Mr.

Speaker, I move—

In view of the strong influence of developments in the economy on railway finances, I should like to commence by giving the House a brief review of the present economic situation in so far as it has a bearing on the budget which I am about to present.

The downward phase of the business cycle that the South African economy had experienced since the third quarter of 1974, was arrested towards the end of 1977, when a levelling-out tendency became evident. This was principally a result of the positive influence of increased exports on the current account of the balance of payments.

Against the background of a relatively stronger balance of payments position, and indications of a moderate levelling-off in the rate of inflation, selective measures were announced by my colleague, the Minister of Finance, in his budget for 1978-’79 in order to bring about a rise in consumer spending, and further stimulate the economy. The latest economic indicators reveal that the economy is already in a recovery phase, with an estimated increase in the real gross domestic product of approximately 2,5% for 1978.

Although this improvement in the economic climate has had a favourable effect on the Administration’s earnings, in particular in respect of harbour and air traffic and to a lesser degree low-rated goods conveyed by rail, high-rated rail traffic, contrary to what would normally be expected in such circumstances, reflected a decrease on the volumes of the previous year. This negative trend in respect of high-rated traffic is partly attributable to the effects of the Road Transportation Act, 1977, that came into operation in January 1978.

The Administration was still subjected to severe cost pressures. In this regard, the increases in the administered prices of, inter alia, steel, coal, electricity and fuel in particular exerted a strong upward pressure on expenditure. Thanks to determined efforts in setting and pursuing specific counter objectives—for instance the curtailing of labour costs, more effective utilization of materials, and reducing the losses on uneconomic services—the effects of cost rises have been largely neutralized.

The indications are that in 1979 the emphasis will be placed to a greater extent on consumer spending to provide the necessary stimulus for an acceleration of economic growth. This, together with a relatively low level of inventories and a measure of import replacement, should accelerate domestic economic activity. Better utilization of production capacity can also bring about a lowering of unit costs, with a resultant slackening of cost pressures. Although the expected increase in demand should result in an increase in imports during the coming financial year, the current account of the balance of payments should remain positive, mainly as a result of sustained high export volumes, as well as the hardening of the price of gold and other commodities. The expected economic recovery should also bring about an improvement in the capital account and it is, therefore, not expected that the balance of payments will be a retarding factor in economic growth during 1979-’80.

Although the rate of inflation is still at a relatively high level, it is expected that it will, after the absorption of the general sales tax and the expected fall in unit costs, adjust gradually downwards.

Taking all these factors into account, the consensus is that the growth rate will be reasonably strong, particularly in the mining, commercial and industrial sectors. Notwithstanding an expected decline in the contribution of the agricultural sector, it can be expected that an economic growth rate of approximately 3,5% will be achieved during 1979-’80.

Mr. Speaker, before coming to the budget for next year, I shall review some of the more important aspects of the Administration’s activities during the financial year now drawing to a close.

Passenger Services

Except for a slight increase in third class journeys on suburban services, all other classes of rail travel continued the downward trend of previous years, the biggest drop being in respect of first class main-line journeys. This means that the losses being sustained on these largely socio-economic services are increasing to such an extent as to become an undue burden on other railway users.

While these trends reflect the slow economic recovery during the year, it would appear also that the travelling public is still reluctant to change its accustomed travel patterns and, in spite of the oil crisis and the higher cost of fuel, still prefers to travel by private motor-car. The equation of the supply of passenger services to demand has therefore continued to receive close attention. During the current financial year a further 32 long-distance and 47 suburban trains were cancelled, while passenger accommodation on 15 mixed trains was also curtailed. On the other hand, a commencement was made with the introduction of 14-coach suburban train sets on the Reef, which has brought about relief in as far as overcrowding of trains is concerned.

Goods Services

During the period April to December 1978 the total tonnage of revenue-earning goods traffic increased by 2,1% to 114,9 million tons compared with the same period in 1977. Again no problems were experienced in carrying all traffic offering.

The increased tonnage conveyed was, however, solely due to a 2,7% increase in the volume of low-rated traffic, particularly in respect of coal. Although high-rated traffic fell by 1,8% during the first nine months of the current financial year, compared with the same period of 1977, this decline was not as marked as that experienced during the 1977-’78 financial year when a decrease of 8,2% was recorded. This relative improvement can be ascribed largely to the moderate economic upswing experienced this year. Nevertheless, the change in the ratio of high to low-rated traffic will mean a revenue loss of some R10,4 million for the financial year.

Pipelines

During the period April to December 1978 the total quantity of crude oil and refined petroleum products conveyed by pipeline increased by 11%, compared with the same period of 1977.

Work on the additional pipeline from Durban to the Witwatersrand, including the Witbank extension, is expected to be completed this month.

Road Transport Services

The number of passengers conveyed by the Department’s Road Transport Services during the first nine months of the current financial year declined by almost 15%. Goods tonnages also reflected a decrease of some 13%.

The decrease in the number of passengers can be attributed partly to the formation of lift clubs and to the handling over of passenger services to Bophuthatswana. The decline in goods traffic is to a degree due to the prevailing economic climate and the effect of relaxations in favour of private hauliers in terms of the Road Transportation Act, 1977.

The continued tendency to use private transport for the conveyance of livestock is reflected in the decrease of almost 45% recorded for this traffic.

Harbours

The downward trend in the tonnage of general cargo landed has reached a turning point, and an increase of 1,3% was recorded during the period April to December 1978 as compared with the corresponding period of the previous year. The increase resulted mainly from higher tonnages of general merchandise and timber imports. The tonnage of general cargo shipped increased by some 7,5%, mainly on account of higher volumes of general merchandise, steel and deciduous fruit.

Bulk cargo shipped increased by 10%, largely as a result of improved exports of coal, ores and minerals. Coal exports through Richards Bay since its inauguration in April total 29 million tons, while iron ore exports through Saldanha Bay since April amount to 21 million tons. The combined value of foreign exchange earned from exports through these two harbours now exceeds R800 million.

It has been decided to adjust, with effect from 1 February 1979, the berth occupancy charge which is levied on ships calling at South African ports for repairs only. For vessels in excess of 100 000 gross register tons the charge per metric ton per day is reduced from 0,4c to 0,2c. This step should serve to further stimulate the South African ship repair industry and enhance its foreign currency earning potential.

With the introduction of containerization certain minor teething troubles were encountered, as is the case with any project of such magnitude. These, however, stemmed mainly from port users not familiarizing themselves timeously with the procedural and documentation requirements of the new system. The traffic flow rate also fell short of the Conference Lines’ projections. However, with the increase in the number of containers handled during the second half of 1978, it is expected that the deep sea traffic projections will be attained by about June this year. Coastwise containerized traffic is not expected to reach the projected figure until about 1983. Despite these problems, the success achieved with large-scale containerization, officially introduced 20 months ago, has exceeded all expectations. Handling rates achieved at the three major South African ports exceed those of foreign terminals.

Inland container traffic has shown a consistent increase. At the City Deep terminal the number of containers handled during November and December 1978 totalled nearly 38 400, an increase of 45% over the total for the same months of 1977.

The special box rates for containerized traffic originally introduced between Durban and City Deep were also extended to such traffic between City Deep and Cape Town, Port Elizabeth and East London.

Airways

The recovery in the South African Airways’ finances, mention of which was made last year, was maintained throughout the first nine months of the current financial year, to the extent that the anticipated surplus of R1,1 million was increased to R31,9 million. The airline’s growth pattern on most of the international services has shown an upward trend and it is expected that this should continue in the coming financial year.

In order to enlarge S.A. Airways’ market share further and to meet demands, it has been decided to introduce an additional weekly flight to Europe and one to New York with effect from 1 April 1979, and to increase the weekly frequency to London to nine in November 1979. These additional services will in due course have the effect that the capacity of the existing fleet will be insufficient to meet requirements. Consequently, it has been decided to place an order for two additional B747 B aircraft for delivery in October 1980 and January 1981.

Although the results of the domestic services proved to be unsatisfactory for the major part of 1978, there have been encouraging signs of revival since June 1978 when positive growth rates were reflected.

As from January 1979, incentive fares were introduced on Saturdays on the domestic services. This should help to stimulate the local market.

Staff

An important feature of the past year has been the sustained efforts to improve working methods and procedures, with a smaller but more effective labour force as goal. The staff as a whole, as well as the various Staff Associations, responded positively and in view of the success achieved in reducing labour costs without loss of productivity, the staff were compensated by way of a staff saving bonus paid out at the end of January 1979. The amount paid to individual members of the staff was calculated as a percentage of their fixed remuneration, the highest percentage going to the lower income groups.

In order to keep pace with developments in the field of human sciences, and because of the need to intensify the identification of potential, develop managerial skills and provide functional as well as higher level training, a manpower section with full managerial status was created on 1 January 1979. Its principal function will be the evaluation, development and training of personnel, the co-ordination of organization and work studies, the provision of psychological services, and personnel research and information, i.e. the more professional aspects of personnel management.

As I announced towards the end of last year, railway personnel will be granted a salary/wage increase from the April 1979 pay month to compensate them to some extent for the rise in the cost of living. In the case of Whites the increase will be 10%, and with a view to the narrowing of the wage gap the increase will be 12,5% in the case of Coloureds and Indians and 15% for Blacks.

It has also been decided to increase, with effect from 1 April 1979, the annuities payable to all railway pensioners by 10%, which will be reduced by the normal annual 2% enhancement.

I am happy to announce that the Administration has decided to make certain concessions to National Servicemen who have completed their initial 24 months’ compulsory training in that they are to be accorded the same incremental progression, seniority, etc. they would have enjoyed had they entered the Service prior to the commencement of their military training, provided they join the Service within a stipulated period.

Management by objectives

Mr. Speaker, in my introductory remarks I referred to certain counter-objectives that were set during the year in order to neutralize the effects of cost rises on the Administration’s finances. For some time now an important aspect of overall managerial policy has been to concentrate on the application of scientific management principles. For this reason the personnel development centres to which I referred in past years were introduced.

As the program progressed, more and more members of the staff attended management seminars, leading to a growing core of trained and motivated staff in all divisions of the Service. This made it possible to broaden the scope for setting specific objectives in all branches and to ensure greater effectiveness in implementing action to attain the overall goal aimed at. If positive results are to be achieved in a corporate effort of this nature, the fullest co-operation of all employees is essential. The targets set must, however, be reasonable, clearly understood and acceptable.

This ideal is difficult to achieve in an extensive and complex organization such as the Railways. The process of developing new norms and attuning staff at all levels to the need for improving on past performances must inevitably take time. The progress made and the achievements to date bear evidence of the influence of management training and the dedication in all ranks.

Prevention of Accidents

Safety of operation is an important component of the efficient management of any transport undertaking. The South African Railways is fully aware of its public responsibility in this regard and is unremitting in its efforts to improve on its safety record.

Train accidents during the 1977-’78 financial year were 17% less than in the previous year. Collisions between trains decreased by 22%, while derailments decreased by a record 16%. Passenger fatalities fell from one in every 15,5 million passenger journeys to one in 33,9 million. In the first nine months of the current financial year no passengers were killed or seriously injured.

While modern signalling, communication, operating and permanent way maintenance techniques, as well as improved stability of rolling stock, have played an important role, the human element is still of the utmost importance in preventing accidents. In this respect the recent improvement in the safety achievement can be attributed to a system of motivational meetings and symposiums at all levels and to the introduction of the zoning scheme, which has considerably reduced shunting movements.

Staff at the various centres compete enthusiastically for the trophies that are awarded for safety records. In fact, the keen competition for these trophies has undoubtedly contributed to the 16% drop in yard accidents recorded during 1977-’78.

The Oil Energy Crisis

As hon. members know, my colleague, the Minister of Economic Affairs and of Environmental Planning and Energy, recently appointed a working group to investigate the possibilities of fuel saving in view of the present world fuel crisis arising mainly from the political problems in Iran.

As an important energy user the Railways is co-operating fully in the endeavours to find a solution to the problems involved. Hon. members will no doubt be interested to learn to what extent the South African Railways is dependent on imported and local energy sources in relation to the rest of the transport sector of our economy.

Of the total national consumption of petroleum products the transport sector absorbs in all approximately 70%. The Department’s rail, road and air services, on the other hand, use only some 9,5% of the total national consumption. In the case of petrol, the Department’s share is a mere 0,5% of the total national consumption while in the case of diesel fuel the Department’s road and rail services use some 3 and 13%, respectively, of the national consumption. The agricultural sector accounts for 25,6% and non-railway road transport for 22,6% of the country’s total diesel fuel consumption.

The efficient use of imported fuel by the various transport modes is, however, of paramount importance in determining priorities in regard to its allocation in the best interests of the country. In this regard I must point out that independent overseas research has proved that in relation to energy utilization, the railway is the most efficient form of land transport. This advantage flows mainly from the low rolling resistance of a steel wheel on a steel rail.

A study conducted by the Department of Environmental Planning and Energy, as well as the Railways’ statistics, reveals that on average road transport consumes nine times as much diesel fuel as rail transport to convey the same tonnage. The Railways, however, also uses steam and electric traction, and, in fact, only 35% of rail traffic is moved by diesel traction. According to the Department’s planning, approximately 80% of all its traffic will, ton-kilometre wise, be hauled by electric traction within the next four or five years.

It follows, therefore, that the movement of goods and passengers by rail would obviously be of immense strategic value should the country be placed in the position of having to curtail its present fuel consumption.

†Improvements in Operating Techniques

As rail transport is becoming more capital intensive, it is essential that available equipment be used as efficiently as possible in order to provide an economic service. New operating techniques and innovations are constantly sought and applied in order to achieve this aim.

It has, for instance, been decided to modify a number of trucks with a view to providing improved loading and thus put these vehicles to more profitable use. The increase in the loads will result in fewer but heavier trains, a more expeditious flow of traffic through sections and a saving in manpower and maintenance costs. Considerable success has, for instance, already been achieved in the case of timber traffic.

The operation of longer trains with better payloads is another method by which the Administration endeavours to improve the efficiency of its freight service.

On the recommendation of the Air Brake Task Group referred to in my previous budget speech, 1 000 FZ trucks which are at present on order, as well as 110 XFD tank wagons already in service for the conveyance of phosphoric acid from Phalaborwa to Richards Bay, will be equipped with air brakes. This enables us to introduce trains carrying 2 000 net tons of export maize from the Orange Free State to East London, while the converted tank wagons will also allow the running of 49-truck trains instead of the present 28.

The conveyance of goods in block loads is one of the main contributory factors towards increased productivity. In order to bring about a better block load operation, the zoning system for traffic is being expanded on a continuing basis.

Capital Projects

Steady progress was made throughout the past year with the completion of capital projects. These included the installation of centralized traffic control and colour-light signalling, and the electrification, doubling and quadrupling of various sections of line. The extensive yard remodelling project at Saaiwater for improving the flow of block load coal traffic from the Transvaal coal fields, was completed in September 1978.

