from P. J. Roos, (Civil Servant of Orange Free State under Republican Government.

from J. B. Burnett, wagon painter, South African Railways.

brought up the report of the Committee of the whole House on the Estimates of Expenditure and Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure for the year ending March 31, 19122.

drew attention to an item on page 251, and moved a verbal amendment. He said that the item was “visual refractory telescope.” This was ridiculous, and should read “visual refractive telescope.”

seconded.

Agreed to.

The committee’s amendments were a greed to.

appointed the Minister of Finance and Mr. Van Heerden a committee to draft the Appropriation Bill, in accordance with the Estimates and Supplementary Estimates as adopted.

brought up the report of the committee as appointed, submitting a Bill.

who brought up the report of the Select Committee on the Pomeroy Commonage, moved that it be printed, and considered on Friday.

seconded.

Agreed to.

as Chairman, brought up the third report of the Select Committee on Waste Lands, recommending the grants, etc., of land as follows: Lease to R. G. Smith, of farm “Driefontein,” Cradock; grant to Rest Camp, Tsolo; grant of title to C. H. Reeves, at Qwaninga; reservation for Agricultural Institution, at Mqanduli; reservation of foreshore at “Yzerfontein,” Malmesbury; lease to H. C. Jenkins at Baleni’s Location, Bizana; grant of foreshore to Town Council, Sea Point; resale of erven, Port Nolloth; grant for cemetery, Gordon’s Bay; reservation for church and school purposes, Dube; grant for Church at Tamacha; lease to W. Rowland, at mouth of Ndumbi River; reservation at Langebaan Outspan, Saldanha Bay; reservation for commonage at Elliotdale; transfer of lease to H. Ellefsen, at Schier Eiland; transfer of lease to H. Ellefsen, at Plettenberg Bay; letting of Government lands and buildings under section six of Act No. 26 of 1891 (Cape); exchange of land at “Grootfontein,” Laingsburg; reservation at Herold’s Bay, George; amendment of conditions of title at Fingo locations, Albany; lease to P. Toplis of Beacon Islet, Plettenberg Bay; lease of whaling and fishing sites, Walfish Bay; sale of lands reserved for Buchuberg Irrigation Scheme; grants of garden lots, Butterworth, Nqamakwe and Tsome; grant for tennis courts at ‘Keimoes; amendment of title to “Empotulu,” Glen Grey; lease to Schreuder Brothers at “Yzerfontein,” Malmesbury; assignment of commonages at Embokotwa and Qubenxa; lease to Mossel Bay Whaling Co. at Mossel Bay; grant for school purposes on Upper Kabousie Commonage; grant for school purposes at Upington; and sale of old Residency buildings at Mossel Bay.

The committee further recommended that the attention of the Railway Department be directed, in the case of properties put up for lease, to the necessity for advertising and giving the fullest publicity in both the English and Dutch languages in local newspapers, as well as in newspapers circulating in such other parts of the Union as may be necessary; and that in regard to the leasing of land by the Railway Department the approval of Parliament be obtained at its first session after any such leases have been entered into.

Having considered the petition of A. Aadnesen, of Durban, the committee report that the prayer of the petition does not fall within the scope of the inquiry.

It was agreed that the report be considered in Committee of the whole House on Friday.

moved: That the schedule of officers and employees in the Railway Department who are on the Fixed Establishment, and whom it is proposed to retire in terms of section 35, Act 32 of 1895 (Cape), owing to the amalgamation of railways and consequent reorganisation of the staff, laid on the table on the 13th instant, be referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants and Gratuities.

seconded.

Agreed to.

Revised Estimates of Expenditure from Loan Funds to be defrayed from 31st May, 1910, to 31st. March, 1912.

moved: That the order of the House, dated the 6th April, referring the Estimates of Expenditure from Loan Funds (first print) to the Committee of Supply, be discharged, and that those Estimates be withdrawn.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved: That the Estimates of Expenditure from Loan Funds (second print) just laid upon the table of the House, be referred to Committee of Supply, with an instruction that the committee consider them in lieu of the Estimates (first print) withdrawn.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved: That on the consideration of the Railways and Harbours Service Bill in Committee of the Whole House, Standing Order No. 403, having reference to the amendments made in private Bills by Select Committees, shall apply.

seconded.

Agreed to.

May I ask the Minister of Railways, or any member of the Government, whether he will make some statement with regard to the wreck of the steamer near Cape Point, as I understand there is a large number of passengers on board?

Yes; a steamer was wrecked beyond Cape Point. The latest information I have got I got about 12 o’clock, and I asked that any further information should be sent to the House, so that I can give it. A tug was sent out, and got into communication with the ship. Most of the passengers were taken off, but unfortunately one of the boats capsized, and one or two of the passengers were drowned, including, I believe, a woman and child.

I have just rung up the Port Captain, and I have been informed that H.M.S. Forte is coming to Cape Town with 400 passengers, that 200 have been landed at Simon’s Town, and that 40 have been landed by boats. All the passengers are safely off the ship with the exception, unfortunately, of the few that were drowned.

said that he had given notice to the Minister of Finance of his intention to move an amendment in the second schedule under the head of “ Lease or agreement of lease.” When the matter was discussed in committee, horn, members were informed that the stamps on leases were very much higher in England than those provided under this Bill. Well, that might be so for a period of 100 years or more, but here the stamps were fixed up to a period of twenty years. They were also told that it was very difficult to frame a scale to suit the requirements of revenue. He, however, had prepared a scale, and would move the following amendment: On page 32, in the second schedule, litem 15, to omit all the words from “if” in line 2, down to “thereof” in line 9, and to omit all the amounts of duty from “5s.” to “15s.” and to substitute the following: “For every £100 or portion thereof, 5 years and not exceeding 6 years, 5s. 6d.; 6 years and not exceeding 7 years, 6s.; 7 years and not exceeding 8 years, 6s. 6d.; 8 years and not exceeding 9 years, 7s.; 9 years and not exceeding 10 years, 7s. 6d.; 10 years and not exceeding 12 years, 8s.; 12 years and not exceeding 14 years, 8s. 6d.; 14 years and not exceeding 16 years, 9s.; 16 years and not exceeding 18 years, 9s. 6d.; 18 years and not exceeding 20 years, 10s.; 20 years and not exceeding 21 years, 11s.; 21 years and not exceeding 22 years, 12s.; 22 years and not exceeding 23 years, 13s.; 23 years and not exceeding 25 years, 14s.; 25 and over, 15s.” He thought that that scale would be much fairer to the public than the one provided in the schedule. He hoped the Minister would accept his amendment.

seconded the amendment.

The amendment was negatived, and the second schedule was adopted.

The Bill was set down for third reading to-morrow.

formally moved the second reading of the Bill.

Is not the Minister going to tell us something about it? (Laughter.)

You can discuss it in committee.

The motion was agreed to.

The Bill was read a second time, and set down for committee stage to-morrow.

