National Assembly - 30 August 2005

TUESDAY, 30 AUGUST 2005 __



The House met at 14:02.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.


                             NEW MEMBER


The Deputy Speaker announced that the vacancy caused by the resignation from the NA of Mr C B Herandien had been filled by the nomination, with effect from 26 August 2005, of Mr J Schippers.


Mr J Schippers, accompanied by Ms C B Johnson, made and subscribed the oath and took his seat.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, before we proceed with today’s business, I wish to make the following announcement:

The window period for members to change party membership or parties to change their status in terms of the Constitution commences on 1 September and ends at midnight on 15 September 2005.

Members or parties who wish to use this window period to change their status should only do so within the window period, and may do so only once.

A member or members may only change membership of a party without losing their seats in the NA if he, she or they constitute at least 10% of the total number of seats held by the party that nominated them to the NA.

Any member or party wishing to make any change during this period should complete a special form, which has been prepared for this purpose. These forms are the only valid forms and will be available from the offices of the Secretary to the NA.

Members should note that for purposes of informing the Speaker of any intended changes, they should personally submit the completed form to either Mr Hahndiek in room EG33, New Wing or Mr Xaso in room EG35, New Wing, whom the Speaker has authorised as the only officials to receive such forms. The form includes covering notes containing details, which members and parties will need to comply with in order for the change to be valid. I thank you.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr R JANKIELSOHN: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the DA:

   That the House debates the ongoing problems relating to the
   implementation of the Firearms Control Act.

   I thank you.

Mr M STEPHENS: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day:

That the House –

    1) notes the dramatic escalation of South African fuel prices, with
       negative implications for inflation and detrimental consequences
       for household incomes, especially poor households;

    2) notes also that this escalation is mainly due to soaring
       international oil prices with crude now challenging the US$70
       per barrel mark, and that further dramatic increases are likely
       before the year’s end;

    3) recalls that during the presidential budget debate in July 2004
       in this House, the UDM made a specific proposal in this regard,
       namely that the government should seriously and urgently
       investigate the viability of entering into one or more crude oil
       swap arrangements with friendly supplier countries, and that
       such arrangements serve to fix the price of oil to both
       suppliers and purchasers of oil for an agreed period - the UDM
       believes there are a number of crude oil-producing countries
       that we have a friendly diplomatic relationship with, so
       negotiating a favourable swap arrangement should be possible;

    4) further recalls that the hon President’s reply to this
       suggestion intimated that certain unspecified actions were then
       being taken, and that favourable developments regarding the
       stabilisation of the fuel price were imminent;

    5) acknowledges that a year has elapsed during which no action has
       been taken, nor has the UDM suggestion been pursued or any other
       significant alternative implemented, resulting in continuously
       rising domestic fuel prices, and causing massive economic damage
       and social hardship; and

    6) debates South Africa’s fuel procurement policy at the earliest

I thank you.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, just for the record, I think there is an agreement between Whips as to how we treat notices of motion and members’ statements. I think what the member has done now is that he has clearly read a statement and has not given a notice of motion. We would just like to appeal to all members to desist from doing that.


                         (Draft Resolution)

Mnr T D LEE: Adjunkspeaker, ek stel hiermee sonder kennisgewing voor:

Dat die Huis — 1) sy skok en verbystering uitspreek oor die tragiese busongeluk in Kloofnekweg verlede Donderdag, 25 Augustus 2005, waarin vier mense, onder wie drie kinders, gesterf het; en

(2) sy diepste leedwese en simpatie betuig met die families wat
     geliefdes verloor het en ook die leerders, onderwysers en ouers van
     Dennegeur Primêre Skool, wat direk met die tragedie verbind is,
     sterkte toewens. Ek dank u

Goedgekeur.(Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.) [Mr T D LEE: I move without notice:

That the House –

 (1)    expresses its shock and bewilderment at the tragic bus accident
     in Kloofnek Road last Thursday, 25 August 2005, in which four
     people, including three children, died; and

 (2)    conveys its deepest condolences and sympathy to the families who
     lost loved ones and also wishes the learners, teachers and parents
     of Dennegeur Primary School who are directly connected to the
     tragedy everything of the best.



                        (Member’s Statement)

Mrs M M MADUMISE (ANC): Deputy Speaker, this is a tribute to the women of South Africa and the world. We salute the initiative taken by presiding officers to convene a Women’s Parliament, which commences today. For next two days, the focus of South Africans will be on the achievements of and challenges facing women. This auspicious gathering is a fitting tribute to bring to a close Women’s Month.

Since the historic march by thousands of South African women against Strydom’s government in 1956, impressive achievements have been recorded by women of South Africa and the world. Amongst the achievements are the following: ascendancy of women as leaders in the legislatures, as Ministers, and as leaders in business and civil society.

We wish to highlight some of the leading role models such as Frene Ginwala, the first Speaker of the democratic Parliament of South Africa; Getrude Mongella, the first President of the Pan-African Parliament; Minister Sigcau, who was honoured by African women of an accountancy association; Minister Fraser-Moleketi for transformation of the Public Service; and Minister N Dlamini-Zuma for her sterling efforts in advancing the course of developing countries in the transformation of the UN. Similarly, we salute Deputy President Mlambo-Ngcuka for her inspirational leadership.

The struggle for women’s emancipation confronts men and women alike. In this regard, we salute President Thabo Mbeki for his tireless efforts in championing women’s emancipation in South Africa and the African Union. I thank you. [Applause.]


                        (Member’s Statement)

Adv H C SCHMIDT (DA): Madam Deputy Speaker, it is outrageous that the government has sat idly by and watched the relentless rise in fuel prices without taking a single concrete step to ease the burden on consumers. About 30% of the price of a litre of petrol consists of taxes imposed by our government.

The high price of fuel will cause the inflation rate to rise, resulting in the increase in prices of basic commodities such as bread and milk. Sasol currently produces between 40% and 47% of South Africa’s liquid fuel requirements at the estimated cost of approximately US$25 per barrel, yet ordinary South Africans do not benefit from this.

We call on the government to take the following three steps to address the issue. Firstly, it must reduce the petrol price by revising a tax formula on liquid fuels. When the price of Brent crude is above a certain amount, for example US$50 per barrel, Sasol should have to pay a super tax on its profits to finance a reduction in the direct fuel tax on consumers.

Secondly, the government must subsidise biofuels production such as ethanol from mealies. Farmers who wish to produce biofuels should get a 150% tax write-off on equipment purchased. Thirdly, government should subsidise people who purchase next generation fuel-efficient cars. I thank you.


                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr M B SKOSANA (IFP): Deputy Speaker, at the Rhodesian HMS Tiger talks presided over by President Kaunda and Lord Soames, and, later, at the Lancaster House negotiations presided over by Prime Minister Thatcher and Lord Carrington, there were more than two negotiators around the table. It is a misplaced diplomatic intervention for the international community, including concerned South African civil societies and institutions, to insist on exclusive bilateral talks between Zanu-PF and the MDC as a prerequisite to peace, political stability and good governance in Zimbabwe.

It is not in the tradition of former liberation movement governments in Africa and elsewhere to willingly want to deliberate on the future of their country with their indigenous counterparts on an equal footing, except in instances where they have to conference with their former oppressors or colonial masters, hence President Mugabe’s indirect and ingenious expression conveying his openness to discuss the problems of Zimbabwe with the British Prime Minister and government.

The Zanu-PF-MDC talks are not an immediate viable political option and for this reason the South African government should insist on an urgent inter- Zimbabwean dialogue, multilateralism, and a generalised principle of conduct that would attract the support of other African states and international institutions to this process.

As long as a strong ruling faction of the people of Zimbabwe continues to associate the MDC and its leadership with the white colonial interests, the inclusion of other political, social and economic role-players inside and outside Zimbabwe will more than ever before become a cardinal imperative. I thank you. [Applause.]


                        (Member’s Statement)

Ms N P KHUNOU (ANC): Deputy Speaker, amongst the fundamental principles of democracy is the freedom to choose which organisation to belong to, to be able to express one’s opinion without fear and with respect for the rule of law. These are amongst the principles that constitute our country’s democratic foundation.

In the past few months, we observed certain political parties represented in this House seeking to dictate to their members what to think or which party or organisation to belong to. In an attempt to avoid the inevitable, some parties forced their members to take an oath saying that they will not defect to other parties.

Other members are forced to wear a badge, which reads as follows: “I am not a crosstitute”. Others have gentlemen’s agreements that “you will not take from me and I will not take from you”. There are those who asked their members to resign and to be reinstated after the window period. [Laughter.] These parties’ behaviour is a shame on our democracy and to those patriots who laid down their lives for our freedom and democracy.

The ANC calls upon all South Africans to use this window period to cross to parties of their choice. This is their constitutionally guaranteed right. I thank you. [Applause.]


                        (Member’s Statement)

Ms S N SIGCAU (UDM): Madam Deputy Speaker, the UDM is shocked by the reported number of disciplinary cases that have been finalised against South African teachers in the past 16 months or so.

A staggering 620 charges of misconduct were successfully brought against several hundred teachers. Even more disturbing is that many more cases are close to finalisation. This shocking misconduct included 62 cases of assault with a further 34 cases of assault against learners under investigation, as well as 109 cases of fraud and financial misconduct. But, by far, the most disturbing aspect of these revelations is that 49 teachers were found guilty of rape, sexual relationships with pupils and sexual harassment. Such revelations confirm the national statistics for these types of crimes.

However, it is particularly disturbing that whilst we, as a society, struggle to eradicate these crimes, they are being perpetuated through our education system.

We cannot realistically fight these crimes today when they are ingrained in our children, and thus already perpetuated into the following generation. Teachers must understand that they are in the vanguard of our efforts to build a better society. This places on them the highest of responsibilities and moral obligations.

We call on the Department of Education and the teachers’ unions to pursue stricter disciplinary measures. Not only should we have harsher penalties, but investigations of misconduct must also occur much more speedily. In the end there is no greater deterrent than justice being seen to be done, and being done swiftly. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.


                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr L W GREYLING (ID): Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The ID wholeheartedly supports the concept of a developmental state. It is clear that the challenges facing our society requires a strong state acting in unison with other sectors of our society to address poverty and inequality.

The term developmental state has, however, been bandied about without ever having been adequately defined and we want a national debate to take place in order to reach consensus on this issue, and for all actors to be aware of the responsibilities and actions in this regard.

The ID is also extremely concerned at the persistently high levels of inequality found in South Africa. Whilst some progress has been made in reducing racial inequality, income inequality in our country has not been addressed, and by some accounts has even become worse over the last 11 years.

The ID would urge the government to put in place policies and programmes that are able to seriously combat the situation and provide some form of relief to the millions of South Africans who live in abject poverty without any assistance from the state.

Greater equality is not only an admirable principle to be strived for, though, but as numerous economic studies have currently indicated, it can also be growth enhancing.

The experience of other developing countries has shown that the more equal the society the more economic growth it experiences. In fact, one study has shown that if we had to reduce our inequality rate by 10% it could lead to an increase in GDP by 1,3%.

The ID would therefore urge government to put more emphasis on helping the poorest of the poor communities in South Africa through increased social assistance and reducing the wide educational divide. The ID would also lobby for a comprehensive rural development strategy that can effectively address the huge levels of poverty found in rural areas.

Currently, about 65% of the poor and 78% of those chronically poor live in rural areas. Migration from rural areas is caused by food and health insecurities, a lack of access to sanitation and other basic facilities.

As a party that is committed to bridging the divides in South Africa we will continue to lobby for measures that can lead to a more equal and prosperous South Africa. I thank you. [Applause.]


                        (Member’s Statement)

Dr C P MULDER (VF Plus): Agb Mevrou die Adjunkspeaker, op 24 Augustus 2005 het die bestuur van PetroSA en die Sentrale Energiefonds voor Skoor en die minerale- en energiekomitee verskyn.

Normaalweg is daar ‘n bestaande reëling dat alle lede van die NV sodanige vergaderings kan bywoon, en ook kan vrae stel aan die betrokkenes. By dié vergadering is dit nie toegelaat nie, en is vrae beperk tot slegs lede van Skoor. Wesentlike vrae is nie gevra nie, en daarom sal ek vandag drie van hulle hier in dié Raad vra. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Dr C P MULDER (FF Plus): Hon Madam Speaker, on 24 August 2005 the management of PetroSA and the Central Energy Fund appeared before Scopa and the committee on minerals and energy.

Normally there is an existing arrangement that all members of the NA can attend such meetings, and also put questions to the persons concerned. At this meeting it was not allowed, and questions were limited only to the members of Scopa. Essential questions were not asked, and for that reason I will ask three of them here in this House today.]

Despite the drastic underperformance of PetroSA in 2003-04 in which profits plunged from R3,3 billion to a mere R240 million, the company paid R3,8 million in bonuses and performance payments to its executive directors and managers. How were these payments justified? Secondly, was the payment of R15 million to Imvume Management Limited in December 2003 intended as an advanced payment, or a loan advance?

Thirdly, why was due diligence not conducted before an unsecured payment of R15 million was made to Imvume Management Limited, of which R11 million ended up in the ANC’s election fund? [Interjections.] What explanation was given to the Auditor-General in this regard? [Interjections.]


Mr P A GERBER: Madam Deputy Speaker, the member is misleading the House, because he went to the meeting and after 10 minutes he left, so he doesn’t know what happened at the meeting. Thank you. [Interjections.]

Dr C P MULDER: Madam Deputy Speaker, may I address you on that point of order?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No. Will you please continue?

Dr C P MULDER: But could someone please workshop that member with regard to his ignorance? [Laughter.]

Die feit van die saak is, hier het ons nou pas ‘n voorbeeld daarvan gesien oor hoe die ANC probeer om hierdie saak te laat weggaan. Hierdie saak sal nie weggaan nie; daardie lid kan probeer soveel as hy wil, die feit van die saak is, ander lede is nie toestemming gegee of die geleentheid gegun om daar vrae te vra nie.

So, ek sê dat dié saak verder gevoer sal word. Ek wil vra dat die verslag van die Openbare Beskermer oor hierdie onderwerp so gou in die Huis as moontlik bespreek sal word. En in tussentyd, kan iemand asseblief daardie lid ``workshop’’ sodat hy kan bykom? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The fact of the matter is, that here we have just now witnessed an example of how the ANC is trying to make this case go away. This case will not go away; that member can try as hard as he wants to, the fact of the matter is that other members were not given permission or the opportunity to put questions there.

Thus, I am saying that this case will be taken further. I want to request that the report of the Public Protector, on this topic, be discussed in this House as soon as possible. And in the meantime, can somebody please workshop that member in order for him to catch up?]


                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr K A MOLOTO (ANC): Deputy Speaker, the ANC applauds the meeting of tax officials that took place in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. The purpose of the meeting was to fine-tune, harmonise and indigenise the strategy of tax collection on the continent.

There were a hundred participants from 12 countries on the continent. The forum recognises the fact that most of our tax collection practices originated in Europe, and in most cases, if not all, are not adapted to African, social, cultural and economic norms of our societies.

Our improved ability to collect taxes will go a long way in making the lives of our people better. It will eliminate the dependency syndrome created by donor funding.

The tax forum must developed strategies that will make tax systems fair, and make our citizens discharge their tax obligation on a voluntary compliance basis. I thank you. [Applause.]


                        (Member’s Statement)

Dr S M VAN DYK: Agb Adjunkspeaker, Suid-Afrika se bankkoste is van die hoogste ter wêreld. Banke in Suid-Afrika is besig om die verbruiker ‘n ondiens te bewys met die geweldige hoë bankkoste.

Die professionele dienstefirma Deloitte het so pas navorsing gepubliseer wat toon dat Suid-Afrika se bankkoste van die hoogste ter wêreld is. Dit is veral die vier groot banke wat monopolisties die toneel oorheers. Van die banke erken reeds dat bankkoste te hoog is, en dat dit tyd is vir ‘n omvattende ondersoek na tariewe wat die kostestruktuur bepaal.

Die DA betreur dat die regering reeds so lank gewag het om die algemene publiek te beskerm teen monopolistiese praktyke. Die DA verwelkom dit egter dat die regering ‘n paar dae gelede uiteindelik ‘n taakspan aangestel het om die bankbedryf te ondersoek vir aanbevelings om verdere ondersoek deur die Mededingingskommissie en die Mededingingstribunaal.

Die DA doen nou ‘n dringende beroep op die regering om die ondersoek na die kostestruktuur van banke ernstig deur te voer sodat die uitbuiting van die publiek kan end kry. Die DA sien uit na die bevinding van dié taakspan. Dankie, Adjunkspeaker. (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)

[Hon Deputy Speaker, South Africa’s bank charges are amongst the highest in the world. Banks in South Africa are doing the consumer a disservice with the tremendously high bank charges.

The professional auditors’ firm Deloitte recently published research findings that show that South Africa’s bank charges are amongst the highest in the world. It is particularly the four large banks that monopolistically dominate the scene. Some of the banks already admit that bank charges are too high, and that the time has come for a comprehensive investigation into tariffs that determine the structuring of charges.

The DA laments the fact that the government has waited so long to protect the general public against these monopolistic practices. The DA, however, welcomes the government’s eventual appointment of a task team a few days ago to investigate the banking industry for recommendations for further investigation by the Competition Commission and the Competition Tribunal.

The DA urgently calls on the government to seriously follow through with the investigation of the structuring of charges by the banks in order to put an end to the exploitation of the public. The DA looks forward to the findings of this task team. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.]


                        (Member’s Statement)

Ms S RAJBALLY (MF): Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am making this statement on behalf of the MF who is extremely disturbed and concerned at the state of the SAPS police station in the Bay View area in Chatsworth, KwaZulu-Natal.

It is an eyesore to see how the SAPS personnel have to function in a structure that quite honestly resembles an informal settlement. The building is ill-equipped with no proper facilities, and a shortage of staff, resources and vehicles are among the problems that hinder the SAPS in Bay View to fulfil their duties adequately and attend to the emergencies of the community.

Sadly, many appeals have been made to attend to this issue, but to no avail. Today I stand here appealing to both our national and provincial Ministers of Safety and Security to visit the Bay View SAPS and see the horrible conditions under which they are being forced to work, and by which the Bay View community is being compromised.

They need a proper, solid building facility, among other resources, and we seek this to be attended to as soon as possible.

Madam Deputy Speaker, on my visit I saw a picture of our hon national Minister of Safety and Security. I feel it is too handsome and smart to be placed in such an environment. Thank you. [Laughter.]


                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr L R R REID (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, South Africa’s Team Shosholoza has won their first race in an America’s Cup event. The team is making a maiden bid for the world’s oldest and most prestigious sporting trophy, and made history by becoming the first African entry to win a race in an America’s Cup qualifying event.

The Africans who are racing in the week-long match event sailed brilliantly last Sunday to defeat Sweden’s victory challenge, a veteran America’s Cup challenger, in home waters.

It was Team Shosholoza’a first win of the 2005 season in their new yacht, Shosholoza RSA83, which was designed and built in South Africa. The surprise victory came as a result of incredible teamwork and racing manoeuvres by the team.

The Swedish event counts points towards the Louis Vuitton Cup in 2007, which decides who will compete against Cup defenders Switzerland in the ultimate America’s Cup match in 2007.

The ANC congratulates Captain Salvatore and his team coming from, amongst others, townships in the Western Cape and Gauteng, on their sterling performance. This clearly illustrates the ANC’s resolve to provide equal opportunities and equity to all South Africans. I thank you. [Applause.]

                       COMMISSIONS OF ENQUIRY

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mrs S M CAMERER (DA): Madam Deputy Speaker, President Mbeki’s suggestion of yet another commission of enquiry, the third arising from the prosecution of ex-Deputy President Jacob Zuma, is a politically desperate move and a measure of the crisis for the ANC arising from the fact that one of its most powerful and popular figures is now, himself, facing corruption charges. The other two commissions were the Hefer and Khampepe commissions that were appointed at huge cost to the taxpayer.

But while the President is quick to call for a commission of enquiry into Cosatu’s conspiracy theories, albeit internal, he appears loath to launch a similar enquiry into the ANC’s role in the Oilgate scandal. [Interjections.]

South African taxpayers are not too fussed about whether or not President Mbeki is driving a campaign against Zuma, but they want to know how their money found its way into ANC coffers via a front company. [Interjections.] And there are still outstanding questions on the arms deal, which we believe should be investigated by a judicial commission of enquiry.

