National Council of Provinces - 19 June 2007
TUESDAY, 19 JUNE 2007 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
____
The Council met at 14:02.
House Chairperson Mr T S Setona took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
BOOK ON MPUMALANGA HISTORY AND HERITAGE LAUNCHED
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson. I wish to move this motion without notice:
That the Council –
(1) notes that the Mpumalanga province has arranged the launch of a book on the Mpumalanga history and heritage on 19 June 2007 at 14:00; and (2) further notes that members of the NCOP are invited to post- launch cocktails to take place at the Da Gama Diaz Room in the Arabella Sheraton Hotel at 17:00.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
COMRADES MARATHON AND DEATH OF TWO ATHLETES
(Draft Resolution)
Mr B J TOLO: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council –
1) notes -
(a) that the internationally acclaimed Comrades Marathon took
place on Sunday 17 June 2007;
(b) the importance of this event; and
(c) that this year two Comrades participants died of cardiac
failure at the end;
2) conveys its condolences to the bereaved families; and
(3) wishes them strength in these trying times. Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
BAFANA BAFANA CONGRATULATED ON QUALIFYING FOR AFRICA CUP OF NATIONS
(Draft Resolution)
Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Thank you, House Chair. I hereby move without notice:
That the Council congratulates Bafana Bafana on qualifying for the Africa Cup of Nations which will be held in 2008.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CAR ACCIDENTS INVOLVING LEARNERS
(Draft Resolution)
Nksz B N DLULANE: Mphathisihlalo, ndenza isindululo ngaphandle kokunika isaziso:
Sokuba eli Bhunga –
1) liqaphele ukuba, emva nje kweeveki ezintathu, kwakhona abantwana
besikolo kwiilali zaseMount Frere baphinde bafumana ingozi yemoto
baze bonzakala ngexa bebesiya esikolweni;
2) liqaphele ukuba iminyaka yaba bantwana iphakathi kwemine ukuya
kutsho kwelishumi elinanye;
(3) livakalise uvelwano lwalo ngokuthi xa kanye sijonge ukulwa ukuxhatshazwa ngokwesondo nokungaphatheki kakuhle emakhaya kwabantwana abasaze ngobuso ezweni, baya phinda bayonzakala, inyangana nje inye emva kwesiganeko esifanayo; kwaye
(4) livakalise uvelwano kwizihlobo nezalamane zabo ngelithi: “Akuhlanga lungehlanga, Mpuma Koloni.” (Translation of isiXhosa draft resolution follows.)
[Ms B N DLULANE: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council –
1) notes that just three weeks after a car accident involving
learners, another accident involving learners from the village of
Mount Frere who were on their way to school took place and they
were injured;
2) notes that these children are between the ages of four and eleven;
3) expresses its sadness at having to deal with this less than a month
after the first accident occurred and that at a time when the
nation is concerned about the abuse of children at home;
(4) expresses its deepest condolences to their relatives and friends and the entire Eastern Cape.]
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Is there any further motion without notice? Hon members, my attention is drawn to the member who raises his or her hand. Hon Tolo, it is unacceptable. That member is busy smiling with the hon Themba there. They are mentioning his name. For me, he is not interested in moving the motion. Do you have a motion without notice?
SPRINGBOKS CONGRATULATED ON THEIR VICTORY IN RUGBY MATCH THAT TOOK PLACE OVER WEEKEND
(Draft Resolution)
Mnr M A SULLIMAN: Voorsitter, ek stel sonder kennisgewing voor:
Dat hierdie Raad -
(1) kennis neem van die feit dat die Springbokke oor die naweek goed gevaar het in hulle wedstryd; en (2) hulle alle voorspoed en sterkte toewens vir die komende naweek se wedstryd. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)
[Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council –
(1) notes that the Springbok played a good game of rugby over the weekend; and
(2) wishes them all the best for the match this weekend.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
MOTION OF CONDOLENCE
(The late Prince N E Zulu)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N OLIPHANT): Sihlalo, ngiphakamisa ngaphandle kwesaziso ukuthi:
Lo Mkhandlu –
1) uzwakalisa ukuphatheka kabi nokudumala ngokushiywa ngokuzunywa
umhlonishwa uMntwana uNhlanhla Zulu obeyiLungu lePhalamende Endlini
Yomkhandlu Kazwelonke;
2) udlulisa ukuzwelana kwawo nomndeni wakhe kanye namalungu e-IFP;
futhi
(3) uthi mabalale ngenxeba. (Translation of isiZulu motion of condolence follows.)
[Mrs M N OLIPHANT: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council –
1) expresses its dismay and sadness at the unexpected passing away of
Prince Nhlanhla Zulu who was a member of the National Assembly;
2) conveys its heartfelt condolences to the family and the members of
the IFP; and
(3) asks them to accept what has happened as fate.]
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES – TAKING
PARLIAMENT TO THE PEOPLE, GAUTENG, 12-16 MARCH 2007
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Thank you, House Chairperson. House Chairperson, hon members, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for affording me the opportunity to open the debate on the report of our visit to Gauteng in March this year as part of the programme of Taking Parliament to the People.
In opening this afternoon’s debate, I would like to draw your attention to the significance of locating this programme within our broader programme, that is Programme 2009. This is important because at the end of this term we must, in the form of a report, point out the work we have done towards achieving the targets we have set out in Programme 2009.
Importantly, Programme 2009 is as a result of a consultation process with the provinces whereby presiding officers at the beginning of this third Parliament held sessions with premiers of our provinces to establish their expectations of the work of the NCOP until 2009.
The result was a document that attempted to speak to those issues raised by provinces, the Programme 2009 document. The implementation of Programme 2009, then called “Vision 2009”, was also supported by representatives of the leadership of our legislatures at the first workshop on programming we held during this term.
Hon members, I am reminding you about this to show that we are on course in terms of implementing Programme 2009. A recent example of this implementation is the summit on intergovernmental relations and co- operative governance we held last month, where our confidence assisted us in the beginning to leave a legacy for future leaders and members of this House.
As we continue to implement this programme, we continue to review our priorities so that we are able to respond to the expectations of our electorate. This year, again, we have looked at these priorities and identified clearly what we need to do with regard to conducting oversight and following up on the work we do with provinces and local government, especially through this programme of Taking Parliament to the People. Soon we will bring those revised priorities for consideration by this House, but we have already interacted with the Whippery and the committee chairpersons.
Julius Caesar once said, “We came, we saw, we conquered.” Caesar used the phrase to describe his victory over Pharnaces II of Pontus in the Battle of Zela. This phrase is relevant to us today because we are engaged in a battle to make the lives of our people better.
Caesar said these words after he defeated Pharnaces II in the Battle of Zela that lasted for five days. We also spent five days at Sebokeng, Gauteng, trying to understand people’s views with regard to service delivery. Caesar said these words in a message that he sent to the Roman Senate which was the council of the Roman Empire. Today we discuss this report in the National Council of Provinces of South Africa. In this report we are saying to the people of South Africa that we went to Gauteng and we saw, we heard and we felt the living conditions of the people there.
We went to Gauteng because facilitating public participation is at the core of our work. Public participation has been defined as a process leading to a joint effort by stakeholders representing all relevant interests and sectors of society, technical specialists and various relevant organs of state that work together to produce better decisions than if they had acted independently, and better implementation of decisions through stakeholders owning the process.
That is why we took Parliament to Gauteng to engage with other stakeholders in this programme, the Gauteng province and its people. Public participation is the key to ensuring that government understands the needs of the people and makes decisions that will meet those in the best possible way.
There is no better possible way than to go to the people and see and listen and feel and be part of their daily struggles. Once the stakeholders are on board, the next step is the identification of problems and needs through consultation. Through interactive dialogue, the public participation should lead to consensus-building and a convergence of thinking amongst the stakeholders and ultimately shared solutions.
Now that we have engaged in dialogues with the people of Gauteng and stakeholders are on board, the next logical step is to forge ways for the desired solutions. We do this because the Constitution strategically placed us as the NCOP in our intergovernmental relations system to perform this task or mandate.
The Constitution says “all spheres of government” - that is national, provincial and local - have to make it easy for people to participate in government. However, government alone cannot build a better life. As such, the communities and all stakeholders have to be partners of government. So, it is us, the voice of the people, who must encourage people to participate in government programmes.
Hon members should remember that the Constitution provides in section 72(1) that the National Council of Provinces must facilitate public involvement in the legislative and other processes of the Council and its committees, conduct its business in an open manner and hold its sittings and those of its committees in public.
The Taking Parliament to the People programme underscores the importance of people’s involvement in their own governance. It communicates a clear message to our people that nothing about them can ever be done without their presence and full participation. This public participation exercise also equips MPs with the information they need to interact with the executive to draft questions for plenaries and to participate in debates on different matters pertaining to service delivery. This is exactly what we intend to do, as this report will attest to.