Important railway works expected to be completed during the coming year include the new electrified double line from Nyanga to Mitchell’s Plain; centralized traffic control and related track improvements on the Warrenton – Postmasburg – Hotazel and Witbank – Nelspruit sections; and the doubling of the section Charlestown – Vooruitsig. In addition, several major improvement schemes are in hand in the Durban area. These involve stage 3 of the new passenger station, which includes the main-line station building and concourses, three main-line and two suburban platforms, additional tracks between the new station and Berea Road; relocation of Berea Road station and provision of additional platforms; installation of centralized traffic control between Booth and Cato Ridge; and facilities for container traffic, as well as a goods depot, at Bayhead. Some of these facilities are already partly in use.

As regards new equipment, altogether 131 main-line and 102 suburban coaches were placed in service. Due to a shortage of passenger guards’ vans, 140 old coaches recommended for scrapping are being converted to passenger guards’ vans. This conversion will realize a saving of R10,9 million compared with the cost of new vehicles.

During the period April to December 1978 altogether 2 996 goods vehicles of various types were placed in service. The locomotive fleet was increased during the same period by 94 electric and 42 diesel locomotives.

During the year two harbour tugs were placed in service, as well as two container wharf cranes at Durban harbour and one at Port Elizabeth. Delivery of two additional tugs is expected this month while four further tugs are expected to be delivered between June 1980 and June 1981.

Capital Investment Program

The Capital Budget for the financial year 1979-’80 provides for infrastructural development to the extent of R1 407,5 million. This amount is only 1,5% in excess of the amount budgeted for in 1978-’79.

In accordance with the policy of becoming more reliant on own resources for the funding of capital improvements, in all some R650 million is being found from the Administration’s own loan sources and internal appropriations.

The estimates provide for the following major new works—

1. 1. Electrification of the section Beaufort West - De Aar at a cost of R19 million. On completion of this project only the 238 km section between Beaconsfield and De Aar of the 1 680 km line between Pretoria and Cape Town via Kimberley will remain to be electrified.
2. 2. Improvement of the carrying capacity of the Cato Ridge - Ladysmith section at a cost of about R30 million.
3. 3. Stage 2 of the goods facilities at Capital Park to serve the Pretoria area at a cost of R8,5 million.
4. 4. The construction of a rail-over-rail bridge at Mitchell Street, Pretoria, involving expenditure of R8,8 million.
5. 5. The provision of an electric locomotive shed and a carriage and wagon repair depot at Bapsfontein at a total cost of R12,5 million.

As regards housing, the estimates for the coming year provide for an amount of R58 million to be spent on the 100% house ownership scheme for all staff. Over and above this amount, some R10,8 million is available out of capital redemption on loans granted previously and the staffs own contributions to the House Ownership Fund. Under the House Ownership Scheme with Pension Fund Assistance, R78 million is made available out of pension funds plus an estimated R10,7 million representing capital redemption on previous loans under the scheme. A further R20,8 million is to be spent on departmental housing.

New items of rolling stock for which provision is made in the estimates include 50 class 6E-1 electric locomotives. At the same time 100 petrol tank wagons and two 85-ton diesel hydraulic breakdown cranes are provided for, while 2 500 drop-sided wagons, type DZ, are being converted to container wagons at a cost of about R14 million.

An additional dredger is to be acquired for Richards Bay harbour at a cost of R18 million.

As a result of the increased allocation of export coal to 40 million tons per year over a period of 30 years, investigations have already been carried out in order to establish the requirements for moving that volume, in addition to other traffic, from the Transvaal coal fields for export through Richards Bay harbour at the lowest possible cost. The first step will involve increasing the line capacity to some 30 million tons and thereafter to 40 million tons per year. The provisional target dates are 1982-’83 for the first stage and 1985-’86 for the second stage. The first stage can be achieved by operating 100-truck trains with 4 locomotives but this will need line capacity improvements between Broodsnyersplaas and Ermelo, new yards at Ermelo and Richards Bay and increased loop lengths at selected points to accommodate the long trains between Ermelo and Richards Bay. The second stage can be achieved by partial twinning, and regarding of the line, which will make possible the running of trains in excess of 100 trucks. An additional quay is also required at Richards Bay for the second stage but the quay wall may have to be built for the first stage to permit optimum use of the area behind it for storage.

Operating Results for 1978-’79

Based on the performance for the first nine months, revenue for 1978-’79 is now estimated at R3 174,3 million—some R53,4 million more than the original estimate. On the other hand it is expected that expenditure will remain on the level estimated for at the beginning of the year.

The year is expected to close with a surplus of R53,2 million instead of the small deficit of R168 000 originally budgeted for. This surplus will be transferred to the Rates Equalization Fund.

Prospects for 1979-’80

In line with the expected acceleration in economic activities during 1979-’80 and the resultant improved work opportunities, commuter journeys should advance by approximately 4%. In contrast with the decrease experienced during 1978-’79, the more stringent fuel conservation measures should have a favourable effect on main-line passenger traffic in 1979-’80. Second and third-class journeys are expected to increase by 2 and 3%, respectively, while first class traffic should not decline farther.

An increase of 7,6% in goods, traffic is budgeted for. This is made up of an expected increase of 3,3% in general goods traffic and 18,9% in the volume of coal traffic. Taking into account the expected improvements in the activities of especially the commercial and industrial sectors, high-rated traffic should increase by approximately 4,2%. Low-rated traffic is estimated to advance by 8,1%, notwithstanding an expected smaller grain harvest and a consequent decline in export maize. Indications are that both Richards Bay and Durban will again be used to capacity as far as export coal facilities are concerned. The volume of coal exports, including a small quantity through Maputo, should advance from 14,8 million tons during 1978-’79 to more than 22 million tons in 1979-’80, an increase of 51%. Furthermore, the conveyance of manganese, chrome and iron ore for local consumption is expected to show a substantial increase, while iron ore exports should grow by 9,6%.

It is anticipated that overall import volumes will increase by 8% during the coming financial year and exports by 6%, while values will increase by 16 and 10%, respectively.

The positive trend in the internal passenger services of the Airways experienced during recent months should be maintained during the ensuing financial year. Freight and external passenger services are also expected to show a satisfactory growth rate.

It is expected that the conveyance of petroleum products will decline as a result of fuel conservation measures. This will have a detrimental effect on pipelines earnings.

Based on the foregoing, revenue from all sources for the year 1979-’80 is expected to amount to approximately R3 373,7 million. Expenditure on the other hand, including R178,2 million in respect of net revenue appropriations, is expected to total some R3 575 million. This figure represents an increase of R454 million (or 14,5%) on the revised estimates for 1978-’79 which can be attributed mainly to increased labour costs, and the continued ebcalation in the prices of notably petroleum products, coal, electricity and steel. The increased labour costs will arise largely from the salary/wage increases totalling some R125 million being granted with effect from the April 1979 pay-month.

With expenditure at R3 575 million and revenue at only R3 373,7 million a shortfall of R201,3 million is at this stage envisaged for the financial year 1979-’80. This shortfall does not include the cost of the additional six cents per litre payable for fuel from 23 February 1979. The additional expenditure will amount to approximately R70 million. It is confidently expected that the recent increases in fuel prices will result in additional traffic for the Railways, which should tend to neutralize the additional expenditure to some extent.

Although the Rates Equalization Fund will have a credit balance of the order of R115 million after the estimated surplus of R53,2 million on the current year’s working has been transferred to the Fund, the balance represents only 3,2% of the present level of annual expenditure. This figure clearly indicates that the balance in the Fund is barely adequate to meet contingencies that may arise and could, therefore, at the most be utilized for the funding of normal working expenditure on a temporary basis.

As indicated earlier, the economy is at the present point in time still in the initial stage of revival following the longest recessionary period since World War II. Hon. members will, therefore, appreciate that notwithstanding a large deficit looming for the financial year 1979-’80 it is not the appropriate time to increase rail tariffs. The economic revival is largely dependent upon an increase in consumer demand, and higher tariffs at this stage will not only put pressure on the cost structure of the country but will also be detrimental to an increase in demand which is expected to flow from the improved consumer spending ability of the general public. However, it is my intention to take certain positive measures during the course of this year which will be aimed at reducing the deficit as far as possible.

The initial results of the Department’s efforts to increase productivity by the application of the basic principles of the system of Management by objectives to which I have referred earlier in my speech, were so encouraging that I am confident that the positive results achieved during 1978-’79 could in all probability be maintained in 1979-’80. This should lead to a further reduction in expenditure.

Last year I mentioned that I would be giving further attention to the problem of uneconomic socio-economic rail services. The loss on passenger services for the financial year 1977-’78 amounted to R286 million and it is estimated that the loss may be as much as R350 million for the financial year 1979-’80. In an effort to obtain financial relief from the heavy losses sustained annually in providing such services I submitted a memorandum to the Cabinet during the second half of last year. In discussions with my colleague, the Minister of Finance, we decided that a committee be appointed to investigate and report on certain aspects of the matter.

Prof. Dr. D. G. Franzsen of the University of Stellenbosch and Dr. S. S. Brand, Economic Adviser to the Prime Minister, have kindly consented to serve on the Committee. Prof. Franzsen will be Chairman and Dr. Brand Vice-Chairman. The Committee will further consist of three representatives of the Railways and three representatives of the Department of Finance and the Treasury. The terms of reference of the Committee will be as follows:

To investigate, report on and make recommendations in regard to—

1. (i) the present financial position of rail passenger services of the South African Railways;
2. (ii) the rationale, as perceived in the broader interest of the country, of Government compensation in respect of the socio-economic component of passenger services for the South African Railways;
3. (iii) the description and identification of the socio-economic component of these services;
4. (iv)
   1. (a) the method of quantification thereof and the mechanism whereby compensation will be granted; and
   2. (b) when a commencement is to be made with this,
      should it be established that justification exists for Government compensation in respect of socio-economic rail passenger services; and
5. (v) the effect of any Government compensation in this respect on the Railways’ operating results in general and any changed financial relations with the Treasury on these grounds.

The Committee is being requested to report within two months, if possible, but not later than the end of May.

It is clear that the timing and order of any tariff increase that may become necessary later in the financial year will to a great extent depend on the performance of the national economy in the months ahead, the success of further curtailment of expenditure and the assistance coming from the Central Government with regard to uneconomic socio-economic rail services. Further announcements in this regard will be made at the appropriate time.

I am sure that everyone will appreciate this approach. In an effort to assist in providing further stimulus to the expected economic upturn, I have also examined specific areas in which it may be possible for the Department to make concessions to its customers—even in the face of the anticipated deficit on the Railways’ working results. I have decided to do so in the expectation that such concessions will also serve to encourage a greater measure of rail support, thereby not only eventually increasing revenue but, more important at this stage, bringing about a better utilization of our energy resources.

The concessions I have in mind are the following—

1. 1. The existing rebate on cartage charges for the delivery or collection of containers after normal business hours will be increased to 15% for after-hour acceptance of deliveries, and to 25% where customers receive and pack or unpack containers during such hours. In instances where customers specifically undertake to remain open after normal hours, the rebate will apply both during and after working hours. The regulation governing free periods and detention charges on containers will be amended to enable clients to make full use of these concessions.
2. 2. The surcharges on goods conveyed in mechanically refrigerated trucks and on express goods traffic, will be reduced from 25, 33⅓ and 50% to 15, 20 and 25%, respectively.
3. 3. In respect of the conveyance of small animals in the new double-deck trucks, the applicable rate will be approximately one-third less than the normal rate. Should the three-deck truck now being developed prove successful, the rate for conveyance of livestock in this truck will be approximately half the normal rate.
4. 4. An extension of the free period allowed on trucks, particularly in the case of customers situated some distance from stations, is being investigated.
5. 5. Furthermore, in order to generate additional port traffic I have decided to grant a substantial reduction in the charge for the transhipment of international containers.

Although in the short-term these measures may result in decreased revenue, this should be compensated for in the long-term. In the interests of the country I am prepared to accept this temporary disadvantage to the Railways.

To sum up, the Department was faced during the past year, and is still faced, with substantial increases in the costs of energy, labour and material. In addition it has to shoulder the heavy burden of providing un-remunerative socio-economic services and has to contend with a constant erosion of its share of the transport market. Notwithstanding this, the Department must ensure that revenue will be sufficient to meet its working commitments.

These factors would normally have made an early increase in rates inevitable. It is clear to me, however, that any increase in tariffs at this stage will have such a harmful effect on the revival in the economy that such action must be postponed for as long as possible. I have decided, therefore, first to exhaust all other reasonable means to make up the expected shortfall in the accounts before resorting to an adjustment of rates and fares.

Firstly, I am looking at possible further savings. In this regard I know that I can rely on a motivated management and staff to continue their efforts to reduce operating costs and increase revenue.

Secondly, the efforts to reduce the Administration’s liability for uneconomic socio-economic services must still be concluded.

Finally, I hope that my decision rather to seek ways of generating additional traffic will have the desired effect. The success of these measures depends to a large extent on the cooperation of the private sector and I appeal to it for support in this approach, which can only redound to our mutual benefit.

Appreciation

I wish to take the opportunity to express my sincere appreciation to the General Manager and every member of the staff for their sustained efforts in the past year to keep the wheels turning. But for the positive response of the staff, the success achieved in the campaign to reduce labour costs without sacrificing productivity, would not have been possible. I have every confidence that they will face the challenges that will confront us in the year ahead with the same loyalty and devotion. I am also indebted to the Railway Commissioners for the way in which they have assisted me; their advice and cooperation have been of great value to me.

Tabling

Mr. Speaker, I now lay upon the Table—

1. (1) Memorandum setting out the estimated results of working of the South African Railways and Harbours for the financial year 1978-’79 and anticipated revenue and expenditure for the year 1979-’80, together with the latest traffic and other statistics [W.P. A.—’79]; and
2. (2) Statements of the Estimated Revenue and Expenditure of the South African Railways and Harbours for the year ending 31 March 1980, and Statements of the Original and Revised Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the year ending 31 March 1979 [R.P. 10—’79].

Mr. Speaker, I must say that it is with some surprise I am able to say today that I believe the hon. the Minister has presented us with a very positive budget Earlier this week I was asked to give members of the Press an idea of what I thought the budget was going to be like. Then I felt that the hon. the Minister was going to run true to form, because for as long as I have been in this House, we have had very bad news indeed every year when the Railways and Harbours budget was presented. So perhaps I can term this budget the “good news” budget, because I believe that at last the hon. the Minister is becoming aware of his responsibilities in the fight against inflation. In the face of and in spite of rising costs of energy, materials and labour, the hon. the Minister has decided to take the chance of taking positive action to stimulate business and to present this House with a budget that does not entail tariff increases. I should perhaps remind hon. members that if one takes the 1976 budget as a base, one will see that tariffs have increased by something over 50% since that time. So this is a very welcome new note the hon. the Minister is striking—I want to emphasize that. There are many other positive aspects of the hon. the Minister’s budget speech. For instance, I believe rationalization of passenger services is long overdue. Consequently I welcome the appointment of the committee under Professor Franzsen to look into the whole question of passenger services. There is welcome relief for the ship repair industry and for livestock farmers in this budget—all of which is good news. I am very pleased to admit my surprise. I do not think there are many people in South Africa with any knowledge of the past as far as the Railways is concerned, who could have anticipated at this stage that we would have a budget in which there would be no tariff increases.

