from inhabitants of Boshof, for appointment of a Field-cornet.

from W. W. Rodger, General Post Office.

from George Butler, clerk, Transportation Department, South African Railways.

from residents of Hartebeestfontein, Krugersdorp, for railway construction.

from Anne Clinton, teacher.

Proposed issue of leases to Zululand storekeepers of portions of the Zululand Native Reserves.

These papers were referred to the Select Committee on Native Affairs.

as Chairman, brought up the fourth report of the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants, and Gratuities, as follows:

Your committee, having considered the petition of the Right Rev. Bishop Rooney, Referred to them, beg to report that in their opinion the subject matter of the petition does not fall within the scope of the terms of reference to the committee.

J. W. SAUER, Chairman.

Committee Rooms, House of Assembly, 6th April, 1911.

wished to know if the House would have an opportunity of discussing the matter?

The hon. member can raise that question on moving a substantive motion. If he wishes to take the matter further, his proper course is to give notice of motion.

The matter then dropped.

moved that leave be given to the Select Committee on Public Accounts to bring up an amended Bill in the case of the Floating Debt and Public Works Loan Bill, the subject matter of which had been referred to the committee.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

desired Mr. Speaker’s ruling on the points, firstly, as to whether it was competent for the Select Committee on Standing Rules and Orders to submit the report printed on page 1,058 of the Votes and Proceedings, in view of the fact that Vote No. 5, House of Assembly, had already been passed by the Committee of Supply on the Estimates; and, secondly, what course should now be adopted to bring the report under the consideration of this House?

I regret that the Hon. the Minister of Finance has not given me notice of this question. I take it that the committee is perfectly competent to bring up the recommendations with regard to the salaries, as the amounts voted on the Main Estimates are constantly increased on the Supplementary Estimates. As to what is the proper course to be adopted to bring the matter before the House, I take it that as the report has been laid upon the table of the House, it now rests with the Government, if they so desire, to give effect there to on the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure.

asked whether the House had not an opportunity to discuss that report? (Hear, hear.) It was a very unusual thing. Here was a report brought up from the Select Committee as an order of the Government. It was an expression of opinion by the Select Committee, and surely the proper course was for the House to discuss that report. It was throwing an onus-upon the Government which was an unfair one, because if the Government did not bring up the Supplementary Estimates, it would be said: that they had flouted the Select Committee, and if they did bring it up, it might be said that they had prejudged the opinion of that House.

The right hon. member for Victoria West has asked me a question. This report was laid upon the table of the House yesterday by the Speaker in his capacity as Chairman of this committee. The Speaker was not present at the whole of the sittings of the Select Committee; and the Speaker cannot move for the adoption or the rejection of this report. The report is laid on the table of the House by the Speaker in his official capacity, and it rests with the Government to take action upon that report, or otherwise.

said that unless the House approved of that expenditure it could not be passed, and that seemed sufficient. If the matter was not brought before the House no action would be taken. He hoped that Mr. Merriman would be satisfied with that. No payments would be made unless the House approved of it.

said he agreed with Mr. Merriman that it would be fairer to everybody to say that that report should come before the House in the ordinary way, and that it should be adopted. The Government should get the approval of the House. He ventured to say that the Speaker’s ruling was absolutely correct and the procedure was correct, but under the circumstances it was rather awkward.

I would suggest that, under these circumstances, the Right Hon. the Prime Minister should give notice for the adoption of this report at any time. He may give notice now or to-morrow.

said that he thought they should not raise a debate on that question at that stage. The Government intended bringing the matter before the House in due course.

said that when a similar recommendation had been before the House it had been stated that the report would lie on the table for 24 hours, and that if no exception were taken, it would (the hon. member was understood to say) be agreed to They did not want the same thing now. They wanted to take the full sense of the House upon that recommendation.

I may point out that the Speaker himself personally was not connected with that report. It is a delicate matter. The Speaker has put it on the table of the House, and has left the matter entirely in the hands of the Government, and therefore, that course was not stated by the Speaker, so that any member might not forego any opinion he might like to express on the matter.

hoped that the Minister would see his way to reduce the stamp duty on life assurance policies. If the company paid the duty it debited the policy-holders. Secondly, he would like to point out the undesirability of having a progressive rate. To him it was difficult to understand why’ there was a progressive rate in some cases and no progressive rate in others. For instance, there was a progressive rate in regard to brokers’ notes, leases, and policies of fire and life assurance, but there was no such rate in regard to bills of lading, partnership deeds, and transfer deeds. He should like the Minister to explain.

said that he had been asked by the general manager of one company, who represented the largest insurance companies, to state that they were perfectly satisfied with the tariff. (Ministerial cheers.)

said he had been instructed by large life insurance companies to say that they would like to see the rates reduced. One company went so far as to say that it would be desirable to have them abolished altogether. To follow up what the hon. member for Dundee had illustrated, he wished to say that the rates were inconsistent. A penny stamp was paid on a £50 policy; a sixpenny stamp on a £100 policy; and a half-crown stamp on a £500 policy. Therefore if a man took out ten policies of £50 a-piece, the stamp duty would only amount to 10d., but if he took out a £500 policy he would have to pay a half-crown stamp. But there were greater discrepancies in regard to larger amounts. On a £5,000 policy the stamp duty was £3 15s., but if he took out ten policies of £500 a-piece, the total stamp duty was only £2 10s.; and if he took out 50 policies of £100 a-piece, the stamp duty was only £1 5s.

said that that was quite true. That was exactly what he was going to point out. The present tariff would make a person take more policies of smaller denomination. He thought it was much better to have an uniform rate right through. That was a liberal policy. He did not care at striking at the man who insured largely ih this matter. People who insured for large amounts could, as the hon. member had said, alter their policies, and so get round the stamp duties.

said he spoke on behalf of those who insured for the small amounts. He appealed to the Minister to exempt policies of £300 and £500.

said that if the Government exempted policies of £300 and £500, it would mean that the rich people would take out such policies. (Hear, hear.) His object in bringing forward this graduated tariff was to encourage small people to insure themselves at a nominal rate of duty to the State. It had been said that people who had, large insurance policies would cut them up, but he was told by the insurance people that they were satisfied with his proposals. He quite acknowledged that a person who insured for £10,000 might take out 100 policies, but he did not think it was likely.

supported the tariff. He said he presided at a meeting of the Chamber of Commerce, at which the matter was thoroughly gone into. There were representatives of the various insurance companies present, and they expressed themselves as satisfied with the Minister’s proposals. He did not agree with the hon. member for Dundee. Personally, he thought the stamps were moderate.

pointed out that the insurance companies, who favoured the stamp duties, did not have to pay them.

moved: In paragraph (3) to omit “damages,” and to substitute “damage,” and to omit the final words “renewal thereof,” and to insert “third-party insurance ”; in paragraph (4), before the first word “insurance,” to insert “policy of,” and after the same word “insurance” to insert “or renewal thereof.” and, in the second line, to omit “third-party insurance”; and in the provision following (7), first line thereof, to omit the words “yearly funds.” and to substitute the words, “less than a yearly period.”

