WEDNESDAY, 16 SEPTEMBER 2009
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                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
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The House met at 15:01.

House Chairperson Mr M B Skosana took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

  PRESENCE OF SA HOMELESS STREET SOCCER TEAM IN HOUSE ACKNOWLEDGED

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Order! Before we proceed, I have been requested to acknowledge the presence of the SA Homeless Street Soccer, SAHSS, team. Let me just give you a brief background before you applaud. The SAHSS took part in the Homeless World Cup in Milan, Italy, from 6 to 13 September 2009. Forty nations took part in the tournament. The SAHSS brought home the City of Milan trophy by winning Malawi in the final with a score of 9-1. You may now applaud. [Applause.]

                      QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

                              ECONOMICS
                              Cluster 4

MINISTERS:

 Particulars regarding occupation of units in parliamentary villages

1. Mr P B Mnguni (Cope) asked the Minister of Public Works:

   (1) Whether all units in all parliamentary villages are used exclusively by (a) Members of Parliament (MPs) and (b) session staff employed by the Public Service; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (2) what steps have been taken to ensure that these units are not inhabited by any other individuals and families who do not fall in the above categories;

   (3) how many nonreturning MPs are still residing in the parliamentary villages;

   (4) whether a policy with transparent criteria of the equitable allocation of houses to MPs has been developed; if not, why not; if so, when will it be tabled;

   (5) whether the seniority of an MP in terms of (a) years of service as a Member of Parliament and/or (b) office held in Parliament or the executive is one of the criteria; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO1140E

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, parliamentary villages provide accommodation for the following categories of inhabitants: Members of Parliament; sessional officials employed by the Public Service; departmental officials per park to perform standby duties; aides and assistants to members with disability; and protectors to members.

We have measures in place to account for the number of people who reside in each village. Once people in the categories above take residence, the identity numbers, names and surnames of all adults, youth and children residing in a particular house or unit are recorded. The parliamentary villages management board has put in place policies and regulations that ensure that people who fall outside the mentioned categories do not reside in parks. These are enforced in collaboration with the national protection service and the SA Police Service.

There are five nonreturning members staying in the villages. These are exceptions to the rule. Each case was reviewed separately, and their stay in smaller units was extended for a limited period. As of this week, the state attorney is dealing with these cases on our behalf.

Whips of the various political parties allocate houses to their members according to their own policies. However, once the parliamentary villages board has been reconstituted, this will be revisited.

The answer to section 5 of the question is the same as the last answer I have given. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr P B MNGUNI: Chairperson, Minister, this question was posed to illustrate to what extent the ANC government has increasingly blurred its role between political parties and the state. Seven nonreturning ANC MPs were granted special permission to stay on until the end of June. Yet, they flaunted all the regulations and unilaterally extended their stay at a cost to taxpayers until August. Only now, as a result of a court ruling, will the department conduct an audit of those who reside in parliamentary villages to ensure that units meant for MPs and parliamentary staff will be utilised for that purpose and not for the ANC, their staff, families and friends. I thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, obviously the hon member’s inside information was incorrect this time. I said that these were exceptional cases. These are cases where a member has produced a medical certificate to say that they were unable to move out of the residence. These are cases that have been outlined in my response.

The issue you are raising is irrelevant, because the policies are in place. It is an agreement between parties to allocate and to decide on the criteria for housing. The department does not get involved in that. So, I’m sorry about your information, Sir. It is incorrect. [Applause.]

Mr S J MASANGO: Chairperson, I would like to know how often the Department of Public Works makes inspections at the parks, because there are so many people staying at these parks who are neither MPs nor officials.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, I think this is a repetition of what I have already responded to. I said that once the inhabitants take occupation of the houses, we then go into a registration process. It might help the hon member if I add a bit to the replies given. We are busy looking at the legislation that governs the parliamentary villages management board. We are going to reconstitute that board and ask from the Speaker’s Office that somebody be delegated to chair that particular board with the Deputy Minister of Public Works so that we have MPs playing a role in the management of the parks. Members of Parliament need to get their act together and make sure that their residence committees are elected. You can’t blame the Minister of Public Works if you are not prepared to look after the parks that you live in. I think they are there for you to reside in. You must make yourself safe and comfortable. We are there to support you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Order! Before I call the hon M C Manana, let me just remind members that they must please press the talk button from their own seats. Do not use other members’ seats, because you are confusing the records.

Mr M C MANANA: Chairperson, hon Minister, as you may know, parliamentary villages have become our second homes as hon Members of Parliament. In light of the many cases reported to be criminal in the parks in recent years, what measures and plans does your department have in place to beef up security and ensure proper and ideal access control for all residents in the parks? Thanks.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, the security in the parks is of serious concern to our department, and I do get approached by several members on this issue. I must just quote from a report that has been given to me. It indicates that we also need the residents in the park to be serious about crime. For instance, there was a charge of malicious damage to state property. The person who witnessed this – I won’t mention the name – identified the suspect, but declined to register a case for further investigation. Now that doesn’t help us. The second one is trespassing. Again the person who reported it does not wish the case to be registered for trespassing. On the matter relating to the disturbance of peace, no further action was taken by the member. We also have a problem where the SA Police Service is called out on numerous occasions. For instance, in the month of August, 190 alarms were activated. When the SA Police Service went to those residences, it was to find that somebody had pressed the alarm button or the panic button by accident. That is a waste of an available resource that could be deployed in other areas to fight crime.

On the issue of assets, this is something that the Auditor-General has raised with us. When the audit report comes to Parliament, members will be able to see what action we are taking. It is of serious concern that our assets are being moved around in the park without any monitoring or tracking. That is something we are addressing. Thanks.

Mr W P DOMAN: Chairperson, hon Minister, normally it is the park manager who calls the first meeting. I would just like to ask you that the particular official of your department should call the first meeting so that we as Members of Parliament can gather.

I would, however, like to ask the hon Minister whether all of these five cases he mentioned are because of medical reasons and whether they will pay a market-related rent for their prolonged stay in the parks?

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, the answer to the latter part of the question is yes. But, hon members, I think it might be important for us to look at these particular cases. We have cases where former Members of Parliament did not return, but left their children in the houses. How do we as a Department of Public Works evict school-going children when there is no adult in that house?

This is a serious issue and therefore the department did give an extension. As I said, the state attorney is now dealing with these cases. I think we should leave it to that process.

Steps taken to implement ISRDP programme and to eradicate poverty in rural areas

1. Mrs D G Nhlengethwa (ANC) asked the Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform:

   (1) Whether his department has taken any steps to implement the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme (ISRDP); if not, why not; if so, what steps;

   (2) whether he has taken any steps to co-operate with other government departments to eradicate poverty in rural areas, particularly traditional communities; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what steps? NO1286E

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Chairperson, the answer to the first question is, yes. The Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme, ISRDP, is currently being integrated into the Comprehensive Rural Development Programme.

Communication regarding this process has been sent out to all nodal mayors, provincial heads of departments in the nodal areas, and technical stakeholders that were involved in its implementation in the nodes. Stakeholders are also being consulted on how to integrate the lessons of the ISRDP into the Comprehensive Rural Development Programme, CRDP.

The answer to the second question is, yes. Strong institutional arrangements are key to the eradication of poverty in rural areas. The premiers of provincial government are currently assisting the Ministry in getting the commitment of all provincial government departments so that we can get the desired results from the integrated implementation of the CRDP.

A council of stakeholders consisting of members of community-based organisations and forums, traditional councils and communities, school governing bodies, government and community policing forums, and ward committees will be established. In fact, it has already been established at Muyexe. The council of stakeholders will, inter alia, enforce compliance with the conditions for state support to the CRDP beneficiaries; ensure compliance to the agreed code of conduct; identify community needs, project management and implementation; and play an oversight and monitoring role. Thank you.

Ms D G NHLENGETHWA: Chairperson, despite the significant progress made over the past 15 years, people living in rural areas continue to face the harshest conditions of poverty, lack of access to land, and basic services. Is the programme also linked to agrarian reform, so that the lives of the farmworkers and farm dwellers can be improved? Are there any support measures for them?

The second part of the question relates to traditional communities: Are traditional leaders taken on board in terms of consultation in this process?

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Chairperson, the answer is yes. This programme is linked to agrarian transformation. In fact, as part of our rationalisation and restructuring of the department, we have brought together all these programmes under the key rural development programme of the department and the land reform programmes. These two key programmes are actually meant to deal with all rural areas, including farm dwellers. In this regard, we want to mention that the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform has a mechanism with a toll-free number to assist, particularly, farm dwellers who tend to be subjected to evictions. This is part of a defence mechanism that the department has put in place for them over the past few years.

We think this is one area that has been lacking publicity. We have taken a decision that we will publicise this information as much as possible in the media, both in print and electronically, in the coming weeks.

In terms of the second question, indeed, as I have just mentioned, we have started working with traditional leaders as part of the programme. In fact, they are central to participating and determining where land should be used, and what kind of use that land should be put to, etc. They are part of the council of stakeholders that we referred to. Thank you.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, through you to the hon Minister, the IFP has a serious concern when it comes to rural development, because Ministers and MECs often bypass local government and traditional leaders when it comes to the implementation of the Integrated Sustainable Development Programmes, which often results in little or no progress at all. Our worry is that this happens especially when the traditional councils and local government do not belong to the ruling party. My question is whether the Minister is aware of these practices; if he is, what steps the Minister planning to take? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Chairperson, unfortunately I am not aware of that scenario. However, if I may just say to the hon member that in cases where we have started with the work, I actually do not know who belongs to what party, because I don’t participate in the selection. What we do is to go from door to door in the communities, without skipping any houses. We don’t know whether there are members of the ANC, PAC or IFP in those houses. What we do know is that each household must be involved.

Traditional leaders, as I said, are actually quite involved. They participate in all the structures. When you get to KwaZulu-Natal, the hon members will see that and experience it as well. Thank you.

