from D. Campbell, late police constable.

from T. Byren, painter, “Salt River Railway Works.

from women of the Cape Colony re the age of consent.

from C. M. Marais, widow, of Beaufort West.

from A. Saunders, railway service, Orange Free State.

from A. H. Stace, Railway Department.

from W. H. Searle, assistant, South African Public Library, Cape Town.

from R. Blake, assistant teacher, Education Department.

from A. Bartholomew, Cape Government Railways.

as Chairman, brought up the Fourth Report of the Select Committee on Standing Rules and Orders, as follows:—

Fourth report of the Select Committee, appointed by Orders of the House of Assembly, dated the 7th and 8th November, 1910, on Standing Rules and Orders, and to consist of Mr. Speaker, Mr. Merriman, Dr. Jameson, the Minister of Railways, the Minister of the Interior, Sir Bisset Berry, the Prime Minister, Sir Henry Juta, and Mr. Watt. Your Committee having conferred with a Select Committee of the Senate in regard to the Joint Parliamentary Establishment, beg to recommend, as follows:—I. That the following appointments be made and salaries awarded, viz.: Librarian, W. Flint, D.D., £600 p.a; Assistant Librarian, J. F. Zahn, £250 p.a.; Caretaker, E. Kellaway, £300 p.a., and free house. II. That H. J. Tomlinson be appointed as Library messenger, with salary at the rate of £78 per annum. III. That Arthur Kellaway be placed on the list of monthly paid men, with salary at the rate of 7s. 6d. per diem, including Sundays. IV. That J. Gaskell be appointed gardener, with salary at the rate of £196 per annum, and that he be allowed, under the supervision of the Clerk of the House of Assembly, extra assistance at an expenditure not to exceed £30 per annum. V. That cleaner Mansell’s rate of pay be increased to 6s. 7d. per diem; and that the present staff of cleaners be retained.

stated that unless notice of objection to the report was given at the next sitting of the House, the report would be considered as adopted.

Return showing: (a) The strength of the Police Force in Johannesburg on the 1st March, 1907; (b) number of men enlisted in the Police Force of the Transvaal, and pay of each of the men; (c) number of men discharged; (d) the names and rank of those who have since the 1st June last applied for their discharge.

Estimates of revenue for the ten months ending 31st March, 1911.

moved that the House go into Committee of Supply on the Estimates.

seconded.

Mr. Speaker,—I do not suppose, sir, that there are many hon. members who envy the task which I have to perform this afternoon. It is never an interesting thing explaining a mass of figures, and my difficulties to-day are rather increased by the fact that I have to start, so to speak, on page 1, in submitting to this House and to the public of South Africa outside this House, and explaining the financial position, which will be both clear and concise. There is a further difficulty, I feel, that in presenting a statement of this kind there are a number of things which might conveniently be omitted, and other matters which ought to be dwelt upon at greater length. If, therefore, on the one hand, I were to touch only slightly upon some of these matters, it would be said that my statement is not sufficiently complete, whilst, on the other hand, if I dealt at too great length on other matters, I run the risk of wearying the House; but I feel certain of one thing, and that is that the House will extend to me to-day a greater measure of indulgence than I should expect on any other occasion. (Hear, hear.) Well sir, before I proceed further, I should like to say—and I think the House will agree with me—that this is hardly the occasion upon which we should enter into an exhaustive examination of the financial policy of the Government of the Union. It will be remembered that the Estimates which I am submitting to the House this afternoon deal only with a 10 months’ period, and that more than half of that period has already lapsed. Furthermore, the expenditure covered by that 10 months’ period has already, to a large extent—the greater portion of that expenditure covered by the Estimates has already been actually incurred, and therefore I think hon. members will agree with me that the better plan will be to wait until we are dealing with next years’ Estimates before the House enters upon any elaborate examination of financial policy. Furthermore, I should point out that the accounting officers, when they were asked to submit their expenditure Estimates, were requested to proceed, as far as possible, on the old lines, and on the basis prior to May 31; and on no account were they to make provision for new services in these Estimates, except in special cases, where the public would suffer if no provision were made for these new services.

You have not included the extraordinary expenditure.

If the hon. member will wait, I will give all these figures when the times comes.

said he thought the House would like to thank the Hon. the Treasurer for the very clear statement he had put before them. Of course, hon. members always experienced great difficulty in forming conclusions immediately after listening to a Budget speech. There were certain items in the Estimates as laid before the House which he was not quite clear about. There was the statement showing the interest payable on debt, for instance. For the ten months the interest payable on the Free State debt of £35,000,000 was given at £525,000. At the end of the financial year, however, the payments which fell due were heavier than at other times of the year, and the payment for ten months Could not be taken as ten-twelfths of the total payment under that head. However, as was customary, he would not delay the House further that afternoon, but would now move the adjournment of the debate.

who seconded, said it would be convenient if the Budget Speech could be printed for the information of hon. members.

