National Council of Provinces - 29 October 2002
TUESDAY, 29 OCTOBER 2002 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
____
The Council met at 15:07.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.
ABSENCE OF MEMBERS OF EXECUTIVE DURING QUESTION TIME
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! The first item on the Order Paper is Questions. We will therefore proceed to Questions that are on the Question Paper.
I am extremely concerned to note that members of the executive have not deigned to appear in the House. We had this experience more than two years ago. I am not sure what the reasons are, because we had confirmation. We are pleased that the Ministry of Finance is here.
I am perturbed by this and I shall, of course, indicate my concern to the Leader of Government Business, the Deputy President. We will, however, proceed. The House cannot be held back in terms of dealing with its business.
QUESTIONS AND REPLIES - see that book.
NOTICE OF MOTION
Mr C ACKERMANN: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the Council, I shall move:
That the Council notes that -
(1) Ms Brigalia Bam of the IEC declared that the DA had suffered the largest losses of all political parties during the crossover period;
(2) the DA has been reduced by more than a quarter at municipal level;
(3) what is left of the DA will also join in fleeing from its leader Tony Leon during the following window period and election;
(4) the DA’s scare tactics in portraying the ANC as some sort of arch demon have backfired dramatically - 51 DA members have joined the ANC, 340 councillors have joined the New NP in coalition with the ANC, and 22 councillors of the UCDP, a partner of the DA, have also taken up ANC membership; and
(5) such scare tactics are outdated and therefore do not contribute to nation-building.
[Interjections.] [Applause.]
NEW MAYOR OF CAPE TOWN
(Draft Resolution)
Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) congratulates alderman Nomaindia Mfeketo on her appointment as the new mayor of the City of Cape Town and welcomes the removal of Gerald Morkel from the mayoral office of the City of Cape Town by the ANC- New NP-led council today;
(2) notes that Mr Morkel’s removal confirms widely held views that the former caretaker mayor of this city has irretrievably tainted the credibility and image of himself and his party, the ``Dead Alliance’’, through -
(a) their notorious association with a German fugitive who is wanted
on the European continent on numerous charges connected with
commercial and financial crimes;
(b) his unashamed abuse of public office to acquire privately
sponsored accommodation and the trappings that go with it,
whilst poverty is out of control in the townships of Cape Town;
and
(c) his boundless contempt for the intelligence of his own
constituency as he stumbles from one flimsy damage-control
exercise to another; and
(3) believes that under the leadership of the new ANC mayor, Nomaindia Mfeketo, good governance, delivery to the poor, dignity and integrity will be restored to the City of Cape Town. Yena Nomaindia Mfeketo, Yena!
[Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Is there any objection to the motion? There is an objection. The motion will therefore become a notice of motion.
LEKGOTLA BETWEEN PRESIDENT MBEKI AND FORMER PRESIDENT F W DE KLERK
(Draft Resolution)
Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes -
(a) the current Lekgotla taking place between President Mbeki and
former President F W de Klerk, including cabinet ministers,
business groups, educationists and clerics;
(b) that the Lekgotla is an ongoing initiative and the second of its
kind, looking at ways to heal the country of its apartheid past,
and to forge unity and a common identity among all South
Africans;
(c) the pride South Africa can take in its leadership that extends
beyond party-political lines to ensure a national culture that
emphasises a country open to all its people to live in; and
(d) that we are further reminded of a statement made by Mr De Klerk
in a recent interview, where he said: "We need a political
realignment which moves away from ethnicity and race-based
politics towards value-based politics."; and
(2) therefore -
(a) commends the two leaders for their ongoing commitment to a
genuine South Africa of unity and strength;
(b) wishes them every success on the two day deliberations; and
(c) further commits itself to work towards the same goals and
objectives of nation-building to which our leaders are
committed, including building value-based politics.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
THE RIGHTS OF THE CHILD
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes that this month is dedicated to the rights of the child;
(2) recognises and commends the Government for promoting public awareness of the rights of the child through the print and electronic media;
(3) welcomes the initiatives of the Department of Social Development, including the maintenance of a register of street children, developing an appropriate protocol in relation to child abuse, and further widening the net of social security;
(4) further commends the Ministry for its efforts in reaching out to children, particularly in rural areas, who could not access child grants previously;
(5) acknowledges that today the Minister of Finance announced a 27,5% increase in child grants; and
(6) urges all members to promote and support the rights of the child in their various constituencies.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
DENIAL OF CUSTODY OVER CHILD
(Draft Resolution)
Mr D M KGWARE: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes with concern the decision by a United States court to deny the South African family of a child born in this country custody over the child because, in the opinion of the court, South Africa was not a safe place for children to live in;
(2) further notes that the court’s decision was largely influenced by the evidence of a former South African-born American academic who portrayed her country of birth in the most negative of terms;
(3) expresses its concern that in this particular case the decision that South Africa was not a safe place for children to live in was based on the assessment of this single individual and not an official channel like the South African Embassy or Consulate; and
(4) resolves to extend a cordial invitation to this particular academic and judge to come and experience first-hand the positive changes that have taken place in our country.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE COUNCIL: Order! Before I put that motion, I assume the invitation is at your cost, hon member. [Laughter.]
