TUESDAY, 5 JUNE 2001 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:04.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the Council:

That the Council -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  South Africa and the rest of the world are today celebrating
       World Environment Day;


   (b)  this day was established by the United Nations in 1972 to remind
       people across the globe about the importance of conserving the
       environment; and


   (c)  every year a theme is identified to focus world attention on the
       environment and that the themes serve as a reminder that the
       earth is our common heritage and is indivisible;

(2) commends the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism and provincial environmental departments for their launch of a wide range of sustainable environmental initiatives aimed at giving effect to environmental rights expressed in the Constitution;

(3) calls on all organs of state to give full effect to our citizens’ environmental rights by adherence to the principle contained in Chapter 1 of the National Environmental Management Act, 1998;

(4) commits itself to uphold all principles of the International Convention for the Protection of the Environment to which South Africa is a signatory; and

(5) commits itself to promoting a culture of cleanliness, minimising pollution and waste, encouraging a holistic and integrated approach to development, encouraging the involvement of all sectors of society, and promoting and enhancing the quality of our environment for the wellbeing of all our citizens.

Mnr A E VAN NIEKERK: Voorsitter, ek gee kennis dat ek by die volgende sitting van die Raad sal voorstel:

Dat die Raad kennis neem dat die Demokratiese Alliansie -

(1) sy diepe teleurstelling en skok uitspreek oor die voortslepende en voortdurende plaasmoorde;

(2) die President van Suid-Afrika versoek om in te gryp en hierdie wraak en kriminele optrede van ‘n klein groepie kriminele stop te sit, voordat die reg in eie hande geneem word; (3) sy simpatie en medelye uitspreek teenoor die gesinne, die personeel en naasbestaandes van die afgestorwenes; en

(4) sy dank uitspreek vir die bystand van werknemers, bure en die polisie, waar hulle wel bystand verleen het en met sukses kon optree. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the Council I shall move:

That the Council notes that the Democratic Alliance -

(1) expresses its profound disappointment and shock about the ongoing and continued farm murders;

(2) requests the President of South Africa to intervene and put a stop to these revengeful and criminal actions by a small group of criminals, before people take the law into their own hands;

(3) expresses its sympathy and condolences to the families, the staff and the relatives of the deceased; and

(4) expresses its gratitude for the assistance of employees, neighbours and the police, in cases where they were able to assist and take successful action.]

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the Council:

That the Council -

(1) notes with regret the alarming report that a certain teacher in Gauteng has been suspended because of the sexual abuse of a schoolchild;

(2) further notes that girls are raped, sexually abused and sexually harassed at their schools by their teachers;

(3) calls on the Government to comply with its constitutional and international obligations to protect women and girls from sexual violence and further to promote an environment conducive to obtaining a good education; and

(4) therefore calls on the national Department of Education to develop a national plan of action to address the problem of school-based sexual violence.

                   RATIFICATION OF KYOTO PROTOCOL

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr T B TAABE: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) on the occasion of World Environment Day, notes with concern -

   (a)  President Bush's stated intention not to ratify the Kyoto
       Protocol;


   (b)  that this will set back efforts to halt the global threat of
       climate change; and


   (c)  that the political fallout which resulted from this across the
       world indicates that other countries view this environmental
       threat in a very serious light;

(2) calls on South Africa, as host of the World Summit on Sustainable Development next year, to occupy a leadership position within the G- 77 to make sure that progress is made internationally in averting this very real threat to developing countries;

(3) calls for South Africa to ratify the Kyoto Protocol;

(4) does everything in its power to ensure that the Kyoto Protocol is entered into force by the World Summit on Sustainable Development next year in Johannesburg;

(5) calls on South Africa to find ways of developing its renewable energy sector, so that we can bring down our own greenhouse gas emissions while providing affordable access to all South Africans; and

(6) acknowledges that promoting energy efficiency throughout the country will also help in this regard, while contributing significant savings to the country’s gross national product.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                 RELEASE OF LATEST CRIME STATISTICS

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr P A MATTHEE: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  the moratorium on the release of crime statistics has at long
       last been lifted;


   (b)  according to the new statistics certain serious violent crimes
       such as robbery with aggravating circumstances and other
       robberies have again increased; and


   (c)  although certain crimes have stabilised, all crime levels are
       still unacceptably high;

(2) further notes that crime remains one of the greatest obstacles to business and one of the most worrying aspects of life in South Africa for the South African public in general;

(3) also notes that the latest crime statistics confirm that the prevention and combating of crime in South Africa still does not receive a high enough priority by the Government; and

(4) urges the President and the Government to treat the safety and the security of all our people as a much higher priority, as this remains the Government’s most fundamental duty towards its citizens and all the people within our borders.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Is there any objection to the motion? [Interjections.] There is an objection. The motion will therefore become notice of a motion.

   NAMIBIAN GOVERNMENT'S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE NAMIBIAN NEWSPAPER

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes that the Namibian government has, on the grounds of ``unwarranted criticism of government policies’’, withdrawn all routine advertising of government notices from the largest independent newspaper in Namibia, the Namibian, and issued a presidential order to the Namibian government departments not to purchase the newspaper, which is the most important financial paper in Namibia; and

(2) notes with concern the growing intolerance in Namibia, which now includes the free press.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Is there any objection to the motion?

Mr M V MOOSA: Yes, Chairperson.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! In the light of the objection, this motion will also not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become a notice of motion.

           TWENTIETH ANNIVERSARY OF IDENTIFICATION OF AIDS

                         (Draft Resolution)

Me E C GOUWS: Voorsitter, ek stel sonder kennisgewing voor:

Dat die Raad -

(1) kennis neem van die feit dat -

   (a)  die Amerikaanse Centres for Disease Control and Prevention op 5
       Junie 1981 - presies 20 jaar gelede - 'n nuwe siekte
       geïdentifiseer het; en


   (b)  die siekte 'n jaar later, 1982, omskryf is as die verworwe
       immuniteitsgebreksindroom, nl vigs; en

(2) van mening is dat veilige gedrag ‘n leefwyse behoort te word, veral in ons land waar MIV/Vigs heelbo op die agenda behoort te wees. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)

[Ms E C GOUWS: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes the fact that -

   (a)  on 5 June 1981 - exactly 20 years ago - the American Centres for
       Disease Control and Prevention identified a new disease; and


   (b)  a year later, in 1982, the disease was defined as acquired
       immune deficiency syndrome, ie Aids; and

(2) is of the view that safe behaviour should become a lifestyle, particularly in our country where HIV/Aids should be at the top of the agenda.]

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution. LETTER FROM SUNDAY TIMES JOURNALIST TO DA

                         (Draft Resolution)

Ms B THOMPSON: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes with grave concern the DP or DA’s inability to perform as an opposition party in the province of KwaZulu-Natal;

(2) notes a letter from Sam Sole, senior editor of the Sunday Times, to Roger Burrows, DA MPL, KwaZulu-Natal Legislature, informing him of a story about MEC S’bu Ndebele and taxi violence and how to ask questions related to the matter;

(3) notes further that the letter has exposed and proved the ANC’s suspicion that certain sections of the media were colluding with the DA;

(4) expresses its disappointment over this unprofessional behaviour by journalists who are in cahoots with the DA, running a campaign of destruction against the ANC Government and black leadership in general; and

(5) condemns the incident and resolves to lodge a formal complaint with the press ombudsman.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Hon members are becoming disorderly. Is there any objection to the motion? [Interjections.] In the light of the objection the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become notice of a motion.

                       DEATH OF NKOSI JOHNSON

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes that Nkosi Johnson, who was an HIV/Aids activist, died last Friday; (2) further notes that Nkosi had touched the hearts of and inspired millions of people;

(3) acknowledges that Nkosi challenged the Government’s Aids policies and united millions of South Africans in the fight against HIV/Aids;

(4) calls on the Government to develop a proper cohesive and valid policy on HIV/Aids;

(5) exhorts the health authorities and other stakeholders to strengthen the health education campaign in order to save lives; and

(6) conveys its condolences to the family of Nkosi Johnson.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Is there any objection to the motion?

Mr M A SULLIMAN: I object to the motion, Chairperson.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! In the light of the objection, the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become notice of a motion.

               PROTECTED AREAS AND TRANSNATIONAL PARKS

                         (Draft Resolution)

Rev M CHABAKU: Chairperson, I would like to move a motion on South Africa’s progress on the implementation of the Convention on Biodiversity. I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) on the occasion of World Environment Day, recognises the enormous progress South Africa has made in protecting its natural heritage, as is evidenced by -

   (a)  the expansion of its national parks by 227 307 hectares since
       1994;


   (b)  Minister Moosa's stated intention to increase protected areas to
       8% of South Africa's land;


   (c)  the role which transfrontier national parks are playing in
       bringing the countries of the region together by means of our
       shared natural heritage;


   (d)  the development of the new Gaza-Kruger-Gonarezhou transfrontier
       park, which is welcomed by the Council and is to be the largest
       animal kingdom and queendom in the world; and


   (e)  the agreement which will be signed later this year between South
       Africa and Namibia to combine the Richtersveld and Ais-Ais
       national parks;

(2) is thankful that God’s will is being done here on earth as we try to restore God’s earth, that human beings have damaged through neglect, greed and selfishness; and

(3) commends the efforts of the Government, which is recognising the importance of our environment.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Although it sounded more like a statement, it is nevertheless a motion. Is there any objection to the motion?

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, may I suggest an amendment to the last paragraph? I move as an amendment:

That, in paragraph (3), after Government'' to insertand the private sector’’.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! An amendment has been proposed. Does the hon member agree with the amendment?

Rev M CHABAKU: I irrevocably concur, Chairperson. [Laughter.]

Amendment agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Motion, as amended, agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution, namely:

That the Council -

(1) on the occasion of World Environment Day, recognises the enormous progress South Africa has made in protecting its natural heritage, as is evidenced by -

   (a)  the expansion of its national parks by 227 307 hectares since
       1994;


   (b)  Minister Moosa's stated intention to increase protected areas to
       8% of South Africa's land;


   (c)  the role which transfrontier national parks are playing in
       bringing the countries of the region together by means of our
       shared natural heritage;


   (d)  the development of the new Gaza-Kruger-Gonarezhou trans-frontier
       park, which is welcomed by the Council and is to be the largest
       animal kingdom and queendom in the world; and


   (e)  the agreement which will be signed later this year between South
       Africa and Namibia to combine the Richtersveld and Ais-Ais
       national parks;

(2) is thankful that God’s will is being done here on earth as we try to restore God’s earth, that human beings have damaged through neglect, greed and selfishness; and

(3) commends the efforts of the Government and the private sector, which are recognising the importance of our environment.

                  ESTABLISHMENT OF JOINT COMMITTEE

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That the Council, subject to the concurrence of the National Assembly, establishes a joint committee in terms of Joint Rule 111 to consider the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill, 2001.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution. APPROPRIATION BILL

                           (Policy debate)

Vote No 5 - Provincial and Local Government:

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the hon the Minister and the Deputy Minister. I would also like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Deputy Minister on her appointment. This is her first appearance in this House. I would also like to take this opportunity to welcome special delegates, including the hon MECs from the nine provinces. We appreciate your presence, and we shall now call upon the hon the Minister to address the House.

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, MECs who are here, the hon the Deputy Minister for Provincial and Local Government, and hon members, our national economy involves relations of dominance and asymmetric dependence between the centre and the periphery. This asymmetrical pattern becomes manifest, both between former white areas in the urban centres and black areas within the same centres, as well as in the legendary urban-rural dichotomy.

The advent of democracy brought with it the imperative to create institutions of Government which constitute a catalyst for setting our country on the path to sustainable development. This would, in turn, set the stage for us to tackle the paramount challenge of redeeming the promise of a better life for all our people.

Given the base from which we started, some have said that we have, in a short time, achieved more than we have a right to expect. Until recently, this country had 834 municipalities, many of which were nonviable entities, mired in debt and saddled with staggering problems of inequality. Not only were the majority condemned to a life of misery and despair, but the ideologues, who represented the few that were on the fast track to prosperity, wanted all of us to accept this as a permanent condition of life.

A decisive break with this so-called ``way of life’’ is now in prospect. The inauguration of the new local government system was a milestone development that qualitatively separated one era of South African political life from the next. It opened new horizons to untold numbers across the country.

By reconfiguring the municipal boundaries, reducing the number and increasing the size of municipalities, a framework for creating resilient communities in all parts of the country has been firmly entrenched. We now have a system of local government which not only represents every South African equally, but also makes possible the sharing of the resource base of each city, town and village in an equitable manner between all residents of that locality.

However, as I said recently, I have been sensitised to the stress that the recent changes have placed on local institutions and resources. Consolidating local democracy is, indeed, an immense challenge.

In order to ensure that the newly demarcated municipalities work, it is critical that the other spheres of government, that is national and provincial governments, support local government.

The task of supporting local government is one which Government shares with the SA Local Government Association. Salga faces the challenge of consolidating its own role as the representative voice of local government.