The question, therefore, should be: Now that we have undertaken this public participation exercise as mandated by the Constitution, what is next? As part of our constitutional mandate of oversight, we must do a follow-up on this visit. Members will also recall that oversight is a critical element in terms of our mandate. The report itself leaves no doubt that we have to do the follow-up. This is contained in almost all recommendations made with regard to the site visits that we undertook.
As public representatives we are legally compelled to execute this mandate. We must not forget that the mandate is an authoritative command or instruction by the electorate to its representatives. This implies that Parliament must always report back to its electorate and that is why there must be follow-up visits for every Taking Parliament to the People programme activity.
The Taking Parliament to the People and follow-up visits as an integrated programme bode well with what we stated in our Programme 2009 document:
The NCOP must closely monitor the programmes announced by the President in his state of the nation address to the third Parliament, and in each annual address up to the end of the term, in order to be able to meaningfully assist in the process of accelerating service delivery. Towards this end, our committees will pull out the specific issues the President raised, engage with them, and draw up detailed plans and specific programmes for oversight work so that we can monitor implementation.
In doing this, we must also remember the targets of Programme 2009, which are: firstly, the promotion of public participation with a clear impact on delivery and the work of Parliament; secondly, to improve support to local government through closely monitoring government programmes at municipal level; thirdly, to increase oversight work that is guided by input from provinces and local government regarding their needs and interests; and fourthly, to improve intergovernmental relations as a result of the NCOP’s sustained contribution to building the system of co-operative government.
There are, of course, specific issues raised in the report and, in some cases, proposed action. We need to carefully study this and ensure that we devise ways and means to follow them up.
Let me make a comparison to Caesar again. Whilst Caesar’s battle ended once and for all in five days ours is a never-ending battle. It is an ongoing battle to make the lives of our people better. Members have to understand that parliamentary oversight of the executive is not an end in itself. It is a means to an end, which is the implementation of the policies by the executive. When we embark on oversight through the various committees, we must always remember that oversight is essential to fulfilment of the values of accountability, responsiveness and openness enshrined in the Constitution.
In conclusion, I have to say that when we finish debating this report, we must be able to say to the people of Gauteng, “We came, we saw, we heard, and we will act.” I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]
Mr S SHICEKA: House Chairperson, colleagues, special delegates, the province has given us a mandate to say thank you for visiting this smart province. We thank you because you managed to ensure that some areas and issues that are of importance to the province are highlighted. We thank you because you have managed to touch on areas that the province has not managed to touch on. The people have managed to raise issues freely and openly so that the province is able to ensure that those matters are taken up. I will talk about these issues later.
Let me talk about our approach as a province. The province believes in an integrated and holistic approach to service development and delivery. That’s the belief of the province. That’s how we are smart as the province. We also believe that the province will be able to make its contribution in terms of ensuring that a nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and prosperous South Africa is built in our lifetime. We also believe that the province wants to contribute 8% growth in 2010.
The province has managed to develop infrastructure in that respect, what we call the Blue IQ. This Blue IQ infrastructure comprises the Cradle of Humankind, which is on the West Rand. That’s where we believe that human beings started to develop.
We have developed the Johannesburg Newtown cultural precinct where we believe that that part of Johannesburg must be a beacon of hope in terms of the culture of our people. As all of you know, Gauteng is the most cosmopolitan area in South Africa. We are also developing a City Deep port, which is the biggest port in South Africa - a dry port that is inland.
Amongst other projects, we have the OR Tambo International Airport export processing zone where we believe that that area must be a hub of economic activity. We have also developed the Wattville industrial area. Wattville is on the East Rand, which is called Ekurhuleni today. Ekurhuleni contributes 40% of industrial development in South Africa. That area was declining; now we believe that we are intervening as the province to ensure that the area that creates the most jobs is developed.
We are also developing an area in Tshwane called the Innovation Hub. This Innovation Hub is based on developing small businesses in terms of IT. We believe, as the province, we must be able to develop these areas so that the province really stands up to its name of being a smart province.
We are also involved in one of the key infrastructure projects, popularly known as the Gautrain. We are not only involved with the Gautrain, but we are also involved in what is called the “Gauteng Enterprise Propeller”. The Gauteng Enterprise Propeller is aimed at ensuring that small and medium enterprises are harnessed, guided, mentored and developed. [Interjections.]
Mr A WATSON: I have a point of order, Chair. We understand that the speaker hasn’t prepared properly, but the subject for the discussion is the visit to Gauteng: Taking Parliament to the People, and not the promotion of the province for the next show that is coming. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon Watson, will you take your seat. Continue, hon member. [Laughter.]
Mr S SHICEKA: Then, Chair, on this aspect of the Gauteng Enterprise Propeller, we are harnessing these businesses because we believe that jobs are created from small businesses. That’s what international wisdom is saying on those issues.
These areas I raised are backing our view that says that we are going to ensure that we contribute, not by word of mouth, but by our actions on the 8% growth in 2010. I am saying we are providing resources in that respect to develop the province.
Having said that, as you have seen when we visited that province, one of the fundamental issues that was raised was the quality of education, particularly for the African child. That is still a challenge in the province. We have also heard about the issue of scholar transport which is still a challenge that needs to be dealt with.
As all of you know, there was a strike in the province on this issue by bus transport companies to show that our pupils were being taken up on these issues.
The other issue that has been raised here is the issue of cross-boundary education, where particularly people from Mpumalanga - kids, learners - are coming to Gauteng. The two MECs must meet together to ensure that they deal with this issue in a way that is satisfactory to everyone concerned.
With regard to crime, 50% of crime in South Africa is committed in Gauteng. And, we believe, that this matter is a matter that we need to tackle head- on. We have developed the Gauteng safety strategy for all to deal with this matter.
When we were in Sebokeng, people raised an issue around the functionality of the community policing forums. We have taken note of that. The province has committed itself to ensuring that it deals with the issue of the involvement of the people in ensuring that the issues of crime are dealt with. As you know, we have also developed patroller committees to ensure that they assist the police to combat crime and to ensure that crime is prevented. That’s what is happening.
With regard to local government, the issue of ward committees was raised, namely that the ward committees are in place. However, the challenge is that these ward committees are nonfunctional. We have committed ourselves to putting in resources to ensure that these committees are supported and resourced to be able to contribute to the development of our communities.
The issue that has been raised on health is about access to health, in that you find that some clinics don’t have medicine and some clinics don’t even have staff. The province has committed itself by developing a strategy called “Health for All” to ensure that we overcome these challenges and deal with them. We believe that what is important with regard to health is that we develop a healthy lifestyle so that we deal with health not only in a curative way, but also in a preventative way. And, we are dealing with that as a province.
However, I want to raise an issue that the province has said that I should put across in this House, namely that the Taking Parliament to the People campaign needs to be reviewed. We need to review it in order to check what the areas are that need to be improved. We cannot continue as yesterday, today. We must look at what needs to be done to make this process better. We hope that this discussion will help to ensure that this matter is addressed.
I want to conclude by saying that with regard to the follow-up visits, the province has said that it is prepared to co-operate with the NCOP when we go to the province. However, there is a catch. The catch is that when you go to the province you must consult with the province. You must work with the province in a co-operative spirit. In that way, we will open our arms as a province and welcome you when you come to our area, so that those issues that you raised are dealt with and covered. So, that chapter is closed. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]
Mr A WATSON: Hon Chairperson, let me start by saying that I make no apology for referring to you as “hon Chairperson” because regardless of your position as House Chairperson, when you are sitting on that chair, you chair this House and you are the hon Chairperson. I will continue to address you in that way.
The subject before us is Taking Parliament to the People. I just want to deviate a little bit from my notes, in the first place, to apologise on behalf of the Whip of the DA, Ms Juanita Terblanche, who was supposed to speak in this debate, but the flu that sent her home last week has turned into full-scale pneumonia and she is actually very sick. So I give her apology.
I also want briefly to refer to what the hon Shiceka said. I have nothing to say to Ms Oliphant because her speech was terrific. There is just a small point that I will refer to later on, but it is nice to have time to reflect also on the other speakers.
I was really not surprised when the phone rang in the hon Shiceka’s pocket, because I am convinced that it was the Premier who phoned him to say: “Stop talking nonsense.” [Laughter.] This is because where on earth can you get a member from a province standing at this podium and thanking the NCOP that goes to a province once in five years … [Interjections.] If he knows his Rules …
Mr E M SOGONI: I have a point of order, Chairperson. What the hon member is raising, he knows, is wrong. He can’t say the premier would phone Mr Shiceka.
Mr A WATSON: I said I was sure. I didn’t say it was … [Inaudible.]
Mr E M SOGONI: You said you are sure.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): What is the point of order, hon Sogoni?
