National Assembly - 14 February 2006




The House met at 15:59.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair.


                          NOTICE OF MOTION

Dr P J RABIE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the House debates the planned review of the willing-buyer, willing- seller principle in the light of section 25 of the Constitution, which requires just and equitable compensation based on market value, so that the state’s failure to properly manage the land restitution process does not destroy land values and affect the economy, thus further delaying land reform.

                        MOTION OF CONDOLENCE

                      (The late Dr A E Rupert)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House –

(1) notes with a deep sense of shock and sadness the passing away of Dr Anthony (Anton) Edward Rupert, who passed on, on 18 January 2006, less than three months after his beloved wife, Huberte, died;

(2) remembers that this outstanding son of our people strongly believed in righteousness and justice;

(3) recalls his words when in 1966, he said to an American journalist that: “White and Black, we are each other’s shadows, particularly here in South Africa where we share the land together, if the African doesn’t eat, we don’t sleep, and vice versa; if we are apart, if he doesn’t succeed, we don’t succeed, and if we don’t succeed, he won’t”;

(4) further recalls that Anton Rupert was sufficiently inspired by the spirit of righteousness and justice, which is an inherent part of the making of the Afrikaners, to end this life as a celebrated South African and African patriot and that he was a prophet of an inclusive future for the children of our country and continent; and

(5) conveys its condolences and sympathies to his family and loved ones.

Agreed to.

                        MOTION OF CONDOLENCE

                  (The late Mrs Coretta Scott King)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House –

 1) notes with a deep sense of sadness the passing away on Monday, 30
    January 2006, of Mrs Coretta Scott King, wife of the late civil
    rights activist Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr;    (2)      recalls that just four days after her husband was assassinated
       she led a march of 50 000 people through the streets of Memphis
       and later that year she took his place in the Poor People’s
       March to Washington, and that Coretta Scott King carried on her
       late husband’s work, working to fulfil his dream of an America
       in which all the people have equal rights;

(3) further recalls that when her husband, Martin Luther King, Jr, was assassinated in 1968, she could have easily retired from public life and devoted herself to bringing up her children;

(4) remembers that on behalf of the Women’s Strike for Peace, she was a delegate at the Disarmament Conference in Geneva in 1962, and that she often gave concerts on behalf of the civil rights movement; and

(5) conveys its condolences to the King and Scott families, the civil rights movement in the USA and the people of the United States of America.

Agreed to.

                        MOTION OF CONDOLENCE

                  (The late King Xolilizwe Sigcau)

Nkosi M NONKONYANA: Sekela-Somlomo, malungu abekekileyo ale Ndlu, ndindulula ngaphandle kokunika isaziso:

 Ukuba iNdlu -

    1) izifumene iindaba ezilusizi zokushiywa yikumkani yamaXhosa,
       uKumkani Xolilizwe Sigcau, ngomhla wama-31 kweyoMnga nyakenye,
       esishiyela kwisibhedlele somkhosi eTshwane;

 (2)    iyambulela urhulumente ngoncedo athe walunika ekuqhubeni
       umsebenzi womngcwabo wekumkani;

 (3)    iqaphele ukuba uncedo lukarhulumente luthe lwabuyisela isidima
       nesithozela kubukhosi ngokubanzi, kwaye lubonisa ukwamkeleka
       kwendima eyadlalwa nesadlalwa ziinkosi zomthonyama kweli,
       njengezinye iikumkani ezazikho ngaphambili, esingabalula kuzo
       iikumkani ezifana nooCetshwayo, Bhambatha, Mshweshwe,
       Sekhukhune, Hintsa kunye nezinye endingazibalanga;

 (4)    iqaphele ukuba uXolilizwe wasebenzela ukugcina ubuzwe bethu,
       kwaye engazange athengise ngabantu bakhe;

 (5)    igqithisa umyalezo wovelwano kusapho lwekumkani, kubantwana
       benkosi, kumzi wakwaXhosa nakubantu bonke boMzantsi Afrika
       ngokubanzi, nakumbutho wakhe i-Contralesa. (Translation of isiXhosa motion of condolence follows.)

[Chief M NONKONYANA: Deputy Speaker, hon members of this House, I move without notice:

 That the House–

 (1)    notes with sadness the news of the passing on of the king of the
       Xhosas, King Xolilizwe Sigcau, on 31 December last year, who
       died at the military hospital in Tshwane;

 (2)    thanks the government for assisting with the funeral of the

 (3)    notes that the assistance from government helped restore the
       dignity of traditional leadership in general, and signified the
       acceptance of the role that traditional leaders played in the
       past and continue to play in this country, such as Kings
       Cetshwayo, Bhambatha, Moshoeshoe, Sekhukhune, Hintsa, to name
       but a few;
   4) notes that Xolilizwe was a great patriot and never sold his
      people out;

(5) sends its condolences to the king’s family, to his subjects, to the Xhosas, to the people of South Africa at large, including his organisation, Contralesa.]

Agreed to.


                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move the draft resolution printed on the Order Paper in the name of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, as follows:

That, upon the introduction of the Main Appropriation Bill on 15 February 2006, the Portfolio Committee on Finance, notwithstanding Rule 290(3), report to the House within 24 consecutive working days.

Agreed to.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The next item on the Order Paper is Members’ Statements. Unfortunately, the ANC has to go first, Mr Gibson. I know that you’re ready. The ANC?


                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr D A A OLIFANT (ANC): Deputy Speaker, as we are going to win the elections, we have to be first! [Laughter.]

Ek verklaar dat Eskom op Maandag, 6 Februarie 2006, onder leiding van sy uitvoerende hoof, Thulani Gcabashe, en minister Alex Erwin ’n belegging van R3,5 miljard gedoen het vir die oprigting van kragopwekkers in Atlantis.

Hierdie reusebelegging, wat deel uitmaak van die regering se Asgisa-program onder leiding van die Adjunkpresident, bring nie net werkskepping mee nie, maar ook vaardigheidsopleiding vir plaaslike indiensneming, en u kan dink, vir die eerste keer kan ons vroue in Atlantis en Mamre nou ook B&B’s bedryf om tegnici en ander werkers te kan akkommodeer.

Dit sal ook lei tot subkontrakte vir ons klein ondernemings in Atlantis, Mamre, Pella, Witsand en die nabygeleë gebiede. Dit is daarom baie belangrik dat die mense moet ANC stem, want die ANC-regering is ’n regering wat inderdaad getrou bly aan sy beleid van ’n beter lewe vir almal. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[I hereby declare that on Monday, 6 February 2006, Eskom - under the direction of its executive head, Thulani Gcabashe, and Minister Alex Erwin

  • invested R3,5 billion for the installation of generators in Atlantis.

