Mr. Speaker, on 20 February 1980 I received a letter from the acting chairman of the Johannesburg Bar Council informing me that the council was satisfied that the principal motivation for the resignation of former Mr. Justice M. E. King was a belief that certain members of the Bench had been involved in fiscal irregularities, and that the Bar Council was satisfied, following inquiries, that Mr. King’s belief was bona fide and based on reasonable grounds.

The letter from the Bar Council was the first communication I received that Mr. King’s resignation had been for this reason. I considered the matter to be a serious one and was of the opinion that it should receive immediate attention. Consequently I got into touch with the Chief Justice, the hon. F. L. H. Rumpff, as well as the Bar Council. Arrangements were made for a meeting to be held in my office in Cape Town on 22 February 1980, at which the Chief Justice, the acting judge Mr. Justice J. C. Kriegler, chairman of the Johannesburg Bar Council, Adv. King and Adv. W. H. R. Schreiner, S.C., and I would be present.

On 21 February 1980 I read the Bar Council’s letter to the hon. the Prime Minister and to the leaders of the various political parties in the Assembly, in the office of the Prime Minister. On 22 February 1980 the Chief Justice, the three advocates, the Secretary for Justice and I met in my office in Cape Town, and together we decided that the alleged irregularities would be investigated by the Chief Justice himself, assisted by a practising chartered accountant. This decision was made because the Bar Council and I were convinced that the investigation had to take place. On the other hand the allegations were not made with reference to specific judges and although the alleged irregularities were mentioned, specific incidents were not mentioned. I therefore felt— and I believe that the Bar Council shared my opinion—that it would not be justified, on the facts that were known at that stage, to make reservations concerning the integrity of judges public, and that further facts first had to be obtained. That the Chief Justice would be able to do by means of a confidential investigation, and his report would then enable me to decide what further steps would be appropriate.

‡On 24 May 1980, I received the Chief Justice’s report. It contains information indicating that a formal commission of inquiry should be appointed. It also appears that in the course of the inquiry certain information came to the Chief Justice’s attention, that makes it desirable also to include Natal in the commission’s terms of reference. The Government has, therefore, decided to appoint a commission consisting of the hon. F. L. H. Rumpff, DMS., Chief Justice of South Africa, as chairman, and Messrs. F. G. Barrie, former Auditor-General, and J. A. Crafford, a chartered accountant, as members with the following terms of reference: To inquire into and report and make recommendations on the subsistence and travelling allowances of judges and the question whether in the Transvaal or in Natal an interpretation was given to the prescribed tariffs of those allowances, or those of judges’ clerks, and whether claims were submitted in connection with such allowances that were legally or otherwise not correct and resulted in the unjustified paying out of public money.

Certain information on this matter came to the knowledge of members of the Press at an early stage, when the available information had not yet justified a formal inquiry. I then asked several English and Afrikaans newspaper executives and editors for their co-operation, and I should like to thank the Press for the responsible manner in which they acted in this matter.

The decision to appoint the commission should not be seen as a reflection on the integrity of judges. The Government indeed places a high premium on the high esteem in which our judiciary is held, and an appeal is made to the news media to exercise the same circumspection in their reporting of the matter as they have done up to this stage. In this regard I wish to draw specific attention to paragraph 13 of the relevant regulations which, inter alia, provides that no person shall prejudice, influence or anticipate the proceedings or the findings of the commission.

Mr. Chairman, we have already had a discussion on the activities of the Directorate of Forestry and Environmental Conservation, and more specifically on Forestry. Consequently I wish to avail myself of this opportunity, firstly, to provide the Committee with information on certain aspects and, secondly to reply to the speeches by various hon. members.

Before I come to that, however, I just wish to refer first to representations which were addressed by various hon. members to the Directorate of Water Affairs, and on which I did not reply fully. Naturally it is impossible to reply in detail to the representations of all the hon. members. I just wish to tell hon. members that my department and I, as far as possible, give attention to all their representations.

There was a matter which was raised by the hon. member for Fauresmith—he is not here at the moment—on a possible visit to the Riet River area. Of course I have been in this area before. At the time the problem was one of floods and lands that had become waterlogged. Now, however, the problem is a serious shortage of water. I shall have talks with the hon. the Minister of Agriculture to see, as the hon. member requested, whether a joint visit cannot be arranged.

The hon. member for Prieska asked whether attention could be given to the provision of water south of the Orange River for stock-watering purposes. We shall give specific attention to that as well.

That brings me to certain forestry matters. Last year, during the discussion of the Forestry Vote, I referred to the gradual recovery of the forestry industry, and expressed the hope that the recovery would be more rapid and would take place on a larger scale. It is a pleasure for me to be able to say here today that this has in fact happened. In the first place it came about as a result of an expansion of the export promotion effort and, in the second place, because there was an increase in domestic demand. Certain hon. members, among others the hon. member for Ermelo, referred in detail to the export promotion effort and mentioned specific amounts in this connection. I am going to furnish other figures, only these are more recent figures than his. I am in any way implying, though, that the hon. member’s figures were not correct. To tell the truth, I want to thank him in particular. The hon. member for Humansdorp also referred to this matter, and asked certain questions.

The value of the exports, and this does not include wooden furniture, rose considerably again from R161 million, in round figures, for 1978—a figure which, owing to the inclusion of certain items, including charcoal, which was not previously taken into account, is approximately R6,3 million in excess of the figure for 1978 which I mentioned last year—to more than R197 million for 1979, and increase of more than R36 million during the current year, or approximately 22%. I think it is very important that hon. members should take cognizance of this growth in the industry, specifically in exports. Consequently it was higher than the increase of 18,5% for 1978. This must also be correlated with, and seen in proportion to the imports, the increase in which amounted to only 9% for 1979 as against 15% for 1978.

On this occasion I wish to express my appreciation to all who harnessed their energies to promoting the export drive. Their contribution in this connection redounds to the credit, not only of the forestry industry in particular, but also to the national economy in general and can never be too highly regarded, particularly if one takes into consideration that the imports and exports of timber and timber products are moving towards a position of equilibrium. Provided another world-wide recession is not experienced, 1979 will probably have been the last year in which imports outstripped exports. I am basing this view on the breakthrough with laminated softwood railway sleepers to replace the imported hardwood product. The hon. member for Humansdorp also inquired about this. Consequently he will see that it played an important part. Furthermore there was also the increasing popularity of contemporary pine furniture, which also replaced imports and increased exports. Added to this there was the expansion of pulp and paper manufacture, with a resultant increase in exports, expansions in the sphere of the bleaching of pulp which, although it is still far from capable of meeting the local needs, nevertheless necessitated that many fewer imports. Then, too, there was the conclusion of further wood chips export contracts in the medium term, and even the increasing exports of charcoal with which, as a matter of interest, an amount of approximately R1,9 million in foreign exchange was earned in 1979.

The findings of the committee on the import replacement of pulp, paper and paper products, to which I referred in detail last year, similarly confirm my optimistic view, and I sincerely trust that it will be possible to achieve the contemplated expansions. I am referring in particular here to the proposed expansion of our paper and pulp investments. Although it is true that the proposed expansions will replace almost all pulp imports, this will not be the case with certain types of paper, for the local consumption and demand for this product does not at this stage yet justify local manufacture. I can inform hon. members that what we are referring to here is mostly the snobbish type of paper serviettes and similar commodities which are still being imported and on which relatively large amounts are being spent, although there is no local market which justifies the manufacture of this special type of product.

While I am on this subject, I should like to emphasize a few points which I deem to be important. Firstly I think that all timber processors must, in order to absorb surpluses and to meet the steadily increasing demand, fully utilize and even overutilize their available capacity, by means of overtime and double shifts, rather than proceed to increase capacity, which step requires major capital expenditure.

A further aspect to which I should like to draw the attention of hon. members is the utilization of waste paper in the local pulp and paper manufacturing industry. That this is being done is something which is not generally realized. Ostensibly it could be regarded as being in competition with the pulp industry, in particular as regards the intake of pulpwood in the round, because the annual consumption of waste paper amounts to approximately 300 000 tons, which represents approximately 1 200 000 cubic metres of pulpwood in the round. In reality the present pulp mills in the country are in full production and they cannot, without an additional capital investment in an expansion of capacity, absorb more timber in the round, while there are some of the paper and board mills which use mainly waste paper as raw material. They are already experiencing shortages and consequently have to supplement their raw material by way of imports. If waste paper were to disappear locally as a raw material, there would be at least a threefold increase in the quantity of pulp that would have to be imported, unless additional factory capacity is created. To my way of thinking this emphasizes the necessity for more attention to be given in all quarters to the recovery of waste paper. The percentage of waste paper which is at present being recovered in South Africa amounts to approximately 28%, as against 42% in Japan and 23% in West Germany, to mention only two examples. It is not generally realized that waste paper has an important part to play in this industry and that the recovery of waste paper saves an enormous amount in foreign exchange.

In the sphere of timber utilization it is gratifying that there are cases where almost the entire tree is already being utilized. I could just point out in passing that the production of charcoal is already increasing in importance, not only because of the export of this product, but also because of the internal consumption of this commodity in industries as a direct form of energy and also in gas generators to replace oil fuel. A matter which requires attention is waste products in general, including sawmill waste. Hon. members will agree that in this respect there is still a considerable margin for better utilization, particularly if one bears in mind the many smoking waste burners at sawmills to which sometimes up to 50% of the round measure by volume is being consigned. Consequently this applies to timber which has already been exploited and conveyed as is available in concentrated form. A wonderful example of what can be achieved in this connection is to be found at the State sawmill at George where sawmill waste is with great success being fed directly via a conveyer belt from the sawmill into the furnaces of the municipal power-station to supplement coal for the generation of electricity. At the same time the State sawmill obtains steam from the municipal power-station for the drying of timber and consequently need not keep its kilns in operation—a very expensive process—for this purpose. It is very important to note that one is able to get this kind of co-operation, and in that way bring about a saving for various groups in the country in general.

As regards the good demand for timber, there is a disadvantage attached, viz. that sawmills are unfortunately inclined to concentrate only the popular standard sizes. This gives rise to problems for the Railways Administration, for example, in obtaining adequate supplies of non-standard sizes. The result is that importation had to be resorted too, at considerably higher prices than can be negotiated on the export market for sawn timber. These are bad business principles, and I trust that the sawmillers will realize where their duty lies in this respect, and do it.

Hon. members will recall that a report of the Board of Trade and Industries on the marketing of sawn softwood in the Republic was tabled during March this year. Arising from the recommendations in this report, the possibility of closer liaison and cooperation with the private sector by the South African forestry industry is at present being investigated in so far as this concerns the sawmilling activities of the State. At the same time attention is being given to the possible rationalization of sawmilling activities in the areas in which State sawmills are situated. Talks with these concerns in the private forestry sector as to which would best fit in with the general rationalization concept to determine to which extent the State sawmills can fall in with this concept, have already commenced. These talks will lay the foundation for a new dispensation in which the existing State sawmills will be accommodated, which merely means that in some cases partnerships may be entered into with private sawmill concerns while in other cases the State sawmill might be sold to a private enterprise, when doing so is in the interests of rationalization. Where it is justified, State sawmills will possibly continue to exist for the foreseeable future and be operated by the State. In this connection I just wish to emphasize that steps which could give rise to unfavourable marketing structure, as a result of excessive concentration, will of course be avoided. I am emphasizing this because there are already signs in the timber industry, too, that overconcentration could in fact be occuring, something which would eventually give rise to monopolies. However, I want to give hon. members the assurance that the steps which may be taken will be calculated to promote the best interests of the country in general and the forestry industry in particular. As far as the manufacture of alcohol from wood is concerned, I can inform hon. members that the committee of the Forestry Council, which I told them about last year, continued its activities with good results and appointed consulting engineers to undertake a thorough study as far as both methanol and ethanol are concerned. The Forestry Council made an amount of R123 000 available for this purpose for the 1979-’80 financial year. Members of the committee were also invited or appointed to serve on various committees and sub-committees of the CSIR on energy matters, and I am convinced that the forestry sector will still, as in the past, play its full part, and more, in this sphere.

As regards increases in the prices of timber in the round, we should like to see timber producers being better remunerated. However, we are experiencing a problem with transportation costs which have been raised, but these have to a certain extent been off-set by increased prices for end- as well as for intermediary products. The increased intake by the processing industries has also afforded considerable relief. I wish to say, however, that we must take into consideration the fact that transportation plays a very major part in this connection, and creates a serious problem. We are dealing here with a volume product, and transportation is naturally an important cost-item. The committee for Railway matters of the Forestry Council remains in regular contact with the Railways Administration on the question of rail transportation and rates, and I trust that it will be possible to resolve this difficult matter in due course, because that will definitely have a favourable effect on marketing possibilities, as well as net prices to the growers. The hon. member for Mooi River pointed out the problems of the smaller producers in this connection.

Arising out of an inquiry by the hon. member for Humansdorp on the rate of afforestation, I must inform him that the present indications are that new afforestation will have to proceed at the rate of 25 000 ha per annum and that the State will have to plant approximately half of that area to trees. However, we shall have to review the situation from time to time, because a few years ago the statement was made that the requirement would be approximately 50 000 ha per annum.

I now wish to refer briefly to matters broached by hon. members, and also say something about the conservation task of the Directorate of Forestry and Environmental Conservation. In this connection I want to point out that the hon. members for Orange Grove and Bryanston adopt conflicting approaches to the question of conservation. I do not wish to spend much time on this, except to say that the hon. member for Bryanston said, inter alia, that the grouping, in the rationalization process, of forestry with the environmental conservation aspect did not make sense. The hon. member for Orange Grove said the opposite. Perhaps we shall simply have to grow accustomed to there not always being unanimity from those ranks on certain matters. However it was necessary for me to point this out.

Perhaps I have a better opinion of you than he has.

I think the hon. member for Orange Grove should lecture the hon. member for Bryanston when he sees him again and inform him of what the real position is.

*The hon. member for Mooi River touched upon the question of overproduction. From what I have already said, I think that I have replied to his question. We are giving attention to this problem, and over-production will quite probably cease to be a problem. The hon. member also referred to Table Mountain, and I shall return to that.

For the time being I am going to leave the argument of the hon. member for Bryanston at that. In some respects he made a positive contribution, but unfortunately he later, due to ignorance, lapsed into contradictions, something which I could probably with good results leave to the hon. member for Orange Grove to inform him about.

The hon. member for Humansdorp also referred to the increase in exports. He asked whether export possibilities were being further investigated and planned and whether there was co-ordination among exporters. I do not think enough is being done in this regard. Last week I appealed for this market to be kept, and not neglected because there is at present an increase in domestic demand. Because of my efforts in the past to cause these people to act in a co-ordinated way, I was told that I must not prescribe to the private sector, because they knew what they were doing. This was a pity really, because we do not wish to intervene unnecessarily. The problem, however, is that while things are going well, they do not want State intervention, but as soon as they have problems they ask the State to help. If I then say, but surely this is State intervention, I receive the answer that the position has changed. We therefore have this problem, but in the meantime I think we could, with good consequences, convey the hon. members’ train of thought to these people. I am pleased that the hon. member raised this specific matter.

The hon. member also spoke about research in connection with overseas marketing, particularly as far as added value was concerned. This is a matter which I bring to the attention of these people regularly. I do not think that any specific research in this connection is being done. However, the private sector can obtain certain information from our various research organizations.

The hon. member for Standerton spoke to a greater extent about environmental conservation, and I want to thank him for a very positive contribution which he made in this connection. He referred to visits to nature reserves and other areas and to the harmful effect of uncontrolled access. Of course this creates problems everywhere. He also asked for the creation of more facilities, for example in the Cedarberg. Where we open such beautiful areas to the public, we must give constant attention to these matters. I have already referred to the hon. member for Ermelo, with his contribution on exports. He also referred to laminated sleepers, which I have already dealt with.

The hon. member for Caledon referred to conservation in the Hottentots Holland wilderness area. He referred to the variety and wealth of plants there, as well as to the plant invaders, for example hakea and Port Jackson. He also referred to the problem with veld fires. I can assure him that my department is giving attention to all these matters. We are not able to satisfy everyone immediately, but there is definitely satisfactory progress here as the hon. member knows. He also referred to the poachers of certain scarce types of erica in certain areas in particular. These poachers are a tremendous problem. One cannot lay in wait for them at night. Instead, one will have to control the poaching in the marketing area, as the hon. member proposed. I want to thank him for his very enlightening contribution.

The hon. member for Algoa referred to “our greatest and most important heritage”, namely Table Mountain. He quoted from an article in which it was alleged that Table Mountain had already been despoiled. He also referred to the Hey report and to the survey by the University of Cape Town. The hon. member said that the divided control was unsatisfactory and that a committee which was to be appointed to look after Table Mountain should be Cape orientated. It would be a pity if such a wonderful possession, one with which the Cape has been dealing for 300 years now, should suddenly be given to others to look after, for that would be an indication that the Cape did not look after this beautiful mountain. Consequently I agree with the hon. member. We shall do our best to constitute the right committee, but I shall act only on the basis of recommendations. The Directorate of Forestry has for years taken an interest in the weal and woe of this part of its administration. I also have a personal interest in this matter. After the legislation the committee will definitely give attention to it, and we hope that the Cape will provide the enthusiasm and know-how to carry out this task, otherwise it would be a detrimental reflection on the Cape.

I wish to thank all hon. members for their contributions. Unfortunately I do not have the time to go into their questions any further. However, I want to refer briefly to the nature conservation operations which fall under the Directorate of Forestry. I am pleased that the hon. member for Bryanston is present, because it is necessary that he should take cognizance of these operations.

†I want to give a brief outline of nature conservation planning by the Directorate of Forestry. It was previously shown how the department contributes to the national conservation effort by setting aside representative and viable ecological reserves as entrenched wilderness areas and nature reserves. These reserves are in fact critical for the long-term maintenance of such veld types as the Mountain Fynbos, Drakensberg Alpine Veld and Highland Sourveld, which are poorly represented otherwise as national nature reserves. In the past year only the Mzimkulu wilderness area of 28 340 ha and the Mzimkulwana Nature Reserve of 22 751 ha, both in the Natal Drakensberg, have been proclaimed. The hon. member for Mooi River referred to that. This brings the total extent of wilderness areas and of nature reserves to about 245 000 ha and 55 000 ha respectively. However, the department is acutely aware of the need to secure the future of representative eco-systems in veld types not adequately conserved at present. The land in State forests is therefore being assessed so that areas which can serve as viable ecological reserves, are identified and set aside as such, without unnecessarily withdrawing land from potential productive use. The hon. member for Bryanston spoke about an encounter of interest which will take place. This has to be looked at in a balanced way. We cannot attend to the one and leave the other. We have to do both. Thus proposals for proclamation of new wilderness areas in the Groot Winterhoek, Kammanassie and the Baviaanskloof and Kouga Mountains and in the Suurberge are now on hand. The Marloth Nature Reserve at Swellendam will shortly be expanded to a more effective unit. Detailed on-site investigations for demarcation of large, representative nature reserves in the Outeniqua and Tsitsikamma Mountains will shortly be completed. These developments are expected to increase the area of Mountain Fynbos reserves from the present 135 000 ha to a more satisfying 370 000 ha. Problems which have arisen from the proposals to proceed with the dam on the Palmiet River in the Kogelberg, should also be resolved soon and this prime fynbos reserve should be proclaimed in the near future. New nature reserves are in prospect for the Knysna forests, and the Alexandria forest type will be represented in an entrenched reserve for the first time when the Alexandria coast wilderness area is proclaimed in the near future. Other coastal forest types will benefit from major extensions to reserves at East London coast and Dukuduku. The north-eastern Mountain Suurveld of the Eastern and north-eastern Transvaal escarpment, where there is now little public land with vegetation in a natural state, presents acute conservation problems. The department is very well aware of this and proposals are now being submitted for new nature reserves in the Sabie area at Mac-Mac and in the area from Mount Anderson northwards, as well as for the considerable extension to indigenous forest reserves near Magoebaskloof and Louis Trichardt. Further investigations may reveal other areas suitable for special reservation.

I felt that it was very necessary that I should bring this to the attention of the Committee at this stage.

*With that I wish to content myself as far as the activities of the Directorate of Forestry as such are concerned. I have touched briefly on the matters raised by hon. members, and I hope this satisfies them. If there are matters which I have omitted to refer to, I shall give attention to them later. I still hope and trust that the Bill on environmental planning will, after much hard work by the department, be ready for submission next week. This is a matter with which my department and I are doing our utmost, and I think it is necessary for this committee to take cognizance of this fact.

Mr. Chairman, after what the hon. the Minister has just said in response to the plea I made last Friday, it seems to me that it is hardly necessary for me to make use of the remaining six minutes allotted to me. It was very reassuring to hear what he has just said. I hope, and should like to assume—it now appears as though my assumption is correct—that the legislation which the hon. the Minister held out in prospect on Friday, will basically also contain the provision contained in clause 11 of the Physical Planning Bill, which was introduced earlier this year but subsequently withdrawn, I should be very grateful to hear that this is so. I wished to ask the hon. the Minister specifically today not to make provision, in the legislation he held out in prospect, for summary, direct and exclusive control over the mountain by his department. I am pleased that he has given us this assurance. I take it that the idea of advisory committees that would advise him on the future management and development of such nature reserves would become a reality with this new legislation. I was very grateful to hear this.

I also had certain ideas about the nature of this new controlling body and its functions etc., but owing to lack of time I shall not be able to deal with them in detail today. In fact, it does not seem to me to be necessary to go into them in detail today. I submitted certain ideas in this regard to the Director-General of the Directorate in the form of a memorandum, and I wish to express the hope that eventually these ideas will at least be considered when decisions are taken on the matter. Judging by present indications, they will probably be referred to the management committee for consideration.

As I have already said—the hon. the Minister also referred to this—Dr. Hey spoke of a Cape-orientated solution to this problem. What he really meant was that the members of this controlling body should be Cape-orientated. I should like to add a further dimension to this idea and advocate that we should establish a system that is Cape-orientated. It would briefly amount to this, that the control over the natural habitat in question, which would include Table Mountain and the southern mountain ranges, should be entrusted to a new, unique local authority specially established for this purpose, in terms of an ordinance which would have to be passed by the Provincial Council of the Cape Province.

It just so happens that the Cape Province has a unique system of local government legislation that lends itself admirably to the establishment of such a controlling body in the form of such a sui generis local authority if I may call it that. In terms of this legislation it could be a divisional council or a municipality. I prefer a municipal form of local government. It would of course have to be a unique form of local authority in the sense that it would exercise control over an area in which there would not be many voters, and that the members of this board of control would consequently not be elected in the ordinary way, but would have to be appointed. It is inevitable that this would have to be the case.

In the provincial legislation which I should now like to advocate, provision would have to be made for such matters as the precise definition of the boundaries of the local authority, the name to be given to it, the number of board members, the way in which the board is to be constituted, the functions and powers of the board, the sources of finance for the exercise of its functions and responsibilities—and this is very important— the provision of administrative staff and technical resources, the vesting of such a local authority with all the relevant normal powers of local authorities, and particularly the promulgation of regulations and the law enforcement to be able to exercise effective control over the entire area.

One of the principal and self-evident benefits of such a controlling body in the form of a statutorily created local authority, in contrast to other forms of control proposed from time to time, lies in the fact that we shall be dealing with a well-known constitutional concept. As such it has a recognized and familiar status, authority and powers and a standard method of functioning. This would immediately confer a great advantage on such a body, because it would immediately be possible to utilize all the existing statutory machinery of local authorities.

As I have already said, I think that the question of finance is very important. In this respect I wish to associate myself with what Dr. Hey said in his report, namely that the principle that the State would in future have to make a direct contribution to the costs of administrating the area, should now be accepted. Up to now, the State has only made contributions in respect of land purchase, while the local authorities and the provincial administration each contributed a third. I do think, however, that the principles as advocated by Dr. Hey, namely that the State should also make a direct contribution to the management costs, should be accepted. Furthermore it is appropriate that the provincial administration and the local authorities involved would also make contributions, on a compulsory basis, in accordance with a fixed formula which, I would advocate, should be laid down in the legislation.

As far as the constitution of the proposed board is concerned, I believe that provision should be made for members to be appointed. I wish to emphasize that provision should be made for the appointment of the majority of the members by the Administrator and the Minister acting in consultation with each other. I am not saying that one party should nominate some members and that the other party should nominate other members, but what I am advocating, is that the Minister and the Administrator should, in concert and in consultation with each other, appoint the majority of board members. Since we shall expect the local authorities to contribute to the administration, I think it is only fair that they should also be entitled to appoint members of the board. The principal local authorities in this case would be the Cape Town City Council, the Divisional Council of the Cape, and then the smaller municipalities in the area. I think they should also be entitled to appoint members, although this would probably have to take place on a rotational basis, since it would be impossible to constitute a board that would be large enough for every local authority to have direct representation on it.

There are other important benefits which such a system would have, and if time permits I could perhaps just enumerate a few of them. It would have to be an absolutely autonomous and independent body, except that in so far as the financing of its activities are concerned, it would be dependent upon the funds which, as I have said, would be allocated to it. Moreover, the control over and the management of the Peninsula mountains would not merely be a subsidiary matter, as would probably be the case if the responsibility were entrusted directly to a Government department. The main object, the function of the local authority, indeed its whole justification for its existence, for which it would have to exert itself resolutely and on a full-time basis in order to attain its objectives, would be concerned only with the control over and management of the Peninsula mountains. Since we shall be dealing with a recognized constitutional concept, it would also be so much easier for such a controlling body to exercise the necessary control effectively by availing itself of its statutory powers concerning the promulgation of regulations and the enforcement thereof by means of the normal processes of the law.

Another advantage would be the fact that there would of course be continual close co-operation with all the existing local authorities in the area of Greater Cape Town. If it could be a similar authority, it would obviously facilitate co-operation in its field of operations.

Finally, I wish to point out yet another advantage. It could also be added that such a controlling body would automatically fall under the authority of the provincial administration, although always with the trusteeship of the hon. the Minister, something which would undoubtedly be desirable. This would then, as Dr. Hey puts it, make the body purely Cape-orientated.

I realize that it is somewhat premature to advocate this matter in all these details at this early stage, since I also realize that the provision that would be made in the legislation, still have to be processed. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I hope the hon. member for Algoa will forgive me if I do not react to his very interesting speech.

†I want to say something about the impact the new departmental dispensation will have on conservation in South Africa. One of the greatest beneficiaries of the new rationalization of the Public Service will in fact be the environment. To date environmental matters have been of very low priority within the old Department of Environmental Planning. In fact, the word “environmental” was rather a misnomer. It was a little misleading because that department really concerned itself with things other than what we normally regard as environmental matters. With the consolidation of the various environmental modules from different State departments within the Directorate of Forestry and Environmental Conservation we shall now, for the first time in our history, really have a fully-fledged environmental action which I am sure will grow from a division of the directorate to a fully-fledged directorate of its own.

The development in terms of legislation which will follow shortly—legislation already announced by the hon. the Minister—will herald a new era for environmental conservation in South Africa. I am not so sure though that we should not look again at the name of this department, because the term “Environmental Conservation” does not accurately describe all the responsibilities which this department will have to bear. The word “environment” alone, I believe, will describe the activities of the department more appropriately. Therefore, I feel that a name such as “the Department of Water Affairs, Forestry and the Environment”, or even “Environmental Affairs” will probably be more apt because, whilst very important, conservation is only one aspect of this department’s work. The activities of the department will include, inter alia, environmental management, environmental protection, environmental planning, environmental research, the combating of pollution, and the management of national parks, etc. The word “conservation” restricts the current meaning of the entire scope of the department’s activities.

I am delighted to hear that the hon. the Minister and this department will take charge of environmental affairs. From what the hon. the Minister said here earlier today, and from the great work already done by this department over the years, we know that they are genuinely interested in conservation matters. We also know that they fully grasp what the task of environmental conservation really encompasses. We also know of their sensitivity towards environmental conservation. That has been aptly displayed here again this afternoon by the hon. the Minister.

