FRIDAY, 12 MAY 2000 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 09:02.

The Deputy Chairperson of Committees took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Ms B P SONJICA: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry became involved in
       the Dukuduku matter in 1998, given the difficulties facing the
       provincial conservation authorities;


   (b)  the national Government has acquired land for community
       resettlement;


   (c)  the community and traditional authorities have agreed that the
       community will move out of the forest to two adjoining
       commercial farms immediately after these have been transferred
       to a community trust for which a trust deed and business plan
       have been prepared; and


   (d)  security issues are being addressed at Cabinet level; and

(2) urges the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry and the community of Dukuduku to continue to work towards a sustainable solution.

[Applause.]

Brig-genl P J SCHALKWYK: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die DP sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) sy meegevoel betuig teenoor die Minister van Verdediging, sy departement en die naasbestaandes van die twee dienende generaals wat onlangs oorlede is;

(2) erken dat die heengaan van Lt-genl Masuku, die Geneesheer-generaal, en Lt-genl Coetzer, die Hoof van Logistiek van die SANW, ‘n groot vakuum in die bevelstruktuur gelaat het wat nie maklik gevul kan word nie … (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Brig Gen P J SCHALKWYK: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) expresses its condolences to the Minister of Defence, his department and the next of kin of the two serving generals who passed away recently;

(2) concedes that the loss of Lt Gen Masuku, the Surgeon-General, and Lt Gen Coetzer, the Chief of Logistics of the SANDF, has left a large vacuum in the SANDF command structure, which cannot be easily filled …]

I would just like mention that the Surgeon-General, Lt Gen Masuku, and I were both hospitalised at the same hospital and in the same ward. He was in Room 1 and I was in Room 2, and I visited him quite frequently.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Is that a speech or part of the motion, sir? [Laughter.]

Brig Gen P J SCHALKWYK: It was a bit of a speech, Chairperson.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Please continue with the motion.

Brig-genl P J SCHALKWYK: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek stel verder voor: Dat die Huis -

(3) ‘n ernstige en dringende beroep doen op die Minister en die President om behoorlik gekwalifiseerde en aanvaarbare offisiere met ‘n generaalsrang aan te stel om hulle te vervang. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Brig Gen P J SCHALKWYK: Mr Chairperson, I further move:

That the House -

(3) makes a serious and urgent appeal to the Minister and the President to appoint properly qualified and acceptable officers with the rank of general to replace them.]

Prof S M MAYATULA: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes - (a) the continued allegations of racism in former whites-only schools; and

   (b)  that a second incident of racism at the Kushcke Agricultural
       High School is being investigated by the Northern Province
       education department;

(2) recognises that laws and programmes have been adopted by the national Government to eradicate racism in our schools; and

(3) calls on the provincial education department to expedite the investigation, as such behaviour does not assist in restoring conditions which are conducive to a culture of learning and nation- building.

[Applause.]

Mnr I J PRETORIUS: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die Nuwe NP sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis - (1) met skok en afgryse kennis neem van die wrede moord op twee graad 12- leerders van die Hoërskool Uitsig in die munisipale gebied Tygerberg op 27 April vanjaar;

(2) van mening is dat die dood van Bianca Gosh en Amelia Jansen weer eens beklemtoon dat polisiëring in dié gebied verskerp moet word;

(3) die oprigting van ‘n polisiekantoor in dié bende-geteisterde gebied as noodsaaklik ag en die Regering, wat hiervoor verantwoordelik is, weer eens dringend versoek om hieraan aandag te gee; en

(4) sy opregte meegevoel betuig met die naasbestaandes van die twee slagoffers. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr I J PRETORIUS: Mr Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) notes with shock and dismay the brutal murder of two Grade 12 pupils of the Uitsig High School in the Tygerberg municipal area on 27 April this year;

(2) is of the opinion that the deaths of Bianca Gosh and Amelia Jansen once again emphasise the fact that policing in this area should be improved;

(3) regards the establishment of a police station in this gang-ravaged area to be essential, and once again urgently requests the Government, which is responsible for this, to give attention to this; and

(4) conveys its sincere condolences to the next of kin of the two victims.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  Zimbabwe's main opposition party is considering a boycott of the
       parliamentary elections, due by August, because of political
       violence; and


   (b)  the policy body of the Movement for Democratic Change will meet
       today to make a final decision;

(2) recognises that it is important for the enhancement and stabilisation of Zimbabwe’s democracy that all political parties participate in the election; and

(3) calls on the MDC and all other parties to take part in, and to commit themselves to, free and fair elections in Zimbabwe.

[Applause.]

Mr M A MANGENA: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the Azapo:

That the House notes -

(1) the frequent incidents of farmworkers being evicted from farms;

(2) the equally frequent refusal by farmers to allow farmworkers to bury their dead on the farms on which they reside;

(3) that in many cases the evicted farmworkers had spent all their lives working on those farms;

(4) that this happens despite the existence of a law protecting the rights of such workers against unfair eviction; and

(5) calls upon the relevant law enforcement entities to do their job and, by so doing, help to create more humane and harmonious rural communities.

Mr G P MNGOMEZULU: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  the numerous fatal accidents on the Moloto road outside
       Pretoria; and
   (b)  that a considerable number of people have died within two months
       due to buses that were not roadworthy;

(2) congratulates the MEC for transport in Gauteng, Mr Khabisi Mosunkutu, for taking bold steps in testing the roadworthiness of buses;

(3) expresses its sincere sympathy to those who have lost loved ones as a result of the negligence of bus and taxi operators; and

(4) calls on bus and taxi companies to put the lives of their commuters before profit.

[Applause.] Ms J A SEMPLE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  the turmoil in Zimbabwe is having a direct impact on South
       African tourism;


   (b)  tour operators have reported cancellations of 50% by large
       international tour groups to the SADC region; and


   (c)  tourism makes a vital contribution to the region's economy;

(2) requests the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, Valli Moosa, to ensure that Satour offices abroad are sufficiently briefed on the situation in Zimbabwe; and

(3) calls on South Africa to start an all-out initiative to reassure tourists that this country is safe, secure and provides good value for money.

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  one Julia Mashele was found not guilty by our courts earlier
       this month;


   (b)  she was kept in custody for seven years; and


   (c)  her numerous applications for bail were all refused, showing
       that something is wrong with our judicial system; and

(2) requests the hon the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development to launch an in-depth investigation into this matter.

Dr Z P JORDAN: Mr Chair, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  the continuous attempts by members of our opposition parties to
       link the instability of our currency to the crisis in Zimbabwe;
       and


   (b)  that the strength of a currency is determined by the strength of
       the domestic economy;

(2) recognises that market forces, the inflation rate, money supply and interest rates determine the value of a currency; and

(3) calls on the opposition to stop misleading the public by linking the crisis in Zimbabwe to the slump in the rand, but to work with the Government in its attempts to create an economically stable Southern Africa.

[Applause.]

Mr H A SMIT: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) is of the opinion that -

   (a)  Denel's multimillion rand contract for supplying laser
       rangefinders to the British military should fill each South
       African with pride and joy; and


   (b)  this is proof, once again, that South Africa is a world leader
       in a specialised area;

(2) hopes that this order will lead to further purchases of laser rangefinders by other Nato countries; and

(3) notes that -

   (a)  this order is one of several that Denel has received from
       foreign institutions over a period of time and that another
       remarkable order is one by General Electric for aeroplane gear-
       boxes; and


   (b)  by supplying such state-of-the-art technology Denel not only
       builds South Africa's international image, but also contributes
       to local job creation - a very important factor in order to set
       our house in order.

Mr E I EBRAHIM: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  the UN's new efforts to broker peace between Ethiopia and
       Eritrea; and


   (b)  the role played by the OAU to help to smooth out final details
       of a peace plan;

(2) recognises that continued conflict is detrimental to the aspirations of the people of Ethiopia and Eritrea; and

(3) calls on the countries involved to accept the peace process and to contribute to our efforts to bring peace and stability to our continent as envisaged by the African renaissance.

[Applause.]

Mrs S V KALYAN: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) notes the announcement by five pharmaceutical companies yesterday on price reductions in some Aids drugs;

(2) welcomes this announcement as a step towards making life-saving drugs more accessible to millions of South Africans infected with HIV;

(3) acknowledges that this announcement could have happened considerably earlier had the Government adopted a less hostile and confrontational approach to pharmaceutical companies; and

(4) calls on the Department of Health to initiate an urgent investigation to determine whether it has sufficient trained personnel to ensure compliance by patients with drug regimes once the drugs are made available to them, and that distribution mechanisms are adequate to ensure that these drugs actually reach all the intended beneficiaries.

[Interjections.]

Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) daarvan kennis neem dat die SA Polisiediens oor ‘n tydperk van ‘n jaar meer as 1 600 vuurwapens as gevolg van nalatigheid verloor het;

(2) ‘n beroep op die Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit doen om streng tugstappe in te stel teen diegene wat as gevolg van nalatigheid hul wapens verloor of laat steel; en

(3) die Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit versoek om staatsinstellings in te sluit by die streng stoormaatreëls waarvoor die voorgestelde wet op wapenbeheer voorsiening maak. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Dr B L Geldenhuys: Mr Chairman, I give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that over a period of a year the SA Police Service has lost more than 1 600 firearms as a result of negligence;

(2) appeals to the Minister of Safety and Security to institute strict disciplinary proceedings against those who lose their firearms or have them stolen as a result of negligence; and

(3) requests the Minister of Safety and Security to include state institutions in the strict storage measures for which the proposed firearms control act makes provision.]

                      MOTHERS' DAY CELEBRATIONS

                          Draft Resolution)

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, I move without notice: That the House -

(1) wishes all South African women a happy Mothers’ Day on 14 May 2000;

(2) recognises that the women in South Africa are special and were burdened with a demanding and unique role to accomplish liberation;

(3) agrees that women are the givers of life who are persevering to build a strong foundation for the children who are the future leaders;

(4) believes that mothers are an asset to the development of South Africa; and

(5) takes this opportunity to wish all mothers love and a prosperous life with their families.

[Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! This is a singularly important motion. The presiding officers join hon members in wishing all mothers a happy Mothers’ Day. [Applause.]

Agreed to.

REFERRAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDEPENDENT COMMUNICATIONS AUTHORITY COUNCILLORS TO PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move the draft resolution printed in my name in the Order Paper, as follows:

That the matter of the appointment of councillors on the Council of the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa, in accordance with section 5(1) of the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa Act, 2000, be referred to the Portfolio Committee on Communications for consideration and report.

Agreed to.

REFERRAL OF NATIONAL YOUTH COMMISSION AMENDMENT BILL TO JOINT MONITORING COMMITTEE (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move the draft resolution printed in my name in the Order Paper, as follows:

That, subject to the concurrence of the National Council of Provinces ─

(1) in accordance with Joint Rule 32(2)(b), the National Youth Commission Amendment Bill, 2000, upon its introduction, be referred to the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Children, Youth and Disabled Persons for consideration and report;

(2) for the purposes of the consideration of this bill, Joint Rules 167 to 171 apply to the said committee; and

(3) notwithstanding Joint Rule 132E, Joint Rule 115 apply to the said committee for the purposes of taking decisions on the bill.

Agreed to.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Resumption of debate on Vote No 14 - Home Affairs:

Mr D A MOKOENA: Chairperson, hon Minister of Home Affairs, Dr Mangosuthu Buthelezi, Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, Dr Lindiwe Sisulu, absent due to a family bereavement and the added task of managing disaster relief, the director-general, Mr Billy Masetlha, and deputy director Mr Lambinon and their entourage - we have just received an apology from the CEO of the IEC, Prof Mandla Mchunu, due to the fact that his brother is terminally ill

• all the officials of the department and the Ministry; we welcome all to this debate.

I rise in support of Vote No 14, Home Affairs, on behalf of the portfolio committee. I assumed the office of chair of the portfolio committee on 15 February 2000. The committee and I set about drawing up a programme of action. I have enjoyed enormous support and co-operation from the portfolio committee in the 11 weeks that I have worked with them. I am proud to say that there exists a very good relationship between the portfolio committee and both our Minister and Deputy Minister and our new and dynamic director- general, Mr Billy Masetlha, who is prepared to work very closely with the portfolio committee so that we can attend to all complex issues of Home Affairs.

A few remarks are important here. When we talk about home affairs, we mean that South Africa is a home to all of us. We are blessed here with a very large piece of land which is based on a solid piece of rock, with no earthquakes, no volcanos, no hurricanes, no thunderstorms. It has lovely, affable, democratic people and a very good democratic Constitution. It has a good climate and a stable economy, as the economic fundamentals are in place. All these things add value to South Africa as a home. That is why South Africa now appears to be a candle to which all the moths come rushing. The problems that we have in Home Affairs are as a result of the stability and economic prosperity that we have in this country.

I would like to make the point that it is because of the central nature of this Ministry that Home Affairs cannot afford to exist as an island. It must interface with other Ministries. It is important to go beyond the security ministerial cluster and work closely with the Ministries of Trade and Industry, of Health, of Welfare and even that of Environmental Affairs and Tourism. I am delighted that the Minister touched on some of these things yesterday in his speech.

The Chief Whip of the Majority Party, the hon Tony Yengeni, describes home affairs as the underbelly of the country. I agree with him and would like to add another metaphor - that it is, in fact, the heartbeat of the country. If things go wrong in home affairs, we do not have a country. For us, as politicians, the challenge is not to adopt a partisan stance when we deal with home affairs issues and to indulge in point-scoring. We should adopt a more collaborative and co-operative approach. As a department, I would suggest the following five principles: The principle of Batho Pele, which is ``people first’’, efficiency, clean administration, zero tolerance of corruption, and, of course, astute budget management. [Applause.]

I have already portrayed us as a country as being a home, and as a home, it is important that we must be open to criticism. We must be able to criticise ourselves. When one looks at Home Affairs, in respect of the department, there has been very little transformation, if any. It is very imperceptible. The person in the street does not yet see change in Home Affairs, and the director-general was big enough to confess that when he came to brief the portfolio committee.

There the old-style apartheid does still exist. The attitudes of the officials on the ground are wrong. It is OK and progressive on top. The men and women who came to brief us were very professional in their presentations and we were very impressed. However, the reality is that - unfortunately, the hon Minister has a high profile and cannot disguise it - if one goes out to any of the Home Affairs offices, one will be subjected to humiliation and to the old style of doing things - the slowness, the tardiness, and so on. [Applause.] Therefore, I would not suggest that the hon the Minister …

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Poppycock!

Mr D A MOKOENA: I would not suggest that the hon the Minister should try to disguise it. [Laughter.] It is not poppycock; it is a fact! The public hearings that we are going to conduct next week are going to bear testimony to that, and we are going to send a report to this Parliament. However, the Ministry is superb, the department at the top is excellent, but, on the ground, there is still a lot of work to be done. [Interjections.]

It will not help us as public representatives to stand at this podium and paint a glossy picture. We must be able to admit it if there are wrong things happening down there. Home Affairs is in charge of the lives of our people. It looks after the people from the cradle to the grave. It issues all those essential documents like the birth certificates, the IDs, marriage certificates, visas and passports, right up to death certificates. It is important to get the Department of Home Affairs right in order that the democracy that we have won and fought for should be appreciated by our people. That is an open criticism, and I am also looking forward to playing a meaningful role in as far as this is concerned. It is not to cast aspersions on anybody. It is just a fact of life.

I was impressed by the very extensive input that the hon the Minister gave yesterday on the question of the difficult subject of migration. Migration is a worldwide problem, and South Africa has an added burden because of the turbulence in Africa. The African diaspora, which has caused many people to flee their countries, become scattered all over the continent and also come here in search of refuge, has really caused major problems for the hon the Minister. Unfortunately, these people are not segmented by the media; they are just lumped together. There are those who are refugees and who come here to seek refugee status. [Interjections.] There are those who seek permanent residence. There are those who want work permits and there are those who are illegal immigrants.

The illegal immigrants are the ones who are posing a problem to the hon the Minister and the director-general. I would like to say that we should have zero tolerance with regard to illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants are not required in any country, and we should not pose as Father Christmas here and give the impression that we are benevolent. We should only succour and accommodate those people who come here through the protocols of Home Affairs, who apply and have proper accreditation.

The hon the Minister has a budget of R1,3 billion. I agree with him that that budget is not enough, because it has been stagnant for about five years, and the workload he has is just too great. He does require more money. I, as a politician, agree with him and support him completely. However, I think we should look at the seven pieces of legislation that his ministry has passed and is administering: The Identification Act of 1997, The South African Citizenship Act of 1995, the Aliens Control Act of 1991, the Refugees Act of 1998, the South African Passports and Travel Documents Act of 1994, the Births and Deaths Registration Act of 1992, and last, but not least, the Films and Publications Act of 1996.

I would like to suggest to the director-general that, in order for our budget to be credible, he must try to cost every piece of legislation and say: What does it cost the department to administer this legislation? Of course one will build onto that one’s normal overheads. That will mean that when the Minister comes here and asks for a supplementary budget, there can be justification, and State Expenditure cannot refuse. That, I think, is the only credible way in which we will be able to get more money. [Interjections.]

The African renaissance is a very important aspect of the Department of Home Affairs. Our President has championed the African renaissance campaign. To me this campaign has three legs: Leg number one says that the Africans in this country must rise up, pull themselves up by their bootstraps and dispense with the syndrome of dependency. The second leg says that our white compatriots must not behave as if they are Europeans in South Africa, but must espouse African values, because their destiny is inextricably intertwined with us here. [Applause.] [Interjections.] The third leg of this African renaissance is that the African leaders on the continent must stop dictatorships and espouse democracy. [Interjections.] They must subject themselves to the democratic test and be credible leaders. That is what is going to assist us in stemming the tide of the inflow of all these illegals that are fleeing their countries and coming here.

I know that there are people who believe that one must be sympathetic to the illegals, because, after all, they succoured our comrades when they were in exile. Our comrades were confined to camps and they were focused. They were there for military training; that is why they were able to defeat the apartheid regime. They did not run roaring businesses on the pavements of Lusaka or London. [Laughter.] [Applause.] That is why they were able to come here and interface with the Mass Democratic Movement, and all other progressive forces, to bring down apartheid.

Now, if we succour these people, we become oversympathetic. They are not going to go back to their countries. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mnr I J PRETORIUS: Mnr die Voorsitter, dit is vir my aangenaam om aan hierdie debat deel te neem. Ek stem eintlik net oor een saak met mnr Mokoena saam, naamlik dat onwettige immigrante nie in Suid-Afrika welkom is nie. Ek steun daardie standpunt van hom 100%. Ek wil graag voortgaan deur die nuwe direkteur-generaal, mnr Masetlha, geluk te wens met sy aanstelling. Ek vertrou dat hy suksesvol sal wees en die departement goed sal bestuur.

Die Minister van Binnelandse Sake, mnr Buthelezi, is iemand met wie ‘n mens maklik oor die weg kom. Sy departement het natuurlik een baie groot probleem, naamlik dat hulle te min personeel het. Hulle het te min personeel omdat hulle te min geld van die sentrale Regering ontvang. Dit is hier ook uitgewys deur die ANC. Geen departement kan behoorlik funksioneer indien hulle nie genoeg geld het nie. Later meer daaroor. As Wes-Kaapse LP en woordvoerder van die Nuwe NP wil ek noem dat die departement se kantore in die Wes-Kaap met wie ek saamwerk - Kaapstad, Bellville en Paarl - na my mening baie doeltreffend funksioneer. Ons kry hulle volle samewerking. Die onderfinansiering van dié departement bring mee dat daar nie ‘n behoorlike diens aan die kiesers gelewer kan word nie. As ek reg onthou, het die personeel in 1987 binne ‘n jaar van 7 000 na 5 800 verminder. Dit is ‘n aanduiding dat daar nie genoeg mense is om die werk te doen nie.

Die demokratiese proses word ook hierdeur benadeel. Kom ons kyk byvoorbeeld na die Onafhanklike Verkiesingskommissie, die OVK. Die kommissie ontvang R450 miljoen van die R1,2 miljard wat aan die departement toegeken is. Dit laat hierdie departement maar met ongeveer R600 miljoen om sy werk te doen.

Verder, ‘n mens dink daaraan dat die Onafhanklike Klagtedirektoraat van die SA Polisiediens sy eie begrotingspos het. Die OVK het egter nie ‘n eie begrotingspos nie. Ek glo dit is ‘n aangeleentheid waarna gekyk moet word, want die OVK is net soos die Onafhanklike Klagtedirektoraat ook ‘n waghond- organisasie. Dit beteken dus dat hulle op dieselfde manier behandel behoort te word. Ek wil die Minister van Finansies vra dat hy dringend sal kyk na die probleme wat die finansiering van die Departement van Binnelandse Sake betref.

