WEDNESDAY, 11 SEPTEMBER 2002 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 15:02.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr S D MONTSITSI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that 12 September 2002 marks the 25th anniversary of the cowardly killing of Comrade Steve Bantu Biko;

(2) believes that this patriot played an important role in the struggle for the liberation of South Africa; and

(3) salutes this fallen hero of our country.

[Applause.]

Mr M WATERS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes with shock and outrage the horrific injuries sustained by a six- year-old rape victim in Johannesburg;

(2) further notes that -

   (a)  doctors had to perform surgery to repair injuries which left her
       colon hanging out and which ripped away  the  skin  between  her
       vagina and rectum; and


   (b)  this is by no means an isolated case;

(3) expresses its revulsion at the continued rape of children, with about 21 500 children raped in 2000 alone, with only 8% of these cases resulting in convictions, and that statistics for 2001 are incomplete; and

(4) condemns the abject failure of the ANC Government to fulfil its promise to protect our children.

Mr M A MZIZI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) notes that the infamous Sands Hotel in Hillbrow has been closed down and vacated after a high court interdict was granted to close the hotel;

(2) further notes that according to a police spokesperson, the hotel was well known for drug dealers operating their illegal businesses from the premises;

(3) congratulates all involved in the closure of this hotel; and

(4) hopes that this serves as a warning to similar establishments that they could face the same action if they do not rectify their problems.

Ms H M MPAKA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that - (a) the ANC Youth League, ANCYL, launched its 58th anniversary celebrations on 10 September 2002;

   (b)  the Youth League has acted as  a  disciplined  body  of  opinion
       within the ANC, and has become a  political  and  organisational
       preparatory school for young revolutionaries to play  a  leading
       role within the ANC and in society; and


   (c)  the ANC Youth League as an organisation nurtured ANC  cadres  of
       highest stature such as O R Tambo, N Rolihlahla Mandela,  Walter
       Sisulu, Peter Mokaba, and many others;

(2) believes that the organisation has played an important role in transmitting revolutionary traditions of the older generations to younger activists and has influenced ANC politics and methods of struggle to meet the new and changing political environment; and

(3) joins the ANC Youth League in celebrating its 58th anniversary and makes a clarion call to all youth in our country to continue along the path of the founder members.

Dr W A ODENDAAL: Mev die Speaker, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek gaan voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) met skok kennis neem van die bewerings dat die leier van die DA, die agbare Tony Leon, klaarblyklik gereël het, of ten minste toegelaat het, dat sy persoonlike beeldpoetser, mnr Ryan Coetzee, ‘n addisionele salaris van R33 000 per maand uit belastingbetalersgeld ontvang vir sogenaamde strategiese advies wat hy aan die destydse Premier en DA-leier van Wes-Kaapland, mnr Gerald Morkel, gegee het;

(2) daarop aandring dat, indien die bewerings korrek bevind word dat hierdie soort uitspattige vergoedingspakkette wel aan DA-``fat cats’’ uitgedeel is, daardie geld teruggevorder word en eerder aangewend word om armoede in die Wes-Kaap te verlig; en

(3) met arendsoë waak teen dieselfde soort verregaande spandabelrigheid in stadsrade, soos Kaapstad, wat tans nog deur die DA beheer word. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Dr W A ODENDAAL: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes with shock the allegations that the leader of the DA, Mr Tony Leon, apparently arranged for, or at least allowed, his personal spin doctor, Mr Ryan Coetzee, to receive an additional salary of R33 000 per month from taxpayers money for so-called strategic advice which he had provided to the then Premier and DA leader of the Western Cape, Mr Gerald Morkel;

(2) insists upon it that, if it is found that these allegations are true, that this type of excessive remuneration packages were dealt out to DA fat cats, that money be recovered and instead be used to alleviate poverty in the Western Cape; and

(3) guards with an eagle eye against the same type of extreme extravagance at city councils, such as Cape Town, which are at present still controlled by the DA.]

Mr J T MASEKA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I will move on behalf of the UDM at the next sitting of this House:

That the House -

(1) confirms that clean and effective governance at provincial level must be ensured as an integrated part of democracy in South Africa; (2) acknowledges that, in this regard, the role of provincial legislatures is important, since the democratically elected representatives of a province’s people provide oversight and input into the governance of the province;

(3) notes with dismay that internal political wrangling within the ANC in the Free State has resulted in the disruption of that province’s legislature due to the refusal of the Speaker to be removed by the newly elected ANC provincial executive;

(4) expresses its concern at the manner in which this incident is damaging the credibility of that legislature and bringing democratic governance into disrepute; and

(5) urges the ANC to get its house in order.

[Applause.]

Ms C M P RAMOTSAMAI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes reports that the SA Navy will transport 200 elephants and other animals being donated to replace wildlife killed during the 27-year civil war;

(2) believes that -

   (a)  this will help in restoring national parks in  Angola  and  will
       promote tourism and job creation, and this initiative is in line
       with the spirit of the  discussions  in  the  World  Summit  for
       Sustainable Development; and


   (b)  this initiative will contribute positively in the reconstruction
       and development of  Angola,  whose  natural  heritage  has  been
       destroyed by decades of civil war; and   (3) commends the governments of Botswana and South  Africa  for  donating
   wildlife to Angola.

[Applause.]

Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that the Speaker of the Free State Legislature refused to resign, although redeployed by the ANC to Parliament;

(2) further notes that the session of the legislature called for the swearing in of the new Speaker by the Judge President, was adjourned early by the outgoing Speaker to prevent the installation of the new Speaker;

(3) requests the President, in his capacity as leader of the ANC, to end the circus which is conducted by his party in the Free State, as the ANC, instead of placing the interests of the voters first, indulges in internal warfare and has made the Free State the laughing stock of South Africa.

Ms C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  advances in the field of natural medicine made over recent years
       can radically reduce the incidence of common  diseases  such  as
       heart attacks, cancer, stroke, diabetes, high blood pressure and
       many that affect developing countries;


   (b)  while  a  primary  cause  of  the  world's  most  common  health
       conditions is a chronic deficiency of  micronutrients  essential
       for optimum cellular  energy,  metabolism  as  well  as  optimum
       connective tissue stability, scientific knowledge  is  available
       and essential nutrients can be  produced  at  low  cost  in  any
       quantity anywhere in the world, this life-saving information  is
       being blocked due to little incentive to promote these promising
       avenues of medicine; and


   (c)  acknowledges that the pharmaceutical industry  is  dependent  on
       synthetic drugs that allow a high return on investment based  on
       patentability;


   (d)  however, this proven science of natural health  with  its  great
       potential for low-cost intervention, must be properly  explored,
       packaged and made available to the populace;

(2) calls on -

   (a)  the Government to facilitate  availability  of  this  avenue  of
       medicine by urgently  commissioning  a  committee  in  order  to
       access and assess all existing scientific  research  on  natural
       medicine, with a view to implementing natural  health  solutions
       in South Africa; and


   (b)  pharmaceutical  companies  to  make  greater  effort  ...  [Time
       Expired.]

Ms B P SONJICA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the week of 01 to 07 September 2002 was Deaf Awareness Week under the theme ``Accessibility Within an Inclusive Education System’’;

(2) believes that all learners, including disabled learners, have a right to equal access, equal opportunities and equal rights within one educational system; and

(3) calls on all stakeholders in our society, namely, the Government, business and all the people, to work towards the realisation of the rights of people with hearing impairment and for the development of the South African sign language.

[Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) notes the series of break-ins targeting DA computers with the purpose of stealing the party’s information and intellectual property;

(2) further notes that 17 such incidents have been reported since December 2001, affecting DA offices in six of the nine provinces;

(3) believes that the democratic process is being systematically undermined by this calculated targeting of the opposition; and (4) calls on the relevant agencies of justice to exhibit their commitment to preserving democracy in our country by ensuring that the criminal perpetrators are brought to justice.

[Applause.]

Prince N E ZULU: Madam Speaker, I give notice that I shall move on behalf of the IFP at the next sitting of the House:

That the House -

(1) welcomes the development of a new electoral law that will usher in accountability as a core value of our parliamentary system in servicing the electorate;

(2) desires that the research team, under the chairmanship of Dr Van Zyl Slabbert, receives the support of the country in its endeavour to accomplish its task within a set mandate;

(3) further welcomes the consideration that excellent as the current system of election is, it still requires the question of inclusivity to be revisited without obviating the high level of simplicity it offers to the voters; and

(4) calls on all stakeholders and role-players to unite in choosing an electoral system that will be best for the literate and the illiterate to serve their interests for many more years to come.

