National Council of Provinces - 25 September 2008
THURSDAY, 25 SEPTEMBER 2008 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
____
The Council met at 14:09.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
TEMPORARY SUSPENSION OF PROCEEDINGS
(Announcement)
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I have been informed by the Whip that there is a request from the members to adjourn the House and start again at four o’clock. Whilst I am not against that, I want to draw the attention of the House to the fact that the results have already been announced in the NA and that the process is finished. What is happening now is that the political parties are just making some statements. After that, I have been informed, the process will be as follows: After each party has made a statement, which I think is about two or three minutes each, the NA will adjourn and then there will be a swearing-in of the President at Tuynhuys. After the swearing-in, the NA will reconvene and then the President will come and address the House.
The question I want to put to you is: Do you want to continue now and deal with the work of this Chamber and then go to the NA during the time when the President addresses the House or do you want to postpone proceedings until four o’clock? Both would be acceptable if the Whip could guide me and we can adjourn the House formally. That means from now until four o’clock you will not be doing anything because the President will not be around; he will be sworn in and he will come back later to address the NA. If you could guide the Chair on that, the House can then take a decision.
Mr V V Z WINDVOËL: Chairperson, my proposal is that we continue with motions and statements. My concern is that if we start debates now, it would not be possible because the Ministers will also be expected to be in the other House. We can’t adjourn midway through a debate. It will then make the debate lose its essence. My proposal is that we deal with motions and statements, and then adjourn to reconvene immediately after the brand- new President’s address. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There is a proposal from hon Windvoël. Is it supported? [Interjections.]
Ms B L NTEMBE: Chairperson, I second the proposal of the hon Mr V V Z Windvoël.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The whole House agrees and I thank you very much for your co-operation. I think that is the right process to follow because other Ministers who have to deal with these issues are not here currently. Let’s deal with the other business of the House. Once we are done, then we can adjourn and wait for those Ministers so that they are able to address us.
NOTICE OF MOTION
Mr V V Z WINDVOЁL: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the Council I shall move:
That the Council -
(1) notes with utter dismay and apprehension the persistence of the opportunistic Democratic Alliance, DA, which today nominated its federal chairman Joe Seremane for the position of President of the Republic of South Africa;
(2) further notes that during the party’s federal council in May 2008, Joe Seremane availed himself for the position of the leadership of the DA and was not elected, and that today he is being made a joke of by being nominated to be President, while they have their own party leader in Parliament who has not been nominated for such a position;
(3) acknowledges that this act not only undermines the highly esteemed position of President of the Republic of South Africa, but is also an embarrassment to its party chairperson; and
(4) takes this opportunity to congratulate the Deputy President of the ANC, Comrade Kgalema Motlanthe on his nomination and successful election to be the country’s President and truly believes that his stalwart leadership will continue to ensure that the government continues to deliver on its commitment to ensure a better life for the people of South Africa.
BIRTHDAY WISHES TO CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP
(Draft Resolution)
The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL (Mr M A Sulliman): Chair, I move without notice:
That the Council –
(1) notes that today, 25 September 2008, marks the birthday of the Chief Whip of the Council, hon Ms N D Ntwanambi; (2) further notes that the hon Ntwanambi was born in Gugulethu in the Western Cape province and her unparalleled dedication to the struggle against apartheid and the gender stereotyping of women saw her rise from the dusty streets of Gugulethu to serving in various leadership structures of the political formation that pioneered the demise of the apartheid regime in 1994, including serving in various positions in the ANC and the ANC Women’s League, as well as being elected as the first female Chief Whip of the NCOP;
(3) acknowledges that the hon Ntwanambi is undoubtedly an accomplished, dynamic and courageous public leader who joins the list of leaders who have played a pivotal role in helping define the political and social fabric of postapartheid South Africa; and
(4) takes this opportunity to wish her a happy birthday and many more years to come.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
PRESIDENTIAL NOMINATION BY OPPOSITION
(Draft Resolution)
Mnu D D GAMEDE: Sihlalo, ngiphakamisa ngaphandle kwesaziso: ukuthi lo Mkhandlu -
1) ugxeka isenzo salabo abahlekisa ngomunye uMhlonishwa bemphakamisela
ukuba abe nguMongameli wezwe kodwa, asikuphinde lokhu, bengavumi
ukuthi abe nguMongameli wenhlangano yabo;
2) ubona ukuthi lokhu kungubufakazi bokuthi bangosomathuba futhi;
3) wexwayisa abantu baseNingizimu Afrika ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr D D GAMEDE: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council –
1) criticises the action by those who are turning an hon member into a
laughing stock when they nominate him to be the President of the
country whereas, let us say this again, they do not allow him to be
the president of their party;
2) realises that this is proof of opportunism; and
(3) warns the people of South Africa …]
Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, on a point of order: Can I be protected against this hon “newspaper reader”?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Watson, I have granted you a point of order.
Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it in order with the Rules of this House that two motions of the same substance are read one after the other? I think it is against the Rules.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, they are not the same. [Interjections.] No, they are not the same. We are dealing with motions without notice. If you want to object to the motion, you can object.
Hon member, you can continue.
Mnu D D GAMEDE: Ngiyaqhubeka -
... ikakhulukazi KwaZulu-Natali lapho siqhamuka khona ngisho
eMgungundlovu, eThekwini, eGingindlovu, oLundi imbala naseNkandla
mabazixwaye izinhlangano ezingakhathalele ikusasa laleli zwe.
Ngiyophakamisa. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Mr D D GAMEDE: I am continuing – … especially KwaZulu-Natal where we come from, namely Pietermaritzburg, Durban, Gingindlovu, Ulundi and Nkandla, that they must be aware of political parties that are not concerned about the future of this country.]
Motion without notice became notice of motion.
PRECEDENCE GIVEN TO THIRD ORDER OF THE DAY
(Draft Resolution)
The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL (Mr M A Sulliman): Chair, I move without notice:
That the First and Second Orders on the Order Paper be moved to become the last Orders of the day on the Order Paper.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
SKILLS DEVELOPMENT AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Mr N S S MQUNGQUTHU: Chairperson, colleagues, today we are facing a tough challenge of skills development that poses new challenges for the growing economy in our country. Ever since the 2004 general elections, skills development has been targeted as a vehicle towards higher economic performance and forms part of the current Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa, Asgisa, project.
The current amendment to the national Skills Development Act of 1998 forms part of a broader process of reviewing and strengthening integration and co- ordination of the national human resource development strategy, including the Joint Initiative for Priority Skills Acquisition, Jipsa, to ensure long- term provision of core and critical skills, especially in the private sector. While the review of the human resource development strategy was completed in July this year, amendments to the Skills Development Act are mostly co-ordinated institutional machineries to speed service delivery and to improve the quality of education and training in the workplace.
The Bill centralises quality assurance in workplace learning, also including general and tertiary learning, which fall under Umalusi and the Quality Council for Higher Education, and related subsections, including the following subsections which I will not read to save time because members want to go to the National Assembly.
In conclusion, I’m sincerely requesting my colleagues to accept and pass this Bill today as a matter of practice and not as mere theory in our mind- set. I thank you once again for being so kind and beautiful to the people of Umzansi. I therefore request the House to support this Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I shall now put the question. The question is that the Bill, Bill 49B of 2008, subject to proposed amendments, be agreed to. In accordance with Rule 63, I shall first allow political parties to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any party that wishes to do so? None. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. Before I call the voting, please press button one. You remember those things to confirm your presence. And there should be lights flashing and all those things. We will begin the voting.
Mr Watson, Mr V V, hon members, please! I know I have been missing you for quite a long time in the House. Can you go back to your seats, please? We are voting now. You can only vote in your seat. You’ll consult later on. Let’s go.
We are now starting the voting. Those who are in favour press button four. Those against press button two. [Interjections.]
There are no cards? Those who don’t have cards just raise your hands. The staff will assist. Why did you leave your cards at home? [Interjections.] Oh! They remain here? Okay! Mr V V Z Windvoël, you have your card now?
