presented a petition from W. L. White and 3,420 others, Civil Servants of the late Cape Government, praying that deductions made from their salaries under the Special Retrenchment Act during the year 1908-9, be refunded, or for other relief.

presented a petition from W. T. Newing, a lineman in the Postal Department, Kokstad, who entered the service on April 12, 1900, resigned in January, 1910, and re-entered the service on March 6, 1910, praying that the break of three weeks in his service may be regarded as leave without pay, or cither relief.

On the motion of Mr. KING, seconded by Mr. WHITAKER, the petition was referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants, and Gratuities.

presented a petition from W. H. S. Brummer, who served as a teacher in the Education Department from 1888 for 18 months and thereafter as a private farm teacher for four years, and subsequently from 1896 to 1909 in the Education Department, after which he was retired, praying for a gratuity, or other relief.

On the motion of Mr. VENTER, seconded by Mr. MENTZ, the petition was referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants, and Gratuities.

presented a petition from F. Wadman, who served for 28 years in the Table Bay Harbour Beard and was retired in December, 1909, without a pension, praying for a pension or other relief.

On the motion of Mr. JAGGER, seconded by Mr. WHITAKER, the petition was referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants, and Gratuities.

presented a petition from Mary Beck, widow, who was awarded a pension of £4 a month for two years, in 1909 in consideration of her late husband’s services as sergeant in the Gape Mounted Police, praying for further consideration and relief.

On the motion of Mr. OLIVER, seconded by Dr. WATKINS, the petition wars referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants, and Gratuities.

presented a petition from H. R. Sloan, of Pretoria, who served in the General Post Office, Cape Town, from August, 1898, to October, 1900 as a contributor to the Pension Fund, when he resigned, and subsequently on December 1, 1960, entered the Transvaal telegraph service, praying that the break of 30 days between the two services may be condoned and regarded as special leave without pay or ether relief.

On the motion of Mr. DUNGAN, seconded by Dr. MacNEILLE, the petition was referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Granite, and Gratuities.

presented a petition from Annie Heath, of Port Elizabeth, who was granted a pension of £29 18s. 9d. as a Pension Fund contributor in the Railway Department, praying for an increase of the and pension or other relief.

On the motion of Mr. WALTON, seconded by Sir BISSET BERRY, the petition was referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants, and Gratuities.

presented a petition from B. P. Wall, of Johannesburg, who served as chief engineer in the Central S. A. Railways from January, 1903, to September, 1910, when on the amalgamation of the railways of South Africa consequent upon Union be was retired on a pension of £253 1s., praying for reconsideration of his case and further relief.

On the motion of Mr. DUNCAN, seconded by Mr. OLIVER, the petition was referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants, and Gratuities.

presented a petition from H. E. R. Haggar, styling himself a civil engineer, who had been employed during 1862 to 1865 and 1873 to 1876 by the Cape Government Railways, and during 1893 to 1897 by the Natal Government Railways, praying the House to take into consideration his said services and his present circumstances, and grant him relief.

On the motion of Mr. WALTON, seconded by Mr. DUNCAN, the petition was referred to the Select Committee on Pensions. Grants, and Gratuities.

as chairman, brought up the first report of the Select Committee on Standing Rules and Orders as follows:

First report of the Select Committee appointed by orders of the House of Assembly, dated the 7th and 8th November, 1910, on Standing Rules and Orders, and to consist of Mr. Speaker, Mr. Merriman, Dr. Jameson, the Minister of Railways, the Minister of the Interior, Sir Bisset Berry, the Prime Minister, Sir Henry Juta, and Mr. Watt. Your Committee, having considered the matters referred to them, beg to recommend as follows:

1. 1. That the undermentioned officers be awarded the salaries set opposite to their respective names, viz.: Mr. Speaker, £1,750 p.a.; the Chairman of Committees, £500 p.a.: the Clerk of the House, £1,250 p.a.; the Sergeant-at-Arms, £400 p.a.
2. 2. That as regards the remainder of the permanent staff of the House, the following appointments be made and salaries awarded, viz: Clerk assistant, D. H. Visser, £600 p.a.; chief committee clerk, S. S. Rumble, £400 p.a.; assistant committee clerks: J. B. Rabie, £550 p. a.; W. A. Elias, £300 p.a.; chief translator, C. G. Murray, £450 p.a.; assistant translator. J. H. van Zuylen, £400 p.a. Clerk of the Papers, R. Kilpin, £200 p.a.; chief messenger, G. T. Pullen, £180 p.a.; assistant messenger, T. Oakes, £145 p.a.
3. 3. That Assistant Messenger Pietersen and Storeman Wild be placed on the fixed establishment each with a salary at the rate of £120 per annum.
4. 4. That your Committee be granted leave to confer with a Select Committee of the Senate.
5. 5. That a Select Committee be appointed especially to consider and report upon the question of arranging for the production of an official Hansard for the House.

Chairman.

Committee Rooms, House of Assembly, 15th November, 1910.

stated that unless notice of objection to the report was given at the next sitting of the House, the report would be considered as adopted.

Commissioner of Taxes, 1909-10.

Statements of the Exchequer receipts and issues of the four colonies, 1st July, 1909, to 30th May, 1910.

asked if Exchequer receipts meant revenue and expenditure.

said that it was a return for the four Provinces up to May 30, 1910. It was kept in accordance with the system of Exchequer receipts, and expenditure for that period, following the old lines.

We used the expression, revenue and expenditure, in our country, and the Transvaal used the system of Exchequer receipts which is the same as in England.

(Central) remarked that the income tax return, just laid on the table, had already been commented upon in the public press, He did not object, but he thought hon. members were entitled to see the report before it was handed over to the public.

said he did not know how the report got to the press, but perhaps his hon. friend knew more about it than he did. (Laughter.)

That’s all right.

said that due inquiry would be made into the matter.

asked whether it would be possible to have the return of Exchequer receipts printed and circulated. (Hear, hear.) Hon. members would like to look over the return.

said that this could be done.

said he had already ruled that no paper or return could be laid on the table, except by order of the House, or in accordance with an Act of Parliament, or by command of His Excellency the Governor. He thought that the Treasurer ought to have stated, when he laid the papers on the table, that he did so by command of His Excellency the Governor.

I understock that when I laid the papers on the table I stated that. I may state that there is no objection to having the returns printed and circulated. I might add that the returns have appeared from time to time in the various “Gazettes,” and if hon. members had studied the “Gazettes” they would have got the information. (Ministerial cheers.)

stated that he had hunted for the Orange Free State accounts, but could not get them. Furthermore, the Transvaal accounts had just appeared. (Opposition cheers.)

asked whether the Government intends during the present session to introduce legislation amending the Transvaal Workmen’s Compensation Act in the following respects:(1) In view of the high mortality rate from miners’ phthisis of men working on the Witwatersrand mines, to secure to those who contract the disease or to their families, compensation, the liability for such compensation, to extend to previous employers; and (2) to secure to native employees in case of accident compensation in the same proportion to their normal earnings as is secured to white employees.

I regret that I am unable to-day to give the hon. member the information asked for. I am still making certain preliminary inquiries, and hope to be in a position at an early date to reply to the question.

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government will take into favourable consideration the question of establishing a Land Bank in the Province of the Cape of Good Hope.

For a reply to this question I would invite attention to the answer returned by me on the 10th inst. to a similar inquiry made by the hon. member for Jansenville.

asked whether the Government is aware that the late Government of the Orange River Colony had decided to build, a post and telegraph office at Koffyfontein, and also a bridge across the Riet River at Koffyfontein, and, if so, when a commencement with these works will be made.

I am aware that the late Government of the Orange River Colony had under consideration certain alterations to the existing post office at Koffyfontein. A report and plans showing the proposed alterations have been called for by the Postal Department, and the matter will receive early—and, I hope, favourable—consideration. With regard to the bridge over the Riet River at Koffyfontein, the Administrator of the Free State has a list of bridges to be gradually taken in hand as time and money will permit. The bridge mentioned by the hon. member is included in this list, but I am unable to say when it will be commenced, as this will depend on the Administrator’s opinion as to the comparative urgency of the various bridges.

asked whether it is the intention of the Government to proceed with the construction of the authorised branch line connecting Howick village with the main line in Natal.

said it was the intention of the Government to proceed with the line. As a matter of fact, a tender had been placed for the masonry and other work connected with the construction of the line.

asked the Minister of the Interior what safeguards are being enforced to prevent the importation of Mozambique sugar free of duty into the several Provinces of the Union.

