TUESDAY, 11 NOVEMBER 2003 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:03.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

DIET PROPOSED BY MINISTER OF HEALTH FOR PEOPLE LIVING WITH HIV/AIDS SAID TO BE RAISING FALSE HOPES

                         (Notice of Motion)

Mr M WATERS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move:

That the House - (1) notes that the SA Medical Journal has found that the diet proposed by the Minister of Health for people living with HIV/Aids is of no use in altering the course of the disease and, in fact, might harm the health of patients; and

(2) censures the Minister for raising false hopes by promoting a concoction of garlic, virgin olive oil and the African potato plant as a treatment, while dragging her heels on the antiretroviral roll- out which offers real hope for retarding the progression of the disease.

Agreed to.

The SPEAKER: Notice will be taken.

                         VOTER REGISTRATION

                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I hereby move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  the Independent Electoral  Commission  conducted  a  weekend  of
       national voter registration on 8 and 9 November 2003; and


   (b)  on these days thousands of South Africans registered  as  voters
       and many more checked whether they are correctly  registered  as
       voters;

(2) commends all those South Africans who made sure that they are in a position to exercise their democratic right to determine our country’s future;

(3) calls upon all South Africans to -

   (a)  continue registering as voters in the voting district where they
       live; and


   (b)  change their registration to a new voting district  should  they
       have moved since the elections of 1999 or 2000;

(4) commends the management and staff of the IEC for their efficient and dedicated work; and

(5) urges all sectors of our society to continue contributing to the national effort to deepen democracy in our country.

Agreed to.

               RAMADAAN MUBARAK WISHES FOR ALL MUSLIMS

                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House - (1) notes that -

   (a)  during the holy month of Ramadaan, Muslims in South  Africa  are
       abstaining from food and drink from dawn to dusk and are engaged
       in prayers and meditation in mosques throughout our country; and


   (b)  fasting in this holy Muslim  month  creates  awareness  of,  and
       solidarity with, the poor and needy, encouraging charity and the
       sharing of basic needs; and

(2) wishes all Muslims a Ramadaan Mubarak.

Agreed to.

ALTERATION OF MOTION ON ORDER PAPER: REFERRAL OF MEDIUM-TERM BUDGET POLICY STATEMENT, ETC. TO PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND JOINT BUDGET COMMITTEE FOR CONSIDERATION

                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, I move the draft resolution printed in his name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and related papers, upon tabling, be referred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance and the Joint Budget Committee for consideration in accordance with their respective mandates.

Agreed to.

                 ANC-LED GOVERNMENT IMPROVES ECONOMY

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr S M RASMENI(ANC): Madam Speaker, the ANC has managed not only to hold the country’s economic decline, but also to turn the ecomony around from the negative per capita growth rate in the decade before 1994. The economy has grown since then at the average rate of 2,8%. The people of South Africa have, through working together, turned the economy around.

When the first democratically elected Government of South Africa assumed the reigns of power in 1994 the economy was in a state of near terminal decline. Confidence in the economy has reached record high levels. The Sacob Confidence Index and the Rotas Econometer last month both measured a surge to record highs.

On the side of delivery to our people change is also visible. Last Friday, 7 November, the editorial of the daily newspaper This Day had this to say on Government’s delivery methods:

A large number of our people previously denied basic services are now able to access water, electricity, housing and education.

This is a fact. Those who say something to the contrary are trying to mislead people and the world. The victories we have fought serve to emphasize the need to continue working together as a country and a people, to seek solutions to the challenges that still confront us. [Time expired.]

     VOTING RIGHTS FOR SOUTH AFRICANS WHO ARE TEMPORARILY ABROAD

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr I J PRETORIUS (DA) Madam Speaker, I announced that I am tabling a Private Member’s Bill to amend the Electoral Act. The purpose is to make it possible for South Africans who are temporarily abroad on holiday, on business or for study purposes to cast their votes. That was the original intention of the Minister of Home Affairs and the majority view of the members of the portfolio committee. What a pity that the ANC leadership interfered and forced the committee to back down. I warned that the democratic right of the people of South Africa to vote was being removed by the ANC and that was a sad day for South Africa.

I understand that the ANC is having second thoughts after representations by the DA and other political parties. The Electoral Act should not be controversial. It should ideally be negotiated and agreed to between all significant parties. Instead of introducing an amending Bill, I suggest that my Private Member’s Bill be taken over by the Minister and then put through Parliament urgently.

                         CERTIFICATE OF NEED

                        (Member's Statement)

Dr R RABINOWITZ (IFP): Madam Speaker, the requirement prescribing that doctors must apply to the director-general for a certificate of need has already resulted in the Prescribing Doctors’ Association taking Government to court. A similar requirement in the National Health Bill for all health practioners to apply for a certificate of need is causing widespread concern among the medical fraternity, resulting in doctors moving their services away from South Africa.

Some practise overseas for part of the month while they live in South Africa, while others are leaving South Africa to settle overseas. The certificate of need therefore will have the opposite effect to the one desired of moving doctors out to underserved areas. The IFP strongly opposes the certificates of need and calls on Government, before the regulations for the National Health Bill are promulgated, to consider the alternative ways we have proposed for improving the number of health practitioners in underserved areas.

The IFP advocates the following measures: Firstly, to offer incentives to doctors to practise in rural and underserved areas. Secondly, to apply fair and objective criteria for registration and licensing of health professionals. Thirdly, to spend increased Government money in rural and underserved areas with the co-ordinated rural development programme. Fourthly, to offer contracts to health NGOs and top private health companies to manage rural clinics and hospitals. Fifthly, to change the narrow approach to foreign qualified doctors, which encourages mainly Cubans to strengthen our complement of doctors in rural areas. This balanced approach, which combines regulation, private and public partnerships and freedom of choice, will benefit all concerned and have the effect that the certificate of need is supposed to have, but doesn’t.

                         VOTER REGISTRATION

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr B M SOLO (ANC) Madam Speaker, the 8 and 9 November were set aside for the voter registration. This was done in preparation for next year’s general elections. We want to thank all those South Africans who went out to register in order to vote and those who checked whether their names still appear on the voter’s roll.

As South Africans we want to have free, fair and well-organised elections next year. If this objective is to be realised, we all need to go out and check if our names are on the voter’s roll or re-register if we have changed our place of residence.

Furthermore, voters need to register and people must register in their area of residence. We call on all our people to visit their local municipal offices to check their names any time during the week. Throughout the history of our liberation struggle and the reconstruction of our country the youth have played a central role in shaping and determining the destiny of our country. The youth of our country cannot afford to miss the opportunity to register and finally vote for a Government of their choice. We cannot afford to betray the rich legacy of our past. We call upon everyone to register now and vote for the ANC next year. I thank you. [Applause.]

                         OPPOSITION POLITICS

                        (Member's Statement)

Dr B L GELDENHUYS (Nuwe NP): Agb Speaker, met die verkiesing wat oor vyf maande plaasvind, is dit baie belangrik om die rol van opposisiepolitiek in Suid-Afrika onder die loep te neem.

Vandat die ANC hom verbind het tot ‘n hoofsaaklik markgerigte ekonomie, staan geen politieke party wat hom regs van die ANC posisioneer ‘n kans om die volgende regering te vorm nie. Met ander woorde, die agb Leier van die Amptelike Opposisie se kans om die volgende President te word, is net mooi nul. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Sonder om deel te wees van die besluitnemingsprosesse kan ‘n opposisieparty nie ‘n enkele huis bou nie, nie ‘n enkele werkgeleentheid skep nie en allermins misdaad beveg - soos wat die DA voorgee hulle gaan doen.

In ‘n land soos Suid-Afrika waar huidige politieke opponente mekaar letterlik vanuit die loopgrawe beveg het in ‘n lae-intensiteit oorlog, is die Britse model van opponerende politiek in elk geval nie geskik vir Suid- Afrika of vir nasiebou nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]

‘n Konsensus-soekende model van samewerkende regering, in terme waarvan minderheidspartye met behoud van identiteit inspraak kan kry in die besluitnemingsprosesse, is veel meer geskik vir Suid-Afrika. Dit stel minderheidspartye in staat om effektief iets vir hul ondersteuningsbasis te doen. Dís wat die ooreenkoms tussen die ANC en die Nuwe NP behels, en daarom kon die Nuwe NP op sy registrasieplakkate skryf, ``Laat jou NNP-stem tel’’. [Applous.] [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Dr B L GELDENHUYS (New NP): Hon Speaker, with the elections that are taking place in five months’ time it is very important to examine closely the role of opposition politics in South Africa.

Ever since the ANC committed itself to a primarily market centred economy, no political party that positions itself to the right of the ANC stands a chance of becoming the next government. In other words, the chance of the hon Leader of the Official Opposition becoming the next President is just about zero. [Interjections.]

Without participating in the decision-making processes an opposition party cannot build a single house, create a single job opportunity and least of all fight crime - such as the DA maintains that they are going to do.

In a country such as South Africa, where current political opponents were literally fighting one another from the trenches in a low intensity war, the British model of opposing politics is in any case not appropriate for South Africa nor for nation-building.

[Interjections.]

A consensus-seeking model of co-operative government, in terms of which minority parties, retaining their identity, can participate in decision- making processes, is far more appropriate for South Africa. It enables minority parties to do something effectively for their support base. This is what the agreement between the ANC and the New NP entails, and for that reason the New NP could write on its registration posters, ``Laat jou NNP- stem tel’’. [Applause.] [Interjections.]]

The SPEAKER: Order! Elections have not been announced as yet, hon members. Order!

    CORRUPTION IN LIQUIDATION INDUSTRY AND MASTERS BUSINESS UNIT

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr S N SWART (ACDP): Madam Speaker, the ACDP calls for a full inquiry into allegations of nepotism and widespread corruption in the liquidation industry. Such an inquiry could be based on the Jali Judicial Commission into alleged corruption in the Department of Correctional Services.

According to the Chief State Law Adviser, Mr Enver Daniels, who is acting head of the Masters Business Unit in the Department of Justice, corruption is so widespread that liquidators and civil servants often see nothing wrong with it''. Mr Daniels says that incentives are passed by corrupt liquidators to equally corrupt staff in the Masters Business Unit. He was shocked and surprised’’ at the extent of corruption in the unit - finding a sense of almost lawlessness at the Master’s office in Pretoria.

The ACDP also requests that the allegations of corruption by deputy director-general and former Masters Business head, Mr Tshishonga, be investigated, as well as whether any impropriety was involved in his transfer away from the Masters Business Unit, following his allegations of nepotism against the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development. These allegations are of a very serious nature and require a full and comprehensive investigation.

If the Hefer Commission of Inquiry can be held at great public expense to investigate spy claims, surely it is in the public’s interest that a commission be set up to investigate this industry, worth R18 billion annually. Thank you.

                  SOCIALIST INTERNATIONAL CONGRESS

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr G P MNGOMEZULU (ANC): Madam Speaker, earlier this month a delegation of the ANC, led by President Thabo Mbeki, attendend the 22nd Congress of Socialist International, the world’s largest organisation of political parties.

This organisation consists of some of the most progressive parties of all countries. The 22nd congress met under the theme: ``The return of politics for just and responsible governance; for globalistion governed by the people’’.

Under this theme, and in pursuance of Socialist International’s commitment to progressive transformation globally in order to address the interests of the poor, the congress discussed a wide range of subjects, including the multilateralist system of governance; the world economy, including the struggle against poverty; gender equality and the emancipation of women; and the strengthening of democracy.

The ANC supports the call by Socialist International for united action to promote a new world order, based on a new multilateralism for peace, security, sustainable development, social justice, respect for human rights and gender equality.

We do so, because the successful resolution of all these problems relates directly to the task of the renewal of our country and continent and the provision of a better life for all our people and all the poor of the world. I thank you.

                       NATIONAL AIDS STRATEGY

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr G T MADIKIZA (UDM): Madam Speaker, the UDM welcomes the editorial in the most recent edition of the South African Medical Journal, which states clearly and unambigiously that there is a lack of evidence supporting the benefits of lemon juice, garlic and olive oil salad dressing, something which the Minister of Health continues to peddle as a solution for people living with HIV/Aids.

The continued absence of a comprehensive national strategy to deal with HIV/Aids is an indictment of the Government, given that hundreds of people die weekly and millions more are infected with the disease.

What this editorial reflects is the growing frustration of South African health care professionals with the foot-dragging, delays and procrastination by Government when it comes to HIV/Aids.

The UDM anxiously awaits the announcement of the medium-term budget policy statement this week by the Minister of Finance. This will provide an opportunity to evaluate exactly what priority Government really attaches to the fight against this pandemic. Thank you.

                         VOTER REGISTRATION

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr I S MFUNDISI (UCDP): Madam Speaker, there is no doubt that South Africans are gearing themselves for the 2004 elections, but not all people are excited about the matter. We have noticed some reluctance, apathy and in some cases vocal rejection regarding the registration process, because of some or other promise that was not fulfilled.

One issue that is being played down by the Government is the one around the cross-border municipalities. So far, people living in these areas are not sure in which, and for which, province they will be voting. On enquiry into this matter, people are sent from pillar to post. The IEC says that they are sticking to the demarcation as approved and accepted, despite the fact that this was meant for the local government elections in 2000.

Some parties may be aware of what is going on, while others are in the dark. We call for transparency on the matter, as lack thereof would affect preparations for the elections. If the affected areas are to be incorporated into the provinces to which those municipalities belong, the time has come for all interested parties and the general public to know the facts.

Statements by people in high places to the effect that such incorporations would take place have been bandied about without much substance in them. We believe the time has come for such incorporation, necessitating an amendment to the Constitution if the boundaries of provinces are going to be affected.

People cannot be made to live in doubt and remain uncertain to which province they have to give allegiance. The bad status they have assumed has to be ended, so that when they go to the elections they know whether they belong to this or that province.

The UCDP calls on those keeping the information and the fate of the people living in cross-border municipalities to stand up and speak out on this matter. I thank you. PARTICIPATION OF WOMEN IN AFRICAN PARLIAMENTS

                        (Member's Statement)

Ms S D MOTUBATSE-HOUNKPATIN (ANC): Madam Speaker, Africa has produced a world leader in terms of women representation in parliament. Rwanda tops the Inter-Parliamentary Union world ranking of women in national parliaments. After the result of the recent elections in Rwanda, women now comprise 48,8% of the National Assembly of this African country.

We would like to express our elation at the manner in which the democratic process is evolving in Rwanda, putting at the top of its agenda the role of women and placing them in their rightful position as decision-makers in society. These positive developments take place against a backdrop of the world average of women’s participation in public representative work having reached one of its highest ever levels.

As the ANC, having championed and fought for gender equality and the emancipation of women for decades, we believe that these developments are indeed very good news. We commend the people of Rwanda for blazing the trail towards gender equality and proportionate representation between women and men. This positive step must now be solidified by the creation of a culture which values, fundamentally, the equality of men and women in all sectors of their society. I thank you. [Applause.]

           PUBLIC KEPT IN THE DARK ABOUT CRIME STATISTICS

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr D H M GIBSON (DA): Madam Speaker, six weeks ago the report of the Commissioner of Police was published. It contained crime statistics and trends which were between 18 months and six months out of date. The commissioner and the Minister have up-to-date statistics; they get them every week. But MPs, members of the portfolio committee and the public are kept in the dark.

The Minister is a very nice man. What a pity it is that his background is antidemocratic! He believes that Big Brother knows best. His big brothers were Stalin, Khrushchev and Brezhnev.

My tradition believes that it is not the state but the people who count. My tradition believes that the individual human being knows what is good for her, far better than any Cabinet Minister. [Interjections.] The people are entitled to know the crime trends, and tomorrow I will be serving on the hon Minister a new request in terms of the Promotion of Access to Information Act. The people have the right to know, and the Minister is wrong to treat adults like children.

                       ARRIVAL OF SAS AMATOLA

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr N S MIDDLETON (IFP): Madam Speaker, ever since the Government decided to embark on the strategic arms procurement process, the issue has been at the very top of our national agenda. Controversy has dogged the entire process. Allegations of corruption have been made and investigated, and still many questions remain unanswered.

On the other side of the coin, there was some good news last week as the first of the SA Navy patrol corvettes, built in Germany, entered our waters and docked in Simon’s Town. The SAS Amatola was delivered on time and can now be fitted locally to become operational.

Further good news is that three quarters of the ship’s combat system will be built by South African companies, and that an additional 10 local companies participated in the construction of the hull and the ship’s machinery. All that must surely translate into employment opportunities in and the maintenance of hi-tech skills for use in the South African arms industry. Another three of the German-built corvettes will be delivered in years to come, together with German-built submarines.

In the final analysis, these acquisitions will ensure that the SA Navy can yet again execute its mission in our territorial waters, be in a position to retain the already trained personnel and embark on training a generation of sailors known as ``terras’’.

                         VOTER REGISTRATION

                        (Member's Statement)

Ms M M MAUNYE (ANC): Madam Speaker, the ANC wishes to thank the multitudes of South Africans that registered over the past weekend as voters and the others that checked their status in this regard. We thank these South Africans for taking their future into their own hands. They have, through this process, ensured that they have placed themselves in a position to be ready to contribute to the process of deepening our hard-won democracy.

The ANC believes that the ongoing process of transformation and reconstruction needs to be driven by the people. The people need to decide which direction this process should take and which organisations should have the mandate to undertake this process in Government.

We urge all South Africans, particularly the youth, to register and to participate in the elections in great numbers to ensure that they direct the future they will live in. Let us register now. Our future is in our hands. Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]

                            POLICE ACTION

                        (Member's Statement)

Mnr J SCHIPPERS (Nuwe NP): Speaker, die heldhaftige optrede van die 26- jarige polisievrou, konstabel Vanana Makutle, vereis eervolle vermelding, want nie net het sy haar lewe op die spel geplaas toe sy 27 gevaarlike misdadigers voorgekeer en na hulle selle teruggedwing het toe hulle probeer ontsnap het nie; sy het dit ook vrou-alleen gedoen.

Té gereeld hoor ons van korrupsie in die SAPD, asook van polisielede wat self met kriminele vervolging te kampe het. Die vrot appels mag nie toegelaat word om die SAPD in ‘n slegte lig te stel nie.

Konstabel Makutle is ‘n aanwins vir die SAPD en haar optrede stel ‘n voorbeeld vir ander polisielede. Ons polisiemanne en -vroue werk onder baie moeilike, stresvolle omstandighede en word daagliks gekonfronteer met lewensgevaarlike situasies. Die optrede van konstabel Makutle wys dat getalle alleen nie nodig is om misdadigers vas te vat nie, maar dat toewyding en die regte gesindheid ‘n 26-jarige konstabel in staat kon stel om 27 gevaarlike misdadigers na hulle selle terug te dwing.

Dit is polisielede van konstabel Makutle se kaliber wat ons in staat sal stel om die stryd teen misdaad te wen, en ons glo dat haar optrede haar kollegas sal aanspoor om haar voorbeeld te volg. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)

[Mr J SCHIPPERS (New NP): Speaker, the brave conduct of the 26-year-old policewoman, constable Vanana Makutle, demands honourable mention, because she not only endangered her own life when she apprehended 27 dangerous criminals and forced them back to their cells when they tried to escape; she also did it single-handed.

Too often we hear of corruption in the SAPS, as well as of members of the police who are facing criminal prosecution themselves. The rotten apples must not be allowed to put the SAPS in a bad light.

Constable Makutle is an asset to the SAPS and her conduct sets an example to other members of the police. Our policemen and women work under very difficult, stressful conditions and are confronted daily with perilous situations. The conduct of constable Makutle shows that numbers alone are not needed in order to clamp down on criminals, but that dedication and the correct attitude enabled a 26-year-old constable to force 27 dangerous criminals back to their cells.

It is members of the police of constable Makutle’s calibre who will enable us to win the fight against crime, and we believe that her conduct will encourage her colleagues to follow her example. I thank you.]

                 CORRUPTION IN MASTERS BUSINESS UNIT

                        (Minister's Response)

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon colleagues, in response to Mr Swart’s statement, I would like to assure the House that when Mr Enver Daniels was appointed, he set in place an exhaustive string of controls within the Masters Business Unit. He first assessed the volumes of work, anticipating that the legislation on black and African estates would impact negatively on the Masters’ Offices. This has in fact not been so.

It was then an audit of work to be done and then also to make sure that controls were set in place to improve the way the work is done there. Since then Mr Daniels has set up a task team to investigate the legislative framework and also the response of the various role-players to the reforms that are necessary. In fact, last week he had a meeting of 150 representatives from the sector who approved of his chosen way forward. They broke themselves down into subcommittees so that they could each report on their special aspects of their work.

We remain confident that the measures that Mr Daniels has set in place will not only modernise the Masters Business Unit itself, but will also contribute to a far more transparent way of working. We will not anticipate the decisions and conclusions of the commission that was set up to hear the events around the alleged Matola case and we will await their conclusions. Mr Chichonga will be facing disciplinary procedures, not because of his allegations, but because of the way that he has brought the department into discredit and because of the way that he has performed in that unit. Thank you.

     VOTING RIGHTS FOR SOUTH AFRICAN WHO ARE TEMPORARILY ABROAD

                        (Minister's Response)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I noted the comments which were made about the coming amendments to the Electoral Bill. I do want to say that you actually owe this to the FF for its constructive opposition, and the constructive role which it is playing in the opposition. [Interjections.] Yes, yes, Mr Douglas Gibson. It is not because of the DA that there is now this kind of agreement. It is because of the constructive intervention that was made by the FF. [Interjections.] [Applause.] And yes, because of the majority party’s commitment to nation- building, to national consensus and to national reconciliation, there is this amendment that is coming. We are committed to listening to what people have to say if they are sensible and if the demands they are making are sensible. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

            PARTICIPATION OF WOMEN IN AFRICAN PARLIAMENTS

                        (Minister's Response)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I think that in noting the fact that Rwanda has made such progress on the gender issue, it is important for us to understand that this is a country that has just recently experienced genocide.

However, the very fact that Rwanda could have democratic elections is a reflection of the role that South Africa has played in bringing about peace and stability in the Great Lakes region. It is unfortunate that while many of our country’s people - businesspeople, politicians, the President, Deputy President, members of other parties - go abroad to project the importance of South Africa, the DA consistently goes abroad to put forward negative aspects of South Africa.

It is also significant that it is only the DA that tries to distort the reality of the President and Deputy President’s visits abroad on the basis that they are spending too much time out of the country. I hope that the DA will rise to the occasion and begin to understand and have a national interest and not a very limited interest, in trying to project themselves as a credible political opposition, which they will never be. [Interjections.]

                       ARRIVAL OF SAS AMATOLA

                        (Minister's Response)

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, I would first of all like to welcome the observations by the hon Norman Middleton on the arrival of the SAS Amatola. I take this opportunity to say to the House that with the arrival of the SAS Amatola, in spite of the negative noises that have been made around the country, South Africa’s Navy has been strengthened and it is going to be strengthening as the programme is delivering this.

With a coastline of the size that we have and criminal activities, whether it is the poaching of our marine resources or the entrance of drugs along our coast and so on, we feel we will now be in a position to deal with any challenge that arises from that side.

I also would like to indicate to the House that I will be issuing an invitation, in the next two days or so, when I will be going to visit the SAS Amatola. Also of course, it will be to place some of the members of the SA Navy who will be manning this new equipment. I would be happy to accommodate some of the members of the House who may be interested, so that they can be shown around and appreciate what capabilities the nation is acquiring. I thank you. [Applause.]

           PUBLIC KEPT IN THE DARK ABOUT CRIME STATISTICS

                        (Minister's Response)

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Hon Douglas Gibson, you are correct: there are so many things that differentiate the two of us. Thank you very much for saying that I am a nice man. Of course I never agreed with the former member of Parliament, the hon Jannie Momberg, when he said that “U is ‘n suurpruim”. [You are a sourpuss.] I never agreed with him on that. You are also a very nice man.

The other day, Madam Speaker, I had a lunch hour appointment with Mr Gibson. Some members from this side of the House asked me if I was making any progress in transforming him to have a different political understanding of our agenda of democratisation.

I told them that, unfortunately, my sense was that the hon member is incorrigible. We have been talking about crime stats in this House - I don’t know how many times - and I will explain what the situation is about them. Of course, I have not given up, I am going to try to use the next decade to engage him on this particular question. The fact is, there are many South Africans - I have a letter right now here on my desk - who are interacting with us on questions that relate to safety and security. They are within the commercial and financial sector, organised agriculture and so on.

All of them are discussing with us and making contributions in regard to why we should deal with this particular matter. As we will understand, there are some people in South Africa who are armchair critics, who do not even understand what they are doing. It is their democratic right to continue to do this and to display their ignorance to the broader South African public. The fact is that they do not want to come on board so that, as a united nation, we can deal with crime in this country.

Let them continue to do that. We are going to rely, in the main, on those people who are making a constructive contribution to this fight against crime. [Applause.]

HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: The second issue is the matter that I’ve also spoken about. I do want to commend the member of Parliament for, once more, raising this matter. There are many policemen and policewomen out there who are ready to lay down their own lives in order to ensure that our people, in the first instance themselves and the general public, are safe from these criminals.

Last week in Durban two of six police members who were responding to a tip- off about a heist that was going to happen were ambushed. The young person who was driving that vehicle ensured that he saved all of them. He kept his cool and displayed such heroism, firstly in ensuring that he got out of that situation and then in helping those who were involved. It was only later that he discovered that he himself had bullet wounds.

On a daily basis I find on my desk suggestions or commendations that relate to this type of heroism. And there are many police officials who want to provide a good service for our people. Matters that relate to corruption and other misdemeanors relate to only a few of these police officials, some of whom we are now charging. So in the end we are able to get rid of such elements within the SA Police Service. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT OF MEMBERSHIP TO THE STATUTES OF THE INTERNATIONAL CENTRE FOR GENETIC ENGINEERING AND BIOTECHNOLOGY

Mrs M A A NJOBE: Madam Speaker and hon members, on 7 March this year the Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and Technology received a briefing from the Department of Science and Technology on the department’s intention to become a member of the International Centre for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology, ICGEB in short.

In line with the requirement of section 231(2) of the Constitution, the department sought the approval of the committee to join the organisation. The committee agreed to this proposal that South Africa should join the ICGEB, and minutes of that meeting testify to this.

However, Parliament referred the proposal for consideration and report by the committee only on 25 September 2003. A meeting scheduled for 21 October to adopt the report had to be postponed due to the cancellation of the House sitting at that time. The committee met again this morning, 11 November 2003, and formally adopted the report. It has been circulated to the members this afternoon.

The International Centre for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology is an international organisation dedicated to advance research and training in molecular biology and biotechnology with special regard to the needs of the developing world. It is one of the foremost international organisations which effectively harness science and technology for sustainable development. It conducts innovative research in life sciences for the benefit of developing countries and through training, fellowships and funding programmes, provides advisory services on policy issues.

Further, its laboratories develop research of importance to bioindustries for its members. It promotes the application of biotechnology in fields such as health, energy, industrial production, nutrition and environmental protection. The centre also offers consultation on programmes in areas such as plant biology, crop improvement, human health, infectious diseases, vaccine production, molecular medicine and so on.

All members are required to participate in the financing of the centre through a scale of assessment approved by the board. It is estimated that South Africa’s assessed contribution would amount to US$37 000 per annum. Compared with the benefits South Africa would receive, this would be a modest sum to part with.

The organisation was launched in 1983 in Madrid, Spain, with an initial membership of 26 countries, and by 2002 the membership had grown to 47 countries. South Africa applied for membership in November 2001. The ICGEB board of governors approved South Africa’s request for membership but indicated that, to become a full member, the Government of the Republic of South Africa would have to declare its acceptance of the ICGEB statutes and indicate its commitment to the provisions contained therein.

South Africa was invited in November 2002 to participate as an observer in the 9th session of the board of governors’ meeting. It has also attended meetings on various genetic engineering and biotechnology issues in its observer status. Such participation has enabled the departmental officials and experts to develop a better understanding of the activities of the centre and thus convinced the Department of Science and Technology more about the benefits for South Africa in joining the organisation.

Other benefits for South Africa would include opportunities for the country to further its national biotechnology strategy through participation in advanced collaborative research programmes and comprehensive training schemes. South Africa would be able to participate in high-level intergovernmental forums where policy issues related to biosafety and technology transfer are addressed. Science councils dealing with innovation programmes in genetic engineering and biotechnology will benefit immensely.

There is also a possibility that South Africa could be appointed to the position of auditor for the ICGEB when it joins the organisation as a full member. This would mean that the South African Auditor-General would derive significant benefits, experiencewise, from securing such a high profile international assignment. Also, the government of Italy, in a partnership through the World Summit on Sustainable Development, WSSD, have committed approximately R10 million for the establishment of an African centre for infectious diseases in South Africa. Such a centre would be able to participate in the ICGEB activities as an affiliated centre. This would benefit not only South Africa but Africa as a whole and thus put into practice the principles of Nepad. But, this funding is conditional on South Africa finalising its membership of the International Centre for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology.

Therefore, in conclusion, the committee recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approves the said membership. I thank you. [Applause.]

Membership to the Statutes of the International Centre for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology approved.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT ON TRADITIONAL LEADERSHIP AND GOVERNANCE FRAMEWORK BILL

Ms E THABETHE: Madam Speaker, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, I move that the report be adopted.

Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Inkatha Freedom Party dissenting).

Report accordingly adopted.

        TRADITIONAL LEADERSHIP AND GOVERNANCE FRAMEWORK BILL
                       (Second Reading debate)

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Speaker, and hon members, the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Bill has been a long time in gestation. The many statutory bodies and organisations that took part in the process of consultation made an invaluable contribution towards bringing us to where we are today. I wish to convey my deep appreciation to all of them.

The Bill before the House addresses a variety of issues, including provision of a national framework as well as norms and standards that will inform and guide more detailed legislation to be developed by provinces dealing with the institution of traditional leadership and its role in the government processes. It will also ensure the establishment and structuring of houses of traditional leaders within all three spheres of Government, providing for transitional arrangements dealing, amongst other things, with the disestablishment of certain bodies.

The Bill also provides for the establishment of a commission on traditional leadership disputes and claims. Whilst the issues which are raised in the Bill may not be new, the manner in which they were raised and dealt with confirms that ours is a society which is in a state of flux and change. The subject matter of this Bill, therefore, is lodged within the calculus of state-society relations. The fact that it has taken us so long to come to this stage, and that our debates were sometimes acrimonious, speaks of the complex dynamics of a society in transition. It is in this context that we are having to pursue the true interrelated objectives of transforming the institution of traditional leadership and to prompt it to place the existential needs of the people at the centre of its concern.

Some who participated in the debate used the opportunity to remind us of the bad old days when our erstwhile rulers sought to bolster their exclusionary policies by asking South Africans to look at themselves as competing ethnic units. They used the opportunity to remind us that some in the institution connived with the apartheid regime to deny our people access to such basic rights as the right to organise, freedom of expression and liberty.

Of course, participants in the debates used the opportunity to make the point that the rights which our people were denied then had a bearing on the degree to which citizens could, or could not, access critical resources. They thus accused elements in the institution of having been complicit in spawning conditions of indigence and underdevelopment, whose legacy we are still battling to overcome.

Our Government has steadfastly refused to allow the rancour over what happened in the past to pose an undue obstacle to a movement into the future. After all, it was our own struggle for democracy which reshaped the boundaries of tribal identity and brought new expressions of solidarity amongst our people. We transformed this country into a crucible of progressive relationships and changing identities. As we all know, our country’s Constitution reckons with the reality of the existence of the institution of traditional leadership. It enjoins us to construct relationships of complimentarity and co-operation between the institution of traditional leadership and democratically instituted organs of state. We have resisted attempts by some who sought to pose the two in a competitive and antagonistic relationship. In this regard, we are guided by the abiding perspectives of the ANC, which in 1919 adopted a Constitution creating a framework which allowed traditional leaders to look at local problems from the point of view of the national agenda of advancing the interests of the African majority.

At the time, the leadership sought to prevent the institution of traditional leadership from being integrated into colonialism and apartheid schemes of the so-called African administration. The leadership also sought to assign traditional leaders a progressive role of designing practical and normative solutions to intertribal feuds and factions on the battlefields. All progressive-minded South Africans will welcome the step which this House is about to take, for they understand that the many developmental challenges that lie ahead can only be met by a functionally capable state which is supported in its endeavours by all social formations, including the institution of traditional leadership. The goal of uniting our people behind the programme of sustainable development is too important to be sacrificed on the altar of narrow party-political interests.

National Government departments have already started a process of looking at functional areas of Government in which co-operative relationships will be forged between the institution of traditional leadership and Government. Local houses of traditional leadership will have to be established so that they can join hands with district municipalities to advance the cause of enhancing levels of service delivery and creating conditions for sustainable development. We should not allow our focus to be diverted from these goals by politicians who may have estimated that their political fortunes turn on ethnic entrepreneurship. [Applause.]

With these few words, allow me once more to thank all those who played the role in bringing this Bill to fruition. I lack the words to express the full measure of our Ministry and department’s appreciation for the role played by Adv Seth Nthai and other members of the White Paper Task Team. I also wish to extend a word of gratitude to the hon Yunus Carrim and other members of the portfolio committee for the dilligent manner in which they conducted the public hearings. I also wish to thank Inkosi Simon Gumede, Inkosi Mwelo Nonkonyana, Mr S Phiri, Mayor Amos Masondo, MEC Gugile Nkwinti and MEC Darkey Africa for devoting themselves so conscientiously and successfully to steering the National Coalition of Traditional Leaders and the executive towards a working consensus. I commend this Bill to the House. [Applause.]

Mr Y I CARRIM: Madam Speaker, I have heard Minister Asmal. It’s Morena in my case, to be more realistic and less provincialistic. Deputy President, comrades and friends, the portfolio committee received a very wide range of submissions on the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Bill during public hearings. On the one hand, sections of traditional leaders said to us that we should first amend the Constitution and provide for traditional authorities to have the same powers and functions that municipalities have in the Constitution. That must first be done and then we should provide for legislation to give practical effect to that.

On the other hand, we had statutory bodies, NGOs and community organisations who argued that the Bill is a retreat from democracy and undermines the rights of women. In between these organisations there were others who welcomed the basic thrust of the Bill, even if they had some reservations.

The portfolio committee was challenged to find consensus among this wide range of stakeholders within the policies of our respective political parties on traditional leadership. The ANC, of course, is a broad national movement which includes all classes and strata of people. Traditional leaders and those who identify with them are also part of our constituency. We sought to address their needs in a way that is reconcilable with the needs of other sections of the ANC’s constituency.

The portfolio committee’s report on this Bill is carried in the ATC of 29 November. I will briefly offer an overview of it. In response to traditional leaders, the portfolio committee argued that the major issues in the White Paper and the Bill should be proceeded with. If at the end of the process of taking the Bill through both Houses of Parliament there is significant consensus among traditional leaders, the SA Local Government Association and other key stakeholders that there is a need for constitutional amendments, the parliamentary committees will consider proposing this to the executive and state that it also considers this.

In response to statutory bodies, NGOs and community organisations, the portfolio committee pointed out that the role of traditional leadership, as the Minister said a moment earlier, is reconcilable with the basic principles and values of our Constitution. After all, the institution of traditional leadership is provided for in the Constitution. The Bill, in fact, provides for the transformation of the institution of traditional leadership, so that it is consistent with the needs of our new democracy. But while customs and traditions are not static, they have a momentum of their own. It is far more difficult to effect transformation through legislation in the areas of custom and tradition than it is in other areas of society, for example in education, the economy or health care. Transformation in the areas of custom and tradition have to be phased in appropriately.

Traditional leadership is a concurrent function of provincial and national governments. Therefore, the Bill could not be unduly prescriptive. It seeks, as the Minister suggested, to provide a national framework and norms and standards, in terms of which provincial legislation will be enacted that will take into account provincial specifics. The Bill deals with the role and functions of traditional leadership in governance generally. The specific role and functions of traditional leadership in different areas, for example in customary justice, land administration and welfare, will be dealt with by the respective ministries, departments and portfolio committees.

The Bill does not specify any particular role for traditional leaders and land administration. However, shortly before the finalisation of the Bill, the Communal Land Rights Bill was introduced to Parliament, containing a new clause that provides for traditional councils to serve as land administration committees. Several stakeholders - as I hope the Minister of Land Affairs and Agriculture is noting - have raised objections with the portfolio committee to this role of traditional councils.

However, we have explained that we did not have any prior knowledge that the traditional councils would serve this particular role in this particular way, as set out in the Communal Land Rights Bill. We appreciate the concerns that stakeholders have raised, but their concerns cannot be addressed in the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Bill. They will have to be dealt with in the Communal Land Rights Bill. Accordingly, we have referred them to the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs and have also raised their concerns with the chairperson of that committee.

All stakeholders need to appreciate that the processing of this Bill represents a phase in the ongoing process of defining the role of traditional leaders in our new system of democratic governance. The Bill is a significant advance on the Bill brought to Parliament in November 2000 and which was not proceeded with. Not all the demands of all the stakeholders could be met in the finalisation of the current Bill. All stakeholders had to compromise in this phase. This does not mean that they cannot pursue their outstanding demands in future.

We think that the amendments to the Bill made by the portfolio committee constitute an intricate set of balances of the demands of the key stakeholders. Essentially, they revolve around simultaneously enhancing the role of traditional leadership institutions and requiring them to be more transformative. This is reflected, for example, in providing for Bills pertaining to customary law or customs to be first referred to the National House of Traditional Leaders for 30 days for its comments before Parliament can process them. But we have also provided for 40%, instead of the original 25%, of members of traditional councils to be democratically elected and for a transitional period for existing tribal and community authorities to transform in order to be substantially reduced.

While the provisions for the transformation of the institution of traditional leadership so that it is consistent with the Constitution, in particular its democratic and gender equality aspects, are adequate for now, they may not be in future. Therefore, the Bill should be reviewed over time to take account of this. In particular, the issue of gender equality as it applies to the succession of traditional leaders needs to be addressed further. This issue could not be dealt with adequately in the current Bill for a variety of reasons, and requires further consultation with traditional leaders and other key stakeholders before further regulation is provided for.

Obviously, the Khoisan communities have enormously legitimate claims to rights in terms of custom and tradition. But they have specific needs and interests that are still being dealt with by the Ministry and the department, and it was not possible to address them in this Bill. Our committee has constantly raised with the department and the Ministry the concerns of the Khoisan communities. While there is progress in this regard, we would like to see more progress. For now, the Khoisan communities have to be treated separately. Over time, there should be more dialogue between the national House of Traditional Leaders and the Khoisan council, and consideration should be given in the longer term to including all sections of traditional leaders in one national structure.

The committee will continue to monitor progress relating to the concerns of the Khoisan communities as they apply to their rights in terms of custom and tradition. The Khoisan council itself has come to terms with this and is appreciative of the inability of ourselves to process their concerns for now.

It is also necessary to mention that the committee is aware that traditional leaders and others see the word chief'' as derogatory and find it unacceptable. The Ministry and department proposed, with reservations, replacing the word chief’’ with principal traditional leader''. After a month's discussion with the portfolio committee we finally opted for the term senior traditional leader’’, with the understanding that the provincial legislation to be enacted will use the applicable traditional terms, such as Inkosi, Kgoshi, Morena, etc.

Finally, it is necessary for me, on behalf of the committee, to express our appreciation to the many stakeholders who brought their concerns before us at public hearings, and subsequently to Mr Zam Titus and his team for processing the Bill through our committee; to Adv Seth Nthai, the special adviser to the Ministry; to the director-general also, who appeared before our committee to take this Bill forward; and to many other people whom I haven’t had the time to mention.

Obviously we appreciate the Minister and the Deputy Minister for their co- operation. We extend our gratitude to Chris Sibanyoni, who helped us with research, as well as Annika Mokvist and Asanda Macanda. Our thanks also to members of the committee for their expeditious processing of the Bill and for the assiduous consideration of all the representations made by civil societies on this Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr W J SEREMANE: Madam Speaker, in the general sphere and despite what has already been said, this Second Reading debate on Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Bill should not blind us to the hard reality of the subject of traditional leaders and the traditional system of governance of the indigenous peoples, not only of South Africa but of the African continent itself.

The institutions of traditional leadership and related systems stretch as far back in history as we can recall. Let me make this quite clear: On the position of the DA regarding traditional leadership and its relevant traditional institutions, we firmly believe that there is a distinction between the traditional system of government and the traditional leaders as individuals per se. The system, whilst it depends on the function and roles of traditional leaders, cannot and should not be condemned solely on the malpractices of a few traditional leaders in the past or in the present.