As hon members know, the comparative advantage of this sphere of elected representatives is that it is spatially, socially and politically located in local communities. Salga must use this unique position it occupies to play a leading role in shaping the governance and developmental discourse.

Within the next two years, the primary objective will be to stabilise the local government sphere and put core municipal systems in place for local government. By the year 2010, the core systems should be settled, extended and fully functional.

Beyond this, the collective responsibility of sustaining our system of developmental local government will be a continuing priority.

At the moment, local government faces many challenges. As hon members are well aware, the 1996 census figures put the total population of South Africa at 40 584 000, of which 54% is urban and 46% is rural. Twenty-one per cent of urban dwellers require increased access to basic services, whilst 93,5% of rural dwellers require increased access to some or other services.

This means that across the nation 45,9% of the population requires some form of increased access to municipal services. It is estimated that demand for services will increase by a total of 1 454 000 households by the year 2007.

It is clear, therefore, that in order to meet both the existing need for services and the increased need for a growing number of households, a supreme effort will be required from a wide range of stakeholders. In recognition of this, over the next financial year, R2,2 billion has been allocated by Government for the extension of basic municipal infrastructure to poor households. Also, I am currently in discussion with my colleague the Minister for Public Enterprises, Mr Jeff Radebe, to explore increased co-operation to ensure the delivery of resources at the local level from other Government agencies, especially through parastatals.

Both President Mbeki and the Minister of Finance, Mr Trevor Manuel, told Parliament earlier this year that conditions of macro stability have been achieved. This has now put us in a position to explore new dimensions of taking the battle for sustainable development to greater heights. Central to this will be municipal innovations directed at building and developing local economies. A lot of these activities are contingent upon the harnessing of available resources from all sectors. While a lot of work will have to be done by municipal councillors themselves, we have been in discussions with representatives of the private sector, as a result of which they are assessing their own role in the rolling out of infrastructure projects, especially in areas which are targeted for integrated rural development and urban renewal.

In this regard, it will be recalled that Government adopted two programmes which go by the names of the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy and the Urban Renewal Strategy. These are pivotal programmes which present our three spheres of government - national, provincial and local - with the challenge of working together in ways unprecedented in the history of this country. Appropriately, the Department of Provincial and Local Government was charged with the responsibility of ensuring that work, in the implementation of these programmes, is underpinned both by horizontal and vertical integration.

The planning of the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy is at an advanced stage. Its implementation is on course to begin on 1 July 2002. At the moment, designated Ministers are visiting rural development nodes to work with provincial and local government practitioners, as well as with developmental specialists from the Independent Development Trust, to prepare for the actual implementation.

Meanwhile, the Department of Provincial and Local Government is in the process of establishing a special unit whose task it will be to co-ordinate implementation of both the Rural Development Strategy and the Urban Renewal Strategy.

The theme of my presentation to the National Assembly centred on the overarching principle of building good governance for consolidating democracy, and on realising sustainable development based on the actual conditions of people and communities.

This is the litmus test by which we should measure the effectiveness of our institutions of governance. Systems of governance are useful to the extent that they spawn these outcomes. In the current period, all states and governments are seeking better ways to achieve these objectives, because the birth of a global economy positions the state and institutions of governance at the centre of debates about how to govern in a way that brings about national development.

Research and development is thus a critical function of any department of state. The Department of Provincial and Local Government will strengthen its research and development capability in terms of its mandate, over the next three years, by doing the following. Firstly, the department will establish learning networks and partnerships nationally, internationally, within Government and across all sectors of society so as to map, mobilise and marshal intellectual resources available to the task at hand.

Secondly, the department will engage the public on questions of governance in innovative ways, so as to ensure that its work fosters and strengthens public debate and civic responsibility. Thirdly, the department will develop regular research studies, pioneering research on various issues of governance through which it can engage intellectuals on issues of public policy. Fourthly, it will gather and organise data in viable sets for the purposes of policy and decision-making.

The establishment of a sphere of local government situated at the interface between the state and the citizen, and charged with consolidating local democracy and creating systems in which communities directly influence the allocation of municipal revenues to local preferences, is a conscious step towards building a developmental state in South Africa.

What we have in this country for the first time is, in essence, a local development state with the institutional machinery, powers and functions tailored to the task of improving and extending service delivery; tailored to the task of improving the attack on poverty and underdevelopment at the grass-roots level; and creating conditions for local economic development.

Two questions that have begun to emerge out of this experiment with developmental local governance are, firstly, whether the distribution of powers and functions between the three spheres of government is rational, in the context of an emerging local sphere and the developmental challenges that the country faces, and, secondly, which powers and functions should be devolved to the local government sphere.

The governance and administration cluster has, as one of its priorities, the ongoing review of the powers and functions in Schedules 4 and 5 of the Constitution. Any work that is undertaken in this area will necessarily have implications regarding the reorganising of powers and functions for all spheres, sectors and functions.

The Department of Provincial and Local Government shares the mandate for strengthening the intergovernmental system with the Presidency and the National Treasury. Our plan is to release a discussion document on the intergovernmental division of powers and functions by the end of the 2001- 02 financial year to lay the basis for a policy framework by the end of 2002.

It is clear that there needs to be a framework in terms of which further devolution is managed coherently, without hindering innovations within sectors and functions. To this end, one of the priorities for the department during the next two years is to work with concurrent departments, the provinces, Salga and the Demarcation Board to develop an appropriate policy framework for the devolution of powers and functions.

For a while now, this House has been raising the issue of the development of a national monitoring system that would enable Government and the NCOP to proactively intervene in matters of local governance.

As hon members are aware, the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill has put forward a framework of performance management for local government. This framework is essentially a response to the need for a performance management system, a need that was expressed by this House. It is a framework that will ensure that we continuously monitor the performance of local government in various critical areas of strategic importance while ensuring that we identify early warning signals to enable us to be proactive and provide targeted support to needy municipalities.

We are soon going to publish general key performance indicators for local governments. These are essentially indicators that national Government will look at in assessing the progress municipalities are making in improving the quality of life of our people and the contribution that they are making towards meeting national priorities of Government. This is an important step that will help bring our vision of developmental local government to fruition.

Significant progress has also been made with regard to proposals on the promotion and protection of the constitutional rights of Khoisan communities in South Africa as highlighted by the President on several occasions. In addition to the depiction in our coat of arms of the Khoisan language and culture, a comprehensive policy document has been compiled and integrated into the draft Green Paper on traditional leadership and institutions. This will be published and distributed for public comment in the near future.

After the finalisation of the White Paper on traditional leadership, we shall embark on the process of introducing permanent legislation which provides for the role of this institution in our system of government. The legislation in question is envisaged in section 212 of our country’s Constitution. The new legislation will also make it possible for us to establish a national independent commission to investigate traditional leadership disputes and claims.

The integration of traditional leadership cannot be adequately restored without dealing with those cases of traditional leaders who were allegedly imposed on people or those who were illegitimately deposed for their opposition to the old order. Some provinces, under pressure from affected traditional leaders and royal families, established commissions which have done some work in this regard. The product of that work will be integrated into a national process which will be based on a more coherent national policy position.

The policy document on the Khoisan community mainly focuses on the following: firstly, the accommodation of Khoisan interests within the soon- to-be-established Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities; secondly, the claim by Khoisan communities to the status of indigenous people, or first-nation status, in South Africa; thirdly, leadership structures within Khoisan communities, and their recognition; and, lastly, the establishment of a national representative body for Khoisan communities.

These matters were part of the agenda of a meeting I held yesterday with a delegation from the Organisation of Traditional Leaders of South Africa. I will also have discussions soon with some premiers concerning these issues and our respective responsibilities in this regard.

We have also set aside funds to conduct further research on some outstanding issues related to Khoisan communities. A conference is also planned for later this year at which other interested parties and stakeholders will be given an opportunity to contribute to the finalisation of policy positions on matters effecting our Khoisan communities.

We have also spent considerable time assessing the issue raised by the people of Orania. The community of Orania took court action to stop the disestablishment of the existing transitional representative council of Orania in terms of the demarcation process. The court ruled that the case be postponed for an indefinite period and that Orania would continued to exist as an entity.

The continued existence of the Orania TRC is only for purposes of enabling the community to negotiate with Government on issues which lie at the base of their court application.

As directed by Cabinet, I brought together a group of people yesterday whom I have charged with the responsibility of examining the feasibility or otherwise of reviewing the municipal status of Orania as requested by its community. I have requested the team to report back to me by not later than the end of July this year. Their report will put me in a position to recommend to Cabinet the most appropriate course of action to be taken in this regard.

I have no doubt in my mind that the department and the Ministry will be carrying in the next few years a fairly punishing load. I have, however, the satisfaction of knowing that the burden will be shared amongst practitioners in all the spheres of Government and the rest of South African civil society. This has enhanced our hope for and confidence in a bright future for our country. [Applause.]

Mr L G LEVER: Chairperson, is it a service or is it a business? This is one of the crucial questions confronting local government today.

While service delivery to the poor and the extension of infrastructure are at the heart of the White Paper reform and express common values which we all espouse, the mere transformation of the local government systems is no guarantee that we will achieve this aim.

The previous system was perfectly capable of delivering to the entire community, but lacked the necessary communal values to do so. Despite the intent, there is no guarantee that we will be any more successful with the new system than with the old if we retain the same untenable dichotomy as that which characterises the present struggle in Government of labour policy versus macroeconomic policy, thus choosing sides between the community and the municipality, as if the two need always be in opposing camps.

At present communities are not receiving the services they require. Municipal workers are being paid by borrowing from pension and medical contributions to overcome the gap left by the nonpayment of rates. Instead of operating as an organic whole, municipal finances are more or less a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

This cannot continue, no matter what system of local government is in place. Consider that we spent R40 million on management support programmes in the previous budget year, and now have budgeted an 85% increase to R75 million to bolster the lack of municipal capacity existing at present. Add to this the fact that, despite transitional grants of R100 million for the present financial year and R250 million for the following two financial years, this is unlikely to be sufficient to effect the structural adjustments necessary to facilitate the changeover to the new systems, including provision for the retrenchment of staff, writing off bad debts and the fact that approximately R14 billion is owed to municipalities by defaulting ratepayers. How do we move forward against these odds?

The Minister himself speaks of the daunting challenges for municipal service delivery in South Africa today. Conservatively, it is estimated that the total cumulative backlog in municipal infrastructure and services is approximately to the value of R50 billion. According to the analysis of the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework prepared for the previous term, if these backlogs were addressed by public-sector resources only, many communities would only receive adequate infrastructure 65 years from today.

This figure alone should be enough to persuade communities, labour unions and committed councillors to welcome the private sector as partners in the service of the community. Furthermore, we should grasp the challenges of economic change at local government level through an honest assessment of the performance capabilities of local government, and in particular the rural areas.

Actually there is only one answer to the question posed at the beginning. It is not a case of: Is it a service, or is it a business? If not a business, it will not be a service, not to employees, nor to ratepayers. The make-or-break of the present structure of local government lies in facing harsh realities: Implement indigent policies; make those who can, pay for services; insist on the political commitment of municipal councils and employees to provide quality service; and embrace the economic discipline to provide services at an affordable level, doing so in a way that is sustainable over the long term, regardless of the short-term cost.

Any other choices will result in short-term political gains which will be paid, as always, in the long term by the very people our new system is supposed to prioritise. [Applause.]

Mr M BHABHA: Chair, the position that the DP has taken in this debate is most unfortunate. It is unfortunate, because if we were to engage in a meaningful debate, one would expect that a constructive alternative would be afforded, instead of the endless and mindless whingeing that we have become so accustomed to. [Interjections.] It is actually becoming irritating.

I am not at all surprised at the positions that my learned friend has just taken, because so bereft of ideas is the DP that there is not a single provision in the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act or in the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act that it can claim ownership of, not one. I want to ask Adv Lever to tell me how he would show his grandchildren that he was part of this process. [Interjections.]

Sometimes I wonder what the concept of bipartisanship and patriotism is. I was watching former Vice President Al Gore in his concession speech. There was a time when he said: ``America comes first. Let me sit down.’’ This is one little quality I await. [Interjections.]

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Why don’t you sit down then? [Interjections.]

Mr M BHABHA: Chair, it is one thing having catchy sound bites. If sound bites were ideas, we would have a symphony of wisdom from the DP, but it is never forthcoming. In our haste to take up the challenge of the transformation of local government, and perhaps even in the anxiety of facing so massive a challenge, it is so easy to forget the road that we have already traversed. It is a road that saw us hold yet another local government election, one that was peaceful and beyond reproach, thereby further reinforcing the pillars of our democracy. It is in this regard that we must applaud the thousands of voters that voted, all the volunteers, the IEC and the returning officers who made us so proud.

At the risk of sounding slightly melodramatic, it is a road that saw this country embark on a course that is nothing short of miraculous. The process of demarcating this country was in itself no small task, but to complement it with an assessment of the capacity of each of the municipalities in such a short period is nothing short of commendable. I believe that the Municipal Demarcation Board deserves a medal for having achieved this.

