from F. W. Bampton.

announced that the Governor-General, having been informed of the provisions of clauses 1 and 2 of the Transvaal and Orange Free State Land Settlements Amendment Bill, gives his consent that, as far as His Majesty’s interest is concerned, the House may do therein as it shall think fit.

Return, showing particulars of special warrants, issued by the Governor-General from 27th April to 26th May, 1912; Return of all surcharges remitted by the Minister of Finance, 27th February, 1912, to 26th May, 1912.

These Returns were referred to the Select Committee on Public Accounts.

moved: The Hon. George Maydon having by writing under his hand addressed to the Speaker resigned his seat as a member of the House of Assembly, this House, in terms of section 36 of the Natal Constitution Act of 1893, declares that a vacancy has occurred in the representation of the electoral division of Durban (Greyville).

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved in line 36, to omit “was” and to substitute “has been”.

seconded.

Agreed to.

In clause 30,

moved in line 2 of new sub-section (3) to omit “obtain from the co-operative society or societies on whose behalf the guarantee is given” and to substitute “be satisfied that the members of the co-operative society or societies on whose behalf the guarantee is given are capable of themselves producing and supplying the article contracted to be supplied and shall obtain from the said society or societies”.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved to omit the Fourth Schedule and to substitute the following: “Fourth Schedule. —Scale of application fees to be paid by applicants in any event, and to accompany the application.—On application for an advance not exceeding £500, 10s.; on application for an advance exceeding £500 and not exceeding £1,000, 15s.; on application for an advance exceeding £1,000, and not exceeding £1,500, £1; on application for an advance exceeding £1,500, and not exceeding £2,000, £1 10s.; on application for an advance exceeding £2,000, and not exceeding £3,000, £2; on application for an advance exceeding £3,000, for every £1,000 or fraction thereof, 15s.”

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved that the Bill be now read a third time.

Agreed to.

The Bill was read a third time.

moved that the amendments be now considered.

Agreed to.

put the amendments in clauses 5, 6, 7, 15, 16, 18, 23, 24, and 43, which were agreed to.

moved that the amendments be now considered.

Agreed to.

On new clause 1,

moved on page 2, lines 48 and 50, after “of any” to omit “such”; and on page 4, line 9, after “salary” to insert “and local allowance (if any and for so long as such judge shall reside in such place as to which the said allowance shall apply).” He said that when this section was before the House on the last occasion, it was pointed out by the hon. member for Cape Town, Harbour, and other members, that it was not advisable that a local allowance, temporarily granted to judges residing in Bloemfontein, the Transvaal, and Griqualand West, should be taken away after having once been granted. If this allowance could be taken away, it would put a judge under the influence of the Government in office for the time being. At the same time, it was pointed out that it was necessary to have the local allowance taken away in the case of a judge who ceased to reside in the district for which the local allowance was granted.

seconded.

said that to carry out what the Minister had promised, and what he had to a great extent carried out, it would be necessary to delete certain other words. For instance, in line 7, the words “for so long as the Governor-General may determine,” appeared; these should come out. The committee had agreed that there should be a local allowance of £250, and it should not be within the power of the Governor-General to alter that. He moved that the words be deleted. He wished to point out to the Minister also that the words “not exceeding” appeared before the sum of £250. That meant that the Governor-General might make a judge an allowance of only £1, but the idea was that the judge should have an allowance of £250, and that he should not be placed in the power of the Governor-General. He moved that the words “not exceeding” be deleted, and “of” substituted.

seconded.

said that he could not accept the amendment. The words which the hon. member for Cape Town, Harbour, proposed to delete were absolutely necessary.

said that if the object of the Minister were to make the judges quite independent of the Government, the words should be deleted.

The amendments proposed by the Minister of Justice were agreed to.

The amendments proposed by Sir Henry Juta were negatived.

On clause 4,

moved that all the words from “judge,” in line 22, to the end of the clause, be deleted. He said that the words were quite unnecessary.

seconded.

said he was prepared to accept the amendment.

The amendment was agreed to.

On new clause 6,

moved in line 30, to omit “passing” and to substitute “commencement”; in line 34, to omit “of South Africa”; in line 35, to omit “such”; in line 36, to omit “such” and to substitute “the”, and to add at the end “upon a pension calculated in accordance with the provisions of section 4.”

seconded.

Agreed to.

The new provisos in the sub-sections (a) and (c) were negatived.

moved after sub-section (c) to insert the following proviso, viz.: “Provided that every regulation made under paragraph (a) or (c) shall be of force and effect unless and until during the session in which it is laid upon the tables of both Houses of Parliament as provided by law, both Houses shall by resolution disapprove of the terms thereof”; in line 64, before “regulations” to omit “the” and to substitute “all.”

seconded.

moved after “paragraph (a)” to insert “or (b).”

seconded.

Agreed to.

The amendment as amended was agreed to.

The remaining amendments having been agreed to,

The Bill was ordered to be read a third time on Wednesday.

moved that the amendments be now considered.

Agreed to.

put the amendment in sub-section (3) of clause 6.

moved as an amendment in line 35, before “third” to insert “the”.

seconded.

Agreed to.

The amendment as amended was agreed to.

put the amendment in clause 18.

moved as an amendment in line 21, after “along” to insert “the”.

seconded.

Agreed to.

The amendment as amended was agreed to.

On clause 22,

moved in line 20, after “court” to omit “if” and to substitute “in”.

seconded.

Agreed to.

put the new clause 27,

moved in line 34, after “use and if” to insert “so”.

seconded.

Agreed to.

The new clause as amended was agreed to.

put the amendments in clause 28.

moved in lines 43, 45 and 48, to omit the words “painted white”. He contended that this clause as it stood would only mean unnecessary trouble and expense to farmers.

seconded.

supported the amendment on similar grounds. In the Free State, he added, gates were usually easily visible.

moved to alter the words “recognised public roads” to “main, district, or divisional”. He expressed the opinion that the clause as it stood was not at all clear.

seconded.

moved in lines 64 and 65 to omit “local authority makes lawful provision prohibiting” and to substitute “road authority lawfully provides”.

seconded.

in refusing to accept Mr. Cronje’s amendment said Divisional Council roads were not known in the Free State, and it would cause confusion to start this new departure here.

Mr. Cronje’s amendment was negatived.

put the question that the words “painted white” proposed by Mr. Serfontein to be omitted stand part of the clause, and declared the question to be affirmed.

called for a division, which resulted as follows:

moved as an amendment in sub-section (2), line (1), after “members” to insert “not being related to any of the parties”.

seconded.

Agreed to.

The new schedule as amended was agreed to.

On clause 2,

moved in line 39, to add at the end of the interpretation of term “holding,” “but shall not include any erf, stand or lot, situate within a municipality, borough or proclaimed town, village or township”. He said it was never intended that a man should go to the Land Bank in order to get the necessary funds to enclose an erf located in a town or Divisional Council area.

seconded.

said it was possible that a landowner had 14 morgen within a municipal area, and he did not see why such a man should be unable to obtain money from the Land Bank. He knew of farms of that character.

The amendment was agreed to.

The remaining amendments having been agreed to,

The Bill was ordered to be read a third time on Wednesday.

resumed the debate on the motion for the second reading of the Immigrants’ Restriction Bill, and said that when the debate was adjourned he was dealing with certain amendments which had been made in the measure before the House as compared with the Bill that was placed before them last session. There were certain things in the old Bill with which hon. members from the Free State, and supporters of the Government, were not in accord, and it was due to the pressure that had been brought to bear on the Minister that the Bill got lower and lower on the Order paper last year and was finally dropped. The Free State was opposed to the introduction of Asiatics, but he did not think that the amendment which the Minister had decided upon and placed in the measure would satisfy those who had objected on the last occasion.