We can also see that the Railways Administration has exercised a certain amount of restraint in capital expenditure, and this we welcome as well. To a certain extent one must ascribe what I can only term as our good fortune at this stage, to better working results, the best example probably being the results obtained from the operations at Richards Bay. We are going to see more traffic going out through Richards Bay and we hope that this trend will continue.

To sum up my initial reaction to this budget, I want to call it the “good news” budget. I must say to the hon. the Minister that South Africa is very grateful that he has not accelerated the inflationary spiral. With these words, Sir, I now move—

Agreed to.

Mr. Speaker, when the House adjourned last night, I had been indicating our attitude in these benches in general terms to this Bill. I also dealt with certain specific queries in regard to the Bill, queries on which I asked the hon. the Minister to comment Initially I stated our firm belief in the principle that education should be under a single Government department and should not be divided into separate racial compartments. However, as I indicated last night, while we are dealing with a situation in which the Government is committed to bring about separation in education on racial grounds, we on this side of the House believe it to be our duty to ensure that in those circumstances all matter affecting education, such as the standards which are required and the conditions of service for teachers, should conform as closely as possible to those which apply to other race groups, particularly the White group. For this general reason, and because the Bill is an improvement on the existing legislation, I indicated that we would support the Second Reading.

However, I briefly want to return to the question of participation of teachers in political activities. As I indicated last night, I think it is likely to be a sensitive matter as far as the Indian community is concerned, particularly at this stage in their development, when they are participating, or will participate very shortly, in elections for a fully representative Indian Council. I also indicated that as far as the Indian community is concerned, the Indian teacher plays a very prominent part indeed in the community affairs of that group in South Africa. It is from the Indian teaching community that one can anticipate a number of the Indian leaders and public representatives to come. I think it is therefore important that there should be absolute clarity on the extent to which they can participate in political, public and local affairs.

The question of participation at the present time is regulated under the existing Act by section 16 and is dealt with under the heading of misconduct. The existing section 16(g) provides that a teacher is guilty of misconduct “if he is a member of any party political organization”, and then it goes on. But that is one of the disqualifications. Another one is if he belongs to an unlawful organization. But the section as it stands at present says that a teacher will be guilty of misconduct, inter alia, if he is a member of any party political organization. Clause 9 of the Bill amends this provision by stipulating that a teacher shall be guilty of misconduct if he, in the first place—

And secondly, if—

So, there is a clear stipulation in the first place that no teacher may belong to an unlawful organization. Then the amendment provides that “if a teacher makes use of his position in the department to promote or to prejudice the interests of any political party”, he shall be guilty of misconduct, also if he “presides or speaks at any public political meeting”. From this it seems that he is not barred from being a member of a political party, and this is an improvement on the present situation. This is emphasized by the new subsection (3) inserted by clause 12(c), which was perhaps inserted at a later stage in order to give reassurance on this point. That is my guess as I read the legislation. The situation is restated in that subsection as follows—

It then goes on to say that if he is nominated as a candidate for the Indian Council, he shall be deemed to have relinquished his post as a teacher. I think it has to be made absolutely clear that this provision will not affect the right of an Indian teacher to make himself available as a public representative other than in the affairs of the Indian Council. I want to be quite clear on this point.

You mean local authorities?

Yes, for instance local authorities. Will he be allowed to stand for election as a town councillor?

I can give you that assurance.

This is very important, because this is a sphere in which they are going to be directly involved.

You have my assurance.

Right I wanted that assurance and I also wanted clarity on that point. This, too, I think is an improvement, will add clarity and will be of assistance to the Indian teaching community.

The hon. the Minister has now given us that assurance and I shall look forward to his comments on the other points which I raised last night, particularly the point relating to State-aided Indian schools, the taking over of State-aided Indian schools, which is also a matter of great significance to the Indian community. I submit that the Bill in its present form does not come up to expectations in this respect and requires amendment during the Committee Stage. However, in general terms and because there is an improvement, we shall support the Second Reading of the Bill and reserve our further comments for the Committee Stage.

Mr. Speaker, we are thankful that the hon. member for Musgrave indicated the agreement of the official Opposition. True, he did so with a number of qualifications, but most important is that he said that this legislation is an improvement on the 1965 legislation. It would seem that this was the main aspect of his speech and I want to agree with him in that case. However, I want to take this argument further. We on this side of the House feel that this legislation marks a special stage. It has been 15 years since the original Indian Education Act was piloted through Parliament, and I think the introduction of this amending legislation marks the coming of age of Indian education in South Africa. This is a special year for Indian education. Not only does it place the seal on the progress of Indian education as a separate department, but it so happens that this is also the year in which compulsory schooling for the Indian population has been introduced for the first time. This year, for the first time, all Indian children from the ages of seven to 15 must attend school. However, this is not the only respect in which there has been great progress. The extent to which the Indian school population at school has progressed, is also reflected very clearly, not only in the number of Indian pupils attending schools in the country, but also in the remarkable increase in the pass percentage of Indian matriculants in particular. When we examine the department’s report, it appears that the pass percentage in the Senior Certificate with matriculation exemption was 58,47% in 1976 and 88,59% in 1977, and according to recent indications it would seem that the 90% mark was passed in 1978. This is an exceptional achievement. A pass rate of 90% and more in the Indian community means that their school going youth have now, in their standard of school education, reached a position of parity with that of the White pupils in our country. After all, this is what the Indian community have been asking for over the years.

The Indian community has always indicated very clearly that its standard and pattern of education should not in any way be inferior to that of the Whites. We see this reflected in the percentage pass rate. Although this legislation is to a large extent of a technical nature, it is, in fact clearly indicated by the fact that we can really summarize this Bill briefly as a Bill that places the general regulation of the affairs of the Department of Indian Education on the same level as that of the education of White pupils in the various provincial education departments.

I do not intend to discuss the clauses of this Bill individually. The hon. the Minister has already done so. The hon. member for Musgrave, too, has already discussed a number of clauses. As I have already said, most of the clauses represent technical adjustments and definitions. Clauses 1, 2 and 3 contain mere technical adjustments; as do clauses 6, 7 and 8. The hon. member for Musgrave put certain questions with regard to those clauses. I shall leave it to the hon. the Minister to reply to those questions. I think that I am not nearly as qualified as the hon. Minister to reply to those questions. I do feel that one should refer specifically to clause 11. Clause 11 of the Bill envisages the substitution of the existing section 18 of the Principal Act. This section provides for a new procedure. I think that this procedure is as fair as possible with regard to the inquiry which has to be instituted when there is a suggestion of incompetence or of inefficiency concerning an Indian teacher. For the very first time now a very clearly defined procedure has been laid down in this clause which ensures that a very reasonable and thorough investigation will take place in instances of reputed incompetency or inefficiency. In addition to a preliminary investigation—if there is a suspicion of this nature—which in normal cases will probably be carried out by an inspector of education, the teacher concerned is given the opportunity, after the preliminary investigation, to put his case as well. If he wishes, statements by other persons who are well-acquainted with him in his daily life may also be added. However, this is not all. If it is found that such a teacher is not completely competent to perform his task—perhaps he has a problem which he can or wishes to solve—or if he thinks that the inspector who carried out the initial investigation possibly wanted to victimize him, or that he is possibly being discriminated against, here he is automatically given the opportunity after a specified period of 90 days, or even earlier if he so requests, to request a second investigation be instituted into his capability of performing his work.

Because a second inspector of education is now involved, it is perhaps also necessary to refer in this regard to the comment on the inspectorate as it appears in the department’s report on page 59. Here reference is made to the sustained improvement in the pass rate in the senior certificate examination and a noticeable improvement in the standard and quality of pupils’ work from the junior primary phase. This bears testimony to the success of the inspectorate in working towards this goal. However, in the second paragraph this important remark is added—

Whereas the quality of the investigations by the inspectorate and the visits by the inspector, have, therefore, changed to such an extent that the inspector is to a greater extent a person who gives guidance and advice and to a lesser extent a person who specifically tests standards, the teacher who is reputedly incompetent and inefficient or, owing to some problem, unable to deliver his best before his class, now has the assurance that he will not be investigated by one inspector only, but that the performance of his duties will be investigated by a second inspector. Therefore, he has the double opportunity of proving that he is, in fact, fit for his post.

However, this is not the end of the matter. Once the first and second investigations have taken place and the teacher concerned has had the opportunity to put his side of the case and to submit the supporting statements, it still remains the Minister’s prerogative and he still has the discretion to decide in what way he will deal with that teacher. The proposed legislation expressly gives the Minister not only one method of action, but, in fact, four alternative ways of dealing with such a teacher.

Therefore I want to say that this provision in the Bill is not only as reasonable as a staff member of an Indian school can expect, but it also gives him every opportunity to solve the problems he experiences in rendering his best service to his class. This also protects him against discrimination by one specific member of the inspectorate. Against this background I think that the hon. member for Musgrave was unnecessarily concerned when he referred to the possibility of “vindictiveness on the part of the secretary” in his speech. In my opinion there are more than enough opportunities under this proposed provision that enable a teacher to put his case.

†Having said that, I want to agree with the hon. member for Musgrave. That this legislation is an improvement, but there are one or two points on which I must join issue with him. In the first place I want to refer to the provisions in clause 4 of the Bill, which alter the procedure in regard to the taking over of State-aided schools. The hon. member for Musgrave suggested that the old system of advertising in the Government Gazette to all and sundry, was a preferable method to the one that is now being proposed, i.e. of simply notifying the governing authority: the board of trustees or the person who runs to the school.

Hon. members will know that during the 15 years that this legislation has been in force, a large number of State-aided Indian schools were taken over by the department, mainly at the request of the parents of the Indian community concerned. I think it is also well known that the Indian community as such has, over the years, probably put the other communities in our country to shame in so far as their active participation, their interest in the schooling of their children is concerned. We in Natal probably realize more than anybody else in the country to what extent the Indian communities have brought sacrifices to ensure a sufficient education for their children. They have in fact established proportionately more schools for their own children than any other population group. This provision is now aimed at notifying the people who have been placed in charge of a State-aided school, in the event of a proposed take-over by the State, rather than society in general.

Just the person?

It could be only the person, but I submit that the Indian communities of this country have shown quite sufficient proof of their deep-seated interest in the schooling of their children to ensure that whoever is the authority running a school— be it a person, the headmaster or a board of trustees—would have the fullest confidence of the Indian community most intimately concerned with that particular school, i.e. the parent community and the members of the Indian population in that particular area, those who have contributed to the establishment and the running of the school. I submit that advertising in general, for all the world to see and opening up opportunities for anybody, whether he has a direct interest in a particular school or not, to make known his comments on a proposed take-over, displays little confidence and faith in the Indian community concerned. Under the new procedure the people, or person, who have been entrusted by the community to run their school, would be the people who would have to be negotiated with.

There is another issue that I want to raise with the hon. member, and that is the participation in politics on the part of Indian teachers. I, for one, fail to see how he can find grounds for criticism in the fact that the conditions and circumstances under which Indian teachers can participate in their own politics, are being made exactly the same as those applying to White teachers.

Throughout all our dealings and negotiations with the Indian population one desire on their part has been evident. The Indian people do not want to be treated in any other way than the White people in this country. Here one has one instance of where the circumstances of the Indian teacher when it comes to political participation are being put completely on a par with that of the White teachers in the Free State, the Transvaal, Natal and the Cape Province. I cannot see how the hon. member for Musgrave can adopt the attitude of “All right, this is fine, but…”.

I want to also join issue with the hon. member on the question of his preference for a single Department of Education for the education of Whites, Coloureds and Indians rather than a separate department for each group. Admitting that this measure now provides similar conditions for Indian schools to those obtaining in White schools, one has to canvass the question of whether the generalization on the part of the PFP really holds water. The hon. member for Musgrave subscribes to a policy which, according to their own publication, has seven fundamental principles. The fifth fundamental principle …

Order! In his speech the hon. member for Musgrave merely said that he preferred that system. He did not discuss it. The hon. member for Umlazi cannot discuss the policy of the PFP under this Bill. There will be another opportunity later to discuss the policy of the PFP.

As you please, Mr. Speaker. If the general statement be made that one department is better—and this Bill is still based on the premise of separate departments—then in summarizing one could say that the question really is: What will afford the Indian community the best opportunity to preserve and to strive for their homogeneity and own identity. We believe that this legislation, based on the need for a separate Department of Indian Education, affords the Indian community a better opportunity of preserving their own identity, which is, after all, part of the basic principles of the policy of the hon. member for Musgrave. Here we have the case where not only the teachers in this community are on an equal footing with the other groups, but where it is also possible for the Indian community to receive education in their own environment and among their own people. One should bear in mind that it is possible for staff members drawn from the smallest community in our country to reach the top and to control the whole milieu, the climate, in the department, something they would have been unable to do in any other way in our country.

For us on this side of the House it is a privilege to support this legislation symbolizing the coming of age of Indian education.

Mr. Speaker, I shall be reacting to certain comments made by the hon. member for Umlazi because he did raise some interesting points in his exchange of opinions with the hon. member for Musgrave. We also view this Bill with a measure of satisfaction because it certainly is an improvement on the state of affairs that has governed the lot of teachers and institutions connected with Indian education. I must point out, however, that we do have reservations about certain clauses, and I shall outline these during the course of my address. There is certainly no doubt that the Bill is an improvement and does much to bring the legislation on Indian education into line with legislation pertaining to White and Coloured education. Let me now examine the clauses.

Clause 1 presents no problem, as far as we are concerned, because it deals in the main with definitions and has the effect of updating such definitions to meet the requirements of the education system applicable to Whites and Coloureds. Clause 1(d), however, provides for the proper definition of a “preprimary school”. It is interesting to see that pre-primary schools are now being brought into the educational system for Indians for the first time. We believe that it cannot be argued that bringing schools for children between the ages of two and the normal school-going age under the control of the Departments of Education is a great improvement.

In regard to White education I am, of course, referring to control by the provinces, and in regard to other groups whichever relevant authorities they might fall under. Clause 1(e) and (f) are obviously designed, in our opinion, to cater for the new system of differentiation, but there is a problem about the inclusion of the words “or training” in clause 1(g). Can the hon. the Minister tell us whether this has been occasioned by the special needs of children with learning difficulties, or has this been introduced to cater for those children who are mentally retarded?

Which clause is that?

I am referring to clause 1(g), by which the words “or training” are inserted.

Clause 2 is a consequential clause, embodying the new definitions currently in use, and clause 3 is welcomed because we feel that it makes for better administration. Whilst on that subject, let me say that we feel that the omission of certain words in clause 3 is going to do a lot towards eliminating red tape.

This brings me to clause 4, about which there is apparently the most serious difference of opinion between the hon. member for Umlazi—I am sorry he is not here at the moment—and the hon. member for Musgrave. We view this clause with mixed feelings in that it seeks to omit the words “the Gazette” and provides that the transfer of the management of a school to the department may be effected by writing to the governing body. The hon. member for Berea …

The hon. member for Musgrave.

