Mr Chairman, we have now come to the end of a debate which has lasted for two days. A considerable number of hon members have participated in this debate. With the limited time at my disposal it will perhaps not be possible to reply to everyone. I shall attempt to do so as far as possible. Alternatively hon members could possibly discuss matters further with me during the Committee Stage.

Hon members did mention that this debate was probably the last of its kind. One could say that it was virtually another Great Trek of 75 years which is coming to an end. I should like to thank hon members who participated. Many of them made positive contributions and said nice things about the SATS. I thank them very sincerely. There are also others.

There are two aspects which were very clearly highlighted and to which I shall, of course, have to reply very specifically. The first is the question of foreign exchange losses, and the second— which, of course, has a bearing on that—is the request that I resign my position as a result.

Before I come to that, however, there is another aspect I should like to get off my chest. The hon member Mr Derby-Lewis participated in this debate yesterday. He referred to the Black man who, at Jan Smuts Airport, ran across the runway and was almost run down by an aircraft. He said that it was a pity the aircraft had not run that man down. [Interjections ] I see the hon member is now denying that he said that. Let me quote to him what he said. He said:

[Interjections.] I have never heard a more insensitive remark. I have never heard a more racist remark.

You do not know what a racist is. [Interjections.]

I see one sitting over there.

I have never heard a more unchristian remark. [Interjections.] I regret the fact that the hon the leader of that party is not here this morning. Let me then ask the hon the Chief Whip of that party whether he agrees with the hon member Mr Derby-Lewis.

Examine the context in which he said it. [Interjections.]

No, there is only one contextual framework, and that is that he regrets the fact that the aircraft did not run that man down. That is what he said—that is the only contextual framework—and I want to know whether hon members of the CP agree with that. [Interjections.] There they sit, and not one of them is prepared to reply. [Interjections.] If they do not dissociate themselves from what that hon member said, they are also guilty of insensitive racism. [Interjections.] Is the hon member for Soutpansberg prepared to support him?

I shall talk to you … [Interjections.]

Oh, the hon member for Soutpansberg will talk to me! [Interjections.] If the hon member does not dissociate himself from that, he places himself in the company of those who want to dispense justice with matches and car tyres! [Interjections.] I shall leave the hon member at that. I shall not make any further reference to him. [Interjections.]

I now want to refer to the two matters, ie the potential foreign exchange losses of R3,1 billion and the request for my resignation as Minister of Transport Affairs. To ask a Minister to resign is a serious matter.

What about the Government? Should it not also resign?

One does not ask a Minister to resign merely because one has nothing else to say or because one would like to get one’s name into the newspapers. [Interjections.]

†That is exactly what the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central did, and he quoted as his authority a newspaper article written by an equally prejudiced colleague of his, the hon member for Johannesburg North. That hon member quoted a few instances of Ministers resigning after certain incidents happened in their departments during the time that they were still Ministers, as though those were the only incidents that took place in those departments while these Ministers were holding the portfolios.

*What are the facts? The relevant potential losses basically occurred between May 1984 and January 1985. At the time the value of the rand decreased dramatically from approximately 90 American cents to approximately 45 American cents. It had nothing to do with the so-called Rubicon speech; that was months later.

But of course! It was in reaction to it.

During that period I had no ties with the Department of Transport.

Are you now dissociating yourself from that?

What is more, I was not even a member of the Cabinet at that time. That is how ill-considered this hon member’s demand for my resignation is!

I now want to give hon members another piece of information. Do hon members know who was then the chief spokesman on transport matters in the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly? It was none other than the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central. [Interjections.]

So it is my fault?

I had his 1984, 1985 and 1986 speeches examined. He did not say one word about any foreign exchange transactions or any possible losses as a result of such transactions. The watchdog of democracy was fast asleep. [Interjections.] All the hon members in the House and I have reason to ask him to relinquish his position as Chief Whip of that party. [Interjections.]

I will if you will!

I am not yet finished with that hon member.

*During my period of office we took a few far-reaching steps in this department. At the beginning of 1987 we dealt with a strike to which I gave my personal attention. In Parliament we conducted a debate on this issue, a debate in which I had to report on my involvement. Parliament endorsed my actions.

In the face of advice to the contrary, I pushed the SATS into a deregulated transport market. The hon member for Port Elizabeth Central agreed with that. I established a labour board to conduct proper and structured negotiations on labour matters. He also agreed with that. [Interjections.] I introduced parity in salaries, and the hon member agreed with that. I removed discrimination from the trains.

Not quite!

I am referring to the main-line trains and the commuter trains. The hon member for Klipspruit West is apparently not even aware of that. [Interjections.] I advise him to read the introductory article.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon the Minister is misleading the Committee.

Order! That is not a point of order. The hon member must resume his seat.

Mr Chairman, the hon the Minister does not know about the trains. He is lying, Sir. [Interjections.]

Order! No, that hon member cannot carry on like that. I have called the hon member to order, but he has ignored it. The hon member went on to say that the hon the Minister was lying. The hon member will now do two things. Firstly he will apologise and secondly, he will withdraw the words that the hon the Minister was lying.

Mr Chairman, I apologise and withdraw the words.

Order! The hon the Minister may proceed.

The fact is that the discrimination on commuter trains and on main-line trains has been removed. The hon member for Port Elizabeth Central agreed with that.

At my suggestion Parliament changed a 75-year-old status quo and transformed the SATS into a statutory company. In conjunction with that something very interesting happened. That hon member, who serves on the joint committee, supported that Bill on behalf of his party. What happened then? Contrary to his advice, that party voted against the Bill. His party insulted him even further by not even giving him a turn to speak in that debate.

†That hon member is an important member of that party. He is the Chief Whip of the PFP. I cannot call him a shadow Minister but I can call him a sort of after-image shadow Minister.

*I shall now tell the hon member when I shall resign. I shall resign when my party and my caucus treat me with as much contempt as his party has treated him. [Interjections.] If my party were to indicate the lack of confidence in me that his party displayed towards him, I would be prepared to resign. If that hon member has the moral conviction to do so, I am now asking him to stand up and say that he will resign as Chief Whip of that party because they treated him in that fashion. I only have to look at the hon member to know that he will not do so. My advice to him is not to say anything if he does not have something to say.

I should now like to refer to the foreign exchange losses. I want to extend my very sincere thanks to Mr James Cross, chairman of the specialist committee that investigated the matter and his committee for the thorough job they did, for the clarity they brought to bear on the picture and for the proposals they made for dealing with this matter.

The specialist committee brought out a report without having heard evidence from the management of the SATS. That does not make the report less credible, however, because management had an opportunity to put its side of the case before the joint committee under the chairmanship of the hon member for Primrose. Both the specialist committee and the management were present when the joint committee sat.

I would very much like to express my thanks to the joint committee for the report it published. It is an interrogational report, a factual report and a good piece of cross-examination. In this context certain matters were clearly highlighted. The management had an opportunity to put its case in the joint committee to specialists investigating the matter.

There are two matters I want to refer to. Firstly I want to refer to the specialist committee’s contention, in the report, that there were no proper administrative mechanisms. The impression was created that a request for the appointment of staff was ignored. The management was able to put that matter straight and point out that in effect the staff was increased from four to 10 members, and subsequently to 15 members.

There was a second aspect, which in my opinion is important, to which the management referred. On page 48 of the specialist committee’s report there is a finding which states that there was no policy in regard to foreign exchange transactions. In actual fact, on page 4 of the interrogational document the management was also able to address this aspect by asking what the policy was. I quote from page 4 of the Report of the Joint Committee on Public Accounts:

That was the policy in terms of which the SATS dealt with these transactions. This is confirmed by a letter dated 27 November 1985 and written by the previous Minister of Transport Affairs. He confirmed it in a letter to the Department of Finance in which he stated:

What I have just quoted to hon members here was, in reality, the generally accepted policy of the Transport Services at the time these foreign exchange transactions were entered into. In other words, there was a policy, but the accepted view in terms of that policy was incorrect. The Transport Services held the view that the rand would not fluctuate or that it would increase in value against foreign currency. What happened, however? As I said, there was a dramatic decrease between May 1984 and January 1985 from approximately 90 American cents to approximately 45 American cents. Prior to that, up to the end of 1983, the specialist committee found that the foreign exchange transactions had been well managed, that the personnel were sound in the experience they had and obtained good results.

The important question is now: Was there negligence or defective judgment on the part of the management of the SATS at the root of these losses or potential losses? What are the facts? The facts are that no one in this country, probably no one in the world, foresaw that decrease in the value of the rand, because it took place, not for economic reasons, but for political ones. The causes were political, and that is why the decrease could not be foreseen from an economic point of view.

I cannot vouch for the figure, and I do not think there is an actual figure, but I have been informed by a responsible group in the business sector that in this transaction the private sector could have lost as much as R35 billion. I know that one of the top companies in this country, The Blue Chip, had to pay back two and a half times more than the company borrowed. As recently as two and a half months ago the Union Bank of Switzerland said that the rand was undervalued to the tune of 45%—even now.

The impression has been created that the SATS speculated clumsily, in ignorance and with gross negligence—as the hon member for Pietersburg or Potgietersrus said—on the foreign exchange market. What does this specialist committee have to say? It said that the SATS’s officials, which it called the traders, understood the market. It said that the SATS made use of the available advice in the private sector. It found that there was no fraud or negligence, and it also said there was no speculation. [Interjections.] The hon memberfor Roodepoort said that was not correct. He can speak about that again shortly, when he has a turn to speak. That is, however, what it amounts to; that is the implication of his words. I have them in front of me, but I do not want to interrupt my train of thought now. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Potgietersrus tried to mislead Parliament by speaking of gross negligence. It was found that a potential loss of R3,1 billion was suffered, a loss which is being written off against reserves. There is still, however, a period of approximately 10 years before these amounts have to be repaid, and before these losses are realised, and it depends on the value of the rand which, according to the Union Bank of Switzerland, is probably 45% undervalued at this moment. The actual loss or possible profit therefore depends on the value of the rand against the dollar. The fact is that if one country’s exchange rate drops dramatically against another country’s currency, the former country suffers losses.

It can do what it likes, but someone in that former country, the country whose exchange rate has dropped, will receive an account for those losses. In this case, if it had not been the SATS, it would have been the Reserve Bank, and ultimately the taxpayers who would have had to pay this, as the hon members for Germiston, South Coast and Greytown did, in fact, indicate here.

Cover is being taken out, in accordance with the committee’s recommendation. On page 3 of the joint committee’s report a clear indication is given of the present policy. I quote from page 2:

This means one takes out more cover than one did previously. I quote further:

This is the present policy after completion of the investigation.

I now want to tell hon members that we have not yet heard the truth about forward cover, nor the last word on the question of forward cover.

What was the comment of the AHI—the Afrikaanse Handelsinstituut—when these potential losses came to light? The AHI’s comment was that the SATS suffered these losses, which was as it should be.

I am referring to Prof Brian Kantor of UCT, one of our very able economists. He said that it would not be wrong for large companies negotiating long-term loans not to take out any cover. [Interjections.] Yes, that is what he said. The reason for that, he says, is that what one loses in foreign exchange, one makes up in inflation.

Where can one get a better example of this than the one the hon member for Primrose presented to us here in regard to the proposed purchase of aircraft. The new generation of aircraft we are proposing to purchase cost us R2 200 million. We have already purchased a few of them and we still have to purchase a few more. We have to repay that money over a period of 12 years at a quoted interest rate equivalent to what forward cover would cost us. For that we must pay R1 430 million. If one adds interest to this, because one does, of course, have to pay this off over a period of 12 years, it means that one is paying twice as much for those aircraft.

Now a company has to decide whether it should take out cover or not. It must compete on the open market with other bodies which furnish the same services and which do not have such expenditure. Can hon members understand the position in which they place the SATS if it has to pay twice as much for its aircraft as its competitors in the overseas services? It has to pay more for fuel. What is more, it has to fly around the bulge of Africa, which adds to the cost. [Interjections.] Must it pay this amount or not?

Let us compare the situation with the SATS policy as far as insurance is concerned. Apart from the aircraft, virtually all our assets are insured by our own insurance fund, which is actually nothing more than our own reserves that have been built up so that losses can be covered. Perhaps the idea of building up one’s own reserve fund—if this is done with expertise—is something that should be taken further.

I thank hon members for having made good contributions in this regard and, as I said, I do not think the last word has yet been spoken on that subject.

I should like to refer to a few hon members. The time available to me is unfortunately very limited. Firstly I should like to thank the hon member for Primrose very sincerely for the work he is doing as Chairman of the Joint Committee, and in particular also for the work he did in connection with this report. I also want to extend my very sincere thanks to hon members of all the other parties who sat with him, for this report that they submitted to us. I think they did an excellent job.

The hon member asked the following question: If the pipelines were to break even, with how much would we be able to reduce the price of fuel? If we were to break even, and a realistic interest on capital were built into the equation, we would be able to reduce the price of fuel in the interior by approximately 2,1 cents per litre.

The hon member also requested that, after the formation of the company, ad valorem be applied to the benefit of harbour users. As soon as the SATS has been fully compensated for the uneconomic services that are being rendered in the national interests, internal cross-subsidisation within harbours will also be scaled down by trying to base tariffs on costs with an accompanying reduction in the ad valorem wharfage. In the foreseeable future it will be possible for importers and exporters in general to benefit from this. The hon member also referred to the covering of costs in respect of road motor services. I agree with the hon member that the South African Road Transportation Services must compete on an equal footing with private hauliers and that disparities in costs must be eliminated. I thank him nevertheless for the dedication with which he occupies his position.

I should like to thank the hon the Deputy Minister, who participated in this debate in his typically competent way. I thank him for the synoptic contribution he made, and for the comprehensive way in which he dealt with the hon member for Carletonville. I also thank him for his loyal support in the administration of this department. †The hon member for Glenview referred to the policy regarding the replacement and financing of aircraft. Aircraft are normally replaced at the end of their economic life or when more economic alternative aircraft become available. From time to time the SATS appropriates moneys out of profits to the Revenue Reserve, which moneys are utilised to finance the capital programme and also, of course, loan money.

Aircraft are included in the capital programme, which is important. The average life of the aircraft in S AA’s domestic and international fleets is ten years and thirteen years, respectively.

In respect of domestic services, seven new aircraft are presently on order for future expansion, as well as the replacement of older aircraft. A new generation aircraft is at present being evaluated for use on international services and I want to give the assurance that the SAA strictly adheres to all the prescribed maintenance procedures laid down by the manufacturers and civil aviation authorities and maintains the highest level of serviceability.

The hon member also wanted to know how long cross-subsidised rail passenger services will continue and whether there are other means of funding these losses. The losses on rail commuter services will no longer be cross-subsidised once the proposed commuter rail corporation comes into being. Such losses could be funded by a direct State subsidy or, as is done now, partly by increased fares and contributions by the regional services councils. It should be mentioned that the Treasury would be in a better position to do so, because all revenue earned by the company will be fully taxable. I thank the hon member for his participation.

*I thank the hon member for Wuppertal for his contribution. He referred here to two women who endured a little inconvenience on a train. I asked for an investigation to be instituted in this connection. Unfortunately I have received no details of this incident. If the hon member would give me more details, I shall certainly have the matter gone into and rectified.

The hon member asked me please to make sure that employees also receive a share in the shareholding. I can tell him that so far we have only clarified the principle. There are no details yet but I can tell him that this will probably be done on favourable conditions for the staff themselves. I thank the hon member for his exceptional contribution and also for the work he is doing on the joint committee.

I want to thank the hon member for East London North for the interest he displays in the people of the SATS. He also referred to a possible excursion on the Sun City Express. That sounds quite interesting, but I think he is still too young for that. We shall let the men over 60 go on that trip. Perhaps I, too, am still too young because Confucius says it is only after 70 that the heart no longer desires illicit pleasures. [Interjections.] I thank the hon member for his contribution.

†I no longer have a quarrel with the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central. He as well as the hon member for Bryanston referred to the discontinuation of the train service at Hammanskraal. The Hammanskraal service was never a commuter service and was operated with main line coaches hauled by diesel locomotives. Station platforms and the power supply on the line were not suitable for commuter trains.

Consequently two independent studies, by the National Institute for Transport and Road Research of the CSIR during 1986 and by the consulting engineers firm Van Wyk and Louw during 1987 were conducted to establish the most viable mode of commuter transport between Hammanskraal and Pretoria. Both studies recommended that commuter rail services be discontinued and be replaced by buses. A comprehensive campaign was launched to inform passengers about the bus services to be introduced in place of the commuter train service. I may mention that a decision had already been taken in the time of my predecessor to discontinue this service. However, every time it was postponed until the decision was finally made.

The hon member also asked when the actuarial report on the SATS pension fund will be completed. I can tell the hon member that I saw that particular firm on 27 February and I expect their report within the next few weeks.

