as Chairman, brought up the report of the Select Committee, on Joint Address to His Majesty the King as follows:

Report of the Select Committee, appointed by Order of the House of Assembly, dated the 4th November, 1910, with power to confer with a Select Committee of the Senate, for the purpose of preparing a Joint Address to His Majesty the King, in reply to His Most Gracious Messages, which have been conveyed by His Royal Highness the Duke of Connaught and Strathearn to the Parliament of the Union of South Africa; the Committee to consist of Mr. Speaker, Dr. Jameson, and the Prime Minister. Your. Committee, having conferred with a similar Committee of the Senate, have the honour to recommend the following Address to His Majesty the King: “To His Most Gracious Majesty, George Y. By the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and of the British Dominions beyond the Sea, King, Defender of the Faith, Emperor of India. May it please Your Majesty. We Your Majesty’s most dutiful and loyal subjects, the President and Members of the Senate, and the Speaker and Members of the House of Assembly of the Union of South Africa in Parliament assembled, humbly beg to tender to Your Majesty our heartfelt thanks for Your Majesty’s Most Gracious Messages, conveyed by His Royal Highness the Duke of Connaught and Strathearn on the occasion of the Opening of the First Parliament of the Union of South Africa. And we humbly assure Your Majesty of our continued loyalty and devotion to Your Majesty’s Throne and Person,” J. T., Molteno, Chairman.

Committee Rooms, House of Assembly, 8th November, 1910.

On the motion of

seconded by Mr. J. W. VAN EEDEN (Swellendam):

The report was considered and adopted.

Delimitation Commission under the South; Africa Act, 1909;

Statistics of the Transvaal Colony, 1904-1909;

Annual Report Meteorological Department (Transvaal Observatory), year ended 30th June, 1909.

moved that leave of absence from Monday to Friday, 18th inst., be granted the hon. member for Bloemfontein (Mr. C. L. Botha).

seconded.

asked:(a) Whether the Government is aware that applications from farmers for loans under the Cape Colony Fencing Act, No. 37 of 1909, have been met with the reply that the funds available for such loans are exhausted, and that in consequence very important contemplated works are being hung up; (b) whether it is the intention of Government at an early date to apply to Parliament for authority to devote a further sum of money to the purposes of the above Act, and whether in the meanwhile some arrangement could not become to so as to avoid interruption in the continuity of the development contemplated by the Act?

asked that the question stand over.

asked: (a) What is the number of boxes or bags of potatoes and their approximate value, the produce of the Cape, Natal, and the Orange Free State which have been destroyed, sorted, or reconsigned under the Transvaal regulations, from January 1, 1909, to date; and (b) what is the number of cases of fruit and their value, the produce of the Cape, Natal, and the Orange Free State that have been destroyed, sorted or reconsigned under the Transvaal regulations from January 1, 1909, to date?

replied that the total number of bags of potatoes destroyed was 472, made up as follows: Cape, 202; Natal, 244; Orange Free State, 26. The total number of hags of potatoes sorted was 43,412—Cape, 14,516; Natal, 9,122; and Orange Free State, 19,774. The total number of bags of potatoes reconsigned was 3,935-Cape, 1,975; Natal, 1,209; and Orange Free State, 670. The total number of packages of fruit destroyed was 3,142—Cape, 974; Natal, 2,161; and Orange Free State, 7. The total number of packages of fruit sorted was 25,894-Cape, 25,843; Natal, 51; and Orange Free State, nil. The total number of packages of fruit reconsigned was 10,600—Cape, 7,063; Natal, 2,978; and Orange Free State, 19. It was regretted that the Government was not in a position to give the value of these bags and packages.

asked whether it was true that slaughter sheep intended for the Transvaal market, after having been passed by the Colonial inspectors as free from scab, were refused by the inspector at the port of entry; whether it is due to the fact that the latter has stronger magnifying glasses for detecting scab than the Colonial inspectors, and whether he intends taking steps to remove this grievance?

In many instances sheep sent to the Transvaal were found on arrival in that Province to be scabby, notwithstanding that the sheep were accompanied by a certificate of freedom from scab, issued by the inspector of the Province from which the sheep were sent. It is thought that this was largely due to the inspectors who certified the sheep free from scab not having had microscopes to assist them. This is being rectified by a supply of microscopes to inspectors oh the railway lines.

asked whether the Government intended to introduce legislation during the present session to lower the transfer duty of 4 per cent. in the Cape Colony and to introduce a uniform transfer duty for the whole Union of South Africa?

said the reply was in the negative. The lowering of the transfer duty would mean the abandonment of revenue, which the country could not afford at the present time.

asked whether, in view of the close proximity of East Coast Fever to the border of the Cape Colony proper, the Government contemplate introducing (during the present session of Parliament) legislation to amend the provisions of the Cattle Cleansing Act of the Cape Province?

