from Stephanus Kriegler Hauptfleisch, teacher.

from Thomas Wesson, ex-asylum attendant.

from women of the Cape Province, praying for legislation whereby the age of consent may be fixed throughout the Union at over sixteen years, or in no case under sixteen years.

Papers relating to lease of foreshore adjoining farm “Misgunst aan de Gouritz Rivier,” Mossel Bay, as a whaling station.

These papers were referred to the Select Committee on Waste Lands.

Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure, year ending 31st March, 1913 (Vote 20, “Mines”).

These Estimates were referred to the Committee of Supply on the Estimates.

Imperial Bluebook, correspondence respecting administration and finances of the Congo; copies of correspondence in connection with the ostrich expedition to North Africa.

Extract from minutes of extraordinary general meeting, National Bank, held at Pretoria, 23rd May, 1912.

announced that the Governor-General, in the name and on behalf of His Majesty the King, had been pleased to give his assent to the following Bills, viz.:

Unauthorised Expenditure (1910-1911) Act.

Land Settlement Act.

asked for the ruling of Mr. Speaker on the following points: The other day he (Mr. Brown) put a question with regard to the purchase of the farms Cypress and Klipfontein. He wished to know whether certain returns had been made to the Master of the Supreme Court. He did not put the question on the paper, as Mr. Speaker had ruled it out of order. He had private information to the effect that according to returns made to the Master of the Supreme Court, these two farms had changed hands at 30s. per morgen, and £2 per morgen, within the last few years. Was he (Mr. Brown) within his rights in asking Mr. Speaker to give his reasons publicly for ruling the question out of order; he had already had those reasons privately?

The question referred to the purchase of the farms Cypress and Klipfontein, which had been disposed of by resolution of both Houses of Parliament. The rule is that questions must not refer to any debate or to a reply that has been given during the current session, and consequently I could not allow that question to appear on the Order Paper.

said that a loan dealing with the matter was coming before the House later, and he would like to know whether it would be competent then to re-open the subject.

replied in the affirmative.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) Whether he is aware that the public is inconvenienced by the abolition of the postal service between the town of Hoopstad and Brakfontein and Klippan, in the district of Hoopstad, Orange Free State; and (2) whether he considers that the abolition can be justified; and whether he will state the reasons therefor?

replied: (1) At the request of the inhabitants of Hoopstad, the service between Hoopstad and Bloemhof was increased from a horse post once a week to a cart service three times a week, and the connection between Hoopstad and Brandfort twice a week discontinued. Following upon these changes the through route from Hoopstad to Ventersburg-road, via Brakfontein and Klippan, was abolished. (2) The expenditure on the through route from Hoopstad to Ventersburg-road was then no longer postally warranted, and the section Hoopstad to Brakfontein was cut off. Both Brakfontein and Klippan are now served from Ventersburg-road, and this connection meets requirements

asked the Minister of Lands whether he is prepared to take the necessary steps to have a survey made during the recess of the Orange River, in the neighbourhood of Fluitjeskraal, in the district of Hope Town, or some other suitable place, in order to ascertain the extent and suitability of the land which could be beneficially included under an irrigation scheme?

replied: The question of carrying out systematic irrigation reconnaissance survey operations along the Orange River has been receiving consideration for some time, but owing to the great pressure of work to which the Irrigation Department is at present committed, it is not possible to give an undertaking that the Orange River Survey in the vicinity of Fluitjeskraal, district of Hope Town, will be commenced during the recess.

asked the Minister of the Interior why the vacancy caused by the resignation of Dr. Abraham, the District Surgeon of Dundee, was filled by appointing Dr. Lloyd without advertising for applications in the usual manner?

replied: The facts in this case are that Dr. Abraham was one of the District Surgeons of Natal, who, in terms of the original appointment, made in 1889, was entitled to a pension on retirement. This gentleman approached the Government with a suggestion that, in consideration of his waiving his right to pension, the Government should appoint his partner, Dr. Lloyd, and as the change was strongly recommended by the Magistrate of the district, and the Treasury was thereby relieved of liability for pension to Dr. Abraham, the proposal was agreed to. I may add that, although vacant district surgeoncies are usually advertised, there is no obligation on the part of the Government to do so in all cases, or in any case where an officer suitable for the post is already on the spot.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours to state for the year 1911: (1) The gross profits, and (2) the profits per ton per mile on the carriage of coal between (a) Glencoe Junction and Durban, (b) Breyten and Delagoa Bay, (c) Indwe and East London, (d) Witbank and Germiston, and (e) Witbank and Pretoria?

replied that he was very sorry it was impossible for him to give the information asked for by the hon. member. The fact was that it was not only coal that was carried, but other traffic as well. It was impossible to give the hon. member the return asked for, but he would hand him a memorandum which had been prepared.

asked the Minister of Commerce and Industries what sums were rebated in respect of Customs duty on South African goods imported into Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, respectively, in the year 1911?

replied: Approximately the amounts for the year 1911 rebated are as follows: Canada, £868; Australia, £1,112; and New Zealand, £4,765.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether he is aware of the scarcity of labourers among farmers in the Cape Province by reason of the coloured people, who were in their service, being recruited for the mines, and also because many coloured people are living an idle life in municipal locations; and (2) whether he will take steps to put an end to this undesirable state of affairs?

replied: (1) If the term “coloured people” used by the hon. member is intended to include natives, the answer to this question is in the affirmative. The Government in dealing with the matter of recruitment of natives for the mines have had in view the needs of the farmers, both in the Cape Province and throughout the Union. In the Cape Province proper, recruiting for natives is prohibited except in 17 districts. In two of these, namely, Kimberley and Barkly West, natives may only be recruited for employment in those districts. In ten of the remainder, selected because of the large number of natives residing in them, recruiting is only allowed in the locations or areas set apart for their occupation. Unrestricted recruiting is only permitted in five districts. In this way everything possible is done to avoid hampering the local farming and industrial interests. As to natives living an idle life in municipal locations, representations have been made to the Government on the subject from several quarters and the matter is receiving careful consideration. (2) If by the term “coloured people” is meant the off-coloured or half-caste class, it must be understood that the Native Labour Regulation Act does not apply to these people.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether, in view of the fact that the Board of Trade has appointed a committee to consider the subject of the provision of bulkheads, water-tight compartments, and life-saving devices in ships, the Government is prepared to press for the inclusion of a condition in any new contract that such appliances as may be approved by this committee, shall be provided on all ships carrying the South African mails?

replied that the Government would not lose sight of the necessity for insuring the provision of such safeguards, but it was impossible at this stage to require that the Board of Trade regulations should be adopted.

asked the Minister of Education what sums it is estimated that the several Provinces will pay in respect of teachers’ salaries during the year 1912-13, and whether it is possible to state in regard to each Province what part of these sums is in respect of salaries in schools for white children and what part in respect of salaries in schools for other children?

replied that the matter was one for the Provincial Administrations, but as the Union-Government had to vote the money he would give the statement asked for. He had got detailed information which he would lay on the table. The statement was as follows:

1. (a) The grants are paid on the £ for £ principle.
2. (b) The Government grants exceed the local contributions.
3. (c) Per capita contribution, based upon the number of pupils.

The above information has been supplied by the respective Provinces.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether during the past twelve months he has received any report or reports from the railway medical officer, Springs, on the condition of the railway cottages in that town; if so, whether the said medical officer did report favourably or otherwise; (2) if no report has been received, whether he will cause investigation to be made into the sanitary and general conditions of these cottages; (3) what is the number of railway cottages in Springs for (a) married men and (b) for single men; are they all occupied, and what is the monthly rental charged by the Department therefor; (4) how long have these cottages been built; have they been overhauled, and when; and (5) whether the Minister is aware that a child, aged five years, has recently died from scarlatina in one of these cottages, and that the cause of the disease is generally attributed to the bad state of the cottages?

replied: (1) No. (2) Yes; matter is being investigated. (3) (a) 25, all occupied; (b) 53, 34 of which are occupied and 19 vacant. In addition, there are the quarters occupied by the stationmaster, two foremen, four platelayers, and eleven white labourers, for which no rent is charged. Rental charged for married quarters is according to dimensions of house, and ranges from £2 to £4 per month. Rent of single rooms is 12s. 6d. to 15s. (4) All quarters, except stationmaster’s house, were built by Z.A.S.M. Twenty married quarters and 20 single quarters have been overhauled since 1908. All quarters have had exterior walls lime washed and surface drains installed since 1910. White labourers’ quarters for six families have been renovated since 1911. (5) The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and the answer to the second part in the negative.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) What stock of German and English beer is now held by the railway catering department; and (2) whether it is a fact that such is sold over the railway administration 25 per cent. cheaper than Colonial beer?

replied that the railway catering department had a large stock of German and English beers, and it was quite true that less was charged for these beers than was charged for Colonial beer, for the simple reason that there was such a marked preference for Colonial beer that they could not sell the other beer. The catering department had had their stock of imported beer since 1903, and they would continue to sell it for less than was paid for Colonial beer until they had sold it.

asked the Minister of the Interior when he will lay on the table the return in reference to advertising ordered by this House on the 4th April, 1911?

replied: I hope the return in question will be laid on the table of the House on Thursday next.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether excursion facilities during the winter season have been extended to passengers wishing to visit the Natal coast from stations on the Stuartstown line, and, if not, why not?

replied: Passengers from the Stuartstown line enjoy the same excursion facilities as are usually extended to passengers from other lines, but there are no general excursion bookings in force during the winter. Tickets at reduced rates, available by specified trains only, are, however, issued from certain populous inland centres to Durban and East London during that season, and passengers joining these trains at intermediate stations on the direct route are allowed to avail themselves of the facilities offered.

asked the Minister of Native Affairs whether he intends to refuse to issue or renew recruiting licences to attorneys and law agents in the Transkeian Territories after the close of the present year?

replied: The Government does not view with approval the issue of recruiting licences to attorneys and law agents, but each application for the issue of a recruiting licence is dealt with on its merits.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) What is the total number of (a) married men and (b) unmarried men, on the postal executive staff, who were transferred from one town to another within the Union during the financial year 1911-12; and (2) what was the total cost of such transfers for each of the classes (a) and (b) respectively?

requested that the matter be allowed to stand over. They were getting the information.

moved for leave to introduce a Bill to regulate in certain respects the admission and enrolment of attorneys.

seconded.

put the question that leave be granted, and declared that the “Noes” had it.

called for a division, which was taken with the following result.