Mr A WATSON: I said I am sure that it was the Premier …
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Can I take a point of order? What is the point of order?
Mr E M SOGONI: I am saying he must not say something that he knows is not true about the Premier of the province. [Interjections.]
Mr A WATSON: That is not a point of order, Chair, with all due respect.
Mr E M SOGONI: You are misleading the House.
Mr A WATSON: I am not misleading the House; not like Mr Tau did the day before yesterday.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Can you continue, hon member?
Mr A WATSON: Can I start again by saying that I think it was the Premier – I’m sure it was the Premier; I am confident it was the Premier - phoning Mr Shiceka to ask him to stop saying that this NCOP which goes to Gauteng, maybe once in five years, has uncovered and touched on areas when the people in the province are there every day of their lives, and there are areas which the province has not touched on yet. Those were his own words. I think you may be in trouble when you get home. [Laughter.]
In terms of the visit to Gauteng, let me start off by saying that in broad terms I agree with the last part of the hon Shiceka’s speech when he said that we must look at these things again. But I will come back to that. I think the organisation of the Gauteng visit was excellent - the accommodation, the venue, the arrangements at the venue, and transport to and from the venue. I want to applaud those who made the arrangements. [Applause.]
Two weeks ago in the debate on Parliament, I was totally misunderstood as usual, just as the hon Tau misunderstood my sincere wish to say that I apologise for apartheid and added 17 … [Inaudible.] … but I forgive him. The Chief Whip was also … [Interjections.]
Mr S SHICEKA: Chair, I think the reference to last week’s apology has nothing to do with this debate. I thank you very much.
Mr A WATSON: Just as much as that propeller of yours, your Gautrain and everything else!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon Watson, it is I who will make a ruling on his issue. I will reserve a ruling on this matter. Mr R J TAU: Hon Chair, I just want to check if it is in order for a member to make reference to what was said in a previous debate. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon Tau, I am saying precisely that I will reserve a ruling on that matter.
Mr R J TAU: I am worried that I might not be given an opportunity to respond to some of the allegations that the member is making, because I am not in this particular debate.
Mr A WATSON: Did you give me the opportunity?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon Tau, I said I will come back and make a ruling on this matter.
Mr A WATSON: I respect your ruling, Chair. I said that I was misunderstood when I referred in sincerity to criticisms of past efforts of Taking Parliament to the People on the way in which these were done. We will not stop criticising because you will remember, when we went to Mpumalanga, the DA was chastised and nearly killed for issuing a statement in my name, criticising the fact that we stayed in Gauteng while visiting Mpumalanga.
Thankfully, the whole of the Mpumalanga province joined us on that one and you will never do it again. I am sure you have learnt that lesson. We will carry on criticising. [Interjections.] The topic is “Taking Parliament to the People”. [Interjections.] I apologise to that member. I am speaking in English. [Interjections.] Is it right for the member to address me like that, Chair? [Interjections.] Not you, me.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon member, can you continue. [Interjections.]
Mr A WATSON: Not you, me! [Laughter.] I said that in our efforts to criticise that which was wrong, it was portrayed as if we were dead against oversight, as if we were dead against visiting provinces, and as if we were dead against those people who have that once-in-a-lifetime chance of interacting with Parliament. We are not. Let me say emphatically that I am very proud of being part of the group that wrote the Constitution in the first term of Parliament in this country – in the free South Africa.
I am very proud of that, and of the whole Constitution. That Constitution says, and as Ms Oliphant said, oversight is one of our prime jobs. It also says that this House has the right to take Parliament to another venue. We don’t object to that, but in doing that some problems have arisen. We pointed to some and then our words were turned around.
Let me try again and tell you that there are a number of problems I wanted to highlight today, if somebody doesn’t steal the last three minutes at my disposal. The first problem is the noninvolvement of a third of this House from the start of the planning to the end of the Taking Parliament to People visits twice a year. We are only 56 members; 18 of those members are not ANC members. But we never get consulted before the time; we don’t know where you are going; and it is given to us like a class of Standard 6 pupils. At the end of the day, we are just fed into the system.
Secondly, the involvement of other parties in the programme at the event is nonexistent. People get tired and wander around – and not just the opposition, Chairperson. Your own members start wandering around and getting disillusioned with just sitting there and having no role to play. At least one or two ANC members get to be part of the process. [Interjections.] I am ashamed to say … [Interjections.] Would that member please … Would you please protect me against this one member who just cannot contain herself?
The highlight of my visit to Gauteng, personally, was the involvement with the Deputy Chairperson in a disciplinary committee. I am ashamed to say that, but that is the only part I played in that whole week - I, Dr Van Heerden and Kgoshi Mokoena. Kgoshi Mokoena had other roles to play. We should be involved in the planning, in the execution of Taking Parliament to the People and we should be interacting just like everybody else is interacting. We have that right because we have been elected by the people of this country, and we are not the slaves of the ANC. [Interjections.]
The hon Oliphant quoted Caesar and she said: “I came, I saw, I conquered.” In Latin, by the way, that is “Veni, vidi, vici”. But whilst she and we are in the mode of quoting, let me also quote something: In the days of Charles I when he was King of England, and overruled everybody, there was a man called Oliver Cromwell. Oliver Cromwell stood up and said: “The king is not England and England is not the king.” Let me stand here today, hundreds of years later, and say to you that the NCOP is not the ANC and the ANC is not the NCOP. I thank you. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Ms B TUNYISWA (Eastern Cape): Hon Chairperson, hon members, officials and everybody present, this session is held at a time whilst we are still commemorating the Soweto uprisings and 30 years after the death of Steve Biko who died in 1977. The Eastern Cape delegation felt honoured and humbled to be part of the NCOP event in Gauteng. It was a real eye-opener as we observed that we are truly striving for a non-racial, united and non- sexist South Africa. It was also both exciting and interesting listening to people practically exercising their freedom of expression. Whether some of those statements made were unfounded or not is another matter, but the fact of the matter is that they found themselves expressing whatever they wanted to say.
As the Eastern Cape, we have also observed that although Gauteng as a province has made strides in terms of development and addressing the basic needs of its people, they are just like other provinces as they are also faced with the following issues: access to water; access to sanitation and electricity; lack of transport; HIV/Aids; unemployment; municipal boundaries, etc.
As the Eastern Cape, we wish to talk about and debate some of the recommendations that were made, particularly by the Gauteng province. As the province, we agreed with the observations made by the Gauteng premier that provinces are not allocated sufficient time to process section 76 Bills and develop proper mandates, as Ministers prefer to introduce Bills in the NA instead of the NCOP. He further proposed that more Bills be introduced in the NCOP to ensure that its role remains relevant.
Hayi, sithi siyavumelana nalo mbono. [We are saying that we agree with that view.]
We would also love to share with this House what we saw when we visited one of the centres, especially the one called Bongani Daycare Centre, and its challenges. As the province we wish to reiterate the fact that the Select Committee on Public Works should conduct a follow-up visit to the centre to monitor the following: the completion of the project; funding of that project; community and municipality involvement; the transfer of technical skills; and the alleged exploitation of young people in that project.
The second visit that we would like to share with the House is the visit to the school called the J W Luckhoff High School. As you know, some of us were there in this reformatory school, which enrols learners who have behavioural problems and those who are in need of care because their parents are not able to respond to their needs.
What we are saying as a province is that children placed at such schools become the sole responsibility of the state, particularly the Department of Education. This arrangement should be reviewed as this should not be this department’s responsibility alone and that a cluster approach is needed. You need the role that should be played by the Departments of Social Development, Justice and Constitutional Development, Correctional Services, Labour, and local government departments, etc.
As we know, the hon Minister Stofile, in that event - that is Taking Parliament to the People - reiterated that the objective of engagements such as this event is not about finding immediate solutions to issues raised; instead it is about gathering information about issues faced by the electorate so as to enable government to plan according to public needs.
Kodwa sithi noko siyiMpuma Koloni … [But we are saying as the Eastern Cape …]
… as we celebrate 31 years of the youth uprisings, we urge government to increase the pace in ensuring that issues that were raised in Gauteng around youth, like the inaccessibility of the Umsobomvu Youth Fund, the lack of employment opportunities and crime, are no longer issues of information gathering, but are mainstreamed in government programmes.
Kudala noko sikhangela le nto, sisenza uphando, makhe side similisele iziphumo zophando ngoku [It has been a long time since we have done some policy research; it is time to implement our findings now.]
We also concur with the observation made by the Minister in the Presidency that participants like women, youth, the disabled, the elderly and children generally did not raise fundamental objections with the content of government policy. Instead, the problem lies with the implementation of existing policies and the lack of communication regarding the content of such policies. Ngumceli mngeni lowo. [That is a challenge.]
