National Council of Provinces - 27 February 2003



The Council met at 14:05.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.


                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Me C-S BOTHA: Voorsitter, ek gee kennis dat ek namens die DA die volgende mosie sal voorstel:

Dat die Raad -

(1) versoek dat die agb Marthinus van Schalkwyk tans die tweede roterende adjunkvoorsitter van die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies van sy pligte onthef word tot tyd en wyl die ernstige aantyging teenoor hom in sy provinsie besweer word, aangesien die aansien van hierdie posisie deur die huidige toedrag van sake aangetas word;

(2) kennis neem dat hy vanmiddag, 27 Februarie, in die Wes-Kaapse wetgewer gekonfronteer word deur ‘n mosie van wantroue deur die Opposisie en dat hierdie nie ‘n stap is wat ligtelik geneem moet word nie; en

(3) verder kennis neem dat ernstige aantygings teen sy leierskap gemaak word, onder andere dat hy die Huis mislei het. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Ms C-S BOTHA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the Council -

(1) requests that the hon Marthinus van Schalkwyk, currently the second rotating deputy chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, be relieved of his duties until such time as the serious allegation against him in his province has been disposed of, because the standing of this position is affected adversely by the present state of affairs;

(2) notes that he is faced this afternoon, 27 February, in the Western Cape Legislature by a motion of no confidence by the Opposition and that this is a step that should not be taken lightly; and

(3) further notes that serious allegations have been made against his leadership, amongst others that he misled the House.

Mr C ACKERMANN: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: The hon member is misleading this House.


                         (Draft Resolution)

Dr E A CONROY: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes the extremely professional preparatory work by the National Treasury in the run-up to the Budget Speech by the Minister of Finance, also as evidenced on budget day by the neat, splendid and easily understood publications and information on the Internet; and

(2) conveys its appreciation to the Director-General and staff of the National Treasury.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


                         (Draft Resolution)

Dr P J C NEL: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council notes that -

(1) a camera system has recently been installed in the Medium B Section of the Grootvlei Prison outside Bloemfontein in order to combat corruption; (2) last year the Grootvlei Prison was often in the news owing to activities involving corruption and other irregularities between people in custody and the staff that were captured on video by cameras that had been smuggled in;

(3) the New NP believes that crime can only decline if corruption and crime within the Correctional Services are eradicated completely;

(4) this lawfully installed camera system of 16 cameras can monitor and record on tape the actions of people in custody and staff 24 hours per day;

(5) the New NP believes that the system could also play an important role in combating escapes; and

(6) recommends to the relevant Minister that similar systems should be installed in all prisons.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                         (Draft Resolution)

Me C S BOTHA: Voorsitter, ek stel sonder kennisgewing voor:

Dat die Raad -

(1) kennis neem dat -

   (a)   die  Viljoenskroon  balju  opdrag  gegee  het  dat   die   ANC-
       kiesafdelingskantoor in Viljoenskroon se  duur  meubels  verkoop
       word om onbetaalde skuld te delg;

   (b)  die DA se  kiesafelingskantoor  hierdie  meubels  teen  'n  baie
       billike prys bekom het;

   (c)  die DA sy dank uitspreek aan die ANC vir hul  finansiële  bydrae
       ten opsigte van die DA se kiesafdelingswerk; en

(2) terselfdertyd die swak bestuur betreur wat tot hierdie situasie gelei het. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)

[Ms C-S BOTHA: Chairperson, I move without notice: That the Council -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  the Viljoenskroon sheriff directed that the expensive  furniture
       in the ANC constituency  office  in  Viljoenskroon  be  sold  to
       discharge unpaid debts;

   (b)  the DA's constituency office purchased this furniture at a  very
       reasonable price;

   (c)  the DA  expresses  its  gratitude  towards  the  ANC  for  their
       financial contribution towards the DA's constituency work; and

(2) at the same time deplores the poor management that caused this situation.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Is there any objection to the motion? [Interjections.] There is an objection to the motion. In light of the objection, the motion without notice will now become notice of a motion.


                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr T S SETONA: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) welcomes the significant shift in the division of revenue to provinces and local government announced in this year’s budget;

(2) notes that the budget set aside more than R23 billion over the next three years to local government;

(3) believes this will significantly enhance the ability of local government to extend basic service delivery to poor households; and

(4) further believes the increased allocation to local government will provide municipalities with much needed resources to create the conditions necessary for sustainable local economic development.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                         THE 2003/04 BUDGET

                         (Draft Resolution)

Rev M CHABAKU: Deputy Chairperson, I would have loved to have done this in Setswana, but time is of the essence, so I will move this motion in English. I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) extends a unanimous vote of congratulations to Government, in particular the Minister of Finance Comrade Trevor Manuel, on a budget that is at the centre of Government’s resolve to continue to confront the challenges of poverty and underdevelopment in South Africa;

(2) congratulates members of the Council on contributions made by them in this regard;

(3) notes that this budget reflects the commitment of this ANC-led Government to the critical human resources development sector, given that 23,2% of non-interest expenditure will be invested in education, this country’s largest expenditure area;

(4) further notes that this budget considerably raises the level of funding for learning support materials, for the maintenance and building of schools and for the restructuring and transformation of higher education; and

(5) acknowledges that the 2003/2004 budget reaffirms President Thabo Mbeki’s assertion that in our country the tide has turned.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


                         (Draft Resolution)

Ms R P MASHANGOANE: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) welcomes the announcement by the Minister of Finance, Mr Trevor Manuel, that spending on safety and security will significantly increase, as reflected in this year’s budget;

(2) firmly believes the increase will significantly contribute towards the further improvement of our criminal justice system and will, in particular, make more resources available to respond to the serious challenges faced in terms of improving the protection of women and children in the criminal justice process; and

(3) commends the Minister for his dedication and commitment to making adequate resources available to our security services to enable them to create a safe environment within which social development can effectively take place.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, given the success of Parliament visiting the Eastern Cape, the Council has resolved to embark on a visit to the North West province. I therefore move:

That, notwithstanding Rule 21(2)(c) the Council in terms of Rule 21(2), resolves that in the interest of enhancing public participation as provided for in section 72(1)(a) and (b) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996 (Act No 108 of 1996), the Council will conduct a public hearing on Tuesday, 11 March 2003, and will sit in plenary on Wednesday, 12 March 2003 at the Mmabana Cultural Centre in Taung in the province of North West from 09:00 until the conclusion of the business of that day.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


                      (Subject for Discussion)

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, hon members, it is indeed gratifying that the House gives particular attention to the problem facing our children at this critical time of our history in South Africa and in Africa.