Ayes—85.

Alberts, Johannes Joachim

Alexander, Morris

Baxter, William Duncan

Becker, Heinrich Christian

Berry, William Bisset

Bosman, Hendrik Johannes

Botha, Christian Lourens

Botha, Louis

Brain, Thomas Phillip

Brown, Daniel Maclaren

Burton, Henry

Chaplin, Francis Drummond Percy

Clayton, Walter Frederick

Creswell, Frederic Hugh Page

Crewe, Charles Preston

Cronje, Frederik Reinhardt

Cullinan, Thomas Major

Currey, Henry Latham

De Beer, Michiel Johannes

De Jager, Andries Lourens

De Waal, Hendrik

Duncan, Patrick

Du Toit, Gert Johan Wilhelm

Griffin, William Henry

Grobler, Pieter Gert Wessel

Haggar, Charles Henry

Heatlie, Charles Beeton

Henderson, James

Henwood, Charlie

Jagger, John William

Joubert, Christiaan Johannes Jacobus

Juta, Henry Hubert

Keyter, Jan Gerhard

King, John Gavin

Kuhn, Pieter Gysbert

Lemmer, Lodewyk Arnoldus Slabbert

Leuchars, George

Long, Basil Kellett

Louw, George Albertyn

Maasdorp, Gysbert Henry

Macaulay, Donald

Madeley, Walter Bayley

Malan, Francois Stephanus

Marais, Johannes Henoch

Marais, Pieter Gerhardus

Merriman, John Xavier

Meyer Izaak Johannes

Meyler, Hugh Mowbray

Myburgh, Marthinus Wilhelmus

Nathan, Emile

Neser, Johannes Adriaan

Oliver, Henry Alfred

Orr, Thomas

Phillips, Lionel

Robinson, Charles Phineas

Runciman, William

Sampson, Henry William

Sauer, Jacobus Wilhelmus

Schreiner, Theophilus Lyndall

Searle, James

Serfontein, Hendrik Philippus

Smartt, Thomas William

Smuts, Tobias

Steyl, Johannes Petrus Gerhardus

Steytler, George Louis

Stockenstrom, Andries

Struben, Charles Frederick William

Theron, Hendrick Schalk

Theron, Petrus Jacobus George

Van der Merwe, Johannes Adolph P.

Van Eeden, Jacobus Willem

Venter, Jan Abraham

Vintcent, Alwyn Ignatius

Vosloo, Johannes Arnoldus

Walton, Edgar Harris

Watermeyer, Egidius Benedictus

Watkins, Arnold Hirst

Watt, Thomas

Wessels, Daniel Hendrick Willem

Wilcocks, Carl Theodorus Muller

Wiltshire, Henry

Woolls-Sampson, Aubrey

Wyndham, Hugh Archibald

J. Hewat and C. Joel Krige, tellers.

Noes—7.

Geldenhuys, Lourens

Grobler, Evert Nicolaas

Neethling, Andrew Murray

Vermaas, Hendrik Cornelius

Wilhelmus Whitaker, George

A. Fawcus and C. A. van Niekerk, tellers.

The motion was accordingly agreed to.

The Bill was read a first time, and the second reading set down for Wednesday, the 19th.

moved: “That in the opinion of this House the attention of the Government should be directed to the urgent necessity of providing adequate railway facilities for the conveyance of coal from the Natal coalfields to Durban.” The mover said he knew that it was the opinion of the House that the Government should at the end of the session take into consideration only urgent matters. He was aware that the House was tired, and wanted to get to the end as soon as possible, but it would be necessary for him to say a few words in explanation why he moved this motion. The coal industry in Natal was, next to the agricultural industry, the most important in that Province. It was a growing one, and he hoped it would grow still further. In 1902 the output of coal was 600,000 tons. In 1907 it was 1½ million tons. The present output as far as 1912 went was equal to an annual output of 2¾ millions. They would, therefore, see that the industry had more than doubled during the first period of five years and almost doubled during the second period, and in view of the latest developments, they had no doubt that it would maintain the same rate of increase. It had often been said that it did not pay to carry coal, but they had it stated in a report of the Natal Railways for 1907 that the carriage of coal had saved the situation, and according to the last published report of the General Manager of Railways, the tonnage of coal carried, including that in the Transvaal, amounted to one-half of the total amount of goods carried upon the railways. He thought the House would agree with him that an industry of this sort ought to be encouraged. Complaints had been made in the past that the railway facilities had not always kept pace with the demand. According to the return made by the Minister of Railways, which was laid upon the table, the total capacity of the railways, as far as the carrying of coal, in addition to other material, was 10,000 tons per diem, from the coalfields to Cato Ridge (45 miles from Durban) and 9,000 tons from Cato Ridge to Durban. The average output was 8,500 tons per diem, and of that quantity fully 7,000 tons was carried to the port. On paper it would therefore appear that the railway facilities were quite equal to the demand, but, as a matter of fact, vessels had been delayed at Durban without being able to get coal. He had a return in his hand which showed that since April 1 49 steamers had been detained at Durban for periods ranging from half-a-day to ten days. They were either detained during this period waiting for coal, or, being unable to wait until it arrived, left without it. This had been giving the port of Natal a very bad name throughout the shipping world. In this connection, however, he would acknowledge the good work done by the Railway Administration, for, when they came to consider the facilities they had to deal with, they had done wonders. It was a serious thing, especially for large steamers, to lie up at a port for several days. Shipping people informed him that a White Star steamer, carrying 400 passengers between Australia and England, cost about £200 a day, including wages, food and other supplies, so every day a steamer was kept waiting for coal her owners lost £200 a day. These figures were serious, and, if continued, would end in disaster to the industry concerned. His remarks were not made to find fault with the Administration—(Ministerial cheers)—because he believed that the Railway Administration had risen to the occasion. He was told that the delay occurred by the manner in which the colliery people tied up the trucks, and that from 17,000 to 21,000 tons per day were lying at Durban awaiting ships. The Railway Administration said that there ought to be some arrangement made for classifying coal, so that a steamer could get coal without delay, and without waiting for coal from a particular company; but there were several practical difficulties in the way. One was that some companies went to much more expense than others in opening up fresh markets and securing contracts. It was not fair to expect an enterprising company to share its business with others

The coal varied largely in quality. Taking the best coal in the Transvaal, viz., Witbank, as representing 100 per cent. of efficiency, as the Assistant Controller and Auditor-General did in the appendix to the fourth report of the Public Accounts Committee, Natal coal ranged from 103 to 130 per cent. It was extremely difficult to see in which way any agreements which would be fair to all the collieries could be arrived at with regard to the classification of coal. Another difficulty was that, for the protection of the public, the Natal Government some four or five years ago entered into an agreement with some collieries which wanted to build railways, providing that these companies should not join any ring or combination the object of which was to regulate prices. If coal companies could not combine for the purpose of regulating prices, it seemed to him that it would be impossible for them to combine for any other purpose. The difficulties of standardising the coal were so great that the Government would have to face the situation as it existed, and endeavour to foster this trade by supplying all the trucks that were necessary for the purpose of getting the coal to the ports. It seemed to him also that the Government would have to face the necessity of keeping a large quantity of coal at the port in the trucks as the coal would not stand handling. His contention was that, with the probable reduction of the coal rates for export purposes, with the absolute certainty that a large trade could be done between Natal and South America, Ceylon, the East Indies, and the East generally, the expansion of the industry would be so great during the next few years that the improvements which the Government had in hand, and which they contemplated, would not be sufficient to meet the demands made upon the railways. He would ask the Government to look ahead more than four or five years, and not be content with increasing the capacity of the line for the carriage of coal to 18,000 tons a day. The contemplated improvements would take two years at least, and in four or five years the output of coal would exceed 18,000 tons a day. What would happen then? He was free to admit that the Minister so far, instead of being the enemy of Natal, as some of his Durban friends said, had proved its friend. (Hear, hear, and a VOICE: “Who?”) He noticed that at a recent meeting of the Durban Chamber of Commerce a leading merchant in Durban had referred to the Minister of Railways and Harbours as the enemy of Natal.

Then why not say so?

said he thought it was only right that their friends in Durban should acknowledge that the Minister had asked that Parliament to vote very large sums indeed for the purpose of improving the main line. Last year the House voted over £240,000 for improving this main line. In the present year’s Estimates provision was made for even a larger expenditure on the improvement of the main line of Natal.

There was practically an unlimited amount of coal to be obtained at Durban if the price were suitable. At present the price was very low. The Government should do its part by providing such railway facilities that would bring the coal and the shippers together, so that there would be no difficulty in vessels getting all the coal they wanted. There was going to be a large demand for coal on the part of vessels which in the past had not called here at all, for owing to the coal strikes in England, South America, which had no coal deposits, was beginning to look to South Africa, which ought to be in a position to meet the former’s demand for coal. At present the coal development was making no progress, and the coal owners were determined not to spend any more money until they were satisfied that the railway was capable of dealing with an increased output. Ten years ago several schemes came before the Natal Parliament for building a new line or improving the existing one. He did not ask the House to express an opinion on that matter All that he asked was that the House should express an opinion in view of the large development which was expected in the coal industry of Natal that the Government should look into the matter and should come forward with a scheme so that the development of the coalfields would not be retarded by the want of proper railway facilities. The Industries Commission reported that it was essential that no risk should be run in this matter, and that not only should ample reserves of coal be available, but also appliances for rapid loading. Either the doubling of the existing line or the building of a new line would mean an enormous expenditure—some people said five millions, and Government would not bring forward such proposal without mature consideration.

