I move—

The hon. member wants to move the adjournment of the House on a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the refusal of the Minister of Labour to answer questions relating to the administration of his department. I might have been disposed to give the hon. member leave to put this question had it been in regard to questions put on the paper, but I do not think any member can insist upon Ministers answering questions not put on the paper—supplementary questions.

My motion refers primarily to the refusal of the Minister to answer Section 1 of this question. He merely said “no.” It is an insufficient answer. He must, according to the rule laid down by May, fully answer the question

I am not aware of any rule that compels a Minister to answer according to how an hon. member wants his question answered.

I move, as an unopposed motion and pursuant to notice—

seconded.

I move, as an unopposed motion and pursuant to notice—

seconded.

I move—

I am very glad to introduce this motion, because I believe that it affects matters of interest in the development of our country which should be brought to the notice of the House. The people outside are very keen to see the House deal with matters in which they have a keen interest, and I think that this motion which has regard to the laying of two sections of railway is of great importance. The line I propose is not altogether a new line, but has already been proposed several times in the House It is a line which has been surveyed several times, and has been inquired into by former Ministers and members of the former railway board. The first section of line I am proposing runs from Worcester through Viliiersdorp along the fertile Doringriver valley. With regard to the fruitfulness of that area, my seconder, the hon. member for Worcester (Mr. Heatlie), will give you more details. The valley of Villiersdorp, which begins at the boundary of Worcester and Caledon, is known for its fertility. Villiersdorp itself lies at the upper end of the fruitful valley of River Zonder End. Several of the members on the other side of the House are also known in Villiersdorp, and I think that certain promises were made that that area would get its railway. Villiersdorp is in the peculiar position that there is a natural and close settlement on the land brought about not by the State, but by the people themselves. The district of the village of Villiersdorp and surrounding districts are divided into small settlements, and are amazingly fruitful. Orchards and vineyards are developed by intensive cultivation, which is conducted scientifically. If one goes outside Villiersdorp a little distance, one comes into well-developed sheep and grain farming districts, as also is the fruit farming. Amongst the sheep and grain farmers we find some of the best farmers in South Africa. The people of Worcester, and also the district of Villiersdorp, would very much like to have a direct connection to the Cape Town-Caledon railway at Bot River. The farmers lower down along the river, and also the inhabitants of Greytown and Genadendal, would very much like the line to run along the river for some distance and link up with the existing line at or near Caledon. The public naturally submit to the procedure laid down by the constitution, viz., that the railway board, after proper inquiry, shall decide on the course of the line. I may say, if there was ever a line which would be an asset to the country—

And will pay?

The railway to Caledon pays, and this line will run through a very fruitful area, and will pay. It will be an asset, and no responsibility to the taxpayer of the country. By building this line, the State will be placed in a position of being able possibly to place a great number of people on the land. Villiersdorp has a regular rainfall, and the soil is suitable for fruit farming, sowing and sheep farming, and I think that we, under the circumstances, should do all in our power to assist in the development of that area.

Will that not increase the public debt?

This side of the House was always in favour of—

A large public debt?

Our party has always supported development of the resources of the country, and for that purpose the increase of the public debt to a certain extent. That is another interruption typical of the hon. member for Ceres. Then I propose another line running along the Bot River across a fertile agricultural area with a large rainfall and an area capable of considerable development. The beautiful healthy Caledon coast is famous throughout South Africa as one of the healthiest resorts, and people from Rhodesia, Transvaal and all parts of South Africa come to it. Even in Europe this coast is known, and people come from Europe to Hermanus in search of good health. But not only will this line develop the coast, but I propose that it run through Hermanus and Villiersdorp to Stanford. That will open up a large agricultural area, and will connect up the coastal strip of Caledon, and also that of Bredasdorp, which is at the moment very congested, and develop a large and fertile stretch of land. The coast near Stanford is one of the most fruitful districts of South Africa, and a large section of the coast at Bredasdorp will share in the advantages, and in that way be developed. All these areas are capable of considerable development, and the lines I propose will not only provide for the needs of Caledon and adjacent places, but will also be of service to the whole of South Africa. Thousands of people are carried annually from Bot River to Hermanus by motors and lorries belonging to the railways. I think last year as many as 10,000. A light railway will only be necessary, and I hope that this line will be the first to be taken into consideration.

I second the motion. After the comprehensive address of the hon. member for Caledon (Mr. Krige), I do not need to say much. I just want to draw attention to the fact that the proposed line will run through the district of Worcester for a distance of 30 miles, and a portion of the district through which it will run is thickly populated, and yields a number of products in abundance. Were the farmers there to have the opportunity of conveying their produce more easily to the market, the population would increase considerably. Not only will it be of great importance to the transport of produce, but also to the large number of passengers who detrain at Worcester and go on to Cilliersdorp and Hermanus by motor.

I move, as an amendment—

It is unnecessary to make a long speech. It is well known that the area for which I want a railway is one of the most fruitful in the country. The former railway board was there no less than three times and investigated the country, and glowing reports were brought up by the most capable engineers and experts. The former Minister of Railways declared in this House that the line “is most desirable and should be built as soon as funds allow.” The present Minister of Railways visited this portion of the country recently, and I understand instituted a thorough inquiry. I leave the laying of the line in this most important portion of the country in the hands of the Minister, the Railway Board and the Department of Railways, with the greatest confidence.

I second the amendment.

I am glad to have the opportunity of saying something on the amendment of the hon. member for Ficksburg (Mr. Keyter), as well as on the motion of the hon. member for Caledon (Mr. Krige). Although I did not enjoy the privilege of securing a seconder for my motion, I hope that those who find a seconder to-day will not have a better opportunity of getting their railways built than those who did not find a seconder. I regard these motions, however, as a waste of the time of the House. The hon. members for Caledon and Ficksburg made glowing speeches, and spoke of the patent importance of their motions, but nobody listened to their speeches. The House is not capable of dealing with these cases, but, in spite of that, the whole afternoon is taken up with them. There is a long list of amendments on the agenda, and hon. members hope that the press will report them, and that their electors will read them. Their electors may be interested in them, but I hope that the country will understand that these motions in the House are of no significance.

Then why did you propose a motion the other day?