Mrs B TINTO: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the Minister of Labour, the hon Membathisi Mdladlana, visited Liwa Primary School in Nyanga on World Literacy Day on Monday, 09 September 2002;

(2) believes that - (a) the visit by the Minister contributes in the developing of a culture of reading and learning amongst school children and youth;

   (b)  a thoroughgoing programme of  transformation  requires,  amongst
       other things, patriots and youth  in  particular,  who  must  be
       seized with the task of engaging in scientific enquiry  to  meet
       the challenges of transformation; and


   (c)  that this task will be fulfilled only if we encourage a  culture
       of reading, and a quest for scientific knowledge;

(3) commends the hon Membathisi Mdladlana for visiting Liwa Primary School on World Literacy Day; and

(4) calls on all leaders in communities to encourage school children and youth to develop a culture of reading and learning in order to prepare themselves to play a leading role in building our country.

[Applause.]

Mnr J W LE ROUX: Mev die Speaker, ek gee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis kennis neem dat -

(1) die Nuwe NP besorg is oor die snerpende koue, sneeu en reën wat weer eens grootskaalse verliese in die Oos-Kaap teweeg bring en dít terwyl opruimingswerk na die swaar reën en oorstromings in Augustus nog aan die gang is;

(2) dit gelei het tot lewensverlies;

(3) talle Oos-Kapenaars se kragtoevoer afgesny is;

(4) boere groot verliese ly;

(5) paaie in sommige gebiede onbegaanbaar is; en (6) die Nuwe NP simpatiseer met die familie van rampslagoffers, sy dank uitspreek teenoor noodreddingswerkers wat uit hul pad gaan om bystand te verleen aan slagoffers en ‘n versoek aan die Regering rig om alle moontlike vorme van hulp te verleen. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr W J LE ROUX: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move:

That the House notes that -

(1) the New NP is concerned at the biting cold, snow and rains which have once again brought about large-scale losses in the Eastern Cape, even while mopping-up operations after the heavy rains and floods in August are still in progress;

(2) this has led to loss of life;

(3) the electricity supply to many people in the Eastern Cape has been cut off;

(4) farmers are suffering heavy losses;

(5) the roads in some areas are impassable; and

(6) the New NP sympathises with the families of victims of this disaster, expresses its gratitude to the emergency rescue workers who are going out of their way in rendering assistance to victims and appeals to the Government to provide all possible forms of relief.]

Mr S ABRAM: Madam Speaker, I give notice that I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  the despicable terror attacks which took place in the USA a year
       ago today and we remember all its victims; and


   (b)  the response of many nations to the war on terror has led to  an
       unprecedented increase in security and legislative  measures  to
       combat terrorism;

(2) views with seriousness the warning by Mary Robinson, the outgoing UN human rights chief, that antiterror legislation and prolonged detention of suspects without legal assistance are amongst measures which fall foul of basic rights;

(3) reiterates her view that human rights standards must again return to the forefront of concern; and

(4) calls upon all nations to be vigilant and to zealously protect basic human rights as the cornerstones of democracy and freedom, and not to sacrifice them in the name of the war on terror.

[Applause.]

                  LUXURY COACH TRAIN CRASH IN INDIA

                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes that approximately 100 people were killed when a luxury train coach crashed in Calcutta, India on 10 September 2002;

(2) expresses its sincere condolences to the families of the deceased and wishes the injured a speedy recovery; and

(3) joins the people of India in mourning this loss. Agreed to.

                      RYAN KILIAN'S HEROIC DEED

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr J DURAND: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) salutes Ryan Kilian, an eleven-year-old boy from Geduld, who in July grabbed 14 toddlers and babies from a nursery school van and took them to safety, while armed hijackers pressed a firearm to his head;

(2) commends this young boy for his heroic deed and brave action which saved the lives of this group of children, and joins with the East Rand police who are going to honour Ryan for exceptional bravery next week.

Agreed to.

REMEMBRANCE OF TERROR ATTACKS IN THE UNITED STATES ON 11 SEPTEMBER 2001

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) remembers the horror, devastation and loss of life brought about by the terror attacks in the United States on 11 September 2001;

(2) recognises that, one year later, the way forward is to work for understanding amongst people and the reconciliation of divergent viewpoints; and

(3) undertakes to foster tolerance and communication amongst our own people in an effort to build a peaceful future for our country and provide an example which others may follow. Agreed to.

EXTENSIVE DAMAGE CAUSED BY ADVERSE WEATHER CONDITIONS IN THE EASTERN CAPE AND NORTHERN PROVINCE

                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  that two people are reported missing at the Kei River Mouth near
       East London after being washed out to sea on their boat;


   (b)  extensive damage to property  as  a  result  of  floods  in  the
       Eastern Cape on 10 September 2002; and


   (c)  that a five-year-old boy lost his life when a fierce  storm  hit
       several villages outside Mokopane, in the Northern Province,  on
       the night of 9 September 2002; and

(2) expresses its sincere condolences to those who lost loved ones.

Agreed to.

                  PROBATION SERVICES AMENDMENT BILL

          (Consideration of Bill and of Report of thereon)

There was no debate.

Report adopted and Bill agreed to.

 THE CHALLENGE OF IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE OF DOMESTIC WORKERS,
         FARMWORKERS AND OTHER VULNERABLE GROUPS OF WORKERS

                      (Subject for discussion) Mr K A MOLOTO: Madam Speaker and hon members, South Africans have  committed themselves to building a humane, caring  and  prosperous  nation.  It  is  a commitment that arises from the  acknowledgement  that  apartheid  laws  are incompatible with democracy  and  the  need  for  labour  laws  that  ensure equitable distribution of the national wealth.

Indeed, most South Africans are shy when they realise that the majority of fellow South Africans experience abject poverty due to the malicious intentions of apartheid laws that encouraged greed and superexploitation of black people. The Stallard Commission of 1922 stated that:

Africans living in urban areas must minister to the needs of the white man and should depart therefrom when they have ceased so to minister.

It is these conditions of existence and labour relations that the majority of South Africans reject with utter contempt. It is these types of laws that treated them as subhumans and condemned them to poverty. All national efforts at that time were marshalled to solve the problem of the poor white.

No South African can be proud of the fact that the wealth in some of the richest families in South Africa is a product of cheap labour. They will be equally ashamed to realise that the real producers of that wealth are in abject poverty. It also needs to be pointed out that apartheid laws had a severe impact on the quality of life of domestic workers and farmworkers.

The labour relations in the commercial farming sector have been marked by superexploitation of farmworkers, and violence in certain instances. Even during periods of massive surge or boom in the exports of agricultural products, benefits hardly trickled down to these vulnerable workers. Payment through the barbarous tot system had far reaching consequences on the moral fabric of our society and led to deterioration in health conditions. The effects of it are still being felt even today. It is a national shame.

The domestic workers have been subjected to a servant-master relationship where there is no respect for domestic workers. They are called in derogatory terms, similar to those used during slavery, that is, nannies, servants, maids, and girls. My proud culture requires me to show utmost respect to elderly people. It makes one withdraw with shame to hear an elderly lady being called a girl. It defies everything I learnt from my late mother. Domestic workers render a valuable service to South Africans. Our productivity is enhanced by the service they provide.

Ka Sepedi ba re letsogo le lengwe le hlatswa ke le lengwe. Go na le polelo e nngwe gape e re mahlong a motho ga go swane le mahlong a mpša. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[In Sepedi we say, one hand washes the other. A human being cannot be equated to a dog.]

Literally it means that one hand washes another. A human being cannot be equated to a dog.

It is quite disturbing to realise that there are certain sections of our population who have the notion that there should be no state interference in the relations of workers, farmers, and their employers. Surely, we cannot allow the servant-master labour relations to coexist with democracy. Such relationships pose a serious threat to the survival of our democracy and constitute a violation of human rights.