This huge investment, which is part of the government’s Asgisa programme under the leadership of the Deputy President, not only creates jobs but also provides skills training for local employment, and just think, for the first time our women in Atlantis and Mamre will now also be able to operate B&B’s to accommodate technicians and other workers.

This will also lead to subcontracts for our small enterprises in Atlantis, Mamre, Pella, Witsand and the neighbouring areas. Therefore it is very important that the people must vote for the ANC, because the ANC government is a government that has indeed remained true to its principle of a better life for all.]


                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr I O DAVIDSON (DA): Madam Deputy Speaker, the DA’s alternative budget: “Jobs, Growth and Delivery” is both pro-poor and pro-growth. We put employment at the forefront of our economic policies. This ensures that even the poorest households are able to enjoy the fruits of growth.

We propose a R750 per capita wage subsidy on employment. This will lower the cost of labour and increase jobs. The effect will be higher wages for the working poor, more jobs and a low tax burden for businesses. We allocate an additional R1,1 billion to the land reform programme for emerging farmers, and we propose a basic income grant of R110 per month to the poorest of the poor.

In addition, we propose to halve secondary tax on companies, eliminate the skills development levy and begin reducing the corporate income tax rate. This will bring South Africa’s corporate tax environment in line with international norms and attract new jobs and investment. I thank you.


                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr M B SKOSANA (IFP): Madam Deputy Speaker, when briefing the media on the catalyst for shared and accelerated growth on 6 February 2006, the hon Deputy President spoke of a priority focus on scarce skills, including artisans. She spoke of the impending programme, namely the Joint Initiative on Priority Skills Acquisition, Jipsa.

Jipsa’s responsibilities will be to confirm what the urgently needed skills are and to find solutions, such as special training programmes, bringing back retirees and South Africans working outside South Africa, and drawing in new immigrants. We believe that along with this, Jipsa should consider introducing another special programme with an extraordinary drive, targeting the skills of Africans in the diaspora and African Americans willing to invest their skills in South Africa.

Before this House can be accused of opting out of the social, political and economic contract entered into with the poor 11 years ago, it would be judicious on the part of the government, through Asgisa, seriously to consider attaching a legal charter of moral and ethical conditions to the solutions of Jipsa to discourage a rolling back of the frontiers of political freedom already gained, a phenomenon that is beginning to overtake us.

As it is, we see in some financial institutions, estate and property agencies, big business and corporate centres, including airports and touring services, to name just a few, a rampaging resurgence and solidification of racism and discrimination against the African people.

On the other hand, we see the scramble for scarce resources and menacing patronage power colonies of the African elite class, far above the poor majority. All this, if not strongly checked, could easily become a recipe for a protracted social conflict. I thank you.


                        (Member’s Statement)

Mrs D G NHLENGETHWA (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, the ANC supports the call made by the President in his state of the nation address to review the willing-seller, willing-buyer approach to land reform. This approach allows landowners to offer their land for sale at inflated prices. Such practices lead to protracted disputes and slow down land reform processes. They also negatively affect the national objective of ensuring that the previously marginalised and poor communities gain access to land.

The land summit also recommended the review of the willing-seller, willing- buyer approach, and that expropriation be used in accordance with constitutional principles. We also agree with the President that this should be done in a manner consistent with international norms and standards.

The ANC also agrees that compensation should be equitable and just, thus striking a balance between the interests of all the affected parties. I thank you. [Applause.]


                        (Member’s Statement)

Ms N C NKABINDE (UDM): Deputy Speaker, the HIV/Aids pandemic has claimed another South African life. Our sincerest condolences go to Irvin Khoza and his family on the passing away of their daughter.

What is of extreme concern to us is that the national effort to deal with this terrible disease is being undermined and hampered.

We are witnessing the continued promotion of untested remedies, while the roll-out of antiretrovirals lags behind. The point is not whether nutrition helps or whether traditional medicine might assist in the treatment, but rather that the primary and only scientifically proven treatment is actively being ignored in order to promote things that have no proven or significant treatment value.

The latest statement from the Department of Health pretends that the debate is now about the value of nutrition or traditional medicine. But this is a false argument designed to attract attention away from the recognised treatment and the failure of government to deliver it.

Nutrition is important for all people living with an illness, but we do not see the Minister taking every opportunity to tell cancer patients to eat certain foods at the expense of chemotherapy and other recognised cancer treatments. The fact is that nutrition is an accepted aspect of most illnesses’ treatment regimes, but it is not a replacement for certain tried and tested medicines. I thank you. [Applause.]

                       ID POLICY VS DA POLICY

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr V C GORE (ID): Madam Deputy Speaker, the ID agrees wholeheartedly with the DA’s plea to avoid splitting the opposition. That is why the ID says: “Ignore the DA’s attempts to spray water on the seeds of division in our society, based on past obsession with race.” There is only one party that has the ability to be a serious and a constructive opposition, and that is the ID. [Interjections.] A vote for the ID is a vote for the ID. Unlike the ID, the DA has become the new home for the old National Party of the old apartheid regime. Where the apartheid regime used scare tactics such as the “swart gevaar” and the “rooi gevaar”, the DA of today uses exactly the same scare tactics and goes one step further by now using the “De Lille - gevaar”.

Perhaps the DA should not use a negative campaign by telling people why they should not vote for other parties, and should tell the electorate why they should be voting for the DA. Unfortunately, the whingeing and whining of the DA has extended past the ANC and now includes anyone that is not the DA. Where they say there is fear, the ID says there is hope. Where they say, “divide”, the ID says, “unite”. I thank you. [Applause.]

                          RACISM OF THE DA

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr M R SONTO (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, the ingrained racism of the DA attests beyond a shadow of a doubt that the DA has become the last refuge of scoundrels that resist a South Africa that belongs to all who live in it. All the election posters of the DA reveal naked racism that resists the transformation agenda led by the ANC.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, you and I were both listening to the hon member describing the DA as the last refuge of scoundrels. That happens to be the opposition here and it is unparliamentary. I would ask you to tell the hon gentleman to withdraw. [Interjections.] The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I just want to consult with the Table. Hon Gibson, we will give a ruling as we go on, because you have given some words that I didn’t hear from him. They are just giving me the right text, and then we will come back to you. Mr Gibson, are you happy with that - that the hon member should continue in the meantime?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I am always happy with what you say, Madam. [Laughter.]

Mr M R SANTO: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. They will never be satisfied. The DA has the temerity to sloganise: “Stop ANC racism. Vote DA”. The truth of the matter is that only a party with a white ideology and the Nazi tactics of Goebbels can level accusations of racism against the ANC.

