as Chairman, brought up the report together with a minority report of the Select Committee on the Irrigation Bill, and moved that the reports and evidence he printed.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved: That the first reading of the Irrigation Bill be discharged and the Bill withdrawn.

seconded.

Agreed to, and the Bill accordingly withdrawn.

Government Veterinary Bacteriologist, year 1909-10.

Commission to make recommendations for the reorganisation of the Public Service (Department of Mines).

Proposed sale of Old Residency Grounds and Buildings at Mossel Bay.

These papers were referred to the Select Committee on Waste Lands.

In view of the amendments made by the Honourable the Senate in the Powers and Privileges of Parliament Bill, the difficulties which prevented the consideration of clauses twelve and fourteen of the Exchequer and Audit Bill have now been removed, and the Committee on that will may proceed to the consideration of those clauses.

said that he was informed by his expert advisers that it would be better to leave the clause us originally drafted. Cigarettes were cigarettes, of course, and if the word “articles” remained, certain articles, like “cigarillos,” would be taught, and he was advised that it would not catch cigars.

was understood to say that why he moved that amendment was because it was in accordance with the old Cape Cigarette Tax Act, which had worked smoothly.

said that he had seen some people with fillers for pipes—dreadful things. (Laughter.) He would like to see them taxed.

The amendment was negatived, so that the word “articles” remained.

In clause 2, in regard to the amendment moved by Mr. Alexander, in line 14—to insert the words “if any,” after “Customs duty,”

said that the hon. member would see that the words were unnecessary—meaningless, in fact.

I moved them after “duty,” in line 14. They are meaningless as they now appear.

The amendment was negatived.

drew attention to certain people who made their living by manufacturing cigarettes and selling them by weight over the counter. These cigarettes were not put up in packets. If these people were compelled to sell by stamped packets, their business would be killed.

You would simply lose half your tax if you exempted cigarettes that were sold over the counter.

drew attention to the fact that Rhodesian cigarettes were not subject to Customs duty. He wished to know how the Minister meant to deal with these.

said he had drawn up a clause, which he intended moving at the third reading, to meet the case. This would be to the effect that a surtax, by means of stamps, would be levied upon all packets of cigarettes, whether Customs duty was payable or not

suggested that a margin of 5 oz. per 1,000 be allowed for weighing imported cigarettes it being well known that cigarettes weighed less on a dry than on a damn day. (Cries of “Oh.”)

The amendment in clause 13, to insert “and cigarettes” to “stored,” was negatived.

moved, in line 14 of clause 2, after “duty” to insert “if any.”

seconded.

The amendment was afterwards withdrawn.

The remaining amendments were agreed to.

The Bill was set down for third reading on Monday.

stated that he was now in a position to move amendments to clauses 5 and 6, which he hoped would meet with the approval of hon. members on both sides of the House. It also met with the approval of the Controller and Auditor-General. Clause 5 originally read that the salary of the Controller and Auditor-General should not be less than £1,500 per annum, and not more than £1,800, except that the annual salary to the person heretofore appointed under section 132 of the South Africa Act should be £2,000. In section 6 he proposed to insert the following new sub-section 3: “If by any law hereafter enacted any sum is prescribed as the maximum sum which should be regarded as the pensionable emolument of any officer in the Public Service, the average salary of the Controller and Auditor-General shall not, where any annuity or super annuation allowance is calculated in this connection, he deemed to be greater than the maximum sum aforesaid.” The Controller and Auditor-General was perfectly satisfied with this sub-section. The amendment of Mr. Grobler (Rustenburg), fixing the Auditor-General’s salary at £1,500, was negatived.

The Select Committee’s amendments were also negatived, and the original clause was adopted.

On clause 6,

moved: In line 31, after “him ”, in line 34, before “elect”, and in line 40, after “average salary” respectively, to insert “subject to the provisions of sub-section (3)” and to add at the end the following new subsection (3), viz.: “If by any law hereafter enacted any sum is prescribed as the maximum sum which shall be regarded as the pensionable emolument of any officer in the public service, the average salary, or actual annual salary, of the Controller and Auditor-General shall not when any annuity or superannuation allowance is calculated under this section be deemed to be greater than, the maximum sum aforesaid.”

moved: That the following be a new subsection (3), viz.; “3. And no such pension shall exceed, as hereto provided for, one thousand pounds per annum.”

supported the previous speaker, and said he considered the question of reducing the pension list a most serious one.

said that the question of pensions generally would have to be determined very soon, because at present there was no law dealing with the pensions of Union servants. He hoped that a Bill would be introduced next session.

You must do so.

withdrew his new clause in view of the fact that a Bill was to be introduced next session.

The amendments moved by the Minister of Finance were agreed to.

The Bill was reported, with amendments, consideration of which was set down for Monday.

said he thought there should be a finance clause. There was no provision for the money which was to be be advanced.

said that year by year provision would be made on the Estimates for moneys to be advanced. There was enough money available for the present year.

Having been verbally amended, the clause was agreed to.

On clause 2, Advances by the department to owners for the purpose of the construction of dipping tanks,

moved: In line 22, after “such holding” to insert “or whenever any person who is the owner of a holding desires to construct thereon such a tank”; in line 25, to omit “public moneys a sum” and to substitute “such moneys as Parliament may appropriate for the purpose, a sum which in the opinion of the department is”; in line 28, to omit the words “proposed site and the” and the words “and the mode of construction”; in line 30, to omit “thre and a half” and to substitute “four ”; in line 31, to omit “half ”; in line 32, after “within” to insert “such period not exceeding”; in line 33, after “due” to insert “as may be prescribed by the Minister, who, in so prescribing, shall have regard to the amount of the advance.”

said it was proposed that this was to be under the Department of Public Works Well, they had had some cruel experiences of the Public Works Department in the matter of the construction of dipping tanks. In the Transkei, where the tanks were constructed by the department at the expense of the natives, for whom we were responsible, the tanks cost between £200 and £300, and then they were inefficient. A farmer would tell them that he could make a good tank, quite suitable for the purpose, for £50. Here they were handing ever the thing to the Public Works Department, which in the matter of school buildings, and so on had saddled them with enormous expense, which the poor unfortunate farmer had to pay.

said he thought the clause did not go far enough, and spoke in favour of a dip depot being erected in every district, so that every farmer could easily get dip. He moved to that effect.

ruled the amendment out of order.

said that that Bill had nothing to do with dips, hut with advances to people who wanted to construct dipping tanks. As to what Mr. Merriman had said, there was much to be said for it, and he, too, was in favour of the tanks being as cheaply constructed as possible, provided they were substantially built. If they were too lavish with their money, they would find tanks being constructed which would last for a thousand years. A tank should not cost more than £100, but unless they were scientifically built, the ticks would escape, and the cattle might get hurt. All he wanted was that the department should approve of the plans, because farmers should not be unduly interfered with.

said he was going to suggest that the advice of the hon. member (Mr. Fawcus) should be taken, because he had had considerable experience in this respect.