The Cattle Cleansing Act of the Cape provides briefly that cattle on public roads or other public places shall not be tick-infested in those districts in which the Act has been proclaimed in force, on the request of the local Divisional Councils. This Act has been proclaimed in about twelve districts only, showing that in a comparatively large number of districts the value of such legislation is not appreciated. This Act was passed after a Select Committee had considered the matter, and it was amended last year by empowering Divisional Councils to appoint special inspectors, towards whose salaries the Government has to contribute. Hardly any Divisional Councils took advantage of this provision. This amending Act was also passed after inquiry by a Select Committee. The information I have given indicates that it would be unwise to force on the public generally a law for which the country does not appear to be ripe. I am aware that the Farmers’ Central Association has passed a resolution in favour of a compulsory Cleansing Act throughout the tick area. If such legislation were applied to the Cape, it would have to be made applicable also to other Provinces. The expense involved—as experience has shown in the Transkeian Territories, in some of the districts of which compulsory cleansing has been introduced— would be very great. Under these circumstances, the Government does not see its way clear to introduce legislation to amend the Cattle Cleansing Act of the Cape at present. The Government believes in the cleansing of cattle by dipping, and are anxious to encourage it as much as possible, but at the same time do not consider the time quite ripe for its universal application.

asked whether, as far as remission and extension of time for repayment are concerned, the Government intends to place the repatriation debtors in the Orange Free State on the same footing as those in the Transvaal?

replied that the policy and general scheme of repatriation of the Orange Free State and Transvaal differed very materially, and it would not be possible to adopt a uniform system in regard to the collection of outstanding debts.

asked whether it is the intention of the Government this session to introduce legislation for the construction of new railways, and, if so, whether the Government will kindly consider the inclusion of the following lines, viz.:(1) A line from the Gamtoos Railway Bridge to Hankey, and, if possible, up the Gamtoos Valley; (2) the deviation of Sort Elizabeth-Avontuur line from Kabeljauws’ River through Ferreira’s Town and Jeffrey’s Bay; and (3) the extension of the Port Elizabeth-Avontuur line from Avontuur?

replied that he was Very sorry to say that he could not satisfy his hon. friend’s curiosity. The matter of railway extension was being considered, and later on in the session the House would be informed of the intentions of the Government. Should the Government decide to introduce further legislation, he could promise his hon. friend every sympathetic consideration. (Laughter.) As an old member of the House, the questioner knew what it meant if you gave a man your sympathy. (Renewed laughter.)

asked: (1) What are the reasons for the cancellation of the Notice by the late Transvaal Minister for Native Affairs informing Kafirs on the farms of owners who only employ Kafir labour that from July, 1910, they must live in their locations; and (2) what steps does the Government intend taking to give effect to the definite promise made by the late Transvaal Minister for Native Affairs on August 21, 1908, that in future the Squatters Act, No. 21 of 1095 (Transvaal) would be strictly enforced?

reply was inaudible, as he spoke with his back to the Chair.

On a point of order, could not the Minister address the House?

The hon. member is quite in order.

On the Minister resuming his Seat,

said that hon. members on the Opposition side of the House had not heard a word of that interesting conversation. (Laughter.)

asked whether the Government intended to introduce a Bill during the present session to give effect to the recommendation contained in the report of the Bewaarplaatsen Commission?

It is hoped to introduce legislation in reference to the recommendations of the Commission referred to by the honourable member, but certain preliminary matters of detail are still being inquired into.

asked whether instructions have at any time been given by the Government to field-cornets in the Transvaal forbidding them to take aft active part in politics?

replied that the following circular was sent by the Department of Agriculture, Pretoria, on September 3, 1910, to all field-cornets and scab inspectors: “With reference to the above-mentioned matter I am directed to inform you that notwithstanding the fact that field-cornets and scab inspectors cannot be considered as officers who devote their whole time to the public service, the Minister is of opinion that it would be better if these officers do not take an active part in politics, and the Minister will therefore be pleased if the officers Concerned will, in future, act in accordance with this instruction.” (Cheers.)

