from the Town Council of Benoni, praying that further Asiatic immigration be stopped.

from J. Torrance, teacher, Education Department.

as Chairman, brought up the second report of the Select Committee on Public Accounts, reporting the Exchequer and Audit Bill with amendments.

moved, seconded by Mr. FICHARDT: That, the House go into committee on the Rill on Friday.

Agreed to.

Commission on Natives and Native Administration, 1909, Orange Free State.

Estimates of Additional Expenditure, ten months ending 31st March, 1911.

Estimates of Expenditure from Loan Funds to be defrayed from 31st May, 1910, to 31st March, 1912.

said he desired to ask the Minister of Native Affairs a question of which he had given private notice, as to whether there was any ground for the alarming statements in the public press as to the danger of the importation of sleeping sickness to the Union, and what steps were being taken to avoid such risk?

said he would be glad if the hon. member would put his question on the paper, so as to give him (Mr. Burton) an opportunity of answering fully. He might say at once, however, that from the information he had there was no reason to suppose that there was any danger at all at present of the introduction to the Union of sleeping sickness. The greatest possible care was taken in the examination of persons coming to the Union from parts where the disease existed, and the disease was very easily discovered: upon medical examination.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he is aware that Rule No. 8 of 1902 of the late Transvaal Supreme Court, providing that all documents of the Court must be in the English language, and that documents in connection with previous cases, which are not drafted in English, must be accompanied by an English translation, is still in force in the Provincial Division (Transvaal) of the Supreme Court; and (2) whether he will take the necessary steps to have the rules altered in conformity with section one hundred and thirty seven of the South Africa Act, 1909?

replied that although Rule 8 of the Transvaal Supreme Court Rules had not been specifically withdrawn or altered, it was regarded in practice as having been amended by the South Africa Act. Pleadings and other documents couched in the Dutch language were accepted and filed in the Registry of the Supreme Court at Pretoria without translation. Where the records in previous cases which had been drafted in Dutch were required, they were placed before the Court without translations, being couched in one of the official languages of the Union. If any of the Judges who had to deal with such records was not sufficiently conversant with Dutch, translations of the records were made departmentally and without cost to the litigants, for the convenience of such Judge. Steps were now being taken to bring about uniformity in the Rules of Court of the various Provinces, and the rule now in question would be altered in the new rules, so as to be in conformity with the section quoted.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he has received complaints as to the inconvenient situation and disgraceful condition of the various buildings used as Magistrates’ Courts in Cape Town; (2) whether, in his opinion, these complaints are well founded; (3) whether it is the intention of the Government to erect adequate buildings in a central position for the purpose of Magistrates’ Courts; and (4) whether, in the meantime, the Government will take steps to provide, before the rainy season, suitable temporary quarters, and, if not, what other steps the Government propose to take to remedy the existing state of affairs?

replied that complaints had from time to time been made as to the inconvenient situation and Condition of the buildings used for the Magistrate’s Courts in Cape Town, and he might say that a number of delegates had been specially deputed to see him on the subject, and he had gone to investigate and inspect the buildings in Caledon-square. It was recognised that there was reason for the complaints, and that there was necessity for improvement. When the new Supreme Court buildings were completed, it would be possible to reconsider the position; and a sum of money would be devoted to internal and external repairs. Until the new Supreme Court buildings were completed it would be practically impossible for him to recommend what the site of the new buildings would be, but it might be that the old Supreme Court buildings would be used for the Magistrate’s Court.

asked the Minister of Lands whether he has decided to establish a township on the farm Kafferkraal, No. 406, Ward Elands-rivier, district Pretoria; and, if so, when he intends to cause the township to be laid out?

replied that application had been made, but after due inquiry, had not been acceded to.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether his attention had been directed to a case heard before the Resident Magistrate of Kroonstad, where, because the Magistrate knew no English and the Public Prosecutor knew no Dutch, a certain witness by name Joubert was told to leave the witness-box before he had given his evidence; (2) whether the cause of justice has not in consequence suffered; (3) whether he intends to make provision for interpreters in all courts where necessary; and (4) whether he will in future see to it that no unilingual officer is appointed by his department to an office where a knowledge of both languages is required;?

read the reply of the Magistrate, which was inaudible in the Press Gallery. He said he was not satisfied with that answer, because he was satisfied that something had been done which was irregular. He would see not only that article 137 of the South Africa Act was carried out, but that something of that kind would not occur again.

asked the Minister of the Interior whether he does not consider it desirable and in the public interest to increase the circulation of the “Government Gazette” by reducing the charge for subscription, fend, if so, whether he will take the necessary steps to attain that end?

replied that the Government was seriously considering the question, and the question of the reduction of the rate of subscription to the “Union Government Gazette” was being taken into careful consideration.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) Whether the appointment of Mr. Galloway, from another Province, to the post of Surveyor of Telegraphs in the Orange Free State took place on the recommendation of the Civil Service Reorganisation Commission; and (2) whether he does not consider that by making such appointments the chances of promotion of officers in the Province where they are made are reduced, and that officers who are acquainted with the system in vogue in their particular Province should be preferred?