said that they were now dealing with social legislation of a most serious nature, and the matter, therefore, must be gone into with the utmost care. (Hear, hear.) He welcomed the measure because, on the whole, it was on right lines. No reply had been made to the well-reasoned criticism of the Bill made by the hon. member for Germiston (Mr. Chaplin); the Minister of the Interior had not deigned to give them any reply at all. The Minister had left the matter, so far as the House was concerned, for six weeks, and then—without consulting any of the persons interested—he suddenly launched in this Draconian Bill. Mr. Phillips asked what was the certificate the medical man was called upon to give under clause 2? In order to show the immense difficulty there was in connection with the issue of these certificates, he would quote from the report of the Departmental Committee on Compensation for Industrial Diseases, which was presented to the British Parliament in 1907. The committee, in its report, stated: “A large part of our inquiry has been directed to the investigation of the diseases variously known as ‘ miners’ phthisis,’ ‘stonemasons’ phthisis,’ ‘potters’ rot,’ ‘grinders’ rot,’ and the like. To the difficult problem presented by these diseases we have given close and anxious consideration. The pulmonary disease manifests itself in three kinds of forms—as ordinary tuberculous phthisis, acute or chronic; as ‘ fibroid phthisis,’ and as a mixed form when a tuberculous process is engrafted sooner or later upon the fibroid. Fibroid phthisis is always a slow disease.” The report, having described how dust set up inflammation, impaired the tissues, which, therefore, were likely to harbour poisonous bacilli, proceeded: “To consider first, fibroid phthisis: the features of the disease, as induced by the inhalation of dust, have been described by many medical authors, attested by the witnesses who have appeared before us, and verified by the medical members of the committee on our visits to ganister mines and grinding shops. The first symptom is a cough which insidiously, and for a while almost imperceptibly, becomes habitual. At first in the morning only, it gradually becomes more frequent during the day, and expectoration, nominal at the beginning, becomes more marked, though not profuse, until the latter stages of the disease. Leaving out of account the more rapid progress of the disease in tin and gold miners, these symptoms of a negative phase of purely local damage may last for years—ten or fifteen years, or even more—without advancing to such a degree as to throw the workman out of employment or even to cause him serious inconvenience. At some period, however, rarely less than ten years, and frequently more than twenty, of continuous employment, in a like imperceptible manner the breathing gets short, and the patient finds himself less and less capable of exertion. Yet, even when the cough and dyspnoea have reached a considerable degree, there are no signs of fever, as is the case with pulmonary tuberculosis; the flesh does not fall, and the muscles retain their strength and volume. Thus even at a period when the malady is fully established, the general health may be but little impaired, and the patient may not be compelled to cease work. Herein fibroid phthisis presents a well-marked difference from pulmonary tuberculosis; and even if, as we have said, the disease becomes complicated with tubercle, yet the rate of progress may be determined rather by the character of the primary than of the secondary disease, though usually the supervention of tubercle hastens the sufferer into a more rapid consumption.”

On a point of order, is there anything before this committee? (Cries of “Yes.”) It has not been moved to delete this clause.

This matter is of the utmost importance, and I propose to show the House that as this clause stands it is utterly impossible for medical men to give this certificate. I will not take up the time of the House more than I am compelled. Continuing, Mr. Phillips said the report of the Departmental Committee stated: “Diagnosis of the mixed cases, unless the infection by tuberole be very early and predominant, may present no little difficulty even to an expert, who has before him the history of the individual, for the long period of chronic change, even in comparatively advanced stages, still may present the signs and symptoms of slow obliteration rather than of ulceration of the lungs. A still greater difficulty of diagnosis, which in early stages may never get beyond surmise, is between fibroid phthisis of other origin and chronic bronchitis, with ‘ asthma ’ or, to use the technical term, emphysema. Fibrosis from other causes is, however, generally unilateral—one lung only being affected, whereas dust attacks both lungs impartially.” Having given an account of the symptoms, the report proceeded: “To this account of the symptoms we may add that if in an early stage of fibroid phthisis the workman leaves the dusty employment for work in agriculture, or in other occupation in air free from irritating particles, the disease may be practically arrested; that is, although the part affected may proceed to obliteration, the disease would not extend to other parts of the lung, and the portion destroyed would be negligible as a factor to health and capacity.” That, observed Mr. Phillips, showed that our natives who took a rest in between their periods of work, were not troubled in the same way as white people were. The report proceeded: “Ordinary tuberculous phthisie cannot, of course, be regarded as a disease specific to any employment. It is widely prevalent throughout the population. We consider, however, that fibroid phthisis, in its later stages, and when the history of the case is known, can be clinically distinguished from tuberculous phthisis.” The definition of certificate in the Bill says nothing as to stage of the disease.

The hon. member is now speaking on the principle of the Bill.

said the whole success of the Bill depended on the certificate. As a medical man he certainly saw very great difficulties in the way of a practical working of the Bill. First of all diagnosis in the early stages of miners’ phthisis was almost impracticable. What was to prevent miners coming from all parts of the world with the irritant already in their lungs, as the result of which miners’ phthisis might develop after a few years’ work on the Rand? It would be absolutely impossible for a doctor to say that the cause of the disease developed during the year or two, say, in which the man had been at work in the Rand mines. Dr. Hewat pointed out that the matter lent itself to abuse, and that people might claim compensation under this Bill who had not contracted the disease on the mines. Miners’ phthisis was often latent. It was looked upon by the medical profession as a curable disease. There was no doubt that a difficulty arose when they put the whole onus of proof on the medical profession. He felt that there should be some provision made further than the medical man’s certificate. He suggested the appointment of a Board to consider cases in which a certificate had been given by a medical man.

said he wondered what the hon. member would have said if there had been no certificate. Who was to give the certificate except the medical man? He (Mr. Merriman) should move an amendment later on to say that if anybody were aggrieved, either the workman or the employer, by the giving or withholding of a certificate, then the Minister should have the power of referring the matter to a medical referee, and the decision of the medical referee should be final.

said that one of the difficulties in regard to this Bill seemed to him to be this, that it professed to be a Bill to regulate the compensation to workers who contracted miners’ phthisis. When it proceeded to say what that compensation was, they found that there was no basis on which the compensation was to be assessed. If a man could get a certificate that he had miners’ phthisis, whether it had affected his earning capacity or mot, whether it was in its early stages or whether it was the last gasp, he got £400. It seemed to him that that was a wrong principle. If this were a Compensation Bill, it seemed to him that they ought to follow the ordinary principles in Workman’s Compensation Bills elsewhere, and base the compensation on the loss which the men suffered owing to the fact that he was unable to earn his living through the effects of the disease. He should, therefore, move after the word “phthisis” in line 10 to add the following words: “To an extent which (a) renders him incapable, whether temporarily or permanently, of earning full wages at the work on which he was employed, or (b) causes him to be prohibited from working underground under the provisions of section 15 of this Act.” When they came to the clause defining compensation he should move that the compensation, subject to a certain maximum, should be based upon the loss sustained by the man by his inability to earn his living.

said that the position of the hon. member for Yeoville was not clear to him. He had said that he thought the object of the Bill was laudable, and that something ought to be done with this grave state of affairs, and then proceeded to read a report, the effect of which was that it was really impossible to say what was miners’ phthisis. Even if he adopted the course which the hon. member suggested, viz., that there should be no legislation, and that they should have a fund administered by a Board, it would be necessary that that Board should proceed by medical certificates. The hon. member had read extracts from a report presented to the British Government some years ago, and tried to show that they were trying to solve what was insoluble. His hon. friend knew that these extracts were really not applicable to such cases on the Witwatersrand, where fibrosis was a perfectly well-known disease. He had listened to medical hon. members who came from the Rand, and what their opinion was. Dr. MacNeillie had said that it was a good Bill, and that he would vote for it; and Dr. MACAULAY, who had had many years of experience in dealing with miners’ phthisis, said that he did not like the latter part of the first Bill, but asked him to pass the first part. None of them had criticised the Bill on the ground that it was dealing with a disease which was not perfectly well known. Of course, he knew that it was a disease which presented many varieties, but Dr. Hewat would admit that he had not a very wide acquaintance with the subject matter of that Bill, although he had a wide acquaintance with other medical subjects. No reputable medical practitioner on the Rand would have any real difficulty in coming to a conclusion that a man was suffering from the disease. The first thing that had to be done was that a man who considered he was suffering from the disease must get a certificate from a reputable medical man, who would be on the list. That certificate was sent in to the Board, which would ask another medical practitioner to go into the case; and if these two agreed, the case was passed. If the two did not agree, the Bill provided for a medical referee, whose decision would be final. The case would then go to the Board, consisting of four men; and it was the intention also to have a medical man on the Board, so that there would have to be a diagnosis of four medical men before the case was finally passed as one of silicosis fibrosis. He did not think that the amendment of Mr. Duncan helped him much; he did not think the hon. member knew much about fibrosis.

Nothing at all.