In conclusion, we commend the Gauteng legislature for showing us that we need not abdicate our responsibilities of public participation to local municipalities by ensuring that it is the responsibility of each constituency to mobilise people.
Siyafuna ukuyigxininisa into yokuba … [We want to emphasise the fact that …
… we always arrange with your local municipalities to bus the people to Parliament. So we have learnt that in Gauteng there is direct contact between the constituency and the parliament, and we have learnt a lot from that.
Siyavuya ke ukuba iGauteng … [We are happy that Gauteng … has already moved on some of the issues that were raised in that event.]
It is interesting to note that some organisations can even detect who is phoning who and when. [Laughter.] We really confirm what was said by the Chairperson of the NCOP, the hon Mahlangu, that the NCOP is the only institution that has a mandate to take these three spheres of government under one roof, and indeed …
… kwajulwa ngengxoxo phaya; batsho abantu baziva izingqi zePalamente phakathi kwabo. Siyabulela. [… the debate was deepened there; then people could feel the rhythm of Parliament in their midst.] We thank you.] [Applause.]
Mnu M A MZIZI: Sihlalo nozakwethu, kukhona into eyodwa nje engifisa ukuyisho, ukube bekungenjalo bengingeke ngize ngikhulume. Nansi into engifisa ukuyisho-ke: uMnu uWatson ucishe washaya emhlolweni uma ethi i- NCOP lena akusiyona eye-ANC kanti futhi ne-ANC akusiyona eye-NCOP.
Kunjalo impela, i-NCOP lena akusiyona eyezinhlangano zezepolitiki, kepha i- NCOP wuMkhandlu omele zonke izifundazwe. Ngakho-ke uma ngithi bengingeke ngikhulume, ngiqonde ukuthi uzakwethu ovela eGauteng ubesekhulumile, futhi wanibonga nina nonke enabamba iqhaza kulokhu okwakwenziwa eGauteng. Ngakho- ke uma nani futhi nisukuma nibonga, siyabonga siyanconcoza.
Nakhu-ke kodwa lapho silahlakelwa khona uma siyisa iPhalamende kubantu. Mhlawumbe isizathu sokuthi abantu babe nokuthandabuza nje yingoba kuleliya Phalamende layizolo besingamazi oyiLungu lePhalamende nongelona futhi besingazi nokuthi kuxoxwani ePhalamende. Besinabameli ababesimele lapha ePhalamende esasingazange sike sihlangane nabo. Kwakushintshwa amagama. Sasiyibizwa ngawo onke amagama angcolile lawa kuthiwe singa ma-naturele, ama-natives. Nalowo muntu okwakuthiwa usimele akakaze axoxe nathi, futhi wayengakaze alethe iPhalamende kithina. Ngakho-ke kulabo bantu abangakaze babe nenhlanhla yokuba sePhalamende phambili, mabajabule bathokoze ngoba balibonile iPhalamende liza kubona.
Yingakho-ke namhlanje ngithi nje benginasifiso sokukhuluma kodwa ngilindele ukuthi nina nikhulume nisitshele amaphutha ethu laphaya eGauteng, nisho nokuthi silungise kuphi thina njengabantu baseGauteng. Kodwa-ke uma sekukhulunywa ngezinye izifundazwe, nami sengiyophawula ngithi ngisho ngithi niyabona-ke, nasalela lapha nalaphaya. Okwamanje angikwazi ukulubona ugongolo olusesweni lami.
Usekhulumile uzakwethu. Ngakho-ke ngiyanibonga ngokusincoma kwenu nangokufika kwenu esifundazweni sethu. [Ihlombe]. Nina bangasenhla! (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)
[Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson and colleagues, I have one thing to mention, and were it not for that, I wouldn’t speak. And this is my story: Hon Watson nearly hit the nail on the head when he said that the NCOP is not for the ANC and the ANC is also not for the NCOP.
Indeed, the NCOP does not belong to the political parties, but instead, it is the Council that is representing all the provinces. Therefore, the reason for my saying I would not have wanted to speak is that my colleague from Gauteng has already spoken. He thanked all of you who took part in what was happening in Gauteng. Therefore, if you stand up and express your gratitude, we are very grateful.
But we seem to be missing something when we take Parliament to the people. Maybe the reason for people being doubtful about this initiative is that during the previous regime we did not know who was a Member of Parliament and who was not. We also did not even know what was discussed in Parliament. We had people who we had never met before claiming to represent us here in Parliament. We were constantly called names. We were called natives and all other derogatory names and the person who claimed to represent our interests never spoke to us, and did not even take the Parliament to us. I am therefore saying to those people who had never seen Parliament before to be joyful, for they have now seen the Parliament coming to them.
That is why I say today that I had no intention of saying anything, because I simply wanted you to speak up and tell us where we went wrong in Gauteng, and what is it that we as people from Gauteng need to make right. But when the time comes for us to look at other provinces, then I will use my speaking opportunity and say: You see, you lack here and there. And as yet, I cannot see the beam in my eye.
My colleague has spoken. And I thank you for praising us and also for visiting our province. [Applause.] To me, you are all of royal households!]
Mr S N SIKHOSANA (Mpumalanga): Hon Chair, hon members from different legislatures, hon members of the NCOP, good afternoon. On Saturday, 16 June, South Africans throughout the breadth and length of our country commemorated a unique epoch in the history of our liberation struggle.
The reason for the waging of that brave struggle was to resist the imposition of Afrikaans as the medium of instruction in an education system that was without the involvement of the majority of our people; an education system that was predicated on the false and simplistic notion of apartheid and racial parliamentary philosophy against the will of the people.
The predatory state reacted to the defenceless students in a manner that automatically illustrated the enormity of the decisions that were made to perpetuate the apartheid dream.
Our youth of the generation bravely resisted the gruesome killings unleashed by the apartheid state. Many of the survivors of this brutal treatment by the state crossed from home to the unknown into political exile.
The narrative I am putting forward in the introduction of my speech aims at creating space for political education with regard to the liberation struggle, whose triumph we celebrate today. We must remind our schoolchildren about how far we have come and the high price at which this freedom was attained.
The debate on Taking Parliament to the People this year takes place under a different set of conditions, marked by industrial action that is life- threatening and that further increases the denial of the right to education to the already underprivileged and disadvantaged of our children. We want to make an appeal in this input to our patriotic, committed servants of the people to attend to essential health services and save lives that might be lost forever.
I am quite sure that the provincial government of Gauteng will attend to all the issues raised by the people in March, especially in relation to health issues. We also call upon our government to do all in its power within the Labour Relations Act collective bargaining framework to avert further escalations of the already ravaging strike action. The strike cannot be drawn out further.
We also welcome the proactive and decisive leadership of the Council of Ministers of Education in their forward planning on how to catch up with the lost time that has been experienced by the Department of Education during the strike.
The plight of our people and challenges raised during the visit to Gauteng cannot be resolved urgently as long as the industrial strike continues. We cannot therefore postpone the challenges faced by our people in Sebokeng. We must together, as provincial government and the NCOP, continue the good work of oversight of provincial government.
We are standing in front of this august House today to give a practical expression to the complex notion of Taking Parliament to the People in order that we can deepen the debate as a nation. A democratic intervention of “Masijule Ngengxoxo Mzansi” [“Let’s deepen the debate, South Africa”] is most welcomed by the Mpumalanga provincial legislature, and I’ve already aligned our annual theme to this national initiative. The province adopted a theme that seeks to give practical meaning to your theme and it reads as follows “Expand public involvement, deepen democracy”.
Taking Parliament to the people has borne fruit in the evolution of democracy in South Africa, and is even more relevant than when this excellent idea was first conceived, and fits well within the strategic constitutional role and place occupied by the NCOP within our institutional government framework.
In my speech on the occasion of the budget and policy debate in our provincial legislature, I made a point with regard to access to the most important human rights issue, the right to education, as enshrined in Chapter 2 of the supreme law of the land. I am going to quote the Constitution to underline the point, when it says,
- (1) Everyone has the right – (a) to a basic education, including adult basic education; and (b) to further education, which the state, through reasonable measures, must make progressively available and accessible.
The report of the NCOP “Taking Parliament to the People” makes an observation with regard to these very important rights and it reflected specific areas where the people are being denied educational rights and, consequently, other civil liberties and freedoms which they are entitled to by the Constitution.
The right to education serves as what I call a “prelude right” that provides an enabling environment and capable citizens for so many other rights to be enjoyed. For example, the Bill of Rights gives the right of access to information. This right, though enshrined in the supreme law of the land, in practice might not be enjoyed owing to a lack of access to the “prelude right” to education.
Schools that are characterised by poverty and a huge legacy of underdevelopment, such as those in the remote areas of our farm communities in Gauteng, require measures such as scholar transport, feeding schemes and good physical infrastructure.