Children have become the priority focus of families, communities, members of Parliament and indeed of all sectors of our society, and more importantly of our Government. This is important given the fact that despite the constitutional rights, as well as the policies developed since the advent of democracy in 1994 in this country, children continue to be faced with serious violations of their rights.

Today’s debate focuses mainly on combating child abuse, child trafficking and child prostitution. The question is: Is it not about time that we should be confirming the constitutional rights of our children in this country?

Section 28(1) of our Constitution provides, among other things, that every child has the right to be protected from maltreatment, neglect, abuse or degradation, and exploitative labour practices. It also provides for socioeconomic rights for children, including the rights to basic nutrition, shelter, basic health care and social services.

The President of this country, in his national address in February 2001, said that no African child should ever again in Africa walk in fear of guns, tyrants and abuse; no child should experience hunger, avoidable diseases and ignorance; and no African child should ever again feel ashamed to be an African.

May I also remind hon members that our country is a signatory to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and the African Charter on the Rights and Welfare of the Child. These form the basis of our strategies as a country to combat these social ills faced by our country.

The Constitution, policies and programmes developed by the ANC since 1994 as a Government recognise that the child occupies a unique and privileged position in our society. They also recognise that, for the realisation of the full harmonious development of the child’s personality, the child should grow up in a family, societal environment and atmosphere of happiness, love, care and understanding.

According to the SA Police Service, they recorded that 55 580 cases of crimes against children were reported during the period 1 July 2001 to 3 September 2001. The SAPS report indicates an increase in reported cases of crimes against children. On the one hand, the number of reported cases indicates the seriousness of the problem that we face as a country. On the other hand, these numbers refer to the successes of Government’s awareness campaigns, such as Break the Silence, Sixteen Days of Activism of No Violence against Children and Women, and Child Protection Week. It is further reported that international syndicates are using South Africa as a transit point for a huge slave trade between the developing countries and developed countries in Europe, the United States of America and Canada. According to the police and immigration authorities in South Africa and the USA, the main sources of this human cargo are China, India, the Middle East, former East European countries and many countries in Africa.

Encouraged by stories of milk and honey, children are trafficked to and via South Africa to many developed countries. In South Africa these children are given false identity documentation and accommodation, and then are required to pay off their debt to their captors. The human trade syndicates have identified Johannesburg as a convenient centre to obtain fraudulent identity documents. South Africa also has direct links, flights and shipping routes to most countries in the developed world.

The issue of increased child prostitution also constitutes one of the major challenges the Government of our country has to deal with. In both urban and rural areas, especially where poverty and unemployment levels are high, child prostitution has manifested itself even more.

In essence, the problems of child abuse, child trafficking and child prostitution are interconnected and interrelated. Therefore, in addressing these problems, the Government is developing a comprehensive integrated policy and strategic framework. This integrated policy and strategic framework of the Government is underpinned by two areas of focus: firstly, prevention and, secondly, combating all crimes against children.

The main emphasis is on prevention. As members, are we aware that the main priority is to fast-track the passing by Parliament of comprehensive child care legislation during the course of this year? This legislation provides for more comprehensive protection of children exposed to commercial sexual exploitation, child pornography and the trafficking of children and other forms of abuse.

Other legislative measures that seek to promote and protect the rights of children include the following: The Sexual Offences Act, the Prevention of Domestic Violence Act and the Criminal Procedures Amendment Act. These Acts seek, amomgst other things, to give more protection to children from all forms of abuse by providing the victims with support and empowerment, introducing stringent bail conditions for suspects of crimes against children and imposing tougher sentences in respect of convicted perpetrators.

However, there are some challenges still facing our criminal justice system, which include the enhancement of the investigative capacity of the police in cases of crimes against children, and the state of successful prosecution. To this end, the Government has established special courts and specialised police units in almost all regional districts. The Government has put in place several measures to enhance the protection of children from conditions of vulnerability and abuse. These programmes include poverty relief, social security awareness campaigns, community diversion programmes for children in conflict with the law and moral regeneration.

These interventions are based on an integrated social prevention strategy in which individual families, communities and all sectors of society have to work together in partnership to prevent crimes against children. It is our hope, therefore, that this debate will further enhance these efforts. Accordingly, this debate should go beyond the limits of intellectual discussion and make concrete proposals that will further enhance our goals of providing integrated and sustainable services to our children. We owe it to them.

I hope after this debate hon members will participate in the broader campaign that is there to ensure that all children get whatever is necessary for and that is being provided by Government. If each and every member in each and every constituency were able to register, during the course of this year, at least 300 children in his or her own constituency or province, we would have gone a long way towards ensuring that all children under the age of seven are registered before the end of December this year.

We still have at least 1 000 000 to 1 500 000 children who are entitled to receive the child support grant who do not have it at the present moment. I think that as a Government and as a people, we have promised that we will ensure that each and every child is able to receive that grant in time and in dignity. But, more importantly, I would plead with hon members in this House to be part and parcel of the bigger campaign to ensure that all children between the ages of seven and eight who qualify for the grant are registered this year so that they may receive the grant. Members are aware that the Government has agreed, after it was instructed by the ANC conference in Stellenbosch, to increase that age from 7 to 14. I think it behoves every member to ensure that we are able to register each and every child in the phase that has been agreed within the next three years, so that they may receive the grant that he or she is entitled to, with their family, and also to ensure that all communities participate in the nutrition programme that Government is extending.

We have heard the Budget Speech yesterday. I think we should be part and parcel of ensuring that the noble aims that this Government is trying to put across reach the poorest of the poor. With that, thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M E SURTY: Deputy Chairperson, let me at the very outset thank the hon Ministers for their presence here today. The fact that they both wished to be present here is a clear indication of the seriousness with which they treat the matter. We are, indeed, grateful.

We know about the passion and commitment that they have for the vulnerable sectors of our society - the youth, the aged and persons with disabilities. They have publicly and privately demonstrated their will and commitment in ensuring that these very important and vulnerable sectors are protected, both in terms of the law and policy, and in terms of Government intervention. We thank them for that.

We are also aware that the hon Minister will have to address the National Assembly very shortly, and he will, at some time, and at his convenience and his judgment, be leaving us.

I’m sure the hon Minister Dr Skweyiya would be very pleased to note that next month, as we go to our provincial week, the key focus of our oversight is on the implementation of social grants. This will occur not only in one province, ie the Eastern Cape, but also in all nine provinces, where we would be engaging with various provincial governments, local governments and regional directors of Home Affairs. We’ve also discovered the close nexus between the issuing of identity documents and the payment of social grants. We hope that we’ll be able to provide him with a consolidated report which incorporates the findings, not only of the NCOP, but also of the provincial legislatures and local government which may be of some use to the hon Minister.