Agreed to

On item 21, receipt,

thought the tax of 6d. per £100 on fixed deposit was too heavy. As the Treasurer would know, large sums were often placed on fixed deposit for a few months, and then withdrawn. The 6d. looked email, but, in reality, it was very heavy under the circumstances.

said he thought that no stamp should be required on a receipt for exactly a sovereign. He considered it would be sufficient to require a stamp on a receipt for an amount exceeding a sovereign. He also urged that receipts given by hospitals and charitable institutions for donations and subscriptions should be exempted. He moved accordingly.

said that in regard to these taxes, he rather thought he had erred on the side of generosity. With, reference to fixed deposits, he considered that if a man could afford to leave a large sum of money on fixed deposit, instead of using it for, say, the development of the country or the increase of his business, he surely could not object to such a small tax as 6d. per £100. He might mention that in the Cape the tax was 1s., so that he had reduced it by a half. In regard to the stamp on receipts for small amounts, he thought that would tend to make the poorer people careful, and so keep them out of the Law Courts. As to the proposed exemption of hospitals and charitable institutions, he would, think these institutions would be only too glad to pay the State a penny for every subscription of a pound they received.

said it was all very well to say that the tax was being reduced in the Cape, but that meant so much more for the people in the other Provinces to pay by way of taxation. This might be only a small increase, but in the aggregate all these little increases were going to mean a good deal to the people who had to pay. He was glad that the Cape was to get reductions, but it seemed to him to be one of those cases in which the other Provinces were called upon to rejoice, but were forbidden to lament. (Laughter.)

said that when he heard the hon. member (Mr. Quinn) talking in that way, he wished the hon. member would remember what the burdens of the people of the Cape were. They were all paying on their farms for the education of the children of the hon. member land his neighbours; they paid half the cost of education in this country. And did the hon. member know that, when he came down with his motor and dashed about the roads here, those roads were paid for out of the taxation of the miserable farmer on the land? And up in Johannesburg they made his beautiful parks, and tarred his roads—land then he begrudged them a penny off a receipt stamp. (Laughter.)

said it would be very interesting if the hon. member would tell them in what way he contributed to the education of the Transvaal children, or to the tarring of the Johannesburg roads.

said that, of course, they were under Union now, and it was the taxable unit that had to pay. In the Cape they had 600,000 taxable units; in the Transvaal they had only 300,000. He did not wish to be provincial, but really the hon. member’s observations hurt him. (Laughter.)

said the hon. member’s remarks concerning the Johannesburg roads were quite out of place, for there was one place in the Union besides the Cape Colony where the inhabitants paid for the roads, and that was the Witwatersrand; which, from end to end, was under Municipal government.

Mr. M. Alexander’s amendment to require a stamp only to a receipt of over £1 was negatived.

said he hoped the Treasurer would accept the amendment to exempt receipts given by charitable institutions for donations and subscriptions.

The amendment giving exemption in the case of a receipt by any hospital for donations or subscriptions was negatived.

said he was glad to be able to state that, in response to the representations made to him by a deputation the other day, he should move certain amended duties on leases and agreements of lease. He pointed out that the scale charged in England was much higher than his proposals, but declared that he was anxious to meet the taxpayer as far as possible, and he had agreed to reduce the tariff very considerably under sub-head (2). Under the original proposal they proposed to levy a marge of 10s. per cent, on the aggregate amount of the rent payable during the currency of the lease on all leases of not less than 10, and not exceeding 15, years. Now, he proposed to extend this to leases up to 20 years. It was also intended to make the duty on leases of 20 years and over 15s., and strike out the rest of the tariff under that head. He was also willing to go further, and move a stipulation that if in any ease it could be shown to the satisfaction of the Government that the aggregate amount of rental, payable in respect of any lease, exceeded the selling price of the property leased, the stamp duty should be calculated upon the amount of the selling price, and no more. In regard to cessions, on which it was originally proposed to levy a duty of one-third he was willing to substitute a uniform rate of 5s. (Hear, hear.) He moved: In paragraph (2) in the penultimate line on that page, to omit “15” before “years” and to substitute “20”; on the following page, line 3. to omit “15” before “years” and to substitute “20 ”; after “years” in the same line to omit “but not exceeding 20 years,” and in line 5 tb omit all the words from “If the lease” down to the end of paragraph (2),. land to substitute: “If in any case it be shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioner that the aggregate amount of rent or other consideration on which duty is payable exceeds the full selling value of the property, leased duty shall be payable only on the amount of such full selling value”; and in paragraph (4) to omit the words in the: column, “Amount of Duty,” and to substitute “£0 5s. Od,”

said that the Minister had certainly made great concessions, but he regretted that they had had no notice of the amendment, so that they would have been able to Consider what the effect would be. He found, on a casual computation, that at the present time in the Orange Free State the duty payable on a 20 years’ lease, with a rental of £200 a month, was £240. The rate for the Free State would be the same as they paid today. In the Transvaal, however, on a similar lease they would at the present time have to pay only £120, so that under the proposed scale the duty would be doubled. Again, take the case of a 21 years’ lease, with a rental of £200 a month. The tax on such a lease would be £378, under the higher scale of 15s. He would ask the Minister to consider whether that could not be adjusted in some measure. In Natal he understood that a 20 years’ lease, such as he had mentioned, would have to bear a stamp of 1s. There was, as they would see, going to be an enormous increase in the taxation on leases, and he submitted that they should, have some little time in order to consider the matter.

said that the Minister had gone further than he promised the other day, and had given them more than he (Mr. Neser) expected he would. He withdrew his amendment.

pointed out that some complication might arise in Natal under the clause as at present drawn. At present, on a long lease, they had to pay a stamp duty of 1s.; but such a lease must be registered, and, in order to obtain registration, transfer duty must be paid.

said the amendment would still leave the duty on leases at an exorbitantly high rate. (Hear, hear.) Why should a man who had ten years’ lease pay a stamp duty on a sum representing the whole value of the property? In England the stamp duty on a lease for 20 years at a rental of £20 was 2s.; here it would be £2.

said a good deal of inconvenience would be caused by leases, even for only two or three months, having to be taken to the Civil Commissioner’s Office to have the stamp cancelled.

said Mr. Duncan had forgotten the law he (Mr. Duncan) prepared in the Transvaal some time ago, in which he said that if a lease were to be made for a period of years the stamp duty was to be assessed on the aggregate amount of the lease. He (Mr. Hull) was following the hon. member’s admirable example.

said the Minister of Finance had gone a long way to meeting some of the more extreme cases. The man who would pay the stamp duty would not be the property owner, but the man who took the lease, notwithstanding what the law said to the contrary. He would only add that the fact remained that as far as the Transvaal went, they were being levelled up again. (Laughter.)

said he proposed levying the stamp duty half on the landlord and half on the tenant. He was quite prepared to say that it should not be lawful for the landlord to contract himself out for that. (Hear, hear.)

said he had not a copy of the latest English Stamp Duty Act by him. However, if on that occasion he happened to express views different from those he expressed on some other occasion, he was not the only one whose views had changed. (Laughter, and “Hear, hear.”)

said under the English Act the stamp duty on a lease up to 35 years was 1 per cent, for the whole period; 100 years, 3 per cent. for the whole period, and for over 100 years 6 per cent, for the whole period.

The amendments moved by the Minister of Finance were agreed to.

reported that the committee had agreed to certain resolutions, and asked leave to bring up a report on the following day.

