National Assembly - 09 November 2005
WEDNESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2005 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 15:03.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
RESCHEDULING OF QUESTIONS
(Announcement)
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I wish to announce that, at the request of the Deputy President, and by agreement amongst parties, questions to the Deputy President have been rescheduled for Wednesday, 16 November 2005.
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY: The Minister
PEACE AND SECURITY
(Cluster 1)
Racism in the legal profession
- Mr M J Malahlela (ANC) asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:
(1) Whether she has found that the Chief Justice handled the
allegations of racism in the Cape High Court satisfactorily; if
not, why not; if so, what does she base her findings on;
(2) what will the extent of her or her department’s assistance be to
the judiciary in dealing with or rooting out racism in the legal
profession? N2294E
The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, yes, I am satisfied with the manner in which the Chief Justice and judge presidents have dealt with the matter raised by the hon member. It has always been the government’s standpoint that the leadership within the judiciary must confront the race row head-on, and act decisively on the matter. I am of the opinion that the judiciary has done exactly that in this regard.
I wish to bring to the attention of the hon member and the House at large that the heads of courts recently adopted a report on racism and sexism. The report raised issues of critical importance, and further confirmed the stance of government on a need to retrain the judicial officers to change their mindsets. The report stated, amongst other things, that:
It is clear that the allegations of racism and sexism in the judiciary go to the heart of judicial responsibility and commitment to be faithful to the Republic of South Africa, to uphold and protect the Constitution and the human rights entrenched in it.
Because of our history, racism and sexism are attitudes engraved in our society. The judiciary is part of that society. We accept that racism and sexism are also present within the judiciary and the legal profession. It, accordingly, makes sense for the entire judiciary to embrace the concept of judicial training, of which diversity training is a part, in order to correct the legacy of the past, and to fulfil the requirement of transformation.
Therefore, hon member, the department is committed to working with the judiciary in promoting nonracism and nonsexism. We are studying the report with the view of assisting as best we can. I thank you.
Mr M J MALAHLELA: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon Minister. The Chief Justice of the Republic of South Africa, together with the heads of courts, has dealt with the problem of the Cape High Court. After the matter had been dealt with, the judicial officer in question decided to take refuge in a museum which had nothing to do with the separation of powers. What would the Minister’s view be regarding the question of racism, not necessarily in the judiciary per se but in the entire legal profession: the general council of advocates, which is the Bar; the law societies of the Republic of South Africa; practical legal training; universities? We must begin with the seed that germinates racism, in its totality, within the profession, as opposed to dealing with it in piecemeal fashion.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, do you have a question? You are now beyond your one minute.
Mr M J MALAHLELA: Madam Speaker, as I have said, I would like to know: What is the view of the Minister in regard to what I have just said? Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, I am trying to get to the heart of the question. [Laughter.] I just want to say that I am aware that there has been very robust debate in the public arena around issues relating to the Cape Bench and the legal profession in this province, and that the debates take a divide in a certain direction. I just want to assure the hon member that I am confident that the judiciary is going to deal with this matter, and that the legal profession itself is seized with this matter.
I had the privilege of being in Port Elizabeth recently to address a meeting, and I am certain that all are seized with this particular challenge of racism and sexism within the legal sector. I am confident that, together, we will work at it. While transforming the legal sector, broadly speaking, we will be engaging the matter very decisively in the first half of next year.
As you know we were preparing to get into dialogue with the sector, broadly speaking, around standards and norms, using the method that has become traditional, and that is of considering a charter for the legal services.
Mrs S M CAMERER: Madam Speaker, although there is currently silence from the Cape High Court, no one can pretend that the problems there have yet been solved by the Chief Justice, because the lawyers who made allegations against Judge President Hlope have not withdrawn them. And, as the previous questioner has said, the judge who feels aggrieved by Judge Hlope’s actions has gone public and filed his papers with the archives.
The long-term solution for racism in the judiciary, as set out in the Chief Justice’s report, is predicated on - and I quote from the report:
…the willingness on the part of government to make the necessary financial resources for education and training, including diversity training, available.
So, although the Minister has done the right thing by keeping out of the row, because it is for the judiciary to resolve, she does have a role. She could tell us, perhaps, in this House, whether she has costed the implications of this, and what amount will be set aside by her department for the purpose of training and education judges in the next financial year. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, silence is golden. The hon member is aware that the very matter of judicial training is new in the sense that it is a matter that we are seized with now, in reality. In the past donor funding was relied on for training but we, as government, are committed to look for and to put resources aside for judicial training of all kinds. In fact, it is a matter that we are discussing with the heads of courts. It is a matter that we discussed at the last heads of court meeting prior to the Judicial Service Commission’s sitting. So the report comes as the matter is being considered by the judiciary and ourselves.
We have not costed the report. We are still studying the report, as I have indicated. In due course we will make announcements about how much has been set aside for judicial training. Mr S N SWART: Madam Speaker, arising from the hon Minister’s response, whilst the Chief Justice may have achieved a compromise in the one dispute between senior lawyers and the Cape Judge President, there are clearly deep divisions within the Cape High Court. They have been polarised over various allegations of racism. As has been pointed out, the issue surrounding the Mikro Primary School case has, to my knowledge, not been resolved, and has resulted in the extraordinary step of the judge filing copies of correspondence with the national archive, after purportedly not obtaining a response from the Chief Justice.
Hon Minister, will the process of facilitation under the Land Claims Court judge president, Judge President Bam, address this and other incidents, as well as attempt to repair the division among colleagues on the Cape Bench and Benches elsewhere? I thank you.
The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, the member is actually raising a broader problem. I really think that, as South Africans, we ought to know better. We have a legacy of racism and sexism in our society, and we ought to address it holistically.
I am confident that institutions that have been set aside through our constitutional dispensation to attend to those matters will be proactive and prioritise the area. But, we also need to find ways in which we will promote dialogue. We should really encourage our people not to be denialists, and it was said that it is a problem that is part of our legacy, but one that we are challenged to eradicate.
Mrs P DE LILLE: Madam Speaker, I want to find out from the Minister whether the training will include magistrates too, because there have been allegations of racism in other courts in the country as well. My concern is: How are we going to maintain the separation of powers and observe the independence of the judiciary when we deal with the transformation there? I don’t think we must confuse transformation of the judiciary with their independence. I am really worried and think that we should not have the executive dictating too much to the judiciary on what needs to be done. Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, I hope I have understood the hon member well. It is a tribute to the late Dullah Omar, the first Minister for Justice in the new dispensation, that he took steps to, so to speak, emancipate the lower courts, the magistracy, by laying the foundation of truly making the magistracy independent. I can say that that process will be completed when this House passes the Superior Courts Bill, because one of the purposes of the Superior Courts Bill is to establish a single judiciary.
Coming to the question of training of the magistracy, it follows that if we indeed are going to set aside finance for the training of the judiciary, implied in that is the inclusion of the magistracy.
Factors affecting the functioning of intelligence agencies
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Adv P S Swart (DA) asked the Minister for Intelligence:
(1) Whether the current legislation and regulations governing the functioning of the intelligence agencies have weaknesses that are open to abuse; if so, what weaknesses;
(2) whether he intends reviewing the definition of the political intelligence mandate of the National Intelligence Agency; if not, why not; if so, what steps will be taken in this regard;
(3) whether tensions within a certain political organisation (name furnished) could threaten the proper functioning of the intelligence agencies; if not, why not; if so, what steps will be taken in this regard? N2312E
The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Madam Speaker, I have announced a review of the legislation, internal regulations and operating procedures governing the intelligence services with a view to determining whether there are any gaps or ambiguities that need to be tightened up. This review is in fact not new and forms part of a broader appraisal taking place in the intelligence community, and is evaluating a wide range of matters so as to ascertain whether the current policy, legislative and organisational framework, still accords to our needs and priorities.
A team chaired by the national co-ordinator for intelligence has been established for this purpose. Given the initial findings of the investigation of the inspector-general, I have extended his mandate to include a review of the internal policies of the services governing the conduct of operations in particular, so as to ensure there are adequate safeguards in respect of compliance with the constitutional and legislative imperatives.
Secondly, any professional service must be in a position to forewarn the policy-maker regarding any developments, be they in the political or any other sphere, which would threaten the security and wellbeing of its citizens. This mandate is not unique to our country. Intelligence services world-wide are expected to provide information on such matters, and we must ensure that our services are able to perform this function, obviously within the bounds of the law.
The mandate, in respect of political intelligence, is sound. Issues that would attract attention would include political intolerance, inter-or intraparty conflict of a violent nature, or opposition to democratisation. Intelligence services are required to provide insight into the conditions giving rise to these threats, as well as recommendations to the policy- makers on ways in which to deal with them in an effective manner so as to prevent or minimise their potential disruptive effects.
Lest the hon member has a short memory, the importance of this political intelligence mandate was reflected in the intelligence and security services’ successful endeavours in bringing about stability in KwaZulu- Natal in the early stages of our transition to democracy.
The answer to the third part of the question is that our political landscape provides for and protects the rights of individuals and political parties to voice their opinions without fear of prosecution, provided, of course, that this is exercised within the framework of the law. Free political activity can never be a threat to national security; in fact, it serves to strengthen our democracy.
We have demonstrated our commitment to ensure that our intelligence services never repeat the abuses of the apartheid past. To this end, they are guided by the provisions in our Constitution, which defines them as national assets that are concerned with the security of all our people. Members are therefore expected to be politically nonpartisan, and may not undermine or promote any political party, organisation or faction at the expense of another. Measures designed to interfere with the legitimate political processes are outlawed. Members who disregard these principles and put their personal interests above that of the national interest will be dealt with in a decisive manner.
Finally, in order to ensure that these principles are entrenched throughout the intelligence services, I am in the process of developing a civic education programme to educate all members as to what is expected. Thank you.
Adv P S SWART: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the Minister for his swift action and comprehensive answer. We have been engaged in this debate about political intelligence for some time, and what we have recently seen may best be described as the worst possible manifestation of your department’s so-called political intelligence mandate. It is a mandate so vague and wide, and I quote “ensuring political stability”. It is clearly an open invitation to abuse. I accept the extension given to your task team to also review the agencies in terms of the conducting of operations.
But, Minister, I want to ask you a very straight question. In tightening this mandate and sorting these things out, at what level do you think decisions on the gathering of political intelligence should be taken; and what should be the very specific criteria? Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: I would disagree that the political intelligence mandate is as wide as the hon member claims. I have also situated this in an international context, hon member. We are not unique and we are not different. Political intelligence together with economic- centred intelligence, intelligence related to society as a whole or the international situation, must be a subject matter for any intelligence service. But, one learns from experiences, and clearly aspects that we have encountered recently need to be governed at the very highest level.
I do understand that – and every member of the House representing a political party would themselves be personally interested in the answer – up to now, there has been a great deal left at the director-general level. The review that is being undertaken and, in fact, on my insistence as of very recently, is that this has to be brought before the Minister. Now, this has, in fact, been an understanding. Regarding anything of that kind of sensitive nature, any Minister on the government benches, in terms of running their departments, would expect anything that is strategic and sensitive to the national interests to be presented to the Minister.
What I am seeking to do through looking at the regulations, and this will be discussed with the Standing Committee on Intelligence, of which you are a member, is precisely to ensure that there cannot be abuse. Therefore the Minister must actually have that control. Thank you.
Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Speaker, firstly, I must thank the hon Minister for his quick actions. Minister, I just want to know the following. You said the mandate had been extended for the inspector-general in order to close the gaps between the law that you have now and the new Bill that you want to introduce. Minister, how long will that take before the inspector- general comes back?
Secondly, Mr Minister, it seems as if there is an agreement between you and Mr Njenje. Do you think that that agreement will not bounce back to you politically if, maybe, Mr Njenje gives the information that he has to other people and not exactly to the department but to other people outside the categories or the agreement that you have with him? Will that not jeopardise your position then?
Thirdly, Mr Minister, regarding the people who are being suspended, is there anything that is being done to make sure that their suspension is cut off somewhere? Are they are being fired or not, so that we know exactly where we are? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: I just want to correct the hon member: the inspector-general’s inquiry that I referred to is not the same one as the inquiry into the overall policy framework and regulations of the national co-ordinator for intelligence that I referred to. The inquiry by the inspector-general relates to recent occurrences pertaining to surveillance operation regarding a certain gentleman, and further inquiry into the hoaxes – as I refer to them, e-mails which have been doing the rounds.
The time and date for this as well as for the broader enquiry into the regulations will not be open-ended. But, firstly, the inspector-general’s inquiry will depend on what is further unearthed in terms of his inquiry. However, I should not expect it to go on for more than a month or so. The other inquiry into the regulations will be sometime during the early part of next year, because that will look at a very wide range of issues.
Regarding the question of agreement with Mr Njenje, in terms of that agreement he is still assisting the inspector-general. So, that continues and I believe that his assistance will be positive.
The final point, in relation to suspensions, is that I do not believe in long-term suspensions, as you have already seen regarding Mr Njenje’s case. Concerning the co-operation that we receive from the director-general and the third member of the National Intelligence Agency who is under suspension, a lot depends on their co-operation with the inspector-general. That is why Mr Njenje’s case was able to be concluded so quickly. Thank you.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Madam Speaker, members of the public want to be assured that they have the intelligence agencies that are professional, efficient and nonpartisan in their service of their country. They also want the perceived weaknesses that are open to abuse to be corrected as a matter of urgency, so that the agencies will enjoy the confidence of all our people.
