WEDNESDAY, 25 JUNE 2003 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:02.

The Chairperson of Committees took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

QUESTIONS AND REPLIES - see that book.

                          NEW MODEL OF MACE

                           (Announcement)

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Members will notice that we have an additional item on the floor of the House. This is a model of the new mace for the National Assembly. Members and the public are invited to make their comments on the model. The model will be displayed outside the Chamber when the House adjourns for members to view. A comment book will also be available for members to make an input.

REPORT REQUESTED ON APPOINTMENT OF INSPECTOR GENERAL OF INTELLIGENCE

                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, I move the draft resolution printed in his name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That, notwithstanding the resolution adopted on 16 April 2003, the House requests the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence to report to the House on the appointment of the Inspector General of Intelligence on or before 1 September 2003.

Agreed to.

                NATIONAL ROAD TRAFFIC AMENDMENT BILL
                       (Second Reading debate)

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chair, I want to take this opportunity to thank the Speaker, the Deputy Speaker, the Speaker’s Office, the Chair, Deputy Chair and all hon members for the good wishes, the prayers and the support that I have received. Thank you very much to all of you. [Applause.] I am not quite out of the woods yet, but I think I am fit enough to begin to resume my duties incrementally, so thank you for this opportunity.

I rise to introduce the National Road Traffic Amendment Bill. You will recall that on 30 April this year, driving licences contained in identity documents ceased to be valid driving licences. At the time of the deadline, an estimated 800 000 people had not converted to the CCF licences. The implication of the deadline is that driving licences contained in identity documents are, from 1 May 2003, no longer deemed to be valid driving licences.

Persons who did not convert their driving licences contained in identity documents do not have driving licences any longer. They will have to go through the entire process of applying for a learners’ licence, doing the K53 driving test and obtaining fresh driving licences.

Members will also recall that in Government Notice 336 of 2003, special exemptions are granted to persons who could not apply during 1 March 1998 to 30 April 2003 to convert their driving licences contained in identity documents.

The Bill under discussion addresses the problems that we faced during the conversion period. Section 18(6) of the National Road Traffic Act is relevant, and authorises the Minister to determine a date on which a driving licence contained in an identity document shall cease to be a valid driving licence. That provision does not empower the Minister to extend the period determined, neither does the provision allow the Minister to make exemptions.

It is in view of these problems that the Bill before the House proposes the following amendments. Clause 1(a) of the Bill caters for several categories of persons who were unable to convert their driving licences contained in identity documents to the prescribed driving licence format within the prescribed time periods. These categories are persons on missions or assignments in overseas countries, persons incarcerated during the period in which they were required to convert, persons on contract of employment outside the borders of the Republic and full-time students at foreign academic institutions.

Clause 1(a) of the Bill provides for a window period to enable persons to convert their driving licences to the credit card format before being liable for penalties for not being in possession in a driving licence in the prescribed format.

Clause 1(b) amends the Act to provide for the date after which driving licences contained in identity documents and those that are not so contained shall be deemed not to be driving licences in terms of the Act. The Bill empowers the Minister to set different dates for different classes of persons to substitute their driving licences and also to set different dates for persons holding different types of driving licences to substitute the driving licences.

Clause 2 of the Bill caters for persons who acquired their driving licences from the former TBVC states and self-governing territories and who could not convert because their records were only available at those offices in their so-called self-governing territories, or TBVC states, or because those offices no longer exist. The Bill empowers the Minister to set a different date for such persons to convert their licences. The Bill seeks to regularise and rationalise the process of conversion to the CCF driving licence.

I want to conclude by thanking the portfolio committee for its work. I also want to thank the Acting Minister, who cannot be here today, who has been so very good as to stand in for me and will continue to do so for some time. But, more importantly, we often focus on those who have not converted their licences and we forget that between 4 and 5 million people have actually, over the period of five years, converted their licences to the credit card format. [Applause.]

I want to say a special word of thanks to those millions who have actually taken the trouble to convert their licences and to say that we appreciate their sacrifices, and that the time they spent and the effort that they have made are all appreciated by Government. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr J P CRONIN: Thank you, Chairperson. It’s wonderful, Minister, to have you back here, but also participating actively. It is really wonderful. We are very pleased to have you.

As you said, we have all been required to convert our driving licences from the old format to the new credit card format. I think we are all aware of that; it received a lot of media attention. The deadline to complete this process ended just two months ago and I would also like to add my word to the Minister’s and, on behalf of the committee, express our thanks to all of those drivers - and there were, as the Minister has told us, 4 to 5 million drivers - who converted their licences in good time. We would also like to thank all of the traffic department officials who often worked very long hours to clear backlogs and who sometimes had to deal with long and impatient queues.

The fact that the national Department of Transport had to shift the final deadline is an indication that there are still many South Africans who do not take their responsibilities as citizens seriously. The conversion of licences isn’t just a bureaucratic process. It is designed to help all of us. We want to ensure that the system of licensing is clean. We want to have a format that enables traffic officers to accurately and rapidly verify a driver’s licence. Those who drive around on our roads with illegal licences are a threat to themselves, they are a threat to their passengers and they are a threat to all who are using our roads. We know that the great majority of South Africans agree with this perspective and we support Government’s initiative to get a clean licensing system.

In terms of the National Road Traffic Act, we are also required to renew our credit card driving licences on a regular basis. If we comply on time, then it should be a fairly simple process. It, too, is designed to ensure that the records are up to date and that we are still competent to drive in terms of eyesight and other issues like that. This is quite a normal practice in most countries and, again, it makes a lot of sense.

As the Minister has said, in the course of the conversion process, moving from the ID format to the credit card format, a number of problems cropped up. We discovered in particular that there were people who were for good reason simply not able to make the conversion in good time. There were soldiers, for instance, who were posted to Burundi and places like that and who were unable, therefore, in some cases to meet the deadline. There are South African diplomats serving in foreign countries. There were people admitted to hospital for long periods who were unable to meet the deadline and there are also people serving prison sentences.

Then we also discovered that there was another problem, and that many licence holders from the former Transkei, Bophuthatswana, Ciskei and Venda entities found that conversion was difficult, because - as the Minister said - their records were held in the particular office at which they received it and were not on the national computing system. Now this is a small matter, a technical matter that must be addressed and will be addressed, but it makes sense to allow them more time to effect a conversion.

In all of these cases the national department and its provincial counterparts went ahead with allowing a certain flexibility and we certainly supported them in applying this flexibility to the public.

However, there were concerns, of course, that somewhere someone might challenge this flexibility. We are living - and we are glad to be living here - in a constitutionally governed country, and someone might say, “Well, how can you apply a flexibility here when you did not apply it to me?” So we thought, and the department thought, that it was important to entrench in law a certain degree of flexibility - well-defined flexibility

• to enable this to happen.

So, in the Bill that was first brought to our committee the categories that we have mentioned already were recognised as categories in which there could be a postponement of the deadline: people posted overseas by Government, people in hospitals for a long period of time, people serving prison sentences and also those with the anomaly of the TBVC licences.

When we discussed the draft Bill that we had in front of us in the portfolio committee, a number of colleagues raised other categories of people who should be covered, in particular the case of South Africans not posted by Government, but on private business, working on contract in foreign countries, or South African students who are studying abroad.

I am sure Mr Farrow would say that despite my crazy economic policies I sometimes have good intentions. Well, I would like to return the compliment. Despite the crazy economic policies of his party, Mr Farrow actually contributed constructively to helping us with this and drafted a formulation which we all accepted. [Interjections.] I’ll come to that in a moment. So we agreed to extend the exemptions to South Africans who are working on contract abroad and to South African students studying abroad as well. Obviously it is not an unlimited extension. Within six months of returning to the country or coming out of prison or hospital, you would then - within those six months - have to renew your licence.

This amendment, by the way, also makes very clear that failure to renew a licence will result in having to reapply for a driving licence afresh, going through the required tests and so on. So it is important to do this.

Finally, in our hearings, our attention was drawn to a couple of matters which we didn’t feel should be put into the Bill as such, but which are practical matters which we think should be addressed. The first one, if you take a look at your credit card format drivers’ licence - and I am one of the compliers - you will see that the only date that appears on it is the date of its issue. Apparently this has caused some problems, in insurance cases, we understand, and also in people staying abroad and trying to hire a car and being told, “Well, in terms of your licence we see you have only been driving for three or four weeks, and therefore you are a novice driver”, and therefore there are particular liabilities, and more expensive arrangements and so on.

What we have said to the department is that it is a simple matter of indicating the date on which we actually qualified originally and not the date on which we substituted licences. That date is in the system, but it is not reflected on the credit card that we have and we have asked the department please to correct that. In future, credit cards will reflect the date on which we qualified as drivers. They have undertaken to do that and we would like to remind them to do that.

The second matter, which is probably a more complicated matter, relates to the large number of people who have not converted their licences. Some may well have done that out of just being lazy or not seeing their duties as citizens as being important, but we do think there are many people - I have encountered cases - who simply couldn’t afford to make the conversion. It was literally a financial matter. We have also picked up that the charge varies quite enormously between one province and another, and so we would ask the department to look into this matter so that where there are really deserving financial cases … Sometimes you find people whose profession is driving, but they are not earning very much and they battle actually to make the substitution and failure to convert means that they actually lose their jobs as well.

With those additional practical matters, the ANC supports this Bill. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mr S B FARROW: Thank you, Chairperson. I would also like to wish the Minister well. It is good to see you back at this podium leading the Transport debate again. We wish you well.

The Bill before us came about as a result of the High Court ruling relating to a prisoner who, as a result of his incarceration, was unable to comply with the conversion of his drivers’ licence to the credit card format. The department also realised that there was a need to accommodate TBVC licences which could not be captured on the system as well as drivers’ licences not yet converted in respect of Government employees on foreign missions and assignments.

The Bill now legitimises these categories and the Minister will now fix a date in the Gazette whereby these motorists will be able to convert, subject obviously to adequate proof. This is a most commendable process, but, on scrutiny of the Bill, the DA felt that this could not be done by excluding other categories of motorists, who for reasons of employment or studies outside the borders of South Africa, could also lay similar claims for having been unable to convert by the cut-off date.

The DA felt that the exclusion of these two categories of motorists would be deemed to be unfair, in some way discriminatory or, for that matter, unconstitutional. And the question was asked: Why should only Government employees on missions and assignments abroad or persons in state institutions benefit from this extension? Chairperson, I must say that in putting forward these proposals for amendment, I was met with understanding and full co-operation by members of the portfolio committee, and I would like to thank them again for that. It is this sort of co-operation, I believe, that bodes well for our multiparty democracy; even more so when the other side of the coin is put forward by the DA in debates in this House.

The problem, however, of the tiresome and often troublesome conversion of credit card format licences does not stop here. There still remains the problem associated with the renewal and my colleague has given us some sort of background to that. As the House is aware, motorists now have to renew their licences every five years. This in itself is facing similar problems as experienced with the conversions. The DA strongly believes that many of those approximately one million motorists who never converted and now have to redo their licences will no doubt put additional pressure on the licence and testing stations. With present capacity, this will again cause undue and unnecessary delays.

Many of those motorists who did not convert were motorists who could not afford the cost of converting. Presently, and I talk from experience, if a motorist needs to apply for renewal, the costs incurred are approximately R100, depending on the province, at least R30 for additional photographs - both the renewal and temporary licence - and this R42 licence that I am showing you here.