asked (1) Whether it is true that a large number of officials in the Public Works Department at Bloemfontein have been removed to Pretoria, and that the work in that Department at Bloemfontein is practically at a standstill; and (2) will he state when the Government intends) to commence the various public works in the Orange Free State for which votes wore passed at the last session of the late Parliament of the Orange River Colony, and whether the money so voted is still available for that purpose

replied to the first portion of the question in the negative. Only three draughtsmen had been sent to Pretoria, but on the other hand an engineer had been transferred from the Transvaal to Bloemfontein. With reference to the second portion of the question, the Government had already in hand a substantial programme of public work in the Free State. The rest of the original programme would be dealt with as time and opportunity would permit. The estimates of expenditure for the current financial year would give the hon. member a clear and full indication of the proposals of the Government.

I think the hon. member misunderstood my question, which is whether the money voted by the late Orange River Colony Parliament is still available for the purpose.

I referred the hon. member to the Estimates. Some of the money voted lapsed, and some will still be available.

asked: (a) Whether the Government is aware that a disease known as sheep-pox is decimating the flocks of sheep-owners on the German border, north of the Orange River, and knows the nature of the disease? (b) Whether the islands on the Orange River, along the German boundary form part of the territory of the Union or not? (c) Whether it is true that infected sheep are being grazed upon those islands, and are a source of danger? (d) Whether any means are employed to prevent the skins of animals, which have died of the disease, from being imported into the Union, (e) whether the Government is taking any steps, and if so, in what manner to prevent the spread of the disease into the Union and more especially to the south of the Orange River?

in the course of his reply, said that the Government was aware of the outbreak of the disease in German territory, but it was reported from the border that they knew nothing of the disease there. A telegram had been sent to the German authorities; but no reply, had as yet been received. The Government had no information of any sheep being imported from German territory into the Union. Every step would be taken to prevent the spread of the disease.

asked the Minister of the Interior whether the Government is aware that certain seven Jewish immigrants, among them a woman and two children, who arrived at Gape Town on Monday last by the Galeka, were subjected to different treatment to other immigrants, who arrived by the same vessel, in that the said Jewish immigrants had to clamber from the ship down a rope ladder into a boat, and were then taken ashore to a shed where mules are usually examined, and were there examined, whereas the other immigrants wore examined on board ship, and, if so, why were these distinctions made? The hon. member said that, in line 6 of his question, the word “usually” had been omitted.

If the question has been misprinted, the hon. member can give further notice of the question, because the Minister may have been misinformed.

said he was quite prepared to answer the question as originally framed. He replied: The information on which the hon. member based his question is entirely erroneous. On the occasion referred to some 100 or more passengers of various nationalities, whom it was impossible to examine on board the vessel without serious delay, were transferred by means of a tug to the Immigration Examination Office. There were no children amongst these passengers. All left the vessel, on her mooring in the dock, by means of the ordinary passenger exit. No passengers are required or allowed to leave a vessel by a rope ladder. No differentiation is made between Jewish and other immigrants to this country. (Hear, hear.)

asked when a commencement will be made with the survey of the proposed railway line from Reitz, via Frankfort, to the Vaal River the construction of which was sanctioned by Act No. 36, 1909 (Orange River Colony), from a point near Bethlehem to a point on the Vaal River, near Villiers?

said that they were now busy between Reitz and Frankfort.

asked whether any regulations have been framed prescribing the duties and procedure of the Board of Railway Commissioners appointed under clause 126 of the South Africa Act, 1909, for the purpose of controlling and managing the railways, ports, and harbours of the Union; and, if so, whether he will cause the same to be published?

said that regulations had been framed, and would shortly be published.

asked the Prime Minister whether the Public Service Commission has issued any report; and, if so, whether the Government will lay the same on the table of the House?