The hon member Maluleke recently informed this august House about his humiliation at the hands of DA racists. Is it not scandalous for the DA to declare: “Take your city back”. To add insult to injury, the apostles of “swart gevaar” unashamedly scream for all the people to vote DA.

From the rostrum of this august House the ANC unequivocally states that nobody in South Africa can compare to the ANC in the struggle for a non- racial . . . [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think we are still going to continue respecting each other. Issues like poor Dan. If there is anything related to that, it becomes, hon Maluleke.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Well, we can come to that, Mr Gibson, but I don’t think that we need to waste any time on that. Let us continue respecting the decorum of the House.

                       FINDINGS IN APRM REPORT

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr M V NGEMA (Nadeco): Deputy Speaker, Nadeco would agree with the suggestion that as a country we need to look carefully at the need to balance issues of poverty and underdevelopment which, according to the APRM report, pose a more serious danger from within our borders.

Also, there is the need to secure our interests through peacekeeping missions on the one hand, while on the other, watching the extent of our expenditure on arms. Nadeco is not saying that we should not spend a cent on defence, but rather that an appropriate balance be struck between these two.

Nadeco also thinks that we have not yet completely eradicated political intolerance among political parties, as the report purports. Therefore, we believe the statement that political parties have reached a level of maturity at which they can actively engage each other without resorting to violence to be something of an overstatement, even though it is a noble idea we wish to see realised sooner rather than later. I thank you, Deputy Speaker.

                      PASSENGER SAFETY ON BUSES

                        (Member’s Statement)

Ms N M MDAKA (UIF): Deputy Speaker, two years ago the chairman of the technical committee of the SA Bus Operators Association commented that by implementing a system to manage the quality of their operations and by striving to continually improve safety measures according to the principles and guidelines set out in the standard, bus operators would be able to reduce the number and severity of bus accidents on our roads.

However, a stream of bus accidents recently has raised concern about the safety of bus services. It also highlighted the need for the South African government and law-enforcement authorities, vehicle owners, drivers and all other stakeholders to act decisively to reduce the carnage on our roads.

Many people in our country rely on public transport, and therefore the government must ensure that their mode of transport is regulated to ensure their safety. The UIF hopes that the Department of Transport will fully investigate the recent bus accidents and ensure that those who violate our traffic safety laws are brought to book.

Also, the UIF hopes that the department will take appropriate steps to ensure that its law enforcement is fully capacitated in order to monitor compliance with the Road Safety Act. I thank you.

                       ANC MAYORAL CANDIDATES

                        (Member’s Statement)

Dr P J RABIE (DA): Madam Deputy Speaker, the ANC’s refusal to disclose the names of its mayoral candidates before the local government election demonstrates the ruling party’s contempt for the South African voter. [Interjections.]

The ANC has refused to explain why it is concealing the names of the mayoral candidates from the electorate, so one can only speculate. Could it be that the ANC fears that if it nominates a candidate from the Mbeki faction the Zuma faction will not campaign for that candidate and vice versa? [Interjections.] Or could it be that some ANC candidates are known to be involved in corruption and the ANC fears that the public would not support their candidacy for mayor?

Perhaps the problem is that the ANC knows that voters would refuse to give returning mayoral candidates a second chance. A full 110 ANC municipalities under the leadership of these mayors have been identified by national government as failing to perform their basic functions. Whatever the reason, one thing is clear: by not naming its mayoral candidates the ANC is taking the power of choice away from the people.

Die DA speel oop kaarte met die kieserspubliek en het al sy burgermeesterskandidate aangewys. Die DA is trots op sy kandidate. Hulle het elkeen ’n eerbare loopbaan en ’n goeie rekord van dienslewering. Ek dank u. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The DA has put all its cards on the table as far as the voting public is concerned and has appointed all its mayoral candidates. The DA is proud of its candidates. They all have an honourable career and a good record of service delivery. Thank you. [Interjections.]]

                      JOB CREATION IN ATLANTIS

                        (Member’s Statement)

Me A VAN WYK (ANC): Op Vrydag 10 Februarie was daar weer ’n belegging van R8 miljoen in Atlantis Industrie gemaak met die opening van ’n nuwe fabriek wat voorafbetaalde elektrisiteitsmeters vervaardig. Hierdie ultramoderne fabriek wat 220 mense in diens geneem het, is geopen deur die Kaapstadse burgemeester Nomaindia Mfeketo.

Die burgermeester is daarna na Atlantis se Hartebeeskraal Veeldoelige Sentrum waar ’n tjek van oor die R600 000 oorhandig is. Op ’n vorige geleentheid het die agb burgermeester ook naaimasjiene aan ’n sentrum geskenk om vroue te help met naaldwerkprojekte.

Dit is ’n baie duidelike bewys dat die stad Kaapstad onder die ANC se beheer, ’n stad is wat werk vir die mense van Atlantis. Daarom is dit belangrik dat die mense van Kaapstad en in die besonder die mense van Atlantis, vir die ANC moet stem, sodat hierdie tipe programme van werkskepping en opleiding kan voortgaan en uitgebrei word. Ek dank u. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)

[Ms A VAN WYK (ANC): On Friday 10 February yet another investment of R8 million was made in Atlantis Industry with the opening of a new factory that manufactures prepaid electricity meters. This ultra modern factory, which employs 220 people, was opened by the mayor of Cape Town, Nomaindia Mfeketo.

Thereafter the mayor left for the Atlantis Hartebeeskraal Multipurpose Centre, where a cheque of more than R600 000 was handed over. On a previous occasion the hon mayor also donated sewing machines to a centre to help women with needlework projects.

That is clear evidence that the city of Cape Town, controlled by the ANC, is a city that works for the people of Atlantis. That is why it is important that the people of Cape Town, and in particular the people of Atlantis, should vote for the ANC in order for these types of programmes of job creation and training to continue and be expanded. I thank you. [Applause.]]

                        UNEMPLOYED GRADUATES

                        (Member’s Statement)

Prince N E ZULU (IFP): Deputy Speaker, subsequent to the Deputy President’s response to a question asked in this House towards the end of last year, regarding the fact that many graduates in the country remain unemployed, an important achievement was garnered by the FF Plus when it was asked to submit the CVs of those unemployed graduates and their needs.

The President also made an announcement in his state of the nation address that more of those unemployed graduates would be assisted to get jobs in due course. We congratulate the FF Plus on a job well done, and also thank the Deputy President for her prompt action.

