting on the square. The town was situated at the foot of a snow-capped mountain peak. When the people came closer and the doves flew off, someone noticed that one of the three doves had three black dots on one of its wings. The tale goes on to relate that the story that was told in that town three centuries later was that it was three black doves that had flown from the square.

The second story deals with someone who went walking in the Europe of old and walked past three stonecutters, all of whom were doing the same work. The passer-by asked the first one what he was doing and he replied irritably: “Can you not see that I am cutting stone?” The second one said in reply to the same question: “I am earning my daily bread.” The third one replied: “I am helping to build a cathedral to the glory of God.” Three people doing the same work displayed three different approaches with regard to their obligation.

What I wish to draw from this as a point of reference is the fact that we must guard against allowing the negative to dominate over the positive. I want to dwell for a moment on the fact that we are not holding this sitting of the Extended Committee in Bloemfontein but, in fact, here in Cape Town. I think that Bloemfontein and the Free State have been insulted by way of certain verbal and written statements with reference to this situation. I am not referring to hon members of this committee who have referred to it, because those who did refer to it in passing, merely expressed their disappointment that they could not come to visit us, and we have no problem with that. In fact, we appreciate that.

However, in the polemic which has ensued since it became known that this committee was to sit in Cape Town, the impression has been created that Bloemfontein is not considered good enough to accommodate this committee, or that it does not possess the necessary facilities. I am amazed that we always have to look at the negative side and that we do not also give recognition to the positive. The negative side is summed up in a single sentence. No suitable location was available in Bloemfontein for these specific days.

What is the positive side? It is that the city of Bloemfontein has developed into one of the most sought-after congress venues in our country and at this stage there is an international congress in Bloemfontein which is tying up four of the venues. Moreover, there is a congress of some or other women’s society and then there is also a seminar in progress. The positive aspect which we would like to emphasise, is that it is precisely because Bloemfontein has become such a sought-after city as a congress venue that it was not possible for us to accommodate this committee there. At the stage at which these dates were made available to us, those venues which were worthy of accommodating hon members were no longer available, but had already been reserved for other congresses and bodies.

Furthermore, in these discussion which dealt with the fact that we had come to Cape Town, certain statements were also made which in my view should be set to rights. The question was asked, inter alia, as to why we had not met in one of the seminar chambers of the Provincial Administration. Surely our people should take cognisance of the fact that the sitting of the Extended Committee is not a debating society, and neither is it a brainstorming session, but an extension of the Parliament of South Africa. Some people wondered why we had not assembled in the Sand du Plessis Theatre. With all due respect, I really do not think this Extended Committee is a concert or a performance either.

What has also been lost sight of, is the fact that we are sitting here with a committee which consists of seven different political parties, and if one were to add the Provincial Administration, it would come to eight. These are different bodies which may insist on being accommodated in their own groups so that they are at least identifiable by the chairman. Certain demands are made with regard to sound equipment, security measures, office accommodation and telephone and telex facilities. We would have been able to accommodate all this in Bloemfontein if only we had known in time when the sitting of this extended public committee was to take place. I want to conclude with the following—let us also grant recognition to the positive side and confirm today that Bloemfontein and the Free State had to accommodate other organisations and bodies at this stage which had laid claim to our venues before us. By so doing, we must confirm that Bloemfontein is not in a position to accommodate us.

I also wish to mention that we, as the Executive Committee of the Provincial Administration, together with our officials, will do everything in our power to find a worthy venue to accommodate this committee next year. There are a few alternatives. I want to tell members at once that as a responsible administration, we should also consider what the costs involved in this would be. In the one case it is an old building which we would like to restore. The other possibility is that it could be held in one of the buildings of the provincial administration. Hon members may rest assured that we shall make an effort to invite them to be our guests in Bloemfontein next year.

Hon members have referred to the circumstances in SWA-Namibia and have expressed their sympathy with those families that have been bereaved. I wish to associate myself with this. This morning we heard via the media that one of the people who had died was a resident of the Free State. He was Lieutenant Els of Welkom. I should also like, on behalf of my administration, to express our sympathy with this Free State family and to assure them of our prayers for their consolation in their hour of darkness.

Hon members referred appreciatively to the role which the officials in the Free State Provincial Administration are playing. I should like to associate myself with that and I should also like to express my appreciation for the recognition that is being given to the officials of the Free State Provincial Administration. Let us therefore express our appreciation in this committee, through our Director-General, to all the officials of the Free State Provincial Administration, who often have to work under difficult conditions and who render a service of which we as political functionaries are very proud. We also wish to assure the Free State officials that we shall continue to do everything in our power to strive for working conditions and a remuneration package which will do them justice.

In the same breath, I wish to express my appreciation to my colleagues in the Executive Committee. Some of them have referred to the special team spirit which prevails in the Executive Committee. I wish to give hon members the assurance that I could not wish for better conditions than those which I find in my Executive Committee. I also wish to say at once that during the past approximately two and a half years we have had to take approximately 3 000 decisions and that it has not been necessary to vote in a single one of those instances. I am not trying to say that all the members accept everything without further ado. Allow me to quote an example.

Reference has been made to the Group Areas Act. When we are dealing with a decision which has to do with the Group Areas Act, the hon member Mr Henney states his interest as a member of the LP and confirms that both he personally and his party are opposed to this Act. As members of the Executive Committee, however, we have to face the reality that we have to work within the existing laws of this country. It is not within our power to amend or adjust any law. As responsible citizens we act within this framework within which we may operate. What I mean by this is that I have the greatest appreciation and respect for the way in which every member of this Executive Committee remains loyal and true to his population group and party affiliation, whilst their loyalty towards the Free State and the people of the Free State is great enough to enable us to perform our work in a responsible manner.

I also wish to concede at once that the system within which we are working is not yet the final, ultimate or ideal system. It will probably have to undergo further changes in the future. Within the framework of what we have at our disposal, we attempt to render a service to every resident of our province.

I think that one sign which confirms that this system is not yet the ideal one, is the criticism which some of the hon members expressed with regard to the replies to questions which they had asked. By yesterday morning some hon members had still not received their replies. We shall have to investigate ways and means of making this system more streamlined.

I should, however, like to give an explanation of the circumstances. The questions arrived in Bloemfontein up until the afternoon of Thursday, 23 March. We received the last questions at approximately four o’clock that afternoon. The Friday was Good Friday, which was followed by Saturday, Sunday and Easter Monday on the 27th. On Tuesday, the 28th, we were able to dispose of the replies to all the questions. We attempted to have them in the post that evening, but we were a few minutes too late. At eight o’clock the following morning—that was the 29th—they were put in the post.

We are very sorry that the replies did not reach hon members in time. We wish to give hon members the assurance that we shall endeavour, in conjunction with Parliament, to devise a method of getting these replies to hon members more quickly.

Hon members also referred to the absence of an annual report. I wish to say at once that we attempted to make the annual report available on this occasion, but that we were unable to do so. At this stage it is still at the printers. I spoke to the Director-General a short while ago and asked him what the possibility was of our having the annual report available by this time next year. His reply was that they would most definitely have it available in time for the next sitting of the extended public committee, even if they had to work flat out on it. I think that this, too, illustrates the attitude of our officials, who are doing everything in their power to make the workings of this committee as smooth as possible.

The hon members of the Executive Committee attempted to reply as far as possible to all questions which hon members had put to them. I want to say at once that I do not wish to repeat what they said. I may, however, supplement what they said here and there.

I should also like to confirm that we as the Executive Committee have no desire to become involved in political arguments. As politicians hon members have the advantage of caucus information which we do not have at our disposal. We shall therefore leave hon members in peace to fight their battles.

I also wish to mention that, unlike last year, I shall not respond to individual hon members. This is not because I do not wish to afford adequate recognition to hon members, but because one noted certain trends in the discussion. With reference to these trends which one has discerned, I would now like to offer explanations and to invite hon members to liaise with us.

As the provincial administration, we would be the first to admit that those of us within the administration, whether we be political functionaries or officials, are not perfect. We would also be the first to admit that not all the services that are expected of us within the framework of our capabilities, can be rendered to the standard which hon members would perhaps like them to be.

We do not wish to take pleasure in or excuse ourselves by virtue of the fact that we are dealing with certain divisions or directorates that have been transferred to us, with the result that we now have to deal with certain mistakes that were made in the past. We are not interested in the past; we are interested in the future and in the future of our people in the Free State. We also wish to give hon members the assurance that although it may be true that some of the services do not come up to their expectations and that they are deficient, we are doing everything in our power with the means at our disposal to render a worthy service to the residents of the Free State.

It has also become apparent to me from certain speeches that some hon members are still unsure about the responsibility of my administration and the responsibility of own affairs administrations. I also wish to emphasise here that it was not my administration that identified own and general affairs. Own and general affairs are identified in the Schedule to the 1983 Constitution. We are in the process of implementing our policy within the framework of that Act. Hon members have expressed their dissatisfaction with own museums, own libraries and own resorts. However, we are working and acting within the framework of the schedule to the Constitution and hon members will appreciate that we as the Provincial Administration have no choice but to discharge our responsibility within the framework of regulations that have been laid down. That is why we also have a desire, wherever the instruction is that we are to create separate facilities or functions, at least to attempt to keep the quality of that service as good as possible for all the population groups.

I think we must also issue a warning to the effect that we in South Africa must guard against ever allowing the impression to be created that own affairs administrations and general affairs, of which we are the executive authority, are in confrontation with one another. In actual fact, own affairs and general affairs should complement one another. We must guard against separating them by placing them into watertight compartments, because the reality in South Africa is that we must expand our resources. That is why it is also the standpoint of my administration that we should lend our full co-operation to all own affairs administrations and that we should offer to administer certain functions for them, but that we should nevertheless recognise the right of own administrations to determine policy and that whenever we act as an “agent” for own affairs administrations, we should respect the policy of that administration in whose sphere we have to perform certain tasks.

May I tell hon members, however, that if the perception formerly prevailed that there was confrontation between these administrations and provincial government, this has been eradicated. In fact, I think I can say that there has never been confrontation between us in the Free State. I can give hon members the assurance that as the Executive Committee, our relationship with the Ministerial representatives is one of the most cordial relationships one could hope to have. I am now referring to the Ministerial representative of the Administration: House of Assembly, the Ministerial representative of the Administration: House of Representatives—who unfortunately is not a Free Stater, but we hope that a Free Stater will also be appointed in the future—as well as the Ministerial representative of the Administration: House of Delegates—who is from the Transvaal and regards the Free State as his adopted area. For this reason we also want to tell hon members that if they wish to make political contact with us through their own administrations and it is not possible for them to liaise with us personally, they are most welcome to make use of their Ministerial representatives as well in order to conduct discussions with the members of the Provincial Administration. When one looks at certain trends which hon members have mentioned in this debate, there are a few isolated cases which perhaps do not justify a reaction from all our members, but which should be placed on record. Reference was made by hon members inter alia to the visit of the Pope to Lesotho. The impression may exist that as the Provincial Administration, we took certain measures and incurred certain costs or certain expenditure as a result of the Pope’s visit. That is not correct. My administration made preparatory arrangements with regard to two facets.

The first of these was that we structured our traffic department as we would for any other holiday. In other words, we did not transfer people throughout the whole of the Free State; we merely structured our people to keep a watch on certain routes on that particular day. Another facet with regard to which we made preparatory arrangements was health services. The impression has been created that my administration incurred great costs at the town of Ladybrand in upgrading the hospital or in making facilities available at the hospital. This is not correct. To tell the truth, work was in progress at the hospital in Ladybrand at that stage and on the day of the Pope’s visit the entire hospital was not even in operation owing to construction work. Precisely as a result of this, namely that this hospital was not ready to deal with any abnormal conditions, we established a number of first-aid rooms at Ladybrand. These first-aid rooms were established in caravans and these caravans are the property of the Department of Public Works. Some of the officials stay in them when they are doing field work. We merely made use of those caravans to establish first-aid rooms at Ladybrand. According to the Appropriation the impression is created that an amount of, I think it was R364 000, was spent by the administration on the Pope’s visit. What happened here, was that certain local authorities who decided for themselves that they were situated on a route along which most travellers en route to Lesotho would probably travel, established that if the number of two million people—which had been indicated by someone as the expected number of people who would visit Lesotho—were to stream through these towns, they would not possess an adequate infrastructure to accommodate these people. Some of them found, for example, that they would not have enough water connections if each of these people wanted to drink a glass of water. Some of them simply upgraded the standard of the through road in the town in order to accommodate these streams of cars which might pass through.

The end of the story was that of the two million people who were expected to stream across the bridge, approximately 28 000 came. The fact is, however, that no one knew beforehand what the volume of traffic would be or what the burden on the community would be. Some of these local authorities incurred certain costs. Some nine of them incurred costs, namely Ladybrand—which is closest to the border post—Ficksburg, Marquard, Clocolan, Tweespruit, Wepener, Zastron, Excelsior, Fouriesburg, Paul Roux, Senekal, Winburg and Rouxville. After the Pope’s visit had been completed, these local authorities approached us and told us that they had had to incur certain costs because they had had to deal with an unpredictable situation, and that they were not able to recoup those costs from the taxpayers of those small towns.

They applied to our administration for financial assistance in respect of costs which they had incurred. We negotiated with the Treasury, and the standpoint of the Treasury was that if we were unable to render financial assistance to these towns from savings, the Treasury would supply the means with which to do so. We scraped together an amount of R364 000 from savings, and these funds were paid to these smaller local authorities in order to assist them to avoid transferring the burden to the taxpayers of those communities.

One could possibly introduce a little humour here. One man asked me: If the Pope were to arrive in Bloemfontein and he were to meet you, do you have anything you would like to ask him? At that stage things were not going well with the Free State rugby team. I then said jokingly that I should like to have the Pope look in the direction of the Free State stadium. However, we did not have the opportunity to do so. We do not know how the Free State will fare this year with regard to its rugby. However, the cricket field lies just behind the Free State stadium! [Interjections.]

Frequent reference has been made in the speeches to the incident at the Philip Sanders resort. I think hon members have replied adequately to this, but permit me to add the following. I do not think that the crux of the problem with regard to the fighting in any way has a connotation of colour or race. What actually happened here, was that people assaulted one another as a result of alcohol abuse. I want to express my disappointment at the fact that incidents of this nature should have taken place.

With further reference to this, I want to say that we note that alcohol abuse is on the increase at certain of our resorts. I think it is necessary for me to state the future policy of my administration here. We are not going to commit hooliganism of this nature at our resorts as a result of alcohol abuse, even if we have to take drastic steps in so far as admission and the distribution of provisions are concerned. We shall do everything in our power to maintain our resorts at such a level that it will be pleasant for the law-abiding person and the person who is seeking recreation, to come to all our resorts. We cannot allow recreational facilities that have been created for people to be abused in the creation of tension situations.

Reference has been made to regional services councils. I want to say at once that we look forward to the day when regional services councils will be established to provide services to the Free State with newly generated funds, services which we are unable to provide within the framework of our financial means. I do think, however, that we must also issue a word of warning here. One finds that certain bodies and individuals are, to an increasing extent, laying claim to certain services which are to be financed by the regional services councils and which in reality are not the responsibility of the regional services councils. I also wish to suggest that we ensure that the authorities do not place certain obligations upon regional services councils which will absorb the funds which are available, with the result that it will not be possible to utilise them for the purpose for which regional services councils have, in reality, been established. The indication is that we shall establish the new regional services councils in the Free State by July or August at the latest, which will bring the total for our province to four, and these will then cover the entire province.

I wish to express the hope that the members of the regional services councils will have an understanding of the needs of all members of the population, including those of all communities, because I think that where regional services councils have already been put into operation, they have rendered certain services for which the inhabitants of those areas—I am now referring specifically to Bloemarea—have not been able to express their appreciation enough.

Reference has also been made to civil defence and to the flood disaster and the effect of this on the Free State. I should like to take this opportunity to express my sincere gratitude to the Cabinet on behalf of my administration, for the understanding, goodwill and assistance rendered to my province in the wake of the damage which was inflicted last year. Furthermore, I should like to express my appreciation to the individual, the average citizen of South Africa, who contributed to the disaster fund in a wonderful manner. Those of us who worked reasonably closely with those who collected the proceeds of this disaster fund, can say that we sometimes became quite sad when we saw from whom those amounts came, and how they arrived. I think the smallest amount we received was 10 cents, which was sent in by a little Black boy. The largest amount we received was R250 000.

These amounts, whether the 10 cents or the R250 000, meant a tremendous amount to those people who were in need. Let us accordingly also express the Free State’s gratitude and appreciation in this committee towards everyone who showed their goodwill.

We want to concede at once that the campaign with regard to civil defence was not absolutely ideal. The hon MEC Mr Dreyer also referred to this. A crisis of such proportions seldom occurs. Our people do not have experience or practice in that kind of thing. I do think, however, that it would be a good thing to mention to hon members that the Department of National Health and Population Development was in the process of drawing up a manual or a set of guidelines with regard to the actions of civil defence and of all bodies, further to the experience that had been gained in Natal in 1987. This set of guidelines had not yet been completed when the disaster hit us in the Free State. I think that the experience that has been gained in Natal, the Free State and the Northern Cape will combine to assist us in becoming prepared more quickly in order to cater to all needs.

I just want to mention that in so far as contributions such as foodstuffs, blankets and clothing are concerned, we are in a position in which we cannot refuse any donation. Some of these contributions were unfortunately of such a nature that practical and effective use could not be made of them by distributing them among the needy. However, the attitude of the people meant a great deal to us and we wish to say thank you very much for this.

Particular reference has been made, with regard to roads and road development, to the fact that hon members sometimes gain the impression that we do not consider all relevant information in the determination of our priorities. The method which we follow is not a sacred cow which we may never change. We like to follow a proven practical method of determining priorities and of effecting development in accordance with it. However, we do sometimes have problems. May I give hon members an example? Whenever a new mine is developed—in any part of the Free State, but specifically in the goldfields—we as the provincial administration are not warned or consulted timeously. I can understand this. Certain listings on the Stock Exchange would be affected if certain information were released at too early a stage. This results in our sometimes being placed in a situation in which we are confronted overnight with a need for a service by a community, for which we have not been able to plan. We then have to adapt our priorities with a great deal of inconvenience.

A former colleague, Mr Willem Cruywagen of the Transvaal, told me that a 5-year programme had been devised with regard to schools—that was under the former dispensation—but that no provision had been made for a school for Secunda. At the end of those five years, seven schools had to be erected owing to the needs which already existed there. This places us in a tremendously difficult position. Despite this, we attempt to determine our priorities in such a way that they may still be accounted for to the entire community of the Free State.

Reference was also made to liaison. I want to tell hon members at once that liaison with us in the provincial administration will always be welcomed. Accordingly, we should like to invite hon members to liaise with us in this regard whenever they wish or need to do so. The public relations service of the Free State has arose, as a result of the growing awareness of the increasing importance of public relations and communication when the Commission for Administration lent its approval to public relations divisions being established in all departments. The Free State established such a division in June 1986, and appointed a public relations officer. The former language and public relations division subsequently existed only as a language and translation service. The functions of the public relations officer are, inter alia, liaison with the news media by way of the issuing of media statements and news reports on topical matters taking place in the functional fields of the administration, the provision of information further to inquiries from the public or the media, the correction of defective reports and statements, research into and the gathering of basic information for the drawing up and preparation of messages and speeches, co-ordination and liaison functions within the administration by way of a public relations committee, consisting of contact persons from the various branches of the administration, who meet monthly under the chairmanship of the public relations officer, co-ordination of the provincial liaison function with the liaison functions of all other state departments, including the three own affairs administrations and the Bureau for Information, within the Interdepartmental Public Relations Forum, and supervision of the composition of publications. This liaison service has, inter alia, obtained and planned something for us which will shortly be issued, and that is a new tourist map of the Free State.

I think this is yet another first for us in the Free State. This tourist map, which is to be released, will not only indicate the historically famous towns in the Free State, but all the Black towns, together with their specific names, as well as all the Coloured towns. In other words, Bloemfontein will not only be indicated as Bloemfontein but also as Heidedal and Mangaung, because we should also like to grant recognition to the residential areas of our friends from the other population groups.

Reference has been made to privatisation. I want to say at once that we, as the Free State Provincial Administration, have lent our unconditional co-operation to the department of the hon the Minister for Administration and Privatisation in order to identify those services which may be privatised. We must, however, issue a warning that the incorrect concept or understanding of privatisation should not result in some people thinking that privatisation merely means that a service is going to be rendered by someone else and that the provincial administration is still going to pay for it. Our concept of privatisation entails the complete transfer of full responsibility, the creation and operation of the service, as well as the collections. We also wish to tell private entrepreneurs that they are welcome to come and talk to the Free State Provincial Administration about those things which they feel they can do just as well, or better, at the same price, or even more cheaply.

When we consider privatisation, I think we should also look at another facet which will have to receive more and more attention in the Free State and in South Africa as a whole in future, and this is that there will have to be greater co-operation between various local authorities. Owing to the fact that we do not have enough experts in South Africa to undertake local government, I should also like once again to make an appeal from this House to our local authorities that the responsibility for the administration and the operation of local authorities should be shared. Some of our local government bodies render expert help to local authorities. One appreciates this, but more and more expert help will have to be given to our local authorities, because it is only by placing the standard of local government at such a level that one will be proud of it, that a greater regional awareness and regional pride will result in our communities. This is something for which we still have a great and an urgent need in some instances. I shall attempt to finish within a minute.

†Hon members referred to the proclaiming of group areas, and more specifically to the progress achieved in the Free State with the establishment of group areas for the Indians.

Although the administration leaves no stone unturned in order to expedite matters, the power to declare a group area rests with the hon the State President, who acts on the recommendation of the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning as prescribed by section 23 of the Group Areas Act of 1966. The Minister in turn does not submit a recommendation to the State President before he has consulted intensively with interested parties and, after advertising, has had the matter investigated by the Group Areas Board.

The position in the Orange Free State is, however, as follows. In Harrismith a group area for Indians has already been proclaimed and the application for the establishment of the new town has already been finalised. The recommendation of the township board will soon be submitted to the Executive Committee. On the Orange Free State goldfields the investigation by the Group Areas Board has been completed and the proclamation of a group area will soon follow. Thereafter the local authority concerned will submit an application for the establishment of a town. In Bloemfontein the Group Areas Board has already undertaken an investigation, but a report has not yet been released.

*I have already exceeded my time by a minute, but I am going to finish first.

I apologize for the fact that we have not been able to deal with everyone. Hon members are still welcome to contact us personally—either telephonically or in writing. Permit me to close by making two statements. I make the first with some hesitation, because it is a sensitive one, but also an emotional one. I should nevertheless like to have it recorded in Hansard. The hon member Mr Simes, MEC, has indicated to me that he would like to retire from public life at some or other time. We shall pay him the necessary recognition in the Free State. I shall content myself with this one remark. The Free State, the provincial government and I will be the poorer the day Humphrey Simes retires. [Interjections.]

Moreover, I should once again like to close with a quotation. I think it was the German theologist Thieleke who said on one occasion: “Blessed is he who has a home, because he can always come home.” It remains the ideal of my administration to make the Free State a home for its people—one of which they can be proud and to which they will always want to return, a home for all the people of the Free State. [Time expired.]

Order! Before this Extended Committee rises, I wish to make a few general remarks. Firstly, I express my sincere gratitude to the hon the Administrator of the Free State, his MECs, his officials and the secretariat for the wonderful co-operation which they have given us. Secondly, allow me to thank the governing parties in the three Houses for their contribution, as well as the members of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly, the CP, for their co-operation, which naturally facilitated my task. Thirdly, I wish to thank the Whips very much for having been so helpful.

Debate concluded.

The Committee rose at 13h04.

Order! It is with regret that we take note of the events in South West Africa/ Namibia, and I am convinced that I am speaking on behalf of all hon members here when I convey my heartfelt sympathy and condolences to the next-of-kin of those who died.

Mr Chairman, we on this side of the House would also like to associate ourselves with the remarks you have made. It worries one when one thinks of what has happened to ethics when one makes an agreement and it is not kept. We on this side of the House would also like to extend our sincere sympathy to those families which have been bereaved.

Mr Chairman, I made a serious omission yesterday when I thanked various persons concerned with the running of the province. Regretfully, I omitted to thank the ministerial representative, Dr Gerald Hoskin, for the important role he plays, which many people do not seem to realise. Dr Hoskin is well-known in Natal as the former director of education, and a very knowledgeable person in the affairs of Natal. We in Natal are indebted to him for accepting the position of ministerial representative. A more fitting person I cannot think of. May I record this committee’s thanks to Dr Hoskin for fulfilling his task in a most exemplary way, often under very difficult and trying circumstances.

I spoke yesterday of sewage disposal into the sea and asked the hon member of the Executive Committee whether or not he could give us the assurance that if the local community were against such a sewage disposal scheme, it would not be forced on them. I wonder if this would be possible next time the hon the MEC stands up to talk.

May I raise the question of regional services councils. It is not my intention to cross swords with the hon member for Stanger. Suffice to say that I do not agree with the sentiments he expressed in this regard. It is depressing when one thinks that it was Natal which initiated the metropolitan or regional concept of local government, and that as yet we still have no RSC in Natal. One may ask the question why. That being so, may I express the opinion that if and when the RSC-concept is brought into being, the hon the Administrator and his Executive Committee should confine RSC boundaries to communities that have like interests. Here I refer to the Lower South Coast. I am firmly of the opinion that the area under jurisdiction of the Lower South Coast Regional Water Corporation would be an ideal and manageable regional services area. Likewise, the upper coast area, that is Amanzimtoti to Scottburgh, is a such an area. I may add that this proposal has the blessing and the support of the hon the Deputy Minister of Economic Affairs and Technology, my neighbour with whom I had many discussions in this regard.

I have had the misfortune on the one hand, yet the privilege on the other, of learning at first hand all about a former amalgamation issue. Let me say that it was so hot that I got badly singed. Let us show that we can learn from history. May I suggest that we aim for the possible, that is seeing a 100% chance of a successful regional services council coming into being. As a past member of a local authority in the Lower South Coast and someone who has maintained an interest in local authorities, I firmly believe that the Lower South Coast is ready for a regional services council. I must however warn that we are inclined to be an insular community. Yet we all know each other and share our mutual problems. To bring in another community where, with respect, interests are not necessarily the same, in my opinion is courting a potential disruption of what could be a very successful RSC. I therefore respectfully plead with the hon the Administrator to consider the boundaries of the proposed RSCs on the coastal areas very carefully in view of the situation that I have described.

What I am trying to say is that I want to see the Natal Province being more than successful with the ultimate concept of regional services councils. I firmly believe and have the confidence that the hon the Administrator and his team—the Natal team using the Natal way—will achieve the success for which we are all hoping in this regard.

I would like to touch on the subject of false Mayday calls which have occurred recently. I would like to ask the hon the Administrator wholeheartedly to support the call for a drastic increase in the fines for the conviction of a person found guilty of such a false call. We are the only other province to have coastal waters, and time does not permit me to expand on the expense and risk of life to those who answer these calls. In the majority of cases, all rescue workers are volunteers, and I refer here to the NSRI. The existing fines are obviously not a deterrent to the type of individuals who make these calls. Therefore I would respectfully suggest that these fines be increased to a minimum of R30 000 for a conviction, plus the costs of the reaction by the rescue teams involved.

May I then also use this opportunity to express our congratulations to Mrs Beulah Davies, the director of the Natal Anti-Shark Measures Board for her reward, the Order for Meritorious Service, Class 1, Gold, from the hon the State President. As a past member of the Natal Anti-Shark Measures Board, I believe it is an award that is well-deserved, knowing full well what dedication and hard work Mrs Davies has put into that board to make it into the present highly effective, world-renowned and efficient organisation. We congratulate Mrs Davies.

I believe we are being left streets behind by the Cape when it comes to the provision of small craft harbours on our coastline. The Cape is almost in the position of having safe refuge for small craft every 100 kilometers along their coast, while we in Natal have Durban and Richards Bay. There is no doubt in my mind that we on the Lower South Coast need a small craft harbour and I therefore respectfully ask the hon the Administrator whether the province could instigate an investigation into the best possible site for such a harbour on the Lower South Coast. Once the site has been established and identified, I feel sure that there will be enough private interest shown to develop such a harbour on a partnership basis, either with the province or the central Government and private enter prise. I would like the hon MEC to comment in this regard in due course.

I note that in the dossier of questions and replies a certain sum of money has been set aside for further beach development on the coast. I wonder if the hon MEC could give us the assurance that particularly the beach development that has been started in Port Shepstone will be proceeded with. I believe the next allocation of funds that will be needed to complete phase two will be in the region of R6,5 million. I wonder if he could tell us whether this R6,5 million will be spent in the coming year.

Lastly, may I express my thanks, first of all to my colleague, the hon member for Newcastle, who has whipped the debate over the last two days. I know what it is like to be thrown in at the deep end, because it happened to me last year. I want to say to him that I think he has done exceptionally well, and I congratulate him. We also thank the staff of Parliament, Hansard and you, Mr Chairman, most sincerely for the deliberations and the way you handled the meeting over the past two days.

Mr Chairman, as a preamble I would like to quote the ancient Greek philosopher Socrates, who said: “He who has no part in the administration that governs his city, is either a god or a mugwump.” For several decades the White Government of our country has deprived millions of people of colour of their fundamental democratic right of participation in municipal affairs. By not allowing direct representation in local government affairs, the Government has forced, and continues to force, millions of people of colour to be mugwumps.

Having said that, I am indeed greatly surprised at the component of the House of Delegates on this Committee, which supported and accept the draft ordinance concerning devolution of power. I am indeed surprised at that. If that is not accepting fragmentation of powers and duties, I do not know what is.

My concern is with the grassroots of politics. The grassroots of politics is in local government. Indeed, it is in the city and town councils of a country that the actual day-to-day problems of the people are handled. It is in this forum that the problem of roads, housing and sanitation, water supply, employment and small business all have their beginnings.

It is disconcerting to note that in order to implement its ever-encroaching policies of discrimination, the central Government has gradually converted second-tier government into a conduit for the passage of unacceptable legislation, the latest being the proposed ordinance on the devolution of powers to LACs, the intrinsic purpose of which is continued deprivation of direct representation in local government. This is disgraceful.

Mr Chairman, true power-sharing must involve the greatest number of people at the lowest level of government which handles the day-to-day affairs of the community. The LAC system, which was designed some 24 years ago as a short-term structure to give Coloureds and Indians an opportunity to learn about local government affairs, has never worked well. Nonetheless they represent 24 years of apprenticeship. It is high time that the knowledge they have gained is accepted and direct representation granted to these communities with regard to local affairs.

In reply to the debate following his opening address in Parliament on 3 February, the hon Mr Heunis, as Acting State President, said the following:

I would like to emphasize that:

Ironically, contrary to this commitment, the Government, via the provincial administration, is proceeding with the devolution of powers in the local affairs committees ordinance, which ordinance avoids the granting of direct representation to people of colour on the municipal and town councils. I view this Government’s reluctance to give direct representation as patently unjust and untenable.

Again, my concern here is a certain town board—a local authority within my constituency. I can quote that town board, the Gillitts Town Board further down the road. That town board has one landlord elected by 19 landowners as a representative—a representative with observer status—and what is the result? A member of the Executive Committee inspected that area together with me early in 1987. Roads had not been attended to for the last 35 years; nevertheless they collect rates and taxes from those landlords.

In connection with the same town board, there is something seriously wrong. On this dossier Mr Pienaar asked a question in Afrikaans:

He wanted to know how much money was spent. In the reply the second town board on the list is Gillitts, which received R229 802 for the flood disaster. Without any fear of contradiction I can say that somewhere along the line something is seriously wrong here, because up to now that town board has done nothing. All they have done has been to upgrade two culverts …

We cannot hear you.

… and hardtop with gravel about 500 m of road. In comparison, the Development and Services Board, within the area of Cliffdale, upgraded and repaired roads that was far more badly damaged than the Gillitts roads, for an amount of R175 000. They had to fill dongas 6 m in depth for half a kilometre. They had to build two bridges over heights of more than 7 m. All the extensive costs involved, as well as the grading of roads, amounted to a mere R175 000. I would like the administration to go deeper into this matter of the amount of R229 802. Where was it spent? I know for a fact that in my constituency I carried out an inspection after the storms. The White area suffered no damage whatsoever because all their roads are tarred. Whatever damage occurred was in the valleys where Indians are settled. Moreover, quite recently I questioned the town board. Their argument is that they do not have funds. I did not know that this R229 000 had been paid to them. I am serious about this; I would strongly urge the hon the Administrator and his Executive Committee to inquire in depth into this expenditure. There is a particular road on which, up to now—the hon MEC Mr Naidoo knows it very well—children are crossing a stream on a scaffolding board supported by empty 200 litre drums, because the causeway was washed away. Because that road traverses a private property, the town board will not attend to that road.

Mr Chairman, on behalf of the PFP I too would like to extend our sympathy to the families of the people killed in Namibia. This new outbreak of hostilities is obviously a tragedy and we sincerely hope that peace will be restored soon.

There are several issues I want to touch on this morning. The first is an environmental matter concerning the near-shore waters of Natal. I believe there is an urgent need for all bodies involved with research or work on the near-shore waters of Natal to get together in a joint meeting to discuss the many problems that exist in this most important area of our coastal waters. I believe that the Natal Anti-Shark Measures Board, the Natal Parks Board, the National Research Institute for Oceanology and all other bodies including the business world are amongst the groups that should in fact make up such a meeting. The reason why I believe such a meeting should be held is so that these bodies could share their knowledge, research and findings in the particular areas of interest which they have concerned themselves with regard to our near-shore waters.

We do have severe problems on our coastline and pollution is obviously the most important. Other speakers during the course of this debate have spoken at length about pollution. I do not intend to go into it in any great detail, but let me briefly quote one new example of the effects of pollution, namely the effect of pollution on dolphins. We know that the dolphins themselves have become so heavily polluted as a result of the pollution of the seas that female dolphins are virtually feeding their young on pure pollution. We know that the older the female dolphin the more heavily polluted she is. This of course is a severe danger to the future of our dolphin population.

We all accept and know that there is a growing concern about the pollution of our seas and are aware that pollution is exacting its price on our coastline. I say again that many organisations are deeply concerned about what is happening and I believe the time has come for them to liaise closely and to share their expertise and information. For example no one at present, as far as I know, is actually monitoring to what extent food from the sea is polluted. I do believe that I have good cause to say that every group involved with our near-shore waters should in fact liaise closely. As to who would call such a meeting I am not sure, but it might in fact be a good idea for the hon the Administrator himself to make sure that such a meeting is called.

The problem of monitoring pollution on our coastline and in our near-shore waters is a severe one. We have the Natal Parks Board who are desperately short of staff on the coastline. We know that the National Research Institute for Oceanology desperately needs more funding. These are the kind of problems that we are faced with. They are of course logistical problems but I want to congratulate both of these bodies on achieving what they do while having to operate under such severe staff and funding restraints. I also want to say that the Natal Anti-Shark Measures Board deserves praise for its work. We know that it is a body that comes under criticism from time to time with regard to a number of issues, not least of all the number of dolphins caught in their shark nets. I have great faith in the Natal Anti-Shark Measures Board. They are in fact vitally aware of the criticisms and of the dangers that their nets may impose, but I can only be impressed by their constant research into the problem areas. They are the only body that monitors what they take out of the sea. At the end of the day they have played a vitally important role in maintaining the Natal coastline as a premier holiday resort area in the country, so today I would like to pass on my thanks to them.

I want to turn my attention briefly to health services in the province, a topic which has also received much attention during this debate. I want to concentrate in particular on the King Edward VIII Hospital. This hospital is meant to be a referral hospital, but I am afraid it is not really such a hospital. It has become very much an outpatients hospital serving a very large area. There are many outer areas that are happy to send patients to the King Edward VIII Hospital because health services in these areas are not good enough. This in turn places enormous pressure on the King Edward VIII Hospital. We know there are plans to extend and improve the outpatients section of this hospital, but this not in fact the answer to the problem. What is desperately needed is not one large hospital to cope with the needs of the increasing population but a drastic upgrading of health care services in the peripheral areas.

We know that the King Edward VIII Hospital is always running at an occupancy rate of well above 100%. We note again as I said yesterday that Addington, also a teaching hospital, runs at approximately a 60% occupancy rate. It is generally held among staff in teaching hospitals that the ideal occupancy rate in such a hospital should be between 70% and 80% in order for the staff to be involved with sufficient patients without student doctors and nurses being overburdened. The occupancy rate of well above 100% at the King Edward VIII Hospital is obviously unacceptable. Several doctors have told me that the famous Baragwanath letter which caused such a controversy last year contained absolute facts about conditions in that hospital but that in actual fact the situation in the King Edward VIII Hospital is twice as bad as that which existed at Baragwanath.

I go back to what I said earlier that the King Edward VIII Hospital is the major referral hospital in Natal, but the problem arises that 75% of the people who arrive at that hospital arrive by themselves; they are not referred. The situation is totally unbalanced. We must ask ourselves why this in fact happens and again the answer is simply because the number of clinics in the greater Durban area is totally inadequate. There have been instances where doctors at the hospital have had to turn patients away. They cannot cope and this is causing doctors much mental turmoil because of their ethics and code. The King Edward VIII Hospital is being used incorrectly; it is not a referral hospital as it should be simply because the people who use it have no faith in their health services in their particular areas. This is a matter which needs to be addressed by the Provincial Administration. Sadly, yet again I know that we will be told that health services in the outer areas cannot be upgraded because there is no money available. This is of course the direct result—we must accept it and I think the NP itself would accept it—of NP policies over many years which have led this country into the poor economic state in which we find ourselves at present.

The same applies when we talk about equipment in hospitals. The King Edward VIII Hospital is under-equipped. Doctors will tell one that there is a lot of good equipment in this hospital but not enough of it. The high cost of equipment is now prohibitive; we simply cannot afford it. We do not have the money to buy what we need and again this is a reflection on our economy. The fact that we are unable to purchase what we need to provide health services in order to ensure the good health and well-being of all our people in South Africa is a tragedy.

Doctors at the King Edward VIII Hospital are also deeply concerned that they are so overburdened by the number of patients they have to treat that they have no time to practise preventative medicine. Many of them estimate that only 5% of their time is in fact spent on preventive medicine; the rest of their time is spent purely on curative health. There is an urgent need to create the situation where it is in the interest of doctors to keep people healthy and not just to treat them when they are sick. The Government and the Provincial Administration need to address this problem but, sadly—I mean this—the enormous backlog that has built up in the health services of Natal and throughout the country for that matter has created a situation where it will be almost impossible now to catch up and reach the ideal situation where preventive medicine is practised more than curative medicine. That is a sad reflection on the state of affairs.

It is sad that the new academic hospital to be built in Durban will not be completed until the year 2001 or thereabouts. There is extreme concern being expressed as to just how the King Edward VIII Hospital is going to carry on coping over the next 10 years with the growing population in the greater Durban area. This situation’s absolutely critical.

There is one other brief environmental matter I would like to touch on and that is the mangrove swamps in Durban North. These swamps are very much a part of our natural heritage and they were almost destroyed following the floods of 1987 when the important channel which runs through these swamps was blocked. We all know that mangroves need to have the ebb and flow of the tide and that they cannot stand in water—their root systems need to breathe. Unfortunately, as a result of the blocking of the channel, what happened was that the root systems became completely covered in water and many of the trees started to die.

I want to thank the Natal Parks Board again for their interest here. When they were contacted together with Durban City’s health department, all efforts were made to ensure that the creek was cleared. The work was eventually done by Durban City’s health department and I want to thank them as well.

The Natal Parks Board has agreed to ensure that the channel is maintained. I have agreed to raise funds in order to assist the Natal Parks Board because we again come to a shortage of funds. I want to thank those many schools in the Durban area who have already made contributions to the fund that we have started in order to save the mangroves swamps in Durban North.

Mr Chairman, and hon members, I have pleasure in submitting details of Works Directorate’s estimate of expenditure for the financial year ending 31 March 1990.

For the 1989-90 financial year, this directorate has been allocated an amount of R68 697 000 which represents an increase of R3 685 000 or 5,67% above the figure for the 1988-89 financial year. This increase is clearly insufficient to offset the effects of inflation and much attention will need to be given to ensure that the available funds are used in the most cost-effective manner.

The Works Directorate is responsible for the provision as well as the maintenance of accommodation and ancillary requirements for all provincial institutions in Natal on an agency basis for the Natal Education Department which now falls directly under the Administration: House of Assembly. It is essential that the funds allocated for such an important function be used to the best advantage of this administration. Some of the major provisions are: R12 103 200 for salaries; R1 747 500 for the purchase and maintenance of mechanical plant; R5 832 000 for repairs to and maintenance of buildings; R1 843 000 for minor works; R31 934 000 for major works; R254 000 for national monuments and R4 489 000 for the purchase of land and buildings.

The figure of R12 103 200 reflected above for salaries only represents 40% of the total paid to this directorate’s personnel. The balance of 60% is paid by the Administration: House of Assembly on behalf of the Natal Education Department for work done on an agency basis.

Details of some of the major works being undertaken in the 1989-90 financial year are listed hereunder.

Concerning hospitals, the following are a few of the hospital projects for which funds have been allocated during the 1989-90 financial year.

A sum of R4 800 000 has been provided for the continuation of the contract started last year for a new outpatients department, bloodbank and for laboratories at King Edward V111 Hospital. The new facilities are the first phase in the redevelopment of the hospital.

Work will begin on a new paediatric outpatients department at R K Khan Hospital. When completed this will release much needed space in the general outpatients’ department.

To continue the upgrading of the wards at Wentworth Hospital, an amount of R4 240 000 has been provided. The original wards were built during the Second World War and are greatly in need of replacement.

Concerning national monuments, this administration undertakes maintenance and restoration work an national monuments and war graves on behalf of the National Monuments Commission. The most important project during the 1989-90 financial year will be the continuation of the work on the restoration of Rorke’s Drift Battlefield.

An amount of R4 489 000 has been allocated for the purchase of land and buildings. This includes an amount of R1 700 000 for the purchase of Oldham House in Durban to accommodate the ambulance services headquarters and R1 791 000 to enable the Natal Parks Board to purchase land for the extension of various reserves.

Despite staff shortages, rising costs and the need to conserve funds, I can report that satisfactory progress is being made with the provision of new accommodation and the maintenance of existing buildings for the Natal Provincial Administration.

Mr Chairman, it is always a pleasure to follow on the hon MEC Mr Joosub. We listened to his participation with interest.

*I am very glad to see that at least half of the hon members of the CP followed my advice and returned to their constituencies. [Interjections.] I presume the reason why the hon member for Brakpan stayed behind was that he is not going to stand again because the pressure is getting too much for him.

†The hon member Mr Derby-Lewis does not have a constituency to go and look after and he never will. [Interjections.]

I am in a similar position to you.

In the course of this debate, a number of members have referred to the whole question of urbanisation and specifically Black urbanisation and the related problems of inadequate housing, generally poor living conditions and squatting. The hon MEC Mr Miller, in his participation yesterday, acknowledged the seriousness of the situation and I quote:

The tone and content of other speeches on the subject during the debate gave ample proof of the validity of this statement. I would also like to refer to the problem today, as I did during the corresponding debate here last year.

In that debate I asked that the problem be approached in its totality with vigour and determination. I posed the question whether the Natal Provincial Administration did in fact have the tools to do that job. I followed up my speech at that time with a letter on the subject to the hon Administrator. His reply to me, and remarks made by the hon MEC Mr Muller earlier in this debate, make one thing abundantly clear to me and that is that apart from anything else, there appears to be a structural problem in respect of the administrative handling of this whole situation. There is much consultation, discussion, liaison, contact, agonising etc but apparently very little action.

