Mr. Chairman, I claim the privilege of the half hour.

Right at the very beginning of this debate I should like to extend my congratulations to the hon. the Minister, who will be handling this Vote for the first time since he assumed office as Minister of National Education. I confess that I am not sure whether I should actually sympathize with him against the background of recent events, or whether I should congratulate him. Nevertheless, I congratulate him. I should also like to congratulate Dr. Van Wyk, the newly appointed Director-General of the Department of National Education. I wish him well in his task. It is a very difficult task, and we look forward to working very closely with him.

Thirdly, by way of introduction, I should like to make only a very brief comment at this stage on the annual report of the department. This is a colossal undertaking, full of very interesting facts and details. The department obviously has to be congratulated in getting this report out before the discussion of this Vote. In this they are setting a good example to some other departments.

Recent events demonstrate beyond doubt that education as a whole in South Africa is in a crisis situation. Ever since the introduction of Bantu education, and despite the improvements since then, Blacks have continued and still continue to express strong and often bitter dissatisfaction. Secondly, the far-reaching Coloured schools boycott underlines their own deeply felt grievances. Unfortunately we also have to add now that all is not well in White education either. There has been an unhappy and an unhealthy breakdown between White teachers and the Government.

It seems to me, as one considers the whole trend in education, that it is characteristic of the Government that they practise what I can only describe as a kind of brinkmanship. In other words, they wait until the situation has reached well-nigh crisis proportions before they act. It is almost as if they are reckless enough to practise a kind of political roulette. It is ironic that in our discussion today of what is termed national education, we are restricted to talking about education for Whites. I believe that we would be singularly insensitive, even stupid, if we were to ignore the shadow of Black and Coloured grievances which hang over us like an ominous cloud.

Altogether all is not well on the education front in South Africa. In the last six years there have been four Ministers of National Education. One recalls Senator Van der Spuy, Dr. Koornhof and Mr. Cruywagen, and now we have yet another Minister in this very important position. In the last five years there has been a steadily increasing spirit of discontent among teachers. They have felt— and I believe with justification—that they have been given a very raw deal. Many words have been spoken about how precious this profession is to South Africa. It has been described as the mother profession, but the mother has been sadly neglected. We have almost turned our backs on those who work so hard and so well for the whole of South Africa.

[Inaudible.]

The facts, of course, are always resisted by that hon. Minister. He prefers to live in his world of fantasy, so I shall leave him there. In 1976 the then Minister of National Education, Dr. Piet Koornhof, on the one hand—let us be fair—breathed new life and new hope into the teaching profession, as usual liberally sprinkled with promises. At the time he intimated that as a part of a “new deal”— that was the wording used—the teaching profession was to be singled out for special consideration with respect to salaries and other conditions of service. That this has not happened—I certainly believe it has not happened—is cause for grave and justified dissatisfaction amongst teachers throughout the land. As one looks at all the various statistics—and of course one could spend a great deal of one’s time looking at them— there can be no doubt whatsoever that on average the majority of male teachers have received about 13,4% and women teachers about 12,7%. One of the factors that has been spelt out by the Government is that the Government has tried to respond to the needs and demands of the teachers but that there simply is not enough money to do anything more at this time. This is very interesting, because when the controversy was at its height, there was an advertisement advertising the post of senior administrative officer for the East Rand Administration Board. The salary offered was R11 160, increasing to R14 400. The qualifications for the job were Std. 10 plus eight years of working experience. In other words, the post was open to anyone of about 26 years old who had not been to a training college or university but had gone straight to work after having passed Std. 10. In contrast, a teacher with three years post-matric training is to receive, under the new scales, a paltry R5 500, increasing to R8 550. If one views this in the light of the fact that in this country the Government last year spent in excess of R10 000 million, one is forced to ask: Where are our priorities?

Teachers are not, of course, the only ones affected. There are people in several other professions who have been complaining, but we are now dealing with national education. As the salary scales show, the prime purpose of this Government is to make absolutely sure that it maintains the structure of separate development or apartheid. It seems to me that the education of the nation, being a secondary purpose, commands less attention and less money. [Interjections.]

Do you want mixed education?

The fact of the matter is that teachers themselves, who in many ways have sometimes been the backbone supporting the Government, had better make up their minds. They cannot have decent salaries and conditions of service as well as apartheid.

That is right.

We cannot afford both. [Interjections.] If the teachers are going to decide, they had better make that decision right now. [Interjections.] In 1979, when teachers were left out, the then Minister, Mr. Cruywagen, to his credit publicly supported the teachers. I must say that it consequently came as no surprise to any of us that he soon left that post and was dumped. Now we have another Minister of National Education.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member a question?

No, I do not have the time. Now we have another Minister of National Education. It is clear that his sympathy lies with the teachers, because in his dealings with them he has been scrupulously fair. This is certainly the information I have got from the teachers themselves. In spite of that, my charge against the hon. the Minister is that he does not seem to be in control of his own department. I shall try to motivate that. I believe that he has allowed the hon. the Prime Minister and the hon. the Minister of Finance to interfere and meddle in and to bedevil the teaching profession and the Department of National Education. I want to highlight that and I want to make specific reference to the so-called mysterious document which appeared. Despite the questions I have put in the House to the hon. the Minister of National Education and to the hon. the Prime Minister, there is still no satisfactory explanation. The hon. the Prime Minister’s reply in particular was, I believe, cynical in the extreme. He must have known that the document of which I spoke in my question referred to the document which has caused a great deal of concern and controversy throughout the land. It has been stated by the president of the Federal Teachers’ Association and by numerous leaders in education that it seemed to have been timed deliberately— and I am using their words—to bring the teaching profession into discredit. When I asked about that document, first of all the hon. the Minister of National Education told me and the House that his department knew nothing about it. I accept that, but it seems very strange to me that a Minister of National Education should know nothing about the origins of a document which directly affects the teaching profession. He cannot give us an answer like that and expect us to be satisfied.

When the hon. the Prime Minister replied, first of all he referred to the fact that many documents were prepared and many officials were involved. Then I asked, by way of a question arising out of the hon. the Prime Minister’s answer, whether he or anybody had consulted with the Department of National Education. His reply, which appears in Hansard, was that no one was consulted. I ask again—and obviously I must put the question to the hon. the Minister whose responsibility it ultimately is: Who originated this document and for what purpose? Let us hot have any pussyfooting about this. Let us have a direct, clear and plain answer and get shot of this once and for all so that we can go on to being much more constructive about the development of the teaching profession. [Interjections.] I want to ask the hon. members opposite, who are so concerned, whether they have no concern for the teachers at all. Do they not care about them? [Interjections.] Are they not worried? Do they not worry about a document such as that one?

Then, the hon. the Prime Minister in his reply to me said that, apart from minor discrepancies, the basic document was correct. Now we have a statement in the newspaper which says something quite different. The hon. the Minister, when he heard about the document, repudiated it and described it as “incorrect and unfair” and claimed that his department was not responsible for issuing the document. I hope that he will answer the question. I gather that this must surely have been discussed in the Cabinet. Somebody must know who said: “Let us have this document and distribute it as widely as possible. Let us get it on television, on the radio and in the Press.” Somebody must have decided on that. Who was it? It was not the hon. the Minister. Who did it, then? They must know. You cannot tell me, Sir, that this was not discussed. I gather from a report in this morning’s Burger that the hon. the Minister met with the Federal Council again at 6.30 p.m. I therefore ask again: Was that question raised by them then and, if so, how did the hon. the Minister respond to that question?

We have a further complicating factor, and I quote—

It is said that they made this statement with permission of the Minister and the Prime Minister. I cannot understand how it is possible for an hon. Minister in charge of this department not to know anything about it—and let us accept that he did not know anything about it—and not to institute an inquiry into his own department and amongst his own colleagues immediately and say: “In heaven’s name, who did this? It has put me into a bad situation. I want to know who started it and why.” It seems to me that that would have been a reasonable thing to do, and I hope that the hon. the Minister will reply to me.

I want to say that the hon. the Minister of Finance, who is at the moment not here— and I am not going to dwell on it very long—has also been most unhelpful. Teachers are particularly incensed by his suggestion that protests from the teaching profession are the result, “of a small group of militants”. Once again the idea agitators is dragged in, and yet—and the hon. the Minister will know what I am talking about—I am quite confident that, apart from the officials who have come to him, there have been numerous teachers who individually made special pleas to him. They have certainly come to us, and I am quite sure they have come to many other members in this House. They have legitimate grievances, and the only way in which to resolve that is to deal with them and not to describe them as a bunch of militants—I am not saying that this hon. Minister described them in that way—who are stirring up the teaching profession. One does not need to stir them up; they are incensed. The result of the dissension between the teaching profession and the Government and the shabby treatment that this profession has received over the years, will not only affect recruitment, as I believe it already has, perhaps vitally. It will also affect the retention of the best teachers, those who are committed, trained and motivated. They have had enough. Unless they get a square deal, we are going to lose these people. I do not want that to happen, and I know that the hon. the Minister does not want it to happen either. Most of all, apart from the fact that the recruitment and retention of teachers are going to be affected and have been affected, there is an overall negative effect on the morale and motivation of the teaching profession. There are many examples of the effects of the far-reaching shortages already in the profession, in particular in the Transvaal.

If one looks at some of the facts, one sees that the Federal Council recently gave serious consideration to constituting themselves into a trade union. They have not done that so far, but the fact that they even discussed it, suggests how very angry they are. On 16 April this year there were 270 vacant posts in the Transvaal high schools alone. According to my calculations, that means that at some time during each school-day approximately 50 000 pupils sit idle. 24 subjects are involved, and according to the TTA, there is a shortage of 2 500 teachers in English-medium schools. More than 500 high-school teachers are teaching subjects for which they are not properly qualified, and this affects at least 100 000 children. During the last three years the enrolment figures in the faculty of education at the University of the Witwatersrand dropped from 1 000 to 400. One can also look at the resignations. In 1978 1 598 teachers resigned. In 1979 there were 2 137 resignations. There is a shortage of more than 200 mathematics teachers and 300 English teachers in the Transvaal alone. These are real, hard facts. I want to make a plea to the hon. the Minister to regard this situation with the utmost seriousness when he replies. Whilst it is true that the question of salaries have been at the heart of the controversy, I think that this overshadowed some of the other grievances and issues which are at stake. For example, there is a desperate shortage of English-speaking teachers, especially in the Transvaal. This matter has been raised many times. It is difficult to understand why this ought to be the case, but there can be no doubt—and I know that this will be contentious—that the attitude particularly of the Broederbond has largely been responsible for this over the years. [Interjections.] Let me try to motivate this. [Interjections.] Perhaps those hon. members of this House who are also members of the Broederbond will recognize this quotation. Dr. Piet Meyer, former chief of the Broederbond, once spelt out the aim of South Africa’s educational system.

At least he knows what he is chief of, but what are you the chief of?

The hon. the Minister who is now so rowdy must listen to the following and then tell me whether he agrees with it—

Now, who said that? [Interjections.] It was Dr. Piet Meyer. As a direct result of that kind of influence I believe the whole of the teaching profession throughout this country has been effected. There is no doubt in my own mind that until this kind of attitude is finally rooted out of this country …

What are you quoting from?

From what Dr. Piet Meyer said. I know that it is a secret document and I am not prepared to disclose my sources, but I will give the hon. member the quotation. The hon. member for Rissik must know about this quotation … [Interjections.] … or else he is not a member of the Broederbond. If the hon. member is not a member of the Broederbond, then perhaps he could see me afterwards and I will tell him about it. [Interjections.] A lot of his colleagues will also be able to help him. [Interjections.] As long as this attitude continues …

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member a question?

No. I do not have time for questions. While this continues, White education will continue to limp along and become as divisive as other forms of ethnic grouping in education which are imposed by the central Government. I want to say immediately that one of the consolations of the recent protests is that English-speaking and Afrikaans-speaking teachers have united to express their opposition against the attitude of the Government towards teachers as a whole. I say this is a very good thing for the teaching profession. They have found something on which they can unite, stand together and say that they want a square deal. In this connection I want to make a very strong appeal and I hope it will go out from this House right across the length and breadth of the land. I want to make an appeal to English-speaking young people to consider teaching as a profession. But in order to achieve that I must also make an appeal to the hon. the Minister and the Government to institute a commission of inquiry, to be appointed by the State President and based on genuine educational criteria, which will lead to the resolution of the education crisis which faces us today. I know the hon. the Minister has met with the provincial Administrators. I understand this meeting took place on 12 May. I would like the hon. the Minister to tell us, if he can, what the result of that discussion was. I assume that it must also have been discussed by the Cabinet, the institution of an inquiry. I should like to hear the hon. the Minister’s comments in that regard. I hope that such an inquiry will be instituted without delay and that it will have short-term and long-term objectives. In the short term it should meet the immediate grievances of the White teachers who have lodged this objection in particular. I want to say again, as I have said before in this House, that I hope—the hon. the Prime Minister himself is on record as saying that whilst it is not his personal view, he is prepared to look at this with an open mind—that such an inquiry will look at the whole of education in South Africa. One cannot do it any longer in isolation. I plead for this kind of inquiry to take place and that the teaching profession, the private sector and even politicians should be represented on it. When we met as a Select Committee last year on Black education, while we did not always agree, I nevertheless believe that we achieved a great deal because we had a sharing of minds there. I believe we must make use of all the possible resources available in order to try to solve what I believe is an educational crisis in South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, fortunately I am able to agree with two points made by the hon. member for Pinelands. In the first place I want to join him in congratulating Dr. Van Wyk on his appointment as Director-General in the Department of National Education. My best wishes to him. The second point with which I am able to agree, is where he congratulates the department on and thanks it for a very thorough and excellent report.

At one stage the hon. member for Pinelands wandered off completely from the Vote. He dragged another subject into this discussion. However, I want to try to be more positive. In spite of the Federal Council’s request that this issue be kept out of the public arena, the hon. member attacked the Government again.

It is our responsibility.

If there are two things that have to be avoided at this stage, they are, firstly, not to tread on any toes, no matter whose toes they are, for that would only aggravate matters even further. In the second place expectations which cannot perhaps be met must not be created. In any event the hon. Opposition is in no position to carry out promises which it makes even by implication. Suppose a miracle were to have happened and the hon. member for Pinelands were now the Minister in question. I wonder what would have happened. [Interjections.]

At least I would know which documents came from my department.

Surely it remains the Government’s responsibility to try to find a solution in the midst of so many problem situations. There is no hon. member in this Committee—and I know what I am talking about—who does not regard the extremely sensitive situation in education today as a serious matter. To have confrontation in one’s own ranks and with the Government is to head for one’s eventual downfall. It is the desire of all of us that a solution should be found in order to keep our teachers in this fine and commendable profession in this way, and to attract people of quality to this profession, people who also instruct through the living example they set so that the status of the profession may once again come into its own in every respect.

I should like to pay tribute and convey my gratitude to that large group of teachers who have remained calm under all circumstances and who are waiting patiently while they carry on with a great and responsible task without making irresponsible statements or being guilty of undisciplined and uneducational conduct. Furthermore, I want to pay tribute to the hon. the Minister who has been under great pressure since his appointment. I want to thank him for his patience in listening and in working in the belief that the problems are not insurmountable. I thank him for his absolute dedication. He also listened very patiently to hon. members on this side of the Committee when we discussed our problems with him. A word of gratitude and appreciation to the hon. the Prime Minister is not out of place either. In the midst of a rationalization programme, urgent international and sensitive internal matters, he too made time available for an interview with the Federal Council. Moreover, he listened to the hon. the Minister and to us and held discussions with persons and bodies involved in the matter. There were intensive discussions which took up a great deal of his time. We thank him sincerely for that.

The fact of the matter is and remains that we are all dealing with an extremely problematical and delicate situation, one which we should like to see solved for the sake of our future. Of the person who disputes this it may be said that there is none so blind as he who will not see and none so deaf as he who will not hear; he is being wilful. He who maintains that the teachers do not have a case to be made out, to whatever side, is living far from reality. He who tries to imply that the Government is unsympathetic towards the profession, brings discredit upon the truth. He who thinks that this is a simple matter to be solved merely by and only by increasing salaries, is living in a fool’s paradise. He who closes his eyes to the world spirit of dissatisfaction, discontentment, frustration and even indisciplinedness, is not living in this world.

There is one consolation and hope which is still alive and that is that the channels of dialogue are still open for negotiation between the Federal Council of Teachers’ Associations, the hon. the Minister and the Government.

The proposed commission which is to be appointed to investigate and evaluate the position of the teaching profession in the national set-up is a welcome step in the right direction. The only possibility of finding a solution lies in this commission and my earnest prayer is that it will in fact be possible to find a solution. There are, of course, certain important matters which will have to be borne in mind in this appointment, viz. the stature of the commission, the composition of the commission—it will have to be as wide as possible over the whole spectrum of the national set-up and be composed of competent people. The commission’s terms of reference are just as important. There will have to be an in-depth investigation over the whole spectrum of education which will require great circumspection. In its considerations the commission will have to discern and take into account the priorities of the State. There will have to be points of link up with the investigation into the “Manpower 2000” project. Once this investigation has been completed and the evaluation and the recommendations arising from it have been made, all persons involved in it will have to fall in with, associate themselves with and accept them, and they will have to be implemented.

There are, as I see it, a whole lot of dilemmas which are difficult to solve, if at all, under our specific circumstances, and I would be very pleased if the hon. member for Pinelands would listen to this particular dilemma. How does one solve the problem of a manpower shortage in our particular case? It is a law of life which has been scientifically demonstrated that 4% of the economically active work force of a population have to be in positions of leadership in order to bring about, inter alia, the necessary growth and development in a country’s economy. In the case of our country this applies to a mere 4% of a quarter of the economically active population. This means that there is an exceptional demand for literate people, people with the necessary background to receive further training in managerial and other positions of leadership. The private sector is compelled to try to buy such people by making more attractive offers than the Government is capable of doing and can afford to do in view of its responsibilities and the capacity of its Exchequer. The private sector is in a more advantageous position because it is able to pass its costs onto the consumer, whereas the Government is solely dependent on its tax revenue.

This brings me to the allegation made by certain people that there is no longer any idealism left in our teachers. On the basis on the vast number of advertisements for vacancies for executives and others in our Press, I maintain that there is still idealism to be found among our teachers. Take for example the so-called scarce-subject teachers who remain on as teachers in spite of the attractions outside the profession. They can say farewell to their profession to go to greener pastures.

There is far too much grading in education and this makes the question of salaries extremely difficult. How one is going to solve this, is another question. The question of fragmentation in education will also have to receive serious attention. Education extends from pre-primary school education to the tertiary level, and it extends across the academic and technological levels, and touches on many aspects.

The question of the status of the profession is producing just as many problems. One can single out many aspects of this, but I should just like to emphasize a few of them. The shortage of teachers, a shortage which is closely linked to the manpower shortage, compels teachers to teach subjects for which they have not been properly trained. This is one of the problems as far as the status of teachers is concerned. There are far too few male staff members and this is damaging to the teaching profession in general. The man remains the symbol of authority and the father figure, and as such is indispensable. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I rise to give the hon. member the opportunity to complete his speech.

I want to go on to refer to the question of the salaries of men and women. They are doing equal work. This is another aspect of education which must be investigated.

The question of discipline is another aspect of education which will have to receive serious attention afresh. I do not have the time now to elaborate on the way in which education is suffering because offenders have to be taken to the headmaster’s office to be disciplined, but I do want to say that this has a detrimental effect on the teacher as well as on the child’s approach, even though this may be subconsciously. This could give rise to the teacher’s authority and sound judgment being called in question.

Another problem I want to point out is the red tape teachers have to deal with when they have to take classes. The lack of appreciation for the work being done by the teacher, is another matter to which everyone in this country will have to give serious attention. The only way in which we can do this, is to identify ourselves with the teaching and the education of our youth.

Before I content myself with what I have said, I just want to refer to one more irritating aspect which will have to be examined, i.e. the question of the payment of teachers. Sometimes cheques are received late or rectifications have to be made to cheques, to the annoyance of our teachers.

We must not and may not forget that our enemies are revelling in the possibility of a confrontation between the Government and the teachers, for such a confrontation strikes at the root of our continued existence and the heart of our survival. The onslaught on the foundation of our national economy will therefore be more intense than that on many other spheres in our national life. We must be on our guard against this and we may not fail in this respect. It is one of the aims of our enemies to make our population dissatisfied with and unhappy about our Government and to create mistrust. This is part of psychological warfare which we do not always identify properly.

I have sufficient faith in our Government, our teachers and our people to be convinced of the fact that this extremely difficult situation can still be remedied.

I believe that with the idealism which still prevails among our teachers in that noble profession and with the necessary sympathy on our part—not that there was no sympathy —an agreement could still be reached when the matter is seen in its proper perspective. I am very sure of that. It was a wise step on the part of the hon. the Prime Minister to announce that a commission would be appointed to consider the broad spectrum of education.

I now want to turn to another little matter. I want to thank the hon. the Minister for the purchase of land for the campus of the new technikon here in Cape Town. It was a happy day for me when I heard that land had been bought for this technikon. If a policy of decentralization is going to be followed, this 20 ha which has been set aside will be sufficient, but if this policy is not going to be adopted, then I am afraid that we shall have to re-examine the possibility of more land being made available.

A few years ago I discussed the gifted child in the Committee on this Vote. I am very grateful to have been informed that a commission has been appointed in the Cape to investigate the education and training of the gifted child with a view to allowing him to receive special education. The same applies in the Transvaal. I trust that the results of the investigation will also be positive.

Mr. Chairman, I rise at this early stage with apologies to the chief spokesman of the NRP in particular, and with gratitude to all hon. members who have afforded me the opportunity to take part in the debate at this early stage. I also rise in the earnest hope that I shall succeed in introducing some equilibrium to the further course of the debate. The debate is an important one and, as has already been indicated, other departments, too, will ultimately be affected in the course of the debate.

As far as I know I have never wilfully sought to escape from problem situations, or when justified accusations have been levelled at me. I am sorry that right at the outset of the debate the opportunity was taken to discuss a matter, which, not only at my request, but also at the request of others, could have been left aside to allow time for more fruitful discussions.

I am not evading the problems that occurred with regard to the issuing of a document, whoever it was issued by. Because I believe it is my duty and the duty of everyone to be honest about it, I said that I knew nothing about the document when it was issued. I did not watch the TV presentations on the evening in question and no document was submitted to me, but I heard about it through a news report. The Federal Council asked me to react to a news report. I refused to react to it, because as I said, I do not react to newspaper reports. I do not do so out of disrespect for newspapers, but a newspaper report can contain incorrect words. This is particularly the case when words are not placed within inverted commas. Inferences can of course be mistaken too. Therefore I am unable to react before I know exactly what is stated in a document.

Later I saw a document by chance, but confidentially, and neither at the top nor at the bottom of that document was there a stamp nor was it stated “Statement by … on behalf of … and embargoed” as would be necessary in such a case. I made inquiries and accepted the word of the people in question that they knew nothing about it. I know, as every hon. member knows, that the office of the Prime Minister is where I should have inquired first. I did inquire there and the Secretary to the Prime Minister said that he had no knowledge of such a document. Why did I do that? I have not even told the hon. the Prime Minister yet. I did so because, in the first place, I owe loyalty to the hon. the Prime Minister and to the Cabinet.

Loyalty is foreign to them.

Order! The hon. member for Welkom must withdraw that statement.

Sir, I withdraw it.

If the office of the Prime Minister had issued it and the hon. the Prime Minister had been aware of it, I would have defended the hon. the Prime Minister at all times and would have approached him in all humility to ask him what the reason was. More than once in the past I have asked questions and never once, as is the case with any member of the Cabinet, has the hon. the Prime Minister flinched from protecting people with whom he co-operates in all respects wherever he has considered that mistakes have been made in good faith. If proof is required it can be provided. The other day the hon. the Prime Minister ordered an investigation into a matter concerning a Defence Force document. That investigation was not widely reported in the newspapers. I am not singing a paean of praise of the hon. the Prime Minister. I am merely stating facts. The hon. the Prime Minister set the example by immediately having the mistake with regard to the issuing of the document investigated. However, he did not broadcast people’s names merely for the sake of sensation. Nor did he penalize other people. Of course they were penalized, but in an orderly way and in accordance with orderly administration. When disciplinary measures are taken against people, it can always be done without the people in question needing to feel humiliated and trapped.

†I am quite happy to leave this matter entirely in the hands of the hon. the Prime Minister. I wish the matter would be dropped now—not only at my request. I am going to quote from a Press statement. I met the Federal Council on this issue. They know full well what my point of view in this connection is. They know full well and accepted my word when I stated that the Department of National Education had no knowledge of it whatsoever. I also had the privilege of putting my views and the department’s views on this whole matter in writing. I said I could not agree with the statement as I read it and as it was reported. I am accepting responsibility for saying this and I shall say that again and again. I pointed out the discrepancies which, I believe, did a disservice to the Federal Council and also discredited them. I thought that was unfair.

I put that into writing when I was asked to report on the matter. What more could I do? It was in a statement thereafter, a statement through the Press and through all other channels, and which was made available to the public and the news media, that it was stated explicitly and in full detail that the Federal Council and the Minister were satisfied that the only way in which this matter could be fully resolved, the only way in which the major questions could be fully answered, was by responsible discussions and negotiations round a table and not through the public media. It was of course not a pleasant experience for me. What was reported in Die Burger was done in good faith by my friends from that newspaper. I have no doubt about that. But when anybody picks up a paper and sees a picture of me there with a report of this nature below it, it stands to reason that whoever reads that report will immediately take it for granted that the one responsible for this document is the man whose photograph accompanies the report. I would not even mind that once they accept my bona fides. I am quite happy and the matter is resolved.

The Federal Council went even further. They cancelled a meeting I was due to have with them at Jan Smuts Airport, a meeting arranged at a very late date and in very, very difficult circumstances for me. The same day, just before I left, they cancelled the meeting because they were taking it amiss that I was not prepared to repudiate a Press statement. I attended that meeting. I did not meet them, but I am satisfied that when I had the opportunity of repudiating some of the aspects of the statement through the Press, they immediately accepted my word, after which we met again and discussed the matter in a calm and dignified manner. I should like to thank the Federal Council for the opportunity they gave me, and to the Government through me, of explaining the situation and of resolving the issues which were still outstanding.