The Minister gave away his whole case for the Bill when he suggested that they might well leave the present law in the Free State on the Statute-book. The. Minister was on the horns of a dilemma, because the Statute in the Free State did not effect a settlement with the Indian community, and if he suggested repealing that Statute the whole body of public opinion in the Free State would be against the Bill. The fact of the matter was the Minister was trying to do too much; he was trying to please everybody, and was going to please nobody, either from the point of view of the white immigrants or the Asiatic immigrants. The position was going to be very much what it was at the present time. He hoped that the members of the Free State would express their opinion on the matter. If the Statute in the Free State was to remain then the whole case for the agreement with the Imperial Government fell to the ground. Proceeding, he pointed out that under the Bill an immigrant might be perfectly fit physically, he might have the necessary amount of money, he might be a respectable man, he might intend starting some industry in this country, and there might be no objection to him at all, yet the Immigration Officer could say to him, “Can you write Chinese?” The immigrant had to submit to a dictation test. He had to write 50 words in a language selected by the Immigration Officer. He had to fill in a form and indicate the languages he knew. He might state that he knew English, German, and French, and the Immigration Officer could say to him: “Very well, then, write out 50 words in Chinese.” When the Bill was before the House on the last occasion the Minister said that he was prepared to have the word “Minister” inserted in place of the words “’Immigration Officer.” Well, he had not carried that out, in fact, the Minister did not leave himself even nominally responsible. An immigrant had to satisfy the Immigration Officer and not the Minister. The Minister might say, “That is all very well; you have got an exactly similar clause in Australia, and the Imperial Government has asked us to adopt that clause.” He (the speaker) wished to point out that this clause was not the same as the one in operation in Australia. He had said so on a previous occasion, and he was sorry to have to say so again. The Minister had disregarded what he called the Parliamentary safeguards of the Act of 1905. As a result of section 5, if nothing was done in Australia, the old practice in regard to language remained. The old practice was exactly as it was in this country—European language. In fact, that seemed to be world-wide, as it had certainly been universal in South Africa up to the present time. The Minister, when the Bill was before the House last session, said that if he (Mr. Alexander) wanted a safeguard he could have it. Well, here was the Bill, and they had not got the safeguard. He did not know whether the Minister, by not putting it in the Bill, indicated that he was not prepared to put the safeguard in now. This was a matter that was seriously affecting large numbers of people in South Africa. So strongly, as a matter of honour, was this felt amongst the Jewish community that they did not want to arrive at the state of affairs which prevailed in this Colony before 1905, by which the language spoken by many of them should be debarred by the arbitrary will of an officer. They got a clause put in that Bill and also in the Bill of 1907 in the Transvaal to the same effect. It was open to the Immigration Officer under the present Bill to say to these people: “I am not going to dictate to you in your own language, Yiddish.” Meetings had been held at various centres throughout the country in support of some safeguard being made in the direction he had indicated. The community did not want it to be in the power of any particular individual to say that Yiddish should be included one day and another day that it should not. They wanted to have something definite, so that these questions should not be opened again and the old state of affairs brought back again. There was another point in reference to Australia that he wanted to bring under the notice of the Minister. In Australia matters of immigration were dealt with by the Central Parliament, so that it would not be possible for the States to pass different immigration laws. Once a man was admitted into Australia he could move about the whole country, but in South Africa the state of things was quite different, because if a man were admitted into one part he could not move about into other parts without the permission of the Immigration Officer. It was definitely laid down by Statute that a person born in South Africa was exempted from this Bill subject to section 7, but section 7 said that they could not move from one Province to another without getting the permission of the Immigration Officer. It was all very well to say that he would not do it, but they were giving him the power to do it; in fact, it seemed to him that they would have to introduce the Russian passport system so as to enable a man to move from one Province to another.

The Minister might say “If you have an appeal what more do you want?” But one could appeal on a point of law or fact only, and not on a matter of sentiment. If they went to the Appeal Board and said, “Here is a decent, respectable, well-known man who is prevented from landing,” the Board would not be able to interfere, because it could only carry out the law, under which the officer was an autocrat. Hence if they left in that very autocratic provision and still had an Appeal Board, they would not be in a very much better position than if they had no Appeal Board. There was a very large number of exemptions in the Canadian and other regulations which the Minister had not introduced in his Bill: if he had done so possibly a good deal of heartburning might have been saved, and the Bill might not be looked upon with the same degree of displeasure as it was to-day. The correspondence laid before the British Parliament in December, 1910, between the Transvaal and Lord Crewe, had certainly impressed him (Mr. Alexander) very much. A firm stand was taken up by the Minister as Colonial Secretary of the Transvaal, a stand in which the Minister would be very much supported if he came to the Union Parliament with a similar proposal. At the time the correspondence took place a passive resistance movement was in progress in the Transvaal, but that had passed away, and one could not understand the complete somersault the Minister had made in regard to this matter. Anyone who had any experience of the working of the Immigration Law at the ports knew that very few Asiatics could satisfy the education test. The Minister in his own language had fallen from grace, because in the words he had used in the correspondence with the British Government he had done something which was immoral and dishonest. He thought the Minister was ashamed of having gone back on that position. (A MINISTERIAL MEMBER: “Oh, no.”)There was another point. He (Mr. Alexander) was told that in the present administration of the Immigration Law some of the people who were classed as Asiatics were not necessarily Asiatics at all—some were the subjects of Turkey, and under the Treaty between Great Britain and Turkey, signed in 1809, the subjects of those two Powers were allowed to pass from one country to the other. The chief difficulty, however, in regard to this Bill was that the public of South Africa was not satisfied with the administration of the Immigration Department. If the public had a guarantee that an improvement would be effected there would not have been so much fear in regard to the passing of the present Bill. He did not understand the Minister’s sympathy. The Minister had got all the power that was necessary, but now he was seeking autocratic powers to deal with these Asiatics. He was desirous of giving the Minister the fullest information, and in doing that he would like to tell them where he got it from. The information that he would supply he received from the Union-Castle Co., and he would like to say this: that it was with very great difficulty that he got them to allow him to use their name. It was with very great reluctance that they allowed him to do so, and only after he had explained to them that it would be impossible for him to use the information unless this permission were granted. In the public interest, therefore, they gave him the necessary permission. The hon. member then went on to quote certain instances where immigrants had been refused permission to enter the country to show that the assurances given to the House by the Minister were not carried out by the Immigration officials. He also referred to cases where, so far as his information went, religious prejudice was the only actuating ground which led to the exclusion of immigrants. These immigrants were members of the sect known as the Latter-Day Saints.

Mormons.

I thought the Minister would say that. I am very glad he has said so, because I hope to convert him, not to Mormonism, the tenets of which I don’t know, but to take a sane and practical view of this matter. Proceeding, he asked: “Did the Minister maintain that this section was not entitled to the same treatment as any other Christian sect?” The Minister laughed, but it was no laughing matter, because certain injustice had been done to very respectable men.

Were they going to allow, did the Minister propose to allow, the Immigration Officer to go down to the Docks and say: “This particular Christian sect has got certain religious views and must go out. This one has got good views and may come in.” The hon. member went on to quote from certain documents in regard to the three members of the Latter Day Saints who had been refused admission, and he mentioned that he was consulted in regard to this particular case, and pointed out to them that there was nothing to be done as far as the law was concerned, seeing that they were not British subjects. The Minister, Mr. Alexander went on to say, might be able to give another reason, but his own opinion was that the sole reason for the exclusion of these people was because they belonged to this particular sect that the Immigration Officer did not approve of. Mr. Alexander next dealt with the case of a boy called Rosen, whose father, a naturalised subject, was residing in the Transvaal. The boy wanted to go to the Transvaal to join his father, but the Immigration Officer refused permission to land, and a rule nisi was obtained in the Supreme Court calling upon the Immigration Officer to show cause why he should not be restrained from deporting the petitioner. Mr. Alexander quoted the text of a letter written by Messrs. Friedlander, the petitioner’s attorneys, setting out the circumstances of the case, with a view of showing that, although it was clearly intended that the Immigration Officer should show cause why he should not allow the boy to land, it was not until an amended order of the Judge in Chambers had been obtained that matters were adjusted, just on the point of the steamer’s departure.

It was things like that which made one’s blood boil at the suggestion in the Bill that the Minister should take to himself autocratic powers not only so far as aliens were concerned, but to extend those powers to British subjects. Since the date of Union the legal costs incurred in the administration of the Immigration Act amounted to £1,133, the amount represented by cases in which the Department was unsuccessful being £682. In other words, the Department was unsuccessful in 60 per cent. of its cases. The chief person who would have the main responsibility for the administration of the immigration laws in Cape Town would be the Chief Immigration Officer—a gentleman who had been found guilty of contempt of Court. If the Minister was going to allow officers to commit contempt of Court and was then going to pay their costs, what security had the public got? It was true the sum was a very small one, but it was not the amount involved, but the principle which was concerned. It was not a technical point, but the Immigration Officer put a technical aspect on it. He hoped the Minister would not think that because the person concerned might be an Indian that they ought not to look into it. It would be deplorable if they at any time thought that they could strain the law because of an immigrant’s nationality. (Hear, hear.) Proceeding, the hon. member quoted the case of the Indian who, having been domiciled in this country, left it, and then tried to re-enter it. His entry was opposed, and an order was granted by the Supreme Court restraining him from entering. An appeal was made, and the House would be surprised to hear that, in spite of the order of the Court, the man was sent away. An order of Court had been granted restraining his deportation, but in spite of that he was sent away. The Immigration Officer was cited for contempt of Court, and was held so far responsible that he was ordered to pay the costs of the case out of his own pocket. Then he would refer the House to a case that aroused a tremendous amount of excitement in Johannesburg, and that was the case of four men who were deported in September of 1911. He would like the Minister to pay special attention to the remarks of the judge in that case. They had heard it frequently said that he would not object to a man simply because he was an alien; but in this case the only grounds the immigration authorities gave was that the men were aliens. How often had the Minister got up and said, “Never will I bar a man from coming into this country because he is an alien”? What guarantee was there that those fair words would not be entirely nullified? What was the good of their being told these things in the House if that kind of thing was to continue? Might he point out, with regard to that agitation in Johannesburg, that there had been intense feeling on that matter throughout the whole of the Jewish people of South Africa, because they felt that these men were being excluded purely on the ground of their being aliens, and on no other ground? In season and out of season, the hon. Minister had said he had other grounds, but he had never had the courage to rely upon them. Were they going to have the same sort of thing under this Act? The autocracy was to be extended, and Englishmen, Irishmen, Scotsmen, and others also were going to come under the heel of the Immigration Officer in future. With regard to that same agitation, there was going to be a big meeting at the Wanderers—an enormous demonstration—but there was a semi-official announcement that the Minister had given an assurance that there was going to be powers of appeal. The meeting vanished, and the powers referred to had also vanished. (A VOICE: “What class of people?”) As honourable, straightforward, and public-spirited as the hon. member himself. The hon. member should be ashamed of that interjection. He hoped that such remarks would be reserved for some other place than that House, for it was trying to create prejudice on account of race and religion. Continuing, he said in all earnestness that if the House did not insist upon a very serious amendment of the particular Bill which was before them they were sowing the seeds of tremendous trouble in the country. The Minister might say there was a good deal of criticism and ask for an alternative suggestion. He (Mr. Alexander) would suggest not a new Bill like that and a complete repeal of all the old Bills, but a real consolidation of the Natal, Free State—so far as it dealt with Europeans—the Cape, and Transvaal Acts. That would protect the European immigrants and would satisfy the Imperial Government. The study of the returns of immigration would show that the Asiatics had been kept out. If they did away with the indenture system they would keep Asiatics out of South Africa. Concluding, he said that when the Bill went into committee he hoped hon. members would endeavour to reconstruct it so far as they were allowed to do so by the rules of the House. They should put in sane measures providing for the exclusion of all undesirables. They should state who they were and they should keep them all out, but they should give every man the right to prove that he was not an undesirable, and they should not allow the Immigration Officer to be prosecutor, judge, and deporting officer. If hon. members would only take the trouble carefully to read through the clauses then he was sure it would help those who were endeavouring to convert a mad measure of autocracy into a reasonable and sane piece of democratic legislation.