Will this latest commission of enquiry hold any benefit for South Africa? If it renders the possibility of a Zuma presidency less likely, then perhaps it will be worthwhile. The Zuma camp has shown a cynical disrespect for the rule of law and our legal institutions. If Zuma should ever become President, it would mean the end of constitutionalism, good governance and the rule of law. Thank you. [Applause.]

                     THE CENSORING OF SABC NEWS

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr V B NDLOVU (IFP): Madam Deputy Speaker, the SABC, as a national public service broadcaster, is supposed to be committed to fulfilling its mandate to bring South Africa world-class entertainment, education and information.

It is therefore very unfortunate that the politically appointed officers of the SABC has now decided to censor the SABC news, and only show those items that suits the government and portrays it in a favourable light.

One of the values of the SABC as listed in its vision and role is integrity. The SABC has, however, certainly not been showing any great deal of integrity in the way they have dealt with the recent incident of KwaZulu- Natal involving the hon Deputy President, which was not her fault.

As the national broadcaster the SABC has an obligation to be honest with the public and provide bias-free news. We therefore urge them to act in accordance with their values in fulfilling their mandate, and to stop being a government propagandist. Thank you.


                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr S B NTULI (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, the realisation of the objective of a better life for all our people includes the safety and security of our citizens in the areas where they work, live and study.

The ANC applauds the initiative taken by the MEC for safety and security, Comrade Leonard Ramatlakane, of the Western Cape to set aside R1 million for specialised training. The training will be provided to 60 people recruited from a range of law-enforcement agencies, such as the SA Police Service, the Directorate of Public Prosecutions, the intelligence community and the SA Revenue Service.

The focus of the training will be on the importance and strengthening of integrated investigations across the various arms of the law. The ANC calls on our people to continue their good work of assisting the police in fighting crime. I thank you. [Applause.]



                        (Minister’s Response)

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOLIMO NEZOMHLABA: Sekela Somlomo, ngiyalibonga leli thuba lokuthi sikwazi ukuphendula izincomo nemibuzo esinokukwazi ukuyiphendula ebuzwe amalungu.

Ngingathanda mhlawumbe ukuthi ngithi impela siyavumelana nalokhu okushiwo umhlonishwa uNdlovu weqembu le-IFP ukuthi ukukhishwa kwezindaba nezinhlelo ngabezindaba ezazisa umphakathi kufanele kwenziwe ngendlela okuyiyo.

Ngingasho nje ukuthi uma mhlawumbe ulibonile iphephandaba lanamhlanje, umphathi we-SABC, uMnu Dali Mpofu, useqale uphenyo ukuthi kuzwakale kahle ukuthi ngabe kwenzekani ngalesi simo esenzeka e-Utrecht, KwaZulu-Natali, njengoba usushilo. Sethembe-ke ukuthi lokho kukhombisa ukungachemi kwalabo abaphetheyo kwa-SABC ngokuthi babheke umnyombo wezikhalazo ezenziwe ngabantu baseNingizimu Afrika ngendlela ababona ngayo ukuhamba kwezinto. Sethemba-ke lokho ukuthi kuyosiza ukucacisa kabanzi udaba lolu osulubekile.

Ngiphinde ngibonge elungeni le-ID eliphakamise kakhulu ukubaluleka kokuthi masibhekane nesimo sendlala nobuphofu, ngokuthi izinhlelo esizibekayo zizame ukufukula kumbe zithuthukise labo bakithi abasahluphekayo. Ngibonge- ke mhlawumbe nesincomo asenzile sokuthi kuzofanele kesixoxisane sifakane imilomo njengezakhamuzi zaseNingizimu Afrika ukuthi ngabe sikubona ukuthuthuka kwalo hulumeni kufanele kume kanjani, njengoba esho nje ukuthi mhlawumbe kungaba yinkinga kwabanye ukuthi uma sikhuluma ngohulumeni osathuthukayo okuthiwa phecelezi ngesilungu “developmental state” ngabe sisho ukuthini. Ngiyethemba-ke ukuthi kuyoba nelungelo lokuthi amalungu ahloniphekile okuyiwona akha izingxoxo okufanele zibe khona lapha ePhalamende ayolubeka mhlawumbe usuku lokuthi kuxoxiswane ngalokhu. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity which allows us to interrogate and give answers to questions asked by members.

I fully agree with what the hon Ndlovu of the IFP says, namely that the broadcasting of news and other informative programmes by the media should be done responsibly.

If you have had sight of today’s newspaper, you would have read that the CEO of SABC, Mr Dali Mpofu, has set up an investigation around the events that took place in Utrecht, in KwaZulu-Natal, as you mentioned. We hope that that move of investigating the cause of complaints and suggestions from the people of South Africa is an indication of objectivity on the part of SABC management. We hope that such a move will broadly clarify the issue you have raised.

I also want to thank the member of the ID who highlighted the imperative of fighting poverty by making the programmes that we put in place seek to empower and develop the poor. I also appreciate the recommendation she made to the effect that we should hold discussions and share ideas as South Africans and express views on how this government should shape development. As she indicated, there may be confusion as to what we mean when we speak of a government that is in a process of development, the so-called a developmental state. I hope that those hon members who compile order papers for Parliament will schedule a date on which this matter will be discussed.]

I would also want to comment on the point, though maybe not in detail, raised by the hon member from the DA with regards to the petrol price. One does appreciate the concern that has been raised regarding the escalation in the price of oil in the world. Obviously, as we know, there are very few countries that produce and sell oil worldwide, which sometimes means that, in terms of market forces, none of us can be the determinants of the prices.

As much as we all appreciate the impact, I’m sure you’ll realise that the storm yesterday and the day before in the United States has also had an impact on how petrol prices are going in the world and are likely to go. Unfortunately, in any market condition, some of these fluctuations do happen. I think the issue, if I listened to you very well, is how we find a sustainable way in which we as a country mitigate such fluctuations as they happen.

Obviously, the issue of looking at liquid fuels in the broad sense is a matter that the Department of Minerals and Energy has been examining. The subject of biofuels has been one of the issues on which there has been a discussion among the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Minerals and Energy and the Department of Science and Technology, as well as the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism to actually look at what options we have as a country.

One of the issues you raised is an issue that relates to maize as one of the commodities that can be used - sugar in terms of ethanol gel is one such commodity. There are also plants that can be used for alternative fuels. What would also be important is that we would need to balance issues of food security, on the one hand, with issues of fuel need for the country on the other.

Similarly, we will also have to look at issues of environmental concern. So, I think in time we will be able to come to Parliament to indicate what direction we think we as a country would go follow with regard to those issues.

Regarding whether or not we need to subsidise tax concessions for those farmers who would take this option, I would prefer not to comment. That’s a matter that I think is still open for debate.

To respond to the hon Sheila Camerer’s question regarding the two commissions referred to, firstly, as you would appreciate in the context of the Hefer commission, I think it was correct that the President and government appointed that commission, because the allegations that were made to the National Prosecutor of the country indeed required that there be clarity on the matter so that there could be confidence in all citizens with regard to that issue.

Secondly, regarding the Khampepe commission, as you know the location of the Scorpions has actually been a matter for debate, not just in this House, but outside it too, and it is not a matter occasioned by the matters surrounding the former Deputy President, Jacob Zuma. The issue, obviously, is that within that context you wouldn’t just wake up and take a decision, saying that you’re moving this element of the prosecution to wherever without following a process.

I think that what has been good about the commission is that it has allowed an opportunity for members of the public and for members of the political parties in the country to say, according to their own experience, what they think is best. We have seen, I’m sure, in the paper this weekend that Khampepe has actually also gone to the United States to look at how their judicial system works, vis-à-vis the FBI and other law-enforcement agencies, so that we can also reflect for ourselves what is in the best interests of the country going forward. The latter . . . [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon Minister!

The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Sorry, Deputy Speaker, just . . . “kancane nje” . . . [ . . . a little . . . ]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, you’ve responded to four statements, and actually we can only allow one Minister to . . .

The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: ``Ngiqedele nje?’’ [Just to conclude?]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Asisekho isikhathi sokuqedelela, mama. Siyabonga. [Ihlombe.] [There’s no time to finish,madam. Thank you. [Applause.]]

Are there any other ministerial responses?


                        (Minister’s Response)

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Madam Deputy Speaker . . . [Interjections.] Thank you very much for that ``pasella’’ [free] advice. Thank you very much. You need to give it to the IFP.

The first thing is the issue that was raised by the MF - uMaMkhize. We do agree with you that if there is a building that is inadequate, like that at the Bay View police station, I should bring it to the attention of my colleague, the Minister of Safety and Security, who I am acting for, as well as to the attention of MEC for safety and community liaison in KwaZulu- Natal. In order to have police members that work effectively, you need to house them in a proper building. So, we will definitely look into that.

The second issue was that of the MEC in the Western Cape and the way that people of the Western Cape were being trained to work together with the police. We really call on all our people to work and support the police in the work that they do. The last issue – not ruling from the grave – is about Team Shosholoza. The level of development that took place to prepare for Team Shosholoza – and I’m not ruling from the grave because I know I was the Minister of Sport and Recreation then – clearly indicates and confirms our belief that with development and opportunities given to all our people comes winning and support.

It also comes with cohesion for teams that adhere to the transformation of our country. Whether Mr Lee likes it or not, it now is really showing what we’ve been saying over the years works. It works the way that the government of the ANC says it should work. Thank you. [Applause.]


                        (Minister’s Response)

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Deputy Speaker, I think, as I said last week in response to a statement by a member, one of the things we need to do as a country is to begin to examine how we regard our schools and our children as a society.

I have been looking at a range of countries and disciplinary cases that they have, and very few have situations in which teachers engage in the levels of sexual abuse that we are seeing with respect to disciplinary cases in our country. So, this is not a matter for us to merely raise here, but to actually go into our communities to ensure that our parents, as they serve on the school governing bodies, hold our teachers to account in that our teachers are professional in their conduct.

We should recall as well that these 600 cases are 600 out of a teaching profession of 350 000 teachers in South Africa. So while the number is small – and I think I agree with some of the unions that said that we wanted to make everyone seem bad - it’s important while we are concerned to acknowledge that the majority of teachers are doing what they should be doing and that the disciplinary cases you see actually show that the department is acting, because it is through our institutions and structures that these cases are being conducted and that the bad apples are being weeded out.

We will continue to do so, but we require the support of every parent and every member of Parliament to ensure that the people who enter the profession conduct themselves in a manner that accords with the responsibility that we have given to them – that of our children. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]

                        GOVERNMENT ELECTIONS


Mr B M SOLO: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members, members of society sitting in the gallery and South Africans out there, on 3 September 2005, in fact four days from now, the Independent Elections Commission, IEC, will launch a voter registration campaign. Whilst 3 September 2005 is going to be a remarkable event, surely it is not the end, save to say that it is the beginning of a process that would ensure that people participate in determining their future and building a caring society.

To avoid confusion, voter registration on 3 September 2005 is meant to ensure that eligible voters are registered in order for them to be able to vote in the coming local government elections.

Accordingly, from this podium, the ANC calls upon all our people to come out in numbers to ensure that they are registered. The call goes particularly to young people who will be voting for the first time. We would further extend the call to women, people in rural areas, on farms and in peri-urban areas.

Ibaluleke kakhulu into yokuba senze indlela yokuba abantu abahlala ezifama bangavalelwa ngabelungu babo ngale mini, ukwenzela ukuba bakwazi ukuya kubhalisela uvoto. Senzela ukuba nabo bakwazi ukubeka uluvo lwabo ngevoti.

Amava ethu abonisile ukuba kukho abantu abavalelwayo ngolu hlobo minyaka le, ngakumbi kwiindawo ezifana neSuikerbossrand phaya kwiphondo laseRhawutini. Akukho ndoda ingenayo kwaye kungekho napolisa livunyelwe ukungena kule fama. Kufuneka ukuba sizame ukubalungiselela aba bantu, kuba bona abakwazi ukuzithethelela njengathi, baxhomekeke kubelungu babo. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[It is going to be important for us to ensure that farmers allow their farm workers to go and register on this day. By having them cast their votes, we will be trying to ensure that their voices are heard.

We have had situations of people being prohibited from exercising this right in places like Suikerbosrand in Gauteng. No man or police is allowed on this farm. We should help these people because they cannot speak for themselves the way we can. They depend on their white employers.]

Lest we forget, our people, in 1955, during the most historical event, resolved that the people shall govern. The Freedom Charter, one of the ANC policy documents, makes it clear in its demands that, and I quote: “Every man and woman shall have the right to vote.” This was one of the demands of the people. Therefore the people have the opportunity to exercise this right.

For South Africans to realise all these demands, including the one that says the people shall govern, it becomes critically important to play the role that they are supposed to play in this democratic dispensation as embodied not only in the Freedom Charter, but in the country’s supreme law, the Constitution of our country.

In a structured form, our democratic dispensation provides for periodic elections. To realise the vision of the Freedom Charter, we need not only ensure participation but also develop enabling tools, efforts and resources that will enable people to participate in the determination of their welfare and future.

The slogan “Your vote is your voice” should be transformed to its logical meaning: Let your voice be heard and acted upon through mass participation. This government, of course ANC-led, introduced various pieces of legislation to provide South African citizens with an affordable and reasonable opportunity to exercise their rights in a democratic society. Local government is at the coalface of delivery. It is this sphere of government that is close to the people.

May I, once more, go back to the slogan that says “Your vote is your voice, let your voice be heard”. The launch of the registration campaign should be treated with the importance it deserves. The campaign is a conscious effort to afford all and sundry an opportunity to go and register or check their names where they registered before. We do this by bringing resources and facilities closer to the people.

What is required from the people is to bring along their barcoded IDs to register or check whether their names appear on the voters’ roll in the different voting districts. People must ensure that they register at the voting district where they are going to vote on the day of the election.

It is important to stress that structures and systems have been put in place to ensure popular mass participation of the people in this government. The next speaker from the ANC will deal with this matter; suffice it to say that they will start with registration, elections and move up to governance. Democratic structures have been established for people to raise issues of concern.

Of course, people have rights to do certain things that would draw the attention of elected representatives and institutions. But those who exercise these rights should do so in a disciplined manner and make use of the structures and systems. There are provisions that exist in many pieces of our legislation, regarding local government.

This brings me to the following provisions in the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, chapter 1, which deal with rights and duties of members of local communities, and chapter 4, which deals with community participation. Whilst the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act has provision for structures where the local community can exercise this right . . .

. . . siyazi ukuba bakhona oongantweni abazicingela ngcono, abangenza nantoni na ukucitha into entle kuba ingabanelisi bona; oohlohlesakhe abajonge ukufumana inzuzo okanye amalungelo athile, abaza kuzama ngazo zonke iindlela ukugalela amanzi nokuchitha iphulo elihle njengeli. Iyindlalo nje kubo, kukufa kuthi. Banabo ke phofu nobuchule bokudungadunga isizwe ukuze iinjongo zabo zobuqhophololo zibe nokuphumelela. Abanye bathi: “Kwekhu! Akundincedi nganto oku, ngoba ishishini lam liqhuba kakuhle. Ndinento yonke: ipomakazi lendlu, umnyobo wenqwelo-mafutha, abantwana bam bafunda phesheya kweelwandle ngoko ke andiyi apho. Kwaye akukho kwanto eza kwenzeka.”

Kuthi ngengomso kwakufika imbalela, izikhukhula zeemvula okanye aqhekezelwe zizihange, unkabi noogxa bakhe baba ngobokuqala ukukhonkotha okwezinja, bethukisa bebiza amagama angaziwayo. Abanye ke ngenxa yokungamkeleki kweenjongo zabo eluntwini nasekuhlaleni, baye nabo bakhawuleze ukugxeka. Maxa wambi babhala zonke izinto ezingalunganga, babe bexoka ke phofu. Baziingcuka ezombethe ufele lwegusha, bathi xa kuvela amathuba ubabone bechwechwa besondela, besithi: “Nathi besikhona xa ubuxovulwa lo mba.”

Abanye maxa wambi abacacelwa kakuhle, abanazo iindlela zokufikelela kwii- ofisi zoncedo ngenxa yeemeko abaphila phantsi kwazo. Ngeli phulo senza indlela yokufikelela kubo ukwenzela ukuba wonke umntu abe negalelo.

Kubalulekile ke ukuba abantu bethu baphume ngobuninzi babo ngomhla wesi-3 kuSeptemba 2005, baye kukhangela ukuba bakho na kumaxwebhu obhaliselo-voto. Siyazi ukuba kumaxesha amaninzi, abantu abayi kubhalisa okanye kujonga ukuba babhaliswe phi na kula maxwebhu, ze bathi ngosuku lovoto, mhlawumbi kuba ilusuku lweholide, bavuke njengabanye abantu bafune ukuya kuvota, babuye sele besithi bona bagxothiwe phaya, abafuneki.

Sicela bonke abantu abo bakwaziyo ukuthetha nabantu, amaphephandaba, oonomathotholo, iicawa nabefundisi, amaKrestu, amaSlamsi, njalo njalo, ukuba sincedisane ukwakha le demokhrasi ngendlela efanelekileyo ukuze abantu basebenzise ithuba labo lokuvota banyule abantu ababafunayo. Ndiyabazi kodwa ukuba baza kuvota njani, andizi kuchaza namhlanje.

Akuvotwa ngomhla wesithathu, koko kuyabhaliswa. Masingaxokisi abantu sithi kuyavotwa, mabangayi, ngoba kaloku xa abantu bebhalisile bathanda ukuvotela thina aba. [Kwahlekwa.] Ngoko ke masingabaxokisi abantu koko masibaxelele ukuba kuyabhaliswa. Siza kuluchaza ke usuku lonyulo.

Singagaya iivoti ngamandla kuba iivoti ziyasetyenzelwa. Akasoze ancede mntu amaphephandaba ngokuthi abhale yonke into embi emhlabeni ngalo rhulumente. Siza kube sigaya iivoti ke thina, ngoba siyazi ukuba nina, bahlekazi, anikwazi, kodwa ke sincediseni ukuze abantu babhalise bakwazi ukuthabatha inxaxheba kuvoto.

Andithi sikhalela idemokhrasi ngalo lonke ixesha? Ngoko masincedise ekwakheni idemokhrasi, singameli kude kuba sisoyika ukuba abantu baza kuvotela uKhongolose. Enyanisweni wena, abantu bayamthanda uKhongolose. Ungabona betsibatsiba, kanti bafuna ukuba sihlale phantsi sixoxe ngezinto zethu. Yiyo ke loo nto sisitsho kubo bonke abemi beli lizwe ukuba mabaphume ngobuninzi babo baye kubhalisa.

Ndingathanda kwakhona ukuthi nakula madoda alapha anento yonke, iinqwelo- mafutha, ubuchule bokuthetha nabantu, nabanikazi beefama, mabathethe nabantu. Xa kubanjwe iimbizo, abantu mabakhuthazwe ukuba baye kubhalisa.

Siyakhumbuza kwakhona ukuba siqinisekise ukuba ukuba baya kubhalisa, sibancedise, sibacacisele, singabaxokisi sithi kuyavotwa ngomhla wesi-3 kuSeptemba, kodwa kuyabhaliswa, kulungiselelwa usuku lokuvota eliya kukhankanywa kuyo le Ndlu.

Siyacela kumadoda amakhulu, njengoko sele nditshilo, ukuba athethe ngazo iilwimi, ezicaweni phaya, emithandazweni ngoLwesine. Siyabacela oomama ukuba baluthandazele olu suku ukuze bonke abantu baphume baye kubhalisa.

Ingayinto entle ukubona bonke abantu bethu bebhalisile, bethatha inxaxheba kunyulo loomasipala, ngoba oomasipala babaluleke kakhulu ebantwini ngoba ngabo abazisa iinkonzo nqo ebantwini. Xa ndigqibezela, sithi: Amaqobokazana angalal’endleleni, yazini kunyembelekile. Ndiyabulela. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[ . . . we know that there are useless people who think highly of themselves, who would also do anything to disrupt a process if they are not satisfied with it. Those are the greedy people, who are looking to gain or enjoy certain privileges and who would, in every way possible, distract a campaign such as this.

