Mr. Speaker, I move—

Votes Nos. 10 and 11: Finance; Audit.

Vote No. 12: Transport.

Votes Nos. 26, 27 and 28: Public Works; Statistics; Tourism.

Vote No. 29: Education and Training.

Agreed to.

Mr. Chairman, I ask for the privilege of the half-hour?

I have a number of matters to raise with the hon. the Minister. I believe most of them are priority matters that require very urgent attention. I believe, too, that we have lost a lot of valuable time in South Africa by not doing what should have been done over the last two or three years to offset the intense dissatisfaction urban Blacks have with their lot.

As I have said before, we need not necessarily have waited for the report of the Cillié Commission in order to know exactly what it was that stirred the pot and caused Soweto to come to the boil. We all know, and have known for years, that it is basically the policy of discrimination, of separate development, and the hopelessly inadequate facilities in the Black townships that obviously formed the background to the unrest we had. What we have had since then has been a lot of very rosy promises both abroad and at home about changes we could expect. I am afraid, however, that giving effect to those promises has proved to be very much more difficult than merely mouthing them. I want to urge the hon. the Minister now to move with more than all deliberate speed in order to implement the promises that have been made. I should like to precede what I have to say by commending the hon. the Minister for appointing Mr. Rive, the former Postmaster-General, as the Officer Commanding in the campaign to improve the whole lifestyle of the residents of Soweto. I also have no doubt that the appointment of Mr. Knoetze as the head of the West Rand Administration Board is a great improvement on that of his predecessor. I must say, however, that with the best will in the world, and no matter how capable these two gentlemen are, unless adequate finance is made available to them, I believe that their efforts are going to be undermined before they even get started.

The first priority I want to talk about is housing. I raised this matter during the Budget debate, and I gave a lot of figures to prove that the majority of the residents of Soweto cannot afford to pay the necessary rentals and service increases which would make the township self-sufficient. I pointed out as well that the housing shortage in Black urban areas has now reached monumental proportions. I want to remind hon. members that according to the Riekert Commission report the shortfall in the urban Black townships today is about 141 000 houses and 126 000 hostel beds and that it would cost, if the money were allocated, something like R764 million to wipe out the backlog only. As far as I can ascertain, about R89 million has been set aside for this purpose for the years 1979-’82. The Urban Foundation estimates that, in Soweto alone, there are more than 32 000 houses short. This is only as far as the priority list is concerned; not the secondary list. What really worries me is that so little is being done about this tremendous shortage.

I wonder whether the hon. the Minister will tell us what happened to the R50 million that was allocated last year specifically for Black urban housing out of the R250 million allocation for housing generally. Some of that, surely, must have been intended for Soweto. Yet, only 220 houses were built in Soweto last year. This year, I read, 3 620 houses are planned. At that rate, I hope the hon. the Minister realizes, it will take nearly ten years just to wipe out the backlog, let alone cope with the natural increase, which requires 2 000 houses per year.

What worries me is that there is still no sign of any large-scale housing programme in Soweto, and one-third of this year has already gone. One-third of the year has gone and there is still no sign of any large-scale building programme. On a very recent tour that I made of Soweto, I really had to look hard to find any houses under construction in that township at all. There is an Urban Foundation scheme in terms of which it is planned to have about 305 houses eventually in Pimville. About 24 are presently being built. The Johannesburg city council is building 50 houses for its employees, also in Pimville. In addition there are a handful of privately built houses. That is all. One can ride from one end of that enormous township to the other, without seeing any large-scale building schemes. Yet we all know that inadequate housing was one of the big grievances which caused the unrest in Soweto. Even now, people are sleeping 12 to a house in Soweto. That disgusting Mzimhlope hostel is still accommodating 1 200 people, and they are family people, not migrant workers. That compound was taken over from migrant workers after the riots and today 1 200 people are still living in Mzimhlope. I wonder whether the hon. the Prime Minister visited this blot on civilization when he paid his historic visit to Soweto, or was he whisked quickly past it so that he could not see it? Sir, it seems to me that paralysis has set in. Nothing seems to be done, and whether Messrs. Rive and Knoetze are able to treat and cure this malady, remains to be seen. As far as I can gather, the main problem is the lack of serviced land in Soweto. There is absolutely no available serviced land for new buildings in Soweto, I am told. Yet there is something like R200 million freely obtainable from private finance for the building of houses if only the serviced land was made available. There is unserviced land which could provide sites for something like 8 000 houses in Soweto, but somebody has got to provide the infrastructure, and it is my contention that that somebody is the State because the Government owes a huge debt to Soweto, and I might add, to all the other urban Black townships. Perhaps at this stage I should say that everything I am saying about Soweto, the shortage of accommodation, funds, etc., applies, mutatis mutandis, to almost all other Black townships in so-called White areas of South Africa. What we surely have to admit, if we are honest, is that the present parlous situation is due largely to the ridiculous so-called temporary sojourner policy which has been operating for so many years in South Africa and which has now been abandoned, but which has resulted in shamefully neglected urban townships.

It was also under that policy that so few houses were built in the past. I must remind hon. members that those houses which were built were built with money raised at economic rates of interest. There was no allowance made for the raising of money at sub-economic rates of interest, i.e. not until April last year, when the policy changed and money was made available to Black townships on the same basis as it is available to the other racial groups by the Housing Commission. The result has been that an enormous backlog developed and the townships all ran into tremendous deficits. All of them accumulated huge debts with the Housing Commission. That is why I believe the debts incurred as a result of this bad policy should be written off. At present R63 million is owed by the West Rand Administration Board to the Department of Community Development. It should simply be written off. It is a result of bad policy.

We have many precedents for the writing off of bad debts in South Africa. I might mention the bad debts written off by the Land Bank, as far as farmers are concerned.

That will be the day. [Interjections.]

I knew that would rouse them from their post-lunch stupor! One has only to mention the farmer for the Government to react with irritation.

I challenge you.

I want to mention that the bonsella which the hon. the Prime Minister so generously gave to the people of Soweto when he visited the township last year, turned out not to be so generous after all. [Interjections.] Would the hon. members please calm down? I promise not to mention the farmers again except right at the end of my speech.

Order!

There was an R11 million deficit which the hon. the Prime Minister said he had wiped off. That deficit turned out to be industrialists’ money. It turned out to be money which was lying in the Bantu Services Levy and which the West Rand Administration Board inherited from the municipalities when it took over the responsibility of the urban townships. “Big deal!” is all I can say.

So what?

The hon. the Prime Minister was just giving the Blacks money which belonged to them anyway. That is “So what”. It was industrialists’ money which was paid in, in order to provide services, but it was not used.

I know where it comes from.

Now the hon. the Prime Minister calmly writes it off and presents it as a generous gift to the West Rand Administration Board.

It is nothing else.

Nonsense. It is nothing of the kind. So let the Government make a genuine gift, although it would not really be a gift. It is, in fact, a debt. Let the Government write off the R63 million owed by the West Rand Administration Board. Apart from anything else, this would release thousands of houses for sale on 99-year leasehold, because at present—and I hope this policy is going to be changed—houses which are not wholly owned by the West Rand Administration Board are not eligible for 99-year leasehold. That means that only something like 40% of the houses in Soweto, for instance, are eligible for 99-year leasehold. I hope this policy is going to be changed, as I have said. I also understand— and I hope the hon. the Minister will tell us—that significant changes have been introduced in regard to the whole basis of the 99-year-leasehold scheme, because up to now it has been bedevilled by survey problems, by costs that are much too high and by an obstructive bureaucracy as well. According to the very latest figures I have at my disposal, the result has been that there are only 221 registered 99-year leases, with 825 applications in the pipeline. I hope the numbers will increase once the whole financial basis has been changed, something which I hear is being contemplated.

The real impetus to the 99-year leasehold scheme, however, would be the conversion to freehold. I was very glad indeed to read, from Mr. Louis Rive over the weekend, a statement saying that he believed that freehold should, in fact, be granted. The Government has said that 99-year leasehold is as good as freehold. I can only say that in the opinion of Black people this is not so. I believe that the granting of freehold would not only be a very significant gesture of goodwill, but would also give a feeling of stability to urban Black people. I believe it would encourage them to take part in community council elections.

A final point on housing. I hope the Government has not abandoned—perhaps the hon. the Minister would tell us whether the Government has or not—the idea of site-and-service schemes to cope with the emergency situation that has arisen as a result of the shortfall. The Government did this with great effect immediately after World War II when there was a big squatter problem, and I hope the Government will contemplate doing it again.

That is the only sensible thing you have said this afternoon.

The hon. the Deputy Minister is still fuming about the farmers. It seems to me he is more of a farmer than a Deputy Minister. Riekert recommended, and the White Paper accepted, the idea of site and service schemes.

This brings me to the Riekert report. It is almost a year since that report was tabled, together with the White Paper. I want to ask the hon. the Minister what is being done to implement the recommendations the Government accepted in regard to urban Blacks. Let me list them very quickly. On page 6 of the White Paper reference is made to the Blacks (Urban Areas) Consolidation Act. The commission recommended that Black persons who obtained section 10(1)(a) or (b) qualifications and who married or were already married should be allowed to have their families join them, provided accommodation were available, irrespective of the origin of the families. This was accepted. It has not however, to the best of my knowledge, been implemented, because there is no available housing. It was also recommended that such qualified Blacks should freely be able to transfer from jobs in one urban area to jobs in another urban area, and to live in the other urban area without any difficulty. Also, it was recommended that they should get a standing authorization from the Labour Bureau so that they only have to register once. To the best of my knowledge—and the hon. the Minister can tell me if I am wrong—that has not been implemented either, although it was accepted nearly a year ago.

There were also a number of sections of the Act that Riekert recommended should be repealed, and which the Government accepted. I am referring, for example, to section 29 which deals with idle and undesirable Blacks, and section 28 dealing with the removal of redundant Blacks. It was also recommended that section 29bis should be repealed, a section dealing with the removal of Blacks whose presence is detrimental. The same applies to section 38bis dealing with the procedure for the removal of inhabitants from a Black residential area. The removal of this section was recommended because it would conflict with the leasehold right or might hamper its practical application. Riekert also—and this is very important—recommended the repeal of section 31. The hon. the Minister knows that that is the curfew regulation. The White Paper accepted that curfew should be repealed. Why has the hon. the Minister not done this? In answer to a question I put to him on 13 February this year, he said to me the matter was still under investigation. Why is it under investigation if the Government accepted it last year? The hon. the Minister knows that curfew is a major irritation to adult Blacks in the urban areas. I want to tell him that no fewer than 20 777 people were arrested under curfew last year. Another thing is that the raids on the premises occupied by domestic servants in the urban areas have been stepped up and that there have been additional arrests as a result of this as well. Will the hon. the Minister tell us when, if ever, he is going to repeal the curfew? So far—and we are more than halfway through the session—there has not been a single law repealing those irritating discriminatory measures which Riekert strongly recommended should be repealed, and which the Government in fact agreed to repeal.

Now I come to the most important of all the irritations, namely the whole question of influx control and the pass laws, the “dompas”, on which the Minister declared war when he was in Washington. He appears, however, to have lost the battle at home in Pretoria and Bloemfontein.

You are talking nonsense.

Did you win it?

Of course.

He lost it at the time of the experiment to suspend the 72-hour provision in section 10(1). I hope the hon. the Minister is going to tell us that he won the battle. I hope he is also going to tell us that the experiment was a success and that he is therefore going to go ahead with the implementation of some of the recommendations of the Riekert Commission. Some have, of course, already been implemented. I shall come to that in a minute. It is significant that the Government has implemented the punitive recommendations of the Riekert Commission while it has not in any way implemented the ameliorating recommendations.

I might remind the Committee that Riekert recommended that the 72-hour provision limiting the presence of Blacks in urban areas unless they fall under the privileged group in terms of section 10(1)(a), (b), (c) or (d), should be repealed and that influx control should simply be based on the availability of work and approved housing. It furthermore recommended that exemptions be provided for certain classes of visitors to urban areas.

What did the White Paper, i.e. the Government, have to say about this recommendation? It said—

It is true that the Government rejected the repeal of the 72-hour provision. However, it then immediately seized on and implemented the recommendation that the fine applicable to employers who take on Blacks illegally in the urban areas should be increased up to a maximum of R500 for a first offence and to not less than R500 for subsequent offences.

It is my contention that Riekert never intended that the punitive provision of harsh fines on employers should be introduced without the pari passu implementation of the positive provision of scrapping the 72-hour limitation. I also cannot conceive that he contemplated the punitive provision on employers operating while the penalties imposed on Black workers unlawfully in employment continued to be implemented. That the Government has also not repealed, although Riekert stated that if one increased the fine on employers taking on Blacks illegally, there should be no fine imposed on Blacks unlawfully in employment. What has therefore in fact happened since the hon. the Minister declared war on the “dompas” and since Riekert reported, and the White Paper appeared, is that the impact of influx control has become infinitely worse.

Many thousands of “illegals” were of course saved by the moratorium granted last year. I know all about that, since I originally suggested it in the House. Over 84 000 Blacks were able to be registered and their jobs were saved. But the moratorium did not of course help those who fell outside its terms and if any of the approximately 84 000 workers in the meantime lost or left their jobs they were then endorsed out, as I understand it. They are not allowed to look for other jobs. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether he has sat down and thought about what is going to happen when the one-year period of the moratorium— people are registered for a year—comes to an end. That will be in a few months time. Are those people going to have the right to seek other jobs if they are dissatisfied with their present employment, or are they going to be tied to their present employers indefinitely, or are they simply going to be formally endorsed out? The point I want to make here very specifically is that domestic employees are particularly vulnerable in this regard. They are very vulnerable; they have no protection whatsoever as far as minimum wages are concerned; they have no protection as far as maximum hours of work are concerned and there is no protection as far as paid holiday leave is concerned, pensions or any of the rights that apply to other workers who are working in the industrial areas.

In the meantime, while all this is going on, the pass arrests are continuing, on and on— ad nauseam. I am just wondering whether the hon. the Minister is contemplating making another whistle-stop tour of the United States when this session ends and, if so, what is he going to tell them about his war on the “dompas”?

I shall tell you in my reply.

Well, I am very interested and I shall listen most attentively. I promise the hon. the Minister that. However, I must give the hon. the Minister a few statistics that maybe he would like to use in the United States. Does the hon. the Minister know that the police arrested 99 660 males and 20 290 females last year under influx control, pass laws and curfew law infringements? I wonder whether the hon. the Minister would give us some figures today since I have had a question on the Order Paper for quite a long time, asking how many arrests were made by the West Rand and other board officials throughout South Africa, because the Boards are also making a large number of arrests under influx control and the pass laws. If one adds those figures to the figure of over 120 000 that I have already given the Committee, one will see that the casualties under the pass laws are very heavy indeed. I do not have to tell the hon. the Minister that pass law arrests are the single greatest cause of friction in South Africa. I do not need to tell him that they poison the relationship between the Black people and the police who have to implement these unpopular laws. I do not have to tell him that influx control arrests and other pass law arrests take up an inordinate amount of time of the police who should be devoting themselves to arresting real criminals, not the statutory criminals under the pass laws. The hon. the Minister is as well aware of this as I am. He is committed to getting rid of “dompas”, and if he wants to make a name for himself in the history of South Africa, he must get on with the job of abolishing these laws. By this I do not mean—and I now use the words of the hon. the Minister in reply to a question I asked him earlier—“investigating the matter, in conjunction with the Black States, with a view to replacing the existing reference book with a new document”. New documents embodying the same restrictions on mobility are absolutely useless. There is only one humane way in which influx control into the urban areas can be exercised, and that is the simple way of improving standards of living in the rural areas by providing jobs in the homelands, and ensuring that wages paid to labourers on the “White” farms bear some relationship to the wages paid in the industrial areas. That is the only possible way in which the influx into the industrial areas can be controlled without any of the friction which we are experiencing at the present time.

All in all I have to say in conclusion that as one who came to Cape Town this year full of high hopes that we were going to see the repeal of discriminatory legislation, that positive steps were going to be taken to remove some of the genuine grievances of the Black people in South Africa, so far this session has proved to be a great disappointment.