The hon member accused me of misleading the country by stating that the tariff increase of 8,7% was lower than the inflation rate. The comparison used by the hon member to try to prove his statement was completely unrealistic because tariff increases should not be viewed in isolation but over a period of time. The tariff increase of 7,5% on average in November/December 1988 was the first increase since 1 April 1987, whereas inflation during that same period amounted to 22,4%.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Minister a question?

Mr Chairman, I do not have the time. The hon member may ask that question in the debate on the schedules. The hon member’s accusation is therefore unfounded.

The hon member enquired as to the reason for an increase of R710 000 in the estimates of the the Minister’s office. The increase is attributable to higher labour costs and certain expenditures of the Minister’s office such as higher transport and postal service costs which previously were allocated to other main services of the SATS and which are now debited directly against the Minister’s office. I can mention to the hon member that I reduced my staff from 34 to 29 members.

I want to thank the hon member for Germiston who dealt very effectively with the forex situation. The hon member revealed to me that he knew what he was talking about.

I can say the same about the hon member for South Coast who dealt with the question of the forex situation in a very balanced way. I thank the hon member for that.

*I have already replied to most of the matters to which the hon member for Roodepoort referred. However, I do want to refer to one particular item, with reference to which the hon member made a certain allegation. He maintained that the report of the specialist committee on the foreign exchange transactions of the SATS was delayed since the SATS could not provide the necessary information within a reasonable period of time.

I want to draw the hon member’s attention to the fact that the Auditor-General originally foresaw that the random sampling investigation would take place over a period of three years. On this basis 31 January 1988 was the expected date. However, the committee was of the opinion that an investigation of this nature required complete particulars of all transactions that had taken place over a period of five years. That would then serve as a basis for the investigation. This view of the committee had a material effect on the extent and consequently the completion date of the investigation.

The hon member for Bishop Lavis expressed his concern for the safety of commuting passengers.

I can tell the hon member that it is also a source of concern to us. It is a source of concern everywhere in the world where one has commuter services, because during peak hours one experiences a situation of overcrowded services. I share the hon member’s concern about passenger safety. Members of the SAP travelling in uniform are con veyed by us free of charge since they make their presence there felt. We have also established crime prevention committees to monitor this matter from time to time. I can give the hon member the assurance that we are doing everything in our power to restrict crime to the minimum.

Some hon members asked whether I would be prepared to travel on the trains with them. I have already done so, and I know precisely what is happening there. However I am prepared to take another journey, and then I shall invite hon members again.

I still have five minutes left.

I want to thank the hon member for Wellington, who made a very interesting and well-balanced speech on the question of the transportation of their own products by agriculture. He made an appeal here to agriculture to support the Transport Services. As a business organisation the SATS will in future, in the narrow competitive milieu, do everything in its power to recover the custom of the farmers. I want to give him this assurance, and also thank him sincerely for his contribution.

The hon member for North Western Cape referred to steam trains. I want to thank the hon member for his positive contribution and the interest he displays. With a view to the numerous representations that were received on this matter, a task group was appointed to investigate the possibility of a resumed steam train operation.

It is therefore a great pleasure for me now to be able to announce the following: Steam safaris as well as short-distance steam excursions will be offered regularly. The maintenance of the national steam locomotive collection will be divided among the Transport Services Museum and conservation groups and organisations. Locomotives will be made available on a loan basis to local authorities, municipalities and other bodies for static display. The SATS will deliberately maintain the necessary equipment and trade skills in order to preserve steam technology and steam expertise for posterity. A representative number of locomotives, passenger coaches and so on will be identified and preserved at the museum at Millsite. A railway line will be identified along which steam trains will in future be operated.

Along this railway line one will be able to see original station buildings, technical maintenance facilities, water tanks and so on.

In order to obtain co-operation from all persons and organisations involved, a co-ordinating body and a group preservation advisory board will be established. Once these things have been introduced it is simply not possible to use steam tractive power on our main-lines any further because this is a world-wide trend. It is uneconomical, but we are preserving all these other things for tourism, and we are also preserving them for posterity.

Mr Chairman, I want to address an invitation to the hon member for Klipspruit West. If there any are problems he is aware of, where discrimination has not been eliminated on main-lines, he should please bring them to my attention.

[Inaudible.]

He should please bring them to my attention if he is aware of any such problems.

The hon member referred to the position or the lot of our bedding attendants. He referred to their food, and to the places where they ate and slept, and I must say that these bedding attendants are some of our finest fellows on the trains. They are everyone’s friend. They are the friend of all passengers. The hon member may feel perfectly free to give me the particulars and I shall remedy the matter.

†The hon member alleged that the 11 258 staff members who earned less than R6 000 per year were all Blacks. No, this allegation is not correct. Personnel of all race groups fall within that category, not only Blacks.

*I should like to thank the hon member for De Aar for the contribution he made here. He referred to the question of mail delivery. We have restructured that matter and I hope the situation will improve.

The hon member for Humansdorp made a very interesting speech. He referred in particular to the increased productivity attained on that Port Elizabeth-Avontuur line, for which the officials concerned received an award. I thank the hon member for having brought this to the attention of the public. This shows what can really be done if people tackle a project in a motivated way, as those officials on that small railway line did. I thank him sincerely for having broached the matter here.

The hon member for Vredendal referred here to the passengers who were stranded in Noupoort. I had the matter investigated on the basis of the particulars he gave me. I found that that particular train did in fact arrive late, but even so it arrived quite a few hours before the arrival of the train departing for De Aar. In some way or other those people must simply have missed their train. However, there is an existing arrangement that the SATS makes other transportation arrangements for passengers if a connection is missed. In this case, however, it was not a matter of their missing their connection because the train was late; there were other reasons for that happening. There was enough time for them to have caught the connection.

He also referred to the rest-room facilities of the barrier attendants on Cape Town station. My information is that there are in fact such rest-room facilities—I do not know for how long they have been there, but they are there. The hon member should simply satisfy himself on that score.

†Mr Chairman, the hon member for Bryanston, who is not present at the moment, posed eight different questions. It is virtually impossible to answer all those questions but I think it would be most relevant to reply in respect of one of the issues he raised—the comparison between the cost of flying by SAA and by other airlines.

*The tariffs of the SAL are just about the lowest in the world. If one compares them over the same distances one finds that a ticket from Johannesburg to Cape Town—that is a distance of 1 271 km—now costs R270, while a ticket from Amsterdam to London—that is more or less the same distance, namely 1 293 km—costs R372. The distance from Perth to Karata in Australia is 1 251 km compared with 1 271 from Cape Town to Johannesburg, and there a ticket costs R567. To travel from Chicago to Baltimore—a distance of 1 259 km—costs R765. I can continue in this way to mention many more examples.

†The hon member enquired about the cost of delays caused by the shortage of air traffic controllers—which I trust we have resolved. The direct cost to SAA—this is interesting—for a 30-minute delay amounts to approximately R1 000.

*Mr Chairman, unfortunately my time has expired, and I thank hon members for the contributions they made. Perhaps we could discuss matters further in the two stages that are still left. Debate concluded.

Order! The hon member Comdt Derby-Lewis asked me give him an opportunity to make a personal explanation. I shall now do so. [Interjections.] Order! It is the custom that when an hon member makes a personal explanation, he shall be heard in silence.

Mr Chairman, I wish to tender a personal explanation regarding my speech yesterday when I used the words “what a pity”. An insinuation has been made that my words implied that I wanted the person concerned to be run over. That was not my intention at all.

I refer hon members to my speech where I quoted an answer from the hon the Minister which I quoted in full. In the hon the Minister’s answer reference was made to a Black man who gained unauthorized access to the runway at Jan Smuts Airport. Immediately after the hon the Minister’s quote I said “what a pity.” In using the words “what a pity” I actually expressed my shock that such an incident could have taken place at an international airport like Jan Smuts. [Interjections.]

Order!

It was a reference to the hon the Minister’s answer.

I concede that my statement could have been misunderstood and, if so, I regret the misunderstanding which has arisen. [Interjections.]

The Committee rose at 1 lh07.

Mr Chairman, on a later occasion I shall reply specifically to points of debate during the First Reading. At this stage I just want to refer briefly to certain aspects that have been highlighted.

In the first place I want to start with the last matter which was before the House. I want to make the observation that it is worth noting that the hon the Minister gave no further information about the incident the hon member Mr Derby-Lewis spoke about. We want to know who this man was, why he did something as bizarre as running across the runway at Jan Smuts airport right in front of a large and clearly visible approaching aircraft, and where this person is at the moment.

The hon Minister also referred to foreign exchange losses, and I want to say briefly that his argument, and also that of other hon members, that in point of fact losses would also have been suffered if cover had been obtained for the longterm foreign exchange contracts of the SATS, does not hold water. The fact of the matter is that if the SATS had not engaged in foreign exchange speculations, the SATS would now have been R1,2 billion better off.

The hon Minister said it was apparent from the Report of the Joint Committee on Public Accounts that there was, in fact, a policy. I just want to refer the hon Minister briefly to page 9 of the relevant report. At the bottom of this page the explanation of the chairman responsible for the report is very clear. He explains that one should distinguish between long-term and short-term policy. The present General Manager of the SATS admitted that no policy had been laid down about setting limits to the extent to which positions could be “open” and the extent to which they could be “closed”.

The hon Minister also stated that the specialist committee had found that there had been no speculation. This was also the hon member for South Coast’s contention.

The fact of the matter is that if one looks at pages 8 and 9 of the report of the Joint Committee on Public Accounts it is clear what Mr Bahrs is saying before the committee. I am not quoting his exact words.

†He says that it is a “moot point” whether this activity was “too hectic” or whether it was “speculative”.

*In other words it is a point for debate. It means specifically that the matter has not been decided, and the hon the Minister was therefore wrong. [Interjections.] In the light of these facts we should like to express our opposition to this First Reading, and before my time expires I want to formulate this briefly as follows: We refuse to vote in favour of this First Reading, firstly because of the Government’s failure to lay down a policy and/or exercise control and supervise foreign exchange transactions of the SATS. In the second place the Government has failed to operate the SATS as an essential affordable service in the RSA and to try to make a contribution to the combating of inflation.

We therefore vote against the First Reading of this Bill.

Mr Chairman, I had thought that in my First Reading speech I had made it clear that I was not attacking the hon the Minister personally in regard to the forex losses. I made it quite clear that I did this in a spirit of the parliamentary tradition of ministerial responsibility for the sins of a department whether made in that Minister’s time or in the time of his predecessor.

In fact, these were only discovered in the hon the Minister’s time. As a result of this the hon the Minister saw fit to make a personal attack on me in this House. I do not intend to respond to that personal attack, because to do so demeans the person who delivers the attack more than it demeans the person who is attacked. This House will know that I can dish it out if I want to. [Interjections.]

The hon the Minister also saw fit to raise the situation in regard to the legal status of the SATS and the joint committee meeting on that affair. I belie ve he should be told that if it is the wish of the Government that in joint committees opposition parties do not take any attitudes whatsoever, then he is going about it the right way to ensure it. One of the benefits of the joint committee system is that members have the right to take up individual viewpoints on matters in an attempt to get better legislation without then being publicly attacked in the House on those matters.

We intend to vote against this Bill for the following reasons, the first being the forex losses and the second being that the hon the Minister has not heeded the call on him to resign. If he had any understanding of the principle of ministerial responsibility I believe he would have no option but to resign. [Interjections.] The final reason is the increases in the tariffs of the SATS over the past year.

For these reasons we will be voting against the Bill.

Mr Chairman, the NP will support the Transport Services Appropriation Bill and therefore vote for it.

With this Budget we are starting off on the road ahead in an effort to cause the SATS to play its rightful part in South Africa. This Budget reflects that spirit. We are therefore in a transitional stage between the old dispensation and the new, as the hon the Minister indicated. Provision is also being made for this in the new budget.

In my opinion the hon the Minister was unfairly attacked here several times. We support this budget for more than one reason, but I just want to dwell for a moment on one or two of them. Firstly the hon the Minister is leading the SATS into this new stage of transportation in a competent way. The hon the Minister is doing his best to ensure that the SATS will be able to occupy its rightful position in the new transportation market. We have moved out of the steam era. We are now in the era of electricity and diesel. The same applies to the transportation market. We have moved out of the era of the scotch-cart and into the era of the truck. That is why it is necessary to make this adjustment. It is also necessary for the sake of South Africa and the workers of the SATS.

The hon the Minister dealt with an exceptionally competent way with the attacks made here on him personally, as well as with the attacks on the budget. I do not want to dwell on that any further. I just want to say that it testifies to competence. Since we are going to vote in a moment, we are not only going to vote in favour of the budget, but also to prove our loyalty to the hon the Minister and to ask him to continue along the course he has successfully followed up to this point. I hope that his success will in future be crowned with even greater profits, as I indicated in my speech, so that the SATS may contribute its rightful share to the Treasury.

I want to conclude by not doubting the word of the hon member Mr Derby-Lewis. I must accept what he said here. However, I want to tell him that even little Red Riding Hood would find it difficult to believe him. [Interjections.]

Question put to House of Representatives: That the Bill be now read a first time.

Question agreed to.

Question put to House of Delegates: That the Bill be now read a first time.

Question agreed to.

The House of Assembly divided:

AYES—86: Aucamp J M; Badenhorst C J W; Badenhorst P J; Bartlett G S; Bekker H J; Blanche J P I; Bloomberg S G; Bosman J F; Botha J C G; Botma M C; Brazelie J A; Camerer S M; Christophers D; Clase P J; Cunningham J H; De Beer S J; Delport J T; Edwards B V; Farrell P J; Fick L H; Fismer C L; Golden S G A; Graaff D de V; Grobler P G W; Hattingh C P; Heine W J; Heyns J H; Hunter J E L; Jager R; Jooste J A; Jordaan A L; Koornhof N J J v R; Kriel H J; Kritzinger W T; Kruger T A P; Le Roux DET; Ligthelm C J; Louw E v d M; Louw I; Malherbe G J; Marais P G; Marē P L; Maree J W; Maree M D; Matthee J C; Matthee P A; Mentz J H W; Meyer W D; Nel P J C; Nothnagel A E; Odendaal W A; Olivier P J S; Oosthuizen G C; Pretorius J F; Pretorius PH; Rabie J; Radue R J; Redinger R E; Retief J L; Scheepers J H L; Schoeman S J; Schoeman W J; Schutte DPA; Smit F P; Smit H A; Smith H J; Snyman A J J; Steenkamp P J; Streicher D M; Swanepoel J J; Swanepoel K D; Swanepoel P J; Terblanche A J W P S; Thompson A G; Van Breda A; Van de Vyver J H; Van der Walt A T; Van Heerden F J; Van Niekerk W A; Van Rensburg H M J; Van Vuuren L M J; Van Wyk J A; VanZyl J G; Venter A A; Vilonel J J; Welgemoed P J.

NOES—25: Barnard M S; Cronjé P C; Dalling D J; De Beer Z J; Derby-Lewis C J; Ellis M J; Gastrow PHP; Hardingham R W; Hulley R R; Jacobs S C; Langley T; Le Roux F J; Lorimer R J; Malcomess D J N; Mentz M J; Prinsloo J J S; Schoeman C B; Snyman W J; Soal P G; Swart R A F; Uys C; Van Der Merwe S S; Van Eck J; Van Gend J B de R; Van Wyk W J D.

Question agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a first time.

Mr Chairman, I move without notice:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, on a point of personal explanation I want to say the following. On going through my Hansard it came to my attention that I used the words “onsedelike party”—immoral party—in relation to Prof Carel Boshoff s description of the Official Opposition as a party without moral foundation. The correct Afrikaans word for this description would probably be “sedelose party”—amoral party.

With all due respect to you I withdraw the words “onsedelike party” with which I referred to the right-wing radical “papbroek”party.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon member for Sasolburg has just referred to the right-wing radical “papbroek” party. The other day, with reference to this matter, the Deputy Chairman of Committees ruled that he did not approve of the use of that word. I therefore request you to order the hon member to withdraw those words as well.

Order! This aspect has already been dealt with. The ruling of the Deputy Chairman of Committees, as I understand it, was that he preferred hon members not to use those words; it does not do the status of this House any good when such words are used. I should like to associate myself with the sentiment he expressed. Nevertheless, he did not rule that it was unparliamentary.

Mr Chairman, one can expect something like that from the hon member for Sasolburg. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, the most important news concerning this Appropriation is, of course, that it is the last Appropriation Bill of the SA Transport Services—or the SA Railways and Harbours Appropriation Bill, as it was known in days of yore.