The IFP would like to suggest that this exercise be explored further in order to include other nationals of our country who possess skills necessary for the growth of the economy. We also appreciate the President’s promised interventions in the field of education that may include the elimination of fees for the poorest of our primary schools, and the targeting of maths and science. We submit that his good gesture should be extended to the fields of technology, medicine, diplomacy, law, engineering, etc.

Notwithstanding the fact that the economy has not generated enough jobs, we nonetheless invite the Deputy President to do likewise with other political parties whose membership is as diverse in terms of making South Africa a true rainbow nation. Thank you. [Applause.]


                        (Member’s Statement)

Me E NGALEKA (ANC): Adjunkspeaker, op 26 Junie 1955 het die Congress of the People die Vryheidshandves aanvaar. In die daaropvolgende jaar het die ANC die Vryheidshandves aanvaar by sy nasionale kongres. Die handves het verklaar dat Suid-Afrika aan al sy inwoners behoort. Die handves se visie van ’n gemeenskaplike Afrikaneridentiteit vir al Suid-Afrika se kinders het die pad oopgebreek wat gelei het tot die aanvaarding van ons demokratiese Grondwet. Die Khoi, die San, die Europese immigrante, die nageslagte van die Maleise slawe, die kleinkinders van die Afrikaner, Hintsa, Cetswayo en Sekukhune het almal saam in die Vryheidsmanifes hul gemeenskaplike burgerskap verklaar en soos die President gesê het, niemand kan hul aanspraak dat hulle Afrikaners is, betwyfel nie.

Laat ons hande vat met die viering van die tiende herdenking van ons nasionale Grondwet en laat ons betrokke raak op praktiese maniere met al ons mense, om die lewens van ons land se armes te verbeter en in die proses ’n Suid-Afrika en ’n Afrika te skep, waar daar ewigdurende vrede en vriendskap sal wees. Vandag is beter as gister. Môre sal beter wees as vandag. Ek dank u. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)

[Ms E NGALEKA (ANC): Deputy Speaker, on 26 June 1955 the Congress of the People adopted the Freedom Charter. In the following year the ANC adopted the Freedom Charter at its national congress. The Charter declared that South Africa belongs to all who live in it. The Charter’s vision of a common African identity for all South Africa’s children paved the way that led to the adoption of our democratic Constitution.

The Khoi, the San, the European immigrants, the descendants of the Malay slaves, the grandchildren of the Afrikaner, Hintsa, Cetswayo and Sekukhune together all declared their common citizenship in the Freedom Charter and as the President said: no one can doubt their contention that they are Africans.

Let us join hands in the celebration of the tenth anniversary of our national Constitution and let us become involved with all our people in a practical manner, to improve the lives of our country’s poor and in the process create a South Africa and Africa where there will be everlasting peace and friendship. Today is better than yesterday. Tomorrow will be better than today. I thank you. [Applause.]]


                        (Member’s Statement)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION (DA): Madam Deputy Speaker, corruption is a major election issue. The President has taken some action, which we support, but corruption reaches very near to the top of the ANC. More than a hundred MPs are each repaying tens of thousands of rands arising from the abuse of travel vouchers.

The former presiding officers stated that the accused would face the House and would then be prosecuted. Who changed that policy? Who decided that 24 prosecutions are enough? There is evidence that some of those repaying Parliament committed criminal actions as bad or worse than those of persons who are being prosecuted.

Who limited the scope of the investigation to a fraction of the period in which some travel agents did business? There is ample evidence to indicate huge additional amounts owing to Parliament and involvement by MPs, some of them very senior.

Until all of the aspects of the scandal are investigated and until all the MPs involved are prosecuted, South Africa will know that Parliament is implicated in a huge cover-up and that the ANC is not serious about fighting corruption. [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, Mr Douglas Gibson makes a categorical allegation about members of Parliament being involved in a travel scam. He knows perfectly well that in order for him to make such an allegation, it must be through a substantive motion. I request you, Madam, to rule him out of order and invite him to submit a substantive motion, because this is a serious matter that he is playing with.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam, may I address you on that point of order?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, don’t address me on the point yet.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, Mr Gibson. Mr Gibson, let us now not be emotional. The matter of the abuse of time in the House, to raise matters that are actually not substantive, was raised by the Speaker, and I think the Speaker has raised the matter personally with you. I just need to be guided on this.

Whilst you enjoy the privilege of the House, we also need to continue respecting each other and to be moderate in the way we deal with each other. I do understand the election mode out there – in that we end up bringing it into the House and, of course, that is acceptable.

The Speaker has this approach, which I also feel comfortable about so long as we don’t start accusing members specifically. I was actually going to rule on the earlier statement about the DA being a refuge for scoundrels. The thing is, as long as you are not reflecting on a specific member, you still remain within the Rules.

Now if I heard Mr Gibson properly, in spite of what he is raising – he is raising a number of questions that the Chief Whip is rightfully concerned about - he is not mentioning any member of the House. But I just want to check with the Table staff, because I think that is the right interpretation of the Rule. The Table staff agree with the Deputy Speaker that it is the right approach.

Also, the general impression that we give out there is that this is not correct. We just have to continue asking you, members, that no matter how strongly you feel about something, let us make sure that it remains within the confines of the House and that we maintain the decorum of the House at all times.

I know some of you know the Rules very well, like Mr Gibson, and he will make sure that he won’t mention a person’s name. But the whole thing comes out just as harmful to people who are recipients of it. May I please appeal to all to respect our Rules, but at the same time to make sure that we are moderate in the kind of words we use in terms of each another. I hope members of the House are … Are you against the ruling, hon member?

Ms F I CHOHAN-KHOTA: Not at all, but I want to raise another point of order if I may, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: May I complete this one?


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay. That then concludes the question that we had earlier on, which was raised by the hon member - that the DA did not feel comfortable about - but you did not make mention of any member in particular. It therefore does not make it unparliamentary. Mr Gibson, we have just ruled and let us get to the next point of order. Hon member?

Ms F I CHOHAN-KHOTA: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. In Mr Gibson’s statement that he just made and that you have now made a ruling on, he seems to be quite confident and has alleged there is a widespread cover-up pertaining to investigations around the travel scam.

May I ask, Deputy Speaker, whether it is acceptable for a senior member of Mr Gibson’s calibre to completely mislead not just this House, but also the broader public out there on a matter that is really a very sensitive matter to this House and something that really pertains to the dignity of this House.