Last week on 19 February the English newspaper The Guardian carried a story with the headlines `` S Africa at centre of child sex trade’’. The newspaper article continued, and I quote:

South Africa has become a market for children sold into prostitution from Africa …

… as indicated by the hon Minister …

Europe and the Far East … Children from Angola, Mozambique, Senegal, Kenya, Ethiopia and Uganda, Eastern Europe, Thailand and China are being either lured or kidnapped to the country to become prostitutes in the streets of Johannesburg and Cape Town.

The newspaper article was based on a new United Nations report. In September last year a United Nations Special Rapporteur visited South Africa at the invitation of Government to investigate child abuse, child rape and child prostitution. Its final report was released last week and it will be presented to the United Nations Human Rights Commission in Geneva next month. We in South Africa should take this report very seriously indeed. I will come back to its recommendations and measure them against positive steps that have been taken by Government in this regard. But I first need to say a few words about trafficking and the sale of children in general.

In so far as trafficking in children is concerned, trafficking in human beings is one of the greatest human rights violations of our time. But trafficking in children for sexual exploitation, forced labour, forced marriages and forced adoption is also the world’s fastest growing criminal business. It has dangerous links to trafficking in drugs, arms, money laundering, and even terrorism.

No region is immune. No country acting alone can put an end to trafficking in human beings. We need a co-ordinated approach that integrates migration policy issues, judicial co-operation, law enforcement and human rights concerns, while at the same time being sensitive to the extreme vulnerability of the victims.

Research shows that human trafficking is particularly rife in postconflict areas, whether it is in countries of origin, transit or destination, or a combination of all three. The United Nations has gathered significant information about demand and supply chains and about the networks that organise and facilitate trafficking. The United Nations Special Rapporteur expanded on this information during his research trip here last year. These are some of his findings and recommendations.

On the human rights situation generally, that is pertaining to South Africa, he said, and I quote:

The Government of South Africa has made tremendous efforts in the eight years since the ending of apartheid to begin creating a culture of respect for human rights in the country. A remarkable level of progress, both in terms of legislation and policy development, as well as access to water, sanitation and electricity in many areas has now been achieved.

The hon Minister has also reflected on the rights of the child which are entrenched in our Constitution.

That is certainly welcome praise. His specific comments on children are less welcome. Concerning the rape of children, he had the following to say:

The rape of children, including very young children and babies in South Africa, is not a new phenomenon in the country. The increase in the reporting of rape cases is a welcome development, compared to the situation prior to the ending of the apartheid regime in 1994, before which time a very few of the many rapes occurring were ever reported.

His analysis is very similar to the recommendations of this House, and I do not intend repeating them as they are on public record.

Concerning the sale of children, this is what he said:

The issue of trafficking of children in South Africa has received very little attention, and ``trafficking’’ itself is not yet recognised as a criminal offence.

We are, indeed, grateful to hear the hon Minister talking about an integrated systematic approach to deal with this particular issue. Where there is legislation, it might mean that we have to extend the boundaries of legislation to incorporate this aspect, particularly with regard to the Criminal Procedure Act. The report continues, and I quote: However, there are reports of South Africa becoming both a receiving and transit country for child victims of trafficking, both from other parts of Africa and from Asian countries. The very desperate food shortage, particularly in countries bordering South Africa, is contributing to an increase in trafficking of children.

Concerning child prostitution, these are his findings:

High levels of poverty coupled with domestic abuse are forcing children, mainly girls, into prostitution. As the children’s grant ends when the child reaches the age of seven, many children drop out of school as their parents are unable to afford to pay school fees …

… and family friends might receive the children and offer to assist them in exchange for sex.

The Special Rapporteur made certain recommendations, and I think it’s important to look at these recommendations and to do so against the background of the positive and concrete steps that Government has made in this regard.

The first recommendation is, and I quote: Serious efforts need to be made to alleviate poverty and unemployment, as many acts of sexual violence against children appear to result from anger and boredom. Access to free adult education and skills training must be facilitated.

It is very clear that central to the programme of Government - and this is my comment - is pushing back the frontiers of poverty. In his state of the nation address the hon President clearly indicated the many ways in which it has to be done and in which it is being done, either through legislation or policy, in extending the social grant system, in targeting areas of poverty, in creating better job opportunities, in creating black economic empowerment, etc - the list goes on and on. In so far as Government is concerned, it has dealt with this matter with great resolve.

The second recommendation says, and I quote:

The grant of R130,00 per month which is currently given by the Department of Social Department to poor children up to the age of 7 should be extended … and that payment of school fees should be considered.] In this regard, again, we have a positive development. In April 2002 the child grant was, in fact, R130,00. It increased in October 2002 to R140,00, and it will progressively increase in February 2003 to R160,00.

In addition, as the hon Minister has correctly indicated, the age will be progressively increased to 14 years, which, in fact, deals adequately with the recommendation to show that Government has dealt with this issue with serious intent.

The third recommendation is that outreach work needs to be done to help children in prostitution, who are usually reluctant to come forward for assistance, believing that they would be criminally convicted. The position of Government, again, is very, very clear in so far as this is concerned. It is the view of Government, through the Law Commission in any way, that we should not criminalise child prostitution and that we should provide shelter. I know the hon Minister of Social Development is looking meticulously into this particular area, and it is an area of great concern that he has reflected on.

In so far as moral regeneration is concerned, that is another integrated effort which has cascaded to the provinces and local government and to all structures of the ANC where we are asked to volunteer in dealing with the social ills of our society and particularly help vulnerable children.

The fourth recommendation is that although there are many very different and committed actors working on behalf of children’s rights in the country, there are problems concerning the co-ordination of this activity.

Here, again, the Government has especially dedicated a position, ie the Minister in the Presidency, to deal with this matter. The hon Minister Essop Pahad is a spokesperson on the rights of the most vulnerable - children, persons with disabilities and women. This year this has been replicated in all nine provinces. Such a department exists in the office of each Premier and it has a particular focus on this matter.

But one of the recommendations that is made in addition is that we should consider a national centre on child abuse. It is one matter that we should perhaps give thought to because we believe it will be useful in that it will co-ordinate the activities of nongovernmental and community- based organisations in terms of ensuring their effectiveness, and it will assist the Minister in terms of his executive oversight and co-ordination and integration of this particular issue.