Apart from the Main Budget, these budget debates were actually the most important debates of a State department. The SATS must be the largest business enterprise in South Africa. These debates had an exceptional character. It was on this occasion that the small things were discussed, especially during the Committee Stage, with reference to a railway line or stop, for example, or some or other problem or observation with regard to some other aspect. Members were able to make important inputs with regard to the small things. Merely from that point of view, it is a great pity that this very important debate will no longer be conducted in South Africa’s Parliament. Unfortunately I must say that the NP Government will be remembered as the Government which does not deal with problems, but tries to get away from them by selling them.

It is not only the SATS that is being “sold”, but also South West Africa. South West Africa is also being sold down the river. It seems that in the near future we are going to have auctions of the national assets everywhere, and the NP is responsible for that.

Because of the curtailment as a result of rationalisation—I shall come back to that later, but I am pleased to hear that the hon the Minister has decided to hold back a bit in this regard—more and more inhabitants of South Africa, the needy, the Third World component of South Africa, and also that of our neighbouring states, are being denied a regular, scheduled, public transport service, whether this is intended for passengers, post or freight.

Our problem is this. What we are seeing here is not really privatisation. In the advertisement the Government is showing on privatisation at present, the only example they can mention in connection with the SA Transport Services is the “Banana Express”, which they sold. That is the example they use on television. As far as we are concerned, this amounts to an avoidance of the watchdog role that Parliament should be playing with reference to the SA Transport Services. I shall leave it at that.

There was a time when the SATS compared with the best in the world. Not as much use was made of modern resources at that time as is the case at present. I want to mention an example in this connection. There was a time when a small farmer in the rural areas had a ledger account at his station against which he could have his freight charges debited. He ensured that there was a deposit, and all was well.

Now we have grandiose, gigantic computer systems and we hear about people who owe the SATS thousands of rands, and about stationmasters who are transferred as a result of accumulating debts. Other people also get large accounts— as large as this page I have here. How large is it? It is more than 18 inches by 12 inches. This large account is posted to the client every week. Do hon members know what the debit on this account is? Seven cents. Postage stamps to the value of 16 cents are paid week after week in order to post an account of seven cents.

In certain parts of the country people used to talk about the mail-train. The mail-train brought the post in the goods van of the passenger train— large bags for the towns, and private bags for individuals. One’s post arrived as regularly as clockwork. As a student in Pretoria I knew that if I posted a letter early on a Monday morning, it would reach my parents on the farm on Tuesday after having travelled by train, road transport bus and on foot. The last little section on foot was the section from the bus stop to the house.

Now, on 10 January, a letter was posted to me in Pretoria—a notice of an important meeting. That letter reached me on 20 January—the day on which the meeting was supposed to take place.

This is the result of containerisation. There is probably nothing wrong with the idea of containerisation, but the fact is that containerisation is not planned properly in advance. In Louis Trichardt, the post office had to send a freight vehicle to fetch the post in Pietersburg.

People talk about containers with a whole load of post that got lost. The delay caused by this means that the doctor in my area does not get pathological reports in time, that the industrialist does not get orders with reference to food, and that the farmer does not get his large cheque …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon member …

Sir, I am talking about the Transport Services. The hon member must please not interrupt me.

Sir, on a point of order: The hon member is talking about the postal services in a transport debate. [Interjections.]

Sir, that hon member knows just as much about order as a cricket knows about playing the violin, and he is making Parliamentary procedure look ridiculous. [Interjections.]

Cheques come late, and to a farmer this can mean a very important loss in interest on an overdrawn account. I want to request that this matter be rectified urgently, seriously and immediately. Herman Visser, who is very well known among the NP members, requested the regional agricultural union to reintroduce the Cedarberg mailcoach so that the post could reach its destination more quickly.

Another matter that I want to mention is the fact that there is no longer any main-line train service between Durban and Pretoria or Cape Town and Pretoria. Passengers have to change trains either at Germiston or on the way from Durban, at Johannesburg.

In my opinion, this is a very important denial of the status of Pretoria as the capital city. To me that is the most important point, apart from the discomfort this means to passengers—women with small children, elderly people, disabled people and so on. I really cannot see that rationalisation and economy are the important things in this case. That service to Pretoria must be investigated.

Then I look at the MPs from Pretoria. Not one of them said a word about this. I want to tell hon members that the termination of these mainline train services to Pretoria constitutes a denial of Pretoria as the capital city of South Africa.

The next matter that I want to mention concerns the fact that in his review the hon the Minister pointed out that there had been considerable improvement during the past year. As a result, he has abandoned certain plans for rationalisation. One wonders whether he did not begin to rationalise too soon and whether he did not panic too early. As a result, those train services in my area were stopped—passenger train services from Louis Trichardt to Messina, as well as passenger train services to the Lowveld. I want to request that very serious consideration be given to reintroducing these passenger services, even if not on a daily basis.

There is another very small matter that I think should be mentioned here, with regard to the baggage trollies at the airports. These fine, neat and shiny trollies stand there in rows, and are shunted around by the workers to the extent that one sometimes has to pull apart six trollies in order to disentangle them. One almost needs a team of oxen. I see the hon the Minister is looking towards his officials with interest, but this is the truth. Hon Ministers no longer move among the public and therefore do not experience these things themselves. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Soutpansberg was made of moans and complaints. He says that we are now holding a sale. If we had an auction and he was up for sale, I wonder if an offer would ever have been made for him. A person likes a lively article and not something that is inanimate.

[Interjections.] As far as the mail delivery is concerned, I think that the hon member stays in the wrong place. I live here in the Boland. If I post a letter here and I go through the tunnel, it is waiting for me when I reach the other side. [Interjections.]

There were so many complaints that I would prefer to talk about something else. If I had wanted to complain, I could have done so, but today I do not feel like complaining.

Then there are mistakes!

One day there was a train driver who never told his wife how much money he earned. Then he fell ill and his wife obtained authorisation to cash his cheque. That night she told him: “My goodness, you earned a lot of money this month, didn’t you!” To which he replied: “Yes, but you must remember that I still have to pay the stoker.” [Interjections.]

In this way many anecdotes are being lost with the phasing out of the steam era. I want to tell the hon the Minister how glad I was when it was announced on television that he had allocated money for the repair of certain steam locomotives. Here in the Western Cape we still feel grieved about the graveyard in Touws River, where the old stalwarts which helped to develop our country now stand and deteriorate. Actually Touws River consisted only of steam locomotives and a few Hugos. If the steam locomotives are gone now then all that remains are the Hugos and their numbers are also dwindling. [Interjections.]

I read in the newspaper that it is a well-known fact that thousands of steam enthusiasts visit our country annually to see our locomotives. Our country benefits greatly from these people because they are permanent friends of South Africa. I understand that the SATS has already brought in R800 000 this year with only two steam locomotives. That is what I heard and I hope I am correct. The hon the Minister and the SATS must be congratulated on their wonderful attempt to preserve these trains for South Africa. I hope that the profits will be used to repair more of them.

Rumour has it that the SATS is only going to keep a few locomotives in running order, but if I am correct about the interest in steam trains—I must inform the hon members that an international steam festival will take place in Kimberley later this year—I want to ask the hon the Minister to contradict these rumours. Our friends overseas must know that they can come and ride on our steam trains for a long time to come still. We must not allow this precious heritage to be lost. I am glad that the hon the Minister and the SATS admitted that they have a conservation task. We have a heritage here that we cannot allow to disappear, because there are hundreds of people in our country who will give anything to preserve it.

There is good-natured competition among the drivers of steam, diesel and electric locomotives. For steam drivers a diesel locomotive is a paraffin tin and an electrical unit a wire contraption. For the drivers of the latter a steam locomotive is just a stove. There are footplate staff who have not worked with steam in years and who are still of the opinion that those were the best days of their lives. Do the hon members know that there is an electrical depot where the staff restored a steam locomotive in their own time? Over a long period of time these railway employees built up a record of service of which they could be proud and one could almost say that they created a culture.

This reminds me of the stoker who went to visit an English-speaking girl and when she asked him where he worked he was ashamed to say that he was a stoker. He then said that he was a “coal forwarding agent”. She was impressed and asked: “Do you have a company vehicle?” His reaction was: “Yes, I have a driver.” [Interjections.] They were later married, lived next to the railway line and built up a family of 10 children. Their minister told them that they should be very grateful for the beautiful children. She replied that it was all the train and her husband’s doing, otherwise they would not all have been there. [Interjections.]

We on this side of the Hex River mountains are impressed with the tunnel which is going to be commissioned soon. However, I do want to ask the hon the Minister what is going to happen to the railway line over the mountain. Is it not possible for us to keep this historical railway line for steam trains in the Western Cape? On television we hear and we see how the steam trains in places such as Kimberley, Magaliesberg, Pretoria and Heidelberg take day trips. Here in the Cape, where the steam culture started, where the wine and the people and where the most of the tourists are, here we have nothing. [Interjections.] Could the hon the Minister not give us a few locomotives? I shall provide the drivers. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, the hon the previous speaker referred to steam train and the lack of them in the Cape. I want to point out to him that he is mistaken. There are of course some very famous steam trains that run in the Cape. If he actually wants to see a really progressive steam train system which runs in the Cape he must come to my constituency in Port Elizabeth Central. We will put him on the Apple Express and on the train that runs along the beach front to King’s Beach and he will have a wonderful experience. [Interjections.] I think that he should not have overlooked Port Elizabeth in his mentioning of steam trains. [Interjections.]

Order!

I want to refer to some questions I asked the hon the Minister with both his hats on. The one relates to the commuter losses on services in Johannesburg, Pretoria, Cape Town Peninsula, Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage and Durban-Pinetown during the 1988-89 year. The other question relates to the loss on bus passengers in the 1987-88 year. If one adds these two figures together one will find that there are four metropolitan areas in South Africa. In Johannesburg they spent R520 million subsidising commuter traffic, in Cape Town Peninsula R219 million was spent, in Durban-Pinetown R212 million and in Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage only R22 million. There is obviously an enormous inequity in the amount p paid out. Hon members should not forget that this comes out of the taxpayers’ money.

Now, in view of the fact that Port Elizabeth has virtually no commuter train service whatsoever, and that the buses are not running at an enormous loss, there is a problem with transporting people which the municipality of Port Elizabeth will hopefully overcome by building a light rail system in the future.

In view of the enormous discrepancies in the amount of money paid out I consider it would only be fair if the Government makes a capital sum available to Port Elizabeth at a very low or perhaps no rate of interest to put in this total system. In other words, I am suggesting that the Government should fund the light rail system in Port Elizabeth completely.

Thereafter there will very possibly be a deficit on the actual commuter service which will obviously have to be subsidised. I would go so far as to say that from the figures which have been made available by Port Elizabeth and by the officials who have investigated this matter very, very thoroughly indeed, it looks like a system that will work efficiently. I ask the hon the Minister to subsidise Port Elizabeth accordingly.

You are not so bad after all!

Thank you.

The second matter is the noise factor as far as the SAA is concerned. One is aware that jet aircraft make a very disturbing noise to people who live in the direct flight path when they come in to land and when they take off. To a large extent that is unavoidable. What is avoidable, however, is turning after one has taken off and, with engines at full throttle, moving over the city, which is what happens. This happens when they come in to land too. That does result in a noise nuisance over many of Port Elizabeth’s suburbs. [Interjections.]

My request is that the pilots are asked to get further away from the city before they turn on course for Johannesburg. I think the main problem occurs when they take off on the west-facing runway, turn to starboard and go off towards Johannesburg thereby passing over the central city.

Can I send the fuel account to you then?

I understand. I know it costs money, there is no doubt about that. It will cost money. However, I actually believe it is worth it from an SAA public relations point of view and of course from the point of view of the people of Port Elizabeth whom I happen to represent. I think they will appreciate it.

On the question of air traffic controllers which has been much in the news lately, a situation which bothers me has arisen in regard to a person in my constituency and I want to bring it to the hon the Minister’s attention. A certain gentleman who wished to be transferred as an air traffic controller from Port Elizabeth to Cape Town for family reasons applied and was turned down. He asked me to help and the application was turned down again. I got quite a long letter from the hon the Minister explaining why it could not happen. I read in the newspaper that Cape Town is short of two air traffic controllers, yet they will not give this man a job here! I quote from a letter he sent me:

As a result this man has left the service and South Africa has lost an air traffic controller. There is a very important principle here. If in fact it is true that this man was told by officials of the hon the Minister’s department that they are going to take it out on him because he contacted a member of Parliament, it is a very serious reflection on those persons and the hon the Minister should not put up with it. I believe anybody who said this to the air traffic controller should be fired from the service forthwith.

Hon members know that the air traffic controller’s job is most important. We know that an error by a air traffic controller can cost an enormous number of lives. One only needs to be reminded of the dreadful crash a number of years ago when a plane crashed into another plane on the runway. I think it happened in the Canary Islands. The strains and pressures which air traffic controllers are subjected to are therefore tiring and nerve-racking.

They deserve to be paid well and they deserve to be relieved at regular intervals. I believe the recent increases given by the hon the Minister will go a considerable way towards overcoming the problem. However, I think their remuneration should be considered again at a very early stage because even with the latest increases there is still a case to be made out for more increases for air traffic controllers and for better working conditions in terms of the number of hours that they have to work.

Finally, there is a item in the Brown Book about a new programme for the conversion of various SAA aircraft in certain respects. One of these relates to an amount of half a million rand which apparently is to be spent on helping to prevent smoking in the toilets of the aircraft of the SAA. I would like to call that the Hartzenberg factor. It just shows what people who do not obey the rules can cost the South African public.

Mr Chairman, I do not want to react to the previous speaker, but with regard to what he said about the racket which is being made by the aeroplanes in Port Elizabeth and which is bothering the people, I just want to say that we are also sometimes troubled with loud noises here, but we nevertheless live with them.

A great deal has already been said in this debate about the fact that this Budget is being discussed in the old way for the last time. I do not wish to speak about that, but I should rather like to congratulate the hon the Minister and his top management. They are prepared to drastically change the entire system of the SATS, which have been so familiar to us over the years. They are going to reform it by privatising and deregulating it. This is going to be a mammoth task. It is a very important step and the scope of this and everything it will entail, is almost too great for the general public to comprehend. We have peace of mind, however, because we know that thorough research has been conducted into this reform. A great deal of thought was most certainly put into it before the decision was made to take this important step. That is why I want to compliment the hon the Minister and his officials on this great project which they are prepared to undertake. They have the expertise and I have no doubts about the success which they will ultimately achieve.

I want to refer to what the hon the Minister mentioned when he introduced the Budget, namely that a working agreement had been concluded with his approximately 1 000 top officials in terms of which they had committed themselves to making a success of the new system. The most important aspect, however, is that they are going to forfeit the privileges which they enjoy as ordinary public servants. They are forgoing the protection which public servants enjoy in order to go and work under a new system. We can only congratulate them on that and thank them for it.

This working agreement that they have concluded is so important that I want to recommend it to other government departments. It would be a good thing if they would also consider this, because in my view it means a great deal to the general public to know that public servants are prepared to forgo those privileges. I am tempted to say that we should give them a round of applause. [Interjections.]

I also want to say something about the railways as we have always known them. They are still the railways, which have now simply being given a better name, namely the SATS.

The railways are not something that were developed here in our country; they were developed overseas during the previous century. They were imported here as a proven method of goods and passenger transportation. We laid railway lines and put the railways into commission, and we are doing some good work.

It is clear that railway lines were not laid in a hasty fashion. This was done systematically as the need for them arose. The hon member for Wellington mentioned how important they were for them in that environment. However, he was not present when the train ran to Wellington for the first time. I believe it was a special day, but I want to refer to an equally important day.

In 1895 the North was linked to the South by way of the bridge that was built over the Vaal River, from which the railway line ran all the way to Pretoria. I was not there either. [Interjections.] There were not really very many people there on that day. The portrait which was later painted of this event, a large copy of which is hanging in the office of the station master at Vereeniging, shows that there were approximately 30 people present. It was such an important event, and yet there were so few people present. However, the State Presidents of the two Afrikaans republics, Presidents Steyn and Paul Kruger, were present.

Before this event Pretoria did, in fact, possess a railway line to Delagoa Bay—now known as Maputo. Large quantities of goods destined for the rapidly growing gold-mining town of Johannesburg were transported along that line. Many of the requirements were, however, conveyed by ox-wagon from Kimberley, where the railway line from the South ended, as well as from Durban. Hon members will therefore understand that the railway line that was built in 1895 was a very important factor. It presented a far easier way of getting goods to Johannesburg.

Life did not stand still, however. There was development, although the intervening Anglo-Boer War hampered the development of our country a little. The SA Railways assured that as towns developed, they were linked by a railway line wherever possible. Where it was not possible to lay a railway line, a railway bus service was introduced, with the result that a transport service was rendered even to those people in the remote areas of our country. We also provided our neighbouring countries with railway services. Even today they still enjoy the services which we possess.