They seem to possess a certain ability to bring the nation into disrepute in order to pursue their corrupt activities. Some would even say: This does not seem to be working for me because my business is doing very well. I have everything, a mansion, a beautiful expensive car, my children attend school overseas, therefore I am going nowhere and nothing will materialise of this government anyway.

When drought and heavy rains come or when their houses get broken into, they and their friends are the first to complain. Some would be quick to criticise if and when their ideas have not been accepted. They say a lot of bad things, mostly giving incorrect facts. They are crooks and opportunists and say: We were also there when this matter was discussed.

The day of 3 September 2005 is just a registration day and not the day of the election. We should not lie to people and tell them that it is the election day, and also discourage them because it is commonly known that they will vote for us. [Laughter.] Let us not misinform people. Let us give them the correct information. The election date will be announced shortly.

Certain things are not clear to some people, while some might not be able to access information due to their living conditions. Through this campaign we are hoping to reach everybody and ensure that they make their mark.

It is important that our people go to register in their numbers on 3 September 2005 or to check whether their names appear on the voters roll. We know that in most cases people do not go to register or to check their names on the voters roll but would, on the election day, perhaps because it is a holiday, suddenly decide to go and cast their votes like others and later claim that they were chased away from the voting stations.

We would like to call on all the people, the newspapers, radio stations, church ministers, Christians, Muslims, and many others to assist us in building our democracy in the manner that is most appropriate and ensure that people exercise their right to vote and elect those delegates that they feel confident would represent their needs. I know how they would vote, but I am not going to tell today.

It is just the registration on 3 September 2005 and not the day of election. We should not lie to people and tell them that it is election day, thereby discouraging them because it is commonly known that they will vote for us. [Laughter.] Let us not misinform people. Let us give them the correct information. The election date will be announced in due course.

We campaign for the votes because we need to work in order to win them. It would help no one to go to newspapers and criticise this government. We will continue talking to people and hopefully win them because as you know, you sirs over there cannot do that. However, we would like you to help us tell people that they need to register to vote.

Do we not always talk about the significance of democracy? We should therefore assist in maintaining it and not stand aside because we fear people will vote for the ANC. It is true that people like the ANC. One may find them embarking on a number of activities, some disruptive, and that would be a way of trying to catch our attention. It is for that purpose that we are calling on all the citizens of the country to come out in their numbers and go and register.

I would like to ask those men who are rich and possess everything, those who have cars, the ability to speak to people and farm owners to talk to people. During izimbizo and ordinary meetings people should be asked to go and register to vote.

I implore you to talk to the people and encourage them, explain to them the significance of the day of 3 September 2005 and that it is in preparation of the election date which would be announced at a later stage.

As I have already said, please go to the people and encourage them to register. Talk to them in all languages in their churches and ask them, during their Thursday prayer meetings, to pray for all the people to come out in their numbers on this day.

It would be a good thing to see everybody registered to vote and taking part in the local government elections, because it is the tier of government that is vital to service delivery.

In conclusion I would like to say: Young women never sleep over at someone else’s place. If they do, things are extraordinary bad. I thank you. [Applause.]]

Mr R COETZEE: Madam Deputy Speaker, there are two issues I need to address to the ANC and to the government before I move on to the more important business of talking to the voters and potential voters of South Africa.

Firstly, it is simply wrong to hold a registration day without any idea of when the election is going to be. Particularly for students, many of whom are resident in more than one place. It is wrong, because they don’t know where to register. If the government were serious about doing something concerning “the apathy of the youth”, as the previous speaker has suggested exists, it would have indicated the likely time of the election already. Instead it plays politics by saying nothing, and hopes to gain an unfair advantage in that way.

Secondly, it needs to be said right now that no election in South Africa can be free and fair if the ruling party is being financed inappropriately by taxpayers. [Interjections.] That is what happened when Imvume gave R11 million to the ANC and PetroSA had to use another tranche of public money to buy the oil that Imvume was supposed to buy with that R11 million in the first place.

Back in 1997, the Minister of Sport, whom I’m sad to see has left us, in his capacity as the ANC’s treasurer-general, said that the ANC raised money by being a facilitator for black business. In other words the ANC helps to organise contracts and the business in question helps to fund the ANC. That is a recipe for massive, systemic corruption that makes a mockery of a properly functioning multiparty democracy. [Interjections.]

In theory, democracy is a system in which the voters have control over their government and hence over their lives and futures. In a dictatorship the people belong to the government. In a democracy it’s the other way round and so, at the heart, democracy is about power and about the autonomy of individuals – it is about having the power to decide who governs, and the power to ensure that they govern on your behalf and in your interests.

But research and experience tell us that far too many voters in our country do not feel a sense of ownership over the government. They do not feel that they control the future of their country through their votes. Instead, they feel ignored or misunderstood and consequently powerless.

And so, increasingly, voters are not registering to vote, and of those who do, fewer and fewer actually vote, which is why the turnout in last year’s election dropped by 12% when measured against the turnout in 1999. Now, very often, political parties – I’ll get to you in a moment - are blamed for this state of affairs. We are accused of not inspiring voters, or worse, of turning them into cynics - and some of this criticism is justified. [Interjections.]

If you look, for instance, at the way in which certain parties use and abuse the floor-crossing legislation, it is no wonder that the voting public gets turned off the political process - and I notice you are not saying anything now, because politics is meant to be about people, not about power, positions and perks. [Interjections.]

But on the other hand, in a country where every adult is entitled to vote, you must also concede that the people get the government they deserve, because a vote is a lever of power, and it only works if it is used. One of the challenges of our democracy is not so much the fact that people don’t register and don’t vote, but that they are so complacent when they do.

I watched in astonishment last year as fellow residents in the City of Johannesburg waited patiently and without complaint as we were messed around by an accounts department that was too busy chatting and having tea to attend to the growing queue of ratepayers who wanted service.

An electorate should never be grateful. It should always be demanding, and that is a lesson you are going to learn. [Interjections.] That is what was positive about the protests around South Africa recently. People had to get to the point where enough was enough. They wanted to make their voices . . . [Interjections.] . . . You took the Western Cape through floor-crossing, actually - try to get your facts straight; and that’s exactly the point I was making earlier: You don’t think about the voters, you think about yourselves – the people want a reaction. [Interjections.]

So, to the voters of our country today, I would say that protests and complaints are not enough. Take the opportunity to register on Saturday; take the opportunity to vote; and then vote not out of gratitude and not out of loyalty, but out of pure, unbridled self-interest, because if you don’t register and don’t vote, then don’t complain afterwards when services aren’t delivered and corrupt politicians steal your money.

Use your vote to get what you want from the politicians. If they have served you ill, get rid of them and try something new. Your vote means that you’re the boss. This election is your chance to put yourself in the seats of Mr Trump and Sexwale and say to the ANC: “You’re fired!” [Applause.]

Mr P F SMITH: Madam Deputy Speaker, colleagues, there are a number of reasons why people should register to vote for the forthcoming elections. I think the first point is that we are a multiparty democracy; one that we are all extremely proud of and elections underpin that democracy - fair, free and regular elections.

The second point is that of all the rights in the Bill of Rights probably the most important, and certainly the hardest fought for, are the political rights, the political rights which give you the franchise, and it is the exercise of the franchise that in fact gives you the government that you get and hopefully the government you want.

Thirdly, you cannot in this country exercise your franchise unless you register, and in fact by not registering you are effectively disenfranchising yourself.

Finally, if elections are to occur on the first possible date - it could be early December - then 3 September is going to be the only day that people would have to register in a nationwide registration drive. So, it is an opportunity to be used and we urge everyone to use it.

For people who are not registered – that’s the process to follow. But if you believe that you are registered, even then it is equally important to go and check whether you are in fact still registered, because administrative mistakes happen and people get removed from the roll.

Another factor is that a lot of voting districts and voting stations have changed. So, if you don’t go and check where you are registered, you could arrive on voting day to find the gates closed at what you thought was a voting station. Then you’ll have to run around, scurry around, trying to find where to vote.

One must remember that in this election, unlike previous ones, one has to vote at the voting station at which one registered. You cannot go wandering around the ward and just find another locality and fill in another form and vote; that won’t happen.

In addition to those specific points, there are a few general observations I would like to make in respect of registration issues: The first is that the figures that we as parties are using to know whether people are registered are often totally wrong. You can be told at a local level that registration is 90% in this community or 50%, whereas in reality the figures could just as well be the other way round, because they are based upon very, very outdated statistics.

Secondly, in this country there is, ostensibly at least, a continuous voter registration process, but this is more fiction than fact. I think it is more important too that the municipal electoral offices and municipal managers make some sort of effort to allow that process to unfold properly, the way it’s meant to.

Thirdly, there is in this country a national schools’ project – a very good one - in terms of which learners, who at the age of 16 are issued with IDs, are simultaneously enrolled on the voters’ roll. It’s an excellent programme. We want to urge that this is universally applicable to every single secondary school in the country and not selectively used. Fourthly, it is really problematic having a voters’ roll with no addresses on it. A voters’ roll should have addresses, but in this country we do not have a national address system. The issue has been addressed many times over the past 10 years, with no agreement, no commonality on the way forward. We would urge government to appoint a task team or a lead department to take the leaders and drive some sort of resolution of the matter. In the meantime we will go on election after election without addresses and that needs to be sorted out.

Finally, I would like to make the following statement; in fact, I think it is an important announcement: I have it on the highest authority that in fact nearly all ANC supporters have already registered and that the ANC can now relax regarding 3 September. On that basis, I would like to call on every IFP supporter in South Africa to register on 3 September. Thank you. [Interjections.]

Mr M STEPHENS: Madam Deputy Speaker, I have only one minute, and I want to use that merely to say that of course it is important to register. Of course it is important that Parliament and parliamentarians play a very vital role in exhorting people to go and register to vote.

The people shall not govern unless the people vote, and the people cannot vote if they do not register. It is extremely important that we make people realise that the result of your vote is directly related to the result of the service that you get. There is a direct link, and I think people in South Africa don’t realise that there is a direct link between whom you vote for and the results that you get in service delivery.

Therefore they must be made to realise that it is time now to wake up, to register, and to vote, so they can get rid of the bunch of nepotistic incompetents the ANC has put up to govern local government. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr L M GREEN: Deputy Speaker, there is widespread dissatisfaction with the lack of service delivery at local government level. This has been evident in countrywide, sometimes violent, demonstrations against incompetent or corrupt local government officials and councillors. However, to demonstrate is one thing; during elections the voter is given the opportunity to replace incompetent or corrupt councillors. Therefore it is imperative that our citizens register to vote in the local government elections.

One should not complain about service delivery if one does not, at the very least, register and cast a vote. Whilst the ACDP appreciates that there is a growing disillusionment with locally elected councillors due to incompetence, nepotism and corruption, such disillusionment should only increase the determination of voters to replace councillors and the parties they represent.

Not to register and then not to vote, as an expression of disapproval, should be the very last option. The ACDP therefore encourages every South African citizen to register and to ensure that they are registered in the correct ward. They will ensure that you, as a voter, will be able to exercise your God-given right to vote for the leaders you wish to at local government level. I thank you.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Adjunkspeaker, almal kla dat kiesers apaties is, én dat hulle nie gaan registreer nie. Die werklikheid is dat dit is as gevolg van politici en politieke partye soos die DA en die ANC . . . [Tussenwerpsels.] . . . wat oorloopwetgewing ondersteun dat kiesers nou vra: “Hoe kan ek stem vir ‘n kandidaat en die volgende jaar loop hy net oor na ‘n ander politieke party?” Dan kom dié partye en wys vinger na ander partye. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Die VF Plus wil vir die kiesers daarbuite sê: U kan sê u is klaar met die politiek, en u het die politiek gelos; die jammerte is net dat die politiek u nie los nie. Daarom vra ons u om op 3 September te gaan registreer, want al voel u nie dalk nou daarvoor om te gaan stem nie, wanneer stemdag kom, wil u dalk graag stem, maar as u nie geregistreer is nie, kan u nie stem nie. Daarom, registreer, en sorg dat u dan deur middel van u stem ook plaaslik - die regeringsvlak wat die naaste aan die kieser is - u stem kan uitbring, en stem vir daardie partye wat nie gaan oorloop na ander politieke partye nie, maar wat u belange sal behartig. Dankie, Adjunkspeaker. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Hon Deputy Speaker, everybody is complaining that voters are apathetic, and that they are not going to register. The truth is that it is because of political parties like the DA and the ANC… [Interjections]… that support floor crossing legislation that voters now ask: “How can I vote for a candidate and the following year he crosses the floor to another political party?” Then these parties come and point fingers to other parties. [Interjections.]

The FF Plus wants to tell the voters out there: You can say that you have finished with politics, and that you left politics; the problem is that politics do not leave you. That is why we ask you to register on 3 September, because even if you don’t feel like voting now, when election day comes you might want to vote, but if you are not registered you cannot vote. Therefore, register, and make sure that you are able to, by means of your vote, also cast your vote locally – the level of government which is closest to the voter, and vote for those parties who will not cross the floor to other parties, but who will look after your interests. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.]

Rre B E PULE: Motlotlegi Motlatsa-Sebui, go botlhokwa gore moagi mongwe le mongwe mo Aforika Borwa a ikwadisetse ditlhopho tsa puso selegae. Santlha, ke tshwanelo ya gagwe e a e neilweng ke molaotheo wa naga ya Aforika Borwa go tlhopha. Sabobedi, ke tshwanelo ya gagwe go neela lekoko kgotsa mokgatlho wa gagwe tetla ya go mo tsamaisetsa dilo tse di amang botshelo jwa gagwe jaaka ditirelo.

Ga go kitla go thusa Maaforika Borwa sepe go ngala ba sa tlhophe mme morago ba ngongoregele gore ga go na ditirelo. A ba ikwadise, ba tlhophe gore ba itse kwa ba tla lebang gona fa ba na le mathatha. Le fa go ntse jalo, rona UCDP, re rata go kgalemela ka bogale ba e reng ba tlhophilwe, ba bo ba sutlha ka difensetere ba matlhabaphefo leba kwa makokong a mangwe ba bidiwa ke sefadi jaaka ntša.

Re rotloetsa batho ba makoko a a farologaneng go ikwadisa le go tlhopha, ka gonne go siametse demokerasi ya Aforika Borwa, mme re kgalemela ba ba sasankang le makoko a mangwe fa go bulwa matlhabaphefo gore ba tlogele bogodu ka go utswa diboutu tsa batlhophi. Ba tlogele go nna bomalatswa- thipana le bomaora o tuka. Ke a leboga. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[Mr B E PULE: Hon Deputy Speaker, it is very important that every South African citizen registers for the local elections. Firstly, it is a right of every person to vote as enshrined in the Constitution of our country. Secondly, it is a right to give a party a vote as permission to administer things that affect the voter‘s life, such as delivery of services.

It will not help South Africans to boycott elections and thereafter complain about lack of services. Let them register and vote so that they know where to go when they experience problems. However, as the ACDP we would like to admonish those who cross the floor over to other parties during the window period.

We would like to encourage people from different political parties to register and vote because that is good for our democracy in South Africa. We would like to admonish those who cross over to other parties during the window period to stop stealing voters’ votes and being opportunists. Thank you.]

Mong M T LIKOTSI: Sephadi, PAC e kgothaletsa baahi bohle ba naha ya rona ho ingodisa bakeng sa dikgetho, mme ba kgethe PAC ha dikgetho di fihla. Mmuso o nehe mekgatlo ya dipolotiki tjhelete ho kgothaletsa batho dikgetho. Mekgatlo e fuwe tjhelete bakeng sa matsholo a dikgetho. Dikgetho tsena di tlamehile ho re tlisetsa makhanselara a ikemiseditseng ho sebeletsa setjhaba, ho ntlafatsa dibaka tsa bodulo.

Bakgethi ba ye dikgethong ka bongata, ho bea makhanselara a senang manyofonyofo le bobodu ho bomasepala. PAC ke mokgatlo o tshepehang, oo makhanselara a ona a sa kenang bobodung bo etsahalang ka hara naha. Baahi, ngodisang ka bongata bakeng sa dikgetho, le kgethe PAC bakeng sa ho fedisa tlala, bofutsana le boqitolo, le bobodu bo teng ka hara bomasepala. Ke a leboha. (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

[Mr M T LIKOTSI: Chief Whip, PAC urges all South African citizens to register for the coming elections, and to vote for the PAC on election day. The government must allocate funds to political parties to enable them to campaign for elections. We expect the elected councillors to be loyal, hard- working people willing to improve the living conditions of the people.

We implore the voters to turn up for elections in big numbers and to elect incorruptible councillors to municipalities. The Pan Africanist Congress is an honest party whose councillors are not involved in pervasive corruption in the country. We plead further with the electorate to register for elections in big numbers. They must vote for the PAC to eliminate poverty, treachery and corruption in municipalities. Thank you.]

Ms S RAJBALLY: Madam Deputy Speaker, just a while ago we were all engaged in massive campaigning for the national and provincial elections, which were proudly successful. The MF takes this opportunity to express to the South African citizenry the importance of voting in the local elections.

Local governments rest closer to the hearts of the people. They are national government’s ground view and attend to community needs. It is local government that interacts more on a personalised footing with the communities, addressing their needs and wants, and maintaining local service.

By registering on 3 September at your nearest voting station to vote in the local election you are seizing the opportunity to elect the best suited candidate to address your community’s needs. In so doing, you will be ensuring that the maintenance and development of your area is headed by an effective and efficient leadership that would excel at its duties.

Failure to register on 3 September and vote for the right person means failure to ensure that you are well looked-after in your community. Thank you.

Mrs Z A KOTA: Igama lamakhosikazi! [The name of women!]

HON MEMBERS: Malibongwe! [Let it be praised!]

Mrs Z A KOTA: Deputy Speaker, allow me to just respond to the DA. I think that they should stop moaning, because no matter how much they try to tarnish the image of the ANC, voters don’t have confidence in them. [Interjections.] Absolutely! Yes, you are right; we have taken the Western Cape through floor-crossing, but you must remember that your “swart gevaar” didn’t help you either. [Interjections.]

The ACDP? I’m not sure. You’re not listening to the programmes of our people. Dr Brigalia Bam stated clearly, on Asikhulume on Sunday, that the protests around the country are a positive sign that the people out there are very conscious of their destiny – it’s positive - and the ANC welcomes that. We want our structures to deal with those issues and to be involved in ward committees so that the committees themselves are able to solve those problems with the ANC.

Deputy Speaker, Ministers, comrades, colleagues and honoured guests, I greet you this afternoon, during this important debate that is taking place as we wind up August, the women’s month. It is for that reason that it would be fitting to remember some of the women who paid a supreme sacrifice so that South Africa could be what it is today, a prosperous democracy with a growing economy. These are Comrades Nonyamezelo Mxenge, who passed on 20 years ago; Comrade Ruth First, who fell in Mozambique; Jeanette and Kathryn Schoon, who fell in Angola; Nomkhosi Mini, who fell in a Lesotho raid; Coleen Williams, who fell in Athlone; Nomsa Mapongwana, who fell in Khayelitsha, to mention just a few.

As women we have committed ourselves to picking up those fallen spears in their memory, and we shall ensure that the ANC wins the coming local government elections.

We thank the ANC for committing itself to a 50% representation for women councillors in the local government election process. This shows the ANC’s continued leadership in affirming and empowering women. That is the reason we have a Deputy President who is a woman.

Our government has many capable women Ministers. Women in general in South Africa are very grateful and proud of the ANC’s stance. The ANC is also aware of and recognises the positive role played by women in their areas of deployment. It is true that to educate a woman is to educate a nation; to empower a woman economically is to empower a nation economically.

Our organisation is aware that women are realistically the ones who are the biggest consumers of municipal services. They are the ones who do the washing and ironing, and many of our households are female-headed.

It is critical, therefore, that women should participate actively in this sphere of government. It is important that many women come out and register, as they will be able to ensure that their voices are heard within municipalities.

Our approach is that service delivery at local level should be geared towards building communities. It is communities that should, through participation in ward committees, determine the priorities of budgets at local level. It is communities themselves that should continue to hold public representatives accountable as far as service delivery is concerned. Registering gives us an opportunity to participate in democratic processes and to be able to vote in the coming local government elections.