Mr. Chairman, if the hon. member for Houghton broaches half a dozen matters to which one should like to reply and one has ten minutes in which to do so, how is one to set to work? Consequently I shall only reply to the first matter broached by the hon. member, viz. the question of housing. The hon. member for Houghton spoke in truly socialistic terms as though housing for Blacks were the exclusive responsibility of the State. She spoke of a “backlog of monumental proportions” and of 141 000 houses that had to be built for R764 million. I shall presently furnish the figures relating to what has already been done and what still has to be done. Then she will really see what “monumental proportions” are. The hon. member speaks as if Soweto were the only Black city in this country. I could also refer to the 310 other residential areas for Blacks in White areas.

I want to refer to the housing in the national States as well. Up to 1960 there were only three Black towns in the national States, with 2 000 dwelling units and a population of approximately 16 000. 18 years later this figure has increased to 78 Black towns, with 180 000 dwelling units and a population of 1,6 million. Over a period of 18 years the urban population in the national States has increased a hundredfold and there is an annual growth rate of 14,6%, so that more than one fifth of the Black people in the Black States today have been urbanized in their own area. In White areas there were 484 000 dwelling units for Blacks and 300 000 beds in hostels for single persons in 1978. Then the hon. member for Houghton asks the hon. the Minister what has been done in connection with the recommendation of the Riekert Commission, that “the women and children also be allowed in the urban areas”. Surely we have the figures here. Only 300 000 Blacks of the 3,7 million for whom accommodation has been provided in the past 20 years are persons without their families living in hostels. If I make a quick calculation, this gives a percentage of approximately 8%.

Read the Riekert Commission report.

The remaining people are accommodated on a family basis. There are 484 000 families. This large housing effort has been virtually exclusively a Government effort. If, then, we look with pride at these 5,3 million people who have been accommodated in recent years, the hon. member seeks to disparage this achievement. “So little has been done”, she says. But 5,3 million people have been accommodated “by this malign Government that oppresses the Blacks”. However, that tremendous percentage is completely dwarfed if one makes a projection of the future and estimates what still has to be done. It is estimated that no fewer than 4,1 million houses will have to be built for Blacks in the national States and in White areas by the end of this century. 2½ million will have to be constructed in the national States and 1,6 million here in the White areas. If one were to examine the cost of these 4,1 million houses which are to be built, one’s mind simply boggles, for one is faced with astronomical figures. It completely dwarfs the R764 million of the hon. member for Houghton. If we estimate that the construction cost of the standard type 51/9 house was R3 000 in 1975 and that building costs are rising at an average of 10% per annum, it is estimated that by the year 2000 it will cost no less than R56 billion to build those 4,1 million houses—and then we have not even taken into account the infrastructure needed for those houses. There are roads to be built, water and electricity to be laid on, schools to be built, recreation facilities, business premises to be constructed, etc. It is estimated that this will cost more or less the same as the housing, which means that an additional R56 billion will have to be spent. Thus a total of R112 billion will be required to carry out this colossal programme by the year 2000. Surely we know that the Government simply does not have this money. This means a budget nine times bigger than the existing budget just to make provision for Black housing. Hon. members of the Opposition are quick to refer to the “gold bonanza”. The hon. the Minister of Finance expects the tax yield from the gold mines to amount to R1 850 million. However, it will cost 60 times this amount to carry out this housing programme, and the Government simply cannot do this alone, for the costs are prohibitive. That is why I want to make a plea this afternoon for us to adopt the solution which the hon. the Minister of Finance indicated in his budget, i.e. that the private sector must avail itself of the existing tax advantages if it shares in this housing programme. I believe that a concentrated programme is necessary to bring this to the attention of the private sector and to mobilize them into having a greater share in this programme. This is to the advantage of the private sector. There are tremendous tax benefits in this for them and apart from that they will have the assurance that they have a stable work force.

There are almost unlimited opportunities for the private sector to construct houses for their employees in the national States. I shall come back at a later stage to the tremendous advantages this involves for them. In the White areas there are three schemes in which the private sector can have a share. There is the homeownership scheme, the 99-year leasehold scheme and the sub-economic rent scheme for employees with an income limit of R250 per month. This involves enormous tax benefits for employers.

In the farming sector there is a 100% tax write-down on housing provided for Blacks up to a maximum of R5 000 per unit. In the economically developing area there is an unlimited accommodation. Here a tax write-down of 125% of the construction costs, over a period of 10 years is granted, and in all other industrial sectors 50% of the construction costs can be claimed as a tax deduction, up to a maximum of R4 000. This means that a company which is going to construct houses for its employees in the White area, in Soweto or wherever, will receive a tax write-down of R1 680 on an amount of R4 000. In the farming sector the advantages are even more attractive. For an amount of R5 000 invested by a farming company in housing, it receives tax relief of R2100. In the economically developing areas we find that an industrialist who has invested R4 000 saves R5 000 in tax over a period of 10 years. This is really something to write home about. Surely this is an offer one cannot refuse. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Houghton had a great deal to say about influx control. However, influx control is not simply aimed at controlling Black penetration into White areas. I maintain that an uncontrolled influx into White areas will eventually hit the Blacks hardest. The Blacks in the labour structure are going to commit economic suicide if this influx were to continue uncontrolled and unrestricted. Is this what the hon. member for Houghton wants? I should like to enter into a debate with her in this regard.

The interdependence of the Republic of South Africa, the various national States and the other independent Southern African States in the labour sphere is generally recognized and accepted. The Black people in White areas also form an integral part of our labour structure. It is only necessary for this interdependence to be recognized and honoured. Our economy is in an upward phase. This growth must be maintained and developed.

Our economic activities are still largely based on labour-intensive activities, and with our population structure it is certainly necessary for this to remain the case for a long time yet. On occasion I have warned that the Black worker, the semi-skilled and unskilled worker in particular, should not contract himself out of the labour market by demands for higher wages, in the manufacturing sector in particular and, to a large extent, in farming as well, where there are tremendous possibilities for mechanization. The employers themselves must also guard against creating such a situation, with their offers of higher wages, in which they will eventually be unable to meet the wage account, particularly if our economy were to show a downward trend. As soon as the labour market becomes too expensive, workers become scarce and there is more unemployment, which has an immediate effect on the unskilled and semi-skilled worker. The Black worker would suffer most as a result. For that reason I advocate that everything be done rather to improve the conditions of employment of these workers. The State, the various administration boards, the local authorities and, as the hon. member for Port Natal said, the employers and workers as well, can contribute a great deal towards improving conditions of employment.

We have often held debates in this House about essential and fast commuter transport which must be aimed at bringing about improved conditions. I simply cannot accept that a worker has to leave his home at 4 o’clock in the morning to return again at only 9 o’clock or 10 o’clock in the evening, as a result of poor transport services. I believe this is an unhealthy state of affairs which results in the worker, the domestic servant in particular, being confined to a backyard away from his or her family. I believe and know that the Black worker wants a more normal employment situation. Opportunities to get to work quickly in the morning and to come home quickly in the evening must be created so that the worker can enjoy a healthy and normal family life. However, it is necessary for us to compel the Black purchaser of consumer goods to come and buy his supplies in the White areas with great difficulty and at great expense? I should like to know from the hon. the Minister whether he could possibly give us an indication in this regard. When the worker is in a White area during the day in order to work, he also has certain primary needs which have to be satisfied. One of these is surely a need for a place where he can relax during his lunch hour. The employers and the owners of buildings surely have a major task in this regard to create proper facilities.

In this connection I want to refer specifically to Church Square, Pretoria. Church Square is surely not intended to be the resting place for just anybody. The fact that people lounge around there—note that at times a few Whites lounge around there as well—is simply no longer acceptable to the inhabitants of Pretoria. Church Square is historically linked to the past of the Whites in Pretoria and we should like to see Church Square as a tourist attraction, with pulsating life and everything that an orderly way of life involves, and not as a place for people to lounge about aimlessly and lie basking in the sun like rock rabbits (“dassies”). I almost said like corpses after a battle.

We could argue about this, and ask whose fault it is that Church Square looks as it does. It is certainly true that everyone is guilty. The owners of buildings who do not create adequate facilities are guilty; the employer who does not make provision for his workers, may be guilty too. However, I maintain that even the Blacks are displaying a large measure of willfulness since the local city council in Pretoria has specifically created facilities on the corner of Schoeman and Paul Kruger Streets, where a place for dining and resting is available. However, insufficient use is being made of those facilities, and Church Square continues to be the place to lie and rest for those who have used it as such in the past. They do not want to avail themselves of the new facilities.

The Pretoria City Council and other persons and bodies have recently created adequate eating houses and resting places for their various workers so that the influx into Church Square is no longer necessary. May I appeal to the Black workers in Pretoria to make use of the additional facilities so that the irritating abuse of Church Square may be avoided? I also appeal to the inhabitants of Pretoria to deal with this matter with the greatest circumspection, but also with the greatest resolution.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Gezina made an appeal to the workers in Pretoria not to he down, as he says, like “dassies” in the sun on Church Square in Pretoria. This appears to irritate the hon. member, but I am sure he will realize that Black people in the urban areas like to take advantage of any facility offered to them. He indicated that the city council of Pretoria has made other facilities available which are just as convenient. In view of that I think that he might make propaganda on another scale and in another place. I think the tone in which he said it or the way in which he referred to Black people does not become him and it seems to me that he is deliberately looking for some kind of confrontation. [Interjections.]

The question to which I wish to devote my attention today concerns the statement which the hon. the Minister made that apartheid was dead. We in this House have a memory of the past of the party on the other side. I do not bring this up in a spirit of recrimination, but because I wish to take the statement of the hon. the Minister at its face value. What I want to say to the hon. the Minister is that the caricature of apartheid to which he referred when he said that apartheid was dead, was the picture of apartheid as projected by the late Dr. Verwoerd and his followers in that party in the past year. The caricature was provided by one of the hon. Ministers of that party and I refer specifically to the late Mr. Blaar Coetzee who, while sitting in those benches, came forward with the famous year 1978 when all these things would have changed. Those things that would have changed are all the things which made a caricature of the sort of thing which the hon. the Minister is trying to explain away when he visits countries overseas. It does not behove us in this House to forget that those things were said about this policy. Yet the hon. the Minister is now trying his best to get away from them and to change them. I want to put this point to the hon. the Minister. The more power is given to an area like Soweto, the less does the policy that the late Dr. Verwoerd enunciated in the past have relevance to what is now happening under the present Government. If we look at it in this way, the practical, administrative, day-to-day running of an area such as Soweto, and also of all the other places mentioned by the hon. member for Port Natal, causes tremendous administrative problems. These are Black areas within so-called White South Africa. They have to be run, and the White man in South Africa cannot continue to run them any longer. More and more power has to be given to the Black residents of those areas to run those places themselves. That involves a level and a measure of joint decision-taking between the White authorities in these areas and the Black authorities themselves. The more one takes joint decisions with people the more power they acquire and the higher the level goes at which joint decisions are to be taken. I put it to the hon. the Minister that in Soweto a level of decision taking is going to have to be reached on which the homeland leaders will not figure. Therefore I should put it to the hon. the Minister that he is eventually going to be faced with a situation, which the NRP have postulated, in which urban Blacks will have to be accepted as a reality in the situation in South Africa, a situation in which they will have to be counted in a relationship with the White, the Indian and the Coloured communities in the so-called White areas of South Africa regardless of whatever is done with the Black homeland areas in the larger confederation.

The hon. the Minister is going to find himself being drawn into a situation from which, by the sheer logic of events, he will not be able to escape. That is the situation in which he is going to find himself. I must point out though that we find that the hon. the Minister exudes sincerity and goodwill. The enthusiasm with which he speaks whenever he addresses people—Black people as well—is something we find very taking and touching indeed. Helen of Troy was referred to as “the face that launched a thousand ships”.

Come off it. [Interjections.]

Of the hon. the Minister, I believe, it can be said that he has the face that launched a thousand quips. The hon. the Minister is trying very hard indeed to solve problems which are immense.

The hon. member for Port Natal referred to housing. I do not believe it is possible for us to solve the problem of housing in this country until private enterprise is involved in Black housing on the entirely normal basis of profit making, in the normal flow of free enterprise. The hon. member for Port Natal is quite right when he says that the Government and the State cannot possibly cover the costs which are involved in providing decent, reasonable housing for the Black community. The problem we have had until now has been the following. Because they did not give security of tenure, because they regarded Black people as transient, the Government created no basis on which a normal commercial undertaking could be based for the providing of housing in any way that could fit into the free-enterprise system. Even the 99-year leasehold is not, I believe, the final answer. Sooner or later we will have to introduce some kind of a freehold system in which the normal flow of free enterprise can be accommodated.

The question of influx control was also raised. This is absolutely relevant to the question of housing. In the situation in which we are placed I personally do not believe that influx control can be phased out. I simply cannot see that, in the situation in South Africa today, we can simply erase the whole scheme and allow just anybody to come into the urban areas. This is, of course, a universal problem. Every other developing country in the world is faced with the same situation. With bad harvests, bad floods or any sort of bad conditions in the rural areas there is an uncontrollable influx of people into the urban areas, and the conditions and the problems they create are absolutely indescribable. I think that one thing we have been able to achieve is that with influx control at least some form of control has been maintained. I have to point out to the hon. the Minister, however, that it is not solving the problem. In Natal, for instance, where certain areas of kwaZulu are close to the metropolitan area of Pietermaritzburg and also to Hammersdale, there is an increasing density of settlement. This has created, is creating and will create in certain areas rural slums of a sort which the hon. the Minister and the kwaZulu Government, which is now responsible for them, have got no way of coping with. This is an entirely different problem to housing in the urban areas. In the urban areas there are all kinds of measures, e.g. health control, streets and lights, sanitation and all such like. However, another problem is building up in the rural areas, particularly in Natal because kwaZulu is honeycombed into the body of Natal, which is certainly going to need a great deal more support and concern than has been shown in the past. I draw it to the hon. the Minister’s attention because I think it is an absolutely vital matter to which we are going to have to give attention.

One of the problems one faces when one talks about housing and the normal free enterprise way of providing housing is employment and the generation of wealth. We had already discussed the matter of the participation of Black people in the economy of South Africa. The recommendations of the Wiehahn Commission and Riekert Commission have opened the doors. If the hon. the Minister does not take the most urgent action with his hon. Cabinet colleagues to make sure that the recommendations are enacted on an increasing, rapid and more open-ended scale the race will not be won. The race is to provide wealth in the Black community on such a scale that they will be able to bear the costs out of their normal day to day earnings themselves, costs which the Government has tried to bear until present out of tax revenues and which, it is quite apparent, they simply cannot bear any longer. I think it is important for the White community to realize the effort made by the Government, and I give them credit where credit is due. An immense effort has indeed been made. But we have come to the end of our tether as far as that is concerned. We cannot continue to foot the tax bill which the demands of those areas are making upon the economy of South Africa. The alternative is for the Government to take immediate action and to scrap all the verkramptheid that has barred them in the past so that they can get down to it and make sure the involvement of the Black people in the new situation is one of real urgency. I want to put it to the hon. the Minister that the leadership of any community is the most priceless asset they have. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I want to congratulate the hon. member for Mooi River on his positive and constructive contribution to the debate. We do not agree with everything he said. He said quite a number of things which are against the policy of the NP, but at least he tried to be constructive and positive, unlike a member of the hon. official Opposition, the hon. member for Houghton. She rose in this House, and what did she do? From first to last she was destructive. She did not make one single suggestion which could be construed in a positive way. She told us things we knew, but for which she does not accept any responsibility because she is not prepared to help with them. I just want to put a few things to her.

†She says the cost of housing in Soweto is exorbitant. The cost of renting housing at the moment is between R35 and R40. Most of the people in Soweto earn a lot more than that. However, I have yet to hear that hon. member urging people to pay their employees higher wages. I have yet to experience that.

[Inaudible.]

The hon. member has never done so, not in my presence in the House.

Rubbish. I have said so time and again. You don’t listen.

The hon. member criticizes the Government because it saw fit to allow Soweto, when the Community Council had its difficulties, to write R11 million off. Those were funds which had accumulated over the years. Yet she criticized even that.

*I now want to challenge that hon. member. She makes the most irresponsible statements in the hope of building a case upon them. Where does she get the idea that the Government and the Land Bank simply write off the debts of farmers?

[Inaudible.]

But they have never done so. Why does the hon. member not prove what she says? It is a blatant lie.