The important matter of no-fee schools arose in the evolutionary process of our education system and policy. All doors to learning shall be open to all, and today we can assert with confidence that indeed the ideals of our political blueprint, the Freedom Charter, are bearing fruit. We must hold these beneficiaries accountable in the usage of these opportunities and facilities through inculcating a culture of responsibility and maturity.
These no-fee schools didn’t just come into reality out of goodwill. However, in the usage of these opportunities, the historical context that I spoke about at the onset explains the high sacrifices made by our former students in 1976. Our school governing bodies and leadership bodies must jealously guard against any abuse or irresponsible conduct with regard to these achievements by any of the intended beneficiaries.
The tendencies of schoolchildren participating in criminal conduct must be a thing of the past. We did not struggle against apartheid to hand over our freedom at schools to criminals who have no sense of what it has cost us to be where we are today. We call on our state security apparatus to stamp out these barbaric elements from our schools.
The children in our schools are strategic partners and place our fight against the scourge of HIV and Aids in a more advantageous position. I urge that we invest more resources in schools, both as an intervention in the future of our country’s leaders as well as our strategic approach to help stop the spread of the disease.
Recently, on the SABC, Radio Legwalagwala, a public education programme presented a phone-in session in which the hon B J Nobunga, the Deputy Speaker, constituted the panel to respond to callers. I was shattered when listening to the members of the public. The majority, of course, were young people openly declaring their frustration with regard to the HIV and Aids treatment they were not receiving in areas where the Department of Health is supposed to act.
These experiences our young people are going through create conditions of no hope for their future and could result in the youth’s indignation against their own government. In as far as the National Youth Service is concerned, the policy of government is very clear and should be canvassed widely to all young people and youth formations in the country.
Our school governing and leadership bodies are equally urged to jealously guard against any abuse or irresponsible conduct with regard to these achievements by any of the intended beneficiaries. Can we make an appeal once more to the education community to excel in this academic year as reciprocity for the no-fee schools and as a monument in honour of those students I spoke about in my introduction? I thank you very much, Chair. [Applause.]
Mr R J TAU: Chairperson, special delegates, hon members and comrades, I must confess today that for the very first time I’m sharing the same allocated minutes with the hon Watty. I don’t know what that means.
Nevertheless, one must state at the outset that it is quite interesting all the time to engage in this kind of debate, because it is a debate that allows us an opportunity to reflect on the extent to which we are interacting with our people as an institution. Also that understanding must always be located within its historical perspective, because if we just move on without any particular historical reflection we may stand to make a mistake.
Of course, the hon Watson makes the point that the NCOP is not the ANC, and the ANC is not the NCOP. However, the ANC as a liberation movement – as a people’s movement - has a set of principles that it has always allowed itself to be guided by. With this set of principles and having been given an overall majority mandate by our people to govern this country, we have done so in such a way that these organisational principles that have guided the ANC for a very long time also find expression in terms of how the institutions of our democratic country operate. An important instrument or principle that I would want to make reference to is the principle of self- criticism and criticism.
We would understand much better that as a movement we have consistently not reneged on characterising ourselves as a liberation movement or a people’s movement, and, in so doing, by not losing sight of that characterisation, we have also tried to ensure that the principle of self-criticism and criticism always guides the kind of work that we are doing as a movement. It is that kind of a principle that therefore informs the kind of work that we are doing as the NCOP. We cannot achieve this without the active participation of our people in the day-to-day running of their lives, and not only day-to-day running, but management of their lives. Of course, that can also not be done without proper consultation with our people. Therefore, as the ANC, we believe that we cannot lead without our people or else we may also run the risk, hon Watty - and we don’t want to do this as the ANC - of finding ourselves being seen as adventurous leaders, rather than a people’s organisation that always takes care of the people.
Therefore, this kind of a platform of taking Parliament to the people must always be understood within the context of allowing ourselves a platform as a country, as a government and as a people from which we can be constantly critiqued, and not only critiqued. Sometimes there is this wrong notion of understanding criticism only to be a negative thing, but in the context of the ANC it is a principle that has always guided us and it is informed by the understanding that it must be constructive criticism. With constructive criticism, obviously, we don’t mean that we need to be hero-worshipped or have our people praising us and so on.
It is in that regard that our people use the platforms of taking Parliament to the people or the NCOP to the people - whatever way you want to look at it - as a platform to appreciate what the institution is doing by going to them. But, equally, they are also looking at the grey areas, areas where there is a need for improvement and in so doing openly engaging with us as an institution.
It is in Gauteng once again where we have heard our people saying: “Thank you very much for having Parliament come to us. Thank you very much for interacting with us, but at the same time, we have problems. Here are our problems: We have a problem of poverty, of unemployment, of diseases and of good principles and policies that have been developed but that have not reached us.”
We could remember that on Tuesday or Wednesday young people stood up to say that the country is progressing in the correct direction. We are reading on a daily basis that the economy of the country is growing, but here we are as young people who are unemployed. So how do we translate this notion or conceptualisation? With regard to the hon Watty, I don’t know, Chair, if it is parliamentary for members to close their eyes during debates. Maybe the hon Watty will be able to open his eyes.
It is in that context that we heard young people saying that the economy is growing, but asking how we translate this economic growth to begin to effect or affect …
Mr A WATSON: I have a point of order, Chair. [Interjections.] Is the member implying that I was sleeping whilst I was contemplating his words?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon Watson, you are out of order. Sit down. He did not say that. [Laughter.] He was not implying that. Would you continue, hon member?
Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, I can’t hear you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): I said you are out of order. Take your seat. He never implied that. He was just asking whether it was parliamentary for you to close your eyes.
Mr A WATSON: I wasn’t sure.
Mr A J L MOSEKI: Hon Chair, is it parliamentary for a member to stand up in this august House and imply that another member was sleeping? [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): You are out of order, hon Moseki. [Laughter.] Hon member, continue with the debate.
Mr R J TAU: Thank you very much, Chairperson. As I was saying, young people challenged us as an institution. Not only did they challenge national departments, but they also raised issues that affect the extent to which provincial departments are impacting on their lives, local government and so forth.
Therefore, I cannot agree more with the statement made by the Premier of Gauteng to say that our programmes of social transformation cannot be seen to be isolated from each other, but should rather be seen as an interactive approach – whether it be a departmental interaction or even intergovernmentally, even at the level of the spheres of government. Therefore it becomes very important that as we engage with this kind of report, we are able to look at it as a report that affords us an opportunity to interact with our people and to ensure that in so doing, we are able to improve the lives of our people. Therefore, also as the ANC, let me take the opportunity to thank the province for the extent to which it was able to host us and take good care of us.
Lastly, I raise the point that came out as a serious appeal from young people and, in particular, young women, who said that government had put in place serious programmes that sought to skill them; that they had acquired the skills through all the institutions that had been established to assist young people, but that there was the problem of their being blacklisted. They said that they could not access loans; that they could not apply for things or whatever programmes that would assist them to be economically viable. They asked: What is it that we need to do, and we are appealing to you as the NCOP?
Therefore, one cannot agree more with the notion that says it is our responsibility now. We do have a report; we have listened to our people; it is up to us now to go back and do a follow-up and look at the programmes that have been put in place by government departments. These departments that are at a national level, at a provincial level, at a local level, are there to assist our young people to be better positioned to be constructive contributors and participants in the transformation of our country.
Chairperson, against the backdrop of time, I thank you very much for the opportunity. [Applause.]
Mr C J DE BEER (Northern Cape): Hon Chairperson, members of the NCOP, special delegates from provinces, I second what the hon Tau has just said. It is also an honour to participate in this debate because we all, I believe, celebrated Youth Day on Saturday, 16 June. We remember and honour those young people who sacrificed their lives, 31 years ago, for us to have freedom today. It was part of the long walk to freedom. We again sympathise with their families.
Steve Biko het gesê dat dit beter is om te sterf vir ’n idee wat sal voortleef, as om te leef vir ’n idee wat sal sterf. [Steve Biko said that it is better to die for an idea that will live than to live for an idea that will die.]
We must give hope to our people. We have a mandate to carry out. The NCOP represents provinces to ensure that the provincial interests are taken into account, to exercise oversight of national policy-making and to ensure that national, provincial and local government work effectively together. The main concepts are control, monitoring, accountability, participation and consultation.
Currently, the Speakers’ Forum is addressing the issue of effective oversight to hold the executive and the departments to account. In the Northern Cape, where I come from, we also have the portfolio committee for safety and liaison, and with the Free State and the North West we have developed a handbook for members to strengthen oversight practices. I am handing over a copy of it to you here today. [Applause.]
Our oversight of the Sebokeng Municipality serves as an acknowledgement of the major role that townships such as Sebokeng, Everton and Sharpeville played in the liberation of South Africa. Our approach is to engage in a people-driven process by taking, in this case, the NCOP to the people to strengthen participatory governance at local government level for effective and sustainable service delivery.