The DA recognises the worth, value and importance of traditional institutions and leadership. These we firmly support on the basis of our South African Constitution, with reference to Chapter 12. Having given that firm recognition, we are also not unmindful of the realities that our fledgling democracy has to face and deal with.

The conundrum facing all and sundry is this: How to democratise and modernise the institution for socioeconomic development without political imposition or erosion of the positive and essential elements of the traditional system which has sustained communities and helped keep their social fibre intact over the ages? All this - within the framework of the democratic Constitution that allows for our diversity, participation, transparency and good governance to name but a few of the attributes or imperatives of our Constitution.

In crafting any Bill, room has to be made for thorough and wide public participation, clarity and common understanding of the issues at stake, and not forgetting the maximum inclusion of all stakeholders affected by such processes. On quick perusal of the Bill, one can clearly see some crucial faults. For example, this Bill is clearly a hasty piece of work aimed at beating some nebulous deadline, presumably set by the Government.

This seeming haste precludes some of our traditional communities such as the Khoisan people - to use the current politically correct term. The Bill, therefore, misses the fact of our diverse indigenous communities. It is all quite clear that not enough consultation and participation have taken place. Could that mean that the ANC Government sees the question of traditional leadership and governance as a nuisance factor, and this Bill is merely an expedient political tool for Stalinist social engineering and regimentation? If this is not the case, why has the ANC taken 10 years without amicably settling the matter of traditional leadership and traditional institutions, the very heart and soul of the large part of South African population? Backtracking on promises by your Government is counterproductive, Mister.

Within South Africa’s nonracial, nonsexist and democratic Constitution should lie some of the answers to the challenges facing our society. We, in the DA, believe that the Constitution is correct in recognising traditional leaders and the concomitant role of traditional leaders in our modern democracy. We cannot allow whatever legislative processes to pre-empt the sliding away into insignificance of the traditional leadership and traditional institutions.

We do strongly believe that the rights of traditional leaders to administer customary law should continue and be honoured. Traditional leaders and communities have to be consulted thoroughly and involved all the way through. There cannot be a meaningful African Renaissance if we devalue and marginalise the very fundamental fabric of the African soul and African mosaic. The traditional communities must play a critical role in determining our common future as South Africans in Africa and the world at large.

Last but not least, this Bill should really be withdrawn to allow all and sundry to go back to the drawing board to consult thoroughly, debate and work towards an amicable outcome of the final product responsive to the realities of the very nature of the people, whilst not ignoring the modern demands of a diverse, nonracial and nonsexist democracy. Perhaps I should remind you of what Basil Somhlahla cautioned:

Do not do things for us, Mr Minister; let me do them. Think not your thoughts for me; let me think them. You bore me with your thoughts. Who wants to be mothered? Show me the way; do not walk the way for me. My legs are strong and my head is not closed. Oh, please, I know my goal. Do not mother me.

Thank you. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order, hon members.

Inkosi M W HLENGWA: Hon Madam Speaker and hon members of the National Assembly, it is said that even an irreparably broken clock is right twice a day. Therefore, even in this Bill there are good parts such as the provision which contemplates payment for junior traditional leaders such as headwomen and izinduna. However, with the exception of a few provisions, this Bill is nothing short of a disaster for traditional leadership.

This Bill defines the powers of traditional leadership. From a legal viewpoint, traditional leadership will only have the powers contemplated in this Bill, and everything not contemplated in this Bill will not be sanctioned by law and will virtually be illegal. This is much more so in light of the fact that powers exercised since time immemorial by the traditional leadership have now been ascribed by law to a variety of organs of state the primary of which are municipalities.

The powers given to the traditional leadership by the Bill are virtually nonexistent and they almost smack of an insult to our intelligence. If one goes through a list of powers, one realises that what traditional leadership is empowered to do in terms of this Bill consists of activities which any NGO could conduct without any enabling statutory provision. None of the powers have anything to do with the governance of traditional communities. By implication, all the other traditional powers of traditional leadership have been excluded and, therefore, obliterated.

Moreover, this Bill does not give any statutory power to traditional leaders but only to traditional councils. Leaders themselves have no statutory power nor function in terms of the Bill. Traditional councils are given all the pseudopowers, which are faculties that traditional leadership could exercise without any enabling legislation. However, one really wonders how these traditional councils will ever come into existence as they can only be constituted and established in terms of the Bill. In order for them to be constituted, 40% of their members will need to be elected but there is no provision on how such elections can take place regarding the relevant electoral system and procedures, and who carries the responsibility to organise and conduct such an election.

This shortcoming cannot be fixed because no one has the power to adopt regulations to implement the Bill. Therefore traditional councils cannot come into existence because they cannot be properly constituted as no election can be held in a manner which can be recognised by law. This is particularly concerning as the same traditional councils are supposed to carry responsibilities of land administration in terms of the Communal Land Rights Bill, which may lead to traditional leadership also losing additional powers of land administration.

The Bill is also a formula for disaster where it tries to regulate the appointment of the traditional leadership and kings by giving executive responsibility for this function to royal families. A royal family is defined as all those who are relatives to the ruling family. However, the fact is that neither the royal family nor a ruling family are in any way defined in a manner which can be comprehensible to anyone. There is no clarity of how such an amorphous, undetermined and uncertain group of people who exercise this critically essential function will be seized by matters, convene and exercise their decision-making, and externalise their decisions. The entire procedure is foreign to our traditions and will subvert our customs, which have always placed great emphasis on community dynamics in respect of the selection and appointment of the traditional leader. The Bill is likely to give rise to great conflicts at community level and possible bloodshed. This Bill was meant to be the response of our Government to 10 years of negotiations and promises made to traditional leaders. In the end, the pregnant mountain gave birth to a mouse and traditional leaders have ended up with nothing.

This Bill also interferes greatly with provincial autonomy and purports to have an effect which may preclude provinces from giving traditional leaders more powers. It is cast in the constitutionally erroneous language of national legislation which enables provincial legislation on the matter, rather than recognising that in terms of the Constitution provinces have a plenary legislative power in the field. This shows the arrogance of central Government in trying to prevent that more could be given to traditional leaders by means of provincial legislation, which also augurs poorly for the future as it opens the door to greater conflicts between provinces and the national Government.

For these reasons, the IFP opposes this Bill and denounces it as one of the many breaches of the many promises made by the new Government, which have been blatantly dishonoured as if honour and the credibility of our institution were never to be part and parcel of the make-up of our new Republic. This should concern everyone, not only traditional leaders.

For those who attend funerals in dark suits: Get your suits ready as this Government is about to announce the date of the funeral of the institution of traditional leadership. I thank you.

Mr J M NGUBENI: Madam Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, hon members, today marks a landmark achievement and victory for our young democracy. The Constitution recognises the institution of traditional leaders, their status and role according to customary law and a traditional community that observes the system of customary law.

The Bill before the House today ensures that the institution of traditional leadership is transformed to be in harmony with the Constitution and the Bill of Rights so that democratic governance and the values of an open and democratic society are promoted. The Bill also promotes freedom, human dignity and the achievement of equality and nonsexism.

The new system of local government in our country includes and covers every village, town, township, rural or traditional area. This legislation equally provides partnership between municipalities and traditional councils. The partnership is based on the principles of mutual respect and recognition of the status and the role of the respective institutions, and is guided by and based on the principle of co-operative governance. This will eliminate contradictions and unnecessary competition because, for the first time in our history, the role and functions of traditional leaders and councils are explicitly defined. This is a process that complements our democratic values and processes.

This is a major achievement for the ANC. This, as always, is where the ANC provides leadership in a responsible and sensible way for the country, the continent and the world. This provides and accords the institution of traditional leadership a meaningful role in the modern times of democracy.

The issues confronting us today are neither new nor unique to the ANC. The ANC, since its formation, has dealt with these issues satisfactorily. It made sure that South Africans, both black and white, were united as a nation and that this institution was not narrowly used to promote politics of tribalism and ethnicity.

To further illustrate this point, let us pause and look at the amendments of the constitution of the ANC in 1919, as proposed in the fourth annual meeting of the ANC on 3 August 1915 in Kroonstad. These amendments were later adopted in Bloemfontein on 2 January 1918. Interestingly, the amendments specifically dealt with the institution of traditional leaders, the recognition and status of the traditional leaders in the ANC, and the dispute resolution.

As we have indicated, these issues are neither new nor unique to the ANC. The rich history of the ANC bears testimony to its capacity and understanding in dealing with these delicate issues. Chief Albert Luthuli’s statement in 1952, when the apartheid government dismissed him from his position as a chief for refusing to resign from the ANC, also demonstrates the foresight of the ANC leadership. Allow me to quote from that statement of Chief Luthuli:

… I would like to suggest that in the interest of the institution of chieftainship in these modern times of democracy, the government should define more precisely and make more widely known the status, functions and privileges of chiefs.

Today, this Bill does exactly what Chief Luthuli was pleading for, some 51 years ago. The dispute resolution and commission on traditional leaders that will be appointed by the President, will precisely and decisively deal with the disputes and claims. It will also address the issue of traditional leaders who were deposed as well as the problem of nonhereditary traditional leaders who were appointed by the apartheid regime and its puppets in the homelands. This process will once and for all bring legitimacy, respect and dignity to the institution that it deserves.

Through this Bill, the ANC has dealt convincingly with the perception that leads to the portrayal of traditional leaders as opposed to change and democracy and, in some instances, leads to their marginalisation. For instance, in Ghana, the constitution recognises traditional leadership. They have a role in issues of development, but are forbidden to actively participate in politics. In Namibia, the constitution provides that traditional leaders must pay allegiance to and accept the authority of the modern state. The constitutions of Zimbabwe and Botswana provide for houses of traditional leaders respectively, but only at an advisory level.

This demonstrates that this Bill before Parliament today is developmental in nature. It further promotes nation-building and is very innovative in dealing with these complex and sensitive issues. The ANC provides leadership in a responsible and sensitive way, at all times.

The question raised by the DP is very opportunistic. This process has gone on for many years - from the White Paper and the status quo report. Today when we are told about consultation, it’s very amazing. It means they were sleeping somewhere. They were not aware of what was happening. The opportunistic alliance today is prompting people to start talking about this question. The ANC will always provide leadership. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr J DURAND: Madam Deputy Speaker, when the process of negotiations started in South Africa after the unbanning of the liberation movements, one of the issues tabled for discussion was the role and status of traditional leaders and traditional leadership institutions. The agreement reached in this regard was legislated upon in Chapter 11 of the 1993 interim constitution. All other outstanding issues were left to the processes which led to the adoption of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, Act 108 of

1. Section 211 of the Constitution provides that the institution, status and role of traditional leadership, according to customary law, are recognised, subject to the Constitution; and that a traditional authority that observes the system of customary law may function subject to any applicable legislation and customs, including amendments thereto.

This Bill defines the place and role of the institution within the new system of democratic governance; transforms the institution in accordance with constitutional imperatives; and restores the integrity and legitimacy of the institution of traditional leadership in accordance with customary law and practices.

On the one hand, there were traditional leaders who argued that this Bill should not be proceeded with. They held that the Constitution should first be amended to give traditional leaders the same powers and functions of local government and that thereafter legislation had to be passed to give practical effect to this. On the other hand, there were statutory bodies, NGOs and community organisations that had reservations about the Bill and have argued that it is a retreat from democracy and serves to undermine the rights of women, amongst others.

The Bill therefore cannot be unduly prescriptive. It seeks, in fact, to provide a national framework and norms and standards in terms of which provincial legislation will be enacted that will take into account provincial specifics.

Obviously, the Khoisan communities have enormous legitimate claims to rights in terms of custom and tradition. But, they have specific needs and interests that are still being dealt with by the Ministry and the department as it was not possible to address them in this Bill. Our committee has constantly raised with the department the concerns of the Khoisan community. While there is progress in this regard, we would like to see some more progress.

I want to assess the role of traditional leaders in this country. Some played a tremendous role in fighting colonial oppression. We think of the first political prisoner on Robben Island - Autshumato - called ``Harry, die Strandloper’’ by the Dutch. He was banished to Robben Island because of his opposition to Dutch rule and the oppression of the Khoi people. There were many others who were willing to die for the freedom of their people. But, there were also some who connived with the colonial regimes against their own people and fellow traditional leaders.

Ten years ago a traditional leader and former homeland president, Lucas Mangope, formed a coalition with General Constand Viljoen, an ex-apartheid military strategist, to stop the democratic transformation that the majority of people of this country under the leadership of the ANC and the NP wanted. Fortunately, they failed dismally. But, in that process, they brought this country to the brink of civil war between black and white. [Applause.] They visited death, destruction and despair on the people of the North West province.

Today, 10 years later, we see another senior traditional leader and former homeland politician - Minister Buthelezi, and former apartheid military propagandist - the hon Tony Leon, once again forming a coalition. [Applause.] They call it ``a coalition for change’’. What is it that they want to change? Is it the democratic rule? Is it the building of more than a million houses? Is it the black economic empowerment against which the DA voted? Is it the Constitution that guarantees the rights of black and white?

What did Carl Werth, the former regional chairperson of the DA and former High Commissioner to Singapore say about this alliance? It was built on a platform of treachery; it is the right-wing party that is inexorably becoming more authoritarian; it prescribes ethics and morals for the Government but does not apply the same standards to its own activities; it, in fact, meant fighting black with their ``fight back’’ campaign and that its black public representatives were nothing more than … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Are you rising on a point of order, hon member?

Mr R S NTULI: Will the hon member take a question?

Mr J DURAND: I will gladly take a question at the end of my speech. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Proceed, hon member.

Mr J DURAND: It, in fact, meant fighting black with their ``fight back’’ campaign and that their black public representatives were nothing more than window-dressing. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Deputy Speaker, I understand that there is a rule of this House which relates to relevance. What is under discussion at the moment is a draft Bill before us, but the hon member is talking about the last election campaign and the one before that. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon Gibson, please take your seat and let the hon member finish his speech.

Mr J DURAND: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Another thing, by often using the ``k’’ word, it has sacrificed liberal democracy on the altar of Leon’s ambition. The DA, as a liberal democratic party, is totally against the creation of the institution of traditional leaders. I wonder how they are going to vote.

In the run-up to the 1999 election, the DA leader promised his right-wing electorate that he would take their streets back - Ons sal die strate terug vat! Take the streets back from whom? From blacks who now own houses in previously white suburbs? From black children who now walk the streets to previously white schools? [Time expired.] I thank you. [Applause.]

USEKELA-MPHATHISWA WOORHULUMENTE BAMAPHONDO NABEKHAYA: Sekela-Somlomo, baphathiswa noosekela-baphathiswa, malungu abekekileyo ale Ndlu yoWiso- mthetho, kulo nyaka uzayo, kwinyanga kaTshazimpuzi, siza kubhiyozela iminyaka elishumi sikhululekile kweli lizwe. Sikhululeke kwimpatho-mbi nengcinezelo phantsi kwenkqubo yacalucalulo yorhulumente wangaphambili. Simele ukuba sithi halala kwi-ANC ngokuba siyayibona indlela eya eKanana, ilizwe lobusi nobisi.

Kananjalo iinkosi zethu zomthonyama zeli lizwe loMzantsi Afrika zimele ukuba namhlanje zithi halala kulo mbutho wethu i-ANC ongenamona, owaqula walingangatha esilwa notshaba olwabangela ukuba kubekho umsantsa phakathi kwabantu beli lizwe neenkosi zabo zomthonyama; utshaba olwalusaziwa ngokuba yi-apartheid.

Mna andithethi ngabaa bantu bakhethe ukuthengisa isizwe ngenxa yokuba belahlekiswa ngamanyepha; abantu ababekwa ezikhundleni zobukhosi ngurhulumente wocalucalulo kodwa besazi ukuba ngokomnombo abazizo iinkosi zomthonyama. Basekho ke nanamhlanje abantu abanjalo. Ngabo ngoku abatshotsha phambili kulo mbuso walo rhulumente wethu, phofu obabeke endaweni ebanzi. Babesitya phantsi korhulumente wengcinezelo thina silamba, kanti nangoku basafuna ukutya bodwa phantsi kolu lawulo lwentando yesininzi yabantu beli lizwe. Hayi masibayeke oohlohlesakhe, amalulwane anganenyani.

Kukhe kwaphantsa ukuba kubi phakathi kukaRhulumente wethu neenkosi zethu ngenxa yoofunzeweni. Njengoko nisazi, kudala lo mcimbi weenkosi uphethwe malunga nokuba iyini na indima yazo kulo mbuso wethu wentando yabantu - idemokhrasi - apho wonke ummi weli lizwe athabatha inxaxheba kwiinkqubo zolawulo lweli lizwe. Besingathini thina ukuzivalela ngaphandle iinkosi zethu kule ndima?

Sanqanda amanzi engena endlwini ngonyaka ka-2000, sekucaca ukuba kuza kuqhawuka kuhlangana. Phofu iinkosi zomthonyama zona zazithe tu, cwaka, njengoko zaziyazi into yokuba le nkqubo ilandelwa yi-ANC yileyo yayingumbono wabazali nookhokho bazo, iinkosi zethu zamandulo ezaziyinxalenye yokusekwa kwalo mbutho wethu iANC. Uvela phi ndiye ke wena?

Ngeli xesha thina sizama ukusondelelana neenkosi zethu njengoRhulumente, kukho aba zungul’ ichele kuthiwa ziintatheli okanye oonondaba abathe gqolo ukuphemba umlilo weyantlukwano. Akukho nto bekulalwa kutyiwe yona apho aba nondaba babehlangene khona noMongameli Mbeki okanye noMphathiswa uMufamadi ngaphandle kokubuza ngomcimbi wokulawula kweenkosi kwizithili zazo. Ngamanye amathuba uMongameli ebedudulelwa ukuba avume ukuguqula uMgaqo- siseko weli lizwe ukuze alungiselele iinkosi zibe nelungelo lokulawula njengoomasipala.

Mandiphinde ndiyigxininise into ethi imbono yethu bantu asiyiyo eyokuba makubekho inqanaba lolawulo lesine ekuthiwa lelobukhosi. Amanqanaba olawulo mathathu kuphela; lelikazwelonke, lelamaphondo, ze ibe leloomasipala.

Kwisahluko 12 kuMgaqo-siseko wethu kuthethwa ngendima yobukhosi kwinkqubo yolawulo lwesizwe. Qwaba! Hayi ukuba ubukhosi bube lelinye lamanqanaba olawulo. Kambe safumanisa ukuba ngenxa yeengxoxo eziphuhlileyo esathi sanazo kunye neenkosi, sathi saqondana sade savumelana ngeminye imiba, zibuye zingxengwe ngoonondaba kuthiwe lo Rhulumente uyawaxutha amalungelo eenkosi.

Ngoko senza umbulelo ongazenzisiyo kwiinkosi zethu zomthonyama ngentsebenziswano ukuza kuthi ga ngoku. Ewe, kubekho ukungaqondani apha naphaya, kodwa njengabantu abanqwenela inkqubela-phambili, abantu abanothando noxolo, siye savumelana ngengxam yalo Mthetho uYilwayo umalunga nobukhosi kwanolawulo.

Kwakhona, senza isicelo kwiinkosi zethu ukuba zizame ngalo lonke ixesha ukuyicikida le mimoya igqubayo kwanokuba ngaba iyasakha na isizwe okanye iphezu kokuchitha-chitha isizwe sethu ukuze sibuyele emva sibe ziintsalu. Thina singuRhulumente kunye neenkosi zomthonyama - ndiyayiphinda le ndawo - sisebenzela ukumanya uluntu lwaseMzantsi Afrika, ukuze sibuyisele isidima sesizwe sethu, siphelise tu ucalucalulo ngokwebala nangokwesini; kubekho ulawulo lwentando yabantu; sihlalisane ngokuthobelana nangoxolo. Siyathemba ukuba namhlanje le ndaba icacile eluntwini. Halala kwiinkokeli zethu! Halala!

AMALUNGU ABEKEKILEYO: Halala!

Kwinkomfa ye-ANC yangonyaka ka-1997 eMafikeng, neyalo nyaka uphelileyo eStellenbosch, kwamkelwa izindululo zokuba, ewe, ubukhosi bunayo indima enkulu kwinkqubo yolawulo, yaye iinkosi zinoxanduva lokulondoloza amasiko nezithethe zethu kwanokukhuthaza umanyano kwakunye nophuhliso olungagungqiyo kwiziphaluka zobukhosi.

Siyakuqaphela ukuba ngalo lonke ixesha i-ANC ithe gqolo ukukhuthaza abantu ukuba bahlonele ubukhosi. Kuyaqala kulo mbuso ukhokelwa yi-ANC ukuba bunikwe ingqwalasela ubukhosi, kuthethwa-thethwane neenkosi ngenjongo yokubuyisela isidima sobukhosi.

Kulo nyaka nje uMongameli uThabo Mbeki udibene neenkosi kabini ubuncinane; ngomhla wokuqala kwinyanga kaTshazimpuzi xa kwakuvulwa iNdlu yeeNkosi, ziqala unyaka - ngolu hlobo nathi sivula ngalo iPalamente. Wayelapho uMongameli yaye watsho ngodlwabevu lwentetho. Waba nendawo awayigxininisayo esithi:

I am certain that we all agree that we have a common duty to pull our people out of the morass of poverty and disease; that our primary desire is to defeat underdevelopment and ensure that together we move faster towards the achievement of the goal of a better life for all.

Kodwa ke intetho yakhe ayizange ixoxwe ngaloo mini. Ngomhla wama-30 kwinyanga yeKhala, kwakhona iNdlu yeeNkosi yamema uMongameli ukuba aze kumamela ingxoxo malunga nentetho yakhe ngexesha yayivulwa indlu. Yancumisa ingxoxo ngaloo mini kuba eyona nto yayingundoqo kuninzi lweenkosi ezathabatha inxaxheba yayikukuba zithathe inxaxheba kwiinkqubo zophuhliso zikaRhulumente kwiindawo ezihlala kuzo; kubekho iindyebo zoqoqosho ukuze abantu bafumane imisebenzi bakwazi ukugxotha ikati eziko. UMongameli waphendula egxininisa kwelokuba into ebalulekileyo emaphandleni kukulima nokufuya.

NgeCawa le idlulileyo besihambele kwikomkhulu labaThembu baseRhode, eQamata, kunye noSekela-Mongameli, uQabane uZuma. Angatsho naye athi khange sixoxe chuku phaya. Into ethethiweyo phaya nguKumkani uZwelenkosi kunye neNkosi uNgangomhlaba bakwaMatanzima kukuba bona bafuna iiteletele balime qha. Nantso ke esiyifunayo thina singuRhulumente.

Malunga nokuguqulwa koMgaqo-siseko, uMongameli wathi - mamelani ke kakuhle torho kweli cala - :

I must say, in that context, that indeed, if it becomes clear from those processes that out of our discussion on both the White Paper and the draft legislation, it is necessary to make constitutional amendments to make sure that the matters we visualise are actually done. Yes, indeed, we will do the constitutional amendments. It has to come out of what it is that we are trying to achieve. And I’m saying that if out of the processes in which we, all of us, are involved, the necessity becomes clear that we must do those constitutional amendments. Of course, we must do them. But, let us see what comes out of that process.

Ikhona ke kambe imicimbi ekusafuneka iqwalaselwe kanobom bubukhosi, ngakumbi le ndima yoomama ebukhosini. Siyawuncoma lo Mthetho uYilwayo siwuxoxa kule Ndlu namhlanje, kuba uyazama ukukhawulelana noMgaqo-siseko. Indima yoomama, naxa ingekatsoli nje, ifumana ingqwalasela. Kambe singafane nje siqulunqe le mithetho, ukuba imo yobukhosi ayiguquki ukuze ilungelelane noMgaqo-siseko weli lizwe, akukazi kulunga. Kufuneka ubukhosi buyamkele into yokuba kweli lizwe akuvumelekanga ukucalucalula ngokwesini. Side sawisa umthetho ngoyaka ka-2000 obizwa ngokuba yi-Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act. Lo mthetho sisiseko sedemokhrasi kweli lizwe. Sinelungu ke apha ePalamente elingumama, uNkskz uShilubana ohlala kweliya cala, elisamhokamhokana nodaba lokuba libekwe njengenkosi yamaShangana- Tsonga kugunyaziwe wakwaBaloyi, eLimpopo. Uselungelweni lokubekwa njengenkosi ``in her own right’’, kodwa kuba engumama amadoda athile ayabubanga obo bukhosi. Phofu ke siseza kugagana!

Imithetho echaphazela ukubekwa koomama ebukhosini kwakunye nelungelo loomama lokuba babe nemihlaba, njalonjalo, kufuneka iqwalaselwe ngokukhawuleza.

Xa siphethe le nkqubo yophuhliso emaphandleni, iinkosi azinakho ukubashiya ngasemva oomama. Oomama kufuneka babe nenxaxheba enkulu kolu phuhliso kuba ngumama intsika yekhaya; nguye ojongene nempilo yosapho. Ngaphandle koomama abukho ubomi obungcono.

Thina singuRhulumente kwakunye ne-ANC sibuxabisile ubukhosi yaye sizimisele ukusebenzisana nobukhosi ukuze ilizwe lethu libe nempumelelo, limomoze yindyebo, baxhamle bonke abantu kunye nezizukulwana zethu.

Inene iminqweno yeekumkani neenkosi zethu zamandulo iyafezekiswa namhlanje. Ookumkani uShaka, ooMakhado, ooSekhukhune, ooSabatha Dalindyebo kunye noNkosi Albert Luthuli, njalonjalo, baxolile apho bakhoyo. Ndiyabulela. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa speech follows.)

[The DEPUTY MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, Ministers and Deputy Ministers, members of the constitutional House, next year, in April, we are going to celebrate our ten years of freedom in this country. Free from hatred and oppression under apartheid government. We are supposed to congratulate the ANC because we can see the way to Canaan, the land of milk and honey.

That also goes for our traditional leaders in South Africa. Today they are supposed to say congratulations to our ANC organisation, which is not jealous, and which fought strongly against its enemies that caused segregation among the people and traditional leaders of this country. The enemy was known as apartheid. I don’t talk about those people who chose to sell their land because of being deceived by whites or those people who were appointed as leaders by the apartheid government but who knew that historically they were not traditional leaders. We still have people like that. They are the ones who are now at the forefront in this freedom of our government, and they have been in a narrow place. Their stomachs were full under the apartheid government whereas ours were empty. Even now they still want to fill their stomachs under this democracy in this country. Let us leave alone those who take care of themselves, the bats who do not have the truth.

Things nearly became bad between our Government and our traditional leaders because of whites. As you know, the issue of traditional leaders has been handled too long in the case of their role in this people’s democracy, where all citizens take part in the constitutional programme of this country. How can we exclude our traditional leaders from this role?

It was very bad in the year 2000; it was clear that anything could happen. The traditional leaders said nothing, they were quiet, whereas they knew that the programme followed by the ANC was their parents’ and their forefathers’ dream. Our late traditional leaders were together in forming our ANC organisation. Where do you come from so that I can go as well?

Whenever we are trying to be close to our traditional leaders, like the Government, there are people who sniff out the news called journalists or news-takers who always like to cause segregation. There was nothing else but news to them whenever they met President Mbeki or Minister Mufumadi; their question was only based on the issue of the rule of traditional leaders. At times the President was pushed to agree to change the constitution of this country so that he could prepare traditional leaders to have rights of ruling as in the case of municipalities.

I must stress again that our vision is not to have four types of government. We only have three types of government, which are national, provincial and municipal government.

Chapter 12 of our Constitutional talks about the chieftainship role in the programme of governing the nation. Only that! Not that the chieftainship role should be one of ruling government. We found out that because of some debate that we had with our chiefs, we realised and agreed with other things, but the journalists exaggerate it, claiming that the government is taking away chiefs’ rights.

We are thanking our chiefs for their co-operation until now. Yes, we agree that there were some misunderstandings here and there, but like people who wish to proceed, people with peace and love, we agreed because of this new Constitution, which is about chieftainship and governing.

Again we are making a plea to our chiefs that they must try by all means to fight this bad spirit that is around and see whether it is building our nation or whether it is out to destroy our nation so that we move backward and are divided. We as Government and traditional leaders - I am repeating this - we are working to unite the people of South Africa, so that we can bring back our country’s dignity. We must stop racial and gender discrimination, promoting only the democracy of people; we must stay faithful and peaceful. We are sure today that this is clear to people. Congratulations to our leaders! Congratulations!

HON MEMBERS: Congratulations!

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND HOME AFFAIRS: At the ANC Conference that was held in Mafikeng in 1997 and at last year’s one in Stellenbosch, we welcomed the proposal that traditional leadership had a big role in the ruling programme and the traditional leaders had a responsibility to look after our customs and norms and to encourage unity and also the development that is rigid in different directions of chieftainship.

We notice that the ANC is continuing to encourage people to respect traditional leadership. This is the first time in this Government led by the ANC that traditional leadership is being given recognition. It is being negotiated with the chiefs, the purpose being to restore the dignity of traditional leadership.

This year alone, the President, Thabo Mbeki, has met with the chiefs twice. On 1 April, when there was an opening of the House of Traditional Leaders, they began a year like we do here in Parliament. The President was there and he made a wonderful speech. His emphasis was on this:

I am certain that we all agree that we have a common duty to pull our people out of the morass of poverty and disease; that our primary desire is to defeat underdevelopment and ensure that together we move faster towards the achievement of the goal of a better life for all.

But his speech was not debated on that day. On 30 July, the House of Traditional Leaders again invited the President to listen to the debates concerning the speech he made at the opening. The discussions of that day were great; the main focus of most of the traditional leaders who participated there was to take part and be involved in the development programmes of the Government in their places. There should be economic wealth so that people can be employed so as to chase away hunger. The President’s response emphasised the fact that what is important in the rural areas is to plough and to look after livestock.

Last Sunday we visited the Kingdom of the Thembus of Rhode at Qamata with the Deputy President, Comrade Zuma. He will tell you that we never have any fuss there. What King Zwelenkosi and King Ngangomhlaba of Matanzima said is that they need tractors so that they can plough. That is what the Government wants.

In terms of changing the Constitution, the President said - listen carefully to this:

I must say, in that context, that indeed, if it becomes clear from those processes that out of our discussion on both the White Paper and the draft legislation, it is necessary to make constitutional amendments to make sure that the matters we visualise are actually done, yes, indeed, we will do the constitutional amendments. It has to come out of what it is that we are trying to achieve. And I am saying that if out of the processes in which we, all of us, are involved, the necessity becomes clear that we must do those constitutional amendments, of course, we must do them. But, let us see what comes out of that process.

There are matters that need to be noted by traditional leadership, especially the role of women in traditional leadership. We are complementing this legislation that is being discussed in this House today, because it is trying to meet up with the Constitution. As to the role of women, although it is not yet direct, we are looking at it. We can create these laws if the situation of the traditional leadership does not change and goes along with the Constitution of this country; therefore, there is nothing that would be right yet. It is necessary that traditional leadership accept the fact that in this country discrimination against gender is not allowed. We even passed a law in the year 2000 known as the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act. This law is the basis of democracy in this country.

We have a member of Parliament who is a woman, Ms Shilubana on that side, who is still struggling with the issue of being crowned as the Chief of Shangana-Tsonga authorised by Baloyi in Limpopo. She has the right to be crowned as the traditional leader, in her own right, but because she is a woman, certain men claimed that traditional leadership. But we will see about that!

The laws that involve the crowning of women in traditional leadership and the right of women to own land, etc, need to be looked at with immediate effect.

When we handle this development programme in the rural areas, the traditional leaders cannot leave women behind. Women need to play a big role in development because a mother is a pillar of the home, and it is she who takes care of the family. There is no better life without a mother. We as the Government, together with the ANC, value the traditional leadership. We intend to work with them in order to have progress in our country; a flowery treasure which everybody will enjoy, including our generation.

Indeed, the wishes of our late kings and chiefs are accomplished today. King Shaka, Makhado, Sekhukhune, Sabatha, Dalindyebo and Chief Albert Luthuli, etc, are happy where they are. I thank you! [Applause.]]

Ms M C LOBE: Madam Speaker, comrades and friends, as we move towards the end of the first decade of freedom and democracy, we are charged with the responsibility of defining the role and function of traditional leadership in governance, thereby giving more expression to the ideas set out in Chapter 12 of the Constitution.

One of the great challenges in relation to the institution of traditional leadership and the customs governing it is, of course, the gender issue. The customs guiding the institution are often seen as discriminating against women in terms of decision-making, property ownership, inheritance, etc. My point of departure is therefore that customs are not static. Customs constantly evolve with the changes in society and the needs of the people.

These transformative forces should be harnessed in our greater transformation of society. To achieve that, there must be guidance as our society demands that whatever changes occur must be in line with the Bill of Rights in the Constitution. Thus the preamble to this Bill states that -

… the institution of traditional leadership must be transformed to be in harmony with the Constitution and the Bill of Rights so that democratic governance and the values of an open and democratic society may be promoted …

and gender equality within the institution of traditional leadership may be progressively advanced.

Likewise, the preamble requires the institution of traditional leadership -

… to promote freedom, human dignity and the achievement of equality and nonsexism …

While changing a custom is the most challenging task and not the task for legislators alone, this Bill contributes towards our overall transformation of society. If the institution is to make a meaningful contribution to the lives of our people, to the governance of the people and to the development of communities it must allow women to participate fully because …

… Ka Sesotho re re mmangwana o tshwara thipa ka bohaleng. [… in Sesotho we believe that a woman will do whatever it takes to protect her own.]

Thus the portfolio committee amended clause 2(3), which empowers a traditional community to transform and adapt customary law and customs relevant to the Bill so as to comply with the relevant principles contained in the Bill of Rights in the Constitution by, one, preventing unfair discrimination; and, two, seeking to progressively advance gender representation in the succession of traditional leadership positions.

With specific regard to women’s participation in decision-making bodies, the Bill seeks to achieve increased representation of women on traditional councils. While 40% of the members are elected for a period of five years and 60% selected by the traditional leader in a manner consistent with the custom of the community, the overall requirement is that women constitute at least one third of members.

Only in exceptional circumstances can the Premier exempt a traditional council from this provision. The transition period granted for traditional councils to comply with this provision has also been reduced from four years to one year.

Phephetso e kgolo mabapi le tsamaiso ya boetapele ba borena, ke ho etsa bonnete ba hore e tsamaisana le molao wa motheho, haholo-holo karolo ya ditokelo tsa botho. Taba-taba e ka sehloohong ke tlhahlamo boreneng. Ho ya ka ba lefapha la mebuso ya diprovense le ya selehae,basadi ba etsa dipersente tse tsheletseng boreneng. Mme, karolo e kgolo ya basadi bana ke ba nkileng mokobobo wa nakwana bakeng sa bara ba bona jwalo-jwalo.

Hona ke phephetso e kgolo mabapi le ho kengwa tshebetsong ha nngwe borarong ya basadi tsepamisong ya ntlo ya boetapele ba borena.Diterekeng tse ding, ho ke ke ha eba le tshitiso ya letho ka lebaka la bongata ba basadi boreneng. Empa ho tse ding, ho ke ke ha eba le basadi hobane ha ho na basadi boetapeleng ba borena. Ke mona moo mosotho a reng monokotshwai ha o ke o butswe ho latela takatso ya tshwene. (Translation of Sotho paragraphs follows.)

[The biggest challenge in the governing of the traditional council is to make sure that it complies with the Constitution, especially the part that deals with human rights. The most important issue here is the hierarchy of leadership in the traditional council. According to the department of the provincial governments, women only make up six per cent of the traditional councils. Most of these women are those who are just temporarily acting on behalf of their sons who are still too young to hold those positions.

This is the biggest challenge in implementing the requirement that says women should constitute at least one third in the traditional leadership positions. In some districts there won’t be any problems as there are larger numbers of women in the traditional councils. In other districts there will be no women representatives because there are no women in the leadership positions. This shows that things do not happen according to one’s desires.]

For the time being, we have therefore settled on the formulation that a sufficient number of women be elected to make the local House of Traditional Leaders representative of traditional leaders in the area. The Bill seeks to achieve change progressively so as to increasingly allow women to become traditional leaders in their own right. In future these provisions may have to be revisited. The immediate ambition of this Bill is to see women represented on traditional councils within a year of the commencement of this Act, and to see traditional communities working to bring customs and traditions into line with the Constitution.

Molao ona o nka mehato e hlokolosi mabapi le dikamano tsa botona le botshehadi tsamaisong ya boetapele ba borena. Mme, o bontsha hore kae kapa kae, ke nnete hore mmangana o tshwara thipa ka bohaleng. Mme, ho tea mohlala ke tla rata ho le hopotsa hore mane provenseng ya Limpopo, re na le Mofumahadi wa pula ya tsejwang ka hore ke Mofumahadi Modjadji, eo eleng hore ho ya ka rona … (Translation of Sotho paragraph follows.)

[This Act takes important steps in ensuring gender equality in the traditional leadership council. It also demonstrates that wherever she is, a woman can work to the best of her ability. For example, I would like to remind you of the Rain Queen in the Limpopo province, known by the name of Queen Modjadji, about whom we all know that …]

… she is more like an icon.

Mme empa ka ntle ho moo, mane provenseng ya Foreistata, ho na le Mofumahadi eo ho thweng ke Mofumahadi Mmathokwana Mopeli eo eleng hore ho latela mesebetsi ya hae e metle, African National Congress ebile ya fumana ho hlokahala hore a etswe emong wa bo majoro ba rona ba mabatowa a Foreistata. (Translation of Sotho paragraph follows.)

[Again, in the Free State province, we also have a woman called Mrs Mathokwana Mopeli, whom, because of the wonderful work she is doing, the ANC decided to make one of the mayors in the districts of the Free State.] While the provisions for gender equality are adequate for now, they may not be so in the future. Over time we will need to review the Bill, but for now the main challenge is to monitor the implementation of the existing provisions in the Bill on gender equality. This is something that should not be left to the department alone, because as MPs we should also play a role - and not just us but civil society as a whole because it has a major responsibility in this regard. Let us all work together to ensure the transformation of the institution of traditional leadership. I thank you. [Applause.]

Adv Z L MADASA: Madam Deputy Speaker, the ACDP supports the traditional system of Government and the institution. We do so not because we are nearing the elections, but because we share fundamental values with the system. Together, we believe and promote the traditional family values, culture, social coherence and national identity.

With regard to governance, we believe that the institution is the best system of municipal government in rural areas. We disagree with the institution though in some respects, for example where the institution denies women the right to succession of property. When the institution is intact we shall hear little of crime in rural areas. We believe that housebreakings, thefts, murders and rapes that have become so prevalent in rural areas will be reduced dramatically if traditional leaders are restored. We cannot, as often as we do, talk about promotion of indigenous knowledge, culture, languages and tourism and at the same time suppress and ignore this important institution.

The ACDP welcomes this Bill, albeit coming in the eleventh hour and inadequate, in some respects, in terms of compliance with the constitutional imperatives and the discharge of government responsibility. The Bill recognises the institution and provides a framework for its powers and functions. The ACDP calls upon the Minister, once and for all, to free the institution from Government control, which has marred it since colonial and apartheid times. This democratic Government must not follow the ugly path of the past governments of suppressing and manipulating chiefs and kings for party politics. The ACDP calls for the restoration of the dignity of traditional leaders. Lastly, we call upon the traditional leaders themselves to refrain and desist from participating in party politics as this, in our view, is repugnant to the role chiefs and kings should play in uniting their subjects. Thank you.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Geagte Mevrou die Adjunkspeaker, al die sprekers, of die meeste sprekers, kom hierso en hulle sê dat hierdie wetsontwerp erkenning gee aan tradisionele leiers.

Hierdie wetsontwerp gee erkenning aan die bestaan van tradisionele leiers, maar gee nie erkenning aan die magte en bevoegdhede van tradisionele leiers nie. Die wetsontwerp stel die funksies van ‘n raad vir tradisionele leiers en hierdie funksies is bloot adviserend van aard. Tradisionele leiers word basies gelyk gestel aan wyksbuurtes, want hulle kan slegs advies gee. Die probleem van hierdie wetsontwerp is dat tradisionele leiers nie besluitnemingsmagte of bevoegdhede het nie.

As ons gaan kyk na die toestand wat tans in plaaslike Regering heers, dan wil ons vir die agb Minister sê plaaslike Regering het op hierdie stadium vennote nodig en nie adviseurs nie.