replied that the temporary appointment had been made on the recommendation of the head of the department, and not on the recommendation of the Civil Service Commission.

asked the Minister of the Interior what steps, if any, the Government intend to take to minimise the spread of syphilis amongst the natives of Bechuanaland, Northern Transvaal, and elsewhere, by adopting the cure for that disease recently discovered by Professor Ehrlich, known as “606”?

replied: The Government is still experimenting largely with this remedy, but it is of such a nature that it can only be applied by skilled experts, and we have not yet reached the stage when it can be generally used amongst the native population. In the meantime, however, the Government has been, and is still, taking other measures in order to cope with syphilis amongst natives.

asked what steps, if any, the Government intend to take to give effect to the recommendations contained in the majority report of the Mines Benefit Funds Committee of Inquiry?

replied: The Government have not yet had an opportunity of fully considering the report of the Mines Benefit Funds Committee, and therefore are not now in a position to say what steps will be taken with regard to the committee’s recommendations.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) Whether his attention has been drawn to a statement appearing in the “Cape Times” of the 23rd instant, to the effect that the late Postmaster-General, after visiting all the Provinces, laid a scheme of reorganisation of the Post Office Service before the Government; (2) whether that statement is in accordance with fact; (3) if so, whether the designations and salaries set forth in the “Cape Times” completely reflect the intended posts, and whether the official nomenclature is correctly described; (4) why the senior administrative officers transferred from the Natal and Orange Free State have been omitted; (5) whether it is proposed to submit the scheme to the Public Service Commission; (6) if so, whether the particulars of the scheme were divulged with his consent; and, (7) if not, by whose authority the information was disclosed?

replied to the effect that his attention had been drawn to that statement, which was only partially true. The late Postmaster-General had submitted a reorganisation scheme which was in the hands of the Public Service Commission. The Government had approved of the positions recommended by the late Postmaster-General being temporarily occupied pending the Public Service Commission’s report.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours when the railway line from Welverdiend to Lichtenburg and from Treurfontein to Uitval respectively will be opened for traffic?

replied that the first portion of the line would be opened in May.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether the proposed special rate for the carriage of coal from Breyten Colliery to the Witwatersrand, involving a reduction from the ordinary tariff of 10d. per ton to Germiston and 1s. 5d. to Krugersdorp, is in pursuance of a contract between the colliery owners and the railway administration; and, if so, what are the terms of the contract, and whether he will lay the papers on the table of the House?

said that it was often impossible to answer a question by a categorical yes or no, and in that matter it was rather propter hoc than post hoc, so that, he could not tell his hon. friend. As to whether the tenders should be laid on the table of the House, and the terms of the contract, he was considering it, and at a later date he would say whether he would do so or not.

Is there a, contract?

Yes. You say so in your question.

“In pursuance of a contract.”

Well, doesn’t that mean that there is a contract?

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) When the office of Secretary to the Chief of Police was created; (2) (a) what are the names of the officers who have filled the office, and what were their qualifications for and special claims to same; (b) what is the date of their appointment; (c) how long they have filled the office, and at what rate of pay? (3) (a) Have any of these officers been in the service of any of the Provinces previous to Union; and if so, when, and in what capacities; and (b) was there any break in their service, and, if so, what are the periods?

replied: (1) August 1, 1908, as Secretary of the Commissioner of Police; and continued with the appointment of Chief Commissioner of Police for the Union in 1910; (2) the name of the officer is Inspector H. C. Bredell, and his qualification is that he filled a similar office to the Commissioner of Police under the late Transvaal Government in 1895-99. The salary is £600, with £100, local allowance. (3) This officer was in the service of the Transvaal Province previous to Union, and was inspector of white labour on the C.S.A.R. from March to June, 1908, and Secretary to the Commissioner of Police of the Transvaal since July 1, 1908. There has been no break in his service from March, 1908.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs when the reconstruction of the telephone system at Queenstown, referred to in the Postmaster-General’s letter, No. 37, 573-10, is to be proceeded with: and, if not soon, whether he will direct that the temporary alterations referred to in that letter be effected?

replied that the material for the construction of that system was expected from oversea, shortly. The temporary work, which would be costly, would not be justified.

asked the Minister of Native Affairs: (1) Whether there is any truth in the statements that have appeared in the press to the effect that the planters in Natal are pressing the Government to close portions of Zululand to recruiting for the mines, or alternatively for permission to recruit natives from north of latitude 22 deg.; (2) whether a small batch of boys whose physique was unsuited to the rigours of mine work on the high veld have been sent down to Natal to work as an experiment; and (3) whether, in view of the decision of this House to exclude Asiatics in the interests of the white race, and the refusal of the Government to amend the conditions of coolie labour in Natal in the direction of making them more satisfactory to the Indian Government, he considers it in the best interests of South Africa that the Government should extend the system of importing into the Union helpless human machines who are less intelligent, loss industrious, and less civilised than the Asiatic, under a system which is the nearest approach to slavery that England permits within her dominions?

