from Francina E. S. Commaille, widow of the late John L. C. Commaille, formerly a clerk in the Deeds Office, Cape Town, praying for an increased pension from the Widows’ Fund, or for other relief.

from W. M. van Gorkum, who served for nearly 25 years under the former Orange Free State Republic, after which he was awarded a pension, praying that certain period of service, which he believes was not accounted for, may be recognised, and that he may be awarded an increased pension, or for other relief.

from George Simpson, a wagon foreman, Salt River Railway Works, who entered the service in June, 1882, praying for permission to contribute arrears to the Pension Fund from July, 1886, to June, 1888.

from J. Hardie, late foreman in the Railway Department, Cape Town, who served since 1897, with a break in his service from September, 1901, to July, 1902, praying that the said break may be regarded as leave without pay, or for other relief.

from T. J. Hall, who served as a labourer in the Salt River Railway Works for 21 years, until September, 1910, when he was retired at the age of 60, praying for consideration of his circumstances, or for other relief.

from A. J. Bosman, widow of the late W. A. Bosman, who served as a police constable, Beaufort West, for more than nine years, and died as the result of a cold contracted whilst on duty, praying for consideration of her circumstances, or for other relief.

from H. D. van der Schyff, stationmaster in the service of the Railway Department, who entered the service in October, 1888, praying that he may be allowed to contribute arrears to the Pension Fund from 1888 to 1895, or for other relief.

from L. C. Kunz, widow of the late J. A. Kunz, who served as a police constable from December, 1897, until May, 1909, when he died, praying the House to consider her circumstances and to grant her relief.

Proposed grant of lots 160, 162, 171, 172 and 173, Bodiam, Peddie, as a site for an undenominational public school; grant of rest camp at Tsolo to the Transkeian Territories General Council; proposed grant of lot 136, Douglas, to the Dutch Reformed Church; King William’s Town—proposed grant of lot 24, Berlin, to the German Lutheran Church; application for site for Anglican Church, Kuruman; application for grant of garden lot 59, Knapps Hope Mission Station, King William’s Town, to the London Missionary Society; Hay— transfer of lot 126, Griquatown, from London Missionary Society to Dutch Reformed Church; application by English Church for a site at Campbell; application by Anglican Church for title to church site at Hlobo, Nqamakwe; application for church and school site at Zangokwe, Queen’s Town, by Wesleyan Methodist Church; application for permission to erect a parsonage on the Dutch Reformed Church site, Kenhardt; application by P. S. Lawlor for title to trading site at Mhlahlane, in the division of Nqamakwe; establishment of a public cemetery at Bizana; application by United Free Church of Scotland for title to church and school sites at Ludondolo, in Magqoboka’s Location, and at Esinqumeni in Ginyigazi’s Location, district of Idutywa; application by Wesleyan Methodist Church for new church and school site at Cegouana, Butterworth; cemetery accommodation at Nqamakwe; application for sale of garden lots 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15, near King’s Cross Township, King William’s Town; application by Dutch Reformed Church for church site on farm Uitkyk, Native Reserve, Wodehouse; application by C. H. Reeves for title to trading site at Qwaninga, district of Idutywa; establishment of a public cemetery at Hoedjes Bay, Malmesbury; proposed establishment of agricultural institution in the district of Mqanduli; application by Mr. A. W. Mitcham for a fishing site at Gericke Point, George; application for public library site, Port St. John’s; squatters on Middelvlei, Caledon; Worcester Agricultural Show Ground.

On the motion of the MINISTER OF MINES, seconded by Mr. VAN EEDEN:

These papers were referred to the Select Committee on Waste Lands.

Number of cattle imported into the Western Transvaal from the Cape Province, 1st January, 1910, to date; and cattle imported from the Orange Free State into the Western Transvaal during the same period.

Blue Book on Native Affaire, year ended 30th June, 1909 (Transvaal); Blue Book on Native Affairs, year ending 31st December, 1909 (Natal); copy of regulations framed under section four of the Urban Areas Native Pass Act, No. 18 of 1909 (Transvaal); copy of Government Notice No. 246 of 1910, amending the regulations framed under section four of Act No. 18 of 1909 (Transvaal).

Township at Liliefontein, Orange Free State.

Administrative and clerical service officers of the late Transvaal Colony retained in the Public Service after the age of sixty years in accordance with the provisions of section twenty-three (2) of the Public Service and Pensions Act, 1908 (Transvaal).

asked: (1) What free railway passes were issued to or retained by ex-members of Parliament within the Union between May 31 and November 4, 1910; (2) by whose authority this was done, and for how long were the passes available; (3) how many were returned; (4) how it is intended to deal with the matter on business principles, or otherwise, in the accounts?

replied that 324 passes were issued, but fourteen gentlemen were so sensitive that they returned their passes. (Laughter.) As to the question by whose authority the passes were issued, he said that he gave instructions. “The hon. member,” continued Mr. Sauer, “asks how it is intended to deal with the matter on business principles or otherwise. Well, I am afraid that the matter will be dealt with otherwise.” (Laughter.)

asked the Minister of Lands whether it has been brought to his notice that the piece of Crown land known as “Freddy,” No. 316, Ward Hogeveld, district Rustenburg, is occupied by natives to the great inconvenience of the surrounding Europeans, and, if so, whether it is his intention to give notice to those natives to remove from the said piece of ground and to allot the same to Europeans, in accordance with the provisions of the Transvaal Crown Lands Disposal Ordinance?

In reply to the hon. member, I beg to say that I am at the present time in communication with the Native Affairs Department on the subject of the occupation of the farm “Freddy” by natives, and that I propose to take steps for their removal as soon as possible after they have reaped their crops, and the removal can be effected without injustice to them.

asked the Minister of Finance whether the Government will consider the arduous position of Civil Servants in the Cape Province who, after foregoing increases for a number of years, had recently had 5 per cent. deducted from their salaries, with a view to the return to such officials of the amounts still remaining so deducted?

The question was withdrawn.

asked whether the Government will introduce a Bill for the abolition of trial by jury in criminal cases, and substituting therefor a trial by three judges, or, if not, whether, in order to ensure uniformity, a Bill will be introduced during the present session varying the law of trial by jury in criminal cases, so that a verdict of not less than seven of the jury shall determine the verdict, as at present in the Transvaal Province is provided by section 8 of Act No. 38 of 1909?

said that with regard to the first part of the question, Government had no intention of introducing such a Bill. The latter question was being carefully considered by the Government in connection with the code of criminal procedure which it would be necessary to frame.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether the conditions regarding the immunisation of mules, hitherto in force in the Transvaal, and now extended to the Cape Colony and the Orange Free State under Government Notice No. 908, has been extended to Natal, and, if not, whether this will be done?

The conditions regarding the immunisation of mules against horse-sickness will be extended to Natal at an early date; in fact, almost immediately. The delay was due to the veterinary staff in Natal being short-handed. The Government desires to treat all the Provinces alike.

asked whether, in view of the large production of mealies in certain parts of the Orange Free State and the Transvaal, the Government intends to lower the railway freight on grain, so that the producers may be enabled to obtain more markets for their produce within the Union?

was understood to say that the question would be taken into consideration.

asked whether any steps have been taken to increase the branch of the Transvaal Police Force which deals with the suppression of illicit trade in liquor, as recommended on page 15, paragraph 24, in the Transvaal Liquor Commission Report?

said that provision had been made for native detectives in connection with the liquor trade. The recommendations of the Commission were being considered.

asked whether the Government intend to introduce legislation during the present session to consolidate and amend the laws relating to Municipalities within the Union; and, if not, whether legislation will be introduced to amend the Municipal law of the Cape Province?