Please stick to your portfolio.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: Is the hon. the Deputy Minister allowed to say that the hon. member for Houghton has told a “blatant lie”?

Order! Did the hon. the Deputy Minister say that?

Yes, Mr. Chairman, I said it. She told a blatant untruth.

Order! The hon. the Deputy Minister must first withdraw “blatant lie”.

Mr. Chairman, I withdraw it, and I say that her knowledge of the truth is very shaky.

Order! The hon. the Deputy Minister must withdraw the words without qualification.

Mr. Chairman, I withdraw the words. The member said …

The “hon.” member.

I should prefer the Chairman to maintain order here, because the order maintained by those hon. members means nothing. The hon. member said that farmers’ debts were all written off by the Government. When she makes such a statement, I contend that she is not acquainted with the truth and that she does not have much respect for the truth either. She says that there is only one solution to the problems of Soweto, and that is that we should create more job opportunities for the Black people in the rural areas. Who is creating more jobs for the Black people than our farming population? The people she insulted here a short while ago are the people who are creating jobs for the Black people in the rural areas, not she and her kind.

You have no respect for the truth.

I wonder whether she has ever tried to persuade a single firm or company to move their factories to the borders, or to the rural areas where jobs can be created for these people.

[Inaudible.]

It is easy to sit in an ivory tower in Houghton, criticizing left and right and dictating what should be done. She does not bear any responsibility herself, however. I do not want to spend much time on her.

It is quite clear to me that there is an undertone of concern in this House, especially about the housing of our Black people. I share that concern about housing for our Black people, because I deal with that particular situation.

The basic needs of any human being, whether white or coloured, black, pink or red, are food, clothing and a roof over his head. These are the basic requirements which every person’s human dignity demands. Political rights, and the things that go with them, which are strongly emphasized by the PFP, are very low on the list of priorities of any developing or underdeveloped person. I believe that housing for the masses, a part of which is entrusted to me as Deputy Minister, is the aspect in respect of which the greatest need exists in our country at the moment. Shortages in this field form a potential flashpoint in our whole society. There are 18 million Black people in the Republic at the moment. It is estimated that this number will double in 20 years’ time. This means that seven cities of approximately the size of Soweto will be required by the year 2000. When we take all this into consideration, the situation seems alarming. The hon. member for Port Natal also referred to this.

We must not take only a negative view of these things. Where large towns develop, growth points also develop. In these growth points, jobs are provided for thousands of people. Especially when we bear in mind that rapid progress is being made with the professional and technical training of our Black people, one finds some consolidation in the fact that there are some benefits attached to the creation of large Black cities. In the period of development and training which we are now entering, it is important in the plural society in which we live to accommodate our sociological and our economic affairs satisfactorily on a national, regional and local level. If we do not, we shall not be able to achieve social and political stability. If this cannot be done, our economic growth will not be satisfactory.

In an excellent speech made recently by Mr. John Knoetze, chairman of the West Rand Administration Board, of which I have seen a copy, he quotes as follows from the book Shaping an urban future by the two sociologists Freden and Nash—

Having Black people in urban areas holds specific and recognized economic advantages, which means that in carrying out their function of caring for the Black people, the authorities should create the necessary opportunities and facilities for their social organization and welfare. However, I allege that the role of the government sector in the provision of housing and the combating of the enormous backlog can no longer be borne by the State alone. In recent times, factors have come into play which have slightly alleviated this facet of our society, this housing shortage. We have had the reintroduction of a house-ownership scheme. This scheme was reintroduced as an established practice three years ago. It has made a major contribution. I am still coming to the statement that far more Black people than we imagine are able to build their houses themselves if we supply the infrastructure. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I rise to give the hon. the Deputy Minister an opportunity to complete his speech.

I thank the official Opposition for its courtesy. This scheme is creating new opportunities for helping to wipe out large backlogs in Black housing. There is an approximate shortage of at least 200 000 dwelling units in our Black townships.

At the moment, the task of wiping out this backlog is mainly in the hands of the administration boards, which consult and co-operate closely with all the relevant Government institutions as well as the private sector, which we hope will now, with the economic upswing, be increasingly involved in the provision of dwellings for their Black people. I want to appeal to people.

[Inaudible.]

If the hon. member would only be quiet, if she would only join me in calling for that co-operation instead of always being critical of it, we could get somewhere in this country. Constant negative criticism does not get us anywhere, not even if it comes from the hon. member for Houghton. She also has something to contribute. She also lives in this world. She lives with us.

In the carrying out this task, two economic factors in particular must be kept in mind, i.e. firstly, the provision of capital by the Government sector in financing housing schemes which have specific limits and are therefore confined …

Ignorance is …

Mr. Chairman, may I ask that hon. member please to be quiet for one moment so that I may complete my speech in silence?

Order!

In the second case, the optimum use must be made of such funds in order to build as many houses as possible at a price which is within the means of the prospective tenant or buyer. We have seen in practice—I want to emphasize this—that a growing demand is developing among prospective house-owners in the broad middle-income group, representing approximately 60% of the community, for a simpler, but financial house which is cheaper than a fully finished house at a higher price, for which there is a limited demand. The most popular dwelling in these townships is in the R3 000 to R4 000 price class. In future, Government funds will increasingly have to be used for land and essential services, such as water, sewerage, transportation and electricity, while all dwellings and hostels, except housing for those in need of care, will have to be finished jointly on an economic basis by the prospective house-owners or tenants, their employers and financial institutions. I believe, and experts have proved this, that the willingness and ability of a large percentage of the Black people to contribute to their housing themselves is being hopelessly underestimated.

The internationally accepted norm is that one should spend 25% of one’s income on housing. In Soweto, that suburb with which the hon. member for Houghton is so intimately acquainted, the average part of their income which people spend on housing is less than 10%; in other words, in Soweto itself there are a large number of people who would be able, if encouraged to do so, to build their own houses, either under the house-ownership scheme or under the leasehold scheme.

Now I may be asked: Who is to supply those houses? The ability of the State to make up this housing backlog on its own is being exhausted. Even subsidizing is assuming such astronomical proportions that the task of the State will have to be confined to the provision of infrastructure and the things that go with it. The private sector will increasingly have to do its duty by providing housing for its employees. One is grateful for the fact that some of these people, big firms, especially on the Rand and in the PWV complex, are already providing accommodation for their workers on a large scale. We are thinking, for example, of the mines, who provide an excellent service in this connection. However, the private sector will have to realize that we simply cannot go on in this way. The leasehold house-ownership scheme will have to be propagated in a more enthusiastic and purposeful way, as we are already trying to do, but we also have to remove the prejudices which exist against the leasehold scheme in particular.

Then I come to a final solution to these problems, a solution which I know does not meet with the approval of the Department of Community Development. Nevertheless, when we are dealing with the Black people who earn low wages, especially in our rural areas and especially in the smaller towns, where there simply are no jobs for those people and where there is no economy to justify the payment of large salaries to these people, we shall very seriously have to consider creating more plot and service schemes. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with these schemes if they comply with certain standards and if the services that are provided are adequate and efficient. We shall come to a stage where we find that some of our smaller towns or townships will simply disintegrate, or the people who live there will develop into a squatter community. This we want to prevent at all costs.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Deputy Minister discussed housing, and later on in my speech I intend dealing very thoroughly with the question of housing. In doing so I shall react further to what was said by the hon. the Deputy Minister. I agree with the hon. the Deputy Minister, of course, that it is very important and essential that the private sector should make its contribution too. The private sector must make its contribution if we ever want to solve this problem.

The first question one has to pose and which is very important in a department such as this, relates to the attitude of the hon. the Minister himself. I think there are very few people, if any, who will not agree that the hon. the Minister has the right attitude. But the hon. the Minister must have other qualities as well so as to be able to cope with this department successfully. The major problem the hon. the Minister has to contend with is that of funds, whether he has sufficient funds to do justice to all the important projects falling under his department.

†I believe that the Government could raise far greater sums of money in the form of local and foreign loans in order to provide for the vital needs of the hon. the Minister’s department. The reason why I speak of the Government borrowing money locally and abroad for specific projects is because the hon. the Minister knows that he cannot obtain this money by ordinary budget allocations. With all the goodwill in the world, it is not possible for Parliament to allocate sufficient money for the hon. the Minister to carry out all the projects he wants to carry out. Therefore it is imperative that money is borrowed, both locally and abroad. Obviously, the private sector will have to play its part to the full, more especially in the field of housing. It is important that we build twin cities and towns, twin cities in the sense that the Black cities must have all the amenities that their White counterparts have. It is essential that there should be proper townships planning, with enough open spaces, and that these townships be beautified. Housing, educational facilities, job opportunities, etc., and the right to administer their own local authorities, are matters which must enjoy the urgent attention of this hon. Minister. Housing and home-ownership are most important factors in creating stability and a sense of permanence. Home-ownership gives a person a very real stake and an interest in South Africa. The hon. the Minister, his department, private enterprise, Community Councils, the Administration Boards and the building societies must move heaven and earth to encourage Black lessees to urgently change over to home-ownership. If the operation succeeds, we can have a nation of home-owners in South Africa virtually overnight, instead of a nation of lessees. The main reason for a lessee not buying a house is the fact that he does not have the necessary deposit. It may also be that he cannot afford the necessary instalments. Let us say a house costs R6 000 and that the building society grants a bond of R5 000. The purchaser is still short of R1 000. Let us assume that he can raise the deposit of R400. Then he still needs R600. If the Government would guarantee that amount of R600, the building society could advance a bond of R5 600. The net effect would be that the Government would sell the house for R6 000, while R5 600 would be paid by the building society to the Government on registration of the bond and the balance of R400 by the purchaser himself. If this could be done in the case of every Black lessee, the Government would receive, as repayment, hundreds of millions of rand which it would be able to use again for the building of new houses. This money would come from the building societies which would then also play its part to the full. These millions of rands so released, will assist the hon. the Minister and his department in eliminating the enormous backlog in housing. This money would go into new housing and would have an enormous impact on the building industry and on the question of creating new jobs. The amount of money invested in Black housing outside the homelands is approximately R316 million, and with that amount approximately 400 000 houses have been built. But one must take into account that the R316 million that was invested in Black housing, would probably have been two, three or four times more if those houses were to be built at today’s costs. I fully realize that many Black people, because of their income, will not qualify for a building society loan, but in Soweto, the example quoted by the hon. member for Houghton, approximately 50% of the people earn more than R250 per month and could thus qualify for a building society loan. As such, the full R316 million cannot be repaid by building society loans, because some people will not qualify. However, the number of people who would qualify, would still allow the hon. the Minister’s department to get a very substantial repayment, and, as I have said, the money would come from the building society movement. I also believe that if the Government should launch a specific project, e.g. Project Housing, sufficient funds could be borrowed from both local and foreign investors to make an enormous impact on the alleviation of the backlog of Black housing.

I urge the hon. the Minister to give this matter his urgent consideration, and to agree to investigate this matter urgently and to tell us so during the course of this debate. I welcome his reply to a question on the Order Paper to the effect that approximately R20 million will be spent over the next five years to bring electricity to 18 000 houses in the Black townships of Port Elizabeth. The hon. the Minister further said that it was the intention to lay on electricity in all new houses. We would like the hon. the Minister to consider the electrification of the 18 000 houses referred to as a matter of urgent priority as this would have an enormous effect on the improvement of the quality of life on the Black people living in those houses. The chairman of the Chamber of Commerce, who is actively involved in business, holds the view that the whole life-style of the Black people would change if this was done. The standard of living would improve and its beneficial effects would be felt in almost every sphere. He goes on to say that with electrification productivity will be increased. He says that from his experience some workers come to work not having been properly fed, not because they do not have the food, but because they do not have the proper instruments and implements to facilitate cooking and making it easier for them to have a meal before they leave their homes. Electrification will also start a mini retail boom in Port Elizabeth, because it goes without saying that articles such as irons, toasters, kettles, stoves and other electrical appliances will be bought in large quantities and will make life much easier for the purchasers of these items. The effect will be that the appliance manufacturing industry will have an increased turnover and it would, in turn, lead to the creation of more job opportunities. The expenditure of approximately 20 million in the Port Elizabeth area will in itself be a great boost to that area. As the hon. the Minister knows, Port Elizabeth is very dependent on the motor industry. We are very grateful to the motor industry, but it is also important that there should be diversification in the area and therefore this R20 million should be spent as soon as possible for the reasons that I have outlined. In expediting the electrification the hon. the Minister will be assisting the Black people, the appliance manufacturing industry, the retail industry and create job opportunities. We are confident that this plea to the hon. the Minister will not fall on deaf ears. The Black townships need the assistance of the hon. the Minister in many other respects and we hope that his purse strings will always hang loosely and fairly open towards the needs of the Black townships throughout South Africa.

The economic viability of the Black homelands must be a matter of grave concern to the hon. the Minister. It is essential that these homelands offer better concessions than any other country to potential industrialists in order to attract local and more foreign investors. I know that excellent concessions are offered by the homelands and that these are among the best in the world, but there are a few other countries that offer even better concessions. I understand that in recent times a department conducted an investigation into certain countries that offer better concessions. One country that offers better concessions is an old established country which is far more industrialized and far better established than any of the homelands. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I merely rise so as to afford the hon. member the opportunity to complete his speech.

Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the hon. member for the opportunity. We believe that our concessions must be improved to the extent of equalling of bettering the best concessions in order to ensure that the South African economy and the economy of the homelands will not be losing out to any other country. I hope that the hon. the Minister will do his best in this regard by having the matter fully investigated because there is no reason whatsoever why we should lose industries to any other country simply because they offer better concessions than in South Africa or the homelands. I believe that our concessions should equal, or even better, the concessions offered by any other industrialized country.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Walmer discussed certain aspects of housing and industrial establishment in the national States. I, too, am in favour of a far greater effort to lure industries to the national States and to encourage them to establish themselves there.

Last year, during the bus strike in Ezakheni, I became involved in a number of discussions with Black leaders in the vicinity. One of the major problems and complaints they raised was that the work they had to do always had to be in a White area, and that industries were encouraged to establish themselves in the White border areas, but that no industrial settlement took place within the Black area, near the residential areas that had been built at great cost in the Black areas. I must honestly say that I fully sympathize with the appeal made by the Blacks that industries should be built within the Black areas and near their residential areas. However, I realize that problems are being experienced and that industrialists are to a large extent hesitant to establish themselves there because they are uncertain as to the possibility of nationalization. However, I must also point out that Chief Minister Gatsha Buthelezi in particular has already said openly and emphatically on various occasions that he is in favour of the development of industries on the basis of private enterprise and has given the full assurance that no nationalization of industries will take place. I think that negotiations should perhaps be conducted on this basis with a view to making it known and possible that industrial settlement can take place in Black areas.

Since I am covering this ground, I want to express my dismay once again at the general approach that industrial expansion must always needs take place in areas where intensive development is already taking place, and that it should also be made possible by Government action that further industrial development can take place in those areas. I am referring to the stupidity of spending large amounts, amounts of hundreds of millions of rands, to pump water over the Drakensberg to supply adequate water for industrial expansion in the PWV area, while at the same time Zulus are also being brought across the Drakensberg to be settled in rented houses which have to be built for them in the PWV area. They are taken away from their families to go and work in the PWV area. This is absolutely stupid. I want to advocate that planning be carried out within the framework of a total strategy and that the industries should far rather be encouraged to establish themselves in Natal and as far as possible in kwaZulu, in accordance with their need for Black labour, to enable them to operate their industries economically.

There is another aspect about which I should like to say something, i.e. the control over the land which is bought by the Development Trust for the settlement of Blacks who have to be resettled in terms of the consolidation proposals. It is increasingly coming to my attention that due to a variety of reasons, one of which is the lack of adequate staff, there is a total lack of control over land bought by the Trust, and that an unchecked influx to and demolition of houses and other structures are taking place on that land. In other areas where large tracts of land are being purchased, which are specifically intended for the settlement of Blacks from certain areas which have to be cleared out in terms of the consolidation proposals, it is now being found that so many Blacks have already streamed in there —uncontrolled, of course—that there is no longer place to accommodate those Blacks that have to be resettled. Consequently I should now like to make an urgent request that the department should do everything in its power to apply control in areas over which it has control, as well as to ensure that that control is applied in such a way that the land in question is utilized for the purpose for which it was purchased. This does not only involve land required for resettlement. I do not want to mention these specific areas now. I shall mention them personally to the hon. the Minister later on. However, there are many areas in Natal where things of this nature have been taking place. This is something which is really not conductive to a situation in which the Government can fulfil its duty. It undermines the authority of the Government and, more specifically, that of the department.