I have every right to propose a motion again, but I don’t want to do it. I want to remain consistent, and I don’t wish to waste the time of the House. The hon. member for Caledon pleaded very well for his motion, but were he to go to the Railway Board he would probably do more than here in the House. These motions are nothing less than a farce, and I hope that the Railway Board will not pay any attention to them. The Minister is here, it is true, but it is impossible to pay attention to everybody. All the districts which desire railways are just as good as Caledon and Ficksburg, but each pleads only for its own district.

You actually proposed a motion the other day.

Unfortunately, my seconder was ill the other day, but I hope that the public will understand that these motions mean nothing. As a last Speaker of the House, the hon. member for Caledon ought to know that that is the case, but lie hopes that if the line is granted, then he will be able to say—

These motions are a waste of time, and I hope that in the future things will be arranged differently, so that with regard to railway proposals we can deal with them just as we deal with petitions, and hand them to the Clerk of the House, who will then send them to the Railway Board.

I move, as a further amendment—

I must say that I am grieved at the speech of the hon. member for Wepener (Mr. Hugo), and his attitude is inexplicable to me; because his motion met with disaster, he hopes now that the Railway Board will take no notice of what we have to say. He even calls these motions a waste of time, but when he spoke last and tendered his motion, I thought of the quotation so often used—

This saying originated when somebody, the representative of a place called Bunkum, had to plead a cause in which he had no hope, and at the end said—

and it seems to me that the hon. member is under the impression that each member is talking bunkum. I am not doing that, and I don’t address myself to the press, either. We usually speak of the vast prospects of our country, and that we have faith in the future of our industrial and agricultural development. The country produces wheat, mealies, wool, meat and eggs, and we know also that there is an unlimited supply of coal. If we admit that, then we know that railways are things we require. We hear that the traffic on the main lines is becoming so heavy, that they may perhaps have to be doubled, and we know that a start has been made with duplicating the line from Cape Town to Paarl. Now I want to draw the attention of the House to this, that if we have to duplicate the line up to De Aar through that desert-like stretch, it will involve terrible expense. I think that we can obtain a double line without duplicating the line from Cape Town to De Aar. It has been rightly said that mistakes were made in laying railways in the past, and that one of these mistakes is that the main line passes over the Hex River mountains. The opinion is that the line should never have gone that way, but should have passed through Ceres. If we inquire into the matter, we shall see that the line over the Hex River mountains is unusually steep, and an ascent of one in 40 feet is reached. The Wolseley-Ceres line has a rise of only one in 66 feet, and that shows immediately that had the line gone through Ceres, it would not have been so terribly steep, and the train would have been able to draw heavier freights. I understand that the idea now is that the line will be extended beyond Ceres, in order to link up with the main line in the vicinity of Triangle. If that is done, a new district will be developed, instead of doubling the line to Triangle. A fertile area will be served, and, in addition, it will be an easier route than the present main line. In the district of Beaufort West again, there is considerable traffic, but it will be a pity to double the line from Beaufort West to De Aar. A detour should rather be made at Beaufort West (Hutchinson), and a line built straight from Hutchinson to Naauwpoort. In that case a district, rich, and yielding an abundance of produce, will be developed. I need not go into details, but everybody knows that that is one of the best Karoo stretches, and that the yield is enormous. By building the line from Hutchinson to Naauwpoort, this fruitful area will be served, and there will be a double line right up to the Transvaal. Traffic from De Aar to the mines of Kimberley and in the north is already becoming too heavy, and if my scheme is carried out and a link established between Hutchinson and Naauwpoort, the position will be improved, I look at the matter from the broad point of view of the future of the country, and not only from the point of view of the progressive constituency which I represent, and therefore I have no hesitation in moving my amendment.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amend ment—

If one were to go into the motions moved this afternoon, it would appear that what we read in the Bible, that to those who have shall be given, while from those who have not that which they have shall be taken away, is only too true. The hon. member for Colesberg (Mr. G. A. Louw) is pleading for a railway which for ten or twelve miles runs parallel to the main line, while we in the north-west of the Free State and the Cape Province are longing for railway connections, Fortunately, we now have a Nationalist Minister of Railways who has already given his ear to the cry which has for so many years been heard in vain. I would certainly be neglecting my duty if I did not express to the Minister and the members of the railway board, the thanks of the neglected portions of the Free State for what they did a few years ago. I am convinced that they will have to admit that if they ever did a wise thing then it was to build a line in the north-west of the Free State. The line which has been granted, however, means only a drop in the ocean. It had scarcely become known how the line was to be built when Hopetown sent a commando to Cape Town, because its interests had not been considered in the proposed railway. I use the word commando because the hon. Minister will admit that they spent £500 in railway tickets in order to bring their interests to his notice personally. From the point of view of the Railway Administration I can understand that it is impossible to provide every town or district with a railway, and that is why I do not want to go into these old matters. It is a fact, however, that the vast majority of the division has not been served, in spite of the proposed new lines. The only railway connection they have is the Fourteen Streams line joining up at Bloemhof. At that place there is a clear road and I hope that the Minister will provide the motor service asked for. It is, however, a fact that only a section on the west side of Hopetown is served; the new line lies 28 miles from Hopetown and from there to the main line through the Free State, it is about 50 miles. This, also, is one of the most fruitful parts of the Free State. This year has been a bad year for the farmers, but I challenge anybody to come to Hopetown to see the wonderful mealies in spite of the drought. If one looks at the map then one sees that when the line, on which the administration is now engaged, is completed, three lines will run from east to west in the Free State. Then the railway board has already completed several lines in the country to feed the main lines and semi-main lines. On the map one can see that the vast stretched-out portion from Kroonstad to Bloemfontein is without railway communication, and is in no position to feed the main line. The railway board was there recently and had to admit that this is one of the most fertile parts of the Free State; in addition to that, the line which I propose is one which will cost comparatively little, because there are no rivers to be crossed. On the other hand I can give the hon. Minister the assurance that if it is eventually decided to meet these districts in their justifiable requests, then the satisfaction so much sought after which he, and I, desire should exist will be achieved.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

This is already the eighth time I am moving the first portion of my amendment, and I have had the honour of having had the Minister and the railway board visit the spot. The second portion of my motion embraces the amendment standing in the name of the hon. member for Barberton (Mr. Rood). I hope that the railway board has recognized that it is a necessary line. The railway from Witbank to Springs is the best paying line in the Union, and I can give the Minister the assurance that this line will be the second best in the Union when once it is built. The rainfall there is regular, and the harvests nearly always normal. It is also an important coal area, and now that the large iron and steel industry is going to be established coal will be still more necessary. Railway connections should thus be provided as requested in my motion. The farmers are experiencing more difficulty to-day in the transport of their mealies. The hon. Minister need not be afraid that the line will not pay because it will be one of the most profitable in the Union.

