National Assembly - 01 November 2006
WEDNESDAY, 01 NOVEMBER 2006
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
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The House met at 15:05.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
RETIREMENT OF SECRETARY TO THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
(Announcement)
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I wish to announce that the Secretary to the National Assembly, Mr Kasper Hahndiek, is to retire on 30 November 2006. I now recognise the hon Chief Whip of the Majority Party.
APPOINTMENT OF NEW SECRETARY TO NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
(Draft Resolution) The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House, on the recommendation of the Speaker, appoints Mr M K Mansura as Secretary to the National Assembly with effect from 1 December 2006.
Agreed to.
The SPEAKER: It’s obvious that there are no objections to the appointment of the hon Mansura with effect from 1 December. And, of course, at the appropriate time, we will express ourselves on the service by the outgoing Secretary to the National Assembly, Mr Hahndiek.
APPOINTMENT OF DISCIPLINARY COMMITTEE IN RELATION TO ABUSE OF TRAVEL
VOUCHERS
(Announcement)
The SPEAKER: Two weeks ago, the hon House Chairperson, Mr Doidge, as Acting Speaker, informed the House that court orders had been made against a number of members of this House for charges relating to the abuse of travel vouchers, after they had entered into plea bargains. He further informed the House that the relevant court documents had been requested and that, once they have been received, the presiding officers would announce what steps they propose taking.
All relevant documents have now been obtained, relating to nine current members of this House. It is now incumbent upon the House to decide what steps it should take in respect of those members.
On a previous occasion last year, in similar circumstances, the Rules Committee agreed that the Speaker should follow the disciplinary procedures available in the Rules. Following that precedent, I am formally requesting the Deputy Speaker to convene the disciplinary committee without delay to advice me on appropriate action to be taken against the nine members concerned.
I must further inform the House that the National Prosecuting Authority in conducting its investigations, has identified 12 members of this House as having utilised their travel vouchers for vehicle hire in contravention of parliamentary Rules and regulations.
However, after preliminary enquiries, the National Prosecuting Authority decided not to prosecute these members. I am also referring the available information in respect of these members to the disciplinary committee for advice.
Parties will be approached soon to designate members to serve on the disciplinary committee. I trust parties will respond promptly so that we can deal with this issue as expeditiously as possible.
QUESTIONS TO THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, we move the draft resolution printed in the name of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party on the Order Paper, as follows:
That, notwithstanding Rule 110(2)(b), which provides that questions to the Deputy President must not be scheduled for the same week in which the Deputy President is scheduled to answer questions in the Council, questions to the Deputy President be scheduled for today.
Agreed to.
MOTION OF CONDOLENCE
(The late former President Pieter Willem Botha)
Die HOOFSWEEP VAN DIE MEERDERHEIDSPARTY: Mev die Speaker, ek stel sonder kennisgewing voor: Dat die Huis –
(1) kennis neem —
(a) van die afsterwe van voormalige president Pieter Willem
Botha op Dinsdag, 31 Oktober 2006; en
(b) dat van 1948 tot 1989, voor die aanvang van demokrasie in
Suid-Afrika, voormalige president Botha gedien het as
Parlementslid, Minister, Eerste Minister en Staatspresident en
dat daar gedurende sy ampstermyn as Staatspresident voorlopige
gesprekke gevoer is wat gelei het tot onderhandelings
aangaande die oorgang na demokrasie; en
(2) besluit om sy meegevoel aan die familie, vriende en kollegas van voormalige president P W Botha oor te dra en om hulle gedurende hierdie moeilike tyd sterkte toe te wens. (Translation of Afrikaans motion of condolence follows.)
[The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House–
(1) notes – (a) the passing away of former President Pieter Willem Botha on Tuesday, 31 October 2006; and
(b) that from 1948 to 1989, before the advent of democracy in
South Africa, former President Botha served as a Member of
Parliament, Minister, Prime Minister and State President, and
that during his term as State President preliminary
discussions which led to negotiations regarding the
transition to democracy were held; and
(2) resolves to extend its sympathy to the family, friends and colleagues of former President P W Botha and to wish them strength during this difficult time.]
Agreed to.
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Implications of Deputy President’s visit to India for enhanced co-operation and strengthening of economic ties
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Ms K R Magau (ANC) asked the Deputy President:
(1) Whether her visit to India will enhance co-operation between South Africa and India in terms of skills acquisition for young South Africans, training programmes in the field of (a) engineering, (b) mathematics, (c) science and (d) vocational training, small, medium and micro enterprise (SMMEs) development projects and co-operative projects that will benefit rural women; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, how;
(2) whether this visit has contributed to strengthen the India- Brasil-South Africa Forum (IBSA); if so, what are the relevant details;
(3) whether her visit will also enhance co-operation, strengthen economic ties between developing countries and provide platforms to promote a multi-lateral order that is conducive to international security and poverty eradication; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so what are the relevant details? N1847E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, and hon members, the question is about co-operation with India and the International Political Science Association as well. My visit to India focused on skills acquisition and the second economy interventions. It focused on what we can do through Jipsa; what we can do for the training of engineers and artisans; and what we can do for mathematics, science and technology teachers as well as the broader scientific skills.
India has implemented some of the most impressive mechanisms for fast- tracking the creation of these skills within their economy and India has become a leader in the production of engineers in a very short time. Our visit therefore focused on understanding the models that they have used and the possibility of applying those models in South Africa.
Agreements were reached with several institutions in India regarding the placement of unemployed graduates for skills acquisition, as well as gaining work experience. The placements that we have already arranged range from the placement of those with a background in engineering and the built environment in general to those who are seeking skills in finance, tourism and ICT. We have received further offers for training in ICT, which the Department of Communications is therefore pursuing.
My office and the Independent Development Trust as well as the Department of Public Works and Umsobomvu are also in discussion with our colleagues in India about using some of their trainers in South Africa, especially concerning the model that involves the training of artisans, and accreditation and work experience in the process of training. The artisans will graduate with the tools, entrepreneurial skills as well as their own generators so that they can also be self-employed.
I have been working with the Indians on training and building the capacity of our small enterprises and co-operatives. To date, we have been able to use Indian trainers to train 1 000 trainers mainly from community-based organisations and NGOs. We have also been able to train 200 officials from municipalities using the manuals that we have adapted slightly, which we received from our Indian colleagues.
We have trained 400 credit officers because in every co-operative we have also made sure that there is a savings club. We are doing this work concerning credit, and microcredit in particular, with the Centre for Microfinance at the University of Pretoria, who has also adopted the Indian model.
Clearly, the relationship between India and ourselves has been strengthened. Indeed, while we have not done work specifically in my office in relation to India, Brazil and South Africa, this work should be able to strengthen that relationship as well. I thank you.
Mnu M U KALAKO: Mandibulele, Sekela-Mongameli, ngempendulo yakho. Ndifuna ukutsho ukuba siyancoma thina singabantu abahlelelekileyo nabangathathi ntweni, ngezi nzame uzenzayo. Kambe ke sinale ngxaki yabantwana, abangamadodana nabangamantombazana, abathi bakuphuma esikolweni bangafumani ngqesho. Ngoko siyathemba ukuba ezi nkqubo zakho ziza kunceda, ngakumbi ke ezi zinxulumene noosomashishini abasakhasayo nemifela. Ezo zingena zwabha kule nto uthe weza nayo, kuthiwa yi-Asgisa. Le nkqubo iya kwenza ukuba ababandakanyekayo kula mashishini bakwazi ukungcamla nokuxhamla, ngakumbi kuhlumo loqoqosho.
Masiyithethe inyani yokuba uhlumo lwezoqoqosho lusangcanyulwa ngabo baneentsiba, bakwaziyo ukubhabha – masingaxokisani kuleyo into. Siyalincoma ke eli nyathelo ulithathileyo, kuba liza kunceda oosomashishini abasakhasayo nabantu abakwimifela ukuba baxhamle kuhlumo loqoqosho lweli. Ndifuna nje ukwenza loo mbulelo, Sekela-Mongameli. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Mr M U KALAKO: Deputy President, let me thank you for your response. I wish to say that we, as the disadvantaged and underprivileged people, appreciate these efforts that you are making. However, we have this problem of scholars, males as well as females, who do not get employed after they have finished their studies.
We hope therefore that these programmes will help especially those who are involved in small businesses and co-operatives. These are relevant to the project you have introduced known as Asgisa. Those who are involved in entrepreneurship will be able to enjoy the fruits of this programme, especially regarding the advancement of economic development. Let us be honest about the fact that economic development is still enjoyed by those who have the means and can afford it; let us not fool one another about that. We appreciate this initiative that you have taken, because it will enable small businesses and the co-operatives to benefit from the economic development of this country. I thank you for this, Deputy President.]
The SPEAKER: I don’t know, Deputy President, whether there is anything that you want to comment on? It does not look like you want to.
Mr L B LABUSCHAGNE: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, one of the biggest constraints in Asgisa is the lack of skills and it is clear that the Seta policy of the government has failed miserably in this regard. India has achieved miracles in skills training that have lifted millions out of their second economy. The question is: Is the government prepared to abandon the discredited Setas and concentrate on emulating India and, where necessary, adapt the Indian programmes to our circumstances? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, we have not considered abandoning the Seta system, but we have considered strengthening the Setas and making sure that our Indian colleagues also assist us to strengthen the functioning of our Setas. With the FET colleges coming on board, some of the people that would go to Setas will also be assisted in the FET system. I think it’s important that we do not paint all the Setas with one brush because there are some Setas that are actually high performers. The ICT Seta, the banks Seta and the mining Seta, for instance, are doing excellent jobs. So there are a number that are doing a good job, but we also are the first ones to admit that there are others that we are very concerned about. The Minister himself, working together with the Presidency, is focusing on those Setas that are underperforming, so that we can take correctional action.
Members must remember that for some of our young people the entry point into the Seta system is one that provides very low entry barriers in order for them to access training. So if we take that away, we could also end up frustrating a lot of young people. I agree with you that the quality of training has to improve in some of the Setas.
Prince N E ZULU: Madam Speaker, while the three countries, ie India, Brazil and South Africa, did acknowledge that the progress towards achieving the Millennium Development Goals was exceptionally low, with this in mind, do we have contingency plans to half poverty by the year 2015, as poverty is our greatest challenge?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think, hon member, that you are part of the contingency plan, that is higher performance by MPs in their constituencies to ensure that municipalities perform better and to ensure that you are robust in your oversight so that we can see higher performance in relation to government.
In addition, we are working very hard on the second economy framework. We have been implementing the initiatives in a rather fragmented way. So we are planning to pool all of those together because many of them are poverty- alleviating type of activities. We have to do what we are doing much better and I count on you as one of my contingency plans, hon member. [Interjections.] Yes, you personally.
Mr H B CUPIDO: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, thank you very much for the initiatives that have been taken since your visit to India. You mentioned skills development and you have mentioned a few figures and different fields. Would you enlighten the House a little bit more about the kind of agreements that are there at this stage on developing the technical skills and the product knowledge skills, especially of those entrepreneurs who’d like to be involved in the tourism industry in South Africa? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, with regard to India, we do have a co- operation agreement that is an overall agreement within which we can slot all of these sectors that the hon member has referred to. We’ve tried to send young people in the area of ICT because the Indians are so good in that area. And regarding those that already had a background in ICT, we wanted to have them gain experience in software development, in the area of mainframes as well as high-level applications of ICT.
The majority of the group that is now in India have a built environment background. However, where they are, they were operating at a very low level, with very little possibility of getting hands-on experience in exciting projects. Just as an example, concerning one of the young women that we placed in the municipality of Mumbai, one of the areas that she has been able to gain experience in is in planning and creating structures in very small spaces that are very highly functional and versatile. Those of you who have been to Mumbai know how congested that city is, but people get by.
When we were in India, we had an opportunity to interact with her. She was highlighting to us how much she has learned about how much space wastage we have in South Africa because of the open lands that we have and how, over time, in the context of land being a very scarce resource, we should actually be thinking about the use of space. She would want to introduce that approach.
One young woman who is working on the transport project is acquiring skills in transport planning. Again, you know what it is like there and she is working in one of the better functioning cities there. She is looking at how to structure transport and plan for high growth levels. Again, for us, that is also a very relevant skill.
There are some who are in tourism. Most of them are especially in hotels that are owned by Tata. They are in all their hotels in different parts of India. Of course, one of the regular complaints from them is that they are homesick because they are all in different cities. There isn’t a city where there is more than one, but that is part of toughening them up. They must learn to survive wherever they are and they must do well.
But India is not the only country and I think those who are going to Dubai would have left last week. A large number is going into the hospitality industry there. We are also going to send quite a large number to the Netherlands in various fields.
Now, as far as hospitality is concerned, it looks like it is the one area where we would be able to place reasonably higher numbers because the costs are lower. Part of the challenge to us is the cost of accommodation because that tends to be quite expensive. When they are in the hospitality industry, they get offered accommodation because they stay in the hotel, and that enables us to send quite a large number.
We also want to send them to countries that are not English-speaking, because in that industry the issue of language is also quite important. Thanks to South African companies in the United Arab Emirates because they have taken in some of our people for placements in the built environment field. They have also taken engineers, planners and quantity surveyors. Thank you.
Deputy President’s stance on restriction of cheap clothing imports
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Dr P J Rabie (DA) asked the Deputy President:
Whether, given the fact that the crime of treason is punishable by death in a number of countries, she will stand by her statement to the National Economic Development and Labour Council (Nedlac) that the Government will view any attempt to import clothing cheaply from other countries to cushion the blow of restrictions on cheap imports from China as treason (details furnished); if not, why not; if so, on what grounds will this qualify as treason? N1841E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Rabie, there is no death penalty in South Africa. The retailers do not have to worry about that. They should not fear capital punishment. The remark was made within Nedlac and that audience understood the context. I have no intention of saying anything more on this subject. I think we have serious work to do.
Dr P J RABIE: Hon Speaker and hon Deputy President, I am very thankful for the way that you have answered me, but I think treason is quite a serious matter and thought I had to ask you this. On this very day the quotas are issued to the retailers and to the manufacturing sector in this country. There is a fair degree of uncertainty regarding this particular quota. The Governor of the Reserve Bank said that the South African textile manufacturers have no chance against the manufacturers from China. My question to you, Madam Deputy President, is: What is this present government going to do to help our particular textile manufacturers to compete effectively against the global markets, and especially those from China? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is a new question. I thought you were in the treason area. Now that you got rid of that, you are moving the goal posts. Come back with a new question, hon member. You know the rules.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, with all due respect to the Deputy President, that directly follows from this question. It is not a new question.
The SPEAKER: Pardon me for calling on hon Masango from the same party. I now call upon hon Meshoe.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Speaker, in a joint statement last week, Edcon, Truworths, Woolworths, Foschini, Pepkon and Mr Price said restrictions on cheap clothing imports from China imposed by government would have an expected inflationary effect of 20% to 25% or more on prices of some categories of clothing. Several retailers already indicated that they would look to other countries, which would definitely include member states of the Southern African Customs Union, Sacu, for cheap imports to cushion the blow of restrictions on imports from China. Will the Deputy President object to the unrestricted importation of cheap clothing from Sacu members, particularly in the light of the fact that members of the Southern African Customs Union made an agreement that goods between them will be traded free of duty and quotas? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Again, that is a new question. But, anyway, let me just talk to both members in a rather broad motherly manner. [Laughter.]
The challenge about this issue is that we are all, I think, committed to Proudly South African and in that context there are gives and takes. We have to do something to build South Africa’s manufacturing capacity in certain areas where we have a reasonable chance to compete. We need space and time to develop both the skills and the capabilities of the industries which we have lost over time. We have a situation where we have an opportunity to do that, flowing from the agreement that we have with China.
In an ideal world, we would close ranks as South African manufacturers, as retailers, as government, even as consumers, to see how best we can do this in such a way that we create jobs for South Africans and replace some of the industries and the capabilities that we have made. To an extent, therefore, we have tension between ourselves – those who want to create jobs and pockets of the industry. I think that is what all of us should be worried about. How do we break this cycle that expects us to make profit at all costs? We should sacrifice sometimes in order to create opportunities for new jobs in the industries we are in.
