brought up the First Report of the Select Committee on Native Affairs, reporting the Orange, Free State Native (Barolong) Land Relief Bill with amendments.

House to go into Committee on the Bill on 7th April.

brought up the Second Report of the Select Committee on Native Affairs.

Report and evidence to be printed; report to be considered on 7th April.

The hon. the Minister of the Interior has had to admit, and, to his credit be it said, he did so quite frankly, that this Bill was intended to give a measure of protection to one class of Europeans against the unfair competition of a similar class of Indian. Where I find exceptional fault with the measure is that there is no protection whatsoever for those who have only their labour to sell. The worker and the producer are not protected under this bill at all. In the Asiatic Commission’s report presented to this House in 1921 there is a very pregnant sentence which reads—

So long as the Indian remained a labourer and did not enter into competition with the commercial people, they had no objection to the presence of the Indian here. That brings to mind a congress I once attended in Natal. Many hon. members on the other side of the House will also remember that particular gathering: I can see quite a number of them here. It was held by what was called the South Africa league. The object of this conference was to see what could be done, not to segregate, but to rid the province entirely of Asiatic, competition. Those present were unanimous regarding the various motions framed and passed, (when, towards the end of the congress, one of the few remaining artisans now left in the furniture making industry of Durban proposed that the provisions embodied in the resolutions should be extended to include those in competition with the semiskilled and skilled artisans, the whole atmosphere of the congress changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and the sole desire on the part of the great majority of those who attended that congress was at once apparent. The same people, I take it, have been responsible for bringing pressure to bear on the Government to bring in, a measure, such as we have before us. Last night I endeavoured to give the House some idea as to the inroads the Indians are making in the ordinary occupations in Natal. When the hon. the Minister says they are largely confined to hawkers, he seems to have anything but a real grasp of the position.

I did not say anything of the kind.

The hawkers do not come into competition with the white men?

I was explaining why the hawker was allowed a special form of exemption.

They have certainly reserved that particular business to themselves. It is very difficult for any white man to enter into competition with an Indian so far as the hawking trade is concerned. In several departments of the Durban municipality they provide a livelihood for no fewer than 1,461 persons described as Indian employees, and the great majority are employed at a trifling wage. Only 23 are in receipt of pay of £5 per month or over. That is exactly why they are employed; and that is the reason why the Indian competitor will beat the white man every time. A great number of the Indians employed by the Durban municipality are earning from 38s. to 41s. 6d. a month, the lowest wage of all being 5s. a month. We find that the Union Railway Administration employs 2,135 Indians. In the Cape 31; in Natal 2,104. In the Free State and the Transvaal they have no Indians on the railway. The Indians on the railways perform labouring work for which the rates of pay in the Cape are 2s. 6d. to 4s. 10d. a day, and in Natal 1s. 4d. to 2s. 10d. a day with free food and quarters. A few of the Indians are engaged on more important duties, and receive pay from 6s. 8d. to 8s. 2d. a day, and I submit to the House that many Europeans in Natal at the present time would be only too glad to get work at the same remuneration. I question if they would be of the same servile type of labour as the Indians, but at all events it would help to maintain the white race in Natal. The opinions of the hon. the Minister of the Interior seem to have changed since 1922; he took strong exception then to those who advocated drastic measures for dealing with the trading Indian, and at the same time insisted that the labourer should not be interfered with. He also said that in dealing with this problem you must deal with the Asiatic population as a whole, and that is one of the reasons why we desire this measure sent to a Select Committee. This Bill is class legislation to the extreme. I want to say that there are many parents bringing up children in Natal whose outlook is very black indeed, and if it is the intention of the Government in this measure to protect the trading community, something should be done also to prevent unfair competition generally. Many things have been said by a female agitator who recently came to this country. In Natal she stated that if the Government insist upon South Africa being a white country, the Government of India will insist upon India being a brown country. Well, I think if an exchange of the particular peoples concerned were possible, it would be to the advantage of both countries. A politician, it is said, only thinks of the next general election, but a statesman is credited with thinking of the next generation, and it is not only the next generation we have to consider when dealing with the Asiatics, but also the present generation. I support the principle of the measure, but I hope the hon. the Minister will agree to a Select Committee, so that a more reasonable Bill covering the whole question may be brought before the House.

I should like to join in an appeal to hon. members as was done last night by the hon. member for Stamford Hill (Mr. Creswell), in the hope that hon. members will deal with this extremely difficult and important question not on party lines, and that each member of the House will do what it has always been the custom in this Assembly to do in dealing with question of colour, to deal with it apart from party considerations, and for each individual to express freely what he feels to be the position, and to do his little bit to try and solve this very, very difficult problem. And equally do I agree with the hon. the Minister, who in his very eloquent and lucid speech last night, said that we were to consider this measure without regard for threats outside South Africa or within. And I shall endeavour to follow both those rules in the few remarks I venture to submit to the House, and also I shall endeavour particularly to give credence in what I may have to say, and which I feel is the honest and legitimate conviction of the hon. the Minister that the measure he is bringing in is one of utility, and will alleviate a great evil as it appears to me in the Transvaal. and Natal. I should like to correct a statement made by the hon. member for Stamford Hill (Mr. Creswell) who, if he will allow me, in a somewhat involved speech of last night seemed to suggest that the party of which I happen to be a humble member, were responsible for having done nothing to alleviate or stop Indian immigration. I was not a member of the South African Party in the early days of 1910, but it was not a fact that it was the Indian Government who put an end to this importation from oversea. What really happened in Natal was that the people of Natal were not anxious to continue this importation, they did not want the Indians to stop in South Africa, they wanted the Indians to finish their indentures in India, but the Indian Government did not agree, and it was General Botha, and the Party of which he was the leader, who put an end to the importation of Indians into South Africa, for which many of us fought futilely for many years before we came into Union. The hon. member is wrong when he says that the credit of stopping this importation is due to the Indian Government, it was due entirely to the far seeing and statesmanlike policy of General Botha, who put an end to this traffic. I, for one cannot agree to the proposal of the hon. gentleman for the appointment of a Select Committee. I cannot quite follow what he wants that Select Committee for. The amendment is again very involved and, at any rate, we have had commissions on this subject, and the salient facts connected with this question are available for anyone who may take the pains to ascertain them. I think that we should give consideration to this measure on the floor of the House, where each one can offer what he thinks are solutions to these difficulties. I have been at some pains, because I think it is very desirable we should get a proper view of the position in South Africa, or in the part of the world I come from, to ascertain what is the nature and extent of what is known as the Indian menace, and if the House will bear with me, I will cite a few salient figures which are very illuminating, in considering the question before us. The population of Natal has already been referred to, but the actual figures are that in 1911 the population was 133,420, and in 1921 it had risen to 141,649. That is the Indian population. That is an increase of 6 per cent. Of that population about half were born in South Africa. Then with regard to the trading licences, I would draw hon. members attention to the fact that in 1909 the trading licences in Durban were 628, and1923 they had only increased to 629, or one more during the fourteen years. Then with regard to the value of property in Durban owned by the white population and the Asiatic. In 1919-’ 20 the total value of property in Durban was £13 546,000, and of that amount at that time the Indians owned £856,000. At the present time the value of property in Durban has risen from £13,000,000 odd to £17,409,000 of which the Asiatics own £1,098,000. The total value of land has risen by £3,863,000 and the Asiatics hold £242,000 worth. The next point I would like to draw the attention of hon. members to is what is known as the infiltration of the Asiatics to those areas where the Europeans usually reside. I, notice in the report of the Langerman Commission of 1921 there were only 63 Asiatics residing in commonly known European areas, but at the present time in Durban this 63 has risen to about 400. The average nominal weekly wage paid to a European adult worker has risen from 1895 to 1921 as follows: In the Cape it rose from 64s. to 131s.; Bloemfontein from 18s. to 140s.; Port Elizabeth from 61s. to 126s.; the Witwatersrand from 107s. to 172s.; and Durban from 74s. to 142s The average increase has been well maintained in Durban, and, in fact, it comes second in the list of average increases of wages next to the Witwatersrand. Then I have taken out the average increase in European weekly wages from 1910 to 1920-’21. This is the average increase in European wages: The Witwatersrand rose 57 per cent. in 1920 and 54 per cent. in 1921; the Cape Peninsula rose from 94 per cent. in 1920 and was 75 per cent. in 1921; Durban rose in 1920, 98 per cent., and 59 per cent. in 1921. The standard of daily wages paid to Europeans in the following arean are of interest: Blacksmiths in December, 1921, at the Cape were getting 25s.; Bloemfontein 28s.; Port Elizabeth 25s. and Durban 30s. per day.

And Johannesburg?

I have not got the figures, but of course they are higher there. For boilermakers and fitters the rates of pay in Durban were higher than in the Cape, Bloemfontein or Port Elizabeth. I will now give the proportion of white and coloured persons in the various provinces. In 1921 in the Orange Free State there were 58 per cent. coloured persons, that is the lowest proportion in any province of the Union. In the Transvaal there were 62 per cent., and in the Cape 62 per cent., while in Natal there is the very alarming figure of 76 per cent. of coloured persons who are employed in the interests of the country. That is the proportion of coloured employees to whites in the Union. There are only 24 per cent. of the employees in Natal who are classed as Europeans. I hope that I have not worried the House in citing these figures, but the point which seems to me to emerge from these figures is apparent: there has not been an alarming, or anything like a considerable increase in the number of licences. In Durban there is only one, but there has been a very great increase in the number of white people employed in Natal. Again there is a very manifest indication that the Asiatics themselves are deliberately choosing to come out of those areas in which they formerly resided, and to come and reside in those areas which, up to the present, have been set aside and occupied by white persons. In view of these things and that I have given the matter my most anxious thought, and having given the Government and the hon. the Minister who has introduced this measure the fullest credit for endeavouring to solve one aspect of the problem, I have to ask myself, how is this particular measure going to affect it—it does not touch the fringe of the bigger problem, that is the question of general employment, how is this measure going to affect the white people in the Transvaal and Natal? The hon. the Minister was careful to say, and I give him full credit for his intentions, that the intention, when he introduced the measure, was to protect and preserve the right of every trader in Natal and the Transvaal, but can we disregard the alarm of every Indian in this country, and on the other hand can we disregard the circumstances which the hon. the Minister referred to, that those persons who asked for the measure are dissatisfied with it. While, it is true, the administration is in the hands of the hon. the Minister, it is in good hands, and if humanly possible these people would be protected and given proper areas to live in salubrious conditions, but I am equally confident that in other hands its operations might not be so favourable, and the conditions under which they live might resolve themselves into living in a ghetto. It is physically impossible to constitute areas in any principal town in Natal where these people can be conscientiously said to be placed in the same reasonable and fair conditions as allocated to the whites. Take the town of Durban. It has for a long time been divided into two parts, one being an Indian township. The condition to-day is that that area is overcrowded. This Bill was recently reported and interpreted by the Durban Town Council, and they said that in their opinion there was no area in Durban suitable for an allocation of the kind suggested. What is to be done? If it is suggested to buy land outside the borough there is an outcry at once. Only recently, at one of the Provincial Council elections, one of the candidates who had suggested the obtaining of an area in one of the suburbs adjoining Durban for an Indian location, practically lost the election because he so advocated. I am convinced it is not practically possible to get for those people a suitable area, such as the hon. the Minister conscientiously intended and desired should be got. So far as other towns are concerned where the Indians have practically taken possession, take Ladysmith and other such towns, if you put this measure into operation, I think the effect would be better if we took away the whites themselves. The Indians have already taken possession, and I ask the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (North) (Mr. Strachan), who has been so prominent in the agitation, where is he going to put these people? Does he think he would find a place near the salubrious neighbourhood in which he lives? If we bring this measure into operation, we are not going to put those Indians into a place to live in which they would find no degradation or injustice. I agree with the hon. the Minister that if you put these people into a location under proper conditions of life, you are only doing them a justice; otherwise you will be doing an injustice. If both classes are separated it would be best for each of them. But I do not think that this measure will effect this. The Bill, I honestly believe, has been presented with the idea, of humanly possible, of safeguarding the interests of all parties concerned. Another thing which I would appeal to the hon. the Minister to bear in mind is this. We have passed for Natal quite recently two provincial Acts of Parliament. One to enable the municipality to allocate land for the occupation of whites and coloured in different areas. It is only quite recently that the municipalities have obtained this power, and if anything can actually be done as regards Indians, I think it can be done under municipal legislation. If anything can be done, it can be done in that way, and if the municipalities cannot do it, the Government, I am perfectly certain, cannot do it. Under this measure the licensing laws have been tightened up, and it is now most improbable that the number existing at present will be increased, and in this way I think it is possible we can deal in Natal with the problem in a way it cannot be dealt with in this Bill. I was very much impressed the other day with a report of an interview between the hon. the Minister, and different representatives of the Indian community. I think if we were to adopt some of the suggestions put forward, it would rather be possible to bring both bodies together with the object we have in view. Everybody must realize we cannot go on granting licences. The Indians cannot go on increasing their licences, and taking away from the European everything. Some arrangement might be come to on the lines indicated in the report of the Langer man Commission, to bring about voluntary separation. Again something might be done on the lines suggested by the hon. member for Stamford Hill (Mr. Creswell) two years ago— voluntary expropriation. We have £25,000 put on the estimates every year, for the purpose of expropriating these people. That is a fleabite compared with the problem we are up against here. It would be cheap if that amount was raised to £250,000 to get those people away. Then again something might be done with the Indian Government. I would suggest that when those people who are going away reach India, arrangements might be made by which these people could be properly received and looked after, and greater inducements offered to them on this side to leave the country, and take up their residence there. I heartily agree with the hon. the Minister when he says that one great solution of this problem, if it is capable of solution, is a large increase in the white population of this country. That is not only a solution of the Indian question, but a partial solution of many of the difficulties in connection with the native population. I was only reading recently an article on this question by an eminent writer, and he lays it down as his firm conviction that the only solution is a large white population. But to come back to this measure. I cannot vote for it, because I do not believe it has been introduced in compliance with the earnest demand which those who come from Natal consistently advocate, that the greatest possible care should be taken that no injustice should be done to the people who are so deeply interested. And I am equally convinced in my own mind, and that is why I cannot vote for it, that in its effect it is going to put these people into locations, and that all the evils and all the misery will follow it, which history has shown, follow under these conditions. There is only one matter which I want to refer to before I sit down. In Natal, in Durban, there are certain classes of coloured people, who are known as Mauritians, as St. Helenans-; they are not very numerous, but they are coloured men who have lived in Durban and Natal now for very many years, and they are apprehensive that they may be brought under the operation of this Bill. Some of these people, of these men, occupy the very highest positions in Natal. They are hard-working and highly respectable people and no prejudice, as far as I know, no outcry has been made against their competition, and I therefore want to ask the hon. the Minister if it is possible to exclude these men from the operation of this Bill, they are coloquially called Mauritians and St. Helenans, but they cover a large section of the coloured peoples there.

As daar ooit ’n Wet in die Huis ingedien is, wat onnodige agitasie verwek het, dan is dit hierdie Wet. As ons die bepalinge daarvan nagaan, dan sal ons sien dat wat die praktiese effek daarvan betref, is die van so min betekenis dat ons ons afvra, wat die eintlike aanleiding is dat die Goewerment die Wet ingedien het en wat nog vreemder is, is dat so’n verskrikkelike agitasie oor die Wet hier in die land aan die gang gesit is, ’n agitasie wat ons altemit in die toekoms moeilikhede sal veroorsaak. Daarom, as ons bedink dat die Wet ons nog een van die dae baie moeilikhede kan oplewer, vra ons ons af, as ons sien hoe min praktiese waarde die Wet het, of dit werklik die moeite word is om die in die lewe te roep. Voor ek aan die Wet kom. wil ek graag ’n korte oorsig gee van die algemene toestand, soos die was en wys op ’n paar feite, wat baie edele lede in die Huis miskien nie weet nie en miskien vir edele lede aangenaam sal wees cm mee op die hoogte te kom. Ons in die Transvaal, vóór die Engelse oorlog, het al probeer ons bes te doen die vraagstuk op te los, om immigrasie van Indiërs teen te gaan soveel as moontlik. Ons het daar nie in geslaag nie deur die voortdurende teenwerking wat ons ondervind het van die Britse Goewerment. Reeds in 1899 het President Kruger ’n proklamasie uitgevaardig, waarby vir die Indiërs sekere wyke, strate en lokasies tersyde gesit sou word, om te woon en vir besigheidsdoeleindes. Die destydse Staatsprokureur, nou onse Eerste Minister, het natuurlik sy meewerking daaraan verleen en is op die hoogte van die proklamasie van President Kruger van die 25ste April 1899, waarin bepaald word, dat die Indiërs binne ’n sekere tyd in die aangewese wyke hulle besigheid moes hê en moes woon, maar die poginge is verhinder deur die verderflike Milner-Chamberlain politiek, die toe daar aan die gang was en elke moontlike ding, of dit goed of sleg was, aangegryp het om Transvaal in die nou te bring, en om oorlog met Transvaal te kry.

Die “Empire.”