What are we getting at? We have been unable to see the wood for the trees. Every now and then something new crops up which is made into a major issue. I am concerned with the welfare of all the children in South Africa. There are major problems to be solved, and many of those problems were pointed out by the hon. member for Hercules. I am not going to waste my time trying to establish where a document comes from if I am certain that those people will be happy if I give my attention to the matter in due course. I am not prepared, however, to pursue that matter in this House today, and I have the greatest regard for this House.

I should like to return now to the document issued after the meeting I had with the Federal Council, because after all the Federal Council, and not I or any other hon. member of this House, represent the teachers of this country. This statement was jointly issued by the Federal Council and by me and reads as follows—

With their permission I will show this document to anyone who wants to see it. It is not in my handwriting. It was drawn up by an official of the Federal Council and an official of my department. I took no part.

When was this?

The day before issuing this. We agreed that all outstanding matters would be discussed by way of correspondence, if necessary channelled through the office of the Prime Minister, seeing that he had dealt with the matter. If I am instructed to deal with it further, however, I shall do so, but I am going to try to see the wood and not the trees. That is my duty.

Mr. Chairman, am I to understand from the hon. the Minister that he is saying that the document originated not from his department, but from the office of the hon. the Prime Minister?

I did not say that. I repeat that. I am satisfied. Whatever happens to me anywhere along the line, at all times I accept the word of the hon. the Prime Minister, and he stated that he knew nothing about it. [Interjections.]

Where did you hear that gossip? You thrive on gossip. You are a priest who thrives on gossip.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister, as we sit here this afternoon, whether he does or does not know where that document originated?

I can say that someone wanted to give me that information, but the person wanted to give it to me confidentially. He said he would give me the name, but that I had to give him my word of honour that I would not mention the name. I told him that in that case I did not want to know the name. [Interjections.]

But you are the Minister. You should know.

I am the Minister, yes, and I accept responsibility. If this document has done damage, irreparable harm, I will follow it up. It is certainly my duty to do so. I met these people personally, however, at a full council meeting, and they asked for the matter to rest there and for all outstanding problems to be resolved through correspondence. Now I should like to put a question. The hon. member can reply by merely nodding or shaking his head. Is the hon. member for Pinelands prepared to meet the request of the Federal Council? It is not my request.

Yes, of course I am.

Well, then I appeal to him, and to other hon. members, please not to bedevil relations further, because there is more than enough trouble already.

I did not issue the document.

In passing may I just refer to another statement made by the hon. member. We are as far apart from each other as the east is from the west …

That is not true.

… in our political views. I know, however, that he would not intentionally distort the truth, not ever. I will never believe it of him. He did, however, quote from an article in Die Burger this morning, a respected paper, but this was the greatest nonsense on earth.

I have always thought it was a nonsense paper.

A report appeared stating that I had met with the Federal Council last night. I worked late, but I never had such a meeting with the Federal Council. Yet such a report appears this morning in Die Burger, printed in all good faith. But it is wrong. Why should I make an issue of it? Why should I make an issue out of a report that was mentioned, not by me, but by the hon. member?

I am very glad you have told us now.

Yes, I am telling him now. That is the attitude I am adopting in this whole matter. I too can say a few things, but I am not going to do so. There is something I must say, however. In my dealing with the Federal Council, with all the representatives of the teaching profession—and I am not only referring to the secondary and primary levels, but to the whole teaching profession in this country—I have had only the happiest of relations, and I am not going to have that bedevilled by making utterances that would embarrass them in any way. I promised them that I would not be issuing statements, and I have not issued any. I want to confess this afternoon, however, that I made one mistake —not only one, but in fact several—in my life as a politician. Let me refer to one of the biggest mistakes I made. I was asked to take part in a television programme. Initially I refused. Although my colleagues have never pointed a finger at me, I know that I embarrassed my Government and my party by eventually taking part in that television programme. But I could not foresee what was going to happen there. I am saying today that I did not know that there would be ghost voices on that television programme. I am, however, not pointing fingers. I could have quarrelled about it. I could have done a few things about that programme. Conclusions were drawn after I had left the interview. I can say a few more things about that, but I am not going to do it, because I do not want to bedevil relations between the teaching profession and myself. I have been given a job to do, under difficult circumstances, for people the country needs desperately, and our country will need them, everyone of them, in the years to come. I shall do my level best, in the time that is given me, at least to cope with problems and try to solve them in the long-term with the assistance of those genuinely interested, as I know the hon. the member is, in the welfare of the country.

The position is difficult. It is difficult because the position of South Africa is unique in the educational field.

*I want to point out a few things to hon. members. Do we always bear in mind—I myself have not always been aware of this—that we in the Republic are dealing here, inter alia, with seven Black nations; not with one Black Power, but with seven Black nations? Do we consider that, when we talk about one department for all education? Do we realize that textbooks must be made available, particularly for grades 1 and 2, textbooks for which only South Africa pays? Who buys Sotho textbooks to teach his children Sotho? Is there a market elsewhere in the world or even in South Africa for that? That is the position we are faced with. We are dealing with people that have to be educated and with backlogs that are unique in the world.

†I cannot agree that this is a crisis situation, but I would be foolish if I were to deny that it is an unhappy situation.

*In this regard I want to associate myself with what the hon. member for Hercules had to say. I am grateful that when I took over this department, the hon. the Prime Minister met the teachers, addressed them and gave undertakings to them, whereas he himself had a very heavy programme. He should really have taken it amiss of me as the responsible Minister if I did not provide him with full information. Nevertheless he found the time to give people a hearing and also to give me a hearing when I wanted to consult him.

Both sides of the House would be foolish not to recognize that we have to face up to a difficult situation—in certain circles it is put differently—and find a solution for it. Last year the hon. member for Johannesburg North pointed out that Prof. G. van N. Viljoen, as chairman of the Committee of University Principals, had made a pronouncement which, when one reads it in Hansard, is disquieting. I think the hon. member for Johannesburg North will recall that he quoted it. It was to the effect that the Government should have no doubt as to the serious credibility gap that had arisen. I took note of that. We must take note of that. The hon. member for Hercules also put it in those terms. However, I want to say to hon. members opposite that if we reach agreement in the way in which it has now been achieved, then we must begin to think in terms of positive things.

†Perhaps I am divulging a secret—I did not want to mention it—but I am glad to say that I phoned the Federal Council today and was able to tell them that progress could be reported in our discussions revolving round the composition, and other aspects, of the commission of inquiry. I hope to be seeing them tomorrow afternoon. They are coming down specially, and I have great appreciation for the effort they are putting in to solving this problem.

*They will meet me tomorrow evening. From six o’clock tomorrow evening, at which stage the hon. member will perhaps be going home, we shall still have to work late into the night, as has often happened before. There is a willingness on the part of people to negotiate, and I, for my part, will do my share.

†Do the hon. members of this House realize—I did not always realize it myself—how many people have to be consulted in connection with salaries and things of that kind? Does the hon. member for Pinelands realize that it is not only a matter of discussing primary and secondary schoolteachers’ demands?

[Inaudible.]

Does the hon. member for Sandton want to put a question to me?

I just said that you seem to be learning a lot lately. There are a lot of things you did not seem to know.

Well, perhaps the hon. member for Sandton knows what many other hon. members do not know, namely that there are, amongst other, the Committee of University Heads, the technikons and the different provincial administrations to be considered. It is one big web of authorities that have to be consulted before one can reach some sort of finality. Under very difficult circumstances last year, and at a very late stage, my department gave the relevant figures to the Treasury. As I say, it was at a very, very late stage, towards the end of September. Whereas others have to have their figures available by the end of May, we were given the opportunity to negotiate a better deal for the teachers. It is not ideal. We will have to work towards a still better deal for them. But I appeal to hon. members to let bybones be bygones. This state of affairs has lasted for too long and must now be solved.

*Last year the hon. member for Durban Central made a speech here which I have looked up. On that occasion the hon. member said that the problems of the teaching profession were not something that could be prejudiced by a public debate. He said that this was profoundly to South Africa’s detriment. Accordingly I tried to refrain from any comment, even when taking part in debates, which would rot reflect credit on this matter or myself.

I wish to conclude by referring to just one other matter. Five days before the start of the budget debate I appeared on television. I was not prepared for questions. I sat in Cape Town in a cubicle. I do not wish to reproach anyone for that. It was folly on my part and I take full responsibility for it. I was not warned in advance that people in the television studios in Johannesburg would put questions to me. It was neither to their credit nor to mine, but the most important point is that it harmed the cause of education. Three days after the television programme there was a protest meeting of 3 000 people. Can 3 000 people come together so promptly merely on the basis of a television interview?

Yes. [Interjections.]

If that is the case, I must say that it has come very close to midnight in South Africa. It is true that there are people with complaints. Our own pupils, too, have complaints. However, I want to make a plea to the hon. member for Pinelands. For a time I served, together with other hon. members of the Opposition, on the Schlebusch Commission, originally the Kruger Commission. I saw how Marcuse could get through to the thoughts of any pupil. He maintained: “It is not a revolution of the proletariat any more, but a revolution through youth.” My good friend, the hon. member for Mooi River, who served with me on the commission, can confirm that that is what Marcuse said. He said that this age was using the youth. Accordingly there is an obligation on us from this side of the House to see to it that our youth remains disciplined under the supervision of teachers who are happy and contented. We have a duty to make everyone happy who is in the teacher’s profession, whose work demands sacrifices. The Government is committed to doing so, and we shall do so as circumstances permit. I call upon everyone not to allow this yeast of dissatisfaction to work through to the children of South Africa. We, the Government, have the primary responsibility, and I know that my department and I stand in the vulnerable front line, but we are all faced with the test of whether we shall be able to inspire our youth to act correctly in the future and whether we shall set them an example as to how to conduct themselves.

Mr. Chairman, I am particularly grateful that, through God’s will, I am able to participate in this illustrious debate this afternoon. I want to express my gratitude towards the hon. the Minister for the efficient way in which he dealt with the tricky matter of education. I also want to express my gratitude towards the hon. the Minister of National Education for the way in which he dealt with a very difficult matter. We have a special interest in some fields of education and for the requests that are made on their behalf. We want to wish the hon. the Minister and his department everything of the best in dealing with an extremely difficult task.

I want to thank the Historical Monument Commission heartily for what they have done over the past year. On this occasion I should like to say something about the prison cells in which the former State President was imprisoned in Port Elizabeth during September 1942.

It was my privilege to pay a visit, as part of a small group, to the present post office building in Port Elizabeth in order to establish whether that very old building was still functional. Previously, that Post Office building in Port Elizabeth which housed the courts in which cases were heard in Port Elizabeth. The Postmaster took us to all the nooks and crannies in that building and the last place that we visited was a few cells that we reached after we had descended a flight of stairs and walked along a very narrow passage. These were the cells for people awaiting trial at the time when the present Post Office building still housed the courts He remarked that the former State President was detained in one of those cells as a political prisoner for a few days.

The passage is very narrow, with a small iron staircase which led to the court building where the person awaiting trial was to appear before the court. The political prisoner had to spend his days in that small room, measuring approximately three by four metres. Beside it was the cell for those who had been condemned to death. The prisoners were kept in those small rooms for many days without ablutionary facilities. Their food consisted of a meat pie and a cup of tea, because at that time a prisoner did not yet prepare his own food.

When I think of those underground cells, I want to ask the Historical Monument Commission to give attention to them. One of those cells accommodated a pioneer who fought for Afrikaans and everything that is related to it, viz. religion, culture and politics. That person, the former State President, was later taken to an intern camp and later on he became one of the greatest sons of South Africa. He is the man who fearlessly professed his honesty and fought for those things which mean a great deal to the Afrikaner. Like many others, he made his sacrifice for that cause.

I think of him as a person who later made his way to the top. I also think of him as the man who most probably achieved most success in bringing English and Afrikaans-speaking people closer to one another, as was the case during the election of 1978. I consider him a great statesman, the greatest of his time. That man received his training in that cell, measuring three by four metres, in which he spent days and weeks without any ablutionary facilities and where he had to spend his days and nights in darkness without his loved ones being able to visit him.

I want to ask for these cells under that erstwhile courthouse to be declared an historical monument in order to serve as a beacon along the road of the genesis of Afrikaans in every sphere where Afrikaans plays a role. I want to ask for the conservation of those cells, not to generate racial hatred, but to serve as an indication for the English-speaking people too, of the price that must be paid to keep a language vital, powerful and new.

Yesterday there was a complaint from that side of the House about the low standard of English used in this House. Who must we blame for this? We must blame our English-speaking friends for it, because they are no longer serious about their monuments and language functions. I notice a lack of pride amongst my English friends, pride in their country and their origin. It is that pride which keep Afrikaans alive, and therefore I want to ask for that monument to such a great man, who will go down in history as one of the greatest of our times, that cell in which he was detained, to be conserved as an historical monument for posterity.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Somerset East must forgive me if I do not react to the points he made.

In the first place, the hon. the Minister was very upset about the document that had been released. He made it clear that he had had nothing to do with it and that his department had not had anything to do with it either. The problem concerning this document is simply the fact that such a situation was created, that such a document did appear and that it was abused. This is what worries me, but what is the cause of this whole issue? The cause is that we decided very idealistically many years ago that the salaries of teachers should not be published. All I want to tell the hon. the Minister is that it does not work, because in the end they do get published, either through leaks or as unofficial documents. This is the unsound situation which may arise. Therefore I want to call on the hon. the Minister to see to it that in future negotiations, the facts will be presented as they are. Then there will be no problems.

In the second place, the hon. the Minister spoke about his television programme. I do not want to comment on that. He was placed in a difficult position, and those who live in a glass house should not throw stones on their neighbour’s roof. Next I come to another point which the hon. the Minister raised, and which I had expected. He is fully entitled to call upon us “to try to see the wood instead of the trees and to let bygones be bygones.” As the Federal Council said in a recent joint statement: “Let us leave the matter in the hands of the Minister and the council.” I appreciate that this is the standpoint of the hon. the Minister, but after all that has happened, I do not believe that we as the highest authority in this country should simply be prepared to say that we should forget. I believe we should be neglecting our duty if we did not debate this matter any further. The hon. the Minister is quite right. I have checked in Hansard, and in one of my first speeches in this House I made the statement that the greatest tragedy in education was the fact that once salaries and structural increases became the subject of public dispute, irreparable damage was done. I have been speaking about it for 10 years. I spoke about it last year, but what has happened in the meantime? The very same thing has taken place. That is why I maintain that we should try to get away from it once and for all. For that reason I consider it absolutely essential that we should rather expose the matter completely in order to see what the problem is. As regards this standpoint, I wish to point out that a mass meeting of the S.A. Onderwysersunie was recently held in the northern suburbs. On that occasion one of the members said that since the ’fifties, every improvement and increase had been preceded by a dispute. It has always been my experience too, and it was my experience once again this year. But why is that?

†The disadvantage to the profession of becoming involved in a public debate of this nature is not only obvious, but is one of the greatest tragedies. More than ten years ago we conducted a survey in Natal on the recruitment of teachers and we found a very high correlation of low recruitment at schools where teachers were actively involved in salary campaigns. It is not conducive to the recruitment of especially promising young people. After all, who wants to join a profession when its members have to lower themselves to fight publicly for every little improvement in their situation? Hon. members must not get the impression that I want to place the teachers and their associations in the guilty box. If something has been happening consistently for more than two decades, it is time to ask the Government whether it should not be in the guilty box. Teachers and their associations are only too well aware of the many disadvantages in conducting campaigns to improve their conditions. My point is that the fact that it has happened during recent months compounds the guilt of those in power.

I also want to make it very clear that I in no way want to attack the hon. the Minister personally, or try to put the blame on his shoulders. As we all know, he has only been in this portfolio for a very short period. We have had four Ministers of National Education during the last six years. Teachers believe that the profession has constantly been let down. They talk about a breach of faith. This is something the Cabinet should accept collective responsibility for. I cannot understand why these changes have taken place, because it is not conducive to good Government to have this constant shifting of people in such an important position. I know the Government might be reluctant to accept guilt, but this is an occasion where it should.

One of the main factors which has given rise to the constant widening of the credibility gap between the Government and the teaching profession is that various Ministers of Education, maybe in good faith, make wonderful speeches in this House using phrases such as “noble profession”, “mother profession” and describe the profession as one which requires specially dedicated people. Yet, after they have indicated their willingness to act, when they have to bargain with the rest of the Cabinet—not only this Cabinet, but Cabinets over a long period of time—there is no evidence that they have been able to convince their colleagues of the very special nature of the teaching profession and of the high priority to be accorded to teachers in particular and the profession in general. They do not put their word into action.

The question is asked whether teachers have indeed a case. I have found people who wonder whether, because teachers always have to fight for their rights, they really have a case or whether they are just perpetual moaners. Let us look at the record. I believe teachers have a case. A carrot has been waved before them for far too long. It is absolutely necessary to relate past history to put things in perspective. A new deal was promised as long ago as 1975 “when the economic position improves”.

That was in 1976.

It was announced for the first time in a speech in 1975. In April 1976 the then Minister repeated that a new structure would be considered when the economy permitted. I do not want to go into the detail of the “Ideal structure”, whether there was such a thing or not, or into the negotiations in 1977. In January 1978 teachers accepted what was regarded as a minimum structure. It provided for an average salary increase of 8%. About 27% of the teachers got 5% or less increase. At the same time the Civil Service received a 5,5% increase. The real problem started in 1979, when the teachers did not get any increase whereas the Civil Service received a 10% increase. That was where those of us who have been asking that this be kept out of public debate, were let down. We must strengthen the hands of whoever negotiates on behalf of the Cabinet for a better deal for the profession, and that is why I have to speak out.

On 24 October 1979 the teaching profession met the hon. the Prime Minister, which was a good thing. They were promised a new salary increase for 1980. It was stated then that the increases would make up for the arrears suffered by teachers in comparison with other Civil Service employees and that education would be lifted out. But it must be said categorically that the increases which were granted came nowhere near to wiping out the deficit. We were told that the tax reductions should be seen as part of the package deal for teachers. I shall deal with that later. The Civil Service also received an increase this year. They too received a service bonus. The hon. the Minister of Finance held out wonderful prospects for married teachers with two children, but there are married men with two children in the Civil Service too. In fact, everybody will benefit by the tax reforms. The harsh reality is that whatever disadvantages there were still exist today. Those who do not believe me I just want to refer to a Press report on the salaries of teachers. A male teacher with four years of study—a degree and a teacher’s diploma—receives a starting salary of R6 510. His maximum is R9 750. An assistant engineer or architect with four years’ study starts on the Railways with R9 750. In other words, he starts at the salary the teacher receives after seven years as a maximum salary. Meanwhile the assistant engineer on the Railways can progress to a salary of R16 000.

I am the first to agree that there could be justification for the differentiation between the respective salaries of these two professions, but is it justified that the top scale of an employee with four years of university education in the one profession equals the bottom salary in the other profession. This is the point.

I want to deal with some other realities. Let us look at the question of the service bonus. A great deal has been made about the service bonus teachers will receive. Of course, the gross service bonus is not 100%, but 93% of the teacher’s actual monthly salary. The so-called 13-month salary bonus has been in existence in the mining industry and in private enterprise for many, many years. It therefore does not really give teachers an additional advantage. All along the married male teacher has been receiving a bonus of R260 per annum. I am now going to quote two sets of figures, the one for 1965 and the other for 1970. The bonus of R260 for married teachers started some time between these two dates.

From 1965 to 1970 the consumer price index rose by 17%. From 1970 to March 1980 it increased by another 164,1%. In real money terms a teacher should now receive a service bonus of R803,39, in order to be the equivalent of the bonus of R260 that was paid to teachers 14 or 15 years ago. The R803,39 represents 93% of his present salary. This means that the only teachers whose position could be placed on a par with the position of teachers 15 years ago, are those teachers who receive a gross monthly salary of R863 per month, or R10 366 per annum. It will only be applicable to category F teachers at the top of their scale and category G teachers. I am now talking about male teachers.

All told there are 47 262 White teachers on level 1 and of these only 609 are in the F and G categories. Even if we assume that they are all married male teachers—which they are not—and that all of them are near the top of their salary scales—which they are not—and if we give all the benefit of the doubt to those who believe that this 13- month salary bonus is a wonderful improvement, we see that only 1,2% of married male teachers will in real terms receive a bonus equivalent to the bonus teachers received more than a decade ago.

Where do you get that percentage?

If we take the bonus they received in 1970 as our basis, we find that in order to receive a bonus that will be equal to the bonus of R260 teachers received in 1970, teachers should now receive a bonus of R738. Anyone who receives a bonus which is below this, will in fact be in a worse position than the position teachers were in in 1970.

Your calculations are wrong.

Let me continue. That will give one an income of R8 851 per annum. However, 90% of male teachers on Level 1 do not qualify for this. To those who say that the new bonus system is a wonderful improvement, I want to say that it does not even compare to the bonus teachers originally received when they started with the bonus system.

Let us now look at teachers’ actual salaries. On 31 March 1980 the consumer price index, which, according to the Department of Statistics, was based on 100 in 1970, stood at 264,1. It has therefore increased by 164,1 since 1970.

Let us now look at category D, under which the majority of male teachers fall. In 1971 the starting salary on what was known as the standard scale was R2 820 per annum. If one adds a 164,1% increase to this, one should arrive at a figure of R7 447 per annum. In 1980—on 1 April—the so-called new deal gives that person R6 510. This same teacher is receiving, in real terms, R957 a year less.

But we had a recession of four years.

No, do not come along with that. In real terms this teacher is receiving R957 a year less than he should have received if he were meant to maintain the standard of 1970.

Let us now compare the top scales. In 1970 every teacher started on the standard scale, and progressed automatically to the progression scale, after three years’ service. That means that an M+4 teacher in the case of a male teacher, would, in 1970, receive a yearly remuneration of R4 620 if he had reached the top of his scale by 1 April of that year. I obtained these figures from circulars published in 1970, which I have kept ever since. Allowing for the 164,1% rise in the consumer price index a similarly qualified teacher should, on 1 April 1980, have been receiving R12 201 a year. The top scale for a male teacher in category D, on 1 April 1980, was R9 750, which is R2 451— nearly R200 a month—less than he should have been receiving if his salary had kept pace with the increase in the consumer price index.

Even if that M+4 male teacher is an exceptionally good teacher and has therefore received three merit awards—which means he will now be on top of his personal scale—he will still be R650 a year short of that total. Needless to say that the merit award system has not even progressed far enough to allow this teacher to receive such a salary.

I have tried to quote facts in order to prove that whatever disadvantages teachers suffered 10 years ago are still being suffered by them. In reality, I believe, their position is even worse than it was in 1970.

I should like to say a final word on what I believe to have been a very unfortunate incident. That was the entering into this debate on teachers by the hon. the Minister of Finance. This was reported in The Citizen, under the heading—

We all remember how, in his budget speech, the hon. the Minister of Finance quoted examples relating to top posts in education. The hon. the Minister of Finance then said teachers in those top posts were to receive an increase of R450 a year. There is not a single teacher or principal or inspector of education in that category. The hon. the Minister of Finance added that a senior teacher’s take-home pay would increase by R210 a month. In this respect I should like to quote what teachers said in Mentor, the monthly publication of the Natal Teachers’ Association. According to the report in this publication a male teacher who is on his maximum scale will receive an extra R84 a month, which means an increase of 7,6%. That is in the case of an M+4 principal. Women on their maximum scale, the report states, will receive an extra R75 a month, which means an increase of 6,8%. Then the report states—

Then the question is asked—

There are no senior teachers who fall in this category. In the Other Place, the hon. the Minister of Finance said that the new service bonus could easily be R1 000. Again the hon. the Minister of Finance did not refer to any specific category of teacher. He was referring to somebody in a promotion post, but not to a specific teacher. A R1 000 gross service bonus will be payable only to a teacher with an income of R1 075 a month, or R12 903 p.a. Referring again to the income of R12 903, quoted by the hon. the Minister, I should like to point out that the real situation in the country is that not a single one of the 47 262 teachers will qualify for this. Not one of the teachers in the categories on level 1 will qualify for this. Of those in promotion posts—those on level 2,—not a single one will qualify regardless of their qualifications. From level 3 through to level 8 it will be found that only about 50% of teachers will qualify provided they are male teachers.

The question I should like to put is: Why does the hon. the Minister of Finance enter into debates, give figures, issue statements and the like, relating to fictitious cases? Why does he not first consult with the hon. the Minister of National Education or the Department of National Education? They would have helped him. They would have given him the correct information. There are teachers who even now think they are going to receive a R1 000 bonus. I can just imagine the outcry we are going to witness once they realize that they are not going to receive a R1 000 bonus. There is a last point I want to make. I have already shown that a person who earned R5 000 ten years ago should now be getting about R12 000. There is also something one has to bear in mind, however, and that is that when the tax reforms come, the rate for a present day salary of R10 000 will still be higher than what it was for R5 000 ten years ago. That is only going to aggravate circumstances.

I just want to add something else. Mention has been made of a small group of militants, but I believe that unless we put our house in order and have a thorough investigation—I am glad there is going to be one—it will be the people who are in power who will be responsible for the emergence of a group of militants. That is something I certainly do not want. I do not want teachers forming a union or a trade union. It is for those reasons that I raise these issues.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Durban Central made a good start, and I really thought that he was going to make a responsible speech in the interest of education this afternoon after the hon. member for Pinelands—and he must excuse me for saying so—made an irresponsible one. I know that deep down, the hon. member for Pinelands wants the best for the teachers, but the way in which he played the game this afternoon, was directly to the detriment of the teaching profession.

Ask the teachers themselves.

I shall come back to that again in a moment. However, first of all there is something that I want to say to the hon. member for Durban Central. He came up with the idea that the Government pays tribute to the teaching profession as the mother profession but that it does not put its words into actions. There is something that I must say to the hon. member for Durban Central at once. I know it is not popular to tell the teachers that they have a wonderful profession today, that they have an idealistic profession and that they are in fact a mother profession. It is not very popular to say so for political reasons. I am aware of this. However, it would be a sorry day if the teachers themselves, or anyone in this country, did not want to take pleasure in the real greatness of the teaching profession. We are doing so. However, after having done so, I immediately and categorically put things into the right perspective. I said last year—and this is on record—that there were, of course, justified expectations amongst the teachers, and of course there were disappointments. However, as responsible people in this House, we must also compare things.