Die Vryheidsfront is daarvan oortuig dat tradisionele leiers vir seker ‘n bydrae kan maak tot plaaslike Regering deur te verseker dat dienstelewering en ekonomiese ontwikkeling tot voordeel van gemeenskappe kan plaasvind. Daar is verder ook baie beloftes gemaak met die aanloop van die 1994 verkiesing en spesifieke beloftes wat gemaak is aan die IVP. Dit is tyd en die tyd het aangebreek dat daardie beloftes nou nagekom moet word.

Ek wil vir die agb lid Mnr Durand, wat hom net-nou hier kom uitspreek het oor die aanloop van die 1994 verkiesing, sê daar is ‘n spreekwoord wat sê:

Argumenteer nie met ‘n idioot nie, want hy het die vermoë om jou af te trek na sy vlak toe en dan klop hy jou met ervaring.

Ek kan sien die agb lid het baie ervaring. Die Vryheidsfront sal nie hierdie wetsontwerp steun nie. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Madam Deputy Speaker, all the speakers, or most of the speakers, come here and say that this Bill gives recognition to traditional leaders.

This Bill gives recognition to the existence of traditional leaders, but does not give recognition to the powers of traditional leaders. The Bill prescribes the functions of a council for traditional leaders and these functions are merely of an advisory nature. Traditional leaders are basically made equally to ward areas, because they can only give advice. The problem with this Bill is that traditional leaders have no decision- making powers. If we go and look at the present state of local government, then we want to tell the hon Minister that at this stage local government needs partners and not advisers.]

The Freedom Front is convinced that traditional leaders can certainly make a contribution to Local Government to ensure that service delivery and economic development can take place to the advantage of communities. Furthermore many promises were made in the run-up to the 1994 election and specific promises were made to the IFP. The time has now come for those promises to be fulfilled.

I want to say to the hon member Mr Durand, who had something to say about the run-up to the 1994 election, that there is a proverb which says:

Argumenteer nie met ‘n idioot nie, want hy het die vermoë om jou af te trek na sy vlak toe en dan klop hy jou met ervaring.

I can see that the hon member does have a lot of experience. The Freedom Front will not support this Bill. Thank you.]

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Motlotlegi Motlatsa Sebui, [Hon Deputy Speaker,] it is regrettable when political upstarts such as the hon Durand try to endear themselves to the ANC stable by babbling irrelevantly. My advice to him is to beware of the flea in the blanket he is sharing with the ANC. [Laughter.]

The ANC-led Government has at last, after nine years of nonchalance, been able to present a piece of legislation on traditional leadership. This is a clear sign of how this Government views traditional leadership: as one of those aspects that can be considered towards the end of the term of the second Parliament.

Premiers will have to be careful when recognising traditional communities and not strut like colossuses: experience has shown that they are wont to err, as was the case in the North West, where the Premier recognised a traditional community by dividing the Amahlubi tribe without prior consultation with the iNkosi and his council. Premiers will have to accept such responsibility.

The piece of legislation was delayed in order to phase in municipalities, in the hope that they would render traditional leadership redundant. That not being the case, the Bill is introduced to jack up the failing municipalities. [Interjections.] Out of the 12 functions of the traditional council, six are aimed at municipalities and those that have a bearing on the life and soul of traditional leaders are secondary.

We know that being in Government hauls reality to the fore. Contrary to what the ANC and other liberation movements said before ascending to power, they have now made provisions and procedures so that they can remove a traditional leader from power.

We welcome, however, the establishment of houses of traditional leaders in district and metropolitan municipalities to enable them to share matters of common concern. We would not go for a restriction of their numbers, however. We say all traditional leaders within a municipality should be members of the house.

Dispute resolution mechanisms regarding the issues of customary law and custom are welcomed, and so is the establishment of the commission on traditional leadership disputes and claims. The UCDP will not support this Bill.

Chief M NONKONYANA: Madam Deputy Speaker and hon members, 11 November will go down in our history as the day on which the ANC-led Government took another concrete step towards restoring the pride and dignity of the institution of traditional leadership in South Africa. [Applause.]

We should not forget that the institution of traditional leadership has been under vicious attack from the time the colonialists imposed their regime and its system of governance on the African people. The colonialists inflicted untold damage on many Africans by inculcating in their minds that the only system of governance which is democratic and people-centred is their own, so much so that, unfortunately, even some African intellectuals regarded the institution of traditional leadership as having outlived its usefulness in society and as such should be consigned to a bottomless pit.

President Thabo Mbeki assured our traditional leaders that the institution of traditional leadership in South Africa is here to stay side by side with democratic institutions, … [Applause.] … which will deepen democracy and better the lives of all South Africans. Our Constitution provides for three spheres of government and for a role for the institution of traditional leadership in all these spheres.

The Bill now provides that henceforth there shall be a house of traditional leaders in all three spheres, that is at district, provincial and national levels. Provincial and national houses of traditional leaders provide, of course, for the role of traditional leaders at both provincial and national spheres of government. The ANC-led Government is committed to strengthening the capacity of these houses so as to fulfil their constitutional mandates.

Bills and bylaws pertaining to the institution of traditional leadership, including culture and customs, will be referred to these houses. The new district house of traditional leaders will, of course, replace the regional authorities. These are in essence new structures, and these will be more or less equal in status to district municipal councils. Their roles and functions are clearly set out in this Bill. These structures must be in place within one year of the promulgation of this Act, and in many areas two or more regional authorities will be combined into one. This one year is, of course, intended for them to wind up their activities.

There shall, therefore, be one district house of traditional leaders per one district municipality or metro council. For instance, for the first time in our history, we will now have the O R Tambo District House of Traditional Leaders in the Eastern Cape; … [Applause.] … the King Tshaka district house in KwaZulu-Natal; the Nkangala district house in Mpumalanga; the Sekhukhuni district house in Limpopo; the Kgalagadi district house in North West and Northern Cape and, named after that gallant fighter of our revolution, the Thabo Mofutsanyana district house in the Free State. Who knew that we would have a structure called the Durban Metro house of traditional leaders? There is also that possibility.

Kuyacaca ke, Mhlalingaphambili namalungu ahloniphekileyo, ukuba lo Mthetho uYilwayo singawo namhlanje ubuyisa isidima nesihomo sobukhosi eMzantsi Afrika. [Uwelewele]. Yiyo loo nto ke uya kuqaphela ukuba ngokwalo Mthetho uYilwayo, luza kuba semagxeni alaa komishoni yabameli boluntu uxanduva lokubonelela ngezibonelelo ezizizo zonke iinkosi eziza kube zikhona kula mabhunga olawulo obukhosi. Itheth’ ukuthi ke loo nto - njengoko ndiqonda ukuba abanye abakwazi oko - ukunikwa kwamabhunga ama-50 eesenti ngenyanga, kuthiwe eso sisibonelelo se ``horse allowance’’, izinto ezinjalo ziyaphela ngokukhokelwa ngulo Mbutho weSizwe (iANC). (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[It is clear then, Chairperson and hon members, that this Bill we are debating today is aimed at bringing back pride and dignity of traditional leaders in South Africa. [Interjection.] This Bill provides - as you will notice - for the Human Rights Commission to be responsible for providing proper services to traditional leaders in these structures. That means therefore, that the different houses of traditional leaders would no longer be given paltry allowances of 50 cents called horse allowances. The ANC-led Government is going to provide well for them.]

The ANC-led Government has, indeed, also delivered a better life to traditional leaders as promised in its manifesto of 1999. The Bill, therefore, lays a firm and concrete foundation for the institution of traditional leadership in this country. Nowhere in the world, I dare say, and nowhere in Africa will you find any framework of this nature. We must praise ourselves for having produced another miracle.

Ungaya kwaSotshangana, ungaya kwesikaMzilikazi, udibane namakhosi neekumkani zakhona, ziya kukuxelela okokuba kuseMzantsi Afrika apho ithemba labo likhona. [Uwelewele.] [If you go to Zimbabwe or Mozambique, you will hear chiefs and kings telling you that their hope is in South Africa. [Interjections.]

The ANC-led Government is aware that Rome was not built in one day. AmaXhosa ke athi: ``Inene indlu yegagu iyanetha.’’ Ukuba ngaba indlu uyibeka elulwalweni, asiyondlu leyo. [Xhosas say: The house of the talkative person lets in rain. This means that one who talks too much has very little time to do other things.] As a result, even the very elementary and necessary home duties are neglected and when rain falls, the house will let in water. Just as the house will let in water, so will a talkative person crumble under test because his armoury is not quite effective. So, if you build a house on unsuitable land, it will collapse. We may not, of course, have provided for everything that our traditional leaders wanted. However, I want to assure everyone that the majority, if not the overwhelming majority, of traditional leaders agree that the Bill signals a clear and unequivocal commitment of the ANC-led Government to protecting and promoting the institution of traditional leadership in South Africa. We must make it clear though, that our vision of the institution is that it has a major role in nation-building. It must, therefore, advance our national democratic evolution and our vision of nation-building.

We are opposed to the notion that the institution should be relegated to a level of advancing petty tribal or ethnic interest. Our institution is too important to be degraded to such levels.

Kungoko ke sibongoza into yokuba akwaba abantwana begazi, iikumkani, iinkosi namaphakathi ogaga, angathi ahlangabezane nombutho wesizwe i-ANC ukwenza la mabhunga abe ngamabhunga esizwe, abe liqhayiya lesizwe, ukuze abantu abaya kuthi bakhonze kula mabhunga bazinikezele nofele ekulweleni okokuba abantu beli babe nempilo engcono nentle ngokukhokelwa yi-ANC. Bayethe! (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[That is why we plead that if only people from royal houses, kings, chiefs and their subjects, could come closer to the ANC so as to create these houses to be houses of traditional leadership that are recognised and are the pride of the nation, so that people that would eventually serve in them could commit themselves fully to making life better for the people of this country through the leadership of the ANC. I greet you all!]

HON MEMBERS: Bayethe! [We greet you!]

Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Deputy Speaker, in the short time I have been allocated to participate in this important debate on the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Bill, allow me to summarise my contribution as follows.

It is a conundrum of conundrums that after the purported liberation nothing much has changed with regard to land dispossession and powers of the descendants of our traditional leaders.

The Constitution and laws of the rainbow nation have made a mockery of the most important institution in our country which enabled Africans not to give in to colonialism without resistance, however inferior their weapons were. Today those who are victims of Eurocentricity and Afrocentric disorientation have given rise to homosexuals and abortionists on demand to reduce our population, making our country a dumping ground for overpopulated countries. But what is happening to the descendants of our heroic kings and queens who were the first to defend this land from colonial aggression?

Without proper involvement of traditional leaders in the affairs of our country, rural development will remain a pipe dream. The treatment meted to traditional leaders in terms of their residences, roads leading to their residences, their salaries, their transport, their facilities in the National House of Traditional Leaders, their deprivation of the administration of customary law and their protection of African moral values is tantamount to the abolition of the institution of traditional leaders.

Although this Bill is a slight improvement on the role and powers of the traditional leaders, it will not mean much unless sections 211 and 212 of the Constitution are amended and stated in clear, mandatory language.

It is a shame that a colonial soldier, Harry Smith, who killed King Hintsa, has a town named after him in this country while King Hintsa, who fell in national dignity during a battle for our land, is treated like a nonentity. This is Eurocentricity gone eccentric. The PAC demands that genuine descendants of our kings and queens be given more respect and meaningful negotiation.

I, therefore, am saying: Let us remember the traditional leaders that protected our land; the likes of Mjongantshiyini. Our land!

Ngoko ke, mna ndithi: Thina masikhumbuleni ukwamkela iinkosi ezakhusela ilizwe lethu; iinkosi ezinje ngooMjongantshiyini bath’ uqumbile; inkunz’ abayikhuz’ ukuhlaba ingekahlabi. Izigodlwana zemaz’endala, zingalal’ endlini yazini kunyembelekile. Iinkos’ ezinje’ngophaqa njengelanga, inyathi yaseNtlakantlakeni, unokuzil’ ukudla kwamagwala. Amagwal’ adl’ ububende. Izwe lethu!

[Time expired.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Madam Deputy Speaker, with our first democratic election in 1994 we embarked upon instituting a democracy. With the introduction of our national Constitution in 1996 as supreme law of the land we have done so - protecting and enhancing individual rights with our Bill of Rights.

In our Constitution we further drafted the structure of our Government and its functions. The same Constitution made provision for traditional leadership, having invoked the recognition and role of traditional leaders. The MF strongly notes the importance of upholding and respecting tradition, stemming from a very cultural and traditional society. We hold a high respect for the traditional leaders of South Africa. The MF feels that the traditional leaders have a role to play in a local and provincial government.

The Bill at hand seeks to inaugurate the constitutional provisions concerning traditional leadership. The MF is interested in the National Council of Traditional Leaders and finds that provisions made in this respect will accommodate order in the system. Further provisions made in the light of traditional communities and traditional leaders are supported, as long as they abide by the Constitution.

Further provisions in terms of a house of traditional leaders, dispute management and the commissioning of traceable leadership and dispute plans appear to have been devised. The MF respects tradition and its inculcation in South African society within the boundaries of our Constitution, the supreme law of our country. The MF hereby supports the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr G A J GROBLER: Madam Deputy Speaker, we have listened to various speakers from different political parties regarding their views around issues in the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Bill. Some are in favour of the Bill, whereas others have contrary views. No one, and in particular we in the DA, has denied the fact that traditional leaders have a major role to play in the South African political arena. This is clearly recognised in Chapter 12 of the Constitution.

I want to talk, firstly, about the recognition of the leaders, and secondly, the role of the traditional leaders. It is obvious, if one listens to different viewpoints expressed here today, that not everybody interprets this chapter of the Constitution the same way. We in the DA do not believe that the Constitution, which already recognises the role of the traditional leaders, should be easily tampered with. However, there are a few issues which need to be looked at. These issues came out during deliberations and inputs received from stakeholders during public hearings. Some have not been adequately finalised and are again being put on the back burner, as it has been with this Bill for the last couple of years. But, due to a lack of time, I would like to mention only a few unclear and unresolved matters.

The nonreference to the Khoisan in this Bill has merit only as far as it is acknowledging some of the shortcomings of this Bill. According to my reference, the name Khoisan in itself is misleading, artificial, totally illogical and has no real historical content. It will take anyone who is serious about historical facts as far back as the desk of Prof Schulte in

1. The only purpose of the artificial use of names is pure manipulation. But the promises in the committee and the report to deal with the specific needs and interests of these people are empty, because there are no budget allocations to realise such promises. It has been postponed to sometime in the future again. I think intervention from Government is necessary to fund proper, unbiased research and the funding of the publication of research already done. A Bill should not only cater for the Nguni or the Sotho- speaking traditional leaders and exclude people such as the Khoisan.

Another disturbing viewpoint that was expressed during discussions in the committee was the fact that the ANC members in the committee wanted to deny traditional leaders their democratic right, as citizens of this country, to participate in party-political activities. A phasing-out period is suggested, which in our view is totally ridiculous and outrageous.

The Bill makes provision for the institution of traditional leaders, such as kings and queens, senior traditional leaders, headmen and headwomen. The DA agrees that the Government must not be too prescriptive concerning the names that traditional leaders in various positions are called. They are the traditional names of traditional leaders. Leave it up to the traditional leaders to decide what to call their respective leaders.

Maar ‘n kommerwekkende aspek in die beoogde wetgewing is die finansiële impak op die belastingbetaler in Suid-Afrika. Gedurende komiteesittings het die DA sy kommer uitgespreek oor die geweldige kostes wat die beoogde wetgewing gaan meebring. Die daarstelling van distrikshuise vir tradisionele leiers gaan ‘n geskatte bedrag van meer as R33 miljoen per jaar uit die belastingbetaler se sak jaag.

Byna R9 miljoen word voorsien vir die daarstelling van ‘n kommissie wat geskille onder tradisionele leiers moet besleg, maar die ergste is die meer as R60 miljoen vir die vergoeding van hoofmanne en -vroue. Daar is aan die begin heelwat hoër syfers genoem as die R60 miljoen wat tans aan ons voorgehou word.

In baie gevalle kan hierdie salarisse wat die hoofmanne en vroue gaan kry meer wees as die vergoeding van raadslede. Hierdie ondeurdagte besluit gaan lei tot konflik, en die departement erken dat die syfers bloot geskatte syfers is en nie eers die addisionele kostes soos mediese- en pensioenfondsbydraes inreken nie. Ons kan ‘n situasie bereik waar daar skielik nuwe hoofmanne en -vroue te voorskyn tree. Die DA se siening is in ieder geval dat hoofmanne slegs vergoed behoort te word vir dienste gelewer, soos byvoorbeeld registrasies van geboortes en sterftes. So ‘n stelsel van vergoeding moet dan eenvormig wees, en landswyd op dieselfde basis toegepas word.

Ons het onlangs gesien wat het in Mpumalanga gebeur waar die Premier 30 motors aan hoofmanne uitgedeel het, en dit tot algehele misbruik gelei het

• tot groot kostes vir die belastingbetaler.

Die DA steun beslis nie die voorgenome wetgewing, soos ons agb lid van die Nuwe NP, mnr Durand, so entoesiasties gedoen het nie, maar bes moontlik sien hy die moontlikheid dat hy dalk so ‘n hoofmanpossie kan kry. Maar jy moet nie vergeet nie, daar is nog agb Boy wat dalk ‘n adjunkhoofman kan word en jou leier soek ook ‘n pos, want ek dink julle is almal in die aandskemering van julle politieke lewe. [Gelag.] Ek wil net vir die agb Durand sê: Jou min optrede in die komitee, of glad nie somtyds, was in elk geval so power, dis g’n wonder jy het van die punt afgedwaal en ‘n lot nonsens kwytgeraak nie. Jy was byna nooit in die komitee om te weet wat in hierdie voorgenome wet staan nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Ek wil vir agb Durand nog ‘n ding sê: dit gaan jou nie help om oor te loop na die ANC toe nie. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[But a concerning aspect in the envisaged legislation is the financial impact on the taxpayer in South Africa. During the committee sittings, the DA voiced its concern about the immense costs which the envisaged legislation will bring about. The implementation of district houses for traditional leaders will set the taxpayer back an estimated amount of R33 million per annum.

Almost R9 million is provided for the implementation of a commission which will settle disputes between traditional leaders, but the worst is the more than R60 million remuneration of traditional leaders. Initially considerably higher figures were mentioned than the R60 million which is currently put to us.

In many cases these salaries, which the chiefs will receive, would be higher than the remuneration of councillors. This ill-considered decision will lead to conflict and the department admits that the figures were mere estimates and it does not include additional costs like medical and pension contributions. We can get to the situation where new chiefs suddenly appear. The DA’s position, in any case, is that chiefs should only be paid for services rendered, like for instance registration of births and deaths. There must be uniformity in such a system of remuneration and it must be applied on the same basis countrywide.

We have seen what happened in Mpumalanga where the Premier gave 30 motor cars to chiefs, and it led to total abuse - at great expense to the taxpayer.

The DA definitely does not support the proposed legislation, like our hon member of the New NP, Mr Durand, did so enthusiastically did, but it might be that he sees himself getting a position as a chief. But you should not forget that there is still hon Boy who might become a deputy chief and your leader is also looking for a position, because I think you are all in the twilight of your political life. [Laughter.] I just want to tell the hon Durand: Your little action in the committee, and sometimes none at all, was in any case so pathetic, it is therefore no wonder that you digressed and talked a lot of nonsense. You were almost never in the committee to be able to know what is written in the proposed legislation. [Interjections.] I want to point out one more thing to the hon Durand: It will not help you to defect to the ANC. [Time expired.]]

Mr J DURAND: Madam Deputy Speaker, will the member take a question?

Mr G A J GROBLER: Deputy Speaker, the chance that he will ask a decent question is very slim, so I am not going to answer it. Thanks.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member. Your time has expired. Hon member, take your seat.

Mr B M KOMPHELA: Deputy Speaker, hon members, traditional leaders and everybody here this afternoon, on 8 May 1996 South Africans declared that South Africa was one sovereign, democratic state founded on the values set out in section 1 of the Constitution. Such values include human dignity, the achievement of equality and the advancement of human rights and nonracism. The supreme law of the country is the Constitution, which says that there should be regular elections and a multi-party system of a democratic government, which we achieved in 1994.

On 8 May 1996 the Constitutional Assembly, after a lengthy and elaborate consultation process involving all South Africans, declared that Government, and no one else, must exercise authority over all other things as decided by the people of this country on that day.

Let me put it differently, that the 1996 Constitution defines the nature and character of the South African state. However, the people of South Africa also made a provision in the Constitution to accommodate the question of traditional leadership. That was a clear and conscious recognition of and respect for traditional leadership, contrary to what other people are saying.

The Constitution, however, left a number of issues to national legislation. Such national legislation includes this piece of legislation that is presented to you today, that helps to deal with the nitty gritties of what is said in the national Constitution.

The Bill deals with the role and function of traditional leadership in governance generally. The specific role and function of traditional leadership in different areas, for example customary justice, land administration and welfare, will be dealt with, as the chairperson of this committee said, by the different Ministers and portfolio committees concerned.

However, traditional leaders and others, during our public hearings, said that the word Chief'' was an incorrect word. I think they were saying that the wordChief’’ has had its meaning diminished or has become very derogatory. Therefore the department sat and looked at an appropriate term that could be used. The department then introduced what we call ``senior traditional leader’’.

Still on the question of senior traditional leadership, the portfolio committee supported it. However, the term is just used in the national framework. Each and every province, in terms of this legislation, will have its own terms.

Ha re fihla Foreisetata, re tla bitsa marena a rona marena. Xa sifika ekhaya, siza kubiza iinkosi zethu njengeenkosi. Asizi kuzibiza ngale ndlela which is prescribed in this piece of legislation ichazwe kulo Mthetho uSayilwayo. Siza kuzibiza ngokwendlela ezibizwa ngayo kumaphondo esihlala kuwo, ngendlela eziyifunayo neziyithandayo. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[When we get to the Free State, we will refer to our chiefs as marena. When we get to our homes, we will refer to our traditional leaders as chiefs. We will not refer to them according to the way which is prescribed in this piece of legislation. We will call them the way they are called in our provinces, which is what they want and like.]

I would like to go further and say that the debates on the role of traditional leadership will not die today. With the passage of this piece of legislation, there is one major question that all of us are almost sceptical to face, and that is the matter of …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, there is too much talking. Could you please give the hon member audience.

Mr B M KOMPHELA: There is a major question to which we must give a concrete answer. It is a difficult question that many of us are almost afraid to face, namely whether traditional leaders should be allowed to operate and function as politicians. That is one of the biggest, but also more difficult, questions. But the reality on the ground warrants us to face this challenge and reality, and to dispose of the real question, ie whether they should play a role in political activities.

There will come a time when traditional leaders will not be allowed to play a dual role. The role and the functions which the Bill assigns to them should be saying: This is how we intend for you to unify our people in this country.'' In the political arena, the Bill should be saying: Your dignity as traditional leaders is at stake. Therefore your careful participation in the political arena will enable you to be the unifiers of our people and to keep your dignity intact, as a traditional leadership.’’

I think I must just round off with two responses. Hon Grobler said that the Bill is wrong and therefore there is no way that he can support it. He is saying that politicians or traditional leaders are just wasting time, because in Mpumalanga, for example, 30 cars were given to irresponsible traditional leaders. That is what he said. He also said that these 30 cars were not used properly.

He said that even the amount of money allocated to traditional leadership, in terms of this Bill, is too much; too much because maybe today we are recognising traditional leadership. But, if it was a question of recognising a volkstaat, that amount of money was going to be very little. [Interjections.] The input of traditional leaders and the amount of work that the traditional leaders are doing presently outweighs the amount that Mr Grobler is talking about.

The FF, at the committees and regarding the Bills that have been passed here, would talk about cultural determination - a volkstaat’s self- determination. Today we are talking about a cultural aspect, a cultural matter. It is not about self-determination of a small island, which is different - like another independent state within a democratic country.

They are the people who were crying for that. Today he is saying: ``No, the status of traditional leadership has been diminished.’’ Is it because the issue of traditional leadership being handled today deals with the recognition of traditional leaders, which relates to black people? That is why he is having that kind of an objection. But if the issue was raised by a white counterpart, he would have blessed it and even taken it to the Supreme Court.

Nkosi yam, Nkosi uHlengwa, we-IFP, uphixanisa izinto apha. [My chief, Chief Hlengwa of the IFP, you are confusing things.]

You are talking very much, and wisely, about issues of administration. Yet here we are talking about a broad policy framework which traditional leaders should work on. Whether they have a chair or a phone, or whatever, I don’t think that this Bill is bound to articulate on that. So when you talk about these other things, which are administrative issues, I think you are referring them to the wrong place. The Bill will not be in a position to accommodate those kind of things.

The DA speaks about a lack of consultation around this Bill. Hon members, this Bill has been under consultation for almost five years. They are saying - including the FF - that at the end of the day after a long decade, it is only today that this Bill is passed. But we were careful to consult each and every person. In any event, where Mr Grobler comes from, they do not know what traditional leadership is.

In this country of ours I still expect the IFP and the DA to bring this white traditional leadership that will articulate the African traditional leadership perspective. I want them …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Your time has expired, hon member. [Applause.] Mr B M KOMPHELA: Thank you, Speaker. Hon Seremane, … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Deputy Speaker, allow me to thank all hon members who took part in this discussion. Nkosi Nonkonyana, who took part in all the consultation processes which led to the formulation of this Bill, characterised this event as a watershed development. He knows what he is talking about. I agree with him, because indeed the step which we are taking today restores the institution of traditional leadership to its rightful place.

The institution will, once more, occupy pride of place in the bosom of our people. Once more the institution will become a reliable partner in the struggle against poverty and underdevelopment.

The hon Mr Groenewald warned us against the dangers of arguing with an idiot. I must tell him that I heed his warning; I’m not going to argue with him. [Laughter.]

The hon Mr Joe Seremane pointed to a number of what he calls ``problems’’ in the Bill. He did say, however, by way of a prephrase, that he is doing so after a quick perusal. Perhaps the perusal was too quick to allow him to make an intelligent assessment.

He went further to bemoan the fact - he made an allegation - that traditional communities were not consulted. Of course, if traditional communities were still part of his points of reference, the fact that these communities were consulted would not have escaped his attention.

The hon member Mr Hlengwa regards this Bill … [Interjections.] … Nkosi Hlengwa, yes … as a formula for disaster. But his own input, right together with that of the hon Mr Seremane, indicates that the emerging right-wing coalition is crying out for the attention of our disaster management centre. [Laughter.]

As I said, once more I want to thank all those who participated in this discussion, especially those who made sensible observations that need to be taken forward as we implement this Bill, once it has been enacted by the House. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

AYES - 234: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, S F; Bapela, O; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Cindi, N V; Cronin, J P; Daniels, N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O; Doidge, G Q M; Dudley, C; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Jassat, E E; Jeebodh, T; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lamani, N E; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M G P; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, V D; Madasa, Z L; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makanda, W G; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Manie, M S; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S; Meruti, V; Mkono, D G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Mnumzana, S K; Moatshe, M S; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse- Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nobunga, B J; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, S N; Nzimande, L P M; Odendaal, W A; Oliphant, G G; Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Rasmeni, S M; Ratsoma, M M; Rhoda, R T; Ripinga, S S; Robertsen, M O; Routledge, N C; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E (Cassim); Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Sibande, M P; Sigcau, S N; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sosibo, J E; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Tarr, M A; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, Anna; Van Wyk, Annelizé; Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Van den Heever, R P Z; Zondo, R P; Zuma, J G.

NOES - 54: Bell, B G; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Clelland-Stokes, N J; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dhlamini, B W; Doman, W P; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Ferreira, E T; Gibson, D H M; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J; Hlengwa, W M; Jankielsohn, R; Koornhof, N J van R; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Lucas, E J; Maluleke, D K; Mars, I; McIntosh, G B D; Mdlalose, M M; Mfundisi, I S; Middleton, N S; Millin, T E; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Mpontshane, A M; Nel, A H; Ngema, M V; Ngiba, B C; Ngubane, H; Nkabinde, N C; Ntuli, R S; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Roopnarain, U; Schmidt, H C; Seeco, M A; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Van Deventer, F J; Vezi, T E; Vos, S C; Waters, M; Woods, G G; Zulu, N E.

Question agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a second time.

SOUTH AFRICAN SOCIAL SECURITY AGENCY BILL AND SOCIAL ASSISTANCE BILL

                       (Second Reading debate)

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon members, I want to begin by thanking the House for the opportunity to submit the Social Assistance and South African Social Security Agency Bills for the Second Reading debate. The two pieces of legislation provide for the implementation of the national integrated and cohesive social security system that improves the social protection of the most vulnerable people in our society.

As indicated in Government’s discussion document ``Towards a Ten-Year Review’’, improving social security is one of the key challenges facing our nation in the next decade. We have to ensure more efficient delivery of social grants to rural beneficiaries, reduction of corruption and the incorporation of grants into a system of comprehensive social security in this country.

The Social Assistance Bill consolidates the legal requirements and provisions for social assistance, and creates uniform norms and standards that apply countrywide. The South African Social Security Agency Bill establishes an agency to ensure the efficient and effective management, administration and payment of social security grants. As indicated in the Ten-Year Review, the provision of social grants is the Government’s most effective programme to address the income poverty of our people.

The grants currently administered by the Department of Social Development are targeted to oldest persons, disabled persons, poor families with children, war veterans, and households taking care of children and people in need. The expenditure on these social grants has increased 3,5 times between 1994 and the year 2003 from R10 billion to R34,8 billion. The number of beneficiaries has increased from 2,6 million to 6,8 million.

Research of the Ten-Year Review also shows that grants are exceptionally well targeted. The poorest 20% of our population and of households receives the largest amounts from grants not just as a proportion of income, but also in absolute terms. Two thirds of the income for the poorest people in this country is attributable to state’s transfers. Simulation studies also show that, in the absence of any grants, 55,9% of the elderly would be in poverty and 38,2% would be in ultra poverty. This falls to 22,9% and 2,5% respectively if all recipients get grants.

Although great progress has been made in registering recipients, the full impact of the grants will only be realised when all eligible people are registered. In addition, because of certain gaps between national and provincial legislation, and inadequacies in the current administration and payment of grants, some eligible people do not timeously receive assistance.

Furthermore, there is uneven access to grants, unequal service delivery standards, budget uncertainties and significant persistent fraud in some provinces.

The Constitution enjoins us to ensure that services are provided for in an equitable and dignified manner. Government has, therefore, prioritised the improvement of service delivery in these areas, and the Bills before the House will enhance the ability of the machinery of Government to fast-track pushing back the frontiers of poverty.

The Social Assistance and South African Social Security Bills are the culmination of a long process of moving South Africa from a fragmented and incoherent social security system to a cohesive national security system. I, therefore, extend my sincere appreciation to the members of the Portfolio Committee on Social Development for their various deliberations on and contribution to the Bills.

I also wish to express my gratitude to the various civil society organisations that made submissions and participated in the public hearings. The social development of our people is a collective responsibility that should not be held to ransom by narrow vested interests.

A national system of social security is an imperative. The recent High Court judgment in the Mashavhna case, declaring the assignment of the administration of the Social Assistance Act to provinces invalid, confirms the correctness of our view to nationalise the function.

Achieving a national system of social assistant provision is, therefore, the main objective of the Bill. We are aware of the policy gaps in the system and these are being dealt with in our ongoing work on the development of a comprehensive social security system. It would be irresponsible of us not to finalise these Bills while we are still deliberating on the policy of options for a comprehensive social security system, as our detractors have asked us to do.

It should be noted that the object of the Social Assistance Bill is not to introduce any new provision for extended social assistance grants. As indicated earlier, the objective is to put in place a national legislative framework for existing social assistance grants.

The South African Social Assistance Bill also establishes an independent inspectorate for social assistance, whose function it is to ensure that the integrity of the social grant system is not compromised.

We cannot accept the levels of fraud that occur in the current system. We are aware of the criminal syndicates and their accomplices, both outside and inside government, who are fraudulently accessing grants. We are ensuring that all fraud cases are vigorously investigated and internal control measures are being intensified in the social security system.

Government has only one message for the criminal syndicates and their accomplices: We are coming after you and will bring to a halt to all criminal activities that deny the poor and vulnerable people in society their rights to social security, irrespective of who they are.

The Social Assistance Bill also addresses the issue of political and administrative accountability and oversight. Provisions allowing the Minister of Social Development to delegate the management administration of social assistance grants are stipulated. The Bill also provides for the publishing of regulations on the norms and standards for performance management and adherence to the Batho Pele principles.

The South African Social Security Agency Bill establishes a focused, specialist institution for the management and administration of social assistance grants. The establishment of the Social Security Agency is an acknowledgement that, in terms of our institutional arrangements, we need a unitary but flexible service delivery mechanism.

The agency’s function and role is straightforward, namely, to administer social assistance and to make sure that we pay the right grant amount to the right person, at the right time and in a dignified manner that is consistent with the principle of Batho Pele and the Constitution. By establishing the agency, we are improving the institutional framework and processes for delivering social grants in this country.

Furthermore, in keeping with modern approaches to public management, establishing the agency allows us to clear separate policy-making responsibilities from service delivery. The Minister will be responsible for policy and outcomes, while the chief executive officer of the agency and an accounting officer will be responsible for implementation and outputs. The Minister will continue to account to the legislature in respect of the policy and delivery of social assistance.

More importantly, the South African Social Security Agency Bill clearly specifies and delineates the functions of the agency. The House will recall that the Chikane Commission in 1996 recommended the establishment of a nationally organised social security system. This was followed by a carefully researched, rigorously constructed and widely consulted process, which informed the Bills before you.

Before concluding, I would like to thank the officials from the national and provincial departments of social development for their hard work in ensuring that these Bills adhere to the time frames set by Cabinet. The MECs of social development in the provinces have played a vital role in monitoring and ensuring the progress of the work on both Bills, and they have my sincere gratitude. I also want to thank my colleagues, Mr Trevor Manuel and Mrs Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi and their officials for working so closely with the Department of Social Development and sharing responsibility on the transitional committee.

In conclusion, I have to say that this Second Reading of the Bills is taking place because the members of the portfolio committee worked arduously to refine the Bills. Hon members of the portfolio committee, you have done your constituents and our people proud. I have no doubt that the members of the select committee in the NCOP will show the same commitment. Nangamso, kwanga uThixo angaba nani. Siyajabula. [Thank you, may God be with you. We are happy.] [Applause.]

Mrs G M BORMAN: Deputy Chairperson and hon members, the Minister of Social Development, Zola Skweyiya, has been described as a Minister who cares. This was confirmed in a Sunday Times headline on Sunday: ``Minister steps in to help Aids orphans’’. He gave permission for five orphans to receive antiretroviral treatment despite the fact that the Government is yet to approve a plan to supply the drugs in public hospitals and clinics … [Interjections.]

This could not have been an easy decision to make while the Minister of Health drags her feet over the ARV treatment plan. At least five children are now, thanks to the Minister, being given an opportunity which thousands are being denied daily. The report goes on to say:

Skweyiya said of his swift decision: ``Children need to be assisted as fast as possible to get whatever help is available.’’

The Mail and Guardian calls the Minister, ``point man against poverty’’. The Department has a budget of more than R34 billion, as the Minister has already mentioned, for social grants to help 8 million South Africans every month. The DA congratulates you, Minister, on your caring and on the achievements.

However, when it comes to legislation, the Minister seems to have lost the plot. Today we are debating Bills which affect poor people, elderly people, children, people with disabilities and children needing foster care - all vulnerable people. They are, therefore, crucially important Bills, but these Bills have not been given the time of day. They are being rushed through Parliament with indecent haste.

Apart from some amendments to existing legislation, this department has not dealt with any major legislation in four and half years, and all of a sudden we are now in such a hurry. The question has to be asked, why? Is it because there is an election looming, and the Minister wants to impress the electorate to prove that he has been doing something? [Interjections.]

Because of this pre-election stampede, the public was only given one week to make submissions. [Interjections.] That is how important the public and the Bills were considered to be. During the public hearings, again and again, we were asked not to proceed with these Bills. The Alliance for Children’s Entitlement to Social Security, Cosatu, Nehawu, the Catholic Bishops’ Conference and the SA Council of Churches all implored us to slow down. They all wanted Parliament to engage with the Taylor Report in order first to formulate a comprehensive social security policy, and then to draft legislation.

As it stands now, we are allowing legislation to dictate policy. The Taylor Report, on which this Government has expended thousands of rands, is just ignored, brushed aside in the headlong charge to rush any other old thing through, as long as it’s before elections. [Interjections.]

This legislation continues to propagate the fragmentation system, the problems of which were highlighted by the Pretoria High Court ruling in the Mashavhna case yesterday.

We do have a big problem out there with service delivery, but this is not the way to fix it. There is no guarantee that this proposed agency will improve service delivery to the beneficiaries. We need only look at the shambles in the National Development Agency, which was set up with a mandate to eradicate poverty and its causes. At present, of course, as we know, it is being probed for allegations of fraud and mismanagement. The losers are the beneficiaries.

The Social Assistance Bill fails to deal with the heart of the problem: child-headed households, refugees, street children, extending the age for children to receive the Child Support Grant, means testing and the Basic Income Grant. These are dealt with in the Taylor Report, which the Bill has chosen to ignore.

There is another issue which is of great concern to me. The portfolio committee was still deliberating on the Bill - in fact, we had not even held the public hearings - when the department placed an advertisement in the Sunday Times advertising vacancies for positions in the agency. The department claimed they were merely research positions. In fact, they were nothing of the sort. Here is the advertisement, or a copy of some of the advertised posts. They are for a project manager, deputy directors and an assistant director. All we are doing here today is just rubber stamping what the Minister and the department have already decided. [Interjections.]

On Friday there was a robbery of pensioners’ money at the Meyerton Civic Centre payout point. Seven people, some with AK-47s, charged in and robbed the paypoint. Fortunately the moneys were reimbursed within three hours, but obviously the pensioners were very traumatised. A few weeks ago a runaway truck in KwaZulu-Natal ploughed into people at the side of the road

• many of them pensioners collecting their pensions - killing 18 people.

It is high time we started looking at the Taylor Report. Then we might transform the present and protect the future with such things as improved transfer of payments that will assist and improve the delivery to the most vulnerable people in our society: children, the elderly, and the disabled.

Because these Bills are being shoved through Parliament with such alarming speed, because they disregard the submissions and because they bypass the recommendations of the Taylor Report, the DA unfortunately cannot support them. [Applause.]

Mr E SALOOJEE: Chairperson, I think I should deviate from the speech that I was going to deliver, the reason being that hon Borman is trying to suggest that we did not respect the integrity of the process. We advertised the public hearings extensively. Large numbers and a whole range of organisations came to these hearings. We interacted with them and had a research team there. We carefully captured the proposals that were made.

Now, what I am saying is that the suggestion here is that we did not apply our minds.

Mr M J ELLIS: It is no suggestion …

Mr E SALOOJEE: The suggestion, irrespective of what you would say, is that we upheld the integrity of that process. If your members had informed you properly, you would have realised that we did not subvert that process and we did what we had to do. So, finally, this Bill is the legitimate outcome of what we wanted, irrespective of what you say. [Applause.] Now, there is an impression that we have seen the elections come and now the ANC wants to introduce this. The whole notion of a new social security for our country goes years back, right from the first days and you were reminded that there was a Public Service Commission and the Chikane Report that looked at the new social security system. One of the reasons we said we must try and complete this - it was not only said recently - was because we felt we must now have a national social security system.

Now, it is within that context that I want to continue with my speech. It is well known to us that during the apartheid days social services were provided on a racial basis, which privileged some and discriminated against the majority of people in this country. When the ANC came to power in 1994 we inherited a very disparate system. The disparities included inequitable service provision, the fragmentation of services and the provision of services which failed to meet the needs of the people. We began to address the situation as soon as possible but we encountered many challenges, some of which must be highlighted.

Firstly, we were faced with 14 different systems which had to be integrated into one coherent and efficient system. The then Department of Health and Welfare had to confront the situation head-on and identify as one of its most important priorities the phasing out of the inherited inequalities in the social welfare programmes. To this end the Department of Social Development, as it is now known, released a White Paper for Social Welfare in 1997 in order to set in place a system of developmental social welfare.

One of the other aims of the White Paper was to reduce the fraud and corruption which was present in the social welfare system. The realignment and amalgamation of Government departments also created its own problems. In many cases some provincial departments of social development inherited fully equipped offices and personnel who had a lack of capacity. To this end, and to generally improve the payment of social grants, the Department of Social Welfare allowed provinces to appoint private contractors to pay grants to recipients. These contractors performed many of their obligations satisfactorily, but it is an unfortunate reality that there were very many instances in which some of these contractors did not perform to the standards expected by the department.