said he thought it was quite possible to erect a very good dipping tank for £100. He proposed an amendment limiting the amount of an advance to £100.

said that if they were going to lay down what the cost of a dipping tank should be, they would make it impossible in some cases for dipping tanks to be constructed. Of course, near the coast, £100 would be more than sufficient, but in the far Northern districts, where stone had to be transported miles and miles over heavy sand roads, and the carriage on cement from the coast was very heavy, it might be quite inadequate. He thought they should place a certain amount of reliance on the department. If they were going to lay down this limit, they would frustrate the object in view. Sir Thomas referred in particular, to the great cost of transport in Bechuanaland, and went on to say that the State must have some security that the money was properly expended. He thought it was a serious thing that the State should lend money, and that the man to whom it was lent should construct a tank just in the way he desired. They must trust the Government and the Agricultural Department to see that no unnecessary amount of money was spent on these works.

withdrew his amendment.

asked whether the cost of inspection would be included in the amount of the advance?

said that if the inspection would cost a, great deal in regard to tanks which were great distances away, such as in Bechuanaland, many people would not go in for these tanks.

said that the inspection would be in connection with the specifications, and advice would be given as to what would be the most suitable stone for a particular district of the country. (Hear, hear.)

The amendments were agreed to.

moved in line 27, sub-clause (2), after “of construction,” to omit all the words to the end of the clause. He said that he was afraid they might kill the Bill by red tape. He thought the Government had enough security under clause 3, which gave them security for the advances. His view was that the construction of the tank might be to a large extent, if not altogether, left to the farmers. He was afraid that this Bill would be smothered in red tape.

said he thought the amendment of the hon. member went too far. He would be prepared to accept an amendment to delete the words “proposed site and the” and “and the mode of construction.”

withdrew his amendment in favour of General Botha’s.

pointed out that the department would know at once that the farmer was going to use certain material.

moved the following amendment: “No such advance shall be made unless the tank be constructed according to the plans and specifications approved by the department.”

said that they must take care not to have such stringent regulations that the farmers would not go in for these dipping tanks, and he agreed with what Mr. Blaine had said. There should not be too many restrictions. The lino should not be too narrowly drawn. Owners of small flocks would not be able to build on the same scale as their wealthier neighbours.

said that his idea was to keep the Government officials out as much as possible, and he left it to the farmer to draw up his own plans and specifications: but these would have to be approved of before an advance was made.

asked whether section 6 of clause 6 would apply to sheep?

Yes.

Then there will have to be an alteration in the regulations.

said he understood from the hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Sir T. Smartt) that the Government required regulations for protecting the Government. If the department, upon being requested for a loan, should submit certain specifications to the person making the application, the Government might then be able to have some guide to the amount that the farmer would probably require to spend. There would have to be provision made in the case of a farmer who did not carry out these instructions. He considered that such a farmer should be compelled to construct these tanks out of his own money.

moved: At the end of sub-section (4) to add the following new sub-sections (5) and (6): “(5) The date upon which the advance or any portion thereof is first made or upon which material was first supplied shall he deemed to be the date as from which interest is first payable, and the date from which the said two years snail be calculated. (6) For the purposes of this section any number of holdings may be regarded as one holding provided they are contiguous to each other, and the aggregate extent thereof does not exceed three thousand morgen, or such greater extent as the Minister, having regard to the practice of the owners, may determine; but in every such case the owners shall be liable for repayment in equal proportions, and each owner shall be liable to pay interest at the rate aforesaid upon the amount representing his proportion of the advance.”

The motion was agreed to.

On clause 3,

moved: “In line 41, after “shall” to insert “forthwith upon the completion of the advance ”; in line 43, after “Act” to insert “and, where the advance is made in respect of more than one holding, the amount which each owner is liable to pay ”; in line 44, after “person” to insert “or persons”, in line 45, after “holding” to insert “or holdings ”; and in line 47, after “holding” to insert “or holdings.” Page 4, line 2, after “holding” to insert “which shall, if the department has transmitted to the holder of any existing mortgage or charge written notice of an intention to make the advance, have priority over any such mortgage or charge, and such charge in favour of the department shall, in addition, have priority over all mortgages and charges thereafter created”; in the same line, to omit “and all interest due thereon,” and substitute “repayable in respect of the holding, and the interest aforesaid,”; in line 7, to omit “Upon the transfer of” and to substitute “If”; in the same line, after, “made” to insert “be lawfully transferred”; in line 8, to omit “charge noted” and to substitute “liability for any portion of the advance not repaid, and the interest aforesaid; in the same line to omit “of the transferor and of the transferee and.”

complained that there were pages and pages of amendments, and it appeared to him that the Bill had been drafted without consultation with the departments. It was extremely difficult to follow the amendments.

admitted that many difficulties had arisen since the original Bill had been drafted, although it had been thought that it would be a very simple matter. He regretted that all these amendments came up. He reminded hon. members that the Bill had only recently come into being at the request of the Select Committee on Stock Diseases, which had requested to deal with the subject in a separate measure. He recognised that the wording of the Bill had suffered owing to hasty drafting.

suggested that the new clauses should be printed with the amendments, so that the latter could more easily be followed. (Cheers.)

said they were going to give the bondholder notice. Did that mean that the bondholder could object? (Cries of “No.”)

It will be a first charge.

That is a dangerous precedent. I would sooner see the Government imperil its money than to have this principle introduced. After all, the sum involved would only be a small one.

said that he did not agree with Mr. Merriman’s point of view. If one reduced the value of the property it would be a different matter, but here they increased the value by £100.

said that would not follow at all. It was merely a matter of opinion whether the security was improved. They had no right to override a first bond. It was a bad, evil precedent, and he was afraid it would do a great deal of harm.

said that he thought it was always the case that the rights of bondholders would be amply safeguarded. He hoped that the clause would stand over.

spoke of the excellent way in which the Transvaal Land Bank Act had worked, and the little trouble they had had, because mortgagees hardly ever took advantage of the opportunity to receive their money back. He agreed with the Prime Minister.

asked how it was proposed to deal with the case in which several people combined to erect a dipping tank on one farm?

was afraid that all the expense that would have to be involved in the way of fees and legal charges if the cost of the dipping tanks were made a first charge on a farm would kill the measure. He suggested that the clause should stand over.

hoped that the matter would not be allowed to stand over, far the Bill admitted of no delay. There were many cases in which the mortgages were greater than the value of the property.

said the points raised by Mr. Merriman and Mr. Watermeyer were very important. People might call up their mortgages, and what would then be the position of a farmer who desired to build a dipping tank? Then the legal expenses would deter many farmers from erecting dipping tanks. He thought it was possible to devise a way by which the charge would still remain a charge against a farm irrespective of sale. He would rather see the Government take a small risk than put any difficulties or discouragements in the way of the people.

said he would like to see the clause go through just as it was, because whatever money was spent on a farm enhanced the farm to that extent.