I second the amendment, The Minister of Railways has visited the district and I am sure that the Minister has seldom been seen so pleasantly affected by a district as he was when he was there. He was able to convince himself from the mealies produced there, from the coal there and the tobacco, cotton, asbestos and gold. If the Minister would think back, his face would light up with joy and he would undoubtedly have the line built as soon as possible.

I move, as a further amendment—

It is not necessary for me to go into details. The importance and fruitfulness of these districts is well known. The rainfall is fairly regular and had harvests are exceptional. A large number of articles are produced there for export. Wine farming is well developed, and a considerable quantity of liquor is produced for oversea markets. The wines of Montagu are well known, even in foreign countries, and fruit farming has made remarkable progress in the past year or two in the district for which I ask a railway. The growing of apples has specially improved, and I think the best apples in the world may be found there. Another portion of the district through which the line will run is known for its sheep. Sheep farming has spread considerably, and the other branches of agriculture are also to be found there. The distance of railway asked for is only 28 miles, and I hope that the Minister, when he visits the district shortly, will convince himself that this is one of the lines which should appear at the top of the list. With regard to the hon. member for Wepener (Mr. Hugo), he proposed a motion the other day asking for a railway, and had every opportunity of speaking to his motion. Perhaps he realizes now that what he said was very vague, but he criticizes those members who are introducing motions to-day. He reminds me of the dog in the manger who wished to prevent the horse from feeding because he himself could not feed.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

This is not an ordinary line but an extraordinary line. I just want to remind the Minister how, 30 years ago, a start was made with what was then known as the Grand Junction railway. It was the idea to obtain by means of this railway direct communication between east and west. The portion of the line from East London to Somerset East was laid at that time, but it stopped there, and the work has never been completed. Now after 30 years the Government has consented to extend the line to Bruintjes Hoogte. That is a glace in the veld, and I take it that the Government never intended ending the line there. I know that the underlying idea is to extend the line further to Klipplaat and achieve the connection originally aimed at by the Grand Junction railway. What has our position been all these years. We do not perhaps air our views so often, and that is perhaps why we have been treated so badly. But if I have to go to Cape Town I have first to travel a few hundred miles up to Kimberley, or down to Port Elizabeth, and then I can go on further to the Cape. That is not only a great inconvenience to passengers, but also injurious to goods carried. Last year a large quantity of oranges was sent to Cape Town. They had first to go to Port Elizabeth, and from there to Klipplaat and then eventually on to Cape Town. The hon. members for Colesberg (Mr. G. A. Louw) and Graaff-Reinet (Mr. I. P. van Heerden) proposed railways which will constitute shorter routes, but my line will mean direct communication between east and west.

I second the amendment. This is one of the most fertile and best parts of South Africa. In the palace of Akbar the Great in India there is an inscription which reads—

but his architect had never seen the country lying between Bruintjes Hoogte and Klipplaats. The mere name conveys no idea of its productive fertility. It has been waiting all these years to pour riches into the lap of the department governed by the Minister, and I trust that whatever may be said about any other lines this one will no longer be neglected. I am glad to be in the House to-day. I remember when farmers of the country threatened to tear up the first railway line built in the country districts. They would not have any line, but I have lived to see every farmer, not only wanting a railway to his front door, but one to his back door. It is a sign that the country is progressing.

I move, as a further amendment—

I am sorry that the hon. member for Somerset East (Mr. Vosloo) has travelled so little, otherwise he would know that the line I propose does not only mean a shorter route. When the line is laid the hon. member can come and have a look at it. There is no line to develop the most fruitful portion in South Africa, viz., Graaff-Reinet. Graaff-Reinet has the name of being the best district for Friesland cattle and can produce better sheep than Australia. Unfortunately, the country has suffered during the past few years under drought, hitherto unknown, but that will not always be the case, and the country ought to be developed. I also do not doubt but that the line I propose will soon be built.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

The fact that there are so many motions makes it necessary to combine, because of the lack of a seconder. Naturally, it is impossible for the Minister to build all the lines asked for, because it would cost millions and millions of pounds and take many years to carry out, but the question now is which railways are the most necessary. The Minister, perhaps, knows that in America railway lines are built in those districts in which development is possible in the near future, in districts, therefore, where the population can increase in the near future, and the most intensive agriculture can be carried out. In the district for which I am asking the first mentioned railway there is room for thousands and thousands of people, and the second motion which was originally the motion standing in the name of the hon. member for Ladybrand (Mr. Swart) asks for a railway for the most fertile portion of the Free State.

I second the amendment. I hope that the House will realize that because of the lack of a seconder we have to cooperate, and that the co-operation will assist in getting the desired railways built.

I move, as a further amendment—

First of all, I wish to say a few words about the attitude of the hon. member for Wepener. On a former occasion he had the opportunity of proposing his motion, but, unfortunately, he had no seconder, and his motion went by the board. Now the hon. member criticizes us. I should also like some other procedure to be followed with regard to these motions, but, under existing conditions, we have no other means of drawing the attention of the Minister to these proposals. I do not think it is necessary to say much about my motion; the Government is convinced that it is necessary to lay the line as soon as possible. The line from Bothaville to Bultfontein will only pay, and be of some significance when the extension for which I am asking has been granted, and the connection to East London and other places has been established. That is what is eventually aimed at. The Minister knows that farmers in those districts are just as progressive as in any other district. If the farmers only get the necessary conveniences they will be able to show in a short time what they can do, but until the line is built the district cannot be fully developed. I propose two alternative extensions as hon. members may have seen. The Minister knows that there was no unanimity in these districts with regard to the proposed extension of the line. I do not blame the people that they did not agree because the district is spread out, and the people have waited so long that each section is fighting for its own interests by reason of the difficulty of the two towns, Dealesville and Boshof, and it seems it is impossible to serve both towns with one line. Each town strives in the first place for its own interests. One has more interest in one town and another in some other town when it comes to railway communication. We then endeavoured to get the Railway Board to lay the line between the towns, and as close as possible to them. The station would then be 12 to 15 miles from the town, but the difficulty is that if the station is built there is the danger of a new town springing into being at the station, which would then operate to the detriment of the old town. We have the example, amongst others, of Lindley Road. The danger is that the new town will undermine the old town. We move these two motions now, and should the Railway Board visit us shortly, they can decide what course should be taken and choose one of the two lines. We feel that the station should be as close as possible to one of the two towns, and we leave it to the Railway Board to choose.