The hon MEC even has to admit that the Provincial Administration is only a peripheral player, as he said, in this whole situation.

This should not be so. The Natal Provincial Administration should surely be a major if not the major player in all the efforts to deal with this massive problem. The fragmentation which characterises the handling of the situation can surely not be allowed to continue indefinitely. There is an obvious need for co-ordinated and concerted action now.

Much has been said about the need for funding but at the same time we have heard that the massive funds already made available to the Natal-KwaZulu Planning Council have not in fact been deployed effectively on the ground, and we have heard that not one plot has become available for squatters as a result of this amount.

The context in which all this takes place is one of massive urbanisation with all the good and bad implications of such urbanisation. About half the total population of greater Durban already live in non-formal settlements. By the year 2000, projections are that 60% of all Durbanites will in fact be what one could call shack people, and 84% of them will be Blacks. The conditions in shacklands are in many cases unthinkable if judged by the standards of every member of this House. There is no water, no electricity, no sewerage and no health or educational facilities. Even so, Black standards of living in the Durban Functional Region in these conditions are still 30% higher than in rural KwaZulu. Incidentally, the birth rate is significantly lower in these urban areas. The clear implication is therefore that this urban migration cannot be stopped and it must rather be dealt with effectively before it drags us all down.

The burning issue has been described as one of massive imbalances—imbalances between Black, White, Indian and Coloured in terms of land availability; imbalances in respect of socioeconomic circumstances, access to opportunities and commuting times and distances.

These imbalances must be addressed on a number of levels. What is required at this point is a strategic approach, with the focus on a few top priorities. It is thus an overall strategy or plan of action. The existing know-how, infrastructure and economic energy of the Durban Functional Region must be channelled to correct this imbalance and lift the Third World component out of its poverty. For this to happen, however, some sort of urbanisation super committee in this province, not in Pretoria or Cape Town, will have to be created and given the powers to get things moving.

I would like to pose the question whether the time has not come for the Joint Executive Authority of Natal and KwaZulu also to play a greater role in this whole exercise because of the tremendous effect of all decisions taken on KwaZulu. Time is running out and we can no longer afford to dilly-dally in our handling of this problem. I appeal to the hon Administrator and his colleagues to take the lead in trying to break out of this administrative log-jam or maze, as it has been referred to, and to use every ounce of influence they possess to achieve the creation of such a super body in the knowledge that we in this Committee will fully support all their efforts.

Mr Chairman, I should just like to say that there are a few themes to which I have to give particular attention since they will be in reply to points mentioned in the debate. On this occasion I shall mainly reply to matters regarding hospitals. Later on I shall reply to matters pertaining to roads and the Joint Executive Authority.

†Allow me to react briefly to the last remark made by the hon member for Umhlanga in connection with the task which he foresees of the Joint Executive Authority giving attention to the question of housing and the availability of land, and dealing with influx-related squatter or informal development problems in the Durban area. This matter has already been addressed by the Joint Executive Authority. We have in fact arranged to have representation on the project group of the Natal-KwaZulu Planning Council. Furthermore there is a standing committee of the Joint Executive Authority appointed specifically to become involved in addressing this question and acting especially as a pro-active agent to see to it that more attention is expeditiously being given to this matter. We are totally committed to becoming involved in ensuring that this matter is effectively addressed.

I would like to give a brief and general overview of the hospital situation. In doing so I shall also be dealing with some of the matters which were raised just now by the hon member for Durban North relating to the King Edward Hospital and the planning for the area especially towards the north of Durban.

The position with our present budget is that if we take the capital works appearing under Vote 4 into consideration, almost R800 million of this year’s budget is to be spent on hospitals and other capital projects relating to hospitals. This is a fraction of a percentage short of 50% of the total Natal provincial budget.

What is not reflected in the Budget is the expenditure and the work involved therewith relating to the administration of hospitals which have become our responsibility in terms of an agency agreement with the Department of Development Aid. Our Administration has also been charged with the handling of salary payments relating to the doctors who work in the KwaZulu hospitals and who have been seconded from the Department of Development Aid to KwaZulu hospitals. These payments are made by us and recovered from the respective departments and are consequently not shown directly in our budget.

Our staff is involved in handling this administratively. That is one of the contributory factors to the somewhat top-heavy burden of head office administration costs in relation to the actual hospital expenditure which appears in our budget.

*There is regular consultation between the four members from the four provinces of the Executive Committee for Hospital Services and the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development. There we ensure proper co-ordination and co-operation among our various hospital services. Each of the four provinces is experiencing the problem that they receive inadequate funds to provide for the services which we consider to be basic and necessary.

During our latest discussions a senior Treasury official provided us with background information on the norms which are applied when the macrobudget allocations are determined.

†Considering the financial constraints under which South Africa has to provide essential services such as education, housing and employment creation, etc to the total community, it has become more important than ever to budget according to a total and co-ordinated plan. This has, of necessity, had an impact on the amount of available funds on a macroplan for certain other requirements.

To illustrate the perspective with which we have to contend, I wish to quote some of the cost structure statistics which are making it increasingly difficult to finance the demands on curative health services. I shall quote some figures of the cost per patient day and the comparative income per patient day from the respective hospitals.

According to our latest statistics the cost per patient-day at the King Edward VII Hospital is R154. In other words, for each patient for each day it costs the administration R154. The income which we receive per patient-day is R4,98, which is only a 3,24% recovery cost. The total cost of the hospital is just over R117 million.

The hon member for Durban North referred to the fact that the King Edward VII Hospital is no longer basically a referral hospital, but has become an outpatient hospital. To illustrate the correctness of his statement, I want to refer to the relevant statistics. The outpatient head count in nine months, from April 1988 to January 1989, was just under 600 000. The average bed occupancy is not over 100% but is in fact 94%, which is an average for every day of the year—365 days. That means that there are peak and valley periods and the peak periods are sometimes considerably in excess of 100%.

I accept that the prevailing conditions at the hospital, as far as services and equipment are concerned, are relatively good and of a high standard. The building does not come up to standard. However, there are 2 000 beds and there is a nursing establishment of 2 008, which means that on average we have one nurse per bed in the hospital, which is a good ratio. The medical establishment, excluding the joint medical establishment with the university, which includes all the university staff who are jointly appointed, is 290. This gives us a ratio of one doctor per seven beds. Over and above that we have those who are still attached to the joint medical establishment. This is basically also a good ratio.

To give some other hospitals as a matter of comparison, Addington hospital costs R181 per patient-day as against an average income of R14,29, a 7,86% cost recovery. Northdale costs R138 per patient-day and our income is just over R12 per patient-day, just over 8% in cost recovery. Wentworth is the most expensive hospital that we are running. It is a referral hospital, a specialist hospital. In Wentworth the cost per patient-day is R474. We only recover just under R16 per patient day. The cost recovery, now that it is multi-racial, is 3,36%. The cost in Greys, which is in Pietermaritzburg, is R265 per patient-day, but it has a cost recovery of R71 per patient-day, or 26,6%, which is the highest of these bigger hospitals.

The indications which we have received from the Treasury are that in the long term our budget allocation for hospital services, based on the officially determined macro-priority, is likely to show a negative growth rate of minus 0,4% per annum in real terms. In plain English that means that after allowing for inflation our allocation each year can be expected to be less than the previous year.

Against this we are faced with the fact that there is a continuing daily influx of some 400 families to the informal settlement of greater Durban, primarily to the north of Durban. There are already in excess of 1,5 million people resident in informal housing. This does not mean that they are all squatters, it merely means that they are not in formal housing. However, this figure is added to by 400 families per day. This creates an ever increasing pressure on the Natal and KwaZulu hospitals departments to provide for additional comprehensive hospital facilities to the north of Durban. However, to try to remain within our officially determined hospitals budget allocation, our hospitals department has already worked out a study. It has planned numerous hospitals for the north of Durban, mainly in the greater Durban metropolitan area and this is being discussed with the KwaZulu health department through the Joint Executive Authority and it has already been referred to the Department of National Health and Population Development, which has to approve the norms for the provision of these facilities.

We are also working on the basis of providing a greater number of community health centres in the peripheral areas. As mentioned by the hon member for Durban North, this is already our plan, but then we have to provide for this when funds are made available. This means not only capital funds to provide the facilities; they have to be manned and staffed, and it is calculated that the staffing costs each year are approximately 35% to 50% of the capital expenditure involved. Consequently it is a considerable additional expenditure. However, we are unfortunately in the position that we have to convince the Department of National Health that the statistics provided in the 1985 census are totally out of date and should be revised. We hope that they will accept our revised figures as far as that is available.

It is futile merely always to continue to say we need more funds. There is something that can and should be done about it. One method of obtaining more funds, so as to meet the additional demands on our hospital services and development over and above our normal allocation from Treasury, would be to obtain greater income by way of hospital fees. It is, however, unlikely that we could obtain higher fees from the truly indigent. There are also limits to the increase in tariffs on that section of the patients who already pay the bulk of our hospitals’ income. We must therefore examine the situation to see if there are other alternatives.

It has become clear that the percentage of non-White patients, especially Blacks, who are members of medical aid or medical assistance schemes, is totally out of proportion in relation to those who are in normal, regular employment. I am strongly in favour of greater employment-related participation in medical aid membership for all those who are in regular employment, and that includes their bona fide dependants. An analysis of Black patients treated at our hospitals indicates that less than 2% of them are in fact members of medical aid schemes. In fact, it is less than 1% in most places, whereas it can safely be assumed that at least 50% of the adult Black population who are in the economically active age group are most probably in regular employment.

I have raised this matter in discussion with the Executive Committee and it has been agreed to refer the matter to the Commission for Administration in so far as it relates to State employees. I have raised it officially on several occasions with the Minister of National Health and Population Development, and have also submitted a detailed motivation to the Minister responsible for the Commission for Administration so that, in so far as State employees are concerned, pro-active steps can be taken to ensure that the total population in regular employment, not only the more affluent, are placed on medical aid membership benefits.

The matter, however, also needs to be put to the private sector. There is a corporate social responsibility that rests on the private sector to ensure that those workers who contribute to the economic well-being of their undertaking should be provided with effective social facilities so that they are not also dependent on charity. Social services go beyond housing and pension. They also include medical aid for the workers and their dependants.

Regrettably the present situation is that the vast majority of employers either neglect or by deliberate intent misuse the facility of free medical services that are being provided by the provincial hospital services. If this matter continues to be ignored, we do so at our peril. It will be the surest way towards the economic ruin of South Africa. All South Africa will be left with no alternative except to allow the quality of hospital services to deteriorate to unacceptable standards.

The Third World component of the total population mix is daily becoming bigger, placing a bigger cost burden on the shrinking percentage of South African income tax payers. The rapid influx from the rural to the urban or metropolitan complexes will result in a proportionately greater need for the provision of so-called sophisticated hospital services. If the problem escalates, the need becomes a political demand. I would like to point out that it has become fashionable for business leaders to call on the Government to expedite reform.

Reform, however, is not limited to political reform. Social and economic reform is an essential ingredient for balanced political reform. I would therefore call on the private sector to demonstrate their commitment to reform by becoming actively involved in a systematic program of corporate social responsibility.

I would like to deal with some matters specifically raised by hon members. Allow me first to refer to the matter dealt with by the hon member for Umhlanga. He referred to the increasing problem of handling hazardous chemicals. We had a seminar in Pinetown which was attended by representatives of various disciplines all over Natal and a large contingent from the Transvaal. Some 200 people attended this seminar to address this specific problem. It involves not only the control as far as transporters are concerned, but also a total management programme that has to be given attention.

At this seminar that was held in Pinetown, it was agreed that an ongoing multi-disciplinary committee should be formed, consisting of the chief of our ambulance services, the fire services, the traffic control authorities from local authorities and the NPA, the Road Safety Council, the Roads Department, the private sector—including representatives from private carriers and manufacturers—the SA Police, the Defence Force, the Mountain Rescue Club and the National Sea Rescue Institute to prepare a proper programme of how to deal with these matters.

The aim of the committee is to involve all bodies—private and public—to establish a model for Natal, for use not only in Natal, but nationally. I believe in this respect Natal is again taking the initiative and the lead. As was mentioned yesterday by the hon member for Roodepoort, in so many instances Natal is not used experimentally, but is taking a lead in various matters that need urgent attention.

I believe that it is important that we should license carriers. If hazardous chemicals are transported on the public roads, it is insufficient merely to have restrictions in the area of manufacturing. The way of handling these should also be extended from point to point, including the transport thereof. Transport carriers that want to carry hazardous chemicals should be licensed depending on the degree of hazard involved. The drivers of such vehicles should also have to qualify in terms of specific safety training and safety driving methods. We should involve all disciplines in having greater safety on South African roads.

Various references have been made which amount to ways of providing additional facilities or opening up our hospitals to all communities. First of all, let me say that in all emergency cases and in all cases of specialist treatment, all our hospitals are at all times available to everybody. However, we have to deal with this in such a way that there is no negative reaction from communities involved. I know there are those who say that we are obsessed with race and group, but there are others who are obsessed with sloganeering on racism. If we should not be obsessed with race or group identity, we should also not be obsessed with sloganeering on racism. One should realise that there are certain facts that are given in this country. Let us therefore proceed in such a way that we provide equitable hospital facilities for all communities in terms of needs and patterns that are not rigid and that are changing, but that are acceptable to the multiethnic community that we have in South Africa.

Whatever we do, we must provide services in such a way that we eliminate waste. We must eliminate waste by not having unnecessary duplication. At all times all our officials should show respect to all patients. No disrespect should be shown to any patient at any time. If there are matters that they feel should be referred to our hospitals, this should be done with due respect and with due courtesy to all involved.

Our ambulance service is open to all. The staff is totally multiracial and the service is available to all people involved. I believe that one must distinguish between reasonable requests and requests that go beyond reason, depending on circumstances. Let me give a few examples. The previous Executive Committee provided a 40 bed ward specifically for full fee-paying non-White patients at the Estcourt Hospital. However, the money was not available to staff this ward. At the moment it is still not being used for the purpose for which it was intended. We have now made available wards that will be available for private fee-paying non-White patients in the section of the hospital that is on the other side of the road. Up to now this has been used mainly by White patients. The theatre facilities will be available according to need.

In Empangeni a hospital which was previously for Whites only has been made available for all population groups. One whole floor of the hospital was made available within the staff structure that we have at the moment. This is being done. In Port Shepstone there has been a lot of political pressure by a body that is mainly interested in political pressurising than in actual health services. They have clamoured for the fifth floor of the hospital to be opened because it is at present not being used as an in-patient hospital. We do not have the staff to commission that fifth floor on a full-time basis. We are using it for day patients. We have already approved extensions to the hospital to the extent of over R5 million and the facilities, including private patient facilities for non-White patients, will be improved considerably. This includes accommodation facilities for nurses.

Reference has been made to the situation in the Pietermaritzburg area with Northdale, Edendale and Grange. It so happens that Northdale is scheduled by a specific request from the House of Delegates to become an own affairs hospital for the House of Delegates. Grange is for the House of Assembly. Edendale is not in officially declared KwaZulu, but it is run by KwaZulu. These are issues which must not just be handled lightly. I do not think that KwaZulu would react kindly if they were requested to hand the Edendale Hospital over to the Natal Provincial Administration. However, through the Joint Executive Authority there is sufficient co-ordination and liaison between the respective hospital administrations to enable us to handle this in an effective way.

I would like to point out that even with the own affairs involvement, the particular formula that has been applied, is such that own affairs become involved in the decision taking as to who should be the medical superintendent, the chief matron, the secretary, the administrative secretary and the administrative board relating to that hospital. Insofar as the day to day running and administration is concerned, it is done totally on an agency basis by the provincial administration. With the devolution of hospitals from the Department of National Health to the provincial administrations, I believe that today we have less fragmentation than we had four years ago. In fact, the position has become considerably better, except that we still have difficulties in the various accounting systems which apply to these various hospitals. However, we are attending to this.

There are a few specific matters I wish to refer to. The hon member for Umzinto raised the red dot incident, which happened at a hospital in northern Natal. A private doctor was involved and we do not approve of this type of intolerance. This is not acceptable to our administration. The matter was immediately attended to and was satisfactorily resolved.

The hon the Deputy Minister of Local Government and Agriculture in the House of Delegates raised the question with regard to Phoenix. The Phoenix question has a long history. Unfortunately my time is limited now and I cannot deal with the matter extensively. However, I will let the hon the Deputy Minister have the details in writing.

Various matters were raised in connection with Cato Manor. The Executive Committee is very anxious that the Cato Manor Hospital be a teaching hospital. The Executive Committee is extremely anxious to expedite the construction, completion and the commissioning of this academic teaching hospital, which will have 1 025 beds.

Wentworth, as part of the teaching component, will continue to have 150 beds and Addington Hospital 25 beds. This hospital will only be a referral hospital. King Edward VIII Hospital, which was not originally intended as a teaching hospital, but became that later, is now lacking as far as its standard is concerned. The long-term replanning, as determined by our own hospital staff and by the norms committee of the Department of National Health, specifies that it should be developed to a more modern hospital with 800 beds.

We must provide for other beds in the north of Durban. This should be done together with the Prince Msheweni Hospital, which at the moment has 700 beds that were commissioned. It is planned to have 1 600 beds. The Cato Manor Hospital and the additional hospitals which we planned to the north of Durban, if given the means to develop them, will provide a far better and more comprehensive health service. Our community health clinics are to a large extent, as far as is practically possible, to be staffed and run by senior, qualified nurses rather than only by doctors. In this way we can deal with many routine matters at a lower cost than at the moment without losing effectiveness and efficiency in any way.

I want to refer briefly to the tariff structure. We have increased the tariff as of 1 April, but for the lowest category, comprising the indigent patient, the tariff has not been increased. It was R2 last year and it remains R2 this year. We have five income categories. The highest income category comprises married persons who receive salaries of more than R1 800 per annum. They pay the full tariff. However, the full tariff is based on the medical aid tariffs as they applied last year. In other words, we are always a year behind in the actual tariffs that are applicable. In fact, we subsidise provincial hospitals and medical aid schemes because we would be entitled to charge this year’s medical aid tariffs and get the full payment. However, our decision has been based on last year’s tariffs as far as that is concerned.

I would like to mention one aspect that has come to our attention. I believe that there is a considerable amount of revenue, to which we are entitled, which we are losing because when patients are admitted and they have to declare their income, they do not declare the correct figure. In an instance in a control sample we did last year, we found that the lie factor of patients admitted exceeded 75%. This is a question of community involvement. They are in fact robbing the taxpayer and the province of funds sorely needed to provide for improved health facilities.

I apologise, I might have said earlier R1 800 per annum with regard to hospital tariffs. In fact, the highest income category comprises those married people who earn in excess of R1 800 per month or single persons earning a salary in excess of R900.

I see the hon the Deputy Minister of Local Government and Agriculture is not here. I will deal with the matter he referred to in writing. The hon member for Durban Central is not here, and I will deal with the question he raised in writing.

I now wish to refer to the question relating to the salaries of nurses raised by the hon member for Durban Point. The salaries of nurses was addressed by the Commission for Administration. The problem was highlighted and they received additional adjustments towards the end of 1987. This is done on a rotation basis every three years. Inputs have already been made to review the salary structure of nurses. It was stated that the nurses’ training course was too long, but this is so specifically at the request of the South African Nursing Council, who clamoured to have a higher qualification and professional status for nurses. I accept that there is a substantial number of nurses who do not necessarily want to have those higher qualifications which could be catered for. It is also true that the effect of the higher qualification course has resulted in a reduced number of applicants for the nursing profession.

The hon the Deputy Minister also addressed the question of patients from outside Natal. In Natal we are dealing with a substantial number of patients from the Transkei, especially in Matatiele, Kokstad, Harding and Port Shepstone. We have already taken up the matter with the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs, who is involved in the financial negotiations with Transkei. We cannot do this directly—we have to do it via the Minister of Foreign Affairs and he is already involved in negotiations with Transkei. KwaZulu get their own funds, but in many hospitals in Eshowe over 90% of the patients dealt with are basically the responsibility of KwaZulu. In the King Edward VIII Hospital about 68% of the patients are basically the responsibility of KwaZulu. However, because we work on a co-ordinated basis, we must try to find some method of providing the service and receiving the correct funding for it.

Mr Chairman, at this late stage of the debate on the budget of the province, it might be assumed that just about everything that could have been said has been said. However, such a vast array of issues has been raised by people of different political persuasions that the LP view on some of these issues may just not be clear. I shall endeavour to rectify this situation.

Firstly let me identify with what has been said about the events in Namibia. The bloodshed in this region is regrettable and we hope that matters in this region will be resolved without further loss of life or limb.

The hon the Administrator stated yesterday that the tricameral parliamentary system has been an excellent bridging mechanism. We share this view. The LP, however, is not enamoured of this tricameral system. South Africa deserves a just constitutional system which is acceptable to all South Africans. We believe that the sooner the tricameral system is replaced by such a system, the better. It is true that it is always easier to theorise about things, and in our case, to speedily debate such matters once a year. It is to actually implement decisions in the practical situation that raises problems. We do understand that. However, I must point out that some hon members of Parliament are not allowed by their constituents to be mere speechmakers. A hopelessly inadequate local government system has kept us in the back of the queue for housing, also in terms of the provision of educational facilities, social services and every other field of human interest for such a long time that it brings old Joe Soap directly to the member of Parliament in some cases.

That member of Parliament has to account for whatever is not done for Joe Soap. Joe Soap does not come to the member of Parliament to thank him on behalf of members of the Executive Committee for a deed well done. He comes only to question what has not been done for him or an injustice that has been perpetrated against him. The member of Parliament, that old speechmaker, has to give replies—satisfactory replies.

I would like to say that not all politically-aligned people and politicians are interested only in talking politics. Some of us have to work as well.

This brings me to refer briefly to what the hon MEC Mr Volker said earlier about Port Shepstone hospital in particular. I would like to declare immediately that my interest in the Port Shepstone hospital and incidents concerning that hospital reported to me by people in Port Shepstone in my constituency and specifically in Merlewood is based purely and simply on meeting requests and appeals from my constituents who were in need. I was approached not by politicians or politically interested or motivated people but by people who actually suffered injustice at that hospital. As their representative, I make no apology for raising in this chamber yesterday the matter of the physical situation and the physical reality at that hospital.

I should hate to have to conclude that a few provincial officials—I must stress that I refer to perhaps only a scarce few—have simply not learned that Parliament is not just the House of Assembly and that all members of Parliament are no longer Whites. I must repeat that those I am referring to are only a scarce few, perhaps one or two, and I will come now to an incident where I must conclude that that is the case.

The hon MEC Mr Peter Miller referred to the whole matter of Ifafa Beach and said that he understood why I was interested in problems there. Let me say immediately that since 7 March 1981, when the NP Government proclaimed Ifafa Beach a Coloured group area, there has been pressure on an ongoing basis for the upgrading of the area. The area had been neglected by the previous local ratepayers because they knew the writing was on the wall. Roads were not attended to and the place was left simply to degenerate. [Interjections.] I am grateful if what the hon member says is true. Certainly it is the case with certain other areas, but I am not simply raising a hypothetical argument. I am talking from experience.

Since that area was actually proclaimed and occupied, there has been a hard-fought battle to have some sort of services delivered in the area. The small and slowly growing community there had to foot the bill for most of the services which had to be delivered. Eight years have passed, and now that a larger community is present there, expectations have naturally been raised by the announcements of so much money allocated over the course of time. People like to announce that amounts of money are going to be spent on some area or other because it makes nice news and good reading, but such announcements have actually had a detrimental effect on people’s opinions about the area.

The people living there see that so many hundreds of thousands of rands have been spent and want to see what that money has been used for. They go to see the tidal pool, for instance, and are told that the reason why it cannot be made to work properly is something to do with the weather, the climate, the shifting currents of the sea, flood damage and so on.

The fact is that poor planning and a waste of money on too much consultation are the cause of so much anger in the area. Perhaps there have been too much planning, too many experts called in and too little work done in the area. If one compares it with the old tidal pool, which was built something like 20 years ago by ordinary local residents without the advice of experts, the thing actually worked. More than half of the pool had water in it. Now, after the expenditure of thousands on expert opinion—even the CSIR was consulted—a double-sized tidal pool exists containing half as much water as the previous tidal pool.

I am waiting for one of the officials, or perhaps the hon MEC, to come and point out to the residents there where exactly the tidal pool which was built for children is, because what we see there is simply a board indicating that this is the tidal pool for kiddies. [Interjections.] On 22 December I pleaded with the officials to remove that board because the man who is my opponent in parliamentary elections is noted for his use of the saw. [Interjections.] That board should rather be removed, because there is sand, not a pool, under it.

I will return to this matter, but I do not want to lose the opportunity of making certain other points as well. In any case, I get too angry when I think of what has not been done in that area.

I must refer to the whole matter of pay beaches. Our party is not averse to a formula being worked out to introduce pay beaches in Natal. The hon Administrator has given an example in Durban and we have recently seen another example in Umzinto North, at Park Rynie. We believe that all developed beaches in Natal—I stress all—should be made pay beaches, not a hand-picked few. Secondly, charges must be commensurate with the facilities that are offered. [Interjections.]

What would happen to our communities? [Interjections.]

I wonder when the hon member for Isipingo was last in Park Rynie!

Let me explain immediately—I am coming to this point in regard to another issue now—that there is a principle involved here. We cannot stand by and allow the authorities to create a situation where they still retain White exclusive beaches. We cannot allow that. [Interjections.] That is exactly what will happen if certain beaches are picked out and turned into pay beaches.

That is wrong.

So the hon member for Mariannhill agrees with me. I thank him. I am satisfied as long as there is no confusion about what we are stating. There must be a principle established and a policy determined according to which all developed beaches are turned into pay beaches. Otherwise the whole concept must be abandoned.

Let us take the example of Umzinto. What is happening now at Park Rynie? People used to arrive there and simply camp at no charge. Because people have to pay, those who do not like paying too much are paying a cent for their facilities and trying to pass it by. What is happening with Park Rynie? Hon members must go and see for themselves. I do not mean to say that we have anything against it.

Several non-Coloured speakers spoke at length about the fate of Coloured local affairs committees. Now, having felt that Coloured branding-iron myself, I believe that this South African can speak with authority on this subject.

Let us be clear about a few things. NP policy for local government for Coloureds and Indians holds out three options. The first one includes advice to the rulers of our towns and cities. Advice! It need not be taken, but it is advice. The second option includes advice and a limited final say in certain matters.

The third one is autonomy. Let us not fight about it—that is the policy. Our party does not accept that policy but we are not angry with the hon member for Umhlatuzana because we do not accept their policy.

Why do you not agree?

We remain friends. I just understand that it is their policy. It is a statement of fact. However, we will come to that another time. Let us not quarrel. The LP’s demands in local government were adequately spelt out by my colleague the hon the Deputy Minister of Population Development yesterday. We stand for direct representation.

I believe that it is sheer effrontery—for leaders of a community which is not averse to extracting everything it possibly can out of existing NP policy, and perhaps more too for their own good—to come and express the fear that an hon MEC from Natal will be able to win LP LAC members over to accepting NP policy. We are not going to be advised by people who have accepted NP policy—a community which has accepted it and grabbed everything they could out of it and now come and pontificate to us about what we should do.

We have stayed away from NP policy and hon members must please not throw Pacaltsdorp at me—we know the circumstances of that place. Other than in that area we have not accepted autonomy anywhere and we have remained friends with the NP. Although we are sick and tired of the present local government set-up, we have not fought with them about it.

I want to ask the hon MEC, Mr Miller, if he can explain why this MP debated on the Group Areas Act—the most sensitive issue in this country—in quite a mixed joint Parliament while my colleagues here at the third tier level of government are kept in a mini-CRC situation. If I can walk into Parliament and debate the Group Areas Act with the hon the State President, why can my hon colleagues at the third tier level of government not sit and debate with the mayor about whether there should be pay beaches or not?

There is no politics there!

No politics there? My goodness! Pay beaches are not politics? My goodness!

I am tired of hearing that a White city council runs the affairs of the city while local affairs committees are administering their own poverty in their dormitory townships. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I wish I had the privilege of continuing the debate on behalf of the hon member for Wentworth seeing that his time has expired. It is always a pleasure to follow on the hon member for Wentworth. He is not only the MP for the constituency in which I live, but he is also a close friend and neighbour.

In dealing with the matter which was raised by the hon member for Pietermaritzburg North concerning a structure plan for the Pietermaritzburg metropolitan area, I will merely reiterate what I said yesterday in connection with this matter. I believe he expressed concern that this should be done and I quote:

I hope that satisfies the hon member’s concern in that regard.

Mr Chairman and hon members, I also wish to touch on a point which was raised by the hon member for Umhlatuzana yesterday. I was initially concerned that he was not in the House and would not hear what I had to say. However, I am pleased to note that he has returned and resumed his seat in which case he may draw some benefit from what I have to say regarding his concerns for Group Areas Act permit applications.

I do not want to say too much about his suggestion that, because we do not support the Group Areas Act, it follows that we must then open up our areas to all and sundry. This is patently absurd and I reiterate that the Group Areas Act must be repealed in its entirety.

He observed that statistics regarding permit applications and appeals tended to indicate a “pressure” on so-called White areas and that non-White persons were “gravitating” towards White areas. I wish to remind the hon member of the dispossession of the non-White people’s properties with the implementation of the Group Areas Act. I can quote thousands such examples of the disproportionate allocation of land to the different race groups for him. There is naturally going to be movement from areas of greater concentration and pressure to areas where houses and land have been over-provided for Whites. One does not have to be a scientist to understand that basic principle.

Having said that, I wish to come to my formal statement which concerns the Sub-directorate of Social Welfare and Pensions. I wish to deal initially with the social pensions sub-division.

With the devolution of social welfare functions in respect of Blacks to the four provinces, the administration of Black pensions and allowances was assigned to the four provinces with effect from 1 November 1986. The Natal Provincial Administration took physical control of the social pensions and allowances during the early half of 1987. When the function was taken over, there were some 56 300 beneficiaries in receipt of the usual type of pension and allowances and I will not enumerate these. There are now, approximately two years later, some 66 300 beneficiaries in receipt of the aforementioned pensions and allowances—which is approximately 10 000 more. In the same period the basic pension rate has increased from R97 per month to R150 per month.

The Natal Provincial Administration is responsible for the administration of social pensions and allowances in respect of Black people permanently resident outside the KwaZulu area. While the permanent residents of KwaZulu are excluded from our responsibility, a close liaison exists between this Administration and the KwaZulu government in regard to social pensions and allowances.

In order to administer the payment of social pensions and allowances in Natal effectively, the Social Pensions Division was established, consisting of a head office situated in Pietermaritzburg and 14 district offices and two sub-offices situated in various centres throughout Natal. The district officers and sub-officers are responsible for the receipt of applications for pensions and allowances and all attendant functions, including the function which is most important and most onerous of physical payment of the pensions and allowances. The payment of pensions and allowances is affected through some 300 paypoints. The nature of these paypoints varies from specially provided accommodation with counter facilities to vehicles parked under a tree in some remote area which can only be reached by a four-wheel drive vehicle. In many instances these paypoints include small trading stores.

The pensions have until recently been paid at two month intervals. With effect from 1 April 1990 all pensions and allowances are to be paid at monthly intervals at certain paypoints which are in close proximity to a district office. The remaining paypoints will be changed to monthly payments if beneficiaries so desire it. As has been stated, pensions and allowances are paid out in cash. However, provisions exist for all pensions and allowances, except foster care allowances, to be paid into savings accounts at either banks or building societies which have their obvious advantages.

All backlogs of applications have virtually been eliminated. Previously a waiting period from the date of application to the date of first payment was approximately one year. This has been reduced to three to four months and in some cases even less. To further facilitate payment of pensions, the whole system has been computerised and procedures fully automated.

I now come to the Sub-directorate of the social welfare division. At the end of 1986 social welfare functions regarding Blacks were devolved from the Department of Constitutional Development and Planning to the four provincial administrations. After this devolvement these functions and the functions of the social welfare functions of the already defunct development boards merged. This meant that a totally new feeing service was assigned to the administration, as was the case with the other four provinces.

The social welfare division consists of approximately 80 social work posts in districts and regional offices all over Natal. The division is responsible for running two places of safety in Edendale, accommodating 130 children respectively. At the Bayhead Place of Safety, situated in Durban, we have an institution accommodating 375 juveniles, including 50 females. The Mdabeni rehabilitation centre for alcoholics and drug addicts situated near Newcastle accommodates 70 patients. A very much needed new place of safety near Pinetown for preschool children, namely Zake, has been built and will be functioning in the near future.

Other fields of services regarding social work comprise the following: Child and family care, youth care, care for the aged, the alcohol and drug addict, corrective services and community development. At ground level social workers render services in close co-operation with the local authorities concerned. One of the essential functions of the Administration is to finance private social welfare services by means of subsidies for obvious reasons. The following services are subsidised: Social work field services of private welfare organisations, childrens’ homes, old-age homes, workshops for the disabled and women’s groups.

During the 1988-89 financial year approximately R2,5 million has been paid out in the form of subsidies. In the near future the subsidisation of social welfare field services will take place according to a new approved formula. Subsidisation will be based on the submission and ongoing evaluation of soundly structured social welfare programmes.

Regarding crèches, it is hoped that an effective subsidy scheme will become operational in the near future. A submission by the Department of Development Planning awaits Treasury approval.

Mr Chairman, time permitting I will come back to certain things that were said by Mr Pierce, MEC, and the hon member for Wentworth.

I would like to address the need for an intensive care unit at the Ladysmith Hospital. Bearing in mind that the Ladysmith Hospital is a regional hospital, it serves the whole of Northern Natal. It has a surgeon, a gynaecologist, an orthopaedic surgeon, a physician and will soon have the services of a paediatrician. There are 22 medical officers at the hospital and 100 private practising doctors are in the area. More operations—and this is very interesting—are performed at this hospital than at Greys in Pietermaritzburg.

The Ladysmith Hospital borders on the N3 freeway which is known for its large number of motor accidents. The hospital serves—and this is my estimate—a population of close to 500 000 people and yet it has no intensive care unit. There is no facility where a critically ill patient can be cared for. The need is thus urgent. It would not cost much to introduce an intensive care unit at Ladysmith since we have the infrastructure. The infrastructure that already exists are the specialists and doctors that are there. A ward is also available for this purpose. The superintendent is also prepared to send qualified staff for training should a unit be established there.

I want hon members to bear in mind that the hospital is a training centre for housemen, and that the Ladysmith Hospital already caters for the need by having academic ward rounds, lectures and a manual which is offered to the housemen. I also want to point out that the admissions for 1988 were as follows: Just more than 4 000 Whites, 208 Coloureds, 996 Asiatics and more than 24 000 non-Whites. If hon members will also bear in mind that approximately 1 000 people passed away in that hospital in the year, and bearing in mind that more than 6 000 operations were performed, I think the need for an intensive care unit is adequately and convincingly portrayed. If we had this facility in Ladysmith, it will alleviate the pressure at other hospitals.

*I am afraid that a problem has arisen in the health services of KwaZulu. I have the feeling that there is great tension and that those services have deteriorated for some or other reason. This places an additional burden on the hospitals in Vryheid and Dundee. This in turn places an additional burden on the Ladysmith Hospital, which is the regional hospital.

†I now want to refer to some of the arguments that were raised here by previous speakers. I have listened to those hon members who lambasted the Group Areas Act and who condemned the principle of group rights and who place all emphasis on the rights of the individual. They suggested that once the Group Areas Act is removed, peace would be the order of the day. I am surprised at the very superficial approach of those hon members. They do not take note of what is happening in the rest of the world. All over the world the mere existence of groups brings about strife. I can quote as examples Biafra, Bangladesh, Burundi, Brussels, Belfast, Beirut, Chad, Lebanon, Burma, Sudan, Nigeria, Somalia, Cyprus, Uganda, Syria, Sri Lanka and many, many other places.

Wherever a multiracial society is found—one has strife. The Group Areas Act is not applicable in those countries. How to eliminate conflict in a multiracial society is a problem that has not been solved anywhere in the world.

The Westminster type of democracy suggested by the PFP—now on its deathbed—is a recipe for disaster, as is amply demonstrated in the rest of Africa. The separation of the races is put forward as a solution and we know that it has solved many problems across the world. [Interjections.] India is proof of this since Pakistan took independence to solve the racial conflict in that area.

Separatists are found in South Africa, as in most multi-ethnic countries worldwide, for example the French in Quebec, the Flemings and the Walloons in Belgium, the Berbers in Algeria and the Croats in Yugoslavia are examples, to name but a few. The point I want to make is that own affairs which the NP stands for is a very sound foundation for our future peaceful coexistence. [Interjections.]

We know what has happened in Beirut. Because of strife in that city among groups fighting for its control the city is in the process of being destroyed. Can hon members who want to implement a Beirut situation here tell me on what logical foundation they want us to be placed on a similar footing? [Interjections.] It is nonsensical—there is no logic in it.

The point that I am trying to make is that the solution is not so easy and the problem cannot be resolved just by shouting down the Group Areas Act. There is a necessity to protect groups. Once that is understood by us all—both by myself and hon members on that side—I think a much more fruitful debate can ensue. [Interjections.] Such an in-depth debate has become necessary.

Mr Chairman …

Leave some for me!

The hon the Deputy Minister Mr Landers says I must leave some for him—I will.

In no other part of the world do we have such a monstrosity as a Group Areas Act. In no other part of the world at any time in history—except what happened when Stalin and Hitler arrived at a solution in 1939—was there such a swindling and a rape of rights as was perpetrated under the Group Areas Act. At no time in history was there such a destruction of neighbourhoods and communities as was perpetrated under the Group Areas Act. [Interjections.] I am surprised that there are people who can still stand here and defend that pernicious evil.

Having said that, I want to say that in all parts of the world, like tends to attract like. Ethnocentrism is common and people choose to live among their own kind. When one goes to New York one finds that the Chinese live in Chinatown and the Italians live in Italiantown. In Pennsylvania the former Dutch descendants actually live in one part of Philadelphia whereas the WASPS live in the other part of Philadelphia. That is by open common choice and that is how people should be allowed to live.

The hon member referred to racial factors. I am not aware that in Northern Ireland there are two separate races. As a matter of fact it is one race, begorra! In Beirut it is only religion that separates the Christians from the Moslems. They belong to the same ethnic and cultural group. So let us get away from the nonsense of compulsory compartmentalisation according to differences, rather than uniting people according to what they hold in common.

Reference was made to the applications for group areas permits. I have a standard letter which I use whenever there is a request from the department dealing with the matter for my views as the MP for Reservoir Hills. My standard letter is as follows:

Indeed, there are a number of persons who belong to the miscalled “Coloured” group in South Africa who have applied for permits to come and buy property and to live in Reservoir Hills. I have supported those applications and I am very happy to see that they are living very happily there among my constituents in Reservoir Hills.

If Black people should come along I would support their applications as well because we need settled communities. Recently a public utility company approached me. They wanted to build houses for Black people within the geographical area of my constituency although not within the technical legal area. I gave them my full blessings in writing.

I admit that not all my constituents would be happy with my attitude but I shall persist in that attitude because there are certain matters of principle. Those constituents who do not like me can support another political body. [Interjections.] I believe that the whole of Natal should be made a free settlement area—not just little pockets here and there.

I want to deal for a moment with an observation made in the annual report. It appears that the increase in the loss of staff due to maternity—that is women becoming pregnant—rose from 0,5% to 7%. This is a matter to which I believe the hon the Administrator should apply his undoubted forensic skills for investigative purposes. Obviously I am not going to say that he himself is past it but I am looking around at some of the nice handsome young officials here and even some of the hon members of the Executive Committee. I think we should find out whether they contributed to this upsurge in pregnancies. [Interjections.]

The report refers to the Indian staff. Now I want to make it quite clear that I am not an Indian. The Indians are in India whereas I am a South African. However, the report says that the Indian staff was minus 107 and largely because there was a secondment of these people to the Phoenix clinic. I am surprised that with the addition of staff in all the other categories in the other departments there was no addition of staff from this particular community.

Let me immediately say that I am not unmindful of the problems and the difficulties faced by the Executive Committee when it comes to hospital services. I am not unmindful of the great cost of running these hospitals. I have had personal experience of this. Under Paul Sykes we established a hospital for TB patients and I can say that at the present time our per patient cost per day is only R18. If those same patients had to be treated in these highly developed hospitals it probably would have cost R125.

The point that I want to make is that there is room within this province for the establishment of simple hospitals. If a person has a fractured leg one does not require him to have to go to the King Edward VIII or the Addington Hospital to have the leg set or to stay in hospital for a few days. He can go to a simple hospital. I am not talking of bush hospitals—I am talking of hospitals like St Mary’s and Osindisweni. Such a hospital where the cost structure is much lower can be used.

I want to compliment those responsible for the establishment of community health centres. It was started by Emily and Sidney Clarke way back in 1942. Unfortunately it was abolished when Dr Stals became the Minister of Health. We have wasted valuable time but it is still not too late.

I am glad that this is being done so that the community health centres will not only undertake community medicine in which preventive health will be a very important factor but will also be able to deal with curative medicine on a domiciliary basis, which will save a tremendous amount of money, because a large number of patients are ambulant and need not be hospitalised. From such a community health centre their ordinary needs could be dealt with without burdening the fiscus too heavily. Even for such simple procedures as tonsillectomies and appendectomies the patients do not have to be admitted to very highly classified and expensive hospitals.

It is not usual for me to praise the speech made by a member of the NP, but the speech given by the hon member for Umhlanga is one which I would have been proud to deliver. I would like to congratulate that hon member and I trust that within his caucus he will convey the ideas which he has put forward, because they are forward-looking, compassionate and humane. [Interjections.] That is the kind of thinking which we need from the ruling party.

When a hospital refuses treatment to a patient on racial grounds—I am happy to see here that Dr Fitzgerald, the Superintendent of Addington Hospital, has apologised—the reason is often that, although we have common sense at the higher levels, at the lower levels, particularly where persons who could be classified as White trash are dealing with the members of the public, people get compensation by being nasty to those whom they consider to be their inferiors. This really arises from their own inferiority complex. That must also be obliterated. I hope that instructions will be issued right down from the top to every level so that that kind of racialistic attitude may be completely eliminated.

There is such a thing as a Hippocratic Oath which every doctor takes. If he fails to treat a patient who needs that treatment then he is not only committing an act of unprofessional misconduct, but he is also acting as a hypocrite, not under the Hippocratic, but under the hypocritic oath. I believe that if such a patient whose life could have been saved by timely treatment dies, then that doctor is guilty of the crime of culpable homicide. I trust that it may never become necessary for the hon the Administrator and his administration to be sued for damages arising from the lack of the duty of care in that connection.

I believe that if such a situation occurs, we should see to it not only that any doctor involved, regardless of his race or colour, is prosecuted and fined or simply jailed, but also that the Administration as such is brought to book. I do not want to encourage malpractice suits as they have in the United States, but the law must be properly and vigorously applied to uphold the integrity, not only thereof, but also of what we would like to call civilisation in this country.

I have listened to the hon member who referred to the need for an ICU at the Ladysmith Hospital and I wish to support that view because that hospital caters not only for the town of Ladysmith, but also for the surrounding peri-urban and rural areas and it is necessary for that part of the world to be provided with this facility which is not all that terribly expensive. [Time expired]

Mr Chairman, it is a great privilege for us to be able to participate in this debate and I am sure that the hon member for Reservoir Hills will understand if I do not follow on what he had to say, because I have far more important matters to cover.