Mr V V Z WINDVOËL: Not yet, sir.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Alright, can we just go the old normal route of voting then. Have you voted? You voted manually? If the results are ready the staff can then bring them to me. I am told you have not voted. Can you please vote? Those who agree press button four. Those who are against, button two. Those who abstain, press button three. Those who have no cards are allowed to vote manually. Who has not voted?
Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITIES AND PRIVILEGES AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Ms M P THEMBA: Chairperson, hon members, the ANC remains committed to ensuring that our laws respond to the particular challenges South Africa faces at any given time remain in line with domestic and international best practice and reflect the type of society we are seeking to build.
In particular, the Diplomatic Immunities and Privileges Amendment Bill does away with the additional requirement that all members of the family be issued with a diplomatic or officials passport, a requirement which is not recognised in many states.
However, members of the diplomat’s family, as defined, will continue to be recognised as having diplomatic immunity provided they meet the stipulated criteria.
This Bill also extends the definition of a member of a family so as to include even life partners. This is to bring the Act in line with South African law and practice which does not discriminate on the basis of marital status and allows for same-sex unions.
The Bill will also allow the Director-General of the Department of Foreign Affairs to issue a certificate to serve as prima facie evidence that the particular individual enjoys diplomatic immunity or privileges and does away with the current situation where such certificates can only be issued where questions regarding diplomatic privileges arise in court.
This simplifies the process and provides for consistency in the manner in which the Department of Foreign Affairs verifies diplomatic status of affected parties.
In addition to the above, this draft legislation also does away with a legislated once-a-year publication of the complete list of the persons entitled to diplomatic immunities and privileges and provides for this list to be made publicly available.
This will save the state money and also ensures that this list is easily accessible. As this Bill seeks to effect mostly technical amendments to the 2001 Act, there are a few critical issues for political consideration.
However, immunities and privileges contribute to the development of friendly relations among nations of the world, which is very important in promoting and consolidating South Africa’s position in an increasingly globalising world. I thank you, and I put this Bill before you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question. The question is that the Bill, Bill 55B of 2008, be agreed to. Let’s go straight to the voting. You know how to vote. Those who are in favour press button four and those who are against press button two and those who want to abstain press button three. Have all member voted?
Those who have no cards, remember, just raise your hands so that you are allowed to vote manually. Please don’t waste time. I’m about to adjourn this House now. Just vote quickly!
Can I please get the results from the Table? Mr Tau, you have not voted. Was it willingly or was it by mistake? Pardon?
Mr R J TAU: Chairperson, It’s by mistake. I have pressed.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Have you pressed? Do you want to vote? Should I give you a chance? Alright, let them give you a paper to vote manually. Therefore, there are 30 members who have voted. Tau is voting now. Thirty members have voted in favour.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I’m now told that the processes in the NA, where the President is going to speak, are about to start. Allow me to adjourn the House. We’ll reconvene at four o’clock. The House stands adjourned until four o’clock.
Business suspended at 14:22 and resumed at 16:18.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Please be seated. Hon members, we adjourned earlier on. Unfortunately, we were not informed then that the President was going to make a full statement in the National Assembly, but we are going to continue up until 16:55, so that the members can go and listen to the President at 17:00 and then we will come back. [Applause.]
COMPETITION AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Mr J M SIBIYA: Comrade Chairperson, members of the NCOP, colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, in its elaboration the ANC has stated that the skewed patterns of ownership and production, the spatial legacies of the apartheid past and the tendencies of the economy towards inequality, dualism and marginalisation will not recede automatically as economic growth accelerates. Therefore, decisive action is required to thoroughly and urgently transform the economic patterns of the present in order to realise our vision for the future. This includes addressing the monopoly domination of our economy, which remains an obstacle to the goals of economic transformation, growth and development.