feared that it was impossible to satisfy the hon. member for Cape Town, Castle. He thought that they should be grateful to the Minister of the Interior for his efforts to restrict immigration, and he for one would support the measure. He read the Bill as it had been explained by the Minister, leaving the door open too wide for Asiatic immigration, and as a representative of the Free State, he must object to this. As a result of the attitude of the Free State in the past, in prohibiting Asiatic importation, they had never had such troubles as arrest, passive resistance, deportation, etc. He would have applauded an attempt to provide contract labour under proper restrictions. He would not have been in favour of the Chinese being kept on the mines. He was totally opposed to admitting Asiatics, even those who were educated. These people merely wanted to practise as doctors, clergymen, and so on, and they would very soon compete with white men, and the white people, whose mode of living was different, would be unable to compete against them. Large numbers of petitions had been presented from the Free State on this matter, and he sincerely regretted the course now proposed. But what he regretted most of all was that Asiatics might become landed proprietors under clause 8, because the Bill only said that undesirable immigrants could not become landed proprietors. Surely that meant that desirable immigrants could become landowners. How could he justify this to his constituents? The Free State would be overrun with Asiatics, and the same would happen as was happening in the Cape. Cape Town would not remain the Legislative capital very much longer, because members of Parliament would refuse to spend half of the year in the midst of an Asiatic population (“people from the East”). (“Hear, hear,” and laughter.) He did not wish to be disrespectful in any matter, but on behalf of the Free State, which so far had been able to protect itself against any influx of Asiatics, he wished to lodge a protest against the proposed course. However, he would vote for the second reading, relying upon the Minister to move an amendment retaining the existing position in the Free State. (Hear, hear.)

said that he had no objection to the restriction of Asiatic immigration, because that was the policy that had been carried out in the part of the country from which he came for some time, but they had a decidedly different method there of checking the influx of immigrants from what was proposed under this Bill. He could not say that he agreed with the system that the Minister proposed to introduce under this Bill. He could not think that, even if the Imperial Government were agreeable to its present form, it was the method upon which the British Empire had been built up, that they were going to have people restricted in what he called a backdoor manner. If they wanted to have Asiatics restricted from coming here, he thought they should have the pluck to say so. This House should be allowed to decide whether they were going to stop them and, certainly so far as Natal was concerned, they did not want a further influx of Asiatics. They had got very many more Asiatics and coloured people to-day than they had whites. It was not many years since the immigration of Asiatics was first allowed, and the numbers had grown at an enormous rate. He contended that their old laws for dealing with them, the test of literacy that they had, was a great deal better than the test proposed under the present Bill. The Census figures that they had before them showed a very serious state of things in regard to immigration, and pointed out how dangerous it would be to prevent white men from coming in, and under this Bill a white man could be kept out just as much as the Asiatic. The Minister might tell them that he had no intention of keeping out white men, but they were there to make laws that would last for some years to come, and it might be that they would get a Government in power that might abuse the powers the Minister proposed to take under section 4. The test of literacy was far too stringent under this Bill.

When they came to its provisions in regard to the interchange of people between the Provinces they found a most extraordinary state of things. Just before Union Natal was asked to come in, and she was rather reluctant about it. They were told that, unless Natal did come in, there could be no Union. What did they find to-day? Instead of coming into Union they were going to be treated as a separate country in other parts of South Africa; the Minister proposed to perpetuate the state of things he found there, a ringed fence was to be put round Natal, and any person inside that fence was going to be prevented from getting outside. They knew, of course, that that would not affect white people, but the fact remained that no Indian or coloured person at the present time living in Natal and no native was going to be allowed to go freely to any other part of the Union. There was to be no chance of spreading these people about South Africa where they might be required as labourers. That was not a principle that they could possibly agree to. Then as to the position of whites under this Bill, he had taken some trouble to find out what style of immigrant could be obtained nowadays. They talked a lot about wanting immigrants. About twenty years ago they got a good class of immigrant into America from Western and Northern Europe, but now more than 72 per cent. of their immigrants were drawn from Southern and Eastern Europe. The people from Southern and Eastern Europe, if they were to come to this country in large numbers, we should probably say they were not the class of people we wanted. He (Mr. Meyler) could, however, show them that the industries of the United States had been built up by the influx of a population of that sort.

The Minister of Justice could not base his objection to immigration on quotations from Professor Marshall’s book, from which the Minister had made a misquotation at Turffontein during the recess. Professor Marshall had said that population was the first essential of a new country; capital might be quadrupled although the population was only doubled. (Hear, hear.) They could not (proceeded Mr. Meyler) expect people from Northern or Western Europe to come out here, because South Africa could not offer them as much as they could get in Canada, the free farms which Canada gave being a great inducement. Then America obtained most of the labour for its factories from other parts of the world. He contrasted the position of affairs in the United States with those prevailing in South Africa, where the natives were increasing very much more rapidly than the Europeans. South Africa, he maintained, could absorb a great many more people than it was obtaining at the present time. South Africa must obtain white men who could turn their hands to labour, and who did not want to live as gentlemen relying on the blacks to work for them. The industrial advancement of America would have been delayed but for the importation of labour. To those gentlemen on the cross-benches who objected to the introduction of any form of unskilled labour, he would say that the more industries we could obtain in South Africa the better it would be for white men all round. As it was, the black was encroaching on the domain of the white man, and he would encroach still more unless there was a bigger stream of immigration. Workmen in the United States had left certain forms of labour entirely to the newcomers, but this had done no harm to those previously in the country, because the latter had left the factories to do work which paid them better or else remained on as overseers. The same thing would happen here. The class of labour that went to America was not degenerate, and the hon. member quoted from Consular reports to show that immigrants to the United States from Europe had proved useful citizens. South Africa wanted people accustomed to leading thrifty lives, and once we opened the gates to them there would be a tremendous spurt of immigration. There was no class for which there was a greater antipathy in this country than the Poles, but they had played a very big part in America. In their native country they lived on £12 a year, which was less than the wages paid to any natives in South Africa. They knew that as far as the Hebrew people were concerned, they had no nationality of their own, and they were only too glad to become part of the nation to which they went. It was unpopular, he knew, for them to welcome these people, but they had to face the facts. He was just as much in favour of immigration as anyone there. If they wanted to increase their industries in South Africa, their white population must go ahead of the blacks. It was quite possible that some hon. members opposite would use these arguments against them, and would say that they ought not to get immigrants. As far as the literacy tests were concerned, these, if properly enforced, would keep out from a fourth to a fifth of the immigrants in America, but an able-bodied man he believed should always be allowed to come into the country if he was willing to work. When they came to the committee stage of the Bill he thought they would be able to frame something better, and he hoped that they would follow it up in the true spirit of Union, and not endeavour to put a ring fence round anyone.