Ek wil enkele gedagtes met agb lede wissel omtrent onwettige immigrante. Volgens die jongste skatting is daar tans ongeveer 8 miljoen onwettige immigrante in Suid-Afrika. Weet agb lede dat die komponent van die departement wat dit behartig net 325 pleks van 1 200 personeellede het om hul werk te doen? [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit is vir hulle onmoontlik om hul werk te doen met so min mense. Verlede jaar is net 180 000 onwettige immigrante gedeporteer. Die departement het ‘n som gemaak en gesê as die getal van 8 miljoen staties bly, sal dit met die huidige personeelkomponente 44 jaar neem om dié onwettiges uit Suid-Afrika te kry.

Ek wil graag verwys na die vlugtelingprobleem wat ontstaan het weens die huidige onrus in Zimbabwe, aangesien die vlugtelinge van Zimbabwe na Botswana gaan. As dit na Suid-Afrika moet oorspoel, gaan ons ‘n groot krisis in hierdie land hê. Dié probleem beïnvloed tans net vir Botswana, maar weens ‘n rimpeleffek gaan dit ook Suid-Afrika en al die lande in ons omgewing benadeel.

Dan wil ek graag ook sê dat ek die Minister steun as dit kom by een besondere voorstel wat hy gister in sy toespraak gedoen het. Dit hou verband met die uitbreiding van dienste. Ek is al oor baie jare heen ‘n voorstander daarvan dat munisipale kantore, in die gebiede waar daar nie ‘n kantoor van Binnelandse Sake is nie, aangewend kan word as die kantoor van Binnelandse Sake. Dit sal dan die diens nader aan die mense bring. Ek weet van geen dorp of dorpie in Suid-Afrika waar daar nie ‘n munisipale kantoor is nie.

Ek glo dat hulle op ‘n agentskapsbasis met die Departement van Binnelandse Sake moet saamwerk om seker te maak dat kiesers op ‘n deurlopende grondslag geregistreer word en dat aansoek vir identiteitsdokumente gedoen kan word. So kan ander belangrike take ook by hierdie kantore uitgevoer word, soos die uitreik van geboorte-, sterfte- en huweliksertifikate.

Ek wil graag aan die Minister sê ek hoop hierdie plan van hom kan deurgevoer word, want dan behoort die diens aan die publiek te verbeter. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.) [Mr I J PRETORIUS: Mr Chairperson, it is my pleasure to participate in this debate. I actually only agree with Mr Mokoena on one matter, namely that illegal immigrants are not welcome in South Africa. I support his point of view 100%. I would like to go on to congratulate the new director-general, Mr Masetlha, on his appointment. I trust that he will be successful and that he will manage the department well.

The Minister of Home Affairs, Mr Buthelezi, is easy to get along with. Of course his department has one very big problem, namely that they have too few personnel. They have too few personnel because they receive too little money from central Government. This has also been pointed out here by the ANC. No department can function properly if they do not have enough money. More about that later on.

As a Western Cape MP and spokesperson for the New NP I want to mention that, in my opinion, the departmental offices in the Western Cape with whom I co-operate - Cape Town, Bellville and Paarl - are functioning very efficiently. We get their full co-operation. The underfinancing of this department results in its being impossible to render a proper service to the voters. If I remember correctly, in 1987 the staff decreased within a year from 7 000 to 5 800. This is an indication that there are not enough people to do the work.

The democratic process is also being adversely affected by this. Let us, for example, look at the Independent Electoral Commission, the IEC. The commission receives R450 million of the R1,2 billion allocated to the department. This leaves this department with only approximately R600 million to do its work.

Furthermore, one thinks of the fact that the Independent Complaints Directorate of the SA Police Service has its own budget. The IEC does not have its own budget, however. I believe that this is a matter we should look at, because the IEC, like the Independent Complaints Directorate, is also a watchdog organisation. This, therefore, means that they should be treated in the same manner. I want to ask the Minister of Finance to urgently look at the problems regarding the financing of the Department of Home Affairs.

I want to exchange a few ideas with hon members about illegal immigrants. According to the most recent estimation there are currently approximately 8 million illegal immigrants in South Africa. Do hon members know that the component of the department that deals with this only has 325 staff members instead of 1 200 to do their work? [Interjections.] It is impossible for them to do their work with so few people. Last year only 180 000 illegal immigrants were deported. The department has calculated that if the amount of 8 million remains static, it will take 44 years with the current staff components to deport these illegal immigrants from South Africa.

I would like to refer to the refugee problem which has arisen as a result of the current unrest in Zimbabwe, since the refugees from Zimbabwe are going to Botswana. If this should spill over to South Africa we are going to have a big crisis in this country. This problem is currently only affecting Botswana, but as a result of a ripple effect it will also adversely affect South Africa and all the other countries in our region.

I would also like to say that I support the Minister when it comes to one specific proposal he made in his speech yesterday. This concerns the extension of services. For many years now I have been in favour of municipal offices, in the areas where there are no Home Affairs offices, being used as the Home Affairs office. This will then bring the service closer to the people. I do not know of a town or village in South Africa which does not have a municipal office.

I believe that they should co-operate with the Department of Home Affairs on an agency basis to ensure that voters are registered on a continuous basis and that identity documents can be applied for. In the same way other important tasks can also be performed by these offices, such as the issuing of birth, death and marriage certificates.

I would like to say to the Minister that I hope this plan of his can be implemented, because then the service to the public ought to improve. [Applause.]]

Nkskz C I GCINA: Mhlalingaphambili, uMphathiswa wethu obekekileyo nesimthandayo, abakhulu kumzi wezazisi, amaqabane onke akhoyo apha eNdlwini kunye nabakwicala langasekhohlo siyabulisa.

Mayiqwalaselwe ngokutsha into yokuba xa abantu besiya kufuna izazisi zabo kuthiwe mabeze neziqinisekiso zokuzalwa kuba asingabo bonke abantu abanazo. Komnye kuye kuthiwe makeze nephepha lesikolo awayefunda kuso. Ngelo xesha ke akazange aye kwa ukuya esikolweni ngenxa yengxaki yobunzima ekhayeni lakhe.

Omnye akanabo abazali, ukhuliswe zizihlobo zakhe ezingamazi nokuba wazalwa ngawuphi na unyaka, kodwa kuthiwe loo mntu makeze nezazisi zabazali bakhe angabaziyo. Abantu abadala bona baba nabantwana aze umzali lowo angamazi umntwana wakhe ukuba wamzala ngawuphi na unyaka. Nabo abo bantwana baye bajikiswe bengazifumananga izazisi ezo. Sadibana neengxaki ezinjalo ke ngethuba lephulo elinguVotani Mawethu. Besicela ukuba ziqwalaselwe ukuze zingaphindi zenzeke.

Enye ingxaki esiye sadibana nayo kukuba athi umama akumfumana umntwana amthabathe aye kumlahla kutata wakhe, aze athi xa umntwana esiya kufuna isazisi kuthiwe makeze nomama wakhe, abe umama wakhe engaziwa nalapho waya kutshona khona. Le ngxaki sidibene nayo eMpuma Koloni eMonti, sikwiphulo likaVotani. Ndiyamngqinela uSihlalo wam uAubrey Mokoena xa esithi ingxaki esinazo ezantsi kwiSebe lezeKhaya ngabantu abaqeshiwe kulo zinzima. Saye saxambulisana ke sibabonisa ukuba loo mntwana wayekufanele ukufumane isazisi kuba umama wakhe wamlahla eselusana wamsa kutata wakhe. Ngelo xesha ke utata wakhe wayekhona, ephethe iincwadi-zazisi zakhe kunye nesiqinisekiso sokuzalwa somntwana, kodwa kwabe kusathiwa umntwana makeze nomama wakhe angazange wambona ekukhuleni kwakhe. Nezi iingxaki siyacela ukuba zijongwe.

Kwezinye izitishi ezinjengeso sefama yasePatterson akukho mbane okanye izikhanyisi eziqaqambileyo zokukhanyisela abavoti ukuze bakwazi ukusebenza. Awamaninzanga amafama athi abase abantu bawo ngezithuthi ezinjengeelori eluvotweni. Akhona loo mafama abasayo abasebenzi bawo. Abanye abantu bahamba imigama emide besuka kwezo fama besiya kwizitishi zovoto bafike kuvaliwe ngenxa yokuba kungekho mbane.

Abanye babo bafika sele kuvaliwe ezitishini ekubhaliswa kuzo nangona bencedwa ngamafama abasebenza kuwo. Inani elininzi labantu lifika sele kuvaliwe kwezi ndawo. Ezi fama zifama ezisePatterson, ezingenambane. Singathanda ukuba uMphathiswa ayiqwalasele le meko kuba isininzi sabantu basezifama abancedakali xa kufuneka bevotile.

Abasebenzi basezimafama abaninzi kweza zithuba ze-Albany, apho ndithunyelwe ukuya kusebenza khona, abalifumani ithuba lokuvota. Abakwazi kubhalisa kuba abaqeshi babo abafuni ukuba baye kubhalisa. Umntu uyaya athethe nabaqeshi, aze akulandelisa kamva afumane abaqeshwa besithi: ``Asizange siye kubhalisa.’’

Zininzi iingxaki esizifumana kubaqeshwa beSebe lezeKhaya ekufuneka bencede abantu. Ababancedi abantu bethu abantsundu. Siyacela ke ukuba le nto mayingenzeki, kwanokuba amaziko ezicelo zezazisi mawasondezwe ebantwini kuba abantu abanayo kwa imali yokuya kwiindawo ezizidolophu ezinamaziko eSebe lezeKhaya. Abantu bethu kwezi ndawo basokola kangangokuba abakho kuluhlu lwabavoti baseMzantsi Afrika ngalo mzuzu ngenxa yezo zizathu. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa speech follows.)

[Mrs C I GCINA: Chairperson, we greet our hon Minister, whom we love, senior officials from Home Affairs, all comrades present in the House, as well as those who are seated on the left side of the House.

The requirement that people who apply for IDs should bring their birth certificate should be reviewed, because not everybody has a birth certificate. Sometimes one is required to bring references from a school one attended, whereas one never attended school because of family hardships.

Sometimes one does not have parents and one was brought up by relatives who do not even know which year one was born in, but one is asked to bring a parent’s ID. Some of the old, illiterate people have children and they do know their dates of birth. Such children are also turned away without getting their IDs. That is the kind of problems we came across during the voter education campaign. We would like to have these problems attended to so that they do not happen again.

We also came across a problem of a child whose mother had abandoned her, leaving her with her father, and who, on applying for an ID, was told to bring along her mother, yet nobody knew her mother’s whereabouts. We came across this problem in East London in the Eastern Cape during the voter education campaign. I agree with my chairperson Aubrey Mokoena when he says that the problems we experience at the hands of people employed in the Department of Home Affairs are complex. We had a heated discussion with them, trying to show them that that child had to get her ID because her mother had abandoned her when she was still a baby, leaving her with her father. In the meantime, her father was present, with his identity document and the child’s birth certificate, yet the officials insisted on her bringing her mother along, a mother she had never met. Even problems like these we would like attended to.

At other voting stations, such as the one on a particular farm in Patterson, there was no electricity or bright lights. Not many farmers ferried their employees to voting stations on their lorries. However, some of the farmers did. Some people walked long distances from their farms to voting stations and when they got there found them closed because there was no electricity.

Although some of them were helped by their employers to get to the registration centres, a large number of them found them closed. These are farms in Patterson, which have no electricity. We would like the Minister to consider this situation because the majority of people who work on farms do not get any assistance when they have to vote.

Many farmworkers around the Albany area, where I am deployed, do not get the opportunity to vote. They cannot register as voters because their employers do not want them to. Sometimes one talks to these employers, but on making a follow up one finds the farmworkers saying: ``We did not go to register.’’

We experience many problems with the staff of the Department of Home Affairs who have to help people. They do not help black people. We appeal that this stops, and that Home Affairs offices be brought closer to the people, because people do not even have money to go to urban areas where these offices are. Our people in these areas are struggling to such an extent that they are not on South Africa’s voters’ roll even as we speak, on account of these factors. [Applause.]]

Prince N E ZULU: Somlomo, mhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe womNyango wezaseKhaya namalungu onke ahloniphekileyo. [I take pleasure in saluting Madam Speaker, the hon the Minister of Home Affairs and hon members.]

I appreciate the fact that the Minister, in his speech yesterday, spelt out in no uncertain terms all the shortfalls within his department. The department has met with difficulty in developing maximally because of insufficient funding over the years. The Minister made it even clearer when he said:

Since 1994, in real terms, there has been a decline in the resources allocated to our department.

Perhaps it is this level of transparency from the side of the Minister that pre-empted the gist of the opposition yesterday, when the hon Waters resorted to bickering at the podium.

His Excellency President Mbeki is committed to democracy and has a zeal for the African renaissance. However, the attitudes of the likes of the hon Waters will make his task even more difficult. He has hammered the sense of the renaissance into many a person and has done everything possible to instil a sense of ubuntu in both young and old. In contrast to that, this House witnessed a complete negation of the spirit of the African renaissance when the young hon member displayed that attitude towards an elderly statesman, the Minister of Home Affairs. [Applause.]

National politics require a degree of maturity. Such maturity is measured by age, education and experience. Juvenile politics is a result of the lack of one or all of these qualities. For the young hon Waters to disparage the Minister and to speak of the stupidity of the Ministry, is enough to make the angels cry and ask: ``Does the member know how hard the people fought for this democracy?’’ [Applause.]

Home Affairs has a responsibility to over 40 million South Africans, plus thousands of international visitors, thousands of refugees and asylum- seekers and millions of undocumented foreigners. The political maturity necessary for responsibility over such a large number of people cannot be matched with the juvenile politics seen at the podium yesterday.

I thank the hon De Lange for his quick intervention here yesterday when false liberalism was coming to the surface. This democracy is not up for abuse, not up for abuse by any means by both the elderly and the truants who could not finish the school of political maturity. [Applause.] The price paid was too high, dear and supreme. These veterans and all of us will honour it all the time.

Inhlangano yezokusakaza, i-SABC, ayiluphathanga ngobunono udaba lukaNgqongqoshe walo mnyango mhlazane ethula umThethosivivinywa woKhetho loMasipala luka-2000 eKomidini lomNyango wezaseKhaya, mhla ka-9 Meyi kwephezulu. Le nhlangano yezokusakaza yenza sengathi uNgqongqoshe wesabisa abathile ngokuhlehliswa kokhetho oluzayo, kanti phinde akunjalo. UNgqongqoshe wawuncoma kakhulu lo mThethosivivinywa waze wathi:

I endorse each of its provisions without reservation.

Wabe eseluleka thina-ke bekomidi ukuthi siwucubungule ngokusheshisa lo Mthethosivivinywa ukuze ubekwe ezithebeni zePhalamende kuso lesi sigamu sokuhlala kwePhalamende. Wakugcizelela lokho ngamazwi athi:

I have been advised by the Department of Provincial Affairs and Local Government that, unless this Bill is passed before the winter recess, an election date might not be declared for this year.

Akakaze esabise muntu ngokuhlehliswa kokhetho. Inhlangano yezokusakaza ikwenzelani ukuba thina beKomidi lezaseKhaya siyiphathise okweqaqa. Ikwenzelani lokho i-SABC na?

Singelibale-ke ukuhalalisela umhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe womnyango, iNkosi yakwaButhelezi, nePhini likaNgqongqoshe uDokotela Sisulu kanye nazo zonke izikhulu zalo mnyango ngendlela bonke ababhukula ngayo ukuze balethe izimfanelo zokhetho lukaJuni 1999. Siyikhumbula kahle-hle imibuzo eziswana eyayithi: ``Do you think you have the capacity to deliver this, that and the other?’’ Kwathi sekuphumelele konke emuva kokhetho, labo bantu abazange babe nesibindi sobudoda baphumele obala bashayele umnyango ihawu. Sihalalisela futhi izikhulu zonke zeKhomishini yoKhetho ngentshisekelo ezayikhombisa kulolo khetho kanye nokuthi-ke siyethemba ukuthi namanje zizoyikhombisa leyo ntshisekelo oKhethweni loHulumeni boMasipala oluzoba khona maduze nje. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[The SABC did not handle the issue of the Minister of Home Affairs properly when he talked to the portfolio committee on 9 May 2000 about local elections for 2000. The SABC made it seem as if the hon the Minister was intimidating certain people because he wanted the elections to be postponed. That was not true. The hon the Minister praised this Bill, saying:

I endorse each of its provisions without reservation. He then advised us as a committee to discuss the Bill quickly so that it could be tabled in Parliament during this session. He emphasised this by saying:

I have been advised by the Department of Provincial Affairs and Local Government that, unless this Bill is passed before the winter recess, an election date might not be declared for this year.

He did not intimidate anyone into postponing the elections. The SABC has made us, as a committee, treat it disgustingly. Why did the SABC do this?

We cannot miss the opportunity to congratulate the hon the Minister, inkosi Buthelezi and his deputy, Dr Sisulu, and other officials in this department on the way they worked to provide all the necessities for the June 1999 elections. We still remember annoying questions which went: ``Do you think you have the capacity to deliver this, that and the other?’’ When everything went well after the elections, those people did not have the courage to come out and applaud the department. We also congratulate all the IEC officials on the courage they showed during the elections. We hope that they will do the same during these coming local government elections. [Applause.]]

Ms A VAN WYK: Chairperson, the Department of Home Affairs is the very first and very last department that deals with the life of a citizen. During the lifetime of an ordinary citizen, he or she will not give much thought to this department. A citizen’s concern would rather lie with those departments that directly impact on the quality of life of every citizen, departments that provide services expected by every citizen.

In the limited time available to debate this very important Vote, I would like to focus my speech on the lack of service delivery within the department and, secondly, on the role of the department in upholding democracy. I argue today that it is the Department of Home Affairs, from the day that it issues a birth certificate to a newborn South African citizen till the day that it issues a death certificate, that impacts most on the life of every citizen.

The Department of Home Affairs is the custodian of citizenship and the privileges that come with that. For example, the population register forms the basis of strategic planning by other Government departments. The Department of Welfare needs the data recorded by the Department of Home Affairs to keep clean and incorrupt records of those citizens who qualify for pension payments.

In many ways, the Department of Home Affairs paved the way for equal citizenship and democracy in South Africa - even if it can be described as emotional and its value as symbolic - with the barcoded ID document which, for the majority of South Africans, was a first taste of full citizenship, freedom and equality. The Constitution does not provide for first-class or second-class citizens. It puts us all equal before the law and one another. Yet, we find an institutional incapacity within the Department of Home Affairs that reduces some South Africans to second-class citizens. [Interjections.] I have told how they do that.

The continuous underfunding of the department impacts negatively on the service delivery of the department. There is no sign in this year’s budget that money will be available to address this serious lack of delivery of the most basic services. On 26 January 2000, the hon Hope Malgas, ANC member of the Eastern Cape legislature, revealed that there were still about 100 000 people in that province without barcoded identity documents. This is an absolute requirement for the reregistration of social grant recipients in that province.

On 3 May the Home Affairs commissioner for Grahamstown reported budget and staff shortages as reasons for lack of service in rural areas. Several communities in the area, stretching from Middleburg right through to Alexandria in the Eastern Cape, are severely affected. People in rural areas are struggling to obtain basic identity and other documents such as birth and death certificates. Home Affairs offices do not have the resources to offer mobile services. Rural communities are battling to get documents that would give them access to state grants. A computer-generated birth certificate is a prerequisite for child support grants. For those living in rural areas, this means a long and expensive trip to the nearest Home Affairs office. This unsatisfactory state of affairs impacts most on the poorest of the poor and denies them their basic rights, such as access to social grants.

As far back as 1997, the then Director-General of Home Affairs publicised an ambitious plan to make Home Affairs more effective. We heard more of the same yesterday. This included plans to improve registering of births and deaths, obtaining ID documents and passports quicker and providing mobile units for rural areas. Instead, during the past two years, we have seen increasing reports of difficulties in the department. The department has been characterised by squabbles, differences and allegations of corruption. The situation got so bad that some of the role-players chose to air their differences in the media. It is clear that there is a lack of coherence from both the political leadership and management. This state of affairs needs to be addressed decisively and as a matter of urgency.