In accordance with the provision of the Convention entered into between the Government of the-Transvaal and the Portuguese Government on April 1, 1909, Mozambique sugar is only admitted into the Transvaal Province free of duty on satisfactory evidence as to its origin, and on a declaration that it is intended for consumption in that portion of the Union, and on an understanding that it will not be removed from the Transvaal before due notice has been given to the Customs authorities, and payment of the proper duties has been made. Any sugar removed contrary to the regulations is liable to forfeiture, and the contravenes to heavy penalities. A careful account is kept of all importations, and the books of consignees inspected as to disposal thereof. The Railway Department have been requested to co-operate with the Customs authorities in detecting reconsignments to beyond the Transvaal. Such reconsignments are, however, unlikely, owing to the additional railway and other charges which would be incurred, and which would practically make reconsignment prohibitive.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is prepared (a) to lower the price of guano in response to the various representations which have from time to time been made by the representatives of agriculturists and public bodies, and (b) whether he will cause guano to be stocked at the railway stations in districts where there is a demand for the same?

As regards (a), the Government does not see its way to reduce the price of guano. The policy of the Government is to extend co-operative experiments on private forms with fodder, plants, cereals, etc., as much as possible. A profit of about £20,000 per annum is made on the sale of guano. If the price of guano be reduced, this revenue would have to be made up in some other way, and it seems fair that, as these experiments are in the direct interests of farmers, for whom guano is available, the revenue in question should continue to be made out of the sale of guano, which is, moreover, disposed of at little more than half its market value. With regard to (b), the system of stocking guano at railway stations was tried at one time, and abolished owing to the expense involved. An arrangement is in force whereby farmers may order guano through stationmasters. This has been found to meet the case quite well, and seems preferable to the depot system.

asked when the construction of the Greytown-Krantzkop railway, provision for which was made by the late Natal Parliament at its last sitting, would be put in hand?

said that with regard to this matter, he might state that it was under consideration—(laughter)—and very careful consideration. (Hear, hear.) He was not in a position to say when the line would be constructed. The question of the construction of railways was a very large one, and it was the intention of the Government— and he hoped they would be able to carry out their intention—to consider the question of further railway construction during the present session. Of course it did not follow that where there was authority for constructing a railway, there were funds available.

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that District Surgeons in the Transvaal took a prominent part in the recent elections, and whether the Government at any time issued instructions forbidding them to take an active part in politics?

I am aware that District Surgeons have taken part in the recent elections, but, in my opinion, they are not debarred from doing so, as they are not Civil Servants, and are only remunerated by the Government for part of their time and for special services. No instructions have therefore been issued to them forbidding them to take any part in politics.

asked (1) Which of the recommendations contained in the Truter report have been carried into effect by the Government; (2) what further recommendations by Mr. Truter does the Government intend to give effect to, and when; (3) what are the recommendations made by Mr. Truter the Government does not intend to bring into effect; and (4) is it a fact that the case of a Mr. Nettleton, who was discharged from the railway service, was investigated by Mr. Truter, and, if so, did Mr. Truter (a) report thereon; (b) recommend any course of action to be taken by the Government; (c) has the Government acted upon the recommendations, if any; and, if not, (d) does the Government intend to give effect to it, and when?

said that apparently this was another attempt to get at the report. Well, he should like to say that, so far as he was concerned, he had not the slightest objection to laying the report on the table. He saw his hon. friend (Dr. Smartt) smile, but he could assure him that he had nothing to conceal any more than the hon. member opposite. He would like to say again that the Government bad no objection to laying the report on the table, but they promised those people who gave evidence that they would treat the report as confidential.

The evidence.

continuing, said that any person who read the report would know who gave the evidence; it would identify the witness at once. So far as identification was concerned, it would be just the same whether they published the report with or without the evidence. He thought that when certain events lapsed interest in the report would lapse too. (Laughter.) Some people had an idea that the contents of the report would disclose something worse than the “Black Hole of Calcutta.” He could assure the hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Dr. Smartt) that it was not quite as dreadful as he thought. Hon. members opposite were quite indifferent to the large class of men whom the report said were badly treated.

How could we know that they were badly treated without the report? (Laughter.)

said Government had carried into effect Mr. Truter’s recommendations with regard to overtime by drivers and firemen, rest houses for men off duty, and the reorganisation at Braamfontein. With regard to the third question, he might be able to give the hon. member a little more definite reply later on. Government did not intend to give effect to Mr. Truter’s recommendations with regard to the supply of mackintoshes to a section of the daily paid staff, payment of bonus to checkers, increase of wages to shunters, or an increased number of shunters. As to Mr. Nettleton, his case was investigated. Mr. Truter reported thereon, but he (Mr. Sauer) did not think he recommended any particular course of action. Mr. Nettleton was discharged; he appealed, and the late Railway Board upheld the decision of the late General Manager. Mr. Nettleton subsequently appealed to His Majesty-in-Council and that was also dismissed. He (Mr. Sauer) did not think that his case would be reopened. Having read the report very carefully, he would say that there was nothing against Mr. Nettleton’s character, but the Government had the right to dismiss Mr. Nettleton or any other public servant who was not on the fixed establishment.

asked the Minister of Lands whether it is the intention of the Government to provide for the inspection and survey of suitable sites for irrigation works in the district of Ladismith, the sub-district of Calitzdorp, and the Field-cornetcy of Tradouw, in the district of Swellendam, on lines similar to those carried out in the district of Oudtshoorn?

The scope of the Oudtshoorn reconnaissance survey, so far as at present contemplated, is outlined in paras. 32 and 33 of the annual report of the Director of Irrigation for the Cape Province, for the year 1909 (G.32-1910), which was laid on the table of the House on November 8, 1910. This embraces the Calitzdorp area. If funds are available, the survey operations will, if possible, be extended to portion of the division of Ladismith, and to the Field-cornetcy of Tradouw, in the Division of Swellendam.

asked the Minister of Agriculture:(1) Whether it is the intention of the Government to proceed with the establishment of the Agricultural College at Pretoria, for which the sum of £100,000 was voted by the late Transvaal Parliament, and a large area of land granted by the Pretoria Town Council; (2) whether any plans have yet been prepared; and, if so (6) whether provision has been made in these plans for the extension and development of this institution into a first-class modern Agricultural College equal to the requirements of the whole of South Africa; and if not; (4) whether it is the intention of the Government to make such provision; and (5) when work will be commenced?

replied to the first question in the affirmative Plans had not yet been prepared, but the matter would be taken in hand. It was impossible to say at present when the building would be commenced.

asked whether the resolution of the late Parliament of the Orange River Colony of November 24, 1909, as also the resolution of March, 22, 1910, with regard to railway connection for the western and northwestern parts of the Orange Free State (Boshof, Hoopstad, and Kroonstad West), along with the necessary surveys which are contained in those resolutions, have been brought to the notice of the Union Government; and, if so, what steps the Government intends to take to give effect to those resolutions?

replied that the survey had been made, but what would be done he could not say. If the matter came before the notice of the Government, he could assure the hon. member that Government would give it its most serious attention. (Laughter.)

asked:(a) Whether the Government is aware that applications from farmers for loans, under the Cape Colony Fencing Act, No. 37, of 1909, have been met with the reply that the funds available for such loans are exhausted, and that in consequence very important contemplated works arc being hung up; (b) whether it is the intention of Government at an early date to apply to Parliament for authority to devote a further sum of money to the purposes of the above Act, and whether in the meantime some arrangement could not become to so as to avoid interruption in the continuity of the development contemplated by the Act?