said that representations had been made to the Government by the sugar planters on the Zululand coast, asking that certain districts might be dosed to labour agents recruiting for the mines, in view of the scarcity of labour. The Government had not been able to accede to the request. Application had been received by one of the Zululand planters for leave to introduce 20 labourers for farm work, and this application had been acceded to, as it was felt that the class of work would be more suitable than work in the mines. (2) He knew of no cases except those that he had referred to. (3) He would be very pleased to answer the hon. member if he would kindly simplify his question. At present it was so full of rhetorical and inaccurate statements that he could not answer it.

asked the Minister of Lands: (1) Whether he has received a request to have the commonage of Embokotwa, in the district of Elliot, surveyed in lots; and, if so (2) what is the reason that a commencement has not been made with this survey?

said the answer to (1) was in the affirmative. (2) Act 41 of 1908, Cape of Good Hope, provided that three-fourths of the allotment holders must petition before the commonage could be sub-divided, and as the petition received did not comply with the provisions of the law (some of the signatories there to not being registered holders) the sub-division could not at present be put in hand.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether there is any truth in the rumour that the Bosluispest Experimental Station in the Orange Free State is to be closed and, if so, why?

replied that the Government were considering the question of the reorganisation of the department, and the question of joining up with other experimental stations, but the matter had not yet been decided.

moved: That the subject matter of the Bill be referred to the Select Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved: That the subject matter of the Bill be referred to the Select Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved: That the subject matter of the Bill be referred to the Select Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the circumstances of the appointment of two Puisne Judges to the Supreme Court of Natal in May last, the committee to have power to take evidence and call for papers, and to consist of Messrs. Currey, Long, Duncan, Wessels, Neser, Brain, and the mover.

seconded.

said he thought the circumstances under which these appointments were made justified a review of the whole proceedings. Apart from generalities, there were certain circumstances that called for special investigation. The Minister of Justice stated that the appointments were in order, but nevertheless, he thought there were circumstances under which these appointments came to be made which called for review. In the last days of the separate existence of the Province of Natal, it became evident to the then Attorney-General of Natal that he was debarred from such an appointment as he might desire to make by the fact that there had been issued a Commission, which filled up the vacancy early in the last month of Natal as a separate entity. The question was raised in the Natal Cabinet as to the inconvenience which arose from the fact of that Commission having been issued, and which rain until Union was consummated. If that Commission were allowed to run, the Government could only make one appointment to the Bench, but they desired to make two appointments. The question was raised in the Cabinet to withdraw the Commission, which had already been issued to Acting-Justice Koch. It was decided to ask Mr. Koch to return the Commission which had been given to him, and under which he was then acting, and a communication was sent to him asking him to comply with that request and to accept another commission for a shorter period. That communication did not reach Mr. Koch until some days, he being on Circuit. It appeared that Mr. Justice Koch was not prepared to return the Commission under which he was then acting, and some delay ensued. In the meantime, it had become very important that some action should be taken by the Natal Government. The Government resolved that this Commission should be withdrawn, and issued another which would expire three or four days before Natal ceased to exist as a separate colony. Therefore, there were two acting Commissions filled in for the same person. Mr. Kooh had then definitely decided that he would not return his original acting Commission. He therefore decided to act on the Commission that he had originally held, and acted so up to the time when Natal was incorporated in the Union. Subsequently to the issue of the original acting Commission, two Commissions were issued to Messrs. Hathorn and Carter, the latter claiming the right of nominating himself for the Bench by reason of his position as Attorney-General. The position was, therefore, that for two vacancies to the Natal Bench, there were actually three appointments. He desired only to see the high, character of the administration of justice maintained. That was his motive in bringing the matter forward. Whatever might be the judgments on the actual appointments of the present occupants of the Bench, it was perfectly clear that if they were not correct and legal and proper some judgments which had been recorded in Natal were themselves illegal and would be required to be given legal force by an Act of Parliament.