May I then suggest that you consider Mr Gibson’s statement in the light of this misleading, completely misleading, knowingly misleading – may I suggest - statement. This is because we all know that there is an investigation. There are prosecutions, and the law takes its course. May I request, Deputy Speaker, that you consider ruling him out of order on the basis that he is completely and utterly misleading the public?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam, may I address you on that?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I know, Mr Gibson, you’d like to have this matter going on and on and on. But, hon members, I think at times we need to come back to our own Rules. Much as you feel uncomfortable with what Mr Gibson is saying, and I think rightfully so, I need to look at what he said in terms of the Rules. Maybe, for the benefit of this sitting, we then have to go back to Hansard and look at Hansard.

But a statement that does not attack an individual member is one of our own Rules. We need to make sure that we make them applicable in situations like this. Let us rather look at the Hansard and come back to you, having looked at the whole text of what Mr Gibson said and give a ruling to hon members.

I am taking advantage of this platform to say: Hon members, let us look at our Rules. Some of our Rules are very relaxed, and some people actually just abuse the Rules because the interpretation, which I know that Mr Gibson … [Interjections.] Mr Gibson, may I plead with you, sir, that when you address us the House listens to you. When other people speak you make interjections.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: When you start giving your opinions about the Rules instead of giving a ruling, then I will interject. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have given a ruling. But as a presiding officer …

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: And you go on and give your opinions about the Rules that are relaxed and some people abuse them. That is not a ruling. You are abusing your position when you say that and I will interject. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am not abusing my position. I am not abusing my position, but as a presiding officer if there is some way in which I can appeal to the House to help us, I should do so. You can’t stop me from doing my work. I am here asking hon members that we relook at some of the Rules that we have. There is nothing wrong with that. I am not abusing any position, and I have made the ruling that I needed to make. I think we should leave the matter there. We still have a slot for the ANC.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is that the last statement from the ANC?


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are you addressing me on?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I am addressing you on a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. In the interests of progress of the House we will be submitting a substantive point of order on the statement that Mr Gibson made and also on making an allegation to the presiding officer to the extent that you are misusing your position. The ANC will submit a point of order.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Is there an advertisement here? He can give any notice he wants. [Interjections.] Madam, you haven’t called for notices of motion.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Chief Whip?


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Douglas Gibson – at least I still know your name. If I want you to make any input in the House, I would call you by your rightful title, hon Douglas Gibson, which I am not doing now.

Hon Chief Whip, I think what the ANC as a party wants to do about this is up to the ANC. Let us leave the matter at that. You still have a slot to address us. There is still one statement from the ANC that we are waiting for. Hon member?


                     PROJECT IN MODIMONG VILLAGE

                        (Member’s Statement)

Ms O R KASIENYANE (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, the North West Premier, the honourable Mrs Edna Molewa, and MEC Howard Yawa, of the Department of Public Works, are to launch a massive multimillion Expanded Public Works Programme project in Modimong Village in the Greater Taung local municipality on Friday, 17 February 2006.

The integrated Modimong project is a replication of the 24th million Modimola EPWP flagship project. In terms of elements of road construction, and household and food security, the project has unique additional elements to stimulate and boost economic activity as part of the Taung development programme.

The Taung development programme is a special high-impact programme and the province’s contribution towards the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative of South Africa, Asgisa. The project adds to the 207 EPWP projects that have thus far created 13 578 job opportunities throughout the province in the current financial year.

The intention of the project in Modimong Village is to alleviate poverty, provide training opportunities and create jobs for unemployed villagers in Modimomg and neighbouring villages. This is evidence that the ANC delivers, and the people of Taung appreciate what the ANC-led government is doing for them. I thank you. [Applause.]

                         RESTITUTION OF LAND

                        (Minister’s Response)

The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, even in the heat of the moment I think it would be appropriate to say Happy Valentine’s Day to all of you – that you still remain with the essence and the spirit of love. Thank you very much.

Sekela Somlomo, ngizokhuluma ngesiZulu ngethembe ukuthi bakhona abazotolika. Ngibonga kakhulu kumalungu eNdlu, ikakhulu uSihlalo weKomidi lezoLimo nezoMhlaba kanye nelungu le-DA elikhulume ngalo lolu daba lokwabiwa kwezomhlaba kanye nokwelekelelwa ngezimali ukuze sikwazi ukusheshisa sibuyisele imihlaba kubaniniyo. Mhlawumbe kuzowathokozisa amalungu ale Ndlu nomphakathi uma ngingasho nje ukuthi njengoba ngikhuluma nje ezicelweni ezazifakiwe zamabanga omhlaba ohlelweni lokubuyiswa komhlaba ezaziyi-79 000, kunamuhla sesiqede eziyi-71 000 okushoyo-ke ukuthi sizoqeda sizoqeda kungekude. [Ihlombe.]

Nokho-ke okubalulekile ukuthi sonke siyavumelana njengoba savumelana emhlanganweni owawubiza bonke abathintekile ukuthi sibheke ukuthi ngabe sesihambe safikaphi kwezomhlaba. Savumelana-ke engqungqutheleni yezomhlaba ukuthi yize ekubuyisweni komhlaba sibe nakho ukugijima ngamandla, ikhona inkinga ekwabiweni komhlaba jikelele njengoba sasivumelene ukuthi kuyofuneka sibuyisele imihlaba ebalelwa kumaphesenti anga-30% kubo labo bantu ababethathelwe amalungelo obunini mhlaba ngaphambilini.

UMongameli-ke, njengoba lishilo ilungu eliphakamile, uthi make sicwaninge ukuthi ngabe le ndlela esithengiselana ngayo njengamanje iyaselekelela yini ukuthi sihambe ngesivinini? Siyavuma-ke nathi siwuhulumeni ukuthi uhamba emazwini ngqo ayeshiwo abantu abathintekile kulolu daba lokuthi make sibhekisise ukuthi ngabe le ndlela ebesiyisebenzisa yiyo kuphela yini, noma zikhona ezinye izindlela okufanele sizisebenzise, njengalezo ezazibalulwe eMthethweni wokuBuyiswa koMhlaba.

Ngiyethembisa-ke kule Ndlu ukuthi sizowenza lowo msebenzi ngoba kufanele ukuthi siwenze. Sethemba futhi ukuthi namalungu ethu eNdlu azovumelana nami, ikakhulukazi lawo athanda ukungcofa athi iziphathimandla zomnyango zenza kancane akhohlwe ukuthi uma ukhuluma ngobudlelwano bokuthengiselana, babili abantu abathintekayo; akusiyena kuphela othengayo. Nalowo othengisile uma engahuduli izinyawo, singakwazi ukushesha. Sethembe-ke ukuthi labo abanabahlobo abanemihlaba ababeyithathile njengamanje bayosheshisa ukuze baselekelele thina sonke. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Deputy Speaker, I will speak in isiZulu, hoping that there are interpreters. I thank the members of the House, mostly the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs and the member of the DA who spoke about this matter of land restitution, and we hope to be supported financially so that we will quickly give back the land to the owners. Maybe it will make the members of this House and the community happy if I can say, as I am talking regarding the applications that were sent for land redistribution, that were about 79 000, and that by now we have dealt with 71 000, which means that we will finish them soon. [Applause.]