Agreed to.

moved: This committee recommends: That for the purpose of extending throughout the Union the duties at present leaded on cigarettes in the Province of the Cape of Good Hope, there shall be charged, levied, and collected throughout the Union for the benefit of the Consolidated Revenue Fund, subject to such conditions as may be laid down in any law passed during the present session of Parliament, the duties herein set forth, that is to say: (a) On all cigarettes manufactured in the Union, whether made from tobacco grown or produced therein, or from tobacco imported therein, or from a mixture of Union grown and imported tobaccos an excise duty for every one-half ounce net weight or fraction thereof—one halfpenny; (b) on all cigarettes imported into the Union and delivered for consumption therein a duty (over and above the duty payable under the Customs laws) for every one-half ounce net weight or fraction thereof—one halfpenny; and there shall further be levied in respect of all premises in the Union wherein cigarettes are manufactured a licence duty of one pound.

moved that section (a) be deleted,

hoped that that would be agreed to, because planters felt the tax would oppress them. The industry had been doing well for one year only, and it was hard that they should stifle it at that stage.

said that he was surprised to hear the hon. member say that, for he thought he would be delighted that such a tax should be imposed, coming, as he did, from a district which produced the finest tobacco in the country. He could not conceive a tax more justifiable than a tax on tobacco, and he hoped that the Minister of Finance would not move one jot. (Hear, hear.) They had, he proceeded, seen the same gentlemen from the tobacco factories going about the lobby of the House saying, no doubt, that if the tax were imposed, the industry would be ruined. Well, they had had the tax for two years in the Cape, and had the industry been ruined? No. The tax had worked splendidly, and more local tobacco had been consumed than before. A halfpenny tax had also been put on the imported cigarette, which was an additional tax. Dr. Hewat had drawn a gloomy picture of what would happen if a cigarette tax were imposed, but what had happened? The tax had set the people to work, and made them think; and since that tax had been imposed, tobacco-growing had been started in the Stellenbosch district—some of the best cigarette tobacco they had.

said he agreed with the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Merriman) in regard to the imposition of an excise on tobacco, and his objection to the proposals of the Minister of Finance was that they were taxing the best product, and leaving the inferior product alone. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Merriman) had said that it was only after the tax was imposed in the Cape that the growing of Turkish tobacco in the Stellenbosch district was seriously taken in hand. Well, the right hon. gentleman might live in Stellenbosch, but he was not of Stellenbosch, because the farmers who grew the tobacco were very much alarmed at the imposition of the tax. He went on to quote figures to show that the production of tobacco in the Stellenbosch district increased from 1,000 to 60,000 1b. in 1910, and said that cigarettes which were made from that tobacco were sold in the Transvaal, Free State and Natal, where no duty was paid. The Cape factories were able, by their increased sales in other parts of the Union where there was no tax, to make up for the loss in this Province. Under the Government’s proposals, however, they would not be able to do that, as the tax would be extended throughout the Union. He considered that the cigarette industry already contributed largely through Customs to the taxation of the country. For instance, duty was paid on the cigarette boxes and paper.

said he was surprised that the opposition to this tax came from hon. members living around Cape Town. If they had come from Johannesburg he could have understood it. His hon. and patriotic friends appeared to be anxious to go on under the halfpenny tax, and not have it extended to the rest of South Africa. He must say that was a most extraordinary attitude to take up.

said that the tax imposed on cigarette leaf would amount to 1s. 10d. per 1b. The tobacco industry had been fostered amid great difficulty, and he contended that a great tobacco excise was undesirable.

objected to a local industry being hampered with this tax, whilst nothing was done to tax the imported article. The Transvaal objected to the tax.

objected that the tax would fall on the cigarette tobacco only. He wanted to know why it had been singled out. It was the best tobacco they produced, and it was the only tobacco they could export. He denied that the tax had encouraged planters to grow a better article.

said that experience had taught them that no matter how heavily they taxed articles like drink and tobacco, the consumption did not diminish. In England there was a heavy tax on tobacco, but he knew of no country where more tobacco was consumed.

thought it was essential to protect local industries, and he was not prepared, therefore, to vote for the proposals. They should tax imports.

declared that no matter how much they taxed tobacco, and especially cigarettes, they would not discourage the smoker. He would have his smoke at any price. He thought, therefore, the tax would do no harm. It was not unpopular in the Cape, where it had not interfered with the industry.

said he could not accept the amendment. He was sure that hon. members who supported the amendment could not be aware that cigarettes imported from oversea now paid a duty of no less than 13s. 6d. per 1,000. Now, his proposal was to make the duty on imported cigarettes 17s. 8d. per 1,000, while the locally-made cigarettes would pay a duty of 4s. 2d. per 1,000. There was, therefore, a protection in favour of the South African manufactured cigarette five times the amount of the proposed duty.

The amendment was negatived.

The motion was agreed to.

reported that a resolution had been come to, and asked leave to bring up the report to-morrow.

Agreed to.

referred to the question of the non-completion of the Benoni-Welgedacht railway. He said that there was a departmental arrangement whereby certain mining companies should contribute towards the cost of the construction of the line, and the Minister told them last year that it was not his intention to proceed with the line until the Albu group had paid £10,000. Well, that was a purely departmental arrangement. Parliament had voted the money for the railway unconditionally, and the much-needed extension ought not to be held up because of the failure of the department and of the mining people to agree.: Could not the department go on with the railway, and then recover the money in a court of law, or could not the Minister of Railways take a leaf out of the book of the Minister of Posts, and institute differential railway rates on the line so far as concerned the Albu group? The whole district was suffering as a result of the deadlock between the Railway Department and the mining companies. There was another matter of a branch line in the Springs district. The people in that district felt themselves aggrieved by the action, or rather non-action, of the Minister in regard to the construction of a line between Springs and the Brakpan-Witbank line.

rose to a point of order, and said that the proper place to discuss this matter was when additional lines were discussed.

What railway is the hon. member referring to?

The railway that I am asking Parliament to sanction has not been passed.

If it is a new railway it does not come within the scope of this debate.

I will bring that matter up later, as the Minister suggests. Proceeding, he pleaded for better accommodation on the railways for third-class passengers, and separate accommodation for whites and blacks. He urged that the lower-paid workers on the railways were entitled to some consideration in view of the million and a half sterling which was available for allocation. While congratulating the Minister on having decided to run the railway bookstalls departmentally, he expressed a hope that the rate of pay given the assistants would be such as would enable them to live decently. Mr. Madeley also strongly urged the Minister not to countenance any attempt to deprive the railway workers of their rights of citizenship.

said that the somewhat thin House, he thought, must not be taken as an evidence of the sense that the Parliament of this country had of the importance of the subject that they had before them now. If they took the revenue and expenditure together, it amounted to twenty millions sterling, which was a very serious responsibility for this or, indeed, any country to discuss. He should like to draw the attention of the House to one or two matters: first of all, that these railways, long as they had been running, were now, particularly, in an experimental stage. We were making two great experiments with the railways. One experiment was putting them under a Board. I was a great misfortune that time had not been found by the Government, considering the multiplicity of the Bills it had introduced —some of which could very well be spared —(hear, hear)—to introduce a measure constituting the Railway Board and describing its functions. (Cheers.) It was nothing but the exquisite tact of his hon. friend that had enabled the machine to go rumbling along as well as it had done up to the present time. He believed that in every colony where this experiment had been tried Acts of Parliament had been passed dealing with the matter. But we rested ourselves, wholly and solely, upon one clause in the Act of Union, and we had to trust to the good sense and tact of his hon. friend to hammer out his relations with those three gentlemen who were put in a position of extraordinary responsibility. In Some directions he thought they had rather gone a little be yond what was safe for the country. That was in financial matters, but in other directions, as far as he could gather, things had gone on pretty much as they used to go on —that the Minister managed the railways and the Board fulfilled the functions it ought to fill, that of a screen. (Laughter.) He wished to impress on the Government the necessity of defining the relations of the Board to the country, to the Parliament, and, above all, to the Government. (Hear, hear.) The other experiment we were trying was more or less a technical experiment; that was the introduction over the whole of the Union of the transportation system. It had been done without consulting Parliament, but the subject might well be discussed by Parliament, because the system introduced new and most important changes.

It was in force on the Central South African Railways.