This brings me to the second issue, that is the IEC and the shortage of funding for it. I find it disturbing that in a document provided to the portfolio committee by the department entitled Motivations and Action Plans for the Financial Years 1998-1999 to 2000-2001'', under the section Challenges and Consequences for 2000-2001’’, no reference is made to the financial shortages of the IEC. The IEC’s Vote is not a separate Vote like that of the Independent Complaints Directorate. It falls directly under the Department of Home Affairs as part of their budget.

In its submission to the portfolio committee, the IEC stated that it had requested R998 million for this year. It received less than half the amount it requested - R450 million. It went on, during its submission, to list its critical success factors for delivery of the 2000 elections. First on the list was funding, ironically, then followed a number of other critical success factors. The list ends with increasing voters’ understanding of a complex process, or, in simple terms, voter education. When asked where they will cut, in the light of the shortage of the budget, in order to make ends meet, the reply was: On mobile voter stations and voter education. Again, not providing sufficient funding negatively impacts on those who can afford it least.

Mobile voting stations would serve the rural areas and remote communities. These are the very areas and communities that will be on the receiving end of the complexity of the local government election process. Also, these are the communities that are already being isolated and marginalised in participation through the department’s inability to make themselves and their services available to these very communities. We went through a wave of democratisation, and we should be proud of this. The future of democracy, in both established and emerging systems, depends to a large extent on the issues related to the electoral system. If more and more people are going to feel that they are disenfranchised, either because of a lack of service or institutional inability, then we might very well find ourselves faced with a reverse wave against democracy and the organs of democracy. Our young democracy cannot afford that.

If the Department of Home Affairs does not what to take responsibility for the IEC and its smooth running, then it should come out and say so. Consideration should then be given to handling the IEC as a separate and independent Vote. This department needs proper funding. The democratic world and political commentators might sit on the edge of their seats when the Ministers of Defence, Safety and Security, and Foreign Affairs speak, and the value of the rand might catch a cold if the Minister of Finance sneezes, but we should all recognise the fact that it is the Department of Home Affairs that is the oil lubricating the machinery of Government. [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Morwamoche, before you continue, sir: hon members, please pay attention. Hon E T Ferreira, it will do you good to pay attention to the debate, sir! [Laughter.]

Mna K W MORWAMOCHE: Modulasetulo, maloko a hlomphegago a Ngwako wo hlomphegago, ntumelele le nna gore ke itswalanye le Kabo ye ya Kgoro ya tša Selegae.

Kgoro ya tša Selegae ke ye nngwe ya dikgoro tšeo di nago le mošomo wo montši bophelong bja rena. Mathata a mantši ao e lebanego le wona ke go lokiša moo mmušwana wa maloba, wa kgatelelo le kgethologanyo, o bego o hlokometše go lokišetša makgowa fela le go a kaonefaletša ditirelo. Dileteng tša magaeng, moo go bušago magoši, gammogo le mafelong ka moka a sekgoweng, moo go dulago bathobaso, go be go sa hwetšagale ditirelo, le ge e le go ka di hlabolla ka moo go swanetšego.

Kgoro ye e be e šomisetšwa go hlahla dipresitente tša mmušo wa naga ye, wo e bego e le wa NP. Tona ya kgoro ye, e be e kgona go gatelela bathobaso le go ba gapeletša go tšeya dipasa tša go se swane le tša makgowa. Gape o be a bile a kgona le go kgethologanya batho go ya ka mmala, maleme le dišso tša bona; go swara le go hlahlela batho bao ba tlilego go nyaka mešomo sekgoweng ba e tšwa magaeng. Ba be ba tloge ba mo tumiša ka la gore ke sojwana-wa-mmapeya-tša-Boroka-diba-bjo-go-tsenago-kubu-le-wene-o-ka-tsena.

Bangwaledi ba kgoro ye e be e le makgowa feela, ao a bego a šaetša maina le difane tša bathobaso.

Ke rata go hlokomediša balatedi ba DP le NP gore motho a ka se ke a kgona go senya gomme e re ge batho ba lokiša, le yena a tle a lokiše le bona. Tšeo di kgonwa fela ke bommathakganyane-thakga-tša-malapa-tša-bona-di-ba- paletše. Dulang fase le khutše, le tlo rethefala. Le tloge le re ANC mogatša-rangwane-masekana-hlwara-nkete-pele-ke-go-šale-morago. [Legofsi.]

Theetšang maekemišetšo a mmušo wa ANC wa temokrasi. Mmušo o kwela ditšhaba botlhoko ka gore o a tseba gore ga ba na dikhunolla-moraba le difatanaga tša go latelela dikgoro tša selegae mo ba lego ntshe.

Kgoro ye e na le mananeo a dilete le diofisi tša go thetha le dilete gammogo le tšeo di kgonago go tšame di tšeiša batho dipukwana tša boitsebišo le disetifikeiti tša mahu le tša matswalo. Bašomedi ba yona ba kgona go fihlelela batho diofising tša mešate, dikolong le maokelong. Mokgwa wo wa diofisi tša go thetha o thabelwa le ke setšhaba ka ge ba kgona go fihla moo ba sepela ka maoto.

Balemi, borakgwebo le borameepo, le bona ba hlolela kgoro ye mathata ka go thwala bašomi ba matšwa-ntle, bao ba se nago ditokelo tša go ba ka nageng ye. Bona ba kgahlwa ke ge ba ba lefa ka mpunyane. Mohlang bašomi ba ba išago mašegerepe, ba tlile go šupa Mmušo ka la gore o palelwa ke go ba šireletša. Ba swanetše go tseba gore Mmušo o ka se kgone go šireletša batho ge ba sela magolopo gobane go thwaleng moo ga bona, ba tloge ba thwala bo lenaba-morwa-mokgase bao ba tlwaetšego go hlaba kgomo twebela.

Botate-nthute-go-epa-digwere-e-sego-maano-a-go-ja, le bona ba hlolela kgoro ye mathata, ka gore ge ba bona dipasa tša bona di ngwadilwe dikolotong ba leka go di tšhentšha gore ge tše mphsa di e tla, di tle le dinomoro tšeo di sa kolotego.

Mathata a mantši a hlolwa ke bao ba nyakago go gola mphuwa-fela, gobane ge motho a bona gore mengwaga ya gagwe ga se ya hlwe e lokela mogolo, o leka go tšhentšha mengwaga gore ge pukwana ye ntshwa ya boitsebišo e e tla, e tle e loketše mogolo. Kgoro ye e na le mokgwa wo e o dirišago go lokiša go šaetšega ga maina le matswalo dipukwaneng tša boitsebišo.

Gape go sa na le tlhaelelo ye kgolo ya bašomedi kgorong ye. Dikgotho le tšona ke ye nngwe ya ditlhobaboroko kgorong ye go mafelo ao a se nago ditsela le metlhakase nakong tša dikgetho. Tona o a rereša ge a re mafelo ka moka a kgoro ye a swanetše go tlabakelwa ka dikhomphutara gore batho ba kgone go hwetša ditirelo ka bokgauswi.

Go ba go swana le bomorena Waters le mohumagadi Camerer, ka segagešo re re: ``Mošemane moroga-banna, seroto o loga hlwaela’’. [Legofsi.] (Translation of Sepedi speech follows.)

[Mr K W MORWAMOCHE: Chairperson, hon members of this august House, let me align myself with the Vote of the Department of Home Affairs.

The Department of Home Affairs is one of many departments that play a crucial role in our lives. However, the department is still faced with redressing the imbalances created by the previous oppressive regime that rendered services to white people only. Rural areas under chiefs and other black townships in the urban areas could not receive services and were not satisfactorily developed.

In the past, this department was equipped with the power to advise the President on how well to entrench discrimination. The Minister of Home Affairs then was an authority when it came to oppressing black people and had mastered ways of forcing them to accept identity documents which were different from those of their white counterparts. The apartheid regime discriminated against people on the basis of their race, language or cultural orientation. People from rural areas who went to urban areas looking for work were imprisoned, and the Minister of Home Affairs would then be showered with praise and told that he was a hero amongst heroes. In those days employees of the Department of Home Affairs were white only and they misspelled black people’s names.

I would like to say to the opposition parties, the DP and the New NP, that one cannot destroy something and then when people try to put matters right one comes along and lends a helping hand. Only hypocrites can do that. In actual fact, they should keep quiet because they did nothing during their tenure in the apartheid government. They must sit down and relax. They must acknowledge that our ANC-led Government should lead the way, because they themselves could not make it in the past. [Applause.]

Listen to what the democratic Government of the ANC says. Our Government takes into account the fact that the majority of our people have limited means and as a result, do not have transport to ferry them to provincial departments of Home Affairs. The department has regional and district service points and mobile offices where people can have their IDs and certificates processed.

Some farmers, shopkeepers and mines cause untold misery for the department by employing illegal immigrants, because they use them for their cheap labour. When these illegal immigrants attack them, they turn around and point a finger at the Government, accusing it of not protecting them. They must know that the Government cannot protect racketeers, because by employing illegal immigrants, they have employed people who are experts in committing fraud and masters of weapons of destruction.

Opportunists with evil intentions they, too, cause this department a lot of problems because when they are blacklisted, they apply for IDs with a different date of birth so that the new ID will have a new number.

Other problems are caused by people who want to receive old age pensions. When they know that they still have a few years to wait before they qualify for the old age pension, they intentionally alter their actual date of birth so that when they receive their new ID they will fall in the category of those who qualify to receive the old age pension.

There is a shortage of workers in this department. Another problem for the department is roads - especially in respect of people who live in areas where roads are inaccessible - there is a shortage of water and there is no electricity. All areas, as the Minister has already stated, need to be electrified and given computers so that people can get services near where they stay.

To the likes of Mr Waters and Mrs Camerer I want to say there is a Sepedi adage that states: ``Mosemane moroga-banna, seroto o loga hlwaela’’. [Applause.]]

Mrs I MARS: Chairperson, hon Minister and colleagues, as a service rendering department, Home Affairs has more direct contact with the public than other national departments, resulting in more criticism, more complaints and, frequently, negative publicity. This presents a major challenge to all of us, because Government as such is viewed through the mirror of service delivery. Added to this problem is the fact that service delivery is not only to our own citizens, but also to foreign visitors and immigrants, whose first point of contact in South Africa is with our immigration service.

In view of the fact that we received 7 million visitors in 1999, it could be expected that we are able to cover the ports of entry with well-staffed immigration units. After all, we are a country wishing to further develop a job-creating tourist industry. Unfortunately, this is not so due to a shortage of staff. However, I can report that despite the desperate shortage of posts due to lack of funding, our immigration officials at Johannesburg International Airport - which, after all, is a port of entry for 90% of the people here - are a pleasure to encounter. It is a distinct improvement from the past.

However, unless more posts can be assigned as an investment in the future of our tourist industry, the ever-increasing flow of welcome visitors from abroad will stretch our human resources to breaking point. As it is, the Home Affairs budget allocates 76% to personnel, excluding Hanis and transfer payments, and we have to understand and appreciate that it represents 76% of a totally inadequate budget. Currently, personnel work out of buildings and offices in need of upgrading; offices are poorly equipped and understaffed, thus creating the long queues for our service recipients. As I said before, this is the mirror through which Government is viewed.

To balance this statement, it must be said - and I have a different experience from the chairman of the portfolio committee - that wherever we interacted with officials, we found them to be dedicated, efficient and helpful, but desperate for some relief. We also noted with pleasure - again we differ - that the level of transformation was good and that interpersonal relationships appeared to be sound, but we also noted that at the service delivery points the pressure on personnel was intense. I promised that I would bring this to members’ notice. It was interesting to note how the service personnel were aware of the current budgetary constraints and were putting in the extra effort. I also want to refer to a workshop held with the foreign chambers of business in November last year at which the Minister assured foreign businessmen that skills migration to this country would be favourably viewed. According to Business Day of 4 May 2000, the Minister urged the new immigration board to speed up the processing of applications, and said:

We need to encourage the settlement of skilled people in South Africa whose contribution can foster economic growth.

As a modern country ready to put in place a modern migration policy in a globalising society, we need to understand that we cannot afford to hold back progress through lack of investment in necessary infrastructure and human resources.

With regard to refugees, I note with pleasure that provisions of the Refugees Act are about to be implemented. They provide for an independent refugee appeal board and refugee receiving offices. These are very important issues, as our accepted refugees, as opposed to illegal aliens, need protection and the ability to appeal arbitrary decisions. Here I would like to urge all of us to take the trouble to disseminate information … [Time expired.]

Miss M N BUTHELEZI: Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon members, I want to congratulate the Minister on delivering his budget speech in this House yesterday.

My focus will be on peri-urban and rural communities. Home Affairs offices offer essential services which are in demand on a daily basis to all communities, especially rural and peri-urban communities. Very little has been done to make Home Affairs services accessible to rural and peri-urban communities. Home Affairs offices are still centralised in urban areas.

Other services that were accessible through magistrates’ courts were taken back under Home Affairs’ wing without any further decentralisation or alternative access points being set up for such services. The problem of accessibility is evident. At the beginning of the year when rural communities came to Home Affairs offices for late birth registrations, they had to stay overnight in harsh weather conditions in order to be at the front in long queues. Of late, demands for Home Affairs services have picked up. Examples of the service requested are registration of births, deaths, marriages and elections and the obtaining of identity documents. Very little has been done to satisfy these demands.

Mobile units in rural areas have failed to alleviate the problem of accessibility. Going to Home Affairs offices, for rural or peri-urban communities, is a day or two-day activity. The locations of these offices are still skewed towards a few community members who are staying in town. Some of the Home Affairs offices in small, remote towns with bigger spheres of influence are not linked up to the head office or regional offices. One cannot be issued with a birth or death certificate on site. One has to make more than one trip in order to get a complete service. The present regional offices are servicing very wide areas. In future, the regional offices should be in line with the new boundaries of the district council demarcation.

The department also needs to educate its staff about the history of this country, because most of our aged people are illiterate. They do not know their dates of birth, but know what happened in which year.

Uma ngingenza isibonelo nje, uma umuntu omdala ethi: Ngazalwa ngoLwesibili lokuqala enyangeni okwakuliwa ngayo impi yaseNcome. Umsebenzi kumele azi ukuthi impi yaseNcome yayingoDisemba ka-1838. [To give an example, if an elderly person says: I was born on the second Thursday after the Battle of Blood River, the employee must know that the Battle of Blood River took place in December 1838.]

This contributes to wrong dates of birth being given by staff members, and then aged people’s pensions are affected. Soon the department will embark on the Hanis process, which we call a smart card. This is a complicated system, but we need to start educating the departmental staff and the community about it now. The department must make sure that the pensions of old people are not affected by the system. We urge the departmental staff to work with commitment in servicing our community.

In order to overcome the problem of accessibility, I suggest the following: Firstly, additional offices of the Department of Home Affairs should be built in areas that have been underserviced; secondly, at the very least, existing Government offices in rural and peri-urban areas, such as magistrates’ and welfare offices, should have sections devoted to home affairs; and, thirdly, the number and frequency of mobile offices should be increased. By working together and with commitment, there will be no backlogs or problems in the department and the lives of South Africans will be better. [Applause.]

Mr G A J GROBLER: Chairperson, I just want to say to the hon Zulu that political wisdom is far more important than age.

Let me speak about Vote No 14, the stepchild of the Minister of Finance. On the Film and Publication Board I can say the following: The board’s main task is to classify films, videos and certain publications for appropriate viewership to determine what children should or should not see. All film material distributed in South Africa, except for that shown on TV, is classified by the board.

The Film and Publication Board’s mission states clearly: ``To protect our children from harmful and exploitive material’’, but does the Film and Publication Board achieve this goal? I say no; and why not? The task of reviewing these films and videos to determine their suitability for age groups cannot be done properly because of the lack of sufficient funds as expressed by the CEO of this organisation at the portfolio committee meeting. A culture of lawlessness has already been created in South Africa. Now a culture of immorality is becoming a national pastime. I think that it is time that the Government got serious about morality in this country.

A little bit on the Government Printing Works: Although the Government Printing Works in Pretoria generates sufficient income to be self- sustaining, the Umtata Printing Works, on the contrary, has an annual loss of more than R10 million. More frightening is the fact that these losses are related to personnel costs - about R44 million in the past four years. The private sector is already supplying printing materials for Government purposes. Why not give all these printing materials to private companies and shut down the printing works in Umtata? This was already mentioned yesterday. Why must the taxpayers in South Africa tolerate this incompetence of personnel? The last time the Government Printing Works had a surplus of R2,6 million on their trading account was in the 1997-98 financial year. This small surplus has been turned around in a massive shortage of R12,9 million for the financial year ended May 2000. Ek wil ‘n bietjie aandag gee aan die Onafhanklike Verkiesingskommissie en ook wat ``te min geld’’ genoem is. Die basiese besigheidsbeginsel is tog om te organiseer, te beplan, leiding te gee en beheer uit te oefen, en dit word blykbaar nie op alle gebiede by die Onafhanklike Verkiesingskommissie gedoen nie. Groot bedrae word gevra en dan kry ons die resultate, wat ook nie alles 100% uitgevoer word nie.

Kom ek skets vir agb lede ‘n situasie wat ek persoonlik verlede week Donderdag, 4 Mei, in die Vereeniging-Koppadam-stadsraadkantore ervaar het. Vier mense het daar gesit en niks doen nie voor hul rekenaars. Dit is vier amptenare voltyds in diens van die OVK. My vraag aan hulle of ons kiesersregistrasie kan doen, word saaklik beantwoord met ``nee’’. Ek vra waarom nie, en hulle antwoord dat hulle slegs registrasies moes doen tot 31 Maart, en nie weer voor Augustus nie. Hoekom nie? Waarom moet hulle vier maande lank daar sit en niks doen nie?

Ek het uiteindelik in verbinding getree met mnr Makaza, die hoofamptenaar van die OVK wat heraangestel is. Hy sê toe vir my hulle weet tot 16 Mei wat om te doen, maar daarná weet hy ook nie wat gaan gebeur nie, want hy het nie personeel nie. Die DP doen ‘n beroep op die departement, en ek dink die Minister sal met my saamstem, om asseblief saam met die OVK dringende aandag aan dié saak te gee sodat alle partye wat aan die verkiesing gaan deelneem mense op ‘n deurlopende basis kan registreer.

Daar is genoegsame personeel in die stadsrade. Ek weet in Vereeniging is daar 600 in die hele gebied wat sit en niks doen nie, want daardie plek is in elk geval besig om bankrot te speel omdat daar nie werk is vir die mense nie. Hierdie mense kan gebruik word om die OVK te help, sodat ons in November ‘n behoorlike verkiesing kan hê. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[I wish to devote some attention to the Independent Electoral Commission and also to what has been called ``too little money’’. Surely the basic business principle is to organise, plan, give guidance and exercise control, and this is apparently not being done in all spheres of the Independent Electoral Commission. Large amounts are requested and then we have the results, which are not performed 100% either.

Let me tell hon members about a situation that I personally experienced last week Thursday, 4 May, in the Vereeniging-Koppadam City Council offices. Four people were sitting there in front of their computers doing nothing. These are four officials that are in the fulltime employ of the IEC. My question to them as to whether we could proceed with voter registration was met with a businesslike ``no’’. I wanted to know why not, and they replied that they only dealt with registrations up to 31 March, and would not do so again until August. Why not? Why should they sit there and do nothing for four months?

I eventually contacted Mr Makaza, the chief officer of the IEC who has been reappointed. He told me that they knew what to do up to 16 May, but that he did not know what was going to happen after that either, because he did not have staff.

The DP appeals to the department, and I think the Minister will agree with me, please to give attention to this issue as a matter of urgency, so that all parties that are going to participate in the election can register people on a continuous basis.

There is enough staff in the city councils. I know that in Vereeniging there are 600 in the entire area who are sitting there doing nothing, because that place is going bankrupt in any event because there are no jobs for the people. These people can be used to assist the IEC, so that we can have a proper election in November. [Time expired.]]

Mr M U KALAKO: Mr Chairperson, hon Ministers present here today, hon members, Home Affairs is one of the most important portfolios of any government, especially for our new democracy. Our new democracy faces many challenges. Amongst them is the influx of people visiting South Africa for good reasons, as well as those who have bad intentions. Those who come with the intention to contribute to the development and growth of our economy, by implication, strengthen our new democracy. Some of them come here to share their skills and expertise with our people.

There are also those who see South Africa as fertile ground for all sorts of crime and corruption, who exploit weaknesses in our policing system for their evil intentions. The Department of Home Affairs, like all others, is faced with the task of transforming itself to meet the demands of the new democratic order of our country, to completely change its image of the past from that of being an instrument of oppression to that of being a provider of service to the majority of South Africans.