At the time of considering the Bill which facilitated the establishment of the Municipal Demarcation Board, the opposition parties did not support it, because they feared the impartiality of the board. I am sure that they will now agree that the members of the board were not only impartial, but also performed their task with distinction.

The implementation of the provisions of the Acts that usher in the new local government regime will require a meaningful and sustained support system from municipalities throughout the country. Since we are graced here with a number of MECs, I think it is appropriate that we actually discuss the role of provincial government vis-à-vis local government.

Very often the term support'' has been conflated withinterference’’. The Constitution places an obligation on the provincial governments and the national Government to strengthen and support local government. That support includes an obligation that becomes particularly relevant at this juncture when local government is being transformed.

With a new dispensation one can expect a posse of so-called experts to lend a hand in training. This, of course, comes at a price. None of these so- called experts have been assessed, nor has the material they deliver been analysed. I would urge the Minister, and the MECs, to ensure that a list is compiled so that we can have an accreditation system. We do not want any Tom, Dick or Harry - sorry, I am being a bit sexist here - coming there, saying that they are consultants and that they know how to train. We need an accreditation system and a list from which municipalities must choose.

This, I suggest, must be done urgently, because our constituency work has exposed a weakness in the training programmes. The support also entails correcting weaknesses in the financial systems of a municipality. On the other hand, for the MECs to be able to perform this duty they require the co-operation of the municipality. I raise this, because it has been our experience during the section 139 interventions that often municipalities invoke constitutional autonomy to ward off an action that they perceive as an interference. I think some of the MECs would agree with us here. I do hope that Salga will encourage its members to view the relationship with the other spheres as necessary and essential, and not necessarily as an invasion. We are at a phase that will require transparency and honesty.

At the best of times the understanding of the division of powers, as envisaged in section 84 of the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, as amended, is complicated. I believe that its reading will be made easier if the objectives that are sought to be achieved through the creation of district councils are revisited. It was always envisaged that a district council would perform functions at a macro level, while category B municipalities would perform the same function at a different level, perhaps a micro level.

A power can thus indeed be disaggregated. It is not a case of a category of municipality performing a power to the exclusion of all the others. The functions that fall within the purview of other Ministries have been placed at district level, pending forthcoming policies from these Ministries.

The uncertainty, particularly at a time when administrations are being restructured, can be a source of anxiety, but we have only one opportunity. I believe that we should rather take our time, and get it right the first time, although I think these Ministries need to be nudged a little. At the time of deliberations on the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill, the committee, being mindful of the lack of an early warning system in the monitoring of municipalities, introduced mechanisms for MECs to detect problems in time. I would urge MECs to use these mechanisms to monitor the progress of respective municipalities.

Furthermore, the National Council of Provinces also has a facility available in the Act to keep itself apprised of the financial conduct of municipalities. To do justice to this highly technical task, can I use my friendship with the Chairperson to persuade the powers that be to, perhaps, look at the restructuring unit within the NCOP to be able to decipher the key performance indicators that the Minister has spoken about. It is a highly technical task, but I think the NCOP can play a very meaningful role in detecting and planning an early warning system.

The Integrated Rural Development Strategy and the Urban Renewal Strategy create an exciting opportunity for the NCOP. It can monitor the progress of the various Ministries that are participating in the identified nodes, all 13 of them. I believe this House can, in a very imaginative way, assist in monitoring the implementation of these strategies. Again, I will rely on my friendship with the Chairperson to look into that.

This brings me to ward committees. The rationale behind this creation was simple, yet profound. It is an effort to allow all communities, be they business, religious or sporting communities, to buy into the democratic process.

The election of a candidate does not necessarily bring with it enthusiastic support for the democratic process from the entire community, particularly from those with whom the ward councillor does not have resonance. The ward committee, in effect, is an attempt to cure a defect in the democratic system itself. It also creates a sense of belonging and bonds a common identity. I would ask the MECs to really ensure that municipalities have the capability of capacitating these ward committees.

Let me finally thank my committee because it has been hard-working. I want to thank the department and Mrs M Titus, who is sitting there. Sorry for troubling her so much, but it is our job, she knows how it is. I also like to thank my counterpart, Yunus Carrim. He is not here, but he has been very helpful. I want to welcome the Deputy Minister to the Ministry and to the NCOP. I just want to tell the Deputy Minister that this House is a very cultured, sovereign House. It gives sanity to Parliament. Parliament consists of two Houses, and we would rather not talk about the other House, but this one is sane. [Laughter.]

I see some of my friends from the press and members of the general public sitting up there. I just want to make one request: that when we assess the failures and successes of councillors in municipalities, I think they must be measured against the magnitude of the task before them. We must not assess them in a vacuum, because they have a huge task. Their performance must be assessed in that context. [Applause.]

Mr D E AFRICA (North West): Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Minister, MECs, hon members, firstly, I would like to congratulate and welcome the new Deputy Minister in the constituency of local government, and hope that we will have added benefits with her presence in our midst. I further wish to congratulate the Minister on the task he has performed in guiding the process of putting in place the new system of local government. The new challenge, however, is to create sustainable capacity within the new municipalities to ensure that the new system meets the challenges our localities face. The new system of local government has the potential to take us in new directions in the field of urban governance and also holds tremendous capacity and potential for cities, towns, villages and the future development process that we envisage.

The vision for local government in our province is the consolidation of an inclusive local government system that is capable of exercising its democratic authority, performing its functions and exercising its powers efficiently and effectively, committed to and capable of working with civil society in an accountable way to reduce poverty, redress inequality, foster security, and fulfil social, economic, cultural, civic and political rights.

The financial situation in most municipalities is not a pleasant one. Municipalities are faced with greater challenges. For instance, the area of operation of some municipalities has increased as a result of the demarcation process. There is a low tax base for most municipalities, and low levels of payment for services - of course, not as a result of unwillingness to pay, but as a result of inability to do so.

Most operational budgets of municipalities are not cash funded. The salary bill of some municipalities has increased due to the amalgamation process. Some municipalities are unable to tap into the dormant revenue base they have, and, of course, also have difficulties in recovering outstanding money owed to them by local debtors, including provincial and national government departments.

In our province, and as part of our endeavour to meet and help local government meet the challenges facing municipalities, the North West provincial government has established a local government development fund to the value of R10 million, which we believe is inadequate, but a good step in the right direction to ensure that we fulfil our obligation effectively in helping municipalities and strengthening their capabilities to carry out their mandate.

During the past two months, the provincial government has received requests from municipalities for urgent financial assistance to the tune of about R55 million. Requests ranged from the construction of minimum office accommodation to the repayment of loans and a host of other challenges that municipalities are facing. It is our humble request to the Ministry, department and Minister to assist provincial governments in their efforts to ensure that the new system of local government is strengthened.

The issue around the management and administration of cross-boundary municipalities needs some attention as well in order to ensure that we remove uncertainties, and clarify the roles and responsibilities of the affected areas.

There is a need to develop a comprehensive, legally binding agreement for all the affected areas. Formalised agreements and memorandums of understanding must be entered into. The joint administration of the cross- boundary municipalities should be seen not only as a responsibility of the MECs for local government, but also in a broader context to ensure that there is no disruption of services, whether those services are from other departments at a provincial level or from other areas as well, so that the municipalities in the cross-boundary areas are not adversely affected.

A number of things will need to be done to ensure that local government becomes the real nucleus in the development of our localities. Not only do we have poor people in many cities and towns, we actually have poor cities with poor people - a situation that could lead to a number of problems at local level.

Therefore, I think the following issues need serious attention: the legacy of arrears inherited by the new system and its impact on the efficiency of this system; the creation of the long-term fund to build capacity; and the consolidation of the new system. Whilst we appreciate the initiative by the department to set up a transition fund, we believe that a long-term fund to help build the capacity of the new system of local government is the best way to go.

We need to have a dedicated focus to help local government, at least over the next 10 years. We therefore propose the establishment of a dedicated national fund which will be focused on assisting local government, because it is our responsibility to ensure that the primary sphere has the necessary capacity to carry out the responsibilities enshrined in the Constitution. The role of the new system is wide and varied, ranging from issues of the environment to mobilising local civic actors to deal with our urban and rural challenges. Therefore, in such a context it is only logical that the municipality must have the necessary capacity. As the provincial government we will do our best to ensure that this happens, and we will also request that the national Government support these efforts.

The issue of the ward committees in critically promoting local participation and building a new appreciation of local government within our community still needs serious attention. Various organised interests will meet at ward committee level. If there is no understanding of the role of these ward committees, serious delays in the implementation of projects and service delivery may result. Indications are that questions are beginning to arise about the ward committees.

Various local authorities have their own approaches throughout the country. Some of the questions are: Are these committees political committees? If so, what is it that they are going to do? Are they advisory committees? Are they development committees? Or are they a combination of all three? Is there a national framework that defines exactly what the role of the ward committees will be, so that we do not allow each municipality to develop a mechanism that would be inappropriate to carry out a national responsibility of restructuring and developing our local communities? We need to clarify these issues and develop a collective approach, as provincial government, local government and national Government.

Regarding traditional leaders, we believe that there is sufficient scope to address the issue of traditional leadership without necessarily changing the Constitution, and we fully support the initiative taken by the Minister to find appropriate accommodation in the new system. South Africa cannot afford a dual system of governance at local level. Participation and the issue of the functions and powers of traditional leaders in the new system is a matter for all South Africans. Therefore the broad consultation initiated by the department and the Minister in particular has our full support. We believe that the institution is about communities.

We have demonstrated a desire to see development in their local areas, but they have also proved their commitment to the new system by voting in the December 2000 election. There is therefore no doubt that they have a role and say in how the institution of traditional leadership can enhance the capacity of our people to participate together at local level.

We are also happy to learn that the remuneration of councillors will now come from the national fiscus. We want to congratulate the department on its initiatives and express the view that this will go a long way towards giving added momentum to the process at local level.

The role of local government in the economy cannot be over-emphasised. There is a very clear relationship between governance and the economy and, therefore, a strengthening of local government to play this role is essential. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Cllr H JENKINS (Salga): Chairperson, hon Minister for Provincial and Local Government and Deputy Minister, hon members of the NCOP, MECs present, and special delegates, on behalf of Salga, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Deputy Minister on her new position.

The SA Local Government Association, Salga, as members know, is a statutory body broadly mandated to represent and resource local government at national, regional and international level. This mandate stems from the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, the Organised Local Government Act, the White Paper on Local Government and the Salga constitution.

We like to view ourselves as a link between our individual municipalities and their employees, as well as between our individual municipalities and national Government. We provide a platform for uniformity and a collective approach where possible.

Specifics in terms of our mandate are the development of capacity in local government, especially with regard to councillors; acting as a resource for local government, for example in legislative and other relevant updates; acting as an employer organisation for local government, including the local government bargaining unit; representing local government in all policy, legislative, consultative and executive processes affecting local government, such as we are doing today; and representing local government internationally with a bias towards gleaning as much as possible from cases of best practice.

Over the past few years Salga has made a mark on the landscape of local government in South Africa. Like all committed and progressive organisations, however, we would love to have made an even greater impact, but that is on our agenda as we proceed decisively forward. Some of the highlights of our existence over the few years are the following.

On labour relations, besides generally building capacity within the employer sector, we provided ongoing advice and support on labour relations matters, made inputs on the development of labour relations policies; and we have started a process of bringing about greater uniformity in the conditions of service, employee benefits, the mobility of employees, appropriate remuneration frameworks, performance management systems, alternative service delivery, rationalisation of pension and medical aid schemes, change management and organisational transformation, and the transfer of staff from provincial to local governments.

With regard to the municipal elections of 2000, we ran a council training programme. On voter education, we mobilised town clerks and chief executive officers to serve as municipal electoral officers; provided, through our member councils, infrastructure for running the elections; and availed the necessary personnel to help conduct the electoral process.

In policy, our main point of intervention was on electricity restructuring, and local governments’ finances and legislation. On capacity-building and training, we have run a core councillor training programme and an executive leadership programme.

In intergovernmental relations, we participated, through the NCOP, in processes involving a number of Bills relevant to our work. Worth mentioning are the Preferential Procurement Policy Framework Bill, the Fire Brigade Services Amendment Bill, the Division of Revenue Bill, the Local Government: Municipal Electoral Bill, the Cross-Boundary Municipalities Bill and the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill.

The date 5 December 2000 will go down in the annals of South African history as the day when local government made a decisive break with the past, joining provincial and national Government in giving the applicable majority party the responsibility of delivering basic services and running a developmental type of local government. From that date it is not an ill- defined council, but the relevant governing party which is held accountable.

Developmental local government focuses on the role that municipalities will have to play as agents of delivery of basic services and the promotion of public participation and accountability. The system calls on local government to take the lead in the fight against poverty, to ensure a sustainable livelihood for all and to promote social and economic development.