I second the amendment. I heartily support the amendment, because the line proposed by the former speaker runs through the most fertile part of the country. The Minister can rest assured that if the railway is built the trains will always be fully loaded; if it be not eggs and maize, diamonds and other articles will be carried.

I move, as a further amendment—

Of all the amendments on the agenda this one enjoys the most attention, not only in South Africa, but also abroad. Therefore, I have so much the more confidence in moving it. There are two points from which the line to Postmasburg can be built, the one from Koopmansfontein, and the other from Douglas. The Minister and the Railway Board are familiar with the wishes of the inhabitants in those districts, and, therefore, I don’t wish to say anything as to the point from which the extension should be made. A few years ago the Railway Administration introduced road motor services, and within a short time much bigger lorries had to be provided. If the Minister waits much longer he will have to have a sort of transport contrivance made, something between a lorry and a train, if he does not wish to provide a railway. The general manager of railways says in his evidence that he could name dozens of lines on which the traffic has developed to such an extent, simply by reason of the laying of such lines, that it was difficult for the Administration to cope with the traffic. He mentioned, e.g., the case of the Douglas railway. The line runs to that point now, and a private company has proposed extending the line to the manganese fields. It is said that 200,000 tons will be carried to the harbours, but, perhaps, it will be as much as 600,000 tons. Should the line not be built, progress there will be very much crabbed. It is not necessary for me to say much about the development which will follow the laying of the line, but I have the greatest confidence in suggesting that the Railway Board give their attention to it.

I second the amendment. I want to endorse heartily what the hon. member for Hopetown (Dr. Stals) has said. There is an English proverb:“Fellow feeling makes men wondrous kind,” and we in the north-west can sympathize with each other. If one looks at the railway map those parts strike one as being desert, because our network of railways concentrates on Johannesburg. Hon. members plead for short railways, a few miles long, where they have already got railways at their back doors. We must pay more attention to the provision of railways in the north-west. The hon. member for Barberton (Mr. Rood) has told us what his district produces, but this line will be able to convey all those things, and even manganese. We know of diamond fields in the district of Postmasburg, and, were further search to be made, other articles for which Solomon sent for building his temple would probably be found. If there was ever justification for a line, then it is this line which I support.

I move, as a further amendment—

and to add to that the amendment standing in the name of the hon. member for Cradock (Mr. G. C. van Heerden), viz.—

The first portion of my motion aims at communication between the mass of railways of the Cape and Natal, and when that has been completed there will be direct communication. The second portion of my motion is of local interest, and has regard to the development of one of the best cattle districts in the Union (Wodehouse). With regard to the latter, I said on a former occasion that the northeasterly portion of the Cape has been very badly treated in the past. Those who know Wodehouse will agree that it is a district which demands railway connection. At the moment there is practically none, because the line from Sterkstroom to Maclear does not provide for their needs. I am certain that the Minister will be convinced that it is necessary to build a line at once, and that he will find thereafter that it will be one of the most profitable lines in the Union. With regard to the other line which will provide direct communication between the Cape and Natal, I may say that it is of national importance. I can give the members of the Railway Board the assurance that there are a great many members in the House from the Cape, Free State and Natal who support the extension of that line. At the moment there are railways from East London to Umtata, and from East London through Sterkstroom to Maclear, and, until recently, there has been competition as to the line to be extended. The members of Parliament who are interested in the matter have, however, agreed to support the proposal embraced in my amendment. I don’t need to go into details, because the Administration has already sent an engineer to survey a portion of the line, but I want to give the Minister the assurance that if the line is put through, a fine stretch of country will be developed, and will be of great service not only to Natal, but also to the north-easterly districts of the Cape. I have the greatest confidence that the Minister will send the Railway Board there without delay in order that they may enquire into both lines.

I second the amendment.

I would like to support this amendment. The hon. member proposed a line from Kokstad to Umtata, this is a very important line forging as it will the link between the Cape and Natal. The others don’t matter so much. We have been expecting this line for many years and the enormous resources of the district will ensure its payability from the time it is built. Pending the construction of this line I hope the Minister will inaugurate a road motor service between Kokstad and Umtata, this will handle a tremendous amount of business and traffic until the railway is built. The district has been surveyed by the department’s representatives whose reports were most favourable. I trust that the Minister will authorize this service at an early date.

I originally introduced a motion and apparently the hon. member for Wodehouse (Mr. Vermooten) has taken it over. The fact that we have no difficulty in getting seconders for this motion shows how very important this line is. The Minister should visit the Transkei and see for himself how important it is. We have invited him many times now for the last three years and if he will pay us a visit he will realize what this line means in the development of the Eastern Province. It would be one of the greatest feats of his office if he links up the Eastern Province with Natal, and if he does that he can come to my constituency any time he likes and tell them the Nationalist Government is a real good Government.

I move, as a further amendment—

The second portion of my amendment is that standing in the name of the hon. member for Winburg (Dr. van der Merwe). The line I propose is very short, but I think it would pay at once. Our railways are naturally administered on business lines, and apart from that, we want to see that profitable lines are built. The hon. member has visited these parts and he knows what the conditions are. With the greatest confidence I can say that the line will yield considerable profits at once. There are gold mines in those parts, but the difficulty to-day is that costs of administration are considerably increased by reason of the lack of transport. I have received a letter to the effect that the roads are in such a bad state that they cannot be used, and the result is that the mines may perhaps have to close down. I do not plead so much for the mines, as for the development of the country. The farmers in those parts are dependent on the mines, because they have invested their money in fruit farms and dairies, and are therefore dependent on the development of the mines. The Minister is familiar with the circumstances, and as he is a wide-awake business man he will realize at once that the line will be one of the most profitable in the country. Therefore, I trust that my motion will receive favourable consideration, and that the line will be constructed as soon as possible.