The motion for the adjournment of the debate was agreed to, and the debate was adjourned until Thursday.

moved that in the opinion of this House it is desirable that the minutes of the South African National Convention be printed and published. The right hon. gentleman said that now that full Union had been attained, it was in the interests of everyone in South Africa that the minutes of the Convention should be published. (Hear, hear.) What had taken place in the Convention had been made use of on platforms. Some of the members of the Convention had preserved silence, others had not, thereby acting contrary to the feelings of colleagues. This had led to a kind of agitation among the people. In order to stop that, and because no good reason now existed why publication should not take place, he moved the resolution on behalf of his hon. friend, the Minister of the Interior.

in seconding the motion, said that originally, when the Convention met, he was an advocate for not having any reporters present, because he knew that if reporters were admitted to their deliberations, the Convention would still have been sitting, if they had not come to bloodshed. (Laughter.) When it was decided to observe secrecy in a matter of that kind, there ought to be an understanding that the matter was secret, but it was astonishing how many imaginative statements about the doings of the Convention had been put forward by one person and another, since the Convention had! finished its labours. There was one distinguished orator in South Africa who never made a speech without relating some incident that happened at the Convention. That gentleman was gifted with an imagination to which he had given free scope in a book which he thought they would all agree was a credit to South Africa, ‘but when he carried that brilliant imagination into the realms of politics, he (Mr. Merriman) was not quite sure that the result was so satisfactory. (Laughter.) He hoped the printing of the minutes would be got on with as quickly as possible, and then everybody would see on what a slender foundation many of the things which had been related about the Convention rested.

said he would like to know if the minutes of the Convention recorded all the large number of “honourable understandings” that were arrived at from time to time by the delegates? (Laughter. )

The motion was agreed to.

moved: That a Select Committee be appointed to consider and report upon an application, which has been submitted to Government, in terms of Act No. 15 of 1909 (Orange River Colony), for the establishment of a township on the farm Liliefontein, No. 251, district of Ficksburg, Orange Free State; the committee to have power to take evidence and call for papers, and to consist of Messrs. C. L. Botha, Brain, and the mover.

seconded.

thought that a new departure was being made in having a Select Committee consisting of only three members, all of whom happened to come from the same Province—not that he said that there was any objection to that. He suggested to the Minister of Lands that another two members should be added.

said that he had no objection, but the matter was absolutely one of pro forma, in that instance. He explained why he moved the appointment of the committee.

I must remind the hon. member that an eminent authority recently translated “pro forma” as “in a great hurry.” (Laughter.)

The motion as to the appointment of the committee was agreed to.

amendment (the number of members of the committee to be five) which was seconded by Mr. J. X. MERRIMAN (Victoria West) was also agreed to.

proposed that Dr. Smartt (Fort Beaufort) and Mr. Currey (George) should be the additional members of the committee. (Laughter.)

The hon. member will give notice to-morrow for the two other members.

moved the third reading of the Bill.

asked whether he was allowed to move an amendment at that stage, or had he to have given notice on the paper?

It is not in accordance with the rules of the House to move an amendment at the third reading, unless notice has been given on the paper.

May I draw the Minister of Justice’s attention that in clause 4 power has been, or is proposed to be, given to the Appellate Division, which is obviously against the sense and the feeling of this House—the power to take evidence by affidavit without a stipulation being made for a replying affidavit in any way, or provision being made for testing the bona fides of the affidavit before the Court. Could not the Minister of Justice withdraw this power now, seeing that it is a power which is not now given to the Court?

It is not my intention to take anything out of the Bill. If the attention of members of the Senate is drawn to this, the matter may be dealt with there. (Hear, hear.)

The Bill was read a third time.

moved that in line 50 the word “convicted” be deleted. It was this, he said, that caused the trouble. It was a word that was introduced by the draughtsman, and should have been left out. The word “but” would then be in order.

thought the intention was that one person should not be convicted under two laws—under common law and statute law.

withdrew his amendment to delete the word “but.”

The amendment moved by the Minister of Justice was then put and declared agreed to, and the clause as amended was passed.

Clauses 17 and 18 were amended.

On the last item in the schedule,

moved, to omit sub-sections (1), (2) and (3).

The amendment was agreed to.

The schedule as amended was agreed to.

On clause 3,

moved: In line 23, to omit all the words after “Gazette” down to “Gazette” in line 28, and substitute the following: “(a) In the case of laws, proclamations, regulations, notices, or other documents published prior to the thirty-first day of May, 1910, and required under a law in force prior to that day to be published in the ‘ Gazette’ shall mean the ‘ Government Gazette’ of the colony wherein that law was in force; and (b) in the case of laws, proclamations, regulations, notices or other documents published after the thirty-first day of May, 1910, and required under any law to be published in the “Gazette” shall mean the Union of South Africa Government ‘Gazette,’ or if the matter be one reserved to or delegated to a Provincial Council under the South Africa Act, 1909, shall mean the ‘ Official Gazette’ of the Province concerned.”

The amendment was agreed to, and the clause as amended was agreed, to.

The Bill was reported with amendments, and the amendments were set down for consideration on Wednesday.

in moving the second reading of the Police Bill, said it was imperative that the police of the various Provinces of the Union should be organised as soon as possible into one body, so as to have one legal authority. That could not be effectively done at present, because in some of the colonies the police force was in one body, whereas in other colonies the police were split up into four or five sections, all regulated by different laws, differing especially as to organisation. The Cape have five different kinds of police; Natal have three. In order therefore to constitute one police force for the Union, it was necessary to repeal the different laws affecting the police in the Cape Colony, and to make provision for amalgamation. It was not necessary that the different police forces of the Cape Colony, for instance, should immediately be amalgamated in the general police force of the Union, and in how far the assimilation into one body should take effect was a question to be decided by the Government. He felt strongly against there being different police forces in the Union, and considered that it would be far better to have all the forces amalgamated into one body, and afterwards, if necessary;, provision could be made for assigning to certain sections of the force certain specific duties, and placing, for instance, the Railway Police under the railway management or some other body under some other authority. It was not exactly essential that complete unification should take place, but the Governor-General was empowered, under the Bill, to take such steps in this direction as might be deemed advisable. The provisions in the present Bill were taken over mainly from the Transvaal and Free State laws, the Free State law being based on that of the Transvaal. The provisions in the Bill were only such as were necessary to be put in a law; there were a number of administrative provisions which would always have to be in the form of regulations, and it would be impossible to have all kinds of minute provisions contained in a law. He hoped that although the regulations had not yet been completed, they would be before the end of the session, and laid on the table of the House. The hon. member proceeded to say that hon. members would see that the Transvaal Board of Officers had been dispensed with, which would be better for military upheavals, but in times of peace, like they had under the Union, it was better left out. There was simply a Board of Inquiry without power to mete out any punishment.