There can never be a peaceful coexistence between democracy and superexploitation of domestic workers, farmworkers, and other vulnerable groups of workers. It is quite encouraging that there are employers who are even prepared to ensure that domestic workers receive training and better benefits. It brings great joy to realise that there are employers who even allow domestic workers to engage in trade union activity. They stand as a shining example to all of us.

There are commercial farmers who deserve a lot of praise. There are those who ensure that farmworkers receive housing and educational facilities for their children. There are even wine farmers who have allocated certain portions of their land to their workers to engage in co-operative activities. Such cases, few as they might be, bear testimony to the willingness of South Africans to defend our democracy and the right to a better life for fellow South Africans.

The ANC, the glorious liberation movement of our people, leads the fight for the better life for all South Africans. Our people support their glorious liberation movement in the realisation of this goal. All South Africans deserve a better life. Blood was shed for the realisation of the fruit of freedom. The ANC fought fearlessly for equality before the law. Our people have given us the mandate to change their lives for the better. We will defend their right to dignity with every fibre of our being.

Mokgatlo wa batho, ANC, o re bašomi ba ka malapeng le ba dipolaseng ba swanetšwe ke bophelo bjo bo kaone. Maphelo ao a lahlegilego ntweng ya tokologo ga se a lahlegela lefeela. ANC ke mokgatlo wa bahloki, bašomi le batho bao ba ratago tšwelopele ya bana ba thari e ntsho. Ga go na ka mokgwa o mokgatlo wa batho, ANC, o ka hlanogelago dinyakwa tša batho. O tla di lwela o sa boife selo. Nako ya go phediša batho bjalo ka makgoba e fedile. Re leboga thekgo yeo Ma-Afrika Borwa ba e fago mokgatlo wa bona, ANC. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[The glorious movement of our people, the ANC, says farmworkers and domestic workers need to lead better lives. Lives which were lost during the struggle for our freedom were not lost in vain. The ANC is the champion of the poor, the workers and those who love the advancement of the Africans. There is no way in which the glorious movement can turn its back on people’s needs. It will fight for them without fail. The era of ill- treating people like slaves is over. We are thankful for the support South Africans give to their glorious movement, the ANC.]

Let us celebrate the gains that these vulnerable workers have realised under the new democracy. Let us guard these gains jealously. They assist in defining us as human beings.

Alle werkers wat huishulpe en plaaswerkers in diens het, behoort hierdie verandering te verwelkom. Suid-Afrika kan nie sonder die belangrike dienste wat deur dié werknemers verrig word, klaarkom nie. Plaaswerkers is belangrik vir die versekering van voedselsekuriteit in die land. Die rol van huiswerkers onder moeilike omstandighede en teen lae lone moet vandag sterk waardeer word. Die ANC sal altyd aan hulle kant wees, want dit is hulle wat die leiers van môre grootmaak. Dit is ‘n jammerte dat van die mense wat deur hulle grootgemaak is, vandag teen die idee is dat hulle ook ‘n beter lewe moet kry. ‘n Beter lewe vir almal is ook vir huiswerkers en plaaswerkers. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[All workers who have domestic workers and farmworkers in their employ ought to welcome this change. South Africa cannot do without the important services which are rendered by these employees. Farmworkers are important in order to ensure food security in the country. The role of domestic workers, under difficult circumstances and for low wages, must today be highly valued. The ANC will always be on their side, because it is they who bring up the leaders of tomorrow. It is a pity that some of the people who were brought up by them are today opposed to the idea that they should also have a better life. A better life for everyone is also for domestic workers and farmworkers. [Applause.]]

Mr N J CLELLAND-STOKES: Madam Speaker, domestic and farmworkers are a vital part of South Africa’s economy. We believe that the challenge, regarding both, is to strike a balance between decent employment standards and flexibility in order to meet the needs of employers and at the same time maintaining or increasing the level of employment in these sectors.

Let me state clearly, from the outset, that the DA rejects slave wages. It urges employers to pay a decent wage for decent work, but domestic workers’ jobs are now at risk because of ministerial meddling and the introduction of a minimum wage.

According to the Department of Labour’s own research, presented in a report in 2001, the implementation of a minimum wage for domestic servants may lead to potential job losses of 169 000. Those results came from the Minister’s research - 169 000 more vulnerable South Africans without jobs and more than 100 000 breadwinners without the means to support their families. Those findings came from the Minister’s research.

South Africa needs jobs. A minimum wage is certainly not the answer. There are better options. There are other options. Not only will they prevent this sort of loss, but they will create more jobs. For example, up to certain levels … [Interjections.] The member must listen and he will learn. Under certain conditions, they should make the wages of domestic workers tax-deductible. This will encourage and motivate people to employ domestic workers and enhance employment.

However, the DA does support the recommendations of increasing family responsibility leave, the reduction of notice periods, a code of good practice for guidelines of service termination, and a maximum deduction of wages for accommodation that meets a certain standard. The introduction of a minimum wage by the Minister has failed not only those who will lose their jobs, but also the millions of unemployed people in South Africa.

First amongst the reasons for having the minimum wage is to assist those vulnerable workers whom we are discussing here today. Though it is appealing to suggest that everyone should earn a certain wage it is difficult to imagine that it is that easy. If it is, then why do so many countries have workers who earn so little? Have those countries just missed the boat on appropriate legislation? If it is possible to mandate high wages, why is it not possible to mandate low prices for food, housing, clothing, and everything else that makes life livable?

The minimum wage laws focus on wages and not on employment. If someone is employed, then she will receive at least the guaranteed wage. The law sets the terms of whatever employment happens to occur. The reduction in employment that results from the imposition of a minimum wage which is concentrated amongst these vulnerable workers with fewer skills is the cruel and, one had would hope, an unintended consequence of such a determination that our hon Minister has made.

The implication of this theory is simple and direct. The prediction that an artificial increase in the price of something causes less of it to be purchased is the most fundamental prediction of economics. It is called the law of demand and, frankly, it cannot be repealed by this House or by any Minister. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

Mr N S MIDDLETON: Madam Speaker, Ministers and colleagues, domestic workers as well as farmworkers have been and are still the most neglected and deprived group of workers in our society today.

That means that South Africa has a lesson to learn. This lesson is that where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organised conspiracy to oppress other people, to rob and degrade them, then neither persons nor property will be safe in future. Let this be a leaf from which we can learn. Let us learn from what is happening in Zimbabwe.

The domestic workers and farmworkers have gone through these deprivations for too long, as far as I am concerned. These are the workers who, from time immemorial, have been referred to as ``boys, girls, or nannies’’. All sorts of names have been thrown at these people. These are the workers who even work for 12 hours in a day.

The job description of these workers makes a sad reading and if I had to present a job description of a domestic worker, it will go like this: I clean your premises; I cook for you; I take care of your children; I take care of your aged mother and father; I act as security; I nurse both the humans and animals that you have; I plough your crops; I harvest; I wash your clothes; I iron your clothes; and I do everything that you could never do yourself; yet I do it with a slave wage that you give me.

When Jan van Riebeeck landed here in 1652, with his sailors, soldiers, and those who accompanied him with their guns, the first action that they took was to capture the indigenous residents of the country, that is, Khoisans and Hottentots, men and women, and they made them slaves. It is now history that nine months after they had captured those women, coloured children were born. [Laughter.]

The sad part of this is that these children did not inherit their fathers’ names. They did not know who their fathers were, but they were given fictitious names. Their surnames were January, February, March, April, May, June, you name it. [Laughter.] [Applause.] These were their names.

It has been reported that over 800 000 domestic workers are here today. I hear October complaining over there. That boy is a son of a slave. [Laughter.] It is due to these workers that MPs in Parliament are sitting here today. If it were not for them, members would not been sitting here themselves. [Applause.] It is their sacrifice that has put members here.

We acknowledge with thanks, too, that the Government has extended the Unemployment Insurance Act to these domestic workers. We hope that the Minister will see to it that this is implemented as soon as the time arrives. Having said that, I must express my grave concern and disappointment with the unrealistic proposed minimum wage as announced by the Minister. Whilst others are complaining, I appeal to the Minister not to give our workers peanuts. They have had peanuts for too long.