Ja, dis heeltemal reg, dis die “Empire.” En wat die ergste is, is dat baie van die edele lede wat nou vir die indien van die Wetsontwerp is, het die verderflike politiek ondersteun. Hulle, wat nou die hardste skreeu was ondersteuners van die politiek, nie omdat hulle jammer was vir die Indiërs nie, maar om ’n wapen te hê teen die Transvaal. “The chicken has come to roost.” Hulle vind nou dat die politiek naderhand op hulle terug kom. Nou kom dieselfde mense en die edelagbare die Minister, wat die Wet ingedien het, met dieselfde maatreëls, terwyl die toestand baie moeihker is as die in 1899 was. Daar is meer Indiërs en die toestand is meer gekomplikeer as in die dae. Ek haal net die oorsake aan, omdat dikwels teen die Transvaal die verwyt gemaak word, dat ons die Indiërs toegelaat het en nie gedoen het soos die Vrystaat, wat vandag vry is van die moeilikhede. Dis nie onse skuld nie, nie die Boere Regering se skuld nie, dat die posiesie so is nie, maar dis die skuld van die Imperiale Regering en niemand anders nie. Om tot die Wet self te kom. Ek het gesê, dat dit vir my lyk, dat die kool die sous nie word is nie. Een ding waarom die Wet vir my min of meer aanneemlik is en waarom ek vir die twede lesing sal stem, is dat die beginsel van segregasie wat ons voorstaan, in die Wet opgeneem is, maar verder sien ek nie die minste praktiese nut in die ding nie. Laat ons die Wet nagaan, dan sal ons sien in die eerste plek, dat die verantwoordelikheid hier gegooi word, nie soos die voorstel in 1899 was op die Regering self, maar op die munisipaliteit. Nie die Regering set sekere plekke opsy nie, maar dit word gegooi op die munisipaliteite om vir die mense aan te wys lokasies, of sekere strate, om in te woon of hulle besigheid te dryf. Maar indien die munisipaliteite dit doen, dan is daar nog die bepaling dat as die munisipaliteite die versoek doen, dan is die edelagbare die Minister nie verplig om daaraan gehoor te gee nie. As hy dink, dat dit nie nodig is nie, of dat dit om die een of andere rede hom kwaad sal doen, dan mag hy weier. Maar selfs as hy toestaan dan nog kan na die kommissie aangestel is, die Goewerneur-Generaal die proklamasie uitvaardig of dit nie doen nie. Die twee uitvlugte het die edelagbare die Minister. In die eerste plaas kan hy die versoek van die munisipaliteite weier en in die twede plaas kan die Goewerneur-Generaal weier om dit toe te staan. Dit laat my dink aan die voël, wat ons in die Transvaal het, wat ’n nes bou met twee bekke. As daar gevaar kom van die ene kant, dan spring hy aan die ander kant uit. Soos dit met die Wet ook. Die Wet, soos die hier staan, hoef vir die Indiërs of vir iemand anders nie die minste moeite te veroorsaak nie. Die munisipaliteite kan ’n versoek indien en as die edelagbare die Minister dink dat dit toegestaan moet word, dan selfs kan die Goewerneur-Generaal nog weier om dit te doen. Daarom kan ek ook nie die verskriklike agitasie verstaan nie oor ’n Wet, wat nie die minste moeilikhede hoef te veroorsaak nie. Dan bepaal die Wet ook nog, dat sekere wyke sal aangewys word, waar die Indiërs nou woon, die wyke sal tersyde gesit word. Daar word bepaal, dat nie elke plek opsy gesit sal kan word nie. Dit sou ook onregverdig wees om dit te doen. Nou, as dit alles gedoen is, as die kommissie aangestel is, as die kommissie ’n plek bepaal het en as die Goewerneur-Generaal die kommissie se rapport goedgekeur het, wat gebeur dan? Laat my dit sê, dat uit die aard van die saak die Wet alleen van toepassing is op groot stede, soos net Johannesburg, Durban, Pretoria en enkele andere groot stede. Dis net in die groot stede, waar die bepalinge van enig werklike effek sal wees. Hierdie Wetsontwerp beteken niks vir die klein dorpies nie, maar is net vir die groot plekke, waar die Wet enige effek sal hê. Maar as die edelagbare die Minister nou so’n versoek goedgekeur het en so’n kommissie in Durban, Pretoria of Johannesburg wyke, lokasies of sekere plekke aangewys het, dan word tog die eiendom en bestaande regte van die Asiaat nie in die minste deur die Wet getref nie. Dis alleen van toepassing as daar nuwe Asiate inkom, wat besigheid wil dryf of in die stede wil kom woon, m.a.w., die eienaars van bestaande besighede of die Indiërs, wat noual in sekere plekke woon, die kry feitlik van die munisipaliteite ’n monopolie. Daar mag nie ’n andere Indiër kom woon nie. Hulle word beskerm, daar kan geen andere indiese besigheid kom nie. Dus is die Wet alleen van toepassing op nuwelinge wat inkom en die word verhinder om met die mense, wat daar al is, te kompeteer. Dan nog dit, dat enige Indiër vóór die datum van die proklamasie hom kan verseker. Hy kan homself verseker teen verlies van die huurkontrak van enige eiendom, as hy maar net ’n huurkontrak sluit vir nege jaar vir ’n huis, dan kan dit van tyd tot tyd vernuut word en hy is verseker, dat aan die bestaande toestand niks verander kan word nie. Dis net alleen die nuwe Indiërs wat onder die Wet sal val. Ek het al gesê, dat die Wet alleen van toepassing is vir die groot plekke en nie vir die klein dorpe nie, want het ons onder hierdie bepalinge, wat neerlê dat eie bestaande regte op geen manier aangetas sou word, daar kry ons nou Asiate op enige klein dorpie in die hoofstraat—ek vat maar net my eie dorpie—dat daar drie or vier indiese besighede is tussen die besighede van die blanke. Dus bly die toestand soos dit nou is. Daar word niks aan gedoen nie. Maar veronderstel nou, dat die munisipaliteite sover gaan om sekere dele opsy te sit. Wat gebeur in die klein dorpies, neem ’n dorpie van ’n uitgestrektheid van een myl of ’n halwe myl. Die Indiërs sal net aan die kant van die dorpie besigheid kan dryf en dus gaan die effek gladniks wees nie by die klein plekke. Dit maak geen verandering of die Indiërs binne in die dorpe is of aan die kant van die dorpe nie. Dus sal die Wet nie die minste effek daar het nie. Nou is daar die kwessie van die platteland, van die buite distrikte. Die word in die Wet nie met een enkel word van gerep nie. Enige Indiër en ek wil besonder daarop wys,. enige Indiër, wat miskien moeilikhede kry in die dorp, gaan na die buitedistrikte, huur ’n stuk grond en sit daar ’n winkel op. En dan wat die besigheid betref, kan die Wet—ek wil nie sê dat hy dit sal hê nie—maar kan die Wet die effek hê, dat Indiërs van stede soos Pretoria en Johannesburg na die platteland sal gaan om daar handel te drywe. Dan sal hulle daar ook kompeteer met die stede, want dieselfde klandiesie wat anders na die stad gaan, sal hy nou daar hê. Ek kán werklik nie sien die goeigheid of laat ek sê die praktiese effek van die Wet nie. Van watter praktiese nut gaan die Wet wees? Ek kan dit nie sien nie en daarom herhaal ek wat ek al in die begin gesê het, dat al die agitasie wat veroorsaak is deur die indiening van die Wet, veel erger is as die Wet word is. As daar nou werklik ’n Wet ingebring was, wat op gesonde voet geplaas was, en wat werklik die kwessie aanpak en so’n Wet sou agitasie veroorsaak het, dan sou jy sê, die Wet is die moeite word, dat ons iets doen vir die beskerming van die witman en dat ons daarom die agitasie moet staan, maar nou het ons iets wat somin praktiese effek het, ’n Wet wat so maklik ontduik kan word, dat die eintlik meer kwaad doen as wat dit goed sal doen vir ons. Die enige rede—ek het dit al gesê—waarom ek vir die twede lesing sal stem, is dat die beginsel van segregasie in die Wet opgeslote lê, dat daar sekere dele opsy gesit moet word. Dan is daar ’n andere punt. Ek glo, dat hier niemand in die Huis is wat, soos dit deur sommige elemente in die land gedoen word, die edelagbare die Minister die Regering wil beskuldig, dat hulle die Indiërs wil onderdruk. Ek glo nie, dat daar een edele lid hier in die Huis is, wat die inbors het, wat iets onregverdigs teënoor die Indiër wil doen nie. Ek ken niemand wat so’n gevoele het nie. Dis nie ’n kwessie van beskawing nie. Ek erken, dat die Indiërs beskaaf was, voordat ons beskaaf word, toe ons nog wild was. Die Indiërs is ’n beskaafde nasie, maar dis heeltemaal ’n andere beskawing as ons het, die beskawing is op ’n heel ander standaard en waar hulle standaard van die aard is, dat hulle kan lewe en ’n bestaan maak op ekonomies gebied, waar ons moet ondergaan, daar is dit vir my ’n kwessie van selfbehoud vir die witman hier. Ek beskou, dat ons hier in die land die beskawing gebring het, die westelike beskawing en dit sou onverantwoordelik vir ons wees, as ons nie ons bes doen om die ondergang van ons beskawing te verhinder en as ons sou sê: “Laat ons maar ondergaan”; dan sê ek, sou dit nog ’n ongeoorloofde stelling wees teenoor die mense wat die beskawing, die westelike beskawing, hier gebring het, om nie maatreëls te neem van selfbehoud. Dit is ’n kwessie van selfbehoud. Ek beskou die Indiers as beskaafd, maar ek sê, dis ’n andere beskawing. Hy kan met minder klaar kom en kan ’n kompetiesie voer op ekonomies gebied, wat dodend is vir die blanke beskawing en vir die blanke man en daarom as ek sê, dat maatreëls geneem moet word, nie sulke niks betekende maatreëls as in hierdie Wet geneem word nie, maar werklike maatreëls om die vraagstuk op te los, dan sê ek dit nie om die Indiër kwaad te doen nie. Dit het niks met beskawing te doen nie, maar die witman moet agter homself kyk, as hy aan die toekoms dink. Ek het al gesê, dat ek nie dink dat daar iemand hier in die Huis is wat ’n onreg wil pleeg nie. Daarom dink ek is dit reg om te doen, wat die Johannesburgse munisipaliteit gedoen het of die kamer van koophandel, ek weet nie presies maar dit was een van die twee liggame. Hulle het aan die edelagbare die Minister gesê, dat hulle ten gunste van die Wet is, maar hulle wil graag dat die edelagbare die Minister daarvoor moet sorg, dat as die kommissie aangestel word, dat dit dan ’n regverdig kommissie sal wees, dat nie Indiërs gesit sal word op ’n plek waar hulle nie kan bestaan nie, wat onmoontlik vir besigheid is. Een van die twee liggame het dit gesê, die edelagbare die Minister weet wel welke van die twee liggame dit is.

Dis die kamer van koophandel.

Ek dink iedereen in die Huis is daarvan oortuig, dat die Regering regverdig wil wees teenoor die Indiërs en hulle nie wil tref deur hulle op plekke te sit waar hulle tog nie kan bestaan nie. Die kommissie sal vanself plekke aanwys waar hulle behoorlik kan bestaan en handeldryf. Ons kan nie anders doen nie. Dis nie hulle skuld dat hulle hiernatoe gekom het nie, maar dis die skuld van ons, van die Regering. Die mense het hier gekom deur die verderflike imperiale politiek, om ons in Transvaal by die nek te kan vat. Ons is die oorsaak en gevolglik moet ons hulle, wat hier wil bly, ook regverdig behandel en geskikte plekke gee. Verder stem ek ooreen met wat andere lede gesê het en veral met wat die laaste spreker gesê het, dat die beste oplossing sou wees as ons deur oorleg, deur ’n vriendskaplike ooreenkoms die Indiërs kon uitkoop en repatrieer, maar dit moet gaan met hulle toestemming. Hulle moet self daarin toestem en dat sou die beste oplossing wees. Al sou dit ook miljoene ponde kos, so is dit vir die toekoms van Suid-Afrika tog die beste oplossing. Maar ons kan nie die mense forseer nie en hulle maar net op ’n skip sit en repatrieer nie. Dit kan ons nie doen nie. Daarom dink ek, dat die mees praktiese politiek van die Regering sou wees om met die mense te onderhandel en so moontlik ’n ooreenkoms te tref om hulle uit te koop en terug te stuur na Indië. Maar laat ons nie onse oë sluit vir die feit, dat hulle vir die toekoms ’n groot faktor sal wees, dat wat ons ook doen, hulle ’n deel van die bevolking bly. Hulle is ’n deel van die bevolking en gaan ongetwyfeld van invloed wees in die toekoms op die politiek van Suid-Afrika. Afgesien van die feit, dat hulle ’n land met 350,000,000 Indiërs agter hulle het, afgesien daarvan sal hulle hul invloed uitoefen op die politiek van Suid-Afrika. As ons so ver kan kom, met hulle toestemming, deur arbitrasie of wat ook hulle uit te koop en terug te bring na hulle land, dan sou dit die beste oplossing wees. Maar wat ons ook al doen, dit moet wees met hulle toestemming. Daar bestaan ’n baie groot gevaar, vandag bestaan dit al, dat hulle ’n ekonomiese gevaar is, maar die tyd kan kom, dit mag nog jare duur, dat hulle nie alleen ’n ekonomiese gevaar maar in andere opsigte ook ’n gevaar word. Daarom moet die politiek wees reguit en eerlik, met die doel die beskawing, die westelike beskawing te behou, en eerlik te handel, net soos ons teenoor die naturelle eerlik wil handel. Soos ek al gesê het, sal ek vir die twede lesing stem, nie om die verdienste van die Wet nie, maar omdat die beginsel neergelê word van segregasie, wat een van die hoofpunte is van die politiek, wat ek ondersteun. Ek wil die edelagbare die Minister ook nie ’n te sterke verwyt van die Wet maak nie. Ek weet dis ’n baie moeilike kwessie en ek weet, dat hy baie moeilikhede het en ek simpatiseer met hom in die moeilikhede. Ons het nie alleen te doen met Indiërs wat ingekom het nie, maar ook met ’n groot getal wat hier gebore is, vir wie Suid-Afrika hulle geboorteland is en ek stem toe, dat die edelagbare die Minister baie moeilikhede het, maar ondanks al die moeilikhede meen ek tog, dat so’n Wet as nou ingedien, wat so weinig praktiese effek gaan hê en wat die effek alleen sal hê by groot plekke, in die stede, nie had ingebring moet word nie. Die Wet beteken op die oomblik vir die dorpe niks nie en vir die buitedistrikte ook niks nie. Daar sal die toestand bly net soos dit nou is, nee, ons gaan dit nog Veel gevaarliker maak as wat dit vandag is op die platteland. Daarom sê ek, sien ek nie waarom die Wet gemaak is nie. Ek weet die edelagbare die Minister se moeilikhede en as ek hier kritiseer, dan doen ek dit alleen omdat die edelagbare die Minister gekom het met maatreëls wat ver van hulle punt is en die net rede gegee het tot groot agitasie. Ek sê, dat hierdie Wetsontwerp die witmense baie min sal help, maar ek dink, dat as die Wet in komitee kom, dat ons dan nog veel kan doen om dieselwe te verbeter.

I agree with the hon. member for Rustenburg (Mr. P. G. W. Grobler) that this is a very difficult problem, and I approach it with the same ideas. We listened last night to a speech delivered by the hon. member for Stamford Hill (Mr. Creswell), which I think was an extraordinary example of how to sit on a fence. He dodged about on the fence, and I know it caused him some pain, and then eventually he did not even come down, but rushed into the Parliamentary funk-hole, and that is, suggested that this Bill should go to a Select Committee. I gathered from his speech, it was very involved, but I gathered that his opinion was the same as it always has been, that was, that he would do nothing to strengthen legislation in order to protect the white trader of this country. In his speech he stated that the Asiatic or the Indian could not for any length of time be kept as a political helot. That means that he must get equal privileges.

Not for a time.

Not for a time, but eventually. I would1 ask the hon. member then: Is he prepared to give the Asiatic the political privileges, and not give it to the people of our own country who are equally civilized?

I am not prepared to give it them to-day at all.

The hon. member says not to-day, perhaps to-morrow, but after listening to him last night, I came to the conclusion that he was prepared to give the Asiatics what they demanded, and that was that they should get political privileges. I was very glad to hear the allusion which the hon. the Minister, who introduced this measure, made to the coloured people, in the manner he did, and one must come to the conclusion that it will be a suicidal policy if one shut one’s ears and eyes to the rumblings of the coloured people in this country, otherwise I think that the hon. the Minister made a very weak and sweet speech. It was apologetic, in fact, I expected that he would come here to-day covered with garlands of flowers from the Asiatics. I never heard such a speech by an hon. Minister who was introducing a measure of this kind. As far as I can gather from the Bill, it is really stronger than the speech we listened to last night. Take his allusion to Mr. Ghandhi and the agreement. He put it very clearly how the Union had carried out its part of the agreement, but he failed to show that the Asiatics never attempted to carry out the agreement from their side. The very next day, and within a few weeks, they commenced to form companies for the purpose of acquiring land in order to evade and circumvent the agreement they came to with the right hon. the Prime Minister, as my hon. friend said, after promising to obey the laws. The hon. the Minister evidently does not recognize that the sentiment in this country, the predominant sentiment, is that the Asiatic should go. That is a sentiment right through South Africa, and the Government must be responsive to the instincts of the people, and not hand over these traders to the Asiatics. This Bill is class legislation; it is meant to be class legislation, and it is quite certain chat it is impossible to do justice to the Indian, and at the same time give protection to the white traders in this country. One must admit that, but at the same time one must deal with them in as fair a manner as possible. The hon. the Minister pointed out their good qualities and said we were afraid of those qualities; I am afraid of their good qualities, and I am afraid also of their bad qualities. I consider that the measure is inadequate, and it is only brought forward to appease the feelings of those who clearly recognize the evil consequences of the Asiatics in South Africa. It is a mild Bill, a very mild Bill, although, as I have said, it is stronger than the speech by the hon. the Minister, which we listened to last night. In my opinion it does not go far enough in protecting the interests of the white and coloured races of this country. This Bill might be damaged, but the principle upon which it is founded, namely, segregation, will remain, and this is essential in the interests of South Africa, and of the British Empire. Now, personally, I burnt my boats many years ago, and decided then to battle to the death against the incursion of the Asiatic into this country, and for a policy of repatriation, and since then events have deepened my convictions and not weakened them. I have sought and tried to find a solution other than repatriation, but I have failed, and I have come to the conclusion, as I did then, that the solution and the only solution is repatriation unflinchingly, repatriation voluntarily if possible, compulsorily if necessary, and, at any rate, compensation for all. That, I think, is the only policy which will meet the requirements of South Africa. I would suggest to hon. members that if they have not read the evidence and findings of the Select Committee and the Commission on the Asiatic problem, that they do so, and if after reading them, they have no doubt as to the policy they should adopt, I would recommend them to take a trip to Natal or to the Western Transvaal, there they will see the havoc and destitution which has been created by the Asiatic trader in those parts. They will find these people are a commercial community and their clerks are numerous, and wherever you find an Indian trader there is no white trader near. And Asiatic trading is on the increase in the Western Transvaal, notwithstanding all the measures which have been brought forward to prevent it, and if you want to see the effect, go to Klerksdorp. There you will find 15 Europeans with a turnover of £88,410 and 20 Asiatics with a turnover of £74,919. In Johannesburg there are 2,000 licences for hawkers and traders given to Asiatics. These people have been alluded to as having been treated like dogs. Well, most of them, or their ancestors came here with nothing but a bootlace round their loins, and they have accumulated great wealth, and I should like to ask those who have made such statements, whether the Indians who have gone back to India are as prosperous as these who it is said look as if they had been treated like dogs? They do not pay anything for the upkeep of civilized life. I should like you to go to Krugersdorp and you will see there a building put up by the traders, Messrs. McCluskie and Tewater, in 1891, and to-day that building is owned and the business kept by an Asiatic, a Mr. Nadoo. That is one instance, but there are many more. It is not owing to their great and superior abilities, that is not everything, but it is also to the method of their business, and their mode of living. You will find a shop full of assistants, but the wages to those hardly equal the wages paid to one white trader.

You can remedy that.

I would like hon. members to bear in mind that it is the underselling and underliving of the Asiatic that is the great advantage they have over the white trader, and the white trader must either adopt their modes and methods of life, or die. I would say this, if there is to be no repatriation of the Asiatics, that the Government should take into consideration some scheme for repatriating the white trader of the Transvaal and Natal. We are asked by the hon. the Minister to take the long view. Well, to take the long view one must maintain and increase, if possible, the white population of South Africa. It is to South Africa the cardinal national problem. We in this country are top-heavy. As a nation and as a people you have in the first place, one Asiatic for every nine white people; and a million and a half whites to 6 million natives, that is four natives to one white. I see the computation made that in fifty years’ time there will be 3,650,000 whites as against 19,000,000 natives. Those are staggering figures, as anyone who thinks, must think when they look at those figures. One can only come to the conclusion that South Africa has a threatening future with this large number of natives, and the dismal sight of the poor whites always before us in this country. It is a tragic race for South Africa, whether the white race or the black race will ultimately be in charge and authority, and rule in South Africa. This is a domestic and national problem. The Asiatic does not live the life we do. They have a different civilization, and it is surprising to me that there should be any objection to segregate them. I will quote a great authority, a greater authority than I, as to why they should accept segregation, and why there should not be this agitation against it. This authority stated—

That is not my view, that is not my opinion. [Hon. Members: “Who said it?”] This is a speech delivered by Mrs, Naidu at Mombassa. I have not seen it contradicted. The Asiatics have quite a different civilization to our own and therefore they are a menace to European civilization in this country, they are a menace to the authority and supremacy of the white races in South Africa. We should do whatever we can to assist the endeavours of the white races, and not handicap them in this country. If hon. members expect the Asiatics to live and work with the white races in this country, they expect a miracle, and if you grant equal political, social, and economical rights to them in this country, you are placing a razor in their hands to cut the throats of the white people here. That is what they will do if they get the opportunity, that is what they intend doing, and that is the only thing which will satisfy them. We have the right to determine the constitution of our own population. We must see that South Africa’s autonomous rights are upheld. We must deny the right of any power outside to dictate what we shall do or shall not do in South Africa, and we must be actuated entirely by what are the best interests of South Africa. We have a missionary from India, and this missionary comes here, it is supposed on behalf of the South African Indians, but really to get metal and power to go and fight their own political warfare in India. She is representing the Indians in India who are wallowing there in the mire of ingratitude, ingratitude to the English for what they have done for India and the Indians. What return do they give? They are Indianizing the army, and they are expelling the Civil Service as fast as they can, a Civil Service which was alluded to as the framework of India. I want to read what Mr. Sastri says—

That is Mr. Sastri, a great power and a great authority in India. Now, how can one expect fair treatment for the people holding those views, and showing the gratitude which they are doing to the British people who have enabled them to work up to a position whereby they can get Home Rule in India. And this missionary who comes here—I wonder that it is allowed, and it will take years to get over the effects of the doctrine which has been preached during these last few weeks—

What about free speech?

