from G. J. Coetzee, carpenter, Salt River Railway Works.

from residents of Elliot, Tembuland, praying that, owing to different scab laws, the boundary line be removed to the Southeast border of the Elliot district.

from residents of Wakkerstroom, for abolition of office of District Commandant of Police.

from W. J. Willis, Customs Department, Table Bay Harbour Board.

brought up the second report of the Select Committee on Pensions. Grants and Gratuities, as follows:

Second report of the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants and Gratuities:

Your committee recommend the award to A. Winder, of £2 per month for two years: to F. Wadman, a pension of £91 4s. 3d. per annum; to Francina E. S. Commaille, widow of J. L. C. Commaille, of £21 19s. 8d.; to Hilda M. H. Newman, widow of T. H. Newman, of a gratuity of £40: to Lucy Spears, widow of J. Spears, of a gratuity of £12; to A. Saunders, pension of £1 10s. per month; to W. Wippenaar, pension of £1 10s. per month; to Agnes M. Joubert, widow of J. A. Joubert, a gratuity of £100; to Dr. G. Turner, late Medical Officer of Health (Transvaal), a gratuity of £1,000; that the service of F. T. Morrison, from 1st July, 1894, to 31st December, 1899, be reckoned for good service allowance and pension purposes; that the break in the service of Anna Botma be condoned; that the break in the service of C. G. A. Langford be condoned; that Josephine Wagner be allowed to contribute to the Pension Fund; that B. P. Wall be treated as if on the fixed establishment.

They are unable to recommend that the prayers of other petitions be entertained.

Consideration of the report in committee was set down for Monday.

in moving the second reading, said that the measure was a very important one. To a very large extent, in fact, almost entirely, it re-enacted what, was already the law in the Union. That, was to say, the laws in different parts of the Union. By this Bill it was proposed to codify the existing laws, and to bring about uniformity as far as possible. He did not think it was necessary for him to go through all the provisions of the Bill. He would confine himself to pointing out several of the principal differences between the laws as they were at present and the law which was proposed. He had had three Bills drafted, one dealing with discipline, one with organisation, and one with superannuation, but he thought it would facilitate business and avoid three second readings if he put the three into one. This he had done. The first chapter dealt with the organisation of matters connected with the harbours and railways. It dealt, with such things as appointments, promotions, reductions in men’s salaries, and dismissals. That was practically the same law as existed in the Union to-day with some exceptions. The most material exception would be found in section 7. Under that section powers were now taken to dismiss employees for inefficiency. They had those powers on the Transvaal, and it was proposed, of course with safeguards which he hoped would be sufficient to prevent a miscarriage of justice, to extend them all over the Union. As to the part of the Bill relating to discipline, that remained very much as it was before. There was, however, a very important provision in this part of the Bill, which was also, copied from the Central South African Railway laws, and that was clause 17. In the Transvaal (the Central South African. Railways) provision was made for a Board consisting of impartial persons, to make inquiries, where there, was a difference between the Administration and any number of railway employees, and subsequently the majority and the minority reports of that Board were published in the “Gazette.” That was done with a view to settling disputes which otherwise might lead to serious consequences. Well, that seemed to be a very good provision so far as it went, and he therefore proposed to make it applicable all over the Union in relation to any disputes which might, arise. In regard to the chapter of the Bill dealing with superannuation, he might say that he had followed largely what was done in the Transvaal in 1908, and which was followed by the Cape and Natal in the two following years. The Transvaal law was based very much on the report of Mr. King, who was president of the Society of Actuaries in Great Britain, and who came out here to advise the Central South African Railways administration in this connection, and he (Mr. Sauer) was advised that the scheme was a satisfactory one. There were some minor differences in the Cape law, perhaps tending a little more towards liberality.

Bankruptcy.

No; not bankruptcy. You may say that of our Pension Fund, but not of our Superannuation Fund. Substantially, he continued, the law in this respect in the Cape was the same as in the Transvaal. Well, the Superannuation Fund Act in the Cape had proved of great advantage. In the Cape railway men were, after ten years’ service, placed, ipso, facto, on the fixed establishment and the Pension Fund, and there were a large number of persons who had retired from the Cape railway service who were drawing pensions from the Cape Government. That was an unsatisfactory arrangement because in many cases it was very difficult indeed to get rid of a man who was once on the Act, and would be able to get refunds where they would not get them, under the Pension Acts. The proposal at present was to amalgamate all the funds, and have one applicable to the whole Union. Provision was made also to raise or lower the contributions of the employees, according to the needs of the fund. In, that way they would keep the fund perfectly solvent. Another advantage would be that all employees would be compelled to contribute. There were one or two material differences between the Bill now introduced and the existing law. There was, for instance, the constitution of the committee which would manage this fund. At present in the Cape and in the Transvaal, it, was optional for the Government to admit representatives of the contributors on the Boards of Management. Under this Bill it was proposed to make the representation of the contributors compulsory—that, as a matter of right, some of the members of the Board should be sent there by the contributors; The other very important difference was this: Under section 72 of this Bill would be found a very material alteration of the existing law. Under the present law, if a man met with an accident, he must elect whether he would retire on pension or take a gratuity or an annuity, or whether he would recover for the injury he had sustained. Well, by this Bill that was altered so that the one affair had no connection with the other. It seemed very hard that when a man had, served 30 or 40 years, and was about to retire on an annuity, he should meet with a serious accident, and lose a limb or suffer other serious and permanent injury, and should then be no better off than if he had met with no accident at all. It was only right that such a man should be compensated for the injury, and under this Bill provision was made that he should be able to recover damages without it affecting his rights under the Superannuation Act. There were minor alterations in this part of the Bill which would not, he thought, operate harshly against employees. Then there was Chapter IV., relating to pensions. Under the provisions in this chapter a man would not be able to obtain a pension who heretofore had not, that right. All that happened was this: There was a certain number of railway employees to-day who were drawing pensions from the Cape Pension Fund. Now, it, was proposed here that an arrangement should become to between the Government and the Administration that the fund should be made solvent, and that the people drawing pensions, who were attached to the railway or harbour services, should receive their pensions in future out of the railway or harbour funds. There were other portions, but this Bill was very largely technical, and he did not propose at this stage to go into those matters. His object was to obtain an Act which would secure efficiency, and which would secure people’s rights, and see that no man improperly suffered. He should be very glad to get any suggestion or advice, and would consider it. In the circumstances, ‘he thought, it would be a very good thing, after the second reading of this Bill was taken, to move that it be referred to the Railway Committee which was appointed the other day, and that was his intention He believed that such a course would facilitate the passage of the Bill through the House and it would enable him to get it made law before Parliament rose. He thought the committee might examine witnesses, if considered necessary. He begged to move the second reading of the Bill.

asked the Minister to repeat the main points of his speech in Dutch. This request, he said, applied to second reading speeches generally.

said that he rose to ask the Minister whether he could not see his way to postpone this matter for a short time. He understood that the Bill appeared in the “Gazette” on February 20 last, and he was told that the people concerned had really not seen the Bill yet. The Minister, of course, would say that that was their fault. One knew; however, that before a Bill came before the House, though it was published in the “Gazette,” the attention of the public was not brought to bear upon it. What was happening at the present moment, he understood, was that the railway employees—and this Bill vitally affected the interests of 20,000 men—were holding meetings amongst themselves, studying the Bill, coming to resolutions upon it, and communicating with members representing them in that House. It was quite true, as the hon. member said, that if this Bill went to a committee, the various points could be thrashed out there, but he understood that the men felt, as a body, that their position would be worse under this Bill than it was at the present moment. He understood that, from the Gape point of view, the Cape employees would certainly not be improved, and that the Central South African Railway employees considered that they would be in a much worse position than the employees in the Cape service. How far that was so may be cleared up by further investigation; but, as far as it had gone, there was discontent with the Bill at first, glance amongst the people with whom it was intended to deal. This was not merely a consolidating Bill but in very important matters it changed the position of the employees from their present position. He, would ask the Minister whether he could not consider the question of letting the second reading stand over for a week or ten days?

said that he did not see how there could be any objection to taking the second reading. The second reading dealt with the principle of the Bill, and he thought there would be no objection from any member of the House with regard to the principle. He saw no object in delaying the second reading. The Bill had been published, and some tune had elapsed, and people could have—he would not say there would be much time—acquainted themselves with its contents, but what he proposed was a course which would give them an opportunity of laying their views before the Railway Committee. He would undertake that that committee would not for a week or ten days bring un a report, that was, if it went to the Railway Committee immediately, and in the meantime the men, if they liked to appoint anybody or make representations, could do so. The object was to get a fair consideration, and make the matter throughly representative, and he thought the men were far more likely to get what was reasonable at the hands of the committee than they would in that House. He thought that any difficulties they raised were more likely to receive careful and mature consideration from the committee. He would suggest that they should take the second reading, and give the men an opportunity of making their voice heard before the Select Committee.