Some security experts say the education and training given the operatives must go beyond the techniques of the trade, and must include the ability to rise above political affiliations. So, will the hon Minister inform the House if the training of intelligence officers does include teaching them how they should address matters of political affiliations when they deal with conflicts within a party or parties within the contexts of national security? Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: In fact, in terms of the training programme, this certainly has been covered. But I am not satisfied that it has been covered sufficiently, which is why I have announced and already made reference to some measures which are being taken. This particularly relates to a programme that we will be working on, which I hope to introduce soon, and that is what I term a “civic education programme for the services”. That civic education programme would cover all the aspects that the hon member has referred to.
I would certainly hope that the measures which have been taken and the measures which we are taking, and the seriousness with which the services have responded to the steps that I have taken, would serve to assure the citizens of this country, the people of this country, irrespective of political party and persuasion, that, in fact, we are working to overcome weaknesses in order to strengthen our intelligence services and to make them truly professional.
The SPEAKER: Hon Frolick?
Dr S C CWELE: Madam Speaker, Minister . . . [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I didn’t know that the hon Chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence had been renamed “Frolick”. [Laughter.] The name Frolick appears here. However, hon member, you are at liberty to proceed.
Dr S C CWELE: We have crossed seats, Madam Speaker.
Minister, we all know that the democratic government, led by the ANC, have ensured that the intelligence services function and operate in terms of the Constitution and laws passed by this House. Review of policies and laws, hence, is a normal process in any democratic dispensation.
The National Intelligence Agency in particular has a mandate to ensure national stability and security. But NIA has no interests in the normal party-political functioning or internal affairs of the parties, except where such activities involve unconstitutional methods or unlawful activities. Can the Minister assure this House that there is no threat to our national security or our constitutional democracy? Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Yes, I want to thank the “hon Frolick” and I want to say “siyabonga” [thank you] to him. [Laughter.] I want not only to assure him but, through him, assure all members of this House and our country that there is no threat to our national security in terms of the recent developments that I have been addressing. This is not a threat to the stability of this country. It is not a question of civil war, as some so-called experts have been claiming in the media that have been commenting on such eventualities.
What we have seen happening is far less serious and critical than the kind of problems in the intelligence community of United Kingdom and United States of America that we have seen recently. So, again, we are not unique in finding ourselves with a problem within our service or indeed regarding some issues that affect the politics of a country. It is a great exaggeration and crudification of what is taking place in our country to try and claim that this is something that is inherently unstable. I therefore agree with the hon Cwele, the chairperson of the standing committee. I do, again, wish to reassure all that you can go to bed and have a good night’s rest tonight – even Douglas Gibson, after a nice cup of warm Milo, nothing else.
Remuneration of soldiers deployed in foreign countries
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Mr V B Ndlovu (IFP) asked the Minister of Defence:
Whether soldiers deployed in foreign countries are adequately remunerated in order to maintain a satisfactory living standard in the country of their deployment; if not, why not; if so, (a) what are the relevant details and (b) how is such remuneration calculated? N2309E
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, South African soldiers deployed in foreign countries are adequately catered for. Where soldiers are deployed and their needs catered for in terms of accommodation and meals, they qualify for additional allowances as follows.
Firstly, danger allowance amounts to R6,58 per day. Secondly, they also qualify for special danger allowance, which amounts to R9,86 per day. They also qualify for standby allowance in terms of which they have to be available 24 hours a day, around the clock, and that amounts to R31,00 per day. Fourthly, they qualify for a deprivation allowance – if members who asked this question from the opposition would listen – where infrastructure is lacking and that amounts to R71,13 per day. Fifthly, in terms of international obligations, they also qualify for a special daily allowance, which is for incidental expenditure. That really amounts to cost of living determined from the financial manual issued by the Department of Public Service and Administration for incidental expenses calculated at 30% of the tariff.
Sixthly, a soldier deployed in the DRC or Burundi – in keeping with what I’ve just said – where accommodation and meals are supplied, would be compensated by an amount of R390,45 per day, or R11 713,50 per month, Mr Meshoe. Where meals are not supplied in the above scenario, a meal allowance at the equivalent of US$25 per day is provided. Over and above this, the United Nations makes provision for the payment of a water allowance of $1,28 per day, or supplies water, or both.
Where soldiers are deployed and are not supported in terms of accommodation and meal needs, the full amount of their accommodation is covered by the employer and the maximum amount payable, which is 100% for meals and incidental expenses as determined in the financial manual of the Department of the Public Service and Administration, is usually paid.
These tariffs are fully taxable after 42 days abroad, in terms of the Income Tax Act, 1962, as amended. The payments made, for example, in the DRC would then amount to R953,70 per day. This amount would excludes deprivation allowance as a soldier would be excluded currently from this dispensation as accommodation is usually supplied in hotels or the like and the infrastructure is therefore not necessarily lacking. This amount does not reflect the cost of their accommodation, which is covered additionally. The income generated would be R28 611 per month, of which a maximum amount of R10 875,12 would be required to cover taxation. A balance of R17 735,88 is left for the soldier to cover his or her costs for self-sustainment.
The amounts, as per the paragraph I’ve just read, vary from country to country as the larger portion of the amounts paid relate to cost-of- living–based tariffs to cover accommodation, meals and incidental expenses. I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mnu V B NDLOVU: Somlomo kanye neNdlu ehloniphekile, mhlonishwa ngiyathokoza ngempendulo yakho. Umhlonishwa ukhulume ngokuthi okunye okwenziwa ngalezi zimali azibalile eziningi … engidida ngamabomu umhlonishwa ebala izimali eziningi.
Uthe kodwa, maqondana noMnyango wezemiSebenzi kaHulumeni nezokuPhatha, obuye ubale ezinye zalezi zimali, lokho kuphuma khona emgomweni wakhe. Bake baya kodwa lapho kuhlala khona amasosha abezoMnyango wezemiSebenzi kaHulumeni nezokuPhatha?
Okwesibili, bayayazi impilo yakhona njengoba bebala lo-30% okukhulunywa ngawo? Ngiyezwa ngalezi ezinye izimali eziseceleni – ziyeke nje. Ngikhuluma ngalena evela kuMnyango wezemiSebenzi kaHulumeni nezokuPhatha ngoba kuyahlupha ukuthi omabhalane abahleli emahhovisi kube yibona ababala izimali baze baqede ngabantu abasempini, futhi kube yibona ababala izimali baqede ngabantu abathola ukuhlupheka okuyisimangaliso ngaphandle bengazange baye nokuya khona.
Umbuzo-ke wami mhlonishwa engiwubhekise kuwena uthi: Ngoba uphethe abantu abaphethe izibhamu laphaya, laba bantu ababala le mali bake baya yini laphaya bafike babona ukuthi kufanele yini bayihole le mali laba bantu? [Uhleko.] Ngikusho lokho-ke mhlonishwa ngoba mhlawumbe izikhalo ngeke zifike kuwena ngoba wena uqhelelene nabo kodwa kulula kithina njengoba thina siyaya kubona siye kobabheka nje. Babuye bayikhulume le ndaba. Ngizoyixoxa nawe-ke mhlonishwa. Awungixoxele, bayakwenza lokhu? (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Speaker and hon members of this august House, I am pleased about the answer that has been given. The hon Minister spoke about other things done with this money that he mentioned . . . the hon Minister gave a lot of facts about money, confusing me deliberately.
Regarding the Department of Public Service and Administration, he also mentioned some of these moneys; this was in terms of his policies. Has the Department of Public Service and Administration been to the area where the solders stay?
Secondly, are they aware of the life they are living there, as they are referring to 30%? I understand about other moneys on the other side – let us leave them out of this. I am referring to the moneys determined by the Department of Public Service and Administration, because it is inconvenient for the secretaries staying in offices to calculate the money up to the end for people who are involved in the war, and they calculate the money up to the end for the people who suffer a lot, apart from them going there.
My question to you, hon Minister, is: As a leader who leads people carrying guns in your area, can you tell me whether these people who calculate this money have ever been to that area to see whether they are supposed to earn that money? [Laughter.] Hon Minister, I say this because the complaints might not reach you, as you are very far from them, but it is easy for us as we go and check on them. They sometimes talk about this matter. Hon Minister, I will discuss it with you. Tell me, are they doing that?]
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUVIKELA: Somlomo, mangithi kumhlonishwa maqondana nombuso lapha ekhaya, uma kuthunyelwa abantu ukuthi bayosebenza njengoba bengamasotsha, kukhona izimali ezinqunywa yiNhlangano yeZizwe yokubabhekelela labo bantu abakulesi simo. Okusho ukuthi-ke, ngokwamazinga abekwe yiNhlangano yeZizwe, siphoqelekile ukuthi siwalandele. Emva kwalokho kuvela isimo lapho kutholakala ukuthi kukhona ezinye izinto ezingaphezu kwalokho ezifuna ukuthi sizisebenze thina sesilandela umthetho walapha ekhaya. Uma umthetho ungasiniki indlela yokuthi kufanele sihambe kanjani, kusho ukuthi uma sinabashana lapho singabanika imali eningi nje ngokuthanda kwethu. Yingakho-ke uMnyango wezemiSebenzi kaHulumeni nezokuPhatha usho ukuthi uma umuntu ethunyelwe ezweni elingaphandle unelungelo lokukhokhelwa inani elithile lemali. Leyo nto-ke yenza ukuthi-ke kungabi bikho ingxaki yokuthi kube khona izimali ezilahlekayo noma sizisebenzise nje ngendlela engekho emthethweni.
Ngisho ukuthi-ke nalezi zimali ebengizibala-ke ziyizimali zokwengezelela, akuzona izimali eziyisisekelo sokuthi umuntu uzohlala kanjani lapho ethunyelwe khona. Sanelisekile nje kulo mnyango ngokuthi nokho izimali lezi njengoba zabiwe umbuso nje ziyasiza futhi zonke izimfuno zabantu siyakwazi ukuzibhekelela. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)
[The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, in response to the question by the hon member, soldiers who are deployed on peacekeeping missions receive certain allowances that are determined by the United Nations. Therefore, we are obliged to comply with the standards set by the United Nations. In addition to that, there are certain things that we need to do, and we do so by following our domestic policies.
If the law did not provide how things should be done, it would mean that if we had nephews and nieces we could just give them as big an amount of money as we pleased. That is why the Department of Public Service and Administration makes provision for a person deployed to another country to receive a certain amount of money. That policy helps us not to have problems in respect of moneys that have been used improperly.
What I am explaining is that these allowances that I have referred to are additional allowances and are not meant for basic needs such as accommodation for a person deployed in another country. Our department is satisfied that the budget allocated to us by the state is really of help in satisfying the needs of staff. Thank you. [Applause.]]
Mr H B CUPIDO: Madam Speaker, Mr Minister, the ACPD is pleased with the way you have reported now and in the way our men and women in uniform are looked after. What I would like to know, Mr Minister, is how many South African soldiers are currently deployed in other countries in the world, and what is the possibility of this number increasing over the short term? Thank you.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUVIKELA: Somlomo, angazi noma lo mbuzo uphuma kule mpendulo ekade ngiyinikeza kodwa sengathi umbuzo omusha nje. [Uhleko.] Nokho-ke, mangisho ukuthi amasosha onke angaphandle asendaweni yase-Great Lakes angaphezulu kwe-6 300. Okusho ukuthi lapha ngaphakathi kunamasosha angako futhi alinde ukuthi uma kubuya lawo angaphandle, lawa angaphakathi akwazi ukuthatha indawo yalawo abengaphandle. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, I do not know whether this question is a follow-up question from the response that I have given, but it sounds like a new question. [Laughter.] The number of soldiers deployed in the Great Lakes is more than 6 300. This means that we also have the same number of soldiers inside the country who will be deployed abroad when those companies that are abroad come back. Thank you.]
Mr S B NTULI: Madam Speaker, Minister, thank you for an informative and elaborative answer highlighting that the department and the SA National Defence Force do have policies and standards governing the remuneration of members of the SANDF deployed both inside and outside the country, with the addition that those deployed outside the country are regulated by United Nations policy guidelines.
Would the Minister indicate whether there are further incentives for those deployed outside the country, so as to encourage and motivate them to take further deployments when time calls? Thanks.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, the principal motivation for South Africans serving international obligations of this nature must, of course, be that these young men and women, inspired by the values of our Constitution, are going out there because of their commitment to regional, continental and world peace. Secondly, the conditions in which they serve are conditions we take very seriously. We want to make those conditions comfortable for them, and we want to inspire and motivate them to be able to do their work to their maximum extent.
Of course, all these South Africans serving in these peace missions go into the registers of the United Nations organisation. It is as they move on, in years to come, that some of them will be recognised by the nations of the world as people who have done service in this way. With the experience they have, they will probably have the capacity to lead these missions in time to come.
Back at home, we consider these men and women as having a crucial role of leadership in our communities. We will always recommend them for specialised further obligations to our nations. Some of them, especially those who are more or less advanced in years - generals and so on - are now being used as ambassadors in various countries. They are actually graduating to do that. It is part of the experience that they have gained there which qualifies them to play these kinds of roles.
Some of them, of course, will, in increasing numbers, be getting into the United Nations Peacekeeping organisation in New York. We are going to send some more and others are being seconded there. There are tremendous amounts of opportunities that present themselves for those who serve in this way. I thank you. [Applause.]
Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, it is understandable that our peacekeepers are not expected to be housed in luxurious hotels. However, it is important to ensure that at least minimum hygiene and health standards are maintained. In some areas the conditions are quite deplorable. For example, if you take Bunia, in the DRC, where our battalion headquarters are located, the living conditions for the members who are of the ranks of corporal and downwards leave much to be desired. There are no proper shower facilities; toilets are not functional. In fact, I have learnt that there are only 10 toilets for approximately 800 members. They have to go without fresh, clean drinking water sometimes for up to two weeks owing to a lack of chemicals for water purification. This must surely affect the morale of our peacekeepers. Minister, what do you intend to do in order to improve the living conditions, especially for the members of the lower ranks? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Well, Madam Speaker, first of all, I have supported and even provided transportation for the members of the committee to travel to the DRC to see for themselves the conditions under which our soldiers serve. I’m not sure which part of the DRC Mr Shah was at but if, for instance, he was in Kinshasa, it is not possible for him to say what he is saying. It’s absolutely fallacious to say that there are no showers, no bedding, no toilets, no bread and other things for two weeks and things like that. [Interjections.] Where? [Interjections.] I’m sorry, I do want to hear what he’s saying.
The SPEAKER: Hon Minister, maybe the two of you could have a whole session after this sitting.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, I cannot leave the House with a completely fallacious assertion that there are conditions for SA National Defence members serving in the DRC that are unacceptable. It’s absolutely fallacious. There’s no foundation whatsoever for what he has said.
The SPEAKER: I think the hon Minister can only answer whatever you’ve heard. The rest we will really . . .
Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: Madam Speaker, if you allow me, I’ll clarify.
The SPEAKER: You can clarify.
Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: Thank you. Minister, I did not make a general statement. I did not generalise. I agree that conditions in places such as Kindu, Kinshasa and other places that I have visited are quite adequate. I specified some areas and I gave you an example of one specific area where for people ranked corporal and below, the situation is quite deplorable. So, it’s the battalion headquarters in Bunia. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, may I say to the House without fear of contradiction that in all of the conditions in which South African soldiers are serving in the DRC, most of the communities living around them are living in three times more horrible conditions than the soldiers themselves. That is how … [Interjections.] Just listen, please, listen. That is how well our soldiers have been catered for. As a matter of fact, communities depend on our deployments where they are situated – even for water and medical supplies. To suggest that our soldiers are living in deplorable conditions has no foundation whatsoever. [Applause.]
I will not build a five-star hotel in the DRC. Members of the National Defence Force who go there must go there to serve the people. But that story that he has just given has no foundation whatsoever. It does not. [Applause.]
High vacancy rate in detective services
129. Mr M S Booi (ANC) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:
Whether, with reference to the Auditor-General’s report that a high
vacancy rate exists in the detective services, there are any plans in
place to address this issue in the (a) short term as well as (b) long
term; if not, why not; if so, what plans in each case?
N2296E
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Speaker, before responding to this question, I would like to seek your indulgence on a matter that requires your endorsement. It relates to two other questions, and I want to explain because we would have to get your endorsement on that.
What has happened is that there are two questions, Question 138 and Question 141, that have been asked by the hon members Ndlovu and Van Dyk. I have had discussions with those members and they have acceded to my request that the two questions stand down in the first instance, but secondly, that the answers they require are provided by way of a written answer.
The SPEAKER: Let’s continue. That issue has been settled between you and the members, as you have explained to us.
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you very much, Speaker.
The question, with respect to the detective services, is being handled in two ways. The first one is short term, where we have reviewed our employee resource establishment plan to therefore accommodate a process where every time we do recruitment, 30% of those so recruited will go into the detective services. What we are going to do achieve that is to give a bigger allocation to the detective services next year to ensure that, indeed, we enlarge that division in the police.
The second one is, of course, long term and in this regard we are going to be expanding our human resources in the police on an annual basis. As those numbers swell, we are going to ensure that the detective services also become larger than they are at the moment. That is how we are going to deal with the matter of our detective services. Thank you.
Mr M S BOOI: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, thank you for the answer. Minister, there is a growing trend in the Public Service or within the detective services that whenever we train them, they go to the private sector. They get recruited and get better salaries. So, we want to know from you, Minister, do you have a retention plan for them so that whenever you’ve trained them, and whenever they are ready to continue serving the country, you will be able to continue retaining them for what you’ve trained them? Do you have such potential or policy?
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Speaker, it is true that across our Public Service, including within the SA Police Service, there is a lot of recruitment by the private sector concerning very capable people, who are therefore part and parcel of this large Public Service. And, indeed, within the Police Service, there are a number of our detectives and other police members who get recruited as a consequence of this.
Indeed, this has to do with salaries and the pay packages they are offered within the private sector. But I do wish to say that there are many of our members who are patriotic, and who want to serve their country. Therefore we always have an appropriate number of detectives who remain in the service, in spite of the offers that they get. We don’t have a situation where that division collapses as a consequence of people who are recruited by other entities.
I am therefore certain that we will always have a good number of detectives who are going to work as such within the SA Police Service. The conditions of service in the police, generally, have improved greatly, and those people who work there are defying such risks as personal injury, and even death, to continue to serve within the SA Police Service.
Mr R JANKIELSOHN: Madam Speaker, Minister, the certainty of detection depends not only on an effective detective service, but also on forensic support in the form of forensic laboratories. There are similar shortages in the forensic laboratories as in the detective services. What is being done to deal with the critical shortages here, given the fact that they also supply services to other SADC countries? The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Well, I was responding to a question on detective services, not the broader work that is done in the police to include the forensic laboratories. But, nonetheless, let me say that, indeed, there are many people that we recruit into our forensic science laboratories who also get recruited by other entities. Even with respect to that, we have many people who have remained within the SA Police Service to do their work there. We continuously recruit and train people for those laboratories, and they continue to provide the support that they have been providing to the SA Police Service for many years now.
Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, I would just like to have more information regarding the following. Although we know that employment is swelling and people are coming in, it seems as if the detective service is the burdened one, because some of the detectives usually have a family feud and kill their wives and themselves owing to stress due to the job that they do; and some of them carry around about 150 dockets.
How long, really, are we going to work on these to make sure that the detectives end up with a maximum of 50 dockets each? It takes a long time for a case to go to court if the detectives are going to carry around more than 100 dockets.
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: As the numbers of members of our detective services continue to grow, the dockets that they handle are going to grow smaller and smaller. Thus, by increasing our human resource component of our detective services we will reduce the burden that they have at present, relating to the many dockets that they carry.
Mr S N SWART: Madam Speaker, on 7 October, hon Minister, you responded in detail to my question relating to improving the 23% detection rate of perpetrators. Whilst the steps taken to improve the detection rate, as set out in your reply, are impressive, clearly, the high case load per detective remains a concern.
The attorney-general’s report also highlighted deficiencies in the case docket and case administration system, which clearly affect the detective services. It mentioned, for example, one province where the status of 18 000 dockets remained unchanged for more than five months.
Whilst we in the ACDP are very appreciative of the exceptionally good work that the detective services provide, notwithstanding severe capacity and personnel constraints, clearly ineffective monitoring and control of dockets negatively impacts upon the detective services. What, hon Minister, is being done to address these concerns again raised in the attorney- general’s report?
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Speaker, let me explain that, at times, the dockets that detectives carry are not always live dockets. In other words, they are not dockets that are being investigated because there is a case they are investigating at that time. Let me tell you what happens: Firstly, there are dockets that we have of people who are, for instance, already in our Correctional Services detention centres, not as a consequence of the investigations that are going on, but on the bases of other crimes that they have committed.
There are dockets that we still hold of people, as we investigate the matters, who die for one reason or another. And what is not happening, and where the attorney-general is correct, is the fact that our case management, as it relates to those dockets, is not good enough as yet to pick up those anomalies. Therefore these are some of the matters that we are addressing to ensure that we reduce this unnecessary load.
These are some of the matters that we are addressing to ensure that we reduce this unnecessary load on the detectives, which, at times, is a consequence of what I’ve indicated. Thank you.
Theft of bags and luggage at international airports
-
Rev K R J Meshoe (ACDP) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:
(1) Whether theft of bags, luggage or items from passengers’ bags is still a major problem at any of our international airports; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, (a) which airport had the (i) highest and (ii) lowest number of reported cases of theft for the past five years for which information is available and (b) how many (i) arrests have been made so far in this regard and (ii) convictions resulted from such arrests;
(2) whether the SA Police Service is taking any steps to stop the theft of bags and luggage at our international airports; if not, why not; if so, what steps? N2288E
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Yes, hon K R J Meshoe … Where is he? OK. And where is your green? [Interjections] No, I mean colour. He has gold and black; where is the green?
The answer is yes, the theft of bags and luggage items continues to occur, and the airport where this mostly occurs is the Johannesburg International Airport. Where there is a lower incident of this type of crime is in the Pilanesberg International Airport.
Now, I am unable to provide you with details regarding the other part of your question, because our systems do not isolate theft of the luggage. In other words, we say theft with respect to property and we do not say “this is luggage”. And therefore, I don’t have details that relate to what you asked for.
Part (b) of your question relates to how many arrests have been made with respect to luggage. When we arrest them, we say that this is theft; it is robbery. And it is in court when we say it is a consequence of this or the other thing. Our system does not carry that and we lifted this from our system. But the other matters are as I have indicated.
The answer to the second part of the question on whether any steps are taken to stop this is that, yes, among others, we are doing the following. There are general crime prevention activities which include, for instance, closed circuit televisions, monitoring and patrol duties; crime intelligence activities that include observation, information gathering and infiltration of some of these crime syndicates; regular crime-combating operations, in other words surveillance, tracking down of wanted suspects, and sting operations. And finally, in co-operation with the Airports Company of South Africa and the airline contracted security, we monitor the movement of luggage from check-in points until it is placed on board the relevant aircraft. I thank you.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Travellers are concerned that the growing trend of luggage theft at our airports, particularly Johannesburg International Airport, will tarnish South Africa’s image in the eyes of potential tourists. There are some at the Johannesburg International Airport who say the 1 200 security cameras the Airport Company of South Africa has around the airport all appear to be operated by one individual. I would like to find out if the Minister is aware of that and whether it is true.
There are others who also say the cameras are purely cosmetic in terms of security, and are fixed on one spot, unlike the cameras in Johannesburg central business district that are manned by a team of operators. Would the Minister tell us why the airport does not have sufficient staff to operate the security cameras, as it is being alleged, in order to help the police with the investigation of thefts at the airport, because we believe that only when there are sufficient convictions resulting from speedy arrests will the theft of bags and luggage . . . [Time expired.]
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Unfortunately, I don’t have that information, particularly because it is not the police that supply those closed circuit televisions; it is the Airports Company of South Africa itself. So I don’t know why there are these weaknesses you have referred to.
What I am going to do is . . . I am sure an arrangement will be made, even if I drop you a letter, to indicate what the reality of the situation there is. In other words, it will be regarding the number of the cameras they have and the personnel that have been deployed for purposes of monitoring this. I will supply that in a letter to you. Unfortunately, I don’t have the information you are seeking. I thank you.
Mr R J KING: Agb Voorsitter, Minister, die effek van die berugte eerste- ondervinding-verleentheid van die toeris wie se bagasie intransito gesteel word, is bekend by ons en is, gesien saam met die negatiewe beeld wat ons misdaadvlakke veroorsaak, slegte nuus vir ons toerismebedryf in die algemeen. Wat dan is die probleem in kommunikasie tussen die polisie en die lughawemaatskappye, wat so geneig is om deurlopend die vinger na mekaar te wys, dat dié situasie nie opgelos kan word nie, en hoe beplan u om dit te hanteer? Baie dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mr R J KING: Hon Chairperson, Minister, the effect of the notorious initial-experience embarrassment of the tourist whose baggage was stolen in transit is known to us and, in conjunction with the negative image caused by our crime levels, is bad news for our tourist industry in general. What is the problem in communication between the police and the airports company, who continually tend to point a finger at one another, with the result that this situation cannot be resolved, and how do you intend to address it? Thank you very much.]
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: There ought not to be any problem, but you will know that as people work, particularly structures that have been deployed in the same plane, now and again they will collide into one another in terms of the work that they must do.
What happens there is that the police are responsible for the outer perimeter, so to speak, in terms of security at the airport, and the rest of the security assignment is by ACSA who deal directly with inside security there.
But it does not mean that we ought not to be talking, as you say, because it is through consultation that in the end we will be able to be on top of this particular problem. But, again, as the case was with the hon Meshoe, I am going to get more information regarding this, which I will make available to you. I thank you.
Mr F T MASERUMULE: Hon Chair, I think hon Meshoe should have been warned that he is expected to behave like a taxidriver and go where everybody goes, otherwise he is going to be late in heaven. [Laughter.]
Comrade Minister, the question here is that the theft of the luggage also involves theft while the passenger is in possession of their luggage, either while they are waiting to book in or as they arrive and leave the terminal.
In this instance, can the Minister please indicate whether the SA Police Service and the Airports Company of South Africa, ACSA, are looking at this type of theft, and what the responsibilities of SAPS and ACSA are in this regard, that is, the relationship that exists? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Yes, one of the things that we have decided needed to happen – and quite clearly, it is not happening – is to provide some form of education for people who use these airports, because the problems that people experience do not just start and end with the luggage within the airport building.
There are people who are lingering around the airports. And these people will go to the taxi as it arrives, and will offer services to people who are going to the airport. It is, at times, at that point where people are mugged. They steal their luggage and they do other very silly things. And, at times, it is when people have already alighted from the aircraft and are leaving the airport building that these people will come and offer assistance, saying: “We will take you to a taxi” or “We will take you to a bus”, and people are mugged during that process.