(a) The Calpe Fencing Loans Act, No. 37, of 1909, contemplated that the loans sanctioned thereunder should be met from the proceeds of a public loan sanctioned by the Cape Act, No. 27, of 1908. But no portion of the public loan authorised by the Act of 1908 was ever raised by the Government of the Cape Colony, and therefore it is not quite correct to say that “the funds available for such loans are exhausted.” (b) The Government arc alive to the importance of providing facilities for the erection of fencing in country districts, and it is their intention to ask Parliament at an early date to authorise the provision of funds for this purpose. As a matter of fact, since May 31, the Government have anticipated the approval of Parliament in this respect by authorising the issue of loans, aggregating some £2,300, for these services in the Cape Province.

asked the Minister of Lands:(1) Whether he is aware that there are numerous applicants for the vacant land comprised in the first railway grant in Bechuanaland, known as the Korannaberg; (2) whether he is still negotiating with the Bechuanaland Railway Company with a view to a subdivision of the said land; and (3) whether, in the event of such negotiations having fallen through, he intends to deal with that land forthwith in terms of Act No. 23 of 1893 (Cape)?

(1) The Minister is aware of the fact that there are a number of persons desirous of securing farms in the Korannaberg. (2) Negotiations with a view to arriving at a dissolution of the partnership existing between the Government and the Rhodesia. Railways, Ltd., in regard to the land in the first railway land grant, are at present under consideration. (3) Whether the negotiations lead to an agreement or fall through, in view of the fact that past experience has shown that the allotment of farms without a water supply is unsatisfactory, and has rendered it difficult to enforce the conditions requiring personal occupation by the licencees, the Government does not at present propose to throw open any farms in that locality until it has been decided what steps, if any, can be taken to secure a water supply. Proposals to bore for water are at the present time under consideration.

asked:(1) Whether the Government will, when considering the subject of railway extension, give attention to the needs of Zululand, in this respect, as recognised by the Natal Parliament, by legislation passed during the session of 1909; and (2) whether, with reference to the survey from Empangeni to Vryheid, now being undertaken, it is the intention to open up lands occupied by farmers, or to pass through native reserves; or will alternative surveys be presented?

replied that when the railway programme came to be dealt with, Zululand’s claims would be considered with others.

asked the Prime Minister: (a) Whether he will take into his favourable consideration the question of appointing a Minister for Labour on the lines adopted in New Zealand, or similar lines; and (b) whether he will at the earliest opportunity, in view of the importance of protecting local industries against unfair competition, take into consideration the introduction of a Bill on the lines of the Australian Industries Preservation Act?

replied that he did not consider that the time had come in South Africa for the appointment of such a Minister. A Commission would be appointed to go into certain questions, and the Government would not take any action in that matter before it had the recommendations of that Commission before it.

asked the Minister of Justice:(1) Whether his attention had been directed to a certain report appearing in the “Cape Times” of November 11, 1910, with regard to the Transvaal police in Ermelo; (2) whether any members of the police force in the Ermelo district had been retired since May 31, and, if so, for what reasons; (3) whether any members of the police force in the Ermelo district have been transferred to any other districts since May 31, and, if so, for what reasons; (4) how many English-speaking members of the police force were in the Ermelo district on May 31, and how many are there now; (5) whether he has received any complaints with regard to the retirement or transfer of members in the police force of the Ermelo district; and (6) whether he is prepared to re-establish the police station at Mayflower?

(1) The report in question was so exaggerated that it might be called false in many respects, as would appear from his subsequent answers. (2) No member of the police force in the Ermelo district had been retired since May 31. (3) Certain members had been transferred who were not sufficiently well acquainted with the Dutch language or the local conditions. (4) On May 31 there were 26 members of the force there who were English-speaking, and 19 who also spoke Dutch; now there were 22 English speaking and 21 who were also Dutch speaking, so that in a Dutch place like Ermelo he did not think that gave any cause for complaint. (5) No such complaints had been received by the Acting Commissioner of Police or any responsible officer. (6) No; owing to the comparative absence of crime there. The Commissioner of Police was considering the advisability of establishing another station with regard to the removal of cattle to Swaziland.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether he is correctly reported as having stated in reply to a question asked in this House that the Government intend to follow the system upon the railways of paying for overtime worked at the same rates as those paid for ordinary time, and, if so, whether the Government will afford this House an opportunity to discuss the question prior to promulgating any rules or regulations throughout the railway service bearing on the question of payment for overtime?

was understood to reply that the question was for the Railway Board to consider as well as other cognate questions. He was not prepared at the present stage to indicate in any way whether there would be a change in the position, but the question of uniformity over the whole of the Union would have to be considered.

asked:(a) Whether a request was recently made to the Government by the Cape of Good Hope Provincial Division of the Supreme Court of South Africa for the appointment of a third permanent shorthand writer; (b) whether such request was refused; and (c) whether the Government is prepared to reconsider the matter and make the necessary provision on the Estimates, in view of the serious inconvenience caused to the judges, practitioners, and suitors in the Third Division of the Court by reason of the absence of such permanent officer?

(a) Yes. (b) The request was not entertained, in view of the fact that the Provincial Division of the Supreme Court at the Cape did not habitually sit in three divisions, and authority had been given to engage, when necessary, an additional shorthand writer and typist, (c) The question of providing a sufficient staff of shorthand writers for the Supreme Court was at present being considered, and the question had already for some time engaged the attention of his department. In Natal there were two shorthand writers, in the Transvaal two, one at Pretoria, and one at Johannesburg, and a third was lent from time to time from the Department of Justice. In the Cape there were three, while in the Free State there were none. There could be no doubt that everyone who knew the conditions and the desire for exact copies of the evidence must feel the necessity for sufficient shorthand writers. In as short a time as possible the different Provincial Courts would be supplied. (Hear, hear.)

asked:(1) Whether it is the intention of the Government to appoint at an early date an additional engineer in the South-western Circle, as urgently recommended by the Director of Irrigation in his report for the year 1909; and (2) whether it is the intention of the Government to provide for the inspection and survey of suitable sites for irrigation works in the districts of Riversdale and Mossel Bay?

(1) The additional assistance asked for by the Director of Irrigation in the South-western Circle, in his annual report for 1909, has since been granted by the Government, and under the reorganisation scheme of the Irrigation Department, the Circle Engineer in charge of this portion of the country has two assistant engineers with him. (2) It is not the intention of the Government to carry out, in the immediate future, any systematic survey operations in the divisions of Riversdale and Mossel Bay, with the possible exception of a survey along the lesser Gouritz River.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours:(1) Whether his attention had been drawn to the comments made by the Magistrate of the Second Criminal Court, Cape Town, on Thursday, November 10, upon the danger and inconvenience to the public arising out of the insufficiency of staff upon the Sea Point line, in consequence of which one man is required to look after each station, and act in the capacities of station-master, booking clerk, ticket collector, signalman, gateman, and porter; and, if so, (2) whether he intends to take steps to remedy this grievance?

replied that his attention had been drawn to the matter, which had first of all been referred to the Department of the Minister of Justice. At Monument Station, on the Sea Point line, there were two foremen, two shunters, and two ticket collectors. Well, that seemed ample for a minor station like that. And so it was with the other places. He must say that there were a number where one man only was in charge, but the railway people said that there was not enough work even for him. (Laughter.) There was no danger of overwork, and he could assure his hon. friend that he was on the wrong scent that time. (Laughter.)

asked whether the functions of the Council of Education, constituted under section 7 of the Transvaal Education Act, 1907, are confined to matters coming under the jurisdiction of the Provincial Council of that Province, or whether they also advise the Minister on matters coming within his jurisdiction?

replied in the affirmative to the first part of the question, and in the negative to the second part. He added that provision for the Normal Schools was made on the Provincial Estimates, and the directors of education had been considering the adoption of a uniform scheme for the issue of certificates to teachers throughout the Union. The question of the transfer of the Normal Schools was being held in abeyance.

asked whether the Government intend to place cool chambers and elevators for wheat on suitable spots along the railway, and also in other localities where it may be necessary?

said that the Government had this question under consideration, and had one or two competent men inquiring into the matter. Something would be done shortly.

asked whether the Government is prepare during the present session to consider the desirability of providing a sufficient sum of money for, and to introduce the necessary legislation authorising, the extension of railway communication in the district of Marico, namely, the extension of the Krugersdorp-Zeerust line from Zeerust, via Ottoshoop, to Buhnmansdrift?

said that the question would be considered when the whole matter of railways came before the House for consideration. He might say that he did not think there was a single member in the House who did not want a railway. (Laughter.)

asked whether the Government intend to introduce a general Scab Bill for the whose Union during the present session?

said that a Bill dealing with animal diseases was being introduced, and that it would provide for scab. (Hear, hoar.)

asked whether the practice of contrecting out of liability is insisted upon by the Government in the case of workmen engaged in dangerous employments on the South African Railways in Natal, and if so, whether he will take steps to have this practice abolished?

was understood to reply that this practice was not in operation on the South African Railways in Natal. The Government was not excluded, so he was understood to add, under the Workmans Compensation Act.

asked the Prime Minister whether he is in a position to inform the House when the various Provincial Councils will be called together for the purpose of electing their executive committees in order to comply with section 118 of the South Africa Act 1909, the latter part of which reads: “The Executive Committee of the several Provincial Councils shall annually submit estimates of their expenditure for the approval of the Governor-General-in-Council, and no expenditure shall be incurred by any Executive Committee which is not provided f.ir in such approved estimates”?