I second this amendment, and I am quite sure the inhapitants of the country will be happy when the proceedings of this afternoon are broadcast through the press. This area is not one of sylvan beauty, it is an industrial area, and the industry is mining supplemented by extensive farming. The Minister and the railway board are well aware of the requirements in this area and I do not think the chances of getting our requirements met are enhanced by prolonging the discussion here. I would like to refer to the report of Sir Robert Kotze when he said that the crushing capacity of the Rand would be reduced by large percentages in the next few years. It is essential that new areas should be opened up for employment, and that without delay. Between Benoni and Springs we have thirteen mines working, the output of which is £26,000,000 a year, which is 60 per cent. of the entire amount carried on the railways.

I move, as a further amendment—

And because it is so difficult for so many to get amendment seconders I move further—

With regard to the first motion, I just wish to draw attention to the fact that I have introduced this motion every year since 1920, when I entered Parliament. In the meantime my district has been granted a new section of railway which will be of great value but up to the present my district, Ceres and Sutherland, consisting of nearly 1,000,000 morgen of ground, have only had five miles of railway, and that has been laid on the guarantee of the landowners of the Ceres district to meet the expected deficit. This means that people on farms 100 miles from the nearest station have had to pay taxes for this little bit of line in the district. It shows how keen the people are to obtain railways. I want to ask the Minister not to forget that even though the districts are perhaps not so thickly populated, the inhabitants of Ceres and Sutherland are also good burghers, and that taxpayers also live there, and that he should not treat us badly. I think that the new line from Ceres to Prince Alfred is sure to be profitable. And with regard to the other section for which I am now pleading, I think it will be much more profitable than is expected. This area has very favourable winter rains, and that makes it possible to grow corn, grain and rye there without irrigation. The voortrekkers called part of that the Roggeveld because winter grain grows there so well. There is, e.g., one very fertile farm which cannot be properly developed because there is no railway. The Minister ought to come and see it. It can stand comparison with any other progressive farm, but it is situate 110 miles from the nearest station, and to convey a bag of corn to the station costs about 10s.

Is there only one farm?

If the line is built my hon. friend will be able to make use of his free pass and come and see the other farms and the good country. At the time of the great drought last year 300,000 sheep were brought from adjacent districts to Sutherland for the grazing there, but a railway is still very necessary, and I hope that the Minister will seriously consider the extensions. My seconder will refer to the last part of the amendment.

I second the amendment. I think it is a very good thing that the railway board and not Parliament decides as to the construction of railways, because if Parliament had to decide all the lines asked for now would probably be built, and how the tariffs would then rise, and how the farmers would then have to pay? Undoubtedly in the further development of the country the great majority of lines proposed will be built in the long run. In my constituency the railway from Schoombie to Hofmeyr, a distance of 36 miles, has been granted, but now a further section from Hofmeyr to Tarkastad is wanted, which is also about 36 miles, and in that way the connection to East London, etc., will be established. I certainly expect that the line will be built. The former Minister of Railways had already sent the railway board to investigate the district and I hope that the lines will be included in the following programme. Much development in agriculture can be expected there, and I rely on the favourable consideration of the Minister in the investigation of that line.

I move, as a further amendment—

With the greatest confidence I again propose a railway for the fifth province of the Union. As I said on a former occasion, Bechuanaland, plus a small piece, is as big as the whole Free State, and the territory has only one little bit of railway. I do not want to go into the merits of the matter, because I also think that much time and money is being wasted. We have further opportunities on the estimates, and there are also other occasions for bringing the matter to the notice of the Railway Board and the Minister. I just want to say that day after day farmers from the Free State are settling in Bechuanaland. Above Kuruman there is a very fertile area, admirably suited to agriculture and cattle-breeding, more suited than most other districts, but I want to draw attention further to the fact that it is thought that if the connections to Postmasburg are brought about, 13 trains will run there every day. As to whether the line will pay or not, I need not discuss, because, besides a good rainfall and its suitability for stock raising and the presence of asbestos, we have been fortunate in having the greatest discovery in that district as yet, viz., manganese, which is spread over a large portion of my constituency. The laying of this line is therefore one of the most important.

I second the amendment. I know that district. If only needs a railway to develop, and if the railway is built thousands of people will be able to make a living there, and will go there to settle.

I move, as a further amendment—

It is unnecessary to say much. This line will bring farmers into communication with the Johannesburg market, and further, will link up the grain farmers of the Transvaal with the stock farmers in Bechuanaland, something, therefore, of much interest to the farmers in the Transvaal. The railway to Lichtenburg will also go through the existing diggings. It is said that the diggings are only of a temporary nature, hut they last for years and years. The Minister of Finance said that his large surplus is, to a considerable extent, due to the yield of the alluvial diggings. I am certain that if the railway were there, the Minister of Railways would also have a surplus. I hope that the Minister will give his attention to the proposed line, especially as it is seconded by the most weighty member of the House.

I second the amendment. Although I am not familiar with those parts, I have the greatest pleasure in acting as a seconder, because if the hon. mover says anything, then one can take it as being correct He says that the line will be profitable, and I am prepared to believe that.

