Mr. Chairman, this is perhaps an opportune moment for me to deal briefly with the aspects raised by hon. members up to now.

In the first place I wish to address the hon. member for Orange Grove.

†Hon. members will recall that the hon. member for Orange Grove referred to the difficulties of which he had been informed that are being experienced by Black passengers because of the new Ermelo Station being some distance from the township. At the present time the new station is only being used by personnel for operating purposes and has not yet been opened to the general public, including the Black community. Consequently no passengers, Black or White, join trains at the new station. Thus far no hardship has been caused to any other passengers because of the erection of the new station. The old station, which is closer to the township, is still in use also by these people. It has not yet been decided when the new station will be opened for passenger traffic and consideration will be given in due course to the provision of platform and ticket facilities for Black passengers nearer that township.

The hon. member also stated that there appeared to be a surplus of concrete sleepers. I believe the hon. member’s statement may be based on the released sleepers which cannot be re-used and are therefore being left alongside the railway track. The cost to remove those sleepers is not justified. Therefore they are left on the site of release. Where concrete sleepers are being used for relaying these are offloaded alongside the railway track in anticipation of the relaying gang doing the work so that the material can be readily available when the track construction gangs arrive on the site. Therefore it is not a waste.

The hon. member’s statement that there are only two manufacturers of concrete sleepers is not correct. When we recently called for tenders, quotations were actually received from five concrete sleeper manufacturers. Fastenings for this type of sleeper were included in the same tender and only two quotations for this have been received. The five manufacturers of concrete sleepers are the only known manufacturers of this material.

*The hon. member for Kempton Park raised various aspects. He wanted to know whether the first-class travel facilities on our Airbus and other aircraft could not be done away with as a temporary measure until the other aircraft have been commissioned. To be able to compete with other airlines, it is essential that we retain our first-class facilities on our overseas flights. On flights to the United Kingdom, New York and Australia, the utilization of first-class seating accommodation is high, and it is, in fact, extremely profitable. On other flights such as the routes to Hong Kong, South America and the Mediterranean areas, where the seating utilization is not so favourable, we are already using the upper level of the 747 SP aircraft for economy class passengers. However, we must not lose sight of the fact that the first-class tariffs on overseas flights are three times higher than the economy class excursion rates. The seating utilization in the first-class section of the Airbus has increased sharply during the past two years. During peak periods—i.e. on both early morning and early evening flights, as well as during holidays—the first-class accommodation is fully booked. Therefore I believe that it is also important to have first-class facilities on our domestic flights, particularly on the Airbus, since passengers from abroad travel first-class and therefore expect first-class facilities on our domestic flights as well.

The hon. member also asked what punitive measures could be applied in the case of passengers who did not turn up for flights on which they had booked seats. Provision is already being made for a surcharge of 15% on the total air fare in cases of passengers who do not turn up for flights on which they have been booked. A campaign was recently launched to effect an improvement in this regard. By means of the Press, the radio and also by means of stickers attached to their flight tickets, this problem is constantly being brought to the attention of passengers. Random checks are also being conducted on flights in order to follow up all cases where passengers do not turn up, with the assistance of the station manager or the travel agent. Actually the problem lies with this party. However, I wish to point out to the hon. member that this is a world-wide problem. All airlines encounter this in some form or another.

Next the hon. member wanted to know how effective the excursion fare introduced on 15 January 1979 was with a view to increasing the seat utilization on aircraft He also wanted to know whether there were still times of the day when seats on aircraft remained unutilized, also when the seating utilization was at its maximum, and when it was at its minimum. I am replying very briefly to this. The seating utilization on our aircraft has improved significantly during the past year, as is evident from the figures for the period January 1979 to January 1980. Between Johannesburg and Cape Town, it improved from 73,6% to 75,7%. Between Johannesburg and Durban, it improved from 61,9% to 71,5%. Between Johannesburg and Port Elizabeth it improved from 58,4% to 69,1%. Between Durban and Cape Town it improved from 74,7% to 79,2%. The peak period continues to be early in the morning and early in the evening, and the seating utilization on these flights is very high and in many cases, even 100%. Of these flights, i.e., return flights—in the middle of the day and late at night, are not yet fully booked. I wish to add once again that this is a world-wide phenomenon. Airlines throughout the world therefore accept that an average seating utilization of over 70% means that during peak periods, passengers are left behind.

The hon. member for Amanzimtoti inquired about the value of the harbour assets on which depreciation contributions were now being levied whereas there had not previously been any contributions in this respect. In the first place, I wish to draw the attention of the hon. member to the fact that the amended contribution scale which will come into operation on 1 April 1980 will, for the Administration as a whole, have the same effect as the previous scale. The effect is the same as that of the previous scale. That means that the increase in depreciation for the whole organization, as provided for in the budget for 1980-’81, may be attributed entirely to the fact that more assets have been put into operation, and also to the further increase of 10% in the depreciation contributions to which the hon. member referred. Depreciation on the additional assets put into operation during the recent past amounts to R35 million, and the further levy of 10% therefore gives us an amount of R50 million, to which the hon. member referred. With regard to the harbours and the assets on which a depreciation at 3% is now being levied—these are the harbour walls and quays which were not previously contributory—the value is R370 million.

†The hon. member also referred to objections raised by the S.A. Railways against the deviation of a road over Railway property at Umkomaas. Let me explain. Objections were raised by the S.A. Railways, on 14 May last year, against that deviation of the road by the Natal Provincial Administration, since the road would then have encroached on Railway property at Umkomaas and would have hampered future Railway development at that centre. I shall, however, ask the Administration to investigate the position again to see whether any assistance can be given.

The hon. member also requested that snap raids be carried out at Amanzimtoti Station. The Administration is aware of the problem. In fact, I have written to the hon. member in this regard. The Railway Police have again been instructed to give this particular station special attention, especially in regard to loiterers who molest users of the footbridge over the line. I hope the hon. member finds that satisfactory.

The hon. member also referred to the safety of personnel in South West Africa, and also to the unfortunate death of Mr. Van der Bank. I should like to furnish the relevant information in this regard, because I do not believe that there should be any misunderstanding about the circumstances under which he was killed. In the first place I should like to assure the hon. member that all the necessary precautions are taken to ensure the safety of the Railway staff in South West Africa. In reply to a question put to me previously, I have already replied that we have, in fact, adopted certain measures to strengthen our locomotives in that particular area. The hon. member will appreciate the fact that I cannot publicly give him the details about such measures, because that would negate the efficacy of introducing such measures.

I just want your assurance.

The hon. member has my assurance. Let me, however, give the circumstances surrounding this particular case. One measure adopted is to arrange for staff working in isolated areas to sleep in one of the larger and more secure centres. Mr. Van der Bank, however, elected to sleep in an abandoned station building, even though Grootfontein was only about 30 minutes travel away. He did this against the advice of his superiors and colleagues. I should like to stress the fact that the Railways is by no means disowning responsibility towards Mr. Van der Bank’s family and dependants. They are well provided for. Steps have again been taken, however, to ensure that the relevant instructions are obeyed at all times by our staff.

The hon. member also asked what the turnover in hostesses was and what the loss was in terms of training costs. Let me say very briefly that the resignation rate of air hostesses on the S.A. Airways is not in any way abnormal in comparison with that for other airlines. There are specific reasons for this. The total air hostess establishment is 523, of whom on average 100 resign annually. This is a bit more than 20%. Of these only 19 have less than two years’ service with the S.A. Airways. Although this figure may ostensibly seem to be high, I must point out that many of the young ladies join the S.A. Airways with a view to seeing the world, and as soon as they have achieved this ambition, they resign. On joining the service, they sign a two-year contract, and the majority abide by that, as the figure of 19 indicates. The hon. member, being a man, will understand that the emphasis falls on attractive girls when selections are made and consequently the marriage rate is high and the majority resign after marriage. Many again come back to the service after marriage. The cost of training is recovered over the first two years of service and, as an average of only 19 with less than two years’ service resigned, the cost has not been high in this regard.

How many do you train per annum?

We train a sufficient number to replace the ones who resign.

Are you on the selection board?

I wish I was.

If not, why not?

It is dangerous.

*I wish to react to the inquiry by the hon. member for Bloemfontein East in connection with the possibility of a new station and administration building. I hasten to state that it gave me pleasure to listen to the hon. member. When he explained what the impact of the Railways was on Bloemfontein and the significance this organization had for that city, the potential of the Railways for the advancement of culture was immediately brought home to me. I should like to avail myself of a subsequent opportunity to discuss that in greater detail. I do not think we often realize that the contribution of the Railways to culture, particularly to the culture of the Afrikaners is phenomenal. It has made an immense contribution towards our awareness in this regard. An outstanding example of that was the symbolical ox-wagon trek of 1938. However, let me be more materialistic and reply to his question. No new station as such for Bloemfontein is being envisaged in any of the planning proposals for the next five years. A proposal for new station facilities for third-class passengers is, however, on the planning board list for possible financing during 1982-’83. Completion of these facilities would bring relief for all passengers, and this would make the building of a new station at Bloemfontein unnecessary for the foresee able future. The planning board also supports the idea of an administration building for Bloemfontein for possible inclusion in the 1983-’84 financial year.

†The hon. member for Von Brandis inquired about the facilities for non-White bus passengers at Johannesburg Station. Let me say immediately that I will accept the invitation of the hon. member to visit that station so that he can give me more on site information on the problems that exist there. The proposal for the provision of a bus terminus for non-Whites has been supported by the planning council for inclusion in the 1982-’83 estimates. So I am able to give the hon. member a positive answer in this regard. The proposals of the council involve the utilization of air space between the station for non-Whites and Wanderers Street Bridge. The proposal is being investigated and planned in collaboration with the Metropolitan Transport Advisory Board. Short-term improvements will be effected on the north side of the station from where long-distance buses depart This will involve fixed shelters as well as an improvement in the traffic flow pattern in buses.

The hon. member for Musgrave has apologized for not being able to be here today. I should just like to give the information in regard to his complaint about the delay at City Deep in respect of the documentation of containers. The position is, very briefly, that the invoices for containers railed from Durban to City Deep are printed out on a computer terminal. It has happened in the past that the computer has gone out of action for short periods without serious consequences. But there have been several computer breakdowns causing serious delays to containers. In several cases invoices had to be typed in Durban and flown to Johannesburg. In many cases delays can be attributed to the late submission of the necessary documentation by the container operators or agents. Breakdowns are mainly technical of nature and precautions are taken where weaknesses are discovered. The hon. member also referred to what he called “a discrepancy” in the container-flow figures quoted in the report of the General Manager and the figures I used in my budget speech, and asked on what basis the projections had been made. I should like to explain that the report of the General Manager is for the financial year 1978-’79, and therefore reports on the period from 1 April 1978 to 31 March 1979, whereas the figure in the budget speech is for the period from April 1979 to December 1979. That is the difference. The container-flow projections were based on analyses made towards the end of 1976 by the Europe/South Africa Conference Lines, and have subsequently been modified by estimates compiled by the Administration in respect of the American and Far East trades. Concerning the justification for the expenditure of the amount of some R10 million reflected in the Brown Book for further extensions to containerization in Durban, I wish to point out that no provision is made for this amount to be spent on containerization as such. Item 363, however, shows an amount of R10,825 million as having been spent to date on extensions to the container facilities at Bayhead with a view to reducing the transport costs.

The hon. member for Musgrave referred to Berea Road and Durban’s new station. A feeder service from the new Berea Road Station to the central Durban area is a matter to be decided upon by he Durban Metropolitan Transport Advisory Board. The same arrangement is applicable to feeder services to the new Durban Station which is under construction at present. The new Durban Station complex will cater for both main line and suburban passengers, and no separate suburban station is envisaged. The Durban Station is being placed in service as follows: Two suburban platforms are already in use, while a further three suburban platforms will be commissioned in May this year, and the rest, that is suburban and main line, will be put into use by the end of 1980.

The hon. member then referred to item 361 of the Brown Book concerning mess and ablution facilities for non-White train marshallers and requested information in this regard. I should like to explain that provision is being made for 312 train marshallers. These will replace the temporary facilities constructed of galvanized iron.

The hon. member also referred to an investment of R3 million during subsequent years reflected against item 124 of the Brown Book in respect of Berea Road Station, whilst it was stated in the budget speech that this would be completed either in the current financial year or had already reached a stage where it could be taken into use. I wish to explain that the amount of R3 million which is needed for subsequent years, is mainly required for the completion of signalling, telecommunications and overhead track equipment for electrification. However, the station can function without these facilities when it is finally completed. For information it may be mentioned that these facilities are already partly in use.

The hon. member also referred to items 550, 551 and 552 of the Brown Book, namely hostels for non-Whites in Bayhead, Plessislaer and Umlazi, and he requested information in that regard. The hostels at Bayhead, Plessislaer and Umlazi are planned for signalmen and will accommodate 2 007, 3 000 and 3 700 men respectively. The hostel at Plessislaer will, however, initially provide for 1 500 men. The hostels had been planned for single accommodation, but they can be converted to married quarters, as I indicated yesterday.

The hon. member referred to the old station and the new one. I should like to explain that the new railway station at Durban is being built partly on land obtained from the city council in exchange for land on which the existing station is located. When the negotiations were initially conducted with the council in regard to this transaction, it was agreed that the land which was to be alienated in favour of the council—that is the site of the old station—would be transferred to the council vacant and unencumbered. In other words, the Railways had to demolish their buildings on that site. It is therefore incumbent on the S.A. Railways to demolish the old station building in terms of its agreement with the council. I have intimated in discussions with the city council that if the old station is not to be demolished the property can be transferred to the council as it stands, in which event the Administration would be prepared to pay to the council a further cash amount representing the amount that it would have cost to demolish the building. This figure has been calculated to come to some R20 000 after allowing for the value of the material released. I think that is very generous.

Yes, that is very fair.

The hon. member for East London North requested that radar be installed at the East London airport. I want to say immediately that this issue should be discussed under the Transport Vote and not here.

We must stop that nonsense.

I am going to give him the answer in any event, but that department is responsible for the installation of this equipment at airports. I want to emphasize that the necessity for a radar system has at present a very low priority as the separation of aircraft in the East London area is carried out by means of the radar system at Port Elizabeth. In other words, the control of aircraft in the East London area is effectively being carried out from Port Elizabeth. However, it is anticipated that within a period of four to five years air traffic will have increased to the extent that separation of aircraft in the East London terminal area, which has a radius of 30 miles, will require the use of a short-range terminal radar system, and an interdepartmental committee under the chairmanship of the Department of Transport has recommended accordingly. The delivery time for this aid is approximately two years and the cost will be between R1 million and R2 million according to the figures we have available. It is planned to include the cost of this aid in the estimates of expenditure for the Department of Transport Affairs during the 1983-’84 financial year.

Provided there is money for it.

Provided I get the money for it. The hon. member also referred to the electrification of the Springfontein-East London line. I want to explain that work will start on the electrification from the East London side. The current will be supplied by Escom and they determine the price of electric energy sold to us. It is, however, possible that the electrification of the line can lead to lower prices to other consumers. The hon. member also asked whether the speed of trains in the East London area will be increased when the main line to Bloemfontein has been electrified. The question of faster trains after electrification of the line between East London and Stutterheim has not been finalized. However, no substantial improvement is expected owing to the many curves on this line.

The hon. member further referred to tugs at East London. I want to explain to him that the Administration at present has four tugs on order, all of which should be delivered during the course of this year. With these tugs having been commissioned, two modern tugs will be stationed at East London harbour.

*The hon. member for De Aar put a series of questions to me. He requested, inter alia, that the existing facilities at De Aar, which will become available as a result of the elimination of steam traction, should be converted into workshops. I wish to explain that the steam locomotive depot at De Aar will still be required for a considerable period, as steam locomotives will still be serving the section between De Aar and Kimberley. An electric sub-depot is being envisaged for De Aar, however, and I hope the hon. member will be satisfied with that. As regards the possible establishment of a repair depot for tarpaulins at Rosmead: Unfortunately I cannot react as positively as the hon. member would like me to. As a result of more effective methods of repair, and the higher productivity obtained by the introduction of bonus work, it has already been necessary to close the tarpaulin repair depots at Noupoort and Nelspruit. A further decline in the repair of tarpaulins is also expected to take place in future as a result of the change-over from cotton to plastic for the manufacture of tarpaulins. Consequently there is not even a remote possibility that a facility of this nature could be established. I hope the hon. member will understand my problems in this particular connection. I shall reply to the hon. member later on in connection with the proposal that power should also be supplied to rural areas.

Finally, the hon. member for Ermelo inquired about the possibility of a rail link between Moolman and Candover via Pongola. This would be approximately 120 km long and it is calculated that the construction costs could exceed R65 million. Such a railway line is not required for departmental purposes, and according to our information, possible new traffic in the service area of such a line would not be sufficient to justify the construction of this line from an economic point of view. The area is being served by the departmental road transport service, and this service could be expanded if circumstances were to make that essential.

Mr. Chairman, I rise simply to put a question to the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs, and then I shall possibly make a suggestion to him if there are any grounds for the suggestion. However, before proceeding to do so, you will allow me, Sir, to say a few words about the hon. the Minister personally. I do so with reference to his reply to the Second Reading debate. If I had to or could move a motion, it would probably have been a unanimous one. It is really a heart-felt need of ours to convey our appreciation to him for the sympathetic manner in which he replied to all questions, for the comprehensiveness of the replies as well as the fact that he gave his replies in the proper perspective. I believe one of the major invisible contributions to this debate may be the hon. the Minister’s stimulating sympathy and interest in his activities and those of the Railways by the way in which he replied. I have no doubt that in this case I am speaking on behalf of the Opposition, as well.