said he was glad to know that the hon. member who had just spoken seemed to have changed his opinions. He was glad to welcome him as a convert—(laughter)—but he took it that what he meant to convey was that they required a greater white population because of the disparaging number of blacks in the country. Of course, then, to be logical, he would also object to the importation of more natives into the Union, as it was useless for his purpose to go on importing a few hundred whites at one end of the Union while at the same time they were bringing in natives by the thousands at the other end. With regard to the employment of Italian labour in America, the hon. member proceeded to point out that this was engineered by Italian bankers in America and speculators, and these immigrants had to pay a percentage upon the money advanced for their passage and to deal only with certain storekeepers. This system was condemned by the Government of America, and it was a system he did not want to see introduced into this country. The hon. member would find all the particulars in the American Bulletin. If he had such implicit faith in the officers of the Immigration Department as the hon. Minister, he could approach the measure in a much easier frame of mind. They knew of many cases of hardship, as the member for Cape Town had pointed out, but he was prepared to admit that the position was easier now than it had been. They should be careful in passing legislation of this kind. They were told in the Transvaal that the Immigration Law was passed to keep out the Asiatics, but since that there were hundreds of cases of real hardship to whites. He knew that in some cases the Department was justified in keeping certain classes out of the country, but he believed it was not the desire to keep out men who would become good citizens. The position of the Labour party had been often misrepresented, and he would point out again that they would oppose on every occasion any attempt to bring indentured labour into the country, but they would oppose any restrictions on free white, healthy immigrants. This Bill would still allow indentured and stimulated labour to come into the country, the very worst kind of immigrant. The hon. Minister did not realise that people were being brought into the country on contracts simply because their wages were lower than those in the situations they were brought out to fill. He did not know perhaps that merchants in this country were constantly importing people at less wages than those who already filled the jobs. This had a detrimental effect upon the people in the country, and upon contract labour in the long run, because it created a surplus of labour which they could not absorb in South Africa. Again, when some little industrial disturbance took place, employers rushed off and imported men to defeat the ends of the strikers. These were the main purposes for importing contract labour. There was something, he quite admitted, in the argument that a man preferred to have a contract, so that he should have some fixity of tenure, and he also knew they could not stop all contract labour. Some provision must be made for experts. In the little Bill which they had introduced, and which had been ruled out of order, they expressed the opinion that although they should not prohibit contract labour, they should place the responsibility for the conditions under which such contract labour came in upon the Minister. Every contract, he contended, should be signed by the Minister, and if after inquiry, he found that the purposes of the contract were merely to undermine the positions of workers already in the country, or for the purpose of filling the places of men on strike, he should refuse ratification, and the contract labourer should then be considered an undesirable. With regard to the restriction of Asiatics, there were no members who more desired to put an end to the immigration of Asiatics into South Africa than those on the Labour benches. The question was one that should be dealt with as a separate subject. They were told by the hon. Minister that the method suggested in the Bill was the only way, but a very large percentage of the members were pledged to oppose Asiatic immigration, and they should not be debarred from taking other steps. They should not subject white immigrants to such provisions. It might be to the benefit of a certain political party to interpret the proposed legislation literally. What would be the position of the people then? They would have to do away with the law altogether, and come back to dealing with the question of Asiatic immigration as a separate subject. There was one saving feature in the Bill. He was glad to see that the hon. Minister had provided for a Board, not to determine, unfortunately, but to advise on these cases. That Board should have greater powers than it had at the present time. The appointment of such Boards should be made compulsory in the seaports; the result would be that a great deal of hardship, litigation, and trouble would be done away with. A man coming into the country should have some appeal from the decision of one individual. Altogether too much power was placed in the hands of one man. The hon. Minister said he was dealing with Asiatic immigration on Australian lines. Australia followed the lines laid down in the Natal Act of 1898. The same methods were now being brought back into this country. The Australians, however, placed very little reliance on the measure they passed to restrict Asiatic immigration into their country. It was not worth to them the paper it was written on. They found that the only way to stop the immigration of Asiatics was to bring into the country large numbers of their own race. That would prove to be the only effective way of keeping Asiatics out of this country. What would be the position in this country in 15 or 20 years if they went on as they were doing now with a few white employees, planters, and traders? He could conceive that the millions just across the sea then would have developed as the Japanese and Chinese had developed, and were developing fast. They had always had an eye to this country. They would come to this country, and did the House suppose that the few whites here could hold the country against a people numbering so many millions. If that Parliament was wise they would take steps now to prevent such a calamity as he had mentioned coming about.

It being five minutes to 6 p.m.,

stated that in accordance with the Sessional Order adopted by the House on the 26th April, he would now adjourn the debate.

The debate was adjourned until Wednesday.

said that East Coast fever very closely affected the constituency he represented, and, in order to discuss this matter, he wished to move a reduction of the vote by £200.

said that the hon. member must move the reduction on some particular item.

said he would move that the item “temporary daily-paid inoculators” be reduced by £100. He was rather a disappointed man, as far as the Agricultural Department was concerned. He had great hopes when the Union Parliament was first formed and the right hon. gentleman was the Minister for Agriculture. He knew that centralisation was necessary, but he had always looked forward to the time when, having established a central system, there would be branches of the Department set up in the different districts of the country, which should be presided over by an able and capable man, with responsibility in his hands and some money to back him with, in order to promote the agriculture of that particular portion of the Province. Nothing had been done in that direction yet. They had in the constituencies represented by the hon. member for Griqualand and himself a country which was like a province, and which contained nearly one million people.

said that the hon. member must confine himself to the vote for temporary daily-paid inoculators.

said that he would have another opportunity, perhaps, of speaking on this particular point. These people in connection with this vote needed every encouragement, because they had set a noble example to the rest of the country in regard to fighting East Coast fever.

again pointed out to the hon. member that he must confine himself to the item on which he had moved a reduction.

said that, in regard to the inoculators, he might say that a system of inoculation had been set on foot by the Government. It was an experiment, and he did not think it was fair that the Transkei should be made the subject of this experiment for the benefit of the whole country without some compensation being made to them. If he were to confine himself to the question of inoculation he should not have much more to say at present, but would have to move again further on. Was he to understand that he was not at liberty to refer to East Coast fever?

I understood that the general subject was discussed on the first motion.

I would put it to you that the Transkei is part of the territory which has been decimated by East Coast fever. This is a vote on East Coast fever. I only moved this reduction in order to—

The hon. member can ask any question in regard to East Coast fever.

said that they knew very little about East Coast fever in the Transkei. They had had no report upon it from the Agricultural Department. He maintained that it should not be left to hon. members on that side to drag out of the Government in corkscrew fashion any information in regard to this matter. All the information they had had been drawn out by questions. He would like to give the House some more information about the condition of the Transkei in relation to East Coast fever. He had before him a speech by the President of the General Council of the Transkei, from which it appeared that thirty tanks had been built and two purchased from syndicates. The number of cattle dipped during the eight months ending February last was 1,414,939, the cost of supervision being 6s. 11d. per 100 head dipped, and the cost of dipping 1s. 1d. per 100 head. In doing this, Mr. Schreiner urged, the people of the Transkei were fighting the battle against East Coast fever for the whole of the Cape Colony. He did not think that sufficient credit had been given them by the Department or the country generally in regard to this matter.

If there were one thing the Transkei deserved it was facilities for transport. The constituents he represented deserved to be helped, but they were spoken of as if they were backward and had been instrumental in spreading East Coast fever, but the reverse had been the case.

said the debate on the general agricultural policy of the Government had been closed.

I am only discussing it in the Transkei. I have not said one word on the subject before.

asked for an explanation in regard to the daily paid inoculators. He had been informed that in the Transkei lately it had been alleged that a method had been discovered of inoculating bovines against East Coast fever, but he understood that these cattle had become sources of infection so far as the ticks were concerned.

said that now that East Coast fever in Natal had subsided, the farmers there wished to have the services of district veterinary surgeons at a lower fee.

said if the district surgeons in Natal had any spare time they would be glad to have them in East Griqualand. (Hear, hear.)

thought the Government should take steps in regard to the supervision of dipping tanks. Some of the supervisors were unable to read and write.

Were they white men?

Yes.

said that was an extremely serious position; there was nothing that impressed the native more than to find that the white man was not his equal. Continuing, Sir Percy said that at the end of last year he saw the dipping tanks in the Native Territory. Every tank cost, he believed, from £400 to £600 to build. When a farmer saw them as an example of what he had to do he was heartbroken. The races of these tanks were built of concrete, and were so broad that one could drive a span of oxen in the yoke through them. He was not indicting the Union Government over this matter, for he thought that these tanks were built before Union. The extravagance in this instance was perfectly monstrous. Adequate dips could be erected in a district where one had sand and stone for £50; he had built them for that sum, and the hon. member for Umlazi (Mr. Fawcus) had done it for less and so had others. Then there had been other mistakes. Cattle had been killed through the use of too strong dips, and the result of this was very difficult to eradicate among the natives, as it aroused the suspicion that the Europeans wanted to destroy their cattle. Again, spraying as a preventive of East Coast fever was absolutely worthless. (Cheers.) It was a waste of time, built of false hopes, and gave no satisfactory results. Two years ago he went to Washington to find out what America was doing with regard to Red water. The authorities there complained that owing to the ignorance and conservative habits of the farming population in the United States it was almost impossible to get them to co-operate in the matter of dipping, but the authorities were confident that if the farmers would go in for dipping the country could be cleared of the disease, but inoculation they condemned absolutely. He would earnestly impress upon the Minister the necessity of clearing the country of the tick. Clearing the country of the thing that caused the disease was to raise the standard of the stock in the country.

referred the Minister to page 32, where he noticed a considerable reduction in the East Coast fever inspectors. What he wanted to know was why there was a dissimilarity in the payments made to inspectors in the different Provinces. For instance, there was a great dissimilarity between the amounts paid in Natal and the Free State.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he thought it worth while to have investigations made in regard to the alleged cure for gal-lamziekte, found by Mr. Van Zyl, of Griqualand West. Mr. Van Zyl contended that his cure was a sure one, and it might be worth while having investigations made.

wanted to know why a number of natives in Government employ did not appear in the numerical column?

asked if the whole of vote 6 was under discussion?

wished to know whether the vaccine for East Coast fever had been a success, and how matters were proceeding in this respect? (Hear, hear.) Could farmers get a supply?

said he would like to refer to the vote for stock inspectors, and would like to know if these officers examined the liquid in dipping tanks to see if it was strong enough to perform its work, and yet not too strong to injure the stock.

said that he wanted to make it thoroughly understood that he was thoroughly in favour of dipping, but he thought it would be a good thing if Government would devote a few more veterinary surgeons to inoculate the cattle in the Transkei.

said that perhaps he might be allowed to remove a cause of anxiety in the mind of the hon. member for Tembuland with regard to his query why certain natives did not appear in the numerical column. He was quite wrong in thinking that this only applied to natives, because if he looked at page 7, paragraph 2, he would find stated there that to the figures quoted in the Estimates must be added a number of natives and Indians, part time officers and others, who were not now shown in the numerical column.