This indicates that the ANC is actually concerned about uncompetitive behaviour that is corrosive to the growth of the economy. In the Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, the ANC argued that a national co-ordinating agency located in the implementing office of the RDP must ensure that the Public Works programme is based on the capital programmes at central, provincial and local levels, give priority to job creation and training, target the most marginalised sectors of society and, where possible, encourage the support of self- employment through small and medium enterprise creation to ensure sustainability of skills. Such programmes must not abuse labour standards or create unfair competitiveness within the sectors of the economy.
The Bill we are discussing this afternoon aims to correct the skewed and competitive behaviour we have just talked about. Therefore, the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs supports the Bill and invites this House to do the same. Thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): I shall now put the question in respect of the Fifth Order. The question is that the Bill be agreed to, subject to the proposed amendments. In accordance with Rule 63 I shall first allow political parties the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Any political party? There is none.
We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. Before I call the voting, please press button number one to confirm your presence. All members! Could all those members who do not have cards raise their hands? Could the staff assist members who do not have cards? Members will vote manually. Please press button number one. There should be lights flashing. Are the lights flashing? Those in favour, please press button number four, those against, press button number two and those who abstain, press button number three. Have all members voted?
If any of the members have mistakenly pressed the incorrect button, please press the correct button now. Voting is now closed. Will the Table staff submit the result?
Hon members, the results are as follows. But, firstly, I want to check with you, hon Tolo. Did you vote, because in terms of the records you have not voted?
Mr B J TOLO: I did vote, Chairperson. But if you want me to, I will do it again. I did vote. The problem is with your updated technology.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON ( Mrs M N Oliphant): Then you’ll have to vote manually.
Order, please! Hon members, 31 members have voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. [Applause.]
Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. NATIONAL ENERGY BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Mr D D GAMEDE: Chairperson, the National Energy Bill provides pre-emptive tools as it addresses the following: energy research; diversity of energy supply; energy infrastructure … [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): What is the point of order, hon Sogoni?
Mr E M SOGONI: Chairperson, I am sorry, but I would like to ask a question. Earlier, the Chairperson of the NCOP indicated that we were going to do statements now, and the Bill would follow later. That message was also conveyed to the chief director.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Hon Sogoni, you are out of order; could you please take your seat?
Mr D D GAMEDE: As I have already indicated, the National Energy Bill provides pre-emptive tools as it addresses the following: energy research; diversity of energy supply; energy infrastructure; planning; climate change mitigation and adaptation strategies; development of local energy production and the setting of standards and specifications. In the original draft Bill, chapter 3 catered for the establishment of the National Energy Modelling and Information Agency, Nemia. In the current version of the Bill, Nemia will no longer be established. Modelling functions and activities will be retained within the department.
In chapter 5 the SA National Energy Development Institute, Sanedi, will only perform energy efficiency and energy research and development functions. Renewable energy functions remain the terrain of the department.
Security of supply, which is dealt within chapter 6 and energy infrastructure, such as is dealt with in chapter 7, have been combined.
The changes stated above seek to minimise the proliferation of public entities and agencies and mitigate the duplication of functions. Therefore, the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs urges this Council to once more make history and adopt and support this Bill.
Debate concluded.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
MINERAL AND PETROLEUM RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Order disposed of without debate.
Question put: That the Bill be referred back to the committee.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Question accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS FROM PUBLICLY FINANCED RESEARCH AND
DEVELOPMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, in the Constitutional Court case of August 2002, the Minister of Health and Others the Treatment Action Campaign and Others, the Constitutional Court handed down a judgment on 5 July 2002. The case was about the mass roll-out of nevirapine, and our apex court ordered the government to immediately start the roll-out of the programme at all state health facilities.
One of the difficulties the Department of Health faced at the time was the high cost of acquiring these antiretrovirals, which are not manufactured locally. This led to another problem, where the principal manufacturer refused to license a South African pharmaceutical company to manufacture a generic version.
I’m giving the House a little background on the necessity of this particular Bill. This government spends a lot of money on research and development. At any given time, a large number of government departments are involved in or commissioning research and development to be done by both internal and external sources.