I move as a further amendment—

It seems that my constituency is desirous of obtaining three lines at the same time, but I may remark that the constituency is ten thousand square miles in size, and that the three lines proposed are small, and that the lines themselves will be situate between 60 and 70 miles apart. The first line I propose is the same as that of last year. The Minister and the Railway Board have visited the district, and although I must admit that there is a possibility of disappointment on the platinum fields, machinery has already been erected at three mines, and two mines are already working. According to the reports I have read, a good profit is made, and the hope is fostered that the mines will be further developed. The greatest difficulty at present is transport. It seems to be quite clear that most railways are laid to serve the mines. That was the case at Kimberley and the Witwatersrand (also with regard to the line to Delagoa Bay), and a line was even built from Springs to Krugersdorp before the main lines were completed. Where there is mining industry, railways are necessary. My plea, however, is not only based on the development of the platinum fields, because asbestos and chiefly chrome is found in the same district. The hon. Minister visited one of the chrome mines. As we are on the point of establishing a large iron and steel industry, chrome will become more and more necessary. At Vereemging already a considerable quantity is used. The asbestos in my constituency cannot compete with the asbestos mines in the vicinity of the railways. I am told that 80 per cent. of the cost of the administration must be placed to the account of transport. It is, therefore, hardly necessary for me to show the need of railway communication. The second portion of my amendment aims at a shorter route between Graspoort and Ohrigstad. This line is wanted for the mines and for agriculture. There are several low-grade mines which can be mentioned, and to keep them going it is necessary that expenses he reduced as much as possible. It will then be easy to bring agricultural products to the mines. The third line mentioned is also necessary. In the petitions drawn up, only one small railway is mentioned. The people who live there have to climb a hill in order to get to the train. The Crocodile River valley is divided into small farms, and farmers there have the greatest difficulty in transferring their agricultural products to the railway. Mow they ask that a small railway be laid for a distance of about 18 miles, so that they may have their goods carried easily and cheaply to the market. They are all small farmers who require their animals for the cultivation of the ground, and it will be a great advantage to them if they can be assisted. I understand that the Railway Administration is prepared to introduce a road motor service to assist the farmers, and I hope that the Minister will recommend that a small railway be built. All the lines proposed by me are really of importance to my constituency. They will not cost much, because they are for comparatively short distances. I hope that the Minister will ask the Railway Board to institute inquiries, and I am confident that it will not be long before the lines are built.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

I present my amendment with more confidence than I did last year, because since that time we have had the honour of a visit from the Railway Board. I want to make use of this opportunity in order to thank them. I am certain that after their visit they have been convinced of the vast possibilities of those parts, and that they realize that a railway is necessary. It is in the heart of the maize country, and I have the utmost confidence that this line will be placed on the new railway programme.

I second the amendment. I have the same confidence in doing so as the hon. mover, because this district is one of the best in the Union. We have heard of rye and oats being imported, but these products are produced in the vicinity of Orangeville. Products of lesser value, such as rice, sugar and coffee, are also grown there, but it is not done because it is not regarded as being profitable. If the Minister and the Railway Board themselves will investigate the matter, they will find that we have not exaggerated the good qualities at all.

I move, as a further amendment—

I want to thank the Minister and the Government for what they have already done, because, before the present Government came into office, these parts were entirely cut off. If the former Government had remained in the saddle the position would have remained the same, and we would never have got anything. We have already had something from the present Government, but last year we still found that the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger) wailed like a little child when the short railway line was granted to us.

Who built the line up to Klaver?

It was done in little bits in order to gratify certain interests, but they wished to go in another direction. There were 26,000 square miles without a railway, but now we at least have a small section. There are hon. members who will say that we are fortunate in getting that little piece, but it is only a drop in the ocean. There are stretches still 150 miles from the railway station, and there are people in my constituency who have not yet seen a train.

They’ll get a fright when they see it.

They are also taxpayers. People in the big towns have many conveniences, but people in the distant constituencies have to pay for them. That is why I have such pleasure in proposing this line, because we do not wish to be left behind any more. In those parts there are large diamond fields, perhaps larger than those in the Transvaal. If the line is extended from Klaver through Bitterfontein to South-West Africa, then South-West will be 500 miles nearer Cape Town than at present. The other line I propose is that from Klaver to Calvinia. We are indebted to the Government for having already instituted a road motor service. The third line I propose is from Tygerberg to Kalabaskraal, and I make this proposal because we also want a main line. Branch lines are dealt with on a different footing from main lines, and we deserve a main line.

I am very pleased indeed to have the opportunity of seconding this amendment. I believe that if the Railway Board were to make a complete survey of the district which would be served by these railways they would unanimously come to the decision to connect these railways with the existing lines, thereby having an alternative route to South-West Africa. We know that on frequent occasions the railway line from Cape Town to De Aar has to cope with such a large volume of traffic that great difficulties are found in doing so. If these lines are built it would not only relieve the main line of a tremendous amount of its traffic, but develop the country through which it has to pass, and which, in spite of all the droughts it has had, will, I am sure, yet be one of the most populous areas of South Africa in future. It has been found that there is vast mineral wealth in these areas. If the board considers building such lines through the north-western districts, I feel sure they will decide in favour of building such a line and developing the lines mentioned in the motion.

I move, us a further amendment—

The line I am advocating is well-known to the Minister and the board, and, therefore, it is needless for me to repeat what I have said on the subject on previous occasions. The line will traverse a country unsurpassed for the production of wheat, which is so sorely needed The cost of construction would be very small as the line would go over practically level country, and would be only about 27 miles in length. It would also be a means of connecting Cape Town to Port Elizabeth via Caledon, and would shorten the distance between these two ports by approximately 50 miles. Although the Swellendam and Bredasdorp districts have had a poor season this year, the Railway Department found a difficulty in coping with the traffic from these districts, which extends from Swellendam to Caledon. This is a sure sign that there is still room for huge development in this area. Previous speakers all extolled the potentialities of their various districts, but I submit there is not one district which can surpass the district, the claims of which I have been advocating, and I commend my amendment to the Minister and the board for their favourable consideration.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

I hope that the rules of the House will not be so amended that it will be impossible for members to introduce motions from year to year with regard to the laying of railways, because the majority of members usually take “Hansard” with them when they go back to their constituencies in order to show that they have pleaded for the motion of most importance to their electors. If they did not do that they would get into trouble. Nonsense is spoken in the House on many subjects, and if the rules have to be altered so that only necessary speeches are made, the session will last at the most for three weeks or a month. If we want to go into the matter we will find that the following edition of “Hansard” is being taken up so quickly that there will be a shortage. All the hon. members who have spoken will want to send “Hansard” to their constituencies in order to prove how well they have done their duty. With regard to my particular motion, it is hardly necessary to do that, because the Minister understands the position there. The present Government is not the same as the former, which never paid its debts. The present Government has already granted payments and is paying the old debts of the former Government by means of instalments. I want to ask the Minister to pay off a further instalment by building the line I propose. If people ever appreciated the value of irrigation then it was at the time of the drought. Along the Oliphants River much was produced, and that in spite of the drought which existed. As a result of irrigation, the railway will be provided, in good and in bad years, with freight, and I can assure the Minister that there will be no shortfall on this line. I hope that hon. members will follow the example set by Pietersburg and send the statistics to the Railway Board. The Railway Board is familiar with the position to-day, and I know, therefore, that the line I propose will be placed on the following railway programme.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