The Minister’s proposal of a minimum wage does not recognise this sector of workers. It does not recognise the contributions which they have made to this country. If there is any sector of workers who have made a contribution to this country, it is the domestic workers and the farmworkers, more than any other sector. I further want to appeal … [Time expired.] [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Madam Speaker, could you allow a person with a slave name to address the House! [Interjections.] It is precisely for that very reason of the utterances that we heard, yet again, of the DA rejecting the tool that the ANC-led Government has put in place for workers, that we were correct in putting forward a minimum wage for farmworkers, domestic and many other vulnerable workers.

When election time comes in this country, it is the very DA that goes to the farmworkers and domestic workers and tell them to vote for them. But, what they do not tell the farmworkers and domestic workers, who are sitting in the public gallery today, is that it is the DA that is forever voting against workers’ rights and labour relations in this House. [Applause.] I am very happy that the workers, who are in the public gallery, have seen and heard for themselves how they always oppose anything that we want to put forward, as the ANC, to improve the lives of workers in this country. [Applause.]

In discussing this topic, we need to look at who are the vulnerable sectors in our society. The category of vulnerable sectors in our society goes as far as the construction industry, farming, and even parts of retail, catering and domestic sectors. All of them can be characterised as vulnerable sectors in which the labour process, working conditions and the production cycle combine to make it difficult to build stable organisations. The domestic workers can attest to that.

In the construction industry, the large majority of unskilled and semiskilled workers are often on fixed-term contracts. The construction sites are not permanent workplaces. Again, it is a cyclical industry where many workers are unemployed for long periods of time. There is growing emphasis on small contractors as part of the so-called black economic empowerment.

In agriculture, farms employ small numbers of workers. Large distances separate each workplace from the next. Access to farms is difficult and the work is, of course, seasonal. One would find that large numbers of workers on the farms are either illegal immigrants or, in many instances, children. Many of them are women. All of them are brought into these places simply because of cheap labour.

Farmworkers also face specific working conditions. Their housing is tied to their jobs and bound into paternalistic and individualistic ownership. Large segments of the retail and catering sectors are comprised of vulnerable workers as one would find them in small shops, cafés, guesthouses and so on. Today, part of the retail sector is going into what is called franchises and subcontracting. Large numbers of those workers who work there are casual labour.

Domestic workers, by far, remain very isolated in their workplaces and work long hours. There are dismissals all the time. Contracting, cleaning and security services have, at last, started to enter into the domain of being regulated.

What is significant out of all these groups is that the majority are women

• vulnerable women in all of those sectors. The political choice that the ANC made, regarding the RDP and the 1999 manifesto, to transform the labour market and give special attention to the vulnerable sectors was correct. It was correct because we promised democracy and citizens’ rights. We promised the rights to work in fair and decent conditions, and the rights for citizens to get into the economy and working life. We also promised an end to apartheid division and, of course, the legacy of the colonial past.

It is no coincidence that we have these sectors with their conditions. Our colonial history, as has already been ably articulated by hon Middleton, is a history of slave labour with social conditions that we inherited. We have had conditions in slavery where, for example, slaves were told that no slaves were permitted into the inner sanctum of the cemetery at the funerals of white slave owners. Slaves, again, were not allowed to purchase any alcohol for their slave masters. Slaves were not allowed to wear leather shoes and stockings. Of course, on a Sunday, slaves were bound to their places and they could not have any movement around. That is what the hon members of the DA still want us to have. [Interjections.]

Most of the slaves even had their original names taken from them, as has already been said. It was so utterly disgusting that they gave us calendar names. I am proud to say that I am a September who comes out of the slave history. They were so disgusting that they gave some people emperor names such as Cupido and those that fathered a child, Adonis. They even gave people tongue-in-cheek names like Dirkbeen. That is how disgusting it was, and that is where the DA wants us to go back to. [Interjections.]

As I speak here today, my aunt who stays on an apple farm in Grabouw, at the age of 70, is threatened with being evicted from the farm. Her children, who are my cousins, have already been retrenched. We have been engaged in a battle over two years to get my elderly family members to remain on this apple farm in Grabouw. It is real that farm and domestic workers continue to have these problems.

Our challenge towards sustainability in this area would be that the floor of rights that we have ushered in through the minimum wage provision should ensure that we end poverty; bring an end to the days where domestic workers would go home with old clothes and a few rands in their pockets, and where farmworkers would go home with a bottle of wine and a permanent and casual contract. We need to advance education and training strategies through the skills levy so as to link them to an active job retention and job creation strategy and, of course, an end to illiteracy in this area.

These sectors have vindicated the argument that the labour market flexibility, through low wages and slave conditions, is not an answer to employment growth. The success of minimum wages in empowering the vulnerable workers and lifting them out of poverty lies in effective implementation. The campaign should be publicised in a much bigger way than it has been. We should enhance it in order to improve its enforcement, monitoring and further education.

The challenge to implementation is when workers know that they are being exploited but are afraid to speak out because of fear of dismissal and reprisals. The minimum wage, on its own, will not solve all the problems of poverty of these workers and other areas. We need to look at issues such as land rights and tenancy because they are linked to the employment conditions.

So, I want to congratulate the Minister for implementing the correct and progressive legislation which he has put through because it will start to take workers out of poverty. I would like to say to the hon Minister that the ANC supports the direction that he has taken, regarding vulnerable workers. We will continue to reject the slave mentality that we have on that side of the House. [Applause.] Mr J DURAND: Chairperson, domestic workers are in isolated, individualised employment relationships, and they are subjected to highly unequal power relations. As such, they are amongst the workers most in need of assistance to protect their rights. The market for domestic labour has always been the very model of a negative flexible labour market: wage rates at the discretion of individual employers, limited worker organisations, great flexibility - both upwards and downwards in the number of day and hours worked - task flexibility, and no barriers to discretionary firing of workers.

Of the estimated 700 000 domestic workers, 88% are estimated to be African and 96% women. It has been estimated that 35% of African women and 23% of coloured women are employed as domestic workers. Transformation of this sector is thus directed at the poorest and the most oppressed segment of the labour market. It is important to note that these abysmally low wages are sometimes not due to a lack of productivity on the part of domestic workers, but are rather a function of their low economic power. There is essentially a buyer’s market for domestic labour. Employers are able to determine who they employ, for how long and at what wage and conditions, and at what point the domestic worker should be dismissed, with the domestic employee having negligible bargaining power. Education attainment is particularly low amongst domestic workers. Almost 10% of domestic workers have no education. Just over 12% have passed standard five. Slightly less than 70% have passed standard six or less. This problem is compounded by the difficulty in getting access to education and training opportunities as many domestic workers live on the employers’ premises and have limited time off.

The establishment of a cleaning Seta and the provision of adult basic education and training for domestics should also be crucial aspects of an education and skills development strategy for domestic workers. Local authorities could form a structure through which adult basic education as well as a cleaning Seta could be run. Domestic workers tend to work long and irregular hours and are often required to be on stand-by. Approximately 18% of full-time domestic workers work more than a 45-hour week. Almost 9% of full-time domestic workers work 56 or more hours per week. Furthermore, employers often do not pay for any overtime.

Domestic workers are subjected to many forms of abuse and humiliation including isolated living conditions and sexual harassment. Job security is particularly low. The dismissal of domestic workers - and 70% and in most cases they do not even receive severance pay-make up some 70% to 80% of the complaints that come to the Department of Labour, and a similar if not higher proportion of cases that come to advice offices.

Standards currently applicable to domestic workers are generally not adhered to. This situation needs to be improved through a combination of making domestic workers more aware of their rights and an improved system of Government inspections and enforcement. More resources from the department of labour should be allocated to this problem.

We recommend a collaborative programme between the Department of Labour and local governments to carry out education and publicity on the rights of domestic workers. Furthermore, the department should conduct a study focusing on the harmonisation between different institutions which will be involved in the regulation and financial management of the domestic sector. One of the main arguments against minimum wages is that they are projected to lead to job losses. There may well be employers of domestic workers who would genuinely be unable to afford a full time domestic, were they to pay living wages. This does not mean that minimum wages should lead to such workers losing their jobs. The adjustments should rather be in terms of the number of hours worked. This would free up more time for domestic workers to take other part time jobs, or to pursue other activities.

Similarly, there are many poor or middle-income families who require domestic assistance with childcare or other tasks, but who are unable to afford an adequately remunerated domestic worker. The solution here is not to allow domestic wages to fall so low that anyone who needs domestic assistance can afford it. The solution lies rather in more publicly provided facilities and a social wage with respect to childcare and other necessary services.