In water affairs and forestry we have to do with renewable resources. Therefore, “Resource Management” is obviously the appropriate term for a department which will look after conservation, generally because it has the right technical background and a full grasp of what is involved. This is actually what the environment is all about. In Talbot Page’s book Conservation and Economic Efficiency he writes as follows—

If one recognizes this, one must ask oneself what is an equitable and reasonable inter-generational use of the resource base. What we are seeing at the moment in many environmental fields, also in South Africa, is neither fair nor equitable. I should like to illustrate my point by quoting a few general examples.

Firstly I should like to refer to the fact that 40% of the world’s tropical rain forests —the richest environments on «this planet— have already been destroyed and are still in the process of being lost to us. These rain forests are currently being felled or burnt at the rate of 20 ha per minute. Furthermore, 30 million square kilometres, or 19% of the earth’s land surface, are threatened with becoming desert areas, and the world’s drylands are being devastated at the rate of 44 ha per minute. Coastal wetlands and shallows—the eco-systems supporting two-thirds of the world’s fisheries—are being destroyed by dredging, dumping and pollution at an equally rapid rate. More than 1 000 vertebrate species and 25 000 plant species are at the moment being threatened with extinction, many of these within the Cape Fynbos areas. All of these factors apply to a greater or lesser extent to South Africa as well.

We have a responsibility which, in world conservation strategy terms, has been defined as—

This department, while it will focus its activities on the conservation of living resources, will also have a great responsibility in that it will have to concern itself with assaults on the interdependent non-living resources—with particular reference to water, soil, nutrients and the atmosphere— all of these to a greater or lesser extent. One reason why I am delighted at the advent of this department is that, basically between national monuments and museums on the one hand, and national parks and nature and forest reserves on the other hand—both of which categories are being very well looked after in South Africa—there is an enormous environmental gap. That environmental gap is going to be filled really and properly for the first time in our history by this department.

I say this because there are urban and natural areas that require multipurpose management for conservation and recreation in order to protect or improve the quality of life enjoyed by the inhabitants of these burgeoning cities and megalopoli that are emerging all over South Africa, and in order to maintain the peace and sanity of people who are living increasingly in an unnatural industrial environment with smoke, dust and noise. The hon. member for Algoa mentioned a few examples. He talked about Table Mountain, for example. There are, of course, other examples in South Africa. There is also the Langebaan Lagoon—I see the hon. member for Moorreesburg is here—there is the Magaliesberg, the Rietvlei area, etc. There are many areas in or near potential or actual urban areas which need to be conserved but which do not fall within the classic conservation definition that we have had in South Africa in the past. That is why we look forward to the new legislation that will enable management committees to be appointed to rationalize these conflicts and to stabilize these problem areas and situations. I believe that from this perhaps a new category of conservation area could emerge. In that regard the hon. member for Algoa made a very fertile suggestion. What we may see emerging are areas under public control and supervision, with a common management policy and controlled access with multiple use, all of which may not necessarily resort, or resort at once, under public ownership. It is the cost of public ownership that so often obstructs effective environmental action. This kind of thinking would bring us into line with European norms. I just happen to have one statistic in this regard. In Britain, e.g., something like 250 000 live, farm and do various other things within so-called conserved or conservation areas. I just want to leave hon. members with the point that one cannot separate totally, in one’s mind, the built environment from the unbuilt environment. I do not have enough time to motivate that statement. Perhaps when the relevant legislation is introduced we could say more about that.

This brings me to Rietvlei, that great wetland which is the last Cape Flats ecosystem of significant size. It is the area which, with Table Mountain, represents the most important and last remaining natural area not degraded by man in the metropolitan area of Cape Town, an area which is of national and international significance as a wetland and bird reserve. The hon. the Minister is aware of all the work that has been done by the subsidiary committee for the coastal zone in the past year, work which followed on my appeals in Parliament last year. I want to ask the hon. the Minister to consider proclaiming Rietvlei a nature reserve. In view of the positive results of this work, I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether we cannot perhaps proclaim Rietvlei a natural area in terms of the Physical Planning and Utilization of Resources Act or in terms of the guide plan arrangements. Pending such action, should there be any delay, may I ask for an interim management committee to be formed for this great wetland area, at the same time as the management committee is perhaps formed for Table Mountain. I ask this so that the work that has been done so far can be continued, pending proclamation.

I wish to end by offering my best wishes to the hon. the Minister and the department for the great task that lies ahead. Knowing this hon. Minister and the department as I do, I know that they will be more than equal to the task that lies before them.

Mr. Chairman, I shall refer, in the course of my speech, to a few interesting ideas expressed by the hon. member for Maitland. Before doing so, however, there is something else I should just like to mention.

The story of South Africa, if correctly told, is perhaps one of the greatest success stories in modern history and is, furthermore, a dramatic tale of the struggle of man against the powers of nature. With further reference to what the hon. member for Maitland has said, I wish to congratulate the hon. the Minister on being the first bearer of the new standard of the new Directorate of Forestry and Environmental Conservation entrusted with the duty of telling this beautiful story to the world. The Parks Board will in the near future also fall within the jurisdiction of the department. Before expressing my view on the underlying philosophy which, in my view, this department should project, there is a specific matter which I should first like to touch upon. It is something that has been said repeatedly in this House this year.

In the oldest geographical area of our civilization in the Boland, we are building a new development axis along the coast between Cape Town and Saldanha. Along this development axis there stands today, inter alia, South Africa’s first nuclear power-station. This is an outstanding example of the creative ability of man in the field of technology.

I wish to plead here and now—and the hon. the Minister must please listen carefully now—that we should incorporate in this development axis one of the most striking and most colourful projects from the point of view of conservation. It should be a project which, next to the Kruger National Park, should become one of the most popular conservation projects in our country. The plan that I wish to propose, comprises five different facets which, in my view, should be devised by the Parks Board and must ultimately fall under the control of the Parks Board. I am not able to go into every one of the facets in detail, and so I shall just touch on them briefly. In the first place—I also raised this during the debate on the hon. the Prime Minister’s Vote and I was not given the cold shoulder—there is the take-over of all the islands along the West Coast, for example Dassen Island, Jut ten Island, Malgas, Schaapen Island and Meeu Island, in order to protect our immense variety of sea-bird life and to display them to tourists under the very strictest control—please note: the very strictest control. Why should we keep referring to this bird paradise of our country as guano islands? Let our brilliant natural scientists come forward and devise a master-plan for us which would ultimately be implemented by the Parks Board.

The second phase should be the take-over of the Langebaan Lagoon. The hon. member for Maitland has already referred to this. The colourful conservation work in and around this lagoon could be among the most exciting work the Parks Board has ever undertaken in South Africa. One need only read a book like A Giant in Hiding by Lawrence Green—and I have given it to the hon. the Minister—to realize the full significance of this beautiful part of the world to man and to South Africa. In the third place, there is the demarcation of a marine reserve over a large area, a marine reserve that would border on the fine and virtually undefiled coastline between Silverstream and the Coloured beach facilities being developed there, and Langebaan. Today one can go to the countries of the Orient and see what is being done in the field of marine conservation. It is not necessary for us in South Africa to confine conservation work to the land. We have a long coastline with an interesting marine life and the time is ripe that we, too, should demarcate an area as a marine reserve to form part of the scheme I am advocating. The fourth facet should be the establishment of a reserve for small game between the coastline and the West Coast Park. Apart from the tortoises and wild ostriches, the greatest variety of small game in South Africa today is to be found among those white sand dunes. To tourists, this is a gem in its own right. We do not only wish to look at elephants and lions in our game parks. This fine asset of South Africa will be irrevocably lost to us unless we take prompt steps to conserve it within the confines of a large reserve. The fifth facet— and to us Bolanders this is perhaps the most important of all—would be a wild flower reserve that should or could cover the same area, because these two facets would not conflict with each other. Where else in South Africa could one find a region with a greater variety of wild flowers than here—and when I say this I include Namaqualand? Darling’s flower show after good winter rains has already become world-renowned. This is today the world of the nemesia flower, the marigold, the woolly-bearded protea, the spider-flower, the sunshade, the yellow cat’s tail, black-eyed bean, the “jakkalsstert”, the nasturtium and the “uintjie”. It is the world of the chinkerinchee and the mauve africander. This is a lovely part of the world that will be lost to us unless, in this process of development, we give it due consideration and come forward with new creative ideas. If one is engaged in politics, one makes promises. Sometimes it helps. The name of Paul Kruger is connected with a great game reserve today. If the hon. the Minister would undertake the task I have referred to, I shall certainly see to that it will bear his name. [Interjections.]

In our struggle to improve our country’s international image, the most natural weapons at our disposal are not those things which are, in the first place, man-made. We need only listen to what the thousands of tourists that visit our country say when one talks to them after they have paid a visit here. What is it that strikes them? It is our climate and our out-door living. Our beaches along our coastline are today probably among the most beautiful playgrounds in the whole world. We have a paradise of animal life and bird-life, of flora and marine-life. Indeed, the colourfulness of our ethnic diversity fits into this pattern. I think an exciting image of this natural life in South Africa could be sold to the outside world by the Directorate of Forestry and Environmental Conservation. I think that in this respect the Directorate should become one of the most important of our weapons, and I express the hope that the hon. the Minister will have the necessary creativity and enthusiasm to take up this weapon and start anew to build a fresh image of South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, over the years the hon. member for Moorreesburg has become known in this House, in the first instance for being prepared to say what he feels. Time and again he has come up with proposals in this House some of which have been radical and have shaken his party colleagues, but he has always strongly maintained his identity in the House. Today we again listened to a speech which showed that he felt strongly about the cause which he championed here. I can only say that I support the hon. member very strongly in the stand that he adopted. I have no doubt that the hon. the Minister listened very attentively to what the hon. member had to say and that the Piet Marais West Coast Reserve will certainly be established shortly. I trust the hon. the Minister will support the proposal very strongly.

Today I do not want to discuss nature conservation, but instead prefer to come back to forestry matters. Whereas the climate in South Africa and the absence of a high rainfall could certainly result in South Africa not being numbered among the major timber producers of the world, South Africa has nevertheless succeeded to a large extent in becoming self-sufficient as far as timber is concerned.

The recession period between 1974 and 1978, together with the recession in the building industry, resulted in surpluses in the supply of timber in the round as well as sawn timber. The smaller timber growers in particular had a great deal of difficulty in selling their products during this period. Fortunately the recent upswing in the building industry, as well as the sustained and successful export drive have contributed greatly towards alleviating the situation.

I wish to put it to the hon. the Minister, however, that in the long term we shall not be able to reply on the export of timber in the round or even of sawn timber to secure for ourselves permanent markets abroad. Production costs in South Africa, as well as the transport costs will make it more and more difficult for us to remain competitive abroad. That is why I maintain that we should rather see the future of the timber industry in terms of processed export products.

I would suggest that our exports should be largely in the form of pinewood furniture. The hon. the Minister is certainly aware that the popularity of furniture made of this kind of wood is rapidly increasing. I want to state, however, that virtually nothing is being done by the authorities to stimulate or assist this industry. While export has increased tremendously over the last two or three years, the price which the manufacturer has to pay for timber, has increased tremendously too. I understand that the price of timber has increased by as much as 120% in the last year. I believe this price cannot be justified by the increase in production costs. I should like to hear what the hon. the Minister suggests in this regard, because it is clear that if we want to succeed in the export of processed timber products, the price of that timber will have to be checked as far as possible.

Is the hon. member calling for price control?

No, I do not advocate price control, but what I do want to say, is that the fixing of prices should be looked at from time to time.

In the report it is mentioned that the owners of sawmills and the marketers of sawn timber have to a large extent succeeded in stabilizing the price of timber. However, one is inclined to ask whether the price has been stabilized, or whether it has simply been agreed to determine a price that sometimes bears no relation what soever to the real cost. I contend that if we are not careful, we are going to place the local timber processer, the manufacturer of furniture in a position where he will not be able to compete on the international markets.

The next question I want to discuss is the sale of State sawmills to the private sector. This has not been mentioned in this debate thus far. I understand the hon. the Minister’s department has already arranged that one or possibly two State sawmills will be involved. I know for certain that the State sawmill at Wemmershoek is being made available to the Coloured Development Corporation. I understand, too, that that matter has already been settled.

But I informed hon. members about that this afternoon. Did that hon. member not listen?

If the matter has been concluded as far as this one sawmill is concerned, what about the others? I want to put it to the hon. the Minister that if we do not take care and if those sawmills are taken over by large groups which can simply create a monopolistic situation by way of price fixing, we are then going to …

But I said that we should guard against this very thing this afternoon.

It is pointless the hon. the Minister saying in this House that we should guard against it. What we have to know in this House, is what action the hon. the Minister is going to take to prevent things like that and to see that it does not happen. We are guarding against many things, but once they have taken place, then it is too late to take action. I should very much like to know from the hon. the Minister exactly what action he is going to take to prevent these sawmills from falling into the hands of a few sawmill owners who will simply push up the prices, as a result of which the smaller processer of timber will not succeed in remaining competitive in the foreign markets.

Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the hon. member for Wynberg to forgive me for not following upon what he said.

I want to associate myself with the cause championed by the hon. member for Moorreesburg for this afternoon, viz. an extension of our conservation areas. Permit me, too, just to say that the way in which the hon. member for Moorreesburg argued his case here this afternoon is characteristic of the positive contributions he makes as a member of the National Parks Board. His appointment to that board is certainly an asset, not only for the conservationists in South Africa, but for the South Western Cape in particular.

Since we discussed the National Parks Board last year during the discussion of the vote of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture, and before the present directorate took that board over, the Chief Director of the National Parks Board, Dr. R. Knobel, has retired and was succeeded by Mr. Dolf Brynardt. I think it is appropriate that we in this House should pay tribute to Dr. R. Knobel. He is considered one of the greatest international nature conservationists and in the centuries to come future generations will be grateful to him for what he has done for South Africa. We are fortunate in having a person like Mr. Dolf Brynardt to succeed him, and we trust that he will fill that position with the same dignity. In the meantime we have had a new chairman as well, prof. Fritz Eloff, and we in this House wish prof. Eloff everything of the best in his task. We also pay tribute to the previous chairman, the present hon. member for Koedoespoort.

It is true that we have entered the last decade in which conservation areas can be set aside. All over the world the ’eighties are regarded as the last part of this century in which it will still be possible to plan for setting aside conservation areas. Unfortunately it is true, however, that according to the norm of the international society for nature conservation, South Africa’s image leaves much to be desired. We in South Africa compare unfavourably with countries with a smaller land area, for example Japan and others which, as far as land area is concerned, have made larger areas available for nature conservation.

For that reason I wish to associate myself with the hon. member for Moorreesburg in requesting that we consider the Richtersveld, Namaqualand, the Kransberg, the Sederberge and also take a look at the Cape fynbos.

The reason why I should like to make a plea this afternoon, is that in the Kruger National Park it has become necessary to make additional arrangements for water supply for visitors to the park, particularly those accommodated in Pretoriuskop, Lower Sabie and Skukuza. A decision on an emergency scheme, the Sabie Emergency Scheme, has been taken, which will consist of a sunken dam into which water can be pumped when it is plentiful so as to supply these camps with water during the dry months.

That scheme will cost us approximately R450 000. I understand the idea is that the Treasury will provide us with R225 000 and that we shall have to negotiate a loan of R225 000. I call upon the hon. the Minister this afternoon to provide the National Parks Board with the required R450 000 to ensure this essential storage of water, for in that way we shall ensure that tourists will come to the Kruger National Park.

We should perhaps be giving more serious consideration to the supply of water for the fauna and flora of the Kruger National Park. I know there has been an investigation in the Mbeymide River. There the department has found that the water in the river is not sufficient to warrant the construction of a full-fledged dam. Together with our love for nature, we also have faith in nature, and for that reason I want to request that this department should once again look into the possibility of building a weir in the Mbeymide River which will supply not only the camps but also the animals with water, because for them it will be invaluable.

Let me conclude. In my philosophy of life there is one fear which sometimes annoys me. One of the first commands that man received, was to have dominion over the beasts of the earth. We are so inclined to care for the animals which are a source of income to us, but not to look after those animals in nature which are of so much importance to us. I sometimes fear that I do not always regard that command given to me as a farmer, nature lover or member of the Parks Board in a serious light. I call upon every hon. member to be aware of that responsibility and to recognize that we are commanded to take care of the beasts of the earth.

Mr. Chairman, by way of amplifying the idea I expressed on Friday, viz. that the department had invited the public to those areas over which it had control, and the appeal I made for the provision of basic amenities—not luxuries— to be in a position to receive the public, I want to say the following. People grow fond of nature and the outdoors and of what they regard as their own in their regions. On the occasion of a victory over the WP by the Transvaal cricket team, I asked a very great cricket fan, Chrisjan Thys, a Brown man: “What are you left with now that the Western Province has lost?” In a very fine reply he said: “The mountain.” He meant Table Mountain. That cannot be removed from the Cape. Even if Transvaal beats the Cape in many other areas, the mountain remains the Cape’s mountain.

When I use the word Legó-gót, I think the hon. the Minister immediately thinks of White River. The people in that part of the world are fond of that mountain and that region. They need only see the mountain to feel at home. In the same way the people of Piet Retief know that if one refers to Madlangampisi one is referring to their home, to what belongs to them, to what is beautiful to them. The people of the Karoo refer to the vastness and the grace prevailing there; in which they feel at home. The rest of us want to know what things are like there. We want to go and drive around there, but then there must be opportunities for us to be received there. In addition to the amenities we need, we also ask whether our department cannot be given funds to make more staff available to act in an advisory and useful way so that they can help people who arrive there and provide them with guidance.

We know that the honorary forestry officials have a very difficult task. They have a great deal of other work too and are consequently unable to cope with all these other activities as well. Is there no possibility of our instituting an investigation to determine to what extent we could grant assistance to the public by supplementing the staff?

Finally we are also advocating an information programme for the public. In this regard I have in mind several media we could develop and make more extensive use of. By means of brief, succinct radio talks we could instil in our people an appreciation of nature, for in essence man remains a child. As the individual used to climb trees as a child and then felt that he had conquered them, in the same way he climbs a mountain as an adult and says, boastfully that he has conquered the mountain, a claim which is in actual fact untrue, for long after he has returned to dust, the mountain will still be there. By means of television programmes we could bring home to our people the necessity for conservation and the care for our beautiful natural heritage. Furthermore I have in mind reports and articles on this subject in our daily newspapers and posters on this subject. In respect of forest fires, for example, I am thinking of the poster of the buck with tears streaming down its face. Perhaps we could organize a competition which would encourage people to design posters to draw attention to what we must preserve in nature and not trample underfoot. We could also place emphasis on nature conservation by means of exhibitions at large exhibitions or large gatherings.

In this regard I have in mind a further programme we could undertake. Is it not possible for us, through the directorate, to invite youth groups and other leadership groups and perhaps even provide the transport, to have discussions with the directorate’s people who are knowledgeable people? In this way our youth leaders could in fact be educated in this matter and could therefore convey the message even further. The great message which must be instilled, is “Preserve and utilize”. We must not simply preserve for the sake of conservation, but should also concentrate on the utilization of those eternally beautiful things that have been granted to us.

Mr. Chairman, it is a particular privilege for me to be able to speak today, for today it is exactly 32 years ago since the election was held in which the NP came into power. These have been 32 very good and blessed years, and I hope and trust that the next 32 years will also be blessed years in this exquisite country of ours. For that reason I am pleased that I too am able to make my contribution today to this debate concerning this fine and beautiful country of ours. I should like to associate myself with the words of the hon. member for Standerton on the question of environmental conservation and utilization.

To me the concept “environmental conservation” is far wider than what many people regard as nature conservation. It includes the air, the land, the water as well as the fauna and flora. I am thinking of areas with unpolluted air and water and in which there is a natural and stable balance between the flora and fauna. It may rightly be said that man must also be able to utilize these areas, but in such a way that he does not disturb the ecology of those areas.

It is a good thing that environmental conservation in its entirety is being brought together under the planning and the control of one Government department in the rationalizing of the Public Service.

It is true that South Africa has too few conservation areas. We have now heard three Capetonians making appeals for certain areas, and I too should like to make an appeal for one area in Northern Natal. This concerns the area stretching from St. Lucia mouth in the south up to Kosi Bay in the north and which could in aggregate comprise a larger surface area than the Kruger National Park itself.

With regard to the idea of the conservation of the area, I want to say at once that it was not originally my idea. I know that casual ideas have already been expressed on the wonderful potential which exists there. I recall that the well-known writer on conservation, the propagandist of conservation, T. C. Robertson, wrote a short article in Veldtrust in the early ’sixties. Furthermore I am aware of the fact that the present hon. Minister—that is why I am so pleased that he is the Minister that has to carry on this good work—has expressed this idea as well. So this idea could even have originated with him. In 1964 I myself, as chief information officer of that region, made a submission to the office of the Prime Minister in respect of the tremendous potential of that area.

In that area we have the beautiful Kosie Bay in the north. There are also areas such as Sordwana Bay and certain conservation areas. There is the False Bay area and then the whole lake complex in Kosi Bay. The existing Mkuzi Game Park is also situated in this area. There is the Ndumu Game Reserve and then the whole Josini Dam area. There are also certain State-owned properties on which a decision as to what has to be done with them, has not yet been reached. As far as future consolidation is concerned, one does not know exactly how the boundaries of kwaZulu are going to be drawn. However, the human factor can be brought in and a partnership with kwaZulu could be worked out there, whatever happens.

People who know that region know that the best fishing in our country is in the St. Lucia-False Bay area. Our best deep-see fishing is done from Sordwana and other areas there. One need only think of the tiger fish in the Pongola River and the Josini Dam. There is also the viewing of animal life in the existing game reserves. The Ndumu Game Reserve is known throughout the world as one of the most interesting game reserves for bird life. There are also areas in which controlled hunting may take place and to which overseas people may come to hunt for trophies. The recreation offered by those rest camps is unsurpassed anywhere in the world. There are the most beautiful, unpolluted blue waters. A certain Mr. Wallace, a photographic journalist, wrote in a schedule B of one of the annual reports of the Department of Tourism—

This is the type of thing one reads about that part of the world. Therefore the tremendous potential there speaks for itself.

At one stage the reedbuck was considered to be an endangered species, but a few were then preserved in the almost tropical area near the St. Lucia lake and within a few years a count brought to light that at that stage there were approximately 6 000 reedbuck in that area: Bear in mind now that that species was at one stage considered to be an endangered species.

In the area there is also what is regarded as one of the three smallest species of antelope in the world. It is the Livingstone antelope which is also considered to be an endangered species.

I want to refer very briefly to the financial implications if that area were properly utilized. Our spending by local tourists last year amounted to R820 million. The foreign exchange earned by us as a result of the visits of foreign tourists, amounted to R402 million. If one adds the two amounts together, one finds that we made R1 222 million from tourism. If only 50% of our local tourists spent two nights in one of our game reserves, this would mean R18 million per annum. Here we have a renewable asset and not a dwindling asset as is often the case with our other assets. If one considers the secondary and tertiary industries that go hand in hand with tourism, one can imagine that this would amount to billions of rands per year.

Finally, I just want to say that I am tremendously pleased that this rationalizing is taking place so that everything can be brought under the aegis of one umbrella body. I believe that from now on matters can only improve in our conservation effort.

Mr. Chairman, it was an exceptional privilege for me to experience so much harmony and enthusiasm here this afternoon in connection with a matter which is very near to the heart of many hon. members. It is therefore a great privilege for me to be able to reply to the debate and thank hon. members.

One hon. member still has problems with timber. I think it would cause something of a false note if I were not to deal with his problem first. Therefore I had better do it first and then try to deal with the other matters together.

I now wish to try and reply to the questions asked by the hon. member for Wynberg relating to his problems in connection with the prices of timber—actually pine—for the manufacture of furniture, particularly since this is also an industry which has grown extremely rapidly over the past number of years and the hon. member is of the opinion that there has been an unrealistic increase in the prices of industrial timber from which this furniture is made. The hon. member also spoke about the saw-millers acting in concert, etc. I am of course fully aware of this problem. Some of these people have come to discuss matters with me from time to time. However, the position is in fact that relatively inferior timber is used to manufacture this furniture. High-grade timber is not used. In the nature of the matter there has not been a method of grading this wood either. Therefore problems arose when a start was made with manufacturing pine furniture for export and a tremendous demand for this type of furniture developed.

Now, we know that we have a free economy and therefore, if there is no demand for a product, it does not fetch a good price. However as soon as there is a heavy demand for a product, it becomes valuable again. Therefore it is the ordinary market mechanism that plays a role here. I think that I also mentioned in my introductory speech this afternoon that approximately 50% of the timber brought to saw-mills is lost. This is because there is so much waste material. Much of the timber used for the making of furniture is regarded as waste timber. There was virtually no price for this timber. However the hon. member maintains that the price rocketed. It is true that the price increased. However, relative to the prices of other timber, high grade timber, the price was exceptionally low. Now the hon. member wants from me a clear answer to the question whether we will look into these matters. All I can do is point out that I do not intend to interfere constantly in private initiative and the development of any industry. What I will do, however, is to issue warnings. At the opening of their new building at Kempton Park last Wednesday, I warned saw-millers. I believe that this is in fact as far as one can go. I do not believe that one solves problems by introducing governmental price control. Having gone to a great deal of trouble to do so, I succeeded in obtaining exemption from control for these people. I warned them not to act irresponsibly, and we must have confidence in their conduct. However, if matters get out of hand and the industry suffers thereby, we shall have to consider taking steps of some kind. However, we cannot on the one hand say that we have a free economy and on the other have too much State interference. It is true that there are certain cases which we must indeed give attention to.

Then the hon. member for Wynberg referred to the take-over of the State saw-mills and said that the State saw-mill at Wemmershoek had already been taken over. Of course that is not so. That saw-mill has not yet been taken over. Negotiations with the Coloured Development Corporation are still in progress. If an agreement can be reached, I shall have to approach the Cabinet. We cannot do anything without a proper agreement. Quite probably we shall have to specify by way of legislation how such a matter is to be controlled in cases where the State and another party operate a saw-mill jointly. In the case of the Coloured Development Corporation, I am not sure how this can be handled financially. Hon. members must understand that this is an asset for the State. This is something in which the State has invested and it cannot simply transfer from one branch of the State to another or even to a semi-State institution without proper financial arrangements. I just want to assure the hon. member once again—I have already done so in my speech this afternoon—of the fact that we are guarding against over-concentration in the timber industry. The hon. member wanted to know exactly what I was going to do. He says that it is not enough simply to guard against certain things. He wants to know what I am going to do. I could have said what I was going to do if I had known what was going to happen. That is the only answer I can give him. To stand here and make predictions about things that could possibly happen and then to suggest possible solutions is not desirable. It is not even possible to argue about it. All we can do is to see to it that State saw-mills are not sold to groups when there is already an over-concentration in the industry. We shall have to attempt to involve the other saw-mills on a partnership basis as far as possible. As I said, if necessary, certain State saw-mills should probably be retained. Further than that I cannot go.

Now I come to the issue of conservation. Before referring in detail to hon. member’s speeches—and exceptionally positive and important speeches have been made here this afternoon, speeches which impressed and interested me greatly—I should like to refer to a matter relating to conservation in general and preservation of our environment. We want to involve everyone in this country in looking after our environment with enthusiasm and keeping it clean. We should like motivated people to see to it that the best possible environment is preserved for all of us and for the coming generations. A praiseworthy environment-oriented campaign is at present being launched jointly by the National Environmental Awareness Council—a student organization—and the organization “Keep South Africa Clean” is being conducted in Soweto. This campaign involves, inter alia, an intensive environmental education programme concentrating on the prevention of littering and the beautification of properties. It is also aimed at the provision of recreation facilities, the reclamation and re-use of materials such as glass, metal, paper and plastic and the introduction of a local ash-brick industry and a programme to promote the large-scale cultivation of fruit and vegetables. This campaign can make a major contribution, particularly in our Black urban areas. Here I should like to express my appreciation and at the same time confirm that the State, too, is aware of its responsibility in this connection. Whereas in the past funds have been forthcoming from private bodies, the State will now also make a contribution towards the organization called “Keep South Africa Clean” in order to assist them, particularly since we are dealing here with young people, scholars, who are motivated and are cleaning up the Black areas and other areas. It is only right that the State should make a contribution on a rand-for-rand basis.