The hon. member for Pinelands says we are not giving the teachers enough. He says we are dealing with the functions of the department of National Education and therefore he does not mention the rest. I then asked myself whether there was any body in this country for which the hon. member for Pinelands would not ask for higher salaries. I ask him directly. Is there any sector?

Yes.

Which one?

Cabinet Ministers.

This is the type of reply I would have expected from the hon. member for Pinelands. [Interjections.] That is why I say he is totally irresponsible. As the chief spokesman on national education for the official Opposition, he makes absolutely irresponsible statements here. If he thinks he is going to get away with this, he is making a very grave mistake. He will not. The dilemma of this entire problem of salaries, this year in particular, is that we are on different wave lengths. The two Opposition members who have already spoken, were merely concerned with salaries. They are correct in approaching the problem from that angle, because that is what the dispute has been about since 1976. However, there is also the other side of the story and why do we not hear a single sound about it from them? I am asking this, because surely they also want to argue in a balanced way. I expect it of them. Why do they not mention that since the hon. the Minister of Finance and the hon. the Prime Minister met with the Federal Council last year they spoke about the “package”. This is as plain as a pikestaff. It is true that the 13th month service bonus puts extra money into the pockets of the teachers too. I concede that it is also putting extra money into the pockets of all the other people in the Public Service. It is also true that the tax concessions are also putting extra money into the pockets of the teachers. I also concede that it is doing the same for all the other people in the Public Service. We must also put it into perspective that it is in fact true that the teacher received a specific some of money more than is merely attached to the salary as such.

The hon. member for Pinelands mentions 13%. I question this, because it may be true for a single category, but I want to state categorically—if the hon. member for Pinelands does not agree with me, he is uninformed—that the point is that if one wants to make a statement about percentages with regard to the salary structures of teachers on the eight different levels with the different categories, of which there are seven on each level, one is looking for trouble.

If the hon. member for Durban Central wants to give us a lecture about sums this afternoon, I say to him: My good friend, you are completely wide of the mark; you cannot do it. [Interjections.] The Federal Council originally worked for years and hours together with the General Committee on it. After that, they worked with a committee on which the Commission for Administration was also represented, together with the Department of National Education etc. These are knowledgeable people. I am not saying that you are not good with figures, but I question some of the things that you mention here. I want to tell you that people have worked on this.

Order! The hon. member must address the Chair.

Sir, I apologize. Sir, I want to tell you … [Interjections.] … it is not for hon. members to try to contrast figures and percentages in the Committee this afternoon, because it is not in the interest of education for us to do so. I ask the hon. members to forget about those figures and percentages. We cannot reach agreement on that point and we cannot do anything good for the teachers.

The hon. member for Pinelands sees fit to ask by means of an interjection whether we have no sympathy with the teacher. The hon. member is the chief spokesman on education for the official Opposition and he should therefore be au fait with these things, but he shows very clearly that he is unaware of the statement that was issued and with which the hon. the Minister dealt. That statement was drawn up jointly by the Federal Council and the hon. the Minister of National Education. Can it be possible that the hon. member for Pinelands, as the chief spokesman of the official Opposition, speaks about a number of things here that he is grasping out of the air, whilst he does not know that the Federal Council issued a statement together with the hon. the Minister of National Education in which the Federal Council, as the hon. the Minister indicated very clearly, asks for matters to be left in the hands of the hon. the Minister and the Federal Council if there really is respect for education! Why does the hon. member for Pinelands not do this?

I shall reply now.

Very well, we shall wait.

I said the hon. member is grasping things from the air. If I heard him correctly, the hon. member said that there are 275 vacant posts. He goes on to argue—he must tell me if I am wrong …

In the Transvaal.

Yes, in the Transvaal. He goes on to argue that this means that there are now 55 000 school children without teachers. Surely this is too ridiculous to be true! Although there are 275 vacant posts, it does not necessarily mean that there is no teacher in front of the class, because those vacant posts are filled on a temporary basis. This is the first point. I now come to the second point. According to the hon. member, 275 vacant posts mean that there are no teachers to teach the children for a single period but for the rest of the periods there are teachers. This would be the case if there was really no teacher, but as I said, temporary staff are appointed. [Interjections.] In the third place I must point out that although he spoke of 55 000, I find that if I divide 275 into 55 000, I get a figure of 200. I must tell the hon. member that 200 children is really a bit much. Where does he get the 200 from? I leave him at that. I see he is nodding in agreement and consequently he is in agreement with me.

What does the future hold? This is a very important question to me. In his opening speech this year the State President said there is a project committee which was formed around June last year—that is if my memory does not fail me. That project committee’s terms of reference are to discuss the status of the teacher. To save time, I shall not quote the second objective, but summarize it briefly by saying that all things related to the first objective—must also be investigated. I want to allege that 80% of the things that are at issue, are salaries. If one looks at the composition of that committee, one sees that it is a formidable one. It consists of a basic committee with about five members plus, if I remember correctly, approximately 23 co-workers. These are people of high calibre and include representatives of the Federal Council, universities, technikons, the department etc. Those people are carrying out their task.

Now there is also talk of a commission. In fact, the hon. the Prime Minister spoke about a general inquiry into the problematics. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, “we are living in difficult times”. This is an expression that we hear over and over again. We hear it so often that even the greatest optimist must become pessimistic in time. How does this expression actually affect the child of our time, who is in fact most important? It is not so important to me who distributed the document and who wrote it. What is extremely important to me, is the child of today. The biggest crisis with which the present-day world is faced, is a lack of a clear idea of one’s destiny and vocation in the world today. One no longer has a clear, straightforward idea of the Creator’s bidding: “Increase and multiply and subdue the earth.” Today, this knowledge must principally be conveyed to the child by the teacher.

“Teaching” is a small word, but in actual fact it includes a tremendous amount of work, a tremendous number of people and there is a tremendous amount of strength, effort and energy that must be put into it. The teacher is not only a guide and a leader, but he is also the authority in the sphere of education.

The last two decades have made tremendous demands on the teacher. There has been an upswing in the industrial sphere, the technological sphere, the economic sphere, the scientific sphere—in every conceivable sphere. Who has had to ensure that we kept up with it? It was the task of the people involved in education. The task of education is a vast, comprehensive one. The educational task of the teacher, in the last two decades in particular, has been accompanied by tremendous responsibilities, due to the development that I have just pointed out. It must take into account the child of today, the parent of today, the national and international troubles of today, the many demands, both physical and spiritual on the individual, it must take into account the teacher and his ability and the demands of our society.

One is born with the idea of what one should be. The Creator willed it so. However, the teacher must make the child aware of this idea. It must be discovered and released so that it can develop and grow. Therefore, to educate the child, means subjecting his physical and sensory nature to good, inviolate reason. Therefore, the child must be guided to achieve the maximum development of his potential for the sake of and to the benefit of himself, his family and his community. Therefore, the teacher is at the centre of the educational milieu. His example and his influence are of cardinal importance today.

The teacher of today knows that knowledge is only valuable if it is implemented in order to achieve practical results. Knowledge is an instrument to be used in seeking an end result. In this respect the teacher must be very careful in taking into account the ability of the child, the demands and needs of the community and the nature of the world in which we are living.

I am not exaggerating when I say that the teacher today has a noble task. He must assist in developing the possibilities inherent in the child, and turn them into something noble. He can lead the child to self-activity. Self-control and self-respect are the main materials used to build character and they can only be achieved through self-activity.

Therefore, in present-day life the emphasis falls on fundamental facts, and no longer so much on factual knowledge. Fundamental facts are the means or instruments for achieving independent thought, self-development and ultimately self-determination and determining one’s own destiny. Therefore, character and example play a decisive role here. Consequently, the teacher of today must be the embodiment of knowledge and virtue, and continuous study is required for this. It is the teacher who generates and develops the desire to learn in his pupils. He must continually become deeper, study and increase his knowledge. He is the one who must always be developing the moral character of our pupils. He must discipline them and ensure that they develop a religious sense. He must make them aware of their culture, their traditions and their morals.

It is difficult to provide such a service to the children of today, because the child of today is in the clutches of many factors such as a high divorce rate, unhappy homes, the considerable increase of alcoholism, child neglect, drugs, behavioural aberrations and personality disturbances. In brief, it is a very confused world of a great deal of heartbreak, many disappointments and great frustrations for the child. In this regard our teachers are not only educationists, but very often they have to take the place of the father and mother in the child’s life.

That is why I feel that I must thank every teacher from the depths of my heart for his or her personality, the fine image which they project, their ability to be pleasant educationists, the training that they undergo, their faith and sense of religion and their sincerity. I want to say thank you because the teachers consider every child as an individual and help him in his search for the fulfilment of his own life and destiny. I want to say thank you very much to every teacher who develops the possibilities in the child. My thanks go to the men and women for whom teaching has become a way of life. I say thank you very much that they share their free time with the children in sport, extramural activities, youth activities and the use of their leisure time. I am grateful to them for spending sleepless nights for the sake of the future of our children. These children, the nation of tomorrow, who have to comply with the demands of tomorrow and the next day, who control the rapid development of today efficiently and utilize it, will have to face an enemy of the world, an enemy such as we never knew in our childhood, and they can only win if they have been equipped as fully as possible. I conclude by saying that the teacher of today has a noble task and we are grateful that they are able to perform it.

Mr. Chairman, I do not think anybody would want to quarrel with what the hon. member for Germiston District has said, but I hope she will forgive me if I move directly back to the hon. member for Virginia because he actually put certain questions to me and I should like to respond to them very quickly. I can appreciate that he did perhaps not hear the whole of my sentence about the shortage of teachers; so I read it from my notes again. I mentioned that there were 270, not 275, vacant posts in the Transvaal high schools and that at some time during each school-day—I accept what he says: at some time, not every day—50 000 pupils sit idle.

That is still wrong.

Yes, it does happen. There are certain periods when no teachers are available. That is a fact of life.

What do you know about education?

The hon. member for Cape Town Gardens asks what I know about education. What I know is that he has never been educated and never will be because there is no likelihood of it. The hon. member for Virginia disappoints me very considerably. He attacked me and the hon. member for Durban Central at great length, but not once did he give any indication that things are not well in education in South Africa. He did not do so even once. Not even one sentence did he say that things are not right, that we must move or that teachers did not have a square deal. And teachers did in fact not have a square deal. Let me just give an example. The hon. member quarrels with our facts and figures and says that they cannot be right. He does not do so on a balance of fact, but, just because he does not like them, he says that they cannot be right. It is quoted from an official document which is circulated by the department, but he says that the figures cannot be right, because he does not like them. Let me deal with just one point which was raised with me by someone very high up in the teaching profession. This is what he says—

That is the point—

That is also the point I tried to make earlier. The people whom we need to motivate the most, the people who are at the top, who are influencing the profession, received the least reward. I think that is wrong, and that is why I think the hon. the Minister is right in talking about an official inquiry.

I want to say to the hon. the Minister that I appreciate his reply early in the debate. I think that was helpful. However, I do not accept the reply he gives regarding the document. I am not going to go on to that subject again, but I am just saying that it is a great pity that the hon. the Minister was not in a position—I am not blaming him—to come clean once and for all and tell this House who originated that document and for what purpose. I say that because once that has been done, it is done with, it is dealt with and we will all be satisfied. But the hon. the Minister says to me and to this House that, after all and in the final analysis, it is the teachers’ associations who have the responsibility. I cannot accept that.

I also have a responsibility.

Quite. I accept that. But this side of the House also has a responsibility. There has been a public controversy and it has been waged right throughout the land, and in this connection we have a responsibility and we dare not duck it. I am sorry that we have not yet resolved that question.

In terms of the commission of inquiry, I hope the hon. the Minister will tell us in a little more detail later on, if he is able to, what he can tell us, because we are vitally interested. We have only had certain statements made by the hon. the Prime Minister and certain alternatives have been suggested. We should like to know what is in the mind of the Government, if the hon. the Minister can tell us up to this time.

I am sorry that he mentioned that the protest meeting of 3 000 seemed to him to be a little suspicious. I do not think he has realized the power of television, although I am sure he does now, after his rather unfortunate experience. Now he will know why we are often critical of the television coverage in this country. May I say, if ever he agrees to appear on television again, we on this side of the House are quite prepared to face the same questions, the same problems and the same difficulties, knowing that we shall probably also get a bad time. Yet we are quite prepared to do that and then we can both suffer, but I would welcome that suffering. I should like that opportunity.

I want to mention a couple of other issues which I should like the hon. the Minister to deal with if he will.

First of all there is the question of married White female teachers. Unfortunately I do not have the time now to deal with them in detail, but if one takes the case of a fully qualified high school teacher who cannot get a permanent post in a White school and who then accepts a teaching post at a Black school, one finds that it is not counted as service if she teaches in a Black school. I am sure that teaching in a Black school is just as important, but yet it does not count towards repayment of her loan. I think that is very unfortunate. I know that this may be regarded as a provincial matter, but we have a Department of National Education which very often determines the policy, and I therefore hope that we could look at that situation, because I believe that it is wrong. When she gets an offer to teach somewhere else and she enjoys her job and believes that she is making a contribution, I think that should also count towards repayment of her loan.

Secondly, I want to say that I have a letter from the honorary secretary of the S.A. Association of Management Institutes. They are very worried about the situation as regards the technikons, in respect of the introduction of new national diplomas and higher national diplomas. They make the point that there is a number of well-known, well-recognized organizations and various institutes, such as the Institute of Administration of Commerce, the Institute of Bankers, etc.—I have the whole list here if the hon. the Minister would like to see it—which actually are in charge of those diplomas. If this is now going to fall under the technikons as well, I think it is hardly fair on those institutions. If I could pass this on to the hon. the Minister, he could perhaps give his attention to it.

There is one other point I should like to make. Here again I know that it involves the provinces. But our dilemma is that there are certain matters which fall under the provinces and others which fall under the Department of National Education.

It is my dilemma too.

Yes, I am quite sure of that. Last year we passed the Education and Training Act, which, of course, affects Black education. The hon. the Minister will remember one clause in that Bill, because it was his responsibility at the time. Section 8(4) states that the provision of subsection (1) shall not be considered as prohibiting any other education department from granting approval for the enrolment of a Black person at a school registered or approved by the department in question. This seems to be working extremely well in the Cape Province and in Natal, but I wonder if the hon. the Minister could tell us whether there is a policy in the Cabinet, in the Government as such, with regard to the admission of Black pupils to private schools, because this is simply not taking place in the Transvaal. I think it is very unfortunate that this is so. Does the Administrator have the final word and does the Cabinet in the final analysis not have the responsibility?

Finally, I want to say that I believe that the commission of inquiry which is going to be instituted is one of the most important commissions ever to be appointed in this country. I hope that it is going to be able to deal with its job in the short-term and also look at the long-term problems and challenges surrounding education in South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Pinelands was a little more sensible in his second speech. I want to refer briefly to a single remark which he made in his first speech, viz. the fact that he ascribed the shortage of English-speaking teachers to the influence of the Broederbond, amongst other things. I want to ask the hon. member whether teachers are trained at the University of the Witwatersrand, the University of Cape Town, the University of Grahamstown and the University of Natal. Can the hon. member tell me what influence the Broederbond has at those universities, which are authnomous bodies? Has the hon. member already been on the campuses of all those universities? I shall tell him which campus he has been on. He only knows the campus of the University Christian Movement. According to the hon. member for Durban Central, there is no problem with regard to recruiting English-speaking students for the teaching profession in Natal. On the contrary, two years ago I asked the Transvaal Provincial Administration to make bursaries available to students outside its provincial boundaries as well. I asked this administration to grant bursaries to English-speaking students, excellent students, who wanted to qualify in Durban, in order to keep them in education. And now the hon. member is making these allegations! I want to tell him that he must go and see how strong the Broederbond is there. On one occasion earlier this year, the hon. member for Houghton visited the students at Wits. Those impudent young men made her very angry on that stage—and I do not think she is a member of the Broederbond. [Interjections.] What they did, was to make silly remarks in a serious debate like this one. This debate has no need of political stupidity, but serious discussion and arguments in order to develop the cause of education.

We do not deny that there is a problem in the educational sphere. On the contrary, we are dealing with it. If anything fine and worthwhile has developed from this matter, then it is the fact that the teaching corps has acquired strength and opportunities to discuss matters, through its professional mouthpiece and the existing channels, that we helped to bring about. However, we do not hesitate or take fright at that behaviour of our teaching corps. The Government itself has strength. We even stand up to hon. members of the Opposition. Day after day the Government holds talks that are just as in-depth, important and difficult as those which are being held with the teaching corps at the moment. From this unfortunate state of affairs that arose, emerges the beauty of opportunities. It is formative, for our education too. Nevertheless, I want to say that in spite of these unfortunate affairs, a deep current of happiness and hard, honest fine work runs through education, for which we must thank our teaching corps, the hon. the Minister, the department and the hon. the Prime Minister. It is brilliant.

Sir, in the Gallery Hall there is a glass case in which an Act and a golden pen are exhibited, which many visitors to Parliament can look at. Today is an historical day, because on 21 May 1930 the then Governor-General signed that Act, with that golden pen. That Act gave the full franchise to women in this country. Now, however, I must say that even today we are still discriminating against the woman in education. I want to tell those people who are so keen for us to move away from discrimination, that we must get rid of this type of discrimination against the woman in education.

There is a shortage of teaching staff in certain subjects, including physical science. I do not want to be pessimistic, but nevertheless I want to say that salary alone cannot win back to education the people specializing in that direction, because in a flourishing economy no State department can compete with the private sector on a salary basis. We cannot do so, but what we can do, is to bring about parity between the salaries of men and women in education. We can encourage beautiful, young female students, who have the ability to follow those subjects as part of their degree course, and try to keep them in education to the benefit of all of us.

I now want to say—I shall try to express it in pleasant terms—that thus far we have been acting in an unjustified, unfair manner towards women, that wonderful gift to our nation. There are other former school principals in this House too, and they can testify together with me. I can mention a woman who taught English to a matric class for five years. It was in the platteland and we had to travel 100 miles to see what an English-speaking person looked like. This teacher did not have a single failure in English in matric for five years. She was the mother of those classes. What hurt me at the end of the month, was that I had to give her a smaller cheque than her male colleagues.

Now that is discrimination for you.

It is a heritage from the old UP time that we really must eradicate. [Interjections.] We are asking nicely. I tried to puzzle out for myself what the reason for this is, and it is that we are applying an old economic law. One does not try to create a market where there is an excess. There is an excess of women in education and that is why we are trying to keep the salaries down to discourage them. This is wrong. We must attract them. Perhaps we should apply stricter criteria or norms and increase the selection requirements. However, we must retain and utilize those beautiful jewels of our nation. If a farmer’s wife from the area in question were to be appointed at the head of a small school on the platteland, the school would become a flower garden. The young fathers farming in the area could coach athletics, soccer, etc. We must use the man in another sphere. [Interjections.]

If there is one sphere that that commission must investigate, it is the achieving of parity between the salaries of men and women. I know that this is a great task, but I think that we will then be able to make a great break-through and we will find that a woman who is as well-educated as her male counterpart can stand before those classes where a problem is being experienced today, because we do not have enough mathematics teachers.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to make a few remarks about the demands, the task and the contribution of our universities and about what we expect from them, particularly in South Africa.

Over the past few decades, the world, and the Western countries in particular, have undergone an era of radical change in all spheres. The present time in the history of mankind has undergone the greatest revolution that there has ever been in the sphere of knowledge, particularly in the sphere of physical science, and there has been development in every sphere of life. Education in general and the universities in particular have had to adapt to this changing world. Education has tried to equip man to overcome the new problems and to answer to the demands that the new world makes of him. Of course, South Africa has not escaped the signs of the times. As a small country with special, unique problems, even greater demands were made of us.

There is not the least doubt that the extent of the demands on universities are phenomenal. The classic ideal of a university simply being there to seek and convey knowledge, has had to make place to an increasing extent for the demands which a complicated community makes of the universities. Today it is the bounden duty of the universities to develop new knowledge, science and techniques and to make them available to the benefit of the entire community of which it forms a part. The present modern university does everything in its power to make more and more educational opportunities available. From an old fashioned élite stage previously, the university has now thrown open its doors for almost mass education. Even scholars who cannot obtain matriculation exemption, are admitted to various diploma courses.

I do not have the time to give a philosophical, historical sketch of the essence of the university. However, I have no doubt that there will be general agreement if one were to formulate the main tasks of a university as follows: In the first place, the pursuit of the various scientific fields applied and adapted to the special conditions in South Africa. Since we are faced with boycotts and several other problems, we expect the universities to give specific attention to problem-orientated research. Together with this, however, we want to ask the State to make an even larger financial contribution to the universities, because it is in the interest of South Africa and all its people.

The second aspect that I want to talk about, is professional knowledge. A few decades ago, the universities trained students for a few professions, for example as teachers, clergymen, advocates and medical practitioners. The modern university makes provision for training people in literally hundreds of different professions.

The third aspect that I want to refer to, is that of community service. Traditionally, the universities were ivory towers, and had very little to do with their respective communities. The modern university of today is an integral part of the community, and apart from the pursuit of science and preparing people for professions, one of its tasks is also that of community service.

In the fourth place the university must shape the man of today for the world of the future. The ancient university with its origin in the monasteries and its isolation from daily life, can no longer fulfil the same function in modern times. The university and life have become one.

We are grateful for the fact that the universities of today have adapted themselves in an unparalleled, responsible manner to the demands of the requirements of modern civilization. I should like to give a few examples of this.

In the first place, there is the establishment of well-planned student guidance bureaux at most universities. This is an attempt to relieve the problem of the student’s change from school to university. This service, as well as other forms of didactic and other support, for instance by student advisers, is very welcome.

In the second place I want to refer, for instance, to the establishment of a bureau for university education at the Free State University with a view to stimulating and improving the entire level of education. This is an example worth following.

In the third place there is the pursuit of further education or refresher courses, or even specialist courses for medical practitioners, lawyers, teachers, architects, social workers and people in other professions who have already completed their studies. This should enjoy the serious attention of the Government. It is in the interest of the country for the professional man and woman always to keep up with new developments. Without adequate Government support, further education would never become a reality. This is what I should like to ask the hon. the Minister for here today.

In the fourth place we must thank and congratulate the universities on the establishment of their own development funds, by means of which they collect large sums of money, chiefly from their former students and well-disposed bodies, so that essential expansion and development can be taken on. However, my impression is that the funds that are at present based on numbers of students in accordance with a subsidy formula, are inadequate and cannot fulfil the growing needs of the present day university. That is why I also want to address a serious request of the hon. the Minister this afternoon, to do what he can to help the universities in this regard.

Although a university may have good students, excellent lecturers, fine buildings and campuses, well equipped laboratories, functional sports fields, etc., there are still two other aspects that it needs, two aspects that will make a university a great university in the true sense of the word.

Even though a university may comply with all the requirements that I have already mentioned, if it is not nationally orientated, it fails in its vocation. This is the one aspect. In our country with its variety of nations every nation should have its own university. On one occasion Dr. Verwoerd put it as follows—

So says Dr. Verwoerd. May every nation and every university take this truth of preservation of the national character to heart.

In conclusion I come to the second aspect. We are living in a time when a tremendous onslaught is being made on the Christian Western civilization. We as a Christian country also expect our universities to pursue, embody and promote the Christian premise of an approach to life and to the world. What is more, our universities must be prepared to keep a watchful eye on the scientific sphere too, so that no strange premises undermine its Christian foundation, its Christian ideas and its Christian approach to science.

Mr. Chairman, I just want to react briefly to what the hon. member for Bloemfontein East said. I wish to congratulate him on a very good speech. Although we can agree with the vast majority of the points he raised, I should just like to refer to the plea which he made for the various ethnic universities. We in this party believe that ethnic universities do play a very important role in the cultural development of a nation. However, it is extremely important, too, that the various universities themselves should have the power to decide which students from which population groups the universities would like to enrol. If the hon. member for Bloemfontein East agrees with that, I have very little fault to find with the very good speech which he made here this afternoon.

I should like to associate myself with what the hon. member for Standerton said. His was a very powerful plea for the ladies in the Department of Education. I am sure they got the message loud and clear. Of course, the hon. member for Standerton also touched upon a matter which is very dear to the heart of this party. I believe the hon. member for Standerton and the hon. the Minister should take note of the fact that our policy is one of equal reward for equal responsibility. On that I am quite in agreement with the hon. member for Standerton. If such is the case, with equal responsibility, we support the hon. member for Standerton wholeheartedly. There is, of course, a practical problem, particularly when the extramural activities in which male teachers are involved are taken into account. However, as regards the principle and the spirit of his speech, we are ad idem.

†One aspect I should like to deal with this afternoon involves the process of adaptation and change in our educational philosophy, policies and procedures in South Africa. I think every hon. member will agree that society—and here I am speaking of our total society and including all race groups— is a dynamic, living organism. Nothing stands still. Things change and people are influenced, not only by events in South Africa, but overseas as well. There is also the question of the efficiency of the mass media. One example is television, of which the hon. the Minister has had some considerable recent experience. There are, of course, also the newspapers. Such mass media, such an instantaneous information service, make changes in the character and direction of a society unavoidable. In this sense it is imperative for the educational system of any society to be sensitive to, and to find congruency with, these changes and shifts in the dynamics of the society. I believe that the hon. the Minister and his department have a vital and critical role to play in the preparation of the children of our society to meet the challenges of the future. Those challenges are not only the traditional three Rs, reading, writing and arithmetic, but also—a matter raised by the hon. member for Virginia two years ago—the viability and the capability of our children, in terms of their attitude, to cope with our society and to become well integrated in this society. Therefore it is imperative for the hon. the Minister and his department to have the means to monitor the changes that are occurring in society. They must then not only work on the basis of the facts they discover, but must also take cognizance of the needs, attitudes and aspirations of the people for whom they are providing an educational service.