I have suggested to the Administrators the advisability of appointing a Commission to consider the reform and consolidation of Municipal laws of the various Provinces, with a view to bringing them up to date, and in greater harmony with each other. In view, however, of the difficulties which have been raised against my proposals, I do not intend to take any further steps in this direction for the present.

asked whether the following figures of the death-rate of natives employed on the mines and works of the Transvaal, and imported from territories north of latitude 22 deg., are approximately correct, viz.: In the year ended June 30, 1907, 70.5 per 1,000; in the year ended June 30, 1908, 63.4 per 1,000; in the year ended June 30, 1909, 67.8 per 1,000; in the year ended June 30, 1910, 63.5 per 1,000?

replied that these figures were taken from the Transvaal Blue-book for last year, and, as far as he knew were correct. He wished to point out that these figures represented deaths from disease only.

asked the Minister of Finance whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce legislation repealing those sections in Act No. 39 of 1908, and Act No. 16 of 1909, passed by the late Cape Parliament, which impose stamp duties on certain classes of medicines and toilet preparations; and, if so, when?

said that there was no intention on the part of the Government to introduce legislation on the lines indicated by the hon. member.

asked the Minister of Education whether it is the case that one of the members of the Transvaal Council of Education is at present employed on the staff of the Normal College at Pretoria; and, if so, whether, in view of the fact that one of the functions of the Council is to advise in regard to Normal Colleges, he considers it right that a member of the teaching staff should be placed in a position to advise the Government on matters relating to the department, otherwise than through the head of the department?

said that the vice-principal of the Normal College, Pretoria, was one of the members of the Council of Education; one of the members of the teaching staff of the continuation classes was also connected with the Council. Their being on the Education Council had helped to keep the Council in living touch with educational development in the Transvaal, and was in the general interests of education.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether the Government will publish the accounts of the first year’s working of the Central Agency for Co-operative Societies; (2) whether it is a fact that the salaries of the manager and the staff during the first year’s working were paid by the Agricultural Department, and, if so, whether the amount so expended has been refunded; (3) what rent the Central Agency pays to the South African Railways for the storage of maize at railway stations; (4) to what extent is the credit of the Land Bank involved in any contracts at present being carried out by the agency; and (5) whether the Central Agency at the present time is indebted to (a) The Land Bank; (b) the Government; and, if so, for how much?

asked the hon. member to allow the question to stand over for a day or two.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs when a commencement will be made with the construction of the proposed telephone line from Nylstroom, via Zandrivierspoort, to Zwagershoek, and from Warmbad to Settlers’ Siding.

said that the work was in hand, and would probably be completed in six months’ time.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether the Government will take into consideration the desirability of connecting Amersfoort and Volksrust by telephone?

was understood to say that the work would be completed in six months’ time, it having been authorised.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether, and, if so, when, he will reduce the freight on mealies and other produce carried by the Pankop Railway, in order to make it uniform with the tariff charged by the other Transvaal railways, so as to enable the farmers of the Spring-bokvlakten to place their produce on the principal markets under the same favourable conditions as other Transvaal farmers?

said that there was no intention at present to reduce the rates on the lines mentioned in the motion, but the question would be considered in connection with the general alteration of rates, which he might say was under consideration. (Hear, hear.) Until that time his hon. friend would have to wait; he might have to wait after that time (Laughter.)

asked the Minister of Justice whether the Government intends to introduce legislation during the present session to consolidate and amend the laws relating to the courts of Resident Magistrate within the Union; and, if not, whether legislation will be introduced to amend the law relating to the courts of Resident Magistrate within the Cape Province?

replied that the Government did not intend to introduce legislation for consolidating during the present session the law relating to Resident Magistrate’s Court in the Union, or amending the law in the Cape Province. Information was being collected with regard to framing a law, and this would be submitted to Parliament in due course.

asked the Minister of Justice whether it is his intention, during this summer, to provide the police who serve in the malaria districts of the Transvaal, and more especially on the borders of Waterberg, with better dwellings than the huts in which they are at present living?

replied that the matter was under consideration, and until some definite scheme bad been framed it would be undesirable to erect stone buildings which might afterwards have to be pulled down.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether the Agricultural Department has made any experiments to combat or exterminate the prickly pear by means of the cochineal insect, and if so, with what result; (2) whether he is in a position to state whether any other cheap and effective remedies can be recommended to farmers; and, if so, (a) if any of these remedies are manufactured in this country; (b) to what extent, if any, the Government contributes to the cost of these remedies; and (c) whether the Government will take into favourable consideration the question of supplying farmers with these remedies at a low figure?

The Department of Agriculture has not made any experiments to determine if prickly pear may be destroyed by any kind of cochineal insect, but it has been making inquiries to ascertain the foundation for the recently published story that the prickly pear pest in India was suppressed by such an insect. No reply to inquiries sent to India has yet arrived, but information from other sources removes most of the hope that one might have that South Africa has much to gain by introducing the particular insect said to have worked such wonders in India. The identity of the particular cochineal insect concerned, and likewise the identity of the particular sort of prickly pear which it destroyed, appears to be in doubt. But the destruction took place half a century or more ago, and since then prickly peers of the same sort have again become pestiferous in the region, and the insect is no longer abundant. It is quite possible that the insect is the same as the wild cochineal that is widespread in South Africa on a scraggly sort of prickly pear that grows on waste lands about the towns. This insect does not take to the pest prickly pears, and it has not been noticed to kill down any plants, and the fact that it is unable to kill its foodplant may be accepted as indicating that the form found in India would thrive no better were it introduced. The cheapest, and at the same time most effective, remedy is that known as Jansens preparation. This consists of a solution of lime, sulphur, salt, and arsenate of soda and can be made up by any farmer. The formula, with full directions as to use, was described in the March number of the Gape “Agricultural Journal,” and farmers can obtain full information from the Department of Agriculture. The Government supplies arsenate of soda at cost price, but does not supply or contribute to the cost of the other ingredients. The Government does not see its way to give any further assistance than that already afforded.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether it is the intention of the Government to provide a sum on the Estimates to expropriate the New Gape Central Railway line, or any portion thereof, and, if not during the present session, whether it will be done in the near future?

replied that the Government was not prepared to take over this railway, and he did not think that the Government would be justified in asking Parliament to spend the money at the present time. The time would come, however, when the railway would have to be taken over. It was getting more valuable every day, and the sooner it was taken over the better.

asked the Prime Minister whether the regulations in force on the Natal-Pondoland border as to traffic crossing that border are similar in character and effect to those in operation on the Transkei southern border, and, if not, in what respects do they differ?

The regulations in force on the Natal-Pondoland border are not similar in character and effect to those in operation in other parts of the Transkeian Territories. On the Natal-Pondoland border there is no communication between the Gape and Natal of any description, except that human beings may pass into Natal through Middiedrift, and the postbag is delivered to and from over the border by hand. On the border between the Territories and the Gape proper there is no restriction on the movements of human beings or vehicles. As regards animals, only cattle are prevented from crossing into the Cape proper, The restriction on goats is only in respect of hides, skins, and horns, which must be disinfected before they are removed into the Cape proper, and can moreover enter in three places.

asked the (Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he is aware that under the present system of payment on the Gape lines, railway guards are paid for the time occupied upon each trip only, and are thereby deprived of the opportunity to work full time and earn full wages; and also that this hardship applies to that section of railway employees alone; and (2) whether the Government will give consideration to this grievance in any reorganisation scheme they propose to adopt?

was understood to say that guards on the South African Railways within the Cape Province were paid on a ten hours’ day computed on the actual running time of each trip plus half-an-hour for preparation.

asked the Minister of Finance: (a) When will the sea-borne traffic to the competative area be apportioned so as to faithfully comply with the terms of the Mozambique Treaty; (lb) what is the total tonnage of traffic lost to the points of the Union, due to the percentages of traffic allotted to each Union port under the Mozambique Treaty not having been reached, between April 1, 1909, and October 31, 1910; and (c) is it the intention of the Government to compensate the ports of the Union by such additional readjustment of railway rates as will reimburse them for the loss of a large proportion of their legitimate seaborne traffic?

replied it was only yesterday that they came to an agreement regarding the rates to be charged in future from Union ports to the competitive area. To-morrow (Wednesday) or the following day he would be prepared to make a statement to the House giving full information.

asked the Minister of Mines whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce into the proposed Bill to amend the Mines and Machinery Law a clause limiting underground work on mines to eight hours a day?

in reply, stated that the Government was considering the question of regulating the hours of work in certain parts of the mines. It was hoped to publish a statement that would give the hon. member full information.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) Whether it is a fact that 300 white employees of the East Rand Proprietary Mines, Ltd., were retrenched early in this month; (2) whether the native labour in the employ of that company was also largely reduced at the same time; and (3) whether the Government will introduce legislation at an early date providing for a scheme of insurance against unemployment to ensure to mine and other workers the same liberal treatment as that meted out to Colonel Burns Begg?

I have no official information in regard to this matter, but by the courtesy of the East Rand Proprietary Mines, Ltd., I am informed that 87 White employees have been retrenched by the company, of whom 82 were daily-paid men, and five were on the staff. I have no information as to the reasons for this retrenchment. Secondly, I understand that no retrenchment of natives has taken place. Thirdly, I have no information to give the hon. member on this subject.

asked the Minister of Public Works whether the Government will place a sum on the Estimates for the purpose of either purchasing the present Barkly West Bridge or erecting a new one, or in some way relieving the inhabitante of the Barkly West district from the grievance caused by the exorbitant toll at present payable, and on placing the said inhabitante in the same position as those of other places in the Union?

replied that in terms of the Act of Union, this was a matter for the Administrator and the Provincial Council. He had been informed that it had not been found possible to place an amount on the Estimates for this bridge, but believed the matter would come up for consideration at a later date.

asked the Minister of the Interior whether in the Transvaal Province the Rietfontein Lazaretto and Chronic Sick Home come under the administration of the Union Government, while all other hospitals are under the control of the Provincial Council, and, if so, why?