I understand that the committee would have power to take evidence?

Yes.

referred to the Natal Superannuation Act, and said he hoped that the men of Natal would not be prejudiced by this measure.

asked if the effect of clause 72—relating to compensation—read as the Minister intended it should read?

said he agreed with the right hon. the leader of the Opposition that the different stages of the Bill should not be hurried through. It affected the interests of a considerable body of men, and as it would take them some time to advance their ideas, he thought it would, perhaps, be better to delay the Act, instead of rushing it through this session. He referred to the fact that there was a lot of difference of opinion with regard to the Transvaal Act, which was rushed through. He asked why there was any necessity for discrimination between one class of men and another? He bad tried, but failed, to find a reason in the Act for such discrimination. Then he went on to refer to the discontent that was to be found among the men of the North with regard to the pension fund, and said that whenever they had anything to lose, they were placed on a footing with the men of the Cape or Natal. Then there was the question of payment when readjustment became necessary. The men were afraid they would have to pay more in the future, and he was glad to hear the Minister say that their interests would be protected. He disagreed with misconduct being placed on the same footing as fraud or dishonesty. He pointed out that under the Act the head of a department could sit as judge and jury, and decide whether a man should lose the money be bad, paid to a superannuation fund. The man had no appeal, not even to the General Manager, and he thought that such a system was unjust. With regard to strikes, he thought that there should be the right of inquiry. There was a penalty of £50, or six months’ hard labour, or both. These were very severe penalties indeed, and calculated to stop all strikes on the railway in his opinion. They did not find that there “should” be a Board to deal with disputes, but there “might” be; and it was at the discretion of the Government; and it was purely a permissive matter. Here they did not have a single provision for the men to have a, representative on the Board at all. The men who must form that Board must obviously be men who understood the conditions of the service, and not men whom one simply picked up from the street; consequently there was the grave danger that the Board might be composed of men all in favour of the system then in vogue, and against the system which might have given rise to the dispute. The hon. member also dealt with the provisions for publication in the “Gazette,” and the question of the railway cottages. He thought that the administration might at least give fourteen days’ notice for men to look out for new quarters, because they were often put to great expense in having to move, land they should not be summarily ejected.

said that although the Bill might be referred to a Select Committee, it could not sit for some little time, until the men interested were thoroughly acquainted with the provisions of the Bill. The Minister had said that it was only a consolidation of the various laws in existence in the various Provinces, and that the various railway employees, were thus acquainted with the Bill. On the other hand, the employees of one Province did not know what the laws of the other Provinces were; and he did think that when such a technical Bill was introduced, affecting such a vast number of people, in the service of the Government of the country, more time should be given. Dealing with clauses 15 land 17, the hon. member said, with reference to the question of strikes, that it was only fair and just that such provision should be in the Bill, because the railway service was of such convenience to the general public, and it should not be upset; but when they took away the right of the men to strike, they must be given means to safeguard themselves. In the Transvaal they had not been satisfied with such a, clause, because they considered that it did not go far enough in the protection they (the men) ought to have. Here the position was that if la dispute arose when a large number of men, in the opinion of the administration, were likely to cause serious disorganisation to the working of the railway, the Governor-General-in-Council could appoint a Board of independent persons, who could adjudicate upon that dispute; but the weakness of that was that the men could not have representation on that Board. What they in the Transvaal wanted to see was something similar to the provisions contained (in the Industrial Disputes Bill in the Transvaal, which stated that no employer should have the right to reduce hours or reduce wages without giving notice to the men.; and in the event of dispute, the men could apply to the Government for conciliation. He thought that surely in the case of the railway, where it was a, penal offence to strike, (under clause 17 of the Bill), something in that direction should be moved in when it came to the committee stage; and he hoped that the Minister would consider it, because he believed a great deal of the time of the House would be saved in regard to the asking of questions about railway grievances and different things like that, and that, the men would have some representation on the Board.

said that he cordially welcomed the suggestion made by the hon. member opposite. He did not know whether he had understood the Minister correctly as to what he had said about the Pension Fund. He had understood the Minister to say that if a main had been ten years in the service the automatically came on the Pension Fund.

was understood to reply in the negative.

went on to say that a man who had been ten years in the Cape Service had the right to be on the fixed establishment, but could get on the Pension Fund only in the first month of his service. A great many improvements were needed in the Superannuation Act, but it would be churlish not to recognise the very great improvement made in the present Bill. One was compensation for accidents. He did not see why men should be regarded as temporary servants for so long a time as three years. An effort should be made to get the men on to the Superannuation Fund in one way or another, and to that end the fund should be re-opened, and the men be given a better option than they had before. He did not see why the men who were retrenched should not be treated in the same way as if they had been superannuated. He would like to see that part of the Bill disappear, and he would like to make quite sure that the Minister would give ample opportunity to railway men in different parts of the country to give evidence before the Select Committee. In conclusion, Mr. Fremantle expressed the opinion that the Bill, with some improvements, might go far to avert the danger of industrial unrest in connection with, the railways.

complimented the Minister of Railways on the introduction of the Bill, which he thought was a step in the right direction. The measure contained many advantages. Any employee meeting With, an accident had a claim under the Workman’s Compensation Act, as well as under the Superannuation Act. Any man entering the railway service under the present conditions still retained those advantages and privileges, and it was not the intention of the Bill to take them away. The question of promotion had been dealt with in an excellent manner The Bill also recognised for the first time that, those contributing to the Pension Fund should share in its administration. As to the men retiring, the administration should allow those employees, who so desired, to retire at 55, and claim their superannuation. Distinct hardship had occurred in the case of men who, when they reached 55 years of age, were not able to continue work; but could not resign until they were 60. Then it was very unfair that a man found not guilty of a criminal charge should be retried by the railway administration on the same charge. There were many men in the service who, at the time they joined, did not see so far as they did now, and consequently did not join the old superannuation fund, and he could not see that there would be great difficulties if the superannuation fund were thrown open to those men. He could assure the Minister that not one, but hundreds of men, in the railway service to-day were in a state of anxiety as regarded this Bill. There was anxiety on all sides. The men did not know what their position would be after the passing of this Bill. There were very few men at Salt River who knew anything about the Bill, and he thought it was an injustice to thrust it upon them, without giving them a chance to put their views forward. He hoped the Minister would see his way clear to allow a special committee to be appointed. If it were appointed now it could bring up its report within three or four weeks. He thought that such a committee would save a lot of trouble.

said he desired to say one word in support of the suggestion put forward by the hon. member for Georgetown (Sir G. Farrar), namely, that the railway employees should he brought under the Industrial Disputes Prevention Act which had been passed in the Transvaal, or that in this Bill a clause should be inserted carrying out the purposes of that Act. The Minister, in clause 17 of the Bill had very properly recognised the necessity for some system of Conciliation Boards, but it seemed to him (the speaker) that a better system was to be found in the Industrial Disputes Prevention Act of the Transvaal, passed in 1909. When that Bill was before the Transvaal Parliament he and others proposed that railway employees should come within its scope; but the majority were against them. Personally, he saw no difficulty in bringing them under that Act. If such were done as he hoped it would be—something would have to be done to amend the Act. In order to make it of full force and effect, because the other day in the Transvaal there was a dispute between the Johannesburg Municipality and some of its employees—he would not go into the merits of the case, because be did not know them —and the Act was entirely defied. He supposed that it was found impossible to put the law into force. The point of the dispute was that the tramway employees insisted that a certain inspector should be dismissed, but apparently that dispute did not come under the definition of an industrial dispute within the meaning of the Act. Off course, if that Act were only to be applicable in the case of an employer, and not of full effect and force in the case of an employee, then it was perfectly valueless, and if it were applied to the railway employees that defect would have to be remedied. As a matter of fact it would have to be remedied when it was applied to the rest of the Union. Be agreed with the member for Georgetown (Sir G. Farrar) that if that Act were applicable to railway employees a great many complaints which they were apt to hear a great deal about would be obviated.