Sorry, yes, the hon. member for Musgrave. The hon. member for Musgrave said that advertising in the Government Gazette was preferable to advising the governing body, and there has been a certain measure of discussion about whether this could be an individual, in terms of the existing legislation, or whether it could be a small group of people. Irrespective of what it may be, however, our view is that an advertisement of this nature should appear in a newspaper or some periodical that circulates amongst members of the Indian community who are intimately affected by the transfer of any particular school. We agree wholeheartedly with the hon. member for Musgrave that this notice, i.e. the notice to the governing body, is inadequate. We also agree with him that many State-aided schools are community inspired. We know, in common with the hon. member for Umlazi, that sponsorship of these schools by members of the Indian community has more often than not been generous; in fact, it is often over-generous. The Indian community do a lot to assist their schools. They have vested interests in their schools; they have vested interests in the schools that are enjoying State aid. We therefore feel that, while it may be necessary to hand the management and control of the schools over to the department, it is also necessary that the intention to do so should be as widely publicized as possible. I think it is common cause and that we all agree that the Government Gazette is not the most popular reading material. Not everybody gets the Government Gazette or reads it.

Are you talking about The Citizen?

We would suggest that any intention along these lines should be advertised in newspapers or magazines—Fiat Lux comes to mind—that circulate specifically within the Indian community. We are led to believe that the South African Indian Teachers Association feel rather strongly about this aspect and I think their views are worthy of serious consideration.

Clause 5 is consequential, and in clauses 6 and 7 the words “and employees” and “or employee”, respectively, are inserted after the words “other than officers” and “other than an officer” respectively. We would ask the hon. the Minister whether this refers to temporary staff or whether temporary staff are included in this definition and, if so, whether they will enjoy the fringe benefits applicable to permanent staff. We would be interested to receive an answer on that particular point.

Clause 8 contains a completely new provision dealing entirely with retirement. We are very pleased to note that an option may be exercised in respect of the retirement age. We are also pleased to see that compared with existing legislation, there is a very significant omission in subsection (4) which deals with the grounds on which file Minister may discharge any person from the department I am of course referring to the fact that the words “in the case of a female if she marries” are omitted. This represents a tremendous improvement because it means that a woman need not fear losing her job when she gets married. This has been a very real cause for concern in teaching circles, among White teachers as well as others, for a considerable time. We also note that in the first line of the proposed new section 15(1) the words “other than an officer” appear. We wonder whether the words “or employee” have not been inadvertently omitted, because they do appear in the two previous clauses. I think this needs clarification, as the hon. the Minister may possibly have to consider an amendment in order to regularize the phraseology used.

Then we have a problem with the proposed subsection (4)(b) which again concerns the discharge of a person by the Minister. We understand that the South African Indian Teachers Association feel rather strongly that there should be a measure of protection for the teacher whose discharge is the result of “the abolition of his post or a reduction, reorganization or rearrangement of the staff’. They feel that a provision should be included whereby such a person may only be discharged if there is no other post available to him within the service. I think this attitude is understandable. The teacher will be discharged because of a reduction, reorganization or rearrangement of the staff of the particular school and no alternative will be offered. That certainly does not give him any measure of security. We agree that a person falling into this category should, if at all possible, be offered a transfer to another establishment falling under the control of the Minister. Similarly, the proposed section 15(4)(d) deals with the discharge of a person who has been found to be lacking in efficiency or does insufficient to promote the economy at the school in question, i.e. the school at which he is serving. We are not happy with this. We are not happy that his talents, questionable as they may be—after all, he is not doing his job properly—cannot be used in another establishment, and we shall therefore be moving amendments in the Committee Stage in respect of both these paragraphs.

The amended section 16 proposed in clause 9 of the Bill, is an interesting one. Originally we had serious reservations in respect of this amendment. In fact, I put an amendment on the Order Paper, but I shall not be moving it, because we realize that this provision has to be read in conjunction with the proposed section 19(3), as contained in clause 12 of the Bill. When these are read together it will be seen that the net result is that there is nothing to preclude a teacher from belonging to any political party, from serving on the management of a party or from attending a public political meeting, but he may not speak at such a meeting in order to promote or prejudice the interests of any political party.

The hon. member for Umlazi took issue with the hon. member for Musgrave on this and said that the same applied to Whites. I agree with him; it applies to Whites in a rather laborious fashion. Natal Provincial Ordinance No. 46 of 1969 is phrased somewhat differently, although it does have the same effect. I quote section 55(2)(a)—

Provided—

This whole matter as contained in the Bill before us is rather disjointed, but the effect is there. We have no argument with this, because we accept that a teacher plays a very important part in society. His role is a very special one, as is his situation. We do not believe that he should be seen actively promoting any single political party. One only has to visualize the situation in a small town were a teacher of any race group to stand on a public platform and start shouting the odds in support of a particular candidate or political party. If it happened in my town, I would be the first one to approach the headmaster and ask him also to put my particular point of view. However, like the hon. member for Musgrave, we entertain very strong feelings in respect of the teachers and their possible role in town councils, town boards or management committees. Particularly, do I myself feel strongly about this as I served for 17 years in local government in Natal. Therefore I am grateful for the assurance which the hon. the Minister has given us that teachers will not be precluded from active participation in local affairs. By participating in these activities members of the teaching profession can play an important part and make a meaningful contribution towards the society in which they live.

We also feel that it is perfectly correct that any teacher who is nominated for election to the S.A. Indian Council should immediately relinquish his post on the date of nomination, but—this is a very big “but”—we further feel that this nomination should not jeopardize his career in any way. We ask the hon. the Minister to give us the assurance that should such a teacher lose an election of this nature he would be reinstated by the department without any loss in respect of grade, position, salary, pension or any other benefits to which he would be entitled.

Provided he loses honourably I shall give him that undertaking.

How else can he lose an election? However, I am happy with that assurance. I am pleased to hear it. In fact, we are having a very calm and peaceful debate here this afternoon.

Clause 10 is an improvement and clause 11 introduces a completely new section 18. We find this acceptable. We feel ample room is given—and in this respect I agree with the hon. member for Umlazi—for appeal should any person who is dismissed feel aggrieved, and we note that the appeal is in all instances to a higher authority with the final say vested with the Minister. We have no problem with this clause. We cannot see any spooks in this cupboard, because ultimately it is the Minister who is going to have the final say, and we cannot see that any vindictiveness on the part of any individual inspector or anybody else will be allowed or tolerated.

It is intended to assist the public prosecutor.

Clause 12(a) deals with a person who is appointed on a full-time basis in a temporary capacity. I have another question which I wish to put to the hon. the Minister. We want to know whether the person who is appointed on a full-time basis in a temporary capacity will enjoy the normal fringe benefits applicable to a person appointed on a full-time basis in a permanent capacity. Subsection (b) of this clause presents no problem, and I have already dealt with subsection (c). I do not think that clauses 13, 14, 15 and 16 need any comment.

It only remains for me to say that we trust that the hon. the Minister will seriously consider our submissions and the questions that I have asked him here this afternoon. Subject to that we have pleasure in supporting the Bill at Second Reading, but we look forward to an interesting debate during the Committee Stage.

Mr. Speaker, I welcome the support of the hon. member for Musgrave and the hon. member for Umhlanga for this legislation. I feel that this is good legislation and a great improvement on the 1965 legislation, which is already on the Statute Book. Therefore, I, too, should like to support this legislation.

With regard to clause 1 to 5, there are no new principles or anything of that nature; they merely entail the addition of certain words or definitions to bring the legislation into line with other existing legislation, or to adopt it to the present needs which may exist in Indian education. Clauses 4 and 5 amend the existing sections 5 and 6 of the principal Act. In terms of clause 4 certain schools and colleges are being transferred to the Department of Indian Affairs. I cannot understand the problem of the hon. member for Musgrave and the hon. member for Umhlanga in this regard at all. With due respect I want to suggest that if this particular clause was read properly, it will be seen that the authorities that have a real interest in these take-overs, have been consulted all the way. I should like to quote the proposed subsection (1). It reads—

In other words, the governing body of the school concerned is first consulted by comprehensive negotiations and agreements before anything further happens. If there is no agreement in this regard, then there is definitely no take-over. If there is an agreement with the board of the school concerned, the interested persons, then the parents and other interested parties at that school will, after all, have a say in such a take-over. For this reason I cannot, with all due respect, understand the problem of the hon. members at all. The position of the takeover of State-aided schools arises from the period when Indian education in Natal still fell primarily under the jurisdiction of the provincial administration of that time. During that time, and as a result of the needs of that time, certain private schools were established, which consequently received subsidies from the State in later years. As a result of this they are known as State-aided schools. This clause lays down the entire procedure to be followed. I think that ample provision has been made for interested parties to receive notice in this regard. With regard to clauses 6 and 7 of this Bill, the word “employee” is being inserted here in section 11 and section 14 of the principal Act. With all due respect I suggest that this also be adjusted in section 1 of the Public Service Act, 1957. For that reason I cannot understand the problems of hon. members opposite in this regard either.

Clause 8 of the Bill is being substituted for section 15 of the principal Act. This deals with the proposed transfer and discharge of staff members of State, industrial or reform schools, as well as certain State-aided schools. However, the clause concerned goes further than the old section 15 of the principal Act in that a person can be retired on pension before attaining the compulsory age. In addition he now qualifies for pension privileges for which he would otherwise, in terms of the previous legislation, not have qualified. For this reason it is also a great improvement on the old legislation. The only condition imposed is that he should give notice in writing to the Secretary, as well as meeting other conditions, before he, according to his wishes, can be retired on pension. The proposed new section 15 goes on to deal with the grounds on which the Minister may discharge people from the department. I do not foresee the problems the hon. member for Umhlanga foresees in this regard at all. The grounds are exactly the same as those in the existing section 15, and almost the exact wording of the existing section is being taken over. The only difference is that in the proposed new section 15, the arrangement and word order are better, and that the provision—which is universally welcomed—with regard to women who get married, on the whole, is a great improvement, too. As far as the rest of the objections raised by the hon. member for Umhlanga are concerned, I cannot agree with him at all.

As far as the question of misconduct is concerned, as well as the question of a teacher’s membership of illegal organizations, I cannot understand why this long-winded discussion took place. The position of the Indian teacher is now exactly on a par with that of the White teacher. For this reason I cannot understand what the problem is. What I do understand is that the hon. member for Umhlanga belongs to a party which promulgated ordinances in the Natal Provincial Council—he even quoted an ordinance which he described as being rather laborious—and that he cannot get used to the better type of legislation before this hon. House. [Interjections.]

With regard to clause 1—the proposed new section 18—it is, of course, true that a whole new provision has been included in this legislation. This is, I want to suggest with all due respect, a great improvement on the old provision in the principal Act. In a case in which a teacher was found incompetent and unfit to do his work, the old provision laid down the procedure to be followed at the hearing or investigation which has to take place with regard to such a teacher. In the old provision the exact wording applicable when someone is investigated for specified misconduct, was followed. Therefore, it almost took the form of a court case, but in these circumstances this type of thing was completely unnecessary. The procedure to be adopted under the new clause, is, with due respect, a much better procedure. The procedure is of a more administrative nature. It also affords the opportunity to complete such an investigation in a much shorter space of time. For that reason I welcome this great improvement.

As far as the hon. member for Musgrave is concerned, you have already ruled that the policy of the PFP may not be discussed in this regard. However, it is nevertheless noticeable at the beginning of his speech the hon. member wanted to get in a political dig and turn the matter into a political issue. I cannot see how he can rake up this type of argument here. Our argument is, after all, that Indian education should be under the jurisdiction of the Department of Indian Affairs, since that is where it belongs, and this is, after all, the object of the new constitutional dispensation. Surely the hon. member cannot expect us to pass legislation in this House which will satisfy the requirements of his party’s policy.

With regard to the problems of the takeover of private schools and colleges, I do not think there are any grounds for the hon. member’s problems.

Finally I should like to praise all the teachers of the various race groups who have served the interests of the child and the Department of Indian Affairs for many years. At present there are only 51 Whites and 23 Coloureds on the establishment of the department amounting to a total of 7 643. In view of the promising rate of enrolment at the various training centres for teachers, the Indian community ought to be able to supply their own teachers in all respects in a very short while. The teaching situation of Indians, will then be dealt with in all respect by the Indians themselves. At this stage I also want to commend all the teachers attending to special education for pupils with special needs. I should also like to thank the hon. the Minister and his department for the exceptional subsidies granted in this regard. I gladly support this legislation.

Mr. Speaker, I should like to express my sincere appreciation to hon. members on both sides of the House for approaching this Bill in such a very friendly and thorough way. It is encouraging for one to know that this measure of unanimity can prevail as far as the education of the youth of our population groups is concerned and that we can all share the wish that justice should be done to the potential of the youth of South Africa. I appreciated the contributions by the hon. members for Umlazi and for Roodepoort in particular. Apparently they were both teachers. They spoke with so much enthusiasm, knowledge and dedication on this interesting subject that it was a pleasure to listen to them. On the whole they covered the same field that I have to cover in my reply, and I am very grateful to them for assisting me and facilitating my task.

The hon. member for Umlazi referred with appreciation to the fact that this Bill is being introduced in the year in which compulsory education for Indian children comes into operation. It is of course a very important landmark in the history of Indian education and I believe that Parliament as a whole is proud of our having made so much progress with this important matter. The hon. member also referred with appreciation to a very remarkable and commendable fact viz. that in the matriculation examinations of last year 90,2% of the Indians who had enrolled, passed. This is a very commendable achievement and one feels proud of them. Although it is rather late, I should still like to take the opportunity of wishing all those youngsters every success for the future in their various careers. The just over 9% of them who did not make the grade, I want to advise to try again, and if they do not want to do so, they should avail themselves of the opportunities which are waiting for them in South Africa. Our country is rich in such opportunities.

†I have expressed my appreciation for the contributions made by hon. members on this side of the House, but that should not be construed as meaning that I do not appreciate the attitude of hon. members on that side of the House to the same extent. As a matter of fact, I listened with keen interest to the contributions made by the hon. member for Musgrave and the hon. member for Umhlanga. One appreciates the fact that they took the trouble to study this amending legislation. To debate amending legislation always means more work than when debating an original piece of legislation. I also appreciate the fact that they acquainted themselves with the problems of the teaching profession and that they delivered carefully considered judgments on the merits of the Bill before the House. For that reason I appreciate the fact all the more that they are supporting the Bill. I listened with keen interest to the issues they raised, and should now like to deal with these issues in fair detail. I think the hon. member for Umhlanga said that even if I spend a lot of time dealing with the issues they raised in detail, I was not going to get the Committee Stage of the Bill immediately. I accept that too.

*The first aspect that was raised, was why the word “opleiding”—“training”—was included in the definition of “buitengewone onderwys”—“special education”. The reason is very simple. Since the original Act was passed in 1975, we have also passed here in Parliament an Act dealing with advanced technical education. Technical training is defined in that Act and acquires a special meaning. Therefore it must be included in this legislation, for the sake of instances where children should be given special attention. If we do not include that definition, it can be said that such opportunities are not available to children who have problems.