In this regard I should like to refer, in particular, to the function and the role of the Committee of Heads of Education. I am aware of the fact that the hon. the Minister will be appointing a committee to investigate the broad spectrum of educational activities, but we already have an existing body, the Committee of Heads of Education, to monitor the needs of education within the population and also the adjustments in policy and procedure within the department. In this regard I think it is imperative for the hon. the Minister to make considerable use of the Committee of Heads of Education. In this regard I want to touch on two vital needs, and I trust that the hon. the Minister will see his way clear to recommending to the Committee of Heads of Education the establishment of two permanent committees to investigate two vital areas of education.

The first area in respect of which I should like to direct a plea to the hon. the Minister is with reference to the establishment of special schools for members of all population groups to deal with specific mentally handicapped people. I am talking about the mentally-handicapped children with intelligence quotients below 50. I am talking about the special schools with which the hon. the Minister’s department has been dealing so successfully over the past few years. I believe, however, that the policy and the practice of the hon. the Minister’s department is not consistent with the needs of the population. I believe that we are undersupplying facilities in this area. There is a desperate and crying need for these special schools which deal with the special educational requirements of children with intelligence quotients below 50. I should like to appeal to the hon. the Minister to establish a permanent committee under the Committee of Heads of Education to investigate the full requirements of that particular sector of education.

The second permanent committee the establishment of which I should like to recommend to the hon. the Minister is a committee to investigate the needs and the problems of the private schools of South Africa. Let me say that my party and I believe 100% in the Department of National Education. It is fulfilling its function excellently. However, in any democracy there will be those who wish to send their children to private schools. I hold no brief for the private schools, but it is obvious to me from petitions we receive and from the correspondence and requests we receive from the private schools that they have particular needs. I am afraid to say that the hon. the Minister is dealing with this on an ad hoc basis. I do not think that that is in step with the reality of the situation. There are private schools and they have got their problems. The hon. member for Pinelands referred to one of them today, viz. the admission of pupils of other race groups. They are in financial need in the Transvaal. In Natal, the Orange Free State and the Cape we have no further problem with subsidies. The provinces have seen their way clear to assist those schools in fulfilling a very vital function, but in the Transvaal rough roads are being followed in this connection. No decisions have been taken. The private schools have been left in a vacuum. If for no other reason, I plead with the hon. the Minister to establish a permanent committee under the Committee of Heads of Education to investigate the complaints in that province. That is what I am asking for. I am not saying that one should accede to their requests to admit pupils of other race groups and I am not saying that one must go overboard with financial assistance to them, but let us at least establish the facts of what their problems are. Unless the hon. the Minister’s department and the hon. the Minister himself, in particular, are aware of the factual problems, they will not be able to cope with the situation. I know it is for the province and the Administrator of the province to deal with financial matters and the question of admission to schools, but the hon. the Minister obviously exercises very considerable influence on what decisions are taken.

In summary and to close off, I should like to point out to the hon. the Minister again that one cannot escape the realities of the needs of society. The hon. the Minister has the means to establish what those needs are in these two cases in particular and I appeal to him not to work on an ad hoc basis in respect of retarded children and the private schools, but to establish two committees under the Committee of Heads of Education to investigate the requirements in those fields.

Mr. Chairman, I want to refer briefly to a remark made by the hon. member for Pinelands. He said that the Government and this side of the House were turning their back on the important work being done by the teacher. I think this is an irresponsible statement to make. However, the hon. member for Pinelands set the matter straight himself in his second speech when he spoke in a more moderate and more responsible way. When the hon. the Minister entered this debate, he spelt out very clearly the procedure that was being adopted to solve the problem of education and we on this side of the House want to convey our gratitude to the hon. the Minister in this regard.

In a previous debate on this Vote I referred to the indissoluble partnership which exists in the milieu of education, a partnership between the school or the teacher, the parent and the child. I have already given attention to the teacher and the parent on previous occasions. Today I want to confine myself principally to the child, the child who is so important to all of us. Because there is of necessity an indissoluble partnership between these three, I shall inevitably have to refer to the parent and the teacher as well.

The child is a God-given gift to the parent. The child is a nation’s crowning glory. Just as the child is devoted and attached to his parent, in the same way he has an indissoluble link with his nation, and his nation with him. Since the parent is primarily responsible for the education of his child, the nation has an encompassing task and responsibility, not only for the teaching and instruction of the child, but also for his education.

Hon. members will observe that I am speaking specifically of the responsibility of the nation towards the child and not of the State’s or the Government’s responsibility. The State is purely a national instrument that has to ensure that the will of the people is carried out in an orderly dispensation. The State accepts the nation’s mandate to implement and give expression to its needs in this regard. As regards this State involvement or State activities, there are in fact two persons to whom the State is responsible, viz. the parent and the teacher.

Both of these persons are thus in a general sense principals of the State and have certain rights which they can expect the State to grant. The parent has the right to expect the State to have his child educated as far as possible, with the self-evident obligations, financial, and otherwise, which he as parent has to comply with. In the same way the educator, i.e. the teacher, has certain rights which he may demand from and expect the State to grant, but here, too, the teacher has certain obligations of which his desire and willingness to train and educate the child to the greatest possible heights are the most important.

Once these rights of the parents and the teacher have been determined and properly stipulated, it is necessary to make a proper evaluation of the obligations of both the parents and the teacher’s obligations. These obligations or responsibilities certainly cannot be outlined and defined clearly. The parents’ responsibility is so wide and extensive that it cannot be tabulated here. It is an unlimited responsibility. It is purely a case of giving immeasurably.

However, this is the case with the teacher as well. When the child sits in the classroom, it could probably be argued that it is the teacher’s task and responsibility to give the necessary instruction. It could be argued that it is the State’s charge to the teacher to teach the child to equip himself academically. I want to state categorically that it would be a sorry day if this were all.

The teacher does not see it in this way. Through the years it has always been the teacher who has taken the child’s hand and led him in the many facets of the educational system and set his feet on the right path, not only in the narrow sphere of instruction, but also in the wide sphere of education. With the greatest dedication, having renounced all his own convenience, the teacher has kept the child with him in the classroom. There he takes the child by the hand and leads him into the unknown. During the afternoons he accompanies the child on the sports fields. There the teacher and the child are bound together by a common interest, a growing devotion and a cameraderie which will remain with the child as long as he lives.

The teacher who accompanies the child in his extra-mural activities on the athletics track, where one afternoon after another he spends hours of his time with the child, on the rugby field, in the heat of a scrummaging practise, on the netball field, baseball field, hockey field, you name it, who plays with the child, and who guides him or her in the process of becoming a complete person, and not only a good athlete, rugby player or hockey player, is at the same time constantly moulding the child like clay into a responsible and loyal citizen of this country, a person of whom a nation can be proud, a person who is prepared to pull his full weight as a patriot.

Unfortunately this extra-mural involvement has been taken for granted by the parent and the child, and, let us say it, by the education departments as well. The teacher gladly participates in these activities. They like to remain involved and enjoy doing so because they want to be educators primarily, and not only fulfil the teacher’s role. This involvement must be preserved. The teacher cannot extricate himself from it. He cannot walk out of the gate at 14h00 and say: “So long, children, I shall see you tomorrow.”

The time is probably past when the teacher would simply fetch his motor-car, load a couple of rugby players in it and drive them to the match venue at his own expense. The control boards, the school committees as well as the various departments will in future have to accept greater responsibilities in this regard. The teacher cannot be compensated for this labour of love, and schools will have to give more attention to organized transport in future. Furthermore, either the school or the department will have to compensate the teacher in a systematic and planned way for the costs per kilometre.

Who is this whole discussion concerned with? If we analyse it, it is ultimately concerned with the child. The child remains in the centre spot. The child remains the most important factor in this whole equation. The child must never be hurt. The child must never become the pawn or the whipping boy who is punished for the sins of others. When rights such as salaries and other benefits are stipulated for, the child may never be affected in this process. There may be no impediment to the child being afforded an opportunity of being able to enjoy the full benefit of education in its totality.

I conclude by referring to an appeal made recently by the hon. the Prime Minister when he expressed the desire that pupils should be afforded the opportunity of listening in schools to the preamble to the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, or even of reciting it aloud. By doing this, the teacher is adding another firm touch to the moulding of the child, and also to the formation of a firm national unity. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, when one undertakes even a superficial study of what is being done in our country for special education, for example centres for the training of handicapped children, one can only take one’s hat off and say thank you, not only to the Department of National Education, but also to the hundreds of teachers who make it their life’s task to instruct and educate these lesser privileged children. I call to mind those with sensory handicaps, for example the visually handicapped and the mentally handicapped, to mention but a few.

Today, however, I should like to say just a few words about the education of epileptic children, in the first place, and autistic children in the second. It is expected that the number of epileptic pupils in this country will increase to 900 during the next three to four years. At present these children are for the most part being taught—and this will be the case in future as well—at three institutions, viz. the Jan Kriel School in Kuils River, the Transvalia School in Pretoria and the W. K. du Plessis School in Springs. The latter school is in the constituency of the hon. member for Geduld. In the same vicinity in Springs there is another very important institution for epileptics, viz. the SANEL Institution. This institution concentrates mainly on training such children further and employing as many of them as possible. Hon. members would be surprised if they knew what wonderful services these people provide. On behalf of this House I want to convey my sincere gratitude to all the teachers at all these institutions for the excellent work they are doing in this sphere.

Three or four weeks ago, on a Sunday evening, there was a television programme on autistic children. These are the children who are so exceptionally active. Unfortunately the medical profession still does not know exactly what the cause of this condition is. They are aware that it is an affliction of the brain which may be caused by brain damage. However, they do not know whether the brain damage occurs before, during or after birth or what part of the brain is damaged. It is a pity, but one must simply accept that at this stage a very low percentage of these young autistic children can be trained in any way. At present there are only 60 to 70 of these children in training institutions throughout the country.

However, a finger cannot be pointed at the Department of National Education, for everything possible is already being done for this handful of people. Everything possible is being done for them at the school for autistic children in Mowbray. This school has always been accommodated in a private house, but within the foreseeable future it will be moved to its own school building, where provision is being made for 50 pupils. At present there are also 34 of these children at the New Hope School in Pretoria after the Forest Town School in Johannesburg had closed and those children were transferred to the New Hope School. A few autistic children are also being trained at the Browns School in Pinetown. Thus there are in fact only two institutions where autistic children are trained.

It is economically essential to centralize such children as far as possible, since only a small percentage of autistic children can at present be trained since they are so hyperactive. One can only hope and trust that medical science will shortly make a breakthrough in this sphere as well. The training of autistic children differs materially from the training of other handicapped children. Their daily training does not end at the end of the school day. They require constant attention in the hostel or the parental home. It is impossible for ordinary hostel staff to control these active children. It is essential for professionally trained teaching staff to be present at all times to instruct these children on a full-time basis. The possibility of appointing such professional people is at present being investigated by the department.

I should like to take this opportunity to say a few words about my own constituency, and although I have already put this in writing, I want to ask the Committee, the department and the hon. the Minister please to give Springs a technikon. Let me motivate my request briefly.

Twenty-five years ago Springs was a prosperous mining town with 10 productive gold mines. Nine of the 10 have already closed and the other is producing at half its capacity. However, Springs has not given up. In actual fact it is developing into an industrial city, to such an extent that Springs collects the fifth most income tax of all the towns and cities in the Transvaal. There are at present more than 1 100 boys studying in technical fields at the Springs Technical High School and the technical section of Springs Boys’ High. There are also many academic and other technical schools nearby, and consequently a feeder area for a technikon ought to be no problem. Springs would like to contribute its share pro rata to the production of the technical know-how which this country needs so badly. Just give us the chance to do so.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with what the previous speaker, the hon. member for Springs, said in connection with underprivileged children. This is a matter of great concern to all of us.

However, I do not wish to discuss education in general. I rather want to concentrate on the Advancement of Culture Branch, which forms a part of the hon. the Minister’s activities, but before I come to that, there is just one question I want to ask the hon. the Minister, perhaps out of curiosity. I am sure that the hon. the Minister, who is a friendly and accommodating person, will not hesitate to reply to this question. While replying to the argument of the hon. member for Pinelands, he told us that someone had offered to furnish him with the long-sought information as to who the author and publisher of that controversial document was.

Oh, no.

All I should like to know now is whether the hon. the Minister could tell us who that person is who acted so secretively and who demanded a pledge of secrecy from him. Just imagine: Someone makes an offer to the hon. the Minister of National Education to furnish him with an absolutely crucial piece of information on the understanding that he will tell no one else. I must say this is a peculiar state of affairs in South Africa.

Just get your facts straight.

There is another question I want to put; this time on the advancement of culture.

I hope this is an intelligent one.

This is a matter of which the hon. member for Mossel Bay does not really have much understanding. [Interjections.] The question I want to put concerns an interview given by the hon. the Minister on 2 May 1980, according to the newspaper Waarheid.

It is probably Fanus Rautenbach’s Waarheid.

I quote from Waarheid—

Suid-Afrika se beeldende kunstenaars kan interessante verwikkelinge verwag met betrekking tot die amptelike bevordering van die beeldende kuns. Dit blyk uit gegewens wat die Minister van Nasionale Opvoeding, mnr. T. N. H. Janson, verstrek het. Die belangrikste ontwikkeling is allig die oorweging wat tans geskenk word aan die moontlike aanstelling van ’n kommissie van ondersoek na die bevordering van en die geldelike steun aan die skeppende kunste.

With all due respect, I almost fell off my chair when I read this information, because I have in front of me a report of August 1977. Its heading is: Report of the Commission of Inquiry into the Performing Arts. The difference is that we are concerned with the plastic arts in the interview, whereas the report concerns the performing arts. This report was compiled under the chairmanship of none other than Mr. Niemand, a very competent person and the former Secretary for Community Development, who went with his commission to Britain, Belgium, the Netherlands, West Germany, Austria and Italy and took an enormous amount of trouble. They published a report of 122 pages, in which the following recommendations were made, inter alia—

Tax concessions should be granted to commercial concerns, industrialists and others in the financial world in respect of direct contributions to the performing arts. The Government should take urgent emergency measures …

Note this word—

This is a responsible commission which published a scientific report, and almost three years later we still have it in our hands without any word of reaction from the Government.

Now the hon. the Minister says that we are going to appoint another commission. Is this commission’s report also going to gather dust on the shelf?

Just as you are sitting on the shelf.

The truth of the matter is that the department—I shall define in a moment what I understand by this department—takes no real interest in the plastic and performing arts and has no desire to promote and develop them actively. When I refer to the department, I am not referring to the hon. the Minister, much less to the officials of the Advancement of Culture Branch, for I know them all personally. I know that they do their utmost with the meagre sum of money which is given to them to spend every year.

Where does the fault lie?

I lay the blame for this situation at the door of the Government as a whole. In 1977 minister A managed these affairs; in 1978, minister B; in 1979, minister C; and this year we have minister D.

It is not a D; it is a Punt.

We have already heard rumours that minister D is also going to leave us. [Interjections.] I do not know whether this is true. This matter has reached a crisis point. If the hon. the Minister is prepared to deny this, I should like to hear him doing so. Allow me to mention one case of what is happening in the Advancement of Culture Branch. The department has only one real art gallery. It is the largest art gallery in South Africa.

When are they going to put you in it? [Interjections.]

This is the museum which must take the lead with regard to the advancement, the development and the appreciation of art in South Africa. What does the person in charge of that institution say?

Fine him a pound. [Interjections.]

What does he say? [Interjections.]

Order!

Let me quote what he says. This is the senior official of the Advancement of Culture Branch of the Department of National Education. There are hon. members who are finding this extremely amusing, but of course they have no idea of what it is all about. [Interjections.] This is what the director says, and I quote again from Die Waarheid—

Hon. members will have to decipher this for themselves—

Hon. members can see what the consequences of this have been, even for the officials, who, as I have said, are not to blame for the fact that a situation of this kind has developed. The situation has developed because … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Johannesburg North began his speech on a negative note by constantly referring to the so-called document. I, too, held my breath for fear that he would follow the example of the hon. member for Pinelands and drag the Broederbond into this department, and blame the Broederbond for what is happening in education today.

The “Moedersbond”? [Interjections.]

The Broederbond. [Interjections.] It would, of course be very interesting to hear the opinion of the hon. member for Johannesburg North on the Broederbond. [Interjections.]

Order!

The hon. member devoted the rest of his speech to a discourse on the performing arts as well as the promotion of culture. I believe that the hon. the Minister will furnish him with a satisfactory reply in that respect.

Earlier in this debate the hon. member for Bloemfontein East paid tribute to the part universities are playing in South Africa. As a parallel to the role of universities, I should like to point out the part technikons are playing in South Africa. The designation “technikon” was introduced by means of a statutory amendment made in 1979. Technikons were formerly known as Colleges for Advanced Technical Education. Today there are already six technikons for Whites, in Cape Town, Johannesburg, Pretoria, Port Elizabeth, Vanderbijlpark, and one in Natal.

When we review the history of this country, it appears that, during the first 250 years after the settlement at the Cape, South Africa was principally a farming country. With the discovery of gold and diamonds, in 1860 and 1880 respectively, industrialization began to gain momentum, and there was a steadily increasing demand for technicians and artisans. It is also interesting to note that the first industrial school in South Africa was established by the NG Church as far back as 1895, in Uitenhage. This industrial school was principally responsible for indigent and neglected children. Technical and commercial education arose with the development of industries and mining and the expansion of these activities in the South African economy.

Furthermore the S.A. Railways was the first organization which, as far back as 1890, made a start with technical education. That happened here in Salt River, and subsequently in Kimberley, Uitenhage, East London, as well as in the Free State and the Transvaal. These institutions for commercial and technical education, which were also established by other organizations, were the forerunners of our present technikons. If we examine the courses being provided by these technikons today, we see that they are playing an important part in the human sciences, business management and administration, art, teacher training, language and communication, technology, electrical engineering, mathematics, mechanical engineering, the para-medical and biological sciences as well as building science. In 1978 the number of students attending technikons was 45 000, and this demonstrates to us that these technikons are playing a very important role. With the rapid economic development in South Africa there is a shortage of semi-skilled persons. A survey by the Department of Manpower Utilization points out that there is at present a shortage of more than 5% in the sphere of professional, semi-professional and technical workers. Since the establishment of the technikons, their envisaged role has expanded. [Interjections.] It is now accepted that it is the role of the technikons to provide technical education on the tertiary level, in actual fact all the levels after Std. 10. A very important report which appeared was that of the Van Wyk de Vries Commission. It is clearly stated in that report that the technikon has a role to play in South Africa, not in opposition to the universities, but in co-operation with them. Unfortunately a university degree is still a status symbol in South Africa today. Many of our students are studying at universities today and obtain degrees, but having completed their courses, they find it very difficult to find suitable positions. The Human Sciences Research Council, the HSRC, published an interesting report which points out that at least 5% of the technikons’ engineering technicians meet the requirements of university exemption and have the ability to obtain an engineering degree at a university. Against that it appears that according to their intelligence, aptitude and school achievements, failures among the first-year engineering students at universities are capable of obtaining an engineering diploma at a technikon. Engineering students who are unable to obtain a university degree are often not interested in further tertiary education. The time has arrived for us to explain the benefits of training at technikons to this group of students. It is also clear that in our preparation at school, including vocational guidance, we shall have to identify those who have a practical rather than an academic aptitude. They should then be urged to study at technikons. The community must also be educated not to attach value only to a university degree. They must also learn to encourage our students who are technically minded, to study at technikons.

As the status of technikons as institutions for tertiary education grows in the eyes of the public, greater realism in this respect will, we hope, alleviate our problems and we may be in a position to supplement our manpower shortage to a greater extent. It is true that the choice of a career is an important and intensely personal matter which also has long-lasting aftereffects. It is true that an individual’s entire personality is involved in this choice and that is why all possible assistance and guidance are necessary. Guidance from Above is also necessary for the believer. It is also important that, in the choice of a career, the country, the economy and the population should benefit from it, as well as from the high standard of education as it is being provided, inter alia, at the technikons.

Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank the hon. member for Alberton for his very important contribution in connection with technikons and the great needs in the field of tertiary education. I think the hon. the Minister will give satisfactory replies to his requests.

As I was listening to the contributions made by the Opposition today, I was reminded of a flock of vultures …

Watch it! Who do you think you are talking about?

… descending on a sleeping animal, only to discover that it is not a carcase and that there is nothing to prey on. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order! Is the hon. member allowed to refer to Opposition speakers as “a flock of vultures”?

Order! I do not think he said that. He said he was reminded of vultures. He did not say the hon. members were vultures.

[Inaudible.]

Mr. Chairman, if it would help, I shall withdraw it then. What is actually involved here is a covert political trick that is also being perpetrated in the Cape Provincial Council today by the MPC for Pinelands who, in that debating chamber, advocated equal education regardless of race or colour. They want all our schools to be thrown open and that is ultimately what they are advocating for South Africa in general. I do not believe that they really want to improve the condition of education. They are merely playing politics. They want to convert class-rooms into political platforms to give shape to their miserable party politics there. I am sorry that this matter has been dragged into the debate in this way, because the whole matter of education is a delicate one.

You are making a sorry spectacle of yourself. Why do you not sit down?

It is a pity that it has come to this. I have every confidence in the tact, the patience and the disposition of the hon. the Minister of National Education to do full justice to this matter. I am also very grateful that the hon. the Prime Minister has also entered the fray and I am sure that we shall ultimately find a meaningful solution to this matter.

I have read what an expert in the field of education wrote about the ideology of the Frankfurter-schule. He stated that this school of thought had not developed on account of a lack of education, but rather on account of a lack of upbringing. He said it was attributable to a lack of character and not to a lack of intellectual development. He said it was also attributable to a lack of spiritual maturity. He defined education as an exercise for the sake of man’s cultural destiny or the development of his personality and conscience. It is consequently concerned with an approach to life of which certainty is an essential component. For this purpose, a child has to become acquainted with his unique cultural background in his world of values, and he also has to be brought up in his own environment. He has, for the sake of a sense of security, to feel at home in his own environment so that he can hold his own in a strange environment.

That sounds very German to me; Prussian in fact.

That, I believe, is still the motto of South African education in the White schools where it is based on Christian National principles.

You remind me of a fascist.

The pride of our healthy White youth with their strong sense of discipline and their self-respect that is healthy to the core, bears testimony to the good work which the teachers are still doing in the schools today, and also to what is being preached in the lecture rooms of our universities. Let us salute these men and women for the good work they are doing, and let us also be grateful that this can still be characterized as the norm in this country of ours today.

Our educational planners of the ’seventies ensured that our system of education would offer the best and the most modern subject matter based on modern technology and the advanced professional world. These very aspects constitute real dangers to which I should like to draw the attention of the hon. the Minister today. I just wish to point out a few aspects of this modernization. The syllabuses and the methodology of the schools have been completely rewritten. It has indeed been so far-reaching that in-service training of teachers had to be resorted to in order to ensure that they would be able to give meaningful and correct guidance.

In the second phase, we proceeded to the introduction of a custodian system in order to obtain greater involvement on the part of parents in the educational programme. In my humble opinion, this was not a success. It further increased the already excessive burden on the teachers, but resulted in less involvement and fewer contributions on the part of parents in regard to matters concerning the child.

In the third phase, we proceeded to the introduction of the subject of youth preparedness. In this regard, the teachers also had to learn to carry out cadet duties, among school-girls as well, and how to maintain motor vehicles. They had to learn first-aid, fire-fighting, the use and maintenance of fire-arms, emergency planning and a programme to inculcate spiritual resilience with a view to the exigencies of the times in which we are living. They are doing so in order that they may be able to cope with the matter as it has been entrusted to them, and be able to answer for the whole programme. I wonder whether hon. members realize how versatile such a teacher has to be to be able to cover such a wide field at such short notice and to acquire complete proficiency in the various fields? But it did not end there. We even proceeded to the incorporation of an integrated period of activity in accordance with a compulsory programme, and this led to an extension of the school hours. This led to a burdening of the organization. Do hon. members know how much organization is required when 1 200 pupils are simultaneously involved in 56 different activity groups on a single terrain, and what physical demands such a professional exercise requires in order to make it meaningful and justifiable from an educational point of view?

In the fifth place, we embarked upon the establishment of additional teaching posts, without classroom facilities owing to a lack of funds during this period. They are satisfied with temporary buildings when these are available, but at present there is not even a classroom available for every teacher in South Africa. However, they do not mind being shifted around to available classrooms. They accept this in a good spirit. They are not protesting against this. They are not protesting in the sense that they are making a fuss in public about this. They are not going on strike about it, either. That is the attitude in which our teachers are performing their educational task.

They went further and, of their own accord, launched a parent-teacher-pupil-organization to convert the school premises into a personal environment of which they could be proud. If surveys were to be made of this matter we would make the astounding discovery that an amount of R30 000 per school per annum is being collected in this way. How is this money being spent? They undertake their own site development and beautification. They create their own sports facilities and cater for their own sporting equipment needs. They buy their own audio-visual apparatus in cases where the department cannot make adequate provision. They augment the supply of handbooks from these funds and expand the facilities of their libraries. They buy curtains, chairs and blacking out material. They even build parts of the building themselves, with the approval of the Department of Public Works. As a result of their efforts for the sake of the children, they have been dubbed beggars and scroungers. When these schools have been neatly planned and present a beautiful appearance, it is alleged that the Government appropriates far more money for White children and their education than for the other population groups. That is the spirit in which our teachers are working under this vast programme.

I wish to put a further matter to the hon. the Minister, about which I am concerned. There has to be a balance between an over-crammed and difficult syllabus for a school on the one hand, and the full burden already referred to, on the other hand. However, it seems to me as if this is getting out of bounds as regards the spiritual capacity of the teachers to bear this full burden. In making this very important survey of our educational system, it would be a good thing also to view this matter in its broad perspective. I wish to express my thanks for the fact that this is to be looked into, because owing to the scope of the syllabuses, the problem exists that the total volume of subjects such as geography, chemistry and physics, biology, mathematics and subjects with a practical component, is so vast that there is no opportunity for the practical side to which these subjects lend themselves, and as a result of that, congestion arises in connection with the full presentation of these subjects because justice cannot be done to these subjects since the meaningful component of education, namely the opportunity for a restful education in order to create a calm and secure person in his own environment to equip him for the future, is lacking.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Brentwood put in a good word for teachers and referred to matters which really fall outside the scope of the duties of teachers. He was referring to the qualities which go to make up a good teacher.