An investigation, however, was absolutely necessary. The Durban Advisory Board on May 12 last expressed the opinion that the requirements of the coal industry and the general trade of the port demanded the early provision of a separate mineral line. The Durban Chamber of Commerce had passed a similar resolution. Mr. Ludwig Wiener, Chairman of the Port Inquiry Board, and who would be regarded as not being prejudiced in favour of Durban, told him a few days ago that he was enormously impressed with the possibilities of the Natal coal trade, and that he looked upon it as being absolutely necessary that additional railway facilities should be given. At the present time he (Sir Thomas) admitted that the capacity of the railway was quite sufficient to carry the coal now being produced, and for the expansion of the next four or five years, but when they had in view the probable reduction of rates they must look forward to a very largely increased coal traffic. If the rates were reduced by a couple of shillings a ton he was perfectly convinced that they would have a demand for five, six, or seven million tons of coal every year, and in that case the railway would be incapable of handling the traffic. The Government should handle the question in a broad and statesmanlike manner, and he asked the Minister of Railways, in justice to the coal industry, which was as important to Natal as the mealie industry was, to deal with the matter in the same bold and liberal way that he had done the mealie trade. At the present time the coal industry was one of the best industries of the Natal Province, and the time had arrived when the Government should institute an inquiry and have surveys made of the line.

The Prime Minister had told them that his policy with regard to agriculture was “Forward, forward, ever forward,” and he hoped that those connected with the Natal coal industry would be able to say that that was the policy of the Minister of Railways. The coal industry was not one that asked for grants-in-aid, or any large sums to pay for experts to advise on its development. The people interested in the coal trade did not grudge the vast sums which were paid by the taxpayers for the development of agriculture, and he hoped that the Government would see its way to increase the facilities for the development of the industry of which he was speaking.

seconded the motion.

said that he supported the hon. member for Dundee. When he was in Natal he went into the question of export coal. The Government were spending enormous sums of money in flattening the curves and reducing the gradients, and it was up to the Government to see if it was not possible to get a cheaper line which would do the bulk traffic. He knew that there was a great future before the Natal coal industry, and he would strongly urge the Government to consider this matter.

said that the hon. member for Dundee had asked for better facilities from the Government for the coal industry, and he would like to tell the House what the Railway Board was doing in the matter. It was spending large sums of money upon improving the main line. As a matter of fact, the line had already been very greatly improved, as also had been its carrying capacity. The Government was reducing the gradients and flattening the curves at the most difficult parts of the line, and he thought that when that was completed the carrying capacity of the line would be doubled. He was positive that the carrying capacity would be 20,000 tons per day, and, seeing that there was no probability of an immediate development of the coal trade, he would ask the House whether it would not be advisable to see what the result of the improvements would be before undertaking the construction of any new line. He did not know whether it would be better to build a new line or double the present one, but he considered that when the improvements were made the line’s carrying capacity would be doubled. Personally, he considered the Government was right in the course it was taking. The main cause of the trouble was that the trucks had to remain at the port so many days unloaded. It was for the convenience of the colliery proprietors, and not for the convenience of the railways that ships were delayed, because they could not take the coal out of the trucks. If this state of affairs were to be corrected there were two ways in which this could be done. The railways must provide more trucks or the collieries must provide their own trucks for the carrying of coal. The colliery proprietors’ idea was to get as much profit as they could out of their minerals, but as to the general requirements of the public he did not think they would go very much out of their way on that account. Concluding, the hon. member said he had endeavoured to state only what were bare facts, and he believed that it was his duty to say upon that occasion, however much the development might be at some future date, with regard to the building of new lines, the necessity of the moment was not at all great.

said he believed that the area of the Natal coal-fields was one of the best, if not the best, in the southern hemisphere. The coal exported for bunkering in 1910 was 1,400,0 tons, and only something like 362,0 tons were actually exported. This was not a large quantity, and there were very large markets to be found for coal. Coal could be sent as far as Singapore. Coal had been sent to the East Coast; in fact, if they went to Aden they would find large quantities of coal there, and besides that, they had the great market of South America, which annually took hundreds of thousands of tons from South Wales every year, but they could not expect merchants to engage in contracts for coal unless they could be sure of their supply. At present they could not do so. He knew that the difficulties would not be overcome to any great extent unless either a new line were built or an alternate line. There was another alternative which would do a lot of good, and that was by allowing the colliery proprietors to keep their own trucks, as they did in England. If that were so, then the colliery proprietors could not afford to stock the coal. If the Department were going to encourage this trade properly, they would have to do it on business lines, and if they could not provide more trucks themselves, they must allow the colliery proprietors to have their own trucks. If they wanted to develop a good bunkering trade, it was fatal to keep ships waiting, and if they were going to keep them waiting once or twice, he did not see how they were going to keep their bunkering trade together at all. If they could get the coal quickly and cheaply to the ports, he could foresee a great development in the industry.

said the great drawback in the Natal coal trade was because Natal coal was very soft, and would not bear stacking. His solution of the difficulty would be to allow the colliery proprietors to have their own trucks. The facilities at Port Natal and Durban were very great, but the chief drawback was the detention of the trucks there. There was a gentleman in their midst just now, who was capable of developing this coal trade more than anyone else. It would certainly be to his interests to see that the Natal coal trade went ahead. He was strongly of opinion that the mines should be given facilities for having their own trucks. (Hear, hear.) His firm belief was that that was the easiest way of solving the problem. They must look ahead. He did not agree with the hon. member on his right (Mr. Wiltshire) that they should wait, wait. If they were going to develop a trade they should not wait until they actually wanted the facilities.

said that the hon. member who had brought this motion before the House had said that the present output of the collieries was 8,000 tons, and that the improvements which were being carried out and could be carried out would give them a carrying capacity of 18,000 tons a day.

Not all the way.

said that he really could not see the necessity of coming to the Minister of Railways and Harbours at this stage of the session with a motion of this kind to do what he himself had said in his Budget speech he would do, that was to say, that he would keep his eye on the development of the coal trade, that he would take a long view, and that he would see that the railway development should proceed apace with the development of that trade. Were they to be asked by some vague motion, which one member took one way and another took another, to waste all the money that had been put into the main line between Durban and the Border for the sake of building an alternative line until it was absolutely proved that the capabilities of that line in which they had sunk so much capital had been exhausted?

a good portion of whose remarks were inaudible, heartily supported the motion, and thanked Sir Thomas Watt for bringing up this matter, which was of so great importance to Natal. His district was in the midst of the coalfields, and he fully realised that on the railways depended the welfare of the coal industry. The Minister need never fear or be nervous about spending money on the coal industry, as the coalfields would handsomely pay for any expenditure on their behalf. They only awaited exploitation. The hon. member for Maritzburg, North, need not be alarmed at the prospect of an alternative line. He repeated his endorsement of the views expressed by the hon. member for Dundee, and hoped the Minister would accept the motion.

said that some of them, when they saw that motion on the paper, thought it was a mild vote of censure on the Government for not providing trucks or facilities enough for the Natal coal trade. One felt a good deal of sympathy for the hon. member for Dundee as he opened his speech, but he felt that the hon. member as he went on had entirely failed to prove his case, and he could not see that he left himself with a leg to stand on, as the saying was. He did not want to disparage Natal coal, because they all used it, and excellent coal it was; neither did he wish to cast any slur upon the prospects of developing a large coal trade between this part of the world and any other part of the world, for that, too, was an excellent thing to do; but what did they find? The hon. member, in his figures, told them that the mines were capable of bringing out at the present time a little over two million tons of coal, and he went on to say that the present railway facilities were ten thousand tons a day. That came to about 3,650,000 tons a year.

Nine thousand.

said he would take it at 9,000. Then the hon. member (Sir T. Watt) went on to say that the improvements which were being made at the present time in this line of railway by the Railway Department would presently give facilities for the transport of 18,000 tons a day. That came to 6½ million tons a year. Then the hon. member said that the mines would only be able to put out under these circumstances about five million tons a year. The facts seemed to be that in the course of a few months the Government would be able to carry six million tons of coal, while the mines would not be able to put out more than 5,000,000 tons a year. He did not see that the hon. member had proved his case at all, especially as the Government seemed to be quite alive to the situation, and were doing their best to meet the necessities of the case. He did not think that those of them who represented other parts of the country would be doing their duty in these circumstances if they supported such a proposal, while some of their constituents were crying out for railway facilities even to bring goods to their door. His contention was that at present the Government were clearly doing all they could in this matter, and he did not see why they should urge upon the Government the extension of facilities in that direction. He thought that at the present moment they were bound to exercise a little caution.

said the Transvaal coal mines had the same grievance as the Natal mines. That is to say, there were not enough trucks, and the freight charges were too high. If the rates on the carriage of coal were reduced every section of the community would benefit, and other industries would progress as they had never done in the past. Cheaper transport of coal would encourage the use of agricultural machinery. He, therefore, supported the motion, and hoped the Minister would not lose sight of the requirements of the Transvaal coal mines.

in supporting the motion, said that hon. members must have seen from the country press for many years that there had always been complaints in regard to the delivery of coal at the Point. He was not prepared to say that the management were altogether to blame for that, but he believed that the blame lay in the fact of having a single line, which was taxed almost up to its full carrying capacity. There had been large sums spent in improving the present line, in reducing the curves and gradients, and, naturally, increasing the carrying capacity, but their increased annual output of maize, bark, wool, and coal had more than counterbalanced the improvements on the main line up to the present. What they required, to his mind, was a shorter line.

