from M. N. Krynauw, a teacher.

from the Theunissen Branch of the Oranje Women Association, for capital punishment for rape or attempted rape (two petitions).

from F. A. Smit (superintendent), A. M. Smit (matron) and G. J. Coetzee, B. L. Hattingh, and W. H. Jooste (attendants), of the Pretoria Asylum, late South African Republic.

from Annie Forde, widow of John Forde, late foreman platelayer, Natal Government Railways.

from residents of Senekal and of Ficksburg, for new fencing legislation (two petitions).

Proposed grant of land on Upper Kabousie Commonage, Stutterheim, for school purposes; proposed further grant of land for school purposes at Upington, Gordonia.

These papers were referred to the Select Committee on Waste Lands.

Special resolution to amplify Articles of Association by Standard Bank of South Africa, Limited.

Correspondence relating to the appointment of Mr. W. E. Gurney as Controller and Auditor-General.

Will the Prime Minister state what arrangements he will make as to the holidays? Do you intend sitting on Saturday and Monday, or adjourn on Thursday night until Tuesday?

I shall make a statement later—

As soon as you can—

went on to say that the intention at present was not to sit on Good Friday, but sit on Saturday, and probably on Monday.

asked the Prime Minister whether seeing he had at his disposal the experience of experts on agriculture and stock farming, he would take into consideration the desirability of having a Farmers’ Encyclopaedia compiled land published, and sold to farmers at cost price?

replied that the Government was of opinion that the time had not yet arrived to publish a Farmers’ Encyclopædia; but any trustworthy information would be published in the “Agricultural Journal,” and pamphlets and circulars would be issued.

Would it not be possible for the Agricultural Department to issue annually extracts from the “Agricultural Journal,” dealing with more settled matters—things of abiding interest?

said that a pamphlet had already been published in connection with cattle diseases.

asked the Prime Minister whether he would take into consideration the desirability of making the status of field-cornets uniform throughout the Union?

replied that the duties of the field-cornets in the different Provinces varied to such an extent that a careful investigation was necessary before it could be decided that a change in the status of field-cornets was necessary; and if such a change was necessary, in what direction the change should be made.

Such an investigation would be made, and the fullest consideration would be given to the result of that investigation.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) How many criminal prosecutions under Act No. 38 of 1905 (Natal) were instituted during the past month in respect of poll tax due or the current year; and (2) how many similar prosecutions were instituted during the month of March, 1910, in respect of poll tax due for the year 1910?

(1) Europeans, 94; others, 329; total, 423; (2) Europeans, 10; others, 86; total, 96. Under section 6 of Act No. 38 of 1905, proceedings may not be taken against natives until after May 31 in any year in respect of poll tax due on January 1 immediately preceding.

on behalf of Mr. Quinn (Troyeville) asked whether there were any amounts still due to the Government from the Central Agency for Co-operative Societies, and, if, so, how much?

replied that the amount still due to the Government was £996, but a final settlement would shortly be reached.

asked the Minister of Finance whether he was aware that the transfer to the Treasury Office at Pretoria of the payment of pensions granted by the Government of the Colony of the Cape of Good Hope had taken away the legal remedy which a creditor had of attaching pensions for the purpose of bringing a Cape Colony pensioner within the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court of the Cape Province, and, if so, whether he would arrange that pensions granted by the Cape Colony Government would in future be paid at Cape Town or elsewhere within the Cape Province.

asked that the question stand over.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he is aware that since the 15th of March last only one Judge of the Cape of Good Hope Provincial Division of the Supreme Court has been available for the ordinary work of the Court as well as for the Criminal Sessions; (2) whether in consequence the sittings of the Criminal Sessions, have had to be interrupted to enable the presiding Judge to deal with urgent civil matters; (3) whether a large amount of civil work has accumulated and cannot at present be dealt with; and (4) whether the Government is prepared to take into consideration the advisability of temporarily transferring one additional Judge to the Cape of Good Hope Provincial: Division of the Supreme Court from some other part of the Union, where his services may not be so urgently required?

replied: At the present moment there are three Judges available for Bench and Chamber work in Cape Town, and there will be four on the return of the Hon. the Judge-President from Bloemfontein at the end of the current month. There is no Judge available for transfer from any of the other divisions of the Supreme Court at present. While Conditions were somewhat as implied in the question about March 15, the bulk of the civil work has now been disposed of, and the little that was left will probably be dealt with to-day.

asked the Prime Minister: (1) What is the wage paid to attendants and messengers attached to the House of Assembly, giving it at the rate per day; and (2) what are the average hours per working day they are on duty, taking the month of March now last past as a basis?

replied: I have to inform the House that as this question relates to attendant land messengers in the employ of the House of Assembly and joint Parliamentary establishment, Mr. Speaker has caused me to be furnished with the following memorandum by the Clerk of the House, viz.: “The votes of the House of Assembly and joint Parliamentary expenses are administered by me, and the permanent messengers and permanent employees of these two establishments are paid the salaries and wages respectively which figure on the Estimates of Expenditure. These men, like all permanent officials, have no fixed hours, and must attend to their duties as long as the exigencies of the departments require it; they are not paid for overtime, and as the Parliamentary service is of a peculiar nature, and distinct from the public service generally, I am opposed to payment for overtime to permanent officials and employees. I must say, however, in regard to these permanent men, it has already been noted that if the present session proves a correct index to the sessions of the Union Parliament, their position, will have to be reconsidered in the near future. The cleaners in the Houses of Parliament are practically in lour permanent employ. The odder hands receive 6s. 7d. per diem, while the new hands, taken on recently owing to the increased work in connection with the new wing to these buildings, receive 6s per diem. They also receive uniforms and boots. The temporary sessional hands are on a different footing; they are on duty from a quarter to seven a.m. to not more than half an hour after the House rises, with the usual intervals for meals. They are paid at the rate of £7 10s. per month; but receive as bonus an additional £1 per month if their conduct is satisfactory throughout the session. They are further paid for night sittings an overtime allowance ranging from 1s. 6d. to 5s. per night, according to the time they are detained; they also receive tunics. Their average salary for March works out at £10 5s. 6d. This scale of wages has obtained for many years in the late Cape Parliament, and was approved as the scale for this session by the Internal Arrangements Committee of this House. It may be remarked that when I had to engage temporary hands in October Last for the present session, a much larger number applied than was required, although applications were not specially invited. I may add that I have not, nor has any official on my staff, received or heard of any complaint or indication of discontent on the part of any attendant or messenger.”

asked the Minister of Finance whether any steps had been taken to reopen the Mint in Pretoria; and, if not, whether the Government intended to take such steps?

No steps have been taken by the Government towards reopening the Mint at Pretoria. This question is receiving consideration, but I am not in a position to say what will be ultimately decided upon. In any case the Government’s proposals will be submitted to Parliament before anything definite is done.

asked the Minister of Justice whether he was aware: (1) That under the existing laws of Rhodesia, attorneys-at-law who have qualified by passing the Cape law certificate examination of the Cape Universities are admitted to practise in Rhodesia; (2) that attorneys-at-law who have qualified by passing the law certificate examinations of the Transvaal, Orange Free State, and Natal, which are held under the auspices of the Cape University, are not admitted to practise in Rhodesia; and (5) whether the Government is prepared to take into consideration the advisability of making representations to the Government of Rhodesia with a view to similar treatment being accorded to attorneys-at-law from other parts of the Union, to that which now prevails in regard to attorneys-at-law from the Cape Province, by means of amending legislation?