I am not at present in a position to inform the House when the various Provincial Administrations will be called together I may state that there is nothing to Dre vent the Administrators from calling their respective Provincial Councils together at once, but such a course would not serve any useful purpose, as there would be little or no work for the Provincial Councils to perform until such time as the Union Parliament has decided what funds are to be voted to the various Provincial Councils out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund. In accordance with the undertaking given by the Minister of Finance a few days ago, the Union Estimates of Expenditure, showing the proposed grants to the Provincial Councils out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund will be laid on the table on the 17th inst.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether he is in a position to state when the railway rates will be altered so as to bring the rates to Kimberley into line with other places of the same distance from the coast, and to do away with the anomaly of carrying goods to stations beyond Kimberley at a lower rate of carriage than to Kimberley?

replied that there were places in a similar position to Kimberley so far, as railway rates were concerned. It was intended to reorganise the rating system, and he hoped and expected that this would take place in a very short while. The matter had been engaging the attention of the Railway Administration, and be hoped that notice of the change would be given before the end of the present year. If the full extent was not done away with, at least a substantial grievance would be removed, il was quite true that certain parts of the Cape Province seemed to have been bled for the purpose of revenue.

asked the Prime Minister whether the principle of only engaging officials conversant with both English and Dutch languages, which the Minister of Public Works stated on the 10th inst., is being applied to the postal and telegraphic services, is also applied in the selection of Field-cornets?

said it was possible that the question bad been placed on the paper under a misunderstanding, as he answered a question of a similar nature placed on the paper the other day by the hon. member for Ermelo. He, therefore, proposed to reiterate what be then said. Every endeavour was being made to meet the dual language requirements in the Post Office of the Cape Province. No learner was being appointed in the Cape Province until he was reasonably proficient in the Dutch language, and it was intended that this system should be carried into effect in the other Provinces. Notices of different kinds and farms were also being printed in bath languages. He added that the system of dealing with learners in the Cape Province was giving satisfaction. Boys were taken on between the ages of 14 and 17, and paid, when they became proficient in the Dutch language their pay was increased. He hoped that this system would soon be extended to the other Provinces.

said that as far as possible Field-comets would be appointed from among such as were proficient in both languages. (Hear, bear.)

moved that Mr. Madeley be a member of the Select Committee on Native Affairs.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved that “this House is of opinion that in the equalisation of taxation throughout /the Union it is imperative that the poll tax of one pound per bead, now in force in the Province of Natal, should be abolished.” He said that the people of Natal were labouring under certain grievances as far as taxation was concerned, and it was essential that these grievances should be brought before the House at the earliest, possible opportunity. The history of what led up to these grievances and the passing of the poll tax was as follows: In 1904 the Government of Natal found that it had a serious deficit to meet, and they proposed certain forms of taxation. They had four Bills which they brought before the House—a personal tax to impose a poll tax and do away with the hut tax which the natives paid and still paid, a graduated house tax, a tax on private flotations, and an unoccupied land tax. These taxation Bills were all duly passed by the House of Assembly, but they were all thrown out by the Legislative House. The Government were in a very serious difficulty, because it was late in the year, and they had to meet not only the deficit of the past year, but they had also to face a further deficit on the current year, and as a temporary measure the poll tax was passed by the Assembly, accepted by the Upper House, and became law. It was pointed out that this was to be a temporary measure. It was to meet the stress of times, and it was to be removed at the first opportunity. Since then, however, it had not only been found necessary to keep the poll tax, but new taxation measures had been introduced. The speaker went on to deal with the main clauses of the poll tax. He stated that every male over 18 years of age had to pay a tax of £1, with certain exemptions, including the following persons: the Governor and his staff the naval and military authorities, including the European members of the Natal Police, and Consuls. There were special exemptions, as for instance, in the ease of natives who paid the but tax, which amounted to 14s. per annum, natives working in the colony but domiciled outside the colony, and indentured Indians. Persons were excused on account of poverty, and persons passing through the colony were also exempted. He pointed out that the burden of proof of age was on the person who was called upon to pay the tax. The tax was due on January 1 in each year, and that was why he had deemed it necessary to bring up the matter at the earliest possible opportunity. The tax would become payable on January 1 next, and unless something was done during the present sitting of Parliament the whole of the people of Natal would be called upon to pay the tax during next year. Now, the natives did not pay until May next, and if it was thought necessary during this session, either before the recess or after Christmas, to impose a certain tax on the natives of Natal, then there would still be ample time for the Treasurer to proceed in the matter. (The speaker went on to say that in the past there had been a tendency to hesitate in Natal in interfering with any Acts in the Statute-books, especially when class legislation might be introduced, for fear that the Home Government might exercise its prerogative. He hoped that this state of things would not exist any longer, and that the Imperial Government, having given to them in South Africa the full right to rule themselves, would hesitate to interfere if this House saw fit to introduce taxation that was in the nature of class legislation. It was not right or fair that this Government should hesitate to withdraw taxation or Acts that were objectionable to the people, just because they were afraid that if they introduced new measures, the veto would be exercised. He thought that this danger which bad been held over them in Natal did not now exist, and they should not hesitate to remove from their Statute-books laws which were objectionable. There were various objectionable clauses in the Natal Poll Tax Act. For instance, a policeman might call upon a professional man in his office at any time, and ask him to produce his poll tax receipt. Another objectionable clause was with reference to those who were exempted on the ground of poverty. A man had the right to go to a Magistrate and make a declaration that he was not in a financial position to pay the tax. There was a number of persons who found it necessary to do that, but there was also a large number who hesitated to go to a Magistrate and pauperise themselves in that way. Poverty was no crime, and he considered that that clause in the Act was very objectionable. In 1908 the Government brought in an Income and Land Assessment Act, under which incomes not exceeding £240 a year could not be taxed at all, except those earned by bachelors and widowers without children. The income and land tax met with general approval, but it was not continued. Almost the last thing the Natal Parliament did was to repeal the Income and Land Tax Laws; but the Union Treasurer could bring in a Bill to collect these taxes up to June 30 last. So far as the poll tax was concerned, it was estimated to produce £120,000 a year, only a quarter of which was paid by the Europeans. This tax weighed most heavily on the poor people, and had no right to be found on the Statute-book of the Union. It was a tax that should be imposed only under especial circumstances that did not exist at the present time. The people would not object to an income tax, but the poll tax they regarded as infamous. The many were being taxed so that the few could escape. The Parliaments of South Africa in the past bad not represented the entire people, but now we were on a different footing, and there was a democratic body in that House. The poor man had now as much to say in the ruling of the country as the rich man had. It was to the poorer classes that Parliament would have to account in dealing with taxation measures. The tax was an unpopular one, owing to the way in which it was imposed. If it had not been because of the eve of Union, the then Government of Natal would have been put out of office. It was felt at the time that a change was not desirable, but he would like to point out that not a single member of that Government had been returned at the recent elections. Proceeding, the hon. member quoted Nathaniel Nathan on “Economic Heresies,” a writer who, he said, was the brother of the former Governor of Natal, and in that book the author condemned the poll tax. It was a blot that they still found that tax on their Statute-book in its native crudity, and he hoped that the Government would see that it was removed as soon as possible. It was a matter which could not be left alone, and he hoped that it would be dealt with before the end of the current year.

said that the poll tax was one of the Middle Ages, and one which should not be inflicted at the present time. It was not imposed in any of the other Provinces of the Union. If the Treasurer found that he must have other taxation, let him bring in a Bill which provided for taxation which fell fairly on all but let them not have such an unfair tax as the poll tax. A man who had an income of £2,000 a year or a labourer who only received 6s. a day had to pay the same. Natal was quite willing to y its fair share of taxation, but it must on a fair basis. An income tax was one which was fair.