I should like to put a question to the hon. the Minister, viz. whether there is a system of awarding medals on the basis of merit in the Railways. In this regard I have in mind not only deeds of general human bravery and courage, but also sustained meaningful service. In this regard I want to mention just one matter, and that is that if one has regard to the fact that the officials at railway stations have to serve no fewer than 2,2 million people per day, the absence of one single incident is a remarkable achievement. There are busy peak hours when people of different race groups enter the Railway premises and make use of the facilities. If in addition to that, one has regard to the fact that there have been virtually no incidents of racial friction, apart from the single case recently in Natal pertaining to tariff increases, despite the fact that the Railways has to deal with large crowds of people, it is something unparalleled and that is why I am asking whether there is not a possibility of giving some recognition, apart from a customary thank you, to these people. I want to refer to the Railway Police in particular. The only distinguishing feature about them is the uniform they wear, and on the platforms they have to exercise authority and act as intermediators. This has been happening every day for many years, and if no incidents have occurred, I believe that this deserves something more than just the customary thank you.

If I may mention a second case, I should like to mention the hail storm which hit Jan Smuts Airport. Within a matter of a few hours, according to information, the staff responsible for clearing up the situation had made arrangements with the Boeing Company to send teams of technicians to assist with the repairs. By the following morning they had found, by tracing them all over the world, all the spare parts they could possibly need, had ordered them and ensured that they would receive them with a view to effecting the repairs. One third of the S.A. Airways’ fleet was damaged, but after one single day virtually the entire fleet was back in operation. I believe this is something more than just an ordinary achievement. We received many little lessons in criticism in this regard. Some people simply wanted one to clap one’s hands to have the aircraft take to the air like a flock of pigeons while others considered protective nets, and I should like to see a net which could cover the entire concourse at Jan Smuts Airport without any support and which, in addition, would be able to stop hail, rain and wind. We had all types of brilliant suggestions of this kind. We owe the staff an enormous debt of gratitude for preventing a crisis and unnecessary disruption. All of this merely as a result of an exceptional achievement. Consequently I have been wondering whether the time has not arrived for an award to be made in the case of the Railways, if one does not exist I am not referring to awarding medals for the usual human bravery, but to making a certain award for loyal, dedicated, sustained service under special circumstances of crisis. I should really appreciate it if the hon. the Minister would perhaps look into this matter in future, if my suggestion has grounds.

Mr. Chairman, I should first of all like to apologize to the hon. the Minister for my absence during his reply to the Second Reading debate. I had another appointment which I was unable to cancel.

Accepted.

Next, I wish to deal briefly with the main road between Muizenberg and Simonstown. It is a very narrow main road, there are a number of comers and the road goes past popular beaches. It carries very heavy traffic to Simonstown, for obvious reasons, for the Navy and also for the dockyard. More particularly during the period when extensions were made to the dockyard there had been a steady stream of heavy lorries taking stone and sand and other material to Simonstown. Accidents take place on the road and lives have been lost. I am not suggesting that the lives have been lost because of the heavy traffic during the day, but lives are certainly lost on Friday nights and Saturday nights because of young people going too fast and the road being badly built. Cars are regularly damaged over the weekends because they are parked along the sides of this narrow road. Speeding takes place throughout the day and in the evenings when there is no traffic control whatsoever enforced by the Cape Town city council.

The reason why I am mentioning this is because there is much surplus land between the old railway line and the carriage way. That surplus land cannot possibly be used by the Railways, and I shall tell hon. members why. First of all, if there is going to be a third railway line to the southern suburbs, that third line, I would suggest, will not be able to go any further south than False Bay Station. I cannot for one moment believe that a third line can be built between Muizenberg and, say, Fish Hoek. Beyond Fish Hoek, as far as Simonstown, there is not even a double line, but only a single line. My argument over the years has been that that surplus Railway land could be made available to the municipality of Cape Town for the provision of off-street parking. If that happens, it will certainly assist the “through” traffic and generally relieve congestion.

Yesterday, I put a question on the Question Paper asking whether negotiations are continuing between the S.A. Railways Administration and the Cape Town city council for the acquisition of surplus Railway land and, to my astonishment, the answer was: “No.” Therefore the second and third leg of my question fell away. From that I assumed that the negotiations had been completed. That was the only assumption I could make.

If you look at Hansard, you will see that I gave additional information in reply to your question, more than what you asked for.

I see. Well, that was the portion I was not able to hear. However, I want to take it a stage further irrespective of the hon. the Minister’s reply. If the negotiations have been completed and surplus land is to be made available by the Government, I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister to intervene in this matter and to see to it that the council does something with this surplus land, such as the provision of auxiliary parking places.

For years and years these negotiations have taken place. Every time we took matters up with the Town Clerk of Cape Town, he said that it was the fault of the Railways and that the Railways did not want to tell him what land was available, and every time we took it up with the Railways, they said that they offered the land to the council, but that the council would not conclude the deal. Because of my experience with the Cape Town city council, I will put my money on the Railways being right!

You can do it every time.

There are two councillors in our area, they are doing their best, but they are in a hopeless situation in that they only represent two out of 34. Most of the others are Progs who are only interested in Black-White relations, especially Black-White confrontation, and they devote all their attention and their energies to the situation in Sea Point and the central city, indeed anywhere else but the southern suburbs.

I have a petition here which I shall show to the hon. the Minister after this debate and which I shall then hand over to the Town Clerk of Cape Town. This petition has been signed by something like 300 people in the last week asking the Town Clerk to acquire the surplus Railway land for the council and to provide off-street parking. There was another fatal accident on a bend in the road at Kalk Bay last weekend. Until such time as surplus Railway land is made available to the council and the council actually does something with it, there is going to be an appalling congestion and trouble every weekend, especially during the peak periods during weekends. On this petition appear the names of people who are concerned about the situation.

I want to raise two other matters with the hon. the Minister. The first concerns level crossings in the area between Steenberg and Simonstown. There is a level crossing at Steenberg itself. It is a dangerous crossing where a number of Coloured people …

Between which town and Steenberg are these level crossings?

At Steenberg Station. Then there is one at Lakeside, another one at False Bay Station, an old one in Muizenberg which leads down to the beach, one leading to the Kalk Bay Harbour and another one across to the beach in Fish Hoek. The first two I have referred to, namely the Steenberg and Lakeside crossings, are particularly dangerous and there have been a number of fatal accidents there. I wonder whether the hon. the Minister could not give attention to these level crossings. The level crossing at Steenberg in particular is very heavily used by Coloured people going across the line from the Main Road to the townships.

The next point I want to make is a point in connection with access to the Kalk Bay Harbour. I think the hon. the Minister will remember that when he was here in another capacity I made an appeal to him for the extension of the Kalk Bay Harbour for the building of a small boat harbour. The crux of the matter in respect of that harbour is the access to it, which is over the railway line. For years we have tried to persuade the Government to agree to extend the harbour. About eight years ago the Government, in its wisdom, agreed to extend the harbour provided proper access was made to the harbour, but because the controlling authority in the area is the Cape Town municipality—and as I have said just now, they do not pay much attention to our area—we have been unable to get finality about a better access to the harbour and therefore the harbour cannot be built I wonder whether the hon. the Minister could not give his attention to this matter to see if we can get finality. The council has an extraordinary way of operating. When we made a fuss about 10 years ago, they planned an enormous road bridge across the rails. It was a colossal thing and everybody was of course up in arms. It showed that they did not intend to build that bridge and that they were able to say later that the local people did not want it. The local people do not want a bridge which looks like a huge S-shaped thing on pylons to get into a small harbour; they want a simple “hopover” bridge from the Main Road into the harbour. That is the council’s way of procrastinating and delaying a reasonable request The second-last point I want to make concerns the trains particularly travelling in the morning to the dockyard in Simonstown. I said during the Second Reading debate that a number of people form lift clubs because of the packed conditions in the trains and because some of the trains are a little slow.

That is because they are all-stations trains.

That is right. The stations which are most frequently used by people going to the dockyard are probably those at Steenberg and Retreat. I have had a look at those stations early in the morning and, really, the travelling conditions for non-White people are pretty bad. They are crammed, jammed like sardines into those trains. I think something should be done to make more carriages available to them.

The last point I want to make is in connection with the Railway Police. I referred to them during the Second Reading debate, but at this stage I should like to bring another point to the attention of the hon. the Minister. Over the weekends non-White coaches travelling to the popular beaches are absolutely filled to capacity. In fact, some of the people hang out of the windows and they cannot even close the doors properly. This is where the Railway Police should come into the picture because the Coloured people throw bottles, stones and everything else they can lay their hands on out of the trains as they pass the beaches. This behaviour has caused some people lying on the beaches to be injured, but apart from that, it is absolutely wrong that people should be allowed to behave like that in trains. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to make a few comments on passenger train services, particularly with reference to the announcement made by the General Manager in connection with the dramatic renewal of the service over the next decade or two.

But there was no such announcement.

I nevertheless want to make an appeal in this regard, but before I come to that, a few thoughts on pensions and pensioners.

The hon. member for Tygervallei dealt very thoroughly with the Railway pensioners’ case and in my opinion stated it in a very competent way as well. There is only one small group of Railway pensioners whose case I want to take up with the hon. the Minister today. They are people of whom one finds a considerable number in constituencies such as the one I am representing in this House, and they are causing us many headaches. I should like to make an appeal on their behalf and at the same time make a suggestion which could solve their problem. It also has the merit, as I understand it, that it should not entail any additional burden for the Railways.

The group of pensioners I have in mind, are those who (a) have already reached pensionable age—i.e. 65 years in the case of a man, and 60 years in the case of a woman—and (b) whose Railway pension is just too much for them to qualify for a pension payable by the hon. the Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions in the form of an old-age pension or other welfare benefits in terms of the legislation he administers.

All he has to do is increase those pensions and your problem is solved.

I hope he will do so.

To a shrewd Minister the solution would be obvious and that is, if possible, to amend the legislation in such a way that it would be possible to convert a portion of that pension into cash so that the balance would be low enough to bring them below the means test for old-age pensions and other benefits under the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions. I think one could perhaps limit this so that not more than a third of the pension could be converted. This would assist us tremendously in the problem I am stating.

I do not think this ought to cause the Railway Pension Fund any additional burden either, because the amount being paid out in cash is probably the actuarial equivalent of the amount of the pension or other benefit which would otherwise be paid during the course of the normal life expectancy of the person in question.

The principle I am advocating here has already been accepted as far as the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions is concerned, because this principle applies in comparable cases when pensions are paid from provident funds and under the Workmen’s Compensation Act. Consequently I should very much like to ask the hon. the Minister to give his serious attention to this matter and examine the possibility of alleviating the situation for these people. I am not asking him for a summary reply today. I realize that this is a matter with far-reaching implications. The hon. the Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions would probably have to be consulted in this matter as well. I also assume that if additional funds are in fact required here, the hon. the Minister of Finance will have to deal with this matter. However, I think that I have said enough for the moment The hon. the Minister will probably give further attention to the matter.

I should also like to express a few ideas on the question of passenger services. I want to do so with reference to the announcement which the hon. the Minister now says was not an announcement As I understand the matter, it was in any event an imaginative plan. For the renewal of our train services, reference is being made to the new generation train service, in which trains will travel at up to 180 miles per hour in the ’nineties, and the travelling time will be halved, while the passengers will enjoy the luxury of air-conditioned luxury carriages.

As a representative of the Eastern Cape I am delighted to see that the Divisional Manager of the Cape Midlands, Mr. Barry Lessing, also made an announcement that the train services of the Cape Midlands area would also be affected by this. He referred to a metamorphosis that would be undergone by that train service during the next five years. He made particular reference to the suburban train service between Port Elizabeth and Uitenhage and said that every effort would be made to improve that service. I welcome this and should very much like to express my gratitude for it.

To welcome this dramatic renewal, as well as to congratulate the hon. the Minister and his department on such an imaginative plan, and in particular—this is even more important—to laud the ability of an organization such as the S.A. Railways in being able to conceive of and carry out such a plan, and at the same time by way of contrast to this ability as well, I want to focus attention on a specific train service today. It is a specific passenger train service, which for the traveller is certainly the most romantic in South Africa, which could also on the other hand be regarded as probably the slowest long-distance passenger train service in the Western world. I am certain the hon. Minister knows to which train service I am now referring. I am referring to the daily passenger train service running from the vicinity of my constituency, in the Eastern Cape, through the hon. the Minister’s previous constituency, in the Southern Cape, to the vicinity of his present constituency in the Cape. One wonders whether this service will also be affected by the dramatic renewal which is being envisaged for our passenger train services.

When I tell hon. members from other parts of the country about that train service they react with incredulity and astonishment when they hear how long it takes to travel by train from Port Elizabeth to Cape Town. It is the most beautiful holiday trip one could possibly undertake. But from the point of view of rationalization and the improvement of the service it is a little archaic. As I have already said, it is certainly a pleasant train journey. Perhaps it was for the very reason that the journey is undertaken through such a beautiful part of our country that the time-table was initially drawn up in such a way. I doubt whether that time-table has been changed to any noticeable extent during the past 50 years. The distance is 1 085 km. According to the present time-table the journey takes 41 hours and 25 minutes, which, according to my calculations, amounts to an average speed of 26,2 km/h. [Interjections.] According to the time-table the trains stops at 142 stations and sidings en route. However, I can assure hon. members that the train stops far more frequently than that. That train stops for many more things as well. [Interjections.]

However, when one compares this train service to a few other train services, the picture is rather interesting. The Trans-Karoo express, from Pretoria to Cape Town, covers a distance of 1 608 km in a time of 30 hours and 8 minutes, which amounts to an average speed of 53,36 km/h. This is more than double the speed of our train, the train from Port Elizabeth to Cape Town. One could compare this to the average speed of the Blue Train which is no less than 61,84 km/h, but I realize that it is not fair to compare the two. I want to suggest that the hon. the Minister can speed up this train service in two ways. I do not think it is appropriate for a train service of this status to have to stop at so many stations and sidings. I believe we can certainly cause it to look less like a milk train by allowing it to stop at fewer stations. One could, of course, change the time-table as well. At present the train departs from Port Elizabeth in the afternoon and arrives here at nine o’clock on the third day. One could perhaps reduce this train’s travelling time by eight hours per journey. One could then leave Port Elizabeth five hours later. In that case it would not be necessary to serve an evening meal in the saloon, and if the train then arrives three hours earlier in Cape Town, it would not be necessary to serve breakfast on the morning of arrival either. In this way we could, in my opinion, improve the service tremendously. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I want to convey my sincere congratulations to the hon. the Minister and his management on this five, well-drafted budget. I also want to say to the hon. the Minister that I fully support him with regard to this South African transport service which he says has become of strategic importance to us. I think that this is also due to the management and the officials who have seen to it over the years that this organization has gone from strength to strength. I believe that hon. members from the East Rand—like myself—have studied this budget from the workers’ point of view. I am satisfied that many contracts could flow from this budget which are going to ensure growth in our part of the world. I specifically noted that my town will benefit considerably from it, and accordingly I am satisfied that the workers in my area will also benefit. The expansion of the S.A. Railways and S.A. Airways have always had a stimulatory effect on the private sector, agriculture, electricity supply and the industrial sector in South Africa. The growth of the one has always stimulated the growth of the other. My town can definitely attest to this. For this reason it is wise of the hon. the Minister to develop further the close contact which he and his department already have with the private sector. I want to congratulate him on that step and tell him that we support him in that regard.

The engineers of the S.A. Railways have shown that their design of the Scheffel bogie has brought about a revolution through the world and that it is even going to result in trains travelling more rapidly in future. This type of development by the engineering department is only possible if the consumer and the manufacturer can co-operate very closely. This is an eloquent example of how co-operation between the State and the private sector has put South Africa at the forefront of world technological development. Therefore it is necessary, in my opinion, that we should encourage our people, each in his own area and in his own place of employment, to help contribute to this constellation of States of Southern Africa which we are promoting so assiduously. For example, the northward expansion of our railways contributes towards the expansion and growth of Zambia’s copper-mines, and growth in those copper-mines, in turn, necessarily results in growth in our agricultural sector. The maize farmers are grateful for this, and the fertilizer manufacturers too. At the same time this reciprocal trade balances the railage moving to and fro between ourselves and them. If our transport service had not been of the quality it is, neither we nor Zimbabwe would have had such a flourishing tourist industry as we have at present. I want to illustrate with reference to this subdivision of the S.A. Railways, the possibilities for neighbouring States if they were to make use of the hand we are extending to them through the transport organization. What began in 1910 as a publicity and travel division of the S.A. Railways, gave rise to the establishment of the tourist corporation and the Department of Tourism. Today the publicity division of the Railways operates as a tourist development organization with 15 travel bureaux, three of which are situated abroad, viz. in London, Bulawayo and Salisbury. In this way tourism in Southern Africa is promoted. The growth of this department—and I refer hon. members in this regard to page 48 of the fine report of the General Manager—has over the years also been of benefit to Zimbabwe. Their tourist industry has also benefited from our offices in London, Salisbury, and Bulawayo, and we supported them in the years when they were subjected to boycotts throughout the world. It is cause for gratification that that department has shown a growth of R1,8 million, but one does wonder whether the war in Rhodesia did not contribute towards the department handling 4 000 fewer tourists last year than in the previous year. This is further evidence of the fact that instability in our neighbouring States can have a detrimental effect on our economy as well.

†We take note of the ingenuity of the Administration in managing to turn their lemons into lemonade. At a time when we have to pay exorbitant prices for diesel, they have rented 41 diesel-electric locomotives to neighbouring States like Zaïre, Zambia and Zimbabwe to help those countries maintain a proper flow of materials. Mozambique, Swaziland and Zimbabwe hire steam locomotives from us and we have sold 120 redundant iron-ore trucks and spares to Zaïre. This is a policy which we endorse and which should be continued. While our neighbours cannot afford to invest capital in a strong railroad system, we must assist them to move their export and import products at the lowest possible cost to and from our country. Let us rent and sell to them what we are phasing out and what they cannot afford to buy new. We should not hesitate to cast our bread on the water. If a strong farmer assists a not-so-strong neighbour to fight disease and pestilence, he himself is bound to benefit from it. By assisting our neighbours in this fashion, the Administration has succeeded in keeping the wheels rolling between us and the north and at the same time they were able to intensify our electrification programme, cut down on our diesel consumption and expand our railway network. This in turn brought about growth and job opportunities in the private sector.