She is not a missionary to convince by persuasion, but by threats and incites Asiatics to passive resistance and bloodshed.

No, I deny that.

I can quote a speech in which she advocated passive resistance.

That is what the newspapers say. We know what the newspapers are.

Yes, because they show the hon. member up, and hon. members over there do not want showing up, and having the truth told about them. These threats and incitements, Í say, leave the people of this country cold, and those who make them, little know the stuff which the people of this country are made of, if they think that we are going to take notice of boycotts, incitements, threats, or anything else. Now we are told no Indian inside or outside South Africa shall decide. Loyalty is the first obligation of helpfulness to those in authority, and I yield to no one in my loyalty to the British Empire and in belief and faith in the British Empire. I have been born and bred in this country, and am a South African in spirit, and I would like to see any man in South Africa who likes South Africa and the South African people more than I do. Having these feelings I say South Africa first—safety first for South Africa. If you give these people equal civil rights, if you give them equal economic rights, and if you give them equal political rights, it will be a false policy and suicidal. You will be handing over the country to them, and rather than they should be given equal civil rights, equal economic rights, and equal political rights, I would join a movement to contract South Africa out of the Empire. It would be very much more dangerous to the Empire and to South Africa, to have this country ruled by Indians. This question may become an international question, India realizes that the status of its nation also is at stake, and the Indians realize they are fighting for a position which will reflect right throughout the world; what is decided here will have an effect right through the world. They are original members of the League of Nations, and this is their foreign policy; it is our domestic and foreign policy and the two policies cannot meet. I am aware of the problem, it is a great problem, but I hope that South Africa recognizing the susceptibilities and suspicions of the Indians, South Africa recognizes its destiny and its own future. We, in this country, should do whatever we can to support the people of Kenya. They are holding the fort there for the white races in this country—they have a population of 10,000 whites against 32,000 Asiatics, a proportion of 3 to 1.

The hon. member brought the Asiatics into this country.

My hon. friend represents nothing. He had better keep quiet. He knows the policy of all parties; he has tried them all. I believe that this problem should be treated with sympathy and imagination, but it must be treated with firmness, and in conclusion all I have to say is, hon. members should speak up and hot allow the intentions of this Bill to be lost, because the existence of the white race in this country is at stake.

I welcome the good intention of the Government and of the hon. the Minister, which goes in the right direction, but as far as the law is concerned, it makes me think of the reply which the Hon. Hugh Wyndham once gave to a question when he was a candidate for Turffontein. Someone asked him his opinion of the education law in the Free State, introduced by the hon. member for Smithfield (Gen. Hertzog), and he said: “I know nothing about the law, but I think it is a very bad law.” As far as the present measure is concerned all I can say is that it is a very inefficient Bill, but I welcome the intention of the Government to bring in a law in the right direction, a law which aims at the segregation of an element which is socially and economically detrimental to the white people of South Africa. In one of two respects the Bill treads on bad, if not dangerous, grounds. The agitation which stirred the Government to bring in the Bill has risen from an ordinary material point. I do not consider the commercial or the material point, but I would rather approach the Bill more from the idealistic or social point. From that point it is of vital importance to the white man in South Africa. The hon. the Minister of the Interior last night referred to my constituency in rather unflattering terms; he talked about Vrededorp being a slum—I know he did not mean that of Vrededorp itself, but that adjoining Vrededorp there was a slum, and he is quite right in that. Now I only want to point out how the slum originated. In 1900 there was an outbreak of plague in Johannesburg, as any man who lived there at the time will remember, in the old Brickfields, adjoining the coolie location, and the location was appropriated and everything burned. The coolies —I do not use the word in a derogatory term, but apply it to a class—the coolies were transferred to where they are at present, and ground was given to them by the Railway Administration, part of the railway grounds and part of the Malay location. As the hon. the Minister of the Interior mentioned last night, there are a few Indians who are really the landlords of this location, especially the Malay location—a few of them, somehow or other, got hold of the land which was then given, there are about six of them, and four of them draw about £600 a month as rent from the places, which have been sub-let to Cape coloured people and to kafirs. That is the position as far as the neighbourhood is concerned. I do not blame the coolie landlords as much as the town council of Johannesburg. The town council of Johannesburg, as well as the Government, have greatly neglected their duty as far as a settlement of this question is concerned. It is a sad fact, and I do not see why the people who live in Vrededorp should have next to them a slum like this, and when the House realizes that the white people who live in the district are mostly Dutch South Africans, and are the descendants of those people who have made it possible for me and others to live in safety there to-day, the descendants of the voortrekkers, and because they are poor, is it fair that a slum like this should be planked down next to them? They have agitated for years and years to have this eye-sore removed, and it is a crying shame on the part of the Government and the town council, that this has not been done. These are the descendants of the old voortrekkers, but because they are poor a slum like that is allowed to exist next to their habitations. We want to see that slum removed as an act of justice. I say it is the duty of the Government to bring pressure to bear on the town council to have this thing rectified. I personally, as the Bill stands to-day, cannot vote for it, although I realise it lays down a policy of segregation, but if the hon. the Minister of the Interior would undertake to accept a few amendments which I will suggest, I would vote for the Bill. In the Bill as it stands, if it becomes law, the land occupied by the Indians to-day will come into their possession. Can the hon. the Minister assure me that that will not be the case? I am told by a legal friend that if the Bill becomes law, the coolie location in Johannesburg will be constituted a coolie location. If the hon. the Minister will give me the assurance, or the town council will allocate a certain area for white people, so that they can be removed with justice, I would vote for the second reading of the Bill, but until I am convinced of that I cannot vote for it. Another thing which it seems to me ought to be done. It seems to me that the municipalities have an unlimited time in which they can apply to have the law imposed. I think a time limit should be imposed. Every municipality, if the Bill becomes law, should have a limited time, say two years, they must apply to the Government within two years to have the areas allocated, and if they do not do so, the Government through its commission must allocate the ground at the expense of the town council. We cannot expect one town to apply immediately, while another may not apply for 10 or 20 years. We, in Johannesburg and my constituency in Vrededorp, have for years been agitating to have this eyesore removed. We are not interested in the material aspect, we are interested in the social condition of the people living there. I know of a case in Fordsburg where a man built a good house and in the same street, on the other side, Indians came and put up a place. Well, that man cannot allow his children to go out in the mornings, because in the yard opposite the Indians perform their ablutions. It is a disgraceful state of affairs. We do not want to be unkind or unjust to any section of the community, but we have to do here with a question of self preservation, and self preservation comes first. It is all very well to say that, the Indian is here, and that he must remain here. It is unfortunately true, as my hon. friend the member for Rustenburg (Mr. P. G. W. Grobler) has said, that the cause of the trouble is Natal. The reason of the Indian being in the Transvaal cannot be laid at our doors, we are not responsible for it—he is there because the Imperial Government, when we objected to the Indian coming in, took up a hostile attitude— in fact it was a casus belli, and they said that unless we had these people there, England would go to war with us. I think the time has come when we should set aside all hypocrisy and cant. Hypocrisy and cant have been the ruin of greater countries than South Africa, and if we want to preserve ourselves we must be clear, concise anti open on this question, and we must tell the Indian that he is not a portion of the South African people, like the kaffir or the coloured man; he is an absolute stranger in South Africa, and if he wants to remain here, he must conform to the rules and the ideals of the white people. If he does not want to do that, then he must take the consequences, either by being segregated or being separated, which to my mind is the same thing, he must go back to his own country. We in the Transvaal, that is the party to which I have the honour to belong, have declared that our policy is one of repatriation and compensation. If a man has a shop, we say what is the value of the shop, what is the value of the business, and we say that he should be paid out. The business will then revert to the State and the State can liquidate that business. Our slogan is “repatriation with compensation.” I say again that as far as my constituency is concerned, we have no material object in view, we are concerned with the preservation of our own white children, we want to see that they shall not associate with classes, however old their civilisation may be, which do not conform with our ideals. I know that the hon. the Minister of the Interior is honest on this matter, and I want to ask him a straight question to which I want a straight answer. I want to know whether, if this Bill becomes law, the coolie location adjoining Vrededorp will be an area in which the coolies will be assured. If that is the case then I am afraid that I cannot vote for the Bill. But if that is not so, then I shall vote for the second reading.

I want to speak on this matter as one who was born and bred in this country. I have always taken up the attitude that we have sufficient coloured people in South Africa as it is. Twenty or thirty years ago, when the Rhodes and the Sprigg Ministries were in power, we approached them and asked them to do something in regard to the immigration of Indians into this country, but were told that these people were British subjects and that they could not be stopped. I told them then, as I am saying to-day, that the day will arrive when something will have to be done to stop it. They did not listen in those days, because they did not see what would be the outcome of it, and to-day we have all parties here saying that something must be done, and I think that everyone, every party of the House, will approach this in the proper spirit, the spirit of South Africa, putting all parties aside, and see what is best, what we should do for South Africa. That is the way in which I, as a man born in this country, look at it. My aim and object is to see that the coming generation will see that we have done something for South Africa, and not that we have been guilty of a thing which is not in the interests of the country. The Indians have come into this province in large numbers, though not in as large numbers as they have come into Natal. I must say that I sympathize with Natal, but as far as this province is concerned, the Indians have not alone eliminated the white races, but they have also eliminated the coloured and Malay traders who used to be in these parts. If we look back a number of years we can remember how we used to see the green-grocers, the hawkers, the men who sold the vegetables through the streets—they were nearly all coloured and Malay men. Today the coloured and the Malay men have gone out of that occupation, and 90 per cent. of the trade is done by coolie traders. The coolies have a monopoly as hawkers, they have a monopoly in the selling of fish, they do all the trade. The Malay man who used to do that class of business has gone out. It used to be a pleasure to see the Malay going about the streets selling his fruit and his fish, but to-day that is all passed.

What does he do now then?

Now, he is a labourer and he does other work. And many of those men to-day stay at home and live on what their children earn. The Indians have knocked these people out. And why? Simply because the Indians employ no one, they live cheaper than other people do. They live as the old saying is, on the smell of an oil rag, and surely if you employ no one, and if you live on nothing, if you do all the work yourself, if you spend nothing, you can knock out the man next to you, and that is the reason today why you do not see any of our respectable and most loyal people, the Malays, in this city. We would have no objection if the Indians had uplifted the standards of life, but they have not, and therefore I say that something must be done. Take the district which I represent. In that district there are over 150 Indian shopkeepers, in fact nearly all the shops in that area belong to them. You cannot make a mistake if you go in. There are over 500 registered voters in that ward. I am not catering for votes in this matter, because what I say will go against me in the voting there, but what I am saying is for the good and the welfare of South Africa. If you go on as we are doing, there will be no need to establish locations here. The whole of this will be an Indian location. And then there is another danger. They are buying up the property in our district, they are ousting the unfortunate coloured man. Several of these people have come to me for weeks and months now. The Indians have bought the property, they are going to live in it themselves, and they are pushing these people out. I say that the Indians are not people of this country. I believe that there is a lady going round, a very respectable and nice lady, and she telling them that they have as much right here as we have. I say nothing about it. If the native or the coloured man tells me that he has more right here than I have, well, good luck to him. I do not believe that because this lady has come here that we should remain silent, but she seems to have mesmerized some people here with her speeches; she has mesmerized them, and they have changed their minds.

Has the hon. member been mesmerized?

No, but I think the other side has.

Pulverized!

I can tell the House without any fear of contradiction, and I am certain that that lady who is going round will bear me out, that it is not fair for every woman and child of the Indian community of Cape Town, there is an Indian shopkeeper. If every white man, woman and child, if every coloured man, woman and child had a shop, where would the business come from?

I give it up.

I believe that the only solution is compensation and repatriation. Let them leave the country. That is the fairest and the only way. If you want to do good to the people, if you want to do justice, then do that. I say act fairly and squarely to them. You can say to them: “What did your business cost you, what is the value, we will ask you that, and we will pay you that, and you can go to your own country.” Let them all go and live together and they will live much happier, and I believe that if that were put fairly and squarely to the Indians to-morrow, that they would agree. If only the agitators would stay away it would be a good thing, but it is the agitators who are causing the trouble. It is the vote for the next general election which is causing all the trouble. But I say that the time has come when something must be done. The time has arrived when the Indians should be fairly and squarely compensated and should be made to leave the country. It is no use the Labour Party talking about this matter—the Indians do not live up to a fair standard of wages. They are ousting everyone, not only in Natal, but here, and for that reason the time has come when we should do something. I believe everybody knows, whether he belongs to Labour, Nationalist or South African Party, and if he has any love for his country, that the time has come when it must be done. I hope and trust it will be done, that our childrens’ children will not rise up and curse us.

Is the hon. member supporting this Bill?

I will go further than that. I would like the Government to introduce a provision that the Asiatics have got to leave the country. It would be better for them and for us. That is why I advocate it, and I am not afraid of it. I believe that this movement on the part of the Government is in the right direction, and I hope and trust that the Government will consider the clause to compensate Asiatics and get them out of the country. If we do not do it, the coming generations will suffer.

Has the hon. member read the Bill?

I have read the Bill—perhaps more than the hon. member has. I know more about the Indians than many in this House, because I live alongside of them. I wish we were like the Free State, where there are only 100 Indians; and I hope that next year, perhaps something else will crop up, and we can then give compensation and give the Asiatics a chance to leave the country, even if it costs a million. If it costs twenty million or fifty million we will be better off, and despite the interjection of the hon. member for Salt River (Mr. Snow) he knows in his heart it is true.

Where would the money come from?

The hon. member sometimes eats his words. He always shouts that if there were a war to-morrow we would find the money. But let them live together happily; we should not split up their families at all. You say they are sweated in Natal. I want to get them out of it.

Who brought them?

I do not know, and it is not my business, but there has been no fetching since the Union Government was created. I appeal to all to do the best we can, and I believe that both sides of the House will agree that the time has arrived when we should compensate them, and get them out of the country.

I think that the House will agree that one of the finest speeches, if not the finest, made in connection with this measure was made by the hon. member for Durban (Central) (Mr. Robinson). I think that he dealt with the question in a manner that appealed to every member of this House, no matter what his opinion might be. But in connection with legislation of this description the only grounds on which we can justify ourselves in supporting or introducing such legislation is on the grounds of race preservation. That is the only ground we have on the grounds of the preservation of the white race. If it is a question that the white community are going to be destroyed, or on the other hand, that the Indian community are going to be removed, shifted from the country, segregated, or separated into certain areas; then I say that naturally one would stand up for the members of one’s own race. Even the Indians themselves would do that, let alone the coloured men or the natives. If one had to choose between the welfare of the white community and that of the coloured, native or Indian communities, I say that the natural instinct in the human breast is to choose one’s own race; and I say the only justification we can have for introducing colour legislation, because it is colour legislation, is on the grounds of the preservation of the white community of South Africa. We cannot argue in connection with this Bill on ethical grounds for a moment. If we attempt to argue on those lines, then this lady who has come to this country to plead the cause of her fellow-countrymen, and I admire her for it, will beat us every time. You cannot square this legislation with the sermon on the Mount. I do not look upon her as a dangerous agitator; I have listened to her, I personally have listened to what she has had to say, and I say if we are going to do as the hon. member for Krugersdorp (Sir Abe Bailey) has said, take action to shout down anyone who expresses an opinion with which we disagree, what becomes of our vaunted British liberty and our glorious Empire under which everyone has a right of free speech and expression, so long as he does not indulge in licence? With all due respect to the newspapers of this country, and I find that when one speaks of the newspapers it is always twisted into attacks on the reporters who have to earn their living, I would not condemn anyone in South Africa on what I read about them in the newspapers, because I do not care what the newspaper does or what particular interest that paper represents, in most cases you will find their news is coloured by the views of that particular paper—

Question!

There is no question about it. I say that the misrepresentations that have gone on, on the part of newspapers, have done a tremendous amount of mischief, and the policy adopted by them is responsible to a very large extent for the racial antagonism and bitterness between the Dutch and English and the various classes in South Africa. I say that, because newspapers exist to-day, not for the purpose of supplying news to the public but for the purpose of—

Order. I would remind the hon. member that the Class Areas Bill is under discussion.

I will also remind the House that the hon. member for Krugersdorp (Sir Abe Bailey) founded his case on newspaper reports. That is my honest opinion in connection with the newspapers, and I do not blame any particular newspaper, they are all alike.

Even the Labour newspapers?

As I say, the only justification we have for this measure is on the grounds of the preservation of the white race. What special steps are being taken under this measure to protect the white community of South Africa against what people are pleased to call the “Asiatic menace”? Let us look at this measure from the point of view of those people who really want to do something effective to deal with the Asiatic for the purpose of protecting one section of the community of South Africa only. Let us look at it from their point of view and ask ourselves whether it is going to accomplish the object they have at heart. We find here that practically the whole of the principles, if one can call them such, contained in this Bill, are contained in Clause 1. Clause 1 states—

Let us take the position of Durban at the present time. You have a white trading community in West Street. You have Grey Street which is practically Asiatic, and Grey Street crosses West Street. When this Bill is put into force, you will have a white trading community in West Street and an Asiatic community in Grey Street. Have you met the case put up by the commercial people of South Africa for protection in the slightest degree, and for the future? Some hon. members say this Bill will make provision to deal with the future, if so, what is going to happen? If the Asiatic remains inside Africa, eventually he is going to claim the right, and you will not be able to resist that claim of what the hon. member for Krugersdorp (Sir Abe Bailey) calls, the right of full citizenship in South Africa. He is going to claim the right to go from one province to another, and now you say you will bring the present Bill into effect, and declare class areas in this or that particular town, but these class areas must be in the centre of the town. The Bill lays it down that that area must be in a suitable position, that the municipalities must supply all the necessaries of life, such as water, light, and roads, and the facilities that they offer other citizens. The result is that you simply create an Asiatic bazaar in the town with all the attractions of oriental splendour, and people will simply get into the habit of taking a run down to the Asiatic quarter to do their shopping.

Asiatic squalor.

If the municipalities and the Government only put their health regulations into force, then you have no fear of oriental squalor, it must be remembered you have white squalor in many of our towns to-day. I have seen sights within the white community which should cause every thinking man in the country to blush. The Indians themselves say that they are quite agree able to have our health regulations in force, and to the introduction of a wages board and a minimum wage for the purpose of placing them on a fair and square basis, as far as competition is concerned. That is the case they put up when we interviewed them. But let us get back to this Clause 1. That will leave the position exactly where it is to-day, as admitted by the hon. the Minister of the Interior when he introduced the measure, and leave it as it will be in the future, because it will be entirely ineffective to deal with the matter, even from the point of view of the commercial classes of South Africa. I cannot see for the life of me how any hon. member who comes from Natal can possibly support this measure under the opinion that it is going to do anything of an effective nature. After the Asiatics have been separated into these different areas they will still be able to send their orders out. If an Asiatic is running a butcher’s shop, or any other kind of shop, he can send out his canvassers to obtain orders. Another thing which I personally object to in this Bill is contained in Clause 2 where you throw the whole of the financial burden upon the shoulders of the municipalities, the financial burden of cutting up these new townships, making roads, and supplying light and water is thrown on the shoulders of the already overburdened municipalities.

They do not object to it.