We have been telling people that you must be very careful with respect to this. The problem we have about those people who linger around there is that many of them are people who used to work at the airport and who have been retrenched. An arrangement was then made that those people can continue to work around the airport in order for them to make money, just to derive some income. And you don’t know, therefore, who among those people are genuinely there and so on.
We have said that we must continuously have this education session in order for our people to understand the risks that they enter when there are these difficulties. Among other things, we have said that it is always better to go to people who are in uniform - the police, the security guards who are there and those who obviously will have proper identification as members working for ACSA and ask for information from them and for their assistance. This is not happening, as we would want it to. But, as I say, it has to do with our ability to communicate all the time with people. I thank you.
Mrs P DE LILLE: Minister, I want to thank you for your answer. My problem is just that ACSA do not want to take responsibility. I have been a victim myself. I locked my case, with the camera inside. When I opened it at night in the hotel, the camera was missing. How they opened the lock and closed it again, I don’t know. If you report to ACSA, they say: “Sorry, there is nothing we can do about it. We are only prepared to give you confirmation that you were on that flight.”
So, ACSA does not want to take responsibility, and now they are shifting it to the police. And I really appreciate your intention to talk to ACSA and bring them closer to the police to work together. But, you know, somebody must take responsibility for the theft out of luggage. The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: The Minister of Transport has submitted a very exhaustive proposal on how we are going to reorganise the airport and that proposal is now serving before Cabinet. I am sure that if we stick to the stipulations that are embodied there, we are going to travel quite some distance in addressing problems like the one you have referred to. In other words, I will keep on as I am doing, interfacing with the Minister of Transport on this matter. I thank you.
Decrease in number of prisoners, and the effect of this on overcrowding
-
Ms W Ngwenya (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:
(1) Whether a decrease in the number of prisoners has been achieved; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
(2) whether conditions regarding overcrowding has now improved; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N2292E
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, I assume that the hon member asked this question against the backdrop of the very successful special remission of sentences that was awarded recently. Although the special remission of sentences was not granted to alleviate overcrowding in correctional centres, 31 865 sentenced offenders were released from correctional centres during the period in question. This has significantly brought down our offender population. As at 31 July 2005, our population of offenders stood at 155 662.
I’m also happy to report that, as a result of a number of initiatives by the Department of Correctional Services, in conjunction with the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development as well as other stakeholders within the criminal justice system, on 10 August 2005 the average number of awaiting-trial detainees had decreased from 48 062 to 46 020.
Judging from the statistics above, there is a noticeable improvement regarding the levels of overcrowding in our correctional centres. It will be remembered that before the special remission of sentences, the offender population in our country stood at 188 000, and 55 000 of these were awaiting-trial detainees.
I am happy to say that the justice, correctional services, peace and security cluster system is beginning to work in a co-ordinated manner in the provinces and regions. I am also happy to say that, with the interventions that are being made by the various committees, including the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services, all role-players are beginning to make use of alternative methods of diversion away from correctional centres. I thank you.
Nk W NGWENYA: Somlomo, okokuqala, ngithanda ukubonga ukuthi ngithole leli thuba lokuma phakathi kweNdlu yesishayamthetho okokuqala empilweni yami. [Ihlombe.]
Siyabonga Ngqongqoshe ngempendulo ecace ngokwanele, futhi impendulo yakho inika ithemba lokuthi impi esibhekene nayo yamajele aphuphumayo sizoyinqoba.
Umbuzo wami olandelayo, Ngqongqoshe, uthi: Kunalabo ababoshiwe abasalinde ukugwetshwa abanamabheyili asukela ku-R1 000 kuya phansi. Sebehleli isikhathi eside kanti sebethi abafike enanini elingu-11 000 sebebonke emajele ethu. UNgqongqoshe angake achaze ukuthi banalo yini isu lokubona ukuthi isigaba 62(f) se-Criminal Procedure Act 51 ka-1977 siyenziwa ngokubonakalayo emajele? Sikholwa ukuthi baningi abayiziboshwa abangaphuma nabangagwetshwa uma lesi sigaba singasetshenziswa ngendlela enemiphumela kuwo wonke amajele ethu. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)
[Miss W NGWENYA: Speaker, firstly I would like to thank you for the opportunity to be in the National Assembly for the first time in my life. [Applause.]
Thank you, Minister, for your accurate response. Your response also gives us hope that we are going to solve the problem of overcrowded jails.
My question, Minister, concerns those offenders who are awaiting trail and those who have bail of R1 000 or less. They have been waiting for a long time and there are 11 000 of them in total in prisons. Does the Minister have any plans to see to it that section 62(f) of the Criminal Procedure Act of 1977 is implemented? We believe that hundreds of prisoners could be released or sentenced if this section could be implemented accordingly in all prisons. Thank you.]
UMPHATHISWA WEENKONZO ZOLULEKO: Mandibulele kuQabane, udade wethu, ndivuyisane naye ngokuthi abe uma okokuqala apha kwiNdlu yoWiso-mthetho, nangokuba elilungu lekomiti yemicimbi yesebe. Ndiyavuyisana nawe ngoko.
Umcimbi wokuxinana kwamabanjwa ejele ngomnye wemicimbi esiyiphethe kakhulu apha kwiSebe lezoLuleko. Asikho sodwa ekusebenzeni lo mcimbi, isebe loMphathiswa uMabandla lezoBugcisa noPhuhliso loMgaqo-siseko, iSebe lezoKhuselo noKhuseleko kwakunye nelezoPhuhliso loLuntu lincedisana kunye nathi ukuze abo bantu bangekagwetywa, abasalinde ukuxoxwa kwamatyala abo, axoxwe ngokukhawuleza amatyala abo.
Sisebenzisa kanye eli candelo loMthetho ulibizileyo, dad’ ethu, icandelo 62(f) le-Criminal Procedures Act, sincediswa ngabaphathi bazo zonke iitolongo zethu, sizama ukuba bonke abo bathi banikwe ibheyile engaphantsi kwe-R1 000 baphume.
Enye yeendawo osebenze kakuhle kuzo lo Mthetho - ndiyabona noSekela- Mphathiswa uDe Lange undijongile phaya ngoba uyakwazi oko – kuseBhayi, apho sinenkqubo entle kakhulu esebenza ngamabanjwa asalinde ukuxoxwa kwamatyala awo.
Kwaye kule veki iphelileyo sithathe isigqibo singala masebe, sokuba siza kundwendwela kuzo zonke ezi ngingqi zineetolongo ezinamabanjwa amaninzi asalinde ukuxoxwa kwamatyala awo. Siza kungena kwitolongo nganye, sibize noomantyi. Bendidibene ne-Law Society izolo, efuna ukusincedisa ngamagqwetha ukuze aba bantu sibakhuphele ngaphandle, bangahlali ezitolongweni. Amapolisa ayasincedisa ukuze kungabikho kubambezeleka ekwenzeni uphando, kwaye kungabikho zithintelo ekuthini abantu bagoduke. Sizimisele ke, dad’ ethu, ukuba yonke le nto yenzeke ngokukhawuleza. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)
[The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Let me express my gratitude to the comrade, our sister; let me join with her in celebrating her appearance for the first time before the National Assembly, as well as the fact that she is a member of the committee that deals with issues of the department. I am therefore celebrating with you. The fact of overpopulation of prisoners in jail is one of the issues being addressed by the Department of Correctional Services. We are not alone in addressing this fact. The department of Minister Mabandla, namely that of Justice and Constitutional Development, is working hand in hand with us so that those people who have not yet been sentenced, who are still awaiting the hearing of their cases, may expect the speedy hearing of their cases.
We apply the section of law that you have quoted, my sister, section 62(f) of the Criminal Procedure Act; we are being assisted by all those in charge of our prisons, and we are striving to ensure that all those who happen to be granted bail below R1 000 are released.
One of the places in which this law has been properly applied - and I can see Deputy Minister De Lange looking at me because he also knows this - is at Port Elizabeth, where we have a proper working system concerning prisoners who are awaiting trial.
Also last week we took a decision regarding these departments, namely that we would visit all these sections with prisons having many prisoners awaiting trial of their cases. We are going to visit each and every prison, and we are also going to invite a magistrate. Yesterday I met with the Law Society, which wants to assist us with lawyers so that these prisoners should not remain in custody. The police are assisting us so that there should be no delays in conducting investigations, and so as to avoid anything preventing people from being released to go home. We are therefore committed, my sister, to having all of this applied with immediate effect.]
Mr J SELFE: Chair, the Minister is aware that we are opposed to the wholesale release of prisoners by means of special remission of sentences largely because of the message that this sends out to the victims of crime. At the same time, we know that the prisons are grossly overcrowded. For this reason, it is very disturbing to hear that the programme of the construction of the four new-generation prisons has run into difficulties.
Can the Minister tell us what steps he has taken to ensure that the building programme of those prisons gets on track? Moreover, can the Minister tell us what steps, precisely, he is taking to ensure that diversion and alternative sentencing are applied to first-time offenders accused of petty and victimless crimes as part of the strategy to reduce prison overcrowding?
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Well, Chair, regarding the comment that the member has made that they have opposed the remission of sentences from the beginning, that really looks like them, exactly. So I have no problem with that. Anything that is not opposed by them, surely, must have a question mark against it, because they are opposers and they will be for the rest of their lives.
Regarding the issue of new-generation prisons, I was worried when I heard the hon Gibson’s name because I was going to ask: “What the hell does he know about prisons?” [Laughter.] The issue of the building of new- generation prisons, I think, is a question on its own. I wouldn’t even want to go into it because it is a new question altogether.
Concerning the issue of diversion and alternative sentencing, the hon member James Selfe knows very well that we are at the end of the conveyor belt, as Correctional Services. Therefore that is why it is so important to work with the magistracy, the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, the police and Social Development, particularly regarding children who are in trouble with the law. It is important to use all kinds of methods to convince all of us that the best way is to divert people, particularly first-time offenders and children who are in trouble with the law.
The hon member knows very well. Time and again, I report progress with the portfolio committee on where we are. Emanating from the visits of the portfolio committee, the committee has already come out with their report concerning some of the resolutions that we can take to attend to these issues. So grandstanding about it here is not going to help because it is not helping the situation. You visited some of the prisons. At least you are much better than some people who just get up and speak about Correctional Services when they have never entered a correctional centre in their lives. At least, I give you credit for that. Thank you.
Mr S N SWART: Chair, hon Minister, we particularly welcome the reference to diversion and restorative justice principles. We would again implore you to speak to your colleague, the hon Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development, as to when the Child Justice Bill will be brought to conclusion. The Bill obviously enshrines the rights of restorative justice and diversion.
I wanted to ask about section 62(f) concerning awaiting-trial prisoners, but you have already dealt with that. Regarding section 63(a), which you would recall allows the magistrate to review bail and which has been helpful in dealing with prisoners awaiting trial who do not present a danger to society, may I ask you: To what degree is that section which has been very useful in the past in reducing awaiting-trial prisoner figures also being used?
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon member, the Department of Social Development, about a week ago, in conjunction with the Department of Labour and Umsobomvu Youth Fund, have trained a number of young unemployed people to be assistant probationers who can deal with children in trouble with the law. I do appreciate that because the correctional centres that I have do not cater for children who are under 18 years of age.
One of the things that we are doing within this cluster is to convince the magistrates that the best way of dealing with those children is to divert them away from there. When I was in Umtata there was a group of eight 13 and 14 year-old girls who were involved in some programme. All of them had been diverted and were in trouble with the law.
We appreciate that type of thing because when you see some of these children in prison your heart goes out to them. You feel like opening the doors and allowing them to go home, but know deep down that you don’t want to undermine the criminal justice system of our country. So the issue of diversion is uppermost in our minds.
The issue of restorative justice is going on within our prisons. Before we do anything, even with these special remissions, we really work very hard in making sure that victims of some of those people who will be released get to know what is going on and get to talk about it so that they can find it in their hearts to forgive them, and to make them understand that they have made mistakes and need to be given a second chance. We have programmes on restorative justice within our correctional centres.
Regarding the issue of 63(a), we do use it very much. We do take a number of offenders back to the courts. We don’t even take them there physically, we just list their offences, sentences or bail conditions. Each and every head of a correctional centre or prison in this country knows that they have to use that every week to plead with the magistrates to make sure that this particular section of the law is used properly so that no more people who are not a threat to society are kept with our correctional centres. So we are busy doing that as well. Thank you very much.
Mr V B NDLOVU: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. Mhlonishwa bengicela ukubuza. Umhlonishwa ngizwe kancane ephendula umfowethu umhlonishwa uSwart ngendaba yezingane. Bengicela ukubuza kumhlonishwa ukuthi kuzothatha isikhathi esingakanani ukuthi izingane zehlukaniswe nabantu abadala? Ngisho emajele, mhlonishwa, ukuze izingane zingahlali nezigelekeqe nazo ziphume seziyizigelekeqe. Okokuqala lokho.
Okwesibili, ngicela ukubuza ukuthi umhlonishwa uyadlelana yini noma bayasebenzelana yini noMnyango ophethwe umhlonishwa uSkweyiya? Ngisho ngoba bekungaba ngcono ukuba mhlawumbe uMnyango kamhlonishwa uSkweyiya kube yiwo owakha izindawo eziningi zokuthi izingane lezi zikwazi ukuhlala, zigcinwe abasebenzi bezenhlalakahle ngaso sonke isikhathi. Ngicela umhlonishwa angisize nje lapho bese engitshela-ke ukuthi lokhu engikubuzayo kungase kuthathe isikhathi esingakanani ukuthi kwenzeke, uma kungenzeka. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you, Chairperson. I heard the hon Minister responding to my colleague, hon Swart, concerning juveniles. I would like to know how long it is going to take to separate young people from old people. I am talking about prisons, hon Minister, so that youngsters won’t stay with gangsters and come out as gangsters themselves. That is the first thing.