Among these challenges is that of policing and securing our borders and all points of entry to our country, hence its participation in the cluster on security. The success of our National Crime Prevention Strategy, among other things, depends on the ability of our Department of Home Affairs to control the influx of people and drugs across our borders, especially in the light of the fact that the international crime syndicates have identified South Africa as a gateway to the rest of the world owing to weak control measures at our borders and airports.

Having outlined the challenges facing the Home Affairs department, one is concerned about the shortage of funds in the department to provide for the control of unwanted elements entering our country. Because of the shortage of funds, the department has had to recruit locals in countries where the department has offices to run its foreign operations, thus opening up our visa system to abuse by criminals who want to use our country as a springboard for their criminal activities. Surely, we cannot trust foreigners with the security of our country. Such a system is vulnerable to fraud and corruption. It makes it easy for the criminals to move across our borders.

It is not only in our foreign offices that we face danger. The dramatic increase in foreign visitors is not matched by sufficient numbers of immigration officers to deal with it. As a result of this shortage, the department has had to resort to crisis management at the key entry points of our borders where service delivery was collapsing. To force the already overstressed staff to work overtime and employ casual workers who are not trained properly for the type of work is not a solution. This has great disadvantages for our country as it weakens our alertness and customer care.

The question of refugees is becoming a big problem. Our communities, whether correctly or wrongly, perceive refugees as one of the causes of their unemployment. This is because private business and companies prefer foreigners to their own fellow South Africans as it is easy to pay them low wages and even pay them in kind. They are vulnerable because they are in the country illegally and have no place to stay. This is dangerous for our trade union movement because it is used by employers to undermine unions. One other element that employers like about them is that they do not join unions.

There are those who come in and disappear among our people without trace. These are the most problematic people, because they come into the country with drugs and money, and use the money to buy houses in our townships and suburbs. Some of these houses in the townships are used for drug trafficking. They have the capacity to forge South African identity documents and legalise themselves. One finds their names on waiting lists for houses in our municipalities, or buying South Africans out of their houses. In many instances they are helped in these illegal activities by South Africans because they can pay them.

The only solution to the above problems is the implementation of the Refugees Act of 1998, which, according to the department, was scheduled to be in operation by April 2000. I doubt that the department has been able to meet this timeframe fully, as the director-general highlighted in his briefing to the portfolio committee on the shortfalls in the implementation of this Act. All the provisions envisaged, such as the establishment of refugee reception offices in our major cities - Johannesburg, Cape Town, Durban and Port Elizabeth - cannot be fulfilled without funding. The importance of the implementation of the Act lies in the fact that, for the first time, it allows our Government to put in place a system that makes it possible for Government security agents to separate genuine refugees from criminals.

Excellent service delivery by the Department of Home Affairs is one of the most important ingredients of encouraging growth in tourism, because the first impression that visitors form on their arrival in South Africa is when immigration officers process their passports or visas. This department plays a vital role in the lives of South Africans from birth to death, making sure that each and every point of entry to our country is monitored, and therefore contributing to the realisation and success of our National Crime Prevention Strategy. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Chairperson, hon Minister, all other Ministers present here, the Department of Home Affairs is central to the wellbeing of the country. It covers the life of each individual from the cradle to the grave, and has to do all this with far fewer resources than demands. The citizenry is wondering why the department keeps on moving the goal posts. At one time we are told that this or that document cannot be forged, and after some time we are told that a better one has surfaced. The barcoded identity books were said to be foolproof, then the watermark passport, and even before people could acquire these an identity card was being touted around. The people keep on asking: ``For how long shall we keep changing?’’.

It was possible to issue identity documents to people within a period shorter than two months in the run-up to the 1999 elections. Why can that not be the norm, rather than the exception? Documents should be issued in time while applicants have an interest in them. The work ethic of those manning our offices has to improve. Batho Pele should be innate among the officers.

A burning issue is that of the Government Printing Works. While the printing works generate revenue, the products thereof, mainly the Gazette, are not readily available to the average South African because of the location of the printing works. People are hard put to it to access these publications. I say to the Minister that it would also be interesting if the nation could be informed about how much is realised in the sales of postage stamps which the printing works manufacture for the Democratic Republic of Congo and the Kingdom of Lesotho.

The Government Printing Works in Pretoria does printing for provinces, including the Eastern Cape, yet the Umtata Printing Works in that province continues to siphon off R10,5 million in salaries. The question remains: Why keep the plant if it is such a liability? While the 86,37% increase in the budget for services to citizens and the 8% increase for administration are most welcome, the reduction of 36,9% for the IEC is shocking when taking into account that the coming elections are far more complex than last year’s, as even the Minister testified yesterday. It is not surprising, therefore, that the hon the Minister could say to the lecturer who lectured them that he could understand the English spoken, but not the subject that was being delivered.

By inference, voter education has to be mounted, and all this can be done with funds made available by the IEC. Therefore there is a need for the IEC funds or its share of the Vote to be increased. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Mr Chairperson and hon members, I would like to say on the whole that I am very grateful for the very constructive responses that members have actually made during the debate on the Vote of my department.

First of all, with your permission, sir, I would like to read a statement from the Independent Electoral Commission, in view of the fact that there has been so much controversy in the media about the date of the election. It reads as follows:

According to the Constitution, local government elections must be held during the 90-day period between 1 November 2000 and 29 January 2001. No date has yet been set and the period is not the most suitable for the holding of elections. Nevertheless, the commission is obliged to plan and prepare for these elections to be called for any date during this period, thus also for the earlier possible date being 1 November 2000.

The commission has informed me that the amount of R450 million allocated to it for the 2000-01 financial year is inadequate, but that the final allocation will primarily depend on the result of a technical costing exercise jointly undertaken by officials of the Department of State Expenditure and of the commission. The commission has experienced a diligent and responsible approach from the Government’s side in this matter and has no reason to believe that it will not eventually be adequately funded.

Early finalities are, however, essential for proper planning. Because the Local Government: Municipal Electoral Bill has not been enacted and regulations thereunder promulgated, training of electoral officials cannot begin in earnest, planning and preparations for elections cannot be finalised with confidence and parties cannot adequately plan and prepare for the nomination of candidates for the registration of local parties for electioneering and for voter education. I therefore express my sincere appreciation for measures approved by the Deputy President and the portfolio committee to fast-track the passing of the Bill. I thank the hon the President for that.

Concerning responses to the speech I delivered yesterday, I wish to refer to the hon Mr Sikakane’s statement when he referred to what he called the international practice of giving blank permanent residence to identified groupings of foreigners. The hon member then suggested that the department of Health should take the initiative in this connection with regard to certain medical practitioners.

Let me start off by indicating that this is clearly not a matter for the Department of Health. It is an alien control issue and therefore falls within the functional sphere of Home Affairs. Moreover, I know of no country in the world that operates without any requirements pertaining to accepting foreigners as temporary or permanent residents. Even underpopulated countries that deliberately aim to attract immigrants follow requirements based on norms derived from their identified needs in the fields of specialised skills, scarce labour, capital investment and so on.

At the very minimum, certain individuals are technically excluded on the grounds of having criminal records, contagious diseases, and so forth. International practice therefore entitles governments to formulate criteria on the admittance of migrants. In our own case, although requirements and norms might have changed over the years, South Africa has consistently applied requirements in respect of foreigners entering the Republic, as contained in the Aliens Control Act of 1991. It should be considered, though, that the implementation of migration control is not a simplistic matter. Apart from the persistent impartial application of set policies that is required and the corruptive temptations often experienced in this process, there is also the human rights dimension which determines action in a democratic society such as ours. This necessitates the deployment of a particular calibre of migration official and well-trained personnel, able consistently to apply policy and take well- considered, consistent decisions, often under very trying circumstances.

In our situation of immense migratory pressure, the adequate numerical staffing of the migration control unit is imperative, although this department has displayed remarkable creativity in this regard, and the commitment and diligence of our migration officers should generally be commended. Inadequate resourcing has inhibited us from achieving excellence in the performance of this task.

Mr Waters yesterday said various things concerning inadequate funding. I would like to say that his proposal, that at least a certain proportion of the income generated by Home Affairs be ploughed back, is innovative and should be noted by State Expenditure. It also entails the introduction of a business-type manner that would significantly enhance both efficiency and performance.

The minimalist planning and budgeting approach that the department has to follow, out of necessity, currently substantially inhibits this, illustrated, for instance, in the continual insufficient personnel expenditure allocations to the department. As a result, an effective vacancy state of 25,9% existed on suitably filled posts in relation to the approved establishment as of 31 December 1999.

I found extremely strange the suggestion by the hon member Mr Waters that I should overrule the migration selection boards, which are statutory bodies, in order to expedite the conclusion of applications, especially if one views it against the professed democratic ethos of the DP. Correct me if I am wrong, but my own recollection is that the DP has in the past consistently championed independent and objective decision-making pertaining to such matters. The fact that my department is funding these boards does not justify me steamrollering them or even influencing or manipulating their decisions. In fact, I cannot veto their decisions. I am a democrat and can therefore simply not do that. Why do we have them if I were to continuously jeopardise the rationale for their inception?

I appeal to the migration unit to speed up the processes, yes, but I appreciate the fact that they have only been operative for two weeks now. It would therefore be totally unfair towards them to expect that they instantly wipe out accumulated backlogs. I do expect the immigration selection boards to perform their duties with the thoroughness required by law.

Then he spoke also about losing court cases. I grant the opposition the pleasure of gloating about the known recent successful court applications going against the department, mostly on migration-related issues. However, they should take into account the fact that my department is only fulfilling its obligations to apply legislation which is enacted by this Parliament.

It is true that the development of the Aliens Control Act was incremental over time and the migratory pressure mounted and caused loopholes and inadequacies. That is precisely why I initiated the White Paper process and have published the draft migration control Bill for comments and inputs from all interested parties. While we have comprehensively addressed all areas of this issue, I cannot set precedents by exceptions. I respect the independence of the judiciary, but I am also obliged to uphold the laws made by hon members here in this House, for as long as they remain on the Statute Book. My department is committed to doing this in a sensitive and transparent way, and that is why I have also instructed that the applicable consular codes be made public as soon as possible.

Members are sort of mystified by things that Mr Waters said yesterday. I would like to take them into my confidence so that they understand why he made the statements that he made about me yesterday. Mr Waters appeared on E-tv and said that I run my department like a church bazaar. [Laughter.] Well, I can be very acerbic too. I do not think there is anyone who can beat me in making acerbic comments. What happened then is that I approached the leader of the party, because I have committed myself to the revolution of goodwill. I believe that in this House we must disagree without being disagreeable and, therefore, I do not think that we should be disagreeable and abusive while we criticise one another. The hon member also went to the press and said that when he makes appointments with me I never give him appointments. I actually had to return on Sunday to accommodate the appointment he had made with me for three o’clock on Monday. Just before the appointment was due I received a fax and a phone call from him saying that, in fact, he could not make it. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order!

The MINISTER: I also received this memorandum from one of my officials.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Minister, your speaking time has expired. [Interjections.] [Applause.] Order! I will give you 40 seconds to finish up, if you want it.

Debate concluded.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 6 - Correctional Services:

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Mr Chairman, I think what I will do in my address is to say that maybe we need to bring a different dimension and perspective in order to place the department correctly in terms of where we want it to be.

Prison systems the world over continue to resemble a cruel choice, which is perpetually imposed by societies on themselves as poor socioeconomic conditions spawn crime and criminality of elusive proportions. The choice of some governments to place prison matters as the lowest priority on their agenda simply because prisons house those who have offended society in various ways of conduct is a refusal on the part of authorities to come to terms with reality. In fact, prisons have long been viewed by the state as both a symbolic and functional answer to the crisis of control which exists outside prison walls. Similarly, the public’s general attitude and occasional interest in prisons is one of the least concern, usually generated by sensational treatment of the subject in the press, otherwise it - that is society - is shockingly ignorant on the whole subject.

The average person out there does not view the correctional services system as a dynamic institution subjected to ever-changing demands and challenges. Prison is seen as an institution that is operated by routine, things being the same day after day, month after month, year after year, with faces changing often, but the system changing very slowly. As members of the public, we are all, in varying degrees, guilty of perpetuating this misconception of the prison system. This, I submit, is as a result of years and years of social conditioning. The greatest threat to the safety of our communities emanates from the widespread socioeconomic inequalities of South African society as a whole and is, in my opinion, a direct result of the legacy of the apartheid system.

It is therefore no coincidence that the overwhelming majority of offenders in the prison system come from the previously disadvantaged groups, are of little value in the labour market and are seen as socially and economically inadequate. Our situation in South Africa is such that imprisonment has the function of diverting public attention from the pressing need of appropriately channelling public resources to correct the imbalances of the past.

In this respect the media, which constitutes a selective filter between those who are imprisoned and public opinion, has ably supported the argument that the greatest threat to the safety of the community emanates from the criminal activities of the individual. Our attitude as members of the public is therefore largely a result of this social conditioning. Where there exists greater communication and understanding between prisoners and the public, the processes of stigmatisation and labelling are less swift, automatic and certain.

The challenge facing us as elected representatives of the people is to establish and maintain meaningful contact with prisoners. This I consider to be imperative in our quest to attain the desired fundamental transformation of our correctional services system. The process of contact will indeed lead to the realisation that prisoners are comparable to ourselves in many ways, rather than being society’s outcasts.

In view of the arguments I have thus far presented, it is not difficult to understand why the media is showing so little interest, if any, in the contribution made by my department as an integral part of this country. The media has not played any meaningful role in helping to highlight the problems and the real crisis facing the Department of Correctional Services. Instead, the media has embarked on a negative campaign against my department, taking every opportunity to portray us as a useless department, even going so far as to challenge our right to exist as a distinct department. In fact, it was even stated in one editorial comment that the privatisation of Correctional Services was probably a viable option of achieving the desired transformation of the prison system.

No similar call to privatise the courts, prosecutions or police has been made by the media, this despite well-known problems in those components. Of course imprisonment, or any correctional activity, as is the case with the other core elements of the criminal justice system, is fundamental to the state’s legitimate right to punish, as stated by Mark Finland in his book The State of the Prison - A Critique of Reform. He says imprisonment is the central manifestation of the punishment function of the state.

I am indeed the first to consider that every escape from prison is one too many and that even the recent achievements of the department to drastically reduce the number of escapes from prison, following my direct personal intervention to hold anti-escape workshops in the nine provinces, is not enough. We can never be satisfied until we have completely eradicated this problem from our system. The sensational reporting of widespread corruption in my department by the media has been noted. As I have already pointed out, the media has had some shortcomings in raising public awareness to the real underlying problems facing our correctional system. Surely the public has a right to know that there is corruption in Correctional Services, but, of course, this is not the only point. What the public also needs to know is what the department is doing to combat corruption within its ranks and whether or not it is winning the fight against corruption. A responsible and supportive media, I believe, will at least try to show some level of concern by reporting in a balanced manner.

I must say that the adversarial relationship and attitude displayed by some of our media towards Correctional Services is, indeed, a complicated story on its own. However, I would also like to commend those members of the media whose investigative journalism and commitment to get to the bottom of issues and the truth, assisted us in uncovering some of the irregularities and corrupt practices in the department, which led me to initiate a full- scale investigation. I would be failing in my responsibility as the Minister concerned if I did not use this opportunity to respond to the statements which were made by a certain senior Government official at the 14 April 2000 joint sitting of the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services and the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration, accusing the state of having lost complete control of Correctional Services. These statements were not only unfounded and baseless, but were also potentially very dangerous for the security of our Correctional Services officers in prisons as well as the internal security of the state as a whole.

It is not appropriate for a senior Government official to take up a public platform and openly criticise the Government, especially on a sensitive, internal state security matter such as this one. This is more so the case when the said official has his facts completely mixed up. Please allow me to put this matter into proper perspective. When I took over as Minister of Correctional Services in 1998, several groupings and individuals within my department approached me with allegations of corruption in financial management which, incidentally, had been reported in the media, as I said, earlier on. This was directed against the former commissioner and other senior officials. I then initiated an investigation into the allegations, through the Auditor-General. I was supported by the then Deputy President Mbeki and Dr Zola Skweyiya, who was the Minister for the Public Service and Administration. The findings of the Auditor-General were presented to the Joint Standing Committee on Public Accounts and thereafter the department was called in to answer.

This process eventually led to the resignation of the former commissioner. Because of many unanswered questions still remaining, I felt that further probing of the department, as a whole, was necessary. I wish to put it clearly to the House that it is my conviction and determination to promote a culture of clean administration. I subsequently approached the Minister for the Public Service and Administration for a possible further inquiry by her department.

This process led to the establishment of a management audit of my department, which culminated in a report to the President, Minister Fraser- Moleketi and me, dated 18 February 2000. In this process, the management audit came across new allegations of corruption and maladministration in the department. As a result of these further allegations, I then called for a second phase of the investigation to probe further into the allegations and to get concrete evidence, which we would then be able to use to take the necessary disciplinary steps against those implicated.

At no point in this process did I lose control of the administration of my department, and I do not think the state lost any control at all either. As far as I am concerned, this constitutes a clean process of trying to deal with the problems. The President was also kept fully informed and was, at some stage, even invited by me to come to address the entire senior management staff of my department, to motivate them into giving their fullest support and co-operation to the investigations.

Furthermore, it can be unequivocally stated that the department has not lost the fight against corruption, as can be shown from the following province-by-province statistics on disciplinary steps taken against corruption. For instance, in the Northern Cape we had 14 prosecutions, 11 cases of theft and robbery, and there was one dismissal. In the North West, we had 14 prosecutions, five cases of theft and two cases where officials assisted prisoners to escape, and six dismissals. In Gauteng, we had 51 prosecutions, eight cases of theft, two cases where officials assisted prisoners to escape, and seven dismissals. In the Northern Province, we had seven prosecutions, and one case of receiving and claiming money from a prisoner. The person was acquitted because he was not found guilty. In the Western Cape, we had 39 prosecutions, six cases of theft …

Mr T D LEE: [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Donald Lee, you will have your time at the podium.

The MINISTER: Chairperson, in the Western Cape there were 39 prosecutions, six cases of theft and six persons were dismissed. In the Free State there were five prosecutions, three cases of possession of dagga, and nobody was dismissed. Mpumalanga had 16 prosecutions, five cases of theft, three cases of fraud and seven persons were dismissed. In KwaZulu-Natal there were 18 prosecutions, four cases of theft, two cases of rape and six persons were dismissed. The Eastern Cape had nine prosecutions, two cases of theft, two cases of possession of dagga and three persons were dismissed.

The national figures are as follows. We had an overall total of 183 prosecutions, including the following serious offences: 30 cases of theft, 11 cases of theft and robbery, five cases of possession of dagga, four cases where officials assisted prisoners to escape, three cases of fraud, two cases of rape, and one case of receiving and claiming money from a prisoner. In all, 36 persons were dismissed.

These records alone already paint a different picture altogether. There is, therefore, no doubt in my mind that as soon as the current investigations by the Public Service Commission and the Department of the Public Service and Administration are concluded, and a final report has been tabled, corruption and maladministration in the Department of Correctional Services will be dealt a heavy blow. I would, however, caution strongly against any misplaced ideas which might be existing out there that the fight against corruption in our prison system is near completion.

It is necessary that the current corruption in our prison system is understood within the historical context of the South African prison system. The past era, briefly described by Prof Dirk Van Zyl Smit, who is also a member of the National Council for Correctional Services, should inspire a reflection on how the past could also affect the present. He said:

The history of the South African prison system in the last 20 years is a history of both change and continuity. On the one hand, there is the history of a system which formed part of the state apparatus of a minority government which applied explicitly racial criteria. The prison system itself was governed by a highly restrictive legal regime, which included explicitly racist elements. Change in this regard has been significant and on occasion has anticipated change in the national political structure.

Surely these circumstances must of necessity give rise to a variety of social, economic and political factors. At times these factors left managers and administrators to their own devices, positive and negative, where the legacy of more than five decades of misrule continue to hold hostage a mere six years of political emancipation and the quest to democratise.

As a department, overcrowding remains our greatest challenge. It is threatening to undermine our efforts to comply with international norms and standards regarding the separation of categories of prisoners, humane detention, provision of basic needs, provision of comprehensive primary health care, rehabilitation of offenders, safe custody and the raising and maintaining of staff morale.

Prison must not be viewed in isolation, but must be understood as part of a larger political, economic and social order which sustains and is itself supported by prison. In fact, the correctional system itself is an integral part of an even larger system, namely the so-called criminal justice system. South Africa is not an exception in its failure to recognise that correctional services are an integral part of governance.