This is not the first time that I move this motion, but I know that the House listens with pleasure to a motion having regard to a railway for Marico. Marico is one of the most important districts in the Union. It is so attractive that it formed one of the three largest settlements of the voortrekkers in the Transvaal. The district is very well developed today, and it is not one of those districts which requires a railway in winter to transfer its sheep to other parts. On the contrary, it is one of the districts which can carry many thousands of sheep through the winter, and if the line is built then farmers on other portions of the country will have the opportunity of sending their sheep in times of drought to the bushveld of Marico, where the grass is very good and is very nourishing. One of the reasons why we so badly want the railway from Lichtenburg to Zeerust is that those parts of Lichtenburg through which the railway will run is one of the foremost maize-producing districts in the Transvaal. Where the railway crosses over to the district of Marico there one finds Klein Marico, where manganese and fluospar lies undeveloped on account of the lack of railway. The line I am asking for also is only 40 miles long. If the line is built then the inhabitants of Klein Marico Valley may have an opportunity of conveying their perishable produce, such as citrus and soft fruits, and in addition to that, corn can be grown and sheep farming can be carried on. The farmers there are small, but intensive farming is seriously handicapped by reason of the lack of proper transport. Fruit intended for export will be able to be sent away as soon as the line has been completed. The hon. member for Potchefstroom (the Rev. Mr. Fick) has reminded me of the new diamond fields which have been discovered, but Marico wants a railway for agricultural and industrial development. I am certain that if the line is built, then the slate roofs in Pretoria and other large towns will not be destroyed by hail any more, because the district, with its developed slate flutes, can deliver natural slate of which fine roofs can be built. Even Cape Town will reap some benefit from the slate in the district of Marico, because Cape Town is a coast town and ought not to have zinc roofs. We have enough slate to provide the whole of South Africa. The other portion of my motion to provide the bushveld of Marico with railway connection has already been brought to the notice of the Railway Department, and the matter has been enquired into. If I may make use of the information at my disposal, then I may say that this portion of the district has made a good impression on the railway commissioners. The impression was so favourable that they felt aggrieved and disappointed that the limitation of funds would not allow the immediate building of the 40 miles of railway to the bushveld. I hope that the Minister will take my words to heart, and I want to remind him that all eyes in the bushveld are turned to him, and that the hope is fostered in Marico that the line will appear on the new railway programme. Those parts have soil as rich as any other portion of the Union, and I do not say that to flatter the district. Everybody who has been there knows it. Development can only go forward when the railway is built. Since last year our road motor service has spread considerably, and I want to make use of the opportunity of expressing the appreciation of my constituency for what has been done. I believe that there are already half a dozen lorries running there. At the same time it seems that the lorries are not adequate for heavy traffic. I note with pleasure that the Railway Board is of intention to provide us with heavier lorries, but I hope that provision will be made in the following railway programme for the railway I am pleading for. The Minister and the Railway Board can rest assured that the laying thereof will contribute considerably towards increase of railway profits.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment, on behalf of Mr. Le Roux—

This needs no bolstering up. It speaks for itself.

I second the amendment. The line proposed by the hon. member is one of the most important. It will establish connection between the north-west and its natural harbour, Mossel Bay. Unfortunately, our railways are built in such a manner that the midlands are not in touch with their harbours. Those districts are very fruitful and have a regular rainfall, and we have now to send all our produce through Naauwpoort or Worcester round to the North. That, naturally, is impossible. This line will bring us 200 miles nearer north. Every day there are two trains on the main line, and every day 200 train miles per train will be saved. The midlands will reap much benefit from the railway. We have passed through a period during which there was great congestion at Port Elizabeth where our wool goes, and the buyers and sellers were not able to give proper attention to our wool, with the result that farmers lost thousands of pounds. If the line is built the wool which is sold at Beaufort West and in the interior will be sent straight to Mossel Bay. Our farmers produce all sorts of articles which we can send to the North, but communication from the North to our natural harbours, Mossel Bay and Knysna, is non-existent. The farmers of Langkloof have to send their fruit for export back 200 miles to Port Elizabeth, while, if they had railway communication between Avontuur and Camfer, it could all go through Mossel Bay, which is at their front door.

I move, as a further amendment—

I do not need to elaborate on this question. The Railway Board is familiar with the circumstances. I just want to draw attention to the fact that a line is suggested from Hendriena. Naturally, Hendriena has as yet no railway, but I assume that the Minister will concede the request of the hon. member for Witbank (Mr. A. I. E. de Villiers), and build the railway he suggests, and I propose that this line link up with that.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

I can assure the Minister that we are grateful for the little bit of line granted us in the former programme, but in order to complete the thing the Minister ought to finish the other section also. Since it has become known that the section to Losberg would be built, not only has farming progressed, but also industries. Recently a company was formed in the Transvaal which enquired in the different foremost places in the Transvaal in Order to ascertain where to establish a condensed milk factory. Potchefstroom was eventually chosen, because, by means of the railway to Losberg, they can rest assured that the farmers of Losberg will provide them with milk which they require for the factory. But what is still necessary is a connection to the Johannesburg markets. There is also considerable ore deposit in the district and, having regard to the establishment of the iron and steel industry, it is important that the line be built I hope that the Minister will seriously consider the extension.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

This I have moved every year, and I will continue to move it until it is carried out, and attention is paid to the people of the northwest. I am more convinced than ever to-day of the necessity of the line. This line is not only necessary for the development of agriculture, but also in order to transport sheep in times of drought. As a result of the drought many well-established farmers lost their sheep and became poor whites. Fraserburg suffered very much by reason of the drought, but the position was intensified because of the lack of railway connections. One farmer there who had 3,000 sheep, has to-day about 100, and has virtually become a poor white. That is why the laying of the line is also necessary for conveying sheep in times of drought, and fodder such as mealies, in order to save the sheep’ Take the line from Victoria West to Calvinia. It is not only a paying line, but this year about 1½ million sheep were carried, and if the line had not been there those sheep would have been lost, and the country would have suffered direct damage to the extent of £2,000,000, and indirect damage to the extent of several millions. The Railway Board has promised to visit the spot, and I hope that they will soon go into the matter.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

It is not necessary to elaborate on the necessity of this line. The first line runs through a very good part of the country, capable of considerable development, and the only means thereto is a railway. In the old days people were afraid of railway lines, and they wanted to be as far away from them as possible, but to-day the rule is the nearer the better. It is not a long line, and will pay as well as any line in the country.