Secondly, I would like to know whether the hon Minister is working hand in hand with the department of hon Skweyiya. I am saying that because it would be better if the department of hon Skweyiya could be in charge of building places where youngsters would be accommodated and looked after by social workers. I would like the hon Minister to answer my questions and tell me how long it is going to take for that to happen.]
UMPHATHISWA WEENKONZO ZOLULEKO: Sihlalo, manditsho kuBaw’ uNdlovu ukuba kunzima ukwazi ukuba oku kuya kuthatha ixesha elingakanani na. Kambe siliqela lamasebe ahlanganiswe ngokohlobo lomsebenzi awenzayo siyasebenzisana ukuqinisekisa ukuba akubikho bantwana badityaniswa nemigulukudu. Naxa sele bebanjiwe, siyayigxininisa into yokuba mabangadityaniswa nabophuli-mthetho abangooncanyelweni, babe kwicandelo labo bodwa. Nangona ndingabafuni nje ezitolongweni zam, ngelinye ixesha abanye baba bantwana baye benze izenzo zobugebenga ezixhomisa amehlo. Kambe abo sele begwetyiwe siye singabadibanisi kunye nooncanyelweni. Siye sibakhuphele ecaleni. Isebe likabawo uZola Sikweyiya, ngakumbi uSekela-Mphathiswa uJean Benjamin, lisebenzisana kakhulu kunye nathi ukufumana iindawo zokhuseleko, apho aba bantwana baza kutshintshelwa khona, bahlale khona bejongiwe bade babe baphumile ezitolongweni.
Kambe tat’uVelaphi akukho nto ibaluleke, njengosapho. Usapho lubaluleke kakhulu. Aba bantwana kufuneka sibabuyisele kubazali babo ukwenzela ukuba balulekwe ziintsapho abasuka kuzo kuqala, hayi sithi. Thina siza emva apha ekubalulekeni. Ngelinye ixesha ufumana iintsapho ezithi sakuzitsalela umnxeba sisithi: “Umntwana wenu ulapha, uza kugwetywa, ngoko ke mthatheni abe kuni ukuze amane esiya nje enkundleni yamatyala.” Uve olo sapho lusithi: “Ngconde, mgcine apho, asimfuni.” Ndinge ndingafumana imvubu, ndiyiqabelise apha emqolo ndibethe umzali otshoyo, ngoba undinika nje uxanduva endingaludingiyo. Ndidinga abantu abagwetyiweyo kuphela.
Nangona kunjalo, sileli qela lamasebe siyasebenzisana ukuzama ukunqanda ukuba abantwana bangezi ezitolongweni, iintsapho zabo zibagcine, sifumane la magosa angabancedisi bamakhankatha amabanjwa akhutshwe ngengqawule bendithetha ngawo ukuze abajonge, abaluleke de lidlule ixesha lokubekwa kwabo phantsi kweliso lala magosa.
Ndiyacela ke kubazali ukuba xa bebanjwe bebancinci, iintsapho zabo zincedisane nathi ekubalulekeni. Umntu makangathi kuNgconde: ”Mgcine apho, Ngconde, nam ndiyamoyika.” Ngowakho. Kutheni umnikezela kum nje ngoku? Mjonge nawe, mzali, umluleke, sikuncedise ke nathi. Enkosi. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)
[The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, please allow me to tell hon Ndlovu that it is difficult to estimate the time that this would take. However, as the cluster, we are trying to ensure that juveniles are separated from criminals. When they are arrested, we emphasise that they should be placed in a separate section far away from hardcore criminals. Even though I may not want them in my prisons, some need to be incarcerated because of various serious crimes they commit. The ones who are sentenced are not housed together with adult prisoners. We separate them.
The Deputy Minister, hon Jean Benjamin in Mr Zola Skweyiya’s department, in particular, is giving us much support to ensure secure places of detention to which child offenders can be relocated until they are released from incarceration.
I would, however, like to emphasise the importance of a family, hon Velaphi Ndlovu. The parents of these children should take the responsibility for teaching them good behaviour and discipline, and not us. We come last. Sometimes families are called and notified about their children who have been arrested and are about to be sentenced, and they are requested to come and bail them out. The parents say: “Ngconde, keep him inside there. We do not want him.” In those instances I would wish to whip those people because they are putting added responsibility on me, which I do not need. I only deal with sentenced offenders.
Notwithstanding that, we work together very well as this cluster in trying to ensure that families take responsibility and look after their children, and we are committed to employing enough probation officers to monitor them until they have served their juvenile probation period under supervision.
I would like to appeal to parents of juveniles to assist us in the attempts to correct their behaviour. They should not say to me: “Keep him inside, Ngconde, we are scared of him.” They are your children. Why do you want to give them over to me now? Look after them as their parents. Teach them the right things and we will assist you. Thank you.]
Infighting and other factors pertaining to the security of the country
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Dr S E M Pheko (PAC) asked the Minister for Intelligence:
(1) To what extent the security of our country has been compromised following the infighting in the ruling party and the power struggle between the SA Police Service and the Scorpions;
(2) whether the telephones of citizens are bugged in South Africa; if so, under what circumstances; if not,
(3) whether citizens may sue his Ministry if they find that their phones have been bugged; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N2308E
The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Chairperson, as stated in the earlier question, this country’s democracy is stable and there is nothing that threatens or undermines the security of our state. Whatever differences may or may not exist between individuals of the ANC points only to one thing: that the ANC is a vibrant political party whose members have the freedom to debate and engage openly with each other on different issues, and to disagree, at times, which is quite natural and, in fact, healthy.
Regarding the question asked by the hon member whether or not the so-called power struggle between the Scorpions and SA Police Service threatens national security, I am not aware of the existence of any power struggle between the SA Police Service and the Scorpions. The issue of the location of the Directorate of Special Operations is the subject of the commission chaired by a judge. The fact that different parties to the commission hold different views on where the capacity of the Directorate of Special Operations should be located certainly does not amount to the existence of a power struggle. The gentleman on that bench should go back to a political school and understand what power struggles are.
The response to the second part of the question regarding the interception of communications, including telephone conversations in this democracy is that – hon Gibson, you were asking me earlier on – this is governed by the Regulation of Interception of Communications Act of 2002. Before any security agency is able to intercept any telephone call or communication of any kind, a learned judge, designated in terms of the legislation for that purpose, must issue an order authorising this action. The Office of Interception Centre, provided for in terms of the Act, is responsible for implementing all such orders on request. In order for a judge to grant the application, the agency requesting it needs to provide an affidavit which gives the basis on which the application is sought. That is the regulation.
Are you listening in on your telephones? Please pay attention. With regard to the third part of the question, the hon member has asked whether or not members of the public can sue the Ministry if they discover that their telephones are being bugged, as he puts it. I think it is important to point out that citizens will have recourse only if any action by the government intelligence services, or security organs, is unlawful. Obviously, if the necessary authorisation has been obtained, citizens would not be in a position to pursue any action against the Minister or service concerned. But I have said publicly that I will attend to any public complaints that are formally received.
I would like to emphasise that such complaints should not clog the phone the line, but individuals should properly identify themselves and those complaints should be formally submitted in writing. And any such complaint received will be dealt with and, where necessary, action will be taken to ensure that civilian agencies conduct themselves within the framework of the Constitution and the law. [Applause.]
Dr S E M PHEKO: Mr Minister, the security of our country is a concern for all patriots, regardless of their politics. Security is a national issue. I’m glad to hear the Minister’s assurance that the present open rumblings in the media are not affecting our national security. However, what steps has the Minister taken to ensure that this open warfare within these sensitive state apparatus does not recur? And what would the Minister say if he were to be told that some citizens in this country say their telephones have been bugged?
The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Chairperson, hon member, you talk about open warfare within the state apparatus whilst your question relates to what you call a power struggle between the police and the Scorpions. So, based on the logic of the question, I would think that you are referring to that. There is no open warfare, as I have pointed out. There are differences about the location of the Directorate of Special Operations, DSO. Clearly, there are those tensions.
If, on the other hand, you are referring to the suspensions within the National Intelligence Agency, there is no open warfare there. The Minister has taken certain steps against irregularities, which have been revealed through the inspector-general’s inquiry. But there is certainly no open warfare.
With regard to the question of what would I say to claims from the public about the bugging of telephones, I have answered that in my response to your question, hon member. But, let me repeat: We are a democracy, and we intend to put the past behind us – the terrible apartheid legacy where, certainly, Dr Pheko, I’m sure you were bugged and put under surveillance, amongst other things. Those were all irregularities.
There are many members in this House, on all sides, who were put under surveillance, who were bugged, who were imprisoned illegally and who were tortured. This terrible past we put behind us through the rule of law, through the Constitution, through ensuring that our security services operate in a professional way.
Where there are infringements, the public must know. All the Ministers from the security sector have made that clear. Bring it to the attention of these Ministers and provide us with whatever details you can. That is why I emphasise that you should do these in a regular formal manner, and we will do everything to check on that complaint. Indeed, that has happened on quite a number of occasions and we pledge ourselves to that. Our service is to our people. Our service is to our national interest. Thank you, Chairperson.
Dr S C CWELE: Chairperson, hon members, the civil liberties of all South Africans are protected by the Constitution. There is no willy-nilly bugging of every citizen in South Africa. There are laws, which we have passed to ensure that the services do not infringe on those rights. Even if we limit those rights, we have ensured, as a country, that the security agencies have to submit an application to a judge. It’s only a judge who can limit those liberties. Can the Minister indicate whether there has been any gross abuse of these provisions by the services in general?
The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Well, I didn’t hear the name “Frolick”. Maybe that’s a name from the past, hon Siyabonga Cwele. He certainly must have had his nom de guerre and his underground name. I think that the hon member has made it very clear how our civil liberties are safeguarded by our Constitution, by our laws, our Bill of Rights and by this government. And we have a darn good record in relation to this, hon members. Never before have our people been safeguarded in this way in the entire history of South Africa since the advent of our democracy.
Regarding abuses, in these past 10 and going on towards 11 years, I’d like to point out that there have been blessedly few. Where this has emerged recently with a certain member of the public who laid a complaint to me, it has been acted on. One doesn’t have the time to parade the record of present Ministers of Safety and Security and Correctional Services or those from the post-1994 period, including an hon member of the IFP sitting opposite me there. There have been those principles and that particular moral ethic.
To the hon Chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, one can declare that we cannot refer to many abuses. The hon member might have some which he could bring to the House’s attention but every year the inspector-general provides a report. And that report has been extremely positive in relation to the services, be they in the civilian services or in defence, intelligence or crime intelligence.
Adv P S SWART: Chairperson, Minister, of course, in terms of interception, we are talking about the illegal interceptions. It’s difficult, but we must understand the furore outside because of the media. The public seems to think at this stage that if it is so easy for a prominent person to come under surveillance, or interception, whatever the case may be, it is even easier for anybody else, hon Minister, and I think we must put this to bed you have sufficient intimate knowledge of your department that you can today give this House and the public at large the assurance that there are no other illegal operations in respect of anybody in this country, be it leaders of opposition parties, members of parties or other prominent South Africans?
The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Hon Chairperson, I think it would be a good idea to define “intimate”. There are various ways of looking at “intimate”. [Laughter.] And I wouldn’t like to get into the romantic aspects of the said department. In terms of what we could maybe call “Little Swart” and “Big Swart”, who were two Special Branch detectives in Durban in the old days, I would say to the hon member that you have said “it’s so easy for a prominent person to have been put under surveillance”, but it hasn’t been easy. If we look at the way this democracy was able to intercede, it clearly was not easy at all. It’s very difficult. It was very easy in the bad old days.
The hon member raised a question: Can I assure hon members here and the public that no such illegal operations may be repeated in future? I don’t think that is a very fair question at all. And he is pointing right now. I have acted, and we have inquiries under way. These are being carried out in an energetic and robust manner. It’s not possible to give guarantees except to say to this House, to all members on all sides and to the public, that this government is acting decisively and with full intention at all levels. That is the best guarantee that we can give, and we will not let up. The intention is to ensure that we build, as we must, a young democracy through 11 very short years, a Public Service and security services that have a high standard of professionalism.
We are dealing with human beings, we are dealing with members of such services. And nobody anywhere in the world, even the oldest democracies, as we have seen in recent years, can assure 100% of professionalism.
Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, Mr Minister, I want to assure you that when we talk about the total commitment of the government and ourselves regarding the security of the country, we are paramountly behind you. What I want to ask might be impossible for you to answer, but I would like to have your opinion on the matter. This division within political parties can cause division within the security forces, no matter to which organisations they belong, but if there are any divisions, those divisions are really going to compromise the security of the country. Do you think that there is any way of detecting that there are any divisions? If there are, is there any policy to deal with those divisions in order to ensure, as you have just said, that the country is safe? [Time expired.]
The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Thank you very much, hon Ndlovu. I am very gratified, and one would believe that the entire House is behind the security of this country. That is actually a very important point, because we do have to realise that when we are tested in this way, it is important that we all are together as one. It’s not a question of political party differences at all.
You have asked for my opinion and you made reference to divisions within political parties. Quite frankly, looking around he House from my left along the benches and along towards where the hon Gibson sits, there does seem to be differences in every single party. We read about them all the time - even in a party which has one person representing the party here in Parliament. [Laughter.] So, there is nothing unusual about the idea that there are differences in political parties, and it’s healthy. Good luck to all of you! Debate your differences in a civil way, the way we are doing in the ANC.