Both these institutions have been controlled by the Administrator since the 31st of May last.

asked the Minister of Public Works: (a) Whether he has taken notice of a report by one of his inspectors who, about a month ago, inspected the buildings of the Magistrate’s Court at Wolmaransstad, condemned the same as being a danger to the lives of the officials, and, as a precautionary measure, had the building propped up; (b) whether he does not agree with his predecessor and the Prime Minister that new and suitable buildings are urgently required; and (c) whether provisions for this purpose will be made on the Estimates?

The Court-house was inspected by an officer of the Public Works Department, at the end of October, when it was found that the north gable had bulged, and was in danger of collapsing. This has been propped up, and the building rendered safe for a few months Secondly, I do not agree with the Prime Minister that the new buildings are urgently required. Thirdly, money has not been specially provided in the Estimates for the present year, as they had been framed before the building reached a dangerous condition. However, in view of the urgency of providing a new building plans will at once be prepared and arrangements will be made for the work to be gone on with.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether the Government is prepared to start next year with the inoculation of horses against horse sickness which prevails in the Transvaal, and, if so, on what terms?

replied that Government hoped very soon to be in a position to arrange for the inoculation of horses against horse-sickness, and anticipated similar success to that achieved in regard to mules.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether it is the intention of the Government to proceed with the erection of a lighthouse at Slangkop, and, if so, when?

No decision has been come to.

asked the Minister of Public Works if it is the intention of the Government to provide a station for wireless telegraphy in the Cape Peninsula, and, if so, when and in what locality?

It has been decided to erect a wireless telegraph station in the Cape Peninsula, and the site selected, after careful investigation, is at Slangkop, near Kommetje. A contract has been entered into with Messrs. Marconi and Co., and it is anticipated that the station will be in working order within a period of from three to four months. It is a five kilowatt station, and will have a day range of four hundred miles. At night the range will be from 600 to 1,600 miles.

called attention to an error in the Division list for the “Ayes” on the motion yesterday in Committee of the Whole House when the Division took place on the amendment proposed by Mr. Wessels in the Appellate Division Further Jurisdiction Bill, on page 117 of the Votes, in which the names of Messrs. Keyter, Brain and C. J. J. Joubert do not appear although they so voted while the name of Sir Henry Juta was erroneously inserted therein, although he was not present.

having called upon the Tellers for the “Ayes” who examined the list, they reported that the names of Messrs. Keyter, Brain and Joubert had been inadvertently omitted therefrom, and that the name of Sir Henry Juta had been erroneously included therein, and the list was ordered to be corrected accordingly.

I should like to call the attention of the House to Notice of Motion No. I on page 122 of the Votes, standing in the name of the hon. member for Bloemfontein (Mr. C. L. Botha), and Notice of Motion No. II, on page 124 of the Votes, standing in the name of the hon. member for Woodstock (Dr. Hewat). Under the Rules of the Late House of Assembly of the Cape of Good Hope, it was the practice for a private member when desiring to propose a motion involving expenditure, to move for an Address to His Excellency the Governor for leave to consider such motion. If suck motion were carried, it rested entirely with the Government to make a recommendation to the Governor asking for his authority, or to leave the matter where it was if they deemed it proper to do so. The rules of the late Cape House of Assembly now govern the procedure of this House, but where these rules are in conflict with the provisions of the South Africa Act, 1909, the latter, of course, must prevail. I have for some time past given careful attention to the provisions of the new Constitution and particularly to those dealing with the finances of the country, and, although at first sight the proposed motions appeared to me to be out of order, I instructed the Clerk to leave them on the paper so that, if necessary, a definite ruling upon this important aspect of our procedure could be given from the chair for the guidance of the House. After giving the most careful consideration to this matter I have come to the conclusion that the terms of section 62 of the South Africa Act are so explicit as to leave no room for doubt that it was the deliberate intention of those who framed the Act to preclude private members for the future from bringing in motions in any form, the effect of which would be the expenditure of public money. In the British North America Act, 1867, a similar provision to that contained in the Sleuth Africa Act is to be found, but with this modification, however, that in that Act the words “adopt or pass” are used instead of the stronger words “originate or pass” which appear in section 62 of the South Africa Act, and I learn from the authorities that in Canada “no principle is better understood than the constitutional obligation that rests upon the Executive Government of alone initiating measures imposing charges upon the public exchequer.” (Bourinot, 3rd Edition, page 568.) Although, therefore, the motions referred to, if carried in their present form, would not in my opinion have the effect of authorising the expenditure of money, they undoubtedly in the words of the Act “originate an address for the appropriation of public revenue” and I, therefore, rule that the proposed motions are out of order and must be discharged.

moved for a return showing: (1) The approximate cost of fencing erected or in process of erection by the Government in connection with the East Coast fever: (a) In Elliotdale district; (b) along the Kei; and (c) from the Kei eastwards. (2) The number of: (a) Cattle dipping tanks; (b) spraying machines in existence in (i) Elliotdale district; and (ii.) each of the other districts of the Transkei Proper and Tembuland; (c) the approximate cost of the erection of the said tanks and spraying machines; (d) the approximate cost of dipping operations at the said tanks and spraying machines per month; (e) the amount contributed towards the cost named in (2) (c) and (d) by (i.) the Transkeian Territories General Council; and (ii.) by the Government. (3) The number of dipping supervisors in each district. He said he thought the information would be useful as an indication of what had been done by the Government in that part of the country. In respect to a compulsory Dipping Act, the Transkei might be said to be ahead of a great many other parts of the country. He thought the Government might co-operate with the people by seeing that the utmost use was made of the tanks that had been built. They knew that dipping cattle once a month, or twice a month was not of very much use to prevent East Coast fever from attacking them. They should be dipped at least three times a month, and to ensure that they must have more tanks. He hoped the Government would aid in this matter, and at least co-operate with the people there. With regard to the fence along the Kei, which fenced in purely a coastal district, there was a difference between that and the other fence round an affected area. The fence along the Kei was about 80 to 100 miles in length and was for the benefit of the whole country. He was glad it was not the intention of the Government to make that fence a charge against the Territories. In conclusion, he would be glad if some hon. member would move as a rider to his motion that the district of Griqualand, east of Pondoland, be included.

seconded.

(4) The same details as above with regard to the Districts of East Griqualand and Pondoland.

seconded.

The motion as amended was agreed to.

moved: That the petition of B. de Villiers and 3,420 others, being Civil Servants of the late Cape Government, and now of the Union of South Africa, presented to the House on the 15th instant, and praying that the 5 per cent. deductions made from their salaries for the year ending June 30, 1909, should be restored to them, be referred to the Government for inquiry and report. The hon. member said the petitioners only asked that a simple act of justice should be done to them. During the period of depression through which the Cape Colony passed, in addition to the ordinary taxation levied, the Civil Servants bore an extra burden in having a percentage of their salaries deducted as well. It was only the direst necessity which made the Government introduce what must have been to them a very obnoxious measure. The principle that at the earliest possible moment the deductions should be restored to the Civil Servants was approved by the late Cape Parliament. A few months before entering the Union the right hon. member for Victoria West introduced a measure providing for the return of the deductions which had been made for the year 1909-10, but at that time the right hon. member was not in a position to tell the House that there was going to be a financial surplus of such a magnitude on entering Union that it would be possible to restore more than the deductions for the one year. It was the universal opinion in the late Cape Parliament that they were going to enter into Union on the basis that revenue and expenditure should meet, but it was not the intention of that Parliament to hand over to the Union Government a large sum of money taken from the pockets of the Civil Servants of the Cape. After the payment of the deductions for 1909-10 there was still a surplus of over £177,000, and if the deductions for 1908-09 had been paid back, the Cape Colony would still have shown some surplus on entering the Union. The surplus actually handed over was simply one swollen by the amounts taken from the pockets of Civil Servants, and he hoped the Government in those circumstances would take into favourable consideration the petition that had been presented. The other Provinces made more liberal provision for their Civil Servants than the Cape Colony was able to do, so that no injustice would be done to either the Transvaal or Orange Free State if the prayer of the petitioners were acceded to.

seconded.

said that after the mover of the motion had heard what he had to say he would probably think it better to withdraw his motion. The hon. member moved that the petition should be referred to the Government for inquiry and report. To that extent he (Mr. Hull) had no hesitation in committing the Government. The Government had no objection to inquiring and reporting, but he could hold out absolutely no hope to the hon. member that the prayer of the petitioners would be acceded to. The position was a perfectly simple one. Before leaving, the Government of the late Cape Colony made the fullest inquiry into the matter, and came to a deliberate decision upon the investigations made, and he thought it would be an evil thing for the Government of the Union, or even for the Union Parliament, to sit in judgment upon the decision arrived at by that Government.