said there were one or two points that he wished to touch upon. The first was with regard to existing rights. There was some anxiety among the men with regard to their rights, and he hoped that the committee would pay particular attention to that, and see that men who had enjoyed certain rights had these safeguarded. The other point was in regard to the pension and superannuation funds. He noticed certain provision was made in the Act for payments to be made on certain conditions, but there was nothing stated as to whether these payments were to be paid on actuarial calculations. The Minister knew perfectly well of the trouble that arose in the Cape Colony owing to an unsound Pension Bill having been adopted, and he hoped that attention would be paid to this matter. As to the discipline clause, there was reference to “unbecoming behaviour,” but he thought the Bill should more clearly define the offences included under “unbecoming behaviour.” For instance, a man might not salute his superior officer, and the latter might consider it as “unbecoming behaviour.” Phrases of that sort were very objectionable in an Act of Parliament; however, they might find a way into regulations. He did not agree with the hon. member for Woodstock (Dr. Hewat) that a special committee should be appointed. He considered that the Railway Committee was the best committee to deal with this Bill.

thought that the period of probation provided for was too long; the capacity of a man could be ascertained in a shorter period than three years. He considered that in some cases the age of 55 instead of 60 should be adopted. The men ought to have the opportunity of being represented on any committee formed to consider their grievances; in that way a good deal of dissatisfaction would be done away with.

said he thought the Minister had done well to refer the Bill to the Select Committee on Railways. He did not think there was necessity to appoint a special committee, though he did not agree with the Minister that the Bill mainly consolidated the existing legislation, There were important changes proposed, and there were sections which were capable of different interpretations. He would like to have information from the Minister on section 4 in particular, as to whether the Cape Railway servants employed before January 1, 1909, would be required to obtain a certificate from the General Manager before they were regarded as permanent servants. That was an illustration of what complications there might be in apparently simple sections. Again, according to sub-section 1 of section 6, efficiency was to be the paramount consideration in regard to promotion, and not seniority, except where the seniority was very marked. That might create great discontent. He thought they should omit provision in the Bill to the effect that members of the Cape Railway Service who had had an opportunity of electing to join the late Superannuation Fund of the Cape, and did not so elect, should not be permitted to become members of the Superannuation Fund. There might be cases in which men, during the bad times, when, 5 per cent, was deducted from their pay, could not spare the money to join the fund. At any rate it should toe carefully considered whether these people should not toe given another opportunity. Continuing, the hon. member urged that every branch of the service ought to have a chance of appointing representatives to give evidence before the Select Committee.

said that he welcomed this Bill, because at last the railway men would know how they stood, as far as pensions and matters of that sort were concerned, and after the matter had been thrashed out before the Select Committee, and the men had had an opportunity of expressing their views, he hoped that they would have a law which would remain in force for a long time. The hon. member went on to speak of the unrest which prevailed among the railway men in Natal, and hoped that every facility would be given to the men to place their views before the Select Committee.

replying to the debate, said that he, had nothing to complain of in regard to the manner in which this Bill had been discussed, except that he wished that it had already gone to the committee. (A laugh.) In discussing what he might call the more liberal provisions of the Bill, those matters had been passed over very lightly. He did not complain of that. Those affected were more liberally dealt with by this Bill than they had been before. Whether they would be satisfied, toe did not know. There were two parties to this matter. There were the interests of the State which must be regarded, and also the interests of the men. He was afraid that sometimes the advocacy of the interests of the men loomed so large that all other interests were forgotten. He was surprised to hear what had been said by the member for Durban as to a circular having been issued to men over 60 years old. There had been a circular issued to men both over and under 60, but not on account of age. These were men who were not required, and their places would not be filled. With regard to what the hon. member for Liesbeek had said, he saw that the other day he and his friend held a meeting of the men at Salt River, and he believed they passed resolutions. Several of the statements made there were erroneous. Still, they must have had the Bill. He could not understand how they could say that they wanted more time. He hoped the hon. member (Mr. Long) was not one of those who first hanged and took evidence afterwards. (Laughter.) He thought this cry about people not having an opportunity of knowing what was going on was treating them with some disrespect. He was not only willing, but he was anxious, to give reasonable opportunities, even to facilitate the coming of witnesses—responsible people who represented those who were very much affected by the Bill—even to facilitate a certain number coming to this Select Committee to state their views. (Hear, hear.) But he said they should not ask him, because these people had votes, and because they had people in that House interested in their cause, to unduly delay legislation. In regard to what the hon. member (Mr. Long) had said in reference to clause 4, he would point out that no person who had been on permanent employ would in any way be affected by this Bill. If it were necessary to make that more clear, he was quite willing to do so.

The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a second time.

moved that the Bill be referred to the Select Committee on Railways and Harbours for consideration and report.

seconded.

This was agreed to.

said he agreed with the Minister of the Interior that we should have a small permanent force, ready to act in case of emergency. That force should be well armed and mounted, and well acquainted with the various districts, so that it could move at short notice, and strike hard when required. The trouble was not with the first, but with the second line of defence. The Australian and Swiss systems seemed to be very similar to that of the Natal Militia. The only test of a defence force was actual warfare, and through that test the various South African forces had emerged with credit, though it was apparent that there was a lack of training on the part of the officers. That could be got over by a training college. A suitable defence force of Volunteers and Militia could, the thought, be obtained at a small cost. At present they cost only £111,000, or only £24 per man per annum. As to the Cadets, it was absolutely essential that Government should encourage them, and also extend the system. The training obtained by the Cadets would lead to an improvement in the general physique of the nation. Over 20,000 Cadets were being trained at a cost of but £19,000. He was pleased to learn that Government intended to take the burden of coast defence off the Imperial Government, and he was sorry that it was not proposed to increase the contribution to the British Navy. (Cheers.) The hon. member then paid a tribute to the Natal Volunteers, who had done magnificent service, and he was sorry that anyone could have said a word against men who had fought so well.

who was received with cheers, said that he had been, unlike other hon. members who had spoken, somewhat disappointed at the speech of the Minister (General Smuts), because it was a bald outline, and nothing more or less than a skeleton of a defence system: and he had said that it should not be taken as the policy of the Government. The Minister had not said exactly what would take the place of he Volunteers; and there was nothing which interfered more with recruiting than the statement that a force would cease to exist before a certain time had passed; and he hoped that the Minister would give them an assurance that the Volunteers, as they are at present, would not lose his sympathy and support. Dealing with the two main points made by the Minister in his speech, he said that he entirely agreed, but there was a third point, which he would like to see adopted, and that was that there should be provision made for an, Intelligence Department; because if intelligence was important in war it was even more important in peace. There was an Intelligence/Department of the War Office with which the Intelligence Departments of any of the colonies could be easily affiliated. Proceeding, be said that he had been a little dismayed to hear the Minister say that it might be possible to add a Military College to the Agricultural College; for it was almost impossible to imagine that a man would go to an Agricultural College to learn military duties; and if they had a Military College, the first thing they had to inculcate in their students must be military discipline. He hoped that the Minister, when he came to found that College, as he hoped he speedily would, would found a thorough Military College suited to the needs of the country. As to what had been said about setting up a permanent force, he was afraid that what would happen was what had happened in Canada and Australia: the permanent forces had always been depleted for the purposes of training the Militia; and the principle they should adopt when they had a permanent force and a Militia was to see that the men employed on the Militia were supernumerary. He asked the Minister whether he would not take into consideration the appointment of a Militia Council—a non-party, a non-political Board, something on the lines of the Railway Board.