On 13 August 2005 I attended a service at J Z Zwane in Gugulethu, where the theme was: “You should take a stand”. This was a call by women for women to empower women and for women to actively take part in changing their lives for the better. These women, called “speakers”, were from social services, the health department, the economics department and the red door project, which is a finance department in our province.

Women wanted to hear about the opportunities that exist within government and want to grab such opportunities with both hands. They called on other women to continue brightening the corner where they are. Women must come forward and be counted. That is the reason I used the same platform to encourage them to register on 3 September, the registration day.

At the centre of speeding up service delivery has been the importance of intergovernmental relations and how these three spheres of government have been able to work together to fast-track delivery.

Corporate governance and intergovernmental relations in South Africa are reflected in chapter 3 of the Constitution, which determines a number of principles. Section 41(2) of the Constitution determines that Acts of Parliament must establish, promote and facilitate intergovernmental relations. As a result of this the government has formed a number of intergovernmental structures that promote and facilitate corporate governance and intergovernmental relations between the respective spheres.

These include the Presidential Co-ordinating Committee comprising the President, the Minister for Provincial and Local Government and the nine Premiers, and Ministers’ clusters, the directors-general’s cluster, that is Forsat, promote the integration of the programme.

In Parliament we have committees that are formed in terms of this cluster approach, including the study groups. What has been the core of these processes, particularly at local government level, has been the issue of the IDP, the integrated development planning, through which municipalities are able to plan and prioritise according to their budget.

The ANC government is calling upon communities to participate and influence these processes at ward committee level so that their voices can be heard at council level.

Delivery of basic services and the development of infrastructure have been high on the agenda of municipalities. The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry, Buyelwa Sonjica, has called for the strengthening of corporate governance to tackle water and sanitation backlogs. Her department has made progress in placing water services schemes with municipalities, where they belong.

The department is also working with the department of local government and municipalities, the MIG, to eradicate the bucket system. A total of R1,2 billion has been allocated for this through MIG. The Department of Housing, through the Breaking New Ground strategy, has intensified the building of houses for the poorest of the poor.

Minister Lindiwe Sisulu, through her leadership, has instructed provinces to come up with nine pilot projects of sustainable human settlement. The national pilot project, N2 Gateway, is expected to deliver 24 500 houses by the end of 2006. We have seen positive development in Cosmo City, Gauteng, where the rich and poor are poised to live together, with bank-financed houses ranging from R150 000 to R600 000, with 5 000 low-cost houses next to them. This is real integration. We have also seen that this is the success story of integrating our communities.

Recently, the Brickfields Development Project has been very positive. Opening that project, the President said that the Brickfields housing project is a tangible expression of how the worldwide phenomenon of decaying inner cities can, through sustainable urbanisation, be transformed into peaceful, better havens and friendly neighbourhoods.

The President went on to say that clearly this project is in line with the government’s strategy and is making an important contribution to the efforts of reversing apartheid spatial patterns along racial and class divisions. Undoubtedly, to truly realise the noble ideas of the Freedom Charter we need to move faster towards new cities where we are able to use housing to integrate our communities so that we should no longer have parts of our cities designated exclusively for the rich and others for the poor.

Although our Parliament and government have eradicated apartheid laws, there is still perpetuation of settlement patterns along racial lines, gender and class divisions, which is an obstacle to the objective of building a non-racial and non-sexist society. This we must bring to a speedy end.

To succeed in this task we have, amongst others, an urgent challenge to bring an end to the pro-rich housing development strategies that ensure that the best located land, which is close to all the best facilities, is always available to the rich; a situation in which the best land is allocated specifically to create gated communities and golf estates.

We welcome these comments by our President because they are in line with a settlement plan that is aimed at addressing these social ills. The Department of Social Services has been central in protecting the rights of the vulnerable groups.

The provision of social assistance to children is a case in point. By May 2004 we had been able to get more than four million children into the system. More than 7,9 million people have benefited from social grants.

In response to the issue of impact of HIV and Aids, the department implemented a home-based care community programme. The number of sites increased from six in 2001 to 400 in 2003. It has also been brought to our attention that the government has also increased its efforts in the area of early childhood development so that women can use these child-care projects for income-generation.

We welcome the Expanded Public Works Programme, which has created a lot of job opportunities for the unemployed at local level, particularly the new definition of the Expanded Public Works Programme, which includes home- based care, dog dipping, waste removal and recycling. These are opportunities created for poverty alleviation by our caring government.

Sibulela nakubo bonke abantu abasebenza ezigadini, njengakwiprojekthi ehlanganisa iidolophu nemimandla yasezilalini ephaya kwaLanga. Ezi ziinzame zokulwa indlala ukwenzela ukuba abantu bethu bakwazi ukuphuma baye kubhalisa besazi ukuba lo mbutho ngumbutho okhathalayo ngabantu. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[We are grateful to everyone who works with the garden project in Langa, a project that integrates both rural and urban development. This project is one of the means to alleviate poverty. People must acknowledge these efforts by the ANC-led government by registering to vote.]

All provinces are busy with growth and development strategies whose mandate is to assist with economic growth. The injection of R20 billion by Gauteng for infrastructure is commendable, and addresses the gap between the first and second economies.

Mabuyakhulu, the MEC in KwaZulu-Natal has injected . . .

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Mevrou die Adjunkspeaker, op in punt van orde: Ek wil net graag by u, Adjunkspeaker, weet of die agb spreker by die punt van registrasie bly, en of sy propaganda maak oor behuising en ander infrastruktuur vir die plaaslike verkiesings. [Gelag.][Hon Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I would just like to find out from you whether the hon speaker is keeping to the point of registration, or whether she is spreading propaganda on housing and other infrastructure for the local elections. [Laughter.]]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sit down, Mr Groenewald, that’s not a point of order. Continue, hon member.

Mrs Z A KOTA: I’m glad that you understand that it’s important that we motivate our people to go out and register because they understand that the services out there are for their benefit. If they go and register, they will understand exactly . . . [Interjections.] . . . They will register, whether you like it or not. They’re wasting my time, Deputy Speaker; let me ignore them.

In KwaZulu-Natal an MEC has forked out R1 billion to bail out municipalities to enable them to deliver basic services. The City of Cape Town’s growth rate is reflected as standing at four per cent and contributes to 11,2% of the GDP.

Our people have shown that they are confident and correct to trust our movement as a principal agent of change in our country that is genuinely committed to the objective of building a non-racial and non-sexist democratic South Africa.

This has been shown by the resounding mandate given freely, in big numbers, during the 2000 and 2004 elections. The ANC won 68% of municipal councils in 2000. People’s own experience in the past 11 years of our freedom relating to what has been achieved in this regard confirms that their confidence in the ANC is not misplaced.

Kule mpelaveki, ngomhla wesi-3 kuSeptemba, iya kuba ilithuba lokuba abahlali baye kubhalisa, baqiniseke ukuba amagama abo akhona kuluhlu lwabavoti. Ziya kube zivuliwe zonke iindawo zokubhalisa. Hamba uye kuzijonga kolwaa luhlu lunamagama abavoti, ukhangele ukuba igama lakho likho na. Ukuba alikho, nceda ubhalise.

Kufuneka uphathe incwadi-sazisi yakho enebhakhowudi. Ukuba awunayo loo ncwadi-sazisi, yenza isiqinisekiso sethutyana. Ungabhalisa nangaso. Lo rhulumente ngurhulumente ojongene neemfuno zabahlali. Kubalulekile ukuba ube nenxaxheba, ulisebenzise eli thuba. Kananjalo, sibulela bonke abantu abathe gqolo besebenzisana norhulumente, benceda abantu ekuhlaleni ngeendlela ngeendlela. Yiyo loo nto sisithi ukwanda kwaliwa ngumthakathi. Sifuna ukuba sibe nabahlali abakhathalayo ngezinto zokuhlala. Intle inkathalo kwanento yokuba abantu basebenzisane norhulumente bephucula iindawo zokuhlala apha eMzantsi Afrika.

Akukho kubuya ngamva. Urhulumente okhokelwa yi-ANC kuninzi akwenzileyo, njengokuba besenditshilo. Kambe siyazi ukuba kusekuninzi ekufuneka sikwenzile ukugutyula amabibi ukuze sikwazi ukufezekisa iimfuno zoMqulu weNkululeko.

Urhulumente we-ANC uyakhathala ngabantu. Siphumile kwaFaro kodwa asikafiki eZweni leDinga. Siya kufika kulo ukuba sibambene ngezandla nabantu bethu. Ukwanda kwaliwa ngumthakathi kodwa ngalo lonke ixesha siya komelezwa kukuba abantu baye kumvotela lo rhulumente we-ANC ngobuninzi babo, ekucacileyo ukuba bamthembile njengorhulumente omele iimfuno zabo.

Masibambisane naye nangalo mzuzu wonyulo loomasipala ngoba nguye onemigaqo- nkqubo ejonge ukuphucula abantu abahluphekileyo. Lo rhulumente ikwanguye okhathalayo nobonisa igalelo loomama emzabalazweni. Liyabonakala igalelo loomama emzabalazweni. Siyayibona indlela urhulumente anyule ngayo amakhosikazi.

Ngokubhekisele koorhulumente bezekhaya, urhulumente uthi inani labagqatswa abangoomama liza kuba ngama-50 ekhulwini. Boomama, eli lithuba lokuba siphume sisonke, sibhinq’ omfutshane, ngoba lithuba lokuba sigxothe ikati eziko. Eli gcuntswana limana libhontsholoza apha ecaleni kwam akufunekanga lifumane nantwana.

Masiye kubhalisa abantu. I-DA yona ayisoze ikhothe naphantsi. Enkosi. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[This weekend, 3 September, would be an opportunity to register to vote as well as to check one’s name against the voters’ roll. All stations for registration will be opened. If your name is not on the voters’ roll, please register.

Bring your barcoded identity book. If someone does not have one, she or he must bring a temporary ID. This government takes care of its people. Therefore it is important to take part and use this opportunity.

We thank everyone who constantly helped government by providing different kinds of services to communities. We are grateful. We want people who care about our communities. Efforts made by people trying to improve the living conditions of people of South Africa are appreciated.

There is not turning back. What has been accomplished by the ANC–led government is overwhelming. Nevertheless, there is a lot that needs to be put right to achieve the objectives of the Freedom Charter.

The ANC–led government cares about people. We left Egypt, Pharaoh’s place, but we are not yet at the Promised Land, Canaan. We will reach Canaan only if we are one. We are grateful but we will be stronger if people vote for the ANC–led government, as they have already showed their trust.

Let us hold each other’s hands during this time of municipal elections, as this is the government with the policies to develop poverty-stricken communities. It is this government that cares about people and that reveals the undying efforts of women in the struggle for democracy. Their efforts are acknowledged. We do observe how many women are elected in government.

Government is committed to increase the number of women representation in local government by 50 %. This is the opportunity for women to participate in their numbers. It is the time to alleviate poverty in communities. The crying minority must not get any opportunity. Let us go and register. The DA will not get any votes. Thank you. [Applause.]]

Debate concluded.


                       (Second Reading debate)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Chair, hon members, the Defence Special Account Act, Act 6 of 1974 – the principal Act – refers to certain Acts of Parliament which have been substituted by the Public Audit Act, Act 25 of 2004, the Public Finance Management Act, Act 1 of 1999, the Armaments Corporation of South Africa, Limited Act, Act 51 of 2003, and the Defence Act, Act 42 of 2002.

The principal Act also refers to certain procedures which are no longer applicable, for example the procedure for the accounting officer of the Department of Defence to enter into commitments for expenditure from the Defence Special Account, referred to in section 1A(1) of the principal Act, is no longer necessary under the Public Finance Management Act of 1999.

The Defence Special Account Amendment Bill of 2005 seeks to bring the principal Act in line with current legislation by replacing or removing the said obsolete references and procedures. I therefore move that this House accept this amendment, as mentioned and indicated above. I thank you. [Applause.]

Dr G W KOORNHOF: Madam Chairperson, Deputy Minister of Defence, Ministers, comrades and colleagues, the Defence Special Account Bill, which we are amending here today in this House, differs substantially from previous Acts promulgated in 1952 and 1974. Those Acts made provision for Armscor as a procurement agency to supply the SADF with armaments to suppress our own people.

Since our first democratic elections in 1994, this government, in partnership with Armscor, the defence industry and the private sector has started to liberate South Africa and Africa from racial and colonial oppression. This represents a remarkable turnaround in approach within one generation to the benefit of our people and our continent. The importance of the Defence Special Account arises from the need to acquire defence material for military use or material which conforms to military specifications.

The need may arise to enter into government-to-government contracts with payment of scheduled costs influenced by fluctuating exchange rates. There may also be a need to defray expenditure where the procurement of items is subjected to extended and uncertain lead times or where we need strategic defence capabilities. It is important to realise that the acquisition of defence material takes place according to a proper acquisition process before funds can be utilised from this account.

Spesifieke veranderinge in hierdie wysigingswetsontwerp sluit in opgedateerde terminologie, dit wil sê om dit op datum te bring met ander bestaande wette, soos die verwysing na die Nasionale Tesourie in plaas van die voormalige Departement van Staatsbesteding.

Ander wysigings sluit in: die verwysings na nuwe wette - waarna die Adjunkminister verwys het – in die Wetboek wat spesifiek nà 1999 goedgekeur is, en wat vorige wetgewing vervang het. Dit sluit in: die bekende Wet op Openbare Finansiële Bestuur, die Wet op Verdediging, die Wet op Krygkor en die Wet op Openbare Oudit. Laastens is hierdie wysigingswetsontwerp meer geslagsvriendelik gemaak, met verskeie klousules wat nou verwys na manlik en vroulik, byvoorbeeld: hom/haar en hy/sy.

’n Belangrike punt om op te let is dat hierdie spesiale verdedigingsrekening jaarliks deur die Ouditeur-Generaal van Suid-Afrika geoudit word. Vir die afgelope drie jaar het die Ouditeur-Generaal ongekwalifiseerde verslae oor hierdie rekening ter tafel gelê. Sedert 1 April 2003 word hierdie rekening as ’n afsonderlike betaalmeesterrekening bedryf met voldoende interne beheer.

Hierdie verslae van die Ouditeur-Generaal toon aan dat hierdie rekening goed bestuur word, en dat ons ons langtermynverpligtinge in hierdie land kan nakom.

Die grootste gedeelte van die spesiale verdedigingsrekening se geouditeerde uitgawes, naamlik R6,5 miljard, is aangegaan deur Krygkor, terwyl die balans van R280 miljoen aangegaan is deur die Departement van Verdediging. Die hoof-uitvoerende beampte van Krygkor, mnr Sipho Thomo, en die Sekretaris van Verdediging, mnr January Masilela, is onderskeidelik verantwoordbaar ten opsigte van hierdie uitgawes. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Specific amendments in this Bill include updated terminology, that is to say amendments to bring it up to date with other existing legislation, such as the reference to the National Treasury, instead of the former Department of State Expenditure.

Other amendments include references to new Acts – to which the Deputy Minister has referred – on the statute book, specifically Acts passed after 1999, and which have replaced previous legislation. These include the well- known Public Finance Management Act, the Defence Act, the Armscor Act and the Public Audit Act. Lastly, this Amendment Bill has been made more gender- sensitive, with several clauses now referring to the masculine and feminine form, for instance him/her and he/she.

An important point to note is that this Defence Special Account is audited annually by the South African Auditor-General. For the past three years the Auditor-General tabled unqualified reports on this account. Since 1 April 2003, this account is being managed as a separate paymaster’s account, with adequate internal controls.

The Auditor-General’s reports indicate that this account is being managed well, and that we are capable of meeting our long-term obligations in this country.

The greater part of the Defence Special Account’s audited expenses, namely R6,5 billion, was incurred by Armscor, while the balance of R280 million was incurred by the Department of Defence. Armscor’s chief executive officer, Mr Sipho Thomo, and the Secretary of Defence, Mr January Masilela, are respectively accountable for these expenses.]

The public in general and public representatives in particular should realise the importance of the Defence Special Account for the Department of Defence. I want to emphasise three points: firstly, the availability of appropriate defence material for the SANDF to carry out its strategic objectives, namely to enhance and maintain comprehensive defence capabilities; to promote peace, security and stability in the region and on the continent; and to support the people of South Africa.

Secondly, in order to obtain such optimal defence material, a process of defence material acquisition is followed with the necessary scrutiny and oversight by the Auditor-General, by Parliament and by the executive. Thirdly, the acquisition of defence material is guided by the Defence White Paper where the need to maintain and improve our defence capabilities is acknowledged within budgetary constraints.

In this regard, we as government have entered into numerous memoranda of understanding, defence agreements, pacts and treaties. There is also government support for international ventures, that is, government-to- government agreements.

In conclusion, I can say without risk of contradiction from members of our Defence committee that we have full confidence in the Department of Defence and in particular in the SANDF to execute their mandate, including the many challenges they face.

Secondly, there is effective civil oversight by, amongst others, the Portfolio Committee on Defence over the Department of Defence and the SANDF through regular hearings; visits to bases and units by the committee; the scrutinisation of the budget; the annual reports; the business plan and other plans; and regular interaction with the public entity – the only public entity within this department - Armscor. And our committee had a long session with Armscor and its chief executive officer only this morning. Thirdly, our men and women in uniform are professional people, inspired by the loyalty and love for our beautiful country and its people, and committed to defending our democracy and its values.

Ons nasionale Weermag het ’n kontrak met die mense vir ’n beter Suid-Afrika en ’n beter wêreld. Die ANC steun hierdie wysigingswetsontwerp. Ek dank u. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Our national Defence Force has a contract with the people for a better South Africa and for a better world. The ANC supports this amending Bill. I thank you. [Applause!]]

Adv H C SCHMIDT: Madam Chairperson, the Defence Special Account Act was accepted in Parliament during 1974 at the height of the apartheid government regime and surprisingly still exists today. This is so despite indications by the government that it is in favour of transparency and accountability within a democratic state.

This special account is utilised for expenditure relating to the procurement of armament; the purchase of military equipment; the procurement of items subjected to extended and uncertain lead times and for sensitive activities. In addition thereto, and as you all know, it is also used for the purchase of strategic defence capabilities and weapon systems, such as the notorious arms deal.

This amending Bill intends to bring the Act in line with the requirements laid down in the Public Finance Management Act. These amendments relate to amending the titles of certain Acts, which have been repealed, as well as removing processes that are no longer valid in terms of the PFMA.

One of these procedures is for the accounting officer of the Department of Defence to enter into commitments with the prior approval of the Minister of Finance for expenditure from the defence special account, which is no longer necessary in terms of the PFMA.

The importance of this Act is reflected in the fact that this account deals with a constantly increasing amount of money - at the current moment approximately 40% or an estimated R9,3 billion of the defence budget of R22,4 billion.

It is, however, unfortunate that, although the Auditor-General - as has been mentioned earlier this afternoon - has access to this account for purposes of financial accounting, Parliament’s role of holding the executive to account is severely curtailed due to the secrecy of the amounts and financing deals of purchases made in terms of this account.

Parliament has experienced first-hand knowledge of the above due to the secrecy and incomplete answers relating to the infamous arms deal issue, which has to date not yet been satisfactorily concluded. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Sihlalo neNdlu ehloniphekile, bahlonishwa, lo Mthethosivivinywa olapha phambi kwethu uqoqa okwakwenziwe ngeminyaka yawo-

  1. Wenza isimo sokuba umuntu okunguyena ofanele agade izimali kube uyena obikayo lapha ePhalamende ukuthi izimali zisebenze kanjani.

Bekuthi-ke njalo uma ngabe kuthengwa izimpahla zokubhekela izwe, ezokuvikela izwe nezempi, kusayine abantu abaningi abahlukene. Kodwa, ngenxa yokuba khona komthetho wezimali obizwa nge-Public Finance Management Act, okuyiwona oshoyo ukuthi ubani okufuneka aqondane nezimali, lokho kwenze ukuthi uNobhala wezokuVikela kube uyena muntu oqondene ngqo nokuthi achaze lapha ePhalamende ukuthi izimali zisebenze kanjani.

Ngakho-ke lo mugqa owodwa nje wale Special Defence Account ngowokulungisa leso simo ukuze kungabi khona abantu abaningi abenza into abayithandayo kodwa abe munye umuntu ozoqondana nokubika lapha ePhalamende nasekomidini eligadayo ukuthi izimali zisebenza kahle yini.