That was only a section of the system, and although it might work well there it might not work quite so well elsewhere. Proceeding, Mr. Merriman said the system had worked well in America. Under the transportation system one gave a man almost despotic powers, and one judged him by results. That was all very well where private railways were concerned, for if a man did not show results they turned him out, and put in somebody else. But we had a Civil Service, and if its members were discharged or disrated, they were not slow in coming to that House where they had a large number of sympathisers. We were trying this new system with our hands tied. If they got a good man it would work well, but if they got a bad man, it might work tremendous injury to the interests of the railways. As it was, some people now complained of trains running more slowly, and of passengers being inconvenienced, and so on, but the best of systems—as they saw by the Union Company—;Would have complaints made against it. It was not only shipping companies that were complained of as being tyrannical and a source of inconvenience to the public. However, the transportation system should closely be watched, and should be brought under review next session. Some of the railway changes we had had since Union were worth noting. There had been a general shifting and changing of rates, mostly on the downward grade, except in the case of the poor agriculturist, who— being by common consent the wealthiest and most substantial man in the country— had had his rates rather raised. (Hear, hear.) He had no doubt his hon. friend did not hear the cry of the ill-used race of men who tilled the soil, and no doubt their cries and complaints on the subject did not reach the Minister in his Nirvana, where he sat like the gods beside his nectar. (Laughter.) He hoped the last words on rates had not been said. He knew we had low agricultural rates. They had heard that blessed phrase, “ontwikkelen” the country. Raising the agricultural rates was not the way to “ontwikkel” the country. The Minister would do well to reconsider same of the agricultural rates which impeded the interchanges of agricultural produce. (Hear, hear.) Then there were the differential coal rates. He was surprised to find that special coal rates—absolutely the worst feature of the rebate system— were given to one company.

Not to one company.

To one coal area. I am not throwing stones at my hon. friend. I can see the advantages of this thing, only at a time when we are striking at a great enterprise which is alleged to do this very thing, it does seem a little odd that we should be doing it ourselves. (Cheers.) Continuing, Mr. Merriman said they had had a very interesting arid informative exposition of the effect of coal rates on the prosperity of one of our principal ports by the hon. member for Umlazi. There was a good deal in what the hon. member said, but, unfortunately, he spoke at a time when railway matters were not specially before the House.

Out of your own people.

You took it out of our pockets. (Cheers and dissent.) You did not pay us for the work we did on the same scale as you paid yourselves. (Cries of “Oh.”)

What about the Conacher report?

That distinctly showed that we did not get anything like a fair share. We made a profit, and a very small profit. The fact is that the gigantic profit made by the C.S.A.R. was got out of their own people. They were bleeding their own people, and at the same time you were telling the very same people that it was the coastal colonies that were doing it. (Hear, hear, and cries of dissent.) You had not the manliness to come forward and say, “We are accumulating these large profits,” but you said, “It is those infamous coastal colonies.” You raised prejudice against the Cape and Natal in order to conceal the gigantic profits you were making out of these people. There is no doubt that large profits were made out of the traffic in the Transvaal legitimately. I cannot help thinking when I allude to the C.S.A.R, of the suicidal policy of the Cape Colony.

said they were all watching with great anxiety the experiments in the transportation system, and he thought the Minister should have given them some information as to how it was working. In America there had been found to be many drawbacks in the system. There was the same danger here. Was it certain that the change would be advantageous? He hoped the Minister would give them some information as to the working of the transportation system since it had been in operation. Until they had definite results before them they must regard this still as an experiment which required to be carefully watched. He thought that there was a serious danger that this particular form of centralisation would involve great delay in making good defects, such as, for instance, arose from washaways, and so on. That was one of the risks of the system, and the experiment was one which required to be watched jealously. Then, with regard to the total vote of £1,300,000 for the ordinary maintenance of rolling-stock and locomotives, he noticed there was a provision of £690,000 for the maintenance of locomotives, and a sum of £249,000 for depreciation (renewals). Well, that was obviously not being spent by the department. He hoped the Minister would give the House details of what he proposed to do in connection with these items, which made up the sum of £1,300,000. Then, with regard to the sum of £220,000, said to be allowed for the reduction of the rates in the Natal Province, he did not know, and had no moans of ascertaining what the loss through the reduction of the passenger rates in Natal was, but so far as the goods traffic was concerned, he had papers to show that for distances of over a mile, there had been an increase in the rates under every head but one. In regard to candles, the increase was as great as 60 per cent. He hoped the Minister would explain what he meant when he said that the reduction of the railway rates in Natal had cost the railway over £200,000, when, as a matter of fact, so far as the most important articles carried up-country were concerned, there had been actually an increase in the rates charged.

said that the South-eastern districts of the Free State were almost without railway communication. Ox-wagon transport was excessively dear. On cement the rates amounted to nearly twice the invoice value of the article. In his constituency they had to pay 30s. for cement which, at the coast, cost 7s. 6d. Galvanised iron was another large article of commerce. From East London to Aliwal it was charged 120s. per ton, whereas Bethlehem people had it carried for them at 60s. per ton. At one time the Aliwal merchants had their goods sent up by ox-wagon, because that was cheaper than employing the railway to do the work, but Government had put a stop to that traffic. He would like to know how the Minister had applied the £465,000 that had been sacrificed in order to lower rates, particularly in the Cape Province. The excessive railway rates had hitherto borne with especial severity on articles such as galvanised iron and cement, which were required: in the development of agriculture. In Rouxville they wished to start large irrigation works, but the material required for construction was unobtainable except at exorbitant prices. He regretted the fact that it was the mining representatives who had clamoured for district contributions to branch lines, because many years ago farmers had agreed to the construction of industrial railway lines. He advocated the revision of the mealie rates. In his constituency there were vast quantities of mealies awaiting transport, but, though there was a large demand for the article in the Cape, they could not be sent there at present owing to the prohibitive rates.

said it, was impossible to discuss the railway estimates without the report of the General Manager before them. Failing the full report, an interim one might have been presented to the House. (Hear, hear.) The Railway Board itself had laid down that it should present an annual report to Parliament. He was afraid that the Minister had overlooked that arrangement. As it was, they must be content with a rough approximation, and with the Estimates before them. There was a balance of over four millions on the working of the railways, and if the railways were worked by a company they could pay a dividend of 6 per cent. But £1,300,000 was put down as depreciation, and ordinary shareholders would see that that large sum was not put down as depreciation. In that case the dividend would amount to 7 per cent. The South Africa Act, he was aware, did provide for setting apart funds for depreciation, although he disagreed with the item in the form it was placed before the House in the Estimates. Permanent works were debited with the sum of £307,000 as depreciation, which in the usual meaning of the word did not occur with railways, for as a rule the longer a railway was in existence the more traffic it carried, because of the increased population of the country it served.

The hon. member was still speaking, when in accordance with the sessional order of March 27,

The debate was adjourned until the following day.

called attention to the tax levied on coolies in Natal.