Let me at the outset express the CP’s sympathies and condolences to the bereaved of those members of our security forces who have recently fallen in the battle against terrorism in SWA.

May I also add my congratulations and thanks to those expressed by both my hon colleagues and other hon members with regard to the services rendered by the Natal Administration. In particular I would like to congratulate the Natal Parks Board. I think that their public relations action should serve as an example for all departments in the Provincial Administration.

I would further like to deal as quickly as possible with the wild allegations made by the hon MEC for roads with regard to an alleged press report which was given to me. I want to register my strong objection to this unwarranted attack. The hon MEC is an appointed member of the administration whose function it is to attend this committee meeting to answer questions, to react to enquiries and to inform us of what is happening in the province and not to make unfounded allegations in reaction to newspaper reports.

I would also like to express my total rejection of the manner in which it was done and say that if the hon MEC really was as concerned as he says he is, he had ample opportunity between 17 March and yesterday to approach me personally in order to confirm whether or not the reports were true.

In order to justify his action for this totally uncalled for example of political opportunism at its worst, he sent me a report in The Natal Witness after his speech which did not actually quote my words. This he used as a basis for his disgraceful suggestion that I had slandered officials of this administration. Let me read to hon members from the statement which I issued to every member of the Press who attended the meeting which I addressed in Durban. I began by saying:

I do not want to read the whole statement.

I would now like to refer to what appears to be large-scale corruption in Natal, with particular reference to the allocation of residential land. On the topic of corruption I then went on to say:

I am sure that the hon MEC will realise that I could not possibly have been referring to the Administration of Natal.

Finally, the corruption which is apparently common knowledge in Natal, except among the people who are supposed to take action on it, led me to say:

From that I think it must be quite clear that there was no insinuation, allegation or otherwise directed at the Provincial Administration of Natal. I expect the hon MEC to do the honourable thing and apologise to me as soon as possible.

And thereafter resign!

The hon MEC would do well to remember that the officials of Natal and the Transvaal, where I had eight and a half years of close contact, know what appreciation I and my colleagues in the CP have for their efforts. We know how they excel themselves in spite of serious restrictions in terms of time, money and NP Government created obstacles. They will not fall for what can only be described as the type of cheap political stunt which we have come to expect from the NP Government.

I would then like to touch on a matter regarding roads which concerns the hon MEC. I wish to express my alarm at the fact that 57% of the damage to our roads is caused by heavy duty vehicles. I am even more concerned by the fact that in Natal 16% of the heavy duty vehicles using the roads are overloaded. I believe that the existing laws are being blatantly contravened and that as a result, drastic action must be taken. Our roads, not only in Natal but throughout South Africa, are rapidly deteriorating. Mr Ronnie Meyer, a senior official of the Department of Transport, is on record as estimating that it will cost approximately R60 000 million to bring our road system back to the state in which it used to be.

Much of this amount is required to repair the damage caused through the greed of operators of these overloaded vehicles, and I call on the hon MEC for roads to let the province of Natal set the example by instituting punishment through new legislation that will act as a real deterrent—even if this means the impounding of the offending vehicles. We will support him totally on that.

I now want to turn to the hon member for Umhlanga. I am grateful that he could be in the Chamber while I speak. I just want to say that he has a short memory. That hon member was also a nominated MP for a time, but he, as a left-wing Nat, won a Prog constituency. I am going to win a Nat constituency—one which the leader of the NP, the hon the Minister of National Education, in 1987 considered to be such a safe seat for the Nats that he made the statement in writing that when Krugersdorp falls, the NP will fall. Therefore the hon member will know what to expect at the next election, whenever it is held.

Put your money where your mouth is.

I want to ask the hon member, in relation to this whole beach controversy, whether he recognises that document. We are close enough together. Did he in fact have control over the publication of this document?

Yes.

Does he stand by everything that appears in this document?

Yes, why not?

He says so. I thank the hon member. Now, let me quote from an election document which was issued by the NP in Durban during the municipal election in October 1988. This is not history—this is recent.

[Interjections.] That is not only one reference. There is another special statement here. It is entitled: “NP statement on beaches.” This is how they con the public into voting for them.

It is clear from this document that in terms of the NP’s statements there is a need for the White group to have their own beaches. However, that hon member is not even prepared to provide separate beach facilities for his own community in Umhloti. Now I want to know how the NP can justify this contradiction within its ranks. The hon the MEC is proud to say that they stand for totally open beaches throughout Natal. The hon member says that Umhloti, a White beach, must be thrown open to all. The hon members facing me here are … [Interjection.] I beg your pardon?

There is a veto.

Well, Sir, that can be changed, but the NP lacks the courage to look after the people who elected them to represent them. [Interjections.] The hon MEC Mr Miller tells us that everything in the garden was rosy on the beaches over the holiday season. My information is, for example, that Indian beachgoers were again attacked on the northern multiracial beaches, their possessions stolen and their day ruined by a marauding group of young Blacks. Is that good order? I do not think so.

Your information was wrong.

I do not think so. We asked earlier how many policemen were required to maintain what the hon member said was good order, and we have not had an answer to that. I hope that the hon the MEC will give us that answer. My information is also that in order to be able to claim that we had an incident-free season, people were allowed to do just as they pleased. Litter was everywhere, and the ratepayers of Durban had to pay R2 200 per day to clean it up.

I now want to turn to the hon MEC Mr Pierce, the man responsible for seeing to it that the Group Areas Act is applied. He says the Act must be totally abolished. How can the Government …

Mr Chairman, will the hon member take a question?

No, Sir. I am sorry, my time is very limited. I have a lot of information that I want to bring to the attention of the voters of Natal.

I want to ask: Does the NP Government really expect him to do his job? No wonder there is such a problem in Durban that the hon member for Durban Point has to run to the hon the Deputy Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning and say to him: “For Heaven’s sake, man, what are you doing in Albert Park in Durban?” I want to tell him that he will get the same treatment for his voters in Albert Park as the people of Windmill Park in Boksburg are getting from that very same hon Minister, who issued assurances in August 1988 that Windmill Park would not be a grey area. He then issued a statement in March 1989 saying that they are going to grant temporary permits. On 3 April we read that Johannesburg’s Mayfair, Windmill Park near Boksburg and Warwick Triangle near Durban—I do not know whether that is in the hon member’s constituency—will be the first grey areas to be investigated by the Free Settlement Areas Board. To blazes with what the voters of the constituency think; the NP decides what is best for them, and they do it! As far as the hon member for Pietermaritzburg North is concerned, if he, as the hon member for this town, was concerned about the report in that newspaper, he would also have approached me and said: “How can you make a statement like this about the officials?” However he, too, was totally silent.

I now wish to deal with the constitutional alternatives with which this body is actually involved in terms of the Joint Executive Authority of Natal. I want to say that the effect of Mr Botha’s continuation in office is to render Mr De Klerk, their leader, the NP and Parliament as a whole, totally powerless, once again confirming what we in the CP warned against 6 years ago, namely that the NP’s so-called reform Constitution created a total dictatorship. The fact remains that unless Mr P W Botha agrees to go, there is no way that Mr De Klerk, the whole of the NP caucus of 130 members who presently dominate proceedings in Parliament—until the next election at least—can do anything to remove Mr Botha from office. They know it, and Mr Botha knows it too. I can understand his reluctance, facing as he does the prospect of handing over power to South Africa’s prime political tightrope artist, Minister F W De Klerk, whose power base is in any case going to be destroyed after the next election.

However, let us read a couple of points mentioned in the March 16 edition of the Times of London, in which they refer to the comic-opera power struggle between President Botha and FW De Klerk as “The battle of the bald eagles”. They go on to say:

However, they say that if such a deal saw Buthelezi firmly ensconced in a major regional power base of his present Kwazulu plus Natal—that is the Natal solution—and once the South West Africa sell-out is completed, you are next on the list, unless we in the CP are successful in stopping this thing! [Interjections.]

However, let me just ask the hon members of the executive to comment on a report which appeared in the March 23 edition of the Times of London. It says that one of the reasons why Mr R F (Pik) Botha visited Mrs Thatcher was to express their frustrations at the fact that they cannot get rid of the hon the State President. They also say—I hope the hon member will deny this, but unfortunately he is not present:

They go on to say:

[Interjections.] However, one senior source—I am asking for comment, not accusing …[Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, having listened to this diatribe from the hon member Mr Derby-Lewis, I just want to say one thing—God help South Africa if ever the CP were to come to power!

I have several matters that I want to raise and I shall not waste any more time on the hon member. Suffice it to say that with reference to the—if I may say so—rather flippant suggestion by the hon MEC Mr Pierce that the Group Areas Act should be scrapped, if it is done it has got to be across the board. One has to be consistent. However, when the hon member spoke here earlier, I did get the impression that he wants it to be White areas only. That nobody will ever accept.

I would like to associate myself with the remarks made by the hon member for Umhlanga yesterday when he paid tribute to the Natal Parks Board for the new trust they have established. I associate myself with the words expressed by the hon member. I would like to go further and say that I think we, hon members present here, should set the example to the public and to commerce and industry to take out membership. The smallest denomination of membership one can take out is an ordinary membership which costs R10. I am sure hon members of Parliament can afford R10 a year towards the Natal Parks Board trust.

Coming to an issue which is a little more serious, having previously raised the issue of nurses’ salaries, I would like to talk about salaries of staff of the Parks Board and in particular those of conservationists. In November 1986 the management of forestry conservation areas was transferred from the Department of Environment Affairs to the NPA. The Commission for Administration at the time requested the work study division of the province to integrate the posts with and transfer them to the establishments of the provincial nature conservation agencies. The work study division, in its report, included amongst other things a proposal for the improvement in the remuneration package for nature conservationists. The commission at the time did not see it as a priority and did not deem it necessary to include such an increase in the 1988-89 financial year. This has resulted in a crisis, not only here in Natal, but in the other provinces—the Transvaal, the Free State and the Cape as well.

To become a ranger and then graduate to a conservationist one has to pass a three-year course. If individuals who pass that course and give years of dedicated service are forced to leave because of financial reasons, what other work can they go and do? They are qualified to do a job in conservation. It is not like a clerk or a person in some other profession who can go from one company to another company. They either have to work for a conservation body in a Government or quasi-Government sector or go and work at a private game reserve. Losing our conservationists who are, as I said before, dedicated and highly qualified people, creates an enormous vacuum. To fill that gap again is very, very difficult and retards the services which the Natal Parks Board and the other boards in the other provinces can give the public, because at the end of the day the public will suffer as a consequence of losing good men and women in the service of the board.

I want to make an appeal here this morning to the hon member of the Executive Committee in charge of the Natal Parks Board urgently to make representations to the Commission for Administration for the immediate increase of the salaries of these people. I will give hon members some examples. A chief conservator in the forestry department earns R37 665, whereas the Natal Parks Board scale is R34 803. A warden earns R26 550 in the forestry department, but R22 224 in the Natal Parks Board. The scales for ranger are exactly the same. I therefore appeal to the hon member of the Executive Committee please to make urgent representations in this regard.

The other thing I would like to mention is something I mentioned when we still had the provincial council. I raised it in 1977-78 and again in 1985, together with my other colleagues who were serving with me at the time. We called on the provincial administration to purchase a light aircraft. The Parks Board has one and from time to time departments ask the help of the Parks Board for the use of their aircraft. If our officials and executive directors and directors are to be efficient, time is of the essence. Natal is vast. To travel up to Dundee and various other areas takes days and hours of an executive’s time. If one could fly to those particular areas, it would cut costs tremendously. I believe that hospitals and community affairs could use it, and in particular the Roads department, which travels vast distances to inspect and repair our roads. It would also help hon members of our Executive Committee who have to attend meetings in Ulundi from time to time. Whereas they have to hire aircraft at the moment, I believe if we have our own aircraft, we can save costs in this particular field.

I just want to mention another matter, namely the Development and Services Board. I believe the magnificent work that this board does is totally overlooked by most of the people in Natal. They are probably not even aware of what it actually does. The board controls something like 57 development areas and 33 regulated areas, according to the report, and has a staff of some 800. One of the major undertakings which they have just completed is a housing project in Redcliffe, where they have built something like 512 units, ranging from one-bedroom dwellings to four-bedroom dwellings. I think this is commendable. This is only one facet of the board’s involvement. There are many other facets, and I would like to pay tribute to that board, its members and staff for the wonderful work they are doing for all communities here in Natal, whether they be Black, White, Coloured or Indian. It does not matter who one is; they are involved throughout the entire spectrum of our communities, in the poorer areas in particular. I would like to pay tribute to them for their fantastic services.

Mr Chairman, I would like to associate myself with the sentiments expressed regarding the happenings in Namibia, especially the killing of the unfortunate people, especially at a time when the transitional government is established.

In the period allotted to me, it will be necessary for me to get on with business without any delay.

In the province we have four Indian local authorities, namely Marburg, Umzinto North, Isipingo and Verulam. It must be emphasised that since the inception of each of these they have all gone through the humiliation of facing an inquiry. This being the case, it is now necessary to find out why this is so. In my opinion this examination is absolutely necessary. I may point out that there are several factors which have directly led to such a situation. Without belabouring the point too much, it must be pointed out that inexperienced personnel without proper qualifications were entrusted with high-level administration. In this fashion autonomy was given indiscriminately, whether the area was financially viable or not, and regardless of whether it was producing poor results. Thus instead of prospering, these regions became liabilities.

Without casting aspersions on any other local authority, let me bring into focus my own constituency of Isipingo. Firstly, because of the fact that Prospecton was stolen from the Indians of Isipingo, the local authority was still-born from the word go. Hon members are aware of the many representations made and legal battles already fought in this regard, and I make bold to say that this administration unfortunately offered no assistance to my people. Amanzintoti continues to reap the benefit emanating from the huge industrial complex, the rates of which would have adequately satisfied the needs of the whole of Isipingo. By contrast, Amanzintoti very kindly donated the shanty and neglected slum with no facilities whatsoever, which to date remains undeveloped. Malakazi was inhabited by the poorest of Indians, with many Blacks amongst them.

In the circumstances Isipingo remains in need of road repair and general amenities, not to mention our beaches which are unprotected against the menace of shark attacks which has made headlines throughout the media. This Committee should realise the consequences of such news. In effect, it places the entire coastline in a bad light. Can one honestly calculate the financial ruin to business and the hotel trade?

I am aware that as much as Isipingo needs shark nets, it cannot afford the cost. Perhaps the only alternative is to further increase the rates of the already heavily burdened community. In other words, let the people of Isipingo pay for the benefit and pleasure of sun and water worshippers from all over the country. I could go on presenting my observations and feelings to this House, but suffice it to say that this situation is a sad result of the heads I win, tails you lose game that this administration is playing in this Chamber.

In conclusion, I would venture to say that if no tangible guarantees can be given by the administration to solve these difficulties, I suggest that the local authority of Isipingo be disbanded and the area be placed under the jurisdiction of Amanzimtoti to be administered by a multiracial council. This Chamber is a historical chamber and it will soon be celebrating its centenary. However, what has this Chamber done for the non-White community? It has created hardship and frustration and I say this not in anger or with hatred, but in frustration.

We have participated in politics at the risk of our lives. Everyone present will remember the turmoil of 1984 when there was necklacing. Soon the necklacing will start again, because participation-politics is paying no respect to us. What do we have? We have a frustrated community, because we do not get what we want.

I have been a resident of Clairwood which has subsequently been declared a slum area. What has this Chamber done about it? It has done nothing but destroy that community. That community lived side by side to people of all colours, including Whites. What has this Chamber done? It has taken no heed of the circumstances that prevailed there. Instead it has created frustration. Must we now congratulate people because this Chamber is soon going to have its centenary celebrations?

We have paid for our education. We have paid for everything we can call our own, but since our participation we have been suffering and we have to live with our frustrations. At the end of the day we are going to support organisations like the UDF and ANC who will take over this country by way of revolution, because we are getting absolutely nothing. People speak of protecting the rights of the individual, but which rights does the Group Areas Act protect? Which individual does the Group Areas Act protect? We want to live side by side to others, because we have been living in this country for a long time.

Why is there a fight in the NP, especially as far as leadership is concerned? It is because one person is prepared to have reform and the other is not! Then we also have the CP with its own ideologies that should have been buried in the 1600s when Van Riebeeck came here. If we want recognition from the world, if we want to fight sanctions and boycotts, we have to give freedom and rights to the people of this country. I am not speaking with hatred, but with frustration.

Mr Chairman, I suppose it would be most appropriate to react immediately to the hon member for Isipingo. I want to say in as balanced a way as I possibly can that his frustration perhaps arises from within his and his community’s own bosom.

I want to briefly deal with the shark net issue. To this day no formal request has ever been received …

Mr Chairman, will the hon MEC take a question?

Sir, I will not take a question now. I want to made my statement first.

Mr Chairman, I think he is misleading the House, because the request was made in 1975.

Sir, I have not finished my sentence. I have said to this day, in recent times, no request has been made. In 1975 a request was made and a quotation was given to the board which stated that it would cost them R10 000. No further communication was thereafter received from Isipingo. In 1986 a similar situation arose. This time the cost had risen to something in the region of R225 000. Once again the matter was taken no further by Isipingo.

I want to place on record that right at the present time, between the Parks Board and this administration, we are spending nearly R2 million in Isipingo, assisting them with their beach facilities.

R1,2 million!

My figures are more accurate that the hon member’s. The hon member has accused us of lack of assistance, but I would like to draw his attention to the admission by the local authority of Isipingo itself that it could not administer Prospecton. It is in writing. [Interjections.]

I have it in writing! I can dispute that!

It is in the evidence that was led to the Demarcation Commission. It is clearly stated in the evidence.

Finally, I would finally like to say that the NPA is accused of all sorts of disastrous deeds relative to Clairwood. Never in the past nor now has the responsibility for the situation in Clairwood ever been that of the Natal Provincial Administration.

Who is the father of the body?

Finally, I want to refer to staff problems in Isipingo. I would simply remind the hon member that the staff in Isipingo were appointed by the Isipingo Town Board. The borough of Isipingo appointed them. It is no good pointing fingers at other instances when the responsibility clearly lies in one’s own bosom in the first instance.

I move to other matters. I simply would like to comment on the whole question of the reference by many hon members to the question of nominated executives, clearly in an effort to try and belittle the present Executive Committee. I just want to place on record a historical fact. In the 76 years of the existence of the Natal Provincial Council and the elected body, they have had nominated members of the Executive Committee on many occasions.

It was a simple question. Are they going to put shark nets in Isipingo?

Several hon members have raised the question of the Development and Services Board and have commented on the need to retain this board because of the fine work that it does. I want to say that there is no doubt whatsoever that in this particular statutory body we have a model which could well be followed elsewhere. It will be a sad day if we simply go ahead with the abolition of a body without truly thinking out the consequences.

I want to say to you that it has become clear in the Transvaal that they now have to find a body to replace the Peri-urban Development Board there, because it has been found that due to the abolition of that board, a serious vacuum has been left in the administration of developing communities in that particular area.

However, in the course of comments on the Development and Services Board the question did arise as to the need to perhaps look into its efficiency and in particular reference was made to the apparent inefficiency of the Development and Services Board in providing housing to the community at Shakaskraal.

I wish to place the facts concerning that situation on record officially in this House today. On 27 January 1988—I would be glad if hon members of the House of Delegates will pay attention to what I have to say—a delegation went to Cape Town to meet the former hon Minister of Housing and Chairman of the Ministers’ Council in the House of Delegates. They presented him with a memorandum and letter on the problems associated with the Shakaskraal housing development for the Indian Community. In fact, the letter was dated 27 January 1988 but the meeting was held in Cape Town on 28 January 1988. On that same day the former hon Minister gave instructions to his staff that he required a report to be prepared within 21 days.

Two more letters of reminder were sent to that department, in March and in early May 1988. In May 1988 a reply was received saying that the department was giving the matter its urgent attention. It is now April 1989 and three more reminders have been given but no reply has been received. We cannot make any progress in Shakaskraal, yet the hon members said yesterday that they are going to investigate the Development and Services Board because of its inefficiency that has lead to the delay in the housing project in Shakaskraal!

The problem is that the Ministers in the House of Delegates are protecting their own interests.

That is not fair!

In the tricameral Parliament the majority of elected members for Natal come from the Indian community. If I am not mistaken nearly 30 members of Parliament come from that particular community and all were free to attend this session today. In fact, I think it is a slur on this House that there is not one hon member of the Ministers’ Council present to listen to what is being said.

I am with you.

You are quite right.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: is it fair for the hon MEC to cast aspersions without first establishing where the Ministers are?

Order! That is not a point of order. The hon MEC may proceed.

To the best of my knowledge, there are six hon members present today out of a potential number of nearly 30.

They are taking carrots!

I pose the question: Is this an indication of the interest that they have in the affairs of this province? I wish to pay tribute to the hon members of the House of Representatives, House of Assembly, and even our visitors from the Transvaal, for the fact that they are here and are taking a firm interest in the affairs of the province when so many of my fellow Natalians could not be bothered to be present today.

Including your Minister!

: I proceed on the question of beaches. I want to make a statement on the overall policy.

[Inaudible.]

Whenever we consider where to place new facilities, the principle is that we should concentrate on the dispersion of crowds and on what we have identified as the “hot spots” along our coasts. These “hot spots” are areas which naturally attract crowds, particularly from communities who previously had limited facilities. We have no problem at all—as was mentioned earlier by the hon member for Reservoir Hills—with allowing communities together, naturally and without coercion.

I think it has been very interesting to observe how the pattern has developed after we spent nearly an additional R8 million on the beaches in Durban and to see that the new facility just north of the Natal Command, which has been completed for the Easter season, has virtually become the exclusive area for the Indian and Coloured community. I walked among those people this Easter weekend and out of interest I mention the fact that I observed not one member of the White community nor one member of the Black community present among that very happy crowd of people who were using those new facilities. It was also clear to me that the central beaches have become very much the domain of the Black community per se. It was very interesting to observe on the southern beaches that these were overwhelmingly—in fact, exclusively, because that is how they are zoned currently—crowded to the full with members of the White community.

At this stage I would refer very briefly to what the hon nominated member from the Transvaal had to say on the question of beaches. I simply wish to say that the statement which he read out on the whole question of the municipal election and the promise that all beaches currently reserved shall remain reserved—I wrote down carefully what he said—is, in fact, exactly what has happened. All beaches currently reserved shall remain reserved and, funnily enough, that is what has happened.

It is not surprising to me that when the hon member came to Pietermaritzburg to have a meeting, he had to have his meeting in the Oddfellows’ Hall. [Interjections.]

I also wish to publicly challenge him today to provide substantiated proof of an incident which allegedly took place on the beaches of Natal over the Easter period where Indians were attacked by “marauding Blacks”. I publicly challenge him to substantiate that and to provide me with the information as to which police station received the report of that particular incident. I interviewed members of the SA Police, the municipal police and the emergency services of the province and they confirmed without exception that the Easter weekend was one of the most peaceful periods we have ever experienced on our beaches.

With regard to the Police I would like to draw the hon member’s attention to the fact that there were policemen present, unobtrusively in the background. However, a very interesting fact is that there were less police per capita than there are when we have an international rugby match, in which case virtually the entire spectator group is from the White community. Therefore there is nothing strange in having policemen unobtrusively in the background where large groups of people gather.

I would like to expand briefly on the question of so-called “pay beaches”. I simply want to say that I prefer to call this particular type of beach a “control beach”. If the object of a control beach is to control overcrowding and therefore to limit anti-social behaviour then this administration will support such control, particularly where the topography and other circumstances permit and warrant such a control beach facility.

The hon member for Springfield yesterday raised the situation of land demarcation in the Marburg area. I want to place on record that there is an investigation into how the Marburg commonage should be shared among the three competing local authorities, namely Port Shepstone, Marburg and the Merlewood Coloured community, which I do not want to leave out.

We have not been able to obtain agreement amongst the three competing authorities. We have been able to obtain agreement simply on an advertisement for purposes of having a demarcation. None of the parties concerned actually agree that the advertised subdivision will be the final one. However, we have to get the process going. The preparation of a structure planned in that area, announced by my colleague Mr Pierce, MEC, will also contribute to finding solutions in that area. I want to thank the hon member for Umbilo for a very positive and constructive speech, in which he concentrated on the need for the creation of job opportunities, for genuinely cheap housing and for export promotion. It is interesting that so often the constructive speeches are the ones that get the least publicity.

*The hon member for Umfolozi requested us to give assistance where we could with the reconstruction of roads at places such as St Lucia, Kwambonambi, Louwsburg and Matuba, where the roads were damaged by floods and other elements earlier this year. I give him the undertaking that we shall investigate this matter in co-operation with the Development and Services Board. We shall also attend to the whole question of water supply in that area. We are working on that at present. The board that advises me on water affairs is already conducting an investigation in that area.

†I would like to make a statement on the whole question of the treatment of people in a situation such as Luganda. The hon member for Pinetown raised this pointedly yesterday. I want to say that the Natal Provincial Administration has no statutory or juristic obligation to people who are moved off private land by the private sector as part and parcel of a private development or a private undertaking. We do, however, have an interest in the sense that we are the body which participates in the general care of Blacks outside homelands. The question therefore arises as to what the role of the NPA is in negotiating with the residents of Luganda. Our legal position is that we only have an interest in those persons once they become homeless, and that the actual negotiation on how they must move from privately owned land must be carried out, starts with the private developers that are concerned. However, we have, simply out of sympathy and in an effort to try and facilitate an acceptable solution, met community leaders from Luganda and we have participated in discussions in seeking a solution.

The question then arises: Once they become homeless people, what is our role in resettling them? Here we do have an obligation in attempting to find land. But that obligation, too is not a statutory obligation for the simple reason that any tenant who is evicted from any land does not suddenly become our responsibility, so that we have to find him alternative accommodation. The matter is bedevilled by an influx from areas where these people traditionally lived. I am sure that this influx is far greater than that which was contemplated when the legislation was framed. In many instances, as in the Luganda situation of course, the people that are being moved were never squatters. There is evidence that some of the people there have lived there as long as 60 years. In fact, they were tenants. Until some six years ago they paid their rent. Then suddenly a situation arose where they began to resist paying rent to the legal land-owners and so the legal land-owners sought other ways of making their asset valuable to them. Therefore they negotiated and sold their land to developers, who cannot develop unless they move the people. It is a very complex issue and I hope I have made it clear as to what the juristic and legal responsibility is of this administration, as distinct from our moral and other responsibilities based on the fact that we are a caring and humane administration.

The hon member for Cavendish dealt at some length with the question of Shallcross yesterday and he indicated that he felt that the level of services in Shallcross was not as high as he desired. I just want to place on record that Shallcross in reality is a model township; that the standard of services in Shallcross is as high as any other comparable town. The needs of Shallcross are no greater than virtually any other comparable town and all comparable towns feel that they have needs and requirements. We can only in this instance cut our coat according to our cloth. In fact, I believe, in all fairness, that Shallcross is really a privileged community.

The hon member for South Coast raised the issue of sewage pumped into the sea. I want to say that this administration and the members thereof are too experienced in matters that are politically sensitive to ever say that they would force a community into accepting something that they, the community, essentially have to pay for against their will. We simply want the community to have all the options open to them when they make the decision. Our job is to guide them to make a sensible decision. Our job is not to make the decision for them.

On the question of a small craft harbour, I want to say that I have already held discussions with academic experts from the University of Stellenbosch on this particular issue. Had we received the funds that we thought we were going to receive for the development of recreational facilities in the present year, it may have been possible. We had agreed to the spending of a sum of R50 000 for an investigation as to a suitable site for a small craft harbour somewhere between the Umkomaas River and the Umtumvuna River, and that thereafter, having identified a site, the responsibility for the provision of such a small craft harbour would then become that of the private sector and the holiday and tourist trade. It might still be possible in the coming year. I want to emphasise that there is still a great amount of uncertainty as to exactly what funds we will have available to us for these open air recreation facilities. We have had certain promises from a responsible Minister, but we have not had the confirmation from the Treasury that the promise of the Minister will in fact be met.

The same argument applies to the question of the second phase of the beach development at Port Shepstone. If we get the money we shall be glad to continue supporting what promises to be an extremely successful development. We cannot make that commitment at this stage.

The hon member for Umhlanga put his finger right on the nub of the problem when he said that the province should be a major player in the whole process of dealing with shack dwellers and the urbanisation problem. I agree with him. However, I want to point out that the R1,2 billion to which I made reference yesterday was promised and agreed to, but it has not been provided. That is part of the problem. At this stage all that has been provided is R350 million which the Development Bank has made available to our partners in this whole problem, the government of KwaZulu. The central issue, therefore, revolves around how we can make tribal land available for the building of these initial large cities which they will eventually become.

The issue was referred to yesterday by the hon member for Pietermaritzburg North and I want to confirm that the need to make tribal land available to help solve this problem is probably the most critical issue at the present time. An urbanisation super committee is undoubtedly needed in Natal. As the chairman of the Joint Executive Authority’s Standing Committee on Urbanisation and Development I want to give the assurance that the Joint Executive Authority will give as much attention as it possibly can to assisting in this issue.

The hon member for Wentworth spoke about Ifafa Beach. In the light of the intense questioning on Monday which was well received and to which answers were deserved, I want to say that there was an official visit to Ifafa Beach during the past two days. I can report that at the present time virtually the entire main tidal pool is from waist deep to over a normal man’s head. At the present time the entire beach seems to have lost about a metre of sand. One can, in fact, see the walls of the children’s pool which one only knew about by reading the notice which said there was a pool there somewhere.

I want to give the hon member the assurance that we are not proud of the fact that our genuine and sincere efforts at Ifafa Beach have backfired. We are committed to putting them right. I appreciate the responsible and balanced manner in which he tackled this issue and I have a deep appreciation for his feelings in this regard.

I heard it said here today that Umzinto is a pay beach. I want to put that right immediately. Umzinto is certainly not a pay beach but one has to pay to use certain camping sites adjoining the beach. That is correct, but nobody has to pay to go and swim on the beach at Umzinto. It is absolute nonsense that it should be stated in this Committee that Umzinto is a pay beach. There are no pay beaches on the Natal coast at the present time.

The hon member also raised the issue that he can debate in Parliament while LAC members cannot debate at third tier level. In the closed debate on Monday I gave the hon the Deputy Minister the commitment that our ordinance makes provision for that debate to take place. We are going to encourage it to take place and where necessary the Executive Committee will use its rights to insist that that debate between LACs and their mother local authorities takes place at this stage. We believe that that debate is very important indeed.

I have a few further matters to deal with and I shall do so in my final speaking occasion which will come later.

Mr Chairman, I would like to ally myself with previous speakers’ expression of sympathy with the death of those who lost their lives in Namibia in the past two or three days.

The many varied points and issues raised over the past two or three days have made this one of the most interesting and constructive debates I have had the pleasure and privilege of participating in. Unlike other parliamentary debates an interesting and positive feature of this debate is that hon members speak more than once during the proceedings. Hon members know that this is a privilege normally reserved for Cabinet Ministers. Hon members will also agree that being accorded this privilege has made the debate that much more interesting.

In my contribution to this debate I shall endeavour to deal with some parochial issues, as well as to reply to some aspects of political policy as raised by other hon members. Allow me to say at the outset that the proposed library for the Mariannridge township is most welcome. It has been brought to my attention by the leaders of this community that they have identified the need for open-air recreation facilities in the area. There is specifically an area next to the Umhlatuzana River which could be effectively developed to meet this need. I would like to ask the relevant MECs and officials to go out and meet these leaders and to look at the area concerned.

We have also been informed that the Provincial Administration is responsible for the training of nurses. We have also learned via a reply to a question that facilities and services at provincial hospitals in Natal are segregated in terms of race. This practice must be condemned in the strongest possible terms. I regard the nursing profession as an honourable one and such practices reflect badly on the profession as a whole. Worst still, this reflects on the Executive Committee as a group of men who are prepared to accept that the dignity of our nurses in Natal can be impaired in this way. I call upon the Executive Committee to abolish such discriminatory practices as a matter of urgency.

When we speak of medical and health services—I would like the hon MEC, Mr Volker, to take this into serious consideration—there is a basic principle which I believe should be a guiding one. Economic realities, cost-effectiveness and efficiency are principles that should be applied in health services throughout the province. The whole question of “due respect to cultural and ethnic wishes” is another euphemism for race discrimination. Therefore economic realities, cost-effectiveness and efficiency should be our guiding principles. If the running of a particular ward or hospital in terms of racial and apartheid policies is such that it is costing the taxpayer money, it stands to reason that that practice should stop.

In another reply to a question I was given the assurance by the responsible MEC that no racial restrictions are applied to the training of nurses and that trainee nurses are referred to hospitals and institutions outside of the province only when the quotas applied by a province have been filled. In no way do I wish to doubt the word of the hon MEC but I do believe that there is cause for concern in this regard. We read in The Natal Mercury of Tuesday, 4 April 1989, that South Africa, in fact, faces a decline in the number of nursing students. The article reads as follows:

If this is the case in the Province of Natal—I would like the hon the MEC to tell us if this is the case—then there is cause for much concern. Nurses form the basis and are indeed the lifeblood of health services and medical care. It is important that clarity is gained on this issue so that people’s minds can be put at rest.

In yesterday’s debate much was made of the appointment of doctors, in particular those appointed to the Stanger hospital. I do not wish to become embroiled in that particular argument, except to say that the principle of merit should be applied at all times.

What I do, however, wish to bring to the attention of hon members is the vexing and serious problem of the lack of doctors and medical personnel in the rural areas. When I refer to the rural areas I refer to all the rural areas in Natal and KwaZulu. This problem is not confined to the region itself. It is indeed universal. How do we persuade or motivate medical doctors and personnel to take up practices in the rural areas? This problem has become so serious that the various authorities responsible for the provision of health services have been forced to advertise overseas in order to fill the posts in the rural areas.

In his reply to yesterday’s debate the hon the MEC responsible for local government complained about the fact that there were so many players responsible for the urbanisation of the informal and squatter communities in the Greater Durban area. He said that this bedevils the whole process and that the provincial Executive Committee and administration have been pushed to the periphery of the process.

The hon member for Umhlanga also alluded to this problem and stated that the Executive Committee should be made a key player. I want to agree with that and we sympathise with the Executive Committee but the hon member’s statement also underscores and underlines the LP’s standpoints with regard to duplication, triplication and quadruplication. The hon MECs statement is an indictment of the present political system which brings about such fragmentation. That fragmentation comes about as a result of an obsession with race and colour.

In his contribution to the debate yesterday the hon member for Umhlatuzana made an earnest plea for the system of group areas permit applications to be centralised and sent back to the Ministers’ Council of the House of Assembly. I want to bring the hon member for Klip River into this particular issue. As the hon member for Umhlatuzana stated, the system of permit applications brings undue pressure on non-Blacks in his constituency. The reality is that in South Africa we have 37 000 homes standing empty in the non-Black areas while the reverse is true in the Black areas, where the backlog in housing has reached the stage where we should declare a state of emergency as far as the housing problem is concerned. The reality and the implication of the hon member’s plea is that the Group Areas Act should be repealed immediately. Let us relieve our hon MECs of this invidious and odious task—repeal this ungodly and immoral Act immediately!

And declare your own areas free settlement areas!

When I call for the repeal of the Group Areas Act it means that South Africa will be rid of such an obsession with race and colour.

We will handle our areas; if you handle yours!

In his speech the hon member for Klip River spoke about the reality of groups. Let us consider this. In a previous speech in Parliament I asked the NP to pay particular attention to what I had to say. I am saying to them again: Pay attention to what I have to say. In the 1950s and the 1960s hon members of the NP, as non-Blacks, took a decision that I should be a Coloured. I had no say in that decision and neither did the other groups. Those hon members decided what the groups should be and this is where the anomaly arises. They did not decide that there should be Jewish, Greek, Italian, French, Portuguese or Polish groups. All these have distinct cultures, traditions, customs and languages. Why then do we not have a separate Parliament for these groups?

How many are there?

These are minority groups. It does not matter how many there are. The fact is that they exist in South Africa.

There are so few that they do not count!

No, if we speak of minorities, those are clear and distinct minorities. The NP speaks of the protection of minorities. They say: Cultural and ethnic wishes must be protected. These are distinct cultural and ethnic groups. Yet, in the South African situation, they are not racially classified. The reason is patently obvious to all of us—the NP’s obsession with race and colour.

The hon member for Potgietersrus took hon members of the NP to task for having the temerity to suggest that people of colour should accept autonomy as a solution to our problems at local government level. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I would like to continue with the points that were being made by the hon the Deputy Minister in connection with group areas.

I would like to start from the legal position, namely that the Group Areas Act is still a statute of South Africa and as such should be respected by all law-abiding citizens. The discussions on group areas that we had yesterday and today were of the group areas being a parochial matter, either parochial in the parish sense in that it ties up with a very small part of the community, parochial in the sense that it is limited to one metropolitan area or parochial in the sense that it is limited to Natal. In fact, the group areas matter is a national matter.

I believe that it is in the context of the national perspective of the Group Areas Act that we should view this matter. An amendment was brought to the Group Areas Act in the Parliament of South Africa. It was not passed by the three Houses but was brought before the President’s Council and they reported on it. As was announced at the beginning of the parliamentary session this year, this amendment was cast, if one likes, into the wastepaper basket. So, today we have the Group Areas Act as it exists on the Statute book.

We have in addition a statement that was made by the then hon Acting State President in connection with the role of the Group Areas Act, the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act and the Population Registration Act as obstacles or possible obstacles in the way of future negotiations in South Africa. That is the place that the Group Areas Act has. It does not only have the role of one neighbour objecting to someone moving in next door. We have to view it from a national and an international perspective. It is the law of South Africa.

From figures we have available, we see that last year exactly seven prosecutions took place regarding contraventions of the Group Areas Act. Seven for the entire South Africa! In the previous year it was four and in the year before that, if I am correct, it was three or thereabouts.

And so for a number of years there have been virtually no prosecutions under an Act of South Africa which is legally in place. Under that Act, however, there are two forms of action which can be taken by people who wish to reside in another group area: they can apply to the requisite authority for a permit to live in such other group area. It is this responsible administration that has powers to either grant or not grant such permits. The other form of action that individuals who wish to reside in other group areas can take is to move in illegally. They can illegally occupy or illegally acquire land. What we have today in Natal in every community and constituency is the conflict that arises between people who go the permit route and may well be turned down and those who move in illegally knowing that the odds are that they will not be prosecuted. That is the conflict! When we look at the permit applications that we were informed on, we find the following: 15 Whites applied for such permits; 14 were granted thus a 93% approval rate. Coloureds applied for such permits and on the initial approval 37 were granted which is an 86% approval rate. Blacks applied and 9 were granted which is a 55% approval rate. Out of the 47 Indian applications only 14 were granted which is a 30% approval rate. On appeal an additional number of permits were granted but let us look at the number of refusals: One White was refused a residential permit, 27 Indians, 3 Coloureds and 4 Blacks.

I also want to add business numbers so that these numbers are complete. Thirty two Whites applied and 26 were approved, 146 Indians applied and 112 were approved, 26 Coloureds applied and 22 were approved, 38 Blacks applied and 33 were approved. That is round about an 80 to 85% approval rate on the business sector.

We have a difficulty! I think the hon member for Umhlatuzana—I want to speak about his speech in a moment—earnestly encapsulated it. I am not going to attack him for his speech because I believe it accurately represents what some of his voters are saying. I would not say all of his voters because there are a number of them who voted against him and who voted in favour of the concept of open areas by implication just as a number of people who voted in my constituency would support the concept of group areas. [Interjections.] So he did accurately reflect that position.

Let us have a look at some of the difficult areas that we are faced with. Let us talk about Albert Park. In Albert Park there are not hundreds, there are possibly thousands of people who are living illegally in that area. We know what has been publicly said by the hon member of Parliament for Durban Point who represents that area. He said that those people should be moved. However, to say that they should be moved and to move them are two totally different things because to force them out will have to be done in the full glare of both national and international publicity which the hon member is well aware his own Government will not be prepared to endure. The same can be said of many flats on the beach front in Durban Point.

It can also be said about Westville. I have never asked how many Indian persons who want to buy homes in the relatively affluent area of Westville and who are prepared to pay R100 000, R200 000 or even R300 000 for a home and whose permit applications have been turned down are actually living in those homes? I am told the figure is between 100 and 150 persons who are illegally living in the wealthy homes in Westville. Who is going to force them out? There are no prosecutions taking place! So whatever the hon member for Umhlatuzana is saying regarding the rigid application of the group areas permit system, or transferring it to own affairs, the fact is that it cannot be dealt with in isolation. One also has to look at the illegal situation. There are few, if any, prosecutions taking place.

The hon member for Umhlatuzana will be aware of the case that is now going through the courts in Pinetown. There again we will be looking at the legal situation as it currently applies under the Group Areas Act which makes the Govender case the test case. Currently it is accepted that if the administration, that is the people who are behind the Group Areas Act, which is the Department of Constitutional Development and Planning, is unable to ensure that there is other accommodation easily available then there is no possibility of evicting such a person.

That is not true!

I have indicated to the hon members of the NP that there is a difficult situation and I have accepted that from the point of view of the hon member for Umhlatuzana he is reflecting the feelings of a number of his voters. I also want to say that if the hon member for Umhlatuzana and the other hon members of the NP are reflecting to their voters the views as seen, if you like, by the Cabinet of South Africa, I question that because, if they are, then that is not what I am getting. I know when I go and talk to voters and when voters who want the Group Areas Act rigidly applied come and talk to me and I quote to them from the speech of the hon the Minister Mr Heunis, they are astounded and they ask what the NP situation is because there is a conflict there. There is a similar response when they say they want the local authority to take a prosecutory action and it is pointed out by the local authority that a complaint must be laid and the person who lays the complaint must be prepared to go to court and give evidence. And when I say that only seven prosecutions took place last year, they are astounded.

I agree that that is inefficiency.

It is not inefficiency! It is a clear policy decision taken at some level of Government.

We would like to find out where.

The hon member may wish to find out where. We have a very good idea! [Interjections.]

Let me say quite clearly that from the position, not only of the PFP but of the vast majority, in fact all on this side of the House, the situation is quite clear! We all want the Group Areas Act to be scrapped! [Interjections.] We want the Act to be scrapped not only for White areas but for the whole of South Africa. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, in my previous speech I dealt at length with various matters relating to hospitals. Some matters have been raised subsequently but because of the time constraints I would like to indicate that I will deal in writing with what the hon the Deputy Minister, the hon member for Springfield and the hon member for Durban North had to say about the Children’s Hospital, with what the hon member for Klip River said and also with what the hon the Deputy Minister Mr Pachai raised in relation to the ICU unit in Ladysmith. I would appreciate it if hon members will understand that I have to allocate my time now to dealing with matters that I have not yet been able to deal with.

One matter that I would like to deal with very briefly is the question of the Joint Executive Authority.

*I should merely like to mention that in its functions up to the present the Joint Executive Authority did, in the initial stages, make very practical strides in building bridges of understanding because joint decisions were taken with a sense of responsibility. One of the most important aspects is probably the fact that we, the Cabinet members of KwaZulu and the Executive Committee members of Natal gained a better understanding of one another’s mutual problems. We progressed to the point where we could speak to one another, each representing his own mandate, without having to relinquish anything. We could therefore build up better mutual understanding.