The hon. member only represents a very small section, and there is a big difference between the opinions of the people, and the opinions of that little group which happens to be at the top, and which happens to be represented by the hon. member. We have to choose in this country between a one-stream policy or a two-stream policy in connection with the coloured question, and we cannot continue in South Africa to go on as we are going on now, for the various races to intermingle in your towns and industries without eventually giving full civic rights to the coloured people, including the Indians. That is as sure as the sun rises to-morrow. You cannot keep a section of the people down in the scale of civilization. And as the hon. the Minister said, you never took up this attitude in regard to the Indian until the Indian himself rose, in the social scale, and became a competitor with the commercial classes. Just as the Indian has developed and has risen in the social life of the country, and has become a menace to the commercial classes of South Africa, so also will the coloured man rise, become intelligent, and become a menace to the commercial classes in the community. You will have the same trouble all over again unless this question is tackled from an economic point of view. One cannot get away from the fact. [An Hon. Member: It is the colour bar.”] If the hon. member over there, who is always attacking us from the North, will eliminate the colour bar in the Cape Colony, he will do better.

I have been doing that while the hon. member has been talking.

I am not talking about the colour bar, but I believe that the native communities of this country should not have certain areas set apart in patchwork fashion in different towns, but they should have definite parts of the country where they can develop according to their own ideals. We are not like hon. members over there, who are keeping these people in the urban centres, not for the benefit of the people themselves, but for the purpose of exploiting them by employing them at a cheap rate. I can only explain my position on the Bill. The hon. member for Tembuland (Mr. Stuart) is blaming me for what I am not responsible for. I can only put forward my views, the Lord alone can give him the intelligence to understand. When the hon. member for Krugersdorp (Sir Abe Bailey) and the hon. member for Woodstock (Mr. Purcell) get up and talk about “South Africa first”, what do they mean?

Waterston last.

Do they mean the South African people first? No, sir, for when it comes to the question of getting a little more gold from the rock of this country, well, they will bring Chinamen into the country and exploit its natural wealth by cheap Asiatic labour. Let us put this talk of “South Africa first” away altogether, unless hon. members are prepared to talk of the interests of the South African people first. The hon. the Minister of the Interior stated that the Bill had not been understood from two points of view, from the Indian community point of view which said that this Bill was going to inflict some hardship on them, and the other point of view, that it was going to be ineffective. I agree with the hon. member for Krugersdorp (Sir Abe Bailey) that we cannot take any steps to protect the white community, without harming the coloured community. You cannot possibly segregate these people without taking away from them a certain amount of revenue they are getting to-day, and putting it in the hands of the white community. If hon. members say that that is justice, then I do not know what the meaning of the word is. The hon. the Minister also went on to say that the object of the Bill was not to injure the Indians, but to do away with commercial, racial, and social friction, between the different communities. In Johannesburg at the present moment the people are picketing the shops of the Indians. I know when we picketed during the strike it was illegal, and we were branded as agitators, as a lawless lot of individuals who ought to be put in gaol. But what is the law doing today? The people up there are picketing the shops of the Indians, and if you have the Indians segregated into these Asiatic communities, are you going to remove racial, social and commercial friction among these two communities? Not at all, sir, you are going to accentuate it. By this Bill you will still continue and intensify your racial and commercial friction. Again I say this Bill is not going to serve the purpose for which it was introduced. The hon. the Minister went on to say that he was prepared to favourably consider the exclusion of the Cape from the operation of the Act. Why the Cape? One does not wish to impute unworthy motives to any hon. member, but is it because there are 38,000 coloured voters in the Cape, and that hon. members who represent Cape constituencies wish to placate the coloured vote? So far as the Indian menace is concerned, you have the same conditions prevailing here in Cape Town as in any other part of South Africa, and if there is no justification for the application of this measure to the Cape I say there is no justification for its application to the Transvaal and Natal. This is a national question and if the Bill is to be passed it should be applied to the whole of South Africa. Is it the intention of hon. members to make the Cape Colony a black colony and the others white? They are travelling along that road in their desire to placate the coloured vote of the Cape.

Does the hon. member think we are wrong?

The hon. member could not keep quiet if he tried. I think it is entirely wrong to exclude any portion of this country when you are introducing a measure which should apply to every part of it. If it is wrong for the Cape, it is wrong for the Transvaal and Natal. I know the hon. member for Tembuland (Mr. Stuart), who represents the natives in this country, or is alleged to do, is continually trying to make political capital in order to keep his seat. That is the object which the hon. member has in view. In conclusion, I wish to say unless hon. members are disposed to approach all questions appertaining to the coloured people in South Africa in an entirely non-party spirit, unless we approach these question in this spirit, and meet the representatives of these communities round the table and talk these matters over, we shall never solve the problem that confronts us to-day. Let us do justice to every section of the community, let us talk these matters over and try to arrive at some definite decision. Let us eliminate this idea of party from such discussions, instead of attempting to try and make the other fellow commit himself, in order to make party capital out of it. The white community have got to realize that this question affects the whole community and not one section, and we must have unity of action or we will fail. I cannot understand why hon. members in this House who represent the commercial classes in South Africa do not stand by the working community of this country, in order to get a higher standard, and enable them to earn a decent salary, so that they can maintain their wives and families in the way that they should. If some hon. members succeeded in their designs we would have a white shopkeeper class in South Africa, and a black proletariat. That is the way you would modify it. It is up to every member of the House to cast class prejudice to one side and let us come together on the best field of action. I cannot support this measure, because, as I have said, there is no justification for my doing so, the justification would be that it was attempting to do something to preserve the white race in this country. This Bill does not do that, but while inflicting an injustice on one race, it is doing no good for the other. It has created a tremendous amount of friction between the Indians and the white races, but leaves us exactly where we were. In the circumstances, I cannot possibly vote for the Bill. I am reminded of a story of a man and his wife and child being in a boat, and the boat was going down, and the man left his wife and child for the purpose of saving the wife and child of another man, and left his own to be drowned. If in this Bill we had to choose between the white community and the coloured community going down, I am perfectly frank when I say that I would support the white community if we could possibly secure something for the white community. We should have unity of action, and I would ask the hon. the Minister to withdraw the Bill and to introduce something in the interest of the white community of the present generation, and in the interest of the future generations of the white people of South Africa. I remember a speech made by Dr. Abdurahman in which he said he hoped the time would come when the coloured race would rule South Africa as a black republic. I am not satisfied with the measure, and hope that even at the eleventh hour the Government will withdraw the Bill, and adopt some other method of preserving the white race in South Africa, not in the interest of commerce or of any section, but in the interest of the future generation in South Africa.

I rise to support the Bill, and for the reason referred to by the last speaker in his closing sentences. I want to preserve the white race and to keep a place for our wives and children in the country. I look upon this measure as the first instalment of calling a halt in the economic penetration by an economically inferior race. I should like to see the scope of the Bill extended to rural areas, and I would like to see that no licences are granted in the rural districts and towns to Asiatics, and no more land sold to them. Precisely for the reasons mentioned by the hon. member, we are justified in doing this for the preservation of our white race. This Bill calls a halt, to the process of undermining our future, and precisely for this reason I support the measure. So for as Zululand is concerned we have no Asiatic question; we have kept ourselves free of them. The hon. the Minister said that he would like hon. members to reflect that the present condition of things in the country would not last for ever: that it was a matter for this generation, if the European population was to increase to the extent he wished to see. In replying, I would say that if the Asiatics remain here and undermine our economic life as they are doing, then I am afraid there will be no increase in the European population. I want to consider the figures given by the hon. the Minister to support his contention. Take the question of the population of the country. The argument is that the European population has increased faster than the Asiatic population. Therefore, there is nothing to fear. During the years 1919-’1921, the figures show a decrease, says the hon. the Minister, in the Indian population of 500 males and an increase of 8,000 females, while during the same period the European population increased from 98,000 to l36,000, an increase of 40 per cent. compared with the Asiatics of 6.2 per cent. The Minister asks us to look ahead. I want the hon. the Minister to look ahead and I want him to consider all the facts underlying these figures. The Indian population of Natal has increased during the census periods, by only 6.2 per cent., but the Indian women have increased by 17.5 per cent., and the 17.5 per cent. increase consists of the breeders of the race. During the period between the census, I calculate that at least 50,000 Indians left the country permanently. It is difficult to get the exact number of permanent departures from the records. But 50,000, I think, represents as near the truth as it is possible to get. The greater number of these 50,000 were men, and in the past the majority of Indians resident in Natal have been men. To-day there are more women to go round, more breeders for the future; so from this point of view there must be a more rapid increase. There will also be fewer departures, because many of the Asiatics were born in this country and are not likely to return whatever inducements are offered. And there is the additional inducement for increase in the improved economic conditions to which the Indian population has attained. In all the circumstances, after careful consideration, I am convinced that the Asiatic race in Natal will double itself during the next twenty years. That is my honest conviction from a study of the statistics. Now in 1911, we had only 133,000 Indians in Natal. They did not cause us any worry. No one troubled about them. There was no Indian question. But there is one to-day, although they have only increased to 141,000. And why is it? The true fact is this. The Asiatic population of Natal has left the farms. There has been a rural exodus. They have gone to the urban areas. And in the Durban municipality, in the municipal area around Durban, including the suburbs, we find to-day an Indian population of 47,811. There are more a little further afield. Now that means this, if it means anything at all, and it has already been spoken of by other members. It means that all those Indians who formerly were largely agricultural labourers, have now become town workers, and they have entered into economic competition with the white workers of the towns. The whole aspect of things has changed from a rural to an urban problem. Then I want to refer to another matter in connection with what the hon. member for Durban (Central) (Mr. Robinson) said. His figures are correct, but I submit that he did not draw the true inference to be drawn from these figures. He tried to show that in Natal certain skilled tradesmen were getting a higher wage than before, and the inference to be drawn was that this was on account of the presence of Asiatics. Let me give the true aspect also from the statistics of the hon. member, about the position in Natal in comparison with other parts of the Union. The proportion of whites employed in industries in Natal is 24 per cent., as the hon. member has said, against 38 per cent. in the Cape. You have a larger coloured population in the Cape, but in Natal only 24 per cent. of the people employed in industries are Europeans, while in the Cape the figure is 38 per cent.

I gave the figures.

Yes. But let me give the other point which the hon. member did not refer to. The average wage taken as a whole earned in industry in Natal is 20 per cent. lower than in any of the other three provinces.

What is the cause of that?

That is what I am trying to argue and if the hon. member will bear with me, perhaps he will be able to follow me. Those are the figures. In the Cape the average payment per head employed in industry is £119, in the Transvaal £141, in the Orange Free State the average earnings per head in industry is £123 and in Natal—these are the last figures obtained from the census of production just put into our boxes—it is £97. £97 in Natal where you have this Asiatic population. The root cause of that position is that the wealth produced per head in Natal is lower than anywhere else in the Union. That is the explanation of what is going on through the Asiatics being in Natal. This is proved by the census figures of the value produced per head of employees in manufacture. I know my friends on the cross benches say that the workers are exploited and that the manufacturer runs away with all the wealth by paying low wages. But that statement does not bear analysis. As far as the whites are concerned, the spread of education among the whites has brought this about that the white educated, or the white civilized and fairly educated man cannot compete with the Asiatic economically. As a writer has pointed out, if you ask a European to compete with an Asiatic in the economic field, it is a cruel thing to train him up to a European standard of living, and then make him compete with the Asiatic. The actual result of the two in combination is a low standard of production. The white man is largely untrained and the Asiatic unskilled. Let us look at the position. In England for instance, from 12 per cent. to 14 per cent. of the people employed in England are juveniles—youths under’ the age of 15 8—and they become skilled tradesmen; they become the economic producers of manufacture afterwards. During the years of their juvenile training they become the skilled people of industry. In this country there are no juveniles worth speaking of if their place is taken by the Asiatic and the native, more often than not adults, and consequently the juvenile of this country never gets an opportunity of being trained in the industry of the country. That fact is displayed by our statistics. All over the Union the number of juveniles employed in industry is 1.3 per cent. as against 12 per cent. to 13 per cent. in England. The actual figures which I have here are that 197,951 persons were employed in industry in the Union of whom 2,264 were under 18 years of age.

Is that including the mines?

I am not including mining at all. These are purely the manufacturing industries. That is the reason why the doors of the South African industry are closed to the Europeans. The Asiatic and native adults take the place of European juveniles— and do all the fetching and carrying of industry. This Bill, I admit, does not deal with that phase of the question but it does this—it prevents the municipalities of this country passing into the control of the Asiatics, and in the municipalities our work shops are being created. If our work shops should also pass into the hands of Asiatics, then the position, the outlook, would be worse than it is. The hon. member who spoke last referred to the fact that in Durban the Asiatics were congregated in Grey Street. It is proposed to leave them there, we do not want to anticipate their coming to West Street or to other parts of the town, and to close those parts to European endeavour.

Yes, but they still compete.

I also want to say this to my hon. friends in that corner, that they lose sight of the importance in our economic life of the trading community. They assume that the commercial community is a negligible quantity compared with the workers in industry. I have some figures here which I want to refer to. In 1921 and 1922 in Natal there were 10,291 employees in the manufacturing industries of Natal. And there were 10,639 employees in commerce and in shopkeeping. Now it is proposed that they are to have no relief? The hon. member for Stamford Hill (Mr. Creswell) argued the other night that if you prevent these Indians from carrying on their trade, i.e., expel them from commerce, you are going to drive them into other occupations. But what are you going to do with the white employees in these trading areas whom you are going to drive out by allowing the Asiatic to extend his trading? Surely these 10,639 employees in the trades, in the shopkeepers businesses are also entitled to some consideration by hon. members over there, as well as the people employed in the manufacturing industries. I shall give the exact figures. There are 1,799 in general shopkeeping—those are the employees. There are 1,992 in the selling of provisions.

In Natal?

Yes. White employees in the trading, shopkeeping, etc., of Natal, there are 748 in tailoring and dressmaking, there are 902 in drapery, selling goods, 154 are selling ladies’ hats, etc., and the total is 10,291. I need not go on with the list. I put it to hon. members over there who are now opposing the second reading of this measure which will bring a measure of relief to these workers—I put it to the hon. members whether in opposing the Bill they are acting in the best interests of the working people. What is the panacea which they propose? Boiled down it comes to this. They say, send this Bill to a Select Committee and we will all talk round the table, and introduce a minimum wage so that the white worker will be able to get that minimum, and make a livelihood and keep the Asiatic out.

Wages boards?

Anything the hon. member likes. They say fix the minimum wage and pay them a minimum, a European standard and you will get the Asiatics out.

Equal pay for equal work.

There never was a more fallacious argument than that which is constantly falling from that corner of the House. I want to point out the true fact. First of all I will give you an illustration of the gold industry. In the gold industry we produce about £35,000,000 a year. Now gold is an article which fetches its value whatever the cost of production; whatever it costs to produce you get no more for it; it realizes the same price. I am leaving aside the misnamed gold premium for a moment, and will calculate only in terms of gold value. There is one essential deduction which must be made from that amount, and that is the value of the stores consumed in producing the gold. Whoever works the mines, these stores must be obtained and paid for out of the total. On an average this will leave, as Professor Lehfeldt has shown, about £22,000,000 to be divided among the wageearners, the shareholders, and the Government. We will leave out the shareholders, and suppose they do not get anything; we will say for the sake of argument that they get nothing. We will also leave out the Government taxation and we will take the whole of this £22,000,000 and divide it out over all those engaged in producing the metal. I think it will be agreed that the mining industry of Johannesburg is one of the most skilfully and expertly conducted industries in the world. At least, that is my opinion; I have not first hand knowledge. I assume that nowhere else in the world could they possibly produce gold of the value we produce on the Rand.

Not the administration, but up-to-date machines.

I will give this to the hon. member: Suppose we increase the efficiency by 10 per cent., by whatever superhuman means you can bring your efficiency down to, there must be a limit; you cannot produce gold by a magic wand, you must pay money to get it. If I grant an increase in efficiency by 10 per cent. it does not materially alter the facts. The actual fact of the matter to-day is that if you take that £22,000,000 and take nothing out of it in taxation, or to pay interest or dividend, it would work out about 8s. per day per worker. This is the utmost wage—8s. Is the minimum wage on the Rand to be 8s.? Then what of the Europeans engaged in it? And do we not come down to this particular fact in this country, that the high wage which the European gets is obtained by the result of the native labour? That is the truth of it. Let us take a concrete example in manufacture. We will take the Durban statistics of production in manufactures during 1921 and 1922 to be found in the blue book which has recently been issued. The total employees in Durban in industries were 22,077, and of that number, 6,698 were Europeans, and the others were 15,379. I do not know how many of them were Asiatics, but, at any rate, Europeans amounted to 6,698. All the wealth created by this 22,000 is the actual value added to the raw material in the process of manufacturing; that is to say, the difference between the cost of the raw material and the price which that thing realizes in the market. That is the actual wealth created by those workers. The amount is shown in our statistics. During the financial year 1921-1922, £4.572,440 was produced. We had to make (deductions from this; we had to deduct the cost of fuel, light, and power: for you cannot (carry on your process of manufacturing without power. You must also pay some interest upon the capital invested. The cost of light: fuel and power, accounts for £282,470. The interest of 6 per cent. on the value of the capital sunk in machinery, plant, and tools,— that is, £3,452,703,—and the interest on the value of the land, buildings, which amounts to £2,718,524,—comes to £370,273.

What has that to do with class areas?

I am arguing in reply to the amendment which the hon. member has introduced to send this Bill to a Select Committee for the purpose of introducing a minimum wage; but obviously the hon. gentleman is so far away from actual reality, that when he gets down to bed-rock he does not realize it.

What about equal pay for equal work?

I would like to hear the hon. member argue it. Out of £4,572,440 actually created by the industries of Durban £652,743 must be deducted, whoever ran these. This is without any profit or any trimmings for the employers or any exploitation of the workers. The total sum left after making these essential reductions for light, power, and interest on capital at 6 per cent., leaving nothing for depreciation or renewals or profit amounts to £3,919,697: that works out per head-on 22,077 workers—at £177. The actual wages paid to the Europeans, though, is £1,852,328, or £305 per head. The remainder of the workers, 15,379, actually obtain £43 per head. Now which is to be the minimum wage? It is obvious that more money cannot be paid to workers in industries than they create; you cannot, even if you pay no profits, even if you charge a low sum of six per cent. on your capital—without anything else taken at all from this sum of money created by the workers it works out at £177 per head. What is to be the minimum wage? If the hon. member says £177 per head, which is all the wealth created, the reply is they already get £305 per head per white employee; is he going to lower the wage to £177 per head? If the hon. member is not going to do that then he has not faced realities. I would like to hear his argument against it. I would point out a reason for this, and this shows the fallaciousness of the argument put forward in that corner. The reason for this low production per head is that our industries are in a very primitive condition indeed. The industries of the old countries produce a greater proportion per head because of their massed industries, machinery, applied science, and their skill. That is lacking in this country, and if you were to fix a minimum wage to-morrow, and insist upon the manufacturers of this country paying that minimum wage, you would merely close down all the industries because they could not produce, if that minimum wage were above the standard of wealth produced; they could not continue to pay their own employees because the wealth is not created by the industry to pay them. The industries would be closed down. The remedy is that you must protect industry sufficiently to enable it to pay a higher wage, and so make the rest of the community pay for it, or it must be done on gradual lines by building up industries on a settled policy of training our juveniles, lake the industry which the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (North) (Mr. Strachan) represents—the printing industry. It is one or the most successful of the country, inasmuch as it employs the greatest number of white employees and pays the highest amount of wages. But that is because it has a protection of 25 per cent. That is why it does it, and if you put on a protection of such a nature on the other manufacturers in this country, undoubtedly those industries will be able to pay a wage of European standard. But before an industry can produce on an European scale there must be skilled workers and the country must pay for training them, this Bill does not touch the economic question in that it cannot fix a minimum wage and it does not set one to prevent that penetration in industry which is taking place; but it enables us to prevent businesses in areas occupied by large sections of the white inhabitants passing into the hands of the Asiatics, and that is no small thing. It will prevent the ousting of Europeans employed in commerce. In Zululand itself there are no Asiatics. I represent one town in the Union, Stanger, where the Asiatics have complete control, and where the European traders cannot exist in competition. I must therefore represent the opinion of that town. I do not do this because of any vote I may get there, but because I think the time has arrived when a halt should be called.