Regarding what we are going to do with Sacu, obviously, if Sacu is importing things that are not manufactured within Sacu countries, it’s still a problem. It means they are collaborating with South African importers to cheat us regarding our intention of creating jobs for our region. My guess is as good as yours about the dilemma that we have and about what it is that we need to do in South Africa in order to create a manufacturing base for our country. Thank you. Please, don’t ask me a follow-up question.
Mr S J NJIKELANA: Hon Deputy President, let us look at this initiative from a positive angle. Could you help by giving us a prognosis around this agreement on the basis that, at the occasion when we were interacting within Nedlac, you made reference to the fact that we can actually bring back some jobs if we work as partners, that is partnership between government, manufacturers and retailers?
Secondly, Business Unity SA, Busa, made mention of the fact that there are several alternative routes at a practical level, when it comes to the implementation of the agreement. I take it that those are quite positive pointers, despite the fact that Busa was concerned about the process of formulating and concluding the agreement, and the fact that Cosatu as well has expressed its concerns around the massive imbalances between China and South Africa when it comes to trade. I still feel, hon President, that, with your wisdom, you can help us illustrate the effects as from the day of the implementation of this agreement. What could be your prognosis on this? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The hon member is expecting me to have some wisdom, he should say if he has any. Without making predictions, sangoma-like predictions, the most important thing is about how we are going to try and co-operate and collaborate with manufacturers, retailers, training providers and together try to convince the general public about the opportunity that we have and the importance of making this opportunity work.
If you look at the Western Cape, for instance, which was one of the parts of the country that had a textile industry and KwaZulu-Natal, Pinetown in Durban, some of the skills are still around. And, based on what I have heard from some of the manufacturers, to train people and put them on the machines is not very complicated. Most of those people only need matric in order for them to be up and running. We do have an opportunity to close ranks and move forward, but we are in this hostile environment and atmosphere, which is denying us an opportunity to work together constructively.
As government, we want to work with the industry and we want to see how we can continue to talk to them. We will try to understand some of the genuine challenges that they have. The Minister of Trade and Industry said that he would look at the phasing in of the conditions of the agreement, so that there is no big-bang approach. In general, we cannot unravel the agreement. You know how hard it is to negotiate with the Chinese. We’ve come this far, and negotiating the agreement should have been one of the most difficult things but DTI was able to deliver on that one. Surely, we can do something as members of the public and the industry in order to make this agreement work. For me, what we should be looking for is to try and close the gap in understanding, reduce the hostility among ourselves and try to work together.
Mrs P DE LILLE: Madam Speaker, the ID wants to agree with the sentiment that business should not try to undermine the plan of government to rebuild this embattled clothing and textile industry. But the point that I want to raise is the feminisation of poverty, because most of the people affected by this are women. If we say we want to start again, will there be any help from the government’s side to rebuild some of these factories that had already been closed? Harm has been done and we need to look at a plan whereby mostly women who are affected by this can get back into the mainstream and be retrained. My question is: Would you assist with rebuilding all of those factories that had already been closed? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That’s a new question, but Patricia is my friend. [Interjections.]
It is an important question, hon members. Yes, we always help, as you know. In our work, concerning incentives and industrial strategy, which we are going to talk about in a while, those are some of the problems that we are trying to solve. When we agreed to have clothing and textile as one of the sectors in Asgisa, there were a lot of arguments amongst ourselves about how we were going to do this, because we were losing a lot. At that time, we didn’t think that there was going to be a breakthrough in negotiations with China. Hon Meshoe, faith made us leave the sector there, and there was a breakthrough. Therefore, we have begun to prepare ourselves for the kind of incentives and support that this sector is going to need in the same way as we have been thinking about other sectors that we have within Asgisa. The only difference is that, as far as clothing and textiles are concerned, what we were looking at is saving and reducing the loss of jobs as well as bringing back some of the jobs – not aggressive growth, as we look into other sectors where there are less barriers compared to what we have in clothing and textile. Faith helps, hon member. Thank you. The SPEAKER: Hon members, before I move to the next question, I wish to recognise guests that are in the gallery. It’s a delegation, mainly of women, from Southern Sudan. [Applause.]
Strategies to ensure mainstreaming of Asgisa initiatives and establishment of remedial measures as informed by APRM
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Ms M Madumise (ANC) asked the Deputy President:
Whether, with reference to the Government’s firm decision to make the eradication of poverty and unemployment its core national programme of action, the national departments have firm and implementable strategies to ensure that (a) the initiatives of the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa (Asgisa) are mainstreamed to all departmental programmes and (b) remedial measures, as informed by the African Peer Review Mechanism country self-assessment, have been put in place in order to implement the policy programmes of Asgisa; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N2019E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, hon members, the initiative embodied in the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa is included in the annual reports and programmes of action of departments. These programmes are announced every year by the President during the state of the nation address. Detailed commitment of government in relation to implementation is then posted on the government website for public information. Cabinet gives regular reports on the programmes in relation to what is happening at an implementation level.
Asgisa initiatives are therefore not only mainstream and departmental programmes, but they are also prioritised in the programmes of action of different departments.
With regard to the second question, I wish to first emphasise our appreciation to the people of our country who participated actively in the African Peer Review Mechanism and the country self-assessment. The draft reports of action have come out of this process. It seeks to address some of the fundamental challenges facing our society which were highlighted in that report, some of which are already being addressed through Asgisa.
As members of this House would recall, the country self-assessment report identifies poverty and unemployment as key challenges facing our society. Under its broader programme on economic governance and management, the programme of action arising from the APRM country self-assessment report identified halving poverty and unemployment by 2014 as a critical goal. This is, of course, the fundamental objective of government, which we are planning to achieve through a variety of programmes that are contained in the government-wide programme of action. We should also note the observation made in the country self-assessment report and the programme of action of government, that the issue of scarcity of financial skills and management skills in the Public Service is also cited as a critical challenge. As hon members know, we are busy recruiting for those skills. Some of that work is being done through the Joint Initiative for Priority Skills Acquisition, Jipsa. Thank you.
Ms M MADUMISE: Madam Deputy President, in your media briefing on the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa, in February this year, you acknowledged that there are indeed capacity constraints in certain sectors of government. Can you tell us whether there are any specific intervention programmes being undertaken by our government to capacitate government officials with the sense of leadership in policy development and the implementation of Asgisa initiatives so that government sectors can have an immediate positive impact on having ready access to service delivery by the majority of our poor people?
Also, how is Asgisa contributing to the eradication of poverty and unemployment facing our people? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, hon member, some of the interventions for capacitating our officials include the work that is being done in the SA Management Development Institute, Samdi. As you know, Samdi’s reason for existing is to support and train public servants. It’s now been restructured. It has a new CEO, Prof Mark Orkin.
We also have another programme that is located in the Department of Public Service and Administration, called Siyenza Manje, which got additional funds in the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework last week. This programme recruits retired personnel in the areas where we have a shortage, and we place those people in different municipalities. I must say that they are doing an excellent job. They are mentoring the people in those municipalities, and in some municipalities, they are the core service providers. We do need more, because we have not been able to deploy them in all the municipalities who need them. Therefore, there is an additional drive to recruit more so that we can place them in all of the municipalities who need this service.
Earlier on, I talked about us doing placements, both in South Africa and other countries. Some of the people we are placing actually are from government. We have quite a lot of people from Public Works and from the municipalities in the area of construction.
We also have a programme on project management for middle-level public servants, which we are doing jointly with Samdi and Old Mutual. As we speak, by the end of the year, we would have sent 100 young people to the Old Mutual business school for these young people to gain skills in project management. Already, the feedback that we are getting is that many of them are finding these skills very useful, because they go into the course and do coursework at their desks, and then they go back to their workplaces and are expected to apply the skills that they learned immediately through assignments. They come back to the class, and their lecturers even visit them where they are based in order to look at how they are coping and applying the skills.
On the issue of poverty alleviation and job creation through Asgisa, I think it may be too early for us to claim grand success. Suffice to say that when we begin to implement our policy on business process outsourcing – and we have been able to conclude the kinds of agreements we are negotiating with the potential investors – they will take a lot of young people, especially those that we would have trained ourselves, together with them. So, immediately, that gives jobs to those young people.
The Umsobomvu Youth Fund has also been very active in the placement of unemployed graduates. Again, those who have been taken on board by those companies immediately have jobs – now they are in their thousands – and they are able to start working.
You also have companies like KPMG that we have provided with young unemployed graduates who have skills in finance, and those young people are not only being trained by those companies but they also have an opportunity to become accountants. In fact, those who do well can even become chartered accountants. So, there is a bright future. But, of course, the numbers are still very modest, and we hope to do more, because we see that the private sector has employment.
Our schools, our universities, at the end of the day, are the core institutions to assist us to drive this. What we are doing now is using stop-gap measures while we are supporting and getting these institutions to work optimally.
Lastly, hon member, regarding this programme of co-operatives, all of the people that we are working with there are grassroots people with very limited income. I must also say that it is not as if we created these co- ops ourselves. We found them there, but they were underperforming. What we have simply tried to do, at least with the initial ones, is to improve their performance so that they can create sustainable jobs and they can employ more people. All of them are in the rural areas and, therefore, they immediately respond to the issue of poverty. They are raising goats, they are planting mushrooms, they are in plantations, they are in textile and clothing, and all of those need very basic skills for people to get started and to start earning some income, modest though it might be.
Mr K J MINNIE: Agb Speaker, agb Adjunkpresident … [Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President ] … the hon Minister of Foreign Affairs stated in this House that she is not following the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa, but that Asgisa follows the policy of the Department of Foreign Affairs.
Will the Deputy President therefore explain to the House if this is the common viewpoint in all departments, or whether they are required to adjust their planning and their budgets to advance Asgisa? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The hon member must remember that Asgisa did not fall from the sky.
Asgisa is, if you like, cherry-picking activities of departments that are already in place, and taking them to scale, addressing inefficiencies so that the departments can do certain aspects of their programmes better. It is not new programmes.
So, Asgisa has followed the departments, because we have not created any thing new. In some cases we are working with the departments to find new ways of doing something that was already in their business plan faster and better. In some cases, we are succeeding; in some cases, we are not, but we are not working in isolation. In fact, I don’t have Asgisa staff in the Presidency. The people who are implementing – the Department of Health, the Department of Education, and the Department of Trade and Industry – interact with us regarding highlighting the activities.
It is probably only in Jipsa where we have more or less expanded the secretariat, but the core people who make the Jipsa team work are drawn from departments, industry, trade unions and the academia. So, hon member, yes, I think the hon member was actually stating a correct fact.
Mrs C DUDLEY: Deputy President, while the eradication of poverty and unemployment involves statistics, they also involve people, individuals who need interventions specific to their situation. For this reason, the services of qualified and dedicated social workers are critical and could be used to greater effect in South Africa. For example, in Chile we see municipalities who employ full-time social workers to identify needs and link people with relevant services and job opportunities etc. Do government initiatives include strengthening social services, not only within government, but also within nongovernmental organisations that deliver these services on behalf of government?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, hon member. As you would see, last week, the Minister again gave additional money for us to support the social work profession so that we can have more qualified social workers. Those social workers are not just being trained for government. They should go where they are needed, as long as they stay in South Africa. That’s the main thing.
We do support nongovernmental organisations. We would like them to perform even better. In fact, in the work that we are doing now on addressing the financial skills challenges within government, we also, when we have training opportunities, invite community-based organisations and NGOs to send people, because they also need these financial and project management skills in order to do their work better.
We wouldn’t like to split hairs about the public sector and NGOs, because I think, by and large, our work overlaps, and we are targeting the same constituency. Thank you.
Mr L W GREYLING: Speaker, Deputy President, with reference to the African Peer Review Mechanism, I was privileged to be on the macroeconomic governance committee, so I was privy to some of the debates and policy recommendations that emanated from it. One of the strongest recommendations is that we need a more expansionary fiscal policy, and that we should be looking at increasing our budget deficit from its absurdly low levels.
In this year’s Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, though, we have seen the budget deficit once again come down, and in fact almost become a budget surplus. Deputy President, do you not agree that in our country, with such large social and infrastructural backlogs, it is unjust to be running so close to a budget surplus? Do you not agree that the reason for this is because our government departments can simply not spend the money that they are given? What does the government plan on doing to build the capacity of the state, where vacancies have become the norm, extensively? If the government can’t spend its money, then will it consider giving it to those who can, such as NGOs and community organisations who are, in many cases, delivering on statutory obligations?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Madam Speaker, which question is the hon member dealing with now?
The SPEAKER: He is supposed to be raising a follow-up question.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think that is a new question, hon member.
The SPEAKER: New questions must please be submitted as such.
Mr L W GREYLING: Can I address you on that? It is mentioned in here, around the remedial measures as informed by the African Peer Review Mechanism country self-assessment. So, I am referring to that particularly.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I still think that it’s a new question, hon member. I want to do justice to that question, so don’t smuggle it in.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, let’s submit that question as a stand-alone question.
Timeframe for release of government’s broad industrial strategy, including business process outsourcing and tourism components
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Mr I O Davidson (DA) asked the Deputy President:
When is it anticipated that (a) the Government will release its broad industrial strategy as envisaged by the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa (Asgisa) and (b) the Business Process Outsourcing and Tourism components of the strategy will be released? N1842E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker and my good old friend, hon Davidson, the reply to this question is that the National Industrial Policy Framework has been presented in draft form at a range of forums, including Nedlac where we have taken a bit of time because those members wanted more time to take it back to their constituencies.
The government is currently finalising the draft framework because, at least, on the side of the government we have received most of the inputs that we were seeking. It is expected to be resubmitted to Cabinet before the end of the year. In fact, in this month, November, so that it is on schedule and will be published in 2007.
Regarding the business processing, outsourcing and offshoring, a strategy has been presented to a wide range of stakeholders within government as well as within the private sector and the unions. We have been working very closely with the private sector. As you know, there is a body that brings all the stakeholders together and just focuses on this issue.
The sector support programme has provided a focal point for a concerted effort to enhance South Africa’s competitiveness in this sector. Five streams of work set out in the business plan were approved in August 2005 and in each one of them some work has been initiated. The targeted marketing campaign has been launched. A training programme to train an initial 1 000 and ultimately 30 000 people will increase as the opportunities become obvious.
A training programme to train an initial 1 000 and ultimately 30 000 people has been designated and a proposal for its funding was prepared for the Department of Labour. Minister Mdladlana has assured me that I will get a nice answer from him regarding this issue. Incentive options have been identified and quantified. A quality assurance system has been designated and a proposal for the restructuring of the industry association has been accepted by the industry body. The proposals necessary for the achievement of the objective have also been developed.
Some of the details of what has been produced include a marketing strategy; a database of 120 investors that are at different stages of work regarding their investment; and a South African business process outsourcing, BPO, value proposition at a country level. We have been able to compare our own proposal with those of India, the UK and the USA. We have proposed the following: a lead management team system; incentive framework and concept document for each of the main categories of incentives; a skills development plan, and a work readiness programme for the training of 30 000 people; a business plan for the development of the industry association; quality assurance and standards setting systems for BPO firms; a concept proposal for addressing the needs of the second economy and a draft proposal for the creation of a special purpose vehicle.
The programme has been adapted to fall into three categories: building an enabling environment; attracting and expanding investment; and supporting the second economy. The main expected consequences of this are: to give explicit recognition to the second economy component of the support programme; and to flesh out some of the functions to be performed in that component of the work, if it is to be effective. Before the end of this year, a team that is composed of business, government and other interested parties will be going overseas to market our business plan and, of course, to answer some of the questions that potential investors may be having about the environment in South Africa.
We do have a challenge concerning the cost of telephones. In fact, that is the biggest challenge that we face with the implementation of this strategy but we are working on that as well.
Similar to tourism, a strategy has been agreed on and the industry forum has also been set. It has been working. We have identified, for instance, the number of beds that the country needs. We have identified training and the areas in which we should be training and, because of 2010, in any case, we have been forced to do that quite thoroughly. The department has a team, which is the team that was presented to Fifa and that overlaps quite a bit.