No such report had been rendered yet.

asked: (1) Whether he is aware that up to the present practically nothing has been done by the post and telegraph offices in many places to carry out the provisions of section one hunderd and thirty-seven of the South Africa Act, 1909, with regard to the equality of the Dutch and English languages, and that thereby great inconvenience is being caused to the Dutch-speaking section of the population; and (2) whether he has given instructions to those sub-departments to secure the rights of the Dutch language under the Act, and, if not, whether he will do so?

said that every effort was being made to carry out the provisions of the section in question, so that all men in the Post Office or Telegraph Office would be bilingual. In the Gape Province no man was appointed unless he was familiar with both languages, and this would be applied over the whole of the Union. (Hear, hear.) Further, all notices were published in both English and Dutch.

asked the Prime Minister: Whether, should the Government decide not to extend the operations of the Land Bank to the whole of the Union, they will take into favourable consideration the question of providing a sum of money for advances to farmers at a low rate of interest for the purpose of developing agriculture, and for purposes other than those provided for by the Irrigation and Fencing Acts?

was understood to reply that it was the intention of the Government, as soon as opportunity offered, to have uniformity in regard to Land Bank matters.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: Whether, in reference to his statement made in this House on the 8th inst., to the effect that all reasonable grievances of the employees in the Transvaal section of the South African Railways are being remedied, he is prepared to inform the House (a) whether the grievances arising through the system of pay and allowances to the daily paid men will be removed by adopting the system of consolidated pay; and, if not, (b) whether he will immediately do away with the existing system whereby daily-paid men working overtime are paid for such overtime at the rate of their pay only, and not at a rate of their combined pay and allowance?

said that he saw the hon. member referred to “grievances.” Well, he knew some people thought that they were grievances and others that there were not. There was a great difference of opinion on that point. He might say that it was not intended to alter the system, and adopt the system of consolidated pay. He would not go into the reasons at that stage: they could discuss, it later. In the same way, in regard to the second question, it was not intended to do away with the present system. He might say, however, that that question of pay for overtime was under consideration, and he hoped that they would be able to effect some uniformity. Proceeding, the hon. member went on to speak of the transportation system, and was understood to say that it was, of course, in vogue over the whole of South Africa, but was comparatively recently only in vogue on the C.S.A.R. system of railways—not in Rhodesia or the Cape Colony. Some little while after Union the system was begun on the lines of the whole of th9 Union, and was gradually being extended. He thought that it was no breach of confidence to say that there was a great deal of difference of opinion whether that was the best system or not.

Is it in operation in the Cape?

Yes, we may say so.

It is never too late to mend. (Laughter.)

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: Whether, in view of the fact that the Barroekraal Station is the postal and principal station for the village of Steytlerville, and that trains pass there in the night, it is the intention of the Government to make better provision for passengers by the erection of a proper waiting-room?

said that he would give the information to his hon. friend later.

asked for leave to introduce a Bill to establish public holidays within the Union of South Africa.

seconded.

Leave was granted and the Bill was read a first time.

The second reading was proposed by the mover to be set down for to-morrow.

objected to the second reading being set down for that day. It was altogether to) early, he said, and they wanted more time.

said that he thought the day in question was a suitable one, but he was prepared to meet the hon. member. It was a non-contentious measure.

The second reading was then set down for Monday next.

asked for leave to introduce a Bill to provide for the taking of a census throughout the Union in the year 1,911, and from time to time thereafter.

seconded.

Leave was granted and the Bill was read a first time. The second reading was set down for to-morrow.

asked for leave to introduce a Bill to consolidate and amend the laws in force in the Union relating to the naturalisation of aliens.

seconded.

Leave was granted, and the Bill was read a first time. The second reading was set down for Monday.

asked for leave to introduce a Bill to amend the law reflating to the jurisdiction and procedure of the Appellate Division of the Supreme Count of South Africa.

Seconded

Leave was granted.

The Bill was read a first time, and set down for second reading on Monday next.

asked for leave to introduce a Bill to impose liabilities upon the Crown in respect of acts of its servants.

seconded.

Leave was granted.

The Bill was read a first time.

moved that the second reading be taken on the following day.

protested, and moved as an amendment that it he read a second time on Monday.

supported the amendment, saying that such a rush had not taken place before. These were not reasonable lines on which to carry on business. It might be a joke to the Minister of Justice, but it was a serious question to the people concerned.

said that the usual form was being followed, and he did not see why objection should be taken to this procedure.

said he thought the Minister should accept a reasonable amendment.

said that as he was “a man of peace”—(laughter)— he would withdraw, and ask that the Bill be read on Monday next.

The motion as amended was agreed to.

asked for leave to introduce a Bill to consolidate the laws of the several Provinces of the Union, interpreting and shortening the language of any statute now or hereafter in force within the Union or any portion (thereof.

seconded.

Leave was granted.