Mr M N RAMODIKE: Madam Speaker, I rise to salute all our domestic workers and farmworkers throughout South Africa. They assist in contributing to the economy of our country. We acknowledge the presence of domestic servants, the majority of whom, I am told, come from our own parliamentary villages. I believe it is important that this type of debate takes place in their presence because we, as members of Parliament, must set an example in paying a living wage to our domestic workers.

It is common knowledge that the Government’s five-year programme which was put in place between 1994 and 1999 was aimed at fundamentally reforming the apartheid labour market, and thereby improving on the quality of life of domestic, farm and other vulnerable workers. In order to achieve this objective, the Government introduced a legislative framework comprising three pieces of legislation, namely, the Labour Relations Act of 1995, the Skills Development Act of 1998 and the Employment Equity Act of 1999.

This topic for debate in this House today invites us to conduct an introspection into the core concerns which the five-year Government programme sought to address which are, inter alia: the superexploitation of vulnerable workers; the phenomenon of the working poor; extreme inequality and discrimination against these categories of workers along racial and gender lines; the fragmentation of the apartheid labour market in terms of basic rights, protection and collective bargaining; human resources development; and the wage and occupational structures and practices which sought to bypass labour legislation on areas such as unfair dismissals and retrenchments. In view of the hon the Minister’s recent imbizo visits to the provinces like Limpopo, I would like to know if the Government has made any improvements in addressing the core concerns. If not, what are the major obstacles?

Maphelo a basomi ba dipolaseng le ba ka magaeng a hlobaetsa. Meputso ya bona e ya nyamisa. [The lives of farmworkers and domestic workers are a cause for concern. Their salaries are disgusting.]

Inflation for the rich means less savings in the bank, while for the farmworkers, domestic and other vulnerable workers, it means less food, no food or zero savings in the bank or no bank account at all. It remains a challenge for the hon the Minister and us, as hon members of this House, to note that these categories of workers are still victims of humiliation, ill- treatment and abuse by thousands of employers in this country. Many farmworkers, in particular, are still living under horrible and abhorrent conditions. [Time Expired.] [Applause.]

Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Chairperson, it is the role of Government to make laws. Sometimes, good laws are made that reverse the intended good of the legislation. The domestic workers sectoral determination regulation is such a case of good intention precipitating unintended consequences.

South Africa has a healthy domestic worker population that makes up almost 8% of the working population. It also has a farmworker population of more than 1,2 million. These are people who presumably operate at the lowest rung of the employment skill scale and yet play a pivotal role in the chain of productivity. In this regard, it is the right of all employees to expect compensation that is fair and of an acceptable standard. Recent media reports, however, show that members of this honourable House dishonour their domestic worker by paying them less than R400 per month. Shame on those hon members.

This is public knowledge, yet the public at large, who employ domestic workers, do not fare much better. We, as parliamentarians, are given the improbable task to ensure fair play in a sector that operates under different rules to normal employment requirements. For instance, households employ workers not on the basis of generating turnover or to increase profit margins. Domestic employment is based on family support, service flexibility and largely relates to trust, altruism and goodwill. Such employment relations are not conditional but nurtured over time. However, it is feared that making these employment relations conditional may lead to distrust and rigid employment conditions which would be imposed by employers and employee alike.

The ACDP supports the rights of domestic workers and farmworkers to enjoy basic employment security and human dignity. However, we must not legislate in such a way that we make it difficult to apply such rights. We should not regulate price controls and, at the same time, reduce the marketability of these sectors. Instead of penalising those entrepreneurs, who are willing to engage others in productive employment, we should rather reward them.

Mr D S MAIMANE: Chairperson, hon members of Parliament, the hon the Minister of Labour, South Africa under apartheid rule was a country where human rights violation, exploitation and abuse of power were the order of the day. Domestic workers and farmworkers were the major victims of such practices and continue to suffer, even when freedom has been achieved in the country of their birth. Their exploitation expresses itself in the following manner: low wages, unfavourable working conditions and vulnerability to expulsion from work without any valid reasons.

The ANC-led Government, as a champion of workers’ rights, has ensured that the plight of domestic workers and farmworkers is given priority by the Minister of Labour, Comrade Membathis Mdladlana. We need to congratulate the hon the Minister for confronting this anomaly when he introduced relevant legislative means to address the plight of both farmworkers and domestic workers. It has to be borne in mind that in determining wages, the Minister is merely setting a standard as to the manner in which salaries need to be paid. It does not mean that he will pay the workers himself.

Such a step goes in line with the President’s call for the establishment of a caring society in our country - a society where human beings treat each other with respect. The master-servant relationship which has been a common practice under apartheid rule, must disappear with immediate effect. I had an opportunity during the local government election, in 1995, to witness a situation where farmers where denying farmworkers an opportunity to express their political will freely. Some years after that, I was surprised by the manner in which farmworkers were even deprived of the opportunity to continue to exercise that political expression.

In 1999, when I visited the same farms, the situation had improved. This improvement can only be attributed to the message of hope to the people of our country from the ANC-led Government. Both farmers and farmworkers, at least, have begun to recognise that they need each other. An area that requires special attention is around salaries and working conditions for the farmworkers. Most of them work without proper protective clothing and, as a result, they die of diseases and injuries. Access to health and educational facilities for both farmworkers and their children is also another area that needs attention.

Although there are farmers who are trying their best to attend to these problems, some are just obstinate. We need to do something about this, as a democratic nation. The love for money has encouraged some farmers to employ our fellow Africans from Mozambique and Zimbabwe in order to escape from paying a living a wage to South Africans. Such capitalist tendencies which also smack of racist attitudes, need to be engaged so as to bring them to an abrupt terminal point.

We know that farmworkers’ children are also used as labourers. This is an anomaly, again, and must not be tolerated. Perhaps, it must be stated that the continued suppression and exploitation of farmworkers has far-reaching socioeconomic consequences. In order to avoid such developments, farmers must take heed of the call that our President made for a caring society. If farmers can respect and provide proper and reasonable shelter and salaries for their farmworkers, South Africa’s farms shall become more productive.

In this manner, children of farmworkers will be sent to school and not be used as labourers to pay for their stay on the farm. The attainment of a caring society must manifest in the farms where food for our country and the world is being produced. We cannot afford to sell food to the world with pride while those who produce it are exploited and denied access to basic services. As a nation, we must provide educational opportunities and accelerate the pace of change in those farming communities.

Motswana fa a bua a re, tlogatloga e tloga gale, modisa wa kgomo o tswa natso sakeng. Re tshwanela ke go baakanya dilo tse di sa ntse di le metsi. Badiri ba dipolase le dikitshi ba tshwanetse go neelwa dithata le maemo a a ba tshwanetseng. Tlotlo e ba belegweng ka yona e tshwanetse go ba boela.

Ke le supa le penne nna ke le morwa Maimane, mosimane a Motshweneng wa Mapula o Modisane. Ngwana a tlhare se bothitho. Ke re diphetogo di tlaa bonala mang a rata, mang a sa rate.

Ke rata go leboga le go tlotlomatsa Tona ya Lefapha la Ditiro, ke re a tshware a tiise. Motswana a re mmatlakgomo kodumela o etse mofata sediba. Nko ya kgomo mogala tshwara thata, e se re o utlwa sebodu wa kgaoga. (Translation of Tswana paragraphs follows.)

[A Motswana says that people must make preparations in good time. We should amend these things at the earliest stage. Farmworkers and domestic workers should be given the rights and status that they deserve. The dignity that they were born with should be returned to them.

As a son of Maimane, I swear that changes will be seen, whether people like it or not.

I would like to thank and honour the Minister of Labour and say that he should hold on tightly. A Motswana says that success comes through hard work. He also says that one should persevere even in difficult times.]

I would like to appeal to members of Parliament and all other South Africans to abide by the rules as prescribed by law and to remunerate domestic workers accordingly. I would also like to appeal to all democratic forces to unite in action to change the lives of these important workers of our country by organising and educating them about their rights.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mnr die Voorsitter, die VF is ten gunste daarvan dat die lewenskwaliteit van plaaswerkers en huiswerkers verbeter en verhoog moet word. Ek wil dit vandag baie duidelik stel dat politici moet ophou om enkele gevalle waar daar verkeerde dinge plaasvind wat plaaswerkers betref, te verhef tot die veralgemening.