That is why I feel obliged to bring this matter to the attention of the hon. the Minister during this debate.

In addition I should also just like to refer to the uncontrolled influx of people to areas which are often in private possession. Just outside Durban is the area known as Inanda, where a large number of plots belong to private individuals, Whites as well as Indians. Since it is situated near to the employment opportunities in Durban, there is at present uncontrolled influx into the area, to such an extent that health services have suffered. There is no longer water. There has also been an outbreak of gastric fever. There is simply a total lack of control over those areas. I am referring to the conditions on private property belonging to Whites and Indians. These are private individuals who simply make available a piece of land to squatters who then, without any measure of control, construct their dwellings there. The new term which is being used for these houses is “informal houses”. This is a euphemistic term, which is supposed to lend them an aura of acceptability. I want to request that an investigation be instituted into ways of combating an uncontrolled influx of this nature. If the Government is no longer in a position to exercise control in this regard, it will become totally impossible ever to master the problem of housing.

I want to request that provision be made on land belonging to the Trust for the supply of cheaper housing on a much larger scale, in terms of the site-and-service scheme. A plot must be made available on which the basic services have been provided, for example water and sewerage. Schools and clinics must be built in the vicinity as well. However, Black people must be allowed to own houses there according to their own standards on a far larger scale, provided, of course, that they meet the minimum basic standards. Of course, they must not quite be squatters’ slums. But the whole system must be permitted in accordance with a basic minimum standard. Then it will be unnecessary for the Government to continue providing houses at high cost, while it will be completely impossible for the Government ever to catch up on the backlog, particularly in view of the trend towards an increasing influx to the metropolitan and industrial areas.

Before my time has expired, I want to refer briefly to certain aspects which were raised in the Natal Provincial Council last week. I want to express my surprise at the fact that a person with the status of an MEC in Natal—I am referring to Mr. C. D. Stainbank—in the provincial council … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, to a large extent I am able to associate myself with the first statements concerning principle made by the hon. member for Klip River at the outset of his speech. However, I prefer to devote my speech to local circumstances in Grahamstown.

Grahamstown’s Black people and Black towns have recently received a great deal of publicity. The names Fingo Town and Glenmore are known not only in our country, but overseas as well. However, this does not concern only Fingotown and Glenmore, for there are other problems too. For example, a large number of houses are needed and there is also a great deal of unemployment among the Black people of Grahamstown. This is understandable; in fact, it is to be expected that representations would be made with the view to lower rentals. It is necessary that something urgent be done about this matter, for in the nature of the matter, rentals cannot be reduced still further. What does not help in this situation either is to do what PFP supporters did when they tried to exploit this problem situation to their own advantage and also to overemphasize the problem to create an atmosphere and a climate which could lead to greater dissatisfaction.

That is absolute rubbish.

If I had the time, I could submit the necessary proof.

What must be done here is to seek to improve the overall economy of Grahamstown. In this respect the Government will have to play its part. Unfortunately this is not the time to elaborate on this, but I hope to be able to do so on a later occasion.

I realize that the poor financial position of Black people is not exclusive to Grahamstown, but I trust that the Government will be able to play a part by assisting in the development of the economy there. I particularly hope that the Government will be able to play a part in establishing the infrastructure there and in making more land available for Black housing, because I agree with the statements made earlier today that the private sector ought to play its part in the provision of accommodation. I believe that once the infrastructure has been created and the land made available, the public of Grahamstown will rise to the occasion, as the saying goes, and that they will play a part in providing private houses.

In the time left to me, I want to refer briefly to the Fingo situation. I want to express my appreciation for the fact that a decision was taken in principle to change the Group Area demarcation there. I believe that I did play a part in this process together with various other people, but I also realize that there are still a number of loose ends in this whole set-up which cannot be tied up before there has been proper planning. This is a fact one can accept, but then I do want to make the request that the planning be expedited.

I particularly want to take issue with those who are making so much of the possibility that owners of plots in Fingo Town may lose their right of ownership and get 99-year leasehold rights instead. Such people do not point out that 99-year leasehold may for all practical purposes be equated with the right of ownership. The hon. member for Houghton said that the Government was trying to create the impression that the right of ownership was equivalent to 99-year leasehold, but I want to point out to her that it is not only the Government which maintains this. This is, after all, an established principle in our legal set-up. As far back as 1904 Chief Justice Innes, Mr. Justice Curlewis concurring, issued a judgment which amounted to a finding that for all practical purposes, 99-year leasehold and the right of ownership could be equated. This decision was confirmed in our own Appeal Court as far back as in 1913 by Lord De Villiers—he was Chief Justice at that stage—and senior judge Mr. Justice Solomon.

So why do Whites always want freehold?

The hon. member for Houghton turned to Mr. Louis Rive as witness in her case. I can only refer to a newspaper report in the Daily Dispatch of 16 April. It appeared under the heading “Use 99-year lease, says Rive.” I want to quote briefly from the report to indicate what Mr. Rive said—

[Inaudible.]

I saw that weekend report as well. It is incomplete. One can interpret it in various ways. The report I have is complete. It is a Sapa report which appeared in the Daily Dispatch. This is a newspaper which is certainly not favourably disposed towards this Government. [Interjections.] Mr. Rive does not stand alone; I can also refer to a remark in the Rapport of 6 April 1980 in which Mr. Justice Steyn, who is the executive officer of the Urban Foundation, expresses much the same sentiments as Mr. Rive. It is quite a long report in which he supports this matter. I want to state that land and the right of ownership of land are an emotional matter, and if there are those who want to play off the right of ownership and 99-year leasehold against one other without putting leasehold in its right perspective, such people are committing an injustice and an offence against this country. There are those who are in fact acting in that way, and they are not supporters of this party.

Mr. Chairman, I shall not react to that hon. member. I hope he accepts that.

I want to deal with a matter which affects the Witwatersrand, and in particular Alexandra township. A little earlier this year I asked several questions in the House and obtained certain answers from various Ministers, namely the hon. the Minister of Cooperation and Development and the hon. the Deputy Minister of Community Development. The first question I asked, on 15 February, was how many Coloured persons had been moved from Alexandra to family housing in Klipspruit West; how many Coloured families are in Alexandra at present; how many are still to be moved; and what arrangements are going to be made for those who do not wish to move? The answer was that 50 families had been moved, 513 families remained in Alexandra, 435 families wished to stay in Alexandra and further that no provision had been made for them. I corresponded with the hon. the Minister of Community Development about this and he said to me in a letter dated 29 February—

He then went on to say that the matter was not in his hands. I then asked the hon. the Minister of Community Development where the Coloureds would be put if they were moved from Alexandra. He said—

Finally, I asked the hon. the Minister what provision was being made for Coloured families in Alexandra once the replanning of Alexandra had been completed. The answer was that the—

That is why I wish to raise this matter under this Vote. I am very grateful to the hon. the Deputy Minister of Community Development for being present.

Recent developments and the answers to these questions have given rise to a great deal of concern and uncertainty in that community. Not many people know that living in Alexandra there are some 3 000 to 4 000 people who are of Coloured origin and who have been there for over 70 years. In our part of the world, in Sandton, the situation of the Indian and Black communities has now been secured in principle, but not that of the Coloureds. 90% of these Coloured people live and work in Sandton, and 435 families would like to stay in Sandton and not be moved to Klipspruit West.

That was their personal request to me.

That is absolutely correct. I am glad to note that the hon. the Deputy Minister is aware of the problem. The school the Coloureds had in Alexandra has been removed. They are now forced to go to school some 15 to 20 km away, in the centre of town. This is causing great hardship. Transportation of children brings certain evils with it.

It is a subject which needs urgent attention. I would like to quote points 6 and 7 of a letter I received from the “Save Alexandra Party”. It is dated 29 October 1979 and reads as follows—

The message is that they would like to stay in the township in which they have grown up, preferably on the sites where they are housed at present. If that is not possible, however, then in an area immediately adjacent to that. I thought that before raising this matter I should seek the views of members of other communities. I should just like to quote a paragraph from a letter which confirmed a personal conversation I have had with Ds. Buti, the chairman of the Alexandra Liaison Committee. He says—

The leadership of the Indian community of Sandton, a community living adjacent to Alexandra, wrote the following—

That comes from the chairman of the Indian community. I took the matter further, however, and on 27th April, only a few days ago, under the auspices of the Sandton Foundation I met with the leadership of the Coloured community of Alexandra, the leadership of the Indian community of Alexandra, the Alexandra Liaison Committee, the White Sandton Town Council, headed by the mayor and the Sandton Foundation headed by its chairman. I want to report that I found there a remarkable degree of accord and goodwill and warm relationships between all the communities. That meeting authorized me—in fact asked me—to speak here today on their behalf as representing the entire community, White, Coloured, Indian and Black. They asked me to say that they accept and believe that the Coloureds are an integral part of the Sandton-Alexandra community and that everyone, White, Coloured, Indian and Black, is happy and blessed to have them remain in our community.

There are 752 school children at present without a school at Alexandra as the result of past actions. That community has intermarried into the families of Alexandra and is, in fact, an integral part of the community at the present time. There is no friction whatsoever between the races in that town. Our entire community is, in fact, unanimous on what we want. I believe this to be a remarkable achievement. Accordingly I am authorized to—and I wish to—make it known that the hon. the Minister of Cooperation and Development, and the hon. the Minister of Community Development, will very shortly, through the auspices of the Sandtown Town Council and the Sandton Foundation, be receiving an invitation from us all to visit our town and see the problems I have mentioned here. We ask those hon. Ministers please to accept that invitation. We ask them to come along and end the uncertainty which exists. We ask them to plan and consult, as they have often said they wish to do, with the people and not for them. If they were to do this, I think they would have the co-operation of all sections of the communities of Sandton and Alexandra.

I would like to deal with two other matters very quickly. Let me leave the Coloured community for a moment and deal with Alexandra proper. The planning there is going ahead well. I want to say that the Black community are delighted with the progress that is being made. Those people are grateful for what is being done. There are, however, two major problems. Sandton has a population of 66 000 people, Black and White. Alexandra has nearly as many. So Sandton has virtually the same population as Alexandra, but it has 35 times as much land as Alexandra. The total area of Alexandra is only 424 ha. After buffer zones, hospital areas and the like have been subtracted, only 237 ha are left. After subtracting areas for community facilities such as schools and parks, this leaves only 72 ha to house some 50 000 to 60 000 people. I therefore believe that Dominee Buti has a legitimate case when he asks for more land to be provided for the proper housing of those people. I would ask the hon. the Minister to give urgent attention to that problem. Secondly, it was announced by the hon. the Minister in July last year that municipal status would be granted to Alexandra. We welcome this and the people of Alexandra welcome it too. However, it means more than just granting municipal status. Municipal status brings with it responsibilities, expenditure, administration and services which have to be provided. In Alexandra there are at the present time no shops, no industries and no rates from privately owned homes. I believe the hon. the Minister should consider very seriously the creation of home ownership in Alexandra for the people who live there and also that he should investigate as a matter of urgency means of providing sources of revenue for the people of that town so that they might in fact provide the sort of services that are required. If the hon. the Minister does that, I want to say that he will have the thanks, appreciation and co-operation of every single group and person in our town.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Sandton devoted the major part of his speech to matters concerning Alexandra and I believe the hon. the Minister will most certainly discuss this matter with him. I should like to associate myself with the hon. member for Walmer and the hon. member for Klip River, because it is true that the economic structures of Southern Africa indicate that the decentralization of industries to the national States has not taken place entirely as one would have wished. There are various reasons for this, inter alia, the absence of an infrastructure within the national States themselves, the absence of sophisticated markets as well as the uncertainty about the political course of events within the national States themselves, particularly as a result of the history of Africa with regard to the nationalization of private enterprises. Because of these factors the heartland development of the national States, which is of cardinal importance, will not easily become a reality, unless the Government of the Republic of South Africa itself establishes an Iscor or a Sasol within the national States and at the same time creates the necessary infrastructure associated with such projects. The fact that such large labour intensive enterprises ought in fact to be established in national States is of cardinal importance, for the urbanization process within the national States is rapidly increasing, and this is a good thing, because it indicates that the tradition that every Black man must be a communal landowner, is no longer of decisive significance within the national States. The urbanized Black people realize that their labour potential, just as that of any other person, is a very important asset, as has in fact been demonstrated by the fact that across-the-border commuting from the Black national States is increasing. That is why development and the creation of employment opportunities within the national States must be a matter of top priority since more than a million Black people in South Africa are already unemployed.

What is significant about this unemployment figure is the fact that the largest group of Black unemployed, viz. 42,1%, falls into the 20 to 29 year category. The next group, which constitutes 19,4%, falls into the 30 to 39 year category. This able-bodied element forms 61,5% of the total Black unemployment figure. The third largest group, which constitutes 17,3%, falls into the 16 to 19 year category. Furthermore this means that the most youthful, vital and able-bodied element, viz. that between 16 and 39 years of age, constitutes the major part of the Black unemployment figure, viz. 78,8%. This is not only a labour productive age group, but also a dangerous age group. Every person in this age group who wants to work, ought to be able to work. If he does not work, he is a potential looter, revolutionary agitator and terrorist. Consequently far more attention ought to be given to the establishment of business enterprises that can be run on a family basis. That is why it is so gratifying that the hon. the Minister of Finance allocated R10 million for this purpose in the budget this year. In my humble opinion this is nevertheless completely inadequate.

A great impediment in this regard is, however, the fact that the Factories Act sets tremendously high standards for the manufacturing industry. Small enterprises with a lack of capital cannot comply with these high standards set by the Act. The Factories Act must either be drastically relaxed or radically amended, so that small business enterprises can create employment opportunities for hundreds of thousands of Black people, without the high standards set by the Factories Act necessarily being applicable to these small business enterprises. The national development corporations are playing a major part in providing employment and encouraging entrepreneurship within the Black States, as well as in curbing the direct outflow of buying power, and they too deserve special mention. The fact that the total assets of the national development corporations in the 10 non-independent national States amounted to the sum of R1 650 521 000 during March 1978—at that stage there were still ten, but now there are only seven—indicates the scope and the impact of these corporations in the sphere of the provision of employment within the national States.

The employment figure for Black people in all the business enterprises of the development corporations was 15 550 up to 31 March 1978, while the employment figure in all business enterprises established according to the agency system amounted to 24 730, as against the 59 000 of the Mining Development Corporation. Consequently the various development corporations may be regarded —and justifiably so—as the institutions with the greatest potential for creating employment within the national States and their ability to do so must be enhanced in future, and not diminished.

To be able to assess properly the importance of the co-operative effort in respect of its ability to create employment opportunities, we must examine the following statistics, viz. the fact that the economies of the national States were able annually to accommodate only 28,4% or 28 428 of the total increase in the supply of Black labour itself during the period 1972 to 1975. A further 36,8% or 36 858 people were employed in the adjacent White areas, and the remaining group, viz. 34,8% or 34 814 people, can thus be classified as the potential increase in the supply of migrant labourers for employment in White areas further away, or as potential unemployed persons in the national States themselves. It is estimated that the average increase in the economically active Black work force will be 227 990 per annum during the period 1980 to 1990. Of these approximately 118 430 per annum will come from the Black States themselves. Against this background and in the view of the fact that the average annual growth rate in the real gross domestic product amounted to only 1,2% between 1975 and 1978, and on the ground that the growth rate could possibly reach 5% this year, and also owing to the restricted ability of the Black economies to create adequate employment opportunities, it is clear and essential that the RSA itself will have to make exceptional efforts if we want to place only a small proportion of the new entrants of the Black labour force in employment. If we do not do so, we are increasing the possibility of a revolution in Southern Africa as a result of the fact that people are starving because they have no work to do.