said that after the distinguished military men who had taken part in the discussion— all of them, he believed, were military men —(laughter)—he felt a little shy in rising to say a few words, because his military career—such as it was—had finished a long while ago, by which time he had achieved the rank of corporal. (Laughter.) He had never got beyond that. But he might; say that he had always taken a very great interest in the defence of the country, and it had led him at one time in rather a difficult position, because he had been denounced by a Governor of the country as a traitor, and anything more ludicrous he could not imagine. He remembered that he speech of the hon. gentleman who had introduced this (Colonel Sir A. Woolls Sampson) led him back to 1877—his speech seemed to be an echo of the speeches delivered in the House then. Since that time they had had nine wars in South Africa, and they had spent 300 millions of money. The total produce of the diamond mines would not have paid that money thrown away in South Africa on war. Therefore, when he heard a speech like that of the hon. member he felt a little alarmed, because those speeches of 1877 had been followed by a cycle of wars, from which they had only emerged now. In 1877‘there was a “policy of vigour” in the councils of the country, and; the result was found in the annals of debt of the country now. We had to pay the interest on some four millions of money, which was the result of the policy of vigour then put; into force. Therefore, he hailed with the greatest pleasure the speech of the Minister of the Interior, which appeared to him to place the question in its proper sphere, and to put before the country considerations which we should all of us lay to heart if we wished to make a, country at all of this. His hon. friend (Colonel Woolls Sampson) said it would be necessary to have a permanent force of 5,000 men. Well, did the hon. member know that at the present moment there was a permanent force at the disposal of the Government at any moment of something like 4,750 men, drilled, armed, and most efficient? He did not think the hon. member could realise that fact. These men were doing most excellent military work. (Hear, hear.) If he were to say anything about these forces, he would say that the great difficulty was the immobility of the officers. There was no way of passing the officers on. There was no promotion for them, and it broke the hearts of men when they were kept for such a long while in the service without promotion. The stoppage of the flow of promotion was always exceedingly detrimental to the efficiency of an army, or anything of that sort. He had no fear of the natives, and disagreed entirely with all those ideas of calling the natives our natural enemies. They ought to be our natural friends. (Hear, hear.) They were in the same country with us, and the best way of providing for native defence, apart, of course, from the ordinary police forces, was to govern the natives properly. Do that, and we would have no need of apprehension at all. It was of vital importance to us in this country. What a danger it would be if we managed, by misgovernment, to unite these natives against us. That was the true danger before this country—lest by misgovernment by arbitrary measures, by injustice, and by want of consideration, we managed to unite these natives with a common, grievance, which here to force they had never had; Another great danger was that we might manage these natives so badly that they might become in real earnest what, people often talked so lightly about— our natural enemies. If the dine contingency took place that we were ever face to face with a hostile expedition in this country, it would be a very bad day for us it that hostile expedition found a body of natural enemies ready to its hands. Therefore, apart from justice, apart from right, apart from anything else, it was the soundest, the best, and the most economical policy in this matter to see that we governed these natives well, and made them our friends, instead of our enemies (Hear, hear.) Why should not the natives of this country be like the negroes of the United States—ever ready to come forward and to die for their country? Now they did not expect the Minister to come forward with a detailed scheme at the present time, but in his (Mr. Merriman’s) opinion, the Minister had done the country a great service in drawing attention to the great need which lay before this country, and that was the need of providing some great force, which in the event of any foreign country setting foot in South Africa, would enable us to defend South Africa from our own resources. (Cheers.) In this country we stood in a peculiar position. We had two foreign nations on our borders. They were friends. But friendship among nations changed very often, and the time might come when these nations might not be friendly. Other contingencies might take place. Only a few months ago we had a battleship belonging to an wholly alien Power--and a yellow Power. Well when he saw that battleship in Table Bay, he fell, as many of his friends had often felt when they slept on the veld, and when, just before the dawn, a cold wind swept over them. Well, he could not help feeling much the same when he saw that battleship. It was the dawn of a new day. Other Powers were coming into the world, Powers we thought nothing of now, but the day might come when these Powers would, have powerful ships and powerful armies, and when they might even dream of setting foot in South Africa, and if we shaped our affairs in this country so badly that they found allies in the people of the country, things might be very awkward, for us. Therefore it was necessary now for us, in a time of profound peace, and little as we might like the expenditure, to face the duty which was cast upon us, and to, see that that duty was carried out. (Cheers.) The Minister, rightly, in his opinion, had drawn attention to the fact that we could no longer rely on the Volunteer system if we wanted an efficient army. We must have some sort of compulsory service. It was an old standing law of South Africa that every man was liable to come out when he was called upon. The burgher law must be the foundation of the whole of our army. It would be wrong—entirely wrong —for the Minister to come with a cut-and-dried militia or anything of that sort now He must manage to get the people with him, and to bring home to the people of this country the duty which was upon them. (Hear, hear.) And he hoped that every man in that House who went to visit his constituents would lay that before them: that it was their duty to come forward and to share in this grave responsibility. Now he had been recommended to consult the Natal Militia Act. Well, he had done so. It, did everything which it should not do. (Laughter.) It did not, make any proper provision for the training of the soldiers. If we wanted to have a citizen army, a cheap army, and an economical army, an army upon which we could depend, there must be proper training. If they went to countries like Switzerland and Norway, they would find that every man was compelled to devote a certain number of days to learn soldiering. The result of that was that the men were thoroughly trained, and that then they had a real citizen army, instead of having a sham army. We had been spoiled in this country by always having to fight with un armed or imperfectly-armed barbarians. It was this that was the ruin of every army. It was the ruin of the French Army—their fighting in Algeria—and he was sorry to say it had prejudiced the British Army— their constant expeditions on unarmed or partially armed people. It was not, the way to train up an army. His hon. friend made some good remarks about discipline and the need for discipline. He thought they ought to lay sufficiently to heart the lessons of the South African war. As an outsider and a spectator, and knowing there were many men in that House who had borne their share in that war—and a glorious share, he should say that the fault lay not so much in the discipline of the rank and file, because when men could be brought to face a superior force and to lose 45 per cent of their number in the battle, they could hardly be said to be undiciplined. Where he should say, as an observer, a mere spectator, the fault in the discipline was, was that there was no coordination of the commanders. It was the officers, he thought, who really wanted discipline more than the men. They had a minimum of discipline, and yet those men, the little discipline they had, enabled them to do the most heroic deeds of fighting—(hear, hear)—and finally to perish almost to a man in one of the bloodiest battles of history—(hear, hear)—which showed what material we had got in this country, if it were only properly used and properly trained. In the essential part of discipline, which was obedience, and not losing your head, he thought perhaps in South Africa we were as well off as most people. At least, that was the opinion of foreign military critics. A French military critic referred to the three qualities which the South Africans had. One was the absence of nerves, a calm temperament, what they would call, he supposed, phlegm, a keen eye, and, above all, an absence of nerves in action, and the last factor, he said, was absolutely overwhelming. Over and over again this critic referred to the importance of the morale of the troops, which, he said, was more important than military instruction. This morale required time, which was exactly what, under the Volunteer system they could never get. It was the character of the people which was really one of the most essential parts of discipline, only to be inculcated in youth by means of their education and by the hardy and manly lives which they led. There was one other point which he did not think the Minister touched upon, and it was essential, if we were ever going to have anything like a sound defence system, and that was to set about at once organising on a sound foundation our ordnance. It was of the greatest possible importance that we should have the best material and an ample supply of it. That could be set on foot at once, and should be undertaken, and he hoped they would see that, if the time unhappily came, we should not find ourselves in a hurry-scurry, relying entirely upon, the Imperial authorities. As to the artillery, he agreed that if we were to have artillery at all, we must have something like a permanent force, certainly as a nucleus. In regard to the training of officers, that was a very difficult question. He was afraid that he must join with his hon. friend on the other side that the idea he threw out about combining agriculture and military training would not work, because the evil even now of our agricultural colleges was that a large percentage of the students—he was afraid to say how many of them—went there, it was true, to learn agriculture, but invariably when they had finished their course they wanted a Government, appointment. He should think that useful lessons might be derived from Norway, where they paid great attention to their officers. It struck him that some of the best training for officers was to go and do service with a regiment either in this country or elsewhere. Of course, we had to face this question, that we had got to rely upon ourselves, otherwise we had better cease talking about being a nation, and, therefore, any ideas that we had come to manhood. The duty that members of that House had in this matter was to spread the information on this subject in every possible way. He would suggest to his hon. friend that he should take the small manual to which he (Mr. Merriman) had referred, and which contained a very lucid account of the Swiss and Norwegian armies, have it translated into Dutch, and spread through the country. It would do an immense deal of good. People were not familiar yet with this question. They knew what the burgher was. The burgher, of all men in the world, was one of the most difficult men to get to do anything against his will. All the schemes they had had before had broken upon that rock. Fortunately, they had got in that House many men of experience of war, who were trusted by their fellow-countrymen. They could play a great part in the future in getting our defence scheme upon a proper basis. They could be trusted, if anybody could be trusted, to steer the course between inefficiency and militarism, a difficult thin-g to do, and one which would demand all the talents of which ibis hon. friend (General Smuts) had such a large quantity—(hear, hear) to avoid the Scylla of inefficiency, and not to fall into the Charybdis of militarism. He believed that when the importance of this question was brought home t-o the people by their trusted leaders, they would rise nobly to the call His hon. mend had said it would demand self-sacrifice. South Africa had shown during the last few years that she was prepared to sacrifice everything for an ideal. (Hear, hear.) There could be no greater ideal than that of having a firm and strong national defence in this country. As long as the world lasted, and people continued to maintain their national pride, so long would the example of South Africa be held up by people who knew what the meaning of self-sacrifice was, and by people who did not shrink from it in the hour of danger He hoped this same spirit would be evinced in dealing with this important question, that they would not go rashly at it, but that they would go with due thought, with an eye to economy, and that they would remember that in one part of our defence the best defence we could have was good government, and making allies of those people against whom we were supposed to be always arming ourselves, but that when the time came, under the able guidance of his hon. friend, South Africa would find itself ready for any emergency that occurred. (Cheers ).