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
NEW EDUCATION CURRICULUM
(Draft Resolution)
Ms J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes that the Department of Education has released a new education curriculum for comment from the public;
(2) further notes that this curriculum is expected to produce pupils who can identify and solve problems and make decisions using critical and creative thinking;
(3) believes that this curriculum will instil in our young citizens the values that promote the interest of society based on respect for democracy, equality, human dignity and social justice; and
(4) therefore applauds the Minister of Education for his commitment to improve the education system in South Africa.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
TRANSFER OF WRITTEN QUESTIONS TO ORAL QUESTIONS
(Draft Resolution)
Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes with extreme concern that 10 written questions to Ministers had to be transferred today in accordance with Rule 239 to oral questions because the Ministries and Departments of the responsible Cabinet Ministers have failed to reply in writing within the prescribed period;
(2) further notes that -
(a) some of the questions transferred today date back to August 2002
whilst the Internal Question Paper of Friday, 25 October 2002,
reflects that there are written replies outstanding since May
and June 2002;
(b) the failure to reply timeously to written questions shows
serious contempt for the Rules of this Council which deal with
written replies and also results in Ministers unnecessarily
having to come to Parliament to answer questions - time which
could have been spent more productively elsewhere; and
(3) makes a friendly but urgent request to Cabinet Ministers to ensure that their Ministries and Departments adopt a more positive attitude and display a sense of responsibility when it comes to answering written questions from members of this Council.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
PORT ELIZABETH TO BECOME TOURIST DESTINATION
(Draft Resolution)
Ms E C GOUWS: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) takes cognisance of the fact that Port Elizabeth is set to become a premier destination for tourists from Scandinavian countries; and
(2) notes -
(a) that SAAB Technologies, a leading Scandinavian defence,
aerospace and communications group, contributed R16 million to
upgrade and renovate McArthur Baths;
(b) that this development is intended to be the "centrepiece" of a
major drive to attract tourists and make the Eastern Cape a
major tourist destination for Scandinavian holidaymakers;
(c) that the sale of flight tickets and hotel accommodation as a
result of this initiative has been nothing short of phenomenal;
and
(d) the creation of jobs in the catering and leisure sector and the
empowerment of a number of local companies.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
ALLEGED SCHOOLBOY RAPIST
(Draft Resolution)
Rev M CHABAKU: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes with extreme concern a report in a Sunday newspaper about an eleven-year-old boy who allegedly raped some of his classmates after their class was left unsupervised for a week;
(2) further notes that according to this newspaper the parents of the affected schoolgirls informed the school about their suspicions but that the school did not immediately inform the police about the alleged rapes;
(3) believes this serious dereliction of duty on the part of the school authorities warrants an immediate investigation;
(4) calls upon the relevant provincial education department to take appropriate steps to hold whoever is responsible for the smooth running of the school accountable for the suffering of these little girls; and
(5) expresses its disappointment at the report that this young boy had to be detained “for his protection” at a juvenile detention place. Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONGRATULATIONS TO TWO LEARNERS FROM VOORTREKKER HIGH SCHOOL
(Draft Resolution)
Ms C-S BOTHA: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes that two learners from Voortrekker High School in Bethlehem in the Eastern Free State, Laurine Scheepers and Sunicke de Klerk, each won two gold medals for classical and contemporary music at the world championship for arts in Los Angeles in the USA; and
(2) congratulates these two young women on their hours of hard work that made this outstanding achievement for their country possible.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
SUICIDES AMONG MEMBERS OF SA POLICE SERVICE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr P A MATTHEE: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes that, during the period 1 September 2001 to 31 August 2002, 84 members of the SA Police Service committed suicide and that stress- related symptoms led to the resignation of 1 298 members of the SA Police Service during the same period;
(2) expresses its concern regarding this unacceptable situation and expresses its sincerest condolences to the families and friends of those members who have died so untimeously; and
(3) requests the Government to take all steps which may be necessary to effectively address this state of affairs, including ensuring that there are sufficient psychiatrists, psychologists, chaplains and social workers available to adequately attend to the needs of all members of the SA Police Service.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON LAND AND ENVIRONMENTAL
AFFAIRS - STUDY TOUR TO MALAYSIA
Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson and hon members, I am making a statement on the study tour to Malaysia. The Parliament of the Republic of South Africa has a policy in terms of which it encourages its members to develop skills, knowledge and competencies which are appropriate to their performing their public duties efficiently and effectively.