said that because the poll tax was so unfair it had become extremely unpopular in Natal, and there were few Acts which the Union Government could do which would be more popular than wiping off the Statute-book that most objectionable tax. He did not ask that it should be removed from the white men only and not the black men; he thought they ought to be fair to their black fellow-men, and he sincerely hoped that the people of Natal who objected to the tax would receive the support of hon. members.

said that it seemed to him that the hon. member who had introduced that motion and had got his friends from Natal to support him, had rather anticipated events. The speeches which had been placed before the House were speeches which he thought could have waited until there was some definite scheme before the House for equalising taxation. (Hear, hear.) For the present, he might say that he entirely agreed with a number of the arguments of hon. members from Natal that the poll tax was not a popular tax; and he hoped never to bring forward any scheme which would involve taxing the heads of the people. (Cheers.) The House, however, was not responsible for that poll tax—the people of Natal were. (Laughter.) He was sorry that the Government was not in a position that day to accept the resolution moved by his hon. friend opposite (Mr. Meyler), who wanted the House to give an undertaking in advance that it would on some future occasion, when a scheme for equalising taxation was brought forward, treat Natal preferentially, for that was what it came to. (Some Natal HON. MEMBERS: “No, no.”) He did not see how the House could pledge itself in advance, because if they examined the terms of the resolution, hon. members must agree with him that it was merely art abstract proposition, and they were asked to vote on a matter which was purely an academic one. Until hon. members had had an opportunity of considering the whole financial position of the Union, it was impossible to pledge themselves in advance as to what taxation should, or should not, be imposed. There was a further objection, which applied not only to Natal, but right throughout the Union. It was obvious that if they wished to bring about the uniformity of taxation which had been referred to in the Governor-General’s Speech, it could not be brought about at once. Continuing, he said that-be knew of all these inequalities, but it was Obviously impossible to bring about a complete change at once. He sympathised with the hon. member, and what he had had to say about the poll tax. The hon. member had talked about democratic legislation, hut he did not see where that came in when the mover wanted the tax removed from European shoulders and left on the shoulders of the coloured population. That was a new system of democratic taxation that he had never heard of. He thought the hon. member should have waited until some scheme for the equalisation of taxation was placed before the House. But he would remind the hon. member that those inequalities were evident in all parts of the Union. He pointed out that in the Transvaal there was a very heavy tax on ‘ the natives—a population of about a million souls. In the Cape Province they had a very different system of taxation, so far as the natives were concerned. While he was not prepared to say that the Cape tax should not be levelled up to that of the Transvaal, he was not prepared to say that the House should lower the tax in the Transvaal to the standard that obtained in the Cape Province. The Treasury would be, in a nice position if this sort of thing was carried into effect. They would not have enough money in the Treasury to meet the ordinary expenditure of the country. Then he alluded in detail to the difference in the transfer duty which obtained in the different Provinces. If the inequalities of taxation in Natal were urgent, then the same must be said of the inequalities which existed in the other Provinces of the Union. He could go on reciting a number of inequalities that existed in the country, but he did not wish to weary the House. He could deal with the inequalities of the Stamp Act, and those connected with the mining industry, hut he would ask hon. members on the other side to wait until they saw the financial position of the country, and then make suggestions to the Government for the equalisation of taxation. With all respect, he might say that an attorney would call the motion self; destructive, because, if they were to have equalisation there must be no poll tax in Natal, or a poll tax throughout the Union.

said that one of the principal things the House had to do was to see that there was equality of treatment meted out to all parts of the Union in regard to taxation. And in this regard some system of equal treatment should be carried into effect with as little delay as possible. He thought that the question was a very practical one, so far as Natal was Concerned, because if something; was not done during the course of this year the tax would be re-imposed, and they, in Natal, most strongly objected to paying a direct tax which did not fall upon the shoulders of all the people within the Union. They did not object to paying a tax that would fall equally upon the rest of the people of the Union; but they did object to this direct tax, which only affected the Province of Natal. He pointed out that the majority of the members of the late Government of Natal were re-elected, and the reason was that the tax was only imposed because the Province had been in dire financial straits. The tax was imposed for the purpose of paying their debts, and the people of Natal had recognised that. If the Province of Natal were separated at the present time, it would be in a position to repeal this tax, because it was imposed at a time when their Treasurer found it hard to make ends meet. This poll fax was merely imposed, because the Government could not find a more equitable form of taxation. There was no attempt on the part of the members of the Government to justify the tax as a just tax. It was a tax necessary at the time. The Treasurer said that they should wait until some scheme of equalisation was brought before the House; but how long would they have to wait? It seemed to him that it would be a long time before all these inequalities which existed in the different parts of the Union were removed So far as the transfer duty was concerned, he pointed out that this tax only fell on a portion of the people, and a portion well able to bear such a burden. This poll tax fell upon all the people in Natal. So far as the natives were concerned, the poll tax could be removed, and a hut tax, as suggested in the report of the South African Native Affairs Commission be imposed. The Commission, by the way, had suggested that the natives were not paying their fair share of the cost of administering the country. At the same time, he hoped that the Minister would see his way clear to remove the tax, so far as the whole of the population of Natal was concerned.

said he did not think that the motion should be pressed to a vote. He did not think there was a member on his side of the House that was in favour of a poll tax, but hon. members of the Cape Province could not vote in favour of the motion, because there were pressing inequalities in the Cape Province that needed a remedy. He moved as an amendment “the previous question.”

said he was surprised at the suggestions made by the Minister of Finance, as the reason for the introduction of the motion. He (the speaker) might have been assisted by his Prime Minister, but he certainly had to go to his constituency to fight his election. He had not been in the happy position of the Minister of Finance, who sat in his office while the Prime Minister fought his election. If he had done nothing more, he had drawn from the Minister and another occupant of the Treasury benches that they were not in favour or the poll tax, and that they did not think that anybody in the House was in favour of such a system of taxation. They had at least scored on that point. He would like to say that the Minister of Finance minister preted him when he said he (Mr. Meyler) only favoured the tax being taken off European shoulders. What he did say was that the point as to whether it should be left on the natives should rest with the Minister. In the circumstances, he begged leave to withdraw the motion.

Both amendment and motion were withdrawn.

moved for a return showing:(a) The strength of the police force in Johannesburg on the 1st March, 1907, and setting forth the names, ages, rank, length of service and pay of each of the men; (b) the number of men enlisted in the police force of the Transvaal since the 1st March, 1907, to the 31st October, 1910, with the names, rank, ages and pay of each of the men; (c) the number of men discharged or who have left the police force in the Transvaal since the 1st March, 1907, to the 31st October, 1910; and M) the names and rank of those men in the police force in the Transvaal who have since the 1st June last applied for their discharge by purchase or otherwise, such return further to set forth the reasons given for the making of the applications and to furnish a list of those applications granted.

seconded.

said he would be only too pleased to afford all the information desired by the hon. member.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the petition from Helen Crewe and 7,211 others, praying that, the laws of the Province of the Cape of Good Hope regarding the age of consent may be brought into conformity with the laws of the other Provinces of the Union by raising such age to 16 years, presented to the House on the 8th inst., be referred to the Government for inquiry and report.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

moved for a return showing:(a) The number of cattle imported into the Western Transvaal from the Cape Province during the period January 1, 1910, to date, and (b) the number of cattle imported from the Orange Free State into the Western Transvaal during the same period.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