Business was suspended at 6 p.m.

said, that the Natal Act of 1895 imposed a yearly pass or licence on every Indian who did not reindenture after his term of service had expired, or who did not return to India. Well, he was informed that that was not intended to apply to women and children, but it had been made to apply to, them, and great hardship had been caused, a man having to pay not only for himself, but £3 also for his wife and for any daughter over 13 years or a son over 16. Now that offended one’s sense of justice, because these people had been brought here for the benefit of the country. Then, in 1910, an Act was passed which provided, that women might be exempted On the, grounds of ill-health or old age, or fop other good reason. The discretion was vested in the Magistrate. The complaint was that Magistrates had not exercised the discretion properly. Cases had arisen in which feeble old women, who were entirely unable to pay this tax, had been brought up and imprisoned for their failure to pay. He pleaded that the Act should be administered in a fair spirit. He contended that, with the stopping of the indenture system, this tax ought to cease.

said that the proportion of Indians who had settled in Natal since 1900 had been steadily decreasing year by year. Those Indians who had come out of their indentures had, to the extent of over 50 per cent., reindentured, and to the extent of over 40 per cent, had returned to India. These people had had no injustice done to them in the sense of having had something sprung upon them which they thought did not exist. Adequate notice was given to them about the imposition of the £3 licence. The people concerned did not seem to regard it as an injustice. Many of those who had come from India were people who had returned to reindenture themselves. The injustice referred to by the hon. member (Mr. Schreiner) really did not exist. Mr. Clayton explained that in regard to the taxation of Indian women, discretion was given to the Magistrates to deal with cases of genuine poverty, where the licence fee had not been paid

asked how the item for Asiatic immigration was made up?

said that the injustice of the tax was shown in the large number of people who went to India at the end of their indentures. Act 19, 1910, he submitted, had not been properly carried out, especially in reference to the licences for women.

further explained the position in relation to the Act No. 17, 1895.

said that the point was that the indenture system in Natal was being done away with, but the old tax, which was an incident of that system, remained. Upon the general question of immigration he did not intend to speak at great length, because a Bill was before the House dealing with the subject, and he took it, speaking theoretically, that hon. members would have an opportunity of debating the matter fully in committee. The Prime Minister that day gave notice to move that the House sit on Saturday morning and on Tuesday evening, and he took it that that was a sign that the session was rapidly coming to a close.

Oh, no.

At all events the House is entitled to know what is the intention of the Government in regard to this Bill. Proceeding, he said that personally he would not be at all sorry if they did not proceed with the Bill. In fact, he did not think anybody would be, not even the Minister himself. There had been one universal echo of dissatisfaction throughout the Union with regard to the Bill. (Cries of “No, no.”)

The Bill is not before the committee.

said that he was entitled to refer to the general question of immigration, and he hoped the Minister would give the House some definite information as to what were the intentions Of the Government. There were two matters in regard to administration to which he would like to draw the attention of the House. The first was in connection with the very unfortunate arrangements made at the detention depot at the Docks. During the debate on the last Estimates the Minister promised that he would inspect the place and effect improvements. Nothing, however, had been done. Not only were the conditions most unsatisfactory, but the charge was exorbitant. He would give an instance. An immigrant was detained for one day, and was charged the magnificent sum of £3, 17s. for one day’s compulsory detention. The Minister said that the charge varied. If it happened that three or four immigrants were detained they shared the expense. He hoped that some active steps would be taken to provide more fitting accommodation and to provide against the very exorbitant charges which were made at present. The second point was that the Government should appoint an Advisory Board to advise the Minister, who was a thousand miles away, in certain cases. If such an appointment were made there would be a great deal of satisfaction amongst those who were at present most dissatisfied with the administration of the Immigration Act. Another point was that the Minister promised that in finding out whether a man was undesirable or not there should be some other ground for preventing his landing besides the question of him being an alien. The good intentions of the Minister, however, had not been carried out. Apparently he left the matter entirely in the hands of officials, who raised the question of a man being an alien in every case which came before the Court.

said that he did not want to go into the whole matter of immigration policy, for he had himself strongly opposed Chinese immigration, but once they let a man come into the country, and he behaved himself like a good citizen, they should treat him fairly and protect him. A Chinaman who had been here for 15 years and had left to go to his country, had returned somewhat later than he had intended, owing to illness, and had been refused admission to the country. That was a man who owned property here. He (Mr. Vosloo) had approached the Administrator of the Cape Province, who stated that the matter was not in his hands, but in those off the Minister of the Interior—it was in August of last year. He (Mr. Vosloo) had communicated with the department, and had received a reply that the matter was under consideration, and that was the last he had heard of the matter. He afterwards found out the papers had been mislaid! Subsequently, he was told the Chinaman would have to go. He thought there was something wrong in the department. He hoped that the Minister would be able to furnish him with some information about the matter.

in replying, said that, in reference to the point raised by the last speaker, the case of the Chinaman in Somerset East, some hon. members might know that as far back as 1904 the Cape Parliament had passed a law, called the Chinese Exclusion Act, which dealt on somewhat severe lines with the introduction of Chinamen into this country. The Government were given power to frame regulations, and one of these regulations was to the effect that Chinamen who were in the country might get permits to go out of it for twelve months; but if they did not return within that time, they would not be considered as entitled to stay in the old Cape Colony. The matter had come before the Supreme Court of the Cape Colony, and it had decided that that was a fair and reasonable period. (Hear, hear.) The very person to whom his hon. friend had referred got a permit to go out of the country; he had stayed away for more than two years, and thereafter made application to come back. The then Colonial Secretary—his (General Smuts’s) predecessor—had decided that he could not come back. (Hear, bear.) Trouble had been taken, not only by Mr. Vosloo, but by his predecessor in the representation of Somerset, to move the Government to open the doors of the Cape Colony to that individual. It was held that it would be a wrong precedent to have done so in that case, because if they bad, they must have admitted other cases. When the case had come before him, such, time had elapsed, and the matter had been so fully gone into by his predecessor, that he was not going to reopen it. (Hear, hear.) What day was the 269th anniversary of the day Van Riebeek landed here, and now they were asked to open the doors of that great Union to Chinamen. Coming to the matter referred to by Mr. Schreiner, General Smuts said that the payment of £3 was for the definite purpose of restricting Indians from coming into Natal, and he saw no reason whatever to interfere with that policy, because he considered it a most salutary one. (Hear, hear.) In that law a certain amount of discretion was given to the magistrate, and Mr. Schreiner had brought to his (General Smuts’s) notice several cases in which he thought the magistrate had dealt harshly. He had inquired into these cases, and he was perfectly satisfied that those women were perfectly well able to pay the £3, and that it was not the case that they were unable to pay. He thought that that law of the country should be carried out, and he would do so. (Hear, hear.) The old Cape Colony had been very happy in not having to deal with the question of Asiatic immigration into South Africa; and now that they were under Union, they had to feel the weight of that problem in other parts of South Africa. It had to be borne; he thought that the committee of Parliament would not grudge any money that was spent in keeping away from these shores undesirable immigrants. There remained the objection of the hon. member for the Castle Division. He first asked what was the intention of the Government with regard to the Immigration Bill. All he (General Smuts) could say was that it was his intention to pass this Bill, or as nearly this Bill as possible. With regard to some of the subordinate points, they would be dealt with more fully when they came to the Bill itself. The hon. member still harped upon the question of the detention depot. If this were obectionable he would try and see if something could not be done to remedy it. A great deal had been made in the past about the Education test; he did not think a scholarly acquaintance with Yiddish, Lithuanian, or other exotic languages was necessary. (Hear, hear.) Sound health and good character went to make good citizenship, and if they had those, they were better equipped for citizenship than exotic scholarship. Personally, he did not want any of these cases to appear before the Law Courts, because the poor immigrant very often found himself saddled with a very heavy bill of costs, and perhaps finally sent back to London.

said he wanted to ask a question. The Minister alluded to Van Riebeek. Well, if Van Riebeek had had his way, this would have boon a Chinese compound, because he did his best to get the Chinese here. (Laughter.) If the Cape House of Assembly had had their way also, they would have filled the Colony with coolies. That was thirty years ago, and he just mentioned the fact to show how opinion changed. He rose, however, for the purpose of asking the Minister the position they would be in with regard to those Indians allowed to enter the Union before July 1? He would; be very sorry to see this country flooded with any more Indians, but he would be glad to know how that affair was going on, and whether a large number of Indians were being Shovelled into the country prior to July 1?

said there were 15,000 or 15,000 applications which the Natal Immigration Board had passed, and which in the ordinary course would have been admitted into Natal, but owing to a number of circumstances in India and elsewhere it was almost impossible to get this number. In fact, it seemed that only a small proportion of the 15,000 would ever be likely to land upon these shores.

asked what was the meaning of the £950 for “grants-in-aid, Indian Immigration Trust Board”?

said the Board had to see that coolies whose indentures had expired were repatriated. A certain amount of expense was incurred in that way, but, as against that, the Government had appropriated certain revenue, which exceeded the amount of the grant.