said he would like to ask the House if an emergency arose, and they were to have 5,000 men concentrated to quell a disturbance, what would be the position of the country? The whole country would be depleted of its police force, which would be concentrated on one spot. If the right hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) thought that a force of 5,000 men would be sufficient for the maintenance of peace in South Africa, then he (the speaker) could not agree with him. He considered that greater provision would have to be made. With regard to the remarks of the right hon. gentleman about the policy of vigour proposed in 1877, but not carried out, he thought that if his right hon. friend had shown a little more of the policy of vigour about that time, they would not be in the position to-day of having an European force with the biggest military organisation in the world on their borders. Proceeding, he said that this country had had the reputation in the past of having the finest stamp of remount horses in the world, and he suggested that in the defence scheme the Government should consider the question of re-establishing the horse industry in this country. He considered that it was also the duty of the Government, in view of the importance of mounted soldiers to South Africa, to adopt some scheme of registration of horses, so that in cases of emergency the Government would have first claim on the animals. In regard to the training of officers, he considered that officers who were to be attached as soon as possible to the defence force should be attached to the headquarters staff of the Imperial military forces in this country. As to the training of Volunteers in the towns, he said that, speaking from personal experience, as things stood at present, it was almost impossible to get anything like efficiency for the reason that there was no way of enforcing discipline. As the Volunteer forces were now organised if an officer tried to be strict with his men, they could at any moment leave. He thought that the Minister, in saying that there should be a more stringent system of Volunteers to make the scheme workable in towns, would have to devise some means by which the status of the Volunteers was raised. Speaking at Durban, the Minister of Defence had said that it was not intended to take any money spent on coastal defence out of the Naval contribution, but according to the resolution which was to be submitted to the Imperial Conference it was stated that the policy of the Government was to take money out of the Naval contribution for expenditure on coastal defences. That meant that the country’s contribution to the Navy would be very much reduced. He would like to remind hon. members who came from the inland Provinces that when the question of naval defence was discussed in the old Cape Assembly in 1898, the late Mr. Theron, Chairman of Committees, opposed the scheme which was introduced by Sir James Roseinnes on the ground that the inland colonies were equally protected by the Navy, and under the scheme would contribute nothing. At a later stage he (the speaker) hoped that the Minister would tell the House what the intentions of the Government were with regard to South Africa’s contribution to the Navy. If they established a proper College it would be possible, in a certain time, to man all the forts with locally-trained men. But there was the matter of the laying of mines and other things, and if it was the intention of the Government to keep up the Naval Volunteer force they would be able to carry out such work at harbours in a time of trouble He went on to say that at the time of the Natal rebellion the Naval Volunteers were prepared to send 100 men to the front. He suggested the appointment of a standing Committee on Defence, composed of members on both sides of the House, so as to take such an important question out of the region of party politics. This committee could discuss in camera matters and details which it would be inadvisable to discuss on the floor of the House. That was done in Germany, and he thought that the scheme might be followed in this country. He trusted that consideration would be given the suggestion that he had put forward.

said that it was necessary that the able-bodied men of South Africa should be trained to defend the country. He thought that men above 25 should also be trained, and could not see why the Minister should differentiate between the towns and the villages. The hon. member spoke of the superiority of mounted troops in such a country as South Africa, and was not in favour of infantry. Dealing with officers, he said that they must have men who had had some practical experience, and they must not have officers in command of troops who had just come out of a military college; if they had suitable officers, who knew the needs if the country, and with whom the men got on well, much could be achieved. The country could not afford to support a standing army, for which reason they would have to confine themselves to an efficient artillery, combined with a citizen army. The artillerists should form a reserve after leaving the ranks. In his constituency the burghers were ready to defend their native soil on the old lines. If the hon. member for Braamfontein had made his speech twenty years earlier, the war might have been avoided.

said that he would not have intervened in the debate had it not been for the interpretation placed upon it by the right hon. the member for Victoria West. Continuing, he said that such a scheme as had been propounded by the Minister of the Interior could only be successful by the co-operation of all sections of the community, whereas the speech of the right hon. member for Victoria West seemed to him to be an appeal to one section of the community. After all, was only one section; of the community to take part in the defence of the country?

Oh no.

said that he fought in the war for one section of the community, and he thought that some appreciation should be given those of the section of the community which he represented, because, after all, that section of the community made as great sacrifices as the other section of the community. What he was afraid of was the impression, that would go forth to those who lived in towns because the speech of Mr. Merriman seemed to coincide with that of the Minister of the Interior. He (Sir George) believed in compulsory service and in discipline. We had the Volunteers, who were in a state of transition, and we wanted the support of the Volunteers and the town population, which he knew Mr. Merriman did not think much of. But we wanted the support of the townspeople, because a bigger proportion of the inhabitants lived in the towns than in the country. One impression left on his mind by the Minister of the Interior was that the country people would supply the mounted forces, and that the towns people could do the infantry or “foot-slogging” work, and the technical and signalling work. If that idea went forth it would not leave a good impression. If a townsman could furnish a horse on the same conditions that a country man did, then he should begiven an opportunity of doing so. (Ministerial cheers.) He wished to see all join hand-in-hand to make a success of the defence scheme. The days of the Volunteers were gone. But what had the Volunteers done in this country? That was a point which Mr. Merriman had absolutely ignored. What had the Imperial Light Horse done? They were practically Volunteers. Then the defence of Wepener, when 1,400 men held seven and a half miles of country, was carried out by a force which included a certain section of the Cape Mounted Riflemen, but the bulk of the men were Volunteers. Yet there had been no word of praise, or recommendation or recognition of what the Volunteers had done in this country. These Volunteers were drawn from the towns, and the towns, as a rule, had supplied the bulk of the Volunteers who had done the fighting in the Cape. Proceeding. Sir George said he wished to give the Minister of the Interior, an opportunity of clearing away the impression his speech had created in regard to the towns and volunteering. He (Sir George) wished the towns to be placed on the same basis as the country, so that everyone could take part in the defence of South Africa. Another point was this South Africa had a mass of men who, whether they came from town or country, would make as fine a lot of soldiers as could be found in any part of the world; out the men were no good without officers to train them. The success of the scheme depended on the immediate provision of some kind of College where officers could properly be trained. If they depended on untrained officers, the scheme would cover be a success. There was plenty of material in this country from which to obtain the bulk of the officers, but we might have to go out side South Africa for the head of the Training College. But if the defence scheme were to be brought into existence in two years, not a day should be lost in starting schools where men might be trained to become officers. There was no doubt that no country could exist that depended on Volunteers for its defence, and the foundations of the defence of any country must be compulsory service. (Cheers.) Our Mother Country would have to alter its ways in this respect if she were to retain her position as one of the greatest nations of the world. If a man would not fight for his country, he would not give him the franchise or civil rights. (Cheers.) A country must not entirely depend on paid soldiers, but the men must come out and take the responsibility of defending their homes. (Cheers.)

said that the co-operation of every man in the country was required if they were to make a success of such a vital matter as defence. It would be entirely wrong to assume that they could build up an efficient fighting force by relying on one or another of the two races. If the hon. member for Georgetown had drawn any such conclusion from the speech of the Minister of Defence, he might say that his colleague had been misunderstood. Though hon. members might express themselves a little awkwardly at times, there was no reason at all for supposing that Ministers’ intentions were not all they should be. South Africa was in an enviable position in that, whereas in the past they had often discussed schemes having for their object the working of damage to one race or the other, both races were now quietly deliberating as to the best means of forming a common defence force. Absolutely equal rights were aimed at by the Government. He trusted that the line of division which was still a feature in the House would disappear in the future defence force, in fact he counted on that force as a potent factor in doing away with the racial question. It was their intention to use the defence force for the purpose of really unifying the nation, in fact, for the building up of something greater and better than that which was South African only. The bickerings and ambushes of the pest had lasted long enough as it was. The material at their disposal was the finest in the world. Most people in South Africa had gained experience in the arts of war. As for himself, though he was not a trained officer, he had been able to lay his finger on the weak spots in the Boer armour as well as on those of the organisation of the British Army. If they delayed too long in establishing a defence force, the experience gained might be lost. Now was the time to lead the existing enthusiasm into the proper channel. Finding fault with the scheme outlined by the Minister of Defence was rather premature, however. He could, support the scheme, and his own experience would go towards perfecting it. They were all agreed that an efficient force was needed for the protection of life and property.