Ek het ook op ‘n plaas grootgeword. My grootste speelmaat was een van die plaaswerkers se seuns. Dit was nie vir my snaaks om met ‘n buiteband en ‘n stok saam met hom te moes speel nie. Dit was nie vir my snaaks om met ‘n draadkar saam met my speelmaat te speel nie. Dit was ook nie vir my snaaks om na ‘n reënstorm met my swart maat in die modderpoele kaalbas te speel nie. Ons mag dit nie eintlik gedoen het nie, want dit was gevaarlik. Daar was goeie verhoudinge gewees. Ek is nie toegelaat om as ‘n kind parmantig te wees met enige plaaswerker nie, want dan het my pa my ‘n pak slae gegee. Ek het geleer daar is iets soos wedersydse respek.

In meeste van die gevalle betreffende plaaswerkers is daar wedersydse respek en is daar vertroue tussen werkgewer en werknemer. Ek wil vandag waarsku: As die politici gaan misbruik maak van enkele gevalle om rassehaat aan te blaas om van enkele voorbeelde te veralgemeen, dan is hulle oppad om politiek te bedryf soos Mugabe dit doen en sodoende rassehaat aan te jaag. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Mr Chairman, the FF is in favour of the quality of life of farm and domestic workers being improved and raised. Today I want to put it very clearly that politicians should stop taking isolated cases where things went wrong concerning farm workers and elevating them to generalisations.

I too grew up on a farm. My best playmate was one of the farmworkers’ sons. It was not out of the ordinary for me to play with a tyre and a stick along with him and neither was it out of the ordinary for me to play with cars made out of wire along with my playmate; nor was it out of the ordinary for my black playmate and I to play naked in the mud pools after a rainstorm. We were not really supposed to do that because it was dangerous. Good relations existed. As a child I was not allowed to be impertinent with any farmworker, because If I did so my father would give me a hiding. I have learned that there is something like mutual respect.

In most of the cases regarding farm workers, there is mutual respect and trust between employer and employee. I want to issue a stern warning: If the politicians are going to abuse the isolated incidents to fan the flames of racial hatred by generalising these individual examples, then they are on the way to practising politics like Mugabe and in so doing they are inciting hatred amongst the races. [Interjections.]]

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Chairperson, the domestic workers in South Africa have in the past and in the present situation, despite the fact that there is now legislation that provides for their minimum payment, continued to be exploited in the light of new regimes and basic conditions of employment that regulate the labour market.

The implication of this violation of their rights is that they are denied the opportunity to enjoy the same freedom that we all enjoy. Many do not earn a decent salary which is suitable to maintain themselves, let alone their families. It is not a secret that the majority of workers in this sector happen to be women who are, in most cases, breadwinners in their families.

We have just emerged from the World Summit on Sustainable Development and it is not coincidental that the outcome of that gathering identified poverty as a major threat to our world population, and the majority of people who are affected are women and children. If we are to halve the current poverty, we have to improve the quality of life of domestic workers and others in a similar category, who are struggling but are working.

As South Africans, in particular, leaders and employers in this sector, we have to sensitise ourselves to the fact that we have the responsibility to be exemplary, by treating our workers with dignity. We have the solution to the problem affecting these workers. Let us do our bit to improve their lifestyle. To achieve the objective of better lives for these workers in this sector, employers should create a conducive working environment in meeting the needs of their employees. This can be achieved in many ways. The basic income of domestic workers can be supplemented by other benefits such as helping to educate the children of those workers. [Time expired.]

Mrs P DE LILLE: Mr Chairperson, I want to start by commending the Minister of Labour for announcing a minimum wage for domestic workers. It is a start and will certainly lead to some improvement. Therefore, we must also, like others, appeal to our members of Parliament to uphold the standards and not violate them.

I also want to ask the Minister of Labour: When will he announce a minimum wage for farmworkers, and also whether the proposal that they are working on includes seasonal workers on farms? The reason I ask is that on National Women’s Day, on 9 August, I attended a march in Stellenbosch. Seasonal workers were campaigning for R50 a day. Now, really, one cannot do anything with R50 a day.

Two weeks ago, with the hon Gavin Woods, we decided to visit some of the good farms in the area. We visited the Kanonkop, Delheim Estate and Graham Beck’s farm which is close to Robertson. We must encourage the farmers that are paying more to their workers to talk to the other farmers and encourage them to do the same. We must also encourage distillers to develop a code of conduct and ethics because they buy grapes from all these farmers, and if the farmers do not comply with that code of ethics, they should not buy from them.

Gavin and I also found that the SA Wine Trust has collapsed, because of the failure of the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs to appoint the new trustees. Currently, we have about R10,9 million plus R12,5 million in the fund. Since June the Wine Trust has not been able to make funds available. We appeal to the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs to appoint new trustees and farmworkers as trustees to the trust.

I also want to commend the NGO, Women on Farms Project, for the work that they are doing on farms to empower women and to strengthen the capacity of women on farms.

Mr S A MSHUDULU: Chairperson, the hon the Minister, hon members, distinguished guests, domestic workers, farmworkers and all vulnerable workers out there, I greet you all on behalf of the ANC. It is an honour for me to stand here.

Allow me to adopt a strategic approach to this matter, that will not only focus on challenges but on the history that has created this category of workers. The present situation and environment has led to the ANC coming up with policies and measures to address these anomalies.

I stand here as a member of a generation born of grandfathers and grandmothers who owned everything: land, farms, stock and all that man needed. They had confidence, dignity, ubuntu and their communal social system was viable and equitable. Family life was unaltered and undiluted by foreign cultures and practices. Productivity was not defined by an English dictionary but understood the African way, and there was no class struggle.

When colonialists came here, to Africa, new concepts were ushered in which were detrimental to our social system. Firstly, the land, where everything belonged, was taken by force. The tax system was imposed to force the dispossessed to go to towns to work in order to pay tax. Assets that were owned were taken through wars and some were cut. Women and children were left desolate as men were recruited to mines on a contract system. Thus families were broken and no respect or dignity was left for them.

What I am trying to explain is that, for colonialists to control everybody, they had to break the power our grandfathers and grandmothers had, which was land ownership, cattle, stock and farms. The relationship between the employer and employees is about the means of production and power relations. Because of the above-mentioned background, our fathers and mothers were reduced to workers who begged for food and work after everything they had was dispossessed. To legitimise this evil, both the British and the Boers excluded blacks in the constitution of the land. This gave rise to the Land Act of 1913.

The birth of the ANC, in 1912, was a direct response to the planning of the Land Act which aimed to remove land ownership from Africans in all but proclaimed reserves which were called homelands. The ANC’s focus, from inception, was on resistance and the restoration of land and property rights.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, the collective noise that you are making is cancelling out what the member at the podium is attempting to say.

Mr S A MSHUDULU: Chairperson, workers in general are those people who will sell their labour for payment. The classification of workers is based on the value attached to one’s labour. In order not to pay much, less value was attached by capitalists to the job that one did. Even today, the farmworkers, the domestic workers and other blue-collar workers are paid less because less value is attached to their job descriptions - if they have any, of course, as this is seen as not necessary. What is being ignored today is that the productivity, success and profits of those in power cannot be realised without these workers’ input.

If one of us, for instance, is in a top position and he is very productive at work, preparation for work starts early in the morning where one needs to have a bath, clean clothes, an immaculate dress code, a clean car and breakfast. This first phase of production which has contributed to mental and physical preparedness is counted in favour of this successful man and not the domestic worker. Bonuses and promotions that might come because of this domestic worker will not benefit the domestic worker. A lot has been said.

A farmworker, when a farm has to be ploughed and stock herded, is seen as the one who is responsible for that. But, when stock grows and there is a lot of milk and harvest, credit goes to the employer and not the farmworker. In South African workplaces, today, credit for productivity always goes to middle or top management. It is argued that production is as a result of their good boardroom planning and innovation, based on sound product management. When productivity declines, they are not answerable. But, it is the vulnerable blue-collar worker who is blamed and ends up being retrenched.

Because of the apartheid nationalist government’s exclusion of domestic workers, farmworkers and vulnerable workers in the labour laws, the ANC-led Government, which took power in 1994, gave priority to the plight of these workers. This is confirmed by the Constitution of South Africa, which was adopted in 1996.