Regarding the reference that the member has made concerning the question of what happens when this affects the security services, the Public Service, whether it is in the Department of Health, whether it is the military, whether it is intelligence and so on - obviously when it is within the security intelligence community it is more serious than if you have some differences in Housing or Health – within the Public Service and security services in general, government does have to strive to create a new ethos, a new culture and a new attitude where we have professionals from the Department of Water Affairs to the Departments of Health, Defence, Intelligence and where our public and security intelligence officers and officials understand that they serve the Constitution, rule of law and the government of the day. How do we achieve that? They are still striving to do so in the so-called mature democracies. And we will follow that path as well. [Time expired.]
House arrest and occasional reporting as an option to alleviate
overcrowding prisons
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Ms S Rajbally (MF) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:
Whether house detention and occasional reporting are being considered as alternatives in order to alleviate the overcrowding in prisons; if not, why not; if so, what calibre of criminal offenders will be considered for such detention?
N2287E
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, Ronnie; intelligence and corrections go together. Chairperson, I thought he would answer for me.
In terms of section 52 of the Correctional Services Act, Act 111 of 1998, a court, correctional supervision and parole board, and the commissioner or other body which has the statutory authority to do so, may subject a person who is serving a sentence of correctional supervision or who has been placed on parole on condition of house detention and occasional reporting. In other words, house detention and reporting to a community corrections officer is not a sentence in terms of the Criminal Procedure Act of 1977 and is therefore not an option that can be used to combat overcrowding, hon Rajbally.
As stipulated in section 276(1)(h) of the Criminal Procedure Act of 1977, courts have an option of using alternative sentences that will direct offenders to serve their sentences under correctional supervision and not incarceration. Thank you.
Nk S RAJBALLY: Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe, imithwalo yakho inzima. Kodwa thwala ndoda, uzogcina ngokufinyelela endaweni yakho. [Chairperson, hon Minister, your task is very difficult. However, do persevere and you will succeed.]
Hon Minister, since you say that house detention will not alleviate overcrowding, could you enlighten us whether the offender would be allowed to work and earn a living if house detention is considered? Would you agree that offenders who go back to their families would be further rehabilitated? Thank you.
UMPHATHISWA WEENKONZO ZOLULEKO: Mama uRajbally, ndibulela kakhulu. Intlalo yam inzima mpela kodwa ngemithandazo yakho, iza kuba ngcono. Ndicela ukuba undithathe ndibe ngomnye woonyana bakho ukwenzela ukuba umana undithandazela qho. [Kwahlekwa.] [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Ms Rajbally, thank you very much. My life is very difficult, but through your prayers it is going to be better. I plead with you to take me as one of your sons so that you will keep on praying for me frequently.] [Laughter.] [Applause.]]
Indeed, in terms of house detention and not the old apartheid way of doing it, when parolees and probationers are allowed out of the correctional centres, community corrections would check on them at certain times. But one of the important things we want them to do is to get gainful employment. That is very important. Once they get gainful employment and are able to work, community corrections would then check the times at which they report for work and when they are at home.
I know that sometimes correctional officials go overboard. Because of the transport system in our country, some of our parolees and probationers do not get home in time for the correctional officials to see them and they then get taken back to prison. That is one practice I do not like. One of the things that I want to do is to overhaul the whole system of community corrections in order to be in tune with the focus and strategy of the department, and to ensure that if a person breaks a rule in terms of that house detention parole, one is not immediately dragged into prison without being given a second chance.
We say that the family is the best seat of rehabilitation. That is why I appeal to families time and again – I did that even yesterday – that when they visit a relative who is an offender they should try to work on that offender to change their ways. Hence we transfer them closer to their families so that families could deal with them in the same way in which we deal with them within prison. They must not deal with them in terms of bringing in illegal substances and firearms, but assist them so that they can become upright citizens of our country. Thank you very much.
Mr J SELFE: Chairperson, it is clear that community corrections is an extremely important mechanism to relieve overcrowding of prisons. If prisons are less crowded, there is a better chance of rehabilitating offenders.
Another way of improving rehabilitation is constructive work for inmates while they are actually incarcerated. I would like to know what steps the Minister is taking to ensure that all sentenced prisoners have the opportunity to work while they are in prison, thereby improving their chances of rehabilitation and reintegration? I ask this question to elicit information and not to grandstand. With the greatest respect, the hon Minister is the very last person to talk about grandstanding.
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Selfe, thank you very much.
An HON MEMBER: He is selfish.
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Don’t listen to him.
Community corrections are critical. A week ago I appointed a new chief deputy commissioner for corrections because I want community corrections to be overhauled. If the justice system, the magistracy of this country, believes that what we seek to do in community corrections is the correct thing, they will then be able to assist us in the diversion and alternative sentencing we are talking about. I fully agree with you that the best arm of Correctional Services should be community corrections. I fully agree with that.
Secondly, in prisons we have piggeries and agriculture. Correctional Services is a minigovernment on its own because we do all the things that Agriculture, Health, Education, Sport and Recreation and Foreign Affairs do. We do absolutely everything. It is important that there should be constructive work and that they do work.
I am sure that you saw me in Caledon the other day driving a tractor. I spend weekends either building with the prisoners or driving tractors with them because I would like to see them doing something. In George, for instance, a section of the prison has been built by the prisoners themselves.
Last Sunday, in Kalksteenfontein, we opened a church that had been built by community corrections parolees who came from Pollsmoor. That is a brand new church that they have been building for two years. We are doing everything to empower them with skills and education so that they don’t just sit there.
There is no prison that has no rehabilitation processes. Only those who are a threat to society and would want to run away are locked away and then we look after them. Those whom we feel are ready to go out are given all the assistance in the world in order to be able to go out. I am asking communities to accept them when they come back and to try and assist them as well.
Government support iro nuclear power
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Mr D J Sithole (ANC) asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs:
(1) Whether the Government supports the utilisation of nuclear power for peaceful purpose; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
(2) whether the Government supported both Iran and North Korea to continue their research in this regard and to use such development to advance their economic and developmental needs;
(3) whether the Government supports the selling of such technology to countries that have the capability but are refused by other powerful countries to increase their research and development; if not, why not; if so, what will happen to South Africa’s capabilities in this regard?
N2300E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Chairperson, South Africa supports the use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes as provided for in Article 5 of the Treaty on Nonproliferation of Nuclear Weapons.
Article 5 of the treaty states that:
Nothing in this treaty shall be interpreted as a factor in the inalienable right of all parties to the treaty to develop, research, the production and use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes without discrimination, and in conformity with articles 1 and 2 of this treaty.
South Africa supports the right of all countries to develop, research, produce and use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes, only and in conformity with the Treaty on Nonproliferation of Nuclear Weapons, NPT, particularly to further advance socioeconomic development. At the same time, South Africa consistently emphasises the importance of full adherence to all nuclear disarmament and nuclear nonproliferation obligations by the states party to the NPT.
Article 3 of the NPT requires all non-nuclear weapons states party to the treaty to accept comprehensive International Atomic Energy Agency, IAEA, safeguards in order to enable the agency to verify the nondiversion of nuclear energy from peaceful uses to nuclear weapons or any other nuclear explosive devices. South Africa has therefore called on the states not party to the NPT to join the treaty and place all facilities and materials under the comprehensive IAEA safeguards.
Likewise, South Africa continually emphasises the importance of all states co-operating closely with the IAEA to enable the agency to fulfil its statutory mandate and to provide the necessary assurances that that material is not diverted to nonpeaceful activities.
As a responsible country that possesses advanced technologies, South Africa supports the sale of such technologies only to countries in full compliance with the obligations of the NPT, and in accordance with the provisions of the Nonproliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction Act and the Nuclear Energy Act. South Africa will continue to act on the basis of principle and in full compliance with its international obligations.
Mr D J SITHOLE: Deputy Minister, based on what you have said and from the support that South Africa gives to states that have nuclear capability but use it for peaceful means, how then does South Africa understand the negotiations between North Korea, the European Community and Russia in that respect, given the fact that the EU insists that North Korea cannot possess the capability and use that capability for peaceful purpose, but they will be able to sell that capability at a market-related price to the North Koreans?
How then do you reconcile the very same element with the question of disarmament that we have been putting in the NPT – that all other countries that possess nuclear weapons should disarm? How do you reconcile the peaceful use and the fact that there is a potential that the states that possess that capability could develop that capability to armaments?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: There is a committee of six countries that is dealing with the non-nuclearisation of the Korean peninsula. I want to believe that on our last visit during our meetings with the Chinese, the South Koreans and the North Koreans, and in our consultations with the Americans and the Russians and Japanese, major advances were made. There are still problems, but major advances were made to deal with the non-nuclearisation of the North Korean peninsula.
I believe that there has been an advance in the way the big powers have been negotiating on this issue. I believe it’s in the interest of the North Koreans to begin to understand the advances that have been made during the last meeting. In the next round of negotiations we hope that the major players will be more creative in finding a solution to the nuclear weapons programme of North Korea.
On the growth policies of the nonproliferation treaty, we have consistently argued that we will fight for a world free of nuclear weapons, and we will continue to argue that all countries that have nuclear weapons should get rid of the nuclear weapons so that the danger of the use of nuclear weapons is terminated for all time.
My own belief is that we would have to use South Africa’s experience in programme for the elimination of nuclear weapons to help influence other countries that are not yet nuclear powers to begin to move in the direction that South Africa moved, because we are totally committed to a world without nuclear weapons.
Mr D H M GIBSON: Chairperson, most sensible countries want to see a settlement of the 60-year old Middle East problems, and most have committed themselves to a secure Palestine and a secure Israel.
Palestine’s best chance of success lies in a negotiated settlement. Iran stands out as having called for Israel to be wiped off the map. This attracted adverse comments about Iran from many parts of the world, with great suspicion and indeed trepidation about Iran’s nuclear ambitions.
I’d like to ask the hon Deputy Minister whether the South African government has made it clear to the Iranian government that friendship with South Africa carries a price tag? The price must surely be good government, sane and sensible policies and a commitment to working for peace and for democracy?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Once again, the opposition is exploiting this opportunity with something that has nothing to do with the question. We were talking about nuclear programmes and the NPT.
However, let me help educate him, because I think he needs some education. [Interjections.] The reality of the matter is that you cannot just say that what will help the Palestinians is a negotiated solution, without even interpreting who is preventing a negotiated solution in Palestine, between the Palestinians and the Israelis. So, there is a different question.
I am going to Iran tomorrow, and we will discuss with the Iranians the statement that their president has made to express our concerns that such statements do not help the Palestinian cause, and does not help create an environment where we can bring peace and stability to the whole region. So, on my trip tomorrow, one of the objectives will be to raise the statement and seek clarification on what their overall policies are. [Interjections.]
Dr R RABINOWITZ: Madam Chairperson and hon Deputy Minister, I am also one of those who need to be educated. I would like to ask you to tell us what the government’s official policy on Iran’s nuclear energy programme is, because publicly the government supports it. And, if I may continue to ask, how easy is it for any government to detect the difference between a nuclear energy programme that is intended for peaceful purposes and one that is intended for aggression?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: As the hon member knows, the IAEA has tremendous safeguards in dealing with this issue, and we are totally committed to never accept dictates from bigger powers about the use of nuclear power for peaceful purposes.
Our position on the Iranian issue has been quite clear. We have been arguing quite systematically – including the need for Israel to get rid of its nuclear weapons so that the other countries cannot follow suit, using the Israeli nuclear weapons as a pretext. We have been involved with the European Union, the Iranians and the United States to try to see whether we can be more reasonable in the discussions that are going on, so that we prevent Iran moving to a production of nuclear weapons, and find a solution.
It is our belief that progress has been made in the Iranian response to the IAEA situation. We oppose the restarting of the Iranian programme in Ishran, and we have said that this is not the way to find a solution. However, we respect the Iranian right to use nuclear power for peaceful purposes. That we will never change our mind on, because otherwise we will all become hostages of agendas that are not in the interest of the countries of the South. [Applause.]
CONSIDERATION OF REPORTS OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS AND TOURISM - OVERSIGHT VISIT TO WALTER SISULU BOTANICAL GARDEN; OVERSIGHT VISIT TO UMTATA AND PORT ST JOHNS; ANNUAL REPORT OF PC ON ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS AND TOURISM; JOHANNESBURG +2 SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT CONFERENCE
The reports included both the work of the department itself, the SA National Biodiversity Institute, the Greater St Lucia Wetlands Authority, SA National Parks, SA Tourism and the SA Weather Services. The department and the statutory bodies have met all the commitments that they set themselves in this financial year. These include the drafting of a uniform national and provincial budget structure; the establishment of the National Environmental Advisory Forum; the finalisation of an environmental management co-operation agreement; the compilation of guidelines for an environmental impact assessment register and a database.
The department has completed the Thor Chemicals environmental impact assessment, the climate change response strategy, together with the development of draft asbestos regulations. A plan for the rehabilitation of fishing harbours has been finalised as well as the drafting of a new policy framework for great white shark cage-diving and boat-based whale-watching. There are also amendments to the 4X4 regulations and promulgation of two new marine protected areas.
This year saw major development with regard to the SA National Parks. The Giriyondo Border Post has been completed; a 28-berth rest camp was opened in March in Sendelingsdrift; the planned tourism infrastructure in Mapungubwe has been completed; all the Kruger National Park accommodation, as well as campsites in Addo and Storms River Mouth have been pregraded; an innovative public-private partnership between SA National Parks, the Department of Education and Pick ’n Pay has been established to encourage kids to visit parks; the SA Weather Service has overseen the deployment of the Umtata weather radar and the establishment of five automatic weather stations in the Eastern Cape; a weather data-capturing programme has been installed and there is general improvement in the longer-term weather forecasting ability, and an aviation display system is also in place.