This would have the effect of doubling the coal output, and also, owing to the lesser expense of carriage, of reducing the cost of living on the Rand. The margin between the carrying capacity of the present line and the amount of traffic carried over it was a very small one indeed. They had been told in Natal for years past that it was no use tinkering with the present main line, but that they would have to build an alternative line. The saving in mileage of fifty miles if they adopted the latter course would more than repay the cost. For a long time past there had been a cry for more people on the land, but what was the use of having that unless they had railways to carry their produce? The coal industry could be made a very large one indeed, and if the new line were built, the output would be doubled. Every ship that called at Durban for coal was an asset to the Province, and it was to the interest of the Union generally to do all that it could to build up the coal trade. They would probably be told that the fault for the delays that at present occurred rested with the people at the Point, who detained the trucks, but that difficulty would, to a large extent, be overcome if a new line were constructed. He did not ask for an alternative line, but for the shortest and best line, irrespective of Maritzburg. The matter should be looked at from the country’s standpoint, and not from a narrow standpoint. (Cheers.) If the House declined to give facilities to Natal, then the House must take the blame for hindering the development of the industries of Natal.

said the question of improving the present line or constructing an alternative one should have some consideration. It might not pay to carry coal at the present rate over such a railway as they had in Natal, but there should be an investigation to see what better line they could have, on which the conveyance of coal would pay very well indeed. The hon. member for Maritzburg, North (Mr. Orr), took a rather narrow view of the question. He thought that all the coal should be carried through Maritzburg for the purpose of inspection. (Laughter.) The hon. member for Queenstown (Sir W. B. Berry) had suddenly appeared as an authority on this matter. The question of providing increased facilities for the conveyance of coal was one of the most momentous matters which could possibly be brought before that House. In his opinion the matter narrowed itself down entirely to the question of building a new coal line. The question was not whether they could afford to do this at the present moment, but how long could they afford not to do it, because South Africa must be wealthy indeed if it could afford to go on throwing away at least £100,000 a year, which was probably underestimating the amount which was lost through not undertaking the matter in a business-like way. Natal was raising something in the neighbourhood of three million tons of coal per annum, the major portion of which was sent to Durban, and owing to the gradients it was in the aggregate unnecessarily carried up 2,000 feet in the air. This seemed a tremendous waste of engine power.

People who had travelled in Natal must have noticed coal trains labouring up gradients with three engines, one at each end and another in the middle, and they must have been struck by the tremendous cost and waste of energy entailed in this connection. When hon. members considered that forty or fifty trains went through this process daily, they would realise what it meant. He believed that there was a possibility in the building of a new coal line of saving a very large sum in this connection. Passengers travelling from Durban up-country must have been struck by the tremendous delays which were incurred by running coal traffic and passenger traffic over the same line at the same time. It was a common thing to find two or three coal trains standing in stations waiting to allow passenger trains to pass. All that sort of thing meant a great deal of expenditure, and a great waste of time, which he considered could be saved by the building of a new coal line. In Natal they were running a heavier traffic over a single line than in any other part of the world, and they were running that traffic over a line which was not designed to carry it. They had gone on from year to year strengthening the permanent way and bridges, rebuilding short sections and long sections, until they had spent almost as much money as would have been required to build a new coal line. He had sufficient faith in Natal to believe that both lines—passenger line and coal line—would be needed. In fact, they were both needed today; they were absolutely necessary at the present moment to avoid the delay and useless expenditure of money, which was now going on in Natal owing to conveying heavy coal trains from the mines to Durban over a line which was ill-fitted for the purpose. He repeated that the Government’s; policy should be to build a new coal line in Natal. It was calculated that the railway in the North-west of the Cape Province when constructed, would cost the country £40,000 per annum in loss, and their policy should be to build a railway in Natal which was going to save £100 000 per year, and that line would be able to pay the loss on such lines as might be needed in other parts of the country. Another matter which he wished to refer to was the question of the facilities for working the coal seams. They were almost unequalled anywhere in the world. The coal in the Zululand seam actually ran out by gravity. Again, they had thousands of citizens who were willing workers and who were not, up to the present, controlled by trade unionists, and in all probability Syndicalism would not make headway amongst them. That was an asset to South Africa, and one worthy of consideration by the House. To-day they could put coal on the trucks cheaper than anywhere else in the world, and all they wanted was a railway suitable for conveying the coal from the mines to Durban. An illustration of the strong position in which the coal trade in South Africa was to-day was the recent coal strike in England. Whereas the price of coal at the bunkering ports in the world practically doubled, the increase at Durban was only two shillings per ton. He trusted that the Minister would accept the motion.

stated that the hon. member had been perfectly fair in his speech, and on the whole, had stated the case as it existed to-day. Now, as to the great value of the coal industry in Natal and in the Transvaal there could be no two opinions. The coal industry was more valuable than other minerals, which were more prominent today, and it was the duty of Parliament to give all the facilities that were required from time to time to enable the fullest and most complete development of that industry. Since Union they had certainly done what was possible in the matter. They carried to-day three times as large a quantity of coal on the Natal lines as they did immediately prior to Union. They had spent nearly a quarter of a million in reducing the gradients and improving the curves on the Natal line since Union, and they were about to spend very nearly another quarter of a million which Parliament was going to be asked to authorise this session. They had also spent something like £70,000 since Union on strengthening the bridges on the Natal line. With regard to the question of trucks mentioned by the hon. member for Cape Town, Central (Mr. Jagger), complaints had been made by the railway with regard to coal remaining in the trucks for a week, a fortnight and sometimes three weeks. The railway did not charge the coal companies, and he would like to mention that when hon. members on his side of the House kept their sheep in a truck for a day or two they were charged. The hon. member for Cape Town, Central, had said “Why don’t you allow the companies to provide their own trucks?” Well, he had never been approached by the companies on that subject, and he did not think that they would be anxious to do so. If they did they would find him sympathetic. Up to the present the coal companies had no serious cause for complaint. Sometimes coal had been delayed a little bit, but more often where coal had been put down at the ports it had been kept in the trucks. For the present requirements, and if no increase were contemplated, the present arrangements would meet all wants. He believed that the coal was as cheap in South Africa as in any other part of the world, but he had never been able to understand why in Natal they should not be able to deliver coal at the pit mouth as cheaply as they did in the Transvaal. Notwithstanding the facilities, they could buy coal in the Tranvaal cheaper than in Natal, South African coal was excellent, and good enough for sea purposes or manufacturing. He thought they would all agree that it would be an advantage to encourage the further use of their coal not only outside, but inside the Union. (Hear, hear.) He heard people talking about getting cheap rates for export, but he was almost inclined to give cheaper rates for coal within the Union. It was the same with mealies. Why should they sell their mealies for export when they could get as good prices in South Africa? (Hear, hear.) He would like to give facilities not only for the export of coal, but also for the coal that was being used here. He would advocate giving further inducements for the consumption of coal within the Union rather than outside. There was no reason why both should not be encouraged.

With regard to making provision for the future, he said that when he went to Durban some time ago a formidable deputation waited upon him, and asked that he should build a line of railway costing between five and seven millions. It did not seem to him that the time had come to deal with this question of building another main line for any one of the ports unless there were special and extraordinary reasons. The Union was very large, and they should develop the permanent industries of the country and agriculture as well. Therefore, he was not prepared to build railways from a port where railways existed already to another port. In a nutshell they were spending large sums of money in improving existing lines which in the immediate future would enable them to carry quantities much in excess of what they carried to-day. The maximum to-day was something like 9,500 tons daily, and they could increase that to 20,000 tons without building an additional line The wonder to him was that the present main line of Natal could be continued to work under the existing conditions. It was most trying, it was expensive, and there was a good deal of danger attending it. It was surprising there had been so little in the way of accidents as there had been. They were working there at high pressure, under unfavourable circumstances, and at a high cost which under suitable gradients would not be required. He had no objection to this resolution, but he could not pledge himself to a second line and spending such a large sum of money unless it were absolutely necessary, but he would agree to make full inquiry to the whole question. At the same time, he would see whether facilities already existing and contemplated would not enable them to develop the line in Natal without incurring the expense which would be necessary in building a new line. He would agree to take the resolution with the condition that he would carefully go into the whole question with experts, and when they met again he would say to the House what he thought was best to be done in the circumstances. He could assure the House that he would do his best to develop the coal industry.

rose to speak, and in answer to the Minister of Railways and Harbours said that he had not spoken before because he wanted to hear what the Minister had to say. He had been hoping that the hon. Minister would have said something more definite than he had done. He (Mr. Henderson) wished to draw attention to the fact that one of the great necessities in connection with the coal traffic of Natal was the need for better appliances at the port. Another statement made by the Railway Administration was that coal had been detained in the trucks for 17 days. This statement has been proved to be incorrect. As a matter of fact, it was absolutely necessary that coal should be kept in the trucks. If it were necessary he was quite sure that the coal companies would be quite willing to get their own trucks or hire them from the railway. It was nothing to speak of 22,000 tons of coal lying awaiting ships, and if there were to be a decent trade done in South Africa they would have to provide very much greater facilities than that, because steamers might want several thousand tons of coal at once. The Administration did not understand the necessities of this business or they would not speak of the coal lying in the trucks as being the reason of the delay. There was no other way. They must understand also, when speaking of the carrying capacity of the line, that they carried other material on their railways than coal; they carried large quantities of maize, wool, wattle bark, and other material. He did not believe that they could improve the present line to the extent required. It had been originally built from town to town, and no attempt had been made to take advantage of the easier gradients. They must have a line suitable to carry this traffic to the ports. He would just like to point out the enormous possibilities of the coal industry. The Argentine imported between 40 and 50 million tons of coal from Great Britain annually, and Natal was 2,000 miles nearer than Great Britain. Here was a market which was nearer, but at present they could do nothing, for the simple reason that they had not sufficient facilities for bringing the coal down to the ports. Then there were possibilities of markets in Mauritius, India, and the Far East. He hoped that the Minister would go down to Durban and see the difficulties under which the trade was conducted there. The port officials, and other officials, were doing their best, but they had been handicapped in days gone by on account of the want of truckage. If the Minister went down he would be satisfied, he believed, that the complaint which had been made by Durban was not entirely groundless, and he would try, he believed, to deal with this trade—which was not only a Natal trade but a Union trade as well. The Minister had asked why the Natal coal was dearer than the Transvaal coal at the pit mouth. The answer to that was that the seams in the Transvaal coal mines were larger than those in Natal, and therefore easier to work.