drew the attention of the hon. Minister to the fact that the Assistant Principal Veterinary Surgeon was to have £700; last year he got £650. His annual increment was supposed to be £25. How was that to be explained? In the next item, five senior veterinary surgeons, there was an increase of £250. Their annual increases were £20, so that it could not represent more than £100. He noticed too that European constables in the Transvaal were paid 10s. a day, while European fence guards were paid 12s. 6d. a day. Why was that? Under transport and travelling there was a sum of £2,530 for commuted allowances to Government veterinary surgeons. Then again, under “Incidental Expenses,” they found a sum of £418 for clothing for guards on Orange Free State-Natal border. What was the meaning of that?

said that when the Government put the Animals’ Diseases Act into force and arranged dipping inspectors, the one essential thing was that the strength of the dip should be correct. There was a patent dipping test instrument, and he thought it would be an easy thing in order that there should be no injury to the cattle that the dip should be of the correct strength.

in his reply, said in regard to the remarks of the hon. member for Tembuland that Dr. Theiler had invented a method of inoculating or salting animals against East Coast fever, so that he could salt from 70 to 80 per cent. of the animals. The experiments were made in the laboratory at Pretoria, and not in the Transkei. In the Transkei the state of affairs was not the same as elsewhere. A large number of animals had been inoculated there, but the large number of deaths was due to the fact that disease had been spread very widely there; 42,000 animals had been inoculated, of which 18,000 had been salted. If inoculation had not taken place, 96 per cent. of the animals would have died. Hon. members should recollect that the number of dipping tanks there was not very large. As regarded supervisors, he thought it would be impossible to have supervisors for every tank, as the result of this would be that they would ultimately have to keep on something like 5,000 or 6,000 supervisors. He contended that farmers should do their own supervising as much as possible, while the Government would help as far as they could. Inoculation against tuberculosis still took place at the coast. Replying to Sir Percy Fitzpatrick, the Minister said the inoculating of mules had proved a thorough success, and Dr. Theiler thought that he had now found a similar cure against horse-sickness, and his efforts in Zoutpansberg and Waterberg had proved similarly successful. They could, however, not say what the actual outcome would be until next season. As regarded the erection of expensive tanks in the Transkei, he could not see why tanks costing £400 and £600 should have been erected. If people co-operated the cost should not be more than £90, which he had himself paid, and he was inquiring into the matter. Dealing with inoculation against redwater, he held that good results had been obtained from this, and he thought it would not be wise to stop this altogether in cases where there were no dips. He and his Department were in favour of the best cure and preventive—the dip. As regarded the cure for gal-lamziekte, he said he was learning of alleged cures from every part of the country. They had tried a Mr. Edwards’ cure, and if the hon. member knew what it was they would realise how ridiculous all these cures were. They were, however, doing their utmost to cope with the disease, as they fully realised its seriousness. He next touched upon the question of salaries of East Coast fever guards, and said a number of temporary people had had to be appointed in various parts of the country. Some had to be appointed in unhealthy parts of the country, or they required to have a horse, and both therefore had to be paid more. He, personally, was not in favour of such guards except in cases where outbreaks had occurred. He did not favour a uniform scale of payment for these temporary officials.

In reply to Sir Edgar Walton, the Minister said that an assistant chief veterinary surgeon had had to be appointed. Replying to Mr. Fawcus, he favoured that every farmer should use an instrument for the testing of his dip. The Government could not provide every supervisor with one.

said that the natives in the King William’s Town district lived in locations, where dips had been built. They paid for them in the ordinary way, and they wanted to know whether they would have control of them.

replied in the affirmative.

said he wished to know whether or not it was intended to reduce the number of supervisors. He would also like the Minister of Agriculture to tell the House whether it was a fact that it had been ascertained that horses carried the infection of East Coast fever as well as cattle. There was another question upon which he wanted some information, and that was with regard to the hides of animals that had died of East Coast fever. Of course, farmers or traders had to certify that the hides had been properly fumigated, but in some districts of the Transkei they were allowed to send in the certificates by native constables, and in others the traders and farmers were obliged to themselves travel 20 or 30 miles to sign a certificate. He would like to know why there should be a difference in some districts.

said that horses did not carry infection; they carried the tick. That was the trouble. And the native also carried the tick on his clothes. (Laughter.) He believed that the tick became harmless after it had once fed upon some animal, but a great many had not the opportunity of feeding on other animals, and that was precisely why he was always urging—he hoped that he was not boring them; if he did he hoped he would bore them into taking action—the extinction of the tick.

The Prime Minister had said—and he thought perfectly rightly—that the Government could not provide dips, money, advice, and drugs, and then inspectors, supervisors, and everything. He did not want the Government to provide anything except that under the Dipping Tank Advances Act they should let the farmer borrow money at a reasonable rate of interest and then tell him that he must build his dip. It was no use playing with this matter. They must compel them to do it in the interests of the whole country, in the same way that they compelled people to put down small-pox, typhoid, or anything else. The Prime Minister had mentioned that in the Transvaal East Coast fever had been got in hand. He (Sir J. P. Fitzpatrick) had a letter dated March 17, saying that there was not a single Government dip built in the Waterberg district, and there were only half-a-dozen private dips. He was surprised that the hon. member for Waterberg did not take the matter up. There was a district in which there was East Coast fever; it may have cleared off certain farms, but there was a gentleman whom he mentioned last year, Mr. Frikkie Boshof, who still refused to dip, but he was leaving the country because he objected to the Minister’s Bill in regard to the defence law, which would be a great relief, he thought, in the matter of tick fever. In regard to the position in the Transkei, the hon. member said that the disease was not spread on the road because of transport had been stopped, but the fever spread in the veld on both sides of the road.

said in May, 1910, East Coast fever had broken out among 110 animals on a farm in the Waterberg. They were isolated, and only three animals had since died from the disease. He (Mr. Nicholson) had advocated the erection of dipping tanks, but notwithstanding the fact that in the past there were 64 infected farms in the Waterberg district, only three farms were infected now. He pointed to the difficulties experienced owing to the large game reserves, as the game carried the tick. He added that as long as this game reserve was there the tick would live.

said that as soon as possible his request would be complied with.

said that in reference to the remarks of the hon. member for Pretoria East, Mr. Frikkie Boshof was not on his own farm, but was trekking when the disease broke out in November, 1910. There was no dipping law in force then. It subsequently came into force. Three head of cattle died only. In 1911 Mr. Frikkie Boshof asked to remove off the farm to his own. The Government said he could do so if he would erect a dip, and dip these cattle five or six times in succession; but, otherwise, they would not permit it. Now they could not compel the owner of that farm, who was not living or had cattle on the farm, to erect a dip, according to this Act, to dip cattle that were there without his knowledge and consent. They could not compel Frikkie Boshof to build a dip on another man’s farm. The law had made no provision for that. Consequently Boshof was not ordered to build a tank or compelled to dip, as he otherwise would have been had he been the owner or lessee of the farm.

said there were nine veterinary surgeons in the Transkei, and they were required there.

said that all this would have been perfectly harmless if the hon. gentleman had not made his explanation, but this was the same Frikkie Boshof whose cattle were spared when the natives’ cattle were shot. They could not shoot his cattle when they were infected, they could not dip them, and they could not remove them; what were they going to do?

No.

said that, as animals in the Transkei were dying in large numbers, people were buying-up skins. These people had to have a licence, so that the Government should know who were buying these skins. The person referred to by Mr. Schreiner apparently had no licence.

said that he had asked a question in regard to the difference in administration in different districts in relation to hides.

The amendment to reduce the vote was negatived.

moved on page 32, in the item “Government share of salaries of dipping inspectors in Cape native districts,” to omit “native”.

Agreed to.

said the Minister would remember that when they were discussing the general policy the question of scab was referred to. He then raised the question of the disgraceful condition of affairs existing in the district of Britstown. That morning he had received a telegram of a most important character that he should like to read to the House. He was sorry that the hon. member for Beaufort West was not in his place, because he presumed that he had got a similar telegram. The telegram was from the Mayor of Beaufort West, and was in the following terms: “At request of all parties, have convened a public meeting Tuesday, 11th, to protest against regulation legalising persons trekking scabby sheep on hand dressing. Farmers up in arms. If cannot obtain some protection, would like to have similar safeguards as provided latter part of section 38 of Act 20, 1894. Should agricultural vote come on meanwhile, please make use of this telegram in our interests. Asking Eastern Province Farmers’ Association to co-operate.” Sir T. W. Smartt went on to say that he read this, knowing the importance of the telegram, and he did it solely in the interests of the progressive sheep farmers of this country.