Business was suspended at 6 p.m.

said that the idea was to have an efficient defence scheme which would not be too expensive, because they must take the economic conditions of South Africa into consideration, and they must not make the defence scheme too heavy a financial burden on the country. Nor could they go to the country districts for all the mounted men while expecting the townsmen to do infantry work only. Economy carried too far would defeat its own object. The old Transvaal commando law was a good one, because it took in everyone. What he wanted to see was a practical scheme, under which every able-bodied man could be able to defend his own country.(Hear, hear.) There was much to be said on behalf of this country being defended by its own people and everyone who considered South Africa as his home must also consider that he was a soldier of South Africa. (Cheers.) What his observations had taught him was that the first thing they must learn was to shoot; and what was more important, was to learn to judge distances correctly, and know what the first thing they must learn was to shoot; take up, because if they once knew that, they would be able to shoot to much better advantage. What they also wanted was wapenshaws, where in a friendly way, both races came together annually, and where they learnt to shoot. They should join rifle clubs meanwhile. They must not be too economical, however, owing to the great importance of these “meets.” Then there was the question of discipline and of having good and efficient officers, who were able to exercise sufficient influence on the troops under their command: and very much depended on what sort of men they had as officers. A good officer could effect more with a few disciplined troops than an indifferent officer with a large body of men. They must, he continued, not begin by spending too much money at the outset, but begin in a small way, and find their feet, first of all. Speaking of the experience he had gained in the Transvaal during the war, he said that the whole thing on which everything had turned was the officers; and once they had men in command whom they could fully trust, they were perfectly safe. Fortunately they had excellent material for the training of officers The moverof the motion (Colonel Sir A. Woolls-Sampson) had alluded to a great war which they might in the future get in South Africa, but he thought that that danger no longer existed, although it had existed in the past. Now that the two races had become one in South Africa, he did not fear that such a war would ever come about. (Cheers.) It as clear to him that with regard to the natives —a matter which the right hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) had referred to—if they were fairly treated and properly governed, they need not fear the slightest danger from them. (Hear, hear.) But if they treated them harshly or like slaves, there might be danger; and he could assure the House that the Government would not do anything in regard to the natives which would give rise to disaffection among them—the Government would treat them fairly and justly. (Hear, hear.) He thought that the present was the proper time to go into the whole question of defence, not only on their own account, but on the score of the peace of the whole of South Africa and of England, too. (Cheers.) It was a source of great satisfaction to him to be able to say these words within ten years of the war. A great battle had been won, considering they could meet and discuss affairs such as these harmoniously. The matter was urgent, because the Mother Country might withdraw its troops at any time, which would leave South Africa defenceless.

said that as one who had had a little rough and ready Colonial military experience, he differed with some of the views which had been expressed in the course of the debate. He did not think the Minister of Defence, judging from his speech, quite appreciated the value of the Volunteer forces of the Union. (Hear, hear.) He was also disappointed that the Minister of Defence did not speak a little more enthusiastically of the Cadet movement, in which he (Colonel Leuchars) thought the solution of the defence problem of the country largely lay. His experience was that youths who had been Cadets, when they came to be Volunteers, were quite good enough after a couple of days’ training, for any rough and ready work. He did not agree with the remarks of the hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman), when he spoke in such a disparaging way of the Natal Militia Act. The hon. member told the House that the Act gave no powers whatever, and was not really an Act at all. Well, the hon. member could not have studied the Act, for, as a matter of fact, it gave the same powers as did the Burgher Acts of the Transvaal and the Orange Free State. It gave the Governor-General power to turn out men for military service in time of trouble, and it empowered the authorities to make up any deficiencies in the Volunteer ranks by means of the ballot. Originally, the Bill contained a clause providing for compulsory service, but that had been deleted. Proceeding, Colonel Leuchars said that of course they must have compulsory service soon. Excepting in Natal, they had no power to turn out the manhood of the Union in case of necessity. With reference to the other scheme of compulsory training, he thought they should go very slowly. There was not, he thought, much hurry about that. He did not think the danger to-day was as great as it was, for with modern weapons they would not require so big a force as was needful, say, fifty years ago, with the arms they then had. Of course, if they were going to raise an army to fight a European nation, it would be a different matter, but he did not think they need worry about that at the present moment.

said he would have been glad could he have joined in the cry of Peace, peace! But though he agreed with the Prime Minister that the native races should be fairly and justly treated, they should remember that, even if they did treat them in that, way that would not be an, absolute guarantee for the future peace of South Africa. The number of black and coloured people outnumbered the whites by six to one, and the natives could never be lost sight of in any defence scheme which they might adopt. The speech of the mover of that motion had deeply impressed him of the danger which might exist. The hon. member proceeded to speak in terms of high praise of the Boy Scout movement, and said that it was an excellent beginning—where lads were taught discipline and taught to observe; and later they would be excellent for defence purposes. His objection to the movement, however, was the enormous sum spent on uniforms and the like; and he thought it would be much better to spend that money on rifles and ammunition. The Free State of old had an excellent artillery corps. The men were well trained, and when their time had expired they could either join the reserves or stay on, and be trained as officers. The hon. member went on to deal with the burgher movement which had existed in the old Free State and said that what should be done was to arm every burgher, so that they would all learn to shoot. (Hear, hear.) Owing to the war, many of the burghers had been without rifles, for some years, and many, unfortunately, had forgotten how to shoot. He was in favour of annual wapenschauws, and a prize being offered to every district for the best shot. He took exception to the way in which the hon. member for Georgetown had dealt with the speech made by the Minister of Defence.