Although we have signed the Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the Sale of Children, Child Prostitution and Child Pornography in this Chamber not very long ago, we still have not ratified the Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish Trafficking in Persons, Especially Women and Children, supplementing the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organised Crime. It is our request that we give urgent attention to this matter, because it deals directly with this particular issue.

The Child Sexual Abuse Task Team - made up of various committees, given the spate of crimes against children - met in Parliament and public hearings were held. The task team recommended, and I quote:

… that further investigation into international trafficking in children, child prostitution and child pornography be commissioned by the relevant statutory bodies in order to obtain a clear picture of the extent of this problem … these bodies should brief the relevant parliamentary committees on their findings.

The question or the challenge that faces this House and the Other House is to what extent we have pursued the matter and what the developments are in obtaining more empirical data on this particular issue.

The task team also made a list of recommendations in relation to the issue of trafficking in children. Amongst other things, it said that there should be a general provision that criminalises trafficking in children. I am aware that the Minister of Justice, in consultation with the Minister of Social Development, has, in fact, proposed such amendment, which says that if a court finds that a child has been exploited or trafficked for commercial use, the parent of such a child must be deprived of the custody and care of such a child. Here again Government has taken positive steps in this regard, and it is an initiative and policy development within the Government. It deals with various other recommendations which we should look carefully, and I believe that many very useful recommendations have been made by this task team. However, the challenge that faces this House and the Other House is to what extent we have pursued, monitored and ensured their implementation. In fact, this is what the Minister said in his opening address, and that is that the policies are in place and the laws are in place, but to what extent are we ensuring that implementation of this exercise takes place.

The following relates to a very important area that we have discussed here previously, ie a sex offenders register. While talking about the task team’s recommendation, it is important to refer to the sex offenders register that Mrs Pandor, the Chairperson, proposed last year. Name them and shame them - that is the object of the register. The task team recommended the following:

… that the establishment of a register of sex offenders be investigated by a task team comprising the Departments of Correctional Services, Safety and Security, Social Development and Justice and Constitutional Development, and that this task team report to the relevant parliamentary committees. As public representatives we have a responsibility to follow up on the recommendations of this task team and to urge the executive to take special care of this. The Chairperson of the NCOP has, in fact, called for the establishment of such a register. We believe it will be a useful tool and aid for victim empowerment and will allow people the protection that is so necessary. We have to focus on our children, and a separate register will show that we mean to do just that.

Mr P M NKETU (Free State): Deputy Chairperson, hon Ministers present in the House, members of the House and colleagues from the provincial legislatures, the debate in the House affords us an opportunity as provinces to take stock of what has happened during previous years, and therefore demands of us to reflect on the challenges and problems confronting us.

Nine years after the watershed April 27 elections, given the depth of the problems we inherited, created over a number of centuries by the system of colonialism and apartheid, it is clear that it will take time and a united national effort to eradicate lawlessness, homelessness, landlessness, unemployment, HIV/Aids and poverty in our country.

With the eradication of the above as our urgent task, we must pay particular attention to close relationships between extreme poverty and particular crimes. This relates in particular to violence against women and children, murder and substance abuse. Though crime in general is on the decline, we are deeply concerned about the increase in social fabric crimes in our province. We in the Free State are investigating the possibility of establishing and increasing, in the coming financial year, specialised centres and shelters for victims of crime and abuse. These centres would be used by nongovernmental and community-based organisations, including volunteers.

Violence against women and girls should always be regarded as a human rights issue. Domestic violence is not a concern but goes to the roots of unequal power relations between men and women in society. Discriminatory sociocultural attitudes and economic inequalities reinforce women’s subordinate place in society.

It is therefore the responsibility of the state to put in place a legal framework within which the vulnerable in society are protected and decisive action is taken against perpetrators. In the past few years we have seen steady progress in the provision of services for abused women and children, and the training of law enforcement officials, members of the judiciary and social workers.

However, legal systems and increased budgets alone will not address a situation which is rooted in history and tradition. I also want to include religion, as I explain further. There have to be fundamental changes in attitudes. Society must respond with moral outrage to all forms of domestic violence and child abuse. Education, in this regard, should start at a very early age and teachers, spiritual leaders, traditional leaders and nongovernmental organisations should take the lead to ensure that programmes are put in place to reverse current trends.

HIV/Aids is having a serious impact on our communities. The burden of care for people living with HIV/Aids and Aids orphans falls very heavily on women, and some opt for prostitution, not as a choice but as a means of survival.

The rights of children is one area that remains undermined in our country, despite our signing of the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

What started as a routine divorce case ended with a High Court judge making legal history by refusing to play the role of nanny to the soul of a child whose parents were splitting. It was typical legal action such as is seen thousands of times a year in the courts, usually of interest only to the couple involved and their families. The judge noticed a paragraph which stated that both parties undertook to educate the minor in the Apostolic Church and to ensure that the child participates fully in all religious activities of the church. The judge refused to incorporate the paragraph as a court order and reminded the court that children have the right to choose their own faith.

In conclusion, I want to indicate that social disintegration, the breakdown of families, the impact of poverty, substance abuse, neglect and HIV/Aids are leading to larger numbers of children being orphaned and others being trafficked. It is therefore a challenge that rests upon provinces to ensure that members of the community protect the rights of children. They must ensure that people who abuse children get harsher sentences and that juveniles under the age of 14 are accommodated in places of safety, not in jail. I thank you. [Applause.]

Dr E A CONROY: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers Dr Pahad and Dr Skweyiya, hon colleagues, the children of the world are innocent, vulnerable and dependent. They are also curious, active and full of hope. Their childhood should be one of joy and peace; of playing, learning and growing. Their future should be shaped in harmony and co-operation. Their lives should mature as they broaden their perspectives and gain new experiences.

In reality children across the globe continue to experience a multiplicity of human rights violations, often at the hands of the very people who are supposed to nurture and protect them. Some children are sometimes even violated by people whom they trust. Our country is no exception. In recent months reports of incidents of sexual abuse against children have been on the increase. There is little guarantee, if any, that they will find safety at home, at school, or even at church.

We read reports of children being sexually abused by their parents and other family members. This is a sad indictment on us all, and should put to shame any society that values its children.

Although various structures at Government level are in place to address the issue of sexual abuse of children, laws and policies are not fully implemented yet. This can be attributed to a number of factors, which range from limited resources to a lack of knowledge about the nature of this issue. There is an assumption in South Africa that violence against and sexual abuse of women and children are personal and private matters, and therefore the political impetus to address this is not as crucial as the broader, global aspects of politics and economics.