There was at least one incident in which a contractor, Cash Paymaster Services in the Eastern Cape, had to have its contract terminated due to extremely poor service delivery. Despite these and other difficulties our Government managed to improve the lives of the poor in South Africa.

As our President correctly stated in one of his recent letters on the ANC website, the ANC-led Government has managed to make significant inroads in the fight against poverty through improving the social wages of the country’s poorest and an increase in social spending, including social grants and access to social services like education, health care, water, sanitation and housing.

The ANC-led Government has managed to put in place a system of social grants which is widely seen as one of the most important poverty relief measures in the country. In real terms this means that our Government has spent R34,8 billion on grants during 2003. Never in the history of this country has something like that been done.

Social grants are paid to close to 6 million citizens and the number of beneficiaries is likely to increase to approximately 9 million in the next three years, taking into account the extension of this Child Support Grant to gradually include children up to the age of 14 years.

The poor have been the greatest beneficiaries of the extension of social grants. The poorest 20% of all households now receive the largest amount from grants. The difference the grants make to the lives of these people is profound. It is estimated that without the social grants significant numbers, that is about 55,9% of the elderly, would be living in poverty and an unacceptably high number of our elderly, that is about 38,2%, would be living in conditions of extreme poverty.

One must also remember that the old age pension is often also used to support entire families. The Government’s ten-year review, which was released recently, states that social grants have the potential to substantially reduce the number of individuals living in poverty from 42% to 24%. Although great progress has been made in registering recipients, the full impact of these grants will only be realised when all eligible recipients are registered.

This seeming inability in the Department of Home Affairs to devise a fully effective method of working with the Department of Social Development so as to provide identification documents to all those eligible to receive grants remains one of the most important factors inhibiting the payment of grants to all our people in need.

Furthermore, the existing weaknesses in the management and administration of social grants often result in the failure on the part of Government to ensure that those entitled to benefits are provided with the best possible services. The ANC-led Government recognises that we would have to substantially overhaul the system as millions of people who are unable to support themselves due to, for example, unemployment, disability and old age, are relying on Government grants as the only form of income. The present system continues to be affected by a number of these problems.

In 2000 the President appointed a commission of inquiry to investigate the social security system and to generate the final proposals with respect to an improved and better structured social security system. The Taylor Commission recommended, amongst others, that the responsibility for the delivery of social security should be removed from the provincial to the national sphere of government and that the eventual administration of social security must be done by a national agency. These recommendations were seen as integral parts of establishing a comprehensive social security system. The Taylor Report also represented a further step in an ongoing process of intensive research into the policy reforms necessary in the area of social reform. The intentions of the Social Assistance Bill and the South African Social Security Agency Bill were neither to introduce a new policy nor to revamp the package of available social benefits.

These Bills are intended to overhaul the delivery system within the stated existing policy. To suggest that the Bills were passed in a policy vacuum, as is being done by some members of the opposition, is thus opportunistic and factually incorrect. I want to remind Mrs Borman that there is a whole history behind it. It has nothing to do with the forthcoming elections. These things were planned and there has been ongoing work on developing the system.

The first step in our attempt to improve social delivery is the new Social Assistance Bill, which aims to give effect to the constitutional right to have access to social security services, including social assistance. The most important consequences of this Bill will be the eventual transfer of the responsibility for social service administration and delivery from provincial to national Government.

This will be done to ensure that the same minimum standards for the delivery of social assistance will apply across the country and will hopefully ensure better service delivery to all the people, especially in the remote rural areas. The Social Assistance Bill aims further to establish an inspectorate for social security, which will investigate fraud, corruption and other forms of financial and service mismanagement as part of its function so as to ensure the maintenance and integrity of the social security systems. This inspectorate will be very important in improving service delivery in this area, as it will help combat the mismanagement, fraud and corruption which has been found in certain sectors of social service delivery. The other important aspect is that our Government is proud of the improvement in service delivery in the area of social grants and payments, and has therefore decided to establish a faultless specialised delivery mechanism to achieve this goal. The National Social Security Agency Bill aims to establish such a mechanism to improve service delivery.

The main objective of the agency would be to ensure the efficient and effective management, administration and payment of social assistance grants in the country. This will ensure that there is equal access to social assistance for all citizens through the implementation of similar standards and norms across the country. The removal of the payment function to the national agency will allow the Department of Social Development to place more emphasis on the developmental aspect of social security; that is to get involved in projects which go beyond the mere handing out of grants.

The Department of Social Development has stated that an effective social security system would require it to move away from the traditional approach to designing and providing services that will lead to self-sufficiency and sustainability. Such services would include programmes such as poverty- relief programmes aimed at providing wage-earning jobs to vulnerable groups such as women, children, the aged and the disabled.

The agency also aims to act as an agent for the payment of other forms of social security. The Bill also makes provision for negotiations and agreements to be entered into in this regard. This is in line with the Government’s mission to put in place a comprehensive system where all forms of social security, both social insurance and assistance payment, are managed by one body.

Allow me to dwell briefly on the potential practical implications these Bills may have. Foremost, proper implementation will give effect to the Batho Pele principles and allow recipients to be treated with the dignity and respect to which they are entitled.

Secondly, these Bills will place the delivery of social services firmly within the ambit of our President’s statement on 8 January, in that they allow for conditions which will ensure the proper functioning of our … [Time expired.][Applause.]

Mrs I MARS: Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister and colleagues, the two Bills before us today are a result of a process of reassigning important competences from the provinces to the national sphere. And it is on this basis that it is claimed they were wrongly assigned to Proclamation R7 of 1996.

One would have expected that the MinMec consultative process would have dealt with this matter in great detail and that agreement would be reached at that level. At the portfolio committee we did question the department and we were assured that this process had been concluded.

However, when we enquired about the Mashavhna case and looked at the court document, we discovered that several provinces were actually respondents in the case originally. Now we understand clearly that the judgment had been given and that the reassignment was considered to be correct. We have to accept this at this time and, therefore, we cannot find great criticism in what the hon Minister said - and, certainly, not in what our chairperson said - in terms of our desire and willingness to improve the services of the social grant system to all our citizens who form a vulnerable part of our population. They deserve our consideration and I don’t think anyone would disagree with that. I know a lot has been done and we are the first to acknowledge all that is positive that has happened.

Now at the same time we are also aware, of course, that the proposed reversal of the 1996 proclamation has been a process that has been going on for a considerable time. And what I am actually going to highlight is only the concerns we have regarding these changes. I must tell you honestly that we acknowledge that there were many teething problems and many serious abuses due to the multiplicity of systems. There is justifiable concern about corruption, but we are not convinced yet that the Social Security Agency Bill constitutes a remedy to the problem unless we address several issues. We are told and assured that the process of implementation is going to be a very gradual one.

However, just looking at one item, namely the secondment or transfer from the Public Service to the agency, we find that it raises a host of questions. And we have to remember that these officials currently employed by the provincial governments have obviously expressed some concern. Now the question that occurred to me of course was: Why the new agency? If it is to be more efficient, is it to be so much better that we are actually seconding those employees or those civil servants, who are at the moment - we are supposed to think - administering matters efficiently and competently? Because otherwise we would not second and transfer them. So there are these many questions that are to be raised on the subject of the Public Service employees and conditions of service, the differential conditions of human resource policies and others. From the Public Service employees’ point of view we would need to be informed of all the details such as, will they be able to refuse transfer or secondment to the agency and are conditions of employment the same? Many of these things were addressed, but from the Public Service point of view they have not been clearly answered. Are the benefits transferred? So these questions will arise and they will have to be considered in due course. We are, however, even more concerned about the transitional arrangements and their consequences. What guarantees are there to ensure that the social service delivery is not adversely affected during the transitional period?

Then there’s the question of the impact on existing provincial services and programmes, and the concerns about the transfers of assets and liabilities from the provincial department to the agency, which may have consequences for social services not directly linked to the administration of social grants. The human resource function is to be located within the Ministry of Public Service and this, of course, brings out concerns for many of the Public Service employees who may be affected if this process is going to lead to a loss of posts. We were assured, during the portfolio committee discussion with the department, that this Bill will merely create the legislative framework for the agency, but we are not quite convinced of this.

On the Social Assistance Bill, the IFP agrees with many of the presentations made by organs of civil society and it is very interesting to see the diversity of this agency. There is the SA Council of Churches, the Catholic Bishop’s Conference, the Black Sash, Cosatu, Nehawu and several others who expressed great concern over these matters. Cosatu and Nehawu actually specifically noted that there was not enough time for more extended hearings.

We also agreed with the presentation that stated clearly that the commission’s report must be at the centre of any deliberation to achieve the comprehensive social security policy. We believe that the policy should have emanated from this report and all aspects of the implementation process should be deferred, to be discussed and debated widely before engaging in any legislative process. We’re told that there was interaction between the department and organs of civil society, but that many issues raised were only partially accommodated or not at all.

The success of the Social Assistance Bill would depend to a large extent on civil society … [Time expired.]

The IFP does not support the Bill. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, may I just call you to attention, please. I think many of you are having prolonged private conversations. If you could now attend to the main business of the House.

Mnr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Agb Adjunkvoorsitter, in die Beeld van Maandag 10 November het die volgende berig verskyn:

Derduisende Suid-Afrikaners wat van maatskaplike toelaes afhanklik is, kan nou hoop die administrasie sal meer toegeeflik wees.

Dit kom nadat regter Jerry Shongwe in die Pretoriase hooggeregshof uitspraak gegee het in die aansoek van Muzamani Samuel Mashavhna, ‘n gestremde van Limpopo, teen die president, minister van maatskaplike ontwikkeling en drie provinsiale LURs.

Albei Mashavhna se hande is in ‘n motorongeluk in 1992 vergruis. Hy het in 2000 aansoek gedoen om ‘n ongeskiktheidstoelae, maar moes soos meer as 164 000 ander in Limpopo jare wag.

Mashavhna het in sy aansoek aangevoer die verskille in die provinsies se hantering van maatskaplike toelaes is ongrondwetlik omdat almal nie oor dieselfde kam geskeer word nie.

Luidens hofstukke het die president in 1996 die administrasie van die maatskaplike toelaes aan die provinsies gegee ingevolge die tussentydse Grondwet. Shongwe het hom gelyk gegee en gemaak of die proklamasie van 1996 ongeldig is, maar dat dié bevel op 1 April volgende jaar opgeskort word om die regering kans te gee om dit reg te stel.

Die hof het vroeër gehoor twee wetsontwerpe is reeds vroeër deur die portefeuljekomitee vir maatskaplike ontwikkeling goedgekeur om die probleem op te los.

Dr Zola Skweyiya, as Minister van Maatskaplike Ontwikkeling, het nie die aansoek teengestaan nie, hoewel die LUR vir maatskaplike en bevolkingsontwikkeling in KwaZulu-Natal die aansoek verbete betwis en probeer het om dinge te hou soos dit is. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Hon Chairperson, the following article was run in the Beeld of Monday 10 November:

Derduisende Suid-Afrikaners wat van maatskaplike toelaes afhanklik is, kan nou hoop die administrasie sal meer toegeeflik wees.

Dit kom nadat regter Jerry Shongwe in die Pretoriase hooggeregshof uitspraak gegee het in die aansoek van Muzamami Samual Mashavhna, `n gestremde van Limpopo, teen die president, die minister van maatskaplike ontwikkeling en die provinsiale LURs.

Both of Mashavhna’s hands were crushed in a motor accident in 1992. He applied for a disability grant in 2000 but, along with 164 000 others in Limpopo, had to wait many years.

In his application Mashavnha stated that differences in the provinces’ handling of social grants were unconstitutional as everyone was not treated the same.

According to court documents the President gave the administration of the social grants to the provinces in accordance with the interim Constitution.

Shongwe admitted that he was correct and pretended that the proclamation of 1996 was invalid, but that this order would be suspended on 1 April the following year in order to give the Government the opportunity to correct it.

The court earlier heard that two Bills had already been approved by the Portfolio Committee for Social Development to solve the problem.

Dr Zola Skweyiya, Minister of Social Development, did not oppose the application, although the MEC of Social and Population Development in KwaZulu-Natal fiercely contested the application and tried to keep things the way they were.]

This is one example where an individual in a specific province had to go to court in order to access a grant which would have been allocated to him had he lived in another province. I’m sure every member of this House could quote off-hand the name of at least one person in his or her area of responsibility that has had the same kind of problem. The sad story in this case and in other cases like it is not due to a lack of willpower or a lack of commitment by the Minister to ensure that every person in this country who is entitled to social assistance receives such support from the Government.

The two Bills that we have in front of us today represent a further step to streamline the process, to ensure that every person in South Africa has access to social security, including the right to social assistance, should they be unable to support themselves and their dependants.

The weakness in the present administration and payment of social grants has provided those who are always on the prowl for cheap political point- scoring with an opportunity to criticise and accuse rather than to find solutions that would be sustainable, in order to improve the quality of life of the poorest of the poor, the elderly and the disabled. They opt to wave newspaper ads here in Parliament, rather than really seeking for solutions to the problems. [Interjections.] For far too long the suffering of those who were affected by a lack of uniformity in norms and standards, which could be applied countrywide in the absence of constitutional legal requirements and reasons for social assistance, has provided an excuse to use the plight of such people as a political football. Shame on those people. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! Carry on.

Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: The New NP believes that the two Bills before Parliament today will enable the Government and the department to render such services as required to take care of those whose livelihoods are dependent on the monthly care given by the state. We are satisfied that both these Bills have as their aim the improvement of services to the needy. One of the objectives is to address the critical issues, such as to provide for the financing of social assistance and to provide for proper administration and payment of social grants. It determines the qualification required for social assistance, as well as ensuring that minimum norms and standards are set for the delivery of social assistance.

We believe that this legislation once again is an attempt to make South Africa a better place to live in by being honest when we find that the processes that we are dealing with at present are not working and bold enough to say that we need to take the necessary steps to rectify and improve such processes.

The New NP would support this. But then, in the final analysis, it is interesting to see that the unholy alliance that we have on the left here, on two different debates today … [Time expired.]

Mr M T MASUTHA: Chairperson and the House at large, before I proceed with my speech, allow me to also add my voice in responding to some of the disparaging - or should I say desperate - remarks from the hon Borman, which is characteristic of the DA during these times of elections. Those remarks are desperate, since they know that they are going to lose the elections and are therefore making remarks which are characteristic of the DA. [Interjections.]

Contrary to what the hon Borman is saying, this is not going to fail the poor, the elderly and children: it is only the DA that stands to lose from the passing of this legislation. This legislation is going to achieve nothing other than to improve the quality of life of our people.

Mr G B D McINTOSH: What is going to change?

M T MASUTHA: Mutshami wa Xitulu na swirho swa Nhlengeletano leyi yo hlonipheka, Nawumbisi lowu nga nga emahlweni ka hina namunthla wu na nkoka swinene ngopfu tani hileswi hi nga langutela ku hela ka khume ro sungula ra malembe ya Mfumo wa demokhirasi.

Nkarhi wu fikile wo hi langutisa endzhaku laha hi humaka kona hi kambisisa kahle ku ri xana vutomi bya rixaka byi antswisiwile mpfhuka ka 1994 eku heleni ka mfumo wa xihlawuhlawu. Loko ANC yi teka mfumo hi 1994 mi ta tsundzuka leswaku vulawuri na milawu yo avanyisa midende a swi hambanile ku ya hi mafumele ya xihlawuhlawu.

Loko u ri wantima u tshama ematiko-xikaya ko fana na Gazankulu, Lebowa sw. na sw., a wu nga phameriwi ku ringana na loyi a ri wo basa a tshama laha a ku vitaniwa Afrika Dzonga ya ntiyiso. Leswi a swi endleriwe leswaku rixaka ra vantima ri ya emahlweni na ku hlupheka naswona ri nga pfuki ri hluvukile ku fana na tinxaka tin’wana.

Ku suka loko ANC yi teka mfumo ku vile na ku antswisiwa lokukulu evuton’wini bya rixaka, ngopfu-ngopfu eka vantima. Mhaka leyi yi tikomba kahle loko hi langutile tinhlayo leti humaka eka Statistics South Africa leti kombaka leswaku vanhu lava a va kuma midende hi 1994 loko ANC yi teka mfumo a va ri 2,6 wa timiliyoni kambe sweswi i vanhu va timiliyoni ta 6,8. Tinhlayo leti ti tlhela ti komba leswaku loko hi pimanyisa ku avanyisa ka timali ta rixaka mali ya mindede hi 1994 yi ringana tibiliyoni ta 10. Nanwaka Mfumo wu vekele ethlelo mali yo ringana tibiliyoni ta 34,8 leyi nga ta tirhisiwa ku hakela midende.

Xikongomelo xa nkoka eka milawumbisi leyi nga emahlweni ka hina namuntlha i ku antswisa vulawuri bya swa midende ku endlela leswaku Mfumo wu kota ku endla leswaku rixaka hinkwaro ri kota ku fikelela timfanelo hi ku ringana hambi munhu a tshama emadorobeni kumbe ematiko-xikaya. (Translation of Tsonga paragraphs follows.)

[Mr M T MASUTHA: Chairperson and members of this honourable House, the Bill before us today is important as we are approaching 10 years of our democratic Government.

It is time for us to reflect on where we come from to see if the lives of the people have indeed been changed since 1994, when apartheid was eradicated. You may recall that when the ANC came into power in 1994 pension administration was divided in line with apartheid policies.

Black people were staying in homelands like Gazankulu, Lebowa, etc, and did not receive the same pension as their white counterparts residing in the so- called ``real’’ South Africa. This was specifically done so that black people would never develop to the extent that they were the same as people of other race groups.

Since the ANC-led Government has taken over there have been some significant changes in the lives of our people, more especially the quality of life of black people has improved. This fact is supported by figures that one gets from Statistics South Africa, which indicate that the number of people who received pension grants in 1994 when the ANC took over was 2,6 million, but now the number has increased to 6,8 million. These figures also show that in 1994 money allocated for social grants was R10 billion, which has increased to R34,8 billion in this year.

The main aim of these Bills presented to us today is to improve on the administration of social grants so that the needs of all our people can be met, whether they are from urban or rural areas.]

Turning to some of the specific issues relating to the Bills before us, allow me to start by saying that these Bills seek to consolidate and centralise the administration of social assistance, so as to promote equitable access in line with both the equality clause and the right to social security provisions in our Bill of Rights.

May I at this juncture also bring to the attention of the House the High Court judgment which was already alluded to in the Mashavhna case recently, delivered on 28 October 2003. In this case the constitutionality of the assignment of the social assistance function to the provincial sphere of government was successfully challenged.

Concern was expressed by civil society regarding the introduction of this legislation when this matter was still before the courts. The view of the committee was that the location of the function was a policy matter in respect of which Government, in its wisdom, deemed appropriate to deal with in the Bill before us, namely, by providing for its relocation to the national sphere of government.

At the same time provision is made for a single nationally based social security agency to become, once it is fully fledged, the sole agency for the payment of grants throughout the country. This will obviate the prevailing situation in which the payment of grants is performed by various subcontractors engaged by the different provinces. This has resulted in uneven standards of service delivery, as the Minister has already alluded to, and therefore inconsistencies in the administration of payments between provinces.

Let me also clarify that, contrary to what Ms Borman alluded to earlier, the agency has not been created and therefore no posts have been advertised by the agency. The posts that were advertised were within the department. So, stop misleading the public about facts that do not exist. [Interjections.]

Transitional arrangements were carefully crafted in line with the principles of co-operative governance contained in our Constitution, to ensure a smooth transition from the current arrangements wherein provinces are responsible for the provision of grants to the new arrangements under the proposed legislation in terms of which the national sphere will be responsible.

I also wish to clarify that the executive functions of the Minister regarding the overall provision of social grants is clearly spelt out and is distinct from the administrative functions to be performed by the agency, which are also clearly spelt out in the proposed legislation.

Several issues were raised relating to the character of the new agency during the committee’s deliberations on the South African Social Security Agency Bill, which I now wish to address. Firstly, the question of whether the agency should have original statutory powers or should rather perform such functions in a delegated capacity was raised. Having carefully considered the matter, the committee was of the view that the delineation of the executive and the administrative functions I have already alluded to was necessary to enhance accountability under the overall institutional arrangements.

Secondly, the committee was of the view that the administrative functions which, under the current legislation, are performed by the director-general or the head of the department of social development at provincial level, as the case may be, should be conferred directly on the agency and not indirectly through delegation from the director-general to the agency.

The latter approach, the committee felt, would create an undesirable dualism in accountability between the director-general of the department on the one hand and the CEO of the agency on the other. This could result in the director-general being finally accountable as accounting officer, whilst he or she does not at the same time exercise control over the affairs of the agency.

The issue of a board to be established as a governing body for the agency, through which the agency would account to the Minister, was also mooted. The prevailing view, however, was that the CEO should be directly accountable to and under the control of the Minister, so as to shorten the chain of accountability.

Another issue which was the subject of extensive deliberation was the policy question whether the agency should be located within the Public Service Regulatory Framework or whether it should fall within the broader public sector institutional arrangements. Various models, such as Sars, were used to determine the appropriate location of the agency in this regard and in the final analysis the agency was placed outside of the Public Service but within the public sector.

As a result, it was the decision of the committee to insert subclause 3 under clause 7 of the Bill to provide for the Minister, after consultation with the CEO of the agency, to determine a code of conduct for the agency to ensure, amongst other things, effective and efficient service delivery based on professional ethics; prevention of a conflict of interests; confidentiality; honest, impartial, fair and equitable service; and the promotion and protection of the human dignity of the applicants and the beneficiaries of social security.

In addition and in consultation with the Minister for the Public Service, the Minister would determine an appropriate human resource policy for the agency. This would obviously be benchmarked within the framework of the broader Public Service Regulatory Framework. This is aimed at ensuring that a new … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Chairperson, South Africa faces insurmountable challenges in the fight to alleviate poverty. The Constitution provides everyone, adults and children, with the right to have access to social security and social assistance. However, the number of people becoming dependent on the state is growing at an alarming rate.

Section 28(1)(b) of the Constitution implies that parents have the primary responsibility to provide economic and social rights for their children, and the state must only intervene when parents are unable to provide for them.

The SA Social Security Agency Bill provides an institution designed to improve and enhance delivery of service to 6 million beneficiaries. The lack of fiscal management and political leadership by provinces does not warrant the shift by centralising this competency, but it does reveal the present Government’s ideology by slowly eroding the powers of provinces.

Insecurity and uncertainty amongst current personnel could result in losing experienced and qualified employees. The challenge remains whether this agency would have the human capacity and skills to administer and manage the transitional phase without prejudicing existing and new beneficiaries.

The Social Assistance Bill attempts to produce a comprehensive social package, with particular attention to children, disability, health and retirement. Given the fact that the department loses approximately R2 billion a year, the swift establishment of the inspectorate must be seen as a vital component to prevent fraud and corruption, financial mismanagement and criminal activity within the social grant system.

The amount of R34 billion disbursed at a rate of R2,9 billion a month, with a yearly increase of 8% in the medium term, is unsustainable. Government must ensure that it creates an enabling environment that will stimulate the economy for sustainable job creation, and by so doing decrease dependency and incorporate the workforce back into the economic stream.

Furthermore, Government must guard against allowing social services to become a tool to build itself a power base at the expense of the poor. [Time expired.]

Ms N C NKABINDE: Deputy Chair, hon Minister and hon members, the South African Social Security Agency Bill and the Social Assistance Bill seek to usher in a new management dispensation for the provision of social assistance by Government.

The establishment of the Social Security Agency and the Inspectorate for Social Assistance will hopefully address the urgent problems of mismanagement and abuse within the current social security institution. Within these dozens of pages of legislation and their implementation, there is a harsh reality for the intended beneficiaries. It is ridiculous that elderly people die in queues, beneficiaries wait months for payment and that they are deprived of their grants unilaterally.

On top of these unacceptable and, sadly so, prevalent incidents, there is the continuous spectre of corruption and fraud that seeks to steal taxpayers’ money intended for the poor and needy. It is a crime of such despicable proportions that the maximum jail sentence of 15 years, as prescribed in the Bill, seems almost inadequate. It is our sincere hope that the inspectorate envisaged in the Social Assistance Bill will be equipped and staffed to such a degree that corruption and greed can be eradicated from social security once and for all.

In conclusion, the existence of legislation in and of itself means nothing to the millions of poor and needy people if political will and unwavering dedication to the task is lacking in Government and the Public Service. The real test for this legislation is whether it can translate quickly and efficiently into a proper service delivery vehicle that alleviates the suffering that we see across the country.

The UDM supports this Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

Prof L M MBADI: Sihlalo, Mphathiswa wezoPhuhliso loLuntu noogxa bakho, iNdlu ngokubanzi, lo ngumhla omkhulu kubantu abasivotelayo, silapha nje; umhla oya kuhlala uyimbali, mhla kwathiwa thaca kwinkundla yowiso-mithetho iMithetho eYilwayo engamawele ngaxeshanye. Ubuwele bobu, omnye akanakwenza ngaphandle komnye. Xa usithi Social Security Agency Bill'' unyanzelekile ukuba uthi Social Assistance Bill’’. Ngamawele, ayakhaphana. [Uwele- wele.]

Iingxaki ezathi zagubungela uluntu malunga nokunatyiselwa kwezibonelelo eluntwini, zenza uRhulumente okhokelwa nguKhongolose wangalali buhlayo, ngakumbi uKrec’ izulu, uLeta, ezama-zamana neendlela zokukhupha abantu kwintlungu yendlala, intlupheko nentswelo-misebenzi.

Phaya emaphandleni kuxhalatywa ngakumbi xa kusiza imini yepeyi. Izolo oku izikrelemnqa zihluthe i-1,2 yezigidi zeerandi kufuphi naseNgqeleni, i-1,6 yezigidi zeerandi eMtata, isigidi seerandi ngaseFlagstaff, kanti ama-300 000 eerandi ahluthwe ngaseDebe Nek. Iyonke le mali sisi-4,1 sezigidi zeerandi, mali leyo ebiyabelwe ukususa ikati eziko.

Ukubethwa ngemf’ iphindiwe yimibutho emibini, u-Cash Paymaster Services no- All Pay, eyabelwa ukusondeza izibonelelo zikaRhulumente eluntwini itsho uluntu lwabambelela esidleleni, lwaphelelwa lithemba. Le mibutho mibini ilukhwankqisile uluntu. Yaleke iingxaki phezu kweengxaki ezifana nezi: ukufika ukutshona kwelanga kwiindawo ekwamkeliswa kuzo, imingcelele emide abantu belambile, ukugqatswa lilanga empengempengeni bengenamithunzi nendawo yokusithela xa limathumb’ antaka. UKufela komntu emgceni kwenza urhulumente wephondo leMpuma Koloni wathabathela u-CPS amanye amanyathelo.

Ewe, masivane ukuba ukuziswa kwezibonelelo eluntwini kuyahluka kumaphondo olithoba. Kwamanye amaphondo siyancoma, kwamanye sigxeka sincoma. Xa kusaziwa ukuba siyeza siyiKomiti yoPhuhliso loLuntu siyalungiselelwa siboniswe iindawo ezicwangciselwe thina. Siye ke xa kunje siphume ecaleni sicele ukusiwa kwiindawo ezikhethwe sithi. Hayi ke, uya kuzandisela esiye sifike sikubone - intlungu nentlupheko ebhalwe ebusweni babantu. Uncumo oluye lusihlangabeze bakuva abantu ukuba siphuma kundlunkulu eKapa. Olu ncumo luqulethe ithemba lokuba size kubakhulula emakhamandeleni entlupheko. Le Mithetho iYilwayo mibini ke izalisekisa ikwafezekisa elo themba. Ngale ntsasa sivuka nezinye ezikwambethe ezi ntsizana zixhomekeke kwizibonelelo zikaRhulumente. Phaya eBhizana, kumntla-mpuma Koloni, abantu baphucwe ama-45 000 eerandi kwaze kwathatyathwa nezazisi zabo. Siva kwangabo ukuba ukuze bayifumane inkamnkam okanye isibonelelo kufuneka barhume ama-280 eerandi.

Izinto ezikumila kunje zenze ukuba undlunkulu, iNdlu yoWiso-mthetho, athabathele kuye uxanduva lokusa ngqo ebantwini iinkonzo ezingundoqo nempilo eluntwini, ukuze luxhamle ubomi obububo. Isimbonono esivakala nasebuthongweni sisuka kumazantsi esisu kwabo bachatshazelwa ziinkonzo ezihesheheshe zibangela ukuba uKrec’ izulu avakalelwe, anyanzelise ukuba le Mithetho iYilwayo ize ngaphambili ukuze kuphele isijwili.

Ezi Bhili zimbini ziphambi kwethu zizalisekisa amalungelo angundoqo akuMqulu waMalungelo oLuntu. Kudalwa iarhente, i-SA Social Security Agency, eya kuqwalasela ukulawulwa nokuhlawulwa kwezibonelelo eluntwini kwanezinye iinkonzo ezayamene noko.

Ngale ndlela uMphathiswa weSebe loPhuhliso loLuntu uthabathele kuye ulawulo nentlawulo. Owona msebenzi ungundoqo wale arhente kukulawula nokuqinisekisa ngokufaneleka nokungafaneleki kwezibonelelo zomceli ngamnye, ukuze ngaloo ndlela kuliwe ukuhliswa ngemilenze kweemali zikaRhulumente. Le arhente inokwenza isivumelwano nezinye iinkampani ezifuna ukuncedisa, kodwa kufuneka iqiniseke ukuba loo nkampani iya kuwenza lo msebenzi ngenyameko nokuzimisela.

UMphathiswa uya kuncediswa kulo msebenzi ngokuthi azichongele igosa elifanelekileyo eliya kuthi lilawule le arhente, i-CEO ngokwasemlungwini. Eli gosa liphantsi koMphathiswa ngqo, nelenza intando yakhe, nalo liya kuqesha abancedisi abazinikeleyo kumsebenzi wabo. Iinjongo zale nquleqhu kukuzama ukuphucula iinkonzo ezayamene nezibonelelo eluntwini.

Umbono kaRhulumente kukuba le arhente ibe sisikhululo sokugqibela, kodwa ukuze eli phulo libe yimpumelelo, kufuneka intsebenziswano phakathi kweSebe loPhuhliso loLuntu neSebe leMicimbi yezeKhaya. Aba Baphathiswa babini kufuneka belele ngangubonye. Akukho mntu unokufumana isibonelelo sikaRhulumente ngaphandle kwesazisi.

Ukungasebenzisani kakuhle kwala masebe kuko okudala iingxaki ebantwini. Aba Baphathiswa bobabini basePitoli kundlunkulu, izigqibo maziphakwe zifike ebantwini ziseshushu. UMthetho oYilwayo onxulumene nezibonelelo eluntwini, i-Social Assistance Bill, uzisiphula neengcambu izenzo ezigwenxa zokuzama ukuhlisa ngemilenze izibonelelo zabantu.

Lo Mthetho uYilwayo ukwabonelela iimbedlenge ezithi zishiywe enyanyeni ngulowo ebezamkelela. Iarhente inalo igunya lokutyumba omnye umntu ukuba amkelele loo mbedlenge. Akukho mntu omakagoduke engaphethanga nto kuba kungekho mntu wakumnceda. Ingxaki yokuba umntu ebefuna isibonelelo, suka axelelwe emgceni ukuba isibonelelo sakhe siphelile, kwanento yokurhuma amagosa kaRhulumente, incothulwe neengcambu. Urhwaphilizo lofa namthanyana. Iimali ziya kuya kubantu ababelwe zona. Liya kunina. Masiguqukele kubavoti ngelithi: Ingwe idla ngamabala. Niyayibona imisebenzi kaKhongolose kule minyaka nje ilishumi. Kucace okwekati emhlophe ehlungwini ukuba lo Rhulumente ukhokelwa yi-ANC usaya kude neli lizwe.

Uphuhliso loluntu yeyona nto ingundoqo kuRhulumente. Ukugxotha indlala nokudala amathuba emisebenzi zezona zithembiso kubantu abasemaphandleni. Mgwebe umntu ngakuthembise kona waza akakwenza. Ncoma akufezekisileyo ebekuthembisile. Makugwetywe ubuhlwempu, kugwetyelwe intlutha nobutyebi; kushenxiselwe imida yokulala ngamanzi. Ncincilili! [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa speech follows.)

[Prof L M MBADI: Chairperson, hon Minister of Social Development and your colleagues, the House at large, this is an important day to the people who voted us in here; a historic day on which twin Bills were introduced simultaneously in the National Assembly. They are twins in the sense that the one cannot work without the other. When you say: Social Security Agency Bill'', you have to say:Social Assistance Bill’’. They are twins, and they go together. [Interjections.] The problems encountered in the process of extending grants to the people gave the leaders in the ANC-led Government sleepless nights, with the Minister trying his level best to deliver people from hunger, poverty and unemployment.

People in the rural areas are anxious on the eve of the pension payout. Just yesterday robbers got away with R1,2 million near Ngqeleni, R1,6 million in Umtata, R1 million near Flagstaff, and R300 000 near Debe Nek. All this money, which comes to a total of R4,1 million, was allocated for poverty eradication.

The deception of the two companies, Cash Paymaster Services and All Pay, which were entrusted with distributing Government grants among the people, has left the people dumbfounded and despondent. These two companies have disappointed the people. They have brought with them additional problems, such as: arriving late at the paypoint, people standing in long queues, hungry and exposed to elements such as heat and rain, without any shelter. The death of a pensioner in a queue prompted the government of the Eastern Cape to take action against CPS.

Yes, let us agree that the distribution of Government grants to the people varies from province to province. In some provinces it is commendable, and in others not so bad. When we pay visits as the Portfolio Committee on Social Development, we are often taken to places specially prepared for us. In such cases we usually ask to be taken to places chosen by us. Well, I leave the rest to your imagination - the pain and suffering written all over people’s faces. The people suddenly smile when they hear that we are from the national Parliament. These smiles signify the people’s hope that we are going to deliver them from the shackles of poverty. These two Bills represent the fulfilment of that hope.

This morning we woke up to some disturbing news concerning these poor people who depend on Government grants. We got the news that at Bhizana, in the north-eastern part of the Eastern Cape, people were robbed of R45 000 and of their IDs. They also told us that in order to get their grants they had to pay R280,00.

These events have prompted the national department to take upon itself the responsibility of distributing essential services direct to the people so that they can enjoy a better life. The poignant cries of helplessness by those affected by this ineffective service touched the Minister of Social Development, so much so that he demanded that these two Bills be introduced.

The two Bills before us are a fulfilment of the basic rights in the Bill of Rights. An agency is being created, the SA Social Security Agency, which will handle the administration and payment of grants to the people as well as dealing with related services.

In this way the Minister of Social Development has taken upon himself the responsibility for the administration and payment of grants. The main task of this agency is to administer and consider applications for grants, in order to prevent the embezzlement of Government moneys. This agency can come into agreement with other companies, but it has to make sure that the company it comes into agreement with will carry out its mandate efficiently and diligently.

The Minister will appoint an official he deems suitable to manage this agency, in other words a CEO. This official, who reports directly to the Minister and does his bidding, will also appoint dedicated people to help him. All this is done in an effort to improve services related to Government grants.

Government’s view is that this agency should be the last port of call, but in order for this to happen there has to be co-operation between the Departments of Social Development and of Home Affairs. The Ministers of these two departments have to work closely. Nobody can receive a Government grant without an ID.

Lack of co-operation between these two departments causes problems for the people. Both Ministers are based in Pretoria, therefore decisions should filter down to the people without delay. The Social Assistance Bill is meant to uproot any attempts to embezzle Government grants.

This Bill also provides for the invalids who are left in the lurch by those who were getting grants on their behalf. The agency has the authority to appoint a person to get a grant on their behalf. No one should go home empty-handed because there was no one to help.

The fact that somebody who has been getting a grant is told in the queue that his or her grant has been withdrawn, and the bribing of Government officials, are things of the past. The days of corruption are numbered. The moneys will go to those for whom they were intended. Let us turn to the voters and say: Be the judge. You have seen the achievements of the ANC over the past 10 years. It is crystal clear that the ANC-led Government will take this country further.

People development is priority number one for the Government. We promise poverty alleviation and the creation of job opportunities for people in the rural areas. Judge a person by what he or she has promised you and failed to deliver. Praise him or her for what he or she promised and delivered. Let plenteousness and richness prevail over poverty, so that people can stop going to sleep on empty stomachs. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Deputy Chairperson and hon members, the Bill seeks to give effect to what the President of the Republic said on the occasion of his state of the nation address. He stated that a social security agency would be established this year. At the time we in the UCDP, though not averse to the agency, cautioned that the Public Service should be lean and mean, and not compounded with more bureaucrats.

The rampant looting of money from vulnerable people by some unscrupulous officers has seen us meeting our Damascus and supporting the urgent establishment of the agency. Corruption and mismanagement of social grants in the provinces calls for a more hands-on and hawk-like agency to deal with all grants. Only last night we saw on national television how people in Bizana and Lusikisiki continue to abuse the trust given to them by Government. This cannot be allowed to go any further. A national social security agency has to be put in place to obviate disparities in the payment of grants in the provinces.

We have noted the ruling by Justice Shongwe to the effect that provinces should not have been allowed to handle social grants in the first place. We hope the Constitutional Court will uphold the ruling. The hope is that, once established and operating, the agency will serve the needy and deserving people honestly. There should be no room for the current stock borrowers in the envisaged agency.

The establishment of the inspectorate for social assistance is most welcome, as they would be able to nip some of the indiscretions in the bud. We hope the agency will work closely with other state organs such as the Department of Home Affairs in requesting the fast-tracking of the issuing of identity documents to people who qualify for grants.

We in the UCDP appreciate all the Minister is doing in fighting corruption and fraud in all their facets. He has proved to be hands-on and procedural in dealing with deviant officers, like he did with CEO of the National Development Agency.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon member!

Mr I S MFUNDISI: The UCDP will support the Bill.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: And order to the members again. I think you are once again indulging in private conversations. [Interjections.] Order, hon members!

Miss S RAJBALLY: Deputy Chairperson, the MF is pleased with the undertaking in this Bill, that is, making the underprivileged and those in need a priority. Often these people are made to feel like nobody cares and the MF is proud of our Government for making an effort to represent the needs of all its people with no reservation. Our aim of eradicating poverty and stimulating social development is strengthened by Bills such as these.

Social security services for the less fortunate provide a glimmer of hope. However, as noted, the system does have its loopholes, which provisions to this Bill aim to fix. The MF feels that the introduction of the SA Social Security Agency shall be of great benefit to the enhancement and management of social delivery. Our people do not deserve and cannot afford the disappointment of failed service delivery as it was under the apartheid government, when social grants were paid in different scales to different races.

It is our duty to ensure that social services are delivered effectively, efficiently and evenly. The MF feels that every effort must be made to ensure this. The MF has no objections to provisions made in terms of the Minister in the Social Assistance Bill. It is felt that a system should be rendered to the Minister at the best of the department’s ability. Further support is given to the similar provision made for the director-general in respect of social assistance.

The MF notes the cumbersome task and supports the assistance to be given. No objection is given to provisions made for persons who in these circumstances have been delegated powers. Further clarity and provisions provided in terms of regulation and repeal of legislation have been well compiled for efficient management. The MF supports the South African Social Security Bill and Social Assistance Bill. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.

Mr M L DA CAMARA: Chairperson, millions of people in South Africa are totally dependent on a social grant, making these pieces of legislation some of the most important which this House will pass this year. Reform of the way services are rendered to beneficiaries and improvement of the types of grants they receive are long overdue and, therefore, welcome.

But we are looking at the final products before us today. It must be noted that these two Bills achieve neither. Instead of bringing in appropriate reform, including the improvement of information management and the extension of options to beneficiaries, the South African Social Security Agency Bill at best only brings uncertainty and the perpetuation of poor services that people experience or, at worst, jeopardises the receipt of grants by the most vulnerable people in our society.

The department was unable to assure the committee that the introduction of the agency would bring real changes on the ground. Important questions such as, Will the same people who provide poor services at present continue in their posts?'' andWill the same cumbersome information in management systems remain?’’ were not answered. Should this be the case, then beneficiaries can expect no changes at all.