said he wished again to urge the Prime Minister to allow the Government’s claim to come in as an ordinary debt registered against the property. Under this Bill they were going to put the Government in front of the ordinary bondholder, and such legislation was going to create a feeling of alarm in the minds of bondholders which he thought would be most unsatisfactory.

said the position was that large sums of public money were going to be spent in the improvement of farms, and if the suggestion of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Merriman) were followed, the Government would not have security for the money expended. He thought that if the Government spent large sums of money in improving farms, it should have priority over the bondholder. The hon. member for Pretoria East had suggested that the bonds created should be continuous and not extinguished with the sale of farms. Well, he might say that such provision was going to be moved by the Prime Minister, with the consent, of course, of the department.

said he was anxious to see the difficulty raised by Mr. Merriman removed, because he was anxious to see the amount go up to £1,000,000. He was anxious to see 20,000 tanks erected; and he wanted to see compulsory dipping enforced.

said the point raised was one of great public importance. A new principle was being introduced. The existing bondholder was not to be protected at all. He moved that the written notice referred to in the amendment be four months, in order to protect all holders of existing bonds. If they did not do that, then they were going to put the existing bondholders at the mercy of the Government.

disagreed with this amendment, and said it was only fair that the Government should be absolutely protected. Otherwise, there might be heavy losses. In any case, the property would be improved to the extent of the cost of the dipping tank in case a bondholder took it over.

said he had never heard such a rambling argument as that which had been advanced. The argument was that if the Government made this rank, as an ordinary debtor would, after the claims of a bondholder, there were going to be tremendous losses. Well, were they going to make the widow and orphan who advanced money on property liable? They were proposing by legislation to take away these people’s rights—to interfere with existing contracts, for a bond was a contract. It was a most evil doctrine.

said that in Johannesburg the advances to enable people to make drains and so on were a first charge on properties. The principle was, therefore, an old one.

said they would have to withdraw the Bill if the clause were negatived. He hoped that the discussion would not be continued at such length, because, in raising all these new points, they lost sight, he was afraid, of the main principles of the Bill. By advancing this money, the value of the farm was enhanced, and this would be to the benefit of the bondholders. The Government could not be a philanthropic institution, and could not give these advances without the best of security. The” must go on business principles; and if they did not, the Bill would not effect the good it should. The proposed principle might be new as far as the Cape was concerned, but it had worked well in the Transvaal.

And Natal.

It must not be lost sight of that the value of farms where ticks were not eradicated would be reduced, and that the construction of dipping tanks would enhance the value. As to what Mr. Watermeyer had feared, the farmer would not have to incur expense, for he could come to the Government direct without having to go to an attorney. The department did the work free of charge.

said that the Fencing Act in Natal made the loan a first charge in favour of the Government on the property fenced, such charge to have priority over mortgage bonds. This was no new principle therefore. It had worked extremely well in Natal.

hoped Mr. Alexander would not press his amendment. A (bond was often for a long fixed period, and was not terminable at three months’ notice. This law was in force In the Free State and the Transvaal. These tanks, like fences, would improve the value of the property, and they would prevent people getting into serious trouble. It would be good business for the bondholder himself if these tanks were erected. The value of the asset would be enhanced.

said that he also was a little bit nervous about this class of legislation. He thought the Prime Minister and the Minister of the Interior were assuming a little bit too much when they said that property would be enhanced in value where these dipping tanks were erected. Often did it happen that farms were sold and improvements were not considered at all. With reference to these tanks, he was very doubtful indeed whether they were going to increase the value of farms by the amount which they advanced. They were now adopting panic legislation. Why should they by panic legislation go and upset all the arrangements of the country that they had been accustomed to? This was going to shake confidence right throughout the country. In regard to fencing, the Government advanced money and took the risk. If the property were enhanced in value, the Government were secured. He thought the result of this proposal would be that a higher rate of interest would have to be paid on existing mortgages, or the bonded indebtedness of the farmer would have to be reduced.

said that he agreed with the right hon. gentleman that, as a matter of principle, it was had to interfere with bonds. It seemed to him that they could deal easily with this matter by arranging, with the consent of the bondholder, that the mortgage for the dipping tank in favour of the Government should be a continuous mortgage. In that case the bandholder would not be prejudiced, and the Government would be secured. Then, if it should happen that the farm was sold, the Government would be secured by a servitude over the dipping tank.

was understood to contend that that would really be the effect of the clause as it stood.

was understood to say that the effect of that; provision of the Bill, instead of encouraging farmers to go in for dipping tanks, would be the opposite. Tanks were not a permanent improvement, but only a temporary one—as long as the disease existed. He supported the Bill, hut thought that the Government should not have priority over the other bondholders.

expressed surprise at the attitude of the right hon. gentleman, in view of the way in which he had! always impressed upon them what a serious duty that House had in regard to public money. It seemed to him that the position would amount to this—that the Government would lend money to a farmer to construct dipping tanks, the bondholder would reap the benefit, and the Government would come in at the tail-end, as it were, and get what they could. Mr. Blaine also asked how the Government would be secured in the case of a collective number of holdings where the tank was constructed on one holding, and other owners had a benefit? He would like to know how the Government were to be secured in regard to the shares of the other men who had a right to use the dipping tank.

said the principle objected to was really not a sound one, especially where money had been lent for long periods. Three months’ notice was not always a feasible proposition. He thought that the bondholder, or bondholders, must give their consent before these advances were made.

said he would like to point out that surely by improving the stock the security of the mortgage becomes considerably improved. Here they were trying to discuss what was called a new principle. It was not a new principle at all; they would find it in the Transvaal Act, and be believed in the other colonies as well.

said he thought the idea was to get tanks constructed as soon as possible, but when once they began to deal with bonds and bondholders, a great deal of time would be wasted. He thought it much better that same neighbour or friend should stand; security.

said it seemed to him that the Bill as it was proposed to be amended, was causing a certain amount of anxiety among those who did not like any interference with present contracts. He would move the following sub section ’(4), which he believed would meet the case: “No transfer of land shall be registered till any arrears of the instalments payable under section 2 then outstanding shall have been paid.”

said he was afraid that if the amendment were adopted, Government might refuse to entertain legitimate applications for advances. The clause as printed assisted everybody and would not interfere with anyone. What he did not like about the amendment was that if an investigation had to be made into all the transfers, a good deal of time would be spent; while in the case of arrears a man would be in a better position to pay the interest if the Government came to his assistance, and be could construct a dipping tank. As to what Mr. Oosthuisen had said, no bond would have to be passed. Not a penny would be paid by the farmer and no time would be lost. The Transvaal system would be followed. It was not at all like passing an ordinary bond.

said that, according to Cape law, every bond or transfer had to be registered, and if a bond were not passed in regard to the advances made by the Government, some difficulty might ensue as to the exact indebtedness of the debtor, and might in same eases even lead to creditors being misled.

withdrew his amendment in favour of Mr. Duncan’s. He thought it was a very fair compromise.

was understood to say that he thought this proposal was far more calculated to alarm the bondholders.