The multidimensional phenomenon of sexual abuse of children in South Africa is beginning to receive much more attention than was the case in the past. The formation of various Government departments to address the different aspects of South African society has seen the role-players working in often isolated and compartmentalised entities with their focus on specific issues. Therefore, this becomes rather damaging, as one needs to view the issue in a holistic way, as it impacts on the legal, social, economic and health rights of children.

It is therefore important that all sectors monitor the trends and liaise with one another regarding the most effective ways to combat this problem. In this way, there must be mutual interconnected relationships between the various departments and other stakeholders.

Greater awareness programmes in communities must be established, such as the following. Courts should provide qualified social workers or psychologists, trained to work with abused children in a sensitive manner. The Child Protection Unit needs to employ more trained personnel in the area of child abuse. Educators who are perpetrators should not be granted bail, and not be allowed to teach again. Developmental programmes should address the needs of communities holistically, paying attention to strengthening social cohesion, making neighbourhoods safe, supporting vulnerable families and tracking developments in particular communities.

Developmental programmes, aimed at offering umemployed mothers employment, should have built-in mechanisms through which provision is made for safe childcare facilities for the children of those mothers at work. Social ills, such as alcohol and other substance dependency, should be addressed as part of a broader preventative strategy that focuses on rebuilding communities and strengthening families. A sustained public awareness campaign should be launched by Government and NGOs in order to highlight the importance of the community’s and the individual’s responsibility for the safety of all children in all communities.

A lot has been done, and must still be done, by the people of South Africa in this field. It is our hope and prayer that our country and communities become a safer and better place for our children, so that they can grow up in joy and peace. We owe it to them. Let’s love and adore them. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms M P THEMBA: Thank you Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members. Human rights belong to each and every one of us, including children. Abuse of children in any way is therefore a violation of human rights. Protection against any kind of abuse, including sexual abuse, is not a privilege, but a right any child is entitled to. It is therefore our responsibility as Government, as Parliament, as civil society and as NGOs to work together to ensure that the rights of our children are protected.

Our Constitution states clearly that every child has a right to be protected from malnutrition, neglect, abuse and degradation. The Minister has already said that. Further, the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which was ratified by South Africa in 1995, reflects that the state shall protect children from physical and mental harm, neglect, sexual abuse and exploitation. Clearly, abuse of children undermines all the laws we put in place as Parliament to protect our children.

The question, therefore, is: What is it that we have to do to ensure that our children are free from this kind of abuse? What is it that the different spheres of governance and the various departments can do to ensure that our society is safe for our children? It is every child’s right to grow up in a healthy and stable environment, filled with love and security, both financial and emotional. It is every child’s right to be nurtured, valued and cared for.

Children are supposed to be protected, guided, taught the difference between what is right and what is wrong, given a chance to be children, and not to be robbed of their youth and innocence, in order for them to grow up to be responsible adults who will have the wisdom to distinguish between what is wrong and what is right. Ironically, children are abused and raped every day in our democracy. Child prostitution, sexual abuse, child trafficking and child labour are alive and on the rise within our borders.

This makes one question the very direction our country is moving towards, for the children are our future, our hope for tomorrow. If we destroy them, we are destroying the future of our nation.

The number of reported cases has escalated to a point where one wonders what is happening to our society. Statistics released from the SA Police Service’s Child Protection Unit indicate that 15 732 cases of child rape were reported in 1998, and in 2002 the figure stood at 25 000. This clearly confirms that there has been a sharp increase in the number of reported cases of child abuse since 1998.

Bearing in mind the number of reported cases, it is of great essence to ask ourselves the following questions, regardless of which political parties we belong to, because I believe that abuse of children is a concern to all of us. How many unreported cases are there? How many children are not even aware of their rights, who are even scared to say something, for they fear that they might be harmed? How many victims are not receiving counselling, what is their fate and how many children are crying in silence with no one to listen to them? Researchers and organisations working with children suggest that the number of reported cases represents only a fraction of the real incidence of abuse.

Social workers and officers of the Child Protection Unit estimate that there are 28 000 child prostitutes in South Africa. For example, in Cape Town alone, the Sex Worker Advocacy Task Force estimates that 25% of sex workers are children. There has also been a sharp rise in the trafficking of children for sexual exploitation.

The question still stands: What can we do as Government, as Parliament, as leadership, as communities, as parents, as teachers and as religious leaders to ensure that this victimisation comes to an end? Surely, we cannot sit back and do nothing and hope that things will change in their own time! It is a fact that there are many laws protecting the rights of children, but the irony is that the number of these incidents is increasing regardless. One can mention the Sexual Offences Act, Act 23 of 1957, which prohibits people from having sexual intercourse with children; the Film and Publications Act, Act 65 of 1996, which makes it a punishable offence to create, produce, import or be in possession of a publication or film that contains a visual presentation of child pornography. The list goes on. Where are we failing our children? If our children cannot feel safe at home and in their neighbourhoods, where else can they feel safe? What is the root cause of this moral decay in our society?

It is clear that there is a major need for a workable, sustainable and comprehensive strategy to combat sexual abuse, exploitation and prostitution of children. There is a further need for more co-ordination of services between different spheres of governance, departments and agencies to work together in an integrated manner, for both preventative and protective measures and interventions, to ensure that the incidents of child abuse come to an end, and also that appropriate care is available for child survivors of these kinds of abuses, for, as we all know, violence begets violence. Therefore, the abused become the abusers and the cycle goes on.

The children of today are our future. They are our present and our tomorrow. They are the future leaders of tomorrow. If we invest in them, we are investing in the future and stability of our society, but if we destroy them, we are destroying our future, the very nerve of our society. Let us value our children, protect them, love them and not abuse them.

Let us join hands as a country and fight child prostitution, sexual abuse and sexual exploitation of children. Let us rid South Africa of these demons. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms C S BOTHA: Hon Chairperson and hon Minister, I have not yet found the emotional character to look at child abuse head on. When we screened the video of baby Tshepang in our caucus, it just served to increase my admiration for health workers and other individuals who get directly involved. It is that kind of compassion and strength which helps to address this horror.

Looking back on history, we must conclude that children are in many ways better off today than they were before. For example, lifespans have been increased, and human rights have become a legislated philosophy, notably in our Constitution. Working conditions have improved and schooling has become a matter of law rather than choice.

Despite this, the capacity for abusive behaviour seems an integral part of the human psyche. This is evidenced in the rape of babies where we are the leading perpetrators, exploitative child labour, the alarming increase in child prostitution and evidence of child trafficking and slavery. The ever- present variety of child abuse where persons who should be a child’s first line of defence against maltreatment are the perpetrators, is the most familiar.