With regard to environmental conservation in general I now wish to refer to the hon. member for Algoa. He broached certain ideas in connection with Table Mountain, but it is not a question of Table Mountain only. The issue concerns the whole mountain range down to Simonstown.

Although a certain part of the area at Cape Point falls under the control of the province, we must have co-ordinated action in this connection. He advanced certain ideas as to how this could be done. He mentioned a control body and said that the State should make a contribution. All I want to say is that the advisory committees that have been appointed must advise me. I shall listen to them with great pleasure. Thus I do not wish to impose ideas on these people. I merely want to express the hope that we shall take positive action and achieve something that will grip everyone’s imagination. I think I must leave the matter at that and express my sincere thanks for the hon. member’s fine contribution.

†I want to thank the hon. member for Maitland, who is a dedicated conservationist, for his contribution to conservation in general. He also referred to Table Mountain, the Magaliesberg and Rietvlei and then spoke about the cost of public ownership of land to be conserved and said that we should try to get conservation organizations going to control the different areas. I am in full agreement with him that something very positive must be done in respect of, for instance, Rietvlei, Table Mountain and the mountain ridges here and also the Magaliesberg. I think the committees I referred to in my reply to the hon. member for Algoa are a very important development. They will have to investigate and then come forward with proposals.

*I want to leave it at that for the time being and thank the hon. member sincerely. The positive contributions and ideas of hon. members in this House are very important.

The hon. member for Moorreesburg came forward with a notable proposal this afternoon. Allow me to begin by making the general statement that on various occasions I have said that we in South Africa do not do enough in regard to nature conservation and environmental conservation. I referred to this in public, inter alia, at the opening of the Hottentots Holland Nature Reserve and also at a conference in Pretoria on threatened species years ago. I think I also referred to it when we discussed a private motion on Kirstenbosch in this House. We have set aside too small a percentage of our country’s surface area for this purpose. It is therefore an exceptional privilege for me at this stage to be in a position, as the Minister entrusted with this matter, to contribute something positive, whereas formerly I could only speak about the matter and ask others to do something about it. As I said, the hon. member for Moorreesburg came forward this afternoon with a practical proposal in connection with the creation of a national park here in the Western Cape. I found it particularly stimulating and I want to thank him for his proposal. He has already elucidated certain aspects of this matter and I want to say that I, too, am very enthusiastic about it. I can also make it known that on Friday I shall be paying a visit to the area in question in company with the hon. member for Moorreesburg—in his constituency of course—and members of the Parks Board: Prof. Eloff as chairman of the Parks Board and Mr. Brynardt as director of the Parks Board. We are therefore going to look at the area and subsequently we shall get scientists to carry out further investigations and report on the matter. I give the hon. member the undertaking that I shall do everything possible in this connection. I do not care what the park is called if it can be established.

†The hon. member said “Give a dog a bad name and hang him”. I can tell him that I would not like that to happen.

*Therefore we shall leave the question of a name aside for the time being and go into the matter further. I am very enthusiastic about this and therefore I have arranged that we shall pay a visit to the area in question on Friday. I hope that this visit will throw light on the possibilities there and that it will also stimulate the members of the Parks Board. I have no doubt that with a view to the development of our country in all spheres and in view of the possible situation 50 to 100 years hence, there is a great need for this. The Kruger National Park is regularly overcrowded. There is going to be development on a vast scale in the Western Cape, similar to the development at Richards Bay in Natal. In this regard I want to associate myself with the hon. member for South Coast who asked for the establishment of a large nature park which would extend from St. Lucia to Kosi Bay. This, too, is a fine idea. We must give consideration to these ideas. What will the position be 50 to 100 years hence? People are already saying to me: “We hear the Parks Board is going to fall within your jurisdiction. Can we get a place in the Kruger National Park? We are struggling.” Well, it is not my task to find places for people there, nor am I interested in doing so. I can tell hon. members that I grew up near the game park. I therefore know how it has developed since the early ’thirties and how full it gets nowadays, and the interest our people take in it. We must also envisage such a park for the Cape in these specific surroundings, one which could perhaps include the islands. I do not know whether I have the right to discuss the islands, because they may fall under a different department, but that will have to be sorted out. The flowers in the vicinity of Darling and the bird life is tremendously interesting, and therefore all these facets must be included. I appreciate the tremendous zeal and enthusiasm with which the hon. member made his proposal. We are going to look at the area on Friday and I hope that we can achieve something thereby.

The hon. member for Bethlehem, who is a member of the Parks Board, discussed the extension of conservation areas. I want to associate myself with the tribute he paid to Dr. Knobel. When I spoke to Dr. Knobel about the creation of a large park from St. Lucia northwards, a matter which the hon. member for South Coast also touched on, Dr. Knobel was not very happy about it because he could not really have the planning as he would have wanted it. However my opinion is that with the enthusiasm of the new people there, we shall be able to take another look at this area because the matter was very well motivated by the hon. member for South Coast.

I hope that the hon. member for Bethlehem, as a member of the Parks Board, will also be able to come and look at this imaginative proposal by the hon. member for Moorreesburg, and that we shall be able to achieve success by way of sound cooperation. He indicates that South Africa compares unfavourably as far as its conservation areas are concerned, and I have already referred to this aspect. He also referred to the water supply at Skukuza and to possible dams and so on that must be built. This has already been brought to my attention, but I do not wish to go into that now. The financing of such projects creates problems, of course.

The hon. member for Standerton asked that more basic facilities be created. He also asked that the information staff should be supplemented. Unfortunately the Directorate of Forestry and Environmental Planning does not have sufficient staff to perform this task. We do our best with the limited staff at our disposal. Nevertheless we shall consider the hon. member’s proposal. He also referred to information brochures. Such information brochures are of course available. He also asked for television programmes and coverage by the daily newspapers. However it seems as if television and the daily newspapers needs sensation to promote nature conservation and educate people. Unless it is associated with some kind of agitation, they do not regard it as newsworthy. It is a great pity that this is so, and I want to appeal to them to make a contribution from their side as well. The department always considers how best to utilize staff to promote the cause of nature conservation.

I think I have now attended to all the arguments advanced by hon. members and I want to conclude by thanking all members once again for their fine contributions, the enthusiasm they have displayed and the conservation efforts they have suggested. Within the next week we shall be discussing legislation relating to environmental conservation, and I wish to express the hope that this will be another opportunity for hon. members to come forward with proposals, because this is a matter which deserves the attention of all of us. The department and I are very enthusiastic about this and we are relying on the assistance and co-operation of all hon. members.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No. 30.—“Health, Welfare and Pensions”:

Mr. Chairman, I claim the privilege of the half-hour.

The practise of medicine in South Africa is experiencing a number of critical conditions. I think the hon. the Minister is well aware of many of the areas in which critical conditions apply and that he has in fact had occasion to have to deal with some of these critical circumstances. I should like to deal with a few today and to bring them pertinently to the attention of the hon. the Minister with the request that he give urgent and immediate attention to them.

The first one I want to deal with is the critical shortage of Black doctors in South Africa. I think the hon. the Minister is well aware of that fact. I think it is important to establish why it is so and to take steps to improve the situation that has arisen. In South Africa potential Black medical students cannot freely apply to five medical schools in South Africa, whereas White students can freely apply and be admitted. Blacks are in fact restricted to only Durban and Medunsa. In the first place, Black medical students are restricted in terms of the medical schools where they can apply. I think in terms of the field of medicine it is high time that the Government take steps to allow universities to open their medical faculties to Black students without any restrictions whatsoever. During 1968 to 1977 only 3% of the doctors who graduated in South Africa were Black doctors, and that despite the fact that 70,4% of the South African population consists of Black people. These figures in themselves must surely suggest to the Government, to the hon. the Minister, that this is a most unsatisfactory and serious situation and that something must be done about it. Why does this situation exist? I have already mentioned the one fact, viz. that Blacks are restricted to those medical faculties where they can apply and I have said that that situation can be dealt with effectively by allowing all medical schools to admit Blacks without any restriction. However, the matter goes much further than that. In fact, the very inferior education which Black children receive in terms of the Black education system in South Africa is probably the major cause of the fact that South Africa is short of Blacks in the various professional grades in our country.

Please prove that statement.

If one compares Black education in South Africa with Black education in other Third World countries, it may compare favourably with those countries, but when one compares Black education in South Africa with White education in South Africa, one can only conclude that the Blacks get a very inferior education, inferior in terms of the facilities that are available, inferior in terms of the qualifications and the abilities of the teachers involved, despite the goodwill on the part of those teachers and inferior in terms of the lack of laboratories, the lack of sports fields, the lack of libraries, in fact the lack of the whole gamut of facilities which are necessary in order to give a person a thorough education as a foundation for him to achieve further professional status. Therefore our Black people are at a tremendous disadvantage. This is a fact; let us not argue about it. These Black people find that if they do enter a university to study for a profession they are at a disadvantage. They are at a disadvantage. That is also a fact. Now what can we do about it? We can either wait until such time that Black education reaches the levels of White education—and it will probably take decades before this Government achieves that—or we can drop the standards of professional education, which is totally unsatisfactory. But I believe that the Government must now take urgent and immediate steps to identify promising Black children, children who have the talent and the ability that suggest that they will be able to benefit from a professional education. I believe that the Government must set up machinery and create methods whereby Black children who have the talent and the ability can be identified at an early age and then that those children should be given the opportunity of achieving a school education of a standard equal to that which White children are entitled in order to provide for the material for further professional education in South Africa. We do not have the time to wait for Black education to reach the levels of White education.

You are dealing with the wrong Vote.

I am dealing with the training of doctors in South Africa.

I have nothing to do with that.

It lies at the root of the matter. The hon. the Minister must not argue about it now. I am simply mentioning facts.

Why do you not take up your placards?

No, just listen.

†I say that the Government must take immediate and urgent steps to identify the Coloured children who have the ability to benefit from a professional education, so that those children can immediately be given the education which is necessary to prepare them for a professional education and to be given that professional education. This should apply particularly in the field of medicine. It is the only way in which, in the reasonable short-term, the tremendous shortage of Black doctors can be alleviated in South Africa. I am, however, not only talking about doctors, I am talking about all professions, although in this debate I particularly stress doctors. There is no way in which the country and its people can wait for the day when Black education has caught up with White education in order to provide people of colour with these qualifications and these abilities to benefit by further professional education.

I should also like to make another suggestion, namely that the Black city of Soweto is particularly suited from many points of view to be the seat of a very large and modern comprehensive new Black hospital and university with a medical faculty. Not only is Soweto the largest and the most popular city in South Africa. It is, in fact, representative of a very large number of ethnic groups coming from every part of South Africa. So as a field which is suitable for medical research and for the training of medical people Soweto could not be equalled by any other part of this country. It is a city which has many thousands of Black children of a high standard of intelligence, lacking only the opportunity to prove their ability educationally, and for that is necessary the institution which will make it possible for them. In Soweto today we have one of the finest hospitals, namely Baragwanath, but this is already totally overcrowded. It is already bursting at the seams. It has reached the very limits of its ability to provide for the requirements of the people of Soweto. There are tens of thousands of people in Soweto who go without medical treatment for the simple reason that the facilities either do not exist or that they are not in a position to avail themselves of the facilities which do exist. Soweto is at the hub of an area of South Africa where there is millions of Black and White people. It is a part of the most populous complex in South Africa. In short, there is no area in South Africa which has a better potential and is better suited for the creation of a university with a medical faculty in order to bridge the gap between the lack of Black professional people and the filling of that particular lack. I think that if this hon. the Minister and the other hon. Ministers who are involved would give attention to the creation of such a facility, they would find that that could be the best possible contribution to wiping out the tremendous shortage which exists, to bridging the gap in education between Black people and White people, and in particular providing facilities which would allow existing Black talent which is not receiving the opportunity to become trained, to avail themselves of training opportunities thereby producing the professional people, particularly the doctors, which South Africa requires.

That is the first aspect of the crisis in medicine and health services which exists in South Africa today. There are ways and means in which the Government could alleviate that crisis if it would just show the courage and insight to do so.

The other aspect has reference to the crisis the hon. the Minister is also aware of and which exists in terms of certain supplementary health services. I am referring to occupational services, physiotherapeutic services and the nursing services. The hon. the Minister should take note of the fact that this Government refused to listen to the warnings that were given in 1976 by a number of hon. members of this side of the House. We then had a crisis in Soweto which arose around education. The present hon. the Minister of Coloured Affairs once again refused to listen to advice he received from this side of the House, and we now have a crisis in Coloured education in South Africa. We also have a crisis in White education in South Africa. At the moment there are certainly indications that there is a gathering crisis concerning health services, particularly supplementary health services, of South Africa. People in this field are just not getting a square deal from the Government and are just not being remunerated financially according to their qualifications, their ability and the services they render.

Let us look at a few of these facts. When one thinks about occupational therapists, physiotherapists and nurses, one is thinking about people who must undergo professional training of a very high standard, who must pass examinations of a high professional standard, who have to do a job of work of a high professional standard, who must work under very difficult circumstances, who must work very difficult hours as a result of which their personal and social lives are disrupted and who have to make sacrifices in order to carry out their work. However, there seems to be a belief that if persons are sufficiently noble in spirit to commit their lives to humanitarian services, services which require great sacrifices and which do not bring the material rewards other professions bring, the Government must then add to their hardship by underpaying them and by subjecting them to very difficult working conditions. I do not think that that is satisfactory under any circumstances. I think the hon. the Minister must do something very specific about it.

Let us look at some of the situations in which they find themselves. An occupational therapist who has completed a three-year diploma course—and the hon. the Minister knows about the high standards with which they have to comply—starts with a salary of only R4 110 per annum, not much more than the salary with which a junior typist or shorthand typist starts. A person with a B.Sc. or another bachelor degree in occupational therapy, a four year’s degree course, starts with only R4 740 per annum. I am not even going to give the figures that apply to more senior grades, except to say that these figures are just as deplorable as the figures I have just mentioned. How can a Government under any circumstances justify salary scales of that nature being paid to people who do the type of work they do and who have to have the qualifications they have?

Let us look at the situation particularly in respect of Blacks. The starting salary of Blacks with the same qualifications and who have to write the same exams and do the same work, is half of that of Whites, viz. R2 040 per annum. An occupational therapist does not qualify, under section 16 of the Income Tax Act, for deductions in respect of attending congresses, post-graduate studies and study travels and so forth. I think the hon. the Minister must give urgent attention to this.

As far as physiotherapists are concerned, the position is precisely the same in terms of the type of work they do and their qualifications. They are in exactly the same position as occupational therapists.

What is the consequence of this? According to a survey done in 1979, only 392 of the 536 posts in the hospitals in the four provinces were filled at that time. This means that there were 144 vacancies at that time. In other words, 36% of the posts in this extremely important supplementary health service were vacant. The basic fact is that the starting salaries of diplomaed and degreed physiotherapists are too low, both for the entry grade and the starting senior salaries. Physiotherapists with special levels of competency due to post-graduate specialist training are not rewarded financially at any level. In what other profession does a situation arise in which people achieve further competence by means of further study and by the achievement of further qualifications, yet that is not being recognized and they are not given better salaries?

Let us now look at the discrimination which exists between Black and White. A qualified Black physiotherapist with a diploma earns the same as a second-year White student physiotherapist. Can you believe it! A Black senior physiotherapist, who starts with R3 720 per year, must work three years as a senior to reach the basic White starting salary. Can you believe it! A Black physiotherapist with a degree starts at four notches lower than a White diplomaed physiotherapist. Can one justify such a situation?

Let us look at the nurses’ situation, which is even worse. I would like to refer very briefly to some points from a 19-point memorandum which was submitted by the Cape nurses. They had requested a survey and the following were the results—

They then mention the consequences, for example that the services suffer when people are overworked and underpaid, that they do not get satisfactory overtime pay, that their increases are totally unacceptable and inadequate and that staff shortages are caused. I would like the hon. the Minister to listen to the following statistics which apply to the Transvaal. In the Transvaal, in terms of new nurses registered in 1977, 2 277 White student and pupil nurses were accepted for training. In 1978 it decreased to 2 202 and in 1979 to 2 029. There was a decrease in the number of students and nurses registering in those years. As far as Blacks were concerned, in 1977 1 312 registered; in 1978, 1 262 and in 1979, 1 118. Their numbers also decreased. Where there should have been an increase in terms of the increased demand there was in fact a constant decrease in those years. The number who resigned also increased and this further aggravated the situation. In 1977 1 056 White registered and enrolled nurses resigned; in 1978 it was 1 093 and in 1979, 1 264. There was therefore a constant increase in the number who resigned, and the same applied to Black nurses.

Is it necessary to go further to convince the hon. the Minister that a very serious situation has arisen with regard to the nursing profession in South Africa? It is the same profession which, when we put the Nursing Bill through this Parliament a year or two ago, we praised because they of their own volition decided against the right to strike. But what is the situation today? As a result of being underpaid with the result that their status has not improved and as a result of their conditions of employment are so unsatisfactory there is discontent and disillusionment resulting in an ever-increasing number of resignations, fewer people applying or entering the nursing profession, the best talent withholding themselves from the profession and a loss of faith by the nursing profession in the Nursing Association and its leadership; and so they are talking in terms of striking and withdrawing …

You know they cannot strike.

What I said is a fact. If the hon. the Minister denies it, he is part and parcel of this very unfortunate situation that has arisen.

Are they dissatisfied with the Nursing Association?

I have been told by a number of nurses whom I have spoken to that they are totally dissatisfied with the Nursing Association and its leadership. They are dissatisfied that Prof. Charlotte Searle, whom I know well, said on TV that she was satisfied with the increases. The nursing profession as such is not satisfied with the increases and they are unhappy that their leadership should say that they are satisfied. Some people in the nursing profession are thinking in terms of the creation of another association which will more effectively represent their particular interests. I have read just a few points from the 19-point document which has been presented in the Cape Province by nurses from the Western Cape area and I ask the hon. the Minister to study that document and to respond to it.

Time is getting very short and I would still like to deal with another very serious matter, viz. the Biko doctors who have been in the news recently. I would like to read briefly from The Cape Times editorial of Wednesday 21 May 1980. It summarizes the circumstances surrounding the Biko situation. It reads—

I wish I had the time to deal with the evidence which was led at the judicial inquest which took place into the death of Steve Biko, because if this evidence is true—and there was no finding at the inquest indicating that the evidence was in fact not true—it simply means that a miscarriage of justice took place, which redounds to the eternal disgrace of our country and of our system. I should like, however, to go just a little bit further.

Certain members of the medical profession have been brought into disrepute as a result of the …

Really, why are you indulging in gossip on the grounds of a mere hypothesis?

I am not speaking to the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs at the moment; I am speaking to the hon. the Minister of Health. [Interjections.]

†Certain members of the medical profession were apparently involved.

Who said that?

The specific committee that was appointed found that there was no evidence of improper or disgraceful conduct on the part of the doctors involved.

Do you believe that?

I submit that the finding of that committee, and the evidence which is available, are totally contradictory, and no reasonable person can reconcile the evidence with that particular finding. Either the doctors involved acted improperly, acted against the ethics of their profession, or they are in fact innocent.

You fell on your head when you were small.

If they are innocent, I believe that—and that is obvious—they should be properly found innocent. If, however, they are not innocent, it is in the interests of the medical profession and in the interests of South Africa that this matter be thoroughly investigated and that a finding be made which can stand up to the fight of day.

What is the situation? The Medical and Dental Council Act allows the Minister, in terms of section 8(2), to convene a special meeting of the Medical and Dental Council to consider a matter such as this. I believe that public confidence should be restored, because here public confidence in the medical profession in South Africa has been shaken. We have had a situation which reflects on the integrity of our medical profession. We have had publicity abroad, which has been tremendously harmful to South Africa and to our medical profession. We have had a very definite indication of a lack of faith and trust, not only in our medical profession, but in all other circumstances surrounding that profession. I believe that under those circumstances it is the responsibility of the hon. the Minister not to waste more time. Do hon. members realize how long this took? It took two years before the Medical and Dental Council even acted. If those doctors were actually guilty we would have them practising their profession in circumstances in which they were in fact guilty of improper conduct. This took two years. I believe we cannot wait any longer.

I believe it is the hon. the Minister’s responsibility here and now to convene a special meeting of the Medical and Dental Council to reconsider this whole matter. Such a meeting should not be held in camera. It should be held in public so that the public can hear and see the evidence in order to establish precisely what happened there and so that we can know what the position is, because at this moment, whether the hon. the Minister and the Government like it or not, the vast majority of the South African population—not to speak of the people beyond our boundaries—are under the impression that we have had here a grave miscarriage of justice and that our medical profession has been seen to have acted in a way which constitutes a conspiracy of silence and in which they have subjected their professional obligations to the interests of the Security Police. Can we afford that, and can the hon. the Minister afford this situation to continue?

Mr. Chairman, if the hon. member for Bryanston could succeed just once in keeping petty politics and a racial connotation out of a health debate, I would believe that he really had the interests of this country and its people at heart. The hon. member lost no time letting fly with one example after another in an effort to indicate what a tremendous crisis existed with regard to health care in South Africa. He listed a whole series of examples of the shortage of non-White doctors, and in the end he even dragged the Biko case into his argument. However, what is the true situation? South Africa has one of the best health services in the whole world, but that hon. member does not want to see that. That hon. member prefers to denigrate South Africa’s health services and to say how poor this country’s health services are. He prefers to discuss the crises that arise. There is a question I should like to put to him. In what other African state are a sufficient number of medical practitioners trained, or more medical practitioners than in South Africa?

Not one, but that has nothing to do with the matter.

These are the circumstances of the situation. They do indeed have a great deal to do with the matter, but what they have nothing to do with is the political situation in South Africa, which that hon. member wants to advance as the reason for the present state of affairs. However, I want to leave that hon. member at that.

This is the first occasion on which this hon. Minister has dealt with this particular Vote. I therefore want to wish him everything of the best for it, particularly against the background of the new dispensation which combines health, welfare and pensions in one department. On this occasion I should also like to offer him the full support and co-operation of hon. members on this side of the House and assure him of our assistance and support at all times in this great task resting on his shoulders.

When one pages through the annual report, it is with real pride that one takes cognizance of the state of health care in South Africa. In this respect I want to differ to a large extent from the hon. member for Bryanston. From the sound and comprehensive exposition of the activities connected with the successful Health Year last year to the informative statistics at the end of the report, everything testifies to its being an excellent report. In my opinion, the Director-General deserves to be specially complimented on this exceptional and thorough report. On behalf of this side of the House I should also like to congratulate Dr. De Beer on the important promotion which has come his way. I trust that his exceptional talents will be available to the Department of Health, Welfare and Pensions for a long time to come.

It strikes one that the report also reflects greater rationalization in the field of health and that it develops the modernization idea embodied in the Health legislation of 1977. In this regard the emphasis has to a large extent been shifted from curative services to a prevention strategy, which not only gives rise to a saving in costs, but will also be to the real benefit of the population of this country as a whole. If there is one thing we are realizing more and more, it is that the human being is not only physically and mentally complex, but also that a correct medical evaluation of a human being demands a full perspective or global understanding of the human being. In modern times the trend of specialization and super-specialization has arisen to create a category of doctors who are geared only to one compartment of medicine. These areas of specialization are, of course, doing fantastic work in their specific spheres. One cannot deny this. Fantastic achievements have already been accomplished in the various medical disciplines, but with all due respect, in the nature of the matter, this category of doctors cannot form the front line in medicine, the line which is represented by the general practitioners, the house doctors.

This trend, together with many other factors, for example the urbanization of our overall population, means that we are today saddled with a distorted distribution of medical practitioners. We are saddled with a doctor-patient ratio of 1:1 900 for the total population in South Africa. This is quite a favourable figure if we measure it by African standards. In a city such as Durban, however, there is one medical practitioner for every 600 members of the total population. This ratio shrinks to 1:190 for the White population as such. In the peri-urban and rural areas this figure varies from 1:20 000 to 1:100 000 of the population. This means in effect that 5½% of our doctors have to serve 50% of the population. One also finds that in urban areas the ratio of general practitioners to specialists is as low as 2:1. It is therefore clear that we are certainly saddled with a relative shortage of general practitioners. Prof. Jannie Louw, Dean of the Faculty of Surgery of the University of Cape Town, who has just retired, put it, inter alia, as follows—

In my opinion he has put his finger on a real problem which I hope will receive the serious attention of our university authorities. In his opening speech at the Congress of General Practitioners, the hon. the Minister himself had the following to say about the matter—

This illustrates further aspects of the problem of the training of medical practitioners, aspects which will most definitely have to be examined.

The Government’s decision that personal health services are to be provided by provincial authorities in terms of the law, is a very significant decision. It will mean better coordination and efficiency. I note in the report that in only two places, i.e. Seymour and Middelburg, Transvaal, district surgeon services have been moved to the province’s hospital services. I should like to know from the hon. the Minister whether these cases should be regarded as experiments, whether this has worked well there and when he expects the same to happen in the rest of the country. According to the report, ambulance services are also expected to fall under the provincial authorities as from 1 April. I should also like to know whether this development has already taken place. In my opinion it is a very important development in the effective functioning of our ambulance services.

Chapter 4 of the report is devoted to mental health. It is mentioned in that chapter that the Tara Hospital, with 141 beds, was taken over by the Transvaal Provincial Administration as from 1 July 1979. In this regard I wish to ask the hon. the Minister whether all the psychiatric institutions will in time fall under the provincial administrations as an integral part of the personal health services. As I see it, this would be a meaningful and positive development. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I merely rise to give the hon. member the opportunity to complete his speech.

I thank the hon. member. As I said, this ought to be a positive development because mental aberrations, just like physical diseases, are ordinary sicknesses which ought not to involve any stigma, although this is so often the case. The very fact that a psychiatric institution is a special institution, which even falls under other Government bodies, contributes a great deal towards promoting this particular stigma effect. One asks oneself whether psychiatric services should not be an integral part of an ordinary general hospital, particularly if one notes the great variety of conditions lying among the purely physical illnesses and the psychosomatic conditions where the psyche plays an important role in specific clinical conditions, for example stomach ulcers and hypertension. Then on the other hand there is also the pure neurosis where no real physical aberration is present. Furthermore we have the real psychoses and a variety of depressive conditions and psychopathic conditions which on the other hand clearly fall within the domain of psychiatry.

The point I want to make is that there is a large grey area where there is a great deal of overlapping or a mixture of both psychiatric and physical factors and that there ought to be a far greater measure of team work and co-ordination in these spheres.

It is extremely important for me to be able to make a correct diagnosis, for the diagnosis must be correct in order to give the correct treatment. With the steadily increasing burden of tension in modern life, one can expect an increase in the psychosomatic illnesses and that it will consequently be of importance that health care in South Africa should develop into a co-ordinated, comprehensive service provided in the spirit of the Health Act, 1977.

I should like to refer to another aspect of the report, which has been very much in the limelight recently, owing to certain events that have occurred and public debate in this connection, viz. the statistical data furnished in annexure 11 of the report in respect of abortions and sterilizations under the Abortion and Sterilization Act, 1975. On page 70 of the report information is furnished in connection with the number of legal abortions carried out in terms of the provisions of the various sections of the Act. I am not going to read them out one by one, but 123 abortions were carried out over a period of 11 months in terms of the provisions of section 3(1)(a) of the Act. One hundred and ninety-six legal abortions were carried out in terms of the provisions of section 3(1)(b) due to the fact that the continued pregnancy constituted a serious threat to the mental health of the woman concerned. Eighty-nine legal abortions were carried out in terms of the provisions of section 3(1)(c) of the Act. In terms of the provisions of section 3(1)(d)(aa), 14 legal abortions were carried out, and in terms of the provisions of section 3(1)(d)(bb) one legal abortion was carried out. A total of 423 legal abortions were therefore carried out under the provisions of the Act over a period of 11 months.

If we examine the whole period of five years which has elapsed since the Act came into effect, we find that altogether 2 698 legal abortions were carried out of which 1 234, or 49,4%, were carried out in terms of the provisions of section 3(1)(b), i.e. where the pregnancy constituted a serious threat to the mental health of the woman concerned.