This is all very costly and there is also the process of queueing, travelling, taking time to have the photographs taken, fingerprinting and verification, as well as the issue of this temporary licence. In some cases, it might not be a problem. But to others of us it is, because those who cannot get time off from work or people that are in one-man businesses do have this difficulty and I think we need to look at a process whereby we can go and speed the thing up as quickly as possible. I believe that, surely, these processes can be speeded up, and we also need to investigate how one can accommodate motorists who generally could not and cannot afford to convert or renew their licences, or, for that matter, whether this temporary licence is really necessary, once a licence has been verified.

In other countries this service is provided free of charge and I am not by any means suggesting that we go the socialist route that my colleague, the hon Cronin, was talking about earlier, but certainly, we need to look at how we can actually cut the cost of this. [Interjections.] Having said that, there is now an urgent need for the department to keep the public informed about these amendments, and clearly an extensive communication campaign needs to be launched at home here and also through embassies abroad, in order for these people to be told about how to go about this process. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr E J LUCAS: Mr Chairman, hon Minister, we are pleased to have you back and hope you will soon be behind the wheel.

Just a few months ago, we witnessed the large-scale confusion and indeed chaos when motorists had to convert their ID-based drivers’ licences to the new card format. This chaos came against the background of at least two extensions of the deadline for conversion and a five-year period of grace in which to do this. Of course, it also went accompanied by mostly unfair public accusation against Government and the Department of Transport. These accusations were probably to be expected in the light of the fact that South Africans of all walks of life seemed to have very little regard for the laws and regulations of the country. Road safety is one such area where lawlessness has been the order of the day. For many years, our accident rate and death and injury statistics have underwritten the situation. The new credit card drivers’ licence will soon have two immediate benefits: Firstly, its use will remove thousands of illegal and forged drivers’ licences in ID books from circulation. Secondly, it will allow for the implementation of points-based systems that will assist our traffic authorities in better law enforcement. There can be little, if any, argument against the necessity for such a type of licence. Of course there were extenuating circumstances where certain licensed drivers could not convert in the allocated period and during the extension period.

The Bill before us addresses the fact by enabling the Minister to allow four categories of licensees to convert their old ID licences to the new type of licence within a period of six months from either returning to South Africa or being discharged from medical or correctional facilities. This is an eminently reasonable decision by Government and should be supported.

The Bill also contains a disappointment for drivers who have not converted or will not convert their old licences in the allocated period. The old licences will be deemed invalid and then they will have to go through the entire process of obtaining drivers’ licences again as if it was their first application.

Government will no doubt come in for heavy criticism for this decision and there is every possibility that the matter might even be taken up in a court of law. Whatever the outcome, the IFP feels this is a sound decision based on the country’s needs and our national interests. In this particular case, national interest means reducing the number of deaths and injuries on our roads, as well as enabling authorities to effectively enforce the country’s traffic laws. The IFP supports the Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr J J NIEMANN: Mnr die Voorsitter, Minister, ek wil my aansluit by die ander wat goeie wense uitgespreek het en u terugverwelkom. Dis werklik wonderlik dat u ‘n tweede geleentheid gekry het om u nooienstoespraak te hou. Dit is baie min van ons beskore om dit te kan doen. Ek sê vir jou: Welkom terug, en ek is bly u is terug. Dit is ook ‘n besonderse geleentheid vir my vanmiddag om hier te staan, want ek kry net twee minute om te praat en dan word ek stilgemaak. En nou kom die Voorsitter en hy sê vir my: “Jy het beseringstyd van een minuut bygekry.” Baie dankie. Dis fantasties dat ‘n ou ‘n minuut in hierdie plek bykry.

Ons het gehoor wie in hierdie wet ingesluit word en wie uitgesluit word. Die Nuwe NP het dit gesteun, maar ons het so ‘n knop in die keel, want ek dink daar is een groep wat ons gepleit het ingesluit moet word wat nie ingesluit is nie. Hier word voorsiening gemaak vir alle mense wat op kontrak is vir die staat in die buiteland; studente, soldate in die Kongo of Burundi, hulle kan terugkom en dadelik geakkommodeer word en lisensies kan aan hulle toegeken word.

Maar die mense wat geëmigreer het, wat drie of vier jaar reeds in die buiteland is of was en nou antwoord op die oproep van die President, wat hierdie mense nooi om terug te kom na Suid-Afrika toe om te help om die nuwe land en nuwe nasie te bou - om verskeie redes, want ons het hulle kundigheid en vaardigheid nodig - daardie mense word uitgesluit. Ek dink werklikwaar u moet uit u pad gaan om dit moontlik te maak, want daar is derduisende van dié mense wat uitgesluit is, veral in die lig van die President se versoek en die Regering se versoek: Asseblief, kom terug na Suid-Afrika toe. Ons plaas ‘n belemmering op daardie mense. Sodra hy hier kom, mag hy nie in sy eie voertuig klim en ry om, argumentshalwe, werk te gaan soek nie. U mag sê dit is ‘n bietjie erg, maar ek dink dit grens aan erge diskriminasie, en ek wil graag by u pleit dat u hierdie saak in die reine sal bring. Dít sal dit ook vir daardie mense wat ons wil hê moet terugkom, moontlik maak om terug te kom en ook dadelik te kan aansoek doen om ‘n lisensie, wat hulle reeds het, maar nie kan gebruik nie. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr J J NIEMANN: Mr Chairman, Minister, I wish to concur with the wishes of goodwill as expressed by others and welcoming you back. It is truly wonderful that you have been granted a second opportunity to deliver your maiden speech. Very few of us are afforded that privilege. I say to you: Welcome back, and I am glad that you are back.

It is also a special occasion for me to be standing here this afternoon, as I only have two minutes to speak and then I shall be silenced. And now the chairperson comes along and tells me that I have been granted one minute of injury time. Thank you very much. It is fantastic that a guy can get an additional minute in this place.

We have heard whom have been included in this act and who are excluded. The New NP has supported it, but we have a lump in our throat, because I think there is one group whose inclusion we have begged here, and they are not included. Provision has been made here for all persons abroad that are contracted to the state: students, soldiers in the Congo or Burundi - can return and be accommodated immediately and licences can be issued to them.

But those that have emigrated, who have already been and still are abroad for three or four years and are now heeding the call of the President, who is inviting these people to come back to South Africa to help in the building of a new country and a new nation - for various reasons, because we need their expertise and skills - those people are excluded. I really think you have to go out of your way to make it possible, because thousands of these people are excluded - particularly in the light of the President’s request and the request of the Government: Please return to South Africa. We are encumbering those people. As soon as he arrives, he may not climb into a vehicle of his own to drive around, say, for the sake of argument, to seek employment. You may say that this is somewhat severe, but I think it borders on profound discrimination, and I want to plead to you to resolve this matter. This will also make it possible for those people whom we want to return, to return and apply immediately for a licence, which they already have, but cannot use. I thank you.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, hon Minister, a very warm word of welcome. May you be blessed with continued health and strength, and may you be with us for a long time.

A lot of controversy surrounded the issue of the new card drivers’ licence system. Accommodation, though, was made for the many drivers who had failed to transfer from the old licence to the new card system. The MF did have some reservations about the cost of the change that drivers incurred. Just attaining a licence is costly these days and though the change to the new card systems has its benefits, it has been costly.

Concern is also expressed about South Africans abroad who, on their return, are refused these renewals and need to undergo new tests. This is not only costly and inconvenient, but these persons have taken the necessary steps to attain the original drivers’ licence and should be accommodated in this regard.

The MF, however, supports the department’s efforts to make travelling safer for all. The provisions and amendments made in this Bill are adequate. The MF supports the National Road Traffic Amendment Bill.

Chairperson, I want to thank hon Jeremy Cronin for bringing to the attention of the House the fact that when you go to obtain this licence, you will find that it is registered only from the day it is issued. I have been a driver for 32 years and, on that licence of mine, it says that I have only been driving from 2000. I have 32 years of driving experience without a black mark against my licence. I am a very safe driver. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mnr C AUCAMP: Agb Voorsitter, ek wil ook graag die Minister hartlik terugverwelkom. Ons is saam met hom dankbaar dat hy weer sy pligte op hierdie manier kan hervat. Ons hoop ook die bietjie grys hare wat deurkom, gaan binnekort weer donker en swart wees soos altyd. Sterkte vir u. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr C AUCAMP: Hon Chairperson, I would also sincerely like to welcome back the Minister. We are thankful with him that he can resume his tasks in this manner. We hope that the few grey hairs appearing will soon be dark and black again as always. All of the best for you.]

The hon Cronin started his speech by saying that everyone had to convert. I thought he was speaking about converting from Communism to capitalism but it seems to me I was mistaken. It’s about licences. [Laughter.]

To drive a car is a right and not a privilege. But to drive a car on a public road is a privilege. When driving on a public road you enter the public domain. And for that you need a permit. Therefore I want to appeal to the public to co-operate in this. It is not a right to drive on a public road. You need a permit from those to whom those roads belong.

There is an example in this Bill of unforeseen consequences of the original legislation and, indeed, this Bill corrects those unforeseen consequences. Therefore we support it.

The National Action appeals to Government: There are other laws as well with unforeseen consequences, for instance, the labour laws. Please, do the same with those laws and fix their unforeseen consequences.

Ons stem saam met die verteenwoordigers van die DA en die Nuwe NP dat dit nie net diegene is wat vir die staat werk wat in die buiteland is wat hierdie reg moet kry om spesiaal hul lisensies te kan hernieu nie. Die feit dat jy vir die staat werk, gee jou geen addisionele reg bo iemand wat nie vir die staat werk wanneer dit kom by die gebruik van publieke geriewe soos paaie nie. As ons hierdie saak ook kan regstel, sal ons daaroor verheug wees. Die Nasionale Aksie steun graag hierdie wetgewing. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[We agree with the representatives of the DA and the New NP that it is not only those who work for the Government who are abroad who should be given this special right to renew their licences. The fact that you work for the Government does not give you additional rights above someone who does not work for the Government when it comes to the use of public amenities such as roads. If we could rectify this matter as well, we will be very happy about it. The National Action has pleasure in supporting this legislation. I thank you.]

Mr A R AINSLIE: Thank you, Chairperson. For a minute I thought I had been elevated to a very high station, but it was very short-lived. Thank you very much. Chairperson, Minister, it’s a great pleasure to see you once again in the driving seat, even if it is as co-driver. It is an absolute pleasure to see you here this afternoon.

Chairperson, the National Road Traffic Amendment Bill makes a very valuable contribution to the road safety programme. I need hardly remind members that South Africa has a very high accident rate. There are, on average, 512 000 motor vehicle accidents each year, with enormous social and economic costs. The economic costs alone of our high accident rate have been estimated to be in the region of R13 million each year. But how do you quantify the human costs? How do you attach value to the loss of loved ones to motor vehicle accidents? There is no value that one can put on the loss of loved ones to motor vehicle accidents.

This amendment boosts one of the core elements of our strategy to promote safety on our roads: driver fitness. It is the drivers’ licence which reflects whether a driver is fit to drive or not; whether he or she is technically competent; whether he or she is physically competent. It is essential for law enforcement, therefore, that the drivers’ licence and licensing are beyond reproach. To achieve these objectives, all drivers are required to convert their licences from the old format to the new credit card format, and failure to convert to the new licence will lead to those affected having to reapply for a drivers’ licence. They will have to complete the whole exercise of learning how to drive once again - from the learners’ licence all the way to the actual drivers’ licence.