Even at the eleventh hour he would ask the Prime Minister to put a stop to a condition of affairs under which progressive farmer, who had spent a large amount of money in cleansing their flocks, had found all their efforts rendered absolutely useless by the loose regulations of the Agricultural Department. He (Sir Thomas) was perfectly certain that the hon. member for Hope Town (Mr. Marais) would be able to substantiate the charges he (Sir Thomas) made the other day with regard to the disgraceful condition of affairs prevailing there. If farmers, through their own carelessness, had their flocks infected, they should not be allowed to trek through the country spreading disease broadcast and preventing their more progressive neighbours from reaping the proper reward of their labours. (Cheers.)

denied, as far as his constituency was concerned, that scab was increasing. The law had been applied stringently there, and his district was one of the cleanest he had ever seen. But he pitied the North-western districts, to hear that people should be allowed to trek with unclean flocks. He had received numbers of letters on the subject, when the people were being fined for breaches of the law, and feared that a strong agitation would be started in Britstown against the law. What was the Minister going to do? Contagion came from scabby sheep on trek, and that trekking was allowed by the Government. Was he going to allow his (Mr. Marais’) constituents to be called before the Court because they did not comply with the law, whilst others could go free? Were those who trekked free from the law?

held that the report showed there had been a great improvement as regarded the spread of scab. He pointed out that large numbers of people had objected to simultaneous dipping. Personally, he did not believe in all these telegrams which had been received, such as that from Beaufort West. He, for one, could testify to the regulations being administered excellently. He thought that the persons objecting to the regulations were the same people who so strongly objected to the Act. To mock at the farmers, and call them “remschoen” farmers only discouraged them.

said it was a positive fact that large numbers of farmers in the Britstown district who a few years ago were strong opponents of the Scab Act were now strong supporters of it, and their sheep had become perfectly clean. What he protested against was that, notwithstanding the fact that these people had spent considerable sums of money in cleansing their flocks, the whole of their efforts were frustrated by thousands and thousands of infected sheep coming into the place from outside districts.

Why don’t you dip them?

Because they are not our sheep. I wish I could dip them. (Laughter.)

Continuing, Sir Thomas said that on large farms it was sometimes found that two or three troops of these infected sheep had been on the ground moving about from place to place for some days before their presence was discovered. If they did not put a stop to this sort of thing they would have men who had been converted to the advantages of the Scab Act turning round and saying to the Government: “You had better tear up the Scab Act, because after all our efforts they are going to be frustrated by people trekking through the country with infected flocks.” The Prime Minister’s first duty was to the man who had obeyed the law, and not to the man who had disobeyed it. A man could do as he liked, so long as he did not do an injustice to somebody else. If the law were not to be enforced it would be better to repeal it, so they could return to the good old days. But in the good old days under the Dutch Government, about 1775, anyone who had scabby sheep had to pay a fine of so many rix-dollars per head, and the throat of each infected animal had to be cut. He did not know whether it would not be well to have a law of that kind now. (Opposition cheers.)

said he could not agree with the hon. member who had just spoken with regard to the administration of the Scab Act. They were making a mistake if they thought they were going to revolutionise the country with the Scab Act. He sympathised with the Hon. the Prime Minister in the administration of the Act, and it was a most difficult matter indeed to administer the Act properly. Unquestionably this question of trekking was one of the chief causes of the spread of scab, but if he were asked to give advice as to how they could overcome that difficulty, then he could not do so. If they had only sheep to deal with, the question would be easy enough, because the farmer who had scabby sheep ought to be ashamed of himself. The Government had themselves to blame for advocating dips which were useless. Unless they used a dip of sulphur and lime, then it was useless dipping. Other dips would only check scab—they would not cure it. Instead of having an Act, they ought to have instructed people how to dip their stock properly. They had been advocating the use of dips which were ineffectual to eradicate scab, and farmers, after having used these, had lost faith in dipping entirely. He certainly thought that there should be more strictness with regard to those people who were trekking, but he would like to point out that there were a large number of professional trekkers who were always on the move. They made a rough living—in fact, a very barbarous living—but they made a living, and the Prime Minister would be doing the country a great service if he could put a stop to these professional trekkers.

said if he had a house that was not big enough for him, he had to buy another, and if a man had a farm which was not big enough for his stock, then he had to buy another one; but here they were allowing a man to feed his stock at the expense of others. If a man bought a farm in a territory that was afflicted periodically with drought, he knew that he would have to encounter drought, but he could not understand how anyone in that House could get up and defend these people who were actually parasites living upon the industrious farmers. These people had no right at all to maintain large flocks and allow them to feed on the territory of others. During the present session a return was called for in another place with regard to the number of sheep and the dipping tanks. In Cape Colony there were 29 million sheep and goats, of which there were over a million infected with scab, which to his thinking—well, that was a fearful thing. They were told that Australia cleared scab out of the country because they had an unsympathetic Government. Originally Australia bought sheep from Africa, and now they had 90 million clean sheep. In the Transvaal they had five million sheep, but the returns with regard to scab were unavailable. In the Orange Free State there were 9½ million sheep and in Natal 2½ million, but only the number of flocks infected were given. He could not agree with this sympathetic administration, because it was a protection to the loafer and the professional trekker. Everyone knew that there were real difficulties in clearing out scab, but why enable people to infect others?

pointed out that of the million sheep which the hon. member said were infected, only a small proportion were actually scabby. He would point out also that as regarded the flocks he did not mean that all the sheep were infected.

said that he did not mean to infer that the million sheep were all scabby, but that the order for cleansing was for that number. If there were so few sheep infected as the hon. member for Prieska suggested, then it were much better to kill them and burn their carcases.

thought the information obtained by Sir Percy Fitzpatrick as regarded Mr. Enslin’s statement was correct. Mr. Enslin had told the people that trekking with scabby sheep was forbidden. An owner could not stop another trekking with scabby sheep. What would one do if one stopped such a man? One could, however, prosecute such a person. As regarded the trekking with scabby sheep, he thought the people in Britstown and Beaufort West who tried to keep the farms clean had a just grievance against others trekking with scabby sheep over their farms. But the position was that large numbers of people with or without permit had simply trekked owing to the exceptional drought. He had at once done everything possible, and Mr. Enslin had gone to the area concerned and done what he could. But notwithstanding that the people had trekked. He could not very well send out a commando to stop these people, although the other farmers had his hearty sympathy. In the North-west one naturally found farmers who kept the sheep clean and others who did not. The Department had been placed in an extremely awkward position. As far as he could see, the Scab Act had never been strictly applied in that part of the country. The part of the country referred to was a very large one, and they required at the very least six times as many inspectors as they had now. The trouble was that in the past attempts had been made to eradicate scab by law, instead of giving examples, and nothing had been done to eradicate it in practice. Demonstration, he contended, would do a lot of good; therefore he counselled patience, and he assured the House that he felt as strongly on the matter as anyone else. Permits to trek were given on condition that every sheep obviously suffering from scab was to be hand dressed every day.

Mr. Enslin had just returned from the North-west, and had assured him that the drought was a most serious one. If they stopped people altogether, hundreds of farmers would be ruined. He pointed out how in the past he had met the Free State in regard to this Act, which it was then necessary to violate, and with the result that general satisfaction had been given. He hoped no member of Parliament would in future express opinions that scab could not be eradicated, as such expressions would have disastrous effects. It could be eradicated. He would assure hon. members that he would do his utmost to appoint more inspectors after the first good rains in the North-west, and deal with the matter properly. (Hear, hear.)

said he thought he had listened to the most astonishing statement he had ever heard from a Minister. In effect he said that those farmers in the North who had scabby sheep deified him, and they would trek. They who were in favour of having their sheep dipped had his (the Minister’s) sympathy, but he could do nothing at all. That was a most astonishing statement, and an hon. member opposite applauded the statement. He (Mr. Blaine) had been reading some debates which took place in the Cape Parliament in 1866, and that evening they had been having the same arguments as were used in those days. It seemed to him that the position of the man who tried to keep his sheep clean, under the astonishing statement that had just been made, was absolutely hopeless.

asked what the Minister intended to do in regard to the infected parts of his district. Did he intend prosecuting people?

replied that farmers could prosecute persons trekking over their farms with infected sheep, and sue them for damages.

said that when men were allowed to trek all over the country with scabby sheep it was impossible to prove whose sheep had caused the infection. That was one of the greatest weaknesses of the regulations framed last session in connection with the Stock Diseases Act. The point raised by the hon. member for Hope Town was whether the Department of Agriculture would proceed against those persons who trekked with scabby sheep and which thereby infected other flocks. A question which he (Sir Thomas) wished to ask was whether the officer who had been appointed chief of the sheep and wool department had had as much practical experience as Mr. Davidson, who, as some people thought, had been unfairly treated in being passed over. Had the officer who had been appointed in charge of the sheep and wool department more knowledge and experience of dealing with the disease of scab than Mr. Davidson, who had given years and years of most valuable service to the Cape Government?

said he wanted to know what the Minister of Agriculture was prepared to do in connection with simultaneous dipping. Further, he would like to know whether the Minister would introduce regulations to compel a man to give a pass in the case of sheep trekking, stating the number and condition of the sheep, where they came from, and where they were proceeding, and also compelling every man to send a copy of the pass to the sheep inspector of the district whither the sheep were proceeding? Under the old law they had to get passes from the sheep inspector. An owner who wanted to send sheep had to send a duplicate of the pass, which he gave to his driver, to his inspector, and that inspector sent it on to the inspector of the district to which the sheep were being sent.

said the whole trouble was that people in the past had been compelled to do certain things before matters had been explained to them. The new head of the sheep department, Mr. Enslin, had already done more than the celebrated Mr. Davidson, who had tried to compel people. With compulsion this matter would never be solved, and Mr. Enslin realised this.

referred to the difficulties with which the Government was faced in the North-west, due to the great distances and the drought. What could the Government do? he asked. He thought they should go back to the old Free State Act and say that a man could not trek with scabby sheep over another’s farm, but if he did, such a person should be responsible for all the damage done by him. It was impossible to stop these people from trekking, but let them trek at their own risk. The great difficulty was that it hardly ever rained in the North-west, and the Government had been forced to allow trekking under certain conditions.