That is what I admire so much about the hon. member—he states the truth. (Laughter.) My hon. friend does not know that the peculiarity of fibrosis is just this: that a man may be fatally diseased and his earning capacity is not impaired; he may go on for years, and then may suddenly “go off” in a week. I say this to show my hon. friend that his amendment does not meet the case at all. If a man has fibrosis to any extent, he must leave underground work. If you compensate him and turn him from his work, the man may recover and live a long life. That is where the native labourers score so heavily; they do not work continuously on the mines, but return to their kraals, so that, although they may suffer from tuberculosis, they don’t suffer very much from phthisis. If you have a scale, as I think my hon. friend intends, a man will not get compensation at the early stages, but will continue in harness in order to get a large amount of compensation until he is dead.

said that what their objection was, was that the measure was an ill-considered one; and they recognised that it was a very grave problem they had to deal with, and they had no desire to shirk it. General Smuts had said that fibrosis in England was unlike that on the Rand. That was not the case. It was more severe on the Rand, but the, disease and the course of the disease was precisely the same as in Cornwall, It was impossible to say when a man got fibrosis. He did not say the problem was insoluble, but he said that they had not taken any evidence on the subject yet on the Rand, and that the right thing was to have a Board, whose duty it would be to examine every man working underground on the Rand, and take the history of ah the cases which appeared before it. In the meantime, temporary assistance could be given to cases of miners’ phthisis. Of course, if the employers began to examine individual men, they would have trouble. Surely they could do in this country what had been done in Australia—or find out how many cases there were, and the history of the different cases?

said he was one of those who entirely sympathised with the Minister in his efforts to deal effectively with this subject of miners’ phthisis. When the Minister brought in his first Bill, hon. members on the Opposition side might have appeared to have hindered him, but the effect had been that the various suggestions they had made had been amply justified by the Bill that was brought before them now. In regard to clause 9, he would like to show the initial difficulty that would occur in considering this Bill. The first time he came to a suggested amendment he could not find that amendment. There was a difficulty in having to take in the committee stage of the Bill a second reading debate. It was much more difficult than dealing with a new Bill, because one had repeatedly to compare it with the old Bill. Now, he wished to refer to the matter of granting certificates. One found that a certificate was only to he issued by a class of medical men who had received a special diploma from the Minister in order to enable them to grant the certificate. Now, the Minister had charged some of them with not being as expert in regard to miners’ phthisis as the medical gentlemen on the Rand. He did not see that there was any ground under the Act for this initial proceeding, because if a certificate was given by any medical man who was on the register, as a preliminary measure, there were still experts to fall back upon who were provided for under the Act. Therefore, he did not see why in the initial stages a certificate should not be given by a medical man who was registered as such. He would be glad of an explanation on that point. Then, again, they were faced with the difficulty that the Minister had excluded those gentlemen who were experts by saying that no certificate should be granted by any mine doctors or doctors to insurance companies The men who naturally would have the greatest experience of this disease were the men who were debarred from giving that experience a chance. It seemed to him to be a most complicated state of affairs. It certainly seemed strange that a man who was used to dealing with any disease in this country should be excluded from giving a certificate dealing with that disease. By the clause he had referred to, the experts all seemed to be precluded from giving a certificate. It was quite an unknown thing in this country to select a list of men who shall have the right to speak with regard to a particular disease. That was one of the difficulties with which one would be faced all through in connection with this Bill. The practical way he saw of dealing with the Bill was for the Minister to accept the offer made for this session, that the Government find a certain amount of money, and the mines a certain amount, and deal with the immediate trouble, and have the whole matter thrashed out next session If there were one Bill more than another which should have been referred to a Select Committee, it was this Bill with all its technicalities. He appealed to the Minister to withdraw the Bill, and accept the offer made from that side of the House.

said he did not pose as an expert on this matter, but he had listened very carefully to the debate, and to what had been said in regard to workmen’s compensation. He thought it had to be admitted that the disease was a matter of degree, and a man might be slightly or seriously affected by it. He considered that the most logical thing to do was to have an inspection of all miners at once, and then give compensation to those affected. That was the only position they could take up if they were going to pursue the proper course. Now they were leaving it to the men to come forward themselves, and leaving it then to the doctor to say if a man was to have compensation or not. That would not work. To his mind, the time that a man should become entitled to compensation could be measured, and the time he had the disease could be measured, and a decision come to as to whether the disease meant partial or total disablement, and in his opinion the certificate should be based on that.

suggested that progress be reported in order that the Bill might be printed, with the amendments embodied in the text.

said the hon. member’s suggestion was not in accordance with the Standing Orders.

said that he based his amendment upon the principle that compensation should be paid according to the damage sustained. The Bill provided that a lump sum of £400 should be given to men, whether partially or totally incapacitated, and he said that compensation awarded on that principle was altogether wrong. It was an ordinary principle of Workmen’s Compensation Acts that compensation should be paid according to the damage sustained, and his amendment provided for compensation being paid when a man was incapable for either temporarily or permanently doing the work in which he was formerly engaged.

said that the question of damage was one for the Court. He would move later an amendment which would open up the whole question of partial or total disablement, and the compensation to be paid. In regard to the certificates, there did not seem to be very much wrong with them.

said that, having embarked upon this matter, it was necessary to pursue it, and to pass a measure which would protect the men from any such hardship as had been proposed in regard to a medical examination.

said he rather favoured the amendment of the hon. member for Fordsburg, who said chat the certificate should certify that a man was incapacitated from pursuing his normal work, and that on that basis compensation should be paid. But the Minister of Mines did not agree with that. He said it was not a question as to whether or not a man was incapacitated; he said that if a man had got silicosis he might one day get worse, and therefore he should get the full amount of compensation at once. The Minister was getting into a difficult position. Did he say that every man who had silicosis, whether slightly or severely, should be compensated at once, and should not go underground again? He put nothing in the Bill to prevent a man who had phthisis from going underground after he had been compensated. Now, he wanted to know from the Minister: Did he consider that it was the duty of the employer to refuse to allow that man to go underground or not?

said that with regard to the point raised by the hon. member for Barkly, he was not casting a slur upon the medical men. He thought that there should be a selected list of medical men. As for the amendment of the hon. member for Fordsburg, all he could say was that it was impracticable, and if it were accepted the great majority of really genuine cases of miners’ phthisis would not be awarded compensation, because a man was not incapacitated from doing underground work by miners’ phthisis. A man really became incapacitated when the ordinary tubercular disease supervened. Ordinary miners’ phthisis did not, as a rule, incapacitate a man, and therefore, if the amendment were accepted, they would place a Law upon the Statute-book which would be a dead letter. No doctor would be able to certify that a sufferer had miners’ phthisis to such an extent that he was incapacitated from doing underground work The point raised by the hon. member for Germiston was an important one, but he did not think the Legislature should bind the men finally. When a man became a danger to others, then the State should step in and make it a penal offence for him to work underground. Once they had a person suffering from consumption he became a danger, and for the preservation of life they ought not to have these people going below. In case of ordinary fibrosis he did not think they should go as far as that.

said he could not follow the Minister. If tuberculosis, which they all knew was a dangerous germ disease, was a dangerous thing underground—because men had miners’ phthisis, and miners’ phthisis could not be discovered in its early Stages—if tuberculosis was a disease that ought not to be allowed underground, then the men ought to be examined. By having these ambiguous clauses in the Bill, they were going to have trouble between employer and employee. They had got to examine the men. He thought the State ought to take the onus of that. They should have a medical examination by a Royal Commission got out here by the Government. Be wanted to know the problem that they had to deal with, and they did not know it to-day. The Royal Commission should examine every man underground. There were only 10,000. They would then know how much tuberculosis they had got, and how much fibrosis.

How many years will that take?