Unfortunately, many of the branch lines which were laid at great expense, are falling into disuse today. People no longer wish to make use of the railway service; everyone is changing over to road transport. This is probably understandable, because it is the modern day requirement. I wish I could agree with the idea the hon member for Roodepoort expressed, namely that we should go back to the old train service system, because the train services are able to meet the needs of the country. Unfortunately this is impossible; it is no longer viable. Trade has expanded, and the SATS simply does not possess the necessary capacity to deal with the tremendous volume of traffic. That is why we shall simply have to accept that road transport has come to stay and that it is going to undergo even further expansion. We are going to find even more of those heavy vehicles which we do not like on our roads, because that is the trend, and I believe it will continue.

I trust that the good service which we are used to the SATS rendering, will persist under the new dispensation. I have no doubt that they have good intentions and that they will make a great success of it. They are going to attract increasingly large quantities of transport goods back to the Transport Services. Goods are going to be transported by rail or by means of the SATS’s road transport division. The Transport Services are to retain their large share in the railways, and they are going to make a success of them. I wish them every success and I thank them for the great effort they are putting into making a success of the SATS, which has before now been charged with being bankrupt, since additional funds are requested every year and all one ever hears is talk of shortfalls. This is not because they wanted it this way, but because this is how conditions have unfortunately developed. This state of affairs must come to an end, and the new system will be of great significance to our country in future.

Mr Chairman, two evenings ago a mixed passenger train arrived at Nigel. There were two very important passengers on this train, namely the hon the Minister of National Education and former Minister Hendrik Schoeman, as well as a number of other passengers. These two gentlemen arrived there on the instructions of eight East Rand constituencies and two Vaal Triangle constituencies to address almost 600 NP supporters. [Interjections.] The train was awaited by a fleet of taxis and buses—it looked like a Sabta meeting— which had to transport elderly people from the entire East Rand to a political meeting which was to be addressed by the national leader of the NP in the Transvaal. I just want to say that if ten constituencies attract 600 spectators, the CP has cleaned up the East Rand. [Interjections.]

The only positive consequence of this meeting was the announcement of the hon the State President …

Order! The hon member is now discussing something which has nothing to do with this appropriation. The hon member may proceed.

Mr Chairman, I should like to refer to former Minister Hendrik Schoeman, seeing that he is actually the “clown prince” of the Transvaal, and he said that the hon the State President should retire. [Interjections.] Of course he did so on the instructions of the hon member for Springs.

I should now like to confine myself to the appropriation under discussion, and want to refer firstly to the home-ownership scheme under head 10, with a voted amount of R270 million. However, I could not get information anywhere indicating how much money had been spent in the previous financial year, and it was therefore difficult to determine whether or not the present voted amount of R270 million exceeded the previous year’s appropriations. Nor could I determine how the previous year’s funds had been spent with regard to how much money had been used for White housing or for the housing of other race-groups. Nor could I ascertain whether that year’s appropriation was able to satisfy the demand.

It did come to my attention that certain White workers had to wait several months and even years for finality to be reached before they could get a loan. What is more Whites cannot be assisted if they apply for loans to build their own homes. They are compelled to use registered builders and can therefore not achieve any savings by building the house themselves. There are, after all, institutions such as the building inspectorate of a local town council which can see to it that the prescribed standards and regulations are complied with. The SATS also has the necessary trained people who can exercise the necessary control.

However, when it comes to applications for loans for the Coloured population, they are finalised and approved within a few months. Can the hon the Minister please explain why finality with regard to Whites who apply for loans cannot be speeded up? I also want to know from him why Coloureds who are granted loans enjoy the benefit of being allowed to build their own homes. Nor are any restrictions placed on the time in which a house must be completed. Holders of loans build in their free time—usually over week-ends or when they are on leave. The selfhelp building scheme is also subject to supervision to ensure that the prescribed provisions are complied with. This supervisor is usually a White in the employ of the SATS who is also compelled to do the necessary inspections in his free time. In other words supervisors are compelled to work overtime.

The two aspects I have mentioned here, namely the time which it takes to allocate a loan to Whites compared with the time in the case of people of colour, and the fact that people of colour are allowed to undertake selfhelp building schemes while Whites are not, are in my opinion extremely discriminatory and should be put right by the hon the Minister. The benefit of a selfhelp building scheme, namely the saving which can be achieved, should also be available to the Whites.

Another aspect which serves as an example is the amount allocated for a loan to build a house. My information is that a Coloured labourer with a monthly net income of R540 qualifies for a home loan of R52 000 at an interest rate of between 1,5% and 2%—I am not quite sure whether it is 1,5% or 2%—but the monthly payment of a White may not exceed one-third of his salary and the loan is at an interest rate of 5%. I am asking the hon the Minister to look into this too, because 1 believe that this is also discriminatory.

In the new dispensation which the Government is endeavouring to establish for the SATS, it is clear that the success of the undertaking will depend on the effective managerial ability and the composition of the management. Their managerial expertise will be fairly thoroughly tested in the years ahead. No undertaking can succeed if the work force is not looked after properly so that it can be a happy group of people. According to my information a large number of the work force are uncertain about their future in the SATS. The behaviour of control officers is destroying their confidence in the administration.

I should like to refer to certain worries, particularly of the maintenance staff of the Salt River division. The first worry is the oral agreement entered into with the work force to increase production, reduce costs and accept additional responsibility for additional monetary compensation. In spite of the fact that the work force has made its contribution and the hon the Minister has admitted that production has increased, this undertaking has not become a reality.

Secondly, one third of the work force has been deprived of their profit bonus and nothing tangible has been offered in its place. Thirdly, talk of the expropriation of accumulated leave without compensation is making the work force unhappy. Fourthly, why are artisans’ posts being reduced, while clerical staff are being increased? Fifthly, in East London electricians with long years of service and permanent appointments have now had to sign a three-year contract, but may possibly lose their jobs after the contract expires, whereas the original contract which was entered into did not contain such a provision. [Interjections.]

I am speaking in all earnestness, because none of the hon members over there talked about the railway workers. The ordinary railway workers are dissatisfied and here I have two letters written by people who said that they were worried. I am quoting from one of the letters lying here in front of me:

He goes on to say:

He goes on to say:

I am quoting to hon members what people from the railways have written to me and I should also like to bring this to the attention of the hon the Minister. [Interjections.] I am continuing to quote:

All the said objections by the workers clearly indicate that White workers feel that they are being discriminated against. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members are conversing too loudly. The hon member for Nigel may proceed.

Mr Chairman, I appeal to the hon the Minister to give sympathetic consideration to the work force’s concerns about its future and to eliminate them, for the sake of the efficient provision of services by the SATS.

Mr Chairman, I have listened to the inoffensive speech of the hon member for Nigel. It amazes me that he is now playing on the feelings of the ordinary railway worker, whilst so far in this debate the CP has done nothing other than to attempt, by way of a veiled attack on the hon the Minister, to get at the top management of the SATS. It is those people—the management team of the SATS, who are daily confronted with the sinking value of the rand—who are receiving a slap in the face. It is nothing less than an offensive reference to responsible officials. If the CP maintain that the case of Mr Pity Lewis was an embarrassment to them, they have yet to see what this debate will ultimately produce for them.

I should like to confine myself to a further matter. It relates to Hilton, a residential area in Bloemfontein, in which the SATS own large tracts of land. A large portion of the SATS’s fixed assets are situated in Hilton. Hilton is an area which presently consists partly of residential units, light industries and unoccupied areas. The area is situated very close to the city centre, and the old main road to the north used to run through it. Hilton was formerly a prestige area with beautiful houses on large plots. However, as the shunting yards of the then South African Railways expanded in that direction, the black smoke and the noise of the steam locomotives had a retarding effect. The high school was moved, depopulation set in, and the trend was one of decline.

In recent times some of the fixed assets of the SATS in this area have no longer been required for transport purposes, and some 30 hectares of the properties have become surplus to requirements. The SATS have demolished the buildings, and unsightly conditions have developed. I asked the hon the Minister two years ago to take certain steps so that steam locomotives in the shunting yards could be replaced. It is a pleasure for me to be able to say that the hon the Minister replied that we must give him five years in which to put things in order and set matters to rights. It is with great gratitude and appreciation that I can say that steam locomotives disappeared from that area a year afterwards. Only one remained, and the rest were replaced by diesel units. My sincere gratitude and appreciation on behalf of the inhabitants of Hilton go to the hon the Minister and the SATS in general. [Interjections.]

Plans to extend the shunting yards even further in that direction have also been abandoned. Since then there have been various discussions between the regional director of the SATS, Mr Uys, and the town council. As a result of these discussions a symposium was held very recently to which various interested groups, such as industrialists and developers, were invited. Before 1986 the Transport Services legislation did not provide for the private development of the properties of the SATS. Legislation has, however, been adjusted in the interim and development for commercial purposes is now possible. The SATS are now also about to be converted into a market-oriented undertaking and it has consequently become necessary to make better use of those fixed assets which are not being adequately utilised, in order to generate a greater income.

Various possibilities were suggested by the SATS in an impressive and vivid manner at this symposium. Reference was made to medium-density housing, for example by way of duplex and simplex units, and light industries, in which regard a few industrialists have already seen the potential and have accordingly begun to systematically occupy the area. The prospect of dwellings around a recreation area was also held out, as well as that of a retirement village and attractive residential areas. Everything was vividly represented in certain regions into which the Hilton area had been divided for the purposes of development. Unfortunately a slight misunderstand exists with regard to the rights of ownership of this land. It has, for example, been incorrectly stated that rights of ownership will never be transferred to the purchaser of such land, and that when a purchaser dies, the land reverts to the SATS.

In any event, the actual position with regard to the fixed assets of the SATS is as follows. The SATS prefer to rent the assets on a long-term basis, long enough to give the investor an opportunity to recoup his capital investment and to make a good profit. Furthermore, the lease of a lessee forms an asset in his estate.

The second guideline is that the SATS obtain development rights in the form of concessions used via the town council, and in fact for a specific type of development. The developer’s input is that of further development, whilst the input of the SATS is the fixed asset and the development rights which they have acquired.

Lastly, the final guideline is that the ground should be sold voetstoots for, inter alia, residential or commercial purposes, and that such a developer should then rezone it himself.

There are three essential and supplementary elements present in the development of the Hilton area. Firstly, there is Councillor Strohfeldt, who has made it his life’s work to uplift the area, and who is making exceptional progress in his efforts. The second is the local distribution newspaper of Die Volksblad, namely Ons Stad, a newspaper which is very widely read and which promotes the interests of the city of Bloemfontein in a manner which no one can equal. This newspaper has given great prominence to the Hilton area, as well as to the symposium of the SATS in Bloemfontein.

The third component is Mr Johan Uys, regional director of the SATS in Bloemfontein. Ons Stad has nominated Mr Uys as “Bloemfonteiner of the Year”, an award which is made to that person who consistently improves Bloemfontein’s image and who renders exceptional service to the city. The fact that Mr Uys has received this honour this year, is very clear proof of the calibre of people in the SATS.

Speaking about calibre, let us come back now to the average worker in the SATS … [Interjections.] … Let us come back to them, and then I shall tell hon members what happened in that municipal election there. In the municipal election the CP employed politically unethical, politically illegal and intimidatory action. It did them no good, however. It was the NP’s candidate via the action committee, Mr Strohfeldt, who, with regard to the CP’s …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I should like to know under which Schedule the hon member is speaking.

Order! The hon member for Bloemfontein North is discussing the Budget.

I am discussing the point “Recreation” of the SATS. The election was a part … [Interjections.]

Order! Really, the hon member must come back to the Schedule under discussion. [Interjections.] The hon member for Nigel does not give order rulings.

I shall come back to the Schedule under discussion. [Interjections.]

The average workers are of just as high a calibre as the management team, because the average workers in Bloemfontein, in the Hilton area, simply do not allow themselves to be misled by the CP’s misleading political trends. In that respect we may extend a great vote of thanks to the SATS, who recognise the calibre of these people and who are addressing their needs, and by so doing also meeting a very important need and filling a very important gap in Bloemfontein. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Bloemfontein North must please excuse me for not reacting to his argument. He spoke, in particular, about matters in his own constituency.

I should like to speak to the hon the Minister about the two subjects I broached yesterday. I can understand the hon the Minister not having had time to reply to me. That is regrettable, because I should have liked to debate the matter with him since I am sure his answers are going to be wrong. I would have liked to set him straight again. [Interjections.] I should like to reiterate a few of the points I made, however, in the hope that in his reply, after the discussion of the schedules, we can hear a bit more about that.

The first question relates to Transmed. Yesterday I made the statement that Transmed was probably the most discriminatory medical aid fund in South Africa. I should like the hon the Minister to give his attention to that aspect. I want to tell him that what we have heard from the hon the Minister about the elimination of discrimination, parity in salaries, the appointment of people to very responsible posts, for example as pilots on our aircraft, has created a situation which makes it extremely important to eliminate these aspects.

It is with great satisfaction that I note, when I am travelling, that an increasing number of young Coloured, Indian and Black women are being employed as air hostesses. We are very grateful for this manifestation. We also see the other appointments that are being made, inter alia that of an Indian pilot.

I feel that if these people are doing that important work, and in their jobs are judged on equal terms with Whites and are paid equal salaries, the SATS does not have the right to have a medical aid fund that discriminates against them. [Interjections.] There is not merely a small degree of discrimination, but in fact a very serious degree of discrimination. I pointed this out to the hon the Minister yesterday.

It is not only against the member, but also against his dependents that Transmed discriminates, and this is simply not acceptable. I cannot see why a Coloured air hostess cannot have the same medical benefits as a White air hostess. [Interjections.] At the moment she does not have the right to choose her own doctor and is not permitted to go to a private hospital if she cannot pay for this herself. Nor can I understand why, if she is married, her family only qualifies for Transmed benefits after five years.

I am aware of the problems, and we know it would cost money, but there are other ways in which money is wasted, as my colleague, the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central, pointed out in connection with the foreign exchange losses. I think that if it is true that there is not enough money available to accommodate these people, the White workers should have slightly fewer facilities and pay a bit more for their medical services so that there can be definite parity and the Transmed management can make changes in regard to this important aspect.

I do not think there is any other medical aid fund in South Africa that does this. I do not think the medical aid funds of the Police or the Post Office are run on the same lines. This morning I want to ask the hon the Minister to do something about that. I know it is difficult, but this situation is unacceptable and something must be done about it.

Secondly, yesterday I again spoke about smoking. I just want to speak to the hon the Minister about this for a few minutes. What is involved here is specifically the smoking advertisements on railway premises and the fact that smoking is permitted at airports and on stations. [Interjections.]

What about smoking on the moon? [Interjections.]

I will not allow myself to be side-tracked by such absolutely inane remarks. [Interjections.]

Yesterday we read in the newspapers about the figures Dr John Sonnenberg quoted in connection with the consequences of smoking in South Africa. In South Africa 29 000 people die each year as a result of smoking-related diseases. That is what he indicated. If a fully laden Boeing Jumbo jet crashed every five days, killing everyone, it would mean that a Boeing would have to crash every five minutes in South Africa to kill 29 000 people. That is a tremendous … [Interjections.] Go to Boksburg; there is enough trouble there!

That is a big problem. [Interjections.] Looking at hon members sitting here, I can read off their death certificates. Of those sitting here, 50% will die of heart disease, 20% will dies of cancer, 10% as a result of a stroke, the other 10% will die of what I shall die of: I shall be killed by a jealous husband at the age of 105. [Interjections.] I think hon members are jealous of me because of the way I am going to die. [Interjections.] Eighty per cent of hon members here will have the following inscribed on their death certificates: “Smoking-related diseases.”

We are all aware of this problem. I want to ask the hon the Minister whether it is right for a Government department, to which millions of people come annually, to advertise death. It does everything in its power to keep death off its aircraft, the railways and roads, but it advertises one of the major causes of death in our country. I do not think it is right for a Government department to display such advertisements when we are doing so much to stop people smoking.

Lastly, let me say that non-smokers have the right, in that hon Minister’s waiting-rooms, to have sections in which they can sit without other people’s smoke bothering them. Here in Cape Town we have two Springbok waiting-rooms, one for non-smokers and one for smokers. It is a pleasure to enter a waiting-room in which no one is smoking. If someone wants to smoke himself to death, it is his own affair. In some cases, when they bother me, I simply feel like setting a match to them so that they can smoke themselves to death there and then.

What I should like is to have those who do not smoke being given a chance to enjoy the hon the Minister’s facilities without having to put up with people who are smoking. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I should like to congratulate the hon the Minister of Transport Affairs, his Deputy Minister and the personnel of the SATS on the brilliant way in which they manage this administration.