I am instituting inquiries, but am not yet in receipt of the requisite information to reply to this question.

asked: (1) Whether among the tenders received for the construction of the Union buildings at Pretoria tenders were received from Messrs. Reid Knuckley; (2) whether this firm tendered to carry out contracts Nos. 1 and 2 for the sum of £585,000; (3) whether the tender of Messrs. Meischke for the same contracts was £622,500; and i(4) if the answer to the above questions is in the affirmative, why the tender from Messrs. Meischke was accepted in preference to the lower tender received from an admittedly well-known and reputable firm?

said that his hon. friend the Minister of Public Works had not yet been able to obtain the information desired from Pretoria. He would suggest that the matter stand over.

asked: (1) What is the number of injuries which have been sustained by stationmasters, engine-drivers, foremen, guards, shunters, and examiners in the employ of the South African Railways (a) since Union, and (b) during the last six: months; (2) what compensation has been paid to sufferers; and (3) what is the nature of the injury in each case?

replied that he could not give all the information in detail at once. He would, however, give instructions that the information be supplied as soon as possible. He was not sure, however, that it would be supplied very soon.

asked the Minister of Finance whether it had been brought to his notice that in the Orange Free State Province an auction duty of 2 per cent, was payable to the Government, whereas no such duty existed in the other Provinces; and, if so, whether he would take steps to relieve the Orange Free State of this duty, so that a uniform practice may obtain in all the Provinces?

I am aware that an auction duty is in force in the Free State, and that a like duty in the other Provinces has ceased to exist. I hope to be in a position next session to deal with this matter in the revision of the fiscal Laws which will have to be undertaken.

asked the Minister of Finance: (1) Whether the Government is aware that trapping of chemists is still taking place in Cape Town in connection with “patent and proprietary medicine stamps ”; (2) whether the Minister of Finance will use his influence to put a stop to this irritation caused to the profession and the general public in view of his Budget speech; and (3) whether the Government is prepared to make a refund of the value of patent and proprietary medicine stamps fixed on unsold articles exposed for sale, and of unused stamps held in stock at the time of the repeal of the stamp duty?

The Stamp Duties Bill now before the House contains a provision for the repeal of the patent medicines duty as from July 1 next. An impression seems to have got abroad amongst chemists and druggists that pending repeal the duty would not be enforced. It has been found necessary to issue a reminder to the trade, and in one or two cases where the reminders were openly neglected it has been necessary to issue a further warning and take proceedings. If evasion continues to take place I can give no undertaking against proper means being adopted to prevent evasion.

moved that the petitions from J. H. Neethling and 85 others, T. G. Walters and 17 others, N. Hagen and 16 others, A. S. Lawrence and 24 others, J. W. Tromp and 62 others, and W. J. Baard and 20 others, presented to the House on the 12th December, 1910, and from P. Greeff and 59 others, inhabitants of the village of Hopefield and surrounding districts, presented to the House on the 10th February, 1911, praying for the establishment of a separate fiscal division, be referred to the Government for inquiry and report.

seconded

Agreed to.

moved: That in the opinion of this House the Government should take into consideration the desirability of placing upon the Supplementary Estimates a sum of money to be devoted to the encouragement of the destruction of noxious carnivora, chiefly the red or silver-hacked jackal.

seconded.

said that the House and Government had been rather impatient in regard to agricultural matters, pointing to the fact that the Agricultural Pests Bill was forced through committee in one afternoon and one evening sitting, extending into the small hours of the following morning. He held that that was not the way in which to conduct the business of the House. The destruction of jackals throughout South Africa was a very important matter, as it affected the most important agricultural industry in the country, namely, the small-stock industry. To prove the importance of that industry and the necessity of destroying jackals, he quoted the returns of 1910, showing that wool brought in a revenue of £3,830,000, mohair £903,000, goatskins £274,000, and sheepskins £603,000. In addition, there was the ostrich industry, which was very largely affected. The revenue from ostrich feathers totalled considerably over £2,272,000. As regarded the small Stock, he pointed to the fact that the quantity of meat consumed within the Union was very large, and as regarded skins, there was a large quantity consumed here in various ways. Now, he thought an industry like this deserved more consideration from the Government than it had received hitherto. It was true that they had been spending on an average £12,000 a year in the Cape on the destruction of vermin They had to add to this a portion of the very inconsiderable amount given to agricultural snows, in which the small stock of the country had a certain share. That would raise the figure somewhat, but in any case the total sum was a very small amount indeed for the Central Government to spend on this important industry. Now, in regard to the policy pursued in the past of giving rewards for jackals’ tails, it would be admitted that they had gone too far, and that they had wasted a lot of money on destroying animals for which no reward should have been given at all. If they had confined it to this particular jackal, they would have had much better results. In this connection, the hon. member referred to the report of the Cape Select Committee on this matter in 1904. Continuing, he said he believed the individual farmer was able to cope with every other animal but this jackal, but owing to it being a roving animal, he could not cope with it without co-operation with his neighbours. The difficulty was to secure cooperation among the farmers; if one stood out, the efforts of the others were useless. That was the reason for the failure of the poisoning clubs. It was not only the farmers who failed to co-operate. He reminded the House that the merchants of South Africa, with all their capital and resources, had failed to co-operate against a monopoly, and had been obliged to come to the House the other day for assistance, just as the farmers were doing now. Continuing, Mr. Maasdorp said that the injury done by the depredations of these jackals was incalculable. First of all, there was the direct loss of stock, which was enormous. Then, owing to the kraaling system, the condition of the stock deteriorated, and that inferior condition caused an inferior quality of wool. Then the kraal system, with its dirt and so on, directly affected the quality of the wool. As long as that system prevailed in this country, they would never be able to produce wool which could come into competition with the Australian. Then there were indirect loss and injury caused to the country through the kraal system. It was a very serious matter, because upon this question of the kraal system defended the whole prosperity of stock-farming. He knew the Government was disposed to come to the assistance of the farmer in the matter of fencing. Well, that was a good way, but unless fencing went hand in hand with the destruction of the jackal, it could not be successful. Fencing was admittedly a great safeguard, but it was not everything. The farmer would not be safe until means were devised of killing the jackals outside their fences. Moreover, there were few farmers who could afford to avail themselves of the opportunities offered by the Government in regard to fences. The cheapest way for the country to get rid of this plague was by direct destruction. It would be far less costly in the end, for then there would be no necessity for this expensive kind of fencing. Those of them who lived on the veld, and had seen the destruction that was going on, were filled with nothing but sadness if they had any feeling of patriotism for the country. Mr. Maasdorp referred to the deterioration of veld which had taken place during the past few decades, and urged that the only way to arrest this was to get rid of the jackal, and allow their stock to run night and day. He considered that this was a State question, and not a question to be dealt with merely by individual effort. He hoped the House would take a serious view of this matter, and that the motion would receive the sympathetic consideration of the Government.