Poor conception of the envisaged changes runs the risk of letting down the very people the system set out to serve. Let us be reminded, hon members, of the last time the department undertook an overhaul of the system. Hundreds of thousands of beneficiaries went without their grants for months, and in some instances for over a year. This led to untold hardship and misery. It should not be allowed to happen again. An ill-conceived change which takes place without challenging those problems on the ground that create inefficiencies runs the risk of preventing people from getting their desperately needed grants.

Many questions go unanswered when it comes to how this will affect the provinces. It has been well documented that the welfare and development services in provinces are not what they should be. Due to resource constraints, it is understandable that provinces use the grant administration system to support the little that they can provide in terms of welfare services. What will happen to the infrastructure, capacity and resources needed by social workers to administer the foster care system so as to attend to children at risk and assess children in conflict with the law, should this go through?

Show me an MP in this House who does not know about the problems of child- headed households and street children, then I will show you an MP who lives on a different planet; perhaps the same planet that the Government lives on. [Interjections.]

The HIV/Aids pandemic has left our country with the tragedy of large and growing numbers of children affected by the disease. This has forced many children to become adults in their own families or move onto the streets. In these Bills, Government has chosen to turn a blind eye to this terrible reality, completely ignoring what the facts on the ground, civil society and common sense tell us - that the number of vulnerable children will grow into millions in the near future because of the pandemic. Yet Government refuses to acknowledge this. Instead, the Social Assistance Bill makes it impossible for children living in child-headed households in the communities most affected by Aids to access the grants - the same grants that this Bill entitles them to.

Street children and the NGOs that attempt to help them are similarly disregarded and abandoned by the state. To say that the Children’s Bill now before Parliament will deal with these issues is to be, at the very least, disingenuous. The original Bill, painstakingly crafted over five years through thorough consultation, has been totally emasculated, abandoning children to a terrible fate. By choosing not to make provision for these children, despite the state having the capacity to contribute to those children’s brighter future, Government has condemned these children to a dim future without hope and our country to potential instability brought on by growing numbers of neglected children. What a terrible shame!

It is with immense sadness that the DA cannot support these Bills. Thank you.

Ms N M TSHEOLE: Deputy Chairperson, hon Ministers and hon members, humility and confidence are two sides of the same coin. In the ANC we are not only confident about our mandate, which was given to us by the electorate in 1999, we are also prepared to carry out this mandate with humility. [Applause.]

These two Bills are once again proof that we are still on course regarding our mandate to create a better life for all and to push back the frontiers of poverty. The same Bills are also evidence of our humility, which allows us, the ANC, to take stock of our performance at regular intervals. We regularly do that. It shows our preparedness to acknowledge shortcomings, as well as our efforts to improve on such shortcomings. That is the ANC.

The Bills we are debating today are part of the efforts by the ANC-led Government to improve on some of the shortcomings identified in service delivery. All the members who have been coming here have alluded to these challenges. However, it is necessary to point out that, prepared as we are to engage in self-improvement and self-criticism, we are equally vigilant concerning destructive, or rather detracting criticism. We are aware that some of the criticisms towards these Bills are not genuine.

If we had put a comprehensive, new Child Care Act here addressing all these issues that the hon members are raising, we would still be criticised. If we had not tabled any Bills, yes, the hon members would have a tool to go to the electorate and say, ``There was never any Bill.’’ We are aware of such detracting moves. We are very aware of them. Do not think that we do not see them. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: There is a Bill now, but it is very bad. Ms N M TSHEOLE: Hon members, much as the hon members on my left-hand side can say whatever they want to say, we are aware that they are trying to detract us. We are not going to allow them to detract us from our course. [Interjections.]

People who have never lived in poverty will not understand why a homeless person, when he or she is about to build a house, erects a shack next to that. People who have never lived in poverty, when they build houses, rent a flat whilst the house is being constructed. [Applause.] A poor person can rather go and buy prefabs, use the money to live in a sheltered place, which is a shack, whilst constructing his home.

This is what we are doing. Do we have to leave people in the open, in exposure and say that as long as we do not have a comprehensive social security system, as long as we do not have a comprehensive Child Care Act, we are not going to have any other Bill to do certain things? We are aware of the problems. We are aware of the child-headed households. Some of us grew up alone in our homes when our mothers and fathers were domestics. We had child-headed households. [Applause.]

It is unfortunate that the hon members are only now becoming aware of children heading households. We have been heading households when our mothers were domestics in the urban areas. [Applause.] It is not a new concept. Here we are, we are now representatives. I am going to speak to our electorate and, unfortunately, I have not arranged for interpretation.

Bagaetsho, ga re le latlhelele matsogo. Re a itse gore bana e sala e le dikhutsana, mme re a itse gore ga se la ntlha bana e sala e le dikhutsana. Re ikuela mo go batho ba ba tshelang le bana bao ra re, se ba tlogeleng, Puso e teng, e tlile go le tshegetsa. Ba ba tlang kwa go lona ba re fa re sa ntsha molao o o tlhokomelang dikhutsana tse tsa gaabo rona ga re ba kgathalalele, ga ba bue nnete. Lo a itse gore gore le Child Support Grant ba ne ba e ganetsa fa re e simolola. (Translation of Tswana paragraphs follows.)

[Ladies and gentlemen, we are not abandoning you. We know that children are left as orphans, and we know that this is not for the first time for the children to be left as orphans. We appeal to the people who live with these children by saying that they should not leave them; the Government is there to support them. As for those who come to you and say that we should pass a law that looks after our orphans, we do not care about such people and they are not telling the truth. You know that they were also against the child support grant when we started it.]

I remember in 1998, when we introduced the child support grant, there was lots of talk. This is not new. Do not be distracted. This is not new. There were times when they said to our people:

During the apartheid era we were getting R135, now the ANC says that the children will get R100. Are they implying that children who were privileged are better than children who were disadvantaged?

This is a known fact, you used to say that. We are not going to be distracted. We are going ahead with these two Bills, because we want a better life for all. In our policy we say, Batho Pele. We put people first, so there is no way we can be distracted.

The two Bills, as it has already been indicated here, are a step towards the implementation of the Taylor Committee’s report. I am surprised that here they avoided mentioning the basic income grant, because they have been pushing for the comprehensive implementation of the Taylor Committee Report; they wanted to hang onto the big basic income grant. It is not the case. We are aware of the motives. We can read between the lines.

The other thing, with regard to the monitoring, is that we know that we have had all the grants. The Social Assistance Bill, as it has been mentioned, introduces the inspectorate that is going to monitor the delivery of the grants - all the grants that we have. Now people are saying, ``It is going to fail.’’

Why do you already pre-empt what is going to happen? Do you perhaps have certain people posted in the departments whom you are going to support, to make sure that the system fails? Why do you pre-empt it? Have you planted some third force within the department that is going to ensure that things fail? Do not do that, because you make us think a lot. [Interjections.]

Do not talk about that, because you moved out of the ANC. We do not want to talk about those things. Do not distract me. They are not aware that as they talk against these Bills, they are in fact highlighting their significance and the significance of all the social services, the grants.

The hon Borman indicated that 9 million people are benefiting from these grants. That is a good effort. I am glad that you mentioned it. Whilst figures differ - some will say 9 million people whilst others will say 8 million people, whatever the number - the fact is, as the hon Masutha indicated, it is a big improvement, and we are claiming this progress, we are claiming the success.

As the ANC, we know that the fact that we are passing these Bills shows that we have identified weaknesses and are trying to rectify them. We are not going to run away from the shortcomings. We know that, as human beings, we are going to have shortcomings and we are addressing them. Do not distract us. Please do not do that.

Let us now look at the issue of the advertisements. She indicated … [Interjections.] The hon Masutha has responded to that, I am not going to touch that issue. It is a sad story, as the hon Da Camara indicated, to be against these Bills. But thank you, you have given us a tool to go and slash you in front of the electorate. We are going to say, ``They do not want an improvement’’.

We are also going to remind you that you have been opposing each and every Bill that is transforming anything that is not good. Every Bill, whether it is in health, education or social development, you oppose. Thank you for giving us that, we are going to tell the electorate that. Thank you. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Carry on. Ms N M TSHEOLE: Thank you. My mike was off. No, I meant to say that it was low. You have also … [Laughter.] They make me laugh, hon members, because they are just like that. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: You make us laugh!

Ms N M TSHEOLE: They make me laugh, they want to distract me, but I still have time. [Interjections.] I am just pausing to give you a chance. When people howl at you like they are doing, it is because you are telling them the truth. [Applause.] Definitely. It is because I am telling the truth. [Laughter.] I usually do not get distracted, but this hon member … [Interjections.] Chairperson, will you protect me from these people? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I think we have had enough. Let the hon member now complete her speech.

An HON MEMBER: The best thing you can do is to sit down. The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon members! Continue.

Ms N M TSHEOLE: The hon Southgate indicated that the system, as it is, does not warrant the transfer of the delivery of the grants from provinces to the national Government. I do not know where she comes from. Doesn’t she realise or didn’t she hear that even the court yesterday ruled that these grants have to be paid centrally?

They keep on talking about the Taylor Commission Report, but when that report recommends the main thing, ie comprehensive social security, they say no, why transfer? You find that you will never know what they really want. Which part of the report have they read? What have you read, hon member?

Hon Inka Mars refers to a number of issues, for example assets and the other things she mentioned. We said that this is a step towards the comprehensive system. Those are other things that are going to be dealt with when the whole social security system is made comprehensive and implemented.

I do not see why we should raise certain things when we are just introducing the system. Are they saying that we must just wait? Like I said earlier on, people who have never lived in a shack will be surprised why poor people live in shacks. We are used to such conditions, although we do not enjoy them, but we are determined and nothing is going to stop us from improving them through the adoption of these Bills.

Ms N M TSHEOLE: Thank you, hon members. I am sorry for having allowed myself to be distracted. The ANC supports these Bills.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chair, I am not going to take much time. But I just want to say, from the beginning, that I think that some of the remarks that have been made, specifically by the DA, are below my dignity to answer and I will not stoop so low.

However, I would really advise the hon Tony Leon and the hon Seremane to talk to their members to understand, basically, what is at stake and to also look at the history of this House and this Parliament, where all these policies come from. These policies do not come from the sky: they come from the discussions and debates that have taken place in this House and in this country over the past six, seven years. Quite obviously, they are unaware of that or they don’t want to know that. [Interjections.]

They don’t want to know the fact that these policies basically come from the Chikane Commission and the recommendations of the Public Service Commission on the issues of social services and social welfare in this country. I think they need to be ignored by any normal person in this House. Their remarks are not worthwhile.

I was a little bit puzzled, actually saddened, by the remarks that were made by some of the members. However, I would try to respond with all humility to the remarks made by the hon member Mars, for instance, from the IFP. You are aware, first of all hon member, that the issue of social security and, basically, the issue of the Department of Social Development and, to a large extent, its policies were very much a compromise with the IFP. That was very much so and you know that very well.

With your background in the field, you would definitely know, basically, that this is a national function. You would definitely know that it was, basically, after talks - I was still Minister for the Public Service and Administration at that time - between the Minister at that time and Cabinet that the ANC agreed, reluctantly, to this function being brought to the level of provinces. You remember that very, very well. So, naturally, this was never a provincial function. It was a national function. But simply because we wanted to work with the IFP, in particular, we agreed to that.

Unfortunately, a lot of problems occurred at the time, and in the final analysis we did see, even then, that there were problems which, to a very large extent, led to the problems that surrounded the former Minister Mr Abe Williams, and you know that very well. You know that on the basis of these problems we set up the Chikane Commission and the Public Service Commission, which made all the necessary recommendations, and it took more than two or three years of discussions within the welfare sector and with NGOs to try to resolve these issues and to come to the present decision. So it is not something new that we are talking about at the present moment.

However, at the same time, another point is that the setting up of the agency will give the department and the Government more time to concentrate on welfare services, which at the present moment do not receive the necessary attention they deserve. I think that this is one thing we should also look into, which is part and parcel of the decisions that we are talking about at the present moment.

I am a little bit saddened actually that some of the issues that have been raised here are more ideological than factual, because sometimes they show very little understanding of the issues and research that has taken place, which is part and parcel of the broader consultation process that we have had with our community.

With that, I think I want to take this opportunity to thank the portfolio committee for the amount of work that they produced.

Ndithi ningadinwa nangomso. Kuse kude phambili. Masisebenzisane kunye. Abantu bakuthi baziinkosi zethu. Nangamso. [I say thank you very much. We still have a long way to go. Let’s work together. Our people are our masters.] [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Questions put: That the South African Social Security Agency Bill be read a second time.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 222: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, S F; Bapela, O; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Cindi, N V; Cronin, J P; Daniels, N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeebodh, T; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Lamani, N E; Lekgoro, M K; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, V D; Madikiza, G T; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makanda, W G; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Manie, M S; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S; Meruti, V; Mfundisi, I S; Mkono, D G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Mnumzana, S K; Moatshe, M S; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nobunga, B J; Nonkonyana, M; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana- Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, S N; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Rasmeni, S M; Ratsoma, M M; Rhoda, R T; Ripinga, S S; Robertsen, M O; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E (Cassim); Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seeco, M A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Sibande, M P; Sigcau, S N; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sosibo, J E; Tarr, M A; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Twala, N M; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, Annelizé; Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Van den Heever, R P Z; Zondo, R P.

NOES - 44: Bell, B G; Blaas, A; Borman, G M; Da Camara, M L; Delport, J T; Dhlamini, B W; Dudley, C; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Ferreira, E T; Gibson, D H M; Green, L M; Grobler, G A J; Hlengwa, W M; Jankielsohn, R; Koornhof, N J van R; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Lucas, E J; Maluleke, D K; Mars, I; Middleton, N S; Millin, T E; Moorcroft, E K; Mpontshane, A M; Nel, A H; Ngema, M V; Ntuli, R S; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Roopnarain, U; Schmidt, H C; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Sibiya, M S M; Smuts, M; Southgate, R M; Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Vezi, T E; Waters, M; Zulu, N E.

Question agreed to.

South African Social Security Agency Bill accordingly read a second time.

Question put: That the Social Assistance Bill be read a second time.

Division demanded.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon members. There seems to be a problem with the voting system. We might have to rerun it. Can you give us a few more minutes? [Interjections.]

Order! Order, hon members. The voting system is still giving us problems, so we will have to postpone the decision on the question. We will ask the Secretary to the National Assembly to discuss with the Whips of the parties the question of when this vote will be held again.

                       NATIONAL GAMBLING BILL

                       (Second Reading debate)

THE MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Thank you, Chairperson. Let me just say that I deny completely that the failure in the voting system had anything to do with gambling.

Chairperson and members, the National Gambling Bill that has been tabled today replaces the National Gambling Act of 1996.

CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Minister, can you give me a minute? Order! Hon Members, Order! Order! Please continue, hon Minister.

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Thank you, Chair. The National Gambling Bill replaces the National Gambling Act of 1996 which has served us for the past seven years. In this time, we have learned much and this experience has caused us to revise the legislation. The new Bill seeks to improve our ability to effectively regulate this very large cash-based industry, to enhance co-operative governance as outlined in the Constitution, and also seeks to introduce new measures to address the potentially negative socioeconomic consequences of gambling on our communities. As you may recall, gambling was legalised in 1996 as an activity regulated concurrently by national and provincial government.

Gambling is a matter on which there are strong views in our society. However, the Government’s view has been a pragmatic one in that it acknowledges the human penchant for gambling and believes it better to regulate the industry than to seek to outlaw it, whereby inevitably creating a whole new group of criminal acts. By regulating the industry, we can both curb excess and the adverse social impact and achieve certain socioeconomic policy objectives. Four public policy objectives were identified which were to be met by the industry. These objectives included the promotion of black economic empowerment, the creation of employment, the creation of new fixed investment and infrastructure and the generation of revenue.

The gambling industry today is an industry that generates about R7 billion in turnover and is a significant employer, accounting for about 50 000 direct and indirect jobs.

THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! Hon members, there is far too much noise!

THE MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: The industry contributed …

THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Will members please take their seats. Order! Please continue, hon Minister.

THE MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: The industry contributes about R490 billion in gambling tax and has directly generated almost R12 billion in new fixed investments and infrastructure. In addition, advances have been made in respect to black economic empowerment, although recently concerns have been raised in this regard. We now better understand the need for uniformity of regulation and how to seek to address negative socioeconomic consequences of gambling as well as some undesirable marketing practices.

The National Gambling Act of 1996 was enacted at a time when the principles of the Constitution and the need for co-operative governance were as yet untested. In 1996, our focus was on eradicating a large illegal gambling industry that had developed under the apartheid regime. The illegal gambling industry has been brought under control to a significant extent in many regions. As we have tightened our control over cash movements and potential money laundering or illicit financing operations, we now have to ensure proper and effective oversight over an industry that is primarily cash-based.

In tabling the new National Gambling Bill, we seek to address these challenges: clarifying the roles between national and provincial regulators; creating common norms and standards for provincial licensing activities; establishing mechanisms for co-operative governance; implementing enhanced measures of oversight and control; and addressing, pro-actively, some of the negative socioeconomic consequences of gambling.

The Bill introduces a number of measures to minimise the socioeconomic costs of gambling. In particular, it provides for enhanced protection of minors; prohibiting access to gambling areas and access to gambling activities by minors; restriction on granting of credit to gamblers; a scheme of exclusion whereby addicted gamblers can exclude themselves or a court can order a person, upon request from a dependant, to be excluded from access to gambling activities; restriction on advertising or promotion of gambling activities in order to prevent persons being induced to gamble; and the setting of standards for gambling premises including, for example, how the gambling floor should be separated from other activities and what notices must be posted.

These new measures are aimed primarily at prevention but also at cure. For this reason, the Bill imposes an explicit obligation on the National Gambling Board and the provincial gambling boards to monitor negative socioeconomic impact and to conduct broad-based education programmes to educate the public about the risks of gambling and potential risks. Other measures to limit potential socioeconomic costs also include requirements for licensing decisions, such as the impact of proposed gambling activities on the community.

Furthermore, in recognition of the potentially detrimental impact that the introduction of LPMs may have on society, the Bill requires the phased implementation of these machines, with each phase being punctuated by socioeconomic impact assessments.

The Bill further requires provincial licensing authorities to evaluate commitments by industry to black economic empowerment and, when considering a licence or a licence renewal, it enables the provincial regulators to impose additional conditions when various commitments have not been met. The Bill introduces measures to enhance control over the gambling industry. These measures include the establishment of a national register of gambling machines which will track every gambling machine throughout the course of its useful life. It is expected that this mechanism will assist significantly with the monitoring and control over illegal gambling machines and with the work of the SA Police Services. In addition, the re- enactment of the requirement that all limited payout machines are linked to a national central electronic monitoring system will ensure that we will be able to detect any tampering with the machines and their payouts, and ensure accurate statement of revenues and allow for the detection of money- laundering activities.

Another key objective of the Bill is to clarify the roles of national and provincial regulators and to eliminate, where possible and where constitutionally feasible, any duplication or overlap. In this regard this Bill introduces a scheme of national licences for manufacturers, testing agents of gambling equipment and employees of the gambling industry. The board sets the criteria at the national level, but the Bill provides for provincial licensing authorities to issue all licences, whether national or provincial. The role of the National Gambling Board is to monitor and oversee the industry, its socioeconomic impact and the effectiveness of provincial regulators to advise the National Gambling Policy Council accordingly on matters of concern and policy.

Finally, the Bill seeks to harmonise provincial activities by introducing norms and standards for provincial licensing activities. In Chapter 4, we are establishing the National Gambling Policy Council, consisting of the Minister and the executive council members, to develop national norms and standards, to develop national policy in respect of gambling, and to promote inter-governmental relations in respect of the gambling industry.

The National Gambling Bill 2003 thus gives expression to the objectives that I have outlined at the beginning of my speech, namely enhanced oversight and control over the gambling industry, improved co-operative governance, and the minimisation of the negative socioeconomic consequences.

Yet again, let me express my thanks to the portfolio committee who have helped us to steer the legislation to this point and for the valuable contributions they have made in doing so. Thanks to my provincial colleagues and their officials for their assistance and input. Thanks to the DTI and the National Gambling Board for their hard work. I must also say a special word of thanks to many people in the industry and in various social groups who went out of their way to ensure that we address economic need and reality, whilst ensuring social responsibility. I commend the Bill to the House.

Dr R H DAVIES: Chairperson, the Minister has just outlined the basic strategic approach to regulation that the Government has been following in respect of gambling since 1994. My understanding of this is that it sets out from a recognition that gambling is a potentially harmful activity, not just because there is potential for a relatively small number of players of gambling games to become addicted or compulsive gamblers, but also because there is potential for gambling to be promoted among poor people and communities in ways that result in significant transfers of resources from lower income people to the only consistent winners of gambling games, namely the owners and operators of gambling activities.

However, this approach is also based on the need to take account of existing and historical realities. Under apartheid, legal gambling was limited to betting on horses in most of the country with casinos permitted only in the so-called rural homelands. These were, however, not the only forms of gambling that emerged in South Africa before 1994. A sizeable illegal casino industry grew up in major towns and cities, frequented by a significant number of punters. Under such circumstances, the approach to regulation is premised on the view that outright prohibition would be both unenforceable in that it would tend to drive the industry underground and undesirable in that it would criminalise activities engaged in by many ordinary people.

Instead, the approach to regulation seeks to create a controlled and limited legal gambling industry based on certain basic norms and standards while acting vigorously against illegal gambling. Accepting, as I believe most of us do, that this broad paradigm does not resolve all debates. There remain a number of very real policy choices and decisions including how much of what kind of activity should be permitted and what controls and regulations should be placed on the different forms.

All of this has to take into account the relevant schedules of the Constitution which provide that casinos, racing, gambling and wagering is an area of concurrent national and provincial legislative competence.

The Bill before the House today provides a coherent framework for national and provincial government to work together in a spirit of co-operative governance in the regulation of this industry. In particular, it clarifies a number of issues of jurisdiction that were unclear in the 1996 Act, essentially by allowing national legislation and structures set up in terms of this Bill to determine the basic norms and standards for both the conduct and the roll-out of gambling activity.

One of the most intense debates that took place in the portfolio committee was over the approach to limited pay-out machines. These are more popularly known as one-armed bandits for the simple reason that when one sticks one’s money in them, one is robbed. Some have asked why we in the portfolio committee focused so much on this particular form of gambling. The answer of course is that legal limited pay-out machines have not yet been rolled out on an extensive scale. Only some of the provinces have authorised the roll-out of a relatively small number. Several provinces are in the midst of sharp debates about whether or not to do so, and many communities and civil society groups have expressed themselves against this.

Members of the committee were also well aware of the results of research commissioned by the National Gambling Board which would indicate that South Africa is ranked 14th among 50 leading gambling countries of the world in terms of gross gambling turnover. This is a very high ranking, particularly compared to the ranking of this country at 29th in terms of gross domestic product and 91st in terms of per capita income.

The clear majority of us in the committee were convinced that, under such circumstances, any mass roll-outs of limited pay-out machines would be extremely problematic, more particularly so if these were targeted at areas and facilities frequented by low-income people. We were told in the public hearings that operators had calculated that each machine could deliver a gross revenue, after paying winnings, of between twelve hundred and fifteen hundred rands a week. If the existing maximum proposed roll-out of 50 000 machines countrywide, itself a reduction from some of the ambitions of certain interests, were to be proceeded with, this would mean a diversion of resources of between R3,1 and R3,8 billion from consumption to the operators of limited payout machines.

In the course of our deliberations, the Limited Payout Machines Association and Fabcos both implicitly acknowledged the concern in this regard. During our proceedings, they wrote to us offering to accept a lower maximum of 30

1. This is a move in the right direction but, in the view of the portfolio committee, this is not enough. After a long and passionate debate, we eventually opted for continuing with the approach of regulation and control, rather than embarking on an alternative, potentially litigation-prone course of outright prohibition.

The Bill provides for the Minister to strictly regulate a phased-in introduction of limited payout machines and also regulate their location and the conduct of their operations. Any decision to move from one phase to the next must be based on an ongoing assessment of their socioeconomic impact.

It is the strong view of the majority in the portfolio committee that the first phase should involve only a small number of limited payout machines. During the hearings, the LPMA told us that they had no intention of targeting the roll-out at poor people and that their preferred target market was more affluent people for whom playing limited payout machines would be a minor form of entertainment.

It is my earnest hope that any limited payout machines that do find a place in our leisure industry occupy precisely such a niche. Anyone who envisages a future for one-armed bandits in our society had better take steps to ensure that we do not again see scenes on our television such as those we saw a few weeks ago of pensioners putting their money into LPMs in the vain hope of solving their financial problems. Public opinion simply would not stand for this.

While the LPM issue commanded a good deal of our attention in the committee, there were also a number of other amendments introduced by us. The Bill before the House provides for, among other things, regulations to be issued, restricting the granting of credit to gamblers, for a prohibition on false and misleading advertising as well as, subject to regulation, on the provision of free discounted services as an inducement to gamble.

During the course of our proceedings, the committee received correspondence from the Casino Association acknowledging the legitimacy of concerns expressed by members about the practice of bussing pensioners to casinos and also acknowledging that separate entrances should be provided at existing operations for access to family entertainment activities. These are matters which the Bill provides to be dealt with by way of regulation, but I would urge the Casino Association not to wait for the regulations before implementing reforms that they themselves have acknowledged are warranted.

A provision I would finally briefly like to mention is section 53. This places an obligation on provincial licensing authorities, who will be responsible for issuing gambling licenses, to consider the potential socioeconomic impact on communities of any proposed license. Licensees will also be required to demonstrate their commitment to combating addictive and compulsive gambling and to promoting black economic empowerment.

The Bill before us offers an improved legal and regulatory framework for regulation of the gambling industry. The gambling industry in this country must, in my view, find its place as a relatively minor part of the broader leisure and entertainment complex. We must not be seduced into thinking that gambling is some magical fast track to enrichment. It is certainly not that for punters. One of the provisions of this Bill is for regulatory authorities to provide public education, which hopefully will include promoting a better understanding of odds which will enable people to know that the only consistent winner is the operator of gambling machines and not the punters who, as a whole, have to be consistent losers if the industry is to be profitable.

Gambling is equally neither a golden fast track to enrichment either by currently or still-to-be empowered entrepreneurs. Black economic empowerment must be promoted in this industry as in all other and, as the Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Bill passed by this Parliament provides, regulated industries, of which this is one, must be of particular focus in efforts to promote black economic empowerment.

We must be wary of claims that by loosening regulatory reigns on the gambling industry we can create a fast track to black economic empowerment. This is a self-serving and also a false and misleading claim. The research I have already referred to indicates that South Africa already has a high incidence of gambling. There are serious doubts about the sustainability of some of the existing operations. There is certainly not some new bonanza around the corner and definitely not one that can be found by preying on the poor and vulnerable.

The gambling industry must be socially responsible if it is to be sustainable. This Bill will provide an improved regulatory framework for the gambling industry in South Africa. I therefore have pleasure in commending it to the House. [Applause.]

Mr C M LOWE: Mr Chairman, the view over Durban from high up in Berea is spectacular: a sweeping panorama stretching from Umhlanga in the distance north to the airport and the refineries in the south. Before you lies the Greyville Racecourse, the city centre, harbour and the beach front, all set against the green vegetation of the majestic Bluff with its recently completed futuristic tower. By day the view can literally take your breath away.

At night it changes dramatically with neon and spotlights vying to outdo each other; with streams of light and vivid colours against the black sky. And no lights are brighter, more spectacular, more garish perhaps, than those that pulse from a new addition to the new Durban skyline: a pseudo art deco palace of promise; a place where fortunes can be made and dreams realised by the throw of a dice, the turn of a wheel, the pull of a lever.

The Sun Coast Casino and entertainment world is, by its own admission, the hottest spot in town, with 30 other similar casino complexes across South Africa. It is a beacon to hopeful fun-seekers who flock to its doors, just as it is a magnet to the hopeless who come in for a desperate last shot at redemption. It is a place of bright lights and dark shadows.

Legislating the gambling industry has always been fraught with controversy. Is it a social evil that we cannot afford or just a relatively harmless form of entertainment? How do we measure opportunities for economic empowerment, the jobs created and the tax revenues against the hardship and misery it can also bring about? It is neither possible nor feasible to prohibit and criminalise gambling. To do so only begs an illegal response.

If anything, apartheid taught us all that the more you legislate against things, and the more you restrict freedom of choice, the more what you are trying to suppress will go underground and manifest itself elsewhere. Gambling should be clearly and specifically regulated to minimise its potentially harmful effect on society. Where sensibly and pragmatically regulated, it provides new jobs, legitimate incomes and substantial revenue streams for the fiscus, all of which allow Government to improve the lives of those communities who need it most.

This Bill strikes that balance. It targets many of the socioeconomic consequences of gambling by restricting casinos in the granting of credit, access to cash and advertising endorsements. It creates a scheme of self- exclusion and court-ordered self-exclusion for prohibited gamblers and sets black economic empowerment and socioeconomic criteria in most areas of the industry. It does so sensibly, for instance by amending section 13, recognising the potential impact that credit extension for gambling may have on the poor, but correctly directing this to a consumer credit law; and retaining section 15, which restricts the advertising of free services and free gambling.

A key issue is in section 26, namely the roll-out of limited payout machines. Despite vehement arguments from some of his ANC colleagues, the Minister has bravely and correctly stuck to his regulative rather than prohibitive approach. Reducing the maximum number of machines, phasing them in over a trial period with a full socioeconomic assessment at the end of each phase, with local community involvement, and strictly proscribing the locations of all site operators is both in the public interest and sensible.

What is not are the calls for the wholesale ban on LPMs and the claims that they will only create more gambling debt and greater misery. No matter how deeply these members care about their constituents - and they do care deeply - that stance is hypocritical and unfair to a small sector of the industry. With 31 casinos booming, a thriving horse-racing industry and lotto queues stretched on every street corner twice a week, that argument is way too late. The horse has long since left the stable.

Again it is to the Minister’s credit that he has rejected these pressures in favour of a more pragmatic approach. A strong case has been made for multiple provincial monitoring systems linked to a national network, rather than a single centralised system as provided for in section 27 of the Bill, not least of all because of valid criticism of the current operator, Zankey monitoring systems. There is merit in provinces running their own systems, but while the Bill does insist on a national system, nothing prevents provinces running their own concurrent systems if they wish so. In conclusion, fighting a corner for the gambling industry is never easy and in a country like South Africa it is sometimes impossible. The moral high ground lies elsewhere, but outlawing it is foolish and being overly prescriptive will simply drive it underground. This Bill is a pragmatic attempt to limit the potentially negative socioeconomic consequences of gambling, while allowing the broad mass of South Africans, those of us who are not disposed towards gambling ourselves into debt or taking on more credit that we can handle, to go out and have some legitimate fun, if we so wish. It still allows for practical, concurrent jurisdiction with the provinces and, most of all, it keeps the bright lights shining; bright enough to keep the dark shadows at bay. The DA supports this Bill. [Applause.]

Dr U ROOPNARAIN: Chairperson, members of this House, gambling is a widespread human pursuit. Many fortunes of families and principalities have depended on the turn of a card and the roll of a dice. This gambling Bill replaces the Gambling Act. The IFP opposes the National Gambling Bill because it is a blatant subversion of the balance between provincial and national powers, as expressed in the Constitution.

In terms of the Constitution, gambling, with the exception of the national lottery and sports pool, is a provincial competence. Attempts by the Government to yield total uniformity is contrary to the Constitution. Clauses 21, 26 and 30 clearly annotates the function of the provinces. Also, clause 17 bans ATMs from premises where gambling takes place. This means that there would be no ATMs throughout a resort like Sun City. Rather, the IFP would agree that ATMs should not be on the casino gambling floor.

The Bill ignores the fact that in terms of the Constitution provinces and the national Government have exactly the same measures or scope of legislative powers on these matters. Moreover, the national Government can only legislate where provinces have not legislated or where their legislation falls under one of the overrides, as set out in section 146 of the Constitution. This Bill ignores the existence of provincial legislation in the field and purports to override such legislation, even beyond what it is allowed to do in terms of section 146. For example, KwaZulu-Natal has provided a framework for a credible, profitable and legal gambling industry. This Bill pretends to be a national override in its entirety and effectively dispossesses the provinces of their powers. One cannot negate the work done by the provinces. The proof of this statement is in the fact that the Bill itself purports to provide what provinces can or cannot do and what they can and cannot legislate in gambling matters, which makes the entire grant of legislative powers made and expressed in the Constitution superfluous and semantic. The structure of this Bill would be appropriate if national legislation were to grant legislative powers to provinces in matters which they have none.

This Bill makes a mockery of the Constitution, especially in matters where the provinces have a plenary legislative power. Also the Bill, once it is enacted, will have serious impact on the rights of existing licences, where these rights constitute property. While the attempt in this Bill is to deal with the moral corrosiveness of gambling, gambling is undeniably important to the provinces, especially for revenue, growth, job creation and tourism promotion. Yet, with such outlandish clauses, this Bill will remain unimplementable. The IFP does not believe in the usurping of provincial powers, hence we cannot support this Bill. I thank you.

Dr R T RHODA: Chairman, notions of good and evil have never shown themselves to be unalterable.

They change with place, they shift with race … Each Vice has worn a Virtue’s crown; all Good was banned as Sin or Crime.

Gambling has existed in every known society, from the most primitive to the most complex. Psychologists believe that the real attraction of gambling lies in the thrills and the tensions of uncertainty, the daring involved in taking chances, the chance of testing one’s skill or luck, the satisfaction of beating an opponent and the dreams of sudden good fortune. Gambling remains popular even though most societies have disapproved of it and have made laws to forbid or restrict it.

Gambling and legislation to regulate it will always be controversial. To some, a social evil; to others, a harmless form of entertainment. Proponents and opponents of legalised gambling each have their points of view. It is simply not possible or feasible to prohibit or criminalise it, but like liquor, it is potentially dangerous and can destroy the social fabric of a country if not properly controlled.

Under the old South African government gambling was prohibited on the grounds that it was immoral and that government had the right to impose the moral values of its supporters and all others. However, this prohibition was eroded in part by the development of casinos in the so-called homelands. But far more drastically, it was eroded by the proliferation of illegal casinos all over South Africa. The illegal casinos were unlicensed, uncontrolled and easily accessible as they sprung up wherever there was a market, especially for machine gambling.

The New NP’s main concern and the responsibility of the Government is focused around the introduction of safeguarding measures to combat the incidence of problem gambling and to use everything in our power to limit the potentially negative socioeconomic effects of this industry. To this end several measures, limitations and restrictions have been included in the Bill.

I would like to conclude by complimenting the Minister, the director- general, his deputy, the members of the portfolio committee and other stakeholders for the final product.

The New NP supports the Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms C DUDLEY: Chairman, hon Minister, the horse certainly has bolted and now we want to close the stable door. As Mr Skweyiya’s budget for social development tragically evaporates in the aftermath of gambling policies and legislation in South Africa, we have the ANC, the DA, the New NP and others in this House to thank.

Their irresponsible behaviour in voting for the National Gambling Bill in 1996 can be likened to knowingly lighting a devastating fire and fanning it with consequent legislation. Now we see these same people trying to manage the fire and shamelessly looking for credit for doing so.

The ACDP does not support legislation that condones and promotes gambling and strongly objected to the National Gambling Act in 1996, which was supported by the ANC, the DA and the New NP.

Exploitation of the poor is unacceptable under any name and the lottery and casinos are no exception. Gambling is unprofitable for all but a few and cannot be defended in terms of benefiting the economy. The revenue-raising ability for provinces and black economic empowerment were used as carrots to con the public, but the reality is: Poverty has increased; organisations working to alleviate suffering receive little or no assistance; the promised tax take is relatively poor; social costs are astronomical; and regulatory costs are exorbitant. For example, the direct cost of the administration of the industry is over R200 million per annum.

Limited payout machines are another disgrace, being conveniently placed where alcohol is consumed, ensuring a target market with alcohol-induced, reduced responsibility. The gambling industry exploits people’s weaknesses and undermines efforts toward moral regeneration. This new culture promotes greed and instant gratification and undermines the need to study, family life, delayed consumption and frugality. Gambling is a direct attack on the family and fosters prostitution, money-laundering, gangsterism, drugs and liquor - all industries which impact negatively on the spread of HIV/Aids and on law and order.

The detrimental social and economic effects of gambling were well documented and pointed out by the ACDP in 1996 and on many other occasions. Surely this sort of irresponsible behaviour should not be condoned. Will the ANC, DA and New NP pay for their folly or will this too be only at the expense of the poor and the taxpaying South Africans?

The repealing of the 1996 Gambling Act is long overdue. This Bill does not go far enough and will not remove the blight of gambling and its devastating effects on our nation. One cannot help but wonder what gambling industry insiders will be paying into political party election coffers. The ACDP is voting against this smokescreen referred to as a Bill. I thank you.

Miss S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Chairperson.

An HON MEMBER: Malibongwe! [Praise!]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Igama lamakhosikazi! [The name of the women!]

Compulsive and addictive gambling has become a major social issue in our society. The MF strongly supports the provision introduced in this Bill to nationally and provincially regulate casinos, racing, gambling and wagering.

The MF is especially supportive of the introduction of prohibitions, requirements and standards to reduce the harmful social consequences of compulsive and addictive gambling. We have seen many who gamble for entertainment, desperation and luck being drawn into the web of gambling. No objection to the act of gambling is expressed, as the MF knows that this has the benefit of drawing in foreign capital. However, concern is expressed.

Further support is given to the control of payout gambling machines that is provided for. It is felt that the interim relationship between provincial regulatory agencies and the National Gambling Board would greatly assist regulations and effective management.

The MF supports the provisions in this Bill and the National Gambling Board. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Ms T E MILLIN: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Chairperson and hon members, compulsive gambling and the devastating effects of such an addiction on the poorer sector of society have necessitated this new Bill.

Sensible opinion will contend that, had we not legalised gambling, we would not belatedly have to remedy the mess we’re in now. Since gambling was legalised, South Africa has become one of the world’s leading gambling nations, as referred to earlier - not something to be proud of. A national gambling survey has found that of all South Africans gambling in casinos 22% are unemployed, and that of all Lotto players 27% are unemployed - all people with no disposable income to waste.

A gambling authority from Salford University in the UK and secretary to the Executive Directorate of the SA National Gambling Programme has cautioned that the Government’s proposed measures ``may not be the best way to address the problem of excessive gambling’’. Taking into account all the problems, any alleviating measures are a step in the right direction.

Nevertheless the AIM opposes the Bill on principle. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mrs B M NTULI: Chairperson, as we celebrate the first decade of freedom, the struggle to eradicate poverty and underdevelopment remains fundamental to achieving a better life for all.

We have introduced a number of new pieces of legislation, policies and other methods that have systematically broken down the legacy of apartheid. We have engaged in a vigorous process of transformation that has created opportunities for our people to participate meaningfully in the economy of this country. We have moved away from policy formulation to policy implementation. Considerable progress has been made in transforming the state machinery by putting more accountable mechanisms in place to help remove all forms of inequality, racism and sexism and to address the other social and economic effects of apartheid.

During the past 10 years, we as Government have played a pioneering role in striving towards sustainable development and overall poverty alleviation. We have left no stone unturned in helping to contribute to economic growth that can fight poverty and unemployment and create job opportunities in order to improve the lives of our people. We have encouraged the development of small, medium and microenterprises, especially black-owned companies, to give effect to the clause in the Freedom Charter that says that the people shall share in the country’s wealth.

However, gambling is not one of them. The social cost of this industry is too much to bear. People’s lives can be destroyed, and I doubt whether our country can afford this. It is for this reason that the objectives of this Bill are to clarify and facilitate the exercise of concurrent jurisdiction and to limit the potentially negative socioeconomic consequences of gambling.

As a member of this Parliament, I am concerned about the impact of gambling on the social welfare of our families. A domestic worker, for instance, earning R600 per month could gamble away most of that money while the children or elderly in her care suffer.

Our socioecononomic impact assessment study on gambling found, for example in the Northern Cape, that problems experienced included pensioners who gamble with what little money they have, illegal casinos and numerous complaints from welfare organisations.

The socioeconomic consequences are worsened by the fact that illegal gambling has become very sophisticated. Gamblers no longer use cash, but instead are using cards on which cash is loaded, making illegal gambling difficult to prove.

With our country’s high unemployment rate of 29%, many people believe that gambling is their salvation. The average gambler in South Africa is 30 years to 50 years old, earns less than R2 500 per month and spends on average 10% of his or her income to win just R50. One in every seven borrows money to gamble, whilst one in every four gambles with money normally used for household purposes.