It can be done easily in a year. It can be done by a number of people. Mr. Phillips went on to urge that they should take the money they had on the Estimates, and relieve immediate distress through a competent Board, and deal with the whole problem in the only logical way by making a proper investigation. He believed they were blundering into legislation in this matter, the far-reaching effect of which none of them would discover until the mischief had been done. This Bill, as it stood, did not meet the object in view. His opinion was that, as they went on from clause to clause, they would find themselves in greater and greater difficulties. It was impossible to determine the disease in the early stages Were they going to encourage men to come to the Board for compensation to which they were not entitled?

said that all he sought to do in his amendment was to discriminate between a man who was laid off work temporarily because of the disease, and a man who was at such a stage that he ought not to go below again, in which case he should get compensation on the basis of not being able to work again.

said that the amendment which had been placed on the paper would enable the Native Affairs Department to deal with the case of a native labourer. This was a simpler procedure, and would not put the native in the hands of the lawyers.

said that there still remained the question of a certificate, because somebody would have to determine whether the native had the disease. He moved in line 8, after “miner” to insert “or native labourer.”

urged that the time had arrived when they ought to know from the Minister whether the term “miner” would include native labourers, as far as compensation was concerned.

said that the Minister was setting up different classes of medical men to give certificates. The protection of the State was that the man who gave the certificate was on the Register, and was allowed to practise in South Africa. Now, because a paltry amount of money, up to £400 or £500, which could not be compared in the scale of importance with human, life—(Mr. W. B. MADELEY (Springs): “Hear, hear)— was to be given, they were putting a certain number of men on that list, and the Minister must see that it was unfair to differentiate like that. Higher fees would be charged if these men were put on the list proposed by the Minister, because if a man had special qualifications he would charge higher fees. He moved, in line 7, after “by a” to insert “registered” and after “practitioner” to omit all the words down to “mine” in line 8.

hoped that the Minister would accept both amendments. ‘Personally, he could not see any reason for discriminating between different medical men. Supposing a man came to Cape Town and developed miners’ phthisis there. Who was to give the certificate— unless the Minister provided for such medical men in every town? The hon. member impressed on the danger of allowing the examination to wait until too late.

hoped that the Minister would not pooh-pooh the amendment of Mr. Schreiner,

said that he had no intention of making the term “miner” apply to a native labourer, but he simply wished to assist the Bill by putting in “native labourer.”

said that the difficulty was about procedure. Of course, there had to be a medical certificate also in the case of native labourers. The procedure in regard to natives was different. The European miner had to make his claim or application in writing, supported by a medical certificate; but he was afraid that if that had to be done in the case of natives, not a single native labourer would get compensation. He thought that it was a much better course to apply some simpler procedure in the case of native labourers, and to send them all to the Native Affairs Department, which would be given power to have a medical examination made. He wanted to keep the natives out of the hands of the lawyers; and the compensation being so small, he thought the simple procedure he proposed was best. He did not know that hon. members who belonged to the medical profession took these references to the profession as a slur, as Dr. Watkins and Dr. Hewat continued to taunt him with. This was a case where they had to protect the mining industry employers and the Government. This was not a case of an ordinary medical certificate given anyhow, but one on which the payment of a large sum of money depended, and his experience was that you did not want such payments to depend on the medical certificate of any medical practitioner. On the Rand, in the past, there had been certain doctors who issued certificates to Chinese, enabling them to obtain opium. These doctors might create a new practice by the issue of certificates stating that miners were suffering from silicosis. The amendment of the hon. member for Fordsburg (Mr. Duncan) would narrow the scope of the Bill very largely.

did not think it right for the Minister to stigmatise a whole profession because of the actions of a few.

stated that certain doctors on the Rand had made a practice of selling opium certificates to the Chinese. Under this Bill, these doctors would have a new calling, and they would certify every case as one of miners’ phthisis. It would be a gross abuse of their duty if Parliament allowed such people to give certificates on which the mining industry and the taxpayers would have to pay out very large sums of money.

If doctors do wrong, they should be struck off the roll.

Suppose a man has silicosis, and he continues to work underground and he develops tuberculosis, can he get compensation a second time? He finishes when he gets his first compensation?

Yes.

suggested the insertion of “preliminary” before “certificate.” Any doctor should be allowed to give a preliminary certificate.

did not see how that would help. If insurance companies were to accept medical certificates from all and sundry, what would become of them?

did not think the certificate of any medical man ought to be regarded as absolute, but after obtaining it, the man should present himself to a Board of Examiners.

Why can’t we be satisfied with the clause as it stands? I entirely agree with the Minister, and know what the value of a certificate is.

The amendment of Dr. Watkins to insert “registered” was negatived, and Mr. Schreiner withdrew his amendment.

The omission of the word “nine” was agreed to, and “sixteen” inserted.

The amendment in line 8 by the Minister of Mines was agreed to.

wished the Minister to make it clear at what stage was the certificate to be granted to a man? The reason he asked was because, after a certificate was given and compensation paid, the man was not debarred from going on with his work. Having silicosis, he was predisposed to get tuberculosis, and the fact that there was no provision to stop him from going underground simply meant that they were piling up the chances for the spread of the dis ease. He took the view that they ought to have a much greater inquiry, and deal with the present deserving cases. The point of view of these suffering men had not been realised in this connection. What earthly chance was there for the men to get employment when they were throwing such a large proportion of compensation upon the employers? They would intinctively defend themselves, and it was inevitable that they would find these men, and try to keep them out, and they would lose their employment. He wanted to know what was the object, of the certificate; how was it going to work out; at what stage was it going to be given; and what was going to prevent the spread of the disease, and protect the unfortunate men who had got it? As things stood at present, they were only giving the men £400 to go and get a worse disease.

said he did not see the use of continuing discussion on the question of the certificate, because it did not touch the really vital issues of the Bill.

Mr. Duncan’s amendment was negatived.

moved to add at the end of the clause, “or any person registered as such, as the Minister may approve.” He spoke of the difficult position of men who were living out of the country, and who were entitled to claim compensation, and desired to enable them to be examined oversea,

said he could not accept the amendment.

said he thought these men ought to be saved the necessity of a voyage to this country. Such a voyage might be fatal to them.

said he did not think the hon. member understood the machinery of the Bill. The man who claimed compensation would, as far as he could see, have to be in the country. There were certain exceptions which might be raised to his claim.

took exception to a statement made by the Minister in regard to the knowledge of employers as to whether men who had been in their employ, and who had gone to England, were suffering from the disease.

said he was thinking of the case of a man who had gone back to Cornwall because of the state of his health.

said that the [employers did not know the condition of their white employees’ health. The latter had their own medical men.

pointed out that even if these men were fit to come out, their compensation would be reduced by the amount of their expenses. He hoped the Minister would meet cases of this kind, and allow a certificate to be given by a respectable medical practitioner oversea.

said that there were practical difficulties against claims being prosecuted by claimants from oversea. There might be hard cases, but, there was a danger of opening the door to a wrong procedure.

The amendment was negatived.

The amendments in lines 12 to 14, and the new definition “fund” were agreed to.

On the definition of “miners,”

moved the deletion of the words limiting the operations of the measure to men earning over £50 per month.

May I point out that this is in conflict with all other Acts, or the Workman’s Compensation Act? People for whom these things are provided in other countries are poor, indigent people, but here you put it up to £600 a year.

said that the men would be called upon to contribute, and surely it was right that they should get compensation. It was the natural outcome of a contributory scheme.

said that that definition controlled the rest of the Bill, and if a man above £600 were excluded, he could not be called upon to contribute.

said that you must draw the line somewhere. He did not see why they should set themselves against the stream of all other countries. The line was drawn ridiculously high.

said that the clause was certainly very wide without any limitation at all. He did think it to be absurd to include engineers, mine captains, and the like, but he thought it would be reasonable to extend the term of six months during which the wages were calculated. There were cases of those who drew high wages, and low wages at other times, or no wages at all.

said that he thought the Minister’s amendment should be carried, because it was a case of compensation; and in that case it did not matter what a man earned. Mining engineers were paid, he thought, for their qualifications, not for the risks they nan in connection with miners’ phthisis.

agreed with Mr. Chaplin that the definition was very wide, and included such men as pipe fitters and the like. The idea was to compensate men who developed phthisis in the course of their business. The whole matter required more consideration.

said that his hon. friend forgot that the Bill provided that a man must have worked underground for two years. What difference did it make whether a man was a rock driller or not, as long as he developed miners’ phthisis?

suggested insertion of the words “resident within the Union.”

said that was unnecessary. There was a lot to be said for the objection urged by Mr. Merriman, and therefore he would move that twelve months be substituted for six months.

suggested that the period should be two years.

The amendment was adopted.

The amendment in lines 20 to 23, proposed by the Minister of Mines, was negatived.

moved the omission of “fibrosis or,”

accepted this amendment, which was agreed to.

proposed, the following definition: “Dependants shall mean such members of the miner’s family as are wholly or in part dependent upon the miner at the time of the granting of the certificate of the disease or the death of the miner, as the case may be, on whose behalf any claim is made,”

The amendment was agreed to.