thought that on the main principles of the Bill they would all agree. The different police forces, as they existed in South Africa at present, must be consolidated, and they would like to see that consolidation effected in a satisfactory manner, and that a new police force was started under good auspices, so as to make the force efficient in the discharge of its most important duties. They must not forget that they were dealing with a force of 8,000 men, entailing an annual expenditure of one and a quarter millions; and considering the complexity of the subject he thought the Minister of Justice would have been well advised to accept the proposal of his right hon. friend on the right (Dr. Jameson) and have moved for the appointment of a Select Committee, so that the different conditions might be assimilated and proper rules laid down for guidance in the future. He thought that they were all agreed that it was a very questionable practice to adopt what the Minister had done—the practice of proclamation of regulations. He (the hon. member) did not know whether it was due to the Oriental methods they had heard about—(laughter)—or whether the Minister had not yet thought out the details in order to place them before the House. Why could not the Government specify in the schedule of the Bill the different police bodies which they proposed to incorporate, and the date on which they proposed to do so? Instead of that they had the whole thing left in the most vague manner to the subsequent discretion of the Minister. As to section 2, he could not see why all that should not have been thought out before, and the different bodies scheduled, so that the House would know of what the new police force was going to consist. Under section 3 it would be within the Governor-General’s power to repeal statutes by proclamation, which he hoped the House would not agree to without due consideration. The effect of that was that the Governor-General might by Proclamation include a portion of the present Police Force in the South African Police, and leave out the other portion; but might, if he chose, call upon the men in the existing force to join the new force, without knowing the conditions under which they were expected to serve. Again, a man might have accumulated leave earned, while a member of the South African Constabulary or the Transvaal Town Police, and his right to that leave would cease under the provisions of that Bill. No provision was made in the Bill to allow the men reasonable time to say whether they wished to serve in the new force. Furthermore, there was nothing to show that the men, if they did not wish to join the force, would retain all the privileges and rights of leave which they had earned. Very serious trouble was caused in the Transvaal in 1908 by the Government there proceeding, more or less, in the same manner as the Government were now proceeding with this Bill. The Government of the Transvaal asked the men to sign on before the terms of the Bill had been published, much less before they were discussed and passed by the House. All through the Bill one found that everything was left to the Minister. The Governor-General appointed officers, but the Minister might, if he thought fit, take such steps as to lead to their dismissal, and therefore they had less safeguard in the collective power of the whole Government. That was a matter that should be attended to. With regard to the provision relating to discipline, he was glad to find that the Minister of Justice was of the opinion which he (the speaker) and his colleagues in the Transvaal strongly held when the Transvaal Act was passed with regard to the punishment of officers. It was very satisfactory to find that if the Hon. the Minister of Justice had been a member of the Transvaal Parliament, he would have voted with the Opposition against the Government who were now his colleagues. The provisions in regard to discipline were much more satisfactory than those in the Transvaal Act. He would ask the Minister to consider whether it would not be right to define more accurately what he proposed to do. Let them know what forces were going to be incorporated in the new force, and when they were going to be incorporated. Let the men who would compose the force know definitely upon what terms they were going to have a chance of being incorporated. Let them know whether they could retire in full retention of the privileges and rights of leave which they had earned. Do not let them be rushed. If the Police Force of this country had not confidence that they would be properly treated, then it would not be efficient. During the last three years there had been much discontent in the Transvaal Police Force. There had been anxiety as to the conditions upon which the men held their positions. They never knew what was going to happen. They had seen officers removed without any reason for their removal, and they had seen officers appointed whose records did not indicate that they had had police experience. If they were going to have an efficient Police Force, the conditions must be clearly laid down, and the men must have confidence in their officers and the Government and the Minister, who were above these officers. For these reasons, he asked the Minister whether he would not accept the suggestion that all these complicated matters be referred to a Select Committee.

agreed with the last speaker that the matter should be postponed, preferably till after the New Year. His constituents were dissatisfied with the manner in which the police acted towards the public. It was a mistake to put all the police under one Commissioner. The police should be under the local Magistrate. If this were done, many difficulties at present existing would vanish, lit was essential that the people should be able to trust and respect the police; in order to attain that object, the Government should pay the men well. The tendency was to place too much power into the hands of Commissioners; they were empowered to dismiss the men or to punish them in secret, without due inquiry, which happened sometimes merely because they refused to dance to the officers’ tune. In view of the importance of the subject, time should be given to enable members to consider the necessary amendments.

said that clause 2 of the Bill gave the Government power, under Proclamation, to incorporate the whole of the police, which included the Municipal or Borough Police, into the South African Police Force. The existing legislation in Natal gave the right to towns to have their own police. Durban had enjoyed that right for 50 years, and the people of Natal would object to their old rights being taken away by a stroke of the pen. The Bill ought, at any rate, to be referred to a Select Committee, so that the views of the different parts of the Union on the subject might be thoroughly considered. There were many other points to be considered, as, for instance, the question of the granting of pensions and gratuities. If the benefits enjoyed by the police in any part of the country were taken away, it would operate as a great discouragement to good men to join the force. He hoped that the Minister for Justice would allow the Bill to stand over until after Christmas, when members would return from the different Provinces prepared to deal with the Bill according to the views of the people.