At this stage it was agreed to report progress and ask leave to sit again in the afternoon.

Business was suspended at 1 o’clock.

moved: That the following be a new subsection, to follow sub-section (4), viz.: “(5) No transfer of a holding in respect of which any such note has been made shall be passed before any Registrar of Deeds until a receipt or certificate signed by the Secretary of the Agricultural Department shall be produced to him for the interest or instalments payable in respect of such holding.”

Agreed to.

On clause 4,

moved: In line 13, to omit “seven” and to substitute “six ”; in line 14, to omit “and interest”; in line 14, to omit “the sums so” up to and including “such rent” in line 16 and to substitute “and the owner shall have the same rights in respect of recovering any such payment as he has in law to recover rent due to him from the lessee.”

Agreed to.

Clause 5 was negatived.

moved that the following be a new clause 5: “The department may, by its officers, enter upon any holding to inspect the carrying out of the construction of any dipping tank, and if it be of opinion that undue delay has occurred in carrying out such construction it may cause written notice to be served upon the owner to complete the construction, and in default of compliance with the terms of the notice, the department may, by its officers or other persons delegated for the purpose, proceed to complete the construction, and notice shall be sent to the Registrar of Deeds of the amount which the department may have expended under this section, and that amount shall be added to and deemed to be part of the advance.” The provisions of sections 3 and 4 shall in all respects apply to (the additional liability so incurred by the owner.

in reply to Mr. Blaine, said that the regulations would prove all the safeguards necessary.

moved, in line 3, after the word “delay,” to insert “or departure from the plans and specifications,” and in line 5, after the word “construction” to insert “in accordance with the plans and specifications.”

The amendments were agreed to.

moved that the following be a new clause 6:“ The department may, by its officers, enter upon any holding to inspect any dipping tank, and if it be of opinion that the same is in need of any repairs, it may give written notice to the owner to execute any such repairs within a period to be specified in the notice, and in default of compliance with the terms of the notice, the department may proceed to execute such repairs and recover the costs thereof by action in a competent court.”

The clause was agreed to.

moved: That the following be a new clause 7: “If at any time any instalment or interest due under this Act be unpaid three months after the same is due, the department may require the person liable, to repay forthwith the whole advance or such portions thereof as he is liable to repay, and any interest due. The provisions of this section may be applied in respect of any person who, in the opinion of the Minister, has appropriated money or material advanced by the department otherwise than for a purpose for which the advance was made.”

Agreed to.

moved: That the following be a new clause 8: “The following provisions shall, in lieu of the provisions hereinbefore contained, apply in respect of the construction and repair of dipping tanks in a native reserve, mission station, or location not under the control of a Native Council: (1) An advance may be paid over by the department to the Department of Native Affairs for the construction of dipping tanks in a native reserve, mission station, or location. (2) In respect of any such advance the adult male inhabitants of any such native reserve, mission station, or location shall be jointly liable for repayment of the amount and for payment of interest at the rate of four per centum per annum. (3) For purpose of obtaining repayment of the advance and payment of interest and the cost of any repairs which may from time to time become necessary to any such dipping tank, the Governor-General may by Proclamation in the ‘ Gazette ’ order that a rate not exceeding in any one year the sum of five shillings be levied upon and collected from each adult male inhabitant, fix the date when such rate shall be levied and collected, make regulations defining the incidence of such rate, and provide that the amount of such rate shall be recoverable in the same manner as any native poll tax or hut tax is by law recoverable in the Province concerned from natives liable to pay such tax.”

thought that instead of “male adults” they should state “owners or occupiers.” He said that garden lots were often held in freehold or on quitrent, and could be held by women.

said he was afraid the hon. member went too far. The clause dealt with mission stations, or other communal holdings, where they only dealt with the males.

said there was this point, that there might be women owners.

said that if they put a charge on the women they would find that the women did not own any cattle. It was owned by their husbands.

said that according to section 3 the Government had the right to collect a tax of 5s. per head in native locations. In big locations, where they had as many as 5,000 inhabitants, it would mean that the Government would get more money than was required.

Not exceeding 5s. per head:

said it was all very well. They charged 2s. 6d. in Pondoland, and the natives paid up, not willingly but still without any disturbance. They then went to work, and put up tanks at incredible cost. It was simply disgraceful. He hoped that some care would be taken that they did not collect money from those unfortunate fellows, and then put up £300 tanks. He took it £600 tanks would only be put up at agricultural schools to teach the farmers how to go to work; but £300 tanks were put up in Pondoland. He could not tell them how sore they felt about it. He merely made these remarks in the hope that such a scandal would not be permitted again.

said that he was opposed to constructing tanks at too great expense. It would be the endeavour of his department to keep the cost down as low as possible, because if the tanks cost too much to construct the objects, they had in view would be frustrated. The Public Works Department as a rule built too expensively.

suggested that magistrates be employed. A great many were thoroughly competent to look after these matters.

The clause was agreed to.

moved: That the following be a new clause 9: “(1) The department may make advances under this Act to any local authority for the purpose of enabling such authority, subject to the provisions of any law governing the powers of such authority, to erect dipping tanks. (2) Interest shall be payable yearly on the amount of the advances at the rate of four per cent, per annum. (3) The amount advanced and any interest due from time to time thereon shall be secured upon the property and revenues of the local authority, including any town or commonage lands thereof or any other lands vested in the authority by any law; and in the event of default by any local authority in making any payments to the department under this section, the department shall exercise all such powers as are vested in the local authority An relation to the levying of rates and out of any rates so levied by the department shall collect the moneys due to it. (4) The amount advanced shall be repaid by such authority within four years after the completion of the tank constructed by means of the advances, but save as aforesaid the provisions of sub-sections (3) and (4) of section 2 and the provisions of section 3 shall mutatis mutandis apply to advances made under this section. (5) For the purposes of this section a local authority shall mean a Divisional Council, Municipal Council, Town Council, Town Board, Village Management Board or a Native Council legally constituted for the administration of local native affairs, or any body of persons constituted by law for safeguarding the health of the inhabitants of any area provided such body has power to levy rates.”

Agreed to.

moved: That the following be a new clause 10: “The Governor-General may make regulations, not inconsistent with this Act, for the better carrying out of the objects and purposes thereof, in particular for the construction by the department of dipping tanks on Crown lands held under lease where advances cannot otherwise be made under this Act, and for the charges which shall be imposed on the lessees for the use of the dipping tanks so constructed.”

Agreed to.

moved: That the following be a new clause 11: “The provisions of any law in force in any Province of the Union whereby loans or advances may be made out of public moneys for the construction, repair, or maintenance of dipping tanks, shall be and are hereby repealed, but no provision of any such law which provides for the recovery of loans or advances made before the commencement of this Act or interest on such loans or advances or penalties for contravention of or failure to comply with such law shall be repealed by this section.”

Agreed to.

The Bill was reported with amendments, which were set down for consideration on Monday.