†The actual work that was done, an annual report, has been prepared and is available. I have been given to understand that it will be distributed to hon members at this meeting. If it has not yet been made available to hon members I trust that the officials will see to it that the report is made available.

Various hon members have suggested various other projects which could be undertaken as projects of the Joint Executive Authority. The hon member for Pietermaritzburg North raised the question of the development of the Tugela Basin and the possibility of creating economic development in that area. I totally support that idea as a project which the Joint Executive Authority in conjunction with our town and regional planners and other bodies could undertake. I personally believe that an important contributory factor to this would be the construction of a major road from the west to the east of the Natal Midlands linking the freeway to Eshowe, Empangeni and Richards Bay. At the moment we have a sort of delta of roads leading from the freeway to Greytown. Roads from Colenso, Estcourt, Mooi River and Pietermaritzburg all lead to Greytown. If a road could be developed through KwaZulu to Eshowe, Empangeni and Richards Bay the development of such an artery could be a major impetus to the economic development of that area. I have already raised this matter with the Director-General of National Roads and although it is not receiving high priority treatment it is being looked into.

*A matter I should like to examine in somewhat more detail is that raised yesterday by the hon member Mr Hattingh. He referred to law enforcement in which Natal, as he indicated, ought to play a somewhat more active role, particularly when it came to dealing with heavy traffic on the Natal roads. I should like to give an explanation of why it is essential. According to a CSIR study conducted in 1983 the following ratio applies in regard to the damage done to roads. Ordinary cars are responsible for approximately 1% of the damage to roads. Lorries carrying legal loads—it was found that 84% of lorries are carrying the legally permissible loads—cause 42% of the damage. The 16% of lorries not carrying the legally permissible loads—in other words, those that are overloaded—cause 57% of the damage to roads. I have calculated that the damage caused in 1983 by overloaded vehicles, if converted into 1988 figures, is R22 million in Natal alone. That is why we cannot simply ignore this. It is fundamental to the budgetary expenditure we have available and can have available for the roads in Natal. The hon member Mr Derby-Lewis also referred to that.

We do not need additional legislation. If a vehicle is detained at a weighbridge, we have the right to deny that vehicle permission to leave until its load has been adjusted to comply with the provisions of the Act. This is, in fact, done. We do not need additional legislation to do so. It is a fact that we play an active role in Natal. We also played an active role in having certain regulations amended so that we are not frustrated in the courts when it comes to dealing with these matters. This is fundamental to the whole economic management of the road construction programme in terms of which we are already cutting our activities to the bone and getting less, in real terms each year, than we normally get after provision has been made for inflation. That is why I have to endorse the standpoint that if our law-enforcement officers strictly enforce the law it is for the benefit of drivers and is done to ensure that they have better roads. It is for the benefit of the taxpayers of Natal and the rest of the country that R22 million per annum is saved in Natal and that the whole matter is dealt with in terms of correct law-enforcement procedures. I want to make an appeal to the traffic inspectorate to be conscientious and to act in the interests of the community, the taxpayers and society as a whole, but at all times they must be friendly and take the correct steps. Their actions must not give offence. They must not be “knights of the shady trees”. They must act openly, and they must be seen by the public to be doing so.

I also want to say that probably fewer than 10% of offenders are, in fact, ever brought to book. We made a survey of the situation in Natal and found, from a sample of 27 284 vehicles that were weighed, that there was a total of 7 300 that were overloaded. In Natal 27% of the vehicles were, in fact, overloaded. We found that in those cases the average overloading per axle, in cases in which overloading was the offence, was two and a half tons. The maximum overloading we had to deal with in 1988 was 14 tons on one set of axles. With the weighbridge formula, in other words the overall ratio between axles, the average was almost five tons per vehicle over a total of 847 vehicles. The maximum overloading found in a specific vehicle was 24 tons. The damage done in such a case is incalculable, and out of a sense of responsibility I must appeal to all heavy-vehicle operators to go out of their way to act within the ambit of the law. Then there would be no necessity to fear law-enforcement officers.

There is another matter I want to touch upon briefly. The hon member for Klip River referred to the speed limit of 100 km per hour. We must bear the topography of the road in mind, particularly in very mountainous areas. What must also be borne in mind is that there is a cost ratio in regard to the kind of road that is constructed. As a result of the topography, that road is planned and designed for a speed limit of 100 km per hour. The number of accidents that have already taken place on that road, and are still taking place regularly, do indicate that a speed limit of 100 km per hour is the correct one. When we say 100 km per hour, we are not referring to experienced Porsche or Mercedes drivers. This calculation has been made for average conditions. I can understand that certain drivers could become frustrated at having to drive at 100 km per hour, but for the average driver under average road conditions that road is safe at 100 km per hour, and the safety progressively decreases as the speed of 100 km per hour is exceeded. This sort of thing is not simply done to cause people to commit offences. It is done with due consideration for the essential safety measures involved.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon MEC, in the light of the fact that his turn to speak is expiring, whether he has remembered to apologise to the hon nominated member Mr Derby-Lewis?

Fortunately entertainment tax was abolished several years ago, because if it had not been, the hon member would now have had to pay entertainment tax.

We accept that as your reaction to this situation! [Interjections.]

I would like to deal with the matter of rural roads in general. The National Transport Commission in 1979 directed that a need study be done for rural roads. The findings indicated that Natal was in fact entitled to receive a considerably bigger share for road construction and the maintenance of rural roads. We are working administratively on this behind the scenes. I hope that by next year or the year after we will have succeeded in convincing the authorities of the justification to provide Natal with its equitable share of allocation in terms of the need study of the National Transport Commission.

The hon member for Vredendal who raised this issue was also concerned about this. I think we can use some of the Cape’s allocation in Natal. He would probably agree to this.

We are busy with a programme of tarring our roads which is scientifically calculated and this must be taken into consideration when dealing with the whole situation. On average we indicate that, if a road carries some 500 vehicles per day, it can be placed on the tarring programme. Unfortunately, we are in a position where some roads that carry up to 1 000 vehicles per day, have not yet been tarred. We are also anxious to provide specific funds for the upgrading of roads to serve our tourist areas. We believe roads are like the arteries of the human body—a good communication system—and that there must be a good road network throughout the province to be able to make it function economically and in every other respect satisfactorily. If there is a clot in the veins, the body suffers a thrombosis. If there is disruption to our roads because we do not have funds, we believe that our whole province will suffer thereunder. It is therefore essential that we get additional funds to do this.

*The hon member for Newcastle referred to the possible involvement of regional services councils in the management of district roads, for example. Regional services councils are bodies in which community involvement in the decision-making and determination of priorities can receive attention. I agree that regional services councils can become involved in dealing with this. Regional services councils need not undertake all the work themselves. They can appoint agents to do work on their behalf. So, in order to promote regional interests they would, in the various regions, make use of Natal’s roads department to do the work laid down by them at decision-making level. In that sense I would like to support the hon member for Newcastle’s idea.

†The hon member for Pietermaritzburg North raised the question of noise pollution on the freeway in Town Hill. This matter has been addressed and I have had numerous meetings and discussions with him, our officials and other people involved and am satisfied that this matter is receiving full attention. I give him my full assurance to see to it that this matter will continue to be addressed.

We have certain practical problems in enforcing the law. The law is insufficient since one has to be able to measure the noise in decibels and in such a way that one can attach it to a particular vehicle to be able to institute prosecution. It is an extremely difficult situation. However, I believe that pressure can be applied to the transgressors through community involvement. It is a certain type of vehicle that is mainly the culprit and, in the same way as in the United States where they had certain community projects which applied pressure on various issues, I believe such a matter can also receive further attention here.

*The hon member for Umfolozi referred to the Mtubatuba-crossing. I have the utmost sympathy with him in regard to the problem resulting from the closing of that railway crossing. That is one of the negative aspects resulting from a lack of discussion, consultation and co-ordination. He has my full support in regard to that matter. At the time I gave him my full support, and I agree that it is a matter that serves as an example of how something should not be done.

†The hon member for Mariannhill raised the question of road 468 in the Mariannhill area. I am satisfied that this matter is receiving active attention departmentally and I give him my undertaking that I will also look into this. I have already received documentation on this and the matter requires further attention.

The hon member for Cavendish spoke of a link road between Shallcross and Chatsworth. This is in the Durban Metropolitan Transport Board area and, correctly, that matter must be dealt with by the Durban Metropolitan Transport Board of which Durban is the core city.

In conclusion, may I just say that we have another escalating problem. That is the question of road safety. To quote a few statistics, from January 1988 to December 1988, 10 691 people were killed on South Africa’s roads. Over 31 000 were seriously injured. Eighty-five thousand were slightly injured. There were 702 000 vehicles, almost 2 000 per day, involved in collisions on our roads. Of the vehicles involved, 48 000 were combi-taxis.

This is increasingly a contributory factor to the number of fatalities on South Africa’s roads. In order to handle this effectively, it must be realised that there must be a central register so that each person charged with a prosecution must not always be seen as a first offender. Consequently, I believe in and give my full support to the separation of drivers’ licences from the normal identification book in the form of a plastic type card so that we can have proper records computerized and so that frequent offenders can be controlled.

Unfortunately, my time has elapsed. I appreciate the fact that I was able to participate in the discussion and I thank you.

Mr Chairman, before I get to my main address, I would like to raise some pertinent issues of which I was reminded this morning. These concern roads D433, D776 and Coul Drive in Lamercy.

Road D433 runs for a distance of 4 kilometres from Fraser Station to Fairbreeze via Greylands. This road is used by farmers and serves some 100 residents. It is also used by tourists who use the road to get to Crocodile Creek. Furthermore, at this time of the year, this road carries very heavy traffic due to the construction of a bridge on the Tongaat River.

Reports that I have received indicate that a number of vehicles have left the road due to the dust. This road needs urgent attention.

The D776 serves some 100 residents in the Emona area. This road is in a bad state of disrepair—a section of Coul Drive which falls under the jurisdiction of the Natal Provincial Administration and the other section under the Tongaat Town Board.

The part that falls under the Natal provincial administration is in a deplorable state. It has a number of potholes and is in a state of disrepair. These roads need attention.

This brings me to my main address. It is trite to say that we do not operate in a vacuum. Nevertheless, it is ironical that our best efforts can be minimized or even negated by factors beyond our control. I am referring to those areas of uncertainty which have confounded the North Coast for a number of years. These factors are the consolidation proposals for KwaZulu, the regional services council, the proposed airport at La Mercy, the revision of the regional industrial development programme, the squatting problem and the lack of housing and piped water for the rural community. In view of the desperate need for housing in the area, it is proper that I tackle this issue first.

An investigation into housing development for Indians and Coloureds by the physical planning directorate revealed that a total of 15 056 units are required to meet the backlog in the provision of Indian housing and 276 units for the Coloureds in the North Coast region, stretching from Verulam in the South to Stanger in the North. Some progress has been and is being made in Verulam, Tongaat and Stanger, which have their own local authorities. However Shakaskraal, which falls under the jurisdiction of the Development and Services Board, has been stagnant since its inception in 1978. This is the twelfth year in the existence of the board in Shakaskraal and it is difficult to imagine that in this twelve-year period not a single home has been built for the people who need homes in this beautiful sugar village.

In 1985 both Canelands and Shakaskraal embarked on housing projects. I would like to point out that Canelands, which has a health committee, successfully completed the task undertaken there and the 86 units that were built were let out last year, whereas in the case of Shakaskraal the project has not even got off the ground. I would like to know the cause of the delay.

The revelation made by the MEC about the delay in action shocked me. I am also aware that some of the instructions given to Ministers were that if a member did not belong to his party, that they were not to work in the interest of that member. If members disagreed with the Minister, the then hon Minister of Housing or the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council, he instructed the Ministers not to work in the constituencies of those members. This is one of the reasons why I crossed the floor.

It is history. Let us get on with it.

This is not history. The hon member was part and parcel of that. The hon member for Mariannhill was part and parcel of that. He was one of those who were standing us up. I can tell hon members that when the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council gave me a parcel of money in his office and asked me to deposit it, it was the hon member for Mariannhill who raised that matter and condemned his letter when we were travelling from Pelikan Park to Parliament. Today the hon member has the audacity to say that this is history, but this is how the then hon Chairman of the Ministers’ Council behaved. It was people like the hon member for Mariannhill that kept the previous Chairman of the Ministers’ Council in power for so long. For every misdemeanour that the then hon Chairman of the Ministers’ Council committed, hon members like him are equally guilty; those hon members who helped to keep him in power.

I now come to the issue of housing in Gledhow.

Let him look at his own history.

They are jointly and severally liable.

I would like to take on the hon member for Mariannhill on this. I am sitting in a session of Parliament. I would like to point out that in my life I have had a tragedy and the hon member for Mariannhill, not only on this occasion, but on several occasions, raised this issue. I was tried by a judge and a jury. If I had been sent to the gallows, I would have gone to the gallows. If I had been sent to the gas chamber, I would have gone to the gas chamber. Whatever punishment was meted out to me, I would have accepted it.

The trouble is, have you paid your carrots? That’s the question.

On the subject of carrots, I would like to point out that I was on the verge of passing a motion in the House of Delegates and I wanted to say: Let us see which hon member is not here for carrots. Let us, the Indians, give our entire salaries away for the benefit of the Indian community. Let us see who will stay and work for the community and who will not. It pains me when an hon member like that keeps on and on. I have been tried already. I was tried by a judge, but he keeps bringing it up all the time. He has many skeletons in his cupboard and there are others who were not tried, and they are the ones who must be brought to book.

I would like to raise the issue of housing in Gledhow. In Gledhow, after representations were made to the Gledhow sugar company, they were prepared to cut up the present Indian village and sell the erven to the members of the Indian community. However, they encountered certain difficulties. I would like to make an appeal to the Executive Committee of the province to try and treat this as a special case and to try and assist in helping our people to get homes in that area.

As far as Etete is concerned, the area needs urgent and immediate attention. In this area Indians and Blacks live cheek by jowl. Their quality of life needs to be upgraded. The Development and Services Board took over this area some four to five years ago, but there has been no improvement in their quality of life. I would like to know what the province has in mind for this area. At a recent meeting of the North Coast Regional Development Association I mentioned the plight of 11 families who were affected by a take-over. The company property was taken over and the residents had to move, although no accommodation was found for those families. However, discussions that followed convinced me that the RSC could provide solutions to most of the problems encountered by rural communities.

One of the most heartening facts about the RSC is the directives of the Regional Services Councils Act, which requires inter alia that in determining the priorities in connection with the appropriation of funds, the council shall give preference to the establishment, improvement and maintenance of infrastructural services and facilities in areas where the greatest need exists.

To upgrade underdeveloped communities and areas of all population groups complies with the demands of reasonableness and fairness. The two main elements to reach success in upgrading the quality of life and services are that it must be ascertained what the community wants and as many people as possible in the region must be involved. In other words, planning must be done with the people rather than for them. Planning with the people is facing reality. George Bernard Shaw once said, and I quote:

This saying is true to this day. I say this because there are over 500 restrictive laws curtailing the activities of all South Africans at Central Gov ernment level and many more at provincial and local government level. The solution to most of our problems, in my opinion, can be found in an article which appeared in the financial section of The Sunday Tribune on 2 April 1989. I quote:

[Time expired.]

Mr Chairman …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Is there not at least a limit to the number of times a certain member is allowed to inflict his views upon us? [Interjections.]

Only in the case of the NP! The situation, as I have painted it, regarding the occupation or acquisition of property by so-called “illegal persons” amongst the areas that I have already stated—and I would go so far as to state that it is amongst all our communities and constituencies—is going to lead to friction unless it is resolved in the near future. This is going to be exacerbated by the very kind of meetings such as the one held in Sherwood about 10 days ago.

In Westville, for example, we have had the creation of the Westville Residents’ Support Group. They held a public meeting which was very well attended. The aim of that organisation is to aid the people who have moved into Westville and who are under pressure from outside organisations and individuals. I have no doubt that the counter-organisation is incipiently there. We are going to have these kind of community pressures on people who have moved in—not just a White on Black pressure or a White on Indian pressure, but a very White on White pressure because of the differing political views.

The answer to this kind of question does not lie in this Chamber. It does not lie in the majority party of the House of Representatives or the majority party in the House of Delegates. It lies with the majority party in the House of Assembly. It and it alone can sort out the problems of the Group Areas Act. Let me make it quite clear what the position of the PFP is. We believe that the Group Areas Act should be scrapped. We do not believe that it offers group protection to any group. The situation is that the White group areas of South Africa do not exist as White group areas. There are already people of colour who live in them! The PFP believes—and I state this quite clearly in the letters that I am asked to write by the community services office—that the application should be viewed on a colour-blind basis. Provided that all the other aspects of the local authority’s bylaws are applied, I am more than happy to approve the application.

What is the NP’s position? We get different views from different hon members of Parliament in that party. I am not even going to quote them, because we have heard them during the past session of Parliament. We have heard different hon Ministers being quoted. I believe that the NP has an educational role to play for its own voters and for the voters of the CP in their constituencies. Maybe they need the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the hon the Minister of Finance to tell the voters in those constituencies what the NP’s approach is to the Group Areas Act. Certainly hon members representing the NP by and large are not carrying out their educational role in this province. They are not leading people forward. That is the problem that I have with the speech of the hon member for Umhlatuzana. He, in fact, represents the most backward of his voters, not the most advanced.

I represent the majority of them!

I do not believe that that is the view that MPs should take.

Maybe it is because he himself is backward! [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Is an hon member entitled to refer to another hon member as a backward member?

Order! Did the hon member for Reservoir Hills say so?

I did, sir.

Order! Will the hon member please withdraw that?

I withdraw it, sir.

Mr Chairman, I would like to turn to a subject that was voiced only on three occasions during the last two days, and that is the situation of violence in Natal. I do not think that there is any disagreement on this. All of us deplore the continued violence in Natal. We deplore the violence which has existed in the last two years, and I am certain that we all deplore the continued violence.

The hon member for Klip River made reference to various the hot spots around the world and the difficulties which communities have when living together. He might well have not talked about Beirut where there are religious differences. He could have talked about Pietermaritzburg and the surrounding area where the death toll is almost as high. This is not ethnic violence. It may partly be political violence, but it also has to do with the conditions under which people live. It also has to do with the situation of disparate authorities and people wanting to live on particular parcels of land. It also has to do with common criminality, that there are what I describe in certain circles as not Comrades, but Com-tsotsies. There are actually criminals in the disguise of political persons.

All of these situations make it imperative that a concerted—and I want to use the word that the hon member for Umhlanga used—supercouncil be brought about from the disparate authorities and from the communities themselves to resolve this problem. It may have started in Pietermaritzburg, but I do not want to use Pietermaritzburg as the only example. Let me rather say that there is violence in the greater Edendale area and it is spreading. There has been violence in Mpumalanga and the killings continue there. There has been violence in Kwandengezi in the Dassenhoek Valley and violence continues there. St Wendolin’s used to be an extremely peaceful community. Two years ago—no, even less than that—eighteen months ago violence started there. In the past year 21 people were killed. Why? For what reason?

The violence in Kwa Mashu, Inanda, has spread. We actually have to do something about that. I am going to use a phrase that was used by the hon MEC Mr Miller earlier on. We do not want it to be a question of passing the buck. It is a problem for the SAP. It is also a problem for the Government of South Africa, the governments of Natal and KwaZulu and for the communities themselves. If all of us can agree that our common approach should be to bring an end to the violence at least, I believe that we get somewhere on this issue.

I briefly want to address certain other matters that have come up in passing during the last two days, one of which is the issue of the R577 road. The hon the Deputy Minister of Population Development and I both mentioned it on Monday. This is a road which should go basically from New Germany and across the Umgeni River through Inanda Newtown, past Newlands West and Newlands East and join up with the other ring road. Both of us believe that it is urgently necessary that a rethink take place on the time table for the building of that road. It serves one of the most densely populated areas in South Africa. It is an intense, high density area with a number of communities living there. Certainly access for the Newlands East and Newlands West communities is imperative, particularly—if I may speak parochially on this occasion—as an access to the Pinetown/New Germany area which is one of the most industrialised areas in Natal. People are looking for work and work opportunities and there is a very big commercial sector there.

The hon MEC Mr Volker made certain remarks this morning regarding user charges and the importance of employers playing a particular role. I think—and he will probably have to live with it—that the Federated Chamber of Industries, or the Natal Chamber of Industries and the Natal Chamber of Commerce may find some difficulty in the words that he used.

I wish to quote him:

I would think that that—“deliberate misuse with intent”—is very strong language indeed and I hope that he in fact has evidence to show that that is correct. I believe that we have to sell the message that he was carrying, but we cannot do it by damning people. We have to sell the message that nothing comes free. There is no free lunch. At some point, somebody is going to pay. If the business community is not prepared to pay for medical schemes for its employees, unfortunately it is going to increase taxation. That is the only way, in fact, that one can sell it to business, for it is far better for a businessman to know that he is catering for his own employees through a personal link such as medical aid schemes than to pay through taxation, instead of damning business.

I want to say that I think the concept of user charges has never been sufficiently aired in the South African political scene. Particularly in the last year we have seen complaints regarding user charges of hospitals and the situation has never been, I believe, fully aired. I would appreciate knowing whether all members of Parliament here, on both sides of the House, believe that their constituents support the concept of user charges. I know, certainly, going to old age homes, it is extremely difficult to convince pensioners that paying R2 a visit is actually helping the financial situation or either themselves or of the State.

What is your alternative?

Certainly, if we are looking for an alternative, we have to look at the overall financial situation of South Africa, which is precisely where this problem lies. Unfortunately, it does not lie with the MECs at this level. Funds have been cut, not at their level, but further up at Treasury. Allocation has to be provided for there.

I am very pleased at the positive remarks that were made both by the hon MEC and particularly by the hon member for Umhlanga regarding the situation of squatters in Natal. If there is anything we should emphasise here it is that until such time as illegal informal squatter settlements get political representation, they will not get their just deserts. Unfortunately that is true. We talk about a loan request to the National Housing Commission for R55 million and only getting R15 million. With the best will in the world, until such time as the communities are adequately politically represented and can put pressure on the fiscus, they will not get the adequate financial funding they deserve. The amount for the Natal/ KwaZulu Planning Council’s proposals is R1,2 billion—I think it is a scandalous situation. I see nobody in the administration at whom we can point fingers. Whom do we point fingers at about the fact that the money from the Planning Council’s proposals has not been spent? Whom do we blame? Do we blame the Department of Development Aid? Do we blame the Treasury? Whose responsibility is it that no development has taken place?

Remarks have been made concerning pay beaches. I would like to distance myself and my party from the suggestion of the hon member for Wentworth, however tongue in cheek it may have been, that pay beaches be introduced on all Natal beaches. I think it is possible that he was saying that there should be pay beaches everywhere or pay beaches nowhere. My problem is that if one introduces pay beaches where development is taking place, it means that those who do not want to pay actually have to go where there is no development, where there are no nets and where problems could arise. We earnestly believe that the beaches between low and high watermarks as well as the sea should be open to all people of South Africa. If accessibility and development are problems, that takes place above the high watermark, which is a different issue entirely, but certainly access to the beaches should be entirely open.

How are you going to handle that if it is overcrowded?

Overcrowding is a concept, as I frequently pointed out, that has to do with developed facilities, not just with a strip of beach. The problem of the development of facilities is, I think, being answered, in that one spreads the load. The hon member for Durban Point knows very well that by development the spreading of the load in Durban has in fact already taken place and if he has a problem with it, he must take it up with the hon MEC in charge of development.

I would like to make a remark regarding pensions. I am pleased to hear from the hon MEC Mr Pierce that the backlogs have been virtually eliminated. I regret that the written answer given to me in Parliament about a week or ten days ago concerning backlogs in social pensions certainly indicated that the figure was still appreciably unacceptable. I cannot quote the Natal figure on its own, but for the whole country there was certainly a backlog of several thousand Black social pensions. I am pleased that there is no longer a backlog of a year. Three to four months is similarly unacceptable.

I want to make a point of criticism of my colleague, the hon member for Reservoir Hills. He is aware that I am going to say this. He used in passing the term of a person who could be classified as “White trash”. I want to say that I and the party both of us represent do not believe that any person of whatever colour should or could be classified as trash. I am sure that I can say that he would wish that word not to be taken seriously.

I would like to end with almost the point with which we started. The hon member for South Coast commenced this debate by saying that the key things that we in this province have to learn are empathy and tolerance. I would agree. It is that very empathy and tolerance that I believe needs to be extended far beyond this House and far beyond Parliament to the individual homes of all the people of this province, so that with empathy and tolerance they can and will live with one another.

Mr Chairman, I want to be very brief and I thank the hon Chief Whip for this opportunity.

I have been prompted to get up and speak again because of the unfortunate remarks made by the hon MEC during his reply. Yesterday the hon MEC spoke about attitudes. I suggest that he takes a lesson from his own advice. Today, unfortunately, without any provocation, he saw it fit to cast slurs on the House of Delegates. It seems to be common fashion these days to go House of Delegates-bashing. I think it is most regrettable.

Before the hon MEC said what he did, he should have done the honourable thing by coming to me and asking me why the hon Ministers were not present. I would have given him the answer. I am the Chief Whip of the party. Let me make it very clearly known that the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture was here. Was the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing of the House of Assembly present here? No. The hon the Deputy Minister of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture was also present here. They had to leave this Chamber because they have to attend Cabinet Committee meetings. That being the situation, I ask the hon MEC not to go and make statements as he did. After all, he should show some respect to Ministers of State. One can have political differences, but he should not have questioned their morality and their presence or otherwise here. He should have asked me. I would have given him the answer.

I want to continue and explain that the House of Delegates has 44 members as it stands. Members have to be spread between the four provinces. Apart from that, the hon Ministers have to conduct their ministerial duties. We do not have the luxury of some 160 members of Parliament as the House of Assembly does. The House of Representatives also has double the number we have. I am surprised that the hon MEC could not have done his homework before making this statement. I trust that he is now wiser after I have said this, unless it is desirable to criticise only the absence of House of Delegates Ministers at the meeting today, and not that of House of Assembly Ministers.

I want to say quite categorically that many of the issues raised here the hon MECs were incapable of answering, because it fell outside their ambit. Issues such as the group areas issue and others affected hon Cabinet Ministers directly. I know that the MECs are not in a position to answer. If greater communication and understanding was the message the hon MEC tried to give us, I suggest that the House of Assembly Ministers would have played a more significant role by listening to what we had to say, because the hon MECs are not in a position to deal with those particular queries.

It is unfortunate that I had to respond to this but I have done this to clear the air. It would be unfortunate if this kind of situation recurs. Rather than attacking and casting these slurs I would like the hon MEC—who is enthusiastic and does a lot of work but who unfortunately unwittingly makes these remarks on occasion—to come to Stanger.

There are problems there. We have got a situation where 600 voters who contribute less than 20% of the rates control 10 000 voters who contribute 80% of the rates. That kind of situation should be resolved if we want to remove conflict in South Africa. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, on behalf of the administration I fully accept, in reply to the hon member who has just spoken, that from time to time hon Ministers are called away to Cabinet Committee meetings. I think I can plead for some understanding of the point of view of the Executive Committee.

For two days in the year we have the opportunity to explain our actions and to present the manner in which we spend R1,5 billion on behalf of the people of the province. We subject ourselves to criticism—legitimate and otherwise—and I think it can be understood that there is a feeling of regret if during those days we have to address empty benches.

One understands that people in the executive positions of Ministers have to be away from time to time. However, I would request, if the hon whips have any control over it, that Cabinet Committee meetings be held on days other than those two days in the year.

Point taken. That is a very good point!

There are one or two points that I will deal with before I attempt to reply to the debate in general.

Firstly, the question of salaries relating to conservation officers in the employ of the Natal Parks Board was raised. We have made representations to the Commission for Administration for improvements and we will continue to do so. There have been some improvements and we are fully aware of the need to have salaries paid which make those important officers happy.

Then there is the question of aircraft. We do use aircraft but we prefer to hire them from the private sector. We think it is cheaper—and more in accordance with the Government’s policy of privatisation—than purchasing aircraft for ourselves.

I was then asked to comment on the question of a Black MEC. We—the Executive Committee in so far as it lies within our sphere—are alive to the need for such a person and of course the matter is the subject of attention at ministerial level at the present time.

It is not a simplistic matter to make such an appointment. The position in Natal is a little different from elsewhere. There are pressures and currents here which are not necessarily found in the other provinces and all these have to be taken into consideration.

Hon members raised the question of violence in the townships as well as that of Black urbanisation and squatters. The two go together. Squatters, urbanisation and violence are part of one syndrome, if I may put it that way. Squatters are merely an aspect of urbanisation. Violence takes place in those areas where there is Black urbanisation.

I can say that there is close contact between myself and those responsible for the security forces both in the Police and in the military. There is also contact between the Executive Committee as a whole and those authorities.

I think I can say that we are reasonably well informed as to where the violence is; as to why it is taking place in so far as it is at all clearly ascertainable, and as to the protagonists on each side of the violent situation which, as I am sure hon members know, varies from place to place.

It is in my view and according to the information available to me, largely—not entirely but largely—a struggle for power in local areas. There is a heavy overlay as a result of poverty and as a result of the criminal element which the hon member for Pinetown mentioned. It is basically a struggle for power and there is no doubt at all that it as well as the question of urbanisation, will require the close attention both of ourselves and of those at central Government level.

I was interested in the interplay of discussion and debate at the political level; I was interested in the clash of ideas of what is best for South Africa. I respect any man whose political views are seriously and sincerely held and whose views are as a result of intellectual conviction as opposed to merely selfish and self-seeking motivation. I respect any man whose views are thus held.

There are three currents which I have heard in this House. In the broad field there are those who stand for, and who believe in, universal suffrage within a unitary state. There are those who believe in various forms of powersharing and there are those who believe as I understand it, in partition.

What has to be given consideration is firstly whether any of these solutions will further the norms and standards which I believe the majority in this House believe in; secondly whether the particular recipe is practically achievable within our lifetime. That is the ultimate test as to which will prevail.

I am not really concerned, although it interests me, with the interplay between the political parties in any particular chamber. We have heard the interplay in the House of Assembly, we have an interplay in the House of Delegates and some interplay in the House of Representatives. I am very interested in the interplay between the Houses because that is the phase of development that we have reached at the present time—interplay between the Houses. It was clearly illustrated in sharp focus on the question of group areas.

There is the one viewpoint which is perfectly understandable. It is part of our history that there are those who see the home, school and church as a spatial environment within which people desire security. There are those who see the measures which have been devised to meet that need—and it is a legitimate need—as a barrier to progress and as derogatory of the dignity of the individual. Seen in the context of our history it is again a perfectly legitimate viewpoint.

Listening to the debate it might seem that those views are irreconcilable. I do not believe they are. Twenty years ago the fact that this Chamber would be sitting with the people present who are present, was seen as an impossible goal. It has been achieved.

I believe within five years the gap between the two points of view, both sincerely held by men of serious conviction, will possibly have been bridged. A reconciliation will have taken place.

We are dealing with a Budget, and I am considered the Minister of Finance of this province, yet the debate that we have been listening to has largely been along the lines that we need this but the money is not available and we need that but the money is not available. The hon member for Pinetown summed it up when he asked how to pinpoint the man who was responsible for the lack of funds. I think that really pointed to the key question and I shall try to answer it.

I make the prediction that within five years—it is just around the corner if it is not here already—the debate that will take place will not be between the elements of this Chamber, which after all represent the First World component of our population, which is two million people in this province. In five years time the debate will be between the First and the Third World elements of our population—between the two million and the six million. That is the debate that will take place. We will not be remiss if we cease looking backwards and motivating our debates today on what went before, but look ahead to what will be in five years’ time.

Money is the key to it all but one cannot tax people further within the existing tax base. We are already among the most highly taxed people in the world. The MECs would have to find new sources of income in five years’ time—they will probably be some of the MECs sitting here now. We shall have to find new sources of income if we are to meet the needs that the Natal Provincial Administration is to supply the people with in five years’ time. There is only one place where that can be found, namely by making taxpayers of the Third World component of our population. They themselves will then have to generate the funds upon which they will pay taxes.

For a hundred years the First World component has had a surplus with which to provide the services required by the Third World component of our population. However, it has been catching up slowly and we have reached the position today where there is no longer a surplus which the First World component can use in order to supply the services that the Third World component needs.

An hon member who is not here at the moment said that the whole of Natal should be declared a free settlement area. I listened to that and I thought: I wonder if he knows what he is saying. Half of Natal could be declared a free settlement area tomorrow, the other half is subject to tribal occupation and is communally-owned land. I would like someone to tell me who is going to persuade that component to have its area declared a free settlement area. The problem is that the one half of Natal has a First World economy, a First World political system and the infrastructure of a First World state generating the funds required by a First World state. Right alongside it, in the other half of Natal, there is a Third World community where the ability to generate funds, except through State-owned institutions, is virtually non-existent.

The creation of wealth in that Third World component hardly exists. Very little comes out, while millions are poured in. That is the problem we have to meet. I do not believe our major priority is the solution of a political problem. It is the solution of an economic problem. So often one finds as one gets older that economics ultimately rules the situation and brings about change, even in places like the USSR. This is the problem. One has to be able to create a situation in the Third World part of Natal and in South Africa where capital can be generated and where there is an appreciation for the private ownership of land. Only then can we obtain the wherewithal to provide the services that we require.

Hon members should look at the Budget they have just been considering. It consists of R1,5 billion, roughly half of which is required for health services. Hon members should look at the State Budget they considered in Cape Town. What are the three main points of expenditure? They are health, education and security.

Security is largely a matter to be considered when we in the southern tip of Africa settle our relationships with the outside world. Progress is being made there. However, when it comes to education and health, it eats up most of what the taxpayer pays and comes largely from the First World component. Therefore I think if we can address that problem there will be tremendous hope for the future.

The debate here was most encouraging. There were sharp differences of opinion but there was no enmity. I think that when one considers the progress that has been made in the short time we have met each other in this Chamber, there is tremendous hope for the future.

If I may, I would like to end by reiterating the one plea that I began with. Firstly, we should look forward and not backwards, because the future is just around the corner. Secondly, when trying to find a political solution we should give our attention to the need to bring about a new state of affairs in the area occupied by the Third World component of our people. Their ability to generate wealth is crucial, because without that we have no chance whatever of meeting the requirements of that population.

Hear, hear!

Order! On that note we come to the conclusion of this debate. Before we rise I want to express gratitude and thanks to the hon Administrator, the Executive Committee and the Provincial Administration for making our two days in this garden province very comfortable. I want to thank every hon member of the Committee and the secretariat staff for their contributions to the debate and otherwise. It was a real pleasure presiding over the business in this Chamber on behalf of this Committee.

Debate concluded.

The Committee rose at 13h10.

Mr Chairman, to begin with, allow me just to convey a personal message to the Administrator of the Transvaal, Mr Hough, with whom I have a very long-standing personal association. In the political sphere, too, he and I together represented Pietersburg for many years, when we still belonged to the same political party. Since then our paths have parted, politically speaking. [Interjections.] Fortunately, as hon members all know, I can say that the constituency of Pietersburg chose to follow my political direction. [Interjections.]

Nevertheless, since in his present capacity the hon the Administrator is now outside politics, we wish him everything of the best in his great task. To Mr Fanie Schoeman, too, who is now handing over the reins of office, we convey our best wishes for the road ahead.

I have just one brief remark to make about what he had to say yesterday in connection with regional services councils. In fact, he expressed his astonishment at the fact that the CP took political decisions, as it were, in the regional services councils.

I was not astonished; I merely stated it!

Oh, the hon MEC only stated it? I think it is a fact. It is true, and it has come to stay. I think it was also Mr Van Zyl—another MEC—who drew up very definite guidelines for the NP, and who in fact foresaw that it was inevitable that politics would now also be conducted at the third level of government. Indeed, he stated as much in those documents of his. Those statements were not put there by the CP. The devolution of power was introduced there by the governing party, and I think that in future we shall have to accept that politics will be conducted at the third level of government.

As recently as last year we were informed by the Government that hospital services in the Transvaal, which have to make provision for a population comprising 54% of the country’s total population, received only 37% of the Budget to meet all those needs. If I remember correctly, that was the argument. Accordingly I should like to know from the hon MEC Mr Kirstein whether this situation which obtained last year has been rectified in the current financial year, and whether the available provincial hospital accommodation has been fully commissioned. The shortage of funds for provincial hospital services is undoubtedly giving rise to grave problems. The Transvaal Provincial Administration is surely fully aware of that.

In his address yesterday the hon the Administrator said, inter alia, and I quote:

I think, of course, that when one takes inflation into account, as well as the normal population growth, this means that in the case of hospital services we will in effect be worse off this year than we were last year. At a large regional hospital such as that in region E, at Pietersburg, there has indeed been a dramatic decline recently in the number of available beds. This creates particular problems with regard to the demand in that specific region.

Pietersburg itself, for example, has grown. While in 1974 its population was approximately 16 000, the latest figures available reflect a population of 33 500, and against this background there are now fewer beds available than there were some time ago. I asked the hon MEC a question with regard to the number of available beds and wards. I also asked whether hospital wards had also been closed in the Transvaal. The answer was that 47 wards in provincial hospitals had indeed been closed, chiefly due to staff shortages and limited funds.

This situation—that of a shortage of trained nursing staff, aggravated by the abolition of overtime pay for nurses—which in turn imposes a heavier workload on the remaining nursing staff, necessarily creates irritating problems for everyone involved in the supply of medical services. Let me mention a few examples. As recently as December last year it was still the case that the four gynaecologists in Pietersburg had a total of only 30 beds among them, and all their patients were in one ward, together with the female patients of the other medical disciplines—a totally unacceptable situation!

Anaesthetists are coming up against increasing difficulties. The principle of prehydration can no longer be maintained. Premedication is often omitted, while post-operative analgesics are sometimes not administered, as in one case that came to my notice—the case of a 30-year-old woman who had to lie for fourteen hours after a total hip replacement without any painkillers whatsoever.

Medico-legal actions can certainly result from such incidents, and this can only be damaging to the province and the medical profession. I regard it as an urgent necessity that the province take preventive action in this regard, that it considers the service package offered to nurses, that it takes another look at the issue of overtime pay, and that it even considers the possibility of part-time nurses—married nurses who are still able to serve on a part-time basis.

Another extremely serious and detrimental situation arising out of this is the decline in the quality of the training of medical students in South Africa. The shortage of money means that aging equipment cannot even be replaced, not to speak of the more modern, refined apparatus, as the hon member for Parktown rightly pointed out here yesterday.

Prof André Coetzee, for example, writes in a memorandum which appeared in the SA Medical Journal in the first week of March this year:

He goes on to say that the First World component of the country, that makes the biggest contribution to the State coffers, ought to be entitled to First World gynaecological knowledge and service. Academic hospitals ought to serve as tertiary reference centres for other provincial and private hospitals, and not as service hospitals. Let me quote just this one paragraph from that article which appeared in the Medical Journal of 4 March this year:

In the 23 February edition of Die Burger Prof De Kock, head of the department of urology at the Tygerberg Hospital, is quoted as saying the following in an article in the periodical Hospitaalforum:

That is the situation that prevails today. I asked a question in this regard, too, of the hon MEC. I wanted to know whether apparatus was available at private hospitals which was not available at provincial hospitals. The answer was that this is indeed the case. Magnetic resonance and lithotripsy units are available at certain private institutions. I want to say to hon members that at present there are at least six of these available in South Africa—all of them, of course, at private hospitals. [Interjections.]

The financial problems could be solved if this country were to be run as it ought to be. [Interjections.] This is an unacceptable situation, and the financial mess this country is in has been caused by this Government. [Interjections.] No, no-one else must take the blame for that. [Interjections.]

Not even in Boksburg?

It is also a serious charge against the authorities, whose task it is to ensure that the high standard of medical services in South Africa is maintained and improved.

Mr Chairman, I want to turn to a second very serious matter for the voters of South Africa. The situation at present is that the MECs have no accountability to the voters of South Africa. I want to address my remarks in particular to the MEC in charge of hospital services, Mr Kirstein, formerly the representative for Delmas. I wonder whether he would have permitted these things had he been compelled to go back to the voters of Delmas, look them in the eye and tell them that this was the situation which he, as MEC responsible for hospitals, permitted in South Africa. [Interjections.]

I refer to the degree of integration that is openly being permitted in hospital services in the Transvaal.

What is wrong with that?

What is wrong with that? [Interjections.] Let me put it this way. My voters in Pietersburg, and the vast majority of voters in the Transvaal and in the rest of South Africa—he will see that in the next election—regard it as an unacceptable situation. [Interjections.] It is a totally unacceptable situation!

It is your policy that is unacceptable!

We can test that at the ballot box. We can find out at the ballot box whether that policy is unacceptable. [Interjections.] I can assure the Committee that the municipal elections in the Transvaal have al ready furnished proof that the majority of voters support this policy. [Interjections.]

In Boksburg as well? [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I asked the hon MEC in how many wards in White provincial hospitals non-White sisters were serving and were in control of such wards. The answer is five. I should also like to know at what hospitals this is the case. Personally I am aware that in at least one ward at the H F Verwoerd hospital—in the terminal unit, where there are patients who are totally paralysed, and therefore, as far as nursing is concerned, have to rely on a nurse for even their most intimate needs—non-White nurses are employed. I simply cannot understand that people of other population groups should have to handle that situation. [Interjections.]

This brings me to the second question that I asked. I just wish to point this out here. I wanted to know in how many wards at non-White provincial hospitals White nurses were serving and were in control of such wards. In this case the answer is three. Now, I simply cannot see why this should be the situation. The situation as far as nurses is concerned is such that we need not allow a situation of this nature to arise. [Interjections.]

My third question concerned the number of wards in White provincial hospitals in which non-White nurses were serving. In this instance the figure is 131. In the fourth place, I asked what facilities are used for all population groups. The answer is cardiothoracic surgery and radiotherapy, neurosurgery and so on, as well as physiotherapy, radiology, pharmaceutical and nutritional services. Nevertheless there is one that is not mentioned. In addition, there are facilities for outpatients which are utilised for more than one population group.

Whatever the case, it is quite clear that in the Transvaal, on a more limited scale than, say, in the Cape, the provincial authorities are engaged in a gradual process of integration in order to arrive, eventually, at its totally integrated society, in which all wards and the entire nursing corps will be opened up for all population groups—for everyone, just as is the case in the political sphere in South Africa. [Interjections.]

Finally, I just want to ask why the authorities are now doing this gradually and on a limited scale, while a senior hon member, the hon member for Langlaagte, openly and clearly stated in this Committee yesterday that he was in favour of the abolition of the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act.

Of course I am in favour of that!

He is in favour of it. Go and tell the voters that tomorrow. [Interjections.] Let the Government state openly and frankly, in the House of Assembly and in the struggle for the support of the voters at large, where they are taking them. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, yesterday I spoke about the hospital board and the hospital’s problems. Before I continue I should like to invite the hon the Administrator and the MEC entrusted with hospital affairs to visit the Coronation Hospital because, although I am going to give them another long list of complaints and problems this morning, they will only know what is going on there after they have been there themselves.

Furthermore I want to tell the hon members for Edenvale and Germiston that the hospital board has no powers. The board has no powers and cannot take decisions. They merely advise the superintendent and he must act on the advice. I do not think he would insult his employer by telling him what is wrong at the hospital. After all he was appointed by the Administrator and the latter is his employer. The hospital board is supposed to make four inspections per year and if the MEC does not know about this or did not get the reports, it is not the hospital board’s fault. It is not the hospital board’s job to hand the reports to him.