It was the timely visionary intervention of President Thabo Mbeki in June last year to establish ministerial clusters which greatly tempered the counterproductive, isolationist approaches to crime prevention of the core departments which form the criminal justice system. The criminal justice system is constituted by four core departments, that is, Correctional Services, the SA Police Service, Justice and Welfare.

The processes taking place in each of these co-components are interdependent and often overlapping. The problems facing the Department of Correctional Services cannot be viewed in isolation from what is happening in other components. One of the main objectives of the crime prevention, justice and safety cluster is to ensure the protection of the public. This objective can only be truly realised through the development of an integrated approach which takes into account all the processes and subprocesses involved in each of the core components, conceptually woven together to produce an interdepartmental strategy for crime prevention.

There is no doubt in my mind that the clustering of Miniseries has been the single most important step forward in bringing about an end to the isolation of Correctional Services, and to begin to understand and recognise it as an integral part of governance of this country. The real challenge now facing the cluster is the ability of its members to work together and put aside unnecessary interdepartmental competitions to achieve the service-delivery levels expected by the public.

Already, through the clustering approach, we have been able to formulate and embark on the following strategies to combat overcrowding in prisons: Multisectoral teams to identify blockages and devise solutions to the awaiting-trial prisoner problem; early release of offenders who have committed less serious crimes after they have served a certain minimum period of their sentence; and alternatives to imprisonment, which will involve serving the sentence within the community under supervision.

Electronic monitoring has been identified as a system that will strengthen and enhance community corrections. Another solution is the provision of additional prison accommodation through a system of partnerships with the private sector. Other projects currently being developed and introduced within the crime prevention, justice and safety cluster from which the department will greatly benefit are the following: The inmate tracking system, the criminal history record information system, and the event notification system.

With regard to the management of offenders, I can share with the House that the rehabilitative and development services of offenders are at present adversely affected by overpopulation in our prisons and a shortage of human resources. A very important aspect to note is the alarming number of unsentenced prisoners in our custody, which at the end of last month stood at 62 952, constituting approximately 40% of the total number of prisoners in our facilities. From February 1995 to February of this year, the number of unsentenced prisoners increased by 158%, compared to the increase of about 15% for sentenced prisoners over the same period.

The correctional services system has a major responsibility to invest in the training of prisoners in various skills. This is aimed at developing prisoners to gain market-related skills, to increase their employment potential in the labour market, and to enhance successful prisoner rehabilitation. The fields of training includes formal vocational, basic occupational and business skills training. Prisoners use their skills to gain experience and promote self-sufficiency within the prison system.

Plans to increase self-sufficiency levels have been put in place, and these include, inter alia, the completion of two broiler projects in the Eastern Cape and the Western Cape, which will increase our current chicken production by 100%. The department also derives income from the sale of agricultural workshop products and charging for prison labour. Income generated is deposited with the Exchequer, and the projected income for the current financial year is R83,2 million.

It is important to note that section 133 of the Correctional Services Act of 1998 requires all state departments, as far as possible, to purchase articles and supplies manufactured by prison labour from the Department of Correctional Services at fair and reasonable prices as may be determined by the Minister of Finance. I, therefore, invite my colleagues to encourage their departments to purchase products from our facilities. In case they think those articles are inferior, the President has also set an example in this regard by furnishing his office in his official residence in Pretoria with furniture manufactured in our workshops.

The battle against HIV/Aids has been highlighted and given priority as one of our main-offender programmes in the department. We recently introduced an extensive weekly awareness campaign in prisons as one of our strategies to combat the spread of HIV infection amongst inmates and staff. Furthermore, a five-year departmental HIV/Aids action plan has been submitted to the national Department of Health for inclusion in the national HIV/Aids plan. In addition, a comprehensive workplace HIV/Aids policy was also adopted in the departmental bargaining chamber, in consultation with the stakeholders.

The department will, in the near future, introduce an empowerment programme. The programme will, first and foremost, entail the participation of victims in parole board hearings, and the development of a mediation protocol. It will also focus on the proper training of staff to prevent the victimisation of prisoners.

The department regards all offenders under the age of 21 as an extremely vulnerable category of prisoners. There are at present 12 juvenile correctional development centres countrywide, including Ekuseni Youth Development Centre, which is now being operated directly by the department following the expiry of the contract between the department and the Joint Education Trust on 31 December last year. Despite the attempts to completely remove juveniles from the prison system, there are special circumstances where these offenders must be sentenced to adult correctional facilities. In these cases we provide for separate facilities from the main prison population, education, rehabilitation and the development of these young offenders.

Juvenile correctional development involves needs-based psychological programmes which incorporate individual, group or family therapy. The emphasis is on providing social work services aimed at equipping young offenders with life skills through self-empowerment, sex education, and alcohol and drug abuse programmes. Education and training programmes are focused on the promotion and development of leadership qualities. In addition to the normal education and training programmes, juveniles are given religious instruction encompassing the various church denominations and faiths.

The personal safety and development of infants and their mothers in prison will remain a priority for the department. The primary focus of the department will continue to be on the provision of appropriate infrastructure such as day care centres and separate suitably equipped detention facilities for mothers.

Electronic monitoring to enhance and promote community correction as a viable alternative to incarceration for less serious offences has been tested and found to be a viable option for the South African situation. Electronic monitoring refers to electronic technology which is applied to assist community-correction personnel in determining whether an offender placed under home confinement is complying with the conditions of his or her confinement, as set by the court or correctional services commissioner. On 31 March 1999 the Cabinet approved the implementation of electronic monitoring, EM, countrywide.

After a lengthy tender process, on 24 December 1999 the state tender board awarded an electronic monitoring tender to a consultant to assist the department with the formulation of technical specifications and business for the implementation of the system countrywide. The consultant commenced work on 1 February 2000 and has submitted the first report for the first phase of the project, which is currently being evaluated by the department in accordance with its plans. It is expected that electronic monitoring will be operational countrywide by the end of this financial year. We view this project as a fundamental step forward in the transformation of our correctional system. The delays in its implementation so far - which, I know, has caused a lot of concern for members of the portfolio committee - must in the future be avoided at all costs.

The Correctional Services Act of 1998 provides for a new system of parole boards which comprise full-time ex officio members from the Department of Justice and the SA Police Service, as well as members of the community. The implementation of this new parole board system has been delayed owing to budgetary constraints experienced by the two respective departments regarding the appointment of full-time officials to service it. It was subsequently agreed by Correctional Services and the two departments concerned that even though it is desirable to have full-time ex officio members serving on the Correctional Supervision and Parole Boards, it would not be cost-effective to do so. It was, therefore, decided that members of the Department of Justice and the SA Police Service would be co-opted to participate in the boards on an ad hoc basis, depending on the merits of the case. A suitable amendment of the Act to accommodate this agreement will be presented to Cabinet in the immediate future.

I intend introducing special poverty relief programmes through the utilisation of prison labour and skills during the course of this financial year. This will include, inter alia, the donation of food supplies to schools, old age homes, hospitals and other similar institutions. In this regard, we will endeavour to establish close partnerships with the relevant nongovernmental organisations involved in poverty relief. We will also make our contribution to disaster relief and infrastructure rehabilitation.

The phasing in of the new unit management system in prisons is going smoothly. This new system of prison management is a fundamental transformation of our prison system, in line with international best practice, to move away from the prison-focused management approach to a prisoner-focused management method. The new system provides for the management of prisoners in smaller units, with greater interaction between correctional officials and prisoners. Extensive training workshops are currently under way in the various provinces to prepare prison staff for unit management. It is envisaged that the system will be implemented in 27 prisons around the country during the course of this year. All the recently built prisons have been designed along the lines of unit management.

A public-private partnership programme, better known as the Asset Procurement and Operating Partnership System, Apops, has been implemented. I am glad to say that some of the partners who are involved in this are with us in this House today. With the able assistance of the Department of Public Works on 24 March 2000, I signed a concession agreement with Bloemfontein Correctional Contract (Pty) Ltd - the Ikhwezi consortium - for the construction of the first Apops prison in South Africa in Bloemfontein, which will accommodate 3 028 prisoners. Construction work started on 3 April 2000, and it is due for completion on 1 October 2001. I am also happy to announce that on 8 May 2000 I signed the proclamation of this prison in terms of section 5 of the Correctional Services Act of 1998. The prison will be known as Mangaung Maximum Security Prison. We are also in the process of finalising negotiations for a concession contract with SA Custodial Services for a second Apops prison in Louis Trichardt, which will accommodate 2 960 prisoners.

It is important to mention that in order to provide for the financing of Apops projects within the MTEF budgetary allocations, financed posts of 4 404 and 1 424 will be frozen in budgetary terms in the 2001-02 and 2002-03 financial years respectively. This will result in a declining financed personnel establishment of 39 534, 35 936 and 34 512 from those financial years respectively. This freezing of posts will result in a very high correctional-official-prisoner ratio which will adversely affect the management of the department in the following specific areas: Firstly, the implementation of the new unit management system; secondly, the prevention of escapes by prisoners, which will impact on the safety of the community; thirdly, the security of correctional officials and prisoners; and, fourthly, service delivery.

To further address the problem of overcrowding in our prisons, we opened a new youth development centre, Emthongeni, near Pretoria, with a capacity of 640 beds. In addition, we will also be completing the construction of three more prisons in the near future in Kokstad, with a capacity of 1 440 beds, Empangeni, with 1 392 beds, and Durban, our first ever release centre, with 650 beds.

I must also hasten to say that it is not as simple as that. I know people are saying that we have prisons at Empangeni and Kokstad and are asking why they are not being opened. It is not as simple as all that, because Public Works has to build the prison, complete everything according to specifications, and hand over that prison to us for opening. As it is, when it comes to Empangeni and Kokstad, we are still dealing with those problems in the process. Therefore it is not really incumbent on Correctional Services to open a facility simply because it is there and one can see the physical structure. There is a process involved.

As part of the offender rehabilitation programme in prisons, we intend engaging the Department of Public Works regarding the utilisation of prison labour for the maintenance of our prisons. This will necessitate an interdepartmental budget transfer of funds from Public Works to Correctional Services. Owing to the demands placed by overcrowding on our facilities and the fact that many of our prisons are old, there is a serious state of disrepair at a number of our facilities. Our experience has taught us that we are at the end of the priority list of Public Works maintenance services, hence the request to do the repairs ourselves.

The present inhumane conditions that many of our prisoners are subjected to on a daily basis cannot be allowed to continue. The newly appointed Inspecting Judge, Justice Fagan - who I believe is also in the gallery - has stated that the Office of the Judicial Inspectorate views the impending crisis that exists in many of our prisons, owing to overcrowding, as a matter of extreme urgency and has placed it at the top of its list of priorities. The appointment of independent prison visitors in terms of the Correctional Services Act of 1998 by the Inspecting Judge to deal with the daily complaints of prisoners has commenced. In fact, the report was tabled this week.

Towards the end of 1998 I appointed a National Council for Correctional Services in terms of the relevant provision of our Act, under the chairmanship of Justice Kumleben and deputy chairman Justice Desai. The council acts as an advisory body to advise the Minister of Correctional Services on all matters in connection with Correctional Services. The council’s views must be sought on all major policy issues affecting my portfolio. The council is, inter alia, currently tasked with the following assignments: The implementation of the Correctional Services Act of 1998, in respect of certain phases and chapters; the functioning of the Office of the Inspecting Judge; the status and jurisdiction of the internal anticorruption unit; the prison system and overcrowding; involvement of prisoners in productive work; and incarceration of prisoners sentenced by the international tribunal for Rwanda.

Finally, as stated by the President in the opening remarks of his state of the nation address at the opening of Parliament, at no other point in our history as a nation have we ever been as well placed as we are today to take decisive steps forward towards the creation of a humane and people- centred society. I therefore challenge every God-fearing South African to stand up and join the fight to challenge the prejudices, stereotypes which are used against prisoners, and the prison system in general.

The time has come for us to introduce the spirit of ubuntu and our Africanness into the correctional system. Our motto in the department is that we serve with pride. Let us all participate in the transformation of the Correctional Services system to give real meaning to this motto to motivate correctional officials to challenge their calling daily. I want to reassure every South African that the fight against corruption in our department will still be intensified. I am confident that the ongoing investigations will play a major part towards the establishment of a culture of clean administration in the Department of Correctional Services.

In conclusion, I also welcome the deployment of the director-general of the Gauteng provincial administration, Mr Lulamile Mbete, who is here, by the President as the new Commissioner of Correctional Services. This introduction of fresh blood into the department will surely bring about the necessary enthusiasm and open-mindedness much needed in tackling the problems and challenges facing the department.

I will be announcing a management plan in the near future to deal with the implementation of the recommendations of the management audit report dated 18 February 2000. The new commissioner and his management team are busy with the final touches to this plan, and I am sure they will also introduce that to the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services.

Last but not least, I take this opportunity to extend my heart-felt gratitude to Commissioner Thami Nxumalo who was an acting commissioner for a while, and all the loyal and hard-working members of the Department of Correctional Services for the diligent execution of their duties during the difficult period of the past months. My sincere thanks and appreciation also goes to members of my portfolio committee, members of the National Council for Correctional Services, the Inspecting Judge and his support staff. [Applause.]

Mrs R N CAPA: Chairperson and hon members, a Budget debate enables us to engage with issues of strategic planning in order to ensure better service delivery.

As we move towards reforming the Budget process, we, as members of Parliament, are able to participate more meaningfully in the Budget process and to strengthen our oversight roles. We have seen many changes in our country in the past five years, but the transformation of our Correctional Services is one of our most demanding challenges.

The appointment of the hon Justice J J Fagan as Inspecting Judge is a significant step towards solving the problems facing our prison population. I congratulate Judge Fagan and Rev Lulamile Mbete, who has been appointed as Commissioner of Correctional Services and has surely arrived at a time when he will take the department through the transformation process.

I can assure the people of our country that this Government has not lost control over the Correctional Services department. Yes, there are problems and challenges, but there are solutions and we are ensuring that these solutions are being implemented. Our President has said that at no other point have we ever been as well placed as we are today to take decisive steps forward towards the creation of a humane and people-centred society. Likewise, the Department of Correctional Services has at no other time been in a position to take forward steps towards transformation in order to ensure better service delivery.

Our Constitution is human rights based. The Government came with a dedication to human rights. And we need to build a prison system that is based on human rights - the rights of prisoners and the rights of the wider population. The purpose of incarceration is not simply to make life as miserable as possible for criminals, it is not simply to remove wrongdoers from society or to punish them, but to rehabilitate them. Many of those who spend time in prison are the most unfortunate of society. They have been denied the chances that so many of us take for granted. They have been denied proper education, sound values, and the opportunity to make a place for themselves in society. We must ensure that they are not damned forever to live as criminals outside the community and society.

In 1998, we passed legislation, the Correctional Services Act, to achieve a humane correctional services culture and to enable us to achieve our goals. We know that it is impossible to build our way out of the prison problems. Our strategy therefore must be threefold: Firstly, to improve the prison capacity; secondly, to keep out of prison those who should not be there, that is, petty criminals and awaiting-trial prisoners; and, thirdly, to find alternative sentence programmes for those who can benefit from more creative punishment methods.

Recently, we saw the case of a man who was allowed leave from prison to see his dying lover only after he was about to take the department to court. What was significant about this incident was the statement made by the Correctional Services spokesperson, Johan Pienaar. When asked if the refusal to allow a prisoner to visit his dying partner did not violate the Constitution, he said: ``Prison policy and the Constitution are two very different things. We stick to prison policy.’’ I have news for Mr Pienaar. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. And we will ensure that our prisons are run according to our Constitution, as much as we will ensure that all state institutions are in accordance with our Constitution. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, you are making a serious noise on this side. Could you please lower your voices. I do not want to call you by name.

Mrs R N CAPA: Mr Chairperson, we need to think creatively and imaginatively in finding ways of managing our limited resources more effectively. We need to deal with the issue of escapes and warder collusion and to ensure that sentences are served as intended by the courts.

Prison overcrowding is not a problem exclusive to this country. Almost all developed countries are grappling with these problems. But our situation is serious. Pollsmoor prison exceeds its capacity by 250%. Lusikisiki prison, in the Eastern Cape, is overcrowded by 206%. These are serious problems. This overcrowding undermines security, increases the risks of riots, and promotes internal conflicts. But, more seriously, this overcrowding makes rehabilitation a pipe-dream, and it is promoting the spread of HIV/Aids. We need to have urgent solutions to these problems, to put our heads together and come up with realistic strategies to deal with these problems. We, as a committee, need to be vigilant that the policies of Government are being implemented within timeframes set by the Minister.

The budget for Correctional Services has been increased since 1995, and will continue to be increased in terms of the MTEF. But what is more important is that we, as a society, must be engaged with the issues of solving the challenges that face the entire criminal justice system. Problems are not solved by merely throwing money at them. The problems that face our country are more complex than that.

We, as the committee, will be relentless in our oversight of the process of transformation. We commit ourselves to using our energies and whatever skills we might have to building a correctional services system that is rehabilitative, caring, productive and contributes to building a better South Africa. I also want to say that I wish the officials of the Department of Correctional Services would be more transparent and loyal to the portfolio committee than they are to the media. I say this because at one stage we requested some information from the department about the allegations that Mr Terre’Blanche was receiving preferential treatment.

We did speak to the acting commissioner, who gave us the correct information and promised that we would receive a written document on that. But what we received was completely different from what the acting commissioner had told us. And what we were given was also completely different to what was given to the media. Therefore this is very disappointing and we would like to see it coming to a stop. [Applause.]

Adv H C SCHMIDT: Chairperson and colleagues, the DP would like to welcome the new national commissioner for the Department of Correctional Services, Mr Mbete, who was appointed by the President last week. We sincerely hope that he will bring the necessary expertise and driving force for the required dramatic turnabout which this department urgently needs in order to function effectively.

It is on this note that the DP welcomes the 15,65% increase in the allocated budget. However, the irony is that, despite this increase, this budget only provides for the incarceration of 150 000 prisoners, 17 000 short of the number of prisoners being held in our prisons at present. It is inconceivable that the budget could be provided on the basis of an expected and definite shortfall existing and known at present. Two of the most important programmes relating to offenders, namely the care of offenders and the reintegration of these offenders into the community, have received the lowest increases proportionate to the other main functions.

Although the community correction budget allocation has been increased by approximately 55%, the budget allocation for this subprogramme as a percentage of the budget still falls short of the required budget allocation. Only through rehabilitation and the successful reintegration of offenders into the community, will the vicious criminal cycle in which we find ourselves be interrupted.

Despite a projected income of R2,9 million to be generated from production workshops such as those established at the Pretoria Central and Boksburg prisons, where hundreds of prisoners participate as part of a rehabilitation programme, ensuring an income to the department, a figure of R33 million was allocated for designing a new uniform. This is despite a Cabinet decision on 1 April 1996 to demilitarise. In contradiction to the Cabinet decision the old uniforms are still in use and a possible retention of the old uniforms with cosmetic changes at a price of R18,75 million is still being considered. Furthermore, 28 companies were awarded tenders according to the state tender board director, despite the existing facilities within South African prisons and the established practice of production in the past of these uniforms at a Witbank prison.

Despite various conflicting reports it appears that the electronic monitoring project is still not in a position to be implemented. This is despite the fact that the project was initially undertaken by the department during the period September 1996 to August 1997. It is still unacceptable that no programme have thus far been implemented, as well as that no basis exists on which possible new systems, possibly linked to a satellite system, can be implemented. It is furthermore inconceivable why the project was started at the time. As a research project, it was based on the availability of, firstly, telephones and, secondly, electricity, facilities which, to the dismay of us all and by the admission of the department itself, do not exist within all rural areas or all squatter camps, therefore rendering this project useless.

With the totally inadequate amount of R4,6 million allocated towards the imposition of public-private partnerships, it appears that the department has realised that the privatisation of certain functions within the department is financially and effectively better managed by the private sector. The allocation of two 25-year contracts for the building of privately run prisons in Bloemfontein and Louis Trichardt appears to be at the infancy stage, with the contract for the Bloemfontein prison only having been concluded as recently as 24 March 2000. On the basis, however, that the awarding of these two contracts forms the basis of further contracts to be awarded to the private sector, as well as the privatisation of existing prisons, these steps are welcomed.

With regard to corruption, it is fundamentally alarming that 366 reports have been received of warders who allegedly stole money from prisoners, by means of either - and hon members should listen to this - their cash and/or their judicial fines, withdrawing cash from prisoners’ banking accounts, assault on prisoners, theft of prisoners’ assets or, not least, fraudulent moneylending schemes between officials and prisoners. It is only by the strict manner in which the department should deal with these examples of misconduct that basic law and order, as well as discipline, will be restored. [Interjections.]