Two exacerbating factors to these evils prevail. The abuse of children is, firstly, often tied to the need for money, either for survival or greed, and secondly, children are often abused in a familial pattern. The abuser was herself abused. These are two factors which we are not entirely helpless to contain.

Economic growth, with jobs, money for schools, health and welfare services, provides a society in which caregivers are not left without resources to care for a child. It is therefore essential that we allow economic policies which can supply jobs and install a government service which delivers unfailingly on welfare programmes.

The issue of abused children becoming abusing parents must also be countered. It may be a case of counselling services or additional care facilities. I do not know all the answers. But in the case of sex offenders, the DA is in favour of - as is our Chairperson Mrs Pandor, and as we have stated in this Council on previous occasions and has been repeated by the Chief Whip - a register of offenders being kept. Even if this is a flawed aid, whatever measures can be taken to prevent one child from being abused must be embarked upon.

What I also know is that all these measures cost money, and that goes back to the need for economic growth and proper analysis of public spending via a social policy agenda. This is a way of ensuring consistency between social commitments and allocated resources. It is putting children before guns. It is an aspect of the Budget process which has not been sufficiently explored.

There is another measure for combating child exploitation and that is the proper oversight role and commitment of parliamentarians. I have with me a report on the conditions and activities of child protection units produced by the DP MP Mike Waters, who personally visited all 45 child protection units across the country over a period of three months. I highly commend that it be read by all who have a genuine interest in the subject.

I would like to quote directly from his report, the five areas which the report suggests can be addressed by Government as a matter of urgency.

The first is the insufficient number of units nationally and the shortage of officers at the CPUs, which are far short of the optimal figures that the police themselves have determined. The second issue is the proportion of officers that have not undergone child protection training or specialised training of any kind. The third concern is the physical state of repair of CPU buildings, and the general facilities and resources available at CPUs, including office space, telephones, vehicles, support and forensic services. The fourth problem is the high number of cases officers have to investigate, sometimes more than 100 per officer, in these stressful conditions. The fifth issue is the unco-ordinated nature of the various Government departments, especially Health, Welfare and the justice system, which leads to the increased victimisation of the young and vulnerable.

The DA and the public have been assured that the ANC is doing all it can to help child victims. The evidence proves otherwise. It is all our children who are at risk. We all need to take Mike Waters’ example and recommendations to heart. [Applause.]

Mr J O TLHAGALE: Chairperson, honourable House and hon Minister, nothing in this world is more precious than our children. They are our flesh or it could be said that they are ourselves. In biblical terms we are required to love our neighbours as we love ourselves, but I contend that our children are much more than our neighbours. Therefore, they deserve to be loved much more than ourselves and our neighbours.

Our African idiom, which I suppose should have been adopted and owned by all South African populations, is ``your children are my children and my children are your children’’. Anything that disturbs the peace and wellbeing of our children is bound to disturb and hurt us beyond measure. In the countryside or rural areas, where I am from, when a fire breaks out and starts ravaging the veld, we run to the opposite side, where we kindle another fire which would then burn towards the oncoming fire. When these two fires meet, they die off. This is the best way to deal with a fire.

Another idiom goes: Molelo wa tladi o tingwa ka o mongwe. [A lightning fire is extinguished by another lightning fire.] This means that a fire caused by lightning is extinguished by another lightning fire. This in essence means we should fight fire with fire. We should be firm and uncompromising when it comes to the wellbeing of our children. We should deal the tormentors of our children appropriate blows that would deter future tormentors from repeating the same evil and satanic deeds.

I find it difficult to imagine a situation where nine males rape a 15-year- old child, as was reported in the news media recently. This is unimaginable and intolerable. No parent would tolerate this kind of behaviour. In a past debate on rape I referred to women’s organisations being so angry that they even recommended castration of perpetrators as the ultimate solution to the problem. I had also indicated my support for this measure. This is very serious and I stand by what I said then. If a man denies himself the enjoyment of the good things in life provided by nature, then he alone is to blame.

However, taking cognisance of the various degrees of child abuse, child trafficking and child prostitution, one would propose further that consideration should be given to our legislative framework to determine whether or not it is adequate to deal with these crimes and to request the courts to apply correspondingly heavy fines and sentences that would deter prospective criminals.

I am afraid that from my observation these crimes are on the increase, and the more we are being considerate, the worse the position is getting. [Applause.]

Mr T S SETONA: Deputy Chairperson, once more we are debating this topic which is essentially about the rights of children. I am quite sure that there is a national consensus across party-political lines, in terms of commitment and vision as to how we build a united front in dealing with the issue of child abuse generally, and more specifically the issue of child trafficking and child prostitution. Everyone has spoken and there is general agreement in the House.

There is no doubt that our Government is committed to dealing with this question of the rights of children. Yesterday’s Budget speech by the Minister of Finance attested to Government’s commitment by making a larger allocation, amongst other things, to the social security grant for children. The issues of poverty and underdevelopment are intrinsically linked to the issues of abuse, prostitution and trafficking of children. There is no doubt about that.

I want to disagree that there is an increase in child abuse in our country. I don’t think that is a correct approach. The correct approach must be that before 27 April 1994 no human rights culture existed in this country. Reporting, and our entire criminal justice system were not tailored to addressing issues regarding the fundamental rights of our people and children in particular. There was no reporting about these things. They have been happening in silence. The fact that we have more reports on these cases is an indication that our country, our people, our Government have been mobilised. They are conscious of this issue and are beginning to report these issues. I think we need to be proud of that. It is not cause for alarm but a positive development.

However, more must be done. I don’t think the Government alone can deal with this question. How do we translate the consensus visible in this debate today into a national front, in our own constituencies and communities, to mobilise our communities, and all social partners into a practical programme of action to deal with issues that are related to child trafficking, prostitution and abuse? I think that is the point that we need to examine beyond this debate. I think that is fundamental.

I agree with everything Mr Tlhagale has said, but I don’t think it is biblical to castrate a person. The Bible says: ``Thou shalt not kill.’’ I think we are quite correct to say that we need to tighten our criminal justice system with much more effective sentencing, but not castration. I don’t think that is the correct approach. I don’t think it will address the problem; rather, it is emotional and self-serving.