I support many of the statements made by the previous hon speaker, except those statements he made about separate facilities and matters of that kind.

I will settle his hash!

The problem does not lie with him, but with those hon members. They have the power in their hands. They must therefore not shift their problem onto someone else. [Interjections.]

The hon member said that we must all have separate hospitals and other separate facilities. That is not the problem. If we move in that direction there will be far more problems. Far more facilities would have to be established for other people than would otherwise be the case, and this would cost a great deal more.

I want to come back to the suggestion I made, namely that the Johannesburg General Hospital and the J G Strijdom Hospital, are both virtually empty, should be amalgamated so that one hospital can be completely empty. I can give hon members the assurance that this hospital would be well utilised by the other race groups.

These people who want separate facilities such as separate hospitals and things of that kind must realise that apartheid is a luxury and that they will have to pay for it. They must go to private hospitals where they can put up Whites Only signs. If one wants to live in luxury one must pay for it.

I want to come back to hospitals. The casualty ward at the Coronation Hospital—I spoke about this last year too—is in a pathetic state. It is overcrowded and there is absolute chaos. There is no privacy for the patients and doctors. There are only small rooms in which the doctors must work. Rooms are subdivided by means of plywood partitions. The sisters on duty do not have offices to work in and have to carry out their duties in an open area.

The same applies to the polio clinic. There is absolute chaos. When one enters a doctor’s consulting room, it is chaotic. A prisoner has more room in which to move than the doctors who must examine patients.

I walked through to the antenatal section. There is a large waiting room in which the women must undress. The doors are open and men are walking up and down in the corridors outside. There is no control. Two patients are examined together in one room.

As far as files are concerned, the files containing the medical history of patients are left lying around in the corridors. Anyone can draw a file if he has the patient’s number. The information, which is supposed to be confidential, can easily be taken, stolen or destroyed. Many things can happen to those files.

Last year it was said that clinics were going to be built at Eldorado Park and Ennerdale. This is a good thing and I welcome it but the question is when this is going to happen. I know there is no money, but a plan must be made to find the money. However, I want to tell hon members that we are going to have far more problems if those clinics are built. The hospital will be far fuller than it is now, because people will be able to get to a clinic more quickly and will then be referred to the hospital where they must receive special services or must even be admitted.

Must they lie there dying!

Lie there dying? Where must they do that? The hon members never listen. That is why they move so slowly. I think there are many hon members of the NP who are more right-wing than the CP. That is why everything is at a standstill. [Interjections.]

It is high time they took over so that you can find out what you are talking about!

You must also come along because you are already very verkramp! [Interjections.]

Order! The words you and your may not be used here. There are hon members in this place. The hon member may proceed.

Mr Chairman, that hon member must keep quiet so that I can finish saying what I want to say because I live in the area and I serve on the hospital board and we have no powers. It was that hon member who had so much to say yesterday and asked me why I did not do this and I did not do that! I want to tell that hon member that the superintendent appointed to the hospital to represent our interests is appointed by the hon the Administrator’s office and he therefore listens to his employer and not to us. He has a responsibility to his employer, not to us! That is why that hospital is in that state, because there is always a White man in control who must decide for non-Whites. Whether or not something is good enough for a non-White, he must simply put up with it. That is our problem in this country.

May he not be a White?

I am not saying he may not be a White. If he is a White, he must care about the people he is serving.

That is an accusation against the superintendent.

He is new. I am talking about the men who worked there before the new superintendent. The new man has not even been appointed.

Are you harping on the past?

Where in the past? The hon members are far too obsessed with the past! That is their trouble. [Interjections.] The reason why we have a shortage … [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, in my opinion the hon member for Newclare made the same basic mistake as the hon member for Pietersburg made. In a very simplistic way they are shifting the responsibility for everything that goes wrong onto the Government and its so-called system of apartheid. [Interjections.]

Order! I hear the voice of the hon member for Klipspruit West very clearly and far too often. The hon member must please restrict his interjections. The hon member for Sunnyside may proceed.

Thank you, Mr Chairman. Perhaps we should tell one another that we are trying to arrive at the point where we do not indulge in simplistic sloganeering, but thoroughly study a matter we want to present. Yesterday the hon MECs explained what was being done to make progress in the direction advocated by the hon member for Newclare so that some of their people could also be appointed to responsible positions. If I understood them correctly, there is absolutely nothing preventing this. It is not fair to distort this. It is a very simplistic point of departure.

Mr Chairman, allow me to return briefly to the hon member for Pietersburg. He also made a few simplistic statements which he hung around the neck of the Government. He said inter alia that the financial problems existing in South Africa were the fault of the Government. If I look at the examples of areas under their control, I shudder to think what the CP would do to South Africa if the day were to dawn when they took over the country’s Government—which he can rest assured will not happen. If they handle the Government and the country’s money and finances in the way they have done in those places where they have taken over the local government, the end of South Africa is nigh.

Your end is nigh!

The hon member for Pietersburg also referred to regional services councils, to which I shall return in a moment. Allow me to congratulate the hon the Administrator on his appointment and wish him everything of the best. I took another look at his speech and noticed one thing in particular. This was the emphasis which was placed on the effective utilisation of funds in the administration of the province. On behalf of the NP I want to congratulate the Executive Committee most sincerely and thank them for succeeding in submitting such a good document to us in these difficult circumstances. I wish them everything of the best in the implementation of what they have submitted to us, because I know that this province, the Transvaal, will then fare extremely well.

I want to mention only one example. As regards the function evaluation system it is remarkable that a reduction of 64% could be achieved. This attests to carefully considered planning. Before I get back to regional services councils I should like to pay tribute to Mr Fanie Schoeman who is now retiring as an MEC. Yesterday we listened to him again and were impressed by how conversant he was with and how dedicated he was to the cause of regional services councils. We are sorry that he is going to leave us, but I want to wish him everything of the best and thank him most sincerely. It will rightly go down in history that he laid the foundation for regional services councils, which in my opinion is a success story.

In November 1986 a start was made with negotiations on regional services councils and the last of these began functioning on 23 February 1988. Every piece of land in the Transvaal at present falls under a regional services council. This is a phenomenal achievement and I want to congratulate all the relevant officials, MECs and Administrator involved. This could only be achieved with the dedication and zeal they displayed. With regard to regional services councils, like many other matters, so many spectres were conjured up that I am grateful to be able to say today that not one of those scare-mongering stories came to anything.

It was said for example that this was being introduced to rob local authorities of their unique functions and would systematically engulf them. This obviously did not happen, because the fact of the matter is that regional services councils are constituted from the independent local authorities that can make inputs in such a regional services council and can influence the decisions. They actually take the decisions of regional services councils. This therefore does not replace local authorities at all.

A second allegation was that owing to the consensus which had to be reached, regional services councils could not work because there would be constant conflicts and deadlocks. It is wonderful to be able to say this morning that as far as I know and as far as I could ascertain from enquiries—Mr Schoeman can tell me whether I am right—there has not yet been a single appeal owing to a deadlock. This proves that the concept of consensus, which forms the foundation of the entire reform idea, can work when the parties involved are serious about allowing it to work. They must not try to make politics out of the regional services councils as the CP members have done and say that the day they come into power this will be one of the first things they will destroy. I want to know from them how they are going to explain the following to their voters.

Let us look at the budgets for the regional services councils. For those in Pretoria R30 million has been voted for services to Whites and R39 million for Blacks; for the Northern Transvaal R3,3 million for the Whites; and for development projects in the Highveld area R8,1. Millions of rands are therefore being generated in this way to spend on projects which are also in the interests of the voters they represent. How are they going to explain to those voters that they will have to get by without those projects, financed from these funds, if the regional services councils—which are a success—are abolished by them? Sometimes it seems to me as if those hon members negatively try to destroy everything which is positive. If this is the course we have to adopt in this country it will be a tragedy for our country.

Your course is a failure.

Their course will be a failure. That is quite right. I want to come back to a point the hon member for Carletonville made, namely that they are already turning back the clock. This proves what I have just said. The fact of the matter is that the CP is not interested in a better future for South Africa. They can only try to improve on the past. We in the NP are interested in a better South Africa and co-operation with all the people who live here in order eventually to achieve a better future for the country and not a better past.

Mr Chairman, today I should like to continue with the problems I created yesterday … [Interjections.] Let them enjoy it.

I cannot but react to a speech made here today made by the hon member for Pietersburg. As a practising doctor I should like to apologise to hon members, the public of South Africa and all the patients for the blatant and unacceptable racism he, as a doctor, expressed here. [Interjections.] I am ashamed of him, and I want to tell him that he will not be supported by any section of the medical profession in South Africa, except perhaps by a few unsuccessful practitioners.

A few years ago, when I was still involved in the medical profession on a full-time basis, an operation was performed on a person who lived in Warmbaths of all places. I know who he is and can give hon members his name. A few weeks after the operation—the hon member is quite right that at that stage we had already eliminated apartheid at Groote Schuur Hospital for very definite reasons—I asked him how he felt when he woke up after the operation and was attended to by nurses of colour. His answer to me was very clear. He said: “Doctor it did not feel very nice, but when I found out what a wonderful nurse she was and with what gentleness, delicacy and dedication she treated her patients, I prayed that whenever I was in need of a nurse she, the non-White, would come to me and not the White.”

Hear, hear!

This is what happens in practice. Now I want to tell the hon member that I …

Who believes you?

Mr Chairman, that hon member should not talk about honesty. I would thank him for not taking my word for it, because I would definitely appreciate it if he believed nothing I said. I would feel better and it would make my life easier. [Interjections.] The choice is his. I believe him because I know he is a racist. I believe what he says because he is an out-and-out racist.

I work in a private hospital. Patients of all races are admitted to the hospital. The staff who care for the patients are multiracial. The best theatre sisters are Black theatre sisters. Without them we could not function. The staff in the intensive care section is multiracial and we work together on patients of any race. What happens? Our patients get better. We do this in the best interests of the patient. I cannot accept that that hon member can speak in such a derogatory manner about a health service which must be provided on a racial basis.

I want to ask him something today. He complains about nurses who nurse people of colour. If today in South Africa we were not able to make use of non-White nurses in our White hospitals and private hospitals, his patients would not have nurses. There are not enough White nurses today to look after them.

Why not?

The reason is apartheid. There is not enough training for Whites and non-Whites today as a result of the cost of separate facilities. Whatever the reason may be I want to ask him whether he has been in a home for the aged.

Of course I have.

Who nurses them there—Whites or non-Whites? Is the hon member now saying there should only be Whites there as well? Is he saying that his White colleagues should only treat White patients, the Black doctors only Black patients and the Coloured doctors only Coloured patients? That is quite ridiculous! It is not only ridiculous, but it flies in the face of all the ethical principles of a profession he and I should be true to. I completely reject what he said here today. The entire medical service of South Africa rejects him. He will not find any support for his ideas. [Interjections.] I have enough problems with the NP’s principles, but I ask him to go and find out from his own medical association in the Northern Transvaal whether they agree with him that there should be separate facilities and separate nursing in the medical profession. He should go and ask the White general practitioners in Pietersburg whether they want to treat only White patients.

Let’s go there together.

I shall do so with the greatest of pleasure. I accept his invitation.

Mr Chairman, I should now like to continue. As it is there is not enough money in South Africa to cover medical needs. The hon member is complaining that there is not enough money for nurses’ salaries. If he believes that one should create separate facilities and provide separate equipment for every White hospital, because even now he is complaining that there is not enough equipment in the country, does he think there will be enough money to provide the same facilities at hospitals for people of colour? Would he in his racist Utopia be satisfied if the medical treatment for people of colour were not as good as that for the Whites—if it were an inferior form of treatment? Is this what he is proposing? If this is not what he proposes, he must tell me where he is going to get the hospitals, the nurses and the doctors. He is living in a dream-world. The medical profession rejects racism. He does not have any support in the medical profession. Nor does he have any support among the Whites of South Africa.

I now want to tell him that I also foresee a problem on the other side. If one examines the NP’s policy, as clarified in a reply to a question put by the hon member for Pietersburg about what facilities were only for Whites and what facilities could be used by everyone, the NP shows that it too agrees with me that apartheid is too expensive and that one cannot apply apartheid to medical facilities. The question was whether any facilities which fell under the provincial authority of the Transvaal had been made available to other races and, if so, what facilities and at what category of hospitals? The answer is that only those highly specialised facilities, which because of their cost or the scarcity of specialised manpower cannot be duplicated in a particular area, have been made available to other races. What does this mean? It means that one can no longer afford apartheid because it is becoming too expensive in monetary and manpower terms. Let us take the matter further. The NP admits that apartheid is too expensive when it comes to the highly specialised disciplines such as heart surgery and transplants.

Do you have a problem with that?

No, I agree. However, everyone agrees that health in general is too expensive for South Africa. We can no longer afford it. Are the costs, then, only too high when we are talking about specialist services, or are the costs also too high in the hospital wards? You see, apartheid in the hospital wards is based on shifting people of different races around in the wards. This is all that is done. It is said that the patients can use the same equipment if, for example, they undergo a heart transplant, but heaven help us if the Whites, the Coloureds and the Blacks are not accommodated in different wards. This is the only place where there is still apartheid. As it is one cannot afford medical services and equipment Are there going to be separate hospitals in the areas that have been opened up to all races? The MEC must tell me for what reason they allow apartheid in hospitals, if not because it forms part of the National Party’s racist view of separating the groups of South Africa and, by so doing retaining that political aspect in the party’s policy.

Mr Chairman, permit me to share certain thoughts concerning Vote No 7, Community Services, with hon members. I want to draw attention mainly to own affairs resorts, because that is what it is all about these days—apartheid.

That is not true!

Of course! I am one of the few privileged people in South Africa because I am a member of Parliament. Despite that I am deeply disturbed at times. I am a deeply disturbed South African. It frustrates me to think of the recreation resorts that are reserved only for Whites. [Interjections.]

We have no answer for our vengeful children who are being forced to live in this highly sensitive atmosphere as oppressed people. Our children want to know whether we are going to continue without giving them positive answers. They are South Africans, but they cannot share in the things their White compatriots experience daily. They ask us every day whether South Africa is really changing. It is difficult to give them a positive answer.

Yet recreation resorts are reserved only for Whites, and these days it is a case of own affairs resorts.

It is a disgrace!

A typical example can be found in my constituency of Christiana at the Rob Ferreira resort to which I, as a member of Parliament, may not gain admission. What a disgrace!

This argument must not be regarded as a superficial one. It is a fact that facilities for people of colour in the Transvaal can be counted on the fingers of one hand. I challenge any member of the NP or any MEC to tell me that is not true. It is the truth. Can we allow ourselves still to be saddled with separate facilities at this time?

South Africa cannot shy away from the necessity of bringing about harmony among our people and with the world around us. A telling example is the SWA/Namibia peace agreement that is still being implemented. We cannot speak highly enough of the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs and his team for those decisive attempts to place South Africa on the world map once again and for saving us from isolation and rejection. White South Africa itself must end the struggle it has created for itself. They must realise that no Black man had any part in placing apartheid on the Statute Book. No Black man had any part in planning White domination. No Black man wants to be held responsible for what White South Africa has done to them. It is bitter to have to struggle with that daily.

History will have to tell a tale which will make feelings run high. I remember so clearly the musical, District Six, in which old Pang sang a song about “The law, The law; This bloody law”. That character sang about the frustration of being Black and of arriving at places where there were “Whites only” signs. Can we still permit that in these times?

A big fuss has been made about the parks and other facilities that are being closed by the CP-controlled town councils. That is in the news these days. Boycott actions are being launched, because our human dignity is being assailed in an abominable way. It is an insult to be a South African and especially to be Black.

A further relaxation in the tension in our ranks is like manna from heaven at this time. The answer to the problems is simply to abolish those unchristian Acts, such as the Group Areas Act and the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act. It is those Acts that make consensus difficult for us. It is those Acts that make enemies of true patriots. It is those Acts that awaken thoughts of atrocities in our minds. Only once those Acts have been abolished, can we have true multiracialism in South Africa. Only then will we in the LP be able to say that the attempts that are being made can be regarded as meaningful and that involvement is contributing to progress with regard to peace and justice in South Africa. Only then will the frivolous action of the residents of Mayfair West and Windmill Park rightly be regarded as selfish and ridiculous, and only then will South Africa be able to compete on an equal footing with other countries in the world markets.

It is not quite that simple. Basically I agree with you, but it is not quite that simple.

It is that simple. If those Acts were submitted to the joint committee tomorrow, the hon member would see what consensus we would achieve.

What would happen abroad? [Interjections.]

They would do away with sanctions. Margaret Thatcher is welcome to come, but as long as apartheid is on South Africa’s Statute Book, Bishop Tutu and Alan Boesak and the SACC will ask countries abroad to apply sanctions. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I should like to react to the enquiries with regard to my portfolio.

I should like to start with the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly. He wanted to know why attention was not paid to the objections of the Reformed Church when the Black township on the farm Rosseaspoort at Thabazimbi was considered. On 9 December 1988 he was fully informed about the application and the measures that would be taken in order to accommodate the objections raised by the Reformed Church within reasonable limits.

I am still waiting for that.

In the light of the complaint he lodged yesterday morning, and his reference to the possibility of breach of faith I undertake to submit the matter to the Executive Committee for consideration in order to eliminate any doubts he may have with regard to the efficacy of the system.

As far as the Northam matter is concerned, I want to say that the normal procedure was followed and that the previous local area committee was fully informed in this regard.

†The hon member for Bosmont again raised the question of the proclamation of Riverlea, Extension 2. The hon members for Lenasia West and Lenasia Central enquired about the delay in the proclamation of Lenasia, Extensions 9 and 10.

I can understand the frustrations of the hon members when they refer to the process of township proclamation as a game of musical chairs and a question of the blind leading the blind. However, there are certain facts of which they are aware that I want to repeat this morning. Before I do so I want to assure them, however, that the Transvaal Provincial Administration has given the proclamation, top priority especially in Coloured and Indian areas. I have personally seen to it. This is evident if we look at the number of proclamations which the hon the Administrator has signed since we met last year. Townships were established in places like Lenasia, Edenpark, Brakpan, Eldorado Park and other areas in the Transvaal subject to the compliance of certain pre-conditions. I have already given a list of these pre-proclamation conditions. I want to emphasize that the Transvaal Provincial Administration is not responsible for the delay in proclaiming the said townships. The delays should rather be blamed on the developers.

This is what the delays are. The developers are mostly responsible for the delays.

I now wish to deal specifically with the applications concerned and I should firstly like to deal with Riverlea, Extension 2. The hon member must listen very carefully. I have given this information to him in writing but will repeat it for the record. The hon member for Bosmont was fully briefed in regard to developments. The township had been approved on 26 February 1987. On 22 September 1988 the general plan—which must still be approved—was furnished to the Surveyor-general for his perusal. The applicant—the City Council of Johannesburg—must still attend to and approve of the following matters: (1) the removal of existing title conditions; (2) the disposal of existing surface right permits; (3) section 89 amendment scheme; (4) the availability of circumspectory entrance to the township; (5) the general plan; (6) open a township register. As soon as all the abovementioned have been complied with, a township will be proclaimed.

I now come to Lenasia, Extensions 9 and 10. Once again the same procedure is being followed. The Administrator approved the township development on 13 September 1982, subject to the compliance of the pre-proclamation conditions. The applicant was advised of the approval on 19 October 1982. The pre-proclamation conditions the applicant had to comply with were as follows: (1) essential services agreement with the local authority—which was complied with on 18 June 1984; (2) the section 89 amendment scheme; (3) the disposal of conditions of title registered against the land; (4) requirements of the Rand Water Board; (5) approval of the general plan by the Surveyor-general; and (6) the opening of a township register.

I will submit these details to the hon the member in writing. The requirements of the Rand Water Board had been complied with on 23 November 1982 and the general plan was approved on 9 December 1983.

In terms of section 68 of Ordinance No 25 of 1965 the conditions should have been complied with on or before 19 December 1984. On 23 September 1987 the State Attorney applied for an extension of time until 31 March 1988 to enable him to comply with the provisions contained in section 68 of the Ordinance. The hon member must listen carefully. On 25 January 1988 the House of Delegates requested a further extension of 12 months until 31 March 1989, and this was granted on 11 April 1988. The House of Delegates applied again during March 1988 for an amendment to the conditions of establishment, and this was granted on 1 August 1988 and the amended conditions were submitted to the House of Delegates on 10 August 1988. The House of Delegates now has to take the necessary steps in order to get the township registered so that it can be opened and proclaimed.

The same can be said in regard to Lenasia, Extension 10. However, I am not going to deal with this in detail but would like to ensure hon members that, together with my senior staff members, I am prepared to accompany them to the Johannesburg City Council—if the hon member for Bosmont is able to get us an appointment—and to the House of Delegates—if the hon member for Lenasia can get us an appointment—so that this matter can be sorted out for once and for all.

I have tried to explain to hon members what can cause delays in the proclamation of townships.

*In conclusion I would like to react to a question by the hon member for Benoni, Mr Lemmer. He wanted to know whether the almost 2 000 new applications for township development for Whites, that are at present under consideration, should not be developed as free settlement areas. Township development is undertaken in terms of the Town Planning and Towns Ordinance, No 15 of 1986. This Ordinance does not discriminate between the various population groups and the group character of a town is determined by the Group Areas Act. The declaration of towns or areas as free settlement areas is not a function of the Transvaal Provincial Administration; it is the function of the Department of Development and Planning. The relevant township developers have to apply to this department for the declaration of free settlement areas.

Mr Chairman, it is an exceptional pleasure to speak after the hon MEC, Dr Willie Hoods. We were colleagues in the President’s Council too. We listened with great interest to the valuable information and the explanations he supplied.

I want to react very briefly to the hon member for Rust Ter Vaal and the hon member for Pietersburg. These two hon members both suggested that we follow a simplistic policy in this country. The standpoint of the party of the hon member for Pietersburg, the CP, is that we should return to a racist policy. The standpoint of the party of the hon member for Rust Ter Vaal is that we should simply ignore the fact that we are a multi-ethnic country, which is just as simplistic and as difficult to implement in practice as the CP policy.

Any policy that is to be implemented in this country must be workable, and it must be acceptable to the majority of the country’s inhabitants.

Apartheid is not acceptable.

It must also be affordable.

Apartheid is not workable.

It does not comply with the requirements. [Interjections.] I am not advocating apartheid.

Order! [Interjections.] I hear the voice of the hon member for Rust Ter Vaal very often. He must restrict his interjections, because he is going to get another turn to speak. If he wants to make use of it, he will have to curb his interjections. The hon member may proceed.

I want to devote my speech to the importance of a provincial government, and want to refer in particular to the successes attained by the provincial administration in two spheres in the past year. The one sphere has been discussed reasonably comprehensively by the hon member for Sunnyside, viz the success the provincial administration had in implementing regional services councils. I shall refer to this again later.

In addition I want to discuss the great success attained in the municipal elections last year. In my opinion we have not really rated the success of the elections of 26 October last year highly enough, especially with reference to our Black communities.

I merely want to point out that we in our province have a draft budget of R3,7 billion. That is a large amount for this administration to deal with, but it remains a fact that our province does not receive its rightful share of the State cake. [Interjections.] We are meeting here today as Transvalers, and I say that if one looks at the total budgets of the four provinces, one sees that a total of R9,2 billion has been budgeted for the four provinces.

If we look at the composition of the Transvaal’s population and at the economic activities in the province, and we take all these factors into account, we realise that the Transvaal should really have received at least R1 billion more than is the case at present.

That is why we appealed in the past for some or other scientific formula to be applied, but I must point out that this request was made even when there was still a provincial council in the Transvaal. Consequently it is not a request that has been addressed to the Government only during the past few years.

I am afraid that this problem will not disappear as long as the province has to compete with the Government departments to get money from the Treasury. That is why I feel we shall have to take a serious look at the concept of fiscal federalism.

What I mean by that, is that it must work in such a way that the taxes generated in a certain region are used in that specific region to the greatest possible extent, although not exclusively. That is what I am trying to indicate by using the concept of fiscal federalism.

I now come back to the regional services councils, because I feel certain characteristics of fiscal federalism can be found in the concept of regional services councils, since the regional services levy on wages and the regional establishment levy on turnover collected in a certain region is used for development only in that region, and that is the way it should be.

In this way the levies paid in the regional services council area of Pretoria, for example, are not paid to the Treasury, but are allocated for socio-economic development projects in the Pretoria region in particular. In my opinion that is a sound principle.

If one looks at the total budgeted amount for the 12 RSCs in the Transvaal for the 1988-89 financial year, one sees that no less than R487 million has been budgeted for. These funds were generated in the Transvaal and are spent in the Transvaal.

That is ancient history.

It is not ancient history, because what I want to say is that it is doubtful whether our province would have had this R0,5 billion for use in this province had there not been regional services councils. I do not know whether the hon member is capable of understanding that. [Interjections.]

Since the establishment of the first RSCs in June 1987, 308 projects have been completed in the interests of all the population groups. This is proof that we can make a great deal of progress with consensus politics in this country if we are not selfish and if we are prepared to co-operate for the sake of our common interests.

Not one of the participants in any of the 12 RSCs of the Transvaal has found it necessary to address an appeal to the Administrator. This proves that people can see eye to eye when they want to do so.

I spoke briefly about the concept of fiscal federalism that I see is developing in the regional services councils, and I also elaborated a little on regional services councils. This then is an appropriate occasion on which to address myself to the hon Mr Fanie Schoeman, MEC, and to thank him sincerely for the great work he has done over the years, first as an MPC and later as an MEC and the leader of our party in the Transvaal Provincial Council. He was also a worthy acting Administrator quite a few times.

In the years in which he was in the service of our province, he established giant monuments for us, but I believe that the greatest monument he has established will prove to be the regional services councils. On his retirement, our best wishes go with him and Betsie who always supported him so beautifully. We wish them everything of the best. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman …

What are you going to talk about now?

Just keep quiet and listen.

It may sound as simplistic as hon members here say it is, but there is a great need for additional accommodation at the Coronation Hospital. Either the hospital must be extended, or there must be a transfer from the J G Strijdom to Johannesburg …

But you are saying the same thing over and over again.

Yes, and I shall keep on saying it, because I want to impress it upon the hon MEC.

Wards can also be made available at the J G Strijdom, and when I talk about wards, I am not talking about one little bed or two or three, but of quite a few wards.

Once again I want to issue an invitation to the hon MEC please, if possible, …

Order! The hon member must remember that the same speech about the same subject and with the same paragraphs and sentences cannot be repeated over and over again. I draw his attention to the fact that he must talk about something new now. The hon member may proceed.

Sir, I am still saying that I request the hon MEC, if possible …

Order! I have already asked the hon member to talk about something new, and in my opinion he is still repeating himself. The hon member may proceed.

Sir, it was said yesterday that there was a 30% shortage in staff at hospitals. I do not know how we can expect doctors and professors to work in small rooms of approximately one metre by two metres that have to be used as offices. These people have to keep their reference books and other books as well as other equipment there. Nevertheless we expect them to come to the hospitals to do duty. As someone rightly said yesterday, these people are not part of a social welfare organisation that must simply do things free of charge whereas they can render better service outside in the private sector.

I should like to discuss the hospital college. The visual aids for the hospital are very limited. There is an immense shortage of these aids. One overhead projector and a few slides have to be shared by eight to 12 or 14 people, and if someone wants to use this equipment for a lesson, he has to ask the permission of the other people first. If anyone goes to the registrar to ask him for additional slides or anything similar, he wants to know whether the equipment is necessary, whereas that person really needs to use it.

There is no potential for promotion. The teachers or lecturers at that hospital are becoming discouraged and want to move out to the private sector because they are stuck in the same place for between five and seven years, and there is no chance for them to make any progress. This matter must receive attention.

We find the same thing here—there are not sufficient offices. Toilets are being converted into offices for the officials. They have to go and sit in toilets, which have to be used as offices!

There are approximately 300 pupils at this nurses’ training college. There is a crying need for transport. I spoke about cars in this connection last year, and shall have to repeat what I said this year, because still nothing has been done to replace these cars. Some of these trainee nurses have to walk from Coronationville to Westbury, where they have to visit clinics.

As a result of a transport problem, some of these students who have to receive psychiatric training at Sterkfontein have to stay in quarters at the Leratong Hospital. This makes it very difficult for them.

Another problem is that whereas 60% of the pupils are Afrikaans-speaking, tuition is only in English. This problem must receive attention, because it is very difficult for someone who has spoken Afrikaans for 10 or 12 years to switch to English. What makes it even more difficult is that we expect good results.

Then there is the question of bedding. A central laundry determines how many sheets and towels etc go to the hospital. The position in this regard is so bad that those in training are taught to use two towels per patient. They say it is a miracle if one can get hold of a facecloth.

As far as the changing of linen is concerned, the cleanest dirty linen is retained. If someone has soiled his linen and it is not too dirty, he sleeps on that linen until the following week, because there is a shortage of linen as a result of the fact that someone elsewhere decides how much should go to a certain place.

The next aspect is clothing. Only R54 per year is provided for shoes, and that is very little. Not everyone can wear Edworks shoes, and those who cannot probably have to stand and work barefoot. One gets R120 for a uniform, which costs one approximately R300. Nevertheless one is expected to wear one’s uniform every day. I shall leave it at that for the moment.

Mr Chairman, I want to refer quickly to the remark made by the hon member for Roodeplaat in regard to the racism of the CP on the one hand and the simplism of the CP on the other.

I found it very interesting to hear that hon member talking about the ethnic policy (volkerebeleid) of the NP. I think the NP ran away from its ethnic policy so quickly that one cannot even see the dust in the distance any more. As far as I know the NP now stands for one undivided South Africa and one nation. [Interjections.] I think the NP closed its eyes to an ethnic policy long ago. [Interjections.] The policy of the CP is an ethnic policy.

That is not true! [Interjections.]

Oh please, I really do not want to react now to the hon member for Hercules. In any case he is merely hanging round here in Pretoria for old times’ sake until the next election. I hear that he is then going to live in the Cape. I do not think I want to hear anything more about him. [Interjections.]

What about you? You are not going to make it back either! [Interjections.]

I can hear the hon member for Langlaagte, Sir, but I cannot see him for the trees. [Interjections.]

*Mr Chairman, I now come to the reference to the simplism of the CP. If one wants an example of simplism, one need only listen to the State President of South Africa. His simplism in regard to power-sharing is a good example. Please note of course that he always refers to “healthy” power-sharing. Look what his sound powersharing has brought us to today in this country. Where did his sound power-sharing bring him? He has seen for himself now that when one shares power one loses that power. I am also referring to his simplistic statement that when people go off to fight together, they must also play rugby together. That is the kind of simplism one finds in him.

The CP is not simplistic. The CP has an incisive policy in respect of multinationalism, and if there is one thing that proves that that policy makes sense, it is this two-day session. Probably as much as two thirds of our time here has been spent on a meaningless tug-of-war between the separate Chambers on the one hand and the Government on the hand, while, if the three separate population groups had sat separately—in provincial context as well—two thirds of the time we have spent during the past two days conducting this debate would have been utilised for meaningful discussion. [Interjections.]

I should now like to turn to the hon MEC who replied to my hon leader—the MEC in charge of physical planning and land utilisation. I want to place on record that as regards the Thabazimbi matter, my hon leader, after approximately three or four months, has heard nothing about this matter yet. I want to tell this hon MEC that this is illustrative to us of the decadence and decay which is progress under the NP regime in this country. [Interjections.]

Two or more weeks ago I submitted a whole list of questions pertaining to matters that had to be discussed. I was informed that the replies would be sent to my home or delivered to me in one way or another. As I stand here today, apart from the reply on the Van Velden Hospital, I have not yet received any other reply—least of all replies to my questions on the roads in my constituency. That means only one thing. It is either due to the incompetence of the administration or to the incompetence of the Post Office, which is decaying under this Government. Of course it could also be the SA Transport Services. In any event it is one of the components of the NP Government that must be blamed for this.

Yesterday other hon members complained here about their letters which were not being replied to. [Interjections.] My address is Private Bag 1050, Waterpoort. I want to say that it takes approximately two weeks for a letter posted in Pretoria to reach me. Earlier it took three days.

Other hon members complain about letters that were not replied to.

Who are they?

I do receive letters from the hon MEC in charge of roads. Do you know, Sir, what he wrote to me about my roads? He wrote to me—this was the theme of his letter—that if I wanted to know something about roads I should not bother him about it; I should consult the road engineer in Pietersburg. That is what that hon MEC wrote to me. [Interjections.] I shall show hon members the letter. I have it. I am keeping it. I shall even have it framed. [Interjections.] He wrote to me saying that I should consult the road engineer in Pietersburg. That is the kind of arrogance and insensitivity one gets from this Government. It is characteristic of this fat-cat Government.

Look at you! [Interjections.]

I now want to make the following statement, Sir. The humbler people are, the more indifferent and unsympathetic the attitude of this Government in respect of their problems. I am referring for example to the road workers in my constituency—some of the finest and most modest people that there are in the service of the State. When we drove past road workers my grandmother used to tell us that we should always greet those people because they were making our roads. That was how I was taught to act towards them.

My grandmother did not tell me anything like that! Surely one does it automatically!

The hon MEC in charge of roads knows about the time I telephoned him at his office last year. He was not available himself. I spoke to his secretary. I think it was round about July or August last year when a certain road worker lapsed into a coma. He is still in a coma. The Roads Division is after all one of the arms of the provincial administration. This division or one of the other divisions of the provincial administration must surely have filled in forms or whatever in connection with this case so that a certain payment could be made to the wife or into the estate of that road worker to pay off a piece of land. If that payment is not made, they are going to lose their land.

Shortly before the December holidays I telephoned the secretary of the hon MEC again. She then told me that the matter had virtually been disposed of; it was only a question of days before the documentation would be ready and the road worker’s wife would receive her money. That woman telephoned me last week. She has not yet received those documents. To her this does not only mean that she has to wait. She has no credit facilities. She has no bank account or anything of that kind. She is a young woman with two children.

Has she not received the cheque yet?

She does not even have the documents which will enable her to receive that money. She has not received anything yet. The day before yesterday I telephoned the secretary of the hon MEC once again. Let us go further.

Yesterday evening the road workers telephoned me. They happened to find me at home. They cannot subsist on their salaries alone. Surely hon members know that. They subsist on their earnings from travelling time and away time. That is where they get that extra money from. There are some of their trainees whose basic salary is just over R400 a month. That travelling time is paid out to them at the end of the next month.

They tell me that they often receive that travelling time only in the middle of the month following the month in which they ought to have received it. Sometimes they even wait two months for it. When the end of that month comes, those people need that money. There are things they have to pay for. They do not have bank accounts with overdraft facilities. Their wives must have money to buy food for the children. They cannot do this out of their basic salary. Nevertheless they have to wait for their money. This is due to imcompetence on the part of the Government. It indicates a total insensitivity in regard to the needs of the humble people in the community. [Interjections.]

I want to refer to another case. Six months ago a road worker bought a house. He did so in the hope of receiving a subsidy. He is still waiting for that subsidy. He takes home R700 a month. The instalment on his home amounts to R900 per month. How must that man live? He bought the house expecting that he would receive a subsidy. That is what it boils down to.

Imagine buying a house in expectation of something!

Just listen to that! That really reflects the insensitivity of the hon member for Hercules—an hon member of the NP. [Interjections.]

Order! I hear the voice of the hon member for Hercules far too frequently. The hon member for Soutpansberg may proceed.

Thank you, Sir.

That man bought a house on which he has to pay R900 per month. His subsidy is simply not there! He has been waiting for it for six months already. This is the kind of human suffering for which the NP no longer has any sympathy or feeling. [Interjections.]

The hon the Administrator spoke about hospitals. I shall leave the road aspects at that for the moment. I shall return later to roads as such. The hon the Administrator spoke about hospitals. I have now received the reply from the hon MEC. Apparently tenders will be called for for the Van Velden Hospital. This will happen in November.

We must nevertheless remember that this is a case in which that hospital has had its own money available for a long time. I think they have been waiting for years merely for permission to make improvements to the maternity hospital. I make so bold as to say that if I had not intervened, bureaucratic red tape in Pretoria would at this stage still not have progressed far enough for me to have received the reply which I did in fact receive yesterday. Nevertheless I want to give recognition for what has been done now. The tenders are now to be called for in November.

As far as roads are concerned, I also want to say the following. Branch road 1942—that is the road from Messina running eastwards to the border—serves the entire eastern border. The SA Defence Force uses that road every day. The farmers who are producers also use that road every day. One of my people there, Herman Visser, tells me that the road is in such a poor condition that one cannot even fly across it in a helicopter. [Interjections.] I agree with him. [Interjections.] I have driven along that road myself.

Three years ago the hon the State President himself said at Messina or somewhere that that road was his first priority as far as roads were concerned. When the hon the State President drove away the priority of course drove away with him. He then knew nothing more about it. [Interjections.]

Where is the ox-wagon?

The ox-wagon went on its journey last year. If the hon member had wanted to he would have seen what the ox-wagon looked like.

It is no use having that road graded with a road grader. All that one does then is to scrape the stones together. If one wants to grade that road one must also use water to bind the surface. Every now and again we hear that something is going to be done about that road now. Nevertheless that is where it ends every time. I should now like to know whether something is going to be done about that road during the present year. The road runs all along the border. Every day parents have to take their children to school along that road. There are also regular rumours of terrorists, land mines and so on. It is therefore a contributory factor to tension, unrest and unhappiness there.

In general—I think I must say this—it is a fact that over a fairly wide front the roads at present no longer comply with the standards necessary to do justice to the mass and the volume of traffic they have to carry. The SA Transport Services has effectively neutralised itself in that its tariffs have become impossibly high. As a result there are only heavy vehicles on the roads. Not only are the roads too narrow to carry that traffic; the surface of the roads is not strong enough for that purpose either. In addition virtually all the roads fan out to the independent states, with one branching out from Pietersburg to Lebowa, Blouberg, Venda, Gazankulu and all the other states, with the exception of one or two separate states in the Transvaal.

These are also roads which run through Munnik, Magoebaskloof and Duiwelskloof to Giyani and the Lowveld—and ultimately on to Phalaborwa and Lydenburg. When there is traffic from the Black states, the daily volume is enormous. We cannot merely speak about volume without qualifying it; it is a dangerous volume, because we also have the taxis on those roads. The drivers of those taxis have no respect for any laws or regulations, for the traffic or even for a white stripe.

Nonsense! That is not true!

I am telling the hon member it is true. He can drive along those roads himself if he does not believe me. Possibly what has happened to so many other people who drive on those roads could happen to him. They are simply forced off the road and just have to be careful they do not lose their lives. [Interjections.] To a certain extent those roads have become Third World roads, and, if something is not done about this urgently, it is going to become a very grave problem. My last MPC, Mr Leon Thom, has spoken about this matter here, but so far nothing has happened. I want to specify the roads which require urgent attention.

There is the road running from Munnik, through Mooketsi, to Duiwelskloof. Then there is the road from Duiwelskloof to Tzaneen, and from Tzaneen to Lydenburg. I have already referred to road 1942. I also want to refer to the road which branches off from the road between Alldays and Waterpoort and goes to Messina. There is the matter of a bridge across the Brak River, which is absolutely essential. I believe that the volume of traffic justifies it. There is also the road from Vivo to Schiermonikoog. There is another road, which actually falls to a greater extent in the constituency of the hon member for Pietersburg but which both of us nevertheless share. This is a road near Houtbosdorp. In this connection the MEC wrote to me saying that other people had also come to see him about this road. They had also made representations to him about that road. Of course I know who these other people are. They are members of the NP. The only locus standi they possess is their membership of the NP. They are not elected people. [Interjections.] Apparently they got what they wanted. [Interjections.]

… the agricultural union!

The agricultural union?

Yes, at the time they had elected members. What happened there?

Oh yes. Oh well, I shall tell the hon member what happened there. We can spend some time on it. What happened there nevertheless? At the meeting in Messina? At one meeting, that was held by Mr Mentz, four people turned up. The day when Tobie Meyer had to hold a meeting there, no one turned up. What happened to all the other school committees that were elected at other places? Please, the hon gentleman who is snuffling into his glass, will find nothing to batten on there. And he knows it. This will also become apparent at the next election. [Interjections ]

What happened to the election at the Ben Vorster High School? What happened to the election at the Merensky School? And to the election at the Tzaneen Primary School?

And Louis Trichardt?

What happened in Louis Trichardt? It is still going to happen. We shall see it happening one of these days. I shall be there myself. That hon member can also come along if he likes. Nevertheless I believe that these days he remains at a safe distance from the Bushveld. [Interjections.]

As regards services, I must unfortunately say that the Northern Transvaal is one of the most neglected areas in the country, particularly when it is compared with other regions. I am referring, for example, merely to the road surfaces there.

They have now resurfaced the road from Masekwaspoort to Waterpoort and on to Vivo. A thin layer of tar and a little sand! It does not last three months. There are potholes everywhere already. Before they had reached the end, the road surface at the beginning had already begun to crumble.

I want to refer next to another matter. One of my voters sent me a copy of a letter which he had received from the Transvaal Provincial Secretary. This is a person near Tzaneen. Unfortunately I do not have the letter with me now. This person applied for business rights on a piece of land. The provincial secretary notified him by letter that the reason for the refusal to grant him business rights was an objection made by the Lebowa government. I cannot believe or accept that this can happen. I do not think it is the case that the government of a national state …

How far is it from the border?

It is close to the border.

[Inaudible.]

Yes, but in this instance the issue is a business which will render services to the White farmers in that area. That is the issue here.

[Inaudible.]

No, it has nothing to do with trading rights. What we are dealing with is transportation. In any event, if this is Government policy, we nevertheless do not think that any objection from the neighbouring government of Lebowa should be a consideration in regard to the recognition of such rights.

Then I read in the Die Noord-Tranvaler of the assistance which the Northern Transvaal Regional Services Council is going to render to farm schools and farmers’ associations. I am referring to financial assistance. I am pleased about that. What I nevertheless want to know is what norms are going to be applied in the allocation of that assistance. Is it going to be done on an ad hoc basis? This is important. Apparently it is going to be done that way.

Is the CP participating in that regional services council?

The CP controls that regional services council. [Interjections.] We are the people who are governing in that regional services council. [Interjections.] I nevertheless want to know whether it is going to be a general occurrence throughout the entire province that regional services councils can apportion money on an ad hoc basis. How is one then able to programme? How is one able to budget? This year there may be an allocation of R50 000 and next year nothing. How can continuity be assured in this way?

[Inaudible.]

I shall discuss this with the regional services council there. You see, Sir, once again it is the hon MEC. He delegates powers to the regional services council but he does not know what he is delegating to them. This is the system we have here now. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, forgive me if I do not react to the hon member for Soutpansberg. In the main I do not wish to enter into the mêlée that goes on both here and in the Chambers of Parliament between the CP and the NP. [Interjections.]

It is unfortunate a man as nice as the hon member for Soutpansberg is in the CP with its policy. I have had occasion to sit down and discuss matters with him and I can honestly say that I have found him, as well as many of his colleagues in the CP, to be a person of understanding. What is probably required here is that we be given more opportunities to sit down and talk with them. Where the NP has failed to make them see the right way we will probably succeed.

I am not here to point a finger at the CP. Whether it is a dead horse or a live one, we will attempt to do so at some stage or another. If calls have been made to speak to the ANC and to the UDF, why should we not talk to the CP as well?

I do not see any difference between members of the CP, the NP, the PFP, Inkatha or the members of the House of Delegates. We are one. We are all South Africans. [Interjections.] We have the same blood running through our veins, and we are descended from the same ancestors, Adam and Eve. Nobody can deny that.