Sithemba ukuthi njengoba uNobhala enikwe leli gunya, nomhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe uzombheka ukuze konke okwenziwayo kuhambe kuqonde kuthi ngqo. Siyethemba ukuthi laba abanye abakade besayina ngeke besenza lutho oluthe phecelezi olubheke eceleni ngoba abazukulithola igunya . . . (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[Chairperson, hon House and hon members, the Bill tabled here summarise what was done in 1974. It makes the person responsible for finance to be the only one accountable to Parliament on how the money was spent.

Previously, when there were defence systems to be acquired, defence weapons and warfare, many different people would sign the procurement documents. However, because of the Public Management Act, which states who should be accountable, that has led to the Secretary of Defence being the sole signatory, and he is directly accountable to Parliament.

Therefore, this insertion in the Special Defence Account is for rectifying that, so that people will not do what they like but to have one person accountable to Parliament and the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

We hope that as the Secretary has been granted this authority, the hon Minister will monitor the Secretary, to see to it that everything is done accordingly. We also hope that those who used to sign procurement documents will not do anything untoward because they won’t have authority.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member!

Mr V B NDLOVU: I still have twenty seconds. The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I regret to inform you that your time has expired. I have given you 27 extra seconds.

Mr V B NDLOVU: Really? [Laughter.] Thank you.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, ’n minuut is maar kort. Die wysingswetsontwerp ter tafel wat onder bespreking is, is eintlik ’n tegniese wet in die opsig dat die wet verwys na ou wette wat intussen verander is. Hierdie spesifieke wysigingswetsontwerp stel dit dan nou net reg sodat dit na die korrekte wette verwys. Dit is al wat hierdie wysingingswetsontwerp ter sprake bring. Die VF Plus sal dit steun.

Ek deel egter nie die optimisme van my kollega, die agb dr Gerhard Koornhof, oor die beheer oor hierdie spesiale verdedigingsrekening nie. Dit is ongelukkig so dat die Parlement en die portefeuljekomitee wel ’n toesighoudende rol speel oor die Nasionale Weermag in sy geheel, maar ons het nie insae in hierdie spesiale verdedigingsrekening nie, en miskien moet ons gaan kyk na wetgewing om ook dít te verseker. Dan sal die portefeuljekomitee ’n behoorlike rol kan speel om seker te maak dat die spesiale verdedigingsrekening korrek aangewend word vir die doel waarvoor dit bedoel is. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, a minute is quite short. The tabled Amendment Bill being debated is actually a technical Act in that it refers to past Acts that have already been amended. This specific Amendment Bill now rectifies that so that it refers to the correct Acts. That is all that this Amendment Bill raises. The FF Plus will support that.

However, I do not share the optimism of my colleague, the hon Dr Gerhard Koornhof regarding the control over this Special Defence Account. Unfortunately it is so that Parliament and the portfolio committee do indeed play a supervisory role over the National Defence Force in its entirety, but we are unable to scrutinise this Special Defence Account and perhaps we should take a look at legislation to ensure that as well. Then the portfolio committee will be able to play a proper role to ensure that the Special Defence Account is used correctly for its intended purpose.]

Ms S RAJBALLY: Madam Chair, the MF acknowledges the introduction of this Bill by the hon Minister of Defence on 19 May 2005. We note that the principal Act, namely the Defence Special Account Act of 1974, is out of date in terms of the procedures it contains, and Acts which it refers to have been substituted.

The Defence Special Account Amendment Bill clearly brings the principal Act in line with current legislation and procedures. The MF strongly supports such amendments. We take this opportunity to briefly applaud our superb Defence Force and its efforts and sacrifices made, not only in South Africa but on the entire African continent.

The safety of all South Africans is secured by these heroes and heroines who so courageously put their lives on the line for this country. The MF supports the Defence Special Account Amendment Bill. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Chair, I want to thank all the parties who supported this amendment. It is encouraging that people understand the importance of the Department of Defence, especially people like Baba Ndlovu.

It is a pity that some members, especially in the DA, in spite of the fact that they supported the Bill, still have the guts to come and vent hot air here. Mr Schmidt knows, as an MP and as a member of the Committee on Defence, that he is entitled to see and scrutinise the Special Defence Account. He can even ask the Minister or the Ministry for the briefing. He knows that, but he comes here and complains, as usual. I now understand why the voters of South Africa have no confidence in the DA. [Interjections.]

I thank all members for supporting the amending.

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.


  (Consideration of Report of Portfolio Committee on Defence Bill)

There was no debate.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Chair, I move that the Report be noted.

Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly noted.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I’m looking for a speakers’ list, hon members.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Chair, I understand your confusion. I feel sorry for you. If you have to come into contact with the members of the DA from time to time, you are bound to be contaminated with their confusion. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: Madam Chair, I’m going to sort him out, don’t worry.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms S-C Botha): Order, please!

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Before the House is the Armaments Corporation of South Africa, Limited Amendment Bill. This Bill seeks to remove the Chief of the SA National Defence Force and the Secretary for Defence from the board of directors of Armscor.

When Cabinet approved the introduction of the Armaments Corporation of South Africa, Limited Bill in Parliament in 2003 it indicated that the Chief of the SA National Defence Force should not sit on the board of directors of the corporation.

The reason was that membership of the board by the Chief of the SANDF could constitute a potential conflict of interests. Such a conflict would arise from the fact that the Chief would have been part of the decision to determine the requirements of the SANDF, as well as being part of the decision to determine procurement and acquisition, and that is which supplier should provide goods and services.

Similarly, the inclusion of the Secretary for Defence on the board of directors of Armscor raises a potential conflict of interests in view of the supporting role that he or she plays as head of the department towards the Minister in exercising political oversight over Armscor.

As head of the department and accounting officer, the Secretary for Defence is responsible for ensuring compliance with prescribed roles and regulations for acquisition purposes. As head of the department also sitting on the Armscor board, he or she cannot therefore be expected to account for ensuring effective and efficient utilisation of transferred funds or any financial assistance rendered to Armscor, and also be accountable in terms of his or her membership to the board at the same institution. This will not enable him or her to exercise his or her judgment objectively and independently, as he or she would be referee and player at the same time.

Madam Speaker, Madam Chairperson . . . [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): You’re also confused, Minister.

Mr M J ELLIS: He’s very easily confused; he’s from the ANC.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: It is within this context that I introduce the Armaments Corporation of South Africa, Limited Amendment Bill for approval by the House. I hope that the opposition parties will support the approval by the House of this Bill, as this is testimony that the ANC-led government is serious about ensuring good governance in and between all state structures. I thank you.

Prof A K ASMAL: Madam Chairperson, Ministers, ladies and gentlemen and comrades, this is a very short Bill, possibly the shortest Bill before this House since 1994, because it comprises one section. But it is enormously important, because there are layers and layers of meaning in this Bill, which I will bring to your attention.

It also, of course, as part of the commitment of the ANC, ensures that where there are issues that arise, where conflict of interests may arise, they are dealt with legislatively.

The parent Act is that of 2003. The Minister of Defence asked the President not to bring it into force, because there was this one particular obstructive clause that the Minister wished to take out. So before I deal with this amending Bill may I just bring to your attention, particularly in so far as the younger members of this House are concerned, the procurement process within the Department of Defence.

You see, Armscor was established in terms of the Armaments Development and Production Act of 1968. Armscor was part of the sanctions-busting regime of the South African apartheid forces. It was corrupt; there was no transparency; it confused its role as procurer, manufacturer, meddler, intervener, and sometimes with nefarious purposes too.

It was an evil time because a combination of procurement and manufacture was irresistible for purposes of corruption. So we departed from that period, because this Act was enormously important, and introduced the Armaments Corporation of South Africa, Limited Amendment Bill of 2003, which repealed all the Armscor legislation from 1968 onwards, and that is a clean-slate approach.

Why didn’t the Minister then ask the President to bring it into force? We have to look at the elaborate system of evaluating all capital acquisition projects in armaments through the armaments acquisition system.

The ultimate political authority, responsibility for acquisition, is vested in the Minister of Defence. The Secretary for Defence, as the accounting officer of the Department of Defence, will perform those functions and duties as laid down in the Act and in the Public Finance Management Act.

There is a two-page statement as to how you acquire things. Basically, it is the Chief of the Defence Staff, in consultation with colleagues, who produce the document and approach as to what is to be acquired by our Defence Force. The acquisition requirements, the funding and the procurement are all laid down there.

It is a very complex and very important system to overcome the previously closed, obscure and occluded system that we had in South Africa. This is in line with standard practice in most democratic countries. There is also open competition.

The authorisation goes through the committees and the management forums that are set up. That is the reason why when the Minister had Parliament pass the 2003 Act, he was very anxious about this because Armscor is the primary acquisition agent of the Department of Defence for military equipment required exclusively for military purposes.

In fact, the Act lays down that the Department of Defence cannot participate in any way as far as the direct acquisition is concerned. It is part of that process. Armscor, therefore, works in relation to the legislation laid down.

Now, the President has not brought it into force for the simple reason that the Department of Defence recognised that the Chief of Defence Staff could not be a member of the board of Armscor for the reasons that I will expand on, which the Deputy Minister has given quite clearly.

If the Chief of the Defence Staff initiates an acquisition process, he or she cannot deliver what we wish for. If we have a Deputy President who is a woman we might soon have a Chief of Defence Staff who is a woman. Give these young people time. [Laughter.] He or she cannot be party to the actual ordering of the material; it’s inconsistent and incompatible. In some countries, by the way, the Chief of the Defence Staff runs the whole system and there is no openness or transparency.

So the Minister is introducing an amendment, which came through the Cabinet to the committee. At the Cabinet decision - I am coming to the committee - it transpired that the Minister recognised that the Secretary for Defence was a member of the Armscor board and that would then give rise, to serious incompatibilities in function.

Although this is a one-line Bill, the committee spent a considerable amount of time testing the ground, as it were, asking the department to come and give us good reasons as to why both the Chief of Staff and the Secretary for Defence should not be on this. So I said that it may seem a very simple one-section Bill, but, in fact, it has enormous implications, and the Minister delayed implementation of the Act for this very purpose, because they could not be ex-officio members. So, because of the conflict of interests in the mind of the Minister, both of them should therefore be removed.

After our deliberations the committee unanimously proposes to the NA that the provision in section 6 of the 2003 Act should now be excised, should now be removed. I think we should take particular care since these acquisitions possibly, as has been said, take up 40% of the budget of the department. There should be absolute clarity about their respective roles.

Then I say that Armscor’s role is to be looked at in the context of what the law lays down. Armscor gets a grant of more than R300 million from the department. Quite clearly the view is emerging in Cabinet and elsewhere that Armscor should not have to rely on the government grant, but that it should be self-sufficient in its operations.

So the transfer payment of R350 million is an important factor and therefore we have to evaluate what Armscor does in relation to the subsidy it gets from the government. Other options have to be looked at as to whether, as in other countries, Armscor should not, first of all, operate purely on business principles and have a contract with the department for acquisition purposes. There has to be a service level agreement that is laid down in the Act. There has to be a service level agreement with the department. That is one option.

The second option is that Armscor could be reincorporated back into the Department of Defence and function, as in many countries, as a specialist procurement unit in the department, under the control of the Minister of Defence, with the same degree of openness and transparency.

This will result, of course, in enormous savings as the Department of Defence will no longer pay the transfer payment of more than R300 million and, of course, save the department the rent it pays to Armscor of nearly R40 million.

These are issues that the department can look at because they are restructuring the arrangements, and I understand that since December last year Cabinet has set up a committee of Ministers to look at the whole issue of the arms industry and all the other issues associated with it. This could be a factor to be fed into such an investigation.

Of course, the committee has no views on this as it is merely expanding on the discussions we had this morning when we looked at the Armscor annual report - and a most stimulating discussion we had there. We were looking at what Armscor has undertaken to provide to the department as far as deliverables are concerned - astonishing word this, much better than “delivery”, by the way - in the contract with the department.

Can I say, therefore, that the new Armaments Corporation of South Africa, Limited Act of 2003 and the amendment before you close the book on a rather horrendous past. They get rid of the past legacy and perceptions that procurement processes were flawed. This is especially true when large commitments are made for requirements that may arguably be sensitive.

The Deputy Minister is right, as a committee we will be able to get information on any issue from the department and from the Minister. There are no closed doors, as we learnt, for example, when we had the discussion on the preparedness of the Defence Force. The role of Armscor has changed dramatically because the world has changed as far as global involvement in arms procurement is concerned.

With the establishment of Denel and its restructuring by the new chief executive officer, it is an opportune moment to look at the question of what the old baggage of Armscor was and to what extent the present role and name change to the defence procurement agency clearly acknowledges its procurement function of the state.

The portfolio committee is grateful to the department for its co-operation in the discussion of this Bill. I thank the members of the committee for looking at this very important element. Therefore, on behalf of the committee, I commend this measure to this House. Thank you, Madam Chairperson. [Applause.]

Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: Madam Chairperson, the House has already heard about the purpose this amendment seeks to achieve.

Just a few observations: When Cabinet approved the introduction of the Armaments Corporation of South Africa, Limited Amendment Bill into Parliament in 2003, it also indicated that the Chief of the SANDF should not sit on the Board, and for valid reasons.

The Bill was, however, passed – that’s what we heard - with the Chief remaining as a member of the Board of Directors. We can only wonder why the House did not seriously take into account the recommendations of the Cabinet at that time. This Bill now seeks to amend the Act by removing the Chief and the Secretary for Defence on the very same grounds in order to address the concern of the potential conflict of interests.

Armscor is the procurement arm for the DoD and obviously the SANDF. Let me remind the House that, in terms of the Bill, the objectives of the corporation are to meet the defence material requirements of the department effectively, efficiently and economically. It must do so by adhering to the accepted corporate governance principles, maintaining fairness, transparency, accountability and lawfulness. Hence if Armscor is to fulfil its mandate, as expressed in the Bill, it will have to avoid the many pitfalls such as experienced in the controversial arms deals.

Furthermore, in June this year we expressed our concern at the sale of helicopter spare parts by Armscor to the Zimbabwean Air Force, which we found to be morally outrageous. Armscor’s role during the apartheid era is well documented, as we heard from our hon chairperson as he described it. Surely, under our new democratic order and political dispensation, one would expect an Armscor different from its predecessors. Therefore under no condition must Armscor be forced to implement political decisions of the ruling party.

In conclusion, it is sad that Armscor had no visible role to play in a major acquisition such as the A400M aircraft, which the Minister of Defence referred to as a “unique acquisition”. Unique indeed it is, and the silence on the part of Armscor is amazing indeed. Thank you, Madam Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Deputy Chair, hon Minister and the House, since Armscor is the buying arm of the SANDF, the Chief of the Defence Force and the Secretary for Defence cannot sit on its Board because that would constitute a conflict of interests. There cannot be a seller and a buyer at the same time. And there cannot be a referee and a player at the same time.

The 41st line amendment of this Bill emphasises the point that we are taking out, for the second time now, the Secretary for Defence, because he is the chief executive officer, and cannot sit on the Board of Directors and decide what to buy and when to buy when he is actually the one who is going to pay at the end of the day.

Therefore the amendment that was effected before with regard to the Chief of the SA Army and now with the Secretary for Defence is intertwined - combining those two officers not to be members of the Board. We ask this House to accept that, because it is a principled decision that is going to wipe out the decision-makers not to make them to pay for what they think is correct, but to pay for the needs of the country. Thank you, Madam Deputy Chair. [Applause.]

Mr S B NTULI: Chairperson, Deputy Minister and other Ministers and Deputy Ministers present, hon members and members of the public in the gallery, Armscor was formed on 1 April 1977 from the amalgamation of the then SA Armaments Board and the Armaments Development Corporation. Its mission then was to supply the then SA Defence Force with its material requirements.

The then Armscor and the current Armscor are quite different. Let me just extrapolate from its mission of today. Its mission is to meet the acquisition, maintenance and disposal needs of the Department of Defence and other clients in terms of the defence material, related products and services.

As members are aware, we are also part of the signatories to the Ottawa Convention that deals with disposal needs – environment - part of the concern is that the Defence Force can no longer throw its remaining material or unused material into our seawaters because that would be a contravention of the law. This is what the Armaments Corporation South Africa, Limited Act is also stating and this makes the difference between how Armscor looked like yesterday and how it looks today.

Furthermore, today’s Armscor under the SA National Defence Force is quite a different Armscor. It is different because this one is transparent, accountable and has to comply with democratic values by doing the following: firstly, Armscor must be audited by the Auditor-General annually; secondly, its accountability is judged in compliance with the Public Finance Management Act; and thirdly, Armscor must comply with democratic values. For instance, Armscor product sales and services are subjected to control and regulated by the National Conventional Arms Control Committee. In other words, Armscor is restricted - we can no longer sell to countries with no culture of respect for human rights, and that do not respect human rights in their own countries. This is part of what the Act actually states. [Applause.]

Among other things, today’s Armscor is the one that is also trying to propel the democratic values forward in a defence environment. Hence we are saying today that we are effecting the amendments to the Arms Act by removing the Chief of Defence, as well as the Secretary for Defence, for the reasons that have already been stated.

As you have heard from my colleagues, particularly the Chairperson of the Defence Committee, the removal of the Chief of Defence and Secretary is aimed at addressing the possibility of conflict of interests that may arise, as one will be a referee and a player when looking at the Chief of Defence, but when we look at the Secretary for Defence he himself is actually the accounting officer in the Department of Defence. Therefore he has to oversee and account for Armscor as well.

This we do in an effort to pursue good corporate governance in alignment with our PFMA. Therefore from the Portfolio Committee of Defence, particularly the ANC, we call upon the House to support us in this amendment. Thank you, Madam Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, ter aanvang wil ek sê die VF Plus ondersteun hierdie Wysigingsontwerp. Dit is te verstand dat die Hoof van die Weermag en die Sekretaris van Verdediging nie op die direksie van Krygkor sit nie. Ek wil ook vandag vir u sê dat as ons Krygkor beoordeel, moet ons hom beoordeel in die konteks van die tyd toe hy ontstaan het.

Krygkor is in die lewe geroep om die destydse wapenboikot teen Suid-Afrika teen te werk. En ek wil vandag vir u en die agb lede sê Krygkor het hom tóé met onderskeiding van sy taak gekwyt, dermante dat van die voorste wapentuie in die wêreld daardeur ontwikkel is, en wat vandag nog tot voordeel van Suid-Afrika aangewend word, soos die G5- en G6-kanonne wat nog steeds van die kanonne is wat die verste reikafstand in die wêreld het.

Ek wil vandag vir u sê ek was feitlik tien jaar ‘n werknemer van Krygkor. Ek vra nie verskoning daarvoor nie; ek is baie trots daarop en ek sal altyd daarop trots wees. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, at the outset I want to say that the FF Plus supports this Bill. It is understandable that the Chief of the Defence Force and the Secretary of Defence cannot be members of the board of directors of Armscor.

I also want to say to you today that if we evaluate Armscor, we should evaluate it in the context of the time in which it was established. Armscor was established to counteract the arms boycott against South Africa at the time. And I want to tell you and hon members that at that stage Armscor acquitted itself excellently of its task, to such an extent that some of the top armaments in the world were developed in the process. Some are still used to the benefit of South Africa today, such as the G5 and G6 guns, still some of the guns with the longest range in the wold.

I want to say to you today that I was an employee of Armscor for almost ten years. I do not apologise for it; I am very proud of it, and shall always be. I thank you.]

Ms S RAJBALLY: Chair, as introduced by the Minister of Defence in the House in May 2005, the MF notes this Bill primarily serves to amend the Armament Corporation of South Africa, Limited Act of 2003.

We acknowledge that the Bill basically caters to bringing into being the Armaments Corporation of South Africa, as well as its function, accountability and finances. In terms of the amending Bill, we note the removal of the Secretary for Defence and Chief of the SA National Defence Force as members of the board of directors of the corporation due to the potential conflict of interests.

We further note that this was proposed when the Bill was first introduced in 2003, but they were nevertheless on the board added. If the precaution was adhered to then it would not have been necessary to reintroduce it again. However, the amendments are wise, even though late.

All respect is paid to the above authorities on such amendments. The MF supports the the Armament Corporation of South African, Limited Amendment Bill. Thank you.