*In his budget speech the hon. the Minister referred to the heavy losses incurred by the White passenger service. For that reason I again want to raise a matter which I raised last year. I want to ask that the S.A. Railways provide under-cover parking where possible and where necessary at railway stations in the metropolitan areas in order to encourage motorists to travel to work and back by train. I want to make a friendly request to the hon. the Minister to reconsider this matter. A motorist who travels between Cape Town and Somerset West at present spends about R80 per month on fuel. If he were to travel by train, it would cost him R24.

Go and hold a meeting in my constituency and tell them that. They do not believe me.

If one takes into account other expenses such as the cost of tyres and insurance, parking fees etc., I believe that he would save a great deal of money. However, one has to encourage him in one way or another. On the Witwatersrand in particular, where the motorists have to take the possibility of hailstorms into account, he cannot simply leave his car at a station. To date it has been the policy of the S.A. Railways that it is not its task to provide these facilities. They have regarded it as a function of the local authorities. On the advice of the hon. the Minister’s predecessor I raised the matter with my town council. Unfortunately the local authorities do not see their way clear to providing facilities of this nature with their limited sources of revenue. One has to take into account the possibility that only a handful of the motorists are ratepayers. Whereas both the S.A. Railways and the local authorities refuse to accept responsibility for the poor motorist, the motorist is in a fix, and unfortunately he has to spend a lot of money burning up thousands of litres of fuel travelling between his home and his place of employment. The construction of such covered parking ought by no means to represent unproductive expenditure for the Railways, since the covered parking is reasonably cheap, and if it could be hired out at an economic tariff, I think the administration would find that they would recover the cost of the covered parking within about 18 months.

I want to conclude by putting a request to the Opposition. I think that a restful atmosphere has prevailed in this debate for long enough. I want to ask the Opposition to advance a little more positive criticism because positive criticism would be to the benefit of South Africa, whereas negative criticism only assists our enemies. Instead of telling our enemies in this House how we caused a train to turn around at Touwsrivier in order, so they say, to belittle our Black fellow citizens, they could have brought the matter to the attention of the hon. the Minister by way of a letter. After the matter had been rectified, they could then have thanked the Minister here. In this way they, and South Africa too, could have benefited from their proposal. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Boksburg quite rightly pointed out the important role played by the S.A. Railways in developing good neighbourliness and good relations with our neighbours in Africa. I am sure all of us agree with him and appreciate the efforts that are being made by the S.A. Railways in this regard. He asked the Opposition to level some positive criticism, and I hope that I will be able to do this today. I would like to concentrate on the expense item which appears on page 32 of the White Book under the heading “Sales Promotion and Sales”. This is an item which is of considerable importance. For the financial year 1980-’81 an amount of R78 810 000 has been budgeted for under this heading. This is an increase of R7,28 million over the figure for last year, and the significance of this amount becomes apparent if one considers that the estimated expenditure for the S.A. Airways for the year 1980-’81 is R675 million. In other words, this item accounts for 11,6% of the total budgeted expenditure of the S.A. Airways for the year 1980-’81. The White Book gives some breakdown of the way in which the money is to be spent. For example, R6 953 000 is to be spent on advertising. For an organization with sales in excess of R600 million, this sort of expenditure would not appear to be excessive. However, I may mention that there is an old adage amongst marketing people that half of all expenditure spent on advertising is wasted. The important point is to determine which half it is, and that is normally impossible.

It is always a problem. Even for political parties it is sometimes a problem. [Interjections.]

I wonder which half of the hon. the Minister’s party is expendable?

Which half does the hon. the Minister want to get rid of?

In a more serious vein, however, I would welcome it if the hon. the Minister could give us a more detailed breakdown of items 3140 to 3144 in relation to sales promotion and sales. My interest is that the S.A. Airways should derive the maximum benefit from money spent on sales promotion and sales. I am sure that this is also the aim of the management of S.A. Airways. In this regard I want to make a few points which I believe are directly relevant to the amounts under discussion. Obviously an organization like S.A. Airways should be sales conscious, but expenditure under this heading would be wasted if the organization is not also orientated towards the interests of the market which it serves. It is essential for S.A. Airways that it should not only be sales orientated, but also marketing orientated. There is a good deal of difference between an organization which is sales orientated and one which is marketing orientated. As far as sales orientation is concerned, the major emphasis is on selling one’s existing goods and services. As far as marketing orientation is concerned, the aim is to satisfy the needs and wants of a defined group of customers. This is the only approach by which the existence of the S.A. Airways can be justified. It was created to satisfy the needs and wants of the South African public, and if one looks at the annual report of 1978-’79, one sees that nearly 2½ million domestic passengers used the S.A. Airways. Moreover, it has no competition on its domestic routes. It is therefore essential for the S.A. Airways to be orientated towards the needs of the South African public. There is a tendency—and this applies to all organizations, not only the S.A. Airways—for senior management to lose touch with the public it serves. This is particularly so when senior management is administratively and technically orientated.

The best way to find out what the market wants, is to conduct market research, and I understand, from what the hon. the Minister has said, that this was done with regard to commercial use. What I should like to ask, however, is whether consumer-orientated market research is being done. Such expenditure would normally go under this heading. I believe that it is essential that the S.A. Airways should take active steps by market research to determine what the consumer wants. As I have pointed out, this is particularly relevant, because consumers have no alternative but to use South African Airways. Secondly, I should like to ask whether there is an on-going programme to make all staff—and I put the emphasis on all staff—aware of the need to satisfy the wants of customers.

I note that under item 3108 training expenses for commercial and other staff is estimated at R460 000. Would that cover this particular aspect? I know that the client contact staff of the S.A. Airways go out of their way to be as friendly as possible, but I sometimes wonder if the back-up staff are giving them the support they should. I would like to refer to the problem of trying to get a reservation made in Johannesburg by telephone. The telephone just rings and rings. When one goes into the Rotunda, one sees that the people are busy, that they are not sitting around, but the telephone just rings and rings. This does cause aggravation amongst customers and I think negates a good deal of the good work which is done by the technical staff. It also negates the money which is spent on the technologically advanced equipment we are getting at the present moment. I think that the employment of a few receptionists in the Rotunda at Jan Smuts Airport, could alleviate this problem. The expense involved would be negligible, particularly, if one thinks of the tremendous capital expenditure on technical innovations. According to the Brown Book, it would seem that we will be spending over R4 million in this sphere, e.g. under items 1062 and 1063. There is a great danger that we can fall so much in love with our aircraft and technological innovations that we forget the really important point, which is to satisfy the clients who use the S.A. Airways. I think that if we can do a good job in satisfying the wants of customers, we would win their loyalty and get repeat business. What is even more important, is that we would make our expenditure under sales promotion and sales a lot more effective.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Edenvale will excuse me if I do not react to his speech. I think he addressed the Minister directly and I, too, should like to touch on a few points concerning which I wish to address the hon. the Minister directly.

Firstly, I should like to thank the hon. the Minister for the new railway line which will shortly begin to convey passengers to my new constituency. This is a long-standing need which will now be satisfied. Since this railway line will now be conveying passengers for the first time and since it runs through three specific parts of my constituency, viz. the Vrijzee section, the Tygerdal section and a third section which is surely one of the finest and most pleasant parts of my constituency but where I have never yet been able to obtain one vote for or against me, I should like to make use of this opportunity to give the inhabitants of these areas some consideration, in spite of their aloof political attitude! I am referring to the Acacia Park section. [Interjections.] They are not biased; they are nevertheless very politically aware. Personally, however, I have never yet been able to obtain any vote for or against me there. No one votes there, and no one has any need to make a contribution in my constituency. Nevertheless I want to make use of this opportunity to ask the hon. the Minister, when names for the railway stations in that area are being considered, to consider names such as Acacia Park …

Hear, hear!

Those were the most “hear, hears!” I have ever had in this House.

A second area traversed by the railway line is Tygerdal, and I should like to submit that name, too, to the hon. the Minister as a very appropriate name that could be used there, or even Vrijzee, but I shall leave it at that.

When I had the privilege of taking part in the debate of the Committee Stage of the Railway Appropriation last year, I predicted that one day we should have to give consideration to trains travelling faster, even up to 200 km per hour, etc. It was therefore gratifying to see a heading in Die Burger of 7 March this year, which read “Treinry teen 180 km per uur kom in Suid-Afrika. ” I want to express my pleasure at this. That is still 20 km short, but in the course of one year the Railways has made such tremendous progress that anything could happen in the years to come.

Since this country of ours has four central industrial areas, viz. the Johannesburg-Pretoria complex, the Cape Peninsula, Durban and then, perhaps, an inbetween town, Bloemfontein, in the middle, we have the problem that there is virtually nothing in between. Our problem is that we need rapid transport to convey raw materials, manufactured products and also human material. In order to do so, we must rely on mass transport as only the Railways can do it. Aircraft can convey people, but they cannot handle the total mass transport that is necessary and even essential for our further industrial expansion and increase in growth rate. That is why this report is encouraging and I wish to express my gratitude that the Railways is acting with a view to the future. I also want to express the hope that this possibility may be brought to fruition, as predicted, in the ’eighties and ’nineties.

Along with that I wish to refer hon. members to an article that appeared in the Sunday Times of 9 March under the heading “Cape to Zambesi retail secrets”—

Reference is made to an investigation which will indicate how populations are going to expand and develop over the next 35 years. I quote further from the report—

In conjunction with what the hon. member for Bellville said, I feel that here is an opportunity for the Railways to consider introducing an additional factor instead of only operating on an economic basis—I do not reject that, because it is indeed a sound policy—as is the case at present. With a view to planning, decentralization and the associated basic policies we follow in this country I think that the Administration should perhaps consider changing its policy somewhat so that the Railways also stimulates, in the sense that it contributes towards envisaged development in contrast to what we find at present, viz. that the Railways does not develop before it is economically justifiable or justified to do so. In this regard I refer to a matter like the development of Atlantis. In this regard it is encouraging to note that the Chempet railway line is to be built. I hope that there will also be passenger services and not only a goods service. I maintain that it is essential that it should be a passenger and goods service in order to allow Atlantis to develop in the full sense of the word. Let us take an example at the other end of the Peninsula, Mitchell’s Plain. One could have had an entirely different perspective on the development and rate of development there, if the principle had been adopted as a point of departure that the Railways had to stimulate the expansion and development there instead of waiting until the development had reached a certain level and rate and then, when it was economically justifiable, considering the construction of a railway line. I think this request I have made is in line with the basic ideas expressed by the hon. member for Bellville, but since the hon. the Minister is going to reply to that in the Third Reading, I shall leave it at that for the time being.

I should like to raise another point It is the same point which the hon. member for Hillbrow mentioned the other day, viz. the narrowing of the wage gap. Unlike him I do not want to discuss “the same salary for the same job” as he put it, because I do not entirely agree with the hon. member. I think “the same salary for the same productivity in the same job” is the point of departure of this side of the House.

I do not want to concentrate so much on the question of productivity, but I should like to call for the hon. the Minister’s full attention to what I am going to say about the difference between men and women. I want to make use of this opportunity today to seek support for women. [Interjections.] The privilege of having a lady member on this side as well, has done a great deal to motivate us to do more to champion the cause of women in this House. I felt that I should waste no time in associating myself with her and trying to break a lance for the women of South Africa. I want to ask whether the hon. the Minister should not consider narrowing the salary gap between men and women in his department, and doing so more rapidly than we are doing at present. I can see no reason why there should be any difference in productivity between men and women doing the same job. I should like to quote an example. With regard to the instructresses who train air hostesses, I maintain that men and women perform the same service as regards the training provided. I may be wrong, but my information is that formerly their salary structure was equal. However, it was later altered in such a way that the men’s income was higher than that of the women. I wonder whether that is right, and I wonder whether the hon. the Minister would not give his attention to that matter once more. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I rise merely to convey my thanks and appreciation to the hon. the Minister of Transport for the way in which he inspires the railwaymen. The new hon. Minister is truly an inspiration for the railwaymen. Recently he visited the Salt River works. I want to ask on behalf, too, of my hon. colleague from Uitenhage, that the hon. the Minister should visit Uitenhage and Port Elizabeth as well.

I have been there.

We are really in earnest in making this request. When time permits, the hon. the Minister must visit us. We should greatly appreciate that.

I also wish to associate myself with the hon. members who have expressed their thanks and appreciation for the salary increase that the hon. the Minister has granted the railwaymen. I just want to say to the hon. the Minister that he must not take any notice of the agitation of the Opposition to the effect that his budget will promote inflation. It is simply a case of sour grapes on their part We who deal with the railwaymen every day—in our constituency as well—know what they do. We know what sacrifices are expected of them. When the hon. members of the Opposition and many of us are lying asleep at night, and it is hailing, or there may be a thunderstorm, or it may be cold and windy and wet, the railwaymen has to work in the shunting yard in the middle of the night and he has to shunt the trains. We must bear in mind that while he works, we are sleeping. The Railway people do not render a service to the Railways alone but also to the people of South Africa Very few of our people realize how much is expected of our railwaymen.

The hon. the Minister is of course also proud of the large Railway empire he has in the Eastern Cape, particularly in Port Elizabeth. I just want to mention that the greater part—virtually 95%—of that empire falls within my constituency. Hon. members can therefore see what an important constituency I represent. When one approaches Port Elizabeth, the first thing one sees in my constituency is the Swartkops railway station. All the trains to Port Elizabeth first have to pass through this station. Further on there is the New Brighton station to serve the non-White people. A little further on one finds oneself in the area where I used to live. There one finds the Sydenham railway station. A little further on, also in my constituency, is the North End railway station. Therefore there are four stations in my constituency. If one travels a little further one comes to the main station. I want to say to the hon. the Minister that this main station, which is unfortunately situated in a SAP-constituency, is really in a wretched state.

Is it as a result of that?

The main railway station has been neglected. Unfortunately my hon. colleague is not present at the moment. I want to help him ask the hon. the Minister that we give some attention to the main railway station. The facilities there do not satisfy today’s requirements. If possible, a new main station must be built, but then it must be built in Port Elizabeth North where there is land available for that purpose. Port Elizabeth North has the ideal site for the construction of a modern railway station, one we could be proud of.

The hon. the Minister’s empire does not extend only as far as the railway stations. The goods depot is also within my constituency. All goods have to be handled there. All the shunting works are also in my constituency. Then, too, there is a diesel locomotive depot in my constituency. A shed for electrical locomotives is also to be constructed in my constituency. The depot for steam locomotives is in my constituency too. Of the greatest importance is the railway hostel, which provides boarding for a very large number of young men who are preparing themselves for a future on the Railways. In addition, a living complex for approximately 2 000 non-Whites is to be built in my constituency.

I should like to point out to the hon. the Minister that there is a fine Railway residential area in my constituency. It is of the utmost importance. It is those people who render the services. From time to time due attention is given to those dwelling houses, but nevertheless some of those houses are not inspected every five years in the normal course. The other day I visited one of those dwelling houses. The people in that house could not even open the windows. It is not that it has been neglected, but it must not be overlooked that those houses are close to the sea and that as a result the windows rust very quickly.

I should also like to thank the hon. the Minister for the new works that are to be undertaken in my constituency, particularly the platform shelter to be built in Swartkops. This is a large station which serves as a junction. I am particularly grateful that a platform shelter is to be built at the Swartkops Station after the several representations I have made.

Changes are also to be made to the steam locomotive workshop, and for that, too, I want to convey my sincere thanks. The electrification of the railway line from Port Elizabeth to De Aar via Cradock is also going to commence. I wish to thank the hon. the Minister sincerely for that.

To conclude, I want to point out to the hon. the Minister that we need not be afraid of the hon. Opposition’s argument that this railway budget is going to promote inflation. Whether there is inflation or not, the railwayman must be looked after. He must get his salary. He must be able to lead a decent life and look after his wife and children properly. As soon as hon. members of the Opposition hear that the railwaymen are being given an increase they accuse the Government of furthering inflation. Why do they do that? Surely that is totally untrue. In the past they used to say that we only gave the railwaymen an increase shortly before an election was to be held, and that after that the Government never give the railwaymen another thought.

I made a calculation and came up with an interesting answer. I discovered that 32 years ago there was a UP Government that had the railways under its control. However, it was a government which died an unsung death. Today it is no longer there, and therefore one can hardly refer to it any more. However that calls to mind something else. Hon. members know that the railways have scrapyards everywhere where all the old worn-out pieces of metal and the wrecks of wagons and trucks are thrown away. I gave the matter careful thought and then decided to go and look for the old United Party which used to have the railways under its control. I found the old United Party lying, worn-out and done for, where it had been thrown away in a scrapyard. Now, it has often happened that when one scratches around among the rubbish in a scrapyard, one finds here and there a piece of material which can still serve some useful purpose. In just the same way, hon. members of the Opposition went scratching around in that old political scrapyard. Naturally they scratched around among the remains of the old United Party. As a result they formed an Opposition party which is nothing but a scrapyard party, a political party derived from a political scrapyard. [Interjections.] That is exactly what they are today too. [Interjections.] We have an Opposition party that originated in a scrapyard. That too is why the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is such a frustrated man. He has found out that he is the leader, not of a political party, but of a political scrapyard. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Port Elizabeth North has now conducted a private war. In the first instance he waged a private war with the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central.

No, he has not.

Well, he claimed that Port Elizabeth Central had all the evils in the world while in Port Elizabeth North everything in the garden was rosy. To balance that, however, I want to say that I think Port Elizabeth Central has a pretty good MP. I shall leave to the imagination of the hon. member for Port Elizabeth North what I think of the hon. member who represents that particular constituency. I think that when it comes to scrapyards he is pretty close to one himself. Therefore, I should not begin to throw too many bricks away if I were him. [Interjections.]

Well, I should now like to institute another private war here this afternoon. I am sorry to see that the hon. the Minister is not in the House at the moment. What I want to do is to start a war between two hon. Ministers. I must say though that the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs has my deepest sympathy. He has my deepest sympathy because in this House he wears two hats. He wears the hat of the Minister of Railways as well as the hat of the Minister of Transport. He is wearing the hat of the Minister of Railways and it is to that hon. Minister I wish to address myself this afternoon, because I believe that the Minister of Railways, the hon. the Minister in charge of the debate here today, is constantly striving for greater efficiency in the S.A. Railways and Harbours and in the S.A. Airways. I am sure that his efforts on behalf of the S.A. Airways must, in his thinking, take prime of place because of the importance of the S.A. Airways in modern day communications.