There are two aspects I should like to highlight. Firstly this administration serves as an example to the private sector, thanks to the elimination of racial discrimination. We are proud of its tremendous diversity of services and functions. Secondly I want to thank them and pay tribute to them for their efficient management which has placed each division on a profitable footing.

Thanks to new techniques in the packing and transportation of goods, and also historical factors, the SATS has considerable unutilised property in our harbour areas. In its far-sightedness it has therefore decided to appoint the Burggraaf Commission for the better utilisation of the harbour areas for recreational purposes. The harbour area of East London, under the control of the SATS, has space in which to provide recreational and residential facilities.

†I have discussed the matter of the East London harbour with the hon members for East London North and King William’s Town and they agree with me on this point. [Interjections.] In order to promote East London as a holiday and tourist venue the East London harbour is ideally situated for yachting, boating, fresh sea food restaurants, hotel facilities and sporting activities such as scuba diving, sailing, training schools, rowing and boat trips. On the eastern pier of the harbour a hotel can be built. Next to this the beautiful Orient beach, encircled by the blue water of the Indian Ocean, sunny coasts and lucrative fishing opportunities, will make this hotel better than any other in the southern hemisphere.

South Africa is fast becoming a sea-faring nation, with watersports becoming one of the fastest growing industries in the country. The upgrading of these facilities will attract the yachting fraternity. Furthermore it will motivate yacht owners to keep their yachts in the harbour. With improved boating facilities, East London will attract provincial, national and international deepsea fishing competitions.

Some of these existing buildings are not being utilised at the moment and it may be possible that they can be used for the storage of boats and dinghies, or for the establishment of a marine museum.

*Agreement can be reached with the Navy on whose land three cannons are situated, so that a museum can be established on the Navy’s land. At the moment there are a large variety of marine antiquities stored in the harbour area. There is also a wooden quay in the harbour, one of the few still in existence in South Africa. It must be preserved for posterity. [Interjections.] This museum could become one of East London’s tourist attractions, but such a commercial and recreational development needs a residential component to help finance it so that taxpayers do not need to make a contribution. Such a residential area could accommodate tourists and holidaymakers, something which in turn could be used to sustain the surrounding commercial and recreational area. Development such as this, and the beautiful beaches and scenic beauty, could make East London one of the major tourist and holiday attractions in Southern Africa. I should like to ask the Burggraaf Commission to publish its report as quickly as possible.

I want to touch upon a matter that affects the Albany constituency. The passenger service from Alicedale via Grahamstown to Port Alfred which stops at several smaller railway sidings, has been withdrawn by the Department of Transport. I understand the situation very clearly, because passenger services incur the greatest losses, but the good strain has a passenger coach. Is it not possible to accommodate passengers in this coach? There is a clerk who serves on this train. He could act as ticket-examiner so that there is no extra cost involved. I have already made such a request to the department and I ask the department to reconsider.

I should also like to congratulate Mr I F Jansen, the station-master at Alicedale, on being awarded the C Moffat trophy. This is awarded to the best-kept station in the Republic. The SATS can be proud of officials such as Mr Jansen.

Before I conclude, let me come back to the hon member for Nigel. This morning he made certain claims here, amongst other things, about White officials of the Transport Services paying more tax than officials of colour. I myself have received these complaints from certain officials of the SATS. I investigated the matter and asked for proof. More than a year has now gone by and I have not as yet obtained any proof. Let me say that this is a bit of CP gossip-mongering. [Interjections.] This is scandalous, because even now they still cannot furnish the proof.

Along these lines I should like to support the Transport Services Appropriation Bill.

Mr Chairman, it was a pleasure to listen to hon members who raised various points of view here in short speeches. I just want to refer to a few hon members in the few minutes at my disposal.

Firstly, I want to refer to the hon member for Soutpansberg. He said that it was a pity that this was the last Transport Services Appropriation. I agree with him. I am also sorry about that, but one must never allow one’s sense of regret to triumph over one’s common sense. That is the basic difference between the hon member and myself. We are dealing with the realities of the moment. For this reason we must do things which suit the South Africa of today. It is no good the hon member becoming nostalgic about his letters which were delivered to his house on time on foot. The fact is that the Transport Services and South Africa have moved into a different era of transport to the one they were in years ago. I must honestly say that I think the day this Parliament changed the status quo that had prevailed for 75 years, was a red-letter day. The Transport Services are not being privatised by this Bill—the hon member is quite correct—but they are moving squarely into a business atmosphere. That is what South Africa needs now. It does not need a service which provides socio-economic services, or which regards that as its chief function. It did those things well, but now we need a business.

Business suspended at 12h45 and resumed at 14h15.

Afternoon sitting

You might just as well abolish Parliament; see how few of your people are here! [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, while the hon member is talking in that way, I just want to mention that the hon gentleman whom I wish to address now is not present either. Where is he? [Interjections.]

The hon member for Soutpansberg referred to certain main-line trains which are no longer running. He referred in particular to the train between Cape Town and Pretoria. One of the reasons is that times have changed. There are inter-city bus services which transport one far more quickly and cheaply. There are air services. There are special flights which one can utilise at a 50% discount. They take a few hours, while one pays double the price by train and the journey takes ten times as long. This is the change that we are dealing with. This is the changed business environment in which we live. It is pointless trying to return to the past. What I do want to say to the hon member is that there was never a direct inter-city train service between Pretoria and Cape Town. It only went as far as Johannesburg, where coaches which were going to Pretoria had to be uncoupled in any case.

The Trans Karoo coaches went through to Pretoria.

That is correct. However, the Blue Train is still running.

For those who can afford it.

Yes, but the Blue Train is doing very well. It has increased the coverage of its expenses from a very low level to approximately 90%. I can tell the hon member that there is a great demand for the more luxurious compartments in particular.

The fares are going up in April.

This is because our exchange rate is so low that it is cheap for foreigners.

Order! A dialogue cannot be allowed.

The hon member referred to the trolleys at airports; that is a minor detail which he mentioned as well. I agree with the hon member whole-heartedly. I have experienced it myself, and I also wondered why the things stick to one another in that way. That is actually Civil Aviation’s department, and I think it is in fact a service which the private sector is rendering. Nevertheless, we shall look into it.

†The hon member for Port Elizabeth Central referred to the commuter service in Port Elizabeth and in particular to a light rail system for Port Elizabeth. I have been looking into this matter and I think the hon member can bring it up when the Transport Vote comes up for discussion. It is not really a matter for the SATS but concerns the Department of Transport. The hon member can bring it up then. I am quite positively disposed towards the suggestion and we can discuss it under that Vote.

The hon member also referred to the noise near the airport at Port Elizabeth. He probably realizes that fuel considerations are responsible for the present flight patterns but we shall investigate the possibility of eliminating that noise as much as possible during the hours of darkness. We will look into the matter.

The hon member referred to a voter in his constituency, an air traffic controller, who wrote to him and revealed that certain threats had been made or had supposedly been made against him. I agree with the hon member that any member of the public has the right to appeal to his representative in Parliament. I grant him that. He has given me the letter and I will go into the matter.

*The member for Worcester made a plea for steam trains. I shall send him a copy of the statement that I issued this morning. It is a big business. I have been informed that approximately 5 million steam enthusiasts belong to the world organisation, and South Africa is one of the Meccas of the steam enthusiasts.

The hon member asked whether we could possibly consider using the railway line, which runs through the railway tunnel in the Hex River Mountains, for steam locomotives. I do not know whether that is possible, but we are looking for possible candidates here in the Western Cape. I want to say that the railway line between Paarl and Franschhoek is also a possible candidate. I thank the hon member for his contribution. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Bloemfontein North referred to the utilisation and development of assets. I thank the hon member for drawing attention to this subject. The SATS has a property division which deals with these very matters. I noticed that he knew what he was talking about in this regard. I should like to thank him for drawing our attention to the fact that the regional manager of Bloemfontein, Mr Johan Uys, was chosen as “Bloemfonteiner of the Year”. We are really very proud of him, because we know that famous personalities have already received this award, and the fact that he received it, is something which we can really be proud of. I thank him for his contribution. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Parktown raised two matters here, namely Transmed and the discrimination in that regard. We do not in any way deny that discrimination still exists in Transmed. That is an open matter. We are aware of it. We are admitting it openly. We are saying that there are still differences between Transmed and the SATS which we are working on in co-operation with the trade unions.

That, then, is why I told the hon member yesterday that he was paternalistic, because people who are being directly affected by this are talking to us in this regard. I therefore want to ask the hon member to be careful with regard to these matters. We do not need to arouse emotions in this regard. That is not necessary. This is receiving the attention that it deserves, because I agree with him that it would be far better if we could eliminate it.

However, I do have some good news for him. We have already made progress in this regard. We have only made a little progress, but at least we have made progress. The SAA personnel whom he mentioned, the air hostesses and the pilot whom we appointed, are already enjoying parity. That is one small area in which we have already achieved parity. The hon member referred to smoking and its disadvantages. In fact he stood here and told us what was going to happen to us. He stood here and pronounced the death penalty upon all of us. While he said that life was so dangerous, he omitted to tell us, however, that it seems that people are living longer. The hon member should at least have told us that as well.

How is it possible that in the face of all these dangers which threaten us, people are living longer? [Interjections.]

With regard to restrictions on smoking, I want to tell the hon member that we are already doing this wherever possible. An example of this is D F Malan airport where there are two lounges which we could reserve for smokers and non-smokers respectively.

Of course, the hon member has also stepped down from his throne a little, because last year he asked me to prohibit smoking at all airports. He has now become slightly more practical. He is now asking me to implement smoke-free zones. [Interjections.] Wherever it is possible, we are already applying this and we shall apply it further where it becomes possible.

With regard to the question of advertising, I want to say that I happened to hear a woman talking about smoking on Monitor, I think it was, while I was eating my health food this morning. She is an expert on human behaviour. She said that no one would stop smoking because everyone told them it was unhealthy. However, one would be able to motivate a woman to stop smoking by telling her that the smoke was detracting from the smell of her perfume. That would motivate a woman to stop smoking, but no one stops smoking or drinking simply because they are told that it is bad for their health.

That is incorrect.

That is what that woman said. Then again, the hon member enjoys arguing with women. I think he simply has to participate in the program. [Interjections.] I am merely calling it arguing.

One of these days you will still stop advertising it.

No, there I cannot agree with the hon member. That is a business transaction with the SATS. We deal with contractors who do that work for us. Therefore, I cannot concede that point to the hon member.

You are advertising death.

And people are living longer! [Interjections.]

I thank the hon member for Meyerton for his speech. He expressed great confidence in the management of the SATS. I can assure him that it is not misplaced. He rightly referred to the 1 000 top officials who were placed under contract. It is the same contract, with more or less the same conditions, that is entered into in the private sector. The fact that these top officials were prepared to sign the contract without objection, proves just how motivated they are to make a success of the SATS, because they are really signing away their job security. I do not think that the hon member made an inappropriate remark when he said that other Government departments should perhaps also consider that.

The hon member said that road transport had come to stay. With the high costs of the building and maintenance of roads, it is very important that the railway services are absolutely prepared and in a position to compete effectively with roads, in order to get back as much goods transport as possible. I have no doubt that the train services will make their presence felt in the future with regard to bulk transport over long distances. Hon members can be sure of that.

The hon member for Albany referred to a matter in his constituency, namely the possible development of the harbour in East London and the investigation into tourism which we are going to carry out there. He asked that the Burggraaf investigation be speeded up. As hon members are aware, we are already developing the harbour in Cape Town in conjunction with the private sector. This is being done with a view to tourism in particular. As hon members are aware, we are making good progress. Cape Town will serve as our pilot project, and if we see that we are progressing well here, we will speed up the process in other areas such as Port Elizabeth, East London and Durban. I thank the hon member for his contribution.

In that order! [Interjections.]

The hon member for Nigel referred to the housing fund and, if I understood him correctly, alleged that discrimination against Whites was taking place. I have the figures here. In the 1988-89 financial year, we spent R186 million on White housing, R121 million on Black housing, R28,6 million on Coloured housing and R5 million on Indian housing. In the 1989-90 financial year, we are budgeting for R165 million for White housing, R18 million for Coloured housing, R82 million for Black housing and R5 million for Indian housing. The important point is that 64% of the Whites already have housing. The percentage for the other population groups is 20%.

The question of self-help building schemes was also raised by the hon member. In fact we are at present conducting an experiment with regard to self-help building projects among people from other population groups. We also tried this with regard to Whites, but found that it did not work very well. A White person takes too long to build and as a result tends to neglect his work. For example, he makes his telephone calls during working hours and the matter distracts him too much. We therefore found that the experiment was not successful.

The hon member also touched on several other matters, for example with regard to administration and other employment opportunities. If he wants to give me more details, I should be glad to reply to him administratively.

Debate concluded.

Schedules agreed to.

Second Reading debate

Mr Chairman, in a previous debate the hon member for Worcester said I was complaining because I lived in the wrong place. I want to tell him that this petty regional chauvinism and provincialism, which is rampant among him and his colleagues, is one of the things which is strangling South Africa. [Interjections.] It is quite clear that that hon member does not know or care what is going on in the rest of South Africa—not even at the airports in South Africa. [Interjections.]

Order! There is too much talking going on in the House. Hon members are conversing too loudly. The hon member may proceed.

Mr Chairman, I was not being nostalgic when I spoke about the post which was transported by rail, by road and on foot. The point I made was that, 30 years ago, if that letter was posted on Monday, it reached its destination on the Tuesday. Now that letter is posted—this is not an exception or one unfortunate incident either—and, after rationalisation, it takes 10 days for that letter from Pretoria to reach the same destination. [Interjections.] That hon member must investigate the matter. This is a country-wide complaint, and owing to containerisation there are major problems with post which is sometimes urgent.

I am glad I can say something about the main line trains. A passenger can no longer travel directly from the coast, for example from Durban or Cape Town, to Pretoria; he must change trains. This was not always the case. I frequently travelled by train. The carriages to Cape Town, the Trans Karoo carriages and those to Durban eventually ended up in Pretoria. I think this matter requires our attention.

I now come to the economy of train transportation. The hon the Minister has complained about its non-affordability. I already told his predecessor that the Railways had priced themselves out of the business. That is the trouble. While I am discussing this, and seeing that we have now heard that road transportation is the transportation of the future, the hon the Minister can tell me that this is not the time to talk about it—it falls under the transport vote. However, I am talking about it because it concerns the replacement of rail transportation. The roads are not yet ready to replace rail transportation. The road surfaces are being ruined by heavy vehicles, and elsewhere it is extremely dangerous to travel on the roads, owing to the fact that there is no longer rail transportation.

I asked the hon the Minister of National Education to be here. Apparently he cannot be here, and I understand that. The fact that he is not here draws attention to the absence of Ministers in Parliament on a day like this. This absence of hon members from a debate like this is disgraceful. Where are they? One possibility is that they have all gone to the Wilderness. Except for the four candidates who were at Tuynhuys yesterday, the others have probably gone to the Wilderness to express their loyalty. The other possibility is that they have gone on a fishing expedition.

At present South Africa is in the position—and as far as I am concerned this is topical to this debate—that it is trapped by a stagnation in the NP which is prejudicing the running of the entire country. There is a question facing the country as to who is governing and who is determining the policy. In the past we had brother-in-law Jan, and now we have cousin Piet. Cousin Piet is the hon member for Springs. Cousin Piet says that cousin FW—ie the hon the Minister of National Education—is determining the policy. That is news to me, because in the NPI belonged to the party and the congress determined its policy. Now the national leader of the party determines the policy. Now I want to ask the hon Ministers—who are unfortunately not here—whether they agree with that. This concerns policy, and that is why we are discussing it in this debate.

In your party the AWB determines the policy! [Interjections.]

The hon member for Parys is one of the hon members who is sitting here for the last time. If there is an election in the near future we are going to show him a thing or two. [Interjections.]

According to the CP’s constitution the congress determines the policy, as is traditionally the case in South Africa. What is happening in South Africa at the moment? A former Minister of Transport spoke in Nigel on Wednesday evening. That hon Minister is known for two things, namely that when he is serious people think he is joking and when he is joking people think he is serious. He said the following, and I think that coming from a former colleague of the present hon State President, a man who ate out of the hon the State President’s hand when it suited him, it was not really in good taste. He said that the hon the State President should give the national leader of the NP a chance, for the sake of the NP. The hon national leader of the NP’s hands are tied if he is not the State President.

Now I want to ask the other candidates for the national leadership as well: Is it a fait accompli that the national leader of the NP is going to become the State President? It does not really seem to be a fait accompli. It does not seem to me as if the hon the State President is sure who he should talk to either. Yesterday, for example, he spoke to the hon the Acting State President, who was an aspirant candidate, the national leader of the NP, who was the successful candidate, the hon the Minister of Finance, who was an aspirant candidate, and the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs, who was an aspirant candidate. However, he did not speak to any other hon Ministers.