The impact on the poor and marginalised communities is devastating. Desperate gamblers believe that they can change their lives through luck, rather than trying to find a solution to their problems. This tendency is not confined to poor people alone. Even people with higher incomes and substantial disposable incomes are seriously being challenged by the negative consequences of their bad financial management.

Our churches believe that gambling is morally and ethically problematic, and they are concerned about the burgeoning gambling industry. It is our duty to constantly investigate and ensure that proper means are found to restrict, monitor and control gambling, especially limited payout machines, in order to ensure that the poor do not become the target market of unscrupulous behaviour.

As one of my colleagues said, it is clear that the aim of LPMs is not recreational but to suck the last drop of blood out of our communities, especially out of the breadwinners. It is a pity we could not convince our hon Minister to withdraw the provision for LPMs. We, however, respect his view that prohibition is not the best path and that a renewed effort is under way to provide for more effective legislation to regulate this industry. We therefore welcome the assurance by the department not to increase the number of casinos above the current maximum of 40 or the number of LPMs above an envisaged maximum of 50 000.

I understand that there are specific difficulties relating to gambling on the Internet, but I am confident that the new provision in the Bill can assist in confiscating the material gains of illegal gambling operations. In addition, it can also assist us with new envisaged Internet gambling legislation that will be developed in the near future.

There is no doubt in my mind that we, as Government, have made a positive impact on the lives of our people over the past decade. The broader social and environmental conditions and participation have changed for the better. However, we must look seriously at the impact of gambling on the poorest of the poor. We should rather aim to promote the spirit of Batho Pele and help to mend and reinforce the social fabric of our society by constantly improving service delivery.

A recent study, the Economic Impact of Legalised Gambling in South Africa, revealed that our country is currently portrayed as having a very vibrant gambling sector, which makes it one of the leading gambling nations in the world. South Africa is rated 14th in gross gambling turnover, 23rd with regard to gross gambling yields, and 8th in terms of gross casino yields.

The study also shows that the highest growth is taking place in the provinces that were previously excluded from such activities. This has been achieved in the short space of not more than five years. The high level of acceptability of gambling among the South African population and the relatively high propensity for gambling is three times as much as that of the USA and twice as much as that of New Zealand.

On the positive side, the study shows that this sector’s contribution to the GDP was more than R3 billion in 2000, and its contribution in terms of employment is an additional 215 jobs for every 100 jobs created. This sector can, if properly regulated, contribute towards realising the national development objectives.

In order to find a solution to the regulations of the gamblig sector, we consulted with different role-players in the industry and engaged in public hearings during July this year. I must add that the biggest bunch of interested people ever attended the public hearings in the Trade and Industry portfolio committee, bigger than I have seen in my term of office here in Parliament.

The Bill tabled before us today addresses three main issues. It provides for measures to combat addictive and problem gambling, for the need to limit gambling opportunities and LPMs in particular, and for the management of the horse-racing industry.

Regarding the first issue, we welcome the helpline for addictive and problem gamblers through professional institutions, counselling sessions for people addicted to gambling and for problem gamblers. We hope that these counsellors will be able to assist Government and help diminish both the social and economic impact of gambling on our people in a quick and comprehensive manner, as the existence of a large illegal industry and the broader social and economic impact of the industry are, as yet, unclear in South Africa.

In the absence of a national central monitoring mechanism that could create synergy in regulating the roll-out of slot machines in the provinces, we welcome the commitment given by our hon Minister and members from our provincial legislatures to promoting mechanisms that would give effect to co-operative governance.

We acknowledge that horse-racing is an industry that is dependent on gambling for its continued existence. It is not an ordinary sport, but a form of sport that used to be the only legal form of gambling. Therefore it had to be provided for separately, since policy formulation remains the domain of Government.

As the portfolio committee, we need to deal with strong moral issues. We have dealt with the loan sharks, liquor and now gambling. This sector is traumatic and some members have had personal experiences in this regard.

In my view there is a definite need for social responsibility programmes that go beyond the narrow focus on compulsive gamblers. We propose that the National Gambling Policy Council be mandated to monitor the effects of gambling on different socioeconomic groups. We also want to assess the impact of social responsibility in the industry and encourage community consultation.

There is much evidence of distress in communities, and our main concern is to fight for the public’s interests. We fear the danger of encouraging a culture of gambling overstimulation. As parliamentarians, we must regulate undesirable conduct through regulations that alter social behaviour. We must not be swayed by powerful economic interests, or by opportunistic businessmen making special pleadings. We need education that supplements good law. By that, we mean that we either put strong curbs on casinos or totally ban LPMs. Since this is not possible, we need to regulate this industry through the implementation of an effective monitoring mechanism.

I want to conclude by saying that our Government should continue to ensure that gambling does not adversely affect the lives of the citizens of South Africa. We, as parliamentarians, should remain steadfast in our quest to create a better life for all. We must, through the implementation of effective legislation, ensure that the gambling industry does not, in striving for profit, bring with it suffering and false hope for our people.

The ANC supports this Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Thank you, Chairperson. As I’ve indicated, there are strong views on gambling. But I think that what we’ve found is that there’s a broad middle ground which chooses to deal with this matter in a pragmatic manner, and I’m pleased that the major parties, with some exceptions that I’ll come to, have adopted this approach. I think the only feasible and viable approach is that of trying to regulate this industry and strike the necessary balance between the contending views on it.

If I could briefly touch on some of the views raised by those parties dissenting and also those supporting. I’ve been, for some time, perplexed at the IFP’s position on this matter. There’s been no attempt whatsoever to override provincial powers, and no matter how much polemic you want to put across, this is clearly not the intention of the Bill. What puzzles me is, while we are moving to make sure quite clearly that we have a national ability to regulate, without taking away any power from the provinces, why should that be opposed?

If you look closely at the Bill, the areas that we’re choosing to tighten up on are precisely where no single province can keep control of the industry. So, in terms of co-operative governance, the nine provinces are working with the national Ministry to ensure that, overall, we regulate this industry. I can’t for the life of me see why this should be opposed. Certain factual errors were also made about LPMs, etc, etc.

I would appeal to the IFP that there’s no sense in doing this. We’ve gone out of our way - and this is why it’s taken us so long and why we’re running to the wire even now - to make sure that the provinces are involved and have had a chance to look at this, and we are not by any stretch of the imagination taking away powers from the provinces. But I can’t believe that the IFP would be supportive of the idea that the gambling industry is not regulated, that we don’t have common norms and standards across all provinces. I really am quite surprised at this and very disappointed that a major party can take a position of this type.

I’ve always known that for the ACDP and the hon Dudley this was an act of faith. Now as Government we can’t operate just on acts of faith. We’ve consistently said that if you don’t regulate this industry and you try and suppress it, you are creating criminality where it’s not necessary to create criminality. One must then do what we’ve done, which is to bring this into the ambit of reasonable people, protect people against abuse and protect those who can’t protect themselves. This is the approach we’ve taken and we must continue with this approach.

It’s also been contended by the hon Millin that we’ve suddenly had a massive explosion of gambling. Well, the truth is, we don’t know what happened before. At least under the regulated formulation that we have now, we’ve got a better idea of what’s happening, and we’ve got a much more public and a much more open and a much more transparent attempt to deal with problem gambling. But where you had illegal gambling, you couldn’t do that, and you can’t do it. Therefore, it’s not clear to me what principle we’re upholding when we vote against something such as this.

Let me just say to the industry - and it’s a point I’ve made to them on many occasions - their future depends on their conduct. The industry will have to conduct itself in an extremely responsible manner, because anybody who’s sat through these hearings will realise - many speakers have made this point, inter alia, the hon Lowe - that there are many, many people across all parties who don’t believe gambling should be allowed. Therefore, if we’re going to follow a pragmatic approach, which is in the best interests of the people who are affected by this, the industry will have to conduct itself at the highest standard of ethics. And again, this can only be done if we set exactly the same standard of ethics in every province of this country. We can’t possibly have differential standards of ethics or differential control, and that doesn’t take away provincial power; it just enhances South Africa’s ability to regulate this industry. Thank you very much for those who supported. I believe they were wise. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time (African Christian Democratic Party, Inkatha Freedom Party and African Independent Movement dissenting).

                PENSIONS SECOND (SUPPLEMENTARY) BILL

                       (First Reading debate)

There was no debate.

Bill read a first time.

                PENSIONS SECOND (SUPPLEMENTARY) BILL
                       (Second Reading debate)

There was no debate.

Bill read a second time.

The House adjourned at 19:36. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                      MONDAY, 29 SEPTEMBER 2003

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism:

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 26 September 2003 in  terms
     of Joint Rule 160(2), classified the following Bill  as  a  section
     74 Bill:


     (i)     Constitution of the  Republic  of  South  Africa  Amendment
          Bill [B 60 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 74).


 (2)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 26 September 2003 in  terms
     of Joint Rule 161, classified the following Bill as a money Bill:


     (i)      Pensions  Second  (Supplementary)  Bill  [B  59  -   2003]
          (National Assembly - sec 77).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson: Report and Financial Statements of the Municipal Demarcation Board for 2002-2003, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 166-2003].

2. The Minister of Home Affairs:

 The Employment Equity Report of the  Department  of  Home  Affairs  for
 2002, tabled in terms of section 22 of the Employment Equity Act,  1998
 (Act No 55 of 1998).

1. The Minister of Transport:

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements  of  Vote  32  -  Department  of
     Transport for 2002-2003,  including  the  Report  of  the  Auditor-
     General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 167-2003].


 (b)    Report and Financial Statements of the  Airports  Company  South
     Africa  Limited  for  2002-2003,  including  the  Report   of   the
     Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.

1. The Minister of Public Enterprises:

 Report and Financial Statements of arivia.kom for 2002-2003,  including
 the Report of the Independent Auditors for 2002-2003.

1. The Minister of Public Works:

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of Vote 6 - Department of Public
     Works for 2002-2003, including the Report  of  the  Auditor-General
     on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 189-2003].


 (b)    Report and Financial Statements  of  the  Construction  Industry
     Development Board  for  2002-2003,  including  the  Report  of  the
     Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.

                     TUESDAY, 30 SEPTEMBER 2003 TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of the Office  of  the  Auditor-
     General for 2002-2003, including  the  Report  of  the  Independent
     Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 63-2003].


 (b)    Report of the Public Service Commission on Financial  Misconduct
     [RP 108-2003].

1. The Minister of Finance:

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of  the  Financial  Intelligence
     Centre for 2002-2003, including the Report of  the  Auditor-General
     on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 187-2003].


 (b)    Report and Financial Statements of Vote 13  -  Statistics  South
     Africa for 2002-2003, including the Report of  the  Auditor-General
     on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 190-2003].

1. The Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

 (a)    Report and Financial  Statements  of  Vote  5  -  Department  of
     Provincial  and  Local  Government  for  2002-2003,  including  the
     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-
     2003 [RP 181-2003].


 (b)    Report and Financial Statements of the Municipal  Infrastructure
     Investment Unit for 2002-2003, including the Report of the Auditor-
     General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003. 4.    The Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology:


 Report and Financial Statements of the South African  Library  for  the
 Blind for 2002-2003, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
 Financial Statements for 2002-2003.

1. The Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

 Report and Financial Statements of  Vote  10  -  Department  of  Public
 Service and Administration for 2002-2003, including the Report  of  the
 Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.

1. The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs:

 Report and Financial Statements of Vote 25 - Department of  Agriculture
 for 2002-2003, including the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
 Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 180-2003]. 7.    The Minister of Minerals and Energy:


 Report and Financial Statements of the Mine Health and  Safety  Council
 for 2002-2003, including the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
 Financial Statements for 2002-2003.

1. The Minister for Safety and Security:

 Report and Financial Statements of the Secret Services Account  of  the
 South African Police Service (SAPS) for 2002-2003, including the Report
 of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements  for  2002-2003  [RP
 129-2003].

                       MONDAY, 6 OCTOBER 2003

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism: (1) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 6 October 2003 in terms of Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bill as a section 75 Bill:

   (i) Films and Publications Amendment Bill [B 61 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75).

 (2)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 6 October 2003 in terms  of
     Joint Rule 160(4), classified the following  Bills  as  section  76
     Bills:


     (i)     National Environmental Management: Air Quality Bill  [B  62
             - 2003] (National Council of Provinces- sec 76).


     (ii)    Dental Technicians Amendment Bill [B 63 -  2003]  (National
             Assembly - sec 76).

1. Translations of Bills submitted: (1) The Minister of Home Affairs:

   (i) Wysigingswetsontwerp op Suid-Afrikaanse Burgerskap [W 55 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75).

   This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the South African Citizenship Amendment Bill [B 55 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Finance:

 (a)    Government Notice No 1250 published  in  Government  Gazette  No
     25413 dated 29 August 2003:  Statement  of  the  national  revenue,
     expenditure and borrowing as at  31  July  2003  in  terms  of  the
     Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).


 (b)    Government Notice No 1261 published  in  Government  Gazette  No
     25426 dated  12  September  2003:  Publication  of  rate:  Overberg
     District Municipality, in terms of the Regional  Services  Councils
     Act, 1985 (Act No 109 of 1985).

1. The Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

 Report of the National House of Traditional Leaders for 2002-2003.

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry:

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of Ntsika  Enterprise  Promotion
     Agency for 2002-2003, including the Report of  the  Auditor-General
     on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 140-2003].


 (b)    Report and Financial Statements of  the  South  African  Quality
     Institute for 2002-2003, including the Report  of  the  Independent
     Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.


 (c)    Report and Financial Statements of the Competition Tribunal  for
     2002-2003, including the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
     Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 118-2003].

1. The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs:

 Report and Financial Statements of the Ingonyama Trust Board for  2002-
 2003, including the Report of  the  Auditor-General  on  the  Financial
 Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 161-2003].

1. The Minister of Minerals and Energy:

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of  SFF  Association  for  2002-
     2003, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the  Financial
     Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 155-2003].


 (b)    Report and  Group  Financial  Statements  of  CEF  (Proprietary)
     Limited for 2002-2003, including the Report of the  Auditor-General
     on the Goup Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 163-2003].

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 Letter dated 30 September 2003 from the  Minister  of  Finance  to  the
 Speaker, tabled in terms of section  65(2)(a)  of  the  Public  Finance
 Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999), explaining the  delay  in  the
 tabling of the Annual Report and  Financial  Statements  of  the  South
 African Revenue Services for 2002-2003:


     Dear Madam Speaker


     TABLING OF SARS' ANNUAL REPORT AND FINANCIAL STATEMENTS


     In terms of section 65(1) of the  Public  Finance  Management  Act,
     1999, I as the  Executive  Authority  responsible  for  SARS,  must
     table SARS' annual report and financial statements in the  National
     Assembly within six months after the end  of  the  SARS'  financial
     year, which ended on 31 March 2003. The last date  for  tabling  in
     the National Assembly was, therefore, 30 September 2003.


     The management of SARS and the office of  the  Auditor-General  are
     still involved in intensive discussion on various complex  matters.
     It was not possible to conclude these discussions and  interactions
     within the required time limit.


     In view of the above discussions it was not possible  for  SARS  to
     finalise its annual report and  accompanying  financial  statements
     timeously to enable me to table the relevant documents  within  the
     required six month period in the National Assembly.
     The purpose of this letter is, therefore,  to  inform  you  that  I
     will not be able to table the annual report and  statements  within
     the required six month period and to table  a  written  explanation
     in terms of section 65(2) of the  Public  Finance  Management  Act,
     1999, setting out the reasons for  the  delay.  In  this  regard  I
     submit the aforementioned written explanation.


     I  will  happily  discuss  some  of   these   concerns   with   you
     telephonically.


     I leave this matter in your capable hands.


     Yours sincerely




     TREVOR A MANUEL, MP
     MINISTER OF FINANCE
                      WEDNESDAY, 8 OCTOBER 2003

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Assent by President in respect of Bills:

 (i)    National Road Traffic Amendment Bill [B 31B - 2003] - Act No  20
       of 2003 (assented to and signed by President on 1 October 2003);


 (ii)   Special Pensions Amendment Bill [B 35B - 2002] - Act  No  21  of
       2003 (assented to and signed by President on 1 October 2003);


 (iii)  Public Protector Amendment Bill [B 6D - 2003] -  Act  No  22  of
       2003 (assented to and signed by President on  1  October  2003);
       and


 (iv)   Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Amendment Bill [B
       34B - 2003] - Act No 23 of  2003  (assented  to  and  signed  by
       President on 1 October 2003).

1. Introduction of Bills:

 (1)    The Minister of Transport:


     (i)     Road Accident Fund Amendment Bill [B 64 -  2003]  (National
          Assembly - sec 75) [Explanatory  summary  of  Bill  and  prior
          notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette  No
          25540 of 3 October 2003.]


     Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee  on  Transport
     of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint  Tagging
     Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule  160,  on
     8 October 2003.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the  classification  of
     the Bills may be submitted to the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism  (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on the Pensions Second (Supplementary) Bill [B 59 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 77), dated 25 September 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Pensions Second (Supplementary) Bill [B 59 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 77), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a Money Bill, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

CREDA INSERT - insert ATC1008e THURSDAY, 9 OCTOBER 2003

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Reprint of Bill:

 (1)     After  the  Portfolio  Committee  on  Trade  and  Industry  had
     considered the subject of the National Gambling Bill [B 48 -  2003]
     (National Assembly - sec 76), referred to it on 20 August 2003,  it
     reported  the  Bill  with  amendments  ("[B  48A  -  2003]")   (see
     Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 25 September  2003).
     The amended Bill ("[B 48B - 2003]"),  printed  to  incorporate  the
     amendments contained in [B 48A - 2003], had to be  reprinted  owing
     to administrative errors. The amended Bill that will appear  as  an
     Order of the Day on the Order Paper of the  National  Assembly  for
     Second  Reading  debate  will  therefore  be   entitled   "National
     Gambling Bill [B 48B - 2003 (Reprint)]".

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Finance:

 (a)    Report of the Registrar of Short-Term Insurance for 2001.


 (b)    Report of the Registrar of Long-Term Insurance for 2001.


 (c)    Accession to the Convention  on  Temporary  Admission:  Istanbul
     Convention, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the  Constitution,
     1996.


 (d)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Accession  to  the  Convention  on
     Temporary Admission: Istanbul Convention.

1. The Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology:

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of the War Museum  of  the  Boer
     Republic for  2002-2003,  including  the  Report  of  the  Auditor-
     General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.


 (b)     Southern  African  Development  Community  (SADC)  Protocol  on
     Culture, Information and Sport, tabled in terms of  section  231(2)
     of the Constitution, 1996.


 (c)    Explanatory  Memorandum  to  the  Southern  African  Development
     Community (SADC) Protocol on Culture, Information and Sport.

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker: Letter dated 23 September 2003, from the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development tabled in terms of section 65(2)(a) of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999), explaining the delay in the tabling of the Annual Report and Financial Statements of the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development for 2002-2003:

   Dear Madam Speaker,

   DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: LATE TABLING OF ANNUAL REPORT 2002/03

   The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development is required in terms of section 65 of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999), to table in the National Assembly its annual report and financial statements and the audit report on those statements within six months after the financial year end. The Department is not in a position to table its annual report in Parliament before the end of this week, but will be in a position to do so during October 2003. The following has brought about this unfortunate state of affairs:

   1. It must be accepted that the preparation of an annual report for a department of the size of Justice and Constitutional Development is a complex and time-consuming process. Various entities and institutions such as the Legal Aid Board and the South African Human Rights Commission form part of the Department’s portfolio. Most of these entities and institutions prepare and table their own annual reports. Even the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA), one of the core programmes of the Department, reports separately. This makes the co-ordination and compilation of a consolidated annual report difficult.

   2. The Department experienced difficulty in adapting to the new format for annual reporting. As you know, the Department received a very negative report on our last annual report by the DPSA. The concerns of the DPSA are being addressed in the current preparation process.

   3. The Auditor-General has not signed off on all financials. This delay was caused partly by ongoing discussions between the Auditor-General’s office and the Office of the CFO on the audit qualification and a request to write-off monies in the suspense account.

   4. In addition, network failures caused by a virus resulted in loss of critical information and data. Some of this information was available only in electronic format and had to be reconstructed. This frustrated attempts to finalise the annual report on time. Steps are being taken to prevent a recurrence of this problem and I have instructed the Director-General to take all necessary steps to ensure that the Department’s annual report is ready for tabling in Parliament during October 2003.

   Best regards,

   DR P M MADUNA, MP MINISTER

                    MONDAY, 13 OCTOBER 2003
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Introduction of Bills:

 (1)    The Minister of Communications:
     (i)     Telecommunications Amendment Bill [B 65 -  2003]  (National
          Assembly - sec 75) [Explanatory  summary  of  Bill  and  prior
          notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette  No
          25508 of 26 September 2003.]


     Introduction  and  referral   to   the   Portfolio   Committee   on
     Communications of the National Assembly, as  well  as  referral  to
     the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification  in  terms  of
     Joint Rule 160, on 14 October 2003.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the  classification  of
     the Bills may be submitted to the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism  (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

1. Translations of Bills submitted:

 (1)    The Minister of Home Affairs:


     (i)      Wetsontwerp  op  Verandering  van   Geslagsbeskrywing   en
          Geslagstatus [W 37 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75).


     This is the official translation into Afrikaans of  the  Alteration
     of Sex Description and Sex Status Bill  [B  37  -  2003]  (National
     Assembly - sec 75).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Foreign Affairs:

 Report and Financial Statements of  Vote  3  -  Department  of  Foreign
 Affairs for 2002-2003, including the Report of the  Auditor-General  on
 the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 193-2003].

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry:

 Report and Financial Statements of the Support Program  for  Industrial
 Innovation for 2002-2003,  including  the  Report  of  the  Independent
 Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 Letter dated 9 October 2003 from the Minister of Foreign Affairs to the
 Speaker of the National Assembly, in terms of section 65(2)(a)  of  the
 Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999), explaining  the
 delay in the tabling of the Annual Report and Financial  Statements  of
 the Department of Foreign Affairs for 2002-2003:


 Dear Madam Speaker


 TABLING OF ANNUAL REPORT 2002/03 OF THE DEPARTMENT OF  FOREIGN  AFFAIRS
 BY DR NC DLAMINI ZUMA, MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS


 In terms of section 65(1) of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999, I
 as the Executive Authority for Department of  Foreign  Affairs,  should
 have tabled the Department's annual report and financial statements  in
 the National Assembly within six months after the end of the  financial
 year, 30 September 2003.
 The reason for the delay in the tabling is that the Department  had  to
 re-work the contents of the annual report to truly reflect the work  of
 the Department and government in general.


 This written explanation is submitted in terms of section 65(2) of  the
 Public Finance Management Act, 1999, setting out the  reasons  for  the
 delay.


 Please accept my sincere apology for this delay.


 Yours sincerely




 NKOSAZANA DLAMINI ZUMA
 MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS

                      TUESDAY, 14 OCTOBER 2003

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Minister of Education:

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements  of  Vote  15  -  Department  of
     Education for 2002-2003,  including  the  Report  of  the  Auditor-
     General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 112-2003].


 (b)    Government Notice No 1407 published  in  Government  Gazette  No
     25545 dated 6  October  2003:  National  policy  regarding  further
     education  and  training  programmes:  Approval  of  the   National
     Curriculum Statement Grades 10-12 (Grades) as national  policy,  in
     terms of the National Education Policy Act,  1996  (Act  No  27  of
     1996) and the South African Schools Act, 1996 (Act No 84 of 1996).


 (c)    Government Notice No 1348 published  in  Government  Gazette  No
     25501 dated 26 September 2003: Regulations: Level  descriptors  for
     levels 1 to 4 of the National Qualifications  Framework,  in  terms
     of the South African Qualifications Authority Act, 1995 (Act No  58
     of 1995).


 (d)    South African Export Statistics for Conventional Arms for  2000-
     2002.


    Copies of the statistics are available from the office of the Clerk
     of Papers.

National Assembly:

1 The Speaker: Letter dated 13 October 2003 from the Minister of Education to the Speaker of the National Assembly, in terms of section 65(2)(a) of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999), explaining the delay in the tabling of the Annual Report and Financial Statements of the Department of Education for 2002-2003:

 Dear Frene
 LATE TABLING OF THE ANNUAL REPORT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION


 I wish to apologise for not tabling the Annual Report of the Department
 of Education in time, as required in terms of section 65 of the  Public
 Finance Management Act (Act No 1 of 1999).


 I can confirm that all the requirements  were  met  concerning  timeous
 submission of the financial statements to the Auditor-General  and  the
 auditing of the  financial  records  and  statements  by  the  Auditor-
 General. Unfortunately, there were technical delays experienced by  the
 printers in obtaining the material that was needed  for  printing.  The
 report will be delivered to your offices on 14 October 2003.


 I trust that my sincere apology will be accepted.


 With my best wishes.
 Yours sincerely




 Professor Kader Asmal, MP
 Minister of Education

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

CREDA INSERT - Insert ATC1410e

                      THURSDAY, 16 OCTOBER 2003

ANNOUNCEMENTS: National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159:

 (1)    Communal Land Rights Bill, 2003, submitted by the  Minister  for
     Agriculture and Land Affairs on 15 October 2003.  Referred  to  the
     Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs and the  Select
     Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs.

1. Translations of Bills submitted:

 (1)    The Minister of Home Affairs:
     (i)     Wysigingswetsontwerp op Kieswette [W 54 -  2003]  (National
          Assembly - sec 75).


     This is the official translation into Afrikaans  of  the  Electoral
     Laws Amendment Bill [B 54 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75).


 (2)    The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs:


     (i)     Wetsontwerp  op  Ruimtelike  Data-infrastruktuur  [W  44  -
          2003] (National Assembly - sec 75).


     This is the official translation  into  Afrikaans  of  the  Spatial
     Data Infrastructure Bill [B 44 - 2003]  (National  Assembly  -  sec
     75).

National Assembly:

1. Referrals to committees of papers tabled:

 The following papers have been tabled  and  are  now  referred  to  the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Arts, Culture, Science and Technology. The Report of  the  Auditor-
     General on the Financial Statements is  referred  to  the  Standing
     Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the  National  Film  and
          Video Foundation for 2002-2003, including the  Report  of  the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003  [RP
          122-2003].


     (b)     Report  and  Financial  Statements  of  the  South  African
          Library for the Blind for 2002-2003, including the  Report  of
          the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.


     (c)     Report and Financial Statements of the War  Museum  of  the
          Boer Republic for  2002-2003,  including  the  Report  of  the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.


 (2)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Agriculture and Land Affairs. The Reports  of  the  Auditor-General
     and the  Independent  Auditors  on  the  Financial  Statements  are
     referred  to  the  Standing  Committee  on  Public   Accounts   for
     consideration and report:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of  the  Bala  Farms  (Pty)
          Ltd for 2002-2003, including the Report of the Auditor-General
          on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 76-2002].


     (b)      Report   and   Financial   Statements   of   Onderstepoort
          Biological  Products  Limited  for  2002-2003,  including  the
          Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements
          for 2002-2003.


     (c)      Report  and   Financial   Statements   of   the   National
          Agricultural Marketing Council for  2002-2003,  including  the
          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements  for
          2002-2003 [RP 6-2003].


     (d)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 25 - Department  of
          Agriculture for 2002-2003, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements  for  2002-2003  [RP  180-
          2003].


 (3)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Trade and Industry. The Reports  of  the  Auditor-General  and  the
     Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements  are  referred  to
     the Standing Committee on Public  Accounts  for  consideration  and
     report:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 31 - Department  of
          Trade and Industry for 2002-2003, including the Report of  the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003  [RP
          50-2003].


     (b)     Report and  Financial  Statements  of  the  Technology  and
          Human Resources for Industry Programme (THRIP) for  2002-2003,
          including the Report of the Auditor-General on  the  Financial
          Statements for 2002-2003.


     (c)     Report and Financial Statements of the  National  Lotteries
          Board for 2002-2003, including  the  Report  of  the  Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.


     (d)      Report  and   Financial   Statements   of   the   National
          Manufacturing Advisory Centres Trust  (NAMAC)  for  2002-2003,
          including the  Report  of  the  Independent  Auditors  on  the
          Financial Statements for 2002-2003.


     (e)     Report and Financial Statements of  the  National  Gambling
          Board for 2002-2003, including  the  Report  of  the  Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements  for  2002-2003  [RP  106-
          2003].


     (f)      Report  and  Financial  Statements  of   the   Competition
          Commission of South Africa for 2002-2003, including the Report
          of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements  for  2002-
          2003 [RP 101-2003].


 (4)    The following papers are referred to the Porfolio  Committee  on
     Trade and Industry:


     (a)     Report  and  Financial  Statements  of  the  Micro  Finance
          Regulatory Council (MFRC) for 2002.


     (b)     Annual Review  of  the  Competition  Commmission  of  South
          Africa for 2003.
 (5)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Health.  The  Reports  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the  Financial
     Statements  are  referred  to  the  Standing  Committee  on  Public
     Accounts for consideration and report:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements  of  the  Medical  Research
          Council of South Africa (MRC)  for  2002-2003,  including  the
          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements  for
          2002-2003 [RP 91-2002].


     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the Council for  Medical
          Schemes for 2002-2003, including the Report  of  the  Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements  for  2002-2003  [RP  105-
          2003].


 (6)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Safety  and  Security.  The  Reports  of  the  Auditor-General  are
     referred  to  the  Standing  Committee  on  Public   Accounts   for
     consideration and report:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 24 - Department  of
          Safety and Security for 2002-2003, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003  [RP
          186-2003].


     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote  22  -  Independent
          Complaints Directorate  (ICD)  for  2002-2003,  including  the
          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements  for
          2002-2003 [RP 125-2003].


     (c)     Report and Financial  Statements  of  the  Secret  Services
          Account of the South African Police Service (SAPS)  for  2002-
          2003, including the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
          Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 129-2003].


 (7)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Education and to the Portfolio Committee on Labour. The Reports  of
     the Auditor-General and the Independent Auditors on  the  Financial
     Statements  are  referred  to  the  Standing  Committee  on  Public
     Accounts for consideration and report:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements  of  the  Education  Labour
          Relations Council for 2002-2003, including the Report  of  the
          Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003
          [RP 185-2003].


     (b)     Report and Financial Statements  of  the  National  Student
          Financial Aid Scheme for 2002-2003, including  the  Report  of
          the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for  2002-2003
          [RP 162-2003].


 (8)    The following paper is referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Correctional  Services.  The  Report  of  the  Auditor-General   is
     referred  to  the  Standing  Committee  on  Public   Accounts   for
     consideration and report:


     Report  and  Financial  Statements  of  Vote  20  -  Department  of
     Correctional Services for 2002-2003, including the  Report  of  the
     Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP  170-
     2003].


 (9)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Finance for consideration and report:


     (a)      Accession  to   the   Protocol   of   Amendment   to   the
          International   Convention   on   the    Simplification    and
          Harmonization  of  Customs  Procedures,  tabled  in  terms  of
          section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


     (b)     Explanatory Memorandum on the Accession to the Protocol  of
          Amendment   to   the   International   Convention    on    the
          Simplification and Harmonization of Customs Procedures.


 (10)   The following paper is referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Justice and Constitutional Development. The Report of the  Auditor-
     General on the Financial Statements is  referred  to  the  Standing
     Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report:
     Report and Financial Statements of the Legal Aid  Board  for  2002-
     2003, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the  Financial
     Statements for 2002-2003.


 (11)   The following paper is referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Environmental Affairs and  Tourism.  The  Report  of  the  Auditor-
     General on the Financial Statements is  referred  to  the  Standing
     Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report:


     Report and Financial Statements of South African Tourism for  2002-
     2003, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the  Financial
     Statements for 2002-2003.


 (12)   The following paper is referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Minerals and Energy. The  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
     Financial Statements is  referred  to  the  Standing  Committee  on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report:
     Report and Financial Statements  of  the  Mine  Health  and  Safety
     Council for 2002-2003, including the Report of the  Auditor-General
     on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.


 (13)   The following paper is referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Minerals and Energy:


     Report and Financial Statements  of  the  Mine  Health  and  Safety
     Inspectorate for 2002-2003.


 (14)   The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Provincial and  Local  Government.  The  Reports  of  the  Auditor-
     General on the Financial Statements are referred  to  the  Standing
     Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report:


     (a)      Report  and  Financial   Statements   of   the   Municipal
          Demarcation Board for 2002-2003, including the Report  of  the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003  [RP
          166-2003].


     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 5 -  Department  of
          Provincial and Local Government for 2002-2003,  including  the
          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements  for
          2002-2003 [RP 181-2003].


     (c)      Report  and  Financial   Statements   of   the   Municipal
          Infrastructure Investment Unit for  2002-2003,  including  the
          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements  for
          2002-2003.


 (15)   The following paper is referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Home Affairs and to the Portfolio Committee on Labour:


     The Employment Equity Report of the Department of Home Affairs  for
     2002, tabled in terms of section 22 of the Employment  Equity  Act,
     1988 (Act No 55 of 1998).
 (16)   The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Transport. The Reports of the Auditor-General and  the  Independent
     Auditors on the Financial Statements are referred to  the  Standing
     Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 32 - Department  of
          Transport for 2002-2003, including the Report of the  Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements  for  2002-2003  [RP  167-
          2003].


     (b)     Report and Financial Statements  of  the  Airports  Company
          South Africa Limited for 2002-2003, including  the  Report  of
          the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2002-
          2003.


 (17)   The following paper is referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Public Enterprises. The Report of the Independent Auditors  on  the
     Financial Statements is  referred  to  the  Standing  Committee  on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report:


     Report  and  Financial  Statements  of  arivia.kom  for  2002-2003,
     including the Report of the Independent Auditors for 2002-2003.


 (18)   The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Public Works. The Reports of the Auditor-General on  the  Financial
     Statements  are  referred  to  the  Standing  Committee  on  Public
     Accounts for consideration and report:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 6 -  Department  of
          Public Works  for  2002-2003,  including  the  Report  of  the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003  [RP
          189-2003].


     (b)      Report  and  Financial  Statements  of  the   Construction
          Industry Development Board for 2002-2003, including the Report
          of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements  for  2002-
          2003.


 (19)   The following paper is referred to  the  Standing  Committee  on
     Public Accounts for consideration:


     Report and Financial Statements  of  the  Office  of  the  Auditor-
     General for 2002-2003, including  the  Report  of  the  Independent
     Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 63-2003].


 (20)   The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Public Service and  Administration.  The  Report  of  the  Auditor-
     General on the Financial Statements is  referred  to  the  Standing
     Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report :


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 10 - Department  of
          Public Service and Administration for 2002-2003, including the
          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements  for
          2002-2003.


     (b)     Report  of  the  Public  Service  Commission  on  Financial
          Misconduct [RP 108-2003].


 (21)   The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Finance. The  Reports  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the  Financial
     Statements  are  referred  to  the  Standing  Committee  on  Public
     Accounts for consideration and report:


     (a)      Report  and  Financial   Statements   of   the   Financial
          Intelligence Centre for 2002-2003, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003  [RP
          187-2003].


     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of  Vote  13  -  Statistics
          South Africa  for  2002-2003,  including  the  Report  of  the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003  [RP
          190-2003].
 (22)   The following paper is referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Defence and to the Joint Standing Committee on Defence.


     South African Export Statistics for  Conventional  Arms  for  2000-
     2002.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 The President of the Republic submitted the following letter  dated  10
 October 2003 to the Presiding  Officers  informing  Parliament  of  the
 employment of the South African National Defence Force:


 EMPLOYMENT OF THE SOUTH AFRICAN NATIONAL DEFENCE FORCE  IN  LIBERIA  IN
 FULFILLMENT OF THE INTERNATIONAL OBLIGATIONS OF THE REPUBLIC  OF  SOUTH
 AFRICA TOWARDS THE UNITED NATIONS


 This serves to inform Parliament that on the 8th  day  of  October  Two
 Thousand and Three, I authorised the employment of  the  South  African
 National Defence Force (SANDF) personnel in  Liberia  as  part  of  the
 United Nations  Mission  in  Liberia  (UNMIL)  in  compliance  with  UN
 Security Council Resolution 1509 of September 2003.


 This employment was authorised in accordance  with  the  provisions  of
 Section 82(4)(b)(ii) of the  Constitution  of  the  Republic  of  South
 Africa, 1993 (Act No 200 of 1993), [which Section continues  to  be  in
 force in terms of Item 24(1) of Schedule 6 to the Constitution  of  the
 Republic of South Africa, 1996 (Act No 108 of 1996)], read with Section
 201(2)(c) of the said Constitution of 1996, for service as part of  the
 United Nations Mission in Liberia, in fulfillment of the  international
 obligations of the Republic of South Africa towards the United Nations,
 and in terms of Section 227(1)(b) and (c) of the Constitution of  1993,
 (which section is also still in force by virtue of  the  aforementioned
 Item 24) and Section 18(1) read together with Section 20 of the Defence
 Act, 2002 (Act No 42 of 2002).


 A total of three (3) personnel will be employed for a period of  twelve
 (12) months from 1 October 2003 to September 2004.


 The expected costs for the deployment of personnel to the  mission  for
 the period is R241 623 00.  The  South  African  contribution  will  be
 reimbursed at standard United Nations rates.


 Regards


 SIGNED
 T M MBEKI

1. The Minister of Finance:

 Government Notice No R65 published in Government Gazette No 25464 dated
 15 September 2003: Appointment of members of the Tax Courts,  in  terms
 of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).

1. The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism: (a) Montreal and Beijing Amendments to the Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

 (b)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Montreal and Beijing Amendments to
     the Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer.

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 Report by the Public Protector  in  terms  of  the  Executive  Members'
 Ethics Act, 1998, on an investigation  of  an  alleged  breach  of  the
 Executive Ethics Code by the Deputy President of the Republic of  South
 Africa, Mr J Zuma.


 The  report  is  also  available  on  the  parliamentary   website   at
 www.parliament.gov.za.


 The report, together with the following letter dated 14  October  2003,
 was submitted to the Speaker of the National Assembly by the  President
 of the Republic:


     Dear Madam Speaker


     Pursuant to Section 3(5) of the Executive Members'  Ethics  Act  82
     of 1998, I hereby submit the report  of  the  Public  Protector  in
     relation to the investigation into the disclosures  of  the  Deputy
     President. I received the Report on Sunday, 12 October 2003.


     I have accepted the findings  and  recommendations  of  the  Public
     Protector and will ask the Secretary to Cabinet to  attend  to  the
     procedural shortcomings highlighted by the Public Protector.


     Yours sincerely,






     T M MBEKI
 The report, as well as the letter,  has  been  referred  to  the  Joint
 Committee on Ethics and Members' Interests for information.

1. The Speaker:

 Letter from the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry to  the  Speaker
 of the National Assembly, in terms of section 65(2)(a)  of  the  Public
 Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999), explaining  the  delay
 in the tabling of annual reports:


 Madam Speaker


 TABLING OF ANNUAL REPORTS FOR 2001/2002
 Your letter dated 19 November 2001 refers.


 In terms of section 65(1)(a) of  the  Public  Finance  Management  Act,
 1999, Annual Reports and Financial Statements of public entities (which
 include Water Boards) must be tabled within six months of  the  end  of
 the financial year. In terms  of  Section  65(2)(a)  of  the  Act,  the
 Minister must, upon failure to table the Annual Reports  and  Financial
 Statements within six months of the end of the financial year, table  a
 written explanation in Parliament to give reasons  why  they  were  not
 tabled.


 To date, the Annual Reports of the following  Water  Boards  have  been
 received and tabled in Parliament:


     Albany Coast Water Board Amatola Water Board
     Bloem Water   Botshelo (former North West Water Supply Authority)
     Ikangala Water      Lepelle Northern Water
     Magalies Water      Mhlathuze Water
     Namakwa Water Overberg Water; and
     Pelladrift Water    Rand Water
     Sedibeng (former Goudveld Water)    Umgeni Water


 The Bushbuckridge Water Board was the remaining Water Board, which  did
 not submit its Annual Report as yet. The reason was that the Board  was
 facing financial constraints during that period hence  the  report  was
 produced at a later stage.


 Signed
 RONNIE KASRILS, MP
 MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Social Development on the South African Social Security Agency Bill [B 51 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 76), dated 15 October 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Social Development, having considered the subject of the South African Social Security Agency Bill [B 51

   • 2003] (National Assembly - sec 76), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 76 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 51A - 2003].

               TUESDAY, 21 OCTOBER 2003
     

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Assent by President in respect of Bills:

 (1)    Financial and Fiscal Commission Amendment Bill [B 21D - 2003]  -
     Act No 25 of 2003 (assented  to  and  signed  by  President  on  12
     October 2003).