Mr M S BOOI: Madam Chairperson, our chairperson and the Deputy Minster have already eloquently explained the nature of the Bill, and what role it is supposed to play, but there are a few other things that we should always continue clarifying, especially when you deal with the opposition. Even if you want to be positive, you should always help them to achieve the goals and the things that they don’t understand.

The trends and in the manner in which we are moving forward, and the progress that we are making with Defence, as a department, as Armscor becomes part of Defence, are helping, as hon Ntuli has already outlined, the vision, maintenance, and capacity-building of Defence. But, crucially to us, what does this type of decision imply? For the ANC this says that the tenets of the Constitution are being it upheld, you are continually emphasising opening up Defence, the issues of transparency. If you do not do that, the Defence of the old, which was in the apartheid era, is totally closed up the public. Nobody knew what was happening within that department, but here with this progress that we are making, and with the way that we are beginning to open up Armscor, it means that we are saying that we are complying with the Constitution, and besides complying we are not afraid of the public.

The way we spend the public’s money, we say to the public: Have an inside look; we do not want to put a stop to that. You remove the Secretary for Defence, and you remove the Chief of the SANDF, so that they are able to see what exactly is going on.

That is what should be appreciated by South Africans, and that is what South Africans have always been calling upon us to do. So, when you say to us ``you are dealing with a notorious arms deal’’, we are shocked. We wonder about this, because those of us who deal with Defence are looking at the progress that has been made since we have been in government the past ten years.

You look at the contribution that the strategic package has made to improve the capacity of the Defence Force. It is not the Defence Force, in the sense of the army or the navy, that is managing the strategic package, but Armscor. The progress under Armscor means that it has been possible to make sure that if you want corvettes, if you want helicopters - all those issues are in progress, and they are going very well.

It means that all the goods that are related to the strategic arms package are in progress. The capacity of the Defence Force is of particular importance at this moment for us who are proud and who are constitutional upholders. As the ANC, we are saying that this is happening.

The Constitution says one of our responsibilities as Defence is to defend democracy, and that is what is happening. And the strategic package is contributing to that.

When you call it notorious, we do not know what that is based on, because investigations have been made, but what we are looking at now, in relation to Armscor and the department, and the good work under Comrade Kader’s chairpersonship, is how much is being contributed to improving the capacity of the Defence Force.

That good work is happening, and that is how we should view the strategic package. We should not always try to be negative about it. As regards the peacekeeping role that we are beginning to play on the African continent, as was outlined by the President of this country and which is not being opposed by any opposition party, the Defence Force is playing such a significant role. It is assisting us to stabilise the African continent.

When we say that the strategic package is notorious, you are really misleading the public. You are really saying that the Defence Force is unable to play its particular role.

But, from the ANC’s point of view, the Defence Force has the capacity. Whatever you have been trying to do by leaking the documentation about its own readiness, to us it sounds as if we are misleading the public continuously because you are not telling the public the honest truth.

The honest truth is that with this capacity and the way in which we are conducting ourselves, even by opening up Armscor and by being transparent about Armscor, weare showing the confidence that we have the leadership of the Defence Force; it is the confidence that we have in the executive of our country; and it is the confidence which we have broadly in all the institutions that are monitoring the work that we are doing.

We are saying - look at how we are making sure that procurement is outlined by our chairperson - our procurement policies are very open and you are able to engage and have another look at them and see if the way in which they are conducted under Armscor are delivering what we need.

As a country, there is even an analysis that says you do not understand a threat; with the Defence Force you will always be expected to be ready. We as the ANC are saying, we have the confidence that they are a ready force, and Armscor is helping to build up that particular capacity. You should always be able to say whether they are doing that, because since we have come into power this Defence Force has never violated the Constitution.

It has maintained the Constitution, it has defended the Constitution, and these are the elements that we say are so positive and very important. Even any opposition member who comes here will appreciate that good work is being done.

When you give your support, you give support based on the integrity that the Defence Force is representing at this particular moment within our country, with some of the institutions, even the industry, in the way it is conducting itself.

The other improvement that we are looking at is that Denel is under the leadership of Labuschagne. We are saying there is a lot of improvement that is beginning to take place and we are saying that the DA must keep on watching out. [Time expired.][Interjections.]

Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: We will support peacekeeping; you don’t need submarines for that. You don’t need a submarine in the Great Lakes.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, in thanking all parties for supporting this amendment, I want to emphasise what the chairperson of the portfolio committee stated, that Armscor is the procurement arm of the department.

We are at the moment in a process of restructuring the department, and in that restructuring Armscor will also be affected again. We have gone a long way in transforming Armscor, but we are now going to take the last run, to make sure that Armscor does exactly what it was created for.

We want Armscor to do one thing, and one thing only, and that is to be a procurement arm of the department, and that will ensure that all other activities that Armscor, even now, is trying to do, are properly cut off, so that we have a system which is very transparent, but also a system which is very democratic, to make sure that all citizens of this country, including opposition parties, are happy with what Armscor will be doing.

I thank you for your support. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.



Mr M J ELLIS: [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: I feel sorry for you, Mike, because I know you don’t like me. [Interjections.]

Madam Chairperson and hon members, the International Committee of the Red Cross reports that the only purpose for which mines have been used with total success by the minelayer and with total impact on the target is for the containment or harassment of civilians. Totally unprepared for the effects of mine warfare, civilians suffer terribly.

Graham Hurley, in his novel about the conflict in Angola asks, among other questions:

In this welter of blood and confusion, finding out who really killed James becomes a nightmare. Was it the young soldier who laid the mine, the guerrilla leader, or was it the shadowy businessmen from the West and the East who sell the mines?

Soon after the first democratic elections in 1994, the ANC-led government took up the issue raised by the fight against the manufacture and use of anti-personnel land mines. In 1996, Cabinet prohibited the export of all types of land mines; the following year, Cabinet further decided to prohibit the use, development, production and stockpiling of anti-personnel mines.

By 1998, 312 000 anti-personnel mines held by the Department of Defence had been destroyed. Furthermore, when the South African government approved the restructuring of Mechem, Denel’s demining technology powerhouse, government insisted that the demining component would neither be shut down nor privatised, precisely because it is a critical component of humanitarian assistance that cannot be driven by profit.

South Africa is a signatory to the Convention on the Prohibition of the Use, Stockpiling, Production and Transfer of Anti-personnel Mines and on Their Destruction. On 26 June 2005, through their Parliament, the people of South Africa and government ratified the Anti-personnel Mine Ban Treaty. This followed the Anti-personnel Mines Prohibition Act, which was passed by this House. Supported and guided by Parliament, South Africa is engaged in a number of efforts aimed at promoting mine action on our continent and beyond.

These include, firstly, mine action assistance in terms of financial support to the International Committee of the Red Cross for mine action in Angola; secondly, the provision of training, information and advice to industries engaged in the removal of mines for humanitarian purposes in foreign countries by the SA National Defence Force; and thirdly, assistance provided by the SA Police Service to the Republic of Mozambique in the destruction of personnel mines from 1995 to 2002.

Through the Department of Foreign Affairs, South Africa has played an important role in the formulation of a common African position on anti- personnel mines. This is in keeping with the country’s efforts to help eradicate conflicts in our region and on our continent. We believe that peace and stability in Africa are prerequisites if we are to succeed in fighting poverty and deprivation on our continent.

One of the goals of Nepad is to create long-term conditions for development. These include building capacity in the areas of post-conflict rehabilitation and reconstruction. A key element in creating such conditions is for us to strive for a mine-free continent and indeed for a mine-free world.

There are, however, certain challenges that we face in going forward. Parliament must brace itself for some hard work so as to meaningfully contribute to efforts to ensure that achievements made to date are secured, that effective co-operation between state parties is strengthened and sustained, and that all states that remain outside the treaty join our ranks. Even more challenging is to ensure that mined areas are completely cleared of mines, and resources mobilised to meet the financial demands of victim assistance.

I must re-emphasise the good work our Parliament has done in ensuring the ratification process of the Anti-Personnel Mine Ban Treaty and the passing of the relevant and supporting legislation.

Parliament will have to continue to play its oversight role to ensure the implementation of legislation. I remind the House that in terms of the Anti- personnel Mines Prohibition Act, South Africa cannot perform military operations in alliance with a state that uses anti-personnel mines in the theatre of war. It is therefore encouraging to know that, by November 2004, 143 states had signed the Anti-Personnel Mine Ban Treaty.

However, whilst we do not understand why three countries that are permanent members of UN Security Council have not signed the Anti-Personnel Mine Ban Treaty, it is nevertheless encouraging that these three superpowers - namely Russia, the United States of America and China – attended, as observers, the UN meeting held in Nairobi in December 2004 on the Anti- Personnel Mine Ban Treaty. I believe that in their contact with other countries, these three superpowers will one day be converted, because if they change, many countries that have not yet signed this treaty will be able to sign.

In conclusion, I would like to assure you and this House that this government is totally committed to the banning of anti-personnel land mines, the destruction of existing stockpiles, mine awareness, the clearance of emplaced mines, and victim assistance. The reason is very clear, as I have stated before: You do not win a war with anti-personnel land mines. All they do is maim and kill innocent civilians, especially after the war has ended. I thank you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Deputy Minister, must I give the two minutes that are left over to the hon Asmal? [Interjections.]

Mr M J ELLIS: No! No!

Prof A K ASMAL: Madam Chairperson, all war is violence. All weapons are meant to kill or to maim. But anti-personnel weapons are, like nuclear weapons, different from the normal methods of destruction and killing; they do not discriminate.

That is why there is a very unusual basis for this debate. It is not an executive-sponsored debate, because the Speaker wrote to the chairperson of the portfolio committee in July to say that they had received requests from the Inter-Parliamentary Union, which had convened the conference in Nairobi, enquiring what Parliament would do to ensure the stricter application of the convention, and what Parliament would ask our government to do to involve the 50-odd - and some of them are very odd! – countries which have not become party to the convention.

So, Parliament has a role here of scrutiny over executive decision and action, we are addressing by saying that how our government, as the Deputy Minister has said, will play its enormous role in ensuring that the countries who have not ratified the convention will do so.

Let me say that anti-personnel mines have caused a profound medical, human and social crisis in all the situations in which they were used in this time. They’ve had a devastating effect. The International Committee of the Red Cross, which is a kind of guardian over this, has said that in medical terms anti-personnel mines have created an “epidemic” of exceptionally severe injury, death and suffering.

In Angola, particularly, prosthetics - artificial limbs - is the biggest industry, because Angola and Mozambique, through the extraordinary grace of the apartheid regime for which South Africa bears a heavy responsibility, have suffered grievously from this.

The indiscriminate nature of anti-personnel mines goes against the customary principles of the law of armed conflict, that there must be a separation between combatants and noncombatants. It is a war crime, actually, not to separate them. That is why many of us have very strong views of what happened at Fallujah in Iraq, and the war crimes that were committed in the indiscriminate destruction at Fallujah. So, the General Assembly of the United Nations has appealed to states in various resolutions from 1993 onwards to place a moratorium on the trafficking of such mines and to take steps to restrict their use.

So, we are very proud in the portfolio committee to have raised this matter at the NA, because the NA is, in fact, the spokesperson of the juridical and moral conscience of our country. The second reason why we are very proud is that South Africa played an enormous role in the drafting of the convention that we are talking about, the Convention on the Prohibition of the Use, Stockpiling, Production and Transfer of Anti-personnel Mines and on their Destruction. Remember, only anti-personnel mines are banned. Any other mines that may have an impact on tanks and troop carriers, regrettably, are allowed. But, of course, they have an effect, a spillover effect, on civilians also.

But the reality of negotiations is such that you had to make a bargain to exclude the other kinds of mines that are used against tanks and troop carriers. So the OAU. Again, this is very interesting: African countries moved in this regard,and an important thing to note is that the countries that are refusing to accede to this convention or to become parties are predominantly non-African countries. So, the African countries had made their positions very clear.

South Africa then started to move towards an alternative that would totally ban these mines and not regulate them as some of the other conventions tried to do. This movement became known as the Ottawa Process and the organisation associated with the Ottawa Process subsequently got the Nobel Peace Prize as part of the great antiland mine campaign that was led from there.

By 1997 a treaty was finished. That is remarkable, again, because an initiative came from Africa, from South Africa, and within two years it was adopted. It is exceptional that a treaty could be adopted by December 1997, and South Africa was one of the first countries to become a party to it. So it was a third source of great pleasure that our country took the lead in this.

This was the first time that states had agreed to completely ban a weapon that was already in widespread use, because by 1997 millions and millions of land mines had been planted all over the world, and so the use, the stockpiling, the production and the transfer of anti-personnel mines are forbidden, and we are enjoined to destroy them. So this was the first time that this had happened. The humanitarian consequences of this were enormous because states were obliged to remove the threat of mines already on the ground. There was a time limit laid down, and they must remove them.

There’s another reason, also, of which the Deputy Minister has made mention, and that is Denel’s demining capacity. You see, when I was chairperson of the Committee on Arms Transfers the UN started to use our demining capacity in other parts of the world. We won’t allow demining capacity to be sent to countries, because demining can be an aggressive posture. A country could remove the mines and attack another country, so we only allow the UN or international agencies to use that capacity. Therefore we have a situation in which countries can only retain some mines for development and training in mine detection, in clearance or destruction techniques, and each country has to say whether it has destroyed its mines. Mines in stock must be destroyed within a four-year period and emplaced mines within a 10-year period.

The training programme, as the Deputy Minister said, is enormously important and a state must therefore report to the UN the number of mines it owns, the location of mine areas and the decommissioning of these. South Africa’s role here was enormously important and because of its role there were 153 accessions or ratifications of the convention by August of this year. Very quickly, 150 states had signed by then.

There are a number of significant states that are not parties to the convention. Apart from the three members of the Security Council, there are other states that have said they have enemies on their land frontiers. Well, if you have enemies on your land frontier then you use the mines to stop aggressive action by tanks, troop carriers and others. You do not use anti-personnel mines.

All my life I have had what I call the Asmal shame factor. I think these countries should be shamed into ratifying, because these are the very situations in which anti-personnel mines should not be used, in those areas of great sensitivity. The countries that are involved in that are the countries in the strategic areas of the world where there are tensions, and you can imagine where these tensions are: the Middle East, all the Russian regions, India, Pakistan and other areas where countries have not ratified this.

It is a very important element in the policy of our government that there should be universal adherence to this convention. The portfolio committee therefore asked for a debate on this issue to ensure that we would employ our absolute best efforts to ensure that other countries ratify. There are many opportunities available, either in the African Union or in the meetings of the UN. Resolutions are introduced at the General Assembly to ensure that other countries are aware of this legislation and that they respond.

So, this is the appeal we make as Parliament and the appeal that we will make to a government that has taken the initiative in this. And as the Deputy Minister has said, we cannot stop yet.

I think that we have suffered as a continent, particularly in civil wars, more than any other continent. We have begun to put a stop to it. We must ensure, therefore, that civilians in more vulnerable situations elsewhere are not captives to this wanton act of destruction. So, we appeal to our government to employ its best efforts in all the forums of the world so that the world becomes a more civilised place and, if it does not sound very incongruous, that we fight slightly more civilised wars rather than the barbaric wars that have blotted our landscape for the past 20 years. Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C S Botha): Thank you, hon Asmal. I hope we can do without all kinds of wars, and not only the uncivilised ones.

Adv H C SCHMIDT: Madam Chairperson, the role of Parliaments in eliminating anti-personnel mines is dealt with in the 2004 Nairobi Declaration and the Nairobi Action Plan of the Inter-Parliamentary Union document.

The Nairobi Action Plan calls for 70 steps to be taken by state parties during the period 2005-09. Before dealing with the constructive steps detailed in the Nairobi Declaration, it is important to note that the number of new victims affected by land mines has reportedly decreased drastically. Additionally, it has also been reported that 37 million stockpiled mines have been destroyed.

One very essential requirement placed on state parties is to ensure that all anti-personnel mines in mined areas under their control by no later than 10 years after the coming into force of that particular convention for the state party.

However, despite the achievements of the convention due to the spirit of co- operation between states, international organisations and civil society, the convention does not cover anti-vehicle mines with anti-handling devices or sensitive fuses.

Although there is no consensus with regard to the above, it is the role of Parliament to legislate according to what it regards as morally and ethically permissible by its government in the use of armaments, such as illustrated by the ban on land mines. So, too, Parliament should take a proactive step in legislating against the use of anti-vehicle mines with anti-handling devices or sensitive fuses as mentioned here.

Finally, state parties are to submit annual reports to the UN Secretary- General about the type and quantity in stock, as well as other measures taken by the government. It is Parliament’s duty and prerogative to ensure that this is done. It is also required by government to attend meetings held on an annual basis with the possible review of the treaties, such as the First Review Conference held during 2004. As the success of the convention is based on co-operation between party states, and therefore a high degree of trust is involved, it is the task of parliaments in exercising their oversight role over the executives to ensure that governments’ undertakings are met. I thank you.

Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Chairperson, in 1998 thousands of land mines were destroyed in this country. As a signatory to the protocol and the treaty, South Africa has been spearheading in the AU to ensure that all other countries adhere to the protocol, and all of them have signed the protocol.

We as the Portfolio Committee on Defence want to encourage the Department of Foreign Affairs to spearhead the positioning of the AU and to assume the position that all countries should sign the protocol and make sure that the convention is accepted as it stands. Therefore, such ratification compels other countries like America, Russia and China to do the same and sign the protocol and adhere to the treaty as such. It is by no means acceptable that the so-called big countries don’t adhere to the land mine treaties and the protocol.

There are innocent civilians that need to be compensated. It is highly irregular to see that in other countries there are so many people that do not have legs and arms because of land mines. We urge all countries that have suffered this scourge to make sure that they have a commission compensating those people who have suffered, who have no legs or arms because of the land mines.

We also urge the Department of Foreign Affairs and our Department of Defence to undertake such a commission and to make sure that when they sit on the AU, they take a position that will go to the Security Council to urge countries to compensate those people who have suffered because of these land mines and to make sure that those people and their families are compensated. Only then can they live like human beings, because at this moment they all suffer because of what happened before.

As we are adhering to the standards of a civilised world, we urge those countries where most people have suffered to make sure that they are correctly compensated. We thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr M STEPHENS: Madam Deputy Chair, hon members, South Africa is a leading member of the international campaign to eliminate anti-personnel mines. Within the Southern African region, especially, we have a specific obligation in this regard. Firstly, it is in our national interests to ensure that these cruel and indiscriminate killing devices are not present in our neighbourhood.

Secondly, we have a moral obligation, too, namely that we must assist in the removal of anti-personnel mines in the regions to which we sold them or in which they were set by the previous South African regime.

The role of Parliament is to continuously assess our specific efforts in eliminating anti-personnel mines in countries such as Angola and Mozambique. This Parliament’s role extends further insofar as we are obliged to ensure that the international, protocols and agreements that we acceded to, and specifically those of the UN, are in fact being complied with.

As a country that has vocally campaigned on the international scene against war and aggression, and in particular against the use of anti-personnel mines, we must be seen to be vigorously implementing and promoting the international undertakings that we have made. Failure to do so will merely cause us to be labelled as hypocritical crusaders. [Interjections.] And, in the process, we would undermine our standing and diplomatic influence in the community of nations. I thank you, Madam Deputy Chairperson. [Time expired.]

Mr G P MNGOMEZULU: Madam Chair, hon members, in a speech delivered by the Minister of Defence, Comrade Mosiuoa Lekota, on the Anti-Personnel Mine Bill, on 5 June 2003, he said the following:

South Africa remains totally committed to the banning of anti-personnel mines, the destruction of existing stockpiles, mine awareness, the clearance of unplaced mines, and victim assistance.

The Convention on the Prohibition of the Use, Stockpiling, Production and Transfer of Anti-Personnel Mines and on Their Destruction is an international agreement that seeks to ban anti-personnel mines. This treaty, in our view, is the most comprehensive international instrument for eradicating the deadly scourge of mines.

The treaty commits member states to putting an end to the suffering and casualties caused by these anti-personnel mines. South Africa, in its commitment to the treaty, has thus far placed a moratorium on the export of all mines; has destroyed its stockpiled anti-personnel mines; has passed the Anti-Personnel Mines Prohibition Act, Act 36 of 2003; and is implementing it to the letter. It has also signed and ratified the Convention on the Prohibition of the Use, Stockpiling, Production and Transfer of Anti-Personnel Mines and on Their Destruction.