Mr L S NGONYAMA: Chairperson, we have to accept, hon Minister, that we are not in a position to change the situation entirely in rural areas, despite the passion that you demonstrate in your work all of the time. However, if we don’t take the issue of the roll-out of microlending to the rural areas to actually make them self-sufficient and also enhance agro-industry in the rural areas, we will not overcome this imbalance between the urban and the rural areas. Are there any plans for rolling out microlending in the rural areas?

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Chairperson, that is perfectly correct. The hon members should have followed the policy speech, because in that speech we presented three phases of development. In the first phase we are really meeting basic human needs, and the second phase is about enterprise development. And we mentioned, specifically, that the second phase is a very important phase in terms of training and developing people, particularly in financial management.

In the third phase we look at agro-industries, microlending or microfinancing, and we think that this is an area we want to emphasise. It has become very important in terms of our ongoing work regarding microlending and agrovillage industries, to determine which rural areas we find to be the most critical.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Chairperson, hon Minister, did the recent policy platform on rural development held in Durban produce any new proposals to foster economic development in rural areas where previous efforts have failed, despite public and private investments; if so, what are the relevant details; and if not, what plans do you have to stimulate fresh thinking in this area?

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Chairperson, I apologise, I did not get the first part of the question – please repeat that first part.

Mrs C DUDLEY: It was about the recent policy platform in Durban, a platform on rural development?

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: The one that took place on Sunday?

Mrs C DUDLEY: Yes.

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Oh! Thank you, hon Chair. We have discussed this morning – my colleague, the hon Minister for Economic Development, and I – that that is what we are going to do. We are going to discus the outcome of that platform between ourselves and with top officials to look at the areas that will help both of us, in economic development and in rural development. Yes, we are going to do that.

Ms A STEYN: Chairperson, hon Minister, why is the department identifying new pilot sites if the district municipality has already put a lot of time and money in the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme, ISRDP? Will this department consider using the already identified poverty nodes in the rural development programme? I know that you have answered it in your first reply. These pockets were identified specifically because they are rural and very poor areas. I am just wondering whether it is not because it was launched in the Mbeki era that we are now doing our own new pilot sites. The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Chairperson, the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme, ISRDP, nodal area, for example, in the Free State has been identified as the Maluti-a-Phofung Local Municipality. We are going to the other nodal areas and other sites that we have identified because of their circumstances. For example, Riemvasmaak, where we are working now, is an area in the Northern Cape that received a huge stretch of land from government, but there was no support. So, we thought we should prioritise areas like those.

I think that in Mpumalanga the Mkhondo Municipality could also be – if I am not mistaken - one of the areas that were part of the nodal areas. So, we are not excluding them. In fact, we would like to start with them where possible. We will discuss and negotiate with premiers, and if they prefer a place different from that, we would go to it. I think in KwaZulu-Natal as well, Msinga … Yintoni kanene igama lalaa ndawo? [By the way what is the name of that area?] [Interjections.]

Prince M G BUTHELEZI: EMsinga. [Msinga.]

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Yes, Nkosi Shenge, eMsinga … that’s a nodal area in KwaZulu-Natal. Thank you.

Additional funding and other measures to expedite land reform process 77.   Mr N Singh (IFP) asked the Minister of Rural Development and Land
  Reform:

 (1)    Whether, in light of the Chief Land Claims Commissioner’s
       statement that 97 percent of the land acquisition budget had
       been spent three months into the year, additional funds will be
       sourced to ensure that the land reform process is not delayed
       further; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

 (2)    whether this lack of funds will necessitate an extension to the
       deadline for the completion of the land reform process; if not,
       why not; if so, what are the relevant details;


 (3)    whether any additional measures will be introduced to expedite
       the land reform process and correct the inefficiencies that
       exist with its administration; if not, why not; if so, what are
       the relevant details?  NO1092E

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Chairperson, the answer to this question, is that, as stated in the budget and policy speech, this model does not work. The speech was very clear. Alternative models to the willing-buyer, willing-seller principle are currently being investigated. The government is prepared to engage with landowners and other interested stakeholders to develop cost-effective models to expedite land reform delivery. Thank you.

Mr N SINGH: Thank you, hon Minister for that very short answer. I wish the previous Minister of Agriculture and Land Affairs were here to hear from you, Sir, that the model that the government used did not work, because time and time again we did indicate to the hon Minister in debates that the model did not work, but we were talking to a wall. Maybe sometimes a wall responds to the things that we say. But, hon Minister, it is a matter of concern that claims were gazetted in 1998, and in 11 years, as you say, we still haven’t sorted out these claims.

We as the IFP support land reform because it is an important imperative that the government needs to pursue in order to redress the wrongs of the past. What I would like to know from the hon Minister is whether the hon Minister is aware that the Office of the Land Claims Commission has entered into contractual agreements with owners of land to buy their land, but they don’t have the money to pay for that land? When will moneys be paid and how, so that the beneficiaries can take occupation of the land which they so richly deserve? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chair, I am not aware of whether that specific scenario exists, but I will follow up on it. What I do know is that, on the desk right now, we have situations where agreements have been signed, but due to a lack of money, those agreements have not been carried through. We do know that. As a result, we have negotiated with Treasury – I think the commissioner has been saying all along that we do not have money – and, really, that is a very important aspect.

He made a broad statement which has been interpreted as “if we do not have money, we will not proceed”. That is not correct. We can only speak for the current time. As you will remember, this is a new department and we will have to find money, given the fact that the commissioner has spent all the money that was available in the first quarter. We cannot then say those who have signed should not be serviced. We are looking for about R400 million to service those claims that are on the desk that have been signed already. And that’s the scenario that the hon member is talking about. Thank you.

Mr M M SWATHE: Chairperson, Minister, having replied very well, does the department have a system in place whereby it understands the exact figures in terms of how many farms it had signed contracts with, and how to pay the outstanding amounts? How long before these contracts are going to be settled? We have a contract in our possession from a farmer who has been waiting for payment from the department for five years already. When is he going to get his money? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chair, the hon member has asked that question in written form and I’ve answered it. And now the hon member is asking that question again. I’ve got an answer here, but I wasn’t ready for that particular question, because he asked it and I answered it. If I’m given a chance, I could try to look for that information here. But the hon members have got it. Thank you.

Nkosi Z M D MANDELA: Chairperson, in light of the Comprehensive Rural Development Programme pilot projects launched in Giyani and Riemvasmaak, what is the status of the land claims, especially in the communities that launched the claims on the Kruger National Park?

Secondly, the Chief Land Claims Commissioner informed the Portfolio Committee on Rural Development and Land Reform that for the Kruger National Park alone, the department will need no less that R15 billion per year to meet the 2014 land delivery target. With the current global economic downturn, will all the land claims be settled by 2014, as per the department’s strategic plan? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chair, Cabinet took a decision in 2008 that the land in the Kruger National Park will not be restored to the communities who launched land claims on it, and that alternative redress would be sought in the form of financial compensation. It has come to light that the communities do not agree to financial compensation and have called for the restoration of the land. The Ministry will submit this matter to Cabinet for a discussion and a way forward. It is clear that we do not have sufficient resources to meet our targets – that is in terms of the second question. This is further compounded by the current economic crisis.

However, hon Chair, further interactions with National Treasury over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period, regarding additional funding for land reform will continue. The commission remains committed to its mandate of ensuring redress for those who lost their land through past racial practices and legislation, and will further ensure regular communication with claimants as to the status of their claims. Thank you.

Mr N J J VAN R KOORNHOF: Mr Chairperson, in fact, what I wanted to ask was about the Kruger National Park. Can I ask the Minister – and thank you for that reply to the previous question – whether, when he submits this whole issue to the Cabinet, he will take into consideration the environmental part of the Kruger National Park and its tourism potential, and, further, that he will not reopen this matter just because there are one or two people who are eyeing concessions that will not be in the interest of the park?

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chair, a categorical “no” to that last question. With regard to the first two questions about the environment and tourism, we should make it clear that we will further consult with the people there on this matter, and it involves a variety of communities, ranging from Limpopo to Mpumalanga as the hon member knows.

We want to assure them that government will not do anything without having consulted them to the full. Now that we understand that they are not happy, we have to go back to them and discuss it, and then make sure that Cabinet is well aware of the implications of its decisions.

Secondly, it is very important to note that those communities are not saying they want to walk into that Kruger National Park and grab it. They are saying there is a question that must be answered by government – this was our land. That’s what people are saying, “This was our land and we want that to be recognised by the government and acknowledged.” The form of that recognition and acknowledgement is what must be debated with the people. In our view and our understanding of what people are saying, there is no threat whatsoever to the environment and tourism in terms of the Kruger National Park. Thank you.

Particulars regarding projects to assist persons who are laid off at work

1. Ms F E Khumalo (ANC) asked the Minister of Labour:

   (1) Whether there are any projects by his department to assist persons who are laid off at work; if not, why not; if so, what projects;

   2) whether these projects provide long-term solutions; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO1444E

UMPHATHISWA WEZABASEBENZI: Mhlalingaphambili, ezona njongo zethu ziphambili kukuba imeko yezoqoqosho iphucuke, luphinde uqoqosho lume kakuhle kwakhona ukuze luvule amathuba omsebenzi. Ukuze ke uqoqosho luphumelele koku, kufuneka sicinge ngokuqeqesha nokuphuhlisa izakhono zabantu, ingakumbi abo bathe baphulukana nezithuba zomsebenzi. Yeyona njongo iphambili ke le; akunyanzelwanga mntu.

Zezo nkampani ezithi zibe sengxakini nasengxingongweni kuphela emazize ngaphambili, zifike zithi thaca ingxaki yazo, ukuze ke thina sikwazi ukuncedana nazo. Yiyo ke loo nto senze ukuba kubekho imali eyayisele ithiwe pahaha ngokaPatel, engamawaka azizigidi ezi-4,4 [R4,4 billion], esithe sayikhupha kule Ngxowa-mali yethu yeInshorensi yaBangaphangeliyo kwakunye neNgxowa-mali yeZakhono yeSizwe.