said he must say that he did not think he would be doing his duty to the House if he were to give his consent to this motion being adopted. Nor did he think, if he accepted the motion, he would be doing a service to the country. He was very happy that in regard to this matter he was in quite an impartial position. The appointments were made prior to Union, and the present Ministry had nothing to do with them. The gentlemen who had been appointed were to him as good as total strangers. He regretted that the hon. member (Mr. Maydon) had not taken his advice to leave the question, and not to bring it before the House. The reasons for which he tried to dissuade the hon. member not to bring it up in the House were the reasons he would now give for his opposition to this motion. In the first place they were reasons affecting the status of the Bench in Natal itself. As far as that was concerned, he was very sorry that this matter had been raised, because it could not but reflect detrimentally on the personnel of the whole Bench in Natal; for underlying this motion there was undoubtedly the suspicion that something had taken place which should not have taken place, and but for which these appointments would not have been made. That was very regrettable. He wished to assure the House of this: that when this question was brought to his notice—the question of averred irregularities—he immediately did everything in his power to see whether there had been such irregularities. He immediately placed the whole case before three of the most eminent legal authorities in South Africa, and they unanimously advisee=d that there was no irregularity, and that the appointment of these two gentlemen to the Bench was totally regular and valid. Personally he fully agreed with that. His first reason was that they, as a Parliament, should be very careful in doing anything which might cast reflection on the Judges, for he must insist that you could not possibly have anything worse than to have the judiciary under suspicion. (Hear, hear.) If a Select Committee were appointed to inquire into the matter, it could not take the advice of higher legal authorities, than he had He was prepared to give the names of the gentlemen he had consulted, but it was unnecessary. There was another very important reason why the House should not appoint la Select Committee to inquire into the matter. The question was one which was settled by a Ministry which was now no more. If the Union Parliament appointed a Select Committee to go into the acts of a Natal Ministry to-morrow, it would be asked to go into the acts of a Ministry in the Cape, and the day after similar committees from the Transvaal or Free State. (Hear, hear.) If that were done a feeling of Provincial antagonism would be aroused. (Hear, hear.) Fortunately in this case the mover was a Natal member, but that did not affect the principle that they should be very careful to respect the acts and actions of their predecessors in the various Parliaments. They must respect others, right or wrong, unless they were going to raise a feeling of discontent and resentment throughout South Africa, by having the acts of the various Provinces inquired into by Select Committees. As far as the Free State was concerned, there, was no question which he had the least fear of being inquired into, and he hoped that would be felt by all from every other Province. Then a number of people in Natal would feel aggrieved by the motion, which he hoped would be withdrawn. There was another point—that of mere economy, for every Select Committee that was appointed meant the expenditure of a few hundred pounds. What would they get out of the inquiry? Absolutely nothing; and it was his duty to dissuade the House from giving its support to that motion. There was no irregularity in appointing two Judges to two vacant posts simply because a third person was temporarily acting as a Judge.

said that he would ask the House to consider whether the Minister had answered the plea that he had put forward. It seemed to him that he had drawn a very red herring across the trail. It was impossible to persuade him (Mr. Maydon) to believe that this thing was quite ordinary and commonplace, and quite proper. The question of whether this might create had blood in various parts of the Union was beside the mark. Surely the foundations of Union were too deeply laid to be disturbed by a matter of this kind. It was lamentable to hear a learned gentleman of the parts of the Minister urging expense as a reason why this inquiry should not be granted. It it were going to cost half a million of money it was not too much to pay to put right a wrong if a wrong had been done. It was all in favour of the Judge whose appointment had been impugned—Mr. Justice Carter—that an inquiry should be held if the result of such inquiry would be to uphold has appointment. It was all in favour of the Union that this inquiry should be pursued with the utmost fearlessness, and with the intention of finding out all the rights and wrongs of it, and pronouncing with the same unswerving sense of justice as if the matter were to go before a jury. In the circumstances he hoped that the House would decide contrary to the advice which had been given by the Minister.

The question was then put, and the Noes were declared to have it.

called for ta division, which was taken with the following result:

The amendments are more or less formal, and I might point out that the Government has taken the whole of the time of private members.

The amendments were agreed to.

moved that the Additional Expenditure Estimates for the ten months ending March 31, 1911, which he laid on the table that afternoon, be referred to the Public Accounts Committee.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved that the petition from H. Harris and 422 others, ratepayers in the Prieska electoral division, praying for the extension of the railway from Plrieska to Kenhardt and Gordonia, presented to the House on March 9, be referred to the Government for consideration.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved that inasmuch as it is not in the best interests of the Union that Crown lands in Swaziland should be sold out of hand and without competition to private individuals, the Government be requested to approach His Majesty’s Government with a view to preventing that being done in the future. The hon. member dealt at some length with the past and present position in Swaziland. It consisted, he said, of several concessions. Under Lord Selborne’s administration one-third of each was taken, to be added on to native locations. In many cases that process of subdivision rendered concessions valueless. The owners had not protested too strongly, but it did seem to them that it was unfair that the Imperial Government were now selling pieces to absentee owners. Lord Lovat had purchased about 50,000 acres, and had another 70,000 acres under option. Yet, at the time the pieces were cut off, it was distinctly stated that, if any Crown lands were sold, the owners of the concessions concerned would have the preference. The sale in question was against the best interests of the country itself, and the Union, as well as a violation of the contracts made.

said that many cattle farmers had leased portions of Swaziland for a certain number of years. Those concessions had been ratified by a Commission, consisting of representatives of the Imperial Government, the Transvaal Government, and the Swazi King. One concession was in respect of the whole of Swaziland, and all minor concessions reverted to that in the long run. He supported the previous speaker regarding the wrongs of concessionaires. Lawyers had stated that native kings could not grant lands, but no white man held land in South Africa which had not, at some time or another, been given, away by Kafir chiefs. He supported the motion.

said that the burghers who had rights in Swaziland had been disgracefully treated. They had received 99 years’ leases, but their ground had been taken away from them for the purpose of being sold by the Imperial Government, Yet, they could not manage without these lands, and the Government should put a stop to further sales.

asked whether they would have the opinion of the Government on the matter, as they had heard one side of the matter only so far.

shook his head.