Chapter 1, section 2 stipulates the supremacy of the Constitution. It says that laws or conduct which are inconsistent with it, are invalid, and obligations imposed by it must be fulfilled. Section 9, on equality, says that no person may unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone, on any grounds. National legislation must be enacted to prevent or prohibit unfair discrimination, hence the Employment Equity Act was put in place. On human dignity, everyone has inherent dignity and the right to have their dignity respected and protected.

Section 23 deals with workers’ rights. Everyone has the right to fair labour practices. Every worker has the right to form and join a trade union. All sections under the Bill of Rights apply to all, including these workers. The ANC-led Government, through this Parliament, passed a law that protects all workers, including domestic workers and farmworkers.

This democracy brought real recognition for this category of workers in

1. In the Labour Relations Act, for instance, section 85 says that everyone has the right not to be unfairly dismissed. This Law also created an institution called CCMA. This institution has helped a lot of these vulnerable workers.

It was also common knowledge that, for Government to put measures in place, there must have been problems which had been identified. I will give an example of farmworkers. There is a study that has been done, which reflects that 70% of all farmworkers are male and are relatively young. Children living on commercial farms are more likely to be stunted and underweight. A third of the children are at risk of hunger. Poor quality housing - as we would know, the quality of housing symbolises the dignity of workers - is inconvenient, unpleasant, degrading and dehumanising. Farmworkers, I repeat, have the worst rates of illiteracy in the country.

The average cash wage in agriculture is very low. Female farmworkers are paid less than their male counterparts, and the gap between the two is unacceptable. So, the history goes on. From the above evidence it is clear that most South African farmworkers live under circumstances of absolute and relative poverty.

Other serious observations are that the problems raised indicate the extent to which employment in agriculture differs from employment in other sectors, in terms of the extent of dependence of workers on employers, the isolation of workers from the sources of information and social support beyond the farm and the significant obstacles to enable workers to access their labour rights. The same study was undertaken for domestic workers. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr C AUCAMP: Chairperson, I know that hon Middleton is quite an elderly man, but I did not know that he was present when Jan van Riebeeck arrived 400 years ago. [Laughter.]

One of the most vulnerable groups of workers in South Africa today is the white male group, a group whose members have to queue up at the back of the line, irrespective of merit, a vulnerability that has caused thousands of them to seek greener pastures abroad. I know that this group is not the focus of the debate today, but let us take care not to address the problems of one group and at the same time create a new group of vulnerable workers. As to domestic workers and farmworkers, the AEB is in favour of the improvement of their lives, working conditions and circumstances. Surely, there are examples of abuse, of unfavourable terms and conditions that should be addressed. As a whole we are of the opinion that the scales set by the Minister is realistic. The Bible teaches us:

Die arbeider is sy loon werd. Die AEB waarsku egter dringend teen ‘n legalistiese en wettiese afdwing daarvan, waarsku daarteen dat ons soos ‘n bul in ‘n porseleinwinkel hierdie terrein bestorm, waarsku teen die herhaling van die 1812 Swart Omgang. Hierdie is ‘n saak wat met groot oorleg aangepak moet word. Die uitlig van enkele gevalle asof dit die reël is en die kweek van ‘n kultuur van onrus in hierdie mark, gaan die mees weerloosstes die swaarste tref. Die onoordeelkundige afdwing van die maatreëls gaan lei tot afdankings, groter meganisering en groter werkloosheid.

Ek kan vir u talle en talle gevalle noem van goeie verhoudinge, van gelukkige arbeiders, van die totale sorg in terme van onderwys, gesondheid, voeding, behuising en vervoer wat nêrens op ‘n betaalstaat of in ‘n dienskontrak verskyn nie. Daar is talle van wedersydse trou en lojaliteit. Laat die uitstaande gevalle van misbruik en van die skending van die regte van werkers aan die pen ry. Dit is reg so, maar maak van hierdie saak ‘n politieke speelbal, skep ‘n klimaat van onrus en opstokery en die mees weerloosstes gaan die meeste daaronder ly. Daarenteen, versterk ‘n kultuur van goeie trou, medemenslike omgee, waardering en lojaliteit en skep sodoende ‘n situasie waarin niemand sal verloor nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The labourer is worthy of his hire. The AEB, however, urgently warns against its legalistic and rigid enforcement, warns against our storming this territory like a bull in a china shop, warns against the repetition of the Black Circuit of 1812. This is an issue that must be handled with great care. The highlighting of single cases as if they were the rule and the cultivation of a culture of unrest in this market, will have the greatest impact on those who are the most vulnerable. The ill-considered enforcement of the measures will lead to retrenchments, greater mechanisation and more unemployment.

I can mention numerous examples of good relations, of happy labourers, of total care in terms of education, health, feeding, housing and transport that does not appear on any pay sheet or in any service contract. There are numerous examples of mutual faith and loyalty. Let the cases that are the exception with regard to abuse and the violation of workers’ rights be brought to book. That is rightly so, but if one makes a political football of this issue and creates a climate of unrest and agitation, the most defenceless will suffer the most. On the other hand, reinforce a culture of good faith, humanitarian care, appreciation and loyalty and in so doing create a situation where no one is the loser.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: The hon Aucamp might like to know that the hon Middleton has seen time both in the First World War and the Second World War and he is probably as old as time in itself. Mr S PILLAY: Mr Chairman, today we debate an issue that has to be managed. There is no doubt about that. Poverty and unemployment need to be the focus of the Minister’s activities. One of the major problems associated with domestic and farm work is the categorisation of that type of work. These are essential tasks. I am certain there can be no argument on that score.

The labour portfolio committee has started visiting farmworkers and I am hopeful that this process will continue throughout the country to ensure that conditions of employment are acceptable. I know from personal experience how terrible conditions on some farms can be. My father was a farmworker. I must add that not all domestic workers and farmworkers work under terrible conditions. Like every industry, there are those who treat the workers very badly and those who treat the workers properly. It is our responsibility to ensure that the people who treat their workers properly are recognised and those that mistreat their workers exposed and remedial action taken.

It is a fact that there is a huge amount of physical work involved and that also requires skills. No household or farm work is easy to manage and I am certain, again, that we all acknowledge that fact. When we look at our neighbouring countries the importance of farmworkers becomes more evident to the unaware. One cannot play down the role of such work. Millions starve and die when the core of farmworkers is destroyed, and South Africa has a track record of its resilience and ability to survive and manage the most difficult situations.

The topic of discussion mentions workers and the implication is that this discussion revolves around those already employed. However, I would suggest that this debate would be incomplete if only the employed are considered. Consideration must be given to the unemployed who, when they enter the work place in these sectors, would also be vulnerable. Serious thought must be given to training to enable them to have more employment options. Age in this instance should not be a consideration. In the areas of Protea North, Lenasia, Lenasia South, Ennerdale, Lawley, Migson Manor, Wheelers Farm, Finetown and Orange Farm, the unemployment rate exceeds 75%, according to our initial findings. Many of the people in the areas mentioned have worked in the domestic environment, farms or other sectors where they are vulnerable. I urge the Minister to give more attention to ensuring that such people receive training to ensure that they have more options in terms of finding employment.

While we debate, there are many children somewhere that are starving as the parents or guardians are paid starvation wages as clearly shown by a Special Assignment TV programme during this year. This is a problem that does not need political grandstanding. It needs us as a nation to unite and acknowledge it as a problem and seek solutions to it. It can never be an easy task to resolve. However, I am convinced that if all people of goodwill make a determined effort, we will find a solution.

Dr U ROOPNARAIN: Mr Chairman, hon members, this debate indicates the seriousness that this House affords to the issue of workers’ rights and social justice. Yesterday, the hon the Minister of Labour, in his reply to a question, sang a song about domestic workers. Today I would like to borrow a quote from the hon the Minister. It reads like this:

For domestic workers the struggle is not yet over until there is action. The book on apartheid has been closed but there has been no funeral, we are the ones that can bury it.

This characterises the role that we, as political power brokers, can play in society. This interaction is important, because there can be no doubt that domestic workers have suffered the worst working conditions and treatment by employers. Very often domestic workers, for the sheer fact of being women, are regarded in some paternalistic way as being unskilled'', invisible’’, domesticated'' and as nonproductive’’. This type of thinking has been entrenched in our society and, hence, has devalued women.