If we take into account that the absorption capacity of the traditional agricultural areas is declining to zero, i.e. that it has already begun to reach saturation point, and that the market oriented section of the agricultural sector is relatively undeveloped, and also that the employment of Black mine workers in the national States is restricted to a few States, and that the extent of such employment depends on a fluctuating world demand for certain minerals, it is clear that we shall in future have to depend more specifically on the secondary and tertiary sectors to provide employment within the national States themselves. These two sectors, viz. the secondary and the tertiary, are the principal spheres of activity of the development corporations. Consequently we shall in future have to depend on them to an increasing extent to provide the Black peoples of the national States with employment, and consequently I want to make an appeal to the hon. the Minister to strengthen the national development corporations in future, thus enabling them to increase, and not diminish their contribution to the creation of labour. If we do this, we would be rendering a service to South Africa and its people, and we would be postponing indefinitely the possibility of revolution.

Mr. Chairman, I want to congratulate the hon. member for Parys on the competent way in which he drew the attention of this House to the importance of the development of our national States. I want to link up with him and confine myself to a few aspects of the development and the requirements of the largest national State in the Northern Transvaal, viz. Lebowa. In the nature of the matter this intimately affects the interests of voters in that part of our country as well. Every country under the sun strives for the highest possible level of development and prosperity for its inhabitants in every sphere of life, whether material, social or educational. Nor can this be begrudged this nation of the Northern Transvaal. Lebowa, with a population density of 51,3 people per sq km. has a per capita gross national income of R200. This is better than in the case of 24 other African countries if we compare this to the 48 African countries. Lebowa has a higher per capita gross national income than, for example, Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania, Zaire, Lesotho and Malawi. Consequently there is little doubt as to the viability of Lebowa, but in the same breath one must admit that there is room for improvement in several spheres where the development rate is not yet satisfactory. I should like to point out a few of these.

If we look at the surface area of Lebowa, we see that it comprises 829 954 ha, of which 93 125 ha is cultivated. This represents 11,2% of the surface area, of which the present yield is a mere R2,68 per ha per annum. If we compare this to the 617 farms which comprise the Pietersburg district— these are farms with a total surface area of 497 125 ha—the yield here is an average of R56 per ha per annum. Our agricultural sector also provides employment opportunities to 25 000 people. This includes 3 000 White farmers who live on farms, plus 7 000 Black people, and the rest are being conveyed daily or weekly to and from their homes in the Black area by their employers. Furthermore, Pietersburg alone provides employment opportunities to a further 22 000 citizens of Lebowa. In other words, the presence of the Whites in that region means that work is being provided for 44 000 inhabitants of Lebowa. The dryland maize production in the Seshego area amounts to an average of 178 kg per ha, in comparison with the 1 800 kg per ha in the Pietersburg region. So one can enumerate a large number of commodities in respect of which vastly increased agricultural production is possible with the necessary training and improved agricultural methods.

A second aspect I want to mention is teaching. The teaching and education of his child is generally a matter of deep concern to the North Sotho and he does not hesitate to make financial sacrifices for this. Today we can also say without fear of contradiction that at this stage the Christian faith and philosophy of life forms the basic point of departure of Lebowa’s education system, since it has developed along the lines of the education system of the Republic of South Africa. In spite of an estimated backlog of R45 million in the sphere of education, one must mention the tremendous progress that has been shown in this sphere. Last year the Education Department of Lebowa had to manage the administration of 6 700 teachers and more than 507 000 schoolgoing children. This means that 36% of the total population of Lebowa are receiving instruction. In 1970 only 260 000 children attended school. The number of schoolgoing children has consequently increased by 94,9% within nine years. A shortage of funds has, however, meant that the education administration has been unable to keep pace with the tremendous growth of the school population and a reasonably large backlog has arisen in respect of the provision of classrooms, furniture, books and other facilities for the pupils of Lebowa.

The lack of agricultural high schools and technical high schools is, however, a matter which I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister. This development is absolutely essential in order to develop the unexploited agricultural potential of Lebowa. The necessity of having technicians for industrial development, and the development of Lebowa’s tremendous mining potential, which includes strategic minerals such as chrome, platinum and asbestos, is a matter of urgent importance. The know-how and skill must be developed in Lebowa itself so that the potential can be developed by citizens of Lebowa for Lebowa.

Furthermore, if we examine the infrastructure of Lebowa, we note, for example, that there is an urgent need for a master water plan for Lebowa. It has been estimated that to make up the leeway in this regard, an amount of R68 million will be necessary. We can go on to examine Lebowa’s system of roads. The fact is that an in-depth study has indicated that 35% of Lebowa’s roads are sub-standard and according to estimates it will take at least R50 million to rectify this position.

There is not enough time to deal with all the development requirements of Lebowa, such as the maintenance of effective medico-social services in Lebowa and adequate employment opportunities which must be created for new entrants to the labour market within Lebowa. However, the point I want to make this afternoon is that the basic economic realities I have tried to indicate here must be taken fully into account and seen in perspective if we are still to take certain decisions in respect of consolidation during the course of this year.

In this regard I want to refer specifically to point 10 of the hon. the Prime Minister’s statement on consolidation at the beginning of last year, when he stated unequivocally—

It is thus self-evident that if what Lebowa needs is substantially more land, the available funds must be utilized in accordance with the clear guideline indicated by the hon. the Prime Minister. Then the farmers’ must be bought out without delay for a proper and reasonable price, but if the need and the improvement of the prosperity of the North Sotho people lies in the sphere of education, agriculture, infrastructure and the provision of employment, I want to ask the hon. the Minister that when he and his Cabinet have to decide finally on a proposal concerning more meaningful consolidation later this year, these real needs in respect of the economic realities of Lebowa which I have tried to point out, must not be overlooked when those decisions are being made.

Mr. Chairman, I listened with considerable interest to the speech of the hon. member for Pietersburg and while we have an ideological difference about Lebowa I want to say that I think the hon. member went to considerable trouble to enlighten the House with regard the needs of Lebowa and to commend the steps taken in the education of the people of Lebowa. Education is one of the most important aspects in so far as the Black community of South Africa is concerned.

I now want to turn my attention to the hon. the Minister. He holds in his hand the key to peace, prosperity and stability in South Africa. He is in charge of a portfolio which has the potential either to explode in South Africa’s face or to ensure lasting peace. In keeping with statements made by the hon. the Minister in this country and overseas, I believe he has the will, the ability and the capacity to carry out actions that will ensure lasting peace in South Africa.

I want to propose for his consideration a blueprint for this. I want to take Soweto as an example because it contains the largest concentration of urban Blacks in the whole of South Africa. What I am going to say about Soweto applies to all other urban Black townships in South Africa. I want to commend to the hon. the Minister the following programme which contains three sections. The first section deals with a full local authority status for Soweto with a view to instituting firstly, a comprehensive townplanning scheme; secondly, adequate housing; thirdly, a central business district with unrestricted trading rights; and fourthly, a financial subsidy with a view to ultimate financial autonomy.

I now want to come to the second category. There should be a concerted effort to improve the quality of life by providing, firstly, freehold title; secondly, electrification; thirdly, improved police protection; fourthly, adequate school education which will be free and compulsory for all; fifthly, adequate transport within Soweto and improved rapid rail services to and from Soweto; sixthly, adequate recreation facilities; seventhly, sufficient telephones and eighthly, adequate hospital and medical facilities.

I now want to come to the third category of my proposed blueprint, which should be a revision of the laws with a view to removing discrimination in general and specifically. Discrimination can be removed specifically by ensuring, firstly, the right to trade and practise professions anywhere; secondly, that there will be a review of section 10 to provide free movement and to remove the 72-hour restriction in prescribed areas; thirdly, that there will be no prosecution for non-payment of rent; fourthly, that citizenship to urban Blacks will be restored in terms of section 12(1) of the Black Laws Amendment Act No. 12 of 1978 and, fifthly, that section 29, which provides that Blacks who have not been lawfully employed for 122 days in a period of 12 months shall be regarded as idle Blacks, will be repealed. Section 31, to which the hon. member for Houghton has referred, and the pass laws should also be repealed and families be permitted to live together.

Discrimination can be removed generally by the removal of the Mixed Marriages Act, section 16 of the Immorality Act, the Group Areas Act and the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act.

I also want to make several special requests to the hon. the Minister. Firstly, he must assist the local authorities of Soweto financially to obviate the proposed rapid rise in rentals which the people cannot afford. Secondly, Mr. Louis Rive must be given every assistance the Government can give him to support him in his programmes. Thirdly, the pensions paid to Blacks must be reconsidered with a view to making them more adequate and meaningful. The ratio between Black and White pensions of 1:4 must also be eliminated. Fourthly the sale of liquor as a source of revenue for Black local authorities must be prohibited. I also want to make a special appeal to the hon. the Minister to review the application, by the family of the late Dr. Melville Edelstein, for an ex gratia payment as compensation for the death of a man, a sociologist, who devoted his life to the Black people and who was stoned to death during the riots of 1976. I have not been briefed by the family and have received no mandate from them to speak on their behalf, but I must say that in the newspapers I read with amazement, and a certain amount of sadness, that their appeals for an ex gratia payment had been turned down. This man was known to me when I was a member of the Johannesburg City Council and helped to administer Soweto. From time to time he submitted papers to us. In 1971 he received his Masters Degree for his thesis: “What do Young Africans think?” On his tombstone the following extract from Jeremiah is inscribed: “And seek the peace of the city, for in the peace thereof shall you find peace.”

It is this city, Soweto, to which I now want to turn my attention. I want to say to the hon. the Minister that Soweto should now be regarded as a city which is being guided towards having a local urban council in the same as any other local authority on the Reef or in South Africa. It should be a community council that is given teeth. The city should have a proper town-planning scheme which would make provision for an industrial area, a residential area and a commercial area with a CBD in which businesses can be developed for the benefit and the use of the Black people themselves. I think that if we are going to allow White entrepreneurs to move into the central business district or any part of Soweto, they should only be allowed to do so on condition that the Blacks in turn are entitled to move into the White cities to trade. I do not think we can any longer countenance a situation in which Black doctors and Black attorneys cannot practise in White cities and are confined to the townships in which they live. They are entitled to practise their professions anywhere, and I think it is time that we brought this about. They should be able to practise anywhere.

I want to say that as far as White local authorities are concerned, discussion is taking place with regard to a new form of local government. I think the UME, the United Municipal Executive, has made representations that there should be two tiers of government as far as local authorities are concerned. They say that there should be a metropolitan regional body which will function as an umbrella organization over the small local authorities. Those who are responsible for sewerage and transport services, cemeteries and roads of a regional nature within the metropolitan confines can benefit from this. Soweto, like Roodepoort or Germiston or Edenvale or Johannesburg, should fit into a metropolitan complex. It should be regarded as a regional authority, just as other local authorities, an authority the members of which should be properly trained to carry out their administrative functions. Its representatives should also be properly elected and should also be represented on the municipal associations so that they can enjoy the status of proper local authorities.

The hon. member for Houghton referred to the 99-year leasehold scheme. According to figures given here in the House 100 have already been registered, while there are still 95 pending. I should urge the hon. the Minister to consider appointing a commission to investigate the possibility of expediting the conversion of the 99-year leasehold scheme into freehold titles, as advocated by Mr. Louis Rive. I know there are certain difficulties. I have certain figures here, which, I hope, are correct. Reference is made here to a survey fee of R300, as well as R300 for the rights of the leasehold, an annual fee of R1, for 99 years, and R1 523 in respect of infrastructure. How on earth are people going to be able to obtain a 99-year leasehold under these conditions, bearing in mind the amounts they earn today? The only safeguard they can have, I believe, is to give them a feeling of belonging.

I want to tell hon. members of an incident that I shall never forget. A man came into my office and told me he lived in Alexandra township and that they wanted to expropriate his property. He asked me: “Why do they want to take my land away from me? This is my title deed. It is my land. It belongs to me”. Only then did I realize what a title deed meant to an individual. It is his security for the future. It is something he owns, something that nobody can take away from him. Therefore I believe it is important that freehold titles be given to these people as soon as possible.

Furthermore, I should like to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to the high rentals in Soweto. Soweto cannot be a viable enterprise on its own financial resources. It has no income derived from rates and taxes. It is clear, of course, that no local authority can exist unless it is viable. Therefore it must be financed by the central Government or by the provincial administration, depending on the circumstances, until such time as it becomes viable. This talk of high rentals, of practically doubling the rents of people who cannot possibly afford it, who cannot even make ends meet—the imposition of higher rentals in an attempt to make an urban council function—is completely beyond their scope. Therefore the Government must take steps. This is a serious matter. All the leaders in Soweto have warned us that if people are compelled to pay rents that are beyond their means it will lead to unrest and create all sorts of problems which we should try to avoid at all costs. We cannot afford to create situations which will lead to confrontation. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Hillbrow has dealt with the Black man in White areas. I should like to deal with the development of one of our younger Black States.

*I am referring to the self-governing Black State of Kangwane, formerly known as the Swazi homeland. This Black State lies in the Eastern Transvaal and borders on Swaziland and Mozambique. At present, this Black State is one of our underdeveloped areas.

However, that Black State is also receiving very great attention, especially from the hon. the Minister, who visited it last Friday to open the Legislative Assembly. According to information which I got from people who attended the proceedings there, it was a very fine occasion.

In a variety of spheres, Kangwane still suffers great disadvantages. For example, the State still has a very small economic basis. To a very large extent its agricultural potential remains undeveloped. Job opportunities are limited in that territory, and the State has a poor physical infrastructure at the moment. Nevertheless, there are many bright spots which augur well for the future of that country. Good progress is being made with the country’s political development, for example, and under the guidance of the Commissioner-General of the South African Government, the Black Govern ment and its officials are getting more and more knowledgeable and expert in carrying out government and administrative functions.

A very important milestone in the history of the development of that territory was the establishment of the country’s own development corporation, the Kangwane Development Corporation, or KDC for short. The board of directors of this corporation has a very great task in stimulating and planning the development of that Black State. I believe that the prerequisite for the development of a new country such as Kangwane is the introduction of a programme of soil planning and conservation. A large measure of success has already been achieved with this.

This basic planning is indispensable for orderly development, since the available land surface of that country has to be delimited and divided up to ensure its optimum utilization. Under such a programme, the land suitable for agricultural development is identified, while the rest is used for forestry, urban settlement and other purposes. Kangwane is faced with one great challenge in particular, namely the establishment of a well-planned agricultural industry. This is because statistics show that of the total number of economically active inhabitants of the country, almost 65% are in the agricultural sector. For this reason, two programme objectives are necessary to promote this matter. In the first place, attention must be given to the physical aspects, such as developing existing and establishing new big agricultural projects, building dams for irrigation farming, undertaking soil conservation work and providing a transport infrastructure to convey the products that are produced to the markets or processing plants. Kangwane already has many splendid projects. I am referring to the sisal project, a very fine sugar cane project, as well as valuable plantations in the Umphuluzi forestry district, which used to be a part of my constituency. In spite of this, food production remains priority No. 1, and the cultivation of vegetables and other fresh produce in particular holds very great possibilities.

In the second place—apart from the physical aspect—a training and information programme for Black inhabitants of that State who want to enter the farming industry is essential. It is essential that the Black farmers who want to enter the farming industry should in the first place be trained as quickly as possible, and that those who are already involved in agriculture should be informed about modern farming techniques in the best possible way. The dangers of wasteful exploitation and over-grazing should be brought home to these people and the Black farmer should be converted to a new approach. He should move out of the confines of subsistence farming, and should be motivated by the realization that it is not only in the interests of his country and his fellow-citizens that he should produce more food than he and his family need, but that it is in his own interest as well. Probably the greatest obstacle to the development of a more productive agricultural system in that territory—and I suppose in other Black States as well—is the Swazi’s traditional view of land allocation.

Hear, hear! That is right.

At the moment, as in the past, land for agricultural purposes is allocated to tribal authorities, and the chief in his turn distributes the allocated land among his subjects and followers on a communal basis. So a farmer who wants to get his farming operations going in such a tribal area can never really become the owner of the land on which he farms. His right of possession remains subject to that of his chief. Obviously, this system has a counter-productive effect on the agriculture of that country, for no farmer is going to make capital improvements on a farm if he does not have the security of title or ownership rights. Nor is he likely to spend a great deal of money on improving the soil on that farm. Because he does not own the land, his ability to obtain loan capital for expanding his farming operations, for buying implements or for establishing irrigation schemes is also seriously restricted. For this reason, capital formation in the agricultural sector of the Black States is very slow.