The external services of the S.A. Airways are, I believe, possibly the best in the world. I also believe that its internal services are of a very high standard. An earlier speaker on this side of the House referred to the fact that some 2,5 million people were carried by the internal services during the year ending 31 December 1979. They were carried safely. They were carried well. Nevertheless, we have room for improvement. And this is where this hon. Minister has my sympathy, because I believe that the hon. the Minister of Railways has a problem, a very real problem. I think he must have extreme difficulty in negotiating with the Minister of Transport. I think this hon. Minister of Transport Affairs is an impossible fellow. I think it is time the Minister of Railways took the gloves off and started to smack this Minister of Transport Affairs around a bit. He has to adopt a hard line with this inflexible Minister. He must also call upon him to negotiate with the Treasury in order to obtain funds for improvements in airports and airport facilities. If he cannot get the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs to do this, I suggest that he gives him lessons, because this hon. Minister has managed to get R2 000 million to improve the rolling stock in order to get up speed—if I may put it that way—to really get things moving at a faster rate in the S.A. Railways. He has got that from somewhere. So I think he can perhaps teach that other hon. Minister a few lessons.

Let us look at airports. The S.A. Airways can only be as good and efficient as the airports provided for it. So in order to increase efficiency in the operation of the S.A. Airways one must have efficiently run and efficiently functioning airports at the various centres.

Unfortunately there are four Ministers involved.

I want that hon. Minister to start a fight with all of them. [Interjections.] I shall put my money on him. [Interjections.] I want to refer, firstly, to the case of the missing airport, La Mercy. The hon. member for Simonstown, on 16 May 1972, put a question in this House. He asked when it was anticipated that La Mercy Airport would become operational. In those faraway days the then Minister of Transport said that no indication could be given at that stage. Then, in 1976, I asked whether there was any delay in the construction of the new international airport at La Mercy, if so what it was and whether it was still anticipated that the airport would be operational by 1982, only two years hence. The Minister said that there was no delay and that the Department of Transport was planning to have the international airport at La Mercy operational. Can hon. members see how that Minister has let this hon. gentleman down, because he said he was going to have it operational by 1982? He did say, however, that there was a bit of a problem with the economic situation.

George said yesterday that I let myself down.

Then in 1977 I asked what the latest estimated date for the completion of the new international airport at La Mercy would be, as also the latest estimated cost. Again I was told that the Department of Transport was still planning to have the new airport operational by 1982. There was, however, a little rider to the effect that curtailment of Government expenditure might cause that date to be postponed. On 3 February 1978 I again asked what the latest estimated date of completion was, and also what the cost of the new international airport would be. The answer was short, cryptic and to the point: 1983-’84—So we moved from 1982 to 1983-’84. In 1979 it was said that the date of completion depended entirely on the availability of funds. Now this was a new answer. Can hon. members see what he is doing to the S.A. Airways? [Interjections.] He told us, however, that the earthworks were sufficient for the erection of those buildings and structures planned for phase 1 and that that had been completed. In 1980 I tried a new tack. I did not ask when it would be completed. I asked when the building would be recommenced, and I was told that the building would be recommenced in 1981 and that it would be completed four years after the date of the commencement of construction, which takes us to 1985.

I shall have to change that reply again.

Having said that, let me add that I believe that the time has now come for this hon. Minister and his department, under the guidance of the General Manager of the S.A. Railways, to insist on firmer undertakings because the situation at Durban’s Louis Botha Airport is becoming more chaotic as each day goes by. Durban-Johannesburg has become what one may call a commuter trip. It is a commuter line between those two cities and passenger facilities are chaotic. The situation at Durban’s Louis Botha Airport leaves a lot to be desired.

Speaking of chaos, I want to refer to another chaotic situation. When one goes into an airport, be it at Durban, Cape Town, Johannesburg or wherever, and one selects a queue in which to stand in order to have one’s baggage weighed in, one is in for a frustrating experience. Inevitably one goes to the shortest queue, only to find that the fellow up-front is busy checking in a rugby team. One shifts to another queue, only to find that one has got behind some chap who is booking in a hockey team. This is a criticism and I think it is a justifiable criticism.

I do not like to criticize without offering an alternative, so I want to give the alternative. If one goes into a bank today, one finds there a common queue for all.

In the Rotunda too.

Perhaps this is done in the Rotunda, but I do not know. Behind the counter serving either the coastal route, the Johannesburg route or whatever, the girl who is free first could then indicate that she is free. The next passenger then moves forward and …

In you go.

… weighs in his baggage. In that way it is done in an orderly fashion. I appreciate that there could be difficulties with baggage. Therefore I want to suggest that, rather than do that, one could possibly do what is done by a number of motor spares houses, i.e. have a ticket dispenser. One finds these in most motor accessory shops and on the premises of motor franchise holders dealing in spare parts. In the case of an airport one could have a clock with a dial number on it. Each person takes a ticket with a number on it and as he is attended to, so the clock advances to the next number. The person who holds the ticket with that number on it knows that on production of it he is the next to be served. Quite seriously, I think this will speed things up. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman I again listened with pleasure to the hon. member for Umhlanga. I want to tell the House about the time, about a year ago, when the hon. member was a travelling companion of mine in distant countries, in Europe. I do not know how fair the arguments were that he advanced today, but I must say that the hon. member can at times be a very formidable person. One day in Hamburg he gave one of the Social Democrats a hammering in their Rathaus about anti-South African standpoints. I shall leave it at that.

I want to say to the hon. the Minister that for my part I also wish to congratulate him on the brilliant way in which he is handling the affairs of the Railways. In doing so, I also wish to thank all the officials, from the General Manager and Railways Commissioners right down to the most humble official. There are few of my generation of the ’thirties, the years of the depression and the great drought—(perhaps it does not look like it)—who cannot call up memories of those years. My father did very humble work on the Railways and in those days the Railways meant a great deal to the people. Few of us do not have nostalgic memories or emotions when we hear or see a train or when we walk into a station. I think that many authors could describe engaging episodes called from the life offered by the Railways.

To speak as the hon. member for Rissik again, I want to say to the hon. the Minister that I, too, have a railway line running through my constituency. For almost 14 years I have not discussed it because thus far I have not had any difficulties with the Railways. However, I want to tell the hon. the Minister that there are three stations in my constituency along this railway line. The first station has the distinctive name of “Hartebeesspruit”. The next one has the distinctive name “Rissik”; and the last one—I say this to my colleagues in the Cape and in the Free State—has the distinctive name of “Loftus”. I wonder what thoughts loom up in hon. members’ minds at the mention of that name.

Loftus? Where is that? [Interjections.]

It is the home ground of the “Blou Bulle” of Northern Transvaal.

There is very heavy traffic at those three stations at peak times. Something that has caused a certain amount of difficulty in my part of the world over the past year or two, is the fact that there is a great crowd of people coming and going. In a suburban area of the type found there, in my area, there is sometimes an unnecessary degree of crowding, and then, too, one sometimes has people who are entitled to wait there. Two problems arise in this regard. Sometimes the question is asked whether the facilities really exist to make provision for everyone, since such a station is also the meeting place of various population groups. We must bear in mind that the facilities were built there a number of years ago. This is one matter to which I should like the hon. the Minister to give his well-meaning attention.

The second problem also concerns something that is occurring to an increasing extent. I refer to the fact that muggings, molestations, and so on are occurring to an increasing extent near the stations and also within the station area. This is of course the responsibility of two bodies. Outside the station premises it is quite probably something which the S.A. Police have to see to, but on the station premises themselves this is, in my opinion, the responsibility of the Railway Police. I think it is as well that where one notes that such problem situations could arise, one gives attention to them before the problem becomes too great In this short speech I ask the hon. the Minister to give his attention to this matter.

Mr. Chairman, I listened very attentively to the short speech by the hon. member for Rissik. It was a pleasure to listen to it. Perhaps, just to complete the record, I should point out to my good hon. friend that there is a station nearby which is called Newlands. [Interjections.]

Actually I rose to speak because I want to put a few requests to the hon. the Minister on this occasion. However, the fact is that if one wants one’s requests to be given a hearing, one must motivate them thoroughly. Therefore I want to begin by saying that the S.A. Railways is undoubtedly one of the biggest national institutions in South Africa. Our Railways has not only made an incalculable contribution to the development of South Africa; it also sees to the welfare, accommodation and development of an enormous labour force which at present consists of more than a quarter of a million Railway officials and servants. On this occasion it is cause for pride to be able to mention the fact that our Railways administration consistently tries to keep this labour force happy and contented.

I do think I should also say, in the course of my introduction, that the Railwayman has done his share. If we are fortunate enough, today and in the years that lie ahead, to reap the fruits of an outstanding transport system, then in my opinion it is also as well that we should pay tribute to the railwayman whenever we can for the tremendous contribution he has made, not only to the Administration in particular, but to South Africa in general as well. Having said that, I believe that there will be general agreement that when the history of the development of South Africa is finally written, those annals will undoubtedly contain a very important chapter devoted to the contribution made by the railwayman.

The Railways has been able to develop this labour force of more than a quarter of a million men because the Administration has never hesitated to look after the interests and needs of the railwaymen. I can qualify this statement by referring to a number of matters. However I want to confine myself to one matter and that is the enormous housing effort of the Railways Administration.

This has been an enormous effort, the outcome of which has been that up to now, railwaymen have been provided with more than 60 000 dwelling units. It is important to note that in a young developing country like South Africa, the Railways have availed themselves of such a brilliant modus operandi. It is also interesting to note that the Railways began with a 100% housing loan scheme. In terms of this scheme, more than 28 000 dwelling units costing more than R345 million were made available to Railway officials. They followed this up with the well-known 10% housing scheme, and although the Railways only contributes R29 million in terms of this scheme, it has been calculated so brilliantly that with the aid of the building society system they have been able to make more than 19 000 dwellings available to Railway officials. Finally, they followed this up with the 1975 pension fund scheme. This scheme has developed so tremendously in its short period of existence that more than 11 000 dwelling units have already been provided at a cost of R304 million. However, that is not the end of the story. I could continue to elaborate on this. In the 1980-’81 financial year, the Railways will devote almost R185 million from its various sources of finance to provide an estimated 6 000 houses.

Having said all this I want to pay tribute to the hon. the Minister and his Administration on this occasion for their far-sightedness and the clear and practical provision of these very important housing projects.

Having completed my introduction, I can ask the hon. the Minister, as I did on a previous occasion, to reconsider the policy in respect of the purchase of Railway properties on behalf of the Railway official. The policy is that the dwellings are purchased in the name of the authorities and accordingly they are registered in the name of the authorities on behalf of the Railway official. In other words, to use the customary expression, the Railway official does not get the title deed of the property before the purchase price is paid. Fortunately the hon. the Minister, with his many talents, is also a brilliant attorney and lawyer and therefore he will have no difficulty understanding what I am driving at. I do not think there is any difficulty involved in protecting the rights and interests of the Railways by allowing the registration of a mortgage bond against the deed of transfer and also allowing the transaction and the registration to be done directly in the name of the Railway official, because this system will entail innumerable benefits for the Railway official. I want to mention only two examples in this regard. Firstly, it will give the official a tangible security. This is something he can use to good effect on a rainy day—for example, in a case of illness or when children have to go to uniersity—even though a mortgage is registered against the deed of transfer. Alternatively, a real system of mortgage registration could be designed. We in South Africa have fine examples of this. In this regard I could refer to an insurance system operated by the building societies and to our own Land Bank system. In other words, if a Railway official were to die and his payments on his house were no longer paid, his widow and his family would have a paid-off house because the insurance system would have paid off the mortgage.

On this pleasant day I want to address a second request to the hon. the Minister. Due to the extremely pleasant and good conditions of service—which are cause for pride—of the Railways staff in general, they are in a position to purchase houses that cost more than the average. I say this with the greatest respect and compassion. In addition, it may be mentioned that nowadays there are not many houses that are available in a class under the R40 000 limit. The result is that if in exceptional circumstances—I am not going to go into all the details—someone were to purchase a dwelling for more than R40 000, then a portion of his loan, viz. the difference between R40 000 and the higher purchase price, would bear interest at 10% of the higher interest rate. I shall just qualify that. Someone purchases a house for R40 000 and gets a mortgage for R35 000; in other words, the difference is R5 000, and in certain circumstances the railwayman will have to pay the higher interest rate on R5 000. I therefore ask that the hon. the Minister should consider allowing the customary 5% or thereabouts to be charged on that R5 000 as well, under the circumstances prevailing at present.

Finally, I want to make use of this opportunity to express my gratitude for the success achieved in that the policy has been changed to enable the Railwayman to build extensions which are not necessarily regarded by the Railways Administration as most essential as was the case in the past, and this also applies to extensions to what, for the most part, are older houses. He can now build these extensions, and from about September he may borrow money for the extensions at the lower interest rate of plus minus 5%.

There is still just one thing which I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister. There are still certain loans at a higher interest rate. In my opinion one could perhaps follow the example of the building societies in those cases by saying that just as the bank rate and the general interest rate are reduced from time to time due to prevailing circumstances, we shall reduce that interest rate from time to time as well. The payment which the Railwayman must make need not necessarily be reduced, but the interest rate can be reduced gradually, as circumstances justify doing so.

I have made these representations because I have no doubt that the Railways, together with the railwayman, is one of the finest institutions in our fatherland. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Newton Park will forgive me if I do not follow his arguments. I am sure, however, that the hon. the Minister will react to his speech. I did, however, find the speech made by the hon. member for Vasco extraordinarily interesting. Whereas he now levels criticism at the discrimination in pay levels between men and women and could not justify it, in the same breath he justifies the discrimination of pay between Whites on the one hand and Blacks and Coloureds on the other hand. With great respect, I find his argument very difficult to follow.

There are a few matters that I should like to draw the attention of the hon. the Minister to this afternoon. The first one concerns the world-wide crisis in energy, to which the hon. the Minister himself referred and about which he advised us that South Africa would have to expedite research into the building of installations for the production of alternative liquid fuels. Therefore I should like to ask the hon. the Minister, where he told us that the CSIR is in fact conducting certain investigations and experiments into this matter and are in fact dealing with diesel, naphtha, ethanol and methanol, whether on the locomotive side experiments will take place in regard to battery-operated vehicles, which have proved to be very successful in the United Kingdom. Fuel is saved over distances which are not very long and these vehicles are very good as far as pollution is concerned as well. On the diesel side I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether the mixture of diesel and naphtha is being used by the S.A. Railways or by the CSIR. In other words, is it the CSIR itself who have set up the installations or is it the S.A. Railways who are doing so? At the same time the hon. the Minister can advise us whether this sort of experiment will bear fruit, because, obviously, this is a crisis throughout the world and certainly one which is facing us here in South Africa.

This leads me to my next point, viz. the electrification of the S.A. Railways. The hon. the Minister has told us that it is already the policy of the S.A. Railways to convert to electrification and that 85% of the gross ton kilometres will be derived from coal-based energy, of which 80% is electricity and 5% steam.

I should like to ask whether we have a policy on that basis. I think I am correct in saying that it is the intention to convert the whole of the S.A. Railways system into an electrical system. If that is correct, I should also like to ask how long it would take and whether it would be possible to do so. There are obviously many areas which require electrification, and there may well be certain areas, particularly in hilly country, where it may not be very practical, but in the long run from the point of view of the fuel consumed it will be like the old argument of local authorities having to decide whether to use buses which are run on diesel or tramway trollies which are run on electricity. No doubt fuel is becoming scarcer and more expensive, and therefore this policy should be pursued in the interests of South Africa. We are pleased to note that approximately R310 million is being spent on electrification in some of the major areas.

One area which concerns me particularly is Soweto where a circular rail is being constructed at a cost of approximately R20,6 million. This is very welcome indeed, because that is an area which requires attention as far as passenger traffic is concerned. This circular route will go around the Rand mineral line through Kaserne and George Goch back via Langlaagte and New Canada. I take it that this is going to be a much longer route than the direct route at present from Soweto to Johannesburg. If that is the case, how much longer is it going to take for trains to reach their destination, and what is the programme with regard to the completion of this particular route? I used to serve on a committee many years ago comprising members of the Johannesburg City Council and the S.A. Railways where we discussed an extra spur being placed on the rail between Soweto and Johannesburg. Is this to take the place of that, or is the idea of constructing an extra spur also to be executed? No doubt, this is an area which requires close attention. We know we have a lot of problems there. People there are complaining that they have to get up at four o’clock in the morning in order to get to work on time, and that they get home late in the evenings. Those trains are full and the hon. the Minister himself has in fact referred to the problems of congestion and overcrowding. I was a little alarmed, if I may say so, to hear the hon. the Minister say that he foresaw that the expected economic upswing would result in overcrowding. Here I think we must take extra precautions with regard to longer trains, the frequency of the trains and the problem of congestion. [Interjections.]

Together with this problem we have fresh in our minds the question of what happens on these trains, because we have just read the Cillié Commission’s report, to which the hon. the Minister has no doubt paid particular attention, and particularly paragraph 17.2.1 on page 608 where the commission reported—

It was interesting to see that the commission itself went on some of these journeys and ascertained that these claims were perhaps a little exaggerated, but did admit that there is congestion on these trains. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether he will persuade the department to undertake surveys themselves from time to time in order to keep an eye on congestion, people hanging out of trains, and on journeys of this nature.

Coupled with this, there is the question of another aspect of the report to which I think we should pay attention. We find that on the next page, page 609, in paragraph 17.2.4—

This is a real problem. When they return home with their wages and their pay-packets, particularly on Fridays, they are robbed on the trains. Because of the congestion it is easy to pick-pocket these people. Yesterday I spoke about increased pay for the police, I meant it sincerely and I trust the hon. the Minister will give it his attention. I appeal to the hon. the Minister and his department to put more policemen on these trains to see to it that the people are properly protected so that they can get home with their pay with which they will be able to buy food and supply their families with the basic needs they require. In view of the problem that exists, I think this speaks for itself.