welcomed the Bill. He considered the amalgamation of the forces a step in the right direction. He thought, however, the Minister ought to decide now what forces he would bring under the Bill. He hoped the committee stage of the Bill would be deferred until the regulations had been prepared and laid before the House. With regard to the question of pay, there should be a progressive scale, a scale such as would encourage good men to remain in the force. The regulations should lay down what the pay of officers, non-commissioned officers, and men was to be. The position of the Gape Mounted Police today was most unsatisfactory. They found a police inspector in one part of the Colony getting £700 a year, while up North, where living was much dearer, there would be an inspector getting a salary of £375. If it was not made worth while for a man to remain in the police, the result would be that they would only be able to recruit the force from the riff-raff off the street. It took years to convert the raw material into an efficient policeman, and if a progressive scale was not held out as an inducement to that man, he would not remain in the force, but would go elsewhere, where he could earn better pay, as soon as he had an opportunity. That meant the continual recruiting of raw material. The position of every man should be defined when he entered-the force, and that could only be done by putting all those things clearly in the regulations. In the scheme of retrenchment of the Gape Mounted Police carried out by the late Gape Parliament some time back, officers were reduced to the rank of non-commissioned officers, and that caused discontent right through the country, and was a very cruel blow. He hoped the position of the police was going to be so clearly established in the scheme of amalgamation that any repetition of that sort of thing would be impossible. Another question was: what was going to be the relation of the police to the rest of the service? After a certain length of service, the man in the police force should be able to come on to the fixed establishment; he should get a pension; and he should be allowed to contribute to the pension fund. He should enjoy the same privileges in that respect as the ordinary clerk in the public service. It was the duty of the House to see that everything connected with the police force was placed on an absolutely sound basis, so that officers non-commissioned officers, and men would know exactly where they stood. He would draw the attention of the Minister for Justice to another matter. In the Cape Police the old system was altered, and the men had now to purchase their own horses. That was a good system in a place where there was no horse-sickness, but in a constituency like his, where 70 or 80 per cent, of the horses were swept off by horse-sickness, and in parts of the Transvaal, it was not fair on the men, and that was a matter that should be taken into consideration. He hoped that such a regulation would not be introduced in connection with the Northern Territories, where horse-sickness was severe. With regard to promotion, he would like to see the system of promotion clearly established. There was no part of the service where there was so much favouritism shown as in the police force. He knew of men, good men, who, because they had not cringed to those in authority over them, had been overlooked, and other men promoted over their heads. He hoped that a proper system of promotion would be laid down, and that men would be promoted, not necessarily according to length of service, but according to merit and the work they had done. The new police force, he trusted, was not going to be a military force as well. It was, of course, necessary that the men should have a certain amount of drilling, but the man the farmer wanted was the man who had the bump of locality, the man who could find his way about, who could detect a spoor, and who could keep to it, and the man who could run down the criminal. He earnestly hoped the spirit of militarism would be kept out of the force, that the very best men would be selected, and that the Government would not allow the question of money to stand in the way of obtaining a highly efficient and contented police force (Hear, hear.)

said that to his mind the way the Minister for Justice proposed to deal with the matter was not the best one. He considered the Government should make up their mind to be model employers. In the treatment of their servants they should be an example to every other employer throughout the country, and he thought it would be a good thing to start with the police force. The police had extraordinary duties to perform. Of all the servants employed by the Government there were none whose responsibilities were greater or whose work was more trying than that of the police, and the conditions under which they worked should be such as to maintain contentment amongst the men. That all was not well with the police force even now there could be no doubt. In the Transvaal police alone 151 men had left for various causes, or had been discharged in the short period of five months. In 1908, when the Transvaal Police Bill was introduced, the result of the uncertainty created by that Bill was that no less than 303 men were driven out of the force. There was an attempt made in the Transvaal House of Assembly by a Minister who was no longer a Minister to make it appear that those men had gone because their characters were bad. That was adding insult to injury with a vengeance. When the returns called for giving the characters of those men who had left the force were furnished it was found that out of the 303 men who had left only 10 had bad characters and seven were doubtful. The Minister of Justice had to deal with a number of conditions, or a number of sets of conditions, in the Union, which were not alike. The C.M.P. were, he thought, considered with feelings of regard by the people in the Cape Province, and in Natal he believed it was the same with regard to the police there; in the Orange Free State he did not know what the position was, but in the Transvaal it was not the same, whether it was because the police were constantly coming and going because of the way in which they were handled, or not, he did not know. The hon. member spoke strongly in favour of the appointment of a Select Committee advocated by other hon. members Certain things there were which could be dealt with by regulations, but he thought that they ought to stop short of altering the whole manner of the men’s service, and he could not imagine any Minister with a proper sense of responsibility who was willing to take upon himself the responsibility of altering an Act of Parliament fay regulations. To have one force under one responsible head was a good proposal, but the difficulty was in carrying it out, to faring about the desired result, and not to spoil the men. He hoped that a Select Committee would be appointed, and that the police themselves were represented on it in some way— (hear, hear)—seeing that they had a voice in that matter. What did they know about the police, and all the conditions, except in so far as an individual member in the House might get up and say that the police of a certain place wanted this or that?

who agreed with what other hon. members had said, said that in any Consolidated force such as the Bill proposed to bring about a number of local advantages were swept away. If a Select Committee were appointed and went into the whole matter, jangling and troubles in the force would be avoided which were more due to misunderstanding than anything else. Dealing with some of the sections of the Bill, he thought clause 19 contained a bad principle, because disciplinary offences, with which it dealt, were mere technical offences, and they did not want to sentence a man to imprisonment for that. He was more than delighted to hear from the front Opposition bench that the Oriental despotism so much liked by the Minister for the Interior was resented by the pillars of toleration that sit on those benches.