I have always taken a particular interest in this Indian question. I was one of the founders, along with other gentlemen, who are now in this House, of the South Africans’ League to which the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (North) (Mr. Strachan) has alluded. He was quite wrong when he says that the carrying on of that League was due to trade jealousy. We took a very much wider and more national view of the Asiatic problem than he said we did in the course of his remarks. I was a member of the Select Committee on Asiatic Affairs which sat in this House in 1918. At the end of last year I went to Kenya Colony which is the furthest-flung outpost of European civilization in Africa, and where a handful of Europeans are putting up a battle against Indian aggression which should arouse the sympathy of South Africa. I studied their problems in their application to South Africa, and I feel that it would not be out of place to give the House some of my experiences in that country. There are 10,000 white people in Kenya to-day and 33,000 Asiatics.

Who came there first?

The whites were there first, and the whites, as always has been the case in Africa, were the pioneers who opened up the country, and the Asiatics, the people who came later and reaped where others had sown. Just as with us in South Africa; the whites opened up the wilderness, and the Asiatic comes now and claims equal rights. In Kenya the Indians sat on the coast for 2,000 years and never got any further, and it was left to the whites to colonise Kenya, and now the Indians demand equal rights with the Europeans. What is the position in Kenya to-day? The Indians are claiming there what they are claiming in South Africa, namely, absolute and entire equality with the European. They have been given a constitution in Kenya under the White Paper whereby the Indians are given 5 representatives on the Legislative Council, while the Europeans have 11 and the Arabs 1, and in addition to that, they are given the fullest franchise which is given in the world. There is manhood and womanhood suffrage among the Indians in Kenya to-day, but are they satisfied? No, their answer is that until they obtain absolutely equal rights, they will not take part in the elections, and they have made it known that any Indian who stands for election to the Legislative Council will be treated as a social pariah. They say that they will never rest satisfied until full social and political equality is reached by them. May I tell of an incident which occurred during my visit. On my return from Kenya, I journeyed down by train from Nairobi to Mombasa, together with a large number of Indians who were attending a conference there to be addressed by Mrs. Naidu. There are no dining cars on those trains, but refreshment places along the route. When we stopped at one point for refreshments, the Europeans and the Indians went into the first class refreshment room, seated themselves at different tables, whereupon some of the young Indian bloods deliberately crossed over to the table where the whites were sitting, and took possession of the vacant seats there, just to show that they were quite as good as the white man, and that they insisted on equal social rights. That is what we would have to put up with in South Africa if we budge an inch from the stand taken by our Prime Minister at the Imperial Conference, namely, that Indian equality with the white people will never be tolerated in South Africa. This Bill gives us an opportunity to asseverate what we all feel in our hearts: that the cause of European civilization will perish if we depart from the stand we have taken up, that political equality with the Indian is not to be thought of in this country. As to what their claims are, I do not think there is any doubt about them, judging from Mr. Gandhi’s parting words in a letter he wrote to General Smuts in 1914, in which he said—

And the more honest among the Indians make no secret of the fact that they are out to demand the same full civic rights as the European enjoys in South Africa.

They have it in the Cape to-day.

If they have it in the Cape, so much the worse for the Cape. The remaining three provinces do not have it and we in those parts believe that it would mean a deterioration of the higher standards which we have built up as pioneers of the European civilization in South Africa. In Kenya the Indians came to build the Uganda railway twenty years ago. It was a shortsighted policy to bring them. They did not come as emigrants, they were brought to Kenya in the same way as they came to Natal, and after the railway was built, they remained and in their wake came the trading class. What is the position in Kenya to-day? The hon. member for Zululand (Mr. Nicholls) speaks of only 24 per cent. of Europeans being in the industries in Natal, and says this is bad, but what would he say of Kenya where the whole of the artisan and manufacturing classes of Kenya are Indians, and the white man can look forward to nothing whatever beyond being a civil servant, or planter. To deal now of the question of segregation, Nairobi is 20 years old, and the Indian quarters are right in the heart of Nairobi, which to-day is an Asiatic Vrededorp. It is a slum. It is as central to Nairobi as Adderley Street is to Cape Town, and there they have created a slum, and yet the hon. member for Brakpan (Mr. Waterston) says that that the proposal for segregation is wrong. I say that the Indian, wherever he congregates of his own volition, creates a slum, and I ask is this not a sufficient ethical justification for this Bill? The Indian has no idea of ordinary sanitation, and the Indian in this country, the Indian proletariet, however old his civilization may be, has not yet learnt the necessity for sanitation. All we ask for in this Bill, is that those centres where Europeans live and trade shall be kept clear from the contamination caused by the uncleanly and insanitary Indians. In 1913, the British Government sent to Kenya one of the foremost experts on sanitation, Sir William Simpson. This distinguished sanitary expert furnished a report on sanitary matters in Kenya and he advocated a system of racial segregation both in the residential and commercial areas of the large towns. His views were accepted at that time, but I am sorry to say that, possibly for political reasons, the British Government has not seen fit to apply his recommendations. But although they did not apply the recommendations to the towns there is segregation to-day in the highlands of Kenya. The hon. member for Brakpan (Mr. Waterston) suggested by promoting this Bill, we are doing something which is unethical. There is nothing unethical in it. If we are unethical, the British Government were unethical in 1922 when they confirmed the application of the principle of segragation to Kenya. It is true that they did not apply it to the towns, but they applied it to the highlands. The right hon. J. H. Thomas, the new Labour Minister for the Colonies, has supported it, and has said that the Government would perpetuate the system of segregation in the highlands of Kenya. I say that the British Government itself has deliberately adopted a system of segregation, not only for Asiatics but for Europeans. Under that policy Kenya has been divided into three areas. In one area there are Europeans, and in another there are Natives, and a certain amount of land is set apart for Asiatics if they wish to farm it. The Indians in Kenya, however, are not farmers; they add nothing to the agricultural product of the country, and the same thing may be said partly of Natal and wholly in the case of the Transvaal, they are simply traders. They do not create a produce. My complaint against the Indians in the Transvaal, is that they are extraordinarily bad citizens. They have a contempt for the law, which we who practise in the Transvaal all know from experience. They are experts in the insolvency law and in any form of chicanery and dishonesty. It is said that they are law abiding. To a certain extent they are, they do not indulge in crimes of violence or robbery, but they are experts in I.G.B. and insolvency, and in evading any law which it suits them to ignore. There is no other section of the community quite so dishonest or quite so bad, in my opinion, as the Indian community in the Transvaal. I was speaking to the Assistant Attorney-General of the Transvaal some time ago, and he told me that the proportion of Indian insolvency and the criminality they show in this respect, in which they are experts, is far higher than in any other section of the community. I think it is the general feeling in the Transvaal Province that if we got rid of the Indian, it would be one of the greatest blessings to the Transvaal. When the Indian has accumulated wealth he sends it to India. He lives with one foot in India and the other in South Africa. They cannot amalgamate with the rest of the population; they are a race apart, and I feel that we would be much better off if we could get rid of them altogether. I believe that the only complete solution of this problem would be provided by their compulsory repatriation, but that is an impossible solution. The hon. the member for Rustenburg (Mr. P. G. W. Grobler) stated that none of his party favoured compulsory repatriation. I was glad to hear him say that, as I had always thought that the Nationalist Party favours compulsory repatriation of the Indians.

No, compensation and repatriation.

Well, even with compensation, I say that no amount of compensation will ever make that a practical proposition. To begin with, when one speaks of repatriating Indians back to India, one forgets that 70,000 Indians were born here, they are South Africans, they are nationals of this country, and India can refuse to receive them. The whole proposal is so unworkable that I reject it as a solution of the problem and I differ radically and wholly from the hon. member for Krugersdorp (Sir Abe Bailey) on this point. Even if it were workable, it would be unethical —to borrow the phrase of the hon. member for Brakpan (Mr. Waterston)—so unfair and unjust that, personally, I would rather put up always with the Indians we have here, than think of that kind of a solution. But that does not dispose of the matter. We have the Indians here, and only a very small proportion will ever be induced to go back, however precious we may make the bait. The 70,000 born here will not go back in any case, and only a small proportion of the rest will go back. May I say that I know something of this aspect of the problem, from my personal experience as counsel for the South African league before the Asiatic Commission. In Natal we found that so little inducement was held out to these people, and so many hindrances were placed in their way, that they would not go. It is true that later on a great many more went when the inducement was improved, and greater facilities were given, but I am not sufficiently optimistic to think that any complete solution will ever come on these lines. True, there may be an easing of the problem, it may be possible to make the inducement to these people so high, that we might get double the numbers who are now ’going to leave here, but further we cannot go, and, therefore, we are left with the question: “What is the solution, what are we going to do with those who remain here?” The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (North) (Mr. Strachan) chided the other three provinces of the Union for not breaking down the inter-provincial barriers for the migration of these people. He actually had the effrontery to say: “It is true that we brought these people into Natal, it is true we have them there, but you ought to help us now to consume our own smoke, and you should take your quota and leave us only the residue.”

I said nothing of the kind.

Well, I cannot understand how the hon. member can deny making such a statement.

The hon. member never said so.

Well, I can appeal to the recollection of hon. members here to say that the hon. member expressed the opinion that it was a great pity that these provincial laws which prohibited such inter-provincial migration, still remain in the Union. But if the hon. member does not remember it, I do.

That is a very different thing, if the hon. member said it was a pity.

Well, these Indians are in Natal, and the other three provinces of the Union do not propose to relieve Natal of them. What is Natal going to do? Is it going to allow this progressive infiltration, this penetration to continue indefinitely? How long is it going to allow this sort of thing to go on? Are we not justified on grounds of race, on grounds of difference of civilization, on difference of mode of life, in saying that there must be a halt called, and that we will initiate a process of segregation which in some measure will alleviate (because that is all it will do) this evil? And in proposing the present Bill the hon. the Minister of the Interior has not gone one inch further than the recommendations of the Asiatic Commission. I travelled for two months with that Commission and I appeared before them on many occasions as counsel for the S. A. League, and I formed a very definite opinion that that Commission was a pro-Asiatic Commission.

Hear, hear!

I do not say it in any slighting sense, but I formed the opinion that the majority of, that Commission were proAsiatic. Yet that Commission, supported as it was by the presence of Sir Benjamin Robinson, the accredited representative of the Indian Government, made the following recommendation—

I do not think that I need continue reading this quotation further. I simply want to point out that this Bill is going no further than carrying out the recommendations of that. Commission which sat for many months, and which, as I honestly considered, had a strong, pro-Asiatic bias; at any rate, that is what we thought in the Transvaal and people in Natal also thought so. And this Bill does not go much further than putting these recommendations into effect. Now I just want to say a word or two with reference to the amendment of my friends of the Labour Party. I listened to the speeches delivered by the three members of the Party and frankly I could get no definite line of thought from them. There seemed to be no definite lead given by any of them. The hon. member for Stamford Hill (Mr. Creswell) seemed to sit on the fence. At the end of his speech the hon. the Minister of Lands put a very pertinent question to him— a very apt question, “Are you going to vote for the Bill or not?” Well. I must say that I listened very carefully to him throughout his 40-minute speech, but I could not make up my mind what he intended to do. And then followed the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (North) (Mr. Strachan) and he began by saying that he agreed with everything that had been said by the hon. member for Stamford Hill (Mr. Creswell), but then in reply to a question by me dropped his pious attitude and came out fortissimo as an anti-Asiatic. As to the hon. member for Brakpan (Mr. Waterston) well, all I can say is that with his emotional sentimentality he is Mrs. Naidu in trousers, and his speech was simply one windy piece of declamation with very little solid argument. I cannot accept the amendment of the Labour Party because this Bill, though it offers no final solution, is a step in the right direction, and as far as the Labour amendment is concerned, as shown by the hon. member for Zululand (Mr. Nicholls), it is quite impracticable.

Business suspended at 6 p.m., and resumed at 8.13 p.m.

I do not often claim the attention of this House for my modest contribution to the debates that take place here, and I only do so on the subject of this Bill, because I feel that I can speak not only with authority, but out of a life-long experience of the subject and a life-long observation of the effect of the presence of the Indians on the Europeans in South Africa and their close residence together. Let me say at once, to remove a misunderstanding, that seems to have come from the speeches of other hon. members, that I heartily support the principle of this Bill. It is the first measure which has had for its object the protection of western civilization against the economic competition of a different or lower civilization which, if allowed to take its course will, indeed must, bring about the downfall of constitutional government in South Africa, under cover of which in the past all orderly progress of white, black, and brown people of this country has been rendered possible. The right hon. the Prime Minister declared the policy of South Africa with regard to the Asiatics when he was at the Imperial Conference, and I was glad to hear the approbation of the hon. member for Stamford Hill (Mr. Creswell) in regard to the Prime Minister’s attitude on that occasion, and I am only sorry that he did not make good that approbation by supporting instead of trying to destroy the Bill. I welcome also the declaration of the hon. member for Rustenburg (Mr. P. G. W. Grobler), who in a very thoughtful speech announced that he would accord his support to the Bill. The hon. member, in that robust South African way in which he expresses himself on all subjects, enjoys the respect of this House, and I think in his attitude to this Bill he stands above party considerations and expressed his support, because he realizes that the Bill will be for the good of South Africa. The right hon. the Prime Minister at Empangeni. Zululand, with a faculty for expressing the views of his fellow-South Africans in words that dignify the occasion and the subject, said—

I take it that the right hon. the Prime Minister’s reference to the basis of a white civilization meant nothing in the direction of its excluding whatever help can be derived from the other peoples who inhabit South Africa, but he wished to declare the only basis of a white South Africa would be by those people enjoying protection and progress in South Africa. And that is a principle to which I give my support. There is one point which seems to me to be taken for granted, and upon which I would desire to correct a wholly misleading impression. It seems to be taken for granted that when Natal speaks on the subject of the Indian, the mouths of those who speak are closed by the rejoiner that they and their fathers were responsible for the introduction of the Indian. I would like to point out that the introduction of the Indian was first brought about in 1859 and that is a long time ago. A good many of us were still unborn, and we were as little responsible for the introduction of the Indians, as babes unborn are responsible for what is being done here to-day. But I wish to point out that this subject was brought before the electorate of Natal, and the candidates who stood for the introduction of the Indian were defeated at the first election in Natal, that is as far back as 1858. When the Bill was finally passed for the introduction of Indians, it was passed under a Crown Colony form of Government, in which the people of Natal had less voice than the people of the Transvaal had in the introduction of Chinese at a much later date. Why then should we be obliged to share any more blame in regard to the Indians than the people of the Transvaal should in regard to the Chinese. We have returned to the position as you were. I maintain that this Bill in spite of the weakening which is being attempted from the other side of the House is going to have a good effect in laying down the principle that we are a separate people from the Indians, a separate civilization, and we are to develop on separate lines. I have lived since my boyhood with the most intense opposition to the introduction of Indians to Natal. I lived in the Transvaal during the time when the Chinese were introduced, and I entertained similar feelings in regard to them, and there is no South African throughout the length and breadth of this land who has held stronger feelings on this subject than I have. And I have lived to see the gradual undermining of the fibre of the white man in the presence of the Indian. I could take hon. members to places in Durban where European girls, to the number of 30 and 40, are in the same business under the order of an Indian, The position in some of the large houses of the merchants in Durban is, that a number of white girls are employed there, with a gradual result that they come into the power of their employers. I am not speaking without my book. I have received letters from people who have written to me giving chapter and verse in regard to these matters. Let any man in this House reflect upon the fact which I have alluded to, and still say that the presence of Indians living under the conditions that exist at the moment is desirable. There is not one true South African in this country who does not regard with misgivings amounting to fear the future of this country in the presence of the insiduous effect of the Indian upon our society. Some hon. members have taken the view that this Bill is likely to do an injustice to the Indians. The hon. member for Durban (Central) (Mr. Robinson) has expressed his misgivings about the final effect of the Bill. I should like to quote what the then hon. member for Durban (Central) said in the Natal House in 1908. Dealing with the question of Indian immigration he said—

The fact that the hon. member’s forebodings were correct is shown by much later evidence. With regard to the remarks that the South African League was inspired by commercial interests, I should like to say that that is not so. Most of the members in Natal belong to the Labour Party, and all credit is due to them on the firm stand which they have taken upon this question. In a letter which I received from Mr. Leo McGregor on this subject of the presence of the Indian in our midst, he says—

My view is, that the Bill is a beginning in separating two peoples, and that separation is going to lead to a more healthy state of things among the Europeans. There is no doubt that many Europeans themselves are blameworthy, because of the position that the Asiatic has gained. It is only by the Government giving a lead—perhaps it is only a small lead to begin with—that we shall have anything like public opinion satisfactorily aroused in regard to this question. I have dealt briefly with the economic side of the question, but there are other quite as objectionable sides to this question which one hesitates to deal with so clearly. I could produce to this House the records of a case in Durban, in which a prominent Indian was charged and found guilty of a most bestial offence committed on a white lady in a show-room, in the presence of a hundred people. I could give innumerable instances of crimen injurice, in which the presence of the Indian among the white people can be proved to be a most extreme danger to both sexes of the population. If the Indians desire a continuance of that danger, then their blood be upon their own head, as it is fraught with possibilities, which I, as a sober-minded South African, shrink from contemplating. South Africa has been free from the violence which the hon. the Minister of the Interior alluded to as having taken place in America, but there are occurrences and incidents that are frequently becoming too common, owing to the presence of the Asiatic people near the white people, which we want to avoid. We are told that South Africa has become a “university of oppression.” From the very earliest days of the introduction of the Indians to South Africa the slightest suggestion of wrong treatment has been investigated by the highest in the land, and there are on record the views of the Commission which sat as far back as the late 60’s, and which was presided over by Sir Michael Galway, one of the fairest-minded men in South Africa, and where he reported fully upon the kind of grievances ventilated by the Indians at that date. The Indians would certainly not have become as numerous as they are to-day had South Africa been a “university of oppression.” They enjoy the greatest freedom, but they now ask for an equality which any South African worth his salt would refuse to grant; they enjoy almost every facility that an European citizen is entitled to. In one of his reports the Attorney-General places on record that the people who come to this country from India were of a very low class indeed, and were unfortunately people for whom one had to make a great deal of allowance. The same feelings were held when the Chinese were introduced into this country. I have a fairly intimate knowledge why the Chinese were introduced, as I was then resident on the Rand. It was inevitable that the class of men shipped in the earlier part of the immigration was undesirable. What we are asked to do to-day is to entrench these undesirable and their progenitors. Let us consider what is the position of these people in their own country. Amongst the 250,000,000 who are wholly under British rule, there are 50,000,000 of untouchables. “Whose mere touch was by their high-class brethren regarded as pollution.” Under the present system of Government in India, because of the objection of the higher class people to associate with them or feed them, everything has been done to give representation to these miserable people. What do we find with regard to this depressed class. In the courts of deliberation of the Central Council in India, and I will read a report of deliberation that took place at that council—

According to the views of this Council, these oppressed people were not allowed to have access to wells, tanks and reservoirs built out of public funds. What about South Africa where this very particular class demands political and social equality? Are we going to take this lying down when in their own country they can get nothing like it. We have listened with great forbearance in most trying circumstances since the Bill was published a few months ago to scurrilous abuse and hatred of the right hon. the Prime Minister, the Government, and the whole of South African European communities. No European has replied by word of action. We thought that this misguided agitation would run itself out, and for our part we depended on the good sense of the Minister and this House of Assembly to deal with the matter with reasonable justice to all sections of the community. If anyone chooses to wade through a book recently published, a book entitled “Young India,” by Mr. Gandhi, they would no doubt realize that a good deal of misguided influence is at work in India which is having a reflected action in every portion of the country. We in South. Africa, realizing the eloquent words of the Prime Minister, must endeavour at this junction to place an Act on the Statute Book that is going to separate people whose ideas of civilization are different, that the races should not reside together which could only lead to hybridization and the lowering of the standard of both those people. I realize the feelings of those members from other provinces who have no Asiatics amongst them. If we desire peaceful and ordinary progress, not only of the European, but of the Indian and the native, we should make it clear that we will have nothing in the way of the disreputable agitation in South Africa. There is a class of people who are working overtime in that direction and they should be made to understand that they are playing with edged tools. There is a responsibility of the Government, and that responsibility will be fulfilled with fairness and justice as in the past. The question of the future of the Indians is one, of course, with which we are constantly confronted; whether it is intended that they should have a voice in the affairs of the country, but those who live at close quarters with this problem are of the opinion that the interests of the communities are separate, and there is a growing opinion, especially among the people of Natal, that any form of segregation is far from sufficient. The Indians have acquired land in this country which in the past has been held for hundreds of years by Europeans, on which they carry on disgraceful farming operations, as they know nothing of farming. I am in favour of a wider Bill, but I am prepared to accept the wishes of the Government, as I feel their position is a very difficult one. But I wish to bring to their notice the strong feeling amongst farmers against the undue entrenchment in land going on day by day by the Indians. The position is rendered intolerable, and the whole of the community will be up in arms against a class which cannot be considered neighbours, and who are no benefit to farming. I may also point out that I understand the Indians are taking most definite action in regard to the transfer of land, and they are taking every advantage of the clause in the Bill. I understand that already transactions are being put through, leases are being issued. I think it would be wise to make the Bill retrospective so as to counteract many of the transactions. With all the earnestness at my disposal, I appeal to the House to support this Bill in no party spirit, but to do everything in our power to settle for good this part of the problem for the good of South Africa.