Concerning the placement programme that I was talking about quite earlier on, clearly, most of the people who will benefit from that placement are going to come from the tourism industry because that is where we seem to be making quicker breakthroughs in having opportunities where people can gain experience.
We are implementing aspects of the tourism strategy. And, as you know, we increased the number of visitors that we want to have in South Africa from 7 million to 10 million per annum. And one of the problems that we had to address in order to increase the number of people who can arrive in South Africa was the airlift strategy.
So, we have gone a long way in addressing also the blockages in airlifting and we were just about to conclude. The relevant Ministers will announce what we have decided to do regarding the aspect of airlifts. I thank you.
Mr I O DAVIDSON: Thank you, hon Deputy President, for that very thorough answer. My concern is simply that in February 2006 you laid plans on the table about Asgisa, more particularly; you indicated that the industrial strategy as well as the BPOs on tourism strategies were in the final stages of completion. Its now nine months later and we still only have plans, although it seems to be very thorough plans.
The point of this is that at some stage we have to start implementing these plans. I wonder whether the Deputy President will address this issue in these plans: Have reservations expressed by the Harvard International Development Centre about Asgisa been addressed, more particularly the whole question of stimulating the productive side of the economy, more specifically the export-orientated side, and more specifically even further, that side which encourages job creation?
Secondly, there is the question of savings and the third question regarding the competitiveness, which refers to the whole Chinese situation. I thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, the fact that we have not begun to implement some of our plans does not mean that we are not implementing anything. We are doing the training on BPO, which was part of the resource, and that is implementation. The core people are being employed in the call centres. We are interacting with some investors and some investors are busy processing their investment plans. So, we cannot push the investors to invest much. We don’t have much control over that timetable and that schedule.
So, if you look, for instance, at the markets you will note that a number of jobs in that industry have actually increased ever since we have started working. But as I’m saying, the issue of telecommunications is probably one that will be a deal breaker for most of them and that is the one that I’m very worried about.
We should try and turn that around but actually there are number of investors who have been able to go ahead notwithstanding that. I do want to congratulate the provinces that have decided on their own to take the initiative, as part of implementing the business plan. Gauteng Online is a very aggressive and efficient team of people who, on their own, are rolling out what they can. Calling the Cape, is doing the same and there is another one in KwaZulu-Natal.
As government, we have designated 10 areas in the poorer areas where we are going to locate some of the call centres and where we are asking the investors to invest so that we can create jobs in those poor areas. So, that work is actually going on. Now we are negotiating how we can take these call centres into those areas and, of course, also provide for the training of people in those communities.
So, implementation is happening. We are adapting the plan as we go along. We are starting with the things that we can handle so that we do not come to standstill because of not having all our ducks in a row. Regarding the industrial strategy, we are implementing tourism. That’s why we all have other things that we can talk about what we are doing for 2010.
We are talking about the increase in the number of tourists, because we have not come a standstill. We are implementing and it is also an industrial strategy. If you talk about biofuels, you would probably know that there is a number of new companies in the area of biofuels that are coming along. The departments that are involved in biofuels are also now involved in looking at the regulatory environment that is going to be needed.
There has been a lot of consultation. Consultation is work. Industry has come on board, the farmers have also come on board as well as those that are in the petroleum sector. They are making the necessary adjustment in order for them to be able to implement better.
I take your point about manufacturing. We also feel that we should be pushing. But, again, we also need industries to be the ones that create manufacturing enterprises. We are trying to make the environment as enabling as possible. But, at the end of the day, they have to make the decision about investing in the manufacturing sector, clothing and textile included.
Ms F MAHOMED: Thank you, Deputy President, for your detailed response. Indeed, our country has risen from isolation and has moved on to being integrated into the world economy. We are on track, Deputy President.
I am happy to say that we have enjoyed a remarkable competitive edge, globally, since 1994. I thank you for your charismatic leadership. Deputy President, could you please comment on the National Industrial Policy Framework and say whether it is aligned to the Asgisa strategy?
Further, I hasten to say that the core principles of Asgisa serve as a catalyst for changing the lives of the poorest of the poor and will have a sustainable economic impact on them. I thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, just to give you a sense of the areas and the strategic programmes that we are considering regarding the industrial policy, one of the programmes is looking at the revision of industrial financing, that is where most incentives have been addressed.
We are looking at large-scale customer sector programmes for a limited number of key sectors. We are looking at liberating public sector expenditure. Our infrastructure programme would fall under that programme. We are looking at doing more work on innovation and technology, again, in order to increase the number of “Made in South Africa” goods that go into different industries.
In the infrastructure and construction sector, in particular, we are obviously facing a challenge of having to contain the amount of inputs that we are going to be importing for our infrastructure programme. That, again, changes the bill for construction, if we were too dependent on imported goods.
We are also looking at strengthening the competition policy and dealing with import parity pricing as part of the industrial strategy. We are looking at delivery of finance services to small enterprises hence the consolidation of microfinance, as well as the study that is under way now that is reviewing our development industrial institutions, ie your IDCs, your Khulas and so on. Khula has been more advanced. I think the Minister has already given an indication how we intend to reshape Khula.
Of course, in that strategy, we also addressed regional and African industrial trade frameworks again so that we could enhance the amount of trade that we do with Africa as well as focus on integrated and co- ordinated industrial development within the region and on the continent.
Lastly, we are also looking at strengthening the capacity, organisation and the co-ordination within government. I thank you.
Mr I O DAVIDSON: Chairperson, Deputy President, if I could just raise one issue with you in respect of investment. You spoke about investment needed by particularly the private sector. One of the interesting aspects of the Harvard working paper was that they indicated that in South Africa, as far as the Asgisa is concerned, for every 6% increase in investment, we were looking at 2% increase in growth. So 6% would be to 2% growth, whereas the international norm was quite the opposite. For every 1,7% increase in investment we were getting 6,1% growth. That speaks to productivity. When are we going to start talking about productivity in relation to Asgisa?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think this big talk about skills has to do with productivity because lower productivity has a lot to do with the fact that people are not well equipped. Did you forget that there was apartheid here, that there was Bantu education, that people were underskilled and so on? It takes time to correct that? [Interjections.] No, it’s true hon members. I think it is convenient for you to forget because maybe you were able to benefit from it. But having said that, it is a fact that because we have produced such a limited number of people with technical skills, engineering and so on is a problem for this country.
That is why, for instance, in the work that we are doing in Asgisa, one of the things that we have started with is just to focus on the area of artisans and engineers, because they are great stimulators of jobs. One engineer is able to create employment opportunities for 50 or even, in some cases, 100 other people they actually supervise.
And, if people are effectively supervised then, obviously, you will increase productivity. We have also put this issue of productivity to labour in Nedlac, because we need labour to come on board. Obviously they must also encourage their workers to see productivity as a strength because, through productivity, workers are also able to make the companies that employ them secure their jobs for a much longer time.
Again, hon member, we should not make this a ping-pong issue. It is not an easy thing. It is on our minds and we engage with it. When we talk about skills, it is because we are looking for those skills that will enhance our productivity. In our co-operation with Japan, that is one of the areas in which we have asked them to help. As you know, the productivity rates are very high there. But, also in South Africa, the issue of infrastructure has also been a constraint to some of the companies. That is why we have decided that if industry is not going to invest in infrastructure, then government has to lead in addressing the issue of infrastructure because it also constrains the rates of return to industry. I thank you.
Mr A HARDING: Madam Chair, Madam Deputy President, coming back to the tourism component of the strategy, my question is as follows: Considering the ownership of tourism in this country, where our people are largely relegated to being drivers and being employees inside this industry, to what extent does your strategy propose or envisage changing the face of tourism business ownership in this country?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It is not my strategy, hon member, but it is a government strategy. Regarding changing ownership patterns in the tourism sector, we are also worried about the fact that we do not see enough of our people owning some of the big tourism institutions. In the tourism empowerment charter, a considerable amount of time is given to that aspect of empowerment.
I don’t have the details at my fingertips to see how well we are doing there, but I do know that the Minister has been worried that we are encountering a bit of resistance and the department will have to step in. That is why when the DTI has gazetted the codes and everything we will have the leverage to engage with those industries.
Of course, the issue also has to be looked at from a perspective of access to finance because people have to buy into this. You know, as this side of the House, instead of nationalising people’s industries, we opted for empowerment where people buy their stakes. The burden that it has put on us is that we actually have to find mechanisms to finance people. That’s why it is important that our banks, also in the spirit of inclusiveness, must financially assist those people who are getting into tourism.
I think it is unacceptable that you can really count with the fingers of your one hand the black personalities that are strong in tourism: Jabu Mabuza, Moss Mashishi and two other “laaities”, otherwise there is hardly anybody who has been able to emerge. It’s a problem. The industry has to look into itself.
PEACE AND SECURITY
CLUSTER 1
MINISTERS:
Initiatives to develop skills of inmates and to educate juvenile prisoners
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Ms S Rajbally (MF) asked the Minister of Correctional Services: (1) Whether any initiatives are undertaken together with the Department of Arts and Culture to assist with the rehabilitation and skills development of inmates; if not, why not; if so, what initiatives;
(2) whether any programmes are being run together with the Department of Education to educate juvenile prisoners and offer skills development for adult inmates; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N1984E
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, Madam hon Rajbally, the response is as follows: Yes, there are initiatives that we have undertaken. The Department of Arts and Culture, in partnership with the Department of Correctional Services, is currently running three projects which are Arts Against Crime and Arts Access; Nicro – Department of Arts and Culture; and the Department of Correctional Services Arts and Culture Awards.
The Arts Against Crime project was launched in 2004 in the Kroonstad correctional centre. Arts Access, driven by the Department of Arts and Culture, is to be launched in all regions of the department. The Art Therapy Centre – Lefika La Phodiso, will be running the introductory workshops which aim at selecting suitable correctional officials for the arts therapy course, which includes counselling and will start in 2007.
The training will be conducted in two stages: train the trainers and train offenders. Training will be piloted in all six regions in each of the centres of excellence per region and trained staff of the department will do it. Training will be focused on the following elements: art therapy; performance art; dance; music; theatre; drama; poetry; literature; art instruction in fine art; jewellery-making; craft production; beadwork and mural-making.
At this moment, the Department of Arts and Culture is currently running the Age of Hope poetry competition with an external partner, Kgare ya Africa Women in Arts, Culture and Media, at adult and youth female correction centres to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the women’s march to the Union Buildings that took place in 1956.
Regarding your second part of the question, yes, the department does provide formal education and skills development programmes for the sentenced offenders, which are aimed at improving the educational skills and skills level of offenders. Have I run out of time already, Chairperson?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): You are not; I will tell you if you are.
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I saw you smiling, Chairperson. So, I have to look at you all the time and check.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): You are taking up your time. You have 33 seconds left.
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Mr Selfe, she likes me. Thank you. The following educational programmes are offered. In the general education and training band, programmes offered under this band cover literacy tuition, pre-adult basic education and training and Abet levels one to four. These programmes are offered to both adults and youth. Further education and training programmes offered under this band cover the mainstream education, Grades 10 to 12.
Those who follow Correctional Services will know that last year we had a 100% pass rate for our students who enrolled for matric.
The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: They have lots of time to study.
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: The Minister of Education says it is because they have a lot of time to study. I think she is quite right. Regarding higher education and training, all tertiary qualifications, certificates, diplomas, junior and senior degrees are offered under this band. We have had quite good certification going on with our offenders around the Western Cape.
The following programmes are offered under skills development, kaMdladlana [with special reference to Minister Mdladlana]. Vocational training implies theoretical and practical training in which an offender, upon successful completion, is eligible to be assessed and issued with a qualification by the relevant Sector Education and Training Authority or the Institute for the National Development of Learnerships, Employment Skills and Labour Assessment. This is offered to all categories of offenders.
Basic occupational skills training, entrepreneurial training, computer training and engineering studies are done by our sentenced offenders in all of our centres. Thank you, mama Rajbally.
Ms S RAJBALLY: Madam Chair, I want to say thank you to you hon Minister for your very comprehensive answer. It is always overwhelming to note progress. Government pilot projects are a further affirmation of addressing rehabilitation.
My first question to the hon Minister is: Would there be any form of accreditation for those successfully rehabilitated? My second question is: What initiatives are taken in providing support to such people?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Rajbally, sorry, you may ask one supplementary question.
Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, both are on the same question. It’s just one and two.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): OK, I will allow it if the Minister sees them as related – that question two is related to question one, because that is all I can allow.
Ms S RAJBALLY: Are you allowing me, Madam Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Please, go ahead.
Ms S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, what initiatives are taken towards providing support to those entering the labour market in regard to their skills being utilised? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, hon Rajbally, yes, they are interconnected. Thank you very much for noting the progress that we are engaged in. I do hope that other Members of Parliament can do the same. I know that there are members who really go out and check on all those things. Madam Patricia de Lille is one of those people who does that, and I know that for a fact. I know that James Selfe does that too.
Yes, everything that they get is accredited by the qualifications authority, as we have mentioned here. They then get some form of recognition, which they are given when they leave our correctional centres.
There are initiatives in our reintegration policy to try and get work for them when they come out. We talk to big business and small business, and make sure that they get work. Yesterday I was launching the building of the Kimberley prison. I emphasised in Kimberley that the subcontractor who got the job has to take subcontractors from Kimberley and also be able to employ our former inmates within those subcontractors. It’s something that I am going to be checking on all the time. Thank you very much.
Nkk M L NGWENYA: Sihlalo, ngithi kuNgqongqoshe impendulo yakhe yinhle kakhulu. Kepha, Ngqongqoshe, wawushilo ukuthi ukuqondiswa kwezimilo zeziboshwa akusiyo inkinga yoMnyango Wezobulungiswa kuphela, kodwa kufuneka kube khona ukubambisana ngokusemandleni phakathi kweMinyango kahulumeni. Ngqongqoshe, ake ucacisele le Ndlu ukuthi ngabe eminye iMinyango kahulumeni isisebenze kangakanani ekubuyiseni izimilo zeziboshwa, njengokuhambelana ngokwehlukana kweminyaka yobudala nezidingo zazo? Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Mrs M L NGWENYA: Chairperson, I want to say to the Minister that his response is very good. However, Minister, you said that the rehabilitation of inmates is not the responsibility of your department only, but that there must be collaboration between government departments. Minister, can you tell this House about the progress made thus far by other government departments with regards to the rehabilitation of inmates taking into consideration their ages and their needs? Thank you.]
UMPHATHISWA WEENKONZO ZOLULEKO: Enkosi Mam’uNgwenya. Ayisithi sodwa abasebenza ngalo mba, sincediswa ngamanye amasebe afana nelezeMfundo, iSebe lezoPhuhliso loLuntu, iSebe lezoBugcisa neNkcubeko … (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, Mrs Ngwenya. We are not the only ones who are working on this matter; we are being assisted by other departments like the Department of Education, Social Development and Arts and Culture …]
… as I have mentioned here, and the Department of Justice, who work with us in the cluster to try and make sure … ukuba siyabambisana kwinto esiyenzayo.[… that we work in partnership in what we are doing.]
We have a project or an operation within Correctional Services known as Operation Masibambisane, where we are asking even the municipalities to assist us to make sure that when offenders get out, they really assist us in making sure that offenders are taken in and socially integrated within those communities where they live. I am happy to mention that there are lots of communities, even traditional leaders, who really work with us in this type of thing.
Mam’uNgwenya, we will try by all means to incorporate other departments as much as possible in the work that we do. There are stakeholders like Khulisa, Nicro and other organisations that are working with us. They are also contributing to making sure that izimilo zeziboshwa [the behaviour of prisoners] - I don’t like calling them “iziboshwa” [prisoners], I like calling them offenders - are really looked at properly.
Mr J SELFE: Chairperson, the Minister knows that prisons work where prisoners work. If the purpose of imprisonment is rehabilitation, inmates must either learn or work when they are in prison. Yet, only 14,9% of inmates, according to the annual reports, are involved in any sort of educational programmes and 3,5% of inmates are involved in formal education.