The hon. member said that the other colonies had made more liberal provision for their Civil Servants than the Cape Colony; but so far as the late Transvaal and the late Orange River Colony were concerned, no provision of that kind at all was made. In those colonies no salaries of Civil Servants were increased, and no pension allowances were increased. They had their rights preserved under the laws of the colony under which they were, and the provisions of those laws were observed. The hon. member would be well advised to withdraw the motion.

said it was distinctly understood that if the conditions of the Colony improved the 5 per cent. deductions were to be returned. The other colonies put their Civil Servants in the position they ought to have been before they entered Union. When the Cape handed over £170,000 to the Union, he felt that the first act of the new Parliament would be to carry out the obligation which the Cape Parliament should have fulfilled. It only meant £140,000 to carry out what was a moral promise.

My hon. friend talks about a moral obligation and a promise. Where was the moral obligation, and who held out the promise? The deductions took place by Act of Parliament, which you will have to repeal in order to restore the deductions, and there was no shadow of a promise. These statements do well enough on an election platform, but here they are no use whatever. (Ministerial cheers.)

Perhaps the hon. gentleman will take his mind back to the last day of the last session of the Cape Parliament. He will remember my getting up—not in this place, hut in another place —and pointing out our gratification at the possibility at that time of balancing our revenue and expenditure. We were delighted later on to find that it was not a question of balancing, but through the economical management of my right hon. friend there was what we considered a large surplus for the Cape Colony. But when it was a question of balancing I asked the right hon. gentleman, practically in the words of the motion, that should there be any more money be would take into consideration the 5 per cent, deducted from the salaries of the Civil Servants of the Cape, at a time when we could not afford to pay them their full salaries, and certainly they had the promise that when we could we would pay them. That was the moral obligation. The promise came from the right hon. member for Victoria West, who certainly said he would take into consideration the request made at that time. I do not complain of the attitude of the hon. member for Barberton. He is Minister of Finance for the Union, and he says he is not justified in paying out money from the Union to one Province more than another. I only wish that instead of yielding to the temptation for further praise for economic government, this obligation had been considered, and that before—

There was no obligation.

And that before the moneys of the Cape were handed into the Union Exchequer, they should have been used to carry out what we considered an obligation to the Cape Civil Servants. I hope the Minister of Finance will not take a severe view of this. After all, all that the motion says is: “Will the Government take into consideration?” If the Government will only do so, I feel sure the right hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) will approach the Government and use his utmost influence to get the Government to carry out as a favour only that obligation which we on this side of the House consider we owe to the Cape Civil Servants, and that promise of consideration which he evidently forgot to give attention to. (Opposition cheers.)

said that some of the members of the Cape Civil Service lost more than 5 per cent., but the motion did not propose that they should receive any reimbursement. As to the promise supposed to have been made by the right hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman), he (Mr. Fremantle) did not think that any such promise was made. Injustice, however, had been done by giving back to those who had lost little, and giving nothing to those who had lost much. Harm was done the Civil Service by speeches such as had been made that afternoon on its behalf, and if that sort of thing went on the Civil Service would be prejudiced, and a feeling against them would be engendered.

said it had been suggested that the Civil Servants were like the horse-leech’s daughter, but as a matter of fact they were only asking for the return of their own. (Opposition cheers.) The hon. member then quoted from “Hansard” to show what had transpired when the question was discussed by the Cape Parliament.

said he wished to ask the Minister of Finance exactly what his attitude was. He began by saying that he was going to accept his motion. He said he saw no harm in it, but then he heard same encouraging “Hear, hears,” from his (the Minister’s) side of the House, and began to have a doubt in his mind. He then indicated to him (the speaker) that he would advise him to withdraw his motion, and then he ended up by saying that he refused to accept it. What harm there could be in his motion he did not know. He was simply there voicing the opinion of 3,422 persons, who had petitioned the House; he did not bring forward his motion in order to carry favour with his constituents, as sugested by the hon. member for Uitenhage. The petition was signed by Civil Servants throughout the length and breadth of the Gape Province, and if time had allowed, every Civil Servant in the Province who was affected would have signed it. He hoped that the Minister of Finance would accept the motion.

put the motion, and declared it negatived.

called for a division, but afterwards withdrew it.

moved that the railway freight on Transvaal coal be so reduced as to enable mines to supply markets along the coast and elsewhere. His object, he said, was to reduce the tariff to such an extent as to render competition with foreign collieries possible. At present the Transvaal mines could not compete, as far as other parts of the Union were concerned. The coal-owners were not clamouring for new railway lines. All they asked for was an equitable adjustment of rates. At present hundreds of trucks went back to Delagoa Bay empty. Surely it would pay the Government to make those trucks carry coal, though it might be at a, low rate. All along the Eastern line in the Transvaal coal mines existed, but the owners complained bitterly of their inability to avail themselves of railway communication, owing to high tariffs. The coal industry was second in importance in the Transvaal, and it was the duty of Parliament to foster it. He trusted that the Government would favourably consider the matter.

seconded. He drew attention to the fact that the Transvaal contained large coal measures that were unworkable at present, on account of the high railway rates. The Witbank-Delagoa rate was 6s. 1d. per ton, which made competition in foreign markets impossible for Transvaal coal-owners. Yet the Transvaal could produce coal enough not merely for all requirements of South Africa, but for a large export as well. All hon. members would therefore see that something should be done to encourage the development of this industry.

said that the railway rate on Transvaal coal was as low as possible, even now. Thanks to that, Transvaal coal-owners were able to compete everywhere within the Union. He was considering specially low rates for bunker coal. He thought it would be found possible to supply steamers with South African coal, if only local merchants would confine their attention to what happened within the Union, instead of studying so closely what happened elsewhere. In the Cape, South African coal was used almost exclusively for domestic purposes. The motion was not so simple as it appeared. If it were agreed to the Railway Board would have to reduce the rate from the Transvaal to Durban, and this reduction might cause them to raise the mealie rate, so as to avoid a loss on that section of the railway system. The Board were at present considering a revision of the whole of the tariff. He would therefore urge the mover not to press the matter. It was a dangerous matter to come to Parliament asking for a reduction of railway rates, for if one member asked for one thing, some other member would be sure to ask for something else, and though he admitted that it was desirable to carry coal at as low a rate as possible, it should not be forgotten that the present rate was very low indeed.

pointed out that the motion, as he understood it, bad for its object not so much the Cheapening of bunker coal as the transport at a low rate, of coal, to be used in connection with agriculture. The rate on bunker coal was low enough as it was. A large quantity of coal was consumed nowadays for agricultural machinery. Owing to the high price of coal, however, the use of such machinery was discouraged, and the development of agriculture in the Cape suffered accordingly. He cordially supported the motion. The matter thoroughly deserved being brought to the Minister’s attention. South Africa, as a whole, possessed an enormous asset in the shape of its coa1, but the Gape was short of this article, and this should be an inducement to the Board to reduce the rate.

said he hoped that his hon. friend would see his way clear to make some alteration on the lines suggested. He would say that he thought the hon. the mover would have done better if he dealt with the coal mines in the whole of the Union, instead of only with the coal mines of the Transvaal. He did not agree with his hon. friend that the coal rates were very cheap. He thought that one of the first things the Railway Board should have done was to have tried to make some alteration in the rates in regard to coal. He thought it would be recognised that they could not get proper development of industries in the country unless they had the power to work those industries. He went on to refer to the fact that many farmers were desirous of taking up steam cultivation; but this had been found impossible, owing to the heavy rates for the carriage of coal. They had several rates in operation at the present time. There was one rate for the Cape Province, and there were others in the other Provinces, and if his hon. friend for Willowmore desired to get coal from another part into the Cape Province he was subjected to three different ratings. He went on to refer to the carriage of coal from Natal, saying that there was one rate over the berg, one over the C.S.A.R., and another rate when it came to the Cape Province. Hon. members might be surprised to know that coal which cost at Dundee 9s. a ton to the private consumer, when it got as far as Britstown cost £2 a ton, and then on top of that, transport cost had to be added. He knew his hon. friend the Minister for Railways had gone into the question, and he hoped that he would bring the matter before the Railway Board. He hoped that the Board would recognise that neither the industrial or the agricultural development of the country could proceed without a cheap and a good supply of fuel. He knew that the matter could be approached on business principles, for by reducing the rates and encouraging industries they would secure traffic over the lines that, under ordinary circumstances, it would never be possible to get.

said he regretted that his hon. friend opposite (Dr. Smartt) did not adopt the attitude he now took up when he was able to exercise some influence.

It’s a farthing rate to Molteno.