Before the next order is proceeded with, may I draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to page 1157 of the Votes and Proceedings, where it was stated on the order for the second reading of the Miners’ Phthisis Bill that “when this debate was adjourned on March 9, the question before the House was a motion by the Minister of Mines: ‘ That the Bill be read a second time. Debate resumed.’ After discussion, the motion for the second reading of the Bill was put and agreed to. Bill read a second time.” He (Mr. Chaplin) ventured to submit that that was not a correct statement of the case, because he did not think the debate was resumed; nor was there discussion.

I think the hon. member is quite correct in drawing attention to this. The portion after “discussion” down to “agreed to” should come out, and I shall see that this is expunged from the record.

moved: In line 21, after “Act” to insert “or the regulations made thereunder”; and in line 45. after “with a stamp” to insert “to the proper value ”, and an amendment in the Dutch version which does not occur in the English version.

Agreed to.

Clause 5 was ordered to stand over.

On clause 6,

moved: In line 44, to omit “Commissioner” and to substitute “Minister.”

Agreed to.

On clause 7,

moved: In line 21, to omit “and no” up ‘to and including “disclosed” in line 22; in line 24, to omit “country,” and to substitute “currency ”; In line 31, to omit “reference to”; in the same line, to omit “provided” and to substitute “if ”; and in line 32, to omit “determinable” and to substitute “determined.”

Agreed to.

On Clause 8,

moved: In line 41, after “average” to insert “monthly.”

Agreed to.

On clause 10,

moved: To omit the whole of sub-section (2).

Agreed to.

On clause 11,

moved: In line 20, to omit “attesting” and to substitute “authorised revenue”; in the same line to omit “sub-”; in line 21, to omit “be deemed” up to and including “instrument” in line 23 and to substitute “so far as respects the duty, be deemed to be valid and available”; and in line 34, to omit “let” and to substitute “set.”

Agreed to.

On clause 12,

moved: In line 39, to omit “commodity” and to substitute “movable or immovable property ”; in line 42, to omit “commodity” and to substitute “property ”: and in line 55, before “marketable,” to insert “a”; to omit “commodity” and to substitute ‘ property” and an amendment in the Dutch version which does not occur in the English version.

Agreed to.

On clause 13,

moved: In line 60, to omit “to” and to substitute “by ”,

stated, in reply to Mr. DUNCAN, that what was meant was that where an instrument required some evidence that it had been assigned, such cession must be in writing, and should be stamped. It might be that an interest merely passed by hand and then no stamp was received at all.

said he saw no reason why this particular class of document should be declared null and void because it had not been stamped. He moved the deletion of all the words after “made.”

said he thought it was desirable that the clause should stand over, and he moved accordingly. Provision was made in a later clause for the stamping of all documents, and it was necessary that this clause should be redrafted.

The clause was ordered to stand over.

On clause 15,

moved: In lines 9, 12. 14. and 16, after “agreement” to insert “of lease ”; in lines 15 and 26 after “lease” to insert “or agreement of lease ”; in line 22 to omit “the rent or consideration payable”; in line 23 to omit “be payable” and to insert. “there be rent or other consideration payable or expressed ”; in line 28 to insert “a” after “allow.”

The amendments were agreed to.

moved: In line 33, after “concerned” to insert “or their respective agents ”; in line 54, to omit “shall be entitled to an allowance of” and to substitute “may be allowed a discount not exceeding ”; and in the same line to omit “discount ”; and, further, an amendment in the Dutch version, which does not occur in the English version.

moved: In line 30, after “security” to insert “not being a marketable security to bearer.”

This clause is intended to exact a duty, whether it is a registered share or bearer share.

said his point was that, if that were so, according to the provisions of this clause, there was no such thing as a bearer security.

hoped that the Minister would recognise that this was quite a reasonable point.

said that this clause applied only to cases of marketable security where duty was payable. Was duty payable in respect of a bearer security? He should say not. How did they levy tribute on a transaction which was by bearer?

said he was sorry that his hon. friend did not give notice of his amendment. This was a technical question which required very careful consideration. If the hon. member would put the amendment on the order paper he (Mr. Hull) was willing that the clause should stand over.

said that he would withdraw his amendment for the present, and move it on the report being brought up from the committee.

asked whether it was customary to move amendments without notice? “There is,” he added meaningly, “another rather important Bill which has been completely changed.”

The amendments moved by the Minister of Finance were agreed to.

moved a proviso dealing with transfer duty.

said that the Bill dealt with stamp, and not transfer, duties.

The proviso was ruled out of order.

On clause 22,

moved: In line 7, after “thereafter” to omit all the words from “by or in” down to and including “sub-section” in line 9, and to substitute “by or in the presence of the attorney, notary, conveyancer or law agent, by whom the instrument was drawn or prepared” in line 9; in line 17 to omit “receiver of revenue or other ”; in line 18, to omit “public” and to substitute “revenue”; in line 25, to omit “only ”; in line 26, to omit “and” and to substitute “but ”; in lines 29 and 30, to omit “the attesting official” and to substitute “an authorised revenue officer ”; in line 30, to omit “any public” up to and including “duties” in line 32. At the end of sub-section (8) to insert the following new sub section (9): “(9) For the purposes of this section or any other provision of this Act, relating to the stamping of, or defacements of stamps upon, instruments, an authorised revenue officer shall include the commissioner, or any receiver of revenue, or any civil commissioner; and, in the case of instruments relating to matters with which he is or may be officially concerned, shall include a registrar of a superior court, registrar of deeds, registrar of mining titles, master of a provincial or local division of the Supreme Court, clerk of an inferior court, or any other public officer deputed by the Minister of Finance by notice in the ‘ Gazette ’ to act as an authorised revenue officer.”

Agreed to.

On clause 23,

moved: In line 39, to omit “unstamped”; in line 41, to omit “no unstamped instrument” and after “shall” to insert “not.”

Agreed to.

On clause 25,

moved: In line 33, after “any” to insert “authorised ”; in the same line to omit “or other public ”; in line 39. after “every” to insert. “authorised”; in the same line, to omit “or other public” and “charged with the duty of defacing stamps ”; and in line 44, to omit “public” and to substitute “such.”

Agreed to.

On clause 26,

moved: To omit sub-section (3) and to substitute the following: “(3) The stamps on any other instrument may be defaced by any party there to or by any attorney, notary, conveyancer, or law agent, lawfully entitled to practise as such, and if not so defaced the stamp shall be defaced by the person liable under this Act to stamp the instrument.”

asked what provision was made for the use of proxies brought into the Union from outside? Owing to there being no provisions any person using such a proxy would be liable to a penalty?

said that any attorney, law agent, or notary authorised to practise could stamp them.

said that surely that did not meet the case, because under section 21, which provides who shall stamp, it said “the maker or person executing same.”

said that he had not read clause 21 aright. Clause 26 provided who might cancel and who might deface stamps.

Could it be defaced by the man who received the proxy?

Certainly. Supposing he does not want to, he can go to an attorney-at-law.