In his address at the opening of Parliament this year, reiterated in his address at the Salga conference in April, President Mbeki emphasised the importance of the local sphere of government in giving our people a better life. Local government, it has been said, is the sphere of government closest to the people. It is felt on a daily basis, and in terms as practical as the availability or nonavailability of such basic necessities as water and electricity. For that reason, its success or failure is also regarded as a success or failure of the other two spheres of government.

Given this mammoth task, the question is: What role can organised local government play in ensuring that municipalities fulfil the mandate flowing from the resultant challenges? At its national conference this year, Salga reflected on the strategic role that organised local government can play.

Based on that, a strategy informed by the following critical factors was adopted: inadequate capacity for the implementation and management of new systems and functions of local government; the need for councillors to demonstrate leadership in municipal planning and decision-making; the financial viability of some of the municipalities, including newly demarcated ones; large disparities in resources and capacities between municipalities, translating into varied requests for support from Salga; the threat posed to the sustainability of municipalities by infrastructural backlog, whose genesis lies in the apartheid system; major interventions required for rural development and urban renewal; the challenge of providing free basic services; and the entrenchment of public participation and accountability.

Our plans for the next financial year are strongly influenced by the above, and are founded on our understanding of our mandate, referred to earlier. Key to our programme are the following strategic objectives: increasing effectiveness and efficiency to enhance the level of quality of service to our members; ensuring the sustainability of organised local government by enhancing its financial, administrative and political position; fostering the policies, strategies, operational integration and cohesion of national and provincial components; supporting and facilitating capacity-building within municipalities; entrenching and expanding the role of organised local government in human resource management and development within the local government sphere; positioning organised local government at the centre of its knowledge and information management; positioning organised local government as the hub of co-ordination and interface with municipalities; supporting and facilitating social and economic development; proactively representing local government through effective intergovernmental relations, advocacy and policy implementation; and supporting and consolidating the transformation of local government through the development of policies and best practices.

This programme, informed as it is by the challenges of integrating previously separate and disparate municipalities, will necessarily be costly in human resource and systems development terms. It calls for high- level programmes and design and management skills. It demands project management skills of a high order. It requires solid communication strategies and the consequent communication management skills. It needs organisational design experts to advise our constituent municipalities. Seasoned, trained practitioners will be necessary to educate councillors about the intricacies of the system and how to harness these for development.

Through this programme, Salga will, while modernising its own systems and procedures, concomitantly transfer such experience and knowledge to its constituency, enhancing the delivery mandate of local government in the process. Our municipalities are faced with challenges of integrated development, integrated budgets, information technology, and common and electronic-based billing systems produced at levels below the current average of R30,00 per bill. They have to roll out infrastructure for the extension of free basic amounts of water and electricity to previously excluded communities.

They have to establish ward committees and evolve legally obligatory, ongoing consultative and communication mechanisms with their communities. They also have to establish their own portfolio committees. More importantly, though, they have to capacitate these committees accordingly, if the committees are to fulfil their intended role.

They have to create and implement credit control systems, which will improve service payment levels, so that there are adequate resources for infrastructural maintenance and further development. They have to foster economic development, job creation and poverty alleviation.

All these challenges will need a certain amount of common leadership and points of advice and guidance. Technical expertise will be required. Experts outside of Salga and municipalities will have to be engaged. Workshops, seminars and conferences will have to be held … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr B J TOLO (Mpumalanga): Mr Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, maybe I should, at this stage, also congratulate the Deputy Minister on her appointment. We are looking forward to working with her in the department.

MECs present here and members of this honourable House, it is our greatest pleasure to be part of the Department of Provincial and Local Government budget review process in the NCOP this afternoon. This is so because it happens at a challenging and interesting time in the history of local government in this, our country. The December 5 elections are now behind us, and we are now faced with the task of establishing these new municipalities which are to be different in many respects from the ones we had hitherto.

The main brief of the municipalities we had before the December elections was just that of service delivery. Over and above service delivery, our present municipalities have assumed a new mantle, that of being developmental in their nature. This is a tall order for our municipalities, especially those in the rural areas. For our rural municipalities to live up to their constitutional mandate, our task as provinces, as well as that of the national Government, through the Department of Provincial and Local Government, should go beyond ordinary support and monitoring, under otherwise normal circumstances. If we do not do that, our rural municipalities will never be able to achieve sustainable development, with the aim of eliminating poverty, thus creating a better life for the people they serve.

As the province of Mpumalanga, we can report here that we are committed to working hand in glove with the national Government to make these municipalities work, so that they are able to better the lives of the people they serve.

We want to address ourselves to some specific challenges that we face as the Mpumalanga provincial government in relation to municipalities. These are challenges that we need to tackle immediately, if transformation and service delivery are to be meaningful in our province and, indeed, in the whole country.

I now come to the establishment of municipalities. In most of the areas that fell under bantustans there were no municipalities before the advent of democracy in our country in 1994. The local government functions were performed by the bantustan departments of public works, in some, and by the Department of Home Affairs in others. This resulted in the lack of basic municipal infrastructure such as offices and basic machinery for street maintenance. This therefore means that it will be impossible for such councils to grade or even maintain a street that leads to a school or a clinic.

In other instances, in areas in our province such as Kanyamazane and Kabokweni in Mpumalanga, people who are mobile park their cars some 100 metres away from their homes due to inaccessibility of the streets. We are saying this because we want the approach to funding to discriminate in favour of such municipalities. We want to hasten to say that this situation is a legacy of apartheid because services in those areas were of an inferior standard, and we are faced with the task of correcting the situation.

Another problem related to the above is the question of cross-border municipalities. This honourable House will be aware of the fact that, as Mpumalanga, we have categories A, B and C cross-boundary municipalities with both the Northern Province and Gauteng. The agreement between us and the respective provinces is that there is joint political responsibility and administration. On the surface, joint administration seems to be easy, but its practical implementation is a different ball game altogether.

Our understanding is that there is cross-boundary activity with regard to municipal functions alone. Other government services are undertaken by the respective provinces. A cross-boundary category B municipality, in our view, must be seen to be a functional unit. Even the people in that municipality must see themselves as one. But because they are getting services like health and others from different provinces, there are bound to be differences because policies in the different provinces may not necessarily coincide. For instance, I am also responsible for traffic and traffic control in the province. If one has this kind of situation it may lead to a point where one might have cars in a cross-boundary municipality registered in two provinces. In our situation we have to register them in both Gauteng and Mpumalanga. We think that it is an anomaly.

Another anomaly happened early this year when the provincial local government associations were formed. They were asking: ``Where should we affiliate? Should we affiliate in the Northern Province, Mpumalanga or both?’’ These are some of the practical problems that this question of cross-boundary municipalities has. These are teething problems and we hope that they will be sorted out as time goes on.

The existence of a consolidated municipal infrastructure programme goes a long way in addressing infrastructure backlogs in our province and we have no doubt that the same applies to other provinces as well. It also goes a long way in addressing the problem of joblessness as many people, through this programme, are able to put food on the table for their children. We are advocating a substantial increase in funding for this programme if we are to, once and for all, get rid of the bucket system that is still prevalent in towns like Amersfoort, Amsterdam and many other towns in our province.

We also want to remind this House that there is not a single white person using the bucket system in Mpumalanga and I am sure that this applies also in other provinces. It is a legacy of apartheid.

The Government’s policy of free basic services is a good one which, as Mpumalanga, we have unreservedly embraced. It is clear, even to the doubting Thomases, that this Government is a caring one. But unfortunately, for some people, especially in rural areas, whom this policy is meant to help, the policy will remain a mirage for quite some time. This is so because many of these people do not have access to a basic supply of water, for instance. If they do not have the basic supply it is therefore impossible for us to give them the basic free water. It means therefore that we must, as we are doing, first roll out these services to the people before we can realise this very important policy.

As Mpumalanga, we are fortunate that traditional leaders in municipalities like Marble Hall, Groblersdal and Luthuli, and district councils like Sekhukhune and Eastvaal have decided and are participating in the proceedings of their respective municipalities in accordance with the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act. We want to publicly thank these traditional leaders for having decided to put the interests of their communities before their own selfish interests. We thank them for having realised that there is no way in which they can enhance the development of their subjects by staying away from those councils.

We have no doubt in our minds that, through our continued engagement with those who have not yet participated, they will in due course do so.

The only small problem with regard to traditional leaders is the fact that the law allows us to pay them only out-of-pocket expenses, which, we think, does not cover sitting allowances. We argue that the law should be changed so that they get sitting allowances like councillors who come from category B municipalities into the district municipalities.

Regarding the question of powers and functions, as a province, we have gone a long way in trying to allocate these powers and functions to different municipalities. We need also to be aware that this process can only be completed after two years. On this note, we want to thank the Municipal Demarcation Board, which has always been on our side when dealing with matters, especially its chairperson Dr Sutcliffe. The Mpumalanga provincial government, through the department of local government, traffic control and traffic safety, is committed to ensuring that we have strong municipalities capable of fulfilling their functions and managing their own affairs. But we must also indicate that sometimes, due to financial constraints, we do not live up to these expectations. Our departmental budget, this financial year, was cut so that as a whole government we should be in a position to address the problems that were faced by the social services departments, which were underbudgeted from 1994.

We are all aware that the national norm is that these departments should get 85% of the entire provincial cake. In our province, up to now, they have been given 72%.

We want to thank fraternal countries and organisations, like the European Union, the Norwegian government and the German Technical Corporation, for making funds available for us to be able to train councillors and officials. We can only say that the world wants to see our democracy succeeding so that, as a nation, we can take our rightful place among the community of nations as a truly liberated country. The depth of democracy in any country is measured by the extent to which local government is developed. In any country, if a despot comes into power, the first casualty is local government. Let us jealously guard our democracy by building strong municipalities. [Applause.]

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, I rise in support of Budget Vote No 5. Let me follow in the footsteps of my colleagues and congratulate the hon the Deputy Minister on her appointment. I would like to tell her that we welcome her to the world of local government.

The mission of the Northern Cape department of housing and local government is to promote, facilitate and monitor effective and efficient local governance through the achievement of a number of strategic goals.

These strategic goals include continuous service delivery improvements, the transformation of local government through participatory democracy, the delivery of municipal services and infrastructure to the disadvantaged communities and the transformation of our local communities through integrated planning and development.

To fulfil the above mission and strategic goals, the provincial department has rationalised its programme structure and restructured its budget to improve service delivery of the following services and functions: firstly, strengthening and assisting in transforming the institutions of local government and ensuring capacity, viability, transparency and good governance practice; secondly, ensuring better disaster management readiness of local government institutions; thirdly, facilitating local government institutions as they prepare integrated development plans within the context of a provincial framework; fourthly, implementation and quality control of infrastructure projects; and lastly, preparing and implementing provincial Bills and regulations pertaining to the development and functions of local government institutions.

The transition to the new system of local government in the Northern Cape and in all other provinces has been a very painful, though necessary, exercise. It has been painful because the process of transformation on which we have embarked has no parallel internationally. There is no corresponding system of local government anywhere in the world from which we can learn and draw lessons. Yet this is a process which was necessitated by the extreme inequalities which resulted from our previous system of local government.

The previous system of local government paid no regard whatsoever to the people for whom it was intended. Our townships and localities were built without adequate infrastructure, such as roads. We were not situated in close proximity to major centres of economic activity and to social amenities.

Parents had to wake up at three in the morning to go to work, and arrived home at ten at night. In such a situation there was little room for family interaction and parental guidance, which resulted in children dropping out of school or becoming involved in crime. Decisions which affected communities, such as increases in rates, were taken without consultation with the affected communities and were forced down their throats.

With the new system of local government, we are trying to eradicate these inequalities. A defining feature of the new system is the space it offers ordinary people to become actively involved in governance. It also gives expression to the notion in the Constitution of developmental local government. This means that local government is not just an important site for the delivery of services, but is crucial to the economic and social development of our people.

Fundamental to fulfilling this developmental role is the requirement of the new system for all municipalities to adopt integrated development plans. Essentially, an IDP sets out the vision, needs, priorities, goals and strategies of municipal councils to develop the municipality during its term of office, as part of a long-term vision and plan for development.

The Northern Cape department of housing and local government has embarked on a campaign to encourage communities to have a say in both the content of the IDP and the process by which it is drafted in the various municipalities. I am glad to announce that a number of municipalities in the Northern Cape have already started to initiate local economic development projects as part of their respective integrated development plans.

The municipalities of Garies, Douglas, Philipstown, Strydenburg, Kimberley, Riemvasmaak and Pella have already started developmental projects, such as the construction of informal stalls and industrial hives for SMMEs; the recycling of waste products to produce kerbs, gravel and paving; the plantation of lucerne and olives; and even the establishment of fish farms and tourism projects.

In addition to this, five municipalities in our province, namely Barkly West, Concordia, Keimoes, Port Nolloth and Richmond, are in the process of conducting local economic regeneration studies. From the above, it is clear that the Northern Cape has moved quite rapidly in implementing the new system of local government. But because transformation of local government in the Northern Cape is still in its infancy stage, we will, necessarily, experience problems in its transition to maturity.