The sub-head was agreed to.

desired to call attention to the Museum in Cape Town. As a matter of fact the Museum buildings in Cape Town were very much overcrowded. Some of the specimens could not be unpacked, because there was no space to show them. There were two Large mammals out in the open, and could not be housed. The late Cape Government promised a sum of £12,000 for the extension of the Museum, and another £12,000 for building an Art Gallery. As far as the Art Gallery was concerned, the Government had £6,000 in hand at the present time, and they promised to pay another £6,000, but nothing, so far as he could see, had been done at all. He noticed an amount of £90,000 for a Museum and an Art Gallery at Pretoria. There was also an amount of £13,000 for Bloemfontein.

Our own money.

I am not saying anything about that, but we were promised these amounts, and I hope the Minister will see his way clear to do something.

said it seemed a pity that specimens were unpacked. Would it not be well to send them to the other parts of the Union?

said there were a number of little museums all over the country, but there was no coordination of work. Something should be done to co-ordinate the work of the scientific institutions, and he was not sure whether we got the return that we ought to get. The Minister was a man of culture, but he did not see the replies sent out by his underlings. One of the institutions with, which he was connected had a most unpleasant correspondence with the Minister’s department, and he (Mr. Merriman) had great difficulty in persuading his brother trustees that the Minister had nothing to do with it. The South African Museum was satisfied and pleased in one way with the grant it received. Port Elizabeth had an excellent museum, but the same number of foreign visitors did not go to it that visited the South African Museum. A large number of people landed in Cape Town, and the first place they went to was the Museum. They did not go to Johannesburg, unfortunately; if that, attractive place were nearer they would. (Laughter.) The trustees were anxious to have as good a national display as possible, but they had been gravelled for funds. It was exceedingly discouraging to see the small amount of private liberality there was. (Hear, hear.) When the Museum was started it had subscribers, but the Cape Government killed them with its liberality, and since then the only money contribution was made by one of the despised race we were doing our best to keep out of the country—a Hindoo gentleman, who gave them some money with which to buy coins. He did not think that reflected much credit on the Mother City of the Cape.

thought the hon. member for Cape Town would like to see all little museums abolished, and sent to Cape Town. (Cries of “No.”) After all, museums were not for the benefit of visitors to the country, but for the benefit of the residents.

suggested that there should be some system of making grants. At present the institutions which worried the Government most obtained the largest votes. Deputations should not have to go begging to the Government. Places not near the fire did not get such large grants as those nearer the Minister.

said that we had a number of museums scattered over South Africa; their work overlapped, and we did not get a sufficient return for the money that was being spent. (Hear, hear.) Museums were not merely show places, as his hon. friend seemed to think—

No, no.

But places of education and important centres of research. Highly-qualified men should be stationed at them, for the purpose of studying the natural history of the country. Every little place, however, wanted to look after its own little museum. It might be possible to specialise so that the different museums could go in for certain lines of research. He thought it was very necessary that the South African Museum should be extended, and to a large extent Government was morally bound to do that. Government, was morally bound to spend £12,000 on a new Art Gallery for Cape Town, He had been asked to give money for the purpose of erecting shanties in the grounds of the South African Museum, but it would deface the Gardens to put up inferior structures in them. They should wait until they could spend £25,000 in extending the present building. After all, these Gardens were one of the beauties of South Africa, and should not be defaced with sheds. (Hear, hear.) The Kimberley and Durban Museums were instances of what could be done with private enterprise, and he was afraid of the blighting influence of Government aid. (Laughter.) A wrong system had grown up in South Africa in the past by which museums got special facilities through the post. The postal administrations all over South Africa were very much opposed to this practice, and it seemed really an easier matter to help the institutions by way of grant than by way of moving the postal authorities to grant special facilities. General Smuts mentioned that by a misprint the vote to the Port Elizabeth Museum appeared as £950, and the vote to the King William’s Town Museum, £400. The figures should be £850 and £500 respectively, and he moved to amend the items accordingly.

protested against the alteration The people of Port Elizabeth understood the grant was to be £950. The museum there did a great deal of work in an educational way, and was extensively visited. It would be a great discouragement to the people if this grant were reduced. He urged that there ought to be some principle in regard to these grants.

thought the grant to the Durban Museum was wholly inadequate. It was not fair and just, and he hoped the Minister would increase it by at least £300 or £400.

said he was sorry he could not oblige the hon. member. They all knew these institutions at Durban were much more highly favoured by a rich and enterprising Corporation than were institutions in other cities. He hoped that soon the whole matter would be adjusted on a proper system, but they would have to move slowly.

Yes. Move slowly; but do more,

said that he wanted to ask the Minister for something that would not cost him anything at all, and that was not parochial. He referred to the preservation of the Bushman paintings. Penalties should be imposed against the destruction of those paintings. A considerable collection had been taken off by their enterprising friends the Germans. The destruction was simply awful.

again appealed to the Minister to increase the vote for the Durban Museum. He stoutly declared that Durban had not been dealt with fairly.

said he saw that £150 was down for the Durban Museum, and £1,870 for the Maritzburg Museum. He would suggest to the Minister that he should reduce the latter grant to £1,720, and give the £150 to Durban, which would then receive £300.

I object, to that. I do not think it is fair to encroach upon what is given to Maritzburg.

said that, he had introduced a Bill dealing with Bushman relics in another place, a most important Bill. He hoped the House would have time to deal with this matter, as it, was very urgent. He was sorry he could not comply with the request of his hon. friend (Mir. Henwood) Nothing could be done in that matter on the present Estimates.

The amendment was agreed to.

urged the need of providing for a more detailed description of the non-European races in the Census returns than they had had in the past. It was important, he said, that they should have a proper comprehension of the numbers belonging to the different races of the country.

said that the regulations had been laid on the table, from which the hon. member would see that a very extended list was given.

said that he wanted to call the Minister’s attention to the grants to libraries, art galleries, and kindred institutions. The grant to the South African Public Library, Cape Town, was £1,050, to the Johannesburg Library £1,300, and to the Pretoria Library £1,300. The South African Library had 105,000 volumes, Pretoria 31,000, and Johannesburg 26,000. The South African Library was at present very much cramped for room for the collection. He appealed to the Government to put the South African Library on an equal footing with the libraries in Pretoria and Johannesburg. The South African Library served a very useful purpose, as could be seen from the fact that its circulation last year of books other than novels totalled 30,000.

appealed for assistance on behalf of the Seymour Memorial Library, which, he said, was the only scientific library in South Africa.

It is a private library.