The amendment was agreed to.

On clause 28,

moved: In line 45. after “imprisonment” to insert “with hard labour,” and certain amendments in the Dutch version, which do not occur in the English version.

Agreed to.

On clause 29,

moved: In line 55, to omit “appointed” and to substitute “authorised”; and in line 56, to omit “or of any person who is or has been licensed to deal in stamps.”

Agreed to.

On clause 34.

moved: In line 51, to omit “nomination or appointment” and to substitute “authorisation.”

Agreed to.

On the first schedule,

moved: In the column “Extent of Repeal,” opposite the item, “Cape of Good Hope, Act No. 16 of 1909,” after “sections 6, 7, 8, and 9,” to insert “10.”

I accept it.

asked when the stamp duty on patent medicines would be done away with? The stamp duties were repealed in the schedule, but in section 1 it said the stamp duties must continue to be paid until repealed by law.

said the hon. member should look at section 8.

referred to a stamp duty of 7s. 6d. on certain receipts. Might it not be argued that this 7s. 6d. came in as a fee?

moved, in the first schedule, opposite Act of the Cape of Good Hope, No. 39 of 1908, to strike out the words “except paragraph B.” The effect would be that the stamp duties at present payable on cartridges in the Cape Province would disappear.

said that in the matter of leases he had looked up the question, and found the stamping was not on the aggregate value, but on the value of the rental. He wished to move an amendment.

said that he could not accept an amendment.

The amendments were agreed to.

On the second schedule,

moved: In line 4 of item 1, to make “offices” in the singular; in line 9 of item 1, to omit “of” after “pension” and to substitute “by ”; in line 4 of item 3, after “merchandise” to insert “(including livestock and agricultural produce) ”; in line 2 of item 6, after “average” to insert “monthly ”; in line 12 of item 7, to omit “the ”; in item 19, line 23 on page 34, to omit “viz.,” and to substitute “for example”; in line 25, after “of” to insert “a ”; in line 3 of item 20. to omit “a special power” and to substitute “any power of attorney whatsoever ”; and in item 21, line 4 of page 36, after “by a bank” to insert “or a notary.”

Agreed to.

Clause 1,

moved: In lines 8 and 13, after “Act” to insert “or thereafter.”

moved that the following be included after “shall”: “unless otherwise specifically provided in this Act.”

said he did not think that such an amendment was necessary.

said that the amendment could do no harm; it would be a further safeguard.

said that he, too, thought the amendment unnecessary.

said that the same words were in clause 1 (a).

said that licences were different to fees of office.

The Minister’s amendment was agreed to, and Mr. Alexander’s withdrawn.

moved to report progress, and asked leave to sit again.

Progress was reported and leave granted to sit again on Monday.

drew attention to the large number of temporary men employed, and particular attention to the state of affairs at the Cape. The Cape Department were feeling very uneasy at the present moment. They wanted to have an assurance that if there were to be retrenchment, they were not going to keep the temporary men and retrench the men on the fixed establishment. They also asked that if there were to be any reduction of staff, the Cape Department would not be retrenched alone.

asked whether an engineer had been appointed in Natal who was drawing a pension of £210, and whether, if that were so, he would receive his pension in addition to his salary.

asked the Minister to explain to the House the relative functions of the Provincial Administration and the Public Works Department of the Union in regard to public works in the future. He hoped that there was no intention to set up five Public Works Departments in this country.

said that if retrenchment were necessary, temporary men would go before fixed men. Any retrenchment that took place would, as far as possible, be effected all over the Union, and where necessary. He should not discriminate in favour of one Province against another. (Hear, hear.) As to the question raised by the hon. member for Cape Town, Central (Mr. Jagger), the Natal Provincial Council had appointed to the position a retired Civil Servant. As to the question of pension, the ordinary rule was that if the salary and pension were more than the salary he had before, then the pension dropped. If not, only so much of the pension was added as would make up what he had received before. As to the point raised by the hon. member (Mr. Currey), he was quite at one with the hon. member on the question that five Public Works Departments should not be built up in the Union.

inquired under whose authority roads in the Transvaal were placed?

said that in the Transvaal the construction and making of roads had been under the central Government. In the Cape Colony it was under the Divisional Councils. After Union the roads in the Transvaal were assigned to the Provincial Council. In the Cape Colony roads would be maintained by the Divisional Council, as before.

asked why seven district engineers had been appointed, as against six last year?

asked for an explanation as to item “O.” incidental and extraordinary expenditure, £2,500.

asked whether, after the retirement of the caretaker at Groote Schuur, the Public Works Department had nominated a man who was in the service to take his place, and whether the appointment had been given to a man who was not in the service?

explained that item “O” was intended to meet unforeseen expenses, and added that he did not think it would be found too much. With reference to the caretaker at Groote Schuur, the hon. member was quite correct. He (Sir David) was about to appoint somebody from the service, but he had obtained for the position a man who was formerly in the service, and who had had experience of similar work at Groot Constantia and elsewhere. He thought the appointment, which was temporary, was in the interests of economy.

said it appeared to him that item “O” was of exactly the same nature as the one which had been struck out of the Treasury vote. He moved to delete the item.

asked, with reference to sub-head “D,” rent, £59,500, what that was for, and whether it would not pay the Government better to have buildings of its own, instead of paying so much for rent?

said he hoped his hon. friend would not accuse him of working the parish pump, but he would like to draw the Minister’s attention to the condition of the public offices at George. The accommodation for the Commissioner was very poor, and he hoped his hon. friend would look into the matter during the recess, and see if something could not become to improve matters.

again raised the question of the retiring of Mr. Glen-Day.

said the man that was sent to the Free State was only engineer temporarily there.

Why has Mr. Glen-Day been retired?

Well, I will give my hon. friend the reason. Mr. Glen-Day was in charge of irrigation, bridges, and roads. The irrigation in the Free State was taken over by the Union Irrigation Department, the roads by the Provincial Council, and the bridges will be looked after by the Public Works Department. A chief engineer was no longer required, and under the circumstances we were not prepared to keep one there.

said his objection was that when they had a man in the Free State who knew the condition for years, another man was sent to do the same work for the same salary. That seemed to him a very peculiar kind of economy. He would like to know whether the heads of departments at Pretoria invariably selected men whom they knew, and if they had any conscience for other people. It was extraordinary that they could not find an older man to retire than Mr. Glen-Day.

said his hon. friend was quite wrong in thinking that there was any favouritism in this or any other appointment. Personally, he was satisfied that this was the best arrangement. The matter had been gone into carefully, and the change had been made after consultation with gentlemen who knew a great deal about Free State affairs.

thanked the Minister for his official reply, but it did not meet his point, that they had appointed another man at the same salary

hoped that the Government would make a rule that before they appointed any outsider in future they would, wherever possible, give the appointment to a man on pension.

drew attention to the condition of the Post Office at Port Elizabeth, which he hoped the Minister would remedy.

drew attention to the condition of the Post Office at Queenstown. The building was in a most dilapidated condition, and he hoped that something would be done to renovate it. He saw no vote for any repairs to this building, and if he could not have any done, he would ask the Minister to instruct a local plumber to put in a few ventilators. Not only the operators, but the public also, were greatly inconvenienced by the condition of the building.

said that the public offices at Beaufort West wore in a sad condition; and he trusted that the Minister would see that something was done. Then he would like to ask when the telephone system would be extended beyond Worcester, because they were all desirous—

said that vote 40 dealt with posts and telegraphs.

drew attention to the condition of the old mountain pass—Rain’s Pass.

asked if it was intended to re-establish the Public Works Department at Kimberley?

asked for some information regarding the grants to local authorities (£970) in regard to fire brigade.

asked whether the position of Inspector of Roads and Buildings in the Orange Free State had yet been filled up?

made an appeal for something to be done to the public buildings at Humans-dorp, because at present the roof leaked and the books got wet.

said that it was desirable that something should be done to the road between Bloemhof and Hoopstad.