moved:“ That in the opinion of this House it is highly desirable that the Commission to be appointed under section 118 of the South Africa Act 1909, for the purpose of inquiring into the financial relations which should exist between the Union and the Provinces, should be so appointed without further delay.” He said that when the Prime Minister announced, in answer to a question by the hon. member for Durban, Berea (Mr. Henderson), that it was the inteition of the Government to put off or delay the appointment of the Commission as laid down in the Act of Union to adjust the financial relations between the Central Government and the Provincial Councils, he thought that many members in the House heard that announcement with very great surprise. He was perfectly certain that members in this House and a good many people in the country heard it with very great disappointment, because lie took it that most people in this country certainly in this Province and in Natal, would like to see the Provincial Councils established as early as possible on sound and proper lines. He might state for the information of the Government that its policy of centralisation did not meet with be approval of the people. He knew one case where the Government had actually ordered an institution in Cape Town to send up a return to Pretoria of any applications they might have for billets and so forth. Now, that institution happened to work under its own Act. It was administered by a Board of most influencial men, and the Government had no right to interfere, and if the Board followed his advice they would simply treat the application of the Government with the contempt it deserved. In other respects the Government had interfered, and asked for information in regard to small finnicky details, which he would not go into at the present moment. Furthermore, applications had to be sent to the Minister which ought to be dealt with on the spot by the local official, who knew all the circumstances. He knew of a case where an application was made I in connection with the foreshore, which took some weeks before permission was got from Pretoria, whereas it might have been decided within very short notice by the local official. The policy of the Government of this extreme centralisation or referring everything to the Minister for decision was creating profound dissatisfaction. Everybody who was acquainted with large public affairs knew that if one was to get the best out of men and produce contentment, one must be content to lay down general principles and leave the administration of these principles to be carried out by the men on the spot, who knew the circumstances of the case and the country. Furthermore, so far as he could see, the Administrator, who had been appointed under the Act of Union, had very little power indeed, and appeared to be bound by the instructions of some Minister. He had to wire for this and that, and nothing could be done without instructions from some Minister or other. His object in bringing forward this motion was to get the Provincial administrations started on proper lines, and to put an end to the present policy of the Government of centralisation. Until the financial relations between the Central and Provincial Governments were properly adjusted, until they knew what revenues were going to be assigned to them, the Provincial Councils, the Administrators, and the Executive Committees had absolutely no power at all. He referred hon. members to clause 118 of the South Africa Act, and said that while the present state of affairs continued, and until the financial relations between the Central Government and the Provincial Councils were properly fixed, the latter could not spend a sixpence. In fact, under the present state of affairs, the Provincial Councils had not as much power as any small Municipality. A Municipality could levy a rate and spend it as it liked, but the Provincial Councils could not spend a penny without the consent of some Minister. This state of affairs had got to continue until the Commission for which he had now moved, and which was to be appointed as early as possible, had been appointed, and had reported. As matters stood at present, all initiative was taken out of the hands of the Administrators, Executive Committees, and Provincials. They could not undertake work without the leave of some Minister. He thought that everyone would admit that it was intended by the Convention that this Commission should be appointed at the earliest possible moment. Of course, it was anticipated that the Commission would take a considerable time to report, and for that reason a special clause was put in to cover that. It was, however, the intention of the Convention that the Commission should be appointed at the earliest possible moment. The Provincial Councils had the right to levy direct taxes, but he did not see how the Government could permit them to do that until the relations between the two bodies were properly defined. How was it possible for the Treasurer to reorganise the financial relations of the four Provinces until he knew what the recommendations of the Commission were going to be? He did not see how the Treasurer could arrive at a proper and permanent reorganisation until he had that report before him. In three Provinces of the Union there was no local government outside the towns. That might have been all right when the Government had to look after the affaire of only one Province, but not now. The explanation given by the Prime Minister for his delay was not valid at all. Under clause 85 of the South Africa Act the powers and functions of the Provincial Councils were clearly laid down. That definition would amply be sufficient to guide any Commission. The only point that might be doubtful was in sub-section 4, regarding agriculture, which was exceedingly indefinite. The report of such a Commission would be a very useful guide indeed as to what parts of agriculture should be left to the Provincial Council and what part should be dealt with by the Central Government. Then the report of the Commission would be a very useful guide indeed as to sub-section 12, “generally all matters which are of merely local nature.” He utterly failed to see why, under such circumstances, the Government should delay the appointment of such a Commission for one moment. The explanation of the Government was absolutely invalid, and was entirely against the spirit and intention of the Act of Union, in which the work of the Provincial Council was clearly and distinctly laid down. He had been trying to find some explanation of the delay of the Government, and the only explanation he could find was Government’s extreme centralisation. Government appeared to wish to confine all the power into its own hands. The result would be the formation of a bureaucracy, for Ministers came and went, but the permanent officials always would be there. The result of Government’s action would be to bring the Provincial Councils into discredit, which was certainly not the intention of the Convention. (Hear, hear.) This country was altogether too big to be run from one centre, and eventually there would be a breakdown. The South Africa Act laid-down very clearly the supremacy of the Central Parliament. In that case, what was there to fear? If the Provincial Councils abused their powers, those powers could easily be taken away. Let Parliament leave as much as possible to the local people, who were acquainted with the circumstances. (Hear, hear.) Were they going to run Natal and Namaqualand on the same lines? He hoped Government would take this into consideration—otherwise there would be grave discontent among the people. (Hear, hear.) If some steps were not taken to devolve more on local people, they would have an agitation among the people to annul the Act of Union. (Cheers.)

thought it would be wise that he should rise thus early in the debate, because it was quite clear, to his mind, after the speech of his hon. friend, that a great deal of confusion appeared to exist in the minds of some of their friends opposite with regard to the functions of the Commission. His hon. friend was apprehensive—he said the Government was anxious to centralise. He (Mr. Hull) desired to repudiate that in the strongest manner possible. He would remind hon. members that they adopted one principle at the National Convention—that the Union of South Africa should proceed on a unitary basis as against the Federal principle:(Hear, hear.) Hon. members opposite should not do anything which would break the unitary principle and establish a Federal principle. Let him put the point of view as he and his colleagues understood it. The Government had no desire—and never had any desire—to delay the appointment of that Commission. But he wanted hon. members, as reasonable men, to consider what the position was. Section 118 of the Act of Union said that the Governor-General-in-Council “shall, as soon as may be after the establishment of Union, appoint a Commission.” In listening to his hon. friend, it did seem to him that his (Mr. Jagger’s) mind was considerably confused. He understood him to say that this Commission would be able to make useful recommendations to Government with regard to keeping the accounts of Union.

No—the working of Union.

Even on that point his mind is in a state of confusion. The functions were to determine the financial arrangements between the Union and Provincial Administrations. Another phrase, continued Mr. Hull, was “as soon as possible after the establishment of Union” in section 141. It was rather important as showing what the South African National Convention, and the lawmakers, had in mind when they employed those words. That phrase was totally different, and intended to be different from “as soon as may be” in the other section. He thought the intention was quite clear that as soon as possible after May 31 the Government should proceed to appoint a Commission whose duties would be to inquire into the public services.

But it was not done.

My hon. friend will have an opportunity of speaking afterwards. Continuing, he said that in section 118, an important section, they were dealing with it, and in section 41 the phrase employed was “as soon as may be in each case.” Clearly, under section 41, the meaning of that phrase was this: A census would first of all have to be taken, and after this had been done some time would necessarily have to elapse. The Government would, have to consider figures and would have to determine whether the Commission was to—

Nonsense!