Approximately R35 million of the budget for the 1999-2000 financial year will be unspent and rolled over to the 2000-01 financial year. Of this amount, R27 million is earmarked under personnel expenditure for the financing of salaries and merit awards to personnel which could not be finalised during the 1999-2000 financial year. It is alarming to note that despite hardworking personnel being entitled to their due, they have not yet received such.

According to Love Life, an organisation organised under the auspices of the hon the President’s wife, more than 4 million South Africans - approximately 10% of the population - are HIV-positive. Despite these accepted figures, the department indicated that, as at 29 February 2000, only 2 881 prisoners were infected with HIV/Aids, a mere 1,7%! A legal opinion should be obtained concerning the constitutionality of possible mandatory testing of all prisoners, owing to the inherent and unique circumstances within prisons, to establish whether they are indeed infected with HIV/Aids, and whether uninfected prisoners will be entitled, at least at their own request, to be kept separate from those infected with HIV/Aids.

The deficit which existed in the 1999-2000 financial year was rectified by means of an undue increase in the allocation of R57,2 million to the administration division in accordance with the Adjustments Appropriation Act of last year. It appears that the department will this year have to rectify the foreseen deficit once again by means of the Adjustments Appropriation Bill later this year.

Of most significance is the management audit of the Department of Correctional Services, which was conducted by the Department of the Public Service and Administration. On basically every important line function major criticism was levelled at the department, including the lack of proper planning and budgeting, the overcentralisation of many of its functions, the lack of any official service delivery improvement plan, the overcentralisation of control, and the deeply felt sense of unfairness throughout the organisation, thought to be riddled with favouritism, cronyism and corruption, coming from the officials themselves. Add to this the lack of proper correctional service management and the rapid change in the disciplinary standards of the service due to demilitarisation and affirmative action, and we have a department over which, we are sorry to say, the hon the Minister either has never had any control, or has effectively lost all control.

The department has been plagued with various problems, reports and investigations during the year, amongst them the resignation of the former commissioner, Mr Sitole, a report by the Auditor-General arising from a special investigation into alleged irregularities amongst senior officials, a shocking report by the Joint Standing Committee on Public Accounts in October 1999, and a qualified report by the Auditor-General on the financial statements of the previous year. The relevant committees were informed by the Director-General for the Public Service and Administration that the state had effectively lost control over the Department of Correctional Services. [Interjections.] I would like to tell the hon the Minister that this comes from the officials themselves.

Causes were stated as endemic corruption, lack of management abilities and gross violations of human rights practices that had led to a total breakdown in the effective functioning of the department. The Public Servants’ Association’s complaints pertaining to a lack of organisational skills, as well as the lack of a support structure to report and erode corruption within the department, were justified in that it was stated that a climate of fear existed that prevented honest staff from speaking out against injustice, and I would like to quote from the management report, as follows:

… insidious collusion between some elements of the unions, specifically Popcru, and senior managers who are former officials in the same union and, apparently, still members, is an unacceptable position.

The DP has stated unequivocally in the past that the department should merge either with the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development and/or the Department of Safety and Security. The management audit, in fact, indicated that there may well be a longer-term argument for abolishing this department. The DP, therefore, requests the department to start planning its integration with other departments within the security cluster.

It is clear that these problems did not arise during the immediate past, but were well known to the department and the Minister for a number of years. In November 1998 the Imbono Data Research Group Dynamics delivered a very comprehensive report to the department, during which time it was suggested that that report be made compulsory reading material for every supervisor, manager, personnel officer, union representative and work unit. This was clearly not done and as the management audit indicated, had its wise counsel been heeded, the present situation might have been avoided.

Both members of the Public Servants’ Association and the Correctional Services staff forum seem to have borne the brunt of a regime in which members unsupportive of the previous commissioner were dismissed or transferred. The DP, therefore, requests the department and the Minister to review all dismissals over the last few years, as requested in the management audit.

According to an article in the Sunday Times of 7 May 2000, it was alleged that the previous commissioner’s double-storey home had been filled with truckloads of furniture made by prisoners of Boksburg prison, which had been funded mainly by taxpayers’ money. These goods - which Mr Sitole has not yet paid for - were estimated to be valued at approximately R100 000. Was this the example set by the previous national commissioner? The other question is: Is this the example being set by the officials themselves at the moment?

In a CCMA case, Bengu v Department of Correctional Services, it was stated that the department, during 1999, reads like something reminiscent of the goings-on in the most basic of banana republics'' and thatmanagement at both national and provincial levels had simply ceased to function effectively’’.

Kitchens in the prisons were indicated to be in such a poor state that the level of hygiene would almost certainly fail a public health inspection. The levels of overcrowding in some prisons are such that the multiple cells are packed to the point where conditions cannot be set to meet minimum standards prescribed by the Constitution, or specified by the human rights charter of the United Nations.

In conclusion, it is time for the hon the Minister of Correctional Services to take political responsibility for what is happening within the department. The DP, therefore, urges both the Minister and the newly appointed national commissioner to resolve this extremely serious issue, and to ensure effective service delivery in humanitarian and universally accepted conditions. [Applause.]

Mrs S A SEATON: Chairman, crime is one of the biggest threats to South Africa today. Few South Africans have not been affected, one way or the other. The Department of Correctional Services plays a substantial and vital role in dealing with the criminals of South Africa, and does so under somewhat difficult circumstances.

The Minister has already indicated how low this has been on the agenda when it comes to public financing. The purpose of putting criminals behind locked doors is, in fact, twofold. I agree with the chairperson that, to some extent, one must look at it and say that rehabilitation is as important as locking people up. But it is twofold - and that is one issue. The other one - which is more important, I believe - is to protect the community from such persons. The Department of Correctional Services fulfils both those purposes.

May I at the outset congratulate the new commissioner, Mr Mbete, on his recent appointment, and wish him every success in this important role as commissioner. I also thank Mr Nxumalo for the role he has played during the time he has acted as commissioner.

The Department of Correctional Services does, as I have already said, play a vital role in dealing with criminals, and yet has relatively little control over some of the important issues. Now, it is very difficult for me to deal with all the issues I would like to deal with in the time allocated to me. So, I am going to dwell on some of the more positive aspects, as opposed to the negatives that the DP always chooses to deal with.

This problem has escalated. One of the major concerns that scared many of us is the overcrowding that is being dealt with by everybody. We are concerned, but the department has little control over this. This problem has escalated rather than declined over the years and in the main this is determined by courts, as almost 40%, as our Minister has said, of South Africa’s prison population are awaiting trial and the Department of Correctional Services has very little say in that.

I plead with the Department of Justice to speed up their process of dealing with awaiting-trial prisoners and I also appeal to Adv Schmidt to make the same appeal. I am specifically concerned about our youth having to sit for many months on end unproductively in a prison somewhere, awaiting trial. These youngsters, instead of receiving formal education and training that will prepare them for life, are mixing with hardened criminals, learning the worst, most damaging lessons of life.

Overcrowding is now so serious that one has to appeal to the Minister to make serious inroads in this regard and to start looking at alternative sentencing such as community correction. With the new monitoring system this is the answer. It will not only alleviate the overcrowding situation, but it is also less likely that people will not come out rehabilitated, because once one is in prison, believe me, one is subjected to the most horrific crimes. Through community correction, criminals are able to offer something back to their community, and with the new electronic monitoring system, which I do not believe will fall by the wayside, we will be able to keep track of the whereabouts of those who are doing community correction and those on parole.

Whilst still dealing with the issue of overcrowding and alternatives, our present system is such that it creates one of the major concerns found in an overcrowded facility. There is little or no opportunity for inmates to participate in any meaningful work or activity. There is little else for them to do but twiddle their thumbs, and that is a serious problem.

No one in their right mind would wish for more prisons to be built, yet we are obliged, as law-abiding citizens, to ensure that other law-abiding citizens are kept free of having criminals on the street. So it is inevitable that since the crime rate is high, establishments must be built or we must find alternative means of sentencing. We should therefore be looking to building systems and building establishments in future that will provide the maximum possibility of rehabilitation and the opportunity to be productive during the time of incarceration.

I refer specifically to our farm prisons and production workshops which provide an opportunity for meaningful existence and provide a service to the department and to South Africa. I have for the past six years advocated and pleaded with the department to find ways and I am pleased to see that this is really being done. There are inroads being made into the development of such workshops and farms to be able to produce this sort of thing. One only has to meet with the inmates of an institution such as Drakenstein and again meet with someone from Pollsmoor and one can tell the difference immediately. People who are in these institutions are motivated and enthusiastic, and they find that there is a reason to live to the end of the day. The department must please take this further and note that we need to look at this.

Demilitarisation or the reintroduction of uniforms has come up for discussion of late, and Adv Schmidt has knocked the idea, but let us also look at the other issues. Demilitarisation was seen as not being within terms of human rights, but what about the officials? What about the security of our officials in correctional institutions? If demilitarisation is going to assist them to bring about law and order in our prisons, then so be it, we would support it. We would like to see more funds allocated to developing the mental skills of both personnel and offenders, and obviously, given what I have already said, we would have wanted to see more development in the area of produce farms and production workshops.

There is a general feeling at this stage that the Department of Correctional Services, by way of their farms or production workshops, could be seen as competition to private enterprise. We in the IFP do not believe that to be the case. We are of the opinion that the electorate would prefer to see the department being self-sufficient and paying their way, rather than having them as taxpayers fund the very persons that have caused them grief. Countries around the world use their correctional institutions to provide a variety of goods and products that are sold both interdepartmentally and on the open market and we must do everything we can to ensure that we do the same.

We believe that there needs to be a stricter categorisation of prisoners and that petty criminals should, as far as possible, be detained separately from hardened criminals such as murderers, rapists, and drug-dealers. We also believe, as we have always advocated, that young people should as far as possible not be incarcerated at all, and if it is essential that they be incarcerated, that they should be detained in youth prisons and separated from adults and hardened criminals wherever possible.

We are particularly concerned that young people should be brought to trial expeditiously so that they are able to continue receiving education and/or proper training in preparation for serving as useful and productive members of society. I do, again, thank the Minister for trying to make those inroads into the developments that we have seen in the department so far.

In brief, therefore, I wish to sum up by saying that we support the Vote under discussion. We appeal to the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development to ensure that the courts play an effective role in curbing the overcrowding of prisons by dealing with all cases expeditiously and by pronouncing sentences of community correction as opposed to imprisonment for lesser crimes, particularly when dealing with young people.

We call on the Department of Correctional Services to transform as many of our existing prisons as possible into the productive institutions that we are hearing about. We ask that wherever possible any savings made on the budget be reallocated, firstly, to the development of productive institutions and, secondly, to developmental skills of both personnel and inmates. We support the reintroduction of uniforms. We would want to see stricter categorisation of prisoners, ensuring that hardened criminals are detained separately from petty criminals. Certainly, that should apply to young people.

Lastly, we believe that young people should be dealt with in such a way as to ensure that they retain the potential of being effective citizens in the future. We, in the IFP, congratulate the Minister on the role he has played in bringing corruption within his department to the fore, on the manner in which he has dealt with serious issues over the past months and on doing everything possible to ensure that the Department of Correctional Services plays its correct and vital role in dealing with criminal elements of our society. We commend him for continuing to lead his department under extremely difficult situations and very much undeserved criticism at all times.

Mr N B FIHLA: Chairperson, hon Ministers, members, firstly, what I must say is that South Africa is part of global society. It is not an island and, therefore, it must be influenced by what is happening in other countries. Similarly, therefore, the justice system of South Africa has to be influenced by what is happening in other countries, in particular developing countries, taking into account the conditions existing in our country.

In 1995 the then President of South Africa, Comrade Nelson Mandela, made a surprise announcement to the nation that children should be released from jail. This came about after his long experience of the inhuman and brutal conditions of the penal institutions of South Africa and the effect these had on the youth, especially the disadvantaged youth of our country.

The signatories to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child in 1990, in article 40, said:

… confer upon all children suspected, accused and convicted of breaking the law the right to treatment which supports their dignity and personal value, which reinforces respect for human rights and fundamental human liberties, and which takes account of the child’s age, as well as the necessity to facilitate his or her reintegration into society and to assume a constructive role within it.

The fact that children as young as 10 years old have been held, while awaiting trial, in prison and in police cells, has long been a source of concern to South Africans and international observers alike. Children have been detained in prison while awaiting trial for trivial and petty offences. There was also a lack of available places of safety in which juveniles could be remanded, which resulted in children being referred to prisons or police cells while awaiting trial. One other problem is that places of safety do not necessarily have secure facilities, resulting in real fear that they may abscond. To quote Latron:

If a child is the material out of which men and women are made, the neglected child is the material out of which paupers and criminals are made.

According to the continental European approach of a neglected child or child in danger, and a dangerous child or juvenile offender, they created two alternatives, that is a moderate juvenile system and a radical welfare system, which is found in the Scandinavian countries. That is the creation of a welfare system for all youth in trouble. However, in America the creation of juvenile courts has not prevented serious juvenile offenders being brought before the adult criminal courts regardless of the age of the offenders.

All societies have some form of legal system that defines acceptable behaviour which involves some form of sanctioning. In the USA, as a way of treating offences committed by children, they have created separate courts, namely the juvenile courts, and these are civil courts and not criminal courts.

The acceleration of violent crime amongst the youth in society has resulted in changing the attitude from that of regarding youngsters as children first and offenders second. The juvenile justice system has been toughened up in many countries, including ours, with the exception of the Scandinavian countries. Instead they have toughened up the welfare system.

The militant language of today is ``nipping offending in the bud’’, and many of today’s juvenile offenders may graduate into tomorrow’s adult criminals unless strong action is taken now. In some states in America 15 or 16-year-olds can be referred to an adult court for any felony or offence and can be incarcerated for up to 99 years or life for a capital or first- degree felony.

In South Africa, the new section 29(1) prohibits the detention of a juvenile of 18 years and under in police cells, prisons or lock-ups. We have juvenile courts in South Africa. Instead, juveniles are tried in adult courts and youth who have committed serious crimes listed according to South African laws can be sentenced to any number of years, in the same manner as adults are.

Now that many Acts are being passed by the justice system and Safety and Security is becoming more efficient at curbing crime in the country, our prisons are currently overflowing with offenders, and youth in particular. The growth in the detained population and more severe penalties indicate a greater pressure on probation and other supervisory and placement services. If facilities become untenable for staff, programmes suffer and costs sky- rocket as a result.

Before coming to a solution to the problem of juveniles in prison in our country and our conditions, let us look first at other developed countries of the world. In the USA, in some of the states, a juvenile under 18 who has committed a serious crime is treated as an adult and sentenced in a criminal court. In England and Wales offenders aged between 10 and 17 years are generally tried in youth courts, depending on the nature of the offence they are alleged to have committed, or they may be tried in adult magistrates’ courts. In Scotland it is rare for offenders under the age of 16 to be prosecuted. Most juveniles are brought before a child’s hearing consisting of three lay people.

Under the Crime and Disorder Act of 1998, they have done away with the assumption that a child between the ages of 10 and 14 is incapable of distinguishing between acts which are merely naughty and mischievous and those which are seriously wrong. This is intended to enable all juveniles aged between 10 and 17 to be treated in a similar way. Also, under the concept of restorative justice, a young offender has to apologise to his or her victim by making amends for the harm he or she has done.

The second principle is reintegration, whereby a young offender has to pay his or her debt to society by putting his or her crime behind him or her and joining the law-abiding community. In terms of the third principle, responsible young offenders and their parents are facing the consequences of the offending behaviour and taking responsibility for preventing further offences. The new approach is intended to ensure that the most serious offences continue to be dealt with in a criminal court to provide punishment. [Time expired.]

Mr J DURAND: Mr Chairman, the New NP will approve and vote for this budget, basically for two reasons.

Firstly, we are convinced that the Minister will do whatever he can to solve the problems of the department and make sure the department runs well. We are, however, concerned that the national Government is not supplying the department with adequate funding, which is owing to either a lack of resources or an agenda to make sure that an IFP portfolio is funded to fail. National Government should react to that.

The Public Service Commission is in the process of conducting management audits and we hope that the necessary intensive and focused investigations will follow which, if necessary, will result in criminal charges and dismissals. This department has been plagued by scandals. The book reads like a horror story from a banana republic. The Auditor-General’s report for the past two years reflects that there are gross deficiencies, shortcomings and irregularities concerning a wide spectrum of the department’s activities. The control over the following items was totally inadequate: transport, medical expenditure, double payments, vague and unclear descriptions on invoices, payments made on statements and not on invoices, unsatisfactory administration of leave, signing-in registers which were not available, incorrect manual leave records, and irreconcilable personnel records.

The previous national commissioner managed a soccer team from his office, using officials from the department in his team. Before Commissioner Sitole resigned he ordered oak furniture to the tune of R100 000, and nobody could tell whether it was paid for. In comments from the department as to why no proper internal control measures existed it was stated that these sections functioned without leaders and the officials did not care how well the job was done. New personnel were not properly trained and lacked experience.

Another example is that Gauteng was listed as the province with the highest medical expenses. Twenty-seven per cent of the national total prison population accounted for 49,2% of the expenditure. The possible reasons were the high cost of private health care services and unrealistically long stays in private hospitals. We must, however, praise Minister Skosana. When the Minister took over political control of this department he did not cover up the mismanagement and corruption. The President was informed and an investigation was conducted.

Ons van die Nuwe NP beloof om in belang van ons land en sy mense vreesloos en sonder aansien des persoons voort te gaan om korrupsie en wanbestuur, waar dit ook al kop uitsteek, met alle mag te beveg. Indien hierdie Regering verbind is tot skoon en doeltreffende landsadministrasie kan daar te alle tye op ons kundigheid en ondersteuning staatgemaak word. Ons is verbind tot ‘n Departement van Korrektiewe Dienste wat hom beywer vir die veilige aanhouding van oortreders, beheer en toesig oor geparoleerdes, die menslike aanhouding en behandeling van gevangenes, die verskaffing van ontwikkelingsdienste, hertoelating tot die gemeenskap, en effektiewe hulpbronbestuur en -benutting. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[We in the New NP promise, in the interests of our country and its people, to continue to fight corruption and mismanagement wherever it occurs, with all our power and without fear or favour. If this Government is committed to clean and efficient public administration, our expertise and support can be relied on at all times. We are committed to a Department of Correctional Services which strives for the safe detention of offenders, control and supervision of parolees, the humane detention and treatment of prisoners, the provision of development services, re-entry into the community, and effective resource management and utilisation.]

Our nation’s compassion and our level of development can be measured by the way in which we treat our offenders. The New NP believes that offenders, and especially those guilty of violent crimes, should be punished and sentenced, and that sentences should act as a deterrent to criminals and law-abiding citizens. Once the guilty enter our penal system they must be kept in safe custody and a programme must be in place to ensure the rehabilitation and development of all prisoners.

Some people argue that prisoners should not have more than basic human rights, such as the right to food, a place to sleep and toilet facilities, and that no private privileges should be given to convicted criminals other than family visits. We believe that prisons should reform prisoners. Funds could be generated for this purpose by managing prison farms and workshops like businesses and selling products at market-related prices. If prisoners are not developed to enable them to once again function as law-abiding citizens, our prisons will become production lines for rapists, murderers and thieves.

Overcrowding and the shortage of wardens, educators and psychologists must be addressed. In this financial year the warder-to-offender ratio is estimated at 1:9, against the international norm of 1:4. We are producing hardened criminals. The freezing of posts, lack of funds to build new prisons, and inadequate funding for the repair and maintenance of existing prisons are adding to the high crime-rate problem in our country.

South Africa’s prisons have been built to accommodate 99 400 inmates, but in June 1999 they were holding 154 000 inmates. In June 1999 some 54 000 prisoners were awaiting trial. The remainder, 100 000 prisoners, were sentenced prisoners. Between June 1994 and June 1999 the number of sentenced prisoners increased by 25%. The number of awaiting-trial prisoners increased by 170% over the same period. The Government should look at the Justice department and try to improve this situation.

The Government is seeking to address the overcrowding problem by reducing the number of awaiting-trial prisoners and outsourcing the construction of some new prisons. In this year’s budget, funds for construction were frozen, and we demand the implementation of the electronic monitoring system.