The motion was agreed to without further discussion.

moved that the petition from A. Amunsen, of Beaconsfield, praying for compensation in respect of the loss of the farm Minziamaniana, Bechuanaland, which, owing to the delimitation of the boundaries between the Transvaal and Bechuanaland in 1885, fell into Transvaal territory, and, further, for compensation in respect of an erf at Taungs, or for other relief, presented to the House on the 13th. inst., be referred to the Government for consideration.

seconded.

said that the petition was before the Cape Parliament, and was definitely refused. Unless some new facts were put before the Government, he did not think they were prepared to sit as a Court of Appeal against a decision of the Cape Parliament.

said he knew of no facts beyond those stated in the petition. He was sure the Government would do justice to the petitioner if he made out a case.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the petition from John Koonen, spraying that he may be admitted to practise as a doctor of medicine within the Union, presented to the House on the 8th February, 1911, be referred to the Government for consideration.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved that the petition from E. Harvey, praying to be relieved from the payment of a certain fine on transfer duty on landed property which she is desirous of having registered in her name, or for other relief, presented to the House on the 7th inst., be referred to the Government for consideration.

seconded,

Agreed to.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved that the House go into committee of Ways and Means to consider the following motion: “That for the purpose of extending throughout the Union the duties at present levied on cigarettes in the Province of the Cape of Good Hope, there shall be charged, levied, land collected throughout the Union for the benefit of the Consolidated Revenue Fund, subject to such conditions as may be laid down in any law passed during the present session of Parliament the duties herein set forth, that is to say: (a) On all cigarettes manufactured in the Union, whether made from tobacco grown or produced therein, or from tobacco imported therein, or from a mixture of Union grown and imported to-baccos, an Excise duty for every one-half ounce net weight or fraction thereof— one half-penny; (b) on all cigarettes imported into the Union and delivered for consumption therein a duty (over and above the duty payable under the Customs laws) for every one-half ounce net weight or fraction thereof—one halfpenny; and there shall be further levied in respect of all premises in the Union wherein cigarettes are manufactured a Licence duty of one pound.”

seconded.

said he believed that the majority of the people of the country wore in favour of this tax being imposed. The object was to make the tax imposed in the Province of the Cape in 1909 uniform throughout the Union. That tax imposed a duty of ½d. per half-ounce on all cigarettes manufactured in the Province of the Cape. It came into operation in November, 1909, and the revenue from that date until November, 1910, amounted to £55,000 from the Province of the Cape. He was advised if this tax was extended throughout the Union, an additional sum of £65,000 would be collected, or £100,000 altogether. In the Cape the tax was imposed upon the retailers, but his intention was to impose it upon, the manufacturers. Since the announcement of the intention of the Government to impose this tax throughout the Union, the same opposition had been revived, and the same argument used that the tax would have the effect of diminishing the revenue from imported tobacco. In reply to that, he had certain figures taken from the Customs Department. People in the trade maintained that the loss in revenue from imported tobacco for a period of nine months amounted to £51,500, and in support of that they point to the fact that from January to December in the year before the imposition of the tax some 814,000 1b. of tobacco leaf were imported, as against 471,000 lb. during the corresponding period when the tax was imposed. The argument was if the tax were not imposed, the importation of tobacco leaf would go up to its former limit. Although these figures were correct, the Customs authorities informed him that the proper figures to take were those of consumption. These were 694,000 lb, as against 612,000, representing a loss of £12,353 only; but against that they must set the amount of revenue from the tax. That was one side of the story. There was another important aspect, and that was that the imposition of this tax would have a discriminating effect upon tobacco, and would tend to diminish the importation of the article from oversea In that case he considered if it had the effect of increasing the use of their own, product, then he thought that the tax should commend itself to ordinary members, in spite of the fact that there was a diminution, in the importation A further and peculiar objection had been made recently by the manufacturers. They did not admit that the tax would eventually fall on the consumer, but on the manufacturer. They said also to the growers that the tax would not fall upon the manufacturers, but upon the growers. He thought that these arguments were fallacious, because he believed the tax would eventually fall upon the consumer. (Hear, hear.)

said he believed that the House would agree that cigarettes should be taxed. The question, however, was how should they tax them? There was a great deal to be said upon this subject, and he wanted to impress upon the House what he considered the best course to adopt in, this difficult matter. The Industries Commission was sitting at that very moment, and he would suggest that the Hon. the Treasurer leave the matter over until the Commission had reported. He ventured to suggest that there was nothing more detrimental to the growth of a country than, interference with the business of manufacturers. He did not object to a cigarette tax, and thought it was a pity that cigarette smoking was becoming so common. (Hear, hear.) If people must smoke, let them, smoke a pipe. As to the opposition to the tax, naturally manufacturers were the people who opposed it. The manufacturers were entitled to insist that the tax should be imposed in such a way as to cause them the minimum of loss and; inconvenience. If the tax were imposed in the proposed form the temptation would be to use less of the better class South African deaf. Then people in the Transvaal would not accept coppers, and consequently the manufacturers who had special machines for making cigarette boxes of a certain kind would suffer loss, as they would have to alter the size of their boxes. Farmers should be encouraged to grow good leaf tobacco, and this the Transvaal manufacturers had been doing, paying nearly 3s. a pound for the very finest leaf, the ordinary tobacco not being suitable for making cigarettes from. He represented that he did not object to the tax, but the method by which it was proposed to impose it. There was no sound reason why they should not wait for the report of the Industries Commission.