I believe we need one another. It is time for us to get together and to understand one another. This is not the time for remarks like the unsavoury one made yesterday by an hon member about the differences between the Hindus and the Muslims. I want that hon member to know that as far as we, the Indian component, are concerned, there is only a religious difference. We do not separate ourselves on any other basis.

What happened in India …

Suffice it to say, for the information of hon members, that the hon Chairman of the Ministers’ Council in the House of Delegates is a Hindu and I am a Muslim. I will leave it at that.

Many complimentary remarks have been made during this debate with reference to the hon Administrator, the MECs Mr Schoeman, Mr Terblanche and Mr Ferreira, the newly appointed MEC. I too would like to associate myself with the sentiments expressed and wish to add to the hon Administrator that the positive spirit and outlook that he has displayed have not gone unnoticed. I am confident that all Transvalers are going to benefit from a strong executive and positive administration. This will hopefully rub off on South Africa as a whole.

The hon Administrator’s suggestion to members of the joint committee that members get to know the Administration better by being exposed to its workings is to be welcomed, and I for one am looking forward to this entirely new experience.

While I am saying thank you I would like to thank the MEC in charge of hospital services and Dr Van Wyk in particular for having pulled out all the stops last year when the need arose to get the vaccine for meningitis to administer to our pilgrims who were going to Mecca. We thank the MEC Mr Kirstein and Dr Van Wyk.

I also believe it is not out of place, having just come back from the Easter recess, to thank our traffic officers for their vigilance on the roads and for having directed the traffic at this Easter period when, as we know, there is carnage on the roads. We are thankful that the death rate was kept low, but I would still like to know what steps are envisaged by province to curb this carnage and make it easier and safer for us to use our roads again.

We are aware of the fact that permits were issued recently to Dr Reddy and Mr Cachalia amongst others to occupy property in so-called White areas. While not agreeing with the permit system and while believing in the freedom of association and choice of living areas, I would like to compliment the hon Administrator and his executive on their positive action. This act did more for South Africa both here and overseas than the flowery speeches of politicians.

On the question of permits, fortunately the hon the Deputy Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning removed from the province’s court the thorny issue of Windmill Park. We join with the residents of Windmill Park in thanking the hon the Deputy Minister for this overdue yet very welcome decision. The community of Windmill Park have demonstrated to the rest of South Africa what good-neighbourliness is all about.

My quarrel with the Boksburg municipality is with regard to its immoral decision to force people out of Windmill Park by threatening to discontinue the electricity and water supply to these families. I cannot think of anything more immoral. Windmill Park was and still is a controlled area and those who moved in there had applied for permits. It was a question of time. Fortunately, as I said, the hon the Deputy Minister took the bull by the horns as it were and said: “Fine, let us issue the permits pending the outcome of the investigations into a free settlement area.” However, the question that lingers in my mind is whether the province really was powerless to act in the face of this threat from the council. Was there no way in which the province could have intervened to salvage the situation? I find it very difficult to accept that a council can hold anybody to ransom in this manner.

However, history will record that the CP victory in 1988 was one of the finest presents to South Africa. I believe that a mirror was placed before the NP in the guise of CP policy and its implementation in Boksburg. The NP did not like this. They did not like what they saw because the truth hurts. They have the power, even at this stage after the debacles of Boksburg and Carletonville, to repeal the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act. However, more about this next week in Parliament.

Local councils have powers. They will make their own rules.

Mr Chairman, that hon member has a habit of outdoing the CP. I wonder when his bosses in the NP are going to ask him to reform, seeing that the NP is on the road to reform. [Interjections.]

Is devolution against my party’s principles?

Order! The hon member for Germiston also very frequently interrupts unnecessarily. With great respect I require him to refrain from doing so. The hon member may continue.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Carletonville spoke at length about the squatter problem. We do not deny the existence of squatters, nor do we deny the seriousness of the situation. We must, however, understand that the Group Areas Act and the unequal distribution of land are factors which have contributed to the squatter problem. Unfortunately at a time when the Government was moving on the road to reform and the influx control laws were repealed, our country was hit with sanctions and disinvestment. I say unfortunately, because with the repeal of the influx control laws and the influx of people from rural to urban areas, the need arose for the provision of housing. Instead of hitting us with a big stick the world community could have come forward and said: “Here is the money. You are on the right road. Build homes and accommodate these people.”

One has to be pragmatic. I believe that where the Government has taken positive action to overcome the problem, we ought to thank them. Where they are wrong we owe it not only to ourselves but to everybody around us to take off those blinkers and tell them where they are going wrong.

In his report the hon Mr Van Zyl, MEC, states on Vote 2 that 14 different pieces of legislation had to be used during the municipal election in the Transvaal. He called for uniform legislation for all and I fully agree with him. My question posed to him was in a similar regard. I was concerned about it and I want to assure the hon MEC that the House of Delegates will do everything in its power to support a unification of regulations governing local government elections. It is an absurd situation where, in the House of Assembly local government elections, an MP is by regulation barred from participating. Yet in the Houses of Representatives and Delegates an MP may be permitted to nominate himself for that election. I believe we need regulation governing the situation where a person who holds a higher office should not come down to a lower level. This would also include members of the President’s Council. It is fine if an MP stands and wins an election. However, one can imagine the shame if he loses a local government election and yet he is an MP. [Interjections.]

As regards Vote 3, Works, on the question of property expropriated by the Administration for future needs, I am aware of an instance where an individual leases property from the province. He nets himself a handsome profit well in excess of 100%. My attention was drawn to the subletting by the tenants of this block and I referred the matter to the regional representative in Springs with the request that a full investigation be carried out. To date, after nearly six months, I have heard nothing. As a matter of fact I telephoned Springs this morning and I was told that discussions had been held with the lessee and those that were subletting. My information is that the person who has initially sublet from the province and who has a 30-day lease is now demanding a month’s rental in advance as deposit, which amounts to about R1 300. He further insists on a lease being signed—on what basis I do not know. The maintenance of that property is the responsibility of that sub-tenant. It is really unacceptable because a sub-tenant who is paying R1 300 per month is required to maintain his property, which will cost him in the region of R2 500 or R3 000 to get into a shipshape condition. Thirty days later he may be told to vacate the premises by either the province or the gentleman who is leasing the property. I believe that the answer which was given to me stated that the person from whom the property was bought was given the first option to sublet.

I think a new system has to be devised because this is leading to exploitation. Some method has to be found where these properties are offered to persons to occupy. Obviously the period or duration of occupancy may be short and a different set of rules would then apply. However, when in a case like this I am told that the department will only require the premises after five years, then five years is a long time to allow one person who has benefited from the sale of the property to benefit once again to the tune of about 100%. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I am profoundly honoured to avail myself of this opportunity to respond to some of the questions raised—especially by the last speaker, the hon member Mr Seedat—addressing issues to which I will respond in the course of my presentation this morning.

Hon members have expressed concern about the increasing occurrence of road accidents with resultant loss of life and injuries and about what the administration is doing about this. We are certainly concerned with the statistics, especially if we take into account that last year alone we lost 10 000 South Africans on our roads, which is an average of about 900 deaths per month.

Law enforcement, regular patrols, speed checking and continuous mass measuring of heavy duty vehicles, as well as an ongoing analysis in order to implement preventative action, is part of the administration’s overall strategy.

*The overloading and roadworthiness of vehicles for the transportation of passengers, is receiving on-going attention because the lives of people are at stake. Discussions were also held in this regard with Sabta, the Black taxi organisation, with a view to gaining their co-operation with regard to overloading, training of their drivers, roadworthiness of the vehicles and other related issues. Attention is therefore being paid, inter alia, to the education of the travelling public in general.

†It is a well-known fact that the presence of a law enforcement officer has a restraining effect on motorists. One can therefore expect that the appointment of more traffic officers will certainly result in fewer accidents.

*At present the establishment provides for 590 posts. The reduction in State expenditure and the resultant freezing of posts is aggravating the problem even further. If one takes into account the increase in vehicles under normal circumstances, the establishment should actually provide proportionately for approximately 1 200 more posts. This also has an effect on the acquisition of vehicles and the salaries of provincial inspectors. These problems must also be addressed in due course. In spite of these shortcomings the law enforcement officers are doing everything in their power to minimise the increasing occurrence of road accidents and keep the accident rate as low as possible.

The hon member for Eersterus alleged that applications from Coloureds from Eersterus and Laudium for vacancies in the provincial inspectorate were not even considered. I want to tell the hon member that that is not true.

†In this regard I wish to refer to a joint circular which my colleague Dr Hoods and I sent to hon members of the House of Representatives and the House of Delegates who serve in the joint committee to remind them of job opportunities in the Transvaal Provincial Administration with specific reference to trainee technicians and provincial traffic inspectors, and also opportunities for the private sector to participate in tenders in the roads department. Our policy is to promote equal opportunity and to involve all population groups in this regard.

As far as his complaint is concerned, there were no applicants from Laudium but there were a few applications from Eersterus. In one case the applicant did not turn up for the interview and in another the applicant was disqualified because he was not in possession of a driving licence which is a prerequisite under the circumstances.

The hon members also raised the question of facilities at Overvaal and Warmbaths. I share the views expressed on the delays and the concern about them. In view of the fact that the matter falls under the works department I concede that we will find ourselves in hot water if we do not make progress in this regard. We do not want that to happen. As far as finalising the sampling of the water source is concerned, I give hon members the assurance that this matter will receive priority in the course of this year.

The hon indirectly elected member Mr Seedat raised the question of sub-letting. Here again I can give him the assurance that any matter which is raised on the abuse of this privilege will be investigated and anyone defaulting on an agreement with the TPA will certainly be dealt with. Exploitation will not be tolerated.

I now come to the hon member for Klipspruit West who directed a very scathing attack on the hon the Administrator regarding the issue of the licensing authority of the western area. Mr Chairman, to turn against the hon the Administrator and accuse him of openly siding with Whites on this issue after the hon member’s party endorsed the appointment of the hon the Administrator and numerous other hon members of his party wished the hon the Administrator well, is not warranted and should be addressed and corrected. The hon member is not here but I am sure his hon Leader will take this matter up with him.

The hon member directed a letter to the hon the Administrator on 10 January and on 16 January the hon the Administrator acknowledged his letter and referred his complaint to the town clerk on 23 January. On 6 February the town clerk responded with his viewpoint. On 23 February the hon the Administrator referred the contents of the town clerk’s reply about the matter to the hon member. On 6 March the hon member responded that he was not satisfied with the town clerk’s reply and that he would submit written proof of the complaints which he had received. On 17 March the hon the Administrator acknowledged his reply and said that the matter would be further investigated the moment the hon member for Klipspruit West submitted the written proof.

To direct such a scathing attack on the hon the Administrator and accuse him of siding with the Whites after receiving this correspondence is not a responsible action. The hon member should withdraw his reproach and accept the fact that the hon the Administrator acted in a responsible manner when he investigated both sides to the story and left the hon member the option of taking the matter up with the town clerk directly.

*We have an important part to play in politics of participation, which we must not underestimate. People are trying to build bridges and this means that one acts as an agent for reconciliation. In this exercise there is no room for the proliferating hatred the hon member for Klipspruit West proclaimed here yesterday. This can only be to the disadvantage of human relations, because reconciliation is an important part of our goal.

Reconciliation should not be taken lightly.

It is not a biological concept that demands that people must mix and must renounce their cultures.

We must not wrest reconciliation out of context.

It involves understanding the other person. It involves understanding every person’s ideals and motives. It does not mean that we must nurture hatred.

†If we have the courage, especially in these times, to take the right decisions, in our hearts we must know that there are no easy methods by which men or nations attain greatness. If we have the courage to take the right decisions, however, and if we have an abiding faith that only the righteous will ultimately survive, we will meet the challenges of the future with that inner confidence that we are helping to build a nation in which the finer values of man’s spirit may flower. Hon members must remember that we can either make history or be made by history.

*In these circumstances we must make use of the information in the joint sitting to build a strong case for the Transvaal. We must join hands in order to achieve a more scientific approach with regard to the allocation of funds, within the general limitations at present being applied by the hon the Minister of Finance. Many of our problems in the Transvaal would be solved if we succeeded in doing that. Then we would really be worth our salt.

Mr Chairman, forgive me for not following up on the speech of the previous speaker. I just want to reply to the hon member for Soutpansberg regarding his complaint that he did not receive replies to his questions. Unfortunately he is not here at the moment. However, full replies to his questions were given to his hon members of the joint committee, who should have accommodated him. Only hon members of the joint committee can put questions—which they did on his behalf—and his questions were fully replied to. One cannot direct one’s complaint to or blame the hon the Administrator or the hon MECs because they did not give him a reply. The questions he put were fully replied to and made available to his two hon members of the joint committee.

The recent handing over of 32 hospitals by the Transvaal Provincial Administration to the Ministers’ Council in the House of Assembly, which is now responsible for no fewer than 47 hospitals including three psychiatric hospitals, inevitably places a burden not only on the Administration but also on personnel—here I would, as I did last year, pay tribute to their dedication and selflessness, often in the face of extremely difficult and demanding conditions. Regrettably the financial state of the nation has not ameliorated to the extent that one would have liked. Indeed matters are bound to deteriorate before they improve.

Our hospitals were never meant to be profitmaking organisations, and as we can see from the Budget they cannot even break even. I do not believe that this is due to any maladministration.

Salary adjustments, new equipment and other developments are responsible for almost half of the increase on this vote. This is clearly the cause of some concern, and the situation will have to be watched in the future. However, we note with concern that the cost of new equipment is raging out of control due to the adverse exchange rate of the rand. This places an additional burden on the provision of adequate health services.

As previously mentioned salaries too have also been increased but yet have to reach a realistic level. However, care must be exercised to see to it that the cost of administration does not exceed the cost of equipment and services. The present privatisation initiatives provide the only method of resolving the problem of underutilisation of some provincial hospitals because most of the underutilised hospitals primarily provide a service for private members of medical aid funds. Therefore the State has been forced to run much larger hospitals than the requirements of the small number of State patients necessitate.

If, on the other hand, it were possible to privatise hospitals that were overwhelmingly private the State would only have the responsibility of ensuring services for a small minority of State patients. It is cheaper for the State to pay a private entrepreneur, for example approximately R300 per year that it might cost for a State patient who will always remain the Government’s responsibility than keep a hospital for, say, 50 000 people—90% of whom are private patients—open at the cost of, for example, R5 billion per year. This Government will always ensure adequate access to health care for those to whom it is responsible. Hospitals might be privatised …

Order! Hon members must lower their voices please.

… but the service, access and quality of care will never be neglected.

It is true that overloading—that is overcrowding—occurs in some instances. However, as the hon the Minister remarked in an interview this can largely be attributed to urbanisation and the determination of people to go to a hospital even though they could be treated just as effectively at a clinic. I was most heartened at the following statement by the hon the Minister:

This shows how—in our unique situation—the role of our hospitals is continuously changing. In this particular case the intention is not to provide hospices but a humanitarian service to those who cannot afford proper care. At the same time it also shows how health and welfare are inextricably intertwined. If the frail and elderly are to be accommodated in empty beds—as I hope they will—not only will they have the dignity of ongoing and compassionate care but also possibly benefit our research in geriatric care and disease.

I am more than conscious of the need for sound financial and cash management to be exercised by the provinces. To a certain extent I believe the provincial hospitals should—wherever possible—emulate the private hospitals and cash manage their assets and income to the fullest extent. Capital prudently invested even on a short-term basis yields interest and this interest can be profitably used for financing immediate expenditure. Naturally one can never expect a cash register mentality from our provincial hospitals. However, where a service can be profitably privatised this should be done. In this regard, we await the outcome of the investigation by Dr Wim de Villiers.

It is, however, important to take note of what the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare said in the RSA policy interview. He said that what they strive for in health services is market orientation and not privatisation as such. I was shocked at the recent intemperate attack by the pharmaceutical profession on the hon the Minister as regards the high cost of medicines—a matter being studied by Dr De Villiers. At the root of the motion was the tender system which is allegedly the root of all evil. However, what are the facts? I again quote the hon the Minister:

Directly and indirectly the high cost of medicine has an impact on provincial hospitals. Pharmacies have offered no suggestion as to what should replace the tender system which would make the hospital bill a truly staggering one if put on a footing with the so-called private enterprise’s way of doing things.

Despite Government’s attempts to reach out to pharmacies it is—I fear—becoming abundantly clear that the profession is trying to blame the Government in order to draw attention away from itself. I most sincerely hope that pharmacies will stop short of creating a crisis that will result in increased overall costs for all consumers. In this regard, I would advise them to get together with the manufacturers and wholesalers and see just who is responsible for the increase in prices. However, as we have often seen in the past it is always far easier to blame the Government for all ills.

Official statistics show that the pharmacists cannot be having it all that bad. In 1970 there were 3 984 pharmacists. This number has grown to 7 928 in 1987—a compound growth of 4,1% from 1970 to 1987 as opposed to a compound growth of 4,9% for nurses, 3,9% for medical practitioners and specialists and a 5% compound growth for dentists and specialists. I think the figures speak for themselves. I hope that better and even more effective generics come onto the market to benefit—in particular—the provincial hospitals and enable them perhaps to provide medications they cannot provide at present. In this regard, I am glad that the medicine control council is finally compiling a list of therapeutic equivalents to assure the public that the particular medicine will have the same effect as its brand name equivalent.

I do not for one moment underestimate the financial demands on provincial hospitals. Aids—in particular—will pose a financial problem of horrifying dimensions with an estimated 20 000 HIB-positive cases in this country, although not as serious as in some countries in Africa. The erratic behaviour of the virus makes the Aids scenario a gloomy one. However, I greatly fear that if we do not start addressing this problem immediately the consequences could well be catastrophic for the provincial hospital services—indeed for the whole health programme. This is one area where I feel attention should be focussed on stringent cash management to provide for eventualities, local manufacture of drugs and other substances that might be produced and found effective in the future and the setting aside on a long-term basis of certain areas for the treatment and care of terminal cases of Aids in a dignified atmosphere.

It pains me to say that since the province took over pensions, psychiatry and social work, Black welfare as such has been the subject of neglect.

I do not for one moment imply that this is deliberate. However it has become clear that in many areas there is need. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I should like to discuss Vote No 2, Library Services. In so far as library services are concerned, these are services which have to be utilised in all earnest. The creation of library services in the Western Transvaal must be accomplished. Coloured towns in the Western Transvaal such as Wolmaranstad, Zeerust, Fochville, Ventersdorp, Schweizer-Reneke and Bloemhof—which also has a secondary school these days—do not have those facilities. I believe that we must create these services for the residents as a prerequisite. Today I appeal in all earnest to the MEC entrusted with library services to pay attention to that matter.

How can we solve the scholastic problems of those children so that they can enter the future without any anxiety or fear? They can do that by means of proper reference work and regular reading. These children and The inhabitants of these towns also have an ardent desire to enter into the future freely, but those opportunities, too, are being withheld from them so that they enter into the future without any vision. I appeal to the MEC to pay urgent attention to that matter.

I want to deviate from the usual order and react as LP whip. Yesterday the former leader of the UDP made anxious noises here in an attack on the LP, blaming it for the delay in the proclamation of Rabie Ridge. The hon member was looking in advance for an excuse, for the fact that he is going to lose the election. The fact that he blames the LP and the hon the Minister is undoubtedly a demonstration that he is meeting with adversity and that he wants a good reason for resigning from politics. Read Sunday’s Rap

port and see what the present member of the President’s Council wrote. I get the impression that the writing is already on the wall.

I shall also be reproached if I do not attack the hon member for Matroosfontein. Yesterday the hon member said that we were ill-mannered. Is that member all there? I do not think so. What he has forgotten is that he is not going to get any votes in the Transvaal. He must not drive himself into a corner and then suddenly blame the members of the LP in the Public Committee. We must remember that the time of vulture-politics is past. It is undoubtedly true that they are trying hard to find a little credibility. I do not believe that the two hon members of the opposition in the House of Representatives warrant such statements as were made here yesterday.

Allow me to react to the speech of the hon member of Roodeplaat. We must remember that the policy of apartheid has brought South Africa in trouble. This policy is unacceptable and unfeasible. It must be abolished.

Immediately!

The Government must formulate a new Constitution whereby everyone receives a legitimate share and Blacks become part of the overall constitutional structure. Only then can we speak about justice and progress and only then can we speak as true South Africans. I am afraid that until that happens we are unnecessarily holding back the reins and the time of progress. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I would like to take the opportunity first to finish what I wanted to say yesterday about the Black local authorities before dealing with my main subject today, which is squatters.

But first I must correct two errors which I made. Mr van Zyl was right when he queried the figures I used about squatters on the Witwatersrand—that is the estimated 1,6—2,4 million. It does refer to the PWV area and not just to the Witwatersrand. I do not think that is madly important because most of the squatters are on the Witwatersrand anyway. But I would like to correct that. The other figure I wish to correct is actually due to Mr van Zyl’s own report being somewhat ambiguous because I did originally have in my notes a R200 million figure for the rent and services arrears for greater Soweto. Then I read his report—if hon members will read page 8 paragraph 4, they will see that it is somewhat ambiguously worded—and I changed the figure then to R428½ million, but that does of course apply to the whole of the Transvaal. I would like to correct that because I do not like to be inaccurate on record.

Mr van Zyl queried my statistics on the percentage polls in the 1988 local authority elections for Soweto and Diepmeadow. I can assure him that those percentages that I gave were accurate, based on professional analyses of work in progress. I cannot give him the exact working progress at present because it has not yet been published. I can assure him that it was done by professionals, that there was no intention in any way to cook the figures, to add in under-18-year-olds and persons who were not eligible to vote because they were aliens and not residents. I will at some later time be able to produce the proof of that.

To get on to the parlous financial state of the Black local authorities. The Administrator was right when he stated that future deficits can only be avoided by external financial assistance, improved administration and financial control, the development of the communities and the creation of viable economic bases, by which I hope he does not mean economic self-sufficiency in the black local authority areas, because that is palpably impossible. We cannot expect the poorer Black suburbs in our cities to be self-sustaining, while we do not expect the poorer White suburbs to be self-sustaining. They come into the general pool and they get revenue from that pool. It is my belief that the Black local authorities attached to metropolitan areas ought also to have a share in the revenue that comes from those metropolitan areas. Blacks shop in those areas, they provide the labour and they therefore provide the profit base for those areas. They should have a share in the revenue from those areas.

I agree that it is very important that tough action be taken against corrupt officials. I think it is common cause that in the Black local authorities corruption is rife. There are going prices in order to be put at the head of a queue, for instance for housing. It is an inevitable consequence of an acute housing shortage that one is going to come across this sort of corruption. It has got to be put down as strongly as possible.

I think deregulation should be speeded up in order to develop the informal sector of the township economy. That is one way that these townships will become viable. I think the Black taxi business—despite the overcrowding and bad driving which of course should be corrected—is an excellent example of Black entrepreneurship overcoming a mass of obstacles which were placed in their way. I can remember 10 years ago arguing with the hon the Minister about the so-called “pirate taxis” which I felt were providing a much-needed service for the Black townships—an essential service.

Finally, as far as this topic is concerned, I hope that the freehold ownership of houses in the townships is at least going to provide a rateable basis for those local authorities.

I believe that all these recommendations are much more sensible than increasing rents and services charges. I accept Mr Van Zyl’s assurance about the caution which is going to be exercised in this regard, but I have to warn again that increasing rents and services during a period of high unemployment is a recipe for unrest, and I would like to remind Mr Van Zyl that the increase in rent, if my memory serves me right, was only R5 per month in Sebokeng in September 1984, and we know what disastrous consequences flowed from that.

I would also like to point out that the item for job creation on the estimates this year has been decreased from R10 million to R6 million as hon members will see if they look at Vote No 7, item K7. So when the creation of jobs has declined, one cannot at that time start increasing rents and services. I wish the hon member for Overvaal would shut up. [Interjections.]

Let me turn to the squatters. In Vote No 7, Community services, item K9, there is an allocation of R7 million for the provision and improvement of basic infrastructure and acquisition of land. I presume this is largely ear-marked for the squatter camps. I assume that. I am not sure. I must presume that much more is going to be added to this totally inadequate sum anyway to cope with the enormous problem of providing site and service. This is again something we asked for twenty years ago and we were accused of trying to lower standards in South Africa.

Are you happy now?

No, I am happier but I am still not happy by any means. The problem of providing site-and-service for these hundreds of thousands of people remains. These are the very poorest of the Black community, who have to erect shacks to provide themselves and their families with shelter, as no other affordable accommodation is available. I am certain that the land provided by the private sector is far too expensive for this class of persons, be it on the Rand, in PWV or elsewhere in the Transvaal. The private sector houses cost at minimum R20 000 to R30 000. None of the squatters can afford that. Everywhere squatters abound wherever one looks in the metropolitan areas in the Transvaal, in backyard shacks in Soweto, in garages at KwaThema, on land at Weiler’s Farm, at Alexandra Township, Bekkersdal, Thokoza, Katlehong, Witbank and elsewhere in the Transvaal, thousands upon thousands of people.

It is true that we are told of 4 300 erven acquired at Orange Farm for the people who unfortunately have to be moved from Weiler’s Farm, of the 3 000 erven available for site and services at Evaton North and of the 26 000 erven made available to the Housing Trust. I want to say at once that any land acquired so that homeless people can live legally and permanently without fear of removal is a plus factor which should be welcomed, provided that the charges for site and service are within their means and that the designated areas under the squatting legislation are not too far from the place where employment is available. Those are absolute prerequisites for any sort of settled community.

The Administrator said yesterday that he was pleased with the Prevention of Illegal Squatting Act that was passed last year. Hon members will remember that it was not a consensus Act. It had to go to the President’s Council which recommended eventually in somewhat garbled terms that the hon the State President should sign it, but then they said that it should be amended as a matter of urgency and all urban legislation should be reviewed so as to allay the fears that there would be any unjust unreasonable or discriminatory actions of the authorities.

I do not know whether any of that has been done, whether there has been any review of those laws and whether any amendments have been recommended to Parliament. The President’s Council was certainly by no means un equivocal when it recommended that the hon the State President sign that Bill.

We, in my party, opposed the Prevention of Illegal Squatting Bill throughout the joint committees and in Parliament itself and at many other stages as well. As a matter of fact, the Administrator and his fellow Administrators of all the provinces were, I think the only people who actually really did approve the Prevention of Illegal Squatting Act because it gives them vast powers to remove squatters without the obligation of having to provide alternative accommodation.

Mr Speaker, let me begin by saying that I appreciate the fact that Dr Woods said he was prepared to come to Johannesburg to speak to the City Council. I will do what he asked. I will arrange a meeting where we can get together and iron this out.

I would like to begin with one of our people’s main problems in central Johannesburg. This is one of the main problems of hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing in the House of Representatives but I feel that our province can have an input in this matter.

In the Tranvaal we Coloured people are victimized and pushed aside as far as housing is concerned. If we observe the areas where all the Coloureds in the Transvaal are situated, then we can see the following obstacles: Mining areas, filthy streams and Coloured areas are located very far from town centres. Some of these areas cannot be enlarged due to these obstacles. The majority of these areas for the Coloureds were planned for short-term needs, and now, years later, the population has grown to such an extent that we find that we have no houses for the younger generation. I see the only solution for the problem is to declare open all the areas adjacent to Coloured areas.

So we have Ennerdale and Eldorado Park. We realise that these places are growing but what we need is areas located centrally to Johannesburg. If we observe the area at Langlaagte, we see that all its amenities are being utilised by the community of Riverlea and its extensions. The South-Western Management Committee and I have recommended that Langlaagte be incorporated into Riverlea but the Johannesburg City Council rejected this. Langlaagte has become a ghost town, and opening this area will ease the situation of overcrowding. Here we really need and require the Provincial Administration’s assistance.

Coming back to hospital services, I hereby plead for adequate transport at all hospitals, especially Coronation Hospital.

Let us look at community services. The hon member Mr Y Seedat asked: “Who or which organisations qualify for grants-in-aid?” I see that seven organisations were unsuccessful. If there is an organisation that deserves this assistance, then it is SOS Children’s Village in Ennerdale because this is the only Coloured children’s home centrally situated to Johannesburg.

We should look at recreational services for the youth. I believe that if we have these services and implement them, then the youth will have a brighter future. That is why the Administration should allocate more funds for these recreational projects.

At the public resort at Warmbaths, the mud bath or mineral bath is closed to non-Whites, and I must stress that this is so unfair as this resort was frequented by people of colour in the past. Here again, the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act takes preference. I appreciate the fact that funds were allocated for this venture but what I would like to know is whether we would have the same amenities as it has at present. I ask the Administrator what the total expenditure for all notice boards of restriction, that is non-White and White notice boards, for the Transvaal is.

We have heard in this Chamber of a shortage of funds but it was mentioned that the duplication of amenities is costing the Provincial Administration too much money. Eliminating all these uncalled-for boards, signs, and duplications can certainly save the Provincial Administration funds to be utilised for some other much-needed programme.

Civil defence is another problem. Civil defence should be advertised in all Coloured areas and the system should be upgraded in order that fair and equal participation could be administrated. I appreciate the fact that funds have been allocated to this department and that this service is open to the public.

Almost every Coloured area has an emergency unit operating individually and are not subsidised by the Civil Defence Department because Civil Defence want their units to disband and do duty only with civil defence. These units are on duty in their areas 24 hours a day whereas if one is a member of Civil Defence, one only has to do 4 hours duty a week. It would be appreciated if the department could investigate this matter. These units are fully trained and qualified to administer the very same duties that civil defence does.

In conclusion I wish to make a request to the hon Administrator to open all pleasure resorts so that people of all Colours could share these amenities.

Mr Chairman, I am not going to respond to questions raised by previous speakers about squatting or Black housing. I am also not going to answer accusations brought against the Administration about any of these matters. My refusal does not stem from ignorance. On the contrary, if I were granted the opportunity I would be able to detain hon members all day discussing the causes of our current predicament, suggesting practical solutions to our problems and rebutting the allegations.

For me this is not a political exercise and as I intend using the valuable opportunity granted me to plead the cause of my people, I suggest that those hon members who still have questions after my address, hand them to me. I shall gladly respond to all of them in writing.

The Administrator explained in lucid terms our policy in regard to squatting. In our quest to solve the squatting problem in the Transvaal, we are prepared to co-operate with any person or organisation. The only people to whom we will not talk or with whom we are not prepared to co-operate are those who wish to bring about change through violence.

The reason for our policy in this regard is simple. We recognise squatting as an unfortunate but unavoidable product of the process of urbanisation. Squatting is not, I repeat NOT a result the Government’s policies, past or present. I regret to say that anybody who suggests this is deluding himself. One of the reasons for my saying this is that squatting is a universal problem and is found in countries where “apartheid” has never been practised. [Interjections.]

refers to when he speaks of “my people”? Does he refer to Black people?

All South Africans!

I refer to both.

Instead, they crave the opportunity to regain their pride and independence. We will not enable them to regain their pride and independence by idealistically arguing about political systems, or by being paternalistic. To my mind there is only one thing worse than physical slavery, and that is spiritual slavery, because then the slave becomes more than an animal, as he is unaware of his true condition. Political paternalism is the first step towards spiritual slavery, and I appeal to all hon members to avoid this cancer.

On the other hand, it is our duty to create conditions which will enable the Black Africans of South Africa to regain their pride and their independence. If we fail in this duty we inevitably play into the hands of our enemy, and by enemy I do not mean the Black African, but those sinister forces behind the Black extremists.

Mr Chairman, it is always a privilege to react to the contribution of the hon MEC, Mr Mavuso. It was interesting to see that a serious frown appeared on the hon member for Houghton’s forehead when the hon member spoke about squatting. Maybe she will explain later what the reason was for the frown.

I am thankful that the hon members of the CP have, since last year, changed their set of principles to such an extent that they are able to attend this sitting this year in order to catch a glimpse of what is going on. [Interjections.] They are accustomed to changing their principles. I should like to …

Talk about Windmill Park!

I shall debate that matter with hon members later …

Do it here!

… and we can discuss it calmly. I do not, think it is relevant now. The hon member must wait his turn …

Order! The hon member will have to wait his turn, which will be soon. If the hon member for Overvaal is prepared to wait, I shall ensure that he gets a turn to speak. The hon member may continue.

I hope the hon member does not change his principles again!

In the limited time at my disposal I wish to give attention to one of the important tasks of the Provincial Administration, namely their role in local government. In this respect I listened attentively and with appreciation to the speech made yesterday by the hon MEC, Mr Van Zyl. In my opinion the hon MEC made observations on the devolution of power to local authorities that were of cardinal importance.

To summarise what he said, I wish to quote a paragraph which appeared on page three of the report which he made available to the hon members of this committee at the start of the present sitting. The hon MEC must be congratulated on this concise report of 19 pages which provides hon members with the opportunity to make significant contributions concerning his activities and those of his department.

I should like to quote this paragraph:

This is an important sentence—

In this respect I feel compelled to bring specific cases to the attention of this Committee, the hon MEC and the hon Administrator. Pursuant to the hon MEC’s statement regarding the responsibility of the local authority, I wish to mention the following facts, which are a relevant example and which I corroborated this morning, facts which require his urgent attention.

A chartered accountant processed the data contained in 170 questionnaires which were completed by businessmen in Carletonville, and made a summary. Alarming facts emerged. I want the hon member for Carletonville to listen carefully to what I have to say, because I think that he is party to it.

No less than 54% of the businesses in the town showed in their books a decline of more than 50% on their turnover. Even more alarming is the fact that 33% of the representative businessmen experienced a decline in turnover of more than 80%. I think this is something which that hon member can be very proud of. Altogether 252 employees, most of whom happened to be Whites, have already been dismissed by these 170 businesses, which represent only a portion of the businesses in the town. [Interjections.]

What is more, at least 10 businesses, including a supermarket, have already had to close their doors, while other supermarkets had to begin transferring their personnel to other towns and centres … [Interjections.]

Mention its name.

That hon member will have his turn. I shall mention its name to the hon member in a minute. I do not find it approximate to do so here, but I think that the hon member can investigate. He does not know what is going on in his own constituency. [Interjections.]

This situation is described by those involved as an emergency situation, and it is the result of the CP policy being practised in this town. [Interjections.] 26 October 1988 was a day which signalled a disaster for the towns in the Transvaal when the CP began to take control of a number of local authorities. [Interjections.] If the hon member for Carletonville wants to imply—I heard him say this a while ago—that the boycott in Carletonville was short-lived, I want to tell him that he is telling a an untruth or that he is living in a dreamworld and has no idea of what is going on in his constituency. He must let me tell him. Those people will also tell him. [Interjections.]

This kind of thing does not serve the interests of the community, which the hon MEC referred to. Let us consider to what degree the devolution of power has been abused in this town—that is the word I want to use—to the detriment of this country. Although South Africa is committed to significant reform—which has been spelt out clearly in this Committee today—and good relations between population groups and people, and while goodwill between population groups and people is a prerequisite, this local authority could not wait to erect apartheid signs in a park in the central business area of the town. I have referred to this previously, but I think it is important that I do it again, because it is relevant in the discussion of this hon MEC’s Vote.

I could not believe my eyes when I stopped in the main street one day and saw one of the biggest—and I call it that—circuses I have ever seen. On a lawn in the corner of the park stood a traffic officer—who should actually see to road safety—and his task was merely to ensure that the number of Blacks, Coloured and Indians who walked through that park, could walk through the park but could—so help me—not linger there.

This spectacle did incalculable harm to the interests of the country. It was televised on various TV networks throughout the world and proffered as the South African mentality, something which we on this side of the Committee, wish to dissociate ourselves from. If the provincial authority ever had reason to play the role spelt out by the hon MEC in a situation in which local party political interests have been placed above the interests of the country, it is here. [Interjections.] These people no longer regard it as a party political joke; it affects the survival of a once thriving business community, which will have a snowballing effect on the economic interests of every resident of that town. [Interjections.] Even professional people such as attorneys, accountants, physicians feel it. I shall furnish him with more names if he if he wants them, he must just come and ask and I shall help him with his constituency. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member must refer to the hon member for Carletonville when he speaks about him.

The hon member for Carletonville must come and ask me for the names; I shall help him with his constituency.

Wake up!

There are many people on that hon member’s side who are sleeping.

Carletonville will increasingly feel the effects of the disaster of 26 October, and they are now sending cries of distress to this Administration, since the people who they elected to serve the community, are sabotaging that community.[Interjections.]

Come and state your case there.

I shall do it with the greatest of pleasure, if the hon member so requests.

I shall mention another example to the hon members. While the hon MEC is also responsible for local authority elections, I want to mention to him by way of example that there exists a feeling among businessmen that the chairman of the management committee, for example in a mining town, was elected by people who do not pay any municipal tax. I am making this statement very carefully, just to illustrate the frustrations and resentment which have already become part of the people who own property, have made investments there and who have contributed over the years to the sound economic development and growth in that town. In the light of the hon MEC’s standpoint which has been stated so clearly in his report, I plead with him to attend to the problems of a community which is appealing to him with cries of distress in fear of their survival.

I made it my task to be familiar with the situation in Carletonville, but it is not the only town in the Transvaal where the CP is abusing the devolution of power and placing party politics above the broader interests of the South African community. [Interjections.] It is undoubtedly true so that there are certain CP local authorities which are going about things like a bull at a gate—I am not referring to the gate at Paardekraal—and who do not keep their election promises either. Here and there, though, they are being pragmatic. I wish to congratulate the hon member for Pietersburg on the fact that his town council even allowed an athletic meeting to be held in its town without racial discrimination, contrary to the policy of its party and contrary to Brakpan where the local authorities have applied the CP policy on mixed sport consistently. [Interjections.]

The Boksburg situation is well-known, but in the event of vehicle registration also being the responsibility of that authority, …

Order! It is disturbing to the speaker. The hon member may proceed.

Thank you, Mr Chairman, it was disturbing.

The Boksburg situation is well-known, but … [Interjections.]

Order! I appeal to the hon member for Overvaal and the hon member Dr Golden to converse more quietly, otherwise I shall ask them to leave the Committee.

Mr Chairman, it is such a pity that they are wasting my time; they should simply listen to what I have to say.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The machinery you are using is defective. I suggest you speak loudly into it as the sound is very bad.

Order! I am so sorry. I beg your pardon. The microphone was adjusted a couple of times but I am not sure in which direction. Is it better now? [Interjections.] Thank you very much.

*The hon member may proceed.

Since vehicle registration is also a responsibility of this authority, I must say that the Boksburgers are greatly indebted to this Administration for the fact that they can spend their holidays anywhere with a general Transvaal number plate on their vehicles, and they will not be recognised as Boksburgers. [Interjections.] It is true … [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, all I can say to the previous speaker is, pathetic, pathetic. [Interjections.]

I want to start off by saying here too that nobody can feel the way I feel if he did not live my kind of oppressed life. [Interjections.] So nobody can tell me how I feel, or where I am wrong or where I am right.

*The hon member for Roodeplaat, who spoke earlier, asked me whether I was able to think. [Interjections.]

†I want to say to him that it is a pity God created such a healthy body and such a healthy mind that cannot even think straight.

I want tell the hon member for Pietersburg that his mind is so skew because of all the discrimination and all the hatred towards non-Whites in him that even if he goes to a blacksmith his mind would not be straightened. [Interjections.]

Order! I do not think it is parliamentary to say that an hon member’s mind is skew. The hon member must withdraw it.

Sir, I withdraw the word “skew” and replace it with “almost straight”. [Interjections.]

No, that is not good enough, the hon member must withdraw it unconditionally.

I withdraw it unconditionally.

†The hon MEC Mr Schoeman said yesterday that I should know which roads were built by city councils and which by the province. The fact that I am “not White” does not mean that I do not know which is which. I use all the roads and know what is going on as far as roads are concerned. He must not say that. When I confronted him about it he told me that my information was incorrect. The same happened concerning the money given towards the toll road at Ennerdale. He asked me about an alternative road. I did not talk about an alternative. I can tell him, however, that that alternative was built to a lower standard. Two weeks after it was opened there were potholes in that road. Why? Because 99% of the vehicles carry “non-Whites”, travelling home. If it had been built for Whites it would not have been built so badly. I will continue saying that until those people realize it and feel the way I feel. They should walk the road with me to see what I have gone through in my life.

The hon the Administrator said that the regional services council allocated R321 million to Blacks, R13 million to “Coloureds”, R7 million to Indians and R85 million to Whites. There is a mistake somewhere. Someone gave us a whole lot of erroneous information.

As far as I know the reason why regional services councils were introduced was to cater for the underdeveloped areas. Does the hon the Administrator want to tell me my area is more developed than a White area? This is what is implied here. Surely that is not the truth. If one looks at the allocation of money one can see what is happening. No matter what structure one is going to put up it will be a White structure. They will look after themselves and feather their own nests and they do not care about the other communities.

I want to tell the hon MEC Mr Mavuso that it is foolish to think that it is not the political situation which is the cause of homeless people in this country. We all know it. We all know that if there had not been a Group Areas Act we would not have had squatters. [Interjections.] We all know that if we did not have to battle for land we would not have squatters. [Interjections.] Why do we have squatters? Because people were pushed out of the city and town centres to places kilometres away. They want to and they will come back to their place of birth.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member whether there are group areas acts in the rest of Africa and whether there are squatters in the rest of Africa?

We are discussing the problems in the Republic of South Africa. One of the problems of the NP is precisely that they want to run away from the problems of this country. Now they want to ask me about the problems of Africa. They must not compare us to other countries. We have to solve our own problems which have been caused by their laws. That hon member sitting there in front refused to answer my questions in a joint committee because of the colour of my skin. He hates me for that. He has shown it over and over again.

Order! I do not think it is in the interests of this committee and of parliamentary decorum for hon members to be addressed the way the hon member is addressing them now. To say that an hon member hates another because of the colour of his skin is not conducive to upholding the dignity of this committee. I request the hon member to withdraw it.

Sir, I withdraw the statement that he hates me because of the colour of my skin. However I cannot run away from the fact that I am “not White”. By South African laws it is a fact. Because of the laws in South Africa I am a different person. They make me a person who is not acceptable.

In a joint committee I tried three or four times to ask that hon member a question. He refused to answer me and ignored me throughout.

Mr P L MARÉ: Why did you not report me to Mr Speaker as you threatened to do?

I want to say to the CP that they must not think that I support them because I am attacking the NP. That is simply not true. Their policy makes no sense whatsoever. It will not work in South Africa.

†It will bring this country to its knees. It will lead to poverty and take this country to where nobody wants to see it.

*Their policy is not even worth anything in a place where one throws things away. It is not even worth the paper on which it is written. Their policy should be abolished completely. We must try to find a policy which will accommodate the needs of South Africa. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the CP would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who helped to make this sitting of the committee a success. We are thinking especially of the South African Police who were of assistance to us at the parking lot and are responsible for our safety here. I also wish to express our sincere thanks and our condolences as regards the irreparable losses which were suffered on the border.

We also say thank you to the traffic officers and the personnel in this building, Hansard, the service officers, the secretaries, those who made coffee and everyone who helped. Without them Parliament could not have functioned here.

As regards the previous hon member, I want to say that his contribution was so emotional that one actually does not want to reply to it except to tell him that in the Transvaal alone more people voted for the CP on 26 October than the total number of Coloureds who voted in the 1984 election. [Interjections.]