said he would direct the attention of the Minister to the way in which the scab regulations affected the Transkei, where there were a large number of sheep, and where about a quarter of the wool of the Cape Colony was produced. In the past the regulations had given satisfaction, but now, with the new regulations, there came a great change, and especially as to the application of the laws and regulations. In the old days only such laws and regulations applied in the Transkei as the Native Affairs Department chose to apply by proclamation. But there had been a change, and now all laws and regulations applied. He should be glad to have some information regarding that. What had been represented to him was that laws which would apply very well to sparsely populated districts were not applicable to districts where the population was dense. He mentioned the difficulty of carrying out the regulation about cleaning the kraals and removing the sheep to another kraal. He had been requested to bring the matter before the Minister, so that, if necessary, some investigation or examination could be made and some modification made in the rules to make them suitable for the Transkei.

said that there was an item of £3,500, purchase of wool for instruction purposes. That seemed to be a very large amount.

said the students at the Agricultural Colleges had to be taught the sorting of wool, etc., and this wool referred to was bought for that purpose. It was not anticipated that there would be any loss under this head.

said that he would like to have some explanation in regard to the item of flock-masters. That was a term they were not acquainted with in the Cape Province, and they had not had a single report from the Department.

said this was simply an alteration in the name, so as to bring the various names into uniformity. The people referred to were wool experts.

asked why only the native constables were required?

said that native constables had been appointed to assist the 91 sheep inspectors in the Native Territories.

said that the hon. member for Tembuland had put two questions, one of a general nature, and the other principally dealing with scab. The general question was whether the old rule still applied that, unless a law were specially stated to be applicable to the Territories, a Proclamation had to be issued. The answer was that that was still the case. The second point was whether these regulations were also in force in the Territories. The answer was, yes. The old Proclamation No. 60, which extended the old Cape Scab Acts to the Territories, had been withdrawn, and the new regulations also applied to the Territories. They were submitted to the Native Affairs Department beforehand. As regarded the destruction of the kraals, the position was that where a farm was infected the kraal was destroyed.

said that he would like to ask the Minister what he proposed to do about inoculating cattle in Europe before they were exported to this country against gal-sickness and redwater. He understood from Dr. Theiler, when he visited his laboratory some time ago, that some system was to be carried out.

replied that an agreement had been made with the British Government concerning the inoculation against tuberculosis of imported animals. The same thing could be done with regard to redwater.

asked for information regarding the item “labour for laboratories and field research, £5,996.”

said it was for work done in the laboratory.

wished to know if it were correct, as stated the other day, that three additional dairy instructors had been appointed.

said they had been appointed to the agricultural schools.

wished to clear up a misunderstanding regarding the importation of butter. It had been stated that the Mooi River Creamery had imported butter from Australia and afterwards sold it as their own product. The question had been put in such a form by hon. members as to lead the public to believe that this really had been done, but really nothing of the sort had occurred. What had happened was that some of the imported butter had been carried up-country at Colonial rates through the fault of the Railway Department. There was nothing immoral in a dairy company importing butter during the winter months. The Mooi River Creamery was a most respectable concern and had done a tremendous lot in Natal. Hon. members in putting questions in that House in regard to the Mooi River Creamery had unwittingly been made cats-paws of by rival concerns. Had Government any knowledge of anything wrong having been done in connection with this imported butter?

replied that the Government had no reason to believe that imported butter had been sold as Colonial produce by the company referred to. The company was an honest concern as far as they knew. Hear, hear.)

said he would like to know whether the botanists and one or two other officials were to be dispensed with and their work done by the Agricultural Colleges?

replied that they would be removed to the Agricultural College as soon as it was ready.

sought for information with regard to the item, “Noxious weed inspector, £240.” In the Cape noxious weeds came under the various Divisional Councils. There appeared to be a disposition to pile up a list of officials. What could one inspector for the whole of the Union do? He could not help complaining that it was through the lack of information that hon. members were bound to ask questions. They had no report from the different departments, so they could not know what was going on. (Cheers.) Seeing that there were no reports the Prime Minister must excuse them if they put questions and thus seemed to delay progress. (Hear, hear.)

replied that steps had been taken to have the report published every year. It was only owing to the accumulation of work under Union that the report had not been published. The item referred to was for the inspector of noxious weeds in the Transvaal.

said he thought the Prime Minister should see that these reports were laid on the table so that they might be discussed. Here was this official spending half a million of money and yet they had no report as to how this sum was being spent.

answered that steps had been taken to secure annual publication of the report.

said he thought that the Prime Minister was a little mistaken on this matter. The rule in the old Cape Colony was that the head of each Department used to write out his report. The Prime Minister said that if there had been a report these things would not have been contained in it.

wanted to know if the admirable work done by Mr. Burtt Davy with regard to the mealie culture was being continued. He saw that there was a great future for the growing of mealies in Bechuanaland.

said it was intended to continue the work.

on subheading G (Plant Pathology and Mycology), said he noticed on this particular Department there was one messenger provided for who received the magnificent sum of £36 per annum. He would like to know what his duties were and whether the maximum of £90 would be all he would eventually receive. With regard also to the assistants, the hon. member said he would like to know what were the qualifications required of these gentlemen.

said the messenger was a little boy.

“Pitch him out.”

The professional assistants at low salaries were really apprentices.

desired to know what were the results of the cotton-growing experiments.

said the results in the Transvaal, at Rustenburg and Tzaneen, had been excellent. The land was suitable, and it appeared that a good industry could be fostered. It was intended to extend the experiment to East London. He believed that cotton would do well in the north of the Transvaal.

said he had received a letter from the British Cotton Growers’ Association that experiments had been carried on for some time, and that they were successful. At present, however, there was not any great quantity of cotton produced in the country.

replied that the expert had informed them that they could grow as good a quality as any other part of the world if farmers took up the industry in the right way. Excellent cotton was being planted at Tzaneen.

said that the Transkei territory near the coast was magnificent cotton ground, and was the first place where experiments should be made.

wished to know why Mr. Chisholm had left Tzaneen. Had not the time come when the estate, which was a very large one, should be given out for land settlement purposes? Experiments at East London had been made by a private firm.

said Mr. Chisholm had accepted another position. He did not wish to enter into the other question at this stage, but when the railway question had been settled, this matter would be settled.

On sub-head K,

moved on page 42, sub-head K.1, to place the item “viticulturist” on the scale of salary “£400—20—500”; and to alter the scale of salary for the “assistant viticulturist” from “£210—15—300” to “£280—20—360”.

Agreed to.

said he wanted to ask the hon. Minister a very important question—one that he asked last year, but it had had no effect. He wanted to know what was the policy of his right hon. friend with regard to extending the provisions of the Adulteration Act with respect to Cape wines and brandies. It had done much for the development of the wine industry in the Cape Colony, and he would like to see it extended to every portion of the Union. He was perfectly certain that it would have a great effect in doing away with the adulteration of liquor, which, it is well known, was freely sold in the large consuming centres of the Transvaal and other parts of the country. He hoped to have an assurance that some provision would be made next session. They should endeavour to do away with adulteration in every possible manner.

said the Government purposed extending the Adulteration Act to the other Provinces. Owing to the lack of time, they had been unable to deal with the matter this year, but he hoped this would be one of the first measures to be dealt with next session.

said that he wanted to know what the policy of the Government was in regard to the eradication of pernicious scale? The Government started to eradicate the scale, but subsequently gave up, and he did not know what they were now doing.

said that when San Jose scale broke out in Pretoria, a sort of panic was caused throughout the country. The Government at once took proper steps, but found that the £10,000 allowed would not be sufficient for the eradication of the scourge. They were not prepared to spend money in the dark. Mr. Lounsbury found that this scourge had already been in a number of places in the Transvaal, Free State, and Natal since 1906, and that it would cost a large amount to deal with the matter. There were other means of dealing with this scourge, and experts had advised that it was best to cleanse the trees in a different and less expensive manner, and this was done. It was easier to deal with that disease than with the codlin moth.

said he wished to ask a question with regard to the prickly pear.

asked the hon. member which vote he was referring to.

Unfortunately there is no item, but can’t I raise it on the general question?

replied in the negative.

On sub-head L,

moved on page 44, sub-head L.6, item 3, after sheds” to insert “provision of fumigating chambers and material.”

Agreed to.

said that he wished to raise the question of the purity of fertilisers. There was no question whatever that the whole country was being swindled to a very large extent habitually in certain brands and kinds of fertilisers. The same thing was being done in regard to seeds. These were two matters which had not only cost enormous amounts of money every year, but had caused the most awful discouragement to those who wanted to do something in the way of development. He had seen purchases made repeatedly of fertilisers which were supposed to be efficient, he had also seen the purchase of seeds which were supposed to produce a given result, but after the expenditure and a year’s work the whole thing was condemned, not through the fault of the man who did the work, but owing to the material that was supplied, and in many cases men had been so discouraged that they had given up the attempt altogether. Perhaps the purity of seeds was even more important than the purity of fertilisers. Personally, he had had the greatest disappointment entirely due to bad seed. They were not up to specification. He thought the experience of the few should be put at the disposal of the many by means of legislation. Seeds and fertilisers should be subjected to the most rigorous examinations and tests, and heavy penalties for fraud in this connection should be provided.

said that, as far as the Cape Province was concerned, they had a law, and every importer must submit a sample of every consignment to be analysed and a certificate was then given. When it was supplied to any farmer he must state the composition. That was one of those things which they hoped to deal with for the whole of the Union.