I second the amendment.

—I move, as a further amendment—

I feel that this is really the most important motion. Where the other amendments, although honest, were subjective and founded on subjective opinions, my amendment rests on the objective report of the Board of Trade and Industries, which again is based partly on the German report with regard to our iron and steel industry. That report says, viz., that the district for which I am asking a railway line has the best limestone necessary for the iron industry. About 32,400 tons of limestone will be necessary per annum. The idea was first to obtain the lime from Taungs, but in the reports attention is drawn to the fact that the Iron and Steel Corporation at Marble Hall in the Elands River district, has marked off claims where excellent limestone is available, and that if the railway is obtained that will reduce costs considerably. The distance to the diggings will be reduced by 209 miles if the lime is obtained there instead of a Taungs. All the motions have been of an entirely subjective nature, which will have to be dealt with a certain degree of care, but my motion is objective and based on an objective report. The Minister of Railways is undoubtedly convinced of the necessity for the line.

I second the amendment. The Minister of Railways is familiar with the details, and is probably convinced that the line through this territory will bring profits to the department.

I move, as a further amendment—

It is unnecessary to say anything on the motion The Railway Board is familiar with the conditions, and knows that these connections are of considerable importance.

I second the amendment. I have sympathy with the Minister, If he builds all these 40 lines as requested, then I think he deserves a pension for the rest of his life.

I move, as a further amendment—

I think that those who say nothing are much better off than those who talk so much. I therefore move.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

This area has been visited by the Railway Board who were tremendously impressed with the possibilities of the district concerned, and I am sure I do not need to say anything further to commend the merits of my amendment to the House.

I second the amendment.

I may say that I have listened with the greatest pleasure to the explanation of the wonderfully favourable conditions existing in the Union, and I am only sorry that my colleagues in the Cabinet were not all here to hear how advantageously the country is situated. We have heard nothing this afternoon of the difficulties in connection with land settlement, everything is particularly favourable. If it is all really true, we can be grateful that we live in South Africa. Any doubts I may have entertained as to a surplus during the current financial railway year have been entirely dissipated, after hearing of the favourable conditions throughout the Union. It seems to me the motion, with its many amendments, is a relic of the days when the different legislative bodies still had the say in railway construction. Hon. members have apparently forgotten that the position, according to Section 130 of the South Africa Act, has changed altogether, and that the Railway Board has been entrusted with the duty of coming to Parliament with the necessary proposals.

First to the Cabinet.

The original proposals must come from the Railway Board. Hon. members know to what trouble the Railway Board goes in investigating and instituting the necessary inquiries through railway officials, and I think they will agree that we do not make much progress at a discussion such as we have had this afternoon. I do not begrudge hon. members that they draw attention to the particular needs of their constituencies, but I regard it as an open question whether we get much further with these motions. On different occasions members have said that the Government must be careful in matters affecting capital expenditure, and I agree that we should be very careful in the future. If hon. members keep on clamouring for the construction of railways, an echo will be heard in the constituencies they represent, and now I ask them whether we can, having regard to the electors, come to realize clearly the necessity of increasing capital expenditure with the utmost caution. I do not think members will advance matters in that direction by continually clamouring for the construction of railways which, many of them know, there will be no justification for building for many years. Were there no alternative open to hon. members, I could have understood the position, but there is an alternative. There can be no doubt that the position with regard to railway construction has been radically altered by reason of the institution of road motor services for light and heavy traffic. This is a question which does not only affect South Africa, but which every portion of the civilized world has to face. Hon. members will not be surprised when I say that there are countries seriously considering whether the time has not arrived for breaking up branch lines, and transport all traffic to the main lines by means of road motor services.

Why don’t you still publish the figures with reference to branch lines?

The hon. member will have an opportunity later of attacking me on that point.

Because you are afraid, that is what it comes to.

He will not deny that a commission which thoroughly investigated the matter made a report to that effect. I repeat that it is being seriously considered in various parts of the world whether the time has not arrived for breaking up non-paying branch lines. I decidedly do not propose to do that, because in South Africa we have our peculiar circumstances and difficulties, but it is certain that the Government and the Railway Administration will in future have to consider very carefully all proposals, in order to ascertain whether the particular districts cannot be served as regards light traffic with 2 and 2½ ton motors. With regard to heavy traffic, e.g., maize, cotton, fruit, and other articles available for two or three months during the year, the Government and the Administration will have to consider whether the articles mentioned cannot be conveyed by means of heavy lorries, and whether that is not all the districts require in the circumstances.

Will the Government build the roads?

No, for the simple reason that it is not entrusted to us, but to the provincial councils. We do not propose to butt in on the provincial councils, because they are capable enough of making due provision. I do not want to go into the merits of the particular lines proposed, but I can promise that they will be considered when the Railway Board recommends the next railway programme. The Government has no objection to accepting the motion and the amendments. Hon. members will realize that there can be no programme for the construction of new lines until the present railway programme has been completed.

Amendments put and agreed to.

Motion, as amended, put and agreed to, viz.—

With reference to notice of motion No. II., I ask leave to postpone it till 3rd May.

If the hon. member does not wish to move it now, he can give notice to-morrow that he will move it on a future date.

I move—

This is practically one of those formal things, and I would like to have it referred to the Select Committee on Native Affairs as soon as possible. It is not really necessary for me to say anything more about this.