As far as the hon member for Germiston District is concerned, he made a panicky and emotional speech this morning and said things which I really did not expect from him. It is very easy to expose him as a hypocritical politician because what the CP is doing everywhere in the Transvaal and in South Africa the NP is also doing everywhere in South Africa. [Interjections.] A Black is not permitted to set foot on a bus in Pretoria. A Black, Coloured or Indian is not permitted to go to the Fountains at Pretoria nor to the Warmbaths Recreational Resort either. Then that hon member dares to point a finger at the CP while four fingers are pointing at his hypocritical party. [Interjections.]

As regards the hon MEC Mr Mavuso, I merely want to say that squatting is certainly a subject with political overtones today. We were specifically waiting for the Government to provide answers on squatting because we think the Government is handling squatting incorrectly from the political point of view. The great shock which we received today was that this MEC who is responsible for squatting in the Transvaal simply evaded his responsibilities here and said that it was not a political subject and that he would not reply to questions on it. This turns his position into a farce.

The following is the worst, however. This hon MEC, who is evading his duties here, is not accountable to anyone. He has no voters. He has no colleagues who elected him. No, Sir, nobody can get rid of him like an ordinary representative, because the hon the State President forced him, and the other MECs who are sitting here, upon us. They can therefore even—as this hon MEC did this morning—get away with murder. This is the extent to which democracy has been destroyed in South Africa and the enormous extent to which autocracy has already grown!

The hon member for Langlaagte and the hon member for Benoni gave substance to the new NP of the future—a future regarding which so much uncertainty and confusion in fact exists today. The hon member for Langlaagte had the courage to say openly that both the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act and the Group Areas Act should be abolished. The hon member for … [Interjections.]

Of course he said that. He said that the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act should be abolished. He also said that the Group Areas Act should be abolished in the course of time. [Interjections.] If these Acts were abolished tomorrow, does this hon member nevertheless want to tell me that they are not being abolished? He must not be ridiculous now. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Benoni said that those towns which had not yet been approved should all be thrown open. This is also in the same sphere. We have the following to say to them. We will convey what they have said to the voters. We shall also consult their speeches in Hansard. We shall convey them in particular to the voters of Langlaagte and Benoni.

You can read my Hansard! I tell my voters this myself!

Mr Chairman, the voters of South Africa will also take note of the fact, as will the voters of Pretoria, that all their amenities are to be abolished. We must take note that nobody repudiated these two hon members and what they said is official NP policy. Next we must take note of the fact that the NP has finally drawn a line through its past, in which the principle of an own community life formed a cornerstone of its own. That cornerstone of an own community life lies shattered today.

We must take note of the fact that the NP’s leaders have become completely lacking in credibility; that guarantees which NP leaders gave the Whites of this country in the past are today not worth the paper on which they are printed. We must take note that the Whites will never trust the NP again. [Interjections.] South Africa must take note of this.

They will not believe you again either!

The hon temporary member for Meyerton can start singing his swan song because the election will be announced tomorrow and he is one of many here who will bid Parliament farewell on 20 September.

Koos, you still have some running to do! [Interjections.]

South Africa must take note of the fact that own amenities will no longer be reserved for Whites, that the Fountains in Pretoria will be open to all, that all bus services will be open to all, that all parks, all libraries, all residential areas and of necessity all schools will be thrown open in the course of time. [Interjections.] We shall fight this new NP policy in the coming election with every means at our disposal. [Interjections.]

I also found it exceptionally interesting that nobody spoke about the municipal elections of 26 October 1988. The NP is silent on the subject after they had actually said that they had fared exceptionally well. They are acting here as if they had a mandate to apply their current integration policy in the Transvaal. Did the hon chief leader of the NP not say that the NP had fared well. He added that the CP had fared badly and had received support in only a few tiny places in the Transvaal.

Permit me to disclose the truth here today—the truth about the municipal elections. There are eight health committees in the Transvaal. Of those the CP took six. There are 45 local area committees in the Transvaal. The CP has 33 of them under its control. There are 28 town councils in the Transvaal, of which the CP controls 19 and the NP only six. There are 65 city councils in the Transvaal. The CP controls 43 of them. The NP controls only 11. There are four large city councils in the Transvaal. The NP controls only three of them and, for every four votes which the NP drew in the elections for the large city councils, the CP drew three votes.

To summarise, the CP had 671 councillors elected as against the 403 of the NP. We control in 101 of those councils today; the NP only controls 32. We drew 42,4% of the votes; the NP drew 42,1%. The CP received 343 344 votes. The simple fact today is that the CP governs in the Transvaal and that it is CP policy—the hon the Administrator would do well to take note of this—which should be applied in the Transvaal. [Interjections.]

By the way, I want to say the following to my hon friends in the House of Representatives. Whereas the CP received 344 000 votes in the Transvaal last year, the total number of Coloured votes in the 1984 election in the Transvaal was a mere 35 000, and 272 000 in the whole of South Africa. The CP therefore has far more support in the Transvaal alone than the Coloureds have in the entire country. [Interjections.]

In the light of those election results the CP has the following to say. Because the CP won in the Transvaal, CP policy must be carried out in the Transvaal. [Interjections.] The CP received a mandate for this from the majority of voters—in a democratic manner as well. Furthermore the NP has no right to proceed with its integration plans in the Transvaal. The hon the Administrator and his MECs must take note of the mandate of the majority of White voters in the Transvaal. They must carry out that mandate; not the integration policy of the NP which has the support of the minority of voters. [Interjections.]

When the general election is held later this year—on 20 September—we shall eliminate most of the NP members who are sitting here today and also those in the rest of South Africa from Parliament and we shall become a CP power there which will ensure that our policy is applied and the integration policy of the NP rejected, as the voters of South Africa in fact reject it. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, this story about wiping the National Party from the face of the earth in a general election is something we also heard in 1987, and then the CP returned to Parliament with 22 seats. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, own residential areas is NP policy and will remain NP policy. [Interjections.] The NP is not, however, wedded to the method or mechanism involved in giving effect to an own community life. If proof were to be furnished, in practice, that that specific mechanism could not be implemented effectively, and if it were also proved, in practice, that that specific mechanism did not work, the NP would find a better mechanism which would ultimately preserve everyone’s community life on a non-discriminatory basis. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Nigel must restrain himself. He is talking altogether too loudly. The hon member Dr Geldenhuys may proceed.

Mr Chairman, both the hon member for Overvaal and the hon member for Nigel, when the latter spoke here, levelled an accusation at the system of provincial government, with specific reference to members of the Executive Committee, saying that these MECs were not responsible to anyone. If these MECs are really not responsible to anyone, what are we doing here now? Why, then, have those hon members taken their places behind this microphone? These MECs are responsible to elected members of Parliament. Do hon members of Parliament not represent voters and constituencies? Surely hon members are now calling these people to account.

Who appoints them?

Who appoints them is not the point. The point is simply that it is not necessarily true that if someone is not directly elected there is no system of responsible government. So the argument those hon members raised here does not hold water.

Can we dismiss them? [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, my contention is that this system of provincial government, of executive authority, has actually presented us with an example of how consensus government actually works, and I am saying this because of a remark the hon MEC Mr Mavuso made. [Interjections.]

Order! I notice that the hon member for Soutpansberg is making far too many interjections. I am asking all hon members to curtail their interjections. The hon member Dr Geldenhuys may proceed.

Mr Chairman, I also just want to make a remark about what the hon member for Soutpansberg and, I think, the hon member for Klip River South said about the finances allocated at regional services council level. Surely it is quite clear what the Act specifically states in regard to this point, ie that less developed areas should be given preference when it comes to the allocation of funds. In saying this, I do not mean that those less developed areas are without a colour connotation.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: My constituency is Klipspruit West and not Klipriviersoog or whatever.

My apologies to the hon member for Klipspruit West. However, that does not detract in any way from the statement I made.

I am not going to refer to the remarks made by the hon member for Carletonville. I think the hon member for Germiston District has settled matters with him quite effectively.

You did not know what he was talking about!

I knew very well what he was talking about. I do want to agree with him on one point, however, and that is that it is very clear that the hon member does not know what is going on in Carletonville.

Do you know what is going on in Randfontein?

I know full well what is going on in Randfontein.

You lost there by a wide margin.

Yes, I lost there, but I did not run off to Overvaal.

Your own people drove you out! [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Overvaal has made his speech. I am asking him not to make any further interjections. [Interjections ] The hon member for Carletonville would have had a turn to speak, but apparently he no longer has one. That does not, however, authorise him to make speeches from his seat. The hon member must also stop interjecting now.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: While you were addressing the hon member for Carletonville and he was listening to you, the hon member for Germiston District was chivvying him. He then responded to that. I respectfully suggest that the hon member for Carletonville was not being disrespectful to you.

Order! The hon member for Carletonville must stop interjecting now. The hon member Dr Geldenhuys may proceed.

Mr Chairman, I just want to make a remark about what the hon member for Rust Ter Vaal said. He said it was now time to get a firm grip on the reins and travel the road of reform. To the best of my knowledge it is specifically the LP that is, at this stage, boycotting every form of legislation relative to reform. [Interjections.] That is a fact, is it not? He must therefore not tell us to take a firm grip on the reins and move forward.

There is just something I must say, too, in connection with the argument that arose here about squatting. I am saying this to hon members of the LP and the PFP, and in this regard I am linking up with what was said by the hon member Mr Mavuso. It is a fact, is it not, that one cannot blame everything under the sun on apartheid or so-called apartheid. In South America there is no apartheid, but there is an enormous squatter problem. In Africa there is no apartheid, no Group Areas Act, but there is an enormous squatter problem. The way in which squatters are dealt with in Africa, and the way in which they are dealt with in South Africa, are as far removed as East from West.

That is what I told you people last year, but you made fun of me. Now you are saying the same thing.

If the hon member for Soutpansberg said that last year, he made a good point. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Overvaal had so much to say that I simply must react to a point he made about squatting. He said that we were running away from this problem. The hon member for Houghton pointed out that an Act was passed by Parliament, and even by the President’s Council, for the more effective control of illegal squatting. That is not, however, the only solution. It is therefore the NP’s point of departure that sufficient land should be made available to accommodate these people in a dignified manner. That land has been designated, and the result is that squatters who are squatting everywhere at present can be settled in an orderly fashion. That is how we tackle this problem.

There is a very urgent matter relating to Randfontein and the West Rand that I must touch upon here. It relates to the road network on the West Rand. I want to extend my sincere thanks to the MEC Mr Schoeman, who was entrusted with roads and is now retiring, and also to Mr Terblanche, for the brilliant work they have done in this sphere.

I think that South Africa and the Transvaal have a road network one can be proud of. I think that everyone who has had anything to do with it over the years deserves to be commended. There are a few shortcomings, however, and one major shortcoming on the West Rand lies in the fact that there is no real direct access route to Johannesburg or the East Rand. There is a wonderful access route to Pretoria—one does not stop once.

The West Rand has a backlog as far as industrial development is concerned. One of the reasons is that there is no direct access route. We are very grateful for route K96 which, we have gathered, is going to be constructed next year. There is, however, a problem. K96 runs through the newly planned section of Kagiso. This would mean that on that through route one would have to stop several times. At a later stage that route links up with the old High Ridge Road, which is a dual carriageway, but at a spot where there are already 18 robots. If one were therefore going to travel on the new K96 that runs through Kasigo, it means that one would have to make six to 10 more stops. There would consequently again be no direct access route to the central portion of Johannesburg.

That is not, however, the actual reason. Tell us why you do not want to travel through Kasigo and tell us on whose behalf you are now speaking.

I shall tell the hon member why I do not want to travel through that area. I was still developing my argument.

It passes through a Black town!

Order! The hon member for Soutpansberg must assist me. He must give the hon member Dr Geldenhuys an opportunity to carry on with his speech. The hon member Dr Geldenhuys may proceed.

I just want to say that we are grateful to have been given route K96, but I do want to ask whether consideration could not be given to making it a through route. Here I have statistics to indicate the cost to an industrialist on that second portion of the road with its 18 robots. If one bears in mind the extra fuel that is used when a car is idling, the man-hours that are lost, the vehicles growing old standing at the robots, as one industrialist put it to me, and the fact that it has been calculated that 10 000 vehicles per day move in both directions, one sees that the loss per 1 000 vehicles is R1 million per annum. We extend our thanks for route K96, but we are asking whether it cannot be made a through route. We are also asking—I know that many requests have been made for this—for route PWV16, which will eventually mean a tremendous amount to the West Rand, because there is going to be a large new Black town on the West Rand. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I want to react to what the previous speaker said. He said the LP was boycotting the reform process. Why are we here in Parliament, why are we taking part, why are we in the House of Representatives? It is because we have come to negotiate, but the NP does not want to negotiate with us. They keep on blocking us. We want to build a new future and a new South Africa on the ashes of apartheid. However, I do not want to waste my time on the hon member Dr Geldenhuys. I think this matter is clear.

I want to come back to the hon the Administrator. Just before I ended my speech yesterday, I made a proposal that the subsidies of all the local authorities whose library doors are not open for all racial groups, should be turned down.

In the whole of the Transvaal there is only one holiday resort for Coloureds and Indians. It is already fully booked for December. Nothing is being done about this state of affairs. I hope the hon the Administrator will take this matter seriously and develop Warmbaths. Let us forget about the technical things people are still looking at and go deeper into this matter.

Let us cut through all this red tape and continue with development of the new areas. I would like to warn the hon Administrator and the privileged Whites that they should get a move on with the reform process. We still have some patience, while we are here in this Chamber. Once the LP and other parties involved stop their negotiations there will be bloodshed in South Africa. However, we love our country and the hon Administrator should please hurry up.

It is a pity that Mr Kirstein is not here because I wanted to talk about the H F Verwoerd Hospital. [Interjections.] Thank you. I believe the hon MEC is in fact here. We are faced with endless problems. Things are really serious if one can have apartheid in food. When we had one kitchen at the H F Verwoerd Hospital we used to eat from the same pot, but separately. Now since the second kitchen has been opened, the food is horrible. A sick person does not want to see it, it makes that patient even more sick. [Interjections.] I notice Dr Van Wyk is not here. He must be running away. He should investigate what is happening in the second kitchen because things are horrible there. [Interjections.] Things are really horrible.

Then there is the casualty ward. When I go to the H F Verwoerd Hospital I no longer know the meaning of the word casualty. Somebody asked me to investigate it. When one takes a casualty patient one must take his pajamas and blankets out and go and sleep in the car, waiting for the doctor to come from the other end. The sister will keep on telephoning, telling the doctor that this is a seriously ill patient. The doctor will first ask how many patients there are. [Interjections.] If you go there at nine o’clock you will only leave at five o’clock the next morning. One first has to wait until there are a handful of patients and then the doctor will take his own time to come and treat the people. I want to appeal to Dr Van Wyk and I believe Mr Kirstein will not refuse him. Why can we not have some of our doctors helping out on a roster basis? They can help, but again I suppose the colour of their skin will not be allowed at the H F Verwoerd. [Interjections.]

Another problem at H F Verwoerd Hospital is that the Coloured wards are situated right at the end. I experienced this because I was one of the patients. I was taken from the one end to the other and pushed on a hard trolley on an old tarmac surface which was not comfortable at all. The sun was hot in an open area and I asked if that was really a good thing. After the operation I was again pushed into the sunlight.

Why did you not get sunburnt?

I do not know. Perhaps they treated me. [Interjections.] That business of taking patients from their ward to the theatre and from the theatre to the ward is a very serious matter. I wanted to ask the doctors, and specifically Dr Van Wyk, if it was healthy for 36 patients to share only one toilet and bathroom. There should be chairs in the ward.

It depends on your colour.

I suppose so, Mr Chairman. For the other colours it is healthy. Our patients at the one ward at the H F Verwoerd Hospital only have one toilet and bathroom and even the children’s ward has only one toilet. Is that healthy? I would like to tell Mr Kirstein that there are now apparently 33 hospitals which are becoming own affairs. When I heard this I thought there was going to be trouble because we know the meaning of this own affairs business. It is the extension of own affairs with which we are faced. That is what my hon colleague says we are opposing. That is what we find in own affairs. As far as we are concerned it is not own affairs, but we want things to be open for us. We want to enjoy our country. A person who comes from overseas and who has no idea about South Africa has more privileges than we who have been born here. Mr Kirstein should also remember that my surname is Da Gama. It is through my grandfather that his people are here today. He discovered the sea route to India and he showed the world where South Africa is. [Interjections.]

I would like to make another point about the hospitals. I spoke to the hon member for Middelburg in the House of Assembly, who said he would see to it. I have a Coloured sister who is better qualified than the Whites who are working at that hospital. However, her salary is lower than that of those people. Is that fair? [Interjections.] I think this is a matter of urgency because that is why people keep on saying that our people must be pushed to the one side. I was disappointed to hear that there is also apartheid at the Rob Ferreira Hospital, because I thought my colleague here was verlig and that he would improve things at that hospital. [Time expired.]

Business suspended at 12h47 and resumed at 14h02.

Afternoon Sitting

Mr Chairman, before I proceed with the main substance of my speech this afternoon I want to deal with a matter which I believe needs comment. I regret that the hon MEC Mr Olaus van Zyl is not here. [Interjections.] Oh, the hon MEC is here; I am sorry, I did not see him. [Interjections.] I refer to the report of the hon MEC that the Cabinet has already decided on a division of museums into own and general affairs museums.

Evidently three Transvaal provincial museums and four affiliated museums have been classified as general affairs museums and will continue to be administered by the Province “as a result of theme demarcation”, whatever that may mean. Three other Transvaal provincial museums and 11 affiliated museums will be proclaimed own affairs museums and will be transferred to the House of Assembly Department of Education and Culture.

This is the most unbelievable nonsense. It is incredibly stupid in concept. [Interjections.] How can we possibly believe that it is at all rational to make a ridiculous division like this? I know the hon MEC is a reasonable man and I cannot believe that he agreed with it. I can only believe that this has been forced on the Transvaal by the Cabinet and I hope something can be done about this.

In practical terms this sort of artificial division undoubtedly will cost the taxpayer more money at a time when we just cannot afford it. However, more importantly, let us look at it in terms of logical political advancement towards better race relations.

We in our party believe that differences between South Africans of different colours must be removed—we do not believe in segregation and in apartheid. The NP Government, on the other hand, claims that apartheid is dead but it continues to perpetuate apartheid—separateness—by actions like this. If the NP claims that racial barriers between South Africans are disappearing, they are just not telling the truth. All they are doing is developing a more insidious and sophisticated form of apartheid than they propagated previously.

How can museums be separated like this? Are museum exhibits separate? Does one look at pictures and say: “That is a Coloured picture, that is a White picture, that is an Indian picture”? Heaven knows what happens to Black pictures. [Interjections.] I just do not know how this sort of artificial division can take place. The hon member over there is shaking his head, saying “Ag nee”. Well, I would like to hear an explanation from him. [Interjections.]

I think one has to realise that we in South Africa should be breaking down barriers. We should not be perpetuating apartheid. We are all South Africans and we should be placing the stress on our common South Africanism. Therefore, this sort of separation, apart from being expensive, is just stupid and divisive. [Interjections.]

I would next like to come back briefly to the matter I discussed yesterday, namely the Transvaal division of nature conservation. There is no possibility at all that I am prepared to criticise the estimates for this department because they just do not get enough money at the moment. However, there is one item that I find interesting. On page 58 of the estimates, item B7, under the heading “Official Transport” an increase is shown from R1,151 million to R2,4 million—over a 100% increase and I would be interested to know the reasons for this increase.

Finally, on the subject of this department I would like to congratulate Dr Mulder and his team on doing a fine job with totally inadequate funding. I have a great deal of admiration for their activities and hope that the future priorities can be reorganised and additional funds can be made available.

I would now like to discuss Vote No 6—Roads and Bridges and in particular the hon the Administrator’s comments in his introductory speech concerning the privatisation of certain Government functions with respect to the establishment and maintenance of roads.

My own personal background is in the construction industry and I must say that over the years one has watched the operation of the provincial roads department with a somewhat jaundiced eye. The watchword appeared to be that time was no object when it came to the construction of new roads and bridges.

To any private enterprise operation, of course, time is not only of the essence but time is also money. Time is important to private enterprise, not only because overhead costs continue no matter how long a job continues, and the longer a project takes to complete the more it costs. Time is also important when one uses expensive machinery, such as bulldozers, graders or tipper trucks. They must not be allowed to stand idle but must be used to the optimum if one is to get maximum value and return on the capital investment involved.

The Transvaal Roads Department has always had a reputation of having had the best machinery and equipment and so often one saw machinery standing idle, something that no private enterprise company could afford. There is no doubt at all in my mind that the profit motive gives an urgency and a drive that ensure maximum possible efficiency. The absence of the profit motive regrettably seems to take the edge off that efficiency and drive, and the result is that it is likely to cost the taxpayer considerably more. We in our party believe that private enterprise operations not only are in the best interests of the taxpayer, but also are a stimulant to the economy.

I know that things have changed somewhat in recent years—and I am talking about a few years ago—in terms of what that department has been doing. Nevertheless I believe that the time has come for a major re-evaluation of maintenance operations on our provincial roads. I am not convinced that our present operations are the most economic. I believe that one has to look at established infrastructure, permanent road camps and permanent staff. All these contribute to an overhead cost which I believe must be re-assessed at this stage.

I welcome the hon the Administrator’s statement that privatisation possibilities have already been identified. I would welcome some knowledge of when this is likely to come about and I hope that the hon MEC responsible for roads will inform the Committee of some sort of time scale for this possible privatisation. I must urge the acceleration of privatisation. I believe that privatisation is urgently needed if the burden on provincial finances is to be made lighter.

I would say that the hon member for Klipspruit West expressed himself as if he were against privatisation but he was talking about toll roads. I am in no way expressing approval for toll roads, which in some instances have been put into operation in the most ill-advised manner. I am talking about privatisation of for instance the building of roads and the maintenance of roads.

The next matter that I would like to discuss this afternoon has to do with provincial libraries. The hon the Administrator referred to the fact that there is a decrease of R300 000 in the draft estimates for this Vote, and that this decrease is attributable to the reduction of subsidies to local authorities and to the reduced purchasing of books. I think we are all very well aware of the fact that the major fall in the value of the rand has resulted in a major escalation in the cost of buying books. Imported books and imported materials for locally produced books have jumped in price to a most alarming degree.

In these circumstances a reduction in book buying inevitably means that many books which normally would be bought for our libraries, are being left out. Sadly this means a deterioration in our library services at a time when the man in the street can ill afford to purchase books for himself. I myself have noticed the steady deterioration in my local library in respect of new acquisitions. Many books which should be coming to us through our libraries, are not doing so, and we are the poorer for it.

I am afraid to say that this is just another sacrifice that has had to be made because we have a Government that has brought us to our present desperate economic situation as a result of its policies. It is just another price that South Africa has to pay because of apartheid. The rest of the world, rightly or wrongly, finds it necessary to express its disapproval of our policies by means of economic pressure. I am afraid that all the good intentions—and we have heard many good intentions—expressed by speakers from Nationalist Party benches, will not change the situation.

National Party. National—the adjective.

Nationalists will do for me, Sir. [Interjections.] The world has grown tired of Nationalist Party hypocrisy and only real action towards the abolition of all the apartheid legislation will change their opinions. [Interjections.] We have seen precious little of that action.

Mr P L MARÉ: Who is your new leader?

That hon member again asks who is my new leader. We have a very fine leadership team, and we will show what that leadership team can do. [Interjections.] When it comes to reform all we have had from the Nationalist Party so far is words, words and words. Precious little action is what it adds up to. [Interjections.] As long as we have a NP Government, we will have a deterioration in the quality of our life. [Interjections.] We are going to be poorer. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman and hon members, I should like to react further to aspects raised by hon members in connection with local government and library and museum services. To link up with what I said yesterday about election results, I want to express my regret at the fact that the hon member for Overberg could not complete his speech about election results. I think it is, in fact, an important aspect that should be addressed. I want to state unequivocally, and give hon members the assurance that we are not trying to mislead anyone with the figures we furnish. The percentage vote is based on the actual registration and on estimated population figures. These figures are also monitored by another body and are not, in other words, merely our figures. I am speaking, in particular, of the election results of Black local authorities which have been quite an issue recently. I have the figures before me, but unfortunately I do not have enough time to give hon members those figures. As I said yesterday, I want to invite anyone who doubts the figures to come to us with better figures. We would gladly examine them.

In the light of the figures and statistics I have received, it is my personal opinion that as far as the overall figures are concerned—I do not want to speak about detailed figures—which we can, in fact, monitor, we are probably not more than 10% or 15% wide of the mark either way. In other words, we are in the right “ball-park”. Because the population figures are estimated figures, however, one can naturally not say that they are accurate to the nearest one percentage point.

†Once again I should like to give the hon member for Houghton the assurance that we do not regard the good election results as a reflection of the residents’ satisfaction with their conditions. We acknowledge that there are many serious problems and we are very concerned about them. We are assisting the local authorities in addressing and solving these problems. I think we have made some progress in this regard in the past year. I should also like to repeat that the RSCs, the South African Housing Trust, the Development Bank and the National Housing Commission spent R566 million in Black areas during the past year. The money was spent on much needed projects and I hope that assisted the local authorities in improving the conditions of the people.

We are also very sensitive in regard to our relations with these local authorities. We believe in communication, not only with them but also with the residents and other interest groups. Local authorities are autonomous bodies and they should be regarded as such. Unfortunately many local authorities—but on the other hand fortunately not all of them—are financially dependent. I told hon members yesterday of the way in which we are addressing this problem.

Although we are in principle against the total writing off of arrears rentals and service moneys, I should like to repeat what I said yesterday. This is a complicated and involved matter and there could be some justification in considering specific powers for writing off arrears moneys in some cases.

I should also like to compliment the City Council of Soweto on the investigations they have already conducted and on certain actions they have already taken. Reference was made in this debate to a recent “plan act” document. Many of the items contained in that document have already been addressed by the Soweto Council. They held a meeting from 10 to 12 December 1988 where many of these items were discussed. They drew up a programme of action so that they could address these problems even further. They still have many problems—some of the most serious ones in the country—and I should like to wish them strength and wisdom in their task. We are willing to assist them in whatever way they may deem necessary.

*I should also like to refer to certain questions and viewpoints of the hon member for Carletonville. Firstly he spoke about the question of Venterspos. It is true that a further report was received during the second half of February of this year—after discussions that took place in December of last year—from the Westonaria town council, a report which is receiving attention at present and which has also been submitted to the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing, Mr A Venter, for his consideration. Mr Venter, who has dealt with the housing portfolio in the past and must now, after the transfer of functions, also deal with the local government portfolio, will largely have to react to many of these issues. Where possible we shall make a contribution, and at present we are giving attention to the relevant report.

I want to say, however, that this is a very complex problem. In the past there have also been several investigations which have varied from the removal of people to the redevelopment of the area, and also the establishment of a proper financial base that does not exist at present. Consequently a great deal of money is involved in this. I agree with the hon member that it is essential for the inhabitants to be given some certainty as quickly as possible.

The hon member asked certain questions about Zuurbekom—the area to the west of Soweto. He said that the Prevention of Illegal Squatting Amendment Act had been in operation for six months now. That Act was promulgated on 8 February 1989, less than two months ago. [Interjections.] At present the necessary regulations, required in terms of the Act, are being drawn up.

The hon member said that when he and I, together with the councillors and officials of Westonaria, held discussions with a number of inhabitants and people from the local school, he had said that nothing should happen. Let us look at the facts. Apart from that meeting, attended on 4 July by senior officials of the Administration and I, we immediately launched a subsequent investigation, as I told the people that day we would.

It should be borne in mind that the Department of Constitutional Development and Planning conducted prior investigations into this site. At the beginning of July the hon the Minister issued a statement about the areas. Subsequently the question was placed in the hands of the administration for further investigation into the implementation of relevant Cabinet resolutions. We immediately set to work and commenced our investigations. On 5 October my colleague, Dr Hoods, MEC, and I called a meeting of all the local authorities in the area and all population groups with an interest in that specific area. We made submissions and asked for their comments. There was also a very interesting discussion. Interesting contributions were made. On 5 December, after a great deal of hard work, the hon the Deputy Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning announced that the whole area was to become a section 33 area. On 4 July, when we were at Zuurbekom, the people told me that the most important aspect of all was that they wanted certainty—whether they agreed or disagreed. On 5 December those people were given that certainty. Once again, I do not know whether they agree with that, but at least they now know where they stand. That was the undertaking I gave on 4 July, and I did my level best to adhere to that undertaking.

I am very grateful to our officials and those of the Department of Constitutional Development and Planning who supported us. Meanwhile we are proceeding promptly, and with a sense of urgency, with the planning of that area, because the Administrator and the Executive Committee have indicated that it is no use merely designating an area for housing. We will only begin to get results once the people start settling there. We are working towards that.

I have indicated previously, and so has the Deputy Minister, that we are prepared to investigate the agricultural holdings to the south of the Potchefstroom road. We are doing so, and we agree that we must also give those people some certainty as quickly as possible. We hope we shall be able to do so soon.

I do not want to express any opinions about law enforcement—that is not my responsibility—but I am asking the following question at this stage: If the area is soon to become a section 33 area, is one being at all responsible and sensible in prosecuting people at this stage?

The hon member for Eersterus asked a number of questions about libraries.

†First of all he remarked that he was given an answer that all provincial libraries were open to all races. He questioned the correctness of the facts provided. May I say that there are no provincial libraries that render services directly to the general public. The provincial library renders services in the form of books, professional advice and subsidies to local authorities. The hon member’s information is thus not correct.

The hon member also asked whether the amount budgeted for under Vote 2, subject H, item 7 also provided for the training of people of colour. Yes, provision is made for the training of staff of all affiliated public libraries and of this amount, almost R12 000 provides for the training of librarians in the PWV area and especially Black library staff where there is a desperate need for training.

*The hon member also asked to have all libraries opened up to all races and said that we should not pay subsidies to those that did not do so. Last year, and in the past too, I have reacted in detail to the open and closed question, indicating what our policy was. I also did so in the joint committee two days ago. May I just say that in the past year we have paid out R316 000 in subsidies, which is a mere drop in the ocean, because our major service is actually that of providing books, records and art prints, etc. Of that amount, R95 000 has been paid out to White local authorities, R26 000 to Coloured local authorities, R19 000 to Indian local authorities and R174 000 to Black local authorities.

Let me also react to the hon member for Rust Ter Vaal who advocated the establishment of libraries in the Western Transvaal. During the past few days we sent him a letter in reply to a question about Bloemhof, and in that letter we indicated that if those communities provided the buildings and the staff, we would very gladly supply the books and the other advice they asked for.

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon MEC please?

Unfortunately I have only one minute left, and I should like to conclude my speech. The hon member is very welcome …

It is actually a point of order, because there are no Coloured and Indian local authorities.

Order! The hon member may proceed.

Local government bodies—I gladly correct the hon member.

I do not have sufficient time to react to others who put forward fairly general views. I merely want to tell the hon member for Bryanston that I agree with him that it is very regrettable that the amount for books has been reduced. In future we shall try to obtain more money for that.

In conclusion I merely want to say that I think the most important aspect in solving our country’s problems lies in relationships between all people and also in the establishment of mutual confidence. That is why it upset me when a few hon members stood up here today and spoke with hatred and bitterness. [Interjections.] We can disagree with one another politically, and in fact we do, but I think we should respect and trust one another. I am very grateful to be able to serve on an executive committee in which this is, in fact, the case.

Mr Chairman, firstly I will record my appreciation to the members of the Executive Committee, especially Dr Hoods and Mr Van Zyl for the answers supplied to me with regard to some queries that I raised yesterday. I also want to express my appreciation to the MEC in charge of hospital services, Mr Kirstein. However, he did not answer my question as to the criteria applied for the appointment of the hospital board. I wanted to know what criteria he used for the appointment of the hospital board members.

Why did he not ask the hon the Minister? He recommended it.

Mr Chairman, I will leave that as it is. I will continue where I left off yesterday with regard to the issue of groups areas permits.

I was saying that in areas which have become mixed areas such as Bez Valley, Mayfair, Windmill Park and to a certain extent, Houghton, permits simply to occupy should not be issued for these areas. Permits should be issued to acquire and occupy. It is a fait accompli now that people residing in these areas are going to stay there. That egg cannot be unscrambled. Despite the recommendations of the Free Settlement Areas Board, one has to look at the possibility of issuing permits for acquiring and occupying such areas.

With regard to local government, I am a little disappointed that the MEC in charge of local government has spoken before me and will not be coming back to answer some of the questions that I have. In his report issued to us mention is made of orientation courses. My question to him is whether these orientation courses are exclusively for a particular race group or whether they are for all. If they are confined strictly to the Black population group, then why is that so? Why are they not open to the other population groups and the governing body which is the Transvaal Association of Management Committees?

I agree with him in terms of his report where he wants a uniform system. I want to ask what recommendations have been made from his department’s side to the own affairs Ministers to have legislation made uniform. We certainly would support that from our side. We would support legislation for unifying local government. We would reject the acceptance of local government as an own affair. There is a clear distinction between the two.

I also note with regard to devolution of power, the deregulation of power and the 116 different functions or powers which have been devolved to management committees. Barring one or two cases, I want to make it absolutely clear that deregulation or devolution of power and autonomy are separate issues. I know it is government policy to have local management committees accept autonomy for that area but talking about autonomy in Coloured and Indian management areas is waving the red flag in front of a bull. They will not accept autonomy. Barring Ennerdale in the south of Johannesburg, I think for all the other areas, whether they are viable and have the financial base or not, autonomy is totally unacceptable. [Interjections.] That is the official policy of Tamcom as well.[Interjections.]

About the 22 sections which have been amended, I want to know whether, when these amendments are proposed, the other bodies beside TMA have been consulted. Have Umsa, Tamcom etc been consulted; if not, why not?

Ask them!

I am asking. [Interjections.] I want to refer to something which has already been raised and that is in regard to squatters. In the hon the Administrator’s report, he says the amendments to the Prevention of Illegal Squatting Act were approved. This Act was not approved by the Houses of Representatives or Delegates simply because we knew of the repercussions that it would have. The amendments were approved by the President’s Council and we all know the President’s Council is an appointed body with a built-in majority of the governing party.

This is the reason why we did not approve it. We knew the repercussions it would have. We are now faced with the problem where we have squatters on land owned by either the House of Representatives or the House of Delegates. The Government has taken away this problem from the NP and has left it on the doorstep of the Indian and Coloured people. We have a time bomb ticking there because no Indian or Coloured person is going to go there and evict those people.

I agree and concede that squatting is a universal problem. However, the difference we have to understand in South Africa is that that problem is compounded by the Group Areas Act and the Land Tenure Act. The Land Tenure Act did not permit Black people to purchase land outside the so-called Bantustans or reserves. That is a problem we have in South Africa.

I want to respond to the hon member for Carletonville. I do not want to talk to him in Afrikaans. However, I can boast about my good English. English is the other official language of this country. I want to respond to him in English—if he does not understand it is fine. He referred to the squatters being an aggressive people living in Zuurbekom and said that they were posing a certain kind of threat to a mother and daughter living there. That is not true. The squatter community is not a violent community. He can ask the hon member for Turffontein, who undertook a tour of the squatter camps in Vlakfontein and Weiler’s Farm and he will tell the hon member the kind of people that are living there. The squatter community is not a violent community.

That is not the right community!

Whether that is the right community or not, that hon member has to live with that community for the rest of his life. He cannot wish them away.

They are going to be his voters next time!

I hope so, Sir. The problem we have with squatters is that the hon MEC Mr Mavuso who spoke about squatters indicated that some provision had to be made so that the business people in the area could contribute to the building of informal houses for squatter settlements in that area. I can give that hon MEC an undertaking here and now that we will get the provisions to build informal housing. However, he must give us the undertaking that those squatters will not be moved from there and that they will be housed exactly where they are living at the moment; then we can provide informal housing for them.

We have a squatter settlement of approximately 22 000 in and around Lenasia. The concentration points are Grasmere, Vlakfontein and Weiler’s Farm. We tried last year to move some of them. They have moved half a kilometre down the road to a place called Sweetwaters.

The idea is not to provide informal housing far away for these squatters. It is urbanisation that has caused the squatters to move closer to their place of employment. This is the problem we are facing. The own affairs administration will not take the responsibility of bulldozing these people. They are not squatters out of choice. We had small pockets of organised squatting which have not been eliminated. Those squatters who are living there are doing so out of necessity. Since the 1950s the Government has refused to provide housing for these Black people. The same could happen to my community—or any other community.

I would like to know what the Provincial Administration’s standpoint is with regard to the provision of services for these squatters in their present residential camps or settlements. We cannot allow people to continue living there without providing them with essential services such as water, sewage and basic electricity. We have the situation near Everton—I think the place is called Wildebeesfontein—where certain services have been provided. However, that is too far away for these people, who work in the major metropolitan areas like Johannesburg, to travel.

To say that squatting is not a political problem and that one should not expect answers from him—I think—is a very irresponsible statement. As long as squatting is going to be a problem in our areas and affect people of colour we are going to raise it. This is why we have said that we are going to participate and highlight these issues.

You do it for political gain! That is the difference.

So what! [Interjections.]

The hon member says that I am doing it for political gain. Those people do not have parliamentary representation. Somebody has a right to speak on their behalf. When the hon member for Houghton spoke she did not speak for political gain. She spoke for the plight of those people. [Interjections.]

One of the other hon members also said yesterday that this entire parliamentary system is an own affairs system. I admit it is an own affairs system. We do not deny that. However, every hon elected member of Parliament gave a pledge to his constituency that he would use this forum to dismantle apartheid. This is why we are here.

We are going to use and exploit every forum to dismantle that hated own affairs concept because ultimately we will all want to see one parliamentary system. I can tell hon members now that it is going to happen. There is going to be a ganging up so that there will be one parliamentary system between the PFP, the House of Representatives and the House of Delegates. Then they are going to hold the NP to ransom. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Lenasia East will forgive me if I do not follow on what he had to say in full detail. However, the point is that the hon MEC referred to squatting as being a worldwide phenomenon not due to apartheid or the system we have in South Africa.

It is compounded by the Group Areas Act!

If that is true, why do we have squatters all over Africa and the world where there is no apartheid?

*I do not want to allow myself to be led astray by the hon member for Lenasia East.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: My constituency is Lenasia Central. Sir, may I ask the hon member a question?

No, Sir, I am not prepared to take a question. I apologise—his constituency is Lenasia Central.

*I do not want to allow myself to be led astray by the hon member for Lenasia Central. I think it would be wrong if he were to lead the hon member for Pretoria Central astray. I should like to react to what the CP said in this debate.

I want to refer to the hon member for Soutpansberg. He became very nervous about an interjection made by the hon member for Turffontein regarding the agricultural union in the Soutpansberg constituency. Let us consider the facts. Never before has a constituency deteriorated under the control of an hon member as that constituency has since that hon member took control there. What is more, his chief commandant Mr Koeks Terreblanche suffered a tremendous beating—15 votes to 59 in that agricultural union election. I understand the hon member’s nervousness.

Sir, the chairman and all the hon chairmen of the Commodities Committees of the agricultural union of the Soutpansberg constituency are Nationalists, and then he presumes to have the right to tell the hon member for Hercules he is working out his notice. He must look at himself. We will look at ourselves, but he has trouble in Soutpansberg.

I want to come to the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition. I am sorry he is not here. I would have liked him to be here, but I understand if he is not here. Last year on 23 August—the first day of the provincial committee meeting—he issued a statement to the Press. I want to read out part of this statement to hon members. He said:

That is still true!

The hon member says that is still true. Yesterday the hon member for Carletonville came along and said the only reason why the CP boycotted last year’s debate was because of the incorrect allocation of time. Who is now right? I want to tell the hon member that either the hon member for Carletonville is wrong or right or their hon leader is wrong or right.

However, I want to tell the hon member for Pietersburg who is so quick to react that this was an election ploy of theirs. It was another election ploy of the CP, because the same evening the hon member held a meeting in the Hendrik Verwoerd High School hall in the Innesdal constituency, with a view to the municipal elections on 26 October. I want to tell the hon member that today he witnessed another election ploy because whereas the CP boycotted this debate last year, the hon member for Overvaal came along and said: “Get rid of everyone from the teaboy up. Thank you for this wonderful day we are able to have in this meeting.”

We also thank them, but this is an election ploy. I am not saying this in a derogatory fashion. I am saying that they are resorting to an election ploy, because that hon member came along and predicted an election for later this year. The hon member is introducing transparent, shallow and weak propaganda into a debate in which it does not belong.

All you are doing is making a noise!

I shall get to the hon member for Middelburg later. He spoke about election ploys. I shall discuss his election ploys later.

The hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly said yesterday that there were going to be appointments and that he wanted to get something off his chest. I could just as well not react to that. [Interjections.] The question is whether he has or will recommend a Nationalist for any appointment.

There are none who are worth while appointing.

No, let me set the hon member straight. The MEC, Mr Fanie Schoeman, has pointed out clearly to them that their facts in connection with the appointments are yet again not correct; they are yet again half-truths.

But you are asking.

Order! The hon member for Nigel must make fewer interjections.

The CP is complaining about appointments to councils, but let us examine the hon member for Middelburg’s instructions. He has given all CP-controlled town councils and local area committees instructions to the effect that they must consider the political sentiments of a person and not his competence before appointing him. That is an absolute disgrace. It is absolute opportunism. Yesterday the same hon member spoke about political corruption and then he tried to link this to the NP in an underhand way.

It is the truth.

No, it is not the truth. I am going to tell the hon member that it is a blatant untruth. The CP is guilty of this and I can tell him about it. I am going to tell the hon member about it now. After all, the hon member for Middelburg did issue instructions to the CP councils that in future all advertisements for vacancies which arose had to be advertised in the Patriot.

Yes.

Do hon members know what they are doing? I want to ask the MEC Mr van Zyl whether the CP has started to use one organisation, the Transvaal Board for the Development of Peri-Urban Areas. I am taking one example—Klipriviervallei. There they are misusing taxpayers’ money to keep the battling Patriot going to the tune of approximately R1 000 per month. Officials are receiving instructions, they are being misused and manipulated to have advertisements placed in the CP newspaper by a local area committee controlled by the CP. Surely this is a disgrace. Surely this is the worst kind of political corruption.

Go a little further.

A finer example is Phalaborwa. In Phalaborwa a person’s address determines whether or not he may use the sports stadium and other facilities, because the council decision is that a Black from Phalaborwa may not use it, whereas a Black from Pietersburg may. They are opportunists. I want to ask the MEC to take very serious steps regarding this advertisement issue. Never in its wildest dreams has the NP considered having advertisements supported by the Government placed in its mouthpiece, Die Nasionalis. They are engaged in corruption. [Interjections.]

I want to come to the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly again. Yesterday he spoke about Northam. He knows I am very well acquainted with that part of the world and I think he is very glad I have left there.

In those days you were a UP supporter, not so?

He objected to the Black township which has to be established at Northam. What is interesting about this? Is he suggesting that former UP supporters must not vote for them? Is that what they are saying? If the former UP supporters vote against them, they will no longer be in Parliament.

But you were a UP supporter and a Nat within the space of five minutes.

Then they will no longer be in Parliament. While the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly is objecting to the fact that there has to be a Black township at Northam, the CP-controlled Marico—in the neighbouring constituency of the hon member for Lichtenburg—is asking for a Black township to be given back to them. The need for a Black township at Northam is quite clear. It is for the mines that are spending millions of rands to accommodate their Black workers and their families and over and above this, this will also encourage stability in that area. Now the question is—it seems to me as if the hon member for Soutpansberg or the hon member for Pietersburg will reply on behalf of their leader—whether they can give me an indication as to whether they are going to prohibit their CP members from operating and opening businesses in that new Black township at Northam? Yes or not? Or are they going to carry on with the double standards being applied at Northam at the moment?