I should also like the hon. the Minister to comment favourably on a recent announcement that the Federal Consultative Council of the Railways’ Staff Association has opened its doors to all trade unions, including the non-European trade unions in the Railways. This is a most welcome step. It is in line with labour legislation and has been received very favourably by Tucsa and others who have said that this is the greatest break-through in labour relations in South Africa. I hope the hon. the Minister will, at the earliest opportunity, comment favourably on this aspect.

One last aspect I should like to raise is the question of excursions by train. I am told that in the old days this was a real money-spinner.

Swindler?

On certain days in the week a one-day excursion was undertaken. I can also refer, for example, to the Christmas excursion, the New Year excursion and the Easter excursion. There were excursions from Paarl and Somerset West to Cape Town, for which passengers only paid one half to a third of the normal fare. At that stage the idea of the S.A. Railways was that they would rather have a train full of passengers paying a lesser amount than coaches which were half full or empty, something which made the service not as viable as it should be. I just wonder why this policy was abandoned and whether it cannot be put into effect again. I also think of the trains running between Randburg and Springs which have many empty coaches at times other than peak hours. I trust that under these circumstances some attention will be given to that.

I also want to make an appeal on behalf of all pensioners. I wonder whether the hon. the Minister will not be able to give consideration to granting concessions to pensioners such as social pensioners, and particularly Railway pensioners who have worked for the Railways, who travel on trains. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Hillbrow asked the hon. the Minister certain questions and made certain suggestions to him concerning energy affairs, electrification, etc. I am sure the hon. the Minister will give him an adequate reply. The hon. member also referred to the Cillié Commission’s report in connection with the overcrowding of some passenger trains. This is a problem and we are also concerned about it. The hon. member may be sure that the hon. the Minister and his staff will give the necessary attention to it.

During the Second Reading debate, the hon. members for East London North and Amanzimtoti, as well as other hon. members, referred to the hon. the Minister in a rather derogatory fashion, calling him “the Minister of Inflation”. They also referred to him as “the last of the real spenders”.

The last of the big spenders.

Yes, they called him “the last of the big spenders”. However, they simply made that statement without attempting to motivate it properly. The hon. member for East London North—I see he is not in the House at the moment—said that the hon. the Minister first increased the fuel prices when he was still Minister of Economic Affairs, and now that he has become Minister of Transport Affairs, he has increased the Railway tariffs in turn to be able to pay those high fuel prices. Surely this is not a true and correct version of the facts. I think it is a gross misrepresentation of what really happened. What is the greatest increase in the Railway budget going to be used for? It is going to be used for fuel, purchases, of course, and hon. members on that side of the House know that this was inevitable. Surely it is not the hon. the Minister’s fault that it has happened. A further aspect related to this whole matter is the salaries of Railway officials. We know, however, that those hon. members are not in favour of tariffs being increased so that Railway officials can receive higher salaries. They cannot deny that, because they moved an amendment against it. More important, however, when the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs was still Minister of Economic Affairs, he was the very man who submitted that anti-inflation manifesto to South Africa He was the very man who began the struggle against inflation on behalf of the Government. He was the very man who tried to combat inflation. [Interjections.]

The hon. members on the other side have a very short memory. Already they are accusing the hon. the Minister of being the “Minister of Inflation”. I think it was extremely unreasonable of the hon. members on the other side to say that without having any proper grounds for that statement The evidence indicates that the reverse is true. The hon. the Minister has gone out of his way to try to combat inflation in South Africa. One is certainly entitled to conclude that hon. members on the other side do not pay much attention to facts and that they very easily and conveniently make unfounded allegations to suit their own purposes.

During the Second Reading debate, references were also made to the Railway staff from the benches of the hon. Opposition parties, sometimes not in very friendly terms. I think it was striking that all the hon. members on this side of the House praised the work done for South Africa by our Railway officials. [Interjections.] It is true. The hon. members cannot argue with me about this. I have read Hansard and I have also listened to the speeches. It is true that the hon. Opposition members did sometimes commend our Railway officials, but that was only to suit themselves. Their comment was not such that one could say they are unanimous in thanking our Railway people, as this side of the House has in fact been.

Their heart was not in it.

That is right. The hon. Opposition’s heart was not in it. The man who took the lead in this connection was the hon. member for East London North. He is not in the House this afternoon, so perhaps I should not refer to him. However, we hear that this hon. member is the reason why the “marriage” between the PFP and the NRP has been called off. This courtship has failed, it seems. We also understand that even if they can sort out all their differences now—the ideological and other differences—no one is prepared to have the hon. member for East London North any more. No one is prepared to have that hon. blond-headed boy any more. No one wants him. [Interjections.]

When one takes cognizance of the way in which the S.A. Railways is performing its task as a transport medium, not only on the national level, but internationally as well, it is an undeniable fact that extremely capable people must be at the head of this organization. These are men who lay down the guidelines in a purposeful manner, who ensure that this great organization operates in such a way as to ensure the greatest efficiency in the most economical way. Without the co-operation and the support of the labour force, such efficiency is not possible, of course. In spite of the remarks made by the other side of the House, to which I have already referred, I say that we on this side of the House are aware of the sacrifices made by the Railway workers and that we appreciate them. Apart from the performance of their normal daily task, however, there is ample proof of the lively interest which the Railway people take in their organization. In this connection I should like to refer, in the few minutes I have left, to the Suggestions and Inventions Scheme, which is known as the “Plans Scheme”. This has been successfully used in the S.A. Railways for many years. In terms of this scheme, employees can submit suggestions relating to matters such as improved methods of work, ways of economizing, safe operating procedures, improvement of existing equipment, etc. As an incentive, a monetary reward, as well as a certificate of merit, is issued to a person who has made a successful suggestion. From 1 June 1977, when this scheme came into operation, up to the end of November 1979, 193 suggestions were accepted and approximately R19 000 was paid out in rewards. In exchange for this, the proposals brought about a non-recurrent saving of approximately R33 000, and an annual saving of more than R56 000, for the Railways. I think this is an achievement we may justifiably be proud of. Looking at the proposals, we see that they varied from a method for recycling damaged battery cell containers to complicated improvements to aircraft spare parts, etc. The suggestions do not necessarily come from the highly trained people only, but also from those who are only ordinary employees of the Railways, those who are also doing their work with special dedication and insight. Therefore one can understand why it can justifiably be said that the S.A. Railways has the expertise, the knowledge and the competence today to play the leading role among railway organizations in Southern Africa, a role which has already opened doors for us to Africa in the past and will do so increasingly in the future.

We may rest assured that with people of this calibre, the S.A. Railways can face and meet the challenges of the ’eighties with confidence.

Mr. Chairman, as the hon. member for Verwoerdburg has already said, it was a great disappointment to us that the courtship between the NRP and the PFP did not end in a honeymoon. We were so keen for that to happen, because we reserved a special railway coach for the honeymoon trip of the PFP and the NRP. [Interjections.]

With you on Andries’s trail, I suppose!

The S.A. Railways is a national institution, a part of our national life. That is why we wanted the PFP and the NRP to have a honeymoon trip by train. We did not mean to offend them. We are truly sorry that they are not going to undertake that trip now. [Interjections.]

The 265 000 Railway people, who all form part of this great pattern, deserve our thanks and appreciation, as the hon. member for Verwoerdburg rightly said. Together, they represent more than 1 million souls in the Republic of South Africa Of course, this includes Railway pensioners. The hon. the Minister is aware of their problems. We are proud of the fact that he is our new hon. Minister of Transport Affairs and we wish him every success in his task. The more than 1 million people to whom I have just referred have a joint income of more than R1 milliard. So we may imagine the role they play in the economy of our country, especially in the light of the fact that the total revenue of the Railways is more than R3 milliard. All things considered, therefore, the Railway people are a dedicated group of people, to whom we must pay tribute.

The S.A. Railways annually transports 63 million tons of goods, 2,5 million head of livestock, 510,5 million passengers, with the exception of 13 million passengers that are transported by road. Then there are also the 3,25 million passengers conveyed by air every year. On top of that, the S.A. Airways carries cargo amounting to more than 50 000 tons every year. From this it is clear that the primary transport function of the S.A. Railways plays a strategic key role in South African national life. However, it extends beyond our country’s borders.

We are especially appreciative of the dynamic role played by the General Manager of the S.A. Railways in keeping open the routes to our neighbouring States. Paging through the latest annual report of the S.A. Railways, I read in it that we are also undertaking four separate freight transport services to Lesotho. These are road transport services, of course. These four services carry 12 500 tons of goods and 613 200 passengers every year. I hope the UN is taking cognizance of this. The UN should take cognizance of what the S.A. Railways and its General Manager are doing in this connection. The General Manager is keeping open for us the routes to our neighbouring States, and he is helping South Africa to carry its exports to unprecedented heights. He and his top management are the people who negotiate overseas loans for us. They are truly ambassadors for the Republic of South Africa. We convey our special thanks to them for that.

However, it is the ordinary railwayman and woman in particular to whom we want to pay tribute today.

In this splendid annual report I was struck by the beautiful drawing on page 73. In this drawing we see a beautifully streamlined train …

It is not a train. It is an aircraft.

It is a beautifully streamlined train, with its sharp nose, its oblong eyes and its horn on top. [Interjections.]

It is a Boeing. [Interjections.]

I must say this is a very beautiful train indeed. [Interjections.]

But it is an aircraft. [Interjections.]

Now I want to ask the hon. the Minister and the General Manager of the S.A. Railways why they do not also make our diesel locomotives as streamlined as this. They should paint our diesel locomotives in brighter colours, too, so that they may be splendid with their horns and shrill whistles, so that they may speed across our plains and show everyone what can be done. [Interjections.] Of course, such a diesel locomotive would make mincemeat out of the hon. member for Orange Grove. [Interjections.] He and I once travelled with the General Manager of the S.A. Railways on a train that was moving at 220 km an hour. Of course, we had to strap down the hon. member for Orange Grove, otherwise he would have fallen out. [Interjections.]

Now I should like to refer to the Drakensberg, the old Blue Train which at the moment is only running on Fridays from Johannesburg to Durban and on Sundays from Durban to Johannesburg.

The train was taken off the Durban-Cape Town route because it did not pay. I understand that it is now being used for tourists and special tour groups. The train has its own air-conditioning system. Why can that train not be used as a second alternative to the Blue Train between Johannesburg and Cape Town? Then it would be a means of transportation of which we may be proud. Many of our people cannot travel on the Blue Train now. In spite of the fact that it now costs 25% more to travel on this train, it is nevertheless fully booked. Return that Drakensberg to the Cape Town route.

There are many of our own people who would like to make use of it I am aware of the fact that the Drakensberg symbolizes South Africa’s mightiest mountain range with its spear-like peaks shooting into the air like the scales of an enormous dragon for hundreds of kilometres above the border of the Transvaal, Natal and the Free State. Just as compelling, awe-inspiring and romantic is the Drakensberg, on which they could also have travelled if they had wanted to. Like an enormous snake with green wings and a long tail it braves the darkest recesses of the mountain ranges, for example that tunnel of 6 023 metres. How moving it would be if this dragon, the Drakensberg, could find its way through the barren Karoo to the valleys of the Hex River Mountains. When the moonlight shines on the mountains, as white as daybreak, one sees on the rocks the “heks” of Hex River. [Interjections.] My humble plea is that we should unite the “heks” and the dragon. That would be a spectacle which would attract thousands of tourists.

Hon. members have also referred to catering services on the trains. However, they do not know the state that the catering services were in before the NP came into power. [Interjections.] Those were the days when there were no refreshments to be had on a train.

There was no food.

At every station one had to buy one’s refreshments. [Interjections.] Yes, one had to buy one’s own sandwiches. In fact, one had to bring along one’s own food basket, or otherwise one had to buy what one wanted: dinner, lunch or breakfast. For dinner one usually had to pay in advance. Only then did they give one a plate of soup, and then the main course, dessert and coffee or tea. Do hon. members know what happened, however? That soup, for which one had to pay in advance, was so hot that one could not finish it before the train left. Consequently the plate of food was left behind. [Interjections.] Such a hot plate of soup was really a good way of building profits! The passengers really had to gulp down the soup to get on the train in time. In that way, business flourished. Later on, however, people brought along blue enamel mugs and poured their soup into that. In this way, they could enjoy their main course and eat the soup later. [Interjections.]

Those were also the days when catering rights were allocated to certain individuals. There was a man, a Mr. Logan, and the person who allocated the rights to him was the then Minister of Public Works, a Mr. Siveright, and he was immediately fired by the Government [Interjections.] That was the state the catering services were in at that time. That is why one heard a lot of criticism of the Railways in that time. In this debate one heard many complaints about things that were not right. However, the increases were justified in the light of the price increases. The Minister of Transport Affairs and the top management must be congratulated on the responsible way in which they have borne this burden.

Over the past few days, we have been hearing about the technical breakthroughs and the operating achievements of the S.A. Railways. I want to congratulate them on having done such excellent work that has astonished the whole world with such a redoubtable team of people. I am referring specifically to our railway gauge of 3' 6”, while other systems have a gauge of 4' 8”. In this way, we have furnished proof of the quality of our thousands of workers who do their duty night and day, sometimes under difficult circumstances, to ensure that these services proceed uninterrupted.

While I am asking for the expansion of services, I just want to ask, too, what became of the old White Train. Can that old White Train not be used again? [Interjections.] Perhaps it is a good idea to use the old White Train for the honeymoon trip which those hon. members on that side want to undertake.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Rosettenville has spoken with great enthusiasm. He spoke about the “heks” of Hex River, and actually “oom Sporie” of the Railways delved deep into the past. He referred to the White Train and the Drakensberg and also, in the distant past, to the soup train at the beginning of the century. He stated his case with enthusiasm, and whatever he was asking for, the hon. the Minister should give him a chance and consider approving it.

Even though he supports Andries.

The hon. the Minister has replied in connection with the matter of the Durban station and made it clear that the Railways Administration will be prepared to spend the amount they would have spent on demolition for the purposes of renovation. I should like to say to him that this will obviously be greatly appreciated and that it is a matter of great concern to a number of people in Durban and also to the people who take a general interest in history.

Not everybody.

No, not everybody. Even some of my colleagues may not appreciate that. Some people say that, unless a building is 100 or 200 years old, it is not worthwhile preserving it. If that is one’s attitude, one will never have a building that is 200 years, 300 years or even 400 years old.

One fully appreciates the fact that no other obligation rests on the Administration and that the final decision on whether the station is to be retained as a monument or for some functional purpose does not lie with the hon. the Minister and his department.

The sum of R25 000 has been mentioned in this connection. One appreciates that and one would not like to look a gift horse in the mouth, but I have read of amounts of up to R100 000 being set aside for the demolition work. I take it that that figure is totally out and that that is not the situation.

The figure I have given is the estimate I have.

I am not really trying to bargain for more money. All I want to say is that the pending demolition of the building has in fact saved the Administration quite a lot of money in the past, money which would have been spent on the upkeep of the building and so on if the building as such was to have been handed over and not a piece of vacant land. From that point of view there may still be a moral obligation on the Administration.

The point I should, however, like to raise in relation to the station concerns the whole matter of a feeder line. Here again the hon. the Minister mentioned that this is a matter which has been under consideration for investigation by the Metropolitan Transport Board. I am inclined to think one should rather consider the possibility of the retention of part of the old Durban station for the purpose of a feeder line from the main line. I have written to the hon. the Minister about this and he has replied to me. I know, too, that this matter has been considered by the Durban Corporation in the past, as well as by the Administration, and that they have found that this is not justified.

The official policy at the moment is that the whole problem can be overcome by augmenting the present passenger services with bus services into town. This policy of trying to get more and more buses into town is, I believe, a grave mistake for which the city of Durban will have to pay very dearly. The hon. the Minister can say he is waiting for the outcome of the investigation, but in the final analysis it is the Administration which will have to take a decision on the question of a feeder line. I cannot imagine why anyone should like to have congestion in the centre of the city if it can be easily avoided. I am obviously not now pleading that the whole railway complex as such should be retained. Most of the lines can be broken up and most of the sheds can be taken away. All we need is a station on-the-feeder line. It worries me that this possibility is simply being written off by saying that it was investigated at one stage and that it has been decided to rely on the bus services.

I know that all that will happen is that the moment we reach a stage where that old station is completely demolished, we are going to get a larger lobby for a feeder line into town from Berea Road station or from New Durban. The hon. member for Musgrave has already asked questions about this. I have also written to the hon. the Minister about this problem, and he replied that the idea of a passenger service along the Esplanade was being investigated by the Metropolitan Transport Advisory Board. I want to warn the hon. the Minister that if one is going to rape the Esplanade and the centre of town by erecting a new railway line and a new railway station somewhere along that Esplanade, one is going to change the whole character of one of the most beautiful parts of Durban. It is all very well for the residents of Berea, Amanzimtoti or Pinetown, who live miles away, to say that they would like to have such a feeder line, but it must be taken into account that the residents along the Esplanade already have to endure a tremendously high noise level. Last year I mentioned the problem of goods lines and diesel locomotives, and I want to raise it again this year. As I have said, those residents along the Esplanade already have to endure a very high noise level. A recent survey was conducted which indicated that 90% of the railway commuters were in favour of a new feeder line. Of course the railway commuters would be in favour of it because they would only have to use this line twice a day. However, if one lives in that area and one has to be subjected to noise for 24 hours a day it is a completely different matter. One must also think of the residents who have bought flats in that area, the people who have invested their money there and the tenants who are paying high rentals in that area. Why must they be placed in a position where they will be affected by a higher noise level than they already have to endure at present? All this can be avoided if only one would use the present railway station as a link to provide a feeder line for the main line, because there would be no additional noise which would affect people in the central part of town as there are no flats where tenants could be affected. I want to plead with the hon. the Minister and his department not to let this opportunity slip through their hands and not to do something that would not be in the interests of the city and its inhabitants. I am quite convinced that if there were to be increased noise and activity emanating from a new passenger line along the Esplanade, the hon. the Minister and the Durban City Council would face something they have perhaps not bargained on, because I do not think that the public representatives and the residents of that particular area would be prepared to take this lying down.