South Africa has also, as prescribed by the convention, taken appropriate legal measures to prevent the activities prohibited by the convention. Penalties include 25 years of imprisonment or a fine not exceeding R1 million, coupled with forfeiture of affected property to the state.

The ANC-led government is committed to ensuring that its citizens live in a safe environment. We are all well aware that this deadly scourge visits immense pain and suffering upon defenceless victims and their families. Many of those afflicted are innocent children and the consequences are always devastating, as they result in death and loss of limbs even after the conflict has ended.

We are also aware that conflicts in peacetime and a lack of socioeconomic development lead to the proliferation of poverty, hopelessness and despair. These are conditions that are hard to recover from when you have been disempowered through the loss of loved ones, and when everything you owned and worked for is destroyed through a conflict not of your own making.

South Africa must not waver in its resolve to provide a safe environment for its citizens and to promote peace and stability in Africa and in the entire world.

In conclusion, let me reconfirm our commitment to fully supporting the Nairobi Declaration, and I further wish to state that we will strengthen and increase our efforts to clear those areas littered with mines that cause so much pain.

South Africa will continue to destroy stockpiled anti-personnel mines in accordance with our time-bound obligation and will continue to assist land mine victims. Equally important to us is the promotion of the universal acceptance of the convention and adherence thereto.

Lastly, the ANC-led government remains firmly committed to the banning of anti-personnel mines, the destruction of existing stockpiles, mine awareness and victim assistance. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Ms S RAJBALLY: Madam Chair, an anti-personnel mine is defined as, and I quote, “a mine designed to be exploded by the presence, proximity or contact of a person and that will incapacitate, injure or kill one or more persons”.

This sounds more like a trap set for rodents than humans. Many innocent lives have been taken and compromised by the use of such anti-personnel mines.

In line with international agreements and commitments, the MF supports the prohibition of the use, stockpiling, production and transfer of anti- personnel mines within South Africa and promotes their allegiance to the rest of Africa. We need to learn that war and genocide are not means to victory. As Parliament, we have the power to enforce legislation and policies to ban the use of anti-personnel mines in South Africa.

This plight can be extended to our African brothers and sisters in that innocent lives have been taken, and in order to end that, we need to act now. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr L N DIALE: Madam Chair, hon President, Deputy President, Ministers and Deputy Ministers in absentia, chairperson of the portfolio committee Comrade Kader Asmal, members and comrades, Chief of the Defence Force and Secretary for Defence in absentia . . . ``ke a le dumediša ka moka’’. [I greet you all.]

The decision of Cabinet on 19 February 1997 prohibited the use, development, production and stockpiling of anti-personnel land mines. The South African Cabinet further decided that South Africa’s existing stockpile of anti-personnel land mines be destroyed. I am dealing with the policy anyway. We are still standing by that decision.

As a result, on 21 May 1997 the first public destruction of a limited number of South Africa’s stockpiled anti-personnel land mines commenced. On 3 October 1997 the final phase of the destruction of South Africa’s stockpiled anti-personnel land mines was carried out.

From 3 December to 4 December 1997, South Africa took part in the World Convention on the Prohibition of the Use, Stockpiling, Production and Transfer of Anti-personnel Mines and on Their Destruction, and South Africa continues to participate in other conventions and meetings aimed at promoting these programmes.

In conclusion, we call upon all remaining states that are still to sign the convention to do so. We also encourage those signatories of the convention that have not done so to ratify it as soon as possible. The ANC supports this policy decision of the country.

Motšwa-gabo ga a laele; go laela ke go se boe. Ke a leboga. [I will not say goodbye because this is my home, and that might mean that I will not return. Thank you.]

Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Chairperson, hon members, thank you very much for your support. Again, I commit the Department of Defence and the government to the total ban on anti-personnel mines. We will try, through the Department of Foreign Affairs, to influence those countries that are still sceptical. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.


Mr T S DODOVU: Madam Deputy Chairperson, one of the most important study tours that the Portfolio Committee on Defence has undertaken as part of its oversight function over the department and the SA National Defence Force during the period under review, was the visit to the Tempe Military Base in Bloemfontein.

We recall that, several years ago, a fatal shooting incident occurred at the SA Infantry Battalion at the Tempe Military Base. This fatal shooting incident reminded all of us about the past racial divisions and polarisation which had catastrophic consequences for the future of South Africa.

The tragedy that befell the Tempe Military Base was without parallel in the history of South Africa, particularly after the advent of our new constitutional dispensation in 1994. Indeed, that was a tragedy that shook and stunned the progressive mankind. It was a staggering blow to the efforts of building a unified, disciplined and professional Defence Force, capable of fulfilling the Constitutional imperatives of defending and protecting the Republic, its territorial integrity and its people, in accordance with the Constitution and the principle of international law.

When the portfolio committee visited the Tempe Military Base it, indeed, recalled that the tragedy was a blow that was felt most intensely by those men and women who were expected to play a leading role in conflict management operations and international peace missions. It was a tragedy that can never be forgotten.

The primary objective of the study tour therefore was to ascertain progress in respect of the transformation of the SA National Defence Force, including the successes and challenges at the military units, after the fatal shooting incident, at the SA Infantry Battalion. As part of this study tour, the portfolio committee visited the 44 Parachute Regiment, which provides combat-ready airborne infantry for the SA National Defence Force. It is important to mention that the parachute regiment provides training for the army, the navy, the air force and the military health service.

We feel that the challenges facing the SA Infantry Battalion need to be attended to as well. This includes the poor state of facilities and equipment and the filling of vacant posts. If these challenges are fully addressed, they will further raise the morale of our troops as they are deployed in Burundi, in the DRC, and internally in areas like Pongola in KwaZulu-Natal.

Modulasetulo ya hlomphehang, komiti e ile ya etela sebaka sa Group 36, moo ho bonahetseng hore ho na le mathata a mannyane a amanang le ho nyollwa ha basebetsi le maemo a badudi.Ke nahana hore lefapha le tlamehile ho lebella mathata ao hore le tle le kgone ho a fedisa. (Translation of Sesotho paragraph follows)

[Chairperson, the committee visited the area known as Group 36, and judging from what we heard from the people there, it was clear that there are problems with regard to employee promotions and the living conditions. I am of the opinion that the department should look into those problems and take measures to solve them.]

Despite enormous improvements since the last fatal shooting incident, the department has to continue to attend to the transformation challenges facing members of the SA National Defence Force.

As members of the portfolio committee, we reaffirm our unflinching commitment to help the SA National Defence Force to prepare and employ the defence capabilities, which are commensurate with the needs of South Africa, as regulated by the Constitution, by national legislation, as well as the parliamentary and executive direction.

Our strongest commitments will fail if we neglect to maintain avenues of dialogue within the SA National Defence Force. Such dialogues thrive in a climate of humility, credibility and trust. To this end, we pledge to facilitate understanding and collaboration. We also pledge to engage and embrace all constituencies, so that they must share our vision, which is that a sustainable future for humankind depends on peace and stability, a precious heritage for future generations.

We express, lastly, our deepest gratitude to the whole management of the Department of Defence, for organising a programme and the study tour on behalf of the Portfolio Committee on Defence. In particular, we further express our appreciation to all members of the SA National Defence Force at the Tempe Military Base for their generous hospitality and excellent arrangement of the programme. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: Chairperson, the parliamentary committee for defence made a successful study tour to the De Aar 97 Ammunition Depot and Bloemfontein. We received a thorough briefing at these respective establishments and noted, with a great deal of interest and concern, the very many challenges that they are confronted with.

It is the view of the parliamentary committee for defence that many of these challenges are not restricted to one service, but are generic of the SANDF. All of these are included in the report and, where necessary, critical recommendations have been made to address those challenges.

The following are but just some of the issues that need our urgent attention: At the De Aar ammunition depot, we learned that there are currently 78 000 tons of obsolete ammunitions, of which 23 000 tons are stored at De Aar. Up to 90% of the SANDF ammunition is older than 20 years and it would take approximately 34 years for the Department of Defence to dispose of its unserviceable ammunition in the conventional manner. Therefore there is an urgent need for us to look at the purchase of a disposal plan, or else there is a disaster waiting to happen.

At the air force base at Bloemspruit we learned that the recruitment and retention of pilots, air traffic controllers, technicians and engineers pose a serious challenge to the operational capacity of the SA Air Force. Funding for the Rooivalk was another matter for concern.

There are issues of staffing that are also challenges. For example, at one SA Infantry Battalion there are 1 019 available posts, but only 747 are filled, with 42 civilian personnel. The same situation prevails at the armour formation and the SA Tank Regiment. There are a host of other issues, including representivity, repair and maintenance of infrastructure and equipment, etc, all of which cannot be corrected or addressed without adequate funding, which is highly unlikely to be forthcoming, thanks to the strategic defence packages which consume the bulk of the special defence account, which is currently standing at just over R9 billion.

In response to my member statement regarding the operational capacity and the challenges of the SANDF, the Deputy Minister, instead of honestly dealing with the problems confronting the SANDF, chose to divert attention from the real issues, making false allegations against the DA, accusing it of leaking the confidential report on the combat readiness of the SANDF and, in doing so, by implication, cast aspersions on my personal integrity.

Only this morning, the chairperson of the committee informed us that no member of the parliamentary committee of defence was found to have been responsible for this leak. Therefore you owe this House… You had the courage to make that accusation so, when you get the chance, use that courage and retract your remarks. [Interjections.]

Our conclusion about the crisis facing the SANDF is based on information gathered from numerous DoD briefings – I don’t go and sleep in the committee, I make notes - and oversight visits such as this one, including but not limited to the closed briefing in question.

In conclusion, Winston Churchill believed that criticism performs the same function as pain. It hurts but, more importantly, it identifies that which needs attention. We will continuously highlight the problems confronting the SANDF, no matter how much the Deputy Minister is going to protest, to ensure that South Africans have a professional and efficient Defence Force. Show some courage and retract your remarks. [Applause.]

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Mphathisihlalo, ngize lapha ukuzogcwalisa ukuthi saya e-De Aar sabona ukuhlala kwezimpahla zethu nomsebenzi, ikakhulukazi izinhlamvu ezindala. Sabona ukuthi kunengozi enkulu kabi, ngakho uMnyango wezokuVikela kumele wenze ongase ukwenze okusemandleni ukuze kutholakale indawo la uzobeka khona yonke leya misebenzi enjeya eyingozi engaqhuma noma yinini bese iqhumela abantu abasebenza kuyona nezakhiwo eziseduze bese ziba sengozini.

Okwesibili, saya ukuyobona la kufundiswa khona labo abandizisa amabhanoyi sabona indlela abaqeqeshwa ngayo nendlela abasebenza ngayo. Lapho-ke sabona ukuthi umsebenzi usemkhulu wokuthi kufundiswe izingane zethu ukuthi ziqale ukuyobonwa, ziyofunwa . . . [Ubuwelewele.] Cha ngiyacela Sihlalo, ungithulisele loya nkosikazi lowaya. [Uhleko.]

Saya kubona ukuthi izingane zifundiswa kanjani ukundiza. Ngakho-ke njengoba zifunda ziqhubeka siyethemba ukuthi mhonishwa lezi zingane zakithi zizofunwa manje emanyuvesi ngoba zincane ezakithi izingane kunezezinye izinhlanga. Ngoba kuyabonakala ukuthi ukufundela ukundizisa amabhanoyi kungumsebenzi omkhulu kakhulu, siyacela ukuthi uMnyango uye kumanyuvesi uyozifuna lezi zingane.

Okokugcina, saya laphaya eSwartklip sayobheka saze samema abasebenzi bakwaDenel ukuthi bayobheka ukuthi ubudlelwane phakathi kwabo nabantu abakhelene nabo embonini ela eKapa kuhamba kanjani. Sathola ukuthi kunobudlelwane obungebuhle neze phakathi komakhelwane, abantu abakhe laphaya, nemboni. Abantu basuke benze iphutha bavule izingcingo bangene ngaphakathi kanti mhlawumbe laphaya ngaphakathi kwakhiwa izinhlamvu eziqhumayo, eziyingozi ezingase zibabeke esimweni esilukhuni.

Angazi ukuthi ngenzeni kuloya nkosikazi, Sihlalo. [Uhleko.] Ngakho-ke siyacela ukuthi uMnyango uyiqaphele le nto ukuthi lapho kukhona khona abantu bomphakathi, okwenziwa khona izinto eziyingozi . . . (Translation of Zulu speech follows.)

[Chairperson, I am here to confirm that we went to De Aar and we saw how our resources, especially old ammunition are kept. We saw that there is a big danger; therefore the Department of Defence must do whatever it can within its powers to make a storeroom available where all dangerous products that could explode anytime like the ones we saw there could be kept. These, if they explode, can put the lives of those who work with them and the neighbouring buildings in jeopardy.

Secondly, we went to see where the pilots are trained and we saw the way they are trained and the way they work. We then saw that there is still a lot to be done to teach our kids to want to be seen and be wanted . . . [Interjections.] Mr Chairperson, I am pleading with you, could you please tell that woman to keep quiet, that one. [Laughter.]

We saw how our kids are taught to fly; therefore as they continue with their flying lessons, we hope that there will also be a search for black students at the universities, because they are in the minority as compared to the other races. We ask the department to go on a recruitment drive and look for these students at the universities because it is clear that flying a plane is such a huge task.

Lastly we went to Swartklip on an oversight visit and we even invited personnel from Denel to see how the relationship between the workforce and the surrounding communities here in Cape Town is. We found that there is an unhealthy relationship between the surrounding communities and Swartklip. People make a mistake by encroaching on the facility and opening gaps in fences to enter there in Swartklip and this is a safety risk, because you would find that there are explosive products which are very hazardous that can put them at risk.

Chairperson, I do not know what I have done to that woman. [Laughter.] We therefore ask the department to monitor this so that things that put people’s lives in danger are not done in public places . . . ]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! Hon Ndlovu, could you take your seat, please.

Mnu S E ASIYA: Sihlalo obekekileyo, ukulungisa imposiso; ndicela ukuba ilungu elibekekileyo lithi xa lithetha nelinye ilungu lilibize njengelungu elibekekileyo, lingathi: “Lo nkosikazi.” Ndicela ukuba lirhoxise loo magama, Sihlalo. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[Mr S E ASIYA: Hon chairperson, to rectify a mistake, I would like to ask the hon member to address the other member as the hon member and refrain from saying: ``That woman.” I would like him to withdraw those words, Chairperson.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Hon member, would you please address members as honourable? And I thought the hon member there was very impressed with your presentation, but please proceed, hon member.

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. Ngenzenjani, ngishaye ihlombe ngokuthi uyangesekela? [Thank you Chairperson. What do I do, must I clap hands because he supports me?]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M DOIDGE): Uyakusekela. [She supports you.]

Mnu V B NDLOVU: O, Nkosikazi! [Ubuwelewele.]

Bengithi-ke uMnyango kufanele ukuthi ukuqaphele ukuthi lapho kukhona khona imboni kukhona nabantu eduzane, kube khona ubudlelwane obusemthethweni nobuhlanganisa abantu noMnyango, abantu bangawubuki uMnyango njengento engale bona bengapha, kube nguthina nabo, kube negebe phakathi kwabo. Lokho kuyasiza ukuthi bakwazi ukusebenzisana.

Siyayibeka-ke le mibiko ukuthi yamukelwe lapha eNdlini.

Mhlonishwa ngiyabonga, ngibonga futhi nakumhlonishwa wenkosikazi okade engisekela. [Uhleko.] (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr V B NDLOVU: Oh, woman! [Interjections.]]

I was saying the department should see to it that where there is an industry and people around it, there is at least a legal bond between surrounding communities and the department. People should not see the department as the other and they, the self. Instead it should be us. That helps in building a healthy working relationship.

We ask your support of these reports.[Applause.]]

Honourable Chairperson, thank you I also thank the honourable woman who supported me.]

Mrs X C MAKASI: Chairperson, Minister, Deputy Minister and hon members, today it is a pleasure for me to table the report on our oversight role as defence portfolio committee in this august House. On 8 March we visited Denel’s Swartklip after concerns were raised about the plant itself, as it is located in the heart of different communities. Surrounding communities are Khayelitsha and Mitchells Plain, which resulted in a facility becoming a health and safety risk.

Sasikhokelwa ngusihlalo wethu, uQabane uKader Asmal, samkelwa ngobubele nguMnu Picket olibambela likamanejala jikelele apha eNtshona Koloni, kunye neqela lakhe. Sibulela kakhulu kubo. Eyona nto isivuyise kakhulu kukufumanisa ukuba kukho abantu basekuhlaleni abangamalungu ekomiti kaDenel. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[We were lead by our chairperson, Comrade Kader Asmal, and we received a warm welcome from Mr Picket, an acting manager-general here at the Western Cape, and his group. We are very thankful to them. What make us happier is to discover that there are members of the community who are members of the Denel committee.]

Swartklip Products are used for commercial, military and rock-breaking purposes. The products include calibre ammunitions, as well as high explosives and pyrotechnic products. Swartklip is a world leader in forming low and high velocity ammunition rounds. It exports 90% of its products; 70% is military and the rest is commercial.

I-Swartklip inabasebenzi abangama-554, kwaye ama-80 ekhulwini abasebenzi ngabantu abamnyama. Basixelele ukuba enye inkxaso abanayo liziko loluleko . . . [Swartklip employs 554 workers, and 80 percent are Blacks. They told us they got another support from the correctional centre . . . ]

. . . a community and personal training and development centre, as well as assistance with small and medium enterprise development, and driver’s training for workers. According to Swartklip, the turnover was R208 million in 1999-2000, with a net profit of R9 million, and labour cost was 20%. In 2003-04 the turnover was R478 million, the net profit R54 million, and labour cost was 16%.

The Swartklip property covers about 517 hectares and there are different bird and plant species. Swartklip received the ISO 14001 certificate in

  1. A requirement for this environment certificate was an existence of an integrated waste management system. This system was approved in 1996-98. The five-star Nosa certificate, a safety rating funded by the industry, was received in 2000.

I-Swartklip inomntu wonyango ohleli ekhona ngamaxesha onke, nekomiti ehleli ikhona yokuhlala ejongene nokhuseleko nempilo yabasebenzi. Siyile komiti saye saxelelwa ukuba iingozi emsebenzini zinqabe kakhulu, noxa kukho amarhe okuba abantu abathe bathatha umhlala-phantsi baye bahlaselwe sisifo sombefu nomhlaza, nto leyo eqwalaselwe ngamandla yile nkampani.

Isicelo sasenziwe yile nkampani kwiSebe leMicimbi yezeNdalo noKhenketho nakumasipala sokuba kwakhiwe indawo yokutshisela ukuthoba umgangatho wongcoliseko lwendalo kuba betshisela kwindawo evulekileyo intsimbi ezinobunzima.

ISebe leMicimbi yezeNdalo noKhenketho lathembisa ngokukhupha ingxelo ngophando oluzimeleyo ngoJanyuwari ka-2005. Basayilindile loo ngxelo.

Kwakhe kwakho nesinye isithyolo sokuba ungcoliseko lwendalo lukho emanzini eSwartklip. Uphando lwe-CSIR zange luyifumanise inobunyani loo nto. Ikhona irhasi eyakhe yavuza ngomhla wesi-6 kuAgasti 2003.

Siyile komiti saye saxelelwa ukuba olo ngcoliseko aluzange lwenze monakalo ungako, ngakumbi ebantwaneni. [Laphela ixesha.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Swartklip has got a health worker who is always present, and a community committee, which is there to ensure the safety and the health status of the workers. As the committee we were told that accidents at work seldom occur, although there were rumours that people who went on pension were attacked by fever and cancer, something which this company is safeguarding very strong.

This company made an application to the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism and the municipality that a burning place be built to reduce the amount of nature pollution, because heavy metals were burnt in an open space.

The Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism promised to release a report concerning an independent enquiry in January 2005. They are still waiting for that report.

There was also an allegation that nature pollution is present in the water at Swartklip. The CSIR investigation did not find any truth in that. There was gas that leaked on the 6th of August 2003.

As this committee we were told that pollution did not cause much damage, especially to people. [Time expired.]]

Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, the MF acknowledges and applauds the hard work put in by the Portfolio Committee on Defence on both reports. According to the reports circumstances between De Aar, Bloemfontein and Swartklip are very similar. The MF strongly supports the relocation of the Swartklip products company, noting the threat it poses to the surrounding community.

A further recommendation made for Swartklip is the view of the situation there. It is found suitable and should be mobilised as soon as possible. In view of the report made on the De Aar School of Ammunition and 97 Ammunition Depot, recommendations are agreed to consider the situation there. As for the Airforce Base Bloemspruit, the Tempe Military and the Army Support Bases, the MF notes the predicaments in these areas and unanimously supports the recommendations suggested.

We specially support recommendation 9, which says military justice should be fast-tracked because justice delayed is justice denied. Thank you very much.[Applause.]

Mr O E MONARENG: Mr Chairperson and Ministers, if they are still around . . . [Interjections.]

Mr M J ELLIS: No, they’ve all left!

Mr O E MONARENG: Oh, all Ministers and their Deputies have left! Allow me to give a vivid exposition of the visit to De Aar, 97 Ammunition Depot, and Bloemfontein Airforce Base, Bloemspruit, etc. I’m sure that my comrades have covered the visits to Swartklip and other military bases.

Mine is just to put into context the reasons that made our committee undertake the oversight visit, which to our minds is an endeavour that should not be reduced to mere excursions and leisure exercises. I’m sure that all of us know that oversight visits are very important.

At the De Aar 97 Ammunition Depot the delegation had the benefit of a briefing by Officer Commanding Col N Majola and the then Maj-Gen Binda, the then Chief of Joint Support, and Mrs V Daniel of the National Conventional Arms Control Committee and Mr B van Staden of Armscor, were also in attendance.

The committee learnt that the SA National Defence Force acquired large quantities of ammunition during the 1970s and 1980s, most of which was not used and is currently being stored in De Aar, Jan Kempdorp and Naboomspruit, which are the major ammunition depots of the SA National Defence Force.

In earlier years, until 1995 the regime dumped tons and tons of ammunition in the sea. Due to the advent of the new dispensation, our government had to adhere to international conventions and agreements, and had to stop these wrong practices.

At De Aar our delegation also learnt that the depot consisted of 186 magazines, meaning magazines where ammunition is kept and stored, not magazines for your AK-47! The depot is the size of 29 rugby fields and has a 49 km rail network; it is secured by a high-voltage fence, detection alarms, an X-ray machine, metal detectors, a monitor room and surveillance cameras, which means it is very secure.

There are currently 78 000 tons of obsolete and unserviceable ammunition at the three major depots, of which 23 000 tons are at De Aar, and this is a fact which was alluded to by Mr Shah. The percentages of unserviceable or obsolete and serviceable or usable ammunition are 67% and 33% respectively. The guaranteed shelf life for shells and pyrotechnics is 10 years and for small arms ammunition 20 years. The point, however, is that 90% of the SANDF’s ammunition is older than 20 years.

As the committee we have urged the department to investigate the feasibility of erecting an ammunition disposal plant, which would address the backlog of ammunition to be disposed of in seven to eight years instead of the 34 years it would take if the old methods of disposal were to be used. It is therefore against this background that the committee in its final report had to make the following recommendations: firstly, the possible inclusion of ammunition disposal in the revised White Paper on Defence and the Defence Review; secondly, the country’s continuance of the observation of international agreements and conventions that seek the protection of the environment; thirdly, the investigation of the NCACC- approved sales of serviceable small calibre ammunition to fund the disposal of obsolete ammunition; fourthly, the pursuance of the erection of a disposal plant, but in the short term the danger of ammunition storage should be addressed through innovative means.

At Airforce Base Bloemspruit, which we visited, we also investigated the reasons why such a base existed. We discovered that the base provided an air capacity for the Defence Force through basic flying training at Langebaanweg, helicopters at Bloemspruit, transport aircraft at Waterkloof and fighter aircraft at Hoedspruit and Makhado.

The committee had an opportunity to witness the manoeuvres of the Rooivalk, and an explanation was given on the difficulties of marketing and selling the Rooivalk. Yet the project on it is ongoing and funding of R200 million per annum, of which R10 million would go to missiles, is needed to operate it effectively over a period of three years.

The following recommendations were made by the committee in the report: firstly, recruitment, training and the retention of scarce skills in the helicopter environment are challenges and should be addressed through incentive programmes; secondly, clarity should be sought about the operational funding of the Rooivalk over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework so that the Rooivalk receives financial and institutional support.

In conclusion, the committee has made many more visits which are tabled in its report before Parliament to make oversight work a very worthwhile exercise, to encourage the department to adhere to the Cabinet’s and government’s imperatives and parities, and lastly, to exercise civilian oversight over the military.

I just want to take this opportunity to clarify a small point. Earlier Mr Shah came forward with a very honest presentation with which I, as his colleague in the committee, agree despite the fact that he’s from the DA. The only point he raised when we held the portfolio committee meeting, which was a closed meeting, was that he said on record he had a right to make notes.

We didn’t want him to exercise his right to make notes, precisely because on that day we were actually avoiding leaking information, because the meeting on the combat readiness of the entire SA National Defence Force was a closed session, and we promised as members of the committee that we would withhold the secrets of the department so that the department, in dealing with the committee, could trust us and that we should be in a position to trust the department.

This morning I can confirm that the chairperson has actually alluded to the fact that members of the portfolio committee did not leak information. If there is any leak it was done from outside that meeting and not from within the portfolio committee. I want to thank you one and all. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Good afternoon, Mike. [Interjections.]

Hon Chairperson, members of Parliament, I want to start by saying effective oversight is crucial for the transformation of the department. We thank the committee for these oversight visits. We take note of the reports and we will consider the recommendations made. The issue of erecting a disposal plant is already at an advanced stage. We will definitely at some stage report to the committee about that.

The air force has already started the exercise of recruiting young black children for various responsibilities in the air force, and we have told the department in no uncertain terms that if they cannot train these blacks here in South Africa we will send them to other countries such as Zimbabwe and Ethiopia, which have got the best training facilities on the continent, so we are addressing that.

What I would probably ask the members of Parliament to do is to make sure that they convey this message to especially those young blacks who are doing maths and science in their schools.

We are embarking on a programme of improving the image of the department, and the most important thing in that respect is the relationship between the department and the people, because we want to make sure that the image of the past is removed and that there is a close relationship between the department and the people it is supposed to serve.

Xa ndiza kuyeka, Mhlalingaphambili, ndiyavuya ukuqaphela ukuba intshumayelo yam imshukumisile umhlekazi lo wam, uSayedali-Shah kangangokuba uyaxhumaxhuma. Ukuba bendisecaweni, bendiza kucela ukuba kubekwe isitulo ukuze uSayedali-Shah aguquke ukuze izono zakhe zixolelwe, ngoba xa ulivile ilizwi, okulandelayo kukuba uguquke endaweni yokuba ube utakataka. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[In conclusion, Chairperson, I am happy to note that my sermon has touched the hon Sayedali-Shah and that he is jumping up as a result of that. If I were in church, I would have asked for a chair to be brought forward so that the hon Sayedali-Shah could repent and his sins could be forgiven. When the sermon has touched you, the next thing to do is for you to repent instead of jumping up and down.]

Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: I don’t understand. You should say it in English! Why don’t you say it in English?

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, before I rise to move the motion, I just want to rise on a point of order: While the Deputy Minister was speaking, the hon Shah interjected by saying: “Why don’t you speak in English?” Now, my understanding is that our Constitution recognises 11 different official languages, all of which have equal right in this Chamber, so if a member wishes to follow a speech, there is an interpreting service. I don’t think it’s in order to shout at members about what language they should be using. [Interjections.]

Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: Chairperson, could you give me an opportunity, please?

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): I haven’t recognised you yet, but proceed.

Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: When I said: “Why don’t you say what you said in English?”, it didn’t mean that I didn’t recognise the other languages. [Interjections.] The allegation was made in English. There are those who don’t understand the indigenous languages, and if he gives clarity on what he intended to say or if he denies what he said, people should understand. I don’t understand isiZulu, so I don’t even know what he’s saying.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order, hon member! Hon Sayedali- Shah, could you please address the Chair. I see you are communicating directly with the member who raised the point of order.

Firstly, I think the point should be taken in the context that we do respect all languages and I think we should accord those languages the respect they deserve. There is a service provided by this House for all members to follow, and I think we should adhere to that. Now, hon Shah, I’m going to . . . [Interjections.] Often in debates . . . [Interjections.] Hold on, please hold on. Often in debates I have indicated to you that shouting at members who are at the podium is not desirable.

There are mechanisms in this House. You could rise on a point of order and address the issue, but simply shouting at members at the podium is not acceptable. I would ask that in future you adhere to the mechanisms that exist in the House of addressing issues. [Interjections.] Mr Shah, I’m addressing you.

I would like you to adhere to that. We do everything in our power to accommodate as many people and views and ways of addressing one another as possible, but really, I think we should use the existing measures that work for everybody. Could we agree on that?

Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: Yes, Sir.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Very well, you may respond.

Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: When the hon Deputy Minister made the false allegation it was heard on television by a vast majority of the public of this country. Now if he wants to exonerate me – and I want to come clean, because my personal integrity was involved, not yours, Chief Whip! - he should say it in English so that those who don’t understand isiZulu will now understand that I wasn’t responsible for the leak.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order, Mr Shah! [Interjections.] Order! [Interjections.] Mr Shah, may I remind you that when whatever was said – you are making an allegation that an accusation was made – I was not in the Chair, and I cannot then respond on behalf of another presiding officer. I hope the matter is now laid to rest. Thank you. Could we proceed, hon Deputy Chief Whip?

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: We move that the report be adopted.

Motion agreed to.

Report on Oversight Tours to De Aar(97 Ammunition Depot); Bloemfonein (Airforce Base Bloemspruit, Tempe Military Base and Army Suport Base) accordingly adopted.

Report on Oversight Tour to Swartklip Products accordingly adopted.

The House adjourned at 17:32. ____


                       FRIDAY, 26 AUGUST 2005


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

  1. Referrals to committees of papers tabled
The following papers have been tabled  and  are  now  referred  to  the
relevant committees as mentioned below:

  1. The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on Public

    Accounts  for  consideration  and  the   Portfolio   Committee   on
    Provincial and Local Government:

      a) General Report of the Auditor-General on the Audit Outcomes of
         Local Government for the financial year ended 30 June 2004 [RP

2.      The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
    Foreign Affairs:

       a) Report of the South African Delegation to the Third Ordinary
          Session of the Pan-African Parliament, 29 March2005, held at
          Gallagher Estates, Midrand.

        b) Report on Information and Update Workshop for Pan-African
           Parliament Standing Committee on Cooperation, International
           Relations and Conflict Resolution, 1-2 April 2005.

3.      The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
    Finance. The Reports of the Auditor-General and the Independent
    Auditors on the Financial Statements are referred to the Standing
    Committee on Public Accounts for consideration:

      a) Report and Financial Statements of the South African Reserve
         Bank for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Independent
         Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.

      b) Report and Financial Statements of the Development Bank of
         Southern Africa for 2004-2005, including the Report of the
         Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.

      c) Report and Financial Statements of the Financial Services Board
         for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
         the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.[RP 51-2005].

4.      The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
    Finance for consideration and report:

      a) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South
         Africa and the Government of the Republic of Malaysia for the
         Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal
         Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income, tabled in terms of
         section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

      b) Explanatory Memorandum on the Double Taxation Convention
         between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the
         Government of the Republic of Malaysia.

5.      The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
      a) Activities Report of the Development Bank of Southern Africa
         for 2004-2005.

      b) Development Bank of Southern Africa – Footprints of Development

      c) Government Notice No 1114 published in Government Gazette No
         27773 dated 15 July 2005: Amendment of the list of public
         entities as contained in schedule 2 and 3 of the Public Finance
         Management Act, 1999.

      d) Proclamation No R.32 published in Government Gazette No 27766
         dated 8 July 2005: Appointment and Re-appointment of members of
         the Tax Courts in terms of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 53
         of 1962).

6.      The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
    Communications. The Report of the Independent Auditors on the
    Financial Statements is referred to the Standing Committee on
    Public Accounts for consideration:

  a) Report and Financial Statements of the South African Broadcasting
     Corporation (SABC) for 2004-2005, including the Report of the
     Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.

 7. The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
    Enterprises. The Report of the Independent Auditors on the
    Financial Statements is referred to the Standing Committee on
    Public Accounts for consideration:

 a) Report and Financial Statements of Escom Holdings Limited (Escom)
    for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on
    the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.

8.      The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Justice and Constitutional Development for consideration and

      a) Report on the provisional suspension from office with
         remuneration: Mr K Sulliman, an additional magistrate at the
         Durban Magistrate Court.

      b) Report on the provisional suspension from office with
         remuneration: Mr M S E Khumalo, magistrate and Head of office
         at the Amsterdam Magistrate Court.

      c) Report on the provisional suspension from office with
         remuneration: Mr M F Mathe, an additional magistrate at the
         Pine Town Magistrate Court.

9.      The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
    Justice and Constitutional Development:

      a) Proclamation No R.26 published in Government Gazette No 27719
         dated 27 June 2005: Referral of matters to existing Special
         Investigating Unit and Special Tribunal in terms of the Special
         Investigating Units and Special Tribunals Act, 1996 (Act No 74
         of 1996).

      b) Proclamation No R.27 published in Government Gazette No 27719
         dated 27 June 2005: Referral of matters to existing Special
         Investigating Unit and Special Tribunal in terms of the Special
         Investigating Units and Special Tribunals Act, 1996 (Act No 74
         of 1996).

      c) Government Notice No R.614 published in Government Gazette No
         27719 dated 27 June 2005: Amendment of Regulations in terms of
         the Promotion of Administrative Justice Act, 2000 (Act No 3 of

10.     The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Defence. The Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
     Statements is referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts
     for consideration:

       a) Report and Financial Statements of the Armaments Corporation
          of South Africa Ltd (ARMSCOR) for 2004-2005, including the
          Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
          Statements for 2004-2005.

11.     The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Agriculture and Land Affairs for consideration and report:

       a) International Plant Protection Convention, tabled in terms of
          section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996 (Act No 108 of

       b) Explanatory Memorandum to the International Plant Protection

12.     The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Labour:

       a) Recommendation of the International Labour Organisation (ILO)
          – Recommendation No 195 concerning Human Resource
          Development: Education, Training and Lifelong Learning,
          adopted by the Conference at it’s 92nd Session – Geneva, 17
          June 2004.

 13. The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Education. The Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
    Statements is referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts
    for consideration:

       a) Report and Financial Statements of Umalusi – Council for
          Quality Assurance in General and Further Education and
          Training for 2004-2005, including the Report of the
          Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2004-

14.     The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
    Environmental Affairs and Tourism. The Reports of the Independent
    Auditors on the Financial Statements are referred to the Standing
    Committee on Public Accounts for consideration:

       a) Report and Financial Statements of the Johannesburg World
          Summit Company for 2002-2003, including the Report of the
          Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2002-

       b) Report and Financial Statements of the Johannesburg World
          Summit Company for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2003-
  1. Membership of Assembly
In terms of Rule 319 of the National Assembly Mr J H Jeffery, formerly
counsellor to the Deputy President, has been designated as
Parliamentary Counsellor to the President and Ms S D Motubatse-
Hounkpatin has been designated as Parliamentary Counsellor to the
Deputy President. Both designations are with effect from 18 August
  1. Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent
 (1)    Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 25 August 2005:

      i) Constitutional Matters Amendment Bill [B 22 – 2005] (National
         Assembly – sec 75)


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

  1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development
(a)    Report of the South African Law Reform Commission on the Repeal
    of the Black Administration Act, 1927 (Act No 38 of 1927).

                       MONDAY, 29 AUGUST 2005


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

  1. Introduction of Bills
 (1)    The Minister of Minerals and Energy

        i) Diamonds Amendment Bill [B 27 – 2005] (National Assembly –
           sec 75) [Bill and prior notice of its introduction published
           in Government Gazette No 27929 of 19 August 2005.]

     Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Minerals
     and Energy of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the
     Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint
     Rule 160, on 30 August 2005.

     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
     the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within three parliamentary
     working days.
  1. Classification of Bill by Joint Tagging Mechanism:
The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 29 August 2005 in terms of Joint
Rule 160(4), classified the Forestry Laws Amendment Bill [B 24 – 2005],
introduced in the National Assembly, as a section 76 Bill and as a Bill
falling within the ambit of section 18(1) of the Traditional Leadership
and Governance Framework Act, 2003 (Act No. 41 of 2003).

National Assembly

The Speaker

  1. Membership of Committees

    (1) The following changes have been made to the membership of Portfolio Committees, viz:

     Appointed: Cupido, Mr H B
     Discharged: Khumalo, Rev M S
     Trade and Industry:
     Appointed: Cupido, Mr H B


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

  1. The Speaker and the Chairperson
 a) Report and Financial Statements of the Municipal Demarcation Board
    for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
    Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 149-2005].
  1. The Minister in The Presidency
(b)     Report and Financial Statements of the International Marketing
    Council (IMC) for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-
    General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.


National Assembly:

  1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of Malaysia for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes, dated 17 August 2005:

    The Portfolio Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of Malaysia for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Agreement.

Request to be considered.

                       TUESDAY, 30 AUGUST 2005


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

  1. Referral of Bill to National House of Traditional Leaders

    The Secretary to Parliament has, in accordance with section 18(1) of the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act, 2003 (Act No. 41 of 2003), referred the Forestry Laws Amendment Bill [B 24 - 2005] to the National House of Traditional Leaders, which must within 30 days from the date of this referral, make any comments it wishes to make.

  2. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159 (1) National Road Traffic Amendment Bill, 2005, submitted by the Minister of Transport on 26 August 2005. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Transport and the Select Committee on Public Services.

 (2)    National Land Transport Transition Amendment Bill, 2005,
     submitted by the Minister of Transport on 26 August 2005. Referred
     to the Portfolio Committee on Transport and the Select Committee
     on Public Services.

 (3)    Electricity Regulation Bill, 2005, submitted by the Minister of
     Minerals and Energy on 30 Augustus 2005. Referred to the Portfolio
     Committee on Minerals and Energy and the Select Committee on
     Economic and Foreign Affairs.

National Assembly

The Speaker

  1. Membership of Assembly
 1. The vacancy which occurred owing to Mr C B Herandien vacating his
    seat in the National Assembly with effect from 1 August 2005, has
    been filled with effect from 26 August 2005 by the nomination of Mr
    J Schippers.

 2. The following member will vacate his seat in National Assembly with
    effect from 1 September 2005:

    Nhleko, N P.
  1. Vacant position of House Chairperson
The position of House Chairperson occupied by Mr N P Nhleko becomes
vacant with effect from 1 September 2005, due to his resignation as
member of the National Assembly.
  1. Officials authorised to receive forms on floor-crossing
I hereby authorise the following officials to receive,  on  my  behalf,
all submissions regarding change of membership  of  political  parties;
mergers of political parties; subdivisions of  political  parties;  and
subdivisions that have merged with  other  parties,  occurring  in  the
National Assembly during the period 1 – 15 September 2005, in terms  of
item 4 of Schedule 6A to the Constitution:

Mr K Hahndiek, Secretary to the National Assembly
Mr M Xaso, Senior Procedural Officer (HP), National Assembly

B Mbete, MP
Speaker of the National Assembly


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

  1. The Minister of Labour
 a) Report and Financial Statements of the Food and Beverages
    Manufacturing Sector and Training Authority (Foodbev SETA) for 2004-
    2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
    Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 91-2005].
  1. The Minister of Arts and Culture
 a) Report and Financial Statements of the Market Theatre Foundation
    for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
    Financial Statements for 2004-2005.

 b) Report and Financial Statements of the National Film and Video
    Foundation for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-
    General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 144-2005].

 c) Report and Financial Statements of the Voortrekker Museum for 2004-
    2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
    Statements for 2004-2005.

 d) Report and Financial Statements of the Natal Museum for 2004-2005,
    including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
    Statements for 2004-2005.


National Assembly

  1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry on the Patents Amendment Bill [B 17 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 26 August 2005:

    The Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry, having considered the subject of the Patents Amendment Bill [B 17 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 17A – 2005].