I should like to devote my time to another aspect of our educational system. Today the hon. member for Springs referred here to the handicapped, those with aural or visual disabilities, the cerebral-palsied, the epileptics, etc. Excellent work is being done in our country in the interests of these unfortunate people to see to it that in some way or other, no matter how elementary it may be, they will also be able to perform a task in life. Last year some of us were afforded an opportunity of visiting a few of these institutions in Pretoria, and I am convinced that all of us who were there, were deeply impressed with the work that was being done there. One comes to the conclusion that it is actually a pity that there are so many people, particularly among the general public, who are not aware of the work that is being done for these people. Unless one is personally involved, unless a member of one’s own family is such a person, or unless one is involved in the school, the work passes unnoticed and that is really a pity. Those of us who had that opportunity, were deeply impressed and I wish to say in passing that I hope we shall also be afforded an opportunity of visiting other similar institutions.

The modern facilities that are being provided for these institutions are worth seeing, but what certainly impressed us most was the patience and the dedication of the staff at those institutions. Working with such people really calls for patience and love for the cause. We can never be sufficiently grateful to those people.

There is another group of pupils that is easier to help, and consequently better able to do something in future. I wish to draw attention to them today. They are that group of pupils with a brain dysfunction, or as it is generally known, those who suffer from dyslexia. This is the type of pupil who is absolutely normal; he appears to be normal; one cannot notice anything wrong with him. On the contrary, their intelligence is normal and sometimes even above normal.

It is these children with a normal intelligence who purely as a result of a reading problem, have not been able to develop to their full potential in the past. This problem can only be discovered in the more advanced classes. If the problem can be identified at an early stage and assistance can be rendered, these pupils can also attain great heights of achievement. I should not be surprised if it should transpire that this has been the reason why so many children, boys and girls, who left school in the past before they had passed matric, had been unable to make progress. One often encounters the position where a parent tells one that he simply cannot understand the child. The child is intelligent; evidently there is nothing wrong with the child, the child is conscientious when it comes to school work; he can spend hours on his school work—but his results are simply such that he cannot make progress. This amounts to only one thing: The child cannot study properly, and he cannot study properly because he has a reading problem.

The time is past when young people who had not even passed matric, could perform a meaningful role in society. In this competitive life of ours, a person without matric simply cannot get anywhere today. In the interests of our country, every person should be developed to his greatest potential.

The solution to the problem lies, in the first place, in greater emphasis on preparation for remedial education; in other words, on the training of the teacher. In the second place, the problem can be remedied by means of more assistance from educational clinics. Approximately 80% of children who have problems, have to receive treatment in those clinics. The existing clinics are handicapped by a shortage of manpower. Furthermore, there are an insufficient number of clinics within the reach of the schools, particularly taking the vast rural areas into account. Some schools in the rural areas are miles away from the nearest clinic. I know of a school in one of our urban areas where it takes up to three months to get an appointment at the clinic for pupils who merely have normal emotional problems. I am not referring now to those with reading problems, but to those with normal emotional problems.

When dyslexia is diagnosed, parents must, in many cases, make use of private assistance. This poses a problem for parents who cannot afford it. What is the use of this problem having been diagnosed and knowing that the child requires attention if the necessary facilities are not available? The ideal is that every school should have at least one member of the staff who is trained in remedial education. There are far too few teachers with the necessary qualifications in this field to meet the existing need.

The reason for this is that there is insufficient inducement for teachers to qualify in this field. They have to obtain the additional qualifications of their own accord, but they do not get additional recognition for such qualifications. Particularly in a case where a teacher already has two diplomas, it serves no purpose, salary-wise, for him to acquire a third diploma. A teacher who wishes to specialize and acquire the DSE Diploma—in other words, who wishes to qualify as a special-class teacher—should undergo this type of training, because remedial education fits in 100% with the special-class education. In the absence of encouragement and recognition of qualifications there will, in future, be an insufficient number of teachers to meet this need.

In the same way as a pupil with defective sight can be assisted by means of a pair of spectacles, and in the same way as a pupil with a hearing defect or some other problem can be assisted, a pupil with a reading problem can also be assisted. Such a pupil is not mentally retarded. He merely has a reading problem, which can be solved by means of timely assistance. In the same way as the incidence of problems of sight, hearing and other similar problems are determined by means of periodical inspections at schools, the incidence of dyslexia should also be identified.

While there is a shortage of teachers with the necessary qualifications in this field, the best use has to be made of those who are indeed available. I wish to request that in order to achieve this, the possibility should be investigated of grouping schools together and appointing one teacher per group to assist the pupils of those schools. This could serve as an interim measure. In the second place, I wish to request that in future, this type of education should be included in the training for the DSE diploma. It should perhaps be made compulsory for that diploma. In the third place, I wish to request that teachers should be encouraged to obtain further qualifications in this field so that they can render assistance to these children, who are normal and who merely require a little bit of additional attention to enable them to occupy their proper positions in society.

Mr. Chairman, I wish to convey my thanks to all the hon. members who have taken part in the debate thus far. I am not going to repeat what has been said here. Often, when one starts replying to every question, there is so much repetition that everyone eventually gets bored. What I can say is that much that is of use to myself and my Department has come out of the discussion held here today.

There is particular appreciation for the way in which the annual report of the department has been read. In this regard I just wish to say to the hon. member for Pinelands that I have received a note from the department in which the secretary draws my attention to the fact that the hon. member had read the report and that we should thank him for doing so. It is always a tragedy when a great deal of trouble is taken to compile reports and one sees that they just gather dust, as the hon. member for Johannesburg North has said with regard to other reports. Other members have also shown that they have read the report. I do not know what goes on in other caucus groups, but I just wish to convey my sincere thanks to the management and the whole caucus group with which I have had the privilege of co-operating for the thorough way in which they have done their work.

I now wish to make a few general remarks concerning certain important matters in which some misunderstanding has arisen. I want to begin by disposing of the minor matters and then discussing a few more important matters which it would be useful to debate.

I want to begin by replying to the question put to me by the hon. member for Johannesburg North. I have been told that he, too, has belonged to secret societies in the past and he therefore knows that one has to be a man of one’s word. Another code which he will be aware of is the press code. A newspaperman who wrote one of these reports told me that he would tell me who it was who, according to his information, had issued the document, but that it had been told to him as the newspaperman …

That is in order.

If that is in order, then let us drop the point and I hope that this will be the last time this totally counterproductive matter is raised. Of course I do not differ in the slightest with the argument advanced by the hon. member for Durban Central and other hon. members that the Opposition has a duty to draw attention to matters of this nature. However, I believe that we are on the way to solving our problems. I believe that we are now in a position to put an end to unpleasantnesses that have existed for years. I believe that if we work at this in a positive spirit—and I can attest to the positive approach on the part of the negotiators who work with me—then we are going to succeed.

I want to make use of this opportunity to say that Mr. Colyn of the Commission of Administration, Mr. De Wet of my department, Mr. Steyn, the secretary of the Federal Council and other officials have done exceptionally valuable work over the past six months. I think that in the coming year we shall be able to start reaping the fruits of their labours and the work done before that if we continue to adopt a calm approach to the whole matter.

I shall refer at a later stage to the individual contributions of hon. members. I just wish to bring to the attention of hon. members the problems I have experienced in the department. These problems did not arise due to ill-will, negligence or any other negative factor. They occurred as the department developed over the years. Sometimes cases were dealt with on an ad hoc basis, but that was due to crisis situations that occurred from time to time. For example, I could ask hon. members whether they realize what sort of liaison existed with regard to salary scales. Now that we are going to discuss this whole matter it is by no means my intention to say something that will do violence to the image of the Federal Council, to whom I have given my word that I shall negotiate with them first and that I shall not discuss the matter in public. I just want to explain how the system has affected the department thus far. Who is concerned with liaison relating to salary scales, this matter about which we had to argue for an inordinately long period last year? I wish to furnish a brief reply in this connection.

In the first place, there has to be liaison with the Committee of Heads of Education. The Committee of Heads of Education comprises people from the various provinces. They have to be convened to determine salary scales for secondary and tertiary teachers. However, one cannot approach them about a matter if one does not also involve the Committee of University Principals. These two committees do not meet simultaneously. Each has its own problems. Each in turn has to be convened. They enjoy representation in the Federal Council of Teachers’ Associations. I should be obliged if the official Opposition in particular were to take note of this. I should like to know what the standpoint of the official Opposition is in this regard. I do not say this in a sarcastic way. I am merely stating it as a fact with which one is confronted. We are so quick to speak of the Federal Council as a body in which there is total unanimity. That is not so. I am not criticizing the recommendations made. What recommendations were put to the department after that protest meeting? The department did not receive anything officially. I heard it via the newspapers and I am still awaiting confirmation, although those reports have never been denied. That protest meeting under the leadership of the Transvaal Teachers’ Association set as point number one the demand that there should be parity for all teachers’ salaries. That was the first demand they are supposed to have made. I asked the Federal Council whether that was their primary demand, to which they replied in the negative because White teachers throughout the country know that that is impracticable. However, before one reacts to the recommendations of the Federal Council one has to have the opinions of all the different teachers’ associations. Then a decision must be taken on the basis of a majority or consensus, or must one wait until unanimity has been achieved?

Nor are they the only people for whose salaries we are responsible. We also pay the staff of the Technikons, and they, too, have to be consulted. We also have a University Advisory Committee which is an established council that has been recognized for years by the Government, which also has to be consulted about the matter. The procedure followed is that the department draws up the documents in question, after which they are sent to the other education control bodies. Then they come back to us with their comments. Do hon. members think that all the bodies will hold the same views? Our recommendations then go to the commission for administration and are discussed there. The commission afforded myself and the department outstanding co-operation. Then the recommendations go to the Treasury, where an allocation is made. Therefore it is not as simple a matter as it may sound. It is not simply a matter of taking a decision on salaries and having done with it. We shall have to eliminate unnecessary liaison. We are engaged in doing so, but please just give us a little time so that we can do so in a calm atmosphere.

In that connection let me say to the hon. member for Johannesburg North that he is of course right—he need not even have put it so sharply—that there was a recommendation in 1977 which has not yet been implemented. He also referred to the recommendation made in 1979 and asked why there should still be a commission. The reason why the recommendation was not implemented was that by law, the report has to go to the provinces for their independent comment. Subsequently their comment has to be gone through to determine where there is consensus and where not. For the most part there is no consensus. Then a new document has to be drafted and again sent to the provinces. The hon. member asked why this took so long. It took so long because it had to be done by correspondence in that way. We have established a commission to eliminate the red tape so that the whole matter can be discussed at one meeting and a decision taken. This also applies in other spheres. There are 101 authorities that have come into being for good reasons over the years, but which, with the passing of time, have caused a problem situation which we can no longer afford.

Let me tell hon. members another interesting thing. I am not aware of one tenth of what goes on. One has first to become involved in it as the officials have become involved in it over the years.

We are now discussing the National Education Vote. According to the presentation, programme 1: Administration, is allocated 0,64% of the total amount of R407 million. This has increased somewhat. The universities get 61,31%; vocational education, 16,85%, and education of the handicapped, for which the hon. members for Port Elizabeth Central and Springs made such fine pleas, 7,82%. Children in need of care receive 2,38%. Contrast this—and I am now specifically addressing the hon. member for Johannesburg North—the deficiency we have experienced over the years, that we have even seen reflected in our debates in this House, namely the question of advancement of culture. The percentage of this entire vote allocated to advancement of culture is a mere 4,06. We must realize that advancement of culture includes all those things for which various people have made pleas. There are authors that have to be assisted. Our own Afrikaans authors must be encouraged. This includes all the other things which the concept of culture involves. Over the years the priorities have developed in such a way that the percentages are these that can be allocated from this appropriation.

For supporting services—i.e. the Human Sciences Research Council and others—only 5% has been voted. These are bodies that perform scientific work of a high quality. It is tragic that the total allocation for the promotion of sport—hon. members who will take part in the debate at a later stage will discuss this—is a mere 0,77%. Sport promotion also falls under the Department of National Education. Only 0,3% of the total amount voted is allocated for the purposes of recreation, for which an hon. member made a plea here last year. This is for pupils who go camping, etc. Therefore it is clear that we shall have to begin to give serious consideration to how we are going to give effect to our own rationalization within this department, in conjunction with the hon. the Prime Minister’s programme of rationalization, and work out a new approach, an approach along the existing lines, but at least one which will be adapted to the demands of the times and will give us the answers to questions such as those asked by a number of hon. members.

†I should like to reply now to some of the points raised by the hon. member for Pinelands. I have already dealt with the question —perhaps not satisfactorily—of the so-called crisis situation. We shall try to solve the unhappy situation. I believe it is our bounden duty, and we shall try to solve it in every possible way, with the assistance of everyone interested in education as such. I should like, however, to correct one impression immediately. Several hon. members have dealt with the so-called commission of inquiry. I should like now to make a few points clear. I do not think it was ever mentioned—not in the Press statement or anywhere else—that this was to be a commission of inquiry. I shall give the reasons why this shall not be a commission of inquiry. A commission of inquiry can only be appointed in terms of the Commissions Act. Those hon. members who have legal training will know better than I do that there are certain requirements that have to be met before a presidential commission can be appointed. There are legal points of various kinds that have to be met.

One of the main objections I have to a presidential commission is the time it takes to bring out a report. That means that one cannot put the recommendations into practice as one goes along. One has to wait for the final report, and that always takes extremely long to appear, as hon. members will know from experience with commissions that have brought out reports in the past. Therefore we are still considering ways and means of overcoming this impasse. We want to see if it is not possible to get the results quicker by using other ways and means. This I promised to the Federal Council. I promised that I would discuss the matter with them fully before making any announcement in this regard, or at least, the announcement will be made by the Federal Council. It also has to tie up with what the hon. the Prime Minister has said, viz. that an in-depth study of education in respect of all the peoples of South Africa has to be undertaken. Education cannot be seen in isolation. We also have to deal with it in the light of the “Manpower 2000” programme. Therefore it will involve a lot of hard work, and I do not want the impression to be created that we have already appointed a commission of inquiry which will solve, in just a few seconds all the problems that have been created over so many years.

I also want to reply to his remarks about resignations and the shortage of teachers, especially in certain subjects.

*Here I must refer to figures which I found stunning. Nevertheless the figures are official. The predecessor of the HSRC carried out a study overseas and published a report which today is still regarded as a very scientifically prepared report. In that study report they referred to the shortages in certain fields in overseas countries, and large-scale shortages in all the countries of the world. At that time the council was still the National Bureau for Educational and Social Research. I refer to the figures for 1965, contained in the Bureau’s research series No. 25. It indicates that the existing shortages of teachers in the natural sciences in South African high schools is 16,1%. This concerns unsatisfactorily filled posts throughout the country. As far as I know, the caucus group of the NP has never discussed this matter, or at any rate, not in my time. As far as the biology subjects are concerned, the figure was 16,9%. That was as long ago as 1965. Therefore this has not suddenly become a crisis. It has existed over the years.

It has become worse.

In its research series No. 24 the Bureau found a shortage of mathematics teachers in the Transvaal of 71,8%. That was in 1965. When I inquired about this matter and said that this was impossible, I was informed that a person with three years’ mathematics and an education diploma was regarded as a properly qualified person. On that basis there was already a shortage of 71,8% in 1965. For the Cape the figure was 60,4%; Natal, 78,6%; the Orange Free State, 66,9% and Education, Arts and Science, 37,9%. Therefore in all these fields there has been a shortage of people in education. I should like to associate myself with what the hon. member for Standerton had to say. It is not my task to work this out, because I am not an expert in this field, but I think we shall have to consider as a top priority making use of women with the necessary aptitude for mathematics. They must be afforded the opportunity to take mathematics. In that regard the position of women in education must be given careful consideration when a commission is appointed to investigate the whole matter. To sum up, I just wish to say that about 24% of the qualified mathematics teachers at that stage had had no training in the method of teaching their specific subject. This is a disquieting picture, and I can only say that it is going to deteriorate steadily in the years that lie ahead. We shall have to devote a great deal of serious thought and work to finding solutions, with the aid of the investigations by Manpower 2000 in this connection. However, I can assure the hon. member that this is indeed being worked on. In our department we are working on a projection programme for the next 30 years, and the provisional reports show that outstanding work has been done by this project committee. I hope to be able to say more about this shortly.

The hon. member also referred to the appointment of female teachers at Black schools. This is a provincial matter. If he writes a letter to me in this connection and in connection with section 84, then we can go into the matter further. What we are then unable to resolve across the floor of this House, we shall try to resolve by way of correspondence.

The hon. member for Hercules, the chairman of the education group, has done a great deal of hard work for us over many years. I thank him for his very thorough exposition of the situation he has experienced in education as a member of the teaching profession. In connection with the matter of the gifted child, I just wish to say to him that an official has been appointed in the Cape to do more work on the education of gifted children. However, I cannot give him a congenial answer as far as the problems in connection with payment are concerned. Teachers are paid by the provinces. Fortunately, an old friend of mine who is a former Administrator is sitting in this House. I hope to bring to the attention of the hon. member for Koedoespoort the hon. member’s remarks about what goes on in the provinces. I shall ask them to please shake matters up so as not to give the department a bad name.

The hon. member for Durban Central always makes an interesting contribution and I always find it interesting to listen to him and to hear what he has to say about a subject on which he is an authority. However, what I simply cannot understand is that he quotes statistics, because it has already been asked how on earth one can work out percentages. I want to appeal to hon. members that we should get away from percentages. One can prove anything with percentages. I tried to acquaint myself with the salary structures, and for this purpose I obtained percentages, but they varied from 6% to 66%. One can prove anything with statistics. Therefore I do not understand the hon. member.

Figures do not lie.

“Figures do not lie” says one of my colleagues, but in my opinion drawing such comparisons gets us nowhere. Let me say that the Federal Council and other bodies have already asked that we should refrain from drawing comparisons based on percentages, because it does not get us any further.

The hon. member for Virginia did some of my work for me by referring to the functional committee that is operating in the department. The advice which he and others in the teaching profession who have served on the association have put at our disposal, makes it far easier for the department to proceed with the solution of the problem.

To our female colleague, the hon. member for Germiston District, whose contribution always add lustre to the proceedings, I want to convey my sincere thanks for her plea on behalf of the teacher. The hon. member for Brentwood also spoke about this. I am in agreement with them and also with the hon. member for Gezina as regards the tremendous demands made on the teachers, and I want to convey the Government’s sincere thanks to them for what they have done for the country to be of assistance to the Government.

To turn to the hon. member for Standerton, I want to say he makes me a little sad. I think that if there is anyone who could qualify as the Don Juan of Parliament, it is the hon. member for Standerton. In any event I am sure that he will not reproach me for my honesty if I tell him that he could become a Don Juan as a result of his plea, but that as far as his looks are concerned he looks too much like me. [Interjections.] I could inform him—perhaps it is still not generally known—that in this year’s budget we were able to go a little further as regards the position of women in education. As regards schools, Head S1, I can say that whereas in the past women have occupied the posts, from this year they will be placed on an equal footing and will occupy equal posts. An effort is being made on the part of the department to bring about parity at a lower level, too, partly as a result of representations made. The female staff will of course benefit considerably from the fact that the thirteenth monthly salary which is now paid, is substantially higher than the R130 limit which was previously imposed on the payment of vacation savings bonuses to single female teachers.

As far as the hon. member for Bloemfontein East is concerned I wish to say that I should like to read his contribution again because whereas the universities, together with the technikons, are going to be of profound importance to us in the future, that type of valuable, well-considered and researched contribution is of great value to us as a department, and I therefore thank him wholeheartedly for it. The hon. member will of course be aware that there is a committee of the Universities Advisory Council which investigates university financing on an ongoing basis. We hope to get another report from them by June this year.

In a very well-considered speech, the hon. member for Durban North raised the question of special schools. I am not going to enter into a dispute with him—nor does he probably expect me to—about a special school for all races. I do not want us to place an emphasis on race only or have the situation where we get no further unless we drag in colour. All people, particularly handicapped people, have a right to sympathetic treatment and I can promise him that if he wishes to write to us in this connection the matter will be investigated.

†However, I want to refer the hon. member to the report of the Committee of Heads of Education. I do not know whether he has yet received a copy, but in this report he will see that we have several of these committees.

*The hon. member for Brentwood discussed curricula. There is a committee which works on curricula on a full-time basis and there is also a committee concerned with the treatment of handicapped children. In this connection I also wish to say to the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central that we shall send his written representations, with great appreciation for his co-operation, to the committee for their consideration and I am sure that his representations will be considered sympathetically.

I note that the hon. member for Somerset East is not in the House at present. However, I think I can convey to him in his absence on behalf of all hon. members our appreciation for a man who remains at his post under all circumstances and, under the most difficult circumstances, shows what it means to continue to fulfil one’s calling for as long as it is given one to do so.

Hear, hear!

Even if only by way of a tribute to his contribution here today I personally shall see to it that consideration is given as soon as possible to declaring that building a national monument, and I shall make it known that the plea came from our friend Hoffie van der Spuy.

I wish to thank the hon. member for Gezina for his contribution concerning the partnership between child, parent and school, and particularly the involvement of our teachers in extramural activities. I think that the teachers and the department will take note with appreciation of what he said.

I have already replied in part to the hon. member for Springs, but I should also like him to put his suggestions concerning the epileptic and autistic children, in writing so that what he advocated can be on record elsewhere besides Hansard. I have already dealt with the hon. member for Johannesburg North, and therefore all that remains is to deal with the hon. member for Alberton. I want to apologize for having been outside the House for a moment, but the note I have in connection with his speech reads—the hon. member will know what it means—that he made a good contribution and that appreciative note is taken of the study he made of the subject which was evident from his speech. I have already replied to the hon. members for Brentwood and Port Elizabeth Central, and with that I think that I have replied, wholly or in part, to all the hon. members who have taken part in this debate. I undertake to read hon. members’ Hansard and also to have it read by the many committees so that we shall be able to reply to questions which I perhaps failed to reply to in full. I wish to conclude by conveying my sincere thanks to hon. members for their contributions. I hope that we shall be able to discuss the teaching profession up to the tertiary level, and culture in particular, in happier circumstances next year.

Mr. Chairman, I do not think it would be presumptuous of me to tell the hon. the Minister that I found it a great pleasure to listen to his replies, comments and explanations. I want to congratulate him on the way in which he has handled his Vote so far this evening.

When one refers to the financing of the young or small university, it occurs to one that in the year 1976-’77 there were three such universities which had about 2 500 students each. The University of Port Elizabeth was one of them. At the end of 1975, the university was notified that the existing financing formula would be changed as from 1 January 1981.

This immediately meant that we were faced with great problems and would be faced with problems in the future, for when it comes to a legal relationships at a university, we are actually concerned with long-term contractual agreements; in other words, agreements which cannot easily be changed or drastically amended in the short run, or one will land oneself in serious trouble. And because we had to rationalize, we were subsequently forced to abolish 32 posts, and we were obliged, because of the outcry that resulted from this, to reintroduce 14 of those posts. Therefore we are concerned here with relationships which have to be handled very carefully.

However, we have other problems as well. We have the problem of library supply, we have the problem of operating expenditure for the maintenance of the campus, and we also have the problem of non-subsidized expenditure, and of making ends meet in this connection, but our real problem lies in the proposed new formula which will apply in our case. It is the formula which applies to other old, established universities, plus a J-factor, i.e. plus an addition. In terms of this formula it appears that by the end of 1981 we shall be faced with a deficit of R255 000 in respect of subsidized expenditure and R995 000 in respect of nonsubsidized expenditure.

This does not mean that the university is bankrupt, as people may easily allege, but it simply means that very large and definite inroads will have to be made on the important trust funds of our university. However, we must always bear in mind that in order to develop as we should, a university has to enjoy the general confidence of the public, which means confidence on the part of schools, the prospective students, the parents of prospective students, the alumni, as well as the donators and prospective donators. In the Eastern Cape we are actually faced with special problems as well.

To summarize the whole matter, I want to say that in terms of the new formula—and the figures have been more or less checked— our allowance from the State will be reduced by R1,3 million at the end of 1981. We have to evaluate this deficit in the light of the special circumstances which a relatively young university has to contend with. I shall refer briefly to just a few of them.

The first is in connection with the financing of residences. I think it is the general policy that such financing takes place on a 50:50 basis. It now appears that the old universities receive a subsidy of approximately R133 a bed to redeem their capital and interest, and they themselves must contribute a more or less similar amount. When it comes to the young universities, the State contributes much more. It contributes about R256 a bed on average, but the problem lies in the fact that the university itself has to contribute a similar amount per bed; in other words, the young university also has to contribute almost R123 a bed more than the established university.

There are other problems as well, such as the one relating to the maintenance costs of the campuses. The fact that the new formula is based on the number of students in our case will mean that a university with 3 000 students, which normally has the same essential expenditure as a university with 5 000 students, will have a much smaller income, although it will have the same essential expenditure as a larger university.

In respect of general expenditure to which I have already referred, such as the creation of a good library, there is a further problem. Here one may refer to the De Vries Commission, which states it as an ideal that a small university should have the same library facilities as a large university.

We may also refer to the special problems of the Eastern Cape, namely that during the recession years, which are mercifully past, there was unemployment in that area. There were empty houses and fewer students. While we could boast an impressive growth rate in 1976-’77, this declined drastically because of the recession, over which none of us had any control.

We have special problems there, and one says this with great compassion, in respect of this splendid institution in an industrial city, something in which we take infinite pride and in respect of which we want to pay tribute to the department and the State. There are socio-economic problems as well. It may be said that we should perhaps considerably increase the university fees and boarding fees, but we have not been able to do so. However, we may be forced to do so.

I want to say at once on this occasion that we are not blaming the Government, the Department or the hon. the Minister for our problems, because they are the problems of a relatively young and small university.