It is the most public of all the public libraries in South Africa. Proceeding, he contended that a scientific library was of greater importance than an ordinary library. The Seymour Library was without funds, and during the last 12 months could not purchase any new books. He hoped the Minister would give an assurance that next year’s Estimates would make provision for a contribution to that library.

said that the Durban Library, compared with the other big libraries, had not been fairly treated. Whereas Durban only got £275, the Port Elizabeth Library got £400; South African Library, £1,050; and the Pretoria and Johannesburg Libraries, £1,300 each.

referred to the fact that in New Zealand there were some very valuable books an the past history of South Africa, and that in this country there were valuable Maori books. His suggestion was that there should be an exchange. The present Minister of Education had introduced a Bill in the old Cape Parliament for that purpose, but nothing had been done. He thought it was only common courtesy that something should be done in the matter.

said that he wanted to support the appeal made by Mr. Jagger on behalf of the South African Public Library at Cape Town. There were a number of valuable books which had been discovered by the present librarian which were of the utmost value and interest, but which in the past had not been kept in a proper condition or binding. He appealed to the Minister to devote every attention to that matter, because it was their oldest library, and contained by far the most valuable collection of books in South Africa. (Hear, hear.) Dealing with botanical gardens, the hon. member said that the question of State botanical gardens was one which should be taken up by the Government, and he hoped it was not going to endorse the principle of putting that expenditure under the Provincial Estimates. If anything was a State matter, that was. He was informed that there were a number of plants in South Africa which were capable of producing rubber; be thought a proper investigation should be made in State botanical gardens.

We have heard a good deal about town libraries, but I think the country libraries need some attention too. Will the Minister in the future take into consideration the increasing of these grants to country libraries? One thing, he added, had struck him in connection with the libraries, and that was that there were too many novels, and he thought it a wrong principle that too much public money should be spent on the purchase of novels.

drew attention to the discrepancies which existed in the Union in regard to the expenses of returning officers at Parliamentary elections. In Natal these expenses, he said, were borne by the Government; but in the Cape candidates had to bear them, and it was rather a heavy expense.

asked for enlightenment as to whether a certain percentage of the Government grant had not to be spent on the purchase of books. In his constituency a certain portion of that money had to be spent on the purchase of books.

Surely my hon. friend does not want the Government to supply the books and bear the administration expenses of these libraries? The hon. member went on to say that the Cape Town Library was in no sense a national library. (Dissent.)

Oh!

Well, a few people took out scientific or legal works, like his hon. friend (Mr. Long), but most people took out novels.

pointed out that thousands of scientific works and other books which were not novels were taken out every year.

added that the Government grant Should he on some principle; or let it be scrapped altogether.

It is most depressing to hear a man of the intellectual attainments of my hon. friend talk such (Laughter.) This Union should be proud of the South African public Library. We have literary treasures there which no colony in the world has. We have a better library here than any other colony. In addition, we have a collection of priceless value, in the shape of every newspaper published in the Cape from the beginning. The Grey Collection and first folios might be mere trash, added Mr. Merriman, ironically, but they had these priceless treasures of newspapers, which would be of very great value to future historians. The librarians of the South African Library had told him that more members of Parliament had availed themselves of the resources of the library than ever had been the case before, and they appreciated the help that had been given to them. He hoped the Minister would see his way to give a special grant for a reference library. Let them recognise that this was the oldest library by far, and even Johannesburg could not buy the treasures that it contained. (Hear, hear.) It was unworthy of the member for Port Elizabeth to take up the attitude he had done with regard to this real South African Library.

criticised the smallness of Free State Library grants.

advocated an increase in the grant for the Swellendam Library.

referred to the suggested interchange of documents between the South African and New Zealand libraries. He did not think the New Zealand documents were very valuable.

Hear, hear.

said he hoped something might be done in the matter.

said it was true that lots of things offered were not of much value, still the South African Library had a lot of things like Polynesian MSS., which were not of much value to them in South Africa, and these might be exchanged.

said they would like to be friendly with their other colonies, but they would have to go carefully in these matters of exchanges. He agreed with his right hon. friend that the Cape Town Library was one they ought to be proud of, and he did not think the hon. member for Port Elizabeth was at all justified in his strictures. With regard to the Seymour Library, something might be done for that in the future, but it was impossible just now.

asked for some information regarding the sum of £4,000 for assisted immigration.

said the object of the vote-was, very largely to provide the means of bringing out to South Africa the families, of deserving citizens. They desired to establish a large white population in the country, and they realised that they could not keep a man here unless his family were here. The object was simply to restore the Transvaal and Natal systems.

hoped the Minister would see that this was not made the skipping-off place for Australia by these people.

said that every precaution would be taken. This money would be advanced only after investigation by a magistrate, who would certify that the man was a deserving citizen, and too poor to bring out his family.

Vote No, 7 was agreed to.

said what was required was a permanent Public Health Department, directly responsible to the Minister. But they were not prepared to accept a medical officer who would be a sort of flunkey to an official in the Department of the Interior. Referring the growth of tuberculosis in South Africa, the hon. member pointed out that on the other hand the death-rate in European countries from this scourge had decreased. People talked about the frightful mortality on the Rand mines—50 per 1,000 per annum, but at Victoria West the mortality from chest diseases among the coloured people was 40 per 1,000. It was the duty of the Government to come forward boldly and tackle the subject. We had within our borders a much more dangerous enemy than any that was likely to attack our shares, and we were doing nothing to stop it. There were other things which required attention, like sleeping sickness, and in regard to which they were doing nothing. They were spending huge sums of money in investigating animal and plant diseases, but they did nothing in regard to human scourges. Nor could they hope for reform until they had a medical man appointed at the head of the Department of Public Health. He had hoped that something would be done in the matter of erecting a National Institute for medical research on the lines of the one at Khartoum, which had been erected to the memory of Gordon by Mr. Welcome. He regretted that no public benefactor had come forward, and done a similar service for British South Africa. He hoped that something would be done in the way of starting a vigorous campaign against human disease.

said he hoped the Government would support the Anti-Malaria Association on the Rand. He urged that the association would be far more effective if it could be granted Government assistance. The hon. member testified to the good work which had already been done in combating malaria in different parts of the Transvaal, the Government of which had given support. That, however, had suddenly ceased, though it was wall-deserved. Owing to the association’s work, malaria had practically disappeared from the Messina Mine and the Tzaneen.

said that the last time he spoke on this matter he referred to the great disparity between the amount which the Government were spending upon coping with diseases of animals as compared with the amount spent, in coping with human diseases. Since then he had not been idle, because it was absolutely necessary that something should be done. He hoped the Minister would make an announcement to the House which would be of great interest not only to the House, but the country at large, because in was a subject which marked a distinct advance in their efforts to stamp out disease. He considered that much could be done in this country by means of bacteriological research.

did not agree that a medical man was likely to be a great success as an administrative officer.

said that he was glad that that matter had been raised by Dr. Macaulay. The Minister was probably not aware of the conditions which existed among certain coloured people in Boshof, many of them suffering from tuberculosis. Eighty per cent, of the coloured people who died there died as a result of that disease. So, at any rate, he had been informed by someone who knew about the matter, although the figures were not official. The whites should be protected. To Beaufort West and Victoria West many people had been sent who were suffering from the disease, and many had afterwards gone to Boshof. If there was any district to which the Minister should devote his attention in that regard, it should be Boshof, where many Europeans were afflicted with the disease too. He hoped that hon. members who were medical men would inform them what was the best, thing that could be done. The existing conditions were such that they needed immediate attention. In conclusion, the hon. member advocated increased allowances to district surgeons.

said he could not understand the attitude of the Minister. It seemed that people living on the backveld were not treated very well, and he hoped the Minister would try and meet the wishes of the people. At Olifantshoek, a district surgeon should be appointed, though the Magistrate had considered this unnecessary.