The motion was agreed to.

moved for a return showing for the year 1911 in each of the census districts of the Union: (1) The number of convictions for (a) drunkenness, and (b) illegal possession of liquor, of (i) Europeans, (ii) coloured people, and (ill) natives; (2) the proportion of the said convictions for drunkenness in each district to the adult European, coloured and native population of the same; and (3) the increase or decrease in each district of the number of convictions mentioned in paragraph (1) on the number of convictions during the year 1910.

seconded the motion.

said he desired to make a correction. He had stated that in the return made by the Magistrate at Queenstown, there were 862 convictions for drunkenness, and he understood that these were convictions of natives and coloured people. That would have given Queenstown the very high percentage of one in twelve. He found this was very much exaggerated, however, the actual convictions of coloured people for drunkenness being 37 out of 11,051 adults, or one in 300. And so instead of Queenstown being second on the list, it was only the thirteenth. The hon. member proceeded to refer to certain matters connected with a Consolidated Liquor Law.

There was a motion on the paper last Tuesday, which was carried. The hon. member used the same arguments then, and he will now resume his seat. He cannot use these arguments over again.

said although he would like to assist the hon. gentleman in getting these returns, it was impossible, for two reasons. In the first place, he was informed by the heads of his office that even if he could give them several assistants, it would take slightly over a month to get the necessary data. In the second place, almost half of the facts quoted by the hon. member were not covered by his office, because, in some parts, no records were kept as between the coloured people and the natives, and in either case no records were kept as between Europeans and coloured. He thought the hon. member should not press his motion.

The motion was negatived.

moved that the Government be requested to institute an inquiry without delay into the conditions of employment of daily-paid white men along the South African Railways, with a view to consider the advisability of raising the wage paid to such employees to a minimum of 7s. 6d. per diem. The mover said that in journeying up and down the railways in the Transvaal, he had come into contact with a large number of Europeans who were living very miserable existences, and he did not think that anyone who had the welfare of the community at heart could witness the conditions under which these people laboured, without feeling that some plea should be set up in that House to relieve their adversity. He had been influenced by several motives, first by sentiments of humanity, strong political convictions, and an intense desire to protect them from the unrelenting competition of the black man.

The majority of these people were Dutch-speaking, and many of them were descendants of the old voortrekkers, but, although there were many differences between himself and hon. members opposite politically, yet when it became a question of the maintenance of the white race in South Africa he was prepared to lay down his differences and go hand-in-hand with anyone who was prepared to maintain the dominance of the white race in this country.(Hear, hear.) These people were unsolicited legacies from all the Provinces of the Union. This was not a provincial question, but a question that affected the whole of the Union. He thought the people of the country, and those who had an established claim on the country by long service and long residence, should be protected by the State, and should at all times be prevented from degenerating to the level of white Kafirs. What was the position? The Government, roughly speaking, paid unmarried men on the railway system a wage of 3s. 4d. and married men 5s. per diem. He spoke, of course, under correction, but when he left the Transvaal he understood that that was the rate of pay. What physical work, he asked, were men who had to exist on such a pittance likely to perform? He spoke of the experimental importation some years ago of navvies from oversea for employment on railway rebuilding, and pointed out that, while these men did not find fault with the rates of pay, compared with what they could earn in England, they felt this very much, that they lost an enormous amount of caste, and in the end they returned to England, because they objected to work under such conditions. The men (he went on to say) for whom he was now pleading, were suffering under that degradation as well. Underlying this motion was a strong political principle, and on its acceptance depended the future rise or fall of the white race as the dominant race in South Africa. One of the unwritten laws of the North was that this should be maintained as a white man’s country. No country would ever be great or its people strong unless its manhood were prepared to do battle for the ideals of the race. In the Province he came from there were three great bodies that were capable of dealing with this class—the Municipalities, the mining industry, and the Government.

When a politician in one of the other Provinces tried to impress his audience with the idea of what Sodom and Gomorrah were like, he generally pointed to Johannesburg. Taking all their faults and all their failings, and admitting there was some justification for that statement, let them see what the Johannesburg Municipality had done. The Municipality affirmed the principle of employing white men, and gave these people 5s. a day. That was afterwards increased to 6s. a day, but eventually the Council came to the conclusion that these people could not be protected sufficiently unless they were given a living wage, and the Council decided that they should be paid a minimum wage of 7s. 6d. a day. The hon. member urged that the action of the Municipality was in every sense most praiseworthy. Let them see, he proceeded, what the mining industry had done. He regretted to say that at the present moment they were doing nothing. Some time ago, when depression was acute, men were found work underground loading up trucks at 5s. a day, with the possible maximum of 7s. 6d. a day, if they loaded up a maximum number of trucks. These men were not stalwarts, and he thought there were few cases where the maximum was reached. Many of the men drifted out of the mines, and he did not know of a single instance where members of this particular class were being employed at the present time to keep them off the streets and out of the gutter. He did not go as far as the hon. members on the cross-benches, but between their demand and nothing there was a big gulf. He wanted to bridge that gulf. Let them see what individuals who had controlled the industry had done. He must say that many of them had gone out of this country with millions. The late Mr. Beit and Sir Julius Wernher had made magnificent gifts to South Africa, and he thought they ought to value and appreciate them, but what had the majority done? Absolutely nothing. Referring to the generosity of the late Mr. Rhodes, Sir Aubrey recalled the fact that some years ago he was living in the same house in Rhodesia as Mr. Rhodes. There had been a great disturbance, and there were a number of people who had not re-established themselves on the mines or farms. The day after his arrival Mr. Rhodes was inundated by these men, who had arrived from every direction. Between ten o’clock and one Mr. Rhodes wrote out cheques to the amount of £11,000, and these were not loans but gifts. Those gentlemen who were so anxious to wear Mr. Rhodes’s mantle should remember it was not so much the size of the coat as the size of the pockets and the generous liberality with which he distributed their contents, that endeared him to the people of the Peninsula and Rhodesia, and they should go and do likewise.

He now came to the question of the responsibility of Government. The municipality of Johannesburg had accepted the principle of paying a minimum wage of 7s. 6d. per day, but the Government had affirmed the principle of the employment of white men, and then gave them a starvation wage. He held that the principle of beginning at the bottom was the right one. If they were going to build the country up they must begin with the poorer classes. Government had spent large sums in putting people on the land, but it had dealt only with the men who had failed at farming. Why should it not deal with those who had failed in mining or business enterprises? The Government should take the men who had shown their willingness to work and should give them the first chance of going back on to the land. For this purpose they could not have a better class than the men who were performing strenuous labour on the railways. Let him now approach the question from a strictly political point of view. An invisible hand pointed a warning, and unless they could read the writing on the wall then they were neither politicians nor statesmen. What the people in this country wanted to know in regard to the question of white and black was, was the policy to be one of courage or was it to be a continuation of the old methods of drift? He had no doubt that there were many hon. members who by sheer sophistry could make black appear white, but in times of stress sophistry was not going to carry a gun. (Cheers.) Three thousand men were a greater asset in the day of need than all the sophistry in the world. (Cheers.)

Self-sacrifice was the very essence of patriotism, and unless they could make some sacrifice to prevent these people degenerating to the level of white Kafirs then their vaunted patriotism was nothing but a hollow sham. If the Natal rebellion had assumed large proportions it was an open secret that the natives would have destroyed the railways in order to prevent the arrival of reinforcements. If the railway between Durban and Charlestown had been disconnected it would have been a very serious thing. It would be a very wise policy to employ at least 3,000 or 4,000 men of the poor white class on the railways, so that in case of need they could at once be despatched to districts largely inhabited by blacks. The former class might not be able to read or write very well, but they could all carry a gun and shoot. Proceeding, Sir Aubrey said that he had no doubt that his motion would come in for a considerable amount of criticism. To condemn the proposal, however, would be to display a most callous disregard for a number of people who were gradually being driven to an extremity from which they never could recover unless they had the assistance of their own class and the Government. (Hear, hear.) South Africa was doing more for the black people than any country in Europe ever succeeded in doing for its own people. South Africa offered every black mam labour, a living wage, and railway facilities.