I really want to applaud in particular my colleague from the Free State, Sandra Botha, for her positiveness. The debate was not clouded by ideological and party-political lines. I think there is consensus. We are debating this issue also in memory of the late president of the ANC, Comrade Oliver Tambo, a father, a leader and a combatant, who has said that a nation that does not value its children does not deserve its future. I think all of us have said that. Hon Priscilla has said that, hon Tlhagale has said that and the Chief Whip has said that. We are doing this in memory of the legacy of that giant of our continent, Comrade Oliver Tambo. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, firstly I would like to thank the NCOP on behalf of Minister Skweyiya and myself for inviting us to participate in this debate. Secondly, I thank all the speakers who spoke here this afternoon.

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to start with hon member Mr Setona. I would like to agree with him that I think there is national consensus developing on this issue, which cuts across party-political lines. It would seem to me that, in the national interest, this is quite critical, that in so far as we have this national consensus we should protect and develop it. The question of dealing with child abuse, child trafficking and child prostitution is not one that should be reduced to party-political bun fights, and the fact that the NCOP debate today is contributing to that, I think, is a very good thing.

With regard to the suggestion made by the Chief Whip of the Council on looking at setting up a national centre on child abuse, let me say that this will be given serious consideration. I spoke to Minister Skweyiya before he left. He says that members can be assured that they will look at this.

There is no doubt that there is an increase in the number of cases that are reported, and it may well be that a whole set of other cases are not reported. A great deal of child abuse occurs within the family or indeed within the environment of the family. It is an ongoing struggle to convince, first of all, our own children that they should report this abuse, but also to convince ourselves that where our own adult members of the family may well be responsible for or involved in child abuse, we should not protect them. Part of the problem is that we protect members of our families when we know or are aware that they may be responsible for child abuse.

As a country we do not have an adequate picture of the nature and extent of child abuse, neglect and exploitation. We rely heavily on data collected by the SAPS, and even this data needs elaboration and interpretation. The paucity of data carries with it the danger that too often knee-jerk reactions to anecdotal evidence form the basis for policy and intervention. We must be resolute in dealing with child abuse but not be panicked into applying futile quick-fix remedies, including castration.

Moreover, the care of the child can never be simply a Government responsibility, and I think this has come out here today very clearly. It concerns a broad spectrum of civil society. Everyone must play their part.

It is a new struggle that faces South Africa, rooted in our Constitution - a struggle that touches every individual and family, every religious institution, every club and every school. The National Child Protection Register, which has been mentioned in this debate, established in terms of the Child Care Act, is in its pilot phase. We need to ensure that this register is functioning as a comprehensive tool for policy-making and intervention.

Let us not forget those who are particularly vulnerable, those with disabilities, girl children, and those in far-flung rural areas where the levels of neglect and abuse present bigger challenges. For those of us who live here in the Cape, just go to some of these wine farms over the weekend, and one will see the abuse that women and children are subjected to every weekend. When those adult males are drunk, they take out their frustrations and everything else on the women and the children.

Our vision should be to create and ensure safe, secure and caring environments for our children, both at home and at school, and wherever children gather. The immediate challenges are to reduce the incidence of child abuse, neglect and exploitation in whatever form. We must ensure that the rights of children are not just a vague national objective but also an individual adult responsibility and a realisable experience for each child in South Africa, Southern Africa and the world.

I would agree with those who made the point that the main emphasis must be on prevention. There was a proposal made here by Minister Skweyiya that every member should try to register at least 300 children. This is quite critical because there are constant stories about children who are not going to school. There is no reason why every single child should not be at school. No school - and I repeat, no school - or principal has the right to refuse to educate a child because that child’s parents cannot afford to pay the fees. It is against the law. There is no school that can hold back the giving of a school report because fees have not been paid. That is against the law.

If we are public representatives, I think it is part of our responsibility to go to those schools to ensure that those principals and school governing bodies that are abusing the law are themselves disabused of what we do. There is no reason why any child who is able to get to school should not be in school. In conclusion, let me say that it is our responsibility to roll back the frontiers of poverty. In rolling back the frontiers of poverty, we can and we must be in the position to create the kinds of conditions and circumstances in which all our children, wherever they are, whatever class or racial grouping they come from, whether they are from urban or rural areas, have the possibility to live their lives to their full potential. Let me once again thank the Chairperson and the NCOP for enabling us to participate in this debate. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 15:30. ____


                     WEDNESDAY, 26 FEBRUARY 2003


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces: The Speaker and the Chairperson:

  1. Introduction of Bills:
 (1)    The Minister of Finance:

     (i)     Appropriation Bill [B 8 - 2003] (National  Assembly  -  sec

     (ii)    Division of Revenue Bill [B 9 - 2003] (National Assembly  -
            sec 76).

           Introduction and referral  to  the  Portfolio  Committee  on
            Finance of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the
            Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of
            Joint Rule 160, on 26 February 2003.

           In  terms  of  Joint  Rule  154   written   views   on   the
            classification of the Bill may be  submitted  to  the  Joint
            Tagging Mechanism (JTM) within three  parliamentary  working

 (2)    The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:
     (i)     Compulsory HIV Testing of Alleged Sexual Offenders Bill  [B
          10 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75)  [Explanatory  summary
          of Bill and prior notice  of  its  introduction  published  in
          Government Gazette No 25029 of 21 February 2003.]

     Introduction, as well as referral to the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism
     (JTM) for  classification  in  terms  of  Joint  Rule  160,  on  26
     February 2003.

     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the  classification  of
     the Bill may be submitted to  the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism  (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:


  1. The Minister of Finance:
 (1)    The Budget Speech of the Minister of Finance - 26 February  2003
     [RP 22-2003].

 (2)    Estimate of National Revenue for 2003 [RP 19-2003].

 (3)    Taxation Proposals: Income Tax.

 (4)    Division of Revenue Bill [B  9  -  2003],  tabled  in  terms  of
     section 10(1) of the Intergovernmental Fiscal Relations  Act,  1997
     (Act No 97 of 1997).

 (5)    Budget Review 2003 [RP 21-2003], including:

     (a)      Taxation  proposals  in  respect  of  customs  and  excise
          duties; [tabled at 15:18] and

     (b)     "Annexure  E:  Memorandum  to  accompany  the  Division  of
          Revenue Bill",  tabled  in  terms  of  section  10(5)  of  the
          Intergovernmental Fiscal Relations Act, 1997  (Act  No  97  of

 (6)    Appropriation Bill [B 8 - 2003].