Ukuba uyaqaphela ke, zonke ezo mali ziphuma kweli sebe lethu. Into esingekayiboni ligalelo labanye abantu kulo mcimbi. Okwangoku, sisebenzisana neKomiti yoXolelwaniso noLamlo, iCCMA, eyiyo eza kuthi ikhwebe ezo nkampani zisengxakini, ukwenzela ukuba saziswe ukuba inkampani ethile, ngenxa yeemeko zoqoqosho, ifuna ukuncediswa. Oku sikwenza ngenxa yokuba sifuna ukuba abasebenzi bangaveli nje badendwe ngokungathi kukhululwa izihlangu neekawusi. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Chairperson, our main objective is for the economy to recover and be strong so as to create job opportunities. If we want to ensure the success of our economy, we must think of skills development and the training of people, especially for those who have lost their jobs. That is the main objective, and no one is being forced to do it.

It is only those companies that are in trouble and in a deep crisis that must come forward and present their situation to us, so that we are able to help them. That is why we made available a sum of R4,4 billion from the Unemployment Insurance Fund and the National Skills Fund, which hon Patel has already announced.

You will notice that all these funds are from our department. We have not yet seen other people’s contributions to this issue. For now, we are working with the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, the CCMA, which is the one that will call those companies that are in crisis so that we are informed that a certain company needs to lay off workers temporarily because of the economic meltdown. We are doing this to ensure that workers are not being retrenched as easily as taking off one’s shoes and socks. [Applause.]]

Ms F E KHUMALO: Chairperson, hon Minister, is there any training for those who are retrenched; if so, to what extent; if not, what are the plans of the department in this regard? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Chairperson, what I like about the way we function in the Department of Labour is that the responsibility does not lie with the department only. May I make an example? We have key strategic projects that are decided on by provincial governments, whom we have given money; the Eastern Cape has been given R99 million.

Kodwa loo mali bamelwe kukuba babe bayisebenzisile engekafiki uDisemba walo nyaka ka-2009. [The money is supposed to have been spent before December 2009.]

The Free State was allocated R96 million; Gauteng R99 million; and KwaZulu- Natal R97 million.

I do want to say in this House, that …

… ndiyincoma kakhulu iKwaZulu-Natala, ngoba ela phondo lisebenzise ngaphezu kwama-90 ekhulwini emali ayabelweyo. [Kwaqhwatywa.]

ILimpopo siyabele izigidi ezingama-95 zeerandi [R95 million]; iMpumalanga yabelwe izigidi ezingama-99 zeerandi [R99 million]; uMntla Koloni wona wabelwe izigidi ezingama-99 zeerandi [R99 million]; uMntla Ntshona wabelwe izigidi ezingama-98 zeerandi [R98 million]; iNtshona Koloni yabelwe izigidi ezingama-99 zeerandi [R99 million].

Asibuzanga ke okokuba abantu bakuwaphi na amaqela ezopolitiko. EMpuma Koloni, iphondo endizalelwe kulo, bathe bona baza kuba namaphulo ofundelo- msebenzi. Bathi barhwebeshe abaqeqeshwa abali-1 963. Bakwathe baza kujongana noqeqeshelo-msebenzi kwanokusebenza kwabaqeqeshwa njengabalingwa emsebenzini. Asithi xa kuthethwa ngoqeqeshelo-msebenzi makungaqatshelwa abantu abathe nabo badendwa emisebenzini. Asithanga lo makangavunyelwa; lo makavunyelwe. Wonke umntu onqwenela ukufumana uqeqesho, nonqwenela ukuba akwazi ukuphakama azenzele ngokwakhe, umele ukuba alufumane olo ncedo.

Ukuba ithuba belikho, mhlalingaphambili, bendiya kuyichazela iNdlu le ukuba iMpuma Koloni isebenzise ama-66 ekhulwini emali eyabelweyo. IFreyistata isebenzise ama-70 ekhulwini emali eyabelweyo – ndiyakhawulezisa ke ngoku, mhlalingaphambili. IGauteng isebenzise ama-42 ekhulwini emali eyabelweyo. Yaza iKwaZulu-Natala yasebenzisa ama-94,8 ekhulwini emali eyabelweyo. Yiyo ke le nto ndisithi ndibancoma kakhulu phaya KwaZulu-Natala. ILimpopo isebenzise ama-33 ekhulwini emali eyabelweyo, phondo elo asuka kulo uWillie Madisha. IMpumalanga isebenzise … (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[… I commend KwaZulu-Natal because they have spent more than 90% of the money allocated to the province. [Applause.]

We have allocated R95 million to Limpopo; R99 million to Mpumalanga; North West has been allocated R98 million; and Western Cape R99 million. We didn’t ask people about their political affiliation.

In the Eastern Cape where I was born, they said they will have learnership campaigns. They said they have attracted 1 963 learners. They also said that they will focus on training and internship programmes. We are not saying that people who were retrenched must not be considered when we are talking about internships. We did not say that this one should be accepted and that one should not. Everybody who wishes to receive training and those who wish to embark on self-sustainable development initiatives must get assistance.

If there was enough time Chairperson, I would tell the House that the Eastern Cape has spent 66 per cent of the money allocated to it. Free State has spent 70 per cent of the money allocated to it - I am speed reading now Chairperson. Gauteng has spent 42 per cent of the money allocated to it and KwaZulu-Natal spent 94,8 per cent of the money allocated. That is why I am saying I applaud KwaZulu-Natal. Limpopo has spent 33 per cent of the money allocated to it, the province Willie Madisha is coming from. Mpumalanga has spent …]

… only R12 million of the R99 million allocated to it.

UMntla Koloni usebenzise ama-32 ekhulwini; uMntla Ntshona usebenzise ama-44 ekhulwini.

USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M B Skosana): Uphelelwe lixesha, Mphathiswa.

UMPHATHISWA WEZABASEBENZI: Ndiyavuya ke xa lithe laphela ndingekalibizi elakho iphondo. [Kwahlekwa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The Northern Cape has spent 32 per cent of the money allocated to it, and the North West spent 44 per cent.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon Minister, your time has expired.

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: I am glad the time expired before mentioning your province. [Laughter.]]

Mr A LOUW: Chairperson, is the Minister aware that none of the companies have applied for the temporary layoff programme, and that more than 300 000 people have been retrenched in quarters one and two, according to Statistics SA?

What is being done about this disastrous state of affairs?

UMPHATHISWA WEZABASEBENZI: Mhlalingaphambili, umntu owayelixhwele phaya ekhaya ngumakhulu, owasweleka kudala. Nguye ke owayenakho ukuphosa amathambo azi ukuba yeyiphi na inkampani efake isicelo, iyeyiphi engasifakanga.

Okwangoku, silindele ukuba inkampani esengxakini ifake isicelo ngokusesikweni. Ukuba ke iyinyani laa nto ibithethwa ngumhlekazi lowa, yokuba iinkampani azifakanga zicelo, makube ke besixelelwa into engekhoyo xa bekusithiwa iinkampani zisengxakini, yiyo loo nto zidenda abasebenzi. Ndingavuya ke ukuba unokusinika loo ngcombolo, yokuba zeziphi na ezi nkampani athetha ngazo ukwenzela ukuba sikhangele ukuba ayizizo na ezi zithi zidende abasebenzi zibe zingenangxaki. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Chairperson, the only person who was a sangoma at home was my grandmother who passed away a long time ago. She was the one who would throw the bones and know which company has made an application and which one has not. As of now, we are waiting for a company in crisis to make an application formally. If it is true what the hon member said about companies not making applications, it means we have been deceived when we were told that the reason these companies are retrenching people is because they are in deep crisis.

I will be very honoured if you can give us information of the companies that you are talking about in order to establish if they are not the ones that are retrenching people whereas they are not in crisis. [Applause.]]

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, hon Minister, I’ve been covered to a large degree by your responses already. Possibly, you could just indicate to me the degree to which the funds you have allocated have already been used for training purposes, notwithstanding the fact that a number of companies have not yet applied for those funds. I’m sure that there are already training schemes on the go, through the usage of those funds that have been allocated as you indicated. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Chairperson, fortunately again, the discussion about these training layoffs was not initiated by the Department of Labour or by government alone. We took this decision together with the employers’ organisations and the trade union federations.

We have already provided the financial resources to do this work. Therefore, it is important for us to monitor this. I know, hon member, that at the end of the day, you will be asking: Out of the R2,4 billion, how much money has been spent? And I will have to come and account for it, because that money is not manna.

Mr W M MADISHA: Hon Minister, are these projects linked to the skills development programme of the economic meltdown rescue package? If so, what sectors are being targeted?

Secondly, what plans do you have to accommodate the anticipated loss of 70 000 jobs in the construction industry after the completion of the soccer stadia?

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Mhlalingaphambili, ndiyawuthanda laa mbuzo ngoba ela lungu likulaa Komiti yeMicimbi yeSebe lezaBasebenzi, … [Chairperson, I like that question because that member is in the Portfolio Committee on Labour, … ]

… which has been fully briefed on this. We are waiting for him to tell us …

Mr W M MADISHA: Not true!

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: That sounds like in America. But, I will pray for you. You know that some of the sectors that are affected are mining and manufacturing. In particular, the workers within the National Union of Metalworkers, Numsa, are the ones who made the first approach in relation to the training for layoffs.

I can also inform the hon members here, that there are many trade unions that have taken decisions about short time in order to make sure that the company doesn’t go bust. We really need to commend those trade unions that participated in taking those decisions. What we are now doing is merely to say that for the two days or one day that the workers have no work to do, they must be trained.

We are in dark times now, but I know that the sun will shine again. And when it does, you must not run around and start looking for people to train, saying that there are no skills in the country. Start training the workers now. This is the opportunity for employers to train their workers. That’s exactly what we are encouraging our employers to do.

The same applies to the construction industry, my brother. In terms of the agreement that they reached during collective bargaining, they have formed task teams to discuss relevant programmes and issues such as what’s going to happen to some of those workers.

Of course, you know, people in the construction industry are not employed on a permanent basis. When the building has been finished, the worker goes and looks for a job elsewhere. You know that; you have been leading one of the best trade unions in the country. I don’t know why you left it. [Time expired.]