This institution is in a strategic oversight position as its mandate enables it to keep a constant watch on the processes that must integrate legislative and executive decisions in all spheres of government and that must ensure that these decisions are practically implemented.
There is no way that we can isolate our people. One of the critical and most important challenges is to accelerate the programme of ensuring that the homeless and those who live in squalor do have decently built houses, well-located land and access to basic services such as water, sanitation and electricity.
Local government needs to reorientate itself in order to deliver better services to communities. The municipalities need to change the mindset or approach of people at management and operational levels. There must not be a lack of motivation, neither a lack of organisation nor a lack of sufficient, developed, technical knowledge to deal with these challenges. All municipal officials must take action, meet deadlines and take the best decisions in the shortest time.
The provincial government and the private sector must work together to create partnerships that must respond to the mandate given to us by the people of Gauteng - and that is to create work, reduce crime and deliver services.
The Constitution gives local government as a whole and municipalities in particular a new dynamic role as instruments of service delivery. Rural people and rural women in particular bear the largest burden of poverty in South Africa. If we can change the inequalities and inefficiencies of the past, rural areas can become productive and sustainable. Good information is a basis of good planning. It is also a basic requirement for monitoring and responding to poverty and hardships in rural and urban communities and for monitoring and alleviating environmental damage.
We must learn from our past to build the future. The struggle continues to reduce unemployment and to advance economic growth through the IDPs of municipalities. Municipalities must be held accountable for their IDPs, and they will have to be checked at least twice a year to monitor the implementation thereof. There is a lack of decent sports facilities in our communities where the poor people live.
Municipalities receive funding that is part of the municipal infrastructure grant which must be utilised for the creation of sports facilities. In some cases, our learners train in athletics in the streets and not on athletic tracks. In this case ward committees can also hold councillors accountable and ask questions regarding the spending of money by the municipalities, creating infrastructure and jobs through IDPs. The objective of ward committees must be to enhance and strengthen participatory democracy. Ward councillors must provide input into integrated development plans to ensure that the needs of the people are addressed in these plans.
Community development workers must bring government closer to the people and co-ordinate access to information. The lack of information creates confusion. Councillors and law-enforcement officials must facilitate measures to respond quickly to people’s concerns. It is crucial that our councillors also do oversight in their wards, pick up issues and address them immediately. MPs and MPLs are there to assist in solving issues where possible, interacting with departments, MECs and portfolio committees. We congratulate the Barrage police station and SAPS members who moved from position 67 to position 3 in Gauteng as a result of their work on crime prevention.
Sector policing is a crucial element in crime prevention. Owing to a lack of resources, this programme cannot be fully implemented. In most cases, sector policing is in phase 1 and 2 and has to develop to phase 5. It would be advisable to demarcate the policing area into smaller manageable areas to implement sector policing.
A desperate need exists to educate the local community because of the high illiteracy and poverty rates. Community education must be done through Abet, the Department of Labour, the Department of Social Services and the Department of Safety and Security on issues such as rape, assault, domestic violence and drug abuse.
As a result of a lack of transport in the policing area, community members are not able to attend workshops and community meetings. Community policing forums, CPFs, and neighbourhood watches are structures that must assist in crime-prevention programmes in specific areas. There must be integrated action between community safety forums, CSFs, ward committees, school governing bodies and community development workers, and other community organisations to have a co-ordinated approach towards crime prevention. We want safer streets, safer roads, safer schools and a safe environment in which to do our business. This is crucial.
We encourage station commissioners to recruit former commando members as police reservists. This is a programme that has to be rolled out by the station commissioner at station level. It has been a huge success in Wakkerstroom.
Serious attention will have to be given to address the insufficient office space and lack of security measures around that specific police station. There is poor infrastructure, including police cells, and a lack of facilities for people with disabilities and patrol vehicles. Good relationships between the SAPS and the communities will enhance policing and the CSFs can gain the confidence of the community.
Parents and families have a crucial role to play in fighting the key national issues facing our nation, such as crime, education, violence against women and children, HIV and Aids, teenage pregnancy, poor performance and violence in schools, as well as the Moral Regeneration Movement. Communities must take charge of their lives by invoking their rights contained in laws and policies. With those rights however, go responsibilities.
It is not just our responsibilities as MPs and MPLs but also as councillors to listen to our people and assist in addressing issues through constituency work, constituency offices, meetings with stakeholders, door- to-door visits and by giving feedback – and that is important - on the issues we have addressed. Through this we can create a better life for our people and put our people first. Hon Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to participate in this debate. [Applause.]
SOSISWEBHU WEMKHANDLU WEMAPROVINSI: Mgcinisihlalo lohloniphekile, ngitsandza kubonga kakhulu kutfola lelitfuba lekutsi nami ngibe yincenye yalenkhulumomphikiswano. Ngiyabonga futsi nakuMake Oliphant loye waphumelela kutsi akhone kuvala sikhala Selisekela Lasihlalo lebekufanele kube nguye losivulela aphindze asivalele Lenkhulumomphikiswano. Kodvwa-ke ngekutsi Sihlalo uye wangaphumeleli ngekutsi uphatsekile lekuyintfo lebeyingakabhekeki, siye sacela Make Oliphant naSosiswebhu Walomkhandlu Wemaprovinsi kutsi sale kuba ngabo labasivulela baphindze basivalele lenkhulumomphikiswano.
Ngibonga kakhulu nakuBabe Shiceka lokhulume egameni leGauteng. Ngeke ngimsole kutsi ukhulume njengahulumende waseGawuteng ngobe phela empeleni bekamele Ndvunankhulu. Kodvwa-ke ngitakusho nje nine bekunene kutsi, njengobe bekakhuluma amele Ndvunankhulu bengitawujabula kakhulu kuva kutsi sebahambe kangakanani ngaloku lobekukhulunywa ngulaba baseSebokeng.
Angibonge-ke nalamanye nje emalunga lafake sandla ngekuba yincenye yalenkhulumomphikiswano, ikakhulu laba labavela etifundzeni letahlukahlukene njengaboMpumalanga, nabo-“Eastern Cape”, ngingete ngaticedza tonkhe letifundza bekunene.
Ngitsandza kusho nje kutsi njengobe siphetse lenkhulumomphikiswano yalamuhla ngikhumbula umkhankhaso lowake waba khona ngeminyaka yangabo 1947, lapho imibutfo leyehlukahlukene leyayilwela inkhululeko yahlela imikhankhaso yekuphikisana nalolukhetfo lolwalwatiwa kutsi lutabakhona nga-
- Phela, ngulo lolweta nencindzetelo lenkhulu kakhulu.
Kulowo mkhankhaso kwakutsi nakuhanjwa kubutwe kubantfu kutsi nine ningafuna hulumende longaniphatsa njani? Lomkhankhaso wachubeka waze wafika kuKhongolose Webantfu wanga-1955, lapho khona bantfu batsi bafuna hulumende lotawubuswa bantfu ngekwentsandvo yelinyenti. Bafuna hulumende lotabovumela bantfu kutsi babeke emavi kanye nemibono yabo mayelana nekuphatfwa kwelive labo.
Kungaleso sizatfu-ke kutsi loluhlelo lwekutsatsa iPhalamende siyiyise ebantfwini lusahamba ngalowo mgomo weFreedom Charter wekutsi bantfu bayawubusa; nekutsi bantfu batawuhlanganyela ekulawulweni kwelive labo.
Ngitsite nangita lapha ePhalamende ekuseni, ngeva etindzabeni kutsiwa mengameli weFIFA, Babe Sepp Blatter utsi laba labakhuluma ngekutsi iNingizimu Afrika ayikakulungeli kuphatsa imidlalo yebhola yanga 2010 baphetfwe ngumona. Bentiwa kubona lemisebenti lemihle leyentiwa yiNingizimu Afrika. Nami-ke ngitsi nalabo labatsi i-ncop ayiwuhambisi kahle lomcimbi wekuyisa iPhalamende ebantfwini nome bangekhatsi nome ngaphandle baphetfwe ngumona. Indzaba kutsi banemona nalemisebenti lemihle leyentiwa yi-NCOP ngekutsi imikise leNdlu yePhalamende ebantfwini. (Translation of Siswati paragraphs follows.)
[The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Hon Chair, I want to thank you very much for the opportunity to be part of this debate. I would also like to thank Mrs Olifant for being able to take the place of the Deputy Speaker who should have been chairing this meeting here today.
As a result of the Chairperson not being able to be with us due to unforeseen illness, we have asked Mrs Olifant and the Chief Whip of this House to take up the task of opening and closing today’s debate.