No.

said it was a great mistake to continually be interfering with the tariff and taxes. Then the Transvaal would not have coppers.

Legal tender.

It may be legal tender, but the people to whom you offer coppers in the Transvaal would not enter your shop again. (Laughter.)

said he thought it was common ground with all persons who wished well by the country that cigarettes should be taxed. If there were pernicious things in this world they were cigarettes. (Laughter.)

I said so.

Then why object? It affords me great pleasure to give my cordial support, to the Treasurer on this occasion. (Laughter.) If he acts up to the better self which I believe underlies him, I daresay I shall always support him. (Laughter.) Continuing, Mr. Merriman said it was a very strange thing about the cigarette tax that if it were put on the manufacturers they said no; if it were put on to the retailers—as was done in the Cape—they said, “Put it on to the manufacturer, and then it will be all right.” But so long as it was put on to somebody, and the people who smoked these things had to pay, then he (Mr. Merriman) was perfectly satisfied. It was a very proper way of raising revenue. The cigarette was a pernicious article of luxury; no one was better—and most people were worse—from smoking it. It would be a very good thing for this country if the result of the tax lessened the importation of tobacco, for then we could grow more Turkish tobacco here, and thus give employment to hundreds of people. They would then have the great advantage of being able to do something to help forward the poor, deserving district of Stellenbosch, where they could grow the finest Turkish tobacco in South Africa, and as good as any in the world. In every way the cigarette tax was a laudable and a good one, and he thought the Minister of Finance was doing well by putting it on. The hon. member for Troyeville (Mr. Quinn) and he had been crying out all along that if they had any fault to find with Mr. Hull, it was that he had not done more to unify the taxes, but when the poor chap—(laughter)—-came along and tried to unify the taxes, the first person to object to it was Mr. Quinn. Do let them unite and give their common support to the Treasurer when he did good— (laughter)—but when he did badly, don’t let their feelings of friendship prevent them pointing out the error of his ways. (Renewed laughter.)

opposed the motion. He advocated a heavy tax on imported cigarettes. His constituency had produced 3½ million lb. of tobacco during the past year. Many factories had come into being. The industry had made large strides during recent years, and prices had improved because farmers went in for planting cigarette tobacco. From the time of sowing until delivery to the manufacturer, this crop required nine months’ constant supervision, and unless they made 6d. a lb. it did not pay. The Government had assisted them by sending experts, who showed the farmers how to grow cigarette tobacco, but by taxing cigarettes they would undo their own work. The tax would work out at 1s. 10d. per lb. of tobacco, whereas the topmost price realised by farmers was 1s. 3d. They might talk about “articles of luxury,” but they should discriminate between imports and local production. What would hon. members say if he moved for a tax on feathers? Feathers were an article of luxury just as much as cigarettes. He moved to delete sub-section (a) of the motion in order to obviate too great a fall in the price of the leaf, which would unduly prejudice the interests of the planters.

said he quite agreed that the cigarette tax was a good thing, but he did not agree with the way in which it was proposed to levy this tax. He was afraid that the Treasurer would find that there was a good deal of truth in what the hon. member for Troyeville said, viz., that this tax would result in manufacturers giving an inferior article. That was the form in which they would recoup themselves, especially in the Transvaal. What he thought would be much better would be if, in the Transvaal, where a smaller coin than 3d. was not commonly used, packets of cigarettes should be sold of sufficient size to involve a stamp of 3d. Then, they would be able to collect the tax from the consumer, and they would not have any risk of the manufacturer doing what he (Mr. Phillips) feared he would do now—giving an inferior article. He did not see how this was going to encourage the growth of Turkish tobacco. It would rather have the effect of the manufacturer using more of the inferior quality and making up the tax in that way. If they put a tax on any locally-grown product which they could not collect immediately from the consumer, the effect was not going to be to improve the article, but to deteriorate it. He quite agreed that cigarette smoking was pernicious—(hear, hear)—perhaps because he was not addicted to it himself, but he was afraid he must plead guilty at the same time to smoking cigars, which were probably just as bad. (Laughter.) If they talked about taxing the pernicious habits of mankind, there were a great many things in this world that would have to be taxed besides cigarettes. He, therefore, threw out this suggestion for the consideration of the Treasurer. The question was whether he would not do a much greater service if the size of the packets were increased. They were going to force the manufacturer either to put his wares in larger packets, or they were going to induce him, as he believed they would, to supply an inferior article. He could quite understand the feelings of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Merriman) in regard to this tax. The imposition of the tax in this colony was his own child. From the standpoint of equalisation of taxation, the imposition of this tax was surely a minor matter, and one that did not come within the category of getting uniform taxation throughout the Union. (Hear, hear.) He had been inundated with, telegrams asking him to oppose the tax, and amongst them was one, not from a retail dealer of cigarettes or a manufacturer, but from the Chamber of Commerce of Johannesburg, who considered that the tax would dislocate the cigarette industry and trade.