 Particulars regarding awarding of a contract to render services for
                      presidential inauguration

1. Mr M W Rabotapi (DA) asked the Minister of Public Works:

   (1) Whether a certain company (name furnished) was awarded a contract to render services for the presidential inauguration on 9 May 2009; if so,

   (2) whether this contract was awarded on the basis of a public tender process; if not, why not; if so, (a) how many tenders were received, (b) from whom, (c) what amounts were tendered in each case, (d) in which edition of the Government Tender Bulletin was the (i) tender advertised and (ii) successful tender announced and (e) what criteria were used to assess the capabilities of the said company with regard to (i) service delivery, (ii) price and (iii) the sustainability of the services to be supplied;

   (3) whether his department has paid the said company in full; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO1398E The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Hon Chairperson, we have agreed with the hon member that we will table the question and he will get the response in the form of a hard copy, because it is six pages long and the annexure is 10 pages, which is too much to handle as an oral question.

With your permission, Chairperson, the question is therefore responded to.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it not possible for the Minister, notwithstanding the agreement, to give a précis or summary of that response to the House? It is not an answer to that individual member, but an answer to the House that is required.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Hon House Chairperson, as I said, the response is six pages long. If you allow me twenty minutes then I will do the response.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): No. I think members know that the convention is if it is that long, it should be tabled. If the Minister is unable to make a summary at this moment, then the answer will be tabled.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, the problem with that is it does not allow for a follow-up question, and the whole point of oral questions is to allow that interaction with members of the Cabinet.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon Davidson, it is a convention that the House has agreed to follow. We cannot jump and change this agreement.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: It is a dangerous precedent that you are setting. It allows members of the Cabinet to get around tricky questions by submitting an answer the way they have, because then we are not allowed to ask follow-up questions. I ask you to consider that and come back with a response.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon Davidson, this will be considered also by the Chief Whips’ Forum to see what it can do about matters like these. I understand your frustration.

Ms J D KILIAN: Hon Chairperson, would you allow a follow-up statement in this regard, which is asking for a response by the Minister?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): No. I will not allow that. I’ll stick to the convention that the answer be tabled because of its length. Is there any other follow-up question? [Interjections.]

Effect of fiscal stimulus package, infrastructure programme and other
measures in cushioning the economy and preventing further job losses

1. Mr S N Swart (ACDP) asked the Minister of Economic Development:

   (1) Whether the Government’s fiscal stimulus package and the R787 billion infrastructure programme has succeeded in cushioning the economy against the worst effects of the global economic meltdown; if not, why not; if so, how did he reach this conclusion;

   (2) whether any other factors contributed to the recession and the loss of 500 000 jobs this year; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (3) whether the additional package of measures announced recently flowing from the framework agreement between business, labour and Government in February will prevent further job losses; if not, why not; if so, how? NO1433E

The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, hon member, it is the view of the government that the stimulus package is cushioning the economy against the worst effects of the global economic crisis. The cushioning has been achieved in a number of ways. In the first instance, government took the deliberate stance that we would not cut spending levels despite the decrease in revenues and a likely increase in the budget deficit.

Public sector expenditure and investment levels have been maintained in the face of the serious contraction in private sector investment. By pumping liquidity into the economy in recessionary conditions, government is using what economists refer to as countercyclical measures aimed at maintaining economic activity in the face of international and domestic demand contraction.

The R787 billion Infrastructure Investment Programme is illustrative of the significant increase in capital spending by the broader public sector. This investment programme has two broad effects: Firstly, it has directly created thousands of jobs during the construction period, assuring our businesses in several supplies sectors of the economy. A cursory glance at either the employment data or the gross domestic product, GDP, data shows that construction and civil engineering have been leading performers in the economy. If it was not for these projects, the economy would have contracted faster and more jobs would have been lost.

Secondly, these investments raise the future growth in South Africa through lifting the infrastructure bottlenecks in electricity generation, roads, ports, rail, water and other social sectors. These investments provide a platform for private sector investment that is reliant on reliable, affordable and efficient public infrastructure.

Now, we recognise that government spending can only partially cushion the economy against a decline in demand in its exports. For example, if the global demand for motor vehicles were to fall, as it has now, then, we would export less platinum. While fiscal spending in itself cannot create jobs in other sectors, it is not likely to be able to offset job losses in the platinum mining sector. For this reason government has decided to defer the introduction of the mining royalty tax by a year to help companies in the sector to cope with lower demand. So, we’ve tried to give a few illustrations of different aspects of – if you like - the fiscal stimulus.

Regarding the second part of the question, clearly, the recession is the critical factor that has led to job losses, as cited by the hon member. The recession, of course, is the expression of the contraction of the economic activity which resulted in job losses. The collapse in global demand was the trigger which has resulted in global commodity prices and the falling of our exports causing retrenchments, particularly in mining and manufacturing. And that, of course, has a knock- on effect in the domestic economy. Nevertheless, some structural features of our economy clearly make us more vulnerable to this spirit of the economic turmoil and government is now working on policy initiatives to address this.

Regarding the third part of the question yes, we believe that the measures we have announced will minimise the rate of job losses. For example, the training layoff scheme that my colleague, the hon Minister of Labour, referred to earlier, will have three positive effects on jobs. Firstly, it is an alternative to retrenchment. So, instead of the company laying off a worker, they can be enrolled on the training layoff. Secondly, it’s an opportunity … [Time expired.]

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, thank you hon Minister for your lengthy response.

We, as the ACDP, share the view that the stimulus package, particularly, the infrastructure programme, has undoubtedly provided the cushion for our economy enabling the construction sector to sustain double digit growth rates over the last three recessionary quarters, and creating jobs, as you have pointed out.

However, the main engines of our economy - as the Minister of Labour has mentioned - are mining and manufacturing, and that is where we have severe job losses. Hon Minister, whilst we appreciate that hindsight is perfect vision, would the infrastructure plan not have provided more of a boost to domestic manufacturing if it wasn’t so import intensive?

Secondly, is it not the central reason why South Africa’s fiscal stimulus, whilst very important, had a limited impact, and not the fact that private sector investment – which accounts for 76 per cent of net fixed investment, as well as domestic consumption and bank lending – slowed to a crawl?

Lastly, what further progress has been made regarding the implementation of the Framework Agreement which you announced on 20 August 2009 in addition to what the Minister of Labour has pointed out? We will appreciate a short briefing on that, and we realise that time is very limited. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, in respect of the first question; yes, Sir, clearly, if we had the industrial policy initiatives in place some years ago that prepared for a dynamic forward-looking manufacturing sector more of what is required for the infrastructure development and infrastructure investment could have been procured locally. So, we hope part of the R787 billion that the government is investing in the economy will create domestic demand and industrial policy. Minister Rob Davis is working on a programme to ensure that – and there is a question that I will later give more details on – our industrial policy initiatives enable the economy to provide more goods that could go into our infrastructure programme. But I will mention that the efficacy of the R787 billion is going to be dependent on the extent to which we are able to concentrate resources in the local economy and reduce the level of what economists call “leakage”.

With regard to the second question of private sector investment, we are very concerned with the collapse of the private sector investment. One of the effects – as I indicated in my reply – of government maintaining very high levels of public investment, relates to crowding in private sector investment. They are often partners in some of the programmes that we are involved with, and, at times, in some of the economic activities that the private sector engages in. These require adequate infrastructure and the modernisation of our rail and other networks for which the R787 billion has been earmarked. I thank you.

Dr P J RABIE: Chairperson, and hon Minister, the stimulus package replaces private sector economic activity that has currently slowed down considerably. The stimulus package cannot last forever. You have mentioned in your reply that some concessions were given to the platinum sector. My question to you, Minister, is what specific steps has government taken to ensure that private sector activity will resume once the stimulus package ends? I think that is very important, because we need continuity, Mr Minister. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, in response to the hon member’s question, we agree that the stimulus package cannot last forever. In fact, there was a very interesting debate in the G20 Minister of Finance’s meeting that Minister Gordon reported on recently, precisely on this issue.

Firstly, part of government’s response is to ensure that we are able to save our industrial capacity. If we lose most or much of our manufacturing sector as a result of the current contraction, then when conditions on the demand side improve – when consumers buy more; when the exports recover – we would not have the capacity to employ people in those areas. That’s part of what we want to do; to rescue companies as a temporary measure and enable them to resume their normal roles when the economy recovers.

Secondly, we are seeking to facilitate private sector investment, particularly in the real economy; we are talking to the finance sector to maintain the flow of credit to the real economy. Companies need working capital, and without its sustenance, many companies that have markets – where there is a demand for their goods and services – would otherwise close down. So, those are two policy initiatives by government to ensure that we deal with that.

The third aspect is, of course, skills enhancement. The long-term requirements of growth include a skilled workforce, and we are taking the challenge of a slowdown in the economy and turning it into an opportunity to garner skills and train workers. Thank you.

Mr L W GREYLING: Chairperson, some of the issues have already been covered. The ID certainly agrees with the economic stimulus package, but, as you said, it cannot continue forever, and we can’t pull off dealing with some of the structural constraints of our economy.

I think one of the things that this global crisis has exposed is, in fact, the shallowness of our economy. What we have seen is the erosion of our industrial capacity over the last 15 years. When we go forward, we have to put emphasis on how we not only save our industrial capacity but also build it over the long term and generate local resilience in the process. Has the Minister considered the long-term plan on how we go about building up that local industrial capacity again? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Yes, government has commenced work on an initiative to develop South Africa’s growth path in a way that is more employment intensive. Hon members would have seen in the release of the government’s Medium-Term Strategic Framework a new set of challenges and actions that government is committed to. In this work, we seem to, firstly, identify ways in the economy in which more people can be employed. For example, how do we increase the labour intensity in the design of those programmes?

Secondly, how do we ensure that the capital allocated flows to the most labour intensive part of the economy? For example, do we put incentives up that stimulate investment in capital intensive programmes that generate low employment economic activities, or we do the opposite?

Now, this is complex work. If there were easy answers, then all countries across the world would implement them immediately. So, I hope we will be able to report after the completion of this work. It’s officially in the programme of action, and was publicly announced by the government.

Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, and hon Minister, thanks for your responses. As the IFP we welcome the infrastructure programme. But what we need to know the hon Minister will motivate that more money be spent on basic infrastructure in our country, especially when it comes to the rehabilitation of water reticulation systems. Eskom will have a problem that we know is a historical problem, but people need basic delivery. Therefore, we need to ensure that the basic infrastructure is rehabilitated and that more money goes into it.

My next question is related to subsection 3, and here, in particular, I refer to the textile industry with cheap imports of goods. Does this framework agreement protect the workers who are involved in the textile industry? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Regarding the first question of basic infrastructure, yes, we agree that it is important, but I would also like to highlight the importance of economic infrastructure. We have to lay the foundation for long-term growth as much as we deal with the immediate and urgent challenges of social delivery. So, the investment that government is making in energy and transport infrastructure is absolutely vital for balanced economic development, and for addressing the challenges of poverty.

In relation to the question of trade policy and distress sectors, the framework agreement sets out a policy direction. It is up to companies and trade unions to use the provisions of the law to apply for the necessary relief. There have been applications for relief which have gone to the International Trade Administration Commission. It has applied itself to the matter and made recommendations to the Minister of Trade and Industry who decides on these matters. It’s in the public domain that, in fact, parties in the clothing and textile sector, including employers and trade unions, have made applications, and these matters are receiving the necessary attention.

  Minister’s intentions regarding migration of PBMR into Eskom, and  facilitation of nuclear partnership and nuclear energy programme for Eskom

1. Ms M P Mentor (ANC) asked the Minister of Public Enterprises:

   (1) Whether she intends migrating the pebble bed modular reactor (PBMR) into Eskom as the main nuclear energy generator; if not, why not; if so,

   (2) whether her department will consider facilitating a nuclear partnership and a nuclear energy programme for Eskom within the country and abroad; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO1448E

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor, PBMR, business model is in the process of being revised in light of the current global economic conditions and also because of the pressures placed on the fiscus. It is expected that this will be finalised during the course of this year.

There is consensus though that the highly specialised and sought after human resources and intellectual property that have been developed within the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor, PBMR, are of significant value to the country and it must be retained. This is especially important in light of the country’s intended future pressurised water reactor nuclear procurement and the build programme. The capacity developed in terms of human resources in the PBMR can undoubtedly be leveraged to fast-track and reduce the risk of nuclear build and localisation.

In response to the second question, as directed by Cabinet at the end of 2008, a government task team is working on the framework for the procurement of a fleet of nuclear reactors through strategic partnership and the associated localisation of the advanced manufacturing of the components as well as the implications in terms of government’s policy. This work is well underway, and we should be able to provide some clarity on the outcome of the work by the end of the year, as promised, and map the way forward.

Ms M P MENTOR: Chairperson, I will make two follow-ups, because there are two questions. With regard to the first question, will the Minister take steps to ensure that she prevents the possible skills flight or brain drain on the part of the expertise at the Pebble Bed Module Reactor that might occur because of uncertainty?

With regard to the second question, in line with the industrial policy framework within which manufacturing is a key focal point for economic development, will the Minister ensure that all state-owned enterprises interact with the Department of Trade and Industry and get ready for the manufacturing of all key components that would become necessary for the nuclear project in order to continue to stimulate the economy and avoid importing such components? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, thank you for the question. One of the benefits of the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor, PBMR, has been that we, as government, were able to leverage the nuclear skills and capabilities that were in the country after apartheid. These people have been instrumental in building up the PBMR model, and have also been instrumental in building a new generation of nuclear engineers in the country.

For those who are interested, if you go to North West University, there is a training facility that was specifically designed and set up by these nuclear engineers of the past for nuclear engineers in the country. Every country in the world is going to have to face the possibility of going nuclear because of the clean energy requirements. We are very fortunate in this country that we have been able to shore up a considerable nuclear skills capability in this country, and I say to my colleague, most definitely, these people’ skills and abilities will be retained in this country. We need them.

In terms of nuclear build, Eskom embarked on a nuclear procurement process the last 18 months or so. We did not then go ahead to procure, but in the process an enormous amount was learnt about the procurement of nuclear capability. In addition to that, there are the localisation components, and we will still be going further with regard to that. One of the issues that we do need to address is that, if you are going to build up any major advanced manufacturing capability, you have to make sure that there is sufficient procurement within a country to warrant the kind of investment in significantly advanced manufacturing capability. That is why the possibility of a fleet of nuclear reactors is more beneficial than just one simple nuclear reactor, because it gives us the ground basis for going forward.

Obviously, that nuclear engineering capability is then used to run the nuclear generators to go forward. May I also add that the Nuclear Energy Corporation of South Africa, Necsa, itself, is now the world’s only producer and exporter of medical isotopes in the country, and we were able to do this because of our nuclear engineering capabilities. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms E M COLEMAN: Chairperson, my question is related to the previous question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Thank you.

Mr P D DEXTER: Chairperson, I must say that, listening to the Minister, the process of procuring and then stopping the procurement of a nuclear reactor was a way to learn how to procure, and that was a very expensive way to go about it. Nonetheless, I have two questions to the Minister. The first one is, whether government actually has an intention to invest in conventional nuclear energy; and if so, when will we see the results of this? The delays in Eskom’s build programme clearly indicate that if government does intend doing this, there is no fixed timeframe, and I think without that it really is of no use to the economy.

Secondly, when will a Pebble Bed Modular Reactor be built, if ever; and if so, when?

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: As I indicated in the second part to my question, there is a government task team whose task is specifically to work on the framework for the procurement of a fleet of nuclear reactors. So we are in the process of doing that procurement on the pebble bed, which are smaller nuclear reactors that are much more flexible. It’s a very different thing to the high-powered third-generation nuclear power reactors that we’ve been looking at. Yes, government is committed to that. We have to, in terms of our base load, invest in nuclear energy. So we will be going forward.

In addition to that, government has to look at its energy mix. It is not only nuclear; it is sustainable energy as well. We are building Kusile and Medupi Power Stations, but we all know that we cannot just be coal-reliant. We have to look at a complete range of energy.

Whether the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor, PBMR, will ever be built, the Chinese are engaged in the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor industry. They are going full-steam ahead and they will use it to supplement it as most people would. For us, we are facing major fiscal constraints at the moment. That does not mean that we will shut down the PBMR at all, but it does mean that we cannot go ahead at the pace that we would have wanted to on the matter.

We have been submitting and are engaged with the Americans’ programme of new generation nuclear power, and have been engaged with some of the testing of the facilities for the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor. You would have seen that we are also engaged with the Russians. They are going to test some of the things that we have been doing.

We, as South Africa, are still on the cutting edge of that nuclear technology, but the pebble bed is not going to be the primary base of our nuclear buy. Our primary base pebble bed is very good for heat process work, not just for the generation of electricity. Ours would be looking at second to third-generation nuclear generation. Thank you.

Dr S M VAN DYK: Chairperson, Minister, I disagree with you. This experiment of the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor, PBMR, nuclear was rejected by Germany who initiated this project. PBMR struggles to get international funding and partnership, and it will cost the taxpayer in South Africa R80 billion to generate a possible only 165MW over six years.

You also requested Parliament in August 2009 for an extension regarding the submission of the PBMR 2009 annual report to avoid a qualified audit report. There appears to be no fixed policy with regard to the direction of PBMR. Originally, the PBMR was established in 1999 with the intention to develop and market small-scale high temperature reactors both locally and internationally. Then earlier this year, PBMR redesigned itself from the original concept as a single direct cycle electricity-generating machine that would use helium to power a gas turbine to a more flexible machine. Now it seems as if PBMR is not sure about its own future. What is the way forward or should we expect a repeat of the uncertainty that has characterised the implementation of this project? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, I don’t know, but would like to discuss with Dr Van Dyk the amount of R80 billion. I know that government’s commitment at this stage has been R8 billion, but perhaps lets look at those figures and I’d like to compare your estimation on that.

Definitely, I would like to agree with everyone here that the future of the PBMR is of concern to all South Africans. As I said in my question, the model is in the process of being revised in light of the current economic situation and the restraints on the fiscus. That is why we have asked for postponement of the Annual General Meeting, AGM, because we want to engage in a serious review of the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor, PBMR, programme. We will be coming to Parliament and to the AGM with a better understanding of that particular programme.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Chairperson, Minister, has your department been involved in prioritising and interrogating issues around waste management and other security concerns; and have community concerns been thoroughly investigated and engaged from the perspective of public enterprises? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Our department is really not responsible for waste management. That falls under the Department of Energy. But let me just say in respect of the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor, PBMR, perspective, it is regarded as possibly the safest of the nuclear reactors, because its technology means it cannot go into a meltdown. So, from that perspective it is regarded as safer than anything else.

In terms of waste management, obviously there is waste generated at Koeberg, and there is medium-risk waste that is sited further away in the Northern Cape. This site is very far away from any local community. I think we have to distinguish between concerns that are raised by residents who live around Pelindaba – and I don’t think many of them are well founded — and concerns around waste management, which is in a very remote area and subjected to international protocols. It is not high-risk waste that is stored there, but simply medium-risk waste. Steps taken to promote export opportunities for agricultural products at competitive prices and to protect local grain producers

1. Dr L L BOSMAN (DA) asked the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries:

   (1) Whether her department has taken any steps to (a) promote export opportunities for agricultural products and (b) ensure competitive prices for these products on global markets; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what steps;

   (2) whether any mechanisms are used by her department to protect local grain producers from competing against the importation of highly subsidised products from abroad; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO1408E

The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, the Department of Agriculture Forestry and Fisheries works closely with the Department of Trade and Industry on the agricultural export promotion drives. We hope to work even closer on export promotion for agricultural products.

Since the phasing out of export subsidy schemes, like the General Export Incentive Scheme of the Department of Trade and Industry, the government does not subsidise exports or prices in any distorting way. There are no direct interventions to ensure that prices are internationally competitive.