The Bill was read a first time, and set down for second reading on Wednesday next.

moved that the Dutch Reformed Churches Union Bill be referred to a Select Committee the members to be appointed understanding rule and order No. 376.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved that Messrs. Krige and H. W. Sampson be members of the Select Committee on Internal Arrangements and Superintendence of Refreshment Rooms.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved that the Government be requested to take into consideration the advisability of reducing the return freight for sheep conveyed by rail from and to their districts during a period of drought. The hon. member said that all stook-farmers in the North-western districts were clamouring for the reduction. It was but fair that some measure of relief should be granted to sheep farmers in time of drought, by way of low tariffs for the transport of sheep from dry regions to districts where there was sufficient pasturage. Trekking with cattle was in the interests of the whole of the community because, unless it was resorted to, hundreds of heads of cattle would die during dry seasons, and this would affect others besides the owners. Once again, the North-west was suffering from drought; hundreds of sheep were dying although there was good veld in other districts. He trusted the hon. member for Fort Beaufort would support the motion. The Railway Administration had no power to reduce the tariff without parliamentary sanction hence his motion. He advocated relief in the following manner: farmers should pay the full rates on consigning cattle to another district, but if the same herd returned, half the amount paid should be refunded. Or, where the owner was unable to put down the cash at once, the Railway should undertake to remove the cattle on credit, the full price for one journey being paid on their return. Since he realised, however, that some people were not to be trusted, there could be no objection to a guarantee being required if the latter plan was adopted.

who seconded, said that the requests came from districts which had been “punished by Nature,” and where drought reigned. Of late the restrictions had become very rigorous, and there was complaint amongst the farmers of these districts. The motion was a very reasonable one.

said that the Government had not that freedom to deal with railway questions as it had under the old conditions. Whether that met with the approval of Parliament or not he did not know, but that was the case. The present railway charge were reasonable, but he would take the whole matter into consideration.

Agreed to.

moved for a return showing:(a) A list of all appointments mode in the Administrative Branches of the public service since the 31st May, 1910, together with (b) the increase of salary in the cases of those previously in the service of any Province of the Union: (c) the salary in the case of all appointments of persons not in the service of any Province; (d) a list of persons retrenched or dismissed; and (e) a statement of the pension or gratuities paid in each case. In the old Cape House, he said, when retrenchment took place a full return, with similar information, was laid upon the table of the House. He did not think he was asking for more than the House was entitled to.

seconded.

said he did not rise to oppose the request, but his hon. friend in his remarks alluded to the Civil Service while the Public Service was mentioned in the motion. He would point out that if the literal request were carried out the labour involved would be great, and much time would be spent in compiling such a return.

moved an amendment to the following effect:(f) A statement giving a list of Civil Servants in the Service on May 31; 1910, of European descent (1) from outside the Union (2) those born within the Union.

seconded.

said that after what had been said by the Minister of Railways and Harbours, he would ask that the words, “the administrative branch of the” be placed before the words “public service.”

withdrew his amendment.

The motion was agreed to.

moved for a return showing:(1) The following particulars as to the amount of railway traffic in connection with Butterworth railway station: (a) The tonnage of goods inwards received during the months of August, September, and October of the current year; (b) the amount received for the carriage of the same; (c) the amount received for passenger traffic during the said three months; (d) the tonnage of wool and other agricultural and pastoral produce received to be forwarded by rail during the month of October of the current year; (e) the amount received or chargeable for the carriage of the same; (2) The same particulars as the foregoing with regard to the Railway traffic at Ndabakazi Station and Toleni bridge and Eagle sidings.

seconded.

said the preparation of the returns would involve a great deal of expenditure, and unless the information were elucidated, it would only be misleading, for up to the time of the outbreak of tick fever, the railway did not pay.

hoped the return would be very valuable, as indicating the traffic which might be hoped for if the ox-wagon traffic were done away with.

said it was absolutely necessary that more accommodation should be given on the railway if the traffic was to be dealt with.

The motion was agreed to.

moved That this House desires to place on record its recognition of the Valuable and enduring work in the perfecting of South African Parliamentary procedure, accomplished by Sir Ernest F. Kilpin, while holding the office of Clerk of the House of Assembly of the Cape of Good Hope.

