National Assembly - 10 May 2004
MONDAY, 10 MAY 2004 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 10:02.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, thank you for that courtesy. I rise to draw the attention of the Chair and of the House to the provisions of Rule 23(2) of the National Assembly and to point out that this meeting is not in terms of the Rules and is, therefore, illegal and, therefore, should not proceed. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Hon members, there has been extensive consultation with parties about the need for the House to meet prior to the joint sitting of 11:00, which the House has passed the resolution on, to enable the House to formally consider a proposal that has since come up, to extend an invitation to Mr De Klerk to address the joint sitting.
In pursuance of this consultation, apart from telephonic interactions yesterday, I convened a meeting of all parties, which went on until the evening. In that meeting we established that all the parties, except two, supported the proposal that had been placed on the Table by the majority party.
Now, a point of order has been raised, correctly so, but I wish to say that the fact that the Rules do not always adequately provide for all possible eventualities is something that has to be handled as it arises, and we as the people who make the rules have to apply our minds as we have in the past, when such situations have arisen. Although the rules do not provide for the House to meet before 14:00 on a Monday, the circumstances in this case have appeared to require that an opportunity be created for the House democratically to exercise its authority in this matter.
I may add that, as I have said, there has been a previous occassion when the House met at an earlier time than that which the rules prescribed. On that occassion, the House was subsequently asked to condone the early starting time, and I actually intend that we should treat this matter accordingly; that as soon as an opportunity presents itself, the House should sit and look at the issue of this early starting time on this particular Monday and, therefore, deal with it as we have dealt with it previously.
On that basis, because of the range of issues that have arisen, the discussions among parties and the value that has been recognised to extending an invitation to former president F W De Klerk, I rule that the meeting should proceed.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, may I address you just on the one aspect, which is that the House should sit later to consider what is, in fact, a breach of the rules. Presumably, the House would then meet under the provisions of Rule 3(1).
May I say that as far as the official Opposition is concerned, it is entirely improper for the House to go ahead and meet when it knows that it’s in clear contravention of the rules, and hope that it can subsequently condone the matter. It is simply wrong, and the fact that all of the parties, apart from two, supported this doesn’t alter the fact that we are in breach of our rules. This meeting is, therefore, illegal and any decisions taken by this meeting are also illegal.[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, as I have ruled, the meeting proceeds and the views of the opposition will then be entertained in the process. However, of course, as you have already expressed them, they will be noted.
Order! Does any member wish to give notice of a motion? None. Are there any motions without notice? None. We now come to the motion on the Order Paper, in the name of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: There is no Order Paper.
The SPEAKER: Mr Hahndiek, is there no Order Paper? There is an Order Paper. We will make sure that every member gets the Order Paper.
INVITATION TO MR F W DE KLERK TO ADDRESS A JOINT SITTING OF PARLIAMENT
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party:
That, with reference to the resolution of the House on 6 May 2004, inviting former President Nelson Mandela to address a Joint Sitting of the Houses on 10 May 2004 in order to commemorate ten years of a democratic parliament, the House, subject to the concurrence of the National Council of Provinces, resolves also to invite Mr F W de Klerk to address the Joint Sitting.
The SPEAKER: Are there any objections?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Yes, Madam, there are objections.
The SPEAKER: There is an objection by the DA. Mrs De Lille?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam, are you going to put the point so that we can call for a division at the appropriate moment?
The SPEAKER: Mrs De Lille, will you wait till I put the question?
There is an objection, and therefore, I would like to hear all those who are in favour of the motion saying ``Aye’’.
Hon MEMBERS: Aye.
The SPEAKER: Those against should say ``No’’.
Hon MEMBERS: No.
The SPEAKER: A division has been called for by the DA and I will give an opportunity for declarations of vote. In fact, Mrs De Lille has already sent me a message that she would like to have an opportunity for a declaration of vote, and I would like to give that opportunity now.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I’m the one who called for the division. [Laughter.] I would imagine that all of the parties would like an opportunity of declarations, and it’s generally in the order from the ANC to us …
The SPEAKER: Fine. Do you mind, Mr Gibson, allowing me to chair? [Applause.] Mrs De Lille, if you do not mind, Mr Gibson would prefer to be the one who starts. So, Mr Gibson, we would like to give you the opportunity, if Mrs De Lille does not mind? Okay.