1. Bills passed by Houses - to be submitted to President for assent:

 (1)    Bills passed by National Council  of  Provinces  on  21  October
     2003:


     (i)     Electoral Laws Amendment Bill  [B  54D  -  2003]  (National
             Assembly - sec 75).


     (ii)    Petroleum Pipelines Bill [B 22B - 2003] (National  Assembly
             - sec 75).

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism:

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 16 October 2003 in terms of
     Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following  Bills  as  section  75
     Bills:


     (i)     Road Accident Fund Amendment Bill [B 64 -  2003]  (National
           Assembly - sec 75).


      (ii)    Telecommunications Amendment Bill [B 65 - 2003]  (National
           Assembly - sec 75).

1. Translations of Bills submitted:

 (1)    The Minister of Minerals and Energy:


     (i)      UMthethosivivinywa  wamaPayiphi  ePhethroliyamu  [B  22  -
          2003] (National Assembly - sec 75)


     This is the official translation  into  isiZulu  of  the  Petroleum
     Pipelines Bill [B 22 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75).


 (2)    The Minister of Labour:
     (i)     Mulayotibe wa Khwiniso  Zwibviswa  zwa  Ndindakhombo  ya  u
          Shaya Mushumo [B 35 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75)


     This  is  the  official   translation   into   Tshivenda   of   the
     Unemployment Insurance Amendment  Bill  [B  35  -  2003]  (National
     Assembly - sec 75).

National Assembly:

1. Messages from National Council of Provinces to National Assembly in respect of Bills passed by Council and transmitted to Assembly:

 (1)    Message from National Council of Provinces to National Assembly:


     Bills, subject to proposed amendments,  passed  by  Council  on  21
     October  2003  and  transmitted  for  consideration  of   Council's
     proposed amendments:


     (i)     Armaments Corporation of South Africa, Limited Bill [B  18B
           -  2003]  (National  Assembly  -  sec  75)   (for   proposed
           amendments,  see  Announcements,  Tablings   and   Committee
           Reports, 13 October 2003, p 1287).


     (ii)    Criminal Procedure Amendment Bill [B 57B - 2002]  (National
           Assembly  -  sec   75)   (for   proposed   amendments,   see
           Announcements, Tablings and  Committee  Reports,  8  October
           2003, p 1279).


     The Bills have been referred to the Portfolio Committee on  Justice
     and Constitutional Development  of  the  National  Assembly  for  a
     report on the amendments proposed by the Council.


     (iii)   Alteration of Sex Description and Sex Status Bill [B 37B  -
             2003]  (National  Assembly  -   sec   75)   (for   proposed
             amendments,  see  Announcements,  Tablings  and   Committee
             Reports, 13 October 2003, p 1288).


          The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on  Home
          Affairs  of  the  National  Assembly  for  a  report  on   the
          amendments proposed by the Council.


     (iv)    Petroleum Products Amendment Bill [B 25B - 2003]  (National
             Assembly  -  sec  75)   (for   proposed   amendments,   see
             Announcements, Tablings and Committee  Reports,  9  October
             2003, p 1283).


          The Bill has been  referred  to  the  Portfolio  Committee  on
          Minerals and Energy of the National Assembly for a  report  on
          the amendments proposed by the Council.

1. Referrals to committees of papers tabled:

 The following papers have been tabled  and  are  now  referred  to  the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following paper is referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Foreign  Affairs.  The  Report  of  the  Auditor-General   on   the
     Financial Statements is  referred  to  the  Standing  Committee  on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report:
     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 3 - Department  of  Foreign
     Affairs for 2002-2003, including the Report of the  Auditor-General
     on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 193-2003].


 (2)    The following paper is referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Trade and Industry. The Report of the Independent Auditors  on  the
     Financial Statements is  referred  to  the  Standing  Committee  on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report:


     Report  and  Financial  Statements  of  the  Support  Program   for
     Industrial Innovation for 2002-2003, including the  Report  of  the
     Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.


 (3)    The following papers are referred to the Standing  Committee  on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report:


     (a)     Letter dated 23  September  2003,  from  the  Minister  for
          Justice and Constitutional  Development  tabled  in  terms  of
          section 65(2)(a) of the Public Finance  Management  Act,  1999
          (Act No 1 of 1999) explaining the delay in the tabling of  the
          Annual Report and Financial Statements of  the  Department  of
          Justice and Constitutional Development for 2002-2003.


     (b)     Letter dated 9 October 2003 from the  Minister  of  Foreign
          Affairs to the Speaker of the National Assembly, in  terms  of
          section 65(2)(a) of the Public Finance  Management  Act,  1999
          (Act No 1 of 1999), explaining the delay in the tabling of the
          Annual Report and Financial Statements of  the  Department  of
          Foreign Affairs for 2002-2003.


 (4)    The following papers are referred to the Porfolio  Committee  on
     Finance:


     (a)     Report of the Registrar of Short-Term Insurance for 2001.


     (b)     Report of the Registrar of Long-Term Insurance for 2001.


 (5)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Finance for consideration and report:


     (a)      Accession  to  the  Convention  on  Temporary   Admission:
          Istanbul Convention, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of  the
          Constitution, 1996.
     (b)     Explanatory Memorandum to the Accession to  the  Convention
          on Temporary Admission: Istanbul Convention.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Home Affairs:

 The Employment Equity Report of the  Independent  Electoral  Commission
 for 2002, tabled in terms of section 22 of the Employment  Equity  Act,
 1998 (Act No 55 of 1998).

1. The Minister of Finance:

 Government Notice No R1368 published in  Government  Gazette  No  25511
 dated 29 September 2003: Regulations issued in terms of section  30  of
 the Exchange Control Amnesty and Amendment of Taxation Laws  Act,  2003
 (Act No 12 of 2003).

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 Letter dated 29 September  2003,  from  the  Minister  for  the  Public
 Service and Administration to the Speaker of the National Assembly,  in
 terms of section 65(2)(a) of the Public Finance  Management  Act,  1999
 (Act No 1 of 1999), explaining the delay in the tabling  of  the  South
 African Management Development Institute's (SAMDI) annual report:


 Dear Madam Speaker


 SAMDI's annual report


 In terms of Section 65(1) of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999, I
 must table in the National Assembly the  annual  report  and  financial
 statements and the audit report on those statements, within  one  month
 after the accounting officer for  the  department  received  the  audit
 report.


 In terms of Section 40(1)(c) of the PFMA the accounting officer  for  a
 department must submit annual financial statements  within  two  months
 after the end of the financial year to the Auditor-General for auditing
 (i.e. 31 May of each year). SAMDI was only able to submit the mentioned
 statements for 2002/03 on 12 August 2003 due  to  capacity  and  system
 challenges.


 A preliminary detailed audit commenced in April 2003, which enabled the
 Office of the Auditor-General  to  complete  a  major  portion  of  the
 2002/03 audit. The Auditor-General  was  only  awaiting  the  financial
 statements to submit the final audit report  by  31  August  2003.  The
 current CFO started on 1 June 2003 and  was  able  to  fast  track  the
 process to prepare annual financial statements for both  the  Vote  and
 the Training Trading Account for 2002/03. This enabled SAMDI to  submit
 the signed financial statements to the Office of the Auditor-General on
 12 August 2003, thus allowing sufficient time for  the  Auditor-General
 to complete the audit within the prescribed time limit being 31  August
 2003.


 The Office of the Auditor-General outsourced the  audits  of  both  the
 Vote and the Trading Account  to  an  external  service  provider.  The
 external service provider disagreed with the treatment of  a  provision
 made in the financial  statements,  and  this  resulted  in  a  dispute
 between external service provider and National Treasury  regarding  the
 treatment of abovementioned provision amounting to R 1.1 million.  This
 process and dispute caused a delay in the finalisation of the Audit. It
 can be mentioned  that  the  external  service  provider  and  National
 Treasury agreed, in the end, that the  financial  statements  of  SAMDI
 were correct.


 Due to the abovementioned delays, the external  service  provider  will
 only be able to submit the final audit reports during mid-October  2003
 to the Auditor-General. This will result in a delayed  Audit  Committee
 meeting to approve the Annual Financial Statements, audit  reports  and
 to  finalise  the  Audit  Committee  report  on  the  Annual  Financial
 Statements and the Auditor-General's report. It is envisaged that  this
 meeting of the Audit Committee can only take place  during  mid-October
 2003. Therefore, the final Annual  Report  can  only  be  submitted  to
 myself by 31/10/2003, after which it can be printed.


 It is therefore envisaged that the  Annual  Report  of  SAMDI  will  be
 tabled by the end of November 2003.


 Kind regards,




 Signed
 G J Fraser-Moleketi
 MINISTER

                     WEDNESDAY, 22 OCTOBER 2003 ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Bills passed by Houses - to be submitted to President for assent:

 (1)    Bills passed by National Council  of  Provinces  on  22  October
     2003:


     (i)     Sectional Titles Amendment Bill [B  43  -  2003]  (National
           Assembly - sec 75).


     (ii)    Agricultural Produce Agents Amendment Bill [B 53B  -  2003]
           (National Assembly - sec 75).


     (iii)   Special Pensions Amendment Bill  [B  3  -  2003]  (National
           Assembly - sec 75).


     (iv)    Government Employees Pension Law Amendment  Bill  [B  4B  -
           2003] (National Assembly - sec 75).
     (v)     Skills Development Amendment Bill [B 46 -  2003]  (National
           Assemby - sec 75).


     (vi)     Unemployment  Insurance  Amendment  Bill  [B  35  -  2003]
           (National Assembly - sec 75).


     (vii)   Postal Services Amendment Bill  [B  40  -  2003]  (National
           Assembly - sec 75).

1. Introduction of Bills:

 (1)    The Minister of Health:


     (i)      Traditional  Health  Practitioners  Bill  [B  66  -  2003]
          (National Assembly - sec 76) [Explanatory summary of Bill  and
          prior notice  of  its  introduction  published  in  Government
          Gazette No 24751 of 14 April 2003.]


     Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on  Health  of
     the National Assembly, as well as referral  to  the  Joint  Tagging
     Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule  160,  on
     23 October 2003.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the  classification  of
     the Bill may be submitted to  the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism  (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

1. Translations of Bills submitted:

 (1)    The Minister of Public Enterprises:


     (i)     UMthethosivivinywa wokuChibiyela ukuThuthukiswa  kwaMakhono
          [B 46 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75)


     This is  the  official  translation  into  isiZulu  of  the  Skills
     Development Amendment Bill [B 46 - 2003] (National  Assemby  -  sec
     75).


 (2)    The Minister for Provincial and Local Government:


     (i)     Uhlaka lo UMthethosivivinywa woBuholi beNdabuko  nokuPhatha
          [B 58 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 76)


     This is the official translation into isiZulu  of  the  Traditional
     Leadership and Governance Framework Bill [B 58  -  2003]  (National
     Assembly - sec 76).

National Assembly:

1. Messages from National Council of Provinces to National Assembly in respect of Bills passed by Council and transmitted to Assembly:

 (1)    Message from National Council of Provinces to National Assembly:


     (i)     Bill, as amended, passed by Council on 22 October 2003  and
          transmitted for consideration of Council's amendments:
          (a) Liquor Bill [B 23B and B 23C - 2003] (National Assembly  -
              sec 76)


          The amended Bill has been referred to the Portfolio  Committee
          on Trade and Industry for a report and recommendations on  the
          Council's amendments.


     (ii)    Bills, subject to proposed amendments,  passed  by  Council
             on 22 October 2003 and  transmitted  for  consideration  of
             Council's proposed amendments:


          (a) Restitution of Land Rights Amendment Bill [B 42B  -  2003]
              (National Assembly - sec  75)  (for  proposed  amendments,
              see  Announcements,  Tablings  and  Committee  Reports,  8
              October 2003, p 1277).


          (b) Spatial Data Infrastructure Bill [B 44B - 2003]  (National
              Assembly  -  sec  75)  (for   proposed   amendments,   see
              Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports,  8  October
              2003, p 1277).


          The Bills have been referred to  the  Portfolio  Committee  on
          Agriculture and Land Affairs of the National  Assembly  for  a
          report on the amendments proposed by the Council.

1. Referral of Bill to Committees:

 (i)    Armaments Corporation of South Africa, Limited  Bill  [B  18B  -
     2003] (National Assembly - sec 75) (for amendments proposed by  the
     National Council of  Provinces,  see  Announcements,  Tablings  and
     Committee Reports, 13 October 2003, p 1287).


     The Bill was incorrectly referred to  the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Justice and Constitutional Development (see Announcments,  Tablings
     and Committee Reports, 21 October 2003, p 1311).  The  Bill  should
     have been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Defence.

                       MONDAY, 27 OCTOBER 2003

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly:

1. Referrals to committees of papers tabled:

 The following papers have been tabled  and  are  now  referred  to  the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Arts,  Culture,  Science  and  Technology  for  consideration   and
     report:


     (a)     Southern African Development Community (SADC)  Protocol  on
          Culture, Information and Sport, tabled  in  terms  of  section
          231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


     (b)     Explanatory Memorandum to the Southern African  Development
          Community (SADC) Protocol on Culture, Information and Sport.


 (2)    The following paper is referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Education. The Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the  Financial
     Statements  is  referred  to  the  Standing  Committee  on   Public
     Accounts for consideration and report:


     Report  and  Financial  Statements  of  Vote  15  -  Department  of
     Education for 2002-2003,  including  the  Report  of  the  Auditor-
     General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 112-2003].


 (3)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Education:


     (a)     Government Notice No 1407 published in  Government  Gazette
          No 25545 dated  6  October  2003:  National  policy  regarding
          further education and training  programmes:  Approval  of  the
          National  Curriculum  Statement  Grades  10-12   (Grades)   as
          national policy, in terms of  the  National  Education  Policy
          Act, 1996 (Act No 27 of 1996) and the  South  African  Schools
          Act, 1996 (Act No 84 of 1996).


     (b)     Government Notice No 1348 published in  Government  Gazette
          No  25501  dated  26  September   2003:   Regulations:   Level
          descriptors for levels 1 to 4 of the  National  Qualifications
          Framework,  in  terms  of  the  South  African  Qualifications
          Authority Act, 1995 (Act No 58 of 1995).


 (4)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Defence and the Joint Standing Committee on Defence:


     (a)     South African Export Statistics for Conventional  Arms  for
          2000-2002.


     (b)      Letter  from  the  President  of  the  Republic  informing
          Parliament of the employment of  the  South  African  National
          Defence Force in Liberia in fulfillment of  the  International
          obligations of the Republic of South Africa towards the United
          Nations.


 (5)    The following papers are referred to the Standing  Committee  on
     Public Accounts for consideration:


     (a)      Letter  dated  10  October  2003,  from  the  Minister  of
          Education to the Speaker of the National Assembly, in terms of
          section 65(2)(a) of the Public Finance  Management  Act,  1999
          (Act No 1 of 1999), explaining the delay in the tabling of the
          Annual Report and Financial Statements of  the  Department  of
          Education for 2002-2003.


     (b)     Letter from the Minister of Water Affairs and  Forestry  to
          the Speaker of the National  Assembly,  in  terms  of  section
          65(2)(a) of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No  1
          of 1999), explaining  the  delay  in  the  tabling  of  annual
          reports.


     (c)     Letter dated 29 September 2003, from the Minister  for  the
          Public Service  and  Administration  to  the  Speaker  of  the
          National Assembly, in terms of section 65(2)(a) of the  Public
          Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1  of  1999),  explaining
          the delay in the  tabling  of  the  South  African  Management
          Development Institute's (SAMDI) annual report.


 (6)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Finance:


     (a)     Government Notice No R65 published  in  Government  Gazette
          No 25464 dated 15 September 2003: Appointment  of  members  of
          the Tax Courts, in terms of the Income Tax Act, 1962  (Act  No
          58 of 1962).


     (b)     Government Notice No R1368 published in Government  Gazette
          No 25511 dated 29 September 2003: Regulations issued in  terms
          of section 30 of the Exchange Control Amnesty and Amendment of
          Taxation Laws Act, 2003 (Act No 12 of 2003).


 (7)    The following paper is referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Home Affairs and the Portfolio Committee on Labour:


     The  Employment  Equity  Report  of   the   Independent   Electoral
     Commission  for  2002,  tabled  in  terms  of  section  22  of  the
     Employment Equity Act, 1998 (Act No 55 of 1998).


 (8)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Environmental Affairs and Tourism for consideration and report:


     (a)     Montreal and Beijing Amendments to  the  Montreal  Protocol
          on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer, tabled in terms of
          section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


     (b)      Explanatory  Memorandum  to  the  Montreal   and   Beijing
          Amendments to the Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete
          the Ozone Layer.


 (9)    The following paper is referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Arts, Culture, Science and Technology. The Report of  the  Auditor-
     General on the Financial Statements is  referred  to  the  Standing
     Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report:


     Report and Financial Statements of the National  Museum  for  2002-
     2003, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the  Financial
     Statements for 2002-2003.


 (10)   The following paper is referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Trade and Industry:


     Report and Financial Statements of the Board on Tariffs  and  Trade
     (International Trade Administration) for 2002-2003.


 (11)   The following paper is referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Justice and Constitutional Development:


     Rules of the Constitutional Court in terms of section  16(1)(b)  of
     the Constitutional Court Complimentary Act,  1995  (Act  No  13  of
     1995). TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology:

 Report and Financial Statements of the National Museum  for  2002-2003,
 including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
 for 2002-2003.

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry:

 Report and Financial Statements of  the  Board  on  Tariffs  and  Trade
 (International Trade Administration) for 2002-2003.

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

 Rules of the Constitutional Court in terms of section 16(1)(b)  of  the
 Constitutional Court Complimentary Act, 1995 (Act No 13 of 1995).

                     WEDNESDAY, 29 OCTOBER 2003

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Introduction of Bills:

 (1)    The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs:


     (i)     Communal Land Rights Bill [B 67 - 2003] (National  Assembly
          - sec 75) [Bill and prior notice of its introduction published
          in Government Gazette No 25562 of 17 October 2003.]


     Introduction  and  referral   to   the   Portfolio   Committee   on
     Agriculture and Land Affairs of the National Assembly, as  well  as
     referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism  (JTM)  for  classification
     in terms of Joint Rule 160, on 30 October 2003.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the  classification  of
     the Bill may be submitted to  the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism  (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Finance:

 Annual Financial  Statements  of  the  Reconstruction  and  Development
 Programme Fund for 2002-2003, including  the  Report  of  the  Auditor-
 General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry:

 Report and Financial Statements of Khula Enterprise Finance Limited for
 2002-2003, including the Report of  the  Independent  Auditors  on  the
 Financial Statements for 2002-2003.

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

 (a)    Government Notice No R1318 published in  Government  Gazette  No
     25456 dated 19 September 2003: Determinations of Amounts  in  terms
     of the Administrations of Estates Act, 1965 (Act No 66 of 1965).


 (b)    Government Notice No R1244 published in  Government  Gazette  No
     25411 dated 22 September 2003: Regulations regarding the  promotion
     of access to information - Amended Regulations,  in  terms  of  the
     Promotion of Access to Information Act, 2000 (Act No 2 of 2000).


 (c)    Government Notice No R1339 published in  Government  Gazette  No
     25485 dated 26 September 2003: Regulations made  in  terms  of  the
     Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of 1993).

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Social Development on the Social Assistance Bill [B 57 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 76), dated 15 October 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Social Development, having considered the subject of the Social Assistance Bill [B 57 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 76), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 76 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 57A - 2003].

2. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government on the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Bill [B 58 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 76), dated 28 October 2003:

 The Portfolio Committee on  Provincial  and  Local  Government,  having
 considered the subject of the  Traditional  Leadership  and  Governance
 Framework Bill [B 58 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 76), referred  to
 it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 76  Bill,
 reports the Bill with amendments [B 58A - 2003].


 The Committee reports further, as follows:


 1.     The Committee received a very wide range of submissions  on  the
     Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Bill during  public
     hearings. On the one  hand,  there  were  traditional  leaders  who
     argued that the Bill should not be proceeded with. They  held  that
     the Constitution  should  first  be  amended  to  give  traditional
     authorities the same powers and functions as local government,  and
     thereafter legislation should be passed to  give  practical  effect
     to this. On the other hand, there were statutory bodies,  NGOs  and
     community organisations that had reservations about  the  Bill  and
     argued that it is a retreat from democracy and serves to  undermine
     the rights of women. In  between  these  organisations  there  were
     others that welcomed the basic thrust of the  Bill,  even  if  they
     had reservations about some of its clauses.


 2.     The Committee was challenged to find consensus among  this  wide
     range of stakeholders and to seek to locate this  consensus  within
     the policies of our respective  political  parties  on  traditional
     leadership.


 3.     In response to the traditional leaders,  the  Committee  pointed
     out that while constitutional  amendments  are  not  made  lightly,
     they cannot be  ruled  out  altogether  either  in  addressing  the
     issues they raised. But the major issues  in  the  White  Paper  on
     Traditional Leadership  and  Governance  and  the  Bill  should  be
     proceeded with. As it is a section 76  Bill,  there  will  also  be
     considerable input from the  provinces.  If,  at  the  end  of  the
     process of taking the  Bill  through  both  Houses  of  Parliament,
     there is significant consensus  between  the  traditional  leaders,
     SALGA  and  other  key  stakeholders  that  there  is  a  need  for
     constitutional  amendments,  the  parliamentary   committees   will
     consider proposing to the executive that it considers this.


 4.      In  response  to   statutory   bodies,   NGOs   and   community
     organisations, the Committee pointed  out  that  the  role  of  the
     traditional leadership in our  society  is  certainly  reconcilable
     with  the  basic  principles  and  values  of   our   Constitution,
     including  democracy  and   gender   equality.   After   all,   the
     institution of  traditional  leadership  is  provided  for  in  the
     Constitution. The Bill in fact provides for the  transformation  of
     the institution of traditional leadership so that it is  consistent
     with the needs of our new democracy. But it has to  be  appreciated
     that, while customs and traditions are  not  static,  they  have  a
     momentum  of  their  own.  It  is  far  more  difficult  to  effect
     transformation through legislation  in  the  areas  of  custom  and
     tradition than it is in other  aspects  of  society,  for  example,
     education, the economy or health care. Transformation in the  areas
     of custom and tradition have to be phased in appropriately.


 5.      It  was  pointed  out  to  all  stakeholders  that  traditional
     leadership is a concurrent  function  of  national  and  provincial
     government. The Bill therefore could not  be  unduly  prescriptive.
     It seeks, in fact, to provide a national framework  and  norms  and
     standards in terms of which provincial legislation will be  enacted
     that will take into account provincial specifics.


 6.     It was further communicated that this Bill deals with  the  role
     and functions of traditional leadership  in  governance  generally.
     The specific  role  and  functions  of  traditional  leadership  in
     different   areas,   for   example,   customary    justice,    land
     administration and welfare, will be dealt with  by  the  respective
     Ministries, Departments and Portfolio Committees.  In  response  to
     several questions raised  by  stakeholders  during  and  after  the
     public hearings, the Committee made it clear  that  the  Bill  does
     not specify any particular role for  traditional  leaders  in  land
     administration. However, shortly before  the  finalisation  of  the
     Bill, the Communal Land Rights Bill was introduced  in  Parliament,
     containing a new clause that provides for traditional  councils  to
     serve as land administration committees. Several stakeholders  have
     raised objections with the Committee to this role  for  traditional
     councils. We have explained, however, that  we  did  not  have  any
     prior knowledge that the  traditional  councils  would  serve  this
     particular role in the particular way set out in the Communal  Land
     Rights Bill. We  appreciate  the  concerns  the  stakeholders  have
     raised, but feel that their concerns cannot  be  addressed  in  the
     Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Bill but will  have
     to be dealt with in the Communal Land Rights Bill. Accordingly,  we
     have referred them to the Portfolio Committee  on  Agriculture  and
     Land  Affairs,  and  have  also  raised  their  concerns  with  the
     Chairperson of that Committee directly.


 7.     The Committee urged all  stakeholders  to  appreciate  that  the
     processing of this Bill represents a phase in the  ongoing  process
     of defining the role of traditional leaders in our  new  system  of
     democratic governance. The Bill is a  significant  advance  on  the
     Bill brought to Parliament in November 2000 that was not  proceeded
     with for a variety of reasons. Not  all  the  demands  of  all  the
     stakeholders could be met in the finalisation of the current  Bill.
     All stakeholders should be prepared to compromise  in  this  phase.
     This does not  mean  that  they  cannot  pursue  their  outstanding
     demands in future.


 8.     The amendments to the Bill made by the Committee constitute,  we
     think, an intricate set of balances  of  the  demands  of  the  key
     stakeholders.  Essentially,  they  revolve  around   simultaneously
     enhancing the  role  of  traditional  leadership  institutions  and
     requiring them to be more transformative. This  is  reflected,  for
     example, in providing for Bills  pertaining  to  customary  law  or
     customs to be first referred to the National House  of  Traditional
     Leaders for 30 days for its comments before Parliament can  process
     them. But we have also provided for 40%, instead  of  the  original
     25%, of the members of traditional councils  to  be  democratically
     elected, and for the transitional period for  existing  tribal  and
     community authorities to transform to be substantially reduced.


 9.      Traditional  leaders  and  others  see  the  word  "chief"   as
     derogatory and find it unacceptable. The  Ministry  and  Department
     proposed, with  reservations,  replacing  "chief"  with  "principal
     traditional leader". After much discussion  the  Committee  finally
     opted for "senior traditional leader", with the understanding  that
     the provincial legislation to be enacted will  use  the  applicable
     traditional term, such as inkosi, kgoshi, morena, etc.


 10.    Traditional leaders stressed that the Bill refers only to  their
     "functions",  not  "powers".  They  wanted  their  "powers"  to  be
     restored. The Committee pointed out that  the  Constitution  refers
     only to the "role" of  traditional  leadership.  The  Ministry  and
     Department of Provincial and Local Government  explained  that  the
     Bill  does  not  take  away  any  of  the  "customary  powers"   of
     traditional leaders and  actually  provides  additional  "statutory
     functions". Moreover, the Bill provides for a role for  traditional
     leadership, not just in the local government  sphere,  but  in  all
     three spheres of government.


 11.    The primary focus of the local houses of traditional leaders  is
     to engage with district municipalities  around  issues  of  service
     delivery and development in traditional authority areas. To  ensure
     an effective role in this, local houses of traditional leaders  are
     not required, in terms of the Bill, to be unduly  involved  in  the
     recognition of traditional  leaders,  traditional  communities  and
     traditional councils and  other  related  issues.  In  this  sense,
     their role is not the exact equivalent of the  role  of  provincial
     houses  of  traditional  leaders  and   the   National   House   of
     Traditional Leaders.


 12.    Ideally, the majority  in  the  Committee  believe,  traditional
     leaders should not be involved in political  parties.  They  should
     be non-partisan if they are to  effectively  play  their  roles  as
     traditional leaders. Their vital roles  in  creating  unity,  peace
     and harmony within and between communities is undermined  by  being
     active in political parties. However, the Committee recognises  the
     particular history of this country and acknowledges that  for  some
     time to come  traditional  leaders  will  be  active  in  political
     parties. Over time, however, traditional  leaders  should  consider
     increasingly withdrawing  from  party  politics  if  they  want  to
     effectively   fulfil   their   roles   as   traditional    leaders.
     Consideration might have to be given to  mechanisms  to  facilitate
     this over time.


 13.    The  Committee  is  uneasy  about  the  provision  for  "deputy"
     traditional leaders in the Bill, as there is already provision  for
     "acting" traditional leaders. However, in  view  of  the  intricate
     negotiations between the Ministry and  Department  and  traditional
     leaders  on  the  issue  of  "deputy"  traditional   leaders,   the
     Committee decided to retain the provision for "deputy"  traditional
     leaders.


 14.    While the provisions for the transformation of  the  institution
     of traditional  leadership  so  that  it  is  consistent  with  the
     Constitution, in particular  its  democratic  and  gender  equality
     aspects, are adequate for now, they may not be in future. The  Bill
     should therefore be reviewed over time to take account of this.  In
     particular,  the  issue  of  gender  equality  as  it  applies   to
     succession of traditional leaders needs to  be  addressed  further.
     This issue could not be dealt with adequately in the  current  Bill
     for a variety of reasons, and requires  further  consultation  with
     traditional leaders  and  other  key  stakeholders  before  further
     regulation is provided for.


 15.    In view of the role of traditional councils in  development  and
     service delivery, it would be useful if some of the people  elected
     to the councils are chosen  because  of  the  developmental  skills
     they have.


 16.    Since the pre-1994 legislation refers to "tribes", the  drafters
     of the Bill  were  forced  in  a  few  sections  to  use  the  word
     "tribes". As the majority in the Committee believe that it  is  not
     an appropriate  term,  it  has  been  used  only  where  completely
     unavoidable and in a transitional context.  The  term  is  used  in
     quotation marks to convey this.
 17.    Several submissions made at the public hearings  and  thereafter
     dealt  with  disputes  around   who   constitutes   a   traditional
     community, the geographical boundaries of a traditional  community,
     the succession of traditional leaders  and  other  related  issues.
     These  submissions  will  be  referred   to   the   Commission   on
     Traditional  Leadership  Disputes  and  Claims  as   soon   as   it
     established. There have  been  several  provincial  commissions  of
     inquiry  established  since   1994   to   investigate   traditional
     leadership disputes and claims. Some of the matters they have  been
     investigating, have not yet been finalised. The  Commission  to  be
     established in terms of this Bill should consider addressing  these
     outstanding matters as soon as possible.  The  Committee  is  clear
     that while the Commission will focus mainly on disputes and  claims
     arising since the enactment of  the  Black  Administration  Act  of
     1927, there are disputes and claims  that  predate  this  Act  that
     will also require the Commission's attention.


 18.    A legislative programme is necessary to  attend  to  outstanding
     issues from the White Paper and as a consequence of the passing  of
     this Bill. This would include the following:


     *    Provincial   legislation   on   traditional   leadership   and
       governance.


     *  The amendment of  the  legislation  on  the  National  House  of
       Traditional  Leaders  and  the  various  Provincial  Houses   of
       Traditional Leaders.


     *  Regulations required to be passed in terms of this Bill.


     *  Amendments to section 81 of the Municipal Structures Act.


     *  Amendments to legislation dealing with the pension, medical  aid
       and other benefits of traditional leaders.


     *   Legislation  assigning  additional  functions  to   traditional
       leadership as envisaged  in  the  White  Paper,  where  this  is
       necessary.


 19.    There will also have to be a repeal of or amendments to pre-1994
     legislation dealing with traditional leadership.


 20.    In allocating functions to traditional leadership  institutions,
     the capacity of the institutions has to be taken into account.


 21.    The State Liability Act does not cover traditional institutions.
     The relevant provincial legislation does not address the  liability
     of traditional leadership comprehensively either. This needs to  be
     addressed by the Ministry and Department. Consideration  should  be
     given to doing so in the provincial legislation to  be  enacted  in
     terms of this Bill.


 22.    The Committee has observed that some royal families are divided,
     and this  may  impact  on  the  implementation  of  the  Bill.  The
     Committee does not  believe  at  this  stage  it  is  necessary  to
     legislate on this  matter,  but  in  future,  if  necessary,  after
     consultation with traditional leaders and other  key  stakeholders,
     consideration might have to be given to this.


 23.    The Ministry and Department  need  to  consider  what  practical
     steps can be taken to co-ordinate the activities of  the  National,
     Provincial and Local Houses  of  Traditional  leaders.  There  also
     needs to be a level of co-ordination between  traditional  councils
     and the Houses.


 24.    Obviously, the Khoisan communities  have  enormously  legitimate
     claims to rights in terms of customs and tradition. But  they  have
     specific needs and interests that are still  being  dealt  with  by
     the Ministry and Department, and it was  not  possible  to  address
     them in this Bill. Our Committee has  constantly  raised  with  the
     Department the concerns of the Khoisan communities. While there  is
     progress in this regard, we would like to see  more  progress.  For
     now, the Khoisan communities have to be  treated  separately.  Over
     time, there should be more dialogue between the National  House  of
     Traditional Leaders and  the  Khoisan  Council,  and  consideration
     should be given in the longer term to  including  all  sections  of
     traditional leaders in one national structure. The  Committee  will
     continue to monitor  progress  relating  to  the  concerns  of  the
     Khoisan communities as they apply to rights  in  terms  of  customs
     and tradition.


 25.     In  the  memorandum  to  the  Bill,  the  cost  per  annum   of
     establishing  Local  Houses  of  Traditional  Leaders  is  put   at
     R33 303 074 and the Commission on Traditional  Leadership  Disputes
     and Claims at R8 528 895. A further R60 476 548 has been  allocated
     for the remuneration of headmen and  headwomen  who  are  currently
     not being paid. The Committee feels that  there  are  other  costs,
     including  those  for  traditional  councils  and  the  Houses   of
     Traditional Leaders, that have not been catered for. There is  also
     concern that more people will  claim  to  be  traditional  leaders,
     particularly as headmen and headwomen, and demand the  remuneration
     that goes with it, than has been provided for in the  estimates  of
     expenditure tabled by the Department. The Committee feels that  the
     Department  should  consider  phasing  in  aspects   of   the   new
     traditional leadership dispensation taking into  account  budgetary
     constraints.


 26.    The Committee is also concerned that  there  may  be  situations
     where councillors in a municipality  earn  less  than  headmen  and
     headwomen and senior traditional leaders, and that  this  may  lead
     to  conflict.  The  Committee   reiterates   its   concerns   about
     councillors' salaries expressed in its "Report  on  Study  Tour  of
     Municipalities" which appeared in the  ATC  of  13  May  2003,  and
     feels that this is yet another reason why some  of  those  concerns
     should be addressed expeditiously. The Ministry and Department  are
     requested to take this into account.


 27.    In view of the State's commitment to providing greater resources
     to, and enhancing the capacity-building programmes of,  traditional
     leaders, there is a  need  for  the  Executive  and  Parliament  to
     monitor  the  activities  of  traditional  leadership  institutions
     appropriately. Over  time,  consideration  needs  to  be  given  to
     bringing the traditional leadership institutions within  the  ambit
     of the Public Finance Management Act.


 Report to be considered.

                      THURSDAY, 30 OCTOBER 2003 ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Assent by President in respect of Bills:

 (1)    Judicial Officers (Amendment of Conditions of Service)  Bill  [B
     33B - 2003] - Act  No  28  of  2003  (assented  to  and  signed  by
     President on 28 October 2003).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The President of the Republic:

 Report and  Financial  Statements  of  The  Presidency  for  2002-2003,
 including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
 for 2002-2003 [RP 130-2003].

1. The Minister of Transport:

 Report and Financial Statements of the Urban Transport Fund  for  2000-
 2001 and 2001-2002, including the Report of the Auditor-General on  the
 Financial Statements for 2000-2001 and 2001-2002 [RP 196-2003].

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

 (a)    Protocol on Southern African Development (SADC) Tribunal, tabled
     in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (b)    Agreement amending the Protocol on Southern African  Development
     (SADC)  Tribunal,  tabled  in  terms  of  section  231(2)  of   the
     Constitution, 1996.


 (c)    Explanatory Memorandum  to  the  Protocol  on  Southern  African
     Development (SADC) Tribunal and Agreement amending the Protocol  on
     Southern African Development (SADC) Tribunal.

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 Letter dated 27 October 2003, from the Minister  of  Transport  to  the
 Speaker of the National Assembly, in terms of section 65(2)(a)  of  the
 Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999), explaining  the
 delay in the tabling of the following annual reports:


     Madam Speaker,


     Cross Border Road Transport Agency


     The provisional financial statements of the Agency  were  finalised
     and submitted for audit  within  two  months  of  the  end  of  the
     financial year.


     During  the  audit  review,  the  Office  of  the   Auditor-General
     identified  several  errors  and   omissions   in   the   financial
     statements. The  Chief  Financial  Officer  of  the  Agency  worked
     closely with the Office  of  the  Auditor-General  to  rectify  and
     finalise the financial  statements.  The  process  that  ensued  to
     rectify the  errors  and  omissions  on  the  financial  statements
     caused a delay in the finalisation of the audit and  annual  report
     within the prescribed timeframes.


     Urban Transport Fund


     The audit for 2003 was delayed due to the late finalisation of  the
     audit of the previous two years.  The  combined  audit  report  for
     2002 and 2001 was only finalised and delivered on 1  October  2003.
     By the end of September 2003 the audit  report  for  the  financial
     year ended 31 March 2003 was not yet received.  The  annual  report
     could therefore not be finalised within the prescribed timeframes.


     South African National Roads Agency Ltd.


     The financial statements were finalised  and  submitted  for  audit
     within two months of the end of the financial year.


     The Board of the  Agency  approved  the  financial  statements,  as
     adjusted during the completion of the audit, on 5 August  2003.  By
     the end of September 2003 the audit report was  not  yet  received.
     The annual report could  therefore  not  be  finalised  within  the
     prescribed timeframes.


     South African Maritime Safety Authority


     The audit for the previous year  was  delayed  due  to  a  forensic
     audit that was  instituted  within  the  Authority.  The  Authority
     requested the Office of the Auditor-General to finalise  the  audit
     for the previous year even though the forensic audit  has  not  yet
     been finalised.


     Because of the delay in the finalisation  of  the  previous  year's
     audit, the audit for the year ended 31 March  2003  only  commenced
     on 4 August 2003. By the end of September  2003  the  audit  report
     was not yet received. The annual  report  could  therefore  not  be
     finalised within the prescribed timeframes.


     Road Accident Fund


     The provision for outstanding claims has a material impact  on  the
     financial statements of  the  Road  Accident  Fund.  The  actuarial
     valuation of outstanding claims is a  time-consuming  process  done
     by  external  actuaries,  and  was  not  finalised  on   time   for
     finalising the financial statements within two months  of  the  end
     of the financial year.


     The delay  in  the  finalisation  of  the  actuarial  valuation  of
     outstanding claims caused  a  delay  in  the  finalisation  of  the
     audit. By the end of September 2003 the audit report  was  not  yet
     received. The  annual  report  could  therefore  not  be  finalised
     within the prescribed timeframes.


     Road Traffic Management Corporation


     The Road Traffic Management Corporation  was  listed  as  a  Public
     Entity and commenced activities during the financial year ended  31
     March 2003. Because the functions that should be  taken  over  from
     the Provincial Authorities by the Corporation were not  yet  agreed
     to, no financial support staff was appointed during the year.


     The  Department  of  Transport  arranged  for   the   creation   of
     accounting records and the  processing  of  financial  transactions
     and compiled the first financial statements of the  Corporation  in
     order to assist  the  Corporation  to  comply  with  the  reporting
     requirements of the Public Finance Management Act.


     The financial statements of  the  Corporation  were  submitted  for
     audit on 20 June 2003. By the  end  of  September  2003  the  audit
     report was not yet received. The annual report could therefore  not
     be finalised within the prescribed timeframes.


     Signed


     A M Omar, MP
     MINISTER OF TRANSPORT

                       FRIDAY, 31 OCTOBER 2003

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 Report and Financial Statements  of  the  South  African  Human  Rights
 Commission for 2002-2003, including the Report of  the  Auditor-General
 on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 142-2003].

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry:

 (a)    Southern African Customs Union Agreement between the Governments
     of the Republic of Botswana, the Kingdom of Lesotho,  the  Republic
     of Namibia, the  Republic  of  South  Africa  and  the  Kingdom  of
     Swaziland, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of  the  Constitution,
     1996.


 (b)    Explanatory Memorandum to the  Southern  African  Customs  Union
     Agreement between the Governments of the Republic of Botswana,  the
     Kingdom of Lesotho, the Republic of Namibia, the Republic of  South
     Africa and the Kingdom of Swaziland.

1. The Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

 Report  and  Financial  Statements  of  the  South  African  Management
 Development Institute (SAMDI) for 2001-2002, including  the  Report  of
 the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002  [RP  10-
 2003].

1. The Minister of Housing:

 Report  and  Financial  Statements  of  the  National   Home   Builders
 Registration Council for 2002-2003, including the Report of the Auditor-
 General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 164-2003].

                       MONDAY, 3 NOVEMBER 2003

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Translations of Bills submitted:

 (1)    The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs:


     (i)     Wysigingswetsontwerp  op  Landbouprodukte-agente  [W  53  -
          2003] (National Assembly - sec 75)


     This  is  the  official   translation   into   Afrikaans   of   the
     Agricultural Produce Agents Amendment Bill [B 53 - 2003]  (National
     Assembly - sec 75).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 Report and Financial Statements of the Independent Electoral Commission
 - Represented Political Parties'  Fund  for  2002-2003,  including  the
 Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003
 [RP 68-2003].