The mover said he thought that after what fell from the Minister of Railways the other day, it was necessary that he (Sir Bisset) should say a word as to why he insisted on that motion, particularly in reference to what the Minister said regarding the claims of other officers in other parts of the Union. As far as he (Sir Basset) understood, no resolution of that kind was passed by the old Cape House before it dissolved, and be further understood that in the other Legislatures special resolutions were taken thanking their retiring Clerks. As far as the question was concerned, whether a motion of that kind ought to be debated by that Parliament, as far as he knew, the services of Sir Ernest Kilpin was taken advantage of by every Legislature in South Africa. Sir Ernest Kilpin had a reputation in that respect which no other Clerk had in the matter of Parliamentary procedure. He (Sir Bisset) did not wish to make remarks about other officers, but it would be admitted by all that Sir Ernest was entitled to their sincerest thanks—(cheers)— because his position was altogether an unique one. Sir Ernest practically had retired from public life, and it was desirable that the House should recognise the value of his services. When Sir Erskine May retired from the position of Clerk to the British House of Commons, he was thanked by the House and was raised to the peerage, and was given a very handsome allowance. The Union Parliament, might do worse than place on record some appreciation of the valuable services of an old and distinguished officer, who for thirty years sat at the table of the Cape Assembly.

seconded.

moved as an amendment that the House also express its appreciation of the valuable work of the late Clerks of the Transvaal, Natal, and O.R.C. Parliaments, Messrs. J. R. Hofmeyr, A. M. N. de Villiers, and J. W. Sweeney.

seconded.

said that, as one who had sat in the place which the Speaker now occupied, he would like to say a few words about Sir Ernest Kilpin. He hoped it would be understood that he did not wish to say anything at all that might seem to take away from the merits of those gentlemen who had been mentioned. The Parliamentary procedure that they were adopting was the procedure that had grown up in the old Cape House, and in assisting to bring about that procedure there was no doubt that Sir Ernest Kilpin was a very great factor. Sir Ernest Kilpin became Clerk of the House shortly after he (Sir Henry Juta) became Speaker and it was under him that their present Clerk of the House gained the experience which had placed him in the position he now occupied. Sir Ernest was of the very greatest use, not only with regard to public legislation, but with regard also to private legislation, and those who had been in the chair, knew that it had been a question of considerable difficulty to bring the procedure into its present state. Sir Ernest rendered great assistance to those who had sat in the chair, and he wished it had been possible that this House, the first Parliament of the Union, would have seen its way to retain his services, at any rate, for a period, because his heart and soul was in the work, and it would have been to him something to look forward to to have been present at the meeting of this House with regard to which he had so much to do, and with regard to whose procedure also he had a great deal to do. However, other counsels had prevailed, and he knew they were all very glad indeed in having in his place a gentleman who had grown up in the old Cape House, who had been accustomed to their procedure, and who had always shown himself thoroughly capable of dealing with Parliamentary procedure. But he (Sir Henry Juta) would like to say that it was a pity that the hon. member for Boshof (Mr. van Niekerk) had moved his amendment, because, after all, what they were dealing with was really the building up of Parliamentary procedure in this country, with which, for over thirty years, the late Clerk of the Cape House had so much to do. He would suggest that the amendment be taken as a substantive resolution. He could only say that he was sure that the other gentlemen were quite worthy of recommendation, and as regarded Sir Ernest, he thought the Union Parliament was very much indebted to him for his labours with regard to Parliamentary procedure in this country.

said he hoped the hon. member for Boshof would adopt the suggestion of the hon. member for Cape Town Harbour, and bring forward his amendment as a substantive resolution. The motion of the hon. member for Queen’s Town was a special motion, and the wording of it hardly agreed with the other names mentioned. The motion was recognising the services of one who had had a special place in building up the Parliamentary procedure in South Africa. Sir Ernest was the father of their present Clerk in the matter of Parliamentary procedure; he was also the father and teacher of the Clerks of the Houses in Natal and the Orange Free State; and he occupied an unique position in this matter.

said that he hoped the hon. member for B shop would re-consider his amendment, and withdraw it. His object in bringing forward his motion was to get the House to recognise the altogether unique position occupied by Sir Ernest Kilpin, and the altogether unique position he Pad enjoyed as an authority in South Africa on Parliamentary procedure. With all respect to the other gentlemen mentioned, he felt that if their names were added to his motion it would take out of it his real point.

said that this was a very unusual motion If the motion and amendment were pushed forward, it would mean that members would be voting upon the merits of men of whom some members of the House had no acquaintance whatever. He did not think that his hon. friend (Sir Bisset Berry) would have considered it necessary, after what had been said by the leader of the Opposition in reference to Sir Ernest Kilpin’s services, to table a motion, because he saw it was open to exactly what had taken place. It was only to be expected that the representatives of the other States would desire to take some cognisance of the services of their respective Clerks. If the motion was carried with the amendment, it would rob it of the compliment to Sir Ernest Kilpin. Those who worked with him knew the eminent services he had rendered, but there were in the House members who came from other parts of the country who did not have an acquaintance with him, and yet they were asked to pass this motion, which he thought was rather out of place in this House. He hoped, therefore, the hon. member for Queen’s Town would see his way to withdraw his motion.