said that the hon. member for Graaff-Reinet had asked the Government to place a sum on the Estimates for the destruction of jackals. In the same breath he stated that the exports of wool, ostrich feathers, hides, etc., amounted to the large sum of eight millions sterling annually. It was, therefore, some consolation to know that the jackal had not entirely destroyed the animals of this country. Another reason that the hon. member gave why the Government should assist them was because these jackals were roving animals. Well, they were roving animals. He remembered that in the Cape House of Assembly they used to pay 7s. 6d. per head for the destruction of these jackals on the production of the tails. They were indeed roving animals. They used to rove into the Cape Colony from the Transvaal and the Free State into the best market. (Laughter.) Eventually, a Select Committee sat on this matter, and he would advise hon. members to read the report of that Select Committee. They could hardly realise that unsophisticated people living on the borders could have been guilty of such malpractices as were exposed before that committee. It was almost hinted that jackals’ tails were manufactured in. Birmingham, and brought out to this country. (Laughter.) In one year this Colony paid out, he thought, over £50,000, and the hon. member for Vryburg, who was not now in that House, and who gave the alarming statement that a million pounds worth of property was destroyed annually by these wild animals, they found received the largest amount for the destruction of these jackals of anybody in the Colony. (Laughter.)

said that Mr. Maasdorp had stated his case so well that he did not need to add much more. Dealing with the question referred to by Colonel Harris, he said that they had overcome the difficulty by demanding that not only should the tail be brought, hut also the head. The difficulty about, the Free State of course had ceased to exist, because the country was one now. Mr. Hull might say that more money would be necessary if they decided to pay so much for every jackal killed, but he thought that they should devote the proceeds of the dog tax to that purpose. If a reward were offered for jackals, they would find that the man who now did least to exterminate the pest would do his best—simply because of the money he could make out of it—although the progressive farmer always did his utmost to kill as many jackals as he could. If the jackals were exterminated the country would benefit indirectly to a great extent, because scab would decrease owing to more favourable conditions of pasture. He hoped that the Prime Minister would be able to meet them. It would be possible to exterminate the jackal without legislation if only farmers would co-operate, but it would take a long time before that desirable degree of co-operation had come about.

said that he hoped it would not be thought that the whole Opposition were not in sympathy with the motion, because he certainly would like to see jackals exterminated. (Hear, hear.) He considered them a pest, only second to tick fever. It was absolutely necessary that something should be done to exterminate these jackals, because the number had of late years grown to such an extent that the value of land was depreciating, and people did not want to buy farms owing to the expense of jackal-proof fencing.

said that poison had been tried, but it had not proved successful, as the old animals were too smart. Jackal-proof fencing would not do everything either; and what was wanted were parties who would go about exterminating the animals, but farmers had no time to go a-hunting. It was for servants and bywoners to do that class of work, but they would not go in for it without a reward. If the jackals were exterminated, there would be very much less scab, because sheep would not then have to be kraaled.

moved, as an amendment, that the words “and wild dog and” be inserted after “chiefly.” (Laughter.) He spoke of the damage done by these animals, and said that everything should be done to exterminate them. In the Northern Transvaal, wild dogs tore young game to pieces, so that one might come across herds of game without any calves.

in seconding the amendment, said that Mr. Maasdorp was deserving of their best thanks for having introduced that motion. No more serious danger could threaten them than jackals, and if these pests were exterminated, the production of wool would increase, and it would be of much superior quality. The Government was a large breeder of jackals on the Cape Crown lands, whence they made raids into other districts.

said he was very pleased to see that the motion had met with very little opposition. The only opposition had come from the hon. member for Beaconsfield (Colonel Harris), who was quite wrong in what he had said. The speech of the hon. gentleman had struck him as if he wished to imply that the motion had been brought forward for the purpose of making money. That was not so. He had received petitions from people in the district which he represented regarding the jackal pest. Enormous sums of money had been spent in repairing irrigation works, which had been damaged in an indirect way by the jackals. He thought it would be a most unfortunate thing if the Government did not come to the assistance of the farmers. The small stock industry was sufficiently important to warrant something being done.

said that, whatever might be said to the contrary, the rewards which had been offered by the Cape Government for the extermination of jackals had had a good effect; and the recent increase in the number of these animals was due to these rewards being no longer paid. Unless there were a united effort, it would be of no use individual farmers trying to kill off these jackals. If the Government furnished poison it would not be of much effect, unless every farmer had to place poison for jackals on his farm at certain fixed periods. The hon. member alluded to the damage done by “rooikat-ten,” and moved, as a further amendment, that after the words “wild-dogs” the word “rooikat” be inserted. Wild dogs did a deal of damage in his constituency, and he supported the amendment to include them.

seconded the amendment.

said that what he had stated some years ago—that jackal-proof fencing alone was not sufficient —had come true. As to what Colonel Harris had said about the deceptions which once took place, the farmers were not the guilty parties, but natives who “manufactured” five or six tails from one jackal skin, and the ignorant Magistrates who had so easily been fooled.

said that when it had been advocated that 10s. should be paid for a jackal’s tail, he had opposed it, because he thought that 3s. was quite sufficient, and he was afraid that the trader would only come in and make a profit out of it. He described the great difficulty of destroying jackals, especially with poison, and the poison he had got some time ago had, he said, been of no use, as it was not strong enough. The rooikat was a great pest, and in difficult country farmers could do little without Government assistance.

said that there was hardly a country where there were stock farmers where rewards were not given for the extermination of such vermin as jackals. A rooikat was a difficult animal to kill, but not so difficult as a jackal. Co-operation was necessary if they wanted to exterminate jackals, but co-operation among farmers was difficult. The motion had been brought forward, not because they were not desirous of helping themselves, but because it was necessary that the Government should come to their assistance. He saw in the Transvaal Estimates a sum of £1,000 had been put down for the extermination of wild animals, and he could not see why the Government should not have met them in the Cape. In connection with East Coast fever, in addition to fencing, an amount was put down for the eradication of ticks by means of dipping, and therefore he thought that, in regard to jackal-proof fencing, the Government should also do something to exterminate jackals. He moved, as an amendment, to add at the end of the motion: “By means of contributions on the £ for £ principle, to Poisoning Clubs, Co-operative Farmers’ Associations, and other public bodies.”

seconded.

said he looked upon the amendment as a step in the right direction, although perhaps he did not quite agree with the way in which it was proposed to pay out the money. The £ for £ principle was, however, a sound one. He thought the hon. member for Graaff-Reinet had made about the strongest and most forcible statement that it was possible for any farmer to make, but he knew perfectly well that they used to have this subject up for many years in the Cape Parliament, and that they made grants year after year for these very purposes, and he thought the hon. member would admit that the results were not altogether satisfactory. Mr. Jagger quoted from a report of a Select Committee issued in August, 1909, to show the abuses and scandals which arose in connection with these grants, and went on to say that they did not want this system to start again, and with such results as the report disclosed. At the same time, he must confess that he was very much impressed with the statement made by his hon. friend as to the destruction caused by jackals and other wild animals, and he agreed that something should be done. (Hear, hear.) The only point on which he differed altogether from the hon. member for Graaff-Reinet was as to the proposal that the State should pay the whole of this money. If anybody benefited from the destruction of these wild animals it was the small stock farmer. Why could they not levy some small tax upon the small stock farmer upon the basis of the number of stock that he owned, and get a contribution from him, and let the State pay an equal amount? Mr. Jagger referred to the system adopted in Queensland in regard to stock diseases, and the formation of a stock fund, and urged that a similar scheme should be tried in this country. He thought such a system would have a twofold effect that would directly interest the farmers against any frauds being perpetrated, and it would lead to a more thorough destruction of the wild animals.