Our prisons have become breeding grounds for HIV and Aids. The department states that there are only 2 881 cases of HIV out of a prison population of 170 000 and this is a gross underestimation. [Time expired.] Mr L N DIALE: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister of Correctional Services, hon members and comrades, no society has ever been totally free from corruption. Even the most successful and longest-established market societies are to this day still struggling to control corruption within their own ranks. A study done by Transparency International reveals a disturbing picture of the degree to which companies from leading industrial nations are using corrupt practices to win business, particularly in developing countries such as our own.

The ANC Government’s commitment to the eradication of corruption, not only in the Department of Correctional Services, but also in the broader society, is a well-documented fact. This commitment is proved by the fact that there are no fewer than seven different offices responsible, to a greater or lesser degree, for the investigation of corruption. They are: the anticorruption units of the SA Police Service, the commercial branch of the SA Police Service, the Independent Complaints Directorate, the Office for Serious Economic Offences, the Public Protector, the Heath commission and the Auditor-General. In addition, we have the National Conventional Arms Control Committee, which oversees all arms transfers; a public register in which all interests of members of Parliament are reported; the Executive Members’ Ethics Act, which subjects national and provincial executives to strict rules; the Cabinet code of conduct, which states that all Ministers shall observe practices that are free from corruption; and the Promotion of Access to Information Act, which guarantees citizens the right of access to any information held by the state.

A perception is being created that corruption first appeared after the ANC assumed political power. Those who propagate this idea either fail to understand the link between corruption and the apartheid system or are deliberately misleading our people in pursuance of their own sinister agenda. The apartheid system created the perfect conditions for corruption to thrive. It was a system that was based on secrecy and unaccountability. It was a system that was designed to maintain a model of social organisation that was universally discredited.

As a result of this, the apartheid state was increasingly isolated from the international community. This isolation resulted in a general situation of lawlessness which impacted not only on state institutions, but also on our society as a whole, and it gave rise to a mentality that wilfully ignored both legal and ethical norms. Its end result was, in the words of our President, ``a disastrous collapse of social values which was replaced by the notion that what is good is what serves my individual material interests’’.

Even the DP, which has a holier-than-thou attitude when it comes to corruption, has unashamedly succumbed to these notions by embracing a corrupt former homeland leader convicted of fraud, for the sake of a few black votes. This notion that what is good is what serves my own interests is not confined to the Public Service alone. This is proved by the fact that, in the private sector, the Directorate for the Investigation of Serious Economic Offences and the commercial branch of the police are investigating fraud in excess of billions of rand.

In many cases it is elements of the private sector that encourage corruption in the Public Service. The private sector is known for the emphasis it places on personal interests over social and collective ones. It instils private demand in place of public need as the main principle of decision-making, by offering enticements and rewards for public officials to use their power and knowledge as market assets.

Such a setting leaves no room for values, and it is difficult to see how honesty can prevail either among officials or among those elements in the private sector with whom they deal. The responses of most opposition parties to corruption … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Dr S E MZIMELA: Mr Chairperson, let me begin by welcoming the new commissioner, Rev Mbete. I am not sure whether I should congratulate him or express my condolences. [Laughter.] There are some who think he is a madman for accepting this position and others, like me, think he must be a saint. Whichever the case, we want to welcome him and assure him of our support as he begins this difficult task.

Much has been said about the Department of Correctional Services and, no doubt, a lot more will continue to be said in this House, outside this House, in the media and elsewhere. I want to limit my brief remarks to just three areas. One of those has to do with this budget itself, the other has to do with the Office of the Independent Judge and, lastly, my passion, which is the youth. bviously, this budget is not enough, and I do not think there will ever come a time when the budget for Correctional Services will be enough. Undoubtedly, Correctional Services is a step-child and, therefore, comes as an appendix and is not given the due recognition it deserves. Therefore, we have to find alternatives, and alternatives are there, but we need to fight for them.

The Department of Correctional Services has the facilities to be a major producer of usable goods. We have the workshops, we have the farms and yet we are restricted by silly regulations which are archaic and do not fit in this modern world. Many studies have been done, many trips taken to overseas countries to see how other countries deal with the shortages of funds, and it has been conclusively demonstrated that prisoners can be usefully employed in the production of marketable products which, in turn, bring in revenue which will make it less necessary for the taxpayer to support those prisons.

There have been arguments from other sources outside of Government that such a scheme in this country would provide unfair competition to the private sector. However we, the taxpayers, are already paying to keep inmates in prison. Why do we not employ them productively, so that we not only train them, but that they produce stuff that will bring in revenue to run those prisons? It is not difficult. It is done in other countries. The Minister should take it up and he will find us fully supporting him to make this a reality here. Otherwise, in the next 20 years, we will be complaining about insufficient funds in the system.

The Office of the Independent Judge was set up precisely to have an organ outside of Correctional Services, that would be a watchdog to look into all the activities of Correctional Services. It was decided at the time, that the Independent Judge would staff his own office and conduct his or her affairs as an independent person, quite independent from the Ministry and the department. It is, therefore, disturbing to hear that, two years after the establishment of that department, that arm of Correctional Services is still not operational.

The independent visitors programme is still not in place, but far more disturbing is the fact that the office of the judge itself is staffed by ex- members of the Department of Correctional Services. Surely that was not the intention when establishing this office. I appeal to the Minister to look immediately into the staffing of that office so that we can have independent people there who are going to lend a helping hand to discover what is wrong, and not be afraid to report it and find corrective measures.

The third thing is that we should struggle to divorce the department and the Ministry of Correctional Services from the Department of Public Works. Most of the time much work that can be done more speedily by Correctional Services is not done, because appeals must be made to Public Works. They undertake their own studies, and they take their own time, because they do not feel the pressure, as it is not their department. As a result, work that could easily have been done within the Department of Correctional Services itself is delayed, or not done at all.

Finally, on the question of the youth, as one of the speakers has already said, it was said in 1994 that we must rid our prisons of children. I think we need to pay renewed attention to that aspect of correctional services and put every effort into not just removing children from prisons, but speeding up the programme of developing youth development centres. If we could prevent the youth from developing into hardened criminals, then we would have made a major impact on solving the problem of overcrowding in prisons and criminalisation in our society.

However, we must understand, as a Parliament and as a people, that no amount of work can be done only by the Department of Correctional Services. Correctional services is a responsibility of society. All of us indeed, if we quote Scripture, are our brothers’ and sisters’ keepers. It is our responsibility to see that those who have fallen by the wayside are rehabilitated. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr S B NTULI: Chairperson, hon members, hon Mzimela, this Government takes this Department of Correctional Services very seriously. It is only due to the historical background that there is still a vast scope to cover in its transformation.

Let me start by saying that the Department of Correctional Services is well on its way to achieving its vision of delivering excellent correctional services in the interests of the community, and those entrusted to its care. This will be achieved through rendering a professional service in order to contribute to community protection, stability and development. Furthermore, the new Correctional Services Act has brought our correctional services legislation into line with international standards, and has laid a solid foundation for the future. It is, as indicated by the hon the Minister, a radical departure from the discriminatory system of the past. It further ensures that South Africa is on a par with our Constitution and legal framework.

Firstly, I wish to bring to the attention of the House that prior to 1994 representivity in the management structure in the Department of Correctional Services was as follows: 73% white males, 2% white females and 25% black males. With only 2% white females in the department, one wonders how they served all other South Africans, as they probably were not only Afrikaans-speaking, but were also foreign to the diverse cultures of other South Africans.

By the end of 1998, the figures had changed drastically to 31% white males, 51% black males, and 18% females of all races. Indeed things are happening in the Department of Correctional Services’ management structure. However, from the above statistics it is very clear that there is still a lot of ground to cover. Furthermore, the establishment of the Judicial Inspectorate in June 1998 has added to the desired change in the department as the inspectorate will function independently, inspecting prisons and monitoring the treatment of prisoners.

Secondly, the above will only be consolidated if we encourage a curriculum change. The department needs to pursue dialogue with other tertiary institutions, as it is doing with the University of Zululand, in developing and introducing a curriculum that provides skills required by the personnel serving in prisons and working with prisoners. This is necessitated by the fact that most of our tertiary institutions offer penology and criminology, whereas prison personnel, in addition, require criminal justice and administration knowledge, as well as research skills. Hence the need to transform the curriculum.

Thirdly, there is the introduction of Apops, the Asset Procurement and Operating Partnership System, which refers to the private-public partnerships whereby private contractors are contracted to design, build, manage and operate private prisons on behalf of the department. This should be applauded, as it will create job opportunities and reduce prison congestion, while maintaining efficient and cost-effective business plans. These developments are in line with the transformation of the correctional services. However, it is essential that we also review prison conditions. The introduction of C-Max and  Super-Max prisons to keep prisoners who committed serious crimes in more secure prisons is a step in the right direction. It also separates hardened criminals who committed serious offences from those who committed less serious crimes. For example, we should not mix a prisoner who has just stolen sweets or a sheep with those who have committed murder, rape and various other serious crimes, because if we do that, such a prisoner may end up learning other criminal tendencies and practices while living together with such criminals.

In conclusion, the Department of Correctional Services is well positioned for the future. The transformation of our correctional services system in matters such as personnel composition, demilitarisation, the bringing down of escapes and our back-to-basics approach as announced by the Minister is, indeed, exemplary. Our task is clear. The challenge is now to focus on our goals and objectives to make South Africa a better place for all law- abiding citizens. [Applause.]

Mopishopo L J TOLO: Motlhomphegi Modulasetulo, maloko a hlomphegago, Tona ya tša Dikgolego, Motlhomphegi Mna Skosana, Mokomišinare e moswa wa Kgoro, Mna Mbete - ke a mmona ke motho wa mafolofolo, gomme ke tshepa gore mošomo wa rena o tlo tšwela pele - pele ga ge nka tšwela pele, ke rata go bontšha Shenge, kgoši ya ka, gore a se ke a hlwe a opišitšwe hlogo ke NP. Ka seZulu bare: (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[Bishop L J TOLO: Mr Chairperson, fellow members of Parliament and hon Minister Skosana, I am grateful to see our new commissioner, Mr Mbete - he appears to be a very able man indeed - and I have no doubt that, under his leadership, the department will move forward. At the outset, I would like to appeal to my chief, Shenge, not to take to heart everything that is said by members of the New NP. In isiZulu they say:]

Wajikelez’umuzi wenye indoda. Owakho wawushiya nobani, mfana? [Why are you so concerned about other people’s affairs? What we about yours?]

DP re e tlwaetše e le ka wona mokgwa woo. Gagolo ke be ke nyakile bagolwane ba yona, madimabe ke gore ga ba ntshe lehono, e no ba baswa. Re nyaka boDouglas Gibson le bagolwane ba gagwe. Ge e le ba bona ba ka se bone selo, re ka ba tšhela ka lerwele, ba tšwa ba tšhaba.

Nakong ye tlago, ge ke tlo be ke bolela ka tša Kgoro ya tša Selegae, ke tlo ba botša gore go diregile eng. Shenge, o tlogqoe swere! Bjale ke bolela ka siNdebele. (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[We are used to the DP and their shenanigans in this House. I personally would have preferred to debate issues of this department with senior members of that party, but unfortunately they are not in the House today. There are only junior members. We would have preferred to engage with their high-ranking members who are on the same level as hon Mr Gibson in the DP. The problem with the lower-ranking members is that when the going gets tough for them they always beat a retreat, often in disgust.

During the discussion on the Home Affairs Vote I shall have ample time to tell the new NP what has actually happened. Yes, Shenge is right!]

NgesiNdebele bathi Skosana ubegade athanda ukuya etjwaleni khulu, uMahlangu wasala angena wamthathela ubukhosi. [In Ndebele they say: Skosana was a drunkard, Mahlangu came in and took the chieftainship.]

Bagešo, bjale ke rata go bolela ka tša go tlalelana ga dikgolego mo nageng ya rena borwa bja Afrika. Dikgolego tša Afrika, ka kakaretšo, di tlalelane. Ge motho a lebelela mafelong a mangwe o hwetša e le gore phapošana, yeo e kago lekana batho ba lesome, e hlahletše ba masome a mararo, goba go feta. Tlalelano yekhwi gabotse e hlolwa ke eng? Ke gopola ge re be re le Freistata re ile ra hwetša ngwana wa mošemanyana, wa nywaga ye lesomepedi, yo a bego a latofaditšwe ka molato wa gore o utswitše lelekere la go ja diranta tše pedi. Ngwana yoo o be a hlahletšwe le masogana a magolo a go lekana le nna. Gape ba be ba šetše ba mo fetošitše mosadi. Re ile ra kwa botlhoko, moo re ilego ra be ra kgopela mohumagadi Limpho Hani gore a ke a founele mohlomphegi Khulekani Sitole, a mo kgopele go ntšha taelo ya gore ngwana wa go swana le yoo a lokollwe kgolegong. Go bile bjalo.

Ntlha ye nngwe yeo re ilego ra e lemoga ke ya kgarebe yeo e bego e latofaditšwe ka la gore e utswitše dieta tša go ja diranta tše masome a mane. Yena o be a goga sekwebo sa dikgwedi tše seswai. Ge motho a ka lebedišiša lebaka la gore ge ka letšatši a be a e ja diranta tše masome a seswai, seo se laetša gabotse gore ge nkabe a iteilwe ka kgati ye nyenyane gore a goge sekwebo seo a le kantle, e be e tlo ba wo mongwe wa mekgwa ya go fokotša tlalelano ya dikgolego tša rena.

Se sengwe gape seo re ilego ra se lemoga, ge re be re le fao, ke gore mogolegwa e mongwe o be a swerwe ka molato wo monyenyane, go thwe o utswitše borotho khefing; eupša ge a botšišwa o ile a re botša gore ka nako yeo o be a šetše a swere ngwaga wa bobedi a le gare a letetše tsheko. Dilo tse bjalo ka tše, di tloge di laetša gore ke tšona di dirago gore dikgolego tša rena di tlalelane gabonolo. Ka gona, go bohlokwa gore ge mogolegwa yo mobjalo a ka be a iteilwe ka kgatinyana ye sesane gore a se ke a be a tsoga a bušeleditše le ka mohla o tee, ke a dumela gore ge a le kantle a ka ba e mongwe wa ``barutiši’’ bao ba tlago lemoša ba bangwe gore teronko e a baba. Seo se ka dira gore mohlomongwe palo ya bagolegwa dikgolegong tša rena e theogele fase.

Se sengwe seo ke ratago go se bontšha ke gore ka 1998 re be re le Engelane ka Komiti ya Ditirelo tša Tshokollo. Seo ke ilego ka se bona fao ke gore bagolegwa ba rutwa mešomo ya diatla ya go swana go aga, go lokiša dikoloi, go dira dihangara tša go aka diphahlo le go lema. Bagolegwa ba basadi ba rutwa le go roka diaparo. Tšohle tšeo di dirwago ke bagolegwa di a thuša, ka ge di rekišetšwa batho kantle gomme ka mašeleng a ntshe go kaonefatšwe kgoro gore go fedišwe dillo tše dingwe, tšeo di rotošwago ke ba go swana bomohlomphegi Tony Leon, yo a rego batho ba ja ditšhelete tša Mmušo, tša batšhedi ba metšhelo. O tšama a re bolela gampe ka mo ntle, efela ga se a ke a ba teronkong le ka ‘tšatši le tee. (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[I am going to focus on the issue of overcrowding in our prisons. South African prisons are, in general, extremely overcrowded. One will find that, at some of them, a cell that is meant to accommodate only ten inmates is actually crammed with some 30 or more. What could be the cause of this overcrowding? During one of our fact-finding missions in the Free State we came across a young prisoner of 12 years who was jailed for allegedly stealing some sweets valued at about R2. The poor little boy was incarcerated in the same cell with adults of my age, and was virtually turned into a housewife. We were so shocked that we asked Limpho Hani to telephone Commissioner Khulekani Sitole who promptly ordered that youngsters of his age be released into the care of their parents.

Another case was that of a young girl who was sentenced to a six months’ prison term for allegedly being guilty of stealing a pair of shoes valued at about R40. If one considers the fact that the cost of housing a single prisoner amounts to about R80 per day, this clearly indicates that it would have been a good idea for the court to have permitted her to serve her sentence under correctional supervision, and not in prison. This could serve as one of the measures which, I believe, can help ease the problem of overcrowding.

A further case was that of an inmate who was held in prison on a minor offence of allegedly stealing a loaf of bread at a café. When pressed for further details, the inmate revealed to us that he has been waiting for two years for his court case to be finalised. These are some of the factors that cause overcrowding. I am of the firm belief that offenders who have committed less serious crimes - that pose no danger to society - should be given the alternative sentencing of either being released early or sentenced to a lesser prison term. Those serving sentences under correctional services could be good ``teachers’’, and will preach the good gospel that prisons are not pleasant places. That would, I believe, further reduce overcrowding in our prisons.

I was a member of a delegation of the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services that visited England in 1998. What I found out during that visit was that inmates were taught skills such as bricklaying, motor mechanics, manufacturing of items such as hangers, and agriculture. Female inmates were trained in making clothes. All items manufactured by inmates are useful because they are sold to the public and the money collected from them goes towards improving the department to enable it to be in a position to deal with some other pressing issues such as those mentioned by the hon Tony Leon, who goes about libelling us by saying that some ANC members are engaged in financial mismanagement. However, he has never served a single term in prison in his life.]

Om die waarheid te sê, dit is baie makliker om te praat as om te doen. As ‘n mens na die agb Douglas Gibson en Tony Leon luister, hoor jy hulle praat van die plattelandse gebiede - daar waar ek bly - en sê die mense daar sukkel, maar hulle bly nie self daar nie. Ek bly daar! [Gelag.] Met ander woorde, die regte mense bly daar. Die Bybel sê ons mag nie lieg nie, so ek praat die waarheid. Die Bybel sê ook ek weet beter en hulle weet nie. Hulle moet my volg. Ons het nou krag daar. Ek sit daar saam met my vrou, ek slaap lekker en ek kan loop net waar ek wil.

Ander mense kyk na die NP en wys vinger. Hier is vyf vingers. Hierdie een vinger … [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[To tell the truth it is far easier to talk than to do. When one listens to the hon Douglas Gibson and Tony Leon, one hears them talking about the rural areas - where I live - and saying that the people are battling there, but they themselves do not live there. I live there! [Laughter.] In other words, the right people live there. The Bible says we must not lie, so I am speaking the truth. The Bible also says I know better and they do not know. They must follow me. We now have power there. I sit there with my wife, I sleep well and I can go where I like.

Other people look at the NP and point fingers. Here are five fingers. This finger … [Interjections.]] Ms J A SEMPLE: Mr Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it in order for the hon member to refer to members of the opposition as people who ``lieg’’, ie who are telling lies? [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I listened to the hon member very carefully. He did not say that. [Interjections.] What he said was that the Bible says: Ons moet nie lieg nie.'' [We must not lie.’’] That is what he said. [Laughter.] Please continue, hon member.

Biskop L J TOLO: In 1960 het ek beeste opgepas en ons het baie daar in die berge geloop. Daar was ‘n soort diertjie wat gelyk het of hy in die klippe ingaan. Ons het dan lang stokke gesoek en gekrap tot hulle uitgekom het. Die akkedisse het dan uitgekom en weggehol. Ek het nou weer die stok ingesit en dit is hoekom die agb lid my nie gehoor het nie. [Gelag.]

Ons wil hê hulle moet skaam kry. As ‘n mens van die plattelandse gebiede praat, dan sê hulle altyd: Ons weet daarvan.'' As ons van die tronk praat, sê hulle ook:Ons weet daarvan.’’ Kyk hoe vet is daardie lid, want hy het nog nooit swaargekry nie. [Gelag.] [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Bishop L J TOLO: In 1960 I herded cattle and we walked about in the mountains a great deal. There was a little creature that looked as though it was going in amongst the stones. We then looked for long sticks and prodded between the stones until these creatures emerged. The lizards then emerged and ran away. I have been prodding with a stick again and that is why the hon member did not hear me. [Laughter.]

We want them to be ashamed. When one talks about the rural areas, they always say: We know about that.'' When we talk about prison, they also say:We know about that.’’ Look how fat that hon member is, because he has never suffered. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]]

Seo ke ratago go se bontsha … [O tsenwa ganong. [What I want to indicate here is that … [Interjections.]]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Tsielala! Mohlomphegi Mopishopo Tolo, nako ya gago e fedile! [Legofsi.] [Order! Hon Bishop Tolo, your speaking time has expired! [Applause.]] Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, hon Minister, one of the main challenges facing the department, and one which has a direct impact upon its Vote, is the serious degree of overcrowding in the prisons, particularly with 33% of the prison population comprising awaiting-trial prisoners. This problem, together with the problem of HIV/Aids and sexual assaults by fellow inmates, necessitates an alternative approach, particularly regarding youthful offenders.