One of the mechanisms through which this objective can be achieved is the undertaking of study tours to countries at a similar stage of development as South Africa. In light of this policy, the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs undertook a study tour to Malaysia to learn how this particular country has been dealing with problems encountered in the field of agriculture, fishing, agritourism and technical co-operation with other developing countries.
The tour was undertaken by a multiparty delegation, and we were highly impressed by the innovative approach taken by Malaysia, particularly with respect to the problems surrounding emerging farmers and small-scale fishers. Malaysia has worked effectively to overcome problems in these sectors within a sustainable development context, and we left with the impression that our country had important lessons to learn from their initiatives.
Our delegation received briefings on a number of policy processes and programmes, including development planning in Malaysia, the Malaysian Technical Co-operation Programme, and the country’s third national agricultural policy. We also paid on-site visits to a number of very successful projects, such as the aquaculture project, an agrotechnological park, a agrotourism project, a women’s extension group project, and group farming projects. On the basis of this visit, the delegation has made a number of recommendations on the kinds of strategies we can employ to accelerate agricultural development in our own country.
South Africa should consider drawing up a widely consulted development plan along the lines of the Malaysian Vision 2020 plan. Such an overall development plan could be supplemented by other plans for development in the most significant sectors of agriculture, trade and industry.
The Department of Agriculture should investigate the possibility of setting up agrotechnology parks, which could become centres in which the entrepreneurial spirit of small farmers is developed with a view to their becoming commercial farmers. The parks would also be sites where technical and financial assistance could be channelled to emerging farmers on a systematic basis.
The Department of Agriculture should adopt the strategy of encouraging group farming activities to ensure the pooling of resources by emerging farmers. This would enable them to benefit from economies of scale which will smooth their transition to commercial farming. Technical assistance in the fields of management and marketing could also be supplied to them more efficiently.
South Africa could emulate the Malaysian model of women’s groups. This would enable especially rural women to engage in economic activities, thereby increasing the income potential of rural families. The Malaysian model of agrotourism should be further examined with a view to implementing a similar model in South Africa. This will further increase the income potential of rural communities.
The development of aquaculture should be seriously considered with a view to solving the problem of our diminishing marine resources, which results in our fishing communities being left without fishing rights. Fish from this source would also be a cheap supplementary source of protein to bolster our food stock. South Africa should also take advantage of the assistance offered by the Malyasian Technical Co-operation Programme in the field of human resource development.
In conclusion, Malaysia is a progressive developing nation with huge dreams for the future. South Africa has much to learn from this country, especially in the field of economic planning, and from their strategies for the development and unlocking of the entrepreneurial spirit of their people. There is also much room for co-operation between South Africa and Malaysia in the technical field, especially with respect to aquaculture.
Tlogatloga e tloga gale, modisa kgomo o tswa natso sakeng. Kodumela meopathutse, ga go lehumo le tswang gaufi. Motswagae ga a laele. [Legofi.] (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[People must make preparations in good time. Success comes through hard work. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! That concludes the debate on this particular report. Only the chairperson of the committee indicated that he wished to address the House.
The report was presented as a report to be considered. Given the various aspects that impinge on executive action and that make policy proposals, it is the view of the Chair that this report should not be voted upon as though it has been considered in the manner in which we agree, in this instance, that this particular economic and other policy the House would adopt to direct the executive to execute. In my view this would move beyond the ambit of the House.
I therefore would suggest that it be agreed that the report has been presented and noted and that should the committee wish to make further examination with respect to policy and recommendations, it could then come back to the House to decide on matters that we would wish to agree we pursue by way of decision of the House.
We therefore will not proceed to ask provinces to indicate a mandate by voting at this time. We note the report and thank the committee, one of the few committees that has submitted a report on an international visit. So we appreciate that work. It adheres to the kind of standard we have been asking for.
Report noted.
The Council adjourned at 16:27. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS: National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- The Speaker and the Chairperson:
(1) The following Bill was introduced by the Minister of Finance in
the National Assembly on 29 October 2002 and referred to the Joint
Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule
160:
(i) Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 66 - 2002] (National
Assembly - sec 77).
The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance
of the National Assembly.
In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
the Bills may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
within three parliamentary working days.
National Council of Provinces:
- The Chairperson:
(1) Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:
Bill passed by National Assembly on 29 October 2002 and
transmitted for concurrence:
(i) Medicines and Related Substances Amendment Bill [B 40B -
2002] (National Assembly - sec 75) (referred to Select
Committee on Social Services).
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
-
The President: Report and Financial Statements of The Presidency - Vote 1 for 2001- 2002, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002 [RP 220-2002].
-
The Minister of Finance:
(a) Medium Term Budget Policy Statement 2002 [RP 222-2002].