said he could support the main provisions of the Bill. The Transvaal police system had to a large extent been unsatisfactory. If there was anything in complaints that had reached him it would appear that policemen simply depended on the Commissioner’s tender mercies. When a poor constable was unjustly treated he had the choice between remaining silent or being “kicked out.” The police should be commanded by the magistrates. Expensive officers, who had nothing to do except to drive around in Government conveyances, should be abolished. In the Transvaal a number of special police were being employed in connection with East Coast fever. They were mostly men, bred and born on farms, who knew nothing about discipline. They were placed under a district commandant, however, were bound to submit to discipline, had to learn how to salute their superiors, etc. He advocated placing these men under the magistrates.

thought the Bill must give a good deal of anxiety to many. He would like to go further than the previous speakers, and ask the Minister to postpone the discussion altogether until after the recess, or else send it to a Select Committee. He represented a large body of police, and did not know what their desire was, or how their privileges might be interfered with by the Bill. Large bodies of the Natal Police had been engaged on special terms, and it was now proposed to put them in the position of having those terms interfered with, and in a position which they never anticipated. He hoped the Minister would give an opportunity to those concerned to study the question. They had a superannuation fund and there were many points with which hon. members should make themselves familiar before they dealt with a subject so large as the policing of a vast sub-continent such as this. They might destroy that esprit de corps which existed in the forces. He was not sure whether it would not be better to postpone the whole question for another year.

also spoke of the necessity of delaying the matter, and urged that the opinion of those most interested should be obtained. He said that extraordinary power was asked for in the Bill, and contended that no private employer would be allowed to employ workmen on conditions such as were laid down in the Bill.

referred to the trouble that had taken place in the Transvaal in consequence of the last Police Act. He said that that Act created much unrest amongst the members of the police force, and the Prime Minister then informed the opposition that if they had come to him beforehand he would certainly have gone into the matter and done his best to rectify these points in the Bill which were objected to. The Opposition that day had given the Minister of Justice warning, and he could not blame them if there was unrest in the future. He pointed out that eight Commissioners had been appointed in the last ten years. He thought that the regulations should have been properly published. The House should know the conditions and regulations. They were building up a new force in the country, and it was only right and fair that the regulations, or, at any rate, the framework of the regulations, should have been outlined when the Minister introduced the measure. The whole country was affected in regard to this Police Bill, especially the large industrial centres in the Transvaal. He did not think that the Bill should be passed in its present form. If it were the Government would only be laying up trouble for itself, and the unrest which would follow would destroy the whole efficiency of the police force upon which the good order of the country depended.

Business was suspended at 6 p.m.

said that a great deal of new matter was being introduced in the Bill. On the question of the grading of the police there had been instances of men being obliged to take positions inferior to those which they formerly occupied. He knew of a case in which a sub-inspector bad been obliged to take the post of sergeant, and had been kept in that position for four years. He agreed that it was desirable to refer the Bill to a Select Committee. The police would be called upon to alter their status, and they should have time to consider the position, and to see how it would affect them. He thought also the Magistrates would be able to give them assistance in the matter. The Magistrates’ relations with the police would have to be determined. Important alterations were contemplated by the Bill in this and other particulars, and he thought it was advisable to postpone consideration of the Bill until after the recess. Then they would be able to get much information that would be helpful, and above all they would be able to ascertain the views of the men who were most affected by the proposed changes.

hoped the Minister would reconsider the position after having heard the views of members from all four Provinces of the Union, and on both sides of the House. The Minister should be convinced that this was not taken up as a party question. In conclusion, the hon. member hoped that the fullest inquiry would be made.

who also hoped that an inquiry would be made, said that he was glad the hon. member opposite had drawn attention to the matter of the de-grading of police officers in the Cape, owing to the depression, and in a great many instances, he said, the men had not been put on their old footing or rank, although the Province was now in a better financial position than it had been. These men were labouring under a sense of great injustice, and he hoped that the Minister of Justice would see to these matters. Dealing with the Cape Mounted Police, he said he believed these men should be a semi-military force, because, if it were, one got a better class of man, and no country could possess a better police force than the one in question a (Cheers.)

referred to the conditions of the police force in the Transvaal, and to the growing trade in illicit liquor there. It was their duty to see to these matters, and the wisdom of the House was not concentrated in the Minister of Justice. (Laughter.)

said he would like to remind the Prime Minister that when he introduced the Bill into the Transvaal Parliament, he said they wanted to establish a police force as perfect as possible. They wanted one that would, at present as well as in the future, have the support of both sides of the House. They had a force which deserved the admiration of both sides of the House.

Hear, hear.

I was addressing the Premier, not you.

Will the hon. member address the Speaker. (Laughter.)

I beg the Speaker’s pardon. I meant through the Speaker. (Loud laughter.) Proceeding, he said the conditions of the men in the Transvaal Police Force were, by a long way, unsatisfactory. They (the hon. members) understood that if this Bill was passed on anything like the lines they had before them, there would be grave and extreme dissatisfaction throughout the Police Force, and surely the Minister for Justice would not allow that. He hoped the matter would go to a Select Committee, so that it could be inquired into.

said he was going to give the Minister for Justice what he thought would be a sound reason for his accepting the suggestion which had come from, both sides of the House, that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee, not at this stage perhaps, but later. He quite understood that the Minister would like to take the first stage, which involved the principle, and with that principle he did not think any member on either side of the House would disagree. The main reason that he had for suggesting it was that in 1878 the old Cape House passed a measure which really took away nobody’s rights, but changed a Police Force from one name to another. It caused a great disturbance, which lasted for a long time. He thought it would be wise if the Minister for Justice would announce his intention of taking the suggestion. Their objects were to assist the Government and the Minister of Justice wherever possible, and especially when consolidating and strengthening laws.