I have discussed this matter with members of the Kangwane Government. They fully appreciate the fact that the communal system of land ownership is a major obstacle to farming development. However, it is difficult —and they say this quite frankly—to break down the traditions of generations as far as this subject is concerned. A continuous information service would help, but ultimately I believe that a little force on the part of the Kangwane Government itself will be the only way of achieving positive results. Only in this way will it be possible to put individual initiative to better use and will the country be able to become independent as far as its supply of food is concerned. Only in this way can jobs be created for a rapidly growing labour force. This is also the only way of creating an internal market and secondary agricultural activities. Only in this way will the country be able to achieve the ultimate ideal of complete independence.

Mr. Chairman, for some years the debates in this House have been dominated by the theme of the relations between Whites and people of colour, especially the relations between Whites and Blacks. Under this Vote of the hon. Minister of Co-operation and Development we are indeed concerned with the relations between Whites and Blacks. Because we live in a time when active steps will have to be taken to create a favourable climate in the Republic so that all the people of this country can live together in peace, one resents having to listen to the speeches made by hon. members of the Opposition. Instead of seeking to co-operate with the Government, we find them continually making pleas which can only creates dangerous expectations on the part of people of colour. I think those hon. members are totally blind to the reality we are faced with. By creating expectations among people which cannot be realized, a situation which is dangerous for the survival of the separate peoples in this country, we are creating White-Black polarization. I am referring to the way in which they talk about the school boycotts, the way in which they warn the Government about their effect and the way in which the PFP is warning against the so-called polarization and is telling us what will happen if demands are not met. The hon. members of the PFP rise one after another with one plea after another for a unitary State. The overtone of their speeches is one of colour and people of colour, with an undenyable emphasis on “one man, one vote”. They are disregarding reality. They are creating expectations among people which they know very well cannot be realized. This is why certain Black leaders are adopting attitudes which are dangerous for the survival of White and Black in South Africa. However, when things go wrong in South Africa, they will suffer just as much as we. I am convinced that they will be the first ones to run. The policy of those hon. members, which is nothing but integration, is just as dangerous as the policy of the HNP at the other end of the spectrum, a policy which amounts to hatred.

Leave the HNP alone.

Those policies both have the same objective. Therefore I want to ask those hon. members to stop complicating the task of the Government in a very difficult period. It will get us nowhere if we win the war on the border with the aid of the S.A. Defence Force, which is very strong, and the lives of our boys, only to lose the struggle inside South Africa. We have undoubtedly arrived at a stage where we are faced with the great responsibility of finding a dispensation and creating structures which will afford every person the opportunity of living a life of equality and human dignity. Certainly we shall have to abolish certain discriminatory practices, but those who deny the existence of multinationalism—to begin with that—and who thereby wish to imply that all discrimination has to disappear, have no understanding of reality and are aiding a process of destruction in South Africa. The National Party has never said that the White person is a better human being than any other, but by recognizing the diversity and distinctive characters of various groups, the National Party is building good relations and creating a future for all the people in South Africa. That is why one of the cornerstones of the National Party’s policy is the recognition of the existence of the various peoples. That is also why we are seeking the answer in the separate development of the various population groups.

This primary objective of separateness was enunciated at an early stage by the White leaders. Therefore it is not an innovation of the National Party. As far back as 1911, for example, the late Gen. J. B. M. Hertzog said in what direction satisfactory solutions should be sought to the complex problems of a heterogeneous White and Black population in South Africa—

In 1912 he said at De Wildt—

During the discussion of the Native Land Bill in 1913, the then Minister of Native Affairs, Mr. J. W. Sauer, put it as follows—

During the same session, Mr. H. W. Sampson said—

In 1917 Gen. J. C. Smuts said in London as a member of the then Imperial War Cabinet, in a speech on “The White man’s Task”—

This ideal of separate development has therefore been formulated over a long period by various persons and governments to bring about segragation and development in such a way as to satisfy in a meaningful way both the White people and the various Black peoples among themselves.

In 1956, it was said in a White Paper—

On the basis of this underlying need, Dr. Verwoerd was able to declare in London in 1960—

In this way, over several decades, this primary objective has been stated as the ideal in South Africa. It may be accepted, therefore, that the economic planning of the homelands has to be worked out on this basis, in spite of certain aspects to which practical solutions are not yet foreseen.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Middelburg is quite right in saying that we must not arouse any expectations, among the Black people in particular, which cannot be realized, and also that promises should not be made which cannot be implemented. No one knows that better than I do myself. I am a man who likes to keep my word under all circumstances. What is essential is that targets are set. If targets are not set, little can be achieved. One thing that is happening in this country is that when targets are set by this side of the House with the best intentions in the world and in an honest and sincere way, targets which are very difficult to achieve— any worthwhile target will be difficult to achieve—they are described, in order to gain political advantage, as promises or as expectations that are being aroused. We must get away from that, because that creates difficulties that outweigh any positive contribution in an effort to achieve our targets in the interests of all the people in the Republic of South Africa. I therefore wish to sound a warning note in a very friendly way about this trend which has taken root in South Africa recently, viz. that of describing every honest target as a promise or an expectation that is being created and that it will not be possible to give effect to.

I want to reply to the debate today from a certain angle, and then tomorrow react further to certain other aspects which are also very important. On this occasion I should like to begin by conveying my sincere thanks to the senior officials, the officials, the Secretary and everyone in my department for a year of exceptionally outstanding and good-quality work which they have done. Without our officials, nothing can really be achieved. That we must not forget. Officials are in a contact situation. They are often subjected to severe criticism and often work in extremely difficult circumstances, and let us not forget that. On this occasion, therefore, I wish to convey a message of praise and gratitude to our officials in my department—one and all—for the dedicated work they are doing, particularly the Secretary and the men under him. I am very grateful that the Commissioner-General of all the national States are present here this afternoon and will be present tomorrow as well. We conducted important discussions yesterday and it was specially arranged that they would also be able to hear what hon. members have to say about this matter. We are very grateful that they are present.

Permit me, too, to convey my congratulations on this occasion to our new Commissioner-General, Senator Jordaan, and to convey a message of thanks and appreciation to the retiring Commissioner-General, Mr. Potgieter, an exceptionally capable man, for the dedicated service he has rendered over a long period, in the interests of Black people and also in the interests of all the people of the Republic of South Africa. Then, too, I wish to convey a special message of thanks to my parliamentary group on Co-operation and Development for their loyalty and also for the way in which this debate has been conducted. I was struck by the positive spirit in which this debate was conducted, and therefore I wish to express my thanks to all who have taken part in this debate so far. It has been conducted at a high level. I could not help recalling the extremely heated debates on this matter which have taken place in my time. When I think of that I am deeply grateful for the high level of the debate today and also for the calm atmosphere in which it has been conducted. This bodes well for the future.

Someone once said—I think it was perhaps Dr. Rupert—that things are never as good as they look, nor as bad as they appear to be. I think we should never forget that. While I was listening to hon. members this afternoon, I wished I had a magic wand with which to solve all the problems connected with this vast department and the people whose interests it has to promote.

I think it is necessary that we should look at a few basic things just to put this highly important matter we are dealing with in perspective. In the first place, I want to point out to hon. members that this is a department which deals with 16 million people and more, with all the facets of their lives. There are the annual reports, for example that of the department itself, those of the Economic Development Corporations, the Mining Corporation, the National State Corporations, etc., and the departmental annual reports of each national State, the Administration Boards, publications of the Bureau for Economic Research and others, that report on all the various activities in some detail. A wealth of information, statistics and data appear therein. I certainly cannot elaborate on that now. There have been speakers both on this side of the House and in the ranks of the Opposition who have drawn attention to this and have advanced very important facts. I am very grateful to them for doing so. I should like to abstract a few implicit characteristics, outstanding characteristics, of the kind of progress made under this ministry and, today and tomorrow, sketch a clear picture in this regard for hon. members. I ask the indulgence of hon. members for the fact that I am now discussing something I have often spoken about before. I speak with a certain amount of experience, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that when everything is said and done, this must be our foundation in this country, that goes not only for me, but for everyone in this country, as far as possible; otherwise we shall not be able to solve our relations problems. This underlies the whole process of development. If hon. members have looked at the reports, the data, the statistics and the information, then the undertone is one of a good attitude. It is not directly described as such, but it is nevertheless clearly apparent in every page.

It is important to note that the achievements in this department over the past year are the result of a team effort—and I am really grateful and proud to be able to say this—between White and Black, out of which a strong and unequalled sense of comradeship has already grown. This is being overlooked. This team effort of Black and White, and the success it has achieved in this country, is being overlooked. If the fact is taken into account that the self-governing national States have already taken over the executive functions of agriculture, justice, education, finance, public works, health, economic affairs, police, and all the attendant responsibilities of Government, and that my department only provides advice on demand, this shows the value of sound attitudes. When I began in this department, there was no question of these things, but in my lifetime I have seen how they have grown from nothing to where they are at present. I am deeply grateful for this, and I know that when I say that I am optimistic about the future, under the guidance of the Almighty, I am not only speaking from my heart, but I am also basing what I say on an intellectual analysis of what has been done about these things in this department over a period of more than a quarter of a century. The same can be said in general about attitudes in respect of Development Corporations, Administration Boards and Community Councils. The Administration Boards and Development Corporations have been the focus of attention a great deal. There is a major change in this regard. Let us say it, and let us be grateful for it. It would be irresponsible to underestimate these achievements as regards the creation of sound attitudes, when in fact they may be regarded as an important cornerstone on which further development in South and Southern Africa, particularly the confederal and constellation concepts, can be built. The development and exploitation of resources and other potential in any heterogeneous, cosmopolitan structure such as the one we have here in South Africa, is virtually unthinkable unless it is done on the basis of the best of attitudes. We must not overlook this. It is in this very sphere that the strongest counter to communist imperialism and communism is to be found. To the extent that we succeed in this simple matter, we shall effectively bundle Russian imperialists out of our fatherland, and it is to that extent that we shall be successful. Therefore it can rightly be said that human relations, race relations and national relations, as well as relations among the various economic classes involved here—and I would not say this if I did not believe it—have never been better at any stage in the history of South Africa than they are now.

If there is evidence of progress, let us help it along, let us say this to one another and let us learn that lesson once again from this debate. In addition, the eight governments in South Africa have never, in my humble opinion, been in a more favourable position than they are now and they have seldom had more effective instruments of government at their disposal than they have at this very juncture with which to give final effect in an orderly way to the full implementation of this process of peaceful co-existence. That is the principal conclusion to be drawn if the course of development and national structures are analysed properly and in depth on the basis of the reports tabled in this House. It is for that very reason that the further promotion of sound and healthy attitudes among people across national borders must be the personal responsibility of every right-thinking individual in South Africa, irrespective of his national, cultural or economic links. I think it is time that we in this country should realize and take note of the fact that responsible governments in South Africa, both White and Black, do not strive to achieve Utopia. We are not striving to achieve Utopia but to achieve the qualities of meaningful life, order and self-determination based on, and appropriate to, the abilities with which everyone in South Africa has been blessed. That is the lesson of Africa and it is also the lesson of South Africa. We do not all have the ability; all the people of the various nations in South Africa do not have the same abilities. Therefore we must strive to achieve the qualities of meaningful life, order and self-determination based on and appropriate to the abilities with which everyone in South Africa has been endowed. Accordingly it would also be wrong to overtax the personal abilities of the one for the sake of the unrealistic Utopian dreams of some people. Often when one has to do with such a Utopian dream, one can see that it is aimed at the exploitation of the weak in the circumstances of the South African set-up.

On one occasion last year I referred very forcefully to the importance of three important instruments in South Africa: geographic ordering, constitutional development and the financing instrument. I do not wish to discuss that again, but when I look at geographic ordering—which is also known as consolidation—and I look at the attitude among White and Black people and I realize the tremendous problems we are dealing with, I say that I am very optimistic, because we are engaged in tackling one of the most difficult problems imaginable by way of an expert committee and other experts assisting it, and we are doing so in such a way, and are investigating it with such urgency, that we are going to come up with answers which will be truly meaningful and important for all the population groups in the Republic of South Africa.

With regard to the financing instrument which, over the past year, on a direct budgeting basis, has involved an amount— listen to the enormous sum I am going to mention—of more than R1,8 milliard, it is necessary to single out the following briefly to further illustrate of the high level of good attitudes that has already been achieved. In the first place: With the aid and support of well-disposed White officials and the purposeful training and motivation of their own officials, the Nationalist Government has already succeeded in achieving orderly government, planning and development in the national states by means of their own national budgets. I do not say it is perfect, but the facts I have just sketched are indisputably true. Hon. members can look at any of these matters.

Secondly, the successful implementation of economic, financial and other development principles in their own communities, which also make up their electorate, can be seen in the real growth rate of the gross national product of each of these Black nations, and in the increase in revenue from their own resources which has increased by 34% over the past year, while the budget itself has only increased by approximately 11%. Surely that is a very large percentage, if I am able to come to this House today and say that the revenue of the national states and the contribution from their own resources has increased by an average of 34%, while their budget has only increased by approximately 11%.

Thirdly, I want to say that the willingness and the desire on the part of virtually every government to administer development aid on a systematic project basis, exactly as the World Bank does it, attests to an attitude of systematized co-operation. If that is not progress, then show me what progress is. Fourthly, there is the high degree of success already achieved with joint planning in various spheres among governments, corporations, adjoining authorities and the private sector, and between White and Black. I should be able to take up much of the time of the House by referring to specific examples. I shall refer to specific examples when I reply in due course to specific questions, examples of how my department and I, together with these national States, have tackled and carried out major projects with resounding success. For example, we have tackled water projects like the Olifants River project and have carried them through. The problems are there, the challenges are tremendous and the leeway to be made up is vast, but very good progress is being made and this is truly cause for gratitude.

Tomorrow I shall say something more about the handling of the constitutional instrument, about further constitutional development and about the accommodation of Black and White political aspirations. At this point, suffice it to say that this has been given a great deal of attention at this stage. We expect the recommendations of the Schlebusch Commission at any moment. In what country in the world is a constitutional dispensation such a focus of attention as in this fatherland of ours? Every day I ask people from abroad to show me one example, and to date no one has been able to do so. Let the British and the Americans abolish their Senate, and then see what happens. All hell will break loose! But for the sake of peaceful co-existence, for the sake of the political accommodation of all the people in this country on the basis of self-determination and safeguarding of minority groups and for the sake of the meaningful solution of the real problems of Africa— objectives in the achievement of which we leave no stone unturned and are even prepared to do the impossible—we in this country are even prepared to consider abolishing our Senate. South Africa, with its diverse race groups and economic dualism, is often spoken of as a microcosm of the world. In many respects this is true, particularly as regards the diversity of races, peoples, cultures, levels of prosperity and, underlying that, systems, norms, value judgments and political ambitions. Against this background South Africa is indeed a microcosm of the world. This heterogeneity in South Africa makes heavy demands with regard to a meaningful structuring within geographic confines. I wish I could quote to hon. members from an article written shortly before his death by Arnold Toynbee, one of the world’s greatest historians, about South Africa’s situation. It is one of the best articles on this subject I have ever read. But, Sir, I cannot disgress now. When one draws a comparison between South Africa and the rest of the world, one sees that the difference lies, inter alia, in the fact that while it is far more difficult to unite the diversity in the world into harmonious unity and cooperation, with the result that is more often in conflict, the diversity in this country has already to a large extent been developed into an energetic bulwark of stability and unified strength. The need for peaceful co-existence and good neighbourliness, with the retention of the right to self-determination and economic partnership, plays a central role in this regard. Heavy demands are being made on the best qualities of man himself.

Let us speak candidly to one another today. After all, there are people who are talking about initiatives which have allegedly become bogged down suddenly in a “wait a minute” approach, and things like that. When what we are concerned with in South Africa is the quality of a person, surely it makes no difference whether it is a White person, a Black person, a Coloured person or what kind of person he is. If a person has the quality, surely he can rise to the very top. Surely this has been made possible for people in our fatherland during the past 25 years or more.