Progress was reported, and leave obtained to sit again to-morrow.

said he noticed there was a large saving on the maintenence of way and works, and there was some doubt as to whether the permanent way was being kept up to the full standard. The saving gave the impression that in the excitement to save money, the permanent way! would not be kept up to full standard.

complained of the state of the station-master’s dwelling-house and the waiting-rooms at a station in his constituency. He said the stationmaster’s dwelling was like a pill box, whilst the other buildings were very small. The station he referred to was right in the middle of the veld, and I increased waiting-room accommodation was necessary. He hoped the Minister of Railways would have inquiries made as to the need for more accommodation.

said he would like to draw she attention of the Minister to the state of things at the Railway Stores, in New-market-street, Cape Town. At present a great deal of dissatisfaction reigned, because for months past the clerks and office boys had had to work every other Sunday and every other Saturday night, and also late at night during the week, without receiving any remuneration for the overtime. The Government had informed them that they were not going to receive any extra pay. To put it mildly, these officials were being sweated. The men did not object to do overtime occasionally without extra pay, but when it became a regular thing they objected strenuously. They thought the matter should be in quired into by the Minister. Then another point to which he had to draw attention, was in connection with the state of things in the Stores’ printing office. Very good work was carried on there, work quite as good as that done by any other firm in town, and yet the pay the officials received was much less than that paid by private firms.

asked if the white men who had been working at 3s. 4d. per day had had their wages raised? He would also like to know if the attention of the Minister had been directed to the wages paid in Australia for the upkeep of the permanent way. In Queensland the men received 8s. per day, and yet the cost of the upkeep per mile was less than here.

said he hoped the Minister would satisfy himself that the sleepers which were now being put down on the main lines would be capable of standing the strain of the heavy traffic now passing over them.

said he would like the Minister to give the committee some indication of how he proposed to deal with the sum of £307,000 under item 19 depreciation of permanent way and works).

said that the Estimates were presented in rather an embarrassing manner. For instance, he found under head I, a lump sum covering the wages and salaries of the engineers and other professional staffs, and the details appeared on page 56. The result was that one could not deal with any particular individual. When the time came he would ask the Minister to explain how he arrived at the amount of £1,159,000, which he proposed to hand over to the Minister of Finance. Proceeding, the hon. member read extracts from letters which he had received. The first letter was in regard to the fixed establishment, and it came from Uitenhage. Under the old Cape system railway men, after serving ten years, were entitled to be put on the pension staff. Men who had not completed ten years’ service were not quite sure that they carried with them into Union that right or not. Supposing men had put in six years’ service under the Cape Government, would they be able to complete the other four years and earn the right to be placed on the fixed establishment? The second letter had reference to South African boys, who were apprenticed in the railways. According to the letter, after boys had served their apprenticeship they were not taken on the fixed establishment or taken into the Service. They were told they could not be taken into the Service unless they broke their service and re-entered. They had to leave the Service and re-enter it and in that case they were taken on at full pay. The third letter dealt with the case of a widow of a railway man. She was in charge of a small station and her remuneration was 3s. per day during week days and 1s. 6d. on Sundays. From that, however, the department deducted £1 5s. 8d. per month for rent and sanitary fees. Last month, after deducting rent and sanitary fees, she received £2 12s. 4d. He thought the Minister and the committee would agree that that was not adequate remuneration. His opinion was that the woman was not being treated as a human being.

asked the Minister to make a statement with regard to what he proposed to do with the men who suffered disabilities in consequence of having taken part in the strike in Natal some years ago. He would also like to know if the Minister had made inquiries with regard to the advisability of constructing a foot-bridge at South Coast Junction?

said that he wanted to make an appeal on behalf of the men in the railway service, who got the miserable pittance of 3s. a day. He knew half a dozen white men who were only receiving 3s. a day. He thought, when the railways were making the profits they were doing they should have a little more consideration for the men who helped to make those profits.

said that, in regard to the point raised by the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, ever since he (Mr. Sauer) had been connected with the railways in the Cape and the Union, whatever else they had starved, they said that they must not starve the permanent way. That must be kept in perfect order. The permanent way, he believed, was in very good order now. However, his attention having been drawn to it, he would make inquiries. In reference to what the hon. member for Tembuland had said in regard to stations, it was a curious thing that people were never happy until they got a railway, or thought they would not be, and then they complained more than ever before. He might tell his hon. friend that, until the unfortunate East Coast fever came into his constituency, although they built a railway there, and they were told that it would pay very well, they all got their goods up in the bullock-wagon, and would not use the railway. (Hear, hear, and A VOICE: “Shame.”) He promised to look into the matter mentioned by the hon. member. He would also inquire into the matter brought under his notice by the hon. member for the Castle Division. He added that he did not know a single service in the Union that was so popular as the railways. Everybody wanted to get into it, and yet sometimes, if they listened to the speeches, they might imagine that it was a dreadful service to be in. In regard to the question of the 3s. 4d., raised by the hon. member for Jeppe, it was a great mistake to suppose that the majority of white men, even other than those employed in the railway workshops, received 3s. 4d. A small number only got that pay at the present time. In the Transvaal—he supposed the hon. member was referring to the Transvaal—they only got that pay for a short period. (When a man was taken on he got 3s. 4d. If, after a month’s service, his work was satisfactory, he got an increase. A considerable increase had been made to the men who received less than 5s. As to the point raised by the hon. member for Boksburg, they generally preferred wooden sleepers on the railway, but a certain number of iron sleepers were ordered, and put into lines over which the traffic was not very great. It was thought by the engineers that, economically, it was wise to employ iron sleepers on those roads. The hon. member for Durban, Greyville, had asked him in regard to the sum of £307,000. That was a contribution towards the depreciation fund to replace rails and sleepers on the lines. The hon. member for Port Elizabeth had referred to a number of matters. He would go into these if the hon. member handed him the letter from which he quoted. There was one question, however, of importance to the railway men, to which he would refer. In the Cape Colony railway service a man who had been employed permanently for ten years, and had got a certificate of efficiency, was entitled to get on the fixed establishment. Well, that was still the law to-day, and under the Superannuation Bill before the House, the hon. member would see that he (Mr. Sauer) did not propose to take away the existing rights of any class of the community, and they would not be any worse off after the Bill became law than they were prior to Union in that respect. As to the matter of the interesting widow, he was not aware that they had a widow as stationmaster. He could not say whether her salary was sufficient or not, but he would give the case his special attention. (A laugh.) Another of the members for Durban (Mr. Robinson) had asked with regard to what was done with a number of men who went on strike in Natal, and were not reinstated. He had gone into the question, and he found that a large number of men who went on strike, the great majority, had been re-employed by the Natal Government. There were, speaking from memory, 37 to 39 who had not been re-employed.

said that his question related rather to the removal of disabilities, not taking back into employment. He had heard that a certain number of men who were hack had lest privileges.

said that he did not think that that question had been previously brought to his notice. He would make-inquiries, and give the hon. gentleman an answer in a day or two. As to the matter of the footbridge at Durban, he would look into that. The hon. member for Woodstock had referred to a certain number of white men, Who got 3s. a day. He knew that such was the case. He did not think there were many in that position. He would say that this question of wages was being looked to in connection with the regrading. Speaking generally, he wanted to run the railways as economically as possible. It was the only way in which they could make a success to-day. His object had been to increase the number of white men employed upon the railways, and it might be necessary to increase the rate, but he was prepared to do that.

drew the Minister’s attention to the iron sleepers on the line from Volkrust to Balfour, and asked why these had been removed? Again, he would like to refer the Minister to pages 13 and 17 of the Estimates, and explain why the amount of depreciation was short by £454,000? The point that he wished to arrive at was: had this depreciation been arrived at on a scientific basis, or simply by rule of thumb? H-e maintained that the depreciation amount should be worked out on a scientific basis, hut the betterment amount was a different thing altogether.

said he was informed that the iron sleepers were still there. They were designed by the Engineer-in-Chief.