†The hon. member for Musgrave pertinently asked me whether certain provisions in the definitions clause imply that university education would be handed over to the South African Indian Parliament under the new constitutional plan. By way of an interjection I said that this was a technical Bill aimed at facilitating administration and at removing certain differences between the treatment of Indian teachers and White teachers. The amendments therefore have no relation to the new constitutional developments we have in mind. We did not sit down and asked ourselves how we should amend the legislation in order to make certain developments under the new constitutional plan possible. At the same time it would be wrong of me to try to pretend that university education will not be one of the things that might possibly go to the Indian Parliament, when it comes about in South Africa. I suggest that there is a long road for us to walk before we shall have the new constitution before us. There is still much consultation to be done with the parties concerned and with hon. members of both Houses of Parliament. It would therefore be a bit premature to anticipate it in any discussion today.

The hon. member for Musgrave also took the opportunity of stating the fundamental differences between his party and mine in regard to the question of education. They would like to have one education system for all population groups in South Africa. He is entitled to that point of view, I shall not discuss it today, but I do hope that we shall be able to find an opportunity when the hon. member will give us more information about how he wishes to achieve that and at the same time do justice to the variety of cultures and identities among the peoples of South Africa. It should be a very interesting discussion. In our Indian education programme, for example, we have to arrange not only for the teaching of English and Afrikaans, but also for three other major languages. Six other languages also seek recognition, but we cannot give it to them. I cannot imagine having a school with Whites, Coloureds, Indians and Blacks with nine different languages being used. That is beyond my imagination. I think the hon. member for Musgrave owes it to the House and to the country to give us some opportunity to learn from him how he is going to make this practicable, reasonable and sensible, considering the interest of the children and not that of some ideological preconception on the part of certain Whites in South Africa.

I was also asked about closing the salary gap between teachers, although this is not strictly relevant to the Bill.

*It is not the intention of this Bill to cover that matter. It remains the policy of the Government in any case to close the salary gap progressively. I have a statement in my possession which shows that Indian teachers who are at the top notch of their scales at the moment, all earn between 80% and 90% of the salaries that White teachers on the same scale earn. Consequently the gap is closing rapidly. Hon. members heard that in his budget speech the hon. the Minister of Transport took the opportunity of further narrowing the gap on the Railways by allocating a higher percentage increase to non-Whites than to Whites. This policy is therefore not only clear, but is also being actively and progressively implemented by the Government.

†Sir, then there was considerable discussions on the taking over of State-aided schools. My hon. friends expressed the fear— they have the right to express any fears they may have—that State-aided schools, started and maintained by the Indian community during the time when their education was neglected in South Africa, would be taken over in a haphazard way by the department without proper notice to the community concerned. This point was made only because the hon. members do not know—and understandably so—how the Department of Indian Affairs administers the procedure for taking over State-aided schools. The first thing they should take note of to allay their fears, is that we do not take the initiative in the taking over of these schools. The practice is that State-aided schools are only taken over at the request of the school concerned. Only in very extraordinary circumstances, for instance, where a school finds itself in a state of neglect and where the standards are hopelessly inadequate, may the department take the initiative, but in all other cases the initiative comes from the community and the school concerned. Therefore the fears expressed by hon. members are not likely to arise.

You have the power.

We do have the power and if we were to be unreasonable—which neither of the two hon. members suggested— we could do those things which they fear. The hon. members with justification interpret the Bill as providing for a notice to a person. But if I deal with a public company then I deal with a public officer of that company. There must be some individual who is designated as the person who I should approach when conducting business with the company. Otherwise how do you deal with any legal person? These school are legal persons. Therefore the principal, or anybody else they appoint, is on a par with the public officer in the case of company law. We deal with him. His responsibility is to report to his governing body, because he is the officer of that public body, and that public body is elected by the community concerned. I am therefore satisfied that in practice notice to that person will be notice to the governing body which represents the community concerned.

What harm would there be in giving a wider notification?

I think that to ask the department to advertise in newspapers and the Government Gazette, when notice to the person representing the governing body is adequate for all purposes, is asking for something unnecessary and a waste of the taxpayers money, and that is one thing the Department of Indian Affairs will never do.

Hon. members opposite asked me to give a further explanation of the provisions of clauses 6 and 7. In the case of clause 6, the word “employees” is included for a definite purpose, and that is that apart from teachers there are in the employ of the department— people who do clerical work. Some of them are qualified and are therefore appointed as public servants under the Public Service Commission in the same way as public servants in other departments. As hon. members may know, however, although there are some highly qualified people in the Indian community, to a large extent the Indian community is still a developing group. So there are many people amongst them who are not fully qualified in terms of the Public Service Act, and these are employed as “employees”. I must therefore make it perfectly clear that the provisions of this clause, which is a good clause, will apply not only to qualified public servants, but also to people employed by the department’s educational section even though they are not qualified to be public servants in the full sense of the word.

The same remarks apply to clause 7. It may be that a clerk who occupies a permanent post, but who is only temporarily in service, for example someone who does not comply with the qualifications demanded for appointments, can also be included in terms of the provisions of this clause. The present wording of the clause removes all doubt there may have been about that, and I think hon. members will agree that that is necessary.

I now come to clause 8. The hon. member for Umhlanga asked me whether there should not be a reference to “employees” here as well. The answer is no, because the clause deals with the retirement on pension of people and can only apply to people who are permanently in the public service. It cannot be applied to “employees” at all, and therefore to include the word “employees” in this clause would be in conflict with the provisions of the Public Service Act, and that would be neither wise nor advisable. Clause 8—and especially clause 8(3)—elicited quite a lot of discussion. I want to say at once, however, that this provision is applied for the first time to Indian education, although it does exist in the ordinances of the various provincial councils. I must point out that it is not, strictly speaking, a disciplinary measure. The clause is really intended to assist teachers who, for some reason or other, have become incompetent or unfit to occupy the position of a teacher. One does sometimes, though not often, come across the case of a teacher in his fifties who, for some reason or other, has burnt himself out, who loses concentration or interest and can no longer perform his task to the satisfaction of the department or in the true interests of the children. In a case like that the Secretary for Education takes certain steps in order to assist that person. He can then be put off on pension, but he does have certain rights of appeal before and after this is done. In fact, he is assisted in every possible way. He is certainly not thrown to the wolves. Special provision is made for him. He can even have periods of pensionable service added to the period he has actually served. He is afforded an opportunity of rehabilitating himself during a period of notice before he is put out of the service. He may also return afterwards, and if he can give evidence of having overcome his problems— which may involve alcoholism or something like that—he can be taken back into the service of the department. The point I want to emphasize is that this is not a disciplinary clause. If hon. members want to know what the disciplinary provision is, they will find it in section 16 of the original Act.

*Appreciation has been expressed for the fact that female teachers who get married, do not have to leave the service as a result. Then the question was put to me by the hon. member for Musgrave, I think, whether a married female teacher who remains in the service, will still like the woman teacher who until now has had to leave the service on getting married, receive certain gratuities and enjoy other privileges when she eventually leaves the service. The answer is: If she stays on, she retains the privileges under which she would have received that reward on retirement Because she retains those rights, she cannot enjoy them at the same time. However, if she subsequently leaves the service for some reason or another she would of course be in the same position or rather, because of her longer service, in a better position than she would have been in if she had had to resign as a result of her getting married. It is, in other words, just a postponement and not a forfeiture of her privileges. It is a postponement of privileges which goes hand in hand with the acquisition of further privileges because of her longer period of service.

Then I want to refer to the clause which enables Indian teachers to take part in politics from now on. This was also an important point in the debate. I am glad that it could happen, because I agree with my hon. friends on the opposite side and particularly the hon. member for Umhlanga that the Indian teacher could play a very important role in the political development and political awareness of the Indian community for that reason they are now being placed on an absolutely equal footing with White teachers. They can belong to political parties; they can attend meetings; they can be active in branch meetings; they can contribute to the discussion of a political party—but just as in the case of Whites they are, from the nature of their profession, not allowed to participate actively in a elections, to publicly associate themselves with a candidate, to promote or oppose one political party or another in public and particularly not to take advantage of their teaching profession to influence the political thinking of people. These are the same rights as those of White and Coloured teachers, with which everyone is satisfied. We are simply equalizing them. The Indian teacher himself is also satisfied with this very important progress as far as his civil rights are concerned.

†I believe I have now dealt with most of the points raised by hon. members and if I have inadvertently missed someone, I apologize. If I have omitted anything important—my hon. friend for Umhlanga said we would have quite an interesting discussion in the Committee Stage—I would appreciate it if hon. members would give me a chance to correct the omission during the Committee Stage.

May I once again express my appreciation to hon. members for the spirit in which this debate has been conducted and may I express the hope—which I know they all share—that this improved education legislation—which we all accept as such—will lead to more productive results in the education of the Indian South African child.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

The Central Council of Land Surveyors, which was established in terms of section 2 of the Land Surveyors’ Registration Act, 1950, decided at a special meeting held last year to request the Government to make certain amendments and additions to that Act. The Bill which is before the House is intended to comply with that request. The amendments which are being proposed are intended to remove certain shortcomings in the principal Act, and I should like briefly to furnish further particulars about it.

The word “practise” is now being defined. The reason for this is that the State has quite a number of land surveyors in its employ who perform regulatory activities in connection with land surveying and therefore do not practise themselves. It is nevertheless a condition of appointment that those officers be registered as land surveyors in terms of the Land Surveyors’ Registration Act, 1950. Some lecturers who teach land surveying find themselves in the same position.

In enforcing the rules made in terms of the principal Act, problems are being experienced in this connection, since it may be argued that such persons do not “practise”, and the validity of their registration as land surveyors can therefore be questioned. The definition of the word “practise” is therefore intended to remove the uncertainty which exists in this connection.

It is also being suggested that the membership of the Central Council of Land Surveyors be increased from nine to ten in order to give the Transvaal Institute of Land Surveyors an extra representative on the board. Approximately 38% of the land surveyors in the Republic practise in the Transvaal, and the proposed amendment will have the effect that that province will have two representatives on the council, just like the Cape Province. The provinces of Natal and the Orange Free State have one representative each.

†The Central Council of Land Surveyors normally meet once every year. Due to the cost involved, further meetings are held only when a matter has to be considered which is of such importance that it cannot stand over until the annual meeting. It is the opinion of the council that urgent matters can be dealt with just as effectively by means of correspondence, and provision is accordingly being made for the council to pass resolutions in that manner.

The Central Council of Land Surveyors has recently obtained a legal opinion to the effect that the provisions of the principal Act imply that a land surveyor registered in terms of that Act must have a business address within the Republic. A land surveyor in an independent State which previously formed part of the Republic now finds himself in the invidious position that he may no longer undertake surveys in that part of his practice which falls within the Republic. He may also not register a second business address in the Republic. To overcome this problem the council has requested that the principal Act be amended to allow a land surveyor to register a business address outside the Republic.

The amendments proposed in clause 5 concern the powers of the council to make rules in terms of section 18 of the principal Act. It is proposed to extend these powers to include aspects relating to the registration of land surveyors, the registration fees payable by land surveyors and the address required in terms of the Act.

*As I have already said, the amendments are being made at the request of the Central Council of Land Surveyors. They meet with the approval of the respective land surveyors’ institutes.

Mr. Speaker, apart from providing for the establishment of a Central Council of Land Surveyors, the Land Surveyors’ Registration Act of 1950 also provides for the registration of land surveyors and for the way in which land surveyors are to be registered. It also provides how and when action is to be taken against misconduct Nowhere in the Act, however, is any provision made for a definition of the word “practise”; it is now defined done for the first time in this Bill.

In clause 1, the word “practise” is being defined, and this definition includes people who teach land surveying. This immediately means that the universities are involved in the matter in a way which was perhaps not foreseen. It will mean, firstly, that lecturers at universities will be subject to the discipline of the Central Council of Land Surveyors, and not only to the discipline of their own universities.

Secondly, because only qualified land surveyors may register, the universities are being deprived of the right to use mathematicians, for example, who are not land surveyors, to help with the training of land surveyors. Thirdly, the definition of “practise” makes it an offence to use unregistered land surveyors for the training of land surveyors. This could have the effect that a highly qualified academic from overseas, for example, who is in fact a land surveyor, but who is not registered in South Africa, could not teach at our universities.

Up to now, the word “practise” has not been defined. By defining it now, I believe, unnecessary problems are being created. Unless the hon. the Deputy Minister can give a satisfactory explanation, we shall be of the opinion that since the definition which is now being proposed will deprive the universities of their autonomy, we shall have to vote against this clause.

The hon. the Deputy Minister told us in his Second Reading speech that the Central Council of Land Surveyors had requested this legislation and that it met with their approval. I should like to know from the hon. the Deputy Minister whether the universities were also involved in this proposed legislation and whether he consulted them as well about this matter. The universities with which I have been in contact and with which I have had discussions are deeply concerned about clause 1 of the Bill.

We have no problems with clause 2, except that we have to point out that the member representing South West Africa will shortly have to disappear and that South West Africa will surely have to make its own arrangements in the near future.

†I should now like to refer to clause 3. The only problem that we have with this clause is that two-thirds of the members may pass a resolution without the other members even having been made aware of the proposed resolution. We plan to move an amendment to this clause which will be designed to ensure that all members of the council shall be advised in writing of a proposed resolution. The hon. the Deputy Minister did explain that the passing of these resolutions would take place only under conditions of severe haste or when there is a great need to do so. However, there is the possibility that council members who are known to be against a proposed resolution may not be advised of the planned passing of such a resolution. Therefore we think an assurance must be given that all the members of such a council shall be made aware and preferably, as I say, in writing. We plan to move an amendment to this effect.

*With clause 4 we have no problem. When we come to section 18(a)(g), which is dealt with by clause 5, we believe it to be an improvement on the principal Act, because inadmissible conduct is much more closely defined. It is an improvement on the principal Act and it meets with our approval.

Mr. Speaker, we appreciate the fact that the hon. member for Wynberg seems to have made a study of this legislation. It is legislation with regard to a profession. We appreciate his interest and we shall try to reassure him on some points where we consider this possible.

Perhaps I should just go back into the history of the legislation for a moment, because it may be interesting to know that the profession of land surveying is probably one of the oldest professions in the world. [Interjections.] The profession originated in Egypt. The hon. member for Mooi River probably knows better than I. He has another idea of what may be the oldest profession. I said that the profession of land surveying was one of the oldest professions. In Egypt, the people who collected taxes for the State first had to determine the size of the land occupied by the taxpayer. Apart from that, of course, a man could not cultivate a piece of land if he was not sure of his right of ownership over it. Since ancient times, therefore, the idea has been that in the first place, a person had to have security of ownership, and in the second place, the State had to receive taxes. This is the reason why the land surveyor, especially the cadastral land surveyor, is still in great demand today. It is also interesting to go back in history and to note that the first land surveyors arrived at the Cape as far back as the 17th century. Messrs. Potter and Mulder drew and signed the first maps after the servants of the Dutch East India Company had begun to farm on the banks of the Liesbeek River in 1657. Therefore land surveyors have been active in this country since 1657. Initially, the land surveyor was usually a military man or a person with maritime experience. He also had to pass a test in order to become a sworn land surveyor. In 1786, the Dutch East India Company officially instituted the office of land surveyor, called the land surveyor by that name, and assigned to him the rank of assistant.