I may try to make out a case on this occasion and perhaps give the hon. Minister something to consider, and that is whether we cannot perhaps retain the status quo for the following year in respect of the financing formula which used to apply to the University of Port Elizabeth and will apply to the end of this year. Secondly, I want to ask whether this existing formula cannot also be retained until such time as a new financing formula has been developed which will provide for the continued financing of the university during its present stage of being a small university, until it has achieved an enrolment of 4 500. If the hon. the Minister would consider making these concessions to our university, I want to ask him whether he would not make a Press statement in this connection as soon as possible.

Mr. Chairman, before coming to the subject I actually want to deal with, I first want to associate myself very briefly with the hon. member for Durban North. I think there is a great deal of merit in the idea that special, comprehensive, in-depth attention should be given to the position of the private schools and that the situation should not be handled only on an ad hoc basis.

I actually want to talk about the financing of universities, and in this connection I want to endorse what was said by the hon. member for Newton Park, who advanced a very good argument in favour of this matter. I support it, but I just want to place a somewhat different emphasis on it. It is basically concerned with the formula which is used for the financing of the universities. This links up with the general position which is now known, namely that the numbers of White young people going to university in the future will drastically decline, according to all projections, during the 1980s, in any event. It is also a fact that the formula which is used to determine the funds to be given to a university on a subsidy basis relies on the student numbers. When one considers that some universities derive up to 76% of their revenue from the State subsidy, it is clear how important the aspect of student numbers is. The number of students not only determines the amount which the university is going to receive for teaching staff, but also indirectly the amount which the university is going to receive for administrative, technical and library staff, as well as library, scientific and other equipment and aids. As far as the subsidy formula is concerned, it seems to me important to note that not enough attention is being given to the principle that a basic amount is needed by all universities, irrespective of their size. The present formula means that a university will be able to keep pace with the inflation rate and with the inevitable increase in the expenditure it has to incur every year only if it can show a stable and considerable annual increase in the student numbers. According to all expectations, as I have already indicated, no university, large or small, will be able to show such an increase in its student numbers. This problem is affecting the smaller universities in particular. I am not going to advance any more arguments in this connection, because I think the hon. member for Newton Park clearly illustrated the principles in this connection. I öust want to point out briefly that a university with 3 000 students will receive about half the subsidy of a university with 6 000 students. Surely it is quite clear that the university with 3 000 students will not incur only half the expenditure of the university with 6 000 students.

I have taken cognizance of the hon. the Minister’s reference to the Universities Advisory Council. On page 29 of the latest annual report, on which I want to compliment the department, I also read the following remark—

This is the Universities Advisory Council—

We are very grateful for that. I think it is urgently necessary. As far as I know, however, a final decision has not yet been taken about this matter. I want to say that it is high time this whole matter was investigated, especially from the point of view of the smaller universities. Accordingly, I make bold to suggest that the subsidy formula be amended in such a way that a realistic calculation should be made, as a point of departure, of the total costs, including administrative costs, involved in offering a basic number of subjects at a university, irrespective of the size of that university. As soon as this figure has been determined and the university is receiving its subsidy on that basis, adjustments can be made for the future based on the number of students at the various universities.

Actually I am directly involved with Rhodes University in Grahamstown. In certain respects, this university has experienced more problems than the other smaller universities of which we are aware. This is mainly due to the fact that until fairly recently, if indeed it is not still the case, the other two smaller universities received a special allowance by virtue of the fact that they were still young and developing universities. Rhodes University has never received such an allowance, for as hon. members know, Rhodes University is already 75 years old. This has created a twofold problem, not only in the sense that Rhodes University does not receive that special allowance, but also in the sense that the university’s buildings are much older than those of most other universities, which means that much more has to be spent on repairs.

As far as the decline in student numbers is concerned, Rhodes University is faced with a further problem in the sense that the number of pharmacy students, who have hitherto constituted 14% of the university’s total number of students, and the number of Rhodesian students, who have hitherto constituted 12% of the university’s total number of students, are expected to decline because of the very good work done by the technikons. We may also expect a great reduction in the number of students from Zimbabwe who will henceforth enroll at Rhodes University. In addition, the university has the problem that it is hampered, in comparison with other universities, as far as its fund-raising is concerned, because the area in which the university is situated is not a major industrial area, as is the case with the other universities. I am not saying that other areas are not also willing to contribute to the university, but naturally they are more willing to contribute to the universities in their own areas.

In spite of these problems which Rhodes University has had and will continue to have, I am glad to be able to testify that the university has in fact contributed its share and has succeeded, during the past five years at least, which have been crisis years, in balancing its books. This is due in particular to good and effective administration, and in this connection I must pay tribute to the very good work done by the present principal, Dr. Henderson, and his staff. However, their books have been balanced at the expense of the replacement reserve of the university, and anyone who reflects on this for a moment will realize that if one does something at the expense of one’s replacement reserve, one is bound to have problems sooner or later. It has also been done at the expense of the provision of certain facilities, especially library facilities and other instruments, as well as reasonable teaching burdens. It is clear that they cannot go on in this way for too long, because the morale of the students and the teaching staff will suffer.

I make no apology for pleading the cause of a small university, for in the words of the principal of the university, “small is beautiful”. This gives valid expression to certain advantages which one finds only at a small university.

The hon. member for Pinelands, who is not here at the moment, recently took part in an election campaign at the university, which he lost. I wonder whether he is going to blame that on the Broederbond as well.

You can blame anything on the Broederbond.

Mr. Chairman, it is an absolute privilege to speak after the previous two hon. members who have spoken. They have raised a matter which has very great merit. It is not only the smaller or the new universities, such as the University of Port Elizabeth, that are experiencing this problem. There is a problem developing concerning the formula for university financing. A few years ago, after the proposals of the Van Wyk de Vries Commission, there were people who were enthusiastic about the idea that the formula should be based on the number of students and post-graduate students. However, something has happened in South Africa which has disturbed the balance, namely the sudden drop in White births. I quote what Dr. Fanie Steyn, secretary of the A.R.U. said in a speech about a year ago—

He went on to say that this had led to two new universities being established in the country.

Although we may say that we were unrealistic, we are faced with the reality that communities now have their own universities, and that certain universities have proceeded with capital plans. We cannot get rid of those universities. Therefore it is our duty to try to solve these new problems. Consequently I believe that the matter should be urgently investigated. The University of Port Elizabeth has a very difficult problem and Rhodes University probably has an even more serious problem.

I want to ask the hon. the Minister, therefore, whether a special investigation can be undertaken to ascertain what assistance can be offered.

Business suspended at 18h30 and resumed at 20h00.

Evening Sitting

Mr. Chairman, before I proceed, I should like to associate myself with the hon. the Minister and other hon. members who have congratulated Dr. Van Wyk on his appointment to his new position.

The hon. member for Standerton referred earlier today to women in education. He referred to a lady—I suppose it was a married lady—who taught English and not one of whose pupils had failed over a period of five years. The hon. member said that what made him unhappy was the fact that she did not receive the same remuneration as her male counterpart. The problem with regard to married women in education is really a vexed one. However, when we compare men and women teachers and their circumstances, we find that married women in particular are mostly appointed to temporary positions, something which also means that even if she taught for five years, she would not be entitled to long leave at the end of that period, while her male colleague and the unmarried woman in education, who have been serving with her on the same staff for five years, will in fact be entitled to long leave, even for a full term.

People often talk about the onslaught on South Africa. We all know that some people believe that South Africa is frustrating the aims of other world powers, world powers that are trying to conduct a total strategy against us. One of the ways of forcing a country to surrender is to isolate it. This can be done on the physical as well as the intellectual level. When we talk about means of defending ourselves, we involuntarily think first of the conventional methods, such as a larger, better and more effective defence force, or even a diplomatic action. Seldom if ever do we really seriously consider what I would call a true brainpower offensive. The academic world, whether purely scientific or merely humanistic, knows no boundaries.

†Academic excellence cannot be denied or ignored. This is why I believe that part of South Africa’s defence against hostile forces should not merely lie in reliance on our military strength or diplomatic offensives, but also an attainment of academic excellence. Then, of course, we should also go one step further and see to it that we obtain international recognition for that academic excellence. A year ago I listened to a speech by the same Dr. Steyn to whom I referred earlier. In that speech he mentioned that, in 1978, according to a conservative estimate, South African students and lecturers had published some 5 000 scientific publications. Of those 5 000 odd publications approximately 4 000 had been distributed overseas.

It is further estimated by Dr. Steyn that if 100 people who are authorities in their field of study should have read only one of those articles or publications that were distributed one would ultimately reach 500 000 other people in important positions. It is further estimated that in order to undertake such studies and create the circumstances in which the said 5 000 articles or publications could be produced, the State had to pay approximately R30 million. To reach at least 500 000 people who really matter therefore costs the State approximately R60 a head. I cannot think of a better investment. I know that dedicated scientists and outstanding scholars are essentially well motivated. Whether they work exclusively for the sake of science or for the sake of study does not really matter. Even if it is done merely for materialistic gain it is still does not matter. In view of the particular circumstances in which we in South Africa find ourselves, I still believe that here we can encourage people and create a climate to increase their motivation. Whenever one comes across an authoratitave article by a South African, or encounters research done by a South African, one realizes how this helps to create a favourable image of this country. I do not have any particular suggestion to make. All I am saying is that here we have a field in which we can work, a field in which to try to create a greater awareness of this particular international market, if I may call it that, for the sake of South Africa. I think there is indeed an onus on the State. Whether we introduce some special fund or incentive for this, the idea is to lead people on to greater excellence and success, thus helping South Africa. That is all I wish to say.

Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to react to what the hon. member for Durban Central said—I hope he will forgive me—because I wish to use the limited time at my disposal to raise two matters very briefly. The first is concerned with the status and grading of technical colleges and technical institutes, and the second with the creation of a technikon in the Tygerberg area. In secondary education the principal task is probably generally formative education and tuition in limited vocationally orientated fields of study. On the other hand the function of our tertiary education lies principally on the level of manpower development and the full utilization of human capital. Present and future manpower needs determine the extent of tertiary education to the greatest extent. We are presently living in a period where an explosion in the field of manpower development has actually occurred. We also find that technikons have now, after a struggle lasting many years, come into their own as tertiary educational institutions, in the sense that they are today autonomous institutions without a ceiling restricting their activities. Their academic post structure befits their status as post-school tertiary educational institutions.

Technical colleges and technical institutes have, probably until quite recently, been regarded as the step-children of education. One could not help feeling that their contribution to manpower development in the Republic was never really assessed at its true value. I think the awarding of school status to these colleges and institutions was probably the most degrading and negating factor that ever existed. The status of an educational institution is probably determined to a large extent by the grading of the principal’s post, and the highest grading that the head of a technical college or an institute can receive at the moment is that of a high school principal S1, irrespective of the amount of tertiary work done by that college or institution. Some of them are even graded as vice-principals of high schools, although their rank is that of a principal. There is a ray of light, however, for I understand that the Schmidt report has already been taken through almost all the stages of approval and that it is presently subject to the approval of the hon. the Minister, the date of implementation being 1 June 1980, at least as far as the college with which I am involved, the Tygerberg Technical College, is concerned. For us a new post-structure is at least being envisaged now, although I do not think that the position of the principal is being adjusted in this process. However, the Schmidt report dates back to the year 1972 and is perhaps in some respects obsolete. Perhaps it has not kept pace with developments. A senior official of the department of the hon. the Minister, for whom we personally have very great regard, said about 14 days ago at a great occasion for our college—and I quote him verbatim—

In view of the time that has elapsed, I believe that these recommendations are already with the Director-General. One really hopes, then, that these findings will be made public as soon as possible and that they will be implemented.

I now wish to deal with the question of the Tygerberg area and our plea for a technikon in that area. I wish to begin by expressing my special thanks to the hon. the Minister that he was able to attend the inauguration of our new campus at the Tygerberg Technical college in spite of his full programme. Consequently this institution is to him no longer something that merely exists on paper, because he has seen the buildings and facilities there with his own eyes. The hon. the Minister made a speech at the end of last year on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the Free State Technical College in Bloemfontein and in that speech he said that he believed that as far as Bloemfontein was concerned the situation had developed where Bloemfontein and the Free State had every right to lay claim to a technikon. He based this on the fact that at the end of last year there were already 415 full-time and 221 part-time students taking tertiary courses at that college. I do not wish to quarrel with the hon. the Minister on that score. On the contrary. We, on our part, also welcome the idea tremendously that, in spite whatever limitations there may be, he foresees the establishment of additional technikons. Consequently, when I make my plea for Tygerberg, I am not doing it at the expense of Bloemfontein. Yet when one compares the data, one finds that the area served by the Tygerberg College is twice that of Bloemfontein. It is twice that of Bloemfontein with regard to the total White population which it serves and it is also twice that of Bloemfontein as far as the high schools and primary schools in the area are concerned. Then one is omitting to mention the outside area which it serves, for at this stage we are drawing students from all over the country. We are just afraid that the opinion may be expressed—such opinions are in fact expressed from time to time—that the establishment of another technikon in the Cape Peninsula is not a practical proposition. In fact, I think that the department has already indicated that, since there is a technikon in Cape Town at present, the establishment of further technikons in this vicinity cannot be considered for the present. I think the department should much rather have made this decision in future, after having made a national manpower survey, indicating the need for technical education on such a high level. I do not want to go too far into the figures, except to indicate that as far as the Tygerberg Technical College is concerned, 531 hours of tuition is at this stage being offered after matriculation. There are already 250 full-time students and 400 part-time students following pure post-matriculation courses for diploma purposes. This excludes those who are following short training and retraining courses in certain technical directions. A limit is set on the number of students in our institution because the department, perhaps for understandable reasons, would not at this stage allocate us more staff, because they cannot work on expected figures. In addition we have only recently moved into our new building complex.

I should like to say at once that with the restrictions which are imposed on colleges such as ours, specific tertiary courses cannot be offered. Here I am thinking specifically of para-medical courses, since the college is situated in an area where some of our largest hospital complexes are concentrated. I am also thinking of advanced technical courses, because the college is situated in a vast industrial area. All these things demonstrate the real need of the community for such an extended facility. In recent years we have rightly found that there is also a cost argument. As far as this college is concerned, I can just say—and the hon. the Minister has seen it—that we have the infrastructure and the grounds for expansion. The report of the Van Wyk de Vries Commission some time ago recommended the establishment of more technikons. In fact, it even went so far to say—I am speaking under correction now—that there should be at least two technikons for each university, because of the great need for technical education. Now we have the situation … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to express a few very modest opinions concerning the status of the teacher in our times. I want to do so in a positive sense, because I think we need that in the present climate. There should be a positive spirit on the part of all the parties concerned.

When I go to visit my bank manager with my little bag containing some of the fruits of my labours, I hand it to him with the request that he should take it into safe custody for me and invest it as profitably as possible, but on condition that it is safe. Therefore my bank manager occupies a position of great trust. I entrust the fruits of my labour to him. When I walk to school in the morning with a six-year-old child at my side, to have him enrolled at the nearest school, I am figuratively telling the school principal: “Here is the highest and most precious fruit of my existence, and I should like to entrust it to you this morning.” The most precious thing which I, as a member of this generation, can hand on to the generations to come, and to my own future as well, is the potential quality of my descendants. I expect the teacher to hand on to the future, and to the generation that comes after me, a developed mind, synchronized with diligent hands. What is more, I expect him to hand on to the future not only the clever child, in a fairly relative sense, but especially the one with character, who knows the meaning of honesty, loyalty, responsibility, respect and civilization. It is an almost superhuman task. The value of the position of trust which education occupies in the life of a community and of a people is almost incalculable. Therefore it is my standpoint, figuratively speaking, that we can never adequately remunerate the teacher. This is a strategic profession, which lays claim to the maximum amounts from the State, and the State which fails to recognize this is guilty of irresponsible conduct.

In the years during which the character of that child is being moulded, the responsibility of the teacher is greater than that of his own parent, which is an enormous responsibility. There is not one of us sitting here tonight who cannot remember with great piety the teacher who helped to fashion his character and personality. Personally I have the greatest gratitude and respect for them, and I still derive very great strength from the example of my teachers and the influence they exercised. I should like to call to mind the renascence of the symbolic meaning of the Master, in his elevated position on the terrace of life, and glittering in the sun of civilization. That is where I see the image of the Master. I think it is (justified to bring home to the teaching profession the value which this State and this Government attach to its profession and its office. We recognize, figuratively speaking, that we shall never be able to pay them what they deserves. Perhaps one should appeal to all the communities which the teachers serve today, to come forward and to help us burnish this image of the teacher, so that it may shine again, reminding us in this way of the spiritual sculptor of that school or community.

In the old days, the teacher was also a preacher, a sick-comforter, and a doctor, apart from his role of moulding children’s characters. It is time the teacher occupied that position again, so that he may, through the infrastructure of his school, transmit his rays of light to his community, to the people, also through the channels of those characters he has moulded. We ask the communities to help us to burnish that image, with the aid of parent associations and through their recognition of the value of the teacher. Parents should not go to school only because their little boy is going to run the 100 metres or is going to play in the under-thirteen team. Parents should go out of respect for the teacher and what he does. Then it will not be necessary for the teacher to lay claim to status and prestige for himself, if the local communities, parent associations and school committees work to further this aim. The community will single him out and the honorary title of status and prestige will not have to be bought with a salary, but will be earned by him through his contribution in practice and the way he shapes the future. The communities, the parent associations and the school committees must help us. I expect that through this commission of inquiry which is to be appointed, all parties involved will make the contribution required by our times in the spirit and in the light of this image. I want to tell the teachers: “Rest assured. We value you more than words can say.” The teachers must help us to create a situation through this commission, with the report which will follow, where it will never again be necessary for them to allow their noble profession to be commercialized. We know that the teachers also have to live, but to base such an elevated profession primarily on income and expenditure is, in my humble opinion, to do an injustice to the nobility of that profession.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Witwatersberg has delivered a very moving address concerning the status of teachers. I must confess that the hon. the Minister of Co-operation and Development has found a rival for his descriptive phrases. I am only sorry that the television cameras were not switched on tonight so that they could record those dramatic gestures, but after the hon. the Minister’s recent experience, it is perhaps just as well that they were switched on.

To be more serious, the hon. member who has just sat down quite rightly said that one could not buy a teacher by simply paying him more money, but I think that he will agree that one cannot expect the teacher, or anyone who responds in the spirit of a calling, to pay the bill at the end of the month merely with praise and status. I am quite sure that we are at one about that, and that is one of the reasons why there has been this fairly long debate on this whole question of not only recognizing the worth, the value and the status of the teacher, but also giving him or her a fair reward for their contribution.

I want to return to a topic which I raised earlier on and which the hon. the Minister was kind enough to respond to. Several hon. members have also referred to it fleetingly. I believe that it is a very serious topic concerning the shortage of English-speaking teachers in the profession. Mr. Mundell, who is the president of the Transvaal Teachers’ Association, suggests that there is a shortage of approximately 2 500 English-speaking teachers in the Transvaal. Now it is very difficult to believe that the figure could be as high as that, but let us accept for the moment that it is general knowledge that there is a shortage. I want to link this up with the remarks made by the hon. member for Standerton, who made a speech earlier on in praise of women teachers. I agree with him wholeheartedly.

I want to suggest that one of the ways in which we can resolve this shortage of English-speaking teachers in the Transvaal is to make far better use of women teachers than we have up to now. Again and again they have been refused permanent appointments, even though they had the necessary qualifications, in favour of male teachers who may not be able to do the work as they can because of the language medium. While I accept that inquiries and studies are going to be made, I must say that it is a matter of urgency. If we experience this kind of shortage now, imagine how this will be compounded over the next five or six years.

One of the other ways in which one can try to resolve this acute problem—it has been suggested, and the hon. the Minister has commented on this publicly—is by possibly encouraging teachers from the English-speaking world to come to South Africa. I am well aware of the problems in this regard, and I am not suggesting for a moment that we should import teachers from Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand or wherever at the expense of a single teacher in this country. Obviously not. I wonder whether the hon. the Minister is still not inclined to have teachers coming from abroad to teach in this country, even if the crisis continues and it is not met, and the hon. the Minister will recall my earlier appeal to young English-speaking people to join the teaching profession and to lend their aid here in this very necessary task. I wonder whether some compromise cannot be reached, for example by way of a contract for three to five years. Obviously there are many people who have come from other parts who have learnt Afrikaans as well whilst teaching in the English-medium schools where the shortage really exists. One of the problems, of course, is that one cannot be appointed to the permanent staff—I think I am correct—unless one is a citizen of the country. That poses an obvious problem. Another problem is that teachers’ salaries, in Great Britain certainly and probably in Australia and New Zealand, are on average much higher than the salaries we are paying here. This poses a further problem.

How does the cost of living in those countries compare to that in our country?

Well, that may well be a problem that we can overcome. I am looking at the problems to see if there is a way in which we can overcome these difficulties.

What do you do to encourage English-speaking people to become teachers?

The hon. the Minister of Health must surely have been here earlier on when I made a specific …

And dramatic.

… and dramatic appeal, as the hon. member for Durban Central says, an appeal I was hoping would go beyond these walls, to young English-speaking people, and to their parents to encourage them, to go into the teaching profession. I believe it is necessary. I am sad that not many of them go into the profession. I hope this appeal will bear some fruit, but at the same time …

You should start a university movement for English teachers.

That is a marvellous idea. They have had so many people discouraging them, so perhaps we should do that as well. In answer to the hon. the Minister of Health I want to say that I will do anything I can to encourage English-speaking people to go into the teaching profession, because the need is there.

[Inaudible.]

Obviously the more we can have, the better. I do not believe that all the Afrikaners are sitting on that side of the House and all the English-speaking people on this side of the House. Half our caucus is Afrikaans-speaking and half our hon. members have Afrikaans names. We have no problems in that regard at all.

Your caucus consists of two people.

We do not see that as a problem. We believe absolutely that if we have truly educated people in South Africa, they will obviously join our party. So we have no problems about that at all. The more progressive we are in education circles, the better. I am quite sure the hon. the Minister will agree. I hope he will not look for only one particular response to this. The harsh fact of the matter is that even though appeals have been made, we simply have not had enough people joining the teaching profession, and therefore we cannot rely upon that suggestion alone. We must therefore look for other alternatives. One possibility is to have people from other parts of the English-speaking world.

There are two further questions I should like to put to the hon. the Minister. Firstly, is the hon. the Minister or his department giving any consideration to the repeal of the Extension of University Education Act? I ask that because I understand that in certain circles there is a discussion taking place as to the possibility of repealing this Act, which would then enable universities to accept, without the rigmarole of permits, etc., people on the basis of merit rather than any other basis. I hope the hon. the Minister will respond to this and tell us if there is a possibility of its repeal. Indeed, I hope that he will act upon it. Even if it is not a matter under discussion, I hope discussion will start because I am quite sure that this is the right direction in which to move.

Order! Before I call upon the next hon. member to speak, I should just like to say that I do not wish to deprive hon. members the pleasure of their little private conversations, but they are very annoying to hon. members who are speaking and to the hon. the Minister who has to reply to the speeches. Therefore I kindly request hon. members kindly to keep their voices as low as possible when they are talking, and to restrict their conversations as far as possible.

Mr. Chairman, we have to be very, very careful about importing staff from overseas to undertake the task of education and training. It is very difficult for a stranger to adapt himself to the background and needs of the boy and girl in a strange country and therefore to undertake his educational task. He will never be able to do it successfully. I am not talking about communicating knowledge, but about the educational task. That cannot be left in the hands of a stranger.

I should like to turn to another aspect of our educational task. It is my considered opinion that active membership of some energetic youth movement or other is essential for the total educational development and growth of each boy and girl. I also have to point out a disconcerting phenomenon in our community life and educational work, and that is that out of a total of 955 000 pupils in all our schools, provincial as well as private, less than 3% were in 1978 enrolled members of some youth movement or other. If we think of the youth movements that we have in our community and educational life, we think of the Voortrekkers, Boy Scouts and Girl Guides, who are all doing great and good work. I have to pay tribute at this occasion to the men and women of the Department of National Education who are concerned with the largest youth movement in our country, viz. the Land Service Movement. Another disconcerting fact is that there are only somewhat more than 20 000 enrolled members of the Land Service Movement in South Africa, of whom 9% have already left school. The question which then arises is what has happened to the rest. Why does this wonderful youth movement enjoy so little support, receive so little recognition, so little encouragement in our community? It is a fact that for this movement and the organization of its activities, special officials are singled out to undertake this work. It is also a fact that of the 12 officials who are needed for this purpose, only seven are serving. There are five vacancies. These seven people now have to do the work of 12, something that is an almost impossible task.

I should also like to mention that we are very grateful for the work the Department of National Education is doing in this connection. It is a fact that this organization, this movement, is intent on organizing camps, week-end camps, week-long camps, where the children and the members are taken back to the soil. In the times in which we are living, in which, as the Bible tells us, we have to do battle against the evil spirits and the forces of darkness, the urbanization of the Whites in South Africa is also a very important factor. In view of this fact one wants this kind of organization, a youth movement which creates the opportunity and affords the boys and girls of our nation that opportunity—even though it is only for a week or a weekend—to get back to Nature, to enable them to feel the soil under their feet again, to enable them to renew their acquaintance with what is beautiful, with what is borne by and springs from this earth of ours.

I should like to raise the following question tonight. Is it not time we in South Africa made every effort to establish a national youth movement in the fullest sense of the word in this country? I am thinking of a national youth movement which would be of such a nature that every boy and girl could join it. But the most important thing is that every boy and girl should want to join it. Together with this the question then also arises whether we should not have a national youth movement in South Africa which every boy and girl has to join?

The Hitler Jugend.

It is necessary for us to have such a youth movement. I cannot speak about it at length now but it is necessary in the light of the problems which we are facing. It has to be a national youth movement which will capture the imagination of our youth, but which will also be the pride of each community in our country. Therefore I should like to ask on this occasion whether it would not be possible to appoint a commission in the department to investigate, in conjunction with all the heads of education, the possibility of the establishment of such a national youth movement. Let it be an extension of the Land Service Movement then. That is not relevant to me. However, the commission should at least indicate how such a national youth movement—I say again that it could be the Land Service Movement—could in fact be extended so that it would be an embellishment to our community life and to our schools.