During the conversion process it became very apparent that, for reasons beyond their control, there were people who could not meet the conversion deadline. These people fell into five broad categories. Firstly, there were people admitted to a medical facility or detained in a state institution, and examples have already been given by previous speakers and I won’t go into that. Secondly, there were those posted by the Government on a foreign mission or assignment, and Mr Cronin gave the example of those of our members in the SANDF who have been posted to Burundi and other areas as peacekeepers. Thirdly, there were those on contract of employment outside the borders of South Africa. Fourthly, there were full-time students at foreign academic institutions, and fifthly, those licence holders from the former so-called TBVC states.

The amendment before us today brings much needed clarity to the whole question of licences, because, in terms of the Bill, the Minister is empowered to postpone the conversion or renewal of the licences of all five categories I have referred to. But, it is important that we do not lose sight of the reasons that the Minister has advanced on previous occasions for the conversion to the new credit card format. There are a number of significant advantages that the new licence has over the old ID-type licence. And at this point I would have liked to put my hand in my pocket and draw out my licence and flash it around as the hon Cronin has done, and as Mr Farrow did earlier on, but I discovered I don’t have it with me.

The old licence had virtually no security features and could easily be forged. The new licence has state-of-the-art security features. It is very difficult to forge and there are no successful forgeries in circulation. These security features include machine-readable technology, which will make it possible, for example, for traffic officers at the roadside to verify the identity of the driver and his or her competence to drive. This is very advanced technology and South Africa will be one of the few countries in the world using it.

The licence also incorporates fully automated fingerprint technology. Over the past five years, the Department of Transport has collected more than seven million fingerprint records of drivers. These fingerprints have been matched and verified automatically. The credit card format drivers’ licence was introduced mainly to eliminate the issuing of fraudulent licences. And since its introduction, over one million licences have been removed from the system.

The new licence is also fully compliant with SADC and international standards. Then there was also the question of the time it took to have a licence included in one’s identity document. Often, it took up to six months for that to happen. The new credit card format licence is produced within eight weeks of application. And what about convenience? Paper-type licences age very quickly and become difficult to read. ID-type licences are inconvenient to carry. In contrast, the new licence has a life span of 10 years and is extremely convenient to carry. In addition to this, the old licence was available in English and Afrikaans only. The new licence is available in all 11 languages.

The new licensing system is already having the desired effect. Fraudulent licences are being removed from the system. Those attempting to convert licences obtained by fraudulent means have been stopped in their tracks. There was a widely reported case in Cape Town last week when several people arrived at the Hillstar centre with false licences, hoping to convert these to the new licence format. They were prevented from doing so, and promptly arrested. Several other arrests followed. So the system is working. Drivers who are not fit to be behind the wheel of a vehicle are being identified and they are being taken off our roads.

As the new system of licences permeates through the road safety programme, we will see the results on our roads in terms of a safer driving and travelling environment. Chairperson, the ANC supports the National Road Traffic Amendment Bill. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you, Chair, hon members. Allow me first to thank all hon members who have participated in this debate and discussion. I think a number of very useful points have come up and I want to assure the House that the suggestions and concerns which have been raised are matters which will certainly receive the attention of the department. I also believe that, at an appropriate time, the portfolio committee will review the situation: how the credit card format system has been working, what the weaknesses are, and where the problem areas are that need to be addressed - and we should not be afraid to look at the problem areas to see how we can deal with them.

I also want to thank all hon members for their kind remarks.

Agb mnr Aucamp, baie dankie ook vir u opmerkings. U het verwys na my grys hare. Daar was ‘n stadium toe daar geen hare was nie, nou’s daar darem so ‘n bietjie hare. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Hon Mr Aucamp, thank you also for your comments. You referred to my grey hair. There was a stage that I had no hair at all, but now there is at least a little hair.]

I also remember the saying that grey hair is not a sign of old age, it is a sign of wisdom.

Ek weet nie of dit waar is nie; ek hoop so. [I don’t know whether that is true; I hope so.]

I want to say to members of the public and public representatives that there are many motorists - members of the public - who have felt exasperated; who have raised concerns; who felt that the system is punitive, and that the Public Service does not care. I want to give them the assurance that that is not so. I know that there have been problems with procedures. There have been delays, and there have been complaints about costs and the issue of differential charges in different provinces to which hon Cronin referred. Why do we need temporary licences? Hon Mr Niemann raised the question of emigrants, for example. Then, the fact that the date of issue appears on the credit card format and does not give an indication as to how long a person has already had a licence.

So, I think members have raised a number of concerns. A number of them, I believe, are legitimate and need to be looked at. With regard to emigrants, I would like to say to hon Niemann that this is not a case of discrimination, and while certainly we need to look at the issue to see whether one can be of assistance, I would reject the notion that there has been discrimination of any kind. After all, people who have emigrated did so with the intention of settling in other countries, giving up their South African citizenship and not coming back. But, if people are going to return, then certainly it’s an issue we should look at - the portfolio committee needs to look at it too. I do not know whether it is possible to assist in that regard, but we must certainly look at it.

I also take the point, hon Farrow and others, that the communication process is going to be important. I want to assure the House that, in fact, the department is looking at that. I want to make the point about the fact that we brought this Bill to Parliament, and that the number of exemptions and opportunities that have been created are only for a limited category of persons. They are not going to be extended, and the general public - all of us - must be aware of the fact that this law has been successful; between four and five million people have complied with the law, and all of us need to do so.

As the hon Ainslie has pointed out, there are many advantages; harmonisation within the SADC region is a very important one. Moving in line with international norms and standards is also very important. Law enforcement, road safety and road traffic management in general are all going to benefit from the effective implementation of this system.

Allow me once again to thank the portfolio committee, and hon members for participating. It is great to be back. Thank you. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: That concludes the debate.

Hon members, before we proceed to put the question, I wish to add my good wishes, and those of the Presiding Officers, to the Minister of Transport. We wish him strength to deal with his illness, and trust that he will be in full strength very soon. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORTS 16 TO 23 OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

Mr F BEUKMAN: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon members and specifically members of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, on behalf of Scopa, I want to introduce the reports as indicated on the Order Paper and that were published in the ATC for consideration by the House.

I want to specifically focus this afternoon on the Scag task team report. This report was approved and adopted by Scopa on 20 August 2002, and the new procedure was subsequently implemented with immediate effect. Now, the Scag report is in essence a practise document to improve oversight and accountability and serve as a method of work guideline for Scopa.

Scag is an acronym for Scopa and the Auditor-General on the one hand, the pre-eminent committee on parliamentary oversight, and the Chapter 9 institution responsible for the audit and report of accounts, financial statements and financial management of national, provincial and local government.

The establishment of the Scag task team and subsequent report originated from a workshop held by Scopa in Gordon’s Bay in June 2002, that was held to take stock of its current operations with the view to increasing its effectiveness, efficiency and credibility. Various meetings of the task team took place to finalise the report.

I want to thank the following members who played a vital role in the task team: the hon Bruce Kannemeyer; the hon Nigel Bruce; at the Auditor- General’s office, Mr Cobus Botes, Mr Paul Mosaka and Anton van Dyk; Parliament’s Scopa secretariat and Mr Gershwin Dickson, who acted as secretary of the task team. Their input and suggestions were vital for the success of the project. I also want to extend a word of thanks to the FID for their financial support in making the report possible. I also want to thank Miss Ava Dowling and her team for their kind assistance.

Although Scopa’s oversight role is explained in Rule 206 of the National Assembly Rules, there is a clear need to further formalise and strengthen the operating procedure of Scopa to improve oversight and accountability. What are the conclusions and recommendations of the Scag report in a nutshell? Firstly, it is an improvement of the systems and procedures of Scopa, we now have a prioritised report system; the introduction of a grading system, and we now classify Government departments in terms of their audit reports. For instance, this morning we had the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development before us; they were classified as an A in terms of the audit reports.

Another conclusion reached is to reduce the Scopa review process of 80 reports from approximately 32 weeks to 20 weeks and to empower the secretariat to fulfil their multitude of tasks more effectively. On average, this new process would be about three months shorter than the previous one, and will be completed in full before the next review cycle begins in September of every year. Now, with regard to systems and procedures of Scopa, decisions on categories, for example, to decide on what department to call, may not only be informed by the following guidelines, but the membership of Scopa may deem a hearing necessary due to public opinion. Serious or recurring issues, material amounts in question, subsequent events or the political context at the time all play an important role in determining effective oversight and accountability.

The high volume of reports and tasks flowing into Scopa requires that some form of prioritisation should be undertaken to ensure that the most urgent issues receive priority attention, and that all departments and institutions should, over a three-year cycle, receive a turn to be considered, irrespective of priority.

Scopa will endeavour to have interaction with every Government department in a three-year cycle. Scopa is obliged to consider all matters referred to it by the National Assembly. However, it is clearly not expected that all matters should be dealt with in the same priority order, but that Scopa should apply an effective sifting in terms of agreed-upon criteria that would ensure that attention is given to reports that merit attention.

Mostly this would involve cases where maturity, accountability or governance in financial management terms has failed, ie problem cases. In terms of our operating procedures, we operate in terms of groups, and groups will make recommendations first based on the categories I will discuss in a minute or two, and then refer these to plenary for ratification.

Now, the three categories of priority for sifting of reports are as follows. We classify Government departments in terms of A, B and C and we usually also indicate that to a department when they come before us at a public hearing. A category A department is usually a department that would come before the committee for a public hearing and the matters that are of relevance here are: the audit opinion on Votes and public entities that are adverse, disclaimed or qualified; special reports of the Auditor-General; highly inadequate tabled responses to Scopa recommendations; matters of serious public concern not reported on by the Auditor-General; size of budget and/or assets; unqualified reports with material losses; cases of misconduct, and/or fruitless or unauthorised expenditure. Now, since August last year, all the departments that appeared before Scopa received an A classification.

Then the second category is departments for further interaction, or follow- up with those departments or institutions. These are matters that do not necessarily require a hearing, but a specific resolution or a letter to express issues of concern or to acquire further explanation from accounting officers or authorities. Usually it is unqualified audit opinions, unsatisfactory responses to Scopa recommendations and also relates to the size of a department’s budget, assets and impact.

And then we come to the category C classification and that is really the departments that are performing excellently, and also the Government or state institutions that are doing well in terms of the Auditor-General’s report. The category C covers matters that require no overt action by Scopa, but a standard resolution or letter and that is usually unqualified audit opinions and satisfactory responses to Scopa recommendations, and it also includes success stories, and departments or public entities with dramatic improvements or progress. The above sifting of reports will be done, as indicated earlier, by the Scopa work groups and scheduled into Scopa’s working programme. A cluster motivation report will be produced, detailing the above information that will serve as motivation and background information on departments selected to appear for hearings.

The report further highlights the following with regard to documentation and record-keeping. The secretariat’s filing system, filing capacity and resources at present are inadequate in fulfilling the needs of Scopa. The committee section’s or the Scopa secretariat’s resources for the storing of information needs to be urgently addressed.

One recommendation would be for Scopa to include, in its vision, the need to acquire its own proper budget in terms of designing and maintaining its own record-keeping facility. This would ensure that the responsibility and resources for the creation and maintenance of Scopa’s filing rest with the committee.

With regard to tracking and follow-through, we have created a mechanism consisting of a chairperson, conveners, and the secretariat in the Office of the Auditor-General that meets on a weekly basis to prioritise follow- ups and oversee tracking and follow-through. A formative status report on matters outstanding for the benefit of efficient administration of cluster and plenary meetings is also produced as a matter of standard practice.