Because leasehold in those times meant uncertainty with regard to ownership, and because it was easy for someone to move to another piece of land and to settle down there, there was little demand for land surveyors to begin with. However, in order to collect land taxes and to make sure that a man was going to occupy and develop his property and to pay tax, certain measures had to be taken. In 1805, the governor of the Batavian Republic issued a full set of rules for the purpose of introducing applications for land, the issuing of deeds of property ownership, tenure by long lease and rent control. Later, Governor Cradock decided that the people who moved about so frequently should be given greater security concerning their right of ownership. For that reason he introduced the system of perpetual tenure by long lease. It is also interesting to know that land surveyors began to practise on their own in 1812. I should like to draw the hon. Deputy Minister’s attention to the fact that one Mr. J. Knobel was appointed land surveyor for the districts of Graaff-Reinet and Uitenhage in 1812. In 1830, tariffs were laid down for land surveyors. These tariffs were contained in Act No. 9 of 1927. Later we also find the 1950 Act, which regulates the registration of land surveyors.

It is also very important to realize that the office of land surveyor existed even in Biblical times. In Proverbs 22, verse 28, for example, we read—

This probably refers to the old days in Egypt. It is interesting to know that there are five branches in land surveying. In the first place, there is topographical land surveying. In the second place, there is hydrographical land surveying. This has to do with surveying along the coast. In the third place, there is photogrammetrical surveying. This is surveying in which air photographs are used. I just want to point out that enormous development is taking place in this field. The fourth subdivision is geodetical surveying. This means determining the size of the globe, and it includes all the global aspects of our planet. Many centuries ago, a Greek, one Eratosthenes, once again in Egypt, worked out the radius of the globe. Percentage-wise, his deviation was very small. I think it was in the vicinity of 5%. However, we must bear in mind that this was approximately 600 years before the Christ. What we are actually dealing with today has to do with the cadastral land surveyor. The cadastral land surveyor surveys land for registration purposes in the Deeds Office. He has to deal with an enormous number of laws in connection with applications for subdivisions, etc. This Bill is in fact concerned with cadastral land surveyors. It is important to know that his work is not only of a technical nature, but that there is a very great deal of legislation which he has to know and handle to arrive at surveys which can be approved.

In clause 1 it is very clear that the rules require every land surveyor to register at an address where he normality practises. Therefore, in the first place, if there is no address from which one can practise, one actually cannot register. This is the problem which is being experienced with the people who do administrative work in the Government offices and also with lecturers at universities. Lecturers are people who follow the technical complications and developments in the land surveying profession. Furthermore, the administrative officers in the office of the Surveyor-General administer all the laws and examine the surveys relating to them. However, a person from overseas cannot simply be appointed at a South African university to be used for the training of land surveyors, because we have specific requirements which must be complied with, not only concerning the technical side of surveying, but also with regard to the legal aspects to be considered in registering land. For this reason, one finds that the teachers at universities in South Africa are qualified land surveyors, for otherwise the students could not be properly trained with regard to the laws of South Africa. This is also the reply I should like to give to the hon. member for Wynberg in that connection.

Clause 2 deals with the increase in the number of members on the Central Council of Land Surveyors. The hon. member is satisfied with that.

When we come to clause 3, the hon. member said that a resolution of the council could be taken while one-third of the members were probably unaware of it. I now want to mention just three aspects to the hon. member. Firstly, this Bill meets with the approval of the members of the Central Council of Land Surveyors as well as the institutes. They are satisfied that this will not happen. The reason for this could be, among other things, that a registrar has been appointed at the Central Council of Land Surveyors who is, as it were, the secretary. It is his duty, and not that of some member of the Central Council of Land Surveyors, to inform all the members of the developments. The registrar, who is a paid official, has to perform this function. I can hardly foresee that he will fail to do this and to inform one-third of the members. The third point deals with the nature of the profession of the land surveyor. It is a very practical profession. A land surveyor may do surveying over large distances and he is sometimes 200 km to 300 km from home. He may only return over the weekend. It is easier to him to vote by letter—there may not be a telephone available—because then he need not drive the whole distance to the offices of the council and return again to complete his work I do not think there is anything sinister in this amendment. It is merely practical in view of the nature of the land surveying profession. I hope this will satisfy the hon. member on that score.

As far as clause 4 is concerned, it is true that newly independent States should really have the benefit of the services of a land surveyor. It is true that there is not enough work in those States to justify a land surveyor at this stage. This would mean that a land surveyor would leave such a State to the detriment of the expansion and development of that small independent State. The idea is also, among other things, that if such a person lived there permanently, it would be to the advantage of the State. He would have the right to practise in South Africa as well, since there are large areas in South Africa where there are few land surveyors to do all the work.

The hon. member for Wynberg raised no objection to the provisions in clause 5, and I agree with him that it is not the function of the Central Council of Land Surveyors to watch over the personal mores of the land surveyor, but to ensure that he practises his profession as a land surveyor.

Under these circumstances, I take pleasure in supporting the legislation.

Mr. Speaker, I merely rise to support the Bill, and I shall take up but a few moments of the time of this hon. House. I think the hon. member for Pretoria West succeeded quite well in answering the question raised by the hon. member for Wynberg. The hon. member for Pretoria West did not, however, quite satisfy me in regard to the provisions of clause 3 of the Bill, which provides that due notice should really be given to all 10 members of the council. I think the hon. the Minister can take that point up further and could possibly add the words “after due notice has been given to all members.” I think the Bill embodies changes which practising land surveyors want in the original Act, and therefore I believe there is no reason why we should have any quarrel with this Bill, except for a few minor changes suggested by the hon. member for Wynberg.

Mr. Speaker, we have listened with considerable interest to the hon. the Minister when he introduced this Bill. We also listened with great interest to the hon. member for Pretoria West, because we appreciate that he speaks on account of his own professional knowledge of the subject, and because he is qualified in that field, we shall obviously take a lot of notice of what he has to say about the profession to which he was once attached.

The hon. member for Wynberg has, on our behalf, seriously placed before the House the difficulties which we experience in regard to the Bill before the House. The hon. the Minister has stated that this Bill is being brought to the House at the request of the Central Council of Land Surveyors. We accept that where a profession of the calibre represented by this Council of Land Surveyors, makes this request, it is in the interests of the profession. In so far as it affects that profession, we should obviously seriously consider their motivation for requesting these amendments. The difficulty, as pointed out by the hon. member for Wynberg, is that there appears to be a conflict of interests between the Central Council of Land Surveyors, who represents the recognized land surveyors, and the universities. The Central Council of Land Surveyors seek to give land surveyors in the service of the Government the right to register and to continue their work, but it has not taken the difficulties experienced by universities into consideration.

By introducing a new definition of practice and by extending that definition to the functions of teaching, one is now not only dealing with the practising land surveyor, but also with the teaching profession at our universities. What does the teaching of land surveying constitute? Will the teaching of land surveying be reserved for persons who are registered under the provisions of Act 14 of 1950, and will any non-registered person who teaches land surveying, be guilty of an offence under section 15 of the Land Survey Act, No. 9 of 1927? Land surveying is not defined in the Land Surveyors’ Registration Act, Act No. 14 of 1950, nor in the Land Survey Act, Act No. 9 of 1927. We must therefore accept the commonly understood meaning of the phrase. It is usual in the Republic and in other southern African States which have adopted surveying legislation based on the South African Land Survey Act, to use the term “surveying” for all the technical, computational, advisory and general tasks carried out by a land surveyor. The term “land surveying” is more narrowly defined and is used to describe only those operations incidental to the surveying of registerable rights in land and the surveying of legally constituted boundaries. Therefore, in the narrowest sense, the teaching of land surveying may be taken to mean the conducting of instructional courses and seminars in cadastral surveying and, perhaps, survey law and land registration. The implication here is that the teaching of mathematics, physical sciences, geodesy, engineering surveying and so on is not encompassed by the phrase. However, this is too narrow a definition to satisfy our specifications in the commonly understood sense.

The courses leading to the degree of B.Sc. (Surveying), as the hon. member for Pretoria West probably knows, have to be approved by the Board for Recognition of Land Surveyors Examinations, established by Act No. 82 of 1959, in order that the degree be recognized as a prequalification for registration as a land surveyor. In the light of this one may take the broad view that the teaching of land surveying includes the teaching of any courses, such as mathematics, physical sciences, geodesy, and so on. This is obviously absurd, as the hon. member must see and as the hon. the Minister, I hope, will observe. It is the opinion, certainly as far as the universities are concerned, that the phrase “teaching of land surveying” covers the conducting of instructional courses, seminars or classes administered by any university department of surveying, such courses, seminars or classes being intended to prepare candidates for the examination for a degree in land surveying, as envisaged in section 12(b)(iii) of Act No. 9 of 1927, as amended.

Who may then teach land surveying? The word “practise” was not defined in Act No. 14 of 1950. The Land Surveyors’ Registration Act, however, provides for the establishment of a Central Council of Land Surveyors for the registration of such land surveyors. The Land Survey Act, Act No. 9 of 1927, inter alia, sets down who may be recognized as a land surveyor, the qualifications necessary before that recognition will be granted, for the suspension or cancellation of the right to practise as a land surveyor and for sanctions against any person, except a land surveyor who professes himself to be, in any manner, a land surveyor. The two Acts to which I have referred are obviously closely inter-related. It is the opinion of the universities that clause 1 of the amendment Bill, by virtue of the structure of the two Acts, may constrain the rights of a university to decide whom it may appoint to teach land surveying and may furthermore render the act of teaching land surveying by non-registered persons an offence. This conclusion is based on several observations. In terms of section 2 of the Land Survey Act, no person shall be entitled to practise as a land surveyor unless he has been registered as a land surveyor in terms of the Land Surveyors’ Registration Act, and if the Act is amended to include the definition of “practise” as given in the amendment Bill, section 2 of the Land Survey Act must surely be construed to mean that no unregistered person may conduct an instructional course in land surveying. This is the situation which has now been brought about. To counter this it is suggested that the wording of the definition of “practise”, as given in the Bill, be drafted to avoid such a construction. The hon. the Minister must please tell the House whether this has been taken into consideration and whether he is aware of the implications of what is being proposed in this regard. It is further submitted that the definition seems to specifically exclude persons who are not registered as land surveyors.

So the Act cannot be used effectively against those who are not land surveyors. This, however, clearly contradicts section 2 of the Land Survey Act and also goes against section 13 of Act 14 of 1950. Such a construction is therefore surely ultra vires. I certainly do not think that this is what the hon. the Minister intended because this would leave him with an ultra vires situation.

A second constraint on university autonomy is the fact that the Land Surveyors’ Registration Act provides for an inquiry, by the Central Council of Land Surveyors, into any complaint against a land surveyor. So if the teaching of land surveying is to be regarded as an aspect of land surveying practice, any student therefore has an open avenue of complaint against a lecturer at a university. The matter would go to the board itself and not to the university, so one is depriving the university of its function of exercising discipline over its own staff. That is the envisaged situation as a result of what is being done. Surely, though, it should be the officers of the university who should decide about their own staff rather than an outside body.

The third potential constraint resides in section 14 of the Land Survey Act which provides for the withdrawal of the right to practise as a land surveyor. Let me refer the hon. the Minister to section 14 of the Land Survey Act which reads as follows—

Here again the privilege of the council of a university is seemingly transferred into foreign hands. Finally, it is necessary to point out that visiting lecturers, post-graduates and other non-registered persons practising the teaching of surveying may, in terms of section 15 of the Land Survey Act, be guilty of an offence and subject to a fine of R500 or imprisonment. This places a university in even further difficulties because the university may have on its staff not only a person who is teaching subjects related to the degree of B.Sc. in land surveying, but also possibly a land surveyor who was fully qualified in another country as a land surveyor but does not practise as a land surveyor in South Africa and therefore is not required to register. There may consequently be some doubt as to whether such a person, who cannot be registered here, can continue to teach at such a university. It must now be clear, from what the hon. member for Wynberg and I have said, that these are the difficulties relating to universities as such.

I consequently do not think that the other point in regard to section 3 should be treated at all lightly, and I think the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South has seen the point as well. I regard it as unthinkable that a council can have a resolution passed by three-quarters of its members and thereby bind the entire council to such a resolution when the rest of the council has not even received notice of what the resolution is about Let me give an example. Let us say that it is known that a quarter of the council are opposed to a certain policy or a certain decision to be made affecting all land surveyors. The other three-quarters of the council may then get together and pass a resolution without regard to the other quarter of the council, thereby binding the entire council. With the greatest respect, this is unheard of in any sphere of practice. This is actually how this legislation is drafted, but I cannot think that this is really the intention, and since I do not believe this to be the intention, I am sure the hon. the Minister, realizing this, will accept an appropriate amendment during the discussion of the relevant provision in the Committee Stage.

Mr. Speaker, I have listened with great interest to the reaction of the hon. member for Hillbrow and the hon. member for Wynberg to this amendment. Before replying to it, I should like to thank the hon. member for Pretoria West for his very interesting treatise on land surveyors. You know, Sir, he is our surveyor-advocate, or advocate-surveyor—I do not know which one is the most important and should be put first.

Definitely the surveyor.

For the purposes of this discussion, I shall say “surveyor-advocate”. I found it a great pleasure to listen to his historical account of Graaff-Reinet and I want to thank him for it.

Let me say at the outset that the amendments contained in this Bill have been introduced at the instigation of the council. I cannot believe that the Central Council of Land Surveyors would request such a thing

Some members of the council knew nothing about it.

Mr. Speaker, that hon. member could have spoken if he had wanted to. Why does he conduct a conversation with me now? He should have risen when he had the chance. I cannot understand why the hon. members opposite see such a lot of difficulties, for in my humble opinion the amendment with regard to the word “practise” has been introduced for the specific purpose of helping to solve certain problems which existed in the profession. Our information indicated, for example, that problems could arise with regard to the work performed by people engaged in administrative duties. These amendments are being proposed specifically in order to help them.

As far as the universities are concerned, I want to say that although I am no lawyer, I believe that a university is surely entitled to employ anyone, whether he is registered or not. I want to concede to the hon. members that some universities have laid down the requirement that land surveyors who teach land surveying must be registered. However, the fact is that if such a lecturer does his work in an office or in a lecture hall at such a university, he must be registered for the purposes of the word “practise” because the requirements of the Act must be applicable to him as well. I do not want to go to deeply into the legal aspects of the matter, because I know too little about them. However, plain common sense tells me that those hon. members are imagining difficulties where none exist.

We are not the ones who are doing that.

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. the Deputy Minister whether any of the universities, the University of Pretoria, of the Witwatersrand, of Natal or of Cape Town, was consulted about this proposed legislation?

I cannot reply to that…

That is bad.

Wait a minute! The hon. member is speaking too soon. I cannot say whether the law advisers consulted them. As far as the department is concerned, I can say that the universities were not consulted, mainly because the universities are not directly affected and because each university has its own legislation in which it may provide what it chooses to, with regard to teaching staff as well. The hon. member for Wynberg asked me a question, but now he is not showing me the courtesy of listening to it He is talking to another member.