We are coming to that. In his (the speaker’s) humble constituency there were some coal mines yielding not a very high class of coal, and still a class of coal good for household purposes. They were unable to send their coal to East London then because of his hon. friend’s rates on the railways, and those rates still ran. (Laughter.) And then the opportunity for complying with the request was better then than it was at the present time. In those days there were any amount of trucks lying idle. He could have done something, and he did nothing.

What was the rate?

Thats not the—

What was the rate?

A farthing per ton per mile. In conclusion, he said that in those days there was a better opportunity for such ta change, and though his hon. friend had not done anything, he welcomed the present attitude of his hon. friend, and hoped that it would be maintained should he get into power again.

said he hoped, seeing the discussion that had taken place, that his hon. friend who had moved would alter it so that the matter might be considered by the Railway Board. For the House to give instructions would mean that it would take over the executive power in the matter.

suggested that as the matter had been thoroughly discussed, the motion should be allowed to drop. At the same time he would like to say that these business principles were going to the wind very fast. If these tariffs were to be adopted it would leave the Treasurer very little when he was in need of money. He would not have been surprised if other articles had been added to the list. If the example was once set by passing a resolution, practically instructing what should be done, then he thought they were embarking upon a policy that the House would regret in the future. He hoped the hon. member would withdraw the motion, as he could assure him that the matter would receive attention.

The motion was withdrawn.

moved that the correspondence and papers relating to the ocean mail contract be laid upon the table. The mover said he did not think he need offer any excuse for asking for the information. It was a question that interested the people of the country, and especially those connected with commercial matters. He might say at once that he had not brought forward the motion with any idea of embarrassing hon. gentlemen who sat opposite in their dealings in this matter, but what he asked them to do was to give the House such information as they could without prejudicing their position. It might be to strengthen their hands because they all knew that the other parties to the bargain were keen business people, and although they recognised the services which they had rendered to South Africa, at the same time it must be recognised that it was an important matter, and that those in the House might be able to strengthen the hands of the Government. Proceeding, the hon. member quoted replies that had been made on the subject last session in the Transvaal House of Assembly, and said it seemed to him that the Government were well advised in putting off the matter until the Union Government was in a position to deal with it. But as the last contract expired in September last it was evident they had now less than two years to run before the present arrangement was past and, therefore, it was necessary now to provide for a future arrangement. Well, he thought there was no doubt that there was a general feeling that the service should if possible be accelerated. That feeling was not confined to this country. The question was fully debated at the Imperial Conference held in England in 1907, at which General Botha and Dr. Jameson were present and, he believed, a resolution was proposed by (Sir Wilfrid Laurier, and supported by the Prime Ministers of Australia and New Zealand, that in the opinion of the Conference the interests of the Empire demanded the best and quickest means of inter-communication between the different portions of the Empire. He did not think it was necessary to argue the point that closer communication between the different portions of the Empire, and more especially between the colonies and the Mother Country was desirable. They had seen more lately that the Governments of New Zealand and Canada had taken this matter up, and only lately the subject had been given a considerable prominence. If they looked back to what had happened as regarded their own service they must admit that very little improvement had taken place. Twelve years ago boats that left Cape Town on the same day as now arrived in England a day earlier. Afterwards, the two competing companies were amalgamated. The Government of the Cape Colony did not take the steps which they undoubtedly should have taken in making their contracts to prevent that amalgamation. However that might be, the amalgamation took place, and as the immediate result the service was lengthened, so that after 12 years of so-called progress they now made the journey a day longer, and the public had to pay more for the privilege. There was no doubt something might be done at present, without great injustice to the shipping companies. Coal was cheaper than it used to be, and, what was more important, the payment which shipping companies got for conveying coal produced in this country had increased enormously. The payment made by the Transvaal coal companies alone was something like £80,000 a year. He thought that what they wanted was not in any way to deal unfairly with the present shipping companies, who had undoubtedly rendered considerable service to the country, but, as was pointed out in the discussion in the Transvaal Parliament, it was certainly not desirable to sacrifice everything to an accelerated service. What he thought should be done was: the Government should investigate the matter very carefully, and see if the shipping companies could make better terms. There was no getting away from the fact that the shipping companies had done very well for themselves and, although, as he had said, they did not want to take any unfair advantage of them, they should, as od business men, make the best of the position, and it behoved the Government to be on their guard. He hoped the Government would look into it, and sun posed the matter would not now come before the Minister of Finance, but would be dealt with by the Minister for Public Works, unless it would be the Minister of Commerce. (Laughter.) He asked the Government to give the information asked for.

seconded.

wished to say that he quite appreciated the spirit which animated the hon. member (Mr. Chaplin) in putting the motion, for he told them it was more for the purpose of strengthening the hands of the Government in this matter than anything else, and he must say he agreed with a great deal of what he had said. Anyone in the House would know it was a difficult question. The hon. gentleman asked that certain information be given. Well, he might say that in October, 1900, a contract was entered into with the ocean mail contract people, which expired in September, 1910. The subsidy which was paid under that contract was £135,000 per annum. In 1908 tenders were called for a new contract, returnable in London on October 13, 1908. No tenders were received in response to the advertisements, save and except one from the present carriers of their mails, and that particular tender did not comply with the conditions which the Governments of South Africa required. Negotiations were entered into, and he was sorry to say that up to now they had been unsuccessful, in so far as entering into a new contract was concerned. As a tentative measure, an agreement had been come to by which the contract was extended for two years, with the option of cancellation by either party giving twelve months’ notice. A further bonus had to be paid by the Government of £15,000 a year. He might say that negotiations were still pending. Correspondence of an important and confidential nature had transpired between the Governments of South Africa and the steamship company. In this correspondence were also confidential instructions to the Agents-General in London and their replies. The Imperial Post Office was interested in the matter, inasmuch as they contributed a considerable amount of the subsidy, and, therefore, had to be consulted. He did not think that it would be in the interest of the company or the Government to lay the papers on the table at the present time. The Government was quite alive to the points Mr. Chaplin had raised, in so far as being on their guard and to get an accelerated service was concerned. So if the papers were laid on the table, he did not think it would be in the interests of the Government, nor would it help the negotiations, and he did not think the Imperial Post Office would approve if they disclosed the negotiations which had taken place and were still going on. He hoped Mr. Chaplin would see that the best interests would be served by not laying the papers on the table. He felt that if Mr. Chaplin saw the correspondence, he would decide that it was not in the public interest that they should be laid on the table.

said that perhaps the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs would inform the House of the character of the negotiations which had taken place, because if he read the papers he would find a very important statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in England, who said that the question was one in which the Imperial Government could assist the colonies. They could approach the companies with a view to meeting the desires of the colonies. Then they were given to understand that in so far as the desire of Australia, New Zealand, and Canada to increase the speed of ocean carrying was concerned, the Imperial Government were prepared to consider the proposal. The impression left on their minds was that there was a desire on the part of the Imperial Government to assist in that matter. The Chancellor of the Exchequer even went further, and said it was not only a matter of mail carrying alone, it was a matter of cheapening the carriage of goods in the Empire. There might be an objection on the part of the Government to lay the papers on the table; but he wanted them to feel that they had the support of the Whole House in the matter. Ten years ago ships were running at a greater pace between here and Southampton than they were now. The Union was in an entirely different position than the colonies were. The whole freight of the Union, so far as Government supplies were concerned, could be used as a great lever. Then there were the gold transport, the supplies for the harbours of the Union, and of those Municipalities which received financial support from the Union. These could be used as a lever for the purpose of securing a faster service. The Treasurer had in his hands a tremendous lever—not to penalise the company which in the past had rendered good service—but it was about time that they should do all they possibly could to get a faster service. He hoped the Minister of Finance would see that, as he was giving the company what was practically a monopoly—the carriage of the mails—the people would be protected, and that iniquitous system of rebates, which had kept down competition, would be done away with. (Cheers.)

said Government had been in communication with the Imperial Post Office on the matter, and so far they were quite in accord. He quite appreciated the various advantages that ought to be derived from a new contract; but it was surprising when one was about to make an agreement, to see how many of these advantages vanished. He also acknowledged the great services the mail company had rendered to this country; but it was impossible to make an agreement unless the company consented to it. There were methods which could be employed, which he would rather not speak of to-day: but hon. members could rest assured that everything that could be done would be done. He hoped that the agreement would be such that the House could approve of it.

You won’t do anything definite until you submit the agreement to the House?.

I don’t intend to submit the proposals to the House for ratification. The Cape Government hitherto has always entered info the agreement.

Subject to ratification by the House.

thought they were getting on to rather dangerous ground. It would be a mistake on the part of the House now to lay down a definite rule that Government should negotiate, subject to ratification by Parliament. He would like to see the approval of the House obtained before Government affixed its signature to the agreement, but he would not give any undertaking that Government would submit the contract to the House for ratification.