 (7)    Estimate  of  National  Expenditure  2003  [RP  20-2003],  which

     1. Memorandum on Vote No 1  -  "The  Presidency",  Main  Estimates,

     2. Memorandum on Vote No 2 - "Parliament",  Main  Estimates,  2003-

     3. Memorandum on Vote No 3 -  "Foreign  Affairs",  Main  Estimates,

     4. Memorandum on Vote No 4 - "Home Affairs", Main Estimates,  2003-

     5. Memorandum on Vote No 5 -  "Provincial  and  Local  Government",
          Main Estimates, 2003-2004;

     6. Memorandum on Vote No 6 - "Public Works", Main Estimates,  2003-

     7. Memorandum  on  Vote  No  7  -  "Government  Communications  and
          Information System", Main Estimates, 2003-2004;
     8. Memorandum on Vote No 8 - "National Treasury",  Main  Estimates,

     9. Memorandum on Vote No 9 - "Public Enterprises", Main  Estimates,

     10.      Memorandum  on  Vote  No  10   -   "Public   Service   and
          Administration", Main Estimates, 2003-2004;

     11.     Memorandum on Vote No 11  -  "Public  Service  Commission",
          Main Estimates, 2003-2004;

     12.     Memorandum on  Vote  No  12  -  "South  African  Management
          Development Institute", Main Estimates, 2003-2004;

     13.     Memorandum on Vote No 13 - "Statistics South Africa",  Main
          Estimates, 2003-2004;

     14.     Memorandum on  Vote  No  14  -  "Arts  and  Culture",  Main
          Estimates, 2003-2004;

     15.     Memorandum on Vote No 15  -  "Education",  Main  Estimates,
     16.     Memorandum on Vote No 16 - "Health", Main Estimates,  2003-

     17.     Memorandum on Vote No 17 - "Labour", Main Estimates,  2003-

     18.     Memorandum on Vote No 18 - "Science and  Technology",  Main
          Estimates, 2003-2004;

     19.     Memorandum on Vote  No  19  -  "Social  Development",  Main
          Estimates, 2003-2004;

     20.     Memorandum on Vote No 20  -  "Sport  and  Recreation  South
          Africa", Main Estimates, 2003-2004;

     21.     Memorandum on Vote No 21 -  "Correctional  Services",  Main
          Estimates, 2003-2004;

     22.     Memorandum on Vote No 22 - "Defence", Main Estimates, 2003-

     23.      Memorandum  on  Vote  No  23  -  "Independent   Complaints
          Directorate", Main Estimates, 2003-2004;

     24.     Memorandum on Vote No  24  -  "Justice  and  Constitutional
          Development", Main Estimates, 2003-2004;

     25.     Memorandum on Vote No 25  -  "Safety  and  Security",  Main
          Estimates, 2003-2004;

     26.     Memorandum on Vote No 26 - "Agriculture",  Main  Estimates,

     27.      Memorandum  on  Vote  No  27  -   "Communications",   Main
          Estimates, 2003-2004;

     28.     Memorandum on Vote  No  28  -  "Environmental  Affairs  and
          Tourism", Main Estimates, 2003-2004;

     29.     Memorandum on Vote No 29 - "Housing", Main Estimates, 2003-

     30.     Memorandum on Vote No 30 - "Land Affairs", Main  Estimates,

     31.     Memorandum on Vote No 31  -  "Minerals  and  Energy",  Main
          Estimates, 2003-2004;

     32.     Memorandum on Vote No  32  -  "Trade  and  Industry",  Main
          Estimates, 2003-2004;

     33.     Memorandum on Vote No 33  -  "Transport",  Main  Estimates,

     34.     Memorandum on Vote No 34 - "Water  Affairs  and  Forestry",
          Main Estimates, 2003-2004.
  1. The Minister of Public Works:
 (a)    Report and Financial Statements  of  the  Construction  Industry
     Development Board  for  2001-2002,  including  the  Report  of  the
     Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002.

 (b)    Report and Financial Statements of the  Independent  Development
     Trust for 2001-2002, including the Report  of  the  Auditor-General
     on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002.

                     THURSDAY, 27 FEBRUARY 2003


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:


  1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:
 Submission of the Financial and Fiscal Commission on  the  Division  of
 Revenue Bill for 2003-2004,  tabled  in  terms  of  section  9  of  the
 Intergovernmental Fiscal Relations Act, 1997 (Act No 97 of 1997).
  1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:
 (a)    A notice to alter the area of  jurisdiction  for  which  a  High
     Court has been  established,  in  terms  of  section  2(2)  of  the
     Interim Rationalisation of Jurisdiction of High  Courts  Act,  2001
     (Act No 41 of 2001).

 (b)    Report regarding the Alteration of the Areas of Jurisdiction for
     which High Courts have been established.

 (c)    South African Development  Community  Protocol  on  Extradition,
     tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

 (d)    South African Development Community  Protocol  on  Mutual  Legal
     Assistance in Criminal Matters, tabled in terms of  section  231(2)
     of the Constitution, 1996.

 (e)    Explanatory memorandum to the Protocols.
  1. The Minister of Public Works:
 Report and Financial Statements of the  Independent  Development  Trust
 for 2000-2001, including the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
 Financial Statements for 2000-2001 [RP 154-2001]. COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Council of Provinces:

  1. Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the Explosives Bill [B 43B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 26 February 2003:

    The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the subject of the Explosives Bill [B 43B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports the Bill with proposed amendments, as follows:

                            CLAUSE 1
    1. On page 4, from line 10, to omit the definition of “explosion” and to substitute:

      “explosion” means a chemical reaction involving the production of gases at such a speed, temperature and pressure as is likely to cause damage to the surroundings; CLAUSE 22

    2. On page 11, in line 32, to omit “or detonates” and to substitute “, detonates or initiates”.

                        CLAUSE 23
    3. On page 12, from line 1, to omit paragraph (a) and to substitute:

      (a) “explosives” includes any container, apparatus, instrument, incendiary device or any part thereof or article which contains any inflammable substance which has been adapted so that it can be used to cause an explosion or a fire; and

                        CLAUSE 28
    4. On page 14, after line 32, to add:

      (5)(a) In the absence of  evidence  to  the  contrary  which   raises reasonable doubt, any person  found  in  possession  of   explosives under such circumstances  as  to  give  rise  to  a   reasonable suspicion that  he  or  she  intended  to  use  the   explosives for the purpose of injuring any person or  damaging   any property, is guilty of an offence.
      (b)    For  the  purposes  of  paragraph  (a),  "explosives"   includes  any  container,  apparatus,  instrument,  incendiary   device or any part  thereof  or  article  which  contains  any   inflammable substance which has been adapted so that it can be   used to cause an explosion or a fire.
                        CLAUSE 29
    5. On page 14, in line 53, after “28(4)” to insert “or (5)”.