said that he did not see why cigarette tobacco should be taxed, and not (pipe or cigar tobacco— they all went up in smoke. The tax ultimately fell on the producer, was his view of the matter. Tobacco-growers in the Western Province had asked him to speak against this proposal, and It was not right, when these people had started a new industry, that they should be taxed as soon as that industry was attended with some measure of success. It had been the same story in regard to the wine industry. If a tobacco tax must be imposed, let it be imposed on all tobacco, and not on a particular kind. Whatever they did, let them encourage the growing of the South African article.

said that he did not think there was any possibility of getting the Minister of Finance to withdraw the cigarette tax, which already existed in the Cape Province. Under those circumstances, as one who represented a large tobacco-growing district in the Cape Province, he welcomed the proposal of the Minister of Finance, because he considered it would be a most unfair thing to put a tax on a product of the soil in the Province of the Cape of Good Hope, and not have the same tax operating in the adjoining Provinces.

Don’t be provincial.

It is because I am not provincial that I think a tax of this sort should apply over the whole of the Union. Proceeding, he said that he had representations from his constituents with regard to the withdrawal of the cigarette tax in the Cape Province, but he was bound to say that the reason they advocated the withdrawal was because it only operated in the Cape Province, but he would say that, after some consideration of the question, he believed the tax, which was imposed by his right hon. friend (Mr. Merriman), had done a great deal to stimulate the cultivation of tobacco in the country, and had done a great deal to substitute that tobacco for the imparted article. He hoped the Government would see that every effort was made; to send experts round the country to show the people the advantage of introducing the very best seed, and of adopting the best means of curing the tobacco.

said it seemed to him that the tobacco companies had no friends in the House, because everyone who had addressed the House had spoken of them with derision. He considered that the tobacco manufacturers had just as much right to have their case presented to the House as anybody else. He was one of those who questioned the wisdom, of the cigarette tax when it was first introduced in the Cape, on the ground that Union was approaching, and this influential industry had no guarantee whatever that, when Union came, this tax, if kept on, would apply in its then form all over the Union. The force of that objection was shown by the present proposals, which were of a different form to those adopted by the Cape. He thought there was a great deal in the contention that the industry should have some security that this tax was going to remain in its present form. No one knew what the recommendations of the Industries Commission would be, and they might now pass these proposals only soon to alter them in accordance with the report of that Commission. This industry had grown to be a large one in this country, and it had given great encouragement to the growing of tobacco in South Africa. It seemed to him that certain members were saying in one breath that they should encourage the growing of Turkish tobacco in South Africa, and with the next breath they were declaring for a stamp duty on the product. They could not have it both ways. It seemed to him that if tobacco were to be singled out as a source of revenue, they could not single out one tobacco article; they must have a tariff scientifically arranged. He thought those engaged in this industry were entitled to have their voice heard in regard to these proposals.

said he feared that if these proposals went through it would take a long time before the Union could expect tobacco to complete with that grown in other countries, especially now that Rhodesia was going ahead in the production of tobacco. Was this a tax imposed for revenue purposes, or was it intended to check what some considered to be the pernicious habit of cigarette smoking? If they put on a big tax they would find people making their own cigarettes. He thought this was not the time to impose this tax; it would surely do injury to the country. Bet the Government rather increase the tax on imported cigarettes and imported tobacco. The time might come when it would be wise to impose a tax on all South African tobacco and cigarettes, but that time was not now, when they ’Were still in the process of building up the industry.