We therefore appreciate the assistance given to us by the Minister for Provincial and Local Government in providing R8,9 million for the local government transitional fund of our municipalities to assist them in their transition periods.

In conclusion, regarding ward committees and public participation, we have a situation in the Northern Cape in which one will find that each and every municipality has its own format of how to structure ward committees. I would like to say to the Minister that I think it is about time for us to perhaps look at regulations so that we can have some uniformity as to how these ward committees must be established and how they are going to function. I think that will assist us a great deal.

With regard to the monitoring role of the NCOP as far as local government is concerned, I think one can do more work in this regard, because this institution is the ideal House to deal with these kinds of interventions. Even if it comes to early warning systems, I think the NCOP can play a major role.

In conclusion, I want to thank the Minister and his officials for the co- operation that they have given us. They are always there with us, and we wish them well. [Applause.]

Mr E T VEZI (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Minister, MECs present and colleagues, in examining this budget and its objectives, one is pleased to note that the rationale behind it is one of strengthening and improving local and provincial government. This is an admirable objective, particularly in view of the positive effect that it will have on strengthening intergovernmental relations.

By streamlining the system of transfer of the fiscal aspects from central Government to provincial and municipal government, there can only be a distinct improvement in the equity of the proportion stakeholders will enjoy. Furthermore, the fewer steps taken in this process, the less the chances of corruption become. Although there will be an initial necessary budgetary increase in order to service the key objectives and programmes being implemented by the department of Provincial and Local Government, we are already beginning to see dividends from these initiatives, in terms of the increasing efficiency of local government and the beginning of a positive surge in employment in the areas involved.

These forward-looking plans are being formulated in a way that takes into account any log jams that may be encountered along the way. The many prongs of this initiative can only lead us into a future that becomes ever more secure and which ensures that all areas develop at an equal rate.

The money spent on this development now will bring dividends of security and wellbeing to our entire nation. If we work patiently according to the plans and have faith in the success of this long-term enterprise, we can only look to a bright future. With those few words, I support the Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Mr L S GABELA (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Minister, MECs present and members present, it is with pride that achievements leading to the 5 December local government elections brought about an end to the racial divide in terms of boundaries that determined our councils. Indeed, all formations put before the electorate manifestoes serve as the summary of respective proposed programmes for the next five years. Without doubt, our people look forward to the realisation of the said promises. Commitment and responsibility on the part of the elected representatives must be realised through work done that meaningfully impacts on the lives of the poor.

In this regard, I would like to quickly comment on concerns surrounding the role, relationship and powers of traditional leaders which have to do with local government.

This is an issue that requires to be handled with great sensitivity and responsibility. In doing so, however, we must not allow those who want to make a mockery out of nothing to succeed.

The poor still expect much to be done in changing their lives for the better. These are mainly poor women in rural areas. Even though they may have a choice of which political formation they vote for, I can tell hon members that for some, getting access to clean water, electricity and jobs to get them going matters more than matters related to a political conscience.

Local government has a duty to positively make an impact on the lives of the rural poor. All this is more important to them than which political formation facilitates the realisation of these services. Political affiliation is less important, as long as there is betterment in their lives.

At the point where we are anxiously waiting for local government to make an impact on our programme of speeding up delivery, it is disturbing to learn that there are people who want to derail the process towards the realisation of the dreams of our people. It is most embarrassing that there are people who have been elected for this duty. I here want to condemn unequivocally councillors who participate in processes that seek to go as far as setting ultimatums for Government. They have been elected to deliver on their promises, yet they engage in petty, political, opportunistic activities. We are not going to accept this.

Laws and regulations governing local governments will have to be put into effect. There are those of us who believe in the betterment of the lives of the poor. They will always be there and it may even mean that we must declare by-elections in some instances. Some of us will be there to contest the election and serve the people.

In conclusion, let me raise two issues briefly. We would like to know what is happening, because we are dissatisfied with the delay on issues related to the legislative framework on municipal finance management processes. I am aware that a process was started last year. There was some consultation at provincial level and now nothing is happening.

I also want to raise a point in relation to municipalities that have no ratepayers. I recognise the point in the presentation by the Minister that there are programmes under way to address this problem. It is only through a holistic approach that we will be in a position to address this problem, because we have municipalities that have no rate base. This is not our creation, but we have a responsibility to make a point of it that these municipalities, in the long term, are able to run on their own. [Applause.]

Mnr J HORNE: Voorsitter, agb Minister en ook die nuutaangestelde adjunkminister, ontvang ons dank. Ons wens u alle sterkte toe op die pad vorentoe.

Plaaslike regering is en bly die belangrikste vlak van regering. Indien plaaslike regering doeltreffend funksioneer, lei dit tot die suksesvolle werking van die provinsiale en nasionale regerings. In dié opsig het die Departement van Plaaslike Regering gepoog om die nuutgestigte munisipaliteite te stabiliseer en die samesmelting glad te laat verloop.

Daar moet egter kennis geneem word dat, alhoewel die samevoeging nou ten volle afgehandel is, dit ‘n lang pad is alvorens munisipaliteite tot hul reg sal kom sover dit dienslewering betref.

Die samesmeltingsproses, soos voorgehou in wetgewing, word egter gekortwiek omdat munisipaliteite nie die finansiële vermoë het om die proses ten volle in werking te stel nie. Hiermee word bedoel dat die nuwe plaaslike owerhede meer kantoorruimte nodig het en rekenaars opgegradeer moet word. Dit alles is kostedoeltreffend. Wat kommerwekkend is, is dat die betalingskultuur ná die afgelope verkiesing gekenmerk word deur ‘n insinking wat ‘n nadelige uitwerking op die bedryfsbegroting van plaaslike regerings het. Dit is ‘n landswye neiging.

Provinsiale regerings sal nougeset moet let op genoemde feite, anders sal die verwagtings wat vir die nuwe munisipaliteite gekoester word, nooit realiseer nie. Ons vertrou die geïntegreerde, volhoubare landelike ontwikkelingstrategie en die stedelike vernuwingstrategie sal dié probleme aanpak.

Dit sal gepas wees as die Minister meer duidelikheid kan verskaf oor die moontlike verandering van provinsiale grense, aangesien hy in sy verslag daarvan melding gemaak het met verwysing na munisipaliteite wat oor provinsiale grense strek. Die vraag ontstaan of slegs sekere dele van provinsiale grense hersien gaan word, waar en wanneer dit gaan gebeur en of provinsies wat daardeur geraak word, vroegtydig in kennis gestel sal word.

Wat gratis basiese dienste betref, het plaaslike regerings nie voldoende geld nie, veral in die landelike gebiede, en kan dit alleen geskied as meer IOT-geld toegeken word. Hoe groter die toekenning uit die fonds, hoe groter die bydrae wat gemaak kan word tot die lewering van basiese dienste aan mense met ‘n maandelikse inkomste van minder as R800.

Ons hoop die vrese en kommer van tradisionele leiers sal so spoedig moontlik besweer word sodat die werksaamhede van plaaslike regerings in volle gang kan voortgaan.

Ten slotte vertrou ons dat die Minister en sy departement die begroting sal bedryf en bestuur soos omskryf en ons wens hulle sterkte daarmee toe. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr J HORNE: Chairperson, hon Minister as well as the newly appointed Deputy Minister, receive our thanks. We wish you everything of the best on the road ahead.

Local government is and remains the most important level of government. If local government functions effectively, this brings about successful functioning of the provincial and national governments. In this respect the Department of Provincial and Local Government endeavoured to stabilise the newly established municipalities and to facilitate their smooth amalgamation.

One should take note, however, that although the amalgamation has now been successfully completed, there is a long way to go before municipalities will come into their own as far as service delivery is concerned.

The amalgamation process, as proposed in legislation, is hampered, however, because municipalities do not have the financial capability of putting the process into operation fully. By this I mean that the new local authorities require larger office space and that their computers must be upgraded. All this is cost-effective. What gives cause for concern is that after the recent election the culture of payment is characterised by a decline, which has a detrimental effect on the operational budget of local governments. This is a countrywide trend.

Provincial governments will have to note the aforementioned facts carefully, or the expectations that exist in respect of the new municipalities will never be realised. We trust that the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy and the Urban Renewal Strategy will tackle these problems.

It would be appropriate for the Minister to provide greater clarity concerning the possible changes to the provincial borders, seeing that he made mention of it in his report, with reference to municipalities that stretch across provincial borders. The question arises whether only certain parts of provincial borders are going to be reviewed, where and when this is going to take place and whether the affected provinces will be notified in good time. As regards free basic services, local governments do not have sufficient money, especially in the rural areas and this can only take place if more economic development money is allocated. The larger the allocations from the fund, the larger the contribution that could be made to delivering basic services to people with a monthly income of less than R800.

We hope that the fears and concern of traditional leaders will be allayed as speedily as possible so that the activities of local governments can continue at full tilt.

In conclusion, we trust that the Minister and his department will operate and manage the budget as defined, and we wish them everything of the best in their endeavour. [Applause.]]

Mr J MASWANGANYI (Northern Province): Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, MECs present, members of the House, let me join my colleagues who commended the Minister’s policy debate and congratulate the hon Botha on her appointment as Deputy Minister.

Our province is delighted with the prospects that 2001-02 holds for us. This is so in the light of the enormous challenges and tasks in the current financial year and beyond. We have made a breakthrough in the finalisation and establishment of districts and local municipal structures. We have in the interim also finalised the decentralisation of powers and functions to municipalities. This we have done to ensure that our people get the services that they require in as prompt and efficient a manner as possible.

Our allocated budget will therefore be utilised to champion this noble objective, bearing in mind that we continue to face increasing demands for the provision of quality and speedy delivery of services against shrinking budgets.

In the midst of this transitional phase, we continue to face enormous challenges that have major financial implications, and that I now turn to address.

We are currently engaged in a process of regional and district boundary realignment that is aimed at phasing out regional operations in support of district municipalities. This will also ensure a well co-ordinated institutional arrangement, at both district and local level, capable of responding effectively to its mandate.

The need for institutional realignment also implies that we need to speedily conclude the transfer of 2 866 regional staff members to municipalities. Our record shows that out of 2 866 staff members we have already transferred 2 454. We are left with 412 to be transferred before the end of this financial year.

Most critical is that we still have an obligation to pay the leave gratuities of about 1 823 staff members. In addition to this are the outstanding payments for promotion and for the second and third notches. The estimated total amount for payment is around R43 million. The budget allocated is utilised to make provision for the establishment and capacitation process of district and local municipalities. We have already seconded a number of officials to assist with development and planning at municipal level. Coupled with this is the challenge of deploying competent leadership and skilled staff to ensure quality and speedy delivery of services.

In order for us to accomplish this task, we need to ensure the deployment of leadership and employment of skilled staff at municipal level. Where our municipalities lack competent staff and the necessary resources to deliver services, for example fire-fighting, water and electrical services, we definitely require a transfer of staff and assets from national and provincial departments to local and district municipalities. For this to happen, we also need to develop and to work on an agreed and acceptable transfer of staff and assets framework.

All these envisaged responsibilities raise serious budgetary obligations for the provincial government, and the case for additional financial assistance is a given.

Regarding disaster management, we would like to commend the national Government’s prompt response to the damage caused by the flood disaster during February and March last year. [Interjections.] We want to inform this House that there are many reconstruction projects taking place in the province, including houses being built in rural areas, bridges and other public infrastructure.

I also want to indicate that our responsibility for disaster management goes beyond the establishment of disaster management units and a disaster management centre, to the actual capacitation of municipalities to manage disaster.

I want to mention the fact that we have highly respected and visionary traditional leaders in the Northern Province. During the previous financial year our department met with Contralesa, and came out of that meeting with a memorandum of agreement on the participation of traditional leaders in municipalities. Following that meeting our traditional leaders also met with the President, Thabo Mbeki, on 27 April 2001. He has promised to meet them again to discuss, amongst other issues, their role in municipal councils.

On Tuesday last week, during the sitting of the house of traditional leaders, traditional leaders emerged victoriously with a concrete decision to confirm their commitment and willingness for continued participation in municipal councils, compared to the wave of boycotts in other provinces. We do not have boycotts in our province. This decision was made out of their own conviction, commitment and love for the development of their own country, province and localities where they live.

In support of our traditional leaders, and in view of the progress we have made, our department has already commenced with special programmes for capacity-building in legislative, financial and information technology issues. In supporting the capacity-building initiative, we have, for this financial year, allocated R2 million for the installation of computers in tribal offices. Tribal offices can now be used as service points so that our rural masses do not have to travel long distances to offices in towns where they have to apply for birth certificates, death certificates and other services. They need only walk short distances and get services at tribal offices.

However, there is a concern that the Minister would have to address. This concern is the sitting allowance of traditional leaders compared to the out- of-pocket allowance. We appeal to the Minister to attend to this concern so that our traditional leaders can participate effectively in municipalities. However, we also want to condemn the self-appointed spokespersons of traditional leaders who want traditional leaders to boycott municipalities. This we condemn. [Interjections.]