Declarations of vote:
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, the ANC has, through its thoughtless actions, embarrassed both former President Mandela and Mr De Klerk. What a pity it is, because instead of starting off as a joyous day and a joyous commemoration of ten successful years of governance, what we have is controversy about an important issue. This issue isn’t just one of personalities; it isn’t one of politics, but a rule-of-law matter. [Interjections.]
I want to say to you that when a parliament starts ignoring its own rules, when it starts abusing the power of the majority in order to get its will, then we are on a slippery slope in our country. Parliament must not ignore its own Rules. [Interjections.]
One of the Rules of this Parliament was that only heads of state may address a joint session, and that’s what we’ve done throughout the ten years. Other heads of government didn’t even address joint sessions.
We thought, when the proposal came about honouring former President Mandela in this way, that it was entirely appropriate that one should do it for the father of the nation and somebody who is our very honored President. He belongs to all of South Africa, and we were very happy to go along with it. [Interjections.]
At the last minute, on Friday evening, somebody gets the bright idea that Mr De Klerk should also be invited. I’m not sure why. He hasn’t been the president of a democratic South Africa. He does not represent everybody in South Africa who is not ANC and, in fact, he’s involved in politics at the moment and his party got 1,7% of the vote in the last elections! [Interjections.]
We, in fact, suggested that what might happen, if you wanted a representative meeting, is that you might well invite Dr Buthelezi and Mrs Helen Suzman as well, as representing the other strengths in South Africa. [Interjections.] Then you would have a representative … [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Instead of that happening and that being considered, we were told that, because I assume orders had come from on high, this matter just had to go ahead; the Rules of the House had to be ignored and if you didn’t like it, then have a meeting tomorrow to condone the breach.
That’s what the DA is objecting to. We say that we have a duty in this country to uphold the rule of law. People like us and like you and everybody here were sent to uphold the rule of law and to live by the rules, not to unilaterally change them, not to unilaterally disregard them and trample on them.
I want to say to members of the ANC that they should think again. If we want to be proud of our democracy and proud of our ten years, what we should also be is proud of what we do in Parliament - that we go by the Rules, and there are checks and balances, which are there to prevent the untrammeled majority from doing just what it likes. [Interjections.]
That is the reason. It’s a matter of principle for the DA. It’s not a matter of politics or of personalities. I’m shocked that on this tenth anniversary of the inauguration of Mr Mandela, the ANC would trample on parliamentary democracy. [Time expired.] [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Mrs P DE LILLE: Madam Speaker, I just want to put it on record, that this is not a reflection against the character of Mr De Klerk, the process of reconciliation or nation-building in this country.
The reason why I’m rising this morning is to say that we are concerned that we disregard the Rules of Parliament. Certainly, we are not setting a good example for the rest of the country. That is why we are concerned. We love president Mandela. We actually think that he should be honoured in a way befitting him as an ex-head of state. We think that he must get the honour that he deserves and that we should not dilute the occassion today by bringing in Mr De Klerk to, again, distort history. We are distorting history by what we are doing today.
However, we are certainly more concerned about the Rules, and that no party in Parliament should be allowed to violate the Rules. We cannot expect ordinary citizens out there to respect the institution if we violate our own Rules.
So, the ID is about the Rules, it’s about our Constitution and it is not about personalities. I want to commend Madam Speaker for the way in which she dealt with the matter last night. We were here until late last night, and she really tried to show the importance of the matter. However, in the end, what is critical to us is that we have violated the Rules of Parliament. Thank you. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Are there any other declarations of vote from other parties? I do want to point out that, as from 10:30, our guests will start arriving for the joint sitting. However, I’ll take the ACDP.
Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, the purpose of the proposed Joint Sitting is to have a celebration to commemorate 10 years of democracy. And it is in this spirit that we, as the ACDP, feel that because Mr F W de Klerk played a pivotal role in contributing in the democratic celebrations that we are having today, it is fitting and proper for him to address this House.
We understand that objections have been raised that we are breaking the Rules … [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, please give the member a chance.
Mr L M GREEN: But I think the explanation is quite clear: This House hasn’t sat and we haven’t come to a celebration meeting and impose that Mr De Klerk should speak to us. We have this very democratic meeting here today to decide whether we should allow him to address this House or not. The explanation given by you is accepted by the ACDP. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Madam Speaker, it is true that we are technically breaking the Rules. But I want to say that the Rules cannot hold Parliament to ransom. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order!
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: I will tell you why. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order!