*The hon. member for Rosettenville spoke about the old days under a previous Government, when one had to take along a basket of food on a train journey. In this connection I just want to discuss a point which has already been made. I know it is very difficult for the hon. the Minister to satisfy everyone, but I want to mention a practical example of what is happening on the S.A. Airways flights at the moment. Last year, I had to fly from Kimberley to Durban twice. When one takes off from Kimberley at ten past twelve and one is accompanied by two children over the age of twelve years, it means that they have to pay the full fare of R98, and if one travels to Kimberley from any rural town, it takes three or four hours to get to one’s destination. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I am grateful for the opportunity to say a few words in this debate. There are a few small requests I want to make and there are also a few things for which I want to convey my thanks. I think the hon. the Minister has brought warmth to transport affairs in South Africa, not excessive warmth, as when the hon. member for Rosettenville was talking about the hot soup, just comfortable warmth for everyone to be able to breathe within the transport industry of South Africa. Very pleasant intercourse has been initiated.

I was once asked something by one of my voters. I wanted to try to arouse the hon. the Minister’s sympathy, and therefore I shall apologize for the voter at the same time. When the hon. the Minister was Minister of Economic Affairs, he introduced the 70 km and 90 km speed limits. One fine evening a junior newspaper reporter was looking up the name J. C. Heunis in the telephone directory. He then came across J. C. Heunis, and this happened to be a voter of mine whom he contacted. The reporter asked this Mr. J. C. Heunis: “How do you explain these 70 km/h and 90 km/h speed limits?” He replied: “I think this is the silliest thing I ever did in my life, and it is costing me a lot of money as well. I may as well travel to Johannesburg by donkey cart, because I have to start out a week in advance in order to get there.” The hon. the Minister must forgive me for making a little joke sometimes.

Now I want to be more serious. We have a problem in Hercules with the railway line and the road to Hartebeespoort Dam. The railway line to Magaliesburg and the road to Brits cut through that area, dividing it into two, and I want to concentrate more specifically on the Lüderitz Street crossing. The Lüderitz Street crossing is closed, as are other crossings in the area—they have been closed for some years now—and this causes inconvenience to church-goers. The area from which the schools and churches in the Booysens area draw their members is of such a nature that one has to make an enormous detour to cross the line at Bremer Street in order to get to church or to school. I want to ask, therefore, that if possible, serious attention should be given to the opening of this level crossing.

I have already mentioned this to the S.A. Railways and I find that they are always very eager to co-operate and very ready to listen to one’s problems. I was told that it is very difficult to achieve synchronization between the boom and the lights where the road and the railway line are so close to each other. Years ago we expected a sub-way to be built there, but since this is apparently no longer practicable, I do want to ask that we should give serious attention to the Lüderitz Street crossing. I even had to explain to a church council one night what the problem was.

Another small problem is the extension of the platform at Daspoort Station. We still cannot quite accept that the platform there cannot be extended. If it is at all possible, in order to eliminate friction, we should very much prefer to have the commuters and the people who get off at Daspoort Station to work in the Hermanstad industrial area to be taken to their places of work via Moot Street and not directly through the residential area. We should be very glad, therefore, if attention could be given to this matter as well.

I have looked at item 457 in the Brown Book, which provides for the extension of platforms. R250 000 is allowed for that, but I do not find anything which is going to be spent on this station. Perhaps it is included in this.

There is another matter I should like to raise, and this is actually on behalf of the general public travelling by train. People have complained to me that because of the wonderful service they want to render, the staff often simply knock at the door and then walk in, and this is upsetting. Some of my hon. colleagues have also complained about this in the past. I have wondered whether the same procedure cannot be followed as on the Blue Train. I do not think it would be very expensive. In the case of the Blue Train one simply presses a button when one wants something, and then someone comes to serve one. In any event, this could perhaps be improved at a very small cost.

I also want to convey my sincere thanks to the hon. the Minister for the railway network in Pretoria, for which almost R44 million has been appropriated this year. We are already ahead of the programme. We are grateful for the fact that while it was said in 1974 that we would have progressed to a certain stage by 1980, the work has reached a much more advanced stage. I just want to thank the hon. the Minister for having accommodated us there. We understand the seriousness of the fact that the transport system in Pretoria, especially since it involves so many commuters from the homelands, is intended to convey all these people by rail as far as possible. Road traffic, including the big heavy buses, can then be reduced and frustrations can also be removed on the part of the commuters, who have to travel for hours by road to get home or to get to work from home. I also want to request that attention be given to the question of distribution from Hercules, from where the employees have to travel in easterly and westerly directions. In respect of Pretoria North, large amounts are being appropriated for the distribution of commuters. At Belle Ombre in the city there will also be a distribution point, but I am afraid that there is no easy access in Hercules to the east side of Hercules station, while Hercules station has to serve as distribution point for the Moot area. By improving the access, one could greatly reduce the road traffic and convey as many people as possible by rail. I want to conclude by saying that I also take cognizance of the large amount which is still outstanding with regard to future extensions to and expansions of railway works in Pretoria, and I want to request that this be done as soon as possible in order to provide for the speedier transportation of travellers.

Mr. Chairman, over the past few days the hon. the Minister’s train has travelled far and wide through our country and stopped at many places. I know that many of our members have a need to discuss many different matters. I think it is a great pity that more of our farmers did not board the train, shake the Minister’s hand and express their sincere gratitude for what the S.A. Railways has also done for the agricultural producer in South Africa. I am boarding the train because I too want to make a few comments on the increase in rates for the conveyance of livestock by rail or by road. It is true that, after the hon. the Minister has made his Second Reading speech, one always watches the newspapers to see what comments have been made in them, and this year I looked specifically at what comment experts on transport affairs would make on the increase in rates for the conveyance of livestock. I read the comments made by Dr. Van den Berg, the president of the Afrikaanse Handelsinstituut, Dr. Prinsloo of the Department of Transport Economy of the University of Stellenbosch, and other persons. I noted that almost all of them referred to the relatively small increase in the transport rates for livestock. I quote from a report in which Mr. Chris Cilliers, Director of the S.A. Agricultural Union was reported as follows—

When the hon. the Minister announced the increased rates he said that the tariffs rates being increased by only 10% and 12,5%, and in that way he gave us an indication that in reality it was a fair and reasonable increase. I believe that if one wants to be fair and reasonable and wants to examine these increases with an open mind, one must agree with the hon. the Minister and be grateful that the increases did not amount to 15% and 20% for example. If one takes into account that even after the proposed increases of 10% and 12,5%, the Railways covers only 69,7% of its total costs for the conveyance of large stock and only 57,6% of the total costs for the conveyance of small stock, and also notes that it is far more profitable for the S.A. Railways to convey iron-ore or coal, for example, in the same trucks, one cannot but concede that the Railways is rendering an exceptionally inexpensive service to the farming community in South Africa and one cannot but take cognizance with great appreciation of the wonderful service the Railways is rendering to the agricultural producer in South Africa.

As one pages through the splendid annual report of the General Manager, one becomes aware of the fact that the Railways is indeed a national enterprise which is rendering an indispensable service to the South African farmer. One can truly say that if ever there was an organization which was really the friend of the South African agricultural producer, the farmer, it is the South African Railways.

If one examines the particulars of the increases introduced over the past few years, it becomes evident that there were quite high increases of, 50% and 60% for example, during the years 1973, 1974 and 1976. During the past few years this trend has declined considerably, to such an extent that even last year there was no increase in the rates for the conveyance of livestock. One is really very grateful for that, because it is true that the farmers, the cattle farmers in particular, are labouring under the tremendous burdens of increasing production and marketing costs, although there is no parallel increase in the price of the product This hits the farmers in the remote areas in particular, the obvious areas in which a tremendous depopulation has taken place in recent years. It is also true, I believe, that in recent months the Cabinet has examined the position of the farmers in those areas with exceptional attention and understanding. That is why I am participating in this debate today, and I wanted to ask the hon. the Minister not to apply the 10% and 12,5% increases to those remote areas, but I believe, and I have ascertained this for myself too, that it is legally impossible to do that On the other hand I also wanted to ask the hon. the Minister instead to abolish completely the 10% and 12,5% increases on the conveyance of livestock for the whole country today. The revenue from the conveyance of livestock amounted to R11 476 425 during the past year. This is a very small percentage of the total revenue of the Railways. The loss suffered by the Railways on the conveyance of livestock falls into the same category as uneconomic socio-economic services, and therefore I believe it is fair and reasonable for me to ask for the conveyance of livestock to be subsidized.

Mr. Chairman, I find it rather difficult to follow other hon. members’ examples of pleading for railway facilities in their constituencies in view of the fact that the railway in Sea Point was closed down in 1929, and I am not going to ask that it be re-opened. I just want to put to the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs that there was a railway line in Sea Point. I think it is an interesting historical phenomenon and it has had some effect on the town planning of both Green Point and Sea Point. I think it would be of interest both from an historical and a tourist point of view for the Railways to establish where that old line ran and perhaps to go back to their workshops to see whether there are some old station signs of that line lying around. They could display those. Alternatively, the Railways could consider putting a plaque on the Sea Point promenade indicating that one of the stations on the line was situated there, and perhaps at the end of the line in the area of Saunders Rocks they could place a plaque in bronze or in some metal cast in the Railway workshops to tell the story of when the line was opened and when it was closed. Perhaps a model or photographs of one of the trains which were used at that time could also be displayed there. I think in the general nature of things, people the world over are looking for some reminiscences of the past. To the extent that the line was an important element in the life of Green Point and Sea Point I would ask that the hon. the Minister would consider just commemorating that line by way of some interesting historical and tourist feature.

I want to deal with one or two other matters relating to the Western Cape. I would like to say that we are delighted that a significant sum of money has been put on the estimates for the improvement of the suburban services. It is a recognition that those services are not satisfactory. We are also particularly pleased with the announcement that the Government is now going to proceed with a guaranteed line as far as Atlantis. While one is pleased that this is going to take place, I want to echo some of the views expressed by the hon. member for Vasco. We are entirely satisfied with the limited kind of line which is going to be built to Atlantis, but certainly in any forward planning we should take certain other matters into account. In the first place the location of Atlantis was always in dispute. Some wanted the axis of Coloured development in the Kraaifontein-Klapmuts area, while others believed that that was too close to Cape Town, but the decisive factor from a regional planning point of view was that it was on the Cape Town-Saldanha Bay development axis. That is why Atlantis was located in its present position. We believe it is necessary not just to have a feeder line to Cape Town, but from any long-term planning point of view also to link up a line from Cape Town to Saldanha via Atlantis. If it is in fact going to be a growth point on that new axis, we believe provision should be made for extending communications direct through Atlantis to Saldanha, otherwise Atlantis will look inwards towards Cape Town all the time. It will in fact become an extension of the metropolitan area rather than a viable growth point for the West Coast area.

Secondly, as the hon. member for Vasco also pointed out, it is always contemplated that when Atlantis is fully developed something approaching 60% of the working population will be working in the greater metropolitan area of Cape Town; 58,7%. Projections have been made ever since 1973 by committees which included representatives of the Railways, which found that it was imperative to plan ahead and to contemplate a railway line which would also carry passengers. It is absolutely essential if it is going to be a viable community, and all the circumstances indicate that it is going to be increasingly difficult to rely exclusively or primarily on road traffic. I do not have the time to give all the figures now. The hon. the Minister has them all available. Provision should be made, however, for passenger services; if not now, then definitely in the very near future.

Further in this connection, all the commissions that have investigated this matter indicate that there is a bottleneck area for transportation as one comes through what is known as the White suburbs of Bothasig, Milnerton, Blouberg Strand and Table View, and that it will not be possible to convey the some 60 000 workers coming into this area daily by making use of road transportation only. Therefore, at this stage provision should not only be made for long-term planning for the railway line from Chempet to Atlantis to carry passengers, but specific provision should also be made for the alleviation of the pressure on the bottleneck area into Culemburg and Cape Town stations.

Next, I should like to touch briefly on the question of the railway line to Mitchell’s Plain. We have argued for this for some considerable time. The railway line should not end at Mitchell’s Plain, but it should also go through to Strandfontein, and the estimates indicate that this work is well under way. The importance of this line going through to Strandfontein is that it will open up the whole of the Strandfontein coast to something approaching 750 000 people who require additional seaside amenities fed by rapid transportation. The existing amenities in the Peninsula tend to be overcrowded. We believe they should be made available to everybody. Quite clearly, a direct railway link with Strandfontein, I believe, will lead to the acceleration of the development of Strandfontein as a high-density seaside resort for the people living on the Cape Flats. What I believe the hon. the Minister should tell us today is when that railway line is going to be opened.

People of Mitchell’s Plain—I spoke to three of them only this morning—are anxious to know when they will be able to have a direct rail link. At the moment their cost to get into town is something like R2 a day, by bus and by bus and by bus or by bus and by bus and by train. We should like the hon. the Minister to announce as soon as he can when the Mitchell’s Plain railway line will be opened and what the fares are going to be for the people already living in the Mitchell’s Plain area.

A problem does arise, however. That is the linking up of the Mitchell’s Plain railway line with another line at Nyanga/Mannenberg station. From all the other evidence I have before me, newspaper reports and the discussions I have had with individuals, the railway station at Nyanga is in absolute chaos. There are just far too many people who cannot get either access or egress. The result of this hopeless overcrowding of that particular railway station is that mugging and pickpocketing and assaults and various other crimes are rife. What worries us is how the link-up is going to take place with the Mitchell’s Plain railway line, and we should like to be satisfied by the hon. the Minister that the additional volume of traffic which is going to flow in towards Cape Town, linking up with the line at Nyanga, will provide some means of preventing the further overcrowding of what is already a very dangerously overcrowded line.

I should like to deal with other aspects of overcrowding too. I want to switch from that, however, for a minute or two in order to deal with matters closer to my constituency. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether he or his department has started giving any consideration to the proposals made by Mr. Gawie Fagan, a Cape Town architect, for the rejuvenation of the old Victoria Basin. The impact of containerization on the one hand, and of the decline of passenger traffic flowing through Cape Town harbour on the other hand, has made big parts of the Victoria Basin redundant for the purposes of seaborne traffic. Plans produced by this architect, who is also a keen yachtsman, are for the revitalizing of Victoria Basin and of parts near the oil depot. I believe that they deserve investigation in order to see whether this part could not be rejuvenated in the same way as the Fisherman’s Wharf was rejuvenated in the dockland area of San Francisco, a place where there could not only be small ships harboured, but where there could also be shipworks, marine related shops and, of course, also sea food restaurants. I therefore ask the hon. the Minister whether he would at least look at these plans to see whether they perhaps merit further consideration.

Finally, on a less cheerful note, let me tell the hon. the Minister that I believe that he must make a definitive statement about whether or not there is apartheid in the main concourse of the Adderley Street railway station. Every report we have had has been leading to what I believe is a “kwetsende” situation. This comes from both the Afrikaans-and English-language Press. The fact is that the apartheid boards have come down, but there seems to be a degree of hypocrisy in all this. If one has a ticket to go through the first-class barrier, whether one is Black or White, one can go through. When one wants to purchase that ticket, however, there is a difference. If one is White one has no problem and if one is a light-skinned Coloured one apparently does not have any problem either. If one is a dark-skinned Coloured, however, one runs the risk of the ticket official telling one to go across the top deck to purchase a ticket on the other side. I do not have time to read all these statements, but there is one by Mr. Heckroodt of the Railways who says that this is, in fact, the case. He says that whilst they have access to the station, the real place where Coloureds should buy their tickets is on the other side.

I have not seen those statements.

Then I must quote them briefly. He says he does not want to refer to further statements, but adds—

[Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Sea Point devoted part of his speech to a plea for the establishment and stimulation of certain growth facilities here in the Western Cape and I am able to support him in that part of his speech. However, the latter part of his speech left an evil-smelling trail in its wake on this peaceful afternoon in this House. It was explained clearly during the Second Reading debate, and repeatedly during the Committee Stage, that one of the proud records of the S.A. Railways is that racial friction has been restricted to a minimum. However, now that hon. member has come forward again with racial agitation.

Now he is not even listening.

Yes, the hon. member is not even listening. This side of the House is usually accused of having an obsession about race.

No, we are merely asking for an explanation.

However, I want to reverse the accusation. The sooner they remove the racial connotation from their arguments, the better it will be for all the population groups in South Africa. [Interjections.] Just to demonstrate to that hon. member that this side of the House has a balanced attitude to the ethnic situation in South Africa, I shall come back to this matter at a later stage of my speech.

There is a central theme in this whole debate. Various hon. members mentioned the role of the S.A. Railways in the South African economy, and I want to link up with this theme, but from another angle. The growth and stabilization of a strong middle-class is not only of economic importance, but is also a top political priority. Economists and military strategists accept that in the long term a stable middle-class is the only effective bulwark against communist expansionism. Now the question I want to ask this afternoon during this Committee Stage is the following: What is important for the formation of a middle-class and what is the role of the Railways in the formation of such a middle-class? The interests of a middle-class centre on those things which offer it security. The interests of a member of the middle-class revolve around his home, his job, his social service conditions and pension conditions—these things that are meaningful for him to be able to defend the structure within which he operates. Let us not overlook the importance of these social matters. What has happened in Rhodesia? The first thing that is being done to ensure peace, order and stability is to guarantee social pensions. Because the Railways is so important in the formation of a middle-class, it is important for us in this Committee to examine the share of the S.A. Railways in the stabilization of a middle-class.

If we examine the figures we see that approximately 10% of the total White population, and 8% of the total Black population outside the homelands, are directly linked financially to the S.A. Railways. A total of 100 000 White families and 151 000 non-Whites are directly dependent on the Railways for their livelihood. These families, Railway families, socially stable middle-class families, are the basic foundation stones of an orderly society. Specific values and qualities of life are adhered to and developed in these Railway families. Virtually every occupation and trade are represented on the Railways, which means that the Railway employees are represented in almost every branch of the national economy.

Over the years the Railways has contributed to the building of a stable middle-class. Let me give examples. In 1948 the total wage account of the S.A. Railways was R109 million. Today the total wage account is R1 100 million. In 1947 the average per capita income of the White workers on the Railways was R930 per annum. Today the average per capita income of the White Railway worker is R7 600 per annum. This indicates that in this way, too, the Railways has systematically contributed to the building up of a stable middle-class.