They have been taken out.

They are still there, I am told. Continuing, the Minister said with regard to the question of depreciation, the hon. member asked why this deficiency in the depreciation account was shown—-well, it was simply shown because he wanted to be candid with the House. The hon. member asked if this depreciation was figured out upon a scientific basis. They knew the basis which the C.S.A.R. adopted. Buildings did not depreciate so quickly as rolling-stock, and they did not want the same percentage. This depreciation account depended to a large extent upon the revenue. If they had a large surplus, they spent more in depreciation, and to a large extent that policy obtained now. If it were not for other considerations, he would certainly have asked for more towards this vote. He hoped that ample provision would be made for all services that had to be provided for by the railway, because he knew how the railway suffered on this account. Certainly they ought to set aside an ample sum every year towards depreciation, and be hoped it would be the last time that they would have occasion to call attention to this very important matter.

suggested that in the Minister’s future statements more information should be forthcoming regarding how much had been written off buildings, rolling stock, workshops, etc., showing also each capital account upon which the percentages had been taken. The hon. member referred to the Mowbray crossing, where the traffic was as great as any he knew, and hoped the Minister would make some provision for a bridge.

hoped that the Minister would give a table each year showing the percentages for depreciation, because they ought to know what should be written off, so that they would know if the Railway Department were keeping these depreciation accounts up to the standard. It was perfectly useless to deal with these matters of depreciation if the department were to give way to the exigencies of the Treasury. Let them know what the depreciation ought to be, even although they could not pay it.

hoped the Minister would consider the question of making investigations with a view to ascertaining the dangerous spots on the railways, and of altering had curves and so on, in order to avert the possibility of accidents.

said that he quite agreed that there should be a scientific basis of calculation in regard to depreciation, but as to betterment, it was quite impossible to lay down any scientific value of betterment. Betterment was solely what could be afforded out of revenue towards capital expenditure.

said that betterment was on an entirely different footing to depreciation. Betterment was a question of how much they could afford) out of their pocket towards capital expenditure. Depreciation could be calculated on a fixed basis, and the amount of the contribution arrived at by such calculation should be kept up.

quite agreed with the last two speakers as to the distinction between betterment and depreciation. No definite rule as to depreciation had been adopted on the Union Railways yet. A certain principle had been laid down on the Central South African Railways, but that had not always been strictly adhered to. That principle was that in regard to permanent way material, telegraphs and telephones, bridges, signals and sundries, the depreciation was calculated at 3 per cent.; in respect of brick and stone buildings the allowance for depreciation was 1½ per cent.; for wood and iron buildings it was 5 per cent.; for sanitary plant, 15 per cent.; and for certain machinery, 10 per cent. He quite agreed with Sir George Farrar that it was very necessary to have the depreciation allowance fully kept up. With regard to the case of the widow mentioned by Sir E. Walton, he would give that matter his special attention, and would see that the lady was treated quite fairly. As to the position of the apprentices on the railway, he thought it was wise to encourage young fellows to enter the Service in this way They were not always re-employed, after their term of apprenticeship, because some of them went into other services, but in reference to such of these as were reemployed on the railway, naturally they would not at first draw the maximum wage. They would begin at the ordinary wage paid to the artisan when he first entered the Service, and would go up in the scale from that point. In reference to a question asked concerning the transport of live-stock, he might say that there had been a conference called by the South African Railways, at which the Agricultural Department and the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals were represented, and they were satisfied with the arrangements made. Attention was being paid to dangerous curves.

said that with regard to what Mr. Sauer had said about half the freight being refunded in case of cattle being transported in times of drought, the people who sent their cattle were generally poor; and why could they not be charged the half-rate in the first instance, instead of being charged full rate, and then getting a refund of 50 per cent?

brought up the question of railway carriage on fish, the rates having been increased in some cases to the extent of 100 per cent. The fishing industry was as much a South African industry as agriculture was.

said that as there was no sinking fund, there should be some fixed principle regarding betterment.

No.

Whoever said ‘(No” doesn’t understand the question.

asked for lower rates in connection with cattle carried for slaughtering purposes,

said that one of the provisions of the Act of Union was that the interests of agriculture were to be fostered by means of the railway rates. The hon. member said that the charge for returned empties on the railway was so high that the small farmers could not make the profit that the large farmers could, because the former sent up their fruit in hoses, which had to be returned. In regard to vats, the rates on wood on the railway were such that it was cheaper to send barrels from Cape Town to Paarl than it was to send the wood. Tariffs of that nature led to oversea importation instead of promoting local industries as they should do. The hon. member also drew attention to the high railway rates on seed and manure. The fares in connection with the agricultural shows were, he understood, one and a quarter times single fare, and it was of the utmost importance, in order to foster agriculture, that these shows should be well attended, and therefore that the railway fares should be as low as possible.

replying to Mr. Runciman, said that the rates on fish carried short distances had been increased. For long distances, however, they had not been increased. He found that the increase in the rates for short distances was considerable, and he would bring the matter to the notice of the Board. The latter would no doubt do something towards encouraging this very desirable industry. As to the rates on live-stock, he had taken the trouble to look up the rates charged in other parts, and had found that the rates in this country were the lowest in the world. As to the question of rates on fruit, raised by the hon. member for Paarl (Dr. De Jager), he wished to say that although the rates had been increased, they were extraordinarily low. He promised to look into the matter of rates on vats.

The vote was agreed to.

said that there was a very large increase in the figures for the use of machinery and power, the amount being £42,115, as compared with £22,299 for the ten months ended March 31 last. He would like an explanation as to this enormous increase. Then he noticed, under the heading of “indirect expenses,” two items of superintendence and wages. The superintendence under this head seemed to bear an extraordinary over-relation to the item of wages. Was not, he asked, the superintendence excessive?

drew attention to a point raised by the Auditor-General in his report as to whether the rolling-stock had been kept up to the mark.

pointed out that there had been a considerable block in the goods traffic at the harbour at East London, and asked whether the situation had been dealt with?

mentioned the grass-burning in the Transvaal caused by locomotive sparks, and asked whether it was not possible to attach some device to the engines to prevent this da in ag e?

desired information regarding the present position of the engine-driver when the Gaika Loop accident occurred. He had been led to believe that this man would not suffer in any way, but his constituents had informed him that this was not the case.

drew attention to the “Mallet” engines. He desired to know if this type proved successful? It was found that certain gradients in Natal had suffered very considerably, and it was said that this was due to these heavy engines.

said he had also heard that this type of engine was not satisfactory.

said he had made inquiries some time ago, and the report he had received was that they were satisfactory. Up to the present he had received no complaints, but would make further inquiries. With regard to the query about the block of traffic at East London, he had received information about that, and had communicated with the General Manager, and the block had been removed satisfactorily. This block, he believed, arose entirely from the fact that there was a great pressure of work, and they had not sufficient rolling-stock to cope with it. He did not think, however, that they should keep sufficient rolling-stock for an emergency that only occurred two or three days in the year. That would not be good policy. It was quite possible, however, with the present expansion of traffic, that he might have to ask the House for more rolling-stock. With regard to the hon. member’s (Sir Bisset Berry’s) query, the engine-driver referred to would not be employed again on the railways as an engine-driver, but would be given other work to do.

said he understood that the Minister was going to apply a certain amount of money for the purchase of rolling-stock in connection with the loans for railways. He hoped that when the House met next session, proper accounts would be prepared, showing every truck and every engine in the service, so that they would have some opportunity of seeing whether the 13½ millions at which the rolling-stock appeared in the books were a fair valuation or not. He would also like to know whether the experiment of running motor vehicles had been successful.

said he quite agreed that there should be a valuation of the rolling-stock. That valuation was now being made, and would, he hoped, be completed a considerable time before the next session. With reference to motor-vehicles, there had been some difficulty owing to the right type of engine not having been used, but he hoped that would be satisfactorily overcome.