said the speech of the Minister of Defence the other day was one acceptable to both sides of the House, and he was very glad to see that the hon. members who had spoken during the debate had divested the question of all its political bearings. Now the Minister had merely given a rough outline of a scheme. It was quite true that we had in this country splendid material, but without organisation we would be unable to make use of it effectively. Without organisation, it would be rather a danger than a service to the Union in times of trouble. Supposing they had 20,000 men, all enthusiastic, all anxious to take up arms in defence of the Union, but all scattered over the country, it would take months to get them all at Pretoria or Cape Town, and to organise them into companies, with proper officers, and make them an effective fighting force. Now they could not discuss the scheme in all its bearings unless they heard from the Government how much money the Union was prepared to spend, and the number of men required in the different branches of the service. They had had Switzerland held up as a pattern. Well, the conditions, such as the cost of living, were very different in Switzerland, and though he was in favour of compulsory service, it was far more difficult here than it was in Switzerland. In Switzerland, where living was very much cheaper, they had to the square mile 80 Europeans, compared with one in South Africa, and that he thought would make the question of compulsory service, although not insuperable or impossible, a very much more difficult problem in South Africa than it was in Switzerland. He was very pleased to hear from the Minister of the Interior that he intended to make the scientific corps connected with the defence force of a permanent nature. He had had some experience of the Colonial Forces, and it had taught him that they could not get artillery corps which were capable of working their guns sufficiently well as to be able to combat any other artillery corps which might be brought against them. He did not care how enthusiastic the men might be, to his mind they had not sufficient time to devote to the science of gunnery to make them as efficient as it was necessary for them to be to meet the requirements of the country. (Hear, hear.) Now he came to the Volunteers, who had rendered excellent service, but who had not been greatly encouraged. The feeling of patriotism, however, had been so strong that the men did not require very much encouragement. They did all they had done for the love of then country. (Hear, hear.) He considered that the Volunteers of the Cape Province had for years past been starved, and he hoped that under this new scheme every possible encouragement would be given to the infantry Volunteers. He considered that the capitation grants should not be too high, but should be sufficient to keep the regiments together, and not place burdens upon the officers, who could ill afford to put their hands in their pockets in order to maintain the efficiency of their regiments. He thought that if the Government paid on the £ per £ principle for officers’ uniforms, such provision would meet the case. He thought the Minister was mistaken when he said that the cost of 10,000 Volunteers to the Union was £440,000 per annum. If the Minister would work out a scheme providing for £10 per man per annum, that would be quite sufficient for his clothing, equipment, and training. The Minister would have to depend upon infantry for the bulk of the force of the country, because in the actual combat, as a rule, the infantry decided the day. He thought more encouragement should be given to shooting. Unless a man could shoot and handle a rifle efficiently and effectively, he was no good as a soldier. In the case of a man who could not shoot, it would be better to leave him at home to rock the cradle than to send him into the field, because he would only give work to the commissariat department; and the hospital. He was very pleased to see that the Minister was going to make this Act compulsory; that be was going to compel a certain number of youths to loin different regiments and to take their share of the burdens of the country. And quite right too. There were employers of labour who in every possible way encouraged their employees to join Volunteer forces, but there were a number of employers who took great exception to, and prevented their employees joining these forces. There were institutions in this place that had a rule that those in their employ should not join Volunteer corps. Those people should, he considered, be bound under heavy penalties to allow their employees to join the Volunteer forces of the country, and the Minister should take good care to see that those men who were compelled to join under the compulsory clause of the Act were not injured or handicapped in their business. He was very pleased to see that the Minister had provided for Reserves. They had no Reserves at the present time, and an army without Reserves was a sham. If it got a rebuff at the first shot, it would be finished, and would not be able to go on and do justice to its country. It was a bad general who did not keep a Reserve, and it was an unwise Government that did not retain a Reserve military force. Now, they had heard a great deal about Cadets. Some hon. members seemed to be very enthusiastic about them. At one time he was enthusiastic. He gave every possible encouragement to the Cadets, because he thought they would act as feeders to the Volunteer regiment at his command. He was, however, very disappointed with the result of his efforts. He was astonished to see how few of the Cadets joined the regiment which he commanded when they reached the age when they could join. The Volunteer officers in Cape Town had the same tale to tell. He thought that state of affairs was due to the fact that the boys probably left school at the average age of 141/2 years, and that they were not allowed to join the Volunteers until they reached the age of 17 years. If the Cadets were going to be of any service in the way of feeding the regiments of the Union, it must be so arranged that when they finished their training as Cadets they must go right into the regiments. Unless that were done, he did not think they need trouble very much about the Cadets as a component part of the fighting force of the Union. He was very glad to see that the Minister had taken this matter in hand. He had dealt with it in a business-like way. After al., it was the business of the country to provide for its defence. At one time South Africa was a source of anxiety and weakness to the Empire, but now it was a source of strength and pride to the Empire. The English and the Dutch were two races who loved liberty and freedom more than any other race in the world, because they knew the benefits of liberty and freedom, and had enjoyed them for a very much longer period than any other nation in the world. The man who would not take up arms and risk has life and fight for the liberty and freedom which he enjoyed under his flag should not enjoy liberty and freedom, so far as the political aspect of the country was concerned. He was very pleased that the hon. member for Georgetown (Sir Geo. Farrar) had expressed himself in that way to-day. He had no fear as to the success of compulsory service. He thought the patriotism of the people would submit to the compulsory clauses, and so maintain peace and order inside the Union, and should the frontiers of South Africa or any part of the Union be at any time threatened. He was perfectly certain that Briton and Boer would fight side by side to repel the invader, and to maintain the liberty and freedom for which they had so often fought, and which was so dear and priceless to both races. (Cheers.)

said that they all recognised that a defence force for South Africa was necessary and composed of those who had made South Africa their home. They were all grateful to the hon. member for Braamfontein (Colonel Sir Aubrey Woolls-Sampson) for introducing that matter, and to the Minister of Defence (General Smuts) for the very able speech he had delivered. Every on a who lived in the country, between the ages of 16 and 60, must recognise that he must def end, and be able to defend, his country when circumstances demanded it. It. Was necessary that there should be same permanent force or forces, including Artillery, under the command of able men, and there must be adequate training for the men. Whatever might be said against the Volunteers, he was not in flavour of doing away all at once with the voluntary system; because experience had taught him that the man who volunteered was the man on whom everything turned—as against the man who had been farced to serve—not that he said that Volunteers were necessarily always the best soldiers. They must, at all events, have the people of South Africa with them in any scheme they might adopt; and once they had that, they would have a force which could hold its own against any foe which might try to invade the country. Provided South Africa was able to introduce discipline and concord between the races, it had nothing to fear.

said that despite all that had been said, not a penny had been put up for dealing with the defences of Table Bay. Then Durban was unprotected. They had the British Navy, of course, but did they deserve to depend on the British Navy, when they only contributed a paltry £80,000 a year? They were told that something would be done in the way of increasing this amount, but so far nothing had been done. They had broad acres in this country, and he thought the capitalists who owned these broad acres should be asked to help find the money for any scheme that might be brought forward. He dilated on the importance of Natal so far as coal was concerned, and thought it necessary that Durban should be properly defended. Most of the collieries were British owned, but the Germans were pushing forward, and they had purchased large tracts of land, which were to be opened up later on. Dealing with land defence, he said it was absurd to say that the men of the towns in this country would not make as good soldiers and even mounted infantrymen as the men in the country. He argued that they needed as much discipline among the corps of the country as the corps of the town, and both should be well officered. He was glad to hear that the Minister was proposing a College for officers. He went on to say that rifle associations in Natal had been badly treated, as their grants had been whittled down, until very little had been left. He thought, as they were in the neighbourhood of natives, that these associations should be encouraged as much as possible. There was (said Mr. Mevler, in conclusion) serious danger at the present time, and a little wind might blow up the flame which always was smouldering in Natal. That danger would endure so long as the Government continued to pamper a man who was regarded in Natal as a criminal, and so long as he was allowed to go to the mines and collect tribute from the natives as if he were a king. (Hear, hear)

said that all nations preached peace —so did South Africa—but they were all preparing for war; and why should not South Africa also do so, under those circumstances? He thought that where the Minister of Defence had said that young men between 18 and 25 years should have an annual military training, he did not go far enough; and he thought that even older men should have to take part up to 50 or 55 years. Not that he wanted the elder men to go through all the evolutions which the younger men had to, but they must not lose sight of discipline and the important part it played. That also applied to the judging of distances. He was glad to see that the Minister of Defence had made some provision for Cadet Corps; but it was easier for the town lads to take part in that movement than for the country lads to do so; and he asked whether something could not be devised by which all would have the same opportunities. He thought something should be done to teach all lads to shoot, even though the Government might have to assist financially. In the late war the best men he had fought against were the Natal Carbineers, because they could shoot straight. Men should be well trained in the handling of horses, for mounted troops proved to be the most useful in South Africa; and he preferred to see as little infantrymen as possible. He hoped that the Government would take immediate steps to introduce legislation to deal with the adequate defence of the Union. His opinion was that they should not delay the matter; because delay was dangerous: and a weak State was always more liable to attack than a properly defended State. Hence the desirability of drawing up a suitable and efficient scheme for the defence of South Africa.