said that he was rather inclined to agree with the right hon. gentleman for Victoria West that the amendment would rob the motion of its compliment to Sir Ernest Kilpin. Having brought them forward, he thought that to withdraw them would be practically to tell Sir Ernest Kilpin and the other Clerks that they were not worthy of the thanks of the House. He believed that they had better get out of the difficulty with as little damage as possible, and consequently he thought the best suggestion was that the hon. member (Mr. van Niekerk) who had moved the amendment should withdraw it, and bring it forward as a substantive motion. He reminded the House that the Commissioner of Railways, when his hon. friend for Queen’s Town was anxious to tack on his resolution to the resolution for the appointment of Clerk of the House, said that it was not fitting to bring it forward then, and suggested that he should bring it forward separately. The argument of the right hon. member for Victoria West that some of the members did not know Sir Ernest Kilpin did not hold water, because everyone who had aspired to be a member of Parliament, and everyone who had anything to do with Parliamentary procedure, knew him. It was well known that the whole procedure of the Transvaal and Free State Houses was laid down by Sir Ernest Kilpin. He hoped that the hon. member (Mr. van Niekerk) would see his way to withdraw his amendment, and he would ask the Prime Minister to support him.

said he hoped the hon. member for Boshof would withdraw his amendment. There seemed to him to be very good reason for passing the resolution as originally moved with reference to Sir Ernest Kilpin. Not only was that gentleman Clerk of the late House of Assembly of the oldest colony in South Africa, but he had held that position for a long time, and had a far greater experience than any other contemporary Parliamentary officer in the country. He did not think it appropriate to include in the particular resolution before the House the names of other Clerks, however estimable their services to their respective Parliaments had been.

said he had not expected his amendment to provoke so much discussion. In his opinion, the gentlemen mentioned in his amendment had done as much for Parliamentary procedure in South Africa as those mentioned in the original motion, and it would be unfair to pass them over. He certainly did not intend to refuse credit where credit was due, but if the motion passed, the door would practically to closed against others; he did not see why his amendment should be withdrawn, and thought the House should decide.

fully agreed with the previous speaker. He regretted the fact that the Cape Parliament had not passed a vote of thanks to Sir E. Kilpin, but he (the speaker) did not know Sir Ernest. Many hon. members were in the same position, and it would hardly do to pass such a motion on hearsay evidence. Hon. members who happened to know Clerks in other Provinces were, of course, anxious to recognise the services of those Clerks, and the House would not be doing its duty if it recognised what had been dome by one particular officer, while refusing to act similarly towards others. For that reason he trusted the amendment would be insisted on.

said he was very glad to see the attitude taken up in this matter by the Hon. the Minister for Justice. By the withdrawal of the amendment, and the passing of the resolution as moved by the hon. member for Queen’s Town, no slight would be placed upon the Clerks of the late Transvaal, Orange Free State, and Natal Parliaments, and he appealed to the Hon. the Prime Minister whether it was not possible for the resolution to be passed as originally moved. He was sure that if the amendment was subsequently moved as a substantive motion it would be cordially carried by the House.

said he regretted that the hon. member for Queen’s Town had proposed such an invidious motion, singling out one particular officer for the thanks of Parliament, while many Parliamentary officers had rendered good service. The amendment was moved because the services of others were recognised, and this had caused the difficulty to which the right hon. member for Victoria West had drawn attention. He wished it to be fully understood that, if a certain position wore taken up by hon. members on his side of the House, nothing derogatory to Sir Ernest Kilpin’s services was implied. He moved the adjournment of the debate.

said that when the present officer was appointed as Clerk of the House, he merely moved as a rider to the resolution then before hon. members that the services rendered in the past by Sir Ernest Kilpin in that capacity be suitably acknowledged. The Government, however, opposed this, but he understood at the time that if he subsequently brought forward such a resolution it would have their support, He now regretted to see that the Prime Minister discouraged the resolution, and in view of the opposition which had been raised on the other side of the House, to what was, after all, only a graceful act on the part of the House, he wished now to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

wished to point out that when the motion was first put by the hon. member for Queen’s Town it was not in order, although put by a late Speaker. He (Mr. Sauer) fielded to none in appreciation of the services of Sir Ernest Kilpin, but he wished to see the thing done property, and it was not opposition on the part of the Government when they could not accept the rider originally proposed by the hon. member. He was sorry that the hon. member should have made such an unworthy suggestion as that the Prime Minister had discouraged the motion.