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: I will tell you why, Madam. [Interjections.] I will tell you, just be patient. What I’m saying is that the Rules say that Madam Speaker can call a meeting of the National Assembly, but not before 2 o’clock. But, if there is consensus amongst all members, then you can have it earlier. This is based on precedent. But what can happen is that if 399 of us agree to have an urgent meeting in the morning and only one member says no, then we are effectively vetoed. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order!
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: What is good about this incident is that that Rule was exposed. [Interjections.]
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: I have … Mike, just a moment, you will get your chance. What I want to propose is that the Rules committee again look at the question where one member can veto 399 members. We have to change that Rule so that that cannot happen. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, hon members, today is another historic day in the life of our people’s democratic Parliament. This institution is taking part in celebrating the first decade of freedom and democracy in our country. As it does this, it remains cognisant of the brave collective efforts that all our people made to ensure the birth of democracy.
In the same measure, we continue to value highly the heroic efforts of those who led our people as they worked to reconcile themselves, forging a common nationhood and committing themselves to building a nonracial, nonsexist and prosperous future.
We take note of the objections from some parties. In this regard, we would like to draw the attention of the House to a precedent in the procedural developments in the National Assembly, Second Session of the Second Parliament - the period of January to June 2000, item 8 therein.
There is no denying that leaders of various parties and sectors all made valuable contributions. However, the two leaders in question did not lead just their parties; they were leaders of the broad forces contending for power. They led the process of change. There is no debate about this question. The whole world, including the Nobel Peace Prize Committee, recognised that historical fact.
We are confident that the noble effort that we are putting into strengthening our democracy and nationhood will continue to succeed and reflect our people’s deep love for peace and justice. Thank you. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 253: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Asiya, S E; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, P; Bici, J; Bloem, D V; Blose, H M; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dikgacwi, M M; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dodovu, T S; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Erwin, A; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Fubbs , J L; Gabela, L S; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gillwald, C E; Godi, N T; Gololo, C L; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M ; Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendricks, L B; Herandien, C B; Hogan, B A; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Johnson, C B; Jordan, Z P; Joubert, L K; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, C D; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lekota, M G P; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N ; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Maduma , L D; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahomed, F; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Manana, M N S; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Meruti, M V; Meshoe, K R J; Mfundisi, I S; Mgabadeli, H C; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mngomezulu, G P; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, M I; Motubatse- Hounkpatin, S D; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Njobe, M A A; Nkuna, C; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D; Pule, B E ; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramatlhodi, N A ; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September , C C; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith , V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, Annelizÿ; Vundisa, S S; Woods, G G; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L L; Zulu, B Z ; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 56: Blanchÿ, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Burgess, C V; Camerer, S M; Coetzee, R; De Lille, P; Doman, W P; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Greyling, L W; Haasbroek, S F; Harding, A ; Henderson, R K; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lee, T D; Leon, A J; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Masango , S J; Minnie, K J; Mncwango, M A; Mnyandu, B J ; Morgan, G R; Morkel, C M; Nel, A H; Ngema, M V; Nkem-Abonta, E; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smuts, M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swathe, M M; van der Walt, D; van Dyk, S M; Van Niekerk, A I; Vos, S C; Wang, Y; Waters, M; Weber, H; Zille, H.
Question agreed to.
Motion accordingly adopted.
The House adjourned at 10:28. ____ ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:
(a) Employment Equity Report of the Department of Water Affairs and
Forestry.
(b) Government Notice No 123 published in Government Gazette No
25979 dated 6 February 2004: Extension of time for general
authorisation No 2 in terms of section 36 of the National Water
Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).
(c) Government Notice No 140 published in Government Gazette No
25993 dated 6 February 2004: Board of Rand Water: Extension of
Service Area in terms of the Water Services Act, 1997 (Act No 37
of 1997).
(d) Government Notice No 225 published in Government Gazette No
26067 dated 20 February 2004: Notice in terms of section 50(4) of
the National Forests Act, 1998 (Act No 84 of 1998).
(e) Government Notice No 256 published in Government Gazette No
26090 dated 27 February 2004: Extension of time for general
authorisation No 2 in terms of section 36 of the National Water
Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).
National Assembly:
Papers:
- The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:
Report of the Kalahari East Water User Association to the National
Assembly: Payments made to the Land Bank by the Department of Water
Affairs and Forestry in terms of a Government Guarantee.