I also want to thank Mr Shiceka who spoke as a delegate from Gauteng. I will not fault him for speaking as a delegate of the Gauteng legislature because, as we all know, he was representing the Premier. I will say this though, ladies and gentlemen, that as he was speaking on behalf of the Premier, he omitted to report to us on the developments in Sebokeng.
I also want to thank all the members who have taken part in this debate, especially those who came from the different provinces such as Mpumalanga and the Eastern Cape, just to mention a few.
As we enter into this debate, I am reminded of a campaign that we had in 1947, where the different organisations that were fighting for freedom came together to form one campaign against the 1948 elections which were to usher in an oppressive regime.
It was at this campaign that people would go out to the public and enquire as to what type of leadership the people preferred. This campaign continued until the People’s Congress of 1955, where the people replied that they preferred a democratic government. They said they preferred a government that allowed people to have a voice with regard to the governance of this country.
It is in response to that that we formed and still continue the programme of Taking Parliament to the People as an answer to the call of the Freedom Charter, allowing the masses to be part of the running of this country.
As I was coming to Parliament this morning, I heard over the news that the president of Fifa, Mr Sepp Blatter, said that those who say South Africa is not ready to host the 2010 soccer world games, are just being jealous. They envy South Africa for the commendable work we are doing. I am also echoing the same thing, that those who are saying that the NCOP does not conduct Taking Parliament to the People well, are also being jealous.]
So, to me it does not matter whether you say the NCOP is not the whole of Parliament. What I believe is that the permanent delegates of the NCOP are not half-parliamentarians but they are full parliamentarians as they work on the ground.
We also need to say that as we prepare to take Parliament to the people, we have a steering committee which is composed of the office bearers of the NCOP. We cannot, then, as the ANC be apologetic about those office bearers coming from the ruling party. [Interjections.]
We also cannot be apologetic about the fact that when we go to any hosting province, the provincial whip of that particular province becomes part of the steering committee and that one additional member of that provincial delegation also becomes part of the steering committee.
Further to that, as we go to the hosting province we ensure that there is a political steering committee at that provincial legislature level. So if the provincial set-up at that level is that some of the officers cannot talk to one another, that should not be brought up as a problem of the NCOP. However, we do make it a point to say, as we go to Gauteng, to Mpumalanga and so on, that all relevant stakeholders must be part of that process. So, if there is any communication breakdown it must not be brought back to us.
But we must accept that as we proceed with the programme of Taking Parliament to the People, it is very important that we pause and retreat and ask ourselves where we made mistakes. This is because you cannot say about a process in which you interact with 5 000 people on average per day, that you could not have made any mistakes. We do expect all parties to come up with some constructive proposals with regard to that. At another time when the Chairperson was at this podium, he thanked the FF Plus for the constructive proposal they put forward.
Ngobe phela sivumelana sonkhe ekutseni ngeke kwenteke kutsi onkhe emalanga nasitsatsa iPhalamende siyimikisa ebantfwini kufanele sihlale phansi sonkhe sibe sicumbi ndzawonye. Ngiko nje setama kutsi kube netinhlelo tekutsi sekuphume nalabanye phela, ngemakhumbi nome ngetincola bayewubuka leminye imiklamo.
Kodvwa nakutawutsi nakunaleto tinhlelo bese kuba netinhlangano tembusave lekutsi njalo nje nasiphumile tona tisale tenta sicumbi sekukhokhasa titodvwa, kutakwenteka kanjani kutsi tibe yincenye yalomkhankhaso? Kona setitawuhlangana kanjani nalabantfu lekuyiwa kubo? [Luhleko.]
Make Oliphant nakakhuluma ngekutsi sihambile sabona, vele loko kuyenteka sesikubonile kanyentana.
Nakhona sekunaletinhlelo tekutsi labanye baphetse imicimbi letsite, bosihlalo phela, batawukhumbula labanye kutsi kulomunye umhlangano lapho bekukhulunywa ngetindzaba taboMake, uMnu Terblanche weDA abenguSihlalo. Ngalelinye linga Make Robinson bekangumlingani waSihlalo ngaphandle-ke nakunelilunga lelisha leDA lelifika nyalo lamuhla lapha lelingazange libabone nome-ke lawo malunga aliwatsatsi njengemalunga eDA. [Kuhlaba Lulwimi.]
Mgcinisihlalo, njengobe ngisasalelwe yimizuzu lesiphohlongo nje lapha, ngisacela kusho kutsi njengobe sichubeka naloluhlelo lwekutsatsa iPhalamende siyimikise ebantfwini, leprovinsi lesiya kuyo nyalo, yiNshonalanga Kapa, itabe seyiyekugcina kuwo onkhe lamaprovinsi. Sitsite- ke, njengobe sitabe sesicedze onkhe lamaprovinsi layimfica, sifuna kutsi iprovinsi ngayinye isitfumelele luhlatiyo lwayo, isho kutsi yona inamiphi imibono ngaloluhlelo.
Emvakwaloko-ke sitawuhlala phansi njenge NCOP sibe neluhlelo loluyabe lubuya kubosihlalo bemakomidi, kubososiwebhu, kanye nasemacenjini. Sitawutsi-ke nasesikhonile kuwuhlanganisa kahle lowo mbiko weluhlatiyo bese siyawabita onkhe emaprovinsi sibonisane ngekutsi njengobe sesicala umjikeleto lolandzelako nje, bona njengemaprovinsi babona kutsi sishaye ngaluphi lunyawo?
Kodvwa-ke yonkhe indzawo lapho siye sefika khona bantfu basishayela tandla basibute nekusibuta kutsi sitawuphindze sibuye nini njenge NCOP. Natsi sibatise kutsi sisaya kulenye iprovinsi silindzeni sitawubuya kumjikeleto lotawulandzela.
Ngako kungenteka kutsi nasiphuma nalowo mbiko lohlanganisa imicondvo, singahle sivumelane kutsi ngethemu lelandzelako, mhlayimbe ngeliviki linye, singatsatsa emaprovinsi lamatsatfu ngekutaba tsine njenge NCOP silingane lawo maprovinsi. (Translation of Siswati paragraphs follows.)
[As we have all agreed, it is not possible for all of us to go at once every time we take Parliament to the people; we have to formulate a schedule so that different people travel at different times in different modes of transport, kombis or wagons, to go and see the different projects.
But if whenever we have gone out to attend these events, there will then be different political parties remaining behind, forming caucuses and campaigning alone, how can they then be part of the same campaign of Taking Parliament to the People? How will they also meet the people we are going to? [Laughter.]
When Mrs Oliphant says we have travelled and seen, it is true, it does happen, we have seen it several times.
And even now we have programmes that have been made available, where different members preside at different meetings … Others will remember that at one meeting where we spoke on women’s issues Ms Terblanche of the DA was the Chair and on another day Ms Robinson partnered with her; unless there is a new member of the DA here that was not part of that meeting and did not see them, or unless she is not regarded as a member of the DA. [Interjections.]
Chairperson, because I still have about eight more minutes, I would like to say that as we continue with the programme of Taking Parliament to the People, the province that we are going to now, the Western Cape, will be the last province this year. As we said, we will have completed all nine provinces; we want each province to send us its own analysis of the programme, to give us some ideas it has about this programme.
After that we will meet again as the NCOP and have a session with the chairpersons of committees, the Office of the Chief Whips and the different political parties. After we have compiled a comprehensive report of the analysis, we will then call upon all the provinces and have a discussion regarding the new cycle and we would like an input from them, as to which direction we should take.
But everywhere we have been, the people have applauded us and asked us when we would be returning as the NCOP. We have informed them that we are still visiting other provinces and that we will return in the next cycle.
As a result when we come out with that report that brings together all the other reports, we may agree that in the next term we may visit three provinces per week by allocating ourselves as the NCOP, according to the number of those provinces.]
However, that will be informed by the constructive input which we need to make in that particular process.
We also need to say that as we proceed with Taking Parliament to the People, I think this debate is fitting today because it is taking place when our movement is going to have its national policy conference next week.
With all countries one cannot say that when a ruling majority party of that country is having its policy conference that that is an issue that can be neglected, because it will determine the route which the future of that country is going to take. Part of those discussions will also in a way evaluate how our legislature system is working for the country to ensure that we deliver on the mandate of a better life for all.
I thought the speakers who came from certain different parties would also wish us well for that particular conference. [Interjections.] But we know … [Interjections.] Okay, maybe I missed that one. What we are saying is that we will approach that conference objectively with a view to what we can do even better.
This is because hon members would agree with me that in the past 13 years, while there is much room for improvement, we have done things which no any other country could have done in 13 years. That will not leave out the performance and also the future vision which the legislative sector will have to take as we move forward.