These factors were more responsible for the black man’s political and social advancement than anything else. It was perfectly right that the black man should try and rise above a state of barbarism, and the Europeans should not stop his very natural aspiration in that direction. But if any body of public opinion used its time, influence, and finances to accelerate that process of uplifting regardless of the consequences to the thousands of white men, women, and children who were steadily degenerating, then it was guilty of the greatest treachery to the future dominance of the white race in South Africa. The records of the British and Dutch people showed that they were more capable of pertinacity and pugnacity than, perhaps, any other two nations in Europe. They possessed in an inestimable degree the faculty of setting their backs to the wall on occasion and defying all comers in defence of faith and liberty. “If,” said Sir Aubrey, in conclusion, “that heroism has gone from us, their direct descendants, then it is a very sorry day for South Africa. The test lies in the motion now before the House. Either we must champion the cause of the fallen, and so maintain the colour in all its purity, or by supineness and apathy gradually see the whole race painted yellow and black under our very eyes. If the virility of our race has gone from us, and we are no longer able to accomplish the task that lies so clearly before this young nation, then just so sure as that many of the descendents of the old Voortrekkers are struggling for an existence on the railways, so certain it is that some of our children’s children will descend to the same level, and the only word by which they will remember their ancestors will be by a curse.” (Cheers.)

seconded the motion.

wished to support the previous speaker as far as possible, and although many speeches were made simply for platform purposes in this regard, he knew that Sir Aubrey Woolls-Sampson meant every word he had said. He agreed as to what he had said in connection with the Johannesburg Municipality, but did not agree with his suggestions as to a minimum wage. Yet the pay these people received should be increased. It was true these men enjoyed other benefits, but if a local body like the Johannesburg Municipality could pay 5s. per day, then the Government ought to be able to pay more than 3s. 4d. These men, after all, were mostly their own people—they were not the sort of men who would strike. With the Labour party, who always wanted to make big wages bigger, he had no sympathy, but something should be done for the very poor classes of people. They had nothing to fear in the way of strikes from such men. He was not in fear of the Government giving such work to people who had their own ground, such people should remain on the property. Let the Government begin with a minimum of 5s., which was little enough He knew this was not a political agitation, and therefore supported the member for Braamfontein. It was the duty of the Government to do something, Every man could not be a farmer, and therefore they should place people who could be useful in other respects on the railways. He was pleased evening classes had been started for these railway workers; he hoped, in conclusion, the Government would accept the motion, and do something, not leave it at talking.

said the member for Braamfontein had spoilt an eloquent address by some very odious remarks. The people he had referred to included English as well as Dutch, and the hon. member should have realised that. He agreed with the sentiments expressed by Sir Aubrey Woolls-Sampson, and held that railway construction—railway extension—would prove the best solution of a very grave question. But the solution was not to be found in the payment of sweating wages. The pay of these people should be increased, and all of them should be concentrated on railway works, so as to bring them in the reach of the railway classes. Coloured labourers should be reserved for the agricultural or mining industries, and not be placed on these railway works. He would not say what wages these men should be paid—that was a matter to be dealt with by the Minister, though he thought they should begin at 5s. and go up to 8s. or 9s. per day. He hoped the motion would be accented.

said he had listened to the hon. member, who seemed to be very much in the clouds. He did not tell them what was the necessity for increasing this wage: all he said he wanted to do was to increase the status of these white people. Well he (the Minister) was doing his share of that himself. (Hear, hear.) Railway employees in Europe worked for very much less a day, and a man was often judged there by what he received, but that was not the fact in this country. He would like to know if his hon. friend the member for Piquetberg paid his white labourers 7s. 6d. a day. He knew that white labourers in the Colony were receiving in some cases only £1 per month. Take the case of these poor white labourers—he did not like to call them by that name—they began at 3s. 6d. a day, then they got 4s., and then 4s. 6d. and 5s. Besides that, they were given their quarters, and had special facilities on the railway. Schools had been erected for their children in Cape Town, Johannesburg, and Pretoria, and he was glad to say they were doing their best to become bilingualists. During the last five or six months they had promoted466 to pay beyond 5s. a day, and they had been promoting between 400 and 500 a year. He did not know if there were many people who paid white labourers more than 5s. a day, and, if they adopted this resolution he did not think they understood what it would cost the Railway Department. If they took the present number of persons receiving less than 7s. 6d. a day, and increased them according to the resolution, it would mean an increased expenditure of £360,000 a year. The number of white men employed on the railways was increasing and he hoped that it would continue to increase—in fact, he would like to see it increasing to such an extent that, in the main, the railway service would consist of white men, but these white men must be prepared to work at a rate something like they would receive outside. Here they were asked to settle the very important question of the minimum wage, and, surely, they must recognise that that was impossible then.

It being five minutes to 6 p.m.,

stated that in accordance with the Sessional Order adopted by the House on the 20th May, he would now adjourn the debate.

The debate was adjourned until to-morrow.

moved that the amended Vote No. 18, “Police,” amounting to £1,419,483, laid upon the table of the House on the 5th instant, be substituted in lieu of the Vote negatived.

The motion was agreed to.

said he desired to again bring the Minister’s attention to certain inspectors and sub-inspectors who were reduced in the year 1908. He had brought up this question before, and each time the Minister had given a sympathetic answer, and he thought the time had now arrived when these men should receive something more than sympathy. They were reduced—the inspectors to subinspectors, and the sub-inspectors to sergeants. The step was taken very suddenly, and the men were given very little chance of considering what was the best thing to be done in the circumstances. They had every right and hope to expect that this was a temporary arrangement. The letter sent to them said that this step was “solely owing to the necessity of drastic economy.” Nobody could say at the present moment that there was a necessity for drastic economy. The reason for which these men were retrenched having passed away, he put it to the Minister and to the House that it was a matter of common honesty and common justice in some way or other that these men should be restored to the positions from which they Were driven by drastic economy. He thought there was a way in which they could be restored to the ranks and salaries which they had enjoyed before. It might be possible, if the Minister of Justice could not find room for these men in their old ranks and at their old salaries in his own department to confer with the Minister of Defence with a view of finding employment for them in connection with the Defence Scheme. There was another point to which he wished to draw the attention of the Minister. He referred to a circular issued, he believed, from the Department of the Interior, but sent to officers of the Department of Justice, dealing with the fees of district surgeons for the examination of alleged lunatics who might afterwards be found not to be lunatics and for the examination of persons who had been assaulted. There seemed to be a certain amount of ambiguity about the circular, and it was thought that the fees would not be recoverable from the Government, but he believed it was intended that these fees should be recovered from another source rather than from the Department of Justice. He thought that in the interests of justice it was very desirable that the real position should be made clear.

said that some weeks ago he brought up the question of local labour being retained for the local market. He was glad to learn that since that time a very considerable tender had been accepted from a local firm. That was a step in the right direction, and should be extended throughout the Union.

referred to Mr. Slater, chief clerk of the C.I.D. in the Transvaal, who had resigned owing to the poor prospects of promotion. He appealed to the Minister to do all in his power to stop these resignations. Mr. Slater had been in the service a very long time and had been a good servant. As to the pay of the Transvaal police, that would be reduced under the Bill recently before the House. Three hundred men left the Transvaal police in 1908 receiving gratuities; many, however, stayed on in the hope that their position would be improved, but the reverse was the case. Last February the men were assured that their pay would not be reduced, but he feared that under the Bill the men’s position would adversely be affected. The men should be paid the present scale from 7s. to 9s. a day, which was small enough. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member failed to see why the mounted men should be paid less than the foot police. Their work was quite as hard and trying as that of the foot police. Was the small sum of £500 on the Estimates for compensation to men injured while in the execution of their duty a reasonable one? Great injustice had been done to men—who had long been in the service waiting for permission to marry—through new men having been given the married quarters. Another point was vacation leave—30 days a year, which were allowed to accumulate to not more than 120 days. That was felt to be inadequate to permit those who wished to visit their relatives in Great Britain, and he suggested that 180 days’ leave should be allowed to accumulate. He also wished the Minister would give serious attention to the regulation that stated that the pay of the men would cease during the time they were in hospital if injured in the discharge of their duties. They should be given at least half pay under those circumstances. In conclusion the hon. member said he hoped that adequate provision would be made for men in the service who were injured in the execution of their duties or for their wives and children in case death resulted from such injuries.

said he had failed to find out why a large number of coloured people and natives had not been put in the numerical column. (Laughter.) The answer he had received from the late Minister of Finance was that they were part time servants, and from the Minister of the Interior that these native constables were not on the establishment, but these reasons would not hold water. He did not know of any law which said that a man because of his colour was not on the establishment. If the reason was that, he hoped the hon. Minister would be brave enough to say so straight out.

drew attention to the enormous amount that had been put down on the Estimates for the policing of the country, outside the Transkei Territories. The total was nearly 1¼ million pounds. The strength of the force was 9,023; that was to say that outside the Transkei Territories they had more than 9,000 policemen, costing about 1¼ million pounds. Of these, 5,965 were European, and 3,058 were coloured policemen. There were stationed in the urban centres 3,989, and in the rural districts 5,034 policemen; the population in the urban centres was nearly 1½ millions, that was to say there was one policeman to every 367 of the population in the urban centres. In the rural centres there was a population of nearly 3,600,000 representing one policeman to every 714 of the rural population. Taking the entire population, there was one policeman to every 561 of the people. He wanted to draw the attention of the Minister to these figures, in the hope that during the recess he would take such steps as might appear to him to be necessary to have a full inquiry made as to whether the proportion of police compared with the population could not be placed on some practical basis. (Hear, hear.) At present it seemed to him that there was no distinct and definite basis. His hon. friend the member for Somerset East, who had interrupted, apparently wanted every other man in this country to be a policeman. He hoped the Minister would go into this question, either by departmental committee, or by taking other steps to see whether when the next Estimates were presented to the House he would be in a position to say that the proportion of policemen to the population was dealt with on some definite basis. It did seem that at any rate certain urban centres were over-policed, and in other districts they might be under-policed. He would suggest that the Minister should take a basis of one policeman for every 500 people in an urban district and one policeman for every 1,000 people in the rural districts. He was suggesting that just as a basis. The Minister would see how that would save expenditure to the taxpayers. He could then manage with 1,911 European policemen and 4,620 coloured policemen. The cost of these would be £525,588. Thus there would be a saving of some £700,000 a year. He granted that this estimate was rather high, but if the Minister would come down to the House and say he had arranged for this Union to be sufficiently policed, and to save the country £500,000 per annum, he (Mr. Currey) was sure it would be an enormous boon to the taxpayers of the country. If they went on in the present haphazard way, listening to clamour here and agitation there, and not having the thing on a scientific basis, it was impossible to say where they would eventually be dragged in the matter of expense. He hoped that next year the hon. Minister would be able to tell the House he had made a very large saving indeed, without increasing the risk respecting safety of life and property.

called attention to the cases of four inspectors and seven sub-inspectors, who during the depression in the Cape Province had been disrated, and hoped they would be reinstated again at a very early date. There was no reason on earth, he contended, why these men should not have been put back. He had heard it said, without disrespect to any of the other Provinces, and without any disrespect to his right hon. friend, that if this thing had happened at any other time, the gentleman who was in the position of his right hon. friend would have seen that they were replaced. It was owing to his action that these men were in their unfortunate position. Many of these men had married ladies of the land, and by virtue of the rank of their husbands, these ladies occupied a certain status in society, and to degrade their husbands to the rank of sergeant was felt by them very keenly, because it was unmerited.