favoured the Government coming to the assistance of farmers not only in regard to the extermination of jackals, but also of rooikatten. In his constituency hounds had greatly minimised the evil, though in the Bredasdorp dunes jackals were breeding fast. Provision should be made for the matter on the Estimates.

said that he sympathised with the amendment moved by the hon. member for Swellendam, because he believed that if anything were to be done, it would have to be on the lines suggested in the amendment. It was wrong to say that kraaling necessarily meant the spread of scab. In reply to the hon. member for Colesberg, he wished to say that if the damage done by jackals was such as it was represented to be— and he had had painful experience of the damage done—then surely, without any reward from the Government, it was in the interests of the farmers that they themselves should destroy the jackals. This was a very difficult problem, and he would like to find out whether there was any possibility of doing something which would be really effective. In the Cape they had paid rewards for years for jackals’ skins; but he did not think there had been any appreciable diminution in the number of jackals in the country. (Cries of “Oh, oh.”) He wanted to know whether the proposal which was before the House was calculated to exterminate jackals, and whether the proposed reward or subsidy by the Government was going to be a tax on the country for all time.

said that it could not be denied that there had arisen a state of affairs when the Cape Government had given these rewards for jackals’ tails which could only be described as a scandal. (An HON. MEMBER: “Mismanagement?”) Well, he thought there had been a good deal of deception too. In 14 years a sum of £145,000 had been paid out by the Cape Government; and in 1898-99 no less than £28,000 had been paid. The amount had grown to such an extent that it had been found necessary to appoint a Select Committee, and it was not to be wondered at that there had been a certain amount of suspicion attached to the rewards paid for jackals’ tails. But having said that, he must add that there was also a good deal in what Mr. Maasdorp had said. There had been another Select Committee in 1904, of which Mr. Oosthuisen had been the Chairman, and one of its recommendations was that the £ for £ principle should be adopted. If the matter were again taken up it should be carefully considered, and the necessary steps taken to see that no more frauds were committed. Like the Select Committee of 1904, he was not in favour of the tail only having to be brought before a reward was paid, but also part of the head, as that would do away with any deception. The committee had also recommended jackal-proof fencing, and in 1909 the Cape Parliament had passed an Act dealing with the matter of vermin-proof fencing, but in the two years which had passed only £7,000 had been spent.

That only shows how impracticable the Act is.

Well, that Act was based on the recommendations of the Select Committee of 1904. He added that the matter had begun with jackals; then they had heard two kinds of jackals referred to, then rooikatten, and so on; he did not know how many more. (Laughter.) In conclusion, he said that he was in agreement with Mr. Oosthuisen’s amendment.

said that the Minister had poured a tale of woe into their ears, omitting however to state that the large sums expended in the past included rewards for all sorts of vermin and not for a few kinds of animals only, as contemplated by the motion. Surely they could make regulations in order to prevent fraud. If rewards were paid for the whole skin only, was there any reason to believe that the jackal in question would continue to breed? (Laughter.) Genuine farmers would be only too glad to kill a jackal when they caught it, because it was too dangerous a customer to be allowed to roam about.

said that Mr. Maasdorp could well say “Save me from my friends,” to judge from the number of amendments which had been moved. He thought that the whole matter was deserving of the best consideration of the Government, and hoped that the motion would be agreed to.

said that it was clear after the explanation given by Mr. Malan, that if the old system of rewards for jackals’ tails were revived, it would only lead again to frauds; and he would support Mr. Oosthuisen’s amendment. If people did not want to help themselves, he did not see why the Government should come to their assistance.

said it was true that abuses had occurred in the past, but they could no longer be perpetrated if the Government officials were at all up to their work. Latterly the Government wisely insisted that the whole skin of the jackal had to be produced, and on that basis the system worked admirably. With regard to the statement by Mr. Jagger that the results of the policy of offering rewards had not been satisfactory, that had not been the experience. The results had been satisfactory; the fault was the want of continuity in the policy. He referred to the report of the Select Committee which sat in 1904. With reference to the amendment of the hon. member for Jansenville (Mr. Oosthuisen), that struck at the root of the principle which he (Mr. Maasdorp) was trying to establish, which was that the farmers had a right to come to the House for protection. He would accept the amendment because half a loaf was better than no bread, but he did not accept it very willingly. He maintained it was the duty of the State to protect a man against his negligent neighbours. He spoke of the good which had been accomplished by the last grant for the purpose by the Progressive Ministry of the Gape. There was nothing in all the talk about breeding jackals.

The amendments were all agreed to.

The motion, as amended, was agreed to

moved that the petitions from D. J. de Wet and 91 others, and H. C. van Heerden and 86 others, residents and Divisional Council voters residing in portions of the Fiscal Divisions of Queenstown, Tarkastad, and Wodehouse, praying for the conversion of the Assistant Magistracy of Sterkstroom into a Fiscal Division, presented to the House on February 24, 1911, be referred to the Government for consideration.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved that the petition from G. H. Korff and 55 other inhabitants of the Ward Tzitzikamma, district Knysna, praying for the removal of certain irregularities in connection with the monthly auction sales, presented to the House on the 22nd February, 1911, be referred to the Government for inquiry and report. He said it was in the power of the Government to help the petitioners substantially in this matter by enabling them to get timber at Government prices.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the petition from the chairman and secretaries of the Geneva Association of Hotel Employees and the Helvetia Union of Hotel Employees in the Union, respectively praying for legislation regulating the conditions of employment by licensed victuallers, presented to the House on the 4th frist., be referred to the Government for consideration.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved that the petition from R. G. White and 29 others, residents and landowners at Pokwani, in the division of Vryburg, praying for the remission of unpaid instalments due to the Government on the purchase amounts of their farms, or for other relief, presented to the House on the 2nd March. 1911, be referred to the Government for consideration. He said that these petitioners received grants of land under Act 40, 1895. The object was to have their case referred to the Government for consideration. He thought that when the matter was gone into, it would be found that when the land was granted the valuation was altogether too high.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the petition from J. du Plessis and 30 others, residents of the district of Eden burg, Orange Free State, praying for the establishment of Government dip depots in the various towns in the Orange Free State, presented to the House on the 13th March, 1911, be referred to the Government for consideration.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the petition from the chairman and secretary of the Mohammedan Benefit Society of Cape Town, against the restriction on removal of licences within municipalities, and the system of permits issued to Indians, presented to the House on 6th March, 1911, be referred to the Government for consideration.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the petition from H. Kroomer and 43 others, praying for the construction of a goods shed siding at Denver, Johannesburg, or for other relief, presented to the House on the 21st February, 1911, be referred to the Government for consideration.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

in the absence of Mr. Neser (Potchefstroom), moved that the petition from M. Bernstein and 212 other residents of Lake Chrissie (Transvaal), praying for extension of the railway line from Breyten, or for other relief, presented to the House on the 9th February, 1911, be referred to the Government for consideration.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the petitions from L. E. L. Mussman and 20 others, and from G. F. C. Faustman and 390 others, inhabitants of the Ward Schweizer-Reineke, district Bloemhof, praying for the construction of a railway line from Zoutpan, on the Welverdiend-Lichtenburg line, via Schweizer-Reineke, to the Cape-Vryburg line, or for other relief, presented to the House on the 13th February, 1911, be referred to the Government for consideration.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

moved for a return of all railway accidents (including derailments) which have occurred on the South African Railways between the 31st May, 1910, and the 31st January, 1911; the return to show in each case whether a departmental or other inquiry has been held, and the names of the members of any such Board of Inquiry, the amount of damage done to rolling-stock, the number of lives lost or persons injured, and the probable cause of the accident. He said that he would like to ask the Minister of Railways whether the return he was asking for would entail very serious expense? If so, he would not press the motion, but confine the return to major accidents.

seconded.