SA Tourism continues to improve. We continue to record a high number of foreign tourism arrivals. There is growth in foreign tourism arrivals across the entire regional portfolio, except Europe, and we continue to do better than our competitors such as Australia. The Sho’t Left campaign has been an improvement as many South Africans tour their own country, including black South Africans.
To encourage tourism entrepreneurship amongst the historically disadvantaged, SA Tourism and Absa are promoting the Emerging Tourism Entrepreneur of the Year Award over the next three years. In the same vein, a comprehensive guide to graded products and an aggressive business tourism strategy and action plan have been developed. We have successfully gained the market share in France, even though we have lost our share of visitors from the Netherlands and Germany.
The SA National Biodiversity Institute’s landmarks include the transfer of key management posts, together with the opening of a new biodiversity centre in Pretoria. Visitor facilities at Lowveld, Walter Sisulu and Pretoria National Botanical Gardens have been opened. A public awareness programme, Greening the Nation, has been established, as well as one-stop biodiversity information systems. To deepen environmental practice and awareness, a garden-based environmental education programme, together with a municipal capacity programme have been undertaken in the Eastern Cape. The SA National Biodiversity Institute’s, Sanbi, has overseen the rehabilitation of 65 wetlands and created 1 789 jobs.
In the Greater St Lucia Wetland Park R17,9 million have been spent on park development and the implementation of an alien clearing plan. Three hundred and thirty-three jobs in tourism and related industries as well as seven agricultural gardens for sustainable livelihoods have been secured. To enhance the work of the park, a communication strategy with a focus on branding has been developed. Seven hundred units of warthog, oribi, giraffe, white and black rhino, buffalo and wild dogs have been translocated to the park.
Having considered the 2004 and 2005 annual reports and financial statements of the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism and its public entities, the portfolio committee recommends that during the 2006 parliamentary period the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism should come and brief members on the findings of the draft asbestos study report and approved regulation by the Cabinet, 2006 and 2007’s strategic plans and budget allocation, mechanisms to be put in place to ensure that broad-based BEE is implemented in all the tendering transactions of the department, and consolidation of work with regard to genetically modified organisms and mariculture.
Furthermore, the SA National Parks should come and brief members on the elephant management strategy, implementation of the transfrontier conservation programme and mechanisms that are put in place to ensure that the management of the park is in accordance with the Protected Areas Act. The Greater St Lucia Park should come and brief members on actions to be taken to ensure the promotion of broad-based black economic empowerment in the new tourism industry in the park, the status of all the existing poverty alleviation projects and their impact on poverty alleviation and sustainable job creation.
As the ANC, we support the annual reports and the financial statements of the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism and its associated statutory institutions. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr G R MORGAN: Good afternoon, Madam Chair and hon members. The Wild Coast is a unique place. It is part of a new biodiversity hotspot that has been internationally recognised by Conservation International as a site of world significance. However, it is also one of the poorest regions in South Africa. It faces massive development challenges, including the delivery of basic services infrastructure development and job creation. It was important therefore that the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism conduct an oversight visit to the region. It’s on that report that I will concentrate this afternoon. The chairperson has already outlined many of the recommendations stemming from the annual reports.
We need to look at the Wild Coast with three initiatives in mind: the proposed mining, the proposed toll road and the proposed national park. The DA welcomed the announcement by the Minister recently that a Pondoland national park would be declared. The exact details of the form this park will take are not clear, but what has emerged is that the area it will include is simply not substantial enough. We must remember that one of the criteria for this region, having been declared a hotspot, is that it has already lost at least 70% of its habitat. So one would think any initiative for a protected area would try to include as many sensitive areas as possible.
This park should logically stretch from the uMtavuma River to the uMtentu River. Of course, this does not have to be a fenced park in its entirety. It should have core wilderness areas with full protection and a number of mixed-use zones, and it is critical that people are not excluded from the land.
But the Minister’s declaration is disappointing. It includes the currently proclaimed Mkhambati Park and what is known as the Trecor lands, and it excludes the 22 km stretch of dunes that are set aside for proposed mining. Minister Van Schalkwyk is, I believe, involved in a considerable spin operation. On the one hand he says an area will be protected and on the other hand he implies an area will be degraded.
On my own visits to Pondoland I have frequently heard local officials and councillors saying that conservationists want to keep the local people in poverty. They say that development and job creation is the only thing that is important, even if it means condoned degradation of the environment. But of course, conservation and development are not mutually exclusive – they can and must go hand in hand.
I am glad that the committee took the time to meet with the executive mayor of the O R Tambo district municipality, Ms Zoleka Capa. She made the claim that she and her local colleagues are always being kept in the dark about development projects. This may be true to some extent and there is definitely a need for better co-operative governance in the Eastern Cape. However, can we take the views of the O R Tambo district municipality seriously when it includes five ANC-run municipalities that have been identified by Project Consolidate as councils that cannot even meet the most basic service delivery targets? There would be less incentive to see the natural environment as a resource that needed to be plundered in order to survive if people received the basic services they are entitled to.
Executive Mayor Capa seemed quite content to contradict herself during the committee visit. On the one hand she said that municipalities had been left behind with regard to the planning of the proposed toll road, while on the other hand she said that there had been sufficient public consultation on the toll road. But even our own Minister would not agree with the latter view. At a public meeting at Qaukeni in July 2004, the Minister acknowledged that there had not been enough consultation with local communities. So who are we to believe?
Is there something else to this story that has not yet emerged? Why was Capa so quick to defend the so-called consultation process when it was widely regarded as flawed? Is it because her municipality stands to benefit from subcontracts during the construction process? It has come to my attention that the O R Tambo district municipality recently bought R5 million’s worth of earth-moving equipment without issuing a proper tender process. What is this equipment going to be used for? Are they going to hire it out to subcontractors?
The portfolio committee received briefings on a number of successful ecotourism small businesses, including Amadiba Adventures and Mzamba Tours. There is scope for many more small businesses in the area, but government must provide the necessary regulatory environment and must guarantee the integrity of the natural environment that they rely on. And there must be safety for tourists. Just a few weeks ago a tour bus of foreign backpackers was attacked outside Port St Johns. Unfortunately, this has become a regular occurrence, and it will hurt the small rural businesses that rely on the tourist trade unless acts such as this come to an end.
In closing, I want to make a few comments on the environmental impact assessment, EIA, process regarding projects like the toll road and mining. Firstly, the toll road EIA must genuinely look at alternatives to the toll road. It is indeed important that roads are built in the Wild Coast area, but there is considerable scope for the upgrading of existing roads. Secondly, it is time that government gave thorough consideration to reforming the EIA process. The EIA process for both mining and the road have been introduced at such a late stage of project development, after millions of rands have already been invested, that there is immense pressure on government to approve the projects. It is time that the EIA itself is written for the relevant environment department and not for the developer.
I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms C N Z ZIKALALA: Hon Chairperson, during the month of August this year the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism conducted two oversight visits. From 10 to 12 August 2005 we visited Port St Johns, while on 16 August we visited the Walter Sisulu National Botanical Garden in Roodepoort, Johannesburg.
The main objective of the oversight visit to Umtata and Port St Johns was to monitor and assess the economic impact of a one-kilometre coastal zone that restricts development and viability of local government; to see the location of poverty alleviation projects and to interact with stakeholders in order to solicit input on barriers that inhibit the successful implementation of poverty alleviation and job creation.
A number of challenges and opportunities were identified that related to ecotourism development. It was, however, very unfortunate that the committee could not visit poverty alleviation projects in Port St Johns as planned.
The main purpose of the study tour to the Walter Sisulu National Botanical Garden was to examine management of the garden and nature conservation, and to receive input on progress made in respect of global warming and the Greening of the Nation project. Amongst other things, we held a meeting with the chief executive officer of the SA National Biodiversity Institute and received a briefing.
Unfortunately again, owing to time constraints, we did not get an opportunity to visit Pretoria National Botanical Garden, and we also did not get a briefing on climate change and the Greening of the Nation project.
In September 2004 members of the committee participated in the Johannesburg +2 Sustainable Development Conference, which was held in Gauteng. The objective of the conference was to assess the progress made by countries and governments in achieving the outcomes of the Johannesburg plan of action.
A wide variety of issues was discussed at the round table discussions. Many recommendations emerged from these discussions. The report also contains conclusions and recommendations of this delegation. [Time expired.]
Nkskz R A NDZANGA: Sihlalo, i-Witwatersrand National Botanical Garden ekufutshane neRoodepoort, ngaphandle kweJohannesburg, yatshintshwa igama yabizwa ngokuba yiWalter Sisulu National Botanical Garden, oko kusenziwa ngokwemimiselo yomthetho owaziwa njengeNational Biodiversity Act.
UXhamela, utata uSisulu, wayeyinkokeli yoqobo. Utat’ uSisulu wayeyinkokeli eziphethe kakuhle. Waqala ngokuba lilungu loMbutho woLutsha we-ANC, wakhula kwezopolitiko waza waba yinkokeli yombutho. Kwathi ngonyaka ka-1956 ngowesi- 5 kuDisemba, utata uSisulu nabanye, kubandakanywa utata uMlangeni noMama uBertha Gxowa, babanjelwa ukuvukela umbuso.
Utat’ uSisulu wazibonakalisa ubunkokeli ngexesha urhulumente wengcinezelo wayebamba abantu ababesemasimini ukuba baye kusebenza kumasimi eetapile nombona. Utat’ uSisulu nabanye baye bayibona into yokuba ootata babenyamalala ixesha elide, kungaziwa ukuba baphi na. Xa bebuya, babebuya belambile, befile yindlala, begula nokugula. Eso senzo sokuthinjwa kwabantu saye sayekwa ngenxa yeenkokeli ze-ANC. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Ms R A NDZANGA: Chairperson, the Witwatersrand National Botanical Garden near Roodeport, outside Johannesburg, has undergone a name change and is now called the Walter Sisulu National Botanical Garden; that was done in terms of the guidelines of the Biodiversity Act.
Father Sisulu, Xhamela, was a real leader. Father Sisulu was a leader with good conduct. He first became a member of the ANC Youth League. He grew up in politics and became a leader of this organisation. On 5 December 1956, Father Sisulu, together with Father Mlangeni and Mother Bertha Gxowa, was arrested for treason.
Father Sisulu displayed his leadership qualities during the period when the apartheid government arrested people, sending them to do hard labour on potato and maize farms. Father Sisulu and others realised that our fathers disappeared for a long time, without knowing their whereabouts. When they returned, they came back dying of hunger and suffering from diseases. The act of holding people hostage was stopped because of ANC leaders.]
The harassment did not end there. Tata was arrested again and charged together with other … [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member! Hon member! May I request you to return to the consideration of the reports.
Mrs R A NDZANGA: I beg your pardon?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Please concentrate on the reports and leave extraneous matters. Thank you.
Mrs R A NDZANGA: Well, I don’t know if it is wrong to tell the history of Ntate Sisulu, because it is true.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, I’m not disputing the truthfulness of what you are saying; I’m just asking you to please keep to the subject under discussion. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Mrs R A NDZANGA: Madam Chairperson, the renaming of the national botanical garden as Walter Sisulu National Botanical Garden is an honour, because the doors that were previously closed to black children are now open. Tat’ uSisulu, we salute you! We are aware of your presence in this House today. You suffered so that everyone could have a better life. [Applause.]
The visit to the Walter Sisulu National Botanical Garden by the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism was aimed at receiving input on the progress made in respect of global warming, the greening project, climate change and expansion.
The strategy of the botanical garden and the recruitment strategy for disadvantaged scientists is to advance the ANC policy of transformation. It was interesting to note that among the priorities of the Walter Sisulu National Botanical Garden was to transfer skills to the people, especially the youth, on plants and flowers of our country. The garden is also a tourist attraction.
We hope that in future there are going to be signs showing the direction to the garden. There were no signs to direct us when we visited the garden on 16 August 2005. We were guided by the spirit of Tat’ uSisulu.
In conclusion, the SA National Biodiversity Institute should be called upon to brief the community on the Greening of the Nation project, on the recruitment and retention of young, previously disadvantaged scientists and on its draft financial strategy to expand the Walter Sisulu National Botanical Garden.
The portfolio committee should undertake a study tour of the Pretoria National Botanical Garden to monitor the management of the garden, as well as monitor how indigenous plants and species are conserved.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, your time has expired.
Mrs R A NDZANGA: Thank you, Chairperson. Comrades, remember that no matter the age and no matter the size, a lion will always remain a lion, and it will roar. Roar, young lions, roar!
HON MEMBERS: Roar!
Mrs R A NDZANGA: Pula! [Rain!]
HON MEMBERS: Ha e ne! [Let it rain!] [Applause.]
Mr S N SWART: Madam Chair, allow me to roar, according to the ACDP. The report states that time constraints did not allow for the briefing on climate change by the SA National Biodiversity Institute. In a report released earlier this year, that institute warned that rising temperatures will change the face of South Africa. The greenhouse effect will exact a severe impact on resources such as water, and poor communities will be particularly affected.
Emerging farmers have been singled out as the most vulnerable group, and food production has been earmarked as a high-risk category. The question arises as to whether enough has been done to address the impact of climate change. Hunger, poverty and lack of access to water are already critical areas that require intervention. Climate change will increase these challenges. The ACDP trusts that climate change will be a priority focus for the portfolio committee.