Die verslag van die Scag-taakgroep is ‘n bewys dat Skoor die afgelope jaar deur die verfyning van sy werksmetodiek objektiewe riglyne daargestel het om ook omstrede kwessies te hanteer. Konsensus is, in wese, die grondslag van die komitee en daar moet deurlopend gepoog word om inhoud aan hierdie kernbeginsel te gee. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The report of the Scag task group is proof that Scopa has, during the past year, through fine-tuning its working methodology, introduced objective directives also to handle contentious issues. Consensus is, in essence, the foundation of the committee and continual efforts must be made to lend substance to this core principle.]

During our workshop at Gordon’s Bay, Richard Calland of Idasa highlighted issues that should form part of the debate regarding the role of the committee. And we, as a committee, have discussed these issues during our activities as this task group. Those issues perhaps need to be debated in future.

There is a need to establish conventions regarding oversight and we think that our report, in that regard, sets a precedent. This should be done with wider processes and Scopa should play that role. A distinctive role should be defined for Scopa oversight on behalf of the citizens of the country.

Oversight is dialogue; democracy is not a zero-sum game. People should be persuaded that Scopa is not there to make heads roll. It is about making a better democracy on behalf of the people. Scopa’s role is not just number- crunching, but assessing also the quality of expenditure in its opinion. Scopa must therefore work with portfolio committees and policy committees.

The following conventions seem important: A chairperson from the nonruling party; appointment of members for a parliamentary term; access to special resources, and also assistance by research facilities. Scopa has made a concerted effort to involve portfolio committees in their preparations for hearings and in the public hearings themselves. We have achieved mixed results in this department. Some portfolio committees reacted very positively, others not.

The need for the involvement of portfolio committees is essential to improve oversight and the monitoring of Government departments. I can perhaps single out the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services, which played a very active role in our hearing and in our preparation. I think they set a very good example of how we can jointly achieve oversight.

Skoor het tydens sy studiebesoek einde verlede jaar na Indië die volgende belangrike aspekte waargeneem, en dit word ook vervat in die verslag: Soortgelyke uitdagings in terme van sosio-ekonomiese ontwikkeling en openbare finansiële bestuur kom in beide lande voor; aktiwiteite van die komitee is ook grootliks apolities … (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[During its study visit to India at the end of last year Scopa observed the following important aspects, and these are also contained in the report: Similar challenges in terms of socioeconomic development and public financial management occur in both countries; activities of the committee are mostly a political …]

… and India is also moving from a cash accounting to accrual accounting system.

En dan, die Kantoor van die Ouditeur-generaal staan ook voor groot uitdagings wat sy onafhanklikheid en kapasiteit in Indië betref. Skoor het ook verlede jaar vir die eerste keer in sy geskiedenis oorsigbesoeke gebring aan staatsdepartemente waar kontroleprobleme ondervind word, waarna verwys word in die ATK. Dit sluit in die kantore van die justisiedepartement in die Oos-Kaap, die Mdantsane-landdroskantoor en Grahamstad se Meesterskantoor en in KwaZulu-Natal die Umlazi- landdroskantoor en Pietermaritzburg se Meesterskantoor, asook die Suid- Afrikaanse Inkomstediens by Kaapstad Internasionale Lughawe en Kaapstad- hawe.

So, dit is ‘n aanduiding dat ons nie bloot na die verslae kyk nie, maar dat ons ook kyk na wat op die grond aan die gang is. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[And then, the Office of the Auditor-General also faces great challenges in terms of its independence and capacity in India. Last year, for the first time in its history, Scopa paid visits to state departments where control problems are experienced, which are referred to in the ATC. This includes the offices of the Justice Department in the Eastern Cape, the Mdantsane Magistrates’ office and the Master’s Office in Grahamstown and KwaZulu- Natal, the Umlazi Magistrates’ office and Pietermaritzburg Master’s office, as well as the South African Revenue Service at Cape Town International Airport and in Cape Town Harbour.

So, this is an indication that we don’t merely look at the reports, but that we also look at what is happening on ground level.]

In 2001, the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association Study Group on Public Accounts Committees issued a report with several conclusions and recommendations on the role of the Public Accounts Committee. There should be greater direct conduct between parliaments, especially the public accounts committees and international financial institutions. Auditors- general should take account of the views of public accounts committees in framing their work programmes. Public accounts committees should keep under review any proposal to change the auditor-general’s audit mandate. The main aim of public accounts committees should be guided by the work of the auditor-general. There should always be sufficient experience and seniority to membership of the public accounts committees, and public accounts committees should also be adequately resourced to carry out their functions.

And then an important point, I think, is that public accounts committees, while not being bound to act unanimously, should strive for some consensus in their reports. Parliament should hold an annual debate on the work of public accounts committees.

I think the discussion of this report may lay the foundation with regard to that.

And then, finally, regarding the road ahead, the introduction of a best practice handbook for public accounts committees by the Ad Hoc Committee on Public Accounts chaired by Vincent Smith in May 2003 is an indication that the improvement of good governance and prudent financial management is a priority for members of Parliament represented in public accounts committees.

Skoor gaan ook in die derde kwartaal ‘n handleiding vir rekenpligtige beamptes publiseer, wat as grondslag gaan dien vir die optrede van die direkteurs-generaal tydens openbare verhore van die komitee. Die doel is om toe te sien dat die toepaslike en tersaaklike inligting die grondslag van openbare verhore vorm. Skoor probeer ook deur sy ontleding van openbare verhore daartoe bydra dat ons ten minste die kwaliteit daarvan kan kontroleer en ten minste kan beoog om dit op ‘n beter grondslag te plaas. Ek wil graag alle lede van Skoor in dié verband bedank.

Die Scag-verslag is ‘n beskeie poging om oorsig en verantwoording in die wetgewende konteks te verskerp. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[In the third quarter Scopa is also going to publish a guide for accounting officers, which will serve as basis for the conduct of the directors- general during public hearings of the committee. The aim is to see to it that the appropriate and relevant information forms the basis of public hearings. Scopa is trying, through its analysis of public hearings, to enable us to at least control their quality and at least to be able to envisage placing it on a better foundation. I would like to thank all members of Scopa in this regard.

The Scag report is a humble attempt to improve oversight and accountability within the legislative context.]

Thank you very much, Chairperson.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move:

That the Sixteenth Report be noted and the Seventeenth to Twenty-Third Reports be adopted.

Sixteenth report - SCAG Task Team noted.

Seventeenth to Twenty-Third Reports adopted.

         ELECTION OF MR E M SIGWELA AS TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON

                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I move: That the House elects Mr E M Sigwela to preside during today’s sitting of the House when requested to do so by a presiding officer.

Agreed to.

                             NEW MEMBERS

                           (Announcement)

The SPEAKER: Thank you very much. We will proceed but before going on to the next question, I wish to make an announcement and that is: The vacancy caused by the resignation of Mr M D Msomi has been filled by the nomination of Miss Madolose with effect from 23 June 2003, and the vacancy caused by the resignation of Mr P Uys has been filled by the nomination of Miss C B Johnson with effect from 25 June. Both members have been sworn in in my office this afternoon. [Applause.]

I must say that the addition of two more women in this House strengthens it considerably. [Applause.]

Deputy President, I need not ask you. I am sure you will agree. We will now proceed to Question 18 which has been asked by the hon Beukman.

                      UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE

                              (Ruling)

The SPEAKER: Question 20 has been withdrawn. But before we come to questions to Ministers in the economics cluster, I wish to give a ruling on a matter outstanding for over a week, and I apologise.

On the 13th of June, in a response by the Minister for Safety and Security to a statement by Mr Gibson, the hon Mr Ellis raised a point of order regarding a remark made by the hon Minister.

Having had an opportunity to study Hansard, I would now like to give the ruling. Hansard indicates that the hon Minister for Safety and Security accused the hon Gibson of ``deliberately misleading the public and the media’’.

This is unparliamentary and must be withdrawn. It makes no difference that the allegations by the Minister relate to statements made by a member outside this House. The issue is that the hon Minister’s remark was made in the House and clearly reflects on the integrity of another member. I would therefore ask the hon Minister to please withdraw the remark.

The MINISTER FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Given the fact that it was never my intention to demean the hon member, or rather to attack his publicity-seeking stunt, I apologise unreservedly. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Thank you. Would that the spirit prevailed. [Laughter.]

  TRANSLATION OF SADC PARLIAMENTARY FORUM INTO REGIONAL PARLIAMENT

                      (Subject for Discussion)

Prof B TUROK: Madam Deputy Speaker, I was fortunate in that in the 25 years that I spent in exile, I was able to work in Africa, to write about Africa and to do research about Africa. I learnt a great deal, for which I am eternally grateful. It is clear to me, on the basis of my experience, that there is no more important issue today than installing a sound parliamentary system right across Africa.

I lived under the dictatorship of President Kenyatta. I lived under that one-party state of Tanzania of Nyerere, which was benign, but it was a one- party state. I also lived and worked under the one-party state of Kaunda in Zambia. It is quite clear that the legacy of those systems is now over, and that there is an agreement right across the continent that we need parliamentary rule and that we need democratic governance right in the forefront.

I would say that this acknowledgement and this understanding is not simply due to external pressure, because there is pressure from outside that democratic governance and a parliamentary system should be installed, but it is understood by Africans themselves that a parliamentary system is central to good governance and to a good society. I also want to say to those people who say that the failures of the previous decades should be understood as the failures of Africans to govern, that this is fallacious. If you look at the whole of the Third World, and particularly Latin America, and you analyse the problems of Latin America - the migration, the problems of shack settlements, and so on - you can see that the patterns of underdevelopment which occurred in Latin America have also occurred in Africa. These problems are not the consequences of Africans’ inability to rule themselves, but are consequences of a system of underdevelopment which is now clear and scientifically analysed. It is because the legacy of underdevelopment is so well understood now that people in Africa and in this region are saying that we need a parliamentary system, not only within countries, but also multilaterally.

I was fortunate, very recently, on 29 April, to attend a meeting in Livingstone in Zambia, where the SADC Parliamentary Forum, which consists of 12 countries, met to discuss the question of the future of the SADC Parliamentary Forum. Interestingly too, there were delegates from the West African Regional Parliament and also from the East African Regional Parliament, because we now have a situation where there are regional parliaments formally constituted in West Africa, and also in East Africa, and so, the SADC Parliamentary Forum, which has been a kind of transitional arrangement for some time, expressed itself very strongly that we must have a full regional parliament with legislative powers, and that the priority for this, in this year of 2003, is the highest possible priority for the region. South Africa has offered to host the first meetings of such an assembly, and it will be an interesting process.

But let me just say that there is a lot of discussion in Africa about whether such an assembly should be deliberative, or whether it should be legislative. Recently the president of the European Union Assembly or Parliament, visited South Africa and there was a workshop in Cape Town. What he said to us was that, in Europe, the experience has been that it is not an either-or situation of being a deliberative assembly or a legislative assembly: there is a process and a graduation. I believe, just as with the Pan-African Parliament, that it will start off as a deliberative institution, and move to being a legislative institution. So, similarly in the SADC region, we will have, no doubt, a movement from the forum, which is in a sense an informal institution, gradually through a series of stages, to become a legislative institution.

I was invited to this particular meeting to do a presentation on Nepad. A great deal of interest and a great many questions arose, and it is clear that the Nepad issue is closely linked to the future of this region, and to the emergence of parliamentary democracy.