The Department of Agriculture Forestry and Fisheries has been working very hard for a number of years to lobby international forums to motivate for the elimination of export subsidies because of its distorting effects on trade. The removal of these subsidies will ensure that our products compete on a fair basis. Direct export subsidies will be removed only by 2013, if the Doha Round concludes, and other production subsidies that could result in unfair competition will be reduced.

It is also important to acknowledge that the global trading system is unfair and inequitable, particularly with regard to agricultural products. Trade remedies offer only limited possibilities. The real challenge is to continue to campaign against unfair trade rules. Both the United States and the European Union have recently reinstated export subsidies on dairy products. Thank you.

Dr L L BOSMAN: Chairperson, I would like to thank the Minister for the answer. I think the hon Minister will understand that the local wheat production industry has decreased, in terms of the area planted, by 52,7% since 1997, due to these uncompetitive prices and the scenario sketched.

The question is: Is the Minister considering introducing an import tariff in line with the World Trade Organisation, WTO, Rules, which she has just mentioned, to stimulate local wheat production for South Africa to become self-sufficient again?

The import levy system used by government before 2003 imposed levies of up to 34%, while thereafter it was replaced by an import tariff which varied between zero and 2,32%, which resulted in huge losses to producers and consequently also a decline in the production of wheat.

Due to this decline in production, South Africa currently imports 1 million tons of low-grade wheat, resulting in the industry losing local producers, thousands of job opportunities, as well as hard-earned foreign exchange. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, the farmers and farm organisations have, over a number of years, approached the International Trade and Administration Commission, Itac, where they experienced unfair trade, and the commission has always investigated such requests.

The wheat industry has recently approached the Minister of Trade and Industry as well as the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries regarding the possibility of import tariffs to stimulate the wheat industry. We have invited the organisation to apply and put their request in writing in order to be considered.

We, as the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, also developed an Agricultural Tariff Policy Framework for consideration by the DTI at its International Trade and Administration Commission. We are, in particular, looking at the application of a tariff policy on agricultural products. Thank you.

Mr M N PHALISO: Chairperson, regarding the Minister’s response to question 1(a), I would, firstly, like to ask the hon the Minister what the role of the National Agricultural Marketing Council is.

Secondly, arising further from the hon the Minister’s reply to 1(b), there are commodities which are being imported from countries which are highly subsidised. Yet, there are no import tariffs and our emergent sector needs to be protected against cheap imports.

What measures do the hon the Minister’s department and other departments have in place? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon Phaliso for the question.

The Agricultural Marketing Council assists the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries in ensuring that all sectors in the industry, as well as all commodity sectors, have access to equitable shares in the agricultural marketing sector. The department has been working quite closely with the Agricultural Marketing Council to ensure that historically disadvantaged farmers or black farmers have equal access to markets.

However, we are compromised by countries which are highly subsidising their agricultural products. As I have previously expressed, we are working with the Department of Trade and Industry in our application of trade policy on all agricultural products. Thank you.

Mr L S NGONYAMA: Chairperson, I’m sure that we would accept the explanation that the Minister has given to us with regard to the cushioning of some of these produce, especially grain.

Firstly, we would actually like the Minister to explain exactly which of the other agricultural produce – except for grain – are actually affected by these heavily subsidised importations.

Secondly, in South Africa we are beginning to experience a situation with regard to agriculture where we are importing more than we are exporting. It means therefore that agriculture is shrinking. Is there any strategy in place to revive and reinforce agriculture in South Africa so that it becomes self-sufficient? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, the product that I can immediately speak of, off the cuff, is the importation of sugar from Swaziland. Swaziland produces sugar at a price that is hugely reduced in comparison to South Africa, and imports of sugar from Swaziland thus happen to be far cheaper.

The situation in our country, as of the end of last year, including the first quarter of this year, showed a net decline in agricultural production by more than 17%. Our country has also, for the first time, recorded being a net importer of food instead of being a net exporter of food.

The cost of production in agriculture is extremely high. It is this type of production costs that we are looking at in terms of the industry sector organisations, as well as the Department of Trade and Industry.

Mitigating the high production costs is a very challenging situation for us. It is particularly challenging when it comes to production costs for our historically disadvantaged farmers. It is one of the reasons why a number of farms, which were sold via the Land Bank, could not repay their debt burden. It is now the department’s programme of action to intervene with regard to these distressed farms, particularly when it comes to production capital or production loans. I thank you.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Chairperson, the hon Minister has been quoted as saying that South Africa was spearheading a debate in Africa on the decommodification of basic foodstuffs. So, I was wondering if the hon Minister could give us some idea, from the department’s point of view, of what decommodification of basic foodstuffs actually means, what the benefits are and where the challenges lie. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, the decommodification of basic foodstuffs is in line with the African Union as well the Southern African Development Community’s emphasis on food security and food sovereignty.

We are specifically looking at the development of drought-resistant seeds for basic foodstuffs like maize, sugar and wheat. We then look at the tariffs which are imposed on these foodstuffs and how the tariffs make these foodstuffs totally too expensive and beyond the reach of the general working class population in Africa. So, when it comes to decommodification, the discussion and the debate is still ongoing. I thank you.

Steps to ensure financial accountability from new Board and management of the SABC, as a politically unbiased public broadcaster

1. Ms J D Kilian (Cope) asked the Minister of Communications:

   (1) Whether his department intends taking any steps to ensure financial accountability from the new Board and management of the SA Broadcasting Corporation (SABC); if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (2) whether he will take any steps to ensure that the SABC carries out its mandate as an independent, politically unbiased public broadcaster; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO1434E

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chairperson, the answer to the first question is as follows: The Department of Communications intends taking additional steps to ensure financial accountability from the new board and management of the South African Broadcasting Corporation, SABC. These will be based on the provisions of the Broadcasting Act of 1999 and the Public Finance Management Act of 1999, the relevant treasury regulations, the Articles of Association for the SABC, and the Shareholder Compact agreed upon annually with the SABC. All of which define specific roles for the Ministers, directors-general and Parliament regarding financial accountability and oversight. I am committed to ensuring adherence to these principles, as mentioned, and I will also ensure that the SABC board adheres to the principles of good corporate governance outlined in the King III report.

The specific steps the department intends to take are as follows: Firstly, more regular meetings between the SABC board and management and the department; secondly, regular meetings between the department and the SABC to discuss the SABC’s quarterly performance report, both financial and nonfinancial; thirdly, more regular financial reporting to the department, that is quarterly financial statements and monthly management accounts; fourthly, regular reports to the department from the audit and/or risk committees; and, fifthly, access to all internal audit reports of the SABC. The pending reports from the Auditor-General and the SABC interim board, as well as the SABC task team, will also indicate what steps need to be taken.

My answer to the second question is that it should be noted that the news editor of the SABC is always appointed by the board of the SABC without any interference or influence from or by the Minister. In addition, the Broadcasting Act of 1999, specifically protects the SABC’s editorial independence. Section 6(3) states:

In terms of the Charter, the Corporation will, in pursuit of its
objectives and in exercise of its powers, enjoy freedom of expression
and journalistic creativity and programming independence.

Section 6(2) of the Act gives the responsibility of ensuring compliance with the Charter of the SABC to the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa, Icasa. Furthermore, the Shareholder Compact shall also provide that the corporation adheres to all the provisions of the Broadcasting Act, including the ones on the independence of the SABC. The Department of Communications and I are committed to the principle of editorial independence and freedom of expression as enshrined in the Constitution of South Africa. [Time expired.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Minister, unfortunately your time has expired. I gave you an extra one minute for your maiden speech, but it has expired.

Ms J D KILIAN: Chairperson, firstly, let me say that we are particularly happy, as Cope, that the Minister has expressed his firm support for an independent news bulletin and coverage. However, we would like to make two points as far as this is concerned.

Firstly, there is a concern that, as a result of very eager participation by the ruling alliance in the nomination of the board process, there is a perception that many of the candidates have very straight links with the ANC at very high levels, and it will, therefore, be particularly important for the Minister to prove that he will make sure that there will be no further political interference.

By way of indication, would he support an independent investigation by an independent agency into news coverage that is being portrayed on the news bulletins, as well as the daily news activity programmes, to ensure that there is equitable coverage of all political parties in South Africa?

Secondly, will he … [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Mr H P CHAUKE: On a point of order: Chairperson, I want it to be clarified to the House that we only have one ruling party, which is the ANC. We don’t have what is called “the ruling alliance” in South Africa.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): It is not a point of order. Thank you very much.

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chairperson, as I said, we will jealously guard the independence of the SABC, its news and editorial policy. We will support any measure that seeks to ensure that this happens. I thank you.

Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, let me thank the hon Minister for the responses. Except for coverage during the election debates on a Sunday evening, which were fair in terms of time representation, it is common knowledge that the ruling party of this country gets more time than any other party on news coverage. Will the hon Minister be able to obtain and furnish this House with statistics of times that different political parties receive in the news broadcast in a period of, say, six months?

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chairperson, the SABC and its board are appointed by this Assembly. If there are any doubts as to its editorial independence or bias in the news, they are summoned to this Assembly and to the relevant portfolio committee to answer and that should be explored. We, from the point of view of the Department, will ensure, as I indicated, greater monitoring of the SABC, as well as of its editorial independence going forward. Thank you.

Ms M R MORUTOA: Chairperson, thank you Minister for the commendable efforts with regard to ensuring sound corporate governance and financial accountability within the SABC. We are satisfied that the Ministry of Communications supports an independent and politically unbiased public broadcaster.

However, we need more clarity on the financial model proposed for the SABC in the intended Public Service Broadcasting Bill. Thank you very much.

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chairperson, in the Bill it is proposed that a public service broadcasting fund be established. Money paid to this fund will come from, amongst others, public service broadcasting levies collected in terms of the Income Tax Act of 1962, money appropriated by Parliament, money accruing to the public service broadcasting fund from any other sources and contributions from business. [Interjections.]

We have tabled a Public Service Broadcasting Act for public discussion, and it contains some of these provisions. The money from this fund will be utilised for the purpose of international service divisions; to pay subsidies to the media development and diversity agency; to subsidise broadcasting licences; and any such measures and uses determined by the Minister from time to time after consultation with the Minister of Finance. I thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order!