That is a most cowardly action of my hon. friend.

Is that in order?

Very intemperate.

It has given offence.

I am sorry, but he gave me a great deal of offence. (Laughter.) I have been charged—

The hon. member has taken objection.

Am I to understand that if any member takes objection to any word that is said, the member is bound to withdraw?

It has given offence.

Every day one gives offence. (Laughter.) The question is, is it a Parliamentary word?

No, it is not.

Is it Parliamentary or not? (Cries of “Order.”) If I am not within my rights—

No, it is not Parliamentary.

It is my ruling.

Do you rule that it is unparliamentary? Is that your ruling?

Yes.

Very well, then. I shall sit down. (Laughter.)

drew attention to some of the sergeants in Natal who were disrated after being promoted at the close of the rebellion in 1906. This had a very considerable effect on the police, but he was glad to say that they had loyally performed their duties to the province since going back to their original rank. Some few had been re-promoted, but there were still some remaining, and he would like the Minister to look into the matter and see what could be done. At the same time he would like to refer to the question of the finger print experts, not to any one in particular, but to the staff generally. This was a most delicate and most important work that they were engaged in, and it did not seem to have had the recognition that it deserved.

hoped the Minister would look into the matter. Many of these men had given long years of service to the country. He hoped the Minister would endeavour to see whether it was not possible to restore them to their rank prior to retrenchment. He did not think, however, that the hon. member for Queenstown was speaking for the police when he attacked the right hon. the member for Victoria West. The men accepted the position because they realised that it could not be helped.

said he had received a letter from the Transvaal, to the effect that the police were having their salaries reduced. This was not right and those men on whom the safety of life and property depended should not have their emoluments reduced. He held that they were as good as any other Civil Servants, and emphasised that they only wanted good men, men of character, in the police force. Inspectors’ salaries had been increased, and he thought the constables also should be treated in like manner.

said the life of a policeman was by no means an easy one. Policemen had to be men of good character and they should be properly paid. If they got good men they would be able to do with smaller numbers, therefore he hoped the Minister would not reduce the salaries.

said the police in the rural districts should be increased rather than reduced, and he hoped the Minister would not agree with the suggestion of the hon. member for George.

said he desired to call the attention of the Minister to two small matters. They were small matters except to the people concerned. He referred to the case of a man named Reeder, who was robbed of 70 head of cattle. These cattle were traced into the Protectorate, they were known to be in the hands of the natives. Some of them had been destroyed, and the owner was unable to get them back. He knew it was a very difficult matter to get these cattle back, but it was a very serious matter indeed for this man to lose £1,000 worth of stock in this way. He thought something should be done to protect the farmers along the border. He also wished to refer to the case of a constable named Hill, who was stationed in a country district. He was retrenched on the ground of failing health—he was declared medically unfit. He had accumulated during ten years’ service, 119 days’ leave, but when he asked for that leave or for pay in lieu of the leave, he was unable to get anything. He (Sir Percy) considered that this was a very hard case indeed. Hill’s health was impaired in the execution of his duty; he had saved up 119 days’ leave, but could not get it, The reply from the Department was unfavourable. His dismissal was dated back to a certain day in November, which made his leave impossible.

said that he knew nothing of the case of Hill, but he would go into it. There were many hard cases of men being declared medically unfit. Hill’s case was one of those unfortunate cases where they found that the regulations said such and such a thing must be done, and it was impossible for the Department of Justice or the Treasury to do anything else. The Department of Justice endeavoured to do what it could in the matter, but the law advisers said that he was not entitled to his leave. He felt very sorry for these cases, and he might say that his department tried to do its best to get these men odd jobs. With regard to Hill’s case, if anything could be done, he would see that it was done.

He was dealt with according to law, but unfortunately it is a very hard case.

That is so. Proceeding, he said that with regard to the question of cattle-stealing on the border of Bechuanaland, arrangements were made a fortnight or three weeks ago to minimise the possibility of thefts occurring in the future.

Will you try to get some compensation for this man?

said that during the regime of his predecessor everything possible was done in the matter.

With regard to the question raised by the hon. member for Barkly (Dr. Watkins) and the hon. member for Queenstown (Sir Bisset Berry) as to officers who were reduced in rank, the hon. member for Barkly seemed to be very angry with him, but he thought he would be even more angry if he followed his advice in all other cases of a similar nature. He certainly would not vote for the money.

Yes, I would in order to see justice done.

I am sure he would stop short of these officers. Proceeding, he said he wanted to point out that these officers were not so badly dealt with as the hon. member would make the House believe. In fact, they were liberally dealt with in the circumstances. Instead of being retrenched, the option was given to them, “If you want to stay, you can; but you must be satisfied with reduced rank.” In the circumstances he did not see what more they could have expected. It was far better than being retrenched as the present Government had been retrenching. He did not think that they had anything to complain of. Hon. members seemed to be rather angry because he had not taken back these men, but it was impossible to take them on until vacancies occurred. Two or three had been reinstated, and more would be taken back as vacancies occurred. When the Defence Force came into operation a number of officers would be taken from the police for the force, and it was his intention to fill the vacancies by the men who had been retrenched. The hon. member for Von Brandis had referred to the resignation of the officer Slater, and he did not think that he was quite fair in saying that that officer had resigned because others had been put over him. He knew nothing about the officer, except the mere fact of his resignation, and that it was due to the fact that he had a far better outside offer. Certainly no complaint had come to him. With regard to the question of pay, that was a matter for next year’s Estimates, but the hon. member would see that nothing was taken away from the men. As to the question on the item of injuries, he wished to point out that it referred to injuries to the public. He was at present dealing with the question of the marriage strength, and he was sure that the police would find that next year they had nothing to complain of. He had gone into the matter of vacation leave, and he must say that the Department was far more liberal than they were in other parts. Continuing, he said that his hon. friend the member for Tembuland seemed to be very angry with him, for the reason that natives did not appear in the numerical column. Well, he would like to explain to his hon. friend that if that was anybody’s fault, it was the fault of the Treasury. The Treasury issued instructions that the work should be done in this way, and that was the reason why such a course had been followed. He would look into the matters which had been mentioned by the hon. member for Klip River, and he promised that the men concerned would receive any consideration which might be their due. The hon. member for George had raised a very important point, and he would say that he had already discussed this question with the Commissioner of Police. At the present time that gentleman was collecting information from other countries, notably, Australia, where it was a principle in vogue, and when that information came to hand the whole question would be considered and settled. The point which had been raised by the hon. member for Middelburg would also receive consideration.

The new vote was agreed to.

moved: That the amended vote No. 19, “Prisons and Reformatories,” as reduced, amounting to £487,463, laid upon the table of the House on the 7th instant, be substituted in lieu of the vote negatived.

moved that the amount set down for the Assistant Director of Prisons be reduced by £100. He did so, he said, for the purpose of drawing attention to some very horrible facts that had been brought to his notice with regard to the condition of some of our gaols. He had received a letter on the subject, and he felt sure that if he were to read that letter, the contents would arouse the indignation of everybody. This was a case where coloured people, with revolting diseases, had been placed in cells with other prisoners, and lunatics herded up without those necessities that were required in a way which reflected little credit on the establishment. He did not want to make an attack on the Minister, because he knew that the Minister had at heart the humane treatment of prisoners, but he did earnestly beg him to look into this matter without delay. He (the speaker) did not think the Minister actually knew what was going on. He knew the Minister had a Prisons Board and he thought that it should be made to inspect the gaols. There should be surprise visits, because if the prison people knew that inspectors were coming, the place was generally in tip-top condition—swept and garnished. It was a revolting business, and he did not think it would have been possible to find such a revolting state of affairs in this country. About twenty years ago they had big prison scandals in the Cape, and a Magistrate was suspended on that very account. There was no charge of maltreatment in this instance; prisoners might be very dreadful people, but that was not the sort of punishment which they wished to give them.

said that he was very much surprised at the statement which had been made by the hon. member for Victoria West. He was exceedingly glad that the hon. member had brought the matter to his attention, but he must say that up to that moment he honestly thought that no institutions in that country were being run as efficiently as the prisons. He would be glad if the hon. member would give him all the information, so that he might go into the matter. He must say that if he found a magistrate at fault, he would not be slow in following the good example which, as the right hon. gentleman had said, was set in the Cape some years back. Continuing, he said that unless they had the single-cell system, they would always be subject to this heaping-up of prisoners He was surprised at what ms hon. friend had said about lunatics, seeing the legislation that was passed last year to the effect that lunatics must not be placed in prisons with other prisoners unless under the most extraordinary conditions.

said that he would furnish the Minister with the information which he had received He would point out that it had come from an official source, and he hoped that the official concerned would not be made to suffer.

Oh, no!

moved, on page 155, to reduce the amount by £900, from the item A.3,

“Stores—Standard Stock,” £1,000.

said he was dealing with the matter.

then proceeded to deal with the question of gentlemen serving on the Prisons Boards, and drew attention to the recommendations of the Public Accounts Committee. He referred to the payment of these members.