In the available time, I want to raise the broader issues that were raised at this meeting, and not deal so much with the technical issues. Among the important issues are: What will be the relationship of national parliaments to the Pan-African Parliament? What will be the relationship of national parliaments to the regional parliament? And above all: What will be the relationship between such a regional parliament and the structure of SADC, which is largely an institution run by officials? Related to that: What will be the separation of powers in such a situation? What will be the separation of powers between executive functions and parliamentary functions, within countries, within regions and across the whole of Africa? So, a whole fascinating scheme of institutional reform and adjustment is under way, to which our own working group in this Parliament is paying a great deal of attention.

I want to say that Dr Mutukwa, the secretary-general of this institution, raised enormously important questions of principle about the relationship between parliament and democracy. He raised a number of questions, and I want to repeat them: Can there be democracy if there is a denial of fundamental rights? [Interjections.] The great democrats on my left are trying to disrupt democracy. Thank you. [Laughter.]

He asked what the benchmarks of democracy were, and what the institutions of democracy were. [Interjections.] Don’t be so petty. [Interjections.] Relax. He asked: How do we strengthen democracy?'' Above all, he asked: What is the role of Parliament in strengthening democracy?’’ You can see that this Zambian, who has come out of a one-party system, that has gone through the trauma of presidential elections, is raising the most fundamental questions about parliamentary democracy to which we and the region must pay attention.

He asked the question: Can there be democracy without democrats?'' You will remember that President Nyerere raised the question:Can there be socialism without socialists?’’ because he felt that Tanzania had insufficient socialists. But now the question is different, and it’s rather interesting given the era in which we live: Can there be democracy without democrats?'' Above all:What of the role of political parties?’’

Dr Mutukwa gave a number of answers: Firstly, parliamentary democracy is about choice. Democratic governance is a matter of definition. Who decides on the definition? Is it the IMF and the World Bank or the G8 who decide on a definition of democratic governance? That was a very important question for us, and the answer that came from the meeting was that Africa must decide what democratic governance means for us, and for our parliaments. He also mentioned that essential to democracy and the parliamentary system is a bill of rights, the rule of law, a free media and, he stressed, an active civil society.

Indeed, as part of this process of creating this parliament, the question of norms and standards for elections has been raised, and interestingly enough, it is the parliament of Angola which has raised the question in its parliament that the norms and standards of elections are crucial to parliamentary democracy. It is clear that a SADC parliament will have to engage in the following issues: peace-building, essential in a region torn by strife and conflict, which has seen the most devastating domestic wars and cross-border wars; democratic government, an essential ingredient; and gender equality. Interestingly enough, in that assembly that I was present at, the question of gender was raised again and again, and it seems to me there is a heightened consciousness that parliamentary democracy must raise the question of gender equality as a high priority.

Also, there is the question of harmonising the regional laws. We are pulling together a number of highly disparate countries: people who speak Portuguese, people who speak English, people who speak a whole range of languages, and legislation which has come out of a different colonial history. If you compare the Angolan history with the South African history, or the Mozambican with the Zimbabwean, or Malawian, you can see a whole range of statutes have emerged over time as decolonisation has taken place. Now we have to begin to harmonise those statutes among ourselves.

What is the relation of the regional parliament to SADC? Up to now, there has been a bit of a wall between the two. SADC officials have regarded themselves as an autonomous sphere of interest, and the SADC Parliamentary Forum has also been treated as an autonomous area of activity.

But now we come to the crucial issue of oversight. Oversight is going to be one of the most contentious, most problematic and most difficult issues which are going to come up with the Pan-African Parliament, and also with the regional parliament. If we have a parliament in this region, how will it exercise oversight over the executive, over the President, for that matter? In the region how will it exercise oversight over heads of state and over the SADC officials? These are difficult issues. There is going to be a lot of constitution-making and a lot of protocols, and treaties will have to be worked on.

What was made clear is that a regional parliament, like the Pan-African Parliament, will not be an arena for appeals from national parliaments. In other words, these parliaments are not higher bodies, in the sense of exercising control, or places where national parliaments and national MPs will be able to go to make appeals. No, they are different kinds of institutions. The rules have to be developed, and so on.

Then what came up at that meeting, as has come up at our meetings here, and which came up at the meeting of African parliaments which we had some time ago, and which will come up again in the meeting which we will have here on Monday, is the question of sovereignty. People have formulated this in a different way, that it is not a matter of surrendering sovereignty, or ceding sovereignty, but a matter of pooling sovereignty. Here we have a number of countries which come together for a common purpose, and the sovereignty issue stands as an obstacle to them uniting, and therefore the concept we want is a concept of pooling democracy so that we all work together in the common interest.

This parliament is going to need operational structures of many kinds. It’s going to have the problem, as the Pan-African Parliament has, and as the African Union had, of sanctions on violations. You all know about the African peer review mechanism, which has been approved, and which is now being instituted. You all know about the Peace and Security Council which is on the way, which is being established. What sanctions do we use, collectively, for violations against the very institutions that we are talking about?

How do we build institutions which are sustainable, which are financed and which are funded properly? And then, the question that must be of interest to all of us: What happens to a member of parliament - a regional parliament, or the Pan-African Parliament - who violates certain issues? Do they have immunity? It’s absolutely clear, and the advice from the President of the Parliament of the African Union was that no matter where your parliament is located, whether it is multilateral, or multinational, immunity for members of parliament is essential, so that they’re able to speak freely and correctly.

One of the points that came up, which I found interesting, was that many of the members of parliament who attended the meeting in Livingstone were arguing that members of parliament are the greatest custodians of democracy. One of them even said that members of parliament are closer to the people than the executive, because they operate in constituencies, they operate directly with and close to the people, and they have to do so, because they come from the people, from constituencies.

I would not want to push that too hard, but it’s clear that members of parliament are seen to be close to the people, as having a great responsibility, and that in itself is a guarantee that the parliament will be important and will have to function in a democratic manner. Since my time is nearly up, let me come to the conclusion.

It is clear that the Pan-African Parliament, and this regional parliament, will have powers and influences that we don’t yet understand, that we haven’t yet quantified, but they will be substantial. The Pan-African Parliament, in particular, will report directly to the heads of state, to the assembly; and the regional parliament, similarly, should have a certain position in relation to the heads of government in this region, which is similar to the Pan-African Parliament.

If we do this right, and if we look at the oversight in the correct manner, we ought to have very sound building blocks which will build both regional unity and continental unity. I think that is an exciting prospect for us. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr C W EGLIN: Mr Chairman, the subject before us is the translation of the SADC Parliamentary Forum into a regional parliament. This causes us to ask: Do we need a regional parliament? Will it contribute towards good governance, towards democracy and to development in our region? And secondly, is the SADC PF achieving its necessary purpose? I have had the opportunity of serving on this parliamentary forum for the last four years, and I must say that I have come to the conclusion that the forum, constructed as it is, is playing no significant role in the affairs of the region, nor is it contributing materially to the process of integration that is taking place in our region.

I have found the biannual meetings agreeable, the camaraderie enjoyable, the hospitality excellent, the discussions interesting. But, having said this, I have come to the conclusion that the parliamentary forum constructed as it is, is an expensive interparliamentary talk shop with little or no influence on the policies or workings of SADC. Yes, it has a role as interparliamentary talk shop, but it has very little bearing on the workings of SADC. The reason for this is to be found in the fact that, although the parliamentary forum was founded through and on the SADC Treaty, it is in fact an independent body with its own identity, its own constitution, its own administration and its own budget. And what is more, this forum has no direct formal links with SADC or its organs and, as a consequence, it has no opportunity to influence its decisions.

As it is structured at present, the forum cannot legislate, it cannot oversee the work of SADC and it cannot make any reasonable representative input into the decision-making structures of SADC. It’s got no contact with SADC. It is a forum separate from SADC although it is a creature of SADC.

Given the progress we have made towards integration, not only in our region but in the other four regions in Africa, SADC needs a regional parliament. It needs one which is available to legislate with this when it becomes necessary. It needs a parliament that is empowered to oversee the work of the various SADC structures and through which the voice of the people can be heard on matters relevant to the region. To do this, the parliamentary forum will have to be transformed from a forum to a fully fledged organ and a fully fledged parliament of SADC. This can be done either through the amendments to the SADC Treaty or through a new SADC protocol or through a combination of the two.

This is going to be discussed at meetings over this weekend and naturally later on in the parliamentary forum. While this organ should have an identity as a parliament clearly defined, it must have a relationship with other organs of SADC. In our South African Parliament we pride ourselves that we have oversight of our executive. There is no institution in SADC which has oversight over the executive, and that should be the function of a regional parliament. It must have relations with the other organs so that it can carry out its oversight role and make inputs on behalf of the people it represents.

The Constitutive Act of the AU, article 17.1, gives a motivation for a Pan- African Parliament and it says:

In order to ensure the full participation of African peoples in the development and economic integration of the continent, a Pan-African Parliament shall be established.

And I believe, for exactly the same reasons, a regional parliament should be established in Southern Africa.

The second reason for transforming the forum into a regional parliament flows from the development of the African Union. The AU, while it will have constitutional structures such as the Pan-African Parliament, the Peace and Security Council and the commission, envisages using the five regional structures as the building blocks for implementing the development of Africa. It sees the regional structures as the building blocks and in this process it is envisaged that there will be a functional link between the AU organs and the regional counterparts and, for this linkage to operate effectively, it is essential that all five regions have appropriate regional organs in place and that means having five regional parliaments in place.

The East African and the West African states have already got theirs in place. We believe that it is important that even though there is the matter of the details, such as my friend has mentioned - the funding, the location, the composition and the method of election, the powers on the field of legislation, the oversight, and the relationship to national parliaments - if we are serious about Africa, if we are serious about development in Africa, if we are serious about development in the Southern African region, it’s essential that a start be made to the formation of an African regional parliament and that that start be made right now. Thank you. [Applause.] Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Deputy Speaker, the ultimate goal of developing into a regional parliament was again stressed at the 2002 bi-annual forum plenary assembly in the Republic of Mauritius when that country’s national assembly speaker, Premnath Ramnah, stated that the time has come for the forum to transform itself into a regional parliament so that parliamentarians can take their rightful place in the regional development process.

The transformation of the forum into a regional parliament is therefore common cause. Last year’s plenary assembly also reiterated that the objectives of the forum included accelerating economic co-operation, development, integration and encouraging good governance, transparency, human rights, gender equity and equality and accountability in the region. It also committed itself to concentrating on poverty reduction and increasing parliaments’ role in monitoring budgets and poverty reduction programmes.

Herein lies the crux of the challenge of transforming the forum into a regional parliament. Millions of people in Southern Africa face poverty, hunger, famine and general deprivation on a daily basis. This is unfortunately not a new phenomenon, although the extent of deprivation has been deepened by recent political and socioeconomic upheavals in some of the region’s countries.

The regional parliament will have to set up poverty alleviation programmes through accelerating regional development and co-operation at the top of its agenda. Parliamentarians have a special responsibility in this regard. Parliamentarians are in a position to be closer to the people. I support what Prof Turok said at the beginning. They are closer to the people of the SADC region than governments which sometimes operate at a very high level. I think we should note this. In a certain sense, parliamentarians will therefore have to be the voice of the people to make their needs and aspirations known to government institutions and other affected parties. This is, in many ways, the classical role of parliamentarians and, in other words, representing the people.