The question that arises is: Who does the intellectual property of that research belong to? One could say that this is what departmental policy and agreement between government and the research institution is for, but this could be found lacking in the absence of legislation that would make this issue very clear.
Currently, at the University of Cape Town, we have a huge HIV and Aids vaccine research project going on. Here we have the Department of Health, the Department of Education and the council of UCT involved, as well as some of the tenured and independent researchers, all working together and individually, to ensure that South Africa remains at the forefront of the quest to find a cure for HIV and Aids.
Once again, in the absence of legislation, questions could be asked on the merits of the decisions and the intellectual property rights of that particular research.
State-owned enterprise Denel is at any given time busy with research and development of military and defence mechanisms for South Africa and other countries, as well as the private security industry. The same would count for the Armaments Corporation of SA, the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research and others. Once again, should we raise the issue of intellectual property rights? Do state-owned enterprises have the right to use intellectual property accrued from public-funded research for their purpose alone?
When this Bill was introduced, we were made to understand that the aim of the Bill, inter alia, was to ensure that where public funds are used for research and development purposes, such research and development are utilised in the interests of the people of South Africa, first and foremost.
The Bill also lays the foundation for government to take charge of research commissioned by government, government departments, state-owned enterprises, institutions supporting constitutional democracy and all others. Further, in terms of this Bill, government must ensure that the people of South Africa benefit from these types of undertakings.
This afternoon this House will be asked to adopt the South African National Space Agency Bill. I would like to implore the House to ensure that South Africa would have a mechanism in place to ensure that this critical area, space research, remains here in our beloved country and that our people benefit from it. Otherwise we might now already give external institutions a lot of money to develop research which they would then sell back to us at a very high price. We urge all the members of this august House to support this Bill. Amandla! [Power to the people!]
Debate concluded.
Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
SOUTH AFRICAN NATIONAL SPACE AGENCY BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Thank you, Chairperson. Let me first take this opportunity, Chair and members – and you can see I am speaking in English - to congratulate one of our permanent members, hon Sicelo Shiceka, on his redeployment to the National Assembly.
To the hon Shiceka, we are saying congratulations Sukude, and this truly shows that Gauteng is a smart province indeed.
Sihlalo, kuyabonakala ukuthi amakhono akhona eGauteng yingakho-ke sebeba ngapha ngakithi nje, bayisa ngalena eNdlini Yesishayamathetho. Thina silahlekelwe kule Ndlu, kodwa-ke nokho akusenani. Sizomkhumbula ngamagalelo akhe kule Ndlu yezingwevu, sihlalo.
Phela bekwaziwa ukuthi uma ngabe yena noLunga, uKgoshi Mokoena benikwe ithuba lokubuza imibuzo, lokho bekusho ukuthi siyohlala kule Ndlu kuze kulamule ukushaya kwehora lesihlanu ntambama. Bebeke basine badedelane bebuza imibuzo bephindaphinda belandelana. Lokho-ke, Sihlalo kwenza ngibe nesiqiniseko sokuthi nakanjani naye uzosikhumbula kule Ndlu. Naye uzosikhumbula kakhulu impela, Sihlalo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Chairperson, it is evident that there is a variety of talent in Gauteng, and as a result they steal from us and redeploy to the National Assembly. We have suffered a loss in this House, but it does not matter. Here in the NCOP, Chairperson, we will remember him for his inputs.
It was common knowledge that when he and Lunga, Kgoshi Mokoena, were given an opportunity to ask questions, that meant that we would sit in this House until 5 o’clock in the afternoon. They used to repeatedly take turns in asking questions and in making follow-ups. That alone, Chairperson, makes me feel certain that he will also remember us in this House. He will really remember us in this House, Chairperson.]
With regard to this Bill, the South African National Space Agency Bill, it must be noted that the report was tabled in the ATCs and I am sure members have read the report and they will just give snippets of what the Bill’s intentions are.
Basically the Bill’s main objective is to provide for the promotion and use of space and co-operation in space in relation to matters regarding research, advanced scientific engineering through human capital and the creation of an environment for industrial development; and the establishment of a space agency that will assist and support the policy that the government has determined in relation to how we use our space.