Showing all accidents to trains (including derailments), involving loss of life, injury to persons, or damage to rolling-stock to the extent of £10 and over, which have occurred on the South African Railways between the 31st May, 1910, and 31st January, 1911, showing in each case: Whether a departmental or other inquiry was held; the names of the members of any such Board of Inquiry; the amount of damage done to rolling-stock; the number of lives lost or persons injured; and the probable cause of the accident.

moved that the petition of Harold David Bernberg and 300 others, praying for the repeal of existing legislation relating to trading on mining ground, presented to the House on the 14th February, 1911, be referred to the Government for consideration.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to

moved that the petitions from T. Fleming and 27 others, presented to the House on the 14th February, 1911, and from C. W. Roberts and 49 others, presented to the House on the 6th instant, praying for the construction of the Elandskop-Loteni Railway, or for other relief, be referred to the Government for consideration.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that all papers connected with the grant of a gratuity to the widow of the late Constable Burton, Transvaal Police, Johannesburg district, who was killed while on duty on July 7, 1910, be laid on the table of the House.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the petition from Julia Solly and 2,368 other women, praying that the age of consent be raised to 16 years, presented to the House on November 28, 1910, be referred to the Government for inquiry and report.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

asked if the Minister could explain the difference in the expenses of the Master’s Office in the Cape and the Transvaal? In the former were 29 clerks, the amount was £7,558, and in the latter, with 55 clerks, it was £11,524.

said he did not think that at the moment he could satisfy the hon. member as to why the expenses were so much higher in the Transvaal. Salaries in the Transvaal had, of course, always been a good deal higher than anywhere else in the Union. It must not be forgotten that, for instance, the Master in the Transvaal was paid more than the Masters in other parts of the Union.

drew attention to the fact that the Master of the Supreme Court in the Transvaal not only received £1,200 per annum, as against £800 paid to the Master of the Supreme Court in the Cape Province, but he received £150 as Commissioner of Protocols, and £400 as a member of the Land Bank Board. He considered that that was scandalous.

said that the amounts were fixed before Union, and he did not think that they were entitled to interfere, although he admitted that extra sums of other services should not be allowed. He was understood to add that it would not be allowed in future.

asked if the Minister proposed to make any change between now and the next session, in regard to the duties of the Masters in the various Provinces.

replied that there would be no radical change.

said that what the public could not understand was why heads should always have an assistant, like the Master and Assistant-Master. In the Cape there was not an Assistant-Master. There were merely chief clerks. He objected to this telescopic growth of the number of highly-paid chief officials.

said that he favoured doing away with these assistant heads where possible, as they were practically second chiefs of a department, but in this case the Assistant-Master had certain specific duties to perform in regard to the administration of estates. The Estate Bill made provision for the abolition of the post complained of.

The vote was agreed to.

moved: On page 145, under sub-head “G,” in the last item, to omit “removal,” and to substitute “renewal.”

said that the pay of the police in the different Provinces was practically what it was last year. Under the Police Bill, which was before the House, it was proposed to put the pay more or less on the same footing. He wanted to know if; it was proposed to adopt the system brought up under the Police Bill?

drew attention to the fearful way in which vehicular traffic was regulated in Cape Town and suburbs. He had had experience of all the towns in this country, in England, and in other parts of the world, and he confidently asserted that nowhere was the vehicular traffic so disgracefully regulated as it was in Cape Town.

said that some time ago he asked why the parties concerned in certain companies which he alleged had been selling “farming” or “live-stock” bonds in the Cape Province, without complying with the provisions of the Insurance and Loan Companies’ Act of 1908 (Cape), had not been prosecuted under section 5 of the Act. The Minister then replied that as regarded the alleged operations of the Union Mutual Live-stock Society, Ltd., and the South African Co-operative Live-stock Company, Ltd., investigations were being made. He (Mr. Jagger) wanted to know what had happened since he put the question.

said that there was need for provision to be made for the more adequate police supervision of the Peninsula. He also spoke upon the desirability of providing better barrack accommodation for the members of the force. He mentioned one building where ten policemen were housed. These men contributed together £180 a year for this accommodation in a building which, if it were hired, could be got at £48 a year. He submitted that if the department hired the building the most they could do was to deduct sufficient from the men’s pay to cover the rental. Mr. Struben also severely criticised the sanitary condition of some of these places.

referred to the regrading of some of the members of the Cape Mounted Police during the retrenchment of 1908, and the reduction of rank and pay that they had suffered. He hoped that the Minister would look into the cases with a view of redressing any instances of real hardship.

asked the Minister if he intended to select a member of the Cape Police to join the Coronation contingent?

asked the Minister for information as to any changes that were contemplated in regard to the pay of the Natal Police. He also asked if it was intended to continue the system of promoting men from the ranks to be commissioned officers?

said that in the Cape with 2,513 police the cost was £359,000, while in Natal the police numbered 2,013 and the cost was about one-half. He would like to know the reason of the disparity of the cost.

advocated the appointment of bilingual police officials for his constituency. The town police should receive more pay, because they had to provide their own horses, etc.

referred to the question of making local allowances to those of the police and other branches of the service who were far away from civilisation, and were mulcted in heavy charges for transport of the necessaries of life. These people were penalised in every way, and their position deserved consideration. He also thought that detectives should be told off for service in stock-farming districts, so as to check thefts. That policy had proved beneficial in Natal, but since it had been discontinued stock thefts had been on the increase.

said the number of stock thefts in the Free State had considerably increased, owing to the reduction of the police force.

spoke of the large number of stock thefts in the Eastern districts, and urged that detectives should be employed there to put a stop to the practice.

said that there was a good deal of agitation among the members of the Natal Police regarding rumoured changes in their pay. He hoped the Minister would be able to reassure them on this point, and also in regard to the Police Superannuation Fund, in regard to which it was feared that there was about to be some alteration. With regard to the uniform of the Natal Police, the present uniform gave great satisfaction, and the men hoped there would be no change in this respect.

said that the police in the Prieska district were responsible for their own horses. That was a good thing in its way, because it tended to make a man careful of his horse; but, unfortunately, fodder was very expensive, and he thought this matter should be taken into consideration.

asked if so many native policemen were necessary in the Transvaal? He thought the pay of native drivers—£4 10s. to £7 a month was too much, considering what other labourers were paid. It merely had the effect of making it more difficult for farmers to obtain labour.

referred to the need of better accommodation for the police at Johannesburg, particularly at Von Brandis and Germiston. Continuing, he said illicit liquor selling was at the bottom of all crime, but there were only five liquor detectives for the whole of the Rand. If an energetic policy were followed, illicit liquor selling could be stopped, and crime reduced. Some of the large employers of labour, tired of approaching Government on the subject, had employed men of their own to aid in the suppression of the traffic, which fortunately was on the decrease.

complained that owing to the small number of police in the country districts, farmers, when their stock was stolen, had to travel long distances to the nearest towns to report the matter.

advocated more liberal police wages in his, constituency, because it was necessary to maintain the status of the force.

asked the reason of the increase from £6,269 to £16,800 in the vote for rations to natives and prisoners, and from £7,391 to £15,862 for detective services. Did the Minister of Justice intend to deal with the question of local contributions towards purely local detective services, the cost of which was rising?