Perhaps this is a good time, now that the Act has been in operation for five years, to examine how effectively it has worked. It is important to me whether its implementation is in fine with the ethical-moral and religious views of the majority of South Africa’s population. Bearing in mind the debate in connection with the 1975 legislation—this legislation was introduced after a thorough study by the Van der Merwe Commission—I want to refer to certain aspects which came to the fore in the course of the debate. I want to point out what the then Minister of Health said in the debate. He said (Hansard 1975, col. 477)—

He went on to explain the special administrative measures.

The hon. member for Houghton also participated in the debate and said of the commission’s report that it had bent over backwards (Hansard 1975, col. 495)—

This is still the standpoint of the hon. member for Houghton. The evidence of the D.R. Church, which was pointed out by the hon. member for Brentwood at that time, Dr. Vosloo, reads as follows—

It is therefore clear that the vast majority of hon. members of this House were of the opinion that there ought to be stringent control of this type of surgery.

Let us compare this situation to that in Britain where abortions are far more freely allowed. At this point I must correct a misconception. They, too, have legal requirements, as is the case here, which even correspond broadly with our legislation. I do not have time now to point out all of them; I am only going to refer to their number two, which is almost exactly the same as our provision, i.e. when there is a danger of the physical or mental health of the mother being adversely affected. This is just the same as our provision, but because there has been a considerable relaxation in administrative control, it is now virtually a question of abortion on demand. There is another interesting one which we do not have, viz. when there is a risk of the mother’s other children being adversely affected, then this too is grounds for a legal abortion. Now we find that the so-called abortion on demand is being carried out under the second statutory requirement, viz. when there is a danger in respect of the physical or mental health of the mother. The difference between us and Britain therefore lies solely in the stricter administrative control of these measures.

If we analyse the figures for England and Wales for 1978, we find that just over 83% of the total number of abortions, which amounted to more than 112 000 for that year, were carried out on the basis of this statutory provision. In Scotland the figure was even higher, viz. 95%. A report of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists says inter alia the following—

We can therefore indicate that where abortion on demand is rampant, there is no real reduction in back-street abortions, as there is a great deal of ignorance among people, because of fear of the facts becoming known and since this is an intimate personal matter and the invasion of the individual’s privacy, however good the arrangements may be, will always drive a considerable percentage of the people to the so-called back-street abortions.

According to the figures at our disposal, we could say that there is still adequate control in South Africa and that this situation is not occurring. However, I foresee that the hon. the Minister is going to be requested to remove some of the stricter control measures to facilitate the abortion procedure. However, I want to make an appeal to him this afternoon, in the light of experience and in view of what is happening in other countries, and also in the light of the Christian, moral conviction of the vast majority of South Africa’s population, not to comply with them. He must not allow himself to be swept along by the permissiveness and decadence of so many of the Western countries which have been led astray by a spirit of humanism which gnaws like a canker at the nation’s morale and which can only lead to self-destruction and ruin. This must not be allowed to happen here.

Mr. Chairman, we in these benches find ourselves to a very large extent in agreement with the hon. member for Pietersburg who, in his usual capable manner, has made a strong plea that we do not fall for the temptation of abortion on demand in this country. I think it is important that we say that we also believe that abortion on demand is just an excuse for a lack of self-discipline as it is the result of the lack of self-discipline that there is such a demand from certain vocal quarters, in this country, notably the PFP, that abortion should be available on demand. [Interjections.] I believe that all possible measures of birth control should be made available to those who want them. At the same time I also believe, as does the hon. member for Pietersburg, that abortion on demand would be a very undesirable thing in this or any other country.

We too want to congratulate the hon. the Minister as this is the first debate on this Vote that he is taking in this House. I want to tell him that if we can co-operate with him in matters that will result in better health services for this country, he knows he will be able to rely on our co-operation in all such matters. I also want to tell him that if there are matters of which we feel we must be critical, we shall not hesitate to raise those matters in a critical way. Whenever we are able, however, to assist him in matters that will really be to the benefit of health services in this country, he can rely on our support.

I want to commend the departmental officials for producing a most intelligent, very thorough and comprehensive report, in which a lot of figures are given which are of great value to people who follow some of the lesser known details of our health services. However, in studying that report, I came across one alarming section, namely the section in connection with the shortages of health personnel. The point is made that the White services alone we have 1 149 vacancies. This means that 23% of the establishment has to be filled. The Director-General of the department has gone on record in the Press as saying that this shortage could be overcome to a certain extent by the use of more Black personnel. I should therefore like to hear from the hon. the Minister what efforts are being made to encourage Blacks to fill some of these vacancies in the Department of Health. I want to enlarge a little further on this by saying that the specific areas that are requiring urgent attention are those of nurses, where there is a shortage of approximately 57%; of medical specialists where there is a shortage of approximately 42%; nursing sisters and/or male nurses, where the shortage is approximately 30%; district surgeons, where the shortage is 28% and health inspectors, where the shortage is 22%. There may be other sectors where the percentage is even higher, but I believe that these five are perhaps some of the prime sectors that we should be looking at to ensure that the strength is raised to the authorized establishment. We should do that, because if we look at what is happening in Africa and in Southern Africa we see an almost total breakdown of health services in countries to the north of us.

The one example which I should like to mention briefly is of course Maputo, where there is an almost total breakdown of health services. We are finding that diseases that were previously well controlled are now occurring in areas of the Republic which are adjacent to Mozambique. This is just one example that I could name. One could also look at the fact that plague has not yet been completely eradicated in Ovambo, and it stands to reason that we have many young men under arms in that part of the world, and I should hate to see that, because of a lack of staff in this most important Government department, we were to lay ourselves open to the risk of a crisis in any area of our health services.

I should like to deal very briefly with the question of the salaries of nurses, because I believe that despite recent increases the salaries do not come anywhere near to being adequate for the kind of responsibility nurses carry and the kind of work they do. They have to pass stringent examinations. They must at all times be alert, tidy and cheerful people, and on top of that they are expected to work long hours. I think that the very least that we should see they are due for under those circumstances is that they can command the kind of salary that is drawn by young ladies in commerce and industry when they are doing an equivalent job. After all, we are going into an economic boom. However, what actually is more important: The growth of a nation economically or the health of that nation? As I have said before in this House, the nurses are our first line of defence with regard to health. I hope therefore that the hon. the Minister will give regular attention to the upgrading of nurses’ salaries and not wait until we get to the stage where there is a crisis situation, such as the situation we faced earlier this year. I believe it would be wrong of us to abuse the dedication of nurses. They are, after all, doing this job for society. Hard work, difficult hours and the dedication that they show do not pay their bills and their rent, but a decent living wage will. We should aim at paying a qualified nurse a basic salary of R500 per month, that is R25 per working day or roughly R3 per hour. I think that is the very least we should be aiming for in the short term for the nurses who do such a wonderful job in this country.

I now want to quote a statement by Prof. Grant White, who has over the years served his profession with distinction. In his book Between Life and Death he says—

I think that puts it in perspective and therefore I shall leave the matter there.

I should now like to deal with the negative aspect of the breakdown in ambulance services in certain areas of the Republic. I particularly want to refer to what is happening in Natal, in Durban especially. I think Durban is one of the cities which is suffering the worst as a result of outdated, inadequate and totally unacceptable ambulance services. If one looks at page 12 of the annual report of the department, one reads the following—

If this is the case, I charge that the subsidy being paid to the Durban Corporation is pitifully and totally inadequate for the type of service they should be rendering. There are many Durban doctors who refuse to use the ambulance service, preferring to use a private service that is presently able to offer a very much more effective ambulance service at a fraction more of the cost. In the meantime the hon. the Minister and his department have been unable to finalize the arrangements whereby the provincial administration will take over the handling of the ambulance services in Natal. That, after all, is the objective of the Health Act. Because of this, the blame is very unfairly being put on the shoulders of the Natal Provincial Administration and not on the shoulders of the hon. the Minister and his department. I want to make it clear that under no circumstances am I blaming the officials. They are doing their best under trying circumstances and with inadequate equipment. Nevertheless I call on the hon. the Minister to speed up a decision on this matter, to ensure adequate funds for better equipment and, generally, to accord the problem a much higher priority in future. Talking of the future, I want to say that I should like to see us looking ahead to the time when South Africa has an ambulance service consisting of a helicopter and a para-medical team on standby, particularly to cover accidents in remote areas of the country where ambulances would have to travel enormously long distances, as a result of which lives could be lost because under those circumstances many patients can die in the time it takes for them to be brought to hospital. I should like to recommend to the hon. the Minister that we start looking at this as a possibility for the future.

In the very brief time left to me, I should like to raise two thoughts on the question of smoking. I know there have been enormous developments in this country in regard to the attitude towards smoking and to its very deleterious effects on health. I should like to suggest two things to the hon. the Minister. Firstly, I should like to suggest that we put a levy of 1 cent on every packet of 20 cigarettes sold to build up a fund for research into diseases specifically associated with excessive smoking, particularly lung cancer. If we put a levy of 1 cent on every packet of 20, we would annually raise a fund of R3 million, which I believe will go a long way to helping those who are doing research in this important field. Secondly, I think the time has come for us to consider … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to react to the speech made by the hon. member for Berea, for I want to discuss today the deadly murderer who has crept in among us unnoticed, a murderer who irrespective of who it is has started to mow down the cream of our population, viz. ischaemic heart diseases, the type of disease which causes heart attacks, and which is more prevalent in South Africa than in any other country in the world.

I also want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the Medical Research Council, that fine organization in my constituency, which in the tenth year of its existence, under the guidance of Prof. Andries Brink has launched one of the most important projects in the Health Year, viz. the National Heart Effort. I wish to make an urgent plea for support for this National Heart Effort in an effort to control this rampant epidemic with the least possible delay.

Public involvement, and in particular public contributions, are so necessary to collect the target amount, viz. R2 million, which is necessary to check the terrible impact of heart diseases over the next decade by means of the necessary research, information and rehabilitation projects.

The prevalence of coronary heart diseases among South African men between the ages of 24 and 25 years is 2½ times higher than in the USA. Our young country simply cannot afford the toll it is taking. I ask myself whether we in this country realize what that toll is? Every year 4 000 of our White men die of ischaemic heart diseases, and that mortality figure is even higher among Asians. Do we realize that heart diseases take the lives of more South Africans every year than cancer and traffic accidents combined? Do we realize that 35% of all male deaths between the ages of 20 and 65 are the result of ischaemic heart diseases? Women are behind by only a short head. Do we realize that heart diseases cost our national economy R180 million per annum? On the basis of the daily effect of heart diseases, it is calculated that 27 people in our country are affected by it every day, mostly young people who are on the crest of their economically active phase. Eleven of those 27 die every day, while 16 survive, but suffer the after effects. This means an estimated cost to our economy of virtually R½ million per day. How does one measure the effect of the concomitant strain, disruption and sorrow?

Extrapolated over the next very important decade for South Africa, we shall have the following situation in 1990 if we do not give very urgent attention to this immediately and if rapid action is not taken: 100 000 South Africans of all races will be affected, of whom 40 000 will die. This equals the total population, more or less, of a town such as Queenstown or Pietersburg. 60 000 of those heart sufferers will survive, but suffer the after effects. This will mean an expenditure of R1 800 million to our country: i.e. enough to build 90 000 houses of R20 000 each. Is it, then, asking too much, I wonder, when I make an urgent appeal today that the Government should also make a direct contribution to this effort and to the research in connection with it? The hon. the Minister demonstrated his total involvement in this respect in the days when he was still Administrator of the Cape by way of the support he pledged of this effort through the province. That is why I want to ask today whether the hon. the Minister’s colleagues do not want to help too. After all, this problem affects everyone in this House as well. Unnoticed, and perhaps without fuss—in contrast to the polio epidemic of the ’fifties—heart diseases have begun to strike, so that we are in fact facing a new epidemic today. It was for that very reason that the National Heart Effort was launched last year. Its organizers are convinced that if the necessary means can be rapidly obtained that epidemic can be checked successfully. We do have the infrastructure of exceptionally knowledgeable people in South Africa. We have the research facilities to launch a national action plan, which has already been worked out. According to this the mortality rate as a result of heart diseases could decrease dramatically within the next ten years.

Finland has succeeded in doing this. America, too, has succeeded in this respect. That is why I believe that we in South Africa could do this with even greater success.

However, an important factor which is preventing the heart effort from getting into its stride, is and remains the lack of funds. Reasonably long-term commitments have to be entered into in the sphere of heart research, of rehabilitation projects and of public guidance, so that the public, too, can assist in this task. Here in particular it is important to note that 50% of all heart victims who die before they reach the hospital. Effective action by members of the public can cause that figure to decrease considerably.

Now a target amount of R2 million has been estimated, of which almost R250 000 has already been collected or pledged within one year. However, before at least R1 million has been obtained for this effort, the heart effort simply cannot go ahead properly.

Possibly the major health crises in our nation’s past, for example the Great Flu of 1918 and the polio epidemic of the ’fifties, were discussed in this House in sombre circumstances. Now, however, seen in the long term, we may be faced by a far more serious epidemic. We must combat it. Consequently, in all seriousness I want to make an urgent appeal, not only for nation-wide support, particularly financial support, for this heart effort, but also for a positive answer to the question whether we ought to contribute to this and what our contribution should be. Perhaps we should ask how much and how soon we can contribute and how many persons and bodies we can encourage to contribute in the process.

It is of almost strategic importance to South Africa to obtain the financial means for the heart effort. It is just as important for every South African personally to give moral support and to project the message of hope which the heart effort represents, in an effort to achieve national involvement. In fact this is why we had Health Year last year.

Finally—and I believe that I am speaking on behalf of every hon. member here—I want to convey my best wishes to Prof. Andries Brink and the Medical Research Council for this project. The success of this effort affects me and every hon. member of this House intimately and personally.

The future hon. member for Parktown will agree with that too.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to take this opportunity of replying at once to the hon. member for Tygervallei, while his speech is still fresh in my mind. Everyone who, like most of us, I suppose, does more than one man’s work every day, would do well to listen to the figures he furnished. They are frightening figures, which indicate that almost 87 000 of our White men are the victims of this “horrible murderer”, as the hon. member called it. However, this is not something which is limited only to the Whites. Our researchers are collecting data which indicates that the Asiatics are also beginning to constitute a large percentage of this group of people. The same applies to our Coloured and Black populations. It is the result of their changed ways of life, perhaps following the example of us Westerners. Among the harmful things they are getting from us are tension, smoking, too little or too much exercise and curious dietary habits. It is interesting to note that on his usual diet, consisting largely of maize, the Black man virtually never suffers coronary thrombosis. As soon as he changes over to the Western diet, however, to the things we are always eating, he too increasingly falls victim to it. This may be a good reason for us to switch over to the Black man’s diet to see whether we shall not do better on that. The hon. member quoted frightening figures, and not only in respect of loss of life. He also made it quite clear that it applied to all population groups and to all people, whether male or female. That may interest the hon. member for Houghton. It is true that fewer women are affected by it, because apparently they are not subject to as much tension as the men.

Oh, come off it!

I want to thank the hon. member for Tygervallei very sincerely for the tribute he paid to the MRC. For many reasons, the MRC is still in its infancy, one might say. Perhaps we have built up something special there over the years. However, money is one of the inhibiting factors. The other day I asked one of their top men why they did not apply for a certain amount of money. I was surprised when he said that they were actually afraid to ask, because they were afraid they might loose the money they were getting at the moment, or that they might get less. Perhaps this is a problem we should examine properly. I think we shall have to give special attention to this matter in the future.

Before replying to a request that the State should make a contribution, I should first like to pay tribute to the National Heart Effort for way in which their workers got the private sector and the community as a whole to co-operate at a time when it is important that there should be co-operation. Heart disease is not a disease which should involve only the Government. It is true that the disease may affect the State in the sense that its workers are affected, but the private sector also loses hundreds of millions of rands every year because of this. Therefore the community also has to be involved. The disease may strike at any moment. It is not only certain persons who are affected by it. I cannot commit the Government, but I undertake to discuss the matter with the hon. the Minister of Finance. If he is prepared to make a contribution, I shall submit the matter to the Cabinet. That is all I can promise today. It is not an unqualified promise. It is just something I shall try to do. I am sure that when I have put the case to the Ministers concerned, they will do their best. I am convinced that because of the losses that are being suffered, the Government will certainly consider making a contribution, and not only in the field of research. I paid a visit to Israel last year and had talks with their Minister of Health and their equivalent of our chairman of the MRC. They already have a programme, an exchange programme, because they are anxious to co-operate with us to an even larger extent, specifically in connection with research into heart disease. Over a period of three years, they have managed to reduce the incidence of this disease in several age groups. There is so much that can be done. One does not have to apply large-scale medical treatment every time in order to overcome this disease. The things that have to be done are basic things. The hon. member spoke about giving up the smoking habit. There are also factors such as the wrong diet, a diet containing too much fat meat, etc. Then there is the fact that we do not have our blood pressure checked regularly. I do not want to give the hon. members a medical lecture, but I just want to say that I am sure there are many things that ordinary people can do. I therefore want to say that I greatly appreciate what the National Heart Effort is doing. I have had talks with them.

†After discussing the matter with them, and also at other levels and with my department, it is my pleasure to announce today that 20 to 25 October 1980 has been designated “Heart Week” in South Africa and that all sections of the population are invited to participate in this major campaign to highlight the disease and to try to combat it. The department is aware of the need for a major campaign to educate the public about heart disease, and “Heart Week” will focus attention on this problem. The National Heart Effort, the organizers of “Heart Week”—and I want to stress that they are organizing it—has my department’s blessing and full backing with this important project, and I hope we will have the backing of all sections of the population, the Government sector, schools, businesses, community organizations and the media for what is a vitally important project for the future and the health care of South Africans of all races. We cannot afford to lose anybody in this country. The man who gets coronary thrombosis is really a loss not only to the State, but also to his family, to all the people around him and especially the business he works in. In the year that lies ahead I certainly want to try to promote our research project with Israel. In this morning’s paper, I think, there was a short article about two South African doctors who have made a further breakthrough in the diagnosis of histemic heart disease by the use of isotopes. It is a pity that they have left South Africa, but they did so because they felt they wanted to work in a country where they should like to work and where they could treat their own people.

*I shall leave it at that. My reply to the hon. member for Tygervallei, therefore, is that we shall do our best. I want to congratulate him on an excellent speech. It actually gave me the opportunity of opening the debate on a level which I hope hon. members will maintain.

I should like to thank the other hon. members who have already participated for their contributions, whatever their contents. Allow me to refer first to the hon. member for Bryanston.

†This hon. member started off by saying that the practise of medicine is experiencing critical circumstances. He then came with a long dissertation about the training of Black doctors. I pointed out that that had nothing to do with me or my department. The hon. member must refer that matter to the hon. the Minister of Education and Training, who is the Minister who deals with the education and training of Blacks and to the hon. the Minister of National Education, who has to do with determining the curricula for doctors. I have nothing to do with that. In fact, one cannot find any reference to it in this Vote. I am not going to spend time on this, but I think the hon. member for Pietersburg has shown very clearly what the position is.

The statistics the hon. member gave point to an historic fact. There are more White doctors in South Africa, but the hon. member must not leave the impression with the Press that, because there are not enough Black doctors in South Africa, the health service here is poor. That seems to be the thing that usually finds its way into the Press. One can go through the entire report of the Department of Health and nowhere will one find reference to Black, White, Brown or any other colour. This department does not deal with colour. It is there for the health of all the people. The department does its best to see that the best possible service is given to whoever needs it. The hon. member for Pietersburg dealt well with the statistics, but they are just statistics and not actually worth much. If we get more Black doctors, we shall be very glad of it. However, the idea of selecting certain bright Black youngsters and training them does not concern my department, but another department.

The hon. member went on to say that, as regards the training of doctors, a nice big hospital is required in Soweto, a hospital with a medical school attached. The more I hear this argument, the more I think there are a number of people living in cloud cuckoo land as far as the medical services in South Africa are concerned. We do not have the money to spend on ever bigger hospitals and more medical schools.

Why was the Johannesburg Hospital built?

I did not interrupt the hon. member when he spoke.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister a question? He said we did not have the money to spend on building big new hospitals. If that is so, why was the new Johannesburg Hospital built, because it is exactly the type of hospital, as far as its size and features are concerned, that I had in mind?

Because it was absolutely essential. Did the hon. member want us to retain the old General Hospital? That hon. member’s party made a terrible fuss about that hospital. He and his party went from one side of Johannesburg to the other and incited people against the Transvaal provincial administration because a new hospital was not being built. They said the old hospital could not remain as it was. They attacked the Administrator of the Transvaal because he was not getting a move on to build a new hospital. Now the hon. member says the hospital was built unnecessarily. It is his party which was responsible for it. We must get the facts straight. We need a hospital like the new Johannesburg General Hospital when the old one has served its purpose, just as the Groote Schuur and H. F. Verwoerd Hospitals would have to be restructured in their entirety if necessary, but to go and build another big hospital only because there are a million people living in Soweto is to put the cart before the horse. We need community centres in Soweto. Community health has to be taken to the people. We must forget about building bigger and bigger hospitals. We must spend our money on 20 or 30 community centres in Soweto. If this were done, we would have health care in Soweto under control within a year without any problems. If we started planning today, it would take 15 years before a big hospital could start functioning in Soweto. I am speaking from experience, and I do not think the hon. member will be able to argue with me about my experience.

†The hon. member also spoke about an alleged gathering crisis in the supplementary services. He spoke freely and very disparagingly about the S.A. Nursing Council. He says that as far as the nurses go nobody takes notice of them and that they feel that they should kick Prof. Charlotte Searle out. I do not know whether the hon. member is campaigning on behalf of a certain group of nurses …

I said there was a lack of confidence in the leadership of the Association.

The hon. member mentioned Prof. Searle by name. He said she was a friend of his. I doubt whether she will be a friend of his after today.

I was reporting what the nurses say.

I deal with the Nursing Association and I must accept what they say. The nurses have their own elections and if they should elect another body, I will listen to it, but as long as they have an association and Prof. Searle as their president, I have to listen to her. I may add that we have an excellent liaison.

*The hon. member says that he is speaking on behalf of the nurses. I am speaking about what their association tells me. On 28 April, Prof. Searle wrote to me as follows—

Prof. Searle knows more about the mischief-makers than even I do. I can tell hon. members that it is not only nurses who are involved in this. A few medical practitioners are involved as well. We know who they are and I want to warn them very seriously to leave the nurses alone and to practise their own profession. The letter went on to say—

This is no secret, because I have said so myself—

After a short paragraph about something in England, the letter went on to say—

I do not want to involve the nurses in a debate in this House, but I just want to say that this is not the time to believe the stories about all the dissatisfied nurses and the vacant nursing posts. This is a matter which fluctuates. It is true that at a certain time of the year there are vacant posts, but in due course they are filled. It can be compared with the functioning of a machine. In any event, it is to a large extent the function of the provincial administrations, because they are the ones mainly concerned with this aspect. I replied as follows to Prof. Searle’s letter—

The system now requires us to make certain proposals in respect of our own department before the end of April, for actually the salaries of nurses fall under the Minister of the Interior. They fall under the new Commission for Administration. It is not a matter which I am concerned with, but because it affects nurses working for our department, we see to it that we co-operate closely with the association and convey their feelings to the relevant bodies. In this way, the Director-General has mentioned all these matters at the right places. The hon. the Prime Minister has also made it quite clear that there will be no interim increases in any direction; neither the professions, nor nursing, nor education or anywhere else. The next increase, if any, will be in the budget of the hon. the Minister of Finance next year. I mention this only to point out that there is positive co-operation between me and this association and especially Prof. Charlotte Searle. I want to pay tribute to her as surely one of the greatest nurses South Africa has produced.

Now I want to come to another matter, and that is the Biko case. It was not difficult to anticipate that the Opposition would refer to Biko, and for that reason I brought the file about the Biko case with me. The hon. member for Bryanston read what was said by the editor of The Cape Times, but he did not read far enough. The editor of The Cape Times is actually too big for his boots. I want to say so in this House as well, because I have already said this of him in the provincial council. He presumes to write about anything. He lets fly and he says—

What sense of urgency is there? What sense of urgency can there be? The hon. member on the other side complained a short while ago that the business had been dragging on for three years now. That is not correct. I shall deal with that too in a moment, because I think it is high time we put the Biko case on record in this House. The editor of The Cape Times went on to write—

Then he rewrote the whole propaganda piece during the Biko trial. He described it again in full. Wherever he could he repeated what had happened. But that is not what is at issue here. What is at issue here is the ethical problem there may be with regard to the three doctors. What is at issue is the statutory body which was appointed to go into ethical codes in cases of malpractice. The issue is not whether they were responsible for or had a share in the death of the late Steve Biko. What is at issue is the ethical aspect. It is in their power, and that is what they did. I shall read out the report in brief in a little while. What did the editor say at the end? He said—

This is the barb in his story—

That is a malicious remark. He could simply have picked up the telephone and asked the Director-General or myself. He could simply have done that, and then he would have been able to learn the facts. However, there were not “four or five nominees”. This little group which was responsible, and which is a standing committee of the council, consisted of only five members. This group of five is a standing committee which was elected as far back as last year. They have recently been re-elected. I have nothing to do with their appointment. Why does this malicious editor try to suggest here that I appointed the people and that it is the Government which is behind this kind of finding? But I have known this man since my days in the provincial council. One of his reporters, one McNally, wrote a malicious report about traffic policemen who had allegedly locked Black people into the boot of a car on the main road to Somerset West. I immediately had the matter investigated. I appointed a commissioner in terms of the rules of the provincial council, because I felt that one could not allow such a malicious allegation to be publicized. However, the harm had already been done. I do not want to read the whole thing, but the upshot was that McNally had fabricated the story. It says so in the report. The leading article was written under the heading “Boot-locking humour; jokes we can do without.” The whole article dealt with that. The commissioner said the following about him—

These were the findings of the commissioner. I mention them here today, because we have the same kind of malicious reporting in this case. The hon. member for Houghton can shake her head as much as she likes. It is her friend who is involved. This editor knew that he had only to pick up the telephone to learn the truth. However, he tried to cast suspicion on those five persons. Two of them are members appointed to the Medical Council by the previous Minister.

[Inaudible.]

The hon. member for Houghton must realize that those five persons were elected by many of her friends who sit on the Medical Council.

[Inaudible.]

I know why I am provoking the hon. member. What was one of the first reactions in the newspaper under the heading “Findings on the Biko doctors astonish Suzman?” It was reported as follows—

[Interjections.] I am reading from the report—

It was their ethical conduct that was at issue. I do not think the hon. member understands what that is. The report went on to say—

It would be interesting to know from whom they would get the news. The report went on to say—

That was the only part that was really worth reading, what she said at the end. This body consisted of five members. One of them was a practitioner, another was the chairman of the council, two had been appointed by me and the fifth was a representative of the Medical Association of South Africa. None of them was appointed by me. They form a standing committee. I now want to read their finding from a statement issued by the Medical Council. It is a statement on the resolution adopted by the council’s medical committee of preliminary inquiry in connection with the complaints against Drs. Hirsch, Laing and Tucker—

The accusation has been made that it took them two years to summons these people. A whole series of things happened. The court had to give its verdict. Its verdict was returned on 4 December 1979. I quote—

That is correct. It was a matter for the court and had nothing to do with me. I quote further—

Again, that was their own affair. In terms of the rules of their own council, they could be asked for an explanation, which they were not obliged to furnish if they did not want to or could not, in which case this committee to which I have referred would sit. I quote further—

That is 24 days after 31 March—

The hon. member for Houghton laughs. Is she insinuating that they did not do so?

Have you read the evidence?

Does the hon. member wish to say that they did not do so?

Have you read the evidence? I bet you have not.

I am not on the committee.

[Inaudible.]

I do not keep sticking my nose into things I should not stick my nose into.

It concerns everybody in South Africa.

I quote further—

Disgraceful.