The Bill also establishes an agency that will assist and oversee that the space that we have - well, I am not referring to this space but to the one up there in the sky - is not actually infringed upon by other forces, third forces that we may not know.
We must also note that South Africa is also part of the global world. So, time and again, there will be people who would want to take that advantage and want to encroach onto our space, including those who practise witchcraft who are said to be flying using teaspoons and brooms. We are also trying to regulate that they must also be careful when they fly at night, unseen.
So, this Bill, will actually assist in ensuring that there will be that regulation and that once the agency has been established there will be a board that will make sure that all the policies and the frameworks are abided by. With those few words we hereby request the House to adopt this Bill and agree with us that there should be no trafficking at night in our space. Thank you, Chair.
Debate concluded.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Thank you, hon member. That concludes the debate and I shall now put the question. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. In accordance with Rule 63 I shall first allow political parties to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. Hon members, order please.
I don’t want to mention you by name because some of you who are making a noise are those who didn’t vote. There should be lights flashing. Those in favour please press button number four, those against, press button number two and those who abstain, press button number three. Have all members voted? Members who have mistakenly pressed the incorrect button please press the correct one now. Voting is closed. Can I have the results? Hon members, the voting is as follows. All members present in the House have voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill agreed to in terms of section 75 of the Constitution.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): We will now go to the Eighth Order of the Day. I will therefore call upon hon R J Tau and next time the hon Acting Chief Whip must take the responsibility to make sure that all members are in the House.
LEGAL SUCCESSION TO THE SOUTH AFRICAN TRANSPORT SERVICES AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Mr R J TAU: Chairperson, without giving any explanation or whatever … [Interjections.] No! It has got nothing to do with the other House.
However, I want to put it to the House that, of course in my interaction with the Acting Chief Whip in relation to the Bill that we would be putting before us, the House should adopt the Bill as proposed and printed in the ATCs. It is a very straightforward Bill that basically seeks to restructure the public sector transportation in terms of rail, the division of Transnet and the role of the South African Rail Commuter Corporation. Thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): As was agreed previously, the business of the House is suspended. We will come back immediately after the President’s address.
Business suspended at 16:51 and resumed at 17:47.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon members, I thought hon Tau would be excited if I started with the select committee’s report. Hon members, I am informed that, pursuant to consultation with political parties represented in this Chamber, we are going to proceed with the Order as printed, but we are not going to have one debate on the two Bills before us. The one is the National Environmental Management: Integrated Coastal Management Bill and the other one, I think, is the Child Justice Bill.
On that note, I will call upon the Secretary to read … Hon Watson?
Mr A WATSON: You didn’t completely state the agreement. The agreement was that we would do that, but that the speakers will submit their speeches for Hansard and for Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports purposes. In other words, we have all prepared speeches; we won’t debate, but we will hand in our speeches.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): I wouldn’t have a problem with that, but they will have to make a ruling during the next sitting, because I am not certain about the procedural correctness of that. I thought that we only record what is said in the Chamber, but I will make a ruling on that. I don’t think it is a problem if members forward their speeches. Thank you very much for that, hon Watson. I will therefore call upon the Secretary to read the Eleventh and the Twelfth Orders of the day – the Eleventh Order of the day.
Hon Robinson, whilst you are poised to take the platform, I am informed that it is two Orders. There is one. Can I allow the Secretary to read them together? Yes.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE - CONVENTION BETWEEN RSA AND NETHERLANDS
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE - PROTOCOL AMENDING CONVENTION BETWEEN RSA AND NETHERLANDS
Ms D ROBINSON: Chairperson, I am pleased to speak in support of the amended double taxation protocol between the Republic of South Africa and the Kingdom of the Netherlands. I believe they add to South Africa’s already fairly comprehensive network of bilateral double taxation conventions and signal our firm commitment to expanding this network wherever possible. Government must work to strengthen this network even further, doing everything possible to ensure that South Africa is the destination of choice for foreign investment.