said that there was no such thing in this country as a tobacco manufacturers’ ring. It had been said that the cigarette tax had not stopped the manufacture of cigarettes in the Cape. Well, why was that? It was because the manufacturers in the Cape had been able to sell their cigarettes in the other colonies where there was no tax, and so they were able to counterbalance the serious loss in the Cape. They had been able to make up this loss on sales by the increased sales in other parts of the Union. He could not see the logic of the tax, because they left the Natal cigar entirely alone. What possible inducement was there for a tobacco farmer to grow the superior article? The farmer was the man who was going to suffer, because the manufacturer would have to pay the old price. He would just like to give an illustration of how hardly this tax would fall. Farmers were going to get less than the tax produced. The tax would work out, in his opinion, at le. 10d. per lb. The farmer got 1s. 3d. per lb., that so far was the average price for cigarette tobacco, but the Treasurer was not going to get 1s. 4d. per lb., but 1s. 10d. In fact, he was going to get £18,500, whilst the farmer was only going to get £12,500. Therefore, it was perfectly dear that the farmer was going to pay this tax. With, regard to what the right hon. the member for Victoria West had said about the manufacturers, he (Mr. Alexander) would point out that the manufacturers had done a great deal to encourage the growing of tobacco in the Frenchhoek district. This industry, although young, was a growing industry, and was doing very well, and the effect of the tax would be to kill it altogether. Continuing, the hon. member pointed out that there was a capital of something like £1,000,000 invested in the industry, and the wages bill amounted to £60,000 a year. Mention had been made of the pernicious habit of cigarette smoking, but the tax would not stop that. Anyone who wanted could buy his own papers, and make his own cigarettes, and need not pay any duty. ‘Someone had said that is was less pernicious for anyone to smoke cigarettes that he had made himself, but he (Mr. Alexander) thought that statement was much too subtle for him. (Laughter.) He thought it would have been much better if the Treasurer had (waited until the report of the Industries Commission had been issued. This very question of the taxation of cigarettes was before the Commission. In regard to (a), he admitted that the Treasurer had given some concession to cigarettes manufactured in the country, but the concession was nothing like equal to the taxation which was being placed on the industry. This tax would hit a number of allied industries. He was afraid that if this taxation were insisted upon, the cigarette manufactured in South Africa would have to go to the wall.

said that all that talk about the tobacco industry being in danger if that tax was imposed on cigarettes, and that the farmers would be injured, was all nonsense; on the contrary, he thought that the tax would be an advantage to them; while making the tax uniform throughout the Union was a step in the right direction. They should not be frightened by talk emanating from the manufacturers. The consumer would pay, in the long run.

stated that he had received a telegram from certain of his constituents asking him to speak against the imposition of that tax. The wine farmers had been told to go in for something else, and now that the tobacco industry was being started they found that cigarettes were being taxed. He must protest against these burdens being placed on local industries. If they began with that sort of thing, where was it going to end? It would be ostrich feathers and sheep next. They should at least tax other forms of tobacco as well.

asked who really paid that tax? He said that it was the smoker, who had had to pay a penny more, while a halfpenny tax had been imposed. He thought it was proper that such a tax as the Minister of Finance had proposed should be imposed, because it appeared that the industry could bear it, and because cigarettes were articles of luxury.

said that a point which, to his mind, had not been touched upon during the debate was the iniquity or injustice of putting a tax on a Colonial industry. In the case of cigarettes, there was no doubt about it that they had built up in this country during the last few years an industry which was a growing industry, and an industry which was paying a huge amount in wages. The Government had encouraged the industry by sending out experts through the country at an expenditure of £10,000 to £15,000, to show the farmers how to grow the best kind of cigarette leaf. In 1905 they encouraged, by their taxation of the imported article, the manufacturers to come to this country and establish an industry here. There was no ring or trust in the tobacco trade here. When tobacco was offered for sale, there was open competition. They had an industry built up by their fiscal policy of manufacturers right through the country making cigarettes. He might say that he opposed this tax when it was introduced by the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Merriman) in the Cape Parliament on the same basis; but the reason given by the then Treasurer was that it was an emergency tax. Yesterday the Treasurer was quite optimistic about his Budget, and said he anticipated that his Estimates would be realised, yet he brought forward, in the early days of Union, a tax which would probably not be necessary. They had an Industries Commission sitting at the present time which had taken the evidence of manufacturers and of farmers in connection with tobacco growing. What would be the result of this taxation if it were put on? The Treasurer was not going to get what he expected from the tax. He (Dr. Hewat) was positive of that. The sale of cigarettes, after the duty was put on, fell off in the Cape Colony. They would find the same thing happen in all the four Provinces. They would be putting a premium on the growth of an inferior leaf. It was all very well saying that the tax would only be ½d. per half-ounce; but it had been proved that the consumer would not pay. They were going to put this, rightly or wrongly, on the farmer, because the manufacturer, instead of putting good leaf into his cigarette, was going to make up the tax by using an inferior leaf, which would be against the interests of the farmers. He would also pay a lower wage to his employees. Instead of employing white boys and girls, he would employ coloured boys and girls at lower wages. (Cries of dissent.) By passing this legislation they were going to throw the manufacturers out of gear. It was a wrong principle to single out the cigarette industry, and allow all others to go free. Why shouldn’t the Government tax all tobacco?

said he understood that the report of the Industries Commission would not be issued until September, and he considered that the House was encroaching upon the rights of the Commission in introducing this taxation. He pointed out that 1,000 whites were employed in the industry, the wages bill representing £60,000 per annum, and the amount of revenue which the Minister of Finance expected from the tax was not worth running the risk of hurting such a growing industry. It was absurd for members to say that the tax was being introduced to stop the pernicious habit of smoking cigarettes. If that were the object, then let them make the tax prohibitive. He moved the adjournment of the debate.

seconded.

The motion for the adjournment was negatived.

The motion to go into Committee of Ways and Means was agreed to, and set down for tomorrow.