said he might say at once that in this law, as in all other Bills which they would bring before the House, he had only one object in view, and that was to make as good daws as was possible. He had no intention to force this Bill through, but wanted to have a discussion on the second reading, to see what both sides of the House thought of it. He thought with them that if there was any law which required to be carefully considered, it was that relating to the Police Force, because he always maintained, and would do, that in the whole State they could not get another body together on whom the whole Union depended so much as on this. (Hear, hear.) One of the reasons was that, unless they had a Police Force contented, they could never get that efficiency which was necessary. He wanted a Police Force in full harmony and sympathy with the people of South Africa. He assured Hon. members that if they heard the little complaints constantly brought to him, such as of the force not being identified with the people in the districts, they would feel with him in trying to get a law which would suit the police, which made them happy, and the people happy also. He had listened to the members on both sides of the House, and he wished simply to warn them that they must not have too high expectations. He had heard members mention the following subjects as showing why they should not leave too much to regulation: pay, promotion, purchase of horses, that it should not be a military force, grading, and the position that the Police Force is to have. He would at once say that there was not one of them that could be dealt with by law. They had to be dealt with by regulations. Those were questions which would have to be inquired into very carefully. He wished to say that the Bill as it stood was drawn up by a body of police officials, whom he called together, and who went very carefully into the whole question. But he quite agreed that there might be points which might be usefully discussed by a Select Committee. As he had stated, all he wanted was a good law; he had not left out anything, because of any whim on his part. He wished to assure hon. members that it was not contemplated that any right whatever, be it in the matter of pay or of leave, should be taken away from the men, and if there was anything in the law that gave that impression, then he should be only too glad to have an amendment. When the second reading had been passed, he would be pleased to refer the matter to a Select Committee. (Opposition cheers.)

The motion for the second reading was agreed to, and the Bill read a second time.

I shall now move, as an unopposed motion, that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee, consisting of seven members. The committee to have power to take evidence and call for papers.

seconded, and the motion was agreed to.

then gave notice to move the names of the members to comprise the committee.

moved the second reading of the Powers and Privileges of Parliament Bill. He said that the first principle which the Bill proposed to define and regulate was the privilege of free speech, and the second was the privilege of free publication of all proceedings of Parliament. No action whatever could be taken in connection with anything that took place in Parliament, and was published under the official authority of the House. That privilege overrode every other consideration, but hon. members would see that there was a subsidiary privilege to the extent that extracts and condensed reports could be published of what transpired in Parliament so long as they were bona fide. All questions of privilege were taken away from the jurisdiction of the Law Courts, and no Law Court would be asked to adjudicate upon any matter, or would be allowed to adjudicate upon any matter which touched upon the privileges of Parliament. The House would inquire into any matter of privilege, in order to see what steps may be taken, and what punishment should be inflicted. If certain acts were committed they were declared in section 10 of the Bill to be contempts of Parliament. There was a long list, but he thought they were all necessary for the dignity of Parliament—disobedience of any order of the House for the attendance of witnesses or production of papers, refusal to answer any lawful questions before Parliament, or a committee, receipt of any bribe by a member, any assault or obstruction, or the sending of any threatening letter to a member of Parliament, any disturbance in the House or the vicinity, any tampering with witnesses. Proceedings could be taken to punish the culprit for any such indignity offered to Parliament. It was laid down in this Bill that there were two ways in which this procedure for infringing the dignity of Parliament may be taken. In the first place the House concerned may take a resolution upon which Mr. Speaker would issue a warrant for the arrest of the culprit, and he might be brought to the bar of the House, and he might then be dealt with by Parliament or the House concerned. It was also possible for the House to resolve that instructions be given to the Attorney-General of the Province concerned, and the Attorney-General would then bake proceedings in the law courts, and prosecute. These were the main privileges of Parliament. It was the procedure according to the Bill by which Parliament would assert its privileges, and if this procedure were followed, there could be no doubt that the honour and dignity of Parliament would be suitably recognised on all occasions.

said he did not think any opposition would be offered to the Bill from that side of the House, and it seemed that there was very little in the Bill that called for criticism, but there was one point to which he should like to call the attention of the Minister of the Interior, and that was that in a similar Bill, which was passed through the late Transvaal Parliament by a Government of which the Minister was a member, there was a certain section dealing not so much with the powers and privileges of Parliament, but with certain obligations which were laid down by Parliament, i.e., that any members who were pecuniarily interested in any contract or bargain that was before the House were required to make disclosure of that fact. He did not find any provision of that kind in the Bill before the House. He would like to know from the Minister of the Interior whether it was his intention to make any provision of that kind at all in this Bill, or any other Bill which he might bring before them. It seemed to him (Mr. Duncan) that something of the kind was desirable.

said that the Minister of the Interior had sketched out the Course which would be pursued if anybody did anything that he ought not to do to that House, but in clause 2 it was distinctly laid down that he could not be so tried. In the Dutch copy of the Bill which he had—and which, by the way, would be valid if signed by the Governor— there was not a word giving Parliament the power to deal with a matter of this kind.

said he was glad that the hon. member (Dr. Watkins) was so jealous of the correct translation. (Laughter.) He had not turned his attention to this point, but he had no doubt that it would be very carefully scrutinised now that attention had been drawn to it. With regard to the matter which had been raised by the hon. member for Fordsburg, viz., the disclosure of contracts by any member of Parliament, he had left the matter out of this Bill, in the first place, because it was not in the Cape Act, and, as far as possible, he liked to follow the Cape lines in these matters. (Laughter.) They had also the admonition of the Constitution on the matter which, in the absence of any express provision of that House, said that the procedure should be followed. He did not find any similar provision in the Cape law, and he did not think a case had been made out for inserting the long, cumbrous provision which the Transvaal legislators, in their zeal, inserted in the Transvaal Act. Under the Civil Service Act, it was necessary that every tender should be scrutinised by an impartial Board, and if any member of the House tendered, and his tender was passed unbeknown to the Board, it seemed to him that there was very little chance of a miscarriage of justice taking place. Under these circumstances, he did not think there was any necessity here to repeat the long-winded and uneffective provision of the Transvaal Act in this connection.