Chairperson, the objective of tax treaties, amongst others, is to facilitate cross-border trade and investment by eliminating the tax impediments of these cross-border flows. This is achieved by the elimination of double taxation, the prevention of fiscal evasion, and the elimination of discrimination against foreign nationals and nonresidents, all of which go a long way in presenting a hospitable environment for foreign investment, as well as protecting government’s revenue base.
These agreements help South African businesses as well as foreign businesses looking to invest here as they bring a measure of certainty and stability to their tax affairs. This convention will make clear the taxing rights of South Africa and the Netherlands on all forms of income arising from cross-border economic activities between our two countries.
Our businessmen and investors using the Netherlands as a source of finished products and technology will benefit from this agreement. Similarly, Dutch businesses looking for opportunity in South Africa will benefit.
Bilateral economic relations between our two countries will now be further strengthened by this avoidance of double taxation. I am confident that this agreement will further promote a greater cross-flow of trade, investment, technology and expertise between the two countries.
Our accession to this convention and to the protocol should be cause for cheer amongst the members since it brings a significantly better tax environment, for both Dutch and South African companies – a good day for economic and business expansion, indeed. I thank you.
Debate concluded.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Thank you, hon member. That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question in respect of the Eleventh Order. The question is that the report be agreed to. In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please insert their cards.
Before I call the voting, please press button one. I don’t see Gauteng’s head of delegation. There should be lights flashing and, if not, the Chamber staff will assist you. We now come to the voting. When I call the name of the province, the delegation head must vote by pressing button number four for those who vote in favour; button number two for those who vote against; and button number three for those who abstain. I will now call in alphabetic order upon the provinces.
Have all the provinces voted? If any of the members mistakenly pressed the incorrect button, please press the correct one now. Hon Watson?
Mr A WATSON: May I enquire about the formation of the two new provinces, because I see on my screen that 11 have voted. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Excuse me?
Mr A WATSON: I said, may I enquire about the formation of the two new provinces, because on my screen 11 provinces have voted.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Oh, yes. I will explain that. This technology is a learning curve for most of us and, at times, when I call Mpumalanga, you may find that there are three Mpumalanga people who pressed their buttons. It can automatically register, but I think that it is not really a big issue. We can live with that, hon member. Can we proceed? I won’t mention names of members who have voted.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report on Convention between RSA and Netherlands accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): I shall now put the question in respect of the Twelfth Order. The question is that the report be agreed to. In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please insert their cards. Before I call the voting, please press button one to confirm your presence.
I hope the lights are flashing. If not, you will be assisted. We now come to the voting. Hon Mokoena, can you take your seat. Hon member, can you take your seat. You are interfering with the decorum of the House, hon members. We now come to the voting. When I call the name of the province, the delegation head will vote by pressing button number four for those who vote in favour; button number two for those who vote against; and button number three for those who abstain.
Hon members, I am not sure whether I must disclose this. Maybe I should not. Just to confirm: as far as we are concerned, provincial Whips are still provincial Whips. There are no changes, and other members must not be in haste to take over. I won’t mention their names. [Laughter.]
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report on Protocol Amending Convention between RSA and Netherlands accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF JOINT CONSTITUIONAL REVIEW COMMITTEE IN TERMS OF SECTION 45 (1) (C) OF THE CONSTITUTION FOR 2007 DATED 20 JUNE 2008
Order disposed of without debate.
Question put: That the Report be adopted.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape. Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
NATIONAL ENVIRONMENTAL MANAGEMENT: INTEGRATED COASTAL MANAGEMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Order disposed of without debate.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): This is in accordance with the previous ruling where parties have agreed that they are not going to have a debate on the First and Second Order.
On that note, I shall now put the question in respect of the First Order. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the House.
In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. We shall now proceed to the voting in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please insert their cards. Before I call the voting, please press button number one to confirm your presence. There should be lights flashing. Are your lights flashing? Those whose lights are not flashing will call the attention of their service officers.