It is being done in terms of the rules of the Medical Council. Every disciplinary case is investigated by the committee, and then, in order not to favour or prejudice people, the committee issues a statement about what happened there. However, it first has to be confirmed by the Medical Council at its first meeting, and this is being held in October. The hon. member for Bryanston asked me to force them in terms of section 8(2) to hold a meeting, but after all, there are other procedures as well in terms of which this matter can be raised. Only six of these 30 members have to ask for a special meeting to be convened. Surely the hon. member for Houghton has more than six friends on that council. Why does she not ask them to request that a meeting be convened? Why should I do so?

Perhaps I have.

Perhaps she has a few.

Perhaps she does not have friends at all.

I know who her friends there are. I have come to know that from speeches made in that council in which I was attacked.

We now have an opportunity to finalize this matter. As far as I am concerned, it is entirely a matter for the Medical Council.

†It is totally a matter for its preliminary committee. It is up to Council members to ask for a special meeting; otherwise the Council must proceed on its normal course.

There has also been a debate on the Act itself. The hon. member for Berea has said on a few occasions that we must not attack the integrity of this council. When I said that I had removed certain of the provisions and that I was not interested in looking at the ethnical or the educational side of it, the hon. member welcomed it. I only omitted the question of the tariff of fees. That is where my real interest lies as far as the Medical Council is concerned. It is a statutory body. There is no further need for me to force them to convene a special meeting on this particular case.

But when you disagree with them, you do not hesitate to do so.

I do not have to agree or disagree with them. They are a statutory body and they have made an in-depth study, although the hon. member for Houghton does not seem to agree.

I do not agree with it.

On the tariffs you disagreed.

That is interesting. Does the hon. member for Houghton not agree that this committee has made an in-depth study?

Not on the evidence.

That will be on record. I shall look at the hon. member’s Hansard. It must be on record that the hon. member has said that she does not agree with this committee.

[Inaudible.]

I had expected this matter to be raised, because there are certain media, and I begin with the Sunday Times, which, quite a while before this statement was issued by the Medical Council, began creating a climate which was intended to perpetuate the memory of the late Steve Biko. The heading is “Blackout on Biko” and the report says—

Here is one article after another. For example “Biko—British doctors critical.” A certain Dr. Jack Fielding, who is allegedly highly regarded, says—

This is where the lie originated. The lie which The Cape Times printed in its leading article came from this Dr. Fielding. What is he implying by spreading this kind of lie in the British Press? It is nothing but an attempt to discredit South Africa in connection with matters which can be sorted out by other councils. I am very surprised that the hon. member for Bryanston should have lent himself to this type of attack on the Medical Council and specifically on that committee. I have full confidence in the council, and they will deal with the matter as they want to. I am not prepared to interfere in this specific case. I do not think there is much more I can tell the hon. member for Bryanston.

It was a pleasure, after the speech of the hon. member for Bryanston, to listen to an expert in his field. I want to thank the hon. member for Pietersburg sincerely for his congratulations to me on my first Vote. Listening to what is emerging in the speeches, it seems to me that it may become an even more interesting Vote. I also want to thank him for his kind words about the Director-General and about the fine report. I think it is in fact a report which any Minister and his department may be very proud of. It is clear that they have learnt over the years to compile a report which is short and concise, but which nevertheless contains everything and which on top of that has been written in such a way that it is very easy to read. The hon. member dealt with the shortage of doctors much better than I myself could have done; therefore I do not want to dwell on that. I want to congratulate him in particular on having identified this super-specialization which we are being warned against, by Prof. Jannie Louw, for example.

If there is anything we can do, then it is to go back to basic community health services in Southern Africa. We cannot spend such large amounts any more. I gave the figure the other day, namely that we are spending approximately R1 milliard on medical care in South Africa today, of which two-thirds to three-quarters goes to the curative function of our health service. We are shutting the stable door while the steed is already galloping across the fields. Surely, with community involvement and community services and a different approach to our health services, we can make sure that we begin at the very beginning. People talk about a shortage of doctors, for example. I have been to Ga-Rankuwa myself, where they are training dental technicians in a three- or four-year course. Such a person is virtually the same as a dentist. He can extract and fill teeth, and he does all the usual work done by a dentist. But he cannot crown a tooth or take one’s whole jaw-bone apart and put it together again. He does the basic things which an ordinary dentist does. I think 14 are being trained at the moment. They will go out to areas where we need them very much. We cannot take all our people to a dentist. This is the type of service on which the department has been concentrating for years. We want the type of nurse who has acquired additional qualifications in community services. We must forget about spending these millions of rands. We do not need additional money. We must start turning the wheel in the opposite direction: We must take away from curative services, which are on such a high level of specialization that we can no longer afford them in this mixture of the First and Third Worlds in which we live. We shall have to ensure that we go back to good community centres where one can get everything, such as a curative service, family planning, discussion of nutritional problems and a place where children, older people and the other people of that area can come. Then they can go home again and sleep in their own beds, which remain the cheapest hospital beds one can get.

The hon. member for Pietersburg mentioned one or two other matters. He referred to the services of district surgeons. The Cape Province took over these services as from 1 April. Hon. members will understand that all the provinces cannot switch over at the same time. There are certain complications, re-organization that has to take place, etc. The other provinces will switch over on 1 April 1981, or as soon as possible afterwards.

One of the other hon. members mentioned the question of ambulance services. Perhaps I should deal with that at the same time. Section 16B of the Health Act can now be implemented. However, it cannot be done before we have received the report of the Browne Commission. That commission is publishing a report about the financing of local authorities and of the provinces. As soon as this report is available and we have studied it, I believe we shall be able to take a decision. However, we first have to know what the financial implications are. I do not think that anyone can accuse this department of back-pedalling and of not proceeding with things it should proceed with.

This brings me to psychiatric services. It is part of our policy to have the so-called “soft” cases, the cases which can be treated in a provincial hospital, transferred to such a hospital. These are patients suffering from a kind of psycho-neurosis, as the hon. member knows. Then, however, we get the so-called “hard” cases, psychiatric cases which should really be cared for in institutions. We cannot have them admitted to provincial hospitals. They will have to remain in our care. It is a difficult service which we provide in this respect. Often these people cannot help themselves. Therefore we shall have to try to make the best of it and to see whether the provincial administrations can gradually concentrate more and more on the treatment of the so-called “soft” cases, while we continue treating the “hard” cases—if we want to call them that.

The Tara Institution was taken over by the Department of Health from the Transvaal Provincial Administration because it will be able to render a more comprehensive service to the community under the department. That is why the Cabinet eventually decided on this.

The hon. member also referred to the abortion legislation. I want to assure him today that not for one moment do I consider allowing abortion on demand in South Africa. I could quote endless examples of what is happening in other countries. Only the other day I read an article about what is going on in Sweden. There we find this kind of thing. The people there have been morally weakened. Young people in Sweden simply cannot be motivated for anything. This is what a Swedish professor says. All these things can be traced back to the subversion of the ordinary norms and Christian values which we know in this country. I have received a few requests to appoint a commission once again to consider developments over the past five years. I have not yet taken a decision about it. There are memoranda that are well-motivated. There are cases such as those who take part in family planning programmes and who may have five, six or seven children and simply do not feel able to have any more children.

I cannot judge whether this is right or wrong. We have cases in Soweto, for example, where 2 800 cases of septic abortions were treated last year. This is according to an article written by a Black gynaecologist of Soweto. This gynaecologist says that these are people who need help. Some of them have had many children and simply could not give birth to another child. For that reason they preferred to have a septic abortion somewhere. There are more cases of this nature which I do not want to discuss. However, I think we shall consider that very carefully before we come to a decision. Of course, it will be a full Cabinet decision. It will not be my decision alone.

There has also been a request by all these bodies—and this will probably gladden the heart of the hon. member for Houghton; she seems to be angry with me—that there should be ladies serving on this commission as well. I therefore want to assure the hon. member for Houghton today that this will be the case. We shall consider appointing ladies to the commission as well.

That’s good news. I have had to wait a long time for that.

As with so many other things in our national life, I believe it is now time every group began to bear its own burdens. We men cannot deal with all these problems on our own any more.

†The hon. member for Berea mentioned a few of the aspects to which I have already replied. Therefore I shall not reply to each one individually again. The hon. member mentioned the interesting aspect of health personnel. He asked why we did not employ Blacks, and specifically mentioned medical specialists, district surgeons, health inspectors, nursing assistants and health workers. All the health workers we can train, however, we use in the areas in which they live and can work. One cannot have the Black health worker taken out of his area and put into a post serving Whites, thus leaving a shortage in regard to the Blacks. That would certainly be a controversial news item. Those district surgeons whom we can employ, we do employ. If they are not there, however, we cannot employ them. The same applies to health inspectors. If we have them, we use them, but it is no use employing a Black health inspector in a White area just because there happens to be a shortage of White health inspectors. The Whites will just have to carry the can themselves. Nurses and nursing assistants are used on a selected basis. There are areas where the department cannot get staff at all. That is no secret, but here again we must be careful that we do not draw away the Black, Coloured and Indian nurses from areas in which they are doing a very good job. We must not draw them away to fill posts in White areas. That would be ridiculous. I have already dealt with nurses’ salaries and have pleaded again, via the Director-General, to the Treasury. But that can only be dealt with when the next budget comes along.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister whether he agrees, in principle, that a figure of R500 per month is a worthwhile target to aim at in the short term?

I would not like to commit myself. I have not studied that in depth. It is a suggestion that has come from the association. It has been suggested that the trained sister should receive a salary of R500. But their salaries at present are not very far from R500 if one looks at the present-day scale. Nevertheless, we shall be making certain representations. I think one must be very careful, however, before trying to create the impression that there is a crisis in nursing. But even if there is a crisis, if there are no nurses there are no nurses. We are training them as fast as we can and the provinces are also training them. They are not all leaving the profession because of salaries. Many of them are very happy in the profession. I know because I have worked with them for a large number of years. In my term of office I will certainly see what can be done. I shall put the request of the association to the relevant Minister.

The big problem with ambulance services, also mentioned by the hon. member, lies in Natal. The problem there has been investigated. The department has fulfilled all its commitments towards the Durban municipality. I think one should really allow this to settle down. I think one should wait until the Browne Commission report is published. I do not know what will be in the Browne Commission report. Perhaps there is a better deal for the local authorities. We might then find an answer. At a certain stage, however, the provinces will have to start taking over. Whether they can then delegate their authority to the municipalities, remains to be seen.

Reference was also made to a levy on cigarettes. I think that is a matter for the hon. Minister of Industries.

You must motivate him.

Must I motivate him?

Yes.

I shall ask for an opportunity to talk to him. Unfortunately his Vote has already been discussed. In any event, the fact of the matter is that I do not agree with it.

Mr. Chairman, let me just tell the hon. the Minister that the question of Biko and the district surgeons involved is of such national and international concern and so important to this country that I want to make a strong appeal to him.

Why national?

Because everybody in the country is concerned about it, as are people overseas.

That is a new definition of “national”.

It has such deep-rooted implications for the whole system of government in South Africa that I make this appeal, and I hope the hon. the Minister will join me in my appeal. When the full Medical and Dental Council considers the report of its subcommittee, and comes to a conclusion, my plea is that that conclusion should be published and that the full reasons for the conclusion should also be published. That is all I want to say.

I also want to mention the question of nurses’ salaries, raised by the hon. member for Bryanston. In this connection I have one direct and simple question for the hon. the Minister to answer. The question here is: Will he please announce in the course of this debate the new salary scales applicable to nurses in South Africa?

Why must I announce it when every nurse knows it already?

Can he tell me why the Administrator of the Transvaal refused to announce it when he was requested to do so in the provincial council? I think the issue should be put beyond doubt. Thirdly, I want to commend the hon. the Minister for his announcement today that 20 to 25 October will be Heart Week, because that is a matter to which I want to refer now. I share with him the view that we cannot afford to lose a single person.

If the hon. the Minister wants to save people in South Africa and if he wants the campaign on heart diseases to be successful, I think he will give serious consideration to my plea in connection with smoking, because that has a direct bearing on it. Every person in South Africa owes a duty not only to himself, but also to his family with regard to smoking. Certainly, by-laws have established that the comfort and convenience of the public can be provided for by way of legislation. In this regard we must give consideration to public places.

The illness caused to the smoker not only causes him to suffer or puts him to expense, but also causes the taxpayers of South Africa to pay. Since 20 000 billion cigarettes are smoked by South Africans each year, cigarettes with a sales value of R403 million, it costs the country, according to Prof. A. N. Coetzee, approximately R400 million per year to pay for the illnesses of smokers. Out of 6 309 cases of heart disease and lung cancer and of people suffering from the obstruction of air passages, 3 500 are likely to die. Each year 12 000 people die of cancer, and the incidence is 20 times higher for smokers who consume more than 40 cigarettes per day. The death rate is then 20 times higher.

I want to associate myself with the remarks of the hon. member for Tygervallei. Because cigarette smoking puts an increased strain on the heart, smokers have 70% more heart attacks than non-smokers. Recent scientific tests have shown that a young person who smokes 25 cigarettes or more per day increases his chances of a heart attack 30-fold. The incidence of emphyzema is 500% higher amongst smokers. In the United Kingdom one in three die amongst smokers, according to the Royal College of Surgeons. In addition, 50 000 premature deaths occur there each year and 30 million working days are lost due to smoking-related diseases.

Traditional illnesses are usually treated by the medical profession. Infectious diseases, for example, can be cured by vaccination. Historically, therefore, a nation looks to its doctors for better health. They should, however, look to their members of Parliament, because it is from them that action is required. What are we as members of Parliament doing? We must legislate for the disclosure of tar and nicotine contents on each packet of cigarettes. Secondly, there must be legislation to the effect that a warning should be carried on each packet that smoking is dangerous. Thirdly, advertising must be controlled. In this connection I commend the Advertising Standards Authority who have published a code of conduct in the hope that people will comply with it. I am, however, afraid that they will not do so unless forced to do so by legislation. Fourthly, public places must be protected from smokers, as it has been established that people who do not themselves smoke are also affected. Fifthly, the youth must be alerted and made conscious of this danger. Finally, fines that will serve as a deterrent must be provided, because with education there must be enforcement. I want to ask whether Parliament is going to let the opportunity this year pass to get such legislation on the Statute Book.

We must get to the root of the problem, viz. the tobacco leaf itself. The farmers are concerned, but I am not waging a war against the farmers. They can, however, cultivate a leaf with a lower tar and nicotine content. In fact, the leaf can even be used as a source of protein. We have 46 847 hectares under tobacco in South Africa. One hectare can yield 3 364 kg of protein. In other words, 156,6 million kg of protein can be produced by tobacco farmers for animal and human consumption. This information is contained in World Smoking and Health, Vol. 4, No. 3 of Autumn 1979.

We need to undertake research and to launch a publicity and education programme and for that money is needed. Customs yielded R12,59 million and excise R269,05 million from the tobacco industry. If we take only 1% of this, as they do in other countries, for research purposes, we will save ten times the amount that we actually take.

I want to refer to the television programme on smoking by Carole Charlewood and also to the TV film entitled Joe’s heart which some hon. members may have seen. I want to congratulate the SABC on these productions.

That programme was slanted.

Last year 144 000 Whites stopped smoking as a result of these television programmes and the disclosures which were made in regard to the tobacco and tar content of cigarettes, 22% switched to lighter cigarettes, 86% favoured a warning on cigarette packets and 85% were prepared to support a ban on cigarette advertising. There is no need for us to follow China and place a ban on cigarette smoking altogether. Bophuthatswana, one of our new neighbouring republics, actually went so far as to legislate against smoking. Their Parliament unanimously adopted similar legislation with regard to smoking to that which I have proposed.

While I am on the subject of smoking, I also want to discuss the question of dagga. More research needs to be done on this. I believe that pharmacologists and leading medical people should be involved in research on dagga as the public are becoming complacent on the use of dagga. I understand that there have been problems at institutes like Tara where drugs have been smuggled in and sold to patients. I therefore want to call on the hon. the Minister to give attention to institutions like those to see to it that there is adequate supervision and proper surveillance. Certain startling facts with regard to dagga have been established in the United States of America. They found that a person inhales more tar from dagga than they do from cigarettes and that dagga’s active ingredient, commonly known as THC, is detectable in the blood of the user for a long time after the smoker has inhaled. That is not the case with nicotine. In the United States, Prof. Heath, who previously held that dagga was relatively safe, has shown after experiments on monkeys that the substance caused changes in brain structure. Prof. Sir William Paton, head of research at Oxford University’s Pharmacology Department, and a member of an eight-man Government working party, hopes that the reappraisal of dagga which has taken place in America will take place also in Britain. I must in all fairness say that this view is not shared by Prof. Graham, who still believes that dagga is harmless. Therefore there is need for us to do research so that we can draw our own conclusions.

One of the biggest problems facing us in South Africa is the availability of dagga. In this regard I want to commend the South African Police for the work they have done in destroying large dagga plantations throughout the country. In this way they are getting to the root of the problem, and if we can continue to root out these plantations, we will be able to carry on and educate our youth against this problem. [Time expired.]

For after action satisfaction smoke a Lexington!

Mr. Chairman, I wish to associate myself with the hon. members on both sides of the House who have congratulated the hon. the Minister of Health on his handling of the Vote this afternoon, and also with the congratulations to the Director-General on his promotion. I am sure that with this team at the helm, we can look forward to years in which the cause of health will be served in the best possible way.

When the hon. the Minister referred to the jawbone being taking apart, I could not help thinking of the hon. member for Bryanston. In view of our experience of him, I hope the hon. the Minister will be able to initiate some project to have the head of this hon. member opened up and taken apart. However, it should be left in pieces and not put together again, because I think he would best serve the House in that state.

Jealousy gets you nowhere.

I shall try to reply very briefly to what the hon. member for Hillbrow said about tobacco. I have a high regard for him as a person, but it seems as if during the past number of years, he has developed an obsession about tobacco, nicotine and dagga. Once one has developed such an obsession about something, it is extremely difficult for one to view a matter objectively and scientifically. He quoted several statistics here this afternoon in support of his argument. I could also do so, because I am in possession of a file that is full of figures and findings by physicians and researchers throughout the world which prove just the opposite, but I do not think that is at issue this afternoon.

In considering the whole question of tobacco, I ask that we should try to see the total picture and it must be a balanced picture. I myself grew up in the heart of one of the most densely populated rural constituencies in the country, namely the district of Brits, of which I am now the MP and where the greatest quantity of tobacco per co-operative in the entire Republic is cultivated. I earned my very first pocket money during holidays rolling and twisting tobacco. I started smoking even before going to school. I smoked throughout my university career and after that gave it up.

I too.

I do not think one could draw any inferences from that, except that I certainly do not look like a sickly person today.

In other words, you can talk “twak”?

I wish to point out to the hon. member that if he wishes to listen to “twak”, he can get more than enough from the opposite corner.

Only tobacco can be cultivated in those parts of our country under the Government water schemes. The people farm there on very small farms, comprising approximately 12 to 14 ha under irrigation. Only tobacco could profitably be cultivated in those particular areas. The same applies to large tracts of the country, particularly in the border areas. I think it is very important that we should reiterate today that if we were to remove the tobacco industry from the economy, we should be removing 35% of those farmers from the agricultural industry in the border areas, since 35% of the agricultural industries in the border areas are concerned with tobacco and they can only farm there on an economic basis with tobacco. Consequently, as far as I am concerned, there would also be a security risk involved if we were to give effect to the request by the hon. member for Hillbrow without taking a balanced view of matters.

What is basically involved here—and I wish to emphasize this very strongly this afternoon—is a campaign that is being waged against the use of tobacco as a means of enjoyment with so-called medical implications. I have nothing more to say about this. I said at the outset that I could quote researchers who had come to different conclusions. However, I suggest that this afternoon we should consider the essence of the matter and see what it is all about. In essence it is, by implication, a campaign against the agricultural industry. In the second place, it is directed against the tobacco manufacturing industry. In the third place, it is directed against the general consumer public, and you and I do not have the right to deprive them of certain means of enjoyment.

If we were to adopt an unbalanced view of the use of wine and nicotine, then I wish to say tonight what I have often said in this House, namely that there is only one criterion which we could adopt and that is the criterion of moderation. Anything that is overdone—whether one drinks too much wine, smokes too much, eats too much, or works too much—does not conform to this criterion. One also gets the “workaholics” nowadays, just as one gets “alcoholics”. Anything that is exaggerated, is wrong and a crime against oneself, but also against our Benefactor who grants us health.

I have, over the years, developed the highest esteem for the tobacco farmers as people and as employers. They are among the most stable farmers in our country. Their input in our national economy is greater than that of viticulture and of many other industries in our country. In the second place I also refer to the tobacco processing industry, which is certainly one of the finest in the country. It is merely necessary to look at a prestige publication of the Rembrandt organization, a beautiful album entitled Quality Above All. I think every one of the hon. members opposite would learn a great deal if they would take the trouble of just reading through this album, and then going to Rembrandt’s research institute at Stellenbosch, where the most expert and the most scientific research has been done over a period of years, specifically in regard to the question of tobacco, nicotine and other substances.

[Inaudible.]

The hon. member for Hillbrow has never been there, so how can he make interjections now? He knows more about Algeria than he knows about the Tobacco Research Institute here at Stellenbosch. I therefore request the hon. member for Jerusalem, or wherever, please to keep quiet. [Interjections.]

The motto of the Rembrandt Organization is “Quality Above All”. Rembrandt is today the fourth biggest cigarette manufacturer in the world. The organization has 70 factories in 30 countries on all six continents. One hundred and eighty countries are served by the organization. One out of every 12 cigarettes smoked in the free world is supplied by the Rembrandt Organization. I wish to pay tribute tonight to Dr. Anton Rupert, one of South Africa’s greatest sons, for what he has done for South Africa through the tobacco industry. If it had not been for Dr. Anton Rupert, Graaff-Reinet would not have played such a major role in respect of nature conservation. The cultural treasures of Stellenbosch would not have been saved if it had not been for the efforts of Dr. Rupert and his various organizations. I wish to thank him for the high ethical standards and the quality which are characteristic of his services and his products. I wish to thank him on behalf of every tobacco farmer in this country. The success of the tobacco industry is founded on research, dedication to quality, expertise and professionalism—and I should like to try to get the hon. member for Hillbrow to realize this. I invite him to come and visit me at Brits so that I can show him how it is done. It is done much more efficiently there than anywhere else.

I wish to conclude by referring, in the third place, to the campaign against the general consumer public. I am grateful to be able to say that the Government has never been guilty of over-reaction, mass hysteria and actions based on unscientific considerations. The Government has always acted with great responsibility in respect of these three aspects. Moreover, there could be no doubt whatsoever that the Government will approach this matter, too, with great wisdom and circumspection.

I just wish to make three requests to the hon. the Minister. I wish to ask him to give the industry itself the opportunity of protecting itself by its own methods, for example by means of research about the so-called casual relationship between nicotine, tar and cancer. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I am merely rising to reply immediately in regard to this very important matter that has been raised here. If I were to leave it until this evening or tomorrow, we should perhaps have half forgotten what it was all about.

I sincerely wish to congratulate the hon. member for Brits on his balanced approach. I think if one considers the way in which he has stated the matter, namely that one should be over-cautious of mass hysteria, one realizes that this is indeed an area in respect of which one has to be very careful not to create mass hysteria. The hon. member has painted an overall picture of the whole industry. I do not wish to repeat the figures he has quoted, but it is certainly a major industry in our country. I am convinced that the introduction of legislation in this regard would not offer a solution. I replied to a question which the hon. member for Hillbrow put to me in this regard only the other day. Since taking over this portfolio I have already had a great many interviews with the Tobacco Board because I regard the Tobacco Board as the only channel of communication through which I can speak to both the distributors and the tobacco farmers. They all serve on the same board. They requested me to grant them the opportunity of getting their own house in order. I complained to them about the high nicotine condensate in tobacco, a matter which my predecessor, too, also discussed with them in the past. I think they have recently begun to realize that they will have to look into these matters. I had another interview with them only two or three days ago. They signified, of their own accord, their willingness to have particulars relating to the nicotine condensate and tar content of cigarettes printed on cigarette packets as from the beginning of next year. We are not satisfied with that, however. It will be checked by the SABS, by our own laboratory, and by the distributors. Major firms such as Rembrandt and UTC will also be watching one another to ensure that inaccurate details are not printed on the packets. To start with, I am quite satisfied with the progress we have already made. The hon. member for Hillbrow can persuade the organizations conducting the anti-smoking campaigns to complain about the condensate. He is entitled to do so, but I as the responsible Minister must, on the one hand, consider the interests of the industry while, on the other hand, I cannot lose sight of the fact that smoking is dangerous.

It is in the interests of the health of the nation.

Go and twist yourself a “zol”, man.

That hon. member has already had a turn to speak. It seems to me as if he, too, knows something about smoking. I should be surprised if that were the case. The hon. members for Hillbrow and Brits made sensible speeches. The hon. member for Hillbrow is fully entitled to be opposed to smoking, because it is not good for one. However, we are dealing here with people who are only accountable to themselves about the fact that they smoke, whether alone or in the company of others. There is much scope for research into this aspect.

As far as the question of the nicotine and tar content of tobacco plants as such is concerned, the producers have set themselves the task of reducing the nicotine condensate in tobacco. For example, they are importing other varieties. They should be given the opportunity of doing so. The department has decided that we should direct our campaign at the youth in particular, and we have had long discussions about this matter. We have to compile programmes whereby we must try to influence our children not to start smoking. I have told the department that it appears to me as if we may as well write off the inveterate smokers. Let such a person smoke himself to death if he prefers.

Hear, hear! [Interjections.]

We shall, with the aid of campaigns, devote ourselves to the ideal of having healthy young people in all fields. We shall influence the youth with the aid of programmes on the incidence of diseases and make them realize that smoking is harmful. The hon. member for Brits may rest assured that I am quite satisfied with the kilometres of progress we have made with the Tobacco Board during the past few months. I think they realize that other parts of the world are beginning to look somewhat sombre. Just look at the February issue of the periodical World Health. On the front page is the following legend: “Smoking or health: The choice is yours.” I do not smoke. I have, in fact, never smoked and so I actually have 50% more reason to talk about smoking than has the hon. member for Hillbrow, because he smoked for a number of years. I have never smoked, because I do not like the taste. All the diseases that one can contract as a result of smoking, are dangerous. One can get coronary thrombosis, etc. from smoking. However, in this country we have an export industry. If, however, they wish to take this first step of indicating the nicotine condensate and the tar content on cigarette packets, I should feel satisfied that we have already made some progress. I think we could also monitor the position. I think the hon. member for Brits should now be satisfied. I do not know whether one could make cattle feed from tobacco. The hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries would be able to say more about this. It would really be ironical if we perhaps eventually reached the stage where the cattle ate the tobacco while we ate the barley and oats.

I just wish to dwell for a moment on what the hon. member, in his balanced speech, said about moderation. I cannot understand why the hon. member for Hillbrow should concentrate only on the question of smoking. I am much more concerned about the abuse of alcohol in South Africa. In our country, millions of man-hours are lost every year as a result of the abuse of alcohol, and I now am not pointing a finger at any particular population group. It often happens that people cannot go to work on Monday mornings. Do hon. members realize that for every one person who uses alcohol to excess, there are 22 others who suffer as a result? We get hysterical about smoking, but it is only a single person who smokes himself half to death or suffers a heart attack. [Interjections.] An alcoholic, on the other hand, destroys an entire family, and his work also suffers as a result. A smoker would not lose his job.

Do something about it.

The hon. member would do well to listen. It is not 18h30 yet. I know he is in a hurry, because it is pleasant to have a glass of red wine with one’s dinner. I have no objection to that, as long as he does it in moderation.

If we consider this matter in the light of the adverse consequences of excessive smoking, we should rather try to educate our people and we should stop waging hysterical campaigns.

†The cigarette manufacturers subscribe completely to the advertising code of conduct. I have said that as long as they co-operate, I shall not use legislation to curb them. I do not think that is the answer. If I prohibited smoking or drinking tomorrow …

Could we not bring it in under the Immorality Act?

… would the hon. member for Bryanston stop having a drink with his dinner or would the hon. member for Durban Point stop smoking? [Interjections.]

Nothing will stop him.