I am dealing with that.

asked whether it was not possible to get gentlemen who would serve gratuitously. He had a letter from a gentleman, with 34 years’ service, who was willing to serve. The speaker also referred to the amount of £3,900 set down for materials for buildings erected by prison labour, and pointed out that there was a recommendation by the Public Accounts Committee that the vote should not be split up, but that the Public Works Department should supply the materials. Then he would like some information with regard to the industrial schools at George and Paarl. When would they be ready, and how many would each institution accommodate? He should like some information as to when the boys’ school at George and the girls’ school at Paarl were likely to be ready.

said that he wanted to draw attention to a peculiarly scandalous case such as had been mentioned by the right hon. the member for Victoria West. He referred to the lock-up cells at Pinetown (Natal). There they had two small cells, each about 10 feet square, with a mud floor and an iron roof. Prisoners had to spend two nights and a day in those cells before they were tried. The conditions were bad in the extreme. He thought that if Mr. Roos would pay a little of his kind attention to the state of affairs in the Pinetown lock-up it would be greatly to the credit of his department.

said that he would like to again ask whether the Government intended to continue the policy of having the office of Director of Prisons and Secretary of the Department of Justice combined in the same person? He believed that that really was an unworkable system. They had tried it in the Transvaal, and there it was found impossible for one man to be Secretary of the Law Department and Director of Prisons, and now they had the whole department of the prisons of the Union combined with the position of Secretary of the Department of Justice, and he believed that that really was more of a position than one man could fill. He saw that an Assistant Director of Prisons had been appointed at a salary of £1,000 a year, but at the same time there was a reduction in the chief clerks by one. He was perfectly well aware that the present occupant of the post of Secretary of Justice and Director of Prisons was a man who had interested himself in prison matters, and a man who, he thought, had done a great deal for prison administration in the Transvaal, but one man could not carry on the work of being Director of Prisons and Secretary of the Department of Justice if he were going to give that detailed attention to prison administration which the Director of Prisons should give.

said that, with regard to the matter to which attention had been drawn by the right hon. the member for Victoria West, his (Mr. Heatlie’s) notice had also been drawn to it, and he must say that, whatever the right hon. gentleman had said he could fully bear out. The conditions were certainly most revolting, but he did not think that the blame was to be attached to the Minister of Justice alone or to his Department entirely, because they had their gaols used for the accommodation of lunatics, and at times the gaol hospitals were being used for the accommodation of paupers.

said a good many gaols had been closed in the Cape. Why was that? Had any of them been reopened? Very great changes had also been made amongst the gaolers and matrons. He had studied the return on this subject and when he went to the Minister’s department in regard to the matter he was told that a reorganisation was taking place and that the principal reasons for determining which gaolers should be retired were age and inefficiency. But gaolers of 50 or 55 would find great difficulty in obtaining fresh employment and should have been allowed to go on until they had reached the pension age. The gaolers at Cofimvaba, Keutani and Nqamakwe had been retired, and the hon. member directed particular attention to these cases. The late gaoler at Kentani had capital testimonials, and it would seem that he had given the utmost satisfaction. He was only 40 years of age, and it appeared that a great injustice had been done him in dispensing with his services. He could quote many other cases, but that would suffice. He wanted to ask the Minister also whether it was correct that he had given instructions that no coloured prisoner, who was a skilled worker, was to be allowed to work at his particular industry, as the white prisoners were, or to receive a part portion of the sums earned by him. It was not right that these coloured prisoners should be shut out, if it were so, and he would be glad to hear if there were any such regulation.

said there was a great improvement in the prison system in this country, but it appeared to him that their gaols nowadays were getting too much like hotels, and, as a matter of fact, people no longer feared going to prison. That was a wrong state of affairs. People sent to prison should really do hard labour, and the cane should be used a little more. He knew that in one case a man had been sentenced to six months’ hard labour for selling liquor. When the man came out he had a testimonial from the director of the gaol giving him a good conduct and stating that he could return when he liked. (Laughter.)

drew attention to the conditions of labour of the warders in Natal. The position there, he said, had changed very much for the worse since Union. There had been a great increase in the hours of duty. Formerly warders worked eight hours a day or night, and, if outside, 10¾ hours, with Saturday afternoon and Sundays off. Since Union they had to work, if on night duty, 12 to 14 hours, and on days, inside duty, 10½ hours, outside, 11 hours, and had to work three Sundays out of four. Hon. members would see that the change had been considerably for the worse. There had been no economy effected. If the effect had been that fewer men had been employed, there would have been something to say for it—though he would not agree to that altogether—but the number was at the same strength. The only effect had been that the men had been called upon to work longer hours; probably it was to bring them into line with the conditions prevailing in the other Provinces. The work of a warder was very responsible and he had to be constantly on the alert, and a slight lapse might mean his dismissal. He hoped the hon. Minister would take into consideration the question of giving these men more rest by reducing the excessively long hours now worked, and he would then be able to get a better class of men.

asked information on the item on vote C, material for industries, £6,000. He would like to know what the prisoners were actually making and whether the articles were sold. He also desired information with regard to the contribution to the Prisoners’ Aid Societies of £3,000, being of opinion that these Societies, were doing excellent work and that the grant should be increased next year. He would also direct the Minister’s attention to a circular which was sent out to the Magistrates with reference to the historical register of prisoners, that in future native prisoners were not to be asked whether they had served in the war, but this question was still to be asked from Europeans. The Minister would recollect that he stated in another place that it would be extremely foolish to ask such a question, but he had then forgotten that he himself had caused a circular to be issued that Europeans must still answer that question. The hon. Minister was of opinion that it was a foolish and needless question to put.

drew the attention of the Minister to the system that prevailed in some towns of marching prisoners to and from the Courts through the streets. These prisoners were usually handcuffed, and if there was anything that could harden and embitter a man it was this. He hoped the Minister would try and find some remedy for such a state of affairs.

said he agreed with the hon. member for Vrededorp, and complained that prisoners, instead of doing hard labour, were used to work in gardens. Municipalities, instead of getting the labour of prisoners for nothing, now had to pay for them. It was a luxury for prisoners to go to gaol, and this was a wrong state of affairs. Why not set them to real work on the roads?

said that with regard to the question of his hon. friend the member for Cape Town, the Prisons’ Board, the hon. member would see, would have to travel from home; they had to go to other centres and it was impossible for them to do so without some remuneration. With regard to the query of the hon. member for Fordsburg, he must say without hesitation that he would not undertake to fill up that position. Personally, he thought that nobody could be got who was more capable of bringing to completion the work undertaken with regard to prisons than the permanent head of his Department. He felt that it would be a pity at this moment to put this work into the hands of another man, and so stop the progressive, constructive work which had been going on for the last three years. The hon. member for Tembuland had raised a question regarding gaolers, and had asked for some information regarding the retention of some, and the discharge of others. Unfortunately, he was unable to give the details at the moment.

With regard to the question of the instruction of natives in gaols, the policy of his Department was to keep an eye on the requirements of the locality, in order that the prisoners might be useful when they came out. There was no hard and fast rule. The hon. member for Tembuland was not correct when he stated that no trades were taught. In some parts in the Cradock district, for instance, trades were actually being taught at the present moment. With regard to the question raised by the hon. member for Commissioner-street, he wished to say that there was a difficulty in regard to an eight hours’ day for gaolers all over the world. It was impossible to have an eight hours’ day for warders. The hon. member for Von Brandis had asked what was the meaning of the item “material for Industries,” and he wished to point out to him that the material referred to was cloth for the making of gaolers’ clothes, and also material for the making of baskets, and so on. It was quite true that European prisoners were asked if they had served in the war, and the reason for asking them such a question was in order to find out what influence war had upon the morals of the people. He would not say much as to the gaols being too good. No doubt hon. members would keep out of them. (Laughter.) Everyone would admit that there had been great improvements, but he could not agree that they were too good, except perhaps for the absolute criminals. As to the question raised by the hon. member for Woodstock, he was sorry that it had escaped his memory, but he promised not to forget it again.

made an inquiry with regard to inebriate homes.

said he believed that one such institution for whites and blacks was ready to be occupied.

Mr. Merriman’s amendment was negatived.

Mr. Jagger’s amendment was agreed to.

moved that the amount set down for administration be reduced by 50, item “Under-Secretary of Mines.” He did so, he said, for the purpose of drawing the attention of the Government to the bewaarplaatsen question, and attempting to get a declaration of policy from the Government on the point Since 1891 attempts had been made to get a definite settlement of the question, and he thought the time had arrived for the Government to make a declaration. Up to recently the revenue that had accrued from this source had been treated as ordinary revenue by the Government, and they took it that such had been the case, for the reason that the Minister of Finance made no reference to the matter in his Budget speeches of last year or the current session. He contended that this was in direct contravention to the provisions of section 53 of the Transvaal Act of 1908, which directed that the money should be paid into a special fund, until some special arrangement was made by Parliament. The hon. member went on to refer in detail to the findings of the Transvaal Commission, which was appointed in 1909, and which investigated the matter from the year 1889. He went on to say that the Commission recommended clearly that freehold owners were entitled to 50 per cent. of the proceeds of these undermining rights. A lot of money had already been invested in these mining rights; his information went something like half a million. This report was brought in on February 26, 1910, but nothing had been done up to the present time. The moneys were beginning to accrue now, and up to quite recently were appropriated by the Government of the day as ordinary revenue.</p>

He might state that the Public Accounts Committee had also gone into this matter, and only on Saturday last a report from this committee was laid on the table, in which they stated that they had considered the question of the bewaarplaatsen, and they understood from the late Minister of Finance that he had given directions that all receipts since the date of Union in respect of the disposal of certain revenues referred to in section 53 of the Transvaal Act of 1908 should be carried to a separate account of the Exchequer, and set aside pending the direction of Parliament. The committee added that they agreed that that was the correct course, and they recommended that the question of the disposal of such proceeds be submitted to Parliament for its decision without undue delay. That resolution was agreed to unanimously. What he wanted to draw attention to was this, that the Government should take action at the earliest possible moment. He was perfectly well aware that they were just at the end of the session and that nothing could be done now, but he wanted an assurance from the Minister that at an early date next session he would introduce legislation dealing with this matter. It was not fair to the shareholders; they had already got about £172,000 in the Treasury, half of which these people claimed. Whether Parliament would allocate half of that was quite another question At the present time these people were being done out of the interest on their money. In the interests of justice, in the interests of a permanent settlement, and in the interests of the credit of the country, they ought to come to some definite settlement of this vexed question. (Hear, hear.)