We want to thank the Department of Provincial and Local Government for allocating the transitional fund to assist with the establishment and resourcing of municipalities. We also want to appeal to the Minister to lead the debate with other Ministers that the issue of capacity-building and support to local government should not only be restricted to DPLG and the local government departments in provinces. It is an issue for all national departments and provincial departments.

As the Northern Province we believe that the 2001-02 budget will bring a qualitative change to the lives of our people, and in particular to those of the rural masses.

We support the debate of the budget as presented by the Minister.

Mr B M KHOMPELA (Free State): Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, I rise on behalf of the Free State legislature and the province to support the noble idea put forward by the Minister. We are grateful that we are led by a visionary, otherwise we, as the Free State, would not be here. He is a visionary as he serves the masses of the people who do not have food. [Interjections.]

What municipalities in the Free State want to achieve will determine what services they provide and how those services will be provided. To this extent all 25 municipalities in the Free State have undertaken a strategic planning session that underpins the integration of all existing integrated development plans of the former transitional councils.

The process of fulfilling this has been very comprehensive and very tiring. We hope this process will commence during July 2001. The Department of Provincial and Local Government has already issued guidelines to assist municipalities in this regard. A training programme will be undertaken by the national and the provincial departmental officials to further ensure that municipalities have developed goals informed by good strategies in order to achieve these goals.

Whilst the specific Chapter 6 in the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act will only commence in July 2002, it is gratifying to note that three municipalities in the Free State, namely Mangaung local council, Maluti-a- Phofung local council and the Northern Free State district municipality will be piloted for the performance management system in the Free State during 2001-02. [Interjections.] The Department of Provincial and Local Government will be providing capacity for these municipalities for training and for finalising the process of the performance management system.

The division of powers and functions between local and district municipalities in the Free State is on track. We do not have a major problem, nor a teething problem. It is going very well. We are very careful to ensure, on a permanent basis, that when those problems arise, we will be able to give guidance to the powers and functions so that they do not create problems.

The all-inclusive consultative process undertaken by the Municipal Demarcation Board has ensured that all role-players and stakeholders are on board with this process. As soon as the Municipal Demarcation Board has submitted its recommendation to the provincial MEC responsible for local government, a proclamation will be issued in this regard. This is expected to take place by the end of this year. The division of powers and functions is strongly linked to the capacity of the municipality to perform specific functions. In our view, municipalities therefore have to be capacitated to assume these major responsibilities of powers and functions prescribed by the law.

The Free State wants to draw the attention of the Minister to the fact that specific attention needs to be given to the district municipality of Xhariep. At present, the Xhariep district municipality is nowhere. We have taken a district municipality where there was no life. Xhariep was not there, because these very same people do not have even an office in which to operate. It is only dust there, which was not created by the system that we are trying to put into place. But that dust, poverty and unemployment were created by the system that today we are busy designing for our people to be able to get their dignity.

I would like to tell the Minister that it sometimes takes local councillors in the Xhariep district 15 days after the month end before they receive allowances, which many other people call for even before the end of the month.

Key amongst governance issues is the relationship between the municipality, the residents and the organs of civil society, which we are also taking care of. Both the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act and the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act require municipalities to facilitate the participation of local organisations in the affairs of municipalities.

Municipalities should also establish other mechanisms that will enable communities to participate in the affairs of their society.

The newly established municipalities should be urged to get connected, so that, at least, information technology will link people with the outside world.

They should develop the idea of e-government, which will enable them to get information around capacity-building and on how other local authorities are able to run on their own. They must be able to draw something constructive from that kind of information. Therefore information technology is a key for other municipalities to be able to emulate that kind of work.

Lastly, the local government transformation programme should evaluate this project with a view to providing much-needed assistance for municipalities in the Free State. In the Free State we push for excellence, even against the odds. [Applause.]

Mr R M NYAKANE: Chairperson, the nature of municipal boundary delineation focused on the fulfilment of constitutional obligations such as the provision of essential services in an equitable and sustainable manner. However, the majority of the communities in the Northern Province have not yet realised this service. The contacts made with some of the communities like Lenyenye, Nkowankowa, Makhado, and Dwarsloop reveal that households receive water supplies on an intermittent basis.

It was alleged that the water supply rates are inconsistent, and are more reasonable in big towns like Pietersburg than in rural towns like Tzaneen. Municipalities lag behind with regard to the roles they are supposed to play in the land reform programme. This could be due to the financial constraints that most of the municipalities experience.

Our study visits to the provinces, especially in KwaZulu-Natal recently, discovered that after the successful acquisition of land by the claimants, the challenge for the provision of the infrastructure arises. Since these pieces of land eventually form an integral part of the municipal area of jurisdiction, municipalities should be equally responsible for the channelling of some of these resources towards infrastructure provision.

I would like to touch on another sensitive issue here, and that is the politicisation of the delivery process by some of our municipal councillors. Utterances such as, I quote, `` No services should be brought to your area because you did not vote for x political party,’’ are a problem. We should bear in mind that while two elephants are engaged in a heavy fight, it is the grass that suffers.

May I make a brief comment on the issue of traditional institutions? These institutions have been with the blacks since time immemorial. The majority of the black population in South Africa are still under the authority of these institutions. They are part of our black culture.

The colonial government found these institutions, here in Africa, and traditional leaders were exploited and manipulated in the interests of the colonial governments. Humiliating titles such as headman'',subchief’’ and ``kaptein’’ were coined to serve their interests.

The present Government is, perhaps, their last hope to get their legitimate status, dignity and integrity restored, particularly given the fact that the majority of those who govern today originated from these institutions. One homeland leader once said: ``If Mangope could do it, why can’t I do it?’‘[Laughter.] This is basically the concern of traditional leaders. Consider Chief Madlala’s case. He managed to bring the bulk water scheme to more than 15 000 households in Mzube on the south coast of KwaZulu-Natal. Chief Madlala uttered the following, and I quote him from Business Day of 4 June 2001:

If elected councillors can be allowed to take total control of it, then it is only them who will get recognition. People will ask at the end of five years what councillors have done, and they will point out: What about amakhosi? Nothing. How would you justify the existence of your chieftaincy when you are doing nothing? I am leaving the Minister with this innocent question. Are there specific reasons for not recognising traditional institutions as an integral part of the executive and legislative authority of a municipality? [Applause.]

Mr P D N MALOYI: Chairperson, Minister, Deputy Minister, MECs, special delegates and colleagues, I had thought that the hon Lever and his ``Dom Alliance’’ would join us in this Budget Vote with their hands, like ours, facing upwards, without any hidden agenda on how to accelerate the mammoth task of solidifying the foundation of a democratic order. I, together with my party, which is the ANC, had hoped that what dominated our debate would be issues of fundamental political importance guided by a clear understanding of our commitment to the total transformation of the local government structures.

Mr Lever must realise that if we acted in this manner, we would be empowered to remain focused on the immediate challenges that were ushered in by our hard-fought democracy, and this debate would then be conducted in an atmosphere of honesty, frankness and openness.

The democratic local government elections on 5 December 2000 unleashed a barrage of challenges that would have to be overcome so as to allow us to continue to be active participants in the process of creating strong local government structures.

I was disappointed by Mr Lever, who is also from my province, because today he, like his colleagues in the DA, decided again to parade his face, which is not so beautiful, in front of us, knowing perfectly well that what he was saying was tantamount to trying to mix water with oil.

For decades the majority was condemned to abject poverty, fear, insecurity … [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

Mr N M RAJU: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary for a member to refer to another member’s looks? [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I will look into whether it is parliamentary or not, Mr Raju.

Mr N M RAJU: I strongly object to that kind of reference. The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Continue, Mr Maloyi.

Mr P D N MALOYI: Chairperson, I am standing before you, because I believe that it is my duty, amongst others, to assist people like Mr Lever and Mr Raju who are suffering from a serious disease called verbal diarrhoea.

For decades, the majority was condemned to abject poverty, fear and insecurity, and without any say in determining the future of our communities. Many of our people in the apartheid era were forcibly relocated to the far edges of the urban communities and to the remote rural areas. It is in these areas that poverty affects the people the most. This is especially true in the rural areas, where the majority of our population are women, but also in small towns and secondary cities.

We have been given a rare and historic opportunity to transform local government to meet the challenges of this century. We have embarked on a policy process that will give effect to a new vision of local government. Ever since the first local government elections transitional local government structures, particularly in nonmetropolitan areas, have had to face not only the challenges of poverty, but also a range of problems associated with apartheid local government.

They inherited highly unrepresentative and administratively fragmented structures. This has made restructuring and transformation very difficult. These difficulties were generated by obstacles such as limited funding and a vision which was not so clear and was, obviously, pushed by the DA and its allies.

Resources and capacity were generally not directed to areas of great need, and there was not always effective local representation. Many councillors felt disempowered and alienated.

Dikalajane tse di a tla fa gompieno di tla go re bolelela gore di itse sengwenyana ka puso semorafe, ga di itse sepe. [These crooks come here today to tell us that they know something about local government, they know nothing.]

Approximately 80% of municipalities nationally, have completed their interim IDPs as part of facilitating the post-December local government elections, amalgamation and restructuring process. Integrated development planning forms the basis for a range of key national priority programmes like the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy and the Urban Renewal Strategy.

Our new local government system is very different from the one we were subjected to under apartheid, of which the DP was part. Municipalities are now responsible for providing democratic and accountable government for local communities.

The White Paper on Local Government and the legislation that has come from it provide us with the tools to make this new system a reality. The Local Government: Municipal Structures Act and the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act give us guidance on how to set up structures and processes to ensure that public participation occurs at a local level, and that our officials and councillors, and also traditional leaders, I would add for Mr Nyakane’s benefit, are held accountable for their actions.

This level of local government is one which we cannot afford to abandon. Hope was a rare commodity during the apartheid period, but under this new era of democracy, it is no more an illusion. We should never despair, because one day we will achieve what we want - a better life for all our people.

Obviously old mistakes are never repeated. Why should we repeat an old mistake in a new situation? I think that we all agree when I say that the old, under the NP government, and the new Government, led by President Thabo Mbeki, are as distinct as water and stone. We have a vision that is pleasant. It is reflective of our unfortunate past, but is also of great importance. It illustrates what the future would look like. [Applause.]

Mr G E NKWINTI (Eastern Cape): Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, may I join my colleagues before me in welcoming the Deputy Minister and wishing her good luck.

Colleagues and hon members of the House, I would like to just highlight a few points in support of the Minister’s budget speech, with reference to experiences in our province.

A major change in mind-set is essential for the three major role-players which constitute municipalities. They have to work as a team so as to ensure the development and upliftment of all people in their jurisdictions. These are communities’ elected councillors and municipal officials.

There are related challenges in the following: the creation of a conducive environment by councillors to effect full community participation in all service delivery activities; the realisation and acknowledgement by, especially, councillors that they form part of an institution vested with political power to effect major changes from the legacy of the past; the realisation by communities that they shoulder as much responsibility for the success or failure of their municipality now as their elected representatives; councillor accountability to the communities; and linking developmental local government to developmental financial planning and management.

In pursuit of local government transformation, the department has the following elements and programmes, amongst others: the division of powers and functions, integrated development planning and plans, capacity-building and training, and institutional capacity-building.

With regard to the division of powers and functions, we have worked closely with the Municipal Demarcation Board and we have held extensive workshops with municipalities and reached agreement on a framework to determine the authorisation of powers and functions for local and district municipalities. The board has made recommendations and we have evaluated and concurred with all of them.

We have put together a draft authorisation in terms of section 18 of the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, and we are ready for formal consultations with Salga in the Eastern Cape, the Municipal Demarcation Board, and the Minister for Provincial and Local Government.

The department in our province, the Municipal Demarcation Board and the Department of Provincial and Local Government will have to agree on a scientific technique to determine capacity in local and district municipalities. This is important because we are of the view that we need to develop plans for capacity-building to ensure the ability on the part of these municipalities to carry out the powers and functions allocated to them by law.

With regard to integrated development planning, the status quo is that municipalities have completed their interim IDPs. The aim is to link development programmes, including establishment plans, to the Budget for the 2001-02 financial year. With regard to phase 2 of the IDP process, with the assistance and support of the Department of Provincial and Local Government, we are taking steps to ready our municipalities for the next phase of the IDP process, including local economic development.

With regard to capacity-building and training programmes, there is great unevenness in capacity across our municipalities, with varied needs for intervention on our part. For example, the municipality that was not mentioned directly by the hon Mr Bhabha, Mnquma, which is partly under Butterworth, really requires what we referred to as a very high level of intervention. We have 10 municipalities that need high-level intervention, eight municipalities which need medium-level intervention, five municipalities needing low-level to medium-level intervention and five municipalities that need low-level intervention. Of course, we have eight municipalities that, at least in the short term, can do without any intervention.

There are four district municipalities which need medium-level to high- level intervention, especially in the following areas: the institutional framework; strategic leadership; IT and financial management; and the eradication of backlogs in preparation for the introduction of GAMAP at the beginning of the 2002-03 municipal financial year.