referred to clause 11. It appeared, he said, that the House was going to take to itself the power to inflict a fine up to £100 on any person who committed contempt, and to call upon the Speaker to issue a warrant in the event of the offender not paying the fine. Surely, they would not adopt this old and obsolete law, which was more calculated to bring the House into contempt than the offender.

hoped the Minister of Justice, before the Bill came into committee, would consider the question of having some clause drafted whereby it would be impossible for a member of Parliament to use his voice or his vote in that House in furtherance of an object in which he was directly and pecuniarily interested. If there was one thing more objectionable than another, it was that a member should use arguments in favour of matters in which, unknown to other members, he was interested. It was important, he thought, that such a provision should be included in the Bill.

The motion was agreed to.

The Bill was read a second time and set down for the committee stage on Friday.

moved after “cousins” to omit all the words to the end of paragraph (c). He said his object was to prohibit entirely the intermarriage of cousins. It was true that the Roman-Dutch law allowed the marriage of cousins, but the Roman-Dutch law also prohibited the marriage of adulterers, while there was a provision here to legalise such marriages. They were now, of course, living in different times to those for which the Roman-Dutch law was intended to provide, and they could improve on the Roman-Dutch law in these particulars. Who was to lay down the standard of physical fitness? One could not get any body of men to do it; one would give a certificate where another would refuse it. There was no doubt—it had been scientifically proved—that intermarriage of people closely related, like cousins, tended to accentuate bodily and mental ailments, and the only safeguard was to prevent those people from intermarrying.

related how, a few days after he had been admitted to the Bar, he had been asked for his opinion about a question dealing with marriage with a deceased wife’s sister, and bow he had looked up the old Free State’s laws dealing with marriage. The hon. member praised these laws, and said that in them he found the very question which had been raised by the hon. member for Potehefstroom (Mr. Neser), and he found that the Hon. the Minister of the Interior in introducing the present Bill had practically taken over clause 2 of the Free State Marriage Law. If the hon. member would look up the clause he would find that the Minister of the Interior had done all he could to prevent the marriage of double cousins; and that he had done everything for the preservation of a strong, healthy, robust nation in South Africa. He (the hon. member) could not quite see, however, why the Minister had added the proviso to that clause. He could not possibly see how it tended to the robustness, the healthiness, or the strength of any race to prevent the marriage between a widower and—

said that the hon. member read the section incorrectly.

thought that he had read the section correctly; but added that if read rapidly it was something like a Chinese puzale, and if one were not careful, one might easily— as his hon. friend (Mr. Struben) said— marry the wrong woman. (Laughter.) The hon. member went on to refer to the prejudice existing in England against marriage with a deceased wife’s sister, and said that when he read that second subsection, he thought that there was still a tinge of that prejudice in the mind of the Minister of the Interior; or what had probably happened was that he had taken that section over from some other old law. (Laughter.) He thought that the time had come in South Africa for them to give a lead in that matter, and to say that so long as marriage did not interfere with their ideas of what was good for the race they should allow it. The prohibition in the sub-section had nothing to do with blood relations. It meant, as he read it, that they prevented a sister from looking after her own step-sister’s children.

Several hon. members disagreed.

advised them to read the section again carefully.

moved to delete the words “or relationship by marriage” in lines 21 and 22, and to omit all the words after the word “degrees,” in line 39.

pointed out that the second amendment had been moved by Mr. Botha (Bloemfontein). It was therefore withdrawn.

said the words, “relationship by marriage,” clearly meant marriage with a deceased wife’s sister, and the Minister clearly intended that a man should be allowed to marry his deceased wife’s sister, and a woman her deceased—

Wife’s sister. (Laughter.)

The hon. members are taking the humorous side of it, but I appeal to the House to take the serious view. Continuing, he said that, the Minister had provided that cousins who were doubly related—related on the paternal and maternal sides—should not to allowed to marry, although cousins were allowed to marry, feeling that the consanguinity was strengthened by being double cousins. But they were no more blood relations than in the case alluded to in the last two lines of the clause. He thought that the Minister had been led away by the superficial or seeming difference.

moved to omit all the clause in sub-section (c), commencing with “between cousins.” He did so, he said, for very substantial reasons —for the strengthening of the race. No less a person than Mr. A. J. Balfour had said chat it was this question that accounted for the decadence of the English race. That was an opinion much held, but it was due to ignorance. Proceeding, he quoted Professor Darwin and several other authorities in support of his contention, and said that he wished to show that, according to up-to-date science, blood-relationship had nothing to do with the matter. It was purely a question of physical health. He asked that this question might be looked upon as a very serious one. They had any amount of evidence in the streets here of the folly in the past. There was any amount. Hon. members passed Bills dealing with ostriches and mules, and men paid £200 for a canary, and more than that for an ox or a horse, but when it came to a human being, any human male would do for a father, and any human female would do for a mother. (Laughter.) This was a national question, and he held that they were under a moral obligation to deal with the matter, and have the reference to cousins wiped out.