Business was suspended at 6 p.m.

moved that progress be reported, and leave asked to sit again.

declared that the “Noes” had it.

A division was called for, but was withdrawn, General Hertzog at this stage having entered.

said he wished to draw the attention of the Minister to the compensation which was paid to the relatives of members of the police force who had the misfortune to be killed in the execution of their duties. In his opinion the Government ought to be a model employer of labour in the country. He could not understand the principle upon which the Government regulated the compensation paid to the relatives of policemen who were killed. The policy adopted by Government in compensating members of its own service was different to the policy which other employers were compelled by law to follow. He mentioned the fact that a police officer named Burton was killed in the Transvaal whilst in the execution of his duty. That officer had seven years’ service in the South African Constabulary and two years’ service in the Transvaal police force, and under the provisions of the Transvaal Public Service Act all the compensation that could be paid was £51. That was all that was paid to [Burton’s widow and three children. (Cries of “Shame.”) When the Government framed regulations in regard to the payment of compensation to tine ordinary employee who had the misfortune to be injured or killed, it made no distinction as to length of service. If an employee in a mine or factory was injured during his first shift the compensation paid was exactly the same as was paid to the employee who had been working for many years. In the case of the public service in the Transvaal, however, compensation was regulated by the length of service. Surely that was a scandalous state of affairs for a wealthy country like this. He hoped that the Minister would give an assurance that the same principle which was adopted in the ordinary compensation cases would be followed in the case of the service, and that justice would be done in the case he had mentioned.

said he thought there was necessity for having a proper basis of compensation in regard to the service. He mentioned the case of Constable Bishop, who had lost his eyesight by being struck by a native at Krugersdorp, and who only received £29 9s. 6d. When he (Mr. Sampson) made representations he was informed inter alia that Bishop had the full control of his limbs. (Laughter.)

said he hoped that some provision would be made in the Police Bill for the payment of compensation on the same basis as was adopted in the Workman’s Compensation Act.

asked the Minister for particulars with regard to the item 391, European privates in the Cape Mounted Police, at 5s. and 9s. per day. He asked if it was understood whether these men had to find their own horses and so forth, or whether they had free quarters?

referred to what General T. Smuts had drawn attention to during the afternoon—the employment of so large a number of native constables. The hon. member objected to this “black army” being drilled.

advocated the re-establishment of a police post at Wonderfontein.

advocated increased pay for the police. They could not move an increase, but they might be able to move the Minister.

Remove him, you mean. (Laughter.)

No; I don’t wish to remove the Minister at present. Continuing, he referred to the difficult conditions under which the police worked, and contended that the rate of pay to the police was entirely inadequate. The police should receive—the lowest grade—at least 15s. per day, especially when they remembered that the constable had to pay for his own uniform, his own boots, his own helmet, his own everything. That was the case in the Transvaal. He also thought the Government should provide a more adequate pay for policemen who were incapacitated. He knew of a policeman who had lost his eyesight, and who had been given the miserable sum of £29. There was a case also of a constable who had been thrown from his horse and broken his arm. He could do no work, and was being paid a pension of 1s. 11d. per day. Proceeding, the hon. member said that the police in the Cape were anxious as to their pension rights under the new Bill. He hoped the Bill would be amended so as to safeguard the rights of the men. He trusted also the Minister would lay the regulations made under the Bill on the table before the House was asked to pass the Bill after it came from the Select Committee, and that the police would be given an opportunity of considering and discussing the regulations. With reference to coloured constables, it would be noticed that there was provision in the Estimates for 157 coloured constables employed in the Cape, and that of this number 94 were receiving from £60 to £90 per annum. Among the European constables 122 were receiving similar amounts. He did not say anything as to whether it was enough or mot, but he contended that the positions occupied by the coloured constables should be left open to white men, and he hoped that would be borne in mind by the Minister when making these appointments.

hoped that greater measures would be taken to check the illicit liquor traffic on the Witwatersrand. If the police force there were strengthened there would be a greater chance of suppressing this traffic, which led to the demoralisation of the coloured people. If they were to cope with the danger there must be a greater body of police. In regard to the compensation paid to police officers who were killed in the execution of their duty, he thought it was a wrong principle that the amount of compensation should depend upon the length of time a victim had been in the force. He hoped provision would be made whereby the principle of the Workman’s Compensation Act would be applied to such cases. He would like to know whether it was intended in the regulations under the Police Bill to provide that the police should be supplied with, uniforms, or whether they would be required to provide their own uniforms, as was now the case in the Transvaal. In the latter event, he contended that there should be provision that constables should be compensated for damage sustained to their uniforms in the execution of their duty.

asked if the Minister intended to take any action with regard to the representations made to him some time ago as to the need for increased police supervision on the Diamond-fields?

complained of the inadequacy of the police force in Graaff-Reinet district, where stock-thieving was on the increase.

declared it was surprising to find creditable, honest policemen receiving such inadequate wages as they were paid. He went on to refer to the admirable work done by the detective who conducted the investigations in the Salt River murder case, which he hoped would be made a note of by the Minister. He also urged the need for improving certain police quarters.

said that if the Cape Police were placed under the Workman’s Compensation Act, they would be worse off than they were under the Cape Police Act of 1882, which provided fairly— almost liberally—for them. He suggested that the Minister might consider the desirability of adopting on the Witwatersrand the principle in vogue on the Diamond-fields, where the mining companies paid a tax towards the upkeep of the detective establishment. Something like £30,000 was contributed by means of that tax by the mining companies.

said he did not think Mr. Currey, when he advocated the extension of this system to the Witwatersrand, realised the difference there was between the necessities in regard to the discovery of stolen diamonds and in regard to the discovery of stolen gold or liquor. The point was, what was the best method of reducing the illicit traffic that went on in the mining centres in gold and diamonds and liquor? In regard to the illicit liquor traffic, the hon. member referred to the recommendation of the Transvaal Liquor Commission of 1909. The question of the detectives was raised on the last Estimates, and they were told that the detective force was to be increased, but the only increase was an addition of 29 constables. Had that increase been made in consequence of the report of the Commission, or was it due to increased population? If they attempted to police inside the compounds, it would only Head to divided control with its attendant evils.

said he could not understand the attitude taken up by Mr. Chaplin. When were they going to stop throwing all these burdens On the taxpayer of the country? In the country, where the hon. member and himself came from, it was a distinct principle that the policing of a place was a matter for the locality concerned. It was so in the Cape until recently. It was Sir Gordon Sprigg, in the plenitude of his money, who took the maintenance of the police away from the towns, and threw the whole burden on the general taxpayer. He (Mr. Merriman) protested against it at the time, but Sir Gordon had a majority and plenty of money. The sooner they got back to the right principle the better—that was that it was Government’s duty to provide certain police, and if any locality wanted more, it paid for them. (Cheers.) The hon. member (Mr. Chaplin) took rather superior ground on Saturday when they were discussing the impounding of natives. The only way things would improve on the Rand would be by having more police. But who brought the natives there, and allowed them to wander about? (Ministerial cheers.) The people who conducted the industry of which his hon. friend was a respected chief. It was only a good old Anglo-Saxon principle that a place should look after its own government. Why should a gigantic, wealthy industry cast on the taxpayers the burden of looking after the way the companies’ business was conducted in the way of crime? (Ministerial cheers.)

said Mr. Merriman overstated a case the other day, and did an enormous amount of damage. He was doing the same that evening. There should be total prohibition of the sale of liquor to natives. (Cheers.) Did Mr. Merriman apply his principle to Victoria West and other country districts? (Cheers.)