That is a new doctrine. (Hear, hear.) Every agreement of this kind must be ratified by Parliament.

By leave of the House, Mr. CHAPLIN then withdrew his motion.

moved that a Select Committee be appointed to consider, the Estimates of Expenditure to be defrayed during the ten months ending March 31, 1911.

seconded.

said that when he put the motion on the paper he understood that his hon. friend (Mr. Hull) was opposed to it, but after that gentleman’s speech of yesterday he (Mr. Walton) understood that that was not the case. Between the two proposals there were only differences of detail. He proposed two committees—Mr. Hull proposed one. The other point was with regard to the amount of work the committee should do each year. If the committee found it could go through the whole of the Estimates in one year, why not let it? (Hear, hear.) Why not let the Estimates be referred to the Select Committee on Public Accounts?

I will move an amendment. Proceeding, he said it was quite clear that they were in no disagreement on principle. He had it in his mind to move for a Public Accounts Committee to which also could be referred the question of the Estimates. There was one very important point upon which he could not agree with his hon. friend, and that was that the Estimates for the present period for 10 months should be referred to the Public Accounts Committee. That part of the motion he could not accept, and would move an amendment to omit all the words after “that,” for the purpose of inserting the following: “ It is desirable that the Public Accounts Committee should consider such part of the Estimates of Expenditure for the ensuing financial year as the committee may determine.” That, he thought, would meet the two paints raised by his hon. friend. It would be seen that the material difference between his amendment and his hon. friend’s motion was in respect to the Estimates for the current period of ten months, and when his hon. friend reflected he would see that no good purpose would be served by referring these particular Estimates to any Accounts Committee, because, if he would recollect, the estimate of expenditure from May 31 last to March 31 next represented expenditure, the bulk of which had already been expended. It represented expenditure that would have been incurred by the time the Estimates had been passed, and what good purpose could be served by referring Estimates of Expenditure, of which seven-tenths or even more had been expended, to the Accounts Committee? Practically speaking, the whole of the Estimates which were laid on the table the other day represented commitments entered into by Government, and therefore he said he could not see what good purpose could be served by referring them to a committee. Another thing was that these Estimates were not prepared, as Estimates usually were, with something to go upon. The Government had to start on May 31 with entirely a new state of affairs. They had to amalgamate the four Estimates of Expenditure into one, and he had no doubt that if they were gone through some of them would show too large an establishment, but they could not help it. They had no time to cut down everything to the bone, as his hon. friend would say, but they hoped that gradually all the surplus Civil Servants would be absorbed in consequence of the development of the country, and they considered it would be a wrong policy to get rid of those Civil Servants. That was another reason why no good purpose could be effected by referring the Estimates for the present ten months, of which on y three months were yet to run, to the committee. There was another reason, and that was in reference to the rising of the House about the middle of next month He doubted very much whether before the middle of December these Estimates would have received the sanction of the House. If they had not been passed, then it meant that he would have to ask the House to pass a Partial Appropriation Bill to carry on until the end of the financial year, and the power conferred upon the Government under the South Africa Act would be renewed for a further period. For these reasons he moved his amendment.

seconded.

said that he regretted that his hon. friend had adopted that course. It was quite true that so far as the Estimates for the present ten months were concerned, they represented moneys which had already to a great extent been expended, but the House must remember that the Estimates for the current year formed a basis—

They don’t.

said that they did form a basis of expenditure, and if the House passed these Estimates and subsequently passed an Appropriation Bill, then the salaries of Civil Servants became fixed salaries. There was no doubt about that. He did not know who had been giving his hon. friend his legal opinion—

Who has been giving you yours?

said that legal authorities had established it beyond question that as soon as a man’s salary was fixed by Act of Parliament they could not reduce his salary except under certain conditions laid down in the Civil Service Act. He wished to warn his hon. friend against falling into that trap. He considered it would be an advantage to have these Estimates carefully examined before they were included in an Appropriation Bill. Let them delay and go slowly.

said that he seconded the motion of the Minister of Finance, although personally he should have been very glad had the present Estimates been referred to a Budget Committee. To that the Government were strongly opposed, and he must say that there was some reason in what they said on account of the lapse of time that had taken place, and if they were to examine these things they would then have the work of the Budget Committee overlapping, and they would be examining two sets of Estimates. There was that to be said for the Government. He was one of those people who always liked to meet a person half way, and his friend (Mr. Walton) must see that the Government had given them practically what they had asked for, that was, that the ensuing Estimates would be referred to a Select Committee. He thought his hon. friend might be very well satisfied with having carried the Government with him to a very great extent. He was sorry that they could not go a little further, but there were objections and difficulties and he thought his hon. friend (Mr. Walton) might very well accept the Minister of Finance’s proposal, and be thankful that they bad got so much. (Laughter.)

said that there were a good many things in the Estimates which would require to be inquired into. For instance, there was the question of incidental expenses. There was not a single vote in which there were not incidental expenses, and how was the Auditor-General going to keep a check on expenditure when items were put down under incidental expenses? Take the question of magistrates also. They were all down in one lump sum in the schedule, and there was nothing to show how the money was going to be spent. One hundred and eighty-eight magistrates were down for £104,000 expenditure, but there was nothing in the schedule to show exactly how that money was going to be spent. The consequence was that the Auditor-General could not keep any proper control over expenditure, and that was characteristic of the whole of the Estimates. All these things might be inquired into, and put into better shape by the Public Accounts Committee. There was another argument in favour of referring the Estimates to the Public Accounts Committee, and that was that the Government would get them passed through the House much more quickly than otherwise. There were scores of things upon which hon. members would want information. If they got that information upstairs they would have to ask for it in the House, and that would lead to endless discussion. In the interests really of economy of time the Estimates should be referred to this committee. By the Budget Committee going carefully into the Estimates, several matters would be dealt with on a better basis.

said he thought a point had been overlooked, and that was that dealing with the first Estimates they were dealing with past expenditure. The whole position from a legal point of view was anomalous. The Government had been acting under the South Africa. Act, which empowered them to spend money as they deemed fit, and they had been doing so. Most of this money when the Budget was through Parliament would have been spent, and, therefore, it did seem rather a waste of time to discuss with too great minute detail these Estimates. The money had been spent under legal authority, and that was the reason why his hon. friend (Mr. Hull) proposed that the Estimates for the ensuing financial year should be referred to the Public Accounts Committee, and not the Estimates for the period from the 31st of May to the 31st of March. As regards the Estimates now before the House, it must be plain to the hon. member that it would serve no useful purpose Whatever to refer them to the committee proposed.

said it appeared that the Minister for Internal Affairs and the Minister for Finance were now taking up a different attitude from that adopted the other day. The Hon. the Minister for Finance now told the House that the Government had no time to make up proper Estimates, and the Estimates submitted were pro forma. Surely these Estimates for £13,000,000, which were made up in a hurry—

What does pro forma mean?

“In a hurry.” (Laughter.)

said that if those Estimates were pro forma; if sufficient care had not been taken over their preparation, then there was all the more reason for referring them to a committee. Considerable time would be saved if they were referred to a committee, because otherwise there was no doubt a great deal of time would be taken up in examining them in the House.

said the Government were obliged for the definition of pro forma given by the hon. member for Georgetown, and would remember it in future. The Estimates were not estimates framed in a hurry. They, were transition Estimates. There was no difference in the position taken up by the Government to-day and in that taken up yesterday. The contention of the hon. member who moved for their reference to a Select Committee was that they were Estimates which would form a basis for expenditure in the future. That was a wrong contention. In regard to the service at the present time, they were in a transition stage, and many alterations and new provisions would doubtless have to be made in the future. The hon. member for Port Elizabeth has alluded to the danger of fixing increases of salaries permanently. In the first place, there were very few individual cases in which increases of salaries had been given. The increases which had been given were almost all entirely due to what was called the scale increments. Increases giver otherwise than on that scale—and he thought they were less than half a dozen— were, of course, open to discussion in the House. The final Court of Appeal in such matters was always on the floor of the House. In conclusion, he said he hoped that the point would not be pressed.

was proceeding to put the amendment, when

said he had noticed that several increments had been made in the case of Cape Civil Servants. By whose authority had this been done?

was understood to say that these were scale increments.