said that he had been particularly struck with the good-natured tone of this debate. He could not agree with the hon. member for Turffontein when be said that the Minister’s speech was somewhat bald, because he thought that when they considered the nature of the speech, it must necessarily be bald. The Minister himself inferred that one of the obstacles which he would have to confront would be that of racial differences. Now he (Major Silburn) was bound to confess that during the short time he had been in that Parliament, he had to a certain extent changed his views on this question. (Hear, hear.) He hoped that House was the grave of racial differences— (hear, hear)—and he thought that the 121 members who formed that first Parliament were going to be the grave-diggers. (Hear, hear.) What he liked about the Minister’s outline of policy on this defence question was that he said distinctly that it was going to be non-party and non-racial. He was at one with the hon. member for Turffontein when he suggested that they should have a Defence Council. The defence force should be in the hands of a non-political Council. The Minister did not pay altogether a compliment to many of the gentlemen sitting on his own side of the House, who fought during the war. He complained that they Jacked success in that war owing to lack of training among the officers. When the war broke out, he (Major Silburn) had just finished a highly technical course in the Artillery College in England. When he came out here, he had to unlearn a lot that he had learnt, and to learn a lot that he hadn’t learned at the hands of the Minister and many of his colleagues. He wished the Minister to clear himself of this idea of highly trained officers. The officers who came out from the Staff College were not the success that many people expected them to be. On the other hand, the practical man, the regimental officer, was the man who made his mark in the war. He therefore asked the Minister to be very careful on this question of Military Colleges. The Minister went on to speculate as to what would have been the result of that war had those officers of his been highly trained. Now, however highly trained those men were, whatever forces he and his colleagues had had behind them, the result of that war was absolutely inevitable. The Republics were lost on the high seas between the coasts of Great Britain and the shores of Africa. It was the working of that inexorable law—sea power—which conquered those Republics. It was not the British Army, but the Navy that did it. He mentioned this because the Minister himself seemed to have lost sight of sea power, and what it meant to such a country as this. The geographical position of South Africa, commanding as it did one of the five gateways of the ocean, necessitated that the obligations of the British Empire in the East were such that they must always have an Imperial garrison here. They must not, however, think that this lessened the obligations in regard to defence of our own country. He hoped that the Minister, with the ability he had shown in the past, would go further, and would actually initiate at this Imperial Conference that was coming on some system by which the Dominions would cease to be silent partners in regard to sea power, and would become active powers. If they lost that sea power they might have a yellow Power, or, on the other hand, it might be the Germans. Supposing it were the Germans, they would have a booted and spurred gentleman sitting in the Speaker’s chair, and dictating terms to them. That would be the position if Great Britain lost the command of the sea. He would like this matter to be dealt with on business lines. Let their contribution to the Navy for their security be on business lines. The importers of this country, in order to have security at sea, paid vast sums in insurance premiums. He should like to see a premium paid by this Dominion and the other Dominions on those lines on the commerce between this country and other parts. He urged that there should be a contribution to the Navy in the form of a premium on the total value of our trade on the high seas, deducting there from the amount of money expended on our coast defences. He would like to see the Minister go further than keep up our forts; he wanted to see a direct monetary contribution made on business lines to the Navy.

said that it pleased him to see the feeling of union which existed in the House on that question, which was a good augury for the future; for if there was once disunion they would never get South Africa defended as it should be. He alluded to the Commando Law in the old Free State, under which every male, from 16 to 60, could be called upon to defend his country. He said that it had been a gratifying sign to see many men, who were over 60 years of age, come forward to assist in the war—and the obligation to do so should be maintained. He hoped that the Government would devise a scheme, or that the Imperial Government would devise a scheme, by which South Africa, or all the British Dominions, would be consulted on all matters involving war or peace, because if England went to war South Africa would have to be adequately defended. Every man should be only too ready to defend his country, and should be given the opportunity to do so; and he hoped that no distinction would be made between farmers and townsmen. As to the Kafir problem, he was not afraid of it; and it was nonsense to speak of the Kafirs, because if they were fairly treated there would never be any fear of their rising against the Europeans. They should drop the contribution to the Navy, and use the money for the purpose of organising a thoroughly efficient force in the country itself. He hoped that some of their best men would be sent to some European Military College, and receive an adequate training.

agreed with the hon. member for Braamfontein (Colonel Sir Aubrey Woolls-Sampson) as to whether they should not keep their eyes open in regard to certain movements amongst the native population, especially as far as the Ethiopian movement was concerned, of which they must be very careful. He was not afraid that there would ever again be a fight between Boer and Briton—that was past for ever. They had as a motto “Africa for the Europeans,” but the motto of the Ethiopian movement was” Africa for the Native.” He thought that the problem of the natives was no easy one, owing to the extremely large number of natives in the country, compared with Europeans; and if the natives and coloured people combined, the Europeans had to look out The Scout movement seemed a desirable one, but many of the older inhabitants looked upon it with some suspicion; but when they became more acquainted with the intricacies of the movement these feelings might change. The hon. member for Weenen have been unfair, because he expected too much in a short space of time. The hon. member went on to speak of the burgher movement, and said that if there were proper and regular training it could be turned into an almost ideal force, for the Boer lads were, in the ordinary course of things, trained to ride and shoot, and would prove to be very efficient citizen, soldiers, with a little more military training. Much could also foe done in regard to rifle clubs, and he hoped there would be no differentiation as between town and country. He did not agree with what some hon. members had said against infantry, and he thought that in many cases infantry proved more useful than mounted men—perhaps it was because they could not so easily flee from the enemy, but had to fight it out. (Laughter.) He was in favour of the voluntary system, for in the Orange Free State they had been able to do more with a few volunteers than with a great many pressed men.

maintained that there was no such great danger from the natives as had been indicated by the hon. member for Braamfontein (Sir A. Woolls-Sampson). The hon. member had the native danger on the brain. (Laughter.) As for the poor little Ethiopian Church, it was a mere nothing. The European cry that South Africa was to be made a white man’s country had driven the natives to take up an opposite cry. The destiny of South Africa was to be both a white and a black man’s country. He did not believe there was any danger at all of natives rising against the while man. In his constituency were half a million natives, and every one of them would deny the accusation of the hon. member for Braamfontein. They would say that they were not the enemies of the white man, but desired to be his friend. He believed that that was true of the greater portion of all the natives throughout the country. They had been told of unrest in Bechuanaland and in the Protectorates, but he did not; know of such things, and the officials did not know of them. But they had been told by the hon, member for Braamfontein that they must not pay any attention to the officials. Instead of looking forward to the absolute inevitability of whites and blacks coming into conflict, we should do our very best to secure that no conflict should take place. From 1881 to 1899 statements were made by the British about the Dutch and by the Dutch about the British, which almost made it inevitable that war would come at last. If people had not made speeches and the newspapers had not said things, then the history of South Africa might have been different. Now, the same thing was being carried on between the white and native races in South Africa. The speech of the hon. member for Boshof was proof of what be (Mr. Schreiner) said. Let them treat the natives fairly and justly, and there was no fear of such a rising. Everything combined to show that if we would only do our duty to these people, they would never rise against us. Would it not be worth while, he asked, to raise a military corps amongst the coloured people? There were no better soldiers in the world than the coloured people of South Africa. Give them a proper European leader, and they would follow him to the death. He did not say these people should be employed in South Africa, but they might be employed in other parts of the Empire. They should be made to feel that they were looked upon as people who would help us if this country were ever attacked. He felt if his duty to rise and protest against some of the ideas which had been put forward. The hon. member hoped that the Volunteer corps of the country would be recognised in the defence scheme, and paid a tribute to the work of the Cadets and the Scouts. He regretted that the Minister had not referred to the important part which the Navy played in the defence of South Africa.

said that if he had understood the last speaker aright, he had advocated coloured men and natives coming under that defence scheme, and even going out of South Africa to fight on behalf of the Empire. He hoped that such a thing would never come to pass, or that any but European troops would be used for the defence of the Empire. If they trained coloured troops, it would only be a menace; and he could not agree with the proposal. It would be an immoral thing in South Africa to place coloured and white troops on the same footing. Dealing with the Minister’s scheme, as viewed in the light of the late war, the hon. member said he foresaw some difficulties because they had learnt many things that there could be too much discipline, as in the case of the British Army, and too little discipline, as in the case of the Boer forces. Less discipline in the former and more discipline in the latter would have been all the better. In South Africa they should not have too much discipline: too many formal drills and the like. But adequate training was very necessary, and every year there should be such a training course; every man should be taught to be a good rider and a good shot, but especially a good horseman, for a bad horseman gave a lot of trouble. The mover of the motion, seemed to be strongly in favour of the Cadet Corps, and there he disagreed with the hon. member, for he had never believed that the Cadet Corps were worth all the money which had been spent on the movement, because it was not followed up after the lads left school, and his opinion was that the money could be better spent on rifle clubs, i.e., on teaching them to shoot.

said that the hon. member for Tembuland (Mr. Schreiner) evidently refused to understand what had been said by some hon. members about the natives. They had not spoken against the natives, and the hon. member for Boshof (Mr. Van Niekerk) had merely pointed out where danger might exist. The hon. member proceeded to speak of the necessity for the people of South Africa being taught discipline, and hoped that in any scheme which might be adopted, they would start in a small way, and learn to walk before they started to fly.

moved the adjournment of the debate till Wednesday.

The motion was agreed to, and the debate adjourned.