That’s a Provincial matter. (Laughter.)

said the condition of the public buildings at Mossel Bay was on a par with others mentioned.

That will come under the next vote.

said he had made a note of the suggestions of hon. members regarding the renovation and repair of public buildings, and he had to say there were a great many Government buildings which required repairs. Hon. members would see that they had a larger vote this year for that purpose, so that they could give special attention to it; but it was very difficult to attend to all these buildings at the same time. One had to find out where repairs were most urgent and necessary, and these would start first. The Government owned public buildings valued at £9,000,000, and they all required a good deal of renovation, and more especially in the Cape Province, where they Shad been starved, and now required a good deal of attention. With the money at their disposal they would endeavour to do what they could. As to the matter of the amount of £2,500 referred to by the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg, he hoped he would not press the suggestion. He had already reduced the grant considerably from what it was last year. There were public works which they could not make provision for, and therefore defrayed the amounts out of this amount. Of course, no amount was spent before it was authorised. If they did not do as he suggested, they had to run to the Treasury for a Governor’s warrant which, in his mind, was undesirable.

in withdrawing his amendment, said he did not want to press the hon. gentleman; but the amount was put under “incidental and extraordinary expenditure,” which might lead to anything. If the Minister struck out “extraordinary” it would meet the case.

agreed with the hon. gentleman. He thought that “extraordinary” should be struck out, but “incidental” was all right. He moved accordingly.

said he had no objection to striking out “extraordinary.” To his mind it served very much the same purpose.

asked for a reply to his question.

said that at present they paid £370 to Cape Town as a grant for fire brigades; £300 to Pretoria, and £300 to Johannesburg. The matter would be taken into consideration, because all fire brigades did not get their grants. He did not think it was advisable to stop any of the grants, as made in the past in most of the old capitals. They did not pay full rates in all of the capitals.

The amendment to delete “extraordinary” was agreed to.

asked why £3,000 had not been placed on the Estimates for a Resident Magistrate’s Court at Heidelberg?

moved: On page 252, under “Department of Public Health,” to insert a new item as follows: “Additions to Lunatic Asylum, Fort Beaufort, £1,600.”

What is a refractory telescope? (Laughter.) I know what a refracting telescope is.

asked if the Helpmakaar buildings would be finished this year?

asked the Minister to look into the question of the Woodstock Magistrate’s buildings. The foundations had been laid for six or seven years, and he thought the Minister might put down a certain sum for the building.

said that, in Ladismith, they had the same hired, cramped post office for the past 30 years. It was most inconvenient, both to officials and the public, and he sincerely trusted that the Minister would see that something was done as soon as possible.

asked if anything had been done with regard to taking over Barkly Bridge?

said he thought that, before they went in for improvements to buildings, they should consider the places where there was no Magistrate’s residence.

pleaded for a telephone for Amersfoort, six miles from Volksrust. At present, the post office there was too small even for a telephone to be installed.

urged the need of providing better public buildings at Clanwilliam.

said that Clanwilliam ought to meet the difficulty in the way that Victoria West had done, by raising a local loan in the first instance, getting their buildings erected, and obtaining from the Government a grant equal to the rent they had been paying.

asked how they could expect the money to go round when they had a place like Standerton receiving £18,000 for Government buildings, court-house, etc.

said that this was a re-vote.

pleaded the cause of the public buildings at Mount Ayliff.

urged that the time had arrived when the public buildings at Mossel Bay should be put into better order.

asked whether provision was going to be made for the Agricultural College at Pretoria?

That will come out of loan.

complained about certain items in connection with the Grootfontein Agricultural College, and urged that these were excessive.

said that the right hon. gentleman had raised a question about the refractory telescope at Johannesburg.

said that he would repeat his question. The item in the Estimates was “visual refractory telescope.” It ought to be “refracting telescope.” He should say that a “refractory telescope” was a telescope that would not work—refractory. (Laughter.)

said that he would bow to the right hon. gentleman’s designation of the telescope, not that it mattered very much to him whether it was “refracting” or “refractory.” (Laughter.) He was informed that the term used in the Estimates was the correct one. (Hear, hear.) This telescope was practically completed, with the exception of the dome, which they were waiting for. As to the questions regarding the different public buildings desired, the Public Works Department was prepared to consider the question of their erection when they were referred to it in the usual form. No provision had been made to take over Barkly Bridge. That was a matter for the Provincial Council to consider in the first place. With reference to the matter of dipping tanks, he would point out that the Public Works Department had not dealt with that since Union, but if called upon to build dipping tanks he would endeavour to see that they were constructed as cheaply as possible.

asked for information as to the item, £1,000 for picture of the National Convention. Was that the whole cost?

said that there was an understanding between the several Governments that a picture should be painted of the members of the National Convention. Mr. Roworth was the artist who had been commissioned. £1,000 was the full cost.

The amendment was agreed to.

moved a reduction of £100 in the item.: Salary of Postmaster-General and Secretary for Posts and Telegraphs. He did so, he said, in order to get information as to the intention of the Government in regard to the appointment of a permanent Postmaster-General It was desirable that the appointment should be made while Parliament was sitting. There had (been rumours that the new Postmaster-General to be appointed was someone outside the Service. He hoped the Minister would give the (House the assurance that the gentleman appointed would be one who was in the Service at present, or who had lately been in the Service. It seemed to him also that a Union Postal Guide should immediately be published. Here they were nearly 12 months old as a Union, and there was no Union Postal Guide. There were other matters he would like information upon. For instance, he noticed if a letter was re-directed by the public, a change was made in the Cape Province, whereas it was free in the other Provinces. Telegrams sent on Sundays, also, were Changed double rates in the Cape Province and the Free State, whereas they were sent at ordinary rates in the Transvaal and Natal. Then the inland parcel post charges were different in some of the other Provinces. The Conference of Postmasters-General some months ago stated these rates were very high, and they strongly urged that they should be reduced. He noticed also that the services rendered to other departments by the Post Office amounted to £101,000. That was only an estimate, however, and if a department could send telegrams without being charged, that was an actual loss to the Post Office. Every department, in his opinion, ought to be charged, and a proper account kept. Only by keeping a proper check upon such matters could they hope to have economic administration. The Conference of Postmasters-General strongly urged that these departmental services should be paid for in cash, instead of being entered. Then there was the question of the telegraphic rates to Rhodesia. The Charge was 2d. per word, and a minimum of 2s. He noticed that the Rhodesian Government were in a far better position, financially, and he thought the Minister should endeavour to obtain some reduction in these rates, because out of a charge of 2s. for a telegram, the Union only got 6d. Then there was the question of posting letters on corridor trains; that would ‘be a great convenience, and he was sure it would be much appreciated by the travelling public. He thought also that the system of letter boxes should be encouraged, they were cheaper, he was told, by 60 per cent., than the ordinary delivery of letters. Again, the system of express parcel delivery had been advocated for some time, and was well worth the department bearing the matter in mind.