We have heard a great deal this afternoon and to-night about the sins and inquities and the shortcomings of the Indian people. Now, there is another side of the question, and I think that this House and the country should be reminded of it. Hon. members will remember that in 1860 the Indians were brought into the Garden Colony under an indenture System, under which they had to develop the tea and sugar plantations of the Province. I would like the House to realize under what conditions these people came in. These people came in, and were told that at the end of their indenture system they would get some ground to farm on.

Who told them so?

If the hon. member will look at the report of the Asiatic Commission he will find that that was so.

Nothing of the kind.

What was the pay of these people? They got a bare 10s. per month, with rations and houses, and then we are told that these people are a danger because they do not live up to European standards. Why do they not live up to European standards?

What do they get in India?

We are not talking of what they are getting in India. We are talking of what they get here, and of what standard they are expected to live up to here. These people were brought here for 10s. per month, for a bare pittance in the way of wages and houses, and the cheapest possible rations that could be got for them, and, moreover, in some of these plantations the women were obliged to work and they got 5s. per month and the children over 12 were expected to work, and they got even less than that. And the hours were not 48 per week, but they were from sunrise to sunset. These were the conditions under which they came in and, under these conditions, they made Natal what it is to-day. They laid the foundations and the superstructure of the prosperity of Natal and, if there is one province of South Africa which owes a lot to the Indians, it is Natal. It is not for the other provinces to take over the burden, but Natal, if it had any gratitude, would take over the burden herself. So long as these people were working under these conditions, so long as they were badly housed and badly fed, there was no menace. So long as the rich and the exploiters could make money out of these people there was no menace, but as soon as they began to touch the pockets of these rich men, then, and then only, was there a menace.

The hon. member does not know what he is talking about.

I remember many years ago, when I was still young to South African politics, a wonderful official dispatch was sent throughout England. What was it? “That the grievances under which the British Indians suffered in the Transvaal were in themselves a sufficient cause for war,” and the Imperial heart of the Empire felt heart-broken and, I suppose, the Natal jingoes shed many tears over the poor Indians in the Transvaal—but they shed no tears for them now. I wonder what was the attitude of the hon. member for Krugersdorp (Sir Abe Bailey) in those days? What sympathy did he show to the British Indians? He and his friends made the conditions of the British Indian a pivot in order to wrest the republic from the Boers. I may say that I was one of those who had courage enough to stand against the iniquity of that agitation to bring about the Boer War, but I am not going to speak about that now. If this Bill is going to be effective, it is going to be impracticable, and if it is going to be practicable, it will be ineffective. That may appear a paradoxical thing to say, but it is so. If you are going to settle the whole Indian population into segregated areas, how are you going to do it?

The hon. member should read the Bill.

We in this part of the world cannot get houses for people to live in. In Natal it is the same cry, and there is a shortage of houses there too.

Has the hon. member ever been to Natal?

Has the hon. member for Illovo (Mr. Marwick) ever been to India?

Yes, I have been there. I want to refer to one of the points which the hon. the Minister of the Interior made. He said, first of all, if an Indian owned his premises, he would not lose his licence, and, secondly, if an Indian had a lease, he could not be deprived of his licence during the holding of that lease. But supposing he loses his lease, what is going to happen then? If these Indians in West Street or Grey Street or Ladysmith, who have large businesses, lose their leases, what is going to become of them? What if their leases run out?

They have to risk that anyhow.

These people have built up their businesses.

. On a monthly lease?

They have a vested interest, and because their lease has run out these people are to lose all they have made.

If the landlord will not renew, they have that risk now.

Well, the landlord will have to be a very brave man if he can stand in the face of this Bill. He will be a very brave man if he gives a lease to an Indian in Natal to-day. Now, I want to refer to the breach of faith: which the Government has committed in connection with the Ghandi agreement, and I would like the hon. the Minister to think over again the letter which he said only referred to the Transvaal merchant that this agreement would hold good. These traders in the Transvaal were trading against the law. They had no right to trade, but they were trading against the law. They had a vested interest, and Mr. Ghandi thought that it would be a very unfair thing if these people who had been trading for years should lose their vested interests. And, consequently, the agreement was made. Why was not that agreement made for Natal? Because they were acting legally. They were legally and lawfully carrying on their businesses in Natal, and Mr. Ghandi thought that no restrictions would be imposed, and that no agreement with regard to them was necessary. Well, Mr. Speaker, I know that I do not look upon this question in the same light, and in the same way as other members on this side of the House.

No, the hon. member does not.

The hon. member for Woodstock (Mr. Purcell) twitted me this afternoon on my attitude. He knows very well that long before I took any part in this matter I held the same views. He also knows very well that the Indian community have always opposed me politically. He also knows that the Indian vote has been captured by the South African Party political machine. At one of the first meetings of the Indians in Cape Town to consider this Bill, the South African Party agent was there taking a hand in the business. What does the hon. member for Bezuidenhout (Mr. Blackwell) think of that? He would deport these people if he could, and so would the hon. member for Krugersdorp (Sir Abe Bailey), but there is a different feeling here; so long as they can get the votes of these people, then the South African Party is willing to enter into any negotiations with them. One of the statements which the hon. the Minister of the Interior made is this : That the Indian community cannot assimilate itself with the rest of the population of South Africa. That I challenge. Why cannot they? I shall tell you, because you do not allow them to. You take this man, you keep him under depraved conditions, you restrict him in every possible way, you put every obstacle in his way, you keep him in prison and away from the light, and then you say : “Why do you not come into the light?”

That is not so.

It is so.

Give us instances.

The whole atmosphere of South Africa is against the Indian, and he is made to feel as uncomfortable as possible in this country. What encouragement is there for the Indian to spend his money in South Africa— and then you blame him for sending his money out of the country. The sword of Damocles is hanging over his head all the time. You do not deal with him in the way you deal with the ordinary citizens of the country, and you are not prepared to give him any of the privileges which are enjoyed and coveted by you ordinary citizens.

Give us an instance.

What the hon. member for Krugersdorp (Sir Abe Bailey) and the hon. member for Bezuidenhout (Mr. Blackwell) have said, is enough to make the Indians feel that they are one the edge of a volcano, and they do not know when the hour may come when some drastic measure may be taken against them. As I have said before, my attitude differs from that of other members on this side. My attitude is guided by principles of ethics, justice, and morality, and to me the preservation of these principles is as important as the preservation of any race, whether it be European or Asiatic. If any race is not content to be imbued with ideals of that kind, then that race is not worthy to live. Is the European civilization so very weak that it cannot stand the impact and the contact with a few thousands of Asiatics? Surely our European civilization is more virile than that, and if we only have courage and think well of these people, I think a great deal of the disagreement which exists between us and them will disappear. There is no other way of looking at this. I am tired of this eternal strife, of this eternal bickering and the world is tired of it too. We long for a period of universal peace. That universal peace can only be founded on ideals of common brotherhood, and if we keep these ideals in our mind, then, and then only, can we have a foundation for that common brotherhood. I would sacrifice a great deal for that. Every day in this House we hear principles brought forward. Every day in this House we start with prayer and we end with the words “for Christ’s sake I wish that in the preamble of this Bill and of similar Bills, some of His precepts could be put in to guide us. We may carry this Bill, we may make this Bill into law, but let me say this, that you may save your body, but I do believe that in the carrying of this measure. South Africa will lose its soul.

I agree with previous speakers who say that we must not make this matter a party question, and that it is our duty as representatives of the people to state clearly what the people think. And I here to-night stand as a Natalian, born in Natal, a man who has lived there all his life, and I shall endeavour to interpret the feeling of the people of Natal correctly. I have seen myself how the Europeans in Natal have been ousted, as far as trade is concerned, in the towns and in the country—I have seen the European ousted as far as the artisan class is concerned, and I see that he is being ousted even as far as landowning is concerned, and when I have seen all these things, I realize, and the Natalians realize that this is a question of self-preservation, and it is a question on which something definite must be done. I am not satisfied with the Bill that has been introduced by the hon. the Minister, but I think the principle which is involved is the correct principle and, for that reason, I shall support the second reading of the Bill, though I trust that in Committee it will be considerably tightened up. It is not fair for members of the House to say that Natal is responsible for having introduced the Indians into South Africa, and that Natal must be satisfied with the position which she occupies to-day in that respect. At the time when Indians were introduced into Natal that Colony did not have self-government. The first introduction was somewhere back in the sixties, and responsible Government was only granted in 1893. Even before this voice had been raised in Natal against the increasing importation of Indians into Natal, and as far back as 1885 there was a petition by the Pietermaritzburg Chamber of Commerce, praying for relief in connection with the matter, and amongst other things the petition prayed that legislation may be introduced prohibiting Arabs or Asiatics living or trading in any part of the town, except in such quarters as may be set apart by the corporation or local authorities for that purpose; so that the present Bill is merely carrying out what was the feeling of the Pietermaritzburg Chamber of Commerce as far back as 1885, and we find that in 1891 Mr. Escombe warned the people against the continual introduction of Indians into Natal. In 1897 the people of Durban forcibly prevented the landing of certain Indians who were coming into Natal, and that was followed by legislation. In 1908 legislation passed through the Natal Parliament to this effect. It is referred to on page 15 of the Commission’s Report, paragraph 168. It states there—

1. (a) After the 31st day of December, 1918 (that is ten years after the passing of the Act), no licence shall be issued or transferred to or be capable of being held by or on behalf of an Asiatic.
2. (b) An Asiatic who on the 31st day of December, 1918, holds a licence and who is by this Act prevented from obtaining a renewal thereof, shall be entitled to be compensated from the public revenue of the Colony for the loss resulting from the discontinuance of the licence, in manner and subject to the provisions of this Act.

The Imperial Government, however, refused their assent to these Acts. I may say that if the Imperial Government had not refused their assent to these Acts we, in Natal, would in any case have been further along the road in this connection than we are at the present day. In the meantime Union came about, and we all know the trouble the Union Government passed through in the early days of Union in regard to Asiatics. I have said that I do not wish to make this a party question, otherwise I would be prepared severely to criticize the action of the present Government with regard to this question, right from the commencement of Union. I think that the legislation which was passed by the Natal Government in 1908, represented at that time the feeling of the bulk of the population of Natal, and I think it represents the feeling of the bulk of the population of Natal to-day, so far as the trading is concerned. But I go further and say this, that as far as the holding of land is concerned the bulk of the people of Natal also have a definite feeling with regard to that, and I wish to refer to paragraph 153 of the report of the Asiatic Commission on page 41 which deals with this question. They say—

1. (a) While recognizing that the existing tenure of land by Asiatics should not be interfered with, no further acquisition of land by purchase, lease or other means by Asiatics shall be allowed.
2. (b) No new licences shall under any circumstances be issued to Asiatics.
3. (c) No transfer of any existing licences to any Asiatics shall be permitted, but at the expiry of any licence held by an Asiatic by death of holder, reasonable compensation for land and trading stock shall be paid.
4. (d) That the Government shall legislate on most drastic lines against the holding by any European or other person of a licence on behalf of any Asiatic.
5. (e) At such future date as shall be fixed by legislation, all Asiatic licences now held by companies shall expire and compensation shall be paid to such holder.
6. (f) The urgency of this matter calls for immediate settlement by legislation.

And the Commission, in the course of its remarks, says this—

I think I am right in saying that these resolutions that are stated there represent really what the feeling of the bulk of the people of Natal is in connection with this question. It may be said that these resolutions contemplated something that is unfair. Let me say this, that the position in the Free State is either sound or not sound. If it is not sound, it should be made an end of; if it is sound, I do not see any objection whatever why other parts of the Union should not conform to it. At the same time in this Bill there should be some provision with regard to the acquisition of land by Asiatics, and I trust that something in that way will be brought into the Bill at Committee stage. I agree with the hon. member for Bezuidenhout (Mr. Blackwell), who said this afternoon that he could not agree with the hon. member for Krugersdorp (Sir Abe Bailey) in connection with the repatriation of Asiatics. I do not see how that could be done. But I do not see why we in South Africa, who are the torch-bearers, as the hon. member for Illovo (Mr. Marwick) has said, of the western civilization should not take every possible step in order to safeguard the future of that civilization in South Africa. If there is a clash between east and west in South Africa then we who represent the western civilization, should take every possible step in the direction of safeguarding the future; and I consider that in that respect the Bill does not go far enough, as I have indicated. I think also that the facilities for voluntary repatriation should be increased. I think it would pay South Africa if the amount which has been spent in that direction were very much increased. The amount that is paid to the Indians who want to go back should be increased, and further facilities should be given them to do so. That must not, however, keep us back from legislating in the direction of endeavouring to secure to the European civilization in South Africa that it shall be permanent here, as far as can be. When we look into the future we see there is a long uphill road, and if We do not do everything in our power to secure to ourselves the right of a European civilization, we cannot but tremble for the future. One does not want to go into the question of the merits of the two civilizations: one does not wish to go into the question as to whether the Asiatics have a better civilization than ours; and I do not wish to make any accusation against the Indians. To me it is merely a question of self-preservation, and I say we are justified in taking every possible step to preserve the European civilization in South Africa, and because I consider that something can be done under this Bill in that direction, I shall support the second reading. There are many defects in this Bill. For instance, in the Transvaal where the ownership of property is not allowed by Asiatics, there you are going to make it possible for them to own property.

No, no, it is allowed inside their own areas.

They are not allowed that at present. That is what I mean; inside their areas you are practically going to entrench them.

That is so now.

And as far as the effect of the Bill is concerned one does not see how that is going very materially to affect the position unless there are alterations made, because you simply make final practically, the position as it is at the time of the passing of the Bill or when the Bill comes into force and proclamation is issued, for any particular town that it shall have a class area, and I see very serious difficulties also in the application of the Bill if it becomes law in the smaller towns. It has already been pointed out by one of the hon. members over there that in the smaller towns, if you have a class area, it will make very little difference, as most of the businesses in the small towns are already in the hands of Asiatics. Now I do not wish to say anything further on the matter, but I have felt this, that it is right I should say that the people in Natal want something more than what is included in this Bill, and I trust that in Committee, amendments will be made that will meet them in their desires in that direction.

Na my beskouing kan die blanke bevolking vandag van geluk spreek, dat hy in die posiesie is om een van die neteligste kwessies in die Unie van Suid-Afrika aan te pak, naamlik, om Suid-Afrika ’n witmansland te laat bly en hierdie wetgewing is nou ’n stap in die regte rigting. Daarom gaat ek my ondersteuning aan die Wet gee. Suid-Afrika is na my beskouing ’n land waar die blanke bevolking voor eeue terug ingekom het en wat hulle met die grootste opofferings gemaak het tot wat dit vandag is. Ek sien nie hoe ons die blanke bevolking van Suid-Afrika kan handhaaf en die land ’n blanke land laat bly, indien ons toelaat dat rasse, soos b.v. die Asiate, kan inkom. Die Asiaat het in Suid-Afrika gekom, hy kry eiendomsregte en later sal hy natuurlik hoe langer hoe meer aanspraak maak op andere regte. As ons die land ’n witmansland wil maak en laat bly vir ons kinders en toekomstige geslagte, dan sê ek is dit nou onse plig om kwessies van die aard aan te pak en probeer om ’n begin te maak om die op te los. Hierdie wetgewing maak ’n begin in die rigting, deur klasse-wyke daar te stel vir besigheid en vir inwoning, maar ek hoop ons sal dit nie daarby laat bly nie, want ons moet verder gaan as ons in Suid-Afrika ’n groot volk wil ontwikkel en ’n grote blanke bevolking opbou. Ons moet dan bedink, dat ons in Suid-Afrika genoeg kleurlinge vandag het en dat dit nie moontlik is om aan andere rasse toe te laat om ook hier te kom neersit en ontwikkel en ’n groot deel van de volk te word nie. As ons dit toelaat, wat gaat dan word van die toekoms van die blanke bevolking in Suid-Afrika? Daarom sê ek, ons moet die kwessie met beleid en met verstand aanpak, sonder enige gevoel van bitterheid, sonder voornemens om ’n onbillikheid of onregverdigheid teenoor die Asiaat te wil doen, maar ons moet hulle ook laat verstaan, dat ons Suid-Afrika beskou as ’n blankemans-land en dat ons dit wil opbou tot ’n land met ’n grote en sterke blanke bevolking, wat naderhand in die loop van tyd so groot en sterk sal word, dat dit getel kan word in die ry van alle volkere. As ons nou nie begin met die kwessie van die Asiate aan te pak nie, dan sê ek, dat dit hopeloos sal wees om nog die spreuk te gebruik: “Suid-Afrika gaat ’n blankemans-land wees in die toekoms,” want as jy rondgaan in die Transvaal, dan sien jy nie alleen in die groot stede, soos Johannesburg, maar veral ook in die dorpe en op die platteland, dat die blanke man heeltemal uit die besigheid gedruk is. Neem b.v. my distrik, Rustenburg, en ook Ventersdorp, jy vind dat ooral die blanke man die besigheid verloor het. Ek sê, as ons nou nie die begin gaan maak nie om segregaisie daar toe te pas wat betref die Asiate, dan sê ek, wat gaat word van ons toekomstige geslag, wat gaat word van die seuns en dogters van die Urne van Suid-Afrika? Dis hopeloos om te dink, dat ons dan ’n groot blankvolk in die Unie van Suid-Afrika sail ontwikkel, want die besigheid vandag in die dorpe is byna almal deur die Asiate in besit geneem en geen blankeman, sal hom verlaag om daar te gaan klerk word nie en die geld wat gemaak word in die Unie van Suid-Afrika word uitgevoer na Indië. Dit is dus hoog tyd vir ons om ’n begin te maak om langs die weg van billikheid en eerlikheid en regverdigheid tot ’n oplossng te kom, want wat sê die ou-Boek: “Regt en geregtigheid verhoogt ’n volk.” Ek wil nie ons moet onreg die Asiate aandoen nie, maar ons moet duidelik maak, dat ons probeer in die eerste plaas om die blanke bevolking van Suid-Afrika te handhaaf en te probeer om Suid-Afrika ’n blankemans-land te laat bly. Toe onse voorouers ingekom het, toe het hulle die land opgebou, ontwikkel en hulle het die barbaarse land met opoffering van bloed en goed bewoonbaar gemaak vir hulle nakomelinge en ons as nakomelinge het die reg om kwessies van die aard op te los. In die verlede was ons ongelukkig nie in staat om dit te doen nie, want ons was gebind aan traktate en konvensies, maar vandag is ons nie belet om ons plig na te kom nie, ons kan ’n kwessie van die aard vandag na die begeerte van die blanke bevolking van die Unie aanpak en oplos. Ons kan nie langer die ding maar laat gaan nie. Hoe langer dit duur voordat ons met die oplossing begin, hoe moeiliker sal dit word vir ons kinders om die kwessies op te los. Daarom sê ek, ek juig van harte toe dat hierdie beginstap geneem is in die regte rigting, maar ek beskou dit as ’n tydelike maatreël wat ons by die hand neem, want ons moet die Asiate in die land eerlik en billik behandel, maar ook vir hulle reguit vertel wat ons bedoeling is, dat die bedoeling is dat ons nie kan toelaat dat hulle ’n groot bevolking in Suid-Afrika kan word nie. Die dag moet nog kom— ons moet nie onbillik en onregverdig wees nie— maar die dag moet nog kom, dat ons sal sê soos die ou grootvoormoeder, die ou Sara, gesê het toe sy Ismael uitgedrywe het, omdat hy nie saam met Isaak kon erwe nie. Ek sê dit moet nog eendag die beginsel wees in Suid-Afrika.