When we went to the King Williams Town prison the other day, there was a classroom and a teacher, but there were no people in the classroom. I think that that is the problem that the Minister of Education needs to take up, because there were people there that should have been subjected to compulsory education but who simply refused to undertake education. When is the Minister going to make it compulsory for inmates to learn or work and to take the necessary enabling steps to make this feasible? Thank you, Chair. The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, it’s a very good question. It’s quite a fantastic question. As you just mentioned, hon Selfe, one of the things that we have noticed is exactly that. But you also have to look at the buildings that we have. Some of them do not comply with what we want to do, hence we are now building this new-generation prisons so that we have classrooms, computer rooms and everything. Some of the old prisons are really a problem, because we have to look at the safety of the members and the safety of the offenders as well.
We are putting together a compulsory policy now. We are talking to the Human Rights Commission because they have raised some issues on making it compulsory for everybody but we are trying our best to overcome that.
There will be a compulsory policy on all education and all programmes so that nobody is lazing around and does nothing within the prisons, starting with the juvenile centres. Not anybody would be allowed, because we will then be using that as an incentive for them to move from one category to the other category and they can look forward to those types of incentives so that they can learn something. You cannot have a person staying in prison for 15 years, coming out and then having learned absolutely nothing. So, help us. When we bring that policy to the portfolio committee you will be there, and you will probably be applauding because we will then be enforcing it from there onwards. Mrs C DUDLEY: Chairperson, hon Minister, are any initiatives being undertaken in collaboration with faith-based organisations to assist with the rehabilitation and skills development of inmates? And do inmates have unfettered access to spiritual instruction and guidance, and what are the relevant details? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Another good question. We do have faith-based organisations working within our correctional centres. In each and every centre we have chaplains. We try and mix our chaplains across all faiths so that it’s not one faith only operating there.
If you look back at the remissions we had, we even had a service where all faiths came together to pray, to do all kinds of things for the prisoners. But, within the centres themselves they are given that chance so that they are able to link up with these faith-based organisations and work with them.
Actually, spiritual or faith-based programmes are the most popular within correctional centres, because some prisoners just want to go into that direction and not consider other programmes that we have. So, if ever you have a chance to visit, please feel free to visit any of our correctional centres. You will be able to pick up immediately when you go in there that there are faith-based organisations operating there. I am always checking on that, even on Sundays, not just the praying and the preaching, but also taking them through some of the spiritual levels that people have to go through.
So, if ever you want to go there, I can give you my biometric card to enter any prison in South Africa. You can enter any prison and check for yourself what is going on. [Interjections.] Do you want it for yourself or do you want to visit? You want to walk into prison and sleep there. Okay, thank you. [Laughter.]
Assistance by SA Police Service to private security personnel involved in cash-in-transit operations
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Ms M M Sotyu (ANC) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:
What assistance will the SA Police Service render to private security companies involved in cash-in-transit operations? N1987E
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, the National Commissioner of the SA Police Service recently held discussions with some unions whose members transport cash around the country. At that meeting, the union leaders were assured that police would help with the training of such security personnel. It is of course the responsibility of the relevant security companies to arm the security guards with the appropriate firearms required for their defence as they perform their duties, subject to the requirements of the Firearms Control Act. Thank you very much.
Ms M M SOTYU: Chairperson, Comrade Minister, we know that a number of private security companies complained about the condition of vehicles used for cash in transit, training, working conditions and other factors associated with their employment. Can the Minister also highlight the responsibility, if any, of the private security companies in the industry and that of those companies that make use of such vehicles?
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: We are working together with businesses in South Africa to deal with all sorts of problems that we have in the fight against crime. We are also discussing with those who are involved in financial institutions in South Africa as well as the private security industry.
There are certain things that we are pointing out and there’s an admission that some of these matters do need to be addressed. The first one is that when you trace, particularly cash-in-transit heists, you must ask yourself this question: How is it possible that anyone, apart from those who handle the money at source, know that there is that amount of money being transported and the routes that the security cash vans are going to take? We believe that we need to address that particular matter. There are certain suggestions that we have which we are discussing with businesses.
The second point is the matter of the vehicles themselves. Those vehicles are not reinforced vehicles or armoured vehicles. They are ordinary kombis that are being used to carry this cash. We are discussing that matter as well.
But, with respect to the security guards themselves, there are certain things we are talking about there, including training them to have a basic understanding of what is happening and the expectations on their part. That will include, of course, training them in the use of firearms. But, it is the security companies that must equip those security guards adequately in order for them to be able to withstand any attacks. We are prepared to do whatever is necessary to ensure that they receive adequate training and that there are measures to deal with their protection as well.
There are companies that have adopted some measures that we would want to suggest. In fact, at some point we want to come back to Parliament and look the Private Security Industry Regulatory Act again to see if we can’t amend it so that there are regulations or minimum standards that can be adopted by some of these security companies to deal with this particular problem. Thank you.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chair, Minister, while one would prefer, for obvious reasons, not to use the army except for cordon-and-search, guarding and border patrol duties, as an interim measure and until longer-term measures are in place – and we would suggest here the training of specialised police units – should we not use the army to guard cash-in-transit vans and, if not, why ever not? The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: As I said before, we are discussing these matters with companies that are involved in the transportation of money in South Africa, allow us to deal with that matter. Calling out the army to do those kinds of functions has problems. Let’s not, by trying to address a particular problem, create more problems for ourselves. Let’s deal with this matter in a way that we believe we should. Therefore, at the moment, we don’t believe that calling out the army will be an appropriate way to address this particular problem. [Interjections.]
Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, I heard you, Minister, saying you are dealing with businesses regarding armoured cars. I’m a little bit sceptical about that, but I wanted to ask you this: If government is dealing with businesses regarding armoured cars, would that not put the police themselves in jeopardy? If that is happening, the private security companies will have armoured cars the way other people have armoured cars. Won’t that put the security of the country in jeopardy per se?
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: No, it wouldn’t, hon Ndlovu. All that would happen is that, and this happens in many countries, the vehicles we use to ferry cash around would be reinforced vehicles. It has nothing to do with armoured vehicles, vis-a-vis for instance, the military or police vehicles. It’s armoured vehicles for purposes … maybe let me not use armoured. It will be reinforced vehicles to ensure therefore that what is happening at the moment does not happen in future. As you are aware, one of the things that happens is that the criminals come with smaller cars and ram them into these vehicles, which then fall over. We are saying that we need reinforced vehicles at least to protect the people; reinforced vehicles that cannot be broken into as is the case today. We need reinforced vehicles that cannot be penetrated by bullets as is the case today.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Chair, hon Minister, even though you are not in favour of using the army to protect the security guards in the interim, the fact is that lives would be protected and something needs to be done urgently in the meantime while you are looking for a solution to the problem. The fact that another cash-in-transit heist took place this morning in Limpopo indicates that, whatever the police have been doing since the meeting between the national commissioner and the representatives of the transport workers’ union, to seems not be producing the desired results. So, what I want to know is: What other action is government planning to take besides training in order to minimise the dangers that transporters of money are subjected to on a daily basis?
Secondly, will the guards be issued with high-calibre weapons to match those that are used by their robbers? Thank you. The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: With respect to the firearms, I’ve already indicated that the security companies have to equip the people that they have employed. It is their responsibility to do that. It is not the responsibility of the government to arm private individuals. It’s not the function of the government.
With respect to your other question, there are some things, hon Meshoe, that we can’t be talking about or discuss openly like this. There are measures that we are looking at to address this particular problem. Among other things, as I said, we are discussing with businesses. We will have a meeting again on Friday which is going to look at some of the things we need to do quickly to deal with some aspects of crime in this country. Thank you.
Targets set by Minister of Safety and Security with regard to crime
reduction
-
Ms D Kohler-Barnard (DA) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:
(1) Whether, in following the example of a number of MECs, he has set his own targets with regard to the reduction of crime; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
(2) whether he will resign if these targets are not met; if not, why not? N2017E
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson … [Interjections.] … I am sorry, the order had changed. Government has set a target of between 7% and 10% annually for the reduction of serious and violent crimes, especially contact crimes. We are working towards those targets. As the annual report of the SA Police Service for the financial year 2005-06 will show, those targets were attained in many types of crime except for murder, rape and indecent assault. I am convinced that, as policing improves in South Africa by way of better training and resources to the police and partnerships that are being forged with many civilian stakeholders, there are going to be more decreases in crime.
Indecent assault was the only crime that in 2001-02 through to 2004-05 went up. It went down marginally in 2005-06. With better policing, that will continue to improve. The downward trend is going to continue. The targets are being met and where this has not happened, it will happen. Thank you.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Mr Minister, in the corporate world, you would be asked to resign if you failed at your job. Now you have, so why does this principle not apply to you and your commissioner?
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Hon Kohler-Barnard, the ANC, as you know, was formed in 1912, and it was only in 1994 that the struggle that the ANC has been involved in eventually triumphed, after 82 years. One of the things that have been key to the prosecution of that struggle has been resilience. All the revolutionaries who were part of the ANC never walked away from the challenges that were posed by apartheid. I am not, as a member of that ANC, going to walk away from the challenges that crime poses in this country. [Applause.]
Ms J E SOSIBO: Minister, we cannot allow criminals and criminal activities to decide who does and who does not become the political head of the fight against crime. What is more important is what we are doing together as law- abiding citizens of South Africa to stop crime. Minister, can you indicate to this House what measures you as the political head have put in place to measure the progress made in the fight against crime, and to ensure that the SA Police Service meets and exceeds its own stated objectives?
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: There are many things that we have done to improve policing in South Africa. That is why the crime levels continue to go down, and that is as a consequence of the things that we have done and we are continuing to do, because we are changing the way that policing is done in order for us to drastically reduce the crimes that are happening in South Africa.
There is evidence that crimes have been reduced drastically in a number of crime types. There are 21 crime types we deal with and many of them decreased except, as I have said, for murder, rape and indecent assault. The reason that these three crime types have not gone down as was contemplated in terms of the targets set by government is the fact that these crimes relate to what we have defined as social crimes. It is crimes, therefore, that happen where the victim and the perpetrator know one another. It is crimes, therefore, that happen in isolation and, in many cases, behind closed doors.
But even that matter is going to be addressed as we continue to put more police officers on the streets for visible policing in what we have defined as sectors. Thank you.
Mr V B NDLOVU: Sihlalo … [Ubuwelewele.] Bengisacela ungikhuzele umsindo. [Chairperson … [Interjections.] Can you call the House to order for me, please.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order, please!
Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, I just wanted to ask the Minister about contact crime. It seems as if it’s going up and not going down, as you have just said. The perception outside – these people don’t have the figures the way we have and the way we discuss it in the portfolio committee - is that contact crime is higher than it is supposed to be. In other words, the people are murdered more easily than is supposed to be the case. How then can we change that perception? That is first question coupled with how and when are we going to see the visibility of the police, because it seems as if the problem we are going to have is that although we won’t have each street with its own police, we must have the police visible on the ground. How are we going to implement that and when?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Minister, I don’t see the link between the last question and the question that is on the Question Paper but feel free to answer it if you wish.
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Yes, Chairperson, let me answer nonetheless. Firstly, it is incorrect to say contact crimes are going up rather than going down. They are going down. What I have said is that murder, which is one of the contact crimes; rape which is one of the contact crimes; and indecent assault, one of the contact crimes, have not gone down into the category of the targeted 7% to 10%. But they went down, nonetheless.
I know that the issue of statistics is an issue that gets discussed this or the other way all the time. That is happening in many countries. It has been happening over many years. Two people can at times read statistics differently but, in the police, what happens is that we take the statistics of the reports that go to the police stations as they are recorded there. We take statistics from there and, of course, the only way in which the public, in the end, will have an understanding about that is when we engage and talk about these things all the time.
By restructuring, we are trying to resolve the issue of visibility on the ground and, as we shift, therefore, there will be more resources on the ground. There are going to be more police officials who are going to be in the sectors that we have created. Therefore that visibility will be there and everybody will see it. We have already done that in a number of areas. But you are correct, more needs to be done for purposes of providing our people with better safety and security measures. Thank you.
Mr A HARDING: Madam Chair and Minister, on the issue of statistics, it was recently reported that cash-in-transit heists were up to 74%. Now, given that kind of statistic and given the particularly violent nature of these crimes, has the time not perhaps come to establish a special unit inside the SAPS to deal specifically with cash-in-transit heists?
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: There is such a unit that has been established. In fact, there are a number of operations that we talk about that the police are involved in, and those operations are being done on the basis of those special units. One of them is called Operation Greed, which deals specifically with cash-in-transit heists and bank robberies.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Minister, it seems very much that this question was supposed to have been answered previously, and that it does not link to the issue of targets. Thank you very much. There is then a further opportunity for a follow-up question.
Mr A HARDING: Madam Chair, can I address you on that? The question was asked specifically in relation to crime statistics and the operational word that I used in my question centred around statistics.
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: I just want to give you some statistics to show what we have been able to do. I have been giving these statistics in the House but I want to give you an update. As from 15 July to 15 October, in the past three months, we arrested 456 suspects involved in 318 cases, people who have been involved in serious and violent crimes like murder, attempted murder, rape, hijacking and armed robberies.
Those arrests were effected by this special unit we are talking about but that’s not the total number for the three months. The entire total, if you take other crimes that these people have committed, is 1 192 suspects arrested in connection with 1 508 cases. A number of these suspects are people who are repeat offenders involved in up to three cases, again serious and violent cases. Some of them are people against whom warrants of arrest were issued. For instance, 287 of them were involved in 456 cases. All of this, in three months, has been done by these dedicated detectives who are part of these units that deal with matters like this, including, as I said, a dedicated unit that deals with bank robberies and cash-in-transit heists. Thank you.
Mechanisms to keep juveniles awaiting trial for petty offences out of
prison
-
Mr D V Bloem (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:
(1) Whether, with reference to the Inspecting Judge’s annual report on the need to keep children away from prison unless exceptional circumstances dictate, any mechanisms are in place to ensure that only those children who have committed serious offences are in prison, taking into account each specific case; if not, why not; if so, what mechanisms;
(2) whether any inter-departmental mechanisms are in place to keep out of prison juveniles awaiting trial for petty offences, taking into account the need for a holistic approach to the problem; if not, why not; if so, what mechanisms? N1995E
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, yes, hon Bloem, there are mechanisms in place to ensure that children are kept away from prisons. It’s one of those things that are very painful when one goes to a prison and you see children there. The Deputy Minister of Correctional Services is seized with the task of making sure that we get children out of prison.
The intersectoral committee has been established to ensure an integrated approach in the removal of children from the correctional facilities. The Department of Correctional Services has developed a matrix system that indicates the name of the child, registration number, gender, age, nature of the crime, date of admission, date of appearance in court, name of the court and the magisterial area.
The developed matrix assists us with the identification of children who have committed petty crimes and those who have committed serious offences. The information, according to the matrix, is then submitted monthly to the Department of Social Development, and the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development.
The Department of Social Development’s probation officers conduct assessments and compile pre-sentence reports for alternative placement of the children, such as home-based supervision and referral to secure care facilities.
Incidentally, today, hon member Bloem, I got a letter from the MEC for social services and poverty alleviation telling me exactly where some of these children go to, and I will make the copy of this letter available to you. We have reached an agreement with the Department of Education that children who are designated to reform schools be removed timeously from correctional centres.
With regard to the second question, yes, the interdepartmental mechanisms are in place. Presentations were made by us to the magistrates in all the provinces in order to put up mechanisms for the removal of children from our centres, as well as identifying challenges and coming up with solutions for speeding up the process.
We have also established a task team on the management of awaiting-trial detainees with the aim of reducing the overpopulation of awaiting trials. The draft policy on the management of awaiting-trial detainees has been developed by my department.
The Department of Social Development renders diversion programmes that prevent children from entering the criminal justice system. The discussions were held between my department and that of hon Zola Skweyiya, and heads from provinces, to identify services that are age-appropriate for the different categories of children. Thank you very much.
Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, Minister, it will always be a serious concern for all of us to see so many children in our prisons. I am sure that the Minister will agree with me that the serious overcrowding makes it more urgent that we find alternative accommodation for these children, outside of prisons. Thank you. The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, it will always be quite a terrible thing to keep children in prison, but I think one of the things that we need to emphasise is the issue of family units. Family units are very important in helping us to divert and make sure that these children don’t commit offences.
Again, I would like to issue a clear invitation to members that they should please go to these prisons and check for themselves how bad the situation of overcrowding is. Finding 14-year-olds and 15-year-olds in prison does break one’s heart as an adult, and for an adult who is also a father or a mother to see them there is really heartbreaking.
I do hope that we can have that kind of empathy to go and visit the children, talk to the magistrates and try to get these kids out of prison.
Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: Chairperson, if we want to arrest the vicious cycle of re-offending, hon Minister, we must keep children charged with petty offences as, you said, out prison or out of our correctional services, to be politically correct. We must adopt a more holistic approach.
Surely, the long-term solution lies in the passing of the Child Justice Bill that has been delayed, for some reasons, for far too long. What steps will the hon Minister take as a member of the relevant Cabinet cluster to facilitate the speedy passage of this Bill, which will go a long way in addressing the problem?
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, I want to say to the hon Shah my understanding is very simple. I sit in a cluster with other Ministers and I do know what’s going on within the justice system. They do know what’s going on with Correctional Services. I am not in the business of pushing my colleagues or sitting on them, as you can see if I do sit on them it would cause chaos. So, I try not to be pushy, but to be very polite to my colleagues and work with them very closely.
So, there is that close working relationship and we will keep on trying our best to make it very easy for us to work together. Regarding the issue of a holistic approach, that is the kind of holistic approach we want in the cluster and we have it.
Lastly, it’s very painful – again I repeat this – when we were in Oudtshoorn the other day with the Deputy Minister, on our way to Beaufort West, and we passed by the juvenile centre there. And, again we got to see those 15-year-olds and 16-year-olds. When I phoned the family wanting to know why the child was there, the family told me: Please, Mr Balfour, keep him there. There are young women who are in that prison and are expecting babies. It really breaks one’s heart to go and see such things.
However, it’s up to us as the leadership of Parliament, and the leadership of Correctional Services and the criminal justice system to make sure that the systems do work. At the moment I have that view that we are getting there; the systems are beginning to get moving and we will eventually have that holistic approach.
Mrs S A SEATON: Chairperson, thank you Minister for your answers. Yes, it is indeed a very sad situation when juveniles are in prison. Obviously the department is doing what it can but there is still a very serious concern, specifically with the awaiting-trial juveniles, more specifically because these juveniles do not receive any education while they are awaiting trial.
We know that there are many juveniles that have been sitting there for many more than nine months, some of them as long as 18 months. Don’t you think that it is time that legislation was passed? And this is where I think you should, perhaps, use your weight, Minister, to sit on your colleagues … [Laughter.] Is it not time that legislation be changed so that individual juveniles may not be imprisoned for longer than three months without being brought to trial and to be able to sort this out? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, Madam Seaton, I know that you are one of the people who care quite a lot about what’s going on with these children. When they are on trial it takes longer and they don’t get any education, but what I clearly got today from the MEC Mqulwana is that when they are on trial she will be able to provide them with education, sports and recreation. She clearly mentioned all kinds of programmes that she will put them through.
Sometimes there are delays in the system and it is really frustrating when one sees these delays but we are trying to address that, with my colleagues in the criminal justice system. I don’t for a moment believe that it is the legislation that is the problem. The problem is the case flows that are not going through quickly enough. I do work with them and there are areas in Hatfield where they are doing very well. There is also a system in Port Elizabeth which is working very well. We are beginning to pilot these programmes into other areas so that these juveniles are out of the system on time.
However, when one sees them having been there for a year or two, it pains one, because one would want either the closure of the case or the start of the sentence for whoever is sentenced so that they don’t live in limbo for a very long time. But we are trying our best. I am telling you, it’s not an easy thing.
I have said it in this House many times that Correctional Services is a challenge and it needs a tough cookie to be able to get that challenge going. And I know I am still tough and not soft yet. [Interjections.]
Mrs P DE LILLE: Chairperson, hon Minister, I have been at this since 17 July 2000, when I got that court order, case number 1 530 from the High Court against five Ministers. I must say that during my last visit, on 11 September, conditions had improved. It is much cleaner but the overcrowding is the cause of all the problems. On that day, you had 1 141 between the ages of 17 and 20, and another 93 between the ages of 14 and 17.
Subsequently, I have had a meeting with the Legal Aid Board and I will be meeting with you on 7 November, and also with the Inspecting Judge. Of course, I want to agree with you that more MPs must go up there and also use whatever means. My question is really that we have been talking a lot about this interdepartmental working together, but still the magistrates don’t do their job because they don’t enquire … [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, your time for asking a question has expired. Hon Minister, there was no question.
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, you see, when you are a politician and you are given a chance to speak, please speak.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): In this House we go according to the Rules, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, it’s just a comment. [Laughter.] You are quite correct, hon De Lille. You have seen that there is some improvement. We have tried to put some wheels into motion about this. You visited the Legal Aid Board and we have a very good relationship with the law society. I have visited with them so that they can see for themselves what’s going on, and they are doing that. I am quite happy with that but we still need to move more speedily to address some of these.
We have been talking about it and we are doing something about it as well. I cannot, for the life of me, say anything against magistrates standing here. I can’t. I always have to talk to the Deputy Ministers and the Minister and then try and get them to get things moving. [Interjections.] Chairperson, I need your protection. These members are calling me “a koeksister”. [Laughter.] I need your protection.
Ek is nie ’n koeksister nie. ’n Koeksister is nie so groot soos ek nie. En ek is ook nie ’n vetkoek nie. [Gelag.] [I am not a koeksister. A koeksister is not as big as I am. And neither am I a vetkoek. [Laughter.]]
So, we are looking into all those things, hon De Lille. Thank you very much.
See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mr E W TRENT: Chair, I hereby give notice that I intend moving the following motion:
That this House—
1) noting that an all-time high of ten qualified or worse audit
opinions were issued by the Office of the Auditor-General to the
government departments; and
2) resolves to debate what steps should be taken to hold the
responsible Ministers accountable.
Mr K J MINNIE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I intend moving the following motion: That this House —
1) notes that the pensioners of the Transnet Second Defined Benefit
Fund had not received any increases above the statutory 2% provided
for in the past five years; and
2) debates the need for special measures to address the income
shortfall that has developed for members of the TSDBF.
The House adjourned at 17:07. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
THURSDAY, 26 OCTOBER 2006
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly
The Speaker
- Referral to Committees of papers tabled
1. The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Arts and Culture for consideration and report:
a) Convention on the Protection and Promotion of the Diversity of
Cultural Expressions, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the
Constitution, 1996.
b) Explanatory Memorandum to the Convention on the Protection and
Promotion of the Diversity of Cultural Expression.
2. The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Justice and Constitutional Development for consideration:
a) A report on the withholding of remuneration of Mr M Matereke,
an additional magistrate at the Magistrates Court,
Johannesburg, who is under provisional suspension, in terms of
section 13(4A)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of
1993).
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
- The Minister of Finance
a) Government Notice No 1035 published in Government Gazette No 29299
dated 13 October 2006: Third Reporting Exemption in terms of
section 74 of the Financial Intelligence Centre Act, 2001 (Act No
38 of 2001).
- The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development a) Report of the Auditor-General on the summary of statements of monies kept in trust in the Guardian’s Funds for the year ended 31 March 2004.
b) Government Notice No R.605 published in Government Gazette No 28942
dated 15 June 2006: Commission of Inquiry to conduct an
investigation into the alleged illicit activities of certain South
African companies or individuals relating to the United Nations Oil-
For-Food Programme in Iraq: Extension of period to report, in terms
of the Commissions Act, 1947 (Act No 8 of 1947).
FRIDAY, 27 OCTOBER 2006
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
- The Minister of Finance
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the Office of the Ombud for
Financial Services Providers for 2005-2006, including the Report of
the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006.
b) Report and Financial Statements of the Government Employees Pension
Fund (GEPF) for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Independent
Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP 211-2006].
- The Minister for Public Enterprises
a) Report and Financial Statements of Denel Proprietary Limited for
2005-2006, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
Financial Statements for 2005-2006.
- The Minister of Trade and Industry
a) Free Trade Agreement between the European Free Trade Association
(EFTA) and the Southern African Customs Union (SACU), tabled in
terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.
b) Explanatory Memorandum to the Free Trade Agreement between the
European Free Trade Association (EFTA) and the Southern African
Customs Union (SACU).
- The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs
a) Memorandum of Understanding on the Trilateral and Allied Fields
between the Governments of the Republic of South Africa, the
Federal Republic of Brazil and the Republic of India under the
India-Brazil-South Africa (IBSA) Dialogue Forum, tabled in terms of
section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.
National Assembly
- The Acting Speaker
FIRST REPORT OF THE RULES COMMITTEE OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, 2006
Pursuant to a meeting of the Rules Committee on 11 October 2006, co-
chaired by House Chairpersons Mr G Q M Doidge and Mr K O Bapela, Mr
Doidge on behalf of the Speaker presents the First Report of the Rules
Committee of the National Assembly dated 11 October 2006, as follows:
A. Rule amendments: House Chairpersons
The Committee having considered rule amendments resulting from the
establishment of the posts of House Chairpersons recommends that the
indicated rules or subrules be amended as follows:
Rule 14 pertaining to the Election of other presiding officers be
substituted by:
14. (1) This House must elect three members as House Chairpersons
for the duration of the House.
(2) The Speaker must allocate functions and responsibilities
to the House Chairpersons and announce such allocations in the ATC.
Rule 15 pertaining to the Relief of Speaker be substituted by:
15. The Deputy Speaker or a House Chairperson must preside during a
sitting of the House whenever requested to do so by the Speaker.
Subrule 16(2) pertaining to the Absence of Speaker be substituted by:
16. (2) Whenever both the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker are
absent or unable to perform the functions of the Office of Speaker, the
Speaker or, if the Speaker is not available, the Deputy Speaker, must
designate one of the House Chairpersons to act as Speaker.
Rule 17 pertaining to the Continued absence of Speaker and Deputy
Speaker be substituted by:
17. Whenever this House has been informed of the likelihood of the
continued absence of both the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker for longer
than seven consecutive parliamentary working days, this House may
appoint a member to act as House Chairperson while the House
Chairperson so designated acts as Speaker, until the Speaker or the
Deputy Speaker becomes available or this House decides otherwise.
Rule 37 pertaining to the Chairperson [of an appropriation committee]
be substituted by:
37. The Chair of an appropriation committee may be taken by a House
Chairperson or a member appointed by the Speaker for that purpose.
Rule 159 pertaining to the Composition [of Rules Committee] be
substituted by:
159. The Rules Committee consists of – a) the Speaker; b) the Deputy Speaker; c) the House Chairpersons; and d) no more than 50 other members appointed by the Speaker.
Subrule 163 (1) pertaining to Policy matters requiring decision during
recess be substituted by:
163. (1) If during a recess a matter of policy arises that requires
a Rules Committee decision but cannot await finalisation when
the session resumes, the Speaker may convene a meeting of those
of the following office-bearers who are available to decide on
the matter:
a) the Speaker;
b) the Deputy Speaker;
c) the House Chairpersons;
d) the Chief Whip;
e) the Deputy Chief Whip of the majority party;
f) the chairperson of the relevant Subcommittee of the Rules
Committee under whose jurisdiction the matter in question falls;
g) the most senior whip of each of the other parties in the
Assembly or alternate of such whip; and
(h) a committee chairperson designated by the Committee of
Chairpersons.
Rule 178 pertaining to the Composition [of the Subcommittee on
International Relations] be substituted by:
178. The Subcommittee on International Relations consists of –
a) the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker;
b) the House Chairperson designated by the Speaker;
c) three members of the majority party in the Assembly;
d) one member from each of the three largest minority parties in
the Assembly;
e) one member from each of two of the other minority parties in the
Assembly;
f) one member from the Portfolio Committee on Foreign Affairs
designated by the committee; and
g) three chairpersons of Assembly committees designate by the
Committee of Chairpersons.
Subrule 188 (1) pertaining to the Composition [of the Programme
Committee] be substituted by:
188. (1) The Programme Committee consists of -
a) the Speaker;
b) the Deputy Speaker;
c) the Leader of Government Business;
d) the House Chairpersons;
e) the Chief Whip;
f) the Deputy Chief Whip of the majority party in the Assembly;
g) the whip of the majority party responsible for programming;
h) another two whips of the majority party designated by that
party;
i) one whip and two additional representatives of the largest
minority party in the Assembly designated by that party;
j) one whip and one additional representative of the second largest
minority party in the Assembly designated by that party; and
k) one whip of each of the other minority parties in the Assembly
designated by the party concerned.
Subrule 196 (1) pertaining to the Composition [of the Committee of
Chairpersons] be substituted by:
196. (1) The Committee of Chairpersons consists of –
a) the House Chairpersons; and
b) the chairperson of each Assembly committee and each Assembly
member who is a chairperson or co-chairperson of a joint
committee, or an Assembly member of the committee designated by
the chairperson.
Subrule 197 (1) and (2) pertaining to the Chairperson [of the Committee
of Chairpersons] be substituted by:
197. (1) The House Chairperson designated by the Speaker presides
at meetings of the Committee of Chairpersons.
(2) If the designated House Chairperson is not available another
House Chairperson may preside at a meeting of the Committee.
Rule 218 pertaining to the Composition [of the Chief Whips’ Forum] be
amended as follows:
Subrule 218 (1) be substituted by:
218(1) The Chief Whips' Forum consists of – a) the House Chairpersons; b) the Chief Whip c) the Deputy Chief Whip of the majority party d) the most senior whip of each of the other parties represented in the
Assembly; and e) a committee chairperson designated by the Committee of Chairpersons.
New subrule 218(2) be added as follows:
(2) The Speaker and the Deputy Speaker may attend meetings of the
Forum or designate someone to attend on their behalf.
The numbering of existing Subrules 218(2) and 218(3) be adjusted to
218(3 and 218(4).
Rule 224 pertaining to the Scheduling function of Chairperson of
Committees be substituted by:
Scheduling function of the designated House Chairperson
224. The House Chairperson designated by the Speaker must implement
any policy, directive or guideline on the scheduling and co-ordination
of meetings of all committees and subcommittees.
B. Memorandum of Understanding
The Committee recommends that:
The Memorandum of Understanding on the establishment of a Regular
Exchange Mechanism between the National Assembly of South Africa and
the National People’s Congress of the People’s Republic of China, which
was tabled and referred to the Committee in accordance with the
resolution adopted by the House on 20 September 2006, be ratified by
the House (see Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 6 October
2006, p 2123).
Report to be considered.
___________________________ ____________________
G Q M Doidge, MP Date
Acting Speaker
MONDAY, 30 OCTOBER 2006
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
- The Minister of Defence
(a) Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the
Republic of South Africa and the African Union Contributing
Resources to the African Union Mission in Burundi (AMIB), tabled
in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.
(b) Explanatory Memorandum to the Memorandum of Understanding
between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the
African Union Contributing Resources to the African Union Mission
in Burundi (AMIB).
c) Protocol between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and
the Government of the Republic of Angola on Defence Cooperation,
tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.
d) Explanatory Memorandum to the Protocol between the Government of
the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of
Angola on Defence Cooperation.
e) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
and the Government of the Republic of Belarus on Military-Technical
Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution,
1996.
f) Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement between the Government of
the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of
Belarus on Military-Technical Cooperation.
g) Agreement between The Republic of South Africa and the Kingdom of
Belgium on A Military Partnership, tabled in terms of section
231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.
h) Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement between the Republic of
South Africa and the Kingdom of Belgium on A Military Partnership.