The single major investment in the life of the average man is the acquisition of a house. Since 1937 R900 million has been spent through the various schemes of the Railways on building 68 000 houses for Railway officials. The conditions of service of the Railways can be equalled, but cannot be bettered. Over the years the Sick Fund has been developed into a fund comparable with the best in this country. In addition the pension benefits have been increased and adjusted over the years. As the cost of living went up the pensions have been adjusted.

The improvement in the conditions of service of Railway officials is a success story which could keep me occupied for a very long time, but I should also like to turn specifically to another matter. For the sake of equilibrium and perspective I also want to state that 151 000 Black officials are in the employ of the Railways. For the same reasons that apply to the White officials, the building of a stable middle-class in the Black community is of importance to South Africa. Now—and I have not yet heard this said during this debate—I want to thank the hon. the Minister for the steps he has taken to effect the salary adjustments between White and non-White officials in such a way that the wage gap is being narrowed according to a fixed scale. I believe this is a step on which this House could congratulate the hon. the Minister. However, I feel that we should not attend to the wages only, but that we should also examine the conditions of service of the Black, Coloured and Indian officials and place them on a par with those of the Whites.

Next I should also like to touch on another facet. Housing schemes exist for the Black, Coloured and Indian officials, but these schemes have not really become viable yet. I think we should ask the hon. the Minister to request the Management to launch a dynamic housing programme in order to propagate home-ownership among the Black workers. In this way the S.A. Railways, as the national transport organization, could also contribute to the stabilization and the development of a sound middle-class. I want to conclude by saying that I come from a Railway household … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the matter I want to discuss today links up with and deals with the very people about whom the hon. member for Bellville spoke so well. The matter I should like to discuss concerns items 10, 26, 88 and 656 appearing in the Brown Book. These items concern the Mabopane commuter project, in which my constituency has a major and direct interest The Mabopane commuter project is probably the biggest single commuter project that the Railways has undertaken during the past decade. It is a project which provides for the daily transportation of approximately 42 000 commuters, i.e. this project will entail approximately 25 million passenger journeys per annum. It is a project which will have cost the S.A. Railways approximately R131 million on completion. It is a project which in itself is a small part of the total commuter industry of the S.A. Railways, which has to cope with the transportation of approximately 650 million commuters per annum. If one calculates this on the basis of a working day, it amounts to approximately two million commuters per day who have to be transported by the Railways. This is an enormous industry and is most certainly a very important link in the total political, economic and strategic plan of the Republic and this Government. If I look back over the years since the beginning of this project, in the mid-’seventies, I can only express my sincere gratitude, on behalf of the voters of Wonder-boom, to the hon. the Minister, and the staff of the Railways in particular, for the great zeal with which they are tackling this project, to such an extent that the time scales laid down by the Railways in 1977 are still valid at present, despite the advanced stage of this project. For the purposes of the record I think it is as well for me to repeat these time scales. Phase 1 entails the provision of a double line from Mabopane to Winternest and the staging facilities at Wolmerton which will be completed by December 1980. Phase 2: A further two lines from Hercules to Wintersnest and the Belle Ombre station in December 1982, and final completion by 1983. This means that as early as December 1980 it will be possible to introduce a commuter service from Mabopane to the Pretoria station.

In the second place we wish to convey our sincere thanks to the hon. the Minister and his staff for the opportunity we are afforded from year to year to go and see for ourselves how this project is progressing. When one stands before one’s voters it is so gratifying if one can speak with first-hand knowledge and report to them on a matter which is of great importance to people of the area. We express our sincere gratitude to the hon. the Minister and his staff in this regard.

Now I should like to make an appeal to the hon. the Minister, which I believe is probably a difficult one. I want to know from the hon. the Minister whether it would not be possible, in view of the expected economic revival that we may experience, to advance the completion date of this entire project a little. We are not speaking of years; perhaps only a few months.

I should like to make this request from two points of view; the one is from the economic point of view and the second one, which in my opinion is very important, is from an inter-race relations point of view. It is because of these viewpoints that I should like to make the request Surely it is a generally recognized fact that commuters, the people whom the hon. member for Bellville discussed, make a very important contribution to the economy of Pretoria and the State as such, viz. in the business enterprise sector and in the industrial sector at Rosslyn, Koedoespoort, etc. They are making this contribution in a very responsible way despite the present extremely inconvenient and ineffective transport facilities. I say with great responsibility, for during the 1976 riots there was almost no absenteeism among the people of this area, and in Rosslyn in particular there was no absenteeism whatsoever. I think it is important for us to meet these people halfway.

In the sphere of relations there is a great measure of goodwill towards the Whites, as well as towards the Government among the Black people in this area. I come back to the 1976 riots. We are aware that a considerable number of buses were set alight and destroyed. I think it is even understandable that if people have to get up at 4 o’clock in the morning to come to work, arrive home at 9 o’clock and even have to spend some nights at the bus terminus to be in time for the bus the following morning to go to work, that the bus would be a source of frustration to the radicals and the militants.

However, I think we should look at the other side of the picture, the people with goodwill. The other side of the picture is that during the riots a considerable number of Black people came out of this area—so I was told—to protect the schoolchildren, who were waiting for school buses in the morning on the Soutpan Road, from that radical element. This is the goodwill displayed by the Blacks in that area towards the Whites.

I think that if we introduce the new commuter service it would make no contribution to the solution of this problem if the time spent on the journey from Mabopani to the city centre cannot be reduced. We are aware that there are many stations along the way at which commuters will have to alight, but of this number of 42 000 there are approximately 30 000 who have to travel directly to Pretoria or to the eastern area. We are asking whether it would not be possible to examine the possibility of an express service, even at this early stage. I am not referring now to the possible 180 km per hour service, but to an express service which will be able to convey these people from Mabopane to Pretoria or the eastern areas in the minimum space of time.

Finally, I want to say that among hundreds of my voters in this area, the neighbours of these Black people, there is tremendous goodwill towards the Black people and the Government. They are all Nationalists. There is goodwill, despite the plundering and theft in that area and the fact that their only access road is the Soutpan Road to Pretoria and that the traffic situation there is very dangerous and inconvenient as a result of the hundreds of buses which make use of that road at peak hours in the mornings and evenings. It is the only road along which hundreds of primary and high school children can come to their schools, and despite this there is a great measure of goodwill. I know that one will never be able to satisfy the radical, militant element However, I merely want to ask whether attention cannot be given to this situation.

Mr. Chairman, I am pleased that the hon. member for Durban Central has come into the House, because I am going to get on the band wagon this afternoon and speak about the Durban Station. In doing so, I want to give the hon. the Minister a bit of advice if he is not already aware of his position in this particular case. My advice to him is just to stick to his offer to give the city council R20 000 in lieu of demolishing the building and to say no more about it.

I thought you would be coming to my side some time.

The controversy as to whether the old Durban Station should be retained as a national monument, has two sides to it. There are those, like my colleague and also the hon. member for Musgrave, who, like my wife, believe that it should be preserved. Then there are those like myself who do not look upon the old Durban Station as a great historical monument which should be preserved. Had they been talking about demolishing the city hall or the post office, that would have been a different matter as far as I am concerned. I think that with regard to the station, that is something which the people of Durban should settle, possible through a referendum or something of that kind.

[Inaudible.]

Mr. Chairman, may I just say that the people of Durban are arguing as to whether the station should be preserved or not and if so, who is going to pay for it. The ratepayers are already arguing about that. The suggestion which my colleague made, however, that a spur off between Berea Station and the new station should be laid, is a practical proposition. I am not suggesting for one moment that the station buildings themselves should be retained, but there is space for a platform parallel to Soldiers’ Way, where the tracks are at present located. In fact, I should think that it would just mean the extention of one of the existing platforms just so that a commuter train from, e.g. the south coast, could end up in this Durban spur. I believe that in future, trains ending their journeys at the Berea Station, will still have to proceed to the new Durban Station in order to turn around. If it should come into a spur, at the old station site as I have suggested, it would actually turn itself around by reversing out of the suggested spur and up the North Coast and thereby be ready for its return journey down the South Coast There is, of course, a financial implication to this, because this property, as a result of the switch-over of land, now belongs to the Durban city council. If the people of Natal want to retain a spur in the centre of Durban there will have to be new negotiations with the city council. I see the hon. the Minister is rubbing his fingers. I know that he will now ask who is going to pay for that land. There are many sides to this problem. I should like to say to the hon. the Minister, in my capacity as representative of an upper south coast constituency, that the south coast commuters are much concerned about having to disembark from the trains at Berea Road Station, because many of them work right in the centre of town, and they do not feel that this is very convenient I can see that in future pressure is going to be brought to bear on the Minister to provide some link closer to the centre of town. However, the people of Durban have a choice to make. Either they are going to pay for the extra spur which has been suggested by my hon. colleague, a suggestion which has been slightly modified by me in concept, or else the spur will have to go around the Esplanade, which is in my colleague’s constituency. The point I want to make is that all this indicates that there is a great need for long-term planning. For example, problems are starting to arise in the case of the upper South Coast, and I want to make the hon. the Minister aware of them.

At the little station of Illovo Beach, which is situated in a small White seaside community, one will find that trains which travel up and down the South Coast early in the morning and late at night, and which stop at this station, are laden with Blacks coming from the Imnini and Umfumi Reserves in the area between Karridene and Umkomaas. They use this station, firstly because to go further south to the station at Umgababa, which incidently, is a Black coastal resort with big development taking place for Black tourists, would mean that they would have to pay a slightly higher fare, and therefore they use one station closer to their destinations, which are usually in the Durban area. The second reason is that the only access road to the Imnini and Umfumi Reserves is at Karridene. Two factors are therefore involved in this respect, namely access to the station and fares.

I can refer to two other places where a similar situation can arise, namely at Inchange and at Harrison stations on the Pinetown-Cato Ridge line. The station at Inchanga is situated in another small White community. A few kilometres from this village of Inchanga, a large Black community is developing at a place called Fredville. Close by is the station of Harrison, which is the next station along the line. At Inchanga the Blacks disembark from and embark on the commuter train going to Pinetown. As a result of this there are hundreds, if not thousands, of Blacks passing through this little station daily and walking or catching buses to the African area of Fredville three to five kilometres away, whereas it would probably be far more convenient for them to embark and disembark at Harrison, the next station along the line. I want to make a suggestion to the hon. the Minister. Perhaps people using the Umgababa station, which is essentially a station used by Blacks, and those using the Illovo Beach station, which is essentially a station used by Whites, could be charged the same fare. If this could also be done in respect of Inchanga and Harrison, one may find that a large number of Blacks would then disembark from the train at Harrison, which is closer to their homes. This would prevent the great burden being imposed on the little stations at Illovo Beach and at Inchanga. This is a matter of planning, and I appeal to the hon. the Minister to ask people in his planning department to look at these two sets of stations and to apply their minds to it. I see a great deal of development starting in the Inchanga, Harrison, Cato Ridge and Hammersdale areas. I believe it was the hon. the Minister who said a few years ago, when he was still the Minister of Economic Affairs, that possibly the area of Cato Ridge should be expanded or developed industrially to make better use of existing labour concentrations and facilities, etc.

I spoke to the Chamber of Industries in Pietermaritzburg.

This is now starting. I can foresee the day when that whole complex is going to be a major city. I know that the Department of Environmental Planning and the Natal Town and Regional Planning Commission are working on this. If the Railways are not already involved in it, I believe they should become involved. They must determine what is happening in this particular area. I am thinking in terms of long-term planning for the next 15 to 20 years when thousands of people will be living in those areas. There is already a Black town at Hammarsdale called Upumlanga where there are at present almost 60 000 Blacks living and which is developing by the year, with more and more houses. At the Fredville area between Inchanga and Cato Ridge there are shocking conditions as far as Black living conditions are concerned. Water, transportation and work are close by so I can foresee another big Black city developing in the Fredville area close to Cato Ridge. For this reason, transportation and the price of fuel being what it is today, I believe the Railways should make it their business, on the South Coast and the Cato Ridge area, to become involved with the Department of Planning, as well as the Town and Regional Planning Commission of Natal, to make sure that the problems which will arise in the future are adequately catered for, even at this early stage.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Amanzimtoti who has just resumed his seat, made earnest pleas on behalf of Natal, especially Durban.

You must speak on behalf of the Southern Cape.

Yes, I am going to speak on behalf of the Southern Cape now. I trust that the hon. the Minister will see what he can do for the hon. member for Amanzimtoti. Today we heard about the numerous achievements of the S.A. Railways, and I want to associate myself with the tribute that has already been paid to them.

I should like to argue a little with the Minister and his Administration, and I know the hon. the Minister likes a challenge.

Especially at Oudtshoorn.

If we move through South Africa, especially through the platteland …

Especially Oudtshoorn.

Especially Oudtshoorn. If we move through South Africa, we find several stations that have been closed or are on the point of being closed. Where previously one found several Railway houses, or fairly large Railway communities, today there are several houses that have been closed or demolished. It is true that the service on some sections has been reduced, and in some cases there is a big question-mark hanging over the continued existence of that section. These services were introduced because they provided for the needs of a community. It may be argued that the depopulation of the platteland is the main reason for reducing or eliminating a service of this kind, but it is equally true on the other hand, that in spite of the depopulation of the platteland, there has been an increase in agricultural production as well as an increase in industrial development in many of these areas of the platteland. In other words, more freight has to be transported now, a larger tonnage. The difference is that it was not so difficult to market these products in the past. Some areas in the platteland did not have any export products. Under these circumstances the S.A. Railways could keep pace in the platteland and the existing sections at the time were profitable. In addition, that the roads were poor and vehicles fairly slow. It was the improvement in the latter in particular, and the new and more stringent demands made by marketing, that weakened the Railways’ position in the platteland and placed the Railways in a poor competitive position. Now we find that roads, especially mountain passes, have been improved. Distances have become shorter, the vehicles on our roads have become larger and faster and the Railways—I do not think it can be denied—has lost clients and revenue. We find that whilst a road has to be rebuilt, improved and shortened a second or even a third time, the railway line always follows the same route. I want to concede that the speed has been increased here and there by means of electrification and dieselization but the product can still reach the market and the consumer more rapidly by road. This means a better price, which in turn cancels out the high fuel price. Now the Administration’s standpoint is that a section should pay for itself and that it should not be subsidized by other sections. When this does not happen, such a service is either curtailed or suspended. Nevertheless, it is a definite business principle that a branch office is not simply closed down before a thorough investigation has been made. It is in this regard that I want to address a plea to the hon. the Minister and the Administration, a plea for an investigation into better, shorter connections. When a branch line has been fulfilling a need for a period of 40 or 50 years, it does not go without saying that it has to keep on fulfilling for the same needs in more modern times. In modern times, when the emphasis is being placed on time and speed, it no longer serves its purpose. I therefore want to ask the Administration to put an investigating team at the disposal of communities in which these bottlenecks are being experienced, an investigating team to consider and investigate new possibilities and possible solutions. Without going into more detail, I want to refer to the Southern Cape today.

All hon. members from the Southern Cape are present at the moment.

Yes, all the hon. members from the Southern Cape are here. I want to refer to the Southern Cape, and in the same breath I want to say that we are very grateful for the fine airport which the Southern Cape has been given. We are grateful for the improved services which that airport offers us. However, now I want to ask something. When I refer to the Southern Cape, I am thinking, for instance of the beautiful Garden Route, the Little Karoo and the Langkloof. It is extremely unfair to expect the development association to spend thousands of rands on an investigation, whilst the Administration is surely empowered to take a more in-depth look at proposals …

Exactly.

… and to provide a better, more rapid service to the area concerned. Today I want to tell the hon. the Minister and the Railways Administration that we want to co-operate. We do not want to prescribe. We want to co-operate in order to help bring the railway services in the area concerned into line with modern practices and modern demands. That is why I am asking that services should not be curtailed and suspended, that it is not simply said that people do not want to support the services. We want to support the services. The platteland wants to support the services. But, give us too a service to get our products to the market more quickly.

Exactly.

I also want to ask that we should not be told to take the responsibility for the freight. I ask for people to be put at our disposal so that we can talk to them and make plans with them. Although the services originally served a purpose, I believe that they will become white elephants if we are not prepared to make modifications, with regard to the platteland as well. I trust that the hon. the Minister will give me a good reply to this.

Mr. Chairman, a while ago an hon. member said here that Railway employees vote for the NP, upon which an hon. member of the Opposition remarked that they are stupid. I really do not think he said that with any malicious intent. However, I want to challenge his statement by saying that in my opinion, the Railways employs some of the smartest people in South Africa today. These are people who are in the forefront as far as planning is concerned at this stage. They are the ones who set the pace for the development which is taking place at the moment.

In this budget the hon. the Minister proved that he has the interests of the country, as well as those of the Railway employees, at heart. One receives the impression of teamwork, with the General Manager as the planner and captain of the team. However, he is not the only one who scores tries. Due to his good passing tactics, every member of the team has a chance to score. Good training, motivation and planning are the reasons for their success. They realize that their greatest asset is the people in their employ. The duty of the General Manager is to make the best use of the talents of these people once they have received the best training. Everyone in the S.A. Railways has an indispensable task to carry out, and the hon. the Minister must have a reliable, well-trained team to put his plans into action. We see the best example of this in the long-distance transportation which has recently been introduced in the Railways. I think that this long-distance transportation takes place chiefly from the Transvaal to Port Elizabeth, Sishen and Richards Bay. These are trains with 210 trucks each, which mean a great deal more traffic on the same railway line. This has been made possible by the modern air-braked system which has replaced the vacuum brakes on the old trains. The old vacuum-braked trains could consist of a maximum of 30 to 50 trucks. The demand for traffic is expected to double over the following 20 years. That is why the Railways saw fit to investigate the possibility of running these long air-braked trains on most of the main-line routes in the Republic. These trains are more than one kilometre long and every truck can carry eight tons of coal. The outcome of the investigation is expected shortly.