Wie was die Asiate in die tyd in Suid-Afrika?

Ons kan nie toelaat nie, dat die Asiate erfgenaam word in Suid-Afrika nie, dat hulle dieselfde regte gaan kry as die blanke bevolking wat Suid-Afrika groot gemaak het nie. Hulle het Indië, ’n groot land, daar is hulle vry, maar Suid-Afrika behoor aan die Suid-Afrikaners en Suid-Afrika wil ons behou vir die blanke bevolking. Suid-Afrika moet ’n blankmansland bly, en as ons die Asiate toe laat om sterk en groot te word—hulle is ’n ou volk en ons is nog in wording—dan sal dit gaan soos met ’n groot stroom, ’n groot rivier, waar jy ’n klein voortjie in gekeer het en die groot stroom sal die klein voortjie heeltemal opneem.

Soos met die sewe vette en die sewe maëre koeie.

Hoe langer ons wag, hoe meer eiendom sal hulle besit. Hoe langer die Asiate hier bly hoe groter en sterker sal hulle word en hulle sal meer en meer aanspraak maak op alle regte en vryhede van die blanke bevolking in Suid-Afrika. En wat gaan dan van ons blanke bevolking in Suid-Afrika word? Ons moet goed die groot gevaar sien. Ons wil nie Indië inneem nie, maar ons wil ook nie hê dat die Asiate Suid-Afrika gaan inneem nie. Suid-Afrika is ons land. Ons voorouers het hier in Suid-Afrika gekom en Suid-Afrika gemaak tot wat dit vandag is en ons wil Suid-Afrika vir ons nakomelinge bewaar. Al die werk en besigheid het ons nodig vir ons seuns en dogters. Daar is reeds so veel armblanke in die Unie van Suid-Afrika en ons kan nie toelaat dat andere rasse daar in kom. Suid-Afrika is nie ’n groot land nie en as ons toelaat dat die rasse inkom dan sal Suid-Afrika in ’n paar honderd jaar so dik bevolk wees dat dit onmoontlik sal wees om plek en woninge te vind vir die blanke bevolking van Suid-Afrika. Ons kan nie toelaat dat ’n groot Asiate bevolking hom in Suid-Afrika ontwikkel nie. Ons het reeds ’n groot naturelle bevolking en ’n grote kleurlinge bevolking, wat hier in Suid-Afrika gehore en groot geword is. Hulle sal met ons hier bly woon, maar ons kan nie toelaat dat Asiate inkom. Dan sal die toestand hopeloos vir ons word, dis so duidelik as die dag. Nou sê ek dat hierdie Wetsontwerp om klassewyke in te stel waar hulle kan besigheid dryf en woon, is ’n stap in die goeie rigting, maar daar moet ons dit nie laat bly nie. Ons moet nie onregverdig en onbillik wees nie, maar die dag moet kom dat ons geld vat en die Asiate uitkoop en repatrieer. Daar is al Asiate, wat gebore is in Suid-Afrika en met hulle is dit ’n andere kwessie, maar die is nog ’n klein minderheid en die is nie so’n groot gevaar nie. Die wat hier gebore is, kan ons hier laat bly, maar die wat ingevoer is, nie. Hulle het gekom as arbeiders en besit nou eiendoms regte en ons moet een dag ’n kommissie aanstel, ’n kommissie van hulle self en van die blanke bevolking en die behoor hulle eiendomme te waardeer en die Staat moet hulle uitkoop. En as hulle die geld gekry het, dan moet hulle na Indië gaan en daar bly.

En as hulle nie wil gaan nie?

Ons maak hier ’n begin en ons moet nie begin met lapwerk nie. Ons kan nie toelaat dat die Asiate ’n groot nasie in Suid-Afrika word nie. Laat ons eerlik en reguit sê wat ons bedoeling is, en ek sê ek spreek as my opienie uit dat ons alleen Suid-Afrika vir ons nakomelinge kan bewaar as ons Suid-Afrika die blanke man se land laat bly. en dit kan ons nooit doen so lank ons Asiate in Suid-Afrika toelaat nie, want hulle vermeerder baie vinnig. Daarom sê ek die Wetsontwerp is ’n stap in die regte rigting, maar ons moet die kwessie in sy geheel aanpak, met verstand en beleid, sonder om onreg te doen aan enige nasie. Ons moet egter beslist optree en nie laat staan vir die nageslag nie, want hoe langer, hoe swaarder sal die oplossing word.

Het edele lid voor Ventersdorp zegt dat wij nu zullen beginnen met de oplossing van het aziatiese vraagstuk, doch wij zijn daar bereids al een veertig-tal jaren mee bezig. De hele aziatiese kwestie draait om de Wet uit de oude republikeinse dagen. In 1885 werd de eerste Wet daaromtrent gemaakt. In 1881 waren er nog geen Aziaten in de Transvaal. Waar evenwel de zaak, wat Natal betreft, zo duidelik en op bekwame wijze uiteengezet is door het edele lid voor Vryheid (de hr. Jansen) zal ik mij bepalen tot de geschiedenis van de Indiërs in de Transvaal. Ze zijn ingekomen sedert 1881 volgens de getuigenis afgelegd voor ’n Kommissie, waarvan ik het rapport hier voor mij heb. In 1883-’4 was de bedreiging reeds zo groot, dat deputaties naar de Volksraad kwamen om representaties te maken ter verkrijging van wetgeving en in 1885 werd een Wet gepasseerd, gebaseerd op de Grondwet van de Zuidafrikaanse Republiek. Daarin werd bepaald dat geen burgerrecht aan hen gegeven zou worden, dat zij geen grondeigenaars zouden kunnen worden; dat zij moesten geregistreerd worden en wonen in de straten, wijken en lokaties, voor hen opzij gezet. De Wet was goed genoeg, maar het grote struikelblok was de Konventie van 1884, een nalatenschap van de Britse okkupatie van 1877-81. Daarin werd bepaald, dat de Republiek iedereen zou toelaten vrij te wonen en handel te drijven, behalve de naturellen. Dus voordat de Wet van 1885 geproklameerd kon worden, moest worden onderzocht of de Engelse Regering er niets tegen had, doch de republikeinse Regering zag kans om, met ’n amendement, de Wet in 1886 door te zetten. Aan de andere kant echter was er altoos de invloed van de Engelse Regering, soms openlik en soms in het verborgen, waardoor de Indiërs voortdurend gesteund werden in hun verzet. Sedert 1885 was deze kwestie niets anders dan een voortdurend worstelen tussen de Regering en de Indiëse gemeenschap. Iedereen kan dat lezen in het rapport van 1921. Ik heb reeds gezegd, hoe er verschillende wetten werden gemaakt; die van 1885 gaf aanleiding tot verdere wetten en Volksraadsbesluiten in 1893, 1895, 1898 en 1899. De Wet gaf aanleiding tot vele hofzaken en in de meeste gevallen werden de Indiërs in het gelijk gesteld; de Wet werd niet behoorlik uitgevoerd en de uitspraken van het Hof stonden trouwens deze uitvoering in de weg. Zo ging het voort, totdat de oorlog van 1899 uitbrak, en de vrede van 1902 gesloten werd. De oude bevolking was toenmaals zo ontmoedigd, dat iedereen naar zijn plaats ging om weer te trachten een bestaan te maken, en stoorde zich niet aan de Indiërs. Dezelfde personen die ons voordien steeds in de weg hadden gestaan, namen toen het voortouw. In 1904 werd een konventie gehouden onder voorzitterschap van de heer Love-day en werd besloten de Regeing te vragen dezelfde stappen in verband met de Indiërs te nemen, welke de Republiek in 1885 had trachten te nemen. Dit werd gedaan en het moet worden erkend, dat de Goeverneur-generaal zeer simpatiek optrad en ’n goed begrip had van de kwestie van de Indiërs in Transvaal. Hij deed bij de Rijksregering aanbevelingen voor ’n gunstige oplossing, doch de Rijksregering beschermde z’n onderdanen van indiese oorsprong. Door de Eerste Wetgevende Raad werd dadelik een Wet gepasseerd van dezelfde strekking als die van 1885. Er werd van de kant van de Rijksregering gedraald en eindelik gezegd, dat het gedwongen wonen in lokaties goed was, doch de handel moest overal vrij zijn en zij moeten het recht hebben om handel te drijven, waar zij hun bezigheden reeds hadden of wilden vestigen. Toetszaken kwamen voor het Hooggerechtshof, voor de magistraat en in het Hof van Appèl, en tengevolge van die uitspraken werd de toestand zeer onzeker; in enkele gevallen de ene keer was het ten gunste van de overheid, maar meestal kregen de Indiërs gelijk, met het resultaat dat de Wet van 1903 niet kon worden toegepast. De zaak bleef slepende totdat de Transvaal verantwoordelijke regering kreeg en in 1907 een Wet passeerde in de geest van die van 1885, doch bij de uitvoering stuitte men op de uitspraken van het hof en zo is aangesukkeld tot vandaag en staan we op hetzelfde standpunt als de Republiek en hadden wij hetzelfde gesukkel als President Kruger. Als ik de toespraak van de edelachtbare de Minister van gisteravond lees, zou ik bijna zeggen, dat wij nog een stap achteruitgegaan zijn sedert die dagen. De Wet van 1885 was beter en stipter en beter uit het oogpunt van de blanken; de edelachtbare de Minister zelf heeft goed laten uitkomen, dat deze Wet gunstiger is voor de Indiër dan de Wet van de Republiek. Met de Wet van 1908 was de moeilikheid ook de toepassing en zo is het gegaan tot 1913, toen de Immigratiewet werd aangenomen. Op het ogenblik staan wij werkelik aan het begin van een veldtocht evenals in 1885. Is de algemene posisie nog dezelfde? Volstrekt niet. De moeilikheden, die overwonnen moeten worden, zijn vijftigmaal zo groot. Was er toenmaals toch maar uitvoering aan de Wetten van 1903 of 1907 gegeven; maar dat voortdurend uitstellen of dat verhinderen van de uitvoering is oorzaak, dat wij vandaag voor een probleem staan, veel ingewikkelder en ernstiger, dan een dertig, veertig jaar geleden. Iedereen, die onze steden kent van 20, 30 jaar geleden, zal zien welk een enorme verandering er is gekomen. Als men vandaag in een van onze lieve oude dorpen komt, krijgt men de indruk van in een van de Portugese nederzettingen aan de oostkust van Afrika te zijn beland; in sommige straten behoren alle winkels aan Indiërs. Tussen de winkels en huizen van de blanken staan hun kleine winkels en overal komt men hen tegen. Men krijgt de indruk van in Delagoabaai, Inhambane of Beira terecht te zijn gekomen en in de distrikten is het niet veel beter; in sommige minder in andere meer, overal zijn kleine winkels van Indiërs. Er is veel aangehaald van de moeilikheid in het algemeen door het toelaten van vreemde rassen tussen ons. Maar tans wordt vóór alles, bescherming van de handelaar bedoeld; en waarom zouden zij geen recht op bescherming hebben? Dat geeft men overal en zelfs onze naturellen worden beschermd door een verbod op de invoering van naturellen uit het Portugees gebied. Waarom niet de handelaar dan ook beschermd tegen een kompetitie, die ik zal niet zeggen oneerlik, maar toch onredelijk en onbillijk is. Als men het rapport nagaat, vindt men de beschrijving van grieven tegen de indiese bevolking. Ik vind op bladzijde 30 niet minder dan 18 beschuldigingen. Er zijn enkele bij, waarmee ik niet saamga, want die zijn m.i. ongegrond, maar er blijven er genoeg over om overtuigd te worden, dat het beter zou zijn, indien er een einde gemaakt werd aan de onbillike kompetisie en de ongezonde toestand. Wat was het gevolg van de tegenslagen, welke de verschillende Regeringen hebben ondervonden? Dat de bewoners van sommige dorpen zelf stappen hebben genomen om een einde te maken aan de dreigende toestand. In 1919 werd een Anti-Indiër liga gevormd, welke tans geworden is de Bond van Zuid-Afrikaners. Beloften werden afgelegd om niet meer van Indiërs te kopen. Ik heb altoos volgehouden, dat dit wel voor enige tijd zou helpen, maar het was niet de rechte oplossing: die moet gezocht worden in wetgeving en daarom ben ik bly dat de Regering dit Wetsontwerp heeft ingediend en besloot voort te gaan met de beweging, welke reeds veertig jaar geleden werd aangevangen. Uit al de moeilikheden is het duidelik, dat wij de indiese gemeenschap niet moeten onderschatten, evenmin als de tegenstand, welke zij zullen bieden aan deze Wet. Zij zijn goed georganiseerd, beschikken over veel geld en zijn vast besloten om hun belangen voet voor voet te verdedigen. Ik denk, dat de Wet in dit opzicht verbeterd kan worden en ik vertrouw, dat enige wijzigingen zullen worden aangebracht. De vraag is of onze kansen groter en beter zijn dan vroeger en ik denk van ja. Zoals ik zoeven heb aangetoond, was er altoos een uit het noorden, tegen ons dreigend opgeheven vinger, met de waarschuwing: “Raak myn onderdanen niet aan” en meermalen moesten onze Regeringen zwichten. Op het ogenblik behoeft daarvoor niet gevreesd te worden; de betere positie waarin wij tegenover het Rijk staan is oorzaak, dat wij niet behoeven te vrezen van die kant grote tegenstand te ondervinden; maar er is een andere dreigende vinger, tans uit het oosten, tegen ons opgeheven, en de waarschuwing komt tot ons: “Raak mijn kinderen niet aan.” Wanneer die stem tot ons komt, vragen wij ons af, of ook wij niet geroepen zijn om in de eerste plaats onze eigen kinderen te beschermen. Terwijl het hele volk het in deze zaak met de Regering eens is, moeten wij deze keer de Wet doorzetten. Ik zal de tweede lezing ondersteunen.

Die Wet voor ons betref een van die grootste kwessies in ons land en dit is een van selfbehoud vir die blanke bevolking van Suid-Afrika. Sprekers het die geskiedenis van die Indiërs vroeger in Transvaal en Vrystaat aangehaal. Ek steun die Wet, omdat dit ’n beginsel is in die rigting van segregasie, waarvoor ek altoos gepleit het en ek glo nie een enkele edele lid kan huiwer om daarvoor te stem nie om die Asiate af te sonder. Daar is ’n Wet deur die Huis aangeneem om die naturel af te sonder in lokasies en as ons hom, wat ’n inboorling van die land is en die oorspronkelike eigenaar van die land, so behandel waarom nie die Asiaat ook nie, wat van elders hierheen gekom het? En daar is onder die naturelle wat ruim so ontwikkeld en beskaafd is as sekere Indiërs. Daar is in verband met hierdie kwessie twee grote bedreigings vir die volk van Suid-Afrika; ten eerste die van die handel; die Asiaat verdryf die blanke handelaar totaal, en die tweede is die saamwoon, dit voel die blanke sterk. Hierdie Wet behoor geen partykwessie gemaak te word nie, want die hele blanke bevolking het daar belang by; laat die kwesise op ’n regvaardige wyse opgelos word. Die edele lid vir Lydenburg ( de hr. Nieuwenhuize) het die geskiedenis van die kwessie uit die dae van die Republiek nagegaan, maar ’n mens moet na die Rand toe kom. Daar was vir hulle ’n basaar angewys, waar hulle moes woon, wat altoos bekend was as die koelielokasie; dit was naby Braamfontein stasie en aan die oorsy was een plek afgemeet vir die Slamaaiers om in te woon. Na die oorlog is daar pes uitgebreek in die indiese kamp, die is afgekamp vir ’n maand of enige weke en nadat de Indiërs daar uitgeneem was, is die boel aan die brand gesteek. Toe is die Asiate versprei oor die hele stad. Net waar hy ’n huis, kamer of agterplaas kon in die hande kry, het hy dit gehuur tussen die blanke in. Maar dit was destyds nie so erg as vandag nie. My kiesafdeling sluit in Newtown, die vroegere Burgersdorp. Hulle is daar weggeneem, maar het in Newtown, naby die mark ’n stuk grond in die hande gekry en vandag staat hulle kerk en skole daar nog. Daar het hulle wonings, en winkels opgeset. Een deel van Newtown behoort aan Burgersdorp. In Burgersdorp mag Indiërs geen grond besit nie, maar in Newtown is dit anders en daar woon hulle tusse die witmense; die Asiate leef goedkoper, op ’n verskillende manier en dit is gans onnatuurlik, dat die twee saam sal kan woon in een dorp. Hulle beskawing, waar die bestaat, verskil helemaal van die westerse. Hier is aangehaal, dat in Natal 150,000 van hulle is en in Transvaal goed 15,000 en ons moet nie vergeet nie, dat ons teenoor die anderhalf miljoen blanke ook nog die naturellebevolking het van ’n goeie ses miljoen. En die blanke bevolking kan nie toelaat, dat ’n ander vreemde nasie sig ook nog hier vestig en ontwikkel nie. My sienswyse is, dat ons die koelie moet repatrieer; daar is wat hier gebore is en ek sien nie, hoe ons die klas kan repatrieer nie. Maar skei hulle in elk geval af van die blanke bevolking. Dis niks meer as regverdig teenoor hulle nie. Hulle wil ontwikkel op hulle eie manier en die blanke man wil ontwikkel op sy eie, en dit is onmoontlik dat die twee nasies in een dorp saam lewe nie. Die toestand in die Transvaal het in die laaste jare baie ernstig geword, nie alleen in die groot stede, maar ook in die dorpe, op die platteland. As jy in die buitedistrikte kom in klein dorpie, dan sien jy dat byna al die handel ingeneem is deur koelies. Oorals het jy koeliewinkels. Elkeen sal met my eens wees, dat die blanke man nooit kan kompeteer met die Indiër of Asiaat nie. Die lewensstandaard van die blanke man is baie duurder as van die Asiaat. Oorals sien ons dat die blanke man uit sy besigheid gedruk word en dat sy plek langsamerhand ingeneem word deur die Indiër. Die Huis is geroepe om die blanke beskawing te beskerm. Seker, die Wet beteken bale min, en bring ons nie verder nie. As ek die Wet of die edelagbare die Minister goed verstaan, dan bly die koelies waar hulle vandag woon of eiendom het in dorpe. Die bly net so, maar vir ’n ander gedeelte kan in die toekoms plekke aangewys word. As ek die Wet goed verstaan maak die Wet in die teenwoordige toestand geen verandering nie. Waar die Indiër ’n besigheid het, kan hy bly en sy besigheid dryf. Hy kan ’n liksensie kry en bly woon en die liksensie kan ook weer vernuut word. Dis nie wat die bevolking wil hê nie. Die bevolking wil hê, dat die Asiaat afgesonder sal word en waar dit moontlik is gerepatrieer moet word na sy eie land toe. Ons voorouers het die beskawing al die jare vir ons bewaar, vir die blanke bevolking van Suid-Afrika. Ek sê nie dat daar onreg gedoen moet word nie, maar die blanke bevolking moet beskerm word teen enige prys. Dis nie die land van die Indiër nie. Dis die land van die blanke man en die inboorling wat hier getbore is. Ek sê ons kan nie toelaat dat in Suid-Afrika andere gekleurde nasies inkom. Ons het genoeg gekleurdes in Suid-Afrika. Ons het ’n groot naturelle bevolking en ons kan nie die deur oopsit vir andere gekleurde rasse nie, en as ons die 255,000 Asiate hier hou en hulle laat ontwikkel, dan sal ons in ’n dertig jaar klaar wees as blank Suid-Afrika.