The business here in Parliament and the decisions being taken are at this stage placing South Africa in a position of stagnation owing to the in-fighting and inability to take decisions resulting from the problems in the NP. I think the reason why I wanted the hon the Minister of National Education to be here was to ask him whether he agreed that he was there because he was the leader, a policy-maker, because this is a political debate. Seeing that this concerns the former Minister of Transport Affairs, I can discuss it.

Sakkie will never understand it!

He will never understand it.

He only knows Issie Kramer!

According to Die Burger Mr Schoeman made listeners to Radio 702 sit bolt upright with surprise yesterday evening, when he remarked that President Botha was a good man but that South Africa now wanted a young man to take charge. Elsewhere he said: “FW for president”.

I want to ask the hon the Minister of National Education—unfortunately he is not in the House this afternoon—for apparently he spoke after Mr Hendrik Schoeman: Did the hon Minister thank Mr Schoeman for his remarks or did he repudiate him? [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I do not consider it as cut and dried that Dr Andries Treurnicht is the leader of the CP. For some time we have seen that when Mr Eugene Terre’ Blanche speaks he draws a larger crowd than the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition.

There has been reference to the fact that there are no hon Ministers present here this afternoon but, if one looks at what is happening in Opposition benches, less than 33%—that is to say less than one third—of that party is present. The front benches are completely empty. [Interjections.] One then asks oneself what those hon members of this Parliament are doing on a Friday afternoon, not to mention what happens during the week. The hon member enlarged on how long postal deliveries took and that in a transport debate. He then defended himself by saying that it was a political debate. How many years has that hon member been here? I imagine it is something like 18 years and he does not realise yet that he is involved in a transport debate!

He has been here only a year longer … [Interjections.]

Yes, that is true, he has actually been here only a short time if one takes into account the extent of his awareness of what goes on here. [Interjections.]

As this is the last time that we shall be able to take part in this debate as representatives to make representations to Transport Services, I want to concentrate on the important role which the South African railways, harbours, airways and pipelines, as the largest employer in the country, have played and will have to play in future.

In the history of the Whites, especially Afrikaners, the South African Railways and Harbours in providing work and housing contributed generously to the upliftment of its corps of workers’ social conditions. The story of the upliftment of the poor White was written in 1935. It was known as the Carnegie Report. There was reference in that to the contribution made by the rail service and I want to quote briefly from it:

Then he continues by describing how a father who did not even have a Std 6 certificate sat studying with his son at night and how that man ultimately went on to further studies. This is what I want to thank SATS very much for. Thank you very much for providing that poor White with a house and for his social upliftment.

I think that this is the aspect which SATS will have to address as a private company on the road ahead. It furnished poor Whites with its services regardless of whether they were Afrikaans or English-speaking. It also carried out upliftment while it was occupied with transport in this country. Gradually Whites—Afrikaners and the English-speaking—saw new pastures and turned to them. They are therefore in the process of disappearing from the SATS manpower corps and other people will replace them.

This is why I say to SATS that there is yet another vocation to fulfil, apart from operating as a private company in South Africa, and that is to continue with this upliftment action as regards the people who work for the organisation, this corps of workers which forms part of SATS. Railway workers have a splendid history when one sees the loyalty they have shown this employer who supplied them with an income, a house and family life in the years of the Depression. That is why I say that that task has not been completed. SATS must go on with it.

This leads me to the aspect of this Budget which I want to address. I have been addressing it over the years and it deals with hostel occupation. I think SATS—I was informed of this in the joint committee—will try to phase out hostel labour from its service. I want to ask the hon the Minister, while he is still there as the Government representative, whether he will ensure that we shall have phased out hostel labour in SATS by the end of the century at least. I am requesting this because I believe that it is an evil in the eradication of which the State and State organisations should take the lead.

Lastly, I want to congratulate the management on the many new ideas which they have put forward. This indicates that we shall leave SATS in the hands of a dynamic team of young directors who are already striving under changed circumstances to enter the competition in the private sector, as the hon the Minister described it. I am delighted about the piggyback-truck they are talking about. I believe, however, that considerable work still has to be devoted to those projects.

The savings on power consumption which they have achieved regarding peak time demand have already proved that they are also providing for the power needs of South Africa by not permitting overloading of our power stations and that in this regard they watch their own power accounts and keep pace with this.

I believe that the team in whose hands we are leaving SATS will look after the workers and will aim for the progress which must be striven for. We need not be concerned about what the hon member for Soutpansberg said, that a letter could not be delivered in time. The hon member for Soutpansberg does not realise that we shall no longer deliver post in the electronic age. One will press a button, insert the letter here, and it will be delivered immediately at Messina or wherever. If the hon member wishes to think nostalgically of a post coach and everything connected with it, he will have to go and take a look at that type of thing in Johannesburg at Gold Reef City if he wants to see it again. [Interjections.]

I want to conclude by expressing my thanks to the management of SATS for what they recently did on the East Rand. For years we have had problems with platforms which are too low. When old people board trains, they trip and fall. This is extremely dangerous. I thank them very much for the changes which they intend making at Boksburg East and other stations, for which they make provision in this Appropriation, to have those platforms raised.

One is concerned, however, about the number of people who will still visit Boksburg after the CP has finished with it. Maintenance of railway lines is another aspect for which I want to thank Transport Services because, even in this situation in which Boksburg Lake is involved, its workers eradicated and removed bushes and weeds along the line so that it could be a neat place. Those allegations which the CP made on the deterioration of Boksburg Lake were simply not true. This is just another fact which proves that Transport Services is abreast of the times and the CP not.

Mr Chairman, I found it interesting that the hon member for Boksburg, during the course of his speech, should say that he wondered whether any party would visit Boksburg by the time the CP had done with it. I ask him to look at the history of his own party, the policies of his party and his country. If that is what he believes about Boksburg, then he should believe the same about South Africa as a whole while racial apartheid is practised within South Africa. I have no doubt whatsoever that while that happens, the same sort of things that perhaps will happen to Boksburg because of the CP, are going to happen to South Africa. Let us look at the devaluation of the rand and the ability of the SAA to fly at will to any country in the world. Do not forget that this is very apt to this debate. Because of our racial apartheid policies, those very policies that the hon the member for Boksburg is referring to in his constituency, the SAA is not able to fly directly over Africa. They have got to go all the way around the bulge. If they want to get to Tel Aviv, they have to fly for about six hours longer than a direct flight there. Think of the costs we in South Africa are paying. [Interjections.] No, it is not the CP that is in power. It is the NP that is in power and it is the NP that put those rules and those laws on the Statute Book and it is the job of the NP to remove them. [Interjections.] I beg your pardon.

Are we telling SAA to fly around the bulge Africa or is Africa telling SAA to do so?

Africa is telling SAA to fly around because of the apartheid policies of that hon member’s Government. There is no question about it. It is because of apartheid that we do this. Theycannotdeny it. It is a well-known fact. [Interjections.] They have a share in it as well, but it is the fault of the NP that those laws are still on the Statute Book.

Why does that hon member not stand up in this House and say that we should get rid of the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act and the Group Areas Act? If he believes what he has just said in regard to the CP control of Boksburg he must, if he is logical, believe the same things about South Africa. Why does he not be a man and get up in this House and spell it out, without being frightened of getting clobbered from on high by the hon the State President, like the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs who suggested that we might have a Black State President?

I am afraid I am diverting from the subject under debate and I want to return to it, but I enjoyed it.

It is patently apparent that this is going to be the last debate on the SATS and I think it behoves me as the PFP’s spokesman on transport to thank the SATS management and staff for very excellent services rendered over a long period of time. To an extent it is sad that we shall no longer have a SATS debate. This is now the final, closing stage of the last SATS debate in the South African Parliament. To a degree that must be a sad moment.

However, it brings something else to mind and that is that we shall to a very large extent be replacing ministerial control with a board of directors. That will mean that the South African public will be the shareholders because the State will certainly initially own all the shares. In any public company it is the shareholders who appoint the directors. It is going to be the hon the Minister’s job to appoint those directors on behalf of the shareholders. However, as we are talking about Government funds here, I believe that the whole of Parliament should have an input in the appointment of the board of directors of the new public company.

I believe that that should be done through the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications. I would ask the hon the Minister to consider placing the names of the people whom he wishes to appoint before the joint committee for discussion by them. I think that it is quite apt that one has the John Towers situation in America at the moment, where the Senate is considering his appointment. Obviously I am not thinking of anything as public as that, or as horrible as that has turned out to be. Personalities are being brought in. However, I do think that it would be a good idea to allow the joint committee some say in the appointment of the board of directors.

Once we have this board of directors, we are, I hope, going to have proper commercial and financial expertise on that board. The appointment of the Minister, on the other hand, is purely a political appointment and he is not expected to have expertise in commercial and financial matters. He is appointed purely for his political expertise. I think that the board of directors will be a good replacement in that regard.

I want to urge the hon the Minister to please appoint those directors irrespective of their politics. I believe that we have had too many occasions over the years where people have not been appointed to jobs which they have deserved, because of their political convictions. I am sure that within the NP Government of this country this has happened and I think that that is bad. Anybody who can do a job for the SATS, regardless of his politics, should be given that opportunity.

Finally, I would like to urge the hon the Minister to please get on with deregulation and privatisation now that the SATS is to become a public company.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central, in his criticism of the hon member for Boksburg, has just demonstrated once again why his party cannot get anywhere in South African politics.

The hon member’s entire solution to the problem of Boksburg is to abolish a piece of legislation and then everything will be fine. The hon member forgets there are hundreds of town and city councils in the country that are being managed by Nationalists and independent people and who fall under the same Act. The Black people in those towns and cities are not demonstrating or boycotting. The criterion for the governing body— whether it forms part of the Central Government or a local government makes no difference—is not what powers it has to carry out, the issue is how it is carrying out and implementing those powers. That is where the real difference lies between the NP and the CP. They have the same legislative framework but they use it in a completely different way. [Interjections.]

Since we have now come to the end of this debate it is a good thing to mention the exceptional achievement of this very big employer in the sphere of labour relations. For years now the SATS has been the largest single employer in our society. There are many hon members sitting in this Parliament who owe or partially owe their parliamentary majorities to the considerable railway vote in their constituencies. I am proud to say that I am one of them.

In the short time at my disposal I just want to refer to two aspects of labour relations in the SATS. The one is dealt with in some detail in the SATS annual report, ie the major new prominence which the promotion of sound labour relations enjoys, particularly during the past two years after the 1987 strike in the SATS.

In this respect great achievements have already been accomplished. Among the things mentioned in the report is the development of an overall strategy in labour relations, the way grievances are dealt with, advice concerning the trade union movement and legal aid.

In this way communication has been vastly improved. Training programmes for supervisors have been introduced. Great progress has been made in promoting labour peace in general in the SATS. However the greatest milestone was achieved with the establishment of the Labour Council of the SATS to deal with all facets of salaries, wages and conditions of service according to the collective bargaining principle.

At the end of that chapter this report states cryptically that the privatisation of the SATS will have major implications for its employees. This is the second subject which I should like to deal with very briefly. When we talk about privatisation we are perhaps inclined to think merely of the benefits this may have for the State or for the community in general. However, the greatest benefits of privatisation and this major step which the SATS has taken now in the past few weeks accrue to the employees of the privatised State undertakings. Here we could perhaps consider the experience in Britain, which happened approximately 10 years ago and which marked out the path for us. Their experience demonstrated indisputedly that employees derived the greatest benefit from this process.

I shall mention only one example. When Britain’s National Freight Corporation, the so-called NFC, was privatised in 1982, many of the employees of that organisation mortgaged their homes to buy shares. A total of 900 employees of the NFC and 1300 pensioners bought shares. The purchases averaged £700 per share. That was in 1982. Now, seven years later, those shares are worth 55 times more than the employees paid for them. Recently the NFC announced that an engine driver formerly in its employ had become the first tax fugitive from Britain; in other words a person who had emigrated from Britain in order to avoid paying tax. Productivity in this organisation is now up by 30% and the British State now receives from taxation from the NFC alone more money than it received as the entire income from this organisation when it was still a State owned enterprise. We are referring now only to the organisation itself, and not to the taxation on its workers.

A second example is the hovercraft service, which suffered such great losses that the entire service was literally given away to its personnel. Two years later they had turned it into a profitable business and sold it for £3,4 million.

The national bus organisation in Britain has become a monopoly. One of the first consequences of the take-over by its workers was that the routes on which they were working were opened to competitors. The competitors cut the tariffs by up to a third and introduced new standards of luxury. The national bus organisation had to compete and within two years it was so profitable that it was able to sell off 80% of its local area units at an enormous profit for its employee shareholders.

During the past week we have heard a great deal about the advantages and disadvantages of privatisation, but I want to make the statement—I want to make this as a final contribution before we take our leave of the SATS as a fully-fledged State organisation—that this organisation which for many generations was good to its employees may perhaps in its last action as state enterprise in fact be benefitting them the most.

Mr Chairman, in the time available to me, I should like to deal with the remarks made by hon members who have spoken in the course of the debate, and if there is any time left, I shall touch on a few other matters as well.

Firstly, I wish to refer once again to the remark made by the hon the Minister to the effect that the specialist committee that investigated the currency transactions of the South African Transport Services had found that there had not been any currency speculation. Unfortunately I was unable, in the brief space of three minutes allowed for declarations of vote, to quote fully from the report in order to make the point quite clear. In the report of the Joint Committee on Public Accounts which was published at the end of last year, on 23 November 1988, one of the members, Mr Bahrs, says on page 8:

In other words, this person says it is debatable. It is debatable whether the activity was too hectic or whether it was speculative.

While I was quoting, the hon the Minister interjected and asked me to read on. I now want to quote further from the report, and I quote from page 9:

What this committee member is saying, therefore—and the hon the Minister does not seem to grasp this—is that it is debatable whether the transactions were speculative or not. He is saying that they are satisfied that the purpose of the transactions was to try to reduce losses. He is not saying that they were not speculative. I hope I have now made it clear enough to enable the hon the Minister to understand what he reads.

I come now to the hon member for Primrose. I must say I was very disappointed in the quality of the hon member’s debating. I have known the hon member for a good many years—first as a professor at the Rand Afrikaans University, and later as a politician as well. I must say I had expected much more of the hon member. However, it seems to me that to begin with, the hon member does not do his homework properly. He does not take the trouble to ascertain what hon members said, and then he makes all kinds of remarks in Parliament, saying that people have told untruths or half-truths.

We have had another example of that in this debate. The hon member did the same thing on a previous occasion. I happen to be the person whom he tried to discredit in this way. The hon member for Primrose said, and I quote from his unedited speech of 1 March 1989, which dealt with this debate:

What had I said? What had I said that had compelled the hon member to make this remark? I had said, and I quote from my own unedited speech of 1 March 1989:

What I had said was exactly what the hon member also said in his speech. In spite of that, he proceeded in public, and in the presence of everyone in the public gallery, to have it recorded in Hansard that I had not told the whole truth. This method of casting suspicion on other hon members’ honesty is something I find reprehensible, especially when it comes from a person with the academic background of this hon member. One would really expect him to study the facts before making such a wild allegation in public. [Interjections.]

I want to refer briefly to what the hon the Deputy Minister said. He said that the hon member for Carletonville was a trade unionist and the Transmed changes had been cleared with all the trade unions of the SATS. In the first place, the hon member for Carletonville does not represent a trade union in Parliament. He does not represent a Transport Services trade union either. What the hon the Deputy Minister is losing sight of is that the hon member, as an ordinary MP, also receives complaints from trade unionists, just like the rest of us. He is speaking on behalf of those people, and not on behalf of a trade union. We have received many complaints about the aspect to which the hon member for Carletonville referred. We cannot debate the whole matter here, except for saying that those people who have complained cannot all be wrong.

The same goes for the discrimination against Whites who have written trade examinations. It is strange that we are being inundated these days with complaints about discrimination against Whites on the SATS. Are all these people liars? We do not believe that, and we want to tell the hon the Minister so quite frankly.

I have many railway people, and I have not received any complaints about this! [Interjections.]

They are not talking to you any more! They do not trust you any more! [Interjections.]

The hon the Deputy Minister also said that I regarded the consumer as a milch-cow, just because he was now being asked to pay for commuter services. He spoke about the unpopularity of cross-subsidising in certain quarters and the lack of motivation it caused. However, the NP as a whole is forgetting something, and that is that the NP Government cannot simply take an asset that was built up with the taxpayers’ money and regard it as an ordinary business owned by them. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, various hon members have referred to the fact that this will be the last Budget of the SATS. As I am the last spokesman for the NP, I think it is fitting that I take a moment to look back on, and also to pay homage to the part played by the SATS in our country.