What is of importance is that we are all agreeing, as we agreed in the meeting that called all the people who were affected so that we should see as to how far we have dealt with the applications. We concurred at the general summit on land affairs that though in the land restitution we had to rush very fast, there is a problem in land restitution nationally, as we agreed that we must give back about 30% of the land to the people who were previously deprived of the right of ownership of that land.

As the member who has just spoken said, the President says that we must revisit the manner in which we sell to each other so as to see if it helps us to work faster. We concur as the Government that he is on the right track with the people who are affected, because they also say this process must be revisited to find out whether this is the only process or if there are other ways which could be used, like those that are mentioned in the Land Restitution and Reform Laws Amendment Act. I am making a promise to this House that we will do this work because we have to do it. We also hope that the members of this House will concur with me, more especially those who like to criticise by saying our department’s authorities are very slow, forgetting that if you are talking about land redistribution, there are two people involved and that he who is the buyer is not the only one. Even if the one who has sold it is not delaying the process, we could be working faster. We hope that those who have relatives who were deprived of the right of ownership will now do things faster so as to help us all. Thank you. [Applause.]]


                        (Minister’s Response)

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMPILO: Sekela Somlomo, ngicela ukuphendula umhlonishwa uNkk Nkabinde ngephuzu aliphakamisileyo. Okokuqala nje nami engizombuza khona ukuthi njengoba evela e-Richmond, ngabe abantu base-Richmond abawasebenzisi amakhambi endabuko? Angazi ukuthi usho ukuthini uma ethi sisalele ngasemuva ngokunakekela abantu abanesandulelangculaza nalabo abaphethwe yingculaza uqobo lwayo. Angakwazi ukuthi ukuthatha lokho. Ukuba ubenginike inani mhlawumbe besingase sikhulume sizwisisane naye.

Engikwaziyo ukuthi sinohlelo olubizwa nge-Comprehensive Plan ekwelapheni, ekusingatheni, ekunakekeleni nasekwesekeleni abantu abane-HIV ne-AIDS. Angazi noma useyikhohliwe, uma ngabe waweyifundile, ukuthi ikhuluma ngani. Lolo hlelo lwe-Comprehensive Plan isigatshana sama-62 sikhuluma ngamakhambi endabuko. Lolu hlelo lwe-Comprehensive Plan savumelana ngawo ukuthi kuzoba usomqulu wethu lona esizowusebenzisa. Angazi ukuthi useshintshe nini eseyedwa njengoba esethi asingakhulumi ngamakhambi endabuko. Siyoqhubeka sikhulume ngawo amakhambi endabuko ngoba savumelana futhi namazwe onke avumelana nathi ukuthi lo somqulu wethu esinakekela ngawo abantu abaphethwe ingculaza noma abasenesandulelangculaza iyona ndlela okufanela kuhanjiswe ngayo. Ukuba bekungenjalo, ngabe asikhethiwe namhlanje. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, allow me to answer the hon Nkabinde on the point that she raised. Firstly, I want to ask her whether people from Richmond do use traditional medicine or not, because she is from there. I don’t know what she actually means when she says we seem to be lagging far behind when it comes to caring for people with HIV/Aids. I do not know where she got that from. Had she given me the statistics, I would have considered that.

What I know is that we have a plan called the Comprehensive Plan that aims at treating, managing and caring for people with HIV/Aids. I don’t know whether she has forgotten what that plan entails, if she ever read it at all. Section 62 of the Comprehensive Plan talks about the use of traditional medicine. We all agreed that this plan would be our benchmark. I am not too sure when there has been a change of mind on her side, as she now says let us not talk about traditional medicine. We will continue talking about traditional medicine because we all agreed, together with all other countries, that our plan for caring for people with HIV/Aids is the way to go. If it were not so, we would have not been voted in today.]

We are chairing one of the working committees of the Global Steering Committee on HIV/Aids as a country. [Applause.] That must indicate something to Mrs Nkabinde in that we are on track, and I’m satisfied that we are on track. Thank you. [Applause.]


                        (Minister’s Response)

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Deputy Speaker, of course none of us would disagree with the fact that the 94-year-old ANC has unwaveringly unfurled the banner of nonracialism in our country and throughout the world, that it is the vision of the Freedom Charter which was responsible for the positive and democratic principles that are enshrined in our Constitution, and that it was the Freedom Charter that guided this insertion into our Constitution and caused our Constitution to affirm that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity.

We live in hope that the Jekyll and Hyde character of the DA will change, that the DA will awake from its Frankenstein-type slumber and accept that there is no room for racism in the new South Africa, and that the people of this country will not be hoodwinked by racism.

The use of race as part of a campaign platform should cause those responsible to hang their heads in shame, if indeed they have shame. It is especially reprehensible to use such tactics in the Western Cape province, because of the insidious message of prejudice and discrimination it propagates, a racist message that is reminiscent of the awful apartheid past which all of us fought against.

On the matter of the Joint Initiative on Priority Skills Acquisition – Jipsa - I think it is important to confirm to the hon member from the IFP, who raised the matter, that in looking at how we develop skills in our country and attract skills to scarce skills areas – priority skills – we will, of course, be looking at a wide range of persons that can be utilised. That would include skilled persons both in our country and those who are outside South Africa.

However, I think it is important to just state that we would not want to denude other African countries of skills that are available in those countries. So, while we do seek to identify priority skills, we don’t wish to destabilise our region and the continent in terms of available professional skills within them. While Jipsa, as a component, seeks to identify priority skills, the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative of South Africa requires skills development and training for the large part of our populace. Thank you. Am I allowed to continue, Madam?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: To wrap up.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I will wrap up then by responding to the comment that was made with respect to the President’s remarks in the state of the nation address. Clearly, any party is able to provide any list, and every job advertised in South Africa is available for any person to apply for.

I think it’s important that we say what the FF Plus indicated in that they had a list of South Africans that were keen to provide their services to the country, particularly in the technical skills area. There are so many jobs in the technical skills area in South Africa that any person who is qualified should, of course, apply for those posts.

We will intensify our scarce skills strategy, we will do more with respect to training in maths and science, and we will certainly ensure that our educational institutions are ready to provide the kind of training and skills development that will fundamentally alter South Africa’s prospects for economic development. I thank you. [Applause.]