By what law?

was understood to reply that the practice would have been followed in the Cape and Transvaal Legislatures had the Provinces been separated at the present time.

asked if there would be any schedules supplied with the Estimates, when these came before the House. Let him take the question of magistrates. No less than 188 magistrates were bulked together at a certain sum of money, and there was no possibility of knowing the salaries of these officials throughout the Union. In the Estimates of the late Cape House, all these magistrates’ salaries were set down specifically, so that there was an opportunity of comparison.

said that this point did not come within the subject matter of the motion.

said he thought that the subject matter of the debate was that the Estimates should be referred to a committee. He thought that an amendment had been moved to the effect that the present Estimates should not be referred to the committee. Under these circumstances, was he not in order in asking the Minister whether schedules would not be supplied, in order to give hon. members an opportunity of seeing how the Government had expended and proposed spending the money?

said that the hon. member was not in order, and added that the Minister of Finance would not be in order if he replied to such a question.

said he only wished to call attention to the amount of time that could be saved if these schedules were prepared. Now, the vote to Agricultural Societies was shown in one large sum. Hon. members who took an interest in these matters liked to know the societies to which this money had been devoted. Even hon. members of the other side of the House might desire to know how this money was to be expended. Thirteen millions was the amount of money involved, and he thought that the House should have better proof than the bare Estimates placed before Parliament. At one time his hon. friends, the Ministers for Railways and Native Affairs, used to be very strong on sending these accounts to the Budget Committee for close scrutiny, and it seemed curious that they had changed so suddenly in their new surroundings. (Laughter.)

said that the Controller and Auditor-General had no power to inquire into the accounts of the four Provinces up to May 31, 1910, and he pointed out that extraordinary warrants had been issued. That being the case, and if, in addition, they had no Estimates Committee, there would be no check on this expenditure. He pointed out very strongly and forcibly that all the accounts of the Province, both before and after the accomplishment of Union, should be subjected to the fullest scrutiny.

The motion, as amended, was agreed to.

moved that all correspondence on the subject of the admission into the Transvaal free of duty of sugar produced in the Province of Mozambique, as well as the letter addressed to the Prime Minister of the then Colony of Natal do the Prime Minister of the Transvaal, dated May 11, 1909, and the letter dated April 1, 1910, from the Prime Minister of Natal to the Prime Minister of the Transvaal, be laid upon the table.

seconded.

said that facility was given to a neighbouring State not forming part of the Union, which, by reason of certain compensations given, was now enjoying privileges which aided it in its development. These developments were fostered by the fact that the State referred to enjoyed privileges in the country to which it belonged, which enabled it to send a large portion of its product under enormous advantages to a market which was not open to the Union. He was, therefore, desirous of obtaining from the Prime Minister correspondence which had taken place—not only that which specifically referred to the matter in motion, but some other, which he understood had taken place in regard to the question itself, and particularly to a European Board established in the Brussels Convention, which had given a decision as to the amount of benefit in the establishment of bonuses enjoyed by the producers of sugar. He hoped the right hon. gentleman would have no objections to furnishing them with the fullest information on the subject, and allowing them to see all the correspondence which had taken place in regard to the question. It threatened to impose serious disadvantages on the Union, and particularly the sugar planters in Natal.

said there was not the least objection on the part of the Government to lay the correspondence on the table, but he might 6ay there was other correspondence in addition to that asked for, and that would also be laid on the table, so that hon. members would have the fullest opportunity of knowing what the position was. He understood Mr. Maydon to say that the Portuguese were enjoying privileges which they should not have.

replied that he said Portugal enjoyed privileges which were not open to sugar planters in the Union.

said that with regard to that he might say that the planters of Loureneo Marques were entitled by virtue of an agreement which had been in existence for 20 or 25 years to the mutual admission of sugar. That agreement was subsequently, after the Transvaal Republic was taken over by the British Empire, re-enacted by a modus vivendi entered into between the Transvaal and the Portuguese Government. Subsequently in April of 1909 that modus vivendi was superseded by another agreement, and that agreement was entered into with the full concurrence of all the other colonies in British South Africa, and by virtue of that agreement sugar grown in the Mozambique Colony was entitled to be admitted free of Customs duty into the Province of the Transvaal.

said there was only one point that arose, and that was that the Transvaal, which was in the Union now, was under treaty obligations to impose countervailing duties wherever bonuses were given on sugar, and he wanted to know whether those treaty obligations were to be put in force or not. If the case was as he thought, the Union, he believed, was bound by treaty to impose a countervailing duty, and it was on that point he hoped the correspondence would throw some light.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that in the opinion of this House the Circular No. 22, dated November 8, 1910, issued to School Boards in the Transvaal by the Director of Education in that Province is contrary to the provisions of the Education Act, 1907, and should be withdrawn.

seconded.

dared to say that the case was that a good many members of the House had not had the opportunity of becoming acquainted with the terms of the notice mentioned in his motion. It might be thought that he drew attention to this matter to raise difficulties where no difficulties existed. A circular had been issued by the Transvaal Director of Education to the secretaries of School Boards stating that it had been decided that all communications dealing with the acquisition of sites, erection of schools, etc., must be addressed to the office to the secretary to the Administrator, and all other communications should be addressed to the secretary of the Education Branch of the Administrator’s office. Although no harm might be intended by this, it did render possible a change in the administrative system, because it appeared that the office of the Transvaal Administrator was taking to itself power to deal with matters which were more properly within the functions of the Education Department. This was an argument that Government should see that the Executive Committees should be appointed as soon as possible for the four Provinces. It appeared to him that the circular was an infringement of the Act, and they on that side of the House would like to have some information on the point. (Hear, hear.)

said it seemed to him that it would be advisable for the House to come to some understanding as to how far the functions of that House extended with regard to the Province administrations. The matter was a Provincial one purely and simply—it dealt with lower education, and had absolutely nothing to do with higher education. Clause 81 of the South Africa Act distinctly transferred the administration of lower education to the Provincial Councils. For the mere matter of convenience it seemed to him that it would be advisable if the House came to some clear understanding as to what should be dealt with by the Provincial Councils, and what should be dealt with by the Union Parliament. He said the circular referred to the Transvaal, and was a purely provincial matter, and it would not be convenient to the House and Parliament to be continually interfering in matters of detail in provincial administration. He read a telegram which he had received from the Administrator of the Transvaal. The latter stated that in his opinion there was nothing in the circular which was contrary to the provisions of the Education Act, 1907; furthermore, that the matter was purely a provincial one, and that the circular was issued for better and more economic working, and to prevent unnecessary duplication of work. Mr. Malan also read a report which he had received from the Transvaal Director of Education, stating that he did not see how the circular was contrary to any provision contained in the Act, and expressing himself as at a loss to understand why the question had been raised in Parliament. In view of the fact that both the Administrator of the Transvaal and the Transvaal Director of Education were of opinion, after careful consideration, that the circular was not contrary to law, but simply for the convenience of the Education Department, he (the speaker) hoped his hon. friend would withdraw his motion.

said he was opposed to the amendment being withdrawn, as he took a very serious view of the matter. He granted what the Minister of Education had said about the power of the Administrator. Of course, he had power to administer the law but he had no power to alter the law. According to a section of the South Africa Act, all laws existing at the establishment of Union must remain in force until altered by the proper authority. They on his side of the House maintained that this law had never been so altered. He wished to know why the Administrator had not called the Provincial Council together. It could have dealt with the matter. It was the proper authority, and not the Administrator himself. He (the speaker) had not the slightest doubt that the circular was contrary to the law.

Test it in the Court then.

said he would like to take this matter up very strongly. As far as he was concerned he did not consider the question as one of convenience, and he wished to know if the Government was going to tolerate a breach of the law, The circular took out of the hands of the Education Department matters relating to school sites, buildings, and furniture. The Director of Education would have nothing to say with regard to the erection of buildings, which would be taken out of his hands and put under the local Public Works Department. That was a breach of the law, under which everything, whether it pertained to curriculum of whether it had to do with buildings or furniture, must go through the Department of Education. He (Mr. Jagger) did not dispute that it might be a matter of convenience to do that, but he thought the Administrator should have waited till his Provincial Council had met, and passed an amendment to the law to that effect. The law had also been broken with regard to officials in the Transvaal. The Auditor-General of the Transvaal reported—

asked Mr. Speaker’s ruling on the point whether the motion was in order, seeing that primary and secondary education has been delegated to the Provincial Councils of the Provinces, under section 85 of the South Africa Act?

stated that in his opinion the raising of discussions in this House on matters specially delegated to the Provincial Councils of the Provinces is highly inconvenient, but he was not ore-paired at this juncture, and without further consideration, to rule that the motion proposed by the hon. member for Germiston was out of order.

asked if rulings of the Speaker, delivered in English, could also be given in Dutch, for the benefit of the Dutch-speaking members, who might not be able to accurately follow the ruling as given in the first language?

said that his ruling was that the motion was not out of order.

said he would merely add that in cases where the law was broken, he thought the House should point the matter out to the Administrator of the Province concerned.