The motion and the amendment were withdrawn.

moved that the following matters be referred to the Select Committee on Internal Arrangements, viz.:(1) The necessary arrangements for the production of a Hansard for the House of Assembly; (2) the salaries of Mr. Speaker, the Chairman of Committees, the, Clerk of the House, and the Sergeant-at-Arms; (3) the appointment and salaries of the remainder of the permanent staffs of the House of Assembly and Joint Parliamentary establishments; and (4) the pensions or gratuities to be paid to those officers of the Parliaments of the late colonies who are not provided for, and who may not be retained either in the Executive or Parliamentary services of the Union.

asked if this was the correct committee to which these matters should be referred. He moved, as an amendment, that the questions be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Rules and Orders.

The amendment was agreed to

moved that the question of the Speaker’s salary be deleted, seeing that in the case of either committee, Mr. Speaker would be in the chair.

said that surely the House knew Mr. Speaker would not sit on a committee to discuss his salary.

thought that the Government should deal with this matter.

The amendment of the hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Dr. Smartt) with regard to Mr. Speaker’s salary, was withdrawn, and the (motion, as amended, agreed to.

“ That Parliament being now in session no further expenditure should be incurred by the Government without the authority of the House.”

seconded.

pointed out that if the motion were carried it would mean an alteration of the South Africa Act of 1909.

said that when the Treasurer (Mr. Hull) was asked the question the other day he sheltered himself behind the financial clause in the Act of Union. He (Mr. Walton) had been a good deal surprised at the action of the Treasurer, because every member of the Convention would remember the circumstances under which this particular clause was inserted. It was placed in the Act for the purpose of dealing with certain circumstances. The main point raised at the time was the possibility of a government—put into power before the election—coming into that House, and finding that it had not the confidence of the majority of the members of that House. The Treasurer decided to take advantage of that clause instead of asking the House to vote supplies in the ordinary way.

Partial appropriation?

‘ The hon. member knows the procedure very well. He admitted that the circumstances were a exceptional, but he thought these exceptional circumstances should have made Ministers doubly careful After the statement made by Mr. Speaker and knowing that in a few days the House would have a further opportunity of discussing the financial position, and the steps taken by the present Government, he did not intend to press the motion on the paper.

The motion was withdrawn.

moved: “That a Select Committee be appointed to which shall be referred all minutes recommending special pensions and all applications for pensions, grants and gratuities, not authorised by the Civil Service Regulations; the committee to have the power to take evidence and call for papers, and to consist of the Minister of Railways, Messrs. Currey, Maasdorp, H. S. Theron, Phillips, Whitaker, Runciman, Robinson, and the mover.

seconded.

said the work of a committee of that kind was becoming more and more unnecessary. It would be better to remedy the regulations regarding the pensions of railway men and teachers, who at present were in some cases—dependent on the committee. The Government should face the question of pensions once and for all, instead of having exceptional arrangements made by a Select Committee. He moved as an amendment that it be an instruction to the committee to consider and report what improvements, if any, are necessary in the various Acts governing grants, pensions, and gratuities.

seconded.

said the question was a highly important one In the Australian colonies the magnitude of the pension list led to the Sweeping away of the pension regulations altogether.

said he held the very strong view that every pension and gratuity to members of the public service should be settled by Act of Parliament—(cheers)—and that every member of the Civil Service should know definitely what his gratuity or pension would be. Therefore he was very much adverse at first to having such a committee. But it had been pointed out that it had been in the practice in the Cape—and one liked sometimes to follow the Cape lines— (laughter and hear, hear)—to appoint a Pensions Committee, and he thought it better for the present at all events to continue on Cape lines. He also reminded the House that a Civil Service Commission had been appointed, and he hoped the Commission would report before long with regard to the reorganisation of the service, and no doubt they would also make recommendations with regard to a superannuation fund being established. He, therefore, thought it would be unwise to accept the amendment, for he did not see how a committee could exercise the functions of Government. He suggested that the amendment be withdrawn.

then withdrew his amendment.

The motion was agreed to.