South Africa, this so-called microcosm of the world, consists of a diversity of cultures, religions, social orders, political aspirations, political differences, differences in individual ability, and consequently differences in prosperity, and is under tremendous pressure from Russian imperialism and also from the West—in fact from the whole wide world. This is also a situation which has no equal elsewhere in the world. But what is it leading to? It is leading to one of the strongest unifying factors between Whites and Blacks in South Africa, with the retention of the ethnic identity of each, with the retention of self-determination, and particularly with the retention of a sovereign Government and a sovereign Parliament.

When we consider all these things I think it is fitting, particularly when I am reporting on this Ministery, that it can be claimed in all earnest that the tone which is being set and the guidance which is being given in the creation and development of ever-improving relations ought to be supported by all responsible people in South Africa. I would even say that few of these achievements on the constitutional as well as on the economic level, could have been achieved in a climate of relations which was less favourable than that which is prevailing at present. That is why I am pointing this out again. I make no apology for constantly harping on this theme. In my life I have seen the value of real, honest, sound relations between people and between nations. It originates among individuals. There is no greater truth than this. It may be simple, but it is absolutely correct.

If this is the foundation on which we stand, what systems are involved here? The free-enterprise economic system is in full sway in South Africa. This applies to all people, Whites, Coloureds and Blacks.

What about the pass laws?

I shall discuss them tomorrow. I am now discussing the foundations on which we stand. If the hon. member for Houghton, after 30 years in this House, still does not understand the first thing about them, I do not know whether she will ever understand them. I shall reply later today, and tomorrow as well, to each of her questions. I am now clarifying the foundations on which we stand to those who still have ears to hear and—if I may say this—are still able to grasp the things which are really significant and meaningful in the problem situation which we have to contend with here in the Republic of South Africa.

Pass laws and the free enterprise system just do not tie up.

In our free-market economy it is a very sound approach that the emphasize should be placed on a minimum of Governmental and a maximum of private participation. No one illustrated this more clearly than the hon. the Prime Minister in his talks on 22 November of last year. One important truth tacitly emerges here. It is that the refinement of the free-market system at present gives satisfaction to only a certain percentage of the peoples who are involved in it. This is true. Popularly speaking, very facile reference is sometimes made to the modern sector on the one hand and the so-called traditional sector on the other, with which the matter is then frequently dismissed. If we were also to dismiss it in the same way as those who look at this kind of matter in a superficial way, surely the achievements which we are able to discuss here this afternoon would not have been possible. But we do not dismiss it so easily. What are the facts?

There is a complementary relationship between the so-called traditional and the modern sectors in the development processes with which we are involved in the development of the national States and their relevant communities. Government intervention, and particularly assistance by private enterprise, is of the utmost importance. That is why I am once again making an appeal here this afternoon to the private sector to help with the development of these national States, for example in regard to agriculture, the establishment of small industries, and in every possible sphere. We are dependent on them, particularly in South Africa. But this does not mean that the one excludes the other. It means in fact that these two sectors are strongly complementary in the process of development. That is why it is of the utmost importance that the achievement of this Ministry, specifically during the past year, should be assessed in the light of the fact that this informal sector in South Africa, generally speaking, has up to now received little if any systematic attention. Is this not perhaps one of the mistakes which are being made?

That is why I am so grateful that hon. members rose here this afternoon one after another to speak on the development of those national Black States which border on their constituencies. This informal sector is extremely important in the framework we are dealing with in South Africa. It must be realized that the theoretical distinction between the so-called growth models on the one hand, and development on the other, which are complementary in any case, truly finds practical expression in the South African reality. By definition, development in all its dimensions is a time-consuming and slow process which must not and cannot take place in a way which is too sophisticated, but particularly in a way that is too forced. Although the human being is probably the most adaptable creature, and although the South African community has pre-eminently demonstrated that theirs is a supple and a high degree of adaptability, the adaptability of people cannot be forced into a strait jacket of time which makes greater demands than those which human ability are able to meet—that is the lesson of our position in Africa—particularly not if there is a desire to do so for the sake of the retention of stereotyped, familiar and perhaps obsolete practices and systems, and traditional and institutionalized class structures and short-term political accommodation. If that is our approach, we shall not be able to solve our problems in this country. The accent which this Ministry places on the need for this kind of development is therefore very important. Hon. members must be patient with me for just a while longer. I am almost finished with this aspect.

I find myself in very good company when I say these things about these matters. I have no other opportunity to discuss these matters than under my Vote. I want to quote Arthur Hazelwood, a world-renowned expert on development—

It is necessary to guard earnestly against the principles of self-sufficiency, the rules of family and community which are based on other criteria and which people wish to apply according to other value judgments, being distorted to such an extent by attempts at forced implementation of free-market economic principles that this causes essential safeguards of human existence for the communities concerned to disappear completely. That is the policy of this side of the House. The officials know that if we do not do it in this way, there will be conflict and problems. Even if one would very much like to do certain things as quickly as possible, or as quickly as it is possible to do them in America or other sophisticated countries, it is simply not possible in this country. A person who does not understand this, understands absolutely nothing of the entire problem situation with which we have to contend. This is what we get from some members opposite who make wild speeches here in terms of certain criteria and standards and who remonstrate with us on certain demands and needs. We know and understand what the needs are. But to find a meaningful answer to these demands and needs and to solve the problems so that there can be peaceful co-existence in South Africa, is the real problem. That is why I praise the officials and the commissioners-general, who in their contact situation, understand something of this problem. It would be a bad day for South Africa if the motive for participating in new processes and for achievement is handicapped to a great extent by our placing too much pressure on people and forcing them into a strait jacket merely for the sake of development. Again I find myself in good company here. I am quoting the Director-General of the International Labour Organization—

Such is the danger that unnecessary and too much emphasise can be placed on economic growth alone and on the creation of employment opportunities by sophisticated methods in the so-called formal sector that no less a person than McNamara, the President of the International Development Bank, described it as follows—

I shall also quote what was said by I. A. Black, a world-renowned expert in this sphere—

Please listen carefully now—

Put in your application, Piet!

Let us now analyse the position in South Africa against this background. Understanding for the problem situation which we have to contend with in South Africa is manifested in the policy of this side of the House, and I am referring specifically to the Government’s 12-point plan, to the principle of self-determination. The prosperity gap in the world is becoming ever wider. The rich countries are becoming richer and the poor countries poorer. Precisely the opposite is happening in South Africa, however, which is a microcosm of the world, and we are only at the beginning of the development and the implementation of a development strategy which is clearly aimed not only at the elimination of hurtful and obstructive discrimination on the ground of colour, but also at the gradual redistribution of prosperity and the optimum narrowing of the income gap. What more can I hold up, as a symbol of success, than the fact that while the prosperity gap in the rest of the world is widening, South Africa is a shining example of a country where precisely the opposite is happening, in a microcosm of the world? Here the prosperity gap is shrinking and surely that is a tremendous achievement.

I wish to emphasize another fact in this regard. Projections indicate that the average development of most African countries is showing a dangerous downward tendency in respect of the most important dimensions of development, namely food production, employment, housing and the development of infrastructures. The indications are that approximately 60 million people will be unemployed by end of this century. Hon. members are welcome to go and look it up. I took the trouble to examine the projections, and my people helped me. The projections indicate that 60 million people will be unemployed in Africa by the end of this century, in these important dimension of development, namely food production, employment, housing and the development of infrastructures. Projections for South Africa, however, indicate precisely the opposite result for the various national States and their communities. That is why I find it very difficult to understand precisely what the Opposition parties wish to achieve in this Parliament. What more do they want in respect of the benefiting and development of the various Black peoples in South Africa? This Government is thoroughly aware of the need for political progress for the various national groups, something which I should like to say more about it tomorrow, when I review welfare aspects.

In our policy priority number is the development of the national States. That is why I do not wish to allow myself to be led astray by the hon. member for Houghton, who, confound it all, came here this afternoon and spoke about Soweto. It was imperative that I speak about the foundation on which we are standing and that I indicate certain wonderful results. I am not saying that there are no problems. In fact, there are a tremendous amount of problems, but there are also, as I have indicated, wonderful results and much reason to be grateful. If only we can carry on in this way! If those hon. members would co-operate when it comes to these basic things, we shall have progressed a great deal further along this successful road next year, compared to where we stand this afternoon.

†I should now like to turn to the hon. member for Houghton and the question of Soweto. Against this background I think it is right to place the spotlight on this city in particular so that I can inform hon. members of the substantial progress that has been made there. I want to re-emphasize what hon. members on this side of the House have emphasized, namely that when I speak of Soweto, I do so because certain pertinent questions have been put to me, and that it must be clearly understood that Soweto is not the only Black urban township in the Republic of South Africa. When we therefore cater for Soweto, we cater in similar fashion, as far as is humanly possible, for all the other Black urban townships in our country.

I said so.

Excepting the Western Cape.

I want to refer to the appointment of Mr. Rive to the very important position he now holds, and also to the appointment of Mr. Knoetze, the former chairman of the Administration Board. Mr. Rive is chairman of the Planning Council for Soweto.

*I think hon. members will readily agree with me that no better person could be found for this position in South Africa than Mr. Rive. I wish to pay great tribute to him and also convey thanks to him for the brilliant way in which he is dealing with this particular matter. Of Mr. John Knoetze I wish to say that he is a man with very mature experience and that he is producing wonderful results in Soweto. We are greatly indebted to him as well. In this I include all the people who are assisting these two gentlemen.

Good progress is being made, and I should like to furnish a few examples of this. First of all I should like to refer to housing. In this regard there are specific figures. The hon. member for Houghton waxed so eloquent this afternoon about housing. As the hon. the Deputy Minister of Co-operation said, we realize the problem in connection with housing. The hon. member for Port Natal pointed out that by the year 2000 we shall have to provide 4,1 million houses for Black people in this country in order to solve the housing problem. Consequently we understand all these things. But why do hon. members opposite not help us to solve these problems for a change. Hon. members all agree that the State cannot tackle this problem alone.

It is easy. Eliminate apartheid measures completely.

Everyone must cooperate to solve this problem. I wish to furnish certain figures. I do not like doing this, because one should not draw such comparisons. Yet I will probably be pardoned if I furnish hon. members with certain comparative figures only. In the year 1976-’77 the State spent R12,3 million on housing for Black people. Do you know, Sir, what we spent last year, the first year in which I occupied this position? We spent R48,8 million, four times as much as two years ago. What do people expect from us? Let me give another figure. For Whites we spent R42,2 million in 1976-’77 million. What more than that can hon. members possibly expect. We are already drawing upon ourselves the accusation that we are doing too much for the Black people and too little for the Whites. Do hon. members think we should turn a deaf ear to these accusations? Surely everyone has a co-responsibility in this country, as I have indicated. If one deprives the Black man of it, one is depriving him of something to which he attaches the greatest value, viz. the ability to help himself. Surely we know what this means: One should not give a person a fish, but teach him how to catch fish. That is the way in which one must proceed. It is easy for hon. members to talk about this matter, but they must, for a change, not only see the problems, but also tell us how it is possible to solve this problem in a really effective way.

Let me indicate what we are doing in this connection.

Does this refer to the urban Blacks or …

I am talking now about Soweto.

Just Soweto?

Yes, just Soweto.

R48 million?

No. The R48 million was not only for Soweto. That was the amount spent by this Government.

I’ll say it was not. That was for the Black States.

For resettlement.

I want to refer to Soweto. As I have said, good progress is being made, and I should like to give a few examples. As regards housing, a beginning has already been made on the housing scheme in Pimville 7, where 700 houses of better quality will be built in co-operation with financial institutions. This is a housing scheme which has been approved by the Soweto Community Council. The Community Council will make block allocations to various building societies, as well as to other private bodies which may be interested in financing housing on an economic basis. This is an outstanding opportunity for the utilization of the leasehold system. In Pimville 5 a beginning has already been made with 230 houses, also of a better quality. This is also a housing scheme which has been approved by the Community Council and which is being financed by a building society.

In Deep Meadow a housing scheme has already been commenced with which provides for approximately 1 700 better quality houses with waterborne sewerage and electricity, as well as 400 apartment buildings. Also in this case houses will be allocated by the Community Council to building societies for erection, and the building societies will finance certain parts of the project until the houses are sold. Other private organizations will also be able to erect houses of better quality for the residents of Deep Meadow in this area with the consent of the Community Council.

In Dobsonville a beginning has also been made with the provision of services for a scheme of 1 700 houses. Under this scheme provision is being made for the erection of houses with funds provided by financial institutions as well as Community Council funds for which application is made. The houses in this area will be sold or leased on an economic basis.

In the areas to which I have just referred, provision is therefore being made for the following: In Pimville 7 and 5:930 houses; in Deep Meadow, 1 700 houses and in Dobsonville, also 1 700 houses. All the plots will be properly surveyed from the beginning, and it will be possible for intending buyers to register a 99-year lease on the properties concerned, i.e. all the buildings which are being erected in the areas mentioned will qualify for building society loans under the leasehold system. In Alexandra, with reference to my recent announcement concerning the retention of Alexandra as a family residential area, planning is being undertaken in consultation with the representatives of the community, the West Rand Administration Board, as well as with other parties concerned, and plans will shortly be submitted to me for approval after they have been considered by the Greater Soweto Planning Council. As we have heard from the hon. member for Sandton, they are happy and satisfied because excellent progress is being made in that respect. While I am dealing with the hon. member for Sandton, I shall accept his invitation. I should like to meet the people of Alexandra again. I shall look into the whole question of the Coloureds there in collaboration with the hon. the Deputy Minister of Community Development. Together with my officials, I shall look sympathetically into that matter and I accept his invitation.

I now wish to refer to other housing actions. The following residences have been completed in the West Rand area: 162 in Bethesda, 242 in Randfontein, 300 in Krugersdorp and 450 in Soweto. As regards the planning of additional residential areas: Over and above the combined total of 5 484 houses, to which I have now referred, good progress is also being made with the planning of housing schemes in Protea South, Protea North and Chiawelo, all areas which are situated to the south west of the existing Soweto. Unfortunately problems were experienced with the underground earth formation, but the geological surveys in this connection have now been completed and the planning of the area has been initiated by decisions of the Soweto Community Council. I personally have made at least five, if not more, telephone calls in an attempt to speed up the geological survey in Protea North and Protea South so that planning can proceed. It is planned to build between 15 000 and 20 000 units in this area, and it is anticipated that it will be possible to begin with the first development of services, and perhaps also with the buildings of houses in these areas, before the end of this year.

When do you expect to finish?

As soon as possible. Once we start and the contractors are on the scene, they will continue building. We are determined to solve this problem to the best of our ability. There is no question about that.

In Kahiso, 2 500 residences are being planned and also a modern hostel for 6 125 men, with provision for a library, a study, sports facilities, restaurants and shops. Additional land is being purchased near Randfontein for a new residential area. A modern hostel for 500 residents is currently being built in the Randfontein residential area.

I now wish to refer to essential services in Soweto. The biggest single problem confronting Soweto is the question of the improvement of existing essential services and the provision of additional essential services, including sewerage, water, storm-water drainage, roads, rail connections, etc. After successful negotiations between the Administration Board and the Johannesburg municipality, it will now be possible for the city council to proceed with the extension of its sewerage services to accommodate the increased flow which will come from the Soweto complex. The estimated contribution on the part of the West Rand Administration Board until 1984 amounts to R29 million in this connection. If we can solve that problem for Soweto, we would have solved a tremendous problem.

Apart from the progress that is being made in connection with the housing schemes, urgent attention is also being given to the planning of Greater Soweto and to the upgrading of services and housing in the existing residential areas. With regard to the electrification scheme, may I just inform the House that progress on the Greater Soweto electrification scheme is proceeding at a very rapid pace. It is expected that the scheme, which has been approved in principle, in its entirety will cost R153 million. The first phase, which it is estimated will cost approximately R14 million, has been finally approved of. Certain physical works have already been initiated, for instance the electrification scheme for Soweto. This has already commenced, and it is expected that electricity will have been provided to an initial 4 000 houses by the end of June this year. By the end of the year it is expected that electricity will have been provided to 8 000 additional houses in Greater Soweto. Hon. members should remember that the hon. member for Houghton asked me last year when we were going to switch on the first lights in Soweto.

I am still asking the same question.

I can tell that hon. member that we are almost there.

Perhaps now she is going to ask when we are going to switch them off.

It is anticipated that 150 additional high-mast lighting points will have been switched on by the end of June this year.