The regional parliament will also have to fulfil another of parliamentarians’ classic roles - that is, acting as a watchdog and oversight body to ensure that the executive does not abuse its powers. This is a vital role in any democracy and becomes even more so when poverty alleviation is a higher priority. A regional parliament would have to monitor states’ budgets and poverty reduction programmes throughout the region and to ensure that states’ resources are effectively applied in improving the lives of the region’s inhabitants. Transforming the SADC Parliamentary Forum into a regional parliament will undoubtedly strengthen the region’s participation and inputs into the Nepad process and the institutions of the African Union.

Much criticism was expressed at the launch of the AU and Nepad that the views of ordinary Africans and civil society had not been taken on board during the decision-making process. The merits of such criticisms are not really an issue here. However, what is important is that a regional parliament must enable ordinary citizens and civil society to be heard and to participate meaningfully in debates and decisions that affect their lives. A regional parliament must do so in order to foster participatory democracy and consolidation.

In conclusion, the IFP supports the transformation of the forum into a regional parliament, provided that it focuses on giving the people of the SADC region an effective voice in how their lives are governed and meaningful input into decision-making processes. Furthermore, a regional parliament has to be an effective instrument through which regional problems such as poverty can be solved. Such a body should never be allowed to become a debating forum where words speak louder than actions. I thank you.

Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Deputy Speaker, I agree fully with the previous speaker. The SADC Parliamentary Forum should, undoubtedly, be transformed into a full-fledged regional parliament. To put the hon member Donald at ease, I also agree fully with the hon Colin Eglin. The Parliamentary Forum cannot remain a talk shop forever.

Currently, SADC, like the African Union, can be compared to a house without a foundation. The various institutions of SADC, for example the summit and the council, should be subjected to oversight and should be accountable to a body representative of the people of the region. Only a full-fledged regional parliament would be able to fulfil this function effectively.

Having said that, however, it would have been better to have established a regional parliament after transformation of the region into an economic community encompassing a free trade area. One should not lose sight of the fact that even the Pan-African Parliament, in terms of the Abuja Treaty, was originally also supposed to be established once an economic integration process of the whole of Africa had been completed over a period of 34 years.

It was also envisaged, at a certain stage, that SADC be transformed into a free trade area over a period of eight years. Unfortunately, it seems as if we are still light years away from achieving this objective.

Article 3.9 of the protocol establishing the Pan-African Parliament says: ``The objectives of the Pan-African Parliament shall be to facilitate cooperation among Regional Economic communities and their Parliamentary fora.’’ The protocol, however, is silent on how this co-operation should take place in practice.

Transforming regional parliamentary fora into proper regional parliaments may provide the answer in the sense that regional parliaments could then send representatives to the Pan-African Parliament. The ideal situation would have been a bottom-up approach instead of a top-down approach, even if that implied amending the protocol establishing the Pan-African Parliament. I want to flaunt the idea that national parliaments send representatives to the regional parliaments which, in turn, send representatives to the Pan- African Parliament. In other words, the Pan-African Parliament should not be composed of members of national parliaments, but of members of regional parliaments. This would ensure a much more cohesive African parliamentary structure, with a functional link between national parliaments, regional parliaments and, of course, the Pan-African Parliament. Thank you.

Adv Z L MADASA: Madam Speaker, the translation of the SADC Parliamentary Forum into a regional parliament is an important step towards the rationalisation of regional institutions on the continent.

There is a myriad of overlapping regional institutions, which have contributed greatly to the slow rationalisation of economic groupings. Africa has about 200 organisations dealing with co-operation and integration. With such a maze of regional structures and a dire lack of capacity, it is incumbent to speed up rationalisation.

The Cairo Agenda for Action, endorsed by the 31st Ordinary Session of the Assembly of the OAU, recommended the speeding up of the rationalisation of the institutional framework in order to achieve economic integration at regional level. Rationalised regional structures are major instruments in facilitating economic co-operation and in facilitating an integration strategy of Africa, and constitute building blocks or cornerstones of the AU.

Indeed, one of the objectives of the Pan-African Parliament, according to Articles 3.4 and 3.9, is to facilitate co-operation of regional economic communities and their parliamentary fora. Article 11.7, in terms of the functions and powers of the Pan-African Parliament, states: ``Promote the co-ordination and harmonisation of policies, measures, programmes and activities of the Regional Economic Communities and the parliamentary fora of Africa’’.

The effects of the slow pace on the full integration process of Africa has caused untold suffering for the poor masses. To illustrate how far behind Africa is in its vision of an African Renaissance, foreign direct investment in Africa as a whole and exports have fallen to below 10%, whilst imports into the continent from outside have increased astronomically to about 95%. The absense of accelerated regional integration has caused Africa to lack bargaining power in multilateral institutions. Only a common, holistic, all- sector regional vision, instead of state-based trade, will help in the eradication of poverty.

Intratrade, but not structural transformation of the regional economic communities in Africa, has not resulted in the acceleration of trade, unlike elsewhere in the world. African states still marvel at having bilateral trade agreements with Western countries, thereby contributing to the further fragmentation of African trade to the detriment of the collective vision. Thank you.

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Deputy Chair, there has never been a more exciting time than today for Southern African member states that constitute SADC. We have just witnessed the birth of the African Union, which seeks to unite and develop Africa into a prosperous continent. To set Africa on this new and challenging course, we have Nepad as a blueprint to bring about the envisaged development changes.

The parliamentary forum over the years has managed to bring together parliamentarians of member states to discuss and test solutions to their pressing problems, albeit in a nonbinding manner. It is through this experience that parliamentarians themselves saw a need to have the institution formalised so as to make and monitor effective implementation of these laws.

We are confident that once the forum has been disbanded, its aims and objectives will continue to be realised, because the new institution, in the form of a regional parliament, will have more teeth as it will also be backed by the African Union.

It is through this regional institution that context-sensitive legislation will be initiated to advance the interests of the bloc within a broader context. As South African parliamentarians we are challenged with discharging our loyalty and professionalism to make this initiative work. We have to ensure that we continue to share whatever resources we have with other members of the proposed regional parliament. [Time expired.]

Dr M S MOGOBA: Chairperson, congratulations! Halala makhelwane! [Congratulations, neighbour!] [Laughter.] Our approach to this debate is unambiguously an Africanist one. We support the view that African unity is critical and urgent.

When we procrastinate because we fear and mistrust each other, we are tempted to create structures which we then get used to and fear demolishing later. In a small way, this Parliament of ours, and the Union Buildings and Palace of Justice in Pretoria are a case in point, as are our homeland parliaments, provincial parliaments and legislature villages.

When delay takes the form of mortar and bricks, it often results in permanent postponement. So this is our first comment underlying the urgency of Pan-African unity in action. The SADC community is a homogeneous one, thanks to colonialism. We share common weather patterns, and agricultural, mining and industrial experiences, as well as roads and communications infrastructures, which make us one community.

Most SADC states could develop into a powerful economic state, which could become a model for the rest of the continent and the engine of Nepad. The development of a large nature reserve, cutting across boundaries of states, is a very good model of closer unity in SADC.

The scarcity of water in the region points to the need for a water conservation policy in that Kariba, the Lesotho Highlands Water Project and Lake Malawi could ensure that the dry areas of SADC develop without major problems. Regionalism and parochialism can retard progress and development. [Time expired.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson …

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr E M Sigwela): I have given you one more minute. So, you have three minutes now.

Miss S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Chairperson. Congratulations to you! Within the South African terrain we may boast a rich supply of ecological, natural and human resources. Yet, our communities are unfortunately prey to horrific circumstances which are rooted in poverty, hunger, disease, famine and many unfortunate others.

The MF strongly supports the Southern African Development Community which has united to overcome these challenges that cripple our people. Angola, Botswana, Lesotho, Malawi, Mauritius, Mozambique, Namibia, Swaziland, Tanzania, Zambia and Zimbabwe, we thank you for joining forces with us to promote democracy, stability and a better life for all within the region. United we stand strongly to attain the ends that we work towards.

The SADC Parliamentary Forum has been a strong contributor to the success of SADC and comprises 1 800 members of parliament. The forum has been successful in hosting a number of auspicious gatherings to architect the master plan of SADC and move it into action. Many years have passed since the Windhoek Initiative, and the transformation of the SADC Parliamentary Forum into a regional parliament has now dawned upon us. Many decisions are to be taken and time is of the essence since SADC aims to achieve that by the end of the year. The MF feels that meetings, discussions and organisation need to be intensified so as to ensure that the regional parliament that we aim at achieving will constitute and represent an efficient and effective delegation.

The MF feels that the time constraints have to be overcome effectively. The MF supports the formation of the SADC regional parliament. Thank you. [Applause.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr E M Sigwela): Hon members, there is one point that I must address. I noticed that there was some unhappiness when I said I was giving Miss Rajbally one more minute. It’s the time that she has been able to get from other speakers before her. That is the position.

We will now listen to the hon Mr McIntosh since Rev Aucamp is not here.

Mr G B D McINTOSH: Mr Chairman, I am pleased to hear that the time allocation wasn’t gender biased because there is another lady who is going to speak after me. I hope that she will not get more than 15 minutes. We understand that the hon Aucamp is not in the debate.

I think that it is fantastic to have a debate like this because I think that our Parliament comes into its own. It has a real sense of collegiality because when I can find myself, and Mr Eglin as well, agreeing with somebody who represents a tiny party, like the one that the hon Prof Turok is a member of, and we agree on the need for multiparty democracy in our region, then I think it’s great. It’s wonderful to participate in such a debate. I think that what we need to understand, and it’s been pointed out by the hon Eglin, is that we have had a parliamentary forum for four years. It was also pointed out by the hon Prof Turok who said that we need a process. It’s quite clear that we, in this Parliament, want a regional parliament.

I just want to raise some of the concerns which I think we need to address. I call them stepping stones because I don’t want to see them as stumbling blocks or as problems. First of all, I think that we do need to get a proper mandate unless we believe we are an autonomous group. So, it means that we have to go to SADC and get a protocol. We have to move in that area because it’s not a good idea to be unmandated. I think that we need to address that. People need to address that tomorrow.

We also have to address this question of sovereignty which is not so easy because we, of course, do not have parliamentary sovereignty in this country. We are a constitutional democracy. Before 1994 we had parliamentary sovereignty whereas the other countries didn’t necessarily have that. I think that one has to look at that. We also need to recognise that SADC is growing and that there could be conflicts in terms of what the region is. Tanzania, for example, is a member of the East African Community. Should it not in fact be a member of its parliament and not of the SADC parliament? Maybe we must look at what we might call a Southern African parliament. What about the position of Madagascar? Is that going to come into SADC or does it remain in East Africa, as it were?

I think we have to agree that a deliberative process is the one that would start and yet could move on to being legislative. Let’s look, for example, at the SADC Organ on Politics, Defence and Security which was a real problem in SADC, initially, because you will recall that that organ did its own thing and it was a real problem in bringing peace to the DRC. Fortunately that situation has been corrected and those of us who look at what comes through our pigeonholes would have seen that thick document as well as the one on transfrontier parks. To me, those protocols should certainly be deliberated on in a SADC parliament, or whatever we may call it, such as whether Tanzania, for example, will not be in the parliament.