The vote was agreed to.

referred to the system on the C.S.A.R. of paying engine-drivers per trip. In the Cape and Natal, the drivers were paid for the time they were on the footplate, and there was, therefore, no inducement to them to make up time by travelling at dangerous speeds. On the C.S.A.R. the trains were scheduled for a certain trip, and the drivers were not paid for more than the time scheduled for such trip, excepting, perhaps, as a matter of grace. That was a direct inducement to make up time, and to take risks which might result in accidents. He hoped that the system would be done away with. He thought that the men ought to be paid for the number of hours they were on the foot-plate. There was another iniquitous system in regard to the payment of overtime which the Minister had condemned. An engine-driver in the Transvaal was paid 8s. a day, with 4s. a day as local allowance, but if he worked overtime he was paid only at the rate of 8s. a day. In the Cape, however, an engine-driver was paid time and a quarter for working overtime, so that even with the lower wages in the Cape the men here were better off than were those in the North. The latter system should not be allowed. Then the trip system was a direct incentive to men to drive at an excessive speed. It was really a sweating system, for under it it paid the administration to work the men excessive hours. The Government should set an example to private employers, who dare not carry: out such principles as Government did.

suggested a reduction of £5,374 in the vote of £595,374 for coal and wood. The hon. member referred to the contract with the Breyten Collieries, and said that information had not been given to the House with regard to that contract which it should have got. The Minister had given an evasive reply, and it seemed to him (the speaker) that there was more in the matter than met the eye.

complained of the absence of conductors on the arrival of trains at Smaldeel, so that passengers were not able to obtain proper seats. There were also complaints with regard to the booking or reservation of seats.

said he desired to associate himself with Sir George Farrar’s remarks. He asked that a stop, should be put to the trip system. The matter of piece-work also wanted to be looked into; it really amounted in some cases to a “try on.”

said he supported what had been said about the trip and piece-work systems. A great deal was to be said for a proper system of piecework, but it was a system which was capable of great abuse Theoretically, a great deal was also to he said in regard to the trip system. It seemed to him that the system required very careful consideration. In fact, it was a question whether it should not be abandoned. It was the cause of much discontent amongst the men, who were not ordinarily given to making complaints, and he had had cases where the system worked with extreme hardship. He supported what the hon. member for Middelburg (Mr. Du Toit) had said. The question was one of some importance. What, he had previously complained about in regard to the question of coal rates was not that a particularly low rate was given to distant collieries in order to bring them to the markets, but that a special rate was given a special company under a special contract. Now he wanted to know whether it was a fact that the Minister got coal from this colliery at the rate of 3s. 8d. per ton in exchange for low railway rates, On a previous occasion he had asked the Minister to lay the contract on the table, and he had promised to consider the matter. Well, he had not laid the contract on the table, and he supposed he was still considering the question. (Laughter.) The Minister had said that he was threatened by a combine, and that he must protect himself against it by encouraging little independent collieries which were nobly trying to maintain an independent existence. But did he know that this colliery to which he gave a special rate was just as much in the hands of a combine as any other colliery? It was owned by a company which was known as the Victoria Falls Power Company, or at any rate by those interested in it. The principle he contended for was that a colliery should not be given a special rate by the Government in exchange for some special treatment from it. He wanted to know whether the Minister justified this thing, or whether he would promise to bring it to an end. Another thing he wanted to know was when the Administration was going to bring the coal rates in the Transvaal down to those prevailing in other parts of the Union? In Natal, for instance, coal was carried at a very considerably lower rate than in the Transvaal, and he wanted to know when there was going to be some attempt made at the equalisation of these rates,

spoke of the way in which passengers were treated on the mail trains, and the compulsory separation of male and female passengers, who were placed in separate coaches, although some were travelling together. He criticised the manner in which luggage was knocked about at Cape Town and Somerset Strand—he specially mentioned those places because he had recently seen how luggage was treated at those stations.

wished to have some information with regard to the report on Dordrecht coal.

also complained of the way in which luggage was knocked about. When one spoke to these porters, he said, about the matter, one generally received a cheeky reply. He trusted a stop would be put to that.

said that as to the matter of luggage the matter would be investigated. The report on the Dordrecht coal would soon be ready, and he hoped it would be a good one, and that the coal would prove to be of good quality. As to what Mr. Du Toit had said, he did not object to the contract being tabled. He hoped the hon. member would not be so suspicious about the Minister. It was said—he did not say it was true—that the man who had himself been behind the door was the one who was suspicious of others. (Laughter.)

Is that a Commission sitting on railway matters?

It is a Commission connected with railway matters; it is a departmental Commission. He went on to refer to the system in force in the Transvaal as to overtime, and said that the men there, if they worked overtime, were paid in proportion to their wages, not including the allowance. The whole question of overtime was, he remarked, a very difficult one, and they would have to have some sort of system, otherwise it would be impossible to move men from one part of the Union to the other. He did not want to go into the question of coal. He only wanted to say to the hon. member for Fordsburg (Mr. Duncan) that he had no objection to laying the agreement on the table. If the hon. member wished to see the agreement he could do so. The position was this, that as Railway Minister it was his business to see that the railway got coal at a cheap rate. These negotiations had begun before he came into office, and he took them up. A similar system, he found, had existed previously. He quite agreed that it was the duty of the railways to see that coal was brought as cheaply as possible to the large centres. He was very sensible of the fact that they had differentiating rates in the Transvaal and Natal, and also in Cape Province, although the amount of coal there was not of much account at present, and he quite agreed that they should not have one railway rate in one part of the Union and another railway rate in another part.

withdrew his amendment.

The vote was agreed to.

asked the Minister whether claims for compensation had been received in connection with the Gaika Loop disaster? He understood that there were, and that the amount of £10,000 was likely to cover the amount.

desired information with regard to the grading of clerks and Stationmasters. He asked the Minister if he would omit grade No. 4, so that there would be but four grades altogether, then there would be a uniform increase of £60 from one grade to another. This grading, he hoped, would apply to the lower ranks as well as to the higher.

desired information regarding an item o) £60,840 (harbour tonnage allowance).

said this allowance was for services rendered in the matter of in voicing, etc. They had had this system at the Cape, and had adopted lit where necessary. The question of grading was now being considered by the Departmental Commission. With regard to the claims for compensation arising out of the Gaika Loop accident, he might say that claims for compensation had been sent in, but as to what the compensation was likely to be, that was a matter for the Law Courts. He had given instructions that people should not needlessly be put to the expense and inconvenience of contesting cases, and he hoped they would be able to settle the claims without going into the Courts. He did not want to be niggardly, but, of course, people must be reasonable.

The vote was agreed to.

said he gave the figures at the beginning of the session. He could now only give the particulars from memory. Two of the Commissioners (Sir Thomas Price and Mr. McEwen) were pensioners, receiving pensions of between £1,500 and £1,600. A salary was given, making the total received by each £3,000 a year. The other Commissioner received £2,000 a year, plus an allowance of £500.

asked for information as to railway rates for the carriage of cattle.

asked what provision it was proposed to make in regard to the railwaymen who were not at present under a superannuation fund?

hoped the Minister would take the rate for the carriage of live-stock into consideration. The recent increase pressed very heavily on farmers.

expressed the hope that the Minister would reconsider the matter of the charge for picnic trains for Sunday-school children. He moved a reduction of £3 in the salaries of the gentlemen who formed the Railway Board, for he felt they were responsible, and not the Minister. He admitted that the railways had to be run on business principles, but even in business life an allowance was made for children.

said that the raising of the rates on the carriage of sheep by rail must be very serious indeed, because even Mr. dagger had rushed to their assistance. He hoped that the Minister would meet them, and see that these rates were reduced.

said in the South-eastern districts of the Free State 60,000 sheep died as the result of a drought in the area of one stock inspector only. It was essential that the railway rates for the conveyance of livestock should be reduced. The time was very near when South Africa would be able to export live-stock, and the country must set its house in order to prepare for that. The rates to the coast should be reduced to a minimum.

who was received with Ministerial cheers, said that he also desired to say a few words on behalf of the poor school children referred to by Dr. Watkins. He hoped that the concessions would be restored to them.

asked for an explanation of the item “contributions and subscriptions, £39,000.”