Why not?

You people won’t pay increased taxation. Continuing, Colonel Crewe observed that Mr. Merriman had stated that the cost of the police should be borne by the taxpayers concerned. Well, the mines were very big taxpayers. (Hear, hear.) It was, he proceeded, perfectly useless to compound the natives on the mines, and to leave the others free to do as they pleased in the townships where the circumstances occurred. The policing of the compounds was paid for by the companies. Illicit liquor was made in the compounds, and that should be put a stop to. Illicit liquor selling on the Rand would not be stopped until they could get back to the conditions that obtained under Crown Colony Government.

The mines should keep their own servants in order.

But they do.

Then why are they crying for more police?

said it was not their servants that they required extra police for. On the whole, the white and Kafir population connected with the mines were as orderly as any, and these did not require any augmented police force. The fact, was, however, that in the Wit waters rand there was something to get, and it attracted a great many undesirable persons, who did not find any sphere for their activities in a place like Victoria West. (Laughter.) Surely they were not going to ask the gold mining industry to provide a special police force for this class of persons. The major portion of the taxation of this country was paid by the gold mining industry, and if they were so ask the industry to pay the cost of this special police, that would be going a little too far. His right hon. friend had said that the Witwatersrand was a university of crime, but he (Mr. Phillips) did not think it was any more a university of crime than any other place. (Hear, hear.) On the whole, he believed the population on the Rand was as high-minded as any part of South Africa. If some hon. members had not been there they ought to take an early opportunity of doing so, and seeing the conditions that prevailed there. They would find there as little crime as anywhere, and they would find a great deal that would interest them in scientific demonstrations and lectures, and plenty of entertainment of various kinds. They would find also that their community was as respectable as any community in England. Instead of being a community of gamblers and general sinners, they would find, on the whole, they were just as straitlaced as other people. The right hon. gentleman seemed only too glad to dwell upon sores, leaving aside the fact that the great majority on the Rand were as high-minded as any in the world. (Cheers.)

asked whether the Minister of Justice could not see that some provision for a police station was made between Parys and Viljoensdrift, owing to the many thefts and the unseemly conduct of large numbers of natives working in coal mines, in view of the great distance the present police station was away?

complained that he got tired of the speeches of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Merriman). He had heard him say that mine managers were quite regardless of human life, principally coloured life; in fact, that they Were practically murderers. The compounds throughout the Transvaal were generally well managed. There was not a single policeman in the compounds that was not paid by the mines. He was not going to say anything to inform the right hon. gentleman’s mind, he was afraid he was too old to learn. (Laughter.) He (Mr. Rockey) had seen more drunkenness in Cape Town than ever he had seen in Johannesburg. “Go to your racecourses here,” continued the hon. member, “and go to your racecourses there, and go home and see the difference.” (Laughter.) He was jealous of their Johannesburg and the Transvaal, and he could not understand why a man could get up and traduce them. He had come down here with a very real regard for the intellectual attainments of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Merriman). He was told that he would break them to pieces like a potter’s vessel, but the only thing that was shattered was his own reputation. (Laughter.)

said he would like to see an increase in the police supervision upon the Rand for the purpose of keeping intoxicating liquor away from the natives. He did not think, however, that this desire of the mineowners was from any wish to save the immortal soul of the coloured labourer, but to see that he came to work on Monday morning. The method of administering the laws in the Transvaal was absolutely pernicious and demoralising to the natives themselves. He agreed with Mr. Merriman that those who received certain services from the State should pay for them, outside of the ordinary general services of the community. He believed, in regard to defence, that the people who should pay most for it were the people who owned most property.

said that he agreed with Mr. Merriman as to what he had said about placing the police in the hands of urban and rural areas. The constituency he represented had demanded from the Crown Colony and the Orange Free State Government that they should have their own police, but that request had been refused. Of course, if they had their own police they should also get the fines. Speaking of the illicit liquor traffic, the hon. member said that it was the white man, not the native, who dealt in it; and it was the white people who sold liquor to the natives, which was practically poison. He thought that Mr. Merriman’s proposal was a sound one; but it should not apply to the Witwatersrand only, but to rural, as well as urban, areas.

said that in regard to stock thefts, it would pay the Government better to have a number of private detectives to discover the thieves than have a large and expensive body of police, who chiefly distinguished themselves in work such as conveying prisoners to gaol! He would like to see that a circular was issued by the Department of the Minister of Justice drawing the attention of the police to the law preventing the sale of dagga.

endorsed what Dr. Hewat had said about the police accommodation at Woodstock. If the Minister would go round and see the lockups at the police stations of the suburbs of the Cape Peninsula on Saturday nights, he would, he said, see a state of things which would shock him. It was a disgrace to the Cape Peninsula, and a disgrace to any country. Some years ago it had been proposed that a change should be brought about, but since then nothing had been done. The hon. member also spoke strongly on the verminous condition of many of the police stations and, barracks, and considered that something should at once be done. In conclusion, he paid a need of praise to the work of the Woodstock detective who had in such a capable way and with such success investigated a recent murder case. He hoped the officer in question would be duly rewarded, so that it would be an encouragement to others to emulate his good example. (Hear, hear.)

also alluded to the shocking condition of the police cells, especially on Saturday night, in Cape Town. He advised the Minister to go and see for himself.