Next session?

said that he would formally move the deletion of the whole of this vote. He did not want to say much at the present stage, but he wished to give the Minister warning that they were going to raise this question at a later stage. On several occasions lately the Minister of Agriculture had told them that the chemical department was under one supreme and absolute control. If they looked at page 79 of the Estimates they would find that the chemical department, which was a department of the Department of Agriculture, had been transferred and was under the administration of an admirable officer. They now found on page 44, notwithstanding this statement of the Minister, that they were now beginning to establish another chemical department. They were now going back again and breaking up the two departments. They were going to have the most admirable work which Dr. Juritz had carried out in connection with soil investigation absolutely broken up. They were going to have their chemical investigations carried out without any co-ordination or organisation whatsoever. Government had acknowledged that it had made a mistake. The chemical department should have remained under the Agricultural Department, and it was the most mistaken policy to have two or three different people dealing with questions of this sort.

explained that what was shown in the Estimates was to give effect to the report of the Civil Service Commission, which recommended that the general chemical work should be done by one department, apart from that of the Agricultural Department, which should be carried out by the chemists at the Agricultural Colleges, and also that there should be one general office for the performance of the purely agricultural work. When they mixed up medical work, the investigation of foods and drugs, and agricultural chemistry, the latter was grossly neglected. That had been the experience in the Cape. Dr. Juritz’s time was so occupied in doing legal and foods work that soil investigation was neglected most disgracefully at the Cape. (Hear, hear.) An attempt would be made to remedy that by having a separate chemical department for agricultural work.

said did he understand the Minister to say that he acknowledged that there must be a chemical department attached to the Agricultural Department? The Prime Minister maintained the reverse; only the other evening the Prime Minister said all the work was under the control of Dr. Juritz. He (Sir Thomas) left the two Ministers to settle the difference between themselves. The most important part of the work was the chemical investigation of soils—a work which should be carried out by a man of world-wide reputation like Dr. Juritz.

said he noticed an item in the chemical department which referred to the generating of gas. (Laughter.) He would like to know what that was.

said they all felt very disappointed when they became aware that Dr. Juritz’s services would no longer be required by the Agricultural Department.

asked the Prime Minister how many divisions were in his Department, and how they were being run?

said the hon. member ought to have raised that when the salary of the Minister of Agriculture was under discussion.

said he quite saw the point, and would raise the question when the Supplementary Estimates were being considered.

maintained that when these amendments were made it did not commit Parliament.

On sub-head N,

moved on page 45, sub-head N.1, to alter the scale of salary for one “Clerical Assistant” who performs the duties of librarian from “£180—20—260” to “£280—20—360.”

Agreed to.

asked if it was not time they should do away with this department altogether. He was not against co-operation, but these co-operative societies in the Transvaal, and all over the Union, would come under the control of the Land Bank, so that it was scarcely necessary to maintain this separate department, which would be a source of considerable expense. He hoped his hon. friend would take that into consideration.

supported the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, and asked why some arrangement should not be made to compel the cooperative societies to pay the expenses of the department. The taxpayers, he contended, should not be saddled with the expense.

replied that in the first place the vote was £1,000 lower than last year. It would further be dangerous to agree to the hon. member’s proposal. In the Transvaal they had a co-operative law, and as long as this law existed these societies would be run at a loss. He feared that at present the ordinary farmer knew very little about business principles, and for that reason co-operative societies were extremely useful to teach him business methods. He moved on page 45, subhead O.1. to alter the scale of salary for “Assictant Inspectors” from “£180—20—260” to £210—15—£300.”

Agreed to.

said that if the hon. Minister took that view he had nothing against it. He would, however, go a step further. They should get a man that would introduce the credit system among the farmers. When they have a Land Bank they would be very much pressed to devise some system under which money could be let to the poorer section. If the Government changed any of the inspectors in this Department—he did not suggest appointing more inspectors—it should get a man who had had some experience in Europe, especially in Germany, to come out here and teach the farmers the credit system.

regretted that the provision for cattle guards and inspectors of brands had been abolished, as these people had done excellent work in the past and had prevented many abuses. They would now require to have border guards, at a large expense.

supported the previous speaker. Dipping and fencing were useless unless they had brands, especially in the neighbourhood of locations.

asked whether the practice of sending down branding officers from the Transvaal to the Transkei was still being carried on and whether care was taken, when these officers were sent down, that they should be acquainted with the language of the people in the Transkei.

said the system of branding cattle was not being continued in the Transkei. As regarded the Inspector of Brands, he held that from the standpoint of economy it was impossible to proceed with this. If hon. members wished to see these inspectors of brands, it would have to be made compulsory for farmers to brand their cattle, but it was impossible for the Government to continue to have a small army of officials of this kind, and impossible to confine the law to the Transvaal.

said it was necessary that there should be a law regulating the branding of cattle, for branding as now done destroyed the value of the hides when they were tanned.

thought the Government should not economise in the matter of dry farming. He pointed out what was being done in this respect in other countries, and urged that the vote should be increased. Mr. Du Toit, the dry land expert, who was doing good work, should receive a far larger salary. An economy of £2,000 here was a false economy.

On sub-head R, £27,012,

moved on page 47, sub-head R.1, to alter the scale of salary for the “Superintendent” from “£450—20—550” to “£500 —20—600.”

Agreed to.

On sub-head S, £3,249,

hoped that Government would drop the cold storage business. There was a loss of £2,917 at Maritzburg on this account.

said it was intended not to proceed with this next year. They would not have gone on with it this year but for the pressure brought to bear by Natal.

said that last year Parliament impressed upon the Hon. the Prime Minister to make up his mind what his policy was on that question throughout the Union. He (Mr. Wyndham) objected to Field-cornets in the Transvaal earning £200 a year, and Field-cornets in the Free State earning another sum, and Field-cornets in the Cape being under an entirely different system. The hon. Minister was asked for a policy to govern the Field-cornets throughout the Union, and the only answer they got was that as soon as the session ended the Prime Minister went to Pretoria and appointed Field-cornets for the Transvaal for a period of three years. That was not the right way to treat the House. Proceeding, the hon. member said he wanted to know what the Right Hon. the Prime Minister had done in the case of Mr. Peter Delanay Swart, and what he did when any of his followers kicked over the traces.

said he knew Field-cornets were the hon. member’s “bete noir.” There was a mistake on the Estimates, as there were only 55 Field-cornets left. He had last year issued a circular that Field-cornets should not take part in politics. But why did the hon. member pick out Field-cornets? Why did he not say something about what happened during the recent elections, when trains were decorated with “Vote for So-and-so”? He had expressed his opinion as to Field-cornets not taking part in politics, and could do no more. He had to appoint Field-cornets every three years, according to law, and had even taken legal advice on the matter.

said he would like to ask the Prime Minister whether it was not a recommendation of the Civil Service Commission that Field-cornets should be removed from the Agricultural Department? His opinion was that it was a most improper thing for a Field-cornet to be a scab inspector. It was unfair to the scab inspector proper. These Field-cornets lived amongst their relations, and in the ordinary course of events, being human, how could they be expected to enforce the regulations amongst their friends?

said the hon. member did not know what he was talking about. The Field-cornets were good men, and able men. They were landed proprietors, and it was not right to come here and insult such people.

said the Prime Minister could make any attack he liked on him, but he (Mr. Struben) was there to do his duty. He had never said a word about the character of Field-cornets, but he knew several bad ones.

Name them.

I won’t in this House, but I will do so privately. They are not doing their duty, they are not earning their money, and are a disgrace to the country.

Nonsense.

said it was unwise to put the work of scab inspection in the hands of men who had to carry out their duties in districts where their friends and relations lived.

said the Transvaal Act made Field-cornets scab inspectors. What the hon. member had said was untrue, and he had not retrenched a single scab inspector to appoint a Field-cornet. The people they had retrenched were temporary assistants of the Field-cornets. The hon. member did not know what he was talking about.

said if the hon. Prime Minister made a definite statement like that he would accept it, but he still thought it very unwise.

said there was a misunderstanding. The head of the sheep division, Mr. Enslin, explained that the change took place in the Transvaal and Free State. Afterwards there was a further explanation that it was not to be put into force in the Free State. It was absolutely impossible for these men to efficiently discharge their duties as scab inspectors. It could not be expected of them for the pay they got. They could not expect a man to do anything against his own friends. Therefore it was not a desirable thing to impose these duties upon Field-cornets.

desired some information with regard to the expenditure of £7,000 upon improving the feather industry. As the ostrich farmers were the wealthiest in the country, he did not see why this expenditure should not be borne by themselves.

hoped the Prime Minister would agree to report progress, as he believed that several members desired to speak upon the Barbary ostriches.

said as he understood the birds were at Grootfontein, when they came to the vote for the College there they could raise the matter then.

asked if the birds were likely to remain there until they reached that vote, as they had a habit of trekking and losing themselves. (Laughter.)

replied that the £7,000 was the money spent for the purchase of these ostriches from Barbary. Mr. Schoeman and Mr. Sabie expressed the opinion that the birds were far better than they expected. People were disappointed at there not being more than 18 full-grown birds, but as regarded the feathers, these were excellent. The remaining ostriches were chicks, and could not at present be used.

said the reason why he raised the question was that he had been informed that the birds came 900 miles south of Barbary, and were therefore not Barbary birds at all. He maintained that if it were reasonable for the House to be asked to vote £7,000 for birds which were not true Barbary ostriches, it would be just as reasonable for the Prime Minister to move that progress be reported. (Laughter.)

Progress was then reported, and leave obtained to resume at the night sitting.