This is a truly historic occasion because we have come to the end of a tradition, namely the South African Railways debate in Parliament. You will note that I am speaking about the South African Railways debate, because the SATS has not yet become a tradition here. The departure of the South African Railways from Parliament is not simply a procedure or an occurrence—in view of the tradition involved, it is almost a sad occasion. Mr Chairman, allow me to use this opportunity to say something about the historical role played by the old SAR&H in our country and specifically in this House.

How many times did the hon members not have to hear that the railways were the barometer of our country’s economy? The railways were repeatedly described as being the convenient stick which the opposition could use to get at and to attack the Government. As a result of their lack of policy, the CP have once again tried to misuse the SATS in this debate in order to score a few political points.

Both of these statements which I have just made here, and which I have made so many times previously, are true. At birth, the old S A Railways and Harbours—this is very important—was an economic being with a political soul. Moreover, it remained that way until the end.

Politics and the railways, and later also the harbours, road transport and the airways, were inseparable from the beginning, even in the earliest days when the railways were still privately owned. After the Cape Colony and Natal had taken over the railways in the early 1870s and they became state property, railway and harbour matters became the centre of politics and of economic life. Need I remind hon members of the conflict between the colonies and the republics in the previous century?

Hon members surely know that the railways and harbour question was one of the factors in the unification of the four colonies. The year 1910 is widely regarded as the most important date in our political history because out of this political unity a new state transport system was also born. During the National Convention many arguments were voiced about how the new organisation was to fit within the framework of the Union. In the end a compromise was reached regarding the economy and politics. The hon members will remember that the railway issue was included in the Constitution of 1909. Indeed a mark of great importance.

In section 127, which is probably the most debated point in our transport history, the Act states that the railways and harbours must be managed in accordance with business principles but, with due allowance for agriculture and trade by means of cheap transport. In other words, this is a business brief which includes a great development task.

Let us take our hats off to an organisation which has had to live with this ambivalence in its management from 1910 until today. On the one hand the railways has had to support itself financially, but on the other hand it has had to bow to the interests of the State, mostly without compensation. It might interest the hon members to know that in the years from 1910 to approximately 1928, the S A Railways and Harbours built a lot of political railway lines which in reality had no economic viability.

The irony of the matter is that the organisation has had to listen to a great deal of criticism in this House whenever the financial situation was weak, but nothing was ever done, or could ever be done to address the fundamental reason for it. Now, nearly 80 years later, this economic body is going to be separated from its political spirit. I predict that great things are going to happen to the SATS in the future. It is now possible to separate the development service or task, namely the commuter services, from the business sector by operating it as a separate State corporation.

I also want to take this opportunity to thank the Ministers, the general managers and all the railway men and women of the past decades for the fact that, notwithstanding all the restrictions, they have given South Africa a transport system which has placed us far ahead in Africa. We admit that the history of the development of the SATS is inextricably linked to the South African experience. This great organisation made a start with road transport in 1912 and by means of pioneering work, established a service network that reached to the four corners of our country. The private hauliers in South Africa often forget who really paved the way for them.

Look at our harbours. In 1910 they were primitive in many respects. Billions of rands worth of civil and mechanical engineering works have upgraded our harbours to modern commercial organisations which may be compared to the best in the world. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Bethlehem spoke very eloquently about the history of South African railways and harbours and, of course, it is a moment of great nostalgia in that we have come to the end of a long tradition. As the hon member said, railway debates in Parliament are to be no more. As the last speaker in a railway debate in this House I should perhaps speak about the railways and their past but I am afraid I am going to use this debating time—because we are not going to have all that much in the future—to get some answers from the hon the Minister.

Before I do so I want to talk to him about his attack on the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central this morning which I thought was totally unwarranted. I found it most extraordinary. The hon the Minister claimed that he had not been the Minister at the time. That giant intelligence, the hon member for Germiston, said it was Hendrik Schoeman as the Minister of Transport at the time who was responsible but that he resigned. He did not resign; he retired from politics as he was entitled to do. However, the point which the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central was making was that it was this Government that was responsible. They must take the responsibility for what happened. In spite of the spirited defence from that hon Minister on the whole subject of forex losses this morning the report of the committee is quite clear. Things happened which should not have happened. There should have been better control. The controls were totally inadequate and it is this Government which must take the responsibility. This hon Minister is the man in the hot seat who represents the Government and on that basis, in terms of all parliamentary traditions, this hon Minister should resign. [Interjections.] It was made very clear by the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central that he was not getting at this hon Minister personally. The childishness of the argument with which the hon the Minister then came forward—to sycophantic laughter from right round the House—that the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central had been the chief spokesman for the opposition at the time is unbelievable.

So when even the Government who get daily reports hopefully about what is happening in their own corporation is unable to unearth what is going on—it took the committee 18 months to find out—how can the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central possibly be expected to find out what was going on?

If they had talked to him they might have saved some money!

Yes, they might have, Sir. I may say that it is almost impossible to get answers across the floor of this House from the hon the Minister. I criticised him for it yesterday and he still did not come with any answers to the major questions I put to him about the privatisation and deregulation of the SAA.

I had a little information to go on. In October 1988 the hon the Minister was interviewed by the Financial Mail. They asked him when one might see the SAA on the market and he said he foresaw a minimum period of three years. Why? I want to ask the hon the Minister: Why three years? Take us into your confidence—if I may make that request to him. Why three years? He goes on further and says that he sees the SAA going out as a totally independent business unit but he says nothing at this stage about deregulation. I think I am right in saying that the hon the Minister has gone on record as saying a necessary accompaniment of privatisation of the SAA would be deregulation and he would like to see them in a competitive situation first.

The point I made yesterday was that there are carriers outside the SAA who want to participate on main routes, who would like to plan for the future and even, if it is only in three or four years, would like to be able to say: This is the sort of capital that we are going to have to raise by that time, these are the sort of aircraft we are going to have to order and this is what we would like to do in preparation for a more open situation.

We, in these benches accept that the market is not a huge one. One cannot have totally free airways. One has to control some of the routes by limiting some of the competition.

However, it is vitally necessary that there is some competition. We must have competition otherwise the whole purpose of privatisation is lost. Perhaps by privatising and selling off our assets we might be able to pay our forex losses with the capital so engendered but that is not the point of the exercise. The exercise is to the benefit of the South African public and the South African consumer.

I must urge the hon the Minister please to reply. We would like to be informed of what is going on. I asked him what was happening in respect to the much publicised bid by the SAA Pilots’ Association. I asked whether there were negotiations … but not a word.

So perhaps when one talks with some nostalgia about the fact that we will no longer be able to debate the affairs of the SATS in the future, it is not going to make all that much difference because we have not had proper answers from this hon Minister. He answers the questions he likes to answer and he does not answer those that would embarrass him. However, the purpose of parliamentary scrutiny and parliamentary participation in a debate like this is to find out what is happening. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman the hon member for Bryanston tried to come to the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central’s rescue. I must honestly say that I do not think he improved the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central’s situation in any way. The hon member had as little to say as the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central.

From your biased point of view.

The hon member for Bryanston attacked me about privatisation and deregulation. All he has to do is read my budget speech. He did not do so. In it I addressed that issue in my most recent …

This last one?

The hon member did not read it.

Yes, but when are you going to deregulate?

I said in my speech that there is a committee of experts busy working out a scheme for me. Now what more does the hon member want? I must wait to get a report before I can announce anything, and he must know that.

You said that six months ago, too.

The hon member wants to know from me …

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Minister a question?

No, resume your seat.

I just want to know when that committee is going to report back to you.

When they are finished.

The hon member asked why privatisation could not take place more quickly than three years from now. Just the other day I had a long interview with Sir Colin Fraser, who privatised British Airways. Do hon members know how long it took him? Seven years. It is not an auction that is being held. That is why I appointed experts and told them there were five units, but that I thought that the airways was the easiest to privatise. I asked them to submit proposals about how this could be done.

These five units are interconnected. We have to separate the pension schemes. There is also the cross-subsidisation for which the airways is as responsible as the other profit-making units. That problem has not yet been solved. If the hon member had taken the trouble to listen to what I say about deregulation, but he does not do so— he sits there thinking about other things—he would have known the answers to everything he is now asking me about. [Interjections.] I said there was a committee investigating the matter. I myself am eager to introduce competition into that market as quickly as possible. If I could do so within three months, I would not wait six months. The Pilots’ Association wants to make an offer. There have been Press reports about their having approached me for discussions. I said that they were welcome to make an offer when the time was ripe. They are holding discussions with me. If the hon member is so eager to get more information from them, he must ask them himself. Why is he asking me?

Surely that is the purpose of this debate.

No, it is a private transaction between me and those who want to purchase something from me; it is not an open debate. If they want to tell the hon member about that, he must ask them himself. They would then probably tell him to wait until the time was ripe. They know precisely what the position is.

The hon member for Roodepoort quoted us a passage about the question of the speculation. Mr Bahrs, a member of the specialist committee, said that the question of speculation was a “moot point”. He said, and I quote him from page 8 of the joint committee’s report:

He said it was a debatable point. Subsequently he said that the point of departure or purpose was to curb losses. He did not say one word about speculation. He said that this was a debatable point, and I am saying that the purpose was to curb losses.

Then the losses became greater!

He therefore chose the argument concerning the curbing of losses, and not that concerning speculation. [Interjections.]

No, he said …

No, that is correct. Surely those two hon members are both legal men. Surely one looks at the purpose behind someone’s actions. Here we have heard that the purpose was to curb losses. [Interjections.]

I should like to refer to the hon member for Soutpansberg. The hon member tried to make a minor political debate out of this, something which was not necessary, in my opinion, but which he has every right to do. He asked, inter alia who was governing and who was determining policy. He also spoke about the remarks made by one of our ex-colleagues, Hendrik Schoeman.

Were you a bit unhappy about that?

Let me tell the hon member that he definitely need not be concerned about the NP. He has reason to be concerned about his own party and its policy. [Interjections.] I found it really amusing to see how the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition reacted to the idea of the Boshoff homeland. That is my part of the world. I could perhaps become president there.

You do not have a snowball’s hope!

The hon the Leader of the Official Opposition’s first reaction was to say that he supported the principle. He said so in the newspapers. That was his first reaction, but he had a few problems with the boundaries, and also with the fact that there were quite a few Coloureds living there. The few Coloureds living there are surely nothing compared with the 11 million people whom they want to relocate.

You are distorting the facts!

And then? When he discovered that people were laughing about this, he keeled over and rejected it. He did not say so at the start. Nor did hon members of the CP who are now shaking their heads so vehemently. [Interjections.]

What are you trying to say?

I am saying that hon members of the CP have a great deal to think about. Leave us alone. We shall do our own thing. Those hon members have more to think about. [Interjections.]

I thank the hon member for Boksburg who paid tribute to the SATS. He referred to hostel residence. It is our aim to get rid of that, but we cannot do it too quickly either. It is nevertheless our aim to do so.

The hon member for Port Elizabeth Central asked me to refer councillors serving on the board of directors to the joint committee. I do not, however, think that is a practical suggestion. What I do think is practical, however, is for the joint committee to hold consultations with me about this, particularly if it also wants to recommend people. I agree with the hon member that these directors should be appointed on the strength of their expertise, because the SATS is a business undertaking.

The hon member said that as a result of this Government’s apartheid policy, we are not permitted to fly over Africa and now have to make use of a roundabout route. The hon member said that everything would simply come right if we abolished the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act and apartheid. That is not true, however. There are no airlines in African countries where the policy of that hon member’s party is implemented.

There are no investments forthcoming from abroad either.

Yes, there are no investments forthcoming from abroad either.

It is therefore not that simple. We are at present negotiating with African countries. We are in the process of changing things. The hon member knows that. These things cannot take place or be changed overnight, but I want to predict that one day things will perhaps come right.

When the NP is no longer in power.

No, Mr Chairman, then things will go completely out of kilter.

I should like to thank the hon member for Umlazi for his participation. He highlighted two important aspects. The hon member, in effect, mentioned the establishment of the Labour Board as one of the most important developments. I agree with him wholeheartedly, because the workers of any organisation, including those of the SATS, are the most important element in the successful functioning of such an organisation.

In regard to privatisation I again have a compliment for the workers. It has been proven that they must be the ones to derive the most benefit. This has been proven wherever this aspect has been successfully implemented. If this were not the case, privatisation would prove to be a failure. That is how simple it is. If one does not look after one’s workers and ensure that they are enthusiastic about this, it is a failure, and we have no intention of making it a failure.

I thank the hon member for Bethlehem who made a fine speech in this last debate. In all probability this is the last debate of this kind. There are still certain administrative matters that have to be cleared up, but we expect a possible change-over to the company on 1 April 1990. The date will be published in the Gazette.

On this occasion I would very much like to pay tribute to my predecessors. Right in front of me here sits one of my predecessors who made his contribution. I want to pay tribute to the former commissioners, but also to the present commissioners, who are present here, including the general managers, the officials and the present general manager. I want to thank them all for what they have done for the Transport Services over the years and for the success with which they have steered the debates through Parliament. [Interjections.]

The company which is to be established will, of course, furnish Parliament with annual financial statements which will be tabled, for as long as the State remains a member of the company, for discussion under the Transport Vote.

The SATS, or the South African Railways and Harbours, as it has always been known, has served South Africa well, having fulfilled a socioeconomic function too. Those times are past, however. We are dealing with a different South Africa, and it surprises me that a young man like the hon member for Roodepoort cannot understand this. [Interjections.] I want to predict that the SATS will give South Africa even better service in an atmosphere of free competition. Does the hon member agree? He does not say a word.

It is with mixed feelings that I reply today to the Second Reading debate on the Transport Services Appropriation Bill. I have been Minister of Transport Affairs for a relatively short period, but I quickly became attached to the organisation and its people. It is therefore clear to me why certain hon members of the House find it difficult to take leave of the SATS, something which has become apparent from the debate.

The erstwhile South African Railways and Harbours has become part and parcel of our South African cultural heritage. It is specifically the trains and our comprehensive rail network that have made a giant contribution, since the discovery of South Africa’s mineral wealth, towards pushing this country to the great heights it has achieved.

†There are no organisations in South Africa that have the public face of Transport Services. Its various modes of transport have been part of our daily environment for as long as anyone in this House can remember. On the other hand, it is indeed my pleasure as the current Minister of Transport Affairs to live through these last moments because this Government is not throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Transport Services was established in 1910 with the nationalisation of a couple of independent companies and has grown into a company with a replacement asset value of R56 billion. We are talking of 34 700 single track kilometres, 4 400 locomotives, 167 000 goods trucks, 31 aircraft, some 5 000 road transport vehicles, six ports and a comprehensive pipeline network. What an incredibly big company! However, even more important are the human resources which total some 180 000 precious people.

*This organisation is, in effect, basically sound. It is viable, flexible, industrious and dynamic and is on the way to taking its place and holding its own in the South African transport market. The SATS’s results of working for January this year are characteristic of what I think we can expect of this organisation as a public company in the future. In January, for example, the Transport Services evidenced a surplus of R87 million, as against a budgeted surplus of R24 million. This trend could also continue in February.

In his tribute to the Transport Services, the hon member for Bethlehem, in his characteristic fashion, pointed out that this economic giant can now, to a larger extent, be divorced from its political configuration. I thank him for the historic speech he made here. Figures such as those I have just quoted cannot be conjured out of thin air; hard work is needed to achieve such figures. I think that the SATS is being left in very good hands, and hon members can rest assured in the knowledge that there is no question of the family silver being sold in the process. I am convinced that Dr Moolman, his management team and all the employees of the SATS will, with determination, accept the challenge of full-fledged free competition, and will not only accept it, but will also survive it, ensuring that the State, as a shareholder, reaps the positive fruits of this step. Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.

Mr Chairman, I move without notice:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, it is the considered view of my party that the amounts as detailed under the respective heads are supported by this House and we hope that the amounts as they appear in these schedules will be put to good use for the betterment of all South Africans.

Mr Chairman, we support this Bill. I wish to make a statement on behalf of the Ministers’ Council. As the Acting Chairman of the Ministers’ Council I wish to congratulate the hon member for Moorcross on his appointment as leader of his party. In doing so I ask him for his fullest co-operation in all that takes place in this House.

Mr Chairman, I would like to thank the hon member for Havenside for supporting the adoption of the schedules. He also expressed the view that we should implement them. That is, of course, the whole object.

I have no further comment because I am certain that hon members will rather be prepared to debate the Second Reading of the Bill. I take much pleasure in acceding to the request made by the hon member.

Debate concluded.

Schedules agreed to.