in reply said that he could assure Mr. Searle and Mr. Long that he required a great deal of money to deal with the matters of lock-ups referred to by them, and he could not, he need hardly say, get the new lock-ups made at Tokai. A very large sum of money would be required if they wanted new lock-ups or new buildings for the police in the Union. As to the question of police pay, raised by the hon. member for Bloemfontein, that was a question which could not possibly be dealt with by the Government until a general has is had been decided upon for the whole Union. It would be dealt with when the Police Bill and regulations came before the House. In the meantime, he would ask members to leave aside all questions concerning police pay and matters of that kind. In regard to the question of certain bonds and prosecutions, all prosecutions were by the South Africa Act entrusted to the Attorneys-General of the several Provinces. He would bring this matter to the attention of the Attorney-General of the Cape. In regard to the regulation of traffic in the Cape Peninsula, he understood it was mostly those who were in possession of motor-cars who found the obstacles that the hon. member for Denver complained of. This was a question which he would bring to the notice of the Commissioner. In regard to the matter raised by the hon. member for Newlands as to the police barracks, this question could only be settled after the Commissioner had gone through the whole Union. In regard to the reduction of the grade of police officers during the retrenchment in the Cape, he had brought this matter to the notice of the Commissioner. In one case steps had been taken to restore the officer to his former grade, and as opportunities arose, these men would undoubtedly have justice done to them. As to the Coronation contingent, one officer would be selected from the Cape section to accompany the contingent. An officer would be selected from the other sections. In reference to contemplated changes in the Natal Police, he could only say that the change in pay contemplated, so far as the Natal Police were concerned, would open to the police more favourable prospects than they had under the present system. (Hear, hear.) The Cape Police would also be considerably better. As to the question of promotion from the ranks, that was a rule adopted in the regulations which he intended to lay on the table of the House when the Bill was under consideration. As to the disparity in the cost of police between the Cape and Natal, the reason was that the proportion of white police was in the Cape double what it was in Natal, and that, while Natal had something like 1,200 native police, the Cape had only something like 300. In regard to the point raised by the hon. member for Beaufort West, he thought everybody in that House felt that the policemen should know as much of the two languages as was required of them according to the locality in which they were stationed. In a place like Port Elizabeth, which was largely English, as he understood, he would not require that a policeman should know Dutch, but a policeman going on the Karoo, for instance, should certainly know Dutch. The question was, of course, one in regard to which they could not lay down a general rule. They must see in each case what was reasonably demanded for the people. As to the question of any special allowance for policemen in outlying places, this question had had his consideration, and he could inform the hon. member for Zululand that local allowances would be made. With reference to the measures regarding the suppression of stock thefts in Natal, he might inform the committee that no changes had taken place in the provision made in that connection. In regard to the complaints concerning cattle thefts in the country districts, provision was to be made for better police protection, but he must say that to a very great extent the present state of affairs in that respect was due to the carelessness of the farmers themselves. For example, out of certain fourteen instances in which the theft of sheep had been reported, in no fewer than eleven cases the sheep were found just outside the boundaries of the tarms from which they had strayed. In reply to other points which had been raised, he wished to point out that no man could be taken into the police force unless he was of exemplary conduct, and this would be aimed at in the new Police Bill. In regard to the training of native policemen, hon. members should understand that this training and drilling were essential to the good discipline of the force. As to the position of the Natal police in regard to their pay and superannuation allowance, he thought that under the new Police Bill, the Natal police would be better off than before. In this Bill, the rights of the police with reference to gratuities and pensions were strictly maintained, and when they went over into the new force, their past service would be counted, and all their rights would be safeguarded. He might say that the Natal uniform had, in practically every particular, been adopted for the Union police. The hon. member for Georgetown had raised the question of police accommodation at Von Brandis and Germiston. It would be advisable to have proper barracks erected, but there were other places in outside districts which were very badly off in this respect. As to illicit liquor selling, as far as possible he had tried to meet the demands on the police, and the increase of 29 were all liquor detectives. The increases referred to by Mr. Currey were not really so large as they appeared, a change having been made in the management of the votes.

I’m here, sir. (Laughter.)

said that the question of paying an extra shilling to 10,000 was a big one. Pension rights would be maintained. The hon. member for Fordsburg (Mr. Duncan) had raised the question of uniform, but the hon. member was not correctly informed, for when a police constable had his uniform ruined during the execution of his duty, it was replaced at Government expense.

drew attention to the condition of the police lock-ups in Cape Town, and hoped that these would be remedied. Another matter he desired to refer to was the case of officers who had lost their seniority in the Cape Police Force through no fault of their own. It was surely only justice to give them back, not only the rank they formerly held, but their seniority as well.

said he would look into the matter of the police lock-ups as soon as possible. In regard to those police officers who had been reduced, he would ask the Commissioner to look into the matter and see what could be done.

referred to a number of gentlemen who were formerly inspectors, that was, commissioned officers in the Cape Police, but who were to-day non-commissioned officers. They had no one to speak for them in the House, and they could not speak for themselves. Someone ought to speak for these men, and try to induce the House to render justice to them. He would have much preferred that the Minister should deal with this matter, rather than the Commissioner. The Commissioner said that the men’s cases would be considered in the ordinary way, but he would like to point out that the Commissioner’s salary is £1,500, and these men could not wait so long as he could. Instead of submitting this to the Commissioner of Police, he hoped the Minister would turn the matter over in his own mind, and see what could be done. So as to get the opinion of the House upon the matter, he would move to reduce the Commissioner’s salary by £1.

said it was immaterial to him whether a man was an inspector, or a sub-inspector, or whatever was his rank, if they had been reduced in the matter of wages they should be reinstated in their rank and emoluments. The point made by Colonel Crewe was an excellent one, and the justice of it could not be questioned for one moment. These men were suffering by comparison with the other Provinces; and he said that, as a Transvaaler, who represented a Transvaal constituency, he hoped that these men would be immediately reinstated, and that the men would also get full opportunity of considering the regulations, so that they could conscientiously say whether they would or would not serve under them.

asked for details as to the item, “Topnaar Captain, £6.” It seemed small pay for a captain, and he did not know what it meant.

replying to Colonel Harris, said that he must act through the Commissioner of Police, who must report to him. As to Mr. Madeley, the regulations would be laid upon the table of the House. The hon. member scemed to be in a great hurry.

What about the Topnaar captain? (Laughter.)

did not reply.

said that the position of the police would be very materially improved under the new Police Bill and these regulations. If that Bill could not be passed, owing to there being too much discussion, the position of the police would suffer.

said that he would have divided the committee on the matter of the Commissioner’s salary, but he knew that many hon. members would troop in, see what side the Minister sat on, and, not knowing what the discussion had been, vote accordingly. (Ministerial “Oh’s.”)

said that, from what he had seen in the committee, he was struck with the fair-mindedness of the Chief Commissioner, and he thought the hon. member for Beaconsfield could safely leave these cases in the hands of the Chief Commissioner.

said that he must press the Minister for a reply to his question. All he asked was that the Minister should give the members of the police force an opportunity of considering these regulations before they decided whether they should take service under them.

said that he would like to know who the Topnaar captain was?

said that all he knew was that this was an official.

said that this man was the chief of a small clan at Walfish Bay.

urged that the Minister should give a (reply to his hon. friend (Mr. Madeley). He also supported the plea put forward by the hon. member for Beaconsfield (Colonel Harris) on behalf of the police officers who had suffered from the retrenchment in the Cape.

The amendment moved by the Minister of Justice was agreed to.

The vote was agreed to.

moved that the vote be taken in groups.

Agreed to.

said he wished to move some amendments which simply increased some sub-votes at the expense of others, to the extent of £8,000. He moved: In sub-head C 6: That the amount under item “Machinery, Tools, etc.,” be increased by £3,600; that the amount under item “Material for Industries” be increased by £4,000; that the amount under item “Material for Erection of Buildings” be increased by £400. and in sub-head C 2: That the amount under item “Rations” be decreased by £7,000; that the amount under item “Fuel” be decreased by £1,000.

Agreed to.

asked whether there had been a reduction in the salaries of the chaplains?

said that there were six chaplains in Cape Town who had received salaries which he thought were higher than they should be; but he thought it would be unreasonable to reduce the salaries forthwith, seeing that these gentlemen had so many years’ service. The salaries would remain as they were until next year.

The vote was agreed to, amid cheers.

Before we proceed to the next vote, I hope my hon. friend will now move to report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

If it will facilitate business, I am quite agreeable.

Progress was reported, and leave granted to sit again tomorrow.