To assist in strengthening the capacity of the municipalities, we have reached, as a department, an agreement with Salga, Eastern Cape, because it has the capacity to train and we the finances to fund such training. This is one way of assisting Salga, Eastern Cape, on our part. Salga has submitted a business plan and we are working out financial transfers and monitoring mechanisms together.

With regard to institution-building, the department is engaging district municipalities to develop a demand-driven programme, to be implemented within this current financial year, and the department has made provision for this in terms of funding.

With regard to traditional leaders’ participation, we have, in terms of legislation, invited the provincial house of traditional leaders to submit names of traditional leaders to serve on municipal councils, where this is provided for in law. The house has failed even to acknowledge receipt of such an invitation. It did, however, discuss it and decided not to do anything about it. I have now invited heads of all 10 regional authorities in the province to submit these names, and some have already phoned back to say that they are busy identifying these.

We are looking forward to these patriots participating in the processes of improving the quality of life of their subjects, in partnership with the Government. [Applause.]

Mr P UYS (Western Cape): Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, I am grateful for the opportunity to address this House this afternoon. Our congratulations to Deputy Minister Botha on her appointment. We really look forward to working with her and, of course, the Minister for Provincial and Local Government.

Ek wil graag kortliks verwys na die omvormingsproses in die Wes-Kaap, en ook na die visie wat ons het vir plaaslike regering. Dit is om volhoubare gehaltediens aan die gemeenskap te lewer, en ook om die lewensgehalte van al die inwoners van hierdie gebied te bevorder. Dit moet natuurlik plaasvind met die samewerking van en in vennootskap met die provinsie en nasionale Regering.

Ons omvorming was ook nie maklik nie, en ek dink dit is die eerste proses in die hele pad van omvorming, en die eerste hekkie waaroor ons gekom het. Ons is daaroor en dienslewering het vlot verloop, maar ek dink daar lê nog ‘n lang pad vorentoe. Ons het een metropolitaanse raad, vyf distriksmunisipaliteite en 24 plaaslike munisipaliteite. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[I would like to briefly refer to the transformation process in the Western Cape, and also to the vision we have for local government. This is to deliver sustainable quality service to the community, and also to improve the quality of life of all the inhabitants of this area. This should, of course, take place with the co-operation of, and in partnership with, the province and the national Government.

Our transformation has also not been easy, and I think that this is the first process on the road to transformation, and the first hurdle we have overcome. We have overcome this and service delivery has gone smoothly, but I think there is still a long road ahead of us. We have one metropolitan council, five district municipalities and 24 local municipalities.]

If I can refer to the support that we give to local government, the first important issue through our provincial notices is notices 12, 16 and 18, and we tried to write them as comprehensively as possible, to help and guide municipalities in that regard. We have also established a provincial advisory forum within the Western Cape, where we get councillors, officials and organised local government to help us take the process of transformation forward.

Ons het ook sekere aspekte aan hulle oorgedra en werkswinkels gehou met betrekking tot geïntegreerde ontwikkelingsbeplanning, en ek dink dit het baie suksesvol verloop. [We also communicated certain aspects to them and ran workshops with regard to integrated development planning, and I think that was very successful.]

We have interim IDPs for all of our municipalities at this moment, and we are preparing for the full IDP in the next phase of the budget for local government. Daar is ook verskeie werkswinkels gehou, en in besonder met betrekking tot prestasiebestuur en GOP, wat ek wel genoem het. [Various workshops were also held, and in particular with regard to performance management and IDP, which I have, in fact, mentioned.]

At this moment, yes, capacity is needed at some of the local authorities, but we also get the impression that some of the local authorities think one likes to evolve the capacity of provincial government. But I think we do it in partnership, and we do it very well.

I want to emphasise some of the challenges that are generic in the Western Cape insofar as local and provincial governments and, I believe, our partner, the national Government, are concerned. These include the division of powers and functions, and the allocation of staff, assets and liabilities. We are now in a phase where these must be transferred by 1 July this year, and we are very busy at local government preparing all the schedules for staff, assets and liabilities. I must say that there are still one or two differences in the interpretation of the split of powers, duties and functions. One will always get these differences when it comes to local government, particularly between the B and C municipalities. However, we try and give strong guidance in that regard. I must say this is not divided along political lines … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Could you take your seat, member? What is your problem?

Mr T B TAABE: Mr Chairperson, will the hon member take a question?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Hon member, are you prepared to take a question?

Mr P UYS: Sorry, Chairperson!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Thank you, proceed.

Mr P UYS: It is a big challenge, not only between political parties, or even within political parties, this split between B and C municipalities and the functions thereof.

The second point that I want to raise is the financial challenges that we face, such as getting valuations for all municipalities.

The question that we pose at provincial and national Government is: Do we follow the provincial ordinance or the proposed national legislation and move forward with the valuation of property? I think it is very important and critical that we now get national legislation in place. Hopefully, that will happen later this year. However, we do not need to kick-start it with the municipal ordinance and then later on change to national legislation.

Another important issue is uncertainty from the category A municipality, the metropolitan, and the C municipality concerning what is going to happen to the REC levies. Will they disappear, will they remain with our category C municipalities, and will they have financial support in future? Transformation costs, we must say, will be very high. But, at the same time we want to express our appreciation for the transformation funding that is available at this moment in time, both from provincial government and, specifically, from the national Government.

The split of the powers and functions between the category B and C municipalities is going to have major implications. We have been asked when we will move forward with the four big services, namely water, electricity and health and, in our case, sanitation and fire as well. I believe that we will have to wait until at least the next financial year to plan this in a proper way to keep our local authorities financially viable.

Credit control is still a very important issue, but at the same time we have to take into consideration delivering services to the poor people and introducing free water - the six kilolitres and the 20kw of electricity in the Western Cape.

I would like to congratulate our municipalities who really took up this commitment and implemented what is necessary here. [Interjections.] That is not true. On the whole staff issue, I must say, we supported local government in building capacity in that regard to help them draft advertisements. We did not dictate to them but we supported their contracts of employment and remuneration package proposals to staff. That has been submitted to our different local authorities. But still a very key outstanding issue is the collective agreement on the placement and appointment criteria for staff. I believe that this is now part of the national bargaining process in the hands of Salga. We urge them, in this regard, to really speed up the process.

Ek wil ook kom by die punt van raadslede en die gedrag van raadslede. Dit is belangrik dat ons die dissipline reg van die begin af sal toepas, en wanneer daar oortredings is van die gedragskode, ongeag die politieke party of die raad, sal die provinsie ook die nodige stappe moet doen. Dit is trouens ook reeds gedoen. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[I also want to turn to the point of councillors and their behaviour. It is important that we apply discipline from the very beginning, and when there are transgressions of the code of conduct, irrespective of the political party or the council, the province will also have to take the necessary steps. In fact, this has already been done.]

On the salaries and allowances of councillors, I want to thank them very much for the commitment to a process that leads to putting in place an increase of salaries and allowances.

Ek weet nie of ek kan saamstem nie en ek weet nie of dit korrek is wat my kollega die agb lid Africa gesê het nie, naamlik dat dit die nasionale Regering is wat dit gaan betaal. Die belangrike punt wat hier na vore kom, is dat dit ‘n aangeleentheid is wat dringend gehanteer moet word. Ons verloor raadslede wat uitstekende werk regdeur die politieke spektrum heen kan doen, en ons kan dit nie meer in hierdie stadium bekostig dat dit met raadslede gebeur nie.

Raadslede doen baie harde werk en in die meeste van die gevalle moet raadslede ook nog parlementslede se werk doen, want dit is die raadslede wat die naaste aan die gemeenskap op die grond is, en ons moet ons hoed afhaal vir die uitstekende werk wat daar gedoen word.

Daar is ‘n paar uitstaande stukke wetgewing ten opsigte waarvan ons wil vra dat daar die nodige spoed aan verleen sal word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[I do not know whether I can agree, and I do not know whether what my colleague the hon member Africa said is correct, namely that it is the national Government that will have to pay. The important point that comes to the fore is that this is a matter that must be dealt with urgently. We are losing councillors who can do exceptional work across the entire political spectrum and, at this stage, we can no longer afford to have this happen to councillors.

Councillors work very hard and, in most cases, councillors must do the work of members of Parliament as well, because it is the councillors that are the closest to the community at grass-roots level, and we must take our hat off to them for the exceptional work that is being done there.

There are a few outstanding pieces of legislation in respect of which we would like to ask that they be dealt with with the necessary speed.]

Regarding outstanding legislation, I have mentioned already the property evaluation legislation. Regarding the Municipal Finance Management Bill, I think that section 10(g) is outdated at this moment in time, and we cannot continue for another year or two with that. I also want to refer to the disaster management legislation.

Ons wil sê die Wes-Kaap is reg. [We would like to say that the Western Cape is ready.]

We are really willing to help our municipalities and communities to improve the quality of life of everybody.

I want to acknowledge the role of Salga, specifically in Wecloga in the Western Cape and the IDT. We work closely with them, specifically in nodal point 13 in the central Karoo on the integrated rural development strategy. I would also like to thank the Municipal Demarcation Board, IEC, and specifically the Minister and, from today, the Deputy Minister and the department. [Applause.]

Ms L JACOBUS: Chairperson, may I just place on record apologies from our MEC Fowler. He is unfortunately tied up with some other pressing matters in the province and he asked me to deliver this input on his behalf.

Hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, MECs, special delegates and hon members, may I also add our voice from Gauteng in congratulating the Deputy Minister on her appointment and promise that Gauteng will do its best to co-operate with her and the Minister and work together.

The transformation of local government poses a challenge to municipalities and the Gauteng province alike. The bigger challenge relates to striking the balance between managing transition and ensuring that there is uninterrupted service delivery. In other municipalities, more than 11 entities came together to form a municipality. As such, the challenge is to integrate all these entities into one functional entity.

The national department has developed a template for monitoring the establishment process. The province uses the same template to assess progress by the municipalities in relation to strategic management issues, financial management, administrative infrastructure and institutional matters.

The province appointed transformation managers based at the district municipalities and metropolitan municipalities. The work of the transformation managers, the TMs, is to guide the transformation process and report to the department of development planning and local government on any possible problems encountered by municipalities.

Transformation managers develop establishment plans for the municipalities and ensure that there is integration of these plans at the district level. They serve as change agents at municipality level.

After the demarcation process, some of the assets and liabilities of municipalities had to be divided amongst, and between, municipalities. In order to deal effectively with the division of assets and liabilities between relevant municipalities, and after an apparent reluctance by some of the municipalities to co-operate on these matters, the department established two committees to guide this process. The above-mentioned committees consist of an equal number of councillors of the municipality concerned and technical subcommittees which consist of municipal officials of the relevant municipalities.

As far as the current state of municipalities is concerned, a situational analysis of the state of our municipalities has been done. It has been illuminating to the extent that it has mapped a path for the future. The following strengths and opportunities for transformation into viable sustainable municipalities have been identified.

Local municipalities have been through changes before. There is support from provincial government. There are new governance structures and change is inevitable. A conducive legislative environment and dedicated funds are available. There is a national and international climate for public administration improvement.

However, there are several weaknesses and threats for this period that have been identified. These are: interim IDPs and planning that are not sufficiently driven by strategic priorities or sufficiently linked to the budget; insufficient human resource management strategies, in particular change management; stakeholder participation that may result in the loss of experienced personnel; management not being sufficiently results-driven; inadequate skills; poor standardisation of policies; insufficient customer focus; threats to financial viability from issues such as ineffective billing systems; and an inadequate ability to generate revenue and change in disaster management systems.

A situation analysis has given an in-depth view of the financial health and trends relating to the financial health of selected municipalities. For example, these developments have shown trends of selected municipalities relating to solvency, debt and income. These trends have pointed to the inadequacy of amalgamation of budgets, the treasury abilities, the inadequacy of financial systems, the inadequacy of debt collection, management and revenue generation, and financial controls.

The analysis has revealed weaknesses in the aforementioned issues. This approach has been repeated for municipal service delivery systems and capacity, human resources and information technology.

Regarding the Municipal Institutional Support Centre, or MISC, in order to meet the transformation challenges faced by local government, the province saw the need for high-level institutional, financial and service delivery support to municipalities.

The department of development planning and local government is establishing the MISC as a vehicle to support municipalities. This will involve investigating and reviewing the current nature and form of municipal organisational structures and systems, service delivery issues, finances and other developmental aspects.

To this end, the MISC project completed a status quo analysis report after working with the MDBs. The report indicates the need for the support centre to assist in tackling some of the major challenges in this transformation, namely resistance to change, low staff morale, poor financial management, incoherent human resource and administration policies, poor service delivery and so on. The municipal support programmes flow from project viability.

During past years the municipal support programme focused only on the financial aspects of the municipality as a tool for rehabilitating those who had financial problems. The department has now focused the MSP to be responsive to the transformation challenges of the municipalities. These include institutional finance service delivery, IDPs and communication matters.

To maximise the intervention efforts, the department has developed a plan to interlink the MICs and MSPs with other funding sources, like the transition fund and the restructuring grant.