I want to give the facts in connection with Northam. The facts in connection with Northam are the following. Let me say at once that I have nothing against the chairman of the CP’s area committee Mr Claude du Plooy and his family, but am against the double standards of the CP. The self-same Mr du Plooy who is the chairman of the CP in Northam, who is the so-called mayor of Northam, is using an Indian on a nominee system to manage a shop in the White business area of Northam as well as his General Dealers. Even worse—his daughter and son-in-law, Mr and Mrs Pohl, who are also members of the CP area committee there, make a living out of a Black hairdressing salon and a muti shop in the White business area.

That is why they won the elections.

Those are the facts.

They are casting a spell on the people.

The question being put to the CP is whether they condemn this behaviour or approve it. If they remain silent we will do what the CP is doing and say that this is now CP policy, they approve it and then I want to tell the Press to go to Northam in the Waterberg constituency, because there are wonderful examples of double standards and political swindles in the constituency of the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly. I will help the Press to ferret them out. I will take the Press to each and every one of them. Give it to the people. Tell the businessmen of Carletonville that this is how matters stand in the constituency of the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly.

I want to discuss the debate on television on Sunday evening. On Sunday evening the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly said that the CP’s policy had a deep-rooted religious foundation. Does it have a religious foundation? This is a disgrace they will have to justify it to the voters and the House.

Your nonsense doesn’t bother me.

The hon member is going to get hurt in Soutpansberg. He must keep quiet.

The NP’s policy is a positive one. It is a policy which puts South Africa first and does not put party political opportunism first. In saying this I am thanking the hon the Administrator and his administration most sincerely for what they are doing and the spirit in which they are doing it. They are winners. He and his administration are winners for my generation—the younger generation—in this country.

Mr Chairman, thank you very much for another opportunity to react to what has happened during the course of the day.

At the outset I want to say that we do not have money to throw around. Hon members heard that at this stage there is a deficit of R242 million if the hospital services are to be run at the present level. I also told hon members that we were hopeful of obtaining that money since we could not do otherwise. Nevertheless, hon members made one request after another. We cannot hand out. We do not possess a bag of money. We cannot simply produce it. Hon members who have friends in high places should therefore do their duty and see what we can obtain in order to provide hospital services.

This year only 70% of the speakers discussed hospital services. Last year it was more than 80%. I am disappointed because it seems as if we are deteriorating. However, I want to thank hon members for the interest they showed. I appreciate it.

I want to make one matter very clear to hon members. Many hon members repeatedly referred to empty beds in White hospitals and in particular in the Johannesburg Hospital. Within the next few days a delegation from the Johannesburg hospital board and the Witwatersrand University will be meeting the hon the Administrator. Do hon members know why? There are so many patients who could be treated in this hospital, but they do not have the money or the staff to do so. They want to enlist the hon the Administrator’s aid so that they can appoint more staff, because they need the staff for training purposes. This indicates only one thing to hon members, viz that there is no lack of patients for the hospital beds in the Johannesburg Hospital or elsewhere, only a lack of funds for this purpose.

I cannot, and I think every hon member in this Committee will agree with me, start closing down beds at the Baragwanath Hospital because of a lack of funds. Surely hon members appreciate that? Where must I close down beds? I do it in Johannesburg, because the people who are affected by this are people who can pay for themselves. They are members of medical aid funds and they have medical cards and can make use of the available private hospitals. That is why there are empty beds in the Johannesburg Hospital.

Now hon members can tell me that people who cannot be accommodated in the Baragwanath Hospital or wherever, should be admitted to the Johannesburg Hospital. It has nothing to do with a lack of patients; it is a lack of staff and funds.

Why did you build it?

Mr Chairman, I want to reply to hon members’ speeches as quickly as possible. I realise that I will not get round to answering each and every one.

†I must point out to the hon member for Sandton that the Hospital Services Branch has not received any request for a trauma service for Sandton to date. However, the private sector and city council of Alexandra has approached the Hospital Services Branch with regard to the rendering of casualty and out-patient services at a private day hospital to be erected at Alexandra. These negotiations have not proceeded further than initial discussions.

The hon member for Sandton mentioned the problem of motor accident cases and the problem which the private sector is confronted with as far as payment by the Motor Vehicle Accident Fund is concerned. In this regard I wish to state that motor vehicle accidents are governed by the Motor Vehicle Accidents Act which is administered by the Motor Vehicle Accident Fund for the Department of Transport and not by any health legislation. I suggest that the hon member direct his request to the said department.

*Since he is an attorney I shall not send him an account for this advice.

†I told the hon member for Lenasia Central that when the hospital board of Lenasia was appointed, it was done on the recommendation of the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare in the House of Delegates. He asked me how they were appointed and what criteria were used. I do not know. I have appointed the people on the recommendation of the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare. The hon member must ask the hon the Minister what criteria he used.

The hon member for Northern Transvaal enquired about the upgrading of the services at the Pietersburg Hospital. The hon member for Pietersburg must also listen to my reply. I want to point out that the Executive Committee has already approved the upgrading of the facilities at the Pietersburg Hospital. Due to the erection of the Mankweng Hospital and the Seshegu Community Health Centre in close proximity to Pietersburg Hospital, the upgrading was held in abeyance. However, the service still remains on our priority list for capital services.

The hon member for Northern Transvaal requested that we open hospitals to all races, especially in the Northern Transvaal towns of Louis Trichardt, Warmbaths and Brits. I suggest that he has a meeting with the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare in the House of Assembly as soon as possible …

Oh, Piet Promises!

Whatever his name is, the hon member must try to make some arrangement with him in this regard. It is not our function any longer.

I want to ask the hon member for Klipspruit West what the hon member for Overvaal looks like to him and what his opinion of the hon member for Overvaal’s performance is? Their performances here are mirror images of each other. [Interjections.]

[Inaudible.]

The hon member for Northern Transvaal also brought complaints of the community of Buysdorp to my attention. Last night I telephoned the superintendent of Pietersburg Hospital who controls this hospital and he assured me that he did not know of a single person who had been sent away from the hospital at Louis Trichardt.

As far as his enquiry about hospital boards is concerned, in terms of own affairs matters the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare in the House of Assembly will in future appoint the members of White hospital boards and the hon member must approach him in this regard. The policy is that members of hospital boards for Black hospitals must be of the same race group and the same policy applies to Indian and Coloured hospital boards.

The hon member for Eersterus also asked me whether there were any Coloured or Indian hospital board members. I have a list here with the names of hospitals where this is the case. The following hospitals are included: Barberton, H F Verwoerd, Klerksdorp, Boksburg, Benoni, Rob Ferreira, Rietfontein, Sterkfontein, Lenasia, Laudium and Coronation.

May I get that list?

The hon member can ask my executive director for it. I want to refer to the hon member for Eersterus.

*The hon member for Eersterus referred to the poor facilities in the second kitchen of the H F Verwoerd Hospital. I want to point out to the hon member that both kitchens fall under the same supervision and the same staff and that patients of all race groups have a choice of the meals they want to eat. In other words, should someone want a meal from the other kitchen, he is entitled to have it.

With reference to the long distances and uneven surfaces over which patients are transported …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The food from the two kitchens is not the same.

That is not a point of order. The hon MEC may continue.

The abovementioned facilities are to be demolished.

In respect of the hon member’s comment on insufficient toilet facilities, I want to point out to him that the ideal norm for the provision of toilets is one toilet per eight beds. In the case of the Coloured wards at the H F Verwoerd Hospital there is at present one toilet for every nine beds.

The hon member went on to say that there was disparity in the salaries of qualified nurses. That is not true and if there is such a case, the hon member should please contact the Executive Director of Hospital Services. That is not our policy and it is definitely not the case. [Interjections.]

I am leaving a lot out because unfortunately time is catching up with me. I have only a few minutes left. The hon member for Rust Ter Vaal complained about ambulances which had clocked hundreds or thousands of kilometres. The hon member was generalising and did not refer to a specific case which could be investigated. [Interjections.] If the hon member really has a complaint, he must bring it to our attention so that it can be investigated. However, when he generalises in telling stories of that nature, an investigation cannot take place, because I do not know where to begin. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Newclare repeatedly spoke about the J G Strijdom Hospital. It may be news to many hon members, but the J G Strijdom Hospital is an own affairs hospital and I want to suggest that this matter also be mentioned to the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare, Mr Badenhorst. One hundred beds should be available in the Lenasia Hospital for Indians who at present are in the Coronation Hospital. There should be a lot of space then. There is a lot that I should like to say to the hon member, but unfortunately there is no time. I do not know where the hon member is at the moment, but he should read the ordinance … [Interjections.]

I shall give it to him.

I want to give him a copy of the ordinance in which a board member’s duties are defined. It is a board member’s duty to see to the neatness and hygiene in hospitals. In terms of the ordinance a board member should inspect hospitals at least every three months and if he has problems with a superintendent … [Interjections.] The superintendent of the Coronation Hospital is one of the best young doctors in our service. No one is better than he. [Interjections.] Should the hon member have any complaints in this regard, he can contact my director with the greatest of pleasure. He is always ready to listen to complaints.

I should very much have liked to reply to the hon member for Pietersburg, but time does not allow me to do so. However, I think the hon member for Parktown launched an effective attack on his medical ethics.

Do you agree with him?

I agree with the hon member. He did it tactfully. I am tempted to say that I am also ashamed that the hon member, who is such a decent man, acted in such a way. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I was very pleasantly surprised by the speech made by the hon member for Pretoria Central. The hon member amused me and I want to congratulate him on his fine speech.

I would be neglecting my political duties if I did not react to what the hon member for Reigerpark said here yesterday. Unfortunately he is not present at the moment. The hon member started his speech by saying jokingly how much he would like to stop a train at every station and jump off. Consciously or unconsciously the hon member gave us an insight into his life because he has a tendency to join and leave all the political parties. It is impossible for me to count on the fingers of both my hand the number of political parties he has already been a member of. The hon member spoke about his personal mishaps—and I do not want to ridicule him—but during the past two years there were three other serious mishaps he did not refer to yesterday. These mishaps occurred in the form of byelections in the Transvaal, and no hospital could help him.

I want to thank the hon MEC Mr O Van Zyl sincerely for the remarks he made yesterday and assure him that I shall discuss the matter with the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council in the House of Representatives and give him a reply soon.

†Yesterday the hon member for Matroosfontein referred to reform. Regrettably that hon member has not the slightest concept of the real meaning of reform. However, I do not wish to sound derogatory. Although he belongs to the Democratic Reform Party, all I can see in him is a reformed Black nationalist who despises White Nationalists.

I should like to dwell for a moment on the subject of reform, with all due respect for what the hon the Administrator had to say in this regard yesterday. Let it be known to all South Africans that while the LP of South Africa is very proud of the role it has played thus far in bringing about reform, it would be futile if reform was only confined to the walls of Parliament. To us reform is also a change of heart and a change of mind. It does not only mean the repeal of discriminatory laws.

I wish to make an appeal to White South Africans in particular to accept and appreciate the reforms that we are trying to bring about collectively. They must rest assured that it is not an act of vengeance but rather an act of love on our part. We want them to know that no matter how they desire to trample on us, we will still love them. No matter how they despise us for what we are, we will still love them. No matter how hard they may try to stay intransigent on reform, we will still love them because reform has already taken place in the hearts of Black South Africans.

And Whites.

Thank you. We on the other side of the colour line are especially appreciative of the fact that we cannot do without White technology and White skills at present. [Interjections.] Yesterday the hon member for Klipspruit West, whom I respect and whom I love, made a statement. I should like to place it on record that I completely dissociate myself from that racist remark …

What racist remark?

That the hon member despises Whites.

You are an idiot!

Mr Chairman, I should like to react to the speech of the hon the Administrator of yesterday, and …

Order! Did the hon member for Klipspruit West say the hon member for Alra Park was an idiot?

Yes, Sir.

The hon member must withdraw those words.

Mr Chairman, I withdraw them.

Mr Chairman, in reaction to the speech the hon the Administrator made yesterday I also want to refer to what the hon member for Houghton said with regard to squatting.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon member for Klipspruit West told me to shut my trap. Is that in order? [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I have very little time. [Interjections.]

The hon member must resume his seat. That is not a point of order. [Interjections.] I apologise, I did not understand the hon member. Did the hon member for Klipspruit West say that to the hon member for Matroosfontein? [Interjections.] It is unparliamentary and the hon member for Klipspruit West must withdraw it.

Mr Chairman, I withdraw it.

To return to the subject of squatting, I want to emphasise the following. Although I understand what the hon the Administrator said, approximately 1 000 people are living in “zolzo’s” and caravans in Eden Park. Eden Park is fourteen years old. We are not like our Black brothers and we will not build “pondokkies” on open pieces of land. Perhaps this is to a larger extent due to the fact that we are a very unassuming group of people who squat in our parents’ homes, to put it that way. I do not know if the Whites have experienced this. Our parents always feel sorry for their children and especially for newly-weds. It is not long before a room is prepared for them in the house or even in the garage. Newly-wed couples move in with their parents. We are, as I always say, “invisible squatters”.

However, the situation has deteriorated because of the bad economic conditions in other provinces and great numbers of people are coming to the Transvaal hoping to get employment here. These people are always welcome in the Transvaal, but unfortunately there is always a housing problem. As a result there is a new phenomenon in the Transvaal and that is that people move into the bush and live there in dreadful conditions.

Mr Chairman, I want to thank hon members who have since yesterday conveyed their good wishes to me and my administration, and assure them that I really appreciate it. It is a great pity that there is no time to reply in detail to all the remarks, statements and questions about the branches and divisions in which I am involved. I would like to convey my sincere thanks to the hon members who made speeches about nature conservation. Here I want to mention in particular the hon member for Meyerton as well as the hon member for Bryanston.

I also want to thank the hon members who referred to the regional services councils. It is true that I have a very soft spot for the regional services councils. To my mind this is a concept with enormous possibilities, one which has meant a great deal to South Africa and has made positive and constructive work possible.

†The hon member for Lenasia Central yesterday asked that the voting system within the councils be changed. As far as the voting system and procedure is concerned I think we have a system which works excellently. Although I will no longer be involved in the system I would certainly not be prepared to consider a change in the system at this stage. The fact of the matter is that these councils have been in operation for between twelve and eighteen months and so far we have not had a single appeal as far as the distribution of funds is concerned. I think we have an excellent system. People have learned to work together and I think if we should start changing the voting system we would create more problems that could be solved.

The hon member for Bryanston referred earlier today to the Roads Branch and requested that the matter of privatisation be expedited. Once again I wish to refer the hon member to the hon the Administrator’s speech, especially item 3.1. What he asked for, namely privatisation as well as a total evaluation of all the functions, not only in the Roads Branch but in the whole administration, is being done.

The hon member also made certain remarks regarding nature conservation. Unfortunately I do not have the time to reply in detail to them but we have taken due cognizance of what he said. Changes in the short term, as he requested, will not be possible but the whole issue of fines and penalties is being reviewed at the moment.

*The hon member for Soutpansberg today launched a fairly serious attack on me, the Administration, the Roads Branch and the NP Government as such. To my mind it was biased and the hon member did not reveal all the facts to the committee. [Interjections.] As regards the woman whose husband fell ill—he was involved in a motor accident, etc.—I am sorry that matters could not be expedited. The fact is that it is not all that easy to dismiss a person who becomes unfit for his work. This official received his salary until the end of January. After certain procedures have been finalised it is no longer the responsibility of the administration, but a matter dealt with by the pensions section of the Department of National Health. I was assured that the woman’s gratuity cheque was posted to Louis Trichardt on 31 March after all the calculations, debts, etc were done.

And it took 14 days to reach her?

Yes, unfortunately we are no longer responsible, but the cheque was posted.

All they need is another MP. All of 18 months have elapsed. [Interjections.]

No, it is not correct to say that it only happened after 18 months. That man could not be dismissed immediately and he received a salary until the end of March. I think the salary meant more to him than a pension.

The hon member also launched a serious attack because his questions were not answered. I want to draw the committee’s attention to the fact that the information the hon member furnished was not factually correct either. It was not a question put by a MP to the administration. They were questions falling within the ambit of the sitting of the joint committee. Although he was not a member of this committee, the Chairman allowed him to put questions. Those questions did not reach the Administration separately but were part of a packet of late questions which reached the Administration. According to procedure they were answered together with the other questions. These were questions put and replied to in the committee. If he did not receive the replies, it was not this Administration’s fault, but either a result of a lack of experience of the CP MPs in the joint committee or a result of incompetence. [Interjections.] However, I would like to help the hon member and I wonder if I may ask one of the messengers to give the hon member the replies now.

Why did you not give them to me yesterday? I have been asking for them since yesterday.

I was not aware of them yesterday. I only became aware of them now. [Interjections.] I think the hon member should speak to the hon members of his party who serve on the joint committee.

The hon member also made it clear that he took umbrage at a letter I wrote to him. He wrote me a letter about a certain problem. I replied to him in seven paragraphs. [Interjections.] I am not apologizing for that and I did not have the time to correspond with other MPs, and especially MPs in rural areas. However, I would like to tell him that this was well-intentioned advice. We know that it is good because it worked very well indeed in the days of the provincial councillors. What advice did I give him in reply to his questions? I wrote:

What happened? The hon the Administrator, the MEC or the Executive Director regularly receive enquiries about local problems. Then we have to take the trouble to find out from the regional engineer what the practical circumstances are. It is in the interests of the elected representatives to have a good relationship with the regional engineers in order to become conversant with the local circumstances and to acquire the information immediately instead of having to wait for weeks. If it is a problem of policy or some other major problem, hon members are welcome to contact the head office. [Interjections.]

What the hon member said about the general condition of roads in the Northern Transvaal is also true to a lesser or greater extent of other parts of the country. It is also true of the urban areas. The fact is that our minimum requirement for the Roads Branch during the coming financial year is R770 million. We received R547 million in the budget. It is impossible to meet the requirements of R770 million with R547 million. We are doing our best, however.

The hon member said that he was looking after the interests and welfare of the road-builders in that area. I want to demonstrate my goodwill by pointing out that the hon member promised some time ago that if road 854 running past his house from Alldays to Waterpoort was tarred he would invite the road-building team to a braai. This road was finished halfway through last year and the people are really looking forward to the braai. [Interjections.]

I have a lot more information to impart but unfortunately I do not have the time. Although the hon member Dr Geldenhuys has referred to this, I also want to say something about the criticism and the constant complaint that the Executive Committee was ostensibly not an elected body. I challenge anyone—and I say this as an outsider because essentially I have already taken my leave—to show me a group of executive members from any Government sector, be it central or local government, which does its work with more care, ability and dedication that this hon Administrator and his Executive Committee. [Interjections.]

It was said that they were not elected. That is a fallacious argument. No Minister is elected; they are appointed by the hon the State President. It was said that MECs do not have to report to voters, but neither does a Minister report to the voters; as an MP he reports to his constituency. [Interjections.] A Minister is appointed by the hon the State President and is dismissed by him and he is responsible to Parliament. Let me say this to the hon members: In terms of the Constitution which came into operation in 1983 the Executive Committee had to deliberate with a standing committee about the budget. This meeting with the members of Parliament for the Transvaal is the result of an urgent a request by this Executive Committee. [Interjections.] More than the other provinces we insisted on this from the beginning. There were people who thought that we were arrogant to insist on this right but we insisted on having a chance to report to the elected MPs of the Transvaal electorate. [Interjections.]

Finally I want to say that it is still uncertain whether the executive authority will not have to be appointed instead of being elected for many decades in future, even if there is future development and the constitutional set-up changes and I wish I had enough time to explain my views on provincial and regional government. This is a question that requires serious consideration. I am now retiring from public life. It was a very pleasant time. I started my public life in politics, after my career in the town council, as a member of the provincial council, as an MPC for the present MP for Waterkloof and the then MP for Soutpansberg. I took my first uncertain steps in politics with him—I can almost say under his direction. I want to thank him for what I learnt from him about politics. [Interjections.]

I am retiring without grievances or problems and it is my own decision. I want to express my gratitude for what public life offered and meant to me. I also want to express my gratitude for the privilege to retire from public life after this sitting this afternoon. I regard it as a special privilege to consult and debate as an MEC with hon members of Parliament. I will remember this for the rest of my life.

Allow me to conclude my speech and to express my gratitude to the hon the Chairman and all the other members of staff although I have done this before. Finally I should like to express my gratitude and appreciation to the hon the Administrator, my colleagues, the Director-General and all the officials—especially those with whom I worked closely and pleasantly—and wish all of them everything of the best for the future.

Mr Chairman, I cannot leave unanswered what the sole member of the United Democratic Party said about the LP, and in particular about the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing in the House of Representatives.

He called himself “’n vark in Palestina”. No man could have described himself more comprehensively. Let us take a look at the hon member’s political career. He belonged to and participated in that party in his short life. He belonged to the Federal Party, but when nothing came of that party he joined the Federal Independent Party. Later he was refused leadership of the Freedom Party and as an opportunist he was just in the ebb. For some time he was in the wilderness before joining the Independent Party. However, when nothing came of that party, he joined the LP. When his nomination was turned down for ministerial representative in the Transvaal, he became a member of the Independent Party and formed the United Democratic Party. Today he is the only member of that party because the other members have disbanded. [Interjections.] He has no caucus. To prove this, he yesterday brought four members from his constituency. Today, before lunchtime, 50% had already left. I can really say he can huff and puff, but he will bluff nobody and we will not accept him as a member of the LP.

The hon nominated member Dr Geldenhuys said the LP boycotts reform. That is a misleading statement. The LP has embarked upon negotiation. Issues that will not advance, promote and emancipate our people from the ideology of apartheid will not be accepted.

Allow me to refer to Vote No 4: General Affairs. I would like to refer to resorts in the Northern Transvaal in particular. I appreciate what the hon MEC in charge of resorts in the Northern Transvaal said, but I would like to add the following. I appreciate the resolution taken by the Executive Committee—resolution 2001—to develop resorts at Warmbaths to serve the Coloured and Indian communities. I also appreciate the investigation in prospecting for suitable mineral water resources. I appreciate efforts by Dr J F Enslin, who undertook geohydrological surveys in this connection. An analysis of samples of boreholes on both Mr Van Schalkwyk’s and Mr Matthews’ farms later proved that it was hydrochemically unsuitable for both bathing and drinking.

Let us examine the progress made in this regard for the last five years. After this analysis the MECs can decide whether the exercise should be continued or abandoned. On 28 February 1984, according to resolution 2001 of the Executive Committee, the ball was set into motion. Almost a year later, on 13 February 1985, Dr J F Enslin was appointed by the chief director to embark on this important job.

Again in March 1986 the CSIR made a proper analysis of both Mr Van Schalkwyk’s and Mr Matthews’ farms. Much later, in 1987, the samples from Mr Van Schalkwyk’s farm were found inadequate and unsuitable for both bathing and drinking. It is now three years since the project was embarked upon.

According to further reports on 5 February 1988 Dr Kent recommended that samples from Mr Matthew’s farm were hydrochemically suitable. Only five months later, however, on 8 August 1988, after further analysis Dr Kent withdrew his recommendation. In short, since the Executive Committee’s resolution in 1984 until now—that is almost four years—nothing positive has been reported.

How long will this situation go unchecked? There is only one answer to this frustrating question, and that is that it must be abandoned in its entirety. It has solved no problem, but has, on the contrary, increased mistrust concerning the efforts that have been made.

Overvaal has been developed extensively. It is my opinion that instead of duplicating these facilities, the existing ones should be made available to all. This will save the province money, something which it does not have enough of. I believe that the duplication of services is a waste of money. I think the climate in our political situation is right to face the future with courage.

Roodeplaat Dam Resort has been developed tremendously. The resort is conspicuous by its duplication. I would suggest that the hon MEC in charge of resorts consider the building of an enclosed heated swimming pool which may be used throughout the year. Sporting facilities, indoor games rooms, etc, may be included. I suggest, however, that the feasibility of building an enclosed swimming pool should be investigated.

Roodeplaat Dam Resort caters for people from all walks of life. What disturbs my peace is that day visitors bring dangerous weapons into this resort, something that has made this resort unpopular. My appeal is that extra security personnel should be made available to search vehicles as they enter this resort.

Mr Chairman, the residents of Westenburg, like all other people, need a resort with facilities. I feel that this community is deprived of that. A resort with facilities for children, as well as chalets, a caravan park, barbecue stalls, etc, will bring new life to this town.

I certainly welcome the news that the N1 road between Middelfontein and Pietersburg is going to be made a dual carriageway. I also welcome the news that the same is going to be done on the N1 road between Pietersburg and Louis Trichardt.

There is another road which I believe should also receive attention. I am referring to the road to Brits, and particularly the piece of road from Sandfontein to the intersection at Silkaatsnek needs attention. It is narrow and carries heavy traffic. The road is not straight and has many dangerous curves. I appeal to the administration that this road be attended to.

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to follow the hon member for the Northern Transvaal. He and I play cricket for the same team, and we have always shared the small joke that since we have had a Brown chairman for our cricket club and a tricameral parliamentary cricket side, with the hon members of the Houses of Representatives and Delegates playing with the Nationalists, we have never had an hon member of the PFP playing cricket with us again. [Interjections.]

That is not true.

It is true. I am the secretary of that club and I have often approached you, but for the past two years your people have refused to play for us. That is the truth.

That is not true.

I know the hon member for Carletonville should really have been speaking. I do not know whether it was because they thought he would be an embarrassment to his own party or what the reason for his withdrawal was, but I would have loved to discuss Carletonville here after he had spoken. [Interjections.]

†I should also like to say I feel like a cricket player who is playing on a bumping pitch in the blinding light as the last man in in the last minute of our debate. [Interjections.] It is actually my pleasure to say good-bye to the PFP in this provincial committee, because I hope most of the hon members realise we will never again have the opportunity to debate with the PFP as we did here until now. I always believe that a cynic is someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. I have always felt that the PFP know the value of everything but never found out the price of anything.

I wish them luck in their “Domocratic Party”. I, as a national in the “Nationalist Party”, wish the new “Domocratic Party” everything they deserve. [Interjections.]

*It has been a pleasure to work with our new hon Administrator this year. I thank him sincerely on behalf of Germiston for the meeting that he has already held there. We appreciate it.

We say goodbye to Mr Fanie Schoeman. We wish him luck. We know with how much dedication he worked for this province. He will know that he was one of the people who worked with a man from Germiston, Mr Willem Cruywagen, and we appreciate everything Mr Schoeman has done for us in the Transvaal, and we hope his future career will be very successful. I thank him sincerely.

We wish Mr Ferreira everything of the best in his new position. I am certain that he will follow in the large footsteps that are there for him to follow.

The hon MEC Mr Kirstein said that 70% of today’s speakers discussed hospital services. I shall make that 80%. I have a problem with Germiston. The Willem Cruywagen Hospital may have to close its out-patients department because there are not enough doctors to run it. We did some research to find out why we should have to stop this excellent service to the Germiston community. We have a problem. We cannot send people to East Rand. People will die before they get there. For the same reason we cannot send them to Johannesburg either.

†After completing our research, we came to one conclusion, albeit with difficulty, and that was that there should not be a shortage of doctors, because in the Transvaal we have about 500 graduate doctors per year. Nevertheless, we are still short of doctors.

We found out at the University of Pretoria that they produce about 200 doctors per year, and 90% of them work in this country. Even at Medunsa, where they produce fewer doctors, we found that 90% of their doctors stay in this country.

Then, however, we got to Wits. We read one of the most frightening things I have ever seen in a newspaper in my life. Prof John Gear, the head of the hospital board there, said that of the 220 Wits first year students in the medical school last year, 100 had already said that they were going to leave this country after graduating.

Then we looked a little bit further into what has happened at Wits over the last 20 years. By Prof John Gear’s own recognizances, 40% of the doctors produced at Wits over the last 20 years have left this country. That is a frightening number. It is 1 600 doctors that we paid for to study at Wits who have left this country over the last 20 years.

He said there were two main reasons for these doctors leaving the service of the Transvaal provincial hospitals and the service of this country. One was that they feared the political instability that was prevalent in this country. [Interjections.] Yes, the political instability was the one factor. The second thing he talked about was that they did not want to do their military service. These were the two great reasons that Wits gave for those students not doing their duty in this country.

Just think that 1 600 doctors have left us. My point of view is only this: If they left 20 years ago because of political instability in this country, and now, after those 20 years we are the most stable country in Africa and probably one of the most stable countries in the world, then either something is wrong with us, or there is a perception at Wits alone—the only university in this province where such a perception is prevalent—which says that we are unstable and they must leave. Then I ask myself whether they do not perhaps mean that they are against the NP.

Once more Prof John Gear has the following to say in the Tribune of 8 June 1988—one of my colleagues has the clipping in his hand because he wants to use it in his constituency—

Do we really have to believe that we are spending money on these students at Wits and that they are going to leave us because they do not agree with the NP. As the NP said right at the beginning I believe this tricameral system is the origin of what is going to be the solution for South Africa’s problems. Of course this is not the end product as we still have to deal with the Blacks. I believe in the right of our young people to be politically active. They should be free to say what they mean. I believe that they are right and that they should say so. I believe that they are noble and that they should say so. However, if their righteousness and nobility is at the expense of the sick, the maimed and the dying in the Transvaal, I am not in favour of those Wits students’ righteousness and nobility.

What does it cost a parent to send a child to university these days? A minimum amount of about R4 000 per year. At the end of seven years one would have spent R25 000 in fees and R35 000 on the support system for that child. He had been given a house and probably transport. The parent bought him books, the stuff he needed for the laboratories and clothes and they entertained him.

Then we go to the hon MEC Mr Kirstein’s department and ask for a further amount of R75 000 per pupil for buildings, laboratories, equipment they use, keeping the ground staff and the administration going. So already the … [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, these have been two long days but at the beginning of the hon the Administrator’s opening speech yesterday one sensed a positive and up-beat approach. One welcomes this, even though it may be only a case of words at this stage. However, like Mrs Thatcher, I believe that authorities must be encouraged to move away from the confrontational system presently obtaining in South Africa as soon as possible. I sense a new spirit in the approach of the hon the Administrator and certainly in the report of the hon MEC in charge of local government, Mr Van Zyl.

There are many details one will take issue with but the overall thrust is to be welcomed and one would not want to dampen the enthusiasm that exists in the reports, if indeed the enthusiasm is real. I want to refer to the question in regard to the provision of housing for Black people in particular. I note from the hon the Administrator’s speech, in the sections dealing with the development of Black communities and the economic basis of Black local authorities, that a conference was held in December 1988 in order to expedite the development of Black towns, and that those involved will report back by August 1989, when attention will be given to specific actions on which unanimity has been reached. It is a bit vague but it is a welcome step.

The hon the Administrator talks of introducing measures to reduce municipal expenditure and finding additional sources of revenue. In this respect he states that Black local authorities will be urged to increase their rentals and service fees and to recover rentals in arrears. My hon colleague from Houghton warned yesterday and today that this was dangerous in the current climate of high unemployment and political flux. This was an unfortunate remark on the part of the hon the Administrator and I want to say he could be called the Marie Antoinette of the 1990s.

Two centuries ago, when the queen of France was told that people had no bread, she said that they should eat cake. In South Africa where we have a great deal of unemployment, political instability, a policy of co-option and an appalling lack of housing, the Administrator says that rents should be increased. I believe this was an uncaring, unsympathetic comment worthy of Marie Antoinette. I am not suggesting that a person should not pay for services provided. It must, however, be appreciated that we are dealing with the poorest members of our community. They are the people who have lived deprived lives for decades and have been shunted out into the veld without adequate services. They have been deprived of decent and proper education and the opportunity to develop their talents and entrepreneurial skills.

I want to remind hon members that it was Dr Verwoerd who said it was not the aim of Bantu education to provide Black Englishmen but that they could fulfil their Biblical role of hewers of wood and drawers of water. The whole question of financing Black local authorities has to be re-examined. Black townships do not have the rating base the White townships have developed over many years. In this regard I am pleased that the hon the Administrator is investigating measures to reduce municipal expenditure.

When I was in business in the engineering sector in the late 1960s we were experiencing a dreadful economic downturn and there were only two ways in which we could survive. We had to reduce costs and increase production.

The Government in general has the reputation of being large and wasteful. In this evening’s Pretoria News there is a leading article which makes the point that—

I recommend that the hon the Administrator adopts the golden rule of reducing or controlling costs and increasing productivity. [Interjections.]

I now come back to the question of housing. The Urban Foundation has estimated that seven million Black South Africans live in what they term “informal settlements”. They live in backyard shacks, garages and lean-tos wherever they can find them. They live in the most dreadfully overcrowded conditions without adequate services and with little hope of any relief from their awful plight. I emphasise that Blacks, as Whites, have no shortage of adequate and, at times, lavish housing. It is unfortunate therefore that legislation in regard to squatting has been brought into being together with the Free Settlement Areas Act and the revised Slums Act for Whites only before adequate attention has been given to the provision of housing. I must express my deepest regret that no housing bill has been introduced in Parliament this year.

The hon the Administrator strikes a sympathetic note in his address when he refers to squatting. Unfortunately there is no suggestion of tackling the question in regard to the provision of housing for our people in any meaningful way. Many agencies—such as the Urban Foundation and the Black Sash—have enormous research facilities and experience in the field of housing and I want to suggest to the hon the Administrator that he invites these two organisations—and any others which may be able to be of assistance in solving these major problem—to assist him. He may not like some of the organisations, but I would like to remind him that Minister Barend du Plessis, when he was Minister of Education and Training, met Bishop Tutu when there was a school boycott in Atteridgeville, and they solved the problem.

In the same vein I believe the hon the Administrator should draw all the experts around him into the process and work together towards a solution for this problem. He must be aware of the enormous and valuable work that was done by the Urban Foundation in this field. I have no doubt they could play an important role in this connection.

In the same way the Black Sash played an important and valuable role in researching and highlighting problems in the housing field. Their latest publication is entitled Merely an A—Z guide to homelessness on the Witwatersrand. It is a penetrating analysis of the problem, particular in the PWV area. I want to recommend it to the hon the Administrator.

Houses are needed on a massive scale and the efforts of the Provincial Administration must be channeled into solving this problem together with the private sector and the agencies that are competent to deal with this matter. I look forward to a positive report in regard to the solution of the housing problem when we meet again next year.

Mr Chairman, at the outset I should like to take this opportunity to convey my sincere thanks to all the hon members who congratulated me for their kind words and good wishes, as well as their positive attitude. I greatly appreciate it. Like my hon colleague in the Executive Committee, Mr Schoeman, I too want to thank the hon member for Pietersburg for his friendly words. We worked together in a team for a long time for that wonderful part of our country.

Various hon members made positive references to my colleagues in the Executive Committee and to the Director-General and his colleagues. It is gratifying to know that there is, after all, understanding for the important, difficult and sensitive task resting on their shoulders. I can say this because I am still new there and am still entirely objective. One would have to go far in South Africa to find more enthusiastic and dedicated people than the members of this team. I am proud to be associated with them.

For us as the political functionaries of the province—but also, in my opinion, for the MPs—this occasion is one of considerable importance. It is the only occasion on which we as political functionaries of the province can give account, report, conduct discussions and also consider those matters which are entrusted to us and which affect every Transvaler. However, it is also the opportunity for hon members, as representatives of the people, to call us to account—which they have indeed done over the past few days—to hold discussions with us and to join issue with us in connection with the matters affecting their constituencies and the Transvaal as a whole.

Mr Olaus Van Zyl and I have already referred to the fact that at present our functions are development-oriented and are carried out within and in terms of macro-national policy. Therefore they affect all population groups and all people. Accordingly it was gratifying that so many hon members addressed the real problems of the Transvaal, of constituencies, of regions, of communities and of people. Hon members called the Executive Committee to account in regard to matters of significance, joined issue with us and came up with positive suggestions for improvements in respect of certain matters. That is as it should be.

Somewhere within the present constitutional set-up in South Africa, and in any possible future dispensation, there must be a place and a forum for the unbiased and frank discussion of the very functions we have been discussing over the past few days. There must be room for that. However it must be possible to reflect very sincerely, honestly, reasonably, maturely, soberly and responsibly. Only if we are able to satisfy those requirements will we be able to make meaningful use of such a forum. This Extended Committee creates such an opportunity at this stage, but we shall all have to cooperate to make it a truly meaningful occasion. If we do not approach it in the way I have spelled out—sincerely, honestly, reasonably, maturely, soberly and responsibly—then we may just as well forget about it. Then, however, we shall certainly be allowing an excellent opportunity to slip through our fingers. Unfortunately I shall have to refer very briefly to certain aspects touched on by hon members. One would have liked more time to go into many of these matters.

The hon member for Laudium and various other hon members expressed their concern about the fact that Overvaal resorts have now been handed over to White own affairs because this means that Coloureds, Indians and Blacks have and will obtain no access whatsoever to these resorts. They asked that it be borne in mind that the resorts were developed using provincial funds, and they asked that the province do something positive to make the resorts available to all races.

The fact is that the resorts were classified as White own affairs in terms of the Constitution and therefore they, together with their assets and liabilities, were handed over to the Administration: House of Assembly in terms of a Cabinet decision in that regard. Unfortunately the province has not been able to bring about any change in this situation.

Hon members also expressed their disappointment that mineral bath facilities were no longer available for Indians at Warmbaths and Badplaas, and requested that the existing facilities there be shared with Indians and Coloureds. The Overvaal resorts at Warmbaths and Badplaas are two of the resorts transferred to the Administration: House of Assembly and unfortunately the province no longer has any say in the matter of admission of the public to these resorts. I should like to point out that as stated in writing to the hon member, the province is using funds made available some time ago by the Central Government to prospect for additional mineral water in the region of Warmbaths, and should such a water source be found, funds are available in the budget of the province to construct facilities for Indians and Coloureds at such a site. An amount of R2 024 000 is available for this purpose. It is, of course, an open question whether these funds will be adequate, but one will have to re-evaluate the whole issue at that stage.

I am very grateful that the hon member for Nigel raised the whole issue of the radios here. This is a matter which, of course, intimately affects us as a province. I have made it my business, since it was brought to my attention for the first time about a week ago, to examine this very closely together with the Director-General. In his speech the hon member mentioned certain tenders for the supply and maintenance of radio equipment for the Component: Civil Protection of the administration, as well as a maintenance tender (1-33-87) and a maintenance contract (HW-1-34-87) for the Branch: Hospital Services of the Administration. Both of these matters have already been brought to the attention of the Advocate-General; in the case of the contract for the Component: Civil Protection some time ago and in the latter two cases it was established last night that the other two matters have now also been brought to the attention of the Advocate-General. Accordingly I should like to inform hon members about these two cases.

Let me begin by discussing the radios for civil protection. In this instance the hon member confused the maintenance and the supply of radios in his speech. In the course of his speech he referred to tenders for the supply of radios, but he went on to quote facts relating to the quotations for the maintenance of the radios. In this regard the Director-General, who is also the accounting officer, had already, independently of the Advocate-General’s investigation, called for a report on the factual course of events relating to the quotations and the awarding of tenders on 20 March 1989. On the basis of the information placed at his disposal by the relevant Component, and taking into account the investigation by the Advocate-General with whom he is co-operating closely, it was decided at that time to await the findings of the latter investigation, after which consideration would be given to taking further action.

However, further consultations with the Advocate-General took place last night and the Director-General decided to appoint a committee under the chairmanship of the chief director of the department in charge of works, Dr Piet Steyn, to investigate the tenders for the citizen band radios and report to him within 30 days. Dr Steyn will be assisted by the Director of Financial Administration and other experts from the business and public sectors. His report will also be made available to the Advocate-General.

After the hon member raised the issue of hospital services tenders in the course of his speech, the Director-General also called for written reports from the relevant branch. Unfortunately I do not have the time to deal with these reports, but I have before me the tender documents in respect of the radio maintenance tenders and the purchase contracts and I will gladly give them to the hon member. It will take some time to deal with the matter and accordingly I prefer to give these documents to the hon member to enable him to peruse them.

As already mentioned, it was established last night that these two matters were also brought to the attention of the Advocate-General. Despite the information submitted in writing to the Director-General, which on face value indicates that everything was dealt with properly and in accordance with the rules, it has now been decided to refer this matter, too, to the committee under the chairmanship of Dr Steyn. He must also submit a report within 30 days, and that report will also be made available to the Advocate-General.

†Mr Chairman, the hon member for Eersterus and a few other hon members referred to the whole question of Pact. They are concerned that Pact does not serve all the communities. It is a fact—we also answered the committee in writing about the matter—that Pact theatres are open to all population groups and that they also employ members of all the population groups. As all members of all population groups are not in a position to attend performances in Pact theatres, 172 performances were also offered at Black, Coloured and Indian schools during 1988. During the same period Pact undertook a further 56 tours to Black, Coloured and Indian residential areas to offer performances in those areas.

*I do not want to react to what the hon member for Klipspruit West had to say. I just want to single out one aspect which my colleague, Mr Arbee, did not mention. Mr Arbee explained the whole issue to hon members while the hon member was not present. He informed hon members as to when I had received the letters, when I had reacted to them, the steps I had taken and so on. I have copies of the correspondence before me. Mr Arbee did not refer to the fact that during the first half of December the hon member spoke on the telephone to a member of the administration in my office.

What is wrong with that?

The hon member said that he had telephoned and that there had been no reaction. I want to tell hon members why the hon member telephoned.

†Mr Reeves discussed problems he was experiencing in this regard with the deputy director. He mentioned that he was of the opinion that the registering authority of Westonaria was discriminating against the different race groups as he was personally experiencing problems with the cancellation of his vehicle.

So, what is wrong with it?

I am not going to try to enter into debate with the hon member. The point I want to make is that the hon member tried to create the impression that there was a general problem with the licensing authorities. However it was very clear from the telephone conversation that it had to do with a personal problem. The official in question immediately invited him to bring the facts to my attention. He did so a little later and I immediately reacted to that.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I gave the hon Administrator all the evidence and told him that the other evidence would follow …

Order! I am not going to permit the hon member to rise on a supposed point of order and then make a speech. He will not do that again while I am in the Chair. The hon the Administrator may proceed.

Mr Chairman, may I also refer very briefly to something which the hon member for Houghton mentioned. I am doing this with my tongue in my cheek. She is not here now but I want her to recognise the spirit in which I doing this when she reads Hansard. She pointedly … [Interjections.] … and correctly referred to the contradiction of the expression “luxury of essential services”.

Order! If the hon member for Klipspruit West makes another interjection he will be asked to withdraw from the Committee.

The choice of words was quite deliberate. It was deliberate. I believe the technical term for this kind of expression is an oxymoron. An oxymoron contains an irony and a paradox simultaneously, which was exactly the effect I had in mind. Being a contradiction in terms, an oxymoron catches the attention. This is what happened to the hon member. However, an oxymoron has the added effect of startling the reader into a sudden realisation of the paradox. Unfortunately the hon member failed to realise the paradox implicit in the situation. Services may become so expensive that they will be a luxury taxpayers cannot afford even though they are essential services. That is what I tried to say in my speech.

Mr Chairman, may I finally thank you for your and your staffs contribution, assistance and co-operation.

*I mentioned a moment ago that for us as members of the Executive Committee and as officials, this was an occasion which we were glad to utilise for the purpose of discussions with hon members. We look forward to similar occasions in the future.

Debate concluded.

The Committee rose at 16h11.