(b) Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 66 - 2002].
(c) Adjusted Estimates of National Expenditure 2002 [RP 223-2002],
which includes:
1. Memorandum on Vote No 1 - "Presidency", Adjustments Estimates,
2002-2003;
2. Memorandum on Vote No 2 - "Parliament", Adjustments Estimates,
2002-2003;
3. Memorandum on Vote No 3 - "Foreign Affairs", Adjustments
Estimates, 2002-2003;
4. Memorandum on Vote No 4 - "Home Affairs", Adjustments
Estimates, 2002-2003;
5. Memorandum on Vote No 5 - "Provincial and Local Government",
Adjustments Estimates, 2002-2003;
6. Memorandum on Vote No 6 - "Public Works", Adjustments
Estimates, 2002-2003;
7. Memorandum on Vote No 7 - "Government Communications and
Information System", Adjustments Estimates, 2002-2003;
8. Memorandum on Vote No 8 - "National Treasury", Adjustments
Estimates, 2002-2003;
9. Memorandum on Vote No 9 - "Public Enterprises", Adjustments
Estimates, 2002-2003;
10. Memorandum on Vote No 10 - "Public Service and
Administration", Adjustments Estimates, 2002-2003;
11. Memorandum on Vote No 11 - "Public Service Commission",
Adjustments Estimates, 2002-2003;
12. Memorandum on Vote No 12 - "South African Management
Development Institute", Adjustments Estimates, 2002-2003;
13. Memorandum on Vote No 13 - "Statistics South Africa",
Adjustments Estimates, 2002-2003;
14. Memorandum on Vote No 14 - "Arts, Culture, Science and
Technology", Adjustments Estimates, 2002-2003;
15. Memorandum on Vote No 15 - "Education", Adjustments
Estimates, 2002-2003;
16. Memorandum on Vote No 16 - "Health", Adjustments
Estimates, 2002-2003;
17. Memorandum on Vote No 17 - "Housing", Adjustments
Estimates, 2002-2003;
18. Memorandum on Vote No 18 - "Social Development",
Adjustments Estimates, 2002-2003;
19. Memorandum on Vote No 19 - "Sport and Recreation South
Africa", Adjustments Estimates, 2002-2003;
20. Memorandum on Vote No 20 - "Correctional Services",
Adjustments Estimates, 2002-2003;
21. Memorandum on Vote No 21 - "Defence", Adjustments
Estimates, 2002-2003;
22. Memorandum on Vote No 22 - "Independent Complaints
Directorate", Adjustments Estimates, 2002-2003;
23. Memorandum on Vote No 23 - "Justice and Constitutional
Development", Adjustments Estimates, 2002-2003;
24. Memorandum on Vote No 24 - "Safety and Security",
Adjustments Estimates, 2002-2003;
25. Memorandum on Vote No 25 - "Agriculture", Adjustments
Estimates, 2002-2003;
26. Memorandum on Vote No 26 - "Communications", Adjustments
Estimates, 2002-2003;
27. Memorandum on Vote No 27 - "Environmental Affairs and
Tourism", Adjustments Estimates, 2002-2003;
28. Memorandum on Vote No 28 - "Labour", Adjustments
Estimates, 2002-2003;
29. Memorandum on Vote No 29 - "Land Affairs", Adjustments
Estimates, 2002-2003;
30. Memorandum on Vote No 30 - "Minerals and Energy",
Adjustments Estimates, 2002-2003;
31. Memorandum on Vote No 31 - "Trade and Industry",
Adjustments Estimates, 2002-2003;
32. Memorandum on Vote No 32 - "Transport", Adjustments
Estimates, 2002-2003;
33. Memorandum on Vote No 33 - "Water Affairs and Forestry",
Adjustments Estimates, 2002-2003;
34. Memorandum on Vote No 34 - "Arts and Culture", Adjustments
Estimates, 2002-2003;
35. Memorandum on Vote No 35 - "Science and Technology",
Adjustments Estimates, 2002-2003.
- The Minister of Trade and Industry:
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the Competition Commission
for 2001-2002, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements for 2001-2002 [RP 144-2002].
(b) Report of the Export Credit Insurance Corporation of South
Africa Limited for 2001-2002.
- The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:
(a) Treaties between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
and the Governments of the Arab Republic of Egypt, the Democratic
People's Republic of Algeria, the Federal Republic of Nigeria and
the People's Republic of China on Extradition, tabled in terms of
section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.
(b) Explanatory Memorandum to the Treaties.
(c) Treaties between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
and the Governments of the Arab Republic of Egypt, the Democratic
People's Republic of Algeria, the Federal Republic of Nigeria and
the French Republic on Mutual Legal Assistance, tabled in terms of
section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.
(d) Explanatory Memorandum to the Treaties.