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry:

 Report and Financial  Statements  of  the  Companies  and  Intellectual
 Property Registration  Office  (CIPRO)  for  2002-2003,  including  the
 Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003
 [RP 131-2003].

                     WEDNESDAY, 5 NOVEMBER 2003

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Translations of Bills submitted: (1) The Minister of Defence:

   (i) Molaotlhomo wa Kiletso ya Dibomo tse di Ripitlang Batho [M 44 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75)

   This is the official translation into Setswana of the Anti- Personnel Mines Prohibition Bill [B 44 - 2002] (National Assembly

   • sec 75).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly:

Papers:

1. The Speaker:

 (a)    Report of the Public Service Commission  on  the  Evaluation  of
     Land Administration in the Eastern Cape for 2003 [RP 52-2003].


 (b)    Report of the Public Service Commission on  the  Monitoring  and
     Evaluation System - Pilot Study in the Northern Cape for  2002  [RP
     180-2002].

                       FRIDAY, 7 NOVEMBER 2003

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Assent by President in respect of Bills:

 (1)    Electoral Laws Amendment Bill [B 54D - 2003] - Act No 34 of 2003
     (assented to and signed by President on 2 November 2003).

1. Introduction of Bills:

 (1)    The Minister of Social Development:


     (i)     Older Persons Bill [B 68 - 2003] (National Assembly  -  sec
          76) [Explanatory summary of  Bill  and  prior  notice  of  its
          introduction published in Government Gazette No  25347  of  13
          August 2003.]


     Introduction and referral to  the  Portfolio  Committee  on  Social
     Development of the National Assembly, as well as  referral  to  the
     Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of  Joint
     Rule 160, on 7 November 2003.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the  classification  of
     the Bill may be submitted to  the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism  (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

National Assembly:

1. Referrals to committees of papers tabled:

 The following papers have been tabled  and  are  now  referred  to  the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following paper is referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Finance.  The  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the  Financial
     Statements  is  referred  to  the  Standing  Committee  on   Public
     Accounts for consideration and report:


     Annual Financial Statements of the Reconstruction  and  Development
     Programme Fund for 2002-2003, including the Report of the  Auditor-
     General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.


 (2)    The following paper is referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Trade and Industry.  The  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
     Financial Statements is  referred  to  the  Standing  Committee  on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report:


     Report  and  Financial  Statements  of  Khula  Enterprise   Finance
     Limited for 2002-2003, including  the  Report  of  the  Independent
     Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.


 (3)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Trade and Industry for consideration and report:


     (a)      Southern  African  Customs  Union  Agreement  between  the
          Governments of  the  Republic  of  Botswana,  the  Kingdom  of
          Lesotho, the Republic of Namibia, the Republic of South Africa
          and the Kingdom of  Swaziland,  tabled  in  terms  of  section
          231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


     (b)     Explanatory Memorandum  to  the  Southern  African  Customs
          Union Agreement between the Governments  of  the  Republic  of
          Botswana, the Kingdom of Lesotho, the Republic of Namibia, the
          Republic of South Africa and the Kingdom of Swaziland.


 (4)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Justice and Constitutional Development:


     (a)     Government Notice No R1318 published in Government  Gazette
          No 25456 dated 19 September 2003: Determinations of Amounts in
          terms of the Administrations of Estates Act, 1965 (Act  No  66
          of 1965).


     (b)     Government Notice No R1244 published in Government  Gazette
          No 25411 dated 22 September 2003:  Regulations  regarding  the
          promotion of access to information - Amended  Regulations,  in
          terms of the Promotion of Access to Information Act, 2000 (Act
          No 2 of 2000).


     (c)     Government Notice No R1339 published in Government  Gazette
          No 25485 dated 26 September 2003: Regulations made in terms of
          the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of 1993).


 (5)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee  on
     Justice  and  Constitutional  Development  for  consideration   and
     report:


     (a)     Protocol on Southern African Development  (SADC)  Tribunal,
          tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


     (b)      Agreement  amending  the  Protocol  on  Southern   African
          Development (SADC) Tribunal, tabled in terms of section 231(2)
          of the Constitution, 1996.


     (c)     Explanatory Memorandum to the Protocol on Southern  African
          Development  (SADC)  Tribunal  and  Agreement   amending   the
          Protocol on Southern African Development (SADC) Tribunal.
 (6)    The following paper is referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Transport. The Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the  Financial
     Statements  is  referred  to  the  Standing  Committee  on   Public
     Accounts for consideration and report:


     Report and Financial Statements of the  Urban  Transport  Fund  for
     2000-2001 and 2001-2002,  including  the  Report  of  the  Auditor-
     General on the Financial Statements  for  2000-2001  and  2001-2002
     [RP 196-2003].


 (7)    The following paper is referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Housing.  The  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the  Financial
     Statements  is  referred  to  the  Standing  Committee  on   Public
     Accounts for consideration and report:


     Report and Financial  Statements  of  the  National  Home  Builders
     Registration Council for 2002-2003, including  the  Report  of  the
     Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP  164-
     2003].

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Criminal Procedure Amendment Bill [B 57B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 5 November 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the Criminal Procedure Amendment Bill [B 57B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75) and a proposed amendment of the National Council of Provinces (Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 8 October 2003, p 1279), referred to the Committee, reports the Bill with an amendment [B 57C - 2002].

 Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Judicial Matters Second Amendment Bill [B 41 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 5 November 2003:

 The Portfolio Committee  on  Justice  and  Constitutional  Development,
 having considered the subject of the Judicial Matters Second  Amendment
 Bill [B 41 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75),  referred  to  it  and
 classified by the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism  as  a  section  75  Bill,
 endorses the classification of the  Bill  and  reports  the  Bill  with
 amendments [B 41A - 2003].


 The Committee wishes to report further, as follows:


 1.     The amendments proposed to  section  10  of  the  Administration
     Amendment  Act,  1929  (Act  No.  9  of  1929),  have  alerted  the
     Committee  to  the  need  to   rationalise   the   Divorce   Courts
     established in terms  of  that  Act,  by  ensuring  that  they  are
     integrated into the existing lower  court  structures  as  soon  as
     possible. The Committee consequently  requests  the  Department  to
     speed up the rationalisation of the lower  courts,  one  aspect  of
     which  will  be  to  incorporate  these  Divorce  Courts  into  the
     magistrates' courts system. The Department is  to  report  back  to
     the Committee on progress in this regard within four  months  after
     the adoption of this report.


 2.     Clause 3 of the Bill, as introduced, amends section  60  of  the
     Criminal Procedure Act, 1977 (Act No.  51  of  1977),  by  obliging
     presiding  officers  to  take  a  pre-trial  services  report  into
     account during bail proceedings if such a report is available.  The
     purpose of a pre-trial services report is to assist  the  court  in
     making a decision regarding the release of a person on  bail.  This
     amendment emanates from a request of  the  Portfolio  Committee  on
     Justice and Constitutional Development after its  oversight  visits
     to the courts, which included a visit to  some  courts  which  have
     pre-trial services available. The Committee, while agreeing to  the
     principle contained in  the  amendment,  expressed  the  view  that
     these pre-trial services and reports can be  of  immense  value  to
     the courts, especially in bail proceedings. If used to  their  full
     potential, they can contribute to the elimination of delays in  the
     courts and can also facilitate the release of  many  awaiting-trial
     prisoners who are granted bail but who  are  not  released  because
     they cannot afford to pay  the  amount  of  money  set  as  a  bail
     condition. This could go some way  in  addressing  the  problem  of
     prison  overcrowding.  The  Committee  consequently  requests   the
     Department -
     (a)     to  undertake  a  feasibility  study  of  rolling  out  the
          existing four  pilot  projects  sites  relating  to  pre-trial
          services with the view to eventually having comprehensive pre-
          trial services available at all courts in the  country,  where
          such services are justified; and


     (b)     possibly, in conjunction with the South African Law  Reform
          Commission, to -


          (i) investigate what statutory authority will be necessary  to
                implement these services on a nation-wide basis; and


          (ii)     submit appropriate legislation to Parliament.


     The Department must report back  to  the  Committee  regarding  the
     progress made as soon as  possible,  but  not  later  than  at  the
     beginning of the 2004 session of Parliament.
 3.     At present section 79 of the Criminal Procedure Act,  1977  (Act
     No. 51 of 1977), in the case of serious offences, requires a  panel
     of psychiatrists to be appointed for  purposes  of  inquiring  into
     the  capacity  of  an  accused  person   to   understand   criminal
     proceedings pending  against  him  or  her  or  into  the  criminal
     capacity of an  accused  person,  where  mental  incapacity  is  an
     issue. This panel must consist of  at  least  three  psychiatrists,
     one from a  psychiatric  hospital  designated  by  the  court,  one
     appointed by the court who is not in the full-time service  of  the
     State and one appointed by the court for the accused. This  section
     also requires the Department of Health to compile and keep  a  list
     of psychiatrists who are  prepared  to  conduct  the  inquiries  in
     question, which list must be made available to  the  registrars  of
     all High Courts and clerks of all magistrates' courts.  During  its
     deliberations  on  the  Bill,  as  introduced  in  Parliament,  the
     Committee was requested to consider the insertion of  a  clause  in
     the Bill which is intended to address very real practical  problems
     being  experienced  with  the  application  of  this  section.  The
     Committee was informed that there are very  few  psychiatrists  who
     are willing to  make  themselves  available  for  purposes  of  the
     section, notwithstanding a recent increase in the tariffs  paid  to
     them for their services. The list kept by the Department of  Health
     also seems to be a source of  concern,  the  information  contained
     therein sometimes being outdated. The amendment tabled  before  the
     Committee for consideration was intended to introduce a measure  of
     flexibility in respect of the panel, giving the court a  discretion
     to deviate from having three psychiatrists in  all  serious  cases.
     The Committee, while understanding the urgency of  the  matter,  is
     of the opinion that the Department of  Justice  and  Constitutional
     Development, in conjunction with the relevant role-players,  should
     be requested  to  table  a  report  before  the  Committee  at  the
     earliest opportunity but not later than three months from the  date
     of adoption of this Report, in which the following is included:


     (a)     Information on how often the list referred  to  in  section
          79(9) of the Criminal Procedure Act, 1977, is updated;


     (b)      information  on  the  difficulties  experienced   by   the
          Department of Health in keeping the list;


     (c)     the manner in which  the  difficulties  could  possibly  be
          addressed;


     (d)     the nature of the difficulties experienced by the  National
          Prosecuting Authority in  applying  the  said  section  79  in
          practice;


     (e)     information on section 79 prior to its  amendment  in  1998
          and why the amendments were brought about in that year; and


     (f)     appropriate amending legislation, if necessary,  which  has
          been the subject of proper consultation.


     The Committee is of the view that if amendments do  in  fact  prove
     to be necessary after the above issues have been attended to,  such
     amendments should be promoted as soon as possible, possibly at  the
     beginning of 2004.


 Report to be considered.

                      MONDAY, 10 NOVEMBER 2003

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism:

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 10 November 2003  in  terms
     of Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bill  as  a  section
     75 Bill:


     (i)     Communal Land Rights Bill [B 67 - 2003] (National  Assembly
          - sec 75).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Finance:

 (a)    Convention between the  Government  of  the  Republic  of  South
     Africa and the Government of the Federative Republic of Brazil  for
     the Avoidance of Double  Taxation  and  the  Prevention  of  Fiscal
     Evasion in respect of Taxes on Income, tabled in terms  of  section
     231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (b)    Explanatory Memorandum on the Double Taxation Convention between
     the Republic of South Africa and the Government of  the  Federative
     Republic of Brazil for the Avoidance of  Double  Taxation  and  the
     Prevention of Fiscal Evasion in respect of Taxes on Income.

1. The Minister of Social Development:

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of the Social  Relief  Fund  for
     2002-2003, including the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
     Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 169-2003].


 (b)    Annual Financial Statements of the High School Vorentoe Disaster
     Fund for 2002-2003, including the Report of the Auditor-General  on
     the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 176-2003].

1. The Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

 Report and Financial Statements of State Information Technology  Agency
 (SITA) (Pty) Ltd. for 2002-2003, including the Report of  the  Auditor-
 General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 69-2003].

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 (a)     Replies  from  the  Minister  of  Arts,  Culture,  Science  and
     Technology in regard to the 1st to the 7th reports of the  Standing
     Committee on Public Accounts.


 (b)    Letter dated 7 November 2003, from the Presidency to the Speaker
     of the National Assembly, in  terms  of  section  65(2)(a)  of  the
     Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999),  explaining
     the delay in the tabling of the Annual Report of the Presidency:


     Dear Madam Speaker


     LATE SUBMISSION OF THE ANNUAL REPORT OF THE PRESIDENCY


     Due to various technical problems during the printing process,  the
     submission of the Annual Report of the Presidency  for  tabling  in
     Parliament has been delayed for more than a month.  The  main  (but
     not the only) problem was that  the  printers  initially  delivered
     the report with serious errors in the  design  and  colour  of  the
     cover of the report. The cover then had to be  reprinted,  and  the
     defective covers replaced.


     Kindly accept our apology for the delay.


     Yours sincerely
     Signed


     Essop Pahad
     Minister in the Presidency


 (c)    Letter dated 3  November  2003,  from  the  Minister  of  Social
     Development to the Speaker of the National Assembly,  in  terms  of
     section 65(2)(a) of the Public Finance Management  Act,  1999  (Act
     No 1 of 1999), explaining the delay in the tabling  of  the  Annual
     Report of the National Development Agency for 2002-2003:


     Dear Madam


     EXPLANATION ON THE  LATE  SUBMISSION  AND  TABLING  OF  THE  ANNUAL
     REPORT AND FINANCIAL STATEMENTS OF THE NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT  AGENCY
     (NDA) FOR THE YEAR ENDED 31 MARCH 2003


     The National Development Agency (NDA) is a Public  Entity  that  is
     listed as a Schedule 3A of the Public Finance Management Act,  1999
     (Act No 1 of  1999)  [PFMA]  and  reports  directly  to  me  in  my
     capacity as its Executive Authority.


     In terms of section 65(1)(a) of the PFMA, I am compelled  to  table
     in  the  National  Assembly  the  Annual   Report   and   Financial
     Statements of my department and public entities  reporting  to  me.
     Sub-section  (2)(a)  further  requires  me  to  table   a   written
     explanation in Parliament in circumstances where  I  am  unable  to
     table such reports within six months of the end  of  the  financial
     year (i.e. 30 September 2003), setting out  the  reasons  why  they
     were not tabled.


     In this regard I would like to report that I  am  unable  to  table
     the annual report and audited financial statements of the  NDA  for
     the year ended 31 March 2003 for the following reasons:


     1. The NDA failed to furnish the Auditor-General  with  its  annual
          financial statements by 31 May 2003  as  required  by  section
          55(1)(c) of the PFMA. The financial statements were  initially
          submitted on 30 May 2003 and were found to contain a number of
          errors and were referred back to the management of the NDA for
          correction. The revised statements were submitted on  31  July
          2003  and  still  contained  some  errors.  Consequently,  the
          Auditor-General could not be able to finalise  the  audit  and
          issue  his  Audit  Report.  The  reason  given  by  the  NDA's
          accounting officer was that the Financial Director of the  NDA
          was put on suspension  during  this  critical  period  of  the
          audit.


     2. Following the suspension of the Financial Director, the Head  of
          Internal Audit who was  then  appointed  as  Acting  Financial
          Director also tendered his resignation from the  organisation.
          This was  immediately  followed  by  the  resignation  of  the
          Financial  Manager  who  reports  directly  to  the  Financial
          Director.


     3.  Towards  the  end  of  August  2003,  serious  allegations   of
          financial mismanagement, conflict  of  interests,  impropriety
          and nepotism were leveled against the Chief Executive  Officer
          (CEO) of the NDA. On  account  of  the  seriousness  of  these
          allegations,   I   commissioned   a    preliminary    forensic
          investigation into these allegations under the auspices of the
          Auditor-General's Office.  Preliminary  findings  collaborated
          most of these allegations and I then took the decision to  put
          the CEO  on  precautionary  suspension  with  effect  from  27
          October 2003 to  allow  the  forensic  investigating  team  to
          conduct a detailed forensic audit into these matters.


     I am setting up a  management  team  consisting  of  mainly  senior
     officials  from  my  department,  under  the  supervision  of   the
     Director-General, to go and assist the management  of  the  NDA  in
     bringing back sound management practices in  that  organisation.  I
     expect that the annual report of the NDA  and  its  audited  annual
     financial statements will then be ready for tabling  in  Parliament
     by February 2004.


     King regards,




     Signed


     Dr Z S T Skweyiya, MP
     MINISTER

1. The Speaker:

 Report of Delegation to 6th Session  of  African,  Caribbean,  Pacific-
 European Union Joint Parliamentary Assembly,  Rome,  Italy,  11  to  15
 October 2003.


 The 6th Session of the African, Caribbean, Pacific-European Union Joint
 Parliamentary Assembly (ACP-EU JPA) met in Rome, Italy from  11  to  15
 October 2003. As usual, the joint plenary was preceded by a meeting  of
 the ACP and also of the three Standing Committees  established  at  the
 5th session - on Political Affairs, on  Economic  Development,  Finance
 and Trade and on Social Affairs and  the  Environment.  The  delegation
 consisted of Dr. Rob Davies and Ms Ntshadi Tsheole (ANC) and  Mr  Colin
 Eglin (DA). We were accompanied by Ambassadors Jerry Matjila and  Lenin
 Shope, accredited to the EU and Italy respectively, Mr  Saul  Pelle  of
 the South African Embassy to the EU in Brussels, Ms  Clara  Kiesewetter
 of the  Embassy  in  Rome  and  Mr  Grant  Fredericks  of  Parliament's
 International Relations division.


 The 6th Session was the first to operate according to the new rules  of
 procedure adopted at the fifth session. These provide  for  resolutions
 to be tabled via the Standing Committees with the possibility  of  only
 two "urgent resolutions" per  session  being  tabled  independently  on
 topics agreed  by  the  Joint  Bureau.  The  motivation  for  this  new
 procedure is to encourage the JPA to focus its attention on the  common
 issues of ACP-EU relations, rather than the bilateral issues that  have
 in the past, in practice, dominated JPA proceedings.  The  6th  Session
 was also the first held in Europe to be at the seat of the rotating  EU
 presidency rather than at one of the seats of the  European  Parliament
 (Brussels, Strasbourg or Luxemburg). A proposal to  shift  sessions  to
 the seat of the EU presidency has been on the table for some time,  but
 was given an added impetus following the impasse on the  issue  of  the
 refusal last November by  the  European  Parliament  to  allow  on  its
 premises members of the Zimbabwean delegation on the travel  ban  list,
 who were nevertheless admitted into Belgium on  the  grounds  that  the
 travel  ban  rules  exempt  participants  in  bona  fide  international
 meetings. This issue led to the failure to convene the JPA in  Brussels
 last year, and if it had not been resolved, threatened all  future  JPA
 meetings in Europe. An ACP delegation to Zimbabwe  also  reported  that
 the  Zimbabwe  Speaker  had  agreed  to  appoint  delegations  to  JPAs
 consisting of persons not on the travel ban list (see below).  Minister
 Paul Mangwana (who is on the travel  ban  list)  was  present,  but  as
 "technical advisor" to the delegation comprised of parliamentarians not
 on the list.


 The ACP plenary, apart from  the  routine  business  of  reviewing  the
 agenda of the JPA, dealt with two other matters of substance. The first
 was the tabling of the  report  of  an  ACP  delegation  which  visited
 Zimbabwe in September. This was led by the ACP co-President, Mr  Adrien
 Houngbedji, and included Ms Ntshadi Tsheole. The report indicated  that
 the main aims of the mission were to examine "alongside the authorities
 in Zimbabwe, the situation created following the  cancellation  of  the
 5th JPA session" and  "explore  a  common  strategy  for  ensuring  the
 effective participation of Zimbabwean parliamentarians in the 6th JPA".
 The  mission  was  also  to  "afford  the  delegation  the  opportunity
 [of]_assessing the political and economic situation" in  Zimbabwe.  The
 report concluded, inter alia, that "The present  political  and  social
 problems being experienced by Zimbabwe are,  to  a  large  extent,  the
 result of the agrarian reforms being undertaken  in  the  country_[and]
 sanctions imposed by the EU and other  donors  are  having  an  adverse
 effect on the country's development". The report  also  indicated  that
 "The Speaker of Parliament undertook to adopt the necessary measures to
 ensure that Zimbabwe was henceforth represented by parliamentarians who
 are not blacklisted by the EU, in spite of the sovereign right of  each
 country to determine who should  represent  it  at  JPA  meetings".  It
 furthermore spoke of the ACP mission "paving the way for  a  joint  JPA
 fact-finding mission to Zimbabwe". After some debate, in which somewhat
 different views were expressed, the report was accepted by the  ACP  on
 the understanding that its formal tabling was to  the  ACP  alone.  The
 Joint Bureau, however, agreed that there would be a debate on  Zimbabwe
 in the joint session, although no resolutions would be tabled. The  ACP
 will table an "urgent resolution" on Zimbabwe at the 7th JPA.  Although
 the report was formally tabled only  to  the  ACP,  its  contents  were
 communicated by the co-President to the joint bureau and  it  was  much
 discussed in the debate in the joint session. Most MEPs disagreed  with
 the assertion  that  Zimbabwe's  problems  with  the  EU  fundamentally
 originated in a bilateral disagreement with the former colonial  power,
 Britain, over the latter's reneging on commitments  made  at  Lancaster
 House to support land reform. They argued that the crisis had gone much
 further and was fundamentally a matter of human rights  and  democracy.
 They generally, however, welcomed the idea of a joint mission  provided
 that its terms of reference were acceptable to them. Ms Ntshadi Tsheole
 took the floor for our delegation, arguing that all  major  players  in
 Zimbabwe had committed themselves to a process of dialogue and that the
 role of outsiders was to facilitate and encourage Zimbabweans  to  find
 solutions to the acute problems facing them. Several ACP speakers spoke
 of the challenge being for the EU to find ways to assist  this  process
 and arguing that sanctions and embargoes were the wrong way to go.


 The second substantive issue in the ACP  meeting  was  the  hosting  by
 Ethiopia of the 7th JPA. Eritrea  objected  saying  that  Ethiopia  had
 rejected some of the findings of the boundary commission set  up  after
 the border war between the two countries, despite the provisions of the
 peace agreement that the  commission's  findings  would  be  final  and
 binding. We, along with most other ACP delegations, took the  floor  to
 argue that a meeting of the JPA in Addis Ababa would not mean endorsing
 any position on the boundary commission and that there were no  grounds
 for us to impose an embargo on Ethiopia. The 7th JPA  will  convene  in
 Ethiopia, but the joint bureau agreed to send a mission to  Eritrea  at
 around that time.


 The Standing Committees tabled three reports and resolutions  based  on
 these. The report and resolution of the Political Affairs Committee was
 on the issue of child soldiers, and a feature of the plenary debate  on
 this issue was the participation of Mr Olara Otunnu, the United Nations
 Secretary General's Special Representative.  The  Committee  on  Social
 Affairs  and  the  Environment  tabled  a  report  and  resolution   on
 "Sustainable development and conservation of natural resources  in  ACP
 countries in the framework of the ninth European Development Fund".


 We are full members of the Standing Committee on Economic  Development,
 Finance and Trade  and  participated  in  the  Committee's  meeting  on
 October 11th. The Committee tabled  a  report  and  resolution  on  the
 proposed "budgetisation" of European Development Funds and the  use  of
 funds from  previous  EDFs  that  remain  unspent.  "Budgetisation"  is
 strongly supported by many MEPs on the grounds that  it  would  enhance
 oversight  and  decision-making  by  the   European   Parliament   (and
 potentially lay the ground for oversight by and input from the JPA) and
 also because they believe it  would  offer  a  more  secure  basis  for
 funding  than  the  present  approach   that   depends   on   voluntary
 contributions by individual member states. A minority of MEPs, however,
 are concerned that "budgetisation"  would  subject  EDF  funds  to  the
 "annuality" principle, which means if the  money  is  not  spent  in  a
 particular budget year it is lost, and could also be "raided" for other
 purposes as several budgeted funds  have  been  in  the  past  e.g.  to
 provide funds for Kossovo. The resolution did not take  any  stance  on
 this issue, but rather called for the pros and cons to be laid out  for
 debate at future JPAs. All of this takes place against a background  of
 a debate on unspent EDF funds. Various  estimates  put  the  amount  at
 between 2 and 10 billion Euros. This is not all  allocated  money,  and
 certainly no pot that can be dipped into, but is  reportedly  dampening
 the enthusiasm of EU countries to contribute voluntarily to a 10th EDF.


 In addition, the Economic Development, Finance and Trade Committee  has
 as "work in progress" a report  on  the  Cotonou  Economic  Partnership
 Agreement negotiations.  These  have  now  entered  into  phase  two  -
 negotiations for EPAs with individual regions,  with  opening  sessions
 with West and Central Africa held early in October. The absence of  any
 all ACP-EU agreement at the end of the first phase (September 2003) was
 a cause of some disagreement and tension. A joint  Ministerial  meeting
 held on October 2nd, however, adopted a joint declaration and agreed on
 an all ACP-EU technical monitoring committee to  oversee  regional  EPA
 negotiations and work towards an all ACP-EU agreement at the end of the
 negotiating process - in 2007. We were told that  in  Southern  Africa,
 the negotiating group will  be  SADC  minus  MMZZ  (Mauritius,  Malawi,
 Zambia and Zimbabwe) with the DRC still to decide.  South  Africa  will
 participate fully in the process even though we have  a  separate  TDCA
 with the EU. MMZZ will join the Eastern African (Comesa-led) group. The
 draft Committee report spoke with concern of attempts to suggest that a
 WTO-compatible Free Trade Agreement must cover 90%  of  both  partners'
 trade (We pointed out that the TDCA only covers 85% of our imports). It
 also spoke  of  attempts  by  the  EU  to  "smuggle"  Singapore  issues
 (competition,   government   procurement,    investment    and    trade
 facilitation) into EPA negotiations.


 The Committee also had an opportunity to  exchange  views  on  the  WTO
 Cancun Ministerial meeting. The joint bureau identified Cancun and  its
 implications  for  EPAs  as  one  of  the  two   topics   for   "urgent
 resolutions". The plenary debate on this topic was, however,  not  very
 satisfactory. There were many speakers - too many from the  platform  -
 meaning that parliamentarians  from  the  floor  were  limited  to  two
 minutes. A feature of debates both in the Committee and  on  the  floor
 was an attempt by some EU officials to try to create  distance  between
 the G20 plus and other ACP  countries.  Mr  Adolfo  Urso,  the  Italian
 deputy minister who headed the European Council's delegation to Cancun,
 spoke of the G20  plus  as  an  "anti-thrust"  that  had  adopted  "too
 radical" positions and  "embittered  negotiations"  at  Cancun.  Others
 spoke in more measured tones of  the  G20  plus  not  representing  the
 poorest and it  being  their  concerns  that  should  command  priority
 attention. Several ACP delegations argued  that  the  priority  was  to
 defend preferences. Others,  however,  including  the  EU  co-President
 Glenys Kinnock spoke more positively of the G20 plus as having  changed
 the balance of forces more in favour of developing countries.  We  took
 the floor in the Committee to defend the positive role of the G20  plus
 and to argue that there  could  be  no  return  to  the  old  order  of
 preferences,  that  even  existing  EU   CAP   reforms   would   weaken
 preferences, and that the challenge was  to  defend  the  interests  of
 poorer countries that historically depended on  preferences  on  a  new
 terrain that would also deal with the negative impact  of  subsidies  -
 which, inter alia, were impacting negatively  on  West  African  cotton
 producers. We also took the floor for 2 minutes in the plenary  debate.
 A compromise resolution was drawn up, with ACP input  coming  from  the
 secretariat. As usual a number of amendments were proposed  by  several
 groups. We proposed several that were adopted by the ACP. In the voting
 process, the ACP supported a number of amendments  from  EU  groups  in
 addition to its own and opposed several  from  the  conservative  (EPP)
 group, including on the Singapore issues. This led the EPP to call  for
 a vote by separate houses on the amended resolution after calling in  a
 number of their members who had  not  previously  participated  in  the
 proceedings. The ACP voted unanimously in favour, but  the  motion  was
 lost in the EU house meaning that the JPA failed to pass  a  resolution
 on Cancun and EPAs. Whether this could have been  avoided  by  the  ACP
 engaging more closely with the EPP, and  understanding  more  precisely
 their bottom line, is debatable. However, it is perhaps  an  indication
 of the distance between the ACP and the largest group in  the  European
 Parliament on, inter alia, the Singapore issues,  despite  attempts  to
 suggest that  the  EU  and  ACP  have  common  interests  in  rejecting
 pressures that would weaken preferences.


 The other "urgent topic" was  West  Africa,  where  the  focus  was  on
 Liberia, Ivory Coast and  Guinea-Bissau.  After  some  amendments,  the
 resolution on this matter was adopted by a large majority.


 In addition to the topics on the agenda, the bureau also  agreed  to  a
 debate on the International Criminal  Court,  particularly  to  express
 concern at attempts by the US to threaten to withdraw aid funds  unless
 recipients agree to exempt US citizens from the ICC. We took the  floor
 to speak in favour of the ICC and against US pressure in this regard.


 We also tabled two written questions - one to the ACP Council  and  the
 other to the Commission. The co-President, however, allowed  follow  up
 questions on the  Commissioner's  statement  to  take  precedence  over
 follow ups to written questions.


 There are a number of changes in the ACP leadership  of  the  JPA.  The
 term of office of the co-President ended at the conclusion of  the  6th
 JPA. On the principle of rotation, the co-Presidency for the  next  two
 years will be held by the Caribbean region. That region agreed that  Mr
 Sardjoe from Surinam will serve for one year, and Ms  Hay-Webster  from
 Jamaica for the second  year.  The  Southern  African  region's  bureau
 representatives were also rotated. On the  basis  of  the  alphabetical
 rotation, South Africa will replace Mozambique and serve for two years.


 The Bureau and the Committees are due  to  meet  in  Brussels  in  mid-
 January, and the 7th JPA in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia,  provisionally  from
 16-19 February 2004. The reason for the earlier than usual convening of
 the 7th JPA is that there  will  be  elections  for  the  new  enlarged
 European Parliament shortly thereafter.




 Signed


 Rob Davies   Ntshadi Tsheole  Colin Eglin

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organised Crime, dated 5 November 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organised Crime, referred to it, recommends that the House -

   1. approve the said Convention in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution;

   2. confirm that the Director-General of the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, to whom foreign requests for assistance in terms of section 7 of the International Co- operation in Criminal Matters Act, 1996 (Act No. 75 of 1996), is submitted, be designated as the South African Central Authority to receive requests for mutual legal assistance in terms of article 18(13) of the Convention. In addition, approve that requests shall be made in the English language as provided for in article 18(14) of the Convention; and

   3. approve that the Republic of South Africa, in line with her previous position, when ratifying United Nations multilateral treaties, enter a reservation against the compulsory jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) with regard to settlement of disputes arising out of the interpretation or application of the Convention as provided for in article 35(3) of the Convention. The Republic of South Africa does not recognise the compulsory jurisdiction of the ICJ as provided for in article 36 of the Statute of the ICJ.

      The reservation, in line with our previous position stated above, has been formulated as follows:

        "Pending a decision by the Government of the  Republic  of
        South  Africa  on  the  compulsory  jurisdiction  of   the
        International Court of  Justice,  the  Government  of  the
        Republic does not consider itself bound by  the  terms  of
        article 35(2) of the Convention  which  provides  for  the
        compulsory jurisdiction  of  the  International  Court  of
        Justice in differences arising out of  the  interpretation
        or  application  of  the  Convention.  The  Republic  will
        adhere to the position  that,  for  the  submission  of  a
        particular dispute for  settlement  by  the  International
        Court, the consent of all the parties to  the  dispute  is
        required in every individual case.".
      

 Request to be considered.

1. First Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish Trafficking in Persons, especially Women and Children, supplementing the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organised Crime, dated 5 November 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish Trafficking in Persons, especially Women and Children, supplementing the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organised Crime, referred to it, recommends that the House -

   1. approve the said Protocol in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution; and

   2. approve that the Republic of South Africa, in line with her previous position, when ratifying United Nations multilateral treaties, enter a reservation against the compulsory jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) with regard to settlement of disputes arising out of the interpretation or application of the Protocol as provided for in article 15(3) of the Protocol. The Republic of South Africa does not recognise the compulsory jurisdiction of the ICJ as provided for in article 36 of the Statute of the ICJ.

      The reservation, in line with our previous position stated above, has been formulated as follows:

        "Pending a decision by the Government of the  Republic  of
        South  Africa  on  the  compulsory  jurisdiction  of   the
        International Court of  Justice,  the  Government  of  the
        Republic does not consider itself bound by  the  terms  of
        article 15(2) of  the  Protocol  which  provides  for  the
        compulsory jurisdiction  of  the  International  Court  of
        Justice in differences arising out of  the  interpretation
        or  application  of  the  Convention.  The  Republic  will
        adhere to the position  that,  for  the  submission  of  a
        particular dispute for  settlement  by  the  International
        Court, the consent of all the parties to  the  dispute  is
        required in every individual case.".
      

 Request to be considered.

1. Second Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish Trafficking in Persons, especially Women and Children, supplementing the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organised Crime, dated 5 November 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, when considering the request for approval by Parliament of the Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish Trafficking in Persons, especially Women and Children, supplementing the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organised Crime, referred to it, noted that at present there is no current legislation to deal with the criminalisation of the trafficking in persons in terms of article 5 of the said Protocol.

   Therefore, the Committee recommends that the House approve that Government responds as to the action that is being taken to comply with the obligations dealing with the criminalisation of the trafficking in persons as required in terms of the said Protocol, within three months of the passing of this resolution.

 Report to be considered.

1. First Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Protocol against the Smuggling of Migrants by Land, Sea and Air, supplementing the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organised Crime, dated 5 November 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Protocol against the Smuggling of Migrants by Land, Sea and Air, supplementing the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organised Crime, referred to it, recommends that the House -

   1. approve the said Protocol in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution;

   2. approve that the Director-General of the Department of Transport be designated as an authority to receive and respond to requests for assistance. In addition, approve that the Director-General of the Department of Transport will be complemented by the South African Maritime Safety Authority (SAMSA), the Department of Home Affairs, the South African Police Service and the South African National Defence Force; and

   3. approve that the Republic of South Africa, in line with her previous position, when ratifying United Nations multilateral treaties, enter a reservation against the compulsory jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) with regard to settlement of disputes arising out of the interpretation or application of the Protocol as provided for in article 20(3) of the Protocol. The Republic of South Africa does not recognise the compulsory jurisdiction of the ICJ as provided for in article 36 of the Statute of the ICJ.

      The reservation, in line with our previous position stated above, has been formulated as follows:

        "Pending a decision by the Government of the  Republic  of
        South  Africa  on  the  compulsory  jurisdiction  of   the
        International Court of  Justice,  the  Government  of  the
        Republic does not consider itself bound by  the  terms  of
        article 20(2) of  the  Protocol  which  provides  for  the
        compulsory jurisdiction  of  the  International  Court  of
        Justice in differences arising out of  the  interpretation
        or  application  of  the  Convention.  The  Republic  will
        adhere to the position  that,  for  the  submission  of  a
        particular dispute for  settlement  by  the  International
        Court, the consent of all the parties to  the  dispute  is
        required in every individual case.".
      

 Request to be considered.

1. Second Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Protocol against the Smuggling of Migrants by Land, Sea and Air, supplementing the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organised Crime, dated 5 November 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Protocol against the Smuggling of Migrants by Land, Sea and Air, supplementing the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organised Crime, referred to it, noted that at present there is no current legislation to deal with the criminalisation of the smuggling of migrants in terms of article 6 of the said Protocol.

   Therefore, the Committee recommends that the House approve that Government responds as to the action that is being taken to comply with the obligations dealing with the criminalisation of the smuggling of migrants as required in terms of the said Protocol, within three months of the passing of this resolution. Report to be considered.

2. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Protocol against the Illicit Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, their Parts and Components and Ammunition, supplementing the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organised Crime, dated 5 November 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Protocol against the Illicit Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, their Parts and Components and Ammunition, supplementing the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organised Crime, referred to it, recommends that the House -

   1. approve the said Protocol in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution;

   2. approve that the National Commissioner of the South African Police Service be designated to liaise with other States Parties on matters relating to the Protocol as required by article 13(2) of the said Protocol; and

   3. approve that the Republic of South Africa, in line with her previous position, when ratifying United Nations multilateral treaties, enter a reservation against the compulsory jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) with regard to settlement of disputes arising out of the interpretation or application of the Protocol as provided for in article 16(3) of the Protocol. The Republic of South Africa does not recognise the compulsory jurisdiction of the ICJ as provided for in article 36 of the Statute of the ICJ.

      The reservation, in line with our previous position stated above, has been formulated as follows:

        "Pending a decision by the Government of the  Republic  of
        South  Africa  on  the  compulsory  jurisdiction  of   the
        International Court of  Justice,  the  Government  of  the
        Republic does not consider itself bound by  the  terms  of
        article 16(2) of  the  Protocol  which  provides  for  the
        compulsory jurisdiction  of  the  International  Court  of
        Justice in differences arising out of  the  interpretation
        or  application  of  the  Convention.  The  Republic  will
        adhere to the position  that,  for  the  submission  of  a
        particular dispute for  settlement  by  the  International
        Court, the consent of all the parties to  the  dispute  is
        required in every individual case.".
       Request to be considered.
      
                TUESDAY, 11 NOVEMBER 2003
      

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism:

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 10 November 2003  in  terms
     of Joint Rule 160(4), classified the following Bill  as  a  section
     76 Bill:


     (i)      Traditional  Health  Practitioners  Bill  [B  66  -  2003]
          (National Assembly - sec 76)

1. Introduction of Bills:

 (1)    The Minister of Social Development:
     (i)     Children's Bill [B 70 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec  75)
          [Explanatory  summary  of  Bill  and  prior  notice   of   its
          introduction published in Government Gazette No  25346  of  13
          August 2003.]


     Introduction and referral to  the  Portfolio  Committee  on  Social
     Development of the National Assembly, as well as  referral  to  the
     Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of  Joint
     Rule 160, on 12 November 2003.


          NOTE:
          The  Portfolio  Committee  on  Social  Development  has   been
          instructed by the Speaker in terms of National  Assembly  Rule
          249(3)(c) to consult the Portfolio Committee  on  Justice  and
          Constitutional Development, the Joint Monitoring Committee  on
          Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of  Children,  Youth
          and Disabled Persons and any other committee that has a direct
          interest in the substance of the Bill.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the  classification  of
     the Bill may be submitted to  the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism  (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Education:

 Report and Financial Statements of  the  Council  on  Higher  Education
 (CHE) for 2002-2003, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
 Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 120-2003].

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 Report of the Public Protector on An Investigation into Allegations  of
 Impropriety in connection with the Sale by  the  Department  of  Public
 Works to Ms Z Mbeki of Erf 1432, Summerstrand, Port Elizabeth.


 Copies of this report  are  also  available  on  Parliament's  website:
 http://www.parliament.gov.za

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry on the Liquor Bill [B 23D - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 76), dated 11 November 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry, having considered the Liquor Bill [B 23D - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 76), amended by the National Council of Provinces and referred to the Committee, reports that it has rejected Clause 6(2) of the Bill.

 Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and Technology on the Membership to the Statutes of the International Centre for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology, dated 11 November 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and Technology, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Membership to the Statutes of the International Centre for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Membership.

 Request to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and Technology on the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Protocol on Culture, Information and Sport, dated 11 November 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and Technology, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Protocol on Culture, Information and Sport, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Protocol.

 Request to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Protocol on Southern African Development (SADC) Tribunal, dated 11 November 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Protocol on Southern African Development (SADC) Tribunal, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Protocol.

 Request to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Agreement amending the Protocol on Southern African Development (SADC) Tribunal, dated 11 November 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Agreement amending the Protocol on Southern African Development (SADC) Tribunal, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Agreement.

 Request to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism on the National Environmental Management Amendment Bill [B 29 - 2003] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76), dated 11 November 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism, having considered the subject of the National Environmental Management Amendment Bill [B 29 - 2003] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 76 Bill, reports the Bill without amendment.