I do think that we also need to look carefully at things like budgets and representation. I think that hon Eglin made those points. What’s also important is to recognise that we need practical growth and development. We don’t want a candyfloss parliament which will, with one lick, just disappear. We want parliaments which count and are effective. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr C AUCAMP: Chairperson, we can’t let you pass your maiden session in the Chair without a point of order. My point of order is this: I was in my office following the debate on the screen and I observed that you called my name as if I was supposed to take part in the debate. I just want to inform the House that I asked my secretary to phone the relevant officers and notify them that I would not be able to participate. I don’t want to create the impression that I just dropped out of the debate.

It seems that you didn’t get the notice but I did excuse myself from the debate.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr E M Sigwela): Hon member, you probably didn’t hear properly because I said that the next member could speak since you were not in the House.

Mr C AUCAMP: Yes, but I did apologise.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, your time has expired. Hon Motubatse- Hounkpatin, please proceed.

Ms S D MOTUBATSE-HOUNKPATIN: Chairperson, I think you will be the first person to need interpretation because I’m not going to speak in English and I’m not going to speak in Northern Sotho either.

Eupša ke tlile go bolela ka Sepedi. Le gona ka Sepedi sa mmakgonthe a kgodi’a kgokgo ya lerotse.

Modulasetulo, SADC ga bjale e na le dinagaditho tše e ka bago tše lesomenne. Seo ke tlilego go se dira lehono ke go bolela ka ga naga ye ya gaborena le tšeo re nyakago gore di direge mo lekaleng la SADC. Sa mathomo ke nyaka gore re boeleng kua Kliptown, gore ka 1955 bakgalabje ba gaborena

• baetapele ba rena - ba be ba e ra eng ge ba be ba re: ``There shall be peace and friendship’’. Ke kgopela gore re kwešišeng taba ye ka botlalo gobane ka wona ngwaga woo baetapele ba ANC ba be ba šetše ba kwešiša gore re ka se kgone go tšwela pele re le noši; gore re swanetše go šomišana le dinaga tše dingwe, le gore re swaraneng ka diatla gore re be le tšwelopele.

Mo go SADC, go na le dilo tše ntši tšeo e lego dinyakwa tša rena ka moka. Eupša lehono ke kgopela gore nke re lekoleng tše tharo tšekhwi gore ke eng seo re bonago e le se bohlokwa kudu go rena setšhabeng. Sa mathomo, ke nyaka gore re lebelele khutšo. Ka moka re a tseba gore ntwa yona ga e na bothakga. Ga ke tsebe gore o kile wa bona ge banna ba ngaparelane, ba e lwa. Ba tloge ba tšitšibala, ba befa ka kudu. Ka gore ntwa ga e na bothakga, le ge yo mongwe a lomile yo mongwe dinko ga a mo fe le nako ya gore a ka phumula le mamina. Ke ka mokgwa woo ntwa e lego bošaedi ka gona. Ka tsela yeo, o ka nagana gore ge ntwa e e tla setšhabeng gona e befa go le go go kae.

Sa bobedi, ke nyaka gore batho ba gaborena ba nyaka tšwelopele. Batho ba gaborena ba tennwe ke mohlako; ga ba sa nyaka go diila. Se, se ka re thuša gore re kgone go hlokomela dinyakwa tša rena ka magaeng. Ke bolela ka motlakase; ke bolela ka meetse ao a hlwekilego; ke bolela ka mello le yona metato ya gore re kgone go bolela le balešika le bao re ba ratago, ge ba le kgole le rena.

Ge re e tla go tša thuto, ka moka re nyaka go tseba go ngwala; re nyaka go bolela sejahlapi le baagišane ba rena; re nyaka mešomo ya maemo, gape re nyaka gore re kgone go boledišana le bao ba tšwago ka Angola, Mozambique, Lesotho, Swatseng, go ya ka maleme ao ba a bolelago mo dinageng tša bona. (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[But I am going to speak in Sepedi. And in Sepedi in the true sense of the word.

Chairperson, SADC now has about 14 member countries. What I am going to do today is to talk about our country and what we think should happen in SADC. Firstly I want us to think back to Kliptown in 1955, and what our old men - our leaders - meant when they said: ``There shall be peace and friendship.’’ I would like us to understand this clearly because in that year the leaders of the ANC understood that we could not move forward alone; that we should co-operate with other countries, and that we should unite to develop.

In SADC, there are many things that are our needs. But today let us focus on three needs and find out what is really important to us as the community. Firstly, I want us to look at peace. All of us know that the aftermath of war is a mess. I do not know if you have ever seen men holding each other tightly, fighting. They really get very ugly. Because war always leaves a mess, when one has bitten off his opponent’s nose, he does not give him a chance to wipe off the mucus. That is how ugly war is. So you can imagine how ugly war gets when it affects the community.

Secondly, I want to say our people need development. Our people are tired of poverty; they no longer want to be poor. This can help us to be able to take care of our family needs. I am talking about electricity; I am talking about clean water; I am talking about fires and telephones to talk to our families and those we love, when they are far from us.

When it comes to education, we all want to be able to write; we want to speak English with our neighbours; we want good jobs, and we want to be able to speak with people who come from Angola, Mozambique, Lesotho and Swaziland in the languages spoken in those countries.] I want to say that without development there is no access to resources. We cannot build a lasting peace if there is no development. Without education, we cannot speak of respect and dignity. Politics do have a profound influence on development. If people take decisions on development and become responsible for what happens in their lives, it means they have political power and thus can drive development on their own.

But, it is also important to note that local politics are also influenced by regional and international politics. South Africa, Mozambique, Angola and Malawi are examples of how difficult development can be if politics are not in order. Peace is often threatened by lack of discussions or gaining access to available resources. This is a political action that leads to conflicts in many countries on this continent.

My colleague hon Turok has already spoken about the process and recommendations on establishing a SADC parliament with full legislative powers. Let me remind the House that the ANC in the 1950s realised the need for regional co-operation. Already in the 1950s we had migrant workers coming from the SADC countries, who were brought to South Africa to work in the mines. The struggle against oppression was not confined to South Africans only but we remember that the Rhodesians, now Zimbabweans, and the people of South West Africa, now Namibians, were also engaged in the struggle.

But I cannot forget the effort of the disabled people of South Africa. They are working tirelessly in the region. Presently, there is a booklet that has been published with a plan until 2013. This booklet is about the integration of disabled people in society, articulating their needs and also their aspirations. Also on the SADC level, there are discussions about the rights of children. I must say that there are some strides that have been made in this regard.

Some of us were lucky enough to attend the SADC Gender Unit in Malawi recently. There was a lot of training for MPs that helped them to deal with gender stereotypes in our communities and in our society.

Modulasetulo, ke nyaka gore mehla le mabaka di fetogile bjale. Mengwageng ya go feta ge motho a be a belege ngwana wa segole goba ngwana yo a se nago ditho tše di feleletšego, o be a bewa ka kua mafuri, a fihlwa gore a se bonwe ke motho. Nako yeo e fetile. Batho ba gaborena le bona ba nyaka gore ba hwetše dinyakwa go swana le batho ka moka; ba hwetše thuto gore ba kgone go tšwela pele. Eupša seo se nthabišago ke gore se ga se direge fela bathong ba gaborena mo nageng ya rena; dinagamabapi le tšona di swere ka maatla di šomišana le ba gaborena. Ke nako ya gore digole di tšwele pele gomme le tšona di amogelwe ditšhabeng ka moka go swana le batho ka moka. A ke re le bona ke batho ba a phela le gona ba na le dinyakwa bjalo ka rena. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[I want to say things have now changed. In the past, if a woman gave birth to a disabled child, the child would be put in the backyard, so that people would not see the child. That time is over. Our people also want to have their needs addressed, like all people; and get education so that they can develop. But what makes me happy is that this is not only happening to our people in our country; the neighbouring countries are also co-operating with our country. It is time that the disabled developed and were accepted in all communities, like all people. Let me say they are also people who are living and have needs like us.]

Presently in the SADC countries, women are participating at different levels. In 1997 the heads of state signed a declaration in which they committed themselves to 30% participation by women.

Ke nyaka go gopotša setšhaba gore lehono ge re bolela ka ga 30%, ga se yeo e tlilego fela. Ke 30% yeo e tlilego ka baka la go lwela tokologo, go kwešiša ditshwanelo tša botho le gore ANC e ipotše gore yona e tlo dira gore basadi ba tsene ka mo. Manyami ke gore taba yeo gabjale e šongwa ke lekoko le la ANC fela. Se se ra gore ge makoko a mangwe a ka tšeya pušo, re ilo boela morago. Basadi ba ka se be gona mo Palamenteng. Basadi ba tla boela ba yo gelela meetse le go thotha dikgong. Ga se mošomo wa basadi fela woo. [Legofsi.] Ka gona, kwešišo ya ka ke gore ge makoko ao a lego mo Palamenteng a itlemile ka moka; gore ke lefe leo le bušago, re tlo dika re tseba gore ge e le dinyakwa tša basadi tšona di tlo fela di šetšwa, di ka se šalele morago.

Pele ga ge ke dula fase, ke kgopela gore nke ke boele dipolelong tšeo di rotošitšwego ke bahlomphegi bao ba boletšego pele ga ka. Ke nyaka go leboga ka kudu tšeo di rotošitšwego, kudukudu ge ba be ba lemoša gore re a e hloka yona palamente ye. Ke therešo gore re a e hloka ka ge re e kwešiša.

Ke a kgolwa gore mohlomphegi Mme MmaMbuyazi ge a šoma kua karolongkgetho ya gagwe o kwešiša gabotsebotse gore bothata ke eng ka gore dinyakwa tša batho ba gaborena di swanetše gore di thuše le bao ba tšwago dinageng tša kantle, le gore re be re se ra beakanya tšhelete ya gore batho ba le bona re ka ba thuša. Ke ka moo re swanetšego gore palamente ye ya SADC e be le maatla a gore melao e beiwe; gore re šomišana bjang le dinagamabapi tše gore dinyakwa tše tša rena ge di gogwa ke ba go tšwa dinageng tša kantle, re ka šomišana bjang le baetapele ba bona.

Ge ke boela go mohlomphegi Mna Eglin, ke kwešiša gabotsebotse nhla yeo a e laetšago. Gape ke rata go mo gopotša gore dilo tše ntši ge re di lebelela mo kontinenteng ya rena, ka ge re sa bolele maleme ao a swanago gomme re sa tšwe mafelong ao a swanago, re hwetša e le gore tsela yeo re šomago ka yona le yona ga e swane. Gantši ka sekgowa ba tle ba re go na le ``a working culture’’. Rena re le baetapele ba Afrika-Borwa, a re eteng pele kontinente ye gomme re ba thuše, re ba laetše gore ke sefe seo se swanetšego go dirwa. Ge ke e tla go mohlomphegi Mna Mogoba, aowa bishopo, ke go kwele; eupša ga ke dumelelane nago Monare. Re ka se leboge bao ba bego ba re busa ka tsela ya bokoloni. Re ka se ba leboge le gannyane. Ba re senyeditše ka kudukudukudu. Nkabe re tšwetše pele ge nkabe ba se ba tle. Eupša re a bona gore nako yeo ba re senyeditšego yona re leka gore re kitime, re lokise ditaba tšeo ba re senyeditšego tšona.