expressed his thanks for the manner in which the Minister had always received him on matters affecting the Post Office in his constituency, and said he would like to draw his attention to the shortage of staff reported in various parts of the Union, and ask what steps the Government intended to take regarding it? They were real shortages of staff, and in some places were serious shortages. Another point he wished to draw attention to was the difference in the rates of overtime in different parts of the Union, and this caused a great deal of dissatisfaction among the officers of the department. There should be a uniform system of paying overtime, because the same work was done in every place. He thought that the man in the country should be treated the same as the man in the town. Regarding the question of vacation leave: on paper the men were entitled to certain leave, but they could not always get it. One gentleman who had been waiting for ten years for his leave, because they could not spare him, had no preference. He was on the same basis as the man who had only been waiting four years. Then, again, a man wanting to get married could only get one day’s leave. It seemed as if the Government wished to encourage hasty marriages. He also wished to know what the Government were going to do about the petition of the learners in regard to appointments? They were kept back owing to the depression, and they thought they should be placed on a proper basis. Another point; was the contradictory decisions since Union with regard to grievances brought to the notice of the Government. Why should one man be allowed to state grievances before the Commission and another not allowed to do so? A remarkable thing had also happened regarding provincial conditions. They were very divergent, and in some cases were advantageous, and in another a disadvantage. Where it was a disadvantage, the men were told that the conditions could not yet be altered. A matter that affected the staff greatly was the great delay that took place at present in dealing with official complaints that came from the staff. One instance was when the Circulation Branch at Cape Town recently requested an interview with the Minister, and the letter was detained for a month, and a letter containing a grievance from the Queenstown office received no reply for four months. He hoped the Minister would be able to assure them that these were ordinary delays. Dealing with the Travelling Post-office, he drew attention to the dangerous conditions under which the men worked. He asked the Minister whether he could not introduce less dangerous conditions? Could not electric light be substituted for the dangerous oil-lamps?

asked the Minister for information regarding the reorganisation of the Post Office.

asked why certain Natal men had been placed on pension?

asked how the sale of the Union commemorative stamps had gone on? Several millions had been issued, but as far as he could see, they had not been taken up as they should have been. He also referred to the speech of the Minister of Finance regarding retrenchment, and said that if the services of some pensioned men would be invaluable to the State at the present time, he thought the Minister should utilise the power he held, and recall these men.

said he would appeal to the Minister on behalf of the press, that he would take into consideration the advisability of reducing the cost of press messages between the various Provinces. He thought the Hon. the Minister would admit that it was well that the various Provinces should be in the possession of facts as soon as possible, and as fully as possible, so that (he people would be able to follow the proceedings in Parliament. If the Minister would take this into consideration, he was sure he would be doing what was acceptable to most of the members of the House. (Hear, hear.)

referring to the parcel post, said that in far-off places the post-carts had been turned into transport wagons. Then he had seen post-carts loaded with telegraph material that should have been sent by other conveyances. He thought that a rule should be laid down whereby the amount to be carried by the post-carts should be stated.

said he did not think that telegrams should be sent as freely as ordinary days on Sundays, but he thought it was a matter of life and death in some cases that telegraph offices should be open for one hour on Sundays, the assistants to be paid overtime for this work.

said he hoped he would be excused for taking up the time of the House at that late hour; but it was a great misfortune that this vote came on now, because many hon. members had to bring matters to the notice of the Hon. Minister on behalf of their constituents. He had been asked by his constituents to bring to the notice of the Minister the postal communication which was out off during the time of retrenchment—he meant between Wollaston and Carnarvon. The line of traffic went that way, and it was the rail head to Carnarvon. He thought they should have one post a week, and understood it would only cost £100.

asked that Worcester should have an opportunity of sending postal matter, not only by the usual trains, but also by the two fast mails.

referred to the question of branch posts. He expressed a hope that the Minister would try and realise the conditions under which people lived who applied for branch posts. He also drew attention to the under-staffing of country post offices.

said he hoped the Minister would take into consideration the rates charged for press telegrams. If they wanted to make this Union Government a success they would have to get the people in the most distant parts, somehow or other, in touch with the capital here.

said he hoped the Minister would take into consideration the raising of the press rates to three or four times the amount in case of messages containing obviously partial accounts of the proceedings of that Parliament. (A laugh.)

also drew attention to country postal facilities, or the want of them. He hoped that the Minister would devote his attention to the post between Belmont and Jacobsdal, which was not sufficiently frequent, and to the post in the district of Boshof. He did not think there was another district in the Union which was treated as badly as Boshof. Tenders had been called for in connection with an improved service, but there the matter rested.

referred to the unsatisfactory position in regard to Onder Berg (Natal) post-cart service.

spoke of the want of certain postal facilities in Hartebeestfontein and Rooijantjesfontein, Lichtenburg, which he hoped would receive the serious consideration of the Minister.

said that in reference to Mr. Sampson’s question regarding postmen’s uniforms, he might say that postmen were at present supplied with two khaki uniforms per annum. With reference to the printers, whose salaries appeared on the Estimates, a printer and an assistant had been employed for many years past in connection with the issue of the department’s notices, and the employment of these two men was very necessary to facilitate the business of the department. The hon. member for Georgetown moved a reduction, with a view to getting a statement on the appointment of a Postmaster-General. He asked whether it was the intention of the Government to go outside the Service to fill this appointment? The gentleman who was acting as Postmaster-General was secretary to the Post Office in Cape Colony. This was the first time that he had heard the suggestion that anybody should be appointed outside the Service. It would be invidious for him to give any assurance, seeing that no appointment would be made until after the report of the Civil Service Commission.

referred again to the matter of the Onder Berg post-cart service, urging that the service could be accelerated by taking a different route.

said his point in regard to the employment of printers was that one of the printers was getting a less wage than an ordinary journeyman.

said he had no information regarding the Onder Berg postcart, but he would make inquiries. As regarded the question of the two printers, he would make inquiries in this case also.

withdrew his amendment.

Progress was reported, and leave granted to sit again on Monday.