I think we must rather have an educational programme. Once we have put the facts to the people, viz. that smoking is dangerous and bad for the health and that children especially should not smoke, we would be moving in the right direction. We have already started with educating the youth. We have already gone a long way in presenting them with various programmes in an effort to stop them starting smoking.

I want to end up with the question of dagga.

Helen wants everybody to smoke dagga.

I said you must not send them to gaol.

I was in this House between 1972 and 1975 and I remember a few debates in which the hon. member for Houghton participated. She was a very strong advocate for the open use of dagga.

I did not say that.

The hon. member says that the use of dagga should not be a crime and that it has no ill-effects on anybody. [Interjections.] She even says—and hon. members can read it in Hansard—that there are certain countries where the use of dagga is found to be beneficial.

You asked for a dagga control board at that stage. [Interjections.]

I read a very interesting article—I think it is similar to the one the hon. member for Houghton quoted from—stating that it has been found that dagga causes brain damage and seriously affects the genetic system. I would not like dagga to damage anybody. If one takes all the evidence that exists today, then one can be very sure that dagga should be under even more firm control, if possible by legislation. One hears weekly of the police finding millions of rands worth of dagga being transported to our cities. Yet there is a law against it.

Why do you not take such strict steps also against alcohol?

I was dealing with alcohol just now. Now I am talking about dagga. [Interjections.] I said just now that there was a hazard in everything that was done to excess, a point that was so well made by the hon. member for Brits. His balanced speech could perhaps place this whole question of smoking on a different level. We should refrain from becoming hysterical about it. [Interjections.] There are many worse things that could happen. The speeches by the hon. members for Hillbrow and Brits were different in the extreme. The hon. member for Hillbrow wanted smoking to be eradicated and the hon. member said it was harmful and that we should try to control it; and that is what we are going to do with the aid of the private sector.

I am reasonable.

We have so much progress already that the cigarette manufacturers are, of their own accord, going to start phasing this in as from the beginning of 1981, and they are not going to wait until 1982. Then, too, there are all the tests we are going to carry out. The manufacturers are also going to abide by the advertising code. Once we have succeeded in that, we shall already have come a long way and I think people will then start realizing the dangers which my predecessor pointed out to them. Manufacturers realize that if they do not co-operate with us, we shall have no alternative but to take more drastic action. I feel that as long as there is satisfactory co-operation, and as long as we are succeeding in our purpose of persuading people to smoke less, we can, as I said just now, forget about the old established smokers and rather concentrate our efforts on the youth to see whether we can achieve greater success in that way.

Let us have a smoke break.

Business suspended at 18h30 and resumed at 20h00.

Evening Sitting

Mr. Chairman, if one were a very emotional person and had been listening to the speeches which were made just prior to the dinner break, and if one had had a packet of cigarettes in one’s pocket, one would at first, while the hon. member for Hillbrow was speaking, have felt like throwing it away immediately. However, after the hon. the Minister and the hon. member for Brits had made their speeches, one would have felt greatly encouraged again, and ready to have a smoke. [Interjections.]

If ever a correct decision was taken in the process of rationalizing Government departments, it was the decision to place the former Department of Health and the old Department of Social Welfare and Pensions under the care of the hon. the Minister of Health as one department; not because all aspects of health and social welfare and pensions necessarily belong, in the same category, but because there are so many aspects of welfare and health which are inseparably linked. The co-ordination of these aspects which belong together can only come into its own when they fall under the jurisdiction of one Minister and one department. I am overjoyed at this development, and I believe we shall reap the excellent results of this decision. Experience will in fact show that the present grouping is the correct one.

Last week the discussion group was afforded an opportunity to visit a few welfare institutions in Cape Town. We express our sincere thanks to Mr. Meyer, the Deputy Director-General of the directorate, for arranging the tour. Having mentioned Mr. Meyer’s name now, I feel that I should also like to associate myself with the congratulations which have been conveyed to the Director-General, Dr. De Beer. I also wish to add to these the congratulations conveyed to Mr. Meyer on his appointment as Deputy Director-General.

It is good to have an opportunity to become acquainted in this way with the welfare work which is being done by a diversity of organizations, and to see how welfare organizations are being given an opportunity to help people in their distress and need, as well as to become aware of the feeling of compassion among members of the public towards the lesser privileged. On the other hand it is also gratifying to see how the expression of this feeling and the practice of charity by individuals and organizations is made possible through the mediation of the department, which is always at hand to contribute the State’s share. What is important here is that it must always be remembered and accepted that it is not the exclusive function of the State to do welfare work, but that the public, individuals and also their organizations, have a responsible task of providing care.

This evening I should like to express a few thoughts on district surgeon services. These have already been discussed earlier this evening, and it is true that health services have now been placed under the jurisdiction of the separate provinces. Because Middelburg was the first place in which the district surgeon services were entrusted to the Provincial Administration of the Transvaal—by way of an experiment—and because I referred to this during the 1978 Health debate, when there were still many irksome snags, I feel that it is appropriate for me to refer to this aspect again this evening. This service is referred to on page 32 of the annual report. There the Secretary states that this service is functioning well. I agree with the report, although attention will still have to be given to certain aspects, to which I shall refer again later. Initially the service was rendered on an out-patient basis, where there was not always adequate space at the hospitals because they had not been equipped for this purpose. But the greatest problem I had at the time was the loss of the personal relationship between doctor and patient, which is extremely important for the aged in particular, who comprise the bulk of the patients of the district surgeon. In addition, officials of the Police and the Prisons Service, for whom the services of district surgeons are a condition of service, were not very happy about losing their personal contact with their doctors. In talks in this connection with the superintendent of the hospital, it was found that the hospital also felt the lack of such contact. The position has now been changed. In Middelburg there are two private medical practitioners, who practise as partners on a rotational or agency basis. They are carrying out the services of the district surgeon. They see patients at their consulting rooms. The pressure previously experienced at the out-patients department of the hospital has been relieved, and the relationship between doctor and patient restored. Consequently the patients are very happy.

However, there is one other aspect which could well be looked into. I am referring to the question of medical prescriptions. The initial arrangement was that all prescriptions were to be filled by the hospital pharmacy. After representations from the Police and prisons officials, a concession was made and these officials were allowed to obtain their medical prescriptions from private pharmacists. This is working well. It is a well-known fact that the hospital only keeps medicines which appear on the code list of the province. Sometimes this causes problems if a doctor gives an elderly or another patient a prescription for medicine which does not appear on the code list. In such cases the patients must go to a private pharmacist for the medicine, and has to pay for it himself. It can be said that a similar preparation, which does appear on the code list, could be used instead, but there are cases—and these occur quite frequently; for I receive letters on this matter—where a similar preparation does not agree with the specific patient.

Hear, hear!

Since the provision of health services is the responsibility of the province, and is being applied in Middelburg on an experimental basis, and since various adjustments have already been made to cause the system to work in practice, I would be pleased if the hon. the Minister would be so kind as to have this aspect, too, investigated.

You have no chance.

I must admit that initially I foresaw many problems in regard to the provision of district surgeon services on this basis. Although it costs the State more to do this through the provincial hospital services, I feel at this stage that there is a chance that it may succeed, and I am of the opinion that that practice should be given a proper chance.

Finally, there is one other aspect I wish to touch upon. All social pensioners have the advantage that they can make use of the services of district surgeons and free hospitalization which, in many respects, is worth far more to the pensioner in terms of hard cash than the pension itself. However, there is a group of pensioners, viz. civil pensioners who retired prior to 1973, who are experiencing problems. Some of them retired on pension in the early ’sixties. The pension schemes to which they belong are not very much higher than the social pensions. In my constituency there are several such people. I am thinking in particular of retired teachers who retired during that period. When they retired their pension, plus a little cash, which they managed to save up during their working life, made them self-sufficient. The inflation rate, however, has eroded those people’s means. Even if they are healthy, they are finding it difficult to subsist. At their age, however, their health is not what it should be. What is more, they did not, during their years of service, have an opportunity of joining a medical scheme. Now the medical expenses are catching up with them.

Is it not possible for the hon. the Minister of Health to talk to the hon. the Minister of Welfare and Pensions and find a solution, by helping them on some basis or other, according to a formula, to receive the benefit of medical and hospital services? I am grateful for the fact that there was an improvement in the pensions of these people in the budget, and I am also aware that they have the advantage of the means test in determining the fees which they have to pay for hospitalization, but these things do not solve the problem. I would be pleased if the hon. the Minister could express a few opinions on this problem. Possibly, too, this matter could still be discussed at a group meeting to see whether some or other form of relief cannot be found for these people. These are people who devoted their years of service and their lives to the building of our nation. They rendered valuable service. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I hope the hon. member for Middelburg will forgive me if I do not react to his contribution. He was busy with parochial matters and then went on to pension matters, but I have other matters to discuss with the hon. the Minister.

I was very glad to hear the hon. the Minister say earlier this afternoon that he was still considering, but had not yet made up his mind on, the subject of the appointment of a commission of inquiry into the working of the Abortion and Sterilization Act of 1975. He mentioned that he had received some deputations and some well-motivated memoranda. I hope to be able to persuade the hon. the Minister to go ahead and appoint such a commission of inquiry. I was also glad to hear him say that, in the event of his deciding to appoint such a commission, it would certainly include women members. As the House knows, the last commission of inquiry into this thorny subject before the passing of the Abortion and Sterilization Act did not have any women members on it. The deliberations were made and the decisions taken by men, although the subject under discussion was one which essentially concerned women. I also hope at the same time to persuade the hon. the Minister that it is very important to have representatives of all races on this commission of inquiry, should he appoint it, because, again, this is a matter which vitally concerns women of all races in South Africa.

The hon. the Minister has already mentioned an important article which I want to draw to the attention of the Committee, although not in as great detail as I would have otherwise, because the hon. the Minister is obviously familiar with it. I refer to the article entitled “Abortion a major problem in Southern Africa” which appeared in the South African Journal of Hospital Medicine, Vol. V, No. 6, 1979. In that article the authors pointed out the enormous number of cases that were admitted to the gynaecology wards at Baragwanath for problems associated with abortions. Some 2 881 cases were in fact admitted in the year under consideration. Of these, 1 111 had complications necessitating their admission for more than 72 hours, and there were nine deaths. At least 2 440 cases were the result of illegally induced abortions and each one of these cases, says the report, was at risk of dying, becoming chronically ill, permanently sterile or what is known as a “pelvic cripple”. It is quite clear that abortions performed by unqualified persons in Soweto, from which area these cases came, result in a very high incidence both of morbidity and of mortality. The doctors who wrote this article emphasized the enormous cost of hospital treatment to the community, to industry and to the State. They propose intensive family planning programmes and they make a plea for more reasonable and realistic abortion laws. This, of course, is what the commission would clearly consider, after five years of the implementation of existing abortion laws, which according to these doctors “to say the least, are inadequate”. There is far too much red tape and the whole process of going through all the correct formalities is far too long, even for those patients—a limited number—who may be acceptable according to the Act.

The Baragwanath doctors who wrote this article suggest various modifications, for example that therapeutic abortions should be allowed to women who have five or more children, in cases of proven contraceptive failure, as far as women over the age of 40 are concerned, and in cases of girls under the age of 16 who fall pregnant.

There is another very important document which I am sure the hon. the Minister must have seen, and that is the paper presented by Prof. Dommisse at the congress of the S.A. Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists at Stellenbosch University as recently as last month. Prof. Dommisse’s paper contained the results of a survey which he conducted on the existing abortion laws. He sent out a questionnaire to the 230 full members of the S.A. Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. 70%, or 162, of them replied to the questionnaire. 18%, or 29 members, were satisfied with the present law. 82%, or 133 members, supported major or minor changes to the law and 32%, or 54 members, were in favour of abortion on request before the 12th week of pregnancy. I want to point out to the hon. members for Berea and Pietersburg that nobody has ever asked for abortion on demand. Not even I have asked for that.

That is a change.

Abortion on request is a very different thing.

What is the difference?

There is a very big difference.

Tell us about it.

The hon. member can find out for himself. I do not have time to explain it now, but there is a difference. Again, the vast majority of the members of the society who completed the questionnaire were in favour of the termination of pregnancy in girls under the age of 16. 70% of them supported termination of pregnancy on request for women over the age of 40 and 60% supported termination in cases where it was the sixth pregnancy or successive pregnancies.

I believe that perhaps the most impressive argument in favour of a commission of inquiry is the latest report of the Directorate of Health, because it contains some very interesting statistics on abortion, and more particularly on the reports of hospitals on the section of the Act which requires notification of the removal of residues of incomplete abortions. The important thing to note here is that the total number of notifications of operations for the removal of residue of pregnancy came to 36 851 over an eleven-month period, and if one adds the figures I received for December of last year, the total for last year is 38 797. Of these, 36 851 were in regard to incomplete miscarriages and to septic abortions. I think it is generally accepted in the medical profession that the great majority of these cases are self-induced miscarriages. Among Blacks septic miscarriage and incomplete miscarriage accounted for 20 132 cases. There were 72 girls under the age of 15, 16 599 between the ages of 15 and 24, and 297 women over the age of 45. One must add to this the further sequel of the great number of battered babies that we have in South Africa and the 400 abandoned babies reported in Soweto, in the first three months only of this year, according to the Johannesburg Child Welfare Society. Of course, for the rich the story is very different. They can go overseas and have their abortions performed in Britain. In 1978 there were 541 legal abortions performed in South Africa and between June 1977 and June 1978, that is a period of one year, 356 women resident in South Africa had their pregnancies terminated in the UK. Their less affluent sisters, of course, joined the ranks of the victims of back-street abortionists with all the attendant dangers. I therefore hope very much that the hon. the Minister will appoint a commission of inquiry into the whole question of abortion.

The other matter I wish to raise very briefly with the hon. the Minister is the question of malnutrition. I am very worried about this. I know that the department is conducting a widespread investigation. A country as affluent as South Africa, and blessed with so many economic resources, should not have these enormous numbers of cases of malnutrition, indeed of near-starvation, if we are to believe the reports. I believe that the hon. the Minister should once again make kwashiorkor a notifiable disease. Right up until 1970 it was a notifiable disease. Since then it has not been one. We do know that in the rural areas there are numerous cases of malnutrition and of kwashiorkor, pellagra, marasmus and all the other diseases associated with malnutrition. I think it is very important that we should ascertain the factual situation in South Africa and that we then do something about it. We simply cannot allow that in a country of our wealth malnutrition and near starvation continue to prevail in certain areas.

Finally, I hope the hon. the Minister will do something about the cases of the unfortunate battered wives, a matter which was raised on television and which received some very unattractive comments from certain sources. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Houghton asked the hon. the Minister to appoint a commission of inquiry into the abortion and sterilization practice. I agree with her that we have to look at the situation again, but for a different reason. I should know what the hon. member for Houghton’s sentiments are, and I want to look at this Act for quite another reason. I am rather disturbed about the very large number of abortions conducted on the grounds of danger to the woman’s mental health. This applies to something like 49,4% of such cases. I consider this to be not a very valid reason. I must say it is a very obscure reason. Other disturbing facts concerning abortion, but which I cannot discuss this evening, are quite obvious if one looks at the various statistics.

*However, I should like to talk about quite a different matter tonight. In a debate such as this, where one discusses a Vote, one usually takes stock of what has happened during the past year, but one also looks ahead at what can be expected with regard to health services in the coming year. The new hon. the Minister has inherited a department which functions well. The discussion of this Vote has been conducted at a particularly high level in the past because it has usually involved the minimum of blatant politics. Although I was not present this afternoon, I understand that the hon. member for Bryanston apparently departed from this tradition and attempted to politicize this very important national matter. But I leave it at that, because I think that in the short period that he has been Minister of this department the hon. the Minister has in any event managed to iron out the problems to a large extent; not only those of the department and the medical profession, but those of the pharmaceutical industry as well. It seems as if we may look forward to a year in which this department will rise to new heights. We also look forward to the findings of the Browne Commission, a commission with very wide-ranging terms of reference, and a most important task. Therefore it is a good thing that in the course of the debate this year we should look at the philosophy of the whole health set-up in South Africa and attempt to take a look at the future of medical services, which is, of course, the theme being investigated by this commission. I just wish to point out some of the problem areas which we shall have to consider in future.

In the first instance the most topical matter is the fear that members of the medical profession have, rightly or wrongly, of a possible gradual socialization of health services in South Africa. At the time of the debates on amendments to legislation concerning doctors and dentists, as well as medical schemes, the hon. the Minister put his standpoint with regard to this matter very clearly. I think he managed to reassure members of the profession.

The fact is, however, that the task of the Government with regard to the provision of health services is constantly increasing as time goes by. The appropriation figures for this Vote increase each year. I believe that they increase in proportion to other expenses, as is the trend in the rest of the world.

It is even more disturbing to know that the Government is already buying approximately 70% of all drugs sold in South Africa by way of tender or by the payment of prescriptions to pharmacists. I submit that since the pharmaceutical firms are in a highly competitive position vis-à-vis each other to obtain a large portion of this vast amount by way of tender, they have to tender at almost cost price and must therefore attempt to make their profit on the remaining 30%. Consequently the public has to pay considerably more for the drugs provided by the private sector.

Our methods of tender will have to be reconsidered, particularly with regard to tenders specifying the generic name of the drug. We may ask, for example, whether there is adequate control over the quality specifications with regard to Government tenders. Here I have in mind for example an incident several years ago when a continental firm offered certain tetracycline hydrochloride capsules to doctors at almost ridiculous prices. On closer investigation it appeared that the capsules contained approximately half of the active ingredients they were supposed to contain.

We cannot escape the fact that the Government’s share in the provision of medical and health services is increasing steadily. Where are we to draw the line? Apart from the pressure brought to bear on the Government by the public, and political parties too, there is another important reason for this. As the medical profession becomes more and more sophisticated, the equipment and the methods also become much more sophisticated. This applies to diagnostics as well as therapy. I have in mind for example accelerators, the scanning apparatus, electronic equipment, the apparatus needed for intensive care, etc. The cost of maintaining these instruments and providing the staff needed, is increasing, and is already totally beyond the reach of the private medical practitioner. Consequently the Government must needs provide these services, sometimes at astronomical cost.

This also gives rise to the question of how effectively these facilities provided by the State are utilized. How high is the productivity of this equipment? We may even talk about the theatre facilities provided by the State. There is a feeling, particularly among certain specialists, that facilities in certain private hospitals are utilized more productively. If this is in fact so, then in the nature of things it will delay a process of socialization in the medical field.

According to a recent report I have read, there is another aspect to take into account. In the report the World Health Organization claims that the cost of medical services throughout the world will increase to such an extent within the next 10 years as to be almost totally beyond the means of the Government to bear the cost. This is particularly true of certain socialist countries where a process of nationalization is taking place with regard to medicine. As far as we ourselves are concerned in this regard, not only is it a fact that this escalation of cost affects this Vote that we are discussing here, but it is also a fact that we shall eventually reach a stage where the contributions of individuals to the medical schemes may be beyond their means, as is already the case, in certain respects, in America, where people have to pay up to $15 000 for an average operation. I do not know what the solution is. I wish to say that the commission should investigate this whole set-up in depth. However, I also foresee that the task of the general practitioner will change considerably in future. We shall have to guard against the task of the general practitioner eventually changing to such an extent that he becomes nothing but a reference clerk. I should like to issue a word of warning in this regard. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Newcastle and the hon. member for Middelburg, who spoke before him, both raised a very interesting point concerning a matter which I think will have some very far-reaching consequences in South Africa if we do not take some decisions on these matters they have raised fairly soon. I think it is incumbent upon the hon. the Minister to discuss the matter with his officials and to see to it that some action is taken fairly soon. The question goes far beyond the fact that, as the hon. member for Newcastle has stated, the State buys large quantities of tender drugs at very low prices, something which in turn forces the manufacturers of those drugs to compensate it by raising the prices the private consumers and private enterprise have to pay. The fact that the State—when I say “the State”, I mean the State and other institutional buyers—is currently supplying something like 60% to 65% of the medicines consumed in South Africa, is a very important aspect of the problem. It goes beyond the problem of the manufacturer having to raise his price to his other consumers. The real problem lies in the fact that companies that are doing original research are very often overlooked as far as tenders are concerned, because there are those I would call the patent pirates who, as soon as the patent of a drug has expired, manufacture that drug in large quantities, precisely for the purpose of being awarded such tenders as the hon. member has referred to. Because they have not been liable for the costs of research into the development of new drugs, and because they concentrate on producing drugs that are already known in the market, they are able to win the tenders on the basis of a cheap price. Very often the only criterion of their being awarded that tender is a cheap price. The hon. member for Newcastle has indicated that very often the cheap tender drugs are demonstrably inferior to the original product developed after original research by a world-renowned company manufacturing under the very best of conditions. I think we have to look very carefully at this, because otherwise we might reach the stage that companies refuse to do research because it is cheaper for them to produce mass-produced, well-known drugs whose patents have expired. They are going to look at the question of the cost of their research and then say it is just not worth their while to go to all that expense and have all that drama and trauma to get new drugs registered when within a very short space of time, after a patent has expired, any company can manufacture those drugs cheaply and get the tenders. I believe far more choice should be allowed to the doctor in his decision about what he wants his patient to have. I believe that our code lists are too restrictive and that we are not going to keep ahead of some of the killer bugs that have come perilously close to being resistant to the antibiotics we know today if we do not take action. If we want companies to research new antibiotics and new drugs that are vital to the health of the nation, we are going to have to look very carefully at this tender system.

I should also very briefly like to raise with the hon. the Minister the question of the outbreaks of typhoid in this country recently. I want to place special emphasis on that outbreak of typhoid at Inanda in Natal. The Inanda community is not a squatter community. It has been there for a long time. There are nearly 100 000 people in a settled community and the only problem they have is that there is no permanent supply of water to them. They have had an annual outbreak of typhoid for the last three years and this year’s was the worst. We only treat the symptom. Water is ferried in in water tankers at vast expense and with a tremendous fuel wastage. A permanent water supply is needed even if only to certain selected strategic points in that community. Without such a permanent water supply all the health education in the world, aiming at making those people conscious of better personal hygiene, is going to be absolutely wasted. I know the hon. the Minister is not responsible for supplying water, but my point is that he should be making strong representations to the people who are responsible to get a water supply there without further waste of time.

Has it been proved that the water is the carrier of typhoid?

No, but the lack of water is responsible for the fact that the outbreaks occur regularly every year in the dry season when the inhabitants are unable to obtain water for personal hygiene uses. Water is the single biggest factor in that outbreak. In fact, there has been another outbreak recently in the Eastern Transvaal. I ask the hon. the Minister to give this his very special attention.

Mr. Chairman the hon. member for Berea dealt, inter alia, with patent medicines which had exceeded their expiry date. I do not wish to react further to his speech, except to say that I think he belongs to a party which is long past its expiry date. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Tygervallei spoke with great satisfaction about the Medical Research Council which is situated in his constituency. I want to refer to his constituency without his permission and also discuss the Medical Research Council. I hope he will excuse me.

To begin with I want to pay tribute to the president, Dr. Andries Brink, and to his co-workers and officials who do exceptional work not far from here. I want to praise this work that is done in the interests of the entire world. Its starting point is in our midst among the people of this nation in this country, but it is also oriented towards Africa and the world in the interests of world health. It is also necessary that we should take note of the objectives of the council. In the first place it assists in promoting the health of the people of the RSA; in the second place the aim is to undertake research, seek new knowledge and new methods of utilizing existing knowledge affecting human health; in the third place the aim is to promote co-operation in the field of research, both here and abroad, and in the fourth place the aim is to foster and contribute financially to the training of persons with a view to medical research. It is very clear from this that co-ordinated planning is carried out and that co-operation with other research institutions is necessary and does indeed take place. It is also appropriate to re-emphasize that the results of the work done are also to the benefit of Africa and the entire world.

We do not ask that the people of Africa and the rest of the world be used as guinea pigs or that they should donate money to supply our needs as far as research projects are concerned. All we ask is understanding for what the Medical Research Council, among others, are engaged in doing. They are conducting co-ordinated research and are extending a hand to share knowledge and skills with developing countries and the rest of the world. Nations that are indissolubly linked to and interdependent with us dare not refuse our extended hand in the medical field.

In the latest annual report issued by the council we are told of numerous highlights resulting from the enterprising research efforts launched, for example the progress made in the field of cancer research with special reference to Black people in the Transkei who often suffer from liver and esophageal cancer. Another very exciting development is the discovery of a substance in the heart tissue which appears to be primarily responsible for the inability of adult heart muscle cells to recover after it has been damaged. We wish the researchers all of the best with their further research in this connection.

Moreover, international contact is sought and promoted, in line with the objectives of that council. Nor is it news any longer that our researchers in the medical field have achieved a great deal of fame for South Africa through the work they perform and the results they achieve. We must not forget those researchers and their assistants. I want to repeat what I said earlier this year in my maiden speech, namely that I believe we ought to erect a monument to this unknown researcher and technician.

South Africa is no longer a member of the World Health Organization, but through the Medical Research Council is a member of the Council for International Organizations of Medical Sciences, and the secretary of that organization paid a visit to South Africa at the invitation of the Medical Research Council and was tremendously impressed by the quality of research carried out in this country. He was also highly impressed by the health care we afford our local populations and by the sound co-operation between researchers, clinicians and hospital authorities. South Africa has very sound medical researchers—however, that is not enough. Every qualified member of the medical profession who seeks to devote himself to the task of medical research must be afforded the opportunity to do so. Researchers at universities and at the institutes of the Medical Research Council itself may not be burdened by a lack of medical and technical assistance.

Taking all these objectives into account, it is to be understood that all this can only be done if the necessary funds are provided. Therefore it is a pity that in reading the presidential annual reports one often finds that performance of the task is hamstrung due to a lack of funds. However, allow me to add immediately that despite this, the president was also able to say in a recent report that the research achievements are becoming more tangible in many respects. The amount of more than R6 million voted for the present financial year is simply inadequate to do justice to the envisaged aims of such an undertaking. Special consideration ought therefore to be given to a young, developing research enterprise like the Medical Research Council so that this council can maintain a more rapid growth and can take its place alongside the other older and more established research organizations.

I wish to express the hope that the council’s effort to make a start with the active collection of research funds will be well supported by the private sector. I also want to appeal to the leaders in commerce and industry to give positive support to these efforts.

I also wish to request the hon. the Minister to see to it that the Department of Health utilizes the Medical Research Council as a research arm so as to prevent overlapping of activities. In this way the council will be able to make an even greater contribution in the field of medical research. Overseas researchers in the medical sciences are very envious of South Africa due to the opportunities that exist here to evaluate disease patterns in many fields. Here where developed and developing communities live side by side, the health image is also influenced as a result. In this country where we also see how urbanization also entails changes in disease profiles, our research possibilities and fields are unlimited.

I believe that, originating in this Parliament, there will be a growing drive for positive support so that it will be possible for bodies such as the Medical Research Council to succeed in their objectives and to carry out their task in the interests of our people’s most important asset, their health.

Mr. Chairman, I have no quarrel with what the hon. member for Rustenburg said. I agree with him that the MRC is doing a very good job. I associate myself with his remarks. I also want to compliment the council on a very fine report and I wish the council well for the future. I cannot say the same, however, for the hon. member for Brits. I deplore his attempt to draw a red herring across the path in arguments raised here about the health of the nation. He tried to play smokers and tobacco farmers off against each other. There is no such issue involved, and I think it is very wrong of the hon. member to have tried to create such an issue.

You are running away now.

No, I am not. I said very clearly that the tobacco farmer will have to consider growing a leaf with a far lower nicotine and tar content. That he has to do in the interests of people’s health. I also said that no one expects tobacco to be phased out. I did say that there was an alternative in its use for the production of protein, which gives a very good yield. Let me tell the hon. member for Brits that the farmer is just as prone to coronary thrombosis and other respiratory diseases as any other person. Therefore he has just as much interest in this question as anyone else. In fact, the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North, who has apologized for not being present tonight, was going to speak, as a farmer, in favour of reducing the nicotine and tar content of tobacco. So it is not a war against farmers, and it is very wrong for that hon. member to draw that conclusion. It is not a question of returns either. Would the hon. member support farmers growing opium merely because there are very high returns? Would the hon. member support farmers growing dagga because there are very high returns? [Interjections.] So why reduce the argument to the ridiculous? Why not stick to the facts, therefore, and refrain from drawing red herrings across the path? Let us approach this matter sensibly. That hon. member must not come along here with that kind of nonsense.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member a question?