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Assembly
- Report on the Study Tour by the Portfolio Committee on Social Development to Australia (07-11 August 2006), dated 25 October 2006:
Having undertaken a study tour to Australia on social security related
matters on 07-11 August 2006, the Portfolio Committee on Social
Development reports:
1. Background
In the year 2003, the Portfolio Committee on Social Development was
tasked to legislate for the establishment of the new South African
Social Security Agency (SASSA), which would over time assume the
responsibility of payment and administration of social grants. The
establishment of SASSA was necessitated by the severe weaknesses in the
management and administration of social grants often resulting in a
failure on the part of government to ensure that those entitled to the
benefit were provided with the best possible service. This continued to
lead to ongoing litigation and substantial negative publicity in the
press.
SASSA is a Cabinet-endorsed focused and specialized institution that is
meant to take responsibility for the management and delivery of social
grants. Its strategic intent is to facilitate improvement in the quality
of services provided to beneficiaries and ensure that the minimum
standards operate countrywide, for consistent and predictable service
delivery. This, it is hoped will lead to efficiency gains which will
manifest themselves in the reduction in the cost of service delivery as
well as the drastic minimization of fraud associated with social grant
administration and payment. The establishment of the Agency will have
far reaching implications, requiring expert management of people,
structures and processes.
Subsequent to passing the SASSA legislation in 2003, our committee
could, sadly, not effectively interact with the provincial and local
government stakeholders on some of the unfolding developments leading up
to the establishment of such an Agency as it was hamstrung by the work
on the recently finalized Children and Older Persons’ Bill in the years
2004 and 2005 (first half). Given the breathing space at its disposal at
the moment resulting from the conclusion of the committee’s legislative
work in June 2005 and also as a gesture of its commitment to wanting to
contribute towards ensuring that transition from the old to a new grant
administration dispensation takes place as envisaged, the Committee
adopted a proactive approach and visited the province of North West on
01-05 August 2005.
The visit was in sync with our Committee’s oversight role. It was
intricately linked to our Committee’s mission of reviewing, developing
and monitoring the implementation of appropriate legislation that
responds to the social development needs of the people and that assists
in reducing poverty and social exclusion, and ensuring public
participation. Also ensuring that the policies and social development
services implemented by Government are focused on comprehensive
protection against vulnerability and on strengthening the social fabric.
Prior and subsequent to the visit to North West our committee had
facilitated a number of interactions with officials from the social
security branch in the national Department of Social Development and
South African Social Security Agency on such pertinent issues as the
reporting mechanism of SASSA to Parliament, SASSA’s Business Plan as
well progress made and challenges currently experienced with regard to
its rollout plan and its general transitional arrangements; update on
the Human Resource issues one of which was the issue of the transfer of
staff and assets.
Having been to provinces and also interacted with SASSA officials, the
committee then took stock of its own capacity to exercise effective
oversight over SASSA and arrived at a conclusion that its ability and
skill to exercise effective oversight over SASSA could be better
strengthened and sharpened if it could, among other things, visit, among
other institutions, Centrelink in Australia and look at what they have
to offer at operational and policy level. Moreover, to explore the
systems that Australia has in place in governing how institutions like
Centrelink interface and account to the Australian Parliament and the
inherent challenges characterizing this relationship. The committee’s
view was that whatever experiential knowledge it gathered during its
study tour in Australia, it would use it to strengthen its oversight arm
in its relationship with the recently established South African Social
Security Agency.
2. Delegation
- Tshivhase, Ms T.J (Chairperson and delegation leader)
- Direko, Ms W.I (MP)
- Masutha, Mr M.T (MP)
- Waters, Mr M. (MP)
- Fukula, Mr M (Committee Secretary)
3. Summary
Committee’s delegation led by Mrs TJ Tshivhase undertook a fruitful
study tour to Australia, on 07-11 August 2006. The delegation had
Canberra, the capital town of Australia as its base. It met and
interacted with various Australian stakeholders connected to, in one way
or another, social security system, ranging from Members of Parliament
to various state Agencies’ officials. Furthermore, it visited a
Centrelink Customer Service Centre in Belconnen, to have a first-hand
experience of how this front line office was dealing with social
security clients or customers, as they are known in Australia. This
proved to be quite a useful site visit.
Some interesting innovations and devices caught the eye of our
delegation. One of those is Centrepay, a free direct bill-paying service
offered to customers receiving money from Centrelink. The other one was
the Child Support Scheme administered by the Child Support Agency. The
Child Support Scheme was introduced in the late 1980s to address the
problem that, following separation, most non-resident parents (mostly
fathers) were providing little, if any, financial support to their
children, even where court orders had been made, with consequent high
levels of child poverty and high costs to the public purse.
Another useful innovation that could be explored further was the access
card, which is touted as a major breakthrough in the efforts to ensure
different data interface and thus guarantee data integrity. This card
will be used as a single form of identification for accessing, among
other things, health as well as the social security services.
Below is a list of some of the activities from our delegation’s
itinerary:
Meeting: Department of Families, Community Services and Indigenous
Affairs (FACSIA)
Visit to Belconnen Centrelink Customer Service Centre
Visit to Centrelink National Support Office: Meeting with Deputy CEO,
CIO John Wadeson
Meeting with Chair and Members of the Standing Committee on Family and
Human Services
Meeting with the Chair and members of the Senate Finance and Public
Accounts Committee
Meeting: Ms Annette Ellis MP, Deputy Chair of the Australian - South
Africa, Parliamentary group
✓ Meeting; Child Support Agency
4. PURPOSE OF THE OVERSIGHT VISIT
✓ To explore how Centrelink ‘s operational systems
✓ To look at what oversight responsibility Parliament in Australia
has over its centralized social security agency similar to our South
African Social Security Agency (SASSA).
✓ To see how the centralized social security agency relates to
Parliament in Australia.
✓ To interact with Members of Parliament in Australia on the future
political, social and economic as well as strategic thinking in
respect of its centralized social security agency.
✓ To look at challenges facing Australia’s centralized social
security agency.
✓ Lessons from Australia for South Africa
5. Meeting with FACSIA – Monday, 07 August 2006
Delegation met with representatives from the Department of Families,
Community Services and Indigenous Affairs (FACSIA). The purpose was
mainly to check the kind of a relationship FACSIA has with the
Centrelink.
FACSIA was established in October 2004 to improve the development,
delivery and coordination of Australian Government social and health-
related services. It brings together six agencies, the Child Support
Agency, Commonwealth Rehabilitation Services (Australia), Centrelink,
the Health Insurance Commission, Australian Hearing and Health Services
Australia.
FACSIA is responsible for a wide range of programs and services for
individuals, families and communities, including social support for
seniors, people with disabilities, carers, youth and women. In addition,
it has responsibility for childcare, housing and Indigenous affairs.
FACSIA is the Australian government's principal source of advice on
social policy issues. It is however not the sole custodian of this
function. It shares it with other government and non-government
organisations. Although It develops the social security policy, It is
however not responsible for overseeing the actual day-to-day
administration of the social security system in Australia.
In its interaction with the FACSIA representatives, our delegation was
told of an interesting future policy innovative in the form of an access
card. It is touted as a major breakthrough in the efforts to ensure data
interface and thus guarantee data integrity. This card will be used as a
single form of identification for accessing, among other things, health
as well as the social security services.
Our delegation heard that there were few cases of fraud or corruption
from officials working within the FACSIA.
6. Meeting with Centrelink officials – Tuesday, 08 August 2006
Delegation met with Mr John Wadeson, Deputy CEO and Chief Information
Officer from Centrelink’s National Support Office. The crux of our
delegation’s meeting with Mr Wadeson dwelled more on what Centrelink was
all about including the services it is offering.
6.1 Background information on Centrelink
Centrelink is a service provider to over 6.4 customers, including
retired people, families, sole parents, people looking for work, people
with a short-term incapacity, people with a disability, students, young
people, indigenous people and people from diverse cultural and
linguistic backgrounds.
Its vision is reportedly to make positive difference to Australian
individuals, families and communities particularly during transitional
periods in their lives.
It has one government directed outcome, which is ‘effective delivery of
Australian services to eligible customers. This outcome is to be
supported by the output ‘efficient delivery of services to eligible
customers.
Centrelink generates its revenue through Business Partnership Agreements
or similar arrangements with client agencies. Funds are appropriated to
the policy agencies and paid to Centrelink in return for specified
services.
Centrelink delivers services on behalf of about 25 client agencies.
These cover a wide range of outputs in the form of products and
services.
It seeks to build a stronger community by:
✓ Simplifying access to government services by providing a single
entry point;
✓ Providing innovative and personalized services, opportunities
and support that are culturally appropriate, during key life
events;
✓ Maintaining a high level of customer service, while ensuring
strong accountability to stakeholders; and
✓ Building quality relationships with our stakeholders to
continually improve the social well being of Australian society.
6.2 Centrelink’s business at a glance
✓ It has about 6, 5 million customers.
✓ It has over 1000 service delivery points nationally.
✓ It administers over 63 billion Australian dollars in program
payments annually.
✓ It receives about 28 million phone calls annually.
✓ It sends approximately 90, 6 million letters to customers annually.
✓ Grant payments are made fortnightly into a bank account. Those in
rural areas, get a cheque payment.
6.3 Centrelink’s Information Technology environment
✓ 25000 staff users all connected to the same Centrelink system.
✓ About 1, 9 million customers registered for self-service online or
telephone service.
✓ Interactive voice response facility in all Centrelink call centres.
6.4 Centrelink’s current focus
✓ Improved and innovative customer service applications for face-to-
face and online customer channels.
✓ Infrastructure enhancements to support expanded service
requirements.
✓ Better linking and collaboration with other government and
businesses.
✓ Welfare-to-work
6.5 Reporting of employment income and customer death
✓ Verification of employment income is done in conjunction with the
Tax Office.
✓ When a customer dies, the relevant department notifies Centrelink
automatically.
6.6 Interesting Centrelink’s self-service transaction innovation –
Centrepay
This is a free direct bill-paying service offered to customers receiving
money from Centrelink. Grant beneficiaries can through Centrepay choose
to pay bills by having a regular amount deducted from your Centrelink
payment.
Centrepay is voluntary. Customers who choose to use Centrepay benefit
from its convenience and security, knowing that their payments are under
control. Instead of having large bills every month or quarter customers’
bills are paid in manageable amounts from the customers’ grant payment,
making it easier for them to budget Centrelink, however, has to approve
the institution to which the money is paid. It also has the right to
curb the advance payment.
Centrepay does not charge a customer any fee to deduct the money from
his/her payment, unlike other methods available for paying bills.
However, the organization or person to which Centrepay sends the
deduction is charged a fee.
Because the service is voluntary, a beneficiary can manage, suspend or
cancel the deduction at any time.
7. Visit to Belconnen Centrelink Customer Service Centre – Tuesday,
08 August 2006
Our delegation visited the Belconnen Centrelink Customer Service Centre.
This is a frontline office catering for day-to-day needs of Centrelink
clients.
The Centre is equipped with, among other things, the following
interesting resources:
✓ A job-search machine with a data base of all jobs available in
Australia. The job search is free service.
✓ A free public telephone line for job enquiries.
✓ Social workers on hand.
✓ Job capacity assessors – looking at people’s needs and doing job
placements.
✓ Customer Relations Line for customers with problems.
✓ Queue management system.
8. Meeting with the Chairperson and members of the Senate Standing
Committee on Finance and Public Administration – Thursday, 10 August
2006.
Delegation met with this committee with the same the view as with other
committees it met to, among other things, look at how, formally, it
relates with Centrelink, if there is any formalized relationship between
two.
The Standing Committee on Finance and Public Administration is a
committee that falls within the purview of the Senate House where the
ruling government majority has reportedly no control. The Finance and
Public Administration portfolio coverage includes Parliamentary
Departments, Prime Minister and Cabinet, Finance and Public
Administration and Human Services.
The committee, our delegation was told, does oversee Centrelink as part
of broader oversight role over government administration. It looks
mainly at service delivery aspect of welfare as opposed to policy. It
therefore has no role in setting the guidelines or regulations for
Centrelink operations.
The committee listed the following as commonly reported problems with
Centrelink: ✓ Problems with Centrelink operational policies
✓ How Centrelink arrives at decisions – people do not know the
basis upon which decisions are made. ✓ Misplacement and misuse of evidence by Centrelink officials. ✓ Rudeness of Centrelink officials. ✓ Reported abuse of clients by Centrelink officials.
✓ Overpayment and the expectation to have the money paid back.
Some clients find it difficult to cope with this.
9. Meeting with the Standing Committee on Family and Human
Services, Wednesday, 09 August 2006
The standing committee on Family and Human Services is one of thirteen
general-purpose investigatory committees established by the House of
Representatives of the Parliament of Australia.
In summary, the role of the Standing Committee on Family and Human
Services is to carry out inquiries into matters referred to it by the
House of Representatives or a Minister of the Commonwealth Government.
Our delegation heard that this committee does not have a direct
oversight role over Centrelink. It however has an indirect oversight
role through consideration of annual reports of different government and
agencies like Centrelink that have to be tabled in Parliament. If there
is any concerning matter involving Centrelink, it could thus call the
latter to account. Constituency Offices also serve as a platform for an
indirect oversight exercise by Members of Parliament, by following up on
issues raised by people in the communities they service, our delegation
was told.
10. Meeting with officials from the Child Support Agency (CSA),
Friday, 11 August 2006.
The CSA is a government institution, integrated within Centrelink that
operates as part of the Department of Family and Community Services. It
is responsible for managing programs and delivering child support
services through the Child Support Scheme. Because it is not part of the
social security system, it therefore does not guarantee payment. The CSA
only passes on money collected from the contact parent. It therefore
does not have funds of its own to pay residence parent.
11. Child Support Scheme
The Child Support Scheme was introduced in the late 1980s to address the
problem that, following separation, most non-resident parents (mostly
fathers) were providing little, if any, financial support to their
children, even where court orders had been made, with consequent high
levels of child poverty and high costs to the public purse.
It came about as a result of the recognition that the system in which
child maintenance was dealt with through the courts on a case-by-case
basis had failed. Court orders were unrealistically low and difficult to
predict. They also took little or no account of the rising costs of
living. Furthermore, they were all too often ignored.
Almost two-thirds of non-custodial parents failed to meet their
obligations to their children. To enforce a court order was considered
time-consuming, expensive and frequently unproductive for the custodial
parent. Many non-custodial parents to ignore successive court orders and
seemed to regard supporting their children optional. Not only did the
children suffer, but also increasing numbers of children were being
supported by the tax paying rather than by their parents with whom the
responsibility properly lay. Escalating welfare bill and growing numbers
of children living at the poverty level prompted the government to act.
The Child Support Scheme was introduced to overcome the problems.
The fundamental shift brought about by the Scheme was that the
registration of a child support liability with the Child Support Scheme
converts “a personal obligation into a debt owed to the Australian
government collected by the Child Support Agency. Through the
elimination of the need for private enforcement action, the Scheme
sought to improve the working relationship between parents by reducing
the stress and fear often associated with bargaining over money. It also
sought to offer a degree of predictability and certainty about payments
with respect to amount, regularity, and the timing of payments.
Central to the Scheme is the administrative assessment of child support
liability via the application of the child support formula. This formula
is expressed as a percentage of the non-resident parent’s gross taxable
income (after a self support component has been deducted) and is based
on the number of dependent children under the daily care of the other
parent – with provision for special circumstances. The Scheme removed
the need for parents to have recourse to court-based discretionary
assessment, which typically produced low child maintenance amounts that
did not adjust for Inflation.
The following mechanisms are used against fathers that renege on
their maintenance:
✓ Have their tax monies intercepted.
✓ Have garnishing orders on their salaries – NB. Garnishing
orders do not require a court action.
✓ Money is deducted from their bank accounts.
✓ They are denied permission to travel abroad.