Since I am speaking about the Land Service Movement now, I should also like to pay tribute to the teachers who sacrifice weekends and holidays to accompany boys and girls to Land Service camps, without compensation, purely out of love. It is really an experience to be able to work and live there for a week with those groups of boys and girls. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Kimberley North has highlighted those things which have a voluntary existence alongside education. I believe—perhaps I should say “I confess”—that I am fanatical about the value of education itself to those who wish to obtain it through hard work and to use it with enterprise. It is said—hon. members know the expression—that a good MP sometimes talks about his constituency. Providence has led me to believe that I have three constituencies. There is the one for which I had to fight an election, Koedoespoort, and two others which have actually controlled my whole life, education and development. Hon. members will forgive me if I explain what I mean by that by referring to myself. In the depression years I was first a student and then a teacher. When the poor Whites decided that “a people saves itself”, I became chairman of the Economic Committee of a branch of the Reddingsdaadbond which was established at Vereeniging. We believed that words would help, but we did not think they would be enough. We believed that deeds were necessary too. Then I ventured into the business world and I had the privilege of seeing an industrial enterprise grow from nothing into something which was prosperous, even great. I am not saying this in order to talk about myself, but to say that I think I know what I am talking about when I say that education or training—we can call it what we like—and enterprise or development offer the opportunities which are within the reach of everyone, every person and every group. In our country, with its resources and human material, we have everything we need for growth, and everyone is invited to participate. The recipe is to grow and enjoy what one has gained through honest labour and sustained spiritual effort, not conquered and appropriated through violence—for then one is being destructive—but gained through dedication. I want to say with conviction that this has worked for my people and I believe that it will work for every other people.

On the principle of opportunities for all, I believe there is consensus among all the members and all the parties, but there are many opinions about the question of how it should be achieved. Now I want to express an opinion about education and development.

On the development front our country is presently a country of opportunities, with a gold bonanza as well as R1 500 million which has been put back into the people’s pockets. I believe that, according to the Biblical recipe, to those that have will be given. I also believe that there should be no complaints about this, for someone who has not first given must not expect to receive.

Now the question is: What are we doing with the opportunities? I believe that for the most part they are being used to make profits in a country of free enterprise, and in a country of free enterprise this is the best recipe and the most successful way of keeping Marxism in its place, behind the Iron Curtain and not in Africa. I believe the money will be available for those who want to venture and for those who have the expertise. There will be many failures along the way, but even these will, as long as they exist, create employment opportunities and outlets for others who are already providing services and producing goods. Because it is free enterprise practised for gain, the basic economic law of supply and demand will apply. A man will first have to acquire his knowledge, his expertise, his technique and his skill before being able to offer it on the labour market, in the business world, in industry or in a profession. He will be able to offer it at the price of the product. The colour of one’s skin will not be a drawback if the quality of one’s product is right.

I allege that there is equality of opportunity. One can bite off as much as one can chew. I repeat: Many will fall by the wayside. The Americans speak of the dropouts, those who think they can, but who actually cannot make the grade, who do not possess those things they have to offer on the market. Those who fall by the wayside will have grievances, especially, perhaps, against those who succeed.

On the educational front, there are even more opportunities for everyone, and the rule is the same. One would be able to gain admission to another’s school through violence, through propaganda, through blackmail or as a favour, because one believes that his school is better or because one believes that one wants to uplift the people there. Whatever the motive, success is within one’s reach. The Afrikaans-speaking people who went to English schools strengthened themselves and did well. But the Afrikaans-speaking people who stayed with their own group developed their schools and saved their people because their strength grew. They themselves had to learn before they could teach others, before they could be good teachers and before their own people could receive a good education from them. Because they were working for growth, however, they gained a foothold in the professions and in every other activity in our country, in spite of the deficiencies that existed.

Education is linked to culture. Even with a foreign school, the home will go a long way with religion and culture, but the ideal situation is where home and school form a unit offering fertile soil where the spirit of the complete human being can develop and grow without anxiety and without divisive influences. This leads me to believe that the pupils’ rebellion was a mistake and will remain one. Those involved were prepared to sacrifice their most precious opportunity to political expediency. Hon. members know that the Afrikaners have never neglected politics—we have taken it very seriously. However, we have never sacrificed our educational opportunities to it, or made those opportunities subservient to it. Something we shall always remember with gratitude is the belief with which we grew up, namely that no one can deprive one of one’s knowledge and education.

There is nothing strange about the fact that education is not all one would like it to be. It would actually be the end of one’s idealism if one believed that one’s education was all it should be. This is certainly no reason for despising what one has. It is precisely when the opportunity is poor that the challenge to succeed is so enormous that it helps to form people who know the answers in the future and who will have the will and the faith to move mountains. I believe we know what we are talking about when we say these things. We know inferior school buildings and all that goes with them, such as the lack of supplies, the lack of textbooks, we have experienced it all. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, once again I wish to express my thanks for the assistance hon. members have afforded my department by way of the contributions they have made. I have already said that in the nature of the matter I am unable to reply in detail to all the local problems raised by hon. members. I have in mind in particular the hon. member for Tygervallei, who will understand if I ask that all these matters that he raised be put in writing. This also applies to the hon. members for Newton Park and Albany with regard to the local problems which they, quite rightly, raised here. However, there are a few matters in connection with which I can reply immediately, concerning the representations of the hon. members for Newton Park and Albany.

I wish to begin by saying that the whole formula for the subsidizing of universities is of course a matter which causes concern. It is true that as far as the University of Port Elizabeth is concerned, there was an expected growth which was realized for the first few years and thereafter could not be sustained due to circumstances that could not be ascribed to negligence on the part of the authorities or any other factors, apart from factors beyond our control or expectations. I am pleased to have the opportunity to place on record here this evening the fact that the chairman of the council—whether or not one agrees about his abilities or with his views—was an able South African financier, namely Dr. A. D. Wassenaar. Other extremely capable members served with him on the board. Due to the circumstances explained by the hon. member for Newton Park, however, a decline has taken place and unfortunate circumstances have developed at the university. My department and I, and everyone who has to do with education, have the greatest respect for the rector, vice-rector and staff of that university, and I was sorry to receive an inquiry from a newspaper a few days ago about a comment made by some lecturer at another university that the founding of the University of Port Elizabeth was a kind of sly trick on the part of the Afrikaners to have a university established at Port Elizabeth, although there was never any justification for doing so. I did not even mention that because the hon. members for Albany, Algoa, Newton Park and Walmer and other hon. members were very helpful to me in solving these problems. I was able to point out that to my knowledge the University of Port Elizabeth was thus far the only university which came as close as possible to being a parallel medium institution, whereas it was described as sectional by people who wanted to disparage the university. It was also alleged that the lecturing staff at that university were appointed not on the basis of merit but due to other considerations. That was the type of argument that was advanced here this evening as well. I reject that allegation with the contempt it deserves. The lecturing staff at the University of Port Elizabeth are all people who have proved themselves in the academic world and no one need be ashamed of being attached to that university. Accordingly we shall do everything in our power in an effort to rectify the situation in which the university unfortunately finds itself, but I think the hon. member will concede that I cannot make promises. This is a matter which will also have to be considered by the Treasury, and only after consultation with the Universities Advisory Council, the Treasury and the university authorities themselves, which are an autonomous body, can I attempt to find a solution. I repeat that the hon. members who represent that constituency have been very helpful to my department and that the council and the university authorities have also been very helpful. I have every confidence that we shall find a solution without any harm to staff that have rendered very outstanding service there.

This also brings me to the hon. member for Albany, a person who has always had a profound interest in the University of Rhodes. Rhodes University has been of inestimable value to our English-speaking community in particular and has done outstanding work. If it is said that this university is perhaps badly situated, due to population figures, there is much that could be said for and against that. However, the fact is just that the university is there, and while the university is there and services are rendered I think it is the duty of the authorities to do everything in their power to enable that university to carry on and maintain its standards. I can therefore give the hon. member the assurance that as far as my department is concerned it is also our intention to be of assistance in that regard. I may just say in this connection that Dr. Hyslop, who was the former principal, serves on the Universities Advisory Council and therefore has a say in that body which is in a position to give the best advice as regards the problems of the smaller universities. The same applies to the other smaller universities.

I think it is necessary that we take serious cognizance of the fact that we cannot continue to expand universities as we have been doing over the past few years. I therefore want to issue the most serious warning possible here this evening. We are faced with serious problems, problems that are important for all of us, from the one extreme sector of our economy to the other when it comes to the training of manpower and so on. We must see to it that university training does not simply mean that one can obtain a BA degree just to say that one has been to university. That is something which this country can no longer afford. The time has come for the selection of students to be such, even at the high school level, that young people who which to study further will have to qualify in a field where their training can be in the best interests of themselves and the country. What point is there in having a degree, for example a doctor’s degree in psychology, if there are no posts for lecturers in psychology? What is the point of being able to put a fine doctor’s degree after one’s name if one is unable to use it to earn one’s daily bread? I think the nature of our manpower shortage has become such that we should give serious consideration even to doing something about the selection of people for these popular subjects. I find it striking that where people are selected for the medical profession, the requirements are such that only a small group of people are admitted. However, when young people are admitted who can only fail in their first year at university, people who are going to take a BA degree course and waste money doing so, then no one objects. They are allowed to undertake their studies at State expense without restriction. Particularly in view of the coming of the technikons, since the technikons are going to take many of the students who want to study at the tertiary level, I believe that in future this House will have to give serious attention to instituting a stringent selection procedure so that we may know how the technikons are going to influence the increase in the number of students.

The department has received applications from universities for the establishment of at least five satellite campuses. If those applications were to be granted, buildings would stand empty and it would result in financial losses worse than any that could be suffered at the University of Port Elizabeth. Nevertheless many of these things have already been advocated in principle by people with good intentions, and almost agreed to. If we continue along these lines, I can only warn at this stage that we shall not only lose vast sums of money, but also manpower, in that it will be wrongly used and will be lost, as the hon. member for Koedoespoort said. He referred to people who would be left out in the cold and would serve no purpose. By virtue of what we ascertained from statistics I must warn hon. members that the increase in the White population is declining to such an extent that apart from circumstances such as those in Port Elizabeth, the number of students at our universities is going to drop. Our large universities, too, are in danger of having fewer students. Staff are allocated to universities on the basis of the number of students, and therefore some of those members of staff will in time have to be phased out. When that day comes, we shall have to accept joint responsibility for the kind of situation that arose at UPE and could arise at other small universities. We cannot afford to overlook the fact that whereas the technikons are now going to accommodate a large number of students for tertiary education, and our country needs technological training, those students will be drawn away from the ranks of people who at present attend universities. In the nature of the matter, if 5 000 people qualify for tertiary education annually, just to take a figure at random, and they go to the technikon that offer these courses, one can understand that a smaller number will go to the universities. When that happens, our large universities are also going to have fewer students and will receive less by way of subsidies, and all that that involves.

Throw open the universities. [Interjections.]

I am happy to accept advice from any hon. member in this House and if an hon. member has a question to ask, I shall be willing to resume my seat. If the hon. member for Yeoville wants to put a question to me, we can assist the Chairman in allowing this to be done in an orderly way.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister a question?

Order! The hon. the Minister has indicated that he would be prepared to reply to a question.

Does the hon. the Minister not think that if he allowed the policy of open universities and university autonomy, he would to a large extent solve the problem that he thinks he is facing with regard to numbers? The second leg of my question is whether he does not think that it would be morally wrong to have a situation where a university has empty places when there are people of other race groups who cannot get into a university?

Mr. Chairman, I am going to reply to it briefly and to the point, and I ask that hon. member and other hon. Opposition members to listen to this, because this may be interpreted once again, as so many things have been interpreted in the past, as being derogatory of other race groups. I make no apology for the fact that I want every possible opportunity to be given to the other people living in this country. Let us take one example. I can quote the figures, and I did so in reply to questions put to me with regard to people being admitted to medical faculties, of how many Whites, Blacks, Asians, etc., applied. These applications were considered on merit by the university councils. What are the requirements for a student to be allowed into a medical faculty at, for instance, the University of Cape Town? He has to have a first-class pass in certain matric subjects. How many Blacks would qualify to enter that faculty on merit?

[Inaudible.]

Once again I am open to questions. My question is: How many of them would qualify for it at this stage? This Government is following a policy—and I am not apologizing for the fact that I support this policy—of separate universities for the separate race groups, for the separate nations.

Why?

There are valid reasons for it. I can inform the hon. member—and I can give him literature on it as well which he can read if he has the time for it—that members of the Organization for African Unity have repeatedly made it clear at their meeting in Lagos that their people wanted to be educated each in their own mother tongue. The words they used was to the effect that they were not going to allow their people to be colonialized by having them instructed at a university foreign to their own venacular and to their own nations. That was their decision. [Interjections.] If anybody wants to deny this, I want to tell him now that I am prepared, when this debate continues tomorrow, to deliver proof of the decisions on this issue at meetings of the Organization for African Unity, the United Nations and Unesco. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. the Minister cannot reply to a multitude of questions being put to him at once.

Mr. Chairman, you know what people are like when they are hurt. I know that fairly well. However, they or anybody else are most welcome to question my integrity in saying this.

I now want to come to the speech of the hon. member for Yeoville. I want to say that whatever happens in the rest of Africa, we in South Africa have to follow the policy, a policy which I support, that we have to give equal opportunities to people of all colours and all creeds. We pledge to do just that. Everybody is pleading for equal opportunity and facilities for all, but how does one go about it? One goes about it in two ways. There are those who say that we must share all facilities. To these people I want to say—and I accept responsibility for saying this in my personal capacity—that the standard of education for Blacks is at the moment not yet equal to the standard of education for Whites, not because Blacks are inferior, but because of history. They will therefore not be able to compete on a par with the Whites. Do hon. members want me to be condescending and paternalistic about it and allow people to enter these universities just to show what good fellows we are?

We said that they must be allowed in on merit.

How do we go about it? We go about it in an evolutionary manner. That is what we have been doing all along and that is what we intend continuing to do in future. We are allowing people to enter universities on merit. Will we be adopting the correct attitude towards Black and Coloured people if we were to allow them to fill the empty places that become available at White universities because of over-planning? Will we adopt a correct attitude towards them if we tell them that they can use our surplus facilities until such time as we need them again for our own people?

It is better than nothing.

The universities want it.

The hon. member says that the universities want it. I hear a lot of voices going up about this. I am prepared to sit down and reply to questions. I want to say to the hon. member—and I have proof here from a document which has been provided to me by my department—that councils of universities decide on the admission of students on merit, for example in the field of medicine. It was decided that only 16, if I remember correctly, out of 258 candidates could be accepted on merit. Does the hon. member want me to throw out the application of a White person who qualifies only to accept a Black person who does not qualify? [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister a question?

Yes.

Mr. Chairman, in view of what the hon. the Minister has said, would he not perhaps consider that the universities should decide whether to open their campuses to whoever they desire? [Interjections.]

No, and I say that emphatically. [Interjections.]

Why not?

One reason is that the policy of this Government is that of separate development. Each nation is to develop within its own cultural background. If this is something which is so sinful, then I stand accused and convicted.

I think you are.

I accept responsibility for my position. Can the hon. members of the Opposition please explain to me why it is that everyone of the developing Black nations are clamouring to have their own universities in their own countries?

It is because they are not allowed to go to the others.

That is not correct. [Interjections.] That is not true. I do not want to quarrel on this issue over the floor of the House. As Minister of National Education I have allowed persons who could not be admitted to the Black universities to be admitted to White universities, but I gave a general warning that the expansion of universities, and especially what they call distant campuses, will land us in trouble before we realize it. We have provided ample opportunities for Whites to be trained at universities. I am merely warning that we should go about the extension of the facilities for Whites very, very carefully.

Let me also say, if people want to point fingers—and I do hope my colleague the hon. the Minister of Education and Training will forgive me for saying it—that one of the first things I did when I took over the portfolio which he now holds was to appoint a commission of inquiry consisting of Blacks and Whites to go into the question of providing university facilities for Blacks. I believe the report is almost ready. It will be discussed under the Vote of my hon. colleague. The object is to provide the facilities for Blacks which will suit their requirements and will in all ways assist them, even through the assistance of White universities, to get the proper training. I have nothing to hide over this question. We shall provide facilities for the Blacks, but in the meantime I warn the Whites that we cannot go on providing facilities in advance, not knowing whether the students will be forthcoming.

*The number of births among the White population is dropping and we shall have to see to it that we train the Whites far more thoroughly if they are to maintain the position of leaders …

Mr. Chairman, excuse me for interrupting myself. In contrast to many of my colleagues I have great respect for the hon. member for Yeoville. [Interjections.] Yes, perhaps I have a higher respect for him than even his own people. I want to put a friendly request to him, while we are speaking. I shall give him an opportunity to ask his questions, but while I am replying to his questions and while interjections are being made, the hon. member must please refrain from sitting and talking to other people who point their fingers at me. [Interjections.]

I did not point my finger. I am only disappointed.

If the hon. member did so unintentionally, I accept that. [Interjections.]

Order!

It is the usual bloody nonsense. [Interjections.]

Order! What did the hon. member say?

I said it was the usual bloody nonsense.

The hon. member must withdraw that.

I withdraw it, Sir. [Interjections.]

I shall now proceed to reply to the hon. member for Durban Central. The hon. member said South Africans …

[Inaudible.]

Order! The hon. member for Yeoville must now contain himself. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Durban Central came forward with a very positive statement here, namely that South Africa must see to it that its academics do well so that they can give a lead to the rest of Africa and the rest of the world. That is what he said, if I understood him correctly.

There is an outstanding article written in connection with speeches by Dr. Verwoerd. Even though certain hon. members do not share Dr. Verwoerd’s political convictions, they would do well to read it. If I remember correctly, in 1961 or 1963 Dr. Verwoerd made a speech on the occasion of the opening of the Engineering Faculty at the University of Pretoria. I shall try to repeat verbatim as far as possible what he said on that occasion. He said that we as Whites should not try to make out that we are leaders in Africa, because no people wants to be led by another people; every people wants its own leaders. However, we can be leaders if we show leadership through our knowledge.

That speech is worthwhile reading by everyone in South Africa, because it is fully in accordance with what the hon. member for Durban Central has said. By being leaders in the field of knowledge, an area in which we have the privilege of being in the lead, we can be leaders in the true sense of the word, not because we have a white skin, or as a result of compulsion or power or legislation, but through the leadership we give the rest of Africa. I think that that message from the hon. member for Durban Central is one we would do well to take note of.

The hon. member for Tygervallei put a question to me in connection with the technical college in his constituency. I attended a very pleasant function there. They have a fine staff. I want the hon. member to convey the message to that technical college that the department has great appreciation for the pioneering work being done by that technical college. The hon. member will also be aware that tertiary courses at the technical level are already being offered. In this regard too, the technical college must perform pioneering work.

A technikon is now being planned for Cape Town, a technikon in which, at the moment, a total of 2 662 students can be accommodated on the basis of equivalence. The planning of the technikon in District Six—or Zonnebloem, as it is also known—is being carried out with 5 000 students in mind. If we are to carry out that planning for the greater Cape Town area, we shall not be able to consider another technikon in the near future, particularly since we have just approved the construction of a technikon in Bloemfontein in the Orange Free State, which will also include Welkom. For the information of hon. members I might just mention that the whole Free State will be served by this technikon. We shall therefore have to ascertain how vigorous this technical college is before we are able to take further decisions in this regard. I have also taken cognizance of the problems relating to the Schmidt report and the salary problem pointed out by the Naudé Committee. If I get a letter from the hon. member in this connection, I shall give the matter further attention.

In the course of his speech the hon. member for Witwatersberg reminded me of the time when he and I landed up in prison together. I perhaps as a result of crimes, and he due to his speeches, which he always delivered in such a forceful and brilliant way. I sometimes wish that the kind of persuasive power he displays could again be found among the youth in our schools today, that it could be instilled by our teachers, of whom there are still many who can do this kind of work with conviction, people of the ilk of the hon. member for Witwatersberg. I wholeheartedly support his statement that school committees and parents’ associations have a major task to perform in this connection.

†The hon. member for Pinelands asked me about English-speaking teachers. I want to repeat what I said on a previous occasion. If the various authorities are satisfied with the qualifications, they are more than welcome to put their request to my department, whenever necessary, and to get teachers from overseas, i.e. if they are qualified to the satisfaction of the authorities concerned to teach in this country. In a sense I think we should consider it as a short-term solution to certain of our problems. It is something that I cannot decide about, because it is a provincial government matter, as the hon. member will know. Mr. Mundell says—and I say this with respect to a man who is not here to defend himself—that there is a shortage of 2 500. I, however, doubt that figure very much. It has not been proved, and until such time as I have the proof, all I can say is that I doubt it very much indeed. That is in any event not the figure given to me officially by the Transvaal Provincial Administration.

We must solve the problem of English-speaking schools, and in this connection I, who have grown up with my fellow English-speaking South Africans, join the hon. member for Pinelands in appealing to English-speaking South Africans to inspire their children to become teachers. After all, it is not pleasant for an English-speaking child to be taught by an Afrikaans-speaking teacher, not in all circumstances. They would prefer one from their own language group.

Why? [Interjections.]

That hon. member asks “Why?” Why does he not put that question to the hon. member for Pinelands?

I shall talk to him later.

That hon. member may well talk to him, but he will not convince him, not ever.

Why put them into little boxes?

Order!

Let me put a question to that hon. member. Why does the Transvaal Teachers’ Association officially complain to me because Afrikaans-speaking teachers are appointed at English-medium schools? Will that hon. member please reply by merely nodding his head or shaking his head? [Interjections.]

That would not appear in Hansard.

This is not a complaint that comes from me. It is a complaint emanating from the English-speaking people in the Transvaal. What does the hon. member want? I am trying to solve a problem, not trying to steal a political march on anyone.

Why do you want everyone in his own little box? Everyone has to go to either an English …

Order! Hon. members must give the hon. the Minister a chance to complete his speech.

In lighter vein, I do wish to say that I can partly understand why the English-speaking people feel as they do about the Afrikaans-speaking people. My second eldest son is a dear, good boy. He has never done an Englishman harm, but throughout his life he has done violence to the English language. [Interjections.] During his matric we saw that he had not the slightest chance of passing. Accordingly we got a very good English-speaking friend to give him special classes in English. I am going to tell this story because I think it is an example of why one feels the way one does about certain things. I thought I was doing her a favour, because I paid her. I also thought I was doing myself a favour, because he would at least be able to pass his matric. However, it did not work very well. After three months Mrs. Berman was on the brink of a nervous breakdown and my son knew no more about English than he had before. We therefore told him that he should phone her himself and tell her that he was not going to continue with the English classes. He said that he was not going to continue with the classes, but that he thought he would do better in future. He spoke English to her. Probably in reply to the question: “Do you think you have benefited in any way?” he replied: “Yes, Miss, I think I will do very better in the previous.” [Interjections.] How he passed I simply do not know, but he did pass, and he is a good South African citizen who gets on very well with his English-speaking friends, a decent child, like many others who struggle with languages.

It is always worth listening to the hon. member for Kimberley North. He is a man who speaks from the heart. Like any other movement, a land service movement requires leaders to get things off the ground. It also takes money, but primarily it takes leaders, and it is unfortunate that many of the movements that are started have to die due to a lack of leadership. So often—and this is perhaps the tragedy of South Africa today—people with leadership qualities no longer wish to play a part in rendering their nation a service. They first want to know how much they will be paid if they become leaders in the Land Service Movement. In how many areas of life, has this not, tragically enough, been shown to be the case? This is an unfortunate development and one that I am unable to avert.

The hon. member for Koedoespoort with his thorough knowledge of education made a contribution concerning education and development to which I have already referred, and we shall probably make still greater use of his assistance by consulting him, particularly with regard to the selection of students to enable us to face the challenges of the future.

I just wish to conclude by saying something about special education. The hon. the Minister of Health who is present here this evening was friendly enough to discuss the matter with me and to say that we must hold discussions about retarded and handicapped children in various spheres. I think the time is more than ripe, as certain hon. members have said today, for the various departments to refrain from competing with one another, and that we should instead take one another’s hands in an effort to afford unfortunate children the opportunity, at an early stage in their lives, to develop to the best of their abilities. Irrespective of race, colour or creed, every child with those shortcomings has the right to the best from his fatherland, even more so than other children. We shall endeavour to act along those lines so that we may provide those children with the opportunity they deserve.

Mr. Chairman, while the hon. the Minister was dealing with the Opposition, I thought of the old saying that if one throws a stone over a wall and the dog on the other side yelps, one can be sure one hit it. The Opposition let out a protracted yelp while the hon. the Minister was dealing with them and it made one feel good.

You should not insult the dog, after all.

I also wish to say in all seriousness that just as beautiful music causes one’s heart to beat faster and gives one a feeling of well-being, the speech by the hon. member for Witwatersberg tonight had the same effect on one. He spoke tonight like a man who is master of a fine musical instrument, and I think the House is indebted to him for his speech.

Having to speak after the hon. members for Witwatersberg, Koedoespoort and Kimberley North, makes one who does not specialize in that field, feel insignificant. If one considers the immense task of the Department of National Education, it strikes one that the department in all its various ramifications is preparing our nation, and particularly the youth, to exercise choices in virtually every field of society. Whether the choices exercised are going to be right or wrong, will depend to a great extent upon the work that is being done to teach the people to make the correct choices.