Mr N J VAN DEN BERG: Chairperson, I’m sure the Minister hasn’t got a written reply to my question. [Laughter.] I’m sure about that. It’s very easy to talk about independency and throw around a lot of words, but the House would want to know what the Minister’s definition of independency is. Is it the ANC’s version of independency or the real meaning of the word, as the DA sees it? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chairperson, I don’t know through which eyes or tainted spectacles the DA sees the issue of independence. Independence is an objective term. It means that the broadcaster is free to determine its own editorial policy without any interference from any political party.

Ms M P MENTOR: Chairperson, on a point of order: There is no such thing as “independency”. I would just like to point that out to hon Van Den Berg on that side.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon member, grammar can be rectified somewhere else.

Strategies of Khula to deal with risk factors faced by commercial banks and risks attached to loadable funds

1. Mr A J Williams (ANC) asked the Minister of Trade and Industry:

   (a) How will Khula deal with (i) the risk factors faced by commercial banks and (ii) the high risks attached to loadable funds and (b) how will Khula’s strategies differ from those used by commercial banks? NO1459E

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson, the answer to (a)(i) is that the risks that Khula is facing are essentially the same as those faced by any other lending institutions. Khula, therefore, needs to ensure that its credit passing and collection are in line with the lending criteria and benchmarked against similar development finance institutions. Khula does however understand the requirements of small businesses, perhaps even better than many other financiers. It is more sensitive to the requirements of small businesses and the problems that may result in them not being able to meet payment obligations.

The answer to (a) (ii) is that Khula does not presently make use of loadable funds.

The answer to (b) is that Khula is a development finance institution committed to providing finance to small and medium-sized enterprises, SMEs, particularly those that are unable to borrow from banks. Khula’s risk appetite is therefore different to that of commercial banks. It is prepared to fund businesses that experience problems obtaining bank finance, namely start-up businesses; business in early phases of expansion; businesses that cannot provide collateral for their loans; and businesses requiring loans of less than half-a-million rand. Its priority target market includes businesses owned by women and businesses in the less economically developed provinces.

During the 2008-09 financial year, Khula disbursed R281 million to 2 829 SMEs, of which 36% were in targeted provinces. The main criteria Khula uses to determine whether it will lend to a small business is to evaluate whether the business will be sustainable. If necessary, it will provide mentorship to support and assist business owners in becoming established. Thank you. Mr S J NJIKELANA: Chairperson, I would like to thank the Minister for his illustrative answer.

Now, some banks such as Absa have revised their policy on guarantees issued by Khula to finance start-up businesses. The guarantee scheme offers up to R1 million in finance, but banks are unfortunately not willing to go that far. What plan of action does Khula have to close the gap, considering the economic crisis? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson, I think hon Njikelana is quite right that, despite the provision of guarantees, this has not leveraged from banks the desirable amount of lending to small businesses, particularly small businesses among historically disadvantaged people. For that reason, while we are not abandoning the guarantee programme, we are actually launching Khula as a direct retail operation. So, it is going to move from being a wholesaler working through other intermediaries to providing direct services to customers. By the end of this year or early next year, the first phases of the roll-out of the Khula Direct launch should be completed.

At the same time, and in the context of a number of initiatives, including the continued discussions around the Financial Sector Charter, we are trying to press the commercial banks to increase their lending to small enterprises. It is however the category of between R50 000 and R500 000 that is a particularly hard nut to crack, but that is precisely the area where there are real opportunities for sustainable livelihoods to be created. That is why we are going to have to enhance the role of Khula. Thank you.

Mnr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Voorsitter, ek wil die agb Minister bedank vir sy verwysing na die uitbreiding van Khula Finance na Khula Direct. Dit word voorgehou as ’n antwoord op die finansieringsprobleme van kleinsakeondernemings.

Met betrekking tot die vestiging van Khula Direct het die agb Minister nou gesê dat dit moontlik aan die einde van die jaar sal geskied. In die lig daarvan dat die Kabinet reeds in 2008 verlof verleen het vir die stigting van Khula Direct, kan die agb Minister meer spesifiek wees?

Eerstens, hoe ver is daar gevorder met die implementering van Khula Direct, en wanneer sal die eerste entrepreneurs onder hierdie skema gehelp word?

Tweedens, wat is die begroting vir Khula Direct en die vestiging van hierdie program?

Derdens, hoe gaan die agb Minister verseker dat die fondse effektief aangewend word sodat die mees verdienstelike ondernemings voorrang sal geniet? Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Chairperson, I want to thank the hon Minister for referring to the expansion of Khula Finance to Khula Direct. It is proffered as an answer to the funding problems that small businesses experience.

With regard to the roll-out of Khula Direct, the hon Minister announced here that it would probably take place at the end of the year. In light of the fact that the Cabinet granted permission for the establishment of Khula Direct in 2008 already, could the hon Minister be more specific?

Firstly, what progress has been made with regard to the implementation of Khula Direct, and when will the first entrepreneurs be assisted under this scheme?

Secondly, what is the budget for Khula Direct and the roll-out of this programme?

Thirdly, how will the hon Minister ensure that the funds are utilised effectively so that the most deserving enterprises receive preference? Thank you.]

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson, I agree that, in terms of the timetable, we have been talking about Khula Direct for a while. One of the reasons we have had a bit of a delay was that we had to transition to a new CEO or managing director, MD, and that the new MD took his post on 9 July. Then there is also the question of the board. Notwithstanding those, I think we envisage that the roll-out will hopefully begin before the end of the year, if not, then early next year.

As far as the budget is concerned, even if I had the figures at my fingertips – which I don’t, and that’s not what was asked in the question – I’m afraid that I am not at liberty to disclose what budget decisions are going to be, ahead of the budget itself. So I cannot give any indication of that.

I want to say that we are aiming at the provision of direct access to the public. Small businesses that need finance should be able to approach the institution directly and make their case directly – that is what Khula Direct is all about - instead of having to operate through NGOs, intermediaries or through the banks. Now, those routes will still be available, but we think that Khula Direct will give greater access to the public. Of course, we are looking at this as an expanding programme as we move ahead. Thank you.

Ms S P LEBENYA-NTANZI: Chairperson, the IFP believes that successful small businesses and co-operatives are essential to the development and growth of our economy, especially in the current economic conditions. My question to the hon the Minister is whether there has been an increase in nonpayment during this period and whether Khula has measures in place to assist their customers who are struggling to pay back their loans. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson, I think that question is actually one the hon member should consider putting down for a more detailed answer.

I don’t have the figures with me right now, but I think it is probably worth putting that down as a real question, so that we can see the extent of this.

I am not particularly aware that there is a major emergency, but I do have a sense – as I suppose many hon members do – that small businesses are probably disproportionately affected by the crisis. I have been trying to see what we can do to find out the extent of this but, as far as I am aware, it is not particularly evident in defaults to Khula, but I do think it would be worth putting down the question so that we can find out the exact picture. Thank you.

Mr P D DEXTER: Chairperson, despite what the hon Minister says, all the evidence seems to bear out that the terms that Khula gives are as onerous as those of private institutions, that the defaults are as high as those experienced by private lenders, and that the success rates – in terms of the performance of the companies – are as low. How will direct lending change this reality?

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson, I don’t think that direct lending is a magic bullet; I think there are some very important debates about development finance institutions which we still have to have.

If we want institutions like Khula to take more risk – in particular in a sector where the rate of survival of small businesses, from start-up to surviving the first year, is only about 50% - are we then willing to address the issues of financing in that kind of context? I think those are some of the bigger debates.

Direct lending itself will improve access to the products. Some small businesses obviously seek finance through intermediaries, but then the intermediaries also take their cut.

Some of the work, in particular work done by intermediaries through the banks, has been through the guarantee scheme. We had a long debate with the banks and at the end of the day the banks said that they did not want guarantees against defaults; they actually wanted other customers that they wanted to support. I think that indicates that there is a failure in the market and that there is a gap that Khula needs to fill progressively on an improved basis. Thank you.

   Investigation into alleged inhumane treatment of farmworkers in
                            Stellenbosch

1. Mrs N M Twala (ANC) asked the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries:

   Whether, with reference to a protest by farmworkers outside Parliament recently, she or her department has conducted any investigation into the alleged inhumane treatment of farmworkers in Stellenbosch; if not, why not; if so, what were the findings of the investigation? NO1465E

The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, yes, the department is aware of the farmworkers’ protest outside Parliament recently. Our mandate as the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries is to liberate black people in general and African people in particular. Most of the farmworkers who are affected are the black majority, the poorest of the poor and rural women to be exact.

The national Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries is working with the Western Cape department. They have been requested to liaise with relevant farmworker organisations to investigate where there are allegations against any commercial farmer, be it in the country or in Stellenbosch.

We are of the opinion that when we do meet with the Food and Allied Workers Union, Fawu, the Department of Labour, as well as the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform, we will have a summit to address the plight of farmworkers. We are not asking for something that is impossible, but we are asking for something that is within reach. For now we think we are moving very slowly in this regard. We think we should be more decisive around protecting the rights of farmworkers.

As Parliament, we thank the member for providing a strategic direction and for developing a critical opportunity for us to develop this sector for farmworkers in agriculture. Thank you.

Ms N M TWALA: Chairperson, thank you Minister for your elaborate response. Our concern has been about the abuse by farmers that has been taking place on farms. We are happy that there are steps that have been taken. Thank you.

Mnr P J C PRETORIUS: Minister, ons glo dis verkeerd om Stellenbosch in hierdie geval uit te sonder. Stellenbosch verskil nie van die res van die land nie.

Huisvesting is sekerlik een van die kernkwessies wat hier ter sprake is. Terwyl dit die regering se grondwetlike verantwoordelikheid is om toegang tot voldoende huisvesting vir almal te verseker, is die vraag of die regering die afgelope jare sy plig nagekom het om behuising vir plaaswerkers te voorsien. Die vraag is ook in watter mate boere finansieel ondersteun was om behuising vir plaaswerkers te voorsien. Indien nie, hoe beplan die regering om toekomstige huisvesting vir plaaswerkers te verseker, ter bevrediging van boere sowel as plaaswerkers? Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr P J C Pretorius: Hon Minister, we believe it is wrong in this case to single out Stellenbosch. Stellenbosch does not differ from the rest of the country.