said that if the hon. member who had introduced the motion would move that the education clause in the Act of Union should be taken out of the hands of the Provincial (Councils, then they would all know where they were, and those who had in the Convention voted against education being in the hands of the Union Parliament would have to fight the matter over again. The question was one which had been reserved for the Provinces, and it was a subject with which they alone dealt legislatively, and he thought it was exceedingly unfair that the House should be asked to sit in judgment upon the act of an executive officer in the execution of a law resting with the Provinces. The law With regard to primary education was left to the Provinces, and they could alter it to their hearts’ content at any moment. If today the House went and said that the Administartor acted in conflict with that law, then to-morrow they would have to say the Provincial Council has passed a law in conflict with the law. What right had they got to do that? They had as much right as if the House were to say that an officer of a Municipal Council had acted in contravention of the bye-law of a municipality, and of course they had no such right. If the House adopted a resolution of that kind, then he would ask hon. members opposite boldly to rise and say that education should be taken out of the hands of the Provinces, but knowing what took place in the Convention and knowing what was on still, he would be the last to support that.

said that the explanation that had been given seemed to him rather beside the mark. If there had been a breach of the law, who had they to go by except the Government of the country, of which the Administrator —if he had been guilty of a breach—was an officer? The Minister of Education, who was followed by the Minister of Justice, went back on that, and said that this House had nothing to do with it, because it was a matter within the province of the Provincial Council. The Provincial Council not having been assembled, and the Executive of the Provincial Council not having been elected, it did seem to him that the Administrator, who was provision ally administering the Province, should not alter anything until he had called together his Council—(cheers)—land the position being that there was no Executive and no Provincial Council, the right person to take up any breach of the law by one of the Administrators would, be the Hon. the Minister for Justice, and if he did not take it up, then it seemed to him that the only thing to be done was to come to that House and bring up the matter. (Hear, hear.)

said that surely his right hon. friend was wrong. If there was a breach of the law, should they not go to the Courts? (Laughter.) Why, a breach took place the other day, and in that instance an appeal was made to the Supreme Court. (Laughter.) But apart from that, he had risen to point out bow extremely inconvenient it was for hon. members who did not know what the circular was or what it contained to say that such a thing was illegal. How could they possibly decide such a question? So far as he was concerned, he had not seen, let alone heard, of such a circular as the one mentioned in the motion. Again, be thought it was about time that the minutes of the National Convention were published. Every day some hon. member got up and said that this or that happened in the Convention, or made a reference to the minutes of the Convention. There was no reason for keeping the minutes secret any longer and the sooner they were published the better.

said that if there had been a breach of the law—and this he denied—then it was only a breach of the tew in the technical sense of the term. And if there had been a breach of the law, then it had been for the purpose of avoiding circumlocution and facilitating business. (Laughter.) He contended that much time was saved; and as the Administrator had change of education in the Province, he thought that official wise in taking the step he did in the circular.

said that surely they required some explanation after what had been said by the Minister for Education, the Minister of Justice, and the hon. member for Potohefstroom. The last-named gentleman, had stated that this had been the practice of School Boards in that Province for a long time. If the hon. member for Potchefstroom (Mr. Neser) had listened to the Minister for Education, he would have learned that this departure from the law was due to the minute discussion between the Administrator and the Director of Education.

again read the telegram, and stated that there had been no breach of the law. In fact, this very practice had been carried on in the Cape Province for as long a time. (Opposition cries of “No, no.”)

said that if his hon. friend had been going in that direction for three years, all he could say was that the Government of the Transvaal was carried on in a most extraordinary manner to allow it to take place without calling the attention of the School Board to it. The Government had been most remiss in its duty in not calling together the Provincial Councils when the Union Parliament met, in order that they might elect, by the system of proportional representation, their Executive Councils, and in order that the administration of the Provinces might be carried on in accordance with the wishes of the National Convention and the provisions of the Act of Union. He hoped that his right hon. friend would give an assurance to the House that the Provincial Councils would be called together without delay. The right hon. the member for Victoria West (Mr. Merrimam) said that if this was a breach of the law, the proper thing to do was to go into a court of justice. He (Dr. Smartt) used to listen to his right hon. friend when he thundered in another House that it was the High Court of Parliament, and was the proper body to redress all grievances. Well, they had listened to the Minister for Education and the Minister for Justice, and the latter had referred to the fact as to whether this was a breach of the law or not, He should tell them whether it was or not a breach of the law. Even if it was only a technical breach of the law, the attention of the House should be called to it, for if attention was not drawn to technical breaches of the law, they would soon have serious breaches of the law before the Provincial Councils were called together. He did not wish to interfere with the province of the Provincial Councils, because when that question came up to be discussed, hon. members sitting on the Treasury benches would find that be held much stronger views than even they did on the rights and privileges of the Provincial Councils. Whatever it might be, it was the duty of the Government to bring to the notice of the House and breach of law affecting any Province before the Provincial Councils were called together. Has hon. friend bad forgotten that the Provincial Councils could make Ordinances, but they did not become law until approved of by the Governor-General. He did think that, as his hon. friend had brought this to the notice of the House, that at the eleventh hour it was the duty of the Government to see that all irregularities were rectified. Therefore, he appealed to the right hon. gentleman that the Provincial Councils should be called together at the earliest possible date, for the purpose of allowing them to elect their executives.

said he could not follow the hon. member for Fort Beaufort et all. Evidently the hon. member would like to see the Union Parliament usurping all the real powers and functions of the Provincial Councils. He wished it to be clearly understood that nothing now prevented Administrators from convening the Councils. It was superfluous for the Union Government to issue instructions on this point, as would appear from clause 74 of the South Africa-Act. He much regretted the motion, because it censured a Transvaal official. His action was called a contravention of the law, but that law, according to the South Africa Act, was to be administered by the Provincial Council. If the motion were adopted, the House would practically be altering the Constitution. He wished to warn them most emphatically that relations between the Union and Provincial authorities would become strained if every provincial matter were to be discussed in the House. Parliament should adopt a more sympathetic attitude towards the Provinces, so that there might be real co-operation. The motion was not nearly so simple as it looked. It was really ultra-constitutional, and he had to oppose it, because, if it passed, members of the Convention might be accused of having deliberately misled South Africa. He would never be a party to such a proceeding. He quite agreed with the right hon. member for Victoria West that there was no good reason now why the minutes of the Convention should not be published. He did not see why one or two members of the Convention should have a monopoly by having it left to them to state what was or was not the Convention’s intention on certain points. (Hear, hear.)

said that as to the object of the motion, it was not its intention to start a feeling of antagonism between the House and the Provincial Councils. The position was, that they Pound a condition of affairs in the Province of the Transvaal, where no Provincial Council had been summoned and when no executive had been elected, but where the functions of the executive were in accordance with the South Africa Act, temporarily entrusted to the Administrator. They agreed with the views put forward by the Minister for Justice. They did not want to interfere with the Administrator while he was carrying on those multifarious functions so long as he carried them on inside the law. (Hear, hear.) Their complaint was that, in issuing this circular, it war a breach of the law—(hear, hear)—and whether it was a technical breach or a serious breach did not affect the argument in the House. The opinion of the Administrator had been quoted; but he did not think that the House had anything to do with his opinion at all. They agreed with the Minister of Education when he said that they must not interfere with the Provincial Councils; but surely it was within the duty of that House to say to the Government: “Here is an officer under your control, acting contrary to the law, and it, is your duty to stop him.” (Opposition cheers.) The hon. member for Germiston could hardly be expected to take the matter to the Law Courts when he had that Parliament—the Supreme Court of Justice—at his hands. (Hear, (hear.)

said the hon. member for Fort Beaufort was enjoying himself very much; but he rushed in and discussed a legal question he did not understand. Anything more preposterous, he (Mr. Sauer) had never heard, and he hoped the House would not pass such a resolution. The House was asked to give a legal opinion on a certain circular they had not before them.

We have it—why have you not? (Opposition cheers.)

said they were asked to express a legal opinion on a question of which they had not the facts If the House were going to express legal opinions, it would very soon fall into disrepute. He would like to draw attention to this point —that, seemed to him to be the second attempt made to interfere, with the rights of Provincial Councils. Was the Administrator not mainly a Provincial Council officer?

He is your officer.

He is responsible mainly to the Provincial Council, and here you are going to interfere with the rights of the Provinces. Proceeding, the hon. member said that, as had been remarked that afternoon, there was a danger in this matter of education of setting a flame alight, the full extent of which they did not know. They should maintain intact the privileges and rights given to the Provincial Councils, but now they were attacking them.

No.

Well, you dissemble your attack very well. The spirit is one of finding fault with the Administrator. In conclusion, the hon. member expressed the hope that the House would refrain from expressing a legal opinion: The House was wasting time in discussing a legal point, and he hoped that it would hesitate before passing such a motion. (Hear, hear. )

moved the adjournment of the debate until the following day.

seconded.

The motion for the adjournment was agreed to.