I did listen.

There is just one more question to which I want to reply. It is in connection with the meetings.

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. the Deputy Minister a question?

If the hon. member does not mind, I just want to finish this point first. The clause concerned provides quite clearly: “A resolution of the council …” What does that imply? Plain common sense tells me once again that in referring to a resolution of the council, one implies that the whole council is involved. In other words, if a resolution is adopted by way of correspondence and all the members of the council have not been informed of that resolution which has been adopted, that resolution will be invalid in any case, even though it has been approved by two-thirds of the council, because it is expressly provided that it must be a resolution of the council, a council established in terms of this Act. That is what my common sense tells me; I do not know what the lawyers say.

Where hon. members have certain misgivings about the position of the universities and about the consultation there has been with the universities in this connection, I want to promise that we shall look at these misgivings and that we shall consult the law advisers about them. I want to make this promise and I shall keep my word. If the law advisers consider it advisable that the position of the universities, to which hon. members referred, should be defined in this legislation, I shall see to it that this is done. I want to give hon. members this undertaking. Furthermore, I want to thank hon. members for the thorough study they made of this legislation and for their contributions to the debate.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

The Bill under consideration proposes the amendment of provisions of each of the Acts applicable to the four universities for Blacks. Because the university Acts are largely the same, it follows that the wording of the proposed amendments, too, will mostly be identical, and for that reason I shall not explain every amendment individually, but I shall elucidate the underlying principles of the identical clauses together.

The amendments proposed by clauses 1, 6, 11 and 16 do not mean that the reality of ethnic variety is being lost sight of or disregarded. This variety and the resistance to domination of one nation by another is fundamental to the desire for self-determination. This is associated with the desire of various Black States to obtain their own institutions for university training. However, the fact remains that this ideal cannot soon be realized for every one of them. Therefore the same universities for Blacks will have to continue serving the students of various ethnic groups.

A blanket authority has already been given for Black students from abroad and South West Africa to be admitted to any of the Black universities. As is already the case at the Medical University of Southern Africa, the proposed amendment will mean that the other universities for Blacks will now also serve all Blacks and not only specific ethnic units. Incidentally, this is not an entirely new principle, and for the information of hon. members it should be mentioned that in the case of the Agricultural Faculty at the University of Fort Hare and in respect of pharmacy training at the University of the North, it was decided upon the introduction of courses a few years ago to “open” them to all Black students.

With the progress that has been made in the development of self-governing ethnic units, the stage has now been reached where it can be left to the universities for Blacks themselves to arrange and develop their activities in such a way as further to enrich, spiritually and materially, the national life of those ethnic units for which they were originally instituted.

As far as the composition of universities councils is concerned, provision is being made in clauses 2, 7, 12 and 17 for preventing members of the university staff from being elected as members of the council by the convocations. All teachers who hold permanent positions on the establishment are members of the convocations. Provision already exists for two members of the senate, and in the case of Zululand, three members of the senate, to be elected as members of the council by the senate. Hon. members will agree with me that considering the fact that the university councils are bodies entrusted with the control, management and executive power of the university, it must be regarded as an undesirable practice to allow further members of the university staff to be elected as members of the council.

Clauses 3, 8, 13 and 18 provide for a university also to register a student for a shorter period than a year of study. This means that they will be able to follow a semester system in general or in respect of certain courses. Furthermore, it is being provided that students who do not comply with the prescribed minimum study requirements for the continuation of their studies may be refused admission to a subsequent study year or semester.

Therefore, students who do not make the grade and who do not succeed in complying with the minimum requirements of study for a semester can have their registrations cancelled, and such a student will consequently be sent home. This provision will prevent an unnecessary waste of time and money. I may just mention that the unit cost of the universities for Blacks, not including the Medical University, amounted to approximately R3 026 for 1977.

Clauses 4, 9 and 14 of the Bill are intended to remove the prohibition on the admission of White students to the Universities of Fort Hare, Zululand and the North. No such prohibition exists in the case of the Medical University of Southern Africa.

Before the universities became academically independent in 1970, and while they were still offering the courses and examinations of the University of South Africa, an arrangement existed in terms of which White staff enjoyed certain study benefits such as a rebate on class fees and so forth. After university status was conferred on these institutions, these benefits fell away. Because it is customary for staff to receive study benefits at their universities, it has been decided to make a concession in this respect such as applies in the case of the Universities of Durban Westville and the Western Cape. The primary objective in repealing section 21 of the various Acts is to accommodate White lecturers in respect of advanced post-graduate study.

As a result of the proposed amendments in clauses 1, 6, 11 and 16 and the proposed repeal of the prohibition on the admission of Whites, the admission of persons other than those for whom the university concerned was instituted is further regulated in clauses 5, 10, 15 and 19. It is provided that any person who is not a Black may be admitted with the permission of the Minister and on such conditions as he may determine. This permission can also be withdrawn by the Minister if the conditions imposed are not complied with.

Clause 20 provides for the establishment of institutes at the Medical University of Southern Africa. Research institutes are being envisaged, especially with regard to postgraduate fields of study.

Clause 21 contains the short title.

With this I shall conclude, and I trust that I can rely on the support of all the hon. members for the proposed Bill, also in view of the explanations I have just given.

Mr. Speaker, we have listened to the hon. the Deputy Minister with more than usual interest, interest not only in the Bill before us, but more than usual interest in the fact that this Deputy Minister himself is proposing this Bill. We are going to support the Second Reading.

Normally this would not be the occasion for a speech of any length, but I feel that I simply cannot let this opportunity go by without commenting on what I believe is a very significant milestone in Government thinking. This is not an unimportant measure. I think it does represent a very major change in the thinking of the present Government. In fact, it represents a major retreat from the principle of rigid, compulsory ethnicity in South Africa. It represents an advance towards accepting the principle of voluntary association for which we in these benches stand. We in the official Opposition have always held the view that to recognize the fact that there are different ethnic groups in South Africa, in a plural society, ethnic groups with different backgrounds, different cultures and different languages, is one thing, but to enshrine that ethnicity in separate watertight compartments to which individuals are locked compulsorily and in respect of which the whole infrastructure of Government and administration is bound, is another thing. However, here we have a situation which is a major change as far as the Government is concerned. The hon. the Deputy Minister has dealt with this as though it is a normal piece of legislation. He was not here, but I was here way back in 1959, when we debated the Extension of University Education Bill. Then speaker after speaker on the Government side, even the then Minister of Bantu Education, came forward and stressed the need in the whole question of university thinking for people who were not White to have their education based on ethnic lines. That means they had to be locked into ethnic compartments. It is a very interesting situation. In this respect I want to refer to what the then Minister of Education, Arts and Science said here in the House, on 8 April 1959 (Hansard, Vol. 100, col. 3171)—

That was the tenor of the remarks which came from Government benches in 1959.

Mr. Speaker, may I put a question to the hon. member?

No, let me continue with my speech. [Interjections.] I go further. In the same debate, on 9 April 1959, the then Minister of Bantu Education said the following (Hansard, Vol. 100, col. 3265)—

He goes on to say—

So one can go on throughout the debates of 1959. Then we come to the University College of Fort Hare Transfer Bill of 1969. Here we have the same thing.

First of all, I am sorry that the hon. the Minister of Indian Affairs is not in the House now, because there is an aside here in which the then Minister of Bantu Education deals directly with the then hon. member for Yeoville, Mr. S. J. Marais Steyn. This is what the Minister said (Hansard, Vol. 100, col. 4444)—

This is an aside. Now, quite obviously the hon. the Minister of Indian Affairs—then the hon. member for Yeoville—has had some influence in the party to which he now belongs, because he has apparently persuaded them to support these measures. [Interjections.] I must say, however, that the present hon. member for Yeoville has been consistent throughout. [Interjections.]

The then Minister of Bantu Education went on to say (Hansard, Vol. 100, col. 4445)—

He went on to say—

And so it goes on. Throughout the debates of 1959 there is emphasis on the whole principle of a very strict and a very rigid ethnicity in Black education facilities. However, I now come to the hon. member …

Mr. Speaker, I want to know from the hon. member for Musgrave whether he would concede that because of the Government’s attitude in the years he referred to, those universities have now become established as basic universities for the Zulu, the Xhosa and the other respective Black ethnic groups?

Mr. Speaker, whether they have been established or not, is not the principle which is under discussion now. The fact is that the Government is retreating from that principle. The Government is retreating from the principle of upholding the need for a Xhosa institution with Xhosa manners, Xhosa customs, etc., and that the Government is now passing legislation which will allow other ethnic groups to attend those same universities. [Interjections.]

Do you disapprove of it then?

I am approving of it I am approving of the change. However, I still maintain that one must draw attention to the fact that this is a very significant change on the part of the Government. This is some recognition on the part of the Government to accepting the principle of voluntary association, a principle for which we on this side of the House stand.

I want to refer back again to previous debates here in the House. In this respect I want to quote the hon. member for Rissik. I want to refer to what he said here in the House when the University of Fort Hare Bill was debated on 25 March 1969. Here we find exactly the same sort of argument (Hansard, Vol. 26, col. 3181)—

So one can go on quoting extensively from the speeches of hon. members opposite during those years. However, the hon. the Deputy Minister himself, in answer to the hon. member for Pinelands, said, on 2 June 1978, with reference to a speech he had held at Stellenbosch (Hansard, 1978, col. 8321)—

He went further and as an authority for this, quoted the late Dr. H. F. Verwoerd, who on a particular occasion said—

Just after that, reacting to an interjection, he said—

Mr. Speaker, nobody can persuade me that what we have before us in this Bill this afternoon is not a movement away, very far away indeed, from the principle enunciated by this hon. Deputy Minister in this very House only last year. [Interjections.]

It is a retreat.

It is a retreat. It is a retreat from rigid ethnicity. They are beginning to see the light, I hope. [Interjections.] However, one wonders why this is so. Why the change? Why, after 20 years, is the Government suddenly seeing the light and realizes that some change is necessary? That is because there have been circumstances, changing circumstances around South Africa, and it may be that the Government is contemplating some sort of university for the population of Soweto. How are they going to apply strict ethnicity in a place like the city of Soweto? How are they going to do it? It may be too that they have some regard to some of the problems they had in the past with some of the other institutions. I want to quote from the Snyman Report, which is the report of the Commission of Inquiry into Certain Matters Relating to the University of the North, a report tabled some years ago. It states on page 28—

This is therefore adequate proof, and as one goes through the report, one finds reference, again and again, to some form of rigid ethnicity apart from that applying to foreign students. The fact is that the ethnic principles being applied to the admission of students to the University of the North added to the resentment of the students at that institution.

On page 151 the commission reports as follows—

The Government has perhaps learned something from this sort of evidence from one of their own commissions.

On page 158 the commission reports—

The University of Fort Hare Act and other Acts were introduced 20 years ago, if one goes back to 1959, or let us say 10 years ago if one only wants to go back to 1969. Perhaps the Government has by now seen the light, but at what cost to South Africa? Why has it taken them so long to learn the lesson which was preached to them time and time again during those debates in which they were warned that to try to create separate, ethnic, compartmentalized universities for Black people would cause difficulties and fermentation in South Africa. As I say, they have wasted at least 10 years, probably 20 years. They could, however, have had universities which would have been far more acceptable to the majority of Black people and which would not have made the fact so obvious that there were differences in South Africa and would have provided a far better form of university education for the people concerned, with a far greater recognition of the diversity which is part of South Africa.

Let me say that we shall support the Second Reading because we believe that at last the Government is beginning to move towards accepting the principle of voluntary association.

Mr. Speaker, we have had another repetition today of the usual conduct of the official Opposition in this House. In the debate on the Second Reading the hon. member for Musgrave gave his support to the principle of the Bill and we are grateful to him for that. However, the hon. member subsequently began behaving in this House like a cat with seven tails in regard to the so-called statement that through this legislation we have ostensibly deviated from policies and principles. However, this is a very clear admission by the hon. member that he has totally failed to understand the amendment in the legislation. In the course of my speech I shall attempt to point this out to the hon. member and to convince him if at all possible.

I want to state clearly that there is not a single member of the Government that has ever maintained that the NP is a party which stagnates or stands still. We are quite prepared to change and adapt. The basic difference, however, lies in the fact that when we adapt, we do not give up any principles. That is what hon. members of the Opposition are unable to understand. [Interjections.] I hope the hon. members in his party will now also have a better understanding of the policy of the NP after he quoted repeatedly from the Hansard of various years, for which I should in fact thank him. On this side of the House, of course, that is old news, but I just hope that by this time the hon. member has a better understanding of this.

I also want to say that the hon. member for Klip River is quite correct. The fact that the NP already adopts the standpoint with regard to universities has contributed to the fact that we have such national or State universities today. I want to know from the hon. member for Musgrave whether he has any objection to our having three Black universities as well as the Medical University of Southern Africa in terms of the provisions of the legislation. Does the hon. member object to that? [Interjections.] The hon. member for Musgrave refused to reply to that and he said that that was not relevant to this legislation. I want to maintain that it is most definitely relevant because that is what this legislation is about. In the course of my speech I hope to be able to raise a few other matters as well.

The laws relating to these three universities for Blacks, and the one on the Medical University of Southern Africa, are in my opinion largely similar. Each of these three universities serves a specific national unit. This is in line with the indisputable fact of the concept of national diversity. Indeed, it is only due to the practical considerations and problems that the endeavour of the various Black peoples to have their own universities has not yet been realized. Clear evidence of this is, inter alia, the fact that Bophuthatswana has already appointed a university council, although they do not yet have a university. In my opinion this attests to the fact that these separate Black peoples take an interest in their own nationally oriented universities: That has been the standpoint of the NP over the years and it still is.

However, to the extent that the Black States accept responsibility, the Black universities will serve the citizens of the various dependant States. To make it unnecessary for the Acts to be changed every time a State becomes independent, is it necessary to effect the amendments in clauses 1, 6, 11 and 16 of the amendment Bill. Provision is made in these clauses for the Black universities to serve every Black person. As the hon. the Deputy Minister indicated, this is definitely not a new principle. At present the Black universities may admit Black students from the outside world with the approval of the hon. the Minister. The amendment that is now being effected places the responsibility for the admission of Black students squarely on the shoulders of the council of that particular university. This of course should not give rise to the idea that the Black university in question will lose the nature and character it has acquired by virtue of the national unit it has served up to this stage. Indeed, such a university will continue to serve these different national units and to develop further the nature and character that it has built up for those specific national units that it serves. In practice I foresee that other Black students who will now obtain the right to enroll at those Black universities in accordance with these amendments will only obtain admission if there are adequate facilities for them once provision has been made for and admission granted to the groups served by those universities right from the outset.

The provisions of clauses 2, 7, 12 and 17 seek to prevent members of the lecturing staff from being elected as council members by the convocation. The reason for this is obvious. Every lecturer who is appointed to a permanent post at a university is a member of the convocation, but at the same time the legislation provides that the senate may nominate two members of the council. This would therefore mean that some of these Black universities could obtain four members of staff as representatives on the council were it not for the limiting provisions of clauses 2, 7, 12 and 17. Some universities will even be able to have five representatives on the council.