asked what the position was in regard to step-parents? There was no blood relationship there, and still the House would be against a person marrying his step-mother or her step-father. There was certainly some difficulty in the matter. He wished to point out that the Bill was similar to the law which prevailed in the Transvaal and the Orange Free State, and although the Bill, if it were passed into law, would not inflict any hardship upon persons living in the Northern Provinces, it was possible that the provision in sub-section (c) of section 2 might inflict a hardship upon cousins in the Gape Province. He moved to add the following words at the end of subsection (c) of section 2: “But this provision shall not apply to persons who notify the Minister of the Interior before the date of the coming in force of this Act that they are betrothed.”

said that it was because this matter went to the fundamental roots of society that he rose specially to support the hon. member for Potchefstroom in trying to induce this House to prohibit marriages between cousins. He hoped the House would turn a deaf ear to the views which had been expressed by the hon. member for Roodepoort. He thought that in this matter they should be guided by the experience of this country, and he would ask the hon. members, who belonged to a different race from his own, to think what had happened even amongst their own people. He believed that in the back veld of this country there was an alarming proportion of degenerates owing to the intermarrying of consanguineous people. He was talking now of what he heard from those who were practising his profession in remote parts of the country. One of the results of Union, he thought, would be the intermarrying of the races, and he believed that the result of such intermarrying would be an improvement of either race. He thought this intermarrying, not of cousins, but of strangers, would go to solve the difficulties of his hon. friend, the Minister of the Interior, in regard to the language question.

agreed that excessive inbreeding led to evil results. In the Transvaal law of old there had been a prohibition against cousins marrying. His experience as a cattle breeder had taught him that, if he wished to maintain the quality of his stock, it was necessary constantly to introduce new blood. If the amendment were agreed to, however, it would cause a lot of inconvenience. The people were not in favour of it, and he trusted that it would be rejected.

said that he could assure the hon. member for Denver that the remarks of the hon. member for Roodepoort had not fallen Upon deaf ears, because he agreed with the remarks of the hon. member (Dr. Haggar). He fully agreed with the hon. member, and he thought too much was being assumed in connection with this matter, especially in the remarks of the hon. member for Bloemfontein. It seemed that that hon. member assumed a great deal of what science did not teach. Science did not teach that consanguineous marriages were injurious. He (Mr. Maasdorp) also rose for the purpose of asking the Minister of the Interior what were the reasons for having brought in this Bill, with its provisions with reference to the marriage of cousins. As he understood it, the law, as it existed in the Transvaal and the Orange Free ‘State, was as it was propose in this Bill, but it was not so in Natal and the Gape Province. He considered that it was a dangerous thing to come and ask them to alter this law of the Cape Province and Natal, which had a Larger white population than the other two Provinces, when the people of those Provinces had not had an opportunity of expressing any opinion upon it. Had the ’people of the Gape Province asked for such a law? He remembered that once a Bill was before the Gape Parliament in reference to the marriage of cousins, and it was thrown out. He thought they should proceed cautiously, and wait for the people to ask for a law of this kind. It was all very well in theory to say, as the hon. member for Roodepoort (Dr. Haggar) had said, that the marriage of unfit, persons should be forbidden; but how were they going to set about it? It was a very dangerous thing. Who were going to be the judges as to whether people were fit? Was it to be the medical faculty? If so, he did not think it would be quite safe, because doctors did not always agree, and very often they made serious mistakes. He would be very glad if this clause were expunged altogether from the Act.

said it was a curious thing that in the Transvaal, from which they had had so much complaint on this subject, they had this law. Didn’t it show that it was not a question of legislation; that it was rather a question of locality; that where people could not travel and were isolated, these things took place? They must look for the remedy not in legislation. They must look to education and to the improved means of travel there were now. No man was obliged to marry his cousin nowadays because there was no one else. If the sentiment of the people were against it, this sort of thing would not take place. If they passed such a law as this, people could evade it by going outside the Union to get married. He would like to see this section about cousins expunged. It was no good to have a law which was against the sentiment of the people. This was a serious question. It was interfering with the social habits of the people, and he hoped the Minister of the Interior could see his way to take out the clause. Apparently it had not worked well in the Transvaal; it had not prevented the evils complained of there.

said he did not believe that in a civilised community a law of this description was against the sentiment of the people. If a law of this kind was unable to prevent these marriages it did not follow that they should not have such a law on the Statute-book. He thought the clause, as it stood in the Bill, would meet the case; the amendment of the hon. member for Potchefstroom (Mr. Neser), in his opinion, went too far. He hoped to see the Bill pass in the form in which it had been introduced by the Hon. the Minister of the Interior.

said that in listening to that debate he wondered why that clause had been put in; and he entirely agreed with the right hon. the member for Victoria West (Mr. Marriman) that the Cape Act had worked well, and he could not understand what the object was in going in for these restrictions, for once they did, he did not see where the line was to be drawn. Why should they say that one particular kind of cousin should be allowed to marry, and debar other cousins from marrying? He agreed with the right hon. gentleman that that matter was one of sentiment, and should be left to the common-sense of the people, unhampered by such restrictions.

said that no one who kept his eyes open could deny that the results of marriages between cousins was often harmful, especially as between double cousins. In fact, some went as far as to say that it was as bad as a marriage between a brother and sister. No one who knew the Afrikander nation well could gainsay that often the most deplorable results followed such marriages between cousins, and, as a consequence, they saw idiotic children, or those whose mental capacity was weak, while physically they were poor. Experience was their best teacher. He supported the Bill as it stood.

said the Bill affected the status of the people, and he was surprised to note the number of amendments to the clause. The Bill was based on existing legislation, and if as much as a single line were altered, the context would be spoilt. If the member for Potchefstroom’s amendment were carried hon. members would certainly be stoned on returning to their constituencies!

The hon. member was continuing the debate when the electric light suddenly went out, leaving the hall in utter darkness.

All right, go on. (Laughter.)

moved that progress be reported, and leave be asked to sit again on Wednesday, and this was agreed to.