No, I am not answering questions. I only have ten minutes.

Mr. Chairman, I want to raise a point of order.

Order! The hon. member for Hillbrow must resume his seat.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: I want to put it to the hon. member and ask him whether he is of the opinion that it is possible with 600 … [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member must resume his seat. That is not a point of order.

If that hon. member holds a brief for the Rembrandt Group, may I ask him about the research they are doing into nicotine and tar …

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: Can one hon. member, with respect, suggest that another hon. member is holding a brief for a manufacturing company, in other words that his point of view is biased by virtue of his association with such an organization?

Order! The hon. member must resume his seat. That is not a point of order. The hon. member for Hillbrow may proceed.

I want to ask the hon. member to go back to Rembrandt and ask those people to publish their findings about the tar and nicotine content of the products they sell. Let him ask them if they are prepared to do that because the South African public wants to know. [Interjections.] After they have published their findings, would the hon. the Minister then have those findings vetted by some other organization to corroberate such findings? Then we would have some kind of argument to deal with. The hon. the Minister over here says …

He is over there!

… he is very worried about alcohol. We are all very worried about alcohol. When dealing with drug addicts in rehabilitation centres, they are asked why they take drugs. Their answer is: Why not? You people take alcohol, so why can we not take drugs? That is the answer they give. What I am therefore telling the hon. the Minister is that two wrongs do not make a right. If there is an alcohol problem, let us deal with an alcohol problem, and if there is a drug problem, let us deal with the drug problem. With great respect, one should not try to relate the one to the other. If one does one is missing the point.

I want to move on to another subject, viz. family planning. In this respect I want to refer to the population explosion. I want to suggest that this is the most threatening problem humanity has ever faced.

Do you want to stop all sport? [Interjections.]

One-third of the human race suffers from malnutrition. We have to improve family planning and we have to provide adequate facilities and education in respect of birth control. We should consider whether in fact there should not be more tax benefits for families with fewer than two children. The Chinese are offering economic and social benefits to people who produce one child only.

Let us have a look at the population growth. In 1650 the growth rate was 0,3%. At that time it doubled every 250 years and there was a population of 500 million. The latest figure we have is that in 1970 there was a growth rate of 2,15%. That doubles every 33 years and we have a population of 3 600 million. The human population increases exponentially. In other words, the increase accelerates. Babies born this year will in time have children of their own and so the population grows. The faster the growth, the greater the problem. The problem then relates to jobs, skills, housing, hospitals, transport and so on.

A commission of inquiry of the USA reported that, if families were limited to two children, the population would increase from 200 million to 266 million by the year 2037. Higher productivity is increasingly absorbed by the population growth and by the end of this century the world population will reach the staggering figure of 7 billion. Food, water, space and raw materials are not inexhaustible and land does not grow. If man is to survive, we must wake up now. I call upon the hon. the Minister to act now and to plan now and consider ways and means of dealing with this problem.

An additional problem is, of course, malnutrition. This serious problem was also referred to by the hon. member for Houghton. 50% of deaths amongst Black people and Coloured people occur within the age group of those under five years, as against 7% amongst White people. 60% of deaths are caused by gastro-enteritis and pneumonia. Malnutrition lowers the resistance, not to mention the thousands who are treated for kwashiorkor and marasmus. Malnutrition will also account for the death of 25% of babies born in Soweto every year. Keeping the population down will also help to keep the problem down. On the other hand, the lack of population control will increase the problem of malnutrition.

I know that we have specific problems facing us in South Africa. I know that there is resistance amongst the male members of certain groups in so far as family planning is concerned. I think that with education and proper explanation we can get them to accept the fact that there should be a measure of family planning or family control.

Who is “them”?

Well, among certain Black races there is a resistance to family planning. Whereas we all love children, we must nevertheless give serious consideration to this problem which, if it is not arrested now, will grow out of hand. We certainly do not want to have the problem resolved by a Third World War or by mass genocide. We would rather that everyone should live healthily, happily, content and adequately fed. We must, however, face the problem and deal with it and not pretend that it does not exist.

You are reading too fast.

Well, let the hon. member listen properly. There is one other aspect I should like to attend to and that is the question of fluoridation. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to take the argument advanced by the hon. member for Hillbrow any further because he advanced two entirely divergent ideas. On the one hand he is concerned that our people are smoking themselves to death, and on the other he is concerned about the population explosion. Why does he not rather leave those people to smoke themselves to death? [Interjections.] He ended his speech on a high note and the hon. the Minister will probably reply to him. I think that the hon. member for Brits, too, stated his case well in reply to the hon. member for Hillbrow, and I want to associate myself with his idea that we should fight for the farmers, even if it be only the tobacco farmers.

This evening I should like to break a lance for pharmacy, particularly the pharmacist on the platteland. Modern pharmacy is concerned with all aspects of medicine— manufacture, storage and distribution, the sale and supply of medicine to patients and the furnishing of advice as to its correct use. There are approximately 5 500 registered pharmacists in South Africa, 60% of whom are in general practice in pharmacy, 9% in the manufacturing industry and the distribution of medicine and 12% in hospital pharmacies.

The pharmacist in general practice is in close contact with the patient and plays a unique role in society, particularly on the platteland, because he is the most accessible professional person with a special knowledge of medicine and an understanding of health matters. The pharmacist has to undergo an intensive academic training of four years plus compulsory apprenticeship for a period of a year before he can be registered in order to practise. It is therefore clear that a pharmacist is well trained to perform certain health services in society.

One asks oneself whether the pharmacist’s profession could not be utilized to a greater extent in the present health pattern of the Republic. The hon. the Minister said this afternoon that he was of the opinion that we should come back to the basic health services for the community. Bearing in mind the shortage of doctors, I want to ask whether we could not make greater use of pharmacists to perform certain health services.

As I have already indicated, the pharmacist plays an indispensable role in public health on the platteland. These people feel threatened, however, and some of them are really struggling to make a living. They maintain that no other service profession is subject to as many restrictions imposed by legislation, other professions and statutory bodies as is the profession of pharmacy.

To illustrate this I just want to mention a few examples. The medical practitioner who inspects a patient can also provide him with medicine. In many instances a doctor obtains the ingredients of the medicine at a far lower price than that paid by the pharmacist. For example I have been told—and in this regard I want to agree with what the hon. members for Newcastle and Berea have said—that the price of a certain capsule is R114 per 1 000 for the pharmacist whereas for the medical practitioner it is made available at a price of between R20 and R26 per 1 000. I could not believe that, but having listened to the hon. members for Newcastle and Berea this evening, I can understand that it is possible that such a thing can happen.

I want to mention another example. A pharmacist must have a licence to sell certain poisons, for example strychnine. To be able to sell these poisons he must take out a licence which costs him R10, whereas he does not even sell R10 worth of poisons every year.

With these few words I want to say to the hon. the Minister that the pharmacists on the platteland are rapidly disappearing. I think that their knowledge and experience with regard to certain aspects of health could well be used to a greater extent. I want to refer to what the hon. member for Middelburg said here, namely that the pharmacists had to provide some of the prescriptions issued at hospitals. In a period such as this when there is a shortage of people able to provide health services, we want to appeal to the hon. the Minister to give consideration to the role the pharmacist could play in this regard in the future.

Mr. Chairman, I hear from the Whips that we must now finish dealing with the health aspect of my Vote, and consequently I should just like to reply to the few matters which were raised by hon. members on the various sides of the House. I should like to begin with the hon. member for Middelburg and thank him for his kind words to the Director-General and the Deputy Director-General. On their behalf I thank him for the way in which he did so, particularly, too, since he thought that the rationalization of this department could be very successful. I must agree with the hon. member. During the short while I have occupied this position, during which time the two departments have been amalgamated, they have been actively engaged in ensuring that the rationalization process is carried out. I think it is important, now that we know that they should be brought together, that we finalize this great task as quickly as possible, and I wish to give all credit and praise to the Director-General and the Deputy Director-General. I am certain that we will have been completely rationalized in a reasonably short space of time. But we have problems. There are two systems of computers and there are two sets of estimates which have to be amalgamated during the next few months, and if we can succeed in doing this before the end of the year, we would have done very well although I should like to see that we do this in a shorter time if it is possible. I shall gladly convey the sentiments and congratulations of the hon. members to them.

The hon. member also referred to the district surgeon services which were taken over by the Transvaal Provincial Council, but in point of fact this is not yet the whole take-over. The Transvaal will only effect a take-over from 1 April 1981, because there was the problem that the services there actually had to be introduced as an emergency measure. There were certain problems which arose there. What the hon. member mentioned towards the end, and even in the middle of his speech, was a reference to how it was working at present, and whether the patient-doctor relationship had improved. There is a medical practice with two doctors working on a rotational basis, and the patients go to the consulting rooms. This is actually what the department and I had in mind, and not only from today either. These things have come a long way, in fact they accompanied the entire Health Act. In the end we hope that that doctor-patient health service which is being rendered there, as well as the relationship between them, will improve to such an extent that one will no longer receive the complaints one is receiving at present, let us say from the police, or from elderly persons or from pensioners who allege that they have to sit and wait for long periods of time, etc. Our only hope is that it will work in the same way as it is in certain aspects of the service which is now in operation at Middelburg. If we succeed in doing so there, I think it will be a precursor for such services in many other places of ours.

Referring to the question of the pharmaceutical service and the out-patients, we know that these were not entirely satisfactory, but we hope that these things will also be remedied. In a moment I shall deal in slightly greater detail with pharmacies when I reply to the hon. member for Winburg. I do not think the provinces are unwilling, and we in the department also feel that they should make use of the retail pharmacist. The department had a very good relationship with them. Even its accounts went to a central point, where they were checked by the pharmacists themselves and then simply referred back to the department before payment was effected. I have already spoken to the MPCs of the hospital department, and I hope that it will be possible for the same system to continue, because one feels very strongly that the pharmacist should in fact have a place in the system. I shall reply to this more fully in a moment.

The hon. member also discussed the position of civil pensioners, particularly those who began to receive their pensions prior to 1973, and asked whether they could not also receive medical services. This is something we shall look into. I cannot furnish a specific reply to that question this evening. At this stage it is only the social pensioner or those who are totally indigent who can receive that service. Perhaps I could just mention that there are cases of persons who retired prior to 1973 and who have already received an increase of up to 400% in respect of their pensions. There is even the case of a person who retired as long ago as 1 May 1958, and whose pension has therefore gone up 883%. So percentages do not really count. What is important is the amount which he receives. The hon. member may think that he should probably have received a large increase. If an hon. member were to raise this subject later, I shall elaborate on it a little further. I have a few ideas for the future in regard to pensions. The needs must also be taken into consideration when it comes to the Black people, Coloureds, Whites and Asiatics. We want to meet the needs of the pensioners, for if we can succeed in doing so, we immediately eliminate the stigma that a Black person does not receive the same pension as a White person. Well I think this is something which I will be able to take further a little later. It is very important just to point to the hon. member that we have this year—in fact, he admitted it in his speech—effected an increase of 20%, 15% and 10% respectively for the pensioners who retired prior to 1969, those who retired prior to 1973 and the present pensioners, so that we would not simply increase everyone’s pension by 10% or 15%, for if one did that one would not really be narrowing that gap. We even introduced a minimum increase of R30. The whole idea behind this increase is that one wishes to try to ensure that these people are able to live decent lives. I am now referring to the civil pensioner who did not, in those early years, contribute much. Naturally he is now receiving a like amount. But that is the basis on which a pension is calculated.

†The hon. member for Houghton raised a few interesting points. I think that her quote from table No. 12 in the report of the Department of Health might mislead the House to a certain extent. The hon. member quoted the figure of 38 799 with regard to miscarriages and septic abortions. I think that if the hon. member should look at the fourth column, she would see that the figure in respect of septic abortions was only 1 541 out of a total of 38 851 abortions. There are ordinary abortions as well. They do not all have to be interfered with. There are lots of normal conditions. I do not think the hon. member implied that, but in case the House should think that there were 36 851 possible abortions, I want to point out that the septic abortions only amounted to 1 541. In this other group one could also have had those that got away without going septic, of course. That constitutes the difficulty when one deals with this type of case. The hon. member raised the question of Prof. Dommisse, who read a paper which, I want to point out, was not accepted by the congress as such. I have a letter from the chairman of the congress in which he says that I must realize that that was not a congress decision, but that it was only a paper by Prof. Dommisse in which he put forward certain cases. However, there is a dilemma in this whole situation.

The hon. member for Hillbrow also raised a few points with regard to family planning. When I pushed him to say who he was talking about, he said that he was talking about the Black population. It is quite obvious that as soon as the department, I or anybody else, says that we must now allow certain measures to keep the birth rate down, it is always construed as if we want to keep the Black population down. I think it is important that one must realize that questions such as baby battering and the beating of wives the hon. member for Houghton was talking about when her time expired, have to be considered individually. In this regard I want to refer to, for example, the Black mother in Soweto who has eight, nine or ten children and goes to the family planning clinic, but then suddenly finds that she is going to have another baby. This is what the gynaecologist the hon. member for Houghton quoted actually wrote a very interesting article about. Amongst other things he said that he felt that the Act should be modified so as to permit therapeutic abortions on persons under 16 in certain cases. He was specifically talking about Soweto. That is the dilemma I have. I cannot introduce an Act in Parliament in terms of which therapeutical abortions are allowed only in Soweto and not elsewhere. One would therefore have to look at it very carefully while taking into consideration the total population of the country.

If you want to keep the population down, let them smoke.

I was interested in what the hon. member for Houghton had to say about malnutrition. I was very worried and actually felt very bad about a very nasty article about malnutrition that appeared on the front page of the Rand Daily Mail a short while ago. The authors of this article were the MPC for Houghton, Dr. Selma Brodie, and Dr. Motlana. They said about 50 000 South African children would probably die from malnutrition in the rural areas during this winter, while the lives of a further 100 000 were at risk. The MPC for Houghton then asked what we are doing about it.

The important point is that Dr. Brodie and Dr. Motlana knew exactly what we were doing. In November 1979 they had an interview with the Department of Health during which they were given all the information as to the department’s subsidy on powdered milk and protein derivatives in the various areas. The subsidy for this year amounts to R280 000, allocated as follows: R10 000 for the Orange Free State; R25 000 for the Eastern Cape; R150 000 for the Western Cape; R15 000 for Natal; R70 000 for Southern Transvaal and R10 000 for Northern Transvaal. The whole idea is that the local authorities can use this 66% subsidy of 90 cent to purchase powdered milk and also protein derivatives. However, we have a problem in that these amounts are not used to the full. Dr. Brodie and Dr. Motlana were told this. In fact, the department asked them why they did not direct their efforts at the people who could help us. The department is doing its best to prevent malnutrition. I do not agree with their figures. I think these are figures that were published for a semi-political reason in a paper that certainly does not favour the Government. I think they are only trying to place us in a very bad light in the eyes of the rest of the country and of the world. Their scientific evaluation was based on replies they received to letters they sent to a lot of mission hospitals, letters in which they asked how many people were suffering from malnutrition. I practised for 12 years on the border of the Transkei. If I saw five dozen cases of severe malnutrition in those 12 years, it was a lot. That particular area is a predominantly Black area. One cannot accept this story of malnutrition being behind every bush. A great deal depends on the attitude of the doctor who is dealing with these cases and who is the local authority’s MOH. We have found, for instance, that at clinics that employ full-time doctors much more use is being made of milk powder than at the sessions at which people turn up.

Atteridgeville distributes three-times as much milk powder as Mamelodi, which has a much larger population. That is not the fault of the Minister or the Department of Health. Either the milk powder is not being distributed or there is no malnutrition. It can only be the one or the other. The fault does not lie with us. The machinery is there and has been created by the Department of Health over a number of years. There was no justification in going to a newspaper about six months after Dr. Brodie and Dr. Motlana visited the Health Department and thrashed this matter out. What has these people done in the meantime? Have they consulted the doctors in Atteridgeville, Mamelodi and such places and asked them to try to get more milk powder? The money is there. We did not use our total budget last year.

The milk powder is also there.

Yes, the milk powder is also there, and the hon. Minister of Agriculture will ensure that it is always there where malnutrition is a threat. [Interjections.] Even the smaller local authorities are not making use of this offer by the department. I do not think the hon. member must blame us. The hon. member said we should do something. We are doing everything possible. But one can take a horse to the water but cannot make it drink. If all the milk powder is used, we will give further subsidies, but we cannot feed every child who is a potential case of malnutrition.

What about making kwashiorkor a notifiable disease?

I shall consider it and consult the department. It is not always a result of insufficient food. Malnourishment is as big a problem in certain groups. Refined products, for example refined mealie-meal instead of mealie-meal with roughage which has been protein-enriched, also causes malnutrition. We shall have to consider whether all mealie-meal should not be protein-enriched in this country. At the moment all mealie-meal which Bophuthatswana buys must be protein-enriched. The hon. member for Hillbrow mentioned that he thought the smoking regulations in Bophuthatswana were very good. I think the way they are using mealie-meal is especially to their credit.

*The hon. member for Newcastle raised the matter of the greater involvement of the Government in health services. I think it is very important that I say this again here tonight, so that it can be placed on record, that the Government is not in favour of the socialization of health services. To tell the truth, I would do anything to dissociate the Government from this to a greater extent, so that the private sector can make a larger contribution. When I accepted my portfolio earlier this year and tariffs were increased, I was accused of wanting to socialize the health services. That was not our intention at all. In the time which lies ahead, we shall see what we can do in all spheres. It is very important that the private sector should make a greater contribution to help. The Government cannot keep on imposing heavier taxes in order to provide certain services. I know that the hon. member for Newcastle must unfortunately run from this House to the Other Place now. Nevertheless I wish to react to his speech so that it can be placed on record. He said that 70% of medicines was purchased and distributed by the State. However, one must remember that there are indigent patients and that the provincial hospitals and the Defence Force rely on the State. One should not regard this as a movement towards socialization. I wish to assure the hon. member that this is in no way the intention. Since the hon. member is an influential person, I am certain that he will be able, in the places where he operates, to give medical practitioners the assurance that we are certainly not moving in that direction.

The hon. member also referred to expensive equipment, but in all provinces there are open provincial hospitals and which are used by private medical practitioners, precisely because they cannot afford to equip their own operating theatres with X-ray equipment, for example, and everything else that is required. That is why medical practitioners are using the provincial hospitals and that is why they are in a more privileged position than the dentist, who has to buy his own chair and equipment. He cannot move into a hospital and render his services there. That is why we are moving inexorably in the direction of having to create more community centres in which the private sector can be involved—whether full-time or on a rotational basis does not matter—the private medical practitioner must be involved in this. The patient must be able, for example, to receive dental care, advice on nutritional problems and the care of babies, pediatric assistance and care of the aged. It must be possible to provide all these services, including that of the district surgeon, in one central area. The patient must therefore be able to go in at one side and out the other, after having received treatment in a way in which, and level on which, we can afford in South Africa. It is not necessary either for a patient to see a specialist for every ailment.

That sounds a lot like Pick ’n Pay!

The hon. the Deputy Minister of Agriculture says it sounds like Pick ’n Pay to him. I hope that it will work out like that. However I do not know whether it can be done on that scale.

†The hon. member for Berea referred to the question of typhoid in the Inanda area. I was not being facetious when I asked the hon. member whether it had been proved that the disease was being spread through the water supply. There are so many other carriers of typhoid. A place might even be infested by human carriers of the disease. I should like to state that if anything can be done, the department will do its best to try to establish a proper reticulation and purification system there. We are also investigating the possibility of the Director-General being enabled, in terms of the Act, to act as the local authority in certain areas. He is empowered by the Act to do this. I do not want to say that he can do it. But it might just be possible to use this method as a means to ensure that the proper reticulation system is being installed there. We will certainly bear in mind what the hon. member has said and try to do something about the matter.

The hon. member also spoke about patents and genetics. I think there is room for both. The commission that has just been appointed will, I believe, look into all the aspects, and I hope that by the next parliamentary session we will be able to continue this discussion.

*The hon. member for Rustenburg raised a few interesting points. I wish to assure the hon. member that I support him in his tribute which he paid to the MRC and to Prof. Brink and Prof. Van Heerden, the deputy chairman of the MRC. Prof. Van Heerden must exercise control in what is virtually a part-time basis over the MRC and all its staff. Actually he and I go back a long way with the MRC. This is an organization which was established by law. In the long way I have come with the MRC it has become clear to me that they are very dedicated people in the MRC. When staff members were being sought and it was not possible to acquire a suitable site anywhere, the Cape offered them a site. That, too, is why the head office of the MRC was moved to Cape Town. The head office of the MRC is situated on the site of the Tygerberg Hospital. As MPC I had the honour of opening the complex. I am saying this merely by virtue of my association with the MRC.

I do think that there are things we can still do. I want to put it to the hon. member that I am certain that we will in the near future have to give attention to the whole field of research. At present research is being done by the university. They carry out certain research projects of which I know the MRC has to approve and play a part in. On a much smaller scale research is also being done by the department. There is a well established unit of the MRC here in Cape Town, where nutritional research is being done. Perhaps it is nevertheless time to investigate the establishment of a good and well-equipped office in the Transvaal as well. I think we should investigate this possibility in areas where there are many people. If finance is a problem we must give attention to that as well. I am certain that we will be able to find the manpower, and I hope, together with the MRC and the department and if necessary other bodies as well, will be able to review the whole position of research in future. I do not know what the position is, but I think there could also be better co-ordination of the research work done by various universities, although the MRC is already playing a major part in this connection. Consequently I wish to convey my gratitude and appreciation to the hon. member for what he said, for after all we are one big happy family. It is in the interests of the country to do the research which will be able, in the first place, to keep us on the world map and, what is perhaps even more important, would ensure that we can overcome the problems which we have in this country and which do not occur in other countries.

†The hon. member for Hillbrow reminds me of a heavy-weight boxer who was knocked out at the end of the first round and who, after long efforts to revive him, came out fighting again in the second round. I think he made a bit of a harsh, emotional attack on the hon. member for Brits. I thought the hon. member for Brits had made a very good speech, a very balanced one. I replied to the two members, and even at that stage I advocated taking smoking out of the everyday humdrum of debate. I actually told the hon. member that as of 1 January 1981 the Tobacco Board would, through the Rupert group, the UTC and others, see to it that the tar content is indicated on the packet. The hon. member said we would first have to see it. That may be so, but that is what I have been promised. I have it here in writing. They also said that they would produce a list of all the cigarettes produced in the country and give it to the department. On this list there would be an indication of the tar level. I put it to them that in the time that lies ahead the department would, with all its research and knowledge of what has been done in other countries, find out what the norms are for “medium”, “light”, “heavy”, “dangerous” or whatever. In this way groups who hate smoking can get down to warning the people. The department would have an active programme going at schools. We are not in favour of smoking. We only feel that the approach must be a balanced one, not a sort of kill-all-before-breakfast effort.

The hon. member also spoke about family planning. I think there is one important thing we shall have to do in the next short while, bearing mind aspects like abortion, family planning and the need for manpower in this country. We shall have to start looking at a population strategy. Involving all our population groups. One cannot stay behind while the other run ahead. After all, we want a country in which everyone is going to get a proper job. People will have to realize the need for a proper population strategy. Otherwise we shall find ourselves in the same position as places like Japan and certain Western countries, e.g. West Germany, where there is suddenly a population gap. There are many old people and many children, with a worker gap in the middle. Then one has to have the old people working longer and younger people have to be given more responsible jobs. This is not something one can just plan overnight. I undertake, however, that before the next session the department and I, and all people concerned with family planning, from all groups, will have a look at this. I want to give the hon. member for Houghton this assurance right away. She talked about the projected commission. It is very obvious that if there is going to be a commission it must include all race groups. This is something I have already told the people who interviewed me, because the Whites certainly cannot plan to devise abortion legislation for the Blacks, Coloureds and Indians. It is time they also came along and helped us to plan it for them.

Hear, hear!

The hon. member also spoke about fluoridation. He was, however, cut short; so I do not know whether he is in favour of it or against it. I will therefore not reply to that.

*I should like to thank the hon. member for Winburg for the lance which he broke for the pharmaceutical industry. I think the hon. member raised a very important and interesting point. He said the pharmacist should be restored to the position he occupied in years gone by. At one stage he was everyone’s friend. If a person had a headache, he walked into the pharmacy and the pharmacist gave him a pill. If a child cut his finger and the doctor was not available, the pharmacist bandaged the finger after disinfecting the wound. The pharmacist was part of the health team. He must, says that hon. member, be restored as an active member of the health team. My medical colleagues can look at me askance if they like, but who knows more about medicine: The pharmacist or my medical colleagues and I? The first bottle of medicine which I dispensed when I began to practice—I am not ashamed to say this— exploded. It took me days to remove the stain from the ceiling. [Interjections.] This happens because I mixed two ingredients which should never have been mixed. However, I thought it would have a very good effect. [Interjections.] The doctor does not have that basic knowledge. The pharmacist receives four years training in his specific direction. If one wants an opinion on a certain kind of medicine, one should ask a pharmacist. It can even happen that the doctor writes out an incorrect prescription. He can prescribe two chemicals which do not belong in the same bottle. In that case the pharmacist must have the right to refer it back to him and to tell him that these two chemicals cannot be mixed because it is dangerous. Any doctor would welcome that.

As far as the pharmacist is concerned, great progress has already been made. There is already a pharmaceutical board which is going to take over the educational requirements and disciplinary requirements as far as pharmacists are concerned. I am also in very close contact with the Pharmacists’ Association. I opened their congress the other day, and we appointed their president, Mr. Wally Aronson, to the commission of inquiry into health matters. He is a person who knows the retail pharmacist like the back of his hand. Consequently I think that this profession is receiving the necessary recognition.

I want to thank the hon. member for having raised this matter. He afforded one an opportunity of telling the pharmacists here in this House that we need them badly as part of the health team. One hopes that in time to come one will be able to restore the private enterprise which goes together with this discipline to the pharmacist so that he can regain his former position. We train these people very well. There are strict qualifications, indeed so strict that the technikons will now have to liase with the universities, just as the teachers’ training colleges have to do. One cannot in the next few years give the pharmacist an inferior training. If one wishes to train pharmacists better, one must train them in such a way that one is not training them for another country, but so that one can use them in the health team in South Africa.

I should like to thank all the hon. members who participated in the health part of the debate very clearly for their contributions. It is a privilege for me to be involved with this directorate. It is a well organized one, and with the addition of welfare and pensions I am certain that we will, after the teething troubles are over, work together very well as a team. I hope that the other debates will also be conducted in the same good spirit. We had our disagreements and our little jokes and I hope that at least we will not, as far as health is concerned, be angry with one another at the end of the debate.

Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. the Minister for the answers he has given in the debate on health matters. We do appreciate the positive steps that have been taken in various directions. It is not, however, my intention to pursue those matters. As the hon. the Minister has indicated, we now move on to the other part of his portfolio, viz. Welfare and Pensions.

I want to refer immediately to social pensions and to say at the beginning that there exists a great deal of dissatisfaction amongst pensioners today. If a referendum were to be held, to my mind it would prove that 90% of pensioners in South Africa are unhappy about their social pensions. The first complaint one gets is that an increase of R12 does not even cover the rate of inflation, which is around 14,2% today. Secondly, the increase is in any event only applicable from 1 October. Pensioners have to wait six months for it. Thirdly, the means test limits have not increased commensurate with the cost-price index since 1972, when it stood at 11,2%. Fourthly, pensioners simply cannot survive on R109 per month, and unfortunately for many it is their only source of income. Fifthly, the bonus of R30 given to them is, when one analyzes it, only R2,50 per month, which, in the circumstances, is also negligible. Sixthly, the value of the rand is not what it was. We have failed to adjust ourselves to that fact. In any event, there should be an automatic review on 1 October 1980. I want to ask the hon. the Minister what happens in respect of all the pensions that are pending at the moment and which require adjustment because of the new limits imposed by the means test. Is the department going to reconsider every single application to see whether the applicants are entitled to the increased benefits if they are not on the maximum or will it be left to the pensioners to apply to have their pensions reviewed in view of the increases to which I have referred? I rather think it will be the latter, in which event I think pensioners should be warned that, if, because of the increases that have been announced, they might be affected, they should ask for their pensions to be reviewed. The next matter I want to raise is that a pensioner should be entitled to cede his pension. Whereas certain protection is required and the law does not allow a pension to be ceded, they in actual fact sign powers of attorney, particularly in favour of institutions. So to all intents and purposes they do not even see their pensions, because the pensions go straight to these institutions.