said besides seeing that a robust set of people came into the country, they should see that their own people were made robust. The matter must be looked at entirely from the point of view of the Union. And there must be compulsion, for without that there would be no hope successfully of dealing with the evil. He had been informed by a doctor that of one small group of coloured people everyone of them was afflicted with tuberculosis. The Minister must have someone to advise him in this matter, and no time should be lost.

asked whether something more could now be done to combat malarial fever? He thought the association which was fighting that disease was deserving of the best assistance of the Government, because it was doing its best to render valuable districts inhabitable,

said he was rather sorry so much stress had been laid on the question of malaria in the Transvaal. He was afraid that an entirely wrong impression had been conveyed to the House of the extreme danger in the northern parts of the Transvaal. People would imagine that these were the most deadly parts of South Africa., but it was a very small matter. At the same time, something should be done to cope with the disease. It was one of those diseases they were able to cope with. He thought something should be done to spread simple information among the people, and he thought the association referred to by Mr. Mentz had done very useful work in that respect. The Government might judiciously help, not by giving a grant to this association, but by getting a well-qualified man to study the matter in the Transvaal, and to write a little handbook of simple rules for circulation among the people. The question of tuberculosis was, of course, very much more serious. Tuberculosis was spreading in this country, and increasing in virulence. The trouble was to see what the Government could usefully do in the matter. He had listened to speeches by ear nest and able doctors in the Transvaal Parliament and in that Parliament about tuberculosis, but he had never heard any practical measure suggested. They always spoke in generalities, and never gave a hint to the Government as to what to do The other day he was talking to an eminent medical man in Cape Town about this, and the only suggestion that gentleman could give, when asked for a suggestion, was that the powers of municipalities should be widened so as to enable the most severe cases to be isolated. He would be glad of any guidance from the medical men in that House in the matter. This question of medical research had for a long time occupied the attention of Governments and Parliaments in South Africa. There seemed to be a probability that they might have a better state of affairs in South Africa than had hitherto existed. (Hear, hear.) He thought, very largely through the efforts of the hon. member for Yeoville, an offer had been made by the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association of a most important character, which the Government had already accepted; only the details were now being discussed, and which he thought may in the end produce far-reaching consequences of a beneficial character for South Africa. (Hear, hear.) The offer of the Native Labour Association was that there should be erected a laboratory for medical research in Johannesburg;, principally, of course, to investigate diseases arising in connection with gold mining; but beyond that to conduct research into other diseases in South Africa. The association were prepared to supply money up to £40,000 for building that laboratory, and to join with the Government in the maintenance of such institution. (Hear, hear.) The Government had already accepted the offer in principle, and details were now being discussed, and he hoped the result would be that, after this had been accepted, in a short time they would have in South Africa, one of the most highly-equipped institutions for medical research that could be found in the world — (hear, hear)—and that a number of diseases which were either peculiar to South Africa, or if not peculiar to South Africa, assumed special forms, could be investigated in that laboratory, and the diseases could be coped with in South Africa along scientific lines. The Witwatersrand Native Labour Association deserved the best thanks, not only of the Government and of this Parliament, but of the country for this most munificent offer which they had made. He hoped his hon. friend (Dr. MACAULAY) would soon see that the disgraceful shanty in Johannesburg would disappear, and a building of a very different kind take its place. They hoped to have on the hill at Johannesburg an institution which would be worthy of South Africa. (Cheers.)

suggested that a Commission should be appointed to go thoroughly into the question of tuberculosis, and perhaps it might be able to suggest a remedy to the Minister.

said that he was glad that, the Minister recognised that the question of tuberculosis was one of the most important they could deal with, and he hoped that, a Select Committee would, as Mr. Runciman had suggested, be appointed. If it were found that nothing could be done to combat that terrible disease, he was very much afraid that it would be “all up” with the nation of South Africa.

said that there was no use talking about a few isolated cases of malaria. It was a very serious matter indeed. Why was it that some of the most fertile districts of South Africa remained undeveloped and uncultivated? It was because of malaria. The Government spent thousands of pounds in climatic allowances to public servants simply because of malaria, If the advice of the hon. member for Zoutpansberg were taken, and a sum of money corresponding to that spent on the investigation of cattle diseases were spent on the investigation of malaria, it would do more for the backward parts of the Transvaal than anything else. It would allow the white man to live there, and bring up a healthy family; and that was what was wanted to bring about development in these parts of the country.

said that a man was to be sent to Smyrna to make an investigation in regard to figs, but where it was a question of human life, a pamphlet was to be sent round I The conditions in this country were not nearly so had as they were in other countries which had overcome their difficulties. As he had said on previous occasions, South Africa’s future must lie up-country, and more particularly in the low veld. It was the richest country they had, and was capable of producing all sorts of things. There was also any amount of scope for further mineral development. He considered that something should be done, and for that reason he heartily supported the suggestion brought forward by the hon. member for Zoutpansberg.

pleaded for the appointment of a district surgeon at Kopjes, where a labour colony rendered such a step necessary.

in reply to General Smuts, said he quite realised that better salaries to district surgeons would not do away with tuberculosis, but they would encourage the officers in question to devote more attention to the disease. He advocated the segregation of patients.

said that if there was one reason why they should support Dr. MACAULAY’s motion, it was what the Minister had said about doctors not having suggested any remedy. If ever a Department of public Health were needed in South Africa it was needed now. The hon. member, in graphic Language, described the spread of tuberculosis in South Africa, and its infectious mature. He said that the disease was worse in South Africa than in England; and they must combat it, first, by seeing that no patients were allowed to enter the country, and, secondly, by seeing that strict measures were taken to disinfect public conveyances such as railway carriages and the like. He did not think that it was a satisfactory thing for the Minister to rest on his laurels because a private laboratory in Johannesburg was going to investigate mine diseases, and, incidentally, also other human diseases. It was said the matter of fighting the disease must be left to local bodies such as Municipalities and Divisional Councils. What had been done in the Cape by these local bodies to Combat that dread disease? Practically nothing. If there was ever a matter which the Government should take up it was that question of fighting tuberculosis, just as the Government combated East Coast fever, and had made a State matter of it. He hoped that the Minister of the Interior would take that matter seriously into consideration, and see that it was thoroughly investigated. District surgeons should be induced to take steps by haying their salaries increased. Local authorities should also assist. A Commission of Inquiry, should be appointed.

The vote was agreed to.

asked what was being done with regard to the petition from Robben Island lepers, praying for removal to the mainland, which was referred to the Government for consideration four months ago?

asked what action the Government proposed to take with regard to the recommendation of the Public Accounts Committee concerning asylums?

referred to the fact that in the Cape asylums patients were required to pay fees if their means allowed, whereas in the other Provinces no payment was required. He asked what the view of the Government was in regard to this matter.

said he wished to draw attention to the fact that the staffs of the asylums in the Cape Province were not treated as well as those in other parts of the Union.

said that his department had gone into the matter, and in most cases the grievances had been rectified to the satisfaction of the staffs. As regarded payment by patients, he admitted that efforts were made in the Cape to exact payment, whereas in the Transvaal payment was only made for special accommodation and special treatment. He did not know whether, under all the circumstances, it would not be the test to adopt the Transvaal system of exacting payment, for special treatment. In regard to Robben Island, he stated that he had not been able to secure the services of the gentleman he had mentioned, and the inquiry could not take place. He had been told that the best course would be to remove the white patients to a station on the mainland, and keep the coloured patients on the Island, but that would mean great expense, and he was not in a position to afford such a change, and nothing could be done at present.

The vote was agreed to.

Vote No. 10, printing and stationery, £187,239, was agreed to.

Progress was reported, and leave obtained to sit again to-morrow.