The ACDP supports the report. I thank you.
Mme N P KHUNOU: Modulasetulo, maloko a Palamente, dumelang ka leina la Ntate wa rona. Ke batla go le netefaletsa gore mmuso ona, o ikemiseditse go tlhokomela batho le botshelo ba botlhe. Ditshepiso tsotlhe tseo mmuso wa ANC o di dirileng, o leka go di diragatsa. Bagaka ba rona bao ba robetseng, ba a itumela ko ba leng teng. Aforika Borwa e tla fetoga fa re ka tshwaragana ka matsogo gonne mabogo dinku a thebana. (Translation of Sesotho paragraph follows.)
[Chairperson, hon members, I greet you in the name of our Lord. I want to assure you that our government intends to care for our people and everyone’s lives. Regarding all the promises that the government has made, it is trying its best to fulfil them. Our heroes who passed away are very pleased where they are. South Africa will change if we can join hands, as we know people have to help one another.]
Often when there are conferences or discussions, the DA always criticises that we attend and we don’t implement. I want to reassure the House and our people out there that the ANC leads by example. It is committed to better the lives of our people. As part of our achievement, I would like to report on the visit of the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism concerning its attendance of the Johannesburg +2 Sustainable Development Conference, which was held in Midrand from the 1st – 3rd September 2004. It was a multiparty delegation and it really helped as part of oversight and monitoring.
Before I report on the visit, I would really like to congratulate this department for always keeping the members of the committee informed about their business and issues, and hope other departments can learn from this.
This conference was a follow-up to the commitment on the World Summit on Sustainable Development, WSSD. Its objective was to assess progress of meeting its goals and targets set in 2002, and discuss the way forward in order to ensure the ongoing legacy of Johannesburg development projects. As part of its global partnership and commitment, we were there to check if we were on track and, indeed, we are on track.
I have set aside four goals out of the goals that we dealt with. The first of those is to reduce the percentage of people without access to basic water and sanitation. As we all know, the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, DWAF, is the custodian of the nation’s water resource, and its role is to promote equity and efficiency. It is committed to put the poor first. The second point is the provision of infrastructure for water by 2008, and sanitation by 2010. I would like to tell the House that we are going to meet this target.
The third point is about social and economic programmes in order to eradicate poverty, and this is based on the vision of sustainable development. The last one is the linkage between social, economic and environmental protection.
These are some of the subjects which we discussed and if I dwell on all the targets I won’t finish, because of the time allocation. We dealt with all the issues comprehensively in the committees and members are welcome to read the report on their own.
This conference was a success. It involved all stakeholders. All three spheres of governance attended, as well as NGOs, CBOs, church organisations, etc. The Minister graced the occasion and emphasised that the government was committed to meet the targets and goals of sustainable projects set in WSSD. The main subject of the conference was the challenges that are facing us as South Africans. We need to co-ordinate our programmes in order to solve the problems together as a country and as the world at large.
We need to find ways of including plans in our integrated development plans, IDPs, in municipalities and find a workable solution with NGOs, CBOs, churches and communities. This integrated approach started with Agenda 21 and the spirit needs to be revived.
Another topic under discussion was the integration of biodiversity in sustainable development. I think we need to include all parts of our society in this. Africans, especially blacks, need to participate. There has to be a redefining link between poverty eradication and biodiversity integration as a whole.
There are examples of what we have achieved as a country on biodiversity. Communities who were evicted from areas like national parks have successfully won land claims. South Africa has moved swiftly to create six transfrontier conservation areas which form an integral part of the New Partnership for Africa’s Development since 1994.
South Africa has registered 325 natural heritage sites representing more than 46 000 hectares. The Working for Wetlands project has been utilised as a catalyst for fighting poverty to date. The list is endless. The ANC supports the report on oversight and monitoring. It is important that we all need to take this very seriously. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mong M T LIKOTSI: Modulasetulo PAC e badile mme ya amohela raporoto ena eo re e fumanang ho tswa mona potfolio comiting mme PAC e re ho bohlokwa haholo hore re baballe tikoloho ya rona le ho hopola hore ho bile le maano a tshwanang le a United Nation Millennium Summit Declaration Goals, moo ho entsweng qeto hore ho tlamehile hore ka selemo sa 2015 ho be ho fokoditswe bofutsana ka halofo mme PAC hape e batla e re:” ha ho buuwa ka taba tsena tsa tikoloho re tlameha hore re hopole hore matjhabatjhaba a ile a kopana mane Rio Brazil ka 1992, ho se neng se bitswa ka hore ke Rio Earth Summit ho shebisana ka ditsela tsohle tse ka sebediswang ho baballa tikoloho”. Translation of Sesotho paragraph follows.)
[Mr M T LIKOTSI: Hon Chairperson, the PAC has read and accepts the report of this portfolio committee and says that it is imperative that we preserve our environment and remember that there were policies similar to those of the United Nations Millennium Summit Declaration Goals, where it was decided that by the year 2015 poverty must be reduced by half, and the PAC says that when environmental affairs are mentioned, we must remember that the international community met in Rio, Brazil, in 1992, in what was called the Rio Earth Summit, to discuss all possible ways that can be used to preserve the environment.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, your minute has expired.
Mr M T LIKOTSI: PAC e amohela ke hona repoto ena. [The PAC supports this report.]
Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, everyone wants a safe and healthy sustainable environment to live in and we are proud of our department’s achievement. In light of the first report regarding the management of the department’s projects and sectors, we are pleased that funds have been efficiently utilised to develop, enhance and manage the sector.
As for the second report, the MF is eager to have a relationship developed between the department and local government. We believe that delivery shall be enhanced and intensification of public involvement in biodiversity projects may be enhanced in this respect. The Johannesburg +2 Sustainable Development Conference contributed greatly to this.
Both oversight visits were beneficial because they provided an opportunity to experience the development of biodiversity and the situation in areas needing attention. It is pleasing that the sector is working and is assisting in our efforts aimed at fighting against poverty and providing sustainable socioeconomic development. The MF supports the recommendation made by the sustainable development conference . . .
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, I regret your minute is also over.
Ms S RAJBALLY: Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr A D MOKOENA: Chairperson, let me start by congratulating our brand-new chairperson, the hon Langa Zita, who is going to lead our committee. We are expecting a lot from him, because he is a gifted leader.
I rise here, as a deployee of the ANC serving on the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism, to deliver a brief speech in support of our committee report on the oversight visits to Umtata and Port St Johns from 10 to 12 August 2005. Because our report has been tabled in Parliament and appears on the ATC, I will only highlight specific aspects that require attention.
I would like to situate my input by contextualising it in the mission and vision statement, as outlined in the business plan of our committee namely, and I quote:
The overall goal of the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism is to ensure the existence of linkages of environmental issues to social transformation; effective and efficient governance of the environment and conservation of biodiversity; and expedite transformation of the tourism industry in this second decade of our democracy in order to maximise job creation and eradicate poverty, facilitate public participation and consultation with the communities based on the principles of environmental justice, Vukuzenzele, social contract, voluntarism and Batho Pele.
Concerning the executive summary, in 1999, a National Poverty Relief Programme was launched as a vehicle to create jobs through the projects of various government departments. The Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism did, for each part, also embark on a strategy to work with communities and other stakeholders in order to identify poverty alleviation projects, with the hope that in the fruition of time, they may be sustainable and become permanent jobs.
National Treasury allocated R386 million to our department for the period 2004-05. The Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism identified 163 projects with a focus on working for tourism, people and parks, sustainable health-based livelihood, working for coast and working for waste.
Our study tour had a focus on the implementation and the reasons for success or failure of some of these projects in Umtata and Port St Johns in the Eastern Cape. The following 10 points were our main findings.
Firstly, the area that we were visiting falls under the jurisdiction of the O R Tambo district municipality and has a population of 1,7 million, which is far more than the entire population of Lesotho. It has a high rate of unemployment. Ecotourism investors entice local communities with money and dubious share schemes in exchange for their land. There is a lack of capacity-building concerning the locals. Learnership programmes do not benefit the local communities. Indigenous knowledge on biodiversity is undermined, especially by foreign environmental lobbies and their allies. The local Umtata Airport is grossly underdeveloped and this hinders economic growth of the O R Tambo district municipality. There is a desire to have Blue Flag status for Coffee Bay. Such a status is accorded to a clean beach and would protect the Wild Coast against the 4x4 invaders. There is a lack of community participation.
The mysterious disappearance of R70 million donated by the EU has angered communities around here. We recommended a forensic audit to clear the air for all concerned. Lastly, some EU investors recruit local people and traditional leaders to form consortia and trusts, and they have actually made them sign 25-year leases on their land. This has resulted in a mushrooming of illegal holiday resorts along the pristine parts of the Wild Coast. The committee urged strong law-enforcement by the O R Tambo district municipality and the support of the provincial government.
In conclusion, the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism’s National Poverty Relief Programme is realising some desirable deliverables in respect of job creation, through the procurement strategy. Secondly, the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, DEAT, should, however, ensure that the bulk of funds allocated to this programme are channelled directly to the unemployed beneficiaries instead of consultants with hefty overheads.
Finally, municipalities constantly complain that environmental and tourism matters are an unfunded mandate for them, thus they do not have a budget for them. Therefore DEAT must ensure that, through its procurement programmes, municipalities are informed and involved to ensure corporate governance. Thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move that the Reports be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Reports accordingly adopted.
The House adjourned at 17:47. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
TABLINGS
National Assembly
- The Speaker
(a) Letter from the Minister of Communications dated 2 November 2005
to the Speaker of the National Assembly, in terms of section
65(2)(a) of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of
1999), explaining the delay in the tabling of the Annual Report of
Telkom for 2004-2005:
TABLING OF ANNUAL REPORT AND FINANCIAL STATEMENTS IN PARLIAMENT
I refer to your letter dated 17 October 2005 regarding the non-
tabling of Telkom’s Annual Report and Financial Statements for
2004/05 financial year.
As you may be aware, Telkom applied for an exemption from certain
provisions of the Public Finance Management Act (PFMA) of 1999. The
application was based on the fact that with the listing of Telkom,
it would be impossible for Telkom to comply with certain provisions
of the PFMA and the listing requirements of the Johannesburg Stock
Exchange and New York Stock Exchange. In line with Section 92 of
the PFMA, the Minister of Finance exempted Telkom and its
subsidiaries and any other entities under its ownership control,
from certain provisions of the PFMA on 23 October 2001, as
published in the Government Gazette No. 22801 dated 09 November
2001, Notice No. 1097. The exemptions were for a period of three
years, and included Section 55, which makes provision for the
submission of Annual Reports and Audited Financial Statements by
public entities.
At the lapse of the three-year exemption period, the exemptions
were reviewed and on 5 November 2004, the Minister of Finance
granted Telkom an extension for a further period of three years, as
published in the Government Gazette No. 26981 dated 19 November
2004, Notice No. 1334. As a result, Telkom is exempted from
Sections 6(2)(e), 6(2)(f), 7(2), 7(4), 49, 50(1)(c), 50(1)(d),
51(1)(b)(ii), 51(1)(f), 51(1)(g), 52, 54(1), 54(2), 54(4), 55, 56,
58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 66(1), 66(3), 66(6), 66(7), 68, 76(4), 83 and
86 of the PFMA; and all provisions of the Treasury Regulations
issued in terms of the PFMA.
Notwithstanding Telkom’s exemptions, I will in future submit to the
national Assembly, in accordance with Section 65(2)(a) of the PFMA,
a written explanation regarding the non-tabling of Telkom’s Annual
report and Financial Statements, in line with the entity’s
exemption from Section 55 of the PFMA.
Kind regards
IVY MATSEPE-CASABURRI
MINISTER
(b) Letter from the Minister of Labour dated 1 November 2005 to the
Speaker of the National Assembly, in terms of section 65(2)(a) of
the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999),
explaining the delay in the tabling of the Annual Report of the
Information Systems, Electronics and Telecommunications
Technologies Training Authority (ISETT SETA) for 2004-2005:
TABLING OF ANNUAL REPORT AND FINANCIAL STATEMENTS IN PARLIAMENT
The Annual Report of the Information Systems, Electronics and
Telecommunications Technologies Training Authority (ISETT SETA) for
2004/2005 financial year has not been tabled in Parliament by 30
September 2005, as required in terms of Section 65(2)(a) of the Public
Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).
I was informed by the ISSET SETA that the office of the Auditor-
General has confirmed that they received ISSETT annual financial
statements, but would require two months (mid October 2005) to
finalise it. The Honourable Member would know that annual reports
should not be submitted without the signed audited financial
statements of the entity.
In regard to the Annual Reports and Financial Statements of the
Unemployment Insurance Fund as well as Forest Industries Sector
Education and Training Authority for 2004\2005 were tabled in
Parliament.
I will table the outstanding annual report as soon as it is finalized
and submitted to my office.
Kind regards
M M S Mdladlana, MP
Minister of Labour
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Assembly
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Report of the Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy on the Diamonds Second Amendment Bill [B 39 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 76), dated 9 November 2005: The Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy, having considered the subject of the Diamonds Second Amendment Bill [B 39 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 76), referred to it, and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 76 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B39A – 2005].
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Report of the Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy on the Electricity Regulation Bill [B 29 – 2005 (Reintroduced)] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 9 November 2005:
The Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy, having considered the subject of the Electricity Regulation Bill [B 29 – 2005 (Reintroduced)] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it, and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B29A – 2005].