proceeding, said that “as soon as may be” meant that regard must be had for certain circumstances. There was a difference in the two phrases, and “as soon as may be” was not so imperative as “as soon as possible.” There was a discretionary power left to the Governor-General in Council to say whether the Commission was to be appointed immediately after May 31 or take into account the other concurrent circumstances. After May 31 the Government had considered all the other circumstances. It considered the desirability of appointing that Commission there and then; and the strongest evidence of the bona fides of the intentions of the Government was that it had immediately placed itself in communication with His Majesty’s Government in England, and asked it to recommend an Imperial officer to preside over that Commission. That had been done at a quite early date after May 31, and the Government was fully alive to the importance of that Commission, and most anxious that the best possible Imperial officer from His Majesty’s Government should be obtained. A name was suggested by it, which he was not at liberty to disclose at present, but he might say that he felt sure that if that name were disclosed to the House, it would be welcomed by both sides. It was the name of one of the best officers in the public service of England. It had been pointed out at once that section 118 meant that there would be a long job before the Commission; and there could not be a shadow of a question about it if they looked at the language of the section in question that years would probably have to elapse before the Commission sent in its report. The British Government saw the point—that the work which the Commission might involve would require a long period, and said that it was impossible to supply such an Imperial officer for such a period. Hon. members would, therefore, see the reasons which had induced the Government to go rather slow upon that question. They (the Government) argued, rightly or wrongly, that it was far better for them to get to work as far as they possibly could; to get something established already and certain of the functions of the Provincial Councils, as laid down in section 85. as his hon. friend (Mr. Jagger) had rightly pointed out. The Provincial Council was a new body, and surely hon. members would agree with him that the Government would be very unwise if they proceeded hastily in establishing a Commission which might have injured or affected the smooth working of the Provincial Councils. It was because of the difficulty which had been pointed out, and not the magnitude of the work, that the Government had deliberately said: before that most important Commission was appointed, let them do the spade work first, to see whether they could build something towards that object. He would like the hon. member (Mr. Jagger) to put himself in the position of the Government on May 31. The first point he would put to his hon. friend—he was sure the hon. member had not thought of it—was: how would he have drafted his references to that Commission? (Government cheers.) What points was he going to refer to it? Then, let them suppose his hon. friend were the Commission, and constituted it. He (Mr. Jagger) had had considerable experience in financial matters in South Africa, and claimed, rightly, he (Mr. Hull) thought, to be an authority on finance. Well, what would he have been prepared to recommend on May 31; would he have been prepared, would he be prepared at the present moment, to make recommendations to the Government as to what the financial consideration should be between the two bodies? Was he prepared to say what part of the revenue of the different Provinces should be definitely assigned to these bodies? Would he be prepared to say with regard to education what relations there should be between the Central Government and the Provinces? That question of education was going to be one of the most serious ones so far, as far as the maintenance of education was concerned, in South Africa. The hon. member having alluded to the different systems in vogue in the Provinces with regard to education, whether free or not, asked whether the hon. member (Mr. Jagger) was prepared to make any recommendations on that? The Government was justified in that delay in appointing the Commission, and surely the hon. member was a reasonable man, and did not want the Government to appoint the Commission to sit and twiddle their thumbs and do nothing at all?

What does the Act say the Commission shall do? (Opposition cheers.)

“Institute an inquiry.” (Opposition cheers.) Continuing, the Treasurer said that, speaking for himself, he would say he would be only too pleased to have appointed the Commission on May 31, because these Commissions were always useful buffers between Government and Parliament. (A laugh.) He did want hon. members opposite to be very careful; they did not surely want a Commission to be appointed, and not know what its work was going to be? It was impossible merely to switch the Union machine on May 31, and think that it was going to work smoothly all at once.

said that the greatest danger that confronted the Act of Union was the relation between the Provincial Councils and the Central Government. There was an attempt, a natural attempt, to read the Act in a different way to what was intended, and, of course, people who were connected with the old governments were naturally suspicious, and every reasonable act of the Government, though every act might be perfectly reasonable, was taken as a blow at one Province or another. They saw that sort of thing every day in the Press. That was the dangerous spirit that had to be faced. Everything depended on the proper working of the Provincial (Councils. How were the Provincial Councils to start to work unless on a sound financial basis? How were they to be started on a sound financial basis unless there was a preliminary inquiry? He, like the hon. gentleman who had spoken on the matter, had had something to do with the framing of the Act. He read the section of the Act, which had been referred to, in a precisely opposite way to the hon. the Treasurer. (Opposition cheers.) When they said“ as soon as possible,” it was left to the Government—it was in their discretion—to say whether it was possible or not. When they said not “may,” but “shall as soon as may be,” it meant that a Commission must be appointed without delay. (Hear, hear.) Naturally, the Provincial Councils must be started to work, and it was important for them to know how they were going to settle the question of the financial relations between the Provincial Councils and the Central Government. One of the greatest dangers that he saw ahead of this country, from a financial point of view, was that these Provincial Councils would constitute themselves into so many people elected for ear-wigging Ministers, and knocking at the door trying to get as large a grant as possible. No revenue, however large, would stand that sort of thing, because they would have no revenue of their own to spend above that amount granted by the central authority. The sole revenue these Councils would deal with would be the grants they obtained from the central body. If the financial relations between the central body and the Provincial Councils were not established, the result would be that each Province would endeavour to get as big a grant as possible from the central authority. And that would open the door to a sort of thing which he imagined they had never contemplated. Now, he was very much struck by what his hon. friend had said with regard to the interpretation of the words “as soon as may be,” in clause 41. If the meaning placed upon the words ‘“as soon as may be” were what the hon. gentleman had said, then the Government might keep them waiting while it was considering the figures of the census. But the Government had not to consider that. That was a matter for the Commission to consider. The words in the Act did not mean that, the Government was to consider these figures. That was not the question. The words in the Act were “as soon as possible.” The Minister for Finance had also cross-examined his hon. friend on the other side. He had asked what recommendations would be made. The whole point of the appointment of a Commission was to find out what these recommendations should be. It was not within the province of the Government to make the inquiry. His hon. friend might be a clever man; but they, when they drafted the Act, thought they were clever, and thought quite a lot of their abilities. The question of the rights to be allocated to the Provincial Councils was argued, and argued very fully, and it was in order to get, the matter settled fairly that this Commission for the purpose of inquiry and report was fixed upon. He did not know why it should be a long job; it would certainly be a very arduous job. The figures were there, and the circumstances of the country were known, and, therefore, he did not see why it should take such a very long time. He had come to the conclusion that the Government’s first thought on the matter was best. They went to the British Government and obtained the services of a good man. It was a pity that they did not continue on their first line of thought. He could see when the Provincial Councils met—as meet they must before long—some trouble, because they would have these people worrying at the central Treasury, which was the place from which all good things would come. The Provincial Councils would be knocking at the door from morning to night, and begging for increased grants. He thought that his hon. friend would find he would have a great deal to put up with. He was sorry his hon. friend had shut the door, had slammed the door— though he had not turned the key—to the appointment of this Commission. He (Mr. Merriman) would urge upon the Government the desirability of setting this body to work as soon as possible—the longer the job, the more necessary it was to get to work at once—and put these Provincial Councils upon an understandable footing. What rights the Provincial Councils had was laid down in the Act of Union within certain limits. He did not see the difficulty there. The great question was to know how to allocate to them certain revenue for them to administer. That would be their revenue, and they would then know how to cut their clothes. He did hope that his hon. friend (the Minister of Finance) would reconsider this question. If he had got hold of a good man, let him bring him out at once. He did not see why this officer should not get to work, and the sooner he got to work the better it would be, in his (Mr. Merriman’s) opinion.

said that, after what had been said by his right hon. friend, he did not think more argument was needed. He began to think that the Minister of Finance must have been responsible for the difference in the wording in the clauses of the Act which he quoted, at the time of the Convention. It would hardly have occurred to anyone that there was any distinction—any real, distinction— between the words, “as soon as may be,” and “as soon as possible.” “As soon as may be” certainly meant that the Government was expected at the earliest possible moment, at any rate, without delay, to appoint this Commission. It was not disputed that the Government had not the power to appoint this Commission, and row came the actual question of appointing the Commission. The point was as to whether the Government was to appoint it at the earliest possible moment, and the Government had given a forced meaning to the words of the Act, and come to the conclusion that it should take time to appoint this body of inquiry. He agreed with what had been said by his hon. friend the member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman). The Act laid down precisely, and in no uncertain terms, the work that this Commission should do. The natural thing for the Commission to do was to consider the position of the financial relations between these Provincial Councils and the Central Government. It seemed to him the explanation lay in the habit of a certain section of the Ministry wanting to get as much as possible into their own hands. They were all agreed with what had been said that in Union the Federal principle should not be allowed to creep in. But they were not all agreed that the Union Government should not take the appointment of the Commission into its own Hands irrespective of the Union Parliament it was not the first time that they had had to complain against this tendency on a part of a certain section of the Ministry. Over and over again, in the Transvaal Parliament they had protested against what they called the Government’s autocratic tendency, and he hoped that they were not going to have this tendency displayed in the Union Parliament. He hoped that Parliament was going to be supreme, and that hon. members opposite would take to heart the good advice tendered to them by the right hon. gentleman that they would appoint a Commission as soon as possible. If the Commission was going to take a long time, to report, then surely that was a good reason why it should begin its work early. He saw no reason at all why, because the words “annually submit estimates” occurred in the clause, that that was justification for the Government spinning out the time, and delaying the appointment of a Commission. For these reasons he supported the motion.