I wish to refer briefly to an article I read recently and which I found stimulating in the first place, but also shocking in certain respects. I refer to an article by a certain Dr. Norman S. Ream entitled “The Crisis of our Age”. In this article, the author discusses the various periods in the history of the world. He refers to the Golden Age of Greece, to the Middle Ages, and then to our present epoch, of which he says it could probably be called the nuclear era. He goes on to say that no optimist could describe this as the age of enlightenment or as the era of a new Renaissance, because in his view we have failed in our Christian stewardship. Dr. Ream described our era as one of moral disintegration, and I wish to quote what he says about this in this particular article. He writes—

I do not think that we in South Africa can deny that the section I have quoted, is apposite to our time too, to the people of our time and to South Africa. If we consider all the deprarity that emanates from the yellow press and that permissiveness is presented as being normal and good, the question arises as to what we can do to counter this process of moral disintegration. I am not able to give a solution across the wide spectrum of this line of thinking. The State, the schools, churches and many organizations are already doing a great deal to counter this problem, but I suggest with respect that a great deal more will still have to be done in future in order to maintain White civilization and civilization generally in this part of the world. A quality which is greatly lacking among people today, is moral and spiritual discipline, and more attention will consequently have to be devoted to the moral rearmament of the people of South Africa. I found it striking that the hon. the Minister as well as the hon. member for Kimberley North referred to the dearth of leadership and of leaders, to the fact that this was creating immense problems and that it was actually the reason for most of our problems. It also strikes me that in society today, one finds the same people playing a leading role in various cultural organizations such as the school board, the church council and also at the level of party activities. It does not matter which party. One finds that the same people are active everywhere. There is an acute shortage of people who take an active interest in their community life. The obvious place to start with the cultivation of more leadership and leaders, is among our youth—both those at school and those who have completed their school careers. What becomes of the leaders in various fields after they have left school? It strikes me that there are schools where seven or even eight boys play rugby for their provincial schools’ team, but not one plays provincial rugby after having left school. In this way, one encounters many instances where young people who excel at school, do not achieve a great deal in later life. The hon. member for Kimberley North has already indicated that only 3% of the young people are involved in youth activities at school. There are also figures to indicate that only between 15% and 20% of our post-school young people get involved in recognized organizations and play a leading role there. Dr. N. T. van Loggerenberg, in his booklet Weerbaarheid, describes this phenomenon as follows (page 9)—

I wish to refer very briefly to the work the Department of National Education is doing in this regard, quite apart from the task of the other sections of society in this regard. I wish to refer in particular to the Land Service and Youth Affairs Section, and more particularly to the section on page 51 of the excellent annual report of the department. I also found it noteworthy that the following appeared on page 53—

In this regard reference is also made to the number of projects aimed at post-school young people, and they say—

There is also reference to innumerable projects, youth service projects, camps for young people leaving school, preparedness projects, acculturation of immigrants, race relations, post-school young people and others to which these youth leaders are specifically exposed and it is stated that during the year 1979, altogether 20 179 post-school young people were involved in this project. I hardly think it would be possible to give the Department of National Education sufficient credit for the great work that is already being done in this connection. Considering the exigency of our time, I wish to associate myself with what the hon. member for Kimberley North has said. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I hope the hon. member for Roodepoort will forgive me for not replying to the points which he has raised. Obviously those are matters to which the hon. the Minister will give due attention.

I wish to refer to what the hon. the Minister said in his reply in connection with students for admission to our medical faculties at the various universities. As far as the NRP is concerned, we believe that it should be left to the universities to accept students at their discretion, based on merit, irrespective of the racial determination of those students. If one looks at the figures referred to by the hon. the Minister, it would appear that most medical faculties do in fact have students from all four race groups, that is apart from the University of the Free State and the University of Pretoria as far as their faculties of medicine are concerned.

They did not apply.

The point is that I think the whole question of ascertaining the future of some of our medical schools is of great importance. The medical school of the University of Natal is situated in my constituency and was established in 1951, so next year it will have been in existence for over 30 years. A number of political decisions have been made from time to time that have affected the planning at that particular university. Indeed, the wish of the university as far as I understand the position is that they are prepared to accept students, also White students, if they are permitted to do so, provided there is an increase in the facilities to enable them to accommodate those White students. On Friday, 29 February 1980, when I asked the hon. the Minister “whether further consideration had been given to the admission of White undergraduates to the faculty of medicine at the University of Natal”, the hon. the Minister in his reply said: “Yes; the university indicated that more applications from suitable non-White candidates are received each year than can be accommodated,” although the words “non-White candidates” do not indicate whether they are Black, Indian or Coloured. However, a survey that was undertaken at the university fairly recently estimated that by 1983 there would be approximately 300 well matriculated, suitable Black students looking for a place in medical schools. We know that the Medical University of South Africa at Ga-Rankuwa has an intake of approximately 200, but this would mean that, if the Medical School of the University of Natal were to be phased out as far as Black students are concerned, there would be at least one-third of those applicants who would be trying to find a place at a medical school, unless these facilities are increased in order to cater for those increased numbers. The hon. the Minister of Health is also in the House at the moment, and I am sure that he will agree that the question of finding a sufficient number of qualified doctors indeed constitutes a very real problem in South Africa. If one takes comparative ratios of doctors to the population, one can see that it is 1:400 for the Whites, but 1:40 000 for the Blacks. Therefore, it is imperative that we ensure that the maximum number of potential doctors are given the opportunity to qualify as doctors.

I would also like to see that further consideration should be given to the whole future of the medical school in Natal. Obviously, nobody wishes to see places closed which would prevent much-needed Black students from training as doctors, but at the same time Natal is the only province where there is no medical school at all for White students. If they wish to study in the medium of English, they have to apply to the University of the Witwatersrand or the University of Cape Town. This involves additional expenditure if their applications are successful, but according to my information a number of them have not been successful in gaining admission to the University of the Witwatersrand or the University of Cape Town. This has meant that they have had to go into other professions and that, therefore, the medical profession, which could do with more graduates, was then denied those new graduates because they then had to enter into other sciences or other spheres as far as their study was concerned.

I do hope that the hon. the Minister can give some indication whether it is possible to ensure that those facilities that are in existence at the Medical School of the University of Natal can be increased in order to enable White students also to be admitted to that medical school without their intake in any way resulting in the supplanting of members of other race groups. This is a vitally important matter for the parents of many of these young people who wish to make medicine their profession as there are many of them who just cannot afford the additional cost of having their sons or daughters studying at a university which is a long way from home, something which necessitates a great deal of travel as well as the additional costs that are involved as regards boarding fees. This makes it difficult and renders it beyond the means of many of these people. This matter has been raised many times and I know that the hon. the Minister did in fact discuss this matter last year at a congress of his party in Natal, but it is a matter that many people in Natal feel very strongly about, viz. that these young people are being lost as far as the study of medicine is concerned, because they are unable to obtain admission to the University of Cape Town or the University of the Witwatersrand.

The other matter that I wish to raise with the hon. the Minister has a bearing on the position under programme 5 of the estimates which are before the Committee. This has to do with children in need of care in terms of the Childrens Act, for which an amount of R9,697 million is required. This is a very important function of the Department of National Education, because the reform schools and industrial schools do make provision for young people who require attention in terms of the Childrens Act. The hon. the Minister is a former Deputy Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions and he knows the problems that can arise in the correct placement of these young people. We have today 18 schools of industry accommodating some 2 232 pupils, and two reform schools accommodating approximately 140 boys and 28 to 35 girls at Durbanville. I raise this with the hon. the Minister because it appears as if in recent times there has been a change in the policy in terms of which young boys in particular are being transferred from the industrial schools to the reform school at Constantia. The reply to a question I put to the hon. the Minister during the earlier part of the session indeed confirmed that position. The hon. the Minister said in reply that 133 boys were accommodated at the reform school at Constantia, while 17 boys had absconded. Although the reform schools have always basically been used to accommodate those juveniles who have committee offences, we find that of those 133 boys at the reform school at Constantia, 42 have not been convicted on any offence, while 43 have been convicted of more than two offences. It appears that a new situation is developing in this regard. The children who are being transferred from those industrial schools appear to be getting younger and younger. Although there might be good reasons for them to be transferred, it is still not in accordance with the normal practice in terms of which mainly juveniles who have committed offences are sent to reform schools. A situation has therefore developed in which persons who are not offenders are now being placed in the same institution in which there are boys up to the age of 20 years, some of whom who have committed even three or more offences. I believe this is not in the interest of these young boys. I believe it is the normal procedure that a convicted juvenile’s case is subject to review by the Supreme Court before he is placed in a reformatory, usually for a minimum period of 18 months, whereas boys who have not committed an offence are now being placed in these institutions. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, nobody could have any doubt about the importance of effective communication between the hon. the Minister of National Education and organized education as such. There is the greatest appreciation for the work being done by the National Education Council. This council was established, in the first place, to act in an advisory capacity. Nobody need have any doubt about the necessity of the existence of this council, but I do wish to make an urgent plea for the establishment of a medium for negotiation in which all interested parties such as organized education, the education departments, universities, technikons, the Commission for Administration and other bodies would be represented.

I regard such a negotiating body as a “talk-shop”. It could be convened at the initiative of the hon. the Minister, although I believe that it should be convened annually for a discussion with the hon. the Minister. On such an occasion the problems, the bottlenecks and the policy could be mutually stated and discussed. I believe that discussions of this nature would eliminate many misunderstandings that may have arisen. Essential information could then be exchanged at first hand. Experience has shown that co-ordinating measures are of urgent importance, particularly when specific policies are being considered, when planning with a view to new or changed conditions of service is necessary and when decisions have to be taken on how new measures are to be implemented on an inter-departmental basis. Communication, knowledge and information could eliminate or prevent anomalies arising out of changes in salary and post structures. Such a body, as I see it, would not only have to consider education as a unit, that is to say, pre-primary education up to the tertiary level, but would mainly have to undertake co-ordination. There would have to be opportunities for proper consultation and feed-back to all parties involved from the initial stage to the final stage. I would regard such a body as one that would continually have to pick up the loose ends in our educational system so that, among other things, the ideal of a uniform educational system could be put into practice once and for all. I believe that the hon. the Minister would consider my proposal. A body of this nature, as I have been trying to motivate it, would be able to serve the interests of the teaching profession.

I should also like to deal with the acute shortage of Afrikaans text-books at our universities, particularly in respect of the natural sciences, and more particularly at first-year level. A first-year student said recently, when I asked him how he was doing at university, that there were several things he found irritating. He referred, among other things, to the fact that the lectures were in Afrikaans, all the text-books were in English and the question papers were in Greek. [Interjections.] The S.A. Academy for Arts and Science had discussions with the various universities and proposed that there should be a concerted effort on the part of Afrikaans universities, and that a panel should be established to compile these text-books. This was not successful, however. Fortunately, with the assistance of the Afrikaans Language Monument Committee, panels of authors were then appointed and text-books have already been published.

The first text-book in mathematics for first-year students—Analyse 1, as it is known—has already been published. According to my information, good progress is being made with a second text-book on algebra. Next year a text-book on organic chemistry will be published. I wish to express my thanks to the S.A. Academy for Arts and Science for taking the lead, and towards the Afrikaans Language Monument Committee that has provided the necessary funds. I should also like to involve the department in this and ask that the department should be enabled to make a greater contribution towards Afrikaans text-books.

I do not think that the Advancement of Culture Branch of the Department of National Education is, in general, receiving sufficient attention from our people in the Republic. In the short time still at my disposal, I wish to ask that the department should be enabled to extend the good work that is being done by this branch. It is necessary for the advancement of culture that the department should provide organizations with auxiliary services to enable them to realize their objectives. Accordingly, what the department, and the Advancement of Culture Branch in particular, need, is of course the essential funds. Now, I believe it is a fact that this department does not get the necessary funds. I consequently wish to request that in the next budget, the Department of National Education should, in general, be better provided for, so that it in turn could channel more funds to the Advancement of Culture Branch.

For the performance of this task, we require cultural centres and camping sites. Now it is true that there are various camping sites, for example in the Northern Transvaal, the Southern Transvaal, the Western Transvaal, the Free State, the Northern Cape— one at Warrenton—the Western Cape, the Eastern Cape, and in Natal. However, many of these camping sites have only been partially developed. These camping sites are so scattered that large areas of the Republic cannot benefit by any of them. I therefore believe that at this stage there is an urgent need for the existing camping sites to be fully developed as soon as possible. Many more camping sites would still have to be acquired and developed.

In this regard I just wish to draw the attention of the hon. the Minister to a little town named Oviston, which is actually a part of Venterstad, on the shores of the Verwoerd Dam. The municipality of Venterstad recently purchased this little town. The municipality is now, to a limited extent, involved in the development of a holiday resort there. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, we have almost come to the end of the debate on the Vote of the hon. the Minister of National Education. Once again it was very interesting to listen to the hon. member for Pinelands, who was actually the chief spokesman of the official Opposition.

The hon. member for Pinelands will excuse me, since both of us are emeriti, both …

Retired.

Yes, retired. That is now as far as our original careers are concerned. Of course, I also wish to include the hon. the Minister in this category.

You have all been “fired” from the church. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Pinelands reminded me today of the young minister who ascended the pulpit brimming with enthusiasm to deliver his sermon. It did not go off too well and back in the vestry, the young minister asked the church council what had gone wrong. One of the elders told him: “If you had ascended the way you descended, you would have descended the way you had ascended.” [Interjections.]

I know that story myself.

On several occasions now, the hon. member for Pinelands has introduced the debate on the National Education Vote. The one practical problem I have with him, however, is that after all the preceding debates and after all the preparatory work by the public media, the hon. member had the wonderful opportunity, on behalf of his party, not only of critically analysing the problems of education in South Africa, but also of stating what his alternative policy with regard to education in South Africa would be.

But surely he has no alternative.

I wish to point out once again that I put the same question to the hon. member for Pinelands a year or two ago. In his reply at the time he referred to some or other educationist who, according to him, could provide the basis for the policy of the PFP with regard to education. I took the trouble of searching for books written by this professor, just to ascertain what exactly the basis of the educational policy of the PFP was. Just like the hon. the Minister I also listened very attentively every time the hon. member took the floor. Actually I do not want to count the third time. The first two times, however, I listened attentively to what he had to say. [Interjections.] He used absolute clichés and terms that had no substance and made no sense. The hon. member for Pinelands sits behind his leader, who is not here at the moment. I wish to give him and the rest of the PFP some very sound advice. Next time they nominate a candidate in a constituency where they think they have a prospect of winning …

Such as Rissik.

… they should nominate an educationist, because the absolute lack of an educational policy in the PFP and, in the second place, the lack of a speaker who knows what it is all about, became very evident in the course of this debate. [Interjections.] There are many of us on this side of the House. It is not only a question of quantity, however, but we also have quality. [Interjections.] Running through the speech of every speaker on this side of the House was a golden thread …

There is the golden thread again.

… that clearly indicated what the educational policy of this side of the House was. [Interjections.] The NRP also displayed it. In the case of the hon. member for Durban Central and other speakers in that party, one knows what the policy of the NRP is. There is something I should like to say to the hon. member for Pinelands. A solution, or a statement of policy, cannot be covered with the cliché of amalgamation and open institutions, just as the actual handling of problems by this side of the House is not inherent in the mere statement of the idea of apartheid or separate development.

One has to give substance to it. The hon. member for Pinelands still owes it to this House to say what the foundations of the educational policy of the PFP are, and how he is going to project his policy onto it. He still owes us that answer. However, I want to leave the hon. member for Pinelands at that for a moment. I am hoping that next year’s debate will bring us greater clarity.

When I am Minister of Education you can put all those questions to me.

There is another matter which I should very much like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister, a matter about which I feel very strongly. I wish to refer to certain aspects of our universities in South Africa. Every year thousands of young men and women, after passing matric, go on to university with very great ideals, but every year—at least as far back as I was able to ascertain—there is a very high failure rate. I think the time has really come for us to consider this problem from various angles, because in Southern Africa we do not have either the time or the manpower to waste as a result of people failing university courses. I wish to refer to the details which the department furnishes in respect of first-year students. The figures are very disconcerting. At White universities, approximately 1 500 students leave university before they have completed their first year of study. These are young men and girls who do not even complete the first year of study. Then, there are the students who fail at the end of the year or are perhaps not even allowed to sit for examinations. There are more than 2 500 of them. That gives us a total of 4 000 students. It is sometimes difficult to believe that so many first-year students fail at university. Behind every one of those students there is a father, a mother, a parent who, for 18 years, has probably been caring for their son or daughter with the greatest love and dedication. It has probably cost them a great deal of effort and money to send the child to university after completing his school career. And then they experience these problems within the first year. My experience is that there are various reasons why students fail. Let me indicate a few of them. In the first place, there is a certain percentage of first-year students who make an error of judgement in their choice of a career. It goes without saying that not everyone has decided early in their lives what career they want to follow. So, there is a small percentage who make a mistake in their choice of a career, which one hopes is rectified later in their fives. A second reason which one could mention, is that the young student makes a mistake in his choice of subjects. Although he may have been able to pass at a university, he may have made a mistake in the choice of his course. It often happens that when a student arrives at university and sees the variety of subjects in which tuition is offered, he decides on three or four and is then simply not able to make the grade in those subjects. So, he has to terminate his course and perhaps start with another one later on. Then, there is a third reason that probably also applies in respect of a percentage of students, and that is that during those years a student also experiences personal problems. It may be that he does not have the right disposition, or that he has physical disabilities or domestic problems.

As a lecturer I often requested a student who had not done well, to come and see me in my office. When one starts talking to such a student, one finds that the problem often lies in the home. That is another reason why students fail. Yet another reason which one could advance in respect of a small percentage of students is the way they have adopted to University life. Very often the change in surroundings between the high school and secondary education, on the one hand and tertiary education at university level on the other, is simply too great. As a result of that, one finds that during the first four, five or six months the youngsters, or rather the young gentlemen and ladies, flounder about. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is always a great pleasure to listen to the hon. member for Rissik, because he states his case in his own logical, reasoned fashion, as he did this evening with regard to the very topical matter of the failure rate among first-year students at our universities. I was particularly pleased when he uttered so many truths, for example that on this side of the House there is quantity as well as quality. Moreover, that was received with general agreement on the other side of the House.

Since we are reaching the end of this part of the debate which, for the most part, concerns education I should like to put forward a few more ideas. After today’s debate I do not think any hon. member of this House has any doubt that the teaching profession is not only important but also demands attention from time to time. I say this specifically because it will not be good enough to investigate the problems of education once every five years, once every ten years or even once every 15 years. I think that the problems of education must be investigated on an on-going basis. The problems of education will never be solved in any country. That is simply impossible.

Right at the outset I should like to say to hon. members of the Opposition that there is no point in our trying to score political points off one another with regard to events which took place at a specific time. Let us agree with one another that the teachers had justified expectations in the past and have them again now, that there are problems and that we should all like to see these people getting a reasonable and good salary befitting the importance of the profession.

That is a very good speech.

I want to add that that is nothing new. As recently as during the discussion of his Vote the hon. the Prime Minister spelled this out forcefully. That is apart from what the hon. the Minister of National Education has so often said and what the hon. the Minister of Finance said in his budget speech. I want to quote an extract from a speech by the hon. the Prime Minister to refresh hon. members’ memories. The hon. the Prime Minister said on 30 April 1980 (Hansard 1980, col. 5163)—

He went on to say that he personally, as the Prime Minister, had contacted various teaching bodies. We are all aware of that. The hon. the Prime Minister said that he had done so because the profession occupied such an important position in our national life. The hon. the Prime Minister went on to speak about the question of preferential treatment, to which an hon. member for the Opposition also referred. We are not ashamed of this issue. The term “preferential treatment” was used as far back as 1976, but definite qualifications were attached. The hon. the Prime Minister said that the principle of preferential treatment existed, but he added the following condition (Hansard 1980, col. 5164)—

We must accept that, and I am sure that the teachers accept it too. The hon. the Prime Minister also said that as a result of this, the concept of differentiation between professions also entered the picture. I am convinced that hon. members of the Opposition and the teachers will recognize this. A further point which must also be taken into account is that this can only be effected within the economic capacity of the country. In all reasonableness and fairness, I think that if we want to argue about this we must also accept that, and I am convinced that the teachers also accept it.

However, a problem has now arisen with regard to a document and so on. Let us rather look at the road ahead. The hon. the Prime Minister showed the way in that he said that a comprehensive investigation of the problems of education should be launched. As far as I am concerned we must not immediately link this to a statement made by the hon. the Prime Minister after he had spoken to the Coloureds, because the hon. the Prime Minister indicated very clearly that this principle had already been accepted by the Cabinet prior to that, viz. that there could indeed be an investigation in respect of White education.

Earlier in the debate I said that a project committee existed and that this committee was doing outstanding work, because it had been directed to investigate the status of the educator in the South African context, and the consequences arising therefrom. I maintain that the project committee will, among other things, also investigate the conditions of service and salaries of teachers.

When are there going to be positive results.

I shall reply to that in a moment..

If I understand the position correctly, then, against the background of the whole concept of rationalization, it is the standpoint of this House that to establish sound and orderly administration of the country there have to be specific bodies which will ultimately have the highest advisory power. It is very clear to me, since we are dealing with an entire Public Service and working with the concepts the hon. the Prime Minister spoke about and so that we do not do certain groups an injustice, that we should have a body which should make a specific contribution with regard to salaries as such, whether it be the old Public Service Commission, or, as it is now known, the Commission for Administration. I accept that the Commission for Administration is the body which will be particularly knowledgeable about salaries in general within the Public Service. However this does not mean that education as such should not also make its contribution.

Now I want to ask that when the appointment of the commission of investigation is considered, we should bear in mind that the Education Structure Committee and the Education Structures Research Committee, which are permanent bodies which investigate these structures on a scientific basis, can make their knowhow available to the project committee on a permanent basis. If this happened and one wished to developed it further, one could give the project committee wider terms of reference. The project committee’s present terms of reference relate to the status of the educator.

As I see it, a committee such as the project committee could also easily be established for any of the other education groups, namely Coloureds, Asians and also the Blacks. It is clear to me, and this is also in line with what the hon. the Prime Minister said, that we can investigate education as a whole after consultation with the various education bodies. That is clear to me and I say so. I said it last year too. I say categorically that as far as I am concerned, parity must be reached among the various education systems. That is nothing new, and it is the Government’s stated policy.

If it is possible that there could be various project committees of this type that could investigate these problems of the various education systems on an on-going basis, a body could perhaps be established to which this information could be channelled so that co-ordinated action could be taken with regard to certain specific areas of contact within the various education systems. There are many of these, for example, examinations, standards and teacher training. There are a number of these things that one could mention where there may indeed be various areas of contact, but when I have said that, I also want to add immediately that this is poles apart from the standpoint of the official Opposition when they talk about one National Education Department. The hon. the Minister indicated this, and he is correct. The Unesco report, too, indicated that they rejected the idea that there should be one integrated education system, for the simple reason that education and culture cannot be separated.

Anticipating the commission.

I am not doing that. If the hon. member for Pinelands is again trying to score points off anyone, he is missing the whole point. I am speaking, as I see it, in the interests of education, and the hon. member for Pinelands had his chance. He could have spoken about that, but he spent his time scoring political points of people instead of serving education. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member’s second speech was a lot more constructive than the first one, although he did end on rather a bad note, because in discussing the various philosophies of education, the Government’s versus that of the PFP, he struck a note which is foreign to our ears. Although there may be difference in culture and background, it is only through a single educational structure that standards can be attained which are reasonably equal for all population groups. It is only in that way that the sort of discrimination which we have had in the past can be avoided, and it is only through a single educational structure that South Africa can ever hope to build a united nation to face the many enemies that the Government is always telling us about.

However, I do not wish to deal with education tonight. As I only have a moment or two, I should like to use those few moments for something else, because we are moving away now from the straight debate on education into the area of sport and recreation. At the outset I should like to extend to Mr. Beyers Hoek, the Secretary for Sport and Recreation, my good wishes and those of my colleagues, on Mr. Hoek’s impending retirement from the Public Service. I should like to wish Mr. Hoek a long and happy retirement. I should like to wish him a happy life free from the exigencies and burdens of the rather irascible members of Parliament who have been on his back for many years. I believe that Mr. Hoek has served South African sport well. He will be remembered for his calm approach to the many problems with which he has had to deal in matters of sport over the last years. If I may say so, Mr. Hoek will also be remembered for his meticulous, detailed, long and valuable report which he drafted over the past few years and which saw the light of day some two years ago, a report on the needs of sportsmen of South Africa in all the population groups. Many of the recommendations which were made by him then, are today still receiving attention to the benefit of all South Africans of all colours. Mr. Hoek takes leave of the department, of this House and of his sporting responsibilities at a time when South African sportsmen can look to the future with justifiably more hope than they have done in the past. I should like to say that some of that hope that we have, is due to the work of Mr. Hoek.

Mr. Chairman, in the time at my disposal, I should like to point out the importance of providing funds for sports administration, training and coaching and for the creating of sporting facilities.

A recent survey by the South African Olympic and National Games Association and the South African Sports Federation has undeniably proved that the promotion of sport and recreation constitutes an insignificant fraction of the South African domestic economy. Only 0,057% of South Africa’s total State revenue is being spent on the promotion of sport and recreation. Statistics indicate that for every rand per person spent on sport in South Africa, R17,92 is spent in Britain and R36,10 in West Germany. This lack of funds has had certain inevitable consequences. First of all, mass participation in the Republic is unsatisfactory. This, in turn, results in a lack of physical fitness. Secondly, sporting facilities in South Africa are inadequate. Thirdly, national sports festivals, which form part of the cultural tradition of a people, take place only sporadically. The RSA games, which were last held in 1973 and which ought to be held on a four yearly basis, could not be held in 1977 because of a lack of funds. In the fourth place, the scope and quality of administration, training and coaching in some sports is unsatisfactory. In the fifth place, we are very far behind as regards scientific research into sport. In the sixth place, there is a lack of efficient medical services in sport. In the seventh place there is poor international liaison. In the eight and final place there is a lack of community reaction on the part of the public at large.

The surest way to have South Africa re-admitted to international sport, is to produce so many world class achievements that it would be an embarrassment to exclude South Africa from sporting events. It is significant to note the statistics provided in the latest annual report. In the 1977-’78 financial year the department made an amount of R1 675 000 available to sporting and recreational bodies and research institutions. If one bears in mind that in that particular year applications totalling more than R7 million were submitted to the department, one realizes how inadequate is the financial assistance provided in South Africa. The statistics for 1978-’79 also show that the total cost of all projects for the promotion of normal sport and recreation and that of sporting facilities, sports research and special projects, amounted to approximately R31 million, of which the State was only able to contribute a little more than 5%, viz. R1 681 500. In last year’s budget only R100 000 was appropriated on a subsidy basis for creating facilities for sport on land and R50 000 for the creation of facilities for water sports.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.