RECOMMENDATIONS
The Portfolio Committee on Social Development recommends that:
✓ The Committee commends Parliament for having allowed it to undertake the study tour to Australia. It is however of the view that as it is expected to oversee SASSA; an entity that has a budget of about R55 billion, which is somewhat unique in South Africa, another bigger delegation or two including a researcher should be allowed to undertake similar study tours to other countries with a similar socio-economic profile as South Africa. This, it believes, will assist immensely in capacitating and orientating its membership about the critical aspects relating to expert management of people, structures and processes in the Agency. The fact that the rollout of SASSA is currently underway and the committee is expected to effectively oversee it requires that Parliament provides the committee with adequate financial resources to undertake such trips as a matter of urgency.
Report to be considered.
- Report on the Study Tour by the Portfolio Committee on Social Development to the South African Social Security Agency’s (SASSA) Head- Office, Pretoria (Gauteng); and the regional offices in the Eastern Cape (East London and Port Elizabeth) and Northern Cape (Kimberley) provinces (21-24 August 2006), dated 25 October 2006:
Having undertaken an oversight visit to the South African Social Security Agency’s Head-Office in Pretoria; and regional offices in the Eastern Cape, and Northern Cape provinces on 21-24 August 2006, the Portfolio Committee on Social Development reports:
- Background
In the year 2003, the Portfolio Committee on Social Development was tasked to legislate for the establishment of the new South African Social Security Agency (SASSA), which would over time assume the responsibility of payment and administration of social grants. The establishment of SASSA was necessitated by the severe weaknesses in the management and administration of social grants often resulting in a failure on the part of government to ensure that those entitled to the benefit were provided with the best possible service. This continued to lead to ongoing litigation and substantial negative publicity in the press.
SASSA is a Cabinet-endorsed focused and specialized institution that is meant to take responsibility for the management and delivery of social grants. Its strategic intent is to facilitate improvement in the quality of services provided to beneficiaries and ensure that the minimum standards operate countrywide, for consistent and predictable service delivery. This, it is hoped will lead to efficiency gains which will manifest themselves in the reduction in the cost of service delivery as well as the drastic minimization of fraud associated with social grant administration and payment. The establishment of the Agency will have far reaching implications, requiring expert management of people, structures and processes. Subsequent to passing the SASSA legislation in 2003, our committee could, sadly, not effectively interact with the provincial and local government stakeholders on some of the unfolding developments leading up to the establishment of such an Agency as it was hamstrung by the work on the recently finalized Children and Older Persons’ Bill in the years 2004 and 2005 (first half). Given the breathing space at its disposal at the moment resulting from the conclusion of the committee’s legislative work in June 2005 and also as a gesture of its commitment to wanting to contribute towards ensuring that transition from the old to a new grant administration dispensation takes place as envisaged, the Committee adopted a proactive approach and visited the province of North West on 01-05 August 2005.
The visit was in sync with our Committee’s oversight role. It was intricately linked to our Committee’s mission of reviewing, developing and monitoring the implementation of appropriate legislation that responds to the social development needs of the people and that assists in reducing poverty and social exclusion, and ensuring public participation. And also ensuring that the policies and social development services implemented by Government are focused on comprehensive protection against vulnerability and on strengthening the social fabric.
Prior and subsequent to the visit to North West our committee had facilitated a number of interactions with officials from the social security branch in the national Department of Social Development and South African Social Security Agency on such pertinent issues as the reporting mechanism of SASSA to Parliament, SASSA’s Business Plan as well progress made and challenges currently experienced with regard to its rollout plan and its general transitional arrangements; update on the Human Resource issues one of which was the issue of the transfer of staff and assets.
Having been to provinces and also interacted with SASSA officials, the committee then took stock of its own capacity to exercise effective oversight over SASSA and arrived at a conclusion that its ability and skill to exercise effective oversight over SASSA could be better strengthened and sharpened if it could, among other things, visit, among other institutions, Centrelink in Australia, an agency around which SASSA is modeled. This view was also strongly echoed in the Committee’s strategic planning workshop, recently held at Gordon’s Bay in May 2006.
Empowered with invaluable information derived from its visit to Centrelink and interaction with some of the key stakeholders in the area of social security in Australia, the committee again turned its attention to oversight work over SASSA. This translated into an oversight to SASSA’s Head-Office; and the regional offices in the Eastern Cape, and Northern Cape provinces on 21-24 August 2006 focusing mainly on the progress made with regard to the broader SASSA roll-out process and the aligned service delivery improvement initiatives.
Significantly, the visit came against the backdrop of a mention by President Thabo Mbeki in his State of the Nation Address early this, of an eminent establishment of SASSA by 01 April 2006. This was further reinforced by an announcement by Minister Dr Z Skweyiya while delivering his Budget Vote 18 Speech on 28 March 2006 in the National Assembly, Parliament to the effect that the first phase of the establishment of the national social security agency was on track for completion by 31 March
- And that as formalized in a MinMec meeting with the MECs for Social Development in the provinces on 27 March 2006, the agency would initially take over social assistance payments in Gauteng, the Western Cape and the Northern Cape provinces, with the process being completed for other provinces by March 2007. And lastly, him stating that the Department of Social Development had already entered into contractual agreements with provinces to ensure the seamless transfer of staff and the uninterrupted provision of service. 2 Delegation
✓ Tshivhase, Ms T J (Leader of the delegation)
✓ Bogopane-Zulu, Ms H I - MP
✓ Direko, Ms I W - MP
✓ Gumede, Ms MM - MP
✓ Mr LPM Nzimande - MP
✓ Masutha, Mr M T – MP
✓ Morwamoche, Mr KW - MP
✓ Sibanyoni, Mr JB - MP
✓ Solo, Mr B - MP
✓ Waters, Mr M - MP
✓ Weber, Ms H - MP
✓ Dudley, Ms C - MP
✓ Rajbally, Ms S – MP
✓ Mr MC Fukula – Committee Secretary
✓ Mr F Abrahams - Researcher
✓ Mr F Holliday – Assistant to Mr Nzimande
✓ Mr A Kakaza – Committee Assistant Mr Bogopane-Zulu – Assistant to Mrs. Bogopane-Zul
- PURPOSE OF THE OVERSIGHT VISIT
To generally follow up on the progress SASSA has possibly made in the following key interim matters: Stabilizing head office organizational structure and recruit people with requisite skills • Efforts to assume full accountability for operation of the SOCPEN System. • Recruitment of requisite skills and people in regional offices, particularly finance staff. • Completing the ring-fencing process in collaboration with provincial departments. • Completing the ring-fencing process in collaboration with provincial departments • Assess the conditions at pay points and systems currently in place following SASSA’s establishment. • To familiarize itself with the challenges facing the SASSA roll-out process
- Reported progress made on SASSA’s broader roll-out process.
4.1. 1 Summary Taking the cue from the spirited and confident account given by Mr Makiwane, the CEO of SASSA, the prevailing mood at SASSA Head-Office and the regions visited, one can safely conclude, was generally one of cautious optimism. Remarkable strides have reportedly been made in facilitating the shift of grant administration from the provincial Departments of Social Development to SASSA with most of the pertinent transitional matters positively dealt with. SASSA has to a commendable degree managed to fulfil its mandate of stabilizing its head and regional offices’ organizational structures and recruit people with requisite skills, particularly finance staff, which do not move over from provincial departments.
The process of putting up the essential Information Technology, Human Resource and physical infrastructural networks has also unfolded fairly smoothly without any reported disruptions to the mechanism and system of grant payments. SASSA has, as a matter of example, now assumed full control and the inherent accountability for operation of the SOCPEN system.
The much talked-about possible stalemate surrounding the process of transferring the ring-fenced staff from the Department of Social Development to SASSA was apparently avoided, very much to everybody’s relief.
Notwithstanding the good picture created, SASSA has also given very frank and clear report about the lingering and worrisome challenges it is still battling in the areas, among others, of fraud prevention, litigation, equity plans (employing disabled people) and service delivery improvements.
4.1.2 Integrating the provincial Social Assistance functions into SASSA
Our delegation was told that, as part of facilitating a smooth integration of the provincial social assistance functions into SASSA a Service Agreement (Agency Agreement) had been signed between the national; provincial departments and SASSA. Underpinning this Service Agreement was said to be a provision for continued corporate services (finance, human resources, information technology and communications) support to SASSA by the provincial departments of social development.
The Service Agreement is expected to remain in place until regional offices of SASSA have sufficiently built and acquired the essential and critical capacities to operate as independent entities.
As alluded to by Minister Skweyiya, in his Budget Vote speech on 28 March 2006, our delegation was informed that the Gauteng, Western Cape and Northern Cape provinces constitute a group of provinces prioritized to, with the support by teams comprising staff from the SASSA national office, SASSA regional offices and the Provincial Departments of Social Development, be trend-setters in taking full responsibilities for the social assistance functions in their respective regions. Our delegation learned that project plans covering detailed steps on the acquisition of critical staff, appropriate facilities, and the corporate services competencies necessary for effective organization have also been developed for the rest of the unprioritized provinces.
It was revealed that the Western Cape, Northern Cape, North West, Free State and Eastern Cape were already housed in separate buildings with the Gauteng and Limpopo expected to move in to separate buildings only by August and September 2006 respectively. All the regional offices, even those that are in the process of still securing alternative facilities have separate office facilities to those of the Provincial Departments of Social Development. It is envisaged that the provinces will have been reconstituted as functional SASSA regions by the end of December 2006.
From the onset of April 2006, about 6246 personnel consisting of both senior managers and low ranked staff have been transferred from the provincial and national Departments of Social Development to the Agency. Of these transferred staff, approximately 135 were from the national Department of Social Development, with the highest numbers coming the Eastern Cape (1372), and from KwaZulu-Natal (1128). The lowest numbers of transferees came from the Northern Cape region (206).
All the transferred staff were reportedly furnished with transfer letters in consistence with the terms of the agreement reached within the Collective Bargaining Council between the Agency, Department of Social Development and the Labour Unions. The Agency records reportedly show that all transferred employees have confirmed their transfer by signing the letters that acknowledge their acceptance to be transferred.
4.1.3 Operationalising the SASSA national office
The head office is said to be fully operational with a Chief Executive Officer at the helm propped by the Executive Managers. Senior managers in areas critical to building the strategic and operational capacity of SASSA have also been filled. The appointments of key and critical personnel is said to stand to date at 160 people.
The Agency’s finance unit, headed by a permanent Chief Financial Officer is reportedly sufficiently capacitated with qualified and experienced personnel both in the senior as well as lower ranked technical level to transact, manage, and administer revenue and expenditure processes, procedures and the overall accounts of SASSA. This complemented by the government systems such as the Basic Accounting System (BAS); the salaries processing system (PERSAL) and the procurement system (LOGIS), provides for better control over funds and cash flow.
The Agency is also capacitated with an active Tender Committee comprising membership stretching to the Departments of Justice and Constitutional Development and Social Development as well as the National Treasury. The committee regularly meets to consider, review and approve service provider proposals from different branches. This branch of the Head-Office is fairly capacitated with the nucleus IT personnel supporting critical business and IT processes.
A business agreement involving SASSA and SITA has reportedly been concluded, which will see the latter continuing to provide Information and Communication Technology Support Services and maintenance of the Agency’s critical systems, such as SOCPEN, whilst it is finalising its Information and Communication Technology Strategy that will enhance fraud mitigation process where the leakages in the SOCPEN and fraud detection and prevention are addressed.
The funds flow process for the payment of grants, between National Department of Social Development, SASSA and the provinces has been finalized, our delegation was told.
Corporate governance arrangements, policies and procedures and delegations of Authority and accounting policies are reportedly also in place.
A communication strategy is said to have been developed and is in the process of being rolled out.
An analysis of current status of litigation has reportedly been completed and a litigation strategy to deal with both the backlog cases and possible future has been developed.
4.2. Service delivery improvement initiatives
4.2.1 Applications Turnaround Improvement
SASSA has reportedly completed a pilot project in three offices in the Western Cape, Eastern Cape and Mpumalanga regions and achieved an average of between 1 and 3 days turnaround in these offices. SASSA will now investigate a full implementation of these business processes in all regions, monitor the turn around time and address any challenges, which might arise.
4.2.2 Enhanced Payment Model
A national grant payment model has reportedly been developed which will ensure uniform processes across SASSA in all regions. The model is said to being developed in consultation with other stakeholders such as National Treasury and will be published with a view to implement before the end of 2006/07 Financial year. Added to that are efforts to improve on the current status quo where only less than 20% beneficiaries are receiving their grant payments through the banks. SASSA has thus reportedly signed a draft Memorandum of Understanding with the Banking Association of South Africa to encourage more grant beneficiaries to receive their grant payments via the banks.
4.2.3 Optimal Service Delivery Infrastructure Network
As a way of seeking to address the challenge of sub-standard conditions in most paypoints and service offices, SASSA is said to have developed an optimal service delivery infrastructure network to support service delivery through the optimal provision of access points or applications and the payments of social grants. A review has been completed on the current distribution of service points and an optimization of locations of district and service offices are underway. SASSA revealed that it was currently in discussion with the Department of Public Works on a possible comprehensive rollout of service office throughout the country.
4.2.4 Improved Access to Services in Rural Areas
SASSA is reportedly in a process of procuring about 40 mobile service units equipped with essential material to complement efforts to enhance levels of service delivery in the deep rural areas. A tender is said to have already been issued for the procurement of mobile units with the evaluation and implementation of the tender only expected during the 2006/2007 financial year. 4.2.5 Anti-fraud measures to improve the integrity of social grant administration
The Agency is vigorously dealing with the inherent SOCPEN problems such as illegitimate beneficiaries by looking at things that lead to corruption of the database.
The Agency has reportedly a full-fledged fraud unit, complemented by among other things a fraud hotline through which fraud linked to grant administration and payment could be reported. Received fraud tip-offs are reportedly handed over to the Special Investigation Unit (SIU) for indepth investigation.
- Report on the regional roll-out process focussing on the visited Eastern Cape and Northern Cape regions.
5.1 EC REGION
5.1.1 Summary
The Eastern Cape region does not form of the group of 3 prioritized provinces. It was only chosen to serve as a benchmark of outlaying regions in terms of what preparatory processes are in place for a later roll-out. As was the case with the SASSA Head-Office the mood at the regional level in the Eastern Cape was generally upbeat underpinned with a strong and manifest sense of everything-is-under-control confidence. This strong sense of confidence permeated even into those areas where there were reported challenges such as litigation and syndicated grant fraud particularly around the Port Elizabeth and Queenstown areas. Concerns raised by MEC Ms Xasa around the general accountability issues between SASSA and the Department of Social Development could not obscure the upbeat mood either.
The region’s confidence is predicated on the many positive achievements it reports to have made since 01 April 2006. These include several best practices such as the Management Information System, Medical Assessment and Vendor Management Units. And moreover the fact that the Agency in this region is totally separated from the Department of Social Development at regional level and is also functionally separate at lower level in terms of core service function.
5.1.2 Human Capital
It was reported that the Region has a function human capital management system. Of the 1400 Social Security personnel transferred to SASSA in the region as from 01 April 2006, we were told that 900 were on short-term contracts. Of the 57 critical posts advertised to date, 52 were reportedly filled with women constituting 90 per cent thereof.
The task of recruitment of critical staff was cited as a time-consuming challenge.
5.1.3. Financial management
The region was very in line with the Head-Office report fully functional in the area of financial management equipped, among other things, with BAS and Procure-to-pay systems. Evidence thereof is borne by the fact the region has successfully completed its first Annual Financial Statement and a financial audit for 2005/06.
Challenges were reported in respect of commitments carried over from 2005/06 fiscal year; utilisation of the Department of Social Development Bank Accounts for transfer of payments, as well as the actual division of ring-fenced assets and liabilities.
5.1.4. Infrastructure
The regional office is reportedly fully established and operational as from 01 April 2006. At service office level, we were informed that SASSA was still sharing offices with the provincial Department of Social Development. A national tender for 7 district offices independent from the Department of Social Development is to have been approved and due advertisement.
Prioritization of procurement for area and service office levels coupled with poor conditions in some service offices was highlighted as a critical challenge.
5.1.5. Legal services
The regional office has an established legal services unit located in the Corporate Services Division. Its sternest challenge is reportedly to provide clarity on who, between SASSA and the Department of Social Development, is responsible for litigation cases that were filed before and after 01 April 2006.