                        (Minister’s Response)

Die ADJUNKMINISTER VAN KUNS EN KULTUUR: Baie dankie, Adjunkspeaker. Ek wil met die agb Ngaleka saamstem as sy sê dat die Vryheidsmanifes verklaar dat Suid-Afrika aan al haar inwoners behoort. Dit sluit in die nageslagte van die Khoi, die San, die migrante van Europe, die Maleise slawe, Afrikaners, en die nageslagte van Hintsa, Cetshwayo en Sekukhune.

En ek wil net sê dat vanjaar vier ons die 10de herdenking van die nasionale Grondwet en ons nooi almal, en spesifiek die DA, om dié jaar saam met ons, saam met al die mense van Suid-Afrika én die ANC, die diverse nasie van ons te bou eerder as om rassehaat aan te hits. Dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans Minister’s Response follows.)

[The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. I want to agree with the hon Ngaleka when she says that the Freedom Charter states that South Africa belongs to all her inhabitants. That includes the descendants of the Khoi, the San, the migrants from Europe, the Malay slaves, Afrikaners, and the descendants of Hintsa, Cetshwayo and Sekukhune.

And I just want to say that this year we are celebrating the 10th anniversary of the national Constitution, and we invite everybody, and particularly the DA, in this year to build this diverse nation of ours, together with all the people of South Africa and with the ANC, rather than to stir up racial hatred. Thank you. [Applause.]]


                        (Minister’s Response)

Die MINISTER VIR DIE STAATSDIENS EN ADMINISTRASIE: Agb Adjunkspeaker, nadat ons geluister het na die Adjunkminister is dit vir my ’n bietjie moeilik om my Afrikaans te toets, want sy was baie goed.

Sy het ook gepraat oor wie ’n Suid-Afrikaner is, en ek wil met haar saamstem, asook met agb Ngaleka, dat vir ons in die banke van die ANC was dit altyd baie duidelik dat ons almal Suid-Afrikaners is, want, in elk geval, deur ons are vloei die bloed van ons voorgeslagte. Dít is die bloed van die Maleise slawe, dit is die kleinkinders van die Afrikaners, dit is die bloed van Hintsa, Cetshwayo en Sekukhune én van al die andere.

Ek dink nie daar is enigiemand in dié Huis wat kan sê die bloed wat deur hul are vloei is nie die bloed wat kom van die voorgeslagte nie, en daarom is dit nodig vir ons om baie nou te kyk na ons Grondwet, én natuurlik na die Vryheidsmanifes. As ons na die Vryheidsmanifes self kyk – en dít kom al van 50 jaar terug – dan was daar nooit ’n onduidelikheid vir die ANC oor wie ’n Suid-Afrikaner is nie. Toe ons gepraat het van wit en swart was dit ook vir ons duidelik dat dit wit, swart, bruin en geel is; dat dit al die mense is en dat dit alomvattend is. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Deputy Speaker, after listening to the Deputy Minister it is a bit difficult for me to test my Afrikaans, because she is very good.

She also spoke about who is a South African, and I want to agree with her, as well as with the hon Ngaleka, that for us on the benches of the ANC it has always been very clear that we are all South Africans, because in any event the blood of our ancestors flows in our veins. It is the blood of the Malay slaves, the grandchildren of the Afrikaners, the blood of Hintsa, Cethswayo and Sekukhune and of all the others.

I do not think there is anybody in this House who can say that the blood flowing in their veins is not blood coming down to us from our forefathers, and that is why it is necessary to look very closely at our Constitution and, of course, at the Freedom Charter. If we look at the Freedom Charter itself – and it dates back fifty years already – then there was never any uncertainty for the ANC as to who is a South African. When we spoke about white and black it was also clear to us that this was white, black, brown and yellow; that it was all the people and that it was all-embracing.]

When we look at the Constitution itself, the founding principles of the Constitution that declare us to be one sovereign democratic state reflect on human dignity, the achievement of equality and the advancement of human rights and freedom. They reflect on nonracialism and nonsexism, and, at no stage, did we make the assumption that the battle for nonracism and nonsexism would be an easy one. At no point did we think that we could wipe away our past in one day.

What is very difficult is when members of Parliament perpetuate race and colour, and I think we need to look at how we overcome that. We have the responsibility, as elected representatives, to do so. We are here as leaders in our country and we must take that leadership responsibility. So let us define the issue of race and colour appropriately, and let us build this nonracial country of ours.


The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Can I just answer a second question that came up, a second statement – a separate issue? The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: It’s just an addition to what the Minister of Education raised, and that was in relation to a very interesting input from the hon Skosana of the IFP. He said to us that as we deal with the issue of skills needs as required by Jipsa and Asgisa, we should be careful about rolling back our political freedoms we have gained. He also spoke about the scramble for what he called scarce resources and so on.

The Minister of Education very clearly spelt out how we would draw on the skills base required. I want to reassure the hon members and others in this House that we have no intention of rolling back our hard-won freedoms.

As we look at the utilisation of resources, whether of retired people or even of those who have taken voluntary severance packages, we will do so in a manner that will regulate their involvement in the process so that we ensure this nonracial democracy we are building - that we fiercely defend – and ensure the economic growth required in the country.

I think you are aware, hon member, that on 10 February the Government Gazette clearly defined the areas of scarce skills, which are now open for those outside of South Africa to apply for in order to have easier access to our labour market. Even that is done in a way that we don’t contribute towards the underdevelopment of the continent. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I know I had indicated to some Ministers that we would take responses from them, but the time allocated for responses has now expired. I really apologise. We can only appeal to Ministers to please be mindful, in your responses, of the fact that your colleagues would also like to respond.



That the report be adopted and forwarded to South Africa’s focal point on the African Peer Review Mechanism to be incorporated into South Africa’s self-assessment country report and programme of action.

Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Are there any objections? The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, on a nonpolitical basis, may I second that. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think Mr Gibson deserves a round of applause. [Applause.] Does that go for all parties? Are there no objections?

Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted.

The House adjourned at 16:58. ____


                      FRIDAY, 10 FEBRUARY 2006


National Assembly

The Speaker

  1. Membership of Assembly
The following member vacated her seat in the National Assembly with
effect from 31 January 2006:

Gillwald, C E.


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

  1. The Minister of Safety and Security
 a) Proclamation No R.65 published in Government Gazette No 28279 dated
    2 December 2005: Notification by President in accordance with
    section 25 of the Protection of Constitutional Democracy against
    Terrorist and Related Activities Act, 2004 (Act No 33 of 2004).

 b) Proclamation No R.66 published in Government Gazette No 28279 dated
    2 December 2005: Notification by President in accordance with
    section 25 of the Protection of Constitutional Democracy against
    Terrorist and Related Activities Act, 2004 (Act No 33 of 2004).