Housing is surely one of the key issues that is relevant here. Whilst it is the government’s constitutional obligation to ensure access to adequate housing for all, the question remains whether the government has fulfilled its obligation to provide housing to farmworkers in recent years. The question is also to what extent farmers were supported financially to provide housing to farmworkers. If not, how does the government intend to ensure housing for farmworkers in the future, to the satisfaction of farmers as well as farmworkers? I thank you.]

The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, I have explained that we are looking at all farmworkers in the country. But since the protest was from farmworkers in the Stellenbosch area, we are focusing on this area. We agree that Stellenbosch does not differ from other areas. At least for now the member is acknowledging that there is abuse. In the past, they even refused to acknowledge that such abuse existed. I am glad that at last the member is acknowledging that there is abuse. [Applause.] About the development of housing on farms, a farm happens to be private property. The state has no legal opportunity to develop state housing on private property unless farmers allow a certain section of the farm to be rezoned as housing land. The state has no legal right to develop housing on the land of the private property of farm owners. Up until now, particularly white farm owners have been reluctant to give up land for the development of housing by the state.

The approach we are developing now with the Minister of Human Settlements is to request different organisations that organise farm owners to allow us to cordon off and to rezone a piece of land from farms which are privately owned to ensure that we can establish housing villages which will be in the form of eco-villages for farmworkers. I think that the state has had no opportunity to do this. Where there is private property, there is limited opportunity available for the state to intervene. You would notice that where there were farm schools, those farm schools were treated as public schools on private property. The state had limited opportunity to even renovate those schools since they belonged to the owner of the farm as private property. [Interjections.] Thank you. [Time expired.]

Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Minister, I wanted to ask you whether the department has plans to create agrivillages in the Stellenbosch area. Obviously, from what you are saying, you’ve moved in that direction. How will this address the abuse of farmworkers?

Obviously it is much easier to deal with abuse if it is specified and if we know what is classified as abuse. Do you foresee a situation where farmworkers will ever be able to access something like the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA, or some other mediation process? What thoughts have gone along these lines, and how do you see that developing? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, thanks to the hon Dudley for once again acknowledging that there is a problem of abuse of farmworkers. I have already spoken about agrivillages.

Yes, farmworkers do have access to the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA, but they are more often than not denied this access because of their low standard of living and low opportunities. This is a matter that we are developing with the Department of Labour to ensure that where there are cases that should be reaching CCMA, we assist farmworkers through legal aid.

We are also looking at the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to investigate the opportunities of having community development workers assisting farmworkers when it comes to their rights. The basic rights of farmworkers are still being undermined. The rights of farmworkers are human rights which are being neglected. When we speak about human rights, we often neglect to mention the rights of farmworkers. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Chairperson, I am happy that the Minister mentioned that they are working together with the Department of Labour and its Minister. I just wonder whether the rescue package that the Minister explained is also applicable to farmworkers in terms of their plight on the farms. Maybe the Minister must comment on this issue.

The second issue I want to mention is the matter of abuse. Is the abuse of farmworkers viewed in a very serious light? If abuse has happened, we would like to see a proper investigation around what actually happened to that particular farmworker. We want to know the facts about it.

More importantly, I am also happy that the Minister mentioned that they are looking at this problem nationally. We wonder whether the Minister will accept the issue of actually having a proper independent investigation, because farmworkers are at the heart of nation-building as well. This is an issue about having a commission to make sure that we understand the whole problem as a country and understand how to deal with these particular instances - an independent commission that government will put together to investigate this matter holistically and then table its findings. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, the Human Rights Commission and the Department of Police have been included in this initial investigation. We do not have a rescue package for farmworkers, but we have one for historically disadvantaged farmers who took loans through the Land Bank. The rescue package for now pertains specifically to the Land Bank farms that are in distress.

Once we have done our preliminary findings, we will then be able to appoint a commission which will then be able to work with specific instructions and with a particular mandate. We cannot just immediately and summarily appoint a commission without a specific mandate. We are convinced that such a commission is required. I do not think that after 15 years we can still say that this evil of abuse against the poorest of the poor is still being perpetuated. I thank you. [Applause.]

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr N J J VAN R KOORNHOF: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next sitting: That this House –

(1) notes that –

    (a) the Department of Environmental Affairs has reported that
        abalone poaching has reached a crisis point; and


      b) large sections of our coast are not monitored and that the
         Department has lost control;


 2) requests the Minister of Water and Environmental Affairs to
    immediately start an investigation to establish why this state of
    affairs occur and take immediate steps to remedy it.

Mr K S MUBU: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move the following motion:

That this House debates South Africa’s position on the creation of united states of Africa as currently under discussion at the African Union, and as advocated by President Muammar Gaddafi of Libya in his famous book, The Green Book.

Mr D A KGANARE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of this House, I will move the following motion:

That this House – 1) notes that –

    (a)      pressure has been placed on one of the strong candidates
          for appointment as the chief executive officer of Transnet;
          and


       b) the preferred candidate of the Minister of Justice and
          Constitutional Development and the Minister of Communications
          is facing disciplinary action for allegedly interfering in
          two contracts, including one that has links with the Minister
          of Communication, Mr Siphiwe Nyanda; and


  2) request the Minister of Public Enterprises to ensure that the
     appointment of the chief executive officer of Transnet is based on
     transparent criteria to ensure that the best suitable candidate is
     appointed rather than a favourite candidate of the SACP-led ANC
     Government.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon members, the Speaker ruled that notices for motion should be as brief as possible, and people are expanding on that particular issue unnecessary. But thank you, nonetheless.

Mr N J VAN DEN BERG: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move the following motion: That this House –

  1) debates the wasteful expenditure incurred by the SABC in producing
     programmes that are not being broadcast; and


  2) the intention of the SABC not to produce any further local
     content. I thank you. [Applause.]

                SOUTH AFRICAN HOMELESS WORLD CUP TEAM

                         (Draft resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

 1) notes the presence in Parliament today of the South African team who
    just arrived back from Milan as the champions of the Homeless World
    Cup Tournament;


 2) further notes that the team competed against teams from 48 countries
    and beat Malawi 9-1 in the finals;

 3) congratulates those who are associated with this magnificent
    achievement, including the My Life Foundation and the South African
    Homeless Cup Steering Committee; and

 4) affirms that through their endeavours, these young people have shown
    us that adversity in life is no determinant of achievement or
    success, but that it is hard work and the passion to succeed that
    set winners and champions apart.

Agreed to.

                            LAYLATUL QADR

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

 1) notes that today is “Laylatul Qadr”, the culmination of the month-
    long fasting of Ramadan for the Muslim community, a day singled out
    for special worship and special blessings;


 2) further notes that tonight is also known as the night of power, and
    is regarded as the holiest night of the month of Ramadan during
    which the faithful seek pardon from Allah;
 3) acknowledges and thanks the Muslim community for their selfless
    contribution to charity during this period;

 4) wishes all Muslims across the country Eid Mubarak, and

 5) trusts that this festival will be one of joy, family reunion and
    thanksgiving.

Agreed to.

       PASSING OF NORMAN BORLAUG, FATHER OF “GREEN REVOLUTION”

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, I move without notice:

That the House –

 1) notes with sadness that agriculture pioneer and Nobel Prize
    recipient Norman Borlaug, also known as the father of the Green
    Revolution, has passed away;


 2) further notes that the Green Revolution helped food production more
    than double between 1960 and 1990, thereby averting a worldwide
    famine, saving hundreds of millions of lives in Asia, Africa, and
    Latin America;

 3) acknowledges that despite this massive contribution millions of
    people, including a large number of people within our own country,
    are still faced with hunger on a daily basis;

 4) calls for a Green Revolution within South Africa to turn this
    unnecessary situation around; and

 5) conveys its deepest sympathies to the family and friends of
    Professor Borlaug during this difficult time.

Agreed to.

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 17:11. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance (a) Report and Financial Statements of the Public Investment Corporation Limited for 2008-2009, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2008-2009 [RP 59-2009].

2. The Acting Minister of Basic Education

(a)     Report and Financial Statements of the  South  African  Council
    for  Educators  for  2008-2009,  including  the   Report   of   the
    Independent Auditors on the Financial  Statements  and  Performance
    Information for 2008-2009.

National Assembly

1. The Speaker

(a)     Report of the Public Service Commission (PSC) on the Management
    of Job Applicants with a Criminal Record in the Public Service  [RP
    20-2009].

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly

1. Report of the Ad Hoc Committee to Nominate a Person for Appointment as Public Protector, dated 16 September 2009:

 The Ad Hoc Committee to Nominate a Person  for  Appointment  as  Public
 Protector was established on 25 June  2009.   The  Committee  held  its
 first meeting on 25 August 2009. The Committee  noted  that  more  than
 half of the nominations / applications received did not meet the  basic
 requirements as laid down in the Public Protector Act, 23 of 1994.  The
 Committee further noted that the advertised deadline of 8 May 2009  for
 the submission of nominations coincided with the  recent  national  and
 provincial elections. The Committee decided to extend the deadline  for
 nomination to 4 September 2009.

 The Committee shortlisted and interviewed the following 8 candidates:


 Mr Mhlaliseni Michael Mthembu
 Ms Thulisile Nomkhosi Madonsela
 Professor Mzamo Alexander Gumbi
 Advocate Linda Pienaar
 Advocate Audrey Elisa Mpofu
 Advocate Mamiki Thabitha Shai
 Advocate Mohammed Alli Chicktay
 Advocate Loyiso Khanyisa Bunye Mpumlwana


 Having considered and deliberated on the outcome of the interviews, the
 Committee unanimously recommends that Ms Thulisile  Nomkhosi  Madonsela
 be appointed as Public Protector.


 Report to be considered.