With regard to monitoring the establishment of municipalities, all the municipalities held their first inaugural meetings within the specified period of 14 days and elected office bearers. Most of the municipalities developed and adopted single interim delegations and standing orders. All municipalities have established interim management plans. The transfer of staff, according to the new demarcation and functions, remains a challenge owing to the fact that municipalities are still waiting for a national process on powers and functions to be finalised.

Regarding strategic management issues, most of the municipalities have almost completed the development of their interim integrated developmental plans. There is something of a problem in the cross-boundary municipalities, owing to the incompatibility of plans and legislation used by affected provinces, for example transport plans, land use, management, etc. This matter is, however, receiving attention and the problem does not seem insurmountable.

In terms of financial issues, some of the municipalities, for example Merafong, would possibly have difficulty in sustaining the payment of councillors. Most of the municipalities have established interim financial management control systems, policies, procedures and interim delegations. By the end of January, all the municipalities had already compiled a revised 2000-01 budget for council approval. Following the approval of the interim integrated development plans, most of the municipalities will be able to start preparing for the new budget of 2001-02.

The department of development planning and local government has development plans to assist municipalities to utilise their transitional funds and restructuring grants to finalise their interim integrated development plans and their medium-term strategic plans. The municipal support programmes and the municipal institutional support centre will be used to assist municipalities to draft their 2001-02 budgets; to develop organisational structures, human resources and administration policies; and to support the municipal performance management system.

With reference to cross-boundary municipalities, the department of development planning and local government has initiated three cross- boundary technical fora with the affected provinces and municipalities. Emerging from these is the need to finalise a strategy for the management of CBM matters. The province is busy developing a memorandum of understanding which will guide management of CBM arrangements.

One of the flagships in local government transformation is the participatory system. This is about empowering communities to be in the driving seat of social transformation. The new system of local government allows communities to be consulted during the drafting of the integrated development plans, the budget and delivery systems.

No municipality should ever have plans or budgets without input from communities. This participatory system allows for the establishment of ward committees as another means of involving citizens in governing themselves.

We are going to provide a free basic amount of water and a free basic amount of electricity. One big challenge ahead of us is the lack of or little infrastructure in areas such as informal settlements and rural areas. The affected municipalities need support to provide infrastructure, or they will not be able to provide the free water and electricity to many households. Government has already taken steps by introducing the consolidated municipal infrastructure programme to assist municipalities in providing storm-water drainage, bulk and link water supplies, streetlights, sanitation and other amenities.

Based on the above principles, the situation analysis and the task to be achieved, three phases for the transformation have been developed. The first phase is the establishment phase from 5 December 2000 to 30 June 2001, based on the budgets of the disestablished municipalities. The second phase is the consolidation phase from 30 June 2001 to 30 June 2002, based on new budgets. The third phase is the stabilisation phase from 30 June 2002, which will vary from municipality to municipality and will be based on the size and institutional challenges.

In conclusion, the people have spoken through their votes for the improvement of their living conditions. They voted for men, women and political parties of their choice and have placed trust in them. To be agents of change, communities must now invest their collective energies in making this social transformation a reality. [Applause.]

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Chairperson, can I join my colleagues by congratulating the Deputy Minister. Malibongwe! [Praise!] [Interjections.] One must know, as I speak here, that I speak from the island of the Western Cape, where a child competes with a parent. [Interjections.] Although local government transformation is necessary in all our provinces, the need for it is felt most acutely in the Western Cape. Why? Because, as Mrs Versfeld knows, the parties responsible for apartheid and all its terrible consequences are still governing this province. [Interjections.] While other provinces have made significant progress in improving the quality of life of their people, here, in the Western Cape, our people in areas such as Khayelitsha and Manenberg have still not tasted the sweet fruits of freedom and democracy. [Interjections.]

Instead of improving, our areas are deteriorating. We are still faced with unemployment, poverty, overcrowding in houses, a lack of basic services such as adequate sanitation and clean drinking water, farmworkers being assaulted and working for R40 a week, the exploitation of child labour on farms, and a host of other problems that were experienced during the dark years of apartheid.

The rights we fought for have not filtered down to the majority of people in this province. In fact, the people who sold their souls for the crumbs from the tables of their apartheid masters, such as Marais and others, are still the ones who are benefiting in the Western Cape. [Interjections.] They are the ones who drive in posh cars and live in expensive houses in formerly white areas, while those who struggled for freedom and democracy are languishing in conditions of utter squalor in the African and coloured townships. [Interjections.]

They are the ones who, like parasites, thrive on the fears of the coloured working class during the elections, yet forget about their conditions of living when tabling their provincial budgets. [Interjections.] If one gives Mrs Versfeld a rod she will go to the sea now.

Unlike the Western Cape government, which only cares for the wellbeing of the rich, the ANC is proud to be seen as the champion of the interests of the poor. [Interjections.] All our policies and programmes are targeted at improving the wellbeing of the poor at local government level.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Hon members, order! You are drowning out the speaker. We cannot hear what the speaker is trying to say. Yes, why are you rising, hon member?

Mr T B TAABE: Chairperson, I am rising on a point of order to check with you if it is parliamentary for the hon member, who cannot think beyond issues of fishing, to be disturbing the hon member when she is addressing the House. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP [Mr M L Mushwana]: Thank you. Take your seat, hon member. That is not a point of order. [Laughter.]

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Chairperson, as the ANC we have taken the lead in providing immediate free basic services, such as water, to the people living in the areas of Beaufort West and Plettenberg Bay, while municipalities led by the ``Doomed Alliance’’ in areas such as Hermanus have conspired to auction off RDP houses, because of the nonpayment for services caused by unemployment.

The Western Cape provincial government does not believe in public participation. [Interjections.] The contempt with which the ``Dom Alliance’’ regards public participation in the provinces, is starkly illustrated by the preference for subcouncils instead of ward committees. [Interjections.]

Ward committees, which are favoured by the ANC, would have encouraged community participation by drawing in different sectors of a local community to sit on the ward committee. A particular ward may have a strong sports sector or informal trading community. These sectors could have been asked to name persons who would then represent them on the ward committee. In this way community participation would have been widened. But no, the ``Dom Alliance’’ do not want this. They are afraid of democracy because they know that by increasing public participation in ward committees, they will be forced to be accountable through these structures. [Interjections.]

They know that without community participation, they can make decisions without having to account for them, as is the case with their recent decision to increase rates in the unicity by 7% across the board, regardless of its implications for the poorer communities in the province. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

This also has to do with their decision to replace informal parking attendants with a few marshals.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Hon members, I will allow this member to speak for the next 30 minutes unless you keep quiet. [Interjections.] Please continue, hon member.

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Thank you, Chairperson.

The decision by the unicity to replace informal parking attendants with a few marshals, regardless of the impact that this will have on the lives of informal parking attendants and their families, has to be looked at. Does one take away that piece of bread, does one encourage people to go back to crime?

The ``Debt Alliance’’ will go to extreme lengths to identify loopholes in the new local government system which they can exploit to perpetuate the inequalities existing in our province. [Interjections.]

We should close those loopholes. Firstly, one could start by making regulations governing the composition of ward committees. They control municipalities to exclude significant sectors from sitting on the ward committees.

Secondly, we should put a system in place to ensure that district councils perform the tasks for which they were elected. Many of our people fall under a district council where there is a big town with all the facilities and amenities. This town makes most of its money from the people in the communities around it, yet it does not plough anything back into those communities. [Interjections.]

In terms of the new local government system, district councils have the responsibility to ensure an equitable distribution of resources. Given the uncaring attitude of municipalities controlled by the ``Dom Alliance’’, the danger exists that these district councils will continue to ignore the poor communities around them. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Hon member, please take your seat. Yes, hon member Raju. Order! Hon members, please stop that noise.

Mr N M RAJU: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary to refer to somebody else as ``dom’’? [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Hon member, who is that person? Order! Order!

Mr N M RAJU: Chairperson, the speaker referred to the party or DA as the Dom Alliance''. Is it parliamentary to refer to the alliance asdom’’?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Hon member, please take your seat. There is no party called the DA in the House. Hon member, please continue.

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: As the ANC we will ensure that the new system of local government brings definite benefits to our people. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

I want to conclude by saying that … [Interjections.] I never knew that Mr Raju’s other surname was ``dom’’. Thank you for informing me. [Interjections.] [Laughter.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Mrs Versfeld and Ms Ntwanambi. I would not like to order you out of the Chamber.

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, let me take this opportunity to thank all those who participated in this debate.

Many of the participants in the debate made proposals for consideration by the Department and Ministry. I want to assure them that we have taken those proposals to heart and they will be given due consideration.

Some speakers called for a national framework regarding the issue of ward councils. May I again take the opportunity to remind especially my colleagues the hon MECs that all provinces were provided with a draft document in this regard. We are keenly awaiting their comments so that at the next Minmec meeting we may table a refined draft for adoption. The hon Mr Nyakane posed a question and, before posing the question, he assured us that he was asking an innocent question. The innocent question was, I quote: ``Are there specific reasons for not recognising traditional leaders?’’

Frankly this is an innocence I would not be party in extolling: the innocence of a lawmaker who does not know that the Constitution he adopted recognises traditional leaders. [Laughter.]

I note with satisfaction the remarks made by MEC Nkwinti who informed this House about a growing number of traditional leaders in the Eastern Cape who are ready to join elected councillors and become partners in the service of our people. I think this growing number of traditional leaders is not confined to the Eastern Cape alone; we see it in other provinces too. It is a heartening development about which we as South Africans must be proud.

The hon Mr Bhabha opened his input by expressing disappointment. He is disappointed in Mr Lever’s failure to meet his expectation of what he calls a ``viable alternative’’. What surprises me about Mr Bhabha is that he had such an expectation in the first instance. [Laughter.] To my knowledge the DP is not a new party. Under its various names it is not known for putting forward viable alternatives for anything.

Mr Lever told us that the previous system, that is before the transformation of local governments, was capable of delivering to all communities. I informed the House about sections of South African communities, 93,5% of whom are in need of access to one basic service or another. Certainly these are communities that do not exist in his conscience.

All communities were catered for by the old dispensation. He decries problems created by what he calls ``defaulting ratepayers’’. We are just as worried as he is about this problem, but certainly he cannot be forgiven for the exposition of the position which is bereft of causal analysis.

He goes on to say that, and I quote,``transformation of local government on its own will not solve the problem.’’ It is not clear who it is that he is responding to in this regard. Perhaps what he is expressing is an overbearing fear on his part for change. He is trying very hard to convince himself that change has not happened. I want to tell him that change has happened and he had better come to terms with it. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Thank you, hon members, that concludes the discussion. We take the opportunity to thank the hon the Minister for engaging this House in this lively debate.

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 17:10. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                         FRIDAY, 1 JUNE 2001

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Council of Provinces:

The Chairperson:

1. The following members have been appointed to serve on the Ad Hoc Select Committee on Powers and Privileges of Parliament, viz:

 Ackermann, C; Bhabha, M; Bhengu, M J; Dlulane, B N; Durr, K D S; Lever,
 L G; Lucas, G A; Makoela, M I; Moosa, M V; Mushwana, M L; Ntlabati, S
 N; Nyakane, R M; Pandor, G N M; Surty, M E; Tlhagale, J O.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of
     Vote 8 - Correctional Services for 1999-2000 including a
     Performance Audit for Training [RP 117-2000].


     Referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for
     consideration and report and to the Portfolio Committee on
     Correctional Services for information.


 (2)    Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of
     Vote 7 - Constitutional Development (now Provincial and Local
     Government) for 1999-2000 [RP 116-2000].


     Referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for
     consideration and report and to the Portfolio Committee on
     Provincial and Local Government for information.

                         MONDAY, 4 JUNE 2001

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 4 -
 Agriculture for 1999-2000 [RP 113 - 2000].

                        TUESDAY, 5 JUNE 2001

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:


 Bill passed by National Assembly on 5 June 2001 and transmitted for
 concurrence:


    Eskom Conversion Bill [B 16B - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75)


     The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Labour and
     Public Enterprises of the National Council of Provinces. 2.    The Chairperson:


 The following papers were tabled and are now referred to the relevant
 committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
     Economic Affairs:


     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote
     No 13 - Foreign Affairs for 1999-2000 [RP 122-2000].


 (2)    The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
     Labour and Public Enterprises:


     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote
     No 6 - Communications for 1999-2000 [RP 115-2000].


 (3)    The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
     Security and Constitutional Affairs:


     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote
     No 8 - Correctional Services for 1999-2000 including a Performance
     Audit for Training [RP 117-2000].


 (4)    The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Local
     Government and Administration:


     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote
     No 7 - Constitutional Development (now Provincial and Local
     Government) for 1999-2000 [RP 116-2000].


 (5)    The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Land
     and Environmental Affairs:


     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote
     No 4 - Agriculture for 1999-2000 [RP 113-2000].

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote No 23
 - Minerals and Energy for 1999-2000 [RP 132-2000].