Second Reading debate

Mr Chairman, I want to refer to the annual report as presented by the SATS and to housing in particular. I note that an amount of R79 467 589 for the year under review was spent for White housing. As regards Indians in particular, an amount of R73 million was spent over a period of 15 years. This progress is not very speedy and as such there is an acute shortage of housing for Indians employed by the SATS. I would like to ask the hon the Minister to look into the aspect of locating suitable land for this particular purpose so that the Indian component of this section will also be accommodated for as far as housing is concerned.

Regarding pension benefits, there are three or four different types which are available to employees of the SATS and I would like to know from the hon the the Minister, when the SATS is privatised, whether these four schemes will be consolidated for the benefit of all those employed within the ambit of the SATS.

Regarding the SAA and in particular their “super” scheme which is now available to passengers who travel only on certain routes, for some reason Durban and Johannesburg have been overlooked. I know there is a special 40% discount available to those last-minute passengers. Passengers from Durban to Johannesburg are not accommodated by this extra facility. There are now direct flights for passengers travelling from Durban to Port Elizabeth, Durban to East London and Durban to Cape Town and I am sure that there are also last-minute cancellations, particularly the Durban-Cape Town route. I do hope that this concession is also available to those that look forward to this particular benefit of saving 40% on the normal fare.

In regard to catering, I am particularly concerned about Hindu meals. I do not know if the other sections of the Indian community are concerned with Hindu meals. Fish is not a vegetarian meal, but when requests are made for vegetarian meals, fish becomes part of the dish. This has caused some problems and I hope that cognisance will be taken of this fact.

Referring to fish again, I have personally observed on a number of occasions, that we get fish that really smells, fish that is uncooked. In business class one gets tuna fish which has just been taken out of the can placed before one to eat. This I think is unfair because people who travel on business class should be afforded the opportunity to get better food than cans which are simply opened and dished out.

Another problem is parking facilities. Many of us travelling from Durban to Cape Town have been confronted with this problem. The airport terminal is a long distance from the normal parking area which used to be alongside the old domestic terminal. During inclement weather we experience great difficulty in walking that long distance. This matter was highlighted last year.

Is the hon member talking about MPs?

Yes, particularly MPs and other Government officials who also enjoy the same free parking facilities at Louis Botha Airport. This has become a matter for concern. It was highlighted here last year and we asked the hon the Minister to look into this aspect, but nothing much has been done. We hope that he will seriously look into this.

I also note from the report an alarming rate of vehicle accidents at level crossings. This seems to be escalating year after year. I note that 45 persons were killed compared to 27 persons during the previous year. Also, 70 persons were injured compared to 31 persons during the previous year and 246 vehicles were involved compared to 212 vehicles during the previous year.

There appears to have been a substantial increase in these numbers. I am now wondering whether these areas where accidents occur at level crossings are now being developed for housing and other purposes. If this is so, I wish to appeal for these level crossings to be given priority. They should be put onto a programme and on estimates for further consideration. They should not just be left in abeyance, because there appears to be an escalation in road and vehicle accidents at level crossings.

I now come to the question of the 1 883 employees who are at the present moment redundant. I would like to know whether these people will be transferred to other departments or whether they will be retrenched. If they are going to be transferred, I want to know whether they will enjoy the same benefits or not. I also note that there was a decrease of 10 204 personnel members. In this respect I do not know whether it is because of the main line services that have been curtailed by 50%. I do not know if this has been the cause, but there seems to be some dramatic action that is taking place. I do not know whether it is because the SATS are being privatised or whether it is just because these people are redundant staff that were not looked at very objectively and positively during the past year. If that is so, I think serious consideration should be given to making these 1 883 employees available to other departments that are experiencing a shortage of staff.

I now come to the question of parity for Blacks that was supposed to have been implemented. I note from the report before me that phases 3, 4 and 5 have been put into effect. I do hope that this is a true reflection of the position as it stands. However, I also note with a great amount of reservation that the other two benefits are still not applicable, particularly the medical benefits. I hope that greater emphasis will be placed on this and that more money will be utilised to ensure that all staff members enjoy the same privileges as their White counterparts.

Another very trivial issue is that of travelling facilities as the SATS themselves monitor the movements and own the means of transport where these employees enjoy travelling facilities and benefits for travel during their vacations. I cannot see why that cannot be put into effect immediately. There is no money involved as far as travelling facilities are concerned. It is, I take it, a benefit that one enjoys, whether one has two air tickets free of charge or whether one falls in a category that entitles one to a 2-day free trip from Durban to Cape Town. That does not cost much money. I think it is important that the hon the Deputy Minister looks into this aspect and allows this benefit as a matter of concern.

Finally, Transmed has spent something in the region of R268 million during the year, but only R22 million was spent on their Black counterparts. This is a big disparity. I hope that after privatisation the medical aid scheme will come into line with the White counterpart.

Mr Chairman, those hon members who read the Cape Times yesterday probably think that I am back this morning to carry on with the “Carry On” series part two. I am sorry to disappoint hon members, but it is Friday morning and everybody wants to go home. Besides that all of us heard last night that someone is coming back after Easter to carry on carrying on.

I want to add to what the hon member for Havenside said about the shortage of homes for Indian employees of the SATS. I believe that a lot of homes owned by the SATS are vacant as a result of the curtailment of their operations in certain areas. I believe that the SATS should lease them out to Indian employees and where Indian employees are not available they should lease these homes to any other employee, irrespective of colour. If there are no employees that want to avail themselves of these facilities they should be given to the general public who might require these homes.

My time expired during the debate on Wednesday while I was talking about all the serviceable buildings of the SATS that are under the demolisher’s hammer. I was telling hon members about the workshop in Durban which is reported to be generating greater business success than many of the modern buildings in Durban’s central business district.

That is not the railways.

I am sure that other buildings can be converted for other equally successful enterprises.

I spoke about the gracious old Sea View station which I am sure the hon member for Glenview remembers very well. I used to travel by train to Sea View to see my wife before I married her. I have good memories of that station and it is a pity it is no more. This morning I want to bring it to the attention of the hon the Deputy Minister that the Umzinto railway station is nearly 100 years old and that very little or no use is being made of this facility. I believe it is costing the SATS a lot of money to maintain it. The Umzinto local authority and I have identified this facility as ideal for a fresh produce market which will help the farmers in and around Umzinto to sell their produce and will help the housewife to make purchases at far lower prices than those at supermarkets. The local authority is making application to either purchase or lease it and I appeal to the hon the Deputy Minister to give favourable consideration not only to this application but also to any other application of a similar nature.

Some hon members spoke about mugging on the trains. I believe that mugging is rife on the south coast train between Isipingo and Park Rynie. I had reason to telephone Mr Barry Lessing the Deputy General Manager of Railways in Johannesburg who immediately addressed this matter with the co-operation of the SAP. This morning I want to record my sincere thanks to him for his prompt action. I believe that liquor is sold freely on these trains, and this illegal malpractice has to be policed.

I want to place on record my very sincere thanks and appreciation to the hon the Minister, the hon the Deputy Minister and the Director-General and all his senior management staff. [Interjections.] The hon members can think what they like but I can say what I want to. [Interjections.] I thank them for the good times that were enjoyed by the members of the transport study group on their annual tours and for the many handouts that will be long remembered and cherished. But there is one person that I am sorry for because he is certainly going to miss that swimming pool. These study group tours were interesting and educational and all of us gained a good insight into the SATS involvement in all its activities. I am sure that the Director-General and his senior management staff will continue to assist us whenever it is necessary.

Mr Chairman, I wish to comment on employment opportunities in the SATS and I refer to the South African Transport Services Annual Report 1987-88: The total number of personnel employed by the SATS is 192 566, the breakdown being 86 454 Whites, 88 979 Blacks, 15 591 Coloureds and 1 542 Indians.

The ratio of Indians employed by the SATS to the total number of people employed, is 0,009% which is equivalent to one in every 120. It makes for interesting reading to see that the SAA employs nine Indians out of a total of 10 524. SA Pipelines employs 2 Indians out of a total of 636 employees.

Thus far there is no evidence to indicate that job opportunities are accorded on merit. On the contrary, it would appear that employment by the SATS is Government-dominated. The SATS is a very large employer, a very large organisation and employs large numbers of staff and labour. As part of the package deal of reform in the country, the SATS should now embark on employing personnel on merit, according every man, every citizen of South Africa irrespective of his colour, a fair opportunity to participate. Jobs should be advertised and there should be free and open competition on the open market.

I hope the hon the Minister will take into consideration what I have said.

Mr Chairman, I want to comment on a few issues raised in this House, and first of all those matters raised by the hon member for Havenside.

I want to comment on the tuna which they serve aboard the aeroplanes. If I could say it in lighter vein, the tuna quite often reminds me of the cat food of my cat back home.

The other matter is the parking facilities for members of Parliament at the Durban airport which leave much to be desired. It is about, I would say, a kilometre away from the terminal buildings, or at least that is what it feels like when I am in a hurry and I have to walk that long distance.

There is an area near the terminal building which is cordoned off with chains and which is for certain privileged members of the House. We do not begrudge them this, but what happens is that often when we go there to collect a ticket, the policeman on duty says that he is sorry, but we are not allowed to park there and we have to go and park in the MPs’ parking area. Then one has to go all the way back, park there, walk to the terminal building for a few minutes to pick up a ticket and then walk all the way back. Until this matter has been resolved, it would be appreciated if the policeman on duty could be asked to exercise a little discretion when people want to park there for a few minutes. [Interjections.] They seem to be very rigid about this and the policemen say that they have instructions from the airport minister and the airport minister says that if we want to address this matter, we must take it up at a higher level. That is why we address this to the hon the Minister.

The airport manager!

Yes, I am sorry, the airport manager. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I want to place on record our thanks to the hon the Deputy Minister for the role he played in the provision of prayer facilities at the various airports. Some people from abroad have also asked me to convey their appreciation to him, which I would like to do here.

While we are discussing these issues, we would also like the hon the Minister to look at alternative routes for pilgrims because the present routes which we have are causing many problems and lots of delays. If the hon the Minister could address this problem we would appreciate it.

Finally I would like to respond to the good wishes expressed by the hon Acting Chairman of the Ministers’ Council on my appointment as Leader of the Official Opposition.Thank you very much.

Mr Chairman, I want to state that as leader I am going to strive towards bringing about stability in this House.

Hear, hear!

In the true traditional opposition role we will always place the people and the country first in all our negotiations.

Mr Chairman, allow me to start with the hon member for Moorcross, who spoke last. I wish to convey to him my congratulations on being elected the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition. I share the views he expressed towards the end of his speech, namely that the interests of the country should be foremost in whatever he does. I think that when a leader of the Official Opposition says that, one can look forward to very useful contributions which will truly be in the interests of the country. On the whole, such contributions will undoubtedly be positive and constructive.

The hon member asked me about routes for pilgrims. We have given this matter a lot of thought, and we have had discussions in this regard with the Department of Foreign Affairs, the SAA and the Ministry of Transport Affairs. We have had the various groups together. I am not, of course, going to say a lot about this, since I think it is all still in the melting-pot. However, the hon member may rest assured that if at all possible, we shall certainly try to arrange the shortest possible route for pilgrims. There is nothing more I should like to say about the issue, because it has been a sensitive issue for a very long time, and this sensitivity has not in any way diminished.

The hon member thanked us for making prayer facilities available. I, too, am pleased to note—I have seen this myself—that our various airport managers have made this available, and I think it suits the people who want to go there. The places are quiet and I think the facilities are adequate.

Of course, when it comes to parking facilities, this is really an issue for the Department of Transport, but in view of the fact that the hon member has mentioned it, I would like to say that I have looked at the parking facility for MPs at Durban Airport. I held a personal inspection together with the manager of the airport. It is some way from the arrivals and departure areas of the airport, but it is not all that far. I think the issue is whether we have parking spots available for MPs. There is no doubt that that is a place where we can make them available and at the same time cordon the area off, because after all, MPs’ cars remain there for a fairly long time. In fact, I saw a car there which I was told belongs to a member of Parliament, and it has been there for a very long time. If such a car is there for a very long time, then obviously one can have a situation where a person might decide to place, say, a limpet mine on the wheel, and it could go unnoticed.

All I want to say, therefore, is that one should be extremely careful in regard to such a parking area where cars are permanently parked for a period. Those cars have to be policed and looked after from time to time. We cannot, therefore, always make these facilities available in close proximity to an airport. Hon members should realise that we are responsible for the safety of the public and the passengers there, and motorcars are excellent targets for anyone who wants to do anything out of the ordinary. Therefore, if we make facilities available I think hon members should be a little tolerant because we have to bear the factor of security in mind.

I myself have walked to this particular parking spot. I do know that hon members have an objection because on rainy days it would be uncomfortable, but it is only a short distance one has to walk without being under cover. As regards the new international parking area at Durban Airport, there is also a section where one has to walk a very, very short distance without being under cover. I want hon members to know that we will assist if we can, but they must bear in mind that we also have a particular problem.

As regards the food situation, another hon member also mentioned this point regarding Hindu vegetarian meals without fish. [Interjections.] I am not an expert on this but I am certain that the SAA will take notice of the complaints. We are very much aware of the wishes of our clients and certainly if we can be of assistance, we will gladly do so. I apologize if the food is not up to standard, but over the years we have had such a vast increase in our air population, if I can call it that, that one sometimes has problems in providing what should be provided.

The hon member for Merebank spoke about the employment opportunities. He is worried about the fact that there are only 1 500 Indians employed. As far as my information goes, we have often said that we are prepared to employ any person whenever we have vacancies. We do not consider the colour or the origin of a person. This policy has been followed for a very long time. The SATS is at the moment not employing people for whom it does not have opportunities of really fulfilling a worthwhile job. As I mentioned yesterday afternoon, we have reduced our workforce over the years. From 1982 up to now we have reduced it from 280 000 to 180 000. That is by more or less 100 000. We are still in the position to produce what we are producing, we have a higher degree of productivity and we are transporting as well as we possibly can. We have done it because we have rationalised and we have applied the most and the best technical and technological advantages that we could employ. We are therefore an organisation which only employs people when we really need them.

Because of the fact that we are in competition with the private sector, the SATS will look carefully at its whole manpower situation. If they could employ people who are of Indian origin, they would employ them. In fact, hon members made mention of the fact that one of the members of the Indian population had been appointed as a pilot. There is quite obviously a shortage in many of these highly skilled jobs. There is no reason why they should not be employed. However, they must obviously have the qualifications. This is the direction in which we are moving all the time. We are committed to a policy of paying the rate for the job, equal responsibility, equal pay, but also equal training and so forth. This is the whole idea.

There were times when the SATS could create employment opportunities, but I think that to a large extent that time has also passed. Because the SATS will be in a position where it will compete, it will have to look carefully at all the sectors and units in the organisation which will make a profit on the capital. I think one will obviously find the employment opportunities in those areas in which it will be able to be competitive. There are also areas in which I would advise the SATS to do things as the ordinary businessman or factory owner would do them. What they all do, is only to employ when it is necessary and to offer job opportunities when there is a bigger demand. However, when there is a slackness in economic activity one again finds that those people are careful in deciding whom they employ. The opportunities are not so plentiful.

However, I have no reason to believe that in general the economic activity in South Africa and the unemployment situation will change because we are going to put more emphasis on the private sector which will have to do certain things. Hon members will also find that the SATS will not be against employing people, regardless of the colour of their skin, providing there is a demand for such people to be employed. That is really the issue.

Hon members raised some other points I would like to reply to. The hon member for Havenside asked whether the various pension schemes were to be combined into one scheme. It is the intention to combine the various schemes further. As a first step all the schemes must be placed on the same basis. The benefits of the various schemes are already the same.

The hon member for Havenside also made a point about level crossings. The Level Crossing Elimination Fund is no longer included in the Budget. However, the annual spending has recently been increased to something like R10,5 million and, as such, as much as possible is being done to eliminate level crossings. A special committee deals with the question of priority. I want to remind the hon member that there is also a report on what has been done with regard to the elimination of level crossings. If the hon member does not have that report I will make certain information available to him.

As far as redundant staff are concerned, they are retrained or placed in other vacancies on a personal to holder basis. As far as parity is concerned, the service conditions are exactly the same where parity has been implemented. In respect of Transmed and travelling facilities the situation is that the department is actively investigating the implementation in conjunction with all the trade unions.

As far as housing is concerned, I want to tell hon members that the department is continually striving to obtain extra land for housing for the Indian workers in the SATS.

I now come to the hon member for Umzinto. As he knows the Umzinto railway station is 100 years old and not in use presently. The local authority has made an application that it be converted into a produce market. All such applications are considered sympathetically and on merit. The advantage to the SATS is also a factor that is taken into consideration.

I think this covers the questions that were put to me. I hope that hon members have received the information from me that they required.

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.