Ke kgopela gore re ke re leboge gape le mohlomphegi Mna Geldenhuys. Ke a bona gore dinhla tšeo a di laeditšego di bohlokwa ka kudu ka gore ge re sa ngangišane ka taba ye, ra leka go lebelela tshepedišo ya yona, re ka se holege. Ke therešo gore nka se ke ka no tloga mo ke sa tsebe gore ye ya rena Palamente e nyaka gore re šomišane bjang le palamente ya SADC. Ke ka mokgwa woo, ge re setse re boledišane ka dilo tše ka moka, re tlago swanela go dumelelana gore ke dife dilo tšeo baetapele ba Afrika Borwa bao re emelago ka go SADC ba swanetšego gore ba di iše moo gore di dirwe ka botlalo.

Aowa Modulasetulo, ke a bona ka mokgwa woo diboledi tše ntsi di boletšego ka gona, di laetša gore re a e hloka e bile re a e nyaka palamente ye. Eupša re re mathata ao a lego gona a a lokišwe gore e tle e šome ka tsela ya tshwanelo. Ga ke nyake gore ke tšeye nako ye ntši, ka ge ke kwešiša gore maloko ke kgale a dutše mo, bontši bja wona bo šetše bo thapile ka kudukudu gomme ba nyaka go ya go khutša. Ke a leboga. [Legofsi.] (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[I want to remind people, when we talk about 30% today, that it did not just happen. The 30% came about because of our fight for freedom, to understand the needs of humanity and because the ANC told itself that women will be here. The sad thing is that at the moment that is only done by the ANC organisation. This means that if other organisations were to win the elections, it would be a step backwards. There would be no women in Parliament. Women would go back to fetching water and firewood. That is not a woman’s only job. [Applause.] In that, my understanding is that if the political organisations that are represented in Parliament are all committed, it would not matter who the ruling party is, we would always know that the needs of women are being addressed; they would not be overlooked.

Before I sit down, I would like to go back to some of the comments made by hon members who spoke before me. I want to appreciate what was raised, especially when they indicated that we need this Parliament. It is true that we need it as we understand it.

I believe that when the hon Mrs Mbuyazi works in her constituency she understands the problem well, because the needs of our people should also include help to foreigners, and we have not yet budgeted to help these foreigners. Hence we should empower the SADC parliament to make laws and find a way to work together with these neighbouring countries so that when foreigners use our resources we may have a way to deal with their leaders.

Going back to hon Mr Eglin, I understand the point that he raised very well. I also want to remind him that when we look at many things on our continent, as we do not speak the same languages because we are not from the same areas, we find that the way we do things is not the same. In English we usually say there is ``a working culture’’. As the South African leaders, let us lead this continent and help them, and show them what should be done.

Coming to the hon Mr Mogoba, the bishop, I heard you; but I do not agree with you, Monare. We cannot thank those who governed us the colonial way. We cannot even thank them a bit. They spoilt things very badly. We could have gone very far had they not come. But we see the time that they wasted and we should make it snappy and address the things that they spoilt.

I would also like to thank the hon Mr Geldenhuys. I can see that the points he raised are very important because if we do not debate this issue, and try to look at its procedures, we will not get anywhere. It is true that I cannot just go without knowing how our Parliament wants us to work with the SADC parliament. That is why, after we have talked about all these things, we will have to agree as to what our South African leaders who represent us in SADC should take to SADC to be addressed in full.

Chairperson, I see that the way most speakers have spoken shows that we are poor and we want this parliament. But we say that the existing problems should be properly addressed. I do not want to take up much time, as I understand that members have remained for a long time, most of them are already tired and want to rest. I thank you. [Applause.]]

Debate concluded. ANTI-PERSONNEL MINES PROHIBITION BILL

                       (Consideration of Bill)

There was no debate.

Bill agreed to.

The House adjourned at 17:59. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Bills passed by Houses - to be submitted to President for assent:

 (1)    Bill passed by National Assembly on 25 June 2003:


     (i)     Anti-Personnel  Mines  Prohibition  Bill  [B  44D  -  2002]
          (National Assembly - sec 75). National Assembly:

1. Membership of Assembly:

 (a)    The vacancy which occurred owing to Mr M D  Msomi  vacating  his
     seat with effect from 19 June 2003, has  been  filled  with  effect
     from 23 June 2003 by the nomination of Ms M M Mdlalose.


 (b)    The vacancy which occurred owing to Mr P Uys vacating his seat
     has been filled with effect from 25 June 2003 by the nomination of
     Ms C B Johnson.

1. Membership of Committees:

 (1)    Mr M K Lekgoro has been elected as Chairperson of the  Portfolio
     Committee on Communications with effect from 25 June 2003.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly:

Papers:

1. The Speaker:

 (1)    Special Report of the Auditor-General pertaining to Allegations
     on the Joint Investigating Team (JIT) Arms Deal Report [RP 56-
     2003].


 (2)    A letter from the Minister of Communications dated 6 June 2003
     addressed to the Speaker of the National Assembly informing her of
     the appointment of a new South African Broadcasting Corporation
     (SABC) Board of Directors.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Ad Hoc Joint Committee on Reparations, dated 24 June 2003:

 1.     Introduction
     The Ad Hoc Joint Committee on Reparations (the Committee) has been
     established by decision of the Speaker and the Chairperson of the
     National Council of Provinces to consider recommendations made by
     the President in terms of section 27 of the Promotion of National
     Unity and Reconciliation Act (Act No. 34 of 1995).


     The Committee first met on 3 June 2003 and elected two co-
     chairpersons, Mr A Mlangeni and Ms N C Kondlo, according to the
     Rule 55 of the Joint Rules of Parliament. The Committee met for
     the second time on 10 June 2003 and identified four key
     recommendations from the President's speech delivered to the Joint
     Sitting of Parliament held on 15 April 2003, namely:


    (i)      symbols and monuments; (ii) rehabilitation of communities;
          (iii) medical benefits and other forms of social  assistance;
          and (iv) final reparations.


     The Committee also appointed a subcommittee  to  advise  it  on  an
     appropriate response by Parliament to  these  recommendations.  The
     subcommittee met on  11,  12,  17  and  23  June  to  consider  the
     recommendations, as well as written  public  comments  received  in
     this regard, and submitted a report to the Committee  on  24  June,
     which report was accepted and adopted as the final  report  of  the
     Committee.


 2.     Context


     The Committee proposes that the four recommendations identified be
     grouped into two main categories, namely:


     *  Recommendations that seek to redress injustices of the  past  in
          a more holistic manner  by  focusing  on  gross  human  rights
          violations inflicted upon whole communities  and  the  broader
          society, on the one hand; and


     *   Recommendations  that  seek  to  redress  gross  human   rights
          violations suffered by individual victims  identified  through
          the TRC process by granting them some degree of relief.


     A view was expressed, but not carried, that victims as defined in
     the Act and the reparations due to them, as defined, are governed
     by sections 3, 4, 5, 25, and 26 of the Act, and that symbolic or
     community recognition cannot serve as a substitute for inadequate
     individual reparations. Alongside adequate reparations, they would
     be a welcome addition.


     The Committee rejects the assertion that the Act was aimed
     exclusively at the granting of reparation to individuals only and
     not in granting redress to communities and the broader society for
     harm suffered as a result of gross human rights violations of the
     past.


     In addition, the Committee rejects the contention that symbolic
     and community recognition serves as a substitute for what is
     perceived to be inadequate individual reparation.


 3.     Recommendations


     3.1     Symbols and Monuments
          The Committee supports the President's recommendation calling
          for systematic programmes to project the symbolism of struggle
          and the ideal of freedom through academic and informal records
          of history, cultural and art forms, erecting symbols and
          monuments that exalt the freedom struggle, including new
          geographic and place names.


          The Committee notes the work that has already commenced at
          various levels of government in this regard. This includes
          work-in-progress towards the establishment of Freedom Park,
          the Garden of Peace and the renaming of streets and towns in
          various parts of the country.


          The Committee, having deliberated on the matter, agrees that
          the focus here is on the struggle that led to the current
          democratic dispensation ushered by the new constitutional
          order in 1994. In this regard, the Committee, having further
          deliberated on the matter, is of the view that unity and
          reconciliation should also be projected in such symbols.


     3.2 Rehabilitation of Communities


          The Committee supports the government's commitment to the
          continued placement of special emphasis on the rehabilitation
          of communities that were subjected to intense acts of violence
          and destruction. The Committee notes the work that has already
          begun in this area and endorses the focus on a partnership
          approach between communities and government in pursuit of this
          objective.


          The Committee, having deliberated extensively on the matter,
          agrees with the view that not only individuals but also whole
          communities suffered and are still in distress.  It therefore
          recognises the need for such communities to be rehabilitated
          through various programmes, such as alluded to by the
          President.


     3.3     Medical Benefits and other forms of Social assistance


          With regard to the specific cases of individual victims
          identified by the Act, the Committee notes the assurance given
          by the President of programmes put in place to provide for
          medical benefits, education assistance and provision of
          housing as well as other social benefits to address the needs
          of individual victims identified by the Act.


          In this regard, the Committee's attention was drawn to the
          assertion in the TRC report that "the failure of the
          responsible government bodies to provide the required
          information, combined with the fact that victims return
          constantly to the President's Fund and the RRC empty-handed,
          points to a complete breakdown in the agreement forged between
          government (inter-Ministerial Committee on Reparation) and the
          RRC". 1


          The Committee therefore proposes that Parliament, in line with
          its oversight role, be provided with regular reports by
          government on progress made in this regard at least once a
          year.


     3.4     Final Reparations


          The Committee, having considered the President's
          recommendations regarding final reparations, endorses the
          commitment of the government to provide a one-off grant of
          R30,000 to those individuals or survivors designated by the
          TRC, over and above the other material commitments already
          mentioned.


          The Committee notes, but does not accept, the contentions put
          forward that the amount proposed is inadequate and that at
          minimum the 2975 declared victims whose rights to seek legal
          recourse against successful amnesty applicants for damages
          have been extinguished, are entitled to assessment of the
          losses suffered and to commensurate compensation.


 4.     Conclusion


     The Committee therefore recommends that Parliament accept the four
     recommendations made by the President, as identified in this
     Report. Further, the Committee anticipates that all the necessary
     practical arrangements for the effective implementation of these
     recommendations will be provided for in the regulations to be
     promulgated and implemented by the President in accordance with
     the provisions of the Act.


 Report to be considered.

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Standing Committee on Private Members’ Legislative Proposals and Special Petitions on the proposed Medical Schemes Amendment Bill, dated 18 June 2003:

   The Standing Committee on Private Members’ Legislative Proposals and Special Petitions, having considered the proposed Medical Schemes Amendment Bill, submitted by Mr B G Bell and referred to the Committee, recommends, in accordance with Rule 235(4), that the proposal not be proceeded with.

   The Committee further reports that, while it has sympathy with the intention of the proposer to assist Medical Aid Members that are on retirement, it is of the opinion that the above proposal does not address the matter.

   The Committee believes that this matter should be addressed, and therefore advises that the proposer take up the matter with the Departments of Health and of Labour, and, if possible, with NEDLAC.

   The Committee notes the dissent of the Democratic Alliance.

 Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Standing Committee on Private Members’ Legislative Proposals and Special Petitions on the proposed Patents Amendment Bill, dated 18 June 2003:

   The Standing Committee on Private Members’ Legislative Proposals and Special Petitions, having considered the proposed Patents Amendment Bill, submitted by Mrs S V Kalyan and referred to the Committee, recommends, in accordance with Rule 235(4), that the proposal not be proceeded with.

 Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism on the Southern African Development Community Protocol on Fisheries, dated 24 June 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Southern African Development Community Protocol on Fisheries, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Protocol.

 Request to be considered.