said that the words in the clause were that a Commission should be appointed to inquire into the financial relations which should exist between the Union and the Provinces. That being so, he would very much like to know from his hon. friend, the member for Cape Town, Central (Mr. Jagger), in what way this Commission could possibly assist him in obtaining that which he desired—as much autonomy as possible for the various Provinces apart from the Central Government, or, rather, exclusive of the powers of the arbitrary will of the members of the Government. He should very much like his hon. friend to point out in which way this Commission could assist him. He (General Hertzog) wished to point out that the Treasurer was perfectly right when he said that it would have been almost impossible to have appointed the Commission immediately. In fact, it would even that day be unwise to appoint a Commission which was possibly going to last for years. He wished to point out to, his hon. friend clause 85. Among other things, it said that the Provinces should be allowed to deal with matters of agriculture in so far as the Union Parliament left matters to the Provinces. There was another clause from which it would appear that the Treasurer was perfectly right when he said that before a Commission was appointed to deal with the financial relation they must first of all lay down what the ordinary relations should be between the Union and the Provinces. Unless they laid that down, on what basis could this Commission proceed, and how was this Commission going to say that it would propose that such and such provision should be made for the Provinces in regard to agriculture; if first of all the Union Parliament had not settled that agriculture would be left to the Provinces. It was for that reason that the words “as soon as may be” were inserted, and until the ordinary relations between the Union and the Provinces were settled he submitted it would not be advisable to appoint a Commission to decide upon the financial relations between the Union Government and the Councils. He submitted that in spite of what hon. members had said in regard to the autocratic behaviour of the Government the best thing that could possibly be done would be to leave the matter in the hands of the Government.

reminded the Government that they had been in office six months, and he asked how long hon. members had to wait to get information of any description. He sincerely sympathised with the members of the Government, because he thought that ever since they had been in office they had been living not only in one crisis, but in perpetual crises. He thought that the year 1910 would go down in the history of the country as a year of administrative chaos and confusion. He would like to say how necessary it was that information should be obtained, because the Minister of Finance had stated that the Commission was going to take years, and if it did he thought there was a very poor outlook for the country. He referred to clause 127 of the Act of Union, which provided that the railways had to be run at cost price within four years of the establishment of Union, and until they got the information they asked for they would not be able to carry out clause 127. He did not think there; should be any delay in appointing this Commission. Hon. members on his side of the House had been chided about asking for published information, but he thought he might use the phrase that it was a very foolish remark of the Treasurer, because all they asked for was this— give them a statement of the consolidated revenue of the various colonies on May 51 last and the position of the various loan Acts. It showed what confusion the affairs of the Minister of Finance were in when he could not give them the position of the Union six months ago. That was a reasonable question, but the Minister of Finance chided them with undue haste. He agreed with the Minister of Finance in one respect, that if the Government wilfully withheld information which it had at hand then the machinery of Union would never work smoothly. (Opposition cheers.)

regretted that he had not been present during the greater part of the debate, and that he had not been able to follow the arguments of the mover or the Treasurer. He had come in in time to see the poor old horses of autocracy and Government crisis trotted out. (Laughter.) They in the Transvaal had session after session listened to this charge of autocracy.

It did you no good.

It made no difference. Continuing, he said they had taken up the position that what South Africa required was strong and good Government, and he hoped—despite all charges of autocracy—South Africa would continue to enjoy good and, strong government. In regard to the rumours which had been in circulation during the past six months of a crisis in the Government, he believed the Cabinet would be quite strong enough to weather any crisis that might arise. (Government cheers.) The position (proceeded General Smuts) was a very simple one. Under the Constitution the Government was bound to appoint a certain Commission. Well, what would be the problem before the Commission? It would be this—on the one hand the Provincial Councils would have to perform certain; functions, and on the other hand the Central Government would have to discharge certain functions. It had been said that the functions of the Provincial Councils, were defined in the Act of Union, but there were certain questions left open, which Government might decide. Take the matter of agriculture. Surely it was quite necessary before they could say what the agricultural functions of the Provincial Councils were going to be that Parliament should first settle the question. Suppose he administration of the Scab or Other Animals Diseases Act in the Cape Province were Submitted to the Provincial Council an enormous financial provision would have at Once to be made to meet those services. That had been the position he had felt all along about this Commission. The Commission would say at once “What are our functions going to be? Is the Scab Act going to be administered by the Provincial Councils?” There was another subject which was left open—matters of merely a local nature. He thought they would have to go much more slowly over this ground than hon. members opposite felt necessary. There were other questions outstanding, which they would have to make up their minds about. That afternoon the question of equalisation of taxation had been raised. Suppose the Natal poll tax remained on the Statute-book; he thought one of the first things which the Commission would do would be to saddle Natal with this poll tax.

The Provincial Council can repeal it.

We have a number of taxes which everybody admits ought to be revised, but before that is done, it is proposed that a Commission Should allocate the finances. The result will be that if hon. members press for a Commission, the Commission will simply consider the existing sources of taxation, and the Provinces will be saddled with taxes, for which they, will have to thank hon. members opposite. We have no sinister motives. We are all determined on both sides of the House to make a success of Union, and I think it is much better for us to see what are the permanent sources of taxation which should survive into Union, and when the functions of the Provincial Councils have finally been settled, allocate to them certain taxes. Then you would have your Provincial Council services put on a proper footing. We do not adopt any hostile attitude at all to the motion, but, we say that the matter requires very careful consideration. I don’t think it will be possible to delay much longer with this Commission —(Opposition cheers)—but before doing so, Government should wait until Parliament has given expression of opinion on certain matters. (Hear, hear.)

said he regretted that the last speaker was not in the House when the hon. member for Cape Town, Central (Mr. Jagger) spoke, because then he would have recognised the weighty arguments used by that gentleman. Opinion was gaining ground in the Cape that it was the intention of Government to concentrate in its hands every possible power, and to fritter away absolutely the powers of the Provincial Councils. The purpose of the Commission was to inquire into the financial arrangements which should exist between the Provinces and the Union, and then Parliament could decide. He hoped hon. members would learn that it was Parliament that governed, and not any particular Ministry which sat on the Government benches. (Laughter.) The Treasurer said that Government was the interpreter of the Act of Union. (Government cries of “No.”) What were they going to do in the meantime? He understood that estimates had been submitted to the Government in connection with the Provincial Councils. Who submitted those estimates to the Government?

The Administrators.

Continuing, said that, according to the Act of Union, the Provincial Council estimates would have to be framed by an Executive Council of the Province concerned. The Ministers of Finance, Justice, and the Interior had referred very strongly to clause 85 and sub-section 4 of that clause, which dealt with agriculture, and stated that the powers of the Provincial Council with regard to that should be the powers which Parliament had delegated to them. His hon. friends had not read the other clauses, which gave very considerable powers to the Provincial Council. Were all the other clauses to wait until the Government had dealt with the agricultural powers of the Provincial Council? Was the Act of Union to be set at naught until the Government brought in a Bui to deal with the powers of the Provincial Council with regard to agriculture? The Act laid down that the Government should give to the Provincial Council a certain sum of money for primary and secondary education, and certain money for carrying it on. The Provincial Council had the power given to it to raise taxation, and that was really what the horn, member (Mr. Jagger) had laid such stress upon, and these were the powers which the people of the Cape Province would like to see exercised. The idea of the appointment of the Provincial Council, and giving it the power to raise money /by taxation was that the jury chosen, which was the representative of the people, should raise taxation by legitimate means as Laid down under clause 85. He dad hope that his hon. friends opposite would not continue to interpret the various clauses of the Constitution, but would allow the various clauses to be carried out as they stood. (Hear, hear.) When the Minister of Finance asked what was the proper thing to refer to the Commission, he would reply that clause 118 was the proper thing to submit, and not to receive certain instructions from the Government with regard to that clause. (Opposition cheers.)

said that the hon. member (Dr. Smartt) and the hon. member for Georgetown (Sir G. Farrar) were largely complaining of the results of their own work, as they had been members of the Convention. He had listened with reverence to the Minister of Finance and to his lesson on the difference between “as soon as possible” or “as soon as may be’’—(Laughter)—but the right hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) had contradicted the Minister of Finance. He had looked up the Dutch version of the South Africa Act, which stated “zoodra mogelyk,” which meant “as soon as may be,” “as soon as possible,” to his mind, or “immediately.” So that did not take them any further. Hon. members, who had been members of the Convention, and who had just spoken, contradicted each other. He referred to what had been done in Canada. In conclusion, he moved the adjournment of the debate.

This was agreed to.

The debate was adjourned until Friday.