As the hon the Minister is aware, the concept of restorative justice was widely discussed at the recently held 10th UN crime conference in Vienna. In this regard, the pilot project, the Stepping Stones one-stop justice centre in Port Elizabeth, involving the three departments of the security cluster, should be adopted elsewhere. Here restorative justice principles are applied where youthful offenders, depending on the nature of the offence, are referred away from the criminal justice system by means of diversion programmes whereby, inter alia, a young person takes responsibility for his actions and makes restitution to the victim. Emphasis is further placed on family preservation, with the need being expressed to keep young offenders within the family context wherever possible.

In this regard, the Applied Fiscal Research Centre of UCT, in evaluating the cost of the proposed child justice Bill, concluded by saying that instead of sending 14 600 children to prison each year at a cost of R354 million, the new system of the child justice Bill would direct 66 000 children toward restorative justice programmes at a cost of a little over R23 million. In the process, an overall saving of about R246 million would be effected.

The ACDP further welcomes the projected departmental income of R8 million, generated by the proceeds from, inter alia, workshops and prison labour and farm products. We will, however, prefer that gratuities paid to such prisoners be utilised to make restitution. [Time expired.]

Nk B O DLAMINI: Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo. Ngqongqoshe ohloniphekileyo, malungu ePhalamende ahloniphekile, ukuxoxisana ngesabiwo-mali sakulo mnyango kufike ngesikhathi esibi lapho wonke umuntu ewubheke ngamehlo abomvu, ngokuthi kunophando olwenziwayo kulo mnyango. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[Ms B O DLAMINI: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Ministers and hon members, the debate on the budget of this department came at the wrong time, when everybody was watching it closely, because an investigation is being conducted on the working of this department.]

As the ANC we have decided that we are not going to deal with the matter of investigations like the DP and the New NP, because there are still investigations taking place and it is premature to present that report here.

The hon Durand said that the ANC is not paying attention to this department. I think all members of Parliament know that the Government is now using an integrated approach and this approach was introduced to beef up the capacity of all departments and the Government. This department is in a cluster consisting of the Departments of Correctional Services, Safety and Security, and Justice - if the hon Mr Durand did not know that.

We also have a problem with the isolation of HIV offenders, because it implies that these people need to be isolated, that they do not belong to families, that they do not have homes and that they do not have communities. I think it is because the opposition are focusing on the word ``segregation’’. They are used to it, and even if it is not there they want it. The question asked by the ANC is: Why should HIV-positive offenders be separated from other offenders?

Next, I wish to focus on the issue of overcrowding. It is very sad that Mr Schmidt and his party are worried about the vicious criminal psyche, which is not the making of the present Government. The Minister has already said that steps have been taken to implement measures to curb this problem, such as electronic monitoring, correctional supervision and an independent Inspecting Judge. Previously, people were not worried about overcrowding in prisons, because the prisoners were political prisoners who kept going in and out of prison, and criminals were at large. The focus was on political prisoners. Now that the Government is cleaning up everywhere, prisons are overcrowded and on top of that measures have been taken to address this problem. That has never happened before.

In the last meeting of the portfolio committee, the newly appointed commissioner said that the department was going to implement radical changes in this department, and we trust that this is not lip service. The department and the Minister are going to use the hands-on approach, because some of the people in this department do not understand the process of transformation and the role that must be played by the department in rehabilitating offenders.

One of the urgent issues that needs attention is the demilitarisation of this department. The management audit report of the department states that there has been poor implementation of this policy. This is because there is a lack of understanding by senior management of why this department should be demilitarised. This has been done in order to create conditions conducive to the rehabilitation of offenders. The most important duty of correctional officers is to care for the offenders and rehabilitate them so that they can be reintegrated into their communities without any problems. The present situation makes correctional officers look like soldiers in concentration camps. So there is no proper relationship with and communication between the offenders and correctional officers.

On this very same issue of demilitarisation, a decision was taken long ago, as others members have said, that correctional officers who are doing administrative work should not wear uniforms, because they are not in day- to-day contact with offenders. This decision was overruled by someone in the department, who issued a memorandum that all correctional staff members should wear uniforms as from 1 August 2000. As the ANC we take this as insubordination and as resistant to transformation.

No one understands how and where these decisions are overruled in this department. Maybe this is because of what the Minister calls ``dynamic changes and challenges’’ that are expected from these members of Correctional Services who are used to a stereotyped way of working - opening and closing the gate, feeding the offenders, telling them to go to sleep at 4 o’clock, and telling them to eat supper at 3 o’clock. It has been very difficult for them to internalise the process of transformation and that has to be looked into very carefully.

The amount that is being used per prisoner is R88,62 per day. There has been an outcry from our communities and offenders who have been demanding that they want to be given this money so that they can buy food for themselves and bank part of it …

… khona bezothi uma sebebuyela emakhaya kube sengathi kade besebenza le kude eGoli mhlawumbe, bese kuba khona nabakunikeza abantwana babo. Imiphakathi yethu yona ikhala kakhulu ngendlala nangobubha. Ithi uHulumeni wondla izigebengu. Abanye bathi amajele asefana namahhotela. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[… so that when they return to their homes it will be as if they come from far away and they have something to give to their children. Our communities are living in abject poverty. They say the Government feeds criminals. Others say prisons are like hotels these days.]

This is not true. This money covers a number of areas such as medical care, food, development of offenders, rehabilitation, personal care support staff and many other programmes of this department. Nutritional care takes only R5,39 per prisoner per day.

Enye into ebalulekile imiphakathi yethu okufanele iyazi, eseyishiwo lapha umhlonishwa uCybil Seaton, ngukuthi imiphakathi yethu kufanele ikuqonde ukuthi laba bantu bagcinwa emajele khona kuzovikeleka yona imiphakathi yethu ebugebengwini obufana nokubulala, ukunukubezwa nokuhlukumezwa kwabantu besifazane, ukugqekeza kanye nezinye izinto ezinobungozi emiphakathini. [Another important thing that our communities should know, which was said by the hon Cybil Seaton, is that prisoners are kept in jail in order to protect our communities from crimes like murder, abuse of women, burglary and other dangerous crimes in our communities.]

What we need to say is that in order to reduce costs for the department, correctional supervision must be increased and offenders with minimal sentences should also be given correctional supervision. These are offenders like those who steal soap, Nestum and many other minor things. They have to be given correctional supervision so as to reduce overcrowding in prisons.

I also want to stress that this department has tried its best to deal with the issue of HIV and Aids, but more staff need to be trained so that the department can arrest the situation, more especially because, in places like these, any disease can spread like wildfire. I also need to say that the ANC supports this Vote. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Mr Chairman, when Dr Mzimela said that he did not know whether to welcome the new commissioner or not, he reminded me of a friend of mine who is a Cabinet colleague and whom I like teasing very much.

So, every time I see him, I always joke with him and say: Look I have heard some rumours somewhere that there is going to be a Cabinet reshuffle, and the rumours are that you will be coming to Correctional Services. And every time I said that, he is shocked and says: ``Whoever is going to do that to me? It means he hates me!’’ [Laughter.] That is the Minister of Sport and Recreation. Do not tell him! [Laughter.]

An HON MEMBER: He is here! [Laughter.]

The MINISTER: Mr Chairperson, well I was just trying to put that analogy, because it is always our joke and an attempt to say how difficult things can be. I just wanted to break the monotony here of the culture by which the Ministers have to present a speech, then there are responses from members, and it ends there.

I think the House will agree with me that all the members who have made responses here have made very important and fundamental points which we do not have to lose sight of. As a result, firstly, I would like to thank them for their contributions and for their support of our Vote, and also for the points that they have made in terms of advice, proposals and so on.

So, what I am going to suggest is, not to detain members any longer, that all those members who have made contributions, could give those contributions to my office, because what I want to do is try to maintain this troika - that is the management, the Ministry and the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services - so that we can use those contributions to try to establish or bring about a systematic type of programme for the portfolio committee to use. This we can then re-evaluate every time and appraise and see whether we are, in fact, meeting all those needs and concerns which they expressed here. I would not want us to lose sight of that - that is if the House and the chairperson accept that.

Otherwise I feel that important points have been raised. I have also raised points, and therefore, I do not want to belabour all those points in trying to respond, because my colleagues here have already produced almost a 10- page response to all those things. That would mean that I would be here with members for another 30 minutes, if members want to, but I do not think that is what members want.

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 12:48. _______

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report. It is also referred
     to the Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and
     Technology and to the Select Committee on Education and Recreation
     for information:


     Report of the Auditor-General on the JLB Smith Institute of
     Ichthyology for 1997-98 [RP 49-2000].


 (2)    The following papers are referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report. It is also referred
     to the Portfolio Committee on Communications and to the Select
     Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises for information:


     (a)     Report of the Auditor-General on the Departments of Posts
          and Telecommunications of the former TBVC Countries for 1995-
          96 [RP 73-2000].

     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of Eskom for 1999.


 (3)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Environmental Affairs and Tourism and to the Select Committee on
     Land and Environmental Affairs:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the South African
          Tourism Board for 1997-98.

     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the National Botanical
          Institute for 1998-99.


 (4)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Water Affairs and Forestry and to the Select Committee on Land and
     Environmental Affairs:


     (a)     Government Notice No 15 published in the Government
          Gazette No 20793 dated 14 January 2000, Determination of an
          interest rate in terms of section 59(3)(a) of the National
          Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).

     (b)     Proclamation No 6 published in the Government Gazette No
          20897 dated 25 February 2000, Commencement of certain
          provisions of the National Forests Act, 1998 (Act No 84 of
          1998).

     (c) Government Notice No 212 published in the Government Gazette
          No 20946 dated 10 March 2000, Request to register a water use
          in terms of the National Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).

     (d)     Government Notice No 213 published in the Government
          Gazette No 20946 dated 10 March 2000, Request to register a
          water use in terms of the National Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36
          of 1998).

     (e)     Government Notice No 234 published in the Government
          Gazette No 20965 dated 17 March 2000, made in terms of section
          50(4) of the National Forests Act, 1998 (Act No 84 of 1998).

     (f)     Government Notice No 277 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21017 dated 24 March 2000, Trans-Caledon Tunnel
          Authority Notice made in terms of Chapter 10 of the National
          Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).

     (g)     Government Notice No 338 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21042 dated 7 April 2000, Rates and charges for the
          Water Research Fund made in terms of the Water Research Act,
          1971 (Act No 34 of 1971).

     (h)     Report and Financial Statements of the Water Research
          Commission for 1999, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements for 1998.


 (5)    The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report. It is also referred
     to the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security and to the
     Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs for
     information:


     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote
     31 - South African Police Service and the Secretariat for Safety
     and Security for 1998-99 [RP 154-99].


 (6)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Arts, Culture, Science and Technology and to the Select Committee
     on Education and Recreation:


     Report of the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology
     for 1999, Volume One.


 (7)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Select Committee on Finance. The Reports of the
     Auditor-General included in these papers are referred to the
     Standing Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and
     report:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Department of
          Finance for 1999, including the Report of the Auditor-General
          on the Financial Statements of Vote 14 - Finance for 1998-99
          [RP 56-2000].

     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the Department of State
          Expenditure for 1999, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements of Vote 33 - State
          Expenditure for 1998-99 [RP 69-2000].

     (c)     Report and Financial Statements of the South African
          Revenue Service for 1998-99, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 1998-99.


 (8)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Select Committee on Finance:


     Report of the Statistics South Africa for 1999 [RP 41-2000].


 (9)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Correctional Services and to the Select Committee on Security and
     Constitutional Affairs:


     Report and Financial Statements of the Department of Correctional
     Services for 1999 [RP 50-2000].


 (10)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Minerals and Energy and to the Select Committee on Economic
     Affairs:


     Report of the Department of Minerals and Energy for 1999.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces: Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 Reports of the Auditor-General on the -

 (a)    Financial Statements of Enerkom (Proprietary) Limited for 1998-
     99 [RP 57-2000];

 (b)    Financial Statements of the Unemployment Insurance Fund for 1997
     and 1998 [RP 77-2000];

 (c)    Financial Statements of the Agricultural Research Council for
     1998-99 [RP 40-2000].

1. The Minister of Health:

 Report of the Department of Health for 1999-2000 [RP 75-2000].

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Open Democracy Bill [B 67 - 98] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 15 March 2000:

 A.     The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional
     Development reports as follows:


     1. The Ad Hoc Joint Committee on Open Democracy Bill submitted the
          Promotion of Access to Information Bill [B 67B - 98] (National
          Assembly - sec 75) together with its Report to the Houses (see
          Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, p 15).


     2. That Report, which was adopted by the two Houses, contained the
          following:


          "The original Bill provided a chapter on the protection of
          whistle blowers. All parties were unanimous in their views
          that this legislation is vital for the fight against crime.
          The Committee was of the view that it is not apposite to
          include a chapter on whistle blower protection in legislation
          dealing with the right of access to information. Parliament
          has embarked on a process of redrafting the chapter into
          separate legislation. The whistle blower legislation will be
          the next priority of the Committee ..."


     3. On 12 April 2000, the National Assembly, with the concurrence
          of the National Council of Provinces (on 18 April 2000)
          amended that Report to read, inter alia, as follows:


          "... with reference to paragraph 9 of the Report, the task of
          redrafting the chapter on whistle blower protection, which was
          omitted from the bill presented to the Houses by the ad hoc
          joint committee, be assigned to the National Assembly
          Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development,
          the Committee to present the redrafted chapter as a separate
          bill; and ... the Ad Hoc Joint Committee on Open Democracy
          Bill is accordingly dissolved".


     4. Therefore, the Portfolio Committee, having considered and
          examined its terms of reference, presents the Protected
          Disclosures Bill [B 30 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75).


 B.     The Committee further reports as follows:


     1. The Bill is derived from Part 5 of the Open Democracy Bill [B
          67 - 98], and purports to protect employees from victimisation
          by employers and, for that purpose, is confined to the
          relationship between employer and employee in both public and
          private spheres. The Committee considered the possibility of
          extending the ambit of the Bill beyond the purview of the
          employer/employee relationship. The Committee, inter alia,
          considered the following possibilities:
          (1) An individual who makes a disclosure concerning the
              corrupt activities of an insurance salesperson and who,
              as a result thereof, is denied insurance coverage by that
              or another insurance company.
          (2) A pensioner who, as a result of reporting on the
              involvement of an employee of an organ of state in
              criminal activities, experiences delays in receiving his
              or her pension.


          (3) A private contractor discloses information concerning
              corrupt activities in an organ of state or a private body
              and as a result thereof an existing contract is breached
              or any expectation in respect of future contracts is
              surrendered.


          It was, however, noted that most foreign jurisdictions tend to
          limit legislation of this nature to the relationship between
          employer and employee. The Committee concluded that -


          (a) any extension beyond the current ambit would require
              defining the different types of victimisation to which
              persons who are not in an employer/employee relationship
              may be subjected as a result of making certain
              disclosures; and


          (b) existing labour, contractual or other remedies may not be
              sufficient to provide appropriate redress for persons
              who, as a result of making certain disclosures, are
              subjected to victimisation.


          The Committee is not opposed to an extension of the current
          ambit of the Bill, but is nevertheless of the view that this
          would require comprehensive and comparative research.


     2. The Committee noted that the British "Public Interest
          Disclosure Act", 1998, contains a provision (section 43C) in
          terms of which a worker can also make a protected disclosure
          relating to the conduct of a person other than his or her
          employer. The Committee considered the insertion in Clause 6
          of the words underlined hereunder:


            "6.(1) Any disclosure made in good faith -


          (a) and substantially in accordance with any procedure
              prescribed, or authorised by the employee's employer for
              reporting or otherwise remedying the impropriety
              concerned; or


          (b) to the employer of the employee, where there is no
              procedure as contemplated in paragraph (a); or


          (c) to a person other than the employee's employer, where the
              employee reasonably believes that the impropriety
              concerned relates solely or mainly to -
              (i)  the conduct of that other person; or
              (ii) any other matter for which that other person has
                    legal responsibility,
          is a protected disclosure.".

          However, the Committee concluded that the provision would
          extend the ambit of the Bill beyond the scope of the
          employer/employee relationship, as discussed in paragraph 1
          above.


     3. Clause 63(1) of the Open Democracy Bill made provision for the
          exclusion of criminal or civil liability for making, what in
          terms of this Bill amounts to, a protected disclosure.
          The Committee, after considering the matter, came to the
          conclusion that it is undesirable to include this provision in
          this Bill, for the following reasons:


          (1) The Bill purports to protect employees from victimisation
              by employers, and is confined to the relationship between
              employer and employee.


          (2) Extending the scope of protection of employees to matters
              in respect of which they would otherwise -
              (a)  be liable to criminal prosecution; or
              (b)  have incurred civil liability to third parties, may
                   amount to a denial of the constitutional right to the
                   adjudication of a justiciable dispute in a court of
                   law or another independent forum.


          (3) The indemnifying of employees against prosecution for
              offences (who in certain cases may use the provisions of
              the Bill to conceal their own involvement in criminal
              activities) may frustrate the legislature's intention in
              respect of certain statutory offences and may not be in
              the best interests of the public.


          The Committee was not in a position to conduct an audit of the
          effect that such a provision may have on existing laws, and is
          of the view that such an audit will be essential to prevent
          unintended consequences resulting from such a provision.

          The Committee realises that the matters referred to in
          paragraphs (2) and (3) are arguable, and holds the position
          that these matters should be investigated more fully and, if
          necessary, the provisions of the Bill could then be reviewed.


     4. The Committee also considered the creation of a new cause of
          action for an employee who had been victimised by an employer
          in contravention of the Bill. Such cause of action could be
          aimed at the person who acted in contravention of the Bill, or
          at both the employer (vicarious liability) and such person,
          and could also introduce the concept of "punitive damages"
          into our law. The Committee considered the following as
          possible draft provisions in this regard:


          Option 1


          "(a)     Any employee who is subjected to any detriment in
              breach of section 3 is entitled to claim punitive damages
              in any court having jurisdiction.


          (b) The punitive damages may be awarded against the employer,
              or alternatively, or as well as, against any person in
              his or her personal capacity if such person's action
              caused the detriment.


          (c) Nothing in this Act shall be construed as preventing the
              employee who is subjected to detriment in breach of
              section 3 to institute an action for an order to set
              aside the action taken by the employer which constituted
              the detriment or an order directing the employer to
              remedy the detriment.


          (d) Notwithstanding any other remedy prescribed in other
              legislation, the employee may, if an application is made
              in terms of paragraph (a) above, add an application for
              an order referred to in paragraph (c) above.".


          Option 2


            "(1) Any employee who -


          (a) has suffered a detriment;


          (b) on account of, or partly on account of, having made a
              protected disclosure; and


          (c) who has suffered any loss or damage resulting from such
              detriment, may, in addition to any other relief at his or
              her disposal, bring a claim for appropriate compensation
              or any other appropriate relief against the person whose
              conduct resulted in such detriment.".


          However, the Committee is of the opinion that the creation of
          new remedies in the labour field should be approached with
          caution. A thorough knowledge and understanding of the
          existing remedies and procedures in this field will be
          necessary to ensure that duplication does not occur and to
          prevent the development of a dual system, which could create
          legal uncertainty and detrimentally affect the administration
          of sound labour practices. It should be noted that if the
          matter referred to in paragraph 2 above is investigated and
          the Bill is amended accordingly, the possibility of additional
          remedies should also be investigated for that purpose. The
          Committee is further of the opinion that the introduction of
          the concept of "punitive damages" should, likewise, be
          approached with caution.


     5. The Committee considered the desirability of creating offences
          in the Bill, in terms of which -


          (1) an employer would be committing an offence by unlawfully
              subjecting an employee to an occupational detriment; and


          (2) an employee would be committing an offence by making a
              false disclosure, or by making a disclosure not knowing
              or believing it to be true.


          The Committee holds the view that it may well be appropriate
          to create such offences. However, the Committee is aware that
          countries which have similar legislation differ in this
          respect. The Committee is also mindful of the fact that such a
          provision may impact on the existing laws and practices
          regulating employer/employee relations. This matter needs
          further research and consideration, also taking into account
          the government's 1995 decision to decriminalise labour
          legislation, before any criminal sanctions are created.


     6. The Committee is of the view that the South African Law
          Commission would be best suited to undertake research in all
          the matters referred to above, and accordingly requests the
          Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development to
          consider referring these matters to the Commission for
          investigation.


 Report to be considered.