5.1.6. Grant administration
The roll-out of the enhanced Management Information System (MIS) in the Nelson Mandela Metro has been touted as a long required panacea to reduce the region’s turnaround time in grant application and thus improve levels of customer satisfaction. The system is a computerised resource mechanism that hosts grant applicants’ files and is able to track movements of files and eradicate any possibility of missing files, which has been a source of many litigation actions.
The regional office has an established and functional Medical Assessment Unit, which is credited improving the quality of disability and care dependent assessments. The Unit reportedly has 15 doctors, 2 for each district who do quality control of disability applications focussing on technical issues.
After encountering problems with contracted payment companies, the office has seen wisdom in establishing its own functional Vendor Management Unit beefed with monitors who visit paypoints randomly to check on the happenings there.
The office also boasts a functional beneficiary maintenance unit and a centralised registry.
The issue of poor infrastructure (poor office and road conditions) in outlying areas continues to be a hindering challenge for the region. The reliance on the other stakeholders such as the Departments of Home Affairs (IDs); Health (medical assessments) and Justice (foster-care matters) is reported to be a concerning challenge. The fact that there is currently no clear policy on appeals is also cited as a challenge to the efforts of improving grant administration.
5.1.7. Fraud prevention programme
In the face of sophisticated and highly organized grant fraudsters; the Agency has reportedly had to put strict control measures to effectively outsmart the fraudsters. The control measures include the introduction of pre-numbered application forms as well as the Management Information System, which also functions as a tracking tool. If there is a missing document, the MIS does not allow the system to move.
As a way of reigning in on fraudulent child support grant, the Agency and its Compliance Unit is sharing notes with the Department of Education and conducting random checking of whether the children listed for child support grant are indeed in existence. There is also a task team made up of SASSA and Department of Home Affairs officials dealing with the challenge of fraudulent birth certificates. The Port Elizabeth (PE) area was singled out as the hotspot for fraudulent grant activities, with an unacceptably high number of disability grants in the Eastern Cape region. Alcoholics and drug addicts were reportedly receiving permanent disability grants. Linked to this high number of disability grants was a syndicate operating in the PE area, which was colluding with Department of Health officials who were selling it TB cards to be used in fraudulent grant applications. The syndicate was arrested in 2004 and convicted in 2005. A Nigerian doctor implicated in fraudulent grant activities has reportedly been arrested. His case was expected to come before the courts during the last week of August
- The arrest of the Nigerian doctor led to the arrest of the Department of Social Development who was working with a syndicate operating around the Queenstown area. The Department of Social Development has reportedly been found guilty and jailed for seventeen years.
A scam involving another syndicate operating around the Port Elizabeth area, working with officials from the Department of Home Affairs who were producing fraudulent was also reportedly uncovered. Department of Social Development officials working with the syndicate have been identified. This syndicate case was also expected to be heard during the last week of August 2006.
About 3109 government employees illegally receiving social grants have reportedly been identified. Their grant payments have been stopped and their case has been referred to the South African Police Services for criminal prosecution.175 Municipality employees accessing social grants illegally have also been identified and their case is reportedly being dealt with by the Scorpions. SASSA’s Compliance Unit is dealing with a case involving 14252 civil pensioners accessing social grants. SASSA has also arrested 2 attorneys in the Queenstown area who filed for litigation against the Agency without the knowledge of affected grant beneficiaries.
- Northern Cape Region
6.1 Summary
The Northern Cape region is one of the group of 3 regions prioritized to implement the process of establishing and operationalising SASSA. The information provided by the Regional Office clearly suggests that the Agency establishment and operationalisation process in the region is not yet fully realised. Although it reportedly has all the financial policies in place, the Regional Office still does not have its own finance and information technology support services. It still sources the latter from the provincial Department of Social Development, courtesy of the Service Agreement signed between SASSA and the Department of Social Development. Only by the end of October 2006 is the Regional Office expected to be fully capacitated.
The highlight of the Regional Office, very much like the Eastern Cape is its hosting of the MIS which will replace the manual records management process with an electronic system.
The Agency is accommodated in its own separate premises, called SASSA House, based in Kimberley. 20 new officials have reportedly been appointed in the HR, SCM, Finance, ICT and Executive office and the rest of the critical vacancies are reportedly expected to be filled by mid-October 2006. Whilst the Agency operates independently at regional level, at district and local service office level, it still shares the operational costs with the provincial Department of Social Development. Among the highlighted positive developments in this region, has been the cordial working relationship between the Agency and the provincial Department of Social Development.
6.2 Service delivery improvement initiatives.
6.2.1. IT and Communication systems
The regional service improvement initiatives boast the Management Information System, which is seen as critical in reducing litigation chances through implementing an organised registry that is electronically managed through the system and thus averting the scourge of missing files. Its other advantages are recorded as its ability to standardize the registry processes; help create a centralised registry; ensure efficient file tracking, track user performance and effect adherence to norms and standards. The Region has also unveiled a regional initiative called the Trans African Technology System (TAT). TAT is a grant management system to support risk management, data interrogation and detect fraud. It is a pre- screening system before processing grant applications onto SOCPEN and also to generate ineligible cases for investigation. Complementing these two initiatives is about 30 telephone interpreting facilities installed in service offices throughout the Northern Cape region. These facilities cater for all the regional languages.
6.2.2. Grant application turn-around time
The region is reportedly compliant with the 21-day national norm for approval of applications despite the challenge of vast distances between offices and is currently working on a new service delivery model, otherwise called “same day approval” project. The latter is at the moment being piloted at only the fully resourced district offices and the rollout is expected to cover all areas depending on the pace of infrastructure improvement. Since the rollout of the project, about 2287 same day approvals have reportedly been finalised.
6.2.3. Status of pay points
The bulk of the 240 active pay points serviced by Cash Paymaster Services (CPS) throughout the Northern Cape region is said to be complying with the national norms and standards for pay points such as water availability, wheel chair ramps and first aid kits. All pay points reportedly have fully fledged helpdesks and finish payment operations before 12h00. Supporting this is reportedly a contingent of about 710 strong and trained volunteers organized in volunteer committees spread throughout the different pay points. It is important to note that our delegation could not verify this kind of information as there were no active pay points making payments during our visit. We were informed that paydays are only from the first to the tenth day of the month.
The exploitation of beneficiaries by merchants who are reportedly forcing them to buy at their shops where food prices are allegedly inflated is cited as a disturbing challenge facing the installation of smart card machines in the region.
6.2.4. Grant administration
Data cleaning initiatives have reportedly culminated into a regional initiative to review all expired temporary disability grants. Affected beneficiaries are reportedly informed of their eminent grant payment termination in advance by 3 months. Statistics indicates that for the month of June 2006, about 880 grants had been reviewed. Data cleaning initiatives have also exposed about 14818 cases of invalid identity numbers. About 99, 5% of these cases have reportedly been sorted, with the remaining linked to duplicate identity numbers being rectified with the Department of Home Affairs.
RECOMMENDATIONS
The Portfolio Committee on Social Development recommends that:
• The South African Social Security Agency (SASSA) be commended for the
efforts that have gone into ensuring that the transfer of the social
assistance function from the Department of Social Development proceed
smoothly.
• SASSA reports to Parliament with regard to the establishment of its
own premises in those provinces where this had not happened at the
time of the oversight visit, and that it reports on this matter before
the end of 2006.
• SASSA reports to Parliament with regard to the pilot projects for the
speedy assessment, verification and approval of grant applications.
• SASSA reports to Parliament on measures put in place in each of the
regions to ensure that persons with disability are assisted in
applying for social assistance. Such a report should, inter alia,
reflect on the accessibility of SASSA offices, possible strategies to
ensure the availability of sign language interpreters, the
availability of information and application forms in Braille, and
general skills levels among staff with regard to the needs of persons
with disabilities
• SASSA reports to Parliament on steps taken to ensure that it complies
with the requirements of the Employment Equity Act as it relates to
the employment of persons with disabilities.
• SASSA reports to Parliament on measures taken against any of its
personnel implicated in, or found guilty of fraudulent activities in
relation to social grants.
• SASSA reports to Parliament on the progress made with regard to paying
grants into bank accounts, as well as challenges experienced in this
regard.
The Committee further recommends that:
• The Department of Social Development brief it on the policy challenges
with regard to the relationship between access to disability grants
and access to antiretroviral treatment.
• The Department of Social Development brief it with regard to the
manner in which it monitors SASSA, and what reporting mechanisms it
envisages to utilise when reporting on this matter to Parliament.
• The Department of Social Development brief it on progress made with
regard to implementing an appeals mechanism in relation to
unsuccessful applications.
Report to be considered.
TUESDAY, 31 OCTOBER 2006
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
- Classification of Bill by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
(1) The JTM on 24 October 2006 in terms of Joint Rule 160(3)
classified the following Bill as section 75 Bill:
a) Transnet Pension Fund Amendment Bill [B 30 – 2006] (National
Assembly – sec 75)
National Assembly
The Speaker
- Retirement of Secretary to National Assembly
I wish to announce that the Secretary to the National Assembly, Mr K
Hahndiek, will, after 36 years of service, be retiring from the
Parliamentary Service with effect from 1 December 2006.
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
- The Speaker and the Chairperson
a) Special Report of the Auditor-General on his term of office, 1999 to
2006 – In support of Democracy [RP 224-2006].
- The Minister of Defence
a) Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the Republic
of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Chile on
Defence Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
Constitution, 1996.
b) Explanatory Memorandum to the Memorandum of Understanding between
the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government
of the Republic of Chile on Defence Cooperation.
c) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
and the Government of the Czech Republic concerning the Protection
of Classified Defence Information, tabled in terms of section
231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.
d) Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement between the Government of
the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Czech
Republic concerning the Protection of Classified Defence
Information.
e) Supplementary Arrangement between the Government of the Republic of
South Africa through its Department of Defence and the Federal
Ministry of Defence of the Federal Republic of Germany concerning
the Provision of Support during Exercise Good Hope from 6 February
2006 to 20 March 2006, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
Constitution, 1996.
f) Explanatory Memorandum to the Supplementary Arrangement between the
Government of the Republic of South Africa through its Department
of Defence and the Federal Ministry of Defence of the Federal
Republic of Germany concerning the Provision of Support during
Exercise Good Hope from 6 February 2006 to 20 March 2006.
g) Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the Republic
of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of India
concerning the Training of South African Navy Personnel by the
Indian Navy, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution,
1996.
h) Explanatory Memorandum to the Memorandum of Understanding between
the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government
of the Republic of India concerning the Training of South African
Navy Personnel by the Indian Navy.
i) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
and the Government of the Republic of India on Supplies of Defence
Equipment, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution,
1996.
j) Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement between the Government of
the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of
India on Supplies of Defence Equipment.
k) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa as
represented by the South African Department of Defence and the
Government of the Republic of Mali as represented by the Malian
Ministry of Defence and War Veterans on Defence and Technical
Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution,
1996.
l) Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement between the Government of
the Republic of South Africa as represented by the South African
Department of Defence and the Government of the Republic of Mali as
represented by the Malian Ministry of Defence and War Veterans on
Defence and Technical Cooperation.
m) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
and the Government of the Russian Federation on Reciprocal
Protection of Intellectual Property Rights used and established in
the course of Bilateral Defence-Industrial Cooperation, tabled in
terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.
n) Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement between the Government of
the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Russian
Federation on Reciprocal Protection of Intellectual Property Rights
used and established in the course of Bilateral Defence-Industrial
Cooperation.
o) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
and the Government of the Russian Federation concerning Protection
of Classified Defence and Defence-Industrial related Information,
tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.
p) Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement between the Government of
the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Russian
Federation concerning Protection of Classified Defence and Defence-
Industrial related Information.
q) Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the Republic
of South Africa through its Department of Defence and The Ministry
of National Defence of the Republic of Tunisia concerning Military
Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution,
1996.
r) Explanatory Memorandum to the Memorandum of Understanding between
the Government of the Republic of South Africa through its
Department of Defence and The Ministry of National Defence of the
Republic of Tunisia concerning Military Cooperation.
s) Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the Republic
of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Uganda
concerning Defence Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3)
of the Constitution, 1996.
t) Explanatory Memorandum to the Memorandum of Understanding between
the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government
of the Republic of Uganda concerning Defence Cooperation.
u) Supplementary Arrangement between the Government of the Republic of
South Africa and the Government of the of the United Kingdom of
Great Britain and Northern Ireland concerning the provision of
support during Exercises, Training and Operations, tabled in terms
of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.
v) Explanatory Memorandum to the Supplementary Arrangement between the
Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of
the of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
concerning the provision of support during Exercises, Training and
Operations.
w) Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the Republic
of South Africa and the Government of the United Kingdom of Great
Britain and Northern Ireland concerning the provision of personnel
of the United Kingdom Armed Forces and the United Kingdom Ministry
of Defence to advise the Department of Defence of the Republic of
South Africa on aspects of Democratic Defence Management and Peace
Support Operations, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
Constitution, 1996.
x) Explanatory Memorandum to the Memorandum of Understanding between
the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government
of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
concerning the provision of personnel of the United Kingdom Armed
Forces and the United Kingdom Ministry of Defence to advise the
Department of Defence of the Republic of South Africa on aspects of
Democratic Defence Management and Peace Support Operations.
y) Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the Republic
of South Africa and the Government of the United Kingdom of Great
Britain and Northern Ireland concerning the provision of personnel
of the United Kingdom Armed Forces and the United Kingdom Ministry
of Defence to advise the Department of Defence of the Republic of
South Africa on aspects of Democratic Defence Management and Peace
Support Operations, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
Constitution, 1996.
z) Explanatory Memorandum to the Memorandum of Understanding between
the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government
of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
concerning the provision of personnel of the United Kingdom Armed
Forces and the United Kingdom Ministry of Defence to advise the
Department of Defence of the Republic of South Africa on aspects of
Democratic Defence Management and Peace Support Operations.
aa) Memorandum of Understanding between the United Nations and the
Government of the Republic of South Africa contributing Resources
to “United Nations Operation in Burundi” (ONUB), tabled in terms of
section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.
ab) Explanatory Memorandum to the Memorandum of Understanding between
the United Nations and the Government of the Republic of South
Africa contributing Resources to “United Nations Operation in
Burundi” (ONUB).
ac) Declaration of Understanding between the Government of the Republic
of South Africa and the Government of the United States of America
concerning the Provision of Equipment and Training from the
Department of State of the United States of America under the
African Contingency Operations Training and Assistance Programme to
the South African Department of Defence, tabled in terms of section
231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.
ad) Explanatory Memorandum to the Declaration of Understanding between
the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government
of the United States of America concerning the Provision of
Equipment and Training from the Department of State of the United
States of America under the African Contingency Operations Training
and Assistance Programme to the South African Department of
Defence.
ae) Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the Republic
of South Africa as represented by its Department of Defence and the
Ministry of Defence of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam concerning
Defence Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
Constitution, 1996.
af) Explanatory Memorandum to the Memorandum of Understanding between
the Government of the Republic of South Africa as represented by
its Department of Defence and the Ministry of Defence of the
Socialist Republic of Vietnam concerning Defence Cooperation.
ag) Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the Republic
of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Zimbabwe
concerning the Secondment of the Air Force of Zimbabwe Personnel to
the South African Department of Defence, tabled in terms of section
231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.
ah) Explanatory Memorandum to the Memorandum of Understanding between
the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government
of the Republic of Zimbabwe concerning the Secondment of the Air
Force of Zimbabwe Personnel to the South African Department of
Defence.
- The Minister of Finance
a) Consolidated Financial Information for year ended 31 March 2006 [RP
241-2006], tabled in terms of section 8(1)(a) of the Public Finance
Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).
WEDNESDAY, 1 NOVEMBER 2006
TABLINGS
National Assembly
- The Speaker
(a) The President of the Republic submitted the following letter
dated 18 October 2006 to the Speaker of the National Assembly
informing Members of the Assembly of the employment of the South
African National Defence Force in the Democratic Republic of Congo:
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