Ek staan alleen op om my ondersteuning aan die Wet te gee, en doen sulks omdat ek uit verskillende dele van my distrik briewe en telegramme gekry het van my kiesers om my ondersteuning te gee aan die Wet wat die edelagbare die Minister ingedien het. Ek wil net alleen my ondersteuning aan die Wet gee, maar een opmerking maak en dit is dat die Wet soos ek die verstaan geen verandering gaan maak in die teenwoordige toestande. Die liksensies en besighede van Indiërs wat daar vandag in die verskillende dorpe bestaan sal bly bestaan, en hulle kan selfs weer vernuwing kry van die liksensies en as dit die geval is dan sal die Wet ons nie baie ver bring nie. As ons so ver gekom het dat daar ’n kommissie aangestel is om sekere dele of strate aan te wys waar die Indiërs moet woon, dan moet ons ook so ver gaan om die liksensies te laat transporteer na die dele waar die mense woon en hulle moet daar handel drywe. Ek wil nie verder praat nie, maar ek hoop dat die edelagbare die Minister op die punt verandering in die voorstel sal aanbring.

Various members have dealt with this question in its various aspects, but I would like to say, on behalf of the Transvaal municipalities, that they welcome this as a step in the right direction, aS they hope that a solution will be found in finding some way out of the difficulties they are in to-day. These bodies have been dealing with this question for a number of years in an endeavour to get the Indian question solved in their towns, and I think they are probably the ones to be entitled to let their opinions be heard. I was rather surprised that the hon. member for Brakpan (Mr. Waterston), who in his speech stated that the municipal authorities in the Transvaal were opposed to this Bill. I have just received a communication, in which they say that they had a meeting of the executive of the above association, held on the 5th of March, at which the Class Areas Bill was considered, and the unanimous opinion expressed that every effort should be made to have the Bill enacted this session. The mayors of all towns in the province are being asked to urge their members of Parliament to bring pressure to bear on the Government to get the Bill through this session. Peculiarly enough, this letter comes from the office of the municipal association of the Transvaal, which is located in the municipal office at Brakpan. I think the man who signed it is the town clerk of Brakpan, and I was rather surprised at the hon. member for Brakpan (Mr. Waterston) as an ex-town councillor and ex-mayor of Benoni, who knows the difficulties under which the municipalities have been suffering for years, when he said the municipal authorities of the Transvaal are opposed to this Bill. I have also received a wire from the Pretoria Town Council, which I was associated with for nine years, that they unanimously approve of the Bill, and ask me to use my best endeavours to see that the Bill is passed this session. That municipality is composed of three members of the Labour Party, seven South African Party members and five members of the Nationalist Party. Without exception they are all in favour of this Bill being passed, The municipal association have suggested that several amendments be added to this Bill with regard to leases, and they suggest that a date should be inserted into the Bill, because it is quite possible that the carrying into effect of the provisions of this Bill might be delayed owing to proclamation and other causes, therefore they suggest a retrospective date be inserted into the Bill. There is one other point. Our experience in the Transvaal, and Pretoria especially, has been that we have been working under the old 1885 Act of the Volksraad, but under that Act there seems to be no penalty, if aliens refuse to carry out the provisions of the Act, and I hope that under this Bill the provision will be made that if the Indians refuse to live in a location, power will be given for the municipalities to deal with this matter. I would like to draw the attention of the hon. the Minister to this matter. I would like to say also that this address of Mrs. Naidu’s, in which she addressed the Indians of Mombasa, and told them of their shortcomings, has been known to every municipality in the Transvaal for a number of years. Every endeavour we have made to get these people to conform to a European standard of civilization, has not only met with resistance, but they have set up open defiance. They have endeavoured on every occasion to take advantage of a difficult situation. The hon. member for Bezuidenhout (Mr. Blackwell) has mentioned several cases. Might I be allowed to give an instance of what happened at Pretoria some years ago. As is known, the tramways there are reserved for Europeans exclusively, but the Indians tried to assert their rights, and one day took possession of one of the cars. They were charged in the courts, and after giving judgment for the municipality the judge stated that he thought that in the interests of the municipality, cars should be provided to carry coloured persons and Indians. That was done by the municipality, and a tram was provided for these people, and it ran for 7 months, but was boycotted by the Indians. They refused to ride in this car, their object being to assert their own social equality with the Europeans. On behalf of the municipalities I intend to support the Bill, and I hope that the hon. the Minister will accept the amendments they propose to put forward, when the Bill comes to the Committee stage.

Ek sou ontrou wees aan my roeping of aan my kiesers of aan die Transvaal as ek nie my stem sou laat hoor teen die Asiate nie. Toe die edelagbare die Minister die Wet hier ingebring het, het hy ’n toespraak gehou wat maar baie vaag was omtrent die Wet en die groot saak van die Asiate. Ek dink toe hy klaar gepraat was, het die edelagbare die Eerste Minister seker ook by horn gekom en gesê: “My seun Patrick, ek felisiteer jou, omdat jy versigtig en sag gehandel het met die Asiate”. Tog is ek verplig om in beginsel vir die twede lesing te stem want hier word tog ’n begin gemaak om die groot vraagstuk van die koelies op te los. Die samelewing van die koelies onder die witmense het al baie treurige gevolge gehad. Neem b.v. Pretoria, die groot stad, ons mag sê ons hoofstad, daar is die meeste en grootste winkels al in hande van die Asiate. Hulle is gewoon om as het ware te leef Van die reuk van ’n bietjie rys en ’n bietjie kerrie, sodat hulle, baie goedkoper kan lewe en ook as ’t ware hulle produkte goedkoper verkoop as die blanke handelsman. As daar nie stop gesit word aan die handeldrywe van die koelies nie, dan vrees ek nog dat oor ’n jaar of tien het hulle die blanke handelsman, die blanke winkeliers, klaar gemaak. Ek weet in Pretoria woon hulle in die béste gedeeltes daar, huis aan huis met witmense. Nou, dit is ’n baie ongesonde toestand, en ek kan nie sien waarom hulle beswaar wil maak dat hulle aan een kant gesit word nie. In Transvaal het jy die Wet dat die naturelle nie tussen Ons blanke in die dorpe mag woon nie. Waarom kan die Asiate ook nie buitekant, aan één kant gesit word nie? Hulle handel tog die meeste met die naturelle en as hulle afgesonder word naby die groot lokasies, dan kan hulle nie kla dat hulle nie goed behandel is nie, want hulle sal tog nog voldoende goeie besigheid kan doen, waar hulle ’n goeie lewe kan maak. Daar is gesê dat ons in Transvaal skuldig is aan die toestand wat daar vandag heers, maar dis nie so nie. Vóór die oorlog van 1880 toe het daar nie Asiate kan woon en winkels opsit nie, toe was hulle net onder dieselfde Wet as in die Vrystaat, maar wat is die oorsaak van die toestand? Dit is die ondersteuners van die “Empire”. Hulle is die mense wat die Asiate ingebring het; Daar word altyd gesê as ons met ’n groot saak besig is, wat ons moet doen as met een oofboom wat nie goeie vrugte wil dra nie, dan moet die boom met wortel en tak uitgehaal word. So gaat dit ook met betrekking tot die posiesie van die Asiate, So lank ons deel is van die Britse “Empire”, sal ons nooit ontsla raak van die Asiate, want dit gaat met die Britse Regering so, hy kyk nie na kleur of faal nie. As dit sy onderdaan is, dan moet hy gelyke regte hê. So gaat dit vandag met die koelies. Ons sal hom nie aan een kant kan sit nie, ons sal nie die reg daartoe hê nie. Wat die Wet betref, so betwyfel ek nog of die sal uitgevoer word soos die edelagbare die Minister dit voorgestel het, maar daar word tog die eerste stap gedoen, daar word ’n begin gemaak, maar ek hoop ons sal dit nie daarby laat bly nie. Laat ons dit nie ’n partykwessie maak nie. Ek voel dat die blanke bevolking hierin by mekaar moet kom. Daar bestaan nog taamlike verwydering hier tussen ons, maar hierdie kwessie is ’n lewenskwessie vir die blanke bevolking van Suid-Afrika. Laat ons by mekaar staan en nie ’n politieke saak daarvan maak nie. Laat die blanke bevolking van Suid-Afrika die saak saam aanpak en uitvoer. Soos ek sê het die politiek van Milner en Chamberlain in die Transvaal enige rede en plan gesoek om oorlog met ons te maak. Toe dit geopper werd dat daar wetgewing sou kom om die Asiate aan een kant te sit, toe het hulle protesteer en gesê as julle dit doen, dan is dit as ’n verklaring van oorlog aan die “Empire”, want, sê hulle, die Engelse Regering het die soewereiniteit oor die Transvaal. Dit was nie so nie. By die sluiting van die eerste kontrak toe was daar ’n seker soort soewereiniteit, maar in 1884 het die President na Engeland gegaan en die soewereiniteit is weggeneem, en ons het toe vry geword. Die heel moeilikheid is gekom deur die “Empire” politiek en so lank die in die land is sal ons nie vry raak van die moeilike saak nie. Soos ek al gesê het, stem ek vir die twede lesing, maar ek hoop dat in Komitee daar groot veranderinge aangebring sal word, sodat die Wet van meer waarde sal wees vir die blanke handelaars en die blanke bevolking van Suid-Afrika.

Anyone coming into this House who was a stranger to South Africa would never consider that this Parliament was discussing such an important measure as this. It is a fact that it is only those who have lived in Natal for a great many years, realize how great a question this is for South Africa, and it is only those who have seen the Indians grow in numbers, and seen them increasing in wealth, in influence, and in power in Natal, realize what this Bill really means to Natal. I remember when first I came into Natal many years ago, the Indians were comparatively few in number, and they were not considered to be of great moment in the colony, but at that time these Indians were brought over, as has already been said, to assist in a certain class of work in this country. Such, people brought at that time were the poorest of the poor in India. These people were brought here, and although the wages were very small, and their remuneration might be considered to be miserable by us now, it was more than they got in their native land, and they also got more comfort than in India. I have seen the same class of Indian working on the tea gardens in India, and I know that their housing there was bad and their pay very small, but when they came to Natal they were better housed, better treated and better paid than by their own people. When they had an opportunity of going back to India the majority refused to go; which shows that the allegation of the Indian being ill-treated here is not borne out by facts. We are told that the Indians have been treated “like dogs” in this country. I think that was one of the expressions used, but if you look at the condition of these Indians at the present time, you will see them riding about in expensive motor cars, and there is no evidence whatever that they have been ill used. We find in Natal after all these years that the Indian community has grown wealthy and powerful, and in Durban alone they own property to the extent of over £1,000,000, which all goes to show that the Indians, in Natal especially, have no reason to complain of the treatment they have received. They have had every opportunity of making money, and education, mostly free, has been provided for them, and they have been helped to rise in the scale of civilization. The position is this: These people came here as labourers on the fields of Natal, and when their indentures expired they came into the town and got situations, saved money, then they began to own property and to trade. I may say that the whole country trade is now in the hands of these people, and a great part of the town trade as well. If this was the only position it would not be so bad. We find that these people, not satisfied with the wealth and the good times they have, now want to obtain all the privileges and rights of the white people in this country. Not only are they asking this on their own behalf, but they are allying themselves with the political agitations in India, and the people in India are making use of them, possibly for their own designs. Therefore this question has become, not only a Natal question or a South African question, but in a short time it will become an international question, and the time has come when something has to be done in order to protect the people of this country. There is no doubt that the feelings between the Indians and the white people are becoming strained, and that the antipathy between them is each year becoming accentuated. What is to be done? The question has been considered by the people of Natal for many years, and many suggestions have been made, but nothing practical has been done. The Government, some years ago, started a scheme to induce Indians to go back to their own country, and voted a certain amount of money for that purpose. They were to get free passages to India and a sum of money on their arrival there. The plan was carried out so badly that it was a failure. The Indians came to Port Natal with all their belongings and went to the emigration offices, and were then told that the steamer had not come. The people waited about day after day until their money was spent, and then returned to work. If proper steamer accommodation had been provided, many thousands of these Indians would have gone back, and this trouble would not be so acute. I believe that if more inducement was given to these people, a great many would go to India, especially those who have made a certain amount of money in the country. There is only one final solution to the question, and that is to remove the Indians from Natal. I do not care whether the removal is voluntary or otherwise. That is the only way to settle it. Segregation might help, but certainly it will not solve the problem. I am not any more enthusiastic about this Bill than the hon. the Minister is, and I realize that it is an attempt to solve the problem, but it contains too many exemptions and provisos to make it effective. This country is supposed to be a Union, all one country; but here, on a question of this kind, we are all in provinces still. What is the position as regards the Indians? Although we have got Union, the Indians in Natal are not allowed to go into any of the other provinces. And why? Are we not here to share each other’s burdens? Natal has to share the burdens of some of the other provinces. Why should not the other provinces share some of Natal’s burdens. If the Indians were allowed to spread, this would not be the burning problem, the burning question which it now is in Natal, and it seems to me that that would be the simplest way of getting rid of the problem. If they were spread all over the provinces, we would hear much less about this Indian question. Now, this Bill, like the Native Urban Areas Bill, throws the whole responsibility on the municipalities, and, instead of the Government tackling this question fairly and squarely, it simply hands it over to the municipalities and says: “You have to do this,” and that means that in many cases nothing will be done. I do not know myself where Durban is going to find the land to provide Native as well as Indian areas. Certainly not within the municipal boundaries, and that being so, it will become practically a dead letter, and the same applies to other parts. This is not the way to settle the problem, and, unless the Government is going to tighten up the Bill, make it more drastic and more imperative, I do not see much possibility of it being carried out. All this talk of raising the status of the Indian will not help us. They get plenty of education to-day, and, in many instances, the Indians are better educated than the whites, and I know that when you advertise for office boys, the best letters, the best written and the best composed come from Indians. The more education they get, the more ambitious are they to get into the higher offices, and the higher professions, and the more they will ask for their rights, and the consequence is that this question will go on, that it will become so much more difficult that we will not know where it will end. I remember many years ago, when the Indians were flocking into Natal in large numbers, it was announced that two shiploads of Indians were coming to Natal on a certain day. The people in Durban then rose in their strength, they shut up their offices and their shops and they went to the Point, and they threatened that if any of these Indians came ashore they would be thrown back into the Bay. The agitation was so strong and so menacing that the Attorney-General had to come to Durban from Pietermaritzburg. He addressed the people, and he said that if they would refrain from violence, and not take the law into their own hands, the Government would stop any further importation. These were very drastic actions to take, especially in Durban where we have a most law-abiding community, but, if this racial friction goes on it is very hard to say what action the people will take. The whites feel that all this Indian competition is most unfair. Men are thrown out of their work, and boys and children are growing up without there being any openings for them. No, this thing must stop. The Government has been faced with this for years, and they should do something more drastic than they are doing now. I shall vote for the principle contained in the Bill, but I do not think the Bill is what it should be, or makes all the provision that is wanted.

Ek kan nie anders nie as om die beginsel van die Wet te verwelkom, want dit is tog ’n kleine stap in die regte rigting. In Transvaal voel die blanke bevolking die toestand sterk; die hoofstrate van vele dorpe is al totaal ingeneem deur Asiate, dit is die geval in Middelburg. Ons het jaar na jaar geagiteer, opgegee en weer begint. Daar is besluit, dat die witmense nie meer by Asiate moet koop nie, maar die meeste mense koop maar waar hulle die goed die goedkoopste kan kry. Dit spreek vanself, dat die Asiaat baie goedkoper leef as die witman en daarom ook miskien goedkoper kan verkoop. Maar kan ons Suid-Afrika, wat ons so duur gekoop het, met koue hande afgee en toelaat, dat die Asiaat die witman uitdruk? As ons nie die bul by die horings pak nie, sal dit nog meer agteruit gaan en wat sal van ons word? Ons het reeds die naturellebevolking van ses miljoen om mee rekening te hou en as daar dan nog die groot asiatiese bevolking by kom, dan word die toestand haglik. Hulle neem die een groot dorp na die ander in, om van die kleintjies nie eers te praat nie. In Middelburg het hulle die witmense al uit die hoofstraat uitgedruk en die ander straat, waarheen die wit winkeliers toe gegaan is, het die Indiërs ook al vir die helfte ingeneem. Die Wet gaan nie ver genoeg nie; net die een, wat nog nie ’n winkel gekoop het of ’n liksens het nie, die word uitgeset, maar hoeveel is daar nie alreeds, wat van daardie dinge voorsien is? Ek is daarvoor, dat die Wet strikter gemaak moet word. Ons het nie die geld om die Asiate in die dorpe uit te koop nie, maar ons moet die saak uit selfbeskerming nou aanpak en dit so maak, dat die Indiër nie kan floreer ten koste van die witman nie en dat hy hoe eerder hoe beter moet padgee. Die volk van Indië kan ons nie kwalik neem nie, want geeneen van ons het na Indië gegaan nie om hulle daar te verdruk. As ons nie oppas nie, gee ek die blanke mensdom hier nog vyftig jaar, dan is daar van ons niks oor nie. Baie is net so geleerd as die witman en kan dus met dese kompeteer en nou word naturel ook nog geleerd; ons werk hulle op om te kan kompeteer met die witman. Ek vra wat sal van die witman word binne nog ’n vyftig jaar, veral as die drang om aan al daardie nasies nog stemreg te gee ook nog verwesenlik word? Ons moet oppas om nie papbroekerig op te tree nie, sodat ons onse land en regte onder ons uitgee en dat die nageslag knegte van Asiate en naturelle word. Ons moet ’n manlike standpunt inneem en doen wat nodig is. Ons moet geen onreg doen nie, maar ek reken, dat dit geen onreg is nie, as ons hulle uitset en die reg gee om daar te woon en te handel. Daar word gesê, dat hulle uitgehonger sal word, maar in Transvaal bestaat die beste handel uit die kaffers en die sal die Indiërs hê in hulle basaars, en nog ’n beter handel dryf as die witman. Dit is ’n onhoubare toestand in my kiesafdeling en baie ander; geen witman wil aan weerskante van hom Indiërs hê nie; hy gee so lief sy huis of winkel byna verniet weg. Die Wetsontwerp is in beginsel goed, maar die edelagbare die Minister moet maak dat ons ’n manliker houding aanneem. Die naturel, wat meer regte in die land behoort te hê as die Indiër, het ons uitgesit en as ons dit doen, kan ons die Indiër ook afsonder. Ek vertrou, dat die edelagbare die Minister sal toesien, dat almaal uiteindelik uitgesit word.

Energy seems to be lacking in the debate, and I wonder whether the hon. the Minister will accept the adjournment. I beg to move—

seconded.

Agreed to.