We can be very proud of the coal-exporting project from Ermelo to Richards Bay. This is a great achievement for the Railways. At the moment 21,5 million tons of coal are being transported from Ermelo to Richards Bay every year, which means that 13 of these long trains traverse this stage every day with 80 tons of coal per truck. It is interesting to know that the high-speed loading facilities are used at the start in the Transvaal and it takes a mere 3 hours to load such a train. To unload the entire train at the other end, takes a mere 3½ hours. These coal trains travel a distance of 540 km, and this distance is covered within 17 hours. One cannot but consider this a very great achievement on the part of the Railways. At the end of 1978 it was decided—and it was approved too—to transport 40 million tons of export coal per annum along this stage instead of 20 million tons. In order to accomplish this, it was decided that the project would be carried out in two phases. The goal for 1983 is 30 million tons per annum and for 1986 it is 44 million tons per annum. In order to accomplish this, the line between the two above-mentioned points must be improved. Firstly, the gradient must be improved for this distance of more than 500 km. At the moment the gradient is 1:66 and it must be decreased 1:140 or perhaps 1:160. Secondly, a twin single line must be built between these points. Thirdly, the yard at Ermelo has to be remodelled and those at Vryheid East and Richards Bay must be improved. The estimated costs involved in these improvements are R350 million. Then improvements must also be made at the loading point and the harbour. Tremendously long distances are involved here and there is a great deal of traffic running between these two points. I do not know much about this, but as far as my knowledge goes, the trains running from Ermelo to Richards Bay are all full, but they return empty. I simply want to know whether there is not a possibility of a certain percentage, or a larger percentage, of the trucks being loaded with freight for the return journey. If this is the case, I should like to know how many of the trucks are carrying freight on the return journey at present, and which percentage this comprises. Then, I should like to know whether there is a good connecting line from Ermelo to the Rand in order to get the freight to the Rand or to Johannesburg.

I want to thank the Administration for expanding facilities in this regard. The original plan was to transport 20 million tons of coal per annum, but now the transportation of 40 million tons is already being planned. We say thank you very much for the additional facilities which are going to be created in order to facilitate this project. On behalf of the people in Natal and the Eastern Transvaal, I want to wish the hon. the Minister, the General Manager and his entire staff the best of luck with this fine project and to thank them for it.

Mr. Chairman, I can associate myself very sincerely with the many members who thanked the hon. the Minister. It was my privilege to lead a deputation to him on behalf of my hometown and district and I want to thank him and his staff for the open-hearted, sincere way in which they received us. When we arrived, we felt at home and once again we felt that this is the right man in the right place and that he will do a great deal for the S.A. Railways. The budget which the hon. the Minister introduced exceeded our expectations.

It is probably well known that one of the largest factories for rolling stock for passenger transport is situated in my constituency, in the industrial town of Vorsterskroon just outside Nigel. Vorsterskroon cannot be proclaimed for any further industrial expansion than it has at present, due to the fact that much of the ground surrounding Nigel station was undermined in the old days when there were still mines there, and because of the very steep gradient. The city council has a great deal of land around Vorsterskroon, very fine level land, but the problem in regard to expanding the station puts a spoke in the wheel of any further proclamation. It is true that the construction of a connecting road is being planned to Dunnottar, which is closer, instead of to Nigel station. We should like to ask whether this cannot be accelerated. We know that the plans have already been drawn up, and we are grateful for the speed with which this has been done. We are bold enough to ask for this because we realize that we have already received a great deal of assistance from the S.A. Railways and we appreciate it a great deal. I also want to convey my gratitude to the officials at the head office who did a tremendous amount at short notice. In fact, I was amazed to see what they accomplished in a very short while. This does not go unnoticed in my constituency. For the record, we want to thank those officials very heartily once again for their very good service and we want to thank the hon. the Minister in particular for what he is trying to do for my constituency in this regard.

Mr. Chairman, on this occasion I want to give attention once again to a request in regard to cheaper air fares that I have already made during the Second Reading debate. I make bold to say that the motive which prompted my plea, found a response in the hon. member for Kempton Park at least, when he spoke about the possible elimination of first-class travelling facilities. Hon. members on this side of the House are not unsympathetic towards the problems experienced by the Railways Administration and we also realize that the funds for maintaining the services of the S.A. Airways and the other services of the Railways Administration must come from somewhere. However, a situation has now arisen where, to my mind, we should be making it much easier for the S.A. Airways in particular to comply with its social obligations, should there be any, and at the same time to be in a position to operate economically and meaningfully. In this regard I am referring to the figures which the hon. the Minister gave us today, which show how the utilization of seating capacity on the S.A. Airways flights has improved in the past year. I feel that this tendency can improve even more and that it can contribute towards making the services of the S.A. Airways profitable once again and could lead to travelling costs being kept down whilst the services can be continued at the same level of profitability. I asked the hon. the Minister to investigate the withdrawal of some non-essential services, including serving meals and drinks. In his reply, the hon. the Minister said that if meals were to be done away with, it would mean a difference of only R1 per passenger. However, in making this calculation, I am quite sure that the hon. the Minister has not taken into account the fact that the flight staff could be drastically reduced if serving meals and alcohol were eliminated.

This is exactly what the problem is. We cannot reduce the flight staff because they have other duties to perform too.

I should like the hon. the Minister to discuss this matter in his reply and I want to ask him in all sincerity to go into this matter in depth. I realize there are other services that the flight staff must carry out, but if one travels regularly by air, one realizes that three-quarters of their time is spent serving meals and drinks. I am also aware of the fact that most of the passengers who use the services of the S.A. Airways, are businessmen flying at their companies’ expense. Perhaps it will not make such a difference to them if they have to pay R30 more for a return flight to Johannesburg from now on. Possibly they would prefer to enjoy the drinks and meals which they are offered and consequently pay a little more for the flight, but it cannot be denied that there are thousands of South Africans who would prefer to put up with a bit of discomfort if they could fly at a cheaper rate. I have no doubt about this. I want to intercede on behalf of these people because provision has not yet been made for them at this stage. I cannot say whether it is possible to offer a type of third-class flight, which offers nothing more than transporting a passenger from point A to point B, but nevertheless I feel that this matter deserves further urgent attention from the hon. the Minister and the Administration.

There is another plea which I should like to make too. I often book my flights through the local booking office in Cape Town, and to my mind there is no doubt that, possibly due to the high utilization of seating capacity on the S.A. Airways flights, it is difficult to make telephonic contact with the local booking office these days. One can understand that this is due to growing pains which occur when the demand for flights is too high. Furthermore, queueing at the booking office, particularly in the holiday period, has become rather out of control at times, and I would appreciate it if the hon. the Minister could give his attention to this too.

Finally, I want to associate myself with the plea that the hon. member for Sea Point made in regard to the situation that has developed at Cape Town station. I want to say at once that I reject the allegation of the hon. member for Bellville—who is not in the House at the moment—that we are obsessed with race. We are merely looking at the hard facts. We appreciate the sensitivity which the Administration is apparently showing now in that they have already progressed so far as to remove the apartheid signs. We appreciate the fact that they have now become aware of the potential problems which may arise, and that they were sensitive enough to remove the signs. Unfortunately, however, it is no use removing signs whilst apartheid continues. This is not the way to do things. Hon. members on the other side of the House will tell us about the potential for friction which exists when racial intermingling takes place, but if we want to create a good recipe for friction, it is to remove apartheid signs whilst apartheid still continues in practice. [Interjections.] This is exactly what is happening, and I want to ask the hon. the Minister in all earnestness to go into this matter urgently and to obtain clarity in this regard as soon as possible and then to advertise in such a way that people will know whether there is apartheid or not, in order to remove the embarrassment which is being experienced to a very large extent at this stage.

Mr. Chairman, we have a great deal of appreciation for the fact that in the debate thus far there has been repeated reference to one of those groups of officials of the S.A. Railways who have received, very little recognition in the past for the services that they render, and in this regard I am referring to the S.A. Railway Police. One notes with appreciation the fact that hon. members on the other side of the House as well as hon. members on this side of the House, such as the hon. member for Witwatersberg, spoke of these officials with a great deal of appreciation. When one looks at the work which these officials do, one is impressed by the extent of this work. When one takes note of the fact that the S.A. Railway Police had to investigate 104 000 charges with regard to penal cases in the past financial year, we see that of these 104 000, 102 000 were dealt with by the Railway Police, and of these, more than 71 000 appeared in court, 1 040 were settled by the department, 14 000 were withdrawn, 1 400 were unfounded and approximately 14%, i.e. 14 000, have not yet been solved. The suspected transgressors have not yet been traced and the case is being investigated further. Then one also has a great deal of appreciation, when one thinks of the fact that these officials must accept the responsibility of an investment of R8,2 million. This includes 23 000 km of rail network, 10 000 bridges, 178 tunnels, a little over 1 000 stations, 188 000 goods trucks, 10 000 passenger trucks, 4 800 locomotives, 18 000 motor vehicles and 36 aircraft. Then we also want to emphasize that we appreciate the service that the officials of the Department of the Railway Police are rendering. However, when one takes a look at the opportunities for promotion within the framework of the S.A. Railway Police, one finds that the scope for promotion there is rather limited. I am speaking as a layman in this regard, but I received the impression that the rank of the chief of the S.A. Railway Police does not correspond as regards status and salary with the rank of other generals. That is why I am asking the hon. the Minister, in the interest of the head of the S.A. Railway Police, and also in the interest of those who are aiming at high positions, to take a look at this situation.

Now I want to come back to my constituency. Ample provision was made in the budget for the Railway official, and attention was also given to the Railway pensioner, but there is one facet where it is difficult to grant direct benefits, and in this regard I am thinking of the families of the Railway officials. In this sphere I should like to put in a good word for the wives and the children of Railway officials. These are families that often have to manage under very difficult circumstances without the father being present. Consequently we want to pay tribute to the families who make great sacrifices. I do think that there is a sphere in which we can accommodate them. We find that the hospitals or centres that qualify for the Railways’ Medical Fund are selected. In recent times one finds that when new hospitals are erected and new specialist services develop, steps are not always taken to integrate these services, too, in the medical services. A hospital costing approximately R5 million has recently been completed in my constituency. Specialists are available in Bethlehem, but unfortunately, at the moment these people have to travel to Kroonstad or Bloemfontein in order to receive specialist treatment. This causes a great deal of upheaval, especially when the wife of a Railway official who still has small children, has to travel there. We want to ask, if at all possible, for new hospitals, new centres and new specialist services to be included, not only to make it more convenient for the families of our Railway officials, but also as a means of economizing for the Railways and for the Railway families as such. We ask the hon. the Minister to consider this.

Mr. Chairman, I have listened attentively to the various subjects discussed by hon. members. I agree with the hon. member for Bellville that the discussion of the Railway Budget on this occasion has brought to the fore and emphasized certain central themes, apart from the wide field of activities it covers. These themes are the following: The extent to which the Railways succeeds in carrying out its mandate in terms of its founding statute by, firstly, functioning on business principles while taking into account the national interest in general. I think that this is also the test to be applied when we discuss the budget. It would take a very long time to assess all the activities and proceedings of the Railways by these yardsticks and to determine the relative degree of success or failure in achieving these aims.

The hon. member for Witwatersberg noted with great appreciation the efficient action of the technical staff of the S.A. Railways when the hail disaster took place and damage was suffered. I want to say at once that I share his appreciation of these staff members. This applies in respect of all staff who were involved in one way or another. I have already indicated that the original estimates of the damage were far lower than it was eventually found to be. The latest information is that it amounts to approximately R24,5 million. The fact is that as regards most of the aircraft it was possible, due to the exertions and the dedication of the staff, to resume normal operations on at least our domestic services within a very short period.

With reference to this the hon. member asked whether it was not possible to make special grants to the staff in these particular circumstances. I want to say at once that the idea of grants is a laudable one, but on the other hand I must point out that so many of our staff regularly render such outstanding service that it would not be so easy to find a norm on the basis of which to link such a grant to work in an organization in which approximately ¼ million people are employed. However, I just want to put it to the hon. member that we accept the idea and tell him that we have in fact granted our Railway workers an additional benefit on the basis of the awards granted by the Public Service for long and faithful service, namely additional leave on the basis of their period of service. But I shall bear in mind what the hon. member said because it attests to appreciation for the services of people. Personally I believe—indeed, it is my philosophy of life—that the greatest possible motivation for dedication, is a sense of gratitude on the part of one’s fellow man. That is what he wanted to tell me, and I agree wholeheartedly with him.

The hon. member for De Aar has in the past, too, referred to the possibility of supplying electricity to the platteland, more specifically to the farming community, by way of the Railways in co-operation with Escom. The hon. member for Kimberley South has also corresponded with me in this regard in connection with his constituency. Although I am very sympathetically inclined as regards the need for the provision of electricity to the platteland, I must point out that there are certain legal provisions relating to Escom’s own function and the Electricity Control Board, which exercises control over the generation and distribution of power. I am not reacting negatively to the hon. member’s plea; the fact is however that there are certain statutory provisions in this regard.

The hon. member will understand that I am not technically inclined and that I do not have the technical experience in this regard, and therefore I must allow myself to be guided by the advisors with regard to the technical aspects. The hon. member will understand that power cables are laid for specific purposes. As far as the Railways is concerned, they are laid to provide traction power. Branches from these power cables to stations and houses are not even permitted for departmental purposes. In other words, the function of the power cables is to provide traction power for the locomotive. Branchoffs from that power cable in order to provide electricity for our own staff at isolated stations where there is no electricity supply, are not permitted. This is not even permitted for administrative purposes. There are specific reasons for this. It is not that we are unsympathetic towards the people who would like to have it If power failures occur—and they do often occur—the department’s activities can be proceeded with since the connection point in question can be isolated and the electricity required for traction power supplied by the sub-stations on both sides of the cut in the power supply. However, the supply to private consumers could not be resumed before the fault was repaired, and this could give rise to criticism of the administration and entail major embarrassment for the administration which, in the first place, should not be the supplier or the distributor of power for private or individual communities. If such connections were provided, the department’s technical staff would be responsible for the regular examination of equipment and supply lines. I want to say to the hon. member—and this is quite probably the most important reason why I cannot give him a favourable reply to his request—that in my opinion such an arrangement would be undesirable and impracticable due to the critical shortage of technical staff that we are experiencing at present. I think the hon. member will agree with me that the supply of power to private bodies is a matter for Escom and the local authorities. In this regard I want to agree with the hon. member that there are tremendous possibilities that could be investigated, and that agricultural co-operatives in the platteland, in co-operation with Escom, could draw power from Escom and then undertake the distribution of that power themselves within defined areas. I should like to endorse and promote that idea of his in order to overcome that problem.

The hon. member for Potgietersrus, who apologized to me for not being able to be present, inquired about the doubling and electrification of the railway line to the North. Item No. 645 of the Brown Book for 1980-’81 makes provision for the increase in the carrying capacity and the electrification of the Pyramid-Pietersburg section at a cost of approximately R75 million. This work involves the lengthening of the looplines between Pienaarsriver and Pietersburg and the provision of additional crossing loops. After this has been completed, sufficient capacity will be available over the short term to handle the expected increase in traffic. If an unexpected increase in traffic requires a further increase in capacity, further facilities can easily be adapted to the existing planning. Before any consideration can be given to the doubling of the Railway line north of Pienaarsriver, other methods of increasing the carrying capacity, such as the provision of centralized traffic control and regrading, will have to be investigated.

The hon. member also inquired about the rail link between Marble Hall and Groblersdal. According to the feasibility study carried out in 1973 in regard to the possibility of such a link, economic justification for such a service was lacking at that stage. A rail link between Marble Hall and Groblersdal would be about 29 km long and the cost of construction could easily exceed R14 million. Since 1973, further representations have been received for the construction of such a link but up to now no economic justification for constructing the line could be found. In the light of the present energy crisis—this is important—and the service to the homelands, a full investigation will once again be instituted to ascertain the economic justifiability of the proposed rail link and the junction with Roossenekal. I therefore want to say to the hon. member that the management and I have undertaken to carry out the study in question and we shall see whether the economy has changed since then.

We should be obliged.

The hon. member for Pretoria Central—who also apologized for his absence—referred to the water supply at Salvokop. Let me say at once that it may interest the hon. member to know that due to representations made by the Historical Monuments Council, I agreed that a section of Salvokop would be repaired and restored to the original form of the houses that stood there at the Administration’s expense. I think we should never overlook the fact that when talking about the Railways, we are dealing, too, with a culture-generating institution. It is estimated that the cost of restoration in this particular regard will amount to between R150 000 and R300 000, but I think hon. members will agree that in terms of the preservation of the cultural history assets of our country this is a valuable investment. It appears that some of the houses in this area will have to be demolished to make way for the playground to which the hon. member referred, and I have undertaken to consider that possibility. The hon. member also referred to the problem of water. I just want to confirm that negotiations with the City Council of Pretoria have been in progress for some time to takeover the services in Salvokop, including provision of water to the departmental houses. These negotiations are still in progress, but I undertake to see to it that immediate attention is given to the failures in the water supply. With a view to the possible takeover of the services in Salvokop by the City Council, I am of opinion that the question of making playground facilities available is being shelved until the negotiations with the City Council have been settled, but it seems as if there is room in this particular regard.

†The hon. member for Hillbrow requested my views on the possible takeover by the private sector of certain departmental road and transport services. I have already replied in some detail on this particular issue, but let me explain again, just for the record, that the primary function of the S.A. Railways’ road services has been in the past to develop outlying areas of the country and to provide reasonably low-priced transport services for the conveyance of agricultural products. This is also in terms of the challenge to the S.A. Railways in terms of the Act. In addition, most of these services, as well as other services are feeder services to rail services in addition to providing a door to door service. These services are in many cases uneconomical. Consequently the Railways must also operate services which are more lucrative, for instance the conveyance of abnormal loads and the transportation of commodities in specialized vehicles, to compensate for the losses incurred on many country services, particularly those operating regularly to fixed time-tables. Therefore, in considering the question of selling the departmental road transport services to private enterprise, there are a number of extremely important considerations which we have to bear in mind. One consideration is that in the interests of the country private enterprise would have to take all the services over, irrespective of whether they pay or not.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.