Pensions should be the same for all races. The policy of the Government, as stated sometime ago, is to narrow the gap, but if one looks at this one finds that in 1977 the gap was R26,50 and in 1978 it had widened to R30,25. In 1979 the gap had widened even further to R43 and now in 1980 the gap is R47. So, in fact, the gap between the Whites, Coloured and Indians has widened instead of being narrowed. There is a petition in circulation throughout the country in which people express their concern at the plight of pensioners and in which the hon. the Minister of Health, Welfare and Pensions is requested, firstly, to introduce a national contributory pension scheme; secondly, to abolish the means test for old age and war veterans pensions; thirdly, to couple old age and war veterans pensions to the cost of living index to protect pensioners from the ravages of inflation and a lowering of their living standards and, fourthly, to take steps towards equallizing the pensions paid to pensioners of the various race groups. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that at present approximately 22 000 people throughout South Africa have signed that petition. [Interjections.]

Is that a private petition? [Interjections.]

I think that in the circumstances the pensioners need a body to represent them, to explain their difficulties and to tell them how to solve their problems, because they seem to have no one to really represent them. I think the increases should be realistic. I think the increase of R12 for social pensioners should be at least R35. The attendants’ allowance has been increased by R5 to R15. Can the hon. the Minister, or anyone else, tell me where one can get a full-time attendant for R15 a month? Surely this figure should be at least R25 per month. This brings me to the means test limit. The maximum means limit of R34 400 has been increased to R34 800. In the present situation that figure should be at least R65 000, and the maximum income limit, which has been increased from R984 to R1 392 should, on today’s figures, be at least R1 800 or R150 per month. Pensions should also be coupled to the cost of living index.

We accept that in reality one cannot just abolish the means test. It is not our suggestion that this should be done on its own, unless it is accompanied by a national contributory pension scheme. An interdepartmental committee made certain findings which we have previously discussed in this House. It recommended that all economically active people who do not belong to any pension fund or scheme, or who belongs to funds or schemes, whose benefits do not at least equal those of the proposed South African pension scheme, should become members of the scheme. They also refer to occupational pension funds or schemes and to the transferability of pension rights. I think we agree to this in principle in the House and I think we should try to implement these recommendations.

Existing pension schemes should not be interfered with. It should not be the intention to interfere with pension schemes which are in existence for employees of firms. They should be allowed to continue as they are doing. In making this suggestion for a national contributory pension scheme, it is not the intention that all those pension funds should be nationalized either. What we are looking for is that all employable people should, during their time of employment, be members of a pension fund to which they contribute, and as a right they should be entitled to their pensions when they reach a pensionable age. Naturally, those people who are not employable would then fall under the umbrella of what we are proposing, which is no means test. They are not members of any pension fund and therefore they would be free to get their pensions. Certain anomalies exist as far as existing pension schemes are concerned, and the hon. member for Edenvale will touch on those. I think we all agree that the department’s present system of implementing and administering pension schemes is indeed complicated, and if we could establish a national contributory pension scheme and bring about the abolition of the means test we would save the department a lot of administrative work. We would also remove a lot of misunderstanding on the part of the public, and the complete lack of understanding of the difficult way this work is administered. All this can be eliminated.

In actual fact what we are proposing is that the scheme itself must be phased out. If there are complications—and all of this must perhaps be put together into something more meaningful—then, under the circumstances, we call upon the hon. the Minister to appoint a commission of inquiry to consider all the pros and cons of such a complete change, to which I have referred as best I could in the short space of time at my disposal. The aim would be to resolve the difficulties, to adopt a realistic approach and perhaps even to revise the policy which the hon. the Minister’s predecessor announced last year, namely that this is not a welfare State and that the pension should not be the only source of income but merely a supplement to one’s income. Unfortunately, however, as I have stated, there are many people who have no other source of income. If we are in fact going to bring about these changes, there would be no necessity for referring to South Africa as a welfare State. On the question of a welfare State, I think it is quite clear that, since we do pay a certain amount in pensions, we are, to a certain extent, a welfare State. The only question is to what extent we are prepared to extend that welfare State. I think the way to solve the problem is—and I call upon the hon. the Minister to do so—to appoint a commission of inquiry to consider the pros and cons and all the aspects of social pensions so that we can bring about some form of permanent solution, even if it is to be phased in over a period of time, so that we will have a realistic approach to the whole matter.

There are one or two other small matters to which I can refer later in the debate. In the minute or two at my disposal I merely mention in passing that in the granting of pensions, an additional amount of pension is available as far as a widow, a widower, a single or a divorced person and a deserted person are concerned. This involves an additional R120 per annum. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether this amount is in any way affected, because, as far as I can see, it is not affected. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Hillbrow dealt for the most part with the symptoms of certain problems, and in the course of my speech I hope to deal with their causes. In the second place I just want to refer to the petition to which the hon. member referred. I think the Government has been investigating these matters for a long time now and I am sure the hon. the Minister will furnish a reply in respect of that petition at an appropriate time.

Mr. Chairman, allow me, on behalf of this side of the House, to convey our gratitude and appreciation to the new Deputy Director of Welfare and Pensions, and to thank him for the friendly way in which he received us and dealt with matters concerning our constituencies, particularly as far as pension matters are concerned.

I should like to discuss a few ideas concerning a matter which is very dear to me, viz. the correlation between inflation on the one hand and social problems on the other. The cancer of inflation which the West is suffering from, has penetrated to the innermost cells of society. The real value of John Citizen’s money is steadily dropping. It is simply impossible to afford today’s goods and services with yesterday’s money. Consequently inflation causes one to be poorer today than yesterday. One would thus be justified in asking the question: What exactly is inflation? In effect this means that every monetary unit can buy less tomorrow than it could yesterday. We must then ask what is the fundamental cause of inflation. I would say, reducing it to two points, that it concerns too much inferior money in circulation on the one hand, and insufficient productivity and a stream of high wage demands on the other. If I were to evaluate the fundamental cause of inflation within society, I would put it in a nutshell and say that it is a characteristic present in all of us, viz. greed—to get something for nothing. This, in my opinion, is the crux of the whole inflation problem, if we want to put it in a nutshell. The effects of inflation go far deeper than merely the economic effects. Its effect is most profound in the sphere of welfare. The department is the silent witness of those who are hardest hit by inflation, viz. the poor and the aged, the unemployed and the defenceless.

When the electricity account continues to rise in winter, it is in the first place the aged and the freezing children who feel it most. Inflation hits hardest where arthritis, child blood and cold are together in one room. It also hits hardest in the spheres of housing and foodstuffs. I want to say this evening that to be thrifty is a wonderful virtue, but inflation demoralizes this virtue, because tried and tested values of hard work and thrift have to make place for a spirit of speculation and opportunism. The temporary winner is the one who is first at the gold, the land, or whatever the bonanza may be. If one looks carefully, one sees that nowadays the best investments are gold, silver, art and antiques. However, these investments are counterproductive. They create few employment opportunities. Nor do they contribute to the improvement of the general welfare of the standard of living of our population. Inflation indeed dampens constructive growth, which literally means poverty for more people. Inflation is in actual fact a disease of society. If we look at history, we see very clearly that during certain periods in which inflation was at its height, such as during the Roman age and at other times, as well as during the period just before the Second World War, a radical collapse of the value systems and structures of that civilization occurred together with the inflation. It has been the cause of the collapse of many civilizations, because social life, family life and moral life were affected. The result was that divorce was rampant, the birth rate dropped to zero and “porno”, “disco” and these things flourished. Women and mothers are compelled to enter the labour market because there are not enough men to do the work. The education and culture of their children suffer as a result. This paints a bleak picture of the department’s possible future sphere of work. I have tried to indicate briefly what evils can follow in the spoor of inflation, and I have also attempted to issue a warning against the urgent social dangers which could come to the fore.

However, I now want to conclude by making a few positive remarks. I want to congratulate the Government this evening when I refer to the other side of the coin. In extremely difficult circumstances, against the grain of the whole society of the Western world, we are maintaining a growth rate of almost 5%, and we are capable of forcing the inflation rate down to below 14%, and the Government deserves praise for its sound financial policy. Furthermore the Government also deserves praise for its sound labour policy. In the third place the Government deserves praise for its sound welfare policy.

I just want to dwell on that for a brief moment. The establishment of a national, compulsory contributory pension scheme for every worker, which we envisage—I also referred to the petition just now—the prospect of making pensions transferable, and the fact that the private sector is being involved in this process, is what I want to describe this evening as a sound welfare policy. We must prevent our people from wittingly becoming indigent elderly people who are going to be a burden to the State and the taxpayer. Every individual must look after his own pension requirements and we must instil this attitude in our people. My request is that the Government must protect the people against their own financial stubbornness, but that the Government must also ensure that the systems are set in operation to protect pensions against inflation and to resist any socialization process by which the State instead of the individual eventually has to bear the responsibility for the individual’s old age.

I trust that I have clearly stated my concern about the influence of inflation as a welfare problem in society and my view on future pension matters.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Brits has basically dealt with the effects of inflation on pensions. It certainly has a disastrous effect on persons who have made provision for the time when they will be unable to continue with employment. Indeed, even as far as private pension schemes are concerned, a tremendous problem is experienced in finding ways and means whereby an escalation in the pension and retirement benefits can be brought about which can be classified as being, to even the slightest degree, commensurate with the present rate of inflation of between 13% and 14%. It is a very serious problem. It is a great pity, too, that the Government has taken so long before amending the means test in this regard, because many of those persons who have made provision for their old age, now find that that provision is hopelessly inadequate as a result of inflation and that they have to find some other means of support. Consequently the relaxation of the means test that was announced in the budget is indeed to be most heartily welcomed. I hope the hon. the Minister will, during the course of this debate on this Vote, give some details concerning the publication of the new, revised means test which is taking into account the new free income limit and the free asset limit which is increased by R400, that is allowed. I understand that a formula is to be introduced, but I want to say that it would be of great assistance to many people if they can obtain further information in regard to the overall implementation of this new means test and the new basis on which it will be calculated. There are many people who are unaware of what they are entitled to. I believe that those persons are entitled to know what the provisions are so that they themselves can, where possible, ascertain whether they are entitled to receive any benefits at all, particularly as far as social pensions are concerned.

Another aspect to which I want to refer is the question of the insecurity that exists today amongst many old people. I think that this is perhaps the greatest problem facing many old people today. This problem is linked with the question of inflation and with various other aspects, such as the decrease in the interest rates which has resulted in a decrease in income. These people have to meet the increase in inflation, but they do not have sufficient funds to meet that increase, and this is aggravated by a drop in interest rates.

Another aspect to which I want to refer is the question of accommodation. If people find that their expenditure is exceeding their income, they somehow have to find alternative accommodation. The insecurity of many of these people has been aggravated by the phasing out of rent control. Some of them do not qualify for social pensions. Some are private pensioners, some are civil pensioners and some are Railway pensioners. There are also those who are just living on incomes derived from their investments. However, these people are faced with an increase in rent, with the phasing out of rent control and with a situation in which properties and flats will be sold under sectional title, as a result of which they will lose that security and feeling of being protected that they have had in the past.

All that protection, where it has been extended, is now to be limited and continued for a limited period. It all adds to the situation where insecurity today is perhaps one of the major factors facing many of these people who really have made provision for their old age, provision which is now proving to be absolutely inadequate.

I refer now to old-age homes. We in South Africa certainly do not want to create a situation where a large number of our older people and senior citizens have no alternative but to give up their homes, sell their houses, give up their flats and move into old-age homes. As far as the major centres are concerned, many of the waiting lists for old-age homes there are already closed and so one cannot gain admission to them. The demand far exceeds the supply. I therefore ask the hon. the Minister whether his department, obviously with the co-operation of the welfare organizations, is gearing itself to meet the additional demand, which will further increase with the phasing out of rent control and the further aggravation of the accommodation problem. Unless the hon. the Minister’s department as well as the Department of Community Development are able to assist these welfare organizations to purchase existing buildings and provide funds whereby those buildings can be utilized and altered for the purposes of providing accommodation for senior citizens, we are going to face a very serious situation. We know that the position as far as the subsidization of old-age homes is concerned is one which has caused much concern. Indeed, some of these homes have been rather loath to increase their accommodation because they feel that it will only increase the liabilities that they have and the loss they are showing so that they are unable to meet their financial commitments. I refer particularly to the application of the formula to determine the subsidization of these homes, whereby smaller homes, particularly those under category B which cater for the middle category of social pensioners, find it tremendously difficult to meet their expenditure. I know that representations have been made to the department and to the hon. the Minister’s predecessor in order to express concern at the application of that formula.

One welcomes the fact that the financial position of the country permits the alleviation of some groups’ circumstances. The increase of R12 a month which will be given to White social pensioners—we are dealing today with White social pensioners—from 1 October is naturally welcomed. However, as the hon. member for Hillbrow indicated, there are a number who are most concerned that they have to wait until October. There are 12 months from 1 October until October 1981, so it is not really correct to say that they have to wait an additional six months. While the increase was announced during March, there can be an acceleration in the cost of living and the rate of inflation so that by the time the pensioners receive their increase it will not really be commensurate with the position as it stood at the time when the increase was announced. So I do hope the hon. the Minister can find some way of approaching the hon. the Minister of Finance to see whether this matter cannot be adjusted.

We know that in the month of May a bonus was announced and I am sure pensioners are very grateful for that. However, does this mean that the bonus granted at Christmas in 1979 is not going to be forthcoming? I sincerely hope that that will not be the situation, because many of these people require that money urgently. Many found that the windfall which came at the end of November was of tremendous assistance. So I do hope that, if the hon. the Minister is able to do so, he will be in a position to persuade the hon. the Minister of Finance to allocate any such surplus funds as might be available, to the hon. the Minister of Health, Welfare and Pensions to ensure that the Christmas bonus will again be granted in December.

There are other aspects. We know that the revised means test could be of benefit to some people. It could mean that after 1 October some people, who fail to qualify at present, might indeed qualify. Obviously, that would be an improvement. There are only two groups who are not subject to the means test for social pensions, namely persons who have reached 100 years of age …

Not long to go, Helen.

… and persons who served in the Anglo-Boer War. I think the hon. the Minister should look again at this situation, if sufficient funds are available. I believe the time has come to revise these figures. It is true though that some people are born optimists. I remember an elderly gentleman asking me whether I was sure he would have to wait until he was 100 years old, and when I said he would indeed have to wait until then, he replied: “Well, I am 93 years now; only seven years to wait.” No doubt, he will be in a queue waiting for his pension. I do believe, however, that the time has come that that figure can be reduced to at least 90 years of age so that people who are over 90 years old can qualify for an old-age pension without being subjected to a means test. For those of them who are war veterans … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, we have already discussed here this evening a considerable number of groups of people in the medical community and in health service professions. However, the one group I want to discuss this evening is that in the nursing profession. This profession is practised mainly by women, because the woman was created with the necessary qualities, characteristics, abilities and feelings to care for and comfort the sick and physically handicapped, as well as the mentally handicapped in our society.

This feeling or instinct of one person to help, to care for and comfort another, has existed since humanity made its appearance on earth. In former times nursing was a religious act, and as Christianity developed, this act of charity began to take place on a more organized basis, under military authority as well.

In 1860 Florence Nightingale established the first school of nursing. She believed that nursing should be a profession, that candidates should be carefully selected and that a well-planned course of instructions should be followed. In other words, nursing is one of the professions which is the same throughout the world in every country, for the distress and the ill are the same in every country. Charity, discipline and knowledge are absolutely essential to every nurse, since these qualities form an integrated unit in her make-up as a good nurse.

An hon. member referred here this afternoon to Prof. Charlotte Searle. I most definitely want to differ from this hon. member in what he had to say about her. She is a very fine person, a person who is appreciated in her profession, who is followed, who expresses very fine ideas, who keeps her people together, and who does those things she has to do very gracefully. She is the professor of nursing science at the University of South Africa. Prof. Searle says, inter alia—

With a light step, a smile on their faces, our nurses move through the corridors of hospitals and nursing institutions in their white uniforms, knowing that their patients are seeking from them relief from pain, as well as understanding for their circumstances, love and an interest in their life and problems. It is very important for a sick person to have the interest of someone who knows his problems, his illness, the times in which he is living and his own distress. One’s own distress and discomfort are after all of very great importance to one. The reassurance and the sparkle in the nurse’s eyes also mean a tremendous amount to a sick person; just as much as the reassurance in the eyes of a parent means to his child when danger is threatening. Then the first thing he looks for is his parent’s reaction to that danger. It is exactly the same with a sick person when he or she looks into the eyes of the nurse. The patient seeks faith and confidence from the nurse, and to this end she needs self-control. The next-of-kin seek support and understanding from her to lead them to acceptance. The nurse forgets her own well-being and comfort, knowing that the person with whom she is dealing is so often broken and bewildered. He no longer has any resistance. He is often afraid, very often sensitive and is often emotional as well. This poor person must at times be led again by the nurse to stability, security and wholeness. The nursing profession does not see the human life as an object of barter for money or gain. Fortunately these people have another purpose in mind, another perception, and fortunately they are selflessly rendering a service to humanity.

Because the whole community is served with such empathy by the members of the nursing profession, it is our duty to allot them the place and status which is their due. These people are self-disciplined, people who at times look after their enemies just as they look after their own families, irrespective of social, political, economic, ethnic or religious status. Quite apart from her hard work she constantly has to learn and learn even more to broaden her knowledge, for modern nursing rests on two pillars, scientific ability and social ability. I can say a great deal more, but the time is too short for the many things that could still be said about these fine people in our medical community.

Allow me to mention with acknowledgement the fact that just as the nurse’s life is quiet, effective and correct, so she also acts. My experience of them has been different from that of certain other people. These people have the correct bargaining channels through which they are able to bargain. Furthermore they avail themselves of these correct channels. Unseen and without making a great fuss they are afforded the opportunity of having discussions, even with the Minister if they so wish. The same applies to members of the Nursing Council. They too are people who put their case and do things without doing an injustice to or violating their profession. They raise their problems and act responsibly and graciously. As far as I know—and I am speaking with reference to my 5½ years’ knowledge gained on a hospital board—they receive what they want. Even in the outside world our nursing profession is held in very high esteem. The people in the outside world have very great respect for these people who are rendering such unselfish service.

I should also like to pay tribute to the various choirs. Hon. members who have had the opportunity of hearing a nurses’ choir singing, will realize how really moving this is. A very special word of gratitude should go to the Baragwanath choir which even toured overseas where they aroused very great interest and were accorded very high praise. When they sing, it is something to listen to. We thank everyone in the nursing profession for their great service.

†I want to conclude with the following: Little girls with teddy-bears need nurses; big boys with appendicitis need nurses; doctors, specialists and registrars need nurses; broken arms, broken legs and broken hearts need nurses; bandages, dressings and hospitals need nurses; and some time or other everyone of us needs a nurse.

Mr. Chairman, I was a little bit disappointed that the hon. member for Germiston District left out MP’s when it came to those who need the services of nurses. I think we also sometimes need them. It is, however, not my intention to follow on the points raised by the hon. member for Germiston District. I think all of us are aware of the very important role played by nurses in our community life.

I should like to raise a few points under the question of pensions. There are just a few I can raise in the very limited time available to me. The first relates to the question of the means test and particularly to what I consider to be the bias in the means test against earned income and income from pensions. There seems to be a very strong bias in favour of people who derive income from assets. For example, if one has a look at the tables for December 1979—I accept that they are slightly out of date but, if one adjusts them, I think the argument still holds good—one sees that if a person with assets totalling R22 800, and no other income, was to invest that amount at 9%, which would be the return he could get on a participation mortgage bond at the present time, he would have an income of R2 052 per annum or R171 per month and would still be able to claim a social old-age pension, which from 1 October of this year will be worth R109 per month. This would give him a total income of approximately R280 per month. I have no quarrel with that at all. The point I should, however, like to make is that if a person gets a pension of R117 per month, or R1 404 per annum, from earned income or a pension fund, he gets no social old-age pension at all.

Let me give another example. If a married couple with assets totalling R34 800 invest that money at 9%, they would still be able to claim a social old-age pension of R57 per month each. This would give them a total income of approximately R375 per month. However, if the same people were to receive more than R232 from a pension fund, they would lose out on the social old-age pension completely. Quite clearly, there is a bias in favour of people who have provided for their retirement by accumulating assets or investments against those who try to provide for their retirement through a pension fund. One sees the same situation with the sliding scale which is used in the means test tables. For example, with assets the sliding scale comes in at an amount of R22 400. That is according to the old tables. If one invested that at 9%, one would get an income of R2 016 per annum or R168 per month. In respect of the income portion of the means test one’s pension begins to decline at an amount of R504 per annum.

When we look at the social old-age pension, one of the overriding points we should consider is that the means test should not discourage people from providing for their retirement. Particularly, it should not discourage them from providing for their retirement via a pension fund. At the present time it would appear that we have something like 3,3 million people who belong to pension funds. If one looks at the economically active working population of South Africa of roughly 10 million people, this would suggest that only one-third of the economically active working force of South Africa belong to pension funds. I believe we should in fact be encouraging people to belong to pension funds. I would, however, submit that the means test, particularly with regard to income derived from a pension fund, in fact discourages a lot of people from providing for their retirement via pension funds. If one looks at the table one sees that it is assumed that the interest rate return which one will get on one’s assets is 4% per annum. This may have been realistic 10 or 15 years ago—if in fact it was realistic then—but I think it is totally unrealistic now. I would suggest that when we look at the new means test we should look at a more realistic rate of say 6½% or 7% and adjust the income portion as if the people had invested their assets at say 7%. I think this would bring the income level into line with a reasonable return on the assets and would remove the bias which at present exists against people who receive an income from a pension fund.

The second problem I would like to deal with is the question of a person providing for his own accommodation in institutions which are beginning to develop, like the Flower Foundation and so forth. A person buys a house in a retirement village and then donates that house to the village for use by other people at a later stage. At the present moment this is treated as a donation, but I understand that it will not be valued at more than R9 800. I want to submit that when this provision was made with regard to donations it was, in fact, made for a completely different situation, i.e. that of people donating assets to near family or to children so that they could try to obtain a social old-age pension. I do not think it was meant to cover people who are not only providing their own accommodation, but are in fact going to help society at a later stage. Indeed, I think one of the major problems that we are going to face in South Africa is that of the provision of housing for retired people. I think we should be doing everything we can to encourage people to provide their own accommodation, because if an aged person has his own accommodation he has, in fact, pegged one of his major costs, and that is the cost of accommodation. What is more, we should encourage people to donate their houses to these self-help villages like the Flower Foundation. Consequently I would recommend that a self-occupied house or a donation to a retirement village should not form part of the means test when it comes to the calculation of the assets.

Another point I would like to raise is the question of pensions for people who belong to religious bodies. The present feeling of the department, as far as nuns and such people are concerned, is that where these people live in a community they should not be entitled to a pension. I think this is particularly hard on people who have devoted their lives to helping other people.

I would like to end off with a question to the hon. the Minister. We have heard for some time about the interdepartmental committee report which is coming out on pension funds, and from time to time we have had our appetite whetted by the newspapers speculating about what the provisions are going to be or what they are not going to be. I wonder whether the hon. the Minister could give us some sort of indication of when this report will be available, because I think it is going to be particularly significant to the whole of the South African pension fund industry and, in fact, to the whole South African life insurance industry.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to say something about what is known as the ordinary old-age pension, and I want to take a look at the history of the matter. I assure hon. members that there are no records showing that Jan van Riebeeck, the British settlers or any group or Government which came to this country, brought a pension scheme along with them. It seems to me as if a social pension scheme is something which was worked out here in our country and came into being here. The first investigations carried out in connection with pensions were, firstly, those carried out by the Jeppe Commission which was appointed in 1916 by the Administrator of the Transvaal. Then, in 1926, the Pienaar Commission was appointed by the Government of the day. The Jeppe Commission, under the chairmanship of one Julius Jeppe, seven others and the secretary, J. E. van Velden, were given various terms of reference by the provincial council. One of them read as follows—

This was such a very wide-ranging investigation, including for example schools, technical training, school feeding and farming requirements, and resulted in upliftment in so many fields, that pensions as such did not benefit much from the investigation. However, public benevolence was practised by the more well-to-do people and charitable organizations throughout the country are still doing fine and wonderful work without being afforded full recognition for their work. For example, during the previous financial year these organizations collected R150 million and paid it directly into charity work. This represents approximately 30% of all funds spent on lesser privileged Whites.

The following commission was appointed in 1926. Two very well-known figures signed the terms of reference, viz. the Earl of Athlone, the Governor-General, and N. C. Havenga, the then Minister of Finance. Three well-known people signed as commissioners, namely Mr. Barend Pienaar, who acted as chairman, Mr. Patrick Duncan and Mr. Willem Wessel Roux. This commission carried out an in-depth investigation and apart from the many meetings they held in Cape Town, they visited 22 cities in the course of one year, ranging from Cape Town to Barberton, to carry out the necessary investigations. They submitted their second report early in 1928, and it was due to these reports that Act No. 22 of 1928, the Old-Age Pensions Act, was introduced. The qualifying pension age at the time was set at 65 years for both men and women. Incidentally, at the time the age was set at 70 years in many overseas countries. This Act provided that every White person qualified as a pensioner when he received an income of less than £24 per annum. In such a case he was entitled to a pension of £30 per annum. That was the maximum. This means £2 10s. 0d. per month. Although this was not much, even in those times, it did mean a little security for those poor old people. This maximum amount was increased to a maximum of R27 per month in 1962, and in this year’s budget the maximum old-age pension was increased to R109 per month, plus certain housing benefits and also some private income benefits.

Since 1928 there has been a golden thread of compassion and an attitude of “we care”, “ons gee om”, on the part of the State running through this matter of old-age pensions. I now wish to say to all elderly people who receive old-age pensions that the Government does not give them pensions out of mercy, but out of gratitude for their contribution in the past. They have contributed towards building up this country, this nation and the economy of this country. The Nationalist government consists of understanding people.

We are happy about every cent that those elderly people receive and we should like to display a sense of gratitude towards them. We want each of them to enjoy a happy old age and we want to assure them that we regard them as the gems of our society. We know the philosophy of the elderly. We know that each would like to have a secure place to live and something to keep them busy, and would like to know that there is someone who cares about them and knows what they want. For this reason I appeal to the welfare organizations to continue with their good work and to see to it that our elderly people never feel lonely or rejected or fearful in any way, but that they should always be aware that we all take an interest in them. In the local Springs newspaper, namely the Springs Advertiser of 28 March, I read the following—

†I want to say that if Mr. Chilchik is correctly reported, this portion that I have quoted, amounts to a wilful perversion of the truth. It is presented with the intent to mislead and is calculated to commit political extortion in view of the next general election, which he probably expects to take place sooner than I do. I want to add that the instilling of fear in the minds of these wonderful, lovely old people, many of whom I know and some of whom have complained to me, amounts to an unforgivable political crime.

*Why should these old people, these fine old people, be afraid for the future now, in their old age? It is our duty to do just the opposite for these people. We must not make them feel afraid. They wish to live out their twilight years in peace.

During the discussion of the Sectional Titles Amendment Bill I heard the same thing being said in this House. It is said that old people can now no longer afford their increased rent. Subtle allegations were made to the effect that the flat owners would exploit the pensioners. In my opinion these allegations are not only unreasonable and distasteful, but also irresponsible in the extreme.

The PFP represents the very wealthy people in this country. If they were to concentrate more on obtaining the superfluous money of some of these wealthy people and handing it over to the charitable organizations, they would contribute more towards allowing these old people of ours to live in a little more luxury.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.