referred to the Railway Board, and asked for a statement of policy in connection with it. The Act of Union laid it down that the railways should be run in a particular way, and that their control must be vested In a Board subject to the authority of the Governor-General-in-Council. It was quite clear to him that in making that provision, it was not intended that the Board should be a mere advisory body to the Minister. The Minister was advised in the ordinary course by his permanent officials. If it had not been intended to make a distinct departure in railway management, it would not have been considered necessary to constitute any special body of advisers other than the ordinary head officials. This Board would not have been considered necessary— those three gentlemen would not have been appointed at the salaries paid to them— simply to act as an Advisory Board to the Minister of Railways. The Board was appointed in order to take the management as far as possible out of political control. The same sort of thing had been tried elsewhere, but they had gone further than we did. They had removed the railways entirely from the control of Parliament. It was certainly a unique experiment here, and at might succeed, or it might not. In the present Minister’s hands would lie the decision of that question. He hoped the Minister would not come too soon to the conclusion that the system could not work. The Board was not being regarded by the Minister as the body of importance which he and some others considered it was. One of the principal functions of the Board was to report upon schemes of railway construction and in regard to the list of proposed lines; it Left them entirely in the dark as to the grounds for their approval or disapproval.

pointed out that Mr. Duncan would find a good deal of explanation in the report of the Commissioners, dated April 5, because there it absolutely set out the reason why their report was worthless. They suggested that in future proposals more time should be given for consideration of them. It was clear that the Government held back this report until the House had insistently asked for it. The hon. member referred to clause 126 of the Act of Union to show that the Minister was an integral part of the Board, and should act in concert with the Commissioners. The railways, he urged, should be taken out of the arena of politics. He would like to know from the Minister when he intended to carry out the regulations which required that the Board should make a report dealing with the last year’s operations and the requirements for the current year? Parliament, he contended, was entitled to have that report before it rose. With reference to the question of tenders, he thought successful tenders should be published, so that there could be no suspicion of favouritism, and so that the unsuccessful tenderers could see where they had failed. He also asked for the masons why deviations had been made in regard to certain new lines of railway. If the Board were run properly, such deviations would not be allowed, unless it was in the public interest, and not in the interest of individuals or companies.

said that as Dr. Watkins was not then in the House, the reply to his question could stand over. As to the question put by the hon, member for Woodstock, he (Mr. Sauer) hoped the Superannuation Bill would be passed, and that would deal with the point raised. He was glad to hear what Mr. dagger had said, for it was the first time since he (Mr. Sauer) had been in Parliament—

Oh, come now. (Laughter.)

The hon. member does not know what I am going to say yet. (Laughter.) I hope it will not be the last time that he will have a good word to say for the agricultural industry. I have a shrewd suspicion that he wants the consumer to get the benefit. But he is not adhering to his principles. Proceeding, Mr. Sauer said that if they carried live-stock at the old rate throughout the Union, they would lose £20,000 a year. That was his answer to the hon. member for Cape Town. Let him say with regard to the live-stock rates that he wished it had not been found necessary to raise them, because foodstuffs, be thought, should be carried as cheaply as possible. He would like to point out to the hon. member for Cape Town (Mr. Jagger) and those immediately interested, that whilst the rates down to Cape Town had been raised, the rates to the best market the sheep farmer had—Johannesburg— had been lowered. Down towards Cape Town they had not been lowered, and he was sorry they had not been lowered. The hon. member (Mr. Struben) had referred to some deviation of a line, not without the insinuation that there was something unsavoury about it. Of course, the hon. member was rather given to that. He did not know of any deviation, and if it were brought to his notice he would inquire into the matter. He did not believe that there was any truth in the insinuation. He had known of deviations in the past having been made in the public interests, and if there had been a deviation as Stated by the hon. member, no doubt it was done for the same reason. As to the hon. member for Fordsburg, he wished he had not begun so late in the evening. They might have discussed the matter raised by him at a time when they were all more fresh than they were now. It was a very big question, and he was sure be was as anxious as anybody that the railways should be free from political control. He had been a Railway Minister for some years, and nobody could have suffered more than he because of the influence that Parliament had brought into the management of the railways. It was very curious that the gentlemen who spoke of keeping the railways out of Parliament had been the whole evening discussing the question of rates and so on.

Yes, quite right.

That is so; in fact, Parliament—this committee—has torn the Act of Union up. (A VOICE: “No.”) If this does not mean political interference, how can you have political interference except by the action of Parliament? We have been discussing this question exactly the same as if there were no Board at all. Proceeding, Mr. Sauer said he was just as anxious to carry out the provisions of the South Africa Act where it applied to the constitution of the Board, and in other respects to the administration of railways, as anyone. He was not averse to a Board. He had yet to learn that all the members of the Board would always agree. They might differ as to the interpretation of the Act, but, of course, the position was very difficult indeed. They had constituted a Board in a manner that he could not find constituted anywhere else. If the Convention had said that the railways should be managed and controlled by a Board, and had stopped there, it would have been perfectly clear, but it said that they should be subject to the authority of the Governor-General-in-Council. That imposed a responsibility upon the Minister, in the first instance, and upon the Cabinet, which was very serious, and it meant that the Government would be looked upon as the people responsible if anything went amiss. He thought it would be impossible for the Government to dispute or deny that the ultimately final decision was thrown upon them. He was very anxious that the railways should, as far as possible, be conducted on “business lines.” He was endeavouring to do so, and at the same time to carry out the provisions of the Act in regard to the duties of the Railway Board. He was sorry that the hon. member had complained of the nature of the report submitted by the Board, because he thought the Board discharged their duties, as they understood them, where required. The Board were fully informed of the local circumstances in each case, and gave their opinion. He agreed with the hon. member as to the interpretation of the South Africa Act in regard to the intention, for which the Board was made, and he was simply carrying lit out according to his light.

considered that if anybody had made out a strong case for placing the minutes on the table, it was the Minister himself.

said the Board had given their approval. Why they used the word “scrutinised” he could not say.

thought that it was the duty of the Minister, in his own interests even, to place the report on the table of the House, so that Parliament and the country would be able to judge upon the question, because he would imagine that there had been cases where his hon. friend’s proposals did not meet with the approval of the Board. What they maintained was that Parliament was supreme in directing the policy of the railways, and that, Parliament having laid down the policy, it was for the Railway Board, and not the Minister, to carry out that policy. Even the Minister might tinge that policy with a certain amount of political consideration. The point was that one did not know whether the things that were done represented the policy of the Minister or of the Board. There was, for instance, the transportation system. Had that system been determined on by the Board after full consideration and discussion?

said that, with regard to free passes to the members of the Executive, those had been given by the decision of the Board. In reference to the transportation system, when the Union Government was formed, at least three of the members of the Board considered and discussed this question fully, and decided to adopt the system. It was now, therefore, to be given a fair trial. Not sufficient time had elapsed to pronounce judgment on the system.

said there was not the slightest doubt that the Railway Board was a new departure in South Africa. The Government had a free hand in electing the members of the Board, and in that respect they must take the full responsibility. But Parliament had no idea whatever of what were the views of the Board. He understood the Minister to say a few days ago that the Railway Estimates were prepared in consultation with the Board.

said he did not mean to say that the Board was merely a consultative body.

Do I understand that if the Minister makes a statement here he makes it on behalf of the Board, and that the Board is in agreement with him? If we knew more of what the Board is doing and had more assurances that he was acting in complete unison with the Board, then there would be greater confidence in the country with regard to the Board. It appeared to him, proceeded Sir George, that the Board had not had a fair chance, because the Minister hardly ever mentioned anything about it. The result of Australia’s experience was that Parliament put the railways into the hands of the Commissioners. The Minister maintained that he was responsible to Parliament, but he (the Minister) put a different interpretation upon the Act of Union to what he (Sir George) and his colleagues did. He was of the opinion that if they were going to drift backwards and allow the railways to be managed by a Minister, then the railways would drift back into their old political ruts, and would be managed by political pressure from every direction. He thought the thanks of the House were due to the hon. member for Fordsburg for bringing forward this question.

said that he was prepared to give the Minister his authority for his statements, and he was net going to be deterred by the gibes of the Minister.

The vote was agreed to.

complained that they were asked to go on after midnight after they had been at work since 10.30 in the morning.

Progress was reported, and leave obtained to sit again to-morrow.