We now come to the voting and when I call the name of the province, the delegation head will vote by pressing button number four for those who vote in favour, button number two for those who vote against and button number three for those who abstain. I now call upon the provinces.
If any of the members have mistakenly pressed the incorrect button, they will be assisted by their service officers.
Voting is now closed and I call upon staff to submit the results.
Hon members, as we are dealing with section 76 matters before us, I’ve seen that in terms of the written confirmation from the North West Provincial Legislature, they don’t have the mandate. And I also note, in terms of our record to be taken, that North West has abstained from voting.
On that note, eight provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, Western Cape.
ABSTAINED: North West.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CHILD JUSTICE BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Reports thereon)
Order disposed of without debate.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon members, I must remind you, once more, we agreed that we are not going to have the debate. I shall now put the question. The question is that the Bill, subject to the proposed amendments, be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 75 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all political parties are present in the Chamber to cast their party’s votes. Are all political parties present?
I shall now also allow political parties the opportunity to make their declaration in terms of Rule 63, if they so wish. Is there any political party wishing to make any declaration of vote? There is obviously none.
We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. Before I call the voting, please press button number one to confirm your presence. There should be lights flashing. Are your lights flashing? Those whose lights are not flashing should call the attention of the service officers.
We now come to the voting. When I call the name of a political party those who vote in favour should press button number four, those who vote against should press button number two and those who abstain, button number three. Have all political parties voted? If any member has mistakenly pressed an incorrect button, please press the correct one now. If you encounter a problem, ask for a paper so that your vote is recorded manually.
The voting will now close and I’ll ask the staff to submit the results. All members voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill, subject to the proposed amendments, agreed to in terms of section 75 of the Constitution.
Bill, subject to the proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
The Council adjourned at 18:07. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
- Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent
(1) Bills passed by National Council of Provinces on 25 September
2008:
a) South African National Space Agency Bill [B 20B – 2008]
(National Assembly – sec 75).
b) Legal Succession to the South African Transport Services
Amendment Bill [B 43B – 2008] (National Assembly – sec 75).
c) National Energy Bill [B 52D – 2008] (National Assembly – sec
75).
d) Diplomatic Immunities and Privileges Amendment Bill [B 55B –
2008] (National Assembly – sec 75).
- Bill referred to Mediation Committee
(1) Bill, amended by National Assembly and rejected by National
Council of Provinces on 23 September 2008, referred to Mediation
Committee in terms of Joint Rule 186(2)(b):
(a) Mandating Procedures of Provinces Bill [B 8D – 2007]
(National Council of Provinces – sec 76(2)).
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
-
The Minister for the Public Service and Administration
a) Report and Financial Statements of Vote 27 – Department of Housing for 2007-2008, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 27 for 2007-2008 [RP 127-2008].
b) Report and Financial Statements of the Social Housing Foundation for 2007-2008, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2007-2008.
-
The Minister of Housing
a) Report and Financial Statements of Vote 27 – Department of Housing for 2007-2008, including the Report of the Auditor- General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 27 for 2007-2008 [RP 127-2008].
b) Report and Financial Statements of the Social Housing Foundation for 2007-2008, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2007-2008.
c) Report and Financial Statements of the Rural Housing Loan Fund for 2007-2008, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2007-2008.
(d) Report and Financial Statements of the National Urban
Reconstruction and Housing Agency (NURCHA) for 2007-2008,
including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
Statements for 2007-2008.
-
The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development
a) Report and Financial Statements of Vote 23 – Department of Justice and Constitutional Development for 2007-2008, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 23 for 2007-2008 [RP 232-2008].
-
The Minister of Minerals and Energy
a) Report and Financial Statements of the South African Nuclear Energy Corporation Limited (NECSA) for 2007-2008, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2007-2008 [RP 163-2008].
b) Report and Financial Statements of the National Nuclear Regulator (NNR) for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2006- 2007 [RP 36-2008].
c) Report and Financial Statements of the Mine Health and Safety Council for 2007-2008, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2007- 2008 [RP 46-2008].