As far as the wiring of houses in Greater Soweto is concerned, the most economic method of providing this service is currently being investigated under the auspices of the Building Research Division of the CSIR. I personally went there to see what was happening, and I can tell hon. members that they are really doing a tremendous job there in this connection. All arrangements have been made to proceed with the work with the greatest possible speed. The chairman of the Greater Soweto Planning Council, Mr. Rive, has successfully negotiated with Escom for the spending up of the provision of electricity so that the electrification scheme can be accelerated, and I want to extend our sincere thanks to him for that. It is expected that it will now be possible to complete the whole electrification scheme of Soweto by the end of 1982 or early 1983, whereas formerly it would have been by the end of 1985 or early 1986.

I am pleased to be able to announce that, with the co-operation of the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications and the hon. the Minister of Finance, arrangements are in hand for the financing of the major share of the electrification project in a fashion that will considerably ease the financial burden for the Soweto community. The Post Office hopes to be able to invest approximately R100 million with the councils over the next few years at 8% per annum for this specific purpose. This is between 2% and 3% cheaper than money obtainable from any other source. It will therefore amount to an annual saving of between R2 million and R3 million for the people of Soweto. The Black people have millions of rand invested in the Post Office Savings Bank, investments which in turn are normally invested with the Public Debt Commissioner. The interest rate of 8% is sufficient to ensure that the Post Office’s return is in excess of what it has to pay to investors, and in this sense no financial loss will be suffered. I wish to express my appreciation for the Post Office’s assistance in making available long-term, low-interest rate money in order to ease the financial burden to the community.

Let me tell hon. members that what we are doing here we are not doing only for Soweto. We also have the interests of other townships at heart. In order to illustrate this, I want to tell them that provision has already been made in this year’s capital budget for the first phase of the electrification of the urban areas of Kagiso, Mohlakeng and Bekkersdal, situated respectively at Krugersdorp, Randfontein and Westonaria.

With regard to the service fees in Soweto, we all know that it is not economic, and I would make an appeal to Opposition speakers for heaven’s sake to realize, when they speak about rates in Soweto, that this is a delicate matter and that they should therefore speak about it with great circumspection. In actual fact, the rental plus service fees amount on the average to R17 per month. There are few things I have made a more in-depth study of than the question of rates in Soweto, because it is obviously of tremendous importance for all of us. The average income of the head of a family in Soweto is R3 060 per annum, or R255 per month. Rental and service charges therefore amount to only 6,7% of their monthly income. So when the hon. members speak so glibly about rents in Soweto, they do not have any basic facts whatsoever at their disposal, and I know the difficulty of the situation there. Hon. members can trust me, but they must also get the facts and know that they are dealing with a difficult situation here. We must assist the people of Soweto to help themselves. We assist them in the best way we possibly can. Hon. members can go and look where else in the world there is a situation where a service charge is levied which amounts only to 6,7% of monthly income. They should therefore be careful about the way in which they speak of these things. The Community Council recognizes that these fees should have to be adjusted, and they are indeed giving attention to the matter. Let us keep ourselves out of these delicate questions and give them the opportunity of solving their own problems in the best possible way. I have absolute faith and trust in the people of Soweto to do it, and once they have started doing it, hon. members will see tremendous development in Soweto. On the other hand, they will not be able to do it while White politicians and others interfere from the outside every time and cause a big political ruction in Soweto itself. Then it becomes impossible for the people of Soweto. It grieves me to see how White people are interfering in the affairs of the Black people of Soweto and making it virtually impossible for the Black people to solve their own problems. For whose sake are they doing it? Certainly not even for the sake of the Black people, because it is not in the interests of those people. The Black people want to get ahead and they want to assist themselves. Let us give them an opportunity to do so and enable them to show the rest of the world what they are capable of doing. I am dealing with this in a very careful manner as hon. members certainly know by now.

I now want to devote attention to the manpower centre. Arising from the reports of the Riekert and Wiehahn Commissions, a sophisticated manpower centre is being planned at New Canada, close to Soweto, at an estimated cost of R366 000. This planning is proceeding in consultation with all interested bodies. The centre will cater for the provision of employment, the selection of workers, training and orientation requirements of the public and also have the necessary facilities for the administration of the Unemployment Insurance Fund and the payment of old-age pensions and disability allowances. The establishment of a manpower centre at New Canada will result in a saving of time and travelling expenses for the residents of Soweto.

As far as the tarring of roads is concerned, two road contracts for a total value of R1,8 million for the tarring of internal roads have already been taken up. It was a battle to get this project off the ground, but it has now commenced. As the leasehold system has now been streamlined so as to facilitate the acquisition of the right of leasehold— tomorrow I shall say more about the 99-year leasehold and I shall also make an announcement which I think is a very good one—the West Rand Administration Board has erected a separate office at New Canada at an estimated cost of R50 000 for the purpose of facilitating the 99-year leasehold system in Soweto. This building, which will be completed shortly, will establish a “one-stop” situation, where all aspects of housing transactions can be dealt with. Additional staff have also been appointed to cope with the expected increase in the workload.

As far as the Jabulani civic centre is concerned, a scheme of approximately 400 flats of a higher standard is in the planning stage and will principally be made available to business and professional people and employees who are active in Jabulani and in the district. Light industry, commercial and administration areas are very important. The construction plan of the whole light industrial, commercial and administration areas has been submitted for final approval, after which the development and especially the business centre and light industrial areas will receive attention. Last year I could not speak in terms of light industrial enterprises. I could only speak in terms of service industrial enterprises.

What is the difference?

There is a very important difference for those who know what the difference is. In the meantime the Cabinet has decided that they can erect light industries in Soweto and other Black townships. There is no question about it that it is a great step ahead. The Blacks can man and run these enterprises. I shall also say more about the 51%-49% system tomorrow.

I want to conclude what I want to say about Soweto by referring to commercial development. Although Soweto has approximately 1 600 small shops scattered around the township, there are also well located larger sites which are suitable for development and are being developed into small shopping complexes, or in some instances into regional centres. This would cater for the full spectrum of the community’s requirements such as administrative, trading, cultural, religious, social educational and high-density residential needs.

With the advent of the motor-car and the rapid growth of car ownership in Soweto, regional and local shopping centres are now essential. This modern town-planning concept has already been implemented on sites at, for example, Diepkloof proper and Dube. Lack of adequate funding has to date hindered more rapid development. In Protea, a new area for development, shopping centres, both local and regional in size, will be planned.

In Jabulani, a 61 ha site, which already accommodates the council offices, a bank and post office buildings, is visualized as the central business district of Soweto. It will have shops, flats, a supermarket, a hotel, a cinema, offices, etc., together with adequate parking facilities. The Jabulani site is well located on road and rail routes. When I said that a small Carlton Centre will be erected in Soweto, I did not boast about it. We are dealing with these things. At the moment I have at hand 12 applications, running into millions of rands, from interested parties to share in these projects on a 51:49 basis. All these projects are in the process of finalization. Some buildings are already in an advanced stage of completion, while others will shortly be put up.

A shopping centre in Pimville Zone 7 is part of the layout development. A shopping centre in Diepkloof Extension is part of the layout. In Diepkloof proper a 5,16 ha site opposite the Baragwanath hospital already accommodates the following: A hotel, a shopping complex, the “Black Chain Supermarket”, an office complex, the Homes Trust office building, the African Bank, a garage and a carwash. I want to say in great modesty that had it not been for us there would not have been a “Black Chain Supermarket”. It was very difficult to have it reach the stage where it is now and we are very happy and proud that again it was teamwork of the highest calibre between White and Black that made it possible. Off-street parking is allowed and there is a separation of pedestrian and vehicular movement.

In Orlando East a shopping centre is to be planned together with the renewal layout. The Heckroodt circle in Meadowlands is being developed for shops and offices, including a telephone exchange. In Dube a site of 1,7 ha accommodates a bank and a building society branch office. A new supermarket/hotel complex is being planned together with an area for off-street parking. As far as other sites are concerned, I want to say that Naledi, Chiawelo and Phiri have also been planned in such a way that shopping centres could be established.

It is not for me to go into detail about the speech of the hon. member for Houghton, but I think I have given more than ample proof that we have people who are really with the Black people and who form with them a formidable team in solving problems. They do this instead of shouting from the rooftops without really making a solid contribution as to how these problems should be solved.

“Tomorrow I should like to react to other questions that the hon. member for Houghton put in regard to influx control, the question of the “dompas” and various other matters. Now I should like to react to the speeches of some hon. members on this side of the House.

As we expected, the hon. member for Port Natal made a very sturdy contribution. He sent me a note in which he said that he should like to ask for a liaison department to be established, to liaise with the private sector in order to bring the tax benefits with regard to housing to their attention. He said that there were 30 000 industries in the country and asked whether they were all aware of these benefits. I want to tell the hon. member that I think it is a very positive suggestion. I shall ask my department to give attention to this matter. I think that if it is possible to start a liaison department, we should do so in order to enable people to learn more about this important matter. I want to thank him very much for the contribution he made. In fact, he made a monumental contribution by presenting monumental figures to the hon. member for Houghton in particular, in order to show what achievements are being accomplished in South Africa, specifically in the field of housing. As befits a good speaker, however, he also pointed out the problem with regard to what still has to be done in this country.

While on the subject of housing, I want to tell hon. members that surely I have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Government is bending over backwards to try to cope with the housing problem to the best of its ability. Unless we in this country reach the stage where State funds are utilized for creating infrastructures and houses are built on an economic basis, we shall not make progress in solving the housing problem. State funds should be utilized for creating infrastructures and houses must be built on an economic basis. In this regard, with the assistance of tax concessions, etc. the private sector must be in a position to come to our aid.

The hon. member for Gezina asked me for my standpoint with regard to the Black purchaser who has to buy his provisions in White areas with a great deal of trouble and expense. I thank him for his fine contribution in this regard. The clear standpoint of the Government in this regard is that the Blacks should spend their money in the national States or in the urban areas as far as possible, so that they do not have to purchase their provisions in White areas. That is why growth points are being created with a view to economic development in the national States and positive steps are at present being taken with regard to trade in these Black urban townships, in which regard I have just pointed out some examples. This is a new direction which is being taken here. I have no doubt that this will be very successful, and the Black people show signs of taking it seriously. They will be able to purchase articles in their own residential areas according to the extent in which they assist in establishing businesses there, and it will have those advantages.

As far as the national States are concerned, there are also the activities of the Economic Development Corporation in particular. I do not want to say anything further about this at this stage. I should very much have liked to make an announcement in this regard, but my department and I—in fact the Government—are seriously at work to see how we can best go about creating facilities which will assist the Black people, who are now going into partnership with White businesses on a 51:49 basis, but who are not sufficiently well provided with capital to put up the 51%, in obtaining funds at reasonable rates of interest so that they can in fact make their contribution on that partnership basis.

The hon. member for Mooi River made a very important speech. The question of squatting in rural areas in Natal is a tremendously important one. I paid a visit to that area. We are giving attention to it. This year we have had a great deal more money voted to combat the problem, and it was very, very difficult to obtain it. I can assure the hon. member of that. I sometimes lie awake at night thinking of the problem there. It troubles me a great deal. It is a colossal problem but we are really giving attention to it and we are making progress in that regard. I am pleased that the hon. member raised it here this afternoon. As he correctly said: “We have got to provide wealth in the community so that they can assist themselves.” That is another point. If we do not pay these people adequate wages—taking productivity into account—surely the provision of wealth cannot take place. After all, it is not the task of the Government alone to convey that message. I imagine that the hon. the Opposition is in a much better position to convey that message in the interests of all the people in South Africa, in order to provide real wealth in those communities. Then those problems will be solved. Therefore, I say thank you very much to the hon. member. There were other things that he asked too. Tomorrow I shall say more about the urban Blacks, and then I shall reply to those questions.

The hon. the Deputy Minister told the hon. member for Houghton what was what in no uncertain terms. He showed, with all due respect, that the hon. member for Houghton does not know as much about modern Soweto as she knows about farmers, and she knows precious little about farmers.

I was in Soweto yesterday.

I just want to tell the hon. member what I read the other day by Mark Twain—

Who is the bull?

We on this side have had these difficult problems by the tail several times, and really, by this time we know something about them. [Interjections.]

†I shall consider the proposal of the hon. member for Walmer. I have noted it, and if I can be of assistance in that regard, I would be delighted. I am very happy that we could assist with the electrification in Port Elizabeth. Things are going according to plan there.

*The hon. member for Klip River apologized for being unable to be here.

It is wonderful what a little riot can do.

With regard to Inanda, the department is engaged in a reorganization there. Inanda is creating a tremendous problem. There is no doubt about it at all. We recently received a report on it, but I cannot say anything more about it now. The hon. the Deputy Minister of Development will reply in detail to the hon. member for Klip River tomorrow on the question of control. This falls under the excellent Deputy Minister, and consequently he will deal with it. I thank the hon. member for Klip River for his contribution.

I shall now refer to the hon. member for Albany as well. The question of right ownership in Fingo Village is a tragic and important matter. If we say it is under consideration, it sounds as though it has been shelved. Certain problems are involved in this matter. I can give the hon. member the assurance that we are really making it our earnest endeavour to solve that problem as soon as possible. I was there myself and I know what the problem is. We shall try to solve it as soon as we can, but there are problems involved that make it impossible simply to make a decision and to say that there, you now have ownership. Hon. members must understand that. However, we are attending to it.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister whether he can give us any idea at all as to when a decision will be possible? I accept that there is a problem, but can he put any time limit to the decision?

I must be very careful now.

No promises!

I cannot make a decision on that without taking the matter to the Cabinet. That gives the hon. member an idea of the importance of the principle of certain aspects that come into play. So, if I say that I can do it in, say, a month, I may not be able to do so. I may not be able to do it even in two months. But I certainly hope it will be possible to do so within the next three months or so. However, I must be careful because this is a very ticklish issue. The hon. member must understand that. However, I shall take the matter to the Cabinet and I am awaiting memorandum for the Cabinet on this issue. This matter has many implications and I cannot tie myself down to a specific date as to when I shall be able to give the decision. Suffice it to say that I shall do it as soon as it is humanly possible. I feel strongly for those people, and I should therefore like to solve it as quickly as I can.

*The hon. member for Parys is a member who has a great deal of experience of the Commission for Co-operation and Development and in my opinion he made a brilliant speech. It is true that, as he said, we must give the corporations more powers, particularly with regard to the secondary and tertiary sectors. We must also strengthen the national development corporations. He must come and help us and I want to state here today that this is an objection that we simply must achieve in the next few months. I thank the hon. member for it.

The hon. member for Pietersburg made a very fine, sterling contribution here on the development of Lebowa. In this regard I just want to single out one aspect. As far as education in Lebowa is concerned, 1 000 additional teachers were appointed at the beginning of 1980, 1 000 in one national State alone. Do hon. members know what we have achieved in Lebowa? The teacher: pupil ratio has been reduced from 1 to 80 to 1 to 47. I personally held four round table discussions with the senior officials. These things do not fall out of the sky; achieving it was a very difficult process. The Olifants River scheme is a fine example of White/ Black team work to make that vast project possible there. I thank the hon. member for his positive contribution. It does one’s heart good when hon. members speak like this about the development of the national States in their areas.

The hon. member for Hillbrow raised the important matter of Mrs. Edelstein. We have a great deal of understanding and a great deal of sympathy, not only myself but my colleagues as well. The hon. the Minister of Justice is here, and it is simply not possible to show more understanding and sympathy than he has done in regard to the matter. The Department of Co-operation and Development is conducting an in-depth investigation into her case and as soon as we have an answer to it, we will try to do whatever is necessary. I thank the hon. member for his contribution. Tomorrow I shall discuss the 99-year leasehold system in greater detail.

I thank the hon. member for Ermelo for his contribution. What he said is true. Planning and conservation of soil is of the utmost importance. Kangwane is the youngest of the national States. This is why I visited them this year and not the others. There is a strong movement of Black people back to Kangwane, an absolute national migration. If one is not aware of it, one simply cannot believe that something like this is possible. Those Swazi’s are proud to return to their own fatherland, Kangwane. Of course, their traditional attitudes to land create problems, but they are looking at the whole set-up. They are progressive people and they will make contributions.

I have already replied to the hon. member for Middelburg. It is true. We must not arouse expectations. I wish to thank the hon. member as well for his contribution.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.