Moreover, there is no shortage of examples of tyranny in the backyard. The media has carried harrowing accounts of brutality against farmworkers and even child workers. Domestic workers are the most vulnerable at the point of employment, with no real bargaining or negotiating power. What needs to happen? We need to break this vulnerability and provide legal protection.

The IFP welcomes any protective legislation or regulations that can be used as a tool or a weapon for vulnerable workers - it is really about human rights and their worth. Protective legislation will never succeed if it is decided and dealt with in purely technical terms and in the statute books, it needs to go beyond that. Hence, the key test is: Will it meaningfully change and improve the lives of vulnerable workers?

It is up to us to stop the manifestation of victimisation, harassment and lack of respect for the sanctity of these vulnerable workers. So, we applaud the Minister’s efforts since, as vulnerable workers, they need to work in a supportive, fair and developmental environment. Any act of victimisation or harassment is an act too many.

So, let me go back to the quote I began with:

For domestic workers the struggle is not yet over until there is action. The book on apartheid has been closed but there has been no funeral, we are the ones that can bury it.

I want to add to it. Let the epitaph read: Vulnerable workers will not be victimised, brutalised or terrorised. In short, it is finished. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Mr Chairperson, I want to thank the hon members for their support. This has been a very difficult process. It has taken us more than 30 months. Unfortunately, there are people who think that it is an easy matter and yet it is a very difficult one.

Today, I would like to dedicate this short speech of mine to the gallant heroines of our struggle whose determination for freedom caused them to flood the streets of Pretoria as they marched to the Union Buildings in August 1956. [Applause.] I speak of women of South Africa who from generation to generation passed on the baton of the struggle for the liberation of our people. I speak of women whose quest for freedom, justice and equality subdued their fear of detention, torture, tear gas, even for death. Some of those women carried children on their backs as they marched, symbolising the burden they carried on a daily basis as the laws of this country had reduced them into beasts of burden.

While we have indeed conquered the apartheid regime and established a democracy, many of the women of our land continue to languish under the crushing burden of poverty and underdevelopment. Many of these women work in our homes as domestic workers.

They look after our children so that we may be able to earn an income. They clean our houses, so that we may enjoy a healthy life. They cook our food so that we may live. They wash and iron our clothes so that we may look as presentable as many hon members are today. Yet, despite the significant contribution they make to the economy of our country, many of these backroom operators, whose contribution is undervalued and on whose sacrifices so many of us depend, are the most exploited workers in the labour market. That is why we had to come up with the sectoral determination.

Our research has revealed that many domestic workers work long and unregulated hours with inadequate rest periods. Many of them do not enjoy paid sick leave or annual leave and are paid meagre salaries. In other words, the provisions of the Basic Conditions of Employment Act which are aimed at providing a floor of rights for workers are inadequate to deal with the unique circumstances of domestic workers. I want to plead with the hon members to read this little booklet very carefully. It does not only talk about where one must benchmark wages but it also talks about conditions.

Of course, I know, like the big-mouthed hon member, that there are parties who went to poor areas and instigated people to mobilise themselves, march to the offices of the Department of Labour and demand the observance of their rights. It will not happen, precisely because the Constitution of this country allows us to do these things. I want to make an appeal to hon members that they should welcome the fact that a minimum wage remains a basic minimum wage.

I have no qualms, problems or difficulties with those who are paying R2 000,00 a month to their domestic workers. I do not quarrel with those who pay R1 500,00 either. But I do quarrel with those who pay R250,00 a month. [Applause.] I quarrel with those who either pay R300,00 or R400,00 a month.

All I am saying is that in a municipality like Cape Town, which is what the sectoral determination is saying, one should not pay less than R800,00 to domestic workers. Members should see this as a tool and a weapon.

Unfortunately, many people think that the Minister of Labour is going to knock at 930 000 homes. No, this tool must be used so that we are able to say there is now a sectoral determination for domestic workers in that home.

The hon member from the DP, Clelland-Stokes, said that the domestic workers are going to be fired. We are aware that there are cruel people. I am not saying that all people in this country are good people of God. I know that there are cruel people who will fire their domestic workers but this document is not the reason to fire domestic workers. Because, if one reads this document, it states that one can vary the working hours.

There is no need for one to make a domestic worker work for 60 or 80 hours a week. One can always vary the times. If one looks at this document it states that one can even make one’s domestic worker work 27 hours and less, a week. If one makes one’s domestic worker work 27 hours and more a week, then one must follow these rules. It is very simple and is in simple English and the member speaks so much English. This is very simple English. He needs to understand it. He must not encourage employers to fire domestic workers. [Applause.] Instead, he should encourage them to pay more than what the sectoral determination requires them to.

I am making an appeal here. Today, domestic workers arrived in my office because a member of this House - that is what they said and I am looking for the truth and I hope I will get it - has fired his or her domestic worker. They came to my office and I am still tracing the person who took the domestic workers to my office. As soon as I get that person hon members will know. In fact, I do not have to name anybody, but the domestic worker will do so. [Interjections.] They will definitely do so. Many of the members think that domestic workers are ``domkoppe’’. Hulle is nie domkoppe nie. [They are not stupid.] They can speak and talk for themselves.

Actually, it is women who marched to Pretoria, not men. It is women who initiated the system that enabled all of us to no longer carry those dompasses around our necks - it is women. [Applause.] I am sure that women, again, are going to win.

There is one thing that we must also understand, this minimum wage is going to be increased by 8% annually. Therefore, my friend must understand that this is going up and not going down. It also has a life-span. After a certain period, we will have to review this sectoral determination. That is how it works.

I am appealing to hon members to understand that if they say that this is too little, then they need to be exemplary. One should say: What the Minister is determining as minimum wage is too little, therefore I am going to pay my domestic worker R10 000 a month. There is nothing wrong with that, regarding hon Middleton. I would really kiss him, and I will not mention where I would kiss him. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

We will also determine minimum wages for farmworkers as well. I will be announcing a sectoral determination for farmworkers very soon. I am convinced, regarding hon Groenewald, that it has nothing to do with my politics. [Interjections.] Hon Groenewald does not know my politics,and when he knows them he will be sorry. It has to do with the way farmers treat farmworkers. [Interjections.] Yes, I agree with hon Groenewald. There are farmers who treat farmworkers very well and I have visited some of those farms. But, there are bad farmers too.

Unfortunately, the bad farmer is the one who is damaging the good farmer’s image in this country. Must we allow the bad farmer to thrive in the name of the good farmer? No, we cannot do that. Certainly, this sectoral determination will not affect a good farmer. It will only affect a bad farmer. Because here we are talking about the basic conditions of work for farmworkers.

When I visited the farms, I went to one farm in Limpopo. The people were complaining there. Farmworkers asked us the whereabout of this freedom that we are talking about. In 1994, they were told to go and vote. They voted and there was a new democracy - a new South Africa. On their farms there is no new South Africa. [Interjections.] The people that I am talking about are employees in the houses of these hon members. They are the ones complaining. Some hon members have farms - by the way. People are complaining that they do not see any freedom, which is what they voted for on 27 April 1994.

So, I want to thank those hon members who really see the light. Indeed, the route that we are taking is correct and we are on course to better the lives of our people. Hon members must read the ANC manifesto which says we shall make sure that we protect the vulnerable workers. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 18:45. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 (1)    Bill passed by National Assembly on 11  September  2002:  To  be
     submitted to President of the Republic for assent:


     (i)     Probation Services Amendment Bill [B 18D - 2002]  (National
          Assembly - sec 75).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Communications:

 (a)    Annual Report and Financial  Statements  of  the  South  African
     Broadcasting Corporation (SABC) for 2001-2002.


 (b)    Annual  Report  and  Financial  Statements  of  the  Independent
     Communications Authority of South  Africa  (ICASA)  for  2001-2002,
     including the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the  Financial
     Statements for 2001-2002 [RP 120-2002].


 (c)     Annual  Report  and  Financial  Statements  of   the   National
     Electronic Media Institute of South Africa (NEMISA) for 2001-2002.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence for 2001-02, dated 19 June 2002:

 CREDA INSERT REPORT
 Report to be considered.