However, in conclusion, the National Chairperson of the ANC, Minister of Defence hon Mosiuoa Lekota, during the summit on intergovernmental relations that we hosted on 3 May and 4 May this year, said that through the NCOP many of our people know that, firstly, they can be heard directly; secondly, they can compel amendments to proposed legislation which affect their lives; thirdly, they know that through the NCOP, the physical distance of Parliament from them is no longer a barrier. I thought we would give ourselves a round of applause for what Minister Lekota said to us. [Applause.]
He said further that the people, through the NCOP, know that they will not only see their elected representatives on television, but that they can physically see, hear and talk to them directly and be in a position to put their case.
I think as an institution we are still doing very well, and as we move to the Western Cape we must also ensure that we outdo ourselves, as the President said in our 10-year celebrations. Thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Thank you. That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their votes.
In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. Is there any province wishing to make a declaration? No.
We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape? Ms B N DLULANE: Siyayixhasa. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Free State?
Mr T S RALANE: Hai seketela. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Gauteng?
Mr E M SOGONI: Siyavuma. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): KwaZulu-Natal?
Mr D D GAMEDE: Elethu. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Limpopo?
Mr S MOTIMELE (Limpopo): Re dumellana le yona. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Mpumalanga?
Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Siyavuma. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Northern Cape?
Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Re a dumelana le yona. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): North West?
Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke ya rona. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Western Cape?
Mr N J MACK: Siyavuma. [Ihlombe.] [We support. [Applause.]]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the Report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The Council adjourned at 15:35. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
FRIDAY, 15 JUNE 2007
TABLINGS
National Council of Provinces
- The Chairperson CREDA PLEASE INSERT REPORT - Insert T070615 – insert 1 – PAGES 1105-1161
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MONDAY, 18 JUNE 2007
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
- Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism
(1) The Joint Tagging Mechanism, in terms of Joint Rule 160(3),
classified the following Bills as section 75 Bills:
(a) Criminal Law (Sentencing) Amendment Bill [B 15 - 2007]
(National Assembly – sec 75).
(b) Human Sciences Research Council Bill [B 16 - 2007]
(National Assembly – sec 75).
(2) The JTM in terms of Joint Rule 160(3) also classified the Human
Sciences Research Council Bill [B 16 - 2007], introduced in the
National Assembly, as a Bill falling within the ambit of section
18(1)(a) of the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework
Act, 2003 (Act No 41 of 2003).
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
- The Minister of Finance
(a) Convention between the Government of the Republic of South
Africa and the Swiss Confederation for the Avoidance of Double
Taxation with respect to Taxes on Income, tabled in terms of
section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.
(b) Explanatory Memorandum to the Convention between the Government
of the Republic of South Africa and the Swiss Confederation for
the Avoidance of Double Taxation with respect to Taxes on Income.
(c) Convention between the Government of the Republic of South
Africa and the Government of the Portuguese Republic for the
Avoidance of Double Taxation with respect to Taxes on Income,
tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.
(d) Explanatory Memorandum to the Convention between the Government
of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the
Portuguese Republic for the Avoidance of Double Taxation with
respect to Taxes on Income.
(e) Convention between the Government of the Republic of South
Africa and the Government of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia for the
Avoidance of Double Taxation with respect to Taxes on Income,
tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.
(f) Explanatory Memorandum to the Convention between the Government
of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Kingdom
of Saudi Arabia for the Avoidance of Double Taxation with respect
to Taxes on Income.
National Council of Provinces
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COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
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TUESDAY, 19 JUNE 2007
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
- Draft Bill submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159
(a) Diamond Export Levy (Administration) Bill, 2007, submitted by
the Minister of Finance. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Finance and the Select Committee on Finance.
- Introduction of Bills
(1) The Minister of Finance
(a) Diamond Export Levy Bill [B 22 – 2007].
Introduction in the National Assembly (proposed sec 77) and
referral to the Portfolio Committee on Finance of the National
Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on 19 June 2007.
In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within three parliamentary
working days.
(b) Diamond Export Levy (Administration) Bill [B 23 – 2007].
Introduction in the National Assembly (proposed sec 75) and
referral to the Portfolio Committee on Finance of the National
Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on 19 June 2007.
In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within three parliamentary
working days.
- Referral of Bill to National House of Traditional Leaders
The Secretary to Parliament has, on 19 June 2007, in accordance with
section 18(1) of the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework
Act, 2003 (Act No 41 of 2003), referred the Human Sciences Research
Council Bill [B 16 - 2007] (National Assembly - sec 75) to the National
House of Traditional Leaders, which must, within 30 days from the date
of this referral, make any comments it wishes to make.
National Council of Provinces The Chairperson
- Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bill passed and transmitted
(1) Bill passed by National Assembly on 19 June 2007 and
transmitted for concurrence:
(a) Appropriation Bill [B 2 – 2007] (National Assembly – sec
77)
The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Finance of
the National Council of Provinces.
- Referral to Committees of papers tabled
(1) The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
Social Services for consideration:
(a) Employment Equity Report of the Department of Home Affairs
for 2007-2008, in terms of section 21(2) of the Employment
Equity Act, 1998 (Act No 55 of 1998).
(2) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
Labour and Public Enterprises for consideration and report:
(a) Protocol on Policy and Regulatory Framework for NEPAD (New
Partnership for Africa’s Development) ICT Broadband
Infrastructure for Eastern and Southern Africa, tabled in
terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.
(b) Explanatory Memorandum to the Protocol on Policy and
Regulatory Framework for NEPAD (New Partnership for Africa’s
Development) ICT Broadband Infrastructure for Eastern and
Southern Africa.
(3) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
Land and Environmental Affairs:
(a) Government Notice No 396 published in Government Gazette
No 29864 dated 4 May 2007: Intention to declare the Highveld
Priority Area in terms of section 18(1) of the National
Environmental Management: Air Quality Act, 2004 (Act No 39 of
2004).
(b) Government Notice No 438 published in Government Gazette
No 29887 dated 11 May 2007: Change of name: Greater St Lucia
Wetland Park and Greater St Lucia Wetland Park Authority, in
terms of the World Heritage Convention Act, 1999 (Act No 49 of
1999).
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Council of Provinces
- Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the Provisional Suspension from Office and the Withholding of Remuneration of Mr M F Mathe, an Additional Magistrate at Pinetown, dated 15 June 2007:
The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having
considered the report on the provisional suspension from office of
Magistrate M F Mathe, and the withholding of his remuneration, tabled
by the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development in terms of
sections 13 (3)(b) and 13 (4A)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act 90
of 1993), reports as follows:
1. The Select Committee noted from the report tabled by the
Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development that the
Magistrates Commission resolved on 24 May 2007 to withhold the
remuneration of Mr Mathe in terms of the section 13 (4A) (a)
of the Magistrates Act, 1993.
2. The Select Committee noted that Mr Mathe was, on 4 May 2007
convicted by the Durban Regional Court on a charge of theft of
R11, 000.00 in cash.
3. In terms of section 13(4A)(c) of the Magistrates Act, 1993,
Parliament must, as soon as is reasonably possible, consider
the report and pass a resolution as to whether or not the
determination concerned is confirmed, either with or without
amendment, or set aside.
4. The Select Committee therefore recommends that the Council
resolves to confirm -
(a) the provisional suspension of Mr Mathe in terms of section
13(3)(c) of the Magistrates Act, 1993; and
(b) the determination by the Magistrates Commission to
withhold Mr Mathe’s remuneration in terms of section
13(4A)(c) of the Magistrates Act, 1993.
Report to be considered.
- Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the Provisional Suspension from Office and the Withholding of Remuneration of Mr I X Masimini, an Additional Magistrate at Queenstown, dated 15 June 2007:
The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having
considered the report on the provisional suspension from office of
Magistrate I X Masimini, and the withholding of his remuneration,
tabled by the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development in
terms of sections 13(3)(b) and 13(4A)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993
(Act 90 of 1993), reports as follows:
1. The Select Committee noted from the report tabled by the Minister
for Justice and Constitutional Development that the Magistrates
Commission resolved on 19 April 2007 to withhold the remuneration
of Mr Masimini in terms of the section 13 (4A) (a) of the
Magistrates Act, 1993.
2. The Select Committee noted that Mr Masimini was, on 24 November
2006, convicted on a charge of assault with the intent to do
grievous bodily harm by the Court at Ezibeleni.
3. In terms of section 13(4A)(c) of Magistrates Act, 1993, Parliament
must, as soon as is reasonably possible, consider the report and
pass a resolution as to whether or not the determination
concerned is confirmed, either with or without amendment, or set
aside.
4. The Select Committee therefore recommends that the Council
resolves to confirm -
(a) the provisional suspension of Mr Masimini in terms of
section 13(3)(c) of the Magistrates Act, 1993; and
(b) the determination by the Magistrates Commission to
withhold Mr Masimini’s remuneration in terms of section
13(4A)(c) of the Magistrates Act, 1993.
Report to be considered.