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

INSERT - ARPM Consolidated – Pages 142-189

                      MONDAY, 13 FEBRUARY 2006


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

  1. The Speaker and the Chairperson The Speaker and the Chairperson, on 13 February 2006, called a Joint Sitting of the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces, as follows:


    The Speaker of the National Assembly, Ms B Mbete, and the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, Mr M J Mahlangu, in terms of Joint Rule 7(2), have called a joint sitting of the Houses of Parliament for Tuesday, 14 February 2006 at 14:00 to debate the Report from the Parliamentary Process on the African Peer Review Mechanism.

_______________________                  ________________________
B MBETE, MP                              M J MAHLANGU, MP
SPEAKER OF THE                           CHAIRPERSON OF THE

Date: ____________________    Date: ___________________
  1. The Speaker and the Chairperson
We would like to highlight the  following  matters  in  regard  to  the
debate on the Report from the Parliamentary Process on the African Peer
Review Mechanism at the Joint Sitting on Tuesday 14 February 2006.


    The Chairperson of  the  National  Council  of  Provinces  and  the
    Speaker of the National Assembly, acting jointly, have  called  the
    Joint Sitting in terms of Joint Rule 7(2).

      1) There are no comprehensive rules  governing  debates  at  Joint
         Sittings. The NA and the NCOP Rules on Order in Meetings and on
         Rules of Debate (including the Chair’s disciplinary powers) are
         not identical.
      2)  Joint Sittings are governed  by  Joint  Rules  7  to  14.  The
         following Joint Rules apply specifically to debate:

         JR 12: When the Houses sit jointly –
              a) the Assembly Rules on discipline remain applicable  to
                 an Assembly member; and
              b) the Council Rules on discipline remain applicable to a
                 Council member.

         JR 13: (1) An  Assembly  or  Council  member,  other  than  the
              officer presiding at a joint sitting, may  not  speak  at
              the sitting –
              1.  unless invited to do so by the presiding officer; or
              2.  without having obtained the permission of the Speaker
                 and the Chairperson of the Council before the meeting.
                   i.  No vote or decision may be taken by or in a joint
                   sitting. (In this
                        regard the  Houses will meet separately to  take
                   a decision on the

    In terms of Joint Rule 2(1), the Speaker and the Chairperson of the
    Council, acting jointly, may give  a  ruling  or  make  a  rule  in
    respect of any matter for which the Joint Rules do not  provide.  A
    rule made by the  Presiding  Officers  remains  in  force  until  a
    meeting of the  Joint  Rules  Committee  has  decided  on  it.  The
    Presiding Officers have now framed the following  Joint  Rules  for
    application  in  the  Joint  Sitting  scheduled  for  Tuesday,   14

      1) Order in Joint Sitting and Rules of Debate

    With the exception of disciplinary rules which are provided for  in
    Joint Rule 12 the rules of  Debate  and  the  Rules  and  Order  in
    Meetings of the NA and the NCOP apply to the debate  in  the  Joint
    Sitting to the extent that those  Rules  are  compatible  with  one
    another and to the extent that they are consistent with the purpose
    and nature of the debate at the Joint Sitting.

      2) Offensive language

    No member may use offensive or unbecoming language in  relation  to
    any other member of either House,  including  Cabinet  members  and
    special   delegates   of   the   NCOP,   and    local    government
    representatives, who are present at the Joint Sitting.

      3) Calling of members and time limits

    For purposes of Joint Rule 13, members are called in the debate  by
    the presiding officer  in  accordance  with  a  list  of  scheduled
    speakers  and  the  time  allocated  for  speeches  by  members  of
    different parties and of both Houses.
      4) Charge against a member

    If information charging a member of either House comes  before  the
    Joint Sitting, such information may not be proceeded  upon  at  the
    Joint Sitting, but must be reported to the House concerned  at  its
    next sitting.

      5) Podium

    Members may only speak from the podium, except –
      a) to raise a point of order or a question of privilege, and
      b) to furnish a personal explanation in terms of Rule 69 of the NA
         or rule 50 of
       the NCOP.

    The following procedural issues will be dealt with as  a  practical
    application of the Joint Rules and the additional Rules:

      1) Questions: Any member may, through the Chair, put a question to
         the member speaking.
      2) Points of order: Any member may raise a point of order  on  any
         procedural issue that may arise.
      3) Presiding Officer: Joint Rule  10  envisages  that  either  the
         Speaker or the  Chairperson  of  the  Council,  by  arrangement
         between them, will preside – by implication, for  the  duration
         of the Joint Sitting. The Presiding Officers will agree on  who
         will preside at various times according to a  roster  drawn  up
         for that purpose.
      4) Relief of Presiding Officers:  Despite  Joint  Rule  11  (which
         envisages an Assembly or Council member taking the chair  at  a
         joint  sitting  when  requested  to  do  so  by  the  Presiding
         Officer),  in  this  instance  only  other  elected   presiding
         officers  will  be  used  to  relieve  the  Speaker   and   the
         Chairperson of the Council.
      5) Conduct of visitors on the  gallery:  Despite  Joint  Rule  14,
         which states that the Speaker must consult the  Chairperson  of
         the Council when exercising her powers, the Presiding  Officers
         should agree in advance that either may  use  their  discretion
         when applying the relevant NA Rules 40 to 42 and  the  relevant
         NCOP Rules 26 to 28 and that for that purpose it will be deemed
         that consultation took place.
      6) Changes to speakers’ list: Any changes to  the  speakers’  list
         that may affect the allocation of time to the  Houses  must  be
         effected by the Table only after the concurrence of  the  Chief
         Whip of the Majority Party in the Assembly and the  Chief  Whip
         of the Council.


  Date:………………………                    Date:…………………………….

                      TUESDAY, 14 FEBRUARY 2006


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

  1. Classification of Bill by Joint Tagging Mechanism
 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism on 13 February 2006 in terms of
     Joint Rule 160(6)(b), classified the following Bill as a section
     75 Bill:

     (i)     Government Immovable Asset Management Bill [B 1 – 2006]
          (National Assembly – sec 75) 2.    Draft Bill submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

 (1)    Division of Revenue Bill, 2006, submitted by the Minister of
     Finance on 8 February 2006. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and the Select Committee on Finance.


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

  1. The Minister of Housing
(a)     Report and Financial Statements of Servcon Housing Solutions
    (Proprietary) Limited for 2004-2005, including the Report of the
    Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.