Then, too, one must bear in mind that the various national units served by a specific university also have the right to nominate a representative to the council. There is no provision in the Act to the effect that such a representative may not also be a member of staff. This means that between 25 and 50% of the council members could be from the ranks of the lecturing staff. I am convinced that hon. members will understand that it would be totally undesirable if this were to be permitted. Indeed, it can never be a sound principle that the council to which the control and management and executive authority of such a university is entrusted could be comprised of so many members of staff. Indeed, my argument is that the aim of having the convocation represented on the council is specifically to involve former students in the management of such a university and to give them a say. When this matter is discussed it is important to note that a Black university requested this limitation itself. All agreed unanimously that this amendment relating to the restriction on members of the convocation be effected in the legislation.

Clauses 3, 8, 13 and 18 of the Bill provide that a university can enroll a student for a shorter period than a study year. This provision is in accordance with the arrangements in regard to White students as contained in section 10(2) and (3) of the Universities Act, Act No. 61 of 1955. The value and need for such a provision is obvious. This provision is particularly necessary in the light of the so-called semester courses offered nowadays at almost all universities. Clauses 3(b), 8(b), 13(b) and 18(b) of the Bill also provide that a student who does not comply with the minimum study requirements for the continuation of his studies may be refused admission to a further period of study or study year. I argue that this is a very sound principle, a principle, indeed, that is very stringently applied by the White universities, whether by way of legislation or on a basis of regulations issued by the universities concerned. This is an essential and sound principle because particularly in the times we are living in, problems are being experienced with the tremendous expense involved in university studies. The latest figures at my disposal indicate that the unit cost per student, excluding capital expenses, are as follows at the Black universities: Fort Hare, R2 708 per annum; the University of the North, R3 227 per annum, and the University of Zululand, R3 496 per annum, as against a unit cost of R2 200 per annum for a White student. Earlier, the hon. the Minister stated by way of a reply to a question that the corresponding figure for Coloured students was R1 909 per annum. It should be noted that when reference is made to the unit cost which it costs the State per student, the expense incurred by the parents of such a student or a student himself in regard to board, books and so on is not taken into account. Therefore it is a very costly matter for a student to study at a university. That is why limiting measures as contained in the legislation are a very sound arrangement for all students, at whatever university they may be studying. If one takes into account the number of manhours lost by our country, expressed in money value, as a result of students who are not successful in their studies—irrespective of the university at which they study—it is a vast sum. There is another very important principle involved here, and that is that our country does not only need people with very sound academic qualifications—although it is indeed necessary that we have such academics—it also needs people with technical training who are career orientated. In this regard I could mention the various courses being offered at Technicons nowadays. I wish to indicate hereby that such restrictions, such as those I have mentioned, can also have the effect that after matriculation, students need not necessarily find their way to a university but could go to a technicon or technical college where they could equip themselves at a technical level and subsequently do very good work for their country.

Clauses 4, 9 and 14 of the Bill lift the prohibition on admission of White students to Black universities, whereas clauses 5, 10, 15 and 19 clarify the arrangements relating to the admission of persons other than those for whom the university in question was established. The hon. member for Musgrave found pleasure in this because according to him the NP was now supposedly deviating from its principle and policy by lifting the restriction on the admission of a White student to a Black university. However, the circumstances must be considered. During his Second Reading speech the hon. the Deputy Minister pointed out very clearly that the lifting of this restriction was aimed chiefly at affording the opportunity to White staff working at the Black universities to undertake advanced post-graduate study in particular at these Black universities, with—and this is important—the resultant study advantages for those lecturers; advantages enjoyed by all lecturers at the universities at which they work. What were the circumstances, however? When these universities still fell under the University of South Africa, the White lecturers at the Black universities obtained the right to advance post-graduate study at the University of South Africa, with specific study benefits in regard to finance and so on. However, after the Black universities obtained their independence, the lecturers were deprived of this privilege. In the nature of the matter it is necessary and fair that an arrangement now be made in accordance with which the White lecturers at Black universities may continue their post-graduate study at the universities where they are employed. This is now being taken totally out of context by the hon. member for Musgrave, as if there is a total deviation from the principle applied up to now. Even since 30 May 1978 it has been possible for Whites to be admitted to Medunsa with ministerial permission. The amendment in this Bill provides further that ministerial permission, on conditions set by the Minister, is also necessary for the admission of Whites who wish to study at Black universities. It is also provided that permission granted by the Minister on specific conditions may be withdrawn at any time if the student in question does not comply with the conditions set him on his admission. In this way, the practice at Black universities is being brought into line with that which applies at White, Coloured and Indian universities. The practice is only being brought into line; there is no deviation from principle.

It must also be stressed that there is no deviation whatsoever from the recognition of the indisputable fact of national diversity and the concept of ethnicity in this regard. These principles are unaffected. What we have here is merely an effort to be more practical by meeting essential needs without giving up a principle, and in doing so we are by no means in bad company as regards this standpoint which the NP has held over the years and still holds. I want to quote what two gentlemen from America, Glazer and Moynihan, had to say in their book Beyond the Melting Pot—

Ethnicity and race dominate the city more than ever seemed possible in 1963.

They went on to say—

I also wish to refer to what Chief Minister Sebe said in his speech at Potchefstroom on 19 September 1977. He said, inter alia, that White, Black and Coloured people in South Africa would never change their colour and that all groups would do everything in their power to preserve their own identity. He also pointed out in the course of his speech that the outside world was guilty of an error of reasoning—and I quote—

That is what Sebe said. I could quote the words of various people to stress that these concepts of national diversity and the pursuit of the preservation of ethnicity is an aim of these Black leaders and that they would like to implement it, not only in their primary and secondary education, but also in their tertiary education, viz. at the universities. True to that principle which the NP has upheld from the outset, this party is continuing to put these changes into effect.

I want to point out that all the amendments in this Bill are being effected at the request of one or other of the Black universities and with the unanimous permission of the councils and principals of all Black universities. I could refer to various statements indicating that the Black leaders and the Black educationists welcome this system and this policy and that they would like us to develop it. As already mentioned, it is still the predominant endeavour of these Black leaders to obtain their own universities, but due to the various practical problems, of which the financial problem is a very important one, it cannot be realized at this point, and consequently it is realistic to make certain arrangements in the interum in order to ensure maximum efficiency and satisfaction. That is what is contained in this Bill. Therefore the Opposition need not try to make a song and dance about a principle being sacrificed, because what is happening here is that the Government is prepared to give realistic consideration to the needs and to meet them, to the advantage of the groups to whom we should like to be of service without sacrificing certain fundamental principles underlying the survival of the Whites, the Coloured people and the Blacks. In that spirit I take great pleasure in supporting this Bill.

Mr. Speaker, in his speech the hon. member for Musgrave used some very hard words about the Bill and then said that he would support it I intend to say some very kind words about the Bill, but I am going to oppose it I wish to motivate this by moving as an amendment—

The hon. member for Virginia, who has just sat down, has attempted to say to us that in fact no change in principle is involved and that this Bill is merely a continuation of the old policy of the NP. If that is so, one can only say that the principles on which the NP is founded must be elastic in the extreme, because in this Bill there are some quite clear departures from the attitudes adopted by the NP in the old days. One of the problems of that party is that they are tending to forget their own past and history. That is what is happening. They are very busy trying to evolve away from all the things that happened in the past. They are caught up, however, in the NP politics of yesterday. The trouble is that they themselves are losing sight of what the initial motives were behind the creation of the separate colleges. I welcome this move. It is with joy that we notice that our friends are beginning to see the light [Interjections.] That is how we feel. We are very pleased to see that the hon. members over there are at last beginning to see the light; but I want to warn them that sooner or later the elastic is going to snap. They cannot go on in that way, adapting, changing and muttering away as they do continually and pretending that this is not a departure from the old things they have stood for all the years we have known the NP.

I welcome the changes incorporated in the Bill. I think that the provision in terms of which all Blacks can attend any of the universities for Blacks is the most common sense thing that has been done in this field for a very long time, because we have to bring about some kind of rationalization. University education for Blacks as well as Whites is today so expensive that we simply have to accept that we shall have to come to a basic new understanding of how a university operates and that, as has been mentioned earlier on, we shall have to concentrate people in fewer schools—the School for Agriculture at the University of Fort Hare is a case in point—because of the enormous costs involved. In view of the small numbers of people attending Black universities, we shall have to specialize. I should like to think—if I am totally wrong, the hon. the Deputy Minister must tell me—that this enabling measure shows that the Government and the department are beginning to think in the direction of specialization.

I want to say that our party is founded entirely on the recognition of the ethnic group as the basic building block of the new society we hope to build in South Africa. However, opportunities must be created for rationalization in this system. The proposed section 2, as contained in clause 1 of the Bill, which allows Blacks from other national units or identity groups to attend any of these universities, we regard as being entirely rational and reasonable.

I have a basic problem with the Government, the hon. the Deputy Minister and this Bill. The proposed section 22, as contained in clause 5 of the Bill, and other clauses deal with the fact that Whites can now be admitted to these universities. The hon. the Deputy Minister was at pains to explain that this is primarily intended to enable the White teaching personnel at those universities to attend classes at those universities. I want to say again that we see these universities as the very basis of cultural pluralism. That is what these universities are to the people whom they serve. There is no doubt about it I should like to ask the hon. the Deputy Minister why it is that he cannot trust the duly constituted council of the university to allow White people to attend that university without having to apply to the hon. the Minister for permission. The very basis of the whole existence of these groups of people is primary, secondary and tertiary education. The whole of their cultural movement comes to flower in the university. One of the most important functions of the council of the university, in terms of that ethnic group to which the university is allied, is to see that the cultural identity and life of that community is not affected by the introduction of huge masses of other people who might tend to lead it in another direction. I do not believe that there would be an immense flood of White students into these universities. I think it might well happen that there would be a small number of students who are particularly interested in the literature, the culture and the activities of, say, the Xhosa group or the Zulu group at Ngoya. It would be people who would go there because they could drink at the original source of the Xhosa or the Zulu culture. Surely the hon. the Deputy Minister can see my point that the council which is constituted in terms of the Act and is careful to protect the identity of that particular university, should be allowed to decide who should enter the university and who should not? I think it would be a gesture of confidence on the part of the hon. the Deputy Minister in the people concerned if he were to say that they could have what we regard as being one of the hallmarks of university autonomy, i.e. the right to admit those people whom they wish to admit to their university. Let me say further that in the course of time and as things are projected in our country, these universities will move into the hands of people who have become independent, or autonomous, or whatever you would like to call them. I am quite certain that at that time, when the Minister’s hand is removed from the admission of Whites to these universities, they will exercise the power that they will get in an extremely responsible fashion.

My problem is that I do not know whether it is competent to move an amendment in the Committee Stage to this clause, because it may be destroying one of the principles of the Bill. That is a matter which we shall still have to take up. I have not yet made up my mind about that one yet. However, I would like to think that the hon. the Deputy Minister would indicate that at least he is in agreement with me when I say that the council is a body of people who could be trusted. The hon. the Deputy Minister could explain to me if there is an administrative problem and that this cannot be done for one or other reason— something which I cannot see. I await with interest the answer which he might give me, because I believe we are being extremely reasonable in asking for it. Our motivation in opposing the Bill is not intended to block the progress of the Bill or the progress that is being made, but rather to point out to the Government and to help them to take the next step which we believe they ought to be taking. I really believe we are stuck fast with something which is still a relic of the past, and it is time that we come along and snip the elastic of which the hon. members opposite are made.

We are totally in favour of the question of tightening up the administration of the universities, the admission of students to the universities and all the technical details relating to that I think the hon. member for Virginia made a very valid point indeed when he said that more attention should be given— as I understood him—to the question of admissions to universities, that people should not merely accept that a university is their right or that they should not accept that they ought to go to university. The university has become a snob symbol. Our community here, in common with other communities in South Africa, is reaching the stage where we are becoming overloaded with people with university qualifications, some of whom may only just have qualified—while we are short of qualified people in all the technical fields which are just as challenging, just as demanding and probably even more vital to the country in which we live today and the state of development it is undergoing than the qualifications that are produced by our universities. I agree entirely with the hon. member for Virginia that that is something we ought to consider. The fact that a university education has become a kind of snob symbol is something which I believe is wrong, and I think we should have a very hard look at it indeed.

I hope the hon. the Deputy Minister will accept that we oppose the Bill with the very best of motives and that we believe it to be a Bill which at last is beginning to move away from a lot of the thinking of the past. But at the same time we believe that the Bill is not giving the power to the council that it ought to have, power which the Government would give it if it had the confidence which we believe it should have in that council.

Mr. Speaker, we have the ironic situation in this House today, that the party that is diametrically opposed to the ideological pole of this side of the House is supporting this legislation, whereas the party in the middle of the spectrum opposes the legislation. The only explanation I can find for that, is that although up to this day the hon. member for Musgrave and his party in fact reject the entire principle of the existence of Black universities, they are now supporting the legislation because a few Black universities themselves asked for this change in the existing legislation. I want to make the statement that if that party and their kindred spirits had been in power in this country for the past 30 years there would not have been any such thing as a Black university in our country.

I want to agree with the hon. member for Virginia that this is not really a difference in principle, a change in policy. I greatly enjoyed listening to the extracts from the 1959 speeches by the then Minister of Bantu Administration and Development and the hon. member for Rissik, which the hon. member for Musgrave quoted, because what was quoted was standpoints on principle adopted by this side of the House which still apply today. At the University of the North, for example, it has long been an accepted arrangement that other national groups may be admitted to that university. What has happened, however? Looking at the fine annual report by the Rector of the University of the North, we find that in the nature of the matter, what happened is that of the more than 2 000 students who have enrolled this year, 598 are North Sotho-speaking, 516 or 28,43% are Tswana-speaking, the South Sotho represent 12%, the Tonga 8%, the Venda, 7%, the Xhosa, 3%, the Zulu only 2% and the others only 1,76%. This, therefore, means that more than 72% of the enrolled students have come from our three northern homelands, Lebowa, Gazankulu and Vendaland.

As was the case with this nation in this country as well, each Black nation in Southern Africa will strive in the future to establish its own tertiary educational institutions because it is an issue of sound educational principles. It comes from the people for the people and the issue here is not one of apartheid or separate development. The question could rightly be asked: Why are there English-language and Afrikaans-language universities in our country today? Education does not simply means learnedness; it is also a process of shaping and polishing in accordance with the tradition and the world view of that nation to be served by the institution in question. I want to stress once again that if the official Opposition were in power, there would not have been any such universities as the University of the North. There would not have been people like Prof. Kgware or Prof. Van der Ross who are rendering service of incalculable value to their respective national groups. After all, it was the kindred spirits of the official Opposition that spoke disparagingly in previous debates about so-called “bush colleges” as a sort of second-class institution. For example, in 1976, when the legislation concerning the Medical University of Southern Africa was being discussed here, the hon. member for Houghton accused the Department of Bantu Administration and Development of wanting to establish a kind of second-class university or to make of the university a kind of modified high school.

Mr. Speaker, at this stage I should like to move—

Agreed to.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

Agreed to.